That idea
alone makes Hegel’s arguments worthy of our consideration. For it would certainly be of interest if it
turned out that the fundamental problems with pseudosciences like phrenology
and physiognomy had to do, not with their inadequacies vis-à-vis the empirical
evidence, but with deeper philosophical assumptions they share with purportedly
more empirically plausible and respectable versions of materialist
reductionism. The arguments are not,
however, presented with maximal crispness.
But they are suggestive and worth trying to tease out. What follows is an attempt to do so (and its
focus is on Hegel as MacIntyre reads him rather than on Hegel’s own texts).
The appeal to the past
MacIntyre
notes several ways in which Hegel takes there to be a mismatch between brute anatomical
and physiological facts on the one hand, and human thought and action on the
other. But it seems to me that there are
two main lines of argument identified by MacIntyre. The first, as I understand it, goes like
this. Scientific explanations, including
physiological explanations, appeal to general propositions, such as
propositions of the form “For every x, if x is F then x is G.” For example, we might explain why a
particular glass of water froze by saying “For every x, if x is water then x
will freeze at 32 degrees Fahrenheit.”
Our predicates F and G refer to universals, and we explain the
particular phenomenon by simply noting that it is an instance of a completely
general truth.
However,
Hegel argues, human actions cannot be understood in this way. Suppose, for example (mine, not Hegel’s or
MacIntyre’s), that you have a fight with your brother over some longstanding
grudge between the two of you. Properly
to explain this event requires reference to particular earlier events in your
history, such as a promise to you that he once broke, or an occasion when you
publicly insulted and embarrassed him.
And those events will in turn be explicable in terms of yet other and
earlier particular events. Understanding
the character of these events will also involve attention to a variety of contextual
details, such as who exactly was present on the occasion you publicly insulted
him, and exactly what it was he had promised to do and why it was significant. Furthermore, it will involve attention to how
all the relevant parties conceived of
these various details.
These
circumstances, thinks Hegel (as presented by MacIntyre) simply cannot be
captured in general propositions of the kind to which scientific explanations
appeal. In particular, there are no true
generalizations to the effect of “For every x and every y, if x and y are
brothers and x breaks a promise to y, then x and y will get in a fight several
years later” (or whatever). What makes
the sequence of events intelligible, in Hegel’s view, is not that it is a
particular instance of a general pattern, where all events of the one kind will
be followed by events of the other.
Rather, that you acted in light of certain particular, contingent historical circumstances is an ineliminable
aspect of the story, and cannot be captured in general or lawlike
propositions. You are responding to those circumstances qua particular, not
to just any old circumstances that happened to be of that general type. As MacIntyre writes, “to respond to a
particular situation, event, or state of affairs is not to respond to any situation,
event, or state of affairs with the same or similar properties in some respect;
it is to respond to that situation conceived
by both the agents who respond to it and those whose actions constitute it as
particular” (p. 329).
What should
we think of this argument? I’m not
sure. Certainly it would need much
tightening up before it could be judged compelling. However, it does seem to be at least in the
general ballpark of arguments that I think are powerful. For example, it is reminiscent of Donald
Davidson’s famous principle
of the anomalism of the mental, according to which there can be no
strict laws by which mental events might be predicted and explained. (Though Davidson’s argument too needs
tightening up.)
The appeal to the future
What seems
to me to be a second, distinct Hegelian argument discussed by MacIntyre (albeit
not characterized by him as such) is expressed in this passage:
From the fact that an agent has a given trait, we cannot deduce what he will do in any given
situation, and the trait cannot itself be specified in terms of some
determinate set of actions that it will produce… [T]he crucial fact about
self-consciousness… is, its self-negating quality: being aware of what I am is
conceptually inseparable from confronting what I am not but could become. Hence, for a self-conscious agent to have a
trait is for that agent to be confronted by an indefinitely large set of
possibilities of developing, modifying, or abolishing that trait. Action springs not from fixed and determinate
dispositions, but from the confrontation in consciousness of what I am by what
I am not. (p. 331)
The idea
here seems to be that to be conscious of oneself as an agent is, of its nature,
precisely to be conscious of the possibility of an indefinite number of
alternative choices. By contrast, to
understand an anatomical or physiological feature is to know it as limited to a
certain specific and relatively narrower range of effects in might have. Whereas, in Hegel’s first argument, the idea
is that a reductionist physiological explanation cannot account for the
significance of one’s past, in this argument the idea is that it cannot account
for the openness of one’s future.
