Tuesday, September 8, 2026

Craig on finitism and presentism

The kalām cosmological argument for God’s existence holds that the universe must have had a beginning.  (Not all versions of the cosmological argument make this claim.  For example, the versions I defend in my book Five Proofs of the Existence of God do not make it.)  William Lane Craig’s influential presentation of the argument defends the claim in several ways, one of which is by arguing that a beginningless universe would amount to an actual infinite, and that an actual infinite is impossible.  That judgment, in turn, is supported by appeal to examples like the Hilbert’s Hotel thought experiment, in which the idea of a hotel with an actually infinite number of rooms and guests yields a variety of bizarre consequences.

In a pair of posts from a decade ago (here and here), I explained why I don’t find this particular argument compelling.  For one thing, while the Hilbert’s Hotel scenario is certainly weird, it isn’t clear that it entails any logical contradiction.  And without that, the notion of an actual infinite has not strictly been reduced to absurdity.  The proponent of actual infinites can simply bite the bullet and hold that consequences that are oddball but nevertheless possible are only to be expected from actually infinite collections.

For another thing, it isn’t clear that a beginningless universe really does entail an actual infinite.  The idea behind Craig’s argument is that if the universe had no beginning, then an infinite series of moments (or days or years or whatever) has already passed.  This, it is claimed, amounts to an actually infinitely large collection.  But Craig is a presentist, as am I.  That is to say, we take the view that where time is concerned, only the present moment exists, which entails that past and future moments do not exist.  But if past moments do not exist, then we do not have an actual infinite.  In particular, what exists is just the present moment, rather than the present moment together with an infinite collection of past moments.  Given Craig’s own views about the nature of time, then, it is not open to him to argue against a beginningless universe on the basis of the impossibility of an actual infinite.

Others have presented similar objections, and in the second of the posts linked to above I explained why I don’t think Craig’s replies to them succeed.  But recently Craig published Volume IIb of his Systematic Philosophical Theology, devoted to topics in natural theology and Trinitarian theology.  It includes an updated treatment of the kalām cosmological argument, which revisits the issues just summarized.  Unfortunately, Craig has still not adequately addressed the problems, or so it seems to me.

Metaphysical modality

Consider first the question of how to establish that an actual infinite is impossible.  As those familiar with the debate over the kalām argument know, an actual infinite is to be contrasted with a potential infinite.  A potentially infinite collection is one that is only finitely large, but which might be added to without limit.  An actually infinite collection is one that already is infinitely large.  In volume IIb of Systematic Philosophical Theology, Craig says that whether such a thing could exist is not a matter of logical possibility or impossibility, but rather of metaphysical possibility or impossibility.  And he says that:

Since metaphysical modality is so much woollier a notion than strict logical modality, there are not the sort of clean, decisive markers of what is possible or impossible that consistency in first order logic affords for strict logical modality.  Arguments for metaphysical possibility or impossibility typically rely upon intuitions and conceivability arguments, which are obviously much less certain guides than strict logical consistency or inconsistency… [A]rguments for the metaphysical impossibility of some state of affairs will be much more subjective than arguments concerning strict logical impossibility. (p. 46)

This is doubly problematic.  On the one hand, it is a pretty damning concession, which only reinforces doubts about how much can be established via thought experiments like the Hilbert’s Hotel scenario.  On the other hand, while I’m skeptical about establishing the impossibility of a beginningless universe through arguments about metaphysical modality, the general idea of metaphysical modality is in my view not at all as woolly as Craig supposes.  Like many other contemporary analytic philosophers, he approaches the issue in a quasi-rationalist way, whereas the correct approach (I would argue) is Aristotelian.  In particular, contemporary analytic philosophers tend to start with intuitions and thought experiments; deduce from these what is possible or impossible for a thing; and then from that, in turn, determine the essence or nature of the thing.  From an Aristotelian point of view, this gets things backwards.  The right way to proceed is first to determine the nature or essence of a thing by observing how it behaves.  From this we can determine what is possible or impossible for it, and that in turn tethers any thought experiments we might entertain.  It is only if we mistakenly begin instead with intuitions and thought experiments that the notion of metaphysical modality comes to seem woolly.  (I say a lot more about this set of issues in Scholastic Metaphysics.)

In any event, while he does suggest that there may be aspects of the Hilbert’s Hotel thought experiment that involve mathematical contradictions (p. 53), he does not put much emphasis on that, relying instead on how “mind-boggling” and “wildly counterintuitive” the scenario is given the “metaphysical intuitions” many people share (p. 49).  This is pretty weak sauce.  One might as well counter that the idea that there might be some moment of time before which there was no preceding moment is itself “mind-boggling” and “wildly counterintuitive,” so that we ought to affirm that the universe had no beginning.  The point is not that this would be a good argument, but only that it isn’t obviously any worse than Craig’s own appeal to intuition. 

In response to Graham Oppy’s suggestion that the advocate of a beginningless universe could simply bite the bullet and accept the strange consequences that follow from an actual infinite, Craig objects that this “does nothing to prove that the envisioned situations are not absurd” but merely notes what we have to accept if there could be actual infinites (p. 52).  That’s true, but it misses the point.  Craig is the one making the bold assertion that an actual infinite is impossible, and drawing momentous and controversial conclusions from this assertion.  The burden of proof is on him to show that such a thing really is impossible, not on Oppy to show that it isn’t.

Simultaneous actual infinites

Following Alexander Pruss, Craig draws a distinction between full finitism and causal finitism (p. 47).  Full finitism denies the possibility of actual infinites of any kind.  Causal finitism, more modestly, denies only that there could be an actually infinite sequence of causally connected objects or events.  Craig’s approach has been to defend the kalām cosmological argument by appealing to full finitism, but Pruss suggests that a better course is to appeal to causal finitism.

For present purposes, I put to one side the questions of whether causal finitism is true and can successfully be deployed to rule out a beginningless universe, because Craig continues to defend the full finitist approach.  Here is where presentism poses a difficulty for him.  As Pruss notes, if the full finitist accepts the presentist view that only the present moment exists, then the only actual infinites he can rule out are infinitely large collections of things existing simultaneously at the present moment.  But that is not what the hypothesis of a beginningless universe entails.  It posits an infinite series of past moments, but these moments do not exist at present.  The present moment alone, and not an infinite collection of moments, is what now exists.  Thus does Pruss recommend appealing to causal finitism rather than full finitism in order to rule out a beginningless universe.

Craig thinks this is unnecessary.  To be sure, he acknowledges that:

[I]t has been said that on presentism, past events no more exist than future events, so that the number of past events is no greater than the number of future events, even if the series of past events is beginningless.  That is true. (p. 59)

He notes that Aristotle and Aquinas were presentists, and for that reason they concluded that the series of past events is not an actual infinite, even if it had no beginning (p. 71).  But he thinks they were mistaken to draw that inference.  He writes:

Now we may take it as a datum that the presentist can accurately count things that have existed but no longer exist.  He knows, for example, how many US Presidents there have been, what day of the month it is, how many shots Oswald squeezed off, and so forth.  He knows how old his children are and can reckon how many billions of years have elapsed since the Big Bang.  The non-existence of such things or events is no hindrance to their being enumerated.  (p. 72)

But there are two problems with this.  First, if it is meant to support the claim that a beginningless series of past events amounts to an actual infinite, then it is a non sequitur.  We can enumerate the superheroes that appear in the Marvel movies, but that doesn’t entail that we’ve enumerated a collection of actual things, because those characters are not actual but fictional.  Similarly, the fact that we can enumerate past events does not entail that what we are enumerating is a collection of actual things (whether finitely or infinitely large).  On the contrary, we are enumerating things that used to be actual but no longer are.

The second problem is this.  In the Hilbert’s Hotel paradox, it seems that what is doing the work is the supposition that there are, simultaneously, an infinite number of rooms and an infinite number of guests.  That’s what generates the oddball consequences.  These consequences would not follow if we imagined instead that at any particular moment, there were only finitely many rooms or guests (with infinity entering the picture only with respect to the duration of the hotel’s existence, or with the number of guests who have successively arrived and checked out over the course of the past). 

By Craig’s own admission, though, a beginningless universe doesn’t entail an actually infinite collection of simultaneously existing objects or events.  So, while Craig is correct to hold that we can enumerate things that no longer exist, it is not clear how that is relevant to the point at issue, even if we were to concede that the series of past events amounts to an actual infinite of some kind.  The Hilbert’s Hotel paradox shows at most only that an actually infinite collection of simultaneously existing things is problematic (if it really shows even that).  It does not show that an actually infinite collection of no longer existing things is problematic.  Again, Craig’s argument appears to be a non sequitur.

I conclude that Craig has not solved the problems facing his version of the kalām cosmological argument that I raised in those articles from a decade ago.  (For interested readers, I discuss presentism and the philosophy of time more generally at length in Aristotle’s Revenge, and in most of the posts listed below.)

Related reading:

A difficulty for Craig’s kalām cosmological argument?

Yeah, but is it actually actually infinite?

Review of Craig’s God Over All

Craig, conventionalism, and voluntarism

Vallicella on the truthmaker objection against presentism

Vallicella on existence-entailing relations and presentism

Aristotelians ought to be presentists

More on presentism and truthmakers

Cundy on relativity and the A-theory of time

Craig contra the truthmaker objection to presentism

Presentism and analogical language

Koons on time and relative actuality

128 comments:

  1. Maybe Craig could say this: If an actually infinite amount of moments occurred, the result may be an actual infinite of things existing at the same time. For example, if there are three past attempts to make sandwhiches, the result is three sandwhiches at the same time later. But if there cannot be a result of an actual infinite at the same time, the method that lead to that must have been suspect. That is what Koons says by using a Lewisian patchwork principle.

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  2. How do you reconcile presentism with divine foreknowledge? How does God know the future? Well he cannot know the future by knowing his own nature, since that would entail the future is absolutely necessary as a consequence of the divine nature, compromising the contingency of the future and freedom of creation. God cannot know the future by knowing the actual future, since it does not exist. One may suppose God knows the future by knowing what he intends to bring about. But this too is flawed because "what he intends to bring about" is not an accident within God (analogous to intentions within us). Nor is it identical to the divine nature, since this bring us back to the modal collapse etc. And you yourself have noted that Aquinas argues that God is not really related to his effects.

    It seems the only way out is to say that the future actually exists. This is compatible with both any view on divine causality and human freedom (Thomism, Molinism, or simple foreknowledge e.g. that version defended by Katherin Rogers).

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    1. "One may suppose God knows the future by knowing what he intends to bring about. But this too is flawed because "what he intends to bring about" is not an accident within God (analogous to intentions within us). Nor is it identical to the divine nature, since this bring us back to the modal collapse etc. And you yourself have noted that Aquinas argues that God is not really related to his effects."

      Could He not know the future by knowing the present and also all that is gonna happen? Think of it as the Laplace Demon on steroids.

      Free will do not seems to be a problem if we do not adopt a veeery libertarian free will, it seems to me than most defenders of free will would be okay with predictions.

      I find a so rigid view of divine simplicity problematic, but knowledge of the future does not seems as problematic as any contingent knowledge here.

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    2. God is presumed to be beyond time and to encompass all times as He encompasses all places, and as such, it makes no sense to speak of past and future in relation to God: every moment in time is eternally present to God's knowledge, without any distinction of succession. God does not know that which is future to us qua future, even though it has not yet occurred or received existence within the temporal world: it is one thing to be actual in relation to Divine knowledge, and another to be actual in relation to the temporal world. And God is presumed to know all things by knowing Himself; it would be ridiculous to suppose that the Source, Sustainer, and Encompasser of all things has anything new to learn from creatures.

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    3. "Could He not know the future by knowing the present and also all that is gonna happen? Think of it as the Laplace Demon on steroids."

