Sunday, September 1, 2024

The problem with the “hard problem”

Robert Lawrence Kuhn is well-known as the creator and host of the public television series Closer to Truth, an invaluable source of interviews with major contributors to a variety of contemporary debates in philosophy, theology, and science.  (Longtime readers will recall an exchange Kuhn and I had at First Things some years back on the question of why there is something rather than nothing, which you can find here, here, and here.)  Recently, Kuhn’s article “A landscape of consciousness: Toward a taxonomy of explanations and implications”    appeared in the journal Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology.  It is an impressively exhaustive survey of the field, and will be extremely helpful to anyone looking for guidance through its enormous and often bewildering literature.  Kuhn kindly includes a section on my own contributions to the subject.

The “hard problem”

Whether by design or not, the article marks the thirtieth anniversary since David Chalmers introduced the phrase “hard problem of consciousness” to label what has in recent analytic philosophy of mind become a focus of obsessive attention.  Introducing the problem, Kuhn notes:

Key indeed are qualia, our internal, phenomenological, felt experience – the sight of your newborn daughter, bundled up; the sound of Mahler's Second Symphony, fifth movement, choral finale; the smell of garlic, cooking in olive oil.  Qualia – the felt qualities of inner experience – are the crux of the mind-body problem.

Chalmers describes qualia as “the raw sensations of experience.”  He says, “I see colors – reds, greens, blues – and they feel a certain way to me.  I see a red rose; I hear a clarinet; I smell mothballs.  All of these feel a certain way to me.  You must experience them to know what they're like.  You could provide a perfect, complete map of my brain [down to elementary particles] – what's going on when I see, hear, smell – but if I haven't seen, heard, smelled for myself, that brain map is not going to tell me about the quality of seeing red, hearing a clarinet, smelling mothballs.  You must experience it.”

Those last two sentences indicate why qualia are regarded by so many contemporary philosophers as problematic.  The problem has to do with the metaphysical gap that seems to exist between physical facts on the one hand (including facts about the brain) and facts about conscious experience on the other (especially facts about qualia).

The nature and reality of this gap has been spelled out in various ways.  Consider Chalmers’ famous “zombie argument.”  It is possible at least in principle, he says, for there to be a world physically identical to our own down to the last particle, but where there are none of the qualia of conscious experience.  Thus, in this imagined world, there are creatures who are not only anatomically but also behaviorally identical to us, in that they speak and act exactly as we do in response to the same stimuli.  But they possess no inner life of the kind characterized by qualia.  They are “zombies” in the technical sense familiar to readers of contemporary work in the philosophy of mind (a sense very different from that familiar from Night of the Living Dead and similar movies).  But if they can be physically identical without possessing qualia, then the facts about qualia must be something over and above the physical facts.

A related argument known as the “knowledge argument” was famously put forward by Frank Jackson.  Imagine Mary, a scientist of the future who, for whatever reason, has spent her entire life in a black and white room, never having experiences of colors.  She has, nevertheless, through her studies come to learn all the physical facts there are to know about the physics and physiology of color perception.  For example, she knows down to the last detail what is going on in the surface of a red apple, and in the eyes and nervous system, when someone sees the apple.  Suppose she leaves the room and finally comes to learn for herself what it is like to see red.  In other words, she comes for the first time to have the qualia associated with the conscious experience of seeing a red apple.  Surely she has learned something new.  But since, by hypothesis, she already knew all the physical facts there were to know about the situation, her new knowledge of the qualia in question must be knowledge of something over and above the physical facts.

As you might expect, the lesson many draw from these arguments is that materialism, which holds that the physical facts are all the facts there are, is false.  And this is taken to show in turn that consciousness will never be explicable in neuroscientific terms.  But while this certainly makes qualia a problem for the materialist, you might wonder why they would be a problem for anyone else.  Can’t the dualist happily take these implications to be, not a problem, but rather a confirmation of his position?  But it’s not that simple.  For arguments like the zombie argument also seem to imply that qualia are epiphenomenal, having no causal influence on the physical world.  And if qualia have no causal influence on anything we do or say, how are we even talking about them?  Indeed, how can we know they are really there?

How to resolve such puzzles, and determining whether it is materialism, dualism, or some alternative view that will survive when they are resolved, is what the “hard problem” is all about.  An enormous amount of ink has been spilled on it in recent decades, as Kuhn’s article shows.  Now, philosophical work can often be of great value even when it is based on erroneous presuppositions, because it can teach us about the logical relationships between certain concepts, and the consequences of following out consistently certain philosophical assumptions.  That is why it will always be important for philosophers to study thinkers of genius who got things badly wrong (which would in my view include Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, Ockham, Descartes, Spinoza, Leibniz, Berkeley, Hume, Kant, and many others).

In my opinion, the literature on the hard problem is of value in just this way.  We learn from it important things about the relationships between key philosophical ideas, such as the conceptions of matter and of consciousness that have dominated modern philosophy.  And it shows us, in my view, that materialism is false, since the conception of matter the materialist operates with rules out any materialist explanation of consciousness, and denying the existence of consciousness in order to get around this problem would be incoherent.  This literature also illuminates the problem that post-Cartesian forms of dualism have in explaining the tight integration between mind and body that everyday experience reveals to us to be real.

Origin of the problem

All the same, the so called “hard problem” is, in my view, a pseudo-problem that rests on a set of mistakes.  There is a reason why ancient and medieval philosophy knew nothing of the “mind-body problem” as modern philosophers conceive of it, and nothing of the so-called “hard problem of consciousness” in particular.  And it’s not because they somehow overlooked some obvious features of mind and matter that make their relationship problematic.  It’s because the problem only arises if one makes certain assumptions about the nature of mind and/or matter that ancient and medieval philosophers generally did not make, but modern philosophers often do make. 

Points like the ones to follow have often been made not only by Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophers like me but also by Wittgensteinians like Peter Hacker and Maxwell Bennett and Heideggerians like Frederick Olafson.  The key moves that generated the so-called mind-body problem can be found in Descartes, so that Thomists, Wittgensteinians, Heideggerians, and others commonly characterize them as “Cartesian.”  But variations on these moves are found in early modern thinkers more generally. 

