Sunday, August 13, 2023

Haugeland on hylomorphism

In his essay “Ontological Supervenience” (in his anthology Having Thought: Essays in the Metaphysics of Mind), John Haugeland puts forward an unusual criticism of hylomorphism, essentially accusing it of being too parsimonious.  The standard objection to hylomorphism is that it posits more distinctions and entities than are necessary.  Haugeland suggests that it posits too few, thereby failing to capture all of reality.

Let’s take a look, starting with the key passage:

The fatal flaw in hylomorphism is that it leaves too little room for distinctions: being concrete, individual, temporal (contingent), and material are all lumped together.  That is, all and only material entities are particular, temporal concreta – everything else is an abstract, eternal kind.  Moreover, there is only one possible relation between the two sides: inhesion (instantiation…).  And, finally, the modes of composition are asymmetrical: you can go horizontally or up, but not down.  That is, you can take an arbitrary bunch of material individuals and fuse them into a new one; or, you can abstract away from – rise above – all their materiality to get a pure form...  What you can't do is go the other way, and make matter out of forms – once eternal, always eternal.  The result is a rigid hierarchy, with all temporal individuals exactly on a par at the bottom. (p. 121)

The first thing to say is that Haugeland appears to have Aristotle’s version of hylomorphism in mind, rather than the emended versions developed by Aquinas and other Scholastics.  For those later versions do indeed recognize further possibilities beyond those to which Haugeland says hylomorphism is limited. 

Consider the account Aquinas gives of angelic intellects.  Each such intellect is a concrete particular, not an abstract kind.   And since each has a nature, each can be said to have a form.  But an angel is not a material substance, and thus its form is not instantiated in matter.  Since an angel is immaterial, it is also not in time, though it is also not strictly eternal.  It has an intermediate kind of existence which Scholastics called aeviternity.  Moreover, though there is a sense in which it exists in a necessary way, there is also a sense in which it is contingent.  It is necessary in the sense that once it exists, it cannot be made to go out of existence by anything in the created order, either in its own nature or in other created things.  But it is contingent in the sense that, like anything else in creation, it could not exist at all if it were not caused to exist by God, and it could be annihilated if God ceased conserving it in being.

No doubt Haugeland wouldn’t acknowledge the existence of angelic intellects.  He might also object to the metaphysical apparatus Aquinas deploys to make sense of immaterial substances, which includes notions such as the real distinction between essence and existence.  But that is not to the point.  What matters is that the key notions of hylomorphism in fact can be and have been systematically elaborated upon and supplemented in a way that allows it to accommodate more kinds of reality than Haugeland thinks it can.

But why would Haugeland suppose in the first place that there really are any entities that hylomorphism cannot capture?  The answer is that he offers a couple of specific examples that he thinks don’t fit comfortably into hylomorphism’s ontology.  He asks us, first, to consider a story and its relationship to the particular material entities that convey it (such as a collection of ink marks on the pages of a book).  Deploying the type-token distinction, Haugeland says that the story itself is a type and the different sets of ink marks that convey it (in different copies of the same book, say) are tokens of this type.  He claims that “in some sense, a story-type is composed or ‘made up’ of its tokens: it has its being in and through them – without them it wouldn’t exist at all” (p. 121).

But exactly what, Haugeland asks, is the relationship between these tokens and the type?  Should we think of it as a part-whole relationship?  That can’t be right, for that would make copies of a story parts of it in just the way that chapters in a story are parts of it, which they obviously are not.  Moreover, if there were only one copy of a story, the distinction between type and toke would collapse.  Should we think instead, asks Haugeland, of a story-type as a timeless kind?  But a story is temporal and contingent, coming into being at some point.  And timeless kinds are not like that.  Furthermore, any given particular story is not really itself a kind, but rather an instance of a kind – of the mystery story kind, or the romance kind, or whatever.

It’s not clear to me exactly how this is supposed to be a problem for hylomorphism.  For one thing, Haugeland’s suggestion that “a story-type is composed or ‘made up’ of its tokens” seems to me just wrong.  The word-type “cat” is not somehow made up of all its many tokens (all the particular individual instances of the word written in pencil, ink, or chalk, the various verbal utterances of it, etc.) as is evident from the fact that all of those could go out of existence, but the word “cat” would not thereby go out of existence.  Word-types are abstract objects of a sort, and story-types seem to be too.  But abstract objects are not “made up” of anything.

Perhaps Haugeland merely means to suggest that the hylomorphist must think of a story-type as made up of its tokens?  The idea here, perhaps, is that since hylomorphism takes things to be made up of form and matter, it must regard a story-type as a kind of form and its tokens as a kind of matter.  But in that case (Haugeland might then be objecting) this proposal is open to the difficulties he identifies.

But if this is what Haugeland means, the problem is that I don’t know of any hylomorphist who would conceive of story-types in this fashion.  Nor, as far as I know, would any hylomorphist say that everything, without qualification, is made up of form and matter.  The immediate application of the form-matter analysis is to physical substances, specifically.  A stone, a tree, or a dog is composed of form and matter – more precisely, of substantial form and prime matter – but there are lots of other things that are not.  I’ve already given one example, namely angelic intellects, which are immaterial substances.  But there are lots of other things that are not made up of form and matter.  For example, substances have attributes and bear relations to one another.  And attributes and relations are not made up of form and matter (even if the substances that bear the attributes and relations are made up of form and matter).

