The Catholic
and natural law traditions recognize this.
Unfortunately, it appears that a certain notorious segment of the online
Catholic right does not recognize it.
Obsessed with matters of race, they seem to think their fixation is
justified by what the tradition says about the nation, and that only liberalism
and post-Vatican II theological mushiness could prevent their fellow Catholics
from seeing this. Nothing could be
further from the truth. In reality,
while thinkers in the tradition acknowledge that nations usually arise out of racial
or ethnic groups, they commonly deny that a nation is reducible to a racial or ethnic group, or connected to race or
ethnicity by strict necessity.
Territorial, historical, and cultural ties between peoples are also
important to nationhood, and in some cases more important.
For example,
in his classic book Social Ethics:
Natural Law in the Western World, Johannes Messner (pictured above) writes:
In origin the word “nation” indicates a large group united by
the common descent of its members. The
example of the Swiss nation, however, in which four different groups are
united, shows that even common descent and the associated element of common
language is not an integral characteristic of the idea of the nation. Indispensable, however, are the elements of a
fellowship in socially relevant values and the common will to assert this
fellowship within the society of nations.
This fellowship is chiefly rooted in common historical experience and
presupposes a common territory.
Since historical development is of such significance in the
origin of the nation, historical factors must be taken into account, as
determining its individual features, more than in any other concept of the
social sciences. Whereas the family is
an elementary social unit guaranteed by unvarying functions, the nation, its
status, and its functions are subject to far-reaching change. Some features are conspicuous at certain
times and others recede. The idea of the
nation, therefore, is elastic… The fellowship in values may comprise all the
fundamental cultural and social values, even religion; it may, however, be
confined to a few human and social values of a general character. (p. 474)
Again,
writes Messner, while it “possesses great unifying force,” nevertheless “kinship
by blood is, as we have said, not an indispensable factor in the constitution
of a nation” (p. 477). He also distinguishes
“bond of common blood” from “modern race feeling [which] is an altogether
different phenomenon,” and commenting on the historical origins of the latter,
he says:
Toynbee sees one of the predominant causes of modern race
feeling in Protestantism. With the disintegration
of the European community of Christian spirit, it first emerged, Toynbee points
out, in the consciousness of the White overseas settlers who adapted the Old
Testament idea of the “chosen people” to their own situation and intermingled
it with the fear of losing their new possessions through the defensive action
of the natives… Toynbee emphasizes the fact that up to the last quarter of the
fifteenth century the members of our Western society did not divide the human
family into Whites and Colored, as we do today, but into Christians and
Heathens. (p. 477)
Of the
relationship between nation and race, Messner concludes:
Therefore, we are bound to conclude that racial consciousness,
that is, consciousness of belonging to a particular race, cannot be a decisive
element in the life of a nation. Indeed,
history offers no example of racial consciousness playing a pre-eminent part in
the progress of a people toward nationhood.
(p. 478)
Catholic
legal scholar John Eppstein, in his 1935 book The Catholic Tradition of the Law of Nations, acknowledges that
there is a connection between nation and ethnicity, writing:
The fact of birth from certain parents, the fact of their descent
in turn from certain ancestors, the far-reaching forces of heredity in the
physiological order, and the immemorial institution of inheritance in the
social order, these combine to form a community of human souls more or less
strongly attached to a certain part of the earth’s surface which human laws,
municipal, national or international, can only recognize and respect. (p. 349)
At the same
time, he warns against exaggerating the significance of this connection, immediately
going on to write:
Yet there is nothing absolute in the association based upon
birth. The mere fact of intermarriage
between men and women of different tribal or racial origins, which is an
equally natural and almost equally universal phenomenon, while it creates a new
family, and therefore a new chain of blood relationship, blurs the outlines of
racial particularism. The universal
confraternity of mankind gives rise… to a series of mutual rights and duties which
no human groupings have the right to frustrate.
