Wednesday, September 20, 2023

The Death Penalty and Genesis 9:6: A Reply to Mastnjak (Guest article by Timothy Finlay)

Genesis 9:6 famously states: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image” (RSV). This has traditionally been understood by Jews and Christians alike as sanctioning capital punishment. In a recent article at Church Life Journal, Nathan Mastnjak has argued on grammatical grounds for an alternative reading of the passage, on which it does not support the death penalty. What follows is a guest article replying to Mastnjak by Timothy Finlay, who is Professor of Biblical Studies at Azusa Pacific University and a member of the National Association of Professors of Hebrew.

In his article, Nathan Mastnjak writes, “The translation ‘by a human shall that person’s blood be shed’ is not strictly impossible, but given the norms of Classical Hebrew grammar, it should be viewed as prima facie unlikely especially since there is a much more plausible translation that is contextually appropriate and grammatically mundane.” This has it completely backward. It is Mastnjak’s claim that the ב in Genesis 9:6 be construed as expressing price or exchange that, while not strictly impossible, flies in the face of Hebrew lexicons and grammars – in contrast to the standard translations (both Jewish and Christian) which are contextually and canonically appropriate and grammatically mundane.

Mastnjak rightly examines both grammatical issues about the specific phrase translated in the NRSV as “by a human shall that person’s blood be shed” (Gen 9:6) and contextual issues arising from its literary connection. Unfortunately, both aspects of his argument are seriously flawed and completely ignore the mountain of scholarship, Jewish and Christian, medieval and modern, which support the traditional translations. The implications of the traditional translations, as Mastnjak correctly diagnoses, install “the death penalty as a common principle of the Natural Law and thus would make it be applicable and theoretically usable by all human societies.” This includes recent Catholic scholarship that explicitly supports Pope Francis in his desire to abolish the death penalty but concedes that the God who executed retribution for violence in the flood delegated in Genesis 9:6 this power to humans created in the image of God. And it goes at least as far back as the Tosefta in the late second century. The Tosefta regards the establishing of human courts of justice to administer the death penalty as part of the Noahic code in Genesis 9.

Mastnjak’s central grammatical points are that “Of the hundreds of passive verbs in the Hebrew Bible, the grammarians can find only a handful of possible cases where the agent of a passive verb is explicitly expressed” and that a frequent usage of the Hebrew preposition ב is “to express price or exchange.” One problem for Mastnjak is that major lexicons and grammars with entries on the Hebrew preposition ב are well aware of both these facts and prefer to render the ב in Genesis 9:6 not as a ב pretii expressing price or exchange but as indicating that humans are involved as the instrument through which murderers will be executed. These lexicons and grammars include GKC (the grammar by Gesenius-Kautzsch-Cowley), BDB (the lexicon by Brown-Driver-Briggs), BHRG (the reference grammar by van der Merwe-Naudé-Kroeze), IBHS and HSTE (the syntax grammars by Waltke-O’Connor and by Davidson repectively) and DCH (Dictionary of Classical Hebrew, edited by David Clines, which does use a “perhaps” for Genesis 9:6 as an example of the ב pretii but includes it straightforwardly as an example of ב of agent). Other than a second option “perhaps” in DCH, the major grammars and lexicons discussing the relevant ב in Genesis 9:6 do not support Mastnjak’s contention.

Another problem for Mastnjak is that the construction need not be an agent of a passive verb for Genesis 9:6 to establish the death penalty for murder as a standard judicial principle. Genesis 21:12, another construction with a passive and a ב plus noun segment with human semantics, is plausibly translated “it is through Isaac that offspring will be named for you.” Although Isaac is not the direct agent here, without Isaac’s involvement the people of Israel as Abraham’s quintessential offspring would not have existed. Such a usage applied to Genesis 9:6 would have emphasized humans not as the agents of execution but that it is through humans sentencing the murderer that the murderer’s blood would be shed. This would still entail an establishment of capital punishment.

And this is precisely how two of the major targums (early Aramaic translations, which often engage in elaboration) translate the verse. Targum Onqelos renders the clause, “He who sheds the blood of a human before witnesses, through sentence of the judges shall his blood be shed.” More extensive legal codes in Torah prescribe the presence of two or three witnesses as a necessary condition for a murderer to be executed. Targum Onqelos clarifies that Genesis 9:6 does not override this condition. Targum Pseudo-Jonathan further expands: “Whoever sheds the blood of a human in the presence of witnesses, the judges shall condemn him to death, but whoever sheds it without witnesses, the Lord of the world will take revenge of him on the day of great judgment.” Targum Pseudo-Jonathan also provides a rebuttal to Mastnjak’s second argument – that the context of the preceding verse, Genesis 9:5, where God requires an accounting for human blood shed by animals or humans, precludes capital punishment in Genesis 9:6. Pseudo-Jonathan clearly includes the context of Genesis 9:5 in its understanding of the following verse; God authorizes capital punishment in circumstances of due legal process where the evidence is clear but will personally revenge the murder victim otherwise.

The third problem for Mastnjak on the grammatical side is that the two resources he does cite do more to hurt his position than to help him. His first resource is a paragraph in a four page book review of a Hebrew grammar, not the type of source one would expect to carry the weight of refuting over two millennia of Jewish and Christian interpretation of Genesis 9:6. His second resource, the Hebrew grammar by Joüon and Muraoka, has higher renown but argues against Mastnjak’s position.

First, here is page 151 of Dennis Pardee’s book review in volume 53 of Journal of Near Eastern Studies (1994) of Waltke and O’Connor’s An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax: “Occasionally they give in to the norms of Indo-European syntax or do not indicate the rarity of a given construction. For example, on p. 385, they state that ‘in the complete passive, the agent may be indicated by a prepositional phrase…’ (cf. also p. 213). Not only have they omitted a statement regarding the rarity of the construction but most of their examples can be explained, within the terms of the Hebrew prepositional construction, otherwise (b in Gen. 9:6 = b of price; bhm in Exod. 12:16 = ‘among them’).” Unfortunately, Waltke and O’Connor only cite three examples of passive involving ב of agent (Gen 9:6; Exod 12:16; and Deut 33:29), and I would go farther than Pardee and argue that Exodus 12:16 is better translated “among them” than “by them.” Exodus 12:16 is not construed by other grammarians as indicating an agent. Genesis 9:6 is the verse under dispute. Tellingly, even Pardee does not object (in this book review anyway) to regarding Deuteronomy 33:29 as a ב of agent or at least some instrumental usage. But the list of plausible passive constructions with a ב of agent extends beyond those mentioned by Waltke and O’Connor. Leaving the disputed Genesis 9:6 aside, the examples of the construction in question in at least one of DCH or BDB are “was commanded by the Lord” (Num 36:2); “a people saved by the Lord” (Deut 33:29), “Israel is saved by the Lord” (Isa 45:17), “by a prophet he was guarded” (Hosea 12:13), and “by you, the orphan finds mercy” (Hosea 14:3). In short, Pardee is correct that Waltke and O’Connor could have done a better job on this construction, but if Mastnjak had consulted some lexicons in addition to a book review, he would have discovered that the construction is not as rare as he had presumed.

Things get much worse for Mastnjak in regard to his second supposed support, Joüon and Muraoka’s deservedly influential A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Rome: Biblico, 2006). That resource (ON THE VERY PAGE MASTNJAK REFERENCES) explicitly argues for the traditional translation of Genesis 9:6 that Mastnjak wants to reject! Mastnjak cites Joüon and Muraoka as follows, “In Hebrew (and classical Semitic languages in general) the marking of an agent with a verb morphologically marked as passive is rather limited in scope when compared with many Indo-European languages” (page 454). True, but what really matters is whether Genesis 9:6 is an example of an agent with a verb morphologically marked as passive. And this is what Joüon-Muraoka say about that on the same page 454: “In Gn 9.6 ב is used and not מן because man is here the instrument of justice (the exception to the law which forbids the shedding of blood, vs. 5): He who sheds a man’s blood, by (means of) a man shall his blood be shed(1).”2

Like Mastnjak, Joüon-Muraoka note the connection between verses 5 and 6 but draw a different conclusion to him. The footnote in this quote mentions not only Ernst Jenni’s entire volume on the Hebrew preposition ב in his massive three volume work on Hebrew prepositions, but also the medieval Jewish commentator Ibn Ezra. Ibn Ezra argues that Genesis 9:6 obligates the descendants of Noah to execute a murderer. Radak (Rabbi David Kimhi), perhaps the greatest medieval Hebrew grammarian, explains the connection to Genesis 9:5 in similar manner as do Targum Onqelos and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan: if there are witnesses, then the judges must ensure that the murderer is executed; but when there are no witnesses, God may personally require the reckoning.

Other modern Hebraists see more examples of agential ב with passive than do Joüon and Muraoka, and the disagreement may be more terminological than substantial. Joüon-Muraoka argue that the meaning in Deuteronomy 33:29 and Isaiah 45:17 is saved “through YHWH” rather than “by YHWH” but this is an exceptionally fine distinction given that Brown-Driver-Briggs (on page 89) equates “through YHWH” with “by YHWH’s aid” as an agential subcategory of the more general ב of instrument or means. Even if one argued that Joüon-Muraoka should, by consistency with their understanding of Deuteronomy 33:29 and Isaiah 45:17, have translated Genesis 9:6 as “through humans shall his man be shed,” with the “through” designating witnesses and judges rather than the “by” of executioners, i.e. along the lines of Targums Onqelos and Pseudo-Jonathan, this would not have helped Mastnjak’s case that Genesis 9:6 does not establish capital punishment.

