Two crucial components of this picture of human knowledge are the theses that concepts are irreducible to sensations and mental images, but can nevertheless be abstracted from imagery by the intellect. As I have discussed before, a key difference between the Aristotelian-Thomistic position on the one hand and early modern forms of rationalism and empiricism on the other is that each of the latter kept one of these Aristotelian-Thomistic theses while rejecting the other. Rationalism maintained the thesis that concepts are irreducible to sensations and mental images, but concluded that many or all concepts therefore could not in any way be derived from them. Hence, rationalists concluded, many or all concepts must be innate. Modern empiricism held on to the thesis that concepts derive from mental imagery, but concluded that they must not really be distinct from them. Hence the modern empiricist tendency toward “imagism,” the view that a concept just is an image (or an image together with a general term).
These
fateful moves are key to understanding the later trajectories of the
rationalist and empiricist traditions. The
notion of innate ideas gave rationalism confidence that it had the conceptual and
epistemic wherewithal to ground an ambitious metaphysics. But rationalist metaphysical systems can be
so bizarre and revisionary that they are open to the objection that their lack
of an empirical foundation leads them to float free of objective reality. Modern empiricism, by contrast, has usually
been much more metaphysically modest.
But it has also had a tendency to be too
modest, to the point of collapsing into skepticism even about the world of
common sense and ordinary experience.
Here the critic can charge that collapsing concepts into imagery has
prevented modern empiricism from being able to account for any knowledge beyond
the here and now.
Now, both
approaches can be and have been modified by various thinkers in ways that seek
to avoid problems like those mentioned – though from the Thomistic point of
view, only a return to the broadly Aristotelian conception of knowledge from
which they each in their own ways departed can afford a sure remedy.
But general epistemology
is not my concern here. What I want to
do instead is note two general approaches to natural theology that might
loosely be labeled “rationalist” and “empiricist,” even if their practitioners
don’t necessarily all self-identify as such.
They are approaches that are, from the Thomist point of view, deficient
in something analogous to the ways in which rationalist and modern empiricist
epistemology and metaphysics in general are deficient. And like those views, they represent opposite
vicious extremes between which, naturally, Thomism stands as the sober middle
ground.
On the one
hand we have an approach that aims to establish admirably ambitious traditional
metaphysical conclusions – such as the existence of God and the immortality of
the soul – by way of an essentially rationalist methodology. One example would be Plantinga’s
ontological argument for God’s existence, and another would be Swinburne’s conceivability
argument for dualism. Plantinga’s
argument proceeds by considering what might or must be the case in various
possible worlds, and on that basis aims to establish the existence of God in
the actual world. Swinburne’s argument
begins with what we can conceive about the mind, and draws the conclusion that
its essence or nature must be of an immaterial kind.
From the
Aristotelian-Thomistic point of view, both these arguments get things precisely
backwards. We don’t start with
possibilities and then reason from them to actualities. Rather, we start with actual things,
determine their essences, and then from there deduce what is or is not possible
for them. We don’t start with what we
can conceive and then determine a thing’s essence from that. Rather, we start with a knowledge of its
essence and then determine, from that, what is actually conceivable with
respect to it, and what merely falsely seems
to be conceivable.
From the
Thomist point of view, while the metaphysical conclusions of such arguments are not too ambitious, the method for arriving at them is. We cannot do so entirely a priori. To be sure, once
we do establish the existence of God (through arguments of the kind I’ve
defended at length elsewhere),
we discover that he is such that, were we fully to know his essence, we would
see that his existence follows from it of necessity, just as the ontological
argument claims. But what we can’t do is
jump directly to such an argument as a standalone proof of his existence. Similarly, when we first establish that the
intellect is by nature immaterial, we will see that it is indeed conceivable
for it to exist independently of the body (topics I’ve dealt with e.g. here
and here). But in that case the appeal to conceivability
is rendered otiose as grounds for establishing the intellect’s immateriality.
On the other
hand, we have arguments that proceed a
posteriori, but are way too unambitious
in their conclusions. This would
include, for example, arguments that treat God’s existence as at best the most
probable “hypothesis”
among others that might account for such-and-such empirical evidence, or even
fail to get to God, strictly speaking, as opposed to a “designer” of some
possibly finite sort. And it would
include arguments for survival of death that put the primary emphasis on out-of-body
experiences and other phenomena that can at best render a probabilistic judgment.
Thomists
tend to put little or no stock in such “god of the gaps” and “soul of the gaps”
arguments. At best they are distractions
from the more powerful arguments of traditional metaphysics, and thus can make
the grounds for natural theology seem weaker than they really are. At worst, they can promote serious
misunderstandings of the nature of the soul, of God, and of his relationship to
the world. (For example, they can give
the impression that it is at least possible in principle that the world might
exist without God, which entails deism at best rather than theism. And they can give the impression that the disembodied
soul is a kind of spatially located or even ghost-like thing.)
For the Thomist,
the correct middle ground position is to hold that the soul’s immateriality and
immortality, and the existence and nature of God as understood within classical
theism, can all be demonstrated via
compelling philosophical arguments, but that the epistemology underlying these
arguments is of the Aristotelian rather than rationalist sort. (Again, I defend such arguments for the
existence and nature of God in Five
Proofs of the Existence of God, and have argued for the immateriality
and immortality of the soul here
and here. Much
more on the latter topics to come in the book on the soul that I am currently
working on.)
Related reading:
The
rationalist/empiricist false choice
Is
God’s existence a “hypothesis”?
I think the Thomist can and should utilize the ontological argument and intelligent design argument as helpful tools to frame the proper metaphysical demonstration that is found in De Ente and other places.
ReplyDeleteThe ontological argument DOES in fact demonstrate that God either necessarily exists, or He cannot exist. This is relatively uncontroversial and just follows from S5 Modal logic. Alexander Pruss’ makes a similar case for the PSR in his book. That is helpful insofar as it tells us that when we seek a proper a posteriori metaphysical demonstration, we are not seeking to prove some contingent being, nor are we seeking to make a probabilistic argument of a necessary being (who is not subject to probabilistic analysis).
Likewise, Intelligent Design can serve as a helpful “check” once a metaphysical deduction has been made. For example, if through a complex mathematical proof, someone came to the conclusion that 2 + 2 = 4, it would still be helpful to see two apples and two apples making four apples to confirm that reality comports with our mathematical proof and that we didn’t in fact make a mistake somewhere down the line. Likewise, a finely tuned universe with a finite past comports well with the existence of the God of classical theism even if it is not a proof of such.
As long as these arguments are framed correctly, they can be quite helpful to the Thomist.
Johannes here. I am also convinced that the certain versions of the Ontological Argument is deductively valid and sound, and can overcome Aquinas’ objection to it :)
DeleteCheers!
johannes y k hui
Johannesburg y k hui 2.57AM
DeletePlease expand on what you say, and elaborate. Thank you.
Johannes,
DeleteCould you be more specific? Which versions? Can you provide the argument or a link to it?
Dr. Feser above in the OP provided a link to this argument:
1. There is a possible world W in which there exists a being with maximal greatness.
2. Maximal greatness entails having maximal excellence in every possible world.
3. Maximal excellence entails omniscience, omnipotence, and moral perfection in every possible world.
4. So in W there exists a being which is omniscient, omnipotent, and morally perfect in every possible world.
5. So in W the proposition “There is no omniscient, omnipotent, and morally perfect being” is impossible.
6. But what is impossible in one possible world is impossible in every possible world.
7. So the proposition “There is no omniscient, omnipotent, and morally perfect being” is impossible in the actual world.
8. So there is in the actual world an omniscient, omnipotent, and morally perfect being.
A core error of the above argument is confusion between a logical possibility and an ontological possibility.
A proposition is logically possible if it contains no logical errors, primarily, that it does not contradict itself or employ terms that are intrinsically self contradictory.
A proposition is ontologically possible if it does in fact exist in the real cosmos. The ontological possibility of P is 0 if it does not exist in the real cosmos, or 1 if it does exist in the cosmos. There cannot be any possibility that P exists in the real cosmos if in point of fact it does not exist in the cosmos.
However, no such requirement for existential realization is needed for a logical P. All a logical P needs is to not violate an axiom of logic or valid derivative of the axioms of logic.
A logically valid P does not in any sense entail or imply or require that such is also an ontological P.
Keep those facts in mind and you will find that all ontological arguments for the existence of god quickly dissolve into disjointed non-sequiturs.
For example:
"2. Maximal greatness entails having maximal excellence in every possible world."
False premise.
Ontological maximal greatness entails having the maximal greatness that is in fact the case in the real cosmos.
One can imagine even greater beings, but wishing does not make it so.
