A solecism
is an ungrammatical utterance, breach of etiquette, or deviation from some
other recognized norm. For instance, “I
could of cared less” is a common grammatical solecism, and addressing King
Charles as “pal” or “buddy” rather than “Your Majesty” would be a solecism
concerning decorum. What Stove had in
mind are abuses of language that he takes certain philosophical lines of
argument to rest on. He offers an
argument from Berkeley as an example.
Berkeley, says Stove, alleges that what it means to say that a certain physical object exists or has some
property is that the object is or could be perceived
to exist or have that property. And from
this Berkeley infers an idealist conclusion.
But in fact, complains Stove, this is obviously not what it means to say that a physical object exists or has some
property. Berkeley’s argument rests on a
manifestly false claim about ordinary usage that he puts forward
matter-of-factly, and in that way he reasons from a “sudden and violent
solecism.”
For purposes
of this article, I put to one side questions about Berkeley’s views and whether
Stove is representing him fairly. What
I’m interested in here is the general idea of the “sudden and violent solecism”
as a rhetorical move. Stove has more to
say about how it works, in his characteristically bitingly witty style:
The premise entails the conclusion
all right, but it is so astoundingly false that it defies criticism, at first,
by the simple method of taking the reader’s breath away… Say or imply, for
example, that in English ‘value’ means the same as ‘individuality’. You can be miles down the track of your
argument before they get their breath back.
This method is not only
physiologically but ethologically sound. Of course it should never be used first. You need first to earn the
respect of your readers, by some good reasoning, penetrating observations, or
the like: then apply the violent
solecism. Tell them, for example, that
when we say of something that it is a prime number, we mean that it was born
out of wedlock. You cannot go wrong this way. Decent philosophers will be so disconcerted by
this, that they will never do the one thing they should do: simply say, ‘That
is NOT what “prime number” means!’ Instead, they will always begin to display feverish ‘displacement
activity’ (in Lorenz’s sense), casting about for an excuse for someone’s saying what you said, or a
half-excuse, or a one-eighth excuse; nor is there any danger that they will
search in vain. And with this, not only
is your philosophy of arithmetic launched, but you have already got other
people working for you, free of charge, at its development. (p. 142)
Note that
Stove here identifies three key components to the rhetorical move in
question. First, the speaker has to have
already independently established his credibility with the listener. He doesn’t open with the solecism, but introduces it only after his audience
has been primed to take seriously whatever he has to say. This might involve his holding an academic
degree or a prestigious academic position, a show of great learning, the
putting forward of arguments of a more obviously sound and uncontroversial
nature, the airing of opinions that are generally considered respectable, and
so on.
Second, when
the solecism is introduced, it has the effect of throwing the listener
off-balance, precisely because it both
sounds counterintuitive but has also been
put forward by someone who seems credible.
Rather than immediately objecting, the listener begins to doubt himself.
“That sure sounds bizarre,” he thinks, “but the speaker is so smart! Maybe I’m
wrong, or maybe I’m misunderstanding
something!”
Third, the
larger social context plays a crucial role in sustaining the rhetorical
effect. It isn’t just that the speaker,
who seems credible, says these weird things.
It’s that other people who
also seem credible take these things seriously even when they acknowledge them
to be weird. They too seem to think that if they object to the odd utterance, they might be the ones who are wrong or
failing to understand. As a result,
rather than criticizing the odd utterance, they look for ways to render it
plausible. Before long, the speaker’s
utterance becomes more than just some weird thing he has said. It becomes a thesis on the menu of possible opinions
that a group of people discuss,
debate, and otherwise regard as worthy of being taken seriously.
John Searle
independently identified a couple of related rhetorical moves, which reinforce
the tactic of “reasoning from a sudden and violent solecism.” In his book The
Rediscovery of the Mind, Searle observes:
Authors who are about to say
something that sounds silly very seldom come right out and say it. Usually a set of rhetorical or stylistic
devices is employed to avoid having to say it in words of one syllable. The most obvious of these devices is to beat
around the bush with a lot of evasive prose… Another rhetorical device for
disguising the implausible is to give the commonsense view a name and then deny
it by name and not by content… And just to give this maneuver a name, I will
call it the “give-it-a-name” maneuver.
Another maneuver, the most favored of all, I will call the
“heroic-age-of-science” maneuver. When
an author gets in deep trouble, he or she tries to make an analogy with his or
her own claim and some great scientific discovery of the past. Does the view seem silly? Well, the great scientific geniuses of the
past seemed silly to their ignorant, dogmatic, and prejudiced contemporaries. Galileo is the favorite historical
analogy. Rhetorically speaking, the idea
is to make you, the skeptical reader, feel that if you don’t believe the view
being advanced, you are playing Cardinal Bellarmine to the author’s Galileo. (pp. 4-5)
Searle
offers the example of philosophers of mind who attack the commonsense
supposition that we have beliefs, desires, hopes, fears, conscious experiences,
and so on by giving it the label “folk psychology.” By discussing it under that label, these
philosophers can make it seem as if the supposition that beliefs, desires,
consciousness, etc. are real is merely one possible theory alongside others, no
less open to debate and doubt. By
criticizing “folk psychology,” they can avoid coming out and straightforwardly
asserting that the human mind does not exist.
By associating their critique with scientific precedent, they can make
it appear as if denying the reality of the mind is no more outrageous than
arguing that the sun is at the center of the solar system.
Note that
what Searle calls the “give-it-a-name” maneuver is essentially a more subtle
version of what Stove calls the appeal to the “sudden and violent
solecism.” What Searle is describing is
also an appeal to a solecism, but one that is disguised and insinuated rather
than sudden and violent. When other
writers adopt the novel labels and go along with treating them as if they named
controversial theories (as talk of “folk psychology” has now become common in
the philosophical literature), we have an instance of what Stove calls
“[getting] other people working for you, free of charge, at [the] development”
of your idiosyncratic ideas. And the
“heroic-age-of-science” maneuver is a method for what Stove describes as “earn[ing]
the respect of [one’s] readers” before introducing the solecism.
A more
recent example of the “give-it-a-name” maneuver is the attaching of labels like
“cisnormativity” and “cisgenderism” to the commonsense supposition that human
beings naturally fall into one of two sexes, male or female. This serves the rhetorical function of
insinuating that the commonsense view is at best merely one tendentious
possibility among others, rather than being obviously correct or even having
any presumption in its favor. The
pretense that something called “transgender studies” has rendered the
commonsense view problematic, or even established its falsity, is a variation
on the “heroic-age-of-science” maneuver.
(“You deny that trans women are women?
You’re a bigot, like those who refused to look through Galileo’s
telescope!”)
Why do
people fall for rhetorical tricks like the ones identified by Stove and
Searle? There are several factors, one
of them being an overestimation of the argument from authority. To be sure, not all arguments from authority
are fallacious. If you believe something
because some expert has said it, you aren’t guilty of a fallacy if you have
good reason to think that the person really does have expertise on the topic in
question and is objective. All the same,
even non-fallacious arguments from authority are, as Aquinas famously
acknowledged (despite often citing authorities himself), nevertheless weak. That an authority says something may give you
some reason to believe it, but not a
terribly strong one, especially if what he says is deeply at odds with the
evidence of everyday experience and common sense. A solecism is a solecism, whatever the
expertise of the person uttering it.
A second
factor is the influence of a vice of excess where open-mindedness is
concerned. Every philosopher is aware of
the dangers of unexamined premises and of foreclosing an investigation too
hastily. But it is possible to go to the
opposite extreme of attributing intellectual value to what is in reality mere
pedantry or nitpicking. This would be an
instance of what Aquinas calls the vice of curiosity. By “curiosity” Aquinas doesn’t mean the
desire for knowledge as such (which is, of course, of itself good) but rather a
desire for knowledge that is disordered
in some way. For example, it may stem
from an unhealthy motivation like pride.
Quibbling over matters that the average person takes for granted can
sometimes reflect, not a genuine desire for deeper understanding, but pleasure
in the feeling of superiority over those perceived as less intelligent or
learned. Or it might reflect an impulse
to undermine or “do dirt on” their decent sensibilities. Or it might stem from a desire to make one’s
reputation by contributing to some body of academic literature that is not
terribly important in itself but helps pad the resume, or by flattering other,
better-known contributors to such a literature who might help one’s career. These factors, I submit, can all contribute
to one’s being taken in by rhetorical moves like the ones identified by Stove
and Searle.
A third
factor is the influence of bad theory. Suppose
you’re already independently convinced that some version of materialism must be
true. Then you’re more likely to take seriously
a “give-it-a-name” maneuver like treating “folk psychology” as if it were some debatable
theory. For you might worry that failing
to do so would close off a possible avenue of escape from anti-materialist
arguments. Treating “folk psychology” as
optional opens the door to eliminative materialism as a “doomsday weapon” to
deploy if all other defenses of materialism fail.
A fourth
factor is the influence of moral vice.
For example, if you have some deeply ingrained sexual perversion,
especially one that you would like to indulge rather than resist, you’re more likely
to take seriously some academic theory you’d otherwise dismiss as crackpot, if
said theory would provide a rationalization for indulging the perversion.
A fifth factor is the influence of what, in an earlier post, I labeled the “associationist mindset.” Ideas that don’t bear any interesting logical relationship to one another can nevertheless come to be closely associated in a person’s mind because of psychological factors such as emotion and past experience. In someone whose capacity for logical reasoning is weak, this can entail a tendency to latch onto silly ideas (such as that punctuality, proper speech and etiquette, and other standards of professionalism are “racist”).
I always thought that "I could of cared less" isn't a solecism; it's *sarcasm*. "oh yeah, I could have cared less about that". (More often, "I could care less", but the meaning's the same.)
ReplyDeleteActually, what makes it a solecism of the grammatical kind is the word "of." It should be "have." But even after correcting that, it would also remain a solecism of a semantic kind insofar as what the speaker really means is that he could not have cared less.
DeleteYes, the sentence is an Americanism. Brits and Australians say, "I couldn't care less."
Delete@Edward Feser
Delete"I could care less" is a 90s saying that started as a clipping of "I could care less but I'd have to try!" Although without knowing the full form, the clipping doesn't make logical sense. (Saying that you could care less means that you still do care.)
I'd say there is another factor explaining why people fall for those rhetorical moves (or, at least, why they do not "disarm" them): cowardice.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, that's one type of an argument that one blogger has called "ex hominem" (https://blog.chrislansdown.com/2021/03/21/the-problem-with-ex-hominem-arguments/), one that relies on the personal qualities of the one who is making an argument. That is, it has form like this:
1. I am smart and honest and knowledgeable.
2. I say that X, and obviously X.
3. If someone who is smart and honest and knowledgeable says that X, and obviously X, then X.
4. Therefore, X.
And the obvious (and pretty much the only) answer, when it is obvious that not-X, is to attack premise 1, effectively claiming "You are either a fool or a liar or ignorant.".
Unfortunately, that's a personal attack. A justified personal attack, but a personal attack nonetheless. And it is very hard to hide it.
So, the one who made the argument will notice it and will claim he has been insulted. And "guardians of decorum", who, by Murphy's law, are likely to be lazy and inattentive, will happily be on his side. Also, "ad hominem fallacy" will be claimed.
And it takes courage to know that this will happen and to respond anyway.
On the plus side, a mere confident assertion "It is obvious that not-X." might be a rather effective response (both reassuring the audience and making it harder for the one who made an argument to keep his rationalisations).
The Latin preposition "ex" requires an object in the ablative case, not the accusative. So it would be "ex homine," not "ex hominem."
DeleteUnfortunately, that's a personal attack. A justified personal attack, but a personal attack nonetheless. And it is very hard to hide it.
DeleteIt may be a kind of personal attack, but obviously it is no MORE a personal attack than the original #1 is a personal promotion.
So render the personal attack less personal in form. For example, you can denature the personal aspect by starting with "It appears that your premise 1 is unfounded, in that the premise regards a person who is either a fool, a liar, or ignorant."
And the obvious (and pretty much the only) answer, when it is obvious that not-X, is to attack premise 1, effectively claiming "You are either a fool or a liar or ignorant."
DeleteEffectively claiming, rather, "You are (or at least might be) smart, honest, and knowledgeable (to some degree hopefully also humble, just, prudent, wise); but in a limited (i.e., human, perhaps all too human) way" -- which isn't any kind of personal attack.
If A and B are both minimally smart, honest, knowledgeable fellows, and A says, "obviously x," to which B replies, "obviously not-x," then perhaps it's obvious that they're both wrong (it's not obvious whether x or not-x), or perhaps they're both right (from different points of view each proposition may be 'obvious': lying in the way, readily met with, easy to come across). But rather than trying to posture for the approval of or influence over some third party audience, both parties -- still assuming they are minimally smart, honest, knowledgeable (humble, just, etc.) -- should then take steps to understand wherein lies the subjective obviousness of their respective opposing positions.
Exactly right. Feser overlooked 'politeness', which is a big one.
DeleteSearle's "give-it-a-name" seems to be Flew's "fallacy of the pseudo-refuting label". Flew's term is better rhetoric - who wants to commit a fallacy, after all?
ReplyDeleteMany thanks for a thought-provoking article, Dr Feser
OP,
ReplyDeleteIndeed.
I have often encountered such put forth by various PhDs, and thus taken very seriously, it seems.
“sudden and violent solecism”
God is existence itself.
God moves outside of space.
God acts outside of time.
God is absolute goodness itself.
“give-it-a-name” maneuver
The unmoved mover.
Pure act.
Teleological.
Divine simplicity.
Immaterial.
The soul.
@StardustyPsyche:
Delete“sudden and violent solecism”
We have no access to extra-mental reality
Reality is hallucinated
We can not know truth
Computers are consciouss
Brute facts are explanations
LNC is not true
We are "legion" (with that one you outdid yourself, Stardusty)
"give-it-a-name” maneuver
Natural selection
Abiogenesis
Ateleological
Multiverse
Property dualism
Evolutionary morality
Complexity
That is, of course, precisely the opposite of the ‘give-it-a-name’ manoeuvre. Having terminology for the thing you are discussing is not at all the same thing as having a dismissive label for the thing that you do not wish anyone to discuss.
