Friday, January 30, 2026

Van Fraassen on microscopy

Philosopher of science Bas van Fraassen is well known for defending the “constructive empiricist” position that the success of a scientific theory does not compel us to believe in the existence of the theoretical entities it posits.  In his view, a scientific theory aims only to be empirically adequate, in the sense of correctly describing the world of observable things.  When a theory is successful insofar as it makes accurate predictions or opens the door to technological advances, this gives us reason to believe only that it is empirically adequate, not that it tells us anything about a realm beyond what is observable.

Scientific realists take the contrary view that the success of a theory does give us reason to believe in the theoretical entities it posits.  Among other arguments, they sometimes appeal to the idea that entities that at one time were unobservable later became observable with the rise of new technologies, such as telescopes, electron microscopes, and ordinary microscopes.  This shows, they argue, that the boundary between observable and unobservable entities is not sharp enough to justify skepticism about the latter.

In chapter 4 of his book Scientific Representation, van Fraassen presents a very clever and interesting challenge to this sort of argument.  Taking on scientific realists on what might seem to be their strongest ground, he denies that even ordinary microscopes must be seen as confirming the reality of previously unobserved entities.

First a terminological point.  Consider the world of everyday experience – of tables and chairs, rocks and trees, reflections in water and shadows on the ground and on walls, rainbows and clouds and stars in the sky, and so on.  These are all examples of “phenomena” as van Fraassen uses the term.  In holding that the aim of science is empirical adequacy, views like his are often characterized as holding that science is concerned only to “save the phenomena.”  Scientific realism, by contrast, holds that science gives us reason to believe in an invisible world behind the phenomena.

The claim on the table, then, is that a microscope amounts to “a window on the invisible world,” as van Fraassen puts it (p. 93).  It allows us to peer behind the phenomena to what previously had been unobservable.  Van Fraassen allows that this is one possible interpretation.  But he argues that it is not the only one, so that instruments like microscopes cannot be appealed to as somehow settling the dispute between constructive empiricism and scientific realism.  Considered by themselves they are neutral, insofar as what they yield can be interpreted in ways consistent with either position.

Scientific instruments, notes van Fraassen, play several roles.  Sometimes that role is representative, as in the case of clocks, balances, and measuring rods.  Sometimes it is imitative in the sense of mimicking effects that occur in nature, as when an electrical generator is used to bring about an imitation of lightning.  Sometimes the role is instead productive, in the sense of bringing about phenomena which had not previously been observed, as when Faraday discovered electromagnetic induction.

Now, a microscope is a scientific instrument.  What role does it play?  The scientific realist, in conceiving of it as a kind of “window” on otherwise unobservable reality, thinks of it as playing an essentially representative role.  But whether or not it plays that role, van Fraassen says, it certainly plays the productive role of creating new phenomena, phenomena that had not been seen before.  And he wants to argue that there is nothing in what they show us that compels us to see them as doing anything more than that.

Here he appeals to the idea of a “public hallucination” (p. 101).  Hallucinations like the one Macbeth experienced when he thought he saw a dagger are private, directly knowable only to the individual experiencing them.  Contrast that with a rainbow, which, like Macbeth’s dagger, is not something really out there in the world, but is nevertheless experienced by many individuals at once. 

But not all public hallucinations are quite as distant from really existing things as that.  Van Fraassen draws a distinction between four types of “images” we distinguish from reality, but which are not all equally distant from it.  At one extreme we have private images such as after-images, dreams, and hallucinations, which are not only not actual things in the objective world, but are accessible only to the individual person having the experience.  At the other extreme we have graven images such as paintings, photographs, and sculptures.  These are not really things of the same sort as what they resemble, but they nevertheless are things in their own right really existing in the world outside the mind. 

In between are public hallucinations, but these can be divided into two sub-classes.  There are public hallucinations that are, as van Fraassen puts it, “not ‘copy’-qualified” (p. 104).  What he means is that they are not images of some thing that is really out there in the world.  Rainbows and mirages would be examples.  They are a step up from private images because they are shared rather than subjective.  But there are also public hallucinations that are “copy-qualified,” in the sense that they are images “of” something really there in the world.  Examples would be shadows and reflections, such as the reflection of a tree in the water.  These are a step down from graven images, because a reflection is, like a rainbow, not an actual thing out there in the world.  But it is of a thing (for example, the tree) in a way a rainbow is not.  Hence it is a step up from a public hallucination of the kind that is not copy-qualified.

