Wednesday, December 4, 2013

Dude, where’s my Being?


It must be Kick-a-Neo-Scholastic week.  Thomas Cothran calls us Nietzscheans and now my old grad school buddy Dale Tuggy implicitly labels us atheists.  More precisely, commenting on the view that “God is not a being, one among others… [but rather] Being Itself,” Dale opines that “this is not a Christian view of God, and isn’t even any sort of monotheism.  In fact, this type of view has always competed with the monotheisms.”  Indeed, he indicates that “this type of view – and I say this not to abuse, but only to describe – is a kind of atheism.”  (Emphasis in the original.) 

Atheism?  Really?  What is this, The Twilight Zone?  No, it’s a bad Ashton Kutcher movie (if you’ll pardon the redundancy), with metaphysical amnesia replacing the drug-induced kind -- Heidegger’s “forgetfulness of Being” meets Dude, Where’s My Car? 

Now, to be fair, Dale isn’t directly commenting on Neo-Scholasticism, specifically, nor even on Thomism more generally.  He’s responding to Paul Tillich as channeled through James McGrath.  All the same, while (as I have noted before myself) Tillich got certain things seriously wrong, he is from the point of view of traditional Christian theology -- and certainly from the point of view of Thomism and other forms of Scholasticism -- spot on correct to hold that “God is not a being, one among others… [but rather] Being Itself.”  As Orthodox blogger Fr. Aidan Kimel remarks:

I was surprised by [Tuggy’s] statement.  Right off the top of my head, I can think of three Christian theologians of antiquity who identified divinity and Being—St Gregory of Nazianzus, St Augustine of Hippo, and St Thomas Aquinas.  I can also think of three Christian theologians who preferred to speak of God as “beyond Being”—Dionysius, St Maximus the Confessor, and St Gregory Palamas. And not one had a problem identifying their God with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

(By the way, don’t miss Fr. Kimel’s old seminarians’ joke while you’re over there.)  Fr. Kimel goes on to note that Dale is evidently committed to what Brian Davies calls “theistic personalism” (and what Norman Geisler calls “neo-theism”) rather than to the classical theism that has traditionally been at the core of Christian (and Jewish, and Muslim, and purely philosophical) theology.  (Fr. Kimel offers some further remarks on theistic personalism in a follow-up post.)

Dale, for his part, essentially confirms this characterization of his position.  Indeed, he sounds positively Feserian in the brash confidence of his assertions, glibly averring in the combox of a follow-up post of his own: “Feser’s ‘theistic personalism’ is just what most philosophers call ‘theism,’ i.e. monotheism.”

Now, if by “most philosophers” Dale means “most contemporary philosophers who subscribe to Faith and Philosophy and Philosophia Christi, and who hang out in the faculty lounge at Calvin College or Biola,” he may well be right, and by a comfortable margin.  But, ecumenical guy that he is, I’m sure he wouldn’t want to leave out readers of ACPQ and The Thomist, or the lounge dwellers at Fordham or CUA.  And when we factor those votes in, things start to look more like the 2000 presidential election rather than the 2008.  Then there is the consideration that the American Philosophical Association has, I believe, recently declared it discriminatory to leave metabolically challenged philosophers out of one’s Appeals to Authority-cum-Majority.  And when we factor in all the dead guys, it’s a Reagan-in-‘84-style landslide for the classical theists, both in quantity and quality.  We classical theists have Plato, Aristotle, Philo of Alexandria, Plotinus, Augustine, Boethius, Anselm, Maimonides, Avicenna, Averroes, Aquinas, Scotus, and about a gazillion other Scholastics, Neo-Platonists, and Aristotelians.  Not to mention a lot of early Protestants, and not a few later ones.  Dale’s got Plantinga, Swinburne, Hartshorne, and the SCP email list.  Really smart guys and gals, to be sure, but… well, there it is. 

Here’s what else I think Dale’s got: a bad case of presentism.  (And like Dale, I say this not to abuse, but only to describe!)  This presentism is obvious enough from the straight-faced, flat assertion that God-as-Being-Itself is “not a Christian view of God” and indeed “is a kind of atheism.”  If your standard of what counts as “a Christian view” is the conventional wisdom in contemporary American academic philosophy of religion circles, then I suppose such a claim could pass the laugh test.   But if your standard is what most Christian philosophers and theologians have held historically, then Dale’s assertion is just a howler.  One would think that someone who makes a claim that implies that the position of (say) Thomas Aquinas -- whose favored description of God was ipsum esse subsistens or Subsistent Being Itself -- was “not a Christian view” and indeed amounts to “a kind of atheism,” would do so just a little more tentatively.

Another indication of presentism is what Dale says when he offers a philosophical critique of the notion of Being Itself.  He writes:

“Being itself” is of dubious intelligibility. When I think of all the beings in space and time, to me, they do not seem to be one whole anything. Nor does there some [sic] to be some stuff of which all are made. It positively seems possible that there be no things in space and time and [sic] all. Were this to be so, would Being Itself still be there? I assume not. If not, then Being Itself would seem to be a contingent and dependent entity. If such a thing existed, it would seem that it’s [sic] existence would be explained, if it is explained, by something else.

But even if we grant that “Being Itself” is a meaningful term, it’s not clear why we should believe in such a thing. We can of course consider appeals to mystical experiences

End quote.  Now, anyone familiar with Thomism, Neo-Platonism, and classical metaphysics more generally is bound to find all of this as mystifying as Dale finds Being Itself.  It just bears no interesting relationship whatsoever to what philosophers in these traditions actually mean by “Being Itself.”  Dale seems to think that the notion of Being Itself is the notion of the collection of all the individual spatiotemporal beings there are taken together (“all the beings in space and time” making up “one whole”); or that it is the “stuff” out of which they are all made. 

This is sort of like saying that Plato’s Form of the Good is the collection of individual good things within time and space taken as one big lump, or a kind of “stuff” out of which such good things are made; or that triangularity is identical with the collection of actual triangles, or with the ink, graphite, chalk, etc., with which we draw triangles.  This would, of course, be a ludicrous travesty of the notion of a Form or a universal.  Not that Being Itself is a form or universal -- it isn’t.  But a Platonic Form is a far better first approximation than anything that seems to occur to Dale.  Indeed, of all the four causes -- formal, material, efficient, and final -- Dale has picked precisely the one (material cause) on which no Neo-Platonic, Aristotelian, or Scholastic metaphysician would model Being Itself!

For Aquinas, it is in terms of efficient and final cause, especially, that we are to think of Being Itself, insofar as God is our first cause and last end.  And here we come to Dale’s astounding remark that “it’s not clear why we should believe in such a thing.”  As if the various Neo-Platonic, Aristotelian, and Thomistic arguments for God’s existence had never been written!  And as if these arguments for the existence of that which is Being Itself were not at the very same time the answer to the question of what it means to say that there is such a thing as Being Itself.  For in fact the two questions cannot, for the classical metaphysician, be separated. 

To follow out the logic of the Aristotelian theory of act and potency is (the Aristotelian maintains) to see why there must be (and to see what it means to say there must be) a purely actual cause of the actualization of all potentiality.  To follow out the logic of the Neo-Platonic analysis of composition and multiplicity is (the Neo-Platonist maintains) to see why there must be (and to see what it means to say there must be) a source of all reality which is absolutely simple or non-composite and necessarily unique.  To follow out the logic of the Thomistic analysis of essence and existence is (so the Thomist maintains) to see why there must be (and to see what it means to say there must be) a cause of the existence of things whose essence just is existence.  And all of these arguments have the implication that the ultimate explanation of things cannot in principle be “a being” among other beings but Being Itself.  (I’ve defended such arguments in several places, e.g. here, here, here, here, and here.)

Dale has to know that arguments of this sort exist, and yet he writes as if no one has ever given an argument for the existence of, or an account of the meaning of talk about, Being Itself, other than perhaps an appeal to mystical experience.  It’s as if he thought: “The notion of ‘Being Itself’ doesn’t fit anything that pops into my head as I write this blog post.  Nor do I remember hearing it talked about in any of the papers I sat in on at the last APA meeting.  Nor do I much feel like reading a bunch of Neo-Platonic and Thomist stuff.  So, the notion of Being Itself is of dubious intelligibility. Q.E.D.” 

In the combox of this particular post of Dale’s, a couple of his readers -- including one who sympathizes with his views -- implore him to grapple seriously with the arguments of Thomists. In response to the first, Dale writes:

Would it make an sense to ask such a being [i.e. Pure Actuality] a question? Argue with it? Could it communicate its thoughts to us? Could such a being love humans so much, that he sent his Son to be a sacrifice for our sin?

I take it, the answer is, No. Such a being can’t be affected, can’t respond. Can’t intend to communicate, literally can’t feel compassion or intentionally do anything. I take it, then, that such a “God” is a rival ultimate being to the God of the Bible, the heavenly Father.

End quote.  As if Thomists hadn’t heard, and answered, such objections many times over!  (See especially, among recent analytic philosophers of religion, the work of Brian Davies.  I’ve addressed such issues in some of the posts collected here.)

In response to the second reader -- who agrees with Dale but is unsatisfied with a glib dismissal and asks him actually to engage with the Thomist analysis of being -- Dale writes:

Honestly… past experience has made me wary of diving into that particular philosophical mud pit.  And time and energy are finite.

Well.  Hard to know what to say in response to that, other than to confirm for the reader that, yes, that came from a Christian philosopher’s combox and not (say) Jerry Coyne’s.

Nor do Dale’s responses (or lack thereof) to the arguments of the other side alone leave something to be desired.  He seems utterly oblivious to the grave difficulties facing his own, theistic personalist or neo-theist, point of view.  Consider his description of God as “a self” and his explanation of what this amounts to:

a self – roughly, a being with a point of view, knowledge, and will – which needn’t be human. An alien, a god, a spirit, a ghost. So, thinking of a God as a self needn’t get anywhere near true anthropomorphism (e.g. God is a dude with a beard who lives on a mountain). 

The trouble with this is that it simply misses the point entirely to think that one has sidestepped the problems classical theists are calling attention to merely by avoiding characterizing God as “a dude with a beard who lives on a mountain.”  The real problem is what Dale does admit to, namely calling God “a self” and “a God.”  Part of the problem here is the stuff about “having a point of view.”  God doesn’t have a “point of view”; that utterly trivializes divine knowledge, as if it were merely a matter of being extremely perceptive or maximally well perched.  But put that aside, because contrary to a common misunderstanding, the classical theist does not deny that God is personal.  (See, again, the posts collected here.)  When the theistic personalist says that “God is a person” or “God is a self,” the problem is not so much words like “person” or “self,” but rather the word “a.”  Making of God an instance of a kind is the key problem.  If God is that, then he is not the ultimate reality, because he will be metaphysically less fundamental than the kind he instantiates, and less fundamental than whatever it is that accounts for the kind’s being instantiated in him. 