Just because your fantasy being does not entail invalid logic does not necessitate that it must be ontologically existent.
All ontological arguments for the existence of god are just wishful fantasy dressed up in faux sophisticated terminology.
"All ontological arguments for the existence of god are just wishful fantasy dressed up in faux sophisticated terminology."
DeleteYour entire existence is sham, stupidity and idiot ramblings dressed up in vacuous materialist nonsense, SPtroll.
WCB
Delete3. Maximal excellence entails omniscience, omnipotence, and moral perfection in every possible world.
This is a statement that is not necessarily true. It could well be a fact that there is no such maximal being with other attributes such as mind, intelligence or will.
Stating such a God must also then have the attribute of existence as a perfection applies to any mundane object. An actual existent apple, chair, or galaxy has the "perfection" of existence. Magical Unicorns, fairy dust, or mythical beings like Cthulhu do not have the "perfection" of actual concrete existence. And we cannot make them have concrete and actual existence by defining them to have that "perfection".
WCB
SP, why should we accept your ontology that there are no possible worlds except for the actual world as correct?
DeleteAnon,
Delete"SP, why should we accept your ontology that there are no possible worlds except for the actual world as correct?"
Define "are".
Is that an expression of the present tense?
*There exist right now no ontologically real worlds except for the actual world*
You should accept that statement because it has the truth of a tautology.
The probability that there is an ontologically real world in existence right now other than the actual world is zero, clearly, it is just different ways of saying the same thing.
The mere fact of a logically possible world does not entail its existential or ontological possibility.
It is logically possible that bacteria live on another planet.
It is logically possible that bacteria do not live on another planet.
Those two logical possibilities are mutually exclusive, so one or the other must be a false description of the actual world (real cosmos).
Therefore, merely formulating a logically possible world in no way entails it ontological or existential possibility.
That is one reason all ontological arguments for the existence of god fail, since they confuse or conflate or equivocate between a logically possible world and an ontologically possible world.
SP, are you intentionally ignoring or just ignorant of possible world semantics, as were used in premise 1 of the original argument?
DeleteAnon,
Delete"are you intentionally ignoring or just ignorant of possible world semantics"
False dichotomy.
I reject most possible worlds arguments as hopelessly poorly defined, and typically oblivious to the critical distinction between an ontological (existential) possibility and a logical possibility.
Such fatal defects render most "possible worlds" arguments to be malformed exercises in equivocation, which inevitably lead to a great deal of confusion on the part of the typical reader, and likely on the part of the typical author.
The ontological argument for the existence of god is a classic example of such widespread nonsense.
"as were used in premise 1 of the original argument?"
Just to be clear, which "original" argument?
Dr. Feser above in the OP provided a link to this argument:
1. There is a possible world W in which there exists a being with maximal greatness.
Is that what you mean by 1 in the "original" argument?
The maximal greatness of a being in a logically possible world is whatever one personally feels "maximal greatness" means for a hypothetical being that does not violate an axiom of logic.
The maximal greatness in the real world is whatever one personally feels "maximal greatness" means for the greatest such being that is in existence right now in the entirety of the cosmos.
A description of a logically possible being in no way entails that such a being must exist in the real cosmos. That would make no sense. That would just be a complicated way of saying wishing makes it so. Preposterous.
"2. Maximal greatness entails having maximal excellence in every possible world."-ref OP
False.
Maximal logical greatness entails maximal greatness in every logically possible world. Maximal ontological greatness entails maximal greatness only in the real world (cosmos).
The rest of the ontological argument for the existence of god is a confused mess, little more than a series of equivocations and sloppily worded assertions.
BTW, Dr. Feser does not defend the argument. He cited it only as a review of some viewpoints on offer generally.
@Anon : "SP, are you intentionally ignoring or just ignorant of possible world semantics, as were used in premise 1 of the original argument?"
DeleteBoth. He's intentionally ignoring AND he's an ignorant. He's the incarnation of Dunning-Kruger, while being a rambling annoying malignant troll.
"He's intentionally ignoring AND he's an ignorant. He's the incarnation of Dunning-Kruger,"
DeleteThank you ever so much for the diagnosis, always greatly appreciated, and very helpful for my personal development.
But it seems you did not read my comment of November 8, 2023 at 9:16 PM.
The "possible worlds" analytical approach would be salvageable if folks like Anselm and Plantinga did not mangle it so badly, as they have done.
Such supposed great thinkers fail by conflating what is logically possible with what is ontologically possible. Somehow they got it in their fantasizing brains that just because they can dream up some logically possible being that means that being must be ontologically possible.
For Anselm and Plantinga wishing really does make it so.
It is logically possible that X is the state of affairs in the real cosmos.
It is logically possible that ~X is the state of affairs in the real cosmos.
Clearly, either X or ~X or both must be ontologically impossible, even though they are both logically possible.
Dreaming stuff up does not mean it must exist in reality, OK? Can you understand at least that much?
For the religious, such as Anselm and Plantinga, reification of fantasies is considered a sound argument. We rationalists are, well, rational, and do not accept the contention of the Ontological Argument for the Existence of God that imagining some being as being the greatest must mean such a being exists. To think your fantasies about greatness must therefore exist only indicates disjointed and irrational thinking.
Ed,
ReplyDeleteHere is an interesting argument against physicalism, including non-reductive physicalism, from an analytic philosophy perspective. It uses a counting argument to establish that there are more mental properties than there are physical properties or even than properties that are grounded in physical properties. Hence, some mental properties are not physical.
Here is the link:
https://joshualrasmussen.com/articles/against-non-reductive-physicalism.pdf
Dennett's Diagonalization Argument
DeleteHolyKnowing,
DeleteYou connect to Cantor's Diagonalization Argument which is part of what Rasmussen alludes to (even if there are infinite physical properties, there would be [using Cantor's diagonal argument] a higher level of infinity of possible plurals of those properties and therefore mental properties) but what does this have to do with Dennett?
@Tim Finlay
DeleteThe logic Rassmussen uses is identical to Cantor's Diagonalization Argument, except it is done as a refutation to physicalism. The substitution of Cantor's name with Dennett's pokes fun at Dennett's large role in eliminative materialism. The comment carried the intention of satire. But it failed to deliver. :S
How does Aristotelian-Thomistic natural theology avoid giving probabilistic conclusions? Arguments with premises that are less than certain can only yield conclusions that are less than certain. Or is the claim that all the premises of the relevant arguments are known with 100% certainty?
ReplyDeleteFirst, yes, the premise "Change occurs." has perfect certainty.
DeleteSecond, "Arguments with premises that are less than certain can only yield conclusions that are less than certain." is false. Let's look at this argument:
1. There are three books on the table.
2. The title of the first book starts with "A".
3. The title of the second book starts with "A".
4. The title of the third book starts with "A".
5. Therefore, the title of at least one book on the table starts with "A".
Let's say that the first proposition is perfectly certain, and the propositions 2, 3, 4 have certainty of 50% (let's say, one had a cursory look at them). Is the certainty of conclusion going to be less than 50%, as your claim implies?
Third, let's do the retortion. You say: "Arguments with premises that are less than certain can only yield conclusions that are less than certain.". How certain is that supposed to be? Is there an argument for this proposition? How certain are its premises? Would any certainty be left for the proposition itself, if it was true?
MP,
Delete"Is the certainty of conclusion going to be less than 50%, as your claim implies?"
That wasn't the claim. Read it again.
Consider each "A" to be the side of a fair coin.
Flip 3 such coins fairly.
Is it certain that at least 1 coin will come up "A"?
(hint: no)
If the premises are less than certain then the conclusion is less than certain. That is one reason we use multiple trials under a variety of circumstances.
"How certain is that supposed to be?"
As certain as the axioms of logic.
The axioms of logic are not proved, rather, they are taken to be self evident.
"Is there an argument for this proposition?"
Iff A then B
P(A)<1
Therefore P(B)<1
"How certain are its premises?"
As certain as the axioms of logic.
Arguments with premises that are less than certain can only yield conclusions that are less than certain.
DeleteThis is a common misconception that arises from confusing certainty (a psychological characteristic) with modality (a logical one); this is a confusion that usually arises from equivocating on the interpretation of probabilities. That it is a misconception can be seen in the case of mathematics; consider the proof that 1 + 1 = 2 in the Principia Mathematica; the conclusion is literally paradigmatic for a truth that is certain, but the argument for it, which is sound, uses an elaborate apparatus, most of which is not as certain as 1 + 1 = 2. Similar examples can be found for contingent truths. It's actually not all that difficult to find arguments for certain conclusions that are based on less certain premises; as some people have noted, large portions of analytic philosophy consist of such arguments.