It is in this last category that van Fraassen wants to put the images seen in a microscope.  What a microscope gives is, he argues, is a public hallucination of the copy-qualified kind, like a tree’s shadow or reflection in the water.  By no means does he want to deny that we do, of course, get much useful information from microscopes and other scientific instruments.  But this, he argues, is due to “our latching onto significant regularities in the phenomena” rather having to do with unobserved realities (p. 109).

As always with van Fraassen, there are further intriguing nuances, examples, and insights, and I can’t convey them all here in this summary.  But I think I have captured the gist of his argument.  It seems to me that the scientific realist can make the following points in response.

First, while there are similarities between the case of a tree’s reflection in water and the case of an image seen in a microscope, there are also important differences.  As I was reading van Fraassen’s book, I sipped a martini.  Through the glass I could see the books on the shelf behind it – only very obscurely through the part of the glass that still had liquid in it, a little bit more clearly through the part that did not.  But though the books were obscured, it seems correct to say that I was looking at the books themselves – even though I was doing so through the medium of the glass – rather than that I was looking at an image in the glass.  I was also wearing eyeglasses, and when I peered past the martini glass to the books it seems even more obviously correct to say that what I was looking at were the books, even if I looked at them through the eyeglasses (rather than saying that I was looking at an image in the eyeglasses).

These cases are obviously different from the case of looking at a reflection of a tree in the water.  In that case, what I am looking at is not the tree itself, but something caused by the tree.  As van Fraassen emphasizes, the reflection of the tree is not a thing there in the water in the sense in which a floating log is a thing there in the water.  The reflection will, for example, seem to move as you keep looking at it while you move along the shore, whereas a floating log might not do so.  That’s why it is plausible to classify the reflection as a kind of “public hallucination.”  By contrast, the books I see through the martini glass and through the eyeglasses are things there in the world.  And even given that the martini glass distorts the appearance of the books, the result is not a hallucination of any kind, precisely because I really am nevertheless looking at the books.

Now, the case of the microscope seems obviously closer to the cases of the martini glass and the eyeglasses than it does to the case of the reflection of the tree.  What you see when using a microscope to examine a cell, for example, is the cell itself – even if you’re looking at it through the microscope – rather than merely an image.  If that is the case, though, then it also seems plausible after all to conceive of a microscopes as a “window on the invisible world,” rather than merely as something that creates new phenomena.

A second point in reply to van Fraassen would be this.  Suppose the argument I just gave is wrong, and that van Fraassen is right to characterize what a microscope produces as a “copy-qualified public hallucination.”  It is not clear that that would actually support constructive empiricism over scientific realism.  After all, what makes an image “copy-qualified” is that there is a real thing that the image is an image of.  For example, a tree’s reflection in the water is copy-qualified because there really is a tree that is causing it.  The fact that the reflection is a “public hallucination” therefore would hardly support anti-realism about trees!

But then, if an image in a microscope is also a “copy-qualified” image, then that would mean that there must a real thing that the image is an image of.  And that would arguably be sufficient grist for the scientific realist mill, even if we don’t think of microscopes as windows on the invisible world.

Related posts:

Hanson on observation

Cartwright on theory and experiment in science

Cartwright on reductionism in science

Dupré on the ideologizing of science

The particle collection that fancied itself a physicist

Fallacies physicists fall for

43 comments:

  1. I would also take issue with Fraassen's use of the term "public hallucination". I think that (a) he is intentionally vague about what that really is supposed to mean, and (b) employing that vagueness to carry weight for "not real, like dreams and other subjective phenomona."

    Contrast that with a rainbow, which, like Macbeth’s dagger, is not something really out there in the world, but is nevertheless experienced by many individuals at once.

