Saturday, May 23, 2026

Nagel on Stroud on the possibility of metaphysics

Much of modern philosophy has been hypnotized by the idea that causality, necessity, and value are not features of objective reality but merely features the human mind projects onto reality.  David Hume is, of course, the main hypnotist in this connection.  In his important book Engagement and Metaphysical Dissatisfaction, Barry Stroud holds that the arguments for this skeptical attitude do not succeed, and that causality, necessity, and value in fact cannot coherently be eliminated from our conception of the objective world.  At the same time, he does not think that this yields a proof that they really are features of the objective world.  It may be that they are illusions after all, even if we can’t help but believe in them.  Hence, if metaphysics is concerned with establishing one way or another whether such features really are part of objective reality, it is, in Stroud’s view, an impossible project.

Thomas Nagel’s review of Stroud’s book is reprinted in his collection Analytic Philosophy and Human Life.  Nagel raises an important objection to Stroud’s pessimism.  To understand it, we need first to understand Stroud’s rebuttal to skepticism about causality, necessity, and value.

To begin with causality, Hume famously holds that we have no grounds for believing that one event causally generates another, nor even a clear idea of what it would be for it to do so.  We observe, for example, that when one billiard ball contacts another, the latter moves.  Having experienced this on multiple occasions, we come to believe that any event like the first will be followed by an event like the second.  But what we don’t actually observe, says Hume, is any causal power in the first billiard ball by virtue of which it brings about the motion of the second.  It is only the repetition of the sequence – the “constant conjunction” of events of the first type with events of the second type – that we can strictly claim to experience.  This constant conjunction produces in us an expectation that events of the second type will follow events of the first type, and the mind then projects this expectation onto the world, interpreting what is really only a habit of ours as if it were a feature of the billiard balls themselves.  The expectation and projection are merely psychological facts about us and tell us nothing about objective reality.

The trouble with this sort of analysis, argues Stroud, is that it is incoherent.  Hume claims to cast doubt on the reality of causality by making of it a mere psychological projection born of a conditioned expectation on our part.  But our being conditioned to form this expectation, and then going on to project it onto the world, are themselves causal processes.  Hence, Hume has to make crucial use of the notion of causality in the course of trying to cast doubt on the notion of causality. 

Causal necessity is a species of necessity in general, so let’s turn to that.  We take it that whereas it is only contingently true that there is water on the earth, or that beetles exist, or that the Allies won World War II, other things are true of strict necessity.  That is to say, there are things that not only are the case, but could not possibly have failed to be the case.  For example, it is true of necessity that 2 + 2 = 4.  It is true that, if all men are mortal and Socrates is a man, then it follows of necessity that Socrates is mortal.  And so on.

But some have cast doubt on the idea that anything is, as a matter of objective fact, true of necessity, and Hume is once again representative of this skeptical position.  What we take to be necessary truths are, in his view, merely expressions of the “relations of ideas.”  We hold, for example, that all bachelors are unmarried, and indeed this is true by definition.  But that merely reflects how we have, as a matter of contingent fact, decided to use certain words; and this in turn reflects how we have, as a matter of contingent fact, decided to relate certain ideas (the idea of being unmarried and the idea of being a bachelor).  Once again, what appear to be facts about objective reality turn out, on the Humean analysis, to be facts about human psychology.

But here too, Stroud argues, there is incoherence.  In developing arguments like Hume’s, one has, as with any argument, to apply canons of valid logical inference (such as modus ponens, modus tollens, and the like).  Otherwise one’s arguments will be unsound and thus without force.  But such rules of inference reflect necessary connections between premises and conclusion.  For example, modus ponens tells us that if it is true that If p, then q and it is true that p, then it must of necessity also be the case that q is true.  The Humean skeptic therefore has to presuppose certain kinds of necessity in the course of arguing against the claim that there are any genuine necessities.

Now consider value.  The Humean skeptic about value holds that whenever we judge some action to be the best one to take or some belief to be the best one to hold, that is only because of some desire we happen contingently to have.  Hence, if the desire were different, what would count as the best would be different.