On the side of the body, modern philosophy introduced a conception of matter that is essentially reductionist and mathematicized.  It is reductionist insofar as it essentially takes everyday material objects to be aggregates of microscopic particles.  A stone, an apple, a tree, a dog, a human body – all of these things are, on this view, really “nothing but” collections of particles of the same type, so that the differences between the everyday objects are as superficial as the differences between sandcastles of diverse shapes.  The new conception of matter is mathematicized insofar as it holds that the only properties of the microscopic particles are those that can be given a mathematical characterization.  This would include size, shape, position in space, movement through space, and the like, which came to be called the “primary qualities” of matter. 

With color, sound, heat, cold, and other so-called “secondary qualities,” the idea was that there is nothing in matter itself that corresponds to the way we experience them.  For example, there is nothing in an apple that in any way resembles the red we see, and nothing in ice water that in any way resembles the cold we feel.  The redness and coldness exist only in our experience of the apple and the water, in something like the way the redness we see when looking through red-tinted glasses exists only in the glasses rather than in the objects we see through them.  Physical objects, on this conception, are nothing more than collections of colorless, soundless, odorless, tasteless particles.  This includes the brain, which is as devoid of these qualities as apples and water are.

On the side of the mind, meanwhile, the modern picture makes of it the repository of these qualities that are said not truly to exist in matter.  Redness, coldness, and the like, are on this view not the qualities of physical things, but rather of our conscious experiences of physical things.  They are the “qualia” of experience.  Often associated with this view is an indirect realist theory of perception, according to which the immediate objects of perception are not physical objects themselves, but only mental representations of such objects.  For example, when you see an apple, the immediate object of your perception is not the apple outside you, but rather an inner representation of it.  The situation is analogous to looking at someone who is ringing your doorbell through a security camera that is generating an image of the person on a computer screen.  What you are directly looking at is the screen rather than the person, and the colors you see on the screen are strictly speaking features of the screen rather than the person (even if they are caused by something really there in the person). 

On the indirect realist theory of perception, conscious experience is experience of the inner “screen” of the mind itself rather than of the physical world.  The physical world is the cause of what we see on this inner screen, just as the person ringing your doorbell is the cause of what you see on your computer.  But we have no direct access to it, and can know it only by inference from what we see on the inner screen.  Our awareness of the screen involves something called “introspection,” which is analogous to perception except that its objects are purely mental and known directly, whereas the objects of perception are physical and known indirectly.  For example, by introspection you directly know your experience of the apple and the reddish, sweet, fragrant, etc. qualia of this experience.  Perception involves indirect knowledge of an external physical object that is the cause of your having this experience and those qualia.

The mind as conceived of on this picture is often called the “Cartesian theater.”  The reductionist-cum-mathematicized conception of the physical world I described is often called the “mechanical world picture.”  The modern mind-body problem is essentially the problem of determining how these two pictures are related to one another, which is why no such problem existed in ancient and medieval philosophy (or at least not in its mainstreams, though the ancient atomist Democritus noted a paradox facing his own position that is at least in the ballpark).

The problem is that, on the one hand, since the Cartesian theater is characterized by properties that the mechanical world picture entirely extrudes from the material world, that theater itself cannot be part of the material world.  Thus are we left with Cartesian dualism or something in its ballpark.  But on the other hand, the separation between them is so radical that it becomes utterly mysterious how the Cartesian theater can get into any sort of epistemic or causal contact with the mechanistically described material world.  Thus are we left with skepticism and with the interaction problem or something in its ballpark.

The “hard problem of consciousness” is just the latest riff on this post-Cartesian problematic.  On the one hand, it is said, neuroscience can shed light on the relatively “easy problems” about how neural processes mediate between sensory input and bodily behavior, but not on the “hard problem” of why any of this processing is associated with qualia.  On the other hand, it is said, it is hard to see how qualia could be other than epiphenomenal given the “causal closure of the physical.”  The former point recapitulates traditional Cartesian arguments against materialism and the latter recapitulates the interaction problem the materialist traditionally raises against the Cartesian.

Dissolution of the problem

From the point of view of Aristotelians, Wittgensteinians, Heideggerians and others, what is needed is, not further efforts to try to find a way to stop this merry-go-round, but rather not to get on it in the first place.  In particular, we need to abandon the background modern philosophical assumptions that generate the “hard problem of consciousness” and other variations on the mind-body problem.  For instance, we need to reject the reductionist-cum-mathematicized conception of the material world we’ve inherited from early modern philosophy’s mechanical world picture.  With natural substances, it is simply a mistake to think of them as no more than the sum of their parts, and to suppose that to understand them involves determining how their higher-level features arise out of lower-level features in a strictly bottom-up way.

In the case of a human being or non-human animal, it is a mistake to look for consciousness at the level of the particles of which the body is made, or at the level of nerve cells, or even at the level of the brain as a whole.  Consciousness is a property of the organism as a whole.  The mathematicized description of matter that the physicist gives us, and the neural description the physiologist gives us, are abstractions from the organism as a whole, useful for certain purposes but in no way capturing the entirety of the organism, any more than a blueprint captures all there is to a home.  We should no more expect to find consciousness at the level of physics or neuroscience than we should expect to find Sunday dinner, movie night, or other aspects of everyday home life in the blueprint of a house.

We should also reject the assumptions about perception and introspection inherited from post-Cartesian philosophy of mind.  As Bennett and Hacker show in detail in their book Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience and elsewhere, discussions of the hard problem of consciousness routinely characterize the relevant phenomena in ways that are not only tendentious, but bizarre from the point of view of common sense no less than of Aristotelian and Wittgensteinian philosophy. 