    Take the rainbow: the phenomenon IS something real out there: you can take a photo, and it shows up in the photo. you can get a light meter out and measure the wavelengths of light coming in. Those light rays are REAL, objective phenomena: they don't exist only "in" the subject. Moreover, in some cases, at the "bottom" you can see the ground or objects behind the rainbow, so it is translucent: you can TELL it's not representative of a specific physical object with definite form. That is, upon closer, more intent analysis, it doesn't "look like" a physical object colored with those colors, it looks other than that - more like disembodied color. Which IS more like what it is. A prism provides more experiences in the same category, but slightly different ones. In both cases, the experiences ARE subject to testing and analysis, to experiment, to recording, persistence, verification. Go look up definitions of "hallucination" and see if that fits these attributes.

    What Fraassen might mean is that the rainbow's color image isn't the light reflected off an object that has those colors, so that the image we get is not native of some object. If so, he was remarkably unnuanced about calling it "not real". The images are certainly real in the sense that real physical light wave phenomena outside of the observer causes it, and does so reliably, predictably, etc.

    It is possible that Fraassen doesn't mean to apply the heavy negative weight of the term "hallucination" for this category, but I doubt it, or he would have cast about for a better term.

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    1. Yeah, I too raised an eyebrow at the notion that an illusion can be compared to a "hallucination". That doesn't seem right. Mirages are real things that exist independently of the mind, they're just not what they appear to be to said mind. Similarly, rainbows are a real phenomenon based on light refraction in the sky. They would be there even if we didn't see them. They can't really be considered "hallucinations" unless you take a Kantian route and consider all of sense perception itself to be a kind of hallucination.

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  2. There should be an award for the most fitting thumbnails because Prof keeps knocking them out of the park.

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  3. The best example may be electrons. People old enough to have used CRT TV sets and computer monitors know that electrons are not just theoretical constructs, much less "public hallucinations", but very real "little balls" that impacted the phosphorus on TV and monitor screens making it emit light. That electrons behave like waves in electronic miscroscopes does not detract that they behave like balls in CRT's.

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  4. Now this seems philosophical decadence, the convoluted play of luxuriantly circulating concepts at its finest: There are no dreams, no rainbows or shadows or reflections of trees (no science?) actually really out there in the real actual objective world... There's not only no pot o' gold, there's no rainbow, because correctly describing the empirical adequacy of a realm beyond what is observable ... (Sorry, I appear to be completely lost here.)

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  5. This is an interesting topic.

    One thing I would mention is that most of the objects observed in microscopes are telescopes are not of such a different kind from the objects we interact with in daily life, other than being much bigger or smaller.

    We can see the moon and other planets with the naked eye and a telescope that shows them as bodies similar to the Earth, but with different features does not violate common sense.

    Likewise, there are organisms of many sizes visible with the naked eye, so a microscope showing organisms still smaller does not go against the common sense understanding of the world either.

    I would guess that one reason people reject (some versions of) scientific realism is because of the idea that people should believe in even parts of scientific theories that violate common sense.

    I have no problem believing in galaxies, but I am not so sure about quarks.

    Another related topic is that there is a difference between what a quark is, in terms of a model and how physicists think of quarks. How they imagine what a quark really is.

    Believing that there is something there, that a scientific theory describes an aspect of the world, does not mean that we have to also agree with some interpretation about what is the reality described by the theory.

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  6. I expect that at least on the edges, Fraassen's theory runs into some pretty strong headwinds from actual empirical phenomena. Bob with ordinary eyesight can't see out to the horizon able to make out shapes, may not even see (at all) an object that's there. Then Sam comes along who is farsighted and sees them clearly, and describes them. They walk toward the objects, and - lo and behold - Bob can see them, just as described. Is his description that "Sam had a private hallucination I was not privy to, and now I'm having it too"? No.

    Same with something up close: a farsighted person Frank looking at extremely fine print only 5 inches from his face, and he can't see more than a blur, or even that. But Bob reads it. Then someone hands Frank a piece of glass, and he can verify the words. Now Bob looks at even finer print, and can't make it out, so he takes a weak magnifying glass to it, and reads it. Then Jane whose vision is much better can read it directly, without the magnifying glass. The Bob doesn't describe what he sees WITH the magnifying glass as "a private hallucination" because neither he nor Frank could see it" without aid, and they joined Jane in what is now a public hallucination. That's not plausible: The fact that someone could see it without aid, and others could see the same thing with aid, proves that what they ALL saw was real, not hallucinatory.