Mastnjak’s grammatical argument regarding באדם is a complete bust. His second argument is likely worse. He states that context supplies the “implied agent responsible for shedding the blood the murderer. We need search the context no further than the immediately previous verse, Genesis 9:5: ‘But indeed I will seek your blood for your lives. From every beast I will seek it. From the hand of man, each man for his brother, I will seek the blood of a man.’” And when Mastnjak says, “we need search the context no further than the immediately previous verse,” he backs this hermeneutical decision up by spectacularly ignoring the contexts of: the preceding flood narrative after which Genesis 9 represents a new beginning; the pattern of violence from Cain to Lamech through to the whole earth being filled with violence to which Genesis 9:5-6 is a new response; the historical-comparative context of other flood stories in the Ancient Near East; the historical setting of the author of Genesis 9 living at a time when societies including Ancient Israel had law codes prescribing capital punishment for murder; and the literary setting of Genesis 1-11 which is replete with etiologies of how present institutions and other realities originated.

In fact, in his contextual argument for how to translate the first half of Genesis 9:6, Mastjnak does not even consider the second half of the verse, whose discussion of the image of God clearly connects it back to Genesis 1:27-28. Genesis 9:6b looks like a narratorial comment within the divine speech3 and certainly is a clause which purports to explain the rationale for the prescription in the first half of the verse; surely at least that context would have been germane! But all Mastnjak gives us is that “God commits himself in Genesis 9:5 to a mysterious mode of intervention in the world in which somehow – he does not say how – he himself will intervene to avenge any creature, man or beast, that violates the sanctity of human life. This commitment to avenge the blood of any manslayer interprets the following verse, Genesis 9:6, and provides the agent that the grammar does not specify. Who will shed the blood of the murderer? God himself.” In this interpretation, Genesis 9:6a adds basically nothing to what is said in verse 5, a weakness compared to the traditional translation which shows one manner in which God punishes the murderer (no one believes that all murderers are executed). Victor Hamilton points out that reading Genesis 9:6 as “for man shall his blood be shed” entails that Genesis 9:5-6 exhibits a tautology; and Kenneth Matthews argues, “Since the value of the victim’s life already is presented in v. 5, v. 6a is best taken as building on this by adding that the divine means of God’s ‘accounting’ includes human agency.”4

Mastnjak is entitled to offer counterarguments to Matthews, Hamilton, and others. What he is not entitled to do is give the impression that those who translate Genesis 9:6 in the traditional manner have not taken the context of the previous verse into account; they most certainly have and that is part of why they reject seeing Genesis 9:6 as an example of ב pretii.

However much Mastnjak’s grammatical argument lacked engagement with the relevant lexicons, it did at least cite two resources (even if one of them actually sunk his position). But in his contextual argument, Mastnjak’s audacity reaches new heights. He seeks to overturn the overwhelming consensus of Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant commentators and translators by a contextual argument that ignores almost all the contexts that responsible exegetes take into account – and breathlessly does so without citing a single scholar in making this argument.

Mastnjak is right that there is a certain vagueness concerning the agent of execution. But this fits with a variety of agents, not just God himself. John Wesley comments, “That is, by the magistrate, or whoever is appointed to be the avenger of blood. Before the flood, as it should seem by the story of Cain, God took the punishment of murder into his own hands; but now he committed this judgement to men, to masters of families at first, and afterwards to the heads of countries.”5 Likewise, John Walton writes, “Accountability to God for preserving human life is put into humanity’s hands, thus instituting blood vengeance in the ancient world and capital punishment in modern societies. In Israelite society blood vengeance was in the hands of the family of the victim.”6

Regarding the context of Genesis 9:6b, “Because in the image of God he made man,” Gordon Wenham comments, “It is because of man’s special status among the creatures that this verse insists on the death penalty for murder.”7 But it is also “man’s special status” as being in the image of God – whether this refers to analogically shared attributes such as intellect and will or whether it is as God’s royal representatives to the rest of creation – that befits humans to be instruments of divine punishment.8 David vanDrunen comments, “The image of God carried along with it a natural law, a law inherent to human nature and directing human beings to fulfill their royal commission to rule over creation in righteousness and justice.”9

We now turn to the context of Genesis 9:1-7 as the conclusion and remedy episode to the Genesis flood narrative, comparing and contrasting it with the flood account in the Atrahasis Epic. Tikvah Frymer-Kensky writes, “The structure presented by the Atrahasis Epic is clear. Man is created … there is a problem in creation … remedies are attempted but the problem remains … the decision is made to destroy man … this attempt is thwarted by the wisdom of Enki … a new remedy is instituted to ensure that the problem does not arise again.”10 In Genesis, a similar structure occurs with less emphasis on earlier remedy attempts and with God paralleling both the role of the main gods to destroy human beings and Enki’s role in providing a means of escape for Noah/Atrahasis. Comparing these stories helps us focus on the reason for the flood and on the changes made so that the world after enabled the continued existence of human beings.11

In the Atrahasis Epic, the problem was overpopulation. This is emphatically not the case in Genesis. God’s speech in Genesis 9:1b-7 is structured so that introductory commands to be fertile (Gen 9:1-b) and concluding commands to be fertile (Gen 9:7) envelop instruction concerning animals (Gen 9:2-4) and concerning the shedding of human blood (Gen 9:5-6).

The instruction concerning animals includes an assertive that animals will fear humans (Gen 9:2a), an exercitive granting humans dominion over animals (Gen 9:2b, linking back to Gen 1:28), a permission to eat animals (Gen 9:3), and a restriction of the permission by prohibiting the eating of blood (Gen 9:4). If the Jewish understanding is correct that Genesis 9:2-4 signals that prior to the deluge humans were forbidden to eat animals (Genesis 1 contains a permission to eat plants, but no permission to eat animals or prohibition thereof is mentioned), then the antediluvian mandating of vegetarianism might have been a contributing cause to the violence. Against this interpretation is that the distinction between clean and unclean foods is mentioned in the flood story, or in one of its sources, and that the text makes no link between human dietary habits and the divine decision to bring about a flood.

In any case, Genesis 9:5-6 which concerns human blood shed must be read as the remedy to the violence filling the earth which Genesis explicitly records as the reason for the divine decision to destroy all flesh (Gen 6:11, 13). As Frymer-Kensky observes, “Only three stories are preserved in Genesis from the ten generations between the expulsion from the Garden and the bringing of the flood. Two of these, the Cain and Abel story (Gen 4:1-15) and the tale of Lemech (Gen 4:19-24), concern the shedding of human blood.”12 Frymer-Kensky then discusses the remedy of Genesis 9:1-7, developed in later Judaism as the Noahic Code,13 as “a system of universal ethics, a ‘Natural Law’ system in which the laws are given by God” in which Genesis 9:6 contains “the declaration of the principle of the inviolability of human life with the provision of capital punishment for murder.”14 Nahum Sarna, justifies rendering Genesis 9:6 as “by man,” indicating the instrument of punishment, similarly sees it as a remedy to the pre-flood situation: “Human institutions, a judiciary, must be established for the purpose. This requirement seeks to correct the condition of ‘lawlessness’ that existed prior to the Flood (6:11).”15 Sarna also makes a grammatical argument about the crucial clause, namely that a phrase containing “blood” and the passive “shall be shed” always occurs in the Bible with a human agent (Lev 4:7, 18, 25, 30, 34; Deut 12:17; 19:10), not a divine one. Jozef Jancovic is another scholar who makes the connection between Genesis 9:5-6 and the shedding of blood in the Cain and Lamech stories as well as the violence in Genesis 6:11-13 that was the reason for the flood.16 Jancovic concludes, “God here delegates humanity with the power to punish human blood-shedding, and just as in the creation story, this delegation of power by God is justified by the creation of humanity in God’s image (Gen 9:6b).”17 He also connects the first plain poetry in Genesis 4:23-24 with the poetic structure in Genesis 9:6a as indicating that the permanent problem of violence had been solved in the lex talionis.18 Of course, by the time Genesis 9:6 was written, the lex talionis was a part of many ancient societies, so Genesis 9:6 can be seen as one of the many etiologies in Genesis 1-11.

None of these larger settings, which provide further evidence for the traditional translation of Genesis 9:6, are considered in Mastnjak’s contextual argument. And only by neglecting to discuss what other commentators have said about the grammatical considerations, the larger setting, and the immediate context in Genesis 9:5-6 can Mastnjak dare to conclude his article, “These observations on Genesis 9:6 do not, of course settle the question of the morality of capital punishment or how Pope Francis’s revision of the Catechism should be understood in relation to previous Church teaching.  But they do entail that if support for the death penalty is to be found in Sacred Scripture, it should be sought outside the covenant with Noah in Genesis 9.” No they do not entail that at all! The entire article is a bust.

Timothy Finlay, Professor of Biblical Studies, Azusa Pacific University

Notes:

1 See Jenni, Beth, 178–80, but so already Ibn Ezra ad loc.

2 Paul Joüon and T. Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Roma: Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2006), 454.

3 John Sailhammer notes not only the conjunction , “because,” but the shift to the 3rd person reference to God, and comments, “Already the narrative has become a platform for the development of the biblical law,” in “Genesis,” The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Genesis-Leviticus (Revised Edition) (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2008), 132.

4 Kenneth A. Matthews, Genesis 1-11:26 (New American Commentary; Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1996), 405.

5 John Wesley, Explanatory Notes upon the Old Testament (Bristol: William Pine, 1765), 41.

6 John H. Walton, Genesis (NIV Application Commentary; Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2001), 343.

7 Gordon J. Wenham, Genesis 1–15, vol. 1 of Word Biblical Commentary (Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1987), 194.

8 See David Novak, Natural Law in Judaism (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1998) and Steven Wilf, The Law before the Law (Lanham: Lexington Books, 2008) who draws from Maimonides’ Guide to the Perplexed.

9 David vanDrunen, A Biblical Case for Natural Law (Grand Rapids: Acton Institute, 2008), 14. VanDrunen comes from a Calvinist tradition. Calvin, like Luther and Wesley, regarded Genesis 9:6 as establishing capital punishment for homicide. See also Gerhard von Rad’s commentary on Genesis. Rad observed that Genesis 9:6 holds in tension the sanctity of human life (murder deserves capital punishment) and human responsibility to carry out punishment (executing a murderer is permissible). Similarly, Rusty Reno’s commentary on Genesis sees this tension as “the capacity to exercise authority for the sake of a higher principle” Genesis (Grand Rapids: Brazos Press, 2010), 125.