Christianity sanctifying the brotherly union of men, forbids an
attachment to race or family so great as to impede the love of God and the love
of all men for His sake. The vision of
Peter in the household of Joppe revealed the littleness of racial
conservatism. (pp. 349-50)
We have established first that, in the strict sense of association
derived from birth, nationality is a natural factor of great importance in the
construction of human society. Secondly,
that its mission is neither absolute nor adequate to the whole needs of
man. It is relative: its operation is
limited notably by the constant mixture and compenetration of races. (p. 350)
And,
commenting on the connection between nationality and culture, Eppstein writes:
Though it is by birth that every human being inherits this
form of culture in which domestic tradition plays a predominant part, it is an
error to suppose that the only idiom, gestures, modes of expression, physical
and moral customs or rules which the human child is normally taught to adopt
must be those which are solely connected with racial descent. This cultural heritage may be changed or even
enriched in successive generations by migration, learning, intercourse with
other families, groups or nationalities.
(pp. 350-51)
Michael
Cronin’s The Science of Ethics also
addresses these matters. In the 1939
edition of Volume II, Cronin notes that families give rise to larger
communities which eventually give rise in turn to nations, and that blood
relationships initially play a large role.
But of these intermediate communities, he writes:
As growth continued, however, and particularly as intermarriage
increased, or perhaps as fusion occurred with other groups, blood-relationships
would gradually become so distant as to be almost negligible, so that that
which in the beginning constituted the vital bond of connection would at length
be superseded in importance by other characteristics of the expanding
community. (pp. 507-8)
Cronin goes
on to say that while “nationality in its fullest sense” involves descent from a
common stock, there is also an extended sense of nationality which does not
involve such common descent but instead the binding of peoples together by intermarriage,
common environment and history, religion, and the like (pp. 508-9).
Roberti and
Palazzini’s 1957 Dictionary of Moral
Theology, in its entry on “Nation,” says that “race… is a natural but not
exclusive element of nation. Almost all
nations consist of a mixture of different types of peoples” (p. 812). Its entry on “Race” distinguishes the notion
of race from the notions of people and nation. Race, it says,
concerns anatomical and physiological features.
A people, by contrast, is a “sociological entity,” and “one and the same
people may consist of various races” (p. 1015).
And a nation is “a political entity made up not only of diverse races
but of diverse peoples and inhabitants of different territories who are nevertheless
united to some degree by the same cultural ties” (ibid.).
More could be said, but that makes the point. That ethnic ties are typically a factor in the origin of nations is true enough, but the natural law and Catholic theological traditions do not support an obsessive focus on race or ethnicity as defining or strictly necessary characteristics of nationhood.


This is really well articulate Prof! So precise and clear! The citations are a treasure trove. I haven't yet read the book, but there doesn't seem to be any citations from your book on Race, admittedly it was more of a critique of CRT, perhaps you could add this bit in later additions.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree, Norm. Excellent article to finish the New Year, Ed! In addition to race, other very important factors for most nations are language and religion.
DeleteHappy New Year Tim! Those are important factors!
DeleteI think even certain unique cultural traits do make a difference, whether people stay in joint families or nuclear families, the food they eat, the way people dress, caring for elders (quite relevant in India and China).
If people focused on how the US has changed in these ways and if some changes might help them recover that identity, it would be more conducive then this obsession with race from both the left and the right, especially the left with CRT, although the racially obsessed fringes on the right seem to be quite apt at driving the narrative sadly.
What's sad is that they are willing to embrace total destruction to achieve their aims.
One often comes across that post on social media where it implies that Newsom should be picked over Vance because Newsom's family is completely white and Vance is mixed. It's disgusting that someone would attack Vance's family in that way.
Instead of critiquing candidates based on policy we have reached this point. Look at the nonsense that Prof is encountering on Twitter!
Where have we come to,man?
We need a return to Faith, Family and Country. We are all one in Christ!
I hope you have a wonderful new year with lot's of hope, Tim. God bless you.
