Saturday, September 20, 2025

How not to limit free speech

I am by no means a free speech absolutist.  In an article at Postliberal Order a couple of years ago, I set out the natural law position on the issue, noting that the teleology or final cause of our rational and communicative faculties entails not only a broad range of freedom of expression, but also definite limits.  There can be no natural right to expression that is positively contrary to what is good for us given our nature as rational social animals.  However, that by no means entails that just any old limitation on free speech imposed in the name of a good cause is a good idea, or even justifiable in principle.

I won’t repeat here everything I said in the earlier article, but the relevant principles are as follows.  Natural rights, in general, exist for the purpose of facilitating the realization of the ends toward which our nature directs us.  In the case of our rational and communicative powers, that end is the discovery and dissemination of what is true and good.  We have a natural right to speech that facilitates this end.  And while that entails that there is no right to express erroneous or bad ideas as such, it nevertheless does allow for a wide range of freedom to express even ideas that happen to be erroneous or bad.  The reason is that, given the limitations on our cognitive powers, we are bound to fall into error sometimes, and the normal means of correcting these errors is the give and take of discussion and debate.  Furthermore, those who would censor erroneous and bad ideas are (since they are no less human than anyone else) themselves prone to error, and therefore may end up censoring true and good ideas.

There is a presumption, then, in favor of free expression, precisely because it facilitates the natural end of our rational powers.  However, not all forms of expression are protected by this presumption, because not all forms of expression have anything to do with our rational powers.  For example, pornography does not appeal to our rationality and in no way contributes to discovering truth or to debate by which we might root out error.  It appeals instead to our appetites, and in a way that corrupts them.  In particular, it fosters and even habituates sexual desire that is disordered in its intensity and its objects.  It thereby corrupts sexual morals, and thereby weakens the institution of the family, the foundation of all social order.  Accordingly, pornography is in no way protected by the natural right to free speech.

There are also ideas which not only happen to be erroneous or bad, but have a tendency positively to frustrate the pursuit of truth and the living of good lives.  Examples would be views that deny the very reality of truth or goodness as objective features of the world.  Since the purpose of the right to free expression is to safeguard the pursuit and dissemination of what is true and good, it can hardly protect speech that denies the very reality of the true and the good.  Hence there can be no natural right to promote such ideas.  There may under certain circumstances be good prudential reasons to tolerate them, but not because suppressing them would be inherently unjust.

The case for (certain kinds of) censorship

Which forms of expression should the state prohibit, then?  To start with the least controversial examples, it should prohibit libelous and slanderous speech, and speech that directly incites violence against some individual or group.  

That pornography should be outlawed is now a more controversial claim than it used to be, but it should not be controversial.  From a natural law point of view, this is not a difficult case at all.  Pornography should simply be banned.  To be sure, there are materials concerning which one can make a case for toleration (for example, novels or mainstream movies that are not pornographic works but do have salacious content).  But this is not so where straightforwardly pornographic materials are concerned.  (Naturally, the argument for this claim presupposes the general natural law account of sexual morality.  I’m aware that not every reader will accept that account, but my point is that if one accepts it, together with the natural law account of the foundations of natural rights, the case for outlawing pornography is obvious.  I’ve defended the natural law approach to sexual morality in other writings.)

In a forthcoming article at Postliberal Order, I argue that governments have a right under natural law to prohibit flag burning, understood as a public expression of contempt for one’s country.  On the one hand, such a prohibition in no way frustrates expression of or debate about any idea (since any idea that could be expressed by burning the flag could be expressed instead in words).  And on the other hand, showing such public contempt for one’s country offends against the virtue of piety, and can destabilize the social order by encouraging others to have a similar contempt.  But whether a particular government should actually exercise its natural right to ban this particular form of expression is a matter for prudential judgment and depends on circumstances.

What about the expression of ideas that positively frustrate the pursuit of what is true or good?  Here the clearest cases concern contexts where such ideas might influence the young – who, because they are more ignorant and inexperienced, and governed more by feeling than reason, are least likely to be able to see what is wrong with such ideas.  Hence, consider cognitive or moral relativist theories that deny the reality of truth or goodness as objective features of the world.  Or consider theories that are inherently subversive of the social order and pit one group against another, such as Nazism, Marxism, and Critical Race Theory.  Or theories which promote gravely disordered sexual desires, and thus inculcate sexual vice in the young and destabilize the family.  It is simply common sense that there cannot be a right to teach such ideas to young people, such as high schoolers (let alone even younger children).  The state may and ought to prohibit the dissemination of such ideas in primary and secondary education.

Things are more complicated where higher education is concerned.  Certainly the state should in no way and under no circumstances actively promote such evil ideas in any context, including higher education.  But what about merely tolerating them?  Here there is no “one size fits all” answer, and much depends on the judgment of prudence.  There can be special circumstances where the state has an interest in rooting out such ideas.  For example, you would not want to tolerate having many Critical Race Theorists on the faculties of the military academies, because their ideas are positively subversive of allegiance to the country that warriors are supposed to be protecting. 

The case against (other kinds of) censorship

But policing academia in general is much trickier.  Government regulators are highly unlikely to be sufficiently good judges of ideas, given the people who would be appointing them.  Liberal politicians tend to be suckers for every idiotic academic fad that comes down the pike, while conservative politicians tend to be philistines.  Any regulation of academic discussion coming from either left-wing flakes or right-wing yahoos would be ham-handed at best and do much more harm than good.  Hence in a university context it is, in general, best to combat erroneous ideas through the give and take of free debate.

Something similar can be said of public debate in the world beyond academia, especially in a pluralistic society like the U.S. whose constitution and political culture have long idealized the free exchange of ideas (even if, in practice, not always doing so consistently or well).  When it comes to bad ideas concerning political philosophy, public policy, and the like (as opposed to defamatory speech, incitement to violence, pornographic expression, and the like), it is better to fight them through the give and take of debate rather than through censorship. 

The COVID-19 pandemic vividly illustrated how dangerous it can be for even intelligent and well-informed people with good intentions to try to police such speech.  One side tried, in the name of public health, to shout down critical discussion of policies that imposed severe costs on millions yet whose scientific and moral justifiability was far from certain.  The other side, rightly alarmed at this, overreacted by too willingly embracing crackpot medical ideas and conspiracy theories.  The first side then condemned this overreaction, arrogantly oblivious to its own responsibility for causing it.

In this case, preemptively shutting down debate was especially unreasonable given how poorly understood the virus was at first, and how draconian and untested were the methods employed for dealing with it.  But even in the case of matters that are very well understood, it is generally a bad idea to try to suppress dissent by force of law.  Human beings are, by nature, rational animals.  True, they very commonly use their rational powers badly, and are prone to all sorts of error and irrational thinking.  But because they are rational animals, they are, naturally, prone to accept ideas only when they can see why they are reasonable and have a choice about whether to embrace them.  They do not react well to having forced on them ideas they don’t understand or agree with, even when those ideas happen to be correct and resistance to them is unreasonable.  For the sake of social harmony, then, there is a strong presumption against censoring public discussion and debate over matters of policy, political philosophy, and the like.