Stroud objects that this is simply not how such judgments are actually formed.  If someone believes that p is true and also believes that if p is true, then q is also true, then if he goes on to form the belief that q is true, that has nothing to do with his having a desire of some sort.  He simply notes that the premises are a reason to believe the conclusion.  Similarly, if someone decides to help a friend in distress, that can be simply because he judges such distress to be a good reason to help a friend, rather because some additional factor – his having a desire to help the friend – plays any role in his judgment.

Note also that the skeptic’s position ends up being self-undermining if he takes his analysis of such judgments to cast doubt on their validity.  For that would entail that the skeptic’s own belief that his analysis is the correct one has no more connection to the way things objectively really are than the judgments he criticizes do.

Do arguments like these show that causality, necessity, and value really are features of objective reality?  Again, Stroud resists this conclusion.  The most we can say, he thinks, is that we cannot help but conceive of objective reality as having these features.  But for all that, it may be that these features are nevertheless not really out there in the world.  Stroud draws an analogy with G. E. Moore’s famous paradox.  The statement “I believe it is raining, but it isn’t” is not one that anyone could coherently affirm.  If you sincerely say that you believe it is raining, you cannot consistently go on to deny that it is raining.  Still, it is possible for the statement to be true.  That is to say, it can be true both that you sincerely believe that it is raining, and also that it isn’t in fact raining.  Your belief could be false even if you can’t coherently think that it is.  Similarly, Stroud says, while we cannot help but believe in the reality of causality, necessity, and value, it is still possible that our belief in them is false.

I think Stroud’s position goes wrong at this point, and so does Nagel.  As Nagel points out, the analogy Stroud draws with Moore’s paradox fails in a crucial respect.  Moore’s paradoxical statement has the form “I believe that p, but not-p.”  Where p is “It is raining,” while I cannot coherently believe the statement in question, I can certainly conceive of a scenario where it is true.  That is to say, I can coherently conceive of a situation where I believe that it is raining and yet it isn’t raining.

But suppose instead that p is “There are necessary truths.”  In this case, not only can I not coherently believe the statement, but I also cannot conceive of a scenario where it is true.  That is to say, I cannot conceive of a scenario where I believe that there are necessary truths and yet there are no necessary truths.  For the whole point of Stroud’s critique of Humean skepticism is that I can’t coherently doubt the reality of necessary truths (or of causality, or of value).  “Not-p” is conceivable where p is “It is raining,” but not where p is “There are necessary truths.”  Hence the purported parallel with Moore’s paradox is bogus.

I think this is correct, and that Stroud can and should have drawn from his arguments a more robustly anti-skeptical conclusion than he was willing to draw.  He argues persuasively that we cannot coherently doubt the reality of causality, necessity, and value, but stops short of concluding that this shows that these are features of objective reality.  He should not have stopped short.

Stroud’s rebuttal of Humean skepticism deploys what are sometimes called “retorsion arguments.”  The strategy of such an argument is to defend some claim p by showing that anyone who denies p is led thereby into a performative self-contradiction.  Critics of retorsion arguments sometimes suggest that all they show is that the skeptic cannot coherently reject p, but not that p is actually true.  Stroud seems to be conceding this sort of objection, which is why he draws a more modest conclusion than, in my view, he ought to have.

But he should not have conceded it.  At pp. 80-84 of my book Aristotle’s Revenge, I defend retorsion arguments against this sort of objection.  As I there argue, the right way to understand a retorsion argument is as a kind of reductio ad absurdum argument.  That is to say, it defends p by showing that to deny p leads to a contradiction.  And if a reductio argument succeeds, it doesn’t show merely that we must believe p (where this could be the case even if p were false).  It shows that p is actually true.