10 Tikvah Frymer-Kensky, “The Atrahasis Epic and its Significance for our Understanding of Genesis 1-9,” Biblical Archaeologist (1977), 149.

11 Frymer-Kensky, 150.

12 Frymer-Kensky, 152-53.

13 See for example Tosefta Abodah Zarah 8:4.

14 Frymer-Kensky, 152.

15 Nahum Sarna, Genesis (The JPS Torah Commentary; Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 1989), 62.

16 Josef Jancovic, “Blood Revenge in Light of the Imago Dei in Genesis 9:6,” The Biblical Annals 10 (2020) 198-99.

17 Jancovic, 203.

18 Jancovic, 199.

74 comments:

  1. Immense thanks to Prof. Finlay. This is extremely helpful articulation of the evidence and standing of the traditional reading.

    I want to pick up on, and extend, one point alluded to: that Genesis 1-11 is replete with "origin" stories. Indeed true. One of them is the origin of murder, the Cain and Abel story. A great many moderns take God's forbidding of humans to respond to Cain's awful act by killing him as God testifying that capital punishment is wrong. I don't believe that result can be found from the text.

    My main reason is in this: when God replies to Cain's dissembling with the truth, that "your brother's blood is crying out to me from the ground", and curses Cain (to wander the earth and the earth will not bear for him), look at Cain's response. He laments that the punishment is so great, and protests "anyone who meets me may kill me."

    As an origin story, the premise is that no other killings have preceded this one. There is no history, no practice, no custom, no culture, of replying to murder with capital punishment. On what grounds does Cain say this? There can only be one: it is natural that human society would repudiate such a monstrosity with force. It is part of the natural law.

    God's reply is enlightening too, if you notice what he DOES NOT say: after Cain worries that "anyone may kill me" God's response is "Not so. Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance." And the Lord put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him.

    These are things most definitely not said: God does not say "Not so, they would have no right, no cause, no justice, no reason, no basis." Nor does he say "Not so, they would do no such thing, how could you even imagine such a thing? Your forecast is nonsense." No, to me it seems most definite, God's response is a response that confirms Cain's expectations, as if God is saying "That's what they WOULD do, if I do not take further steps. But I will take further steps, and because of those, they will not kill you. Therefore, no, they won't kill you."

    And one more thing God does not do: God does not even hint that all other murderers will have a sign put on them, by God. As far as I know, there is no tradition suggesting God did so later, certainly nothing in Genesis says that He did so. The mark was a one-off event, protecting ONE murderer, without any hint that God intends the same curse and penal structure applies generally.

    One might suggest that it MUST be so, because God's protective reverse-curse (the 7-fold retribution) cannot possibly represent the naturally proportionate punishment as a universal rule.

    In any case, God's implicit recognition of Cain's complaint as correct is a testament to the natural law foundation of the death penalty. Genesis 9:6 merely lays it out explicitly, showing its fittingness from the very nature of man.

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  2. I take offense with the idea of the method of execution being lethal injection. That is society saying the message that executing a criminal is like putting down an animal, which is objectively dehumanizing.

    If you're going to take that route and advocate for traditional retributive justice, I'd rather have you advocate for a manly way of execution, like death by firing squad. Even stoning to death or death by sword like in the Old Testament is less dehumanizing than lethal injection!

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    1. Perhaps we should start stoning animals and slaying them by sword to make death by lethal injection more humane?

      Do not matters of hygene and the physical mess left for others to clean up matter to you at all Holy?

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    2. It seems to me that's society saying that the death penalty suffices as a penalty and need not be accompanied by more suffering.
      For your information, animals used to be shot or killed in various ways. it precisely in orderv to avoid unnecessary suffering that lethal injection was introduced.
      But, I agree, lethal injection sheds no blood and God explicitly commands us to shed the blood of murderers; Or doesn't he?

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    3. Do not matters of hygene and the physical mess left for others to clean up matter to you at all Holy?

      Unless you wish to disintegrate the criminal into atoms in some molecular furnace, you're going to have a mess. But the traditional English penalty of hanging is more dignified than the lethal injection. No matter how great the debt of the criminal is, execution should not be like putting down a horse with a broken leg or a dog with rabies. You cannot possibly justify that on natural law.

      But, I agree, lethal injection sheds no blood and God explicitly commands us to shed the blood of murderers

      You're reading the Bible too literally. Blood in the Old Testament is a synecdoche for life (kind of like how when King Charles III approaches we refer to him by part and say "here comes the crown") and shedding of blood is an idiom for the taking away of life. "For the life of every creature—its blood is its life;" (Leviticus 17:14a NRSVCE)

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    4. WCB

      Modern Near Eastern archaeology has demonstrated the Torah is faux history. There was no 430 years in Egyptian captivity. No exodus. No wandering in the wilderness 40 years. No bloody genocidal invasion of Canaan by Moses and Joshua. No Moses on the mount and the 613 laws of Moses did not come from God.

      These laws came from the redactor of these tall tales. So bloody commands to stone malefactors who pick up sticks on the Sabbath et al are not commands of God.

      So when it comes to capitol punishment, we are morally and ethically on our own. The laws of ancient Israelite priests are not binding. Does God command shedding of blood? Archaeology casts great doubt on that proposition.

      I also note that in Europe, laws are being passed in some nations banning the cruel maner of slaughtering animals in a religiously approved manner of slitting their throats. Kosher oor halal is no longer acceptable here.

      WCB

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    5. I agree with HolyK to this extent: we should not be squeamish about using a method of killing that imposes some pain. In fact, we should not be squeamish about using a method that imposes the sort of pain that would ordinarily attend a mortal injury.

      As to the principle: there is nothing unfitting about the idea that the penalty of being put to death includes what is ordinary for causing death, i.e. such grave injury that the body cannot sustain life. This can be seen as within the conceptual bounds of the retributive end of punishment as to this particular kind of punishment.

      As to secondary ends: the most urgent of secondary ends is the reform of the criminal, i.e. his repentance before death. I dare say that every sane individual will naturally fear death greatly, and will have a powerful motive to repent of their sins in response to the approach of death. But surely the expectation of not only death, but a painful killing stroke, will increase that response so that it becomes even more probable. In the few cases that it does not have this effect, likely they are so far gone morally that no particular method was going to lead them to repentance.

      Deterrence: clearly, if a punishment of death without pain has a deterrence effect, a punishment of death with the pain of some mortal injury will have at least as much, and probably more.

      Against these, prudence requires us to weigh in with other consequences besides, such as feeding bloodthirsty mobs with violent spectacle, the effect on the executioner himself, and other issues. I have no problem with adjusting the method for true prudential considerations: these should not be fake "problems" that are merely made up out of what is essentially just rejection of the death penalty itself.

      What I cannot begin to fathom is the situation where there are lawsuits against the state for lethal injections, where (apparently) the objection is that the death result is ... what? not reliable enough, not painless enough? How hard is it to inject enough morphine to kill a horse? Or an elephant? Or to repeat if death is not within X minutes? The whole concern seems farcical.

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    6. @Anonymous

      Lethal injection is the same method that we use to euthanize animals. Because human beings are not animals but are made in the image and likeness of their Creator, it therefore follows that lethal injection is a disordered means to an ordered end.

      Just like how Catholic theology forbids lying to Nazis (disordered means) to save Jews hiding in your attic (ordered end), it therefore follows that we cannot use a method that equalizes human beings to animals (disordered means) to achieve justice (ordered end). Catholicism rejects consequentialism which means that we're forbidden to use evil means so that good might come.

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    7. I am hardly an expert on Catholic theology, but surely it does not forbid lying to a Nazi in order to save Jews as HolyKnowing claims. Surely there is a hierarchy of 'evils', and it would be permissible to perfom a lesser one in order to avoid one more grave in a forced situation. Could people post in clarification about this please?
      Also, is HolyK correct in asserting that as a mode of execution, lethal injection is undignified by natural law?

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    8. but surely it does not forbid lying to a Nazi in order to save Jews as HolyKnowing claims.

      As I understand the status of the question: There remains some dispute within Catholic theological circles on formal nature of the basic prohibition against lying, and this results in some dispute as to the moral licitness of lying to save lives: the strongly favored position is that the formal nature of lying absolutely forbids lying in all contexts (but does not absolutely forbid allowing an antagonist from deceiving himself in cases where his deception furthers the common good.) The (weakly) allowed alternate position is that there remains (barely) room to consider lying in the grave cases such as to save a life as at least possibly morally licit.

      In the (preliminary version of the) Catechism, 1992, JPII allowed the work to employ phrasing that leaned toward the second position. He received a virtual firestorm from theologians about it, and in the 1997 authoritative edition he changed the wording to more fully reflect the first position - without stating that the first position represents THE DEFINITIVE position: In justice, "as a matter of honor, one man owes it to another to manifest the truth."

      Catholicism indeed attests to a hierarchy of goods (and therefore evils), but also says that there are acts that are intrinsically morally evil, and these can never be done even if the following consequences are painful to accept. Thus it is clear from the examples of the martyrs that we are obliged to speak the truth about worshiping only the one true God, even if that results in our own (or several others') death. Hence the hierarchical framework includes the calculus of intrinsically evil acts that must never be chosen whatever the circumstances or consequences.

      is HolyK correct in asserting that as a mode of execution, lethal injection is undignified by natural law?

