Sunday, September 10, 2023

Hartshorne on the project of natural theology

Process theism denies some of the key attributes ascribed to God by classical theism, such as immutability and impassibility.  Charles Hartshorne (1897-2000) was among its chief representatives.  As a Thomist, I am the opposite of sympathetic to process theism.  However, I’ve always found Hartshorne an interesting thinker.  Many twentieth-century philosophers had a regrettable tendency toward overspecialization, and also often ignored all but a handful of thinkers of the past.  Hartshorne, by contrast, was a philosopher of the old-fashioned stripe.  He addressed a wide variety of philosophical problems, was deeply read in the history of philosophy, and that history informed his work on contemporary issues.  He was also old-fashioned insofar as his theism (flawed though it was from my point of view) was integral to his more general metaphysics and ethics.  Like the greatest thinkers of the past, Hartshorne knew that the question of God was at the very heart of philosophy, not something that could be ignored by any serious philosopher, or at best tacked on to an otherwise complete system.

Against fideism

Hartshorne spells out his general approach to natural theology in his book A Natural Theology for Our Time.  (You can read the book online here.)  Naturally, he addresses the divine attributes, and on that topic and others I deeply disagree with him.  But here I want to focus on some areas of agreement – particularly in his second chapter, wherein he discusses the traditional proofs of God’s existence.  He begins by noting that hostility to the very idea of such proofs comes from two quarters.  First, there is “the wish of some that theism should not find rational support because they prefer to go on disbelieving it” (p. 31).  More on them in a moment.  But second:

[It] derives[s]… partly from the wish of others that it should not find rational support because, they think, belief should be independent of secular reason and thus remain in the hands of preachers and theologians, or to speak more generously, belief should be a matter of faith.   “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.”  Never mind the reasoners, unless they too are pure in heart – and then their reason is not to the point. (Ibid.)

This fideistic attitude has been no less destructive of religious belief than the attacks of skeptics, and indeed has given aid and comfort to such attacks.  As Hartshorne goes on to write:

But how many persons are so very pure that they can believe even if they are aware that no reasoner thinks that reasoning favors belief?  And ought they to believe, on that supposition?  I incline to think (with Freud, for example) that the impossibility of any rational argument for belief, supposing it really obtained, would be a strong and quite rational argument against belief.  I suspect that most unbelievers agree with me here.  And so, officially, does the Roman Catholic Church. (pp. 31-32)

What Hartshorne has in mind in that last remark are condemnations of fideism like those issued by the First Vatican Council:

If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema…

If anyone says that divine revelation cannot be made credible by external signs, and that therefore men and women ought to be moved to faith only by each one's internal experience or private inspiration: let him be anathema.

If anyone says… that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema.

End quote.  The skeptic might scoff, supposing that the Magisterium of the Church is here trying to establish by fiat that God’s existence, the reality of miracles, and the like are demonstrable by reason.  But the Church is not trying to convince the skeptic here.  Rather, the Church is teaching the faithful that fideism is heretical.  And the reason is that fideism is destructive of faith, understood as believing something because it has been revealed by God.  For unless we can know by reason that God really does exist and really has revealed something, how can we, without self-deception, accept it on faith?  That does not entail that every Christian, or even very many of them, have to be capable of the sophisticated philosophical argumentation that goes into establishing the rational foundations of Christianity.  But some have to be able to do so.

To be sure, Hartshorne himself was not a specifically Christian philosopher, let alone a Catholic.  But that theology is and ought to be no less rational an enterprise than any other field of inquiry is an important piece of common ground.

The presuppositions of skepticism

Hartshorne also has important things to say about the other sort of critic of the very idea of theistic proofs, namely the skeptic.  He writes:

In considering proofs we must realize that if proofs have premises, so – unless they are purely and trivially formal – do criticisms of proofs… [S]ince divinity is not religiously conceived as a mere illustration of first principles but as somehow the first principle, the correlate of every interest and every meaning, it follows that any metaphysical assumption implicitly either expresses or contradicts theism.  It cannot be neutral toward it if it is on the metaphysical level of generality.  Only empirical issues are thus neutral.  Hence no theistic view can be criticized without at least implicit metaphysical commitments. (p. 32)

This is a very important insight, albeit one that needs unpacking.  Debate between atheism and theism often proceeds as if the burden of proof is all on the theist, and in particular as if the theist, but not the atheist, must make metaphysical presuppositions (about the nature of causation, teleology, the principle of sufficient reason, or whatever) that are likely to be as controversial as the conclusion he wishes to establish by means of them.  By contrast, the atheist, many seem to assume, proceeds from neutral ground and simply finds the arguments for theism, and for the broader metaphysical theses underlying such arguments, unpersuasive in light of premises that both sides have in common.

Hartshorne’s point is that the dispute is not really like this at all.  Objections to first cause arguments like Aquinas’s first two Ways typically presuppose, either explicitly or implicitly, views about the metaphysics of causation that are no less challengeable than Aquinas’s own.  Objections to arguments from contingency like Leibniz’s commonly make assumptions about the metaphysics of necessity, or about the nature and limits of explanation, that are no less contentious than the arguments themselves.  And so on.  Precisely because theism, properly understood, entails claims about ultimate explanation and the fundamental structure of reality, it is inevitable that the dispute between theism and atheism is going to entail broader metaphysical differences.  The dispute cannot be bracketed off from these broader questions, and the skeptic can no more pretend that his position is neutral about them than the theist can. 

Hence, as Hartshorne points out, Hume’s and Kant’s influential objections to the traditional theistic proofs each rest on broader metaphysical assumptions that are no less open to question than the proofs themselves are.  The same is true of contemporary objections that take for granted the metaphysical and methodological assumptions of scientism or naturalism.  As Hartshorne writes: “Thus the procedure does what the proofs are accused of doing.  It reaches a controversial conclusion by reasoning from premises equally controversial… it is as question-begging as it well could be” (p. 33).

Reasoning about God

A third theme in Hartshorne that is at least somewhat congenial from the Thomist point of view is his insistence on the need to avoid two extremes where reasoning about the existence and nature of God is concerned.  On the one hand, we must avoid speaking of God in a way that essentially reduces him to one entity alongside the others in creation, even if a very impressive one.  Here Hartshorne is deeply influenced by St. Anselm’s conception of God as that than which no greater can be conceived.  “God,” says Hartshorne, “must not be a mere, even the greatest, individual being; rather, he must also in some fashion coincide with being or reality as such or in general” (p. 34).

On the other hand, insists Hartshorne, though God is more than merely one individual entity alongside others, he is at least an individual, as opposed to an abstract universal.  And since “all rational argument presupposes rules, universal principles” under which the things being reasoned about fall as specific cases, “God must… be a case under [these] rules, he must be an individual being” (pp. 33-34).  Otherwise we couldn’t say anything about him at all.  So, while we must avoid the one extreme of implicitly reducing God to a creature by supposing that whatever is true of creaturely perfections must be true of him, we must also avoid the other extreme of putting God so far beyond what can be expressed in human language that we can know and say nothing about him at all.

The Thomist would, of course, make similar points.  On the one hand, for Aquinas God is not merely a being alongside others – something which merely participates in being, as all created things do – but is Subsistent Being Itself, precisely that in which all created beings participate.  God can also not be defined in the strictest sense in which other things can be, viz. by identifying a genus under which they fall and a differentia which distinguishes them from other species in the genus.  For as Being Itself, he falls under no genus.  In other ways too, God is radically unlike any created thing – he is pure actuality rather than a mixture of actual and potential, is absolutely simple or non-composite, and so on.

On the other hand, we can certainly explain what we mean when we use the word “God” and when we ascribe various attributes to him (omnipotence, omniscience, perfect goodness, and all the rest).  We can demonstrate his existence in a manner consistent with canons of logical inference.  And once having done so, we can validly draw further conclusions about the divine nature.  For the Thomist, the key to understanding how it is possible to speak of God in these ways despite his being so radically unlike the things of our experience is in the analogical use of language, as Aquinas and his followers understand that.

A key difference with Hartshorne is that from the Thomistic point of view, Hartshorne does not follow out the implications of the difference between God and created things with sufficient consistency.  Hence he models divine goodness and personhood too closely on the case of human beings, with the result that he concludes that God suffers, changes, and so on. 

Theistic proofs

From the Thomistic point of view, Hartshorne’s remarks about specific arguments for God’s existence are a mixed bag.  He presents an argument from practical reason, to the effect that “the idea of God is intrinsic to rational volition as such” (p. 48).  Though developed at some length, it still seems to me very sketchy and I’m not sure what to make of it.  It seems to me that it might be interpreted as an “argument from desire,” and as I’ve noted elsewhere, there is something to such arguments, even though I don’t think they are the most fundamental or powerful.

Hartshorne very briefly but sympathetically discuses arguments from contingency for a divine necessary being, though his approach is marred by his process theist position that God is in part contingent as well as necessary (differing from other things in that they are merely contingent).  Hartshorne is also well-known for defending a version of Anselm’s ontological proof, and in A Natural Theology for Our Time he remarks that “since God’s existence has an aspect of necessity, something like an ontological proof must be possible” (p. 50).  From a Thomist point of view, there is some truth to this insofar as, if we had a penetrating enough grasp of the divine essence, we would indeed be able to infer from it that God exists.  The trouble is that the human intellect does not in fact have such a grasp of the divine essence, so that God’s existence cannot be known by us by way of an ontological proof.  (I’ve discussed Anselm’s ontological argument here, Plantinga’s ontological argument here, and Aquinas’s view of the argument here and here.)

Hartshorne is also sympathetic to a variation on the teleological argument, and makes the following interesting remark:

This may be thought of as a form of the design argument for theism, which Thomas Aquinas more nearly correctly stated in my judgment, than he did any of the others.  (It was, as he stated it, rather far from the form of this argument which Kant refuted.  Here, as at not a few points, Kant was a rather ignorant man, considering the almost unlimited scope of his ambitions and claims as a critic of natural theology.) (pp. 49-50)

Hartshorne is referring here to Aquinas’s Fifth Way, and rightly distinguishing it from the sort of “design argument” critiqued by Hume and Kant and associated with William Paley.  I have discussed the differences, and the superiority of Aquinas’s argument to Paley’s, in many places, most systematically in this Nova et Vetera article.

About the more general question of how a theistic proof should proceed, Hartshorne remarks: “The bare question of the divine existence is purely nonempirical.  Hence empirical existential proofs in natural theology are bound to be fallacious.  Here I agree entirely with Hume and Kant” (p. 52).  This may seem to put him at odds with the Thomistic approach to theistic proofs, and odd given that, as I have just indicated, Hartshorne is sympathetic to cosmological and teleological arguments.  But Hartshorne makes it clear that he does not mean to rule out such arguments.  For they are by his lights “nonempirical” and “a priori” – terms he does not use in quite the way contemporary philosophers tend to do.

What Hartshorne seems to have in mind is that the starting points for sound theistic proofs must lie in truths that go deeper than any that might in principle be falsified by observation or experiment.  Here I think he is correct, but also that it is misleading to characterize such truths as “nonempirical” or “a priori.”  Consider, for example, the proposition that change occurs, which is the starting point for the Aristotelian proof from motion for the existence of a divine unmoved mover.  (This is not an argument Hartshorne himself could sympathize with given his rejection of divine immutability, but that is irrelevant to the present point.)  That change occurs is not a proposition that is falsifiable by observation or experiment, because any observation or experiment would itself involve change.  All the same, the proposition is known through experience, so that it is not plausibly characterized as “nonempirical” or “a priori.”  (Some Aristotelian philosophers of nature have labeled experience of this kind “pre-scientific experience,” because it involves knowledge that is genuinely experiential, but deeper than the knowledge of empirically falsifiable propositions that is the hallmark of scientific investigation.  I discuss this in Aristotle’s Revenge, at pp. 6-7 and 129-30.)

145 comments:

  1. OP,
    "What Hartshorne seems to have in mind is that the starting points for sound theistic proofs"
    There are none on offer.

    "Objections to first cause arguments like Aquinas’s first two Ways typically presuppose, either explicitly or implicitly, views about the metaphysics of causation that are no less challengeable than Aquinas’s own."
    False. The scientific view of causation has the evidence of observation to support it. The Aristotelian view of causation is negated by the findings of science, and instead relies on the non-disprovability of idle speculation.

    All causation is mutual at base. To assert otherwise contradicts observed evidence. It is thus a false equivalency to put the entirely speculative and anti-evidenced Aristotelian view on an equal footing with the universally evidenced view of causation as mutual at base.

    "Against fideism"
    We can agree on that much at least. Credit is due to Aquinas for his First Way begins with what is "manifest and evident to our senses" as his core analytical paradigm, not once making reference to any assertion of divine revelation.

    With what is now "manifest and evident to our senses" Aristotle has been shown to be wrong about nearly everything he asserted regarding motion, change, and causality. Thus, the First Way is unsound, suffering from invalid logic and false premises.

    But, at least Aquinas starts from what is "manifest and evident to our senses", so we at least have some common basis for analysis and communication.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Stardusty:

      All causation is mutual at base. To assert otherwise contradicts observed evidence.

      What a pity then that in your philosophical materialism there is no observed evidence of anything, but "subjective hallucinations in the brain". Which lends zero credibility to your rants about what's 'real' and 'not real', 'manifest' or not 'manifest'.

      Unless you lift the veil of perception that plagues materialism, your objections are meaningless. You can't 'debunk' nothing when your philosophy leads to skepticism about the external world. Because it's from said external world from where we draw conclusions about causation and science.

      So your worthless copy-pasting and your endless repetitions amount to nothing of philosophical value.

      Aristotle has been shown to be wrong about nearly everything he asserted regarding motion, change, and causality.

      By whom? Certainly not by you. You can't even prove that there's a world out there, independent of our perceptions. Neither did Newton disprove Aristotle, whose inertia is compatible with A-T. So, again, proved 'wrong' by whom?

      But, at least Aquinas starts from what is "manifest and evident to our senses", so we at least have some common basis for analysis and communication.

      There's no 'common basis' between between the realist and the "hallucinationist". The hylemorphist has access to the world. The "hallucinationist" doesn't. You can't even guarantee that we have senses, much less that they put us in contact with extra-mental reality or that they are reliable.

      Do better, Stardusty.

      Delete
    2. @Stardusty:

      All causation is mutual at base.

      False. When I look at my computer, it causes a visual perception on me, and yet my visual perception causes nothing in the computer.

      When a tree falls in my neighbor's backyard, it causes an auditive perception on me, and yet my auditive perception causes nothing in the tree nor in my neighbor's backyard*.

      To assert otherwise contradicts observed evidence.

      More like evidence contradicts your philosophical stupidities. All the time.

      *The tree that your side can't even prove is really out there, because you are locked inside your ignorant skulls and can't escape them. You can't prove that our perceptions are caused by anything at all, so your lessons about what Aristotle got or did not get wrong don't impress anyone around here.

      You first fix your philosophical system.

      Delete
    3. UcD
      September 11, 2023 at 7:35 AM

      @Stardusty:

      All causation is mutual at base.

      False. When I look at my computer ..."


      Yeah it's hard to figure out what he is even talking about.

      A volcano erupts on Sumatra, a news crew drives out to film the fireworks ...

      A long long time ago R.G. Collingwood wrote a an article on the different senses of "cause". A long while after that, but a long time ago as well, I was rambling through the stacks and came across what seemed to me to be his honest attempt to tease out the senses of "cause". One passage had to do with a car being driven off a curve in the road. What was the cause of the car crash?

      For some reason I remembered it as being in an old copy of the Monist, but was probably wrong.

      I don't think I have found that, but I did find this online. "On the So-Called Idea of Causation." Originally from, The Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society, 1938.

      Presented now, in The International Journal of Epidemiology.
      https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/43/6/1697/705179

      Anyway grasping those different senses and limits is obviously necessary for an historian.

      But as this comment section so well illustrates, certain others could do with a little careful reflection and analysis of the term too.

      A little more thinking, and lot less proclaiming on his part, and we might say it had done him some good. Or we might, if there were an objective sense of "good" admitted into in his reality.

      I wonder - but not very much - if "cause" is taken as having an objectively determinable meaning in his world?

      Delete
    4. @DNW:

      A volcano erupts on Sumatra, a news crew drives out to film the fireworks ...

      Reality about causation contradicts SD's absurdities all the time. He may find solace in the 'growing numbers' of his church, but that doesn't lend any support to his inane chit-chat.

      The sun causes me to get a tan, but my tan causes nothing in the sun.

      A Chaplin's movie causes me to laugh, but my laughter causes nothing in Chaplin (who has been dead for a long time).

      Gravity causes me to fall, and yet my fall causes nothing to gravity, which remains impasible and unaffected.

      David's Michelangelo causes a sense of awe in me, and yet my sense of awe causes nothing in the statue.

      Etc, etc...

      SD's tirades are absolutely ridiculous. That "all causation is mutual at base" is patently false. Even to 5-year-olds.

      Delete
    5. DNW,
      "Yeah it's hard to figure out what he is even talking about." (regarding the fact that all causation is mutual at base).

      This might provide some insights for you.

      On the Notion of Cause, with Applications
      to the Free-Will Problem"
      BERTRAND RUSSELL

      The pdf version is commonly posted as
      Russellcause.pdf
      That is searchable for your preferred source.
      Perhaps somewhat ironic is this reference in it.
      www. aristoteliansociety.org.uk

      Dr. Feser has published regarding some of the contents of that paper, if you are interested.

      In short, it means there is no such thing as a one way push, or pull.

