Wednesday, August 30, 2023

Fastiggi on Capital Punishment and the Change to the Catechism, Part II

In 2018, Pope Francis authorized a revision of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which now states that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person.”  This might be read as implying that capital punishment is intrinsically wrong, which would contradict scripture and two thousand years of magisterial teaching.  As a result, the change has been criticized as at least badly formulated.  In a recent four-part series at Where Peter Is, theologian Robert Fastiggi criticizes the critics of the revision.  The first part of my response to Fastiggi addressed what he has to say about the obligations of Catholics vis-à-vis the Magisterium of the Church.  In this second part, I will address what he says about the teaching of scripture, the Fathers, and previous popes on the topic of capital punishment.

In our book By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed: A Catholic Defense of Capital Punishment, Joseph Bessette and I assemble a mountain of evidence from scripture, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, two millennia of consistent papal teaching, and Catholic moral theology, in defense of the conclusion that the Church has taught irreformably that the death penalty can in principle be morally licit.  In a follow-up article at Catholic World Report, I have also explained the conditions under which the ordinary Magisterium of the Church teaches infallibly, and have shown that the teaching that capital punishment is not intrinsically immoral meets these conditions.  In our book, Bessette and I also set out at length the social scientific arguments supporting the conclusion that keeping the death penalty on the books for the most heinous crimes is necessary for public safety.

One of the frustrating things about Fastiggi’s series is that he leaves much of our argumentation unaddressed.  Furthermore, many of the objections he does raise are ones I have already rebutted elsewhere – including in my previous exchanges with him – yet he does not acknowledge, much less answer, the responses I have already given.  Yet Fastiggi’s series nevertheless gives the false appearance of comprehensiveness, in part because of its sheer length, but also because he will sometimes belabor trivial points.  For example, as we will see below, he tries vainly to read momentous significance into a passing allusion Pope Benedict XVI makes to Genesis 9:6 in an obscure speech on a topic unrelated to capital punishment.  Meanwhile, major problems for Fastiggi’s position go unaddressed.  Many readers of a site like Where Peter Is will not only not have read our book, but are highly unlikely to follow up their reading of Fastiggi’s articles with a look at our book to see if Fastiggi has represented it accurately, or if he really has answered all the difficulties facing the abolitionist case.

Yet another problem is that Fastiggi does not always carefully distinguish the issue of whether capital punishment is intrinsically wrong from the issue of whether it is merely better in practice not to inflict it.  For example, he will often cite some critical remark that a Church Father or pope makes about capital punishment, as if it were damaging to the case Bessette and I make.  But typically these are passages we have already addressed in our book.  And typically they are passages that would be damaging to our position only if they asserted that capital punishment is intrinsically wrong, and they do not in fact do that.  When the issues are disambiguated and formulated precisely, the passages in question do not have the force Fastiggi seems to think they have.  Problematic ambiguities like this crop up again and again in Fastiggi’s discussion.

All of this makes it harder for me to avoid a verbose response.  So, as I did in part I of this series, I apologize in advance for the length of what follows.

Scripture and the Church Fathers

As Fastiggi notes, the Council of Trent teaches that “no one may dare to interpret the Scripture in a way contrary to the unanimous consensus of the Fathers.”  But as Bessette and I show at pp. 111-118 of our book, the Fathers of the Church are unanimous in teaching that scripture allows for capital punishment at least in principle.  Fastiggi disputes this, writing:

This position, though, has been rejected by Pope Francis in his October 3, 2020 encyclical, Fratelli Tutti, no. 265, when he correctly notes: “From the earliest centuries of the Church, some were clearly opposed to capital punishment,” and he cites Lactantius (240–320), Pope Nicholas I (c. 820–867), and Augustine (354–430) as examples.

But the problem with Fastiggi’s argument here is that we need to distinguish (a) the claim that capital punishment is wrong intrinsically, or of its very nature, from (b) the claim that while it is not intrinsically wrong, it is still better not to use it.  As Bessette and I acknowledge, some of the Fathers, including the ones Fastiggi mentions, do endorse claim (b), though there are also many Fathers who reject it.  But what is in question is whether any of the Fathers endorse claim (a).  And in fact, as Bessette and I demonstrate in our book, none of them endorses that claim, and Pope Francis does not say that they do.  Indeed, even E. Christian Brugger, who is not only opposed to capital punishment but would like the Church to go as far as condemning it as intrinsically immoral, admits that there is what he calls a “patristic consensus” on the thesis that capital punishment is legitimate at least in principle, even among those who opposed resorting to it in practice (Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition, p. 95).

In part 2 of his series, Fastiggi tries to make a big deal of the fact that Pope Nicholas I was opposed to capital punishment – something Bessette and I explicitly acknowledge in our book.  But Nicholas does not condemn it as intrinsically evil.  Fastiggi also suggests that Tertullian, Cyprian, and Lactantius are exceptions to the patristic consensus.  But he ignores quotes Bessette and I give in our book that show otherwise.  For example, in A Treatise on the Soul, Tertullian says that “we do not account those to be violent deaths which justice awards, that avenger of violence.”  Lactantius, in The Divine Institutes, acknowledges that a man can be “justly condemned to [be] slain.”  In Ad Demetrianum, Cyprian indicates that if Christianity really were a crime, the state would justly “put the man that confesses it to death.”  These Fathers did indeed nevertheless oppose the use of the death penalty in practice, but they do not teach that it is intrinsically wrong.  Not only Brugger, but also James Megivern, another prominent Catholic opponent of capital punishment, acknowledge that the stronger thesis cannot be attributed to these three Fathers (Megivern, The Death Penalty: A Historical and Theological Survey, pp. 22-26).

It illustrates how desperate Fastiggi is to get around this difficulty that he even alludes in passing to David Bentley Hart’s criticism of By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed as evidence that Bessette and I have somehow gotten the Fathers wrong (though Fastiggi doesn’t explain how).  The first problem here is that it is not hard to show that Hart’s review was a dishonest hatchet job, as I demonstrated when responding to it here and here.  The second problem is that it is very odd for an orthodox Catholic like Fastiggi to look to Hart, of all people, for sound exegesis.  Hart is not Catholic and rejects Catholic norms for interpreting scripture and the Fathers.  Indeed, his view of scripture is so far from a Catholic one that he is given to making remarks like this:

Most of the Hebrew Bible is a polytheistic gallimaufry, and YHVH is a figure in a shifting pantheon of elohim or deities… [In] most of the Old Testament he is of course presented as quite evil: a blood-drenched, cruel, war-making, genocidal, irascible, murderous, jealous storm-god.  Neither he nor his rival or king or father or equal or alter ego… is a good god.  Each is a psychologically limited mythic figure from a rich but violent ancient Near Eastern culture…

[The heretic] Marcion of Sinope… exhibited far greater insight than modern fundamentalists… in that he recognized that the god described in the Hebrew Bible – if taken in the mythic terms provided there – is something of a monster and hence obviously not the Christian God. 

Hart is also well-known for trying to reinterpret scripture so as to make it compatible with universalism, which, from a Catholic point of view, is a heresy.  This is the exegete Fastiggi wants Catholics to trust to interpret scripture and the Fathers on capital punishment? 

A third problem is that Hart himself has conceded that “it is perhaps easier for me as an Orthodox Christian than it is for a Catholic to dismiss Feser’s arguments.”  For some reason, Catholics who cite Hart against me never quote this remark.

Genesis and the death penalty

Genesis 9:6 famously states: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.”  This passage has for millennia been understood by Catholic and Jewish commentators as sanctioning the death penalty, and as Bessette and I show at pp. 99-101 of our book, there is no plausible alternative way of reading it.  In De Laicis, Chapter 13, St. Robert Bellarmine considers and rejects the claim that Genesis 9:6 is merely a prediction about what will happen to murderers, rather than a decree about what should happen to them.  Among the points he makes is that such a reinterpretation is contrary to the traditional Jewish understanding of the passage.  He points out that in the Targums, the passage is paraphrased as: “Whoever sheds men’s blood before witnesses, by sentence of a judge his blood should be shed” (emphasis added).  Bellarmine concludes that Genesis 9:6 “must be taken as an order and a precept.”  Even Brugger admits that attempts to reinterpret the passage are hard to defend, and concedes that it remains a “problem” for his radical abolitionist position (Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition, p. 73).

Yet Fastiggi claims otherwise.  He writes:

This Scripture… can actually be used against the death penalty since the death penalty involves killing.  In fact, Benedict XVI, in his 2012 Post-Synodal Exhortation, Ecclesia in Medio Oriente, n. 26 cites Genesis 9:6 as evidence that God forbids the killing of even those who commit murder: “God wants life, not death. He forbids all killing, even of those who kill (cf. Gen 4:15-16; 9:5-6; Ex 20:13).”  In Fratelli Tutti, 270, Pope Francis cites Gen 9:6 in his section against the death penalty for this Scripture stands as a warning to “those tempted to yield to violence in any form.”

But this line of argument is problematic in several ways.  First, Pope Benedict’s exhortation was not addressing the subject of capital punishment.  As the reader can easily verify by looking at the text, the context in which he made the remark in question was a discussion of the idea of religious toleration.  What the pope was saying is that the attempt to coerce others into adopting one’s own religious point of view sometimes results in violence and even killing, and that God does not approve of this.  The pope was not even addressing the topic of criminal justice, let alone the question of what sorts of punishments are appropriate for which crimes.

Now, it is standard methodology when interpreting papal texts to take such context into account, and to be very cautious about extrapolating momentous implications about a particular subject from papal remarks made in passing in a discourse devoted to a completely different subject.  Fastiggi violates this methodological principle by insinuating that Benedict’s remark implies some radical reinterpretation of Genesis 9:6 and, by implication, some revolutionary teaching vis-à-vis capital punishment.

Second, it is in any event highly misleading to imply, as Fastiggi does, that Benedict was “cit[ing] Genesis 9:6 as evidence that God forbids the killing of even those who commit murder.”  For one thing, the pope does not pinpoint Genesis 9:6 specifically and then make an explicit comment about how to interpret it.  Rather, he simply includes it in a string of scriptural references that are implied to have some bearing – exactly what bearing, in the case of any of the individual Scriptural passages, is not specified – on God’s will vis-à-vis killing.  Benedict never explicitly makes, concerning Genesis 9:6, the claim that Fastiggi attributes to him.

For another thing, it is quite ridiculous on its face to suggest that Genesis 9:6 teaches that “God forbids the killing of even those who commit murder.”  Again, this passage has for millennia consistently been understood by Catholic and Jewish exegetes to be teaching the opposite.  Even modern liberal exegetes who have tried to reinterpret it have only ever claimed that the passage is neutral about capital punishment, and they have had to strain credulity to go even that far (as, again, even Brugger concedes).  To suggest, as Fastiggi does, that the passage is actually condemning capital punishment, is to imply that Jewish and Christian exegetes, traditional and liberal alike, have all been misreading it for millennia, and that its true import was revealed only a few years ago in a passing and oblique reference in a minor papal exhortation addressing an unrelated topic.  With all due respect to Fastiggi, this doesn’t pass the laugh test.

Nor is it remotely plausible to attribute such an interpretation to Pope Benedict XVI, of all people.  Benedict’s program was, famously, a “hermeneutic of continuity” that eschewed rupture with traditional Catholic teaching.  It is absurd to propose that he intended radically to subvert the traditional reading of Genesis 9:6, and with it the Church’s perennial teaching that the death penalty is not intrinsically immoral.  It is doubly absurd to suppose that he would do so in a way that was so extremely subtle and inexplicit that no one even knew about it until Fastiggi drew our attention to it.  Moreover, while head of the CDF, then-Cardinal Ratzinger stated in a 2004 memorandum that “it may still be permissible… to have recourse to capital punishment” and that “there may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about… applying the death penalty.”  He could not have said such things if he believed that Genesis 9:6 absolutely forbade the execution of murderers.  Once again manifesting a degree of intellectual honesty that too many Catholic opponents of capital punishment lack, Brugger acknowledges in the second edition of his book that in reality, Benedict XVI was “inclined to accentuate the continuity that exists between the tradition and the moves of his predecessor” vis-à-vis capital punishment, rather than to take John Paul II’s teaching in a more radically abolitionist direction (p. xx).

To come to Fratelli Tutti, it is true that, in the context of criticizing the death penalty, Pope Francis includes Genesis 9:6 in a list of passages that he says warn of the consequences of violence.  But he is not addressing, much less answering, exegetical questions about the precise meaning of the passage.  And Pope Francis’s habit of speaking with imprecision should make any responsible theologian wary of drawing momentous theological conclusions about some topic from remarks of his that are not directly aimed at that topic.

Consider, for example, Francis’s remark in Evangelii Gaudium that “the first and the greatest of the commandments, and the one that best identifies us as Christ’s disciples [is]: ‘This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.’”  What scripture actually says, of course, is:

When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, and one of them tested him by asking, “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.  This is the greatest and the first commandment.” (Matthew 22: 34-38)

Should we conclude that we have somehow been misunderstanding Matthew 22 for two millennia, and that Francis has at last revealed what Christ actually taught is the first and greatest commandment?  That would, of course, be absurd.  Quite obviously, the pope’s remark is simply mistaken, and he was not speaking precisely.  That would be enough of a reason to refrain from drawing some revisionary theological conclusion from his remark, but it is reinforced by the fact that he was not explicitly trying to settle a matter of scriptural exegesis in the first place.

The same thing is true of the remark in Fratelli Tutti.  The pope simply gathers scriptural texts to illustrate the idea that violence has bad consequences.  He does not say that his aim is to settle any exegetical controversy about the proper interpretation of Genesis 9:6.

The Mosaic Law versus the Gospel?

Fastiggi points out in part 1 of his series that the Old Testament permitted slavery and polygamy, and that God even enabled the latter in the case of King David.  Yet the Church has nevertheless rightly forbidden these things.  He suggests that the case of capital punishment is similar.  Even though the Old Testament allowed it, the Church can and should forbid it now in an absolute way.

But this is a false analogy.  The first problem with it is that the Old Testament merely permits, but does not require, slavery and polygamy.  The Israelites are not told that they must take slaves or marry more than one woman.  They are told at most only that if they do these things, then there are certain conditions they must follow.  By contrast, the use of the death penalty is positively commanded many times in the Old Testament.  Moreover, these commands are not ad hoc in nature, directed to some specific temporary purpose (as are divine directives to the Israelites to destroy this or that pagan city, say).  Rather, the Mosaic Law makes the death penalty a standing and normal part of the everyday life of the nation of Israel.

Hence, if capital punishment were intrinsically or of its very nature “an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person,” we would be left with the conclusion that scripture not only permitted, but positively commanded the Israelites to set up the very structure of their society in a manner that was inherently and gravely contrary to the good of human beings.  We would be left with the conclusion that scripture thereby led the Israelites into grave moral error.  But that is not possible given the Church’s doctrine that scripture cannot teach moral error.

Perhaps Fastiggi would acknowledge that it was not wrong for the Israelites to make use of capital punishment, but hold that it is nevertheless wrong to make use of it under the New Covenant, given the higher moral demands of the Gospel.  Now, one problem with this is that the New Testament, too, explicitly affirms the legitimacy of the death penalty in some cases.  For example, as Bellarmine pointed out, the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira in the Acts of the Apostles are essentially divine executions carried out at the behest of St. Peter.  In other words, the first pope not only approved of capital punishment, but inflicted it himself.  (I have discussed and defended Bellarmine’s interpretation of this passage in an another article.)

Romans 13:4 famously teaches that the governing authority “does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.”  This has for two thousand years been understood by Catholic theologians to affirm the legitimacy of capital punishment.  Church Fathers such as Tertullian, Origen, Ambrose, and Augustine read it this way, as do Doctors of the Church like Aquinas and Bellarmine.  Even Brugger admits that there was a patristic and medieval “consensus” on this as the correct reading (Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition, p. 112).

Fastiggi makes a passing reference to a speech from Pope Pius XII that alludes to Romans 13:4, and suggests that Pius somehow distanced himself from the traditional interpretation.  Fastiggi doesn’t explain exactly how – nor could he have, since Pius says no such thing in that passage.  Indeed, Pius isn’t even addressing the topic of capital punishment at all in the passage.  And in fact, as is well known, when Pius XII did discuss capital punishment, he clearly and firmly endorsed it.  (Fastiggi is likely borrowing here from John Finnis, who has vainly tried to make hay out of this passage from Pius XII.  I refuted Finnis’s flimsy arguments at length here and here.)

Bessette and I address Romans 13:4 and other relevant New Testament passages at length at pp. 103-111 of our book.  I also address attempts to reinterpret Romans 13:4 in my response to Hart, linked to above.  Fastiggi offers no response to most of what we say.

But there is yet another problem with Fastiggi’s suggestion that capital punishment, while permissible in Old Testament times, is immoral given the higher demands of the Gospel.  The problem is that the Church for two millennia has taught the contrary.  Indeed, on several occasions the Magisterium directly addressed this thesis and explicitly rejected it.  For example, in 405, a bishop inquired with Pope St. Innocent I about whether civil authorities had to refrain from using capital punishment after converting to Christianity.  The pope answered in the negative, appealing to Romans 13 and suggesting that to forbid capital punishment would “overturn sound order… [and] go against the authority of the Lord.” 

In response to this, Fastiggi notes that Innocent begins his response to the bishop with the remark that “about these matters we read nothing definitive from the forefathers,” and suggests that this somehow poses a problem for those who would appeal to Pope Innocent in defense of capital punishment.  But there are two problems with Fastiggi’s claim, whatever the significance of Innocent’s remark (which isn’t obvious).  First, Fastiggi leaves out what Innocent immediately says next:

For they [the forefathers] had remembered that these powers had been granted by God and that for the sake of punishing harm-doers the sword had been allowed; in this way a minister of God, an avenger, has been given.  How therefore would they criticize something which they see to have been granted through the authority of God?

Needless to say, that is pretty definitive.  Innocent says that the power of execution was granted to the state by God, and that precisely for that reason, the forefathers would not criticize the death penalty.  Second, whatever the forefathers had to say, what matters is that Pope Innocent I’s remark is itself definitive.  For whatever the forefathers thought, he, as pope, was being asked to make an authoritative decision by a bishop who wasn’t sure what to think.  And his response isn’t to waver, but on the contrary, firmly to declare that to condemn capital punishment as inherently wrong would be “to go against the authority of the Lord.”

But there is further papal teaching along these lines.  For instance, in 1210, Pope Innocent III not only rejected the claim of the Waldensian heretics that Christians could not resort to capital punishment, but made repudiation of this thesis a condition of their reunion with the Church.  Fastiggi alleges that in insisting that the death penalty could be inflicted “without mortal sin,” Pope Innocent was merely making a point about the subjective culpability of public officials rather than the moral character of the act of execution itself.  But Bessette and I answered this sort of dodge in our book (at pp. 124-125).  The statement that Innocent required the Waldensians to assent to reads, in full, as follows:

We declare that the secular power can without mortal sin impose a judgment of blood provided the punishment is carried out not in hatred but with good judgment, not inconsiderately, but after mature deliberation.

Furthermore, in an earlier letter to a Waldensian leader, Pope Innocent wrote:

Let none of you presume to assert the following: that the secular power cannot carry out a judgment of blood without mortal sin.  This is an error because the law, not the judge, puts to death so long as the punishment is imposed, not in hatred, nor rashly, but with deliberation.

Notice that the pope is not saying merely that a person might not be culpable for sin when inflicting the death penalty – as if inflicting it might still be intrinsically wrong, and it’s just that the executioner doesn’t know any better, or acts under the influence of strong emotion, and thus doesn’t meet the conditions for mortal sin.  No, the pope says instead that even when acting with “good judgment,” “mature deliberation,” “not in hatred, nor rashly,” etc. one can in that case be blameless in inflicting the death penalty.  And he says that “the law” itself requires this, not the fallible judgment of the individual.  Once again, even Brugger admits that those who share his abolitionism do not have a strong case here, and that Pope Innocent did indeed intend to teach that capital punishment itself is licit, not merely that those who inflict it might lack subjective culpability (Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition, p. 107).

Yet another relevant papal statement is Pope Leo X’s condemnation of Luther’s thesis that the execution of heretics is against the divine will.  Then there is Pope St. Pius V’s promulgation of the Roman Catechism, which was, naturally, intended as a guide to living according to the principles of the Gospel, and directed to the Church universally rather than merely addressing some specific and contingent set of circumstances.  This catechism enthusiastically endorses capital punishment for murderers, saying that “the just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder.”  In the twentieth century, Pope Pius XII taught that “it is reserved… to the public authority to deprive the criminal of the benefit of life when already, by his crime, he has deprived himself of the right to live.”

In our book, Bessette and I discuss these and other relevant papal statements on the subject of capital punishment at length.  Now, if capital punishment really were inherently contrary to the demands of the Gospel, we would have to say that the Church has for two millennia consistently and gravely misled the faithful on a matter of fundamental moral importance.  We would have to say that when directly addressing the question of whether the Gospel rules out capital punishment, popes Innocent I, Innocent III, and Leo X all got it wrong.  Indeed, we would have to say that the heretics whom Innocent III and Leo X were criticizing were right, and the popes were wrong.