Cheers
I agree with all that. But what do you do when your race -- and I mean race, not ethnic group -- formerly the majority and dominant, is despised by its own leaders, exploited, turned into a minority, blamed for everything bad, and discriminated against? That's the case for whites today, especially men, whether Catholic, Protestant or neither in the United States, the UK and other countries. And who have been pushed into a corner, together, and assaulted -- again by their own leaders. While they're still expected to pay for everything and fight in the wars while awaiting their own extinction. And whose young daughters in the UK have been enslaved by immigrant rape gangs. And so on.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you do? If you're a Christian, then you sacrifice yourself for the good of others. If you're not a Christian, I suppose you should:
Delete1. Chill out for second.
2. Get off social media.
3. Go hang out with people that make you happy.
I know that I'm probably wasting my time here, but why do you think that Pakistani grooming gangs are some kind of massive epidemic? They have happened, granted, and they are wrong, but the rates of them have been massively exaggerated by right-wing newspapers and politicians. Notoriously, the main study that reported on this had multiple distortions, such as *only* counting child sex abuse that happened in the context of street gangs, omitting other contexts in which it could occur (such as online, at school, etc). I know you're likely to brush me off an a Weapon of The Enemy, but I used to be like you. Then I realised I was being lied to and manipulated. I urge you to think carefully about whether you are really sure about the things you believe, and why you trust the people you trust. Is it really because they make the best arguments, or is it because you're scared, and they say things that make you feel better?
DeleteWhat you do is vote out the leaders who demonize and discriminate against that race--oikophobia is just as big a sin as xenophobia (no race or sex should be discriminated against). The Labour Party in the UK is one of the worst and has suffered big losses in council races in 2025. In 2026, they will lose big in the Welsh and Scottish parliaments. It is unlikely that Keir Starmer will survive as Prime Minister through 2026.
DeleteTwo thoughts: 1. The term "race" above is rightly hooked with the modifier "modern", because ancient usage of the term has quite a different cast. It was common to use the term more the way we would use terms indicating a connection by birth, or a people: St. Paul (in Acts 13) refers to the "race of Abraham". It wasn't in ancient times strictly a reference to visible phenotype.
ReplyDelete2. One of the reasons a small clan of people turns into a nation rather than simply a larger (and still larger) clan is that by their intermixing and "compenetration" of other lines through marriages, eventually there is no clear and formal hierarchical ordering of the (many generations later) people through their distant common ancestry: they cannot resort to rule through "who has priority" through birth alone, and they then turn to political ordering. This would support the entire thesis above that common ancestry, though usually significant to the formation of a people and a nation, is not the sole (or even essential) determinant of a society's coherence as a one people.
A nation is a group of people sharing the same ancestry, culture, traditions, and history. Shared ethnicity is a component of an enduring nation. We want to avoid two extremes: those that have made an idol of race and those who have turned America into an abstract ideology For generations the latter has been mainstream and with the failed DEI experiment it isn’t surprising that many are gravitating towards the other extreme. America is a concrete people on concrete land. However, nations are dynamic, but the change must be slow and gradual. Nations can develop through intermarriage and immigration and yet some form of coherent identity must persist. I think it is fair to say that ethnicity is an element of a coherent national identity, but it isn’t the only one or even the primary one. Nevertheless, what we are witnessing is pushback of decades of anti-white propaganda. We are increasingly living in a country that has no shared religion, ethnicity, or coherent identity of any kind.
ReplyDeleteI am not claiming this is the correct reading of nationality, but the America as abstract ideology/proposition nation thing hasn't even be seriously tried Post-sixties--as in the values that make it up e.g. a certain kind of Protestantism, strong limitations on government, certain kinds of historical reverence, belief in the right to bear arms and so forth. Has anyone's immigration or continued residency been dependent on these habitual beliefs? If anything DEI and related liberal media narratives have been about destroying them.
