Thursday, December 26, 2013

A complex god with a god complex


I thank Dale Tuggy for his two-part reply to my most recent remarks about his criticisms of classical theism, and I thank him also for his gracious remarks about my work.  In Part 1 of his reply Dale tries to make a biblical case against classical theism, and in Part 2 he criticizes the core classical theist doctrine of divine simplicity.  Let’s consider each in turn.  Here are what I take to be the key remarks in Part 1 (though do read the whole thing in case I’ve left out something essential).  Dale writes:

As best I can tell, most Christians … think, and have always thought of God as a great self…

For them, God is a “He.” They think God loves and hates, does things, hears them, speaks, knows things, and can be anthropomorphically depicted, whether in art, or in Old Testament theophanies. And a good number think that the one God just is Jesus himself – and Jesus is literally a self, and so can’t be Being Itself.

Dale then goes on to cite various biblical passages in which God is described in personal terms.  He also adds some important qualifications:

In a number of biblical texts, God is pictured as sitting on a throne. Anthropomorphic? Yes, in the proper sense of the term. This is portraying God as human-like, humanoid, if you like. But this is OK; as we saw in Genesis 1, God made humans in his own image – and similarity is a symmetrical relation. That is, if we’re similar to God, it follows that he’s similar to us. This needn’t be a bodily similarity – but portraying God as a humanoid figure is an easy way to get us to think of him as a self…

God gets mad. Literally? Yes. Does the hair stand up on the back of his neck? Does he get red in the face? Does his heart race? No, no, and no. None of those are required for getting mad. A spirit may get mad. We have no good reason to think that only a bodily being can be a subject of annoyance, wrath, disdain, and so on.

Is this a flat-footed literalism? No. Nothing I’ve said, and nothing I will say, implies that all biblical, or all true descriptions of God must be understood literally. The claim is rather that we can form concepts which are satisfied by both God and his creatures, and of course we have terms which express these concepts, and so those terms too – e.g. being, self, moral agent, thinking being, soul, actor, lover, real entity – apply to both. But are those concepts I just named suited only to physical beings, or to creatures, or to humans? No. We can abstract away elements of a concept, and get a more general one, which applies to more than one sort of being, and even a divine being, a god.

From the biblical passages, Dale concludes:

God takes pity on us. He is compassionate, and sympathizes with our plight. He is supremely loving. He forgives. These actions, emotions, and character trains [sic] logically presuppose that he’s a self, a being capable of consciousness, with intelligence, will, and the ability to intentionally act. An abstract object, a universal, a force, a thought, a property, or a something-somewhat-like-a-universal can’t be thought to (literally) do or have those.

Later he adds:

Are you a long time churchgoer?  Ever heard a sermon or homily or liturgical reading or song whose theme was that “God” is “Being Itself”? Have you heard any in which God is extolled as a wonderful, trustworthy, active, mighty, wise, kind, parent-like being?  What’s the percentage of the two?  For me, it’d be 0% vs. 100%.

There’s a lot more in this vein, but that gives you the general idea.  Here are the problems I see with it:

1. Straw-manning and/or begging the question:  I’ve noted many times that the classical theist does not deny that God is personal, and indeed typically insists on attributing the key personal attributes of intellect and will to God.  Certainly the Christian classical theist does not regard God as “an abstract object, a universal, a force” etc.  So to cite biblical passages in which God is described as personal by itself cuts absolutely no ice.  Christian classical theists are well aware of those passages and accept them just as much as Dale does.  Hence, if Dale means to imply that the classical theist regards God as impersonal, then he is simply attacking a straw man.

More likely, Dale just doesn’t agree that the passages in question are best interpreted the way the classical theist would interpret them.  Evidently he supposes that in order to think of God as personal, you have to regard him as “a being” alongside other beings and “a person” alongside other persons, rather than as Being Itself and Intellect Itself.  “Jesus is literally a self,” he writes, “and so can’t be Being Itself” (emphasis added).  But of course, the classical theist doesn’t think this follows at all.  The classical theist thinks his own understanding of what it means to describe God in personal terms is perfectly compatible with the Bible, rightly understood.  Dale merely assumes, rather than argues, that this is false.  Hence he simply begs the question.

2. Special pleading: Dale does not hold himself to the same standard he applies to the classical theist.  When it suits him he cites the “man on the street’s” understanding of a scriptural passage as if it settled the matter.  But only when it suits him.  Does the plain man think that biblical descriptions of divine anger entail a literal emotional state into which God temporarily passes until his wrath is assuaged?  Then this, Dale seems to think, is also how the educated Christian should read these passages.  Does the plain man also suppose, on biblical grounds, that God literally sits on a throne?  Well, we needn’t agree with him about that!  But why not?  The classical theist, after all, has given reasons why the former sort of passage should not be taken at face value any more than the latter.  Dale, by contrast, offers no explicit criteria for why some passages but not others should be taken at face value.  And his implicit criteria do not reflect an adequate understanding of what is at stake.  Which brings us to:

3. Missing the point: Dale seems to think that in order to avoid a crude anthropomorphism that is incompatible with God’s being the ultimate explanation of things, it suffices to refrain from attributing corporeal attributes to him.  But the classical theist is well aware that theistic personalists don’t think God has a heart, a neck, etc.  While their reason for objecting to the attribution to God of emotional states is partly because at least some of them think a correct analysis of such states reveals them to be essentially corporeal, there are other reasons too.  For example, even if you regard the feelings with which anger is associated in us as something that might exist in a spirit, it still cannot be the case that God has such feelings.  For if (say) he goes from a tranquil state to having such feelings and then calms down again, then he has potentialities that can be actualized.  That entails that he can be caused to undergo change, and that he is composite (since there would in this case be both potentiality and actuality within him).  And that in turn entails that he is not the ultimate explanation of things, since whatever is composite requires a cause.

To speak of God’s wrath cannot be a matter of attributing to him an ephemeral emotional state, then.  It is rather a matter of God timelessly willing the punishment of the unrepentant.  Now Dale might disagree with this, as well as with the claims that emotions entail corporeal states -- a claim he glibly dismisses, but without any argument whatsoever -- and that anything that changes (including changing its emotional states) would require a cause of its own.  The point, though, is that merely citing biblical passages settles absolutely nothing.  Dale himself is happy to read some passages non-literally when a literal reading would conflict with what we know God must be like in order to be the first cause of things.  All the classical theist is saying is that the same sorts of considerations should lead to a more nuanced reading of other passages as well.  If Dale agrees that not all biblical descriptions of God can be taken at face value given what God is supposed to be, then the key point has already been conceded.  Anthropomorphism has been rejected in principle.  The rest are details.

4. Confusing analogy and metaphor: Having said that, Dale is rather sloppy in characterizing the classical theist’s treatment of biblical language.  It is not merely a matter of taking a passage either literally or non-literally.  In particular, when a Thomist says that a certain description of God must be understood analogically, he does not mean that it is merely metaphorical or non-literal.  Analogy is not the same thing as metaphor.  When I say that this man is good and that that pizza is good, I am using the term “good” analogically.  But I am still speaking literally and non-metaphorically in each case.  I am not saying that either the man or the pizza is not really good but that describing them that way is just a colorful way of saying something else.  I am saying that they are, literally, both good while recognizing that the goodness of food is a very different kind of thing from the goodness of a human being.

Now when the Thomist says that the words we apply to God cannot be understood in the same sense in which we apply them to human beings, he does not mean that such language must always be understood metaphorically or non-literally.  Some of it should be, but some of it should be understood in a way that is literal, but analogical rather than univocal.  Now, when we speak of God as “getting angry” or “being moved to pity” or the like, that is mere metaphor, because it implies a change in God and God cannot literally change.  But when we speak of God’s goodness, love, intellect, power, will, etc. that talk is to be understood not metaphorically but analogically.  That means that the description is literal, but just not univocal.  We are saying that there literally is goodness, love, etc. in God and that while it is not exactly the same thing as what we call goodness, love, etc. in us (just as the goodness of pizza is not the same thing as the goodness of a man) it is nevertheless analogous to what we call goodness, love, etc. in us.

Dale says that “we can form concepts which are satisfied by both God and his creatures” insofar as “we can abstract away elements of a concept, and get a more general one, which applies to more than one sort of being” -- as if this were something the Thomist would deny.  But in fact what Dale is describing is at least part of what the Thomist account of the analogical nature of theological language is itself saying.  The Thomist is claiming that the abstraction must be more extensive than Dale realizes, given what God must be like in order to be the ultimate explanation of things.  But he certainly does not deny that we can speak literally about God and that we can apply some of the same concepts both to God and to human beings (provided they are understood analogically).

5. Red herring: Like Dale, I haven’t heard any sermons about God as Being Itself.  So what?  I also haven’t heard any sermons on astronomy, but I assume Dale wouldn’t argue: “Pastors don’t give sermons on astronomy.  Therefore we should think the sun literally moves relative to the earth and that the earth does not move at all, since some biblical passages taken literally give that impression.” 

Why Dale thinks serious theology should always be sermon-friendly, I have no idea.  Sermons, after all, generally have to be accessible to people from all walks of life, and they are essentially pastoral rather than theological in purpose.  It is as ludicrous to judge a technical theological assertion by reference to its value to the preacher as it is to judge the preacher’s work by appeal to the standards of the technical theological treatise.  Dale is essentially making the same mistake as the New Atheist who insists on interpreting what serious philosophers and theologians say in light of what “the man in the pew” thinks, rather than the other way around.  The difference is that whereas the New Atheist attacks the simplistic conception of God that results, Dale embraces it. 

So much for Part 1 of Dale’s reply.  Part 2 is, I think, much better insofar as it (finally!) addresses the real issue between the classical theist and the theistic personalist.  Dale agrees that to be the ultimate explanation of things, God must in some sense lack any parts.  But he thinks one can affirm this without going the whole hog for the traditional doctrine of divine simplicity.  How?  Dale considers two main possible approaches, corresponding to two non-Aristotelian approaches to the problem of universals, viz. Platonist and nominalist.  (He also briefly alludes to treating universals as ideas in the divine intellect, but that just is the standard Scholastic view rather than an alternative to it.)  It is the second, nominalist view that Dale himself endorses. 

The first, Platonist approach goes like this:

Some monotheistic fans of abstracta such as universals will say that aseity only requires that God not depend on any other concrete beings. This will leave God as the Greatest Possible Being. Are abstracta also necessary and a se? They can reply: so what? That doesn’t put them at all in God’s league, as he’s also omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and so on. Abstracta are powerless shadows by comparison.

Must we think that God is the free creator of all else? The present theory rules out that. But arguably, the biblical and traditional requirement is that God alone made the heavens and the earth. As to things which couldn’t possibly be created (abstracta), it’s no deficiency in God if he didn’t create them.

Realists who aren’t Aristotelians about universals will say that it is simply a mistake to think of a thing’s properties as parts or components of it. Parts are parts. But having properties, they think, is bearing a unique relation to some universal. A partless being, they will urge, may bear such a relation to countless universals. God does that, and because he has has [sic] the properties (yes, plural) that he does, he’s the greatest being there could be.