What is true is that a conclusion that has a logical modality must in a purely deductive argument derive the modality either from the premises (e.g., necessary conclusions form necessary premises) or from the form of the argument (e.g., rules of necessitation), and must do so from a modality at least as strong as it is, at least insofar as only that argument is considered. But this doesn't tell us anything about the probabilistic judgment of a conclusion, which is a sense of 'probability' that depends entirely on the structure of the argument being used.
I don't think any Thomist would agree that certainty is a purely psychological characteristic. The certainty of conclusions resulting from the certainty of premises is objective, existing independently of whether men perceive them as certain or not.
DeleteI don't think any Thomist would agree that certainty is a purely psychological characteristic.
DeleteYou are making the common confusion between certainty and certitude, I think, but even the latter is in fact a feature of cognition whenever Aquinas is talking about scientia or demonstratio; certitude (certitudo, literally 'fixedness' or 'establishedness') is what corresponds in cognition to the necessity (inability to be otherwise) or fundamentality (greater connection with principle) of what is known. The latter (necessity/fundamentality), not the certitude of the cognitive habit, is what is independent of perception.
It is, again, an error to hold that there are certainties floating independently of minds being certain; insisting on it is a common skeptical and sophistical tactic, since it leads one to claim that an argument's conclusion is not 'certain' because you can make up reasons to doubt the premises. Premises on their own are just true or false (sometimes modalized, e.g., necessarily true or false), not more or less certain, and it is in fact easy to identify reasonable arguments in which people may be more certain about the conclusion than about the premises.
Of course, since any term can be used metaphorically, one could quite well use the term 'certainty' just to indicate the stability of what one is talking about. But the comment beginning this discussion was specifically not about this but about knowing with certainty.
But don't you agree that Thomism's realism is based upon the necessity of "certainties floating independently of minds being certain"? This regards metaphysical certainties like God, but also the contingent facts of existence, about which human science can only approach with degrees of certainty. What of theological truths which are not yet established as dogma? The truth there is definitely not related to human minds, which can only conclude in probabilities, possibilities or often-debatable certitudes.
DeleteI'm not sure why you would call such affirmations a tactic of scepticism. It is precisely the scepticism pushed by Hume and his successors in analytic philosophy that believes it can muddle through with ingenuity and "commonsense", avoiding metaphysical a priori certainties. Look at them now, barely any of the big names have been able to attain any certainty whatsoever regarding religious dogma, precisely because they do not accept its certainty per se, "out there to find". This is the end of the Christian West.
Brandon,
Delete"It's actually not all that difficult to find arguments for certain conclusions that are based on less certain premises;"
Yet you provide none.
Your "answer" is of the form "go read a book, it is in there".
You cannot provide here an argument with a certain conclusion that is based on uncertain premises.
SP
DeleteYour "answer" is of the form "go read a book, it is in there".
You cannot provide here an argument with a certain conclusion that is based on uncertain premises.
All this establishes is that you are illiterate; This is not the form of my answer, and I specifically identified an example. Given that you are not intelligent to read a blog comment, it's clear that you are not intelligent enough to have anything to contribute to this discussion.
Miguel,
DeleteBut don't you agree that Thomism's realism is based upon the necessity of "certainties floating independently of minds being certain"?
No, not unless you are using "certainty" in a metaphorical sense that is not relevant to the particular topic of knowing with certainty. What Thomistic realism requires is that truth and necessity be independent of the mind. If you just use 'certainty' to mean these things, this is a figure of speech, and perfectly fine as long as it is not confused with more literal meanings of certainty.
I'm not sure why you would call such affirmations a tactic of scepticism.
The idea that the certainty or uncertainty with which a premise or conclusion is known is a fact about the premise, rather than a fact about how how our minds are related to the premise or conclusion, is one of the things that leads people to claim that premises or conclusion that in some circumstances are uncertainly known just are 'uncertain' in and of themselves, with the result that entire fields of rational argument are consigned to skeptical doubt under the label of 'uncertain'. But the fact that X has doubts about the premises of an argument A does not mean that A itself is uncertain; even if it happened that everyone found it uncertain, this would be a fact about themselves, not about the argument. It might be that their uncertain because it is probabilistic argument, but it also might be just that they haven't studied the matter enough, or that they've let themselves be persuaded by a sophist, or some such.
Brandon,
Delete"This is not the form of my answer,"
Of course it is, all you did was provide a vague mention of some book that supposedly supports your point.
"I specifically identified an example."
No you didn't. You provided no specific example of a certain conclusion from a sound argument with uncertain premises.
All you provided was a book title you claim contains such an argument.
It is impossible to provide a sound argument with a certain conclusion based on uncertain premises.
Why would you imagine something so preposterous as that? Makes no sense.
How could you possibly be coherently certain of the conclusion if the premises are uncertain?
You cannot post such an argument.
You cannot justify such a claim.
You did not post such an argument.
You have provided zero specific support for your nonsensical claim.
All you did was make a vague reference to a book title you claim contains such an argument someplace in it.
This is super simple, just post such an argument, an example.
Point taken. I thought at first that you had placed doubt upon objective reality. I'm not sure the recently created philosophic distinction in the English language between certainty and certitude is not just an unnecessary complication between objective and subjective certitude as understood more universally. There is an objectivity about the mathematical equation you cited above. Such "realities" do not depend on recognition. That we can know with certitude is something the sceptics descended from Hume, through Burke, Scruton and the rest, never accepted. Yet this certitude does not even require demonstration or argument (although plenty can be supplied).
DeleteSP:
DeleteOf course it is, all you did was provide a vague mention of some book that supposedly supports your point.
Again, no, this merely shows that you are illiterate. As Miguel, who can actually read, saw, the form of the answer was structured around the account of certainty, not in the form, as you so illiterately claimed, 'go, read a book'. I did mention as an example (which you still lyingly claim I did not provide) a famous proof that happens (like almost every other proof ) to be one that you can find in a book; it is in fact not necessary at all to read the book in order to get the point, since everyone who has any serious background in logic knows about it, the proof of 1 + 1 = 2 in the Principia Mathematica being the most famous proof in one of the most important logical works in the past century and a half, and merely knowing very general things about it is entirely adequate, so, again, there is no requirement to read anything. Which is apparently useful, since you seem to have difficulty with reading and, given that you put yourself forward as an authority about logic, you surely know the general features of one of the most famous logical proofs in the history of both logic and mathematics.
How could you possibly be coherently certain of the conclusion if the premises are uncertain?
First, as you would know if you actually were capable of reading, the question is not certain vs. uncertain but more certain vs. less certain -- that is, the topic at hand is whether you can have a sound argument in which the premises are less certain than the conclusion. Second, the answer to the question is literally child's play: one example is when you have independent reasons for the conclusion; another is when you already know the conclusion and are working out what premises make it true. As I already noted (but you missed because you are illiterate), this is common practice in fields like mathematics, physics, analytic philosophy, etc., in which your conclusion may be something like 'The sky looks blue' or 'There is a world outside the mind' or '1 + 1 = 2', where the difficulty is not to determine the already-known conclusion but to discover what prior principles make that conclusion true.
As I said, you don't seem capable of intelligently reading even a blog comment, so you don't seem to be able to provide any intelligent contribution to this discussion.
Miguel,
DeleteFair enough, although both objective and subjective certitude are on the part of the cognition (being, respectively, certitude based on the object of cognition insofar as it is an object and the subject of the cognition insofar as it is a subject). Nonetheless, I think this is probably just a terminological difference between us.
Brandon,
Delete" one example is when you have independent reasons for the conclusion;"
Then the argument is unsound, being a non-sequitur.
If I am standing on a rock the sky is blue
I am standing on a rock
Therefore the sky is blue
You aren't very good at logic, are you?
Brandon,
Delete"one example is when you have independent reasons for the conclusion;"
That is not an example argument, just snippet of comment on what you claim might be part of some hypothetical argument.
Still no example sound argument with a certain conclusion based on uncertain premises, or even the watered down version you are backsliding to, a sound argument with a conclusion that is more certain than the premises.
"this is common practice in fields like mathematics, physics, analytic philosophy, etc."
Still no specific example argument, just vague arm waving about fields of study.
"'The sky looks blue' or 'There is a world outside the mind' or '1 + 1 = 2',"
Still no example argument, just some potential conclusions to some hypothetical and unspecified potential arguments.
"where the difficulty is not to determine the already-known conclusion but to discover what prior principles make that conclusion true."
Then the argument is not sound, being a non-sequitur with respect to the conclusions.
If you already know the conclusion then an uncertain P is irrelevant to your knowledge that C.
This is super simple, just provide an example argument. Whatever form, specifically, where you list the premises, the reasoning, and the conclusion. A sound argument that is.