DeleteThe United States remains overwhelmingly Christian (well, as Christian as it's ever been) and seems like it's going to stay that way, although now alongside a significant irreligious minority. 78% of Americans speak English at home, and a strong majority of those who don't are still fluent English speakers. America's garbage monoculture of reality television, arena sports, and overproduced pop music is just as dominant as ever, and its shared belief in the sanctity of technological "progress," unrelenting consumerism, and radical voluntarism bridges all political divides. We still sacrifice thousands of lives each year to guns, cars, and privatized healthcare, and only ever elect morons to political office. The national unity is there. The virtue is lacking.
DeleteAt the end of the day, race matters. Some groups are just smarter than others and this has practical consequences. Pakistanis have IQ of 85 (and 80% are inbred). What's going on in the UK is predictable.
ReplyDeleteLet me guess, you're using Richard Lynn's "study" as your source? The one that's notoriously sloppy and has more holes than a piece of Swiss Cheese? Man, racists really are stupid.
DeletePakistanis aren't a "race," Herr Oberst. Their country didn't even exist until the 1940s, and it was an artificial creation to provide an independent home for India's Muslims. The two largest ethnic groups in Pakistan (Punjabis and Pashtuns) aren't even related to each other, and Pashtuns (who not infrequently have fair skin, brown hair, and green eyes) would have historically been considered white. Sikhs are one of the largest Punjabi groups outside Pakistan, and they're usually regarded as a model minority in Western countries. So... yeah. The race realist strikes out. Who could have guessed?
DeleteI'm sure all of us reading this blog agree, and have always agreed, that an obsessive focus on race or ethnicity should not define a nation. Unfortunately, enemies of our nation DO agree that a nation is essentially defined by race, and none of them are reading this blog or will be convinced by its arguments. Instead they are busy replacing the white population with Hispanics, blacks, and Arabs, and instituting anti-White racial policies wherever they can. What do you do when you wish to transcend race with universal principles, but the only people who will acknowledge those universal principles are those of your own race?
ReplyDeleteFor those interested in a more balanced view, Fr. Cahill’s “Framework of a Christian State” is excellent. I’m not sure what qualifies as being obsessed with the race concept, but from a cultural perspective Julien Langella’s “ Catholic and Identitarian” is a helpful practical guide.
ReplyDeleteIt should also be kept in mind that we can learn a lot from the empiriological sciences in regard to race that were unknown to previous generations - truths that round out and fill in details that philosophy and sacred theology are unable to provide.
Julien Langella? The guy who founded Generation Identitaire? The semi-militia group that got disbanded by the French Government for hate speech? The guy who then went on to form Academia Christiana, the Christofascist group that's also being investigated? This is your guy? Well, at least you've made it clear the kind of person I'm dealing with.
DeleteThat was a devastating critique of the book. It’s been six months since I last commented on a blog - thank you for refreshing my memory on why not to engage.
DeleteMaybe you should name names. Who are you referring to as a certain notorious segment of the online Catholic right? If you are referring to those that engage in low level discourse, then fair enough; they are irrelevant, anyway. The vanguard in high level discourse regarding these issues as they relate to current day US includes Dave Greene who vlogs as the Distributist. If you aren't engaging at this level of discourse then you risk being irrelevant yourself, wagging your bony finger at those that notice their country is being crushed under the burden of mass immigration from peoples who are perfectly fine with retaining their ethnic nepotism.
ReplyDeleteNo (serious) person is articulating that race/ ethnicity is the sole or primary account of a nation. What is being articulated is that race/ ethnicity is an important part of a nation. A propositional nation doesn't exist. Nations are made of people oriented around a common culture (and all that entails, I'm not trying to be exhaustive in a comment lol.) A common culture is promoted and passed down by people who are a part of that culture. Race/ ethnicity is the most common way of doing that (via having children & keeping the race/ ethnicity more or less insular.)
ReplyDeleteI'm somewhat inclined to split hairs over "nation" as a political vs. social concept (mainly on historical grounds), but I really like the general thrust here. This is a conception of nationhood that's organic without being coercive; which recognizes both distinctiveness and unity. Now if only actual "nationalists" would get on board with it.
