It goes
without saying that it is extremely common for people to seek these pleasures too
frequently, or at the wrong time, or in the wrong way. In doing so they exhibit the vice of intemperance or licentiousness. But most
virtues are means between extremes, one of excess and one of deficiency. And that is true in this case. Intemperance is the vice of excess where sensory
pleasure is concerned. The vice of
deficiency in this area – of being too
little disposed to seek sensory pleasure – is known as insensibility. Because
intemperance is far and away the more common vice, especially today,
insensibility is rarely discussed. But,
precisely because intemperance is more common, it is important to understand
insensibility, because those rightly concerned to avoid the first vice
sometimes overreact and fall into the second.
Aquinas sums
up as follows the reason why insensibility is a vice:
Whatever is contrary to the natural
order is vicious. Now nature has
introduced pleasure into the operations that are necessary for man's life. Wherefore the natural order requires that man
should make use of these pleasures, in so far as they are necessary for man's
well-being, as regards the preservation either of the individual or of the
species. Accordingly, if anyone were to
reject pleasure to the extent of omitting things that are necessary for nature's
preservation, he would sin, as acting counter to the order of nature. And this pertains to the vice of
insensibility. (Summa
Theologiae II-II.142.1)
Hence, he
goes on to say, it is an error to think that avoiding pleasure altogether is a
good way to avoid sin. On the contrary,
“in order to avoid sin, pleasure must be shunned, not altogether, but so that
it is not sought more than necessity requires.”
Now, does
this entail that it is always and
inherently wrong to avoid a certain kind of sensory pleasure
altogether? And what does it mean for a
kind of pleasure to be “necessary”?
Let’s address these questions in order.
First, Aquinas acknowledges that there are cases where it is good to
shun sensory pleasure. In the same
article, he writes:
It must, however, be observed that it
is sometimes praiseworthy, and even necessary for the sake of an end, to
abstain from such pleasures as result from these operations. Thus, for the sake of the body's health,
certain persons refrain from pleasures of meat, drink, and sex; as also for the
fulfilment of certain engagements: thus athletes and soldiers have to deny
themselves many pleasures, in order to fulfil their respective duties. On like manner penitents, in order to recover
health of soul, have recourse to abstinence from pleasures, as a kind of diet,
and those who are desirous of giving themselves up to contemplation and Divine
things need much to refrain from carnal things.
Nor do any of these things pertain to the vice of insensibility, because
they are in accord with right reason.
End
quote. Similarly, Aquinas says that
forsaking marriage (and thus the pleasure of sex) for the sake of the higher
good of complete devotion to the contemplation of God is not only lawful
but superior to marriage.
However, in
each of these cases, sensory pleasure is forsaken for the sake of some special
situation or state in life. Absent such
circumstances, it can be vicious to eschew the pleasures in question. For example, suppose a person is married, and
desires to abstain from sex altogether for the sake of complete devotion to
spiritual things, but his spouse has not consented to this. Then, as Aquinas says,
it would be wrong to refuse sexual intercourse with the spouse. In the typical case, sexual pleasure is
simply a normal part of married life, and ought no more to be shunned than the
pleasures of eating and drinking that are also a normal part of life.
What, then,
of the other qualification Aquinas makes, to the effect that “pleasure must be
shunned, not altogether, but so that it
is not sought more than necessity
requires”? Some readers might assume
that he is saying that we ought to indulge in those pleasures that simply
cannot be avoided (such as the minimal pleasure that accompanies any normal act
of eating or having sexual relations) but should avoid any pleasure that goes
beyond that.
But that is not
what he is saying. To see why, consider
first what more he says about the nature of the pleasures associated with
eating, drinking, and sex, in the context of defending his view that sensory
pleasures have primarily to do with the sense of touch. He allows that there are secondary pleasures
associated with these activities that involve the other senses:
Temperance is about the greatest
pleasures, which chiefly regard the preservation of human life either in the
species or in the individual. On these
matters certain things are to be considered as principal and others as
secondary. The principal thing is the
use itself of the necessary means, of the woman who is necessary for the
preservation of the species, or of food and drink which are necessary for the
preservation of the individual: while the very use of these necessary things
has a certain essential pleasure annexed thereto. In regard to either use we consider as
secondary whatever makes the use more pleasurable, such as beauty and adornment
in woman, and a pleasing savor and likewise odor in food.
(Summa Theologiae II-II.141.5)
In other
words, with food and drink, though what is absolutely inseparable from them are
pleasures known through touch (such as a pleasing texture, temperature, and the
like), there are also secondary pleasures of taste and smell. Nor are these somehow pointless, for as he
goes on to say, they “make the food pleasant to eat, in so far as they are
signs of its being suitable for nourishment.”
Similarly, though the pleasure of sex involves primarily the sense of
touch, the activity is made “more pleasurable… [by] beauty and adornment in
woman,” and these pleasures are associated with sight more than touch.
Now, it
would be absurd to suppose that Aquinas thinks that temperance allows for the
enjoyment only of what is “necessary” in the strictest sense of being
absolutely inseparable from food, drink, and sex – for example, that it is
temperate to enjoy the texture of food but intemperate to enjoy its taste or
odor, and temperate to enjoy the feel of sexual intercourse but intemperate to
find pleasure in one’s wife’s beauty.
For one thing, these pleasures, despite being “secondary” in Aquinas’s
sense, are obviously as naturally associated with food, drink, and sex as the
pleasures of touch are. Nature makes
food taste and smell good for the same reason it makes eating it feel good,
namely to get us to eat. And the beauty
of the female body, no less than the pleasures of touch associated with
intercourse, is obviously also part of nature’s way of getting men together
with women so that they will have children.
For another
thing, Aquinas explicitly says elsewhere that temperance allows for the
enjoyment not only of pleasures that are necessary in the strictest sense, but also
those that are necessary in a looser sense or even not necessary at all:
The need of human life may be taken
in two ways. First, it may be taken in
the sense in which we apply the term “necessary” to that without which a thing
cannot be at all; thus food is necessary to an animal. Secondly, it may be taken for something
without which a thing cannot be becomingly.
Now temperance regards not only the former of these needs, but also the
latter. Wherefore the Philosopher says
(Ethic. iii, 11) that “the temperate man desires pleasant things for the sake
of health, or for the sake of a sound condition of body.” Other things that are not necessary for this
purpose may be divided into two classes.
For some are a hindrance to health and a sound condition of body; and
these temperance makes not use of whatever, for this would be a sin against
temperance. But others are not a
hindrance to those things, and these temperance uses moderately, according to
the demands of place and time, and in keeping with those among whom one
dwells. Hence the Philosopher (Ethic.
iii, 11) says that the “temperate man also desires other pleasant things,”
those namely that are not necessary for health or a sound condition of body, “so
long as they are not prejudicial to these things.” (Summa Theologiae II-II.141.6)
So, sensory
pleasure can in a relevant sense be “necessary,” for Aquinas, not only when it
is strictly unavoidable in order for eating, drinking, and sex to exist at all,
but also when it is simply “becoming” in relation to these things. And temperance allows for pleasures as long
as they are not a “hindrance” or “prejudicial” to health and soundness of body,
even if they are not quite necessary either.
One need merely consider the “demands of place and time, and [what is]
in keeping with those among whom one dwells.”
Aquinas does
not think, then, that temperance
requires a meal or sexual relations to be quick and businesslike, such that any
pleasure beyond the bare minimum associated with that would amount to
intemperance. And that is, of course,
just common sense. It is normal for
human beings simply to get on with eating, drinking, or lovemaking without
scrupling over whether they are taking too much pleasure in it. Indeed, apart from cases where someone
clearly has disordered appetites (alcoholism, hypersexuality, or the like) it
would ordinarily be neurotic and spiritually unhealthy to fret over such things
– to worry that one is guilty of sin for eating an extra slice of bacon, or
kissing one’s spouse with great passion, or what have you.
That is not
to deny that there can be excess short of addictions like the ones mentioned. For example, Aquinas notes
that one manifestation of the vice of gluttony is evident in those preoccupied
with “food prepared too nicely – I.e. ‘daintily.’” I would suggest that the sort of thing he has
in mind is evident today among people who call themselves “foodies” – always
going on about food in an embarrassingly overenthusiastic way, endlessly
seeking out new culinary adventures, and so on.
Similarly, even people who are not quite sex addicts can develop an
unhealthy preoccupation with it. When
food, drink, or sex becomes, not just a background part of normal human life,
but a fixation, that is an indication that someone has fallen into hedonism and
thus the vice of intemperance.
Then there
is the fact that one might now and again forego the pleasures of food, drink,
or sex not because enjoying them would be excessive or in any other way
disordered, but simply in a spirit of sacrifice – that is to say, not out of a
judgment that they are bad, but rather out of a judgment that they are good but
that it would be better still to do without them for the sake of some higher
end (to do penance, to develop self-discipline, or whatever).
However,
supposing that one is neither engaged in such occasional asceticism nor prone
to hedonism, then, as I have said, it would be neurotic and spiritually
unhealthy to fret over the minutiae of everyday eating, drinking, and marital
sexual relations – to try to ferret out subtle sins, in oneself or others,
relating to these things. A person who
tends to be overly suspicious of such pleasures is often characterized as a
prig, killjoy, or “stick in the mud,” and I’d suggest that this character type
is one manifestation of the vice of insensibility. Specifically, it involves insensibility of a
kind related to scrupulosity, the obsessive tendency to see sin where it does
not exist. It can arise as an
overreaction to the opposite extreme vice of intemperance, either in oneself or
in the larger society around one.
However,
that is not the only source of the vice of insensibility. Some people are simply “cold fish,” eschewing
sensory pleasures of one kind or another not because they suspect them of being
sinful but rather because they just lack much if any interest in them. Of course, there is a normal range of
variation in appetites for food, drink, and sex, just as there are normal
ranges of variation with respect to all human traits. But just as some people have extremely strong
appetites for one or more of these things and thus are in greater danger than
others of falling into intemperance, so too do some people have extremely weak
appetites and are in greater danger of falling into insensibility.
Whatever the
psychological factors behind a given person’s insensibility, it is truly a vice
rather than a mere variation in temperament, because it can harm both the
person himself and those with whom he lives.
In his 1953 dissertation The
Thomistic Concept of Pleasure, Charles Reutemann explains the individual’s
need for pleasure as follows:
The conscious suppression of pleasure
without some form of sublimation can have very harmful effects, since thereby
an appetitive tendency is frustrated in its natural movement. Not only would the appetitive movement tend to
become atrophied, but the whole man would be reduced to a state of sorrow and
depression…
Inasmuch as [intellectual] activities
have constant recourse to the ministrations of sense, there must be a resting
to relieve the attendant “soul-weariness.”
If pleasure is necessary as a cure
for “soul-weariness,” it must be more necessary for the body, since even
“soul-weariness” is reductively attributed to the body. For two reasons the body demands pleasure: as
a remedy against pain, and as an incentive to its own activity which is
generally laborious.
(p. 22)
And on the
necessity of pleasure to human social life, Reutemann writes:
Pleasure contributes mightily to the
establishing and facilitating of harmonious relations among men. For, just as society would lose its integrity
if men did not respect and manifest the truth to one another, so it would lose
its intrinsic dynamism if pleasure were not used as a “lubricant” to facilitate
inter-personal relationships. Giving
pleasure and living agreeably with one’s neighbor is considered by St. Thomas
to be a matter of natural equity. (p.23)
Reutemann
has pleasure in general in mind here, but let’s consider, specifically, the
pleasures governed by temperance. In
human beings, eating is not mere feeding, but the having of a meal, which is
commonly a social occasion. Drinking,
too, is something people prefer to do together – in a bar, at a party, while
watching a game together, or what have you.