This is Fastiggi’s idea of upholding the authority of the Magisterium?!  Which is more likely to reinforce the Church’s credibility?  The view that scripture and two millennia of magisterial teaching were right, and that Pope Francis’s revision to the Catechism is badly formulated and should be revisited in order to make it more clearly consistent with the tradition?  Or the view that the Church has gotten things wrong for two millennia, and that only Pope Francis has somehow finally seen the truth?  To ask these questions is to answer them.

There is a further irony here.  Commenting on Pope Innocent I’s affirmation of the legitimacy of the death penalty, Fastiggi claims that Innocent also allowed “torture,” and suggests that this should lead us to reject what he says about capital punishment.  One problem with this is that Fastiggi does not explain why the word he translates as “torture” should be understood to refer to torments intended to break the will (which would be torture, and immoral) as opposed to lesser corporal punishments (which would not be). 

But leaving that aside, it is odd that Fastiggi, in order to defend one pope (Francis) against the charge of error, accuses another pope (Innocent) of error!  If he is going to suggest that Innocent erred, then how can he consistently object to those who suggest that Francis has erred?  Moreover, the cases are not parallel, because there is a clear and consistent tradition, from scripture through two thousand years of magisterial teaching, in favor of the legitimacy in principle of capital punishment.  But there is no such tradition with respect to torture.  Hence, if Innocent can be wrong about torture, then, a fortiori, Francis can be wrong about capital punishment.  Fastiggi thinks that his point about Pope Innocent helps his case, but in fact it hurts his case.

The Ratzinger memorandum

During the 2004 U.S. presidential election, the question whether Catholic politicians who support abortion or euthanasia should be denied Holy Communion became a hot button issue.  Some suggested that if these politicians were denied Communion, then Catholic politicians who supported capital punishment or the Iraq War should be denied it as well.

To clarify the matter, Cardinal Ratzinger, who was then Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, sent a memorandum titled “Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion: General Principles” (which I briefly referred to above) to then-Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, who was at the time the archbishop of Washington, D.C.  (McCarrick has, of course, since been disgraced and defrocked, though that is irrelevant to the present issue.)  Ratzinger noted that the cases are not at all parallel, writing:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.  For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion.  While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment.  There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Notice several things about this teaching.  As is well known, Pope St. John Paul II held that the cases where capital punishment is necessary to protect society are “very rare, if not practically nonexistent” (as the 1997 version of the Catechism puts it).  Indeed, the pope made even stronger statements at other times, calling the death penalty “cruel and unnecessary” and calling for its outright abolition.  All the same, Ratzinger acknowledged that “there may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about… applying the death penalty,” and indeed that a Catholic in good standing could even be “at odds with the Holy Father” on the subject.  He could not have said that if assent to the pope’s position was obligatory.  And notice that this is true even though the pope’s prudential judgment concerned a matter of grave moral importance, and was put forward publicly, repeatedly, and in stern moralistic terms.

Note also the reference to “civil authorities,” and how war and recourse to capital punishment can in some cases be permissible despite the fact that the Church urges such authorities to seek peace and exercise mercy on criminals.  The clear implication is that it is ultimately civil authorities who have the responsibility to make a prudential judgment about whether capital punishment is necessary, just as they have the responsibility to determine whether war is necessary.

Some have claimed that the memorandum merely reflects Cardinal Ratzinger’s personal opinion as a private theologian.  But this is clearly not the case.  Ratzinger was writing, not as a private theologian, but precisely in his official capacity as Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.  And he was writing to a fellow bishop precisely to clarify for him a matter of Church doctrine and discipline.

Furthermore, the passage from the memo quoted above was incorporated almost verbatim into a USCCB document written by Archbishop William Levada (who would later succeed Ratzinger as head of CDF).  The purpose of this document was precisely to clarify for Catholics the same issues Ratzinger aimed to clarify in his memo.  And the fact that a USCCB document incorporates the passage in question obviously indicates that it has doctrinal weight, and is not merely Ratzinger’s personal opinion.  It is worth adding that even Brugger acknowledges, in the second edition of his book, that the memo was written by Ratzinger “as prefect of the CDF” (Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition, p. xxviii).

Now, keep in mind that as head of CDF, Ratzinger’s job was to be Pope St. John Paul II’s doctrinal spokesman.  Hence he was an authoritative interpreter of the pope’s teaching on the issue of capital punishment.  Since he explicitly said that there could be “a legitimate diversity of opinion” about the matter even among faithful Catholics – and indeed, that faithful Catholics could even be “at odds with” the pope on the matter – it follows that Pope John Paul II’s position that capital punishment is no longer needed was not something Catholics are obligated to agree with.

How is this relevant to Pope Francis’s revision of the Catechism?  The main difference between John Paul’s teaching and Francis’s teaching is that the former allowed that there may still be rare cases where capital punishment is needed in order to protect society, whereas the latter denies that.  Even Francis’s appeal to the “dignity of the person” is not novel, because Pope John Paul II made the same appeal when criticizing capital punishment.  For example, the 1997 edition of the Catechism says that non-lethal means of dealing with offenders are preferable because they are “more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.”

Now, John Paul II’s view that the cases where capital punishment is still needed to protect society are “very rare, if not practically nonexistent” was of its very nature a prudential judgment concerning matters of social science, law, criminology, etc. about which popes have no special expertise.  For that reason, as Cardinal Ratzinger made clear, Catholics were not obligated to agree with that judgment.  But Francis’s view that non-lethal means are in every case sufficient to “ensure the due protection” of society is also, of its very nature, a prudential judgment concerning matters of social science, law, criminology, etc. about which popes have no special expertise.  So, how can Catholics be obligated to assent to the latter view any more than they were obligated to assent to the former?  What the Ratzinger memorandum says about John Paul’s teaching applies mutatis mutandis to Francis’s teaching.

In part 3 of his series, Fastiggi responds to those who argue that the Ratzinger memorandum supports the view that papal opposition to capital punishment amounts to a prudential judgement with which Catholics are not obligated to agree.  Fastiggi concedes that “perhaps that argument could have been used prior to the 2018 revision” to the Catechism.  However, he says, “it cannot be used now” because “that memorandum has been superseded by the change” to the Catechism, along with the CDF’s explanation of the change.  For one thing, says Fastiggi, “the revised text of the [Catechism] articulates a moral judgment that is not merely prudential.”  For another thing, the Ratzinger memorandum was in any case “never intended for publication, as Cardinal Ladaria [then prefect of the CDF] has explained” but was “just a private communication to some bishops.”

Fastiggi supposes, then, that both the nature of the 2018 revision to the Catechism and Cardinal Ladaria’s comments about the 2004 Ratzinger memorandum render that memorandum moot and undermine any argument based on it.  But both of these suppositions are false. 

First, it is easy to show that the revision to the Catechism, no less than John Paul II’s statements on capital punishment, does reflect merely prudential considerations.  For the revised text appeals not only to human dignity, but also to the assumption that “more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.”  Similarly, in his letter to the bishops explaining the change to the Catechism, Cardinal Ladaria says that part of the reason for the change has to do with “the development of more efficacious detention systems that guarantee the due protection of citizens,” with worries about “the defective selectivity of the criminal justice system and… the possibility of judicial error,” with the judgment that “modern society possesses more efficient detention systems, [so that] the death penalty becomes unnecessary as protection for the life of innocent people,” and so on. 

These are statements concerning matters of empirical fact about which churchmen have no more expertise than they have about stamp collecting, electrical engineering, or gardening.  They are inherently prudential rather than doctrinal or moral in nature.  And if these prudential judgments are mistaken (and in our book, Bessette and I argue that they are mistaken), then the justification for the conclusion that the death penalty ought entirely to be abolished is thereby undermined. 

It is also worth noting that Ladaria’s letter urges civil authorities “to encourage the creation of conditions that allow for the elimination of the death penalty where it is still in effect” (emphasis added).  That implies that it may not in fact practically be possible to eliminate capital punishment everywhere.  And it therefore implies in turn that abolishing capital punishment is not in fact an imperative that follows from moral principle alone, but rather follows only when empirical conditions allow for it.  But whether such conditions allow for it is, in the nature of the case, a prudential matter.

All things considered, then, while the rhetoric of the revision to the Catechism is certainly stronger than that of John Paul II, the actual substance of the teaching is essentially the same.  Hence, as I argued above, if the 2004 Ratzinger memorandum applied to John Paul II’s version of the Catechism, then why would it not apply as well to Francis’s version?

Nor, contrary to what Fastiggi seems to think, do Cardinal Ladaria’s comments about the Ratzinger memorandum show otherwise.  These comments were made in a 2021 letter to Archbishop Gomez concerning the USCCB’s intention of drafting guidelines for dealing with “Catholics in public office who support legislation allowing abortion, euthanasia, or other moral evils” yet want to receive Holy Communion.  Because the 2004 Ratzinger memorandum addressed precisely this issue, it comes up in the exchange between Gomez and Ladaria.  As Fastiggi says, Ladaria does indeed note that the memorandum “was not intended for publication” but “was a private communication addressed to the bishops” (and Ladaria says “the bishops” – not, contrary to what Fastiggi implies, “some bishops”).  

Now, contrary to what Fastiggi insinuates, the fact that Ratzinger’s memorandum was originally intended to be private is irrelevant to the issue at hand.  For one thing, the memorandum was still not merely the private opinion of Cardinal Ratzinger.  Again, it was an official act of the Prefect of the CDF, acting to clarify for the U.S. bishops the bearing of Catholic doctrine on a matter of current controversy.  The fact that the memorandum was meant for the eyes of the bishops rather than the general public doesn’t change that fact or somehow magically render it irrelevant to understanding John Paul II’s teaching on capital punishment.

Furthermore, Fastiggi fails to mention two crucial aspects of Ladaria’s letter to Gomez.  First, Ladaria does not say or in any way imply that the 2004 memorandum has been superseded or is otherwise irrelevant.   On the contrary, he tells Gomez that the principles set out by Ratzinger in the memorandum “may be of assistance in the preparation of the draft of your document”!  That is to say, far from telling Gomez and the U.S. bishops that they should now ignore the 2004 memorandum, he explicitly says that they may make use of it.

Second, Ladaria in no way qualifies this advice in light of the 2018 revision to the Catechism.  Indeed, the topic of capital punishment is not mentioned at all in Ladaria’s letter to Gomez.  If Fastiggi were correct, you would expect Ladaria to say that, in light of the revision, the U.S. bishops should no longer use Ratzinger’s 2004 memorandum, or at least no longer use the part of it that deals with capital punishment.  But not only does Ladaria not say that, he says that they may use the memorandum, while saying nothing at all about the topic of capital punishment.  That would be a remarkable omission if the 2004 memorandum’s teaching on capital punishment really were a dead letter in light of the 2018 revision to the Catechism. 

If anything, then, Ladaria’s 2021 letter supports rather than undermines the argument I’ve been defending.  Once again, what Fastiggi supposes helps his case actually hurts his case.

Odds and ends

As I have said, in a Catholic World Report article from some years back, I argue that the ordinary Magisterium of the Church has taught infallibly that capital punishment is not intrinsically wrong.  Fastiggi does not answer those arguments, but in support of the claim that this has not been infallibly taught, he directs his readers to two articles by Brugger at Public Discourse, here and here.  But I answered Brugger in my own series of articles at Public Discourse, here and here.  Fastiggi also commends to his readers two articles by Finnis, here and here.  But I answered Finnis too, here and here.  And Fastiggi calls his readers’ attention to two Catholic World Report articles wherein he has criticized my views, here and here.  But I have answered those articles as well, here and here.  I have also criticized Fastiggi’s views in two further articles, here and here.  I urge Fastiggi’s readers to remember that there are two sides to every debate, and that they should read and consider what I have actually said, and not only what Fastiggi, Brugger, Finnis, Hart, et al. claim I have said.

In part 4 of his series, Fastiggi asks, rhetorically: “Is fidelity to the death penalty more important than fidelity to the Magisterium?”  But this too attacks a straw man, because nobody claims in the first place that fidelity to the death penalty is more important than fidelity to the Magisterium.  In reality, the critics of the revision to the Catechism are no less loyal to the Magisterium than Fastiggi is.  But they insist that loyalty to the Magisterium involves more than loyalty to Pope Francis alone (even if it does, of course, involve that) – it involves loyalty to the consistent teaching of scripture, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, and all previous popes.  And they insist too that loyalty to the Magisterium is perfectly consistent with the respectful criticism of problematic magisterial statements that the Magisterium itself acknowledges to be permissible in Donum Veritatis.  Fastiggi has every right to criticize the views of the critics of the revision.  But he has no right to pretend to be “more loyal than thou.”

154 comments:

  1. The death penalty in the OT doesn't mean what you think it means!

    In Deuteronomy 28, a list of horrific curses are described as being poured on the disobedient sinner, ultimately cumulating in the sinner's "death". But in Deuteronomy 30 the sinner is promised that after he's "dead", He will undo all the curses and restore him to the promised land, and place a new heart in him and obey the L-rd forever.

    St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross, ora pro nobis.

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    1. WCB

      In Moses's 613 laws, a number of them mandate death penalties. And then we have God's mandates to kill in Joshua. "Leave none that breatheth".

      The Old Testament mandates death penalties.

      WCB

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    2. In chapter 30, the "returning" that is predicted is not that of the very same individuals who sinned so greatly, it is for the people as a people, i.e. primarily those who are descendants of the sinners who rejected God. We see this prophecy played out in the 70 years of Israel's exile, after which "they returned". But almost none of the individuals who went into exile returned, only a tiny handful (and, we may presume, not those who had sinned in this way).

      Similarly, Israel wandered the desert under Moses for 40 years, because they rejected the Lord: in fear, they refused to take on the task of overcoming the tribes in the land of Canaan. God sent them wandering 40 years, so that the men of fighting age who refused to fight would die:

      As surely as I live, declares the Lord, I will do to you the very thing I heard you say: 29 In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. 30 Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. 31 As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected. 32 But as for you, your bodies will fall in this wilderness. Numbers 14:28-32

      The Israelites had moved about in the wilderness forty years until all the men who were of military age when they left Egypt had died, since they had not obeyed the Lord. For the Lord had sworn to them that they would not see the land he had solemnly promised their ancestors to give us, a land flowing with milk and honey. 7 So he raised up their sons in their place,... Joshua 5:6-7

      God did not raise back to life the men who died in the 40 years, the promise of restoration was to "the people" considered as a nation, but not to the individuals who had sinned.

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    3. @Tony

      In the OT, cursing is not the same as punishment. God says that cursing His children makes Him happy: "And just as the Lord took delight in making you prosperous and numerous, so the Lord will take delight in bringing you to ruin and destruction" (Deut 28:63 NRSVCE) But He says that punishing His children does not make Him happy: "for He does not willingly afflict or grieve anyone." (Lam 3:33 NRSVCE)

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    4. The curses were in pursuit of punishment, and the threat of the curses (if they turned away from God) were threats of punishments.

      As Aquinas says, God does not delight in punishment for its own sake, but for the sake of justice, which is a good. And he delights in justice, for it is good.

      But either way, whether God is inflicting death as a curse or as a punishment (if you want to distinguish them), if he wants to restore the punished after death, He can raise him back up again from death to do so. In which case, the DP is no hindrance to this restoration. But the DP remains part of the divine plan for justice.

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    5. @Tony

      Punishment = no hope. When the judge sentences you, that means you have no more future.

      Cursing is a horror and something definitely to avoid (nothing described in Deuteronomy 28 is pleasant) but there's no sense of there being no more future like there is for punishment.

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    6. Holy:

      It means, if saved, an eternity in Christ.

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    7. Punishment = no hope. When the judge sentences you, that means you have no more future.

      This makes no sense whatsoever. The popes expressly talk about bearing your punishments (both the DP and the lesser kinds) as expiation for sins. In this expiation, (if done with perfect will), you have satisfied for all of the temporal punishment due for the sins: if the punishment is DP and you have satisfied all temporal punishment due for sin, you would go straight to heaven. Like the Christians who suffered UNJUST death hoping in Christ's death and resurrection as their promise of heaven, the Christian who willingly suffers a JUST punishment of death also hopes in the promise of heaven (and the promise of the resurrection).

      Perhaps what you mean is: those condemned to the DP have no hope of returning to a normal living in this life after serving their sentence.

      So? That's the due and proportionate punishment for maliciously taking away the life of an innocent person.

      Yes, they have no hope of returning to their old life of sin and crimes. Nor do they have any hope of returning to their old life but changed by not committing sins and crimes. But if that person is, and has been, acting rightly since being caught and put on trial, they would have ALREADY repented of their sins, they would ALREADY be living an upright life for Christ, they would ALREADY be suffering (with good will and patience) the temporary jail time (during trial) that is their due, they would ALREADY BE LIVING according to God's word, and they could continue to go on doing all of that right living up to the moment of death, and at that moment have a firm hope of heaven.

      In short, they can be doing exactly the kind of good living that ALL of us should be doing, and they can accept in good faith in God's plan any suffering that comes their way as their allotted piece of that divine plan, they can offer up their suffering "to make up what is lacking in the suffering of Christ", they can be saints just like those not condemned to an early death. This is to live with right hope.

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    8. Troy writes: "Punishment = no hope. When the judge sentences you, that means you have no more future."

      The accepted, if saved, is that we have eternity in Christ, where all hope lies, and if not saved, an eternity elsewhere.

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  2. Let me pose a scenario that raises an interesting (set of) question(s): Let us suppose, as a hypothetical, that Francis became aware of important deficiencies (even, errors) in the 2000-year traditional teaching of the Church on DP, and felt he had an obligation to repair that, because DP is immoral even in principle.

    Wouldn't any rational person set out to right the problem by actually tackling the defects head on, e.g. taking erroneous interpretations of Scripture and showing how they are rightly interpreted, and how the error had crept in? Show how comments by the Fathers of the Church should be rightly held, or (in some cases) simply rejected, and showing with precision how there had been no consensus of the Fathers on such point? Show how the natural moral law is rightly to consider human dignity and human justice, then show how the traditional teaching of human dignity, based on the divine image, leads us to reject DP even in principle, and then show how to interpret Genesis 9:6? Show how the Doctors of the Church, in spite of universal support of DP at least in principle, are to be dealt with on this topic (without discrediting them as doctors)? And show how the most recent pope to teach on this point, JPII, though a saint, (and possibly a future doctor), made an error in saying that DP is morally licit in principle, and we should not follow his teaching.

    That is to say: wouldn't a responsible teacher, if he had discovered such an error, TEACH so as to clear up the confusion that hitherto had held sway? Isn't that exactly the intended purpose of a magisterial teaching authority?

    Is there some principle, so far not mentioned in a thousand articles on this topic, that requires that Francis not bring forth into the light the actual reasons that explain what was the core error behind past teaching and exactly how the new principles correct those errors? Is there something that FORBIDS that Francis from spelling out the corrective truth in detail, so it can be seen without confusion? Is there some force that blocks him, however willing he was, from being expansive on exactly how the very dignity we thought justified the DP now requires its abolition? Is there some Canon law, or ancient Church rule, that secretly constrains even a pope from being forthright with the fullness of the rationale that gets us from "the death penalty is in principle morally licit" to "the death penalty is always wrong" in only 20 years, by "development"?

    And, finally, is a CATECHISM the right location for trying to work out, with multiple passes, the right formulation for how to think about an issue? Or are catechisms rather the place for settled, tried and true teachings about which important development is not currently taking place?

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    1. Except that is not what we are speaking of, nor will we, as that is not the issue.

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  3. Gosh I finished this post in it's entirety. Agree with nearly everything that has been written.

    No scholarship, perhaps, has been more decisively antithetical to one's own cause than Brugger's it seems. Talk about steel-maning your opposition's arguments. My man did such an in-depth biblical study only to conclude that it won't be really helpful to his case. But the study in itself is that precise and worthy of appreciation so much so that his critics cite it in their favour. I remember Prof Feser pointing this out at the time as well.

    I will also say this

    I think it's a bit irreverent to dismiss the prudential judgements of Pope St John Paul II (or Even Pope Benedict XVI) on the grounds that he wasn't an "expert" or didn't have a degree on the issue. It's also a common rhetorical tactics of liberals who have reduced many fields in the humanities stream to channels for their ideological escapades.Pope John Paul II was one of the greatest intellectuals of the 20th century. Well Travelled, Well Read and A Scholar in his Own Right especially in the fields of speculative and practical ethics. This was acknowledged by everyone around him including Pope Benedict XVI, a scholar in himself.

    The Pope was eventually proven right on the Iraq war as well (When the dust settled, it was clear that WMD's could have existed on anywhere else on this blue planet except for Iraq) and this point was acknowledged by Prof Feser recently who was admittedly a staunch supporter of the war. So respectfully, that's atleast 1 for Pope JPII over Feser:)

    So while agreeing with everything else in this post, I would rather put a disclaimer of, "Ignore the prudential judgements of Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II at your own risk."

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    1. "John Paul II was one of the greatest intellectuals of the 20th century." Was he? How to establish such a claim?