      Another way of putting it is the simplification, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

      One of the more accessible formulations of this principle is the two body gravitational force equation, wherein mover and moved are indistinguishable and arbitrary and therefore meaningless.

      There is only the mutuality of their concurrent mutual causation.

      "On the So-Called Idea of Causation." also references that Russell paper briefly.

      The key qualifier in my statement that all causation is mutual at base, is the term "at base".

      Causation progresses, as it were, from the bottom up. Investigations into causal agents or causal actors commonly progress from the top down, or in a regression analysis.

      What caused the 8 ball to go into the pocket?
      The cue ball.
      Which was caused to move by the cue.
      Which was caused to move by the hand.
      Which was caused to move by the arm.
      Which was caused to move by the muscle.
      Which was caused to move mutual attraction and repulsion of charged particles.
      Terminus.

      Like gravity, the electrostatic force is mutual. There is no distinction between mover and moved, self moving or moving the other. There is only the mutual concurrent causation.

      The First Way purports to be a causal regression analysis. One of its great flaws is its failure to deal with the mutual causation case, which is sometimes expressed as a sort of causal topography that is in some sense circular.

      Aquinas failed by creating a false dichotomy of causal regression terminations, because he only dealt with the linear case.

      Later, Scotus made similar arguments for the existence of a first mover, but Scotus had an insight that Aquinas lacked, and thus Scotus did, in fact, attempt to deal with the circular case, so the argument of Scotus does not suffer from the same sort of false dichotomy that the First Way suffers from.

      However, the Scotus version of circularity is wrong because it is a one way circularity that neglects mutuality of causation. Thus Scotus also failed, but at least he made a better attempt than Aquinas.

      Every causal regression analysis terminates finitely in mutual causation, therefore making a first mover unnecessary, and thus making the First Way of Aquinas unsound.

      Delete
    6. SP, "all causation is mutual at base". The problem with such materialistic reductionism is that it doesn't account for what we actually observe. If causation were symmetric the universe would be an entirely static undifferentiated sea of "matter", without forms. So in order to consistently argue your case it's necessary that you reduce yourself out of existence, which surely serves as a reductio of your assertion.

      Delete
    7. @Stardusty:

      The First Way purports to be a causal regression analysis. One of its great flaws is its failure to deal with the mutual causation case, which is sometimes expressed as a sort of causal topography that is in some sense circular.

      "Rather, the First Cause argument begins with the simple observation that there are things in this universe (not ‘everything’ but simply most or all of the things we interact with on a daily basis) that cannot account for their own existence. While one such thing can cause another to come into being, such as a potter making a jar, there needs to be some terminus of existence."

      "Something must be holding up the whole system, or got it started in the first place. To claim that there is simply an infinite chain of such causes (“turtles, all the way down” as they say) makes no more sense than to say that an infinite chain of boxcars can pull a caboose down a railroad track without need of an engine on the front (because each boxcar is pulled by the one in front of it)".

      https://fidedubitandum.wordpress.com/2013/01/12/why-russell-was-wrong-i-the-first-cause-argument/

      The key term being "existence", because nothing can be the cause of its own existence. And because an infinite regress doesn't constitute an explanation.

      Aquinas failed by creating a false dichotomy of causal regression terminations, because he only dealt with the linear case.

      You fail to understand Aquinas' First Way, whose target is existential causation. And so did Russell. Physics studies systems that are already in existence, but those systems could not have caused themselves to exist. You are confusing scientific explanations with metaphysical explanations. Not a surprise, though. It's a common trait in the village atheists.

      Every causal regression analysis terminates finitely in mutual causation, therefore making a first mover unnecessary, and thus making the First Way of Aquinas unsound.

      False. There's no mutual causation in the emanation of being. It's an asymmetric process, and the basis of the First Way.

      You are not even addressing the correct premises.

      Delete
    8. @Stardusty:

      Whatever the merits of Russell’s case for causal anti-fundamentalism, today, there is a consensus against his causal eliminativism. First, Russell’s case for eliminativism is far from airtight. Although causation is tied to the idea of determination, the relationship between them is less direct and more complex than Russell makes it to be. Nor is an asymmetry in the laws the only possible source for a causal asymmetry (some alternative candidates will be discussed later). Second, one decisive argument against eliminativism is that causation is indispensable. Causation plays a crucial role in modern philosophical accounts of knowledge, reference, moral responsibility, and many other central concepts.Moreover, the special sciences (which Russell simply ignored in his discussion) are suffused with causal representations and explanations. Rejecting causation would lead to philosophical and scientific disaster.

      A claim that has received a significant amount of critical discussion is Russell’s contention that causal talk and reasoning play no useful role in physics. Many have taken issue with this claim, arguing that it embodies an inadequate and impoverished picture of scientific practice in physics.As has been repeatedly observed, physicists routinely use the word ‘cause’ in their work. Lange (2009) argues that like the special sciences, physics is also concerned with explaining why certain local events occur, and given the tight connection between causation and explanation this requires positing causal relations in physics.

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://inferenceproject.yale.edu/sites/default/files/blanchard2016_phil_compass_physics_and_causation.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiV5_jhu6eBAxXaTaQEHeDwB1g4ChAWegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw01pu-vf_DKc5d6xTt1NavT

      Delete
    9. @Stardusty:

      Finally, the debate about neo-Russellianism and the place of causation in physics is connected to larger issues in the metaphysics of science. One of them is the debate between categorical and dispositionalist or structuralist views of fundamental properties, on which scientific properties are individuated by their causal profiles. On this view, causal relations are built into the nature of physical properties themselves, even if they do not appear overtly in the laws.

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://inferenceproject.yale.edu/sites/default/files/blanchard2016_phil_compass_physics_and_causation.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiV5_jhu6eBAxXaTaQEHeDwB1g4ChAWegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw01pu-vf_DKc5d6xTt1NavT

      Russell doesn't have the last word on causation. You treating his paper with such reverence only shows that there's precious little you know about how philosophical argumentation works.

      Russell was wrong on both accounts:
      1) metaphysics
      2) philosophy of science

      And as Prof. Fewer has argued extensively, Physics doesn't exhaust reality. Drawing conclusions from Physics to other areas of human knowledge is not a legitimate move.

      Delete
    10. @UncommonDescent

      I read what Bertrand Russell said how schooling and English society ought to be organized. IMHO, he exceeded Freidrich Nietzsche in insanity.

      <a href="https://youtu.be/ohAf-GCruvk?si=xxofNEkOxJ-39C5x>Why Jung hated philosophers.</a>

      Delete
    11. Anon,
      "If causation were symmetric the universe would be an entirely static undifferentiated sea of "matter", without forms."
      Indeed, the smoothness, or lumpiness of the universe as it has expanded is a subject of scientific research.

      In a highly idealized, classically formulated, relatively simple simple system that started with perfectly symmetrical conditions and expanded with perfect symmetry about every axis and perfect uniformity as a continuous function, then, under such perfectly ideal conditions, yes, what you are saying would make sense.

      But those are not the conditions of the real big bang.

      The submicroscopic reality is not well modeled with the classical formulations of the 19th century. Quantum effects dominate particle physics.

      There are a variety of forces that interact in ways such that at large scales there can be clumping.

      Nobody knows what came before the big bang or what the initial conditions were at t0, so there is no requirement that the expansion began with perfect symmetry.

      The observed fact of modern physics is that the 4 known forces act mutually, and that causation arises from those forces.

      Thus, all causation is mutual at base, and the differentiation in the universe is accounted for by some combination of asymmetric initial conditions and quantum effects seeding anisotropy of the universe.

      Delete
    12. "You fail to understand Aquinas' First Way, whose target is existential causation."
      The First Way is based on the observation of motion, which is treated as a species of change, and thus, some would interpret the First Way to be more generally based on the observation of change.

      Dr. Feser has written, I say unsuccessfully, in an attempt to extend the First Way reasoning into the subject of first sustainer, or first creator, or first emanator of being.

      So, no, Aquinas was not addressing existential causation in the First Way, rather, he was addressing motion, and in the process made the false assertion that motion is a species of change.

      But, putting aside, for the moment, your erroneous assertion that the First Way is an argument from existential causation, there is no call for a first emanator to account for existential inertia.

      Existential inertia is no change.

      There is no call for a changer to account for no change.

      If material were to spontaneously disappear then that would be a change calling for a changer. Thus, asserting spontaneous self change (from existing to not existing) absent the actions of a first changer, all to account for no change is unnecessary to say the least, I would say convoluted and superfluous.

      If there is X material at t1, and there is X material at t2, then there is no existential change in X material from t1 to t2, and therefore no call for an existential changer, or actor, or sustainer, or emanator.

      The argument from observed existential inertia is moot before it even begins.

      Delete
    13. @Stardusty:

      The First Way is based on the observation of motion, which is treated as a species of change

      No. Motion is not a 'species' of change. Motion = change = actualization of a potential.

      'Local' motion would be a species of change. But thanks again for proving that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Which is pretty obvious, btw.

      Dr. Feser has written, I say unsuccessfully, in an attempt to extend the First Way reasoning into the subject of first sustainer, or first creator, or first emanator of being.

      You may say whatever, but what counts is that you are not proving him wrong. Creatures (contingent beings) are always in potency towards:
      a) non-being (to cease existing)
      b) keep existing (and there has to be a Prime Actualizer that constantly actualizes said potentials). An actualization of a potential is change, and change is motion. Hence the name of 'Argument from Motion'.

      To prove Prof. Feser wrong, you would need to argue in favor of Existential Inertia.

      So, no, Aquinas was not addressing existential causation in the First Way, rather, he was addressing motion, and in the process made the false assertion that motion is a species of change.

      He never said that motion is a species of change. He said that motion IS change IS the actualization of a potential. Don't pretend you are an expert on Aquinas, because it's obvious you don't know what you are talking about. For Aquinas, to take away the actual is to take away the potential. Prof. Feser's point about Aquinas addressing existential causation stands.

      But, putting aside, for the moment, your erroneous assertion that the First Way is an argument from existential causation,

      It's not erroneous, and you certainly aren't proving me wrong.

      Existential inertia is no change.

      Existential inertia doesn't make sense for contingent beings. That's why they are contingent (and not necessary). There's no proof that the Universe had to exist necessarily.

      If there is X material at t1, and there is X material at t2, then there is no existential change in X material from t1 to t2, and therefore no call for an existential changer, or actor, or sustainer, or emanator.

      Wrong. At every moment, the potentialities of matter to keep existing are actualized from the First Actualizer. Any actualization of a potential is a change, is a motion. Again, you would need to argue in favor of existential inertia to 'debunk' Feser. Just asserting EI doesn't count.

      The argument from observed existential inertia is moot before it even begins.

      Nope. What is moot is your very feeble argumentation.

      Delete
    14. @Stardusty:

      Nobody knows what came before the big bang

      Oh really? But your side 'knows' that no God was involved.

      Another one of those little contradictions in which your side indulges all the time, I guess?

      Delete
    15. You write: "The scientific view of causation has the evidence of observation to support it." What the hell is "scientific view of causation?" How does that differ from, well, causation.

      Delete
    16. Stardusty, when you say "All causation is mutual at base.", it's embarassing, and you prove it false. :(

      For if it was true, the simple fact of you reflecting on intelligent texts would produce an intelligent response -- sadly, all you produce is meaningless stupidity in response.

      QED, I guess.

      Delete
    17. Anon,
      "What the hell is "scientific view of causation?"
      Processes of material proceed by the 4 forces of nature, all of which act mutually.

      "How does that differ from, well, causation."
      In folk causation whole collections of material are commonly given titles such as "cause" or "effect" or "instrument".

      In folk causation the mutuality of causation is commonly ignored, rather, a one-way causal series is imagined. That unrealistic imagined one-way causation leads to a malformed regression analysis wherein the proponent of folk causation seeks out a first cause or a first mover.

      ""All causation is mutual at base.", it's embarassing, and you prove it false. :("
      Does the gravitational force equation embarrass you?
      F=G*m1*m2/r^2

      How about the electrostatic force formula?
      F=k*q1*q2/r^2

      So, by all means, please tell me, which is the mover and which is the moved? Is it q1, or q2?

      Which is which, mover or moved? Is q1 the mover, or is q2 the mover?

      Which is moved? Is q1 moved or is q2 moved?

      Do these questions embarrass you?

      A common regression analysis example in AT is the hand-stick-rock example. Invariably, the analyst stops the regression analysis prematurely and just declares this cannot go on to infinity and therefore, supposedly, a first mover must be the case, since there is a presumed dichotomy of terminations to the regression analysis and an infinity of one-way causes is irrational.

      The real regression goes more like this:
      Rock
      Stick
      Hand
      Arm
      Tendon
      Muscle
      Muscle cell
      Sliding filaments
      Charged particles that slide the filaments
      F=k*q1*q2/r^2
      Terminus

      The base of causation is the terminus of our causal regression analysis, which in this case is the mutual forces between charged particles in the muscles.

      Thus, as always, causation is mutual at base.

      Delete
    18. The real regression goes more like this:
      Rock
      Stick
      Hand
      Arm
      Tendon
      Muscle
      Muscle cell
      Sliding filaments
      Charged particles that slide the filaments
      F=k*q1*q2/r^2
      Terminus


      Gee. If that equation caused the rock to move then why isn't it causing the charged particles in my body and everyone else's to move rocks continuously?

      I pretty sure most grade-schoolers could have figured that much out.

      Delete
    19. @SD:

      Processes of material proceed by the 4 forces of nature, all of which act mutually.

      There is not a 'scientific' view of causation. Causation is a metaphysical concept, not an empirical one. Science doesn't decide what a 'cause' is. Metaphysics does. And materialists are especially bad at metaphysics.

      In folk causation whole collections of material are commonly given titles such as "cause" or "effect" or "instrument".

      But you say that the 4 forces of nature are the cause of the mathematical formulation that, paradoxically as it may sound (and it sounds profoundly stupid), prove that causation isn't real. The nature of those 4 forces is the CAUSE of the mathematical interpretation (and not the reverse: the mathematical formulation doesn't cause the behavior of the particles). Again, you contradict your premises. We can distinguish between cause and effect. The world causes our understanding of its behavior and it causes us to model it via mathematical abstractions. Our understanding doesn't cause the world to behave as it does.

      Cause and effect. Asymmetry in nature. Causation is a real feature of the World.

      'Folk'. Lol.

      Does the gravitational force equation embarrass you?

      You have to prove that an equation is a faithful representation of the way the world really behaves, and that in said representation there are not important bits and pieces that are left behind. As Prof. Feser has argued, you can create a mathematical formula to represent the passengers of a plane and the average weight the plane carries, but in that abstractive process there's a lot of information that is left behind, but that is very real nonetheless.

      Physics is not the arbiter of causation.

      So, by all means, please tell me, which is the mover and which is the moved? Is it q1, or q2.

      There's more to life and to the world than the mathematical representations of physical forces. That causation doesn't appear in the model doesn't mean it's not there. It just means that models are limited most of the time (we humans are limited and can't process infinite amounts of information). Our models reflect our intrinsic limits.

      Invariably, the analyst stops the regression analysis prematurely and just declares this cannot go on to infinity and therefore, supposedly, a first mover must be the case,

      An infinite regress means that nothing ever began to exist. If nothing began to exist, then the Universe could not be actual. At some point you need to stop the regress. There has to be 'something' that exists without needing any external intervention.

      It's not premature. It's logically necessitated.

      Delete
    20. bmiller,
      "Gee. If that equation caused the rock to move then why isn't it causing the charged particles in my body and everyone else's to move rocks continuously?"
      It does, or rather, that which the equation describes does.

      You are moving continuously. So is every rock, and every object in the cosmos.

      The forces described by that equation play an important role in the specifics of the perpetual motion of the material in the cosmos.

      Other equations describe other aspects of motion. However, it is certain that all the equations combined still are not comprehensive descriptions, only partial, because human beings are finite and remain largely ignorant of the true nature of the underlying reality.

      The word "arm" is descriptive, it is not the thing itself. The equation is descriptive, it is not the thing itself. All the symbols employed in the list are descriptive, not the things themselves.

      Delete
    21. Invariably, the analyst stops the regression analysis prematurely and just declares this cannot go on to infinity and therefore, supposedly, a first mover must be the case,

      "An infinite regress means that nothing ever began to exist."

      You are conflating, to use the AT parlance, per accidens in place of per se regression analysis.

      The classic AT example of rock-stick-hand is intended to illustrate so called per se causation.

      You confused that so called per se causation with a temporal regress to a past beginning.

      You seem unfamiliar with AT argumentation in general. You mixed up the First Way as an existential argument and now you mixed up the rock-stick-hand example as a per accidens argument.

      Delete
    22. Stardusty,

      It does, or rather, that which the equation describes does.

      Don't know about you, but I'm not presently pushing a rock with at stick and no one around me is either.

      Infants learn pretty early that they can push things around when they want to. If you want deny to this in public be my guest. It gives readers a good insight at how funny materialist explanations look when exposed to simple questions.

      Delete
    23. @SD:

      It does, or rather, that which the equation describes does.

      Bmiller mentioned the equation, not what it represents. A photograph of me is not 'me'. Don't play silly games. You are just weakening your already very weak position.

      You are moving continuously. So is every rock, and every object in the cosmos

      Nope. Movement could be an illusion. You have to prove that movement is a real feature of the cosmos.

      Other equations describe other aspects of motion. However, it is certain that all the equations combined still are not comprehensive descriptions, only partial, because human beings are finite and remain largely ignorant of the true nature of the underlying reality.