(As it happens, at pp. 346-50 of Aristotle’s Revenge I also discuss and defend an argument Stroud develops in his book The Quest for Reality which rebuts skepticism about the objective reality of colors.  Here too, Stroud stops short of concluding that his argument actually establishes the truth of realism, as opposed to merely rebutting arguments against it.  And here too, I argue that Stroud is too modest and that his argument does in fact establish the stronger conclusion.)

Related reading:

Stroud on Hume

Roundup of posts on Nagel’s Mind and Cosmos

31 comments:

  1. After all these years of reading Feser, the two key questions I always ask when I hear a fishy argument that sounds logical on it's face are, "Is it self consistent?", or "Does it prove too much".

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  2. That's the kind of post that keeps our philosophical spirit alive! Excellent work, Ed.

    By the way, I’ve been thinking lately about the differences and similarities between Ein Soph and the God of Classical Theism. I’d love to see you explore the topic one day, though I suggest it somewhat timidly for two reasons.

    First, it’s a deep and demanding subject. Second, given the current geopolitical tensions, some might unfortunately try to politicize the discussion. They could (deliberately or even stupidly) misinterpret a purely metaphysical exercise as a veiled political statement — for instance, by claiming that arguing the Classical Theist conception of God is superior in certain respects somehow amounts to antisemitism. I know this sounds absurd, but unfortunately, it’s a possible reaction in today’s climate.

    That said, I love these kinds of posts. Keep up the good work, Ed!

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  3. I've read that Hume objected to causation being certain on the empiricist grounds that causation is not directly perceivable. But neither are other minds. So do empiricists concede on the same grounds that the existence of other minds are just as uncertain as causation?

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    1. Infamously and perversely Yes they do or rather did. This is why Behaviourism, both philosophical and psychological e.g. Skinner and Watson, was so popular in the era of Logical Positivism--because it was considered the only verifiable and thus "scientific" form of psychology. Let us all take a moment to wonder at the sublime logic of combining Humean phenomenalism, a form of radical first person idealism or solipsism, with a quasi-eliminativist view on minds. . .

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    2. Anik Waldo, in her book "Hume and the Problem of Other Mind", addressed that question.

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    3. I wondered what motivated this line of empiricist line of reasoning. I did some quick research. Is it true that it was motivated by a desire to provide a philosophical basis for a political idea. That idea is that there should be no hierarchy in human affairs.

      If no one had any innate knowledge and everyone was born as a blank slate and only acquired knowledge through the senses then everyone would be equal. Since everyone is equal there should be no aristocracy or any other form of hierarchy.

      The fact that taken to its logical ends led to absurd conclusions produced other systems that led to other absurd conclusions. Did anyone ever consider dropping the original political goal in order to do philosophy? Or would that lead to physical assaults on the philosopher?

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    4. @Bmiller,

      I am uncertain as to whether that can be the motivation if only because the Lockean idea of the blank slate and worse the dreadful notion of Imagism which under-girds all the nonsense of Berkley and Hume is pretty standard Aristotle, with the key difference that the great Greek philosopher is clear to distinguish between images/phantasms which he held were particular thoughts and concepts which were universal thoughts. Locke was a a dreadful writer so it's quite probably he was just going on as a moderate nominalist scholastic minus the "logic chopping."

      Really if one accepts Descartes primary and secondary quality distinction something like innate knowledge starts to look inevitable (the other option being God literally intervenes to put the qualities which cannot come from the external world directly in the mind of the subject.)

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    5. Both Descartes and Locke accepted primary and secondary qualities, right? So the concept was common to both rationalists and empiricists, both rejecting "Aristotelianism".

      Locke wrote that he was originally motivated to start writing the Essay Concerning Human Understanding as a result of a discussion concerning morality and religion, the book that expounds the blank slate theory. But that book also draws a political conclusion from the blank slate that argues against tyranny.

      "Nor is it a small power it gives one man over another, to have the authority to be the dictator of principles, and teacher of unquestionable truths... [It] take[s] men off from the use of their own reason and judgment, and put[s] them upon a blind implicit faith... In which posture they might more easily be governed by those who... have the skill to use them."