      Regardless, being a great intellectual clearly does not imply having sound prudential judgment. As for Iraq and WMDs, perhaps best not to pretend to prove anything by opening up that rather complex and likely irrelevant can of straw worms.

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    2. (If you're unaware of any serious lapses of prudential judgment on the parts of JPII or BXVI (especially the former), maybe you haven't been paying close enough attention.)

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    3. If you're unaware of any serious lapses of prudential judgment on the parts of JPII or BXVI

      You couldn't mean, like, the appointment of McCarrick as bishop, and then cardinal? Or Kardinal Kasper. Or Kardinal Marx. Or Cardinal Daneels. Or Cardinal Silvestrini. Or Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor. Or Cardinal Lehmanm. (The S. Gallen mafia). Or hundreds of bishops who apparently can't locate ancient dogma if their life depends on it. Like that?

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    4. David
      It's certainly relevant to the issues at hand. And Professor Feser himself as used the example of Papal pronouncements on war.
      To quote
      ""Now, in hindsight one could certainly argue that the pope and other churchmen who criticized the Iraq War were in the right. But that doesn’t change the fact that their prudential judgment on this matter was not binding on Catholics. "
      And this is a quote where he seems to have changed his perspective on the Iraq War,
      "What “Where are the WMD?” was for the right, “What net good did lockdowns do?” ought to be for the left."

      I didn't condemn anyone who disagreed with John Paul II's prudence on the death penalty.
      I myself actually disagree with it to a certain extent.

      My point though was that when you disagree with a Saintly Pope like John Paul II, there's a good chance you might be erring. There's a chance you may not be erring also.

      The way in which the law has been weaponized these days against Political Opponents makes me wonder sometimes if JPII's prudence is right on the death penalty and if I was mistaken to not take it seriously .

      People argue that if Trump is guilty he should be charged. But the point isn't even about the charges, it's about the timing at which they decided to bring down all four indictments against him all at once in the middle of the election cycle.

      And if republicans come into power they will definitely seek revenge as well.

      For now atleast it's unlikely that people will weaponize the death penalty against Political opponents but I sometimes get the feeling it would be better if it was off the books in this day and age similar to what was expressed by Cardinal Avery Dulles.

      As for your question on serious lapses of those two popes, I doubt there were any serious lapses on their judgment in Theological, Historical ,Philosophical and Moral matters.

      If you want to bring up some administrative failures perhaps in the appointment of certain cardinals, be my guest but then that would be irrelevant to the question at hand.

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    5. "My point though was that when you disagree with a Saintly Pope like John Paul II, there's a good chance you might be erring. There's a chance you may not be erring also."

      That point is of course indisputable, but also utterly idle.

      If you think you can reduce the many prudential failures of JPII to the (supposedly inconsequential??) category of 'administrative failures,' believe what you will, but the label does nothing to diminish the very real gravity of such errors. Further, if that's the way you want to reason, one might just as well call the mix-up about those alleged WMDs in Iraq an 'administrative error,' but that likewise does nothing to diminish the fact of its being a disastrous prudential failure.

      As for serious lapses of judgment on theoretical matters, you are free to doubt those two popes had any. But I suspect your simple confidence in your two papal heroes is on this point too ill-considered.

      And finally I think it is certainly a mistake to assume that 'administrative'-type failures of prudential judgment, can be or be understood in isolation from errors in theoretical judgment. (Is it possible that's what VII and its aftermath was essentially all about: 'good theories' vitiated by 'administrative failures' (like good trees bearing bad fruit)? I'd be very diffident about the prospects for coherently untangling those two threads.)

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    6. "For now atleast it's unlikely that people will weaponize the death penalty against Political opponents but I sometimes get the feeling it would be better if it was off the books in this day and age similar to what was expressed by Cardinal Avery Dulles."

      Isn't this analogous to saying we should get surgery off the books because people might start doing horrific sexual mutilation surgeries on confused adolescents? From both practical and principled standpoints this kind of argument seems like straight nonsense.

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    7. David

      I don't think the point is idle because I said the chances of you erring are higher when disagreeing with a Pope of that stature.

      With regards to administrative error, I don't see how you could compare the WMD's to appointment of Cardinals.

      The WMD's were the entire justification for the war and the sufficient reason to go to war which is one of the four requirements of just war criteria. As such they atleast had to have absolute certainty that they were there, before unleashing mass death and destruction on an innocent populace. The immediate consequences and stakes are much higher.

      It can't be the case that they had undeniable proof of WMD's and the WMD's weren't there. They literally went on a hunch.
      And that's being charitable, the more likely scenario and worse
      scenario is that they knew that the weapons didn't exist yet invaded.

      That matter is completely different from judgments about a person's character which is much more difficult and arduous to make especially because people are quite apt at disguising their true motivations. I don't think you can infer from their lapses in appointments that their theoretical judgements were eschewed and shouldn't be taken seriously.

      As for your point on surgeries, there's simply no comparison, this or that surgery is always a necessary intervention as opposed to the death penalty.

      Both defenders and critics of the death penalty admit that it is possible atleast in theory to do away with the death penalty as it may not be required. The argument lies in whether we can actually apply it in the present circumstance.

      On this point there is a lot of room for deliberation. For example on the traditional natural law theory as articulated by Aquinas it is agreed that retribution alone can't be the reason for applying the death penalty, since we can't inflict perfect justice. Prof Feser makes this point in the book as well. We have to make recourse to the other reasons for the death penalty apart from retribution namely deterrence and rehabilitation. This is where Prof Feser and Prof Joseph make a convincing case for deterrence and rehabilitation.

      They argue that the death penalty is necessary every now and then to maintain that social order but it need not be inflicted everytime it is deserved. Sometimes you can make recourse to mercy as well.

      This implies that atleast in every possible case where the death penalty is deserved, there is a possible opportunity for mercy as well. Which cases to have mercy on and which cases to inflict the penalty are left to the judges discretion which may vary from judge to judge. No general rule.

      This is just not the case in surgeries where the intervention is almost always a necessary intervention. Considerations in surgeries are always very concrete and particular.Horrific mutilation surgeries don't change that.

      Considerations in death penalty apart from retribution are more general like deterrence etc.

      As such if a government is deliberately misusing the power of the death penalty on a large scale against political dissidents and if it's possible for the legislature to ban the death penalty atleast until the crisis is resolved. That option is legitimate because there are no particular cases where the death penalty is absolutely warranted and can be superseded by more higher considerations from time to time unlike surgeries which is about saving the innoncent life of this or that particular person.

      Again as I have said elsewhere on this post, these thoughts are just contemplations, not fully fledged arguments and my sensibilities still lie with allowing the death penalty for which I think the arguments are much stronger.

      Your oft-hand dismissals though of considerations which have been put forth by eminent natural law theorists like Cardinal Dulles as "nonsense" which you have done multiple times on my comments now,with some unrelated analogy, is rather uncharitable. Even if one finds them ultimately unconvincing, they atleast merit serious consideration and have to be contended with.

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    8. Norm, I think you're mostly just churning out point-missing irrelevance here, too much to be worth responding to. My alleged "off-hand dismissals," however, I will point out, are nothing of the kind, and it is your dismissal of my objections that is uncharitable. It appears to me that the ideas that you are lazily floating here are literally nonsense. If they are not, explain them. If they are, then don't fault me for pointing out the fact. "If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong;" otherwise spare me the bullshit about being 'uncharitable.'

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    9. Norm:

      On this topic I think that SPJPII's prudential judgments were neither prudent nor of good judgment, as detailed:

      "If the Pope’s defending society position has merit, then, again, the Church must actively support executions, as it offers an enhanced defense of society and greater protection for innocent life"

      "Contrary to the Church’s belief, that the Pope’s opinion represents a tougher stance against the death penalty, the opposite is true. When properly evaluated, the defending society position supports more executions. Had these issues been properly assessed, the Catechism would never have been amended — unless the Church endorses a position knowing that it would spare the lives of guilty murderers, at the cost of sacrificing more innocent victims."

      much more here:

      Pope John Paul II: His death penalty errors
      https://prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2022/04/october-1997-pope-john-paul-ii-his.html


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  4. The fact that prominent theologians and historians today share Hart's view on the OT (and similar ones on the NT), even in the Church, honestly plunges me into despair. (sorry for the off topic and pointless comment)

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    1. Bad Churchmen and heresy are NOT novel; they have been with us always. Do not despair, but take hope, for He has overcome the world.

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  5. Well argued and articulated but I also want to point out that there is a tendency in recent posts on this topic to ignore the world of pre-modern Catholicism, for lack of a better word, that resoundingly supported the Death Penalty. Of course it's not magisterial or authoritative but if one were to do a historical survey of the Catholic (or Christian) nations in the West from late antiquity to the 1800's, we would find resounding support for the death penalty in every facet of life. Foucault began his 'Discipline & Punish' by talking about the Death Penalty in late 1700's France, Derrida assumes the legitimacy of the Death Penalty (that it was permitted and celebrated) in his lectures on the topic. Both authors understood that the Death Penalty was a fact of life which is something that authors like Fastiggi seems to deny. How would he actually address the fact that the Death Penalty was approved by constant use and recourse in Christendom without thereby calling into question the legitimacy of Catholic teaching in general? I know the response will be "this is prudential" but that fails to address the novelty of interpreting the Death Penalty in terms of prudential judgment. (If one even agrees, prisons existed prior to the 1800's. While it has many flaws, I did find Foucault's 'D & P' very interesting and calls to question the 'prisons are more humanitarian than the Death Penalty' narrative assumed by the WPI crowd.)

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    1. WCB

      Pre-Modern Catholicism practiced death penaties, torture, religious wars and slavery. Lots of Catholic activities are no longer practiced. See The Syllabus Of Errors for more examples of Catholic demands no longer accepted. That was then, this is now.

      WCB

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    2. * I would like to clarify what I meant- it's a little confused lol. Fundamentally, online discourse on this topic only reflects "authoritative" texts but ignores the near universal application of the death penalty across nations (and therefore cases) throughout the history of Christendom. While itself not authoritative, all of those practitioners were endorsed and corroborated with the Catholic Church in doing so. While this isn't new information, it's irresponsible to solely limit the discussion to "authoritative" texts as they cloud the issue of how those texts were used/ implemented in their own time and afterwards. No person would have used Innocent to justify the eradication of the DP due to "prudential judgements." Indeed, the near constant refrain of the Church has been to endorse the use of DP at every opportunity until the modern era.

      It's a novelty of interpretation that has it's roots in the humanitarianism of the late 1700's, early 1800's. While no friend of the Church, Foucault's 'Discipline & Punish' (ironically) cemented my approval of the Death Penalty as the modern prison system is fundamentally far from benign. Furthermore, this is a worrying trend in Catholic discourse that the only thing that matters is the Papacy and any discussion is resolved in favor of who can submit a papal voice the fastest. The caricature that prots + orthodox create is quickly becoming an accurate portrayal of the Church

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    3. @WCB
      That's not really the point. The point is that the 'world' of pre-modern Catholicism endorsed the death penalty in such a way that attempts to limit are pathetic. And yes, I think the near total approval of everything in the Syllabus of Errors is a large mistake and one that undermines the credibility of the Church. While no one would suggest that the Catholic Church in 370, 1856, 1300, or 787 were the 'same' they were not opposed to one another. The modern Catholic Church, in practice if not in doctrine, often presents herself as if there was an opposition with the tradition (or past if you prefer.) Either way, the appeal of people like Fastiggi/ Lofton/ other centrists to "submit" for fear of "dissent" no longer carries the same weight.

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  6. "I think it's a bit irreverent to dismiss the prudential judgements of Pope St John Paul II (or Even Pope Benedict XVI) on the grounds that he wasn't an "expert" or didn't have a degree on the issue."

    That is not what is being argued. The claim is that the papal office does not give one special expertise in those matters and so does not obligate assent in the way it does on doctrinal matters. Feser never denies that respectful consideration of papal prudential judgments are required, only that they are not binding of assent in the same doctrinal claims are.

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    1. Yes, and think we can be more particular about this. As we descend from the categories of Church's teachings by magisterial officials (i.e. the bishops), we proceed not only through variation not only in the kind of assent we give, but also in the respect we give as well. In the top category, infallible teachings of revealed dogma, we give the assent of faith, (which is unreserved) and our utmost respect. In the second, infallible teachings of matters connected to revealed truth but not directly revealed, we assent also unreservedly, with very high respect. In the third category, normal teachings not taught infallibly but taught by prelates as to be held, we give religious assent, which is per se reserved assent, because it is not presented to us AS infallible, and we hold it as bearing room for correction. This implies, also, a lesser kind of respect for these teachings. About ALL of these, we affirm (with the Church) that the Holy Spirit is at work in protecting the bishops when they speak for Christ: in the first 2, that protection is particular and definite - the protection of the Holy Spirit means there is no error in the definitive statement, although that definitive statement might not be the most advantageous or most helpful way of presenting the truth. In the 3rd, the protection is NOT particular and definite: there might be some errors creeping into these, but such errors will not be permitted to such a degree as to ruin the Church, and generally will not positively affirm as absolutely good what is intrinsically evil.

      In the 4th category, prudential judgment by the bishops in which they apply general moral principles to particular situations, there is no protection by the Holy Spirit that they will get these right. And since the bishops also may have no particular human expertise in the specific field, the respect properly given to these judgments is lesser than that which is properly given to the first 3 categories: mainly, given to one whose office as bishop implies he generally speaks for Christ on faith and morals, i.e. we respect the office in giving respect to the prudential judgment. This is, clearly, a lower sort of respect than for the others.

      I would suggest, further, that just like when we listen to ordinary human experts when they proclaim on matters outside of their special expertise, giving them "due respect" means, more than anything, at least listening to their arguments (rather than dismissing them without considering them), but NOT willingness to accept them merely on account of their expertise in some other field. We test them and analyze them according to the merit of the arguments offered, and if they don't offer much in substantiating arguments, then to THAT extent, our respect for their assertions is very minimal indeed. Or if they offer manifestly poor arguments that have already been discarded by the current state of scholarship, then that diminishes even further any practical respect which we ought to grant them: we gave them the respect of bothering to read their comments, and listen attentively, but if they evince dreadfully bad arguments in favor of a position, then "due respect" does not move the needle much in favor of their position. If at all.

      If I have misunderstood the nature of the respect due to prelates' prudential opinions taught at large, I welcome correction.

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    2. Neil. I think that's fair.

      Perhaps it wasn't dismissive in that way.
      But in their book as well, the argument used against Pope JPII and Pope Benedict XVI revolve around their comments on dignity etc.

      I think that their outlook on the death penalty was shaped more by the time in which they lived. A time which saw the most horrific abuses of political power and authority.

      The death penalty is legitimate but it also has to be inflicted by a legitimate authority.

      Many would say, The moral deprivation of our times especially in western society renders the government as not worthy of being able to inflict such a penalty. This was Cardinal Avery Dulles view as well.

      A small point, I do think it's pertinent to be clear about what issues does the prudence of the church merit absolute obedience.

      There are lots of issues that our a matter of prudential judgement yet demand our assent. But I think these are issues the Church does have standing on since marriage is a sacrament hence their prudential judgement on the subject also commands obedience.

      Prohibitions on sibling marriages or first cousin marriages come to mind.
      These are not intrinsically evil per se but in so far as it is extremely likely society would collapse in on itself if such marriages were allowed. The church forbids it.

      The church also forbade inter religious marriages for a long time before allowing them with a dispensation and a wise disclaimer against it.

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    3. "Many would say, The moral deprivation of our times especially in western society renders the government as not worthy of being able to inflict such a penalty. This was Cardinal Avery Dulles view as well."

      Really! And what do such people think about non-western societies, say China, for example? Is it possible these people are exceptionally woke (i.e., stupid) and/or otherwise ideologically corrupt? How does such an argument even begin to make sense?

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    4. But I think these are issues the Church does have standing on since marriage is a sacrament hence their prudential judgement on the subject also commands obedience.

      Prohibitions on sibling marriages or first cousin marriages come to mind.
      These are not intrinsically evil per se but in so far as it is extremely likely society would collapse in on itself if such marriages were allowed.


      Norm, I think you are still missing the issue: when the Church issues laws, we have to OBEY them whether we think them good or poor laws, wise and prudent, or dumb. Obedience in action is laws require, not assent of mind. A pope or bishop making laws doesn't require us to believe they are prudent laws.

      Teachings, if in the top three categories, require our assent, though different kinds of assent for the 3 different types. Teachings in the prudential (4th) category do not require our assent. This was the point of Cardinal Ratzinger's (as head of CDF) intervention with Cardinal McCarrick's nonsense.

      It is true that very long-standing laws (and customs) do bear some respect, but this belongs to the natural law (and is the principled foundation for proper conservatism): reasonable and wholesome long-standing practices carve their way into a culture so they become protective of many goods in that culture, and respect for the goods they protect requires respect for the long-standing laws and customs. But this kind of respect does not require that we repudiate the possibility that some other culture can be good without our practices.

      St. Augustine points out one reason why allowing sibling marriage would be horribly damaging to society (besides the obvious biological concerns): Sibling marriage would become an easy way to cover up sexual abuse within the family; the taboo against incest protects weaker siblings from that prospect of abuse followed by intra-family marriage (and continued abuse). "Respect" for this law need be nothing more than respect for the good sense it exhibits in protecting society and promoting the common good.

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    5. The anonymous comment at 9:47 yesterday is mine. Sorry about not putting my name in.

      JPII and Francis made no attempt whatsoever, in discussing their prudential determinations that in today's conditions, the need for DP to protect society is rare or nonexistent, to address particular objections to that point of view. They just made VERY general, and very vague, references to the modern ability to keep society safe.

      The comments did nothing at all to even attempt to address arguments to the contrary, such as:
      (1) In today's prisons, because (in part) of a breakdown of culture, there are ongoing crimes against both prisoners and guards. In particular, those in prison for life without possibility of parole know they cannot be punished more (by longer sentences), and have no incentive from holding back in trying to force others to do their will. So they do. In some cases, confessed and convicted murderers expressly state that they intend to continue murdering when they can. (Are not other prisoners also deserving of our protection from crime?)
      (2) Organized crime leaders and gang leaders - while in prison - use their organizations that are outside of prison to cause further damage to the justice system: they bribe guards and prison officials, they threaten witnesses so they are too afraid to testify truthfully, they bribe juries, etc. In the opposite direction, the gangs use members who are in prison to carry out gang-related goals against other prisoners - including killings. Our "modern" penal systems cannot prevent these.
      (3) In spite of claims of "better" modern systems, what actually obtains is less overall reform of those of criminal intent. Norm says "The moral deprivation of our times especially in western society", which has its presence inside of prisons too. It is difficult, if not impossible, to disprove definitively that part of this penal degeneracy stems specifically from the dissociation of penal servitude from retributive justice, being replaced with a mentality of prison serving essentially to keep the criminals from harming people on the outside. If the degeneracy stems (in part) from this flawed dissociation, then arguably the corrective includes restoration of penalties that are primarily retributive, including the DP which serves to anchor all lesser punishments.

      The point is not that simply that there can be a legitimate disagreement among experts on these issues, it is that the popes (and other prelates) have made virtually no effort whatsoever to address such points of view. This renders their expressed "prudential" considerations of no merit beyond that of "personal opinions of respected persons expressed without basis". Prudential determinations by prelates do not require our religious (or higher) assent, they require our respectful attention and an honest and real openness to consider their arguments. We are supposed to take their opinions into account but "account" here means considering their ARGUMENTS and reflecting on them, giving them real consideration. If they don't provide arguments, then how can we take them into account?

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    6. Dear Anonymous
      I think I agree with everything you say. Would you mind pointing out the specific statement that you take objection to ?

      Just as a side note
      I think Augustine's argument is thoughtful but doesn't have as much force because it seems to presuppose a general tendency to abuse in the family.
      I think it's more effective to argue from the human tendency towards tribalism or clanishness. Celebrating sibling marriage publically would definitely induce many families to marry within their own bloodline out of disdain for outsiders or similar lines. Aquinas mentions this as one of his points against incest that it would risk humans associating and collaborating with each other which is crucial for a functional society.

      David
      China isn't the only Eastern Society. The east is much more then the average caricatures.
      Obviously it would be much better if the communist party of China didn't have the power of execution.

      A country like Phillipines however which has strongly pro life laws, laws that preserve marriage between man and women, a vibrant and practicing catholic community could be said to inflict the death penalty worthily.

      In general most of the countries in the East still retain traditional values like no sex before marriage, marriage as a procreative bond, importance of mother and father.It is quite visible in Countries Countries like Japan, India.

      Moreover the point was not that Western society has fallen past or become less then other societies which would obviously be fallacious.

      The point is that Western society has gradually ceased to beleive in its own grounding in something that transcends it, divine justice which it once upheld. The comparison was with Western society and what it used to be not the west and the east.

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    7. Would you mind pointing out the specific statement that you take objection to ?

      Norm, I was the "anonymous", accidentally. It was this:

      There are lots of issues that our a matter of prudential judgement yet demand our assent.

      I don't think it is happy phrasing to suggest that they "demand our assent", at least not in the context of a discussion of Church teachings where there are 3 categories of doctrinal teaching that do require our assent, and prudential determinations don't fall into any of those 3.

      but doesn't have as much force because it seems to presuppose a general tendency to abuse in the family.