To make the
point a little clearer, consider this passage from earlier in MacIntyre’s
essay:
The relation of external appearance, including the facial
appearance, to character is such that the discovery that any external
appearance is taken to be a sign of a certain type of character is a discovery
that the agent may then exploit to conceal his character. (p. 325)
The point
here seems to be this. Suppose someone
told me that he could, from my facial expressions, read off my character and
thus predict my future actions. Knowing
this, I could make sure that in the future I avoid the facial expressions I
would otherwise normally be inclined toward, so that my interlocutor will be
thrown off and his predictions will fail.
Similarly, suppose someone told me that, based on what he had determined
from scanning my brain, he predicted that I would make a cup of coffee in the
next half hour. Even if I were inclined
to do so, I could now choose otherwise simply to prove him wrong. There’s an openness to alternative possibilities
in the behavior of human beings that differentiates them from the rigid
behavior of merely physical systems, including those that comprise the micro-level
parts of human beings considered in isolation from the whole.
This line of
thought calls to mind the similar argument
developed by Jean-Paul Sartre in Being
and Nothingness. He famously draws a
distinction there between being-in-itself
and being-for-itself. Being-in-itself is the kind of reality had by
a mere physical object as it exists objectively or independently of human consciousness. It is simply given or fixed. By contrast, being-for-itself, which is the
human agent, is consciousness as it projects forward toward an unrealized
possibility. Unlike being-in-itself, it
is open to different possibilities rather than entirely fixed or determined. To deny free will is essentially to conflate
being-for-itself with being-in-itself, but this cannot be done, because they
are simply irreducibly different. Naturally,
Sartre’s argument, and Hegel’s too, would require tightening up if we are to make
them compelling.
Now, the
general idea that the conceptual and logical structure of thought are simply
irreducibly different from, and inexplicable in terms of, any collection of
physical facts and their causal relations, is something I defend rigorously and
at length in chapters 8 and 9 of my book Immortal
Souls. I take it that Hegel’s
first argument is aiming at something like that conclusion. And the general idea that human action is
irreducibly teleological, and in particular that it cannot be analyzed in terms
of efficient-causal relations (of the kind that obtain between physiological
phenomena, for example) is something I defend in depth in chapter 4 of the
book. I take it that Hegel’s second
argument is aiming at something like that conclusion.
Hence I am, in a very general way, sympathetic at least to the basic idea of the kind of position MacIntyre attributes to Hegel. I leave as a homework exercise the question whether there are, in that position, ingredients for a line of argument that is both compelling and independent of considerations of the kind I set out in the book.
Phrenology and physignomy are indeed pseudosciences. And so is chiromancy. But not always. Unfortunately, not always. As Shakespeare said, "There are more things in heaven and earth that are dreamed of in your philosophy."
ReplyDeleteI doubt that's what Shakespeare was getting at.
DeleteWhat Shakespeare said encompasses phenomena that can't always be explained, such as chiromancy, which is almost almost quackery. But as I said, unfortunately, not always.
DeleteSorry, meant to submit this with my name attached =)
ReplyDeleteRegarding the second argument. It seems clear that if one knows about the physical characteristic-based prediction of future human behavior, then one can act, freely, otherwise.
However, that does not seem to address whether such physical characteristic-based predictions can, in principle and without one’s knowledge, can be accurate.
I still tend to think that human behavior is by nature not predictable in the same way as for non rational substances. The trouble is that I’m not sure how this argument would answer the objection, “It only appears that physical characteristic-based predictions of the future are impossible due to our limited knowledge. There could come a day when we have a brain scan that gives us enough info to accurately predict human behavior (a la Minority Report).”
That's a really interesting question I've been thinking about for a while! There's quite a bit about this topic on the Internet, but the one I remember the most is one of the computer scientist Scott Aaronson's essays, "The Ghost in the Quantum Turing Machine." As he himself states, he tends towards reductionism and a computational explanation of human behavior (though he feels consciousness is mysterious), so he's coming at it from a very different perspective than, say, the A-T one.