One example
If A then B
A
Therefore B
Please be sure to specify A and B, and show that the more certain conclusion was derived from the less certain premise by sound argument.
Not just your bits and pieces and arm waving vague references to some book or field of study, I mean, a specific example argument.
OP,
ReplyDelete"One example would be Plantinga’s ontological argument for God’s existence"
Right, an inane mess of confusion between a logical possibility and an ontological possibility, with the key premise that wishing makes it so.
"Swinburne’s conceivability argument". More confusion between a concept versus extramental reality.
In that link Dr. Feser mentions the soul, that it is somehow "immaterial" yet also a "substance". Yet, no description of this "substance" is ever provided. Where is it? What is it? What structures of it store memories? What are the mechanisms by which the soul reasons and remembers and thinks thoughts?
No answers are ever provided, only vague arm waving speculations about the unseen and unevidenced.
"To be sure, once we do establish the existence of God (through arguments of the kind I’ve defended at length elsewhere),"
Nonsense, you have established no such thing. All you did was rehash the same old nonsense arguments that depend on ancient misconceptions about how causality proceeds in the cosmos and a host of imagined "observations".
"I defend such arguments for the existence and nature of God in Five Proofs of the Existence of God, and have argued for the immateriality and immortality of the soul here and here."
The term "immaterial substance" is incoherent.
At no time do you ever provide any description of what the soul is.
What is the soul made of? Absolutely nothing?
Where is the soul? I mean exactly, such as where is the heart or the brain.
What equations describe how the soul functions?
How does the soul store memories, I mean specifically, the structure, the organization, the mechanisms?
How does the soul manifest consciousness? I mean specifically, how does something that is nothing with no structure and no organization somehow give rise to consciousness?
The soul does nothing to solve the hard problem of consciousness, merely arm waves it away.
How does the soul interact with material? What are the equations that describe the soul/brain interface? What are the mechanisms of that interface, I mean, specifically, at the cellular and bio-molecular level?
Since both soul and god interact so strongly with material why don't we observe the soul and god scientifically?
Certainly, anything that interacts with material is, in principle, well within the scope of scientific detection, yet "immaterial" is never detected scientifically.
Undoubtedly, your upcoming book on the soul will be just another yawn inducing bore, answering none of the above questions.
I would like to echo philosopher StarDusty's comments and questions in the post above.
DeleteAre any answers to them forthcoming from the crazy Thoms who post on here?
@anon - 5/11 12:31
Delete"philosopher StarDusty"... Honestly.
SP is trolling so hard he's using multiple Anonymous commenters, or what?
To anon, SP's basic questions have been answered by Prof. Feser countless times, and they're in every basic thomistic material.
But no. SP is trolling, and he's displaying poor knowledge and confusion. If you look at his message, he's speaking on a substance dualist level, like a (bad) Cartesian -- things that are *not even true* on A-T metaphysics. His entire message is confused, blindly ranting about points that are nowhere to be found.
But I find his messages profoundly deep. Indeed, they show how mad a troll can go when he's not fed.
As for a hint of an answer, it'd be Aristotle and Aquinas ' last laughs : all the science he clings to describes AT BEST the mere interactions of the matter that is claimed to be studied, and that if we're gentle towards his blabbering.
It would be more correct to say that science, by FORMal study, is interested in FORM... which is postulated by A-T. FORM would be all the laws, all the equations, you know, all the "FORMALism of a theory".
But I take pride of seeing, yet again, our piglet troll, Stardusty, waddling his fat fingers, frantically grunting and squeeling yet once more at things he doesn't understand. I'm willing to bet I'm going to get a salty answer from him, quoting this very message, deforming it, and panting like the pork he is over it. Who knows, I'll perhaps get more of angry matertrolls food for laughs! :)
WCB
Delete1. There is a possible world W in which there exists a being with maximal greatness.
2. Maximal greatness entails having maximal excellence in every possible world.
3. Maximal excellence entails omniscience, omnipotence, and moral perfection in every possible world.
4. So in W there exists a being which is omniscient, omnipotent, and morally perfect in every possible world.
5. So in W the proposition “There is no omniscient, omnipotent, and morally perfect being” is impossible.
The problem starts in 3. Defining maximal greatness. If no being with these maximal greatnesses exists, it does not exist in all possible worlds. Necessarily so.
This is a somewhat convoluted case of begging the question. Argument by assertion. The question now is, if this defined God exists, why do so many logical problems exist for such a defined God?
If God has maximal omnipotence and maximal goodness, God could eliminate moral evil. God could give all mankind free will but always freely choosing to do no moral evil. A God that could do that and does not is not maximally good. If that God's omnipotence is limited in this regard, God is not maximally omnipotent, and thus not maximally great.
And Plantinga in his essay "Reply To The Basingers On Divine Omnipotence" agrees God could give man free will and mankind freely chooses to freely do no moral evil. Thus Plantinga defeats his own Ontologigal Argument.
There have been many attempts to frame an ontological argument that works by many theologians and philosophers. Plantinga's argument isn't very persuasive.
WCB
If God has maximal omnipotence and maximal goodness, God could eliminate moral evil. God could give all mankind free will but always freely choosing to do no moral evil. A God that could do that and does not is not maximally good
DeleteA child who doesn't get his way about eating nothing but candy sulks about how mean his parents are, lacking the understanding and knowledge they possess.
While true suffering is obviously worse to experience from our perspective than the struggle a child's tantrum entails, I nevertheless find it fascinating that, in the course of considering a hypothetical being who knows everything, on a level of existence we can't possibly grasp, orders of magnitude beyond the gap between a toddler and adult, so many still judge that being's decisions on their own finite viewpoint. That isn't disproving the attributes of God, that's simply stating what they would do if they were a human with vast power but no greater understanding than they have now. That may be compelling to them, but that doesn't make it compelling to anyone else.
First the question has to be asked, is there a purpose that can be obtained through the existence of suffering, not just from God's perspective but also from those suffering and those witnessing the suffering and choosing to do something about it? Versus the various personal ideas of utopia that people present as defeated of God's goodness?
I can think of such a purpose. Can you?
Kevin
DeleteOf course there are purposes that could be obtained through the existence of suffering, but the question is whether those purposes could also be obtained without the existence of suffering.
And the default position, given the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient God, is that they could.
Even if we don't see how this could be, a "hypothetical being who knows everything, on a level of existence we can't possibly grasp" will see it.
"SP's basic questions have been answered by Prof. Feser countless times, and they're in every basic thomistic material."
DeleteNot coherently.
On any specific example I can easily point out the errors made by Dr. Feser, Aquinas, and Aristotle.
But, just as a quick example, the most manifest way, that argues for the NECESSITY of a first mover, is made unsound by inertial motion.
Dr. Feser repeatedly "answers" inertial motion by claiming compatibility between a first mover and inertial motion.
However, compatibility is insufficient to establish NECESSITY.
But by all means, post any supposed "answer" from A-T, and I will quickly point out its error.
Kevin,
Delete"I can think of such a purpose. Can you?"
Not on an omnipotent good god.
If god is constrained to accomplish his purpose through the use of evil then god is not omnipotent.
If god could accomplish his purpose without employing evil, yet he employs evil, then god is evil, and thus not perfectly good.
You cannot coherently answer the questions of Epicurus.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
If god is constrained to accomplish his purpose through the use of evil then god is not omnipotent.
DeleteWhoever or whatever "god" is, it/he/she/they isn't part of my conversation.
You cannot coherently answer the questions of Epicurus.
You're hallucinating again.
"In that link Dr. Feser mentions the soul, that it is somehow "immaterial" yet also a "substance". Yet, no description of this "substance" is ever provided. Where is it? What is it? What structures of it store memories? What are the mechanisms by which the soul reasons and remembers and thinks thoughts? [...] The term "immaterial substance" is incoherent."
DeleteThis quote shows to me that StardustyPsyche has literally no idea what is going on.
They seem to conflate matter with substance (which is not true from the definition of substance in medieval philosophy and A-T) but seems also oblivious that substance has been defined (I mean you can just look on the Stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy) or other places that define substance in the context of Thomism. (I am sure people can use Google, or so I hope)
Any moderately informed person would know that "substance" does not mean something material in philosophy (at least not in the contest of A-T).
Regarding "How does the soul interact with material?", again this has been explained on this blog more than once.
Same with Epicurus dilemma.
I got a dilemma though. Someone who thinks they are making valuable criticism but fail to even understand basic definitions of the issues in question is either
Willfully ignorant
Too stupid to understand
If they are both intellectually lazy and stupid, why even acknowledge them?
Because the relevant premises are truths which, like those of logic and mathematics, have (a) a necessity that the propositions of natural science lack and (b) an objectivity that conceptual analysis alone cannot realise.