In theory, there are cases where this presumption can be overridden.  But I would suggest that a necessary condition for such censorship is that it meets all of the following criteria:

1. It should concern expression that is inherently contrary to the common good, and in particular that attacks the prerequisites of living together as a community of rational animals.

Again, I would argue that examples of expression that meet this condition include: libelous or slanderous speech; the incitement of violence against particular individuals or groups; pornographic expression; direct assaults on the virtue of piety, such as public actions intended to foster contempt for one’s country; ideas that challenge the very reality of truth or goodness; and ideologies that promote social conflict by demonizing entire groups of human beings, or which directly promote grave vices such as sexual immorality.  (This list is meant to be illustrative, not exhaustive.)  As I have said, there may be pragmatic reasons why a government should tolerate such errors, but it cannot be wrong in principle to suppress them.

Now, the point is that these sorts of expression are direct assaults on the good of individuals and societies.  Defamatory speech, by destroying one’s reputation, can make it extremely difficult or impossible to engage in everyday social life (by securing employment, for example).  This is even more obviously true of speech that causes others to live under the threat of violence.  A culture that is so awash in pornography that even children have easy access to it will inevitably inculcate widespread and deeply ingrained sexual vice, which is contrary to both our social nature (since it destabilizes the family) and our rational nature (given that, as Aquinas teaches, sexual vice has an even greater tendency than other vices do to blind the intellect).  The proliferation of ideas that promote hatred of one’s country or of large groups of one’s fellow citizens radically undermines social harmony.  And so on.

Contrast these examples with the following: disagreements over particular policy proposals (concerning taxation, immigration, health care policy, foreign policy, or the like); disagreement with or dislike of some particular individual politician or political party; disagreements about particular moral issues or matters of political philosophy (of the kind that always inevitably arise in political debate, journals of opinion, the classroom, etc.); disagreements about particular matters of empirical fact, concerning current events, history, science, etc.; and so on.

These sorts of disagreements, even when heated, are a normal part of social and political life and in no way intrinsically at odds with the good of individuals or societies.  And even when erroneous opinions about such matters result from outright deception or intellectual dishonesty, they rarely strike at the very roots of the social order.  Moreover, it is in any case simply unrealistic to suppose that government can, in general, effectively separate such lies out from the honest mistakes and exaggerations human beings are commonly prone to.  Hence these are matters where government should not interfere with speech, but rather let error be corrected via the give and take of free debate.

2. It should clearly be motivated by service to the common good, rather than the narrow interests of some particular party or leader.

The point here is that it is not good enough for a policy of censorship actually to have sound reasons in its favor.  It must be motivated by those reasons, and be widely perceived as having such a motivation.  Even the best policy is likely to backfire if it is widely perceived to be motivated instead by corruption or a personal grudge on the part of some leader, or by an attempt by one party or ideology to silence reasonable dissent.

This does not mean that every single citizen has to think the policy has a good motivation.  That would, of course, be an unrealistically stringent standard.  But a critical mass of the population has to be able to see it that way.  Think of the way that, in wartime, the bulk of the population often gives the government the benefit of the doubt where certain censorship is concerned, because it knows that certain matters have to be kept secret for the sake of national security.  Certainly this was true in the days of World War II, for example. 

Of course, things are different now, and distrust of governmental authority is much higher.  But that makes it even more important (not less) for a critical mass of the population to be able to believe that a censorship policy is at least intended to serve the common good rather than some narrow personal or partisan interest.  From the point of view of natural law, the whole point of suppressing certain kinds of expression is to preserve the social order and the common good.  Hence a policy that will, in practice, tend only further to divide an already highly polarized society can hardly be justified on natural law grounds.

For these reasons, even when a policy of censorship has good arguments in its favor, it should in general not be pursued except by leaders known for the utmost probity and statesmanship.  Otherwise it is likely to do more harm than good.

3. It should be calmly and carefully thought out, not impulsive.

Censorship, like war, is so grave in its consequences that even when it is justifiable, it should never be resorted to lightly.  Hence, a policy of censorship should never be implemented except after careful and dispassionate study.  Major events that trigger strong emotions (such as the rapid spread of COVID-19 in early 2020 and the recent assassination of Charlie Kirk) often lead to calls for censorship.  But censorship policies proposed under such circumstances are the least likely to be justifiable, because they result more from emotion than reason.

4. It should as far as possible be implemented in general rules, rather than in ad hoc directives or other exercises of discretionary power.

This condition is a corollary of the second and third conditions.  Where some individual or agency has arbitrary power to censor speech, it is far more likely that such censorship will result from the passions of the moment than careful and dispassionate analysis, and that it will reflect personal or partisan interests rather than be directed to the common good.  There is also the consideration that social order requires predictability, and thus the rule of law rather than governance by whim.

In light of these criteria, what should we think of recent Trump administration policies that have been characterized as exercises in censorship?  The answer is that it depends on which policies we are talking about.  In the case of eliminating federal funding for DEI programs, rooting “woke” ideologies out of the military academies, and the like, I would say that these measures are all justifiable.  One might quibble over details of implementation, but the basic policies are sound, because these ideas are poisonous and divisive and should have no influence on, or support from, government.  

But things are very different with some of what has been said and done over the last couple of weeks, in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s assassination.  Attorney General Pam Bondi has spoken of “going after” those who engage in vaguely defined “hate speech,” and of prosecuting printing businesses that refuse to print Charlie Kirk posters.  While ABC was in my view correct to suspend Jimmy Kimmel for an unjust and inflammatory remark, it did so in part under threat from FCC chairman Brendan Carr, whose action has been compared by Republican Senator Ted Cruz to that of a mafia boss.  President Trump has suggested that because the negative press coverage he has received is in his view excessive, it is “no longer free speech” and “illegal.” 

These remarks and actions are foolish and irresponsible.  They are bad in themselves, because they clearly do not meet the criteria set out in 1- 4 above.  They also threaten to discredit the good things the Trump administration is doing, because they give its enemies ammunition by lending plausibility in the public mind to the tiresome charge of “fascism.” 

Defenders of the administration will point out that left-wingers who promoted “cancel culture,” cheered Trump’s being kicked off of social media, suppressed speech during the pandemic, etc. have little standing to complain.  That is correct.  But it is also irrelevant.  It’s a cliché to say that two wrongs don’t make a right, but it is also true.  Statesmanship requires doing whatever possible to repair social divisions, not exacerbating them further in the interests of getting revenge on those who first caused them.

76 comments:

  1. Well written Article Prof.

    The FCC intervention was not required at all.

    In your opinion would the tolerance for spreading of other faiths besides Catholicism fit somewhere into the tolerance framework you laid out ?

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  2. I'd be interested in your examples of "crackpot medical ideas" as regards covid. I embraced some of them and was found to be quite correct in so doing. Medical science history is replete with "crackpot medical ideas", the rejection of which caused immeasurable harm.

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    1. Would you mind sharing which ideas?

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    2. Anonymous, I agree with you. Its not fair to broadly characterize the objections to the covid public health narrative as "crackpot ideas" as though that's all there was to it, or even that that's what was predominant. Surely Dr. Feser remembers the many medical doctors and scientists who voiced these objections. Its is more fair to say that those in public health squashed all objections not due to the presence of some crazy ideas, but that they squashed all objections due to their being objections, regardless of merit. That's what we observed here in Canada for sure.