For example, consider Chalmers’ remark, quoted above, that seeing a red rose, hearing a clarinet, and smelling mothballs all “feel a certain way.”  It is common in the literature on qualia and consciousness to see claims like this.  The idea seems to be that different kinds of conscious experience are differentiated from one another insofar as each has a unique “feel” to it.  But this is not the way people normally talk.  Suppose you asked the average person what it feels like to see a red rose, hear a clarinet, or smell mothballs.  He might suppose that what you had in mind was whether these perceptions evoked certain emotions or memories or the like.  For example, he might imagine that what you are wondering about is whether seeing the rose evokes a feeling of longing for a girlfriend to whom you once gave such a rose, or whether hearing the clarinet evokes happy memories of first hearing a Benny Goodman record, or whether smelling mothballs generates a feeling of nausea. 

Suppose you said to him “No, I don’t mean anything like that.  I mean, what is the feel that the experience of seeing red has even apart from that sort of thing, and how does it differ from the feel that the experience of hearing a clarinet has?”  He would likely not know what you are talking about.  In the ordinary sense of the word “feel,” it doesn’t “feel like” anything to see a red rose or hear a clarinet.  Seeing an object is one thing, hearing a clarinet played is another, and “feeling” something (like an emotion) is yet another thing, and not at all like the first two.  Discussions of qualia routinely take for granted that there must be some special “feeling” that demarcates one experience from another.  But as Bennett and Hacker note, that is not how we ordinarily do in fact distinguish one experience from another.  Instead, we distinguish them by reference to the object of the experience (a rose versus a clarinet, say) or the modality of the experience (seeing as opposed to hearing).  There is no “feel” on top of that that plays a role in distinguishing one experience from another.

Similarly, it is often said that each experience has a distinct “qualitative character” to it.  There is, we are told, a “qualitative character” to an experience of seeing one’s newborn daughter that is different from the “qualitative character” of an experience of smelling garlic cooking in olive oil.  But as Bennett and Hacker point out, this too is an odd way of speaking, and certainly not what the ordinary speaker would say.  To be sure, seeing one’s newborn daughter may cause one to feel affectionate, and smelling garlic cooking in olive oil may make one hungry.  In that sense there is a different feel or qualitative character to the experiences.  But all this means, as Bennett and Hacker stress, is that person feels a certain way as a result of the experiences.  It’s not a matter of the experiences themselves possessing some sort of “feel” or “qualitative character.”

Then there is the fact that in discussions of the hard problem, it is constantly asserted that one’s experiences involve a reddish color, a garlicky smell, and so on.  But here too, that is simply not the way people ordinarily talk.  They would say that the rose is red, not that their experience of the rose is red, and that the garlic has a certain distinctive smell, not that their experience of garlic does.  Common sense treats colors, smells, and the like as qualities of things out there in the physical world, not as the qualia of our experience of that world. 

Now, these odd ways of talking become intelligible (sort of, anyway) if one thinks of the mind on the model of the Cartesian theater.  Suppose that what we are directly aware of are only inner representations of physical things, rather than the things themselves.  Then it might seem that we cannot entirely distinguish different experiences by reference to the objects or modalities of the experiences.  For the experiences could, on this model, be just as they are even if the physical objects didn’t exist and indeed even if the organs associated with the different modalities (eyes, ears, etc.) didn’t exist.  How to differentiate them, then?  Positing a unique “feel” or “qualitative character” for each experience might seem necessary.  Similarly, if it is only our own experiences, rather than physical things themselves, that we are directly aware of, then it is understandable why it would seem that in experiencing a reddish color, a garlicky smell, etc. we are encountering the qualia of experiences rather than the qualities of physical objects.

Aristotelians, Wittgensteinians, Heideggerians, and others would say that this way of carving up the conceptual territory is wrong, and that common sense is right.  Of course, others would say that common sense has it wrong, and that post-Cartesian philosophy was correct to go in the direction it did.  The point, though, is that the “hard problem of consciousness” is not something that arises just from a consideration of the relevant phenomena.  Rather, it is an artifact of a certain set of philosophical assumptions that are read into the phenomena.  And those assumptions are by no means unproblematic or unavoidable.  Indeed, the fact that they generate the “hard problem of consciousness” is itself a good reason to question them.  (I have argued against the mechanical world picture and the Cartesian theater conception of the mind in several places.  For example, I do so at length in Aristotle’s Revenge, and also in Immortal Souls, in chapters 6 and 7 especially.)

All the same, the contemporary debate about the “hard problem” remains worthy of study – not because it teaches us where the truth about human nature lies, but rather because it illuminates the nature and consequences of certain very common and tenacious errors.

64 comments:

  1. Would you say that the proper view is something of a combination? When we bite into an apple, we are experiencing real qualitative features of the apple, but we are also experiencing the apple as mediated by our sense organs and human nature. That is why a sweet apple might taste bland or bitter to a sick person or completely differently to another animal.

    So while we ought not deny that we experience every day objects as they truly are, we ought not deny that we are also partially experiencing our own body mediating that experience (hence the semi-objective and semi-subjective nature of conscious experience).

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    1. As far as I know if you bite into an onion when blind folded it does not taste like an onion does if you see/know that you are biting an onion.

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    2. I love onions. I have eaten them raw at times. Blindfolded or not, I can tell it's an onion.

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  2. It is hard to give a coherent physical explanation.

    Everyone has a spooky ghost that jiggles your neurons so as to produce autopoiesis? Why don't, then, living organisms then as an aggregate distribution increase the Gibbs free energy of the world?

    If you want to throw out causality, you could use occasionalism. But because causality is required by definition for sanity... well you get the drift.

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    1. No jiggling required. The object causally interacts with your body which is a hylemorphic entity unified by your substantial form, your soul, which being the form of your body and thus giving it all of its accidents including weight, volume, and qualitative conscious experience, is the perfect kind of thing to mediate between and unify qualitative and quantitative features of reality.

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    2. @Anonymous.

      That might be a correct explanation, but it's written using words, words, words. It's like the word "prosopagnosia". Who the bleep knows what that means please? It's hidden, mysterious & concealed language.

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    3. You have merely redescribed the problem .......

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    4. @CosmicCat

      The language I’m using is fairly boiler plate among Scholastics even if I am expressing it inadequately.