ReplyDeleteWhy should (how could) such necessary truths be probabilistic?
Hello Zoe
DeleteAre you a lady Thomist?
Anonymous,
DeleteThere are indeed lady Thomistic philosophers.
But "Change is real" is not an empirical hypothesis. Your defense of the thesis is retorsion, which is purely a priori procedure.
ReplyDelete"Change is real" is not empirical? Dude, what do yous smoke around?
DeleteWCB
DeleteParmenides
Change is impossible.
Heraclites
Everything changes.
Philosophy has an authority for every possible claim you want to believe.
WCB
Not, it is not. For the reason I gave.
Delete@WCB
DeleteIn physics, Parmenides is right and Heraclites is wrong. The Universe really is a 4D light cone that's static in time.
In life, Heraclites is right and Parmenides is wrong. There is no such thing as a permanent situation. Pleasure, pain, gain, loss, praise, blame, disgrace, and grace: all these things change over time.
"For the Thomist, the correct middle ground position is to hold that the soul’s immateriality and immortality, and the existence and nature of God as understood within classical theism, can all be demonstrated via compelling philosophical arguments,"
ReplyDeleteOf course, it all depends on what you mean by "demonstrated" and "compelling". Compelling to whom?
I agree with Prof. Feser. But suppose my senses never work. Would I know I exist?
ReplyDeleteAtheist philosopher Prof. David Kyle Johnson on why arguments for God's existence are not convincing
ReplyDeletehttps://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/logical-take/201402/why-62-philosophers-are-atheists-part-i
why arguments for God's existence are not convincing
DeleteConvincing to whom? Johnson used the Boghossian definition of faith, meaning that Johnson is literally the one pretending to know what he doesn't know. I won't lose any sleep that he isn't convinced.
That article does not say "why arguments for God's existence are not convincing" it is arguing against a claim made by Alvin Plantinga that atheism is irrational. Plantinga famously is of the opinion that belief in God is (or can be) a properly basic belief, the kind of which you can rationally hold even without an argument in its favor.
DeleteA theist can agree with Prof Kyle on everything here and still think a particular argument for God's existence is convincing because he does not provide an argument against any particular theistic argument.
You need to read the last two paragraphs.
Delete"Interestingly, Plantinga’s response to Russell is strikingly similar to that of another Notre Dame professor, Peter van Inwagen. I saw van Inwagen deliver his response to Russell to the Society of Christian Philosophers in 2011 (it has since been published). Professor van Inwagen argued that, since the existence of such a teapot would need an explanation, yet it has none, ateapotism is justified. However, God's existence does not need an explanation because God is, by definition, unexplained (or explains himself). So the fact that “ateapotism” is justified in the absence of evidence doesn’t mean that atheism is justified in the absence of evidence. The fact that God existence lacks an explanation can’t be evidence against it since it can’t have one.
The reply to van Inwagen, however, is two fold: First, theists have defined God in this way to get out of the responsibility of providing an explanation for him, but saying that he doesn’t need an explanation doesn’t mean that he doesn’t need one. Many atheists contend that if the singularity from which the big bang exploded—which, literally, is the simplest thing possible, given that it exists for no time, is as small as anything can be, and is governed by no laws—needs an explanation (as theists suggest), then certainly God, who is infinite in all respects, knows everything, can do everything, and is about as complicated as anything can be, would need an explanation too.
@Anonymous:
Delete"First, theists have defined God in this way to get out of the responsibility of providing an explanation for him, but saying that he doesn’t need an explanation doesn’t mean that he doesn’t need one."
This is simply false. Maybe it applies to some theists, but certainly not to all, and since we are in a blog that has covered such matters exhaustively, not classical theists.
"Many atheists contend that if the singularity from which the big bang exploded—which, literally, is the simplest thing possible, given that it exists for no time, is as small as anything can be, and is governed by no laws—needs an explanation (as theists suggest), then certainly God,"
Such atheists don't know what they are talking about.
Once again, this has been beaten to death in this very blog, by its very author, so go do some reading.
Hello Prof. Feser,
ReplyDeleteOne thing I'm confused about: with how much miscomprehension, how lack of respect, and how little interest StardustyPsyche comments, with how much troll he produces, how come he is still not banned? I remember seeing Santi and Papalinton being banned for less.
Are we tolerating idiots, now?
Your latest posts' comments are rife with people NOT caring about truth. They just want to be said they're right.
I don't see how you can really ban anyone from a blog. Instead of using their name, they can just be anonymous. And as far as their IP address, they can always use another computer. Or a VPN, etc
DeleteEd, I read your tweet. I was raised on the Baltimore Catechism, and still remember some it.
ReplyDelete"Confused reader
ReplyDeleteNovember 5, 2023 at 3:52 PM
[Says]
Hello Prof. Feser,
One thing I'm confused about: with how much miscomprehension, how lack of respect, and how little interest StardustyPsyche comments, with how much troll he produces, how come he is still not banned? I remember seeing Santi and Papalinton being banned for less."
Confused reader,
I cannot speak for professor Feser, but my guess is that there are several reasons for tolerating old Sawdust and granting him a significant amount of leeway despite his repetitious haranguing.
Placing any questions of the blog owner's quasi-libertarian principles or personal preferences aside, the fact is, is that if you allow a pest or antagonist to spout long and hard enough to generate a well established record, it establishes a handy and close to home paradigm case useful for reference and analysis relative to explainng and laying bare the roots of the more global issues involved as we live out our daily lives in affiliation groupings.
In other words it becomes increasingly clear when "the issue" is not really the issue. There is as with the question of ethics and morals, a "meta" aspect or dimension to the matter.
One can see this exemplified - at least to an extent - in the old 'Men of Ideas' episode where Bryan Magee interviews A.J. Ayer, and elicits an unexpected admission regarding the psychological impulse at work in the cases of some of the habitues of the Vienna Circle and what we would now call the program originators and "fanboys" of logical positivism. They may have sometimes convinced themselves of what they were saying, but it was hardly on the basis of the 'logical" boilerplate with which they then ornamented, and others still do, bedeck their perorations.
Anyone who has read Ray Monk's biography of Russell will have noticed some of that same phenomenon of socially motivated reasoning at play with that philosopher, despite his huge contributions to the field of logical analysis.
I suppose that in this era, an era wherein the collectivist tending types openly proclaim their moral nihilism and reduce human social interactions to power relations, if not to wholly determined behaviors, the examples can be had more cheaply than when you had to buy a book or a journal.
Still, even with Sam Harris to mock and laugh at for free, it is worth the price of a passing annoyance in some other cases just to watch the type do their runs through the maze.
You don't have to let the guy sxit in your swimming pool of course. But letting an ODC boor be an OCD boor, and noting how it presents, is instructive in its own way.
WCB
ReplyDelete@Kevin
"First the question has to be asked, is there a purpose that can be obtained through the existence of suffering...."
Aquinas and most other theologiansxagree God is good, perfectly good and does no evil.
And God has free will. If God can freely do no moral evil, so can mankind. God can give all mankind a Godlike free will, and freely choosing to do nor moral evil.
Ezekiel 36:27, 36:37, Jermiah 32:37-41, 31:33-34 and other verses tells us God can put his laws and statutes into the hearts of men who will know them and follow them, and with the "Great Commission" of the New Testament, God can eliminate much moral evil and attendent suffering.
A combox simply is not a good medium for exploring this subject matter in depth.
WCB
Not that WCB could explore the subject matter in depth.
DeleteSon of Yachov here, Firing up the Linux Computer.
DeleteWe explained it to WCB repeatedly over at strange notions and it is in one ear and out the other. Typical of him. He is just here too troll.
His response to Catholicism and Thomism is to make up his own "god" oot of his arse and claim ad hoc the Bible teaches this "god" he doesn't believe exists & he finds fault with this straw god and pretends he struck a blow against Theism or Christianity or Trump.
Basically WCB is like a demonically possessed Dr. Weston from PRELANDRA.
He just repeats nonsense over and over to be a pest..
Rather sad really.
OTOH
"God can give all mankind a Godlike free will, and freely choosing to do nor moral evil."
If he means God could have chosen only to create those He knows will do good well that was Fr. Brian Davies' critique of Plantinga' s Free Will Defense.
Well that is a slight improvement. Slight...
Not very artfully stated but I hold out hope WCB might one day post something worth responding too. Something brilliant. But cynically I dinnae see that happening.
He is no Joe Schmit.
WCB
DeleteIn the past here, I have written about claims from Descartes that God creates metaphysical necessities such as mathematics. Does God create logic? Can a perfectly good God change logic to allow him to give man free will who freely chooses to do no evil? Presuppositionalist theologians claim God creates logic. If so, why evil?