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  3. Pam Bondi has been slammed from the right for her "hate speech" and "printing" statements and I believe she has backpedaled. Most everyone thinks Trump is mistaken to keep her on.

    Although it won't satisfy conspiracy theorists, Nexstar publicly denied it was pressured by the FCC:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/nexstar-denies-jimmy-kimmel-suspension-was-due-to-fcc-pressure/ar-AA1MQJkF

    There are FCC rules against distorting the news and this is likely what Carr was referring to:
    https://www.fcc.gov/broadcast-news-distortion

    Statesmanship requires doing whatever possible to repair social divisions, not exacerbating them further in the interests of getting revenge on those who first caused them.

    There is a distinction between what the administration does and what private companies do that I think is not being made here. I doubt "defenders of the administration" think the government should should tell Twitter what to do.

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    1. Bmiller, I agree with you and Ed that Pam Bondi's comments regarding "hate speech" were wrong; and I agree with you that the right slammed her for that (it would be unfair to tar MAGA people with Pam Bondi's comments). Your point about the FCC and Nexstar is a good one also. Several stories from both right and left wing sources indicate that Kimmel planned to double down blaming MAGA, even when it was absolutely clear that the assassin's motive was the opposite of MAGA. Such a speech would clearly violate the FCC guidelines (knowably false and against the public interest) and Nexstar made a reasonable decision not to air that.
      I suspect that this "MAGA are the real threats to free speech" (I do not imply that Ed would say that) is the latest talking point of the left. Victor Davis Hanson points out how the last seven talking points regarding Charlie Kirk's murder (no motive, the gun did it, assassin was MAGA, both sides are guilty, Trump did it, a trans love story, Kirk deserved it) all failed. This one will fail too.

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    2. Nextstar is a politically conservative network. It can deny all it wants. But Trump was pissed by Kimmel and and he and the FCC made it clear he had to go
      https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c87yel3wg "A controversy arose when Carr, the FCC chairman, called for action against Jimmy Kimmel after the late-night host joked about Trump's mourning of Charlie Kirk and appeared to falsely suggest the right-wing influencer's killer was a Trump supporter.

      On Wednesday, in a podcast hosted by Benny Johnson, a long-time collaborator with Kirk's Turning Point organisation, Carr said there were "remedies" the FCC could explore.

      "We can do this the easy way or the hard way," Carr said. "These companies can find ways to change conduct and take action, frankly, on Kimmel or there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead."

      Within hours, Nexstar and Sinclair, two companies that own dozens of local stations across the country affiliated with the ABC network, said they would stop airing Kimmel's programme.

      ABC later confirmed that Kimmel's program would be suspended indefinitely.

      Gomez, the FCC's sole Democratic-affiliated commissioner, issued a statement criticising administration pressure and accusing ABC of "cowardly corporate capitulation".

      "We cannot allow an inexcusable act of political violence to be twisted into a justification for government censorship and control," she said.

      "This FCC does not have the authority, the ability, or the constitutional right to police content or punish broadcasters for speech the government dislikes.

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    3. FCC Broadcast News Distortion? That's been around since the 1960s. Biden could have used that against Fox News and itsa right wing slant. It's being used now to further Trumps authoritarian agenda.
      https://www.techpolicy.press/news-distortion-the-new-fake-news/

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    4. As I mentioned, conspiracy theorists won't believe Nexstar's denial so it won't change their minds.

      I'll just point out that if Nexstar was motivated for suspending Kimmel's show solely because it was a "politically conservative network" it seems they would have done that a long time ago. In fact, if one looks at just the business aspect, reruns of "Celebrity Family Feud" are getting over twice the viewership in that timeslot. So it seems they keep a lowly rated politically left show going in spite of those low ratings.

      For the record, here is Nexstar's original announcement:
      https://www.nexstar.tv/nexstar-abc-affiliates-to-preempt-jimmy-kimmel-live-indefinitely-beginning-tonight/

      Anonymous@September 21, 2025 at 3:24 PM

      The FCC news distortion rule is for licensed, over-the-air broadcasts. That doesn't include cable TV, podcasts, etc. So, no, Biden could not have "used it against" Fox News, nor can Trump "use it against" CNN even in principle.

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    5. From the FCC website: The FCC will only investigate claims that include evidence showing that the broadcast news report was deliberately intended to mislead viewers or listeners. Evidence may include testimony from persons who have direct personal knowledge of an intentional falsification of the news (for example, written or oral instructions from station management, outtakes, or evidence of bribery). Without such documented evidence, the FCC generally cannot intervene. The FCC does not investigate claims of collateral inaccuracy in news reports or differences of opinion over the truth or validity of aspects of a news program.

      The FCC authority appears to be squarely aimed at news programs and I don't know how a talk/variety show which is explicitly produced and advertised as entertainment qualifies as a news program. If you disagree then the exact same standards apply to every bit of false or distorted information made by Hannity on broadcast radio.

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    6. Step2,

      Good point. Hannity is under the FCC broadcast rules and stations carrying him could have their licenses pulled if he they thought that he was provably lying on air.

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  4. You include: “ the incitement of violence against particular individuals or groups”. As we’ve learned in the UK, you have to be very careful about this. Our police have given up policing shoplifting and theft, but are now engaging in witch trials over impure thought. Progressives are all out glorifying the killing of Charlie Kirk and calling for more of the same without consequence. Meanwhile housewives and grandfathers are spending time in jail because they have said fairly innocuous things - or even made jokes about - a group whose characteristics are protected. Our Labour government are now working to ramp up the protection against Islamophobia even further, so that statements that are entirely true about Islam (that it spread through war, the age of one of Mohammed’s wives etc) could become crimes (if seen as contributing to “hostility” “prejudice” etc). I can’t imagine what will happen if they go ahead with this, as it will surely break the system, so I expect they will tone down some of initial proposals.

    Of course you do talk about the balances needed to protect free speech, and I agree that an absolute approach is also wrong, but as soon as you start trying to protect against speech about specific groups or characteristics, it can be a slippery slope that is seen as two tier justice. It would be nice if everyone just treated openly racist or ignorant hate speech as an embarrassing sign of a person being ugly and broken. If we all still shared a common narrative this would be a far healthier way to police such things.

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  5. What about blatantly lying? Not just occasionally saying something false, but what about a consistent pattern of purposefully spreading lies, when there is clear evidence that they are indeed lies?

    Maybe this is another way of implicitly challenging the very reality of truth or goodness, so it could be censored under Professor Feser's criterion No. 1 above.

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  6. As always the great danger of censorship is the censors, the "who" of it. Who are they and whom do they serve? We learned over the last 10 years and more that it was used as a tool to repress and even destroy opposition to corruption. Those in the political sphere most sanctimonious about the need for it are those most likely to use it to crush those who stand in their way. You make a rational case for censorship but sadly men are not angels, and implementing censorship along the lines you describe would require Michael himself. We can discuss theory unto exhaustion but we live in a real, not theoretical, world with real, not theoretical, men.