Since I’ve addressed this aspect of the dispute between classical theism and theistic personalism at some length in my recent exchange with John Leslie and Robert Lawrence Kuhn, I’ll direct the interested reader to the last installment of that exchange.  Plus, since I like Dale, I don’t want to beat up on him any further. 

Instead I’ll sit back and watch David Bentley Hart do it.  In his recent book The Experience of God, Hart complains that contemporary analytic philosophers have uncritically swallowed the Fregean notion that existence is entirely captured by the existential quantifier; that they have become so dogmatically attached to this supposition that they are unable even properly to understand the arguments of classical metaphysicians vis-à-vis being and essence; and that the whole exercise is in any event metaphysically pointless since we still need to know what makes it the case that “There is an x such that…,” and the Fregean notion of existence simply doesn’t address this question (which is, for the classical metaphysician, the question).  I think he’s largely right on all three counts.  (I say this as someone who was trained as an analytic philosopher, and as someone who has had my own public disagreements with Hart on other matters.)  Too many contemporary philosophers have simply lost sight of the very question of the being of things -- and thereby lost sight, really, of what philosophy is, or so we old-fashioned metaphysicians would say.

I also warmly endorse Hart’s comments on theistic personalism:

Many Anglophone theistic philosophers who deal with these issues today… reared as they have been in a post-Fregean intellectual environment, have effectively broken with classical theistic tradition altogether, adopting a style of thinking that the Dominican philosopher Brian Davies calls theistic personalism.  I prefer to call it monopolytheism myself (or perhaps “mono-poly-theism”), since it seems to me to involve a view of God not conspicuously different from the polytheistic picture of the gods as merely very powerful discrete entities who possess a variety of distinct attributes that lesser entities also possess, if in smaller measure; it differs from polytheism, as far as I can tell, solely in that it posits the existence of only one such being.  It is a way of thinking that suggests that God, since he is only a particular instantiation of various concepts and properties, is logically dependent on some more comprehensive reality embracing both him and other beings.  For philosophers who think in this way, practically all the traditional metaphysical attempts to understand God as the source of all reality become impenetrable…To take a particularly important example: There is an ancient metaphysical doctrine that the source of all things -- God, that is -- must be essentially simple; that is, God cannot possess distinct parts, or even distinct properties, and in himself does not allow even of a distinction between essence and existence… [M]y conviction [is] that the idea is not open to dispute if one believes that God stands at the end of reason’s journey toward the truth of all things; it seems obvious to me that a denial of divine simplicity is tantamount to atheism, and the vast preponderance of metaphysical tradition concurs with that judgment.  And yet there are today Christian philosophers of an analytic bent who are quite content to cast the doctrine aside, either in whole or in part.  (pp. 127-128)

For the reason why a denial of divine simplicity -- which is the core of the theistic personalist critique of classical theism -- is “tantamount to atheism,” see again my recent reply to Leslie and Kuhn.  Suffice it for present purposes to note that if Dale wants to play “pin the atheist label on the fellow Christian,” it is evidently a game made for two.  Or as we Thomists like to say in good Scholastic Latin, nyah nyah

476 comments:

  1. @Scott: So are you saying that you believe a separate, Platonic form of health is present in John, Mary, and food? And this whole business of discussing of the Thomistic doctrine of analogy is ultimately something that you're not that interested in? I wonder if in the end, despite all his protestations to the contrary, that's really guller's (and Josh's) position also.

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  2. @David M:

    "So are you saying that you believe a separate, Platonic form of health is present in John, Mary, and food?"

    Not quite, and at any rate I wouldn't locate any such forms in a realm of their own rather than in the divine intellect. But I may (in fact I don't know) mean a bit more by "formal identity" than Aquinas did. I think that when the same term can be predicated of two subjects, it's at least sometimes the case that in some literal sense they have something in common rather than just that we arrive at the same concept in our intellect when we abstract the apparently common factor—and, moreover, I don't see that this view has any significant consequences for Thomism. It's not clear to me whether Aquinas himself agreed with it, but if he didn't, he was at least skirting the edges of nominalism/conceptualism.

    "And this whole business of discussing of the Thomistic doctrine of analogy is ultimately something that you're not that interested in?"

    Not at all. The point you're questioning is a side point with little if any consequence for the main line of the discussion.

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  3. . . . as far as I can see, anyway. If you (or anyone else) thinks it has far-reaching consequences for the Thomistic doctrine of analogous predication, I'm certainly open to argument on the subject.

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  4. Michael,

    I think you were on the right track from the get go, personally, but I guess grappling with different understandings of all the terms involved led to a bit of confusion. Other than that I don't see much else to explain--

    Dguller,

    If God is his wisdom by divine simplicity, then how can his wisdom ever be present in a creature at all? To say that it is a limited kind of wisdom implies that there is something beyond the limit that is not present within the creature.

    Well, a stab at this--I think we can know that His wisdom is in us, separate from knowing how this is possible, given such and such as you note.

    If I were to try to think about how, though, I might analogize it to something like light, in that as humans, we "receive" the entire spectrum of it, while only experiencing a small part of it (visible wavelengths). However, we still know that there is more than what we see, though strictly speaking we are denied access to it. I dunno, it's rough, but that's how I'd start to think about the possibility question.

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  5. @ Scott

    While he’s not exactly Aquinas, David Oderberg said the following in the 27th footnote of section 4 in his book Real Essentialism.

    “I say that they [universals] exist in the mind rather than that they are merely conceived of in the mind as abstract, because this real existence is required for the possibility of knowledge. I cannot pursue that topic here”

    Also, if I remember right, Gyula Klima said something along the same lines at some point, so something like your understanding is not unfounded in Thomistic circles, if not in St. Thomas himself.

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  6. dguller:

    Participation justifies particular cases of analogical predicating. But it is not necessary to justify or explain the theory of analogy -- whose original roots, in fact, are not Neoplatonic. I'm not claiming that they have nothing to do with each other; I'm saying that an inference from ontology to analogical predication (which can be rigorous) is a vastly stronger and more reliable inference than an inference from analogical predication to ontology (which is only an argument from signs), and that the theory of analogical predication does not itself depend on the metaphysics of participation. You can't go both ways with equal facility; the direction is being -> understanding -> naming, and the ontology isn't going to be something that can simply be read off the way we name things. Likewise, I'm not saying that participation isn't relevant to the case of God and creatures, but that the case of God and creatures is merely one type of case to which the theory of analogy applies, and its metaphysics should not be conflated with theory of analogy itself.

    ...I don’t see why we cannot also talk about wisdom, independent of its mode of being....

    Sure, we can talk about it -- it's an abstract concept or definition; this involves talking about it divorced from any definite actual application, which would require predication, and thus involves talking about it not in any way that anything actually is wise. To talk about the way things actually are wise, on the other hand, which would be necessary for talking about whether Socrates and God as subjects have anything in common with respect to wisdom, we have to predicate. And when we do, assuming we are speaking truly, what God and Socrates have in common with respect to wisdom is that they both have something to do with wisdom as such, wisdom itself, God as being it and Socrates as participating it. So the predication will accordingly be only analogical. And, again, we see there is no need to talk about this third kind of wisdom as something shared by God and Socrates; what is shared by God and Socrates is that 'wise' as applied to Socrates is ordered to 'wise' as applied to God, as a meaning qualified and derivative is ordered to something unqualified and underivative.

    And it is precisely this wisdom that is present to both God and Socrates, and it is precisely this wisdom that grounds and justifies the likeness between the two as derived from their causal relationship.

    Again, your suggestion is otiose; divine wisdom or wisdom itself is the common element, since it is part of the predicated meaning of all other wisdom, assuming again that we are not speaking falsehoods. The meaning common between the two predicates is wise(a), because wise(a) is wise(a) and wise(b) is a term that as predicated is implicitly ordered to wise(a). Your interpretation actually gets us immediately into infinite regress due to the Third Man problem.

    What justifies the use of wisdom in both cases is just our reasons for thinking that our definition of 'wise' applies to each. The reason this isn't univocal is that in actual predication there is an implicit ordering of its predication in one case to its predication in the other, because our reasons for saying 'wise' of both also imply that saying that God is wise and Socrates is wise is similar to saying the tailor sews and his sewing machine sews: the latter is a qualified derivative use of the term that is justified in this case because the sewing machine participates in the activity of the tailor.

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  7. Analogy in language is how we talk about analogy in being. They must parallel one another, I think, or else there is a radical disconnect that compromises the entire reason for Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy at all, i.e. to have positive knowledge of some kind about God himself.

    'Analogy in being', if not taken to be analogy in language about being, is a metonymy, a figure of speech, for the metaphysics of participation, given that analogical predication is indeed appropriate to cases of participation. This does not require a parallel -- the claim that language and parallel each other begins crashing immediately into obvious absurdities -- but only a connection. And I've already pointed out: naming is derived from being by way of understanding. It's an asymmetric connection; one cannot reason with equal facility in both directions. And knowledge of God is not Aquinas's reason for the doctrine of analogy: the doctrine of analogy is about naming, and it presupposes what Aquinas has already said about knowing God; and it is based on Aristotelian discussion of the subject matter of metaphysics.

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  8. To add to the point, it's worth recalling the structure of the discussion in the Summa. We start, of course, with causal reasoning to God's existence and the necessary implications of that, then we step back and talk (ST 1.12) about what's involved in knowing God. Only then do we get to naming (ST 1.13), the very first question of which (can we name God?) is answered by saying that we can name God because we have knowledge of Him. We then start looking at the ways names can be applied to God. We only get to analogical predication in article 5. Article 5 refers back to the previous question on divine knowledge as already established: Aquinas is refuting an alternative to analogy on the basis of the fact that he has already established that we have knowledge of God from creatures, and the alternative is inconsistent with that.

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  9. @Timotheos:

    Thanks for the confirmation. I've seen similar statements from other Thomistic writers as well, most recently from James Madden in his recent Mind, Matter, and Nature. So far, though, my attempts to find out just what Aquinas himself thought have not been crowned with success.

    Even if Aquinas never actually discussed this precise question, he may not have needed to. Relevantly, for example, I think his doctrine of analogous predication is robust enough to work either way.

    (Also, by the way, dguller and I have discussed this issue a couple of times before in other threads, so when he made a statement on the subject that I agreed with, I thought it was worth mentioning as much to him.)

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  10. Josh and Brandon and Scott:

    I’ll get around to commenting on your recent remarks later on tonight, I hope, but I just wanted to share some thoughts that I’ve been pondering this weekend.

    I think we all agree that the way that Aquinas talks about analogical predication, there is a primary referent that is present in all the different analogical predications, which would correspond to the res significata, but that primary referent can exist in different modes of being, which would correspond to the different modi significandi.