ReplyDeleteCease bowing down to your father, the Devil, and return to the arms of the church. Give up your insane hatred, your vile worship of child sacrifice, and your love of violence. You could be a good person again.
DeleteIt's here asserted that nations naturally emerged from the family unit. I understand that this is something Catholic Natural Law thinkers believe, but what's the actual evidence for this? From what I can tell, our best historical and anthropological knowledge doesn't agree with this, or at least casts the real story as being much more complex than that.
ReplyDeleteI don't think he's saying that nations emerge directly from the family, or that a nation must be traceable to a single family unit. But familial relationships are the most primordial form of human society, and the development of more complex social systems neccesarily involves transcending the absolutism of blood ties with a shared religious, linguistic, or cultural identity, which then sets a permeable boundary of sorts around the community that develops into a sense of being a people or éthnos. Obviously, modern nation-states often don't conform to these socio-cultural boundaries, or they invent new boundaries as political fictions. But there is a sense in which a nation (again, meaning a people, not a state) is historical expansion earlier kin-based social structures.
DeleteThe important role of nations is shown many times in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
DeleteTo Thurible:
DeleteSee, what you say *could* have happened, but my problem is that without some actual evidence from history, it's nothing more than a just-so story. I need some kind of proof that this description of how nations arise actually matches what happened. If this were true, there ought to be historical and/or anthropological evidence of it. Armchair speculation is not a strong enough foundation to bear the weight of this kind of argument.
To Anon:
Yep, that's about what I expected. Science? Who needs that?! Just read yer BIIIIIBLLLEEEE!
A qualifier here: “nation” is being used at least semi-equivocally as what Aristotle and Plato observed, the rise of an Ethnos out of clan allegiances and the the “myth” of a heroic shared heritage has little in common with the modern nation state. This could have evolved further, but Aristotle’s own experience with Aleksander lead to him being very conservative in his theory of civilisations.
DeleteAs for the Bible yes—half of the Old Testament is a story of the conflict between divine moral destiny and ill-fated attempts at worldly power on the part of differing forms of Israelite kingship (the prophets literally arose as a resistance to the corruption of worldly rule).
EXE,
DeleteI know that you think that the Bible is irrelevant but many people on this blog disagree. For those here who do take the Bible as authoritative in their lives, my point is that they should reject any globalist vision (nightmare really) in which nations are abolished. Nations are beautiful things, even though they are corrupt because humans are corrupt.
Second, you do not get to claim Science on your side if you believe that DEI has not gone too far. DEI now claims that math is racist. It has long claimed that math and science are sexist. Read works like Higher Superstition: The Academic Left and Its Quarrels with Science written in the mid 1990s by Paul Gross and Norman Levitt. E equals m c squared was declared a sexist equation because it privileges the speed of light over other speeds.
See, what you say *could* have happened, but my problem is that without some actual evidence from history, it's nothing more than a just-so story. I need some kind of proof that this description of how nations arise actually matches what happened.
DeleteThe difficulty is that much of the facts have been obscured as pre-history, they happened before people wrote about them. So we usually won't find clear records that record the events.
Still, there is evidence. For example, the Iroquois eventually were organized as "5 nations", but before that we believe they came from one single root "proto-Iroquoian" stock.
Or, to take biblical examples: the Bible gives several examples of what were later tribes and nations that came originally from one set of parents. Most obviously, the Israelites came from Abraham, (but he also engendered others), and from Isaac (but he also engendered others), and from Jacob.
Exaggerated, groaning sigh. I'm surrounded by people who take the Old Testament seriously as not only a historical source, but as a good source for knowledge on the origin of nations. It's like higher criticism was never invented at all. Is it still the 17th century in here?
DeleteMaking a second comment because this question is distinct enough that I think it ought to be treated separately.