      I think Augustine's point is that due to human sinfulness and weakness, within any family there will be MOMENTS of temptation toward incest. (30 years ago in the West, liberals claimed 1 in 4 families had sexual abuse occur. It might not have been quite at that level back then (though there is reason to worry it was), but it probably gets worse as our society degenerates in sexual deformities.) If you DON'T have a general across-the-board rule against in-family sexual expression, and allow sibling marriage, then those instances where temptation is strong will lack one of the strongest buttresses we have against giving in to the temptation. Take away that defense, and you will have much more sibling sex than we already have.

      I think it's more effective to argue from the human tendency towards tribalism or clanishness. Celebrating sibling marriage publically would definitely induce many families to marry within their own bloodline out of disdain for outsiders or similar lines.

      I grant you that Aquinas hold this up, and I agree that wider social cohesion is a good reason to promote inter-family marriage. But it is a fairly thin reason to absolutely forbid intra-family marriage and to treat the latter as if it were a deformity, and not just something to be minimized for the most part. And, given the number of inter-family feuds (or just tension) caused by such inter-family marriages, it is debatable just how effective the rule is. The rule God gave to the Hebrews was that they were required to marry within the tribe. And plenty of societies allow first cousins to marry, without apparent grave harm: 26 states in the US, for example (not, by the way, West Virginia).

      I know this is just one example, so we should not belabor the point. I agree that the Church's rule on consanguinity that precludes marriage is indeed a rule from prudence rather than from it being intrinsically evil, and many societies place the degree of relation differently from where the Church places it.

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    8. The point is that Western society has gradually ceased to beleive in its own grounding in something that transcends it, divine justice which it once upheld.

      This is true to a degree, and also NOT true, do a (different) degree. It would always (by the nature of the case) be a judgment call as to HOW FAR it has become true. Some practices, customs, and rules still remain true to Christian bases, while others have been deformed. (For example, in spite of the fact that marriage law has been degraded, it is still true that at the moment people get married, they still THINK it should be for life, and they WANT it to be for life. Nobody (yet) specifically sets out a marriage contract for an explicit time-limited period, e.g. "for 2 years". Marriage practice retains a core Christian value.

      And to the extent that any society has LOST its basic Christian orientation, it cannot but be a matter of prudential judgment whether the best redress for that lack is to re-frame the laws to simply stop expecting a Christian perspective, or to push directly for recovering due Christian perspective, (the latter, especially, when the Christian perspective is essentially how to understand natural law more fully.) If our society is (at the moment) too dull to appreciate the rights and wrongs of the DP sufficiently, should we attempt to recover that sense precisely by making the right arguments better known and the right actions implemented well? It cannot be anything but an untested experiment as to whether we will better recover the most proper sense of when to use the DP by demanding its abolition until we have a less degenerate society, if such abolition will impede a proper sense of justice all round. And it is troublesome for people to argue we must give it up because we are "too degenerate to use it right now" when the very same people argue that we have "better realized" human dignity so we don't need it. Which is it?

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    9. Dear Tony

      You make very valid points with regards to whether allowing for the death penalty may allow us to recover that proper sense especially with good arguments for it.

      As I said before, the thoughts that I put out were just some contemplations. My sensibilities still lie more with allowing for the death penalty then doing away with it all together.

      Although sometimes when you see liberal justices put forth judgments, it does make one apprehensive about giving them such power.

      I also think you make valid points about prisons. I think to a large extent though it would be difficult for prisons to avoid being the way they are now. There will always be a certain degree of stress or duress on prison guards and prison workers such that there will always be a high probability of lapses. We can obviously do something to reduce that probability but just given the conditions of the prison it becomes inevitable that there be a high probability.

      As a side note
      This is actually one of the reasons why I think that punishments that involve significant health hazards shouldn't be allowed, like punishments that involve the rectum that were employed by the CIA.

      In a hospital, there are very strict hygiene procedures for dealing and disposing with equipment that are involved in such activity like for example a colonoscopy.

      In a prison, these disposal procedures are very unlikely to be followed even if mandated because of the general atmosphere of a prison and will lead to health hazards for not only prisoners but more importantly the prison workers.

      As it is the hygienic conditions of prisons are already below the standards where they should be, hence those kinds of punishments which pose health hazards should be prohibited.

      This is also why in general we opt for bloodless procedures in employing the death penalty like lethal injections.

      Something I have been researching lately so I thought I'd share it

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    10. Sibling marriage will be legalized if 'liberals' keep being in charge.

      It's contained in their premises and it's not the 'slippery slope' fallacy.

      And people opposing it will be marginalized.

      We know what those weirdos are capable of.

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    11. The whole 'western society' (vs. 'eastern society'??) thing seems like a silly red herring. Nothing whatsoever to do with any real relevant issue here. However, if you do want to argue that 'we' are particularly corrupt, then it would seem to follow that 'we' are also particularly poorly placed to be proclaiming our own superior state of enlightenment over previous ages/societies regarding the nature and implications of the 'inviolable dignity of the human person.'

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    12. David no one over here in this thread seems to be making arguments based on the inviolable dignity of the human being. We agree that a person can lose his dignity when committing a grave crime and can therefore justly be deprived of his life.

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    13. Norm, I guess maybe I've misunderstood some the arguments that have been made here? At any rate, I do not agree with your "we agree" statement here, which seems to me obviously false. DP is not justified b/c of anything so nebulous as a 'loss of dignity' on the part of the criminal, it is justified b/c it is a just punishment for certain crimes.

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    14. David by loss of dignity, I meant loss of "acquired dignity" drawing on the distinction proposed by Steven Long between Substantive and Acquired Dignity.
      The “substantive dignity” is that follows simply upon having a certain nature and the “acquired dignity” of someone who has obeyed the divine law.
      It was mentioned by Prof in his post on MacIntyre.

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    15. Sure, but 'loss of acquired dignity' (i.e., disobedience to the divine law) as such is obviously insufficient justification for the death penalty as such, right?

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    16. David
      Right, There will have to be a corresponding grave crime deserving of the death penalty as well.

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    17. Uncommon ar 8.25AM

      Could you explicate to us what exactly is wrong IN PRINCIPLE with sibling marrage please? Try your best to be focussed, and if it is within your powers, resist your tendency towards triteness, sarcasm and insult, which impresses no-one

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    18. @Anonymous:

      What is wrong is that secularist governments don't allow siblings to marry, being the champions of 'freedom' and 'love' that they are.

      But with the perverts in charge, it's meant to happen.

      Human sacrifice (abortion) has been made legal again (a very indietrist move tbh), so intra-familiar marriage and marriage with animals and objects should be a woke 'priority'.

      And let Muslims have their harems and re-enact the ancient practice of Chinese concubinage, please. 'Love is love' and no one should be left behind. No one. Monogamy is ancient, ridiculous oppression.

      I can't wait to marry grandpa, so please 'wokes', hurry up.

      Wait. I can't wait to marry grandma either. It's going to be a fun wedding.

      And Fido is starting to sound tempting too.

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    19. @Anonymous:

      If you don't have an objective, unchanging, eternal standard of 'goodness', then nothing is 'wrong', even in principle.

      And that includes Gulags, Nazi crematorium furnaces, Aztec gory human sacrifices, letting people die of starvation, father's impregnating their daughters, slavery, homosexuals being hanged, etc...

      In fact, all of the above are proofs that Darwinian evolution is right, so atheists should celebrate that their pet theory is confirmed. Survival of the fittest. The strongest win. The weakest lose. Or as Dawkins preaches, we live in a Universe of total moral 'indifference'.

      'Wrong' is not a word atheists should use. Like teleology it's meaningless gibberish, an internal feeling that has no correspondence with anything in extra-mental reality.
      And yet they can't stop crying about 'objective' injustices and some made-up, illusory 'Human Rights'.

      What a joke.

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    20. @DNW:

      'The historically reported practice of Australian males using the living bodies of female infants and toddlers as flesh receptacles for their sexual urges, even going so far as to open the girls' orifices further by cutting, is an objectively evil moral practice.'

      Well, satisfying your sexual urges can make you happier and then contribute to your survival, since depressed/ angry people tend to live less. And toddlers don't have any value for the materialist, since they are not self-conscious, so they are no different to Descartes brutes. Just worthless, tiny meat-machines.

      Also, cutting flesh can help to increase dexterity, and greater dexterity with weapons can be useful in Nature.

      'Nature does nothing in vain' according to the darwinian. Any behavior can have some hidden meaning and any physical trait can become an 'spandrel', a reservoir for future evolution. Nature is magical, and yet the naturalist can't appreciate its grandeur.

      The consequent darwinian should celebrate that their Master was right. But for some unknown reason, they tend not to like what darwinism transpires.

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    21. "explicate to us what exactly is wrong IN PRINCIPLE with sibling marrage please? Try your best to be focussed ..."

      So you want focus and a principle?

      Ok. Marriage is a publicly recognized legal contract made between persons competent to form such a contractual union.

      As such it bestows on the contracting parties certain additional and socially endorsed rights and responsibilities.

      The marriage you propose is the formation of such a contractual union by parties legally incapable of forming this contract with one another.

      That is the principle.

      It is worth bearing in mind too, that agreements which are not purely private and which look to the law for their protection and enforcement, per se imply the participation and interests of the larger political association or community.

      Therefore, at a higher level of analysis, another principle invoking rational community interest, affinity of aims, reciprocity, and the associated spillover effects of such allowances or validation on the lives and interests of others may be invoked.

      But these are probably not the kinds of answers you were wishing to hear.

      What you were probably hoping for in your inchoate way, was to to encounter someone who would be unable to tell you why you should not have sex with your sister or brother, set up housekeeping, and gain for this arrangement the status of lawful marriage ... and thus getting your perversion the stamp of social approval and partticipation.

      Is that what you were actually after?

      If so, refer to the second principle I alluded to.

      [An aside: This guy must be related to Stardusty. They share the same difficulty in formulating questions which don't have obvious answers; but which, because of their own limitations, seem to them like game winners.]

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    22. @DNW:

      The marriage you propose is the formation of such a contractual union by parties legally incapable of forming this contract with one another.

      But if we follow liberal premises, then any person that has reached adulthood can freely choose who he/she wants to marry. And the State should not mind anyone's business. Even if there's consanguinity involved.

      That's why I don't understand why liberals are not pushing for what they preach. There should not be limits to any kind of union. And even the idea that children are off-limits can be subjected to revision/ social engineering.

      There are two horns of the dilemma:

      1) If they don't follow their premises, that shows that they are hypocrites and that they don't believe in what they preach ('sexual and affective freedom for all').

      2) If they follow them, then the theist will be vindicated. The 'slippery slope' is not a fallacy after all. The theist is not a 'hysterical' individual, but he knows that people and societies need boundaries.

      An aside: This guy must be related to Stardusty.

      They're probably siblings and want to marry. Which is fine.

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    23. " DNW:

      'The historically reported practice of Australian males using the living bodies of female infants and toddlers as flesh receptacles for their sexual urges, even going so far as to open the girls' orifices further by cutting, is an objectively
      evil moral practice.'

      Well, satisfying your sexual urges can make you happier and then contribute to your survival, since depressed/ angry people tend to live less. And toddlers don't have any value for the materialist, since they are not self-conscious, so they are no different to Descartes brutes. Just worthless"


      Stardusty will no doubt appreciate your "help". But his problems cannot be solved by any facetious utilitarian bone you might toss at him, no matter how much the sexually perverse outback version of Jonathan Swift's, "A Modest Proposal" might strike him as an "objective" ambiguous custom or practice from a human values standpoint. Except .... that according to his own methodology, there is no such statement regarding an "objective lack" of objectivity which can be self-consistently developed employing his ideological strictures. So ... nothing. He find the screams of the raped and bleeding infants affecting, the grinning Australian goes about his business, and the most Stardusty can say about the scene evaluatively, is that his subjective impression is not positive.

      His woeful failure to have previously grasped the basics of the language of ethics as to what morals are, and how these customary practices can in actuality be objectively evaluated against factically existing and inherent universal human standards of good and evil, reflects on his own conceptual shortcomings.

      What he has been persistently doing is to insist that there is no such thing as an intersubjectively accessible reality; and then having ruled it out of court and missed all the prosaic examples staring him in the face, demanded that an objective statement be produced which is reconcilable with his stipulation that there is no objective state of affairs.

      But his lack of education aside, customs do objectively exist, and they can be assessed against more general transcultural practices for their particular value in generally buttressing the lives and survival of those in the population, or for their neutrality or for their tendency be it immediate or prospective, toward an ultimate nihilism.

      This is easy stuff, the equivalent of the tepid New Natural Law: not even controversial.

      But ol' Stardusty has decided prior to all discussion that life is no better than not life, that there is no such thing as a distinct category of humanity, and that life and death, existence and non existence have equal or similarly no, intrinsic human valances.

      But what of biology, our dear naturalist?

      Yeah, one wonders how the stupid son of a bhtch can even believe in the existence of illness, or in any other biological process as regulatory or homeostatic.

      He of course waves [if consistent] the issue away with a petuant retort that pain is the subjective adjudicator of the state of affairs. If taken seriously, it means that drugging Stardusty with opiates, while his body rots from infection, is a medical practice indistinguishable in preference from the administration of antibiotics; intrinsically at least.

      That is why law and medicine collapse under the influence of the woke nihilists.

      Consistent with this, if Stardusty were administered a dose of cyanide rather than cough syrup, when he asked for assistance, it would all be the same in terms of moral impact so far as anyone not himself was concerned.

      Does he really believe this? Possibly. Time and a self administered hangman's knot may one day tell the tale.

      Unfortunately it still won't prove him correct. On his own theory there is no right or wrong solution to the question; even if he were to wake up in Hell.

      At least he would not expect us to mourn for him in his fate. No objective reason on his own take, why anyone should.

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    24. DNW,
      "the most Stardusty can say about the scene evaluatively, is that his subjective impression is not positive."
      No, I can say more about that. Not only is my subjective impression not positive, my subjective impression is also strongly negative. So much so that I support laws in our nation against such things and if I were the juror in such a case I would be subjectively appalled and vote to convict if the evidence objectively supported the charge.

      "how these customary practices"
      Customary practices are subjectively good to those who agree with the custom, and subjectively bad to those who do not agree with the custom.

      " can in actuality be objectively evaluated against factically existing and inherent universal human standards of good and evil,"
      You just don't get that an objective standard is subjective, do you?

      Ok, this really is not so hard...at base an objective standard of customary behaviors is subjective, because the customs are subjective. Understand yet?

      It is like the rules of a card game. The rules are subjectively good, because the people who play think the rules are at least good enough to be worth their time to play by.

      Determining if a particular play conforms to those subjectively determined rules is an objective process. Get it yet?

      An objective standard is not objectively good or objectively bad, just a way to objectively determine if one is or is not conforming to a particular set of subjectively asserted rules.

      "inherent universal human standards of good and evil".
      Good and evil that all humans agree to? Nope, no such thing, but even if there were such a thing they still would not be objective standards of good and evil, just universally believed standards of good and evil.

      You do realize that just because all human beings believe that P, that does not make P objectively true, don't you?

      "customs do objectively exist"
      Yes, but that does not make them objectively good or objectively bad, just objectively real beliefs.

      "Stardusty has decided prior to all discussion that life is no better than not life,"
      I have decided my life is better than my not life for me.

      "one wonders how the stupid son of a bhtch can even believe in the existence of illness,"
      It is a common custom to not speak poorly of somebody's mother.





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    25. @DNW:

      What he has been persistently doing is to insist that there is no such thing as an intersubjectively accessible reality;

      Little ol' Kooky can't prove that he is not hallucinating and having a conversation with himself, all this thread being another psychotic episode born out of his hallucinated brain.

      But little ol' Kooky ain't precisely bright.

      Little ol' Kooky and his materialist pals (like WCB) don't understand that materialism is anti-realism.

      They are nothing but low IQ village atheists.

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    26. @Stardusty:

      You do realize that just because all human beings believe that P, that does not make P objectively true, don't you?

      Beware, DNW! An OBJECTIVE statement being hurled at you!

      Even though according to Kooky and his sect, they don't exist!

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    27. @Stardusty:

      and if I were the juror in such a case I would be subjectively appalled and vote to convict if the evidence objectively supported the charge.

      So Stardusty would condemn, with his inexistent free-will, a poor Australian that didn't have any choice in the matter, because he was just at the mercy of his neurochemistry. Justice is nothing but the arbitrary whims of random packages of neurons.

      That shows again the bottomless stupidity of materialism. And how dangerous it is.

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    28. UcD, observes with regard to the implications of progressive ideology,

      " ... even the idea that children are off-limits can be subjected to revision/ social engineering."

      Progressives have actually been arguing for, or suggesting the normalization of what they euphemistically call "intergenerational sex", for years.

      One cannot trust that the condemnation some of them sometimes express is any more sincere or principled or actually felt than their occasional mouthings in favor of free speech or self-government.

      Not all go so far or speak so openly as the 1960s Gernan radical leftists, or the NAMBLA freaks one used to see on old talk-current affairs shows; but their foundational outlook on reality leaves one unsuprised when they admit more than is politically acceptable.

      Now, would adopting the doctrines of, nominalism, moral nihilism, cultural relativism and hedonic "ethics" forcibly compel the neutral proto-progressive to emotionally embrace and affirm the suite of sexual perversities we see manifest in our polities today? Maybe not.

      But it is clear that someone already favorably disposed toward those outcomes would find the the default worldview left in the wake of nominalism, nihilism, and utilitarian relativism, psychologically compelling and opportune.

      Metaphorically speaking then, they are already "The Devil's Own", and no conversion resulting from a purely philosophical encounter with scientism or moral nihilism is involved. [Though it might well serve as a likely, or "just so" story.]

      In fact, on the basis of their own Sethist 'from the inside out, rather than from the outside in" version of how humans perceive reality, such a state of affairs is more or less implied as obtaining .... especially as with regard to themselves.

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    29. @UncommonDescent,

      "If you don't have an objective, unchanging, eternal standard of 'goodness', then nothing is 'wrong', even in principle."

      Incorrect.

      1. We can compare the height of two people and determine which is the tallest without having an objective standard like feet and inches. In the same way, we can compare the 'wrongness' of two actions and determine which is the most wrong without having an objective standard of wrongness.

      2. Even if God exists, you have no objective standard as God's moral standards can only be determined by the subjective interpretation of fallible human beings.

      3. Even if you could determine what God's objective moral standards are, there is still no objective reason why anyone should care.

      Delete
  7. Man, you have incredible patience, and a persistent comittment and productive output equal to it.

    To be so exhaustive without it being exhausting, given the current state of affairs in the Roman Catholic Church, is something I can hardly process. One, I would think, be tempted to wash one's hands of the affair and turn one's attention elsewhere.

    But then , " ... to wash one's hands of ..."?

    Yet still, to try and reconcile 1, "Thou art Peter" with the idea of - is it a doctrine? - 2, the divine inspiration of the election of the pontif, and 3, the doctrine of the indefectibility of the Church is to build a sandwich of two pieces of wholesome enough bread, but one with a suspect center which gives every appearance of having gone bad. [I'm trying not to employ a metaphor here which was popular with a recent generation of ex servicemen.]

    Pope Frankie clearly seems on the road to universalism.

    Once arriving there he will effectively have denied,
    " ... for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
    And,
    "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me..."

    Having thus made Christ more or less irrelevant to Catholicism, it would hardly be beyond the realm of concievability that he might dare to declare that:
    "I, His Prominence, The One and Only Pope Frankie The Compassionate, Never to Judge except Americans, Never Gluttonous and Not Fat at All, duly elected through the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit and through the Divinely Ordained Intercessions of the St. Gallen Mafia, do hereby and through that authority granted to me, abrogate and obrogate (whatever these pontifical words I am using mean), abolish, wave my finger at, and say 'No, no no!' to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity in general, and particularly to belief in the Third Person of the Trinity. I pronounce this infallibly, right here and now, from my special chair, wearing my special hat and holding my special stuff, and affirm it to be my authentic pronouncement, so help me, Me."

    Such seems to be the operational logic of the Vatican; from out here in the field seats, anyway

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @DNW

      What you're sketching out in the penultimate paragraph would, plausibly, falsify Catholicism.

      However, relative integrity of the popes in the past has never really been sufficient to exclude the possibility of what you're describing.

      The only thing adequately grounding Catholic belief here are (what we take to be, at least) the promises of Christ, Whom one can, the Catholic submits, prefer over the apparent odds.

      As regards gastronomy, worry not, as Catholics (as such, at least) are not commited to the "suspect centre" of 2: while the cardinals can be said to receive the graces - of state and circumstance - facilitating the election of a pontiff after the Lord's own heart (just like electors in other contexts, mutatis mutandis), that they actually do this is by no means guaranteed.

      That said, I do think there's some merit to the idea that Providence not infrequently allows us to get the rulers we deserve (again, in the Church and elsewhere).