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  7. This argument seems to be ignoring the fact that social orders (including the one in America) are frequently unjust, and that a speech act can therefore be "subversive of the social order" while also being completely true. I know Dr. Feser (as a conservative Catholic and a Thomist) doesn't recognize this, but early Christianity was blatantly subversive of the social order in which it was born, and nothing could be more subversive than denying the absolute prerogative of the paterfamilias, or denying the lordship of Caesar, or encouraging people to abandon their ancestral religions and worship the One God of Israel instead. I mean, think about the claim that "flag burning, understood as a public expression of contempt for one’s country" should be banned. Is burning a flag so different from refusing to take part in the rituals that guarantee the favor of the gods towards Rome? Would Dr. Feser object to the destruction of idols, which serve an almost identical social and cultural role to national flags? Surely toppling a statue of Odin is just as anti-social as burning a flag. It doesn't take that much thought to realize that impiety towards sacred symbols is often piety towards God or the Truth; it's a recurring theme within the Old and New Testament, in fact.

    Which brings up the problem (which Dr. Feser seems acknowledge) that the people who do the censoring often aren't smart or virtuous enough to tell which idea are subversive of evil and which are merely subversive. Think about how vague and broad the term "woke ideology" is. Sure, it includes such insane ideas as encouraging small children to gender transition, but it also includes many true things that American conservatives simply don't want to believe, mainly historical facts related to the existence, influence, and persistence of racism. It's not just "gender ideology" that triggers conservatives; it's anything that challenges the idea of America's spiritual, moral, and political exceptionalism. That brings us back to flag burning. Most people who burn the US flag are doing so to express criticism of American foreign or domestic policies, often on the basis of America's own professed values. Conservatives only assume that these acts must be motivated by "contempt for one's country" (in an absolute sense) because their own relationship to their country is idolatrous. All this talk about the "social order" is merely a cloak for a visceral emotional reaction, just as a lot of talk about "woke ideology" is a cloak for defending the belief in American exceptionalism. The "common good" of a nation isn't necessarily compatible with justice or truth, given that many nation-states are built on injustice and half-truths.

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    1. Gee Shaggy. Thanks for the lecture on what you think conservatives believe. Maybe its because you're a leftist that thinks like a leftist rather than trying to understand what a conservative like Dr Feser is saying that you say the things you say.

      For instance, I don't think you know what "subversive" means or the difference between committing an overt act and refusing to act. Maybe that's where the confusion lies.

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    2. Thank you for your counterarguments, as always, Thurible.

      What do you think about the idea that early Christianity was not 'subversive of the social order' in an absolute sense (e.g. of the good of man), but was certainly subversive of Caesar? The social order in which something is born seems to me to be generally subordinate.

      This answers some of your objection, though the case of flag burning still remains (as well as Feser's proposal of alternative expression) - it might be the case that someone burns the flag with the intent of upholding/restoring the social order in a more absolute sense, while the conservative may be misinterpreting it as an attack on the social order.

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    3. I refer you to Charles Journet’s discussion of Christian subversion of pagan Rome in volume one of The Church of the Word Incarnate.

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    4. @bmiller

      So I've called gender transitioning "insane" and compared pro-choice activists to the SS, but because I think American conservatives are frequently motivated by an idolatry of country and an uncritical acceptance of a social order which is unjust even by uncontroversial Christian standards (America certainly doesn't come close to the principles of Catholic Social Teaching, to give just one example), I must be a leftist who just can't understand real conservatives. Good luck with that one, Scoob.

      @Anonymous

      That's a thoughtful counterpoint, although I'm not sure you can make such a neat separation based on Dr. Feser's examples. I obviously don't think Christianity would be "subversive" in any possible society, although I can't think of any nation or empire which has actually existed in human history which would not see Christianity as dangerously seditious if it truly understood the nature of Jesus's teaching. I mean, what contemporary "social order" isn't just the worship of Mammon when you look past the rhetoric and see what nations are actually willing to kill and die for? I seem to remember some Jewish troublemaker once saying that we could not serve two masters.

      (I hear he was executed for being a subversive.)

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    5. Shag,

      Since you lumped Dr Feser in the category of "American Conservatives" I have to assume you also are accusing him of being "frequently motivated by an idolatry of country and an uncritical acceptance of a social order which is unjust even by uncontroversial Christian standards". Congratulations on reaching the truth on a couple issues. Now try to show everyone you have the critical thinking skills to realize that accusing people of idolatry and being uncritically accepting of the status quo do not actually demonstrate that you are using critical thinking skills. Also, watch out for those meddling kids.

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  8. Is there any more than a prudential differentiation between the governmental form of a state and the morally desirable state? For instance should Russians in the very last days of the Soviet Union have lobbied for its further reform or for its dissolution altogether? Likewise I often wonder if Socrates did wrong by allowing himself to be executed by a corrupt Athenian state and thus legitimising it.

    In the presence context someone might argue that it would be better for all citizens the United States as it is to dissolve into a league of independent nations based of off former states. This is directly contra the United States as a single state yet does not appear on the same level as the flag-burning example (the latter of course one might argue is violent and disruptive as a public spectacle).

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  9. yes, superficial again.
    the point here is that "hatespeech" and other weaponized concepts, cannot be healed or deleted at your whim, just cause you suffered TDS for 10 years doesnt mean that hatespeech just poped up and concept creep and weaponization is a new thing that you have a chill solution for. no , you are superficial and barely waking up to the culture war / spiritual war .

    to heal a concept in culture is to use it as is, eliminating double standard, so people understand the deeper meaning of morality.

    you fail to realize what is at stake is npc / childrens minds. and allowing one side to fashion weapons and use them while you just call them invalid weapons .. doesnt work. hasnt worked ..

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  10. It may be the first time I can say this, but I disagree. The action does meet the criteria 1 through 4.

    1) The leftist agenda in aggregate is contrary to the common good. They want to destroy American society and they not only show us by their actions, they explicitly tell us that is what they want to do.

    2) If my point above is true, then stopping the left is motivated by service to the common good and not narrow political interest (no matter the size of the ego of the figures involved).

    3) Preserving our culture (instead of just managing its slow destruction) is long overdue. Taking action after decades of tolerance can hardly be described as “impulsive”.

    4) Using general rules instead of discretionary power is great, except when you’re dealing with an ideology that is deliberately subversive of any rules you can make. The buck has to stop somewhere.

    If a person bend on the destruction of our society losses his job, I will not cry over it. And I won't quietly rationalize the slow destruction of our country.

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    1. I don't quite agree with you, but there's some validity here, and I am going to present some added arguments for what you say as well as arguments against.

      If my point above is true, then stopping the left is motivated by service to the common good and not narrow political interest

      It matters how you stop the left, not just THAT you stop them. At the extreme end, doing intrinsically immoral things to stop them must never be the way to go. But there's also imprudent means that aren't that extreme.

      But policing academia in general is much trickier. Government regulators are highly unlikely to be sufficiently good judges of ideas, given the people who would be appointing them.