ReplyDeleteI would suggest instead that the nation is an imaginary community. Even in a small country like, say, Iceland, no person has a meaningful relationship with even a small fraction of the other "members" of said group. Very likely he will never even see or interact with 99.99% of them. The unity he feels with them is entirely formed from shared symbolism, shared stories, etc. This does not make it "fake", but it means that it is a social construct, an idea that people share, that they need to be convinced to buy into, generally by being taught it at a young age. In this respect, Nationalism is much like a religion, and it was generally used as a substitute for the religious culture that supported the old Divine-Right monarchies that came before them. Further evidence of this is shown in the fluidity of both nationhood and race as concepts - those deemed treasonous to the nation, or who love another culture more than the one they were born in, are frequently cast out from the "nation" they were born in, for instance. The Shoneen, the Dic Sion Daffyd, even the idea of "acting White" (used by Black Americans to criticise other Blacks perceived as conforming to White culture) shows that you can be "excommunicated" from the nation, which shouldn't be possible if it were not a social construct.
No, it is the abolition of nations which one has to imagine, and John Lennon's imagination would be catastrophic.
DeleteNations are borders drawn on maps and globes. Not culture, heritage, ethnicity, or race. Iceland is Iceland because politician drew a line on a map and said “This is where Iceland is located”.
DeleteAnon #1: By any chance, can you actually address any of the things I said? Any of the claims I made? "Nuh-uh" is not a very convincing argument.
Delete@Exe, I agree at least in the sense that “nations” are not substantial entities, they are more like vast activities people undertake over generations. This of course doesn’t mean there conditions are arbitrary or there is no right or wrong way about doing them.
Delete*They are one way of our collectively realising a social good with that being the end in mind. There is no formal reason why the modern nation state is better than another civilisational type e.g. a multi ethnic league or empire or a small Hellenic polis—their justification lies in how well they help their participants realise social goods.
EXE,
DeleteOK, I'll address some of the issues. The Icelandic language is real and is shared by Icelanders. Icelandic literature and heritage is real. I suspect that Iceland has musical traditions that connect its people. Icelanders will support the nation's sports teams. Certain sports are more central to a nation's identity than others. Soccer for many, cricket for some, rugby for some, ice hockey for some. I don't know what the national sports are in Iceland; I know that chess is more important there than in most nations. Religious affiliation itself is frequently a part of a nation's identity. But the nation is not an imaginary community.
Perhaps "Imagined" would be better than "Imaginary", if that matters to you, but nonetheless, can you explain how it is possible for a community to be anything other than imagined, when most members within it have no personal connection, no shared life?
Delete'Fraid you're probably not gonna get a lot of traction with this one, Doc. The "faction" of the Catholic Right that you're speaking of is not a small or insignificant one. Racism is one of the primary animating forces of the modern American Right, and they won't be stopped so easily. They have just as much if not more Tradition to draw upon than you do - after all, did not the Church formulate and put forth the Doctrine of Discovery, the legal basis for colonialism? Did not Pope Nicholas V issue Dum Diversas, justifying the forceful enslavement of African pagans by the Kings of Portugal? Isn't it the case that the Bishops of the American South publicly preached slavery and racism, and were not formally punished for doing so? Examples could be multiplied.
ReplyDeleteLook, the Catholic Church doesn't exactly have a stellar record on the slavery issue, but give credit where credit's due:
DeleteSublimis Deus (1537) basically killed the enslavement of indigenous Americans in the Catholic world at a time when this moral issue was still being hotly debated. Had its logic been consistently applied, it would have ruled out the Transatlantic Slave Trade as well.
In supremo apostolatus (1839) takes a pretty hard line against slavery and the enslavement of black people in particular, to the point where whatever wiggle room Southern Catholics thought they found in the document existed only in their imaginations.
So far as I can tell, the Catholic Church has never recognized "race" (in the modern sense) as a valid category, much less as a legitimate justification for slavery. Dum Diversas's criterion for enslavement is strictly religious (the word "African" appears precisely nowhere in the document) and later popes did not interpret it as the blank check that the Portguese clearly thought it was. Actually, interpreted literally, DD has no bearing whatsoever on the Transatlantic Slave Trade, since its victims were purchased from pagans, not conquered in war by Christians.