      Delete
    2. WCB

      Papal infallibilty was only officially adopted in 1864. It has only been invoked twice. Popes have very definitely been extremely leery of using it. Because if done carelessly, and being used for a foolish reason as you pose, rolling it back would need another ex cathedra ruling. That would gut ex cathedra, and call all of Catholic official methods of reaching true dogma questionable.

      It is like the Gilbert and Sullivan's most powerful official in China whose word is law with the provisio that he never use this power.

      WCB

      Delete
    3. Papal infallibilty was only officially adopted in 1864.

      Correction: it was formally defined as an explicit dogma, to be held without reservation, and announced by Vatican I in 1870, not 1864. But it was held and taught before that, as the Ecumenical Council clearly said, throughout the Church.

      It has only been invoked twice.

      Correction: it has been invoked under an ex cathedra pronouncement at least twice, as virtually all Catholic sources agree. Many Catholic sources indicate that it was used several other times, (with lesser fanfare) some suggesting more than 12. Several canon lawyers have publicly argued that Pope JPII used it in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.

      Because if done carelessly, and being used for a foolish reason as you pose, rolling it back would need another ex cathedra ruling.

      First, DNW was offering hyperbole, not to be taken seriously (except being serious in how ridiculous that declaration would be). Secondly, "rolling it back" is an oxymoronic juxtaposition, it makes no sense suppose an ex cathedra pronouncement and then suggest a roll-back of it. In fact, Catholic principles WOULD allow a pope to announce, in an ex cathedra statement, some silly and banal statement that is true, something that never needed to be defended by the pope: such would not defeat the concept of infallibility, because such statement would be true. It would need no roll-back, though the pope might eventually need to be wheeled off to the looney bin.

      Delete
    4. @DNW

      A ex cathedra statement repudiating the existence of the Holy Spirit would be a type of self-amendment paradox, because the power of ex cathedra statements comes from the Holy Spirit.

      Delete
  8. No one can turn out a long scholarly but. readable blog post as fast as Prof. Feser.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Excellent job. An overarching issue is perhaps beyond scholarly debate, however, which is that Fastiggi has an irrational, hyperpapalist view of Francis, which leads to an absolutist and postivistic view of papal authority. That is, it is Francis' will that makes something to be true, part of revelation, part of the deposit of faith; and because Francis is latest in line temporally, he can pronounce whatever he wants. This helps to explain why Fastiggi habitually ignores various points, because he must maintain his viewpoint no matter what. He thus also does the same with various other problematic positions of Francis and co., such as communion for the divorced and remarried. He keeps on repeating the same points and never addresses the problems of his position. He will even pretend as though he is not aware of magisterial material that opposes his claims. We are thus beyond rational discourse to a certain extent.

    ReplyDelete
  10. OP,
    "contradict scripture and two thousand years of magisterial teaching."
    Yes, of course, what is supposed to be the problem with contradicting past interpretations of scripture and contradicting past teaching?

    Did you suppose a purpose of the Pope is to just repeat all the errors of the past?

    And it isn't just Francis, past Popes have apologized for a great many mistakes made by the RCC.

    Dr. Feser, given your positions, the fact that you live in the USA, and the words of Francis, have you considered the possibility that his recent comments may be directed toward you as an individual?

    Does it concern you at all, Dr. Feser, that Francis quite possibly might of had you in mind specifically as he pointed toward the USA explicitly and said things like
    "there is a very strong reactionary attitude"
    "there, one can lose the true tradition and turn to ideologies for support"
    "ideology replaces faith,"
    "membership in a sector of the church replaces membership in the church"
    "I would like to remind those people that indietrismo (being backward-looking) is useless"
    "we need to understand that there is an appropriate evolution in the understanding of matters of faith and morals"
    "some pontiffs before me tolerated it, but things are different today"
    "You have been to the United States and you say you have felt a climate of closure. Yes,"
    "Those American groups you talk about, so closed, are isolating themselves"
    "Instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies."
    "When you abandon doctrine in life to replace it with an ideology, you have lost, you have lost as in war."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Stardusty:

      "We need to understand that there is an appropriate evolution in the understanding of matters of faith and morals."

      And so is there an appropriate evolution in philosophical understanding.

      Being a materialist is being a practitioner of indietrismo (being backwards-looking).

      Delete
  11. So the death penalty should be reserved for " heinous crimes?"
    South Carolina wants to punish women who abort with 30 years in prison or the death penalty. Does abortion warrant the DP?
    Logically, it should. It's child murder, right? What's more heinous than that?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anon,
      If Christians deeply and firmly believe that souls of the innocent go to eternal paradise, then Christians would logically favor as many abortions as possible.

      After all, there are passages in the NT that indicate most people will not be saved, will not go to heaven, will not go to eternal paradise.

      So, for every live birth, chances are that individual will grow up to be an unrepentant sinner, and will be part of the majority that are not saved.

      However, when a baby dies his or her soul goes directly to heaven, right? I mean, a baby is totally innocent, right? What monstrous sort of god would send a baby soul to hell?

      Every abortion saves a soul.

      Delete
    2. @Stardusty:

      If Darwinian materialists deeply and firmly believe that Darwinian materialism is true (and they could not do otherwise, because they are 'determined' to do so), then Darwinian materialists would logically not favor any abortion, since Darwin prophesized that every species fights to maximize its reproductive output.

      And they should favor rape and forced artificial inseminations, since they increase the chances of spreading your genes.

      What monstruos sort of Darwinist would oppose his Master's teachings?

      Every abortion and every suppressed act of rape ring another death knell to Darwinian materialism.

      It takes time to get rid of superstitions, but it's bound to happen.

      Delete
    3. Anonymus, please.

      Telling a person that he/she/*zir is 'fat' is obviously a far more heinous crime than an anti-Darwinian act of dismemberment in the womb.

      Delete
  12. "it is easy to show that the revision to the Catechism, no less than John Paul II’s statements on capital punishment, does reflect merely prudential considerations."

    No, the considerations given in the second paragraph of the catechism revision and repeated in no. 2 of Cardinal Ladaria's letter are not premisses having as logical consequence the new teaching, but occasions having as chronological consequence the acceptance of that teaching. That is the only way to interpret the new teaching consistently with the relevant portions of the speech in which Pope Francis: foreshadowed the catechism revision; provided the quotation which was to become the heart of that revision; taught that "the death penalty is an inhumane measure that, regardless of how it is carried out, abases human dignity" and "is per se contrary to the Gospel"; and strongly criticised earlier generations, including previous Popes, for failing to take occasion to accept the supposed inadmissibility of the death penalty. (Francis's protestation of "not in any way contradicting past teaching" only reminds us that sometimes people don't see that they hold mutually contradictory beliefs.)

    Reginaldvs Cantvar

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Francis's protestation of "not in any way contradicting past teaching" only reminds us that sometimes people don't see that they hold mutually contradictory beliefs.

      ? If past popes said capital punishment is morally licit in principle, how is the new revision not contradicting past teaching?

      Delete
  13. «First, it is easy to show that the revision to the Catechism, no less than John Paul II’s statements on capital punishment, does reflect merely prudential considerations. For the revised text appeals not only to human dignity, but also to the assumption that “more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.” Similarly, in his letter to the bishops explaining the change to the Catechism, Cardinal Ladaria says that part of the reason for the change has to do with “the development of more efficacious detention systems that guarantee the due protection of citizens,” with worries about “the defective selectivity of the criminal justice system and… the possibility of judicial error,” with the judgment that “modern society possesses more efficient detention systems, [so that] the death penalty becomes unnecessary as protection for the life of innocent people,” and so on. »

    The problem is that the Catechism does contain an evolution which is not prudential at all:

    «The death penalty

    2267. Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.»
    This part is indicating the past.

    «Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.»
    Then what changed?
    1. Increasing awareness of the dignity of the person;
    2. new understading of the penal system;
    3. more effective systems of detetion;
    Point 3. is actually false. Detention has remained basically cells and door cells.
    But the Catechism then concludes:

    «Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”,[1] and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.»
    The Church teaches that the death penalty is inadmissible in light of the Gospel because: it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person.
    We see the actuall justification has nothing to do with systems of detention. The justification is the Gospel, who supposedly protects the dignity of the criminal.

    Francis himself has said it is a violation of the Fifth Commandment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7n3tbprV-4 There were other occasions when he said this.

    This is also part of the Catechism, whose function is to teach doctrine and morals, and a sure norm for teaching the faith - see Fidei Depositum:
    «The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of Catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion and a sure norm for teaching the faith. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the kingdom! »

    The prayer for the abolition of the death penalty worldwide was also a prayer intention, I think for September 2022.

    So from the words of Francis himself, the place where it was inserted, and the literal element of the Catechism, it seems forced to say it is a mere prudential statement.
    To say that something is inadmissible, it should be abolished worldwide and in no circumstance should be used is not prudential at all.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "We see the actual justification has nothing to do with systems of detention. The justification is the Gospel, which supposedly protects the dignity of the criminal."

      That seems a reasonable assessment. But then it's also important to note that if that's the real point, then it's perfectly obvious that as it stands the presentation of this novel doctrine is muddled and superficial. And hence the necessity for a certain amount of interpretive special pleading.

      Delete
    2. This is also part of the Catechism, whose function is to teach doctrine and morals, and a sure norm for teaching the faith

      So, Pope JPII, when he issued the original 1992 version of the Catechism, and then the updated 1997 version, upheld the ancient teaching that DP is morally licit in principle...
      AND when Francis revised 2267, and taught that DP is never morally licit...
      They were both providing A SURE NORM?

      To quote Inigo, "I don't think that word means what you think it means."

      In fact, it is very reasonable to suppose that JPII made a judgment error when he inserted his own prudential opinion into the Catechism in the first place, precisely because a Catechism is not where you try to work out the precise wording of a matter still undergoing major current development. You do that elsewhere. In a Catechism you limit yourself to the stuff that is certain and well-established. Whatever else it was, JPII's formulation was NOT well-established, because he changed it 3 times in 5 years.

      Francis - even if he thought he had a good line on correcting defects in what JPII had said - most likely should have had the humility to test his perspective out in other venues and sought the input of ALL of the people with relevant expertise: even when Pope Pius IX wanted to announce the Immaculate Conception, he sought out the input of the world's bishops and theologians, and directed extensive study within the Vatican of the opinions of the Doctors.

      Point 3. is actually false. Detention has remained basically cells and door cells.

      If point 3 is actually false, what is the possibility that point 1 and 2 are false? Presumably, non-0. But if the possibility they are false is non-0, then Francis's whole thesis is possibly false. I submit to you that:

      1. Increasing awareness of the dignity of the person;
      2. new understading of the penal system;
      3. more effective systems of detetion;

      Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”


      leaves room, in the presentation, for the following logical possibilities:
      (a) The "new awareness" is new to some, but it was present all along in others in the Church, others who (all along) were aware of human dignity and still understood the DP as morally licit;
      (b) the "new awareness" is actually mistaken, just as people's "new awareness" of a woman's right to abort her baby is mistaken;
      (c) there is an new awareness of a different aspect of human dignity that was not recognized before, and this new aspect not before clearly seen DOES properly restrict DP more than previously grasped, but DOES NOT properly eliminate it altogether as morally illicit absolutely.

      Because the pope neither states what this dignity really is, its foundation, its essence, or its limits, nor does he suggest or reference any other text that does so, nobody could possibly tell, FROM THIS COMMENT, whether any of (a), (b), or (c) captures the "new awareness". Without stating the specific content of the new awareness, we could not possibly see that it indeed alters our grasp of DP to mean it is always inadmissible, or has some other effect. Further, even if the conclusion happens to be true (in some sense), Francis's preliminary comments do not constitute an argument for the conclusion, the conclusion is simply an an assertion, posed as if 1-3 lead to it, but in fact they are merely vague aspirations of premises. And without actual content for the new awarenesses, we could not begin to assess how they lend to either a universal or a circumstantial "inadmissibility".

      Delete
    3. Ecrivez un livre de philosphie, Dr. McPike

      Delete
  14. "To say that something is inadmissible, it should be abolished worldwide and in no circumstance should be used is not prudential at all."

    Clearly that is not correct. Compare: the worldwide (Catholic) inadmissibility of first-cousin marriage is undisputed, yet it is also clearly prudential, such that dispensations are regularly granted to allow it (at least so have I read).

    ReplyDelete
  15. A good alternative would be to separate the brains of the convicted ones from their bodies and then to conserve said brains in some sort of a Futurama vat.*

    The prevailing materialist superstition says that we are our brains. Doing that would keep the person both alive and not alive at the same time, like Schrodinger's cat.

    That would be a death/non-death penalty, totally un-problematic, since quantum mechanics has invalidated the LNC.

    Maybe the Philosopher, a.k.a. Stardusty, could shed some light on this thorny issue.

    We submit ourselves to his breathtaking wisdom.

    (Do brains in vats hallucinate their vatty realities?)

    ReplyDelete
  16. I do not believe that the "prudential judgments" of SPJPII were either prudent, not reflected good judgement.

    I have been requesting that the Church research criminal justice systems since 1997, with no evidence that SPJPII researched them, prior to EV (1995) nor that the Church has done so through today. Had they done so, they would have found that our criminal justice systems are much more harmful than the priest sex scandal, over the past 80 years,

    With regard to dignity, it is clear that the absence of dignity, within the CCC references, only, the lack thereof, by the murder and the murderer, not the sanction for it.

     CCC 2261 and 2266 are the opposite of an execution causing a loss of dignity. It is the correction of the offender, not the "correction" of the sanction. Expiation is not the loss of dignity, but the return of it. 

    By reason, the only way humans can lose their dignity is by themselves, within themselves, by their free will and by sin. An unjust aggressor who rapes and murders children has thrown their dignity away, while also trying to take away the dignity of their victims, which they cannot do, thank God.

    No sanction can take away the dignity of the unjust aggressor, nor does it. Only they can do it to themselves, opposing God's will, with a sinful free will, as the Church confirms, within CCC 2261 and 2266, and as with:

    CCC 2259: "Scripture reveals the presence of anger and envy in man, consequences of original sin, from the beginning of human history. Man has become the enemy of his fellow man. God declares the wickedness of this fratricide: "What have you done? the voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. and now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand."

    A clear description of a murder, which causes the loss of dignity, for the murderer, by the murderer's own actions . . . as we all know, and as the Church must, as well.

    The loss of dignity is not by any sanction for that murder, as Pope Francis and the 2018 amended CCC 2267, wrongly declare, an error that must be obvious to the Church, pre the amended 1997 CCC, through today, and by reason.

    Clearly, the 2018 amended CCC 2267 misplaces the subject of dignity, as the Church, at one point, recognized and must know, now, Herself, within 2259, 2261 and 2266, as well as since Genesis and by reason.

    ReplyDelete
  17. OP,
    "If he is going to suggest that Innocent erred, then how can he consistently object to those who suggest that Francis has erred?"
    Makes sense, in principle, that is, the LNC.
    Innocent -> P
    Francis -> ~P
    As Lincoln noted, god cannot be both for and against the same thing at the same time. The observation of contradictory positions between supposedly infallible authorities rather destroys any logical claim to infallibility by virtue of holding the office.

    Yet, Dr. Feser, you go on to say...
    "the ordinary Magisterium of the Church has taught *infallibly* that capital punishment is not intrinsically wrong"

    How about we just agree that the Church has changed its mind again so now it can go back to being infallible?


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Stardusty:

      The observation of contradictory positions between supposedly infallible authorities rather destroys any logical claim to infallibility by virtue of holding the office.

      I see no problem. You agree that Darwin and materialism are both infallible positions, and yet a materialist Darwinian supporting abortion is a contradiction in terms.

      More abortions --- less genetic material for NS to act upon and less chances to evolve.

      Reproduction -> Darwin
      Abortion -> ~ Darwin

      How about we just agree that materialism is patently false?

      In an 'hallucinated' manner, of course.

      Delete
    2. Could we politely request that you actually address the arguments of your interlocutors instead of habitually going off on bizarre , irrelevant rants which rather draw into question the health of your state of mind. Your response to StsrDusty above at 8.13AM illustrates my point perfectly.

      Delete
    3. @Anonymous:

      Dude, we don't have free will. I write my posts because I am 'determined' to do so. Or so says your Stardusty hero.

      Maybe you could help your pal in trying to solve the inherent contradictions in his (yours?) self-refuting materialist worldview.

      Don't let your neurons become idle.

      Delete
    4. The post by Anonymous at 1.47PM above is of course addressed to UNCOMMON.

      Delete
    5. @Anonymus:

      Wow! With CAPS! I am humbled!

      What a pointless correction. Lol.

      Delete
    6. "UncommonDescent
      September 2, 2023 at 11:45 PM
      @Anonymous:

      Dude, we don't have free will. I write my posts because I am 'determined' to do so. Or so says your Stardusty hero.

      Maybe you could help your pal in trying to solve the inherent contradictions in his (yours?) self-refuting materialist worldview."


      It's fairly typical of comment spaces to find some number of of commenters who are willing to continually grant passes and dispensations to the trolls whose own predicate statements have impeached their ability to lay the claims which they do make.

      The agreeable, are for example, likely willing to be lectured on, say, the obligations of discipleship by an atheist who proclaims the Jesus myth idea. Or at least to engage the troll as if it is making a good faith argument, or has standing to bring the issue before the bar in the first place: a consequence of that inclusion mentality, no doubt.

      They will also, for example, allow what amount to subjective idealist cranks, or moral nihilists, to lecture them on human moral anthropology categorical imperatives, and principles of public virtue.

      You see it in blatant cases where modern day stalinists insist on framing a discussion in terms of "best" effecting a "public policy" initiative which clearly is intended to beg the question as to whether that policy is even compatible with the principles of a free people.

      I think it has become so accepted among the more "agreeable" (personality trait reference) portions of the political population that truth is subjective, or even dangerous, that to speak of first principles, or even to hold someone to their own announced principles is seen as offensive and rude.

      The herd-like vulnerability, if not outright willingness of "agreeable" personalities to be manipulated and subverted by nihilistic psychopaths is well known.

      Haidt has touched on this by implication I believe; and of course Jordan Peterson has laid it out explicitly quite recently.

      'Placing Canada on the psychiatric couch." See 3:07 esp.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6uNIfIe0wgE

      Delete
    7. DNW,
      "lectured on, say, the obligations of discipleship by an atheist who proclaims the Jesus myth idea."
      I read the rule book so I know when you guys are contradicting yourselves. Pretty simple. May the lectures begin.

      "has standing to bring the issue before the bar in the first place:"
      What, you figure somebody needs membership to point out your errors? I am a card carrying human being, which is standing enough.

      "lecture them on human moral anthropology categorical imperatives, and principles of public virtue."
      Moral categorical imperatives and principles of public virtue are indeed, in fact, subjective. If you can write a moral sentence expressing an objective moral good, or evil, then by all means, do enlighten us by doing so.

      I have never read such a sentence, so that would be a unique and interesting event in my life. Many discuss the principle of objective morality as an unspecific generality, but nobody can seem to name any particular thing that is objectively morally good, or evil. Perhaps you can be the first. Care to give it a go?

      "is seen as offensive and rude."
      Indeed, I have detected no such inhibition in you.

      Perhaps you can tell me how executing your imprisoned enemy, not in immanent self defense, is a form of loving your enemy as you love yourself?

      Maybe you can explain, likely in an offensive and rude manner, how executing a prisoner exemplifies:

      “If anyone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well”.

      “You have heard it said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person”


      Delete
    8. DNW,
      "lectured on, say, the obligations of discipleship by an atheist who proclaims the Jesus myth idea."

      I read the rule book so I know when you guys are contradicting yourselves. Pretty simple. May the lectures begin.

      You better hold off on that, unless you just get off on hearing yourself rant.

      The canonical New Testament is not a rule book.

      Comprehensively, it is the attestation of the disciples to a metaphysical claim they were preaching. For example,
      "Since many have attempted to compile an account concerning the events that have been fulfilled among us, just as those who were eyewitnesses and servants of the word from the beginning passed on ..."

      If you had given the introduction to the Gospels the attention which you falsely claimed to have given the rules, you would have known that. As it is you misquoted the rules too, as I have elsewhere noted.

      The authority of Jesus as more than just some fictional character or first century inhabitant of Palestine who went about preaching, hinges on the truth of that earlier metaphysical claim. Christians believe that it is true. Therefore, the prescriptive moral statements found therein bear under that assumption, universal weight.

      With you it's just more flatus vocis emissions, as I have observed previously.

      Absent the conditioning metaphysical assumption, one might as well listen to Andrew Jackson or Nietzche, as to Jesus; or to any of that sad cast of clowns lispingly referred to by simpering secular humanist meat sacks as the "great religious figures"

      " If you can write a moral sentence expressing an objective moral good, or evil, then by all means, do enlighten us by doing so."

      Sure. Assuming, and only for the sake of argument, that you actually know what "morals" are anthropologically and etymologically, I'll moot a very prosaic, and seemingly uncontroversial proposition; one which you can deny if you wish.

      The only additional premise, or better, assumption, is that the aboriginal people in question, have the full complement of defining attributes which we assign to, (and thus they qualify as) humans; since, obviously "moral" good and evil function, as you previously stipulated, terms in a moral context; and mores, are obviously not inter-specific.