End quote.  Now, I disagree with the claim that a thing’s properties aren’t parts of it in the relevant sense (see below), but we can put that issue aside because it is beside the main point -- a point Dale misses.  The reason the classical theist denies that God can have parts is that if God did have them, then he could not be the ultimate explanation of things.  It is God’s metaphysical and explanatory ultimacy that is crucial, not the lack of parts per se.  And even if we allowed that there is a sense in which God lacks parts on this Platonist view Dale is describing, God would not on this view, by Dale’s own admission, be metaphysically and explanatorily ultimate.   What would be metaphysically and explanatorily ultimate would be the universals and whatever principle accounts for their instantiation -- including their instantiation in God, which would require an explanation apart from God even if God were the explanation of how universals are instantiated in other things.

Of course, how universals understood in Platonist terms could be causally efficacious is bound to seem mysterious to your average modern philosopher.  But that doesn’t make them any less metaphysically and explanatorily ultimate, on the view in question.  Moreover, that their causality is mysterious to the modern philosopher will, for the traditional Platonist, say more about modern philosophers than it does about Platonism.  For modern philosophers tend to have a highly desiccated conception of causality -- essentially reducing all causality down, not only to efficient causality, but to a post-Humean understanding of efficient causality that is itself desiccated.  Exemplar causality as a species of Aristotelian formal causality, or the Neo-Platonist notion of emanation, might be appealed to by a Platonist as a way of making sense of the causality of universals understood as Platonic Forms.  In which case universals don’t seem very much like “powerless shadows” after all.

Hence the Platonist view Dale describes is perfectly compatible with saying, as a traditional non-Christian Platonist might, that the highest reality is the realm of the Forms, with the Form of the Good being the highest of the Forms.  A Timaeus-like demiurge or craftsman imposes order on the primeval chaos by looking to the Forms as models, but he is less ultimate than they are (since even the demiurge is what he is only by reference to the Forms he instantiates).  If Dale would think it acceptable to identity the God of the Bible with such a demiurge, he owes us an explanation of how this would be anything other than a classier riff on what is essentially an Erich von Däniken-style theology or a Prometheus theology (not to mention a Gnostic theology!)  Like the worship of space aliens, it would be the worship of something which may in some sense have “created” us but which nevertheless is, like us, itself dependent for its reality on something else.  That it is not dependent in exactly the way we are is hardly relevant.  Being what you are by virtue of participating in a Form makes you no less dependent on something more fundamental than you are than does being what you are because you have been engineered by a demiurge.  Nor does incorporeality or everlastingness suffice to make something metaphysically ultimate, otherwise an angel which had always existed -- think of an Aristotelian immaterial intelligence perpetually moving a planetary sphere in a universe that had no beginning -- would have the kind of divinity Christians attribute to the God of the Bible, and I imagine Dale would agree that that is not the case.

So, Dale’s first proposed alternative to divine simplicity fails.  What of his second, nominalist approach -- the approach he actually favors himself?  It goes like this:

For my part, I don’t believe in abstracta. For non-theological reasons, I think that positing them introduces at least as many problems as it solves. I do believe things are similar, and I do believe in something like what philosophers now call individual properties – but I don’t grant that they are second-class substances. I think they’re just ways substances are, or modes of them.

God exists, and is wise and powerful. This means, roughly, that he knows a lot about import [sic] matters, and that he can intentionally do a wide range of actions. (Those are vague terms, expressing vague concepts.) There’s no need, in my view, to suppose this means God is essentially related to distinct, eternal “universals” of wisdom and power – be they parts of his, or denizens of the proverbial “Platonic heaven.” What thing(s) make(s) it true that God is wise and powerful? God – that’s all.

But isn’t his wisdom distinct from his power? Yes, those are distinct (and essential) aspects of God. They are ways he is, and ways he must be. Does this mean he has parts? No. But is he then, as Thomists would have it, utterly simple? No – his wisdom is a different intrinsic mode or aspect of him than his power. But he doesn’t have parts – modes aren’t things, but only ways things are, and so are not parts.

On any of these alternate views, including my nominalist view at the end, God will be a being. But he’ll also be necessary and independent of any other (concrete) being.

End quote.  Now, the Thomist doesn’t accept nominalism any more than he does Platonism, but this too can be put to one side for present purposes.  The key problem with this second approach is this.  Dale’s proposal posits in God what Thomists would call a real distinction between substance and accidents.  Now substance and accidents are related as potential to actual; for the accidents of a thing actualize it insofar as they determine that it is this way rather than that.  But in God there can be no mixture of potentiality and actuality, otherwise he could not be absolutely necessary.  Only that which is pure actuality can be that. 

(Incidentally, if God were composed of substance and accidents, he would have “parts” in the relevant sense.  Dale seems to think of the “parts” the doctrine of divine simplicity denies as being “second-class substances,” but that is not what is meant.  In order for something to be a part in the relevant sense it need not be the sort of thing that could exist on its own, after the manner of a substance.  To suppose otherwise is to suppose that if A and B are really distinct then A and B must be able to exist separately, as two substances can exist separately.  But that a real distinction entails separability is something that the Thomistic theory of distinctions famously denies.  Two things A and B -- whether A and B are a substance and its accidents, an essence and an act of existence, or whatever -- could be really distinct even if they could not exist separately.  See my forthcoming Scholastic Metaphysics for more on this.)

Of course, Dale characterizes God as “necessary,” but it is no good merely to say that he would be necessary.  We need an account of why he would be necessary (and indeed how he could be necessary) if he is not pure actuality.  Suppose I said to you: Consider the notion of a bluenana.  It’s a banana that’s blue all over, but not just in any old way.  It’s the concept of a banana that’s necessarily blue.  What makes it true that it’s only ever blue? That it’s a bluenana -- that’s all.

Now, have I even made plausible the notion of a bluenana?  Obviously not, for there is simply nothing in the notion of having the usual features of a banana that could tie it together with being necessarily blue.  Blueness and the various characteristics of bananas are evidently related only contingently.  Just saying “What makes it necessarily blue is that it’s a bluenana, that’s all” does no metaphysical work whatsoever.  Now suppose I added to the notion of a bluenana the further characteristic of being the sort of thing that has, essentially, the color that actual ripe bananas usually have.  Now my proposed notion of a bluenana is not only implausible but implicitly self-contradictory.  For now I’ve implicitly attributed yellowness to bluenanas, as well as explicitly attributed blueness to them.  And they can’t be both yellow and blue.

Dale’s concept of God is like that.  It’s no good just to say: “God has wisdom, power, and other distinct attributes.  Just ‘cause he’s God, that’s all.  Oh, and he’s necessary too.”  For we need to know why necessary existence goes along with wisdom, power, etc. any more than blueness goes along with the attributes of a banana.  By itself what Dale gives us is just a wish list, or a metaphysical Build-A-Bear.  (“Dear Santa, here’s what I want in my theistic personalist god!”)  And such an exercise is completely undermined when one goes on to say or imply that these various attributes are distinct from the substance that has them (or for that matter that they’re merely distinct from each other -- it wouldn’t change things at all if you dropped substance entirely and went for some kind of bundle theory instead).  For you’ve now implicitly attributed potentiality to God, and nothing that has potentiality can be a necessary being, any more than what is yellow all over can at the same time be blue all over.

Dale gives us no reason at all, then, to doubt that a “God” who is composed of substance and accidents, genus and specific difference, essence and existence, or in any other way is less than absolutely simple, is also less than divine.  Indeed, his proposals merely reinforce the conclusion that a “God” who is merely “a being” rather than Being Itself or merely “a person” rather than Intellect Itself, is necessarily also only “a god” rather than God.  Qua metaphysically complex, such a god can only ever have a god complex -- delusions of true divinity but not the real McCoy.  To paraphrase J. B. Phillips, the god of theistic personalism is too small.  Or as the Hulk would put it…

425 comments:

  1. Glenn:

    Please

    Yes, please provide the quote so that I can read the context.


    This is a comment on your ability to pay attention. My goodness.

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  2. dguller what you and I have in common is we are both human. One thing we don't have in common is we each are our own persons. I am BenYachov & you are dguller.

    What distinguishes us is our different persons but we have being members of the same species in common.

    Individual Persons and a single species are different categories.

    Aquinas and later Thomists use species & individual members of said species subsisting in that species as an analogy for the divine essence and Individual Subsistences in the divine essence(i.e. persons).

    What the Trinitarian Classic Theist does is negate the imperfections in the analogy. Individual members of a species are distinct physical & metaphysical beings. Subsisting relations have no
    physical or metaphysical distinction from one another and are the same being of Pure Act or Being Itself. Since they subsist in the divine essence and thus are all the one God without distinction.

    Their real distinction of opposing relation is a mystery & in principle inconceivable.

    You have to think of the category of divine essence relative to divine relations as analogous to the relationship between the category of species vs individual individual members of the species. Thus your New argument is a category mistake.

    But no literal comparisons please.

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  3. >That’s not what Aquinas says, though. He writes that “whatever is attributed to God is His own essence” (ST 1.40.1).

    There is only a notional difference between God and his attributes. So what? The divine essence is simply God. You must accept it. This quote does not unsay what I have said it has nothing to do with it.

    >Remember that what makes God, God, is the divine essence.

    But there is no real distinction between his essence and being thus God is his own essence. Thus the divine essence is God.
    Transitive principle of logic what you don't accept that principle anymore?

    >After all, it is the divine essence that is Being itself, which is the ultimate explanatory principle of reality itself. Why you insist on substituting “God” for “the divine essence” is beyond me, other than to obfuscate the issue.

    It is you who are obfuscating your "argument" has no practical or intelligible meaning. It is a category mistake & lazy.

    >After all, God is also the Son, and God is the Father. So, when you say “God” are you talking about the divine essence or the divine persons, or are you saying that there is only a notional distinction between them, and they are just different terms for the one and the same thing?

    What category in regards to God am I specifically speaking of? Silly question. There is only a notional distinction between the Father & Son as God but a real distinction as divine persons in God. Why is this hard?

    >No, Ben. Aquinas explicitly says that what the divine persons have in common is the divine essence, and not being God, unless the two terms are merely notionally distinct.

    Well whatever is in the divine essence is God & good luck finding a single Classic Theist & or Trinitarian here who will take you seriously if you claim the divine essence, is not the same as being God.


    >But in that case, my argument still stands, because whenever you write “being God”, I can just as easily replace it with “the divine essence”, and remember that my argument just relies upon the fact that the divine essence is Being itself, and anything that is not the divine essence is also not Being itself, and thus must necessarily participate in Being itself, i.e. be a created being.

    Except Being Itself is God & the divine essence. My reading clarifies in the realm of Theology yours OTOH obfuscates. It is that simple.

    >And even if your principle of distinction was correct, i.e. “being the same singular indistinct person”, then this reality must be a created being, because it must be really distinct from the divine essence, or being God, or whatever.

