Wednesday, December 4, 2013

Dude, where’s my Being?


It must be Kick-a-Neo-Scholastic week.  Thomas Cothran calls us Nietzscheans and now my old grad school buddy Dale Tuggy implicitly labels us atheists.  More precisely, commenting on the view that “God is not a being, one among others… [but rather] Being Itself,” Dale opines that “this is not a Christian view of God, and isn’t even any sort of monotheism.  In fact, this type of view has always competed with the monotheisms.”  Indeed, he indicates that “this type of view – and I say this not to abuse, but only to describe – is a kind of atheism.”  (Emphasis in the original.) 

Atheism?  Really?  What is this, The Twilight Zone?  No, it’s a bad Ashton Kutcher movie (if you’ll pardon the redundancy), with metaphysical amnesia replacing the drug-induced kind -- Heidegger’s “forgetfulness of Being” meets Dude, Where’s My Car? 

Now, to be fair, Dale isn’t directly commenting on Neo-Scholasticism, specifically, nor even on Thomism more generally.  He’s responding to Paul Tillich as channeled through James McGrath.  All the same, while (as I have noted before myself) Tillich got certain things seriously wrong, he is from the point of view of traditional Christian theology -- and certainly from the point of view of Thomism and other forms of Scholasticism -- spot on correct to hold that “God is not a being, one among others… [but rather] Being Itself.”  As Orthodox blogger Fr. Aidan Kimel remarks:

I was surprised by [Tuggy’s] statement.  Right off the top of my head, I can think of three Christian theologians of antiquity who identified divinity and Being—St Gregory of Nazianzus, St Augustine of Hippo, and St Thomas Aquinas.  I can also think of three Christian theologians who preferred to speak of God as “beyond Being”—Dionysius, St Maximus the Confessor, and St Gregory Palamas. And not one had a problem identifying their God with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

(By the way, don’t miss Fr. Kimel’s old seminarians’ joke while you’re over there.)  Fr. Kimel goes on to note that Dale is evidently committed to what Brian Davies calls “theistic personalism” (and what Norman Geisler calls “neo-theism”) rather than to the classical theism that has traditionally been at the core of Christian (and Jewish, and Muslim, and purely philosophical) theology.  (Fr. Kimel offers some further remarks on theistic personalism in a follow-up post.)

Dale, for his part, essentially confirms this characterization of his position.  Indeed, he sounds positively Feserian in the brash confidence of his assertions, glibly averring in the combox of a follow-up post of his own: “Feser’s ‘theistic personalism’ is just what most philosophers call ‘theism,’ i.e. monotheism.”

Now, if by “most philosophers” Dale means “most contemporary philosophers who subscribe to Faith and Philosophy and Philosophia Christi, and who hang out in the faculty lounge at Calvin College or Biola,” he may well be right, and by a comfortable margin.  But, ecumenical guy that he is, I’m sure he wouldn’t want to leave out readers of ACPQ and The Thomist, or the lounge dwellers at Fordham or CUA.  And when we factor those votes in, things start to look more like the 2000 presidential election rather than the 2008.  Then there is the consideration that the American Philosophical Association has, I believe, recently declared it discriminatory to leave metabolically challenged philosophers out of one’s Appeals to Authority-cum-Majority.  And when we factor in all the dead guys, it’s a Reagan-in-‘84-style landslide for the classical theists, both in quantity and quality.  We classical theists have Plato, Aristotle, Philo of Alexandria, Plotinus, Augustine, Boethius, Anselm, Maimonides, Avicenna, Averroes, Aquinas, Scotus, and about a gazillion other Scholastics, Neo-Platonists, and Aristotelians.  Not to mention a lot of early Protestants, and not a few later ones.  Dale’s got Plantinga, Swinburne, Hartshorne, and the SCP email list.  Really smart guys and gals, to be sure, but… well, there it is. 

Here’s what else I think Dale’s got: a bad case of presentism.  (And like Dale, I say this not to abuse, but only to describe!)  This presentism is obvious enough from the straight-faced, flat assertion that God-as-Being-Itself is “not a Christian view of God” and indeed “is a kind of atheism.”  If your standard of what counts as “a Christian view” is the conventional wisdom in contemporary American academic philosophy of religion circles, then I suppose such a claim could pass the laugh test.   But if your standard is what most Christian philosophers and theologians have held historically, then Dale’s assertion is just a howler.  One would think that someone who makes a claim that implies that the position of (say) Thomas Aquinas -- whose favored description of God was ipsum esse subsistens or Subsistent Being Itself -- was “not a Christian view” and indeed amounts to “a kind of atheism,” would do so just a little more tentatively.

Another indication of presentism is what Dale says when he offers a philosophical critique of the notion of Being Itself.  He writes:

“Being itself” is of dubious intelligibility. When I think of all the beings in space and time, to me, they do not seem to be one whole anything. Nor does there some [sic] to be some stuff of which all are made. It positively seems possible that there be no things in space and time and [sic] all. Were this to be so, would Being Itself still be there? I assume not. If not, then Being Itself would seem to be a contingent and dependent entity. If such a thing existed, it would seem that it’s [sic] existence would be explained, if it is explained, by something else.

But even if we grant that “Being Itself” is a meaningful term, it’s not clear why we should believe in such a thing. We can of course consider appeals to mystical experiences

End quote.  Now, anyone familiar with Thomism, Neo-Platonism, and classical metaphysics more generally is bound to find all of this as mystifying as Dale finds Being Itself.  It just bears no interesting relationship whatsoever to what philosophers in these traditions actually mean by “Being Itself.”  Dale seems to think that the notion of Being Itself is the notion of the collection of all the individual spatiotemporal beings there are taken together (“all the beings in space and time” making up “one whole”); or that it is the “stuff” out of which they are all made. 

This is sort of like saying that Plato’s Form of the Good is the collection of individual good things within time and space taken as one big lump, or a kind of “stuff” out of which such good things are made; or that triangularity is identical with the collection of actual triangles, or with the ink, graphite, chalk, etc., with which we draw triangles.  This would, of course, be a ludicrous travesty of the notion of a Form or a universal.  Not that Being Itself is a form or universal -- it isn’t.  But a Platonic Form is a far better first approximation than anything that seems to occur to Dale.  Indeed, of all the four causes -- formal, material, efficient, and final -- Dale has picked precisely the one (material cause) on which no Neo-Platonic, Aristotelian, or Scholastic metaphysician would model Being Itself!

For Aquinas, it is in terms of efficient and final cause, especially, that we are to think of Being Itself, insofar as God is our first cause and last end.  And here we come to Dale’s astounding remark that “it’s not clear why we should believe in such a thing.”  As if the various Neo-Platonic, Aristotelian, and Thomistic arguments for God’s existence had never been written!  And as if these arguments for the existence of that which is Being Itself were not at the very same time the answer to the question of what it means to say that there is such a thing as Being Itself.  For in fact the two questions cannot, for the classical metaphysician, be separated. 

To follow out the logic of the Aristotelian theory of act and potency is (the Aristotelian maintains) to see why there must be (and to see what it means to say there must be) a purely actual cause of the actualization of all potentiality.  To follow out the logic of the Neo-Platonic analysis of composition and multiplicity is (the Neo-Platonist maintains) to see why there must be (and to see what it means to say there must be) a source of all reality which is absolutely simple or non-composite and necessarily unique.  To follow out the logic of the Thomistic analysis of essence and existence is (so the Thomist maintains) to see why there must be (and to see what it means to say there must be) a cause of the existence of things whose essence just is existence.  And all of these arguments have the implication that the ultimate explanation of things cannot in principle be “a being” among other beings but Being Itself.  (I’ve defended such arguments in several places, e.g. here, here, here, here, and here.)

Dale has to know that arguments of this sort exist, and yet he writes as if no one has ever given an argument for the existence of, or an account of the meaning of talk about, Being Itself, other than perhaps an appeal to mystical experience.  It’s as if he thought: “The notion of ‘Being Itself’ doesn’t fit anything that pops into my head as I write this blog post.  Nor do I remember hearing it talked about in any of the papers I sat in on at the last APA meeting.  Nor do I much feel like reading a bunch of Neo-Platonic and Thomist stuff.  So, the notion of Being Itself is of dubious intelligibility. Q.E.D.” 

In the combox of this particular post of Dale’s, a couple of his readers -- including one who sympathizes with his views -- implore him to grapple seriously with the arguments of Thomists. In response to the first, Dale writes:

Would it make an sense to ask such a being [i.e. Pure Actuality] a question? Argue with it? Could it communicate its thoughts to us? Could such a being love humans so much, that he sent his Son to be a sacrifice for our sin?

I take it, the answer is, No. Such a being can’t be affected, can’t respond. Can’t intend to communicate, literally can’t feel compassion or intentionally do anything. I take it, then, that such a “God” is a rival ultimate being to the God of the Bible, the heavenly Father.

End quote.  As if Thomists hadn’t heard, and answered, such objections many times over!  (See especially, among recent analytic philosophers of religion, the work of Brian Davies.  I’ve addressed such issues in some of the posts collected here.)

In response to the second reader -- who agrees with Dale but is unsatisfied with a glib dismissal and asks him actually to engage with the Thomist analysis of being -- Dale writes:

Honestly… past experience has made me wary of diving into that particular philosophical mud pit.  And time and energy are finite.

Well.  Hard to know what to say in response to that, other than to confirm for the reader that, yes, that came from a Christian philosopher’s combox and not (say) Jerry Coyne’s.

Nor do Dale’s responses (or lack thereof) to the arguments of the other side alone leave something to be desired.  He seems utterly oblivious to the grave difficulties facing his own, theistic personalist or neo-theist, point of view.  Consider his description of God as “a self” and his explanation of what this amounts to:

a self – roughly, a being with a point of view, knowledge, and will – which needn’t be human. An alien, a god, a spirit, a ghost. So, thinking of a God as a self needn’t get anywhere near true anthropomorphism (e.g. God is a dude with a beard who lives on a mountain). 

The trouble with this is that it simply misses the point entirely to think that one has sidestepped the problems classical theists are calling attention to merely by avoiding characterizing God as “a dude with a beard who lives on a mountain.”  The real problem is what Dale does admit to, namely calling God “a self” and “a God.”  Part of the problem here is the stuff about “having a point of view.”  God doesn’t have a “point of view”; that utterly trivializes divine knowledge, as if it were merely a matter of being extremely perceptive or maximally well perched.  But put that aside, because contrary to a common misunderstanding, the classical theist does not deny that God is personal.  (See, again, the posts collected here.)  When the theistic personalist says that “God is a person” or “God is a self,” the problem is not so much words like “person” or “self,” but rather the word “a.”  Making of God an instance of a kind is the key problem.  If God is that, then he is not the ultimate reality, because he will be metaphysically less fundamental than the kind he instantiates, and less fundamental than whatever it is that accounts for the kind’s being instantiated in him. 

Since I’ve addressed this aspect of the dispute between classical theism and theistic personalism at some length in my recent exchange with John Leslie and Robert Lawrence Kuhn, I’ll direct the interested reader to the last installment of that exchange.  Plus, since I like Dale, I don’t want to beat up on him any further. 

Instead I’ll sit back and watch David Bentley Hart do it.  In his recent book The Experience of God, Hart complains that contemporary analytic philosophers have uncritically swallowed the Fregean notion that existence is entirely captured by the existential quantifier; that they have become so dogmatically attached to this supposition that they are unable even properly to understand the arguments of classical metaphysicians vis-à-vis being and essence; and that the whole exercise is in any event metaphysically pointless since we still need to know what makes it the case that “There is an x such that…,” and the Fregean notion of existence simply doesn’t address this question (which is, for the classical metaphysician, the question).  I think he’s largely right on all three counts.  (I say this as someone who was trained as an analytic philosopher, and as someone who has had my own public disagreements with Hart on other matters.)  Too many contemporary philosophers have simply lost sight of the very question of the being of things -- and thereby lost sight, really, of what philosophy is, or so we old-fashioned metaphysicians would say.

I also warmly endorse Hart’s comments on theistic personalism:

Many Anglophone theistic philosophers who deal with these issues today… reared as they have been in a post-Fregean intellectual environment, have effectively broken with classical theistic tradition altogether, adopting a style of thinking that the Dominican philosopher Brian Davies calls theistic personalism.  I prefer to call it monopolytheism myself (or perhaps “mono-poly-theism”), since it seems to me to involve a view of God not conspicuously different from the polytheistic picture of the gods as merely very powerful discrete entities who possess a variety of distinct attributes that lesser entities also possess, if in smaller measure; it differs from polytheism, as far as I can tell, solely in that it posits the existence of only one such being.  It is a way of thinking that suggests that God, since he is only a particular instantiation of various concepts and properties, is logically dependent on some more comprehensive reality embracing both him and other beings.  For philosophers who think in this way, practically all the traditional metaphysical attempts to understand God as the source of all reality become impenetrable…To take a particularly important example: There is an ancient metaphysical doctrine that the source of all things -- God, that is -- must be essentially simple; that is, God cannot possess distinct parts, or even distinct properties, and in himself does not allow even of a distinction between essence and existence… [M]y conviction [is] that the idea is not open to dispute if one believes that God stands at the end of reason’s journey toward the truth of all things; it seems obvious to me that a denial of divine simplicity is tantamount to atheism, and the vast preponderance of metaphysical tradition concurs with that judgment.  And yet there are today Christian philosophers of an analytic bent who are quite content to cast the doctrine aside, either in whole or in part.  (pp. 127-128)

For the reason why a denial of divine simplicity -- which is the core of the theistic personalist critique of classical theism -- is “tantamount to atheism,” see again my recent reply to Leslie and Kuhn.  Suffice it for present purposes to note that if Dale wants to play “pin the atheist label on the fellow Christian,” it is evidently a game made for two.  Or as we Thomists like to say in good Scholastic Latin, nyah nyah

476 comments:

  1. LOL! Once again, guller, my boy, utterly full of crap. In all of my 'invective' here, what have I ever said (quote me - i.e., in a context where I'm giving my own position, as opposed to showing the absurdity of yours) that contradicts Aquinas (quote him)?

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  2. guller: x, y, and z.
    guller's interlocutor: But y is nonsense and z is irrelevant.
    g: Fine if you want to deny x, be my guest.
    gi: No, guller, you're missing the point - that's not what I was criticizing.
    g: No, you just need to understand that you're really arguing against Aquinas himself - look right here in ST I.13 where Aquinas says w, just like I've been saying he does: "v" (ST I.13.5 obj. 2).
    gi: But guller, Aquinas says v, not w, and that's irrelevant to x, which isn't what I was criticizing anyway.
    g: Right. But my point is that if you disagree with me, you better realize that you're really disagreeing with Aquinas.
    gi: Behold! - the divine archetype of the twitness of guller! *shrug*

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  3. David M:

    LOL! Once again, guller, my boy, utterly full of crap. In all of my 'invective' here, what have I ever said (quote me - i.e., in a context where I'm giving my own position, as opposed to showing the absurdity of yours) that contradicts Aquinas (quote him)?

    I already did at December 10, 2013 at 1:08 PM. Have a look and tell me what you think.

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  4. David M:

    Oh, and one last thing. You earlier claimed that my account of Aquinas’ theory of pure equivocation was incorrect. I wrote that “saying that P in (1) and (2) has different senses and referents […] is precisely what Aquinas means by “pure equivocation”," and you replied by saying that “that's not exactly what Aquinas means by 'pure equivocation'”. You later asked me to provide “a passage where he uses that term and I'll do my best to explain what he means”. I provided many quotations from Aquinas regarding pure equivocation. I would love for you to explain what Aquinas means by “pure equivocation”, and how it differs from my explanation.

    Thanks.

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  5. No, you already didn't! (Dear me: curiouser and curiouser!) In the post mentioned you do NOT quote Aquinas. So where's the Aquinas quote that contradicts my position? Here's quoting me:

    me: “Well it's certainly obvious that God's wisdom and Socrates' wisdom are not identical, isn't it?”

    dguller: “I doubt that you would say that P has the same sense in (1) and (2) …”.
    me: “I'm glad you doubt that.”

    Now what about Aquinas?

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  6. David M:

    No, you already didn't! (Dear me: curiouser and curiouser!) In the post mentioned you do NOT quote Aquinas.

    If you would have read on to the next paragraph, I specifically said that “I have provided a number of quotes from Aquinas himself, as well as several Thomist scholars, that endorses this position”. And what “number of quotes from Aquinas himself, as well as several Thomist scholars” could I have been talking about? Why, the ones that are present at December 10, 2013 at 9:01 AM and at December 10, 2013 at 12:38 PM. Have a look, and tell me what you think, if you don’t mind.

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  7. guller (with great sincerity):
    "I would love for you to explain what Aquinas means by “pure equivocation”, and how it differs from my explanation."

    Aquinas:
    "… it must be noted that a term is predicated of different things in various senses. Sometimes it is predicated of them according to a meaning which is entirely the same, and then it is said to be predicated of them univocally, as animal is predicated of a horse and of an ox. Sometimes it is predicated of them according to meanings which are entirely different, and then it is said to be predicated of them equivocally, as dog is predicated of a star and of an animal. And sometimes it is predicated of them according to meanings which are partly different and partly not (different inasmuch as they imply different relationships, and the same inasmuch as these different relationships are referred to one and the same thing), and then it is said “to be predicated analogously,” i.e., proportionally, according as each one by its own relationship is referred to that one same thing." (In Meta 4.1.535)

    GULLER (apparently doing his level best to explain Aquinas' account of equivocation):
    "“saying that P in (1) and (2) has different senses and referents […] is precisely what Aquinas means by 'pure equivocation'"

    me:
    Do I really have to explain this??

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  8. David M:

    Do I really have to explain this??

    So, the crux of our disagreement is with whether Aquinas claims that pure equivocation not only involves different senses, but also involves different referents. When Aquinas writes that “a name is attached to an object that has no relation to another object bearing the same name”, the “object” that he is talking about is the referent of the name. When Aquinas writes that “it is entirely accidental that one name is applied to diverse things”, the “diverse things” here are different referents of the names in question. When Aquinas writes that “the same word has been used by one person for one thing, and then by someone else for an entirely different thing”, the “one thing” and “an entirely different thing” is about different referents. And when you add the fact that reputable Thomist scholars have endorsed the idea that different referents is an essential part of “pure equivocation”, as Aquinas understands it, then my case is strengthened. And like I said, I could add other scholars to support my interpretation, but I think I’ve made my point.

    Now, this is not to say that your interpretation is impossible and necessarily false. It is certainly possible that Aquinas’ account of pure equivocation made no reference to referents at all, and exclusively applies to sense and meaning. I just don’t think that it is likely, given the totality of the primary evidence, as well as the secondary literature. I think it is far more likely that Aquinas included different referents as part of his account of pure equivocation.

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  9. David M:

    And since you objected so strenuously to Michael’s initial account, I’d like to repeat it here:

    “Does the term “wise” in both statements mean the same? To answer this question we must make a judgment about the principles of signification, and there are two: A) the referent and B) the way the referent is being signified. Based on prior Thomistic arguments and considerations, we necessarily judge that principle A is the same in both predications. But, again based on prior Thomistic arguments and considerations, we necessarily judge that principle B is not the same. And therefore we conclude that the terms are being predicated analogically. The meanings of the terms are not the same, but nor are they completely different—the meanings are related.

    “Exactly how they are related? Answer: they have the same referent. So far, so good. But dguller might say but how are their B principles related? And the answer is: they’re not, at least not in any relevant way that allows for dguller’s regression of difference and sameness.”

    Compare Michael’s account to Ralph McInerny’s account of analogy:

    “Analogous names thus have the same res significata and diverse modi significandi. Each ratio involves both the res significata and a way of signifying it. The ratio propria is not the res significata, but the primary and controlling way of signifying the res significata […] We see now the precise meaning of saying that the many rationes of the analogous name are partly the same and partly different. They are the same as to the res significata; they differ as to the modi significandi” (Aquinas and Analogy, pp. 99-100).

    If you assume that the res significata is “the referent” and the modus significandi is “the way the referent is being signified”, then the accounts are exactly the same.

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  10. "So, the crux of our disagreement is with whether Aquinas claims that pure equivocation not only involves different senses, but also involves different referents."

    No, guller. That's. not. it. Again you are completely full. of. crap. Ignoratio elenchi.

    Listen man: It is a given, it is perfectly obvious, that we are talking about different referents in the case of equivocation. But it is not part of the account of equivocation per se, because equivocal predication is NO DIFFERENT from univocal or analogical predication in this respect: ALL THREE kinds of predication PRESUPPOSE different referents. This PRESUPPOSITION is not relevant to the SPECIFIC account of any of the three kinds of predication.

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  11. ...and guller, before you rattle off any more irrelevant citations, PLEASE notice: you entirely ignored the most important difference between your account and Aquinas': the word "entirely."

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  12. (I can't believe I actually DID have to explain that - damn!)

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  13. David M:

    Listen man: It is a given, it is perfectly obvious, that we are talking about different referents in the case of equivocation. But it is not part of the account of equivocation per se, because equivocal predication is NO DIFFERENT from univocal or analogical predication in this respect: ALL THREE kinds of predication PRESUPPOSE different referents. This PRESUPPOSITION is not relevant to the SPECIFIC account of any of the three kinds of predication.

