Yet
President Trump has this week indicated that the U.S. is joining the
conflict. He has said that
“we now have complete and total control of the skies over Iran,” and that “we
know exactly where the so-called ‘Supreme Leader’ is hiding… we are not going
to take him out (kill!), at least not for now.”
The “we” implies that the U.S. has already entered the war on Israel’s
side. He has said:
Iran should have signed the “deal” I told them to sign. What
a shame, and waste of human life. Simply stated, IRAN CAN NOT HAVE A NUCLEAR
WEAPON. I said it over and over again! Everyone should immediately evacuate
Tehran!
Taken at
face value, this indicates that the U.S. will participate in an attack that
will threaten the entire city of Tehran.
And he has
called for Iran’s “unconditional surrender.” Meanwhile, Israel is indicating
that regime change is among the aims of its war with Iran.
There are
two criteria of just war theory that the president is violating, at least if we
take his words at face value. First, for
a war to be just, it must be fought using only morally legitimate means. This
includes a prohibition on intentionally targeting civilians and civilian
infrastructure. To be sure, just war
theory allows that there can be cases where harm to civilians and civilian infrastructure
can be permissible, but only if (a) this is the foreseen but unintended
byproduct of an attack on military targets, and (b) the harm caused to
civilians and civilian infrastructure is not out of proportion to the good achieved
by destroying those military targets.
It is the
standard view among just war theorists that attacks such as the atomic bombings
of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the firebombing of Dresden, violated this
criterion of just war theory and thus were gravely immoral. They are manifestly immoral if the intention
was to kill and terrorize civilians. But
they were also immoral even if the intention was to damage military targets,
because the harm to civilians and civilian infrastructure was massively out of
proportion to the good achieved by attacking such military targets.
Now, for
President Trump to warn that “everyone should immediately evacuate Tehran”
indicates that the U.S. and Israel intend a bombing campaign that will cause
massive destruction to the city as a whole.
It is hard to see how that could be consistent with the just war
condition of using only morally legitimate means. This is true, by the way, even if (as is
unlikely) the nearly ten million people of Tehran could in fact be
evacuated. Civilian homes and other
property, and not just civilian lives, must, as far as reasonably possible, be
respected in a just war.
The call for
“unconditional surrender” is also highly problematic. As the Catholic philosopher Elizabeth
Anscombe said of Allied war demands during World War II in her famous essay “Mr.
Truman’s Degree”:
It was the insistence on unconditional surrender that was the
root of all evil. The connection between
such a demand and the need to use the most ferocious methods of warfare will be
obvious. And in itself the proposal of
an unlimited objective in war is stupid and barbarous.
When a
country tells an enemy’s government and citizens that it will settle for
nothing less than their surrender with no conditions at all – thereby putting
themselves entirely at their foes’ mercy – they are obviously bound to fight
more tenaciously and brutally, which will tempt the threatening country to
similarly brutal methods of warfare in response.
The second
criterion of just war theory most relevant to the present crisis is that in
order to be just, a military action must
not result in evils that are worse than the one being redressed. Now, as the history of the aftermath of the
wars in Iraq and Afghanistan shows, regime change in the Middle East is likely
to have catastrophic consequences for all concerned. Both of those conflicts resulted in years of
civil war, tens or even hundreds of thousands of casualties, and, in the case
of Afghanistan, a successor regime hostile to the U.S. As Sohrab Ahmari argues
this week at UnHerd, similar
chaos is bound to follow a collapse of the Iranian regime. Regime change thus seems too radical a war
aim. More limited measures, like those that
have for decades now kept Iran’s nuclear weapons program from succeeding, are
the most that can be justified.
As they routinely
do, Trump’s defenders may suggest that his words should not be taken at face
value, but interpreted as mere “trash talk” or perhaps as exercises in “thinking
out loud” rather than as final policy decisions. But this helps their case not at all. War is, needless to say, an enterprise of
enormous gravity, calling for maximum prudence and moral seriousness. Even speaking about the possibility must be
done with great caution. (Think of the
chaos that could follow upon trying quickly to evacuate a city of nearly ten
million people, even if there were no actual plan to bomb it.) A president who is instead prone to woolly thinking
and flippant speech about matters of war is a president whose judgment about
them cannot be trusted. (And as
I have argued elsewhere, he has already in other ways proven himself to
have unsound judgment about such things.)
It also
should not be forgotten that for Trump to bring the U.S. into a major new war
in the Middle East would be contrary to his own longstanding rhetoric. For example, in 2019 he said:
The United States has spent EIGHT TRILLION DOLLARS fighting
and policing in the Middle East. Thousands of our Great Soldiers have died or
been badly wounded. Millions of people have died on the other side. GOING INTO
THE MIDDLE EAST IS THE WORST DECISION EVER MADE.....
But then, contradictory
and reckless statements are par for the course with Trump. For example, Trump has portrayed himself as
pro-life, but then came
out in support of keeping abortion pills available and of federal funding
for IVF. He promised to bring prices
down, but has
pursued trade policies that are likely to make prices higher. His DOGE project was predicated on the need
to bring federal spending under control, but now he supports a bill that will
add another $3 trillion to the national debt.
And so on. His record is one that
can be characterized as unstable and unprincipled at best and shamelessly dishonest
at worst. This reinforces the conclusion
that his judgment on grave matters such as war cannot be trusted.
I conclude that Trump’s apparent plan to bring the U.S. into Israel’s war with Iran is not justifiable and that he ought to be resisted on this matter (as he ought to be on other matters, such as abortion and IVF).
UPDATE 6/19: UnHerd’s Freddie Sayers interviews John Mearsheimer and Yoram Hazony on the Israel-Iran war. It’s a superb discussion – sober, intelligent, nuanced and well-informed, precisely the opposite of most discourse about these issues. Though coming from very different perspectives, Mearsheimer and Hazony agree that it is better for the U.S. to stay out of the conflict.
While some have claimed that only the U.S. can take out the Iranian facility at Fordow, Hazony disagrees. Moreover, it is uncertain that America’s “bunker buster” bomb really would destroy Fordow. And even if it did, Fordow could be quickly rebuilt, one expert opining that an attack “might set the program back [only] six months to a year.”
Today, White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt claimed that Iran can now within just a couple of weeks produce a nuclear weapon that would “pose an existential threat not just to Israel but to the United States and to the entire world.” Yet she also announced that President Trump would be taking a couple of weeks to decide what to do. Needless to say, her first statement is very hard to take seriously in light of her second statement. Moreover, Trump’s own Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard had recently stated that “Iran is not building a nuclear weapon and Supreme Leader Khamenei has not authorized the nuclear weapons program he suspended in 2003.”