      Please see my other post. God is presumed to transcend all time just as He is presumed to transcend all place, all times being present to Him at once just as all places are present to Him at once—He encompassing them all. Therefore, it makes no sense to talk about succession and distance in relation to God except as a figure of speech.

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    4. "Free will do not seems to be a problem if we do not adopt a veeery libertarian free will, it seems to me than most defenders of free will would be okay with predictions."

      To know something does not mean to determine that thing, and Divine knowledge is considered to be the cause only of good things, not of evil ones. However, it is an immediate knowledge that is independent of creatures (since, ontologically speaking, in the beginningless beginning there is only God, the Exemplar of all creatures), rather than a mediate anticipatory knowledge of a future that can only be properly spoken of in relation to created beings subject to time, not to God.

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    5. @Anonymous: you've posted some interesting thoughts. But re this of yours: "Please see my other post." It becomes confusing when multiple people post as Anonymous, especially when an interesting OP pulls out many responses. It will be clearer if you can create a handle/screen name so we can distinguish your posts more readily from those of others who post anonymously.

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    6. (I am the first anonymous poster btw). You say: "Could He not know the future by knowing the present and also all that is gonna happen? " But this is not an answer but a statement of the problem.

      What constitutes "all that is gonna happen?" Are these facts about the present? Not unless you are a rigid determinist about the laws of physics. Are they facts about God? No because God has no accidents, and if they were facts about his nature, they would be necessary truths. It seems to me the only sensible answer is that they are facts about the future itself, which entails that the future exists.

      Tom

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    7. @Tom

      Actually, i can see way better now where you are getting at, it is a interesting challenge when we, assuming the thomistic view*, can't ground the future truths on God knowledge, so lets try to advance

      "What constitutes "all that is gonna happen?" Are these facts about the present? Not unless you are a rigid determinist about the laws of physics"

      I did mention Laplace but only as a illustration, i do not think than there is these Laws than determine everything that happena. I agree with Dr. Feser than this is just a poor substitute to the grounding of casuality, order etc made with realism about the universals.

      When picking a more realist view i can't see determinism being much of a problem. From every fact about the present it is the case than i will do X and Y tomorrow(i hope!), but these facts do not determine me at all, they are descriptive only.

      In this way i would say than the tomist could ground "all that is gonna happen".

      *Which i admit i tend to reject, but how to make sense of divine simplicity is something in development, i'am afraid

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    8. Yea, I don't see how God can have perfect knowledge of the future unless the future in some way already exists. Has Ed written about this problem somewhere given that he defends presentism over some form of eternalism?

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    9. "When picking a more realist view i can't see determinism being much of a problem. From every fact about the present it is the case than i will do X and Y tomorrow(i hope!), but these facts do not determine me at all, they are descriptive only."

      I don't see how that sort determinism about the laws of physics wouldn't undermine free will. If you knew the state of the universe after the big bang + the laws of physics, you could work out exactly what you would decide today. Meaning your choices are fixed long before you existed, you have no control over any factor that fixed them, and no alternative exist.

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    10. @Michael

      "If you knew the state of the universe after the big bang + the laws of physics, you could work out exactly what you would decide today. Meaning your choices are fixed long before you existed"

      Fixed by who? The future truths? Are they out there making me act?

      Of course not, they are descriptions, nothing else. I fail to see the alternative here than in your view would be required by free will.

      I mean, i can understand the idea than one could do something else, but how does that look like in pratice? It seems to me than we say that we could do diferently because there are no external factors forcing we do choose this instead of that, but that does not seems to be a problem here

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    11. @Talmid

      Are you saying that "Fixed by who? The future truths? Are they out there making me act?" But your hypothesis is that "From every fact about the present it is the case than i will do X and Y tomorrow(i hope!), but these facts do not determine me at all, they are descriptive only"

      This means that there is some factor in the present that necessitates what you do in the future. They cannot be merely "descriptive" because present facts don't *describe* the future at all. You say that "from every fact about the PRESENT" the future follows. In other words, a kind of determinism holds. This is true whether one thinks it is the "laws" or some other things that cause future events, it doesn't really matter. The point is that given any state of the present, only one future outcome is possible.That is a possible solution to the dilemma I initially posed but it comes at two costs:

      (1) It is notoriously difficult to reconcile determinism of this sort with free will. If at any point in time, only one future outcome is possible, then only one future was possible since the beginning of time. In other words, the initial conditions of the universe (at big bang, or whenever) are such that it was literally impossible that I not type this post. It would be just as impossible that I levitate. I see no way to have moral responsibility in such a world.

      (2) This scenario actually rules out miracles and is incompatible with Christianity. Christianity denies there is one possible future necessitated by the initial state of the universe, in at least one instance, namely the Resurrection. If the past state of the universe in any way necessitated the Resurrection, then it was not a miracle.

      It may be tempting then to just concede- the entire future is deterministic except with regard to miracles. But if that is the case, then we are back to our original problem, viz. how is it that God knows the future?

      (a) God knows the future by knowing his own nature - Ruled out since this results in modal collapse and denies divine freedom

      (b) God knows the future by knowing what he intends to bring about - also ruled out since this supposes there is some accident within God which corresponds to "what he intends to bring about"

      (c) God knows the future by knowing what is actual- This is my proposed solution, and it seems to be yours as well. But I suppose (c-1) God knows what is actual, including the future and you say (c-2) God knows the future by knowing what is actual, i.e. the present.

      But if God knows the future by essentially deriving it from the present, there is only one possible future that can be derived from the present. This means there is no possible future in which miracles occur.

      Tom

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    12. "If you knew the state of the universe after the big bang + the laws of physics, you could work out exactly what you would decide today."

      If choices were predetermined by external causes, without any capacity for self-determination, what would be the use of deliberation, given that deliberation is for the sake of choice, and choice is the result of deliberation?

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    13. "Yea, I don't see how God can have perfect knowledge of the future unless the future in some way already exists. Has Ed written about this problem somewhere given that he defends presentism over some form of eternalism?"

      It is eternally present to Divine knowledge, but as future it does not yet exist, just as past, as past, has ceased to exist. In fact, ontologically speaking, the existence of something is considered posterior to Divine knowledge; if being present to Divine knowledge were the same as existing, then everything would share Divine eternity and would have no need for the Divine act that grants and sustains existence.

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    14. I don't see the problem here. God is absolute Being, from which creation receives its being only by the gratuity of the eternally freely act of his donation thereof and accordingly exists in relation to him in an entirely derivative manner, upon whom it's always dependent. Insofar as all creation participates in this (and it certainly can never do so in excess or independently of him) then it follows that insofar as his knowledge is perfect with respect to himself in the infinite boundlessness of his pure Actuality (which it is), then his knowledge is no less perfect and indeed must encompass that which participates in that very gift of his being in an ever finite, delimited, and privative manner.

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    15. To augment my previous comment, it should be said there is nothing about the per-se knowledge of an action or event, in which some free act is otherwise taken to occur, that thereby entails the act was not in fact free and that determinism applies. Should I happen observe the decay of a radioisotope and, upon its having done so, find its probability of decay now to be 1 and thereby knowing this does not permit me to conclude that this is somehow a deterministic outcome. How does this even follow? The radioactive decay of an isotope just is indeterministic. If I ask you about your plans for the coming day, does free will only apply to them because you've yet to carry them out, whereas tomorrow it becomes determinism because you've already done so and your knowledge of such makes it so? Of course, it is true that actions taken and sealed, as it were, in time cannot be reversed; but how does this change the fact that your actions were freely undertaken all the same? As I indicate in my prior comment, it is only in severing the ontological continuity of being from God in which creation participates that it becomes at all glancingly imaginable to say God does not or cannot know the future. But our free actions certainly do not accomplish this (although sin incurs a breach against God and toward nonexistence, i.e., Death); at any rate, such an idea is in abeyance of classical theism, which perhaps is the real issue for those struggling with this notion. But that's its own discussion.

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    16. @Tom

      I admit i still do not see the dificulty. For instance, one can say than my choice of dinner today was explained by factors such as i liking what i choose more than other options available, my knowledge of the choice nutritional value, my thought before going to eat etc, such than someone who both knew what was available and knew me could guess correctly what i would eat. Run the tape a hundred times, i still make the same choice.

      In a sense my choice is "necessited" by certain factors, but these are internal to me, in the end the explanation lies on my mind. I'am unfree because it was predictable? I don't think so.

      There are in the present certain factors than necessitate, say, the choice of dinner of someone on 24 of july of 2230? In a very loose sense, for things will happen in a way than on this date there will be this certain person on a certain context, but the factors that will really explain the choice will be internal to this person. Looking at this, i admit i fail to see how (1) works out.

      About (2), it is actually a good point if we imagine a naturalist cosmos. If we factor in facts about spiritual substances and God Itself, them i suppose than miracles can be predictable as well. Someone like the own Laplace Demon, who only knows particles movements, truly would not be capable of seeing than miracles would happen.

      Perhaps we have very diferent intuitions here, for the idea than one needs to choose between free will and choices being predictable seems strange. I could see it being a thing in a cartesian cosmos were matter is this blind thing ruled by these Laws of Physics and the mind comes from outside all and forces the atoms to act diferently, but i do not see the cosmos that way.

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    17. @Dane the issue isn’t between divine knowledge and human freedom. My issue is with divine knowledge and presentism. If you look at your comment closely, it’s clear that God knows *that which exists*. To posit God knows something that does not exist raises the issue: how? Classically, God knows possibilities (ie things that don’t exist but could) by knowing himself. But this solution doesn’t work with regard to future-non existent objects.

      Tom

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    18. @Talmid

      My main thesis is that presentism is false for classical theists because God knows the future, which requires the future exist. I say it exists simply, ie im an externalist. You say that it doesn’t exist simply but it is perfectly determined by the causes in the present moment.

      Regarding determinism, by definition it is impossible that I choose otherwise. And this impossibility lies in factors that have been present before I was born. How then can anyone be held morally responsible ? Ought implies can. But if it’s impossible that I avoid some evil, eg lying, then holding me responsible for lying is like holding me responsible for not being able to fly.

      Regarding miracles, my point is this: the entire fate of the cosmos cannot be necessitated by the initial conditions of the universe if you believe in miracles. For example, Peter’s belief that Jesus rose, even if determined by psychological factors internal to him, it is certainly not determined by factors present before he was born, because Jesus rising is something not determined by factors before Peter was born. If that is the case, going back to the original problem, how then does God have foreknowledge of Peter’s belief in Jesus?

      My hypothesis is that all times are real, he knows it by knowing Peter’s actual belief. Your response so far would seem to require that God derive knowledge of Peter’s belief based on factors in the first moment of creation. But God cannot do that since the factors in the first moment of creation do not necessitate the resurrection itself.

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    19. Classically, God knows possibilities (ie things that don’t exist but could) by knowing himself. But this solution doesn’t work with regard to future-non existent objects.

      If something is impossible then it is not possible right? But if it is possible, then the possibility of this "something" exists. Why doesn't this work with future-non existent objects if they are possible to exist?

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    20. @bmiller

      Possible objects, however one accounts for them, can be known by God knowing himself. To put it colloquially, God knows what he’s able to do, and what he’s able to do is what accounts for what things are possible.

      Knowing what actually happens though isn’t a matter of God knowing what he’s *able* to do, but what is *actually done*. If we say some of what is actually done is truly up to created agents, it’s obviously not accounted for by God peering into his own nature. Even if though we think, as Aquinas did, that God is the cause of creature choices, it still isn’t the case that God knows this by knowing his abilities, but rather by knowing his own actual choices.

      But God’s actual choices cannot be something internal to him, like an accident, since God is simple (and as Aquinas rightfully teaches, God is not really related to his effects).