DeleteHowever, he mentions that even if the brain is fully governed by the known laws of physics, there might still be physical limitations on how much can be learned about this system. He isn't sure what the exact limits are, though he discusses potentially unpredictable quantum fluctuations from the Big Bang, and thinks it's an important question to research (the posts are more than a decade old, so I'm not sure how much research has been done since then, unfortunately). Here's a link to a blog post about these topics (which also has a link to the essay paper I mentioned earlier): https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=1951
One interesting thing he mentions in the blog post comments is that *if* your behavior is generated by a computable function, then a predictor with all of the information about you would be able to produce a computer program that outputs your behavior correctly, *even if the predictor tells you the program*, due to a thing in computer science called the Recursion Theorem. Another thing he mentions, though, is that a perfect predictor would probably have to have a perfect copy of you - and if multiple instances of "you" exist, it's unclear whether any theory of rational behavior even works (though some people have tried...) He feels it's serious enough, despite his reductionist inclinations, to at least think more deeply about certain assumptions (though he does still consider rationality computable).
But are reductionism and physicalism accurate in the first place? I'm less certain than Feser is that the answer is "no." However, I have found some interesting arguments against them as well from different perspectives, including one paper claiming to be an outright mathematical proof that intentionality is incompatible with physicalism. It's not about predicting behavior per se, but it is interesting in its own right and I've wanted to discuss it for a while. I'll probably post it later, once I find it again and think about how to explain it in a comment.
Hello TC,
DeleteI think you should give a read to what Ed says about this on Immortal Souls. The "Part One: What is Mind?" is a great start. You will find a powerful answer - IMO - on the chapters "The Intellect" and "The Will." In these two, Ed develops and presents, in a very understandable manner, the argument from the Immateriality of the Intellect and, also, the indeterminacy of physical facts (he developed and defended the argument presented by the late James Ross).
What is also relevant to state is the fact that even naturalists (like Quine) agree about the indeterminacy of the physical facts, so it is something that is widely acknowledged. And I must say it is not a problem about "limited knowledge" or "knowing less" about this or that phenomenon -- it's more like a metaphysical roadblock on the materialist way.
Btw, if you are interested, there is a video on YouTube where Ed talks about this: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6GmCyKylTw).
I really hope that helps!
I would also like to know of an answer to that question, as encountering a "metaphysical roadblock" seems difficult with how scientific research seems to point out more and more at how the brain, genetics, environment and behaviour are related in a more and more predictable way, and their mechanisms are ever being discovered.
DeleteHey, Anon.
DeleteI will try to make the point more clearly. In my mind, at least, this matter is settled, but since we live in a world impressed by these advances, it's worth giving a better answer.
One great problem with your point is the "seems" part. There are a lot of things that seem like this or like that, but to be coherent is a completely different story -- and the scientists or theorists are not doing a good job on that. For a start, they all presuppose a metaphysical view (e.g., reductionism, a half-baked humeaninsm, and so on) so they can get the experimental data to *show* something. This data always needs to be interpreted, it is simply not a given.
To be sure, not everyone believes in metaphysics, but its primariness in every pre-scientific discussion must be acknowledged (even the guy who denies metaphysics is already doing metaphysics in his mind!). For example, Ed always gives us the (most evident) example of the existence of change or motion. It is not something that science can "show," it is a basic given of reality, but its nature must be interpreted with a solid metaphysical background, not the other way around.
Now, since your example revolves around "predicting behavior," let me focus on the free-will experiments and the ilk of guys who try to advance this narrative. Basically, every single scientist is not a philosopher -- and most of the time, very bad at philosophy. The so-called free-will experiment started with Benjamin Libet, and the basic metaphysical core assumptions haven't changed since then, i.e., free will is the "wish" or "urge" to do this or that (notice that not everybody will accept this crude Descartesque and Lockean-like caricature of free will). Guys that followed this experiment later (e.g., Patrick Haggard, Haldane, and so on) always relied on this basic premise (that free will is something that you feel, or urge, or "have impulses" and so on).
Notice also that you don't need to be a Thomist to see how stupid and poor this basic idea of free will is. To be clear, to feel an urge, a feeling, a will is not something that you are actively doing -- it's something that you are passively suffering! For example, if I'm feeling "the urge" to go to the fridge, grab a Pepsi can while listening to "Just the Two of Us," from Bill Withers, it is not something that I'm doing in the same sense as I do when I reason if I really should drink that Pepsi (since I might be getting fat, for example).