We have the problem of theological fatalism. If God creates all and foreknows the future, God must choose an initial state of creation and will know how that Universe will develop based on his initial state of creation. Which will result in existence of Mongols, Nazis, and Bolsheviks, etc. God then causes all moral evil by his choice. But then things get complex as I wrote in an earlier post. G9d seems to have no free will to choose.
Then we have claims in the Bible God can harden hearts of mankind, and does so. Why then not harden the hearts of all mankind to be morally perfect.
Why does God arbitrarily choose to create some elect and others not?
And more. None of this is really new. All of this has been extensively debated by various philosophers and atheists, and theologians.
WCB
All of this was explained to you by Mark and myself back in the day. Like I said.
DeleteIn one ear and out the other.
Oh WCB. I don't mind that you are an atheist. Not at all. I do mind you waste yer intellect on blithering nonsense and non-starter objections to Classical Theists.
Descartes? Seriously? You might as well go to a Calvinist blog and sing the praises of Jacobus Arminius or Nestorius on a Coptic blog.
Thomists don't care about Descartes errors my son. His mistakes don't disprove Classical Theism. You know this Texas boi.
"Son of Yachov here, Firing up the Linux Computer.
DeleteWe explained it to WCB repeatedly over at strange notions and it is in one ear and out the other. Typical of him. He is just here too troll.
Yes.
So, you have to ask yourself:
Given their fundamental assumptions - that is to say their atheism, their moral nihilism, their nominalism and their radical subjectivity principle - what's all the bitching and outrage about in the first place ?
This is supposed to have something to do with the principles of valid inference and sound reasoning per se?
Obviously it does not. You cannot, on their own assumptions, construct a single appeal, or overture to others, or expression of indignation, which, no matter how ornamented with references to the discipline of logic, is not rendered morally moot at the outset by their own set of assumptions.
In their world there are no natural kinds sharing an objective moral structure to which to appeal as an indicative standard. Even if there are natural kinds sharing a teleology from which species-relative imperatives might be deduced, that would, as they see it, leave unresolved the meta ethical question regarding the valorization of those objective moral patterns or deductions which did in fact exist. Thus, leaving their value unmoored in or validated by ultimate reality. [The point of Craig's bounce back critique of Harris' attemped secular grounding of objective moral values during the notorious Harris/Craig debate.]
So, as others have pointed in this very comment section, if we start off with their assumption that ideas of good and evil reduce to expressions of subjective approbation or disapprobation emitted by entities which are ultimately meaningless bundles of inorganic effects, then all the whining and preening seem not only pointless but ridiculous.
But I would go further and add that on their own foundational predicates, the anguished moans of an atheist dying in torment in a roadside ditch, reduce to the terminal manifestation of a transitory intersection of other equally pointless effects.
In fact everything they say is by their own standard simply an effect. To leverage off of that scum Karl Marx, and to turn his own "insight"* back on him: it is all just an effect of the inorganic body, blowing through what we call our organic bodies. Just wind whistling through the louvers, which will themselves disappear into irrecoverable darkness.
So what the they sqawking for?
* Marx' assertion that man is the consciousnes of the inorganic body, i.e., of unconscious material reality ... An idea which was in the air at the time as one sees with American transcendentalists.
Speaking of Joe Schmid, he's working on his Ph.D in philosophy at Princeton, and this year had a book published by Springer. He's done well for himself.
DeleteWCB,
Delete"God can give all mankind a Godlike free will, and freely choosing to do nor moral evil."
This is a good question and definitely strengthens the problem of evil against the theist. But there are some possible answers that I think are plausible.
1- It might just be the case that NO, God CANNOT do that. Some philosophers and theologians have argued that God cannot create perfect beings (beings that always freely choose only the good) right away; only God is entirely perfect by his own nature (since he just is perfection iself/pure actuality/maximal existence, etc) so every created being will, by necessity of its own nature as a lesser being, have a measure of imperfection that would preclude them from being g these godlike beings from the outset. This is not to say God cannot eventually *transform* his creatures into perfected beings, but they'll be perfectED. It might require time, their own cooperation, etc., and hence we have what we see here. God works to perfect us gradually, with our cooperation, as this is the only possible way;
2- another option is that while it is possible, it would nevertheless be *better* to first have beings with libertarian freedom to choose between good and evil, and then having these creatures through their own libertarian choices eventually attain perfection gradually. That is, perhaps it'd be better to have people work through life on their own to become better than having everyone be born perfect right away;
3- Assuming again that it's possible. What if God has already created another universe with perfect creatures? Then God has already created a perfect universe like that, but (in addition) he has decided to create our universe, which might be good enough. This might seem weird at first but I think it can be a very profound and fecund idea. One could think, like the neoplatonists, that the greatest variety of beings possible is something good, and as such, it'd be good to have a perfect universe that is always perfect PLUS a universe that gradually grows in perfection.
The important thing to notice here is that the universe might not have to be perfect to be created by God. It need only be "good enough", good enough to justify its creation. And if someone worries that God should have preferred the perfect option, we must consider that maybe God has already made perfect universes. Should God only make perfect worlds? It seems to me plausible for God to make both perfect and "good enough" worlds, and this would make the imperfection in our world less puzzling to the theist.
In other words: a multiverse might help us theists with the problem of evil.
Just some thoughts.
"Speaking of Joe Schmid, he's working on his Ph.D in philosophy at Princeton, and this year had a book published by Springer. "
DeleteHe will send you his book by pdf if you ask him. Just search a bit an you can get his email easily.
The subject is existential inertia. Of course, like the rest of A-T, there is no call for a first sustainer or first mover to account for existential inertial.
No change calls for no changer. Pretty simple. All the long arguments on both sides are beside that simple and obvious fact.
If you have an object now, and you still have that object later then that is no change in the existence of that object, so there is no call for a changer or an actor or a sustainer to account for no change in the existence of that object. Done.
A-T is not a middle ground, it is an extravagant set of idle speculations. A-T invents an unseen spirit out of whole cloth, just out of fantasy imagination, and assigns to that imaginary spirit the task of acting continuously upon everything in the universe, which is somehow always acting to change itself from existence to non-existence, so to counteract all this self changing stuff this imagined spirit keeps changing things back again so we can have the appearance of no change.
That is not a middle ground. That is an extravagant and incoherent fantasy speculation, inventing convoluted processes to explain the simple fact that no change calls for no changer.
God is good, perfectly good and does no evil
ReplyDelete"Does no evil" is the key there. If "evil", like beauty, is simply in the eye of the beholder, then we all judge others, including God, on our personal preferences, and evil doesn't actually exist. But God by definition is far beyond what a human can fathom, and what on the surface seems a senseless act of brutality - say, allowing Christ to die on a cross - can be revealed to have a very good purpose later on.
We lack the foreknowledge to truly judge God's actions, assuming of course a person believes in him or at least possesses the maturity to judge him based on the proposed and written attributes and not as a sky fairy. I certainly wouldn't make a claim to advanced knowledge, but I also find little merit in judging God from a human perspective and declaring him disproven. The argument from evil has always seemed weak to me.
WCB
ReplyDeleteConsider the Russian murders of Ukranian civilians with rocket attacks on civilians across Ukraine. That surely is evil.
Now we are told God is perfectly good and loves us. "For God so loved the world....".
A loving God could put his laws and statutes and commands into the heart of Putin to cease such evil actions. Why does not God act in this specific case?
Are you willing to actually claim massacres of innocent civilians by Russian missile attacks is not evil? Are you arguing for divine command? That there is no objective morality? If God allows it, it is good no matter how evil it seems to most people on Earth?
If you were God, would you stop Putin from this evil action?
WCB
WCB
ReplyDelete@SoY
Brian Davies:
God is not a moral agent. God owes us no moral obligations.
The Bible claims God is compassionate, and merciful. To be compassionate or merciful is to accept moral obligations.
If God could act to eliminate great evils and fails to do so, that is an act of moral agency.
Davies' theology is not viable.
One could reply maye God has reasons for allowing great moral evils. But that seems to indicate God cannot eliminate great moral evil, which calls God's omnipotence into question.
For example, if Satan causes great evil, why does God allow Satan to lead men astray on Earth?
And on and on we go.
WCB
"And on and on we go."
DeleteMaybe if you explained how you purport to know or to judge what is good and what is evil, or exactly what you do mean if anything specific, by those terms independently of what it was that you read in the Bible, some progress could be made.
If it was the authority of the Bible that informed you of the meaning of the terms good and evil, and if you now reject the authority of the Bible, then what's your lingering issue? What have you got to complain about?
If there is no ultimate transcendental cause, then it is just the dead universe that has dealt you your hand and caused you all this distress.* Maybe you should indict it.