      So my conclusion is that God knows all that exists. He knows himself, and that accounts for possibilities, and he knows creation, and that is actualities. But this includes past, present and future

      Tom

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    21. @Tom

      I find your view reasonable. I'am a presentist but i can see how you arrived there.

      I can understand better your view now, specially with the miracles discussion. Well, as i tried to defend on the comment on the person in 2230, someone who knows everything, like God, would be capable of knowing the future.

      Remember i do not limit this knowledge to only the natural world like Laplace Demon would have,but everything, truths about what will and what could come about, everything. Perhaps my molinism plays a factor here, i guess, it is a useful resource but who gives a lot of discussion.

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    22. "Perhaps we have very diferent intuitions here, for the idea than one needs to choose between free will and choices being predictable seems strange."

      If one deliberates, weighs alternatives, and decides what to do, it means that one's choice is the result of one's own will—a rational act of self-determination and, as such, a free act, rather than one determined by external or internal compulsion. However, this does not mean that choices are not more or less predictable depending of the knowledge on the one choosing, for no one chooses independently of who one is, just as the virtuous person—who is the freest of all—will always choose in accordance with virtue.

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    23. "Classically, God knows possibilities (ie things that don’t exist but could) by knowing himself. But this solution doesn’t work with regard to future-non existent objects."

      If something existed, exists, or will exist, it is considered to be solely through participation in the Divine act that bestows and sustains existence. Thus, the existence of anything is ontologically posterior to God and His knowledge, and there is no future non-existent thing that is not known by God in timeless eternity. Divine knowledge is not like human knowledge, which starts from the sensory perception of existing things and anticipates future ones through inductive reasoning.

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    24. Anon @ 10:56 is correct. Moreover, potentials are not entirely non-existent either. Future potentials, or for that matter potentials that are never actualized, are still encompassed in the ontological participation of God's being. Frankly, I am entirely nonplussed by Tom's contentions here, which strike me as conceptually confused. He does not attempt to address this logic of ontology; nor does he acknowledge act and potential, its relation to change or substantial form and how no contradiction is therby entailed by God's knowledge of the future. He seemingly construes the alternative of his own position by such locutions as God choosing, peering into his own nature, deriving the future from the present... No presentist here ascribes to such a passible notion of God. I wish to be clear in saying I am not making an ad hominem here. I just genuinely do not understand what position he takes himself to be countering; for it certainly isn't a classical theistic one.

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    25. @dane

      I was using the concepts of Talmid regarding deriving the future from the present. But I am not confused. So let’s break this down:

      God knows contingent future truths (eg God knows what I am going to do tomorrow). According to presentism, the events of tomorrow do not exist. So how does God know what I am going to do tomorrow?

      Here are the possibilities:
      (1) God knows it by knowing himself. This is the classic explanation of how God knows necessary truths. I used the language of peering into his nature, but that is fanciful. The metaphysical foundation for how God knows necessary truths, including possibilia, is God knowing his nature and his power (which are really identical)

      (2) God knows future realities by knowing his own choices, ie what he intends to do. This is classically how theologians thought God knew contingent realities.

      (3) God knows the future in virtue of his knowledge of some actual created thing. Talmid proposed God knows the future by deriving it from the existing present. I deny this bc it entails determinism and instead opt for the idea that God knows the future by knowing the actual existing future as it is in itself, ie eternalism is true.

      Now, you may be tempted to opt for (1) or (2). But (1) entails fatalism. If God knows all choices that anyone ever makes by knowing himself, all choices are just as necessary as the divine nature. This is incompatible with divine or human freedom.

      On the other hand, opting for 2 conflicts with divine simplicity. To say that God knows what happens in the future by knowing what he intends to do, ascribes to God, in addition to the divine nature, a mental accident which corresponds to the volition ‘what God intends to do.’

      So I conclude (1) and (2) are out and (3) remains. Hence why I deny presentism.

      You can *say* this is confused, and hand-wave about Aristotelian terms. But none of that is an actual argument. Rather, explain where my reasoning is faulty.

      Tom

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    26. "Moreover, potentials are not entirely non-existent either. Future potentials, or for that matter potentials that are never actualized, are still encompassed in the ontological participation of God's being."

      Nothing can participate in God without being actual in reality, for to be actual in reality through the divine act that bestows and sustains the actuality of being is the fundamental participation in God. The ontological possibilities eternally present to God's knowledge, no matter whether they receive the actuality of being or not, do not participate in God; rather, they are God Himself.

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    27. If the entire universe is the product of a single, timeless eternal divine act then from the perspective of ultimate reality the entire history of the universe is already fixed and real. Everything is eternally present to the divine intellect. A commitment to divine simplicity and timelessness leads to eternalism like what Aquinas or Pruss argue for, or a serious commitment to presentism leads to a rejection of divine simplicity similar to what William Lane Craig argues for. I don’t see how you argue for both presentism and divine simplicity.

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    28. Aquinas was a presentist, not an eternalist. How exactly is presentism incompatible with divine simplicity? To be eternally present to God's knowledge does not imply being actual. God does not know beings through their actuality, as humans do; rather, He is the one who confers actuality upon them according to His knowledge. And while God's act is one and timeless—given that there would be no time without created beings subject to change, passing from potency to act—the ontological possibilities are manifold and limited in their capacity to receive, both by their own essence and by their relationship to other possibilities.

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    29. @Anonymous,

      You say "To be eternally present to God's knowledge does not imply being actual. God does not know beings through their actuality, as humans do; rather, He is the one who confers actuality upon them according to His knowledge."

      True, God knows potentialities as well, so being in God's mind does not mean that something has to be *actual*. However, the potencies themselves are dependent on that which is actual. God knows all possibilities by knowing his own actual, active power.

      The issue with the future is this: *How* does God know what will happen in the future if the future is not actual? As I said above, there are three possibilities:
      (1) God knows it by knowing his own nature. This is how God knows possibilia and necessary truths.

      (2) God knows it by knowing his own intentions for what he wills to bring about in the future

      (3) God knows it by knowing what is actual.

      You reject (3).
      The problem with (1) is that if God knew what the future was going to be, by knowing his own nature, the future would be just as necessary as the divine nature. This would entail there is no divine freedom or human freedom since the divine nature is necessary and fully actual.

      The problem with (2) is that "God's intentions" are not accidental things, events or properties within the mind of God, since God is simple and has no accidents. There is no such thing as some volitional state that exists as an accident in the mind of God, logically prior to creation.

      So what is your solution?

      Tom





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    30. @Tom

      First of all, I think that in relation to God, who encompasses all times while transcending them all, one cannot speak of any future. God stands in the exact same relationship to all instants of time, without any distinction of before and after; thus, what was and what will be is no less present to God than what is now, in the actual instant. What kind of time could exist without the subsistence and motion of the creature? And how can the creature subsist and move without the actuality-bestowing sustenance of Divine grace? Furthermore, it is presupposed that God brings into actuality that which He knows, not that He knows it because He brings it into actuality. It is also presupposed that God knows creatures by knowing His own will, since ontological possibilities attain actuality as a fruit of the Divine will, their existence being added to their eternal presence in God "in the manner of an accident." The Divine will is not an accident added to the Divine essence, yet there is a distinction with respect to intellection between the Divine will and essence. This is because—speaking in human terms, without implying any real succession or distinction—God first is, then He knows Himself, and thereafter He wills what He knows insofar as He knows it to be desirable. However, by natural necessity, God wills nothing but Himself, for He is self-sufficient and lacking nothing. If He wills something outside of Himself, He wills it for its own good, without being in any way dependent upon it; for things need God in order to subsist and move, whereas God has absolutely no need of things.

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    31. Tom,

      You are incorrect. Creation derives its being from God's absolute Being that he extends gratuitously as composites of actuality and potentiality, full stop. Potentiality is not nothing, despite your stubborn assertion to the contrary. And it is potentiality that grounds our experience of things persisting as the things that they are substantially while subject to change. And this is precisely in keeping with how we in fact experience the world. Water can potentially melt, potentially freeze, potentially serve as a solvent for yet other substances; but it cannot potentially, say, become Styrofoam. How odd that substances should always retain their respective composite actuality and potentialities across the tenseless universe if potentiality is nothing, no? And if potentiality had no claim to existence whatsoever, anything could become anything at all at any point. Yet this is just not how the universe works, either. Your proposal is entirely parasitic upon what Aristotle already sufficiently explains whereas you sit there insisting on a further ad hoc overlay of pure illusion with respect to change with no warrant for doing so. But really your proposal is worse than this. Unless you're proposing pantheism, and that the entirety of the universe's existence is always already tenselessly actual as God, then how do you account for the potentiality of the ensemble universe itself being this rather than that, or even rather than not at all? In its ontological origin, the universe as an ensemble exists as this particular tenseless block aligned in this particular way with this particular number of dimensions and so on. After all, by your own account, even if our illusory experience of change about bananas moves from green, to yellow, to brown, you are already acknowledging that these discrete manifestations of bananas as green, yellow, and brown are encompassed within God's actuality. But in that case God could have created the universe such that even tenselessly bananas could be brown, and later green, and yet later yellow, instead. In short the universe even as a tenseless block, by your own logic, could have potentially been *that* but is actually instead *this*. Well, congratulations, you believe in real potentiality after all.

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    32. @Anonymous,

      This sounds like a lot of jargon strung together but I fail to see how this answers my question about how God knows the future.

      If you are appealing to God being outside of time to say that is how he knows the future, then we agree, but that means the future *exists* i.e. presentism is false.

      OTOH if you are arguing God knows the future because of some other means, explain why it does not fall into the dilemma I proposed for (1) or (2).

      Tom

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    33. @Tom

      God does not know the future as future, but as present, and He does not know existing things from their existence, His knowledge and will being the cause of their existence.

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    34. @Dane,

      You are completely ignoring the discussion at hand in order to support your own talking points. Where did I deny the reality of potentialities? Where did I say anything about a block universe not having potential? Can you actually read what I wrote rather than what you think I wrote?

      Moreover, I am arguing against presentism. I have argued if presentism is true, God has no way of knowing the future. Because God does know the future, presentism is not true. I have explained why and you have not addressed the argument at all, and instead gone on to talking points about potentialities.

      @Anonymous,
      You say "God does not know the future as future, but as present." I would agree with what you are saying in substance (although I would use different terms since there is no "the" future nor is there "present" to God since he is timeless).

      But in that case, you are actually proving my point. To God, there is no *future*. But God's perspective is true. Future exists to us, not to God. Hence future is relative and presentism is false.

      Tom

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    35. @Tom

      "Present” not as a boundary between past and future, but as the eternal now. "All things that are in time are present before God from eternity." Does this mean that their existence is eternal? It is not their existence that is eternal, but the existence of God, who by knowing Himself knows all ontological possibilities and by His will brings them, each in its proper order, from possibility into actuality—that is, from non-existence into existence. If there can be no time without subsistence and motion—because time is understood to be an accident of motion, and nothing can move if it does not subsist—and motion is the transition of a subsistent entity from one state of being to another (that is, from potency to act), does the past refer to anything other than states that have ceased to be actual, and the future to states that are only potential? Is existence anything other than the fundamental act of being, which is continuously granted to creatures through their participation—according to their capacity and openness to receive—in the timeless, being-bestowing activity of God?

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    36. Divine simplicity + timelessness means:
      God has no temporal parts or change.

      God’s knowledge is identical to God’s essence and is unchanging and complete.

      God’s single eternal act includes knowing all of creation’s history in one timeless “now.”

      So the entire history of the universe is real from God’s perspective

      But presentism:
      Only the present exists; the past has ceased to exist, and future does not yet exist.
      Thus, truths about future events are not determinate; God cannot know them as actual because they do not exist.