DeleteYou might as well say physics is false because physicists use funny words like ‘atom’ and ‘electron’.
Descent,
DeleteYour list is indeed a list of examples of "“sudden and violent solecism”" of the strawman variety.
The form is to reword what materialists actually say into something that appears superficially similar but has a sort of grammatical shock value.
Every item you list is a strawman, certainly for me, and for every materialist I am familiar with.
But that is what I have come to expect from you. You manifestly do not engage honestly, merely spew strawmen.
Tom,
Delete"That is, of course, precisely the opposite of the ‘give-it-a-name’ manoeuvre. Having terminology for the thing you are discussing is not at all the same thing as having a dismissive label for the thing that you do not wish anyone to discuss."
That is a fair distinction to make, but only emphasizes my point.
The "give it a name maneuver" takes different forms for different purposes.
Indeed, as you point out, it might take the form of a mislabel for the purpose of derision.
But it can also take the form of a mislabel for the purpose of lending legitimacy.
If one has a kooky idea to spread one technique is to give it a name that seems to lend credibility to it. For example, if you want to operate a vicious litigious money cult based on bizarre fictions about space aliens dropping atom bombs on souls that now inhabit your body and can only be cleared by giving the cult leader lots and lots of money, then just give it a legitimate sounding name, The Church of Scientology.
Just slapping the word "Church" onto the name will even allow you to run your scam tax free.
I agree that giving whole sets of ideas a name is just using terminology, which is generally legitimate and practical as a means to effectively communicate on the subject.
I listed these items because they are examples of giving an idea a name that then becomes so pervasive that people discuss it as if it somehow made any sense whatsoever.
These are examples of ideas that are utterly nonsensical, but by using the names over and over such nonsense is easily accepted by the credulous.
The unmoved mover.
Pure act.
Teleological.
Divine simplicity.
Immaterial.
The soul.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteThe form is to reword what materialists actually say into something that appears superficially similar but has a sort of grammatical shock value.
Representation theory is literally: "we do not have access to extra-mental reality". From it they are derived the "hallucination part" and the "we can not know truth part". Kant deployed a whole system around it. And it derives directly from materialist (false) premises.
The theory that we do not directly experience reality but can only isolate it by considering it from various vantage points proves on closer inspection to be incoherent. For one thing, it presupposes that one can directly experience a model of the world, as the quotation indicates. If one had to isolate this model itself indirectly by considering reality from various vantage points on one’s own, one would not even know that, on the one hand, there exists a model and, on the other, a world of which we construct internal models. To know that one constructs or even has to construct a model of reality implies knowing something about reality outright, such as that we can only know anything about it indirectly for some reason or other.
- Markus Gabriel I Am Not a Brain
Markus Gabriel is a representant of the German "New Realism" school. He basically says that reductive physicalism and representationalism are for cranks. Which is true.
And you said in our (ongoing) discussion here that "each of us are a multitude" (readers can check for themselves). But again, you are forced to say such things due to the inherent contradictions in materialist premises.
No strawmans, sorry.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteThese are examples of ideas that are utterly nonsensical,
You don't understanding them doesn't convert them in "non-sensical".
And, BTW, is your side the one that is constantly touting that "we should not trust our common sense" because "it has cheated on us all the time".
Common sense is useless according to materialism. You don't have the right to appeal to it.
@StardustyPsyche
DeleteTo be brutally truthful, only "pure act", "unmoved mover", and possibly "divine simplicity" could be considered as candidate solecisms. Teleological, immaterial, and the soul are valid English words with well-defined meanings.
Correction:
DeleteHere's our ongoing discussion (Stardusty vs. UncommonDescent)
And, as per usual, Stardusty is saying a lot of non-sense.
Stardusty is just kind of a troll, I think.
DeleteRepresentation theory is literally: "we do not have access to extra-mental reality". From it they are derived the "hallucination part" and the "we can not know truth part". "
DeleteDoesn't stop these (on their own theory) mindless, soulless, bags of completely predetermined activity - or perhaps we should say, these mere manifestations or effects of prior material processes - from emitting public noises that give every appearance of emanating from a thing which looks to be coincidentally asserting that the emission under consideration has a moral reality and significance rooted in some categorical context ... albeit, while simultaneously denying the existence of real categories, natural kinds, and objective meaning of any sort.
To repeat one of our more familiar thought problems: Margaret Mead in all her squat, pug-faced, troll-like glory, stands on a platform before a class, lecturing students on the complete relativity and ultimate arbitrariness of moral principles, and declaring that moral inhibitions in any objective sense, are based purely on taboos and social conditioning.
(She would not have admitted biological programming, as she was in favor of preserving the "one humanity" concept which even too close a look at and strict interpretion of her own materialist worldview would have ruled out.)
Anyway, to continue ...Upon being informed of and enlightened, not to say liberated, by, this great and world remaking truth, a jock at the back of the room takes a billiard ball from his letter jacket pocket and pitches it straight into her annoying and aesthetically displeasing face.
Now, there are many questions which this hypothesized scenario might provoke.
One of them is: Does the plummet of Mead's corpse from the podium to the tiled floor some feet below, make any noise if no one is listening?
The simpering answer of some - we do not say all - relativists living in a hallucinatory world might be, "We (whoever that might be supposed to be) call that act 'psychopathy' "
Others of a similar bent of mind, or brain, if you prefer that term for your own hallucination, might shug and laconically respond, "We, call it 'Maize ' "
HolyK,
Delete"Teleological, immaterial, and the soul are valid English words with well-defined meanings."
Really? They sound like gibberish to me. Just made up nonsense.
You might just as well have listed pink elephants, unicorns, and elves.
But ok, please do tell me these "well defined meanings"
Teleological
immaterial
soul
@DNW:
DeleteOne of them is: Does the plummet of Mead's corpse from the podium to the tiled floor some feet below, make any noise if no one is listening?
According to Stardusty, "bodies are never stopped", so Margaret Mead would experience an eternal, un-ending, free-fall.
And representation theory, the idola, has its origins in ancient Greece (Lucretius and Democritus). So "modern" and "progressive" these people are that they shamelessly steal from those "uneducated ancients who didn't have telescopies and brain scans" and that they despise so much.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteReally? They sound like gibberish to me.
That's due to your philosophical ineptitude.
Teleological means "having a purpose". Everyone knows that the eye has the purpose of seeing, for instance.
Delete"Immaterial" means "not made of material". If you ever played a video game with a water level like Dire Dire Docks in Super Mario 64, you've encountered an immaterial substance.
And the soul is the set of fixed points of your personality.
@StardustyPsyche
DeleteYou might just as well have listed pink elephants
Pink elephants are absolutely real if you're a drunk!
Pink Elephants on Parade - Walt Disney
HK,
Delete"Pink elephants are absolutely real if you're a drunk!"
You are confusing actual experiences with ontologically independent beings.
Hallucinations are real experiences, which are brain processes. Hallucinations may or may not be good representations of ontologically independently existent objects in real time in the cosmos.
When our hallucinations agree we attribute them to accurate representations of real objects in real time. When our hallucinations occur in dreams or due to drugs they are not accurate representations of real objects in real time.
To believe drug induced hallucinations are accurate representations in real time of actual ontologically existent features of the cosmos is considered to be a mental disorder.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteThen materialism is a mental disorder, because we 'hallucinate' reality according to your side.
@HolyKnowledge,
Delete"Teleological means "having a purpose". Everyone knows that the eye has the purpose of seeing, for instance."
"Everyone knows" is never a good argument. Everyone used to think that the purpose of the brain was to cool the blood. What is the purpose of the non-functioning, vestigial eyes of many cave-dwelling organisms? What is the purpose of a mountain? What is the purpose of leukaemia?
It's simpler to assume that things either can or cannot do something, not that they have the 'purpose' of doing so.
"Immaterial" means "not made of material".
Yes, so it's a useless, parasitic word. Here's something else that's not made of material: nothingness.
"And the soul is the set of fixed points of your personality."
I don't think I've ever heard any two people give the same definition of what a soul is supposed to be. Surely, a personality which was entirely the product of material brain functioning would still have "fixed points"? Also, many (or all) "fixed points" of your personality involve your response to physical things like food or noise - what use would it be for those aspects to survive your death?
I don't know Stove. Have read Searle, though not the book you mention. Some people whom I have encountered on philosophy blogs appear to enjoy willfully misrepresenting ideas and thoughts of other commenters. Or, they intentionally misunderstand what was written, peppering it with inane questions. Harry Frankfurt might have called this bullshit. Or, the bullshit fallacy. I tend to ignore such pedestrian tactics, because of the transparency, unlike real bullshit.
ReplyDeleteWCB
ReplyDelete"A third factor is the influence of bad theory. Suppose you’re already independently convinced that some version of materialism must be true. Then you’re more likely to take seriously a “give-it-a-name” maneuver like treating “folk psychology” as if it were some debatable theory."
Actually, as a materialist, I note materialism seems to be an established, observable fact of existence. As to the concept of supernaturalism, I will note that there is no hard, observable evidence for that. And that supernaturalism and attacks on materialism play a role in theology and claims for God's existence. Which claims involve many self contradictions, problems and as such are unlikely, removing any good reason to take supernaturalism seriously.
During the 1600's with Rene Descartes, this became an issue. How does spirit enteract with material bodies? The attempred answers were in the end, unsatisfying, and even silly. At that time science was being done and this failure meant natural philosophy adopted systematic materialism. Supernaturalism explained nothing so was no longer useful as a metaphysical foundation of natural philosophy.
This all is historical, not some word game. The God of the gaps died long ago. Theology or philosophy of the gaps has little use IN empirical science.
WCB
Your argument would be better received if you were not addressing people who have known all along that Cartesian dualism is rubbish. As it is, we see your straw man for what it is.
DeleteUD
DeleteAdvocates of what I critically call “neurocentrism” act as though they could appeal to scientific discoveries that should not be doubted by reasonable modern citizens and thus to alleged facts recognized by experts. Yet, with its sweeping assumptions, neurocentrism formulates genuinely philosophical claims, which here means claims that one cannot delegate to some other branch of learning. Science itself does not solve philosophy’s problems unaided by philosophy’s interpretation of its results. Neurocentrism is ultimately just bad philosophy trying to immunize itself against philosophical critique by claiming to be justified not by philosophy, but by actual neuroscientific discoveries.
- Markus Gabriel I am Not A Brain
UD
WCB
DeleteMind is a process dependent on a material, physical brain. The evidence for this is undeniable. Ancient and medieval thinkers had no knowlege of cells, biochemistry, synapses et al. No clue about how material brains supported the processes that give us minds.
In the times of Descartes, the dualstic theories pretty much faded away. Today we still have people claiming mind cannot be a mere set of processes based on maerial brains. But have no real theory that can explain how mind is not based on processes of material brains. Nothing that can be demonstrated true with hard evidence. And that is a problem.
There is a great deal of effort underway to identify what causes Altsheimers disease and how to prevent that, and some encouraging signs of successful cures are being found. So this is not just an unimportant and old debate of interest only to philosophers and theologians.
The claims mind is not based on material brains is going nowhere, and explains nothing. Materialism has real world consequences.
WCB
@WCB:
DeleteMind is a process dependent on a material, physical brain. The evidence for this is undeniable.
The hylemorphist agrees. We need a brain. The identity part is the problematic one: "we are our brain" is not true. (Well, not only the hylemorphist agrees. Markus Gabriel is not an hylemorphist philosopher and he says that the identity theory is absurd).
Ancient and medieval thinkers had no knowlege of cells, biochemistry, synapses et al. No clue about how material brains supported the processes that give us minds.
"Modern" materialists don't have a clue about how biochemistry and synapses give rise to the self. They "know" that those processes are involved, but they do not know "how" it happens. Whales have massive brains with a giant number of cells and synapses and yet they are not capable neither of self-awareness (or at least we don't have any proof of that) nor of practicing science or of engaging in philosophy. Your "complexity" lacks explanatory value.
In the times of Descartes, the dualistic theories pretty much faded away.
Hylemorphism is opposed to Descartes. Hylemorphism is the most unitary theory you could have. We are wholes, integers, substances. And that's what your side can not provide, "unity". A "disperse" self is incoherent. And science won't help you, because it's a problem of definitions. It's a conceptual, not an empirical one.
The claims mind is not based on material brains is going nowhere, and explains nothing.
It's based on, but it's not the whole edifice. Hylemorphism is neither Cartesian Dualism nor Idealism.
Philosophy is moving, WCB.
Materialism has real world consequences.
Yes, it destroys any society it touches. And we are witnessing it.
@WCB
Delete"In the times of Descartes, the dualstic theories pretty much faded away."
LOL are you serious? The times of Descartes are exactly those in which the dualistic theory of mind flourished. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
@WCB:
ReplyDeleteActually, as a materialist, I note materialism seems to be an established, observable fact of existence.
A system full of holes is certainly not an "observable fact of existence".
Which claims involve many self contradictions, problems and as such are unlikely, removing any good reason to take supernaturalism seriously.
Materialism contradicts science by blocking access to external reality, by being incapable of explaining the self and by being incapable of explaining how we attain truth (materialism doesn't have even a coherent definition for "truth"). Materialists like you say that the LNC may not hold, the same law that you apply to "poke holes" in other systems. Materialism is self-referentially absurd.
Materialists have not offered a single proof of the brain being the self. In fact, all proofs point to the contrary. And neuroscience certainly does not support the brain/self identity.
WCB
DeleteIn ancient times, there were no telescopes, no microscopes, no real knowlege of chemistry, biochemistry, physics, quantum physics, cosmology and on and on. This lead to lots of speculation, and bizarre theological ninsense. No we are far beyond the blind theorizing of ancient or medieval theorizers. The real world is far different from anything these ancients could imagine.
Yet some ancient speculations live on as zombie ideas that refuse to die. Because they have become seens as foundations of theological systems.