Routinely to have to eat or drink alone is commonly regarded as
sad. Breaking bread or having a drink together
is commonly thought to foster peace and understanding between people who might
otherwise be at odds. What all this
reveals is that the pleasures of food and drink are typically shared pleasures, and the more intense
when they are shared. We take pleasure
not just in the meal, but in the fact that our family, friends, or
acquaintances are taking pleasure in it too, and taking pleasure in it with us.
Food and drink thereby reinforce social bonds, and all the goods that
follow from having those bonds. A person
who, due to the vice of insensibility, is insufficiently drawn to such pleasures
is thereby going to be less fulfilled as a social animal – lonelier, more
self-centered, less able to contribute to or benefit from the social orders of
which he is a part.
Sexual
pleasure too, when rightly ordered, is inherently social in nature insofar as
it functions to bond the spouses together via the most intense sort of intimacy
and affection. The vice of insensibility
manifests itself in this context when, due either to priggishness or a cold
disposition, one refuses sexual relations to one’s spouse, or participates in
them only grudgingly and unenthusiastically.
The frumpish wife or boorish husband can contribute to an atmosphere
wherein this vice is likely to take root.
When it does, sex is likely to become a source of marital tension rather
than amity.
Temperance in sexual matters, specifically, is
known as the virtue of chastity, and
it is a large topic of its own. Needless
to say, for Aquinas and Catholic moral theology, the fundamental principle here
is that sexual intercourse is virtuous only between a man and a woman married to
one another, and when not carried out in a contraceptive manner. Within these constraints, there is much in
the way of lovemaking that is consistent with chastity. I have spelled out the details in my essay “In
Defense of the Perverted Faculty Argument,” from my book Neo-Scholastic Essays. And I’ve said a lot more about sexual
morality in a number of other articles and blog posts, links
to which are collected here.
When addressing matters of sexual morality, Thomist natural law theorists and Catholic moral theologians have much to say about the vice of intemperance in this area. This is quite natural and proper, given the extreme sexual depravity that surrounds us today. Sins of excess related to matters of sex are by far the more common ones, and the ones modern people are most resistant to hearing criticism of. All the same, this is only part of the story, because there is an opposite extreme vice too, even if less common. Marital happiness, and the good of the social order that depends on it, require avoiding that vice as well.
Very interesting piece. But I wonder if we can limit asceticism to special situations or states in life. All Christians are called to attain perfection, which means there can be nothing in the mind's affections that can in any way oppose or hinder the mind's affections being totally (if not always actually) given to God. Granted, even most practicing Christians are not consciously striving to this end. But it doesn't change that fact that they are called to do so. If this is true, then the giving up of legitimate pleasures for the love of God would be a much more ordinary thing than you seem to suggest. And this is consistent with St. John of the Cross, for example, who in the first book of the Ascent of Mount Carmel says that we should renounce all sense pleasures that are not purely for the honour and glory of God. Now what "purely" etc. means might line up neatly with your explanation. But if we are called to progress in charity and so on, it just seems that a much more careful and to the outside world, austere, life is necessary.
ReplyDeleteInteresting thoughts, but I'm inclined to think that living as John of the Cross insists is impossible and perhaps even foolish. We should note that absolute perfection is inaccessible to us as human beings tainted by original sin, as Scripture states clearly (1 Jn. 1:8, 2:1). We're also taught that all our works, contemplative and austere as they may be, are as good as filthy rags (Is. 64:6), not to forget the state of the ascetic Pharisee relative to the tax collector (Lk. 18)!
DeleteThe point is, it's wrong to try and build a fence around God's law such that we eschew all pleasure that doesn't strictly incline towards God's glory or what have you. Our conscience is free; pleasures that don't mitigate against virtue (or progress in charity, as you say) are permissible. To suggest otherwise is nothing other than to invent doctrines and commandments (Mat. 15:9). The ones we've been given are enough!
Well, I would be careful in dismissing St. John of the Cross so lightly. He has great charity, he lived what he taught, helped many others (St Therese of Lisieux, for example), and the Church declared him a Doctor, after all.
DeleteBut to your point, of course, absolute perfection is not possible. There is, however, a kind of perfection that is possible to us in this life as wayfarers. St Thomas discusses this in article 8 of II-II, q. 24: “Can charity in this life be perfect?” His answer is the same at St John's and for that matter, Christ's: "He who does not renounce everything that he possesses, cannot be my disciple." St John explains that this refers to the will's "possessions", or attachments, which impede charity. But it would be rash to conclude that this means that true asceticism is entirely interior, and visibly or exteriorly we can live just like any unbelieving person. We are not pure spirits, but embodied creatures.
So I don't see why it is "building a fence around God's law". God's law is the law of love, and the more we love and esteem the things of the world, the less we love and esteem God. You are right that our choices (rather than our consciences) are free, and that there are permissible pleasures. But it is quite permissible, and indeed, recommended, often to give them up for the sake of love of God, for the remission of the temporal punishment of our past sins, to offer the small sacrifices for the conversion of sinners, and so on. It is traditional teaching, certainly not new and invented. The final comment about having "enough" doctrines and commandments shows that you think of them as burdens and limitations, rather than sources of light and freedom. But besides the fact that what I'm saying is not new, it has rather the opposite effect to what you seem to fear.
@Anon 2:26 PM My own two cents on this are that no pleasure or created good is intrinsically a draw away from love of God. It's only such due to our fallen nature, which won't be fully remedied until the afterlife and/or the resurrection. Giving up created things for different reasons is certainly a good thing, yet it's also certainly not the same as saying we should just forever abandon the good things God created for our enjoyment.
DeletePlus, we can enjoy things both to glorify God AND for our own delight, as these aren't mutually exclusive options. In fact, I think it's possible to argue that enjoying something for our own sake also in a sense glorifies God as that is also something good that exists, and what God also intended in giving us many things to enjoy.
Joe D said " I think it's possible to argue that enjoying something for our own sake also in a sense glorifies God as that is also something good that exists, and what God also intended in giving us many things to enjoy."
DeleteRight. The juicy steak, and its appreciation by a man, glorify God, the creator of both.
This is quite natural and proper, given the extreme sexual depravity that surrounds us today.
ReplyDeleteAtheists/ secularists have just inverted the terms. The telos/ final cause of sexual intercourse is now pleasure, and reproduction has become an accidental feature attached to the process. That's why you can get rid of your offspring without remorse, because that's no longer an essential or definitory characteristic.
Something which totally opposes the core of the evolutionary doctrine , which states that species tend to maximize their reproductive output, and not to minimize it.
We live in a kind of especially delirious times, where people who state that evolution is an inescapable fact of life are committing an outright violating of their own dogma and getting away with it.
First, atheism and secularism are two different things, neither of which have anything to say about sexual morality. Second, most Christians use birth control and support the right to abortion. It is also rare for anyone, Christian or otherwise, to have an abortion without experiencing remorse, and to claim otherwise is uncharitable, to say the least. Last (and least!), evolution is a scientific theory explaining the diversity of species, not a moral theory dictating how we should live.
Delete@ Anonymous:
DeleteFirst, atheism and secularism are two different things, neither of which have anything to say about sexual morality.
Atheism/ materialism has a LOT to say about sexual morality. Abortion, homosexual marriage, no fault divorce, etc are all laws that stem directly from materialist premises. Abortion stems from the materialist premise: "we are only matter/ brains". Homosexual marriage and no-fault divorce stem from the materialist premise: "any concept can be redefined because it's simply a matter of agreement among members of society" = nominalism.
And that can only happen in States that have been "secularized". If God's rules no longer apply, then the only available substitute is the "rule of humans". Secularism is the enabler of materialism.
Second, most Christians use birth control and support the right to abortion.
I would like to see some statistics about your "most Christians" declaration. But even if it were true, that means nothing. First: it's an appeal to numbers/ popularity. Second: there were Christians that supported slavery. And others supported Hitler. That only means that we are prone to sin due to our fallen nature. But the doctrine is clear: "thou shall not kill".
It is also rare for anyone, Christian or otherwise, to have an abortion without experiencing remorse, and to claim otherwise is uncharitable.
And why should that be? We are told "it's just a clumps of cells". Getting rid of that clump should be like getting a haircut or doing your nails.
Last (and least!), evolution is a scientific theory explaining the diversity of species, not a moral theory dictating how we should live.
It should be that way. But materialists have assimilated it to a metaphysics. Now we need no God, because "Nature" is all powerful and can bring life forth without any help. And the laws reflect exactly that. God is absent, and those who are better at agitation/ political manipulation, win. And that's of course the materialists/ atheists. Don't take my word. They even brag about it, about how powerful they have become and about how they're handling the re- modelling of society. Just search the comments section of this blog to see some examples.
Great post. This is a vice that i wish was discussed a little more sometimes. I wonder what Aquinas’ take on smoking would be. Is all smoking intemperate or only excessive smoking?
ReplyDeleteDo you have a take on this, Dr. Feser?
I would say that smoking certainly can be temperate. (In fact, I may be the perfect smoker, since I have a cigar and/or a cigarette or two probably about once a year or so.) But much depends on how habituated one becomes or is liable to become. This depends on personal circumstances, and I’m unsympathetic to arguments for a blanket condemnation of smoking (e.g. Grisez’s).
DeleteSo, as long asd you only pervert a faculty once or twice a year, it is okay.
DeleteA person's lungs have the 'telos' of taking in the air that is necessary for survival. They do not have the telos of taking in poisonous gas, whether this is pleasant or not.
If you smoke, you use one of your faculties exclusively for a secondary purpose, just like if you have sex in a contraceptive manner.
The only difference is that sex in a contraceptive manner is often not just for pleasure.
A consistent application of natural law would mean that it is okay, or even good, to enjoy the things that are necessary, like the pleasures of eating and drinking. It does not mean that taking poison once or twice a year is good for you, even if it has some pleasant effects.
A person's lungs have the 'telos' of taking in the air that is necessary for survival. They do not have the telos of taking in poisonous gas, whether this is pleasant or not.
DeleteBut the activity of poisons is dose-related. Since no one has developed any sign of physiological damage by smoking two cigarettes a year (science dixit ), then the "perversion" you're alluding to remains only potential and never becomes actual. Those lungs that evolution has so graciously gifted us with remain perfectly functional and capable of taking the air that's necessary for survival. You see, Walter, even to attack Prof. Feser you need the act/ potency distinction.
You atheists always lose :-)
Walter,
DeleteFor any thing the poison is in the dose.
People who smoke cigars do not inhale to the lungs and even if Dr. Feser's annual or biannual treat is a cigarette he does not stop breathing while smoking it.
Sodomy leaves absolutely no room for sex's procreative end.
Contraception also deliberately frustrates this end. And though it might be a stupid question, I wonder what good is served by any unitive effect of sex when the rational animal purpose of sex––namely, family––has been spurned?
But then, since no one has developed any sign of physiological damage by masturbating twice a year (science dixit), the perversion is also only potential and never becomes actual.
DeleteThose sexual organs that evolution has so graciously gifted us with remain perfectly functional and capable of producing the offspring that is necessary for survival of our species.
Apple seeds have tiny amounts of cyanide in them. Does that make eating apples the same as "taking poison" now and them? As Uncommon Descent says, it's a matter of quantity.
DeleteNo faculty is perverted because the lungs continue to take in air, oxygenate the the blood and so on even while smoking a cigar or cigarette. At most, smoking is only a use other than the telos of the lungs, not a use contrary to the telos.