      This creates a conflict: Divine simplicity entails timeless omniscience
      If God is simple, then God cannot “gain” or “lose” knowledge. God does wait for the future to happen to know it. Presentism says future events don’t exist yet, so there’s nothing to know. A timeless God must know the whole of history in a single eternal act.

      God knowing the future like Laplace’s demon does not work. Not only is it not compatible with human freedom, but it requires God to have tensed divine knowledge.
      If only the present exists, God must know:
      “It is now t₀.”
      Later: “It is now t₁.”
      But a timeless, simple God cannot have tensed, changing knowledge.
      So God’s exhaustive, definite foreknowledge is incompatible with a non-existent future.

      I don’t think that this has anything to do with everything being actual and there being no possibilities to actualize. It means that there is no universal clock ticking out time t0, t1.. so on, but that time is observer dependent. The actualization of potential takes place in one eternal, tenseless instant.

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  3. Fantastic article.

    Ed, are you planning on addressing the claims he makes in this book about the trinity?

    His other works in the same series are on the attributes of God where he directly gives arguments against a strict divine simplicity. I would love to see such a reply to his views on the attributes of God, Christology, or the Trinity!

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  4. I can't see how the various Hilbert's Hotel scenarios could involve a mathematical contradiction unless set theory were inconsistent. Since Craig grants the consistency of set theory (and, indeed, the Hilbert's Hotel scenarios cannot get off the ground in the first place without this assumption), it is good that he doesn't place much emphasis on the mathematical contradiction route.

    In any case, I concur with the conclusion reached that an infinite past is not an actual infinite given presentism.

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    1. If I recall Craig correctly here, he does not argue that mathematics about the matter is inconsistent. Rather he contests that what is otherwise mathematically valid can by itself be taken to lay legitimate claim to the real-world. So, he uses an example like how the formula x² may be applied to represent inputs so as to derive their respective outputs, to answer (say) something along the lines of how much distance can be traversed using x units of energy? Such a formula mathematically permits an input of -2, you cannot have negative units of energy. It's a simplified illustration (and I am paraphrasing Craig), but again his point is that mathematical legitimacy and consistency does not by itself entail real-world applicability.

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    2. It is true that Craig makes the point about logical consistency not being sufficient for real-world instantiability, but he has further argued that the scenarios in which people check out of Hilbert's Hotel entail a logical contradiction. He reasons as follows (this is a paraphrase):

      Suppose the hotel is full, and all of the guests in rooms #4 and up check out of the hotel. The result is that there are now only three guests in the hotel (I am assuming that the numbering starts at 1). But, according to infinite set theory, the number of guests that checked out in this scenario is the same as the number that checked out in the previous scenario (ℵ0), even though the number of guests remaining differs in quantity in each case (ℵ0 and 3, respectively). Thus, we have subtracted identical quantities from identical quantities (ℵ0 – ℵ0) and have arrived at different results, and this is a contradiction.

      In Craig's own words (referring to the checking out scenarios), "But in reality, one cannot stop people from checking out of a hotel if they so desire! In this case, one does wind up with logically impossible situations, such as subtracting identical quantities from identical quantities and finding nonidentical differences" ("The Kalam Cosmological Argument," pg. 111-112; in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology).

      This is the problematic argument that I had in mind.

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    3. I neglected to state the "previous scenario" alluded to. The previous scenario is a full hotel (ℵ0 guests) in which the odd-numbered guests check out, which results in a hotel that still has ℵ0 guests. Craig's claim is that in this scenario, we have ℵ0 - ℵ0 = ℵ0, in contrast to the scenario in which all the guests in rooms 4 and up check out, in which case we have (Craig claims) ℵ0 - ℵ0 = 3. The contradiction is then that ℵ0 = 3.

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    4. That sounds right. Far be it from me to try dispelling the dubia on this issue, however. Not least since I do not adhere to the argument myself. To be sure, Craig has certainly put much effort into defending it against various rejoinders, and so I don't wish to be flippantly dismissive towards him. And to be more fair, I could probably stand to revisit the argument again. Still, I find the kind of logic that Prof. Feser himself has expounded, particularly in the distinction between linear and hierarchical (or derivatively dependent) change to be more compelling about the matter. Within the scope of linear change (as would be applicable to time), wherein Feser has used the illustration of progenity, the offspring of an immediate ancestor need not persist for the offspring to sire his own offspring in turn, and likewise indefinitely; so also in reverse—and in principle, this could extend backwards forever. Now, I can imagine Craig picking up on this particular example and perhaps argue basically along the lines of, "Okay let's go with that: an infinite series of proginity would leave an infinite number deceased descendants, which is just absurd!" And Craig would be right, as far as that goes. Yet Feser's point isn't one about ancestral propagation. He's simply showing, by way of illustration, that there's nothing inherently delimiting about a linear series as such, and that, accordingly, nothing entails an inherent logical inconsistency in its infinite extension.

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  5. Interesting than the B-theory seems to have this vulnerability, the view usually seems to be treated as a problem to the Kalam(at least Dr. Craig seems to see it that way, but i could be wrong).

    Anyway, aways saw Dr. Craig defense of premise 1 of the Kalam the weakest part of his case. Dr. Pruss approach seems more interesting, love his Grim Reaper Paradox.

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  6. Hi Prof

    So in your defence of Presentism in Aristotle's Revenge ,

    You consistently refer to reality of change, atleast around 7-8 times overall,


    "These sequences of thoughts, experiences, actions, and states of the external physical world will all involve change and thus the passage of time. Hence if, in the name of STR, someone denies that any of this is real, then he will implicitly be denying that the empirical evidence for STR itself is real – in which case he will, in the very act of denying the reality of change and temporal passage, be undermining the rational justification for that denial."

    "The critic can say to Parmenides: “Parmenides, you were the one who presented me with this argument against the reality of change. I merely pointed out that since the rehearsal of such an argument is itself an instance of change, you are yourself already implicitly committed to its reality, despite your explicit denial of it. I am pointing out a contradiction in your own position, not bringing in some question-begging premise from outside it."

    So Prof I do consider this to be one of the strongest arguments in your arsenal, although suppose, if parmenides denies reasoning from premise to conclusion and also says that he grasped all the relations in a single act.

    How would one respond, does our response to Parmenides after his denial presuppose a human mode of reasoning in our interlocutor. And would that be begging the question
    would you say modus ponens reasoning of it's nature objectively entails that one consciously bring to mind the sentence of the premise and then the conclusion , so if one presents an argument in that mode, they are implicitly comitted to the reality of change regardless of whether they are actually reasoning as such.

    What would your response be like, since you make reference on quite a number of occasions.

    Norm



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    1. Also Prof I have been tracking your development of arguments for PSR....in posts since 2012...

      In one 2012 post you argue that the PSR might be grounded in the Principle of Causality...

      But ever since that post in your more formal posts and books, you have defended PSR on independent grounds and you have even gone on to (I think) defend PC via reference to PSR.

      So would you still say that the PSR is grounded in the PC or would you retreat from that claim

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    2. Hmmm..

      I think Prof would now say that PC presupposes PSR from what he wrote in ,Five Proofs

      "The other premises can be defended by various metaphysical arguments, such as arguments to the effect that the principle of causality follows from the principle of sufficient reason (PSR), and that PSR rightly understood can be established via reductio ad absurdum of any attempt to deny it"

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    3. Also I have been struggling to understand how am I not begging the question against Parmenides.

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    4. Open for anyone to answer

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    5. After reflecting on what you wrote in this paragraph Prof, I think the key word is rehearsal, what is meant by rehearsal , are you positing some conscious bringing of the premise to min then the conclusion in parmenides mind? Or in you the interlocutor.. would you say positing the argument itself presupposes that your interlocutory mind reasons from premise to premise even if you the presenter of the argument are not.

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  7. I asked WLC about this years ago when I was a grad student in his phil religions class. He replied that infinitely many things would accumulate in the present (or something like this). For example, there would be infinitely many truths about what happened.

    -Josh Rasmussen

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    1. It reminds me of the argument that infinitely many souls could accumulate if one soul was created every day. On truths, would there not already be infinitely many truths about math?

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    2. How would Dr. Craig square such a position with his nominalism? It would seem these truths would have to:
      (1) Be existing in some Platonic realm (which he would deny)
      (2) Be instantiated as true presently (by an infinite set of actual truthmakers, perhaps?), or
      (3) Be able to be enumerated by someone (which would result in a potential rather than actual infinity).

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    3. Truths are not "things" in the sense of substances. There is no particular reason to think that a metaphysics that forbids an actual infinity of substances also forbids an infinity of truths.

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  8. fragment of the wholeSeptember 9, 2026 at 10:51 AM

    As an atheist-turned-mystic, I find these philosophical arguments kind of laughable. I'm sorry because I know its a whole career for Feser and others, but what on heaven or earth makes you think god can be captured by this sort of logic-chopping? Why do you think our limited cognitive categories are applicable to something that is beyond all categorization?

    Including existence. God cannot "exist" as a person or rock does, which is as a specific chunk of reality. God underlies all of reality so doesn't really exist (nor not-exist) and efforts to prove or disprove it are fundamentally misguided.

    Sorry I'll shut up now, if you like rationalizing about God who am I to stop you? It's mostly harmless.

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    1. "Including existence. God cannot "exist" as a person or rock does, which is as a specific chunk of reality. God underlies all of reality so doesn't really exist (nor not-exist) and efforts to prove or disprove it are fundamentally misguided."

      That is... quite okay, actually

      I f i had to recomend something to you i guess i would pick the Calcutta School? I remember reading a very deep and interesting comparison between Shankara and Thomas and there was a lot of similarities*, perhaps it could interest you. Sadly, can't remember the name of the archive.

      *and a lot of diferences, of course

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    2. “Why do you think our limited cognitive categories are applicable to something that is beyond all categorization?

      Including existence. God cannot "exist" as a person or rock does, which is as a specific chunk of reality. God underlies all of reality so doesn't really exist” obviously you are not very familiar with Feser’s work and in particular the Thomistic concept of Analogy. A concept designed to precisely to capture these 2 elements. Existence is used analogously with regard to rocks, God and humans. And analogy is what enables us to go beyond the mundane with our limited cognitive capacities. Thomists such as Feser, have written extensively in defence of the concept.

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    3. Praise God for your conversion and extraordinary experiences of Him! St. Thomas was a mystic too who at one time desired to burn all his works, but the Lord said to him “You have written well of Me.” No philosophy captures God’s essence, just as no amount of pointing to the sun and talking about the sun will ever allow you to experience what it is like to be IN the sun. Philosophy gives us some facts to guide our thinking and correct our wounded perceptions of our Creator.

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    4. What's the difference between this kind of mysticism and agnosticism?

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    5. @Colin Casey: You could lump it under agnosticism I suppose. But agnosticism says that we can't know the truth about god's existence. This is actually stronger, it says the question is meaningless. God does not exist, but he doesn't not-exist either!

      That was kind of a revelation for me. It means God can be "real" but in a different way than that denoted by the word "exist". What does that mean though? Still figuring it out.

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    6. but what on heaven or earth makes you think god can be captured by this sort of logic-chopping? Why do you think our limited cognitive categories are applicable to something that is beyond all categorization?

      and yet you insist that the following kinds of things can be said:

      God cannot "exist" as a person or rock does, which is as a specific chunk of reality. God underlies all of reality so doesn't really exist (nor not-exist)

      How can you imagine such logic-chopping have anything to do with God, or not-God, or anything at all, or nothing at all.

      Here's the deal: unless you want to self-consistently just shut up about not only God, but all philosophical issues relating to God, and existence, and to good, (and since EVERYTHING is related to God) to anything at all, you are self-inconsistently disproving that assertion that such philosophy is empty logic-chopping. Our limitations are indeed limits, but they don't make truth not true. In Chestertonian-speak, the truths of God are more true than we can sufficiently speak, but that doesn't make our speech error.