      It's probably no coincidence that he noticed this connection since he was a Whig that opposed the royal tyranny of that time.

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  4. Hume is easy to read, unlike other philosophers.

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    1. Here I think one of the rare weaknesses of Analytical philosophy is allowing Stroud too much wiggle room. One might start to challenge what this unknowable external reality could be, how we could know of it or even what logical sense it would have. At least it might be an unnecessary and confusing postulate at worst a logically incoherent notion. This is exactly what Kant's more consistent disciples did opening the royal road to Idealism.

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  5. A related argument against skepticism about the 'external' world is given in my 'Stroud, Hegel, Heidegger: a Transcendental Argument' 2018 International Journal for the Study of Skepticism.

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  6. This was a great post Prof !

    The fact that these notions of causality ,necessity and value are inevitable is something that a lot of people questioning them don't even realise.

    I think you do a really good work at pointing that out.

    Do you happen to know of any 20th century physcists who took the notion of "change" to be fundamental to our understanding of science ?

    I know that change is at the heart of your understanding of causality.

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  7. The crux of the matter I think is this: Skeptical arguments like Hume's all consist of claims to the effect that things we take to be objectively real (like causality, necessity, and value) are merely subjective, on the grounds that we can't know anything about objective reality, only our subjective experience.

    But to say that something is merely subjective is to positively affirm that subjects objectively exist, and really do have the subjective experiences in question, which is a claim about the very objective reality that the skeptic said we couldn't know anything about. To the extent that the skeptic uses logic to argue for his position, he's affirming that logical necessity tells us something about objective reality as well.

    Positions like Stroud's do the same thing. To say that we must believe in rules of logic, value, and causality is not just an assertion about subjective experience. It's a claim about how subjects are constructed in objective reality and the rules governing them.

    Because skeptical arguments are necessarily claims about objective reality, try as the skeptic may to obscure that fact, retorsion arguments that show the skeptic's position to be incoherent necessarily tell you about objective reality as well.

    The same flaw applies to materialist arguments too. To argue that anything reduces to anything else, for instance that A reduces to B, is just to say that only B exists objectively and thst A only seems to exist subjectively because of how we experience B. Hence all reductionist claims entail a positive assertion that subjects objectively exist. Hence when the reductionist argues that subjects themselves reduce to blind mechanisms (and so are not objectively real but only exist subjectively) he's contradicting himself, and that absurdity in his position likewise tells us something about objective reality, namely that subjects do not reduce to something else such as blind mechanisms.

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    1. "But to say that something is merely subjective is to positively affirm that subjects objectively exist, and really do have the subjective experiences in question, which is a claim about the very objective reality that the skeptic said we couldn't know anything about."

      Are you sure this is saying anything meaningful?It sounds like you're talking about epistemological subjectivism, in which case I don't see how they'd actually be affected by your claim. Sure, observers (presumably) exist in objective reality, but the mere fact that we exist in the world isn't really a useful or interesting fact about it. Their main point is that we can't access information about it that isn't filtered through our subjective experiences, or in more modern scientific language, a simulated reconstruction of the world created by our brains using data from the senses. I don't see how saying "hah, you admitted that observers objectively exist in the world!" actually does much of anything. At most, that gets you precisely one fact about the outside world, one that's logically implied by the idea that other people exist at all. How does that actually get you close to a workable epistemology? At best, this seems kind of like nitpicking.

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    2. "or in more modern scientific language, a simulated reconstruction of the world created by our brains using data from the senses"

      If we're taking Humean skepticism seriously, the whole idea that we even have brains, and that these brains "use data" to "reconstruct" the world or exercise any causal powers whatsoever (especially teleological ones like forming representations) is one of those things that we can have no grounds for believing.

      "At most, that gets you precisely one fact about the outside world, one that's logically implied..."

      So two facts (for starters): that subjects objectively exist in the world (or to put it another way, that the world is the sort of thing in which subjects can and do objectively exist), and that logical implications (aka necessity) do in fact tell you things about the world.