And the ontology of the typical Scholastic hylomorphist goes well beyond this.  For example, there are what Scholastics call “beings of reason” – things that exist as objects of thought.  Now, this is how to understand abstract objects.  They are natures, properties, patterns, and the like considered by the intellect in abstraction from the concrete circumstances in which they might be instantiated.  And this, I would say, is also how what Haugeland calls “story-types” should be understood.  They are “beings of reason,” not physical objects or even immaterial substances.  Hence it is a mistake to try in the first place to give them a form-matter analysis, so that the difficulties in doing so identified by Haugeland are moot.  Once again, Haugeland sees a difficulty for hylomorphism only because his conception of hylomorphist ontology is simplistic and neglects what later Aristotelians added to the picture.

The same can be said of Haugeland’s other example.  He asks us to consider a club devoted to some hobby, which has twelve members.  He says that “in some sense, a club is composed or ‘made up’ of its members” (p. 122).  But he also takes it to be obvious that “a club is identical neither to the set of its members nor to the fusion of their bodies.” (ibid.).  And we can readily agree, given that, for example, a club can persist despite a complete change in membership.  But then (Haugeland seems to think) it’s not clear what hylomorphism would say is the relationship between the club and its members.

The problem here is that, like many critics of hylomorphism, Haugeland neglects the distinction between a substantial form (which marks a true substance) and an accidental form (which is what mere aggregates and artifacts have).  The latter have looser identity conditions than the former, identity conditions that can depend on human custom or convention.  One mistake critics of hylomorphism make is to take an example of some aggregate or artifact, note that there is a difficulty with giving its identity conditions (which is not surprising given that these sorts of entities inherit all the messiness of human purposes), and then fallaciously conclude that the hylomorphist account of true substances is therefore problematic.  That seems to be what Haugeland is doing here.  A club is a kind of artifact, and thus inherits all the messiness that artefactual kinds tend to exhibit given the vagueness, contradictions, etc. of human purposes.  But this tells us nothing about the plausibility of the hylomorphist analysis of natural kinds (stone, water, lead, gold, trees, dogs, etc.).

In fairness to Haugeland, it should be noted that his primary target in the article in question is not hylomorphism itself, but a metaphysical position developed by Geoffrey Hellman and Frank Thompson which Haugeland thinks is in certain ways similar to hylomorphism.  Hence he criticizes hylomorphism as a way of indicating what he thinks is wrong with their position.  It may be that the deficiencies in his objections reflect an inadvertent assimilation of the one to the other – that what may (or may not) be good objections to the Hellman/Thompson view are simply non-starters when applied to hylomorphism as the Scholastic tradition developed it.

For a detailed exposition and defense of hylomorphism (or “hylemorphism,” a spelling which is less common but which I prefer), see my book Scholastic Metaphysics, especially chapter 3.

66 comments:

  1. For those new to this blog who want to know about hylomorphism:
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/hylomorphism

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  2. For example, there are what Scholastics call “beings of reason” – things that exist as objects of thought.

    Our dear philosophical enemies' cute "Natural Selection" would be a perfect example of that.

    They are “beings of reason,” not physical objects or even immaterial substances.

    Our philosophical enemies are right now experiencing a heart attack, because that's exactly what their beloved "Natural Selection" is. A being of reason with no causal powers of its own.

    Or a Santa-Claus substitute.

    "But... 150+ years of proof...prove you wrong... you deluded Bible thumper"... "go read a book" :-)

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  3. Professor Feser: a very interesting and clear article.

    You say this about abstract objects: "For example, there are what Scholastics call “beings of reason” – things that exist as objects of thought. Now, this is how to understand abstract objects. They are natures, properties, patterns, and the like considered by the intellect in abstraction from the concrete circumstances in which they might be instantiated."

    Do you have a view on the position on the existence of abstract objects held by van Inwagen, mathematical platonists, et al.?

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    1. Hey Ficino, just in case you'll still read it. I'll just be so bold and answer the question for him. The traditional Platonists, under which I count the Aristotelian and Scholastic tradition denies their aseity due to the deeper metaphysical commitments, meaning that their independence is denied for the same reasons you and I aren't existentially independent.

      If I may make the interference, the view that now gets called "Platonism" is hardly recognizable as the tradition it shares its name with. Both have a certain bifurcation in the ontology, but the tradition wouldn't recognize it as such. Ultimately the source for the abstract objects is the One, with the caveat that the One doesn't cognizises, at least according to Plotinus.

      Van Inwagen has these as completely independent, necessary beings. Sadly that view gets never spelled out. His best opportunity to do so, the article "God's Being and Ours" never makes any explanation of what necessary existence could be and how it explains anything. That's also why he's one of the most frustrating philosophers I know.

      The new kind of Platonism seems to have arisen due to Frege, I'm not aware of the ontological bifurcation being made so explicit prior to existence being reduced to quantification. And that makes a lot of sense in my opinion.

      Sadly, even if the Stanford philosophy article never actually gives accounts of the necessity of abstract objects. I have the feeling that this idea is just accepted, but never really investigated, and the only argument I can imagine would be an argument from conceivability. That is pretty much the point of Bob Hale, but I have to read his argument again.

      To summarize, the status of abstract objects in Platonism are kinds of substances, meaning that the universal itself is a really existent object. In Aristotelianism and Aristotelian Scholasticism, the universal is exemplified in the individual, and the universal itself is a divine idea. To put it theistically, I'd describe them as the categories in which concrete beings must exist in. I think Rasmussen and Pruss make such an argument in "From necessary abstracta to necessary Concreta".

      Modern Platonists reject that unification. I think it's mainly a way to naturalize properties as well as other abstract objects that are seen as indispensable for thinking.

      The root cause, or so I'd argue, would be the reduction of existence to quantifying over possible worlds. Other than that, an ontology working with a thick notion of existence, would demand of our modern Platonists an account for how these objects come to possess aseity.

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  4. Hi Ed. As a Thomist, you believe that angels are pure forms, but you also believe that they are concrete particulars that actually exist and are capable of moving material objects. You also believe that triangles are pure forms, but you don't believe that these pure forms are actual existents or that they are capable of moving material objects. Why not?