    How can anything that subsists in the divine essence be a creature? That is like saying an individual being that subsists in the human species must be a reptile. Anything that subsists in the divine essence is God and is only notionally distinct from being God and from being the divine essence.

    The logic is undeniable.

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  4. Glenn:

    I’m presuming that you mean this quote:

    “since the relations whereby the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished really exist in God, the relations in question must be real relations, and are not merely mental relations.”

    Since you didn’t provide the citation of where you got it from, I had to do some digging, and found it at CT 53. I found nothing in that text that asserted that there exists a kind of distinction that is neither notional nor real. He certainly talks about two kinds of relations, i.e. notional and real, such that the former is a relation that only exists in the mind and the latter is a relation that not only exists in the mind, but also corresponds to something outside of the mind.

    So, perhaps you could be more specific about where I should look for this third kind of distinction?

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  5. Ben:

    There is only a notional difference between God and his attributes. So what? The divine essence is simply God. You must accept it. This quote does not unsay what I have said it has nothing to do with it.

    Then why did you change “the divine essence” to “being the one God”, if there is only a notional difference between them? What did you hope to change if they both refer to one and the same thing, and the only difference between them exists in our minds, and does not correspond to anything outside the mind?

    It is you who are obfuscating your "argument" has no practical or intelligible meaning. It is a category mistake & lazy.

    Nope. It has a meaning and is not a category mistake.

    Well whatever is in the divine essence is God & good luck finding a single Classic Theist & or Trinitarian here who will take you seriously if you claim the divine essence, is not the same as being God.

    I’m not denying it. I agree that the divine essence is God, which is why I do not understand why you changed my premises from “the divine essence” to “being God”. Why did you change it, Ben?

    Except Being Itself is God & the divine essence. My reading clarifies in the realm of Theology yours OTOH obfuscates. It is that simple.

    I agree. Being itself is the divine essence, and the divine essence is God.

    Now, the question is about the divine relations. The divine relations are either notionally distinct from the divine essence, or they are really distinct from the divine essence. If the divine relations are notionally distinct from the divine essence, then what the divine persons have in common is identical to what the divine persons do not have in common, which is a logical contradiction. If the divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence, then the divine relations are really distinct from God, and thus are creatures.

    Or, you can say that whatever distinguishes the divine persons from one another is X, and then the question is whether X is notionally distinct from the divine essence, or is really distinct from the divine essence. If X is notionally distinct from the divine essence, then what the divine persons have in common is identical to what the divine persons do not have in common, which is logically impossible. If X is really distinct from the divine essence, then X is really distinct from God, which means that X is a creature, and thus the divine persons depend upon creation for their principle of distinction, which is impossible.

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  6. How can anything that subsists in the divine essence be a creature? That is like saying an individual being that subsists in the human species must be a reptile. Anything that subsists in the divine essence is God and is only notionally distinct from being God and from being the divine essence.

    I know, it is absurd to claim that “anything that subsists in the divine essence” is “a creature”! But that is what the argument shows. Either X is notionally distinct from God or X is really distinct from God. There is no other option here, and if you have a kind of distinction that is neither notional nor real, then be my guest and describe it, but I think that those two kinds of distinction are mutually exclusive and exhaustive. If X is notionally distinct from God, then you have a logical contradiction, because it is impossible that what is common between the divine persons is identical to what is not common between the divine persons. If X is really distinct from God, then you have a logical contradiction, because X would necessarily be a creature, and thus the real distinction between the divine persons would depend upon a creature.

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  7. In my view, the disagreement stems from differing views of analogy. dguller's version has a strong "univocal component," for lack of a better term, whereby the distinctions that apply to creaturely existence also apply to the divine, hence he argues that the trinity must be understood as either as involving a real distinction or a notional one, each of which violates the doctrine. Christianity, however, do not adhere to such an understanding. Therefore, there may be relations--such as one of persons--within God that do not conflict with the doctrine of divine simplicity.

    This, it seems to me, is the issue in question, and it will do no good to continue arguing this matter without discussing analogy because each position assumes a different view of it. Until that is resolved, dguller will just continue on insisting that one of those two relations will need to be applied to the trinity, while others will insist that there is another way of grasping the matter. In effect, both sides will be talking past one another with absolutely no progress made for another 200 posts.

    As for Michael, I find it positively delightful that he kept insisting that dguller's position was transparently clear and dispositive, but was quite confused when he tried to phrase it in his own words. It's an exemplary example of the reasoning of the open theism movement, which is neither Christian nor reasonable.

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  8. In my view, the disagreement stems from differing views of analogy. dguller's version has a strong "univocal component," for lack of a better term, whereby the distinctions that apply to creaturely existence also apply to the divine, hence he argues that the trinity must be understood as either as involving a real distinction or a notional one, each of which violates the doctrine. Christianity, however, do not adhere to such an understanding. Therefore, there may be relations--such as one of persons--within God that do not conflict with the doctrine of divine simplicity.

    This, it seems to me, is the issue in question, and it will do no good to continue arguing this matter without discussing analogy because each position assumes a different view of it. Until that is resolved, dguller will just continue on insisting that one of those two relations will need to be applied to the trinity, while others will insist that there is another way of grasping the matter. In effect, both sides will be talking past one another with absolutely no progress made for another 200 posts.

    As for Michael, I find it positively delightful that he kept insisting that dguller's position was transparently clear and dispositive, but was quite confused when he tried to phrase it in his own words. It's an exemplary example of the reasoning of the open theism movement, which is neither Christian nor reasonable.

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  9. dguller

    Since we are citing Aquinas perhaps you would like to read Chapter 21 of Summa Contra Gentiles which is titled That God is His Essence as well as Chapter 22 which is titled as That in God being and essence are the same.

    Thus “whatever is attributed to God is His own essence” (ST 1.40.1) merely means whatever is attributed to God is God.

    If we attribute will to God then the Divine Will is God.

    If we attribute opposing relations to God then God is a Trinity.

    It's not hard. The problem with all of your criticisms is they have no practical application to theology.

    A divine essence that is not God has no meaning.

    How can a being who has the essence of humanity not be the same as being human?

    So I don't understand your objection.

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  10. Anonymous:

    n my view, the disagreement stems from differing views of analogy. dguller's version has a strong "univocal component," for lack of a better term, whereby the distinctions that apply to creaturely existence also apply to the divine, hence he argues that the trinity must be understood as either as involving a real distinction or a notional one, each of which violates the doctrine. Christianity, however, do not adhere to such an understanding. Therefore, there may be relations--such as one of persons--within God that do not conflict with the doctrine of divine simplicity.

    I’m only following the terminology of Aquinas himself. He writes that “in God essence is not really distinct from person” and that “relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking” (ST 1.39.1). Clearly, he is saying that the distinction between the divine persons and the divine essence is notional, i.e. exists “only in our way of thinking”, which is distinguished from real distinction that does not exist “only in our way of thinking”, which means that it also corresponds to something outside of the mind in reality. That’s why it is a real distinction. Notice that this is the exact same way that he describes the notional distinction between goodness and being (“goodness and being are the same really, nevertheless since they differ in thought” (ST 1.5.1)).

    This, it seems to me, is the issue in question, and it will do no good to continue arguing this matter without discussing analogy because each position assumes a different view of it. Until that is resolved, dguller will just continue on insisting that one of those two relations will need to be applied to the trinity, while others will insist that there is another way of grasping the matter. In effect, both sides will be talking past one another with absolutely no progress made for another 200 posts.

    I am just curious what kind of distinction exists that is neither notional nor real. That’s all.

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  11. Ben:

    If God is the divine essence, and vice versa, then why did you change my premises from "the divine essence" to "being God"?

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  12. >Then why did you change “the divine essence” to “being the one God”, if there is only a notional difference between them? What did you hope to change if they both refer to one and the same thing, and the only difference between them exists in our minds, and does not correspond to anything outside the mind?

    By changing it I make it more clear and thus show there is no contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity. The divine person are not distinct by the divine essence. Both are equally the One True God but distinct to one another as divine persons and that distinction is a mystery.

    >Nope. It has a meaning and is not a category mistake.

    I am a Trinitarian Christian and it has no meaning to me based on my understanding of the doctrines of the Catholic faith. From it I can see no coherent charge of contradiction. It might make sense to you but then again I have charged you with not understanding the Trinity. I don't think I am alone. Do you reality think Brandon or Scott think you understand it? Do you think Feser would? They are not the jerk I am but they agree with me. It is the understanding we have you must address not the one you think we have.

    >I’m not denying it. I agree that the divine essence is God, which is why I do not understand why you changed my premises from “the divine essence” to “being God”. Why did you change it, Ben?

    Why would I change the question "Who created God?" to "Who created the Uncreated?"? It clears the smoke fog & helps you think like a Trinitarian Christian. You don't have to believe in God to do this(but it would be nice for other reason but I won't go there).

    >Now, the question is about the divine relations. The divine relations are either notionally distinct from the divine essence, or they are really distinct from the divine essence.

    Swap out "divine essence" and replace with "God" & you have your answer. The divine relations are God without distinction. They are only notionally distinct or virtually distinct but whatever the distinction & I don't give a crap about these particulars it is not any type of real distinction not even a mysterious one other the divine essence is made a fourth person and that is heresy.

    What distinguishes the relations/persons is a mystery but it is real.

    >If the divine relations are notionally distinct from the divine essence, then what the divine persons have in common is identical to what the divine persons do not have in common, which is a logical contradiction.

    At this point we should use the term real & not real since I have not yet mastered the differences between virtual distinction vs notional or minor virtual other then knowing none of these are real distinctions.

    What the persons have in common is being God or the divine essence. What they don't have in common is being really distinct persons in God. In God one is not WHO the Other is (which is a real distinction) but One is WHAT the Other is which is not a real distinction.

    I hope this helps. I am threw abusing you dguller…….for now. But don't get too comfortable.

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  13. >If God is the divine essence, and vice versa, then why did you change my premises from "the divine essence" to "being God"?

    see above.

    But I will repeat myself as a courtesy.

    Why would I change the question "Who created God?" to "Who created the Uncreated?"? It clears the smoke fog & helps you think like a Trinitarian Christian. You don't have to believe in God to do this(but it would be nice for other reason but I won't go there).

    You are not thinking like a Trinitarian dguller.

    See above
    January 1, 2014 at 6:15 PM

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  14. dguller, you are conflating multiple issues here: (1) the exegesis of Aquinas' writings on the matter, and (2) the reasonableness of the Trinity. This is also a source of confusion and why this conversation is very messy.

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  15. dguller I am going to leave you here to mull & go play
    Star Wars the Old Republic.

    I will pick this up later.

    Maybe Scott or Anon the Eastern Orthodox guy can pick up the slack.

    Or Glenn.

    Happy New Year.

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  16. I wil deal with this bit for anon. But I don't want to get bogged down. I have Jedi kill!

    >I’m only following the terminology of Aquinas himself. He writes that “in God essence is not really distinct from person” and that “relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking” (ST 1.39.1).

    Merely means the Persons are not really distinct as God.