    First, it is not “given” or “obvious”. I have cited numerous Thomist scholars who concur with Michael’s account of analogy. If you object to Michael’s account, then you also object to the Thomist account of analogy. It’s that simple, and like I said, that’s perfectly fine to do, but just be clear that you are attacking the Thomist account, and not some dumbass account by ignorant combox morons.

    Second, if you are correct that all three kinds of predication necessarily “presuppose different referents”, then the only factor that distinguishes them is the sense or meaning of the terms. I’ve long argued that one only has three options here:

    (1) The senses have everything in common = univocal predication
    (2) The senses have something in common = analogical predication
    (3) The senses have nothing in common = equivocal predication

    (1) and (2) are not problematic, but (3) is highly problematic, I think. It is impossible for two senses to have absolutely nothing in common. At the very least, they are both senses, amongst many other commonalities. So, (3) is impossible, and thus false, which only leaves (1) and (2), but that eliminates equivocal predication altogether. Perhaps a solution would be involve degrees of commonality in which when two senses are close enough to certain extent, then they are analogical, and when they are distant enough to a certain extent, then they are equivocal?

    before you rattle off any more irrelevant citations, PLEASE notice: you entirely ignored the most important difference between your account and Aquinas': the word "entirely."

    Of course, I did. That’s why I bolded the word “entirely” in my comment above.

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  14. David M:

    Oh, and one more thing. You wrote that “ALL THREE kinds of predication PRESUPPOSE different referents”. That is manifestly false when it comes to univocal predication. Take the following statements:

    (1) The apple is red
    (2) The car is red

    “Red” in (1) and (2) have the same referent, i.e. the color red.

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  15. David M:

    And I can’t resist, but just one last thing.

    In the passage that you cited at Aquinas’ commentary on Aristotle’s Metaphysics, he writes: “Sometimes it is predicated of them according to meanings which are entirely different, and then it is said to be predicated of them equivocally”. Now, don’t get mad at me, but the Latin terms that Aquinas uses for “meanings which are entirely different” is “rationes omnino diversas”. So, the Latin for “meanings” is “rationes”. McInerny has written that “Each ratio involves both the res significata and a way of signifying it”, which means that meaning (or ratio) involves a sense (or modus significandi) and a referent (or res significata), and that means that an entirely different meaning would have to involve a different sense and referent, because if it only involved a different sense or referent, then it wouldn’t be entirely different, now would it?

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  16. guller:
    "First, it is not “given” or “obvious”. I have cited numerous Thomist scholars who concur with Michael’s account of analogy. If you object to Michael’s account, then you also object to the Thomist account of analogy."

    Aquinas:
    "… it must be noted that a term is predicated of different things in various senses. Sometimes it is predicated of them according to a meaning which is entirely the same, and then it is said to be predicated of them univocally, as animal is predicated of a horse and of an ox. Sometimes it is predicated of them according to meanings which are entirely different, and then it is said to be predicated of them equivocally, as dog is predicated of a star and of an animal. And sometimes it is predicated of them according to meanings which are partly different and partly not (different inasmuch as they imply different relationships, and the same inasmuch as these different relationships are referred to one and the same thing), and then it is said “to be predicated analogously,” i.e., proportionally, according as each one by its own relationship is referred to that one same thing." (In Meta 4.1.535)

    guller:
    (1) The apple is red
    (2) The car is red

    “Red” in (1) and (2) have the same referent, i.e. the color red.

    No. No apple is the color red and no car is the color red. The referent of 'red' is not simply 'the color red.' (If you actually understood the McInerny you're reading, I believe he points this out - see fn.26 on p. 100.)

    "The apple is red" - possible.

    "The apple is the color red" - impossible.

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  17. guller:
    Where does McInerny say that res significata is interchangeable with the term 'referent'? I see where he equates it to 'form or perfection' - but what about 'referent'?

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  18. guller:
    McInerny explains the term ratio as he uses it on p. 87. You don't need to substitute your own shit.

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  19. A quick question to any mathematicians and/or Platonist.

    I have recently been reading some philosophical work on Mathematical Platonism. One of the main arguments of the nominalists is the epistemological objection. Namely, that humans do not have any causal relationship with abstract numbers and therefore cannot know them.

    What would be the response of the Platonist or the Aristotelian to such objection?

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  20. "McInerny has written that “Each ratio involves both the res significata and a way of signifying it”, which means that meaning (or ratio) involves a sense (or modus significandi) and a referent (or res significata), and that means that an entirely different meaning would have to involve a different sense and referent, because if it only involved a different sense or referent, then it wouldn’t be entirely different, now would it?"

    Good grief! I have to laugh here. Trust me, dude: you're better off not trying to translate comprehensible explanations into your own jargon. Just leave shit as it is and try to understand it. When you constantly mess things up with your inept garbled translations into your own idiom, you guarantee that you'll never understand.

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  21. @dguller:

    "(1) The apple is red
    (2) The car is red

    'Red' in (1) and (2) have the same referent, i.e. the color red."

    "Red" is not the "referent" in any sense relevant to David M's point. The "referents" in the relevant sense are the apple and the car. "Red" is a term that is being predicated (in this case univocally) of each of those "referents."

    Note that if there were only a single "referent" of which a term could be predicated, we wouldn't be talking about univocity et cetera at all. The entire question of modes of predication arises only because we do predicate terms of more than one "referent" apiece.

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  22. If I may butt in.

    >Red” in (1) and (2) have the same referent, i.e. the color red.

    Color is not a perfection or a Universal so it can't be predicated of God except metaphorically. So why you are using it as an example as opposed to being, goodness, intellect, wisdom, will, etc is a mystery.

    McInerny believes analogy is a logical doctrine regarding wither or not we can name God & how we can name Him.

    Cajetan believes in analogy by proportion & his views are identified associating analogy with the analogy of being. His view is identified with the Traditional School of Thomism.

    McInerny believes Cajetan is wrong and misinterpreted Aquinas.

    Some in the Traditional school say he is not wrong.

    That you treat analogy as one doctrine of Thomism when different schools have different important & opposing understandings is just further proof you are here to generate more heat then light or understanding.

    Without Fallacies of equivocation how would you discuss anything?

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  23. "Of course, I did. That’s why I bolded the word “entirely” in my comment above."

    I'm so glad you noticed! Any reason you chose not to comment on it? Did you love noticing how your account differs from Aquinas' as much as you expected you would?

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  24. "One of the main arguments of the nominalists is the epistemological objection. Namely, that humans do not have any causal relationship with abstract numbers and therefore cannot know them.

    What would be the response of the Platonist or the Aristotelian to such objection?"

    Probably that your nominalists are relying on a woefully inadequate understanding of "cause." It's pretty obvious, for example, that arithmetical and other mathematical relationships are involved in formal causes. Aristotle himself regarded numbers and ratios as part of the formal cause of musical intervals.

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  25. Scott wrote: "Red" is not the "referent" in any sense relevant to David M's point. The "referents" in the relevant sense are the apple and the car. "Red" is a term that is being predicated (in this case univocally) of each of those "referents."

    To clarify my point: I see no problem with referring to non-subsistent referents (like the redness of an apple). The point is that what 'red' refers to (and thus its 'referent') in the proposition "The apple is red" is the redness of the car - it does not refer to the color red. Aquinas makes this point in De ente et essential\, where he points out that we can say "Socrates is a man" but not "Socrates is humanity."

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  26. oops, correction: "...in the proposition "The apple is red" is the redness of the apple..."

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  27. @Anonymous:

    "I have recently been reading some philosophical work on Mathematical Platonism. One of the main arguments of the nominalists is the epistemological objection. Namely, that humans do not have any causal relationship with abstract numbers and therefore cannot know them."

    As Scott said. To expand a little bit (what follows is a slightly edited version of something I wrote elsewhere): we may not have a definite idea about what abstract objects are, but we do have some definite ideas about what we want to say that they are not: in particular, we want to say that they are not localized in space-time and have no causal powers. But what does this mean? Usually, it is meant in the sense that abstract objects have no *efficient* causal powers, but efficient causality is just one of the four modes of causality, and its modern usage is a narrow construal of the classical one at that. But why assume that to know abstract objects like numbers, there must be a chain of efficient causation involved?

    Leaving aside for now the exact nature of such abstract objects and the account of how we come to know them, it is simply not clear why abstract objects cannot be the objects of thought. For we can think about non-existent objects, such as unicorns, a thing which even the anti-realist must concede. The anti-realist may retort that such objects like unicorns, *if* they existed would be material objects and thus capable of being perceived and it is precisely because we do not perceive them that we have grounds to say that they do not exist. But given that abstract objects do not exist in space-time, our failure to perceive them tells us nothing whatsoever. So unless the anti-realist can give an argument that existence necessarily implies localization in space-time or some such, this is just question-begging. Moreover, given that we can think about them, even pose the question of whether they do exist or not as extra-mental entities, it is at least prima facie metaphysically possible that they do exist. And given that we can reason about them, as we surely can, it seems at least possible that we can reason to their existence, which is what the realist will contend he has done (**).

    (*) How "same" is to be interpreted is a subject of debate, so I will just bracket it.

    (**) Different stripes of realists will construe "existence" differently as applied to abstract objects, so the exact nature of the contention also varies.

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  28. @ Anon

    “One of the main arguments of the nominalists is the epistemological objection. Namely, that humans do not have any causal relationship with abstract numbers and therefore cannot know them.“

    In response, I first want to say that I agree with Scott; the nominalist probably is equivocating in his objection, arguing that abstractions have no efficient casual powers (which is what most people mean nowadays when they speak of causation), and then concluding that they have no casual powers, period.

    OTOH, I don’t think this objection was really designed to critique Aristotle’s theory, but to critique Plato’s. Since Plato’s theory treats abstractions as abstract substances and not merely abstract beings, it would seem that they have to use, or at least have, efficient casual powers to be causes. Since abstractions don’t seem to have efficient casual powers, and it seems that any substance without at least efficient casual power can’t exist, then abstractions can’t be substances, and therefore there are no such things as abstract substances.

    But from here, you can’t just jump to saying that there are no such things as abstractions period. They could be in a different category of being than substance, so the nominalist needs to rule these categories out too before they have completed their case.

    The nominalist also needs, as was stated earlier, to rule out the other modes of causality before they have completed their indirect argument, so really, this objection only has any teeth against Plato, and not Aristotle.

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  29. David M:

    it must be noted that a term is predicated of different things in various senses

    I think what Aquinas means by “different things” here is different subjects that a predicate is applied of. Take the following:

    (1) X is P
    (2) Y is P

    X and Y are the different subjects that the term P is predicated of. X and Y are the “different things” being described above. Sometimes P has the same meaning (or ratio) when it is predicated of X as when it is predicated of Y. Since meaning involves a modus and a res, as per McInerny, that means that the term P has the same modus and the same res when predicated of X and Y. That would be univocal predication. Sometimes P has an entirely different meaning when it is predicated of X as when it is predicated of Y, which means that P has a different modus and res when predicated of X and Y. That would be equivocal predication. Sometimes P has different modes, but the same res. That would be analogical predication. But you are correct that there are necessarily different subjects that the terms are being predicated of.

    No. No apple is the color red and no car is the color red. The referent of 'red' is not simply 'the color red.' (If you actually understood the McInerny you're reading, I believe he points this out - see fn.26 on p. 100.)

    First, the “is” is not the “is” of identity, but the “is” of predication. I thought you were big on paying attention to the logical grammar?

    Second, the referent of “red” is the color red, particularly as it is instantiated in a concrete subject. In other words, we are referring to the form of redness as individuated in a concrete being.

    Third, footnote 26 is on page 99, and not page 100, and it is a long Latin quotation from De Ente et Essentia that is supposed to support the claim that “the form or essence is predicated of the individual only as concretely signified, never as abstractly signified” (Ibid., p. 98). But that only means that the form F is predicated of an individual as instantiated in that individual. In other words, if X is the individual, then predicated F of X means F-in-X. However, I think it’s pretty clear that talking about F-in-X necessarily involves talking about F itself.

    Where does McInerny say that res significata is interchangeable with the term 'referent'? I see where he equates it to 'form or perfection' - but what about 'referent'?

    The res significata is “what the word signifies” (Ibid., p. 76) or “what is signified” (Ibid., p. 103). As he says elsewhere: “What constitutes a name as a name is the fact that it signifies something, and that something is either the ratio or a thing via the ratio” (Ibid., p. 88). Rocca calls it “the reality signified” (Ibid., p. 334). Isn’t that what a referent is, i.e. that which is signified by a name?

    McInerny explains the term ratio as he uses it on p. 87. You don't need to substitute your own shit.

    Um, I quoted McInerny as saying that “[e]ach ratio involves both the res significata and a way of signifying it” (Ibid., p. 99). It’s not my “own shit”.

    Good grief! I have to laugh here. Trust me, dude: you're better off not trying to translate comprehensible explanations into your own jargon. Just leave shit as it is and try to understand it. When you constantly mess things up with your inept garbled translations into your own idiom, you guarantee that you'll never understand.

    That’s my understanding of modus significandi and res significata. If you think that my interpretation is so wildly ridiculous, what do these terms mean to you?

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  30. I'm so glad you noticed! Any reason you chose not to comment on it? Did you love noticing how your account differs from Aquinas' as much as you expected you would?

    It didn’t differ at all, as far as I can see. If McInerny is correct that the ratio involves both a modus and a res, then two “entirely different” rationes would have to involve different modi and different res. Say that they had different modi, but the same res. They wouldn’t be “entirely different”, then, because they have the same res in common. How can two things be “entirely different”, and yet be the same in some way? At most, they would be partially different. The only way for the rationes to be “entirely different” is if they had different modi and res. Or, perhaps you mean something in particular by “entirely different”?

    To clarify my point: I see no problem with referring to non-subsistent referents (like the redness of an apple). The point is that what 'red' refers to (and thus its 'referent') in the proposition "The apple is red" is the redness of the apple - it does not refer to the color red. Aquinas makes this point in De ente et essential\, where he points out that we can say "Socrates is a man" but not "Socrates is humanity."

    But to say that Socrates is a man must refer to the form of humanity within him. The referent would be the form of humanity, but the form of humanity is instantiated in Socrates as a concrete individual, which just means that the form of humanity exists in a particular mode of being in Socrates. Similarly, to say that an apple is red must make reference to the form of redness as instantiated in the apple. That is what the predicate “red” means in this statement.

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  31. >That’s my understanding of modus significandi and res significata. If you think that my interpretation is so wildly ridiculous, what do these terms mean to you?

    Since when do you give a shit about anyone's understanding or interpretation other then the one you make up?

    You invent your own nonsense & equivocate at the drop of a hat.

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  32. Guys,

    IMHO, you're (understandably) barking up the wrong tree in this whole fight. The closest I've seen anyone get to the heart of the argument is Michael--his post would be the one to study. I hope I can help clarify:

    Dguller:
    (1) The senses have everything in common = univocal predication
    (2) The senses have something in common = analogical predication
    (3) The senses have nothing in common = equivocal predication

    My account:
    Univocal predication: Same S & R
    Equivocal: Diff. S & R
    Analogical: Diff. S & Same R

    S and R here loosely translate to McInerney's modus and res respectively. Ratio is another word for meaning of the concrete term composed of an S and R, or mode and res.

    My account above necessarily refers to predication, Dguller's refers to the abstracted senses. In my account, senses or modes would be different in equivocal and analogical predication. For me, what the senses have in common in analogical predication, is merely their shared reference to the R, and nothing more. The challenge to Dguller is to show a similarity relationship between modi significandi, or senses, that doesn't reify an abstraction, i.e., making the senses into concrete terms with their own referents apart from the original subjects of the predication. I don't think this possible. Now fight it out, and hopefully cleanly.

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  33. Ben:

    Since when do you give a shit about anyone's understanding or interpretation other then the one you make up?

    I always care about other people's understandings, including those of rude and obnoxious individuals, such as yourself. I don't always agree with them, but that's a whole other issue. And I certainly will admit to being wrong, which I have been on a number of topics here, when I am demonstrated to be wrong. I'm the first to admit that I do not have the truth, and am only a humble seeker.

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  34. "But to say that Socrates is a man must refer to the form of humanity within him. The referent would be the form of humanity, but the form of humanity is instantiated in Socrates as a concrete individual, which just means that the form of humanity exists in a particular mode of being in Socrates."

    So Socrates is humanity?

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  35. Anonymous:

    So Socrates is humanity?

    No. Socrates is the instantiation of the form of humanity as a particular individual. But one cannot be the instantiation of the form F without making reference to F. So, part of Socrates’ identity involves the form of humanity. That is what it means to say that Socrates is a human being.

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  36. guller, here's a passage you might be interested in where Aquinas uses both of your pet terms: modus significandi (which clearly means nothing like 'sense' in Frege's sense (Frege's Sinn)) and res significata (if you have others in mind, please let me know - I'll chase this white whale to the death!):

    SCG I.30:
    Dico autem aliqua praedictorum nominum perfectionem absque defectu importare, quantum ad illud ad quod significandum nomen fuit impositum: quantum enim ad modum significandi, omne nomen cum defectu est. Nam nomine res exprimimus eo modo quo intellectu concipimus. Intellectus autem noster, ex sensibus cognoscendi initium sumens, illum modum non transcendit qui in rebus sensibilibus invenitur, in quibus aliud est forma et habens formam, propter formae et materiae compositionem. Forma vero in his rebus invenitur quidem simplex, sed imperfecta, utpote non subsistens: habens autem formam invenitur quidem subsistens, sed non simplex, immo concretionem habens. Unde intellectus noster, quidquid significat ut subsistens, significat in concretione: quod vero ut simplex, significat non ut quod est, sed ut quo est. Et sic in omni nomine a nobis dicto, quantum ad modum significandi, imperfectio invenitur, quae Deo non competit, quamvis res significata aliquo eminenti modo Deo conveniat: ut patet in nomine bonitatis et boni; nam bonitas significat ut non subsistens, bonum autem ut concretum. Et quantum ad hoc nullum nomen Deo convenienter aptatur, sed solum quantum ad id ad quod significandum nomen imponitur. Possunt igitur, ut Dionysius docet, huiusmodi nomina et affirmari de Deo et negari: affirmari quidem, propter nominis rationem; negari vero, propter significandi modum.

    But I say that some of the previously mentioned names imply a perfection without defect, as regards that for the signifying of which the name was imposed; for as regards the mode of signifying, every name is with defect. For by a name we express the thing in the way in which by the intellect we conceive it. But our intellect, taking the beginning of its cognizing from the senses, does not transcend that mode which is found in sensible thing, in which the form is other than what has the form, because of the composition of form and of matter. But form in these things is found, indeed, to be simple, but imperfect, since not subsisting: but what has the form is found, indeed, to be subsisting, but not simple, on the contrary, having ‘compaction’/‘condensation’ [requiring unification/individuation]. For which reason, whatever our intellect signifies as subsisting, it signifies in ‘compaction’; but what it signifies as simple, it signifies not as what is, but as by which is. And thus in every name said by us, as regards the mode of signifying, imperfection is found, which does not belong to God, even though the thing signified in some eminent way belongs to God: as is obvious in the name of goodness and of good; for goodness signifies as not subsisting, but good as ‘compacted.’ And in this regard, no name is suitably applied to God, but only in regard to that for the signifying of which the name is imposed. Therefore, as Dionysius teaches, names of this kind can be both affirmed of God and negated: affirmed, that is, because of the intelligible content (ratio) of the name; but negated because of the mode of signifying.]

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  37. David M:

    guller, here's a passage you might be interested in where Aquinas uses both of your pet terms: modus significandi (which clearly means nothing like 'sense' in Frege's sense (Frege's Sinn)) and res significata (if you have others in mind, please let me know - I'll chase this white whale to the death!):

    First, I admire your tenacity. Hopefully, we can catch Moby Dick without mutually perishing in the process. :)

    Second, I think it’s pretty clear by now that Aquinas uses many of his terms loosely and inconsistently, and so it is a waste of time to nail down the meaning of his terms. It may be more important for you and I to agree upon our terms instead.

    Third, your quotation was most helpful. I’ve argued on previous threads that the modus significandi is how the res significata appears or manifests itself to the human intellect, which is necessarily constrained by the limitations of the intellect itself. This seems confirmed by the quotation, which says that “as regards the mode of signifying, every name is with defect. For by a name we express the thing in the way in which by the intellect we conceive it”. In other words, the “defect” associated with any name we use to signify the divine is directly attributed to the limitations in how the human intellect operates. To me, that is what the sense of a term is, i.e. how a referent presents itself to the human mind as a linguistic and cognitive mental construct. That is how a thing is signified by the human mind, after all.

    In some ways, this is analogous to the perspective that we have upon any material object. Our perspective is necessarily limited, because it only takes in part of the material object, and thus our perception is never comprehensive and complete, but rather only partial and limited. In addition, the part that we perceive will be distorted to some extent by a variety of factors. And yet, despite these limitations, our perspective of the material object is of the material object. Similarly, the res significata can be perceived by the intellect in a variety of ways by virtue of different cognitive and semantic constructs of the mind, and those constructs themselves would be the modus significandi.