    But now we get out a stronger magnifying glass, i.e. just the same as the weak one, but with more curvature. And now even Jane can make out details in the letters, say, a small defect, that she could not see before - as can Bob and Frank. But she can remain seeing the letters themselves just fine, as can Bob and Frank. Are we to assert that because none of them could make out the small defect unaided, that the magnifying glass is presenting a "public hallucination", even though the same instrument is showing them the same letters they saw before, (just larger)? Are we to suggest even that "seeing the letters look larger" is also a hallucination, even though all 3 of them could achieve exactly the same result just by holding the paper closer? These are not plausible accounts of what is happening. Rather, the plausible account is that the glass modifies the visible aspect that is really and readily visible, in a knowable way, and it has the same kind of effect on other visible objects that are only bare visible but really there, and also on visible objects that are too small to be visible directly, but are really there. And we can measure the amount of change in apparent size to match the curvature of the lens. Fraassen's account is just silly.

    And a microscope, (ordinary, using glass lenses), we can know with confidence does the same kinds of thing to other objects really there, because these too obey the same relation to lens curvature. The fact that there is a continuum of variation in result that matches the variation of lenses, part of the range being with directly observable objects, (both before and after magnifying), establishes that the action of the lens is not to produce "hallucination".

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  7. That was so lyrically well-written, Dr McPike.

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  8. I'm not perfectly sure how this debate differs from the age-old philosophical debate over epistemology & perception. Does it formally matter whether the medium of perception is the human senses or the microscope? To quote Morty Smith, mutatis mutandis, "That just sounds like slavery with extra steps!"

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  9. I will read this with interest. I enjoy Fraassen for the his not easily dismissed critiques of Scientific realism.

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  10. I think his challenge still holds force because there is nothing in a "copy-qualified" image that requires the object-image relation to be representative and not merely causal. Unlike with observing bookshelves through the glasses, there is no alternative way to observe the objects in the image produced by a microscope. Our descriptions of what is seen can only be about the content of the image while we can move the glasses aside and see the bookshelf in an unmediated way.

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  11. If you take things that you can see with the naked eye and put them under a microscope and they look the same under the microscope as to the naked eye, then when you use the microscope to observed things not visible to the naked eye, what would dissuade you from thinking that you are observing real things and not just images produced by the microscope ?

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    1. I'd say that this would confirm representation for macroscopic objects. I doubt it would be enough to remove all skepticism about the microscopic image. Suppose microscopic objects can produce public hallucinations not identical to the objects themselves but with content that suggests different objects exists. Then what we know that confirms the macroscopic representation view wouldn't help us settle the case for microscopic images.

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    2. In semiconductor design and manufacture, a circuit is designed and is then shrunk down to microscopic size using photolithography. If it became something different when it was miniaturized why would it work as designed in its macro version?

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    3. Is there any justification for believing the microscopic images would act differently from macroscopic images. Why would objects behave differently just because they are beyond our human limit of sensation ? Also, if an electron microscope reveals the same structure as the optical microscope, then you have agreement between two methods.

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    4. @bmiller, antirealism about quantum mechanics is still widely thought to be a plausible account of it and is all you need to design and build chips. I am not a fan of priviledging the "shut up and calculate" approach but engineers can and arguably do. Empirical adequacy is at the core of this view.

      @Matthew, the same cause can produce similar effects on two different instruments. Neither of which need to be representative effects instead of just merely causal ones. I just think that Van Fraassen's challenge is sustainable. We don't have the resources we need to overcome skepticism about these theoretical entities.

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    5. Gofaone Paul,

      Miniaturizing a circuit design does not necessarily involve semiconductor physics. The entire design including transistors and their circuit connections are modeled on a computer (formerly on layered vellum paper) and photographically reduced to a size that cannot be discerned with the naked eye.

      The circuit is then manufactured and if there is a problem, microscopes are used to see what went wrong. The microscope images appear the same as the computer design when the device is working and flaws or damage can be detected by comparing the original design to what is observed in the microscope.

      So apparently both the original design observed with human eyes correspond to the microscopic image also observed with human eyes. Why would that be the case if the "microscopic world" somehow was different in kind from the macroscopic world?