    You also believe that triangles are instantiated (albeit imperfectly) by the triangles we observe in the external world, but you don't believe that the forms of angels are capable of being instantiated by material objects. Why not?

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    1. Shoot, I can take this one.
      The angelic form is that of a sentient being, a person, with an intellect and will, along with any other ancillary powers.
      The triangular form is that of a simple shape that you can argue is mainly there to instantiate objects.

      An Angelic form is that of a pure spirit, not a shape. Therefore, angels don't have a particular material form, just like numbers don't. A number is not a form of a series of dots, or triangles, or any object; but derived from the particular quantity of them.

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    2. Vincent,
      What is the counterview you propose? Is it that triangles can move material objects? Is it that angels can't? Is it that angels are not concrete particulars? What is your view?

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    3. Might it have to do with the fact that angels are intelligences whereas triangles are not? In other words they have different natures and therefore different attributes, powers, and capacities.

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    4. If angels exist and can move material objects, why do we not see evidence of this in the world? I mean, arn"t some of them meant to be manevolent ( demons ), in which case they would presumabluy cause all manner of havoc, sometimes manifesting as physical events that we would be at a loss to explain? Or are they very few in number, not very active, very limited in how they can interact with the physical world, generally thwarted in their efforts by God or good angels or in some other convenient manner rendered undetectable?

      But then again, just maybe angels do not exist?

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    5. Demons are indeed restricted in their activities. Recall in the Gospels that Jesus cast a number of demons out of a man, and the demons asked that they might go into the nearby pigs rather than be sent straight to Hell. Jesus then gave permission and they went into the pigs who proceeded to stampede and drown themselves. It is also said in scripture that God will not allow people to be temped beyond their strength, so the unseen activities of demons are also restricted.
      We can also see in scripture that good angles are also active in the world. The entire book of Tobias shows the care that the angles have of us. Our guardian angles are active in helping us with God's grace to counteract the temptations of the demons, as well as caring for us physically. Even Satan testifies to this when he quotes scripture in his second temptation of Christ; saying, "Cast Thyself down. Is it not written that He hath given His angels charge over Thee, lest Thy dash Thy foot against a stone."

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    6. Vincent, I am fairly certain that it is incorrect to say that angels
      "are" forms, according to thomistic metaphysics. Dr. Feser doesn't use that language in this post, he says angels "have" forms.

      It seems to me that the reason why angelic forma cannot be instantiated in material objects is because they are the wrong kind of thing to be instantiated that way. Angelic forms are substantiated in individual angels.

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    7. OK then. What about the form of humanity? You can't say that it lacks intelligence. So why can't it act on bodies?

      Some people have suggested that Thomists don't really believe that angels are pure forms, but if (as they claim) humans are composites of matter and form, then angels, lacking matter, have to be pure forms. Which brings us back to our original question: why can some pure forms act on bodies while others can't? Intelligence can't be the reason, so what is it? And what is it about the form of humanity that makes it materially instantiable as a human being, while the form of an angel is not?

      Angels were commonly known in the Middle Ages as intelligences. If each angel is of a different species, as Thomists claim, then an angel is simply intelligence of a certain kind I put it to you that it makes no more sense to speak of "intelligence" acting on a body than it does to speak of walking or singing acting on a body.

      In short: it makes no sense to speak of angels as pure forms if they're agents. They must contain matter of some sort, as most medieval philosophers believed (contrary to Aquinas). Cheers

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    8. @ Vincent Torley:

      'Angel' = form + act of existence.

      Each individual angel is a different species. And a substance.

      Prof. Feser has explained it thousands of times. You're going to make him go mad.

      Triangles are not substances. And only substances have causal powers.

      Triangles are like 'Natural Selection', they do NO-thing. Only materialists crazy in the head believe they do.

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    9. Angels were commonly known in the Middle Ages as intelligences. If each angel is of a different species, as Thomists claim, then an angel is simply intelligence of a certain kind I put it to you that it makes no more sense to speak of "intelligence" acting on a body than it does to speak of walking or singing acting on a body.

      You remind me of the (intentionally) ridiculous idea Doug Adams put in the Hitchhiker's Guide: a superintelligent shade of the color blue. By that he intended that there was one particular shade of blue, a very specific shade, which (a) was superintelligent, and (b) a substantial being - precisely BY being that shade. It was, of course, ridiculous because color is an aspect of a being, no particular color can, by its very shade, constitute substantial being. Nor can a color be intelligent in virtue of its color. He succeeded in being truly ridiculous.

      Angels are not "intelligence" simply speaking. They are distinct intelligent subsistences: an intelligent essence with existence. And they differ from each other in their intelligent essences, having specific differences, as much as sheep and bears and leopards differ in their being kinds of animals.

      Which brings us back to our original question: why can some pure forms act on bodies while others can't?

      Angels are purely intellectual subsistences, not "pure form". That they have no matter is besides the fact that they are distinct, existing subsistences. They (at least some of them) can "act on matter" because that belongs to the kind of their essences. It is entirely possible that God may have made SOME kinds of angels whose powers do not encompass a power to "act on material being" as one aspect of their essence, but nothing about that precludes that some angels have such powers as part of their essences, implied under their specific differences. "To act on matter" is not special to material forms. It would be true that "to 'act on' matter in the way that material form imposes upon matter is special to material form - i.e. by informing the matter TO BE of a certain kind. But there are other ways to act on matter besides being its form.

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    10. Thanks for the reply, Vincent. For what it's worth, I am not Catholic but I find much of Thomistic philosophy convincing. The discussion of angels in Aquinas I find less convincing, but I have not found any philosophical treatment of angels that was convincing to me. The subject is going to be more speculative than most other topics. Where is there a good source of most ancient and medieval theologians other than Aquinas arguing that angels are a composite of matter and form?