    I wonder about the different modes of being part of the equation, though. What if we called the primary referent R, the common term of predication P, and the different modes of R, M1 and M2. We would then have the following:

    (1) X is P = X is R-as-M1
    (2) Y is P = X is R-as-M2

    It is because M1 is not M2, but R is the same in (1) and (2), that the predication of P must be analogical. But what if we modified (1) and (2) to the following:

    (3) X is P = X is R-as-some-M
    (4) Y is P = X is R-as-some-M

    In that case, R-as-some-M would have the same R (i.e. R) and the same M (i.e. –as-some-M), which would be univocal predication. Now, you can certainly object that R-as-some-M is too vague and indeterminate to count as univocal predication, which would require precisely the same mode and not some vague and indeterminate mode. But then what about the following:

    (5) Socrates is an animal
    (6) Fido the dog is an animal

    What would be M and R here? R would be the form of animality F(A), I think, and M would be the way in which F(A) exists in each different subject. But is the M of F(A) in (5) the same as the M of F(A) in (6)? I don’t think so. The M of F(A) in (5) is as a rational animal, and the M of F(A) in (6) is as a non-rational animal. In other words, we would have:

    (7) Socrates is an animal = Socrates is F(A)-as-rational
    (8) Fido the dog is an animal = Fido the dog is F(A)-as-non-rational

    In that case, the common R (i.e. F(A)), actually has different M’s (i.e. –as-rational versus –as-non-rational), which would make it a case of analogical predication. Or, you could accept it as univocal predication, which would mean that the M could be indeterminate and vague, after all, which would mean that my (3) and (4) should also be a case of univocal predication.

    So, I have two questions:

    First, can M be vague and indeterminate in some sense, and yet still be univocal predication?

    Second, what would M be in (7) and (8)?

    Thanks.

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  11. I think we all agree that the way that Aquinas talks about analogical predication, there is a primary referent that is present in all the different analogical predications, which would correspond to the res significata, but that primary referent can exist in different modes of being, which would correspond to the different modi significandi.

    I don't agree with this as stated; as I mentioned before, we can't conflate analogical predication and the underlying metaphysics in this way, despite the fact that there are connections between them. When Aquinas says that predication of the name 'god' of God and of things merely opined to be gods is analogically, he's clearly not saying that God and these opined gods share some ontological thing in different modes of being; he's saying that we're predicating the same logical term, as determined by signification, in different ways, such that the predication in the latter case has a reference or orientation to predication in the former case. As he explicitly notes, this is a case where reality and naming are going different ways.

    On the rest, the modes here are ways of predicating terms, not parts of the terms that are predicated. Whether (5) and (6) have the same mode of predication depends entirely on what you are actually trying to say. If we are predicating animal as a genus, which is what we usually would be doing, then the predication is clearly univocal: we're predicating the same term in the same way. We could also be doing other things with it: predicating is something minds do with terms, not something built into the terms themselves.

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  12. Brandon wrote: "Sure, we can talk about it -- it's an abstract concept or definition; this involves talking about it divorced from any definite actual application, which would require predication, and thus involves talking about it not in any way that anything actually is wise."

    Yes! - that's the point I made at the beginning of this discussion before it deviated into my fruitless efforts to correct guller's careless, half-baked textual exegeses.

    guller wrote: "I think we all agree that the way that Aquinas talks about analogical predication, there is a primary referent that is present in all the different analogical predications, which would correspond to the res significata, but that primary referent can exist in different modes of being, which would correspond to the different modi significandi."

    As with Scott and Josh, this language of 'present in' seems misleading to me. (Josh wrote: "I think we can know that His wisdom is in us, separate from knowing how this is possible, given such and such as you note." This way of putting it sounds too much like God's wisdom is an accident belonging to the wise man. Which in turn seems to imply too much sympathy with an Averroistic position on the intellect, which posits the unity of the intellect in a way that Aquinas strenuously rejects.

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  13. Brandon:

    When Aquinas says that predication of the name 'god' of God and of things merely opined to be gods is analogically, he's clearly not saying that God and these opined gods share some ontological thing in different modes of being; he's saying that we're predicating the same logical term, as determined by signification, in different ways, such that the predication in the latter case has a reference or orientation to predication in the former case.

    And this identifies an issue that I struggle to understand. To me, to say that X is like Y means that X and Y have something in common C. I also think that C must be present in X and Y, although C can be present in different ways.

    It seems that what you are saying is that when it comes to God and creation, there is no common C that is shared between them. There is only R, which is exclusively present in God himself, and is not present in creation at all. It is not the case that R is present in God in a perfect, infinite and unparticipated mode whereas R is present in creation in an imperfect, finite and participated mode. Rather, R is only in God, and creation is only oriented towards or refers to R.

    But if that is true, then how can creation be like God at all? They would have to have something in common in order to have a relation of similarity. If there is an infinite gulf between them such that they have nothing in common, then they are radically different and incommensurable, and thus are not like or similar to one another at all. In that case, we are left with radical negative theology, which Aquinas certainly rejected.

    On the rest, the modes here are ways of predicating terms, not parts of the terms that are predicated. Whether (5) and (6) have the same mode of predication depends entirely on what you are actually trying to say. If we are predicating animal as a genus, which is what we usually would be doing, then the predication is clearly univocal: we're predicating the same term in the same way. We could also be doing other things with it: predicating is something minds do with terms, not something built into the terms themselves.

    So what about (3) and (4)? We are predicating R as existing in some mode of being of both X and Y. If the term for R-as-some-mode-M is “P”, then you are predicating the same term in the same way of both X and Y, which I think would be “clearly univocal”, as you said above.

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  14. To me, to say that X is like Y means that X and Y have something in common C. I also think that C must be present in X and Y, although C can be present in different ways.

    Yes, but we're talking about predications; so the 'something in common' will be something about the meaning that is predicated in common. We might be predicating that commonality of meaning on the basis of our metaphysical analysis; but we might also be predicating on the basis of (to take just one example) the fact that people have false opinions about the metaphysics (as the really divine and divine by opinion case shows), or perhaps in other ways yet.

    It seems that what you are saying is that when it comes to God and creation, there is no common C that is shared between them. There is only R, which is exclusively present in God himself, and is not present in creation at all. It is not the case that R is present in God in a perfect, infinite and unparticipated mode whereas R is present in creation in an imperfect, finite and participated mode. Rather, R is only in God, and creation is only oriented towards or refers to R.

    My point is rather that this is all metaphysics, and that analogical predication has to do with how we apply names or terms to things. Using a term like 'wise' of God (assuming we're doing it correctly), we apply it in an unrestricted way (it's not prediated as an accident, for instance), 'wise' as such or itself; using it of creatures, we are applying it in a way that has an ordering or ratio to this unrestricted 'wise', which 'wise' applied to creatures restricts. This is all that's really happening in the predication itself, regardless of the metaphysics.

    I don't know what your R-as-some-M means. I take it that this is connected with your question about vague modes? But if you're neither definitely predicating R as a genus, or as a species, or as a property, or as an accident, or difference, or as a transcendental, how are you actually saying that R is related to X at all? Is it supposed to be a disjunctive predicate, as the 'some' indicates? Then each disjunct has a different mode of predication.

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  15. My point is rather that this is all metaphysics, and that analogical predication has to do with how we apply names or terms to things. Using a term like 'wise' of God (assuming we're doing it correctly), we apply it in an unrestricted way (it's not prediated as an accident, for instance), 'wise' as such or itself; using it of creatures, we are applying it in a way that has an ordering or ratio to this unrestricted 'wise', which 'wise' applied to creatures restricts. This is all that's really happening in the predication itself, regardless of the metaphysics.

    dguller,
    This is what I was ineffectively trying to say in my Dec 13, 1:53 response to you.

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  16. @David

    As with Scott and Josh, this language of 'present in' seems misleading to me. (Josh wrote: "I think we can know that His wisdom is in us, separate from knowing how this is possible, given such and such as you note." This way of putting it sounds too much like God's wisdom is an accident belonging to the wise man. Which in turn seems to imply too much sympathy with an Averroistic position on the intellect, which posits the unity of the intellect in a way that Aquinas strenuously rejects.

    All I was pointing to by that is the principle of proportionate causality: "whatever is in an effect must be in some way in its cause." Not any other subtle machinations.

    @Brandon

    Using a term like 'wise' of God (assuming we're doing it correctly), we apply it in an unrestricted way (it's not prediated as an accident, for instance), 'wise' as such or itself; using it of creatures, we are applying it in a way that has an ordering or ratio to this unrestricted 'wise', which 'wise' applied to creatures restricts. This is all that's really happening in the predication itself, regardless of the metaphysics.

    I think that's probably what I was trying to say anyway--when we predicated truly, we predicate according to the correct metaphysics. Given that, I'm not seeing the beef.

    @Dguller

    When we predicate animal of Fido and Socrates, we do so univocally because we are able to perfectly abstract the differences (H. Koren) to arrive at a univocal understanding of animality between the two. They don't differ qua animality. They both exhibit material, sensate being according to the same meanings of those terms.

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  17. Brandon:

    Yes, but we're talking about predications; so the 'something in common' will be something about the meaning that is predicated in common. We might be predicating that commonality of meaning on the basis of our metaphysical analysis; but we might also be predicating on the basis of (to take just one example) the fact that people have false opinions about the metaphysics (as the really divine and divine by opinion case shows), or perhaps in other ways yet.

    Let’s say that we are “predicating that commonality of meaning on the basis of our metaphysical analysis”, then. On the basis of a metaphysical analysis, there must be a common C between God and creation, if creation is like God in some way. If there is no C between God and creation, then there is no way that creation can be like God at all, and rather, they are radically and entirely different such that any comparison between the two is impossible, which would preclude any analogical predication, as well.

    I don't know what your R-as-some-M means.

    Josh explained that the common R exists in some particular way or mode of being M, which is what I mean by R-as-some-M.

    I take it that this is connected with your question about vague modes? But if you're neither definitely predicating R as a genus, or as a species, or as a property, or as an accident, or difference, or as a transcendental, how are you actually saying that R is related to X at all?

    That would depend upon what R is. If R is the form of animality, then it would be a genus, and R must exist in some way, i.e. in a rational mode or a non-rational mode. However, if we are talking about God and creation, then R would have to be a transcendental, I think, which would apply to everything that exists, including what exists as beyond the categories.

    Is it supposed to be a disjunctive predicate, as the 'some' indicates? Then each disjunct has a different mode of predication.

    Yes.

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  18. Brandon wrote: Using a term like 'wise' of God (assuming we're doing it correctly), we apply it in an unrestricted way (it's not prediated as an accident, for instance), 'wise' as such or itself; using it of creatures, we are applying it in a way that has an ordering or ratio to this unrestricted 'wise', which 'wise' applied to creatures restricts. This is all that's really happening in the predication itself, regardless of the metaphysics.

    I don't know if guller will object to this, but if he would like to, let me suggest an objection:

    To say "we apply 'wise' in an unrestricted way to God" invites the question, 'unrestricted' in what sense? It would seem that this 'unrestricted' way is precisely a metaphysically 'unrestricted' (unlimited, infinite) way - which, it would seem, is not something we can do "regardless of the metaphysics."

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  19. Josh: "I think we can know that His wisdom is in us, separate from knowing how this is possible, given such and such as you note."