DeleteThat is a complete misunderstanding of natural law ethics. The point is that perversion of faculties is evil, regardless of whether it has discernible health effects or not. As such, the "perversion" part is absolutely actual, regardless of whether the negative effects are. I would like to hear whar Dr. Feser thinks of this critique.
DeleteRené
DeleteIf you eat apple seeds to feed you, then the tiny amount of cyanide is just An unfortunate side effect. But smoking a cigarette does not feed you and the effect of smoking is a result of the toxic substances.
Zoe and Neil
If you do not inhale the smoke, you cannot breathe while smoking. In that case it is your mouth or throat that is frustrated.
A unitive effect is a good on its own, do it doesn't have to serve any additional purpose.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete@ Walter:
DeleteBut then, since no one has developed any sign of physiological damage by masturbating twice a year (science dixit), the perversion is also only potential and never becomes actual.
First: show me the stats. I know of a moron who masturbated with a vacuum cleaner and had to visit the emergency services. That would fall under the "physiological damage" category.
Second: masturbation is not intrinsically "bad" because it might physiologically damage the individual who masturbates*. It's "bad" because it affects the statistical outcome of reproduction. If millions or hundreds of millions of humans masturbate and do not engage in sexual activity leading to reproduction, then there are millions or hundreds of millions of instances in which the species is lowering its reproductive output capacity.
But, if millions or hundreds of millions of humans engage in the act of smoking two cigarettes a year, there's no harm involved either to the individuals (science dixit) or to the species as a whole. We all keep breathing with those lungs that evolution has so graciously gifted us with and the species can keep existing, because the harm remains only potential and never becomes actual with that dose usage.
*(It also involves soul damage/tarnishing. But, since atheists do not believe in the soul, I shall not focus on that).
@Walter:
DeleteIn that case it is your mouth or throat that is frustrated
That's ridiculous. Again, two cigarettes a year do not "frustrate the mouth" (whatever that means). Your overall capacity to eat is not diminished, because it's an scientific fact that people who smoke are capable of keeping being alive and to feed themselves. (Literally hundreds of millions of examples). Smokers do not die of "frustrated mouths". They tend to die of strokes or cancer.
If you do not inhale the smoke, you cannot breathe while smoking. In that case it is your mouth or throat that is frustrated.
DeleteNo, this is not how frustration of a faculty works; first, mouth and throat aren't faculties, but organs, and second, people do in fact breathe while smoking, and third, frustration requires an end set by use, and smokers do not generally smoke for the purpose of preventing themselves from breathing. You have completely misunderstood what is meant by the notion of perversion. It *is* possible to frustrate the respiratory faculty so as to get a genuine perversion; frustration of faculty involves using a faculty in such a way as to prevent the faculty from achieving its end, so in this case it would consist in using one's respiration for the purpose of making breathing impossible. People attempting suicide by suffocating themselves in their garages are a plausible example.
Brandon
DeletePeople do not generally have sex for the purpose of preventing conception. They have sex for pleasure, for bonding, for love... and while doing so they may prevent conception.
People smoke for pleasure or whatever and while doing so prevent the faculties from doing what they are supposed to do.
Mouth and throat aren't faculties but they are proper parts of the breathing faculty and the digestive faculty and a smoker doesn't use them for either purpose even if by accident they get some air in their lungs while inhaling the smoke.
My point is that the purpose of smoking has nothing to do with breathing in, just as the purpose of contraceptive sex has nothing to do with procreation. Yes, effective contraception does indeed prevent conception at that particular time, but smoking prevents your respitory faculties or your digestive faculties from achieving their ends.
The effect of smoking may not last as long as the effect of contraception, but that doesn't change the principles behind it.
@ Walter:
DeletePeople do not generally have sex for the purpose of preventing conception.
You can't have a purpose for a negative. A purpose seeks the fulfillment of something that is now potential and that later will become actual.
People smoke for pleasure or whatever and while doing so prevent the faculties from doing what they are supposed to do.
No, you haven't proved any of it. Potential prevention =/= actual prevention.
Mouth and throat aren't faculties but they are proper parts of the breathing faculty and the digestive faculty and a smoker doesn't use them for either purpose even if by accident they get some air in their lungs while inhaling the smoke.
"Proper". Lol. "Faculty". Double lol. As it has been told to you, breathing is not affected by two cigarettes a year. And you don't have to be 100% of the time eating, so smoking doesn't impede you from achieving the purpose of nutrition, unless you smoke 24/7, which no one has done, ever.
just as the purpose of contraceptive sex has nothing to do with procreation.
The purpose of sex without conception is just that: to experience the pleasure but without the annoyingly associated "burden" of conception. In other words, its purpose is to reduce conception to a permanent state of potentiality.
The effect of smoking may not last as long as the effect of contraception, but that doesn't change the principles behind it.
What does that even mean? You are mincing words and your discourse barely makes sense.
With all due respect, Walter. You seem to be a good person, but you are an extremely poor thinker. You have been visiting this blog for over a decade or so, and yet you have learned nothing. What a shame, because Prof. Feser is one of the best philosophers currently alive.
People do not generally have sex for the purpose of preventing conception.
DeleteYou are simply wrong about this: it is in fact true that people often have sex with the purpose of preventing conception as one of the purposes of their sexual actions, and it is the purpose behind why they have sex in the way they do; that it is not their only or even their primary purpose does not change that. Smokers on the other side don't generally ever have 'preventing respiration' as one of their purposes at all.
Mouth and throat aren't faculties but they are proper parts of the breathing faculty and the digestive faculty and a smoker doesn't use them for either purpose even if by accident they get some air in their lungs while inhaling the smoke.
No, this gets the relation between organs and faculties wrong -- in the sense of 'use' that is used in perverse faculty arguments, you don't use your organs. But more than that, this is incoherent; it obviously isn't frustrating the end of the respiratory faculty if in doing it they are engaging in actual respiration, or, as you call it, 'getting air in their lungs'. This is as looney-tunes a claim as saying that people are failing to conceive when they conceive. Moreover, smokers are very obviously not getting air into their lungs just by accident.
Yes, effective contraception does indeed prevent conception at that particular time, but smoking prevents your respitory faculties or your digestive faculties from achieving their ends.
No, this is simply incorrect, as previously noted; smoking doesn't prevent these faculties from achieving their ends. You also keep trying to conflate perversion (using a faculty in a manner inconsistent with its end), which is a very specific kind of failure, with other things (like preventing a faculty from achieving its end, not all forms of which are perversions); the result just gets the structure of the argument wrong and the basics of it incorrect, as well as making you a parody of yourself by stating things that are blatantly false (like your claims that smokers are only breathing by accident or that people don't generally have sex with contraception in order to prevent conception while having sex).
Brandon
DeleteAccording to Uncommon Decent you can't have a purpose for a negative, so if that's true, you are wrong.
But if it is true, you are wrong top, because when you smoke you obviously intend to do something that prevents your digestive faculty from doing what it is supposed to do and that you do something that actively damages your body.
But, if you insist on using the very narrow definition of perversion that conveniently happens to fit in the very shallow perverted faculty argument, I guess there is nothing further to discuss.
I just thought I would point out that if cigars frustrate the faculty of breathing when one does a draw, then so do straws. I know liberals hate straws too, so maybe Walter would be happy to bite that bullet.
Delete@ Walter:
DeleteTo be more precise, you can"t have a purpose to a negative in the example you are discussing. People certainly do not have the purpose of non conception simpliciter when sex is involved . People do not wake up and decide "I am going to not conceive today". That would be absurd. What they have in mind when they engage in contraceptive sex is to engage in the pleasurable part, but avoiding the risk of reproduction, which has to be actively avoided/ frustrated. If reproduction gets in the way of pleasure, then reproduction has to be frustrated by the necessary means.
You can for example have the "negative" purpose of not going to work, so you can choose not to leave home. But that case is different, because the human body is not directed per se to make you going to work. It's not its primary purpose. The human body has the capacity to make you move in general, which includes allowing you to go to work, but bodily movement per se is not oriented towards "going to work". Sex, on the other hand, is clearly oriented towards reproduction.
Biting a bullet perverts a faculty too, but since I don't care about faculties being perverted, I'll bite it if necessary.
DeleteI don't really know what exactly you mean by straws. if you mean breathing through a straw, then that does pervert the breathing faculty.
UncommonDescent
DeleteThank you for making my point, although you do not realize it.
Sorry for misspelling you name.,BTW.
@ Walter:
DeleteIn De Potentia, St. Thomas explains how Anaxagoras erred in his chain of reasoning because he failed to distinguish between being-in-act and being-in-potency.
Or was it Walter Van den Acker?
@Walter:
DeleteThank you for making my point
Which one? That people are actively frustrating the end of their reproductive faculties?
Darwin said that organisms capable of securing mates have higher fitness. But with H. sapiens we see individuals who have secured mates and yet their reproductive fitness is minimal (or inexistent). H. sapiens members spend lots of resources to mate but without adding new members to the species. That shows that Mr. Darwin's theory is bollocks, at least when we are talking about this very "special" species, H. sapiens.
I did not write De Potentia, so it was probably St. Thomas.
DeleteConversations that will never happen:
DeleteWalter: "When you smoke do you intend to do something that prevents your digestive faculty from doing what it is supposed to do and that actively damages your body?"
Ed: "Yes. Obviously."
Walter: "Hah! I knew it."
David
DeleteNever say never.
@ Walter:
DeleteThere are higher chances of Dawkins putting forward a truly good philosophical argument than of you getting to experience such a conversation becoming actual.
I agree the probability is low, but nothing is impossible. Stranger things have happened.
Delete@ Walter:
DeleteWell, certain things are obviously impossible:
A square circle...
A married bachelor...
A false truth...
Evolution giving a cr*p about "morality"...
Darwin's silly theory being right...
Dawkins writing something resembling intelligent discourse....
Materialism having a shred of veracity...
Papalinton being handsome...
Prime matter actualizing itself...
Prof. Feser agreeing with you...
I do not know what Papalinton looks like, so maybe he is handsome.
DeleteAnd, who knows, one day Ed will finally realize he believes fasle truths. Highly improbable, I agree, but not impossible.
BTW, AFAIK, Ed believes in "Darwin's silly theory".
But maybe you are the only person descending from an ancestor we don't share with apes. Highly unlikely, but, I guess, not impossible.
Also notice how secularists/ atheists tend to brag about their sexual life. What they are implying when they resort to this pathetic move (which they do frequently) is that the pleasure attained through sexual activity is an objective good in itself. So, when certain members of the species ("conservatives") resist this urge and do not to center their lives around said pleasure, it is implied that they are "defective" ones.
ReplyDeleteThese people are Aristotelian through and through. Their base line of reasoning gravitates towards the act/ potency distinction, although they are not consciously aware of it*. For example, in the abortion debate they advance the substance/ accidents division (where the mother would be the per se subsistens and the foetus would be the per accidens part, something that is accidentally attached to the mother but unable to enjoy the perks of existence by itself and therefore eligible to be removed). Pregnancy would be then the mother undergoing an accidental change, instead of it being an instance of substantial change, in which a new individual is created.
* I have labelled this as proto- hylemorphism. It's an instinctive hylemorphism, one that has not been formally trained but that is nonetheless very pervasive among members of Western society.
" ...notice how secularists/ atheists tend to brag about their sexual life."
DeleteHaha. I spent some years "back in the day" as a sort of 2nd Amendment advocate in online forums.