Since materalist science is not a finished project yet, we have theology and philosophy of the gaps. But that is all there is against materialism.
What about these gaps? Can people seriously claim maybe supernaturalism might be true, hiding in these gaps? Because equally, materialists can claim in these gaps it will be materialism, which as many gaps have closed over the years, is all that has been demonstrated.
Or possibly, there might be something in these gaps that is not supernaturalism, or materialism as we understand that. But something so alien we cannot concieve of it. Beware of playing the gap card. We can play games with that too. Supernaturalism lacks imagination as to what is hiding in these gaps.
WCB
WCB, it is impressive how you are able to display every single example of fallacious argumentation that was mentioned in this post.
Delete@WCB:
DeleteYou don't have a clue as to how synapses "create" the mind. If you have a theory, please share it with us.
@WCB:
DeleteSince materalist science is not a finished project yet, we have theology and philosophy of the gaps. But that is all there is against materialism.
By the same token, your side only has "future science of the gaps". But "future science" is not actual science. It's akin to waiting for the Messiah.
Or possibly, there might be something in these gaps that is not supernaturalism, or materialism as we understand that. But something so alien we cannot concieve of it.
The problem with your account is that, in the end, we can never have any actual knowledge. We are creatures always believing that "this time we got it right", but it's just an illusion. Science is never secure, it may be overturned at any moment. The History of Science is littered with error and abandoned theories. And that's the road to full-blown skepticism ("why bother if we can not know anything at all"?). That's what ancient civilizations believed. The whims of the gods were inescrutable, so why bother practicing "science"? "Knowledge" becomes another Heraclitean flux and never becomes grounded. It's a wild goose chase.
And another problem is that, if your account is true, it undermines Darwinian theory (which is a cornerstone of materialism), because "Natural Selection" never leads to adaptation after all. We can never know external reality, so the "adaptation" part becomes superfluous. Our intellectual faculties are there for nothing, because no matter how much non-sense we believe in, we keep flourishing and reproducing. Truth is irrelevant, but that includes the truth of Darwinian theory (and of philosophical materialism as well).
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThe psychological aspects of argument are just as important as the merits of the argument themselves. Especially in mass society.
ReplyDeleteI think people were less likely to be fooled by such things prior to the age of media.
Interesting reports by Stardust and NLR on fallacy and complexity. More interesting than mine. And most others here. Happy to be mostly a bystander. The piranha pond is heating up.
ReplyDelete@Paul D. Van Pelt:
DeleteKeep being a bystander, please.
Your comments are always welcome here PDV Pelt. Please keep posting. Do not be brow beaten by bullies who wish you to remain silent.
DeleteGisin claims free will is a pre-requisite to make arguments. He is clearly mistaken on this point, so I doubt the rest of his arguments will be insightful or useful.
ReplyDeleteArguments are just what deterministic systems do.
"people who affirm a concept of will as completely random or arbitrary."
That is also non-sensical. The will is doing things for reasons. Randomness is effects for no reason.
Using randomness as a supposed basis for free will would be like saying your decisions are based on the outcome of rolling ideal fair dice, completely stochastic. That is not will at all, there are no reasons in randomness.
If you assert that the cosmos progresses always on the Principle of Sufficient Reason, and also that there is an element of randomness in anything at all, then you have contradicted yourself.
Randomness would be effects happening for no reason at all, much less a sufficient reason.
Right. Reality is never exactly precise. It changes. I have noted this in comments on other blogs---have also written more on the matter. Years ago, John Perry, at Stanford had some thoughts on this. He was on the right track, I think. Ken Taylor's untimely death affected everyone who knew and loved him. Nothing more right now. I am waiting for some sponsorship.
ReplyDeletePaul,
DeleteA quick search of yields a few papers available on memory theory as the root of personal identity:
web.stanford.edu/~bobonich/argument%20reconstruction/perry.paper.html
www2.oberlin.edu/faculty/mwallace/Perry.html
commons.marymount.edu/magnificat/analysis-of-perrys-theories-of-personal-identity/
Perry accounts for the continuity of personal identity with memory. We each accumulate memories of a great many things. The accumulation of memories of our own actions, our own feelings, and our own thoughts is how we identify "me".
On this view, "me" is defined or identified or associated with the accumulation of such memories. That seems like a viable contributing mechanism, but not necessarily the only mechanism.
Memory is one of the easy problems for materialism. We have machines that store memories so it is pretty easy to account for human memories as encoded brain states.
Memory is a hard problem for immaterialism, which has no explanation at all as to how the supposed soul could store, retrieve, understand, or make use of memories.
Every problem of mind is a hard problem for immaterialism because there are no theories at all about how the soul does anything at all. There are not even any scientific hypotheses about any aspect of the soul whatsoever.
The soul is mere idle speculation, making every aspect of the soul an unsolvable mystery of wildly speculated unknowns.
Materialism, by contrast, has made great progress in accounting for many aspects of mind, including memory and the continuity of self.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteWe have machines that store memories so it is pretty easy to account for human memories as encoded brain states.
But those lovely machines don't experience themselves as "selves". They don't experience anything at all.
Stardusty, you are exactly what you criticize. You're a kooky priest for materialism.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteMemory is a hard problem for immaterialism
We hylemorphists are not "immaterialists". We believe that we need our material bodies/ brains to achieve our ends.
Maybe you are confusing hylemorphism with idealism? That would only demonstrate your intellectual inability to grasp very basic concepts.
Your account of "memory" keeps being an absurdity. Brain states are continously changing. There's an almost incessant flux of neurochemicals and of action potentials happening inside our brains. Which means that "memory", which is also codified by those same neurochemicals and action potentials, is itself CHANGING incessantly.
In the end, following materialist standards, nothing can ground our memories. But we know we have them, so your materialism fails. Again.
Descent,
Delete"which is also codified by those same neurochemicals and action potentials, is itself CHANGING incessantly.
In the end, following materialist standards, nothing can ground our memories."
Again you show your lack of understanding of dynamics.
We already have a mechanistic example of dynamic memory, you call it RAM. Yes, the internal conditions of the memory are continually changing, yet the memory is retained, which is because there is a refresh process, all deterministic.
"We hylemorphists are not "immaterialists"."
So then, the soul is material, and you are thus a materialist.
Or the soul is not a separate entity at all, just the arrangement of the material body, in which case you are a materialist.
Or the soul is a real but somehow non-material thing unto itself, with its own ontological being, in which case you are an immaterialist.
Memory is one of the easy problems for materialism because it is easy to account for on dynamic material.
Memory is a hard problem for the immaterialist who believes in an immaterial soul because you cannot account for the connection between brain states and the soul at all.
There are no easy problems for believers in the soul because you cannot account for memory, sensory perception, motor activity, will, decision making, consciousness, or qualia.
The non-material soul accounts for nothing at all and is mere gibberish arm waving on all subjects.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteWe already have a mechanistic example of dynamic memory, you call it RAM. Yes, the internal conditions of the memory are continually changing, yet the memory is retained, which is because there is a refresh process, all deterministic.
If you alter the RAM of a computer, the PC doesn't "feel itself" as changed. So it doesn't count as a real memory, because, again, there's "no one there to feel anything" (and that's one of the arguments that your side puts forward to justify abortion). A foetus has "cellular memory" (how to develop into an adult human if allowed), but it has not "self-memory". Same for the computer. There's "nobody at home". It's just a bad analogy.
Or the soul is not a separate entity at all, just the arrangement of the material body, in which case you are a materialist.
No, because if you eliminate the "soul" (form), which is the principle of specificity, then the result is that now matter "organizes itself". For matter to "organize itself", it means that "matter" knew itself before coming into existence, which is an untenable contradiction.
And that's where you smuggle your "Natural Selection" to do the job, but "Natural Selection" has not causal powers, because it's not a substance (but a process). So you NEED the form. It's UN-NEGOTIABLE. That's why it was defined by Aristotle and Aquinas as a co-principle. Two sides of the same coin. If you eliminate one of them, then you no longer have a normal coin, but a mutilated one. And you can't play heads or tails with it.
Memory is one of the easy problems for materialism because it is easy to account for on dynamic material.
False, as proved above.
(Cont...)
@StardustyPsyche:
Delete(Cont...)
Memory is a hard problem for the immaterialist who believes in an immaterial soul because you cannot account for the connection between brain states and the soul at all.
How does the sphericity of a ball "connect" to the ball itself?
There are no easy problems for believers in the soul because you cannot account for memory, sensory perception, motor activity, will, decision making, consciousness, or qualia.
You can't account for the person, the unitary self who is the substrate of: memory, sensory perception, motor activity, will, decision making, consciousness or qualia. Your side puts the cart before the horse. Our side puts the horse before the cart.
The non-material soul accounts for nothing at all and is mere gibberish arm waving on all subjects.
Says the side which appeals to "future science" and to the "magic of Natural Selection".
"If you alter the RAM of a computer, the PC doesn't "feel itself" as changed. So it doesn't count as a real memory,"
DeleteNon-sequitur.
You are confusing the data with the computation. The memory is real, how that memory is processed is another matter.
"So you NEED the form. It's UN-NEGOTIABLE."
Material has properties. That is not Aristotelian anymore than saying there is a sun makes you a follower of Ra.
If the soul is just properties of material then you are a materialist.
If the soul has its own ontological being that can separate from material then you are an immaterialist.
"How does the sphericity of a ball "connect" to the ball itself?"
There is no such thing as an ontologically existent sphere, so your question is gibberish.
"You can't account for the person,"
Wrong, the person is a dynamic collection of material.
"the unitary self who is the substrate of: memory, sensory perception, motor activity,"
Those are all the easy problems on materialism and impossibly hard problems on the immaterial soul.
Those aspects of human beings are exhibited by primitive life forms with tiny brains that are clearly acting robotically. They are also exhibited by human constructed robots.
That is a list of easy problems on materialism, but you have no explanation at all of how the soul accomplishes anything at all.
"Your side puts the cart before the horse. Our side puts the horse before the cart."
Horses can push too. You lack conceptual skills and understanding of how material progresses.
You clearly know less than nothing about causation, so you make up nonsense about horses not being able to push.
""magic of Natural Selection""
How old do you suppose the Earth is? Just wondering. You sound like an evolution denying kook.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteNon-sequitur.
But everything regarding computers (including the RAM) has been designed by intelligent humans, who have programmed certain "stability" behind the "aleatority", or else both computers and programs would become useless.
Your "programmer-goddess" Natural Selection hasn't got any clue about anything at all, so even if your comparison were acceptable (which is highly objectionable), that would only lead to the same outcome as always: our rational faculties become under suspicion, because there isn't any quality control after all. Your "selective pressures" are a joke, because "Natural Selection" does not select for "true beliefs" (Plantinga dixit and you have acknowledged it in another post below). Our brains and memories would become equally useless as a computer programmed by a duck. And that would mean that we can't know the truth neither of Darwinian evolution nor of your extravagant materialism--> Skepticism.
The "magic of Natural Selection" is not going to save your side. Because it's a crappy programmer. We are not, and that's why our computers work.
(Cont...)
@StardustyPsyche:
Delete(Cont...)
If the soul is just properties of material then you are a materialist.
But the soul is not properties. It's from where the properties flow. Big difference. It's the principle of organization, not the organization in itself.
There is no such thing as an ontologically existent sphere.
Exactly. But the ball exhibits both "sphericity" and "ballness" (to a human mind at least, not to other animals that can't conceptualize the difference). That's because we can abstract them, both are co-joined in the ball, but they can't be physically cut/ disassembled.
Same with body and soul. They are both real and both co-exist, but they can't be "disassembled", except by a mind capable of abstraction.
Wrong, the person is a dynamic collection of material.
If according to you the brain can "adjust and adapt" to all the changes it undergoes (because they are "minor") --> that means that the brain has knowledge of itself previous to any experience at all. That's an absurdity. The brain "knows" all its action potentials before they have happened. Ridiculous and un-believable.
Those are all the easy problems on materialism and impossibly hard problems on the immaterial soul.
Argumentum by assertion, again. You have not proved neither of the propositions. You just assert, and assert, and assert, like the priest of materialism that you are.
You clearly know less than nothing about causation, so you make up nonsense about horses not being able to push.
Wow, you're butthurt, Stardusty. A person that puts a horse behind a cart to push it is certainly a very stupid one, because the horse will end up exhausted and there will be very little progress. Like one of the most stupid ideas ever. Are you suggesting that materialists are not very bright? With that I would agree.
How old do you suppose the Earth is?
The age of the Earth is irrelevant, because "time" has not causal powers. "Time" is an expression of the changeability of things (actualization of potentials). The powers reside in the substances, NOT in time (and neither in processes, like your "Natural Selection").
Natural Selection --> acausal. It's just a human abstraction.
Stardusty, now it's time for you to do your homework.
DeleteWhat's the ontological status of "Natural Selection"?
I have just opened a cold can of beer. This is going to be... funny.
(You are allowed to ask Dawkins for help, although he isn't going to be of any assistance, of course. The guy who "debunked" Aquinas, hahahaha.)
WCB
DeleteDarwin had quite many correspondances with animal breeders. From them, he learned that variations in a population naturally occured. Clue 1. Breeders kept and bred desirable individuals, and culled undesirable individuals. A hen that laid few eggs became dinner. Very productive hens were bred to get more such hens. Darwin later realized individuals that had characteristics that gave it an edge for survival, survived and if it left progeny with advantagous characteristics, these would outbreed lesser strains.
Descent with modification.
The final clue was Charles Lyell. An early geologist Darwind studied on the Beagle. Lyell demonstrated the Earth was very old, not as per Bible, 6,000 years old. Evolution by natural selection needs time, long periods of time. The final clue.
And then there is sexual selections. Evoloution's ontological status? It is obvious, and true and demonstratably so, looking at the long fossil record.
How old are you? There have been many books tracing Darwin's discovery of how evolution works. Perhaps you should read some.
WCB
@WCB:
DeleteNone of what you wrote has solved the question. Evolution and Natural Selection are different terms.
Now I have to do both yours and Stardusty's homework.