      If we remain largely ignorant, then you can't assert that the representations are not accurate. You are asserting that we both know and don't know the underlying reality at the same time. But you contradict yourself all the time, like all poor thinkers do. To make comparisons, you need to know both terms or the comparison becomes utter non-sense.

      The equation is descriptive, it is not the thing itself.

      Same as above. You are saying that we know the 'thing' well enough to assert that the representation is not 100% accurate. And yet you affirm that the 'thing' can't be reached due to our limitations. That was Kant's error. There's an internal contradiction in your positions that renders them logically invalid. And you are using the word 'nature', which according to your materialism isn't even real.

      St. Thomas would have had slapped Kant in the face. With you, he probably wouldn't have bothered.

      But thanks for proving that materialism is irrational.

      Delete
    24. @SD:

      The classic AT example of rock-stick-hand is intended to illustrate so called per se causation.

      Rocks don't have the capability of moving themselves. Contingent beings don't have the capability of causing their own existence.

      You confused that so called per se causation with a temporal regress to a past beginning.

      A temporal regress solves nothing. Aquinas entertained the possibility of the Universe being eternal, but NEVER uncaused. Again, because only Being Itself can cause the existence of others than Itself. Even if science were to prove that the Universe is eternal, it would not prove that it was uncaused.

      You seem unfamiliar with AT argumentation in general. You mixed up the First Way as an existential argument and now you mixed up the rock-stick-hand example as a per accidens argument.

      Yep. Coming from the guy that doesn't even understand the meaning of 'motion'. I am familiar with Prof. Feser's work, which is excellent and which you haven't debunked with any of your feeble arguments.

      (The First Way) It’s rather an argument from the sheer existence of things to the conclusion that the Unmoved Mover must keep them in existence, and then a combination of this result with the principle agere sequitur esse to yield the further result that the activity of things, and thus their bringing about of change, requires divine concurrence.
      Stardusty is wrong, as always.

      No change without existence. And no existence without the First Actualizer.

      Delete
    25. Stardusty,

      You claimed your equation was the terminus of the causal chain. Now you want to claim it's something else? What exactly?

      You are moving continuously. So is every rock, and every object in the cosmos.

      But I am not moving a rock now because I don't want to. If I want to, I will move a rock. Your equation will be same before and after I move the rock, but the rock will only move because I push it.

      The forces described by that equation play an important role in the specifics of the perpetual motion of the material in the cosmos.

      But I am not moving a rock because I don't want to. If I want to, I will move a rock. And it is anti-scientific to claim perpetual motion.

      Other equations describe other aspects of motion. However, it is certain that all the equations combined still are not comprehensive descriptions, only partial, because human beings are finite and remain largely ignorant of the true nature of the underlying reality.

      You claimed your equation (or its constituents...or who knows what now)was the terminus of the causal chain of a man moving a rock. You're acknowledging you were wrong.

      The word "arm" is descriptive, it is not the thing itself.

      Looks like the fallacy of "Resorting to Woo".

      Delete
  2. That second point is very close to one of the key factors that catalyzed my return to the Church. In my school age years, I researched arguments for God’s existence, found objections to them and concluded that they more or less seemed to work if you accepted certain metaphysical premises, but justifying all those metaphysical premises beyond any sort of doubt was more or less impossible, so I couldn’t be confident in the conclusion of the argument.

    It was only years later that I realized (through coming in contact with the first hand work of people like Dr. Feser) that I actually had stopped halfway in my intellectual pursuit because I was asking the wrong question. It isn’t good enough to ask “Does God exist?” I should have been instead asking “what is the most correct and coherent metaphysical picture?” Because the metaphysical picture of things that must be the case if God does not exist is itself also subject to possible objections. So if those objections are at least as strong against that metaphysical picture as the objections to arguments for God’s existence are to the theistic one, skepticism no longer dictates agnosticism.

    ReplyDelete
  3. ...belief should be independent of secular reason and thus remain in the hands of preachers and theologians, or to speak more generously, belief should be a matter of faith.

    And belief is the only route left to the materialists (be it 'ancient' or 'modern' ones).

    There's no way for them to prove that extra-mental reality is really out there, we just have to believe that 'matter' exists and that it affects our external senses and that it conditions our lives.

    The materialist is nothing but a priest that clothes himself with the cloak of 'science' to lend credibility to his message. He promises, hopes and decrees norms of behavior based on said belief, a belief that is not provable, neither via philosophical argument nor by scientific 'experiment'.

    Society is no less religious today than it was before. It's just that society has changed what it did perceive as a 'myth', for another.

    We must face up to the fact that mainstream Physicalism is not only a fiction, but one that isn’t even convenient anymore.

    As a matter of fact, it isn’t a secret that the founders of the Enlightenment were well aware that Physicalism was a political weapon first and foremost, not a plausible account of the nature of reality.

    - Bernardo Kastrup, author of Why Materialism is Balooney.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. WCB

      Philosophy was founded by Thales, who was a naturalist.

      WCB

      Delete
    2. @WCB:

      Totally irrelevant. Being the founder of a discipline doesn't make your philosophical outlook true.

      And specially since 'naturalism' leads to skepticism about the external world and about our capacities to understand what happens out there.

      We have to believe that there's 'something' that corresponds to 'matter' out there, although the materialist makes a very poor job at convincing us that that's true.

      The materialist is a fideist. He believes in 'matter'. But philosophy demands proofs, not 'beliefs'.

      Delete
    3. WCB

      Not irrevelant. Thales would have been very familiar with the numerous creation tall tales of his era among various cultures. None of which had the faintest evidence for their existence. Gods were no explanation. And abandoned.

      And today's major religions with their perfect being, omni-everything gods have so many logical problems, like Thales we can ignore them as explaining anything. Today, we are essentially still at the point of Thale's theological skepticism.

      WCB

      Delete
    4. @WCB:

      Gods were no explanation

      Not all "Gods" are the same. And not being the same, they don't have the same explanatory value. For example, the "Gods" of Thales were not the God of Aquinas. "God" it's not an omnibus term.

      And today's major religions with their perfect being, omni-everything gods have so many logical problems

      Maybe you should take care of the logical problems of your materialism, which are plenty. For example, how can materialism explain nothing about a reality that by your own premises can't even be reached (the problem of skepticism). Which remember, is not a problem for the hylemorphist.

      So before proclaiming yourself a "champion for reality", maybe you should take a look at what your system entails.

      Delete
    5. @WCB:

      Your negative to answer my questions about skepticism is very telling.

      You probably know that's an irresoluble problem for materialism. And you probably believe that by tip-toeing around it, no one will notice.

      Same for Stardusty.

      Ignoring materialism is probably the best course of action.

      Delete
    6. WCB, I wonder if you see the difference between the "Gods" that Thales fought with his "naturalism", and the God of classical theism.

      Interestingly enough, Thales' path (and the path of the first philosopher) was to fight "mythos" (mythology) with... logos, unifying things under a First Principle. Ergo... well.

      As Feser said, philosophy was invented not to be LESS religious, but to be RIGHT religious.

      And be careful if you dare bring the ol' materialist of Greece. Some, like Democritus, just made a confused materialistic theory of things, riddled with paradoxes, and, when they saw the amount of absurdity it required, just shrugged and laughed at it. Impressively enough, it hasn't changed much: either materialists spout absurdity in the hopes that their self-contradictory beliefs are... believed, somewhat; either they arrange the "bad corners", ending up in prototheism or proto-hylemorphism game. Read how Epicurus or Lucretius "fixed" atomism, introducing things like "clinamen" or a proto-theory of forms.

      This is the fruit of materialism : rotten at its core, and filled with concepts that it incoherently stole from theism to survive.

      Delete
    7. @ Anonymous:

      This is the fruit of materialism : rotten at its core, and filled with concepts that it incoherently stole from theism to survive.

      Such an accurate description. Materialism is non-sense that hides itself behind 'science' to avoid being challenged. Bad philosophy that wants to shield itself from the utter absurdities it entails.

      Delete
  4. Is there a list of the questionable positions or commitments the atheists have to embrace as a result of their rejection of theism?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Tim,
      Yes, I can give it to you as a set.

      {}

      Well, to be fair, you have not been precise in your definitions of "questionable" or "commitments".

      Commitments are not required to not believe there is a god. All you need is to not believe it. It's not as though belief in god is some sort of default belief, or something that must be disproved, or some sort of inevitability of human thought.

      If you don't believe there is a god then you have met the baseline state of mind to be an atheist.

      I also do not believe I am the center of the universe, and I do not believe I am the entirety of the cosmos.

      If by "commitment" you mean the assertion that X absolutely must be the case and is immune to even the most unevidenced counter speculation then each of us, atheist or not, logically comes down to cogito ergo sum.

      I can't actually prove I am not the entirety of the cosmos. Sure, I can speculate that all that exists is my thoughts, nothing else. In that case all I perceive as reality is just a pure fantasy, except my own existence in some form.

      The naturalist who is personally convinced of the egotistical absurdity of that speculation, of ones thoughts being the entirety of the cosmos, does not need a "commitment" to naturalism, just a provisional postulate.

      Sure, I cannot prove I am not god having a very vivid dream, all I can do is provisionally postulate that seems like egocentric megalomaniacal nonsense, and that the material world I perceive seems very real.

      To those who say all that exists are thoughts, and how wonderfully simple that model is and how extravagant it is to suggest the perceived material cosmos is ontologically real, well, OK, by all means, hold your breath, permanently, after all, air as a real material necessity for your real material life is just a figment of your idealistic imagination.

      If instead, you choose to provisionally postulate that your senses do provide some fair indication of an ontologically real external existence then we can proceed as Aquinas did, from what is "manifest and evident to our senses".

      That is the core basis of Thomism, the physicalist starting point of observation and reasoning. Aquinas starts by treating that which we sense as ontologically real.

      So, apparently, one can be convinced of the ontological reality of the external existence we sense, and deduce either atheism or theism.

      The difference between a Thomist and a naturalist is that the Thomist is convinced that there is, in addition to the material reality we sense, also an ontologically real immaterial existence, whatever that is supposed to mean.

      The naturalist rejects that additional speculation of the immaterial as unevidenced, unnecessary, and even incoherent.

      The naturalist view is strengthened by the fact that the Five Ways of Aquinas are all unsound, the First Way suffering from invalid logic and false premises.

      Delete
    2. @Stardust_Psyche, I have a question. Do you agree that each thing that exists must in some sense be one? Not that each thing is just "one thing" in some naive sense, but that each thing must be individuated in order to be said to exist at all?

      Delete
    3. @Stardusty:

      The naturalist who is personally convinced of the egotistical absurdity of that speculation

      But saying that it's an 'egotistical absurdity' does not constitute any kind of proof that he is not trapped inside his head.

      The important part is this (as you have mentioned):

      I can't actually prove I am not the entirety of the cosmos.

      Exactly. With a materialistic/idealistic metaphysics, you can't. You need an alternative, one which allows you to transcend your thoughts and to prove that those thoughts are directed towards something, that 'something' being an extra-mental reality that is not created by ourselves, but that is apprehended by our cognitive apparatuses. Or, in other words, a theory of INTENTIONALITY. And that's something that the Thomist has no problem with. Intentionality helps us transcend the domain of our thoughts and to reach beyond ourselves.

      all I can do is provisionally postulate that seems like egocentric megalomaniacal nonsense

      But you can't escape your subjective perceptions, so none of that constitutes any proof that there's really an extra-mental world. Using expressions like 'megalomaniac non-sense' doesn't help your cause. Extra-mental reality keeps being an elusive prize for the materialist/ idealist.

      So, apparently, one can be convinced of the ontological reality of the external existence we sense, and deduce either atheism or theism.

      St. Thomas offered arguments to support his position. He wasn't just 'convinced'. The core of his realist doctrine was the act/potency division. A division that the materialist rejects, and which makes him plunge into skepticism/ "hallucinationism".

      The naturalist rejects that additional speculation of the immaterial as unevidenced, unnecessary, and even incoherent.

      The naturalist, as you have said, can't prove that he has access to the external world, so all his inferences about said external world lack any rational basis. You can't make inferences about what you don't have access to. Simply as that. The incoherence is on your part.

      The naturalist view is strengthened by the fact that the Five Ways of Aquinas are all unsound, the First Way suffering from invalid logic and false premises

      The naturalist is reduced to being trapped inside his skull/thoughts, being the least indicated to correct Aquinas, who postulated mechanisms that put us in contact with the world external to our minds. That's why he trusted human senses, the same senses that become suspect under materialism.

      So your side has nothing to offer, except speculation and baseless assertions. And the external world keeps remaining a mystery to your side.

      Delete
    4. Richard,
      "Do you agree that each thing that exists must in some sense be one?"
      Interesting question.

      The answer might depend on how one defines, precisely, the terms employed.

      If we say a thing exists, yet what we say is a thing is not actually separated from what we say are other things then our assertion that each thing exists is malformed in that what we say are separate things are not really separate.

      Separate or not, the substance of which those things are composed, exists.

      Suppose a particle of type P is here, and another particle of type P is there, and suppose that there is zero of type P stuff in between those particles. Then they are separate from each other.

      It is an open question as to the fundamental separation of what we consider to be material objects. On one view fields are fluidlike substances that permeate the cosmos, and particles are just localized concentrations of oscillations of those fields.

      On that view, only the entirety of the field exists , and what we think of as separate entities would just be localized variations in the universally connected field.

      More colloquially, we tend to think of ordinary objects as existing as such, without too much thought about the possibility that they might actually be connected in some way.

      Does a brick wall exist, or is it only the bricks that exist, arranged wall-wise? I suppose that depends how one defines "exist".

      On one of my feeds I saw "Aquinas on One and Many" by Gyula Klima.
      https://www.academia.edu/18867863/Aquinas_on_One_and_Many?email_work_card=view-paper

      You might be interested, for myself, I find Klima insufferably diffuse.

      Any particular reason you ask, I mean, are you thinking this subject or distinction is an important precursor to some greater argument?


      Delete
    5. Ok, SP, I get it now. When Dr. Feser postulates the existence of something which, according to you, he has not sufficiently demonstrated from first principles, those things should be discarded as unevidenced, unnecessary and incoherent. But when you postulate the existence of something which you yourself admit you cannot demonstrate from first principles, all you’re doing is rejecting what you perceive to be nonsense. Got it.

      Delete
    6. @Stardust_Psyche, no. Connection and separation imply individuation, such that you can tell two things are connected or separate. So you seem to be pre-supposing individuation. Perhaps you agree that for each thing to exist it must in some sense be one?

      Delete
    7. @ Stardusty:

      Separate or not, the substance of which those things are composed, exists.

      'Exists' where? In the external world or inside our heads? If everything is a "hallucination", how can we distinguish real existence from "hallucinated" existence? By which test? With the help of another "neuronal hallucination"? That solves nothing.

      On that view, only the entirety of the field exists , and what we think of as separate entities would just be localized variations in the universally connected field.

      What a crank. If there are not separate entities that exist apart from how we conceive/ think of them, then science would become an impossibility. For example, it's not whales which evolve, it's just whales and the water that surrounds them which truly evolves, so now water has to be included in Darwin's theory of evolution. Whales+ water are the true unit of evolution. Or maybe it's the whole Gaia that evolves, which would also overturn Darwin's theory. There's just a massive super-organism that is undergoing evolution, and not isolated, atomized species. Because any division of matter would be equally valid to the anti-science brigade.
      Any "hallucination" has the same validity in the scheme of the anti-realist. All is arbitrary, and so are scientific findings.

      Does a brick wall exist, or is it only the bricks that exist, arranged wall-wise?

      Lol. They are the same. A wall-wise arranged group of bricks is precisely what we call a 'wall of bricks'.

      We could use another term (not 'wall'), but that would not change the fact that there's a specific arrangement of bricks that is not natural but man-made. Both the bricks and their non-natural arrangement exist.

      Suppose a particle of type P is here, and another particle of type P is there,

      And who says that particles are 'real' and not just a projection of our minds? Who says there's something that objectively corresponds to 'here' and 'there'? Lol. You're an anti-realist. Why should anyone believe anything you have to say about how the world is REALLY constituted?

      Just say you hate science. Your materialistic non-sense is not compatible with the practice of science. Anything goes and you can't secure the findings of our rational faculties.

      Delete
    8. Hartshorne, in the OP:

      Hence no theistic view can be criticized without at least implicit metaphysical commitments. (p. 32)

      Feser, commenting:

      Precisely because theism, properly understood, entails claims about ultimate explanation and the fundamental structure of reality, it is inevitable that the dispute between theism and atheism is going to entail broader metaphysical differences. The dispute cannot be bracketed off from these broader questions, and the skeptic can no more pretend that his position is neutral about them than the theist can.

      Tim the White asks:

      Is there a list of the questionable positions or commitments the atheists have to embrace as a result of their rejection of theism?

      Stardusty responds:

      Tim,
      Yes, I can give it to you as a set.

      {}


      And after this brilliant closure, he magnanimously adds

      Commitments are not required to not believe there is a god. All you need is to not believe it.

      There you have it: In the face of world-class philosophers arguing that even atheists have metaphysical commitments, can't not have them, (certainly, you can't argue effectively without them), the star-class Stardusky tells us "we don't need no stinkin' commitments". And for "argument", thank goodness he illustrates that it is true, he at least doesn't have any commitments to logic, or principles of reason such as "what kinds of things constitute evidence", or any of that stuff. No commitments to admit error when something is demonstrated, wrong, or nor to stop asserting such errors in later conversations. Presumably no commitments to evidence, because they would require prior commitments to logic and such. He doesn't have any commitments to them because he doesn't hold to any logic, or principles of reason, etc. He also doesn't have any commitments to shut up when he has nothing to say. No commitments at all. No standards, either. Nope, commitments and standards are on the dungheap of history, I guess.