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    3. I'm not some kind of dedicated or knowledgeable Humean, so I'd prefer not to pretend to have knowledge that I don't. I'm content to leave Hume where he stands, I'm not that invested in his particular philosophy.

      However, I'm curious about this other claim you make:

      "To argue that anything reduces to anything else, for instance that A reduces to B, is just to say that only B exists objectively and thus A only seems to exist subjectively because of how we experience B."

      Even if this were true, it would be insufficient as a response to materialism or naturalism per se. It only addresses *reductionist* materialism, and that's hardly the only form of materialism that exists. One could just as easily say that all things which exist are explainable by natural processes, but that some of those things are emergent properties of material processes rather than simply properties of the materials themselves. After all, the Sun is very hot and bright, and is made of little else but hydrogen and helium atoms. Yet hydrogen and helium atoms are neither hot nor bright. The heat and light is a byproduct/epiphenomenon of the atoms being arranged into a certain shape. Similarly, one could argue that the mind (hence the subject) is an epiphenomenon of neurons being arranged in a certain pattern. Certainly, that would be a simpler explanation of our thoughts, and of why our minds become damaged when our brains are damaged, as opposed to supposing that there is some otherworldly substance located within us that somehow interacts with the brain in precisely such a way as to be diminished when our brains are damaged.

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    4. Intentionality AnonMay 29, 2026 at 2:05 PM

      (Part 1)

      Alright, time to jump in! While "reductionism" is one of those terms whose meaning is debated, the way I (and many others) prefer to think about it is that if A reduces to B, then the A-facts logically follow from the B-facts. If you knew all the B-facts (and perhaps a "that's all" clause saying there are no other relevant factors in play), you could derive the A-facts with nothing else needed. So in the Sun example EXE used, the Sun being hot and bright is reducible to facts about its structure and composition, given the laws of physics we have.

      Note that this is, of course, entirely compatible with the claim that the heat and light objectively exist! I think what The Deuce might be getting at is our experiences, such as of heat and brightness, but those clearly don't depend on facts about the Sun alone (they also depend on facts about us). Or perhaps the issue is that if complete reductionism in this sense (from the facts about the fundamental physics of the universe, you can logically derive all of the other facts) holds, then "emergence" is not objective, but relative to a subject's knowledge. Someone who doesn't know physics might be shocked that you can get heat and light from hydrogen and helium atoms, but once you learn the relevant physics, it's not a surprise anymore.

      So I don't think reductionist materialists are claiming that subjects don't objectively exist (if anything, it's eliminativists who might be claiming that, and if they are, that does seem to lead to the incoherence The Deuce described). The reductionists are claiming that certain systems of "blind mechanisms" just are subjects - that if you knew enough about these mechanisms, all the facts about subjects would logically follow. Now, this is not obviously self-contradictory, because it's not denying the existence of subjects - and as EXE points out, some things can have properties that none of their parts have.

      The debate is about whether all the properties of minds, such as consciousness, intentionality, and rationality, can be understood in fully mechanistic terms after all. (There are other things that have been brought up such as unity and personal identity over time, but this blog doesn't focus as much on them, I think.) And many people have argued that they cannot be - some of those arguments have been discussed in previous blog posts. For instance, the "Mary's Room" argument claims that all the physical facts alone are insufficient to derive facts about conscious experience, and the "indeterminacy of the physical" argument (which even some materialists such as Quine and Rosenberg accept - though then they must deny that determinate meaning exists at all), claims that it is impossible to determine with 100% accuracy the meaning of thoughts or words from all the purely physical facts alone.

      Of course, these arguments are controversial, but if they are sound, reductionism fails. Now, I think even a failure of reductionism is at least technically compatible with a view of "strong emergence" in which all substances are physical and everything is a product of material processes, but some things have properties that you could not realize existed with full knowledge of the lower-level facts alone. However, claiming that something is "emergent" in this strong sense is not an explanation in the way that a reduction (in the sense I described earlier) is. The heat and light of the Sun are not strongly emergent precisely because there is a logical derivation of their existence, given more basic facts. Now, although this is controversial too, perhaps not everything has an explanation, though many scientists would hope otherwise. So that may not be an insurmountable issue.