      Let me put it this way: Presumably you think electrons, one, exist, and two, have various properties such as mass, energy, momentum, location, charge, and spin. Well charge and spin cannot really be explained in quantitative terms. Sure we can express them causally (the tendency to repel like particles, etc.), but we can do the same thing for color (the redness of an apple is the tendency to produce red experiences in humans). But if you think it is no mystery for an electron to simultaneously possess quantitative and qualitative features, why is it impossible for a different kind of substance (a human) to also simultaneously possess quantitative and qualitative features?

      The problem is assuming everything is reducible to some more basic thing. That might be plausible at first glance to suppose for inorganic compounds, but how can one reduce an electron further to have a multiplicity of properties? Are we to suppose that there are pure mass particles and pure charge particles all interacting? And how do those interact with one another if they are completely different? Ultimately, one has to appeal to something like a substantial form to unify all of those properties. That is why the appeal to panpsychism is increasingly popular (it seems). But if a substantial form can unify properties, why can’t it also unify proper parts (like hydrogen and oxygen to form something irreducible watery)? And if it can unify properties and proper parts, then we are left with the theory of the unicity of substantial form which explains exactly how it is possible that a chunk of atoms can engage in perception and rational thought. Thus panpsychism is not required, only the acceptance of the unicity of substantial form. Then most people will from there ask why it’s the case that we can regularly educe certain substantial forms from other substantial forms, but that is easily explained by the disposition of the substantial form to other substantial forms. For example, humans are most readily disposed to be a corpse and slightly less disposed to be a lion (by being eaten by one) and even less disposed to be soil (by biodegrading), but these dispositions are part of what makes our substantial form the thing it is, so the sciences are still intelligible.

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    5. CosmicCat,

      Do you mean that you don't understand what Anonymous is saying? Or that you disagree with what he is saying?

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    6. @bmiller

      There are different levels of description.

      Descriptions which use words in a dictionary and sound like a literary journal are cryptic language. Yes they're correct but you have no idea what they mean. Names like "insomnia", "prosopagnosia", "autistic", etc... are like these. Yes you can get a dictionary definition and they're correct but they don't inform you of anything. The definitions of words in the dictionary are cryptic. And "crypt" in high fantasy means book. :)

      Theories are Level 5. They make predictions because they attempt to map onto reality.

      Programs are Level 6. Writing a computer simulation involves keeping track of moving state.

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    7. CosmicCat,

      I'm afraid I find your answer cryptic.

      Don't all descriptions use words found in a dictionary? And how does bringing up "Level 5" and "Level 6" let me know if you disagree with what Anonymous said rather than just not understanding it?

      BTW I disagree that looking up a definition doesn't inform a person of anything. I am now informed of what "prosopagnosia" means after looking it up. Thank you for that.

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    8. Hard to grow from Level 4 (cryptic) to Level 5 (theories) but the emergent technology of LLM may benefit.

      That is, take some German intellectual or whatever who wrote in words, words, words and train a LLM on him. Then ask the LLM questions. Better than twiddling one's thumbs.

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    9. CosmicCat,

      What is hylemorphism and substantial form?

      Hylemorphism is a philosophical theory most closely associated with the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle. It describes how substances are composed of both matter and form.

      Hylemorphism: This term comes from the Greek words hyle (matter) and morphe (form). According to this view, everything in the physical world is a combination of matter and form. Matter is the underlying substance that takes on different shapes, while form is the actualization of that matter, giving it its specific characteristics and identity. For example, a wooden table has wood as its matter and the shape of a table as its form.

      Substantial Form: This concept is part of hylemorphism and refers to the specific form that gives a substance its essential nature. The substantial form is what makes a thing what it is—its essence or identity. For example, the substantial form of a human being is what makes a human different from other living things, like animals or plants. It’s the form that organizes the matter into a particular kind of being.

      In summary, hylemorphism is a theory about the relationship between matter and form, with substantial form being the crucial aspect that determines the essence of a substance.


      Does this from ChatGPT help your understanding?

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    10. @bmiller

      It's all GRΣΣK to me.

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    11. CosmicCat,

      Guess that's what you get from reading a blog based on Aristotle's philosophy.

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  3. Great stuff, thank you.

    Although you correctly point out some of the problems with the “hard problem,” the hard problem was what got me away from materialism in the first place, and towards the direction of classical theism. So I have a soft spot for the idea.

    — AKruger

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  4. Great summary of what you write in Aristotle's revenge, and can't wait to read more in "Immortal Souls", Amazon has now it available on October 8th.

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  5. I think that there are philosophical questions which are unanswerable at this point in time.

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  6. I became very frustrated when I tried to read Bennett and Hacker, as it seemed to make increasingly absurd assertions on every page. I finally gave up, at least for now, deciding that I just couldn't get Wittgensteinians. It was very sad, as I feel they might be making important points.

    I felt somewhat similar (though not nearly as much so) reading the latter parts of this essay. It has always seemed incredibly obvious to me -- and I mean, since I was four or five (and I don't come from a philosophical family) -- that there is a "feel" to experiences, a subjective qualitative aspect quite distinct from the way we describe it in ordinary life. (I wouldn't have used those words, of course, but when I encountered people using them later on, it was as expected and obvious as finding someone describing the fact that humans have skin.)

    So, on one hand, I appreciate and believe the point that the Cartesian move created tons of problems that never existed before. On the other hand, when writers like Ed here or Bennett and Hacker talk about how there's actually nothing to describe about our experiences beyond our everyday *classification* and *behavior* surrounding them (which sounds perilously close, in more modern language, to saying there is nothing to our experiences beyond their informational content), it makes as much sense to me as if somebody said the hardest thing for a baby to learn is how to bark.

    It seems, in other words, desperately out of touch with reality, to the extent that I come to question whether the writer can even have reflected seriously on human experience at all. Realizing the negative answer is improbable in distinguished philosophers of mind, I return again and again to whether I am simply misinterpreting them, but come up empty-handed in any more promising explanations. And all this, to be clear, is because they appear to be denying things that were obvious to me as an extremely young child, completely unschooled in philosophy, and have only become more so.

    It is a deeply frustrating, but also interesting, situation.