    Any thoughts?

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  38. >I always care about other people's understandings, including those of rude and obnoxious individuals, such as yourself.

    No you don't care at all & that is itself rude and obnoxious & it provokes anger in others.

    >I don't always agree with them, but that's a whole other issue.

    I don't give a rat's arse what you personally believe about existence. But you telling me what I believe & what my Church teaches is unconscionable.

    >:And I certainly will admit to being wrong, which I have been on a number of topics here, when I am demonstrated to be wrong.

    No you don't. You just repeat the same nonsense. In one ear and out the other.

    >I'm the first to admit that I do not have the truth, and am only a humble seeker.

    What does truth have to do with anything? A rational Atheist would learn the doctrine of the Trinity as Christians believe it instead of making up his own doctrine because he can't admit the doctrine itself contains absolutely no logical contradictions.

    You have argued with Scott, David, Glenn, myself by making up your own doctrine.

    Based on your past behavior I have every reason to think you are making up your own doctrine of analogy.

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  39. Thanks a lot on the clarifications regarding abstract objects. It really helped put things in perspective.

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  40. Ben:

    I didn’t make up the doctrine of the Trinity.

    The Father is really distinct from the Son. The Father is the divine essence, and the Son is the divine essence, and thus the Father and the Son share one and the same divine essence in common. The divine essence cannot account for the real distinction between the Father and the Son, because real distinction can never be accounted for on the basis of what two distinct beings have in common. Therefore, the principle of distinction between the Father and the Son cannot be identical to the divine essence.

    The divine essence is Being itself, and anything that is not Being itself is a creature. Therefore, anything that is not the divine essence is a creature. Since the divine essence cannot be really identical to the principle of distinction between the Father and the Son, it follows that the principle of distinction between the Father and the Son is a creature.

    But this is absurd, and for a number of reasons that I don’t need to go over, because they’re pretty obvious. So, you have to reject either the real distinction of the divine persons, the commonality of the divine essence in the divine persons, that what they share in common cannot be identical to what they do not share in common, or that the divine essence is Being itself. Unfortunately, rejecting any one of these claims is devastating to Trinitarian theology.

    Your solution is to basically change the subject, and say that when Aquinas says that the divine persons share the same divine essence in common, what he is really saying is that each divine persons is fully the one true God. He means absolutely nothing else. But this ignores the point that what makes each divine person fully the one true God is precisely their connection to the divine essence. And that is because the divine essence is Being itself, and is the culmination in the chain of reasoning from the effects of creation to a metaphysically simple cause, which is one. Otherwise, what do you even mean when you say that each divine person is fully the one true God?

    Actually, don’t answer that, because I really don’t care anymore. You are an absolutely despicable human being who even decent Christians on this website are repulsed by. People may get upset at me in terms of how stubborn and thickheaded I can be, but at least I treat people with respect, including those who abuse me. But that stops with you, because as far as I’m concerned, you are absolute filth. Oh, and I’m sorry that I disappointed you in your creepy homoerotic attraction that you once had for me, but it’s probably a good thing that ended, because I was never going to fulfill whatever weird fantasies you had about us in your twisted imagination.

    And with that, we are done.

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  41. @David M:

    "The point is that what 'red' refers to (and thus its 'referent') in the proposition "The apple is red" is the redness of the [apple]."

    That's true, and I certainly agree that the redness of the apple is numerically (though not formally) distinct from the redness of the car.

    However, I think the more fundamental point here is one that dguller was overlooking in his reply to you. The issue under discussion is modes of predication, and what raises the issue is that we appear to predicate the same term of more than one thing. Put that way, I think, it's perfectly obvious that the problem of univocity et cetera arises only because more than one "referent" is involved. If a term could be predicated of only one thing, no question as to its univocity would ever arise.

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  42. For crying out loud, guys, knock it off with the juvenile insults.

    (Sheesh, I thought I had finally found a place on the Internet that was populated by grown ups. How naive of me.)

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  43. Mr. Green: "For crying out loud, guys, knock it off with the juvenile insults."

    I must concur. I'm as prone to anger as anyone, but in this medium we have the luxury to reflect before responding. Please consider not only what what you feel and think but what you represent.

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  44. I'm the Second Anonymous on this thread, and I say:
    dguller won this argument hands down.

    Face it, first Anonymous.

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  45. dguller what is the point of you?

    >I didn’t make up the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Learn to read English. I accused you of making up your own doctrine of the Trinity as opposed to addressing the actual doctrine taught by the Church.

    >The Father is really distinct from the Son.

    By a mysterious real distinction of opposition. Not a real physical or metaphysical one. This is like the 10th time you brought up this fallacy of equivocation. Like I said in one ear and out the other. Thus I have no reason to believe you are here to discuss anything in good faith or learn anything.

    >The Father is the divine essence, and the Son is the divine essence, and thus the Father and the Son share one and the same divine essence in common.

    Yes thus they are both the One God and or the One Supreme Being.

    >The divine essence cannot account for the real distinction between the Father and the Son, because real distinction can never be accounted for on the basis of what two distinct beings have in common.

    There you go again making up your own doctrine that is not the Trinity. Since when are the Father and Son two distinct beings?

    I've prayed the Creed all my life at Mass QUOTE "[the Son]One in Being with the Father". Of course if the Trinity taught God was Three Beings in One Being that would be a logical contradiction. But the doctrine doesn't teach that. The real distinction is dogmatically an impenetrable mystery & not any type of real physical or metaphysical distinction. I've only tried to explain this 1000 times & you just ignore me & make up your own doctrine & then you seem surprised I feel deeply insulted and get upset?

    >Therefore, the principle of distinction between the Father and the Son cannot be identical to the divine essence.

    No it means the nature of the real distinction between divine persons is not any real physical or metaphysical distinction in the essence. Thus the Father & Son are both physically and metaphysically identical to the essence & thus both equally God.

    Their distinction is not one of essence I've only agreed with that for 2000 posts & you seem to think I should find it to be remarkable?

    >The divine essence is Being itself, and anything that is not Being itself is a creature.

    Since both the Father and Son are the Divine Essence they are Being Itself. They are distinct from each other as divine persons by a mysterious relation of opposition not physically or metaphysically distinct. Creatures have nothing to do with it.

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  46. >Since the divine essence cannot be really identical to the principle of distinction between the Father and the Son,

    This doesn't even make any sense? Is this English? I thought my grammar sucked? The Father is really distinct from the Son by a mysterious real distinction of opposition not by any physical or metaphysical distinction so they are both identical to the divine essence but distinct one to another as persons.

    >But this is absurd, and for a number of reasons that I don’t need to go over, because they’re pretty obvious. So, you have to reject either the real distinction of the divine persons, the commonality of the divine essence in the divine persons, that what they share in common cannot be identical to what they do not share in common, or that the divine essence is Being itself. Unfortunately, rejecting any one of these claims is devastating to Trinitarian theology.

    No what you do is make up a doctrine of divine simplicity that says in God there are no real distinctions of any kind(including mysterious ones) when the doctrine merely excludes real physical and real metaphysical ones.

    >Your solution is to basically change the subject, and say that when Aquinas says that the divine persons share the same divine essence in common, what he is really saying is that each divine persons is fully the one true God.

    It's not a "solution" it's the doctrine. Ask anyone here who is a Trinitarian. Even Scott who is technically not a Christian understands this. You insist on making up your own doctrine that is not the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Aquinas didn't believe each divine person is fully the one true God? Is this guy for real?

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  47. >He means absolutely nothing else. But this ignores the point that what makes each divine person fully the one true God is precisely their connection to the divine essence. And that is because the divine essence is Being itself, and is the culmination in the chain of reasoning from the effects of creation to a metaphysically simple cause, which is one. Otherwise, what do you even mean when you say that each divine person is fully the one true God?

    What does any of this have to do with your faulty Straw Man charge the doctrine of the Trinity is logically contradictory?

    Nothing.

    >Actually, don’t answer that, because I really don’t care anymore.

    You never cared in the first place. You let your hand slip by claiming the Father and Son where distinct beings. That is heresy not the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox teaching on the Trinity.

    >You are an absolutely despicable human being who even decent Christians on this website are repulsed by.

    But not one of them thinks you have the slightest idea what the actual doctrine doctrine of the Trinity happens to be. Your the one who first called me irrational for believing in the Trinity. I was insulted because you attributed to me doctrinal beliefs I don't in fact hold. If you called my mother a harlot I would be less offended then to have you devolve right in front of me into a common Gnu.

    >People may get upset at me in terms of how stubborn and thickheaded I can be, but at least I treat people with respect, including those who abuse me. But that stops with you, because as far as I’m concerned, you are absolute filth.

    You did this before remember? You refused to believe the incarnation wasn't a changing of the divine nature into a human one no matter what I said to you. You apologized for that & I believed you then you went back and did it again with the Trinity. Made up your own nonsense & treated it like the doctrine.

    > Oh, and I’m sorry that I disappointed you in your creepy homoerotic attraction that you once had for me, but it’s probably a good thing that ended, because I was never going to fulfill whatever weird fantasies you had about us in your twisted imagination.

    Well somebody is insecure about their masculinity! Don't flatter yourself XMuslim boy. I am happily married, father of three children and as my wife will tell you I am all man.

    Besides as I recall your the one here who tried to defend the morality of homosexual relations(& pissed off Crude in the process).

    I have never done that. At best I am polite and friendly toward gay people like the ex-Atheist Bisexual dude who once posted here. But friendly doesn't mean I want a date. I learned that when I was young and single chasing girls. Who knew insecure "straight" dudes could misinterpret that as signals? Is there something you want to tell us dguller?

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  48. Mr. Green and Scott.

    It is really quite simple. Either somebody wants to have a discussion in good faith and learn something.

    Or they want to "win" an argument at all costs.

    If the later then what is the point of discussing anything with them?

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  49. David M:

    I looked up Sinn/Bedeutung in Simon Blackburn's Dictionary of Philosophy (Oxford: 1996), and it said:

    "Two expressions might have the same reference, but present it in different ways, and this mode of presentation is the sense of the expression" (p. 352).

    I may be wrong, but the "mode of presentation" of the reference looks suspiciously like the mode of signification of the thing signified. Maybe the modus significandi is more like the sense and the res significant is more like the referent than you think?

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  50. First, my two cents on Ben and guller and Trinity and insults: When I tell guller he is being a twit, I am trying to point out the fatuousness of his dialectic on a certain point. With Ben, it's clearly just a personal attack. I don't feel the love coming from Ben (homoerotic or otherwise), whereas, guller, I hope you know that my 'invective' is indeed motivated by frustration, but it's never (I hope) without love, so I'm sorry if that doesn't always come through. As for the Trinity, we really don't need that digression at this point, do we?

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  51. guller:
    "I think what Aquinas means by “different things” here is different subjects that a predicate is applied of."

    Yes, you are right about this. Perhaps I shouldn't have used that citation. Perhaps it was irrelevant. And yet, as Scott pointed out… When you use the term ‘referent,‘ with Fregean connotations, you are referring to a singular subject which can be denoted (referred to) by one or more expressions. In “On Sense and Reference” Frege doesn’t present (so far as I can see) any examples that really fit our case, but I think that that should tell you that ‘sense and reference’ are irrelevant to understanding the problem of analogy. (Hesperus and Phosphorus have different senses, but the same referent. But there is no hint of the problem of univocal vs. equivocal vs. analogical predication here, is there?)

    "First, the “is” is not the “is” of identity, but the “is” of predication. I thought you were big on paying attention to the logical grammar?" -- YES. That's absolutely essential. But there's no use 'paying attention' if you don't understand it in the first place...

    "Second, the referent of “red” is the color red, particularly as it is instantiated in a concrete subject. In other words, we are referring to the form of redness as individuated in a concrete being." -- But guller, you still have the same problem: "the color red" is not identical to "red as it is instantiated in a concrete subject." Therefore the 'red' in "the apple is red" does not refer to the color red. You can say it connotes the color red (a universal), but what it denotes (refers to) is the redness of the apple (a particular).

    "Third, footnote 26 is on page 99, and not page 100," - glad you found it anyway - "and it is a long Latin quotation from De Ente et Essentia that is supposed to support the claim that “the form or essence [res significata] is predicated of the individual only as concretely signified, never as abstractly signified” (Ibid., p. 98). But that only means that the form F is predicated of an individual as instantiated in that individual. In other words, if X is the individual, then predicated F of X means F-in-X." -- Huh? I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here.

    Here’s what I think you need to understand: Signifying abstractly or signifying concretely are the two specific modi significandi (whether we're talking about Thomas' text or McInerny's). In other words, modus significandi does not mean 'sense' (in any kind of Fregean sense; read “On Sense and Reference” if you need to be convinced of this).

    "However, I think it’s pretty clear that talking about F-in-X necessarily involves talking about F itself."

    That’s just wrong. If I say "I have a red car," I'm not talking about the color red itself, any more than if I say "I have a dirty car," I'm talking about dirtiness itself. I'm just not. You might start to think about the color red itself when I mention the redness of my car, but so what? You might just as well start to think about the fact that your car is white and that you really wish that you had a black car, and then start thinking about the color black itself, or perhaps about the last funeral you went to. Or you might start thinking, “I guess Dave likes bright colors... I wonder if he likes rainbows?” You might start thinking about pretty well anything, but that is irrelevant to the question of what I am talking about - and specifically what I am referring to - when I say “I have a red car” (or just "the car is red").

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  52. "First, I admire your tenacity. Hopefully, we can catch Moby Dick without mutually perishing in the process. :)"

    If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. ;)

    "Second, I think it’s pretty clear by now that Aquinas uses many of his terms loosely and inconsistently, and so it is a waste of time to nail down the meaning of his terms."

    YAK-K! NO, dude, that is completely unacceptable. I can't believe you'd say this...

    "It may be more important for you and I to agree upon our terms instead."

    NOT if we're trying to understand Thomas' doctrine of analogy, mate!

    "Third, your quotation was most helpful. I’ve argued on previous threads that the modus significandi is how the res significata appears or manifests itself to the human intellect, which is necessarily constrained by the limitations of the intellect itself."

    But this is just you being careless with your reading again. In the text cited Aquinas is much more specific than that in regard to the meaning of modus significandi. You're just reading what you want to read, and ignoring the text.

    "In some ways, this is analogous to the perspective that we have upon any material object. Our perspective is necessarily limited, because it only takes in part of the material object, and thus our perception is never comprehensive and complete, but rather only partial and limited. In addition, the part that we perceive will be distorted to some extent by a variety of factors. And yet, despite these limitations, our perspective of the material object is of the material object. Similarly, the res significata can be perceived by the intellect in a variety of ways by virtue of different cognitive and semantic constructs of the mind, and those constructs themselves would be the modus significandi."

    Some of this might well be true, but when you come to interpreting precise Latin terms, you have to read the text - don't make your own shit up!

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  53. BTW, according to Frege, if the car is red, the referent of "the car is red" is the True; if the car is not red, the referent of "the car is red" is the False.

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  54. me: Did you love noticing how your account differs from Aquinas' as much as you expected you would?

    guller: It didn’t differ at all, as far as I can see.

    Damn! Here it is again:

    Aquinas:
    "… it must be noted that a term is predicated of different things in various senses. Sometimes it is predicated of them according to a meaning which is entirely the same, and then it is said to be predicated of them univocally, as animal is predicated of a horse and of an ox. Sometimes it is predicated of them according to meanings which are entirely different, and then it is said to be predicated of them equivocally, as dog is predicated of a star and of an animal. And sometimes it is predicated of them according to meanings which are partly different and partly not (different inasmuch as they imply different relationships, and the same inasmuch as these different relationships are referred to one and the same thing), and then it is said “to be predicated analogously,” i.e., proportionally, according as each one by its own relationship is referred to that one same thing." (In Meta 4.1.535)

    GULLER (apparently doing his level best to explain Aquinas' account of equivocation):
    "“saying that P in (1) and (2) has different senses and referents […] is precisely what Aquinas means by 'pure equivocation'"

    So I guess I will have to explain this. The common 'genus' here is predication. The three 'species' of predication must be distinguished by specific differences. Setting aside your thoroughly confused invocation of the Fregean vocabulary of sense and reference, the problem with your account of equivocation is that it fails to specify the kind of 'difference' - which is what constitutes the specific difference of the relevant species of predication, and so failing to do this, you fail to give an accurate account of the different species of predication.

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  55. David M:

    guller, I hope you know that my 'invective' is indeed motivated by frustration, but it's never (I hope) without love, so I'm sorry if that doesn't always come through.

    My respect and admiration for yourself and your formidable knowledge base remains unchanged.

    As for the Trinity, we really don't need that digression at this point, do we?

    No, we do not.

    When you use the term ‘referent,‘ with Fregean connotations, you are referring to a singular subject which can be denoted (referred to) by one or more expressions.

    I think that Brandon nicely resolved this by pointing out that there are different kinds of referents that are being used in this discussion. As long as we are clear about which kind of referent we are referring to, there will likely be less confusion.

    In “On Sense and Reference” Frege doesn’t present (so far as I can see) any examples that really fit our case, but I think that that should tell you that ‘sense and reference’ are irrelevant to understanding the problem of analogy.

    I disagree, and so do the scholars that I’ve quoted. If sense is the mode of signification – and given that Frege himself described the sense as the “mode of presentation” of the referent – and the referent is the thing signified, then certainly sense and referent are relevant to this discussion, even if there are subtle differences in the Fregean use of these terms. All that matters is that any account of analogy would require the inclusion of two principles of signification, as Michael mentioned: (1) the thing signified, and (2) how the thing signified is presented to a mind. It does not matter what you want to call (1) and (2) as long as they are both present in your account of analogy. Certainly, they are both present in Aquinas’ account of analogy.

    (Hesperus and Phosphorus have different senses, but the same referent. But there is no hint of the problem of univocal vs. equivocal vs. analogical predication here, is there?)

    But that is because “Hesperus” and “Phosphorus” are not identical terms. It is only when identical terms are predicated of different subjects that issues of univocity, equivocation and analogy are applicable, and Aquinas certainly makes use of the loose equivalent of sense and referent when he explains his account.

    But guller, you still have the same problem: "the color red" is not identical to "red as it is instantiated in a concrete subject." Therefore the 'red' in "the apple is red" does not refer to the color red. You can say it connotes the color red (a universal), but what it denotes (refers to) is the redness of the apple (a particular).

    You know what, upon further reflection, I agree with you. But that does not change the overall thrust of Aquinas’ account of analogy that Michael, Josh and myself have been explicating. Take the following:

    (1) The apple is red
    (2) The car is red

    Here, you have the same term, “red”, being predicated of two different subjects, but the sense of “red” (1) has “the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject”, and has the referent of the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject. So, you have the same term, “red”, with the same sense and referent, which is precisely why it is univocal.

    Now, take the following:

    (3) The leaf is green
    (4) The novice is green

    Here, you have the same term, “green”, being predicated of two different subjects, but the sense of “green” in (3) is “the color green as instantiated in a concrete subject” and the referent of “green” in (3) is the color green as instantiated in a concrete subject, whereas the sense of “green” in (4) is “the lack of experience in a particular skill as instantiated in a concrete subject” and the referent of “green” in (4) is the lack of experience in a particular skill as instantiated in a concrete subject. So, you have the same term, “green”, with different senses and different referents, which is precisely why it is equivocal.

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  56. Now, take the following:

    (5) God is wise
    (6) Socrates is wise

    According to Aquinas, the sense of “wise” in (5) is different from the sense of “wise” in (6), but they both share the same referent. That is precisely how he distinguishes analogical predication from univocal and equivocal predication. Trust me. That is what McInerny means when he says that analogical predication involves the same term, different modi significandi, but the same res significata. I know that this does not line up 100% with Fregean sense and reference, but it does not matter. What is meant is that two identical terms both refer to the same thing, but that thing has different modes of signification (or presentation) to the human mind. I can provide a legion of Aquinas quotes that supports this interpretation, as well as multiple quotes by Thomist scholars.

    Now, you may think that this account is bogus and ridiculous, and I agree that it has its problems. We can discuss these problems in a fruitful fashion, but you must recognize that we are discussing Aquinas’ position, and not some dumbass combox moron.

    So I guess I will have to explain this. The common 'genus' here is predication. The three 'species' of predication must be distinguished by specific differences. Setting aside your thoroughly confused invocation of the Fregean vocabulary of sense and reference, the problem with your account of equivocation is that it fails to specify the kind of 'difference' - which is what constitutes the specific difference of the relevant species of predication, and so failing to do this, you fail to give an accurate account of the different species of predication.

    Untrue. I have specified the differences:

    (7) Univocal predication = same term, same modus, same res
    (8) Equivocal predication = same term, different modus, different res
    (9) Analogical predication = same term, different modus, same res

    This is precisely the account that Michael and Josh have endorsed, and it is also precisely the account that Aquinas and his commentators have endorsed.