    "All I was pointing to by that is the principle of proportionate causality: "whatever is in an effect must be in some way in its cause." Not any other subtle machinations."

    So to summarize:

    P1: whatever is in an effect must be in some way in its cause.
    P2: wisdom is in man.
    P3: man is an effect of God.
    C1: wisdom must be in some way in God.
    C2: God's wisdom is in us.

    I was with you until C2. The referent of 'God's wisdom' is God's wisdom, not God's wisdom in us.

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  20. (I could clarify: The ultimate referent of 'God's wisdom' is God's wisdom (not God's wisdom in us). The immediate referent is the sense we attach to the term 'God's wisdom,' that is, the concept 'God's wisdom,' by means of which we refer to the reality God's wisdom.)

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  21. @dguller:

    "I think we all agree that the way that Aquinas talks about analogical predication, there is a primary referent that is present in all the different analogical predications, which would correspond to the res significata, but that primary referent can exist in different modes of being, which would correspond to the different modi significandi."

    Well, hang on—I wouldn't accept this analysis of every possible case of predication even if I didn't have any quibbles with it with regard to the range of cases we've been discussing. This approach was a reply to your own John/food/health example (and one or two others along the same lines) and it was intended to show why your example didn't undermine the Thomistic account of analogical predication.

    The point was that in predicating the term "healthy" of the two subjects John and food, respectively, we're saying that John himself is in a state of health, and that food is a cause of health (and therefore "contains" health in whatever way causes contain their effects); thus we must be predicating "healthy" of them in two different ways. (If we were predicating it of John in the same way we were predicating it of food, for example, we'd be saying that John would make a nutritious snack.)

    It's the act of predication that matters here. The reason we're talking about the different ways in which health is (as we've been putting it but Aquinas would not) "present in" John and food is that this is a clue to the different ways we predicate of John and food a term that signifies health. That analysis, even if sound just as it stands, applies only to cases in which we're predicating of more than one subject a term that signifies an attribute (or a whole collection of them, as I suppose "health" does).

    But as Brandon has usefully reminded us, that's not the only sort of predication there is, and I certainly don't think the forgoing analysis suffices as a reply to every example you might offer. It certainly wouldn't work, for example, with either of the other cases Brandon mentions (predicating a name or a genus).

    As for the rest, I'll just offer my usual reminder that it's only when we predicate a term of more than one subject that the question of univocity-vs.-analogy-vs.-equivocity arises at all. These aren't ways of classifying terms or even of describing single acts of predication; they're ways of contrasting multiple acts of predication, in particular those in which we predicate one term of multiple subjects.

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  22. (And to clarify again, it seems to me that we can't know that "God's wisdom is in us" apart from knowledge of "how this is possible.")

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  23. Erratum. For forgoing read foregoing.

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  24. @DavidM:

    The immediate referent is the sense we attach to the term 'God's wisdom,' that is, the concept 'God's wisdom,' by means of which we refer to the reality God's wisdom

    And this is just to talk about the relation of the attributes being per prius et posterius, which I haven't denied either. I'm not averse to qualifying all the talk about analogical predication to God with what is necessary to understand the predications.

    And to clarify again, it seems to me that we can't know that "God's wisdom is in us" apart from knowledge of "how this is possible

    "How it is possible" is simply by the principle of proportionate causality, which one has to accept if you swallow the rest of the metaphysics.

    @Scott

    As for the rest, I'll just offer my usual reminder that it's only when we predicate a term of more than one subject that the question of univocity-vs.-analogy-vs.-equivocity arises at all. These aren't ways of classifying terms or even of describing single acts of predication; they're ways of contrasting multiple acts of predication, in particular those in which we predicate one term of multiple subjects.

    I think that's a pretty important point throughout all of this; we have to be careful to distinguish talk about meaning of concepts from meaning of concepts used in predication for sure.

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  25. Josh:

    When we predicate animal of Fido and Socrates, we do so univocally because we are able to perfectly abstract the differences (H. Koren) to arrive at a univocal understanding of animality between the two. They don't differ qua animality. They both exhibit material, sensate being according to the same meanings of those terms.

    Let’s take things a step back, because I think I’m confusing ontology, understanding and language. Let’s just focus upon the ontological underpinnings here.

    We agree that if creation is like God, which would have to be the case if understanding creation could serve as a means of partially understanding God, then God and creation must share something in common C. C must be present in God and in creation, because otherwise, they wouldn’t share anything in common at all, and thus couldn’t be said to be like or similar to one another at all. They would be radically incommensurable, which means that studying creation would tell us absolutely nothing about God at all.

    There have been two positions presented here, as far as I can tell.

    First, there is the position that seems to imply that it is not even true that C is present in God and in creation, albeit in different modes of being. Instead, C is exclusively present in God, and whenever we make reference to C in creation, what we are really referring to is C in God, which is the only C that actually exists. What appears to be C in creation is just creation’s orientation towards C in God. It is like an arrow that points to something elsewhere, but what it is pointing towards is not present in the arrow itself. And I think this position is problematic, because it seems to completely undermine any likeness between God and creation, because they actually have nothing in common.

    Second, there is the position that agrees that C is present in God and in creation, albeit in different modes of being. But in that case, I don’t see why we can’t talk about C itself, in a similar way that we talk about the form of humanity itself, independent of whether it is instantiated in an immaterial or material mode of being. One option that has been mentioned here is that when we talk about C itself, we are actually just talking about C-in-God, which is basically the first position above. In that case, C is not even present in creation, which I argue is highly problematic. Another option is that we can talk about C itself separate from C-in-God and C-in-creation, which would be the “formally” identical C that is present in both. And in that case, I think that we can predicate C of God and of creation, and the question is what kind of predication would that be?

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  26. Scott:

    I was just talking about the kind of analogical predication that occurs when discussing common terms that we use about God and creation.

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  27. Dguller,

    Another option is that we can talk about C itself separate from C-in-God and C-in-creation, which would be the “formally” identical C that is present in both. And in that case, I think that we can predicate C of God and of creation, and the question is what kind of predication would that be?

    I'll just respond to this, because I think the other things you talk about are conflicts you have going with the others.

    I think we can analyze the concepts of humanity, wisdom, justice, being, etc. But that's just to look at 'em in an abstracted sense like anything else. I don't have a problem with that. And when we predicate those things of two subjects, and we bring our understanding of the subjects in union with an understanding of how they interact with the predicates, then we can tell what kind of predication is going on; analogical, univocal, or equivocal. So, I'd say the idea is that perfections and such to God are analogical, gray flowing beards and such to God would be equivocal, etc. And it seems to me (happy to be corrected here) that the reason we can say that there's some commonality between us and God to ground the predications is due to the principle of proportionate causality that guarantees it metaphysically.

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  28. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  29. @(Great) Scott: "moreover, I don't see that this view has any significant consequences for Thomism. It's not clear to me whether Aquinas himself agreed with it, but if he didn't, he was at least skirting the edges of nominalism/conceptualism."

    Not significant? It seems pretty significant in regard to just understanding what Thomism is, I'd say! To clarify Aquinas' view (I hope):

    SN II.3.3.2 ad 1: Ad primum ergo dicendum, quod est triplex universale. Quoddam quod est in re, scilicet natura ipsa, quae est in particularibus, quamvis in eis non sit secundum rationem universalitatis in actu. Est etiam quoddam universale quod est a re acceptum per abstractionem, et hoc posterius est re; et hoc modo formae Angelorum non sunt universales. Est etiam quoddam universale ad rem, quod est prius re ipsa, sicut forma domus in mente aedificatoris; et per hunc modum sunt universales formae rerum in mente angelica existentes, non ita quod sint operativae, sed quia sunt operativis similes, sicut aliquis speculative scientiam operativam habet.

    "To the first is must be said that there is a threefold universal. One which is in the thing, namely the very nature, which is in particulars, even though in them it does not exist according to the notion of universality in act. There is also a universal which is taken from the thing by abstraction, and this is posterior to the thing; and in this way the forms of Angels are not universals. And there is also a universal towards the thing, which is prior to the thing itself, just as the form of a house in the mind of the builder; and by this mode universals are the forms of things existing in the angelic mind, not in the sense that they are ‘operative’ [i.e., producing the things they know in reality], but because they are similar to operative beings, just as speculatively someone has operative knowledge."

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  30. Scott wrote: "And of course on that view we can talk about "C itself . . . independent of whether it is instantiated" in this or that way. Why is that relevant? Surely it's obvious that if we're talking about C in the abstract, independently of its instantiation, we're not predicating C (or, more precisely, a term that signifies C) of any subject at all. So what bearing could that possibly have on Aquinas's account of analogous predication—which, as several of us have been at some pains to remind you, has to do with the ways we predicate a term or more than one subject?"

    Yup! (Same point I made at the beginning of all this.)

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  31. Josh:

    I think we can analyze the concepts of humanity, wisdom, justice, being, etc. But that's just to look at 'em in an abstracted sense like anything else. I don't have a problem with that. And when we predicate those things of two subjects, and we bring our understanding of the subjects in union with an understanding of how they interact with the predicates, then we can tell what kind of predication is going on; analogical, univocal, or equivocal. So, I'd say the idea is that perfections and such to God are analogical, gray flowing beards and such to God would be equivocal, etc. And it seems to me (happy to be corrected here) that the reason we can say that there's some commonality between us and God to ground the predications is due to the principle of proportionate causality that guarantees it metaphysically.

    First, I absolutely agree with you on the principle of proportionate causality as the metaphysical foundation for the likeness relationship between creation and God, but I think that it only makes sense with the further idea that the cause “gives” something to the effect, that it cannot give what it does not have, and once given, the effect has it, as well. All of which is to say that the cause and the effect have something in common C, which is such that there is C-in-cause and C-in-effect, but it is still the same C in both.

    Second, it seems to me that if we take God as cause and creation as effect, then there is C-in-God-as-cause and C-in-creation-as-effect. I think that we can predicate C of both God and creation in this case, because C is present in God and in creation, albeit in different ways. When we predicate C of God and C of creation, then why is it analogical? The res significata is C itself, and what are the different modi significandi of C itself? It seems that C itself has the mode of either -in-God-as-cause or -in-creation-as-effect. That disjunction of modes remains the same whether predicated of God or creation, I think.

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  32. Josh wrote:
    "And this is just to talk about the relation of the attributes being per prius et posterius, which I haven't denied either. I'm not averse to qualifying all the talk about analogical predication to God with what is necessary to understand the predications."

    No, it's certainly not. My point was about the semantics, not the metaphysics.

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  33. If there is no C between God and creation, then there is no way that creation can be like God at all, and rather, they are radically and entirely different such that any comparison between the two is impossible, which would preclude any analogical predication, as well.

    Completely independently of the question of anything to do with metaphysical analysis, this is clearly false: nothing precludes analogical predication except the inability to have commonality in the predication, which we already know does not necessarily have to depend on the way things are metaphysically (and, again, this is precisely because the order of derivation is naming from cognition from being). If you've done the metaphysical analysis to get the commonality, you don't need to appeal to analogical predication for it; analogical predication doesn't of itself directly imply anything about the underlying metaphysics, being consistent with all sorts of different metaphysical situations. Again, you need to disentangle the two topics. They're connected, but the one does not immediately apply anything about the other, because being and naming are intermediated by understanding.