      Government regulators might be bad at it, but as long as government is in the business of education, they CAN'T not be in the business of deciding who teaches and what they teach. This might be an undefeatable ground for getting government out of education at ALL levels - and even if it's not an absolutely undefeatable ground, it's still a very worthwhile solution to consider. But even if we were to decide, overnight, that government needs to get out of the business, it would still take close to a decade to achieve, and in the meantime you would still have to have government people as deciders on who to employ and what is permissible in the curriculum. Every public university in the country still decides whether X course is taught, and whether Y professor is given a position, etc. This JUST IS selecting some content over other content on behalf of the students, which is a gateway role. You might not want to call it censorship, but conservatives in academia have had 40 years of having to tone down their ideas in order not to be fired, and that's clearly a censorship result.

      That said, virtue is said to lie in the mean, and if you have been at one extreme for a long time, you have to aim in the direction of the opposite mean to hope to move into the center. If schools have been excessively exaggerated in pushing leftism, merely aiming for good standards of criteria 1 - 4 above is not enough under current conditions. Right now academia is controlled by people who think, at the top of their brains, that "censorship = bad" but at the same time also think "Kirk and his ilk should not be allowed to speak". (And they aren't the only ones with these disconnects from reality.) These people can't even tell what following criteria 1 - 4 honestly would look like. If you are in a sport where one team is known to not only break the rules regularly, but to directly try to injure the other teams players: they aren't in it to win (as the rules enjoin) but to simply destroy the opponents. Eventually you have to decide not to engage that team in the sport. In a non-trivial sense, some extreme leftists understanding of fair play and honest debate is so warped that they cannot be trusted to even play the game. And many in charge of academia are in this position. So, in some non-trivial sense, you would have to short-circuit around them by not playing their game, and indeed to take away their game.

      Would this mean censorship of academia by government? In spite of the points I raised above, I don't think it would be prudent, and it would be hard to establish clearly that it is the best course, when IN GENERAL such censorship is a bad idea.

      Charlie Kirk was onto something right when he denigrated colleges: now that primary and secondary education has been dumbed down to propaganda machines, far too many colleges have become finishing schools for turning out graduates who are mouthpieces for the left agenda without having a clue why. It's bad enough that most students in many campuses were violently in favor of Gaza and Hamas, but it is insufferably unacceptable that they could identify neither the "river" nor the "sea" of the slogan "from the river to the sea." Colleges that worked to achieve just this end need not be tolerated.

      Delete
    2. Tony,

      It matters how you stop the left, not just THAT you stop them.

      It will go a long way to prevent immoral and imprudent actions from the right if people of the right would articulate what actions they propose. One gets the impression from many conservative posters that had they been around during the Crusades, they would have wanted each soldier to have a personal umpire chiding them that they swung their sword imprudently. It seems they insist that one side keep following The Marquess of Queensberry Rules while a knife fight is going on. Sooner of later, unless those commentators make practical and effective suggestions, they will be ignored.

      You're a smart guy. Please think about it.

      Delete
    3. "These people can't even tell what following criteria 1 - 4 honestly would look like."
      Far as I can tell, nobody honestly could. The criteria are entirely too vague and open to entirely contradictory interpretation. (Number 2 is even internally question-begging and inevitably performatively contradictory.)

      Delete
  11. Am I missing something or has Ed still not said anything on this blog about Charlie Kirk and his work? Ed has written against critical theory, I and many others have taught against it in classes and lectures, but Charlie Kirk is likely the most influential opponent of this ideology.

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  12. In your judgment, Professor Feser, was the Soviet Union right under natural law to ban the flags of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia? Would a pre-1990 Balt who viewed & treated the USSR as his enemy have been guilty of offenses against piety?

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  13. This argument seems to be ignoring the fact that social orders (including the one in America) are frequently unjust, and that a speech act can therefore be "subversive of the social order" while also being completely true.

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  14. This argument seems to be ignoring the fact that social orders (including the one in America) are frequently unjust, and that a speech act can therefore be "subversive of the social order" while also being completely true.

    It isn't necessarily true that a civil order "being unjust" in some way is sufficient grounds for subversion of that order, and in general, that there is injustice is not sufficient grounds. The specific case you point to is a great example: pagan Rome wanted to force people to sacrifice to idols. Setting aside for this point the fact that for the most part Rome generally left individual subject peoples to worship their own gods and thus it was singling out Christians for unjust persecution on their own standards, still many of the outspoken ruling class felt threatened by the Christian position that only one God can be adored.

    But in historical FACT, Rome changed how it felt about that, WITHOUT bringing down the civic order. Constantine was emperor of an empire before the change, and he remained emperor after. The legions before were the same legions after. The lower magistrates before mostly were the magistrates after, and when they got replaced by Constantine, the new magistrates had the same delegated powers. Emperor Justinian in the 500s took the 12 Tablets of the law and updated them to reflect much of the advance of legal theory and practice since they were first written, but his project was primarily to codify what had been already made law (mostly, in the pagan era) into a coherent whole. There was no revolution against the old civil order, instead a correction of certain grave wrongs WITHIN that order.

    It is a rare case where the old civil order is fundamentally so gravely disordered that tearing it down by revolution is required. Many times God intends that we submit to injustices unless or until they can be lawfully changed, and most times unjust practices or laws can be reformed within the social order. As slavery was ended here within the rule of law. And then Jim Crow laws.

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    1. I'll just point out, that burning a flag is an overt demonstration, symbolic of wanting to overthrow a government. Refusing to take part in a particular government function indicates disagreement with that particular function, not the overthrow of the entire order. As Tony points out, Christians were not subversive of the system as a whole.

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    2. @bmiller

      "burning a flag is an overt demonstration, symbolic of wanting to overthrow a government"

      At the risk of belaboring the point, symbolic acts definitionally lack non-subjective meanings. You may be offended by someone burning a flag, or that may be what you would mean if you were to burn a flag, but to claim that burning a flag has a single, objective meaning is... well, objectively false. Again, there's a long-established history in America of conservatives ignoring the professed purposes of symbolic actions by liberals or leftists and instead projecting their own, more nefarious ones to justify repression. The truth is often politically inconvenient.

      @Tony

      Another historical fact (although one which Christians of a conservative stripe are usually less aware of) is that Christianity significantly compromised its own values as part of "taming" the Roman Empire, and it is certainly the case the Christianity has done so to accomodate itself to the American empire. So who actually won in the end? The same "Christian" empire that built hospitals, rescued foundlings, abolished the absolute power of the paterfamilias, and closed down gladitorial games also executed heretics, launched wars of conquest, abandoned the early Church's economics of communal solidarity (Acts 2:42-46; read Maximus the Confessor if you think the Church Fathers didn't take this stuff literally), and made the Church into a tool of imperial policy. Morever, it's worth remembering that, because there was actually no mechanism for reform within the Roman social order (how can there be in a thoroughly undemocratic society?), it's disingenous to claim that the Christianization of the Roman Empire constitutes a triumph of working within legal means. Constantine was a usurper who killed his way to the throne. So much for legality.

      Delete
    3. Shag,

      I think you are missed my point. You were equating burning the flag in present day America to Christians in ancient Rome refusing to offer sacrifices to Cesar.

      Although I was trying to work with your analogy I no longer think it is even worth considering. America has the concept of separation of Church and State for one thing. No one is compelled to worship anything. Burning a flag is not an act of religious defiance at all so it's apples and oranges.