    >Clearly, he is saying that the distinction between the divine persons and the divine essence is notional, i.e. exists “only in our way of thinking”, which is distinguished from real distinction that does not exist “only in our way of thinking”, which means that it also corresponds to something outside of the mind in reality.

    It means there is no real distinction between the Persons as God. In God they are mysteriously distinct and this distinction between them is real.
    It mandates we use language that denotes this real distinction. The Father is NOT who the Son is & language to show the lack of distinction in essence such as The Father is WHAT the Son is.

    >That’s why it is a real distinction. Notice that this is the exact same way that he describes the notional distinction between goodness and being (“goodness and being are the same really, nevertheless since they differ in thought” (ST 1.5.1)).

    But in God there are mysterious real distinctions that don't physically divide God like pie nor are example of potency being made actual like a thought being generated in a human mind but really exist in God in an incomprehensible way.

    So far that is the best I can do here

    Now I am off to kill Jedi.

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  17. dguller,

    Since you didn’t provide the citation of where you got it from, I had to do some digging, and found it at CT 53.

    CT 53 is part of the larger context of the quote, yes.

    I found nothing in that text that asserted that there exists a kind of distinction that is neither notional nor real.... So, perhaps you could be more specific about where I should look for this third kind of distinction?

    See 2nd para of the prior chapter for, let us say, how real distinction applies in the case of or with respect to God.

    (As I cannot but concur with Anonymous' remark regarding disagreement stemming from differing views of analogy, I will point out that I am responding to the question without also expecting satisfaction as a result on your end.)

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  18. (s/b "CT 53, which contains the quote, is part of the larger context of that quote.")

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  19. See 2nd para of the prior chapter...

    Oops; my bad. That should read the penultimate para of the prior chapter (which is the 2nd para moving back from CT 53).

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  20. Where do you see me going wrong, Glenn? I appreciate feedback.

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  21. Now that the house is quiet and I have had my butt kicked rather hard by a rival Sith Lord I wish to do some more analysis.

    Let's do another re-write.

    >I know, it is absurd to claim that “anything that subsists in the divine essence” is “a creature”!

    No greater Truth & our starting point.

    > But that is what the argument shows. Either subsisting divine relations are not really distinct from God or subsisting relations are really distinct from God. There is no other option here, and if you have a kind of distinction that is neither notional nor real, then be my guest and describe it, but I think that those two kinds of distinction are mutually exclusive and exhaustive.

    I believe virtual and or minor virtual distinctions are not real distinctions either & are no doubt types of notional distinctions since they exist in the mind only and not in reality. But for our purposes let us say either real or not real.

    dguller writes with my changes in bold.
    > If subsisting divine relations are not really distinct from God, then you have a logical contradiction, because it is impossible that what is common between the divine persons is identical to what is not common between the divine persons.

    Here is your category mistake. What they have in common is that because the subsisting divine relations are in God therefore they really are God. What they don't have in common is they are divine relations in God that are opposed to other relations in God in a mysterious but real way. At no time are they outside being God in their mysterious real distinction by opposition and thus not God.

    Thus your criticism is a category mistake. What is not identical is the predications in different categories. This is analogous to saying two human persons are the same species, human, but distinct persons one to one another. It is impossible for two human beings to not be the same species human. It is not possible for two human beings to be one human being.

    In a like analogous manner.

    It is impossible for The Father and the Son who both subsist in God not to both be the one God. It is impossible for the Father and Son to be the same divine person in God and not really distinct persons in a mysterious way. By not confusing the categories it shows that your problem is a non-problem.

    Thus there is still no contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity.

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  22. After these preliminaries we shall consider how St. Thomas proved the commonly accepted doctrine that the real relations in God are not really distinct from the divine essence but are distinguished from it only by reason.
    -Garrigou-Lagrange

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  23. Anonymous,

    Where do you see me going wrong, Glenn? I appreciate feedback.

    I'm not sure how I might have given the impression that I see you going wrong.

    The one thing I can think of is my having said, "...I cannot but concur..." This, however, is an idiomatic locution, and is a stronger, more emphatic way of saying "I concur".

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  24. Mea culpa, Glenn, my reading of your comment must have been too cursory.

    dguller, Ben has answered your question. You just don't find the answer "logical" because of your understanding of analogy (or "divine names"). Neither Ben, nor Glenn, nor I will alter our respective responses because we don't share your understanding of analogy. One just cannot simply apply the same categories of finite reality to God. He is not simply an infinite quantity of "stuff" in contrast to the "stuff" of finite reality; but he constitutes a different order of "existence." In Him, there is no distinction between essence and existence--and that's not just Aquinas, but, mutatis mutandis, Plotinus, too--He is pure act; He is beyond being in the sense that he is unlike finite being and impossible to be objectified by a finite human consciousness; He is Subsistent Being Itself in the sense that he is absolute and bestows being on contingent beings; and He is also metaphysically simple and Oneness itself. What on earth possesses you to think that the exact same kind of relations must apply to God as that which applies to finite being? Why must the rules hold absolutely in this respect when it doesn't in the other? We don't say that God is a species in a genus. Why must we say that God must be understood in terms or real or notional distinctions only? God's "existence"--which we can't even properly call "existence" to begin with--is not like our own. To hold that God must be predicated of univocally to creaturely reality in respect to his distinctions seems quite odd to me given the above.

    I'm not done by the way, next post I will up the ante with a quotation from David Schindler, a philosopher at Villanova University. In short, he argues that while varieties of Platonism (and Aristotelianism) can account for the unity of things, it cannot account for the principle of differentiation because such is intrinsically lacking to ultimate reality. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity, however, while it cannot be deduced by reason, can account for such--and is ultimately required for a sound principle of differentiation and of a participatory ontology.

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  25. "But the affirmation of this identity of identity both prior to and posterior to difference leads philosophical reflection further than it is accustomed, perhaps, to go, and in some sense leads it in fact beyond itself. The absolute identity of God cannot be the absence of difference but must somehow be simultaneous with it. While this simultaneity cannot simply be deduced from natural evidences, we find it, as it were, surprisingly revealed in the doctrine of the Trinity. Looking at this mystery from a metaphysical perspective, as for example Gustav Siewerth does, we have the perfect coincidence of act and subsistence, i.e., being as pure act, which nonetheless subsists perfectly in the hypostases of the Persons. Though there is an identity between the divine nature and the hypostases, they are at the same time not simply the same. Looking at the mystery more explicitly theologically, we may attend specifically to the “not” that distinguishes the Persons in their shared identity. If we try to preserve the simplicity of God by imagining this “not” to be so slight as to be ultimately negligeable, we will invariably end up betraying God’s unity precisely to the extent that we hold onto this “not” at all, or betraying the incommunicability of Personhood precisely to the extent that we don’t hold on to it. In other words, we pit unity and difference against one another dialectically, which is just what the doctrine of the Trinity forbids. We do more justice to the mystery to think of the “not” as infinite, and only thus as sufficiently vast, as it were, for the Father to unfold himself generously and generatingly to the Son without remainder, so that they can be perfectly one in being, as a mystery of love, and thus as perfectly united in the Person of the Spirit. It is this trinitarian mystery that finally justifies the infinite variety of structures of participation within the created order, for here we have an Other, the Son, who participates, so to speak, in the Father’s being, not at all as a defective copy, but as Perfect Image, and thus as an Other to the Father who, as “not” the Father and in this sense as more than just the Father alone, is by that very token also perfectly equal to Him, an expression not of himself but of the Father’s love. Participation, and the difference that lies within it, thus becomes not simply a figure of created being in opposition to the first principle but the very reality of the first principle itself. In other words, participation, being an image and therefore not one’s own source, is no longer simply that which marks the difference between the creature and God, as it necessarily seems to in religions and philosophies outside of trinitarian Christianity, because now God, too, “participates” in God: the Son and the Spirit “share” in God’s being! “Image,” in Christianity, is not posterior to the divine, but belongs to the divine mystery itself. With this we have a rich and fruitful way to understand Aquinas’s affirmation that creation is rooted in the procession of the Persons, and that we cannot understand it adequately without reference to the Trinity. . . ."

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  26. "In conclusion, we might say that, if the metaphysics of participation is essential to Christianity, Christianity is in turn essential to the metaphysics of participation: for, the difference Christianity makes to this notion is just that: difference. In other words, the difference in God quite literally makes all the difference in the world. It is because the difference in created being is not simply the dialectical opposite of the divine identity that metaphysical reflection within the Christian difference can say not only with Plotinus that God gives precisely what is other than himself, but also that God gives a share in what he is. The otherness that God gives in the gift of esse is not outside of God but is somehow paradoxically “part” of who God is. Thus, however much the being of God is beyond worldly being, it remains the case that God exists, and indeed that being is in some sense his most proper name.

    And this last point illuminates the significance of a final difference from Plotinus, and indeed from any philosophy that refuses the name of being to God. If God gives what is absolutely other than himself, or simply what he is not, namely, being, then no matter how perfectly generous we may conceive that originating gift, I submit that we will never be able fully to eradicate a sense of regret from the roots of things, even though of course that regret is never, in Plotinus or Plato, without an accent of wonder and gratitude. The ultimate and prevailing “mood” of Neoplatonic metaphysics is nevertheless nostalgia. In Christianity, by contrast, participation is first and foremost pervaded by joy, which includes but surpasses metaphysical nostalgia: the things that share in being are set free in the present, and open, in hope, to what is to come."

    --"What's the Difference? On the Metaphysics of Participation in a Christian Context" by David C. Schindler

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  27. Ben:

    Here is your category mistake. What they have in common is that because the subsisting divine relations are in God therefore they really are God. What they don't have in common is they are divine relations in God that are opposed to other relations in God in a mysterious but real way. At no time are they outside being God in their mysterious real distinction by opposition and thus not God.

    There is no category mistake. You say that what the divine persons have in common is that “they really are God”, and what the divine persons do not have in common is that they are different divine relations in God. Since we both agree that what the divine persons share in common cannot be identical to what the divine persons do not share in common, then it follows that being God cannot be identical to being different divine relations in God. Therefore, being God is really distinct from being different divine relations in God, because if a distinction between A and B is not notional, then it must be real. And that means that being different divine relations in God must be a creature, which we both agree is absurd. So, whether you affirm that being God is notionally distinct or really distinct from being different divine relations in God, you have a contradiction.

    Once again, whenever you set up a distinction between Being itself (or the divine essence or God) and that which accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons, whatever you want to say that is, then you must affirm that this distinction is either notional or real, because those are the only two kinds of distinction. And no matter what kind of distinction you affirm, you end up with a contradiction of some kind.

    There is no category mistake. There is only what the divine persons have in common (i.e. Being itself, or being God, or the divine essence) and what they do not have in common (i.e. being different divine relations, or X, or whatever), and two kinds of distinctions (i.e. notional or real). That’s all I need for my argument to work, and since you have not rejected either of these premises as false, my argument seems to arrive at a true conclusion.

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  28. Glenn:

    See 2nd para of the prior chapter for, let us say, how real distinction applies in the case of or with respect to God.