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    6. Thanks for expanding on the process. I found it really helpful. In this case, a macroscopic image from the design was inscribed into the material and was later reproduced by an electron microscope. The inference being that the reproduced image is representative of the microstructure and not merely just caused/produced by it. Fair enough. The process doesn't compel the conclusion but it is good enough evidence for me at least. My only concern is that the image in this case is an artifact of the macroscale that is only ever experienced at that same scale both before and after. Why can't our description end there because that is what we see?

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    7. Gofaone Paul,

      The integrated circuit is designed to behave a certain way and it indeed behaves the way it is designed when it is manufactured. So it is more than just appearances.

      One could think of this as a test case to either prove or disprove that "the microscopic world" is a different sort of world than "the macroscopic world". If we were peering into a microscope for the first time, we might wonder if what we are seeing is "really" what is there. In this case, we know what is "really" there because we designed the thing we are looking at and it corresponds to our expectations. Since we know from this example that we are seeing what we think we should see, it gives us confidence in other cases in which we did not design the object under investigation.

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  12. I feel like commentators here miss a very interesting aspect of van Fraassens philosophy. Yes, it sounds weird to say that the empirical sciences don't give us the resources to postulate entities beyond it. But at the same time, doesn't that line of reasoning ring a bell in regards to cosmological arguments?

    Van Fraassen is a full on Kantian and the antirealism he applies hits in exactly that same spot. There's a tension between the idea that causality as we understand it can't be applied beyond the universe or what we perceive, but at the same time give science the exact power we want to take from causality. It's question-begging.

    I know it's not van Fraasens intention, since he agrees with Kant. But it looks to me like his argument shows that the kind of skepticism spoken of in regards to the cosmological argument is not consistent with scientific realism. In other words, a scientific reaoist can't adhere to the Kantian arguments against it.

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    1. Dominik, I don't follow you at all.

      Yes, it sounds weird to say that the empirical sciences don't give us the resources to postulate entities beyond it.

      Do you mean "conclude" rather than postulate? Of course the empirical sciences aren't supposed to postulate entities, i.e. as pre-suppositons. Otherwise we could postulate little green men, invisible and immune to all our experiments, and immensely powerful, that cause (whatever needs an account: circulation of blood, the tides, electricity). Science can reason to entities as the conclusion of experiences (and experiments, which are just pointed experiences) and crafting an account of the experiences.

      If you mean to dispute the validity of causality itself, I suspect you're working from Hume instead of Kant, but whatever the source, we have direct experience of causality internally when we choose an end, then select a course of action intended to achieve that end, then execute that course of action and satisfyingly arrive at the end intended. And if you claim "that doesn't count" as experiencing cause, I guess you're disputing semantics and epistemology as well as science. The account Prof. Feser gave us didn't intimate that Fraassen had all this baggage, so we didn't take them up. The arguments against Hume are different from those against Kant.

      There's a tension between the idea that causality as we understand it can't be applied beyond the universe or what we perceive, but at the same time give science the exact power we want to take from causality. It's question-begging.

      So, if we simply don't hold "that causality as we understand it can't be applied beyond the universe or what we perceive" and urge that it can, we don't get the tension, right?

      It is not clear what you mean by "be applied beyond...what we perceive". When ball A strikes ball B and ball B moves, we SEE A move, the strike, and B move. Do you mean (as Hume does) that "we don't SEE causality", all we see is B move after A strikes, the second movement is seen but not "causality", nothing about that event constitutes perception of causality, then you mean that "causality as we understand it can't be applied EVEN WITHIN the universe and what we perceive", right? But we observe in the universe that "everywhere we turn to look, for an action that we see, we find something of a cause: either a causal entity that we can see directly or through instruments (like a microscope), or a force that we cannot observe directly but can be described with immense precision through direct and indirect methods of observation." You may take up the dispute whether these forces "exist" and whether their existence is "postulated" rather than, but eventually you'll run up against the Principle of Sufficient Reason: accepting the undisputed regularity of behavior without allowing a cause (not: without allowing for a known, specific cause, but without allowing there being any cause) violates reason. And once we can violate reason, everything else Hume argues is pointless, for he's relying on reason for the arguments. (Yes, this is an incomplete argument against Hume. We didn't think the issues with Fraassen needed to go here.)