      And people respond to this guy, why?

      Delete
    9. Anon,
      "Got it."
      Got what, exactly? I mean, other than unspecified generalities.

      Delete
    10. Anon,
      "In the face of world-class philosophers arguing"
      Who cares about "world class" in terms of correctness? Equally "world class" philosophers emphatically disagree, so some, or all, must be incorrect in spite of their "world class" status.

      "even atheists have metaphysical commitments,"
      They might, but explicit metaphysical commitments are not required to be an atheist.

      "(certainly, you can't argue effectively without them)"
      Effective argument is not required to be an atheist.

      "Stardusky tells us "we don't need no stinkin' commitments""
      That would be a colorful way of putting it.

      An atheist might not have even considered metaphysics at all, or perhaps only holds metaphysical conditions as uncommitted postulates or open questions.

      Other atheists might be strong believers in certain metaphysical claims.

      Just depends on the individual atheist.

      "No commitments to admit error when something is demonstrated, wrong,"
      I have never found that necessary here :-)

      "nor to stop asserting such errors in later conversations."
      Again just not a problem for me here!

      "He also doesn't have any commitments to shut up when he has nothing to say."
      You keep coming up with these non-issues for me!!!

      "And people respond to this guy, why?"
      Good question, why did you?

      Delete
    11. @Stardusty:

      And about individuation, anything to add?

      Are 'particles' really individuated or we do project 'individuality' upon them?

      If it's an 'open question', then scientific findings are on the line, because science doesn't seem capable of painting an accurate picture of the world.

      Delete
    12. " ... And people respond to this guy, why?"

      Different reasons, including the fact that for some, he directly addresses them.

      Others respond because they become annoyed at his dishabile use of philosophically freighted terminology, his unargued and sloppy presentation of contestable material as settled fact, his self-issuance of unacknowledged epistemological dispensations in order to assert an inescapable universal subjectivity while declaring as if objectively, and his blasé and his ridiculous metaphysical pronunciamentoes.

      They will in response experience a natural urge to quash the weaseling, and if not set the record completely straight, to clear the fog of his bluster away

      Add to that his trollish snippet behavior with its tiresome deflections, and men will naturally become exasperated and try talking to him instead of about him.

      The important thing to bear always in mind is that in him, you are dealing with the shell of a personality, one whose purpose is to coyly needle his political adversaries on their home ground and to score what he delusionally imagines to be rhetorical points - in a dispute that extends beyond the boundaries of Ed Feser"s blog comment section.

      In the real world this is the kind of person one presumably deals with, rather than humors. In this virtual realm however, he serves well enough as a quasi academic example of a certain kind of mentality and personality; and, for the Christians among you, as an example of what is left when the anti-logos enters into the driver's seat.

      Delete
    13. DNW 6.43AM

      Having pronounced in general why you think that some people respond to StarDusty , please enlighten us as to why you repeatedly expend acres of text doing so, while condemning him -falsely - as a worthless troll.

      Delete
    14. while condemning him -falsely - as a worthless troll.

      Prove it.

      Delete
    15. OK guys, enough with the "Who's a troll, who's not" stuff. Get back to substantial comments, please.

      Delete
    16. From Anonymous,
      September 13, 2023 at 10:05 AM
      DNW 6.43AM

      Having pronounced in general why you think that some people respond to StarDusty , please enlighten us as to why you repeatedly expend acres of text doing so, while condemning him -falsely - as a worthless troll.

      Dear Anonymous,

      You can find my motivations there in the general list.

      I'll repeat a shorter version again so you can check the context of my comments in particular against the activities and comments of Stardusty and others.

      1. " ... he directly addresses them...."

      2. " ... they become annoyed at his dishabile use of philosophically freighted terminology, his unargued and sloppy presentation of contestable material as settled fact, his self-issuance of unacknowledged epistemological dispensations in order to assert an inescapable universal subjectivity while declaring as if objectively, and his blasé and his ridiculous metaphysical pronunciamentoes.

      3. " ... They ... experience a natural urge to quash the weaseling ... to clear [away] the fog of his bluster ..."

      So, Anonymous, you should now be able to employ your web browser's "find" function to sort out for yourself how many times Stardusty has addressed me directly, and how many times I have responded to his approach.

      You might even find the phrase, "asked and answered" among them.

      You might also find that others have addressed me about him, and that I have responded to those comments with characterizations of what Stardusty is up to, and his methodology.

      And you will no doubt find critical comments I have made spontaneously about his claims or presentations.

      " ... condemning him -falsely - as a worthless troll ..."

      Well now, that is a real hanging pitch, just begging to be whacked. And if I were your little buddy, I might try to come up with some smart assed retort.

      But instead I will just observe that you have probably let your emotions and indignation cloud your vision.

      I have certainly labeled him a troll. But I have also repeatedly congratulated Ed Feser on what is I assume, his calculated tolerance of Stardusty. And in doing so, I explicitly acknowledged that Stardusty had some utility, some "worth" as you might even say; though probably not the value or use which he imagined himself as having.

      Thus,
      " ... he serves well enough as a quasi academic example of a certain kind of mentality and personality;

      and, for the Christians among you, as an example of what is left when the anti-logos enters into the driver's seat."

      Does this help to put your mind at ease?

      Delete
    17. Edward FeserSeptember 13, 2023 at 7:04 PM
      OK guys, enough with the "Who's a troll, who's not" stuff. Get back to substantial comments, please.


      Sure. Good idea. Glad you intervened.

      Delete
    18. Richard,
      "Connection and separation imply individuation, such that you can tell two things are connected or separate."
      Separate in what sense? Connected in what sense?

      I have a feeling you are going someplace with this idea of "one", but I really do not know where!

      Suppose there could be a continuous homogeneous substance, sort of like the Aristotelian anti-atomism view of the elements, or the old idea of the aether, or a classically (19th century) formulation of a field.

      Now, in that case, various regions of the substance are separated from each other spatially, that is, they have spatial extent. There is this part over here and that part over there.

      Yet, in the case of such a fluid-like substance, there is only one thing, in some sense, the whole thing, the entire extent of the air, earth, water, aether, field, or whatever one wishes to call it.

      "So you seem to be pre-supposing individuation."
      There is, at least, apparent individuation that is observed. The greater question is whether such individuation is ontologically real, or whether seemingly individual things are actually spatially separated concentrations of the same underlying substance.

      Just to make things even more questionable several researchers were recently awarded the Nobel for experimentally confirming entanglement using the theoretical work of John Bell.

      These confirmations are only statistical at this time. John Bell was able to predict a statistical difference that one would expect in the case of either the reality or non-reality of entanglement if certain sorts of experiments were performed. The experimental evidence indicates that entanglement is the case under those circumstances.

      So, perhaps certain particles can seem to be separate yet actually be somehow connected, or "entangled".

      Delete
    19. @Stardusty:

      So, perhaps certain particles can seem to be separate yet actually be somehow connected, or "entangled".

      Which would prove again that Darwin was wrong. Our senses don't give us accurate information about extra-mental reality, so NS is a superfluous 'force'.

      Your goddess can't even do her supposed job properly. She can't give us senses that work with a minimum of accuracy!

      We see 'separations' that aren't there. We perceive 'colors' that aren't there. We smell smells that don't exist. We taste tastes that don't are real. We "hallucinate" all the time. Lol.

      Materialism is so pathetic. We exist in a world in which we never get anything right.

      Billions of years of evolution that mean nothing after all and that might as well not have happened.

      Truly laughable non-sense.

      Delete
  5. WCB

    Process Theology was a his theologal creation of Alfred North Whitehead. Who wanted to believe in God but could not accept the typical arguments made for God that soon became obvious. Omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and moral evil. Omniscience and free will. So Whitehead set out to create a theology to avoid these issues by jettisoning the problematic claims of the omni everything God of Christianity. He wrote a number of books on the subject, most of which at least a decade ago, were free for downloading for anybody interested.

    He created a whole new metaphysics for his new theological system that he admitted "was highly speculative". I will admit he was imaginative, if not convincing. Later Process Theologians like Charles Hartshone, David Ray Griffith and other continued on developing Process Theology after Whitehead's death.

    WCB

    ReplyDelete
  6. Funny, I just read a very interesting article about how Whitehead misunderstood Aristotle’s substance, and it mentions Hartshorne: https://www.religion-online.org/article/whiteheads-misconception-of-substance-in-aristotle/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. WCB

      Whitehead also dabbled in physics. He developed his own take on relativity and debated Einstein on the subject. Einstein had the better understanding of relativity, while Whitehead's ideas failed to stand scrutiny and have been forgotten except as a historical curiosity. Meanwhile, his former partner, Bertrand Russell went on to become one of the founders of analytical philosophy.

      WCB

      Delete
    2. WCB,

      This is entirely unfair to Whitehead; Whitehead is also one of the founders of analytic philosophy. This was explicitly recognized at the time (and why, for instance, Quine took classes with him despite hating his lecturing style), and as more work has been done in the history of analytic philosophy in the past decade or so, it has only become more obvious how much analytic philosophy owes to Whitehead in his early and middle periods (including some things that later came to be attributed to Russell, but which Russell clearly got from Whitehead). He is also (with Grace de Laguna) founder of modern mereotopology, which is still a major research topic in analytic philosophy today.

      On the physics side, he didn't merely 'dabble'; Whitehead's theory of relativity was one of the primary possible alternatives to Einstein's for most of the twentieth century. For nearly half a century, they both seemed to cover the evidence equally well (the primary reason why physicists massively preferred Einstein's is that it was simpler in structure and easier to use in calculations), and it wasn't until the 1980s that anyone identified a phenomenon that Einstein's theory definitely described better than Whitehead's, namely, tidal behavior. Far from being a mere forgotten historical curiosity, I myself have met physicists who, as one of their projects, are looking into the question of whether Whitehead's theory can be modified so as to handle the tidal problem (although in at least one case it was with a "just to check that we haven't overlooked something" attitude). So there are people in physics still working on it, despite its now being a very niche topic with only some scattered researchers. Yes, there were always structural reasons to prefer Einstein's theory and, yes, evidence now seems clearly to favor Einstein, but developing a theory that could keep up for nearly fifty years with one of the most brilliant physical theories in history is not 'dabbling', but a major accomplishment.

      Delete
  7. And he co-wrote" Principia Mathematica" with Bertrand Russell. Lord Russell was quite a celebrity in his time. I always liked his the prologue to his autobiography.

    "Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. These passions, like great winds, have blown me hither and thither, in a wayward course, over a great ocean of anguish, reaching to the very verge of despair.
    I have sought love, first, because it brings ecstasy - ecstasy so great that I would often have sacrificed all the rest of life for a few hours of this joy. I have sought it, next, because it relieves loneliness--that terrible loneliness in which one shivering consciousness looks over the rim of the world into the cold unfathomable lifeless abyss. I have sought it finally, because in the union of love I have seen, in a mystic miniature, the prefiguring vision of the heaven that saints and poets have imagined. This is what I sought, and though it might seem too good for human life, this is what--at last--I have found.

    With equal passion I have sought knowledge. I have wished to understand the hearts of men. I have wished to know why the stars shine. And I have tried to apprehend the Pythagorean power by which number holds sway above the flux. A little of this, but not much, I have achieved.

    Love and knowledge, so far as they were possible, led upward toward the heavens. But always pity brought me back to earth. Echoes of cries of pain reverberate in my heart. Children in famine, victims tortured by oppressors, helpless old people a burden to their sons, and the whole world of loneliness, poverty, and pain make a mockery of what human life should be. I long to alleviate this evil, but I cannot, and I too suffer.

    This has been my life. I have found it worth living, and would gladly live it again if the chance were offered me."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When I was a youth, I too encountered the vast array of suffering of men. My response was the cusp of a choice: either there is a God who transcends the evil and suffering and (somehow) makes the universe something worth existing, or there is no God and it is fundamentally impossible that life or any other good in life can make all that "worth it". Although it was (in my early philosophical journey) an extremely simplistic observation, my nigh on 50 years of study and living have not convinced me that my early observation was flawed. I have, rather, found many reasons to confirm it.

      I suspect that in a consciousness permanently without God, if Russell were (somehow) given the opportunity to live one life after another after another in this world with all its suffering, he would eventually become disgusted with the suffering and pine for no longer coming back at all. After one life? Apparently not. After 100 such lives, or a 1,000? Almost certainly.

      I suspect also that he is intimating something of this in saying "I have sought it finally, because in the union of love I have seen, in a mystic miniature, the prefiguring vision of the heaven that saints and poets have imagined. This is what I sought, and though it might seem too good for human life, this is what--at last--I have found.". That is, he thinks, and perceives, that there is indeed a something else that is more than what is here. The brief touches and glimpses that we get of it, during this life, in our best moments, would eventually pall if we forever only got those brief touches and glimpses: if there is no real otherness OF WHICH we are getting such glimpses, then these moments are nothing more than drug-induced illusions, having no more moment than any other experience, and such cannot possibly make up for the immensity of suffering. The recognition that life is good in spite of the suffering is, itself, a bulwark of the transcendental.

      Delete
  8. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @HK:

      Russell's argument is very weak. He chose a man-made artifact for his 'experiment', which makes things look specially bizarre, since most humans know that teapots don't occur naturally and that no human was ever sent to the space between Mars and Earth. He rigged the game. Which is what atheists always do. They put forward arguments that sound convincing, but which fail upon close inspection.

      "Now we can see why Russell's teapot argument fails to disprove anything. The argument is circular. Its conclusion is built into its premises. It begins with an object whose existence in outer space is intrinsically unbelievable – and it ends in the conclusion that belief in the object's probable existence is irrational. Belief in the teapot seems silly only because the teapot is an object that is unlikely to exist in outer space. We already know that the teapot is unlikely even before we read the argument. We might not have direct sensory evidence against Russell’s teapot, but we have indirect evidence against it. Russell’s teapot example does not succeed in showing that unproven objects are unbelievable. At most, it succeeds in showing that objects known to be improbable are unbelievable".

      Russell could have chosen to use a plain old space rock in his argument. But of course he knew that that would have destroyed it. He chose instead the 'clever' trick of the teapot to make it more impactful. Which constitutes cheating.

      - Mark F. Sharlow The End of the Teapot Argument for Atheism (and All Its Tawdry Imitators)

      Delete
    2. WCB

      The reason fideism, belief without reason and evidence is not accetable is that fudeism can be used by any religion, heresy, or even lack of belief.
      It puts any and all belief systems on an equal basis, Chrisianity, Islam, Shinto, or Scientology. Or even atheism.


      Fudeism is a slippery slope.

      WCB

      Delete
    3. @WCB:

      And what 'evidence' can be gathered by a system (materialism) that questions the validity of human rational capabilities?

      If I can't trust my senses and my mind, I can't obviously trust any conclusions about the world that I reach by using said senses and said mind.

      And that includes the supposed 'truth' of materialism, which can't be assessed.

      It has to be accepted on faith, which you say is dangerous. And I agree.

      Delete
    4. WCB

      The human eye can see at best 6,000 stars. But there are more than that. But you need a good telescope to see more than 6,000. Can you trust your senses. Not without proper tools.

      And if you don't have a powerful telescope, you have to rely on reports from experts who do have access to them.

      I should have to explain this to you.

      WCB

      Delete
    5. @WCB:

      The silliness you wrote does nothing to solve the problem of skepticism/PEW (Problem of External World) that materialism suffers.

      Do you even understand what I am talking about?

      If materialism is true, we can only have access to the images of our brain, and we can't prove that those images correspond to an external world.

      We can't even know that there are galaxies. No matter how many telescopes we use.

      That's the curse of representationalism.

      Delete
    6. @WCB:

      Even the scientific instruments that broaden the scope of our sensory perception — like microscopes that allow us to see beyond the smallest features our eyes can discern, or infrared and ultraviolet light sensors that can detect frequency ranges beyond the colors we can see — are fundamentally limited to our narrow and distorted window into reality: they are constructed with materials and methods that are themselves constrained to the edited `copy' of the world in our brains. As such, all Western science and philosophy, ancient and modern, from Greek atomism to quantum mechanics, from Democritus and Aristotle to Bohr and Popper, must have been and still be fundamentally limited to the partial and distorted 'copy' of the world in our brains that materialism implies.

      - Bernardo Kastrup Why Materialism is Baloney

      Materialism is a waste of time and of intellectual power.

      Delete
  9. "From the Thomistic point of view, Hartshorne’s remarks about specific arguments for God’s existence are a mixed bag."

    Strange ... it was pure accident that I decided to look up an old essay I had stumbled up against in the stacks, but here is an interesting aside delivered by Collingwood back in '38.

    " ... in that case God alone would possess that compulsive force which is expressed by the word cause; that word would not be given as a name to x, and God would be the “sole cause”. Actually, God is for mediæval thinkers not the “sole cause” but the “first cause”. This does not mean the first term in a series of efficient causes (a barbarous misinterpretation of the phrase), but a cause of a peculiar kind, as distinct from “secondary causes”.

    "

    ReplyDelete
  10. Yes, scepticism is one of the plagues of the "anti-rationalist" version of the Enlightenment. Under this heading one can group the romanticists, but more to the point, Conservatives of all kinds. All of them, starting with Burke and de Maistre, passing by Kirk and his "intuitive" "reason", and Scruton and his scepticism about the very existence of "self", metaphysical cause etc, more or less deny a rationally certain connection between man and God, as well as metaphysical certitude of pretty well any kind. Their only "certitude" is civil society; their only law is its survival and all that assists this (hence, in their opinion, religion of all kinds is absolutely useful and, by definition, uncertain, utterly). These people are the end of religion because they subsist on religious people and their "folk beliefs".