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    5. Intentionality AnonMay 29, 2026 at 2:05 PM

      (Part 2)

      And to finish up - at least specifically in the philosophy of mind, I believe "epiphenomenon" is generally used to refer to something that is an effect of something else but does not cause anything in turn on its own. The light of the Sun is not epiphenomenal in this sense, because its photons, despite being the product of hydrogen and helium atoms, have causal powers that those atoms do not and can affect atoms. But in the philosophy of mind, epiphenomenalism is the view that mental phenomena are caused by physical phenomena but do not in turn cause physical effects.

      The problem with epiphenomenalism might be that part of what would have no physical effects is reasoning, so none of our actions are rational, including arguments for epiphenomenalism itself. That indeed seems self-refuting. In fact, part of the motivation for reductive materialism is to avoid epiphenomenalism - mental events can cause physical events if the mental events are themselves physical. Again, the question is whether determinate conceptual content logically follows from the physical facts, which would allow reduction, or not. It's also important to note that even non-materialist views can explain the brain's effects on the mind. For instance, Dr. Feser's A-T view is that for embodied humans, though the intellect is not physical, it requires mental imagery of some sort, which is physical, for it to function. I'm not necessarily saying I accept it, but it does provide an explanation for why brain damage affects the mind. Non-materialism is even consistent with the view that the physical brain is necessary for the mind - without being sufficient for it.

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  8. "Similarly, if someone decides to help a friend in distress, that can be simply because he judges such distress to be a good reason to help a friend, rather because some additional factor – his having a desire to help the friend – plays any role in his judgment."

    But he will *not* judge such distress to be a good reason to save his friend unless he also holds the desire "I want to protect my friend(s)", or "I want to be the kind of person that saves his friends' lives", or something of the sort. I don't claim to be an expert on Hume, but as far as my brief overview of his views on morality show, that seems to be his entire point. Namely, that merely observing relations of facts or logic cannot by itself move us to action. You can understand clear as day that "if I exercise, I will lose weight", but this will not move you to exercise unless you actually have the desire to lose weight.

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  9. Great post and truly clarifying. Perhaps I may add the point here that Humean Psychological reductionism or for that matter any kind of reducing the world to one of its dimensions or abstract aspects (e.g. mathematicism, physicalism, vitalism, historicism) of the special sciences, is in danger of losing sight of Being as the fundamental philosophical concept. As a consequence, all these reductionisms attempt to elevate the special aspect or dimension they have in view to the metaphysical status of replacing Being, or to narrow it to this or that kind of Being. But if all Being is either psychological, or physical, or historical, &c, then it seems to me that the very terms 'psychological', 'physical' or 'historical' lose their original special sense and meaning and become senseless and meaningless by being made universal and all-encompassing.

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    1. @Anonymous: can you unpack Being? Does "Being" cash out as more than "existence"? Is it meaningful to say, for example, "there exists an X that is F [put in some property here, even "extension"] but is not G, where G is 'being'"?

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  10. Hi Prof

    In Scholastic Metaphysics you talk of the causal relationship as a metaphysically necessary relationship between cause and effect.

    However in Aristotle's revenge you demarcate the causal relationship between perceptual experiences and external objects from there being a necessary connection between them.

    Are you using the term necessary in a different way here ?

    Do you mean to say something like, a cause is necessarily related to it's effect but the same effect may be brought about by a different cause ?