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    11. Sorry UncommonDescent, but it's no use saying that angels are forms that exist, while triangles are forms that don't, because that only invites the further question: why? Could God make the form of a triangle exist? If not, then that's a pretty fundamental difference between angels and triangles, and they really shouldn't be lumped in the same category (forms). And what about the form of humanity? What is it about the form of humanity that makes it capable of being instantiated in matter, while the form of an angel is not?

      Finally, if you're gong to say that an angel is form plus existence, the you'll have to say that man is tripartite: matter plus form plus existence: a very awkward ontology. It's hard enough convincing most people that they have two metaphysical parts, let alone three. Aristotle, for one, would be scratching his head in perplexity.

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    12. Hi UncommonDescent. To say that an angel is form plus existence while a triangle is just a form invites the obvious question: could God confer existence on the form of a triangle? If not, why not? Likewise, to say that humanity is a form instantiated in matter, while the form of an angel is not, invites the obvious question: could God instantiate the form of an angel in matter? If not, why not?

      If Thomists regard angels as bipartite )form plus existence), then they have to regard man is tripartite (prime matter plus form plus existence). Matter then becomes a receptacle of a receptacle for existence.

      Finally, given that prime matter isn't concrete, the form of humanity isn't concrete and existence isn't concrete, how do Thomists account for the fact that a combination of all three is somehow magically concrete? Cheers.

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    13. Hi Tim. Re ancient and medieval theologians who taught that angels are composites of matter and form, I'd recommend Nathan Jacobs' article, "Are created spirits composed of matter and form? A defense of pneumatic hylomorphism" in Philosophies Christi vol.14, no.1, 2012. It's quite illuminating.

      Hi Anonymous. Aquinas declares in SCG II.55 para. 7 that "subsistent intelligences are pure subsistent forms." (CCEL translation) That's straight out of the horse's mouth. If you do a Google search on Aquinas angels and "pure forms" you'll find lots of Thomists who call angels pure forms, including Aquinas online.com.

      Re your suggestion that some angels can move bodies because this power is part of their essence as intellectual agents, I have to say that explanation won't work. First, bodies can't be moved by angels unless they have the spiritual property of being responsive to an angel's will, but bodies lack such properties by definition. God can move bodies only because He is their Author. Angels aren't authors of bodies. Second, it makes no sense to say that thinking alone can make e body move. That's magic. Cheers.

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    14. @ Vincent Torley:

      And what is it about the form of humanity that makes it materially instantiable as a human being, while the form of an angel is not?

      A human being is a rational animal. And animals have material bodies.

      An angel is not an animal.

      In short: it makes no sense to speak of angels as pure forms if they're agents. They must contain matter of some sort

      Why?

      Reply to Objection 3. The power of an angel is not so limited as is the power of the soul. Hence the motive power of the soul is limited to the body united to it, which is vivified by it, and by which it can move other things. But an angel's power is not limited to any body; hence it can move locally bodies not joined to it.

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    15. @Vincent Torley:

      ... could God confer existence on the form of a triangle?

      Any triangle that exists has existence. A triangle you draw is a triangle that exists.

      By sustaining all of Creation, he confers existence on triangles (and on everything).

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    16. Vincent,

      Finally, given that prime matter isn't concrete, the form of humanity isn't concrete and existence isn't concrete, how do Thomists account for the fact that a combination of all three is somehow magically concrete?

      Human individuals are concrete. 'Prime matter', 'the form of humanity' and 'existence' are mental abstractions that apply to the individual. They are real but not separable. (Or they are only 'separable' via an abstractive process).

      The 'existence' or 'permanence in being' can only be granted by 'Being Itself'/ God.

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    17. Second, it makes no sense to say that thinking alone can make a body move.

      Then welcome with open arms Darwinian materialism and all their (nefarious) consequences. We are thinking 'epiphenomena'/'meat robots'/'evolutionary machines' with no free will or moral responsibility.

      It's Thomism vs. materialism (or Kastrup's idealism or panpsychism) vs. pure assertions of us 'having free will' without being capable of explaining how.

      Egnor knows that the answer is St. Thomas.

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  5. My brother, a poet, thinks patterns are crucially important to how, what, and when we think about things. I agree with that notion. A good friend, quasi-retired from academia, pointed out to me William James' critique of the term, consciousness: its' lack of specificity, as a noun, trying to describe a fluid, ever-changing process. By those lights, my attempt to re-characterize the chameleon as responsive consciousness fails. But, does it? The little poster, from last millennium was quaint. It said there are three kinds of people: those who make things happen; those who watch things happen; and, those who WONDER what happened. My position is responsively conscious people make things happen. It all goes south from there. So, anyone can argue semantics, context and meaning. Philosophy does this, everyday. As well it should. Thanks, Dr. Feser.

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  6. Where do colors come from? Does red exist independently of our senses?

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    1. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/may/08/the-big-idea-why-colour-is-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder#:~:text=Most%20experts%20now%20agree%20that,and%20so%20would%20everything%20else.

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    2. @Anonymous:

      Does red exist independently of our senses?


      Yes, it does. If it didn't (if it were not in act), it could not possibly impact our sense organs. The accidental form of 'red' is real.

      Locke was wrong.

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    3. @Anonymous

      If redness did not exist independently from our senses, then red would subsist as a purely phenomenological property, and consequently everyone would have different knowledge of the color red. Nobody could point to a red object and successfully communicate its color.

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    4. HK,
      "and consequently everyone would have different knowledge of the color red."
      Everyone does have their own personal knowledge of red.

      "red would subsist as a purely phenomenological property,"
      Red is a phenomena resulting from particular wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation entering the eye, the way that light is focused and strikes the retina, the responses of cells in the retina, optic nerve, and brain.