      He is asserting his personal opinion. It is an opinion either well or poorly supported by added the arguments that he evinces for it. In my personal opinion, his have some weight, but are not conclusive, and I would be more tentative, avoiding "undignified" for something more nuanced like "may not correspond in most cases to the full scope of properly intended of ends of punishment", leaving open that it might be useful in certain narrow cases. I would add, however, that I agree with the basic thrust of his point, i.e. that it belongs to the nature of penalty to impose something repugnant to the criminal, and if the due punishment is death, nothing within the moral framework demands that the means chosen be pain-free: clearly being painful licitly may be included within the intention to impose something repugnant. It is fitting, perhaps even normative, that the intention of "death" be accompanied by causing that kind of injury that normally causes death, and causing the pain of such an injury. These are morally fitted as to the moral culpability of the criminal whose crime itself includes these kinds of evils, and who willed an action that he knew included these kinds of evils.

      However, I have never seen this position either asserted or rejected in any authoritative Catholic teaching.

      I was the "anonymous" of 12:57pm yesterday.

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    9. The death penalty imposes death to the criminal. Nothing more or nothing less. If due punishment is death, there is nothing to be added to it, so, yes, the moral framework demands that the means chosen be pain-free.
      Unless due punishment also involves pain, which is another matter altogether.

      BTW, there is nop such thing as a 'kind of injury that normally causes death'. There are lots of causes of death, some extremely painful and some painless, so your argument here doesn't make any sense

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    10. You should surely see a result like 'do not tell even a small lie to save Jews in the cellar from abuse, torture and death' as a reductio of your moral system. I will never befriend and trust a devout Catholic again, as you are saying they are obliged not to lie when questioned by a known child rapist about the present location of my kids! Absolutely appalling.

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    11. The death penalty imposes death to the criminal. Nothing more or nothing less. If due punishment is death, there is nothing to be added to it,

      On what basis do you add "nothing added to it"? If the sentence the judge gives is "hang by the neck until dead", the punishment intended includes all such details as accompanying hanging, not just "death". There is nothing automatic about HOW the death is to be accomplished, and until modern drugs were invented, killing someone generally required something painful. (Hemlock, for example, is quite painful.) Furthermore, many argued that the public shame involved was also an intended aspect of the penalty imposed.

      The Romans would use crucifixion for the basest and worst of criminals, but they would simply behead someone who had citizen status. The mode of delivering death was part of the sentencing judgment of the judge, and clearly he was expected to make use of reasons for imposing one rather than the other, even though both resulted in death. (And no, I am not condoning the Roman use of crucifixion.) The point is that the conclusion "no punishment short of death is sufficient, death is needed to comprise a proportionate punishment" simply does not imply "death without pain" must be the fully proportionate punishment, there cannot be any other aspects of penal imposition.

      @Anonymous of 12:47 am: It never fails to amaze me that people present these scenarios as if you can only take one of two options, no other options are even theoretically possible: tell the child rapist where your kids are, or lie to him. What the heck? What about the 645 OTHER options: turn him over to the police. Tell him to buzz off. Kick him in the nuts. Grab a gun and stand next to your kids. Shame him publicly. Tell him to go bugger himself. Tell him something that is true but HE will interpret wrongly so that doesn't lead him to the kids. Just say no.

      The traditional Christian teaching (not just Catholic, by the way, all Christians used to teach this) is that if you assert a proposition, it should conform to what you actually hold to be true in your mind. Nothing about that stance says that you have an obligation to give information away to those who intend evil with it.

      Which world do you think would be a better world to live in: the one where the Christian tells the truth 100% of the time, and 99.999% of the time, telling the truth improves societal wellbeing even if (sometimes) it hurts him personally; or the world where he tells the truth "when he deems that is overall advantageous for society", which means that 90% of the time he tells the truth, 5% of the time he tells a lie where he is right that the lie is an advantage to society in a particular area of good that he had in mind, and 5% of the time he tells a lie and he has mistaken and the lie is actually harmful to society because he forecasted the consequences wrongly? Whatever your answer, I submit that the Christian answer, from Christ onwards, generally was that the world in which all persons never lie was inherently beneficial to society in the long run because the secondary and tertiary effects of being ALWAYS able to trust what the other guy said bears beneficial fruit in 10,000 ways that cannot be predicted in advance.

      But that issue has nothing to do with the death penalty debate.

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    12. @Anonymous

      Okay, that was a bit of an oversimplification. St. Alphonsus Ligouri (ora pro nobis) came up with a moral calculus that worked it out so that lying to Nazis to save Jews in your cellar doesn't count as a sin at all, hundreds of years before this became historical fact. You can read what he wrote here which compares St. Alphonsus Ligouri's position with that of Aquinas

      But if you want to know my more mystical interpretation of things: even though according to the literal letter of the Law all liars will be destroyed (" Thou wilt destroy all that speak a lie." Psalm 5:6 Douay-Rheims), in the Garden of Eden, God made man master over language (Genesis 2:19) and so under the deeper reading of natural law, God cannot allow man to be in permanent bondage by his misuse of language. This is why God forgave both Abraham and Isaac for the mortal sin of lying and still considered them blameless before His eyes.

      "'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:32 KJV)

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    13. Tony at 1.22PM

      Real life often does present several alternative courses of action in a given situation, but sometimes a binary /trinary choice is forced. If our hypothetical devout Catholic was pinned to the wall by a knife wielding child rapist, and asked on pain of assault ( or worse ) where my kids were - lets assume that they had been staying over - I take it they would have to reveal the information ( if they knew it ) or face the consequences. The notion that concious deception would not be permissible to mislead /misdirect the rapist is bizarre and morally immature ( just a case of mindless rule following with no regards to context ), and would be condemned as such by the overwhelming majority of theists on the planet, let alone secularists.

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    14. Tony

      "On what basis do you add "nothing added to it"?"

      I really do not understand this question.
      if 'due punishment ' is death, then that's it.
      If you say there should be some pain involved, then you are saying that death in itself is not due punishment.
      Maybe you think that death in itself cannot be due punishment if it doesn't involve at least some pain, but, as I said, that's a different matter and it is not included in Genesis 9:6. Of course, If the judge such "hang by the neck until dead", the punishment intended includes all such details as accompanying hanging, not just "death", but that is my point. The judge in that case doesn't think death in itself is due punishment.
      And I agree that until modern drugs were invented, killing someone generally required something painful, but that stull entails that if death in itself is due punishment, the execution should involve as little pain as possible.
      I have always thought that Christians believe you should love your enemy, but i guess that is not true. Apparently you should kill at least some of your enemies and in doing so also impose at least some pain.
      But thank God Christians do not lie.



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    15. @HolyKnowing,

      "Because human beings are not animals but are made in the image and likeness of their Creator, it therefore follows that lethal injection is a disordered means to an ordered end."

      Just because animals and people are different doesn't mean that we should always be treated differently. I give my cats food on plates, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to eat off a plate. And we are animals. Look it up in a biology textbook.

      "Catholicism rejects consequentialism which means that we're forbidden to use evil means so that good might come."

      The death penalty itself is using evil means so that good might come. And how are you going to execute anyone without using evil means? How are you going to force people to join e.g., a firing squad without requiring them to use 'evil means' (shooting someone) to achieve a 'good end' (whatever good you claim is served by the death penalty)?

      In any case, the whole of Christianity is based on using evil means (a crucifiction) to achieve good ends (our being saved). And how is threatening people with hell not using evil means so that good might come?

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    16. @Tony,

      "It never fails to amaze me that people present these scenarios as if you can only take one of two options, no other options are even theoretically possible:"

      Ironic that you object to a hypothetical scenario with only two options, but not to a religion which gives you only two options: believe or go to hell.

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    17. And how is threatening people with hell not using evil means so that good might come?

      If you say to a drunkard that if he gets into the car after guzzling down a bottle of Everclear, he can expect to go to jail, that's not a threat. That's objective reality. Stating how objective reality works is not "evil means".

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    18. if 'due punishment ' is death, then that's it.
      If you say there should be some pain involved, then you are saying that death in itself is not due punishment.
      Maybe you think that death in itself cannot be due punishment if it doesn't involve at least some pain,


      To say that "death is due" is NOT to say "nothing more than death is also due.

      Suppose that murderer Jack kills a victim, by premeditation and in cold blood, for some monetary gain, and does it by lethal injection. One might well say death is proportionate as the punishment, and in that case mean "death and nothing else". Suppose that murderer Bill kills a victim, in premeditation, after rape and torture. There is nothing unfitting about saying for Bill that "death using a painful means thereby" is proportionate: his death itself, alone, is proportionate to the death he inflicted merely as to the victim's loss of life but it does little to address the other evils that he inflicted on the way to the death of the victim.

      We will not ever be able to impose sentences that match, jot for jot, the exact same degree of suffering on the criminal as he gave to the victim, and so that cannot be the proper goal of punishment in the hand of the human justice system. God can impose that, and he will in fact supplement what we can do with his own. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive toward proportion insofar as is reasonable. In my example above, clearly a more severe punishment is warranted for Bill than for Jack. Choosing to ignore that if more severe punishment is licit seems an odd way to run a justice system.

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    19. The death penalty itself is using evil means so that good might come.

      This is using "evil" in a different sense than that of moral evil. Evils of the physical order include sickness and death (both of humans and of animals and plants). The death of a rodent is an evil of the physical order to the rodent, but a physical good for the wolf that eats it. The evil of sinful choice by a person with free will is a a different order of evil altogether. No aggregations of evils of the physical order justify willing a sinful act freely: one should be willing to die rather than sin, even though death is one of the greatest of evils (of the physical order). So, the "evils" used in punishment are evils of the physical order, and are not sins, not evils of the moral order.

      In any case, the whole of Christianity is based on using evil means (a crucifiction) to achieve good ends (our being saved).

      God permitted men to do the evils involved in crucifying Christ, but did not do them. He is not the cause of their sins. He used the results of their freely willed acts that were sins, but did not cause their sins.

      Ironic that you object to a hypothetical scenario with only two options, but not to a religion which gives you only two options: believe or go to hell.