None of this proves that racism doesn't run deep in the American Right. But because Catholicism didn't conceive of slavery in racial terms (even when it did give Christian rulers the thumbs-up), racists should find no comfort in the Church's compromises with slavery. They're not the right kind of compromises.
"they won't be stopped so easily" (don't feed the trolls, they said... oh well, here we go): and so the intrigue deepens: Who indeed are these notorious online Catholics of the right, who won't be stopped so easily, because up their sleeves they have "the Doctrine of Discovery, the legal basis for colonialism" (etc.) -- which, apparently, may have something important to do with whatever these nefarious unidentified boogeymen are up to?!
DeleteThank you for being willing to admit that the American Right has a racism problem. I apologize if I seem overly harsh sometimes, it's a consequence of having to deal with people who are either too fanatical to listen to reason or openly and unashamedly goose-steppers (on this platform and on others).
DeleteI'll grant that there have been abolitionist voices in the Church throughout history, and I'm glad for them. My problem is that they rarely had significant institutional power. At best, the hierarchy was content to leave it "a matter of opinion" and passively permit the evil to continue. At worst, they actively partook in the injustices of colonialism, sanctioning oppressive power structures with divine approval. One of the most scandalous signs came in 1866, a year after the end of the Confederacy. In response to questions from a bishop in Ethiopia, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith produced a document that included the following words:
"Slavery itself is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law . . . It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given.”
It argued that slavery was fine so long as either the slave gave himself up voluntarily (still dubious, as such a person would surely only do so in an extremely dire personal straits), or, most crucially, when there is a "just title of slavery". The document doesn't define what this means, exactly, but most scholars would include things like criminals or prisoners of war being enslaved, or, most crucially, the children of slaves. Therefore, it can be argued that the CDF ruled that it is not immoral to own child slaves on the grounds that you validly owned their parents. Even if you were willing to bite the bullet and claim that the CDF is still right, and that slavery is still OK, actually, you'd still be faced with a serious problem because there's no way on Earth you can reconcile that with Gaudium Et Spes, which includes slavery among its list of "infamies" that are "supreme dishonors to the Creator". Surely it can't possibly be that something which is in no way contrary to Natural and Divine Law is also at the same time a supreme dishonor to God.
"openly and unashamedly goose-steppers (on this platform and on others)" -- oh dear; made me LOL once again.
DeleteAnd it now appears (??) that the lunatic online right Catholic fringe is not only wanting to chain up the women-folk back in the kitchen, where they rightly belong, but also get some darkie slaves working their fields!? Who in the crap are these people? Any names?? They may not be stopped easily, but if everthin wuz easy, twouldn't be hardly worth doing and we wouldn't need virtues like hope and fortitude.
EXE,
DeleteI apologize if I seem overly harsh sometimes, it's a consequence of having to deal with people who are either too fanatical to listen to reason or openly and unashamedly goose-steppers (on this platform and on others).
So you think the solution to address people who "won't listen to (your impeccable) reason" is to become unreasonable yourself? Won't that just make reasonable people think that you are an unreasonable person?
@EXE
DeleteI suppose that there could be diferent uses of the word "slavery" on the two texts. Ed several times distinguished between chattel slavery(which we unfortunately had back them) and servitude*. The former is obviously wrong on catholic ethics but the latter not necessarily(the professor argued). I admit that i did not read the document you mentioned, so eho knows.
Notice that the line between one and the other would be quite blurry in pratice(which is why Dr. Feser aways emphasizes that servitude is normally better to not be permited at all) and that slave owners who would want to find Church "support" to their actions would not exactly have a philosopher precision as well.