      'The historically reported practice of Australian males using the living bodies of female infants and toddlers as flesh receptacles for their sexual urges, even going so far as to open the girls' orifices further by cutting, is an objectively evil moral practice.'

      The rape of boys is also reported in the literature as an accepted cultural practice among certain Austronesian and Papuan groups, and would also constitute an objective moral evil. But that would be an additional moral proposition; the objective validity of which, you might also wish to dispute.

      "'is seen as offensive and rude.'
      Indeed, I have detected no such inhibition in you."


      For once, you have detected accurately.

      Delete
    9. @Stardusty:

      Perhaps you can tell me how executing your imprisoned enemy, not in immanent self defense, is a form of loving your enemy as you love yourself?

      It's environmentally friendly, since housing prisoners takes a lot of resources. You progressives should be against excessive contamination. Your religion mandates so. In the end, sacrificing prisoners is saving lives. And that's love.

      Perhaps you could clarify us how abortion and non-reproductive sex make sense in a Darwinian framework?

      How people amass resources and then avoid fulfilling their (evolutive) duties?

      Perhaps you can be the first. Care to give it a go?

      It should be easy, since your materialism is contradiction-free.

      Hmmm... wait...wait...

      Delete
  18. The Church: More errors within fact and reason

    CCC 2267: " . . . more effective detention systems have been developed, which ensure the fair protection of citizens . . .". 

    Error 9) Very well known as, factually, in error (7-10, 17) way before Evangelium Vitae (1995). From 1995, through today, the Church has intentionally, refused to look at the reality of criminal justice systems (7-10, 17), even though, repeatedly, asked to do so. 

    It is impossible that She does not know (16,17).
    Worldwide, criminal justice systems, very often,
    either release or fail to lock up unjust aggressors, suffer escapes, as well as accidental releases, countless criminal acts, within prisons, over and over, again, with prison personnel, visitors and prisoners, at risk and harmed, by those incarcerated unjust aggressors, with all others at risk and harmed by known unjust aggressors, left in the free world or released back into it . . . all well known to the Church (17), but  intentionally avoided by Her. It is a huge, well-known elephant in the room, carried from EV into both the 1997 and 2018 CCC Amendments.

    This is very easy to confirm, with the minimal effort of research, with fact checking, and vetting, as below (17), which the Church should have done, way prior to Evangelium Vitae (1995) and which has been well known, forever, inclusive, of course, is that living unjust aggressors can and do harm and murder, again, when not incarcerated, not executed, while in prison, after escape, after unintended release and intended release. 

    Executed unjust aggressors do not. No dispute. Even the Church must concede.

    The Church is very well aware of repeat unjust aggressors (17), as She, secretly, Herself, oversaw such horrors within the priest sex abomination, until it was exposed, by others. 

    Error 10) The standard cannot be "more effective" nor "fair", neither of which is a standard, but must be, how best to protect the innocent from the unjust aggressors, which is a standard.

    The Church should be very aware, as per Her priest sex horrors, but appears to have learned nothing. 

    The Church, somehow, finds that the world's criminal justice systems will be more caring and protective than the Church (at least 1940-2023), when the obvious, clear evidence is to the contrary (16,17), with Her detailed "requirement" and " grave duty" that "requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm", as detailed, in Her own CCC, but, intentionally, avoided by the Church, within Her CCC 2267 amendments.

    CCC 2260 "The covenant between God and mankind is interwoven with reminders of God's gift of human life and man's murderous violence: For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning.... Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life. This teaching remains necessary for all time."

    CCC 2266: "The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good".

    CCC 2265: "Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life. Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm."

    "requirement" "grave duty" "the common good" . . . 
    and "requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm" with, only, the death penalty capable of doing that, as the Church and all of us know. "This teaching remains necessary for all time."  

    Could it be more obvious? Of course not. Possibly, the Church will remove all these pesky contradictions in Her next amendment.

    To be, very clear, law, law enforcement, criminal justice and sanction are societies' "legitimate defense" against criminal activity, by unjust aggressors. 

    Of course, the Church knows it.

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  19. @Stardusty:

    Gosh! I almost forgot. My apologies.

    Materialism + perception --> collapses into subjective idealism.

    Matter can not be non-matter.

    ¬(p ∧ ¬p)

    Those are the rules that 'NS' has fixed for us. And she is an implacable ruler.

    So even a dumb process points towards the -> self-defeat of 'materialism'.

    Don't be an indietrist, Dusty. Embrace hylemorphism with all your might.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Dr. Fastiggi proposes that Francis's revision is different from what had been traditionally taught, and this is OK because a pope can change earlier teaching (correct it) if the earlier teaching was not taught infallibly, if it was "only" taught fallibly. And he insists that the older teaching was not taught infallibly.

    There are, of course, many difficulties with his position, and while he does address some of them, he does not address others. One of them is that he obscures (perhaps intentionally, perhaps merely sloppily and carelessly) the differences between those teachings taught infallibly through an extraordinary specific act, known at a definite point in time (such as a decree from an ecumenical council) defining a doctrine, and the ones taught infallibly by the ordinary magisterium. He declares that there was no infallible teaching on the licitness of the death penalty, because the Church had "never pronounced" a definite position. But that's just the nature of those teaching taught infallible by the ordinary magisterium, you don't GET a single, definitive pronouncement, what you get is the universal agreement of the bishops.

    He also glosses over the Church's recent pronouncements of the assent which we owe to the pope in his NON-infallible teachings: she says we are obliged to assent to them (yes, he got that part) "according to the mind of the pope" (he ignores the impact of that part). And the mind of the pope is shown by how he sets forth the teaching. If you revise the Catechism, for example...this carries the authority of a Catechism. But Cardinal Schonborn explained (when the CCC was published) that its elements had the authority of the documents from which they were taken, and Francis' cite for the new 2267 is ... not an encyclical, but an address he gave to a symposium. According to his intention, he did NOT intend to bind our assent as firmly as if he had made it part of an encyclical. (And yes, teachings requiring religious assent receive an assent capable of degree, precisely because the mind of the teacher is capable of having a matter of degree in how firmly he intends his people to conform.)

    But what I want to point out is that IF one argues that the licitness DP was not taught with sufficient universality as to become an infallible teaching, then there is a very good chance that NOTHING WILL EVER qualify as being taught infallibly under the ordinary magisterium, so that the concept is empty and always will be. As Christian Washburn has commendably noted, the case for the universality of the licitness of DP in the Church's ordinary magisterium is much stronger than that of other teachings which have been held up as examples of such infallible teachings. If DP fails, then it is difficult to even imagine ANY teaching ever reaching such lofty consensus - especially given that the world (including the Catholic world) becomes ever more fractious, not more unified.)

    ReplyDelete
  21. I majored in theology at a Catholic college years ago. But the drivel being discussed here makes me glad I became a Protestant.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Protestantism is the son of ockhamism. And Ockham was nuts.

      Delete
  22. It is difficult to understand the preoccupation some Catholics have with this peripheral issue....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You got that right, Alexander.

      Delete
    2. On the contrary Alexander, there could hardly be a more important issue, as if the RCC does not teach with authority, and infallibly so in certain circumstances, then everything is up for grabs, and the RCC becomes just another church
      - John Thomas Allcock

      Delete
  23. That is what it has already become: ' just another church."

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    1. To Anonymous

      That says something I would suggest about its claim to be specially founded, guided and protected by God. But it suggests something about the truth of the Christian religion too, as it seems logical that Jesus would have founded and given special teaching authority to a church , so that issues of doctrine and morality could be properly resolved and the truth would be known. So if the RCC turns out to be 'just another church' and there are no other serious contenders for the 'true' one, maybe Christianity itself is a delusion?
      -John Thomas Allcock

      Delete
    2. We don't need Catholicism to be true for Christianity to be true. Israel botched the religion they were given as well, so Catholicism could be the biggest transgressor of God's word and it would have no bearing on Christ being the Lord and the church being his body, those who trust he died for their sins and was raised for their justification.

      Delete
    3. Kevin at 2.11PM

      Do you really think that God would incarnate on earth to save us all, but then either 1. leave us with no means to authoritatively decide upon issues of scriptural interpretation, doctrine and morals 2. allow us to fundamentally botch it once given? That way lies the chaos of the myriad competing and conflicting varieties of Protestantism.

      It is logically possible I grant you, but I would suggest deeply implausible.
      -JOHN THOMAS

      Delete
    4. I find it difficult to answer "1" without delving into Catholicism. I'm not a Catholic and I'm a guest on a Catholic blog, so I'm hesitant to give it the comprehensive treatment my answer would require.

      As for "2", we have been fundamentally botching God's word since Adam. The religious system of Israel became a monstrosity in God's eyes. So yes, I find nothing impossible or implausible about "2". In fact I find it rather likely.

      Delete
  24. "The internal solidification of Catholicism,", Avery Cardinal Dulles, October, 2006 (1)

    Internal solidification, for Cardinal Dulles, is

    "Restoring clarity where there had been confusion in the period following the Second Vatican Council. Rebuilding a strong sense of Catholic identity, including a clear repudiation of the notion that church history can be divided into a 'before' and 'after' Vatican II." " … both popes ( Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI). have emphasized the organic connection between the 'now' of the church and what came before."

    "Specifically, Dulles said, his hunch was that the church may ultimately return to a "more traditional posture" on both the death penalty and the idea of a "just war." Recent popes, Dulles conceded, beginning with John XXIIII, seem to have taken quasi-abolitionist positions on both matters. Yet used sparingly and with safeguards to protect the interests of justice, Dulles argued, both the death penalty and war have, over the centuries, been recognized by the church as legitimate, sometimes even obligatory, exercises of state power. The momentum of "internal solidification," he said, may lead to some reconsideration of these social teachings."

    (1) An unpublished interview with Avery Dulles, John L. Allen, Jr., All Things Catholic Blog, National Catholic Reporter, Dec 19, 2o08

    ReplyDelete
  25. Norm writes:

    "Many would say, The moral deprivation of our times especially in western society renders the government as not worthy of being able to inflict such a penalty. This was Cardinal Avery Dulles view as well."

    I have no been able to find that reference.

    Will you supply one?

    ReplyDelete
  26. I want to take an additional moment here, even if having to do so while using this damnable hand held device, to expand on a point I made by implication, and through a link earlier.

    I have already congratulated Ed Feser for his qualified tolerance of trolls. Not on the basis of his martyring himself for free speeh principles, nor on some delusional belief that one may gain valuable substantive insights through their trollish attacks and commentaries. But rather, because they serve as a continuing example of a certain kind of mentality which views discourse and dialog, just in the same way as they view reason; i.e., as a purely instrumental means, or performance, utilized in the pursuit of what are on their own take, their supposedly brute fact and ultimately, metaphysically pointless, urges.

    So what one is witnessing with them, is not so much the development of an opposing argument in a resolvable dialog, but the behavior of a certain kind of person in response to publicly available stimuli.

    Hence the importance of the Jordan Peterson interview link which I left: and wherein, he describes the clinical research into the psychological traits which cluster around and help to define the resentment driven left-wing authoritarian, and his herd of unreflective useful idiots. There is an interesting mention there of online trolls in this regard, as well.

    And one of the, if not the, signal characteristics of this type of individual is, according to Peterson, low verbal intelligence.

    And this implies, despite all the left-wing blather about "nuance", that distinctions which are easily grasped and processed by others, are in fact invisible to them.

    The relevance of this forcibly struck me sometime after I replied to Stardusty with regard to his objective moral evil question.

    I was surprised he asked such a naive question; even expressing skepticism that he understood his phrasing was in fact asking about the justiciability of mores, or socially condoned patterns of behavior, in comparison, whether he acknowledged it or not, with an objectively verifiable set of universally accepted human values rooted in their very natures.

    Modern empirical research into this began at least a generation ago, focusing on reciprocity and the free rider problem among primates if I recall correctly, and has continued to this day. See: "Anthropologists at the University of Oxford have discovered what they believe to be seven universal moral rules."

    It later occurred to me that he probably had trouble formulating what would have likely been framed by others as a meta-ethics question, or reconstrued as a question regarding the ontological status of "values".

    Of course, once you establish that what we call human values are expressions objectively rooted more deeply in the nature of a human being, than doctrines of radical subjectivity, naive cultural relativism, or emotivist theories would allow, then the question of the goodness or badness of those values as viewed from outside of any human context become a completely different question, and one which in its very framing, the question is itself in danger of being presumptively begged.

    For my money, the famous debate between William Lane Craig and Sam Harris, on securing the foundation of objective moral values highlights some of the critical logical issues involved.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. WLC or Bill Craig is the White Knight of Christianity. Doctorates in philosophy and biblical theology from European universities. Fluent in 4 languages. Extremely knowledgeable about physics and mathematics Author of countless books and articles. And having met him at an airport lounge, he is friendly and pleasant.

      Delete
    2. DNW,
      "I replied to Stardusty with regard to his objective moral evil question."
      Did you? Care to provide a date stamp for this reply?

      "I was surprised he asked such a naive question;"
      I am not surprised by your surprise.

      "even expressing skepticism that he understood his phrasing was in fact asking about the justiciability of mores, or socially condoned patterns of behavior,"
      No, I was not asking for any of those, you are just making that up out of whole cloth. Those are all subjective considerations.

      I was asking you for an objective good or evil, a sentence that expresses a specific objective good or specific objective evil.

      I was not asking you for a justification of mores or socially acceptable behavior or any other such subjective basis for an ethical statement.

      "an objectively verifiable set of universally accepted human values rooted in their very natures."
      You are conflating an objective standard with objective morality. You are also conflating universality of belief with objective truth.

      An objective standard is morally subjective. Don't you understand at least that much?

      It's like the rules of chess, which together form an objective standard. One can objectively judge whether a move does or does not conform to the standard, but the standard itself is subjective. One could, potentially, change the rules any way one whimsically wished to to create a new objective standard, which, like the previous objective standard, would itself be subjective.

      "rooted in their very natures."
      Which are arbitrary at base, and self contradictory as well, not objectively good or objectively evil.

      There is no single human nature. Human beings have many facets of their nature including violence, dishonesty, selfishness and a variety of traits one might subjectively consider evil.

      Human beings also exhibit honesty, altruism, ingenuity, industriousness, courage, and a variety of traits that might subjectively be considered good.

      You have failed to provide a moral sentence that expresses an objective good or an objective evil. All you have done is spew some vague words that express subjective views.

      Can you write a moral sentence that expresses an objective good or an objective evil, I mean, specifically, even just one?

      Delete
    3. @Kooky:

      There is no single human nature.

      Also kooky:

      Human beings...

      'Human beings' = individuals that participate in 'human nature'.

      A 'nature' doesn't preclude that there can be intra-specific variability. Of course there has to be a single nature, or humans would be then members of two different species at the same time.

      Low IQ is spreading.

      Can you write a sentence that doesn't constitute a public display of stupidity? I mean, specifically, even just one?

      Delete

  27. "DNW,

    'I replied to Stardusty with regard to his objective moral evil question.'

    Did you? Care to provide a date stamp for this reply?"


    DNW September 6, 2023 at 10:24 AM

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2023/08/fastiggi-on-capital-punishment-and_30.html?showComment=1694021077746#c2032293780282713218

    I was asking you for an objective good or evil, a sentence that expresses a specific objective good or specific objective evil.

    I don't know what you presently imagine you were asking for then, nor what you imagine you might mean now. But that passage above is not what you wrote.

    I was not asking you for a justification of mores or socially acceptable behavior

    And I did not provide you with any "justification". I replied to the exact question you asked, in the precise context you posed it, using the exact terminology and framing which you had yourself employed, you oaf.

    Apparently you can neither remember what it was that you said, nor grasp the meaning of the very words which you had yourself used.

    To wit, twit:
    "... write a moral sentence expressing an objective moral good, or evil ..."

    Maybe you should look up the word "morals" in a good etymological dictionary for a start. Then once you come to terms with the meaning of the term morals as they exist both good and evil, then I might explain the use of the term justiciable in that context. Maybe.

    I guess Peterson had your type dead to rights when he observed that the biggest predictor of membership in the left wing authoritarianism herd, was "low verbal intelligence".

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. DNW,
      I asked "If you can write a moral sentence expressing an objective moral good, or evil,"

      You still have not done that.

      "But that passage above is not what you wrote."
      Of course it is. An objective moral good, or evil, an expression of one. You have not done that.

      "I replied to the exact question you asked, in the precise context you posed it, using the exact terminology and framing which you had yourself employed, you oaf."
      You are just making that up out of whole cloth, seems to be a habit with you.

      No, I have consistently requested you express an objective moral good, or evil, and thus far you have not. pretty simple, you just have not.

      "Maybe you should look up the word "morals""
      Definitions vary, most cite standards of right and wrong, behaviors that are considered good or bad, those sorts of things. Pretty basic.

      You still have not provided any description of an *objective* right or wrong, an *objective* good or evil.

      Based on all the verbal dancing around you are doing it is beginning to look like you cannot express any such thing.

      On the 6th you made some vague mention of some sort of sexual acts involving minors or lack of consent or violence, all subjectively bad in the opinion of most folks.

      "justiciable"
      Laws are just subjective conventions, typically among the majority or at least though some process roughly connected to some sort of social consensus. Not objectively good or objectively evil.

      Now, maybe your position comes down to the fact that there are no objectively good or objectively evil behaviors. Morals, in that case, are based on personal sensibilities, conventions, laws, mores, all of which are subjective.

      You have consistently failed to express an objective good or objective evil, you do realize that, right?

      Delete
    2. With regard to Stardusty,

      As I have observed and noted before, he is now, and for some time has been, reduced to grabbing sentence fragments and then posting his raw denials, his un-argued assertions, and his perseverating repetitions, like a drunk "Karen" shouting from the back seat of a police cruiser in one of those YouTube click bait videos.

      You can show him, quote him, respond to him, quote yourself quoting him and responding to him while providing confirming links, and the response is in substance ever the same; a denial of recorded fact and a version of: '"Did not! or "Did so!"

      I guess that is all part of his living in a, as he claims, subjectively hallucinated world.

      Now, his hallucinated reality claims aside, this behavior is a well established and documented pattern among attention seeking online trolls.

      And Feser generously allows them some access here; as their presence itself serves as a reminder as well as a preview of what remains after the living death of a (in this case human) "spiritual" center or "soul", and only an obstinate pattern of resentment driven repetition remains; emanating from the shriveled hole where a more dynamic intelligence once - even if only in potentia - might have grown.

      Other writers have captured or addressed this reduction in various ways.

      One representation in fiction was the croaking residuum of professor "Weston", who Ransom the protagonist of the mildly interesting novella Perelandra is forced to encounter. Though virtually dead and beaten near helpless, it/Weston croaks on and on through the night for the attention of Ransom.

      The comic figure of the Black Knight and his autistic defiance as he is whittled down to the stump of a man, in the old Monty Python move .... and The Holy Grail, is another.

      Of course, and speaking of autism, it could simply be a mental disorder too. Something which Stardusty, unlike the drunken Karens in the cop videos, has not yet admitted to and tried to leverage.

      In any event, the case was made, the documents recorded and sealed, and are visible, plain as day, to anyone willing to undergo the tedium of looking.

      Like the street corner schizophrenic trapped in a fractured reality, Stardusty continues to croak on in autonomic defiance.

      But the real world, moves on.

      Delete
    3. Note how calm, patient and polite StarDusty is when replying to his generally obnoxious and insulting interlocutors. They should learn to dialogue without the abuse, which shames them and gains them nothing. They are quite oblivious to this though, being of obviously low social - and perhaps general -intelligence.

      Delete
    4. "You have consistently failed to express an objective good or objective evil, you do realize that, right?

      Good Lord. I've not only been exchanging comments with a troll (and I knew that), and someone who as Peterson's research characterized it, is a "low verbal intelligence" type, but someone who is, apparently, quite simply nuts.

      You would have to be nuts Stardusty, to baldface deny what is recorded and saved on this very thread.

      You cannot even requote the complete passages quoted to you, as it would blow up in your lying face.

      I quoted you. I quoted myself quoting and responding to you. I provided verbatim quotes of quotes and a link.

      And - to repeat myself once more - you, like some drunken Karen in the back seat of a police cruiser, deny the visual record, and just keep autistically repeating the same plainly false assertions, again and again ... and again. You, futilely trying again and again to talk over or your way past the written evidence of your own words and deeds.

      At least the Karens have the added excuse of being drunk to add to their personality disorders.

      Apart from your profoundly limited ability to grasp the meaning of the words which you have yourself used, is that your excuse?

      You need not answer.

      It was a rhetorical question.

      Delete
    5. DNW,
      "You would have to be nuts Stardusty, to baldface deny what is recorded and saved on this very thread."
      Indeed, that would be nuts if that were the case.

      "I provided"...
      No examples of an objective good or an objective evil. None whatsoever.

      "verbatim quotes of quotes and a link."
      None of which are examples of an objective good or an objective evil.