      Nature herself often puts people into a situation where they have a choice between two very unpalatable options: the young man who was hiking alone a few years ago, and got his arm caught between rocks, was faced with the choice of dying or cutting off his arm. He chose the latter. But nature herself always imposes some limits on creatures, and sometimes those limits narrow down to very few options. Indeed, when you get right down to it, for most people when they die the possibilities narrow down to NO options, you just die.

      Heaven consists in union with God. The world that God created includes our free will. So, in effect nature herself (all of creation) narrows our choices to either willing to be in union with God, or not willing to do so. You seem to be implying that the universe should not cast us into such a choice.

      Catholicism doesn't say the choice is to "believe in an outlandish tale that you have no reasonable basis to believe, or go to hell". The choice before all men is always choice coordinate with their reason, but that includes their using their reason honestly and not trying to fool themselves.

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    20. Anonymous

      "To say that "death is due" is NOT to say "nothing more than death is also due."

      I agree, but the "something more" has nothing to do with the death penalty as such. Genesis 9:6 does not say, "By man shall his blood be shed and by man pain shall be inflicted upon him"

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    21. @Anonymous

      Just because animals and people are different doesn't mean that we should always be treated differently. I give my cats food on plates, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to eat off a plate. And we are animals. Look it up in a biology textbook.

      Man is a rational animal. It is our possession of reason that separates us from the animals. Also self-awareness, because human beings have an awareness of suffering that animals do not possess.

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    22. @ HolyKnowing,

      "If you say to a drunkard that if he gets into the car after guzzling down a bottle of Everclear, he can expect to go to jail, that's not a threat. That's objective reality. Stating how objective reality works is not "evil means"."

      This silly answer reminds me of a kid saying "it's not a threat, it's a promise!" Sorry, but telling someone that they will go to prison if they drink and drive is a threat. Again, look it up in a dictionary. Hell is about as far from "objective reality" as it's possible to get, but if it did exist, stating that it exists wouldn't be evil, but creating such a place would be evil.

      "Man is a rational animal. It is our possession of reason that separates us from the animals. Also self-awareness, because human beings have an awareness of suffering that animals do not possess."

      Studies have shown that animals can reason, so there is no neat dividing line between human beings and animals. And what makes you think that animals aren't aware of suffering?

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    23. Anonymous,

      I agree with you about lying - there appears to be a serious moral problem in the idea that it'd never be okay to lie. It is easy enough to think of scenarios where one can't come up with other viable ways of stopping a threat, or where such other ways wouldn't be the most effective.
      If a nazi knows you saw where the Jews are hiding, and is threatening you with death to reveal their location, then it's obvious that you should be permitted to lie to protect those people. You simply have no other viable means of stopping him, and none that would be as safe and effective as just *lying* to save those poor people. To say lying would be unacceptable here would indeed be a reductio against an ethical system. Of course it should be permissible to lie to protect Jews.

      The people who lied to Nazis in order to protect the Jews didn't do anything wrong at all. They did something right and morally sensible. A good ethical system and understanding about the value of truth, life, speech, etc. should not contradict such a clear fact. It should make sense of it.

      So you are right about that.

      But you are wrong about hell having to be a "threat" like that. I don't agree with you that if someone warns someone else that their actions might have negative consequences, that this would constitute a "threat", at least not in a morally relevant way for this situation. If I warn you that taking drugs will cause you serious problems, so you shouldn't do it, am I threatening you? I would say no. But if I am, then it's not in any morally troublesome way.

      Likewise, a believer can be convinced that separation from God/the Gopd entails (as a consequence) eternal suffering. There would be nothing objectionable about having such a warning, and God himself could give it as well. The believer holds that God doesn't want people to separate themselves from Him (who is the Good) and condemn themselves to misery. If that's a threat, it's not a problematic one IMO. (And I am not really sympathetic to hell myself)

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    24. "Studies have shown that animals can reason, so there is no neat dividing line between human beings and animals. And what makes you think that animals aren't aware of suffering?"

      Animals clearly can't reason in the way humans do. "Studies" are not particularly good at determining metaphysical issues like that. A case of (e.g.) clear abstract reasoning about determinate and universal concepts might not be functionally different from very advanced roting, or (to use another example) a very impressive AI mechanism (which nevertheless most people would not consider a case of real reasoning; and not like a true, conscious grasp of concepts, since machines aren't even conscious).

      I think it's hard to deny there is a categorical difference between humans and beasts in how we can understand the world and control our actions. But even if you're bent on seeing it as a matter of degrees, I think even then it should be clear that the difference in degree would be big enough to justify a moral superiority of humans over animals.

      That humans are far more valuable than animals and deserve special treatment is one of those truths that we should hold even pre-philosophically, and that an ethical system should never contradict. (Just like "lying to protect people from serious harm is not morally problematic", by the way).

      You are correct, however, that just because men and animals are different it does not follow that we should always be treated differently. HolyKnowing's case made no sense. Your example about the plate is sufficient. We can also say that if (e.g.) a lethal injection is the least painful way to kill something, then it's totally fine to favor it for both animals and people. Because we should also be kind to animals. There'd be nothing immoral about using the same means for both animals and men if that means is a good one for our purpose.

      I don't know if we should always care about minimizing the pain of an evil convict, though. Some criminals are so evil that I don't see why (e.g.) just a quick death would be what is sought; we shouldn't have to necessarily avoid inflicting any pain on them.
      I think we should also privilege the victim's feelings. Not absolutely, but to some degree. I think the victim's feelings and POV are too often ignored in these debates about criminal justice.

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    25. @Atmo,

      "Animals clearly can't reason in the way humans do. "Studies" are not particularly good at determining metaphysical issues like that."

      Humans can't reason the way humans can. By which I mean, humans today have access to logic, mathematics, philosophy, the scientific method, awareness of our biases, understanding of fallacies, libraries, computers (including AI) to help us, and reasoning skills in general, all of which were completely unavailable to our remote ancestors, and all of which had to be developed by trial-and-error over millenia. Our prehistoric hunter-gatherer ancestors would seem a lot less superior to other great apes than you might like to think.

      Studies have shown that many animals can reason abstractly, and I don't see what reasoning has got to do with metaphysics?

      "A case of (e.g.) clear abstract reasoning about determinate and universal concepts might not be functionally different from very advanced roting, or (to use another example) a very impressive AI mechanism (which nevertheless most people would not consider a case of real reasoning; and not like a true, conscious grasp of concepts, since machines aren't even conscious)."

      The comparison here is supposed to be with other animals, not with machines, but the very fact that AIs exist (we were still using steam engines 50 years ago!) is surely evidence that reasoning isn't that special and consciousness isn't necessary for reasoning. Also, abstraction is a matter of degree. (As an aside, I assume that God can't reason if he already knows everything.)

      "I think it's hard to deny there is a categorical difference between humans and beasts in how we can understand the world and control our actions. But even if you're bent on seeing it as a matter of degrees, I think even then it should be clear that the difference in degree would be big enough to justify a moral superiority of humans over animals."

      As I see it, what matters is how much we (humans and animals) are capable of suffering, not how morally superior we are.

      "I don't know if we should always care about minimizing the pain of an evil convict, though. Some criminals are so evil that I don't see why (e.g.) just a quick death would be what is sought; we shouldn't have to necessarily avoid inflicting any pain on them."

      Inflicting unnecessary pain on others seems to me self-evidently wrong and surely unchristian - how is it morally different to torture?

      "I think we should also privilege the victim's feelings. Not absolutely, but to some degree."

      If the victim is dead, they have no feelings to take into account! But anyway, isn't this already done with victim statements read out before sentencing is decided?

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  3. WCB

    The wonders of theology. Ask 6 theologians what verse X means and get 7 different answers.

    WCB

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    1. The whole point is precisely that that is not in fact true in this case. That Genesis 9:6 sanctions capital punishment has consistently been by far the majority view among Jews and Christians for millennia. So the example illustrates the opposite of what you claim it does.

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    2. WCB

      The OT has death penalties for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Worshipping idols. And more. Yet by the times of Jesus, nobody was executed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Tho Old Testament did not command killing heretics by burning them alive at the stake. As per in Spain under the inquisition with it's aout-de-fes.

      What wascommanded in the OT was not necessarily law of the land at all times. And not all activities such as auto-de-fes are commanded in the Old Testament. Nor torture as during the inquisition.

      It is a very much more complexwhen considered carefully.

      Though under the Romans in the time of Jesus, torture and painful executions for rebels and rabble rousers were common. But that was Roman custom.

      WCB

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    3. "It is a very much more complexwhen considered carefully."

      Physician, heal thyself!

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  4. I don't see the need to get into voluminous scholarship over this. But, I am not a biblical scholar, so that is the end of that story. Retribution has repeated itself for centuries. So has history, for that matter. We just can't seem to get it right. I think those convicted of murder, beyond a reasonable doubt, should have to pay a price. I am not convinced that life in prison, without parole does much, although contrition is peevishly hard to gauge. Can't justify feeding and clothing a murderer until death from age or infirmity. My pragmatist spirit here. It is not useful. I'll go with an eye for an eye; tooth for tooth; life for life. The firing squad is OK---but, why should we be apologetic for punishing a murderer, whatever the method?

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  5. The question regarding the use and administration of the death penalty is so multi layered and its possible resolution so additionally conditioned by one's view of what human beings are, that it is almost mandatory that the question be narrowed and focused as has been done here.

    As a more general proposition however, there is no widespread agreement about any point of "philosophical anthropology " in western societies. If you cannot even agree on that ...

    Now, how much of that disagreement is the result of those psychological disturbances which some ineffectual, jaded, or histrionic people manifest as a result of inhabiting a society where they just float around and actually do and produce nothing of real value, is another matter.

    How conditioned are their views on their unearned conceits?