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    2. Anon, we agree with each other. You need to keep in mind that those who press Kant's objection generally don't accept the PSR

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  13. In my fervid dreams, I am playing billiards with Hume. He keeps saying there is so causation while I am running the table. My bank shots are incredible.

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    1. It's spelled "humorous." But in playing billiards, I do use my humerus bone.

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    2. That's funny: correcting HUME-erous as humorous. Probably by someone who has the humours, or is out of humour.

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    3. I have dreams like that, too, but in mine, Schopenhauer's "sehr kluger Pudel" keeps knocking the billiard balls back toward the queue in the hope of tracing causality.

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    4. The philosopher of pessimism had a thing for poodles.

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  14. Since I work as an Orthopedic Nurse Practitioner, ( I couldn't get a job with a B.A in philosophy) I have a thing for bones. I couldn't see HUME; I just thought of the bone. But yes, it was funny. In more ways than one.

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  15. What sensate experience, mediated through a tool like a microscope, or viewed directly, as it were, with our eyes, is not experienced as a "copy-qualified" image in our consciousness? Isn't it the case that when you look at the books, through the lens of your eye, through your eyeglasses, or through your martini glass, what you're seeing is not the books as they are in themselves, but a representation of the books in your consciousness? As an observer, you contribute to the formation of the phenomena. If you only ever saw through a martini glass, what a book would mean would be determined in part by that obscure lens. A bookshelf to a blind man is not the same phenomena as a bookshelf to Ed Feser. It seems to me that Fraassen is right that a microscope forms a new phenomena, or at least adds a new dimension to an existing phenomena. But, what he's missing to make sense of his distinctions is form. What is common between a tree, a hallucination of a tree, the reflection of a tree in water, a sculpture of a tree, and our conscious vision of a tree? Form. And our ability to participate in form explains why a qualified scientific realism is possible.

    Fraassen sounds interesting, but I suspect Owen Barfield contributed more clarity to these questions (and on the nature of a rainbow) with his treatment of participation and consciousness in his book, Saving the Appearances.

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  16. Hey Prof

    I was reading Aristotle's Revenge the other day. I also read Christopher Decaen, an AT philosopher.

    Would it be fair to posit that on your view of nature, quantitative microphysical properties like surface reflectance and the qualitative feature of red can be said to exist together or relate to each other only as different aspects of the color red as it exists in the external world namely as the material and formal cause of redness in the external world, on this view their existing together only makes sense in reference to the whole.(Actually existing redness in material objects)

    (Technically the color red is itself a feature of a greater whole but even features can be said to have natures in an extended sense like organs for example).

    Otherwise to posit such features as just existing together without any reference to a whole would make their relationship completely contingent since one is a quantitative property and one is qualitative. They have to exist together as part of a unity.

    What would be your thoughts?

    Does this make sense ?

    Cheers

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    1. Hey Norm, I don't know exactly what Ed would say about this, but I think you can catch a glimpse of the answer on this post: https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2019/09/aristotles-revenge-and-naive-color.html

      God Bless!

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    2. Prof had something similar here

      "In human experience, conceptual and sensory content are fused, two aspects of one thing rather than an aggregate of a purely intellectual state (as in an angel) and a purely sentient state (as in a non-human animal)."

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    3. Thanks Vini

      I have read that.

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    4. Hi Vini, I have read that, it's one of my favourite posts on the blog, just because of the sheer number of times I keep coming back to it. I love it a lot.

      I just wanted to know what Prof would agree with me with that if these two distinct orders didn't form a kind of unity with each other to make up red in the external world and they just existed together, they would just be a contingent aggregate.

      I think Prof would agree with that. But I just wanted to clarify.

      Prof :)

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    5. Hi, @Norm.

      I see.

      I think Ed would say that the physical properties (like surface reflectance) and the qualitative feature of red are just two distinct aspects (the material cause, analyzed by two different 'sides', i.e. qualitatively and quantitatively) of the same object, and not red (or any color) as such (the quality of 'red' happens because the object itself is 'Red'). I think that he would bring to mind the Aristotelian analogy between the wax and the shape of the wax, kind of thing.