Is "Natural Selection" a substance, an accident, a process?
If it's a process, it can't "select" anything at all, because processes are results, expressions of the causal powers that inhere in primary substances. (Primary substances are what have real, independent existence in rerum natura).
The process of "vapor" hasn't got causal powers per se, because "vapor" is not an independent substance. The causal powers are those that inhere in water molecules, that can change their state when they reach 100 °C. "Vapor" hasn't got ontological existence by itself, it's an expression of the passive powers (dispositions) that the substance water actualices under certain circumstances (in our example, by an increase in heat). "Vapor" is ontologically dependent on water.
"Natural Selection" is ontologically dependent on the individual living substances that, like water, actualize their potentials under certain conditions. You first need living creatures for "Natural Selection" to have any 'existence' at all.
Which means that there was a first living creature that was not the result of "Natural Selection".
Natural Selection is meant to be a universal law that has to apply to all living creatures, at all times, always. And yet it did not apply to the first living creature that appeared on Earth --> which makes no sense.
There was a living creature on Earth that was not the result of "Natural Selection", that didn't come from another living creature. You need a) abiogenesis, of which there's no empirical evidence and which b) is metaphysically suspicious, because transeunt causation (efficient) can't explain immanent causation. Immanent causation is not a subcategory of transeunt causation, it's in a different category altogether.
Your side is metaphysically inept (with all due respect). That's why old geezers like Dawkins spew nonsense about genes being "selfish". Your side can't categorize Nature properly and, therefore, can't explain reality.
You need to read more Feser and Oderberg and less Darwin and Dawkins.
*(That's why Stardusty remains mute, because he can't answer my question about the ontological status of NS. You attempt to, but fail).
"Natural Selection" is not an ontologically independent substance in rerum natura. And since it's not a real, independent entity, it can't "select" anything at all. Darwin, as Peter A. Redpath has stated, was a "sloppy thinker".
"Natural Selection is meant to be a universal law that has to apply to all living creatures, at all times, always. And yet it did not apply to the first living creature that appeared on Earth --> which makes no sense."
Delete1. Natural selection is part of the theory of evolution, which explains the diversity of life, not the existence of the first living thing. That is a different subject called abiogenesis.
2. Natural selection is a process, not a law.
3. The first living "creature" would have been a single self-replicating molecule, not anything which would be recognised as a "creature" as such.
Frankly, trying to pick holes in evolution, a theory which was accepted by the scientific community over 150 years ago and subject to intense scrutiny ever since makes you look about as credible as a flat earther. Try reading some different books.
Uncommon Descent:
DeleteNatural Selection is meant to be a universal law that has to apply to all living creatures, at all times, always. And yet it did not apply to the first living creature that appeared on Earth --> which makes no sense.
Anonymus:
1. Natural selection is part of the theory of evolution, which explains the diversity of life, not the existence of the first living thing. That is a different subject called abiogenesis.
Yes. I know the argument. But NS only applies to living creatures.
And for NS to 'select living creatures', there needs to have been a clear-cut division between the moments in which the postulated chemicals were:
a) not alive
b) and they were alive
But if the materialist account were true, it's impossible for us to discern the exact moment in which the transition happened.
We don't have epistemic access to the moment in which 'non-alive- chemicals' jumped the bridge and became 'alive' ones.
All we have is speculation, which makes the empiricist-materialist account untenable. According to them, we can know that life came from non-life even when it's impossible for us to have had experienced such an event with our senses, being something that happened billions and billions of years ago.
Which refutes the materialist account of the Origin of Life. Because for materialism only what enters the mind through the senses constitutes veridic information.
And yet, the OOL couldn't have been, even in principle, something capable of being experienced through our senses (due to the enormous time gap).
Materialism has been defeated by its own premises (not Darwinism per se, which is a scientific theory compatible with A-T).
THE BEEF IS NOT WITH DARWIN, IT'S WITH MATERIALISM WHEN COUPLED WITH DARWINISM.
@Anonymous:
Delete2. Natural selection is a process, not a law.
But it's 'something' that applies to all living creatures, making it a 'Law of Life' (if you are alive, you have to undergo 'NS'). At least on Earth . So it would be a process-law.
3. The first living "creature" would have been a single self-replicating molecule, not anything which would be recognised as a "creature" as such.
'Recognized' by whom? None of us were there. And you are contradicting yourself. It would have had to be per force, a living 'creature', or else NS could't have begun to 'select' upon it. A 'strange kind' of living creature maybe, but a creature nonetheless.
Frankly, trying to pick holes in evolution, a theory which was accepted by the scientific community over 150 years ago and subject to intense scrutiny ever since makes you look about as credible as a flat earther. Try reading some different books.
I'm not picking holes in 'Evolution'. I'm picking holes in the materialist account of it, which is very easy to do with the proper metaphysics (A-T).
Evolution stands. Philosophical materialism fails.
And please don't tell me scientific theories can't be overturned. That would convert science into dogma, which is very dangerous.
@StardustyPsyche:
ReplyDeleteArguments are just what deterministic systems do.
How can "deterministic systems" discriminate between "true" and "false" arguments?
"Arguments are just what deterministic systems do."
ReplyDeleteNice example of the subject of the OP.
I reply here to the request that I keep being a bystander. If Dr. Feser chooses to censor or censure me for my comments, that is his right. I read comments here that I find absurd, along with those that are bright. Whether I am always polite and respectful, is, a matter of taste.
ReplyDeleteMy opinions are a matter of consideration and choice. Have a nice day.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteOP
"the rhetorical subversion of common sense"
Common sense tells us that geostationary geocentrism is the case. You can prove it yourself.
Just go outside, sit on a big rock. You are not moving, obviously, it is common sense. The Sun moves around you, obviously, it is common sense. The stars all move around you, obviously, it is common sense.
Then along came some subversives who had the audacity to subvert common sense, to say the opposite of common sense is actually the truth.
Common sense deserves to be subverted rhetorically when common sense is wrong.
Many of our greatest thinkers are those who had the insight to rhetorically subvert common sense.
Descent,
ReplyDelete"How can "deterministic systems" discriminate between "true" and "false" arguments?"
You have apparently never programmed a computer, say in C++, Python, Basic, or whatever language.
If X=true do Y else do Z
Hopefully you know that computers are mechanistic, material, deterministic systems.
Doesn't the epistemic status of commonsense appeals need unpacking? Many people thought that in relation to the other heavenly bodies, the sun revolves around the earth. When challenged, one of them might reply, well it's just common sense - I mean, look at it!
ReplyDeleteI agree that the epistemic status of common sense appeals may need unpacking. I suggest that it is easy to do an initial layer of that unpacking, and there is no worry as to whether there IS a base level of epistemic value in commonsense, when rightly corralled.
DeleteI would offer the simple epistemic stance that a statement that readily comports with common sense does not need as much substantiation in support (for initial acceptance as, say, a position ranging from hypothesis, opinion, or theory), as a statement that is readily grasped as incompatible with common sense. This does not allow one to accept a statement compatible with common sense as proven fact without the kind of support appropriate to proven fact. But we live in a world where most of the theses we act upon are accepted (as hypothesis, opinion, theory, etc) without being proven.
It probably takes some stiff work to identify the correct meaning for "common sense" that fits this bill. For example: the statement (1) "there is change" is a lot more plausible as a thesis of common sense than the statement (2) "the mind is simply the brain in conscious operation." I don't mean by that claim that (1) is true and (2) is false, not at all. Whether (2) is true or false, it cannot be apprehended AS a statement to accept merely on the basis of what all people observe and experience. It requires (vast) involvement of additional considerations than what is common to all. Similarly, we would not propose as "common sense" the following statement: (3) "beyond any given prime number there is some higher prime number". It is true, but hardly a truth that is accepted merely on account of common experience.
Because a thesis like (4) "the sun moves around the Earth" can be unpacked into separate theses that are, separately, not all equally part of common sense, arguably (4) is not really part of common sense. For example: (5) on sunny days, the sun's orientation against the sky undergoes a gradual modification. (6) At night, we can't see where the sun goes. (7) It is not obvious to the senses how the sun manages to get from its sunset location to its sunrise location - if it is even the same sun at all. I would argue that many so-called commonsense claims aren't really common sense. The thesis that the sun somehow moves around the Earth from its last seen sunset location to arrive at its observed sunrise location is a theory about it, not something universally observed.
@Tony: I thought that geocentrism was for "the plain man" a commonsense claim. You say it wasn't. So it's contentious, which claims are commonsense claims and which ones are not. There have been cultures that entertained as commonsense claims the claims that there are more than two sexes, while many commentators on here say that it's common sense to hold that there are two and only two sexes. No end to disputing claims!
DeleteTony,
Delete" I would argue that many so-called commonsense claims aren't really common sense."
I think what you are calling "common sense" others would call an axiom or a basic self evident truth.
It might be common sense that if a deal seems too good to be true it probably is not true.
Common sense typically concerns complex situations where we could easily be fooled but we perhaps should know better. Common sense might also mean to take our sensory perceptions at face value as opposed to making up complex fanciful alternatives.
I think you may be attempting to limit the usage of "common sense" to assertions that have already been decomposed to an isolated or basic breadth to the point of having no further proof available, so typically we call such assertions a postulate, or axiom, or self evident basic truth.
A notion for ficino on *common sense*: I do not know the unpacking metaphor. What I believe is, common sense is both inadequate and corruptible. It is easy enough, but based more things we do not know than on those we do, or perhaps more on things we are TOLD we should know.? This is not a perfect world (ding!) My better sense of human consciousness says we are capable of uncommon sense. If we don't use that, we are short-circulating our gift( Edelman's term, not mine).
DeleteThere have been cultures that entertained as commonsense claims the claims that there are more than two sexes,
DeleteReally? I had not heard of such cultures. Can you identify them?
@Tony: various Native American peoples acknowledged three or four. https://www.britannica.com/topic/berdache
DeleteA friend born in India has told me about the hijra, a sexual category neither male nor female as we define them. The same encyclopedia talks about cultures that recognize more than two sexes:
https://www.britannica.com/list/6-cultures-that-recognize-more-than-two-genders#:~:text=Hindu%20society%20features%20the%20gender,community%20also%20includes%20intersex%20people.
A while ago there was some discussion of whether women hunted in hunter-gatherer societies. Some recent articles in the press summarize research that seems to indicate that many hunter-gatherer groups had female as well as male hunters. It might seem common sense that men would hunt and women would gather and stay close to camp to take care of children, but that seems often not to have been the case. That men hunted and women didn't, in general, might count as a commonsense notion that has not proved true.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/01/science/anthropology-women-hunting.html
"A friend born in India has told me about the hijra, a sexual category neither male nor female as we define them."
DeleteOy. While I was not born in India, I nonetheless have the good fortune of being able to use an internet search engine, and it appears that contrary to what your native Indian friend claims, 'hijra' are, in terms of the sexual categories of male and female as we define them, in fact -- with rare exceptions --male. Of course, they're an odd kind (gender) of male, insofar as they adopt an odd lifestyle, just as eunuchs are an odd kind (gender) of male, insofar as they have been castrated, and Catholic priests are an odd kind (gender) of male, insofar as they have vowed themselves to celibacy, and autistic people are an odd kind (gender) of people, insofar they have severe limitations in the ability to directly intuit and enter into the emotional lives of those around them, etc., etc. But as to the original claim about there being more than two sexes (i.e., more than two kinds (genders) under the category of sex): No.
@ficino4ml:
DeleteShouldn't you be accused of "bigotry" for associating certain physical characteristics to "womanhood" and "manhood"? There are certain sectors of the population that would even point at such a classification as "un-scientific" (there have been published articles against "biological essentialism").
So, ficino, you give me a Britannica entry that talks about native American cultural practices with cultural roles having some fluidity, and multiple gender identities. As the woke now tell us, neither cultural roles nor gender identity are the same thing as sex. The article also notes some individuals being "intersex", but so far as I know, there is no biological basis for considering them anything other than unsuccessfully expressed males or females: they cannot reproduce both as males and females, for example. They have no successful biological function that other sexes don't have. None of these points to any new reproductive function than the standard ones of males or females, so I have to wonder why you suggest they are considered to represent different sexes.
DeleteI originally asked about the epistemic status of commonsense appeals. I offered some examples of what sounded to me like commonsense appeals, or claims based on what a speaker might regard as "common sense." It seemed to me that some communities of speakers would regard claims like "the sun revolves around the earth" as commonsensical. I offered some other claims that some communities, e.g. the Lakota, would regard as what we call commonsensical. But these claims are regarded by most or many others in "our" world as false claims.
DeleteWhat's the point? The point is to get at the question, is the qualifier "commonsense" factive, like "known" or the like? Is the following true: if a claim is a commonsense claim, it is true? [this conditional can be standardized more formally]
But surely, the ground of the claim's truth is not the fact that it is made with an appeal to common sense, unless we want to establish common sense as veridical. And that's the question I was trying to get at with the examples. It doesn't help answer THAT question to argue that a given example is false because of what we know from science or whatever.
"As the woke now tell us, neither cultural roles nor gender identity are the same thing as sex."
DeleteOr rather: "As common sense tells us..."
The woke idea is more nuanced, something like, if a psychologically troubled man, say, wants to adopt 'woman' as their gender identity, then the rest of us have no right to question that adoption. Anyone who does question it will be assigned the moral identity of 'hateful bigot,' and if those so-identified wish to identify (self-identify) as something other than 'hateful bigot,' they have no right to do so -- because after all, when it comes to the right to arbitrary self-identification, we have to draw the line somewhere!
"It doesn't help answer THAT question to argue that a given example is false because of what we know from science or whatever."
DeleteOy. We don't know that the Lakota claims are false "from science or whatever." We know they are true but that they have nothing to do with what you allege, namely that they call into question our commonsense understanding of sex. They don't (as Tony pointed out).
To answer a couple of ficino's questions:
"Doesn't the epistemic status of commonsense appeals need unpacking?"