    A recently informative if comical incident wherein a defund the police advocate was herself carjacked and beaten severely, resulting in her posting this hilarious passage, might give some insight:
    " Look at my face. REMEMBER ME when you are thinking about supporting letting juveniles and young people out of custody to roam our streets instead of HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.”

    Yeah, so arm chair nihilism, socialism, redistributivism, or Frankieist vaticanista social engineering are all one thing from a protected center of the herd unreality. But quite another when that reality actually rises up and smashes you in your smirking pontificating face.

    Once the fetus sacrificing suburban soccer moms, the drunken bureaucrat karens, the pajama boys, inside trader " geniuses", fey Jesuits, and retired pixie haired schoolmarms of all 57 genders, hit the brick wall of the realty outside of their heads, or their sinecures, then, all of the sudden their tune changes ... well for the most part.

    Little doubt that some - perhaps the the lecturing Tik Tokers with pink hair and cat whiskers painted on their faces - will welcome being dragged still living by their hair to their own funeral pyre, or being subjected - if fatally - to various forms of impalings only marginally more severe than those they usually seek out on their own.

    But if experiece is any guide, most will probably start screaming for rescue, calling upon the hard handed men they otherwise despise, for assistance.

    And the real crime is that some of those men, men of good will who seem never to learn from experience, will help.

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. " 'the pajama boys'
      Are you talking about this stale old meme? And I thought my Melee comment that Dr...."


      Well, pajama boy might have been a meme, but if so, it was one which was instantly generated by the apparently not very self-aware developers of the advert promoting ObamaCare.

      ( Though, I did see it argued by left partisans, that it was deliberately and cleverly designed to highlight cultural antagonisms in order to motivate compliance)

      Has the image lost its force? Maybe. I suppose for those who have voted in fewer than 3 presidential elections, a reference which still has visual impact when describing neutered males, might pass right over their heads ... as they struggle to squeeze into their low rise skinny jeans ... before heading to Starbucks as an ally.



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    3. @DNW

      as they struggle to squeeze into their low rise skinny jeans ... before heading to Starbucks as an ally.

      Ha ha ha. Yeah, you got me. :P

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  6. Ever notice how modern scholarship always has a tendency to argue in favor of modern sensibilities in interpretations of ancient texts? Sure seems convenient that it just so happens you tend to “discover” novel ways to interpret passages in a way that neatly aligns with what you already want to believe.

    Can anyone point to a single example of modern scholarship doing the opposite? For example, using this kind of arcane grammatical tortured logic to conclude that Jesus was actually condemning the woman in adultery in John 8, or that the rich man in Matthew 19’s real problem was not his attachment to his wealth, but his despair when he turned away (and so, it’s really not a big deal to be fabulously wealthy and we shouldn’t cast judgement on people like Elon Musk).

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  7. I've skimmed through twice and though I see a detailed review of the ostensible premisses of Mastnjak's argument, I dont actually see a full reconstruction of the so-called price or transactional preposition version of the verse which Mastnjak says is correct.

    It must be there. But I kept looking for a comparative juxtaposition of, the traditional ' by a human shall that person’s blood be shed’ with the alternate translation and missed it.

    Is this embedded fragment the proposed version? "Victor Hamilton points out that reading Genesis 9:6 as “for man shall his blood be shed” entails that Genesis 9 ...."

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    1. Hi DNW. Here is what Mastnjak says:
      "It is not 'by a human shall that person's blood be shed' but 'for the human shall that person's blood be shed.' The prepositional phrase does not express the agent who sheds the murderer's blood; it asserts that the murderer's blood is shed for the human that the murderer killed."

      Mastnjak actually never gives a full reconstruction of Genesis 9:6a but I presume it would be, "Whoever sheds the blood of a human, for a human shall that person's blood be shed." It is not very different than leaving out the b'adam entirely: "Whoever sheds the blood of a human, that person's blood shall be shed."

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    2. "Mastnjak actually never gives a full reconstruction of Genesis 9:6a but I presume it would be, "Whoever sheds the blood of a human, for a human shall that person's blood be shed." It is not very different than leaving out the b'adam entirely: "Whoever sheds the blood of a human, that person's blood shall be shed"

      Thanks.

      Rather than,
      "... By a man his ..."
      We supposedly should read,
      "... for a man his ..."
      "for", ultimately being
      understood as meaning as you say, something like in-payment-of; if not, 'on behalf of'.

      The ultimate theory to be developed being something along the lines of our having gone from a state monopoly of capital force to a divine monopoly. And, a refutation of the traditional understanding of Genesis 9:6a being just one support prop knocked out in aid of it, along the way.

      But as you note:
      "Mastnjak ... conclude[s] his article, 'These observations on Genesis 9:6 do not, of course settle the question of the morality of capital punishment or how Pope Francis’s revision of the Catechism should be understood in relation to previous Church teaching. But they do entail that if support for the death penalty is to be found in Sacred Scripture, it should be sought outside the covenant with Noah in Genesis 9.' No they do not entail that at all!"

      Not in that case maybe.

      But I suppose there is always a convenient reinterpretation available to the creative and motivated, given just a little ingenuity.

      "Well, now, fertility. Some say it's pagan. But who's not pagan in some matters?

      Draco: True, true! I love the speech of scholars.

      Priest: These young folks here think of nothing but frolic. "Desist!" I tell them, but they will go a-wantoning. So, lest the Devil take them, I preach them a text from holy writ. "Increase and multiply," I say. "Replenish the earth." And oh! how they obey me.
      "

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  8. There is another reason that Mastnjak's theory is less plausible than the traditional translation and interpretation: it isn't the best way to read the rest of 9:1 through 9:7. The passage as a whole is relating blessings, permissions, and directives. In that context, the prediction in 9:2 that animals will fear man is explained by the permission / authority confirmed in 9:3, the purpose of the observation made in 9:2 is found in the actions that 9:3 approves. Similarly, the constraint in 9:4 (not eating the blood with the meat) and the explanatory stance of 9:5 sits in explanation of a directive / authority confirmed in 9:6. The contextual purpose of relating the constraint and explanation of 9:4-5 is found in the actions approved in 9:6. In Mastnjak's approach, 9:6(a) effectively just repeats the sense of 9:5 without any new information, which in the context of the whole passage is not very plausible.

    I would like to ask the biblical scholars here about the view that the permission to eat animals in 9:3 represents an original permission that God FIRST makes here, in 9:3, such that before that grant of permission in 9:3 it was expressly considered unlawful for man to eat animals. I would ask: under what level of consistency / authority / tradition was this view taught? Was it the universal view of the Hebrews before Christ? Was it the common or preferred interpretation of the Fathers? What about the Doctors?

    Here is why I ask: In Genesis 4, Abel offered the "firstlings of his flock, and of their fat." To me this implies that he offered burnt offerings to the Lord of his animals, which would necessarily imply that Abel interpreted man's "dominion" over the animals to extend to killing them as sacrifice. So, right there, "their blood" was subject to man's authority.

    Furthermore, the added nuance of "and of their fat" implies something more distinct. There are several different ways that the Hebrews, later, offered sacrifice to the Lord. One of them included burning the entirety of the animal, so that nothing was left but ashes. But another was offering a part to the Lord, and then partaking of other parts so that the sacrifice and the (human) act of eating were conjoined into a sharing, together, of man and Lord. These kinds of sacrifice were explicitly spelled out later under Moses, but there is plenty of reason to believe that the practice preceded Moses, and even preceded Abraham. Did it precede even Noah?

    I think that the "and of their fat" suggests that the answer is YES. Because if you offer up the whole animal, necessarily you offer up both the fat and the lean. But if you burn up only part of the animal for the Lord, then you burn the choicest, the richest parts, i.e. the fat; and you partake of the rest. By singling out "and of their fat" the author seems to imply (to me, seems very clearly to imply) sometimes burning only PART of the animal, and the only reason possible for doing so would include using the rest for human goods, (i.e. a participatory meal). It would be irrational to suggest taking the best part, burning it for the Lord, and throwing the rest away as if it had no significance or value. This would be even more demeaning to "the life" (i.e. blood) than participating in by eating that leftover part.

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  9. But if it were the case that Abel rightly interpreted man's "dominion" over animals as extended to their very life, and this includes within it the right to eat them in participation with sacrifice to God, then Genesis 9:3 is primarily confirming what already exists. (9:7 also confirms what already exists.) Indeed, the reference in 9:6(b) to man's nature, being so vastly above the natures of the animals and plants as to be uniquely described as "in God's image", would represent explanatory power for the confirmation in 9:3 and the blessing/directive re-confirmed in 9:7, and can be taken as describing the actions approved in 9:3, 9:6 and 9:7 as part of the natural law.

    That is to say: it seems (to me) more coherent to read the entire passage as God explaining man's nature and its ramifications in actions that are fitting to man, these actions being spelled out distinctly here (i.e. to Noah) but by no means creating here, anew, PERMISSIONS for these actions. God confirms what was already true for man.

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    1. Hi Tony. I am not convinced that eating animals was prohibited before the flood. And Jewish natural law theory does hold that the 7 Noahic laws are from the garden of Eden onwards. More this evening. Tim

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    2. @Tony

      I agree with your interpretation. If God could declare eating meat as immoral prior to the Flood (which literally happened and literally covered the whole globe) but then suddenly make it moral after the flood, that opens up Euthyphro's Dilemma (does that mean sometime in the future God could issue a new edition of 10 commandments with the 6th saying "thou must commit adultery", making holy matrimony a polyamorous institution?). Rather, He was just confirming man's dominion over the animals that Adam originally had in the garden of Eden, not changing natural law.

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    3. Interesting: I came across this literary / theological essay today, found it worthwhile even while I continue to look into it further.

      here, by Kenneth Mulzek, 2001.

      For the issue of eating meat before Noah, he seems to just assume 9:3 is new permission. But for 9:6, he makes a linguistic point that is also theological: it is set up as as an A:B:C - C':B':A' chiasm.

      A The one who pours out C' by man

      B the blood B' his blood

      C of man A' will be poured out.