    All reason is like water off a duck's back to the conservative ideologues. They will take up every term denoting truth or faith, reinvent it and empty it of meaning. They have no issue with adopting Saint Thomas as one of their own. But how can believing Christians continue to play with such ideologies? How can they pay tribute to Roger Scruton, who taught that the human person is a social creation (approaching very closely the strangest woke contorsions), to point of declaring that the child is an animal until it has attained the "reason" induced by social interraction.

    There is hope. What is the substance that banishes Conservatism for ever, leaving faith to grow? It is that intervention in the workings of the world represented by God talking, and his actions that produce that "gap" in the ordinary processes of causes in the world that Scruton declared could not be found. Dogmas are testimony to these "gaps". The Church itself is a huge "gap" in the natural workings of the universe, that men witnessed and are called to witness.

    ReplyDelete
  11. OP,
    "we ascribe various attributes to him (omnipotence, omniscience, perfect goodness, and all the rest)."
    Omnipotence is intrinsically incoherent, because it leads to self contradictions such as the classic question as to whether god can make a rock too heavy for him to lift.

    Objectively perfect goodness from any being is logically impossible. Plato demonstrated that in his dialog between Socrates and Euthyphro.

    Omniscience asserted together with free will make an incoherent property set.

    "We can demonstrate his existence in a manner consistent with canons of logical inference."
    No, you cannot.

    All arguments for the existence of god on offer are unsound.

    "For the Thomist, the key to understanding how it is possible to speak of God in these ways despite his being so radically unlike the things of our experience is in the analogical use of language,"
    Here you contradict your own previous claim, made just a few sentences prior.

    If you could logically demonstrate the existence of god you would not need to speak of god analogically, rather, you could, in the logical case, speak of god directly.

    "He presents an argument from practical reason"
    Reason...therefore god.
    The argument from reason is a particularly poor one, as I have demonstrated to Victor Reppert repeatedly.

    "argument from desire"
    Desire...therefore god.
    Another specious argument. Desires are just brain processes, evolved biological mechanisms.

    "version of Anselm’s ontological proof"
    Yet another specious argument. God does not exist as a thought in the brain. Brain matter exists in the brain. Brain processes are real changes in the material structure of brain matter. There is no god existing when one imagines a rock, god, or anything else.

    "Plantinga"
    Plantinga is well known for various preposterous attempts to argue for the existence of god. Not mentioned in the OP, but EAAN is another one of his inane attempts.

    "design argument"
    A watch in the sand is recognized as designed not by complexity, not by its material, but by the facts that we observe watches being designed, and we cannot find any means absent a designer that such a physical arrangement could arise, even in principle.

    The evolution of life is observable and there are principles that have been identified that would allow for life to arise absent a designer.

    "the starting points for sound theistic proofs must lie in truths that go deeper than any that might in principle be falsified by observation or experiment."
    So, to make a "sound" argument one must begin by assuring that it is non-falsifiable? Whaaaa???

    That is not a recipe for a sound argument, that is simply idle speculation intentionally formulated to be humanly impossible to investigate.

    One can speculate that god lives on a planet in a galaxy 5 billion light years distant from us. Sure, we cannot disprove that, but then, there are almost limitless such speculations one can make. Pretty worthless.

    "Consider, for example, the proposition that change occurs, which is the starting point for the Aristotelian proof from motion for the existence of a divine unmoved mover."
    The First Way suffers from false dichotomy as well as various false premises.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Stardusty:

      it Omnipotence is intrinsically incoherent, because it leads to self contradictions such as the classic question as to whether god can make a rock too heavy for him to lift.

      There's no incoherence. For St. Thomas, God can do anything that doesn't contradict His Nature (because by the doctrine of transcendentals, He is Truth). And Truth doesn't admit contradictions.

      And since when do you care about contradictions so much? Your materialism is plagued by them, and you cling to it like a leech.

      Omniscience asserted together with free will make an incoherent property set.

      No. God is Truth and He can't will to be Falsity. Truth only desires truth.

      All arguments for the existence of god on offer are unsound.

      Arguments by assertion are unsound.

      If you could logically demonstrate the existence of god you would not need to speak of god analogically, rather, you could, in the logical case, speak of god directly.

      Non-sequitur.

      The argument from reason is a particularly poor one, as I have demonstrated to Victor Reppert repeatedly.

      And the demonstration is?

      Desires are just brain processes, evolved biological mechanisms.

      Assertion/ begging the question against the hylemorphist.

      Brain matter exists in the brain.

      The image of brain "matter" exists. But due to the PEW, you can't prove that it corresponds to anything real. And even if you could, changes in the brain are necessary, not sufficient conditions for knowledge.

      Plantinga is well known for various preposterous attempts to argue for the existence of god. Not mentioned in the OP, but EAAN is another one of his inane attempts.

      You are well known for being an imbecile who can't put forward any valid argument. The EAAN is sound and adds to the problem of skepticism that materialism/ naturalism can't and won't solve.

      The First Way suffers from false dichotomy as well as various false premises.

      If it suffers from them, you have done nothing to prove it. Your usual stupidity about mutual causation and your Russell's paper have been debunked thousands of times.

      The First Way remains untouched. At least by you and your useless inanities.

      Delete
    2. @Stardusty:

      You have not provided a single valid objection against the First Way, the doctrine of Divine Simplicity, the Argument from Reason or Plantinga's EAAN.

      None, not any, whatsoever.

      Delete
    3. @Stardusty:

      "Argument from desire". Desire...therefore god.

      But that's exactly what materialism is, an "argument from desire". Desire... therefore matter.

      Like the rest of us, metaphysical materialists start from the contents of their own consciousness, such as perceptual experiences. All they are ever directly acquainted with are the colours, flavours and tones they perceive. But in order to explain why the external world we inhabit doesn’t comply with our inner wishes and fantasies, materialists consciously postulate that the world is constituted by a medium outside and independent of consciousness—namely, matter. As such, matter is a tentative explanatory abstraction, a conceptual creation of reasoning consciousness. We can never become directly acquainted with matter, for all we ever know about the world are our conscious perceptions.

      - Bernardo Kastrup Why Materialism Is Absurd

      No silly attempt at proving the existence of matter can succeed, so the materialist is forced to believe in "matter", but never to offer solid, irrefutable proof. Materialism is an absolute metaphysical presupposition that cannot be proven.

      And a clarification regarding the EAAN: it's not an argument for God, but an argument that shows that the conjunction of materialism/ naturalism + evolution is irrational.

      So calm down, take a deep breath and learn the basics of philosophy, so you won't look like a total tool.

      Delete
    4. The First Way suffers from false dichotomy as well as various false premises.

      "If it suffers from them, you have done nothing to prove it."
      The First Way fails to account for circular causation, and thus suffers from an obvious false dichotomy.

      That invalid logic of the First Way was so obvious that within a few decades Scotus attempted to repair that error of Aquinas by making the assertion that a circle of causes is impossible.

      Unfortunately, Scotus used a posterior/anterior analysis based on an erroneous one-way circular causal model or topography, so Scotus was also incomplete in his analysis.

      In truth all causation is mutual at base, not one-way, and not linear, rather, in a broad sense, mutually circular.

      Causation proceeds from the 4 forces of nature, all of which are mutual in their actions, with the distinction between mover and moved, or self moving or moved by another, arbitrary and thus meaningless.

      Russell famously stated, and Dr. Feser has published on this quote specifically:
      "In the motions of mutually gravitating bodies, there is nothing that can be called a cause,
      and nothing that can be called an effect; there is merely a formula"

      This has often been misinterpreted as a reification of a description. Actually it was a listing of descriptions:
      cause
      effect
      formula

      Of those descriptions only "formula" is apt.

      In all real causation, at base, that is at the terminus of our regression analysis, the distinction between mover and moved is arbitrary and thus meaningless, there is only the mutually concurrent interaction.

      Aquinas completely failed to account for these facts of causation in the First Way, and thus the First Way is logically invalid, suffering from false dichotomy in its regression analysis of change.

      Further, the First Way suffers from the false premise that motion is change. Motion is not change. Motion is a state.

      Acceleration is change. Acceleration is the change of motion. Absent acceleration there is no change in motion, and thus no call for a changer.

      Inertial motion makes the First Way unsound.

      Yes, I realize Dr. Feser has written about this extensively. Dr. Feser is wrong in his writings on this subject.

      It is true that inertial motion is compatible with all manner of speculations. But the First Way is not an argument for compatibility. That is the core error of Dr. Feser.

      The First Way is an argument for necessity, not mere compatibility.

      It is true that one can speculate a single first mover, or one can speculate an google little angels nudging every particle along, or one can make any number of such idle speculations and the observation of inertial motion does not disprove any of those speculations.

      The observation of inertial motion makes the First Way unsound because the First Way is an argument for necessity, and inertial motion makes the First Mover unnecessary.

      Delete
    5. @Stardust_Psyche, you have no idea what's going on in the Euthyphro, do you? Tell me, have you ever noticed how strange the dialog is, given that it's the only work in Plato where there are two people? And have you ever wondered why Euthyphro mentions his "father" but never names him, and also never names the servants discussed in the dialogue? Socrates, and likely even Plato, would know who these individuals are or were, and the names could easily have been used. After all, the person whose name is used for the dialogue means "Right Thought", so surely these other names could be supplied to highlight given meanings in the text.

      Delete
    6. Richard,
      " you have no idea what's going on in the Euthyphro, do you?"
      I have read and studied it multiple times, and I am familiar with how to rephrase that structure of argument in application to monotheism and assertions of naturalistic objective morality.

      I am also aware that it presents a true dilemma and that the attempts of religious philosophers to convert it into a trilemma fail because such attempts are simply rewordings of one of the horns of the dilemma.

      "Tell me, have you ever noticed how strange the dialog is, "
      Indeed, it seems highly contrived.

      I am not so concerned about the naming issues you raised, but for me there is the issue of how Plato knows of the details of this dialog to which there were no witnesses. Further, it seems rather contrived that both men should just so happen to meet each other near the entrance of a place where both are about to proceed on matters of life and death justice, yet they decided to stop and engage each other in a long philosophical dialog.

      There are those, of course, who suggest Socrates did not exist as a real living man, and that he was just a plot device for Plato. Perhaps. I don't know and I don't much care.

      It is the arguments I am interested in, irrespective of whether those in the dialog were real or fictional.

      Contrived or not, employing fictional characters or not, Plato makes the points clear.

      On the one hand if the pious is loved by the gods because it is pious then the gods are not the source of the pious and we are bound to repeat the question again and again without end. Thus, in this horn of the dilemma there can be no objective morality because to assert it leads to a non-converging infinite regress of gods.

      Or, alternatively, is the pious pious because it is loved by the gods? In that case the pious is arbitrary, and therefore not objective.

      Now, WLC will say that the gods simply are the pious, but that is incoherent. The pious, or as we would say, the good, is not an existential being, rather, it is a judgement of a being, an action of a being. The action of a being does not exist, rather, the action of a being is a real process of that existent being.

      Or, one might say it is simply god's nature to be good, but that is just a rewording of the arbitrary case, the because I said so case.

      I say chocolate is best. Clearly that is arbitrary. It does no good to say chocolate is objectively best because it is my nature to prefer chocolate. That is what all arbitrary preferences are, simply an expression of one's nature. The nature of a being to prefer one aesthetic over another is itself arbitrary, and therefore not objective.

      So, yes Richard, I have noticed quite a significant number of things about that dialog.

      Delete
    7. The dialogue occurs where it does because the King Archon is associated with Dionysus, due to certain religious issues present to Athenian culture at that time. Dionysus in myth was torn apart, of course, but also put back together and restored and for anyone paying attention to these nuances it's possible to grasp the answer to the dilemma in the very place setting given in the work. The Good just is unity, the wholeness of each thing. For Plato, the wholeness of a God isn't a thing They randomly decide upon or have forced upon Them, but instead is just the result of Them existing simply as Themselves as unique Individuals. What They "want" is what proceeds from Their own individual uniqueness, and not due to any arbitrary choice or external factor. This would maybe be an easier answer to grasp if you had read the Parmenides, where the One, or the issue of unity itself is raised. In short, if you treated the work of Plato as a unity rather than something to rip apart as you cobble a terrible defense against God, you would actually better understand the context of the argument here and it's answer.

      So far as it goes for the nameless father of Euthyphro, there is another nameless "father figure" in another dialogue, and that would be the Demiurge of the Timaeus. The Demiurge is the figure that, upon witnessing another God, goes on to create according to a paradigm witnessed in that God,. The demiurge is never given a name in the Timaeus, however, and it seems to be suggested by this that the Demiurge can be any God who so witnesses another. Now this may not seem germane, but in the Euthyphro the nameless father punishes a servant who "murders" another, and the punishment is more than it seems. The murderous servant is "chained to a low place" and "exposed to the elements", that is, the murderous servant is put in the Cave and forced into embodiment. The two servants are nameless in the dialogue because they are interchangeable, that is, they are really the same man. In ancient Greek society, to be born is to inevitably die, and so the second servant "murders" the first by simply being an angry quarrelling man instead of being the sort of man who seeks unity, setting the stage for coming back into mortal birth.

      But what does it mean in the dialogue that Euthyphro can call the Demiurge "father" while Socrates does not or cannot? It would seem that Euthyphro himself is closer to this father than Socrates, that he has a more intimate relationship to the Demiurge than any man he would speak to, and that's a very curious condition for a man compared to other men. But then, it would seem that because of this Euthyphro isn't a man at all, and is instead likely a spirit. Specifically, Euthyphro is that class of spirit that Socrates himself in the Apology declared that he had a particularly felicitous relationship with, the personal daimones. This is why there are only two people in the dialogue, as no one else could participate in the conversation due to the nature of the relationship of the individuals involved. This is also why it happens where it does, because as Dionysus was understood as being involved with matter, we can see that this is occurring at the very edge of materiality itself and it is likely the conversation is actually occurring during prayer. So instead of being an indictment of Deity, the entire argument hinges on the existence of it.

      So the next time you want to deploy an argument from Plato, make sure you understand the WHOLE thing.

      Delete
    8. @Stardusty:

      The First Way fails to account for circular causation.

      There's no 'circular causation' regarding existence. Only Pure Actuality, Being Itself, can cause other beings to have existence. Nothing that doesn't exist can cause anything at all.

      Existence precedes causation, and no contingent being can be the cause of its own existence.

      The Universe could not have caused itself, because it would have needed to precede itself, which is absurd.
      It means that he would have needed to exist before causing its own existence. And that's logically impossible.

      Russell famously stated, and Dr. Feser has published on this quote specifically:
      "In the motions of mutually gravitating bodies, there is nothing that can be called a cause,
      and nothing that can be called an effect; there is merely a formula


      But a mathematical formula doesn't imply it's a verbatim copy of reality. It's a formula, and formulas can have limitations in their scope. Even if causation appears mutual in the formula, it doesn't mean that the world at large is a group of 'undistinguishable, uncaused events'.

      In the motions of mutually gravitating bodies, there is nothing that can be called a cause,
      and nothing that can be called an effect; there is merely a formula.


      But there's more to reality that 'gravitating bodies'. Your post is causing a visual perception on me and, even if I have a physical body that is affected by gravitational forces, gravitation alone can't explain the whole process.

      Physics is not the arbiter of causation.

      Further, the First Way suffers from the false premise that motion is change. Motion is not change. Motion is a state.

      No. For Aquinas motion IS change and change is the actualization of a potential. They are two concepts that reflect the same reality. A state is the opposite of change. A change implies a beginning and a term. A state doesn't. States can't even be intelligible if they are not contrasted to motion/ change.

      Inertial motion makes the First Way unsound.

      A motion can't be 'inert', because it would be a motion/ change that isn't a motion/ change after all. 'Inertial motion' is an incoherent concept.

      Dr. Feser is wrong in his writings on this subject.

      No, he isn't. He is perfectly aware of what Aquinas and the medievals meant by 'motion', which is not what the moderns refer to as 'motion'. Moderns (like you) confuse motion/ change (actualization of a potential) with 'local' motion.

      and inertial motion makes the First Mover unnecessary.

      Feser prefers 'First Actualizer', because it avoids the confusion with the term 'motion' (again, moderns confuse 'motion' with 'local' motion).

      A First Actualizer that makes matter (and by extension the Universe) actual is needed.

      Delete
    9. Richard,
      "So the next time you want to deploy an argument from Plato, make sure you understand the WHOLE thing."
      Why?

      Nearly all of your commentary on Greek mythology and the literary analysis of the characters is irrelevant to the form of argument that rules out objective morality.

      There are thousands of legends with all manner of stories and symbolisms. If you are interested in mythology, fine, I find it generally boring.

      The legends and back story and suppositions about the characters are irrelevant to the issue of objective morality.

      I could not care less about Socrates, the Demiurge of the Timaeus, Dionysus, the father, a prayer or any of that. Those figures are irrelevant to the structure of the argument.

      The structure of the argument is to create a description of a dichotomy, a choice between 2 options, both of which entail a lack of objectivity.
      1.An infinite non-converging regress of sources, that is, a regress of sources that can never terminate in an objective source, therefor ruling out a source for objective morality in this case.
      2.An arbitrary source which rules out objective morality in this case.

      All the color commentary about what various mythical figures are said to have done is irrelevant to that structure of argument.