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  9. Bill Craig's Four Volume Systematic Philosophical Theology is his magnum opus and an incredible intellectual achievement. His Kalam argument will continue to be debated, but his place in academia is assured. He has written over 40 books and over 200 articles. He is both a philosopher and a New Testament scholar and has doctorates in both fields.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GD6LLCMB?binding=hardcover&ref_=saga_sdp_cft_dsk

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  10. It is easy to show that a beginningless universe entails an actual infinite.

    First, let us take a particular model of beginningless universe: a cyclic universe of FINITE size that expands ever more slowly until it reaches a maximum size (and minimum density), then starts to contract until it reaches a minimum size (and maximum density), and then bounces to start expanding into a new cycle. Assume that in each and every cycle God creates in ONE planet human-like beings, i.e. living beings endowed with spiritual souls, of which a FINITE number attain eternal salvation. (As they suffice for the demonstration, it is not relevant whether unsaved humans are annihilated or suffer eternally in hell.)

    At any moment, since there have been infinite past cycles, the number of saved human beings simultaneously enjoying the Beatific Vision is infinite. QED.

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    1. This doesn't quite show that a beginningless universe entails an actual infinite, though. Rather, it shows that a beginningless universe in which God creates immortal souls every so often throughout past history entails an actual infinite. But suppose God doesn't do that and instead merely creates a few rocks that He preserves in being throughout all of past time up to the present. In that case, there is no actual infinite (assuming presentism, of course), even though there is a beginningless universe.

      But one might think that if there were a beginningless universe, then there *could* be an actual infinite so that if an actual infinite is impossible, we could still conclude that the universe cannot be beginningless.

      However, in my view, the Hilbert's Hotel scenarios do not succeed in showing that an actual infinite is impossible in any case, but other arguments are, of course, possible.

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    2. @Colin It shows that there is a kind of beginningless universe that does entail an actual infinite.

      Note that given General Relativity this is the most plausible kind of beginningless universe provided the Big Bounce resets entropy and black holes, which we don't know if it's the case because GR and QM have not been "harmonized" yet.)

      Note also that, given a beginningless cyclical universe, the case is just logical because

      1. if God did not create beings with immortal spiritual souls we would not be having this discussion, and

      2. if God created beings with immortal souls in at least one cycle, why would not He create such beings in all other cycles?

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    3. if God created beings with immortal souls in at least one cycle, why would not He create such beings in all other cycles?

      We don't know. We can't manufacture illumination out of "we don't know. From the very fact that rational beings in heaven could all associate together regardless of which cycle they came from originally, implies that because of the heavenly scene it isn't necessary that each cycle be like the others. And if God so decided that some cycles would be different, those beings in heaven could appreciate the differences and that alone might be enough reason. We don't, and could not, know except from God's telling us why.

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  11. I am the guy who showed that a beginingless finite cyclical universe in which God creates (and eventually brings to the Beatific Vision) a finite number of ensouled human-like beings in each cycle entails that at any moment there is an infinite number of souls (or of "people" in glorified bodies, if that is the divine design) simultaneously enjoying the Beatific Vision.

    In this scenario, if someone in Heaven asks God:

    - Lord, how many souls have you created in total so far?

    he will receive the answer:

    - Aleph-zero, or aleph-null if you prefer, i.e. the cardinal of the set of natural numbers.

    At this point the following passage from p. 106 of [1] is most opportune:

    (Begin of quote)

    Arguments for metaphysical possibility or impossibility typically rely upon intuitions and conceivability arguments, which are obviously much less certain guides than strict logical consistency or inconsistency. The poorly defined nature of metaphysical modality cuts both ways dialectically: on the one hand, arguments for the metaphysical impossibility of some state of affairs will be much more subjective than arguments concerning strict logical impossibility; on the other hand, such arguments cannot be refuted by facile observations to the effect that such states of affairs have not been demonstrated to be strictly logically inconsistent.

    (End of quote)

    because the case is that one either "sees" or does not see that the scenario in the above dialog does not make metaphysical sense. Thus, the argument for the metaphysical impossibility of the existence of an actual infinite number of entities relies on an intuition and is wholly subjective: either you "see" that God creating an infinite number of souls (or of whatever indefinitely subsisting enumerable entities) does not make metaphysical sense, or you do not see it. But the point is that the argument is based on the assumption of a Creator God, because ONLY IN THAT CASE, i.e. in the case that each soul has been individually created by God, the existence of an actual infinite (and therefore indefinite) number of simultaneously existing souls does not make metaphysical sense. In other words, if God creates each entity then the number of simultaneously existing created entities must be definite and therefore finite, but if God does not exist and the universe just exists as a "brute fact", then the simultaneous existence of an infinite number of entities poses no metaphysical problem. Thus, the requirements for the universe to make metaphysical sense are stronger, or tighter, if it has been created by God than if it exists as a brute fact.

    Therefore, the Kalam Cosmological argument in [1] fails as proof of the existence of God, as it requires the very existence of God which it tries to prove.

    [1] Craig, W.L. and Sinclair, J.D. (2009). The Kalam Cosmological Argument . In The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology (eds W.L. Craig and J.P. Moreland). https://doi.org/10.1002/9781444308334.ch3

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    1. "In other words, if God creates each entity then the number of simultaneously existing created entities must be definite and therefore finite, but if God does not exist and the universe just exists as a 'brute fact', then the simultaneous existence of an infinite number of entities poses no metaphysical problem."

      I'm not following why this would be. Whatever one thinks of the Hilbert's Hotel argument, it doesn't depend on whether the hotel is created by God or whether it exists as a brute fact.

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    2. It is a case of metaphysical nonsense, not of mathematical or logical inconsistency. It is laid out in the dialog:

      - Lord, how many souls have you created in total so far?

      - Aleph-zero, or aleph-null if you prefer, i.e. the cardinal of the set of natural numbers.

      If God's response makes metaphysical sense to you, that's it.

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    3. Suppose that in the beginningless brute-fact universe there is no God and instead every so often a soul starts to exist as another brute fact. It can happen two minutes after the prior soul, it can happens a million years later etc, a brute fact has no rules, but after every soul it is certain than eventually another will start to exist.

      It seems to me than them the circularity objection loses its power.

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    4. It can happen two minutes after the prior soul, it can happens a million years later etc, a brute fact has no rules

      Yes, but it's even worse than that. The problem with a brute fact - even a single brute fact - in the universe is that it means there's no definitive rules about ANYTHING AT ALL. If the universe is the sort of place in which a brute fact is, then there's no way to discount there being 2, or 200, or 10^200000 brute facts, or any number. Any fact in front of you might be a brute fact. And for any event other than one in which you actually observe the cause being the cause of the fact, when you do a retrospective analysis to "find the cause", even if you find something that could be such a cause, there's no way of being able to say "well, this kind of cause MIGHT have been the cause of the event this time around, or it could be a brute fact, and there's no possible way to assign a probability of one account over the other. A brute fact sort of universe undermines the impetus for science, and for understanding causes.

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    5. William Lane Craig’s influential presentation of the argument defends the claim in several ways, one of which is by arguing that a beginningless universe would amount to an actual infinite, and that an actual infinite is impossible. That judgment, in turn, is supported by appeal to examples like the Hilbert’s Hotel thought experiment, in which the idea of a hotel with an actually infinite number of rooms and guests yields a variety of bizarre consequences.
      In a pair of posts from a decade ago (here and here), I explained why I don’t find this particular argument compelling. For one thing, while the Hilbert’s Hotel scenario is certainly weird, it isn’t clear that it entails any logical contradiction. And without that, the notion of an actual infinite has not strictly been reduced to absurdity.


      I would also be more cautious (than either WLC or Feser here) about what the Hilbert Hotel paradox does or does not imply about an infinite past of a real universe. The Hotel scenario "works" because you can have the guests change rooms. But in a real universe, the guests have to TAKE TIME to change rooms, and (worse, so much worse) the staff has to TELL the guests to change rooms according to some rule, and it necessarily takes an infinite amount of time to tell the guests (since the choice of which rule to use has to originate with a (single) decider, and then communicated, and there's limits on communication propagation). Which means that the new arrivals would have to WAIT an infinite amount of time to get their room. Which - at least sort of - undermines the thesis that they could all "get a room". There's just a LOT of worries about how any Hotel thinking applies (or notionally "applies") to a real universe.

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    6. @Tony

      Indeed, brute facts just are not a friend of a rational discussion, or investigation, or life.

      But i was just trying to play ny the rules of the objector. If we allow brute facts, them the problem of infinite substances will come back to us, that is granted

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    7. Tony:

      "...and there's no possible way to assign a probability of one account over the other [once you grant a brute fact]"

      This point is crucial. Usually when people propose that something exists as a "brute fact," they immediately try to "contain the damage" by saying that other things are "unlikely" to be brute facts rather than having a sufficient explanatory cause.

      But this route isn't available once you admit a brute fact. If you're proposing rules that limit when and where and under what conditions something can be or is likely to be a brute fact, you're no longer talking about brute facts, because to assert that something is a brute fact is to assert that it exists with *no* cause or rule that could rationally explain it, that is just is the way it is with no sufficient cause or explanatory basis for it being that way. If there are no rules, there is nothing to which probability can apply.

      One thing being a brute fact cannot be any more or less likely than everything being a brute fact and all causality being an illusion. To admit a single one is just to abandon logic, reason, and explanation entirely.

      I think the reason for this is that there is a hard logical contradiction implicit in the very concept of a "brute fact."

      To say that something is a "brute fact" is to assert that it is an uncaused cause. But a lot of things logically follow from the concept of an uncaused cause, and one of those things are that it must be a logically and metaphysically necessary being.

      But a "brute fact" is generally asserted to avoid having to explain something that is not logically or metaphysically necessary. Usually it's an attempt by a naturalist to get some contingent fact about the world for free by asserting that it "just is" without any cause or explanation.

      So "brute fact" cashes out to something like "contingent necessity" - a contradiction in terms like "square circle" that asserts two mutually exclusive attributes of a thing.

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  12. The kalam is the weakest cosmo argument, but Craig’s approach isn’t the best. Koons, Rasmussen and others have made better defenses of it IMO

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    1. Koons, Pruss and Craig on the KCA
      https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-natureof-god/the-kalam-cosmological-argument

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  13. It all comes down to different ideas of what is possible. It is true that strangeness is not the same as impossibility, but it is also true that strangeness often leads to doubt about possibility. And not just strangeness as things being odd or unusual or counter-intuitive, but things being strange in a way that seems to be at odds with basic experiences of how things work.

    For instance, the idea of the philosophical zombie. It is true that different theories can give arguments for its impossibility. But the idea of the strangeness of such a creature, even if not articulated exactly still can push someone to try to find a reason against it.

    For my own views, I agree that the an infinite past is not definitively refuted. But by the same token, it has not been shown that an infinite past is only untrue physically in our own universe, but is actually possible. And so we are back to different views of impossibility and which one favors.

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    1. Thinking some more on this topic, it also comes down to the question of what is time. The physical existence of a completed infinity is strange (for instance imagine a world that is an infinite plain stretching in all directions), but so is infinitely many events in the past.

      If time is viewed as corresponding to change, then a formless and void universe where nothing happened up until things started is not so objectionable. But an infinite number of events stretching back forever is not logically contradictory, but goes against our intuitive understanding of time, based on our experience of time.