      Burning a flag is an overt act and not a refusal to do something required by a government. Refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance would be similar to refusing to make a sacrifice to the Emperor if the US did not have separation of Church and State which it does and so the analogy cannot be made.

      Help me understand why you think this is a good analogy.

      Delete
  15. Free speech is speech that you cannot be punished for within the judicial system. The first amendment protects free speech. If a school fires a teacher for making a statement that is free speech but which brings the school into disrepute, that is not a violation of free speech or the first amendment. Someone speaking on a public network with a government license can be fired if that person falls foul of the FCC regulations. That is not a violation of free speech either. The FCC rules could be modified perhaps, but that is a different issue.
    What is happening is that millions of young men and women are having the courage to speak out against the ideologies of the left. The left was losing the battle prior to the death of Charlie Kirk; their loss is accelerating now. I celebrate that!

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    Replies
    1. Tim,
      Your sweeping claims about free speech ignore or misrepresent a recent unanimous SCOTUS case, which overruled lower courts on first amendment grounds to forbid coercion by officials even when based in public safety concerns. National Rifle Association of America v. Vullo (2024) Justice Sotomayor authored the Court's decision, favoring the NRA who was represented by the ACLU, stating that "government officials cannot attempt to coerce private parties in order to punish or suppress views that the government disfavors". They held that impermissible coercion occurs when they engage in conduct that "could be reasonably understood to convey a threat of adverse government action in order to punish or suppress speech".

      Delete
    2. Step2,

      I don't get it. How does a ruling that state officials cannot pressure financial institutions to not do business with a particular political lobbying organization exhibit a case of misrepresentation by Tim in his latest post?

      Delete
    3. Tim, you're construing 'free speech' entirely positivistically here. That makes for a rather shallow and uninteresting discussion.

      Delete
    4. bmiller,
      I wrote ignore first because I thought it was the most likely situation but if he was aware of it his claims would be a misrepresentation. Based on the noted case his statements about how speech is protected by the first amendment is significantly incorrect, i.e. it goes far beyond protection from judicial punishments.

      Delete
    5. Step2,

      I don't know if Tim intended to give an exhaustive account of all possible challenges wrt to the FA, but I doubt that was his intent. It seems was making statements regarding the topics that have been under discussion here. Like FCC rules and what rules apply to teachers. I don't think he mispresented what he discussed, so I think your criticism is of his post is misplaced. You could have added your example without accusing him of ignoring or mispresenting.

      Delete
    6. Step2,
      Thank you for your modification to my statement of what free speech is; we agree that it concerns limits to what government may do, not what schools or other organizations may do (so firings there do not contradict the first amendment). As far as I know, SCOTUS has not ruled on whether the FCC regulations are constitutional or not, so I was assuming that they are.

      Delete
  16. Kimmel is back on ABC on Tuesday night, so he has hardly been cancelled--equating the temporary suspension of Kimmel by ABC to the Taliban taking over the country (I think that was Mark Ruffalo) is ludicrous.

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    1. You miss the point. Disney should not have let Trump's FCC bully them into taking him off the air. Public outcry and bad publicity made them put him back on.

      Delete
    2. In the last two or three days, various things have come out which shows that the Biden administration was FAR more into censorship than is the Trump administration. Google have acknowledged the Biden administration pressured them into censoring those who were doing things like speaking out against the vaccine mandate. Thankfully, Google is now replatforming those people. The FBI has similarly acknowledged that Operation Arctic Frost was investigating Charlie Kirk’s foundation and dozens of other organizations and individuals guilty of nothing other than promoting conservative viewpoints. Thankfully, that operation has now ended. The Biden administration were not as bad as the Taliban but were significantly worse than the Trump administration. To say that the Trump administration is worse than the Taliban is the height of foolishness.

      Delete
  17. After public pressure on Disney , Jimmy Kimmel returns to TV. We are not living in a fascist state. Yet.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They reinstated him because a leftist shot up one of ABC's studios.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous@September 22, 2025 at 3:08 PM

      No we aren't living in a fascist state. We are living in a state in which wackos shoot people they disagree with and corporate buildings that suspend TV shows no one actually watches. Kinda sounds like the Wiemar Republic though.

      Delete
  18. William,
    No, a lunatic shooting into an ABC studio didn't make Disney put Kimmel back on the air; it was public pressure and Disney knew it would affect their corporate profits. Pam Bondi's Justice Dept. deleted a study from its website showing far right extremists were responsible for most political violence:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/doj-quietly-scrubs-study-on-far-right-attacks-after-kirk-shooting/

    bmiller Wackos have been shooting at national leaders in this country for a VERY long time. People do watch Kimmel and his ratings have actually been quite good:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonifitzgerald/2025/09/19/jimmy-kimmel-ratings-over-the-years-he-was-no-1-with-young-adults/

    We are living in an authoritarian state. Journalist and historian Garrett Graff summed it up well:
    https://www.doomsdayscenario.co/p/america-tips-into-fascism-f51000e08e03254d
    During the Weimar Republic there was violence from the Left and the Right, which Hitler stoked to ascend into power, and he had Germans who wanted revenge and were ready to go to war for the Fatherland. Trump only wants to use government power against his perceived enemies here.


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    Replies
    1. Anonymous@September 23, 2025 at 12:54 PM

      Do you approve of the 2 Trump would-be assassins?

      People do watch Kimmel
      Not half as many as tuned in for the game show re-runs that replaced him.

      During the Weimar Republic there was violence from the Left and the Right,

      That violence was among fellow socialists. Global Socialists vs National Socialists. Violence and totalitarianism is a feature of socialism regardless of the flavor.

      Delete
    2. "That violence was among fellow socialists. Global Socialists vs National Socialists."

      So, the Nazis were extreme nationalists, obsessed with blood and race, rejected class struggle for undermining national unity, allied themselves with the other racist parties of the Geman extreme right, and were invited into power by a right-wing chancellor to lead a right-wing cabinet. Once they were in power, they developed a close, mutually-beneficial relationship with big business and the officer corps and made no effort whatosoever at establishing "social justice" apart from boycotting Jewish department stories and sending rich and poor people on Strength Through Joy cruises. They suppressed labor unions, put socialists, Jews, and homosexuals in concentration camps, allied themselves with other right-wing regimes (good luck convincing anyone that Franco was a socialist), poured money into defense manufacturing, and invaded the Soviet Union on a crusade to destroy communism. But, because they call themselves "socialists," they must really be leftists.

      I think you maybe need to stop leaving comments on the Internet and go read a book.

      Delete
    3. Do I approve of the 2 Trump would-be assassins? What the hell? Your must mentally ill to even ask that question. Or you are just a nasty person. Those game re -run shows are from Sinclair Broadcasting, which is a very conservative network that won't show Kimmel to please Trump and to cozy up with his FCC for business deals. "Kinda like the Weimar Republic." If you think this country is like the Weimar Republic, then you are indeed mentally ill.

      Delete
    4. Do you consider Britain to be socialist?

      Delete
    5. Shag,

      Have a read:
      https://fee.org/articles/theres-no-denying-the-socialist-roots-of-fascism/

      Delete
    6. Anonymous@September 24, 2025 at 2:54 PM

      You're hysterically concerned the US is fascist because a lowly rated lefty comedian was suspended by a privately owned network for offensive remarks, but consider lefty wackos shooting innocent people almost every day no particular concern. Why is that?