    I presume you mean the following:

    “As is clear from our discussion, every intellect has this in common, that what is conceived in the intellect must in some way proceed from the knower, so far as he is knowing; and in its procession it is to some extent distinct from him, just as the conception of the intellect, which is the intellectual likeness, is distinct from the knowing intellect. Similarly the affection of the lover, whereby the beloved is in the lover, must proceed from the will of the lover so far as he is loving. But the divine intellect has this exclusive perfection: since God’s understanding is His existence, His intellectual conception, which is the intelligible likeness, must be His substance; and the case is similar with affection in God, regarded as loving. Consequently the representation of the divine intellect, which is God’s Word, is distinct from Him who produces the Word, not with respect to substantial existence, but only according to the procession of one from the other. And in God considered as loving, the same is true of the affection of love, which pertains to the Spirit.”

    I don’t see how this helps matters.

    Say we have a distinction in our mind between A and B. There are only two logical possibilities here that are mutually exclusive. Either that distinction only exists in our mind and does not correspond to anything outside of our mind (i.e. is a notional distinction), or that distinction exists both in our minds and corresponds to something outside of our mind (i.e. is a real distinction). To deny both of these possibilities is to embrace a logical contradiction, because to deny either X or not-X is to affirm X and not-X.

    In the above passage, he contrasts knowing and loving in a human being to knowing and loving in God, and specifically analyzes the knowing relation. In a human being, there is a real distinction between a “knowing intellect” and “the conception of the intellect”, but in God, there cannot be a real distinction between them, because of divine simplicity, which means that any distinction in our minds between a “knowing intellect” and “the conception of the intellect” (i.e. the Word) must be a notional distinction, because they are both one and the same “thing” (i.e. “substance”). But then he muddles matters by writing that there is a real distinction between the “knowing intellect” and the Word “only according to the procession of one from the other”. So, there is both a notional distinction and a real distinction between the divine intellect and the Word, which is logically impossible, because either they are both one and the same thing, or they are not.

    Now, one way for this account to be logically consistent is by taking advantage of Ben’s mysterious real distinctions within God. Say that there is God, and that within God, there is the divine intellect and the Word. One could say that the divine intellect and the Word are one and the same thing in that they are both in God, and one could say that the divine intellect and the Word are really distinct in that they are different “parts” of God. Similarly, an athlete might say that he is the team, but he is only speaking figuratively, because what he literally means is that he is an essential part of the team. So, when one says that the divine intellect is notionally distinct from the Word, one is speaking figuratively, and when one says that the divine intellect is really distinct from the Word, then one is speaking literally, or vice versa.

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  29. But this option isn’t open to Aquinas. He says that if X is in God, then X is God, and not in the figurative sense that X is an essential “part” or aspect of God, but rather quite literally that X is fully and totally identical to God. In other words, “X” and “God” are just different names for the exact same thing, and the only difference between them exists in our mental conceptions. And if that is true, then “X” and “God” cannot be simultaneously notionally and really distinct, because to say that they differ from each other in some way in reality means that they cannot possibly be notionally distinct, which just means that they do not differ in any way in reality.

    So, once again, there is only notional and real distinction, and the passage that you cited just tries to muddle the two into an incoherent mess, as far as I can tell. To say that A and B are notionally distinct in one sense but really distinct in another sense makes no sense at all, if one is speaking literally. If they are really distinct, then in reality, they differ from another in some way, which necessarily means that they cannot be notionally distinct, unless you are speaking figuratively, of course.

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  30. Hi dguller,

    Briefly: what Catholics maintain is that the terms "identical" and "distinct" are domain-specific. That is, we need to specify in advance what domain of individuals we are talking about.

    Let me try using first-order predicate calculus. Suppose our domain is the set of Divine persons. This set has three members. Each of them is really distinct.

    However, the set of Divine beings has only one member: God. Each of the three Divine persons is only notionally distinct from this Being.

    I agree that "the Father" and "God" cannot simultaneously be notionally and really distinct. But it's quite consistent to say that the Father is notionally distinct from God but really distinct from the Son.

    There is a notional distinction between God and His act of knowing, but there is a real distinction between God as knower and God as known.

    As far as I can tell, the foregoing account is consistent.

    If it helps matters, you might want to say that God is intrinsically "tripolar." That's what the doctrine of the Trinity is really all about.

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  31. >then it follows that being God cannot be identical to being different divine relations in God. Therefore, being God is really distinct from being different divine relations in God, because if a distinction between A and B is not notional, then it must be real.

    Dude I am not going to get mad thought it is kind of jaw drop how you just don't get it. I am just going to say your response contains no rational counter argument just an Ad Hoc dismissal of my points & of the doctrine.

    Being God and being distinct divine relations that are subsisting in God are identical as being God or Being Itself. That is the point of the doctrine of the Trinity.

    At this point I don't understand your counter objection in light of my rebuttal.

    Your argument is a category mistake the moral equivalent of saying two human beings can't be distinct persons yet the same identical species.

    VJ will back me up here. He has clearly read enough Sheed & Aquinas to be on the same page as the rest of us.

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  32. dguller

    You are re-writing doctrine again. It is better to call the persons "distinct" since different implies other gods.

    Grammar of the Trinity dude.

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  33. >Now, one way for this account to be logically consistent is by taking advantage of Ben’s mysterious real distinctions within God. Say that there is God, and that within God, there is the divine intellect and the Word. One could say that the divine intellect and the Word are one and the same thing in that they are both in God, and one could say that the divine intellect and the Word are really distinct in that they are different “parts” of God.

    Maybe there is something here we can work with but we have to smooth the rough edges and bad theology and philosophy with some corrective negative theology.

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  34. Anonymous:

    dguller, you are conflating multiple issues here: (1) the exegesis of Aquinas' writings on the matter, and (2) the reasonableness of the Trinity. This is also a source of confusion and why this conversation is very messy.

    Let’s just keep clear what I’m arguing. I am not saying that the Trinity in all its doctrinal formulations is incoherent. My argument is only that the Thomist account of the Trinity is incoherent. I haven’t looked at any other formulations. And Aquinas’ writings on the matter are certainly relevant to whether the Thomist account of the Trinity is reasonable or not.

    One just cannot simply apply the same categories of finite reality to God. He is not simply an infinite quantity of "stuff" in contrast to the "stuff" of finite reality; but he constitutes a different order of "existence."

    Are the categories that we apply to God that are rooted in the finite order of creation totally inapplicable to God or only partly inapplicable? If they are totally inapplicable, then you cannot have an analogy between creation and God at all, and are left with radical agnosticism and negative theology akin to Maimonides’ theology. If they are only partly inapplicable, then they are also partly applicable, and the question is which parts are applicable, and particularly whether the distinction between notional and real distinction is applicable to God. Certainly, Aquinas uses it all the time, and so I find it doubtful that he would say that it is inapplicable to God.

    What on earth possesses you to think that the exact same kind of relations must apply to God as that which applies to finite being? Why must the rules hold absolutely in this respect when it doesn't in the other?

    Because something must be applicable to both God and creation in order for there to be a likeness relation between them, and I think that would have to include the laws of logic. Otherwise, why else would rational theology be possible? Why else would it be impossible for God to create that which is logically impossible, unless the laws of logic were applicable to God. And it is because the laws of logic are applicable to God that we can say that God is either material or immaterial, that God is either composite or non-composite, and that distinctions in God are either notional or not notional (i.e. real). To reject this position would admit the possibility that maybe God is material and composite, but in some mysterious fashion that is different in some way from matter and composition in the created realm. Furthermore, to reject this position would be to admit logical contradictions within God that are mysteriously resolved, and also to make any assertions or denials impossible, which would result in silence and an empty mind.

    Why must we say that God must be understood in terms or real or notional distinctions only?

    Because they are mutually exclusive and logically comprehensive. Why would we say that God must be understood in terms of composition or non-composition? Why would we say that God must be understood as material or immaterial? Because those are the only options, on pain of logical contradiction. To say that it is false that “X or not-X” is just another way of saying that it is true that “X and not-X”.

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  35. --"What's the Difference? On the Metaphysics of Participation in a Christian Context" by David C. Schindler

    I’ll have to read the entire article to get a better sense of the quotation that you cited, but offhand, it seems to repeat many of the assertions that I find to be utterly incoherent. For example, he writes the following:

    “The absolute identity of God cannot be the absence of difference but must somehow be simultaneous with it.”

    This seems precisely to violate the principle that what A and B have in common cannot be identical to what A and B do not have in common. So, if the divine persons have “the absolute identity of God” in common, then that which distinguishes them from one another cannot “somehow be simultaneous with it”. Otherwise, there is nothing that accounts for the distinction between the divine persons, which means that they are not distinct at all.

    He also writes:

    “Though there is an identity between the divine nature and the hypostases, they are at the same time not simply the same.”

    To me, this just means that the divine nature and the divine persons are partly the same and partly different, i.e. they have something in common and something not in common. The former is they are all God by virtue of being the divine essence, and the latter is whatever distinguishes them as distinct divine persons. But they cannot be entirely the same, and partly different, because that is just incoherent.

    Like I said, I’ll have to read and reflect upon the whole article, because it is incredible rich, but given my limited exposure to it, I have to say that he does not really escape the problems that he nicely outlines in the beginning of the article: “Thus, the question of accounting for difference in the structure of participation seems in the end to yield four possible outcomes: either nihilism, nihilism, nihilism, or nihilism”. I would have to agree with that, but I’ll read the article more closely to see if he can actually overcome this tremendous problem and justify the conclusion that you cited.

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  36. Ben:

    Being God and being distinct divine relations that are subsisting in God are identical as being God or Being Itself. That is the point of the doctrine of the Trinity.

    If we say that “being God” is X and “being distinct divine relations that are subsisting in God” is Y, then you are saying that being X and being Y are identical as being X. Yes, being X is identical as being X. That makes sense. But saying that being X is also identical to being Y is only true if being X is being Y. In other words, you would have to be claiming that “being X” and “being Y” are just two different terms for one and the same thing, and that their only distinction is in our minds, which means that they are notionally distinct. And in that case, being God and being distinct divine relations that are subsisting in God are just two different ways of describing the exact same thing, and thus are notionally distinct. If the former is what the divine persons have in common and the latter is what the divine persons do not have in common, then if being God and being distinct divine relations that are subsisting in God are just two different ways of describing the exact same thing, then you have the logical contradiction that what the divine persons have in common is identical to what the divine persons do not have in common. So, your reformulation does not refute the argument at all.


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  37. Vincent:

    Each of the three Divine persons is only notionally distinct from this Being.

    And the question is what distinguishes the divine persons from one another, which can be the different origins, the different processions, the different relations, or whatever. Just to simply things, you can just call whatever distinguishes the divine persons from one another, X. Now, X is either notionally distinct or really distinct from the divine essence (or Being itself, or divine being, or God himself). Those are the only kinds of distinction, after all, and thus the distinction between X and the divine essence must be either notional or real.