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  57. Sorry, if you could change:

    “Here, you have the same term, “red”, being predicated of two different subjects, but the sense of “red” (1) has “the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject”, and has the referent of the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject. So, you have the same term, “red”, with the same sense and referent, which is precisely why it is univocal.”

    To:

    “Here, you have the same term, “red”, being predicated of two different subjects, but the sense of “red” in (1) is “the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject”, which has the referent of the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject, and the sense of “red” in (2) is “the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject”, which has the referent of the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject. So, you have the same term, “red”, with the same sense and referent, which is precisely why it is univocal.”

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  58. "Here, you have the same term, “red”, being predicated of two different subjects, but the sense of “red” in (1) is “the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject”, which has the referent of the color red as instantiated in a [particular] concrete subject, and the sense of “red” in (2) is “the color red as instantiated in a concrete subject”, which has the referent of the color red as instantiated in a different particular concrete subject. So, you have the same term, “red”, with the same sense and [NOT the same] referent, which is precisely why it is univocal."

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  59. sorry, missed the square brackets on the second correction I made to guller's statement

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  60. "Aquinas certainly makes use of the loose equivalent of sense and referent when he explains his account."

    WHERE?? Give me one passage where he does this that we can carefully read and analyze together. One passage!

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  61. (I've already given you a passage which shows that your claim about Aquinas is clearly muddled and you respond by claiming that Aquinas is inconsistent and ignoring the fact that your reading of the actual text is garbage. *shrug*)

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  62. Frege, from "On Sense and Reference":

    "If the sign 'a' is distinguished from the sign 'b' only as object (here, by means of its shape), not as sign (i.e. not by the manner in which it designates something), the cognitive value of a = a becomes essentially equal to that of a = b, provided a = b is true. A difference can arise only if the difference between the signs corresponds to a difference in the mode of presentation of that which is designated. Let a, b, c be the lines connecting the vertices of a triangle with the midpoints of the opposite sides. The point of intersection of a and b is then the same as the point of intersection of b and c. So we have different designations for the same point, and these names ('point of intersection of a and b', 'point of intersection of b and c') likewise indicate the mode of presentation; and hence the statement contains actual knowledge."

    Note that the two different Fregean senses ('point of intersection of a and b' and 'point of intersection of b and c') clearly have one identical Thomistic modus significandi (a concrete one). Therefore a Fregean sense is not the loose equivalent of a Thomistic modus significandi. QED

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  63. David M:

    In that example, if one were predicating 'point' of the two 'modes,' you would have a case of univocal predication, precisely because the two modes are of the same type of instantiation. Dguller hasn't been contradicting this, and it's not important in this discussion that there be a strict adherence to Fregean notions or Aquinas' notions of semantics etc., provided that the concepts behind the concepts used are understood as used. We've all got to get past the terminologies to a shared understanding.

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  64. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  65. " if one were predicating 'point' of the two 'modes,' you would have a case of univocal predication"

    But Josh, you can't predicate 'point' of the two 'modes' - neither of the modes is a point; that is sheer nonsense!

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  66. "We've all got to get past the terminologies to a shared understanding."

    You can't have an intelligent discussion by bypassing terminology, can you?!

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  67. David M:

    Pardon me, I should have said "predicate 'point' of the two points of intersection"

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  68. You can't have an intelligent discussion by bypassing terminology, can you?!

    Nor can you have one if it's all you discuss--the point is getting to a shared understanding of concepts, whatever terms are adopted.

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  69. @Mr. Green:

    "Sheesh, I thought I had finally found a place on the Internet that was populated by grown ups. How naive of me."

    I don't wanna grow up.

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  70. David M:

    Let’s just get back to the basics. Aquinas makes a distinction between the thing signified (i.e. res significata) and the mode of signification of the thing signified (i.e. modus significandi).

    Agreed?

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  71. "if one were predicating 'point' of the two points of intersection, you would have a case of univocal predication, precisely because the two modes [points?] are of the same type of instantiation[?]."

    Josh, 'type of instantiation' is a new terminological element that you've introduced, which you perhaps need to clarify, but other than that, yes, this is obviously univocal predication. But what does that have to do with what Frege is trying to explain in the given passage or, in general, with Frege's distinction between sense and reference? (Nothing.) How does pointing this out clarify anything that guller has said? (It doesn't.)

    "Nor can you have one if it's all you discuss" -- why do you think that?

    "--the point is getting to a shared understanding of concepts, whatever terms are adopted." -- But that is precisely what a discussion of terminology is for: getting to a shared understanding of concepts! If you and guller seriously want to insist that you can just dance past this issue, we'll never get anywhere (and so perhaps we will never get anywhere).

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  72. Josh:

    My account above necessarily refers to predication, Dguller's refers to the abstracted senses. In my account, senses or modes would be different in equivocal and analogical predication. For me, what the senses have in common in analogical predication, is merely their shared reference to the R, and nothing more. The challenge to Dguller is to show a similarity relationship between modi significandi, or senses, that doesn't reify an abstraction, i.e., making the senses into concrete terms with their own referents apart from the original subjects of the predication. I don't think this possible. Now fight it out, and hopefully cleanly.

    First, the different S’s in analogical predication must have more in common than the mere fact that they share the same R. Take any pair of senses, and you will find a legion of commonalities between them, over and above their shared R. For example, take the S of “Morning Star” and the S of “Evening Star”. Yes, they share the same R as the planet Venus, but they also share that they both involve the concepts of planets, orbits around the earth, appearance to terrestrial beings, being part of the solar system, and so on. In other words, the S’s themselves are not monolithic and simple entities, but rather are quite complex and differentiated.

    Second, I don’t think that I’m reifying an abstraction. To reify an abstraction would be to treat it as a concrete reality itself. I am not doing that at all, as far as I can tell. I am certainly talking about the senses themselves, but that is not the same as treating them as if they were a concrete reality.

    Third, yes, I do believe that we can talk about what analogical terms have in common, and I think that the commonalities between them are present in the terms, the senses, and the referents involved in the semantic triangle. The terms have something in common, i.e. the same term. The referents have something in common, i.e. the same referent. The senses have something in common, i.e. the identical concepts that are contained within the senses. I think that when we talk about the common concepts or ideas contained within the senses, then we can label those with identical names, and those common concepts or ideas must also refer to the same things in reality, which I think would meet Aquinas’ definition of univocal predication.

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  73. Dguller:

    Yes, they share the same R as the planet Venus, but they also share that they both involve the concepts of planets, orbits around the earth, appearance to terrestrial beings, being part of the solar system, and so on. In other words, the S’s themselves are not monolithic and simple entities, but rather are quite complex and differentiated.

    Compare this to your above citation of McInerney: “Analogous names thus have the same res significata and diverse modi significandi. Each ratio involves both the res significata and a way of signifying it. The ratio propria is not the res significata, but the primary and controlling way of signifying the res significata […] We see now the precise meaning of saying that the many rationes of the analogous name are partly the same and partly different. They are the same as to the res significata; they differ as to the modi significandi” (Aquinas and Analogy, pp. 99-100).

    It doesn't matter that there are diverse rationes or concrete meanings that involve many different Ss to the single Rs. That's understood. What matters is that in each predication there is a fixed focus on one for each, to the R. You can't say, let's focus on one predication of a ratio and then shift to another without losing what you're intending to analyze; that's been my point all along.

    And when I say you're reifying an abstraction, I simply mean that you're taking the senses of a given predication, and concretizing them by considering them as concrete terms in themselves, with reference to themselves. I'm not intending to say you're making it an ontological reality, but merely taking a mode/sense/whatever and making it a ratio/term in order to establish a similarity relationship.

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  74. The perennial example is intellectual sight vs. perceptual sight

    Subject 1: Eye
    Subject 2: Intellect

    Term predicated of them: See/Sight
    Proposition/predication: The intellect sees in a similar way to the eye

    R/res significata/commonality: act of sight/understanding
    S/modus significandi/difference: way of taking it in

    cf. Henry Koren, An Introduction to the Science of Metaphysics:

    "The act of sense perception is absolutely different from that of intellectual perception; nevertheless there is a certain relative unity because as the eye is related to sense perception, so the intellect is related to intellectual perception...In this way, one concept can be predicated of things which are absolutely different insofar as they are relatively the same."

    In the predication of the act, a comparison of senses reveals that one is the negation of the other, disclosing their absolute difference, i.e., immaterial vs. material 'sight/understanding'

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  75. "Let’s just get back to the basics. Aquinas makes a distinction between the thing signified (i.e. res significata) and the mode of signification of the thing signified (i.e. modus significandi).

    Agreed?"

    Certainly Aquinas doesn't think that those two notions are identical, so yes, he 'makes a distinction' between those two expressions. If you read SCG I.30 (and if you have other texts where he mentions both expressions, please direct me to them) the distinction he directly makes is between illud ad quod significandum nomen fuit impositum and modus significandi (which can be translated as 'that for the signifying of which the name was imposed' and 'mode of signifying'). And I think that and are equivalent in that passage.

    What follows?

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  76. that was supposed to be:
    "And I think that 'illud ad quod significandum nomen fuit impositum' and 'res significata' are equivalent in that passage."

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  77. Josh:

    It doesn't matter that there are diverse rationes or concrete meanings that involve many different Ss to the single Rs. That's understood. What matters is that in each predication there is a fixed focus on one for each, to the R. You can't say, let's focus on one predication of a ratio and then shift to another without losing what you're intending to analyze; that's been my point all along.

    But the problem is that Aquinas does not say that one has analogical predication at one level of semantic analysis, and univocal predication at another level of analysis. He says that one never has univocal predication, ever. In other words, even if one shifts one’s focus upon a different aspect of the semantic triangle, it is metaphysically and semantically impossible that it could ever be reduced to univocal predication. I agree that shifting focus changes the dynamic of meaning involved, but I think that it ultimately can reduce to univocal predication, which is precisely where the disagreement lies.

    And when I say you're reifying an abstraction, I simply mean that you're taking the senses of a given predication, and concretizing them by considering them as concrete terms in themselves, with reference to themselves. I'm not intending to say you're making it an ontological reality, but merely taking a mode/sense/whatever and making it a ratio/term in order to establish a similarity relationship.

    But that means that you are doing the same thing. After all, when you say that the senses are the same, or different, you are “considering them as concrete terms in themselves, with reference to themselves”. Surely, this is not an illicit or fallacious move to make, if you make it yourself.

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  78. He says that one never has univocal predication, ever.

    You mean between God and created being, yes?

    After all, when you say that the senses are the same, or different, you are “considering them as concrete terms in themselves, with reference to themselves”.

    The reason I can't be said to be doing it as well is because I am only considering the ratios involved as predicated; i.e., S1 of R in comparison to S2 of R. I'm not abstracting the essential link there, in order to say S1 as it refers to some other R that it has in common with S2, in order to say they're the same in some way. This is like what you did above when you said (somewhere) "both senses are beings" or somesuch. That isn't the point, because then you've made the predication not the original predication, but are predicating Being(R) of the two senses, instead of the R that showed them to be different in the first place.

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  79. David M:

    Certainly Aquinas doesn't think that those two notions are identical, so yes, he 'makes a distinction' between those two expressions.

    Great. So, the modus significandi and the res significata are different.

    If you read SCG I.30 (and if you have other texts where he mentions both expressions, please direct me to them) the distinction he directly makes is between illud ad quod significandum nomen fuit impositum and modus significandi (which can be translated as 'that for the signifying of which the name was imposed' and 'mode of signifying'). And I think that and are equivalent in that passage.

    I think that the res significata is the thing signified, and the modus significandi is the way that the res significata presents itself to the human mind, which is necessarily as a cognitive and linguistic mental construct appropriate to the human mind. After all, Aquinas agrees that “whatever is received into something is received according to the condition of the recipient” (ST 1.75.5).

    Agreed?

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  80. guller:

    "I think that the res significata is the thing signified, and the modus significandi is the way that the res significata presents itself to the human mind, which is necessarily as a cognitive and linguistic mental construct appropriate to the human mind. After all, Aquinas agrees that “whatever is received into something is received according to the condition of the recipient” (ST 1.75.5). -- Agreed?"

    The res significata is indeed the thing/reality signified. But I don't think the modus significandi is the way that the res significata presents itself to the human mind - it is the way in which a particular act of (human) predication presents the res significata: either as simple but non-subsistent, or as subsistent but 'compacted' (in concretione). Anyway, this is what SCG I.30 tells us.

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  81. Dguller's last comment prompted me to think about how H. Koren puts univocal predication's concepts: "In univocal predication not only the spoken or the written term remains the same, but the very concept of which this term is a symbol remains exactly the same. The reason is that such a concept abstracts perfectly from the differences of its inferiors; consequently, it is defined in an absolute way, i.e., independently from any relation to its inferiors." [emphasis added]

    So if one had to find a univocal core at the root of everything in order for there to be analogy (btw. God and created being), it would look something like "these subjects are in the sense that they are." This abstracts perfectly from the differences, and it's also practically useless in terms of conveying meaningful information, wouldn't you agree?

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  82. David M:

    The res significata is indeed the thing/reality signified. But I don't think the modus significandi is the way that the res significata presents itself to the human mind - it is the way in which a particular act of (human) predication presents the res significata: either as simple but non-subsistent, or as subsistent but 'compacted' (in concretione). Anyway, this is what SCG I.30 tells us.

    Right. The modus is how the res appears to the human mind, which is necessarily as a cognitive and linguistic mental construct of some kind that refers to the res. That construct is either simple but non-subsistent, or subsistent but composite, because that is the only way that anything can appear to the human mind, according to its intrinsic structure and operations.

    We good?

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  83. Josh:

    You mean between God and created being, yes?

    Yes.

    The reason I can't be said to be doing it as well is because I am only considering the ratios involved as predicated; i.e., S1 of R in comparison to S2 of R. I'm not abstracting the essential link there, in order to say S1 as it refers to some other R that it has in common with S2, in order to say they're the same in some way. This is like what you did above when you said (somewhere) "both senses are beings" or somesuch. That isn't the point, because then you've made the predication not the original predication, but are predicating Being(R) of the two senses, instead of the R that showed them to be different in the first place.

    But the sameness relation obtains between S1 and S2. When you say that S1 is the same as S2, and R1 is the same as R2, you are mentally abstracting the S’s apart from the R’s, even though in the semantic triangle, they exist together. It is like when I say that dguller and Josh have the same human nature in the sense of formal identity, I abstract the form of human nature away from our particularizing features, and that is what I am talking about. The reality is that the form necessarily coexists with matter, but in our intellect, we can separate and divide things that exist as a unity in reality. I don’t see why we cannot do the same about linguistic structures. In other words, I don’t see why you can’t focus your mind upon S1 and S2 to compare them, while bracketing or removing everything else from the equation.

    So if one had to find a univocal core at the root of everything in order for there to be analogy (btw. God and created being), it would look something like "these subjects are in the sense that they are." This abstracts perfectly from the differences, and it's also practically useless in terms of conveying meaningful information, wouldn't you agree?

    I agree that it is not particularly useful, but that is irrelevant. All that matters is that it is meaningful and true. And I think that there must be some core commonality between God and creation of being that they share in order for there to be any likeness between creation and God. If expressing that core commonality turns out to be banal and tautological, then so be it.

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  84. Josh:

    Here's another way to look at it.

    Say that God and creation have X in common, but X exists in different modes of being in each. In God, X exists as unparticipated, infinite and perfect, and in creation, X exists as participated, finite and imperfect. Even if it is difficult to express, I don’t see why we can’t say that X itself is present in both God and creation, albeit in different modes of being, which is analogous to saying that the form of humanity is present in both dguller and Josh, albeit in different modes of being.

    Again, this all hinges upon the idea that creation is like God in some way, which is an essential component of Aquinas’ metaphysics of Neoplatonic participatory efficient causality. An effect is like its cause, after all, which means that the effect and cause must share something in common. Otherwise, how can they be said to be like each other? And if we can say that they share something in common, then we must be able to talk about this “something in common”, even if it is extremely difficult. It would be like all God talk, then, in which every affirmation must be immediately denied as inadequate on the basis of God’s transcendence and infinitude into a higher affirmation, which itself must be negated, and so on, ad infinitum, as all mystical theologians agree. Now, that kind of talk is also extremely difficult, to an infinite extent, actually, and yet it is an acceptable account of how we talk about God. Similarly, just because my account is also extremely difficult does not automatically preclude its truth. We are talking about talking about God, after all. It is supposed to be difficult!

    Any thoughts?

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  85. Even if it is difficult to express, I don’t see why we can’t say that X itself is present in both God and creation, albeit in different modes of being, which is analogous to saying that the form of humanity is present in both dguller and Josh, albeit in different modes of being

    We're going backwards here. I don't disagree with this. When you say "different modes of being," I'm simply saying that difference combined with the sameness (R) is what makes analogical predication, period. God is wise in an absolutely different way than Socrates, but they both are unified in a relative way to wisdom itself.

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  86. Josh:

    We're going backwards here. I don't disagree with this. When you say "different modes of being," I'm simply saying that difference combined with the sameness (R) is what makes analogical predication, period. God is wise in an absolutely different way than Socrates, but they both are unified in a relative way to wisdom itself.

    I agree that analogical predication requires partial sameness and partial difference. Removing either one of those qualifiers results in either univocity or equivocation. But, I also think that we can focus upon either the partial sameness or the partial difference to the exclusion of the other, in the same way that we abstract away any differences to focus upon something in common. And once we do this, then we are in the realm of univocal predication.

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  87. "The modus is how the res appears to the human mind"

    Sort of, but again, not in the sense of a Fregean Sinn. The modus significandi is one very specific aspect of how a thing appears to the human mind (because the human mind presents it that way in a particular act of predication).

    "which is necessarily as a cognitive and linguistic mental construct of some kind that refers to the res."

    Okay... that's very vague though. And since you really want 'sense and reference,' how about 'quality and substance': Aquinas, 3SN d.6.q.1.a.3:

    ...in quolibet nomine est duo considerare: scilicet id a quo imponitur nomen, quod dicitur qualitas nominis, et id cui imponitur, quod dicitur substantia nominis. Et nomen, proprie loquendo, dicitur significare formam sive qualitatem a qua imponitur nomen; dicitur vero supponere pro eo cui imponitur.

    "In any name there are two things to consider, namely that from which the name is imposed, which is called the quality of the name; and that upon which the name is imposed, which is called the substance of the name. And the name, properly speaking, is said to signify the form, or quality, from which the name is imposed, and is said to supposit for (refer to) that upon which it is imposed."

    "That construct is either simple but non-subsistent, or subsistent but composite, because that is the only way that anything can appear to the human mind, according to its intrinsic structure and operations."

    I'm not sure what you mean. 'The construct' itself is either simple but non-subsistent, or subsistent but composite? Can you clarify what you mean by 'the construct'?

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  88. Dguller, are you saying that univocal predication between two analogous things depends on the subjective interest of minds?

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  89. David M:

    Sort of, but again, not in the sense of a Fregean Sinn.

    Forget Frege. I want us to come to an agreed upon understanding of Aquinas’ terminology, as best as we can. I think we’re starting to make some progress here.

    The modus significandi is one very specific aspect of how a thing appears to the human mind (because the human mind presents it that way in a particular act of predication).

    Agreed.

    I'm not sure what you mean. 'The construct' itself is either simple but non-subsistent, or subsistent but composite? Can you clarify what you mean by 'the construct'?

    By “the construct”, I mean that which is constructed or produced by the mind according to its cognitive and linguistic structure as a representation of the res significata. It is what the mind puts together to stand for the res.

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  90. Anonymous:

    Dguller, are you saying that univocal predication between two analogous things depends on the subjective interest of minds?

    Only in the sense that it depends upon what the mind chooses to focus upon. A mountain exists independently of the human mind, but it can be approached in different ways, depending upon what a person wants to experience and understand. For example, it can be approached from the standpoint of geology, of chemistry, of physics, of aesthetics, of athletics, and so on.

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  91. guller:

    "By “the construct”, I mean that which is constructed or produced by the mind according to its cognitive and linguistic structure as a representation of the res significata. It is what the mind puts together to stand for the res."

    Do you just mean concepts? These are abstracted from things as regards their qualitative content (meaning, sense, signification) and are mental 'constructs' as regards the universality by which the mind represents this content.

    Does that sound right?

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  92. Thanks for clarifying. There's another thing that I don't understand as a newcomer to this discussion. I can't say that a white house and and a white dog are the same because they are both white. What I can say that they are the same with regards to color. But that implies that there are other regards in which the house may or may not be the same. In other words, even when focusing on a certain part/aspect, I can't "escape" the big picture.

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  93. I forgot an "is"

    "What I can say is that they are the same with regards to color."

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  94. But, I also think that we can focus upon either the partial sameness or the partial difference to the exclusion of the other, in the same way that we abstract away any differences to focus upon something in common. And once we do this, then we are in the realm of univocal predication.