In short, both the case for U.S. intervention, and the administration’s credibility on the issue, appear to be falling apart.
Much of his MAGA base agrees that Trump should keep his hands off of Iran since no Americans have been attacked.
ReplyDeleteThere is evidence he can be persuaded by his supporters , for instance his flip-flop for exempting big Agriculture from ICE enforcement.
Time to keep the heat on while there is still time.
good post.
ReplyDeleteThe Iranian leadership view Israel as the little Satan and the U.S.A. as the great Satan. They have chanted death to America for decades. They want to destroy America and if they get a nuclear bomb there is a good chance that they will find a way eventually to hit America. Preventing that by destroying the underground nuclear site (apparently, the Israelis lack the bunker busters necessary to do this) does fit the criteria of just war theory.
ReplyDeleteWhy would Iran use nuclear weapons against the American mainland, or even its overseas bases?
DeleteThe Iranian leadership knows it would be destroyed in retaliation.
They haven't just called us the great satan, they have literally killed US citizens all over the world, not to mention innocents from other countries. Just remember when they took those sailors prisoners under Obama. They have committed countless provocative acts begging for war over the past decades. They finally got it and I'm not wringing my hands or clutching my pearls.
DeleteShouldn't we address the question of whether Israel's action against Iran is moral according to just war theory?
ReplyDeleteI don't think we'd even be discussing bombing Iran if Israel had not attacked Iran.
Is this serious? Is this a serious question?
DeleteYes
Delete@Anonymous 4:21 AM, why wouldn't it be a serious question? In fact, the most plausible answer is that it wasn't justified, since it happened without a strong cause and while Iran was negotiating with the U.S. It either means that Israel started a war to sabotage the negotiations and force a certain outcome, or that the United States was in the know, so they have made themselves totally unreliable and this destroyed the possibility of future deals.
DeleteWith all due respect, I think Trump’s unprincipled foreign policy is his greatest asset. Unpredictably has been beneficial in that regard.
ReplyDeleteI would note that is entirely possible to urge Iranians to evacuate Iran wholesale despite an intent to only target military assets in Tehran and the evacuation could be merely to minimize collateral damage. I don’t know how close military assets are to residential areas, but that seems common in the Middle East.
I think all of your points are well-stated, but I think Trump should be given the benefit of the doubt for now. Reasonable minds can differ on the prudence of Trump’s tweets. He is not saying anything obviously immoral (like we will nuke Tehran if a deal is not made). As you said, his words seem to “indicate” such and such but they do not explicitly state such and such and can be interpreted more gently. I think Trump aptly plays his cards close to his chest.
I also agree that regime change is generally bad, but the current leaders in Iran cannot get much worse in terms of support of terrorism and hatred of Israel and America. I don’t think Trump wants to bog America down in a regime change war, but he also probably not lose much sleep if their regime topples.
Let’s let the man cook and see what happens.
"I think Trump should be given the benefit of the doubt for now."
DeleteSo the devoted Trumpites always say. "Give the man a chance." We do, it goes terribly, they conveniently forget, rinse, repeat. Definition of idiocy.
I don’t know about that. He is doing pretty well enforcing border policy. He has one of the best records on foreign policy. The tariff crises blew over pretty quickly. Even the spat with Elon Musk ended.
DeleteI think people need to realize they are working with limited information and not panic every time they see Trump do something that perfectly fits with their ideology.
It’s not as if he is actually acting like a Warhawk like previous Republicans and Democrats. He just isn’t acting like a total isolationist either. And that’s okay.
Ok MK
DeleteSaint Genesius of Rome (patron saint of clowns), pray for us!
ReplyDeleteIran has been at war with the US since 1979.
ReplyDeleteTo the "no Americans have been attacked"comment: The Iranian regime has been responsible either directly or indirectly for several attacks through the decades, including the Khobar towers bombing (19 US airmen killed, the US court found Iran liable for supporting Saudi Hezbollah) and the attack on the Erbil consulate (5 US servicemen killed by Iranian Al-Quds operatives); about a third of US casualties in Iraq have been attributed directly or indirectly to Tehran; the Beirut barracks in Lebanon; and so forth. And who was training, supplying weapons and targeting information to the Houthis when attacking the US Navy? (the following from the WSJ, just one example): "The USS Carney destroyer was in the Red Sea when the Houthis launched their first barrage of drones and missiles on Oct. 19, 2023, catching the sailors aboard off guard. By the end of the 10-hour engagement, the crew had endured the most intense combat a U.S. Navy warship had seen in the better part of a century, shooting down more than a dozen drones and four fast-flying cruise missiles."
No, we have not been at war with Iran since 1979. If we were at war starting on November 4 of that year, the war was brought to a close by the Algiers Accords of January 19, 1981, which was followed by the release of the hostages on January 20.
DeleteSo then why has Iran not gotten the memo?
DeleteI agree with Prof. Feser on all the Just War arguments, but believe that the US is inextricably involved already, as are a great many other players, large and small. This video is very illuminating as context for this terrible conflict - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG2A201_wDE
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything you say, Prof.
ReplyDeleteJust for clarification though unrelated to this,
If it has been determined that a particular civilian infrastructure like a mosque or a particular building is being used to carry out terrorist activities that have been the source of a lot of attacks on another country's soil, wouldn't that become a legitimate target, since in this case the nature of the infrastructure is decidedly terrorist even if it may be being used by civilians as cover. As such wouldn't it be ok to target this infrastructure albeit with a lot of precision. Does that make sense?
I am not saying that this is the situation in Iran but just in general, it seemed relevant.
Would appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers
Norm
My sense is that it would be legitimate to attack such a target surgically, using special forces for example, going room by room to clear the structure of terrorists specifically.
DeleteIf such an operation isn’t possible, and the terrorist threat is grave, it would seem possible that under double effect, the structure could be targeted foreseeing civilians causalities but not directly intending them. I would think that the grave terrorist threat would have to be specific and with reasonable certainty could be stopped by the attack. It wouldn’t do to just say “oh terrorists are hanging out there” for the foreseeable deaths of civilians requires the evil to be prevented to be grave and certain.
I’m not a moral theologian but tvats my sense of it.
Hello Just Another Opinion
DeleteThanks for the Opinion!