    If it is notional, then it follows that X is the divine essence, and they are different terms for one and the same thing. Any distinction between X and the divine essence only exists in the mind, and does not correspond to anything outside the mind in reality. But Aquinas has written that “[t]hat which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction” (QDV 8.8), and that “[i]n whatever multitude of things is to be found something common to all, it is necessary to seek out the principle of distinction” (ST 1.40.2). So, if the divine essence is “the principle of unity” and what is “common to all” the divine persons, then it cannot possibly be identical to X, which is “the principle of distinction”. Otherwise, you have the logical contradiction that what is common between the divine persons is identical to what is not common to the divine persons, which is impossible. Thus, the distinction between X and the divine essence cannot be notional, and must be real.

    But if the distinction between them is real, then it follows that X is not the divine essence, and not Being itself, and thus not God. In other words, the distinction between them not only exists in the mind, but also corresponds to something outside of the mind and in reality. But if X is not God, then X is a creation of God, and if X is not Being itself, then X participates in Being itself. And then you have the absurdity that the principle of distinction of the divine persons is a created being, which is impossible.

    Therefore, the distinction between X and the divine essence is neither notional nor real, which is also impossible, because those are the only kinds of distinction that are possible.

    So, no matter what you do, without rejecting some key premise or assumption, you are stuck with absurdities and contradictions. The question is which premise or assumption we must reject in order to avoid this wasp’s nest of incoherence.

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  38. dguller,

    I don’t see how this helps matters.

    I can see that you don't see it:

    >> Say we have a distinction in our mind between A and B.
    >> There are only two logical possibilities here that are
    >> mutually exclusive. Either that distinction only exists in
    >> our mind and does not correspond to anything outside of
    >> our mind (i.e. is a notional distinction), or that distinction
    >> exists both in our minds and corresponds to something
    >> outside of our mind (i.e. is a real distinction). To deny both
    >> of these possibilities is to embrace a logical contradiction,
    >> because to deny either X or not-X is to affirm X and not-X.

    This:

    a) is further evidence of an intractable fidelity to fallacious either-or reasoning; and,

    b) lends support to what was earlier said, namely that the difficulty you have is with something in your own mind.

    It is -- of course! -- not logically impossible that an actual real distinction may be in something which is outside our minds. Period. Full stop. And it is in no way necessitated that its existence must be such that it is only, merely or simply as a correspondent of something which is in our minds.

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  39. Anonymous,

    Mea culpa, Glenn, my reading of your comment must have been too cursory.

    I had started with "I concur with...", but then thought, "No, I want to convey how strongly I concur," and so switched to the other phrasing -- but without realizing the potential of that phrasing to trip up a reader. My apologies.

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  40. Glenn:

    a) is further evidence of an intractable fidelity to fallacious either-or reasoning

    The only way to show that an either-or dichotomy is fallacious is to present another possible option, which you have yet to provide.

    It is -- of course! -- not logically impossible that an actual real distinction may be in something which is outside our minds. Period. Full stop.

    Agreed. And?

    And it is in no way necessitated that its existence must be such that it is only, merely or simply as a correspondent of something which is in our minds.

    Agreed. And?

    The issue here is that we start with a distinction in our minds between the divine essence and the principle of distinction that distinguishes the divine persons from one another, which we can just call X. The question is whether this distinction in our minds also corresponds to something outside of our minds, or whether this distinction in our minds is only in our minds. In other words, we have the following mutually exclusive and logically exhaustive possibilities:

    (1) The distinction in question is in our minds and only in our minds
    (2) The distinction in question is in our minds and also corresponds to something outside of our minds

    I believe that (1) and (2) are the only possibilities, and you accuse me of an either-or fallacy. The solution is to present another possibility:

    (3) The distinction in question is in our minds and … ?

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  41. Hi dguller,

    You write:

    "Just to simply things, you can just call whatever distinguishes the divine persons from one another, X. Now, X is either notionally distinct or really distinct from the divine essence... [T]hus the distinction between X and the divine essence must be either notional or real."

    You're already talking nonsense. If X is "whatever distinguishes the divine persons from one another," then "the distinction between X and the divine essence" would have to mean "the distinction between whatever distinguishes the divine persons from one another and the divine essence." That sounds like gibberish to me.

    I know what the distinction between the Divine persons means. That distinction is grounded in the oppositional relations within the Divine essence, of knower vs. known and lover vs. beloved. I know what the distinction between the Divine persons and the Divine essence is. That distinction is the notional distinction between God as knower-lover (or in the Son's case, God as known, or in the Holy Spirit's case, God as love) and God as such: a Being Who knows and loves Himself perfectly. But it's meaningless to talk about the distinction between the distinction between the persons, and the Divine essence. So your syllogism breaks down right there.

    You continue:

    "If it is notional, then it follows that X is the divine essence, and they are different terms for one and the same thing. ...But Aquinas has written that '[t]hat which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction' (QDV 8.8), and that '[i]n whatever multitude of things is to be found something common to all, it is necessary to seek out the principle of distinction' (ST 1.40.2). So, if the divine essence is 'the principle of unity' and what is 'common to all' the divine persons, then it cannot possibly be identical to X, which is "the principle of distinction.'"

    First of all, be careful: God is not a thing, but an activity. What's more, God is a tripolar activity: knowing-loving, which implies the existence of a knower/lover, its self-knowledge and its self-love.

    Second, I'm not claiming that the principle of unity between the persons is the principle of distinction between them. The principle of unity between the persons is simply the activity of knowing-loving. And the principle of real distinction between the persons is the oppositional relations that characterize this three-way activity. That's all there is to say, really.

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  42. Vincent:

    You're already talking nonsense. If X is "whatever distinguishes the divine persons from one another," then "the distinction between X and the divine essence" would have to mean "the distinction between whatever distinguishes the divine persons from one another and the divine essence." That sounds like gibberish to me.

    But it isn’t. Say that you have A and B. A is really distinct from B. There must be something about A (or B) that distinguishes it from B (or A). For example, take the Father and the Son. They are really distinct from one another, and thus there must be something about the Father that distinguishes him from the Son. And there is. The father is unbegotten, and the Son is begotten. Being begotten is the “something” in question, which would correspond to what Aquinas calls “the principle of distinction”. Now, one can certainly and meaningfully ask whether being begotten is notionally or really distinct from the divine essence. In other words, does the distinction between them exist only in our minds, or does it also exist outside the mind in reality?

    First of all, be careful: God is not a thing, but an activity. What's more, God is a tripolar activity: knowing-loving, which implies the existence of a knower/lover, its self-knowledge and its self-love.

    Aquinas used the word “thing”, so your criticism is more appropriately directed towards him. But I think that he was not specifically talking about composite entities, but rather generally about an existing individual something.

    Second, I'm not claiming that the principle of unity between the persons is the principle of distinction between them. The principle of unity between the persons is simply the activity of knowing-loving. And the principle of real distinction between the persons is the oppositional relations that characterize this three-way activity. That's all there is to say, really.

    That’s all fine and good. But if “the activity of knowing-loving” is notionally distinct from Being itself, then it would have to follow that “the oppositional relations that characterize this three-way activity” would have to participate in Being itself, and thus be created being, which is absurd.

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  43. And it is in no way necessitated that its existence must be such that it is only, merely or simply as a correspondent of something which is in our minds.

    Agreed. And?


    Okay. You now agree that the fallacious either/or fails. Good.

    (Btw, this is it for me for now; picking up a relative at the airport soon, and with this, that and the other thing, not sure when I'll be able to return here.)

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  44. @dguller

    >If we say that “being God” is X and “being distinct divine relations that are subsisting in God” is Y, then you are saying that being X and being Y are identical as being X. Yes, being X is identical as being X. That makes sense.

    If you would read Chapters 21 & 22 of Summa Contra Gentiles Book One you would know that because in God there is no real distinction between Essence and Being(metaphysical simplicity) it is possible to say God subsists in Himself.

    Thus I can say X subsists in Y as you defined above & I can also say Y subsists in X.

    We can't say that with created things whose essence and existence are really distinct.

    I can say as a human being I am a member of the human species but it is absurd to say the human species is a member of me or a member of my human being.

    Like I said category mistakes all around. With all due respect I agree with VJ your re-formulated objection is gibberish.

    I also noticed you have now reformulated X well then I will deal with that later.

    Cheers.

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  45. Glenn:

    And it is in no way necessitated that its existence must be such that it is only, merely or simply as a correspondent of something which is in our minds.

    Agreed. And?

    Okay. You now agree that the fallacious either/or fails. Good.


    I see where my mistake was. There is an equivocation in your statement.

    By “it”, I took you to mean “an actual real distinction”. And that means that you claimed that it is not necessarily true that the existence of an actual real distinction between A and B is “only, merely or simply as a correspondent of something which is in our minds”. In one sense, that is true, and in another sense, that is false. If we are talking about a reality outside of our minds, then it is true that the real distinction would exist irrespective of whether minds existed or not. However, if we are talking about a distinction that exists in our minds, and whether it also corresponds to something outside of our minds, then there must be a correspondence between the former and the latter.

    Anyway, none of that changes my argument, and none of that changes the fact that you have yet, despite numerous requests from myself, described a third alternative to notional and real distinction, which is the only thing that you can do to demonstrate that my either-or is fallacious.

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  46. Ben:

    If you would read Chapters 21 & 22 of Summa Contra Gentiles Book One you would know that because in God there is no real distinction between Essence and Being(metaphysical simplicity) it is possible to say God subsists in Himself.

    I know. What does that have to do with my argument?

    Thus I can say X subsists in Y as you defined above & I can also say Y subsists in X.

    Sort of. It would be better to say that X is subsistent Y itself and Y is subsistent X itself. But I see your point. What does that have to do with my argument?

    We can't say that with created things whose essence and existence are really distinct.

    I know. What does that have to do with my argument?

    I can say as a human being I am a member of the human species but it is absurd to say the human species is a member of me or a member of my human being.

    I know. What does that have to do with my argument?

    With all due respect I agree with VJ your re-formulated objection is gibberish.

    It isn’t. Aquinas himself says that the principle of distinction of the divine persons is really distinct from the divine essence at ST 1.40.2:

    “In whatever multitude of things is to be found something common to all, it is necessary to seek out the principle of distinction. So, as the three persons agree in the unity of essence, we must seek to know the principle of distinction whereby they are several. Now, there are two principles of difference between the divine persons, and these are "origin" and "relation."”

    He clearly identifies the principle of unity as the divine essence, and he clearly identifies the principle of distinction as either origin or relation. And the reason why “it is necessary to seek out the principle of distinction” when one finds in a “multitude of things” “something common to all” is because this “something common to all” cannot be the “principle of distinction”. He writes elsewhere that “[t]hat which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction” (QDV 8.8). In other words, as you yourself agree, what the divine persons have in common cannot be identical to what the divine persons do not have in common. If they have the divine essence in common (i.e. the principle of unity) and their principle of distinction is the difference origins or relations, or whatever, then the former cannot be identical to the latter, and must be really distinct. If they weren’t really distinct, then you have a contradiction.

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  47. My only response dguller is you keep moving the goal posts of your "argument" so that I can't for the life of me see it as anything other than gibberish.