    Right, and for all reading, I think this serves as a useful summation of the basic disagreement that I think neither of us is going to budge on. Because in my understanding, insofar as we are predicating something of anything, we precisely cannot abstract the one to the exclusion of the other without losing the predication itself. For instance, one cannot abstract away the differences in sense between immaterial and material "sight" to arrive at a commonality without making the senses a predication of something else with respect to which they can be understood univocally. The challenge for Dguller in that example would be to show how the term "sight" is ultimately reducible to a common meaning predicated between the both of them. And it's not, because immaterial sight and material sight have their own irreducible ways of taking in forms. And this is indicated my the prefix im- for the one.

    But this will go round and around, because he will then introduce generalized senses of alternate predications which are unrelated to the original of "sight," and claim that these vindicate the notion of univocality at the core. I will deny, because etc. etc.

    But for all the nastiness thrown his way on this, I believe I (and perhaps Michael) have understood him and get (mostly) what he's getting at, and our positions aren't that different. We just come to different conclusions.

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  95. David M:

    Do you just mean concepts? These are abstracted from things as regards their qualitative content (meaning, sense, signification) and are mental 'constructs' as regards the universality by which the mind represents this content.

    To quote Rocca:

    “… a physical noise (vox) becomes a word (diction) and a part of speech (pars orationis) by possessing a determine manner of signifying (modus significandi) within the language, but the manner of signifying is directly conditioned by the human manner of understanding (modus intelligendi), which is itself representative of the various categories and modes of real being (modus essendi)” (Ibid., p. 338).

    I would say that concepts would best be situated within the modus intelligendi, and not the modus significandi, even though the latter completely depends upon the former. In some ways, this distinction itself is quite artificial, because all concepts are embedded within language, and all language is embedded within concepts, and so there isn’t a neat separation of the two into independent and distinct modes.

    But I think that we both agree that something is present to the human mind, and this something represents the res in some way. Furthermore, this something represents the res according to the “human manner of understanding”, as Rocca describes above, which conditions it into a particular mode. This something is what I would call the modus, which I would also call the “sense”, even though it does not entirely line up with the Fregean idea.

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  96. Josh:

    "But for all the nastiness thrown his way on this, I believe I (and perhaps Michael) have understood him and get (mostly) what he's getting at, and our positions aren't that different. We just come to different conclusions."

    I hope you can understand that your implication here - that your pro-analogical predication position is NOT that different from guller's anti-position, and that any 'nastiness' directed towards guller was simply a function of thinking that his position WAS that different - is utter bullshit.

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  97. I hope you can understand that your implication here - that your pro-analogical predication position is NOT that different from guller's anti-position, and that any 'nastiness' directed towards guller was simply a function of thinking that his position WAS that different - is utter bullshit

    Thanks, I feel privileged to receive the Dguller treatment. I actually think the nastiness (which I've thrown his way once or twice before) is more just a function of being an ass, not a cognitive misapprehension. He doesn't deserve it, period. His careful citation of distinguished Thomists whom he has clearly labored to understand raises him to an echelon where he shouldn't have to deal with the crap one may feed obvious trolls.

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  98. guller:

    "To quote Rocca [NO, NOT ROCCA! GIMME AQUINAS!]:

    “… a physical noise (vox) becomes a word (dictio) and a part of speech (pars orationis) by possessing a determine manner of signifying (modus significandi) within the language, but the manner of signifying is directly conditioned by the human manner of understanding (modus intelligendi), which is itself representative of the various categories and modes of real being (modus essendi)” (Ibid., p. 338)."

    Is this supposed to be a summation of some passage from Aquinas? Considered in itself it is a mere tissue of unclear terminology.

    "I would say that concepts would best be situated within the modus intelligendi, and not the modus significandi, even though the latter completely depends upon the former. In some ways, this distinction itself is quite artificial, because all concepts are embedded within language, and all language is embedded within concepts, and so there isn’t a neat separation of the two into independent and distinct modes."

    But I think you have no idea how Aquinas actually uses these terms, which is to say you have no idea what they actually mean. And your comments about them are unintelligible to me (i.e., gibberish, baloney, BS, nonsense), given what I know about their actual meanings in actual Thomistic texts. Maybe I should take a look at the context of the Rocca quote. What was the name of the book?

    "But I think that we both agree that something is present to the human mind, and this something represents the res in some way. [YES.] Furthermore, this something represents the res according to the “human manner of understanding” [INEVITABLY], as Rocca describes above [???], which conditions it into a particular mode [???]. This something is what I would call the modus, which I would also call the “sense”, even though it does not entirely line up with the Fregean idea."

    No. I doesn't appear to line up with the Fregean idea at all. Or the Thomistic one in the SCG I.30. But maybe that's an idiosyncratic passage. Do you have a better one I can refer to?

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  99. Hey Josh, pile it on, man. The good Dr. Feser did I lovely post on bullshit recently - check it out.

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  100. (I've got nothing against you, Josh, honest - it's just that bullshit's bullshit. I can't force you to understand that. *shrug*)

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  101. Holy moly, I had to dig to find this; this is why I usually check out as comments approach 100.

    I think that you will agree that “wise” is analogous between (1) and (2). But that means that “wise” in (1) is similar to “wise” in (2), which means that “wise” in (1) has something in common with “wise” in (2). What “wise” in (1) has in common with “wise” in (2) is present in God and present in Socrates, or else they wouldn’t have it in common, and we can call is commonality between “wise” in (1) and “wise” in (2), wise(c).

    What has to be in common has to be something common to the predication or the imposition of the term; this needn't have any implications about whether that which is in common is in some way 'present' in the things to which the term is applied. In the case you are suggesting there is no wise(c); what wise(a) and wise(b) have in common is wise(a), because wise(a) is wise(a) and wise(b) is constituted as intelligible by a sort of proportion or ratio to wise(a). Proportion or ratio is the whole point of analogy; it seems to drop out of your account, or at least your account doesn't make obvious why we would be using the Greek word for proportion or ratio here, or why Aquinas is clearly emphasizing this aspect of the word. And what is in common between a, which involves a proportion to b and b? We don't need to answer anything other than b.

    [In ST 1.13.5] Here, Aquinas specifically mentions “multiple sense” and “to some one thing”, which is “the same”. So, I take him to mean that analogous terms have different senses, but the same referent.

    I think you are being misled by a slightly loose translation; the original just says 'but a name that is said multiply [mulipliciter]'. But, again, even our ordinary English, outside of quasi-Fregean contexts, 'in many senses' is not 'sense' in the 'sense-and-reference' sense, so it doesn't automatically imply anything about referents.

    The way in which we could use the word 'reference' at all here is exactly the one that gives the kind of predication its name: the relation of one thing to another in a proportion or ratio. Thus healthy urine is genuinely healthy but it gets the adjective simply due to an intelligible relation to what is called 'healthy' in a proper sense (living things). So saying that urine is healthy involves a 'reference' to healthy animals. But it's not the term that's doing this kind of referring; rather we are referring, i.e., ordering or proportioning, one use of the term to another. To use the word 'referent' here you have to mean something very odd like 'the ultimate reason why we use the term in this case'.

    I think that you are right that “referent” is being used in two different senses: (1) what the statement is about (i.e. the referent), and (2) what the statement is about has in common with what another statement is about (i.e. the common referent).

    This is closer, but, again, in Aquinas analogy is a matter of predication or naming and how we do it, not a matter of what statements are about, which already presupposes predication and naming.

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  102. I have to add, incidentally, that I, too, am getting a bit tired of the attacks on dguller. The comment threads here are more than a bit rough and tumble, so I don't expect sweetness and roses, but there reaches a point where it's not just pushback or frustration or expression of incredulity and instead just becomes a waste of everyone's time.

    Plus, however one may evaluate the arguments themselves, dguller's arguments recently have been interesting arguments, touching directly on important points and drawing on things worth taking into account. I haven't agreed with a single one, but I haven't seen anything perverse or stupid about them. And an interesting objectio, no matter how massively one thinks it goes wrong, is something anyone of Thomistic tastes has to think a pretty worthwhile thing.

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  103. "however one may evaluate the arguments themselves, dguller's arguments recently have been interesting arguments"

    Brandon, aren't you just begging the question with this claim?

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  104. Josh:

    Right, and for all reading, I think this serves as a useful summation of the basic disagreement that I think neither of us is going to budge on. Because in my understanding, insofar as we are predicating something of anything, we precisely cannot abstract the one to the exclusion of the other without losing the predication itself. For instance, one cannot abstract away the differences in sense between immaterial and material "sight" to arrive at a commonality without making the senses a predication of something else with respect to which they can be understood univocally. The challenge for Dguller in that example would be to show how the term "sight" is ultimately reducible to a common meaning predicated between the both of them. And it's not, because immaterial sight and material sight have their own irreducible ways of taking in forms. And this is indicated my the prefix im- for the one.

    Here’s how I think about this issue. Take the following propositions:

    (1) X is P
    (2) Y is P

    P in both (1) and (2) has both a sense (i.e. modus, and not Fregean) and a referent (i.e. res, and not Fregean), which we can call S1, S2, R1 and R2, respectively, and so we can expand them out as follows:

    (3) X is {“P”, S1, R1}
    (4) Y is {“P”, S2, R2}

    What this means is that “P” in (1) is about R1 as mediated by S1, and “P” in (2) is about R2 as mediated by S2. In an example of analogous predication, it is the case that S1 is different from S2, and the only debate is the relationship between R1 and R2. I don’t think that R1 is identical to R2, but I do think that R1 is like R2 in the sense that they have something in common, which we can call C. It is precisely the presence of C in R1 and R2 that grounds the similarity relationship between them, and so we can talk about C-in-R1 and C-in-R2. If there was no C in R1 and R2, then there is no likeness or similarity, either, and so it must be there.

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  105. Moving on, I don’t see why we cannot talk about C itself. To deny that this is possible would be like denying that we can talk about the formally identical human nature that is present in each and every particular human being. Even though, in reality, human nature cannot exist as a concrete reality itself, and always exists within some concrete entity, we can still talk about it, and when we talk about it, the question is whether it has the same sense and referent? I think that it does, which is precisely why it is formally identical. Otherwise, the concept of human nature would have different senses and referents, and thus be unable to ground our knowledge of universals.

    And if that is true, and I’m open to being proven wrong, then I don’t see why the same analysis cannot apply to C-in-R1 and C-in-R2. When we talk about the C abstracted from –in-R1 and –in-R2, does “C” in R1 and R2 have the same sense and referent? I think that it does, because if it did not, then that would undermine the very commonality that is required for the similarity relationship between R1 and R2. After all, what sense is there in saying that C is common between R1 and R2 if C is different in each. Instead of C-in-R1 and C-in-R2, one would have C1-in-R1 and C2-in-R2, and that would eliminate the commonality altogether, because C1 is not C2.

    So, I stand by my position that even though it may be extremely difficult to talk about C, it is necessary that this be possible, and this possibility requires that when we talk about C, we must do so with the same sense and referent. This would hold between immaterial vision and material vision, if they are indeed similar, and it would also hold between God’s being and created being, if they are indeed similar.

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  106. Brandon:

    I'll try to comment on your points later tonight. As usual, they are extremely reasonable and highly clarifying. And I also appreciate the kind words of support.

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  107. David M:

    And just one thing about civility. You seem to have some degree of admiration for Thomas Aquinas, otherwise, why even bother being in this combox at all. I'm sure that you will have noticed that his ST involves questions that always begin with objections that he subsequently responds to. I'm sure that you've also noticed that he never uses disparaging or dismissive language when responding to the objections, and always treats them with respect, even if he disagrees with all of them. That should be the standard of etiquette in a rational discussion. So, why not let Aquinas be our role model in this discussion?

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  108. I don’t think that R1 is identical to R2, but I do think that R1 is like R2 in the sense that they have something in common, which we can call C

    Hm, in my estimation R1 and R2 being identical in concept, i.e., pointing to the same thing, is precisely what grounds the analogy, not a similarity relationship on that level. I'd equate this to Brandon's "rather we are referring, i.e., ordering or proportioning, one use of the term to another." It's the ratio of wisdom, sight, etc. related from one subject to the other which is the same in both cases. In which case, there's no C, except to say R1 and R2 are C, not C and something else.

    The reason we can refer univocally to "man" in Socrates and Plato is precisely because it has the same sense and reference when predicated with the differences perfectly abstracted (as we've been throwing those terms about):

    R: human nature
    S: concrete sense

    So yeah, I agree; the S and R are formally identical as predicated.

    I'll defer to Brandon otherwise; he's the professional--

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  109. >however one may evaluate the arguments themselves, dguller's arguments recently have been interesting arguments".

    How can a straw man argument be interesting?

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  110. Anyone interested in what I'm trying to follow can look here specifically:

    http://thomism.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/analogy-in-st-thomas/

    Or, just read any of J. Chastek's posts about analogy

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  111. > That should be the standard of etiquette in a rational discussion. So, why not let Aquinas be our role model in this discussion?

    Aquinas never debated anyone. He wrote as clearly as possible for him, his views and arguments.

    In a discussion there must be a semblance of trust & give and take.

    When your goal is just to have the last word at all costs & you are reduced to out and out lying at one point then what merit is there really in merely having never used formal insult?

    There isn't and it's not a model for discussion Aquinas would have agreed with.

    It's just being a sophisticated troll.

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  112. guller:

    "I'm sure that you've also noticed that he never uses disparaging or dismissive language when responding to the objections, and always treats them with respect, even if he disagrees with all of them."

    That's simply not true. And if it were true, it would be irrelevant, inasmuch as the Thomas we read is not a man engaging in live dialogue with an interlocutor who repeatedly misinterprets and ignores the objections raised against his position. Now perhaps I am mistaking in believing that you have done this, but you (and others) can't just beg the question by assuming that I'm wrong, can you?

    That said, in spite of the frustration, I enjoy discussing these interesting questions with you, and I will try to be more sensitive towards you so that I'm not ruining your enjoyment of the same.

    With regard to insinuations that my judgments regarding the poor quality of your argumentation [which is independent of how interesting your position or the issues you want to raise may be] are ill-justified: gratuitously asserted, gratuitously denied. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know how I'm wrong. What did I miss? Did begging the question suddenly become de rigueur?

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  113. >And if it were true, it would be irrelevant, inasmuch as the Thomas we read is not a man engaging in live dialogue with an interlocutor who repeatedly misinterprets and ignores the objections raised against his position.

    Amen!

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  114. A problem of the will rather than a problem of the intellect.

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  115. Listen guys, I gather you have tons of respect for dguller. That's awesome.

    Dguller pretty much stated the doctrine of the Trinity is absurd and none of you batted an eye.

    "But this is absurd, and for a number of reasons that I don’t need to go over, because they’re pretty obvious." (basically you're stupid for not seeing it)

    Gnus do the same thing and you guys jump all over them. The regular posters here assure me the gnus have no idea what they're talking about. Am I to assume that dguller does know what he's talking about then?

    Say what you will about Ben and his lack of etiquette, but I've seen him go to bat for the doctrine of the Trinity when the rest of you bow out.

    Either you bow out because you don't think the doctrine is defensible or because you think it's pointless to argue with dguller on the subject. If the latter is true, perhaps you shouldn't be so hard on old Ben. Because that's basically what he's been saying in a less than respectful way.

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  116. Thank you Anon for the support.

    It is much appreciated.

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  117. You're very welcome sir.

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  118. Either you bow out because you don't think the doctrine is defensible or because you think it's pointless to argue with dguller on the subject. If the latter is true, perhaps you shouldn't be so hard on old Ben. Because that's basically what he's been saying in a less than respectful way.

    Dguller may be an ass about the Trinity; I wouldn't know, not having read it. I know he's not an ass about analogy. The ways he is distinguished from the rest include:

    1) patience
    2) reading/citing the actual source material
    3) not just mere counter-assertion; an effort to craft a trail that people can follow by which dialogue can proceed

    Maybe he didn't follow those habits in other threads on other topics--I'm skeptical, but willing to be convinced?

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  119. "Dguller may be an ass about the Trinity; I wouldn't know, not having read it."

    Yeah, I checked out your blog and you mentioned in a recent post that dguller's position hasn't changed in 2 years. Was that only in regards to his thoughts on analogy? He's blasted the Trinity on considerably more occasions than he's commented on analogy. So if you haven't noticed that, I don't know how you could comment on his "unchanging" position in regards to analogy.

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  120. >Maybe he didn't follow those habits in other threads on other topics--I'm skeptical, but willing to be convinced?

    He out and out lied to me. I was there.

    >I know he's not an ass about analogy.

    Which view of analogy? Cajetan's? McInerney? Analogy as a Logical doctrine on naming God? Or Analogy as a doctrine on Proportion?

    He just proof texts out of left field.

    I find it hard to believe he has found some omni-objection to analogy that encompasses all known versions.

    Indeed the first time I saw him argue about analogy was when I first encountered him. His argument is the same as it is now(a variation on the Scotus objection. Hardly original) and he was insisting the doctrine of the incarnation must mean God changes his unchanging divine nature into a human one.

    I was once a fan. He was once pretty good.

    Now he is Nora Desmond.

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  121. Since I didn't, in fact, bow out of the Trinity discussion, the argument simply fails.

    As to, "Am I to assume that dguller does know what he's talking about then?" the answer to the question is pretty much what Josh said: we aren't in these cases dealing with cliches or things thrown out by people who haven't put any work into it, but someone who is actually reading St. Thomas, and the commentaries by more modern Thomistic figures on the relevant subjects, and giving arguments for conclusions on the basis of it. This is something one can work with.

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  122. To be fair.

    David M & Glenn & Scott have given me support in arguing the Trinity with dguller.

    He behaves a bit when many people are watching him.

    When it is just with me or DavidM he lets his true colors shine.

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  123. "Since I didn't, in fact, bow out of the Trinity discussion, the argument simply fails."

    How did the discussion about the Trinity between dguller and yourself end?

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  124. Anonymous:

    Dguller pretty much stated the doctrine of the Trinity is absurd and none of you batted an eye.

    No, it’s just that they didn’t want to get into a side discussion that would distract from the main topic.

    "But this is absurd, and for a number of reasons that I don’t need to go over, because they’re pretty obvious." (basically you're stupid for not seeing it)

    Actually, no. What I said was that the conclusion that what distinguishes the divine persons from one another is a creature is absurd, and it is obvious why this is absurd.

    Either you bow out because you don't think the doctrine is defensible or because you think it's pointless to argue with dguller on the subject. If the latter is true, perhaps you shouldn't be so hard on old Ben. Because that's basically what he's been saying in a less than respectful way.

    Or, they just want to focus upon the discussion at hand.

    And the problem with Ben is that he assumes that if he repeats himself hundreds of times and I disagree with him, then it must be because I am a worthless piece of shit who is dishonest and willfully stupid. He doesn’t consider the possibility that his explanation simply isn’t persuasive, or that I simply an not at a sufficient level of understanding to get his point. I’m not saying that he is wrong, but only that I don’t see how he could be right. Maybe one day I’ll see that he was right, and maybe one day he’ll see that I’m right. The only difference between us is that I don’t automatically assume that he is a worthless degenerate bastard for disagreeing with me, because I’m obviously right.

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  125. "No, it’s just that they didn’t want to get into a side discussion that would distract from the main topic."

    Well that's very admirable of you guller. Perhaps you should have ignored done the same and ignored Ben when he brought it up? Here's your chance to apologize for the slip though.

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  126. So if you haven't noticed that, I don't know how you could comment on his "unchanging" position in regards to analogy.

    Simple enough; I stop reading comboxes when I'm not interested...sometimes, I don't even read them at all! Plus, I'm not a frequent commenter anyway. Dguller got me interested in this one thing a long time ago, and I follow that thread when I'm able. I'd say both mine and Dguller's positions have been refined, but his not substantially. IMHO.

    I'm having to defend being nice to someone on the internet, absent clear evidence that I shouldn't. C'mon fellas.

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  127. Anonymous:

    Well that's very admirable of you guller. Perhaps you should have ignored done the same and ignored Ben when he brought it up? Here's your chance to apologize for the slip though.

    You’re right. I should’ve ignored it, and focused upon the topic at hand. I apologize for the unnecessary distraction.

    In fact, I apologize for becoming a distraction myself, because people are now talking about me instead of the arguments. This should not be some Team Jacob versus Team Edward kind of thing. After all, we are all interested in the truth, and are having these discussions in order to help one another get closer to the truth, because it is vitally important that we lives our lives correctly. Our personal imperfections, of which I have quite a few, are irrelevant. David M is absolutely correct that, ultimately, it comes down to the arguments themselves, and whether they are good or bad. Who is making the argument simply does not matter.

    So, although I truly appreciate the commenters who have been supportive -- particularly when pointing out that I am working really hard to understand these issues, and do not come to my positions lightheartedly – might I politely recommend that we return to the topic at hand, especially because it is endlessly fascinating?

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  128. David M:

    Is this supposed to be a summation of some passage from Aquinas? Considered in itself it is a mere tissue of unclear terminology.

    It is a summation of the medieval theory of speculative grammar, which Aquinas was referencing with his modus and res terminology. He did not invent these terms and concepts out of thin air, and was dipping into a pre-existing tradition. Rocca was just providing a concise summary.

    Maybe I should take a look at the context of the Rocca quote. What was the name of the book?

    It is called Speaking the Incomprehensible God.