      Here's another question, how many angels are there, finitely or infinitely many? Aquinas considered this and his answer appears to say there are finitely many, but nonetheless, a huge amount:

      https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1050.htm#article3

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  14. Prof. Feser says:

    ut there are two problems with this. First, if it is meant to support the claim that a beginningless series of past events amounts to an actual infinite, then it is a non sequitur. We can enumerate the superheroes that appear in the Marvel movies, but that doesn’t entail that we’ve enumerated a collection of actual things, because those characters are not actual but fictional. Similarly, the fact that we can enumerate past events does not entail that what we are enumerating is a collection of actual things (whether finitely or infinitely large). On the contrary, we are enumerating things that used to be actual but no longer are.

    I would ask for a clarification on this thesis that past things "are not actual". I am fine with saying that they are not actual in the same way present things are actual, that's OK. But there's many different senses of being, and I think it is important to be cautious here - as, indeed, all of Aristote's Categories is "being careful" about different senses of "to be".

    In particular, I suspect that it is better to say that "the past doesn't exist, simply" than it is to say that "the past doesn't exist in any sense at all". To offer one indicator of this: it seems appropriate to offer that the past stands to actuality DIFFERENTLY than the future does. The future doesn't exist now AND NEVER existed, and this impinges on actuality in a different way than the past does.

    The past thing was, and therefore it will ALWAYS BE TRUE, forever into the (infinite) future that said past thing did exist. This is not said of the any future thing that may happen: the future is contingent in a way the past is not. This suggests that there is a limited sense of "to be" about the past thing or event that persists.

    As another indicator of this: if a person sins, his action existing DURING the event, but then it is over. The guilt then remains, as does the debt of punishment. The guilt is a condition of the soul, but that may be resolved by repentance and absolution, while leaving the debt remaining. The debt is a real relational reality, a relation that is founded on the sinful action, which suggests that at least in a relational sense, the action' existence persists (i.e. not "exists simply", but "exists in a qualified sense").

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  15. Craig should then have modified his Hilbert Hotel as follows: if infinite past is possible, then if every week one hotel room is build over an infinite past number of days, then at the present moment we could have an existing Hilbert’s Hotel with an infinite number of rooms, which would then entail the problems Craig illustrated about hotel guests checking in or out of the hotel. Think someone else (Loke?) had developed or modified Craig’s argument along this line.


    Cheers!
    johannes hui

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  16. I’ve always intuitively (and, yes, I know that counts for little) been in the temporally finite universe camp. I’m also woefully under-read on presentism. But I wonder whether one can bracket the hairy question of actual infinites and ask a narrower question: Can an actually occurring temporal process have a present endpoint—that is, today—while lacking any first stage whatsoever?
    I like that formulation because it shifts attention away from whether past days are presently actual and toward what seems distinctive about this particular sequence: it is temporal, successive, and at least one member of it, today, is actually real now.
    Today is actual. Every past day, likewise, was once actual and successively gave way to another.
    For any particular past day, we can say that it existed and that only finitely many days separate it from today. But from this it does not follow that there is some finite bound within which all past days lie. A beginningless past could still be unbounded in that direction.
    Yet it seems to me that this leaves a further question. I can logically appreciate how, taken distributively, each particular moment might become actual without requiring a finite number of predecessors. But it is not obvious to me that an account sufficient for each member, taken individually, is thereby sufficient as an account of the succession as a whole. What I have not yet seen is an account showing how a succession with no first member can constitute an actually realized temporal history terminating in the actuality of today.
    Perhaps such an account exists. But absent it, it seems to me that the beginningless model has been shown to be formally describable more readily than it has been shown to be metaphysically realizable. Or, if you will permit my sense of humor, the theory has not quite become, well, actual.

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  17. Whereas there is no problem with an endless future, because the future is the amount of time which hasn't yet been traversed or gone through, there is a problem with an endless past, because the past is the amount of time which indeed has been traversed or gone through, and in that precise sense the past is something actual (which already happened) while the future is something potential (which still hasn't happened). An endless past thus posits an infinity which has been gone through or traversed by a continuous process. This is an impossibility, because the infinite cannot be traversed. The problem is not with infinity per se, but with an infinity which has been reached by the continuous process of traversing. For that is what happens when time is passed through. If the past were really infinite, it would thus not be really the past, for it could never been traversed. The past is simply the amount of time which has been gone through in order to get to the present moment. That amount must always be finite.

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    1. It seems that to speak of traversing time is to speak of time as if were something like a distance that something is moving across. Like a man walking across or traversing a street.

      Aristotle defined time as the countable number of change. So it for Aristotle it would be a category error to claim time is traversed.

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    2. No, in Aristotle time is a form of continuity which is traversed in a way analogous to a line as a continuous spatial extension, or better to such a line being drawn in a continuous movement. The amount of time (i.e. how long something exists or how long an event takes) is indeed counted by means of discrete units ot time, just as a line or a spatial distance is measured by means of a unit of length. My point is simply that this amount of time cannot be infinite in the case of the past because the past is always the past of this present moment and the whole of the past, all of it, has to be traversed in order to get to this moment, or otherwise the past is simply no longer the past of this present moment. Thus all of the past has to be passed through in order to get to this present moment, because that's simply what the past is: the amount of time that was passed through in order to get at the present. That's the reason why the past cannot be infinite.

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    3. A man can traverse a highway. What is traversing time?

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  18. https://josephschmid.com/fesers-argument-from-change-for-the-act-potency-distinction/

    Also given that there is a lot of discussion on actuality and potentiality, I invite people like Tony and Prof and everyone else..to comment on the flaws of Schmid here even Schmid if he is lurking around and changed his mind

    "What’s more, Feser’s “solution” doesn’t seem to solve Parmenides’s puzzle. By Feser’s own lights, change involves one kind of being—a given being-in-act [e.g., being-warm-in-act]—arising from a state lacking that kind of being (namely, a state involving a different kind of being—being-in-potency [e.g., being-warm-in-potency]). In that case, though, Feser must admit—along with me—that something exists at t that did not exist at t-1—namely, the relevant being-in-act.

    To make things concrete, suppose coffee goes from warm (at t-1) to cold (at t). Then, on Feser’s own analysis, at t-1 the relevant actual being (the actual coldness of the coffee) did not exist (i.e., was not real or in reality). Then, at a later time t, it exists. Feser, then, is equally committed to denying the principle that “it cannot be the case that .” And so Feser has to grant the very thing that is allegedly problematic on my analysis. What this tells us, I think, is that it simply isn’t problematic at all.,"

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    1. Have you come across it before Prof...

      I think it would be useful for you to use as am example case in refuting arguments against the act potency distinction.

      So it would be great if you could consider it in future posts as to what exactly Schmid is getting wrong here

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  19. Well, that settles it, Norm. Prof. Edward Feser, one of the world's leading Thomistic philosophers, must grant your point.

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    1. Didn't quite get you Anon

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    2. Also Anon my questions are open for anyone to answer

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    3. Norm, I'm not the anonymous above, but since you said your questions are open for anyone, I will make a suggestion, if that is okay.

      I think it would be helpful for you to explain the underlying motivation for your questions. What I mean is, before writing the question, you could have a paragraph or two about why you want this specific question solved, what is the broader context that you are trying to understand that motivates that particular question.

      I think this would be helpful because if people see the overall big picture, then they can respond to that, even if they don't have time or don't know enough to refer to all of the details.

      I don't know enough about the Aristotelian tradition to answer the questions myself, but I think that would help those who do. In the same way that a large book with many topics and subtopics will have an introductory section explaining the purpose of the book and what the reader should expect to get from it.

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    4. NLR

      For example with respect to this query, the act and potency distinction is at the crux of all Thomistic arguments.

      It is sometimes pointed out to put forth the arguments one has to make a lot of metaphysical commitments which is true but the beauty of Dr Feser is that painstaking detail with which he does sketch out those arguments and rebutt objections.

      Since in this post and the next post of Dr. Feser concepts of act and potency are crucial.

      However people don't often engage with it, it is important to address those who did, given Schmid's recent conversion and increased popularity, and also the fact that he still doesn't rates holistic arguments as quite up there, I think it was important to engage with his prior objections.

      Hence I was asking Prof if he would consider refuting those objections, Schmid wrote up in the post.

      And I think it wouldn't take much time, it could be a fun excercise, in discussing the common pitfalls people make.

      Does that make sense

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    5. And usually I don't spend time on the motivation in questions addressed to Prof because I don't think Prof cares, He has said before he judges how easy it is for him to give a reply, and accordingly answers, so I try to keep my main question as crisp as possible and usually it is a clarification of Prof's own work.

      Alas apparently for the blog , it is still more difficult for Prof to reply as compared to twitter.

      But it wasn't always like that, I think you were part of this community before NLR, Prof used to respond to the most silliest objections with charity.

      If you read AR, the argument from change features almost everywhere especially in his defence of predentism

      The questions I raise for example on whether there is question begging in defending change in the retorsion argument, Prof says there isn't because the rehearsal of such an argument is itself and instance of change, but what is meant by rehearsal, does the presentation of a modus ponens argument presuppose the change in the me the target of the argument ohereise why present the argument in that mode anyways assuming that giver of the argument genuinely doesn't reason in that way and has grasped all concepts in a single act by merely existing like an angel.

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    6. "The
      Eleatic philosopher has to move his lips or pen in order to put his ar-
      gument forward; if he bites the bullet and denies that even his lips
      and pen are really moving or that he is really trying to change the
      minds of his listeners or readers, he still has to go through the steps
      of his reasoning in his own mind, and that involves change. "

      From Scholastic metaphysics

      The last question does seem to presuppose the elastic philosopher is going through the steps of reasoning in his mind

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    7. "And usually I don't spend time on the motivation in questions addressed to Prof because I don't think Prof cares, He has said before he judges how easy it is for him to give a reply, and accordingly answers"

      That makes sense.

      "But it wasn't always like that, I think you were part of this community before NLR, Prof used to respond to the most silliest objections with charity."

      Yes, I have been reading the blog off and on since 2015 and have read many of the earlier posts.

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    8. Good interacting with you NLR

      Delete
    9. Anyways

      If you happen to get time, would really appreciate a clarification on what you meant by "rehearsal" and how it avoids the charge of questions begging.

      Your defence of the reality of change is a central part of the underlying thesis.

      So I just wanted to be clear when I put forth the argument to others

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    10. Tony

      I would be grateful for your input on this

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    11. So Tony,

      I actually found your response to this sort of argument in Prof's Tu Quoqe Fallacy Post in 2016


      @Erich: I suppose I would have to ask you for further clarification. Are you saying (on behalf of DoP, of course) something like (A) "the seeming act of rehearsing the argument is only a seeming, there is no actual rehearsing the argument", or (B) "there is indeed a real 'rehearsing the argument' but the act of rehearsing the argument is not change"?

      The latter would be an uphill claim to defend, for ANY action of any sort at all is change in some sense, and B seems to admit of action. I for one would argue that B simply lets in by the back door what P tries to deny.

      As for A, it allows one to simply ignore P's argument: "I have held that there is change, and nobody has presented a counterargument. The seeming acts of counterarguments are illusory, so my argument stands." It appears to be susceptible to all of the problems of lived inconsistency that Prof. Feser outlines above: nobody who argues for P's position actually acts as if they think P's thesis is TRUE, they act as if they believed in change, by acting as if the act of presenting a counterargument is not an illusory sort of thing.

      I completely agree with it :)

      In that same post Erich responded to what you wrote...

      Would you mind takimg a quick look at it and telling me where you think he went wrong

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  20. It seems obvious that there is a sort of actuality to the past that there isn't to the future. It's an actual fact about me that my grandfathers were named Bob and George. This isn't something that has potential to be different. It's "set in stone" as it were. By contrast, the name of my grandson, and whether I will even have a grandson, are merely potentialnl facts about me, because they are in the future. I'm not sure what if any implications this holds for the beginning of time, but presentism as I usually see it presented seems to treat the past and future as equivalent with respect to actuality, but this seems obviously wrong.