Look, I have a high respect for the moral seriousness of the Catholic just war tradition, but I also know that philosophers and theologians usually aren't particularly well-informed on historical matters, and G. E. M. Anscombe is no exception. I'm not talking about her opposition to the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; I don't really see how a Christian could support them. But blaming area bombing or atomic bombing on the Allied demand for unconditional surrender is pure historical ignorance. Notice that Japan's brutal occupation of East Asia (including the tens of millions killed in China) plays no role whatsoever in her analysis, and since for Anscombe (as for for so many others with grand opinions about WWII) China does not exist, the demand that Japan surrender unconditionally, forsaking its imperial claims on China, Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam, the Philippines, etc., seems excessive. Nor does the Holocaust in relation to Nazi Germany get more than a passing mention. When dealing with a criminal regime that is actively perpetrating horrific crimes, it makes no sense to settle for anything less than justice (do police allow criminals to bargain out a shorter jail sentence as a condition for their arrest?). The claim that "When a country tells an enemy’s government and citizens that it will settle for nothing less than their surrender with no conditions at all... they are obviously bound to fight more tenaciously and brutally," was objective false in the German case outside a hard core of Nazi fanatics, and Japanese propaganda had already invented a fate worse than death in the event of Japanese defeat, and would have continued to invent imaginary stakes in order to keep the troops fighting. And, while the atomic bombings certainly helped pust Japan towards unconditional surrender (which, as it happens, wasn't actually unconditional), I've never seen any evidence that area bombing was part of a calculated plan to achieve unconditional surrender that would otherwise have never been resorted to; the British were doing it long before unconditional surrender was a feasible goal, and the Nazis (who were not interested in Britain's unconditional surrender, only its withdrawal from the war) had already resorted to it during the Blitz.
ReplyDeleteThis is all probably somewhat irrelevant to the point you're making here, and I think your analysis of the situation in 2025 is spot-on. But some historical myths need to die.
Thurible,
DeleteThat was a well argued and nuanced critique regarding unconditional surrender. Well worth considering.
There has been something that bothers me every time I read your posts though that distracts me.
Is that avatar Shaggy from Scooby Doo? And why "The Great Thurible of Darkness"?
It is precisely because of the just war theory that Iran should not have a nuclear weapon. That also goes for any number of unstable and warlike countries. No one, even our adversaries, wants a rogue nation loose with an atomic bomb. Bringing up the subject of Dresden, Hiroshima, etc. is irrelevant and simply clouds the issue. Final note. Ukraine was a responsible nation but they gave up nuclear weapons based on a promise that the bad guys would not honor and the good guys would not enforce.
DeleteAn who decides who is an unstable, warlike country?
DeleteIn 1964, Communist China was regarded as an unstable, warlike country. Mao was considered as unhinged as the Iranian mullahs are now. He said that World War I led to the Bolshevik Revolution and Russia becoming Communist and World War II led to Eastern Europe and China becoming Communist, so World War III might also be good for the Communist cause. Do people think it was a mistake for us not to have launched a preemptive strike to prevent China from developing nuclear weapons?
Deletelol at 'warlike countries'. who hasn't had a war in 250 years? and who's had about 18-20 in the past 100?
Delete"since for Anscombe (as for for so many others with grand opinions about WWII) China does not exist, the demand that Japan surrender unconditionally, forsaking its imperial claims on China, Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam, the Philippines, etc., seems excessive." - why would that require unconditional surrender? Simply demand that Japan would give up "its imperial claims on China, Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam, the Philippines, etc.", and you have it in "conditional surrender".
DeleteDemand for "unconditional surrender" means that after the war you can demand anything at all. By demanding it USA kept the option to execute the emperor, abolish Japanese monarchy, annex Japan, abolish its industry etc. You might note that none of those options were used. They were paid for in blood, and then they were not used.
So, the demand for "unconditional surrender" had little to do with evil of Hitler or Japanese regime.
It had a lot more to do with the Allies having conflicting goals and interests (perhaps also with politicians being somewhat lazy and thinking being hard work).
A few points:
ReplyDelete• The senior Israeli officials – including Netanyahu – consistently declare that they are not aiming to topple the regime (whether they truly mean it or not – that is their consistent official stance).
• Even Israeli actors who are not seeking regime change – but only to neutralize the nuclear threat – understand that regime collapse as a result of attacks is a natural by-product (the fall of Syria following Hezbollah's defeat is a precedent for such a domino effect...). Even if Shorab isn’t particularly fond of that outcome – it may well be what’s going to happen anyway… (and in such a scenario, those who believe Iran is close to acquiring a bomb cannot fairly blame Israel for the political outcome; the blame lies first and foremost with the Iranians – and then with the recent Democratic administrations over the years, who tried to ‘appease’ Iran, remained agnostic regarding the nuclear issue, and pretended the Iranian regime had no imperialist jihadist ambitions, etc.)
• The justification of war is a highly complex issue that constantly requires moving between theory and application… Sometimes, it is only through application that one can discern a pathway to justifying an act of war. The exploration of such applicable paths is a matter of the highest moral importance, because otherwise we risk creating a human incentive system that encourages and rewards violence and injustice. Therefore, the question is not only whether there are scenarios that undermine the morality of war, but also whether there are scenarios that justify it.
• As things currently stand, there is a possible scenario that could justify a specific military action by the US – namely, the bombing of one central reactor that the Israelis likely cannot handle on their own. This scenario (like many war-related issues) is not clear-cut: on the one hand, it would (apparently) not harm civilians and would neutralize a nuclear bomb (an issue you yourself have acknowledged as important); on the other hand, it may very well be ‘the straw that breaks the camel’s back’ in terms of regime collapse – a matter that’s difficult to assess... But practically, this means there may be a scenario in which a particular act of war (targeting the last reactor) can be morally justified – and this scenario cannot be categorically dismissed (and from a certain natural law perspective, it might even be seen as a moral obligation…)
• Since a morally mistaken reading in the context of justified wars can itself lead to destructive moral outcomes, it may be worthwhile to qualify the claim somewhat. Alongside the question mark surrounding the justification of war, it’s important to note that even if a particular military action is justified under certain circumstances, it must still be carried out proportionally in all necessary aspects: with a legitimate aim, without significant civilian harm, ensuring the Americans are genuinely interested only in this specific action, and that they do not have broader strategic interests.
In any event, it is Israel rather than the U.S. that would be threatened by such acquisition, and Israel has proven quite capable of taking care of itself. There is no need for the U.S. to enter the war, and it is in neither the U.S.’s interests nor the interests of the rest of the region for it to do so.
DeleteThere is no reason to go further than this to object to the US taking any action if it is true. If Israel could not indeed take care of itself, then why did it start the conflict? Wouldn't that be violation of just war theory?