      1.Does god say P is good because it is good? If so then god is not the source of the good, so we are logically bound to ask the question again with respect to god's god, and again for god's god's god, and so forth, ad infinitum, without ever converging on a source for P as good, therefore ruling out objective morality in this case.
      2.Is P good because god says P is good? Then P as good is arbitrary, therefore ruling out objective morality in this case.

      Thus, objective morality is logically impossible.

      That seems to bother a lot of people, I guess it makes folks feel somehow adrift in the cosmos or something, perhaps uneasy with the uncertainty of no objective moral propositions to refer to.

      It bothers otherwise rational atheists so much that some will occasionally say things like "P is objectively wrong because it is detrimental to human flourishing". I cringe when I hear that sort of thing because, very obviously, who is to say human flourishing is objectively good?

      I mean, most of us probably agree with that broadly, but there is a great deal of disagreement as to what "flourishing" means exactly, and how the good and the bad should be balanced out, or if they even should be balanced out, or whatever your views on redistribution of "flourishing" might be.

      Clearly, "human flourishing" is subjective, and therefore basing P on a subjective principle makes P, ultimately, subjective, not objective.

      So, Richard, no, I don't need to learn all the silly details of the mythology to employ the core argument structure.

      That core argument structure rules out objective morality from god, the one, nature, universal human opinion, or any other asserted source.

      All morality is necessarily subjective at base, not objective.

      Delete
    10. The First Way fails to account for circular causation.

      "There's no 'circular causation' regarding existence."

      From the OP:
      " Consider, for example, the proposition that change occurs, which is the starting point for the Aristotelian proof from motion for the existence of a divine unmoved mover."
      That is, of course, a reference to the First Way.

      The basis for the First Way is motion and change, not existence.

      The First Way is not an existential argument, it is an argument from motion and change.

      Have you read the First Way? It seems not. You keep asserting it is an existential argument, but it isn't.
      Here is my favorite source, perhaps you have a better one?
      https://iteadthomam.blogspot.com/2011/01/first-way-in-syllogistic-form.html

      Delete
    11. @StardustyPsyche

      In the anthropology of polytheistic cultures, demiurge : god :: archangel : angel. The Nenets believe in many gods, but two demiurges that created the world. And despite the popular notion in medieval times that the Ancient Greeks really venerated angels, the truth is, we know that they were truly polytheists because Ancient Greece had a parallel tradition of angels to the Hebrews, and they distinguished their gods from their angels.

      Delete
    12. HK,
      Well, ok, the Greeks were polytheists. I suppose you could imagine some fine distinction between a pantheon of angels, saints, demons, souls, spirits, and even a son of god, along with the triune big guy himself, yet somehow talk yourself into considering that monotheism.

      As for objective morality, specifically the lack thereof, it doesn't much matter, except it helps make the arbitrariness of the one horn of the dilemma more obvious for some folks.

      If P is good because a god says P is good, then on the supposition of a pantheon of gods, what if a different god says P is bad? In that case the choice becomes arbitrary.

      If we say that both gods have a nature that is intrinsically good, yet they disagree, then we again see that a supposedly intrinsically good nature is itself arbitrary.

      It turns out that monotheism suffers from the same problem of the arbitrary nature of god.

      Even if I were the only human being on Earth and I declared that chocolate is best, it would still be an arbitrary declaration, even though it is my nature to prefer chocolate, my nature is itself arbitrary.

      Another way to see this with a monotheistic god is to realize god did not create his own nature, and god cannot change his own nature. Therefore god's nature is arbitrary, having been instilled in god by whatever necessity of the cosmos there is that necessitated his existence.

      So, no matter how you slice it, objective morality is logically impossible.

      Delete
    13. Stardusky: "Consider, for example, the proposition that change occurs, which is the starting point for the Aristotelian proof from motion for the existence of a divine unmoved mover."
      That is, of course, a reference to the First Way.

      The basis for the First Way is motion and change, not existence.

      The First Way is not an existential argument, it is an argument from motion and change.


      Hooooeeeey! Egad! Give me a moment while I retch quietly in the bushes....

      The "first way" - you know, the "first way of proving God's existence"?

      Below: As soon as one states certain things god cannot do then god is no longer omnipotent. If god can lift every rock he can make then he is limited in how heavy a rock he can make. If he can make a rock too heavy for him to lift then he is limited in his ability to lift.

      Thus, the claim of an omnipotent god is shown to be intrinsically incoherent.


      Wow, just wow. Before I read this, I gave it at least a 30% chance that Stardusty's notion of omnipotence would allow for the sense of it that respects what is logically possible, i.e. not oxymoronic senses of omnipotence. I guessed wrong, his idea of what "omnipotence" means is that it includes doing the logically impossible. I hereby admit that I way overestimated his reasonableness, and I apologize to anyone here who was adversely affected by that assumption.

      Hey, Stardusty, you might at some point (soon, please) reflect on how useless it is to continue to converse with people SO STUPID that they don't accept your definition of omnipotence, and absolutely refuse
      to change their minds on that score to accept your definition. (And many other definitions). It's useless. Leave us in your dust, spend your time more fruitfully in conversing with people who have a shred of sense - elsewhere, of course. Not here. The combox here is full of people simply and utterly unable to rise to the level where they could remotely benefit from your comments. They need help you cannot give them, so you are better off helping people who can be helped. The world itself will be a better place if you instead spend your time helping others who can be helped. Triage, you know: you can't fix everything.

      Delete
    14. Anon,
      "not oxymoronic senses of omnipotence."
      A limited unlimited being is oxymoronic.

      "respects what is logically possible,"
      That is a limit.

      Is this logically possible?
      0=1
      That's what god did, right? Create a universe from nothing. Where is the logic in that?

      If god is so omnipotent that he can create a universe from nothing, surely he can make a rock too heavy for him to lift.

      "how useless it is to continue to converse with people SO STUPID"
      If I loved only those who love me I would be deserving of no reward, even the tax collectors do that.

      "The combox here is full of people simply and utterly unable to rise to the level where they could remotely benefit from your comments."
      There is a glimmer of hope and goodness even in the most wretched soul (or in your case, retched).

      But, that is just my subjective opinion, objective morality being logically impossible, as is an omnipotent being.

      OBTW, the First Way of Aquinas is an argument from motion and change, not an existential argument. Maybe when you are feeling better you can provide evidence and related sound argument to the contrary.

      Delete
    15. @SD:

      OBTW, the First Way of Aquinas is an argument from motion and change

      There's no motion and change. Motion IS change. You could learn the basics.

      not an existential argument.

      We are discussing Prof. Feser's viewpoint/ defense of the FW. Which is that change requires Divine concurrence. Change leads to Pure Actuality.

      Things that don't exist can't exercise no causal powers. Two sides of the same coin.

      Delete
    16. There is a glimmer of hope and goodness even in the most wretched soul (or in your case, retched).

      The point was not whether "there is a glimmer of hope" in every wretched soul, the point was whether is any hope that their rescue would come from your comments here. I can attest that there is sufficient evidence that there is no rational human hope of the correction of certain (effectively) incorrigible commenters here. The only reasonable hope would rest in some higher power.

      "how useless it is to continue to converse with people SO STUPID"
      If I loved only those who love me I would be deserving of no reward, even the tax collectors do that.


      So, you subjectively wish to believe that constantly hammering your "obvious" on the thick skulls of those who find that hammering to represent torture is "loving"? Your view doesn't take their point of view of the torture into account? Good to know. The torture shall continue until until morale improves, and you SHALL like it, because I said so!

      Delete
  12. Omnipotence is intrinsically incoherent, because it leads to self contradictions such as the classic question as to whether god can make a rock too heavy for him to lift.

    Is that the depth of your understanding of omnipotence?

    Objectively perfect goodness from any being is logically impossible.

    Depends on what you mean by "objectively perfect goodness", of course. I suspect what you are thinking of has nothing to do with God. Maybe your notion of "god", whatever that is, but not God.

    Omniscience asserted together with free will make an incoherent property set.

    It sounds like you don't understand omniscience any more than you understand omnipotence.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kevin,
      "Is that the depth of your understanding of omnipotence?"
      Yes.

      Omnipotence is all powerful, processing the power to do all things, unlimited power.

      Placing any limiting qualifiers on omnipotence is to state "limited and unlimited power", which is intrinsically incoherent.

      As soon as one states certain things god cannot do then god is no longer omnipotent. If god can lift every rock he can make then he is limited in how heavy a rock he can make. If he can make a rock too heavy for him to lift then he is limited in his ability to lift.

      Thus, the claim of an omnipotent god is shown to be intrinsically incoherent.

      So, yes, I have that depth of understanding.

      "objectively"
      ob·jec·tive
      /əbˈjektiv/
      adjective
      1.
      (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

      By that definition god cannot be the source of an objective good. Plato demonstrated why in his dialog between Socrates and Euthyphro.

      "It sounds like you don't understand omniscience"
      Omniscience is intrinsically incompatible with free will. For there to be free will it must be possible to choose otherwise.

      If a being now perfectly knows what a person will choose later then that person cannot choose otherwise.

      Suggestions of time travel, eternal now, existing outside of time, etc. do not help the free will proponent. The future actions are known now in our time, irrespective of how they are known by others. Therefore as our time progresses the individual will not have the option to choose otherwise.

      Indeed, I understand.

      Delete
    2. Repeating the same shallow thinking doesn't make it right. Also don't know what you mean about "god" but it isn't any conversation anyone else is having.

      Delete
  13. WCB

    Probably the most famous Plantinga proposition is his Free Will Defense. Which depends totally on strawman arguments.

    There is an essay by Plantinga, "Reply To The Basingers On Divine Omnipotence" that is a must read for Plantinga skeptics. Here Plantinga admits God could create mankind that always freely chooses to do no moral evil. He furthermore declares that is necessary.

    Thus his infamous Free Will Defense fails utterly. Plantinga admits his Free Will Defense is a defense, not a theodicy.

    Bur a defense that he admits is false is no defense at all. Look this up and read it. You will laugh out loud at his brazen intellectual dishonesty. Rarely will you ever see a well respected theologian debunk himself so thoroughly. You will never think of Plantinga as a serious thinker after reading this amazing essay.

    WCB

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @WCB:

      Maybe a 'thinker' like you that doesn't understand the problem of skepticism that makes materialism untenable and a joke is not the best person to talk about 'intellectual honesty'?

      Just maybe?

      Lol, you and your pals will never touch Plantinga. Materialism is intellectual bankruptcy.

      Delete
    2. @WCB: Nah, your paraphrase of Plantinga is inaccurate. Read that passage again. He says that for EACH free creature, there is a possible world in which that creature always freely does what is right. This does not entail that the same is true of "mankind" as a whole. And in fact he says, "What I do think is this: there are many possible worlds God could not have actualized; and it is possible (I know of no reason to think it is true) that among these worlds [i.e. the ones God could NOT have actualized] are all the worlds in which there are free creatures who always do only what is right. There are plenty of possible worlds where free creatures do no wrong, but it could be that God might not have actualized any of those possible worlds (NN 168-84)." And if Plantinga is right about this being possible, then the Free Will Defense still goes through.

      Now, one might not find this convincing (and I don't, since I don't find it particularly plausible that God could not have actualized those worlds), but nevertheless, your "gotcha" of Plantinga is based on a misreading, and this weakens your case that Plantinga is dishonest or not serious. IMO his intuitions about possibility are seriously biased/motivated reasoning, so we probably do agree there.

      Delete
    3. UC, what you don't get is that materialistic thinkers are disingenous. I was like you about ten years ago, trying to see what I had wrong in my reasonning for being a silly nonmaterialist.

      Turns out the truth is more simple (and way sadder) : materialists are either believing in confusing ideas (like Rosenberg, for example, who thinks he doesn't think), or they're having a different set of beliefs than the ones they claim to have.

      What is the good reply to this? Well, the same as Aristotle has when he says "debating a potted plant" : water them gently, pat them on the back, nod your head, and send them their merry way.

      Delete
    4. @Anonymous at 5:42 PM:

      Yes, there are lots of disingenuous materialists, since materialism is nothing but the religion of the Academia and of the so called 'intelligentsia', and they are psychologically addicted to it. It's a fanaticism like any other.

      But there are also lots of them that aren't capable of understanding the challenge. You tell them that representationalism leads invariably to skepticism about the external world, and their reply is: 'but the external world is real! (WCB being an example). And they think that that solves the issue, even if it can't be solved by any means (except by renouncing to materialism itself).

      You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

      Materialism is patently false. It will be forced to keep adding epicycles to its nonsense until the moment it will be finally replaced.

      Delete
  14. WCB

    Over the centuries, mankind has invented thousands of silly religions, most now dead and gone. Egypt, Aztecs, Norse, Shinto et al. Apparently mankind often does have a problem distinguishing between truth and nonsense. If God only can give mankind ability to think about true things, God seems, by Plantinga's own criteria to not be very capale of understanding truth.

    WCB

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @WCB

      Shintou is most certainly not dead and gone. Japanese--even the grown adults--still take folklore very seriously and treat it as something sacred and holy.

      Delete
  15. WCB

    "The silliness you wrote does nothing to solve the problem of skepticism/PEW (Problem of External World) that materialism suffers."
    - UncommonDescent

    Yes, the external world and its very real objects exist. Apparently you hold to some Berkeleyan idealist theory. All exists only in minds. Including God's which accounts for persistence of objects when humans are not there to observe them. Your coat will be in your closet where you left it weeks ago. That Indian arrowhead exists even though the Indian who made it died centuries ago and it has just become visible after the last big rainstorm exposed it to view.

    The problem with Berkeleyan style idealism is that if God is good, why are there guinea worms, river blindness worms, malaria parasites and other horrors? How did they come to exist in the anti-materalist's world? The supernatural world where God creates all, and sustains all imminently?

    WCB

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @WCB:

      Yes, the external world and its very real objects exist.

      But if materialist premises are true, proving said external world becomes impossible. And I don't mean 'difficult'. I mean impossible. It has to be accepted on faith.

      Apparently you hold to some Berkeleyan idealist theory. All exists only in minds

      See, WCB? You're proving me right. You don't understand the most basic things that are thrown at you. I am NOT an idealist. I am an hylemorphist. That I cite Kastrup doesn't mean that I agree 100% of the time with him.

      Materialism implies that everything that exists is just images in the brain. But you can't use the images in the brain to transcend the images in the brain. Materialism ends up being --> subjective idealism: we can only know our ideas, but we can not know if those ideas represent accurately (or at all) anything beyond themselves.

      The problem with Berkeleyan style idealism is that if God is good, why are there guinea worms, river blindness worms, malaria parasites and other horrors?

      I am not a Berkeleyian. The problem with materialism is that, if materialism is true, human life is meaningless, so malaria and guinea worms are not objective 'horrors'. Inconveniences at most. Only if life and health are objective goods, then their disruption can become an objective evil. But nothing is objective for materialism. 'Life' is a meaningless accident in a meaningless Universe.

      Paradoxically as it is, you need God to understand the horror of evil. You need the objectivity that materialism can't offer.

      Delete
    2. WCB

      "Materialism implies that everything that exists is just images in the brain."
      - UncommomnDescent

      We have Images in the brain" because our sensorium reflects input from very real, objects outside of the brain. The images of the brain do not cause these objects to exist. Try to make an image in your brain, say a winning powerball ticket to materialize. Good luck on that.

      Mocking Up Mass. L. Ron Hubbard thought Scientologists could creat
      Emass from thought if one becomes a mighty OTVII or OTVIII. Really! Elron actually claimed OTs added as much as 48 pounds to their weight mocking up mass.

      Material and real objects are not dependent on mind.

      WCB

      Delete
    3. @WCB:

      We have Images in the brain" because our sensorium reflects input from very real, objects outside of the brain.

      Which you can't prove, because you depend on the images in the brain for everything, even to 'know' that you have a body with 'sensorium'. But in the end, you can't transcend the images in the brain to see what is 'out there'. Your account of causation sounds very nice, but the problem is that it can't be proven. It has to be accepted on faith. Which is funny, because you say that you don't like 'fideism'.

      Material and real objects are not dependent on mind.

      But you can't transcend your perceptions/ mind. You are trapped behind your neuronal theater, so the external world is something in which you believe, but not something for which proof can be gathered.

      Be careful before mocking other people's 'religious beliefs'. Maybe your religion is the worst of them all.

      Delete
  16. WCB

    Did you bother to read Plantinga's "Reply To The Basingers On Divine Omnipotence"?

    Plantinga has been rather silly more than once. For example his claim Christianity is a properly basic belief. Not needing evidence or a good reason to accept that. Why not claim Islam is properly basic, or Linus's Great Pumpkin, or Shintoism? Plantinga cannot explain.

    His Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism has so many problems it is hard to know where to start. Many people have very poor reasoning skills and when it comes to abstract reasoning, have little understand of truth or facts. Not what we would expect if God granted us ability to reason and understand truth, that which evolution cannot give us.

    Plantinga has been thoroughly and rightfully debunked many times.

    WCB

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @WCB:

      His Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism has so many problems it is hard to know where to start.

      Well, you could give us an example. Or are you bluffing? The EAAN is a well established argument that has generated a lot of literature.

      Many people have very poor reasoning skills and when it comes to abstract reasoning, have little understand of truth or facts.

      Materialists excel at the task of being poor reasoners. They pile contradictions upon contradictions without showing any remorse. In fact, if materialism were true, abstractions would not be possible, because only concrete particles exist. You are a perfect example of contradictory, self-refuting thinking.

      Not what we would expect if God granted us ability to reason and understand truth,

      Having an ability doesn't mean that it has to be perfectly fulfilled all the time. We have the general ability to walk, but due to injuries or just because we are lazy, we don't always walk. That doesn't mean that the ability isn't there.