    >It isn’t. Aquinas himself says that the principle of distinction of the divine persons is really distinct from the divine essence at ST 1.40.2:

    You read this novel concept/conclusion of yours INTO Aquinas but that is not how we Catholics understand him.
    Aquinas clearly says there is no real distinction between divine relations and divine essence.
    ST 1.40.2 taken at face value doesn't un-say that.


    >He clearly identifies the principle of unity as the divine essence(i.e.being God), and he clearly identifies the principle of distinction as either origin or relation(being distinct persons one to another in God).

    I am not really clear what it is you think the Principle of distinction is suppose to do for you here to show your alleged contradiction?

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  48. “In whatever multitude of things is to be found something common to all, it is necessary to seek out the principle of distinction. So, as the three persons agree in the unity of essence, we must seek to know the principle of distinction whereby they are several. Now, there are two principles of difference between the divine persons, and these are "origin" and "relation."”ST 1.40.2

    See taken at face value and harmonized with the rest of doctrine there is nothing in the above text that tells me positively the divine relations are really distinct from the essence nor does it negate the divine relations being distinct from the divine essence only in reason.

    Your argument still makes no sense .

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  49. Anonymous,

    You wrote,

    As for Michael, I find it positively delightful that he kept insisting that dguller's position was transparently clear and dispositive, but was quite confused when he tried to phrase it in his own words. It's an exemplary example of the reasoning of the open theism movement, which is neither Christian nor reasonable.

    A few comments in response:

    1. I am sad you positively delight in anyone, especially a fellow Christian, making a mistake.

    2. Being confused about dguller's argument is one thing and accurately restating is another. His argument is crystal clear, as I have maintained from the beginning. I have never been confused about the argument, but I did fail to perfectly restate it because I wrote too hastily, sacrificing precision.

    3. You yourself provided an example of misunderstanding a simple sentence from Glenn ("Mea culpa, Glenn, my reading of your comment must have been too cursory"), but I would not cite your misunderstanding as "an exemplary example of the reasoning" of thomists and other classical theists, for that would be uncharitable and silly.

    4. Only by ruling out the teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the many Christians who hold with those Scriptures that the future is largely open to God can you assert dogmatically that the open theism movement is "neither Christian nor reasonable."

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  50. dguller

    Above you wrote,

    I agree. Being itself is the divine essence, and the divine essence is God.

    So do you also believe that God is absolutely simple? Is his self identical to his acts?

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  51. Michael

    Catholic & Eastern Orthodox believe in Scripture and Apostolic Tradition and the basic conclusions of Natural Theology and Classic Theism.

    They also condemn Open Theism as heresy.

    So we are really not on the same page.

    dguller is trying to put his objects in Classic Theist term.

    He is failing in a mightily way IMHO. But you my friend are reading a different book.

    Peace of Christ to you.

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  52. @Michael

    "2. Being confused about dguller's argument is one thing and accurately restating is another. His argument is crystal clear, as I have maintained from the beginning. I have never been confused about the argument, but I did fail to perfectly restate it because I wrote too hastily, sacrificing precision."

    No, you agreed with his conclusion. You in know way, shape, or form understood his argument. Which is why your "restatement" of it was utterly lacking. There's no shame in this, but the fact of the matter is you were very confused in regards to dguller's argument.

    Also, keep in mind dguller does claim to hold to some form of classical theism. I'm guessing (forgive me if I'm wrong dguller) he'd take issue with open theism as much as the traditional Christian does.

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  53. @Michael

    > Only by ruling out the teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the many Christians who hold with those Scriptures that the future is largely open to God can you assert dogmatically that the open theism movement is "neither Christian nor reasonable."

    Catholics and Eastern Orthodox reject Sola Scriptura, private interpretation of Scripture(i.e putting one's own contrary interpretations above that of the Church's rulings) and Luther's novel human tradition of the Perspicuity of Scripture.

    So there is an ocean of difference separating us. We don't even understand Scripture the same way or use it the same way.

    Cheers.

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  54. Sorry, I meant to put my name at the end of that post. I hate dueling anons.

    Eric

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  55. By the way Ben, are you from England?

    Eric

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  56. Ben:

    My only response dguller is you keep moving the goal posts of your "argument" so that I can't for the life of me see it as anything other than gibberish.

    Nope. The goalpost is that one can derive a contradiction on the basis of Thomist assumptions about the Trinity. The contradiction is not between one divine essence and three divine persons, though.

    You read this novel concept/conclusion of yours INTO Aquinas but that is not how we Catholics understand him.
    Aquinas clearly says there is no real distinction between divine relations and divine essence.
    ST 1.40.2 taken at face value doesn't un-say that.


    The bottom line is that Aquinas says that the principle of unity of A and B cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of A and B. Whether he himself drew the conclusion that if the principle of unity of the divine persons is the divine essence, then the principle of distinction of the divine persons must be a creature is irrelevant to whether the conclusion itself is true. I’m sure that he would find the conclusion abhorrent and absurd, but the question is whether the conclusion itself comes from false premises and/or an invalid logical structure. The argument is valid, and the premises are all true, as far as I can see. So, Houston, we have a problem.

    He clearly identifies the principle of unity as the divine essence(i.e.being God), and he clearly identifies the principle of distinction as either origin or relation(being distinct persons one to another in God).

    I am not really clear what it is you think the Principle of distinction is suppose to do for you here to show your alleged contradiction?


    It does not matter what you say the principle of distinction is. If the principle of unity is Being itself, and the principle of distinction cannot be identical to the principle of unity, then the principle of distinction cannot be identical to Being itself, and anything that is not identical to Being itself is a creature. It’s as simple as that, and every reinterpretation that you have provided has not changed this basic dynamic at all.

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  57. >Also, keep in mind dguller does claim to hold to some form of classical theism.

    I noticed dguller said something to that effect but it is still kind of ambiguous. So let us ask him point blank.

    So dguller are you still an Atheist or have you moved toward a
    Classic Theistic deism?


    Just curious.

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  58. >By the way Ben, are you from England?

    >Eric

    Italian Scotish Anglo American & a New Yorker. I just watch a lot of BBC America & before that British TV shows on PBS.

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  59. >Nope. The goalpost is that one can derive a contradiction on the basis of Thomist assumptions about the Trinity. The contradiction is not between one divine essence and three divine persons, though.

    dguller I just told Michael we Catholics & our Orthodox Brothers don't believe in the Perspicuity of Sacred Scripture and we believe that was in the end Inspired by God Almighty.

    We are not going to believe in the perspicuity of Aquinas.

    The bottom line is you are interpreting him in a novel way we don't interpret him. So basically your argument is meaningless to us.

    Also the Trinity isn't argued it is decreed Ad Hoc by revelation and we interpret it to fit.

    You are starting out with the assumption it doesn't fit 7 re-interpreting accordingly.

    As such this argument between us all can never be resolved & your argument will remain meaningless.

    I would believe this even if I denied God's existence tomorrow.

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  60. Michael:

    So do you also believe that God is absolutely simple? Is his self identical to his acts?

    I wouldn’t call him “God” necessarily, but I do believe that the ultimate explanatory principle of reality is simple, which means that its self is identical to its acts. I really struggled with this idea at first, as commenters here will probably remember, but I came to see that once one accepts certain metaphysical assumptions, a classical theistic being of some kind is inevitable.

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  61. @Ben

    Ha ha, I lived there for 4 years so the "cheers" kept grabbing my attention.

    Eric

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  62. Ben:

    So dguller are you still an Atheist or have you moved toward a
    Classic Theistic deism?


    More towards the latter, although I would avoid the religious connotations of “theism” and “deism”. In fact, I wouldn’t call the ultimate explanatory principle of reality “God” at all, but I can certainly see why religious believers would do so.

    The bottom line is you are interpreting him in a novel way we don't interpret him. So basically your argument is meaningless to us.

    Oh well. If you want to accept that the principle of unity of the divine persons is identical to the principle of distinction of the divine persons, then be my guest, but you should know that you are embracing a logical contradiction. After all, you are saying that what the divine persons have in common is identical to what the divine persons do not have in common, which is precisely what you previously stated was impossible, because it is the logical equivalent of asserting that X is not-X. But be my guest, and embrace logical incoherence, if that is your desire.

    Also the Trinity isn't argued it is decreed Ad Hoc by revelation and we interpret it to fit.

    Funny how Aquinas provides arguments galore about the Trinity.

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  63. Anonymous,

    You wrote,

    No, you agreed with his conclusion. You in know [sic] way, shape, or form understood his argument. Which is why your "restatement" of it was utterly lacking. There's no shame in this, but the fact of the matter is you were very confused in regards to dguller's argument.

    Faulty restatement--especially in a blog comment post for crying out loud!!--does not equal misunderstanding. That's simply a non sequitur my friend. Not to mention, it's uncharitable.

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  64. "Faulty restatement--especially in a blog comment post for crying out loud!!--does not equal misunderstanding."

    It wasn't faulty restatement. It was a total misunderstanding. Like I said, it's understandable. Being an open theist puts you at a disadvantage when dialoguing with classical theists. No shame in this. You should at least realize that your "restatement" was so bad, we're left with no other choice but to conclude you misunderstood his argument.

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  65. Ben,

    I could not care less what councils or individual Christians call "heresy." And I don't care for Sola Scriptura either. I am a truth-seeker, plain and simple. I just believe the evidence points toward the Scriptures (and that does not mean every writing in the "Bible"--be it the Catholic Bible, the Protestant Bible, or the Syrian Bible) being writings that are from God in a special way--special revelation from God. So I listen very closely to what they say. And they indicate throughout that God faces a partially open future. Moreover, I believe unaided reason reveals the same thing, as do hosts of philosophers past and present. Indeed, even some thomist philosophers have suggested so (e.g. Van Steenberghen).

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  66. Anonymous,

    You said,

    It wasn't faulty restatement. It was a total misunderstanding. Like I said, it's understandable. Being an open theist puts you at a disadvantage when dialoguing with classical theists. No shame in this. You should at least realize that your "restatement" was so bad, we're left with no other choice but to conclude you misunderstood his argument.

    Anonymous,

    Ah, but you did have a choice whether to conclude I misunderstood the argument, and by saying you "concluded" this you have agreed that faulty restatement does not equal misunderstanding. Faulty restatement may mean misunderstanding, or it may mean something else--like hasty, imprecise description of what one understands. I know my mind, and I know that the latter was the case. It is not becoming of a Christian to treat me uncharitably and mock me as open theist--and to continue doubling down on it. Also, I have not always been an open theist. I was once almost a thomist, and I have read and thought a lot on classical theism. So I am not at the disadvantage you imagine me to be. The reason I did not finally become a thomist and the reason I am an open theist is because I believe the evidence points to the thomist conception of God as false and open theism (that is, the future being partly open to God) as true.

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  67. Dguller,

    You wrote,

    I do believe that the ultimate explanatory principle of reality is simple, which means that its self is identical to its acts.

    Do you believe this ultimate explanatory principle freely created? If so, how can you say that contingent act is identical to the necessary self?