    "But I think that we both agree that something is present to the human mind, and this something represents the res in some way. [YES.]

    Good.

    Furthermore, this something represents the res according to the “human manner of understanding” [INEVITABLY],

    Good.

    as Rocca describes above [???]

    When he said that the modus significandi is conditioned by the modus intelligendi.

    which conditions it into a particular mode [???].

    “Mode” as in “particular way or manner”. Our manner of understanding affects our manner of communicating via language.

    This something is what I would call the modus, which I would also call the “sense”, even though it does not entirely line up with the Fregean idea." No. I doesn't appear to line up with the Fregean idea at all.

    Fine. It is completely equivocal to Fregean sense. They have absolutely nothing in common.

    Or the Thomistic one in the SCG I.30. But maybe that's an idiosyncratic passage. Do you have a better one I can refer to?

    Sure, it does. In that very quote, Aquinas mentions that “as regards the mode of signifying, every name is with defect”, because “by a name we express the thing in the way in which by the intellect we conceive it.” The only point that I’m hoping that we’ll agree upon is that the mode of signification is how the thing signified is present to the human mind, according to its manner of understanding. It is precisely because of the various imperfections of human understanding that the mode of signification is defective, especially when the thing signified is a perfection that lacks all defect.

    the mind constructs a representation of the thing signified.

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  129. "I'm having to defend being nice to someone on the internet, absent clear evidence that I shouldn't. C'mon fellas."

    Absolutely not. I admire that fact.



    "In fact, I apologize for becoming a distraction myself, because people are now talking about me instead of the arguments. This should not be some Team Jacob versus Team Edward kind of thing."

    While I'm tempted to disregard everything you have to say because of the Twilight reference, I appreciate your point. Lol





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  130. Brandon:

    What has to be in common has to be something common to the predication or the imposition of the term; this needn't have any implications about whether that which is in common is in some way 'present' in the things to which the term is applied.

    I think it does, because the whole point of the doctrine of analogy is that we can use our understanding of creation to have some kind of understanding of God. In other words, it is only because creation is like God in the same way that an effect is like its cause that we can have any positive knowledge of God at all. The only way for this to be possible is if God and creation have something in common, which must be present in both God and creation that grounds the similarity relationship.

    Aquinas himself says that “where there is pure equivocation, there is no likeness in things themselves; there is only the unity of a name. But, as is clear from what we have said, there is a certain mode of likeness of things to God. It remains, then, that names are not said of God in a purely equivocal way. Moreover, when one name is predicated of several things in a purely equivocal way, we cannot from one of them be led to the knowledge of another; for the knowledge of things does not depend on words, but on the meaning of names.” (SCG 1.33.3-4).

    In the case you are suggesting there is no wise(c); what wise(a) and wise(b) have in common is wise(a), because wise(a) is wise(a) and wise(b) is constituted as intelligible by a sort of proportion or ratio to wise(a). Proportion or ratio is the whole point of analogy; it seems to drop out of your account, or at least your account doesn't make obvious why we would be using the Greek word for proportion or ratio here, or why Aquinas is clearly emphasizing this aspect of the word. And what is in common between a, which involves a proportion to b and b? We don't need to answer anything other than b.

    From what I understand, Aquinas argues that there is a primary meaning that is present in all secondary meanings. For example, the primary meaning of “healthy” is “a state of equilibrium and well-being”, and this primary meaning is present in all the secondary meanings of “healthy”, such as the cause of health (e.g. “the food is healthy”), the sign of health (e.g. “the urine is healthy”), and so on. So, all the secondary meanings necessarily include and incorporate the primary meaning. Gregory Rocca calls the primary meaning the “central anchoring thread from which the spokes radiate” (Speaking the Incomprehensible God, p. 138). But again, since likeness implies commonality, the primary meaning must be present both within itself and within the secondary meaning. So, the primary meaning is what they have in common.

    This is closer, but, again, in Aquinas analogy is a matter of predication or naming and how we do it, not a matter of what statements are about, which already presupposes predication and naming.

    But, as I described above, this seems to ignore or minimize the ontological underpinnings that ground his theory of analogical predication.

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  131. For the Record I did not bring up the Trinity here dguller did that.

    >No, it’s just that they didn’t want to get into a side discussion that would distract from the main topic.

    Dguller your the one who first brought up the Trinity and Divine Simplicity here. Not I. I addressed you originally here on the topic of analogy.

    This is you.
    QUOTE"Just something that came up in a previous discussion about the Trinity and divine simplicity. I used this idea to argue that the two were incompatible, but that's a whole other story."END QUOTE December 5, 2013 at 12:56 PM

    I responded 'You made up your own definition of divine simplicity that exuded all real relations in the Godhead not just physical and metaphysical as taught by Catholic dictionaries and theology manuals. "

    So enough of your dishonest passive aggressive innocent act, you are spoiling for a fight.>

    >Actually, no. What I said was that the conclusion that what distinguishes the divine persons from one another is a creature is absurd, and it is obvious why this is absurd.

    dguller I've focused on the brute fact the doctrine contains no logical contradiction. I have told you repeatedly(& even Scott mentioned it to you in passing) what distinguishes the divine persons is NOTreal physical or metaphysical distinction but an impenetrable mystery. That is the doctrine. Disbelieve in it if you will. Call it meaningless but enough of your goofy claims of logical contradiction. Your tangents are so tedious.

    >And the problem with Ben is that he assumes that if he repeats himself hundreds of times and I disagree with him, then it must be because I am a worthless piece of shit who is dishonest and willfully stupid.

    It's is not open for discussion. Doctrines are brute facts which are ad hoc defined by their respective religions. I don't care if you don't believe in any god or if He exists He is or is not a Trinity. I just think you have no right to make up your own doctrine and act like that is the one we Christians believe in. For example your latest weird claim in the last thread the divine relations are really distinct from the essence. I quoted Ott & other Catholic sources that they are the same & professed belief in that fact. You ignore me & act like that is some critical fact I don't hold or believe in & you wait some time and repeat it. WTF?

    >He doesn’t consider the possibility that his explanation simply isn’t persuasive, or that I simply an not at a sufficient level of understanding to get his point.

    If you really think this then why am I hearing this now? You had 4000 posts to say this to me & had you said it earlier I would have no beef with you. You choose to be dick I only offered you friendship. Also you arrogantly pontificated on a doctrine you clearly made no effort to understand. You claimed you understood it better then any Christian here. That is just sick & arrogant.

    >I’m not saying that he is wrong, but only that I don’t see how he could be right. Maybe one day I’ll see that he was right, and maybe one day he’ll see that I’m right. The only difference between us is that I don’t automatically assume that he is a worthless degenerate bastard for disagreeing with me, because I’m obviously right.

    It's really not hard to see the objective defined doctrine makes no "God is 'X" and "Not X" at the same time in the same sense calms".
    Your whole "response" was to spend your time redefining the doctrine to taylor it to your objection. From feigning ignorance as to the meaning of the term "sense" too making up your own doctrine of divine simplicity & other offenses.

    It's your vile conduct in this area that makes me think you are a bastard.

    To think I once praised you across the internet & held you up as a model of the rational Atheist.

    You failed me. But worst you failed yourself.

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  132. I think it does, because the whole point of the doctrine of analogy is that we can use our understanding of creation to have some kind of understanding of God.

    This gets it backwards; genuine naming presupposes understanding, not vice versa. The point of the doctrine of analogy is merely to identify a fact about terms, namely, that they can be predicated in ways that are neither univocal nor equivocal; it so happens that the way we can get some understanding of God, by recognizing him as primary cause, is a way that makes it possible to predicate analogically of God and creatures. Take the prior example: Socrates's wisdom is a qualified derivation from unqualified underived wisdom itself. But what Socrates's derivative wisdom and God's primary wisdom have in common is that God's primary wisdom is primary wisdom and that Socrates's derived wisdom by its nature is ordered or proportioned to primary wisdom. But we can't generalize this kind of relation to all cases of analogy; that you are predicating analogically on its own tells you nothing about the ordering between analogates (beyond the fact that there is some such ordering).

    From what I understand, Aquinas argues that there is a primary meaning that is present in all secondary meanings.

    Exactly. Notice that we are talking about meanings (ways of predicating or naming) being present in meanings; our use of a term in one case can be done in such a way that it has reference/ordering/proportion to another such use. As I said before, what has to be in common in analogy has to be something common to the predicating or naming. And what is common is the primary analogate -- or to use the prior example, wise(a) is what is common to wise(a) and wise(b), because wise(b) has a proportion or reference to wise(a). So your suggested wise(c) seems not to add anything.

    But, as I described above, this seems to ignore or minimize the ontological underpinnings that ground his theory of analogical predication.

    But the relation between statements and ontological underpinnings is more distant than that between predications or names and ontological underpinnings, because, again, statements presuppose predications or names. Analogy pertains to the latter.

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  133. How did the discussion about the Trinity between dguller and yourself end?

    I pointed out what was wrong with his argument; he wasn't convinced it was fatal. The argument didn't really move on from there. Can Ben honestly say that he has ever had a discussion with dguller that has ended differently? When has Ben put an end to the argument, ever, particularly given that he himself complains loudly that it keeps not ending? How did his discussion with dguller end, given that it's still here and has gone exactly nowhere, by his own repeated admissions? Do you actually think through what you write in that comment box, or do you just spout any stupid response that comes to mind?

    And while I have nothing against Ben at all, there is simply not any possible way that he's put more into showing where arguments against the Trinity go wrong than I have. Your entire argument is useless and poorly thought out, built on a fabric of your imagination and a vague imputation of motives to people who are in fact actually doing the substantive arguing and not just making occasional sniping comments from under the cover of 'Anonymous'. How did your last discussion with dguller end? How would we even know? Stop using Ben as a shield for your sniping; let's actually put the matter where it matters. Between the two of us, you and me, which of us has actually done more to show how arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity fail? What was your last resoundingly brilliant and rational defense against an objection? When did you show extraordinary rational prowess on the subject that put me to shame? My record's out there, if that's what is suddenly important; and I've taken on much more significant people on the subject than random commenters on a blog. The hubris is extraordinary; it's a little coward hiding under 'Anonymous' complaining that the people actually fighting on a large scale can be dismissed as cowards for daring to insist that charging-berserker melee is not the best strategy for every freaking battle.

    And this is precisely what I mean: between you and dguller, at this point in time it's not dguller who is wasting my time with stupid arguments.

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  134. "How did your last discussion with dguller end? How would we even know?"

    I don't. That's why I asked. I assumed it was along the lines of "The argument didn't really move on from there."



    "Between the two of us, you and me, which of us has actually done more to show how arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity fail?"

    You of course. I'd never argue against this fact. I've thought plenty of your points were brilliant on the matter.



    "What was your last resoundingly brilliant and rational defense against an objection? When did you show extraordinary rational prowess on the subject that put me to shame?"

    I have none to speak of sir, I sadly admit. Squaring off one on one with dguller would end with me with my tail between my legs. I still know the truth of Catholic doctrine. Which is why it's helpful on a personal level to watch the discussion.

    Watching hundreds of posts between Ben and dguller, I can sympathize with Ben. That was the thrust of my comments. Maybe Ben should have left the discussion in the same manner as yourself and others have done. Right or wrong though, there's a part of me that appreciates the fact that he sticks around though.



    "The hubris is extraordinary; it's a little coward hiding under 'Anonymous' complaining that the people actually fighting on a large scale can be dismissed as cowards for daring to insist that charging-berserker melee is not the best strategy for every freaking battle."

    Coward? I don't think you're a coward. I never said that and if you got that impression by my use of the term "bow out" I apologize. I bow out of stuff all the time. In fact, I'll bow out of this thread shortly.

    My "argument" is, despite all his faults, I like and appreciate Ben. Which is what I was hoping to convey.

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  135. Brandon with all due respect(& I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I respect your superior knowledge & mad skills btw) it seems Anon has merely asked you a simple question & unless you have a history of him vexing you I don't think it was necessary to bite his head off for merely defending moit. Or assume the worst of him.

    It's also a tad bit ironic given your negative view of treating dguller "badly".

    I may be a jerk sometimes but I have enough of a sense of justice to do so only against those who have earned it.

    Disagreeing with me doesn't put me off.

    Telling me what I believe for me & or pretending you understand a religion you don't belong to & haven't lived or learned about is very off putting and rude as I am sure you will agree.

    Peace.

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  136. >My "argument" is, despite all his faults, I like and appreciate Ben. Which is what I was hoping to convey.

    To which I again thank you for saying so.

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  137. Ben youve been going about it the wrong way. For example. Telling someone -who is trying to establish Trinity on rational grounds,- that his argument is heretical, or "noncatholic" is completely beside the point and....umm....err...im sure there is an official name for that type of fallacy. You arguing with him like hes from some sorta christian denom, that rejects trinity, when he hasnt even expressed belief in God. His argument have been like this: If there i this one God that you say there is why a trinity an not a "monad" You are jumping the gun 10 steps ahead and doing it with anger. This is just one example of the way you argue.

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  138. Scott: Please consider not only what what you feel and think but what you represent.

    This really is an important point. Nobody is going to believe a philosophy that supposedly preaches virtue if it is being promoted by a jerk. And it's not just anger, either — an isolated outburst of pique here or there wouldn't bother me so much. Most of the time I skip over this sort of nonsense (or even don't see it), but I think it is important, and sometimes it needs to be addressed. It can be discouraging if nobody ever speaks up about bad behaviour, so I'm heartened to see some thoughtful points here (even if it is off-topic!).

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  139. David M: I hope you know that my 'invective' is indeed motivated by frustration, but it's never (I hope) without love, so I'm sorry if that doesn't always come through.

    No, in all seriousness, that isn't coming through at all. I have no problem with a bit of sarcasm or tweaking someone's nose, but if you were under the impression that flinging out four-letter words and streams of invective directed personally at a commenter (not even at his arguments) constitutes good-natured ribbing between chums, then your bedside manner needs some work.

    Please also note that while mistreating your interlocutor is a serious and direct problem, it is not necessarily the worst one. (In this case, frankly, DGuller is perfectly capable of taking care of himself.) It is also disrespectful to our host, under whose name all these comments appear (and behind his back at that — ever notice how the real invective only starts when a thread gets really long, far past the point where Ed is likely to be able to notice it himself?). And beyond that, it is disrespectful to me. This is my concern too, and that of every other poster here, and of all the lurkers reading this who do not post, because you are polluting our shared space. If you want to act this way in private conversations, well, that's on your head. But if you continue these discussion in public, then you have an obligation to consider the company into which you intrude.

    Anyway, I'm glad that you clarified that it wasn't your intent merely to be offensive. I think it was worth listing these reasons why some of us complain about this anyway, because they are genuine reasons; it's not a matter of picking on you or anyone else (there are certainly others who have acted worse in other threads).

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  140. Anonymous: Either you bow out because you don't think the doctrine is defensible or because you think it's pointless to argue with dguller on the subject. If the latter is true, perhaps you shouldn't be so hard on old Ben. Because that's basically what he's been saying in a less than respectful way.

    You've entirely missed the point. It's the "less than respectful" that is the problem.

    I get the impression that you are ashamed of the rest of us for not defending God's honour or something. I can assure you, God will be just fine. But do you really think that despicable insolence will in any way draw someone closer to God? Do you think that He appreciates mean-spirited abuse hurled at someone for asking questions?

    Watching hundreds of posts between Ben and dguller, I can sympathize with Ben.

    Well, I — and apparently many others — can sympathise with BY and with DG... as far as the arguments go. If you cannot, then I would advise practising: it is an essential virtue if one wishes to have productive debates. Sticking-aroundness is fine (actually, both sides should better learn to give up sooner, but if Feser is happy to permit the endless dancing in circles, we shouldn't complain). Again, it is the rudeness that is the problem.

    My "argument" is, despite all his faults, I like and appreciate Ben. Which is what I was hoping to convey.

    Brandon was reacting to your implication that he lacked either the will or the ability to counter DG's base and baseless rhetoric — which is wrong on all counts (and yes, that was the impression I got too). The fact is, it has nothing to do with liking or appreciating BenYachov, or David, or anyone else. When he's not ranting, I'm sure we all appreciate Ben — he is capable of posting perfectly constructive comments (such as, e.g., his contributions about Jewish tradition, which are always interesting and which we don't get from anyone else). But I refuse to condone obnoxious behaviour — let alone be implicated in it by inferred silent consent — regardless of who the source is, or what "side" he's on.

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  141. Brandon: My record's out there, if that's what is suddenly important; and I've taken on much more significant people on the subject than random commenters on a blog.

    And I'll just take this opportunity to slip in a note of thanks: your contributions here are much valued.

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  142. Brandon wrote: "As to, "Am I to assume that dguller does know what he's talking about then?" the answer to the question is pretty much what Josh said: we aren't in these cases dealing with cliches or things thrown out by people who haven't put any work into it, but someone who is actually reading St. Thomas, and the commentaries by more modern Thomistic figures on the relevant subjects, and giving arguments for conclusions on the basis of it. This is something one can work with."

    Well, hey, fellas, even the devil quotes scripture! If anyone thinks the fact that guller (or anyone! - this is a logical point, not a personal one) cites real scholars in order to promote his position is sufficient to show that his arguments are respectable or whatever, you just don't get it! Arguments from authority are real arguments, and in certain contexts the most important kind, but when someone objects to your citation of an authority because he thinks it is irrelevant and you blithely go on your merry little way ignoring this objection and still acting as if all the weight of the authorities cited nonetheless just obviously speaks in your favor... well, sorry, but that's a little annoying! And when it happens again and again, well...

    In any case, as regards my bedside manner, I'm sure Mr. Green is right. But as for needing to clarify that my intent was more than to simply be offensive, I'm afraid, Mr. Green, that if that was not already clear to you from reading everything I've written, then the fault lies with you. I certainly hope (and am confident) that Mr. guller was never under the impression that my sole intent was to offend him.

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  143. Mr. Green:

    "It is also disrespectful to our host, under whose name all these comments appear (and behind his back at that — ever notice how the real invective only starts when a thread gets really long, far past the point where Ed is likely to be able to notice it himself?). "

    I have great respect for Ed and certainly have no intention of disrespecting him. Part of what I respect about him is that he has a sense of humor and doesn't pull punches. He can be wickedly condescending, and in my opinion generally has every right to be. But just an observation: I remember one post where holocaust denial came up, and I can't remember the name of the fellow, but a 'professional' type (like Brandon) who actually has written and gotten published a rather interesting book, was raked over the coals in the harshest terms (by Ben), and Feser had no problem with it (and personally I would have had a problem with it, and I believe I mentioned the fact at the time). Which is to say, I'm not really clear on what Feser would and would not condone in response to any given argument. Maybe you are, but I'm not.

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  144. Josh:

    Hm, in my estimation R1 and R2 being identical in concept, i.e., pointing to the same thing, is precisely what grounds the analogy, not a similarity relationship on that level. I'd equate this to Brandon's "rather we are referring, i.e., ordering or proportioning, one use of the term to another." It's the ratio of wisdom, sight, etc. related from one subject to the other which is the same in both cases. In which case, there's no C, except to say R1 and R2 are C, not C and something else.

    But they don’t point to “the same thing”, which was precisely David’s point. That would be like saying that the terms “food” and “shelter” have the same R, because they both point towards that which is necessary for human survival. I would say that “food” and “shelter” actually have different R’s, i.e. R1 and R2, but I would say that R1 and R2 have a variety of things in common, such as that they are both what is necessary for human survival, amongst a variety of other commonalities.

    And the problem with this position is that it transforms analogical predication into equivocal predication, because even the different R’s in equivocal predication have something in common, because everything has something in common. The “bark” of a tree and the “bark” of a dog are both produced by living things, and thus they are “pointing to the same thing”.

    And again, you yourself brought up the importance of distinguishing the ontology as presupposed by the linguistics. What makes analogical predication possible is that all effects are like their causes, and thus everything has something in common, which what allows us to infer things about causes from their effects. That is precisely a “similarity relationship on that level”, and it is absolutely essential to this discussion. And in this case, the reason why we can say that terms like “good” and “wise” can refer to God when we originally use them about his creation is that his creation is like its creator, and thus we can reach through the creaturely referent to the divine referent in the same way that we can reach through the effect to the cause by virtue of the likeness relationship between them.

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  146. "It [i.e., the Rocca quote] is a summation of the medieval theory of speculative grammar, which Aquinas was referencing with his modus and res terminology."

    Was referencing where? In what passage? Are you sure he was referring to 'the medieval theory of speculative grammar'? It sure doesn't look that way in the passages I've read. (So maybe you'll go back to your claim that, well, anyway, "Aquinas uses many of his terms loosely and inconsistently" -- and around and around we go! However: the fact that terms have different meanings in different contexts does not indicate that the author using those terms uses those terms loosely and inconsistently; it just means that you need to start paying attention to context.)

    "It is called Speaking the Incomprehensible God."

    Thanks. Unfortunately my library doesn't have that one.

    "When he said that the modus significandi is conditioned by the modus intelligendi."

    Why not just say: "Our way of signifying is conditioned by our way of understanding"? To which I'd say, yeah, so what?