Yes. Barbarous and stupid. Saint Thomas Aquinas couldn't have defined the Trump administration better.
ReplyDeleteThe unpredictability factor is an interesting view. I am not convinced of its' usefulness. Iran seems genocidal in its' hatred towards Israel---I don't know if this is true of all Iranians. Whatever the American involvement in this war turns out to be, I would hope it is completely vetted by strategists who know the total ramifications.
ReplyDeleteTo me, involvement in the war ought to=congressional approval . I am told that is in the Constitution. This President has usurped a great deal of power, in my opinion. Legislators and the Judiciary are fully aware
of this. Inasmuch as Iran seems bent on genocide, Israel has the right of self-preservation, I think. Much of this goes back to ideology: Islamic and Jewish peoples just don't get along. To be fair, we might consider the notion that Israel is also bent on genocide. Or, maybe that is not being fair?
This argument seems a bit sloppy and rushed.
ReplyDeleteHmmmmph.
DeleteThank you, Dr. Feser. I agree completely. Fantastic post. It's is this kind of intelligent commentary that keeps me returning to your blog (and reading your books). You must be a workaholic, you're very prolific.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with most of this post by Professor Feser, I would raise one question that I do not think is mentioned.. The problem is that if the Iranians are pursuing a nuclear weapon and the major facilities are buried deep underground in a population center it seems conceivable that the destruction of this could meet the just war criteria even if loss of civilian life would ensue. This would depend on a host of contingent factors such as how close Iran was to obtaining a nuclear weapon, their intentions if they were to procure one ( although given the terrorist supporting activities of this regime in the past one could reasonably assume they are not merely defensive), and so forth. If destruction of these facilities was contemplated it seems like a warning to the civilian population might make sense ( again depending on whether or not more lives would be lost in the attack versus panicked attempt to evacuate. None of this is meant to justify Trump's rhetoric or apparent lack of careful thought about any of this. The point is more that if the United States is the only one with the capability to destroy deep underground nuclear sites, than a destruction of these sites may be justified depending on the degree of civilian harm and the accuracy of the information that such sites exist and can be destroyed.
ReplyDeleteThe nuclear facilities in question are under mountains and not under population centers
DeleteI give Trump a lot of slack. So, for instance, I don't find his statement that Tehran should be evacuated to be particularly problematic on its own.
ReplyDeleteLet's say that there is a strong likelihood that bunker busters are going to be dropped by either Israel or the US to take out nuclear enrichment plants buried deep under specific spots in Iran. Even though this doesn't threaten the entire city, it would not be prudent for Trump to announce publicly ahead of time which exact locations are likely to be hit, and it would be prudent to let civilians know to get far away from the potential sites in general. It also puts more pressure on the Iranian regime to relent and makes it clear to them that Trump's ultimatums during negotiation are not idle, which is good in this context.
I similarly cut him slack on the "Big Beautiful Bill," which cuts spending relative to the baseline (that is, there would be more spending if it's not passed than if it is), and I think does so as much as possible in a reconciliation bill while still keeping his other promises (such as fixing our immigration crisis). The debt projections are partly based on assumptions about tax revenues that I believe to be incorrect.
However, I'm worried that the sum total of action and rhetoric by the Trump administration and Israel do seem to be moving in the direction of another regime change war, with little thought to how we would deal with the fallout of such an outcome. To the extent that this is the case, I do think it is important for people on the right to make loud and clear that such an outcome is not acceptable, which many sober MAGA-aligned minds are thankfully doing.
I would add that neither Israel nor the United States have provided any proof that this is a preemptive war instead of a preventative war. So far, I have not seen any evidence that Iran intends to use a nuclear weapon against Israel. Rather, Sr leadership (Tulsi Gabbard in March and JD Vance in May) has repeatedly said that Iran does not have a nuclear weapon and doubted that Iran intends to produce one.
ReplyDeletePoint of distinction: Aren't prevention and preemption roughly the same? Terms are tricky. Word salad needs the right sort of dressing. Just sayin'...
ReplyDeleteIn the little bit of literature on just war that I've read, the terms seem used inconsistently. Predominately, however, a preventative war is one to prevent a possible attack in the future. In contrast, a preemptive war is one to prevent a threat that is present, and actively in motion.
DeleteI would not be surprised if the majority of the Iranian people would like a regime change. Not all regime changes are bad. For example, the Poles, the Hungarians, and the Czechs are much better off now than they were under the domination of the U.S.S.R. A new regime in Iran that did not have a nuclear weapon or a desire to obtain one would almost certainly be an improvement for the entire Near East, not just Israel.
ReplyDeleteI find this basically persuasive.
ReplyDeleteI find the following a much more difficult question, though: the US enters the war to use its bunker busters to destroy a carefully targeted nuclear development site that Israel cannot destroy. The US then exits the war, with no further demands from Iran.
I'm no just war theorist, and maybe this violates something too. But it seems not to have the same problems described above.
SMack,
DeleteYou've indicated, correctly, that by dropping the bombs the US has indeed entered the war. If the war is unjust, then it follows that the US has entered an unjust war.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Deletebmiller,
DeleteThe war is (putatively) unjust, however, because (1) it would target civilians, and (2) it would cause worse problems than it solved, via the evils of regime change.
In my hypothetical scenario, neither condition would hold, and so the argument given that the war was unjust would not succeed. To conclude that the war was unjust on those hypotheses, one would need other arguments.
SMack,
DeleteI wrote "bingo" after your comment, but it came in after bmiller's comment (which was written before mine but not yet posted) so I removed it. You are laying out how the bombing of a nuclear facility could be carried out without targeting civilians or enmeshing the US in a boots on the ground scenario.
In terms of justice, the situation is analogous to having a sociopath who has almost assembled a machine gun who constantly tells those around him that he will destroy them when it is assembled. The sociopath lashes out with lesser weapons at every opportunity and is a credible threat who would be a far more serious threat with the machine gun. Someone who is significantly stronger has the ability to destroy his progress in assembling the machine gun which will make him angrier. However, the angrier sociopath without the machine gun is far less dangerous to his neighbors and the broader neighborhood than he would be with a machine gun. In such a scenario it would be just to destroy the weapon just as it would be to knock a knife or gun out of someone's hand who is threatening you. The U.S. has not merely the right but the duty to knock the knife or gun out of Iran's hand. To think that Iran with a nuclear weapon is merely Israel's problem is naive. If Iran drops a nuclear weapon ANYWHERE in the world, it is in fact the world's problem.