On the other hand, the lab tests that these guys do, even though ingenious, suffer from this same basic problem. You need to press this or that button when you feel the urge, the feeling, the sensation. Even though they might use the word "deliberation" here or there, it is a nonchalant and imprecise way of saying the very same basic idea I've mentioned above. And, they simply put a test subject (a person) to make predetermined decisions (e.g., press this or that button when you feel the urge). In short, they simply evacuate the distinctive and definitive trace of human being out of the test -- since they explicitly eliminate the rational or intellectual evaluation. You simply are, for the purposes of the test, deprived of reasoning. You can only "choose" this or that button, this or that number, and so on, but it is all based on the "urge," or "feeling."
So, it is very easy to say that your experiment is a "success" in predicting behavior, since you already decided what counts as a "free action" or even what actions -- and how those actions are to be made -- are counted for in the first place.
Hope that helps, Anon. Btw, give it a careful and attentive look at what Ed has to say about this in Immortal Souls. I'm pretty sure that it would help you more than I do!
Good point. However, what would happen if, say, future brain scans could predict the results of someone's complex rational evaluations (not just simple, trivial things such as pressing buttons, which as you point out aren't very relevant to this topic) with high accuracy before the person themself went through the whole decision-making process? (And, as pointed out in other comments, the results would not be revealed to the person beforehand - or perhaps would be but encrypted, or even as a computer program as I discussed above?) Would you say that such a scenario is just impossible? It does seem to be a matter of empirical evidence, but it does raise serious philosophical problems.
DeleteThere's the "multiple copies of you" issue that was brought up earlier. But even further than that, there's the nature of rationality itself. If rational decisions can be predicted by, say, a brain scan and the laws of physics (neither of which make direct reference to rationality), it seems there are two possibilities - one, all decisions are actually caused by nonrational factors and reasoning is an illusion (I agree this is unacceptable, because it leads to global skepticism about all arguments and evidence), or two, reasoning itself is reducible to things expressible in terms that do not mention rationality. For the non-eliminativist physicalist - and even for non-physicalists who believe human [i]behavior[/i] is predictable from the laws of physics (David Chalmers may be an example) - option 2 seems more palatable, and I've already read things that implicitly or explicitly take it (for instance, the AI definition of rationality as "optimal behavior given a certain performance measure and sensory inputs").
But of course, it seems that the meanings of our thoughts are relevant to whether we are rational or not. Of course, many might argue that a detailed enough brain scan, the physical facts in general, etc. will allow the predictor to know those meanings and the rational reasons for our decisions, showing that rationality is reducible. In fact, I have heard claims that modern AI systems can reason, and therefore show how this reduction works. I think I might really need to post a summary of that paper I mentioned earlier about intentionality, mathematics, and physicalism soon.
Hi again, Anon!
DeleteIt seems to me that there is an implicit error of reasoning in your question. To clarify, I will quote the exact part, step by step.
"However, what would happen if, say, future brain scans could predict the results of someone's complex rational evaluations (not just simple, trivial things such as pressing buttons, which as you point out aren't very relevant to this topic) with high accuracy before the person themself went through the whole decision-making process? (And, as pointed out in other comments, the results would not be revealed to the person beforehand - or perhaps would be but encrypted, or even as a computer program as I discussed above?) Would you say that such a scenario is just impossible? It does seem to be a matter of empirical evidence, but it does raise serious philosophical problems."
As I see it, the major error in here is the part where a system "could predict the results of someone's complex rational evaluations [...] with high accuracy before the person themself went through the whole decision-making process?" This is incoherent, Anon, because we must ask ourselves why and how could a brain (or whatever part of it) could even know before-hand what will happen in the first place.
Even if there is some kind of distinction between the person or self and his brain on the other hand (as these scientists presume), the brain will have to know a fact beforehand to even know how it would act -- and this violates the logic of time itself! Times move on progressively, and it is, most of the time (no pun intended), composed of trivial or contingent matters. To predict a decision beforehand, the brain would have the power to see or predict future events before they even happen! For example, if my brain already knows what it will do on next Friday 13, it must already know beforehand the events of that day -- and that is simply impossible. Of course, this argument needs a better tying, but we all can see the core of the problem right now.
"But even further than that, there's the nature of rationality itself. If rational decisions can be predicted by, say, a brain scan and the laws of physics (neither of which make direct reference to rationality)"
Now, we have two problems. First, as you noted in your last paragraph, the nature of our thoughts has a relation to our capacity for rationality. But, the major point you are confused about here is exactly the problem of meaning and indeterminacy of content that I said in earlier comments. Quine, for example, gave us the "Gavagai" problem. Is it "Lo, a rabbit," a "Part of a rabbit," or some other thing related to a rabbit? Physical facts alone cannot have that kind of determinacy. The same goes for the brain scan. This metaphysical slack between our thoughts and the so-called prediction is not a matter of a lack of knowledge about the relevant facts, but, in fact, a matter of impossibility in physical terms alone. As I said earlier, it will always be a matter of interpretation (which is the distinct aspect of the rationality, which has a determinate content), not of a physical fact (which is indeterminate by its nature).