      Plantinga has been thoroughly and rightfully debunked many times.

      By whom? I'm especially interested in the EAAN. There are philosophers who affirm that it is in very good health. I mean, real philosophers, not atheist comboxers.

      Delete
    2. @WCB:

      Exactly what I expected.

      You have nothing against Plantinga's EAAN, just the usual materialist sophistry.

      Delete
    3. "I'm especially interested in the EAAN."
      EAAN states that evolution by natural selection is false because natural selection selects for reproduction advantage, primarily survival, not truth. If untrue beliefs are a reproductive advantage they will be selected for. If untrue beliefs are not a reproductive disadvantage they will not be selected against.

      Therefore, on EAAN, evolution by natural selection is false since, on EAAN, natural selection cannot account for human capacity to determine truth.

      I am a "dolt"
      I am a "tool"
      I am an "idiot"
      I am "stupid"
      Yet I managed to get married to a woman, have multiple children by the usual method, and raise them to adulthood.

      Therefore, I am living proof that evolution is true and EAAN is false.

      Did you ever get the feeling that the world is full of idiots who know jack diddly squat about truth? Yours truly as a prime example? Therefore evolution is true and EAAN is false.

      Did you ever consider that it seems like the stupidest people reproduce the most? Therefore evolution is true and EAAN is false.

      I mean, just look around you, people generally believe all sorts of nonsense, yet they manage to reproduce. Therefore evolution is true and EAAN is false.

      Yet, all these idiots in the world know that sand, dirt, rocks, and poison berries are not good food, and it is true that eating them will not help you survive.

      So, on matters that help you to survive at least long enough to reproduce people generally seem to be able to determine truth sufficiently well to survive and reproduce. Therefore evolution is true and EAAN is false.

      If you think anything about this post is untrue just remember, I have reproduced, therefore evolution is true and EAAN is false.

      Delete
    4. @SD:

      EAAN states that evolution by natural selection is false

      No. Plantinga doesn't say that evolution by 'NS' is false. He says that the conjunction of naturalism (understood as the lack of any foresight in Nature) + 'NS' is enough to make us doubt the reliability of our cognitive faculties. A blind person is someone who can't discern among any type of visual information. A blind 'selective' process (regarding thoughts) is one that can't discern among any information supposedly contained in those thoughts.

      'NS' can't 'read' thoughts. I may see a tiger and think: 'UD, you'd better escape it or your daughter will become a demon if you don't' and for NS that behavior would constitute an instance of 'success'.

      As long as my body goes in the opposite direction to that of the tiger, I would become evolutionarily successful. But it's not important to escape tigers because (supposedly) daughters will become demons if their parents don't escape them. It's important to escape tigers because they have claws and fangs powerful enough to make people dead. Knowing that tigers are exactly what they are and that humans (without tools) are in disadvantage is the important part. Knowing said reality would be to apprehend truth. Only by successfully apprehending the tiger's nature and my own nature and by acknowledging that the tiger is more powerful than me, can I be in possession of truth. All other combinations would be false.

      Therefore, on EAAN, evolution by natural selection is false since, on EAAN, natural selection cannot account for human capacity to determine truth.

      'Truth' means the equation of thought to reality. If the conjunction: Naturalism + NS is what created our cognitive capabilities, then we end up having no good reasons to believe that our cognitive capabilities are capable of getting to know truth.

      'NS' can't read THE CONTENT of our thoughts. As long as I escape the tiger, 'NS' couldn't care less about WHY I escaped it. Our thoughts are a black box to 'NS'.

      That's the gist of Plantinga's EAAN.

      Only minds can read thoughts. 'NS' is mindless. Therefore 'NS' is not apt to guarantee the reliability of our mental processes.

      And you naturalists can't change the fact.

      Delete
    5. "Therefore 'NS' is not apt to guarantee the reliability of our mental processes."
      Right, and by your lights my mental processes are highly unreliable.

      If (unreliable mental processes) then NS
      (unreliable mental processes)
      Therefore NS

      Plantinga says that if NS is the case we would observe unreliable mental processes.

      You continually observe unreliable mental processes.

      Therefore, your observations provide evidence for NS.

      Delete
    6. @SD:

      If unreliable mental processes --> then materialism and naturalism can't be rationally believed as true. Said beliefs come from an unreliable brain and should then be discarded.

      Thanks for proving Plantinga right.

      Delete
  17. I think I overheard someone saying this this the other day. Not sure where it was ...

    "If God can't do glabbacgook and do it inside out and outside in at the same time in forward and reverse, and do it even before it is done, and do it in time and in this frame of reference, whatever that is, and so I can see it, then he is obviously not all powerful.

    You need not ask me what this all means. If God is God then He would take what I say, nonsense or not, and make it happen in a way which I would be able to grasp and approve. Otherwise, He is not an all powerful God.
    Logic proves it."


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. WCB

      Is this supposed to be meaningful somehow? As per Plantinga, God could create mankind who has free will and yet freely chooses to never do moral evil. Plantinga asserts this is true, and further more is necessarily true? And if God has free will and is omnipotent, Plantiga is correct. Plantinga admits there is no reason to think God creates all with transworld depravity.

      Yet he concludes, maybe there is a reason God does not do this. In the end, it is a big fat, impossible maybe, theology of the gaps.

      Now, how would Aquinas deal with Plantinga's admissions??

      WCB

      Delete
  18. Speaking of E.O. Wilson,

    Termites presumably have evolutionarily programmed within them, certain ritualistic patterns of social behavior; patterns which they follow with regard to their social roles and natures and their interactions with other termites.

    Is any part of the realization of these behaviors reinforced through some manner of communication among them?

    Are termites conscious of or self-aware regarding the fact that they are carrying out and obeying these - obviously - objectively observable patterns of behavior? Does it matter with regard to these patterns whether we might call these termite morals, or termite customs, or the laws of termite social survival?

    If these behaviors are purely instinctual and never deviated from, do they qualify as "mores"? If not, why not.

    If we can rightly call these "mores" and they are universal and empirically verified, does that make them "objective? Or is there some other criterion which must be added?

    By the way, do termites have any "free will"? Can they make even rudimentary choices to do or not do certain things based upon their own homeo --- or rather termiteo-static biological needs?

    Would termites even need to have free will in order to be said to have, or to obey the social interaction patterns presumably grown out of termite teleonomy?

    Whether or not termites have free will, are we justified in referring to these prescriptive or biologically induced patterns of normative termite interaction, as termite "mores"? If not, why not?

    Conscious or unconscious, self-aware or not, free-will or not. If only termites could talk ...

    ReplyDelete
  19. WCB

    "I have a feeling you are going someplace with this idea of "one", but I really do not know where!"
    - Stardust Psyche

    One wonders Sounds like Parmenides. Nothing comes from nothing, so there was always something. Is that something one thing or many? Parmenides. One thing. And change is impossible. The bizarre metaphysics of Parmenides gave birth to "The One", later identified with God. Neo-Platonism, simplicity of God and much bad metaphysics. Zeno's paradoxes, created to prove change is indeed impossible.

    WCB

    ReplyDelete
  20. At this point I genuinely believe StardustPsyche is mentally ill. I'm not even saying that as an insult, but the way he practically stalks this blog and has had the same argument several billion times over the last...5 years? Is honestly deranged IMO.

    It'd be one thing if he was genuinely curious in opposing points of view and looking to expand his philosophical horizons, but he begins and ends literally every post he makes with a declaration that he is unassailably and totally and obviously correct with none of his opponents having anything to offer him. I have never seen him in any discussion give so much as an inch or admit to not having the answer on any particular topic.

    These are not the words or attitude of of someone who is genuinely curious or has some doubts about their position which they seek to probe via philosophical discussion or debate. So what he is still doing here after all these years is a total mystery.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anon,
      "StardustPsyche is mentally ill."
      Thank you ever so much for your diagnoses.

      "I have never seen him in any discussion give so much as an inch"
      Is there any particular inch, in your view, I should have given?

      "none of his opponents having anything to offer him"
      Do you have anything to offer, I mean, I suppose that is a rather selfish request in the light of your already generous expenditure of diagnostic skills, much to my benefit, but still, anything?

      For example, the subject of the OP is one particular author, but more generally, various assertions regarding arguments for the existence of god, and factors required to, on the assertion of Dr. Feser, make a sound argument for the existence of god.

      I assert that all arguments, on offer, that is, in general circulation, are unsound. That is an inductive argument on my part, based on my personal experience that I can quickly identify invalid logic and/or false premises used in every argument for the existence of god I have ever read or listened to, which is a lot, so many, that they have become very repetitive, and I cannot recall the last time I heard or read a new one.

      Of course, being an inductive argument regarding human expressions, there must be some non-zero possibility that perhaps one day I will hear such an argument for the existence of god, one I have not heard before.

      Got one?

      Delete
    2. @SD:

      Is there any particular inch, in your view, I should have given?

      Yes. Your lame 'circular causation' which you say is proven by 'equations' while at the same time you assert that equations are not 'all the story'. Which means that even if equations don't show 'circular causation', it doesn't mean causation is not a real feature of the world. (Maps usually don't show people in them, but that doesn't mean that people aren't real and that countries are empty). Only very silly people assert what you assert.

      I assert that all arguments, on offer, that is, in general circulation, are unsound.

      Exactly. You assert, but you don't offer any valid proof, which makes you look like an obsessive crank. No more, no less.

      I've seen how you 'debunked' the EAAN at Reppert's blog. It's a truly sorry spectacle. You don't even understand the argument.

      That is an inductive argument on my part.

      Which amounts to nothing of value.

      Delete
    3. @SD

      Original anon here who offered the "diagnosis":

      "Do you have anything to offer [?]"

      Yes, I have some advice: leave.

      You have been stalking this blog for nearly 5 years if my loose memory estimation is correct, and in those times you have declared yourself the victory of every single exchange.

      If you truly believe that, it seems there is no longer any reason to be here. Therefore, a normal and logical person would have concluded that they heard all arguments that have been put forth here, found them unconvincing, and it is time to depart and seek some other greener pastures.

      Personally, if I was Feser's moderator, I would advocate for banning you on account of your incredibly rude, arrogant, and dismissive posting style combined with your almost stalkerish obsession with this blog.

      That, and user username is extremely Reddit.

      Delete
    4. Anon,
      "I have some advice: leave."
      Your advise is appreciated as your diagnosis was.

      "user username"
      Is that a Jar Jar Binks joke? Kind of humorous, actually.

      "depart and seek some other greener pastures"
      Any particular recommendations or links?

      Still, the OP makes reference to other subjects, such as an asserted sound basis for theistic arguments for the existence of god.

      Do you have any, sound arguments for the existence of god, that is?

      "arrogant"
      I refer you to a fine piece of performance art, from Lorenzo's Oil.
      www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDcPjTXOz3U

      Indeed, I claim for myself that there are no sound arguments on offer for the existence of god, contrary to the assertion of the OP.

      Do you have counterexample to offer? I mean, specifically, can you write, here, a sound argument for the existence of god?

      I assert arrogantly, that is, I claim for myself that you cannot, but, the proof of my error would be simple, only one counterexample would suffice. Got one?

      Delete
    5. >Still, the OP makes reference to other subjects,such as an asserted sound basis for theistic arguments for the existence of god.

      If you're referring to my post, I did not. I am not nor have not in this particular thread made any argument for God's existence, nor do I intend to. It is irrelevant to the current subject, which is that you have heard every single thomistic argument multiple times, and you should have no reason to expect to hear a new one (IE a non thomistic one) from a blog dedicated to thomistic philosophies.

      If you so genuinely want to hear a "new" argument, I therefore suggest it would be most logical to spend your time looking for one elsewhere. Your continued insistence on pestering the same exact people and having the same exact arguments in circles for months comes off as bizarre and obsessive. If you are as rational and logical as you claim to be, you should recognize this. Otherwise I will have to conclude that my diagnosis is sound.

      Allow me to pre-emptively comment: do not respond to this post requesting an argument for God's existence. I will not engage on this topic. Nor will I respond to anything you say or ask on the subject or any subject related to it. If you wish to discredit my diagnosis, I strongly suggest you do not make another futile attempt to goad me into engaging you on this subject, rather than the one at hand (IE your bizarre and stalkerish obsession with this blog)

      Delete
  21. Feser

    Do you have no basic standards in this, your combox? You allow Uncommon and DNW to spew their vile insults at StarDusty unhindered, but now you allow Anonymous at 5.38am to promote the idea that he is mentally ill - the sole purpous of the post. Talk about being off topic . Get a grip man.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Free Thinker,

      You very, very badly need to get a life. All you ever seem to post (usually anonymously or under other names) is comment after comment about which comments I approve, which other commenters you think are rude, whether I apply comment moderation criteria consistently, etc. You seem utterly obsessed with how I run the combox.

      Usually I don’t let these comments of yours through, just as I don’t let through most comments of the kind you complain about. You don’t see what I don’t let through. Occasionally something does get through that I either didn’t read carefully, or which contains silly insults but is mixed with more substantive points, or what have you. Unlike you, I don’t go through these things with a fine tooth comb and analyze them in obsessive detail, but simply spend a few moments moderating, make a quick judgment call, and move on to other things.

      Most readers (including the ones you’re defending) seem fine with that – they are, after all, normal adults. But you have an unhealthy fixation and need to get another hobby. If you don’t like how I run the combox, don’t read through it. There are other blogs and websites that I am sure are more to your liking. I suggest you spend more time with them and less time here.

      Delete
    2. I have a very full, active and productive life as it happens Feser. As to not reading through your combox, I might just take up.your advice as it is a joke - a veritable 'Wild West', and quite without parallel among forums run by supposedly.professionsl philosophers.

      Delete
    3. your combox... [is] a veritable 'Wild West'

      Hmm, one would have thought that a self-described "free thinker" would approve!

      Delete
    4. You allow Uncommon and DNW to spew their vile insults at StarDusty unhindered

      Stardusty intentionally presents his posts in ways intended to insult the reasoning capacity and positions of others. He presents his posts in ways intended to convey that he's the smartest guy in the room.

      He changes the meaning of words to make his position correct, violates basic grammar to disrespect God, tells people their beliefs cloud their ability to think, and lets everyone know that his own beliefs are without question or error and if you think you've found a mistake in his position, that's your first clue you're wrong.

      And he does it over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and...

      And you wonder why no one takes him seriously? That's simply not normal behavior, and offers nothing worthy of respect. He could argue the exact same points, and if he didn't constantly insult others and proclaim how highly he regards his own reasoning capacity, then no one would care. They might raise an eyebrow at how often he declares the First Way to be unsound on a Thomistic blog, but otherwise he wouldn't attract the negative attention he does and could have actual conversations with people.

      Delete
    5. Where has Papalinton.gone? We sorely need him to return - his sociopolitical commentary would compliment StarDusty's philosophical analysis perfectly.

      Delete

    6. Well, Kevin, just ignore SD. He would probably go away if you did. And Free Thinker, you do need to lighten up. This is cyberspace, not an Oxford Union debate. And as a matter of respect, address the owner of this blog as Ed, Dr. Feser or Prof. Feser.

      Delete
    7. @Anonymous:

      And as a matter of respect, address the owner of this blog as Ed, Dr. Feser or Prof. Feser.

      FT gives lessons of 'civility' while addressing Prof. Feser in a very uneducated manner.

      The typical hypocrisy of the 'liberals'.

      Delete
    8. Alright, guys, let's warp up this particular sub-thread and get back to substantive comments, please.

      Delete
  22. WCB

    Some of us do take SP's post pretty seriously. Just saying.

    WCB

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @WCB:

      Well, that only shows that poor thinkers tend to gather together.

      Delete
    2. Hi Ed,

      Your article, "Between Aristotle and William Paley: Aquinas’s Fifth Way," appears to contain several bait-and-switches.

      "For Scholastic realism about universals, the universal essence acorn exists in the particular acorns themselves and in the finite minds that abstract it, but it also pre-exists in the divine intellect as the archetype according to which God creates acorns." (p. 725)

      "A builder builds a house, and he is able to do so because the effect, the house, 'exists' as an idea in his intellect before it exists in reality. Or rather, the form of the house exists in the builder's intellect, and that very same form comes to exist in the matter that makes up the house." (p. 743)

      These explanations which you offer are central to your argument for a Divine Intellect as the ultimate ground of finality in creatures. But at the same time, you scoff at Paley for modeling his designer on human designers: "he works out design problems, performs calculations, and so forth — but does so with massively greater facility." (p. 742) If, as Thomists maintain, God's Mind is radically unlike ours, in that He doesn't "plan ahead" or have multiple ideas of the things He creates in His Mind, then why are you unable to make a case for a Divine Intellect without appealing to examples which explicitly invoke a human designer - the very thing you say God is not? You cannot have it both ways. If you think Paley's God is anthropomorphic, then you shouldn't appeal to human designers in your case for God. This is bait-and-switch number 1.

      "... [S]ince an effect B doesn't even exist until generated by its efficient cause A, the necessitation will have to be grounded in something intrinsic to A. But what can this intrinsic feature be if it is not the very inclination to an end that Aquinas affirms...?" (p. 728)

      This argument is unobjectionable if it merely aims to show that things have an intrinsic tendency to produce their effects, in the right circumstances. But then you add:

      "First, the end toward which a thing naturally points can be efficacious only if it exists beforehand in an intellect, as the plan for a house exists in the mind of a builder before it is realized in the actual house." (p. 733)

      This is bait-and-switch number 2. This conclusion only follows if things not only have an inbuilt tendency to produce their effects, but also an inbuilt tendency to produce FUTURE effects.