    Josh explained that the common R exists in some particular way or mode of being M, which is what I mean by R-as-some-M.

    This merely makes it even more obscure, since as I mentioned, mode of being is not immediately relevant to mode of predication. And if we take the mode of being to be directly the reason for the mode of predication here, then 'some particular way or mode of being' would imply a definite mode of predication, in which case the two would be univocal because you've simply stipulated that they are. But if it's definite, then it's not a disjunctive predicate, which you said it was. So I'm even less sure what you mean by it now.

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  34. That disjunction of modes remains the same whether predicated of God or creation, I think.

    Right, there's a disjunction when the two subjects instantiate C or whatever differently. I don't think there's any disagreement here from me at least. Except that when we are saying 'what is C,' and C is wisdom or one of the transcendentals or whatnot, then we're analyzing the concept in itself as general, and that won't be univocal, analogical, equivocal in itself obviously. That only comes into play when it's predicated, as Scott was pointing out.

    but I think that it only makes sense with the further idea that the cause “gives” something to the effect, that it cannot give what it does not have, and once given, the effect has it, as well.

    Sure, and I wouldn't deny it, I, like you, think that's what allows the discussion to get off the ground--as a matter of fact, I thought that's exactly what the principle was, as I quoted it from one of Feser's past posts

    @DavidM

    Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here, because I'm not following what exactly you're getting at

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  35. Scott & David M:

    And of course on that view we can talk about "C itself . . . independent of whether it is instantiated" in this or that way. Why is that relevant? Surely it's obvious that if we're talking about C in the abstract, independently of its instantiation, we're not predicating C (or, more precisely, a term that signifies C) of any subject at all. So what bearing could that possibly have on Aquinas's account of analogous predication—which, as several of us have been at some pains to remind you, has to do with the ways we predicate a term or more than one subject

    When we say that Socrates and Plato are human beings, what are we predicating of each? I think that we are predicating the form of humanity F(H) of each. But, we are not predicating F(H)-as-instantiated-by-Socrates or F(H)-as-instantiated-by-Plato, because the former is not predicated of Plato and the latter is not predicated of Socrates, and thus that cannot be what they share in common that allows us to say that they are both human beings.

    I think that leaves only two other possibilities: we are predicating F(H) itself or F(H)-as-instantiated-by-a-particular-human-being. The former is impossible, and for the very reason that you mentioned, i.e. F(H) itself is necessarily stripped of all individuating features, which would preclude any predication of a particular human subject. That leaves the latter, which would mean that F(H)-as-instantiated-by-a-particular-human-being is predicated of both Socrates and Plato, which would be what they have in common, and which would justify the claim that they are each human beings.

    So, to expand it out, we have the following:

    (1) Socrates is a human being = Socrates is F(H)-as-instantiated-by-a-particular-human-being
    (2) Plato is a human being = Plato is F(H)-as-instantiated-by-a-particular-human-being

    I think that (1) and (2) would be an example of univocal predication.

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  36. @David M:

    "Not significant? It seems pretty significant in regard to just understanding what Thomism is, I'd say!"

    Certainly, but I didn't say it wasn't significant; I said that if something signified by a term is in some cases literally common to two subjects of which the term is predicated, that fact doesn't seem to me to have significant consequences for Thomism—and in particular that Aquinas's doctrine of analogous predication doesn't seem to depend on it in any way.[*] That is of course a very different statement.

    As for the clarification of what Aquinas meant, thanks for the quotation—which, after a bit of digging, I find is from Scriptum super Sententiis, a work with which I was unfamiliar and which I can't find online in full English translation although I've found a partial one that doesn't include the passage you quoted.

    In that case the question is precisely what Aquinas means by that first "fold" of his threefold universal; at first look he seems to be saying that there are universals "in the things" and "in particulars." If you'd care to explicate further, I'd be happy to listen; the subject is of interest to me in its own right. But if his view on whether there are real universals "in" things is so hard to find that you have to quote from a minor work that isn't even available online in a full English translation . . . well, you can at least see why his precise view isn't clear to me, and for that matter why it's not obvious to me that its consequences for "what Thomism is" are all that far-reaching. (That doesn't of course mean that I disagree or that I'm not open to enlightenment on the subject.)

    By the way, since I can't find the English translation online, I take it that the translation of the quoted passage is yours. So thank you for that as well.

    ----

    [*] And if it does, why doesn't he discuss it when he's setting forth that doctrine?

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  37. David M:

    To say "we apply 'wise' in an unrestricted way to God" invites the question, 'unrestricted' in what sense? It would seem that this 'unrestricted' way is precisely a metaphysically 'unrestricted' (unlimited, infinite) way - which, it would seem, is not something we can do "regardless of the metaphysics."

    Such an objection wouldn't be to the point, however, since, as I've said several times, the metaphysics may be a reason for the predication. But as not all cases of analogical predication are like the case of God and creatures, the fact that we are predicating analogically has no direct implications as to what the underlying metaphysics is. Indeed, as the case of God and things opined to be gods shows, analogical predication is actually consistent with any possible metaphysical situation, because naming does not directly correspond to reality, but depends on how we understand it.

    The objection is flawed in another, related, way, in that it assumes that predication depends on our predicating for good reasons. We could predicate practically anything of practically anything in the relevant unrestricted way; we'd just get false (but sometimes misleadingly truth-like) statements about everything about God. The reason Aquinas doesn't bother with such cases is that he's asking how we predicate terms of God and creatures in the context of sacred doctrine. And the case of God and creatures is indeed, a situation in which the metaphysics provides one of the reasons why you'd need to have analogical predication in order to convey the metaphysical truths you are trying to convey. This is not something intrinsic to analogical predication, though, but arises from the context in which we are doing it.

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  38. @David M:

    "Yup! (Same point I made at the beginning of all this.)"

    Precisely. Incidentally, I deleted that comment because I saw the dguller did partly address that question later in his paragraph and that Josh had already responded by the time I'd posted. But I do think the point is worth repeated emphasis so I'm happy to reaffirm the statement itself.

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  39. guller asked:

    "Second, it seems to me that if we take God as cause and creation as effect, then there is C-in-God-as-cause and C-in-creation-as-effect. I think that we can predicate C of both God and creation in this case, because C is present in God and in creation, albeit in different ways. When we predicate C of God and C of creation, then why is it analogical?"

    Because the meaning of 'C' in each predication is different. If it wasn't different, then you would be predicating 'C' univocally of God and creature (which is impossible).

    You want to define 'C' as 'an X which can be univocally predicated of God and creatures.' You want to say, that because you can refer to this X, it must exist; iow, you want to claim:

    There exists some X, such that X can be univocally predicated of God and creatures.

    Thomas reply is: There exists no such X. (Go ahead: try to name one.)

    Your reply is: But there must be some such X: if I have named it, labeled it, formally designated it, then it must really exist! And whatever it is (in reality), by definition it can be univocally predicated of God and creatures! QED.

    But that is simply not how we determine what exists. This X exists only as a conceptual construct, the real (extra-mental) existence of which we must deny. (Or do you have an example of some such real X?)

    "The res significata is C itself" -- [sure, provided we're talking about C itself, which is just a nominally defined concept] -- "and what are the different modi significandi [rather: senses] of C itself?"

    God's C and creature's C (and of course these different senses only occur in actual acts of predication).

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  40. @dguller:

    I had deleted my post for the reasons I mentioned above, but since you replied to it I'll continue.

    "When we say that Socrates and Plato are human beings, what are we predicating of each? I think that we are predicating the form of humanity F(H) of each."

    Whereas I—and, more importantly, Aquinas—think you are predicating the term "human being" of each. The distinction may seem subtle, but it's so crucially important that if you stuck to it consistently your other questions wouldn't arise.

    What you're really discussing here, it seems to me, is not the "predication" but the signification of the term. To put it roughly and perhaps at the risk of imprecision, so as (I hope) not to cause any more terminological confusion: what we have in mind when we use the term "human being" is indeed the form of humanity, but when we predicate the term of a particular human being, the objective reality to which we thereby refer is the humanity of that particular human being.

    That's pretty much the distinction you seem to have in mind, and it's fine as far as it goes; you're just making it in the wrong place because you're not keeping clear on the difference I mentioned in the preceding paragraph. In this instance the term signifies the form, which is formally (though not numerically) identical in our intellect and the human being. What we're predicating of the subject, however, is the term, not the "form."

    At least that's my understanding. But I've said things along these lines before and so have others, so at this point I'll let the matter go.

    "(1) Socrates is a human being = Socrates is F(H)-as-instantiated-by-a-particular-human-being
    (2) Plato is a human being = Plato is F(H)-as-instantiated-by-a-particular-human-being

    I think that (1) and (2) would be an example of univocal predication."

    The details of your analysis aside, I think you will be hard pressed to find any Thomist would would deny that "human being" is univocally predicated of Socrates and Plato.

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  41. Oy. "Would would" = "who would."

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  42. @Scott:
    On the issue of significance, I think that getting everything right is the best policy, and once we've got everything right, then we'll be able to assess the significance of any given piece of the picture. For our purposes here, guller has repeatedly gotten confused in thinking that the subject of predication is the abstracted universal, or the ante rem universal (the divine archetype), whereas it is in fact the in re universal, the nature itself, which is predicated of a real thing. (I'm not sure where you stand on that.)

    (Yes, the translation was mine; you're welcome. Also, the Commentary on the Sentences is actually anything but a minor work.)

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  43. And the case of God and creatures is indeed, a situation in which the metaphysics provides one of the reasons why you'd need to have analogical predication in order to convey the metaphysical truths you are trying to convey.

    Yes, and with respect to God the attribute being predicated is always intrinsic, but with respect to us it is always extrinsic. That by itself, it seems to me, is enough reason for the predication to always be analogical...and as far as I understand this has to be the case because of the doctrine of divine simplicity.

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  44. ...and to allay guller's other persistent confusion, I should not have used the imprecise term "subject of predication" but rather something like the "res significata of the predicate"

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  45. @David M:

    "Also, the Commentary on the Sentences is actually anything but a minor work."

    Very well; thanks. I'm happy to defer to your expertise. In that case you've brought to my attention a non-minor work with which I was not familiar.

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  46. David:

    There exists some X, such that X can be univocally predicated of God and creatures.

    That’s close to what I’m saying, but not entirely. I’m saying that if the principle of proportionate causality is true, then effects are like their causes, and thus if creation is an effect, then it must be like its cause, i.e. God. To say that X is like Y means that X and Y have something in common, and I think that this something in common must be present in both X and Y, because otherwise, they don’t actually have anything in common at all. So, it follows that God and creation have something in common, which we can call C. In reality, C does not exist itself, but exists in some mode of being, which in this case is either in God as perfect, infinite and unparticipated or in creation as imperfect, finite and participated.