To put it into the perspective of the brain now. Various parts of the brain work together when you think, for example, about the concept of a hammer, a nail, a dog, and so on. It is very similar to the "many-many problem" in biology (i.e., many genes are related to the manifestation of a single phenotype, in the same way various parts of the brain and, most of the time, the same parts work together to generate a different and single 'concept').
(I will continue bellow)
(continuation)
DeleteThe second problem is the appeal to laws of nature. It is very, very misleading and elusive to even fathom the idea that there might be a law of nature for something like thoughts or laws of logic. It is simply a great mistake to even think that there is a law of nature that may *cause* thoughts or a rational sequence -- the scientists who think that must never have put their hands on a logic book in their lives. When you use reason from one premise to another, the first premise DOES NOT cause the other to be linked or exist in the rational chain.
Now, consider every day-to-day contingent things that we do regularly. There is simply no way to make a law of nature, or physics, or whatever that could fit this description. Laws of nature, as the way most people see it, are necessary facts. But, our contingent actions, if they are to be accounted in a law-of-nature way at all, we would have to have a "law of nature" for this contingent thought, that one or the other one -- and that is simply incoherent, to say the least.
Finally, what a machine or an AI thinks about intelligence or rationality is irrelevant. You don't need to be an Aristotelian to see that AI and similar are fabricated things, i.e., some guy had to put the parts together for it to work or mimic the way, or be similar to us. I really find it unbelievable that many people are surprised by AI in this way.
Finally, what a machine or an AI thinks about intelligence or rationality is irrelevant. You don't need to be an Aristotelian to see that AI and similar are fabricated things, i.e., some guy had to put the parts together for it to work or mimic the way, or be similar to us. I really find it unbelievable that many people are surprised by AI in this way.
In all of that, I think that the major problem is not these arguments, but the way you shaped your mind around these issues (and I'm not trying to offend you or even mock you by saying this!). It doesn't matter how solid or if the argument really packs a punch, you will still be skeptical about it because you are simply ignoring the evaluation and force behind these arguments. I think you should read more about the problems and the incapacity of these reductionists to deal with reality instead of being impressed by their *discoveries*. There are a lot of problems with their worldview -- ones that they simply ignore -- but these problems are the grounding basis of reality that they could never get rid of.
As a Gen Z, I know how strong and impressive these arguments presented by "science" may seem -- I suffered a lot from that myself. But, after years and years of evaluation (and help from a good friend like Ed), I can say clearly that these impressive *discoveries* and *advances* are just a spell that we must break, and, to be able to do that, you must be skeptical and question their own foundational reductionist basis. The worldview of today keeps us trapped in this dome (or straitjacket to be more precise) of naturalism. But, if I could say so myself, this dome is simply a thin layer of glass that, once you break it, you can see clearly that it was something that was keeping you stuck and captive of the real world as it is.
Hope that helps, Anon. Btw, sorry if my grammar is a little bit off or bad. It seems that I got a little rusty from here to there.
Hi, I am anon from June 9, the other anon is another person.
DeleteOne problem I have with this kind of arguments is that there is a lot of "this shouldn't be that way", "you were educated with an erroneous mindset" and such, and those are not really arguments with evidence. Another case is the other anon saying for example that some view must be "palatable" instead of requiring that it must be true. Philosophy must be an exercise of truth, not necessarily logical confort.
Now, regarding what I think is an argument:
"Now, consider every day-to-day contingent things that we do regularly. There is simply no way to make a law of nature, or physics, or whatever that could fit this description. Laws of nature, as the way most people see it, are necessary facts. But, our contingent actions, if they are to be accounted in a law-of-nature way at all, we would have to have a "law of nature" for this contingent thought, that one or the other one -- and that is simply incoherent, to say the least."
First I think there is a non sequiteur, why would that be "simply incoherent"? Why could there not be variations of physical laws that describe human behavior? (Supposing already that all rationality is subject to physical laws).