As you might expect, one level down from the most superficial exchange of mere assertions, the "philosophy" of the organisms of the left** bottomed out with positive law. Natural or inherent rights didn't exist. Only social permissions; as defined and parceled out of course, by the evolutionarily self-anointed.
[** Since if all humans are soulless meat machines, and if lefty X is a 'human' , then lefty X is by his own conditional a soulless meat machine. Sounds fair ...]
After an exchange or two then, once they realized that they were out of their depth syllogistically, philosophically, historically, psychologically, and in every other way, a mysterious breaker switch would trip within them, and they would sometimes start yammering, seemingly a propos of nothing, about "sex".
This was puzzling, if amusing, to those watching the debates. It made no sense until one began to consider the big picture: by keeping their leftist "anthropology" always before one's mind. And as a result, to begin seeing clear-eyed the redounding implications for them of their own theory. Politeness usually causes us to both advert our eyes as well as rule out of court as unacceptable the conclusions that are otherwise obvious.
For, what are they on their own terms then, but - in a rough reductionist sketch - double helices enveloped in a skin sack; meaningless concretions of parallel chemical processes; instances of, in phenomenal terms, fundamentally incoherent congeries of appetites?
Yeah, so then, what have they got to sell or plead for?: objective value, either their own or that of anything else?
No, what they have, all they have, what their entire be-ing is centered on - and nothing more than this - is acceptance, affirmation [KEYWORDS ALERT] by, and validation through the process of integration into the chemical structure of others. This is exemplified for them by how often or successfully "their own" skin carapace is judged acceptable for contact by the hidden program concealed within another similar entity. LOL
No wonder that such types view mental processes as a form of hallucination. Their own existence as a perduring identity, a "person" in an intelligible reality, is on their own analysis, just an epiphnomenally generated illusion.
Talk about Zombies. Yeah they're Zombies. Shrug. They are an effect, not an agent, despite the noises the "system" emits in order to affect your behavior. It's kinda like they are an entity portrayed in an old 1950's Sci Fi movie script where the Freudian idea of the unconscious being the "real" phenomenon transpiring behind the appearance, has been blended with the notion of an alien life force inhabiting the shell of a former human being. Only it's an idea now affirmatively adopted and embraced as the existential anthropology of the modern leftoid as our deep reality.
No wonder they are so indifferent as to the prospect of their extinction or replacement by cybertronic "life". Just one last orgasmic validation and its flood of dopamine ... and ... extinction here we come! Or go, depending ...
Yes, so, while viewing these people with some appropriate distance, one is indeed justified in replying to them in parallel to the wag who responded to Ron Reagan's assertion that he is not afraid of going to Hell, with, "Yeah, well Ronnie, I am not afraid of your going to Hell, either."
"You say there is nothing really to you? That you are really just a bag of appetites? Well then, OK. Noted for future reference."
What was that that Vonnegut used to say? "And so it goes"
" ... These people are Aristotelian through and through. Their base line of reasoning gravitates towards the act/ potency distinction, although they are not consciously aware of it*. "
DeleteAlthough I have never reduced or reformulated the left's general tendency to justify the destruction of the fetus on the basis of a mutated act/potency framework, I suspect most have noticed how when the progressives are not simply being unapologetic nihilists, they inevitably begin pantomiming natural law and rights arguments by emitting conclusory formulations which deploy natural law-like terminology, but without the supportive arguments or metaphysics.
One instance would be the United Nations' comical explanation of human rights as something "you are just born with" to paraphrase.
We also have seen a commenter here incanting the New Natural Law terminology of "human flourishing" as if these words once juxtaposed in a phrase wielded magical suasive powers. Apparently, said commenter never saw the clips from the Sam Harris - William Lane Craig debate on the sufficient grounding needed to logically support an objective framework for moral values: wherein, Harris famously had his rhetorical ass handed to him by Craig in one of the more humiliating episodes in Harris' humiliation filled debate career.
"Human flourishing" , "sentience", "interests" , "born that way", "empathy" : it's just one hand-piercing weak reed after another that these progressive clowns rely on in the hope that it will provide them enough support to limp safely home.
It never does.
@DNW:
Deletedouble helices enveloped in a skin sack
DNA is nothing but the "form"*, that which makes an individual "actual", and that which makes it belong to a specific kind ("human").
Or, to be more precise, that's what materialists understand for "substantial form". But any A-T proponent knows that a "material substantial form" is an absurd.
" 'Avert' one's eyes...", that is.
DeleteThe added "d" is a key away from the "a" so even with man hands, I must have hit it separately, even using an iphone. Huh...
@DNW:
Deletea mutated act/potency framework...
I like the expression! :) After all, mutation is the fuel that propels evolution, the "uncaring mom" that has brought all of us here (or so they preach incesantly). And mutatio is the latin word for "change". But according to these lunatics, change is not "real" but "hallucinated", therefore evolution never occurred after all: it's all just in our imagination, an imagination that has been modelled by evolution, the evolution that according to their premises is not real but part of a static hallucinated 4D parmenidean block... Makes sense, being a naturalist is "rational", but believing in the Logos is "lame" and "ridiculous".
And coming back to the abortion debate, and regarding your commentary about Natural Law, the threshold for viability is another appeal* to the substance/ accidents division: once the fetus, an "accident", reaches a certain degree of maturity, it has transitioned from accident to substance: and killing a substance is "not ok", because substances "have inherent rights". Hence why certain people are in favor of abortion up to the moment of birth, because killing a baby who is still attached to the umbilical cord is ok (accidents deserve it), but if you kill it 5 minutes later, after the cord has been cut, then you are a "baddie", because it is now a "substance". And then it deserves to live and "flourish".
* Philosophically untrained appeal, another instance of proto-hylemorphism.
This article is extremely helpful. Very grateful for it.
ReplyDeleteWell, it seems to me that if, and not only if, insensitivity is a vice, then ignorance is likewise. As a practicing agnostic, I have held that the Church rewarded ignorance as bliss;did not like science because science was for smart people; smart people were apt to be independent, and independence was dangerous. The thing about ignorance now is it is a cop out: people are too busy to take care of business, thinking they are, in some way, entitled to be taken care of. This was once a public welfare issue, morphing into racial matters and, lately, the gender/crossgender/transgender fiasco(es).
ReplyDeleteNow, anyone may choose to be insensitive. Or, ignorant. This is, my friends, free will . Whether anyone thinks there are half-a-dozen ways to have anything is pretty speculative: the more options available; the greater the margin of error. That has something to do with diminishing returns, and,I did not devise that. There are some people who comment here and make sense. I like that. If you want debate or argument, there is lots of room for that, of course. It does not light my fuse.
Aquinas would agree that ignorance (if it is culpable) is a vice.
DeleteI don’t see how one could argue that the Church has rewarded ignorance without himself displaying significant ignorance. The Church has always funded and encouraged theological, scientific, medicinal, philosophical, historical, and many other fields of research.
Read the Summa and tell me with a straight face that the Church opposes studiousness.
Dr. Feser,
ReplyDeleteThis is from "The Philosophy of Sex According to St Thomas Aquinas" by Rev. Mark Toon, O.S.B., M.A., published in 1954 by Catholic Univ of America Press with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat. It seems that St Thomas thought there was some element of ":disfavor" in the sexual act, according to Rev. Toon. What is your take on that?
https://isidore.co/CalibreLibrary/Toon,%20Mark,%20O.S.B.,%20M.A_/The%20Philosophy%20of%20Sex%20According%20to%20St.%20Thomas%20Aquinas_%20An%20Abstract%20of%20a%20Dissertation%20(9029)/The%20Philosophy%20of%20Sex%20According%20to%20St.%20Tho%20-%20Toon,%20Mark,%20O.S.B.,%20M.A_.pdf
22 The Philosophy of Sex
An amount of disfavor in St. Thomas' view. What are the
elements that enter into this inordinateness of the sexual
act? First of all, there is a certain bodily uncleanness in the
very act of discharge of the seed, both in male and female.
Secondly, there is an excess of sensible pleasure in the act
of intercourse, for the concupiscible appetite rushes toward
sex pleasure in an unbridled manner. Thirdly, St. Thomas
is convinced that during the performance of the sexual act
the reason is clouded. With his high opinion of man's intellect, St. Thomas disliked to see it lowered or impeded,
even for a short time. Finally, the sexual act contains an inordinateness in so far as it keeps a person from the complete
service of God. If indulged in to excess, the act of intercourse can lead to the complete submergence of the personality in sense pleasures and the consequent neglect of
the things of God. Even lawful sex pleasures draw a person down from the summit of virtue. "
Perhaps Saint Thomas should have tried it once or twice in his life.
DeleteAt least then he would have known what he was talking about.
It he really thought about it this way, then that is an insult to every married couple because the sexual act is complete service of God. If Thomas had ever experienced the fullness of married life, he wouldn't have refrained from these kind of nonsense.
I am always baffled by the hybris of people like Thomas, who are so full of themselves that they are convinced they are so much better than everybody else.
The sad truth is, if everybody followed his example, human beings would grow extinct in only one generation.
@ Walter:
DeleteYou are envious, because he knew latin and you don't.
I don't know Latin, but I do have a wife.
DeleteAnd I know Dutch and Aquinas didn't AFAIK
But I do have a wife.
DeleteUff. Monogamy. How "reactionary". I can't wait for the moment when "liberals" will legalize polygamy and marriage with members of our own family.
Envious of polygamists, UD?
Delete"So, sensory pleasure can in a relevant sense be “necessary,” for Aquinas, not only when it is strictly unavoidable in order for eating, drinking, and sex to exist at all, but also when it is simply “becoming” in relation to these things. And temperance allows for pleasures as long as they are not a “hindrance” or “prejudicial” to health and soundness of body, even if they are not quite necessary either. One need merely consider the “demands of place and time, and [what is] in keeping with those among whom one dwells.” "
ReplyDelete---
I'm not really a fan of this kind of move, tbh. It seems to me that Aquinas is muddying the waters by allowing vagueness in his definition of "necessary" so as to open the door for the things he wants to allow for, only then to close it again when it comes to other things he doesn't want to allow for by reverting back to the stricter definition.
I was disappointed to read this post. I hoped for better from Aquinas. The question is hugely important for human life: what pleasures are good? The governing principles are good too: (1) the pursuit of pleasure should be moderate, neither too little nor too much, and (2) God gives us pleasures for a reason. But then Aquinas goes all instrumentalist on us, in what you quote, which I can believe is all he says. He says pleasures are good insofar as they serve a higher end such as obeying God (directly) or keeping yourself alive so you can serve God (indirectly).
ReplyDeleteWhat, then, of the pleasure of a juicy steak, eaten in moderation, on a special occasion?
You try to rescue Aquinas from saying that the steak is a bad pleasure, but you don’t succeed. I’m thinking of a steak which is not eaten to further a social relationship like on Mother’s Day or in worship of God on Easter. It’s totally unnecessary for staying healthy; beans will give you the same protein. It is costly, and the money could have gone to the poor or to decorate a church. Yet I have a strong feeling that the pleasure is good, not just in the sensation but in the act as a whole, and enjoying steak in the way should even be considered as a duty as well as a pleasure, though not a universal duty like acknowledging God as Creator.
Why do I feel this? I really mean “feel”, because I think usually, though not always, feelings like that have a good basis, if only we can discover it. Here, it’s not hard to go at least a little further. Human beings sure look like they were made so as to enjoy steaks. An evolutionary biologist would say, and perhaps Aquinas would too, that it’s just we are created to get pleasure from steak because coincidentally that pleasure sensation keeps us healthy by driving us to get protein to keep us healthy. But is it just that? I think being human is good, and a big part of being human is pleasures like steak and that God created us to live as fully human. And that is so even with the simplest desires, such as the steak.