      The similarity, or dissimilarity, of the phenomena from individual to individual is a consequence of the similarity or dissimilarity in the physical structures of those process elements.

      It turns out that most human beings have highly similar optic systems, so we tend to have similar optical experiences.

      But, not always. There are variations in color sensitivity. In extreme cases some people only see in shades of gray. Other species have other optic systems with other sorts of color receptors, so we can only guess what their experience of color is like to them.

      "Nobody could point to a red object and successfully communicate its color."
      For a color blind person that is true, so your hypothesis is falsified.

      Red does not exist independent of our senses.

      Particular wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation exist independent of our sense.

      Most people can successfully communicate about red because most people have highly similar structures in their optic systems so most people experience those particular wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation in highly similar ways.

      There are no self contradictions in materialism, zero, none whatsoever.

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    5. @Stardusty:

      Everyone does have their own personal knowledge of red.

      And since it's personal, you can't have knowledge of them (unless you were able to perceive other people's qualia via a naturalist miracle).

      Red is a phenomena resulting from particular wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation entering the eye, the way that light is focused and strikes the retina, the responses of cells in the retina, optic nerve, and brain

      Lovely. Then we're trapped into representationalism. We can only perceive internal neuronal images, not external reality. And now we can't even be sure that we have a brain.

      The similarity, or dissimilarity, of the phenomena from individual to individual is a consequence of the similarity or dissimilarity in the physical structures of those process elements.

      A 'similarity' that can't be assessed, because each of us is trapped behind his/her neuronal imagery.

      It turns out that most human beings have highly similar optic systems, so we tend to have similar optical experiences.

      But it's the brain what processes visual information, Starkooky. Not the eyes themselves.

      Red does not exist independent of our senses

      So if I close my eyes, 'red' disappears from the world. And if I re-open them, then it magically 'reappears' again. We people are magicians.

      Most people can successfully communicate about red because most people have highly similar structures in their optic systems so most people experience those particular wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation in highly similar ways.

      Light doesn't become red when it transmits 'redness'. So the materialist account of vision is bunk. Photons don't become 'red'.

      There are no self contradictions in materialism, zero, none whatsoever.

      Materialism is self-refuting, and when following the chain of perception, it collapses into subjective idealism.

      Sorry, pastor.

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  7. In Leibniz's thought, he had a notion of monads that was very similar to St. Thomas Aquinas's chain of being. Inanimate objects were sleeping monads, animals were dreaming monads, human beings are waking monads; God is the fully conscious monad.

    Where would plant beings and angelic beings fit in Leibniz's monadology?

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  8. For Anonymous 8/14 : This is the paradox of science. Since Descartes and others ( Newton) tossed out the final, and formal cause to focus on the easier and more profitable efficient and material cause, all our primary sense experiences have been moved to our brain. They are now simply products of our brain states. Ironically, most scientists never think about this, if asked they will say a color is a particular wavelength or frequency of light. Forgetting that that they did not answer the question. While, it is true that there is a correspondence to wavelength and color, the experience of color is something evolution has provided for us. But, color is not material nor energy, so this is not an explanation. This works for all senses. I worked for a pharmaceutical company in discovery research, where we had an active program on pain medication. While we knew a great deal how pain receptors and nerves worked (very interesting and exceedingly complex) the young researcher was flummoxed about what pain really was. This came out in a formal presentation, and was quickly dispensed with, swept on the rug. The same relationships and rug sweeping is found with smell, taste and hearing. We know how certain molecules interact with receptors in our nasal passages producing pleasant aromas, yet the enantiomer of that molecule produces a bitter smell or taste. Again these sense “experiences” are thought to be found exclusively in our brain. But if all of theses sense experiences are in our brain how can we be sure of what we are observing is a true part of reality? That is, how can we know we are describing the world as it is? The point is, as Feser has taught, science is truly only a method that describes one aspect of the world. It does not describe all of reality. My eyes were opened when I discovered Aquinas thanks to Feser. Most scientists know nothing of philosophy, which ironically is the foundation science rests upon.

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    1. @Tim Cushing:

      Most scientists know nothing of philosophy, which ironically is the foundation science rests upon.

      They don't know philosophy formally, but they have an instinctive apprehension of it. We all need to structure the world according to certain mental habits (or else it would be un-intelligible).

      The sad part is that the vast majority of scientists today have been blinded by materialism. And, in turn, they have blinded the rest of society, wrecking havock on it.

      The problem is very serious.

      And, of course, all those Ph. D being handed at each and every University are not for nothing. Philosophy is not just the bedrock of science, but of society as a whole.

      We live in times of high technological development, but of extreme ignorance. Scientism/ materialism is a tumor that needs to be extirpated.

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    2. I think it used to harder to get a Ph.D. in philosophy than it is now. You can read doctoral dissertations free online. I am not particularly impressed by a lot of what I have read. And no, I don't have a Ph.D. myself.

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  9. It is clear to me that this kind of criticism of hyleomorphism comes out from the incapacity of the thinker to distinguish between the notion of "forma" and the one of "figura", inasmuch "the figura" is already a first degree of instantiation of the "forma" and, henceforth, not a "substantia" which a "forma" always is. The consequence of this confusion is that they treat the notion of "forma" as if it were "figura" and cannot understand the AT discourse as such. A concept is a "forma" and is identical to the "substantia" it refers to and to the aeviternal reality created my God: of corse this is absolutely not the same as the possible " figurae" it can assume or the corresponding actualised beings they refer to.

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    1. Your profile pic looks like a cross between Carl Jung and Paul Krugman. It distracts me! :)

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  10. WCB

    "If angels exist and can move material objects, why do we not see evidence of this in the world?"
    - Anonymous

    Can an angel operate a computer keyboard? Perhaps a demon can? If they can, why don't they?