      Roseanne had




      Delete
    7. Sorry. Was going to point out it was hypocritical for a lefty to whine about Kimmel while remaining silent about Roseanne Barr who was permanently canceled by the same people. But Duh! Calling a lefty a hypocrite is redundant.

      Delete
    8. That link is to a right wing think tank. Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are socialist countries with high standards of living but they were never violent like Cuba, China, North Korea or Russia.

      Roseanne Barr was fired because she made a racist tweet.
      "ABC canceled “Roseanne” Tuesday
      morning after the show’s lead, Roseanne
      Barr, let off a series of racist tweets the night prior. The tweets included a comment referring to former Obama aide Valerie Jarrett as the offspring of the “Muslim Brotherhood & Planet of the Apes" Per an earlier link I posted link, Kimmel's rating are good.

      "lefty wackos shooting innocent people almost every day no particular concern. Why is that?"
      You don't need to be posting on a philosophy blog. You need to see a psychiatrist. Conversation is not possible with you.

      Delete
    9. Thurible , You said it well:
      " I think you maybe need to stop leaving comments on the Internet and go read a book." And he needs professional help

      Delete
    10. "Sweden, Norway, and Denmark are socialist countries".

      No, that is a statement just as silly as those of American "conservatives" (who are really more libertarian than conservative) calling all redistribution programs "socialist". Those three nations have stronger welfare

      Delete
    11. Sorry, my last comment was unfinished due to the publish button being right next to the text box in blogspot's very poorly designed system. A bigger welfare state is not socialism. All 3 countries named have a strong capitalist base and balance their welfarism with freer market policies than many other European nations in other areas, such as labour laws.

      Delete
    12. Also, rejecting FEE's analysis of Nazi socio-economic policy because they are pro-market and lean right is a genetic fallacy. No doubt their analysis would be as selective in choosing data as TGTOD's, but their arguments are not disproven by noting their political leaning. While I think TGTOD's assessment is closer to the truth, it is probably a pointless exercise to reduce political calculus to a unidirectional spectrum, even now. Bismarck helped lay the foundation for modern welfare states, partly in order to undermine socialism and defuse revolutionary impulses, as I understand it. Is he thereby leftist? High Tories and Radicals in the 19th C condemned workhouses, brought in by a Whig regime, as unchristian. China combines crony capitalism with totalitarian social control, massive government intervention and socialist propaganda. Is wanting to minimise government leftist anarchism, conservatism or classical liberalism? Where did Wilberforce fit, being anti-union and anti-slavery? The White Australia Policy had strong support for most of the 20th C from the Australian Labor party. Dixiecrats supported both the New Deal and Jim Crow laws.

      I could go on, but the point is that the left-right paradigm obscures as much as it reveals.

      Delete
    13. Anonymous@September 25, 2025 at 2:03 PM

      None of these recent comments of yours address the any of the points I've made. As such the points stand.

      Delete
    14. Fr Kirby,

      Thank you pointing out the genetic fallacy as well as laying out the fact that things are not as simple as "everyone is a Nazi if they don't agree with my leftist group's particular social program at this particular time".

      Here's an essay from a "libertarian communism" site that discusses "The Forbidden History of Left-wing Socialist Tendency within Nazism" https://files.libcom.org/files/NATIONAL%20BOLSHEVISM%20IN%20WEIMAR%20GERMANY.pdf.

      Superficially, there are some moderate left-wing analysts claiming that “nazis included socialist as a catchphrase to attract more workers to their political party”, unaware of their own lack of understanding to the complicated historical context of the time. Thus, examining these complexities is vital, especially considering the contemporary resurgence of far-right nationalism, de-globalisation attempts and anti-immigration populism. Understanding the nuances of far-right politics and its historical context is crucial for developing effective strategies to prevent the rise of similar ideologies nowadays.

      I remember the left-wing-organized Occupy Wall Street movement being highly publicized around 2011. They were loudly and proudly anti-capitalist. Most people in America were either annoyed or ignored them because most Americans like capitalism.

      Suddenly, that movement disappeared into the memory hole and now the left claims they are only about punching Nazis who are apparently behind every blade of grass. No one in America ever even heard of Antifa before this. Seems they thought they could fool enough left leaning American who were capitalists at heart into believing all capitalists were really Nazis all along.

      Delete
    15. Corrected link:
      https://libcom.org/article/forbidden-history-left-wing-socialist-tendency-within-nazism

      Delete
  19. Who is supposed to make these decisions about which ideas are suitable for which audiences? You write "What about the expression of ideas that positively frustrate the pursuit of what is true or good? ... consider theories that are inherently subversive of the social order and pit one group against another, such as Nazism, Marxism, and Critical Race Theory. "

    OK, well, there are plenty of people who think those theories are just great and worth teaching. Who gets to decide? Who makes the determination of which ideas are harmful and which aren't? That is really the only free speech question.

    I also note that your criterion would have banned the teachings of Christ, which were most certainly subversive of the social order.

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  20. I’ve been doing lots of thinking based on that article you wrote for the Postliberal Order, Professor Feser, because some robust program of accountability is called for in this moment.

    I understand the criticality of prudence, but I’m afraid that Charlie Kirk’s assassination lays out in the crimson of his blood that the social order is already thoroughly subverted. Kirk, a right-leaning moderate, was slain under the calumny of being a hateful fascist. For the sake of the common good and the peace and stability of our country, these terms of abuse and their like, “Nazi,” “fascist,” or any of the left’s neologisms for “bigot,” can no longer be indulged as merely abstract rhetoric or hyperbole that one side gets to deploy for partisan advantage and the other meekly tolerates it’s institutionalized dehumanization. There can be no free speech when one side brings arguments to public debate while the other brings a gun that is justified by their own self-serving and habitual defamation of the former as essentially hostis generis humani. Given the lack of soul-searching and limp condemnation, if not outright enthusiasm, for Kirk’s murder in many, though not all, quarters of the left, it seems highly unlikely they will reform unless they are made to. What form that takes, prudent though it ought to be, must be retributive and sufficiently public so as to rehabilitate all those who think it’s morally permissible, if not praiseworthy, to shoot us right-wingers with impunity for articulating our views. And that also includes those who have cynically inculcated that antipathy for us, their countrymen, because the current reality revealed by Kirk’s brutal demise is frankly unacceptable. And any social backlash and or state-sponsored enterprise that would be effective in these aspects would have to be highly punitive and far-reaching as failure here, I’m afraid, will result in a politics even more unpleasant and approaching what can be called civil war.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Don't be daft. That Kirk was a bigot is an unquestionable fact, a matter of public record. There is far more political violence from the right than from the left – also an unquestionable fact from the public record. To say otherwise is simply lying as part of a propaganda campaign to further the already dangerous polarization tearing our society apart.