The steak is simple, but the case of higher pleasures might be a more attractive example. Is it good for me to feel pleasure in reading Portis’s True Grit? Or hearing King Lear? Those works make me a little bit wiser, to be sure, so there is some instrumenal benefit, but if I knew I were to die tomorrow, would it be wrong to watch a performance of King Lear today? I think it would please God if I did.
I say “I think” because I’m not sure. It is a crucial question. The ascetic Christian think that I should give up steak and True Grit and King Lear, and eat beans and pray all the time. I think they should eat som e steak and pray less. Only one of us is right. How do we decide? That’s what I hoped to get out of Professor Feser’s post.
You're not applying temperance to your thought processes. Your post is a display of rational concupiscence. If you think too much you waste a lot of energy and then you'll need to eat to replenish yourself. That money could have served to feed the poor or to buy Dawkins a hearing aid. How many thoughts would have Aquinas advised us to have?
DeleteJust chill.
Eric - just ignore Uncommon when he states that your interesting post is a display of 'rational concupiscence'. As you will know, this fellow is not noted for 'thinking too much'.
DeleteUncommon - just ignore Anonymous.
DeleteEric,
DeleteWith all due respect, you must not have read the same article as I did. It's clear that St. Thomas would say that a steak eaten on a special occasion would be necessary in other ways. For example, if you're having a steak at a party to celebrate a special occasion, then that fulfills a very special human need, one of socializing. It's a virtue to make social interactions pleasant.
As for the disagreement between the ascetic Christian and yourself, the answer from this post is clear: it depends on the person in question. There is no absolute right answer for one and everyone. It's going to depend on the particular circumstance, as Prof. Feser said.
"The ascetic Christian think that I should give up steak and True Grit and King Lear, and eat beans and pray all the time. I think they should eat som e steak and pray less. Only one of us is right."
DeleteActually you're probably both wrong. There is one body, but not only one path, one gift, one calling. "Ignoring the imperfections of others, preserving silence and a continual communion with God will eradicate great imperfections from the soul and make it the possessor of great virtues." (John of the Cross -- if you want to be really disappointed, read his riff on the Desert Fathers, "Sayings of Light and of Love," a rich source of sayings just begging to be taken out of context and to give idle passersby the impression of being written by a fanatical lunatic.)
I've known many perverted faculty who make arguments.
ReplyDeleteIn that case, why don't we settle this once and for all by asking our facuties what they think about it?
DeleteWell put and logically stated, Eric. The admitted agnostic tips a hat to you. Carry on please. There is intelligent life here, antes todos. My tablet translated antes todos as God is. Wrong answer, tablet. And that is my point, aqui y, ahora. Nada mas, amigo.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the desires and earthly pleasures we experience as humans are part of our spiritual learning curve. Could it be part of a process leading to spiritual immunity of our human side?
ReplyDeleteMy latinish makes me think you meant apres tout; I get the idea. Admitted agnostic, do you believe in natural law? It does work okay even leaving the Creator out of the picture-- perhaps that's Aristotle and Confucius. Of course, natural law is evidence for God, but that's for you to deal with.
ReplyDeleteFollowing along with Eric above, and other comments, I think that St. Thomas’s analyis (If Feser gets him accurately) is relatively poor. It might be more in the phrasing rather than the content, but I can’t be sure of it. Take this:
ReplyDeleteSpecifically, they reflect our needs for self-preservation and for preservation of the species. Eating and drinking exist in order to meet the first need and sex exists in order to meet the second. The pleasures associated with these activities exist in turn so that we will be drawn to carrying them out. And temperance is needed so that the pleasures will perform that motivating task successfully.
I believe that it is detrimental to cast the purpose in terms that would work just as well for animals as for humans. Why? Because the rational nature doesn’t just take the animal nature (with its telos) and ADD a new facet, reason, on top of the existing goods. No: it completely re-writes the meaning of all the lower faculties (and their goods), so that they now have a new model of goodness, that of rational goodness. And the virtue that orders these particular faculties does so not primarily from the standpoint of preservation (of the individual and the species) but primarily for the rational good, which has its fundamental core in love of God. It is charity which orders the lower faculties (and the virtues that address them) properly in the rational animal. Specifying the virtues without reference to charity gets those lower faculties serving their (specific, proximate) ends under the wrong framework. A human, fully ordered, carries out the activities of eating and drinking and the marital embrace for the sake of charity, as re-written for the rational animal (i.e. under a different model than charity as written for angels.) This means that the conjugal act, especially, is an act entered into primarily for the love of God, by which we express – in a distinct physical, emotional, and (discursively) rational way – love for spouse and love for the (potential) child that God may create therein – i.e. love for others as the fruit of love for God, expressed in the human way. (This is why, right after Genesis says God made man “in his own image” implying a rational nature, it then says He made them male and female, indicating that the specific expression of their rational animal nature carries right into the complementarity of sexual reproduction for love of God: it is a rational animal way of expressing trinitarian love.)
The goods of the other faculties are, similarly, re-written by the rational good. The goods of eating are highlighted by joining the pleasures of filling the belly, sensing good-tasting food, and enjoying the meal with friends, under the controlling impetus of love of God as its primary motive. We don’t just add love of God to the other goods, the love of God re-writes the meaning of those lower goods so that they become aspects of the charity that drives the human will as its primary end, they become charity carried out as rational animal.
For asceticism: we need this practice due to our fallen and defective faculties, it is not of the very essence of the good life. If a man were perfectly confirmed in the virtues, he could gain more in charity by marital relations done wholly for the love of God and springing out of that, for the goods God INTENDED to attach to that charitable act than from an entire lifetime of ascetical works done only imperfectly for love of God. The religious life of complete celibacy is a good primarily because of sin, it would not express a perfection of human life simply as such. It is an instrumental good, done for the sake of others given the damage sin does to the human family.
Continued…
Good point. Suppose I buy a poor child some ice cream. Is that an act of virtue? Yes, I think. But Aquinas would say, No. The child does not need a luxury like ice cream (let us assume the child is not starving-- and even then, why ice cream rather than potatoes?). The only good of the ice cream is that it gives the child pleasure. But if pleasure is not a good goal for me, then it isn't for the child either, and it isn't good for me to encourage mere pleasure. It's better that the child be ascetic.
DeleteIn a nutshell, charity re-writes our rational nature's grasp of lower goods (sense appetites) so that hunger is no longer primarily directed towards filling my belly but towards loving God. That's... what? Poetic? Johanno-pauline ("ToB")? Or just silly, insane?
Delete"terms that would work just as well for animals as for humans."
DeleteBut temperance, I thought, is the ordering of the sense appetites according to the measure of reason -- which is to say, temperance is not a term that works just as well... (etc.). I'm not sure what is the point of saying that the ordering of the, say, genital faculties gets completely re-written, so that the conjugal act is now primarily about love of God; while you still recognize that such an act is proximately about the preservation of the species, i.e., the begetting of human life. Love of God is the ultimate end; and while the ultimate end has a certain primacy, so does the proximate end, so the way you're phrased it is confusing. The (natural) proximate ends of human acts are perfected in grace, but their nature is not thereby destroyed, abandoned, replaced, and thus not, I would suggest, "completely rewritten." Rather they enter into their own perfection, which perfection is still instrumental, as directed towards (and not as constituting!) a glorious (clarified, enlightened, fully accomplished) sharing in the life of the Blessed Trinity -- and again this is an addition, not a substitution, not a "complete rewriting"; they retain their natural directedness towards their proximate, natural ends.
Love of God is the ultimate end; and while the ultimate end has a certain primacy, so does the proximate end, so the way you're phrased it is confusing. The (natural) proximate ends of human acts are perfected in grace, but their nature is not thereby destroyed, abandoned, replaced, and thus not, I would suggest, "completely rewritten."
DeleteI agree that the proximate end remains in place. What I am urging is not that the proximate end is eliminated and replaced with another end, no: it is that what had been meaning of the proximate end itself changes.
Consider the eyes: for animals, the proper object of sight is the colored thing. For humans, it is still the colored thing, but with this difference: in the animal, the end of sight remains in the particular realm, but for humans the faculty of sight is the pre-eminent sense from which the active intellect abstracts the intelligible form from the sensory input. So while in animals sight never rises toward an operating mode above particularity, in the rational animal the sense of sight feeds the rational faculty (which considers universals). This doesn’t mean the eyes of humans are no longer for sight, it means that in them sight itself is for a purpose above that of the animals.
Similarly, what is the reproductive faculty in animals correlates with a “reproductive” faculty in humans. But in humans the proper reproductive act is an act of love – love of God, of the spouse, and of the child who may come about from God’s operation and our cooperation. And without that love, the physically similar act isn’t a proper human act, (even though it may engender a child) – indeed, its definition will change (e.g. it may be rape or fornication) which suggests that the nature of the act itself includes the love as an essential part of the definition – as Aquinas implies (I – II, Q 18, A5).
Another way of ariving at the same result is to consider what are sometimes called “virtual” forms that seem to act in the parts of the living thing. In water, the molecules behave certain ways as water will, and we ascribe that to the form of water. When those molecules are part of, say, a wolf, the only real substantial form is the form of wolf, but the "water" in the wolf still behaves like water, i.e. it behaves as if the form of water is the principle of operation. While the water molecules are in some sense still “water” inside the wolf’s cells, properly they are “wolf” and act under the wolf’s substantial form like water would act if separate. Similarly with larger structures in the animal, such as senses.
Expanding that: we refer to three kinds of souls in natural (living) things: the vegetative soul, the animal soul, and the rational soul. Animals in general have powers and faculties that incorporate those of the vegetative soul - nutrition and reproduction – but add senses and locomotion. The rational soul has those powers, and reason. We may speak in a sloppy way as if a man has vegetative soul and sensitive soul, but really there is one substantial form and one soul, which includes the lower powers, but nnot the lower souls as such. But it includes them as applied to a rational end, which is an utterly different kind of end.
We can see the effect of this difference in behavior: a man – though complete qua human – rightly can forego the use of the reproductive faculty for the love of God and others (not just for a time, (because now is not the right time), but permanently). This implies that his proper good is not per se found in reproducing, as it would be in a complete, successful animal. Similarly, a man can lay down his life for God’s sake – and be fulfilled as a man: this shows that all of his faculties are subordinate to charity, which directs the faculties toward a divine end.
Expanding that: we refer to three kinds of souls in natural (living) things: the vegetative soul, the animal soul, and the rational soul.
DeleteVeganism is a tacit acknowledgement of this Aristotelian division: plants do not have the capacity to experience suffering, therefore it's not immoral to eat them.
They say matter acquires (or not) certain capacities depending on its "complexity" (which is of course nothing but Aristotle's form). Under "this complexity" (form) you acquire "this set of properties". Under "this other complexity" (form) you acquire "this other set of properties", etc.
And veganism is going to become the next woke imposition. So Eric, you'd better forget about "juicy steaks". You'll only have beans available to eat and won't need to worry about such thoughts.
*Aristotle should sue anyone who employs his philosophy without acknowledging the source.
Tony wrote, "I agree that the proximate end remains in place. . . . " I don't know Thomistic, Platonic, or Aristotelian philosophy much, but I wonder if people have connected it to Identity politics of the current day. The sermon I heard today was on Philippians 1: 1. "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:", talking about the Christian's identity as a Christian and the meaning of "the saints in Christ Jesus".