      "A common objection to the very idea of final causality is that it seems to entail that a thing can produce an effect even before that thing exists." (p. 733)

      No such paradox arises if things only have present-directed tendencies. At the physicochemical level, there is no need to postulate future-directed tendencies, and if biological tendencies can be explained in terms of these, then there is no need to invoke an intelligence to explain their future-directedness.

      "Supposing the intelligence which orders natural things to their ends is other than divine thus merely opens the way to a vicious explanatory regress, a regress that can in principle be terminated only by a purely actual, and thus divine, intelligence." (p. 737)

      This is bait-and-switch number 3. Having argued for an intellect that directs natural things towards their ends, you then argue that if it were NOT divine, it would still ultimately depend on an Intelligence which is Pure Act. First, the argument is a non sequitur. If a non-divine intellect depends on something which is Pure Act, we still need to show that Pure Act is intelligent. Second, since you deny that Pure Act needs to have archetypes in its Mind, or make plans, or engage in reasoning, in order to create, then I ask: what remains of the notion of "intelligence," when ascribed to such a Being? Hasn't the term "died the death of a thousand qualifications," as Flew would put it? Cheers.

      Delete
    3. EF-
      "Or rather, the form of the house exists in the builder's intellect, and that very same form comes to exist in the matter that makes up the house." (p. 743)"
      The very same? This is demonstrably false.

      The imagined form of a house is a very simplified abstraction of the actual form of the house once it is built.

      "But what can this intrinsic feature be if it is not the very inclination to an end that Aquinas affirms...?" (p. 728)"
      Teleonomy, not teleology.

      The sort of attributions to spirits to account for perceived directedness of natural processes has for many thousands of years led humans to attribute the wind to the wind god, the sun to the sun god, sickness to demons, and all the rest.

      Material simply has properties by necessity. Humans attribute apparent directedness to a top down intelligent power. To answer the question, "what can this be" we simply recognize the bottom up causal progressions of material.

      "First, the end toward which a thing naturally points can be efficacious only if it exists beforehand in an intellect"
      We see a lizard warming itself in the sun, so clearly the purpose of warming the lizard is realized through the efforts of the sun god who directs the sun toward the end of warming the lizard. That is the level of thinking you are engaging in, Dr. Feser.

      I have a very different answer, one supported by a very great deal of scientific evidence, and not requiring intelligent directedness at all.

      Nuclear reactions in the sun cause electromagnetic radiation to be emitted in all directions and a tiny amount of that energy reaches the lizard and warms the lizard.

      There is no intelligence behind the process, no top down directedness, no teleology. Only teleonomy.

      VT-
      "No such paradox arises if things only have present-directed tendencies"

      What sense does "present-directed" make?

      The present is, well, right now, not the past, and not the future. So, your statement means that P is directed to a future P' right now in the present. That is incoherent.

      If P is directed to P' in any sense then it must be that P' is in the future with respect to P.

      It could be that P is directed to P', yet in the present P is still P until time passes such that P' can be realized in the future. P' cannot be realized from P if P is still in the present.

      On materialist determinism P is directed to a future P' by taking P as a set of initial conditions upon which material progresses deterministically according to the physical properties of material. This is how teleonomy works.

      Human beings have an evolved propensity to attribute observed natural progressions to intelligent agents.

      Human beings have invented teleology as an imagined explanation for teleonomy.


      Delete
    4. Hi StardustyPsyche,

      You write:

      "What sense does "present-directed" make?

      "The present is, well, right now, not the past, and not the future. So, your statement means that P is directed to a future P' right now in the present. That is incoherent."

      Not so.

      First, at least some natural objects have present-oriented dispositions: they interact instantaneously with the objects they are in immediate contact with. For instance, a sodium ion on the outer edge of a salt crystal will immediately break away from the crystal, when it encounters some water. It breaks away because it has a disposition (or tendency) to do so: the positively charged sodium ions in the salt crystal lattice are more powerfully attracted to the negatively-charged sides of the water molecules than they are the neighboring chloride ions in the salt crystal lattice are. This is a present-oriented disposition, relating to how the molecules and ions are disposed to act right now, because they are in contact with one another. Not all dispositions, then, are future-oriented.

      Second, it is quite possible that all of the future-oriented dispositions we find in Nature (and especially in living things) supervene upon lower-level, present-oriented dispositions, which would not seem to require any guiding Intelligence.

      Third, the neo-Darwinist objection that the apparently future-directed teleology we find in living things is really nothing more than a gradual accumulation of multiple (present-oriented) patterns of efficient causality, each of which evolved in organisms' ancestors and each of which happened to help those ancestors to replicate - in other words, teleonomy rather than teleology - needs to be addressed.

      I conclude that the Thomist argument for a guiding Intelligence underlying the finality we see in nature fails to prove what it sets out to prove.

      (I also discuss other alleged instances of future-directedness in an article I wrote many years ago. See here:

      https://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/feser6.html#three )

      Delete
    5. Vincent,
      Allow me to follow up here to my previous comment below (physically out of order, I realize).

      "Not so.

      First, at least some natural objects have present-oriented dispositions: they interact instantaneously with the objects they are in immediate contact with. For instance, a sodium ion on the outer edge of a salt crystal will immediately break away from the crystal, when it encounters some water."

      Suppose at present time t0 our sodium atom is at present location l0, and then our sodium atom "breaks away" and is therefore in solution in water.

      Thus after the "break away" our sodium atom is at l1 and t1.

      Surely, to have "broken away" the atom must have moved some finite distance, which necessarily requires some finite time.

      Therefore, t1 is in the future with respect to t0, making the electrostatic breakaway an instance of future oriented causality.

      Zero change occurs in zero time.

      It is coherent to assert that there could be a force in zero time, thus, there could be a mutual attraction between the water molecule and the sodium atom in zero time, thus, a static force where no work is done.

      But that force cannot be oriented toward a change in zero time, because zero change can occur in zero time. It is incoherent to assert that a static force is oriented toward change in zero time.

      Causality is a notion of change. If causality is to have a temporal orientation then that must mean that causality is oriented toward a change, and a change cannot occur in zero time, therefore causality cannot be oriented toward the present.

      One can abstractly consider l.5 and t.5, and then l.25 and t.25, and so forth, dividing the distance and time again an again an arbitrarily large number of times. Clearly, no matter how many times one performs such divisions one is still considering a finite change in distance over a finite time period, which is then necessarily in the future with respect to t0.

      The philosophy of divisions is, of course, an ancient one, going back at least to Zeno.

      A philosophically rigorous analysis of your sodium-water example shows that you have employed terms such a "immediate", "instantaneous", "present", and "future" only in a daily language manner that breaks down upon careful examination.

      Static forces can be coherently asserted to be the case in the present.

      Change cannot be coherently asserted to occur in the present, only over time. The changed state is always in the future with respect to the initial state.

      Causality is a notion of transition from initial state to changed state, therefore causality must necessarily be future oriented, never present oriented.

      Delete
  23. Vincent,
    Thank you indeed for the link. It is long with a great many arguments on various subjects, a few of which are directly related to the assertion of present directedness.

    You use a number of terms I think warrant clarification:
    Future
    Present
    Now
    Immediate
    Instantaneous

    Russell famously addressed these issues in some detail in "On the Notion of Cause, with Applications
    to the Free-Will Problem"
    Russellcause.pdf (a searchable file name)

    At that time Russell correctly identified a great many misconceptions about causation. His proposed remedy was to get rid of the notion of cause and effect altogether, since the words are so embedded with misunderstanding generally that they have been polluted to the point of being worse than useless.

    I prefer a perhaps less extreme approach, which is to replace "cause and effect" with "causation" or "causal process".

    Russell also made references to differential equations, which gets to the heart of the difficulties with your assertion of present directedness.

    To express the meaning of present we can ask how long of a time period does a differential expression act over? This is a classic philosophy of math problem, going back at least to the philosophical objections to Newton and Leibniz, and further to Zeno.

    That notion of the present is sometimes called the infinitesimal, the infinitely small yet non-zero amount of time, which was the basis for integral calculus of Newton and Leibniz, much to the chagrin of philosophers of mathematics.

    Later Karl Weierstrass formalized the use of the limit to express the differential, in the case of integrating with respect to time, modern mathematicians commonly use this term, which is defined incorporating the limit as t approaches 0:

    dt

    Various analogies can be made, none of them entirely satisfactory. Consider two ideal cubes touching face to face. Where does one end and the other begin? Well, ideally, at the same location, yet one is, in some sense, on one side of the line, and the other is on the other side of the line, except an ideal line does not have sides, having no width, yet we conceive of it as a line.

    Clearly, your example of the crystal does not even come close to the concepts of the infinitesimal or the limit of t as t approaches zero. There is nothing one could consider "instantaneous" or "immediate" about the process of a salt crystal dissolving in water.

    In your language you do what we all do in our ordinary lives. The brain is a sort of FIFO buffer that stores representations of recent streams of sense data, and also stores representations of predicted future sense data streams, and stiches them all together abstractly into an internal sense of the "present".

    The present is 0 time, a sort of freeze frame. Real, just like a still picture is a real image of an ongoing change process.

    Change occurs with dt, sometimes rather problematically called the infinitesimal, presently defined mathematically using the limit as t approaches 0.

    What humans call the present is actually a period of time including the past, present, and future all internally represented abstractly as a set.

    For a human being, what is commonly called instantaneous or immediate is a period of time below our sensory temporal resolution limit, say a microsecond certainly or as much as 10 milliseconds (a very long time in modern electronics and physics).

    So, I return my assertion that causal directedness cannot be toward the present, only toward the future as formulated in a differential expression.

    The past does not exist.
    The future does not exist.
    Directedness is a non-intelligent property of material that is always future pointing.
    Change occurs with dt.

    ReplyDelete
  24. @SD:

    I prefer a perhaps less extreme approach, which is to replace "cause and effect" with "causation" or "causal process".

    "Causation" of WHAT?

    "Causal process" pointing towards WHAT, exactly?

    Could you clarify?

    A 'cause' without an 'effect' becomes un -intelligible.

    Like an "oppressor" without no one being "oppressed".

    Like a 'predicate' without a 'subject'.

    Please SD, no more materialistic"Woo-Woo". We've had enough.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Speaking of Natural Theology...Aquinas made a case for the existence of God, and Richard Dawkins claimed in The God Delusion that this case was easily shown to be vacuous. You have probably responded to Dawkins' critique of Aquinas long ago, but I, as an atheist, believe that Dawkins completely FAILED to refute Aquinas, because of various STRAW MAN fallacies: https://secularfrontier.infidels.org/2023/10/dawkins-failure-to-refute-aquinas/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bradley,
      In your link you complain that Dawkins did not read the many hundreds of pages of nonsense you thought he should have.

      You also complain that Dawkins did not lay out the arguments sufficiently prior to dismissing them.

      Well, Bradley, The Five Ways are the core of the arguments, and Dawkins summarized them. You wanted a longer and more detailed examination, well, fine, write your own book then.

      The First Way uses invalid logic as well as unsound premises. One glaring defect is false dichotomy, between an linear finite regress and a linear infinite regress, clearly neglecting the circular (mutuality) case.

      BTW, Scotus soon after recognized that defect and attempted to fix it by explicitly denying the circular case. Scotus failed because he employed a unidirectional analysis, whereas real causality is mutual, that is, multidirectional.

      Aquinas used a glaring false premise, that whatever is in motion is moved by another. Inertial motion makes the First Way unsound.

      Yes, I realize Dr. Feser has published on the compatibility of of inertia with a first mover, but compatibility just won't do. The first way is an argument for necessity, and inertial motion makes the claim of necessity unsound.

      Dawkins was correct that even if you argue for some sort of first mover there is no reason to attribute all the rest of the supposed properties of god to that supposed first mover.

      The First Way is also logically invalid in the last phrase, suffering from non-sequitur, what Koons calls "the gap problem". The last phrase, besides being factually incorrect with respect to atheists, is also just a tack on with no logical connection to the rest of the argument.

      The last phrase is such an obviously logically invalid assertion that Francisco J. Romero Carrasquillo did not even attempt to include it in his syllogistic analysis.
      iteadthomam.blogspot.com/2011/01/first-way-in-syllogistic-form.html

      Dawkins is correct, the First Way is very easy to disprove. The argument is worthless and probably was just not worth spending much time or effort on in the totality of what Dawkins wanted to write about.

      Delete
    2. "In your link you complain that Dawkins did not read the many hundreds of pages of nonsense you thought he should have."

      NOPE. My complaint is that Dawkins did not read THE CASE FOR GOD by Aquinas, namely the first section of Summa Theologica (i.e. Treatise on God). That section is NOT "hundreds of pages". It is about 150 pages (in the two-volume translation found in the Great Books of the Western World).

      Delete
    3. "Well, Bradley, The Five Ways are the core of the arguments, and Dawkins summarized them. You wanted a longer and more detailed examination..."

      NOPE. I expected a FAIR and ACCURATE presentation of the Five Ways arguments, as opposed to the UNFAIR and INACCURATE butchering of those arguments presented by Dawkins.

      Delete
    4. "The First Way uses invalid logic as well as unsound premises. One glaring defect is false dichotomy, between an linear finite regress and a linear infinite regress, clearly neglecting the circular (mutuality) case."

      Whether YOU can refute Aquinas' Five Ways is IRRELEVANT. My criticism is about what Richard Dawkins wrote in The God Delusion, NOT about what you have written here and now in the comments section of this blog.

      Delete
    5. "Aquinas used a glaring false premise, that whatever is in motion is moved by another. Inertial motion makes the First Way unsound."

      AGAIN. Whether YOU can refute the Five Ways is IRRELEVANT. My criticism was about what Richard Dawkins wrote in Chapter 3 of The God Delusion.

      Delete
    6. "Dawkins was correct that even if you argue for some sort of first mover there is no reason to attribute all the rest of the supposed properties of god to that supposed first mover."

      But Aquinas specifically ARGUES that a first mover must be GOOD, OMNISCIENT, and OMNIPOTENT. The fact that you or Dawkins don't like those arguments is of NO SIGNIFICANCE. To refute the case for God by Aquinas you must refute his arguments, not just cast them aside with an insult or derogatory comment. Intelligent people understand that an INSULT is not a REFUTATION!

      Delete
    7. "Dawkins is correct, the First Way is very easy to disprove."

      If that is so, then Dawkins doesn't have a CLUE about the philosophy of religion, because he FAILED completely to refute Aquinas, because he has no understanding of the case for God by Aquinas, because (I'm fairly certain) he did NOT READ the case for God by Aquinas before writing The God Delusion.

      Delete
    8. "The First Way is also logically invalid in the last phrase, suffering from non-sequitur, what Koons calls "the gap problem". The last phrase, besides being factually incorrect with respect to atheists, is also just a tack on with no logical connection to the rest of the argument."

      ONCE MORE. Whether YOU can refute the Five Ways is IRRELEVANT. My criticism was about RICHARD DAWINS' pathetic FAILURE to refute Aquinas in The God Delusion, because of his repeated STRAW MAN fallacies against Aquinas.

      Delete
    9. Bradley,
      "That section is NOT "hundreds of pages". It is about 150 pages"
      Really? Oh please do accept my apology for such a grievous error of the most critical sort.

      "Whether YOU can refute the Five Ways is IRRELEVANT. My criticism was about what Richard Dawkins wrote in Chapter 3 of The God Delusion."
      There is another thread on logic, you might want to brush up on the subject.

      Dawkins said it was easy to refute, he is correct, and I just proved it. Stating it is easy to refute is true even if one does not personally refute it in all possibly ways.

      "I expected a FAIR and ACCURATE presentation of the Five Ways arguments,"
      Explanatory summaries are fair and accurate as explanatory summaries. Dawkins provided that. You wanted more detail, fine, go into as much detail as you wish, Dawkins decided to provide the executive summary version, which is a reasonable thing to do given how worthless and easy to refute the arguments are.

      "But Aquinas specifically ARGUES that a first mover must be GOOD, OMNISCIENT, and OMNIPOTENT."
      Ok, Aquinas was wrong, Dawkins was correct.

      "you must refute his arguments, not just cast them aside with an insult or derogatory comment."
      Moon landing deniers are crackpots and I have no intention of wasting a lot of time proving it.

      Dawkins did not use an insult, he stated an obvious fact, that arguing for a first mover in no way supports the assertion of all the rest of the supposed attributes of god.

      "he did NOT READ the case for God by Aquinas before writing The God Delusion."
      Why bother? There is not enough time in ones life to read the vast volumes of nonsense written by apologists. Typically I can spot false premises and invalid logic very quickly and it becomes an act of pointless self torture to slogg through volumes of insufferably tedious nonsense.

      "ONCE MORE. Whether YOU can refute the Five Ways is IRRELEVANT."
      You really may wish to consider brushing up on your logic skills. The fact that I and thousands of others can easily refute the Five Ways is what Dawkins was reporting.

      Dawkins reported factual statements, provided a couple high level explanatory summaries, and left it to the reader to dig into all the details elsewhere, moving on to other subjects.

      "RICHARD DAWINS' pathetic FAILURE to refute Aquinas in The God Delusion,"
      Really? He sold millions of copies. It has been translated into many languages.

      Dawkins has made a real difference in the lives of a great many people. He wrote in a manner that was personally impactful for such readers and in so doing accomplished a great success.

      You wanted more detailed philosophical refutations of the preposterous claims of Aquinas, well, though luck Charlie, Dawkins knew his audience better than that. People don't, in general, care about that. People care to read what Dawkins did in fact write, and thus his book was a great success, one of the most successfully influential books ever written on the subject.

      Delete