And we sort of see how physical laws affect our behavior even if we cannot describe it rigorously yet. If I take certain medication, my brain is affected and my thought processes too, my will can be made stronger or weaker by medication, physical trauma information, hope or loss of hope (which is related to imagination, the images of the mind in Saint Thomas language). For example, it has been studied that lead in gasoline in the 70s caused a lot of people to be more neurotic and conscientious, affecting their behavior and decisions. And like that there are a lot of cases.
Hey, Anon from June 9.
DeleteYou said, "One problem I have with this kind of arguments is that there is a lot of "this shouldn't be that way", "you were educated with an erroneous mindset" and such, and those are not really arguments with evidence."
Well, the good thing is that I never really based my argument on that sort of thing you are talking about (for noticing that, you only have to read my earlier comments). I never said "this shouldn't be that way," also -- all I have said is that these scientists and theorists presuppose an incoherent metaphysics. And, by the way, I presented a lot of arguments trying to show that (e.g., the poor metaphysics behind the free will experiments, a bad understanding of the nature and indeterminacy of physical content, and so on) are rooted in a bad misunderstanding of metaphysics. If you're not taking it from me, you should read what Ed and other authors have to say about it, too.
As for evidence, what do you even mean by "evidence?" Until you tell me clearly what you really mean by that, I can only guess what the *true* meaning of evidence is as you mean it.
You also said, "First I think there is a non sequiteur, why would that be "simply incoherent"? Why could there not be variations of physical laws that describe human behavior? (Supposing already that all rationality is subject to physical laws)."
That would be simply incoherent because the very concept of a law is to be understood as something that is applied to every physical phenomenon, universally, undistinctively, and pattern-like. But, by merely raising that possibility (i.e. that there could be a law of nature that applies to human behavior), you simply showed us that you don't even understand what a law of nature is -- much less how problematic it would be to say that there is a law of nature for every single contingent human action! Like Ed said in the post, there are a lot of reasons and details that enter into the very intricacies of any single action. So, if you could, per impossible, have a law for EVERY SINGLE contingent thing (so as to make it a pattern) for human behavior (and the reasons leading to it), you would have to have an infinite number of *laws.* How could you even know if it was this or that law -- or even any law at all -- that was applied for this or that action? Actions can resemble one another in a sense, but not in another. They can all have different causes and motivations. But to even say that there might be a law at all that applies to actions, this purported law would have to cover 'a lot of ground,' so to speak, and we can't have that.
Lastly, you said "And we sort of see how physical laws affect our behavior even if we cannot describe it rigorously yet. If I take certain medication, my brain is affected and my thought processes too, my will can be made stronger or weaker by medication, physical trauma information, hope or loss of hope (which is related to imagination, the images of the mind in Saint Thomas language). For example, it has been studied that lead in gasoline in the 70s caused a lot of people to be more neurotic and conscientious, affecting their behavior and decisions. And like that there are a lot of cases."
Not a single Thomist has ever argued that we are not affected or immune to physical laws, or even intangible to chemical effects (by the way, if you really paid attention to my Pepsi example, you literally can see that I'm affirming something like that!). Honestly, to this point, I don't even know what you are trying to accomplish with this statement.
(Part 1)
DeleteYeah, I'm a different anon from the other one (the person who quoted the phrase "metaphysical roadblock"). Instead, I'm the anon who brought up Scott Aaronson earlier. This is confusing, so I'll think about whether to create a username for myself or not.
Anyway, thanks for your reply, Vini Tadeo! So going through it again... About the brain not being able to predict the future, think about computer programs. Two computer programs running on two separate computers, but with the same inputs, will produce the same outputs. (Unless the programs use a random number source, but in that case the random numbers could also be treated as inputs, so if the programs also receive the same random numbers, they will still produce the same outputs.) The program itself does not "know" what its output will be before it has run to that point. But if you have a copy of that same program with all of the same inputs, you can run that copy, and if you do it faster, you can "predict the future of the program" that way before the original copy finishes running.
So, the idea is of a program perfectly simulating a human brain and all inputs. (Of course, there's the extremely significant issue of *how in the world someone would have access to all of this information, including all inputs*. As Step2 has hinted, this seems implausible. However, perhaps in this hypothetical it could be managed a bit - for instance, if you were going through rational deliberation in a featureless locked room, the inputs might be easier to simulate.) But *if* this could be done (and some have argued that the current laws of physics don't prevent it from being done in principle), then the issue would arise if a predictor ran the brain simulation program and always got the same behavioral output as you did after you deliberated.