    WCB

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    1. WCB
      You really have a knack for asking the tough questions no one can answer. You need to have your own blog so you can widely disemminate your wisdom.

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    2. @WCB:

      Can an angel operate a computer keyboard? Perhaps a demon can? If they can, why don't they?

      If Hume was right, all events we observe are 'loose and separate'. Maybe angels are what unite them? Maybe each time we operate a computer an invisible angel makes us hallucinate that we are hitting the keyboard when the truth is that it's really the angel he who operates it?

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    3. Uncommon at 4.04PM.

      You are not a Humean but a Thomist, so why not just answer WCB's question from that that perspective instead of obfuscating?

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    4. Not so fast, my Anonymous admirer:

      You are not a Humean

      Of course I am not, Hume was a crank and so are his modern followers.

      To ask for 'evidence', first it would be necessary to be sure that we humans are capable of grasping said 'evidence'.

      If we can't differentiate between events caused by angels and events not caused by then, then the proposal is moot. If causation is suspect, then the question doesn't even make sense.

      Don't you agree, Anonymous?

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  11. Can an angel operate a computer keyboard? Perhaps a demon can? If they can, why don't they?


    If you start with the hypothesis that maybe angels exist (rather than an assumption that you can't entertain their existence until science proves they exist), you will immediately run into a problem with how to establish what they can and cannot do. Humans are built to learn first from our senses, and then intellect jumps in and draws out truths that can be derived from the material provided by the senses. But the senses are, rather obviously, seated in physical things and their actions. The senses cannot directly ascertain non-corporeal things.

    It is not for nothing that most (all?) of what we have on angels (whether you call it "knowledge" or "myth" or "faith-based belief") we have on the basis of a revelation. If one repudiates revelation a priori, then that's going to eliminate accepting claims - even as hypotheses - about angels derived from revelation. It's only if you are going to allow revelation into the discussion that we are going to even be able to propose any sensible answers.

    And yes, there are sensible answers possible. The simplest is something that I think is consistent with what St. Augustine said, also about angels (the fallen ones, in this case): God imposes on angels a general constraint that they normally not invisibly interfere with natural causes. God can lift that broad constraint for special cases, and does, just as he lifts it for miracles. But miracles by their nature must be out-of-the-ordinary. God intends that man wisely and prudently order his life, and this requires that man learn "how the world works", and this in turn implies God (and the angels) allowing the world to work according to natural causes nearly all of the time. If they (invisibly, beyond our ability to detect) constantly interfered with natural causes, then we would not be able to deduce natural causal principles, nor a natural order in the activities of things. And that would be contrary to man learning prudence and directing himself to the good as grasped under the natural light of reason.

    Hence God mostly prevents the fallen angels from imparting to natural objects (undetectably) odd motions of whatever sorts. He seemingly allows it in odd cases, especially in a few cases where humans expressly invoke the demons, (but there it seems unlikely that those very humans would not be fooled into thinking it was a natural event). But in rare cases, also, it seems possible that God allows angels (and demons) to act upon corporeal nature even without explicit call by men. St. Augustine says that (at least in some cases) idol worship originated in a demon interacting with humans so as to foment a false belief.

    In any case, insofar as revelation gives us the information: angels in Scripture clearly do manipulate corporeal things, and so it seems that they can in principle.

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  13. "No doubt Haugeland wouldn’t acknowledge the existence of angelic intellects."
    Why would anybody?

    Do you acknowledge that you will go flying off to planet Kolob when you die?
    Do you acknowledge that DC-8 rocket ships dropped people and atom bombs so that those souls now inhabit your body?
    Do you acknowledge that if you kill yourself your soul will go flying off to live on a passing comet?

    Or do you consider people who assert such things to be alternatively, frauds, crackpots, or delusional?

    "The word-type “cat” is not somehow made up of all its many tokens (all the particular individual instances of the word written in pencil, ink, or chalk, the various verbal utterances of it, etc.) as is evident from the fact that all of those could go out of existence, but the word “cat” would not thereby go out of existence. "
    False. If all instances of "cat" as a set of material symbols and all instances of verbal utterances of "cat" including all instances of English language mental formulations of the word "cat" went out of existence then the word "cat" would go out of existence.

    "Cat" as an English word is not floating around in space someplace waiting for us to pluck it out and make use of it. The English word "cat" is a convention of English speaking human beings, such that if all representations of "cat" go out of existence then there will be no such English word as "cat".


    "Word-types are abstract objects of a sort, and story-types seem to be too. But abstract objects are not “made up” of anything."
    Right, abstract objects do not exist, they are identifiable processes of material.

    "I’ve already given one example, namely angelic intellects, which are immaterial substances."
    Reification of ghost stories is not a respectable position. I find it somewhat shocking that an otherwise highly intelligent and educated individual would do so.

    "They are “beings of reason,” not physical objects or even immaterial substances."
    Right, that is what angels, gods, and demons are. Just in your thoughts. Just the particles of your brain in motion.

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    1. Feser and his followers are compelled to believe in angels because scripture and the RCC say they exist. A theoretical apparatus has therefore been built up to rationalise this bizarre belief , though it has no empirical support at all. Feser et al should be ashamed of themselves for sacrificing their intellects in this way. Ditto for many other things they acknowledge because they HAVE TO, such as the existance of a deceased virgin without a body who mediates between humans and a disembodied God with three centres of conciousness, even though this God is omniscient.

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    2. @Anonymous, if you're going to criticize Feser, at least get his views right. Since Feser has never gone by the name "James White," don't conflate White's views with Feser's. Feser has never advised "three centers of consciousness" in God.