      You read the left hand column first, and the the right hand column, to get 9:6a.

      He simply assumes the agency version of the preposition, "by man" in C', so he doesn't directly address the issue Tim dealt with.

      But he does raise an interesting sidelight: Exodus later fills in a blank that is here left unstated in 9:5: what about an animal that takes a man's life? God later tells the Israelites to kill any ox that gores a person to death, and one can read this as indicating that He intends to use humans as his agent in demanding that ox's blood. And there is no special reason one should avoid reading that backwards into Genesis 9:5 as completing the thought by including the direct agent. But rather obviously, there is a parallel in 9:6 in terms of WHO is to kill the murder. It makes no sense for God to warn that He will "avenge" a man who is killed by an animal - meaning, through men as his delegate for carrying out the vengeance - and then to use the very same constructions in 9:6 but there to not mean that He will use men as his agents and delegates for the vengeance He will exact. That's not plausible.

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  10. One of the curiosities in the logic of our panniculate pontiff, is how it is that he can simultaneously affirm by implication that rule-of-law polities are objectively superior to the political sh1tholes from which which "refugees" ostensibly flee, while insisting on admittance policies that undermine and wreck that legal framework; policies that destroy the very rules of governance that make these polities superior, and gives the inhabitants reason to trust or at least to forebear with one another.

    Perhaps it is the lingering magic of Peronist illiberalism that is supposed to solve this dilemma. Though what duty those whose lives and well being are being undermined are supposed to feel for the hollowed out sham of the legal system which remains, is anyone's guess. I mean Frankie arrogates to himself the right to, and then does take a dump in your swimming pool, and you are supposed not only to tolerate it, but to still maintain it for him at his discretion ... endlessly?

    It is more likely I think, that eventually those who are capable of defending both themselves and others, will react with a hostile shrug and decide just to defend themselves and important others, and to let the liberated asylum inmates and behaviorally incontinent rat-fight themselves into oblivion.

    Like say, letting repeat domestic violence calls from the neighborhood notorious couple go unanswered. Or just picking up the corpses of the repeat OD cases, and save EMS for real emergencies.

    As for the progressive boasts that they can themselves manage a civilization in an uncooperative world, we have only to look around at the eventual fruits of their unmitigated reigns.

    But, like watching Joe Biden's real life attempt to prove up on his brag that we should watch him perform ...< i>"Look at how he [Trump] steps [cautiously] and look at how I step. Watch how I run up ramps and he stumbles down ramps... "
    as he then repestedly falls on his face while boarding the stairs to Air Force One, the only sane response is to shrug, and to laugh.

    So go ahead and build something worthwhile Frankie; or protect just one truly helpless person, like those Christians who you have sold out in China, maybe.

    Go ahead Frankie. Let's see you run up that ramp.

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  11. The DP brings out a lot of weirdness here. I

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  12. A mere link to this might have been more appropriate as an article like this settles nothing from a Christian perspective. The issue it the interpretation of the Church's scriptures, a subject upon which medieval Jewish sources can hardly be consulted. Many Christians of the first centuries obviously read and understood the OT texts in the originals of their time, which were no longer available to anyone of any religion in the Middle Ages. The Church's word is what counts.

    As for "Atrahasis", better leave superstitious accounts out of the picture.

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    1. I am not Catholic, and I am happy to let Tony, Ed, or other Catholic scholars correct me if I misrepresent the Catholic view of interpretation here. I think that you are wrong on this point. Jerome consulted the best Jewish scholarship he could avail himself of to produce the Vulgate translation. Aquinas respected and learned from Maimonides and other medieval Jewish scholars. Numerous Catholic scholars today including O'Connor, of Waltke and O'Connor, work in tandem with Jews and Protestants in doing various types of exegetical work on texts. I don't think that because a lexicon or a grammar or a commentary was written by a Jew or a Protestant means that Catholics can dismiss it as irrelevant. It would not have magisterial binding authority, of course, but you seem to be working on a false disjunction here. Tony, Ed, am I right on this?

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    2. Tim is correct, as far as I understand it. The original Hebrew scriptures were written by Hebrews in their own original language. The exact meanings and senses of the language, especially in difficult or ambiguous phrasings, would have been best grasped by those who lived in that language and the culture that grew with the language. It is implausible to think we could be confident of the precise connotations (and layers of meanings) of a phrase without bothering to reference Hebrew experts themselves.

      To give another argument: as I understand it, the Catholic idea of pulling out the figurative senses of a passage rests on first understanding the "literal sense", though by literal sense here what is meant is the primary sense intended by the human author who first wrote the texts. Hence it is necessary to first ask what that human author meant, and seeking to understand that necessarily means understanding also the language he was employing and the historical, cultural, and literary context that he operated within. (And here "cultural" includes the religious and philosophical milieu as well as other aspects.) This implies working with all of the sources that inform us of these details, which necessarily will be Hebrew sources to a large extent.

      Personally, I would also think that precisely because the Hebrews themselves were first responsible for collecting the texts and considering them inspired "scripture", God was working in their midst not only to produce them but also to understand them at least in part. We cannot dismiss their views of their own religious productions that came down to us AS scripture because they themselves considered them as scripture. Salvation is from the Jews not merely because Christ was physically born of the Jews, but also because God used them to produce prophecies that told them of the Messiah, and it is because of those prophecies that at least some of them were ready to receive Jesus as the Messiah. We cannot wholly discount their own understandings of the scriptures which was God's means of preparing them.

      Finally, there is no reason to be dismayed that an essay doesn't "settle" a question: it is enough if it advances the state of knowledge in the subject, that's worthwhile in itself. Normally, the Church's magisterium settles a question only after there has been a fair amount of discussion of it, and that implies having people propose possible solutions and discuss them at length.

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    3. Who is scholar Tony? He frequently writes with apparant knowledge and authority in this combox, and you appeal to him - and Ed - above for support , but we do not know who he actually is. Does he have an academic position and website like you and Ed?

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    4. Anonymous,
      The use of the Atrahasis Epic was definitely not as a resource that tells us about what happens in the flood. There were flood accounts written in the Ancient Near East before Genesis was written. Gilgamesh, the hero of one of these, lived some time before 2,400 B.C., and there were already legends about him before 2,000 B.C., well before the time of Moses (let alone an author long after Moses as most historical-critics would place the authorship of Genesis). Genesis 6-9 may very well have been written to counter the theology behind works such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Atrahasis Epic, Zuisudra, etc. Tikvah Frymer-Kensky and others have argued this; I perhaps should have made that clearer in my article. I did note that the reason for the flood in Genesis strongly contrasts to that of the Atrahasis Epic. Genesis, intentionally or not, counters the Atrahasis Epic.
      The same concept is likely true for Genesis 1:1-2:3 or Gen 1:1-2:4a; various features of it seem purposely to combat some version of the Creation Epic whose longest extant version we have is often referred to as The Enuma Elish. This approach is entirely compatible with traditional Catholicism, Judaism, or Evangelicalism. (Scholars prior to 1800 did not have access to these sources; now that we do, we can appreciate a dimension to texts in Genesis that we were unable to before.) The validity of this approach is not a matter of dispute between parties who interpret Genesis 9:6 differently.

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    5. "Scholar" Tony: I am a lifelong Catholic who has only this to recommend me: I had the benefit of thoroughly solid grounding in Aristotle / Thomas for my undergrad degree; got a post-grad degree in math, and have spent decades since then studying Catholic philosophy and theology as an avocation and interacting with dozens of professors in that pursuit.

      I have no authority to speak definitively, and I usually pepper my comments with plenty of "it seems to me" and "arguably" and "and I understand it" and such to indicate no claim to putting out an authoritative position. Some few here find my comments useful, others not. I have read and re-read St. Thomas's Summa Theologica enough that I can often lay my fingers on a point that he makes there when needed for these discussions, but then I am relying on Thomas, not my own position. I offer his comments as authoritative because the Church generally considers his comments authoritative (in a special way appropriate for the Doctors of the Church.)

      I lay no claim to professional standing as such in making comments here.

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    6. @Tim.
      The problem with using Jewish experts is that they no longer have the OT texts which the early Church had. More importantly, they are not able to interpret OT texts with authority because those texts are no longer "theirs" in the truest sense. Your depiction of how the OT was collected and the notion that its theology of creation was drawn from pagan myths is manifestly untrue.

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    7. I did not say nor do I believe that Genesis got its theology of creation from pagan myths. Genesis expressed its theology of creation in such a way as to polemicize against pagan myths. That is a huge difference! Tim

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    8. More importantly, they are not able to interpret OT texts with authority

      One does not need to "rely" on them as being so-called "authoritative" (in the way the bishops have authority), in order to "rely" on them in the way we rely on subject-matter experts who have expertise without having authority to settle a religious debate. Grammarians can speak with expertise on grammar without settling a theology question that hinges on grammar as one aspect. Poetry experts can speak with expertise on an aspect of poetry without claiming authority to settle a debate. Historians can speak on history in relation to Genesis without asserting a definitive and binding position about the historical sense of Genesis.

      because those texts are no longer "theirs" in the truest sense.

      I disagree: a Jew who has become a Christian can claim the Old Testament as "his" just as well as any other Christian. A Jew of the 2nd century AD would be in the same boat. The truth that is IN the Old Testament portion of Scripture truly points to Christ, and a Jew at the time of Christ who believed in Christ as the Messiah because he recognized in Christ the fulfillment of the prophecies would have been a Jew living his proper role of faith in God and believing in God's inspired Scriptures. It's not because they were (at that time) Jewish that later Jews fell away from that faith, it is because those later Jews failed in being good Jews, failed in truly embracing the Scriptures as they had, and failed to believe what God had revealed through the Jews. Christianity is the same true faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, come into fruition and full flower with Christ, in whom they believed.