However, I actually agree that intentionality, meaning, and physical indeterminacy are, at least, more serious problems for physicalism than physicalists often think (at least non-philosophers). Now, I have read sophisticated physicalist philosophers who do realize the issue and put a lot of intellectual effort into either trying to reduce intentionality (even if they don't succeed) or trying to make eliminativism coherent (even if they also don't succeed). However, it seems a lot of scientists and general people on the Internet think that there is an *obvious* physical explanation of intentionality, and any suggestion of a problem is just unscientific obscurantism. Back in my really unreflective days, I just assumed that scientists had already found out how meaning was stored in brains. Even now, I certainly can't say I agree with everything Dr. Feser writes, but I'm not a physicalist and I think I understand at least somewhat more about intentionality than I did before.
About the laws of nature part, I was talking about laws of physics, not hypothetical laws of thought or logic. The idea being discussed is about theoretically using the laws of physics to predict the results of rational deliberation, such as the words you use in an argument (it takes physical actions for someone to speak or write). I think Donald Davidson's principle of the anomalism of the mental (which Dr. Feser discusses in another blog post) provides a good way of clarifying related concepts. In his view, if I understand it correctly, while there are no laws that can predict events described in mental terms, there are laws that can predict events described in physical terms. For instance, take the example of a fight between brothers. It is true that a mental description, for instance of the reasons for the fight, does not allow for an absolute prediction beforehand that the fight would happen.
(Part 2)
DeleteHowever, in the physicalist view, if someone (such as Laplace's demon), knew all the physical facts, they *would* be able to predict beforehand that a physical event would happen that could be described as a fight between brothers (or give the exact probability that it would happen, depending on the interpretation of quantum mechanics). A physicalist might say that this is because a description of an event in mental terms is an abstract high-level description of some physical facts and does not include all of the relevant information. For a different example, take a system of particles with a certain temperature. If you only knew the temperature, you would not know the precise microstate of each particle, but if you knew the precise microstate of each particle, you would be able to calculate the temperature. Again, I am not necessarily agreeing with the physicalist view, but just stating it so you understand it better and don't attack a strawman.
Finally, about the mention of AI, I was a bit unclear there, sorry. When I said "AI definition," I was talking about the field of AI and the human researchers in it, not about the machines themselves. I agree that the machines themselves do not think (though I can't be quite as certain as some others that they absolutely never will in the future). I am also unsure about the whole hylemorphic metaphysics, such as whether there actually exist things that are made of parts but have causal powers irreducible to those of their parts, and especially whether there are non-mental things that are that way. However, that isn't as related to the main issue.
I'll respond to the other anon too, because there are a few things they mentioned that weren't addressed earlier. About what is "palatable" versus what is true, I agree that the latter is what matters. I only mentioned palatability in a specific case, and the view I implied was unpalatable was the view that *absolutely all reasoning is an illusion.* It is not a priori that reasoning exists - for instance, there could have been no beings capable of reasoning. (Maybe some views such as classical theism deny that such a thing is possible, but those are contentious, to say the least). However, if rationality is impossible... why are we here discussing things? I think it's basically a transcendental argument - if we are discussing things, we just have to assume reasoning is possible, even if we disagree on its nature. Check out Dr. Feser's discussions of why eliminativism is incoherent. And while Vini already discussed it, I will also emphasize that Thomism accepts that physical things can affect our behavior and even how the intellect functions. What it denies is that physical facts are *sufficient* for explaining rationality. So a physicalist would have to give an explanation of rationality in *purely* physical terms. Good luck with that.
I take that to give an explanation of rationality in purely physical terms would be as difficult as for Thomists to prove the mind-body-soul problem in a convincing way for a wid, mainstream audience. Because, otherwise, there would not be so many objections to the claim of the existence of the soul and its ontological distinctiveness from the brain; and basically everyone would believe in the soul as common sense, and scientists and all modern philosophers would agree, and materialism would obviously be refuted and not flourish. But for some reason that is not the case and Thomism seems not to be so "common sense" when it comes to the brain and the soul, as it is in other areas, like natural theology.
DeleteSuch a nice topic to discuss!
ReplyDeleteI remember that during my university years, I studied criminology and learned about Lombroso and his ilk. Reductionism and scientificism were influential views on penal matters back in the XVIII-XIX centuries. There was even a kind of "medical" or "scientific" police, which was responsible for labeling the so-called "dangeresque classé" (i.e., people with 'dangerous' or 'atavistic' genes, a "dangerous class" of people).