DeleteBy the way, do Roman Catholics define "saints", "sancti", hagioi, as only verified Saints, or all in the church invisible?
Eric, there is more than one sense of the word "saint". Sometimes St. Paul uses it to refer to those, here in this life, who received the faith, were baptized, are living the life of grace. This can be used in the narrower sense for the subset of those living the life of grace who do so in heroic degree, and who are known to have a special relationship with God because God performs many miracles through them. We also sometimes use it for someone who seems to have heroic virtue even if they don't have a list of miracles associated with them, saying someone "is a living saint".
DeleteThree senses can be noted for those who have passed away: (1) all those who are in heaven. (2) Those in heaven who went there directly, without having to stop in Purgatory for purification. And (3) those who are in heaven and whose condition of holiness has been well-enough attested to that the Church formally proclaims them to be in heaven. The latter group represents the most distinctive and most clear sense of the term (also the smallest, I think there are about 7,000 proclaimed saints), but that doesn't imply the other senses of "saints" are somehow improper uses.
What the second group adds to the first is the entailment that they persevered in the state of grace to the end of their lives, thus cementing their condition in friendship with God for all time, whereas those still living might lose that condition.
Hi Tony, just noticed this other reply.
Delete"And without that love, the physically similar act isn’t a proper human act, (even though it may engender a child) – indeed, its definition will change (e.g. it may be rape or fornication) which suggests that the nature of the act itself includes the love as an essential part of the definition – as Aquinas implies (I – II, Q 18, A5)."
Let's see:
ST I-II.18.5 ad 3: actus coniugalis et adulterium, secundum quod comparantur ad rationem, differunt specie, et habent effectus specie differentes [the conjugal act and adultery, taken in relation to reason, differ by species, and they have effects which differ by species], quia unum eorum meretur laudem et praemium, aliud vituperium et poenam [since one of them deserves praise and reward, the other censure and punishment]. Sed secundum quod comparantur ad potentiam generativam, non differunt specie [But in relation to the generative power, they do not differ by species]. Et sic habent unum effectum secundum speciem [And thus they have one species of effect].
IOW, the generative power is still the generative power and its act qua generative is still one in species as specified by the specific effect of the generative power as generative, namely to generate new members of the species, just like in animals. There is another specification in relation to reason, but that specification does not re-write, over-write, replace, or change the meaning of the natural generative order (shared with animals) any more than it overrides its natural effect (generation of offspring).
Anyway, fornication and rape are indeed properly human (moral) acts, it's just that they are morally evil. If they weren't properly human acts, then they couldn't properly be the objects of moral censure and punishment. (Maybe I'm missing something, but you seem quite confused on this point.)
In most people, the defect is that we take pleasure in eating, drinking, and sex in the wrong way because we do not enter into the pleasure of them primarily for love of God. The advice above from St. John of the Cross (we should renounce all sense pleasures that are not purely for the honour and glory of God) should be qualified and then taken to address, in the first instance, the motive driving our taking pleasures, and thence secondarily to the amount of the pleasures we take. Qualified by this: “purely” should not be read as restrictively as it might otherwise seem. A man ought to take pleasure in the good uses of good things done for love of God: he should not, for example, undertake marital relations in some strange way to be painful to himself, for part of the good of such relations is that he enters into the act so as to allow his wife to please him (just as he intends to please her): he would be defeating the model of goodness God designed into the act to intend it be painful. A better way of phrasing it would be to clarify that the perfect man enters into the pleasurable act foundationally for the love of God, and enters into the very pleasure itself ALSO primarily for the love of God: he desires the pleasure itself wholly because God desires it for him, and this so constraints his desire so that not only would he not DO the act if it were against God’s will, but also he would not desire the pleasure if God did not intend the pleasure to accompany the act.
ReplyDeleteWe see those on the way to sanctity voluntarily taking on ascetical deprivations of pleasurable things, and they (eventually) earnestly desire to take on still more such practices out of devotion to God – often such desires to take on painful chastisements (and to avoid anything pleasurable) runs to excess, and they are restrained from them by obedience to superiors: they sometimes feel a pain of soul in being requried to accept pleasurable activities, or to cease a chastisement. But in those whose sanctity has achieved still higher heights, they cease to even desire to avoid those pleasures God deigns to send, prefering instead God’s will as manifested in the moment and the circumstances, and delighting primarily the pleasure because God wills it, so that desire controls all the other desires, but not so that they don’t actually have physical pleasure. In this sense, the act is done purely for God’s honor and glory. It DOES NOT refer to taking on acts that provide pleasure ONLY when God’s honor is the only good served by the act. And it does not then limit the goods to be enjoyed as to amount or intensity merely as such.
Most of us are not near that level of sanctity: to the extent that a person rarely has voluntarily taken on ANY chastisement of the senses, and still less have they ever approached the state where they would prefer to avoid (lawful) pleasures and take on even more ascetical works, to that extent the person can be pretty sure that they are not even in shouting range of the kind of virtue that takes on pleasures purely for the honor and glory of God. But that intermediate state is instrumental, it does not define the very meaning of the goods of human life. And even in those who are still a long way from holiness, the corrective of desire in the context of a good which they are properly required to participate in (such as a social celebration) is to make the effort to formally intend the enjoyment primarily for God’s sake, and while recognizing that their motives are often mixed, ALSO intend (and pray for) a purification of their will so that they can learn to more properly will the good for God’s honor and glory purely. It is not (in such cases) right to pass up the social good because they are aware their enjoyment will (most probably) be with mixed motives. But such a qualifiedly good intention does require a conscious intent to enter into the act in the proper way – i.e. under due reason, in due moderation, etc.
"We do not enter into the pleasure of them primarily for love of God".
DeleteAnd we shouldn't.
We should always try to please God, but I assert that God is pleased when people are happy, other things equal. If not, why would he have given us the capacity for happiness and such a strong drive towards it?
Even if someone does not have pleasing God as a motive, God can still be pleased by what he does. (I differ from many Calvinists on this.) Otherwise, almost nothing of what we do would please God, even if we were to obey His law completely.
Eric, maybe you are speaking from a Christian but non-Catholic tradition. In Catholic teaching, all acts of every possible sort should be entered into primarily for the love of God as their predominant but general motive, with a more particular (and more proximate) end layered in, such that, e.g. I eat salad right now because that's pleasing to God on account of its nutrition, its pleasing taste, and its participation in a convivial family gathering. The lower-order goods mentioned should be desired also primarily because those particular goods, right now, are God's intention for the given circumstance. Often, one need not consciously advert to all of those ends specifically: once one has the habit of that kind of action with that kind of motive, the individual actions take on the general and habitual character without an active and thoughtful direction of them. But one cannot arrive at such a condition without first doing the actions WITH the conscious intent many times.
DeleteThe person who has, however, formed a habit of acting for a specific pleasure (such as for good tasting food) in a way that is not only not consciously directed toward God but is actively sought even in contradiction to God's intent (by seeking it in excess, or at the wrong times, or under the wrong circumstances, with a motive that sets another good (pleasure) above or before God) will not have a good or even neutral character to his eating even at those times when he is actually eating a good amount and kind of food at the right times: his habitual intention to seek food for a FINAL end other than God will continue to characterize his eating the right thing at the right time - he is still eating for some other final end than God.
Most of us are prey to temptations toward putting other goods than God as our final end, and if we fight those temptations we won't normally form a habitual attachment to lesser goods as our final end. But even if we don't acquire a vice (as a habitual setting) with respect to some particular matter, we still (most of us) fail often in our actions as to entering into the action with the love of God as our primary end, with the particular good of the particular act willed primarily because God intends it, and not primarily because it is pleasing to our senses simply. The best medicine to this failing, I think, is to regularly consciously attend to the conditions for which God does intend we receive pleasure (as from food, e.g.) and to consciously will to enter into the act and its pleasure for God's sake. Eventually, the habit will take over.
Other things equal, I suppose God is also pleased when, say, a goat is happy. And I suppose then, other things equal, that he is displeased when a goat is unhappy. The main question then becomes: What exactly does "other things equal" mean?
DeleteOr, what exactly does it mean to say that the man is "happy"? Since pleasure is not the final end of man, God won't be pleased merely by our having more pleasure. He will be pleased, rather, when we enter into pleasure at the right time, in the right conditions, and in the right way, i.e. by putting pleasure in its proper (subordinate) position to love of God.
Delete"e.g. I eat salad right now because that's pleasing to God on account of its nutrition, its pleasing taste, and its participation in a convivial family gathering."
DeleteLet's focus on the pleasing taste. Is it really wrong to directly enjoy the pleasing taste, rather than do it just to please God? I think that's backwards. God clearly designed us to enjoy the pleasing taste directly. To try to thwart that and replace it with a religious motive is unnatural and even impious, paradoxically.
I don't know which tradition I am expressing here. There is certainly an ascetic strain in Calvinism which says that pleasure and happiness are not good in themselves and are best avoided lest they distract from continual worship of God, even to extent of hating beauty in art and music. And many people say we should expect life on earth to be miserable and we should hope for happiness only in the afterlife, though among Protestants I've never seen anybody lead their life as if they believed what they say.
David: "Other things equal, I suppose God is also pleased when, say, a goat is happy." I'm not so sure about goats; did God design them to be happy?
DeleteAs for "other things equal", I mean if we keep everything else the same in a person's life, but we could take away their happiness in something. For example, they would eat the same amount of ice cream as otherwise, but we take away their pleasure in eating it. Clinical depression is somewhat like that; people lose their happiness in doing things they used to enjoy.
In fact, depression might be a good situation to look at. The depressed person no longer enjoys singing hymns, for example; he sings out of pure duty. If he can still manage to bring himself to sing the hymns, is that better than if he partly did it for enjoyment?
DeletePleasure is also not a proximate end of man (or even of a goat), is it? We have to put pleasure in a proper subordinate position to both ultimate and proximate ends (again, just like a goat does, instinctively). Or did I miss the point of Ed's post here? If I fail to take (moderate) pleasure as my (proximate) end, then sadly I'm a (vicious) boor?
Delete"As for "other things equal", I mean if we keep everything else the same in a person's life, but we could take away their happiness in something."
DeleteTake someone abusing a child. Now take away whatever happiness or pleasure they are deriving from abusing that child. What a shame? Is God more pleased when a happy person abuses a child than when a depressed person abuses a child?
How can you be confident that God made man to enjoy pleasure, but be unsure if God made goats to enjoy pleasure??
Is it really wrong to directly enjoy the pleasing taste, rather than do it just to please God? I think that's backwards. God clearly designed us to enjoy the pleasing taste directly. To try to thwart that and replace it with a religious motive is unnatural and even impious, paradoxically.
DeleteI think you are looking at it turned inside out. My point is not that we should do the act "just to please God" and NOT do it for pleasure. That's not the right approach. Rather, we should want the pleasure that ordinarily attends pleasurable acts primarily in subordination to God's will, and secondarily because the pleasure is itself satisfying to the senses or emotions. The rectified man knows and is happy with the fact that naturally good acts (such as eating nutritious food) typically also have natural pleasures that attend them, and knows that God made it so as part of a harmonious natural order. So he enters into the act first so as to please God and follow His will, and secondarily as willing to receive from God's will - because it is God's will - such pleasure as attends eating such food. He wants the pleasure because God wants him to have the pleasure. So, he does indeed want the pleasure.