SMack,
DeleteAs it stands in now, Dr Feser considers it would be unjust for the US to get involved for the 2 reasons you mentioned. But it seems that the US would not be initiating either of those 2 actions, only joining Israel in those unjust actions.
Since you first mentioned that the US would be entering "the war" and exiting "the war" I thought you meant the war as it exists today.
I think your scenario is something like the US doing our own pre-emptive strike on just the isolated nuclear facilities and nothing more without Israel being involved in a war against Iran at all. Because if Israel is already attacking Iran, I don't think we can plausibly say we are not involving ourselves in that fight.
Dr Feser's original argument is that he is skeptical that Iran actually isn't close to having a nuclear weapon at this time but even if it is, we don't have sufficient reason to take it out since Israel can do it.
Thank you, Michael. Pending any persuasive counter-arguments, I agree.
Deletebmiller, Dr. Feser concluded the war would be unjust not based on anything Israel has done, but based on his interpretation of what Trump *would* do (based, in turn, on Trump's words).
It may be that Israel is already pursuing an unjust war, but nothing Dr. Feser said implied that such is the case, and it would require a separate argument.
For example, Dr. Feser did not accuse Israel of targeting Iranian civilians (and if someone else has, I am not aware); that concern was rather based on Trump's warning that people should evacuate Tehran.
So I don't accept your contention that it has been established -- even accepting Dr. Feser's argument -- that the war, as it exists *today*, is an unjust war.
I just saw Dr. Feser's update. I of course agree that factual questions, such as whether we could *actually* destroy the nuclear site with a bunker buster, are very important. But my moral question was asked under the assumption that we probably could, and that the damage would be devastating.
DeleteSMack,
DeleteI agree that Dr Feser did not accuse Israel of the things he criticized Trump for possibly doing but he should have. I doubt Trump was threatening to target civilians (otherwise why warn them) anymore than Israel is actually doing and killing the leadership is something Israel has been doing.
That's why it seems to me that if Dr Feser's argument succeeds against Trump it cannot fail to also succeed against Israel without some special pleading.
I agree that the actual effect of a bunker buster on Fordow is important and uncertainty that the bomb would entirely destroy it would affect our choices. But I would point out that we don't need to know that the bomb would entirely destroy it in order to have reasonable confidence of its ability to disrupt operations: They've got hundreds of centrifuges running at VERY high speeds: if you jostle those babies even a bit, you're going to get a lot of wrecked equipment. And even if we are not certain of how much destruction it would bring about, Iranians also cannot be certain that the facility would survive our attack, which concern might bring them into discussions.
DeleteFeser comments also that
And even if it did, Fordow could be quickly rebuilt, one expert opining that an attack “might set the program back [only] six months to a year.”
I find this completely unpersuasive: First "one expert" says A, and other experts say not-A, who's to say which ones are right. And if they DID rebuild it and get it running in 6 months to a year, we could just bomb it again! Duh! I bet we can build a bunker-buster faster than they can rebuild the facility - and for a lot less money.
In practice, if the facility get's damaged enough to disrupt operations, they aren't going to simply rebuild it the very same way they already did, because we could just bomb it again, and they aren't THAT stupid. So, they would have to re-think how to build it, and (knowing how governments work) it is extremely likely that it would take longer than 6 months, very likely longer than a year. The 6-month number is wildly implausible under even the best conditions, and they probably won't be operating under those.
And in that time...who knows what else may have been done to change Iran's will or capacity to continue along this direction?
I don't know whether Israel is pursuing an unjust war, but the mere fact of their fighting with Iran is not unjust on their part. It might be imprudent for us to join with them to help them secure their peaceful existence, but that's a pretty complicated matter about which even devout, well-informed men might disagree.
Moreover, Trump’s own Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard had recently stated that “Iran is not building a nuclear weapon and Supreme Leader Khamenei has not authorized the nuclear weapons program he suspended in 2003.”
If you can't trust the Trump Administration on the other things, why can you trust it on this? Obviously they are contradicting each other, so somebody is wrong, and probably somebody is lying. We would need to have a better understanding of the context of these statements by Gabbard and Vance to know whether they might have been "editing" the truth from other motives, just as we have done to examine such claims by others.
so somebody is wrong, and probably somebody is lying.
DeleteI think we should take into account that the somebody that could be wrong or lying could be the news sources. Especially in times of war.
Gabbard is complaining that her testimony and position is being mis-reported to sow division within the administration.
"The dishonest media is intentionally taking my testimony out of context and spreading fake news as a way to manufacture division," Gabbard wrote. "America has intelligence that Iran is at the point that it can produce a nuclear weapon within weeks to months, if they decide to finalize the assembly. President Trump has been clear that can't happen, and I agree."
https://www.newsweek.com/tulsi-gabbard-reacts-after-trump-said-she-was-wrong-about-iran-2088685
Professor Ed makes a lot of good points, but a few pretty sizable mistakes, too, in my opinion. First, I agree with:
ReplyDeleteFirst, for a war to be just, it must be fought using only morally legitimate means.
True. And if it is intended from the start to be fought with illegitimate means, then it’s immoral from the start.
(Just as a quibble: just means is usually cited as an issue AFTER going over “just cause” as the first principle, so just means wouldn’t ordinarily be “First, for a war to be just…”. But that’s unimportant.)
It is the standard view among just war theorists that attacks such as the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the firebombing of Dresden, violated this criterion of just war theory and thus were gravely immoral.
I agree. There are certain matters insufficiently explored (under just war theory) as to “civilian” deaths and loss of property, but that’s not important here.
But this helps their case not at all. War is, needless to say, an enterprise of enormous gravity, calling for maximum prudence and moral seriousness. Even speaking about the possibility must be done with great caution.
I agree.
It also should not be forgotten that for Trump to bring the U.S. into a major new war in the Middle East would be contrary to his own longstanding rhetoric.
I agree.
I conclude that Trump’s apparent plan to bring the U.S. into Israel’s war with Iran is not justifiable and that he ought to be resisted on this matter (as he ought to be on other matters, such as abortion and IVF).
I agree.
However, I note that “go to war with Iran” is not the same thing as “taking action against Iran”. For example, when Iran destroyed a US guided missile frigate with mines in 1988, the US sent a retaliatory strike against the Iranian navy, one that basically beat up a large portion of the Iranian navy. No general war resulted: Iran rattled its saber, the US demonstrated its saber-busting capacity, and then both parties backed off. President Obama unleashsed a cyberattack on Iranian nuclear facilities in 2012 that didn’t result in a war. I don’t think I know what measures short of war are or might be warranted, and I doubt most of us do know. I would prefer peaceful means, but I don’t think it’s easy to verify treaty deals are actually in compliance.