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    3. Yes, anon, it does seem that Dr. Feser is in the position of other Christians who accept a set of doctrines based on ancient texts that ascribe a large number of properties to their speculated god.

      The simple fact is that those properties are, in many respects, mutually exclusive, so the apologist is painted into an impossible position, trying to make a comprehensively coherent set of arguments for an intrinsically self contradictory set of assertions.

      Below I return to what I think is, however, a genuinely interesting and unsolved subject, the true nature of fundamental reality.

      The simple fact is that nobody knows what material actually IS, at base. We can say, perhaps, everything is fields and manifestations of fields, but then, what precisely IS a field?

      We can say that, perhaps, gravity is not really a force, but rather a natural consequence of the curvature of spacetime. OK, but what IS it that is curved, exactly? And curved in what sense, if not in 2 dimensions, then somehow a sort of density gradient? Fine, but a density gradient of WHAT exactly?

      In hylomorphism I think there is at least one fundamental error, the notion that essence and existence are, ultimately, separable. There is also the notion of a linear hierarchical causal series per se, which must terminate in something perfectly simple.

      That leads to its own set of incoherent assertions, that god acts to do X now and Y later but is not in time yet acts in a time sequence.

      And that god is outside of space and has no spatial extent yet is omnipresent throughout all space and acts differently in different places all while having no spatial extent.

      Key missing conceptual elements in Thomism are mutuality and simultaneous co-dependence by necessity.

      At base all change is mutual, never hierarchical and linear, so there is no call for an unmoved mover, because at base materials move each other.

      At base essence and existence are inseparable. There is no such thing as anything existent that has no properties. There is no such thing as properties apart from existent material.

      Thus, hylomorphism at least addresses an interesting and as yet undecided question, the true nature of the underlying reality.

      But hylomorphism is logically invalid by false dichotomy, neglecting a clear case, that of mutuality and simultaneous co-dependence by necessity.

      There is no call for the incoherent assertion of a perfectly simple being at base, because at base the existential state of affairs of the cosmos is one of mutuality and simultaneous co-dependence by necessity.

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    4. @StardustyPsyche:

      Why would anybody?

      Why not? Materialism is self-refuting, so angels are perfectly fine. 'Particles in motion' is fine as a joke, but not as a serious philosophy. Especially since according to your superstition, 'motion' is an 'illusion' in itself. So what we have are 'particles that are hallucinated as being in motion'. Not very promising.

      That's how stupid your side looks. The side that can no longer offer a definition of what a 'woman' is, while you defend their 'sacrosanct right' to disintegrate their progeny (contrary to Darwin's postulates). Or the side of 'reason'.

      The English word "cat" is a convention of English speaking human beings, such that if all representations of "cat" go out of existence then there will be no such English word as "cat".

      But the physical referrent "cat" will keep existing. Words don't create reality, they just signal it.

      Right, abstract objects do not exist, they are identifiable processes of material.

      Abstract objects exist as objects of the intellect.

      Reification of ghost stories is not a respectable position.

      Coming from the side that is trapped inside a 'theater of illusions' with no contact with extra-mental reality. Cute as a joke.

      Just the particles of your brain in motion.

      Lovely. If I 'have' a brain, then 'I' am NOT my brain. The relationship predicated is not one of identity. Thanks for refuting your materialism, Stardusty. I'm going to give you one star.

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    5. @Anonymous:

      though it has no empirical support at all.

      Please logician, do tell us: if an angel is defined as an 'immaterial' substance, how could we devise an 'empirical' test to support its existence?

      Now you can start to squeeze your neurons. But don't press too hard.

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    6. Uncommon at 4.40PM

      'Empirical support' for the existance of angels is not necessarily the same thing as devising an empirical test for them dumbo.

      You incoherently believe that angels are immaterial but can interact with the physical world. Further, many are malevolent, so would be expected to interact with it in malevolent ways which would not conform to the natural order of things. It is perfectly reasonable to ask why we do not see this other than in unverifiable claims from scripture or maybe the odd individual.

      As usual, you twist and misrepresent what has been said, something that seems to be a hobby of yours in your critiques of the ever impressive SrarDusty.

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    7. @Anonymous:

      'Empirical support' for the existance of angels is not necessarily the same thing as devising an empirical test for them dumbo.

      Non-sense. How can you have empirical support without a test?

      You incoherently believe that angels are immaterial but can interact with the physical world.

      There's no incoherence. The Laws of Physics are immaterial and they can interact with the physical world. According to Hawkings and Mlodinow, the immaterial 'Laws of Physics' created the Universe.

      As usual, you twist and misrepresent what has been said, something that seems to be a hobby of yours in your critiques of the ever impressive SrarDusty.

      If you believe that "SrarDusty's" intellectual crap is of any value, then I feel sorry for you.

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  14. WCB

    Do angels have an intellect? What is that intellect? Are some angels morons and a few geniuses? Maybe angels are all somewhat dimwitted. What do angels all day long? How can we know? Why take any non-demonstratable claim from anybody about the nature of angels seriously. Al are different species? Really?

    WCB

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    1. @WCB:

      Angels don't 'have' an intellect. They 'are' intellects.
      Maybe you and Stardusty should take a course in logic? 2x1 is always cheaper.

      Al are different species? Really?

      Really. The LNC is true, WCB.

      Maybe angels are all somewhat dimwitted

      Or maybe it's materialists who exemplify 'dimwitted-ness' to a tee. Could it be, WCB?

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  15. Haugeland-"all and only material entities are particular, temporal concreta – everything else is an abstract, eternal kind. Moreover, there is only one possible relation between the two sides: inhesion (instantiation…). And, finally, the modes of composition are asymmetrical: you can go horizontally or up, but not down."

    Haugeland imagines even more imaginary separable and reified aggregates then hylomorphism.