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    1. SMack,
      My experience reading Hacker & Bennett's book was quite different from yours. It was that book that led me to reject reductionistic materialism.
      I found their claims to be very reasonable. For example, that it only makes sense to ascribe psychological attributes to the human person and not to that person's brain. Or that we can see the joy another is experiencing by observing their behavior. And they can share their joy with us.
      I'd be interested in learning which of their assertions seemed so absurd to you.

      Also, you said: "It has always seemed incredibly obvious to me -- and I mean, since I was four or five (and I don't come from a philosophical family) -- that there is a "feel" to experiences, a subjective qualitative aspect quite distinct from the way we describe it in ordinary life."
      Isn't a description always distinct from what is being described?
      Rejecting the philosophical conception of qualia does not entail denial that as conscious beings we can truly experience sadness or joy or anger.

      Hacker has written a tetralogy on human nature. The third volume is The Passions: A Study of Human Nature

      From the description on Amazon's site:
      "With his remarkable facility for making fine distinctions, and his commitment to lucidity, Peter Hacker has subtly characterized those emotions such as pride, shame, envy, jealousy, love or sympathy which make up our all too human nature. This is an important book for philosophers but since most of its illustrative material comes from an astonishing range of British and European literature, it is required reading also for literary scholars, or indeed for anyone with an interest in understanding who and what we are."

      I think you might find it more helpful in understanding his philosphical position.

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    2. Thank you for engaging with me in my frustration.

      You ask what I find so unreasonable in B&H's writing. Let's start with this, which you said:

      "Or that we can see the joy another is experiencing by observing their behavior. And they can share their joy with us.
      I'd be interested in learning which of their assertions seemed so absurd to you."

      So, I agree that *sometimes* we can. But, sometimes we can't. And danged if it didn't seem like they were very much saying that we *always* could, to the extent that it is nonsense to talk about what joy "feels like from the inside" as though there is something over and above what can be seen.

      But that's nonsense. I can sit at a dinner party looking and feeling bored, and then think of something that gives me tremendous joy, and start experiencing joy. It's always possible that that will make me smile and look joyful. But quite possibly it won't. Maybe there's a serious discussion going on, and I want to hide that I'm not paying attention. Or who knows? Whatever the case, I may choose to suppress the external indicia of how I'm feeling, and yet there is an interior feeling. I could not find a way of reading the early chapters of the book in which their claims were consistent with these facts.

      Similarly, they discussed headaches, and said (essentially) that a headache in another can be seen -- they hold their head, moan, etc., etc. Well, they might. But they might not. Even if they do, I might not know exactly what type of headache they have or how it feels, etc. They can try to tell me. *But I still won't know entirely, without reduction.* This claim was seemingly rejected by B&H, who seemed to come close to skepticism about the very existence of private experience. I found what they said to be absurd.

      Moving on, you write, "Isn't a description always distinct from what is being described?" Yes, that's true, and I'm sorry if I was imprecise. I was referring to this passage in Ed's blog:

      "But as Bennett and Hacker note, that is not how we ordinarily do in fact distinguish one experience from another. Instead, we distinguish them by reference to the object of the experience (a rose versus a clarinet, say) or the modality of the experience (seeing as opposed to hearing). There is no “feel” on top of that that plays a role in distinguishing one experience from another."

      I reject the last sentence. It's true that we don't ordinarily refer to the "feel on top," because we're usually trying to convey information about situations or emotions, and taking the fact of common shared consciousness for granted. But that's only to say that, most of the time, consciousness per se is not the subject of our conversation.

      When we *do* want to talk or even think about consciousness per se, then we very quickly *do* want to start describing feelings over and above what is conveyed merely by the informational content of such sentences as "that rose is red" or "I'm feeling ill." At least, I do, and I did even as a very young child. And so did other of my childhood friends. So if it's the "common sense" view that we're adopting, I would have to reject the one presented here.

      For example, most groups of children understand immediately what is being asked if you raise the question whether I see red the same way you see red. (Some won't, and then you -- another child, say -- *very quickly* start using language such as how seeing red "feels.") B&H, and other Wittgensteinians, apparently seem to want to dismiss such talk as simply meaningless. So much the worse for Wittgensteinians, I say!

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    3. (Incidentally, I'm really glad that the book led you to reject reductionistic materialism! Also, I've always wanted to push through and finish it, because it feels quite likely that there are very helpful insights that I could learn from. Stopping it in frustration after 20-30 pages of what seemed to me like clear nonsense was not my finest moment, even if I had tried fairly hard to believe the content of said pages.)

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    4. SMack,
      Thank you for the detailed response. Will try and address a couple of the points you made.

      In regards to the behavioral expression of one's thoughts and feelings you wrote:
      "I can sit at a dinner party looking and feeling bored, and then think of something that gives me tremendous joy, and start experiencing joy. It's always possible that that will make me smile and look joyful. But quite possibly it won't."

      I agree with this. So do B&H. From p. 504 of Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience, 2nd Edition.:

      "We agree that, for the most part, behaviour is neither necessary nor sufficient for a wide array of mental phenomena – pretence and deception are sometimes possible, and concealment, suppression and paralysis are also conceivable. But it does not follow that the mental is not conceptually connected to its behavioural manifestations, or, conversely, that the relevant behavioural manifestations are not conceptually bound up with the mental phenomenon they manifest. And it is incorrect to say that ‘the phenomena in question can exist completely and have all of their essential properties independent of any behavioural output'. What is possible some of the time may not (and in this case is not) possible all of the time. There is a conceptual link between inner and outer. Behaviour, in appropriate circumstances, is a logical criterion of the mental. Pretence is not always possible ( it makes no sense to suppose that a neonate might be pretending); concealment and suppression of outward manifestations are not always options. And what mental phenomena can intelligibly be ascribed to a creature depends upon what that creature can in principle express within the constraints of its behavioural repertoire. We have argued this at length, in chapters 3 and 4 and elsewhere, and shall not repeat the arguments."