      Here are some things you have expressed.
      1.An objective standard-
      That fails because an objective standard is subjective at base, like the rules of a card game.
      2.Objectively real codes of ethics-
      That fails because codes of ethics are subjective at base. It is an objective fact that people express subjective ethics.
      3.An assertion of certain universal human ethical assertions-
      That fails because there are no such human universals, given the presence of criminal humans. The assertion of universals also fails because it conflates universal belief with objective truth.
      4.Reference to the law-
      That fails because human laws are just conventions of mutually agreeable subjective assertions.
      5.Reference to acts generally considered by modern Americans to be abhorrent, such as child sexual assault, sexual violence, and the like-
      That fails because it conflates widespread opinion with objective truth. The examples themselves indicate that the practitioners were acting within their objective standard, which asserts different acts as good or bad when compared to our objective standard. Objective standards can disagree, just as there can be different rules for playing different sorts of poker. The rules disagree because the objective standards are themselves subjective.

      "You, futilely trying again and again"
      I agree that thus far my requests of you that you provide a description of an objective good, or an objective evil, in support of the assertion that objective morality is real, have thus far proved futile.

      But, being the optimistic sort that I am, hope springs eternal.

      Can you provide a moral sentence that describes an objective good or an objective evil, and also does not fail in the manner of your previous failures detailed in 1 through 5 above?

      Delete
  28. WCB

    Nathan Robinson in "Current Affairs" wrote an article on Jordan Peterson, "The Intellectual We Deserve". It is a rather long examination of Peterson's book, "Maps Of Meaning" Robinson reads this so you don't have to.

    Peterson is a bloviating blatherskite. Those who find Peterson ridiculous owe it to yourself to read this. It will make you laugh.

    Peterson tells men represent order and women represent the dragon of chaos. Deep thinking at its best.

    Nathan Robinson lets Jordan Peterson speak for himself.

    WCB

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    1. @WCB:

      You and your materialist pals are a bunch of wackos who say that we 'hallucinate' reality, so you are the least indicated to give lessons about 'intellectuality'.Your side is lost inside a very weird delusion and enjoys zero credibility.

      Peterson tells men represent order and women represent the dragon of chaos

      Ridiculous and ignorant materialists can't differentiate between men and women and they say that 'men' can get pregnant and have periods.

      Deep thinking at its best.

      Delete
    2. That's what WCB and co. approve as 'rational' thought:

      The current materialist view in neuroscience is that the ordinary, waking world we experience every day is in fact a brain-constructed ‘hallucination’ analogous in nearly every way to a dream. Indeed, the same neural mechanisms seem to underlie our experience of dreams and of the waking world. The difference between, on the one hand, the waking ‘hallucination’ you call your daily life and, on the other hand, your dreamed-up hallucination during sleep is, according to materialism, merely this: the former is believed to be modulated by electromagnetic signals emanating from a supposedly external reality that we can never have direct access to, for we’re irremediably locked into our brain-generated hallucination.

      - Bernardo Kastrup Why Materialism is Balooney

      The peddlers of woo-woo and anti-realism believe that they can teach us about how the world 'really works'.

      Delete
    3. "You and your materialist pals are a bunch of wackos who say that we 'hallucinate' reality,"
      No, that is what idealists like Kastrup say. This is all a dream, they say. The only reality in the cosmos is consciousness. Everything you think is real is just a figment of the imagination in an idealist cosmos devoid of material.

      To the anti-materialist, the idealist like Kastrup, there is no material world, rather, there is only the hallucination of a purely fantasy world. On that view your life is just a dream.

      Kastrup is correct, that the notion of a hallucinated waking realty is the current view in neuroscience, but unlike the anti-materialist view, in neuroscience the view is that this hallucination is realistic, that is, there is a material causal relationship between an external ontological reality and our hallucinated perceptions of it.

      On materialism there is an external ontological reality and our conscious perceptions, our brain constructed hallucination are causally linked to that external reality, and thus provide some fairly accurate perception of that which is both ontologically real and external to ourselves.

      The new age speculations of Kastrup offer nothing more than arm waving non-answers. He has no model of how this supposed pan consciousness functions, where it is, what it is, how it stores memories, how it manifests our first person experience, how it even begins to solve the hard problem of consciousness.

      Nothing. Idealists offer nothing, nothing more than baseless new age arm waving blather.

      But by all means, don't just take my word for it, read for yourself here.
      www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/transcending-our-brain-created-reality-a-new-call-to-lift-natures-veil

      Delete
    4. You know what's most ironic, Stardusty?

      That your materialism leads exactly to where Kastrup is. Because if extra-mental reality is "hallucinated", then the images we have of our brains are also part of the "hallucination". You can't prove that there's a world independent of our minds, much less that said world is constituted of "matter".Which is exactly what Kastrup acknowledges. You can only prove the contents of the subjective 'idea'.

      So to criticize Kastrup is to criticize your own position. Materialism collapses into subjective idealism. And that means that your worldview is self-refuting.

      When we look at our face in the mirror, the reflection we see is supposedly just a subjective ‘copy’ of our head inside our actual head. The latter we can never see.

      Which means that we can't know that we have heads, and that the eyes that NS has furnished us with don't reach out to extra-mental reality, but to the interior of our skull.

      Those are the absurdities that materialism REALLY entails. Your system is a system for cranks, so before mocking other worldviews, you should take a look at your own philosophical sins.

      ...our brain constructed hallucination are causally linked to that external reality, and thus provide some fairly accurate perception of that which is both ontologically real and external to ourselves.

      And that causal nexus is IMPOSSIBLE for your side to prove. Not so much for the hylemorphist, who has the act/potency division at his disposal and his continuous reliance on the form, which guarantees us that we perceive exactly what's out there, and we don't have to model any disgusting and counter-intuitive tertium quids/ "hallucinations".

      We perceive reality as it is. That's the gist of Darwin's theory and his adaptation paradigm. Materialism makes adaptation a total mystery.

      But materialism is false, so no one here is surprised.

      Delete

  29. "The peddlers of woo-woo and anti-realism ..."

    Yeah, I think that that is the point of it. To try and convince you categories are projections of the individual brain. So who you gonna believe: us, or your lying eyes?

    The strict materialism is almost irrelevant to the effect they wish to produce.

    Just what this "hallucinated reality" model, is supposed to imply, and exactly how, is however, another missing link since we don't know the source. Seth? Another researcher?

    At this juncture it is useless to speculate. I guess it is just ... in response to electrical signals, the brain generates controlled hallucination-like perceptions based on predictive algorithms involving expectations. So, blah blah blah. But they are not actually hallucinations, so don't walk in front of a bus, because it really is out there and it will kill you. But when it comes to yapping about trans crap, you can safely get away with it by deploying this theory Or something.

    Otherwise:

    "Hallucinations are where someone sees, hears, smells, tastes or feels things that don't exist outside their mind. See your GP straight away if you're experiencing hallucinations..." nidirect uk gov.

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    Replies
    1. @DNW:

      St. Thomas gave the sensus communis (among other roles), that of differentiating between: when we are awake and the periods in which we are sleeping.

      The sensus communis only works when the external senses are actively taking in information from extra-mental reality. And thanks to the act-potency division, he could make humans aware of said extra-mental reality. The senses are in potency to being actuated by extra-mental, real things, (which constitute the basis of his ontology). It would make no sense for 'Nature' to have given us external senses that do not put us in contact with extra-mental reality. Said position is anti-reason and anti-science. And we know which side is guilty of violating reason.

      He was a more coherent naturalist than the Stardusties, WCBs and Dawkinses. 'Nature does nothing in vain' means that our senses are there to be trusted, and not to reach the absurd conclusion that "everything is a hallucination". St. Thomas was more in accord with Darwin (even though he was born 500+ years before the British) than the materialists that put Darwin in an altar and then contradict his findings.

      He proposed that hallucinations were far and between (they only affected 'madmen' and people with organic defects or injuries). And he attributed those hallucinations to the powerful influence of the imagination. But save those exceptions, Nature has given us the whole package to navigate reality. Again, a more consistent naturalist than our garden variety of materialists.

      A-T is far superior to their nightmarish non-sense."Hallucinations" are an anomaly, not the norm in human experience.

      Delete
    2. UcD writes

      "... their nightmarish non-sense."Hallucinations" are an anomaly, not the norm in human experience."

      Apart from it being obvious that Stardusty, impaired either by the lack of a philosophical education which would have given him the precise vocabulary needed, or lacking the verbal intelligence necessary to grasp the vocabulary he is deploying, has picked up what he only thinks is the game ball, and run back for an own goal.

      Now if it is Anil Seth who is ostensibly informing Stardusty, it is strange that the phrase "controlled hallucination" does not regularly appear in his diatribes here; since Seth insists that the adjective "controlled" is a critical qualifying part of the terminology: the core epistemic tradition which Seth traces back through Kant, and even to Plato. [ though the Platonic epistemology and its metaphysics feature little congruity with Seth, much less Stardusty's jabbering.]

      One of the disquieting thoughts that struck me regarding Seth as I listened to him relate his relatively modest and publicly hedged version, was a question regarding his actual education in physiology or neurology.
      He is professor of "cognitive and computational neuroscience"
      "Department of Informatics
      Education
      DPhil (Computer Science & Artificial Intelligence), University of Sussex
      MSc (Knowledge-Based Systems), University of Sussex"


      What are the real implications of an in-common or shared neural processing network in the brain which serves under different conditions to produce both classic medically defined hallucinations having no direct extra-mental referent, and those representations or experiences which are triggered by stimuli emerging from some hypothetical, formally mysterious, and inaccessable noumenal reality which Seth concedes nonetheless exists?

      Perhaps not that much by the looks of it to any of the philosophically informed.

      Certainly not the slavering, overdrawn and sloppily flogged consequences of his most enthusiastic relativist and secular humanist fanboy.

      The moment Seth spoke of three color cones producing color from wavelengths of the spectrum [we can place aside the "bayesian expectation" for the moment], he asserts knowledge of the actual nature of the external phenomena which is independent and intersubjectively verifiable by subjects sharing objectively similar powers.

      And tetrachomacy and color blindness serve to reinforce this.

      These conditions are not solely brain produced, but require objective physical characteristics responsive to the environment, to be present or absent, (or perhaps lost in the case of phantom pain) to be experienced.

      On the other hand the brain doesn't have to produce any baysesian prediction, for one to experience the pain and the collapse, should someone softwalk up behind our experimental "subject" and strike him on the tailbone with a hard swing of a baseball bat.

      Delete
    3. @ DNW:

      I think you are seeing the wholly unrewarding outcome of trying to engage The Star Bucket in these pages. While he is (mostly) polite in the terms of the individual sentences and paragraphs he throws off, his overall approach is so monumentally overcast by his (philosophically) infantile lack of awareness of even the most basic considerations of context, that he invariably intrudes into even the most unrelated subjects with his own obtuse and benighted premises of materialism and stomps with hob-nailed boots on discussions that are almost infinitely far removed from those benighted premises. Instead of recognizing that both supporters of the Francine changes and objectors to those changes would categorically reject his own arguments on DP, he just has to register an opinion here even though it could not even in principle help settle a Catholic's view of Fastiggi or Feser's arguments. I am far from the first to notice that even when he seems to attempt to take on an opponents premises - for the sake of the argument - to show some logical fallacy residing in the argument, his attempts are so cartoonishly oversimplified that they are hopeless straw-man efforts (at best, that is). Except when he imports his materialism in the backdoor anyway - which happens regularly - and then it's just a mishmash of jabber.

      I would hope that UcD (soon) realizes the futility of engaging with him, even as baiting and such. Like the old marketing theories that there is no such thing as bad publicity, Starry seems to think there is no such thing as a reply comment which is not intended as encouragement to continue.

      Delete
    4. Tony, writes regarding another commenter:

      " ... his own obtuse and benighted premises of materialism"

      Yeah, so as Feser has highlighted over the years, an important question, shown by the shifting terminology used by anti-theists, is, "What is materialism, and what is meant by the use of the term?"

      As the nature - ultimate or otherwise - of matter, taken to be all of reality, has been reconceptualized and called into question and as our physical reality seems to be de-materialized by physics itself, the anti-theist party is left trying out replacement terminologies as more satisfactory labels for their philosophical stances and to describe the reality in which their scientism supposedly operates. Feser has addressed this theme for years.

      So, " physicalism" and "naturalism" are added to mechanism and materialism, as the physical world looks or is hypothesised to be ever more insubstantial and less materially palpable in principle than primitive materialism ever knew, Greek atomism notwithstanding.

      I mean once you get past stones knocking into and propelling each other about, and you start talking about fields, forces, action at a distance, and even photons which until recently were apparently held to be immaterial, what's left of the original "materialism" as dealing with primitively conceived and encountered matter?: except the claim that whatever makes up this nature is all of reality, that it is the only one, and there is no God or super-nature in addition to it

      In a sense it is more a slogan and a party platform than a purely rational conclusion. More like the old Marx inveighing against the very permissability of the distraction of metaphysics , or the bugger Gore Vidal insisting that people pledge their emotional allegiance to the fecund muck of the earth rather than to the sky. "Don't look over there! Nothing to see. It's a distraction. Why do you hate humanity? Do you think you are special? Who are you, to say "No."? Get back in harness!!"

      Now I am sure that there are libertarian "materialists" too.

      But for some reason, having to do with personality types I suspect, most of them seem to be molesters of some stripe or another ... aka "progressives".

      Delete
    5. Tony,
      "he just has to register an opinion here even though it could not even in principle help settle a Catholic's view of Fastiggi or Feser's arguments."
      Atheists often help Catholics settle their views. A great many people are leaving their churches, their religions, and even belief in god altogether, in no small part due to the assistance of atheists. You're welcome.

      "Except when he imports his materialism in the backdoor anyway"
      Backdoor materialism? Sorry, I don't know what that is. Material is "manifest and evident to our senses". That seems pretty front door to me.

      "they are hopeless straw-man efforts (at best, that is)"
      I quoted the whole of the statement by Francis, hardly a strawman. There it is, in context.

      Francis is speaking against the "reactionaries" who are "backwards looking" and stuck in their "ideology". Hardly a strawman, that is what the Bishop of Rome said. If you don't like it, well, up to you, I didn't make it up, those are the words of Francis himself.

      I do find it rather odd that the tables seem to have turned, at least to some extent. The pope is now more willing to change than American Catholics generally, it seems!

      You do realize, I presume, that the Church has apologized a great many times. And not just Francis. These official Vatican apologies have been issued again and again. You do understand, that means the Church was wrong, don't you? Isn't it better to admit when you are wrong, and change?


      Delete
    6. DNW,
      "Apart from it being obvious that Stardusty, impaired either by the lack of a philosophical education which would have given him the precise vocabulary needed, or lacking the verbal intelligence necessary to grasp the vocabulary he is deploying, "
      Oh yes, you are clearly a legend in your own mind, but, I notice you still have not provided a statement that expresses an objective good, or an objective evil that does not fail as I clearly listed your failure modes above September 9, 2023 at 7:38 PM

      Delete
    7. "you are clearly a legend in your own mind, but, I notice you still ..."

      Asked and answered.
      Sept 6.
      http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2023/08/fastiggi-on-capital-punishment-and_30.html?showComment=1694021077746#c2032293780282713218

      Not my fault that for once your apparent ignorance of the meaning of certain terms you were using had left you asking a question that had an obvious answer.

      Apart from that, you just keep repeatedly insisting that the objective is subjective. If you continue on that line, per your crackpot stipulative definition no answer will suffice to penetrate your giddy autism.

      What you might instead try at some future date, is to define exactly what it is that you mean by "objective" - if the term has any certain meaning for you - and to outline the criteria which must be met, or are sufficient in order for you acknowledge that a proposition expressing an objective moral evil has been successfully stated. What is your standard of proof? A statement affirming something regarding which no crackpot or pervert locked in his own head can formulate a denial?

      If no such means of evaluation can be clearly stated, then your question, like much of what you assert, is simply fundamentally nonsensical.

      Try formulating your criteria. Maybe someone will be interested in taking you up on it.

      Or, you can just continue to snip sentence fragments and yell at them, while trolling Ed Feser.

      Your choice. If that is, there is a "you", that has real "choice".

      Delete
    8. @Stardusty:

      A great many people are leaving their churches, their religions, and even belief in god altogether, in no small part due to the assistance of atheists.

      You do realize that just because there's a growing number of human beings that believe that P, that does not make P objectively true, don't you?

      You are just showing that there's a growing number of people who are easily brainwashed by fallacious arguments. Materialism is changing religious belief, not abandoning it.

      But according to you, making people more fanatic and more anti-science and anti-reason is something 'good'. Congratulations, Stardusty, your dream of making society dumber is being actualized. Now you won't feel all alone.

      The same people that can't even freely choose their beliefs, because they are at the mercy of their neurochemistry and can only 'apparently' choose their actions. Yes, materialism is really THAT dumb. People really choose nothing. Where's the merit?

      Your side may be increasing in numbers, but the stupidity of your doctrine keeps being exactly the same.

      Your fallacy of appeal to numbers/ popularity doesn't impress anyone around here. You don't say "we are right". You just say "we are growing".

      Do you have anything of value to add?

      Material is "manifest and evident to our senses".

      No, it's not. That's why idealism has always been a thing in the history of philosophy. We have perceptions. That DOESN'T prove that that those perceptions are caused by "material". Mere assertions don't constitute proof.

      And specially since you are a weirdo who "hallucinates" his own existence and can't prove extra-mental causality.

      You transpire pure idiocy.

      Delete
    9. UcD
      Says,
      ...idealism has always been a thing in the history of philosophy

      And as you mention elsewhere materialism has an interesting tendency to morph into something akin, if not admitted by its proponents, to subjective idealism.

      Various strategies have been devised by the philosophical proponents of materialism to get around the problem as you well know, and has been treated here multiple times.

      The way the agenda driven atheist or secular humanist deals with this, is by proclaiming scorched earth materialism when rhetorically advantageous, but then claiming "epistemic humility" and metaphysical nescience, when confronted with the antinomic dead ends implicit in his premisses.

      You are understandably annoyed.

      Delete
    10. Oh yes, you are clearly a legend in your own mind

      "You are small," the flea mocked to the cat.

      Apart from that, you just keep repeatedly insisting that the objective is subjective. If you continue on that line, per your crackpot stipulative definition no answer will suffice to penetrate your giddy autism.

      Not very nice to insult people with autism like that. I doubt Stardusty does.

      Delete
    11. DNW,
      "Apart from that, you just keep repeatedly insisting that the objective is subjective."
      You keep providing the subjective as if it were objective.

      All your attempts failed in the 5 ways I listed above, for which you have provided no counter arguments.

      Since you have failed to provide any counter arguments to my listing of the 5 ways your subjective assertions fail to be objective assertions, my clear delineations of your failures stand.

      An objective standard is subjective at base, like the rules of a card game.

      The objective fact that people express subjective views does not make those views objective.

      There are no humanly universal moral principles, and even if there were that would just be a universally held subjective opinion, since the whole of humanity can be wrong.

      The law is just a convention of subjective principles that in general many or most people generally agree to usually abide by, hardly objective.

      Just because nearly everybody considers some heinous crime to be bad does not make it objectively bad, just a widely held subjective opinion.

      You still have not provided a single objective moral good or an objective moral evil. None, not any, whatsoever.

      Delete
    12. You still have not provided a single objective moral good or an objective moral evil. None, not any, whatsoever.

      Even a philosophy neophyte knows that if you decide beforehand to define "objective" in such a way that nothing could be objective, then there won't be any objective moral good or objective moral evil.

      But even said neophyte will also realize that such a result, while valid, is also trite and empty. If you shouldn't have defined objective that way, then maybe there could at least in theory be an objective good.

      So then we have to ask whether that particular definition of objective is a good one...and immediately we find that have an unalterably thorough need for there to be a category "good" that allows us to have a good definition.

      If our interlocutor is unwilling to seek, with us, a good definition, then we can converse no more with him, as we have nothing in common with him.

      Delete
    13. Anon,
      ob·jec·tive
      /əbˈjektiv/
      adjective
      1.
      (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

      "Objective morality is the idea that right and wrong exist factually, without any importance of opinion. It's the concept that some actions and beliefs are imperatively good or inherently bad, and that the goodness or badness of those things holds true no matter who you are or what else you believe in."

      "William Lane Craig says that objective moral values are “values that are valid and binding whether anyone believes them or not”"

      I am just using the word "objective" and the term "objective morality" in the manner one finds in the dictionary, an internet search, or from a religious philosopher such as WLC.

      I haven't ginned up some sort of novel self-serving definition of objective morality.

      Objective morality is a common term with a broadly agreed upon definition.

      It is under that broadly agreed upon definition that objective morality is logically impossible, ruled out thousands of years ago at least, as evidenced by Plato in his dialog between Socrates and Euthyphro.

      DNW has made many attempts to consider that which is clearly subjective to somehow be objective. I have shown in multiple posts that he has failed to demonstrate objective morality, only an objective standard that is subjective at base, or objectively expressed subjective opinions, or widely held subjective opinions.

      Delete
    14. (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

      "Objective morality is the idea that right and wrong exist factually, without any importance of opinion.


      To the almost-neophyte who has had a tiny bit of training, the above immediately makes you wonder whether you have merely transferred the difficulty from the word "objective" to the words "factual" and "opinion".