One evident thing, even though irrelevant for philosophical reasoning, was the fact that most of the "scientific discoveries" were just prejudice or preconceived ideas over certain physical or personality traits disguised as "science." There was also a political interest in those views, for sure, so certain 'profilactic' measures would be applied to prevent these "undesirable" people from reproducing or even circulating!
But, at the same time, nowadays at least, the same idea behind phrenology, and the like, is still present in a more subtle and 'convincing' way: through the brain and the so-called free will experiments. The reductionism is exactly the same, it just changes the physical object of application (e.g., from the skull to the grey matter of the brain, or to be precise, the 'Bereitschaftspotential'). I think that one day, these guys will have nowhere to run (or anything else to reduce a phenomena) anymore; the only plausible alternative to this madness, when they finally accept their reductionistic defeat, is to turn back to the human being as a whole.
(Not to be political or anything, but I'm afraid we are still under the same spell of "science" from back in the day -- it is just more politically correct so that it could fit modern society. The lockdowns are a great example of how a bunch of "scientists" with political funding thought that keeping people at home, out of jobs, and desperate was a good "preventive" measure (without mentioning the negative label over those who refuse to comply or to take a jab). And the worst part is, if there is a new pandemic, the same cycle will repeat all over again...)
WCB
ReplyDeleteSkull shape was part and parcel of Nazi racial "science". Aryans had long skulls, blonde hair and blue eyes. Such pseudosciences are not harmless when they become part of racist ideologies. Though none of the high ranking Nazis fit the Aryan prized physiognomies they propagandized for.
WCB
WCB,
DeleteGood to see you back!
I think this argument is a bad one. The idea of phrenology (and similar) is not that behaviour is absolutely determinable from skull shape, but that tendencies in behaviour are. You cannot answer that by saying that behaviour isn't absolutely predictable and people could make other choices.
ReplyDeleteWe also know more about how people make choices now, I think. Most decisions are fairly automatic, and we know we cannot control our gut reactions. People often also say things like that they "don't know" why they did something. That all suggests that we don't have conscious control over all our actions, even if we do have the potential to exercise conscious control over any given action. Therefore we can still be influenced by our inherent tendencies (which may be determined or influenced by factors that also influence seemingly unrelated things like skull shape) even though we are conscious.
The facial expression one is funny in particular. It is a good illustration: you could at any time choose to perform a particular facial expression. But I doubt you could continually, no matter the circumstances, go about a normal life while performing arbitrary consciously-chosen facial expressions at every moment. As soon as you are distracted by an interesting issue or a car crash in next lane or a beautiful woman you will lose focus on controlling your facial expressions and the facial automatism will return, if for but a brief moment.
There seems to be an epistemological angle to this that could be developed. Science is about explicating universal and necessary truths while human actions concern particulars. As one descends from universals to consider particulars, intersecting contrary causal chains, can cause the universal and necessary rules to fail in some particular instance. Throw in the difference between essentially and accidentally related causal changes, like a historical account of the relationship between two brothers, and it can become more difficult to abstract from universal principles what a particular effect is going to be.
ReplyDeletefrom the OP: "For example, we might explain why a particular glass of water froze by saying “For every x, if x is water then x will freeze at 32 degrees Fahrenheit.” Our predicates F and G refer to universals, and we explain the particular phenomenon by simply noting that it is an instance of a completely general truth."
DeleteJames, I think you need to specify what you mean by "necessary truths." Prof. talks about general truths in what I quoted. He is talking about truths in natural science, no? But we say "necessary" in many ways. Aristotle says in AnPo that "anything of which there is, without qualification, knowledge cannot be otherwise." But in Prof's example, presumably there are qualifications to the truth of statements about water's freezing point: pressure, presence of impurities ... Then there are puzzles about possible worlds, e.g. whether God could have willed to give water properties other than those that it has in the actual world while it would still be defined as "water."
Anyway, yes, difficult to abstract from universal principles what a particular effect will be.
Dr. Feser,
ReplyDelete"Similarly, suppose someone told me that, based on what he had determined from scanning my brain, he predicted that I would make a cup of coffee in the next half hour. Even if I were inclined to do so, I could now choose otherwise simply to prove him wrong."
This merely shows that such an improbably precise brain scan needs to include all the inputs the subject has to make an accurate prediction. You can’t drop a new disruptive signal into a predictive behavior model and expect the same outcome.