      Hope that helps!

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    6. Hey Vini

      Thanks for your kind response.

      Well, yes of course red is always going to be the feature of some object.

      But the question over here is, assuming that the quality/form red cannot exist in the external world without said surface reflectance properties, how do the qualitative and quantitative features relate to each other, one can either say that the qualitative feature is the formal cause of red in any object, while the quantitative feature is the material cause, they can't exist seperately from each other and can only be understood as aspects of red as it actually exists in any red object.
      Essence of Red = Qualitative+ Quantitative (Microphysical)

      If however one says that they don't form any unity but just exist together, the relationship becomes contingent.

      Does that make sense?

      Thanks for engaging, I am grateful

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    7. Hi again, Norm.

      Hmm. I misinterpreted your question at first. Thanks for clarifying.

      You said, "assuming that the quality/form red cannot exist in the external world without said surface reflectance properties..." But I think Ed would reject this assumption, because it seems to imply heavily that for the color (of an object) to exist, it would necessarily have its existence grounded in something other than the object itself (like the light bulb which actually spreads light for the red color to actually show up).

      In another sense, it would be one thing to say that color X, say, needs surface reflectance to actually be acknowledged, and another, different thing to say that it needs such properties to actually exist. Based on the basic intrinsic (compositional) principles of an object (Formal and Material causes), the material cause of an object could cause it to be red (such as a coral snake) while also being related to its formal cause or nature (a snake's nature can bear the red color, say). I think that nothing in such nature forces something to have reflectance properties as such, but that said properties are a mixture of active and passive potencies of objects, in the sense that an object with the capacity to evoke light into something would make the reflected object actually show such and such features.

      Now, if we take the presupposition to be true, I don't think there is a way to not agree with you: "one can either say that the qualitative feature is the formal cause of red in any object, while the quantitative feature is the material cause, they can't exist seperately from each other and can only be understood as aspects of red as it actually exists in any red object." And, of course, if there was absolutely zero relation between the two things, they could not only be contingent, but there would be nothing in reality to stop the occurrence of something bizarre as a red surface reflection matematical properties being also present in an actually yellow object, say.

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    8. Could you briefly comment Prof, whenever you get time, since it has generated some interest,

      Namely on this,

      "If however one says that they don't form any unity but just exist together, the relationship becomes contingent."

      Would this be a correct inference?

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    9. Vini you raise very interesting points

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    10. Hi Vini

      You make some interesting points but I don't think there would be a problem because I would acknowledge that surface reflectance properties themselves would need to exist in some object in the real world .

      The issue is just about clarifying, how those properties relates to the qualitative aspect.

      Chris Decaen takes them to be related as Form and Matter.

      So my question to Prof was that if he would see it in the same way ?

      And suppose someone doesn't seem them in the same way and posits that it just is the case where so and so surface reflectance properties are present, the quality is also present.

      Chris Decaen says that this makes the relationship contingent. Since there's nothing about the qualitative that entails the quantitative and vice versa.

      So I was just asking Prof if we don't see them as two aspects of the same unity, formal and material aspect of red existing in the external world, would he agree with Decaen's conclusion that the relationship is contingent

      I guess Prof is busy tho :) so it will remain unanswered.



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    11. Hmm one thing that pops to mind after going through scholastic metaphysics,is that mathematical structure like surface reflectance properties and qualitative aspects like redness, are both forms, they can't both be actual otherwise this will disturb the unicity of forms. If we identify surface reflectance properties with the micro structure, we can say that it exists only virtually within red, not actually, with the form of qualitative aspect of red being the *actual* macro level feature.

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    12. Hi Prof,

      Did I understand you correctly when you say neuroscientists and scientists in general have to presuppose the reality of change.

      If someone wanted to rely on the empirical evidence of neuroscience, they would have to affirm the reality of change right, for example, if they cite the dependence of some sensation or concious state on a particular brain/neural process. Even if these two things always appear together, it would NOT entail dependence right, in order to establish dependence, they would have to actually observe some change in the neural process bringing about a change in the concious state right. Or atleast presuppose some change at the very least is possible if not observable.

      If they don't think that such a change is possible then the principle of "No change without physical change" also goes out the window, right , along with the empirical evidence.

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