Yes. A rather bright fellow by the name of Edward Feser actually recently wrote a blog post (scroll up) about this. You should read it.
"Is the following true: if a claim is a commonsense claim, it is true?"
No. Indeed, anyone with the least bit of common sense knows the answer to this question is, no. If you want to unpack that a little more, again you could worse than reading the recent blog post by the estimable Edward Feser.
"Common sense" does not mean any of the following: 1) true, 2) axiomatic, 3) self-evident, 4) universally observed, 5) what might seem to be the case. It means in accord with common judgment/opinion (sententia). In order to recognize it, you need to have it (by definition, an analytical truth). In order to have it in a more than ordinary degree, you need to have a better than ordinary grasp of the variety of common judgments/opinions about things (and their relations), and/or a better than ordinary grasp of the nature of judgment/sense/meaning as such (what it is in itself, how it is expressed, what powers which make it possible, what are the manifold processes/causal factors whereby it comes to be, persists, evolves, devolves, bears fruit, turns pathological, passes away). Science, philosophy, etc. just are developments/ elaborations of common sense.
DeleteI offered some other claims that some communities, e.g. the Lakota, would regard as what we call commonsensical.
DeleteLet's try that again. Suppose you had said: "According to the Lakotas, 'hunting is women's work' was commonly held, and might qualify as a "common sense" claim. Is it a common sense claim? If it is a common sense claim, does that represent an epistemic basis for accepting it as true?
By re-phrasing it as "hunting is women's work" rather than representing a claim about work roles, rather than sexual claim, that might have avoided some of the unpleasantness above.
I would point out that even within the context of the Lakota's own experience, they might well have contact with some other tribe in which hunting was not usually or typically assigned to women. In which case, even to them, the claim would seem to be tinged with a cultural flavor, and thus not necessarily of a character to be held as universally or necessarily true.
Let's say that some claims are asserted under the mantle of common sense, but aren't actually so. Being a commonsense claim isn't "factive", as you put it. That's not, however, the same thing as saying "one is obliged to put commonsense claims to the exact same testing, under the exact same burdens of establishment, as are rightly applied to non-commonsense claims, before accepting the claim". That isn't an appropriate epistemic stance to take, for a couple of reasons, especially because we accept all sorts of things below the level of proof because they have been established to a level sufficient for the current purpose. We accept well-grounded scientific theories as our working basis in most of the experimental sciences. We accept the opinions of acknowledged experts in many circumstances, like doctors advising on surgery or chemo treatment. We accept even lesser opinions - on the mere basis as opinion - in lesser situations. In civil trials, we accept something established at the level of "the preponderance of the evidence". Even in criminal trials, we accept a claim of guilt on the basis of "beyond a reasonable doubt", which is most certainly NOT equivalent to a scientific proof, and judges sometimes have to make that difference clear. But within the context of things you choose for your own purposes that affect few others, your OWN individual opinion, which you know perfectly well is merely an opinion that you hold and is not "factive", is sufficient basis for acting: you do, in fact, think it is true, even though the way you hold it recognizes that you might be wrong.
One might say that a claim that has the status of "commonsense" within a (large) group sits as, say, the well-regarded, firm opinion of the group. This means that the claim often (but not always) has an adequate basis for accepting it and acting upon it: especially, acting within the group. Such a basis doesn't make it factive. It does provide a basis for accepting it without the level of evidence required for non-commonsense claims before accepting them.
If our common sense is not useful to understand our surroundings, how did our ancestors make it through the harsh conditions in which they found themselves? Our ancestors didn't need to know about any 'scientific' image at all, about quarks and neurochemicals and galaxies. Common sense was the only tool they had at hand and it served them well. The proof is that we are now here.
DeleteCommon sense flows from our cognitive faculties, which have been modelled by Natural Selection. If Natural Selection can't select its creatures to be fit and well adapted, then it's of no use in Darwinian theory. And then Darwinian theory is proved false.
In the end, Stove's discussion of Darwinian theory shows that, when it comes to the species H. sapiens, Darwinism "is a mere festering mass of errors." It can tell you "lots of truths about plants, flies, fish, etc., and interesting truths, too.... [But] if it is human life that you would most like to know about and to understand, then a good library can be begun by leaving out Darwinism, from 1859 to the present hour.
- David Stove, Darwinian Fairytales.
H. sapiens sapiens is the "special species" (and materialists can keep being butthurt, because neither their Darwinism nor their materialism can offer an exhaustive explanation of what we are). All their fantasies notwithstanding.
And you don't need to be a professional philosopher to realize it. Common sense is enough.
"Common sense" does not mean any of the following: 1) true, 2) axiomatic, 3) self-evident, 4) universally observed, 5) what might seem to be the case.
DeleteI like that pretty well. Good comment.
In order to recognize it, you need to have it
First of all, I note that here you are switching from an attribute of propositions or assertions, to an attribute of persons. I would put it slightly differently: in order to recognize it reliably, you have to have a relatively good degree of it - for it comes in degrees. A person with no more than the ordinary degree of common sense should be able to generally recognize those who have much less common sense as being so, and will often make good estimates of those who have middling degrees of common sense, but will sometimes be in error about whether a given person has commonsense in high degree. This is one reason why people vote in scoundrels and fools to elected offices with some frequency.
Science, philosophy, etc. just are developments/ elaborations of common sense.
On the contrary: I would posit that the effort to elaborate the foundations of conclusions and propositions rigorously is precisely what distinguishes these disciplines from common sense. It's not that common sense disagrees with the results of science, philosophy, etc, it's that common sense is called such precisely in respect of the fact that it is held NOT with an attempt to provide rigorous foundations and analysis.
They overlap, however, at the locus of self-evident propositions, which are (rightly) held without rigorous effort by those who have commonsense, and held also by scientists and philosophers - but the latter hold them both as the premises that cannot be proven, and also as propositions that have been considered and probed exhaustively and found to hold up under such reflection. That effort to probe them searching for flaws and limitations takes them (for the scientist or philosopher) beyond the status of common sense, as he has (justified) confidence in them above that which the common man has.
Moreover, it is not exactly infrequent that science or philosophy, when a examining common sense claim, discovers that it is either in error or woefully bounded by limitations not usually recognized: in this respect, science is not "just" common sense "developed or elaborated."
@David McPike: ""Doesn't the epistemic status of commonsense appeals need unpacking?"
DeleteYes. A rather bright fellow by the name of Edward Feser actually recently wrote a blog post (scroll up) about this. You should read it."
Oy. Professor Feser does not unpack the epistemic status of commonsense appeals in the above OP. He only gives examples of commonsense suppositions: that humans have desires, intentions, etc.; that humans are one of two sexes, male or female. You should read the OP as written.
In a comment on Feser's long-ago blog post about Kit Fine, an anonymous commentator wrote this, relying on Maritain:
"Common sense is not the common consent of mankind... Common sense is ordinary knowledge that consists of 1) the data of our senses (e.g., bodies possess length, breadth, and height) 2) self-evident-principles (e.g., the whole is greater than its parts) and 3) consequences immediately deducible from these axioms. In other words, common sense refers to the immediate apprehension of self-evident first principles. It is the natural and primitive judgment of human reason."
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/04/fine-on-metaphysics-and-common-sense.html
You, on the other hand, write this:
""Common sense" does not mean any of the following: 1) true, 2) axiomatic, 3) self-evident, 4) universally observed, 5) what might seem to be the case. It means in accord with common judgment/opinion (sententia)."
So you differ from what that commentator 11 years ago said s/he got from Maritain.
Oy. Perhaps Prof. Feser can settle the matter by defining "common sense." If he has defined it in another writing, it will be useful to have a citation. For Maritain, apparently, "commonsense" is factive. If Feser disagrees with Maritain, that will be useful to know. In that post about Fine, Feser said that common sense can be mistaken about points of detail but not wholesale.
@ficino4ml:
Delete"Common sense is not the common consent of mankind... Common sense is ordinary knowledge that consists of 1) the data of our senses (e.g., bodies possess length, breadth, and height) 2) self-evident-principles (e.g., the whole is greater than its parts) and 3) consequences immediately deducible from these axioms. In other words, common sense refers to the immediate apprehension of self-evident first principles. It is the natural and primitive judgment of human reason."
Maritain was right. Common sense is what made our ancestors survive and thrive. If we can't apprehend our environment properly, we're dead in the water. But according to materialists/ Darwinists, we never really apprehended our environment after all. Our ancestors navigated the world employing the 'manifest' image when what was 'really real' was the 'scientific' one.
Which means that 'apprehending reality' is not relevant to surviving after all ---> Darwin's theory becomes superfluous. For example, the data of our senses makes us perceive that we are whole bodies when what we really are is 'brains' and our arms, legs, torsos, etc are just 'hallucinated' --> but we need our legs and arms and torsos to achieve our ends, so they are real as hell ---> Darwinism + materialism ---> pure ABSURDITY.
We'd better ditch materialism and keep Darwin. For example, coupled with Aristotle and St. Thomas. That sounds right. The problem is not Darwin. The problem is superstitious materialism.
"Oy. Professor Feser does not unpack the epistemic status of commonsense appeals in the above OP."
DeleteFicino, my dear man, let me suggest that 1) you didn't read the OP very carefully, or 2) you have an idiosyncratically narrow (and also unreasonable, untenable) notion of what 'epistemic status' refers to. Accordingly, I suggest 1) that you reread the OP and see if you can't find some discussion of the epistemic status of common sense after all, and/or 2) tell me how you are using the term 'epistemic status' such that you can't find anything in the OP that unpacks the epistemic status of common sense.
As for how I define common sense, as compared to how some commenter from days of yore once did, I suggest while you're rereading the OP you pay attention also to this issue, and I do believe you should be able to recognize that what I said about it is obviously, besides being inherently defensible and reasonable, more in keeping with what Dr. Feser was talking about than what said commenter (or perhaps Maritain) had to say about it. And if you want to object, "but isn't there more than one acceptation of the term 'common sense,'" then certainly I'll grant you, indeed as a matter of common sense, that there is; but if you want to also insist, "but shouldn't there be only one which is the true and right acceptation of the term?" then, no, I'm afraid if you think that, then again you are regrettably lacking in common sense (and in particular, in this case, common sense about common sense).
anonymous@7:14am:
Delete"I would put it slightly differently: in order to recognize it reliably, you have to have a relatively good degree of it - for it comes in degrees."
Quite right, but notice that in the comment to which you are responding here, I explicitly alluded to the fact that it comes in degrees.
As to your "on the contrary," I don't see what is actually contrary in what you wrote, but I'll offer a couple of points:
1) You seem to have a static view of what common sense is, as if it is a universal innate repository of reliable propositions belonging to every human being just in virtue of his nature? You can call something like that 'common sense' if you wish, but that is not (I think) the kind of thing in question here (starting with the OP). The kind of thing in question here is just the baseline of common judgments/meanings/sense that make dialectical arguments possible (as opposed to properly demonstrative or merely contentious arguments). The point is that this baseline is by its nature not static, but dynamic, always relative to the particular context in which any given dialectical argument is being made.
2) Following on that, the same proposition can be adopted on the basis of demonstrative or on the basis of dialectical argument. Certainly a demonstrative argument (scientific, philosophical, etc.) is (as I claimed!) a development/elaboration of common sense, and one that in one sense takes a given claim beyond the level of (mere) common sense; but the demonstrated (say, scientific) proposition itself can then become a commonsense proposition insofar as it enters into the store of commonly acknowledged judgments of an epistemic community, and does so quite apart from any adversion to, or need to advert to, the demonstrative grounds that are available for holding it.
3) Minor point on word usage: 'common sense' is a substantive; 'commonsense'/'commonsensical' are modifiers (if I'm not mistaken!).
@Tony, thanks for further explicating your views on common sense. I think we are close to being in agreement, perhaps also so w/ regard to things that Prof. Feser has written about it (I have no read all he may have written about common sense!).
DeleteJust a note: I do not know that the Lakota were one of those communities that held that hunting is women's work as well as men's work. But whether they were so or not doesn't matter for what you wrote.
"On the contrary: I would posit that the effort to elaborate the foundations of conclusions and propositions rigorously is precisely what distinguishes these disciplines from common sense. It's not that common sense disagrees with the results of science, philosophy, etc, it's that common sense is called such precisely in respect of the fact that it is held NOT with an attempt to provide rigorous foundations and analysis."
DeleteOn this I would add that if some 'epistemic community' calls itself 'scientific,' it does not follow that its claims are actually epistemically superior to common sense (see the OP! -- and consider the whole vexed history of philosophy and science into the modern and post-modern eras). Common sense remains fundamental to scientific communities (always) and scientific communities also (always) remain human communities, susceptible to pathological forms of common sense (group think, "science is never settled," "follow the science!", "if it ain't science it's nonsense," "I don't believe in God, I believe in science," etc.).
Thank you, Stardust. I have been away from the Stanford blog, mostly, since Professor Taylor died. Have heard little of John Perry since then and only referred to him recently in a comment on a different blog about his early thoughts on *levels* of reality,
ReplyDeletewhich seemed to relate to my own ideas about contextual reality, still in formulative stages. Thanks for your kind acknowledgement. Soyez sage, tout les temps.
@StardustyPsyche:
ReplyDeleteHopefully you know that computers are mechanistic, material, deterministic systems.
We have programmed computers. Who/ what has "programmed" us? Oh, wait, I am having an epiphany, it was "Evolution", of course. But "Evolution" is a process which knows nothing at all, so again, our cognitive faculties are under suspicion. If "Evolution" doesn't know "truth", why should we, who are its products?
From Stove's Darwinian Fairytales prologue (by Roger Kimball), two illuminating passages.
ReplyDeleteThe first, regarding the tribalistic and religious behavior of the "Darwinians" (that can be also extended to the "Wokes", those "paradigms of reason"):
Since then I have noted with amusement how sensitive to criticism the Darwinian faithful are. Any hint of a shadow of dissent and they rush for the garlic, the wooden stake, and a signed copy of "On the Origin of Species".
True.