Now, as to my objections:
In any event, it is Israel rather than the U.S. that would be threatened by such acquisition, and Israel has proven quite capable of taking care of itself.
This is one of the worst, as it’s wrong on multiple fronts, and importantly wrong. Israel is certainly more immediately at risk from an Iran with nuclear bombs than the US is, in terms of time. But Iran leadership has focused plenty of attention at the evils of the US and our (approximate) status in the world, calling us the great satan, and has evinced many times explicit intention to do great harm to us. The “mere” having of nukes doesn’t mean Iran can reach the US with them, but (a) it’s a big, big step towards being able to get nukes to us, and (b) not all of our important interests are separated from Iran by 6,500 miles and an ocean. We have military bases much closer.
Secondly, Israel can defend itself well in part because it is allowed to get plenty of military hardware from the US. Like Ukraine, Israel cannot do it entirely “on its own”, i.e. without our support.
I do know that the claim that such acquisition is imminent has been made for decades now, and yet it has still not happened.
Oh, for goodness sake! The US, Israel, and others, have also been for decades taking active steps to interfere with Iran getting nuclear material and the bomb. Can you honestly say that you have sifted the details and timelines to verify that all of the claims were bogus?
Thank you, Dr. Feser, for expressing what too many on the right have been unwilling to confront: that restraint, not escalation, should guide U.S. policy in the Middle East — especially when nuclear fears are invoked as a pretext for military involvement.
ReplyDeleteYou rightly note that while the prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran is serious, that concern cannot justify indiscriminate or disproportionate use of force. A bombing campaign that threatens a city the size of Tehran — especially coupled with talk of “unconditional surrender” — risks violating the moral principles that have traditionally guided just war theory. It also invites strategic catastrophe and humanitarian disaster.
I’m especially struck by your warning about rhetoric. Even if we assume, charitably, that some of the president’s language is bluster, the global consequences of such speech are real. When a leader discusses war in flippant or erratic terms, it undermines trust, destabilizes alliances, and increases the chance of escalation through miscalculation.
It’s not enough to oppose bad wars after they’ve begun. We need moral clarity and intellectual honesty before they start. Your piece provides both — and I hope more conservatives take notice.
I completely agree with your analysis of the proposed military action in Iran but Trump is still a great President. Speaking from a European perspective, I sometimes think Americans don't appreciate the importance of the "bully pulpit" to the rest of the world. It's harder to stigmatise non-woke views as "far right" or "extremist" when they are embraced by a President who won in a near-landslide of 340 million people in the most advanced country in the world. And then there are things like all the leftist scams and propaganda mills that collapsed when USAID funding was withdrawn. Vance's speech at the Munich security conference felt like the cavalry coming to friends of free speech and religious freedom here. I'd be very, very careful about undermining the MAGA movement in any way.
ReplyDeleteTrump has obviously decided that near-unconditional support for Israel is a necessity. I don't know why. He understands the dynamics of power better than most. I do not expect he is going to get into a full-scale war with Iran. I'm extremely sympathetic to Israel myself, but I still think Trump should avoid foreign adventures, especially in the Middle East.
It's not just the threat to Israel though is it? If Iran got the bomb it would encourage a nuclear arms race in the middle east. Saudi would want the bomb as well.
ReplyDeleteWhat would actual “unconditional surrender” likely entail for Iran in this situation? Besides laying down its arms, certainly abandonment of uranium enrichment (the only purpose for which is to produce nuclear weapons), cessation of its ballistic missile program and forfeiting of its arsenal, acceptance for the foreseeable future of an unrestricted inspection regime, ending its proxy war against Israel, ending its support for terrorism internationally, and renouncing its goal of destroying Israel. Do these requirements, individually or together, amount in any way to unjust demands, given Iran’s history of aggression towards Israel since 1979? These demands don’t target the populace or the future well-being of the nation, just the regime’s ability ongoing efforts to sow suffering and chaos beyond its borders. I can’t see that they would provoke fanatical resistance except perhaps among the minority of true believers, which would only confirm the heinous nature of the regime and its supporters and demonstrate the need for its removal. (As the widespread protests of recent years have demonstrated, the regime is very unpopular, and Israel reportedly is making a concerted effort to persuade the populace that its target is the regime, not the Iranian nation or society.) As to the warfighting measures being used by Israel, and those that the US would likely apply should it enter, they are worlds apart from the Allies’ indiscriminate fire bombing of population centers and use of nuclear weapons in WWII referenced by Elizabeth Anscombe. The only likely addition to the list of surrender demands, it seems to me, would be a requirement for regime change (that is, the internal overthrow of the regime), given the unlikelihood of the Mullahs agreeing to these terms of surrender, or of actually abiding by them going forward. I agree that regime change could very well lead to ongoing chaos in Iran and the region. Yet Iran is currently ruled by a regime already virulently hostile to the West (and allied to the principal adversaries of the US); the people of Iran currently suffer from brutal repression; and the region from ongoing threats, terrorism and chaos. It is hard to imagine it getting much worse. Which raises the question: at what point does a nation demonstrating a resolute commitment to the destruction of another country forfeit its right to sovereignty?
ReplyDeleteWhat does Trump mean by "unconditional surrender"?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/CBSNews/videos/trump-asked-what-he-means-by-his-call-for-irans-unconditional-surrender/1047110207490568/
It apparently doesn't mean anything like the demands put on Japan and Germany during WW2. It seems to be in regards to the negotiations with Iran on what part of their nuclear development they can keep.
Ed, one of the reasons people love and respect your work (myself included) is because you stand for what is right. Thank you for being such an honest writer and philosopher.
ReplyDeleteAlso, one issue for the Republicans is the fact that this action is an uncautious move towards a war that is not even theirs to begin with (i.e., Israel vs Iran), and this will still mark the party as "warmongers," just like in the Vietnam era.
Another issue is that one of the talks that purportedly motivated Trump against Biden was the fact that Biden was sending a huge amount of money to supply Ukraine against Russia -- in other words, putting his nose in a war that is not the US's problem. Still, now, the problem is that Trump is intending to put his nose in a war between Israel and Iran! It's not an American war! Let Israel fend for itself. America really needs to deal with its internal enemies and problems before thinking about sending support to another country. True Americans should be the first priority of the US as a whole.
Would you also agree that it is bad that Israel already possesses nuclear weapons? Can you see how this might look from Tehran?