      You also wrote:
      "When we *do* want to talk or even think about consciousness per se, then we very quickly *do* want to start describing feelings over and above what is conveyed merely by the informational content of such sentences as "that rose is red" or "I'm feeling ill." At least, I do, and I did even as a very young child. And so did other of my childhood friends. So if it's the "common sense" view that we're adopting, I would have to reject the one presented here."
      I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.
      I (and B&H) do believe we can describe what it is like to smell a freshly brewed cup of coffee. Or to see a sunset. Or the various experiences we had on a trip. . Do you find that problematical?

      I'd also like to add that this book we are discussing is not intended to be read straight through. It's purpose is to help clarify many of the concepts that neuroscientists deal with in their work. So it is more like a handbook that a neuroscientist can refer to. It's not really an adequate presentation of Wittgenstein's philosophy. I would not recommend it for someone interested in learning about his work.




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  7. With the advent of AI, it seems that the hard problem of consciousness has exited the realm of wonky philosophical discourse and into the public..... consciousness, though I do not think the general public realizes it as such.

    Those who are experts on AI always stress that AI doesn't actually "know" anything, and generally not being trained philosophers, they can be forgiven for not necessarily realizing that their assertions are completely at odds materialist interpretations of reality.

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  8. As a child, I often mused on questions of the kind "does everyone else experience the same thing as I do when I see the color red? Does it look the same to them as it does to me?"

    I wish someone would have gotten to me earlier to explain that I was intuiting something near one of the most important topics in philosophy and further that there is an "out" provided that you reject materialistic assumptions about reality. It would have saved me a great deal of angst in my youth.

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    1. I remember worrying about whether I was the only one who was self-aware; in other words, I was afraid that everybody else were philosophical zombies.

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    2. Journal entry
      September 3, 2004.

      " Today I imagined 20 years had passed, when the characters inhabiting the "FESER" philosophy blog suddenly came to life, so to speak, and began discussing and questioning the "internal lives" of both themselves and the other characters around them! It was really quite astonishing. Almost as if the furniture began expressing opinions and preferences.

      What, if any, veiled message might this apparently paradoxical, and quite intrusive, imagining reveal about The Existence?

      Might there be other, yet in-principle inaccessible existings which I might call "realities"? Realities, in which another, having an actual, internal, self-aware, and independent life, is too?

      Although it is inconceiveable [as well as offensive] that such realities should intersect much less communicate, the thought of it even being possible, is alarming and subversive; the sheer prospect, vertiginous.

      The implications are ... well, I don't even want to think about them.

      No, no ... all is well. And all will be well. I just had too many frog legs along with that very uninspiring Bordeaux, last evening.

      Perhaps a nice nap will set things right. "


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    3. Don't worry. There are no zombies.

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    4. Life itself is frustrating.

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    5. I had that thought too, and now I see it as a testament to how thoroughly materialistic/Cartesian assumptions are drilled into us in ways big and small even from early ages.

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    6. @♤DNW

      The spade before your name looks like the Chinese character for seeing.

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    7. "CosmicCat
      September 3, 2024 at 12:54 PM

      @♤DNW

      The spade before your name looks like the Chinese character for seeing.

      見"


      Very perceptive. In keeping with the quasi solipsistic theme of the dream dreamt, it represents, " The All Seeing I "

      Well no, not really. I would not know Chinese ideograms from Egyptian Hieratic if they were mixed. And maybe not unmixed.

      I added the spade as kind of whimsical contextual marker.

      I can do it since DNW is not an email default or blogger ID and is typed in fresh each time.

      Until recently I did not even realize symbols would work in an ID.

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  9. Great post Dr Feser! Very Insightful!

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  10. Beauty, and horror are in the eye of the beholder; ear of the listener; nose of the sniffer; taste of the taster And touch of the feeler. I am munching on rotten cabbage and other greens right now. Depending on where you are, the mess may be called kimchi or, kimshe. It is, if the story is true, a Korean concoction, buried underground, until the right level of putrefaction is aftained.I like the stuff. Others, knowing the process, might not try it , alleged health benefits, notwithstanding. I like it, and it has not killed me---yet.
    Kudos to my friends in Cleveland! Keep doing what you do well...

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  11. @EdwardFeser Have you seen the recent Frank Jackson interview on Mind Chat, where Keith and Phillip interviewed him and Jackson admitted he was no longer a dualist but accepted materalism, and no longer finds his old knowledge argument persuasive?

    Do you have any thoughts on that? It was around a year or so ago, and I noticed you did make a post reviewing a similar interview with Chomsky that was in 2022, so I wonder if you've seen this one!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdTSymICyf4

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    1. Feser talked about that 14 years ago lol

      http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/07/when-frank-jilted-mary.html?m=1

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  12. How does the experience of garlic being garlicy get into our experience of it though? How are the qualities it has on its own transferred to us?

    Are you going with something like the intelligible species to explain that?

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  13. Can it be that what is typically understood by the hard-problem is something that can actually be understood within the framework of the Aristotelian-Thomistic tradition.
    The hard-problem seems to me to hint at our having an active intellect abstracting away forms not only from the objects experienced by the senses, but also from the experiences themselves.

    It makes sense to me that the intellect does not only extracts forms from objects and substances encountered in the world, but it’s also able (don’t know why it shouldn’t in principle) to extract forms from our inner processes, including the ones related to sense perceptions.

    When I see a red apple, the intellect does not only captures the essence of the red apple, but it also captures the essence of “me seeing the red apple”.
    “What it is like to see the red apple” therefore could be the form captured by the active intellect, stored in the passive intellect, and available to me through introspection, and this I believe is the phenomenon that modern theories of consciousness are trying to address.

    It seems to me to relate to the question at the heart of western philosophy since almost its beginning: how are we capable to create universals from virtually anything we encounter and experience, including ourselves and our inner workings.

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  14. Materialists: philosophy has a real hard time explaining consciousness. There doesn’t seem to be a good way at all of accounting for these apparently obvious intuitions about reality.

    Aristotelians, et al: Actually, we don’t have a hard time explaining it at all, it’s really only because of particular metaphysical assumptions you guys insist-

    Materialists, louder: oh well, our intuitions are wrong about a lot of things, clearly this just means they’re wrong about this, since there is no other option.