    Regardless, it seems to me, there are other reasons why time must be finite in the past. The future will go on forever, and yet there will never come a future moment that will be infinitely far in the future from right now. If am cryogenically frozen before I die, there will never come a moment that I could be thawed out in which I will be able to say that an infinite amount of time has passed from the moment in which I am writing this.

    This is because the future is a merely potential infinite. Future moments are actualized by the passage of finite durations of time, and you never get to infinity by adding the finite.

    Thus, it's simply impossible to get two moments separated by an infinite duration through the passage of time. That's just not how time works. It's not a relationship between two moments thst can obtain through the passage of time.

    Yet, to say that the past is infinite is to claim that this relationship that cannot obtain HAS obtained. It's to assert that there are moments in our past that occurred an infinitely long time prior to the present one. You're claiming thst something that cannot occur via the passage of time - the separation of two moments byban infinite duration - has occurred via the passage of time.

    What this means is, when you claim that the past is infinite, you aren't really talking about time after all. You might be using he *words* "time" and "past" and so forth, but you have implicitly changed their meaning. You are no longer talking about that which passes from future to past through finite change.

    At BEST you may be using analogical language to grasp towards something that transcends time but is like it in some way, perhaps that time itself is derived from.

    I suggest that there's only one possible intelligible candidate here: If talk of an infinite past refers to anything intelligible at all, it's the eternal timeless "preexistence" of God creating the universe from outside time, both by upholding it at every moment as the Unmoved Mover and by setting in motion the first moment of time (which time as we know must have.

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    1. Very well said. And it's what I was trying to suggest, above, as well, but Deuce makes the point clearer.

      About two moments having an infinite amount of time between them: I suppose B-theorists say that their position avoids the problem posed. I don't hold with B-theory, and I suspect that their position amounts to a kind of sleight-of-hand on causality, but I haven't the time to track it down thoroughly.

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    2. I'm not sure but I guess that St. Thomas would reply to this that time is a continuous reality which has no moments, except by the counting mind. Time is the (countable) measure of movement, but the actual counting is done by the mind, which counts from a present moment forward into the future or backward into the past, by means of some artificial unit of time (whether founded in nature or not). This act of counting creates points on the timeline which don't exist in nature, or only potentially exist. Just as a continuous movement is an undivided whole and has no moments or parts, except when the movement is arrested either in reality or in thought (e.g. by counting it by time units), so time has neither moments (i.e. time points or instances of time) nor parts (i.e. measuring units), except when divided by the counting mind into parts. So according to St. Thomas there are no moments separated by an infinity of time between them in the supposition of an infinite past (or the eternity of the world), because these moments exist only potentially, and are only actualized by the counting mind. And, indeed, only the finite is countable. So every distance between two points on the timeline is always finite, even in the hypothesis of an eternal past.

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    3. Anonymous:

      That would makes sense as a response to a Zeno-like objection that time is an illusion and that it's impossible for time to pass because there are an infinite number of moments between any two moments in time that must be traversed, but it doesn't really address the unintelligibility of an infinite past backwards in time.

      It's true that the specific durations and moments we use to count and measure the passage of change are in our minds and not in nature per se, but unless one wants to go the Parmenides route, we are measuring something real and our measurements track the reality of change.

      And if the claim that the past is eternal means anything, it must mean that, regardless of whatever units we use to measure it, there are moments that occurred an infinite number of them ago. Otherwise, we're using the words "eternal" and "infinite" in a novel way without any real meaning or referent.

      Well, I guess you *could* be using them the same way we use them when we say that the future is infinite, namely that it's a *potential* infinite. After all, the future being merely potential is what makes it intelligible that all future moments will be a finite duration in time from the present even though the future is infinite.

      But the future is merely potential because time is the measure of change, and change is the progression from potential to actual. To claim that the past is merely potential is thus to claim that change goes from potential to actual in both directions, that I only *potentially* have grandfathers that were named Bob and George but that that could potentially change and so forth. But of course that *couldn't* potentially change and that's not how change works. And if we're positing some sort of "bidirectional" passage from potential to actual, we're simply not talking about change anymore, nor about time, and we're probably not talking about anything coherent at all.

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    4. Doesn't the conclusion that it is impossible to count to infinity result in the idea of infinity being false to begin with?

      Many calculus students will rejoice.

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    5. I’m unable to completely follow what you say, but I hope the following summary gets the gist of it and, if it does, I agree with it.

      [1] The past is all which happened before the present, and thus all of the past precedes the present. (This is what I said in an earlier post above.)

      [2] This implies that all of the past time had to be traversed in order to get to the present moment. For example, all past generations had to be traversed, one by one, in order to arrive at the present generation and all past revolutions of the heavens had to be traversed, one by one, in order to arrive at the present revolution.

      [3] If the past has no beginning, an infinite number of past generations or revolutions of the heavens had be traversed in order get at the present moment.

      [4] Since the infinite cannot be traversed, as is shown by Aquinas’ argument (in S.Th. I.46.2, ad 6) , the past has to be finite, which implies it has a beginning.

      Conclusion: The argument that there is no traversing between two points infinitely distant from each other, which is used by Aquinas to dismiss a major objection against the possibility of an infinite past, can be turned against him, in order to dismiss exactly the entire hypothesis of an infinite past as absurd.

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    6. The definition of infinite wrt counting is that it will go on forever without reaching an end. If I count backwards one number at a time I will never reach an end. If counting past events sequentially is time, then it seems possible that this counting process also could possibly never reach an end.

      When it is said that it is impossible to get two moments separated by an infinite duration and therefore it is impossible for there to have been an infinite past, it seems to me that an assumption has been made that infinity is an actual number that is one terminus of this separation of moments. I don't quite understand how infinity can be a terminus when it is defined as unending and so cannot be a terminus.

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    7. To bmiller

      Counting past events backwards sequently is not time. Time is the real sequence of these events. These events are countable by means of a measure of time, but the act of counting them doesn't constitute time, but presupposes it. Only being countable belongs to time itself, not the actual counting. Besides, counting backwards is counting opposite to the time direction. But the countability of time is primarily the possibility of counting time units in the direction they actually occur.

      In order for the past to be the past, all of it had to be traversed in order to get at the present moment, in the same manner as we now go through time, by traversing it continuously and in accordance with the time direction.

      The reason why the past cannot be infinite is precisely that it had to be completely and continuously traversed in order to get at the present moment, for the infinite cannot be traversed.

      The assumption is thus not that infinity is an actual number, but that (1) the past is simply all the time which went before the present and that (2) every bit of it must have been traversed in the same manner as we now go through time, or else it is not the past. These two assumptions make it unavoidable, as I see it, that time had a beginning and thus exclude the possibility of an infinite past.

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    8. Anonymous September 20, 2026 at 4:09 AM

      Thanks for taking the time to interact.

      If time is the real sequence of past events and those events can be counted, then if there were an infinite number of past events it seems we could say past time was infinite.

      I'm not clear how the argument from traversal works in relationship to this concept. It seems there is a hidden assumption that time is like a highway with a traveler that is traversing it. Shouldn't this concept be argued for rather than just assumed? The first question for me, is who is this traveler that is doing the traversing? Maybe I could be said to be a traveler doing the traversing but I certainly didn't do any traversing before I was born although events certainly happened before that. The hidden assumption then seems that there is some creature that has always experienced or traversed time but is not identified.

      See what I mean?

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    9. @Anonymous

      While I speak as one not opposed to a genuinely limited past, the logic thus far articulated is less than clear to me. Do I have to count all the negative numbers before I reach 0 only so that I might then start counting from 0 on upwards? And if not, why have we suddenly become at best conventionalists about numbers? Insofar as those of us with an Aritotelian sentiment take numbers as transcendentals, why not suppose time stands in relation to any such numeration in just this infinite or boundless sense, rather than as being dependent upon a conventionally derivative anthropomorphic sense as only ever potentially infinite and therefore ultimately finite? There is simply no inherent repugnance here. Does the infinite participate in us, or do we participate in the Infinite? The ask is not that humans either individually or collectively comprise the duration of time (or anything else) such that it is anything other than a category error to conceptualize about "traversal" through an actually infinite duration of time as proving anything, any more than that we must individually or collectively stand in relation to numbers such that we might first suppose ourselves capable of counting to infinity so as to be capable of arithmetic consisting, as it does, of an actual infinity of numbers.

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    10. It seems there is a hidden assumption that time is like a highway with a traveler that is traversing it.

      No, no such thing needs to be assumed. All we need is the observation that change occurs, that change is the actualization of potentials, and that the state of the material world changes as potential states of things are actualized and actual states of things go out of existence.

      When we speak of the present, we mean the state of things that are actual right now. When we speak of the future, we are referring to potential states of things that will be actualized by the present. When we speak of the past, we are referring to states of things that were once actual and that passed out of existence by actualizing the present.

      Next, we must assume that this process of change from potential future states to actual present state to previously actual past states is something that we can measure and quantify, and that our measurements are describing something objectively, mind-independently real, not just subjective self-referential impressions that exist purely in our own minds.

      In other words, we must assume that when we say that the universe is about 13 billion years old, or that it will reach total heat death in 10^100 years on its current trajectory, we are making real, meaningful statements about the external world, even though none of us were or will be present for either of the events described, and even though the particular units we use to quantify time (eg years) are a matter of human convention.

      All of this is common sense and should be uncontroversial, and in any event the same assumptions must be made for claims that the universe is infinitely old to have any meaning. If one wants to take some sort of post-modernist, hyper-nominalist position where our measures of time, and concepts like future and past and so forth, are purely subjective impressions or a language game without ontological referents, then of course there's no real fact of the matter or discussion to even be had about whether the universe is infinite or finite in time.

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    11. With that exposition out of the way, back to the point: We can see that the future ahead of us is infinite. Potential states will just keep being actualized forever. And yet, there will never come a future time that is infinitely many years (or whatever unit of quantification you wish to use) away from the present.

      (This doesn't depend on a "traveler" btw. Thought experiments about being immortal or cryogenically frozen or whatever are just meant to make this more intuitive, so don't get tripped up by them.)

      How can both of these things be true? Well, we already covered how. When we talk about time, we're talking about change (the actualization of potentials), and when we talk about the future, we're talking about potential states that will be actualized by the presently actual state. The future is thus a merely *potential* infinity, and the actualization of potential states never results in an infinite duration of time (in years or any other unit of denomination you may come up with) connecting one state and another in its past, but only increasingly large finite ones.

      But to say that that the past is *infinite* is to assert that this sort relationship of infinite duration that *doesn't* occur through the passage of time (that is, through the actualization of potential states by actual ones) *has* in fact occurred.

      But that means that in asserting an infinite past, you've implicitly changed the subject. You are no longer really talking about time. You are no longer really talking about the past. You are no longer talking about the same process of potentials being actualized that we are usually referring to when we use these words, and which doesn't result in infinite durations between two states in time. You are no longer talking about previously actual states of time that actualized the present through this finite process of change. You are talking about something else, assuming there is any referent at all for how you're using these words.

      And, I submit, the only coherent referent for "infinite past" would be an actual reality that actualized the universe in time, setting the process of change that we call "time" in motion, but is itself outside of time and so did not become de-actualized in the process the way the previously actual states we call "the past" did. In other words, it can only coherently be a reference to the Unmoved Mover (aka God), who is necessary to start time at the beginning in addition to actualizing change at every moment.

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    12. Deuce,

      Thanks for the reply. Your post doesn't rely on the traversal argument which I had difficulty with. I take it for granted that creation had a beginning so my questions are related to why Aquinas thought it could not be proven philosophically that the universe did have a beginning.

      Is it accurate to summarize your argument as this?

      The future can go on forever because it consists of potential states while the past cannot go on forever since it consisted of potential states that became actual states. A potential infinity of durations is possible but an actual infinity of durations is not.