      For instance, in discussing the question, can we assert that you (Stardusty) exist "factually", or should we rather assert that "you exist" is merely an opinion that you (Stardusty) hold for the moment?

      Obviously, if there are no people who factually exist, then it would be difficult to establish that they have factual moral obligations. But then, again, that would be a trivial, even trite result to hold forth upon.

      Delete
    15. Anonymalhous
      I didn't transfer the word "objective" to anything in those references. I just pulled those words off the internet. I thought that was clear from my use of quotation marks and my further reference to the dictionary, internet search, and WLC in that order.

      Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

      Those are not my words, which was my point. I am not making up some novel definition for some contrived or self serving purpose.

      Anybody who is interested can search for the term "objective morality" and get many such definitions, most of which are pretty similar in meaning.

      It is an objective matter as to whether I, or any material object, exists as a collection of ontologically real material, or not. There is a factual state of affairs in the cosmos regarding that assertion. The existence or non-existence of a material object is a subject of factual ontology.

      Our perceptions of such an existent object are subject to subjective distortions due to the limited capacities of our sensory and reasoning faculties.

      Morality isn't like that.

      The assertion "P is good" cannot be a matter of objective fact that P is indeed good, and P as good cannot be an objective ontological feature of the cosmos.

      It can be an objective ontological fact of the cosmos that a being expresses that P is good.

      It can be an objective ontological fact of the cosmos that many beings agree that P is good and can objectively determine whether certain actions do or do not meet the criteria for P.

      But P is logically barred from being factually objectively good.

      The assertion of objective morality, on the broadly understood meaning of that term, is logically ruled out by arguments having the form of a dichotomy of the sort posed in Plato's dialog between Socrates and Euthyphro.

      Having cleared that up for you I believe you owe me copious beers, a smashed guitar, girls seduced by false stories of lost loved ones, a dean's wife, and general destructive mayhem.

      Delete
    16. Me: For instance, in discussing the question, can we assert that you (Stardusty) exist "factually", or should we rather assert that "you exist" is merely an opinion that you (Stardusty) hold for the moment?

      Stardusty: It is an objective matter as to whether I, or any material object, exists as a collection of ontologically real material, or not. There is a factual state of affairs in the cosmos regarding that assertion.

      Let us agree that the state of the material universe at a specific moment in time is factual. My question was whether "you exist" is factual. You are not the universe. You here asserted that whether you, or any material collection exists, is a factual issue. I observe that the choice to consider as "a collection", a certain portion of the universe, namely a so-called "collection" consisting of just the particles that happen to be "interior to" a specific skin seems - to me - an arbitrary and subjective act. The notional subset of the universe consisting of those particles is no more objective than the "collection" of 2 legos in my box, the planet Neptune, the 423,564,345th neutrino emitted by a pulsar in Andromeda galaxy during the last second, and some lint in a dryer of a certain house in Tokyo. Your thought that your existence is an objective, factual matter exhibits the squishy difficulties of defining both "objective" and "factual".

      I didn't transfer the word "objective" to anything in those references. I just pulled those words off the internet.

      I haven't the least interest in whether your effort to state a definition of "objective" was from your own mind or you were depending on other sources. Don't care. I was merely pointing out that defining one difficult word in terms of an equally difficult word that is not simpler nor more basic in principle nor easier to understand is not going to help. The troublesome reality is that in different contexts, people mean different things by the terms, and not everyone uses the terms exactly the same.

      Having cleared that up for you I believe you owe me copious beers,

      I owe you factual beers only if your existence is factually, objectively real. So, go ahead to the bar, I will meet you and pay for them when I factually and objectively owe you for them.

      Delete
    17. Anonymalhous
      "whether "you exist" is factual"
      Answering that accurately requires accurate definitions of the self and of existence as it relates to arrangements of material.

      Without some detailed and precise language defining the terms, equivocation is almost inevitable.

      "namely a so-called "collection" consisting of just the particles that happen to be "interior to" a specific skin seems - to me - an arbitrary and subjective act."
      Right.
      That's why I hedged a bit with *exists as a collection*, emphasis on *as a*.

      "factual matter exhibits the squishy difficulties of defining both "objective" and "factual"."
      Right, not easy to rigorously pack quickly into a combox.

      "equally difficult word that is not simpler nor more basic in principle nor easier to understand is not going to help."
      It helps on the subject I was discussing, morality.

      "people mean different things by the terms, and not everyone uses the terms exactly the same."
      The term "objective morality" is pretty broadly agreed upon. Based on that broadly agreed upon definition of the term, objective morality is logically impossible.

      If you want to present arguments that nothing can be shown to be objective, fine, that only supports my assertion that morality is not objective.

      Delete
    18. The term "objective morality" is pretty broadly agreed upon.

      Your wild assumption here would be mildly amusing, if it wasn't accompanied by all the rest.

      Within the context in which the original question was asked, a reader could reasonably interpret "objective morality" within a framework that accepts as a premise that "individuals" who are "persons" (i.e. certain 'collections' of particles) objectively exist. If you exclude that as "objective" then the question was most likely silly.

      Nearly all readers here in this blog would have also reasonably interpreted the question within a framework that accepts as a premise that "morality" entails free will: most people who don't accept free will as a premise ALSO don't ask heavy questions about "objective morality" as if they were...questions.

      And so on: within various different contexts, the question asked takes on a cast of different presuppositions, and you simply shrug these off as if they don't matter in the least to the conversation. Humpty Dumpty perceptively exercised his will to power when he exclaimed that "a word means exactly what I say it means", but he did not perceptively realize the futility of others trying to converse with him.

      Delete
    19. Anon,
      "and you simply shrug these off as if they don't matter in the least to the conversation."
      Right, because they don't.

      Objective morality is logically impossible. Arguments of the form of the Euthyphro dilemma prove that logical fact.

      Waving around red herrings such as free will, personhood, and Humpty Dumpty don't matter.

      If you think that objective morality is real then describe for me an objective good or an objective evil, I mean specifically.

      Not just a generalized discussion about all kinds of philosophical ideas, I mean specifically, a few sentences that describe a particular objective good, or a particular objective evil.

      Even just one.

      Delete
    20. If you think that objective morality is real then describe for me an objective good or an objective evil, I mean specifically.

      If you think that your comments provide an objective good to me, then provide the proof.

      Delete
    21. Anon,
      "If you think that your comments provide an objective good"
      I don't. An assertion of good or evil is subjective by logical necessity.

      You are, and everybody on this blog is, incapable of expressing an objective good or objective evil.

      If anybody disagrees, fine, by all means, express what you consider to be an objective good or an objective evil.

      Delete
    22. Objective morality is logically impossible. Arguments of the form of the Euthyphro dilemma prove that logical fact.

      You deem this truth to be a fact, i.e. a "logical fact". But above you deem only matter and its activity (including waves) to be "factual". Is logic matter? Is it matter in action? Few materialists think it is so, and many would decline to call logic a "material fact".

      In particular, many non-theists don't think that the Euthyphro dilemma proves as a "fact" that objective morality is logically impossible. Even materialists. It is your opinion that the dilemma proves it, but others' opinions differ. So, even if it were true (that the dilemma necessarily leads to the conclusion that objective morality is logically impossible), it would still be the case that either your view of the reasons why or theirs are unsound. On what basis could you insist that it is yours that lands at "the fact" and at the same time gives you justifiably the feeling that you know it to be fact, rather than merely that you feel it to be fact?

      Indeed, if the experience "it is a logical fact" is the feeling of that your brain induces in you under certain material conditions that don't intrinsically happen only when the thing you are thinking about is actually true AND when you it so you are also thinking of the actual causes that make it actually true (so as to not only have the feeling, but to have it justifiably), then your current experience in which you feel "it is a logical fact" is merely a subjective feeling full stop.

      Under your hypothesis, all feelings and experiences, including the experience of feeling "that is a fact" (regarding any possible assertion) cannot be anything other than subjective. Your saying "it is a logical fact" is expressing merely in strong words what you subjectively feel to be right.

      Delete
    23. Anon,
      "many would decline to call logic a "material fact"."
      Hence my use of the term "logical fact". If one rejects logic then one does not value logical facts.

      For those of us who choose to agree, at least provisionally, to the conventions of logic based on logical axioms then determination of a logical fact by those conventions is valuable.

      "On what basis could you insist that it is yours that lands at "the fact" and at the same time gives you justifiably"
      Supposing the source of P as asserted to be objectively good is god.

      Does god say P is good because it is good? The god is not the source of P and we are logically bound to ask the question again of god's god, and so forth in a non-terminating infinite regression of gods, which is irrational and thus not objectively good.

      I P good because god says P is good? Then P is merely arbitrary and thus not objectively good.

      Other attempts to appeal to god's nature as the source of the good are just a rewording of the arbitrary case.

      The same arguments apply to any asserted objective good, from god or from any other source.

      " if the experience "it is a logical fact" is the feeling of that your brain induces ..."it is a logical fact" is merely a subjective feeling full stop."
      Logic is an objective standard. One can objectively test whether a proposition does or does not conform to that standard.

      By the test of conformance to the objective standard of logic then it is a logical fact that objective morality is logically impossible.

      If one does not value logic then conformance to the objective standard of logic is not valuable to such an individual.

      "Your saying "it is a logical fact" is expressing merely in strong words what you subjectively feel to be right."
      No, a logical fact is objectively determined to conform to the objective standard of logic.

      If one feels no value in such conformance then identification of an assertion as a logical fact has no value to that individual.

      Delete
    24. By the test of conformance to the objective standard of logic then it is a logical fact that objective morality is logically impossible.

      Logic is only as good as the premises involved. If your initial premises are flawed, your conclusion will be garbage no matter how logical the process. This is such a case, because the choices provided aren't the only options.

      But the answer to the existence of objective moral facts does indeed involve God, a concept of which you have demonstrated an extreme, ideologically blinkered understanding, on this site and on any other I've seen you post.

      So long as you think Plato's dilemma is a far stronger conundrum than it actually is, you are incapable of judging the truth of objective morality. That's a simple truth.

      Delete
    25. Kevin,
      "This is such a case, because the choices provided aren't the only options."
      Yet you name no other choices I have not already covered.

      WLC, and others, attempt to turn the dilemma into a trilemma by appealing to god's supposedly good nature.

      I say chocolate is best, clearly an arbitrary assertion, not demonstrating that chocolate is objectively best.

      Ah, but it is my nature to say chocolate is best. Well, of course, that is what all our arbitrary declarations are, merely expressions of our natures. I say chocolate is best because it is my nature to prefer chocolate. My nature is itself arbitrary, and so is god's.

      God did not choose its own nature, and god cannot change its nature. If P is asserted to be good because god says so then P is arbitrary because it is an expression of god's arbitrary nature, and therefore not an expression of an objective good.

      You only speak in vague, unsupported, generalities.

      You claim there are other choices to the dilemma, but you name none.

      You claim there are particular propositions that are objectively good, or objectively evil, but you name none.

      You are incapable of stating an alternative to the dilemma that does not reduce to one of the 2 horns already stated.

      You are incapable of stating a specific proposition that is objectively good or objectively evil.

      But by all means, prove me wrong by counterexample, I mean, specifically. Not a diffuse discussion of generalized philosophical opinions, I mean specifically and explicitly.

      State an alternative to the dilemma that does not reduce to one of the already stated horns.

      State a proposition that is objectively good or objectively evil.

      Delete
    26. @Kevin:

      'Logic' is only a valid tool if it tracks reality.

      According to materialism, we can't experience reality at all, we can only experience some weird 'hallucination' inside our brains that may or may not represent reality accurately.

      So, if materialism is true, then logic is a worthless tool.

      And yet, materialists say the are the 'champions of logic.

      It's just pathetic.

      Delete
    27. @UncommonDescent,

      "'Logic' is only a valid tool if it tracks reality."

      False. There are systems of logic which don't track reality but they are still valid.

      "According to materialism, we can't experience reality at all, we can only experience some weird 'hallucination' inside our brains that may or may not represent reality accurately."

      Materialism says no such thing, but common sense does. Do colours exist in reality, or in our minds? Colours are just the way our minds interpret different frequencies of light. Roses aren't 'really' red. But anyway, whatever we experience, it is subject to the laws of logic.

      "So, if materialism is true, then logic is a worthless tool."

      False. Again, whatever we experince is subject to the laws of logic.

      "And yet, materialists say the are the 'champions of logic."

      No, they don't. That's just your silly strawman.

      "It's just pathetic."

      Something here is certainly pathetic, but it ain't materialism.

      Delete
  30. This is not a good bill to die on my professor.

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    1. I agree that the death penalty, on its own, is not a core belief upon which to set one's standard. But the presentation of the issue touches on a core belief of Catholicism, that of authority to teach definitively, i.e. to teach in a way that binds the faithful to believe unreservedly and irreformably.

      Vatican II spelled out more distinctly than had been stated before, that the body of definitive doctrines that have been taught so as to bind our belief unreservedly and irreformably is larger than the body of doctrines taught by the popes and councils in extraordinary, binding pronouncements made at a definite point in time. They include also doctrines taught, to be held, by the whole body of bishops throughout the world.

      The trouble is this: that teaching by Vatican II is either (a) essentially and utterly useless because whether a doctrine has been taught with "sufficient" universality can NEVER be known without an extraordinary pronouncement of the Church (by the pope or in Council) declaring the doctrine as definitive; or (b) it IS useful because whether it has so been taught CAN be known without such an extraordinary pronouncement.

      It would be an odd thing if the Vatican II's careful work on this teaching were essentially useless, and we should generally try to avoid such a conclusion unless forced into by overwhelming evidence. So we should presumethat it is a useful teaching.

      When one examines candidates for things that are (i) not yet defined by an extraordinary pronouncement, but also (ii) have been taught as to be held universally by the body of bishops exercising their ordinary magisterium, the in-principle moral licitness of the death penalty seems to be in extremely good standing as such a candidate. Maybe there are some in even better standing, but none come to mind off the top of my head. It has considerably more backing than the teaching on the moral illicitness of intentional artificial contraception, for example.

      It would also be an odd thing if we were to discover that although the category is, in principle, a useful category, it happens to be an empty set. Odd because that condition would have held true during VII as well, when the Fathers pronounced their teaching on the category. Yet if the criteria by which one may judge whether a proposed doctrine falls into the category or not are so stringent that NO teaching passes the test, then we come to that very odd result. This should make us, rather, consider the criteria for judging more carefully, and work to understand them better. For, the authority of the Fathers of VII is at stake.

      And all of this runs right into the general issue of the teaching authority of the Church to bind us, and whether Christ did really give that teaching authority to the apostles for them to pass on. And that is, literally, a hill to die on. Or scaffold, as per St. Thomas More.

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    2. If Dr. Fastiggi's position boils down to (a) we couldn't know that the licitness of the DP was taught infallibly by the bishops exercising their ordinary magisterium, until a pope confirmed it in an extraordinary pronouncement, and (b) since Francis has said the opposite, NOW we know that it wasn't taught infallibly, then he is in the position of eviscerating the teaching of VII on the issue. Not a good place to be.

      Alternatively, if Feser's position can be boiled down to: (a) we can safely judge that the in-principle licitness of DP was taught infallibly; and (b) because of that, we are allowed and required to read any ambiguities in Francis's teaching in favor of the licitness of DP, even if that seems like a less plausible interpretation, then his thesis would appear to save the VII doctrine as a viable, usable doctrine. This might be a little hard on Francis, I suppose, but he is always free to BE MORE CAREFUL, (as unpleasant as he finds that task).

      And anyway, any and every pope is constrained by what the Church taught infallibly before, he is in no worse position than every other on that score. But that principle leads to a general truth about interpreting teaching statements of prelates: they will be (must be) interpreted in favor of tradition, and against opposing novelty, where ambiguity is present. That is, it belongs to the very blood and bones of the Church to ASSUME that a prelate means to teach in accordance with past, traditional teaching if possible; he must make himself CLEAR AND EXPLICIT if he means to contradict the past traditional teaching. And in this case, since Cdl. Ladaria explained that Francis intended to teach consistently with the traditional teaching, that goes double - we are forced to come up with a consistent reading.

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  31. A minor (but important) note about this topic from a Patrologist. While it is quite true to say that no Father explicitly taught that the death penalty was intrinsically immoral always and everywhere to everyone, even pagans, some did teach that it was forbidden for Christians to take part in or inflict the death penalty or other forms of bloodshed: this is explicitly the belief of Tertullian and Origen and Lucifer of Cagliari, and seems to be assumed by a number of other writers. This principle seems to be closely related to early canonical regulations on these topics. This position, more or less, is that the New Covenant is distinguished from the Old Covenant by the fact that the Old Covenant makes of the Jews a nation with a law code that engages in organized warfare and the death penalty, whereas the New Covenant makes of the Church a fundamentally different sort of entity that in principle avoids warfare and bloodshed.

    Of course, once the Roman state became definitively Christian, these regulations were no longer enforced and went into abeyance (as did regulations forbidding Christians from being Roman soldiers), but the basic principle that the death penalty was in some sense un-Christian or at least contrary to Christian perfection underlies later arguments like that of Augustine, Gregory the Great, and Nicholas as to the desirability of limiting or abolishing the death penalty in practice and the requirement of Christian clerics to refrain from participating in its operations. It also clearly underlies later systems like that of the Gregorian Reformers forbidding clerics and monks to to take part in bloodshed and executions, which were justified not merely in prudential terms but as a higher degree of perfection to which all Christians should at least aspire.

    Which is to say that it is not quite accurate to treat anti-death-penalty positions as merely or purely prudential, practical judgments on the part of Popes and Fathers. Rather, these were not only prudential, but also principled positions appealing to a specific principle about the nature of the New Covenant in contradistinction to the Old Covenant and the goals and ideals of Christian perfection. This constitutes the quite strong continuity present from the Fathers and early Church through the Middle Ages to the present Magisterial teaching on the death penalty.

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  32. Some corrections:

    some did teach that it was forbidden for Christians to take part in or inflict the death penalty or other forms of bloodshed: this is explicitly the belief of Tertullian and Origen

    I believe that Origen's belief was more nuanced than "Christians must not take part in or inflict the death penalty". In commenting on Romans (13:1-4, where Paul admonishes that the prince uses the sword to execute God's vengeance).

    In what sense is a judge in this world the servant of God?... It seems to me that this questions is answered by that passage in the Acts of the Apostles where the decision was taken to impose only certain ritual obligations on Gentile believers. They were told to abstain what had been sacrificed to idols, from blood and from fornication, but nothing was said about murder, adultery, theft, homosexuality or other crimes which are punished by both divine and human laws. Now if what was explicitly forbidden to the Gentiles was all they had to do, then it would seem as if these other things were all right. But look at how the Holy Spirit has organized everything. Because these other crimes are already punished by secular law, it seemed superfluous to add a divine prohibition as well. All that he decreed concerning matters which seemed right from the divine point of view but which were not covered by human laws. It is in this way that a human judge acts as a servant of God. For God wants these crimes to be punished by human judges and not by representatives of the church. [Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans]

    Since a human judge who is a Christian still has the role of judge, i.e. of punishing malefactors, what Origen was against was that officials of the Church be the ones who are the judges required to render judgment of blood under the civil law. It appears that was he was not against non-clerics doing so.

    Of course, once the Roman state became definitively Christian, these regulations were no longer enforced and went into abeyance (as did regulations forbidding Christians from being Roman soldiers),

    First, there was considerable dispute and different practices, around the Church, as to having Christians being soldiers. In the beginning, when the question first came up (with the Apostles) their explicit direction to soldiers was to be just (not to extort) and be satisfied with their pay - not to stop being soldiers.

    This position, more or less, is that the New Covenant is distinguished from the Old Covenant by the fact that the Old Covenant makes of the Jews a nation with a law code that engages in organized warfare and the death penalty, whereas the New Covenant makes of the Church a fundamentally different sort of entity that in principle avoids warfare and bloodshed.

    Right: because the Church is not responsible for civil order, it can avoid using force in pursuing the Gospel. As an organization, it's goals don't need it to use force in that way. But that stance says nothing about whether the civil authorities can rightly avoid using force in order to pursue civil order and the common good. Different goals, different tools and methods.

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  33. but the basic principle that the death penalty was in some sense un-Christian or at least contrary to Christian perfection underlies later arguments like that of Augustine, ...

    Not only was Augustine reticent to call for the DP, he insisted that people didn't necessarily even have the right to use lethal means for self-defense. That is, not necessarily: under his teaching, the victim of an unjust aggressor ought to act out of charity, and that charity includes love of every person, including the unjust aggressor. Because of this, there is no automatic and certain result that it is best for all parties that the victim's life be spared and the aggressor's life be taken (if lethal means is the only means of self-defense). In charity, the victim ought to be willing to save the life of the aggressor if that was best for all involved, and to allow herself to be killed.

    However, the very same principle did not PRECLUDE using lethal means of defense, if that produced the best outcome under charity. The use of that lethal force, in that case, would be at the service of charity and that might, indeed, be the only (or most) upright action to take. Augustine allowed for that possibility, and it applied also to DP - for which reason he carefully avoided an outright ban on using DP and did not characterize never using DP as the higher degree of perfection. It depended.

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