    My question about univocal predication is whether one can predicate C-as-instantiated-by-either-God-or-creation of God and creation in such a way that one is using the same term, which has the same res (i.e. C) and the same modus (i.e. -as-instantiated-by-either-God-or-creation). Or perhaps the real res is C-as-instantiated-by-either-God-or-creation, and the modi would have to be -as-instantiated-by-God or -as-instantiated-by-creation, which are clearly different. You seem to be leaning more towards the latter than the former, but is there any reason to do so?

    But that is simply not how we determine what exists. This X exists only as a conceptual construct, the real (extra-mental) existence of which we must deny. (Or do you have an example of some such real X?)

    That depends upon what you mean by “real (extra-mental) existence”. There is a real distinction between essence and existence, which means that those terms each correspond to something real in a composite entity. In other words, the distinction between them is not just a conceptual one in the mind, but actually corresponds to something real. So, in one sense, essence is a conceptual construct, because it is abstracted from a concrete particular by the intellect, but in another sense, essence is really there in the composite entity and is subsequently extracted by the intellect.

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  47. @David M:

    "For our purposes here . . . [the res significata of the predicate] is in fact the in re universal, the nature itself, which is predicated of a real thing. (I'm not sure where you stand on that.)"

    I think I'm right there with you on that. Not far above I made what I think is almost exactly that point, albeit in much looser language.

    The one quibble I might raise, and it's a minor one, is that I think it's the term rather than the in re universal that is being directly "predicated" of the subject in the strictest sense, and even at that it seems to me to be legitimate to say that the in re universal is being predicated in a derivative sense through the predication of the term.

    Of course I may not be precisely tracking Aquinas's thought here anyway, and here again I'll be glad to defer to you on that.

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  48. Brandon:

    Completely independently of the question of anything to do with metaphysical analysis, this is clearly false: nothing precludes analogical predication except the inability to have commonality in the predication, which we already know does not necessarily have to depend on the way things are metaphysically (and, again, this is precisely because the order of derivation is naming from cognition from being).

    I don’t think that I was sufficiently clear. You can certainly have analogical predication independent of ontological likeness, but the analogical prediction will be false.

    This merely makes it even more obscure, since as I mentioned, mode of being is not immediately relevant to mode of predication. And if we take the mode of being to be directly the reason for the mode of predication here, then 'some particular way or mode of being' would imply a definite mode of predication, in which case the two would be univocal because you've simply stipulated that they are. But if it's definite, then it's not a disjunctive predicate, which you said it was. So I'm even less sure what you mean by it now.

    Then either “some particular way or mode of being” is either (a) a disjunctive predicate, but indefinite, or (b) not a disjunctive predicate, but definite. Would (a) or (b) preserve univocal predication?

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  49. Scott:

    The details of your analysis aside, I think you will be hard pressed to find any Thomist would would deny that "human being" is univocally predicated of Socrates and Plato.

    Great. So, if X and Y have C in common, then say we have the following:

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being

    It seems that this would also be an example of univocal predication, because you have the same term (i.e. “C”), the same mode (i.e. -as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being), and the same res (i.e. either C itself or C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being).

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  50. Brandon wrote: Using a term like 'wise' of God (assuming we're doing it correctly), we apply it in an unrestricted way (it's not predicated as an accident, for instance), 'wise' as such or itself; using it of creatures, we are applying it in a way that has an ordering or ratio to this unrestricted 'wise', which 'wise' applied to creatures restricts. This is all that's really happening in the predication itself, regardless of the metaphysics.

    ME: To say "we apply 'wise' in an unrestricted way to God" invites the question, 'unrestricted' in what sense? It would seem that this 'unrestricted' way is precisely a metaphysically 'unrestricted' (unlimited, infinite) way - which, it would seem, is not something we can do "regardless of the metaphysics."

    Brandon:

    Such an objection wouldn't be to the point, however, since, as I've said several times, the metaphysics may be a reason for the predication.

    And of course it may; but what else could be a reason ("assuming we're doing it correctly")?

    Indeed, as the case of God and things opined to be gods shows, analogical predication is actually consistent with any possible metaphysical situation, because naming does not directly correspond to reality, but depends on how we understand it.

    I don't understand your argument here. What text are you referring to? Couldn't you just as well add, "But since we can't assume that our metaphysical understanding does not derive from just any possible 'metaphysical situation' but must assume that it in fact is directed towards understanding the actual one, this mention of the indirectness of naming's correspondence with reality is irrelevant. (It merely identifies a universal background feature of all human cognition.)"

    The objection is flawed in another, related, way, in that it assumes that predication depends on our predicating for good reasons.

    Does it? I'd have thought that it assumed that we were intending to predicate for good reasons, not that predication as such depends on our predicating for good reasons (I really don't know what that is supposed to even mean or how we could verify such a queer 'assumption').

    We could predicate practically anything of practically anything in the relevant unrestricted way;

    What 'relevant unrestricted way'? - 'unrestricted way' relevant to what restricting framework? My point was that 'unrestricted' doesn't mean anything in itself (i.e., as explicitly divorced from any metaphysical constraints). ('unrestricted' relative to the laws of the state of Massachusetts? 'unrestricted' relative to the statutes of the Rotary Club of America?) Am I wrong about this?

    The reason Aquinas doesn't bother with such cases is that he's asking how we predicate terms of God and creatures in the context of sacred doctrine. And the case of God and creatures is indeed, a situation in which the metaphysics provides one of the reasons why you'd need to have analogical predication in order to convey the metaphysical truths you are trying to convey. This is not something intrinsic to analogical predication, though, but arises from the context in which we are doing it.

    Okay. I'm having trouble understanding this. Can you give me an example of a context where "we could predicate practically anything of practically anything in the relevant unrestricted way," i.e., a context wherein metaphysical reality is not a controlling 'restriction' on our acts of predication?

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  51. Scott:

    What you're really discussing here, it seems to me, is not the "predication" but the signification of the term. To put it roughly and perhaps at the risk of imprecision, so as (I hope) not to cause any more terminological confusion: what we have in mind when we use the term "human being" is indeed the form of humanity, but when we predicate the term of a particular human being, the objective reality to which we thereby refer is the humanity of that particular human being.

    I think that you’re absolutely correct. I’m focusing upon what the terms signify, and not the terms themselves.

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  52. Josh:

    Right, there's a disjunction when the two subjects instantiate C or whatever differently. I don't think there's any disagreement here from me at least. Except that when we are saying 'what is C,' and C is wisdom or one of the transcendentals or whatnot, then we're analyzing the concept in itself as general, and that won't be univocal, analogical, equivocal in itself obviously. That only comes into play when it's predicated, as Scott was pointing out.

    Right.

    So, have a look at the following statements:

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being

    What I see is the same term (i.e. “C”), the same mode (i.e. -as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being), and the same res (i.e. C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being), which I would call univocal predication of the term, “C”.

    What do you think?

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  53. What I see is the same term (i.e. “C”), the same mode (i.e. -as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being), and the same res (i.e. C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being), which I would call univocal predication of the term, “C”.

    What do you think?


    Yeah, sure, that's univocal predication. Analogical would carry the further distinction (to amend):

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being different from Y's

    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being different from X's

    E.g.;
    Socrates is human
    Plato is human (univocal)

    Socrates is wise
    God is wise (analogical)

    Again, we agree that you have to have C, but in order for there to be analogy, the particular-mode-of-being-of-C has to be different, and not in some unrelated way to C, but directly related to C.

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  54. David M,

    And of course it may; but what else could be a reason ("assuming we're doing it correctly")?

    Other people not doing it correctly, to name just one.

    I don't understand your argument here. What text are you referring to?

    The discussion of divine names in the Summa.

    Couldn't you just as well add, "But since we can't assume that our metaphysical understanding does not derive from just any possible 'metaphysical situation' but must assume that it in fact is directed towards understanding the actual one, this mention of the indirectness of naming's correspondence with reality is irrelevant. (It merely identifies a universal background feature of all human cognition.)"

    I don't know what this means. Any position on the subject that requires that we always predicate correctly is obviously wrong: certain heretics, for instance, clearly are predicating terms univocally of God and creatures.

    My point was that 'unrestricted' doesn't mean anything in itself (i.e., as explicitly divorced from any metaphysical constraints). ('unrestricted' relative to the laws of the state of Massachusetts? 'unrestricted' relative to the statutes of the Rotary Club of America?) Am I wrong about this?

    You're making the same mistake as dguller: If I say P is predicated of S 'in an unrestricted way' this can only be taken as relative to the ways in which one can predicate terms; you can't conflate the predication with the metaphysics. A term could be predicated as a genus, or as a property, etc. or, in the case of God, it is theologically incorrect to predicate it as a genus, etc., but as not restricted in the ways predication as a genus, etc., is.

    Can you give me an example of a context where "we could predicate practically anything of practically anything in the relevant unrestricted way," i.e., a context wherein metaphysical reality is not a controlling 'restriction' on our acts of predication?

    It's not difficult at all; you can do it at will. But I've already given examples of this above: I can say, "Socrates is wise" with the intent, or in a context which requires, that 'wise' be predicated of Socrates in exactly the way it is correctly predicated of God in sacra doctrina. And, of course, it will be certainly false. But anyone can do it, just as idolators and heretics not uncommonly predicate things of God in creaturely ways, or of creatures in ways only appropriate to God.

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  55. guller:

    "My question about univocal predication is whether one can predicate C-as-instantiated-by-either-God-or-creation of God and creation in such a way that one is using the same term, which has the same res (i.e. C) and the same modus (i.e. -as-instantiated-by-either-God-or-creation). Or perhaps the real res is C-as-instantiated-by-either-God-or-creation, and the modi would have to be -as-instantiated-by-God or -as-instantiated-by-creation, which are clearly different. You seem to be leaning more towards the latter than the former, but is there any reason to do so?"

    Hmm... I don't know about all that. Maybe this will help:

    "Adam is a man."
    "Brian is a man."

    The significate (res) of 'man' in each case is the individualized human nature. Adam and Brian do not have different modes/senses of human nature. Human nature is found in each in the same way. Same applies to "Adam the ant and Brian the baboon are animals." 'Animal' has a determinate conceptual content, and this content can be univocally applied to both subjects.

    For Aquinas, there is no C such that it has this kind of determinate conceptual content and can be univocally applied to both God and creatures.

    If you think there is, then what is that term (that C)? My contention is that the only term you can come up with is one with a purely nominal definition: 'C' is, by definition, whatever real predicate can be univocally predicated of God and creatures. Fine, but according to Aquinas, no such C exists. That is, there is no univocal foundation in reality from which we can abstract such a concept and subsequently (truly) predicate it of real things.

    You could say that there must BE such a concept, but it could only be that 'concept' which is identical to the divine intellect itself, which comprehends all of being in the act of comprehending itself (the purely actual intellect which makes all things). Since we have no such comprehensive a priori conception of being, we have no way of arriving at any concept with determinate content that transcends the ontological difference between Being itself and beings. We can only point to this difference (not conceptualize it) and acknowledge the humbleness (and yet greatness) of our own human understanding in the face of it.