The second, regarding what these people understand for "scientific (ahem) explanations" (in this case for altruism):
... that "no one is prepared to sacrifice his life for any single person, but ... everyone will sacrifice it for more than two brothers, or four half-brothers, or eight first cousins"
According to materialists, who are literally obsessed with the quantifiable aspect of nature, altruism is nothing but a mathematical formula. The problem is that this crap is taught at schools and Universities. Along with crappy pseudo-scientific books like Dawkin's The Selfish Gene.
"True."ly nonsense. I suppose that kind of hyperbole has cache with a certain sort.
Delete"According to materialists, who are literally obsessed with the quantifiable aspect of nature, altruism is nothing but a mathematical formula."
You don't read much, do you?
Altruism is a trait of individuals in a social species. Ants exhibit altruism. In a social species some sorts of altruistic behavior confer an overall reproductive advantage, and are thus selected for.
"The problem is that this crap is taught at schools and Universities."
I am finding it increasingly difficult to imagine you attended such.
"Along with crappy pseudo-scientific books like Dawkin's The Selfish Gene."
Do you ever make specific arguments or just spew invective?
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteYou don't read much, do you?
Oh pastor, shut up. That's Hamilton's rule of altruism, which is part of what is taught at Biology classes. Of which you have attended none.
Do you ever make specific arguments or just spew invective?
Dawkins is a mumbling fool. He isn't even a "scientist" proper, just a writer of pop-science best- sellers that the gullible masses swallow as if they were mana . Sorry if I have hurt your hero, but a good description is not an insult. His stupid thought experiment about monkeys writing Shakespeare with typewriters is a perfect example of his intellectual mendacity.
Correction: Hamilton's rule of inclusive fitness.
Delete
DeleteDawkins is a mumbling fool. He isn't even a "scientist" proper, just a writer of pop-science best- sellers that the gullible masses swallow as if they were mana ...'
There are any number of roughly parallel or analogous "incoherencies" or absurdities in which the supposedly progressive minded indulge themselves, and which spring from the discordance between their announced Weltanschauungen, and their actual behaviors.
In fact the proper description for what they are enjoying might be 'self-granted indulgences and dispensations'; rather than simply remarking that they "indulge".
These blatant and preposterous inconsistencies then, which render them susceptible to accusations of hypocrisy and deceptive dealing are probably why they have increasingly abandoned any attempts whatsoever to anchor their behaviors in universal principles which can be metaphysically grounded; and why they have adopted a shrugging social pragmatism which is temporarily held together by the glue of purportedly shared emotions regarding appetites, but which floats on an ultimate sea of profound nihilism. https://youtu.be/gGvrh0ZgCp8?t=267
What grounds for example, have the Churchlands, with their eliminative materialism version of a philosophical anthropology, to stake a claim to be treated by others as real people, if we grant that they are fundamentally correct?
What is it that grounds the claim of some ephemeral congeries of appetite encased in a skin bag, to be considered as a "person" in the sense that western civilization conceived of personhood and then respected its immunities and privileges? Why should any rational man care if such a deconstructed new thing suffers? And does not suffering itself [or its announcement] imply some objectively true correlate to an independent fact which acts to refute the basic anti-teleological assumptions which the progressive nihilist otherwise advances?
What claim, to go further, has a rabid anti-teleologist to claim that its "rights" are more than letters on paper, and that laws have any meaning or intention related to them which an adversary is morally bound to respect at all?
What grounds would such a creature even have to assert that it is ill, rather than healthy and should be offered treatment? If there is no way things "should be" then there is no illness or health and it has no reason to complain; or, at least none to be offered consideration on the basis of principle, when it does.
Why should we care then, whether some proportion of the transient material effects we used to call persons or souls, and which we presently happen to find uncongenial, or inconvenient to our purposes, simply melt away? Are there not plenty more where they came from if we decide they are useful in some regard?
So yeah I guess we can live without metaphysical conceptions, perhaps very satisfyingly - at least those of us who are swift, strong, happily formed and not too inhibited when it comes to taking what one wants.
Nonetheless - as I have mentioned many times before - even a legal positivist like Herbert Hart admitted that the concept of the law itself makes no sense, unless objective ends oriented aims extending beyond the immediate command, are granted as real.
Otherwise it is just bleating vortices squealing in the dark, before disappearing for good.
And if someone admits to being just that, well, then ... "shrug" right back at ya.
"What grounds for example, have the Churchlands, with their eliminative materialism version of a philosophical anthropology, to stake a claim to be treated by others as real people, if we grant that they are fundamentally correct?"
DeleteBecause that what real people are, collections of quarks and electrons.
My car is a real car even though I have come to learn that it is a collection of quarks and electrons, My car really is a car because cars really are collections of quarks and electrons.
What is supposed to be the problem?
Particles in motion really think because thinking really is particles in motion. Yes, on eliminative materialism I really think, I really am a person, I really am me, because thinking really is quarks an electrons in motion, a person really is quarks and electrons in motion, "me" really is quarks and electrons in motion.
You manifestly suffer from permanent fallacy of composition syndrome. Every time you look at a tree you lose sight of the forest. Somehow, to you, there cannot "really" be a forest because there are only trees.
For some reason you just do not grasp that a forest really is a very great many trees.
@Stardusty:
DeleteStardusty, don't forget your homework. Ontological status of NS. Or you won't get your grade.
Substance, accident, aggregate, process*, God spirit?
*No causal powers, therefore --> no selection of anything.
My beer is getting hot.
@Stardusty:
DeleteStardusty, why does the brain need to look at the external world to gain knowledge about "itself". Why does the brain need to dissect another brains and use technology like brain scans to understand "itself" instead of doing it by introspection?
The knowledge of the brain should be internal, those kooky "parallel network processes" having all they need to know at hand, inside the kooky skull.
And please, why don't I see a brain when I look in the mirror, if that's exactly what I "am"? How can we be "well adapted" to the external environment if we can't even perceive ourselves adequately?
Stardusty,
DeleteYou should have read a little further and then your confusion would have cleared up.
I am not arguing that because the Churchlands are composed of small light particles that they are small and light.
I am suggesting, and go on with further examples to illustrate, the absurdity of granting the Churchland's premise that mental states concerning 'beliefs, desires, or even pain', (to paraphrase a quick internet search which you can do yourself) do not exist, and then treating the object or entity in question as if it does possess those qualifying attributes.
You seem however to instead be imagining I was referring to what some persons call reductive materialism.
You go on to say say, "My car is a real car even though I have come to learn that it is a collection of quarks and electrons ......"
And so it would be: unless it lacked a motor and drive train. Then it could not do what it was supposed to be able to do, and would not be what you imagined you were paying for. Or if in parallel, the ostensible human under discussion lacked a respect worthy "self , and was in fact an automaton which you had been courteously according graces and forbearances and favors which it was incapable of recognizing or even benefiting from. Like painting a face on a stone in the desert, and offering it a drink from one's water bottle.
And if we push eliminative materialism ( see Stanford edu elinintative materialism 3.3) to its logical conclusion concerning the elimination of beliefs concerning the self and identity, the whole structure and basis justifying the respect which some presumptively accord others, evaporates.
Now this might be fine with me. Why bother forbearing for the sake or benefit of something that does not exist?
There is nothing of the kind we imagined really there there in that case. The pain is not real. Its just wind whistling through the louvers.
But all this would have been cleared up for you if you had just read a little further and controlled your impulse to start flinging around logical terms you don't actually grasp and which were not relevant to the case anyway.
DNW
Delete"the absurdity of granting the Churchland's premise that mental states concerning 'beliefs, desires, or even pain', (to paraphrase a quick internet search which you can do yourself) do not exist,"
That depends on the definition or sense of "exist" in this context.
A belief does not exist in the sense that a belief is not an ontologically simple object, static in its ontological realization in the cosmos. Rather, a belief is a brain process, a dynamic process of myriad bits of matter in motion.
"if in parallel, the ostensible human under discussion lacked a respect worthy "self "
I respect my "self" for being a dynamic ever changing collection of bits of material. If you do not respect my "self", up to you.
"And if we push eliminative materialism ( see Stanford edu elinintative materialism 3.3) to its logical conclusion concerning the elimination of beliefs concerning the self and identity, the whole structure and basis justifying the respect which some presumptively accord others, evaporates."
Nope, it becomes all the more wonderful for me. that is what respect is, a brain process, bits of material in motion. Respect is real as bits of material in motion because that is what respect is, bits of material in motion. Sounds tautological, doesn't it? Indeed, you are in the position of denying facts that are so obvious they are tautologically true, that is, so true that it seems trivial to even point out that they are true, yet you claim such to be false, thus your claim is preposterous.
"Why bother forbearing for the sake or benefit of something that does not exist?"
It is you how is manifestly in need of learning about existential philosophy and what the word "exist" means.
Arguments against eliminative materialism typically depend on equivocation and misunderstanding of the word "exist".
"The pain is not real. Its just wind whistling through the louvers."
Pain is not a real ontological object. Pain has no independent ontological realization in the cosmos. That is the sense in which pain does not exist.
The Churchlands never denied that we experience pain. To suggest that they did is either dishonest or ignorant.
"But all this would have been cleared up for you if you had just read a little further"
Oh, by all means, please do reference your claim that eliminative materialism denies that you experience the experiences you experience yourself experiencing.
Your strawman of eliminative materialism sounds absurd, but that is why you express your strawman, to knock it down.
Indeed your analysis has the depth of "to paraphrase a quick internet search ". There is your absurdity.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteMy car is a real car
But your "Natural Selection" is not a real "selector".
One has physical existence, the other doesn't.
And neither do have physical existence the "Laws of Physics". And if you try to equate the "Laws of Physics" to what "matter does", then you fail. Because you can't explain why matter behaves in those ways and not in others. Laws need lawgivers (that's what your hyper-quoted Newton hero said). --> God.
"It is you how is manifestly in need of learning about existential philosophy and what the word "exist" means."
DeleteYou silly poseur. I completed sufficient coursework in Medieval Philosophy, Lebenswelt philosophy, Phenomenology - Husserl's and otherwise, Philosophical Anthropology, and plain old existentialism, to know that you are blowing smoke out of your capacious cloaca.
Maybe you want to give us all a lesson on Heidegger? Go ahead. I have most of the texts; as do many others here too no doubt.
Go ahead, bigmouth. If you are as wrong about "existence" and the evolution and use of the term from the Middle Ages through Heidegger and Merleau-Ponty, as you were about the fallacy of composition, it ought to be quite entertaining.
"But your "Natural Selection" is not a real "selector".
DeleteOne has physical existence, the other doesn't."
A real process is a process of real material, not a static ontologically independent feature of the cosmos.
Natural selection is a real process.
"Laws need lawgivers (that's what your hyper-quoted Newton hero said). --> God."
"Because you can't explain why matter behaves in those ways and not in others."
Then you fail because you cannot explain why god behaves in those ways, and not others.
May the special pleading begin...
The panel showing the level of Stardusty's butthurt-ness has just... exploded.
Delete@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteA real process is a process of real material, not a static ontologically independent feature of the cosmos.
So true, Stardusty, the-lover-of-logic! Which means that ORGANISMS DON'T NEED ANY EXTERNALLY IMPOSED "NATURAL SELECTION" AT ALL TO DIRECT THEIR DESTINIES ---> THEY HAVE ALL THEY NEED TO THRIVE AND PROGRESS "INSIDE"* THEM ---> Hello "FORM"*.
But as the Saint stated, no potential can actualize itself. Organisms need input from the environment in which they are embedded (those inputs would be the 'efficient' causes).
So 'Natural Selection' is NOT a 'cause' of anything at all. Natural Selection' is a result. Ontologically speaking, it was 'life' first and 'NS' is just subservient to 'life'.
Which means, Stardusty, the-lover-of-logic, that life came to be INDEPENDENTLY OF 'NS'.
But how could 'life' have come to be from 'non-life'? ---> you'll need to insert a good amount of "Nature's Magic" to do the trick ---> because, after all, 'miracles' are allowed in the naturalist paradigm.
And if 'NS' is not relevant to life's origins, why should it be relevant to life's development?
If life can come from 'non-life', then 'resurrection' doesn't sound crazy after all. My 'dead-chemicals' can perfectly become alive again one day, exactly like your 'stupid, inert' molecules were once brought to life by your "Nature goddess".
May a river of tears begin. Poor Stardusty is going to need a canoe.
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteThen you fail because you cannot explain why god behaves in those ways, and not others.
First things first, Stardusty. To explain anything, first I need a brain. To gain knowledge about me having a brain --> I need to "go" to extra-mental reality, so I can dissect corpses and see inside other people's skulls --> for that, I need my senses, which grant me access to extra-mental reality.
But if the materialist account of sensation is true --> I have only access to the internal images of my brain. Now, if I have only access to the internal images of my brain --> then I have to conclude that my senses (including my eyes) reside inside my brain.
And what's even worse, if I keep following the chain of reasoning, I can't even conclude that I have a brain, because that information is one that I acquired via my senses, which grant me access to extra-mental reality --> but now I know that access to extra-mental reality is impossible, because I am a fella who has his eyes inside his brain. If my eyes are inside my brain, then they can't see anything at all --> which means that the information they provided me about me having a brain is not correct. Now I don't have any valid reason to believe that that I have either a) eyes or b) a brain.
So, if I follow your ridiculous materialism, then I end up not having any reason to believe that any of my body parts are real --> and that leads to Descartes and his First Meditations. Cogito, ergo sum.
So, if I follow materialism --> then I have to conclude that materialism is false. Materialism is self-defeating and self-referentially absurd. Q.E.D.
Or R.I.P. "materialism", The Last Superstition.
" If life can come from 'non-life', then 'resurrection' doesn't sound crazy after all. My 'dead-chemicals' can perfectly become alive again one day, exactly like your 'stupid, inert' molecules were once brought to life by your "Nature goddess"."
DeleteI don't quite understand why some phrase such as "environmental filtration" ( or sifting" has not completely replaced the term "natural selection"; unless some are determined to keep sexual selection, or affinity groupings under its umbrella.