*forgot if that is the right word
Apparently, you've never heard of Nick Fuentes. Y'know, one of the most important figures on the modern American Right? The self-proclaimed Catholic, who is also an unashamed Hitler fan? The one who the Republican Party is tearing itself apart over whether to accept or reject? The one who the current Vice President publicly refused to condemn at a major conservative event? You could also add Milo Yiannopoulos and Steve Bannon to this list. Apparently none of this exists in your world, and I'm just a silly troll making childish accusations. Try spending ten minutes searching around Fisheaters if you want more evidence.
DeleteI think Dr. Feser is eliding race and ethnicity a bit here.
ReplyDeleteA nation or people is necessarily an ethnic group (hence "ethno"-nationalism is a redundancy) whereas, while common racial descent is a normal and natural part of ethnicity, it is not strictly necessary - either for an ethnic group or, consequently, for a nation.
Its entry on “Race” distinguishes the notion of race from the notions of people and nation. Race, it says, concerns anatomical and physiological features. A people, by contrast, is a “sociological entity,” and “one and the same people may consist of various races” (p. 1015). And a nation is “a political entity made up not only of diverse races but of diverse peoples and inhabitants of different territories who are nevertheless united to some degree by the same cultural ties” (ibid.).
ReplyDeleteSo to illustrate with a concrete example: the problem with the American nation isn't the 'black race'; the problem is the 'black people.' (Like they say: Guns don't kill people, black people kill people.) At least I guess that's what Ed's (unidentified) "notorious online Catholic rightwingers" might say.
"The nation is an extension of the family, and like family members, citizens of a nation are typically related by common ancestry. However, in neither case is this strictly necessary."
ReplyDeleteHow could it not be strictly necessary that a family has common ancestry? Is there any family in the world that doesn't have common ancestry? No. There is no family or nation that lacks common ancestry. There may be some family members that lack the ancestry, but they're the exception that proves the rule. Nations sound meaningless according to catholicism. Peoples apparently have meaning.
How could it not be strictly necessary that a family has common ancestry?
DeleteUmmm, here's 2 ways: first, by adoption. When parents adopt an infant whose biological parents have died, the new parents and adopted child are members of ONE family. Second, by marriage: when a man marries a woman of a different background, they form the nucleus of ONE new family, related by marriage and not by ancestry. The kids born of them will, of course share ancestry by being children of the same parents, but beyond that the kids will share TWO different strains of more remote ancestry. The Bible gives us examples of marriages made of two people from different root stocks (Ruth and Boaz, from Moab and Judah). When they do this, in approximation they either form a fresh, new culture that is distinct as the merger of the two prior cultures from which they came, or one spouse adopts the other culture (as did Ruth).
The first is of course the exception. The second, though, is the norm.
Dr McPike: You Canadians don't have a gun violence problem like we Americans do. Thankfully.
ReplyDeleteIt's 2026 where I am. I wish everyone a Happy New Year.
ReplyDeleteControversial point: the word “nation” designates a “use-object” like “hammer” or “chair” rather than a natural kind like “gold” or “dodo.” That doesn’t mean just anything can function as a nation though in the same way one cannot use shaving foam to hammer.
ReplyDeleteThe geneticist David Reich, who is politically on the left, said in his book (Who we are) that when the genes that influence intelligence and behavior are found they will vary from race because the genes for everything do.
ReplyDeleteEvery year tens of millions of IQ and IQ-correlated tests are administered and they never show no difference. There are also adoption studies (Minn) and admixture studies.
Even people who are skeptical of group differences (eg, Flynn) think there is a genetic component to the high IQ of Ashkenazi Jews.
Hypothetically granting the above is true I am not sure it’s relevant to the claim Ed is making. The idea there are statistically heritable dispositions of temperament even in the crude form of “hot climates breed passionate peoples” has been around since antiquity. What matters is that these dispositions don’t abolish agency—if they do frankly there will be way bigger problems having scientific rationality.
DeleteThe USA was originally inhabited by Native Americans or American Indians. We took this land from them. My Cherokee Indian brother- in- law, a lawyer, reminds me of that occasionally.
ReplyDeleteRace? Who do think originally settled this land? We displaced the Indians, the Native Americans.
ReplyDelete