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  56. dguller,

    I don’t think that I was sufficiently clear. You can certainly have analogical predication independent of ontological likeness, but the analogical prediction will be false.

    Only propositions are actually false, and there will always be at least two propositions involved. Even if we confine ourselves to cases in which both propositions are true, I'm not so sure: consider the real divine vs. divine in opinion case again--

    The one true God is their God.
    Mumbo-Jumbo is their God.

    Both of these can be true of a group of people who only worship the false god Mumbo Jumbo, just not if we are predicating univocally. This is because in the first case, we could mean that the one true God is their God whether they believe it or not, whereas the second can mean, analogically, that Mumbo Jumbo is what is their God, in tribe X's opinion.

    Then either “some particular way or mode of being” is either (a) a disjunctive predicate, but indefinite, or (b) not a disjunctive predicate, but definite. Would (a) or (b) preserve univocal predication?

    Univocal predication requires sameness of mode of predication, and so (a) could not possibly do it. (b) is consistent with univocal predication; but only if it were the same definite mode of predication.

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  57. Since it keeps coming up, and since it does seem common for people to skip over it in discussing analogy, here is Aquinas on predicating the name God (ST 1.13.10), in the Dominican Fathers translation:

    "For this name "God," as signifying the true God, includes the idea of God when it is used to denote God in opinion, or participation. For when we name anyone god by participation, we understand by the name of god some likeness of the true God. Likewise, when we call an idol god, by this name god we understand and signify something which men think is God; thus it is manifest that the name has different meanings, but that one of them is comprised in the other significations. Hence it is manifestly said analogically. "

    I've found over the years that this passage, so often ignored, is almost always the major test case for whether an interpretation of Aquinas's account of analogy is viable.

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  58. Brandon:

    "Other people not doing it correctly, to name just one."

    So "other people not predicating correctly" can be a reason for predicating without regard to metaphysical restrictions?? Wow, confused.

    "The discussion of divine names in the Summa."

    Wherein, naturally, Aquinas examines the case of God and things opined to be gods and shows that analogical predication is actually consistent with any possible metaphysical situation, because naming does not directly correspond to reality, but depends on how we understand it. Right. Thanks.


    me: "Couldn't you just as well add, "But since we can't assume that our metaphysical understanding does not derive from just any possible 'metaphysical situation' but must assume that it in fact is directed towards understanding the actual one, this mention of the indirectness of naming's correspondence with reality is irrelevant. (It merely identifies a universal background feature of all human cognition.)"

    Brandon: "I don't know what this means."

    So it appears:

    "Any position on the subject that requires that we always predicate correctly is obviously wrong: certain heretics, for instance, clearly are predicating terms univocally of God and creatures."

    My position does not require that we always predicate correctly - as I stated, our metaphysical claims are always directed towards understanding reality (by predicating correctly); this does not mean that they always succeed.


    "You're making the same mistake as dguller: If I say P is predicated of S 'in an unrestricted way' this can only be taken as relative to the ways in which one can predicate terms; you can't conflate the predication with the metaphysics."

    But I didn't conflate the terms. I made a claim about the intrinsically metaphysical intent of real acts of predication. Am I mistaken about this? Your best counter-example so far is the case of heretics, but heretics don't intend to speak metaphysical falsehood, so that example doesn't work.

    "A term could be predicated as a genus, or as a property, etc. or, in the case of God, it is theologically incorrect to predicate it as a genus, etc., but as not restricted in the ways predication as a genus, etc., is."

    ??

    "It's not difficult at all; you can do it at will. But I've already given examples of this above: I can say, "Socrates is wise" with the intent, or in a context which requires, that 'wise' be predicated of Socrates in exactly the way it is correctly predicated of God in sacra doctrina. And, of course, it will be certainly false. But anyone can do it, just as idolators and heretics not uncommonly predicate things of God in creaturely ways, or of creatures in ways only appropriate to God."

    I think you're clearly just missing my point. If you point out to a heretic or an idolator that his acts of predication are metaphysically untenable, he won't likely reply, "That's nice, but I'm an idolator and a heretic, so I can predicate practically anything of practically anything in a metaphysically unrestricted way."

    But come to think of it, it's not difficult at all: if you're stark raving nuts - "I AM GOD! OBEY ME!" -, then, yes, metaphysical reality will not be a constraint upon your predicational practices. But there's not much point in pretending to have an intelligent conversation with someone who is completely nuts, is there? Does someone who isn't just wrong, but doesn't even make any sense, doesn't even care whether their acts of predication are constrained by reality, really have the ability to perform genuine acts of predication? I would say no, not in any relevant sense.

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  59. David M,

    I notice that, despite the misguided sarcasm, you have no actual argument against anything I've pointed out.

    It's all quite simple:

    (1) The theory of analogical predication is a theory of how we can predicate terms or names of subjects.

    (2) The reason Aquinas talks about analogy in the context of the divine names in a textbook on sacred doctrine, is that it is supposed to be useful for sacred doctrine.

    (3) Sacred doctrine regularly has to consider and show what is wrong with the positions of people with false metaphysics, like heretics or idolators.

    (3) Aquinas is quite clear that analogical predication covers some of the most important of these cases when compared to the way terms are predicated of God in sacred doctrine.

    (4) Therefore, while true metaphysics is the reason for analogical predication within sacred doctrine, it is not necessary for analogical predication that the metaphysical assumptions behind the predication be true.

    Any account of analogy that fails to make it serviceable to sacra doctrina is a nonstarter. What is more, as I already said, it's a manifest fact that heretics and idolators often predicate terms of God and creatures univocally, because that's what makes them heretics and idolators; likewise, terms are often predicated analogically between the true metaphysics and the false metaphysics. And sacred doctrine has to talk about these, and may sometimes be comparing two false views, one of whose terms are predicated analogically when compared with the terms of the other. Thus, while metaphysics gives reasons for analogical predication in this or that case, analogical predication does not of itself tell us anything about the metaphysics.

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  60. @Brandon

    If you get a moment (& if you don't I understand) what is the basic difference between Cajetan on analogy vs McInerny the later calls analogy a logical doctrine?

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  61. Ben,

    There are probably others who could answer the question better; it has been quite some time since I've looked closely at either. But in a nutshell, the major difference between Cajetan and McInerny is exegetical: Cajetan as usually understood takes Aquinas's discussion of analogy in the Sentences commentary to be the key to understanding Aquinas on analogy, and on the basis of it builds the famous classification of different kinds of analogy (attribution, etc.). McInerny thinks that Cajetan has misinterpreted the Sentences discussion, so that it is not possible to build a classification of kinds of analogy on it, that the Sentences discussion is not as important for the later discussions as Cajetan makes it, and that Cajetan's actual classification is untenable because Cajetan fails to distinguish properly between what is essential to analogy and what is not. Probably the most important practical difference is that McInerny thinks there is no classification of analogy: Aquinas just gives us a range of different phenomena in which it can be found, precisely to make the point that analogy can be found in lots of different things.

    I said 'Cajetan as usually understood' above because there's recently been some argument (by Hochschild) that this is actually Cajetan as misunderstood, and that Cajetan is not trying to give an account of Aquinas's doctrine of analogy, or even a general account of analogy, but that he is trying to adapt ideas in Aquinas to deal with arguments raised by Scotists. (Although Hochschild does think that Cajetan's account remains consistent with Aquinas's.) I'm not sufficiently well-read in Cajetan to say.

    That's all very general, I know, and doesn't really get into the meat of the difference between them.

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  62. Thank you for that.

    Now I have something to mull.

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  63. Brandon,

    I'm not sure what was misguided about my sarcasm. And maybe you didn't understand my argument? Anyway, re. your "it's all quite simple":

    (1) Sure.
    (2) Indubitably.
    (3) Of course.
    (3) Huh? Could you phrase that more clearly?
    (4) Non sequitur, and ignoratio elenchi.

    "Any account of analogy that fails to make it serviceable to sacra doctrina is a nonstarter."

    I have no idea what you have in mind here - what is the point of your saying this?

    "What is more, as I already said, it's a manifest fact that heretics and idolators often predicate terms of God and creatures univocally, because that's what makes them heretics and idolators;"

    ... unless, of course, they are heretics and idolators because of other reasons.

    "likewise, terms are often predicated analogically between the true metaphysics and the false metaphysics. And sacred doctrine has to talk about these, and may sometimes be comparing two false views, one of whose terms are predicated analogically when compared with the terms of the other. Thus, while metaphysics gives reasons for analogical predication in this or that case, analogical predication does not of itself tell us anything about the metaphysics."

    And I never said it did, did I? (Again, ignoratio elenchi.)

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  64. Josh:

    Analogical would carry the further distinction (to amend):

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being different from Y's

    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being different from X's


    Right, but you can see how one could believe that within analogical predication, at least in this case, there is a univocal core:

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being

    Again, we agree that you have to have C, but in order for there to be analogy, the particular-mode-of-being-of-C has to be different, and not in some unrelated way to C, but directly related to C.

    Agreed, but I’m wondering if there is a univocal core within the analogical predication, as above.

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  65. David M:

    For Aquinas, there is no C such that it has this kind of determinate conceptual content and can be univocally applied to both God and creatures.

    And that is what I’m trying to show is necessary. Have a look at the following:

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being

    I would say that (1) and (2) would be an example of univocal predication, such that you have the same term (i.e. “C”), the same mode (i.e. -as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being), and the same res (i.e. C itself or C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being).

    If you think there is, then what is that term (that C)? My contention is that the only term you can come up with is one with a purely nominal definition: 'C' is, by definition, whatever real predicate can be univocally predicated of God and creatures. Fine, but according to Aquinas, no such C exists. That is, there is no univocal foundation in reality from which we can abstract such a concept and subsequently (truly) predicate it of real things.

    And that’s what I’m having a hard time understanding. If creation is like God, as an effect is like its cause, then God and creation must have something in common C, and C must be present in God and in creation, as far as I can tell. Furthermore, C must be “formally” identical in both God and creation. Otherwise, what possible sense is there it saying that creation is like God at all, which is a fundamental claim of Thomist metaphysics and theology by virtue of the principle of proportionate causality. In other words, there must be C for the account to be possible at all.

    Now, C must exist in some mode, and there are basically two kinds of modes in this case: divine (i.e. simple, perfect, infinite and unparticipated) and creaturely (i.e. composite, imperfect, finite and participated). These would correspond to the different modes of signification involved in analogical predication, and thus if analogical predication is to correspond truly to reality, then I think this is an essential condition for that very possibility.

    If all of the above is valid, then we can certainly say the following:

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being

    And in (1) and (2), as I’ve said above, you have univocal predication.

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  66. DavidM,

    (3) Of course.
    (3) Huh? Could you phrase that more clearly?