If God were to intercede and make good food no longer taste pleasing for a time, he would accept this with equanimity as "this is God's will for me at this time". All the same, he would know that such a condition is unnatural - it is not conformed to the normal order designed by God wherein food is desirable for taste as well as for nutrition - and that ultimately it will be resolved (if not earlier, then at the final end when we receive our resurrected bodies). Since he originally desired the pleasure primarily because it was God's will that he receive pleasure, when it is no longer attached to eating, the loss does not overturn his basic joy in serving God's will.
So, we don't "replace" the natural motive for eating the food with a "religious" motive. We subordinate the natural motive to the supernatural motive, which is charity. St. Paul says that God acts in you both to will and to do: this is a description of the man in whom charity abounds - ALL his acts are acts of love of God, including the perfectly normal ones (like brushing your teeth and hanging up clothes, because the supernatural action of Christ's grace enfolds the natural, making the whole life serve the higher order. Grace perfects nature, it does not replace nature.
David McPike said "Take someone abusing a child. Now take away whatever happiness or pleasure they are deriving from abusing that child. What a shame? Is God more pleased when a happy person abuses a child than when a depressed person abuses a child?"
DeleteThis is indeed a tough problem, and it does fit my "other things equal", which I should modify. The modification would be for whether a sinful act creates pleasure. In law-and-economics, my field, this is a well-known problem. There, the standard example is the pleaure a rapist derives from his crime. In doing public-policy calculations, should we count that pleasure as a good? In the standard method of economics, we would, but usually we would modify the standard method and say, "Here, let us assume we do not wish to include the utility of the rapist from his act," not arguing for excluding it, but simply thinking the reader will agree to exclude it.
Here, we are thinking precisely about whether to exclude sinful pleasure, and not just because it is a bad incentive but for some deeper reason. I can't think of a satisfactory deeper reason right off. What do you think?
Here's a try. It is fitting, let us assume, for a sinful act to be punished. Thus, if the sinful act produces reward, it is unfitting. Hence, just as pain is ordinarily bad but is good for the criminal, so pleasure is ordiniarly good but is bad for the criminal. And this applies to petty sins too like getting pleasure from cruel teasing of a little brother.
David McPike said, "How can you be confident that God made man to enjoy pleasure, but be unsure if God made goats to enjoy pleasure??"
DeleteMan is different for two reasons. First, introspection and language tells us what makes him happy and what he feels, whereas we don't know with a goat or an ameba. Second, we know from the Bible and probably natural reason that God created Man as the culmination of Creation, and everything else is to serve him. The rest of creation has value in itself too, I think, but it gets hazier.
"All the same, he would know that such a condition is unnatural - it is not conformed to the normal order designed by God wherein food is desirable for taste as well as for nutrition - and that ultimately it will be resolved (if not earlier, then at the final end when we receive our resurrected bodies)."
DeleteHow does he know this?? Certainly with respect to the appetite for sexual (or 'venereal' for those who like archaic words) pleasure, our Lord says that in the resurrection we shall be as angels (i.e., "non-venereal")...
"Since he originally desired the pleasure primarily because it was God's will that he receive pleasure, when it is no longer attached to eating, the loss does not overturn his basic joy in serving God's will."
But the question is, is his joy in God's will complete? And if it is, why should his natural appetite for, say, the pleasures of eating ice cream even count for him as a loss?
And I think it's interesting to note here that particular sense appetites for, say, Scotch or foie gras or caviar or Flaming Hot Cool Ranch Doritos, are all contingent and elicited appetites, that don't even exist except as a desire for repetition of a contingent past experience.
So the general underlying issue, it seems to me, is to avoid conflating a general disposition towards an experience of pleasure, as the fitting fruition of a naturally fulfilling act, with a particular disposition towards particular experiences of pleasure as the fitting but contingent fruit of natural but contingent and not-ultimate and ultimately optional acts. If some pleasurable act bears no essential relation our ultimate end, then its omission and/or the foregoing of the pleasure associated with it should not be considered vicious, as far as I can see.
Tony said , "If God were to intercede and make good food no longer taste pleasing for a time, he would accept this with equanimity as "this is God's will for me at this time". All the same, he would know that such a condition is unnatural - it is not conformed to the normal order designed by God wherein food is desirable for taste as well as for nutrition - and that ultimately it will be resolved (if not earlier, then at the final end when we receive our resurrected bodies)."
DeleteAt this point it may just be semantics that separates us. I am saying that a man should take pleasure in a steak because it has pleasing sensations, and that is his primary motivation, and God intended him to be pleased by it. You are saying, I think, that a man should take pleasure in a steak because God wants him to, and you accord primacy to the motive of pleasing God, whether that is conscious or not.
I meant to write above:
Delete"But the question is, is his joy in God's will complete? And if it is, why should non-fulfillment of his natural appetite for, say, the pleasures of eating ice cream even count for him as a loss?
But the question is, is his joy in God's will complete? And if it is, why should non-fulfillment of his natural appetite for, say, the pleasures of eating ice cream even count for him as a loss?
DeleteDavid, I am not sure, but I think you are brushing up against the difference between the kind of life we live here in this world, and the kind of enjoyment we will have in heaven. In this life, there are many constraints to our joy from the very nature of our state which is both temporal and physically limited: we cannot, at one and the same time, enjoy a steak and enjoy swimming. We cannot both enjoy resting after strenuous exercise and enjoy the strenuous exercise, at the same time. And especially, of every individual thing that brings enjoyment in this life, we know that perforce our needs will make that enjoyment fleeting, giving way to some need or other, sometimes giving way to some new trouble or pain, and also leaving room for the possibility that temptation comes and we might fail, leaving us departed from God's good grace, which possibility colors our joy.
In heaven, though we do not know the details of how this will work, we expect that these limits no longer apply: certainly, the resurrected body will not be subject to the physical constraints that we have now; there will be no accession of troubles and painful trials; and no temptation can take away our attention from God whom we will see directly as the center of all possible joy and goodness, so that we have no concern for losing our ongoing enjoyment.
Even a saint in this life, having as perfectly as he may the peace of a holy soul in tune with God's will, does not have the complete joy of heaven. So, the kind of joy he experiences in suffering well some trial or burden, at peace with the knowledge that this burden is God's will for him at this time, is a constrained kind of joy, it is a joy of sorts under the known condition that the trouble will not be permanent, that it will be resolved into some better condition. No man can be perfectly content to be in pain. He can be content to bear the pain for God's sake insofar as it IS God's will for this time; it would be contrary to the nature of a living thing to be wholly content with a permanent state that harbors what is harmful to it by nature, (and this is what the pain mechanism is for).
why should non-fulfillment of his natural appetite for, say, the pleasures of eating ice cream even count for him as a loss?
I agree: the specifics of the particular food, ice cream, are not something that a person naturally must pine for if he doesn't have ice cream. (And he must be without ice cream while he is eating something else, anyway.) But that wasn't what my example was about: if God withdrew all good taste from all food for a person, he necessarily would feel a lack, though he might accept this state as God's will.
Most of what you say here isn't really debatable (to my mind), so it's just the last sentence I'll comment on: "if God withdrew all good taste from all food for a person, he necessarily would feel a lack, though he might accept this state as God's will." I would just add the extreme possibility, he might not just accept, he might rejoice in this state as his sharing in the cross of Christ, and so he might not pine for what he has lost even in the case you mention, where he certainly knows/feels a lack/loss but it counts for him as gain. Such a case would be one of extraordinary grace, not of vice.
DeleteEric: "In doing public-policy calculations, should we count that pleasure [rape pleasure] as a good?"
DeleteSigh. Really? "Public-policy calculations"? "In doing"? "Doing"? The set of obliviously pretentious notions so blandly proposed here as a standard question in law-and-economics are so asinine... I don't know what else to say. (Academic philosophers too, of course, too frequently pose, in a pose of pretentious seriousness, mind-breakingly stupid questions.)
" It is fitting, let us assume, for a sinful act to be punished."
Indeed.
"Thus, if the sinful act produces reward, it is unfitting."
Indeed.
"Hence, just as pain is ordinarily bad but is good for the criminal, so pleasure is ordiniarly good but is bad for the criminal."
But whence the "ordinarily's" here? What is pain is ordinarily (rather: naturally) good because it protects people (and goats) because it signifies to them what is harmful ("ow, hot!"), and pleasure is also ordinarily good because it signifies to them what is fulfilling? But for moral beings, the natural goodness of pain and pleasure must be systematically (re)evaluated and understood in the light of reason's grasp of our ends and what serves those ends. That is, pleasure and pain must be integrated into an understanding of what is just and systematically evaluated as good or bad accordingly.
"Man is different for two reasons. First, introspection and language tells us what makes him happy and what he feels, whereas we don't know with a goat or an ameba."
DeleteIntrospection no more tells us what makes man happy and what he feels, than it teaches us how to use language. And language doesn't tell us anything; we use language to tell each other things (sometimes true things, sometimes false things, sometimes plain nonsense). We know goats feel pleasure and pain just as clearly and certainly as we know that human beings do because the criteria for recognizing pleasure and pain are public, not at all essentially introspective. Stick a fork in a goat's eyeball and watch how it reacts. You won't be asking yourself, "I wonder, is it feeling pain? or perhaps pleasure? or neither? I guess it's a moot point because goats are not created as the pinnacle of creation in God's image and all that."
No.
ReplyDeleteI have never understood the meaning of *natural law* So, I did a search on that and selected *definition of natural law acquinus*. Getting an error message,
ReplyDelete*page could not be found*, was no help. So, I still don't know what this phrase means in any sort of modern lexical application. If the spelling is wrong, someone please advise me and give me the definition, as you know it. Thanks!
It's Aquinas, not Aquinus.
Deletehttp://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/10/whose-nature-which-law.html
DeleteThank you, Kjdtkd. I liked this so much it's a candidate for my Top Ten list; see https://www.rasmusen.org/rasmapedia/index.php?title=Best_Dozen_Articles_I%27ve_Read_in_2023
Delete"The principal thing is the use itself of the necessary means, of the woman who is necessary for the preservation of the species..."
ReplyDeleteAll the 'Theology of the Body' spazzes out there choked when they read this. "That! That's why we needed (still need) a JPII revolution in the whole theology of the Church! The only appropriate relation to a person is love. Persons must never be used as a means for anything!"
No. It doesn't.
ReplyDelete"Food and drink thereby reinforce social bonds, and all the goods that follow from having those bonds. A person who, due to the vice of insensibility, is insufficiently drawn to such pleasures is thereby going to be less fulfilled as a social animal – lonelier, more self-centered, less able to contribute to or benefit from the social orders of which he is a part."
ReplyDeleteI have doubts here. I suspect that the connection between sensibility to the pleasures of food and drink and the benefits of healthy social bonding in the course of eating and drinking is accidental or non-existent. Why shouldn't a healthily social eater/drinker be someone who doesn't really care what they're eating or drinking, someone who is adaptable, whose equanimity and affability are not at the mercy of the circumstance of what food and drink have been served? And maybe the causality, paradoxically, goes the other way: indifference (insensibility) towards food and drink as sources of pleasure might well allow one to take pleasure, from from food and drink in the context of social eating and drinking, without regard to the food and drink as per se causes of pleasure. Someone who is only a pleasant meal companion provided the food is tasty is not in that respect a virtuous person (certainly that's how I view it when my kids are whiny and picky about what they've been given to eat).
The perfect man will indeed take SOME pleasure from the social circumstances even in the case of inferior quality food. And in order to get to perfection, we have to overcome the tendency to place to much value on the good taste of food, and overcoming this requires, learning to make do (and be cheerful) when the food is wretched or even non-existent.