*[That is not precisely correct since no preexisting thing was distributed anything along the lines of a recruit being doled out an ill fitting or shabby uniform.. His misfortune is not handed to him, rather he is the uniform.]
"To be compassionate or merciful is to accept moral obligations."
DeleteNope!
Son of Yakov 3.51PM
DeleteBut to be compassionate and merciful is to behave with compassion and mercy. Similarly with other supposed characteristics of God, such as him being all loving, all benevolent, just etc. The only way you can square this Biblical characterisation with reality is to blabber about 'analogy' and so stretch the meaning of these adjectives as to make them unrecognisable. This is utterly disreputable behaviour and will convince no-one not already lost to your belief system.
DNW,
Delete"Maybe if you explained how you purport to know or to judge what is good and what is evil, or exactly what you do mean if anything specific, by those terms independently of what it was that you read in the Bible, some progress could be made."
Nope, irrelevant. As usual, you have the problem back to front. Your convoluted sentence structures are correlated with your convoluted reasoning process.
It doesn't matter what I define as evil, or what WCB defines as evil, all that matters is that it is asserted by Christians that god is all good, omniscient, and omnipotent, and that there is evil in god's creation.
That assertion set is incoherent, irrespective of WCB's or mine, or your definition of evil.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
Some 2300 years later and no Christian has provided a coherent defense, certainly not you or anybody on this thread.
Still Nope!
Delete"But to be compassionate and merciful is to behave with compassion and mercy."
I smell Tautology.
-Son of Yachov.
PS WCB
You would sound more convincing if you wrote
"Put a Chick in it! Make her gay! Make it Lame!"
Well not really. But you would sound more interesting.
I'm done. Now to turn my 20 minute attention span elsewhere...oooohhh....shiny.
Son of Yachov out! Peace. I still prefer Linux to windows.
Son of Yakov, posting as 'Anonymous' at 6.23PM
DeleteYour reply completely fails to address the point put to you.
An all loving, compassionate, merciful, benevolent etc etc God , would behave in an all loving, compassionate, merciful, benevolent etc etc manner in designing and managing his universe and in his interactions with people. Assuming for the sake of argument that YAHWEH exists, this is manifestly not so however. The Thomist solution is apparently to redefine the meaning of the various adjectives listed - and others - to bring belief and reality into harmony, after all, God's goodness, mercy, compassion, benevolence etc etc is only analagous to ours. You therefore employ an infinitely stretchy piece of elastic to save you from cognitive dissonance - how disreputable! I believe that you once claimed in this combox that God was loving as he would not place fish on a planet lacking water. Hahaha - how bizarre!
Nope!
DeleteSon of Yachov.
Readers will judge for themselves the fear and inability Son of Yakov displays to engage the criticisms levelled against him. 'Nope' = 'I cannot provide an adequate response', or ' I've tried to answer previously - in this or another combox- and how dare you still disagree with me!' Pathetic.
Delete“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
DeleteIs he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
Generally speaking, evil comes from your own free will choices. You reap what you sow. (Galatians 6:7-8). The Universe operates according to the law of cause and effect.
Consider the Centralia Mine Fire in Pennsylvania. Due to madness, a fire started in an underground coal mine that will simmer and burn slowly for over 250 years. All evil is self-limiting. The mine fire will burn out. But it will be cringy in the process.
Ah somebody said "Epicurus". That is worth a response even if I repeat myself.
DeleteEpicurus' dilemma is in a sense correct and both the Theodicy view and the Classical Theist view each take one side or the other as a solution to the problem of evil.
(Of course, it goes without saying the Classic View is the correct one).
The Theodicy side takes the "not able to" side in that it explains that Divine Omnipotence does not mean God can do absolutely anything (like Rock so heavy He can't lift it or make 2+2=5 etc). God cannot do anything that is logically impossible because what is logically impossible doesn't describe anything but nothing. Adding new meaning to the phrase "there is nothing that God cannot do".
The Theodicy solution postulates there are some goods God cannot give to creatures without tolerating the presence of evil. Like you cannot have free will without the possibility of choosing sin etc...
This view has it's merits but I believe along with Father Brian Davies all theodicies fail. Like the Free Will defense. God could simply choose to only make beings He foreknows will only freely choose good not evil. No need to create bad people.
The Classic View grabs the other end of the stick "he is able but won't therefore He is not all good"(note malevolent is a flawed rendition).
God is all Good, but God's goodness is not univocally comparable to a supremely virtuous creature's goodness. God has no obligations to His creatures. No duty to them He flawlessly fulfills.
God is ontologically Good and Metaphysically Good, but God is not morally good like a maximally virtuous rational creature is morally good.
This is taught by Holy Scripture.
Job 41:11
Who has given to me, that I should repay him?
Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine.
This truth is truly beautiful. Knowing God owes me nothing is liberating. I remember a fellow I served with in the Navy. He owes me 40 bucks. Never repaid me. That bugs me. Not getting what I was owed. But God owes me nothing and I owe Him everything. Which is how it should be. No I cannot be mad at God.
Tis Beautiful.
God is not a Moral Agent in the univocal sense we are moral agent and that is taught in the Bible and Apostolic Tradition.
No other God than this exists. I am an atheist toward Theistic personalist "deities". They suck.
Son of Yakov at 12.49PM
DeleteSo in your scheme, God has supreme power and authority and we had better do as He says or we are screwed. That is the upshot of it all. Loving God is then simply a prudential matter, and 'we ought to love and obey God' just reduces to the fact that if we do not the celestial bully will do us in. Is that correct?
Oh dear, Son is at it again. In his post above he claims that God is all good, but that God's goodnesss is not univocally comparable to a supremely virtuous creature's goodness, so he has no duties and obligations to them at all! Clearly, SoY has so altered the meaning of 'good' as to make the word unrecognisable to the rest of us. What he is actually saying is that God us not really good at all ! Fair enough. That would explain a lot.
Delete@Son of Ya'akov
DeleteThe reason why God created evil (Isaiah 45:7) is because evil is not bad. Industrialization, mythology, and cryptography are all evil, but we make good use of them every day. Evil only becomes bad when a person without self-control applies it to other people.
I must have told WCB a hundred times we presuppose the Aristotelian definition of good and the Thomist definition of good.
DeleteHis entire objection is to beg the question.
God is not "good" according to his subjective and undefined and unstated definition of "good" so my argument is somehow wrong?
Nope.
Cope.
Son of Yakov at 2.43PM
DeleteYes, you take words like 'good', 'loving',.' merciful', 'benevolent' , 'compassionate' etc , then transform their meaning by redefinition so that we end up with a new vocabulary that anyone not already bamboozled by Thomism would simply not recognise. And the reason for this slight of hand? Because you correctly recognise that all theodicies fail, yet you desperately wish to cling to your belief in an all good and loving deity. .
Having performed your dishonest little trick, we then end up with the bizarre results that artificial birth control and loving consensual gay relationships are evil, while eternal hell for those who die in what you call mortal sin ( maybe playing with themselves just before getting hit by a truck ) is a great good. Again, anyone who isn't already a mindless true believer will find such notions laughable.
DeleteAnon 2:17
Translation "I admit I am not using the Thomistic or Aristotle's definition of goodness.
I am now going to beg the question and accuse Thomists of "distorting" the "real definition of goodness" which I will not provide or define or make a philosophical case for and just cry about it like a wee girl in my passive agressive way."
My response.
Nope.
Cope.
Hi, I'm Bill McEnaney. The post says I'm anonymous because I have trouble posting with my name instead.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, modal logicians say that an object can have a property and actually at the same time. For example, they might tell m that since water is boiling on my stove, it's possible for it to boil. But St. Thomas Aquinas thins no object can have the same property possibly and actually at the same time. Maybe "possible" is ambiguous?
Yes, it is ambiguous. The senses of "possible" and "potential" are being confused. A thing cannot be "in potentia" with respect to some kind of being and also be "in actuality" with respect to that same kind of being, at the same time. The condition of "in potentia" means "not fulfilled" in that respect. But a thing can have a power toward some kind of actuality, and at some times be unfulfilled in that respect and in other times be fulfilled in that respect. A person can be capable of knowing the Pythagorean Theorem but not actually know it, at time 1. And then at time 2 he can actually know it, which includes also that he has the capacity to know it at time 2, while he is actually knowing it. Obviously, it is "possible" in the sense of capacity" while he is knowing it at time 2, but not "in potentia" at time 2 because it is not an UNfulfilled power, but a fulfilled one.
DeleteAnonymous (Son of Y)
ReplyDeleteGood to see you back!
Just because it’s mentioned in the article, I would love a clarification on the Thomistic soul. If this isn’t related to the main thread, just ignore me, but I think it’s relevant.