    "Our manner of understanding affects our manner of communicating via language."

    That's better. Now, so what? What follows?

    "Sure, it does. In that very quote, Aquinas mentions that “as regards the mode of signifying, every name is with defect”, because “by a name we express the thing in the way in which by the intellect we conceive it.” The only point that I’m hoping that we’ll agree upon is that the mode of signification is how the thing signified is present to the human mind, according to its manner of understanding."

    Sure, and its manner of understanding is by abstraction, by turning to phantasms, while its modes of signifying things are as concrete (quod est) or as abstracted (quo est). What follows?

    "It is precisely because of the various imperfections of human understanding that the mode of signification is defective, especially[?] when the thing signified is a perfection that lacks all defect."

    Why do you think that Aquinas thinks that the modes of signification are defective in themselves (as opposed to specifically in the case God-predication)? And what are these "various imperfections of human understanding" you refer to? (I don't mean in your view; I mean in Aquinas'.) Thomas thinks that the human mode of understanding (modus intelligendi) is 'imperfect' (relative to the angelic or divine modes of understanding) inasmuch as it relies on phantasms, but I can't see what point you might be trying to make relative to that fact.

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  147. But they don’t point to “the same thing”, which was precisely David’s point. That would be like saying that the terms “food” and “shelter” have the same R, because they both point towards that which is necessary for human survival. I would say that “food” and “shelter” actually have different R’s, i.e. R1 and R2

    Of course they have different Rs, considered as terms in themselves, i.e., the meaning of 'food' and the meaning of 'shelter.' But that's not predication according to one term. We're talking about the meaning of one term as applied to 'food' and 'shelter,' and it is this one thing that the two are referred to.

    And the problem with this position is that it transforms analogical predication into equivocal predication, because even the different R’s in equivocal predication have something in common, because everything has something in common.

    And since the two subjects are related to a single common term, my position is untouched by this point. One term with a common reference of a partially different meaning (the senses) predicated of two subjects.

    And the ontological grounding of the commonality which enables us to predicate the term of two subjects may be the principle of causality, or a common genus, etc. I'm not dispelling the commonality at the heart of predication. It's there as the R, like Rocca's "spokes of the wheel" it's at the heart of a bunch of spokes (senses, modus essendi, etc.) meeting in the middle.

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  148. Mr. Green,

    >But I refuse to condone obnoxious behaviour — let alone be implicated in it by inferred silent consent — regardless of who the source is, or what "side" he's on.

    Then where were you when dguller openly lied to me in the last thread?

    Or do you condone liars if they are polite about it?

    You only ever show up to castigate me. I have one Anonymous fan who while not condoning everything I say or do writes to give me some encouragement & you it seems can't tolerate that?

    This is not my blog Green & news for you buddy it's not yours either.

    I appreciate that you champion polite discourse, I really do, but in my experience you are in spite your best intentions rather one sided in that area.

    Obnoxious behavior isn't just limited to mere name calling.

    Misrepresenting your opponent, ignoring his arguments and repeating your nonsense is IMHO rude too.

    Do note I am not the only one here who has a problem with that.

    See David M.

    Peace.

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  149. BTW I don't have time for you lot just now.

    The Hobbit 2 is coming out tonight.

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  150. David M:

    Was referencing where? In what passage? Are you sure he was referring to 'the medieval theory of speculative grammar'? It sure doesn't look that way in the passages I've read. (So maybe you'll go back to your claim that, well, anyway, "Aquinas uses many of his terms loosely and inconsistently" -- and around and around we go! However: the fact that terms have different meanings in different contexts does not indicate that the author using those terms uses those terms loosely and inconsistently; it just means that you need to start paying attention to context.)

    Rocca discusses the historical background of the terms that we have been discussing on pages 336-9. Like I said, Aquinas did not invent these terms, and they have a historical context that supplies their meaning. Even Aquinas’ teacher and mentor, Albert the Great made a distinction between the mode of signification and the thing signified, and so Aquinas probably got these terms and the associated concepts from his intellectual milieu.

    Why not just say: "Our way of signifying is conditioned by our way of understanding"? To which I'd say, yeah, so what?

    I just wanted to make sure that our terms lined up properly.

    Sure, and its manner of understanding is by abstraction, by turning to phantasms, while its modes of signifying things are as concrete (quod est) or as abstracted (quo est). What follows?

    I’m just trying to make sure that we have a mutual understanding of the terminology. The mode of signification is how a thing signified presents itself within human language, which itself depends upon human understanding, because the thing signified is understood by the intellect according to its human structural and functional limitations that are also present in our language.

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  151. Josh:

    Of course they have different Rs, considered as terms in themselves, i.e., the meaning of 'food' and the meaning of 'shelter.' But that's not predication according to one term. We're talking about the meaning of one term as applied to 'food' and 'shelter,' and it is this one thing that the two are referred to.

    But even with predication according to one term, the referents of each term are distinct from one another. Look at the following:

    (1) John is healthy
    (2) Food is healthy

    Here you have the same term, “healthy”, which has two different R’s. The R of “healthy” in (1) is a state of physical equilibrium and well-being and the R of “healthy” in (2) is a cause of a state of physical equilibrium and well-being. X is different from a cause of X, after all. The S’s are different, specifically because the R’s are different. Now, it is clear that what X and a cause of X have in common is X, but that is something that comes up upon further analysis of (1) and (2). In other words, it is implicit, and only becomes explicit when intentionally analyzed further. So, even your own account demands a further sub-analysis to bring out the relevant details.

    And since the two subjects are related to a single common term, my position is untouched by this point. One term with a common reference of a partially different meaning (the senses) predicated of two subjects.

    Again, the problem with this position is that the common terms in analogical predication do not have the same R. X is not the same as the cause of X, as I mentioned above. So, you cannot say that in analogical predication, there is the same R at all, which means that there must be different R’s, and that is precisely the definition of equivocal predication. Furthermore, the only way that you can say that they have the same R is to shift the level of analysis from the individual R’s of the terms themselves to what the individual R’s have in common. And again, that means that you have shifted the level of analysis into a deeper mode to bring out the relevant commonalities.

    And the ontological grounding of the commonality which enables us to predicate the term of two subjects may be the principle of causality, or a common genus, etc. I'm not dispelling the commonality at the heart of predication. It's there as the R, like Rocca's "spokes of the wheel" it's at the heart of a bunch of spokes (senses, modus essendi, etc.) meeting in the middle.

    But again, when you are talking about the spokes, you may be implicitly referring to the wheel, but that is not what you are explicitly talking about. Otherwise, you would have to say that X and the cause of X are the same R, which is absurd.

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  152. @dguller:

    I think you're confusing yourself with all this talk of "reference." What Aquinas is interested in is how it's possible for one term to be predicated of more than one thing or subject.[*]

    The term is what is being predicated, and the subject is what it's being predicated of. If you insist on using the word "reference," at least be sure not to confuse these two.

    With that in mind, let's have another look at your example.

    (1) John is healthy.
    (2) Food is healthy.

    What is being predicated is "health," and it's being predicated of both John and food. Health—a condition of physical/bodily well-being—has the same meaning in each instance. This is not "implicit" and it requires no "analysis" to bring it to light.

    What is "implicit"—that is, unstated but intended—is that health is not being attributed to the two subjects in quite the same way: John is being said to be in that condition, whereas food is being said to cause that condition (and thus to "contain" it in whatever sense causes contain their effects).

    The two uses of "healthy" do not have different "references" in one of the two senses I mentioned above, namely the one having to do with the meaning of the term. "Health" has the same meaning in each instance. But they do have different "references" in the other sense, because they "refer" respectively to the "healthiness" of (the particular) John and the "healthiness" of (the different particular) food, and thus of the ways in which "health" is present in each of the two subjects.

    And this gets us exactly nowhere in distinguishing between univocal, analogical, and equivocal predication, as it's just as true in the univocal case, e.g.

    (1) John is healthy.
    (2) Mary is healthy.

    And for the same reason, it doesn't ground a criticism of analogical predication. Or so it seems to me.

    ----

    [*] Please note once again that unless a term is predicated of more than one subject, questions about univocity et al. simply don't arise. Each type of predication involves multiple subjects.

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  153. Correction: they "refer" respectively to the "healthiness" of (the particular) John and the "healthiness" of (the different particular) food, and thus to the ways in which "health" is present in each of the two subjects.

    At any rate, my main point (to put it as clearly as I can) is that you're taking "being a cause of health" to be part of the "reference" in the sense of the meaning of the term (in one case) when it's actually part of the "reference" in the sense of the way the quality meant by the term is present in a particular object.

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  154. I honestly don't think we can go any further. For some reason, there's a divide here that I lack the rhetorical tools to effectively cross. I'll do this last bit and you can roll on with the others, because I think they want to pursue a different tack. It's been good, though!

    Here you have the same term, “healthy”, which has two different R’s. The R of “healthy” in (1) is a state of physical equilibrium and well-being and the R of “healthy” in (2) is a cause of a state of physical equilibrium and well-being. X is different from a cause of X, after all.

    I can explicate your example correctly according to my schema, using the words you provided. Healthy predicated of those two subjects according to the one term, 'healthy', refers (common R) to health (state of well-being, etc.), and in one subject this means cause of the state (S1) and in the other the state itself in a physical being (S2). I see no need for anything else; and everything's accounted for. That covers it.

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  155. Brandon:

    This gets it backwards; genuine naming presupposes understanding, not vice versa. The point of the doctrine of analogy is merely to identify a fact about terms, namely, that they can be predicated in ways that are neither univocal nor equivocal; it so happens that the way we can get some understanding of God, by recognizing him as primary cause, is a way that makes it possible to predicate analogically of God and creatures. Take the prior example: Socrates's wisdom is a qualified derivation from unqualified underived wisdom itself. But what Socrates's derivative wisdom and God's primary wisdom have in common is that God's primary wisdom is primary wisdom and that Socrates's derived wisdom by its nature is ordered or proportioned to primary wisdom. But we can't generalize this kind of relation to all cases of analogy; that you are predicating analogically on its own tells you nothing about the ordering between analogates (beyond the fact that there is some such ordering).

    But, again, you can’t minimize the ontological underpinnings of the semantic theory of analogical predication. The underlying ontology is one of the Neoplatonic metaphysics of participatory efficienct causality in which all effects resemble or are like their causes. It is precisely this ontological framework that justifies and grounds the analogical predication itself. To me, and I’ve never read a compelling alternative, but that might just be my limited exposure to the subject, to say that X is like Y means that X and Y have something in common. To say that X and Y have something in common means that what is common is present to both X and Y, even if it is present in different modes of being. For example, the thought about a dog and a material dog have the form of dogness in common. The form of dogness is present in both the thought and the material dog, but in an immaterial mode of being in the former and in a material mode of being in the latter.

    Now, let’s focus upon your example of Socrates’ wisdom and God’s wisdom. I agree with you that the former is participated, finite and imperfect wisdom and the latter is unparticipated, infinite and perfect wisdom. But that just means that wisdom exists in two distinct modes of being, much like the form of dogness exists in two distinct modes of being (i.e. immaterial and material). And the only way that we can know anything about God’s wisdom is because we know something about human wisdom, which is caused by God’s wisdom, and thus must be like God’s wisdom. And just as we can talk about the form of dogness independent of its particular mode of being, I don’t see why we cannot also talk about wisdom, independent of its mode of being, i.e. independent of whether it is unparticipated or participated, infinite or finite, and perfect or imperfect. And it is precisely this wisdom that is present to both God and Socrates, and it is precisely this wisdom that grounds and justifies the likeness between the two as derived from their causal relationship. And when we talk about wisdom, then why can’t we do so in a fashion that has the same underlying (non-Fregean) referent, or res, and the same (non-Fregean) sense, or modus?

    This is where I get stuck.

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  156. Exactly. Notice that we are talking about meanings (ways of predicating or naming) being present in meanings; our use of a term in one case can be done in such a way that it has reference/ordering/proportion to another such use. As I said before, what has to be in common in analogy has to be something common to the predicating or naming. And what is common is the primary analogate -- or to use the prior example, wise(a) is what is common to wise(a) and wise(b), because wise(b) has a proportion or reference to wise(a). So your suggested wise(c) seems not to add anything.

    But wise(a) has a different mode of being than wise(a), and thus there must be something in common between them, independent of their different modes of being, which I take to be wise(c).

    But the relation between statements and ontological underpinnings is more distant than that between predications or names and ontological underpinnings, because, again, statements presuppose predications or names. Analogy pertains to the latter.

    Analogy in language is how we talk about analogy in being. They must parallel one another, I think, or else there is a radical disconnect that compromises the entire reason for Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy at all, i.e. to have positive knowledge of some kind about God himself.

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  157. We have established I think dguller is a jerk & I am not alone here.

    Now that having been said I would like to see Brandon's response to dguller on analogy without further interruption.

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  158. Scott:

    What is being predicated is "health," and it's being predicated of both John and food. Health—a condition of physical/bodily well-being—has the same meaning in each instance. This is not "implicit" and it requires no "analysis" to bring it to light.

    What is "implicit"—that is, unstated but intended—is that health is not being attributed to the two subjects in quite the same way: John is being said to be in that condition, whereas food is being said to cause that condition (and thus to "contain" it in whatever sense causes contain their effects).


    Agreed. You have the following:

    (1) X is “P” = X is in a state of P
    (2) Y is “P” = X is a cause of P

    P must be present in both X and Y, but it is present in different modes of being. In X, P exists as an actual state, and in Y, P exists as a virtual cause. Furthermore, I agree that the P that is present in X and Y is the same P in the sense of formal identity, but it is instantiated in different ways, which is similar to how the form F is present in both X and Y, albeit in different modes of being.

    The two uses of "healthy" do not have different "references" in one of the two senses I mentioned above, namely the one having to do with the meaning of the term. "Health" has the same meaning in each instance. But they do have different "references" in the other sense, because they "refer" respectively to the "healthiness" of (the particular) John and the "healthiness" of (the different particular) food, and thus of the ways in which "health" is present in each of the two subjects.

    I disagree, but only to a small extent. “Healthy” in one sense refers to the state of health, and “healthy” in another sense refers to a cause of health. A state of X is not the same as a cause of X, and so they cannot have the same referent. They are different. Now, they do share something in common, i.e. “health”, which exists in different modes of being in each, and “health” remains the same throughout, and the term “health” retains the same meaning, as well. But I agree with you that “healthy” also refers to different subjects in which “health” is present.

    And for the same reason, it doesn't ground a criticism of analogical predication. Or so it seems to me.

    My criticism of analogical predication is very simple. If the analogates have something in common, which they must have in order to be similar to one another at all, then we should be able to meaningfully talk about this “something in common”. Yes, this “something in common” will have to be abstracted and stripped of the different modes of being that it exists as, as well as other individuating factors – much like the intellect abstracts the particularizing features associated with a form in a concrete being – but once this is done, then I don’t see why this “something in common” couldn’t have the same term, the same sense and the same referent, which would be the definition of univocal predication. See how we talked about “health” above? Same term, same sense and same referent. And the problem here is that there are compelling theological reasons why this must be impossible (see SCG 1.32, for example, for some reasons).

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  159. One drive by on analogy then we should leave it to Brandon.

    >If the analogates have something in common, which they must have in order to be similar to one another at all, then we should be able to meaningfully talk about this “something in common”.

    No we don't we just have to recognize logically that they must exist.

    We don't actually have to know what they are & in the case of God compared analogically to a universal or perfection we don't have conclude they must be unequivocal Being.

    From God to us there is nothing we have in common.

    From Us to God there is "something" what that something is we need not know. We can only logically conclude it's brute fact.

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  160. Josh:

    I honestly don't think we can go any further. For some reason, there's a divide here that I lack the rhetorical tools to effectively cross. I'll do this last bit and you can roll on with the others, because I think they want to pursue a different tack. It's been good, though!

    I truly appreciate your contributions. They are always helpful in terms of clarifying my understanding of the issues involved.

    I can explicate your example correctly according to my schema, using the words you provided. Healthy predicated of those two subjects according to the one term, 'healthy', refers (common R) to health (state of well-being, etc.), and in one subject this means cause of the state (S1) and in the other the state itself in a physical being (S2). I see no need for anything else; and everything's accounted for. That covers it.

    I don’t see anything wrong with that. Again, I like Brandon’s idea of distinguishing between the individual R’s and the common R. The individual R’s are the common R plus its particular mode of being. If you call the different modes of being, M1 and M2, then you have R + M1 and R + M2. The former is different from the latter, even though they both share R in common. So, if you are talking about R + M1 and R + M2, then they are different referents, but if you are talking about R, then it is the same referent.

    But to return to my criticism of analogical predication, when we talk about the common R, then do we do so with the same term, sense and referent? And if we do, then isn’t this exactly univocal predication?

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  161. How can X have something in common with Y, but Y not have something in common with X? This is like saying that X is an effect of Y, but Y is not a cause of X. They are just two ways of saying the same thing.

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  162. Is it me or does dguller really believe here "no unequivocal comparison between God and Creatures" really means absolutely no literal comparison of any kind & on any level between God & creatures?

    Usually his misunderstanding flow from a simple mistake.

    I wait with baited breath to see what Brandon says.

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  163. If there is no comparison between God and creatures, then how can they be said to have something in common? That very commonality would be a point of comparison between them. If you really mean that there is no comparison between God and creatures, then it follows that God and creatures have nothing in common, and then how can you say that creation is like God at all? And without this likeness between creation and God, you cannot have any positive knowledge of God at all, including analogical knowledge. All you are left with is an extreme version of negative theology, much like Maimonides', which Aquinas specifically rejected.

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  164. So, in order for there to be a likeness between creation and God, there must be something that creation and God have in common, and if creation has something in common with God, then God must have something in common with creation.

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  165. @dguller:

    "I disagree, but only to a small extent. 'Healthy' in one sense refers to the state of health, and 'healthy' in another sense refers to a cause of health. A state of X is not the same as a cause of X, and so they cannot have the same referent."

    And I agree, as long as by "referent" you mean the thing or subject of which the term "health(y)" is being predicated. For that matter, John's state of health is not the same thing as Mary's state of health, and so even in the univocal case the terms are being predicated of two different things, objects, particulars, or "referents."

    The problem arises when you slip that sort of "referent" into the term itself (or its meaning). The term that is being predicated of John, Mary, and food is health(iness), in whatever manner it may be present.

    In your earlier reply to Josh you were distinguishing carefully, or so it seemed to me, between the "referent" R and the "subject" S, with the former being something like the meaning of the predicated term. And here you're taking something that seems to me to belong to S (being present as a state vs. being present as the effect of a cause) and folding it instead into R (the meaning of the term "health(y)"). The fact that health is present in one way in John (and Mary) and in another way in food doesn't mean that the term being predicated of those subjects is different.

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  166. @dguller:

    "If the analogates have something in common, which they must have in order to be similar to one another at all, then we should be able to meaningfully talk about this 'something in common'. Yes, this 'something in common' will have to be abstracted and stripped of the different modes of being that it exists as, as well as other individuating factors – much like the intellect abstracts the particularizing features associated with a form in a concrete being – but once this is done, then I don't see why this 'something in common' couldn't have the same term, the same sense and the same referent, which would be the definition of univocal predication. See how we talked about 'health' above? Same term, same sense and same referent."

    But that isn't "the definition of univocal predication."

    First, if by "referent" you mean the subject of which the term is being predicated, then it doesn't have the same "referent" when predicated of two different subjects. In this sense the "referents" are the multiple particular subjects (John, Mary, and food) of which the term ("health(y)") may be predicated, and calling the term "univocal," "analogical," or "equivocal" is itself an acknowledgement that there is more than one such "referent." (A term that could be predicated of only one subject couldn't be any of those.)

    And once that's acknowledged, I see no reason not to acknowledge further that the quality signified by the term may be present in different ways in different subjects. The "definition of univocal predication" is not that the meaning of the term itself is the same across the subjects; that happens in the analogical case as well, as we've already seen with "health."

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  167. Scott:

    And I agree, as long as by "referent" you mean the thing or subject of which the term "health(y)" is being predicated. For that matter, John's state of health is not the same thing as Mary's state of health, and so even in the univocal case the terms are being predicated of two different things, objects, particulars, or "referents."

    I’m talking about something a little different. There is a difference between the following:

    (1) X is “P” = X is in the state of P
    (2) Y is “P” = X is a cause of the state of P

    The state of P is not the same as a cause of the state of P, and thus the terms being predicated of X and Y – i.e. “P” – refer to different referents. Additionally, they refer to different subjects as possessing the predicates themselves. But what they share in common is the presence of P, albeit in different modes of being, i.e. as a state in X and as a cause of a state in Y.

    The problem arises when you slip that sort of "referent" into the term itself (or its meaning). The term that is being predicated of John, Mary, and food is health(iness), in whatever manner it may be present.

    And here is where we disagree. I think that the term, “healthy”, refers to health-in-a-particular-mode-of-being-as-possessed-by-a-subject. What remains the same is “health”, but what changes is the mode of being of health and the subject that possesses health-in-a-particular-mode-of-being. If you are referring to “health”, then the referent remains the same. If you are referring to the subjects, then the referent is different. If you are referring to the different modes of being of health, then the referent is different.