The more likely explanation apart from simple inertia, is, in my view, a desire by some silly polemicists to drag along into and thus keep handy, the old Spencerian idea of progressive, ascending, Evolution, by which they hope to prevent the eventual reconceptualization of the term evolution: as merely expressing a kind of value-free tautology. This reduction seems ever more reasonable a framework, once the last vestiges of superstitious, crypto-theological, reverential, Evolutionism-the-new-secular-religion, are swept into the "dustbin of grandly bad ideas".
As has been shown on this blog many times in years gone by, self-proclaimed "progressives" habitually imbue the referent of the term 'evolution' with the kinds of divine and directive attributes which they war against in all other contexts. This divinizing of the upshot of an ultimately random and meaningless filtration process, is hugely comical.
But not to worry, it gets better. "Life" itself is and has been for some time, on the eliminativist chopping, or decomposotion, block.
They cannot tell us what life is but we are assured it is nothing special. Just like human beings are nothing special ... unless the one human being you wish to toss in the trash pit is the human being declaring that human beings are nothing special or unique.
Anyway we don't know what life is but the answer might lie in the formation of crystals.... Or something.
And indeed it might. What then, after life itself has been deconstructed, will the progressive propose to speak in the name, and for the sake, of?
Feelings perhaps. Woah woah feelings. Hallucinated products of a hallucinated subjective reality, but feelings, kind of, sort of, maybe, nonetheless. Or so the noise making thing seems to claim.
"A second factor is the influence of a vice of excess where open-mindedness is concerned. Every philosopher is aware of the dangers of unexamined premises and of foreclosing an investigation too hastily. But it is possible to go to the opposite extreme of attributing intellectual value to what is in reality mere pedantry or nitpicking. This would be an instance of what Aquinas calls the vice of curiosity. By “curiosity” Aquinas doesn’t mean the desire for knowledge as such (which is, of course, of itself good) but rather a desire for knowledge that is disordered in some way. For example, it may stem from an unhealthy motivation like pride..."
ReplyDeleteGuilty as charged, no doubt; but Friar Thomas also pointed out that pride was the most difficult vice to eradicate, not because it motivates us to do what is shameful, but because precisely when we do what is truly good and noble (and even humble), pride is the last resort of the tempter to corrupt the real goodness of God's work in us. Pride, otoh, could be involved also in dismissing contrarian views as nitpicking pedantry. So pride is an ever present danger on both sides, but to note as much leaves untouched the (perhaps pedantic) question itself and the question of its real (vs. merely nitpicking) intellectual value.
"... Quibbling over matters that the average person takes for granted can sometimes reflect, not a genuine desire for deeper understanding, but pleasure in the feeling of superiority over those perceived as less intelligent or learned."
Sure, sometimes. But then at the risk of quibbling, I think there is much more prevalent a risk of unjustly, uncharitably, slothfully dismissing as quibbling what is (or could/should be/become) the desire for a deeper, sounder understanding than that presumed as adequate by the average person. I also don't think that the pleasure of feeling (being) superior in intelligence and knowledge is necessarily a guilty pleasure. "At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, 'I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.'"
...
And a sixth factor, a house swept clean, ready for possession by any number of daemons (spiritual, psychological, or ideological) that chance by.
Write another book, Dr. McPike. Write an Intro to Philosophy based on A/T philosophy.
DeleteWCB
DeleteAristotle? Unmoved Prime Mover? Who withdraws from his creation and contemplates only his own thoughts? The highest sort of existence for the Unmoved Prime mover? 47, orv55 Prime movers. Planets have circular orbits because circular motions are divine motions. Much of Aristotle's philosophy is not philosophy. It is bad theology and nothing more.
WCB
@WCB:
DeleteMuch of Aristotle's philosophy is not philosophy. It is bad theology and nothing more.
On The Origin of Species is permeated with Darwin's theodicy and metaphysical assumptions.
I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.
- Charles Darwin
What's that got to do at all with "science"? Much of Darwin's science is bad theology and personal opinion and nothing more.
You appear to be a fellow who is exceptionally bereft of analytical acumen and most resolutely so, in the manner of the most embarrassingly unselfaware bigot. That said, there may be very little point in asking, but all the same, your oh-so-boldly ham-fisted comment here invites the question: What exactly do you think philosophy is?
DeleteDavid,
Delete"What exactly do you think philosophy is?"
Natural philosophy led to science.
Ancient natural philosophy largely failed because it lacked means of verification. Ancient natural philosophers performed few, if any, experiments, and they formulated few, if any, mathematical models. For the most part they just observed the world and tried to reason based on what they saw.
That methodology can provide some very basic facts, such as the fact that there are lights in the sky, the sunrise and sunset points on the horizon follow predictable patterns, and so forth.
Nearly all of Aristotle's natural philosophy is wrong. Anybody educated in philosophy and science who does not understand that obvious fact is "exceptionally bereft of analytical acumen and most resolutely so, in the manner of the most embarrassingly unselfaware bigot."
@StardustyPsyche:
DeleteAncient natural philosophy largely failed because it lacked means of verification.
Modern materialism has failed because it can't grant us access to extra-mental reality.
Ancient natural philosophers performed few, if any, experiments, and they formulated few, if any, mathematical models.
To make experiments, you first need access to extra-mental reality. Materialism can't grant us access to the world.
Nearly all of Aristotle's natural philosophy is wrong.
We don't care about Ari's empirical science. We care about his metaphysics. Science is always changing. The history of science is littered with failures (like Darwin's theory, which can't explain human nature and is a "mass festering of errors and contradictions" when it tries to explain what we are).
Metaphysics comes first. That's why it received the name of First Philosophy. Anybody educated in philosophy and science knows that materialism is irrational and that its proper place is The Dustbin of History, under the category: "superstition".
Nearly all of Aristotle's natural philosophy is wrong. Anybody educated in philosophy and science who does not understand that obvious fact is "exceptionally bereft of analytical acumen and most resolutely so, in the manner of the most embarrassingly unselfaware bigot."
DeleteOh dear. So that's what I've been missing. Well shit, I guess I just got pwned...
"I guess I just got pwned..."
DeletePossibly, just depends how much of Aristotle's natural philosophy you believe is true.
A fundamental difference between sublunary motion and motion in the heavens.
Speed is proportional to force applied.
When force is no longer applied to a moving object it will slow and stop and it's motion will be lost in every respect.
One-way causation at base.
Material is composed of 4 elements, Earth, water, air, fire.
Geocentrism.
Or, as Aquinas put it, whatever is in motion is put in motion by another.
If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover,
If you cling to such notions then yes you are "exceptionally bereft of analytical acumen and most resolutely so, in the manner of the most embarrassingly unselfaware bigot."
If you cling to such notions then yes you are "exceptionally bereft of analytical acumen and most resolutely so, in the manner of the most embarrassingly unselfaware bigot."
DeleteYa think? How do you suppose I can tell if I'm "clinging" to such notions? (I do despise clinginess.) And how do you suppose I can determine whether such "clinging" indeed implies what you claim it implies?
This is also called "word fetish" where giving the opposing position a name suffices to refute it. It's not much different than when the villainous character named the heroine "Malice" instead of "Alice".
ReplyDeleteTvTropes - Malicious Misnaming
"If "Evolution" doesn't know "truth", why should we, who are its products?"
ReplyDeleteBecause truth is that which comports with reality.
Our knowledge of our immediate environment converges on truth because there is a strong selection pressure to accurately assess our immediate environment.
On other questions there is little or no selection pressure to determine truth so people do in fact believe a great many falsehoods.
You know that, correct? That people do not, in general, know truth?
@StardustyPsyche:
ReplyDeleteOur knowledge of our immediate environment converges on truth because there is a strong selection pressure to accurately assess our immediate environment.
Lol. There's no "knowledge" of any "immediate environment" (extra-mental), because we can only know the internal images of our brains* and it's impossible for us to disengage ourselves from them. The only selective "pressures" would be internal to the brain. And certainly that's not what Darwin was theorizing about.
Materialism --> no contact with extra-mental reality. You still haven't understood it. Maybe one day, Stardusty?
*Hylemorphism allows for direct contact with extra-mental reality though (Aquinas's theory of intentionality).
On other questions there is little or no selection pressure to determine truth so people do in fact believe a great many falsehoods.
But for Stardusty those pressures have obtained, because you can discriminate between truth and falsity. For example, you "know" that materialism is "true" and Theism is "false", although there were "little or no selection pressures" for any of them. But maybe you have received some sort of divine revelation? Shall we bow before you?
" ... Gisin mentions that freewill is not something that is completely random or arbitrary as it is usually made out to be."
ReplyDeleteIt's difficult to imagine what some people have in mind when they use the term "free will".
When it merely means being able to exercise one's will freely, in the sense of making a choice unconstrained directly by others, it looks pretty clear, and seems a satisfactory working definition to probably all but Marxists and philosophers with an agenda.
They, or the Marxists among them, will of course argue, or assert, that the exigencies of life mean that lacking a full smorgasbord of socially provided options, the hapless chooser really has no choice but to choose what is offered and is therefore unfree in any case.
Other, somewhat aligned people, seem to think that in order to have a genuine free will, it entails having a kind of mysterious free floating superior will, free to will what it will will; a will that somehow operates over and above the defining and putatively determining physical contingencies and circumstances in which ordinary volition is immersed and functions. 'The moment there is context, there is no freedom!", should be their slogan.
On the one hand the libertarian will say to the criminal, " Nobody put a gun to your head, you did it of your own free will".
The Marxist species-being or wannabe social insect version of homo sapiens will, on the other, flap its hands, and hyperventilatingly insist that a will could only act freely when it has God-like independence: even, apparently, from any defined self, or context in which selections are present to simultaneously both provide options, and to constrain.
Therefore, they conclude, there is no real free will.
Which does not show that there is no such thing as "free will"; but only that there is just no satisfying some people.
Discussion is approaching uncommon sense here. I rather hoped it might. I will stick around for a bit,if and /or only if, because of the possibility of that reality. I am not certain of what uncommon sense entails. I think it is a strong feature of consciousness. I can't prove that. Don't think anyone else can either. Thanks, Dr.
ReplyDeleteOr consider Richard Dawkins, another eminent* sociobiologist and author of The Selfish Gene, a hugely popular book whose basic message is that "we are . . . robot-vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes." (Yes, he really says this.) Of course, as Stove points out, "genes can no more be selfish than they can be (say) supercilious, or stupid." The popularity of Dawkins's book lies in the powerful appeal that puppet-theories of human behavior always exercise on those who combine cynicism with credulousness; but genetic puppet theories are no more credible than those propounded by Freudians, Marxists, or astrologers.
ReplyDelete- David Stove, Darwinian Fairytales.
See, Stardusty? "Eminent", but not any mention of the word "scientist". I would also add: "eminently stupid".
What metaphysically uneducated Dawkins was trying to do, is to convert genes into substances. But genes are NOT substances. The substance is the human individual, of which the genes are parts. Aquinas: 1, Dawkins: 0.
"Selfish genes" = sudden and violent solecism.
And again, this intellectual filth is taught at Universities as if it were the Gospel. But Universities today have been infected by "progressives" and have become almost useless regarding the education of the youth, who is now routinely indoctrinated and programmed to be ignorant and fanatic. ("Wokes").
I would like to point out here that some of our commenters who are saying "common sense is often wrong and should be argued against!" are missing the point.
ReplyDeleteThe "rhetorical subversion" being discussed here is not the same as arguing against any particular common sense proposition. It is the assertion of something contrary to common sense (or the common use of language) without clear definition or justification. This rhetorical subversion is a form of sneaking hidden premises into one's argument. Nothings wrong with making arguments based on premises that aren't intuitive, what's wrong is pretending that those premises are actually intuitive and unnerving of justification when they truly are.
@Anonymous pointing out: I agree with you on the main point of Prof. Feser's OP. I don't know that some commentators have said that common sense is "often wrong." If there are instances where we can agree that a claim seemed commonsensical and yet turned out to be false, then in light of some folks' move to dub a claim "commonsensical," it remains relevant to try to nail down the epistemic and/or veridical implications, if any, of qualifying a claim as "commonsensical." Prof. Feser brought up the Galileo thing by quoting Searle on it. Do you know what Searle holds about commonsense claims? It's not clear from the quotation whether Searle thought that Bellarmine was making a commonsense claim when, as Searle indicates, B contested claims made by Galileo.
ReplyDeleteWCB
ReplyDelete"These are examples of ideas that are utterly nonsensical, but by using the names over and over such nonsense is easily accepted by the credulous.
The unmoved mover.
Pure act.
Teleological.
Divine simplicity.
Immaterial.
The soul."
-Stardust Psyche
’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
“It seems very pretty,” she said when she had finished it, “but it’s rather hard to understand!” (You see she didn’t like to confess, even to herself, that she couldn’t make it out at all.) “Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas—only I don’t exactly know what they are! "
Alice Through The Looking Glass
A lot of these theological and philosophical claims are what I call Jabberwocky arguments. They have no real meaning, much less evidence for their truth.
They are meant to fill our minds with ideas, but nobody can realy say what they are.
WCB
@WCB:
DeleteAnd yet, those concepts that you find so "funny" are essential conditions to explain the ontological status of "Natural Selection", something that not even Darwin, his first proponent, could clarify. (And you can't even differentiate between 'Evolution' and NS).
So it's the theist who has to do your homework and explain the many pitfalls of your position (you can't either clarify the ontological status of time, you can't explain how synapses "give rise" to the self, you can't explain how "representationalism" makes sense as a theory of knowledge, you can't explain why we can attain scientific and metaphysical truths --> because there were no "selective pressures" for them and they are just *brute facts*).
You only have your fideism and your appeals to "future science", which explain nothing and have zero philosophical value.
1) Humpty Dumpty would beg to differ. (As would Lewis Carroll.)