ReplyDeleteSo Ed says that we don’t have a “soul of the gaps” because in this metaphysics, the soul does the explicit job of making things comprehensible. But to be honest I’ve never fully understood what exactly the soul is doing; ie, Ed always says it’s formal causation that explains the connection between the brain and the soul, but doesn’t that sort of just translate to “it’s part of the human nature”? I’m not totally sure that counts as an explanation.
Another thing I don’t fully understand is the argumentation for the soul’s necessity. For instance, Ed says that monkeys are bad at math because they can’t take on the substantial form of numbers, and hence can’t abstract them. But can’t “images” contain many relevant pieces of information (ie, the image of a triangle contains all the essential parts of a triangle)? What type of information won’t “fit” into an image? And if we gain the “substantial form” of objects we understand, then why do we not understand their internal experience? IE, we don’t know why electrons love protons, just that they do, and we don’t know what it’s like to be a bat. This seems like the type of thing that should be included in the nature of a thing, if we could understand a thing in itself as Ed seems to claim.
Finally, how does Aquinas claim we understand purely immaterial objects? For instance, when Aquinas is philosophizing about angels, he presumable takes on the “form” of an angel, but isn’t an angel’s form equivalent to its identity, since it’s immaterial? By this logic, whenever Aquinas thinks of an angel, he should be instantiating it.
Anyone who can clear this up for me is appreciated.
Your latter two questions are very closely related. The whole idea is that an image is a particular object. As you have as an example of a triangle, you’d have to specify what type of triangle—equilateral, isosceles, etc. The human mind however is able to see something that’s common to all triangles (I.e. three sidedness). Although any one triangle contains that information, no one triangle can be “three sidedness” itself because the concept of three sidedness is not limited to any one type of triangle the way in the way a mental image is always one kind or another.
ReplyDeleteRegarding immaterial forms, which we cannot observe, we can know about them precisely by the above mentioned process of being able to take concepts from material objects and isolate them, such as we discover some concepts are not limited to material objects per se. An example would be “form” itself. Certainly no image or physical object can be a pure form, yet we are able to understand its form, and then focus on the form itself, and isolate the concept of “form” from the material world, and thus understand that some immaterial being could also exist. God bless
Thanks for your response!
DeleteIn the second part of your answer, you mention that we take the abstracted “form” of form itself when we think about the concept. This grounds knowledge about other immaterial concepts as well.
But I’m still a bit confused. In Thomism, some forms are effective even when divorced from matter. If a person thought about those concepts, would the form that exists in the person have same properties as the original immaterial object?
"I’m still a bit confused"
DeleteThat's because Thomistic forms are a vague, pointless, and imaginary.
No science is done with the notion of an A-T form.
What is the "form" of a brick? Does the "form" of the bricks go away or somehow meld into a new "form" of the wall?
"Form" doesn't explain anything. What good in explaining how a volcano works does it do to assert there is somehow a "volcano form"? That is just a pointless and useless bit of imaginary nonsense.
Material has properties. The macro properties we observe are aggregates or summations or combinations of the properties of materials on the submicroscopic scale. That is how science is done.
A-T isn't a middle ground, it is an ancient, pointless, and useless set of unevidenced idle speculations.
That is why you are "still a bit confused", because you are attempting to make sense of an assertion set that is intrinsically nonsensical, and trying to make specific correlations between your observations of material reality and the vague pointless idle speculations of A-T such as the spooky dreamed up fantasy called forms.
I could be wrong on his, but aren’t “properties” and “forms” almost the same thing? I’ve been understanding “form” as “this acts this way because it’s this”, which seems like a reasonable thing to say. It’s basically what we say about electrons anyways
DeleteI could also be wrong on this, but I think forms are essential properties.
DeleteBeing called "confused" by SP is a compliment. You're on a good track. :D
Delete@Anonymous:
DeleteThere are important differences between form and properties, even essential properties -- see for example D. Oderberg's "Real Essentialism", chapter 7, section 7.2 "The nature of properties".
Anon,
Delete" because diamonds have the nature they do that they have such a high hardness index, and so on."
No, what we measure as high hardness is due to intermolecular forces in the crystal lattice, not some imaginary nature of of diamondness.
Oderberg is perpetuating a pre-scientific attempt to make sense of the physical world.
We now know that "natures" and "properties" of materials and beings are actually just aggregate approximations.
http://polanco.jesuits-africa.education:8080/jspui/bitstream/123456789/98/1/Real%20Essentialism%20%28Routledge%20Studies%20in%20Contemporary%20Philosophy%29.pdf
"This way of looking at essence, effectively collapsing the distinction between it and
property, is ubiquitous among contemporary essentialists, scientific essentialists being no exception, yet it must be resisted. The reasons are by now familiar. Without such a distinction, we have no explanation for the unity of an object or for the support of its properties, for it becomes just a bundle of
properties, with all of the problems attendant on bundle theories."
Here Oderberg insists on clinging to his pre-scientific fantasies because letting go of them leads to the reality of reductionism, that the whole does not exist, only its parts.
The whole object as a reified fantasy is so important to Oderberg that he feels compelled to deny reality in order to preserve his crude simplification of reality.
"For even if it turned out, say, that the atomic number of hydrogen were explained by
quark structure S, it would not follow that this single-proton quark structure was part of the real essence of hydrogen."
Oderberg seems to suffer from a quasi-religious faith in the "real" essence. Hence my point about reification of the imaginary, which Oderberg clearly suffers from by his own words.
"That is to say, the constituents and their structure are already informed by
the substantial form of the object whose constituents they are. In the case of
hydrogen, its putative single-proton quark structure S is not a free-floating structure that happens to constitute a single proton, but a structure that is itself informed by the substantial form that is constitutive of hydrogen."
Here Oderberg imagines that his imaginary "form" somehow "informs" the parts what they are a part of.
No. A hydrogen atom has no idea what it is a part of, water, sugar, or any other molecule. The atom just interacts with its neighbors as it does without the slightest clue that is is part of your body or anything else.
Well, Anon, I really do appreciate the specific reference. It was searchable and it led me to an interesting pdf I captured to my hard drive, TYVM.
Dr. Feser, do you know which issue that comic thumbnail came from?
ReplyDeleteSon of Yachov here.
ReplyDeleteI just thought I would celebrate my 31st wedding anniversary by telling you lot that Theistic Personalism SUCKS more than anything that has sucked before.
However Classical Theism is beyond grand and super duper awesome. It is what is happening now. Too cool.
Cheers.
Yachov,
DeleteMany congrats and best wishes on your long and, apparently, celebration worthy marriage.
But, well, I mean, most guys would get balloons, a card, flowers, decorations, maybe a bottle of wine, perhaps a fine dinner, you know, anniversary kind of stuff. Telling the world what you consider "sucks" seems a rather, ehem, unique method of romantic celebration.
Are you a Christian by any chance? Jesus was a person, right? I mean, it is right there on so much of Catholic iconography, he looks like a person.
So does god in the bible, I mean, "He" goes around talking to people in sentences, writing stuff on stone tablets, stuff people do, seems like a person in the bible, a male person to be specific.
Then there are the angels, demons, that pesky snake...they seem like persons too.
So, all that bible personalism stuff "sucks". Happy Anniversary.
Theistic Personalism sucks more than anything that has ever sucked b4...save posers who don't read Feser's blog seriously and dinnae ken the difference between Classical Theism vs Theistic Personalism....
DeleteIt is not hard to use the search function here mate.... it is right there in the upper left top of the blog.
Question about Thomist natural theology:
ReplyDeleteIn the ST, Aquinas states that Sacred Doctrine is a science (I.1.2) and that God is the subject of that science (I.1.7). However, it is known that no science demonstrates the existence of its own subject. Why, then, does Aquinas attempt to do just that in the ST (I.2.3)?
Sinawi,
ReplyDelete"Aquinas states that Sacred Doctrine is a science"
I very much doubt Aquinas says precisely that. More likely, you are interpreting some words by Aquinas to be in some way similar to your notion of science and making some sort of associative connection.
A speculation of god that formulates god as in inherently invisible and materially undetectable being is intrinsically unscientific, at least as most people today would view science.
Most people consider that to qualify as a scientific hypothesis the assertion must be falsifiable. If the assertion has built into it an assurance that the assertion cannot be falsified then it is merely an idle speculation, not a scientific hypothesis.
That is what the assertion of an invisible materially undetectable being is, idle speculation.
The modal ontological argument sounds like the one in Plantinga' book "The Nature of Necessity." Since I lost my copy of that book, would someone do me a favor? If thee argument is Planting's, please tell me what he means by "maximal greatness," Thanks.
ReplyDeleteBill McEnaney