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  11. Regarding Hume's skepticism: in addition to other points made, I think that he underplays the problems behind the very idea of "constant conjunction". If you see a white billiard ball hit a green one, what makes you "decide" (it's not a conscious decision, certainly) to put that into the same class as the event of a red one striking a yellow one? Or a larger one hitting a smaller one? Or a tennis ball hitting a billiard ball? Or...any OTHER event than a white one of exactly the same size, color, weight, and shine, with exactly the same scuff marks (and other marks) in exactly the same orientation, in exactly the same location, hitting a green one with again the same exact details, in exactly the same direction with the same speed? (A "conjunction" that happens virtually never.) Indeed, why would we so lightly set aside a difference in TIME, i.e. assuming that the event of 2 minutes ago should fit into the same class as this event this moment, to be considered any sort of "conjunction"? There is a boatload of assumptions about what counts as different and what does not, unexplained by Hume's analysis.

    I am also a bit dismayed, regarding the discussion above, by the lack of precision (at least in some places) in identifying the pertinent interior activities, at some places using "believe" to cover other kinds of interior behavior than "belief" properly. Knowledge and opinion differ from belief. When you state "if p then q, and p, therefore q", the interior action in holding the conclusion isn't "belief", and isn't "opinion", it's "knowledge".

    Sensing is a kind of "knowing" (using the term in an extended sense), which provides an input of which you are certain: When I see the red ball, I might be mistaken as to whether there is in fact a red ball, but I am NOT EVER mistaken as to whether "I am experiencing red". Images in the imagination are neither knowledge nor belief: they are not something capable of being true or false, though an asserted relationship between the images and some other thing is capable of being true or false.

    Hume may wish to claim that all of the interior acts whereby we assert a truth claim are really belief or opinion, but he has to ALLOW the position that they are not such to be possible, while he makes the argument. And when he makes the argument using truth claims he holds OTHER THAN as belief or opinion, his argument fails.

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  12. An open metaphysical question to anyone including Prof

    Is physics in anyways dependent on the possibility of there being multiple instantiations or objects of the same type , such that if there were no individuals of the same type in principle, physics wouldn't be possible ?

    Any thoughts would be appreciated including Prof

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    1. Norm, can you elucidate on the placement of the problem here?

      Is there anyone who is arguing that there cannot be multiple instances of the same kind? Are they arguing against the very appearance that there are in fact multiple instantiations? Or merely that our judgment of that appearance is to be accounted as real distinct instantiations of the same kind?

      Would the people arguing this urge that there are no living beings that generate new beings, that (like Hume) it's only an appearance of generation?

      such that if there were no individuals of the same type in principle, physics wouldn't be possible ?

      I can see an argument suggesting that if there were no cases of several individuals of the same type, Aristotelians could have had no good source from which to draw the form-matter distinction. But how would that prevent real bodies from having physical activities according to laws? If God had created the universe as having only one hydrogen atom and one helium atom (and enough space to allow them to move), how would this entail an impossibility of physical behavior according to rules, though there might be difficulty of those rules in such a sparse field of activity?

      I don't see the question as a real problem.

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    2. Hi Anon

      Thanks for your kind engagement.

      I would say that the existence multiple instantiations of things is an argument against the mathematical universe hypothesis. On their view there can't be two objects of the dsmee type because the moment they allow that they have to deal with things like plato's third man.

      So typically they just try to deny that there are multiple instantiations of the same type.

      Since these views typically ground themselves in science, I feel if we show science itself requires there to be multiple instantiations of the same type.

      Then we can cut them at the legs.

      Which is why I was asking Prof, if he thinks that physics is in anyways dependent on the possibility of there being multiple instantiations or objects of the same type , such that if there were no individuals of the same type in principle, physics wouldn't be possible ?

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    3. Would appreciate other engagement as well

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    4. @ Anonymous re multiple instances of the same kind: it would depend on how strictly defined is the kind, no? If angels exist, they populate different kinds (thrones, dominions, etc.), but at the species level, each species of angel has only one member.

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    5. If this makes it easier , I could perhaps specify,

      Is something like theory of relativity dependent on there being multiples instantiations of the same form

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    6. Ficino4ml

      Good point !

      I am speaking about it in a general sense as in for example if you take the theory of relativity.

      So what I asked Prof was
      Would it in any way be dependent on there being multiple instantiations of anything

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  13. Norm, It's all Brownian Motion.

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