ReplyDeleteIsrael's never used them in decades. Ever, in fact. Israel has never called for the destruction of another country whereas Iran has repeatedly shown vehement hostility toward Israel.
DeleteIsrael has had nuclear weapons since (probably) 1966. Despite being attacked by their neighbours many times during the last 60 years, they have never used them. Your comment draws a false equivalence.
ReplyDelete"Yet she also announced that President Trump would be taking a couple of weeks to decide what to do."
ReplyDeleteAt least a week may be needed for positioning all the ships, planes, antiaircraft equipment, etc. that will be required for protecting US allies in the region (Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc.) and for keeping the Strait of Hormuz open to navigation after Fordow is bombed.
In any case, nobody expects a country that is planning to bomb another (with or without just cause, that is not the point) to tell them the exact day the bombing will start if there are no civilians near the sites that will be bombed, as is the case in Fordow. (Although, as a matter of fact, the 60-day limit that Trump gave to Iran to make a deal did point exactly to the beginning of Operation Rising Lion.)
Ed,
ReplyDeleteI listened to part of what Mearsheimer's comments. He lies habitually about Israel (the Gaza genocide etc; the media have had to back track on so many "news" reports already in that clash but Mearsheimer continues to peddle the stuff like some people peddle the long discredited Russia hoax). He claims in that interview that Israel and USA cannot prevent Iran from getting the bomb. Iran won't get the bomb and he will be wrong (again). In any case, surely you are not claiming that because Mearsheimer and Hazony (and I do respect Hazony as a thoughtful voice on national conservatism even if I differ from him somewhat), say that US should not get involved that means the US should not get involved. Other noted experts disagree. If Iran's bomb was several months away, it does not follow that it would be wrong to stop it now--as has happened elsewhere a number of times in history, beginning with the destruction of heavy water plants in WW2. Nor is stopping a bomb for 6 months to a year futile. And if Israel could stop Iran's nuclear bomb by itself, it DOES NOT follow inexorably that the US should not get involved--that is a non sequitur.
Ed,
ReplyDeleteI have now listened to Yoram Hazony's section of the interview. He was very insightful as usual (I have read his book, the virtue of nationalism, and seen videos of him before). From what I heard, he would see nothing wrong with U.S. dropping bunker busters on Fordow. Am I wrong? Hazony explicitly gives Trump tremendous credit in that interview. Is he wrong?
Underlying this whole discussion is a basic question of when and how a country should be able to have a nuclear program to produce nukes, and then when / how the rest of the world is supposed to make countries comply with a possible "should NOT be able to have". The old non-proliferation treaty was signed in 1968, but notably 4 important countries have not signed it and are not technically bound by it, i.e. India, Pakistan, North Korea, and Israel. These non-signers, and India in particular, have stated the position that the treaty holds the first few nations to have gotten the bomb first in special status and holds the rest of the world in subordinate (even subservient) positions to those few, it is manifestly unequal in treatment of nations.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, the whole world (including the 180 non-nuclear nations who have co-signed the treaty) benefits by not having rogue nations with the bomb, and the threat to peace this would entail.
Importantly, India stands as a signal counterexample to this point: just because a nation wasn't a nuclear power in 1968 doesn't mean it is a rogue nation or teetering on the brink of it. And the break-up of the Soviet Union - with the creation of numerous nuclear-capable states from it (not all of which are wholly stable) is another kind of example.
Even when a nuclear state is involved in a serious shouting match or low-grade war with another nuclear state, there is no guarantee that this means it will result in a nuclear exchange. The US and Soviets were both involved in Vietnam without nukes. India and Pakistan have had several tussles since they both became nuclear bomb states, without a nuclear exchange. These events certainly are uncomfortable situations, and the world might be better off if NOBODY had the bomb, but since none of the nuclear states is presently willing to eschew them altogether, there is no significant traction to complete eradication of them. Given that, we have to figure out how to manage a world that has them, and this means a world in which some states we would rather not have them will still have them. We would rather Pakistan not have them, but we still do business with them.
So then it comes down to whether Iran stands so far down the road to instability, and/or has such hatred of some other states, that it is SUFFICIENTLY unlike other nuclear states in whether it might defy world opinion to achieve success in war through nukes that it would use them where no other nuclear state would. And about that, reasonable men might differ, but critically, I don't know if there is good, reliable basis for confidence that they would NOT. Is that condition a sufficient moral basis for stable nuclear states treating them differently than they do India, Pakistan, and Israel, and insisting (even to the extent of direct military attacks) that they shall not get the bomb? This is an area of natural law that has not been well explored - when preemptive attacks are warranted and under what conditions. Obviously, conditions like a state explicitly supporting terrorism and fomenting war on enemy states via proxies is the kind of behavior that would tend toward a positive answer to the "when and under what conditions" of above, if any positive answer is ever morally supported. Also obviously, crafting a treaty with them that represents a system of carrots and sticks to encourage them to not become nuclear states only works well (a) if the terms can be verified, and (b) only for such time as the constrained state cares more about the carrots and sticks than getting nukes. North Korea and Iran HAVE BEEN the subject of such treaties, and those treaties have not lasted very long.
North Korea is an interesting example.
DeleteIsn't the US technically still at war with North Korea? Why would they not be an existential threat to the US and Iran would be?
Well, we have treated N. Korea with similar treatment as Iran, at least to an extent: we have compressed their options and pushed them into a treaty that they otherwise would not have accepted, in 1994. The deal broke down subsequently, as might have been expected by many, but that later fact doesn't by itself negate the attempt to use peaceful means. We have also considered using force to destroy their facilities, but (a) North Korea maintains one of the largest standing armies in the world, and (b) the border is only 35 miles from Seoul, i.e. spitting distance in modern war. So the level of reprisal risk to massive population and a main ally in the region is grave.
DeleteSimilarly, we made a deal with Iran in 2015, but we withdrew from it (under Trump) in 2018 with a claim that (among other things) Iran had, without disclosure, continued or re-started a prior covert nuclear development program not in compliance with the agreement. The claim was contested by Iran, not surprisingly. The details may be difficult to parse for non-experts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMAD_Project
Why would they not be an existential threat to the US
As I implied in my post, just war theory envisions that a country may go to war with "just cause", where that term "just cause" is explicitly understood to comprise a wider set of possible causes than that the country is under an immediate existential threat. An obvious one would be threats that gravely undermine a country's religion. Another might be to so undermine its ordinary way of life such that it would have to change in fundamental ways to survive. A landlocked country might go to war to enforce the right to trade with other countries freely. And in general, "existential threat" can be understood to refer to a long-term threat along the lines of "if this (damaging) action continues for (some considerable time of several years or even decades), we could not survive". (Such a long-term threat could (arguably) be a just cause, but the decision to go to war would still have to answer to the other criteria as well, e.g. "all other means of resolution are unavailing", etc, and so normally it is very difficult for such a long-term threat to represent a just cause that ACTUALLY justifies war in the present.)