Delete2) Do keep in mind that when you don't understand something, it may be that there is nothing to be understood, or it may just be that you don't understand it. "I don't understand their meaning; therefore they have no real meaning" is a valid inference only if you have some reason to think of yourself as a self-sufficient repository and judge of all 'real meaning' (whatever you suppose that means). And since you are presumably in fact a mere human being, if you do take yourself to have some reason so to think of yourself, it would appear likely that you have the ill-fortune to suffer from some form of megalomania. But don't despair; remember this: "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise; and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed as a man of understanding." (Proverbs 17:28)
You nailed it, WCB, cause as you say, "NOBODY can really say what these ideas really are." But, fortunately for us, you can see through all those theological and philosophical claims, and tell us they are all "Jabberwocky arguments."
DeleteSomeone of your intellectual acumen is surely destined for greater things than posting on this blog.
David,
Delete""I don't understand their meaning; therefore they have no real meaning" is a valid inference only if you have some reason to think of yourself as a self-sufficient repository and judge of all 'real meaning' "
False. All that is needed is sufficient relevant repository and judge.
Your use of the word "all" is a sort of strawman, just an intentionally impossible standard merely asserted without support, for the purpose of knocking it down.
"But don't despair; remember this: "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise; and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed as a man of understanding." (Proverbs 17:28)"
Yet you here "move your lips", making you...
I don't entirely follow your attempt at reasoning here, but what I do surmise from your less than perspicuous remarks is that you think that "I don't understand the meaning of a claim; therefore it has no real meaning" actually is a plausible looking kind of inference. And that is (with all due respect) hilarious. (Not surprising, given your track record of comments here, but still -- the naked hubris -- hilarious.)
DeleteAnd this:
Delete"Yet you here "move your lips", making you..."
What? A fool? Erm, no. Clearly a master of logic you ain't.
David,
Delete"I don't entirely follow your attempt at reasoning here,"
Not surprising.
""I don't understand the meaning of a claim; therefore it has no real meaning" actually is a plausible looking kind of inference. And that is (with all due respect) hilarious."
Again, not surprising.
An absence of evidence is evidence of absence when one has good reasons to expect that one would observe the presence of evidence if absence were not the case.
Still don't understand, David? Still laughing?
Say, your kitchen table is cleared, you don't see your keys on your kitchen table, that is good evidence that your keys are not on your kitchen table. The negative evidence, your lack of observing keys on your kitchen table, is good evidence that your keys are not there, because you have good information that when your keys are there you can easily and reliably see them there. Do you understand yet, David, or are you still laughing?
""I don't understand the meaning of a claim; therefore it has no real meaning" actually is a plausible looking kind of inference."
Yes, when I have good reason to consider myself capable of understanding such a claim if it were sound. If the claim sounds like gibberish to me then that is good evidence the claim is gibberish in the case that I am generally a good judge of whether or not such a claim is or is not gibberish. Are you lost again, David? Try to keep up, OK?
You falsely introduced the standard of "all 'real meaning'". I don't need to be omniscient to make good judgements on limited subjects. Are you capable of make good judgements on certain subjects? Are you omniscient?
Have you ever come to the conclusion that a statement is nonsense because it sounds like nonsense to you and you consider yourself to be qualified to make that judgement on that subject?
Do try to keep up, OK David?
Sorry, I understand now (maybe? at least a glimmer?): 'Real meaning' (so to speak, if I may be permitted to use the expression in such baldly naïve fashion, despite the fact that I likely have no idea what it means, indeed whether it actually means anything, that is to say, whether the expression 'real meaning' has any of itself) is like keys on a table; I don't see keys on the table; therefore there is no 'real meaning.' Q.E.D. (It's an enthymeme; not all premisses have been explicitly spelled out.) That really does beautifully simplify things. Thank you.
Delete...of course, unless it fell under the table! (which circumstance would be rather 'under-the-table,' so to speak, or 'under-the-rug' (don't look under there), and ceteris paribus, assuming the necessary assumptions and presuming the necessary presumptions, of no theoretical, let alone practical -- let alone spiritual, cosmological, psychological, moral, astrological, genealogical, pathological, therapeutic, evolutionary, etc. -- importance)
DeleteTo spell this out a little more simply and directly:
DeleteSo in order to defend the plausibility of the inference "I don't understand the meaning of a claim; therefore it has no real meaning (i.e., nota bene, you deny all 'real meaning' to the claim)," you effectively offer the following analogous plausible(?!) inference: "If I don't see keys on the table, it follows that there are no real keys."
(Yah, I'm still laughing. I'm sorry if that seems unkind, but if you weren't so incorrigibly bumptious...)
"Yah, I'm still laughing. I'm sorry if that seems unkind"
DeleteNot at all, just indicates you are not a very clear thinker, who manifestly considers the employment of esoteric terminology as a substitute for making sense, and oddly finds that funny. Well, humor is in the feeling of the laugher.
"inference: "If I don't see keys on the table, it follows that there are no real keys.""
You neglected my further qualifier, on the table. That negates your rather silly suggestion of under the table.
You might consider holding your laughter long enough to begin thinking more clearly and specifically.
Real keys are not invisible to me in my experience, so it is a reasonable inference that if I do not see any keys at all on the otherwise clear table, then there are no real keys there.
Sure, you can speculate that actually a Klingon cloaking device is hiding the keys by making them invisible and transparent. One can concoct such idle speculations all day if one has the time to spare, so what?
Is a speculation such as a Klingon cloaking device a reasonable defeater for a reasonable inference? I suppose for a person who believes in an invisible god such speculations are no big stretch.
@Stardusty:
Deletewho manifestly considers the employment of esoteric terminology as a substitute for making sense,
Like 'Natural Selection', the 'invisible goddess-creator' in the mud?
I suppose if a satellite flew over my head but passed so high I couldn't detect it, I might deny it existed too. Such are the points being made in this conversation.
DeleteThe key analogy reminds me of another shallow thinking New Atheist (which is all of them) who said belief in God is like people who see a rock with a coloration or shape reminiscent of a face, and they conclude someone must have carved or colored it because it superficially appears designed. You couldn't submerge a sheet of paper with that depth of thought, but they always think they are the smartest kids on the block.
Just to add my two cents.
DeleteI don't understand their meaning; therefore they have no real meaning" is a valid inference only if you have some reason to think of yourself as a self-sufficient repository and judge of all 'real meaning' "
False. All that is needed is sufficient relevant repository and judge.
I think you gentleman (and ladies?) are talking past each other.
It seems obvious that "I don't understand their meaning; therefore they have no real meaning" does not require that you are a reliable judge af all alleged meaning, it only requies you are a reliable judge of that particular alleged meaning.
To establish whether "The president is a prime number" is a meaningful sentence doesn't require some kind of omniscience about all kinds of meaning, it only requires knowledge of the meaning of "president", "is" and "prime number".
Tha does not mean, however that I agree with SP that all the ideas on his list are indeed utterly nonsensical.
Very good, Walter, thank you. I think you're almost there. Three points:
Delete1) You know "the president is a prime number" is a nonsense-proposition precisely because you (take yourself to) understand the proposition (the senses and referents of its terms, which seem to be not sensibly predicable the one of the other). But suppose we have numbered photos and we're playing a guessing game and I'm giving you a clue. All of a sudden "the president is a prime number" is perfectly meaningful. So it appears after all that perhaps you do need to be "a reliable judge of all alleged meaning" if you want to be able to make that inference validly?
2) "Tha does not mean, however that I agree with SP that all the ideas on his list are indeed utterly nonsensical." ...which is to say, the disputed inference is indeed not valid or even plausible, in your view, at least as applied to SP... but then maybe you think it is valid as applied to yourself?
Thus, "SP doesn't understand the meaning of an idea; therefore the idea has no real meaning" -- invalid (and implausible).
But, "Walter doesn't understand the meaning of an idea; therefore the idea has no real meaning" -- valid (or at least plausible)?
I don't suppose so, right?? If SP can be mistaken in his universal negative ascriptions of meaning (again fellas, the assertion 'no meaning' just is the denial of 'all meaning' and thus implies a claim to knowledge of the latter) to particular ideas, probably Walter can be too, no?
3) SP apparently thinks that meaning is something like keys sitting in plain view on something like a table. So he imagines that if he's good at spotting keys sitting in plain view on a clear table, then he must be good at spotting meaning (yes, ALL possible meaning! -- not a straw man, a logical implication), if there is any, sitting likewise in plain view(!) on whatever it is he thinks that meaning, in analogous fashion, 'sits on.' Now do you suppose that's a remotely plausible, realistic analogy? What 'table' does ALL 'real meaning' sit on in plain sight such that if I don't see any there, then I can validly/plausibly conclude there is NO 'real meaning'?
"Not at all, just indicates you are not a very clear thinker, who manifestly considers the employment of esoteric terminology as a substitute for making sense, and oddly finds that funny."
DeleteOddly? I'm sure I can't be the only one that finds the ridiculously bumptious assertions you routinely trot out hilarious. (Not that I want to deny being odd!) As for 'esoteric,' well, dear SP, if you find the terms I use esoteric, maybe that's just an indication of the ridiculousness of your pretentions to knowing what you're talking about here? In any case, I'm happy to explain any overly fancy-looking terms that you're not familiar with. Just ask. Otherwise, to quote Wittgenstein, "whereof one cannot speak, thereof must one be silent."
(What's the difference between 'artificial intelligence' and 'artificial stupidity'? Essentially, none; and I'm starting to have an uncomfortable feeling that that might be what I'm interacting with here and the joke's on me. Damn paranoia.)
What 'table' does ALL 'real meaning' sit on in plain sight such that if I don't see any there, then I can validly/plausibly conclude there is NO 'real meaning'?
DeleteThe table is called "being a New Atheist", because that sort of person worships his own powers of reasoning (while being terrible at it).
David
DeleteIf Walter underdstands clearly that a proposition is meaningsless in the context of a certain discussion, then it has no real meaning in that context.
In a normal context the sentence 'The president is prime number' is meaningsless, and you know this, even without Bring omniscient.
So, I don't need omniscience to judge that a square circle is meaningsless, and so do you.
Two points, Walter:
Delete1) A question: What is the/a 'normal context' in which the sentence "the president is a prime number" (or the expression "square circle") is used?
2) Do note that the original inference under discussion was the following: "SP doesn't understand the meaning of an idea; therefore the idea has no real meaning." The inference you advance here seems significantly different: "If Walter understands clearly that a proposition is meaningless in the context of a certain discussion, then it has no real meaning in that context." You may be right, but I'd be curious to hear your argument for why Freud, who would say the opposite, is wrong.
David
DeleteThe 'normal 'context is the context in normal conversations. There is hardly ayuone who denies that a square circle is impossible, even though in some 'guessing game' you may give certain hints. That is not what we are talking about.
If SP is qualified to judge whether a particular idea has meaning, then "SP doesn't understand the meaning of an idea; therefore the idea has no real meaning" is a valid inference. SP only needs to be a reliable judge of that particular alleged meaning or idea.
Maybe he isn't reliable in that respect, but that's beside my point.
Bill
DeleteJust to add, Freud is wrong about lots of things. in fact, he is hardly ever still taken serious by the majority of the scientific community, so I don't really care about what Freud thinks.
"The 'normal 'context is the context in normal conversations." -- 'Normal conversations,' Walter? That seems unhelpful and less than candid, like you're trying to avoid facing up to something... (resistance, I guess Freud would say).
Delete"There is hardly ayuone who denies that a square circle is impossible."
So are you implying that 'meaningless' is the same as 'impossible'?
On Freud, think what you want, but the majority of the scientific community, like yourself, knows jack all about Freud, so why should anyone care what they (or you) think about it? Your retort here expresses in as clear a manner as is possible mere willful stupidity. What's the point of that?
If SP is qualified to judge whether a particular idea has meaning, then "SP doesn't understand the meaning of an idea; therefore the idea has no real meaning" is a valid inference.
DeleteSeems to me that if S is qualified to judge whether a particular idea has meaning, then S can't not understand the meaning of the idea he pretends to be qualified to judge. If you want to say, "I understand the idea, I just don't understand its meaning," then you're just profoundly confused about the nature of understanding and ideas and meaning. To understand an idea just is to understand its meaning.
(Anyway, for the love of gavagai, please no more willful stupidity -- why not go comment on youtube or whatever, if that's what you're into?)
David
DeleteA square has meaning and so does a circle, but the combination of both is a meaningless idea. So, I am qualified to judge whether that 'idea' has meaning, and so are you.
And, since I do not adhere to some pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo like psychoanalysis, so I am not going to speculate on your mental condition, I can only speak for myself, and I can assure you I am not omniscient.
Now, if you want to go on insulting people, then by all means, continue.
I won't waste my time replying to you anymore, unless you somehow manage to make a real argument somewhere. Who knows?
Norm MacDonald said that the "cis" nonsense is just a way to marginalize normal people.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteIn today's society, it's the mentally ill and the perverts who are running the show. Anormal people need to marginalize the sane ones, because both can't co-exist. They pride themselves in being freaks and at odds with reality.
"A fourth factor is the influence of moral vice. For example, if you have some deeply ingrained sexual perversion, especially one that you would like to indulge rather than resist, you’re more likely to take seriously some academic theory you’d otherwise dismiss as crackpot, if said theory would provide a rationalization for indulging the perversion."
ReplyDelete1) But otoh: If you have some deeply ingrained sexual taboo, especially one that you would like to perpetuate rather than interrogate, you’re more likely to dismiss as crackpot some academic theory you’d otherwise take seriously, if said theory would provide a rationale for interrogating the taboo.
2) If a man has "some deeply engrained sexual perversion," then it rather seems to follow that of course he will want to indulge it (at times) even if on the whole he would rather resist it. But is it true that he will accordingly be "more likely" to want to rationalize his perversion? (More likely than whom? I'm not quite clear on who the comparison class here is.) Are people who recognize their perversion as perversion and recognize themselves as habitual sinners, but who would prefer to be freed from the slavery of the passions, and hope to one day be freed therefrom, really more likely to be tempted to embrace crackpot theories rationalizing away their brokenness as fulfillment, just because they have deep-seatedly perverse passions? How would one go about determining if this really was the case or not?