      What about this counter argument?

      If presentism is true then the past does not actually exist and so no duration of past time is actual. If past time durations are not actual then the past is not a collection of actual things present simultaneously which was Aristotle's definition of an actual infinity .

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    13. bmiller:

      I think the most succinct way to state my argument is thus:

      "The passage of what we call time does not ever result in an infinite duration between a moment and any moment in its future no matter how much time passes, therefore if you claim that an infinite duration of time has passed since past moments, you simply aren't talking about time anymore. You've implicitly changed the subject and are talking about something else, if anything."

      It's not about actual infinite collections and whatnot. It's also not about change and potentiality per se. I just discussed the nature of change and potentiality because doing so explains the underlying reason WHY time has that characteristic of never reaching an infinite duration between one moment and another in its future, which then (I hope) makes it easier to get the argument.

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    14. Deuce,

      Thanks for bearing with me. I had spent some time in the past trying to understand Aristotle's take on time in Physics per the Aquinas Commentary. So I am trying to remember how Aquinas would handle this situation.

      An Anonymous above mentioned the ST that pertained to this question. Objection 6 and the answer to it look like what is the contention and the answer according to Aquinas:

      https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1046.htm#article2

      When I read it I see that he makes the point that when you pick one point in time and then another to form a duration of time it has to be finite. But if you use the present as one point and some point in the future (or past) any point you pick will not be the last (or first) point if time is infinite. This is so because there is no last or first point in an infinite series.

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    15. @Michael

      God does not know things from their existence—since it is He who, by His will, brings them into and preserves them in existence—but rather by knowing Himself, who pre-contains all the possibilities of being, through a simple and timeless act of knowledge. What kind of human freedom can we even speak of if you deny the Divine freedom to bring and preserve into being or not?

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  21. bmiller:

    I can't speak for why Aquinas reached that conclusion.

    The future has that quality (of being unbounded yet never reaching a moment that is an infinite duration from any moment in its past) because it is unactualized potential, as we've seen.

    Whatever we may say about the past's existence, meanwhile, the past is NOT potential. It is previously actual states of the world that were deactualized by actualizing the present. Because the present was actualized by the past, past events are "baked in" as facts about the present that are not subject to change, hence why it is a fact about me that my grandfathers were George and Bob and this has no potential to become different even though both men are no longer alive.

    So the *reason* that the future has that quality of being unbounded but never reaching a point that is an infinite duration of time from any previous moment (namely, its potentiality) simply doesn't apply to the past.

    So the suggestion that the past could have that same quality, of extending backwards to infinity but never actually "getting there," really only makes sense if the past is potential, and seems to amount to an assertion that this is the case.

    But to call the past potential is just to no longer be talking about the past, but to be using the word "past" to refer to the future, because time is the product of change, and by "future" we mean potential states of the world that will be actualized by the present through change and by "past" we mean previously actual states of the world that were deactualized by actualizing the present through change.

    And given that, the claim that the past is infinite means that there were moments in time that occurred an infinite duration ago, if it means anything at all. But that too is a change of subject, because time is not something that produces infinite durations between moments.

    My view is that this is a rare area where Thomas was just uncharacteristically wrong. Maybe he was being overly deferential to Aristotle.

    Aristotle, on the other hand, not only didn't think that the past was provably finite, he thought it was provably infinite. His reasoning was that there could be no first moment, because whatever state of the world actualized any putative first moment would have been deactualized in the process, making THAT the first moment, except it too would've been actualized by a moment that became deactualized in doing so, as infinitum.

    But Aristotle has already arrived at a concept of something that could resolve that paradox: the Unmoved Mover, who actualizes without being deactualized or changing in any way, so he should have taken that puzzle as indication that the Unmoved Mover actualized the first moment of time.

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    1. Deuce,

      And given that, the claim that the past is infinite means that there were moments in time that occurred an infinite duration ago, if it means anything at all. But that too is a change of subject, because time is not something that produces infinite durations between moments.


      I think the reply to Objection 6 pertains to this situation. It appears to me that Aquinas is saying that a duration of time is defined as the change between to different moments in time similar to the way selecting 2 points of a continuous line defines a line segment. Once one selects those 2 points the segment (or duration) has to be finite even if the line itself in infinite. So I think he would agree that it is impossible for there to be an infinite duration of time but that is because a duration requires 2 points to be identified and there can be no second point identified as the "infinity point" between the now and the then. It's the duration that is impossible due to the 2 point definition and not necessary the continuum itself.

      I certainly agree that STA could be wrong on this and I'm glad to have someone competent to discuss this with.

      Will try to look up if he wrote about this in more detail.

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    2. bmiller:

      Construing the passage of time as a matter of drawing two points on a line seems pretty clearly be an example of what you took issue with previously, namely the idea of defining time in terms of a person who has to (mentally) "traverse" it for it to pass. It seems also to conflate a mental model of time with time itself, not unlike some modern physicists who conclude either that time is infinite or that change is an illusion because time can be represented as an infinite line in their mathematical equations, and equations are abstract objects that don't change.

      Also, it seems pretty clearly to construe the past as a potential as I said earlier. Any line that appears in the physical world (say, drawn on the ground) is of course not actually infinite in either direction. It is merely *potentially* infinite in both directions, as people could potentially just keep extending it without limit.

      A line that is merely conceived in the mind, meanwhile, is *purely* potential. It has no more actual existence in any direction than does Santa Clause.

      So construing time as a line and durations of time as being like drawing points on it seems pretty clearly to be taking the past to have potential existence.

      But again, that's just not what "the past" means. It's a change of subject. The *future* is defined by its potentiality, and the past is defined in part by its non-potentiality.

      So to describe the past as potential is just a chane of subject. You're implicitly describing something other than the past, perhaps a model of the past that you're conflating with the real thing, or perhaps the eternal "pre-existence" of God the Unmoved Mover. Or perhaps it's just meaningless verbiage.

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    3. Deuce,

      I didn't take issue with a duration of time being defined as 2 different points in time, only the supposition that a single creature had to experience all elapsed time as an example for why time had to have a beginning. I don't know how else to define a duration of time. But if this is the definition of a duration of time then using an argument that uses an infinite duration as a premise is incoherent.

      Physics 4, chapter 11 is where Aristotle discusses time as a continuum related to motion but not motion itself and uses lines and points to illustrate the concepts:
      https://isidore.co/aquinas/Physics4.htm#11

      Here is where Aquinas discusses if it is possible that God could create something that always existed. He concludes that it is not impossible.
      https://isidore.co/aquinas/english/DeEternitateMundi.htm

      The Summa Contra Gentiles Book 2 Chapter 38 discusses the question of an eternal universe also. It seems he uses the same duration of time requiring 2 points to argue against the objection we were discussing here too:
      https://isidore.co/aquinas/ContraGentiles2.htm#38

      Finally, since we've all been around Dr Feser's site for a while we can't not have heard of the distinction Thomists make between series ordered per se and ordered accidentally. The sequential series of fathers begetting sons could possibly have had no beginning, but the per se series of causes at the present moment cannot go on to infinity. So it seems Thomists are heavily committed to the idea that philosophy alone cannot demonstrate that the world is not eternal.

      I'm not quite following your argument regarding potentials. Since presentists do not believe that the past exists, then of course it is not physical like a line drawn on the ground. A line conceived in the mind actually exists as an object of the mind and can be an infinitely long line unless one denies it is possible to conceive of such a thing. When I think of the future, it too is an actual object of the mind.

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    4. bmiller:

      Thomists do make a distinction between per se and accidental orderings of causes, and I think that is a correct distinction, but that doesn't imply that a past of infinite duration cannot be disproven. It just means that it can't be disproven in the same manner than an infinite regress of per se causes can.

      A Thomist could perfectly well accept a disproof by other means, and I think such a disproof is available.

      My point regarding potentials is that the illustrative analogies you gave of drawing points on lines only hold if the past is taken to be potential, and while the past may not exist per se, it is certainly NOT potential like the future is.

      I would deny that you can have an *actually* infinite line in your mind. You can have an actual concept of an infinite line, but it is the concept that is actual, not the line.

      Your example of thinking about the future actually helps to illustrate this. The future is potential, by definition. When you conceive of the future, your concept is actual, but the content of your concept (the future itself) is still potential.

      The same is true of your concept of a line. The concept is actual, but the line that you are conceiving of is merely potential, unless and until you actualize it (by actually drawing it, for instance), or unless you're conceiving of a line than has already been actualized.

      In the case of a concept of an *infinite* line, you can never actualize it, so it necessarily remains potential. It is no more actual just because you can conceive it than is the Easter Bunny.

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    5. Deuce,

      I agree that I have a concept in mind when I am thinking of an infinite line. It is an actual concept, but not a physically actual line (in fact one dimensional geometric figures cannot physically exit). In context, the concept of the line is being used to model how one can talk about the measurement of change due to a series of past events that occurred successively and no longer exist. So it's true that both the line and the past do not physically exist but exist as what Thomists call beings of reason. For presentists only the "now" actually exists so by definition the succession of past events cannot have an actual existence outside of a conceptual existence.

      From what I've read a further distinction can be made between fictional concepts like the Easter Bunny and objective concepts like the past, future and abstract truths.

      I think Thomists would agree that the concept of the future is the concept of a potential. The past is considered a memory derived from real events that no longer exist and things like lines and points fall under the abstract truths classification.

      So as I understand it, beings of reason actually exist but do not exist as physical things. So I wouldn't expect these beings of reason, like the past, to be subject to being potentially some other type of actuality.

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  22. In the hypothesis of an infinite past, there is always an infinite amount of events which already happened before any moment in the past which we can point to. This infinite amount of events didn’t come into existence in the same manner in which events come into existence in time as we now experience it. In our experience events come into existence by being generated by continuous increase or traversal of time. This couldn’t have been the way the infinite past, exactly qua infinite, came into existence, or if it did, the past would be finite.

    If one objects that this infinite past didn’t come into existence at all, but somehow simply ‘is there’, then this creates an asymmetry with the future. For the future comes into existence, becomes the presence and subsequently the past, by means of a continuous process of indefinite increase, i.e. just by the flow of time as we experience it. Because this cannot be the way how an infinity of time (i.e. the supposed infinity of the past) comes into existence, I conclude that this infinity of time and events isn’t really the past, or the past of the world as we know it. So how can it have the status of ‘past’ at all?

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    1. Anonymous September 24, 2026 at 10:33 AM,

      This infinite amount of events didn’t come into existence in the same manner in which events come into existence in time as we now experience it.

      Can you expand a little more why you think this is so? It seems to me whether the past was infinite or finite the experience would be the same.

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    2. The eternal past with its infinity of events didn't come into existence through a continuous process of increase, since an infinite amount of events already happened before any moment in the past which we can point to. This infinite reservoir of the past cannot be explained in a similar manner as now the growth of the past can be explained.

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    3. bmiller,
      I think I can translate anon's comment into something more concrete but stand open to correction. If you place an entity with its own proper time outside the boundary of a universe the time dilation is effectively infinite, and in that sense the entity can accurately be described from inside the universe as eternal. I’m specifically thinking of a case where a singularity somehow breaks the space-time fabric to create a new universe. In such a situation our universe could be derivative of whatever space-time modes exist beyond it and once "set in motion" became independent because of that relativistic barrier. This doesn’t address the question of what causes the possibility space for any universe but it may reconcile some of the language problems, since trying to describe what existed "before time" necessarily includes a time framework.

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    4. I'm not sure the anon above was talking about the idea of a multiverse but that would just move the question to whether the multiverse could have always existed.

      Since his last comment was to the effect that an infinite number of events would have had to have occurred before this now it seems to me the argument is related to what Deuce and I have been discussing.

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