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    9. @Tim
      Your comment that the pagan myths precede Genesis and the rest of the OT seems to imply this. What of the tradition of unrecorded revelation embodied in the Patriarchs, Melchisedech, going back to Adam himself? This is not the myth and falsehood anthropologist "theologians" attempt to deal with. I would argue that the pagan myths are distortions, "answers to" and "purgings" of true traditions of revelation, not vice versa, as you seemed to suggest above.

      @Tony
      What has been at issue here is not merely grammar, but religious interpretation, in which case, medieval Jewish scholars do not have the authority of bishops in agreement with the Pope. As for grammar, Hebrew was not their mother tongue (it was not even the mother tongue of Jews of the first century). I roundly reject the notion that medieval Jews whose mother tongues were European languages or Arabic were necessarily more expert than European scholars of the New Israel. Tendentiousness resulting from ideas opposed to orthodox interpretation of the OT needs to be considered as a factor intruding even on a supposedly neutral area like grammar.

      Obviously, the medieval Jewish scholars were not Jews who had become Christians. The Hebrews of the OT who followed followed their religion properly were "Christians" in anticipation, of course. When many of their descendants rejected the purpose of their religion after hearing of Christ, they did not become "bad Jews"; they started another religion. The use of the word Jewish to describe two religions will remain an eternal source of confusion, requiring the explanatory note I have just made. It's far clearer to refer to Judaism as a religion invented in the first century. What is not fully realised is that the apocrypha and heterodox ideas that led to the rejection of Christ among many Hebrews has continued unabated till today. Judaism is not the religion of the OT, minus Christ. Out of the question.

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    10. I roundly reject the notion that medieval Jews whose mother tongues were European languages or Arabic were necessarily more expert than European scholars of the New Israel.

      I grant that medieval Jews would not necessarily have a greater expertise in ancient Hebrew than other European scholars. But those same medieval Jews, if they had grown up from infancy hearing ancient Hebrew being used in synagogue and in daily prayers, and in daily bon mots and quips and other cultural references, at least probably had one advantage over other Europeans in coming to ancient Hebrew in an attempt to comprehend it as the ancient Israelites understood it. They also had at least one disadvantage, in having also grown up within a set of religious views formulated (after Christ) expressly to discredit the Christian view of the Scriptures with respect to Christ and to Christ's teachings. It is not obvious to me that the effect of this advantage and this disadvantage wholly nullify each other, such that said medieval Jew can have nothing at all to teach us about ancient Hebrew.

      Judaism is not the religion of the OT, minus Christ.

      Fair enough. But even atheists and other non-Christians can discover valid truths of ancient history, and of ancient languages and ancient poetry and ancient prose. Nothing makes it impossible that these persons could have something valid to say about ancient Hebrew that they did not receive from Christians. We would have to test their arguments, and examine how their thesis fits into the overall pattern of truth, but we do that to a similar degree also with Christians asserting such new theses. All truth is, in effect, God's own truth, whoever comes to it first (among humans).

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    11. Anonymous,
      You seem to have misunderstood me because I agree with you that the pagan mythic accounts are distortions of what happened.
      The events which Genesis gives accounts of occurred before the pagan mythic accounts of those events. SOME of those pagan mythic are earlier than Moses let alone some author later than Moses. This does not negate God giving Moses or whomever special revelation (whether directly or through a chain of tradition whose first tradent precedes the pagan mythic accounts). The Genesis account then expresses the special revelation in such a way as to polemicize against earlier written accounts than Genesis. In addition to giving information about early events, Genesis serves an apologetic function by attacking these mythic accounts that people at that time would have been familiar with.

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    12. @Tim.
      It's not much of a concession to state that the events recounted in genesis occurred before pagan myths as there weren't any pagans in the Garden of Eden or during the creation of the world. Revelation (there is only one kind properly speaking, and that is supernatural - our use of reason is not the speech of God, unless one take up the mad occasionalist nonsense espoused by Malebranche, which practically denies human action and thought) did not begin with Moses. Revelation, and its tradition preceded both Moses and the pagans. Revelation about the creation of the world and the true worship of God for example, was a matter of tradition - from Adam to Moses. That is our faith.

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    13. @Tony
      When it comes to religious truth, some humans are more equal than others if they speak with the authority of the Church. To the extent that grammar and other "scientific" fields have religious implications, the Church has the last word. The "science" must reexamine where its mistake is if it is at variance. Obviously the Church has always taken account of objections of all kinds on all grounds, but its science, theology, as Saint Thomas writes at the start of the ST, is the greatest and surest of the sciences. The Church is, by that same theological token, the only authority in this science. Therefore, these are scientific discussions that end, something that is not the case in any other science. Roma locuta; causa finita.

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    14. Anonymous,
      Is it your position that an account in Genesis on the flood could NOT have been written partially to polemicize against pagan mythic accounts? I don't see that as being a required Catholic position.

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    15. Anonymous,
      It is not incompatible for Revelation about the flood to be a matter of tradition from Noah to Moses and for Moses to have written about the flood in such a way as to polemicize against pagan mythic accounts. Your objection fails.
      Your other objection, that of using non-Catholic sources in making a grammatical argument, even if it were a tenet of Catholic hermeneutics (which I doubt) would apply to Mastnjak's article as much as to my response.

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    16. @Tim
      I think all accounts that are part of the tradition of revelation of God speaking, go back to the beginning of humanity, and therefore precede and are not conditioned by fantasies and distorsions. Once we enter the territory of competing human myths (whether or not one, "from the outside" wishes to attribute "divine sanction" to one of them), we have abandoned divine revelation going back to the beginning of humanity. The implication is that for eons, man was left to his own musings, abandoned by God, who has always spoken in a supernatural way. That is what Catholicism teaches.

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    17. Anonymous,
      Parts of the New Testament epistles are explicitly written to combat false teachings that preceded the writing of said epistles (but did not precede the ministry or teaching of Jesus and then of the apostles). Is that not so?

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    18. @Tim
      Thanks for your views. I can only repeat my last comment. The important is that revelation and its tradition is not compatible with the anthropological approach whose pseudo-science seeks to reduce this tradition to an interplay of Middle-Eastern myths. I think many Catholic scholars make a huge mistake by descending to dialogue with the myths and the pseudo-science with an attitude of respect.

      We are dealing here, not just with false teachings, but false histories. A better comparison would be the Gospels versus the "Gospel of Peter".

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  13. Anonymous on September 20,
    Thank you for your comments. You are correct that God’s response to Cain cannot mean that capital punishment is wrong. God later commands the Israelites to institute capital punishment so it cannot be intrinsically wrong. You are also correct that Cain knows murder is wrong. He says that his punishment is greater than he can bear so he has a concept of punishment and, as you say, the natural law is already understood by society (such as it is) at that time. Philosophically, if these Noahide laws are rationally discernible by all human beings and obligatory for them then they must have applied before the flood. Exegetically, there are numerous pointers that Genesis 9:1-17 is a reaffirmation (and slight modification) of G-d’s creation purpose for humankind in Genesis 1 and 2. In Genesis 2:16-17, just as in Genesis 9:2-4, there is a permission involving eating followed by a restriction of that permission. The Jews have a midrashic commentary on Genesis 2:16 in which they see the principles of the Noahic covenant implied in what God required of humans in the garden of Eden.
    Tony,
    As usual, you have some excellent comments. In my classes at Azusa, I use Genesis 9:6a to teach them how chiasm in poetry works. I did not have time to elaborate how discourse analysis of poetry favors understanding Genesis 9:6a in the traditional manner also, but does not completely rule out the alternative construction favored by Mastnjak. The principle of proportionality underlying standard retributive justice is affirmed beautifully in poetry—this is poetic justice indeed as a number of scholars have commented on this verse. Thanks for the link to the article by Mulzac; I had not read it before. Mulzac is one of many who point out laws where the animal involved in an offense is killed by human hands. My article does not by any means exhaust the evidence for why the traditional understanding of Genesis 9:6a is preferable.

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  14. ¹"AnonymousSeptember 22, 2023 at 8:43 PM
    The DP brings out a lot of weirdness here. I "


    Interesting remark. Expand your horizons by thinking of it in this way:

    Inasmuch as the issue is literally a matter of life and death; and, in this instance coupled to matters of national sovereignty, other directedness, and the presumptive duties of some persons to form, maintain, or accept civil or social relations with others, it is only natural that the boundaries of relevant discourse will be stretched as well.

    Thus, the bigger and more intrusive are the demands made on one by some putative authority, the more proportionate a critical and even scathing look at the moral standing of that same authority, will be.

    Of course maybe you were making reference to the topic of moral vegetarianism being introduced. Nonetheless, more broadly, the same principle would apply.

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    1. DNW
      "The boundaries of relevant discourse will be stretched." They were indeed. Hence the weirdness.

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  15. WCB

    "Has the image lost its force? Maybe. "
    - DNW

    When ACA became law, thanks right wing media, it was controversial. Googling for ACA approval, it was about 50 - 50. Now 60% approve of ACA, 40% do not. Heavily split by party lines. So it looks like a mere meme is not forceful.

    And with the GOP Freedom caucus attempting a government shut down to force gutting Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, ACA and other safetynet programs, future memes will make that GOP strategy unpopular as election days approach.

    "Death Panels" GOP Freedom Caucus style. It is going to get ugly. The GOP opposed all these programs the day they were announced starting with FDR. They are back to old tricks.

    WCB

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  16. Yikes. Devastating. Church Life Journal sometimes struggles with quality control. Thanks for the wonderful article and correction.

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  17. God states that those who shed a man’s blood, he too will have his blood shed and this applies to all men, those who murder and those performing executions. "For in the image of God
    He made man." and the image of God is love and mercy.

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  18. Well. Every killer should be killed. Pretty straight on. But, wait: physicians whose errors contribute to patient deaths? How may we account for that? Plucking out an eye;extracting a tooth just does not seem to specify gravity. No. All crime is complex now. Yes.

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