    Aristotelians: that’s what we’re trying to say, there is another option.

    M: ah well, science will surely help us solve this problem in the future, after all, it has helped shed light on all other questions.

    A: all other scientific questions, you mean.

    M, nodding sagely: yes, all other questions.

    A: good luck with that.

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    1. Good summary of the situation. And remember that by "science" what materialists mean is something like "that which can be described and predicted mechanistically."

      So when they say that "science" has shed light on all other questions, their assertion amounts to something like "We have found that many things can largely be described in mechanistic terms. Therefore everything that exists can be totally described in mechanistic terms, and anything that can't must not exist."

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    2. I've been reading and hearing about near-death experiences lately. I know that these are not what the Thomistic tradition uses to ground the immortality of the soul (albeit St. Thomas himself did experience one), but nevertheless they are interesting, and as the evidence has flooded in, it has become increasingly apparent that many are in fact veridical.

      Anyhow, how that relates to the topic at hand is this. Those who have NDEs frequently "see" and "hear" the world around them (eg the operating room, or sometimes more distant locations) from a perspective outside of their bodies, this despite not having physical organs in this state. They often say their perceptions in this state seem more real than embodied reality.

      Anyhow, it occurs to me that this makes sense given direct realism. That is, it may well be that in this state, persons more directly perceive the forms of things that are mediated via the senses while embodied. Yet they're the same forms, so the experience is similar.

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  15. Hi Dr Feser

    I remember you once talking about the nature of conceivability w.r.t to the Zombie Argument and how a thomist would approach it.

    If I were to situate it withing a scholastic framework, in order to show why it is is a problem for materialism, the first thing I would do is first establish the "nature" of matter on the mechanistic conception , right ? i.e , They left no room on their conception of matter for qualities that are irreducible to the language for mathematics, by definition then those qualities become immaterial.

    In effect they have already excluded those qualities from their conception of matter and as such they are already conceiving of matter as something that can exist without those qualitative features.

    All that is left is to add the causal closure of the physical, another dogma of the materialist. And now you have matter which by definition or " by nature" excludes those irreducible qualitative features and whose behaviour can only have physical causes.

    Voila! It is now conceivable there could have been such a creature who is exactly like us in everyway physically speaking and behaves exactly like us but doesn't experience anything.

    Is this a suitable way to deal with conceivability, Prof ? Any brief thoughts would do :). It's open to other scholastic thinkers here on the blog as well but I'd prefer Prof :).




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  16. Dear Ed.,

    As someone with a doctorate in clarinet performance, I have no idea what the phrase, “ experience of hearing a clarinet,” means. We hear individuals playing a clarinet and if we are very sensitive, we can even identify individual players by their sound, but the experience of hearing a clarinet in terms of qualia, seems to be an average of many different experiences of hearing many different players. No single experience, except in the broadest of outlines, describes the experience of hearing a “clarinet.” More than that, under certain circumstances, the sound of a clarinet can be indistinguishable from that of an oboe. How can that be if there isn’t at least some connection to the acoustic sound field? Moreover, changes in the ear can make distinguishing certain instruments impossible or they can be misidentified, much as the man who
    mistook his wife for a hat (a person might mistake a trumpet for a french horn). Does such a person lose that particular qualia or swap one qualia for another? Can qualia mutate? Certainly, it can average?

    Just some observations to add to the discussion.

    The Chicken

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    1. While I am hesitant to put words in the mouth of our esteemed host, I feel confident that Prof. Feser is not trying to assert or imply that the “experience of hearing a clarinet” is a universal (at least not here), I think he means “the experience [you have when you hear] the clarinet [regardless of whether or not that experience is the same experience other people have].”

      All he is trying to say is that whatever your experience of hearing the clarinet is like, it is undoubtedly different from your experience of eating chocolate or smelling a rose or whatever the other examples he gave were.

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    2. @The Chicken: I think you point to an important issue. it's not clear that Plato assembled a theory of perception, but he talks about it in several later dialogues, and of course Aristotle does theorize about perception. For them, the perceived object is the active, and the perceiver is the passive: organs of perception, then a faculty of soul that takes in the stream of "proper perceptibles" [we might say, sound bits generated by the air in the clarinet], and then another faculty to organize the stream into some unity, and perhaps another faculty to judge the "being" of the object that sent forth the stream. To identify the sound bits as "of a clarinet" requires some act of at least the judging faculty of the soul for P and Ari. You seem to be getting at the same when you point out that there must be some act of intellect to get the hearer from "this stream of sound now" to "oh, s/he plays so beautifully on the clarinet."

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    3. Since you mentioned the clarinet, I am reminded of the great Pete Fountain. ( I know, off topic, but I am the anon who posted about JP Moreland below).

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  17. One of the best books that discusses universals and qualia is by the distinguished Christian evangelical philosopher, J.P. Moreland. "Universals, Quality, and Quality Instances. "

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  18. “ All he is trying to say is that whatever your experience of hearing the clarinet is like, it is undoubtedly different from your experience of eating chocolate or smelling a rose or whatever the other examples he gave were.”

    I have studied the process of humor perception for years and I suppose it has its own qualia as does the sound of a clarinet. I think the formation of qualia occurs nonlinearly and there is a type of symmetry-breaking transition (sorry to use physics language) involved. Imagine the following two experiments:
    1. You draw a line on a piece of paper, then another, then another. At some point, the person will instantaneously transition to, “this is a drawing of a building”. This is sort of the reverse sorities problem. Is there a transition to qualia?
    2. A clarinet player and a sax player both play a tone with a very loose embouchure. We call this a fuzz tone. They are virtually indistinguishable. The qualia of fuzz tone manifests, but not the qualia of the instrument. Let the players tighten up their embouchures and suddenly, the sounds become completely defined, so the qualia suddenly manifests of each instrument.
    3. There can’t be individualization of qualia to a person, because to one person it’s a hat, to another it’s his wife. Are qualia arbitrary? What does that do to the ability to communicate?
    3. The sudden realization of a qualia I called synergistic closure back in the day, where attributes suddenly coalesce around a unique description.
    I wish I knew back then that this were an outstanding problem in philosophy, as I primarily focused my studies of humor process on physical mechanisms. I have to go back and review the philosophical literature. I imagine it is quite extensive and goes back many centuries. I only know a few philosophers who have studied humor (fewer who have studied musical aesthetics and metaphysics) and the qualia issue never came up because most assumed that everyone would know humor when they heard it, but I can think of a few edge cases. I wish the discipline of experimental philosophy existed. I can imagine looking at the formation and perception of qualia more directly, if that were even possible.