    Aquinas is clear that the source of the wrongness of some of the most important positions of people with false metaphysics can be found in poor analogical predication, i.e., in analogical predication having gone awry.

    (4) Non sequitur, and ignoratio elenchi.

    Not at all.

    Though the premises of an argument may be false, the reasoning itself of the argument may be valid; similarly, though the metaphysical assumptions behind an analogical predication may be false, the predication itself may be true.

    And just as the correctness of the reasoning nestled between starting premises and conclusion may be addressed, discussed and evaluated, so too may the correctness of analogical predication nestled between starting metaphysical assumptions and whatever point or position the predication is meant to help establish or buttress.

    It seems clear to this reader that at least three participants in the discussion have homed in on that middle.

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  67. Agreed, but I’m wondering if there is a univocal core within the analogical predication, as above.

    To be clearer:

    Univocal:
    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being the same as Y's
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being the same as X's


    Analogical:
    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being different from Y's

    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being different from X's


    These categories are irreducible, for obvious reasons. Abstracting the 'different from' and 'same as' from the equations doesn't add anything, or even less, get at a commonality; it's just incomplete analysis.

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  68. Josh:

    These categories are irreducible, for obvious reasons. Abstracting the 'different from' and 'same as' from the equations doesn't add anything, or even less, get at a commonality; it's just incomplete analysis.

    And that’s exactly what I’m not seeing is incomplete analysis. Sure, abstracted the “different from” and ‘same as” from the equations results in something short of the concrete actual entities in question, and in that sense could be considered “incomplete”, but then you could say the same thing about any abstraction from concrete reality.

    I guess the question is why C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being is itself insufficient to warrant univocal predication. I mean, C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being is the same in both X and Y. Sure, there are further identities and differences involved, but why is that relevant? All that matters, as far as I can tell, is that there is something that is the same in terms of modus and res that is present in both X and Y, and certainly C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being should count for that, no?

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  69. David M,

    You seem not to be grasping the elementary point that you are objecting to my argument; that's what started this whole discussion. And with your

    (1) Sure.
    (2) Indubitably.
    (3) Of course.


    you have conceded that you have no substantive objection to the claim you were objecting to in the first place. So that when you say in response to my clarification of my original argument,

    And I never said it did, did I? (Again, ignoratio elenchi.)

    the irony is extraordinary, since the thing you claim you never said is in fact the claim I was opposing in the argument you originally objected to; and thus that it is you who are guilty of ignoratio elenchi. And that this failure of yours to keep on track is not due to any great inarticulateness on my part is evidenced by the fact that Glenn saw the point at once.

    The fact that you won't even bother to keep track of the argument you are objecting to, or even the fact that you are the one objecting to it, and then try to blame other people for your failures and get out of serious argument by mere sarcasm, merely establishes that you are once again wasting my, and everyone else's, time. I certainly have no more time to waste on you.

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  70. I mean, C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being is the same in both X and Y.

    The words you're using are the same, but if the predication itself isn't univocal, then exactly the opposite is true: C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being isn't the same in both X and Y. Very simply put, unless you include an implicit meaning of the senses as same or different, you aren't really predicating anything. That formulation you have is neither univocal nor analogical in nature.

    All that matters, as far as I can tell, is that there is something that is the same in terms of modus and res that is present in both X and Y, and certainly C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being should count for that, no?

    Nope, using the words you've set there doesn't get you to either univocal or analogical predication. We have to know whether the meanings are being applied in the same way across the two subjects for us to have a case of univocal predication; it's a necessary condition. I don't know how else to point this out.

    One last shot:
    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being


    There is equal weight, when considering the meanings here, on either univocal predication or analogical predication. Just from what is given, we can't figure out which it is.

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  71. Concrete example might serve better:

    Taking "C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being" to be functionally equivalent to "sense":

    1. The intellect can be said to see in some sense
    2. The eye can be said to see in some sense

    1. Socrates is a human in some sense
    2. Plato is a human in some sense

    By your lights, both of these sets would be "univocal" predications, when in the first case it would be false to say so and true in the second. This wouldn't be the case if they were truly univocal predications.

    Secondly, you can't have it both ways; if you agree that the dfs. are properly:

    Univocal
    Same R predicated of two subjects according to the same S

    Analogical
    Same R predicated of two subjects according to different S

    Then removing 'same' and 'different' gives you the same df.:

    Same R predicated of two subjects according to an S (which may or may not be the same)

    And ipso facto, one has no warrant to say this is univocal at all.

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  72. Josh:

    The words you're using are the same, but if the predication itself isn't univocal, then exactly the opposite is true: C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being isn't the same in both X and Y. Very simply put, unless you include an implicit meaning of the senses as same or different, you aren't really predicating anything. That formulation you have is neither univocal nor analogical in nature.

    And that’s what I don’t understand, because you could say the same thing about the following:

    (1) Socrates is an animal
    (2) Fido the dog is an animal

    After all, what this ultimately means is:

    (3) Socrates is animal = Socrates is the form of animality-instantiated-in-a-particular-being
    (4) Fido the dog is an animal = Fido is form of animality-instantiated-in-a-particular-being

    If your objection were valid, then we could say that (3) and (4) are incomplete, because they do not explicitly mention whether the kind of animality is rational or non-rational, and to fully make that explicit, then we would have:

    (5) Socrates is animal = Socrates is the form of animality-instantiated-in-a-particular-being-that-is-rational
    (6) Fido the dog is an animal = Fido is form of animality-instantiated-in-a-particular-being-that-is-non-rational

    And certainly (5) and (6) are not univocal at all, because of the different modes of animality involved, i.e. rational or non-rational.

    Nope, using the words you've set there doesn't get you to either univocal or analogical predication. We have to know whether the meanings are being applied in the same way across the two subjects for us to have a case of univocal predication; it's a necessary condition. I don't know how else to point this out.

    But we do know that they are being applied in the same way, because “C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being” means the same thing in both predications. Sure, which particular mode of being may be different, but that would conflate a higher category or genus (or whatever you want to call it) and its particular instantiations. I would say that C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being is the higher category of genus (or whatever), and what the particular mode of being that C is instantiated as is lower in the chain of classification, much like whether an animal is rational or non-rational is lower down the chain.

    By your lights, both of these sets would be "univocal" predications, when in the first case it would be false to say so and true in the second. This wouldn't be the case if they were truly univocal predications.

    I agree that they would both be univocal predications. In the former pair of propositions, the predicate is “to see in some sense”, and I don’t see why that particular proposition has a different meaning in each predication. Sure, it can be further analyzed into what precise sense of sight is involved, but if we stay on the higher category (or whatever), then the meaning remains the same, I think.

    So, maybe our disagreement is about whether a higher category (or whatever) can retain the same meaning when predicated of two different subjects while one abstracts away the different particularizing features that are implied within that higher category? I say "yes", and you seem to say "no".

    Any thoughts?

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  73. f your objection were valid, then we could say that (3) and (4) are incomplete, because they do not explicitly mention whether the kind of animality is rational or non-rational, and to fully make that explicit, then we would have:


    I addressed this above: humans and animals explicitly do not differ qua animality; and when we predicate animal of them it is according to a univocal understanding, material, sensate being. No reference to rationality, which doesn't belong to animal nature as such.

    In the former pair of propositions, the predicate is “to see in some sense”, and I don’t see why that particular proposition has a different meaning in each predication.

    You're not dealing with how I teased out the definitions--again, You're either committed to saying that

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being the same as Y's
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being the same as X's

    is univocal, or

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being

    is univocal. These two are not the same, and in the second case, there is nothing to differentiate it from analogical predication, precisely because you've abstracted away the difference. But all this can ever reveal meaningwise is the common reference point of the predicate. You aren't revealing anything positive that wasn't given already by the predication itself. The second set there is merely a necessary and not a sufficient condition for analogical and univocal predication.

    The key to the semantic "emptyness" of this whole notion can be seen in the intellect/eye example. The intellect can be said to see in some sense, and it can be said to not see in some sense. All this proposition tells us is that the intellect sees, which is the R. I have no ability to judge whether sight predicated of those two subjects in that way is univocal or analogical.

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  74. Josh:

    I addressed this above: humans and animals explicitly do not differ qua animality; and when we predicate animal of them it is according to a univocal understanding, material, sensate being. No reference to rationality, which doesn't belong to animal nature as such.

    Rationality is virtually present in animality, i.e. as rational or non-rational. In other words, it is implicitly present, and can be made explicit by a specific difference. So, I don’t think that your response works, because animality is determinate in one sense, but indeterminate in another sense, and I think that C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being is also determinate in one sense, but indeterminate in another sense. In other words, C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being clearly states that C must exist in some mode of being, but it does not clearly specify which mode of being it is. Similarly, animality must exist as either rational or non-rational, but the form of animality itself does not specify which of these modes of animality it actually exists as. So, I’m still not seeing it.

    You're either committed to saying that

    (1) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being the same as Y's
    (2) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being the same as X's

    is univocal, or

    (3) X is C = X is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being
    (4) Y is C = Y is C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being

    is univocal.


    But (1) and (2) contain an equivocation. To say that C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being is the same as X’s or Y’s could mean either (a) that C-as-instantiated-in-a-particular-mode-of-being is the same in X and Y, or (b) that C-as-instantiated-in-this-particular-mode-of-being is the same in X and Y. I would say that both (a) is univocal predication irrespective of which particular mode of being of C is involved, and that (b) is univocal predication only if the same particular mode of being of C is involved in X and Y, and otherwise, would be analogical predication.

    But all this can ever reveal meaningwise is the common reference point of the predicate. You aren't revealing anything positive that wasn't given already by the predication itself. The second set there is merely a necessary and not a sufficient condition for analogical and univocal predication.

    And I think that saying that C must be instantiated in some particular mode of being does reveal “something positive” about X and Y. The question is whether this revelation of something positive is enough to warrant univocal predication. I really don’t see why not.

    The key to the semantic "emptyness" of this whole notion can be seen in the intellect/eye example. The intellect can be said to see in some sense, and it can be said to not see in some sense. All this proposition tells us is that the intellect sees, which is the R. I have no ability to judge whether sight predicated of those two subjects in that way is univocal or analogical.

    And again, I think that predicating sees-in-some-particular-mode-of-being is univocal predication, because the same sense and referent is preserved in both subjects. I think that you have to show that sees-in-some-particular-mode-of-being is empty, and I don’t think that you’ve done this. Otherwise, I could argue that predicating animality of a subject is equally empty, because it doesn’t specify which particular kind of animal you are talking about, e.g. rational or non-rational, and until you specify this, then it is “empty”.

    By the way, I think that we are zeroing in on the key difference between us on this matter, and I thank you for your patience and diligence in this regard.

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  75. See the discussions at SacredWeb.com, issues 30, 31, and the coming issue 32.

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  76. What possible middle ground could be had for the two? Is there a middle position? Also, can a Thomist retain Aristotelian Metaphysics even if say for the sake argument they don't hold to the absolute divine simplicity of Aquinas? Could they hold to a Palamite view instead while still being thomists in all other regards?

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