    The fact that health is present in one way in John (and Mary) and in another way in food doesn't mean that the term being predicated of those subjects is different.

    Right. The term is the same, i.e. “healthy”, but what the term means and what the term refers to could be the same (i.e. the common core, i.e. “health”) or different (i.e. different subjects, different modes of being of “health”), depending upon what you are focusing upon. Or at least so it seems to me.

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  168. But to return to my criticism of analogical predication, when we talk about the common R, then do we do so with the same term, sense and referent? And if we do, then isn’t this exactly univocal predication?
    Isn't R just a pure abstraction at this point? R has to be predicated of something before it could be considered as an analogical, equivical, or univocal use of the term. At this point you have to have (R + M1) and (R + M2). I don't see how you can abstract it out, and then refer to it as analogical, equivical, or univocal.


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  169. @dguller:

    "But to return to my criticism of analogical predication, when we talk about the common R, then do we do so with the same term, sense and referent? And if we do, then isn't this exactly univocal predication?"

    "Talking about the common R" in the way that you mean here is not predicating R of any subject at all, let alone more than one. I think you need to distinguish carefully between (a) predicating R of multiple subjects/particulars and (b) predicating something of R itself.

    When we abstract a common R from the cases of John's healthiness, Mary's healthiness, and food's healthiness, and we identify the real quality or qualities that we mean by the word "healthy," the subject of our predication is presumably one or more of these: (a) the universal "healthiness," (b) our concept of it, (c) the word(s) by which we refer to it. This predication is a different predication from predicating "health(iness)" of a subject.

    Confusing those two is what leads you into the problem I've been trying to explain. Even though the term itself may be the same across all the predications, that doesn't entail that the quality intended by the term is present in the same mode (or degree) in all the subjects of which it's predicated.

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  170. @dguller:

    "And here is where we disagree. I think that the term, 'healthy', refers to health-in-a-particular-mode-of-being-as-possessed-by-a-subject. What remains the same is 'health', but what changes is the mode of being of health and the subject that possesses health-in-a-particular-mode-of-being. If you are referring to 'health', then the referent remains the same. If you are referring to the subjects, then the referent is different. If you are referring to the different modes of being of health, then the referent is different."

    This exemplifies why I say you're confusing yourself with all this talk of "referring." What's at issue here is predication. "Referring" to health simply by using the word "health(y)" is not, in and of itself, to predicate "health" of anything at all.

    When we consider predicating "health" in turn of John, Mary, and food, we see that "health" is not present in the same mode in food as it is in John and Mary, and that therefore the modes of predication are different even though the term is the same. That's Aquinas's point.

    It makes not a lick of difference to this point if there are other ways of using the word "health(y)" to "refer" to this or that and whether the meaning changes subtly when we do so. That simply isn't the issue here, and talking about "referring," so far as I can see, merely obscures what is at issue.

    You seem to be arguing that the terms themselves are in fact not the same when we predicate "health(iness)" of John and food. But I don't see why not, and your argument to that effect seems to rest on the confusion I've been trying to explicate in my last few posts.

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  171. @Steve:

    "R has to be predicated of something before it could be considered as an analogical, [equivocal], or univocal use of the term."

    Yes, exactly. And in fact it must be predicated (or at least predicable) of more than one something before any of those terms come into play.

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  172. Scott:

    "Talking about the common R" in the way that you mean here is not predicating R of any subject at all, let alone more than one. I think you need to distinguish carefully between (a) predicating R of multiple subjects/particulars and (b) predicating something of R itself.

    I believe that I am doing (a), and not (b). In the case of the common R, R is present in both subjects, albeit in different modes of being.

    When we abstract a common R from the cases of John's healthiness, Mary's healthiness, and food's healthiness, and we identify the real quality or qualities that we mean by the word "healthy," the subject of our predication is presumably one or more of these: (a) the universal "healthiness," (b) our concept of it, (c) the word(s) by which we refer to it. This predication is a different predication from predicating "health(iness)" of a subject.

    I am talking about (a), i.e. the common R that is present in all the different subjects.. This would be analogous to formal identity and numerical distinction.

    Confusing those two is what leads you into the problem I've been trying to explain. Even though the term itself may be the same across all the predications, that doesn't entail that the quality intended by the term is present in the same mode (or degree) in all the subjects of which it's predicated.

    I agree that it is not present in the same mode, but it is still the same quality (or whatever) that is present. So, you have the common R, the different modes of being M1 and M2, and the different subjects S1 and S2, and thus you have:

    (1) R-as-M1-in-S1
    (2) R-as-M2-in-S2

    In reality, R can only exist as R-as-M-in-S, much like a form can only exist as F-as-M-in-S. But, if we can abstract F from F-as-M-in-S in such a way that the formally identical F can be talked about being present in S1 and S2, then I don’t see why we can’t do the same for R. And if we can do this, then I also don’t see why when we talk about the same R present in S1 and S2, which is predicating R of S1 and S2, our language is not univocal in the sense of having the same sense and referent.

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  173. Steve:

    Isn't R just a pure abstraction at this point? R has to be predicated of something before it could be considered as an analogical, equivical, or univocal use of the term. At this point you have to have (R + M1) and (R + M2). I don't see how you can abstract it out, and then refer to it as analogical, equivical, or univocal.

    R is predicated of something. R is present in the subjects, but in different modes of being. If we can univocally say that the form of humanity is present in John and Peter, then why can’t we univocally say that a common R is present in X and Y?

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  174. Just popping back, thanks Scott for picking up; and yes, I enjoy our discussions Dguller--just wanted to clarify how I had been loosely using the terms throughout, because I agree the many understandings of referent, sense, etc. have probably added to confusion:

    Subjects-that of which the common term is predicated (John and Mary, in the latest examples)

    R/referent/thing signified by the term (that which is common between the two subjects, what brings sameness to analogical predications, 'health' in 'healthy,' etc.)

    S/senses/modus (way in which health appears; what brings difference to analogical predications, 'cause of' in one subject, 'state/indicator of' in the other)

    Hopefully that clears up any misunderstanding caused by my playing fast and loose with loaded terms.

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  175. Gullerrr! This really just happened?

    guller:
    "It [i.e., the Rocca quote] is a summation of the medieval theory of speculative grammar, which Aquinas was referencing with his modus and res terminology."

    me:
    Was referencing where? [Here I am plainly referring to the claim about Aquinas, above.] In what passage? Are you sure he [Aquinas]was referring to 'the medieval theory of speculative grammar'? It sure doesn't look that way in the passages [of Aquinas] I've read. (So maybe you'll go back to your claim that, well, anyway, "Aquinas uses many of his terms loosely and inconsistently" -- and around and around we go! However: the fact that terms have different meanings in different contexts does not indicate that the author using those terms uses those terms loosely and inconsistently; it just means that you need to start paying attention to context.)

    guller:
    Rocca discusses the historical background of the terms that we have been discussing on pages 336-9. Like I said, Aquinas did not invent these terms, and they have a historical context that supplies their meaning. Even Aquinas’ teacher and mentor, Albert the Great made a distinction between the mode of signification and the thing signified, and so Aquinas probably got these terms and the associated concepts from his intellectual milieu.

    ...OKAY! So I ask guller a straightforward question and emphasize to him the importance of paying attention to context. He responds by completely IGNORING the context of my question (which read in context was CLEARLY about where AQUINAS references 'the medieval theory of speculative grammar') and making a pedantic and irrelevant comment about St. Albert. If anyone reading fails to see anything "stupid or perverse" about this manner of arguing, you're not looking hard enough.

    Anyway, guller, my man, I have no desire to think of you as an "ignorant combox moron," as you put it, so please just answer the question if you can, and if you can't just admit that you can't. And seriously: you need to pay more attention to context!

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  176. >if creation has something in common with God, then God must have something in common with creation.

    That doesn't logically follow.

    A statue of George may be like George but George isn't really like his statue.

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  177. The Statue of George reflects George but George is not a reflection of his statue.

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  178. My image in a mirror is a reflection of me but I myself am not a reflection of the mirror or my image in the mirror.

    My reflection is like me but I am not like my reflection.

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  179. R is present in the subjects, but in different modes of being. If we can univocally say that the form of humanity is present in John and Peter, then why can’t we univocally say that a common R is present in X and Y?

    R is an intrinsic attribute for one, and an extrinsic attribute for the other, so R is not an entirely same kind of thing with respect to one as it is with respect to the other. This means that when I say "God is good" I mean something different (but not entirely different) than when I say "dguller is good". The context, or mode of being, actually affects the meaning when "good" is predicated of each.

    I haven't read this entire thread, so I apologize if I'm just rehashing previous comments.


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  180. Ben:

    You are like your reflection in that you both have the same physical appearance. I never understood why Aquinas said that an image is like an archetype, but an archetype is not like an image. If they share something in common, then they are both mutually like one another.

    This only makes sense if you believe that all likeness is causal, meaning that X is like Y is coextensive with X is an effect of Y. In other words, the only way for X to be like Y is if X is an effect of Y. But this entirely ignores the central point of likeness, which is commonality. If X and Y have something in common, then X is like Y, and vice versa. And the only reason that causality causes likeness is that the cause gives something of itself to the effect. This commonality is what grounds the likeness, not the causality itself.

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  181. @dguller:

    "In reality, R can only exist as R-as-M-in-S, much like a form can only exist as F-as-M-in-S. But, if we can abstract F from F-as-M-in-S in such a way that the formally identical F can be talked about being present in S1 and S2, then I don't see why we can't do the same for R."

    I don't either. A formally identical health(iness) is present in John, Mary, and food.

    "And if we can do this, then I also don't see why when we talk about the same R present in S1 and S2, which is predicating R of S1 and S2, our language is not univocal in the sense of having the same sense and referent."

    Because it's not sufficient for univocity of predication that the health(iness) we predicate of John, Mary, and food be formally identical between the subjects. We're not predicating it of all three in the same way.

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  182. Josh:

    Subjects-that of which the common term is predicated (John and Mary, in the latest examples)

    R/referent/thing signified by the term (that which is common between the two subjects, what brings sameness to analogical predications, 'health' in 'healthy,' etc.)

    S/senses/modus (way in which health appears; what brings difference to analogical predications, 'cause of' in one subject, 'state/indicator of' in the other)


    On a first pass, that is extraordinarily clarifying for me, and resolves most, if not all, of my concerns. So, the meaning of the common terms predicated of different subjects necessarily involves both an R and the way in which R presents itself (i.e. your S). When the common terms have the same R, and the same S of that same R, then you have univocal predication. When the common terms have different R’s, then you have equivocal predication. (This opens the possibility of different R’s having the same S. For example, if R1 is “sunshine” and R2 is “health”, then S can be “the cause of”, which would be the same in both.) When the common terms have the same common R, but different S’s of that same R, then you have analogical predication.

    My only quibble would be that Aquinas says that analogical predication is a kind of equivocal predication. He occasionally uses the term “equivocal” when he is talking about “analogical”. According to your account, analogical predication would actually be closer to univocal predication, because they both have the same R, and the only relevant difference is whether the S’s are the same or not. With equivocal predication, all that matters is that the R’s are different. The S’s seem to be completely irrelevant.

    I’ll reflect on it more over the weekend, and see if there’s anything else I have to say, but as far as I can tell, my criticism has been fully addressed.

    Thank you for your help in clearing up my confusions, and thanks to everyone else for your efforts.

    Since my problem has seemingly been solved, I will bow out of this discussion at this time.

    Take care, gents!

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  183. @dguller:

    "I agree that it is not present in the same mode, but it is still the same quality (or whatever) that is present."

    Then in Josh's terms (thanks, Josh) it's not present in the same "sense" either.

    At any rate, if you agree that it isn't present in the same mode, then I don't see the problem. You may recognize the following Aquinas quotation from earlier in the thread well enough to fill in the blank without peeking: "And sometimes it is predicated of them according to meanings which are partly different and partly not (different inasmuch as they imply different relationships, and the same inasmuch as these different relationships are referred to one and the same thing), and then it is said 'to be predicated ________ly.'"

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  184. @dguller:

    Sorry, I didn't see your latest post as I was posting mine.

    "When the common terms have the same common R, but different S's of that same R, then you have analogical predication."

    Yes, I think that's the key point. What Josh means by those "senses" and S's are the modes in which your "common R" is present in the various subjects, and it's when those modes differ between the subjects of which a term is predicated that we say the term is predicated analogously.

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  185. >You are like your reflection in that you both have the same physical appearance.

    We have that common referent but it is still only one way. The reflection reflect me I am not a reflection if it.

    God has Will thus volition. God knows so God has intellect.

    Both God & I have volition and knowing in common but not in the same way.

    I reflect Him but he is not a reflection of me.

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  186. I am a man an individual instantiation of the essence humanity. I have the substance of a man.

    My reflection is none of these things and is merely photons bouncing off a reflective surface to create a 2D pattern that resembles my individual archetype.

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  187. @dguller:

    "This opens the possibility of different R's having the same S. For example, if R1 is 'sunshine' and R2 is 'health', then S can be 'the cause of', which would be the same in both."

    True, but that won't be relevant unless the same word is used for the two Rs; otherwise the issue of predicating the same term of more than one subject doesn't arise.

    That can happen, of course, but I have trouble thinking of examples that don't sound ludicrously artificial. We might, for example, say that each of two actions is "sanctioned," in one case meaning "approved" and the other meaning "forbidden" (by the same authority, so that presumably the causal relationships remain the same). But I think that would be a clear case of equivocal predication.

    "I'll reflect on it more over the weekend[.]"

    Then that will be your reflection, but you won't be its. ;-)

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  188. Great Scott!

    Did you just end the dguller commenting takeover?

    (No offense meant to you dguller, you really had questions you wanted answered; it's just that it took nigh 1000 comments to answer one of your relatively basic questions about a fairly obscure topic, and it's hard to get any other commenting done while that is going on)

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  189. Ben:

    We have that common referent but it is still only one way. The reflection reflect me I am not a reflection if it.

    I never said that the archetype was identical to the image. That would mean that they share everything in common. Similarly only requires that they share something in common.

    I reflect Him but he is not a reflection of me.

    Of course, but that is irrelevant to my point, which is that if A and B have something in common, then A is similar to B and B is similar to A. After all, to say that A is similar to B just means that A has X and B has X, where X is what they share in common. So, the fact that you can point out ways in which A and B are different does not change my fundamental point, which is that they must have something in common.

    And then the issue is how God and creation can have anything in common.

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  190. @Timotheos:

    "Great Scott!

    Did you just end the dguller commenting takeover?"

    Heh, I'm not sure whether that's addressed to me or not, but at any rate most of the credit goes to Josh—especially for his clarification of his terms, which finally brought home a point we'd been making in common for some time.

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  191. (And of course a different sort of credit goes to dguller, for understanding and acknowledging the point.)

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  192. Josh:

    Just one clarifying thought, which does not substantively change what you wrote.

    You mentioned that analogical predication occurs when there are different modes of the common referent. The problem when this is applied to God and his perfections is that when it comes to God, “there cannot be a mode of perfection, nor is one thinkable, by which a given perfection is possessed more fully than it is possessed by the being that is perfect through its essence and whose being is its goodness” (SCG 1.43.9).

    As Rocca writes: “God’s modeless infinity is perhaps the primary truth of Thomas’ qualitative negative theology since it denies of God that which is at the root of the creature’s creaturehood – limitation, determination, finitude, mode … God’s modelessness and the ‘moded’ or limited way in which creatures possess their perfections are the basis for Thomas’ rejection of the modus significandi of God” (Ibid., p. 342).

    So, it is not that there are different modes, but rather there is a mode in the creaturely expression of the common referent, and there is no mode in the common referent itself, which is the perfection in question. Perhaps you can say that there is the creaturely mode and the divine mode of modelessness.

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  193. So, it is not that there are different modes, but rather there is a mode in the creaturely expression of the common referent, and there is no mode in the common referent itself, which is the perfection in question. Perhaps you can say that there is the creaturely mode and the divine mode of modelessness.

    You're right to bring that up, and I'd be lying if I said I had good answers for you. I think, from a prima facie reading of those snippets, that I'd be inclined to say that the apophatic "mode" we use as a sort of counterpoint to something like:

    Socrates is wise
    God is wise

    Where we've previously established that wisdom exists preeminently (there are two other terms that usually go with that one, I can't remember) in God, along with an understanding that it's finite in us and not in Him, etc. would seem to be enough to understand that what we're predicating of God will be analogical ipso facto. This of course doesn't imply any positive "mode" that we can say "God exists in such and such a mode"; but the only condition we need to satisfy to know we're predicating analogically is that there's an irreducible difference between the two, creature and God. And I think that's fairly established, in terms of "mode" as we've been using the term.

    Secondly, Brandon's points about analogies to God are really more germane than mine, about proportions to nature; at least, that's the way I've seen it in my books. So what's grounding the analogy of wisdom between God and man is proportion of Wisdom received proper to each subject's nature, or somesuch.

    But that's why I said over on my personal post that the historical controversies begin among the Thomists on these points you just brought up in your last post, and not the basic sort of semantic theories that lay the foundation. And I certainly don't have any inspired answers on those points, but it'd be interesting to think about.

    Lastly, I want to note that Dguller hasn't really been wrong throughout all this, in the sense that yes, analogy is about finding a commonality realized in different ways. It's just about finding an adequate précis of an abstruse topic. Part of the problem, imho, is that all the relevant Thomist texts about analogy (in my reading) either just repeat/summarize Aquinas, or they are technical pieces about application to God.

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  194. So wait, I must of missed something: Josh can you try to explain to me what happened in this thread?

    Part of me is hoping for an 'I thought as much' moment, but it seems things may have gotten way more complicated after my summary.

    Thanks

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  195. Josh:

    Secondly, Brandon's points about analogies to God are really more germane than mine, about proportions to nature; at least, that's the way I've seen it in my books. So what's grounding the analogy of wisdom between God and man is proportion of Wisdom received proper to each subject's nature, or somesuch.

    Well, that brings up a whole other issue that I struggle to understand. If God is his wisdom by divine simplicity, then how can his wisdom ever be present in a creature at all? To say that it is a limited kind of wisdom implies that there is something beyond the limit that is not present within the creature. But that would mean that part of divine wisdom is present in the creature, while another part of divine wisdom is absent from the creature. And that seems to imply a kind of composition in divine wisdom, which is equivalent to composition in the divine essence, which is divine wisdom itself.

    So, it seems that either the entirety of divine wisdom is present in a creature, or none of divine wisdom is present in a creature. I don’t see how there can be an intermediary without implying composition in God.

    Any thoughts?

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  196. @ Scott

    “Heh, I'm not sure whether that's addressed to me or not, but at any rate most of the credit goes to Josh”

    Josh did do a lot of the heavy lifting, so he deserves credit too. But do you know how long I’ve been waiting to use that “Great Scott!” joke?

    (I guess you could say I was just joshing with you…)

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  197. It seems many people have been satisfied here, so it's a little embarrassing to continue to be the gadfly; however...

    Scott wrote: "A formally identical health(iness) is present in John, Mary, and food."

    Sorry to get skittish about creative reconstructions of stuff Aquinas may or may not have said/believed, but two questions:
    1) What does that mean? ('present in' would seem to suggest that you're talking about a real accident, in which case the statement sounds like pure nonsense)
    2) Can anyone give me a text of Aquinas that would justify this claim and this language, or in which we can find confirmation of whatever is meant by this claim?

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  198. @Timotheos:

    "I guess you could say I was just joshing with you…"

    Heh. yes, I guess you could.

    @David M:

    Something along these lines came up recently in another thread and rank sophist provided some relevant texts from Aquinas. Sorry I don't have them at hand, but if you can't find them yourself, post again and I'll have a look.

    At any rate, I'm a bit more Platonistic on this subject than Aquinas perhaps was, and if it turns out I was merely expressing my own view rather than his, I won't be too bothered.

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  199. guller wrote:

    guller wrote:
    "You mentioned that analogical predication occurs when there are different modes of the common referent. The problem when this is applied to God and his perfections is that when it comes to God, “there cannot be a mode of perfection, nor is one thinkable, by which a given perfection is possessed more fully than it is possessed by the being that is perfect through its essence and whose being is its goodness” (SCG 1.43.9).

    As Rocca writes: “God’s modeless infinity is perhaps the primary truth of Thomas’ qualitative negative theology since it denies of God that which is at the root of the creature’s creaturehood – limitation, determination, finitude, mode … God’s modelessness and the ‘moded’ or limited way in which creatures possess their perfections are the basis for Thomas’ rejection of the modus significandi of God” (Ibid., p. 342).

    So, it is not that there are different modes, but rather there is a mode in the creaturely expression of the common referent, and there is no mode in the common referent itself, which is the perfection in question. Perhaps you can say that there is the creaturely mode and the divine mode of modelessness. "


    So to summarize: Aquinas talks about the impossibility of a mode of perfection that is 'fuller' than God's mode of perfection. Rocca makes a claim about the modelessness of God. guller ignores the Aquinas text and runs with the Rocca (and Josh follows right after him).

    Any thoughts?

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