    The Chicken

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    1. Interesting stuff. Just a helpful note (heh heh): "quale" singular, "qualia" plural

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    2. Very "helpful," indeed.

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  19. Should be synergetic closure, after Harken’s Synergetics program in physics.

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  20. The theme of modern metaphysical assumptions causing the 'hard problem' seems to me well argued for and ultimately correct, but I find myself struggling to accept hylomorphism thus construed as an alternative. Similar to another commenter on this post, I find discussion of how a phenomenon 'feels' a perfectly reasonable and uncontroversial thing, and as such a worldview which claims that there is no gap between our experience and reality doesn't seem quite right. Related to this is Locke's primary/secondary distinction which Ed and like-minded Aristotelians reject (as far as I can tell, apologies if I'm misunderstanding). I find this distinction to be correct; there is a clear difference between something like extension (which exists in an object independent of any observer) and colour (which is observer dependent), and Locke has several arguments detailing why this is so (in Book II of Essay Conc. Human Understanding iirc). Given its intuitiveness and the arguments in its favour, I don't see why the correct move is to abandon the distinction rather than just admitting there is a very hard 'hard problem' which human minds might not be equipped for.

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  21. It has been a long time since I read the Locke work mentioned. I do not know how our understandings have changed. But, it seems only reasonable that some have. Are hard problems irresolvable? They may be, if and only if, there are things we don't know---and, can't know. You may remember the Rumsfeld litany on this question. Donald R. was not the sharpest knife in the drawer.His logic for his litany may have been flawed. But, it was creative and entertaining. At least as plausible as Locke.

    My assessment is there are things we don't, won't, and can't know. And, no, I am not the sharpest knife either.
    I don't worry about it. Peace be with you.

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  22. Ed, I always enjoy your comments about books on X. Very informative. Thanks.

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  23. In Plato's Theaetetus, Socrates presents an account of perception according to which color is not "in" the corporeal object but is an effect of motions from the object and the eye. Beatriz Bossi commented, "For how could we not get surprised and pleased to have Newton’s view that colors are not in
    things but are produced on the eye by certain motions (namely, electromagnetic wave lengths)
    in a text dated in the IV BC?"

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    1. WCB

      One wonders if Plato realized some people were color blind?

      WCB

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    2. @ficino4ml What color is the dress?

      ROT-13 for the correct solution: vgfoynpxnaqoyhrfnaxlhh.

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  24. I've lost interest in arguing about belief in "the hard problem" much as I have with arguing about belief in "God", or "free will", or objective "morality". All of these seem to me examples of a class of reductionist reasoning that create explanatory cul de sacs rather than understanding that tends toward increasing coherence over increasing context of observation and meaning-making.

    But I have been wondering lately—why is Dennett's work not mentioned?

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    1. Actually, Dr. Feser devoted an entire blog to Prof Daniel Dennett after he passed.
      https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2024/04/daniel-dennett-1942-2024.html

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  25. The problem you’re describing is actually a limitation of language (where I include mathematics as just another example). Wiggenstein’s Tractus comes to the same conclusion as Godel’s incompleteness theorum (where by certain propositions within a system cannot be proven by the system itself). In this case, _any_ use of language and its inherent serial expression of experience is inadequate to describe the _field_ of actual experience which is a multiplicity of sensation. You hint at it when you say “philosophical assumptions that are _read_ into the phenomena”. It’s the reading that’s the mistake. Just as a map is _not_ the World we experience, language is at best an approximation of experience.

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  26. Dr Feser wrote "The Philosophy of Mind," which goes into these issues. He also wrote a book about the philosophy of Locke. Google them. Both are excellent and clearly written. I'd give a link but it's hard to do on my cellphone.

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  27. With regards to the knowledge argument , Since Dr Feser even in his later works always refers us to his discussion from Philosophy of Mind of Qualia arguments, I thought I'd share a reflection here on this excerpt from Philosophy of Mind since it might be helpful.

    "Another response is put forward by David Lewis, who, like Churchland,denies that what Mary learns is a fact she didn’t know before. Rather, the knowledge she gets is knowledge of new abilities:knowledge of how to do something rather than knowledge that something is the case,and in particular knowledge of how to recognize red objects,the ability to imagine red,and so forth.But this reply seems to have problems parallel to those undermining Churchland’s: for one thing, it seems implausible to assert that Mary learns no new facts,since knowledge that red looks like this (referring to a subjective sensation) is knowledge of a new fact; for another, the distinction Lewis appeals to is itself not necessarily a neutral one. Mary may well gain new abilities or knowledge upon leaving the room, but it is arguable that some of those abilities are gained only because she learns new facts:Mary now has the ability to imagine what red looks like, but only because she has also learned the fact that red looks like this."

    I pondered about this passage from philosophy of mind for almost 6 months, trying to understand the point Dr Feser was making because it seemed rather strange of Dr Feser to just say it is "arguable" that such is the case without explicating on the argument especially given that there may different arguments and counter arguments. It isn't like him.

    It then struck me that the argument, Prof was making was not really that factual knowledge of red is necessary for imagining it, rather the point was that it is "arguable" or as he mentions in the previous sentence , "it is not neutral " or " it is not mutually exclusive". Even if you can show that factual knowledge of what red looks like is not necessary for imagining it, that presupposes there being such a thing as factual knowledge of what red looks like. The defender of the ability hypothesis has to show why can't there be such a thing as factual knowledge of what red looks like.

    This was the broader point and that's why I think Prof Feser didn't elaborate further.

    Hope this is interesting. Would I be correct here Prof ?



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