    Essence and existence are not separable.

    We never observe existence without essence.
    We never observe essence without existence.

    Essence and existence are co-joined mutually and simultaneously co-dependent aspects of all real substances by necessity.

    The abstracted separation of essence and existence is a human psychological process, likely arising from the common desire by humans to isolate, simplify, and make sequential aspects of observed reality in an attempt to abstractly explain observed reality.

    This human psychological tendency leads to incoherent assertions such as:
    Pure existence.
    Existence itself.
    A being who's essence is its existence.
    A being that sustains all else in existence, lest existing material spontaneously change itself from existing to not existing.

    Mutuality and simultaneous co-dependence is the observed reality of the nature of material, yet this apparent state of affairs is entirely neglected in Aristotelian Thomistic concepts including hylomorphism.

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    1. David Hume must be rolling in his grave at the inductive leap between "mutual and simultaneous co-dependence is the observed reality of the nature of material" and "essence and existence are co-joined mutually and simultaneously co-dependent aspects of all real substances by necessity."

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    2. WCB

      Beware the woo woo bird, and shun the frumious blatherskite.

      WCB

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    3. "David Hume must be rolling in his grave"
      Perhaps, but if so, does anybody care?

      "mutual and simultaneous co-dependence is the observed reality of the nature of material" and "essence and existence are co-joined mutually"
      Indeed, that is the state of affairs we observe.
      We never observe existence without essence.
      We never observe essence without existence.

      What would those conditions even mean?
      How could a thing exist yet have no properties at all? Makes no sense.

      And what sense would it make to assert properties without anything that the properties are of?

      "simultaneously co-dependent aspects of all real substances by necessity."
      Fair enough. My point was not to prove that this state of affairs is necessary, rather, that it seems axiomatically to be the case.

      No counter examples exist that have been observed.

      The alternatives make no sense.

      Yet, somehow this clear and starkly obvious state of affairs is ignored as that which is necessary, on Thomism, and that which is never observed and makes no sense is what is asserted to be the necessary state of affairs.

      Thomism is thus a strange inversion of logic.

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    4. @Stardusty

      Essence and existence are not separable.


      The abstracted separation of essence and existence is a human psychological process

      Oh dude, then they are separable after all. Maybe your WCB 'logician' pal could lend you a hand...

      Maybe.

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    5. @Stardusty Kooky:

      Perhaps, but if so, does anybody care?

      Hume was an anti-essentialist and he distrusted induction. He would have cared.

      You kook.

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    6. WCB

      Induction works. If one raises the skeptic's bar high enough, one can deny any aspect of reality. But that does not solve the ultra skeptic's dilemma, induction works, and what does that say about extreme skepticism?

      As David Hume said, "Sometimes you have to throw your hands up and go play cards with your friends."

      Hume's extreme skepicism about cause and effect means that if we take him seriously about that, all theology also becomes meaningless. So much for telEology.

      WCB

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    7. WCB:

      Hume's skepticism was not 'extreme'. It was the logical outcome of the denial of the reality of 'form'. Which is what you materialists do (although in the end you end up smuggling the form either way, contradicting your premises).

      If there are no forms, then science becomes meaningless. The same science that you use to support your atheism.

      Induction without universals (forms) is incoherent.

      'Induction' means to infer from the particular to the universal. But if universals are not 'real', then induction just becomes a futile enterprise.

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  16. WHEW! And I am only a lowly agnostic. Credit to the professor: controversy stirs popularity! Not sure one could stack angels on the head of a pin. They are, antes todos, ephemeral. But, wait: the stacking, in view of ephemerality, would be, uh, infinite. D'autrement, infinity is neither destination, or objective. You can't get there from here. There is no *there*, there...

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  17. Hi, I'm Bill McEnaney, I posted "anonymously" because something usually goes wrong when I try to post with my name and a URL.

    Let me recommend a podcast where Adam Blair, a Catholic demonologist, described a time when he wrestled indirectly with a demon who possessed a woman.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm0fRGilQsE

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  18. Maybe materialism isn't contradictory. But here's why it seems demonstrably false.

    Suppose that materialism and determinism are true and that each mental event consists of one or more deterministic brain events. Then you think deterministically when you reason, form a belief, confirm a theory, or disconfirm it.

    Since deterministic events will force you to believe what you believe, they'll do that, even if your beliefs are false. You might reply that with the scientific method, you can confirm or disconfirm a theory. But that whether you confirm or disconfirm it, you'll reason deterministically. So you'll have no way to tell the difference between a true theory and a false one.

    You'll be like someone who stayed trapped in the Starship Enterprise's holodeck, where the computer determines everything perceive or think you perceive. The computer will even convince you that you've left the holodeck when you're still on it.

    You see the point. If what I'm saying is true, materialism and determinism make rational thought impossible.

    On the other hand, if people have immortal souls to counteract some deterministic events, rational thought would still be possible, even if some natural events are deterministic.

    Bill

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    1. @Bill:

      If what I'm saying is true, materialism and determinism make rational thought impossible.

      That was Lewis's point and why he developed the 'Argument From Reason' (in his book Miracles).

      Materialism + determinism are incompatible with reason. And materialist appeals to 'computers' are irrelevant, because computers have derived intentionality (derived from ourselves). They 'reason' following our patterns of reason.

      Your observation is correct: a determined machine can be forced to see as 'true' what in reality is 'false'. So both true and falsity become irrelevant and reason is rendered useless. And appeals to science won't help either.

      But if you posit a soul and have separate proof that it has been created by a God that could not entertain falsity even in principle, then reason can be restored.

      A much needed return to sanity.

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  19. Here's my last video about demons, one where Mr. Bertuzzi interviews a psychiatrist.

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  20. Sorry, here's the video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH3indTWQDo

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