      Delete
    2. First of all, as someone who was trained to be one of those keepers of public record and was among their ranks for several years, I can tell you they’re not above lying for ideological reasons and are far from being intellectually honest. They’re the most capable and nefarious propagandists of our time, and given it sounds like your parroting their spin on both Kirk and who is actually engaging in far more political violence, especially because the latter is getting harder to deny with each passing shooting of Christian school children by deranged trans-identifying culprits, or riot in the streets by the likes of Antifa or BLM, or attack on federal law enforcement (ICE). Kirk was no bigot. He’s been misrepresented and those quotes taken out of context because as I said, journalists lie. Like that infographic in the Economist, it doesn’t count the “fiery but mostly peaceful” George Floyd riots of 2020 as left-wing violence, basing the data on criminal convictions, which means the perpetrators of over $2 billion in property damage and dozens of deaths and countless assaults in that summer weren’t properly prosecuted and thus ignored. Given that this narrative is being pushed, and gullibly believed in your case, in the aftermath of one of the most-egregious displays of left-wing violence in recent memory, it’s reasonable, not “daft,” to suspect truth is not what the curators of public record are after and their claims are far from being above question.

      Secondly, you blurting out erroneously that Kirk was a bigot seems to be an implicature to the effect his death was in some way excusable. That, the shooting of a “bigot” in the throat while exercising his free speech rights is not a big deal. More or less half the country shares Kirk’s views, which, applying your reasoning, makes them bigots, and if they are under threat of being shot in the neck while exercising their rights to free speech, the implicature again is that’s no big deal. So thank you for demonstrating the very toxic defamatory attitude pervasive on the left that denounces people on the right as beyond the pale, deplorable and unworthy of the basic civility that keeps society civil and thus provides the permission structures and incentives for the Tyler Robinsons in the country to feel justified in shooting those who dissent from what you believe. And until the left is held to account for their calumnies and rediscovers the decency to treat people on the right as people and not as enemies whose deaths are permissible, if not praiseworthy, there is no long-term hope for reconciliation, with more terrible violence from both sides being inevitable.

      Delete
    3. Modus Pownens,
      I await the moment you denounce the demagoguery employed by the defamatory convict in the White House. Someone who coincidentally incited a mob to assault and vandalize the Capitol for the purpose of overturning an election; the mob even building gallows for hanging his VP when not trying to attack members of Congress.

      You should simply follow the advice so routinely intoned after every other act of gun violence, don't politicize tragedy.

      Delete
    4. Beautifully said, Modus Pownens. I share bmiller's awe. "Charlie Kirk's assassination lays out in the crimson of his blood that the social order is already subverted." I do counsel patience because a partial accounting is coming for some of the people who subverted the order: Comey, Wray, Google, Milley, Soros judges, Clapper, and others. More evidence for the depth of their subversion is being revealed every week. But you are right; we can no longer meekly tolerate the dehumanization of the Charlie Kirks of the world. There are non-violent ways of holding these people accountable. We begin by rejecting "both sides" rhetoric when it comes to Turning Point USA and those who label them fascists or the like. Cardinal Dolan and Dennis Prager have spoken eloquently of Charlie Kirk; I echo their sentiments.

      Delete
    5. Given that the ICE shooter in Dallas killed and injured only detainees rather than agents and the Antifa nitwits in Portland bombed ICE CUBE'S bus rather than an ICE bus, it's apparent that these leftists aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. Unfortunately, it seems that the FBI has not been much better.

      Why have those clowns not all been arrested when they impede ICE?

      Delete
  21. It should be illegal to be a climate change denier or anti-vaxxer.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous@September 24, 2025 at 8:21 PM

      Sort of like the Albigensian Crusade right? From a lefty I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition!

      Delete
  22. It is estimated that 100 billion people have ever lived. Going from the Wikipedia pages, the estimate of the total population of the developed countries (Europe, Japan, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) is 1.28 billion.

    Not everyone in those countries is a leftist, and of course political beliefs have a fair amount of variety. Also, there are leftists in other countries, but I think it's not bad for a coarse estimate of how many people who believe in modern leftism have ever lived.

    So, almost 99% of people in all of human history were not modern leftists and in particular, they didn't believe in the current sexual revolutionary agenda or that people are just interchangeable widgets. Which are two of standard pillars of contemporary leftism.

    By the way, many countries now reject those. And people even in the developed countries are increasingly rejecting these ideas and other leftist ideas.

    So, tell me again, who are the extremists?

    ReplyDelete
  23. I check this site comments every once in a while to check the temp of what should be a ‘better’ more moral rightwing perspective. I am disappointed every time. It is unfortunate that the Schloastics have, imo, written great works, on a philosophical area of great interest to me, the theory of mind. I have a deep respect for John Deely and his history of philosophy and the ideas therein. It PAINS me to find metaphysical use out of this tradition as its standard bearers, collectively, are the worst and most vicious hypocrites on the planet. Read through the comments on several posts here concerning the latest wave of violence and maybe 3/4 people are speaking with moral clarity. Most others are venerating a racist and bigot while using semantics to excuse another, who happens to be the most venal, worst human to ever hold the office. Why? For the Power to enforce racism and bigotry on everyone else.The fact is this: Right wing, white supremacist and bigots are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of political violence in this country. It is not close. They are the number 1 threat, not left wing ideology, not critical race theory, not another religion, nothing but yourselves and the people you raise into this violence and intolerance.

    It is a lie that left wing ideology is the biggest problem. It is a a lie that left wing groups are the arbiters and financiers of violence. These are demonstrably lies and yet you still lie repeat it - because, again, truth is not your aim, but dominance.

    This insular talk amongst yourselves is always amazing to me. Almost Zero self-awareness. A culture that still defends slavers, a culture that will hide evidence of slavery while venerating the disgusting human beings that fought for its preservation, a culture that treated lynchings like a day at the Fair, and all this, while at the same time extolling virtue and goodness, going to church every Sunday. Preaching. Proselytizing about the God they worship that will punish evil. It continues till this day. It is maddening.

    The horrors of living amongst people that would subjugate you if they ever again had the chance ( and currently building towards just that ), pontificating amongst themselves about how bad the other side is. The same people who would find biblical reasons to justify inhuman violence and degradation, if it were to happen here again.

    How many state sanctioned assassinations of Black people have any of you grappled with, internalized or have it as a background when you start thinking about what to do with ‘the Left?’ How many of you examine or have any actual knowledge of how the law is actually distributed that informs your questions? How many of you have reflected - any at all- on the contradictions inherent in your history that continue today? Of your lust for violence and vengeance against the victims that practice the ethos of your religion better than you do? Your ignorance is willful so you can impetuously deny the reality of the horrors you inflict on the world everyday.

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  24. Anonymous@September 26, 2025 at 8:10 PM

    Setting aside that you have your facts wrong, it sounds like you think killing people you disagree with is justified. It's not. It's murder.

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  25. I think Feser is essentially correct, philosophically. But philosophy to my mind has two components or aspects: (1) pursuing the truth about being and, (2) dealing with its own historical and practical limits. This last mentioned aspect of philosophy is called by Hegel: "Die eigene Zeit in Gedanken erfasst". For a society like ours, which finds itself in a situation of not being ordered to any objective "common good", free speech is an essential and its limits are obvious: defamation, intimidation and incitement to criminal acts. The reason is that free speech is so important is that it keeps open the possibility of a return to objective truth, without falling prey to ideology.

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