Tony,
DeleteThe way I read your opinion is:
"It's complicated."
I agree. Glad God did not choose to put me in the position to have to make these types of decisions. I'll leave it in His hands.
An excellent post. Thank you.
Delete
ReplyDeleteThere will always be great tension in settling out when to act in a warlike affair if (a) you are not directly under overt attack right now; and (b) but there are many indicators that someone inimical to your interests (or existence) is planning and even pursuing the early components of an attack. In classical times, just war theory clearly envisioned just war where the nation that initiates the fighting does so not because they have been attacked with fighting, , but because they have been subjected to unjust conditions that present just cause of war (and the other criteria of ius ad bellum have been met). Metaphorically, holding a gun to someone's head without pulling the trigger might be represented as "not attacking" them, but it obviously is a condition representing just use of violent force to overturn that condition. (And if memory serves, Prof. Feser has explicitly made this general point in the past).
So, questions of whether we SHOULD enter into warlike activities is broader than "have we been attacked", and must consider whether the other country is engaged in plans and activities whose patent purpose is to attack us, and then must weigh imminence with (several) other factors. Just war theory puts heavy emphasis on avoiding war when other avenues might succeed, but that criterion must be applied in the real world where "might succeed" is taken with the real experience of the past both in general matters of nations' behavior, and with the specific nation at hand, not some idealistic "there might have been some far-fetched possibility not yet tried" level of "might" that could NEVER be fully satisfied in the real world. How has Iran acted over the last 47 years?
From GeorgeLeS
ReplyDeleteIt was the insistence on unconditional surrender that was the root of all evil. The connection between such a demand and the need to use the most ferocious methods of warfare will be obvious.
_______
Frankly Anscombe is out of her depth here. Population bombing was a standard part of airpower theory, back to WWI. "Unconditional surrender" really had nothing to do with it.
This part of the argument - that the latter was the origin of the former - is flat out nonsense. (And it didn't work in WWII, anyway.)
Bombs away. Trump and Hegseth listened to Gen. Kurilla, as many thought he would.
ReplyDeleteAnd we're at war. God help us all!
ReplyDeleteNo, even though I despise Trump and didn't vote for him, I actually think this will bring Iran to the bargaining table. I hate to say this, but Trump may succeed in removing Iran as a threat to the peace in the Middle East.
DeleteMaybe, or perhaps it leads to strikes on American bases, killing US personnel. Or perhaps it leads to strikes on Saudi oil fields, causing oil prices to skyrocket and causing severe economic damage to the United States.
DeleteWe don’t really know for sure what to expect. Trump is calling for regime change. If Iran regime’s back is against the wall, perhaps they will decide to go down guns blazing.
The United States makes up its foreign policy on the run. Its head of state lies through his teeth. It's intelligence agency says night is day, then day is night, just to please its baby President. It bombs a country just because it chants rude things about the US and Tel Aviv. In short, a truly rogue regime that makes .Ayatollah Khamenei looks like Mother Teresa in comparison. If US citizens don't get out and fiercely protest their regime, they are going to have to wear it. No more excuses.
ReplyDeleteAyatollah Khamenei looks like Mother Teresa in comparison.
DeleteWow, hyperventilate much? I don't remember Mother Teresa sending bombs over to Israel. Or training and supporting terrorists.
Trump bombing specific nuclear facilities makes him not only worse than Iran bombing a hospital, but worse by more than the degree Khamenei is worse than Mother Teresa? You make yourself ridiculous.
Miguel, It is totally unacceptable to equate, actually to imply that the Ayatollah regime is a better place than America. A bit of gratefulness wouldn't hurt
ReplyDeleteAs I write, the USA has conducted a raid limited to three nuclear sites and we have not had the official bomb damage assessment. Iran retaliated with what seems to be merely a face-saving missile attack at a U.S. base. The U.S. intercepted all of those missiles and there were no U.S. casualties. Saudia Arabia and one or two other governments have now condemned the attack on Iran, and none of Iran's allies (Hezbollah, the Houtis, Hamas) have done anything in retaliation. If Trump's first term is any indication, he will not respond to this missile attack by Iran [John Boulton failed to get Trump to attack Iran in a similar situation]. Israel will continue to degrade the Iranian military which will lessen their grip on the populace. There is a significant chance that the Iranian regime either will "drink the poisoned chalice" as Khomenei did in regard to Iran's war with Iraq (on the advise of Ali Khamenei no less) or that there will be a new regime less hostile to America and Israel.
ReplyDeleteContinuing with comments about the new situation.
ReplyDeleteIn both Trump and Biden administrations, several Arab countries were becoming more friendly toward Israel. There were the Abraham accords during Trump and then the Saudis were moving in a similar direction in Biden's term. In part at least, the October 7th attacks were done to prevent that. Now that there is a new regime in Syria not friendly to Iran like the previous one was, and now that the power of Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas are much diminished, these Arab states may well again pursue peace with Israel, making the Near East a much better place.
This scenario is looking more likely now:
ReplyDeletehttps://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1936717300167487538
A summary:
Trump makes a deal with Iran where where the US satisfies Israel's goal of destroying Iran's nuke sites, let's Iran's people get out of the way and agrees to let Iran save face by firing missiles at Qatar. Israel praises Trump for finishing their goal and so has no excuse to continue the war. Republican hawks are satisfied and so will pass the BBB. Trump spins it to the angry MAGA anti-war faction as one and done and ending a war instead of engaging in one.
The video at the end shows Trump explaining how the Soleimani episode went.
Now Iran has fired missiles at the US base in Qatar (with advance notice) , no one hurt and both sides can now proclaim their honor has been satisfied and Israel can claim their objective has been accomplished.
Hi bmiller! I wrote the two posts before yours. That summary seems to have come true (for now, at least) with the cease-fire announced between Israel and Iran. I liked your point in a previous discussion too about John Rich showing Trump why the crowd booed when he mentioned warp speed. IF, and it is an IF, weapons experts can confirm that Iran has given up its enriched uranium etc, then the world is a safer place than it was 2 weeks ago.
DeleteHi Anon,
DeleteYes. Life moves pretty fast!
precariously misinformed, and therefore careless of impact, about Iran's nuclear capacity.
ReplyDelete