DeleteBut the obverse of this being able to be happy in the face of inferior food is that the perfect man also rightly wants to provide good-tasting and nutritious food when he is the host: this right ordering implies that the good taste is, indeed, properly conformed to serving the higher goods. And while we can indeed serve the highest of all goods (God, in charity) even when the food is wretched, man's properly fulfilled state includes the lower faculties satisfied also: nutritious food presented in good taste and harmonious order in a convivial group satisfies the senses as well as the mind, which thereby observes the orderliness of the created order in which God made the senses to assist and serve the mind and will. So it would be a positive defect in virtue if a host were to be indifferent to the taste and harmony of the foods as long as they were nutritious, even if he or she knew that all present would, in charity, make the best of whatever is served.
The same goes for making do with insufficient food served: a virtuous man does not complain, and accepts the lack - at that time. But this condition cannot be borne continuously without redress: health requires adequate food supply, and if there is food that CAN be had, that same virtuous man should take steps to get enough somehow even if his host continues to serve too little.
If there is simply not enough food to be had, then virtue requires accepting this and being willing to simply doing without and even dying of starvation as God's will for those conditions. And a person can continue to do this in charity, thereby serving the highest good. But the fact that we know without doubt that generally we should sustain the body when possible (even though charity can be served without such), highlights the fact that generally we seek instead (when possible) to serve the all of the faculties of the body and not merely sustain it, but to make it thrive. Thriving implies not mere bare sustenance, but fulsome enjoyment of the faculties, including the senses.
Tony said, "in order to get to perfection, we have to overcome the tendency to place to much value on the good taste of food, and overcoming this requires, learning to make do (and be cheerful) when the food is wretched or even non-existent."
DeleteI agree. A problem with pleasure, the Stoic's problem, is that you miss it when it's not there. That is true of all happiness, even the happiness of feeling God's grace, though in Heaven we won't be deprived of that. Here, though, we are, sometimes. But we should be content. Contentment is an underrated virtue, a very quiet one.
I was just thinking of this earlier today. Yesterday we bought a puppy, Sophie, a golden-retriever/poodle cross. She has a sweet nature. She loves to play with a human or other puppy, but she sits looked contented in her cage when she's not able to play, without whimpering or barking or scratching the cage, just waiting.
'the perfect man also rightly wants to provide good-tasting and nutritious food when he is the host: this right ordering implies that the good taste is, indeed, properly conformed to serving the higher goods."
DeleteIt may be so conformed, but only contingently so. If the perfect man is a joyful ascetic hosting a party of joyful fellow ascetics who all take pleasure in being indifferent to the wretchedness of the food they are served, then he would be rather a boor if he were to insist on the natural necessity of their experiencing and enjoying the pleasure of surf and turf with fine wine followed by fancy pastries and coffee served, of course, with congenial refinement on fine china with fancy silverware -- because that's just what real virtuous men do?
If the perfect man is a joyful ascetic hosting a party of joyful fellow ascetics who all take pleasure in being indifferent to the wretchedness of the food they are served, then he would be rather a boor if he were to insist on the natural necessity of their experiencing and enjoying the pleasure of surf and turf with fine wine
DeleteIf the group of ascetics were together precisely to celebrate some excellent thing - like a wedding - they they all of them should want to set aside the ascetic practices (which are good instrumentally and not per se) and celebrate precisely with those kinds of foods and drinks that signify and are conformed to the joy of the event. They should want - and the host should provide - good food and drink because the virtuous action of virtuous men would mean eating and drinking good tasting food and drink. Cf. the wedding feast at Cana.
If they all get together to practice ascetism TOGETHER, then of course the virtuous host will meet the occasion with appropriately ascetical food.
Well what if it wasn't just some wedding, but they were hosting our Lord Jesus Christ himself? Would it be imperative to be busy about ensuring the food and drinks were good enough; or would it be the better part to neglect all that and just sit at the feet of our Lord?
DeleteIn any case, the kind of thing you refer to seems to me more about social virtue, pertaining to justice, accommodating one's actions to what is owed to others, and not anything to do with temperance, i.e., moral virtues or vices regulating the sense appetites, per se.
In this case the social virtue of justice interacts with the matter of the virtue of temperance so as to mold the what and how much to eat into a context that covers more than the individual alone. The interaction affects the output of both virtues.
DeleteWell what if it wasn't just some wedding, but they were hosting our Lord Jesus Christ himself? Would it be imperative to be busy about ensuring the food and drinks were good enough; or would it be the better part to neglect all that and just sit at the feet of our Lord?
Nothing precludes that Martha rightly devote herself to putting the food out this time around, while Mary sits at Jesus' feet, and that Mary do the food the next time while Martha sits at his feet, both fulfilling full virtue in both occasions. Jesus chides Martha not for the doing, but for the attitude.
The Gospels recount not one instance where Jesus upbraids someone who is hosting him for putting out food that is too fine, but it does recount an instance where Jesus upbraids someone for complaining about using fine, costly stuff on Jesus. It is clear that he considers the circumstances to weigh on whether one should use fine, costly goods or not.
"In this case the social virtue of justice interacts with the matter of the virtue of temperance so as to mold the what and how much to eat into a context that covers more than the individual alone. The interaction affects the output of both virtues."
DeleteWell certainly that was Ed's original contention, but then I would reiterate my original doubt about that: I don't see that there is any genuine causal interaction between virtues here such that justice with respect to menu selection directed towards reinforcing social bonds (?!) is actually causally molded (facilitated?) by the virtue of temperance as pertaining the right degree of appetite for gustatory pleasure. The connection just seems far-fetched and the objections I've raised to it still seem reasonable.
Part of the problem is Aristotle's point about Milo the wrestler: what counts as moderation varies from person to person; what Milo eats is fine for him, but it would be too much for you or me. Similarly, what is important in establishing healthy social bonds might (this is still far-fetched I think) have something to do with moderation in Milo's appetites for gustatory pleasure -- including avoiding being insufficiently moved by the desire for gustatory pleasure (really? okay! maybe his only available social set are a bunch of snobbish foodies? or a group of manly dudes who only associate with fellow beer connoisseurs?) -- but there are many other (literally) overwhelmingly more important factors in the establishment of healthy social bonds, such that the vice of insensibility fades to insignificance and it would be impossible to ever really pinpoint that a really important factor in this guy's being lonely and disconnected is the fact that he is insufficiently concerned about how his food and drink taste.
I wonder if you or Ed have in mind any actual examples where you think the vice of insensibility is actually damaging someone's social life? It would be interesting to hear about a concrete case where you think that this 'virtual' interaction is actually what is happening.
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, but his advice was just, when someone makes you welcome, "eat whatever is set before you" (Luke 10:8) -- I think he implies, take no concern for how tasty it is or whether it matches any of your preconceived standards about 'good' food and drink. (Also the lesson of the widow's mite would surely apply here.) And he turned water to wine, but he also turned barley loaves and fishes into... more barley loaves and fishes -- no baba ghanoush, no goat stew; just barley loaves and fishes. Not very impressive, from a culinary standpoint.
Romans 14:
Delete"1 Find room among you for a man of over-delicate conscience, without arguing about his scruples.[1] 2 Another man can, in conscience, eat what he will; one who is scrupulous must be content with vegetable fare.[2] 3 Let not the first, over his meat, mock at him who does not eat it, or the second, while he abstains, pass judgement on him who eats it. God, after all, has found room for him. 4 Who art thou, to pass judgement on the servant of another? Whether he keeps his feet or falls,[3] concerns none but his master. And keep his feet he will; God is well able to give him a sure footing. 5 One man makes a distinction between this day and that; another regards all days alike; let either rest fully content in his own opinion.[4] 6 He who observes the day, observes it in the Lord’s honour. Just so, he who eats does so in the Lord’s honour; he gives thanks to God for it; and he who abstains from eating abstains in the Lord’s honour, and he too thanks God.
...
13 Let us cease, then, to lay down rules for one another, and make this rule for ourselves instead, not to trip up or entangle a brother’s conscience.
14 This is my assurance, this is what my conscience tells me in the name of our Lord Jesus, that there is nothing which is unclean in itself; it is only when a man believes a thing to be unclean that it becomes unclean for him.[6] 15 And if thy brother’s peace of mind is disturbed over food, it is because thou art neglecting to follow the rule of charity. Here is a soul for which Christ died; it is not for thee to bring it to perdition with the food thou eatest. 16 We must not allow that which is a good thing for us to be brought into disrepute.[7] 17 The kingdom of God is not a matter of eating or drinking this or that; it means rightness of heart, finding our peace and our joy in the Holy Spirit."
I have a copy of Prummer's Moral Theology, Moral Theology by Jone., Moral Theology, in 2 Vols by McHugh and Callan, Theologia Moralis in 2 Vols by Kohl, Handbook of Moral Theology in 5 vols by Koch and Preuss, and Principes de Moral in 2 vols by Lottin to name just a few. And no, I don't care to explain.
ReplyDeleteIf contraception & masturbation are sin because they deter a person from reproducing, why is celibacy not a sin?
ReplyDeleteSin means "missing the mark". They are sin because they are "cheating" your way to celibacy or chaste marriage hood rather than making a sacrificial effort.
DeleteBecause when celibate, you're giving up a good
ReplyDeleteFeser says, "A person who, due to the vice of insensibility, is insufficiently drawn to such pleasures is thereby going to be less fulfilled as a social animal – lonelier, more self-centered, less able to contribute to or benefit from the social orders of which he is a part." If a person is convivial during a meal but not enjoying it with the zest of his counterparts, how is he lonelier, more self centered and less able to contribute to or benefit from the social orders of which he is a part.
ReplyDeleteHow does a person overcome the vice of insensibility.
ReplyDeleteOrdinarily, just by loosening up (not completely; while still keeping restraint). As a boy, I thought laughing at jokes was undignified; now, I try not to restrain laughter, so as to do my bit in being a good audience.
DeleteSome people cannot feel some pleasures and joys for physiological or other involuntary reasons, like a deaf man not enjoying music. They are insensible, and that's bad and maybe sinful even (?), but there's nothing they can do about it.
Since "Marital happiness, and the good of the social order that depends on it, require avoiding that vice" [insensibility] what advice can we give to couples whose marriage is affected by it.
ReplyDeleteThis may be a little off-topic. Please forgive me. If insensibility is a vice, then so are ignorance,arrogance and narcissism, as I have asserted in a paper that may, or not, be posted on another blog. Part of my thinking on the problem of consciousness is it requires us to pay attention...responsively. All of the aforementioned attitudes hold no such requirement. Like it or not, they are among Davidson's propositional attitudes: self-centered and unresponsive towards all but the bearer.
ReplyDeleteLet the bearer beware...
I try harder to think better.
'Sin' means different things to different people. In Spanish, it means, simply, *without*. O, sin duda, como nada, which is double negative anywhere else. Latin-based language is confusing, isn't it? Ya, lo creo que si!!!
ReplyDeleteWas insensibility really the term you wanted to use for this discussion? I have considered it, in context, and Rasmussen's comment brought it forth that maybe the better word would be insensitivity? I think we can agree that ignorant, arrogant people are likely to also be insensitive. If that is held to be sinful, sobeit.
ReplyDeletePleasure was OK, until religion proclaimed it not. Sure, go forth and multiply was good. Enjoyment of the act leading to multiplication was not. Puritanism likely codified this edict. My view? You can't have it one way without having it both. Our faculty of consciousness can work against us when we are confronted by interests, preferences and motives. We may become insensible (without intention), or, insensitive, because of emotional overload, which I assert accompanies complexity. Stuart Kaufman approached this, years ago. Take this as you may. I mostly bystand. Sub specie, you see.
ReplyDelete