    You continued,

    I really struggled with this idea at first, as commenters here will probably remember, but I came to see that once one accepts certain metaphysical assumptions, a classical theistic being of some kind is inevitable.

    I agree that on certain metaphysical assumptions, it follows that ipsum esse subsistens is the ultimate explanatory principle of reality. But that is evidence enough to me that those metaphysical assumptions cannot be true.

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  68. "I know my mind, and I know that the latter was the case. It is not becoming of a Christian to treat me uncharitably and mock me as open theist--and to continue doubling down on it."

    I know what you wrote, and you misunderstood the argument. I didn't mock. Actually, I went out of my way to say there's no shame in it. I pointed out the fact that as an open theist you seem to be (despite all your reading) quite incapable of dialoguing with the classical theist in a fruitful way. The same can't be said of dguller. Although I disagree with him on many issues, he's proven to have educated himself on classical theism to the point where he is capable of discussing it's finer points in a manner that's thought provoking.

    Now, since you were a "thomist" in days gone by, feel free to engage dguller and show him where exactly he's gone wrong on classical theism.

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  69. Sorry, almost a "thomist"

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  70. >More towards the latter, although I would avoid the religious connotations of “theism” and “deism”. In fact, I wouldn’t call the ultimate explanatory principle of reality “God” at all, but I can certainly see why religious believers would do so.


    As I recall I was the one who told you what you called Deep Reality is what we called God.

    >If you want to accept that the principle of unity of the divine persons is identical to the principle of distinction of the divine persons, then be my guest, but you should know that you are embracing a logical contradiction.

    I can't seem to figure out from you what that means(I am not alone
    see VJ) so I can't see the contradiction.

    At best it looks like to me you are confusing how we predicate God vs what God is as God.

    But outside of that I can't figure out what your objection is or where is the example of X and N-X at the same time in the same sense.

    The Trinity still looks both pretty incomprehensible and pretty none logical contradictory at my end.

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  71. Anonymous,

    You uncharitably "concluded" I misunderstood the argument. And you uncharitably took "positively delight" in that conclusion. And you uncharitably mocked me and all open theists in stating your conclusion and delight.

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  72. >Funny how Aquinas provides arguments galore about the Trinity.

    Technically he gives explanations for how to think of God as a Trinity not arguments.

    By definition the Trinity is beyond mere natural theology and can't be known by human reason.

    Only God threw the Bible, Apostolic Tradition and Church can tell me there are mysterious real relations in the Godhead.

    Or

    Only God/Allah threw the Koran can tell me God is absolute on every level.

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  73. Ben,

    Where do you believe God has in the Bible told you there are mysterious real relations in God?

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  74. >I could not care less what councils or individual Christians call "heresy."

    I do so we have very little ground for discussion.

    Sorry.

    Peace be with you.

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  75. Michael:

    Do you believe this ultimate explanatory principle freely created? If so, how can you say that contingent act is identical to the necessary self?

    It depends upon what you mean by “freely created”. If by “freely created” you mean “created without external constraint”, then yes. But if you mean “could have created otherwise”, then no.

    I agree that on certain metaphysical assumptions, it follows that ipsum esse subsistens is the ultimate explanatory principle of reality. But that is evidence enough to me that those metaphysical assumptions cannot be true.

    And yet those assumptions cannot be coherently denied. Believe me, I’ve tried.

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  76. Ben,

    Yet you discuss God with dguller who is not a Christian and so certainly is not bothered by what Christian councils or individual Christians call "heresy."

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  77. >Where do you believe God has in the Bible told you there are mysterious real relations in God?

    Don't play games with me Micheal. You know what verses I will cite & you already have in your que a set of alternate interpretations of them.

    But the weird thing is you say you don't accept Sola Scriptura(i.e.the Bible as the sole rule of Faith with Church or Tradition) yet you want to argue from the Bible alone?

    That doesn't make sense.

    So like I said we don't have common ground yet.

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  78. dguller,

    So is the created world necessary? In other words, are all things necessary?

    And what are your assumptions that cannot be coherently denied?

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  79. Ben:

    I can't seem to figure out from you what that means(I am not alone
    see VJ) so I can't see the contradiction.


    I mean that it is impossible that what the divine persons share in common is identical to what the divine persons do not share in common. That would be like saying that X is identical to not-X. That is why even Aquinas agrees that the principle of unity (i.e. what A and B have in common) cannot be identical to the principle of distinction (i.e. what A and B do not have in common). It would lead to a logical contradiction to claim that the principle of unity is notionally distinct from the principle of distinction. Aquinas even explicitly makes this very point when he writes that “[t]hat which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction” (QDV 8.8), and that “[i]n whatever multitude of things is to be found something common to all, it is necessary to seek out the principle of distinction” (ST 1.40.2).

    Do you really not see this?

    Technically he gives explanations for how to think of God as a Trinity not arguments.

    What is the difference between an “explanation” and an “argument”?

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  80. "You uncharitably "concluded" I misunderstood the argument. And you uncharitably took "positively delight" in that conclusion"

    I think you have confused me with another anon. The positive delight comment was from the initial anon.

    I'm sorry if you think it's uncharitable when someone points out you have misunderstood an argument.

    I find it refreshing when someone points out my errors. Especially when the individual doing the pointing goes out of their way to say my error was understandable.

    I apologize if you felt demeaned in any way.

    Eric

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  81. >Yet you discuss God with dguller who is not a Christian and so certainly is not bothered by what Christian councils or individual Christians call "heresy."

    dguller has been learning Thomistic Philosophy & Classic Theism.

    It has been like pulling teeth with him & the fact I am a cruel asshole with no patience hasn't helped.

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  82. Ben,

    I'm not playing games with you, and I'm not arguing from the Scriptures alone. I just saw that you said you hold to the trinity dogma in part because you believe God has revealed it in the Bible, so I was curious where in the Bible you believe he has done so.

    There sure is a lot of assumption and non sequitur being thrown around by the thomists here.

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  83. >Do you really not see this?

    I am afraid I don't.

    When you say "What the divine persons share in common" I automatically think "they are the One God without real distinction".

    When you say "What the divine persons do not share in common" I think they are not in God the same Divine Person.

    I fail to see the example of X & Not-X unless I say Three Gods in One God or Three Persons in One Person.

    The principle of unity & the principle of distinction are two different categories of predicating God as far as I can see & I don't see the contradiction.

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  84. Eric,

    No apology necessary, and I'm sorry for the confusion between you and the other anon.

    I do not mind having my errors pointed out, but my error was not a misunderstanding--even if you won't accept that. Dguller corrected me best when he simply said, "That's not my argument." One Scott saracastically mocked me, and so did the anon who said he took positive delight in my faulty representation of dguller's argument which he too assumed reflected a failure on my part to actually understand the argument. Surely we Christians should treat each other as well as dguller treats us.

    Michael

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  85. Michael:

    So is the created world necessary? In other words, are all things necessary?

    The created world is necessary, but not everything in the created world is necessary.

    And what are your assumptions that cannot be coherently denied?

    That there is a distinction between act and potency. That the universe is composed of composite entities that consist of act-potency combinations of various kinds. That potency depends upon act for its existence, as well as for its transition to act. The transition from potency to act requires something else that is in act. This process cannot exist ad infinitum in a per se causal series. Therefore, there must be a first cause that is pure act and simple. That’s the gist of the argument, and I really don’t see how you can coherently deny any of the premises without giving up far more than you may receive in the process.

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  86. Ben:

    When you say "What the divine persons share in common" I automatically think "they are the One God without real distinction".

    To be the one God is to be the divine essence, which is to be Being itself. That is what they share in common. We’re not saying anything different, which is why I don’t understand why your changing the terms changes the argument.

    When you say "What the divine persons do not share in common" I think they are not in God the same Divine Person

    And that’s fine. Like I said, my argument works no matter what you claim the principle of distinction is. You can call the principle of distinction “X”, and my argument demonstrates that X, whatever it is, cannot be God.

    The principle of unity & the principle of distinction are two different categories of predicating God as far as I can see & I don't see the contradiction.

    What do you mean by “categories of predicating”, and why is that relevant here?

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  87. >“[t]hat which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction” (QDV 8.8),

    Which to me merely means they are not the same category of predication.

    "Being the same God" is one category of predicating God and "being really distinct persons in God" is another and they are not the same.

    But the Persons are the One God and God is the relative Person(s).

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  88. Ben:

    Here it is in simplified form:

    (1) If A is really distinct from B, then the principle of unity of A and B cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of A and B
    (2) The divine persons are really distinct
    (3) Therefore, the principle of unity of the divine persons cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of the divine persons (by (1), (2))
    (4) The principle of unity of the divine persons is being God (= the divine essence = Being itself)
    (5) The principle of distinction of the divine persons is P
    (6) Therefore, P cannot be identical to being God (= the divine essence = Being itself) (by (3), (4), (5))
    (7) If X is not identical to being God (= the divine essence = Being itself), then X is a creature
    (8) Therefore, P is a creature (by (6), (7))

    And it is absurd that P is a creature, because that means that what distinguishes the divine persons from one another (i.e. P) is derived from creation.

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  89. >Here it is in simplified form:

    It's not simple it is ambiguous. We don't have letter formulas in our Councils and Theology manuals. We spell them out in plain grammar and doctrinal formulas.

    >(3)Therefore, the principle of unity of the divine persons cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of the divine persons.

    So we are saying two different things about the One God and not the same thing about the One God?

    That isn't remarkable or a contradiction.

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  90. The "principle of unity" is not the same principle as "principle of distinction" as a principle.

    So I am still not getting the contradiction.

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  91. Saying "the divine persons are God without distinction" is saying something different about Deity then is saying "the divine persons are really distinct from each other in God".

    But I am still not saying anything contradictory.

    Which is what "that which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction" means.
    We are not saying the same thing about God.

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  92. Let us do another re-write.

    Does this make sense?


    (1) If A is really distinct from B as really distinct beings of reason, then the principle of unity of A and B cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of A and B
    (2) The divine attributes are really distinct beings of reason
    (3) Therefore, the principle of unity of the divine attributes cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of the divine attributes (by (1), (2))
    (4) The principle of unity of the divine attributes is being God (= the divine essence = Being itself)
    (5) The principle of distinction of the divine persons is P
    (6) Therefore, P cannot be identical to being God (= the divine essence = Being itself) (by (3), (4), (5))
    (7) If X is not identical to being God (= the divine essence = Being itself), then X is a creature
    (8) Therefore, P is a creature (by (6), (7))

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  93. additional:

    (5) The principle of distinction of the divine attributes is P

    ReplyDelete
  94. Ben YachoV

    I just watch a lot of BBC America

    As an Englishman, may I ask why? Most conservative and traditional Brits despise the BBC.

    Michael,
    You uncharitably "concluded" I misunderstood the argument. And you uncharitably took "positively delight" in that conclusion. And you uncharitably mocked me and all open theists in stating your conclusion and delight.


    Open Theists are not Christians in the traditional sense, any more than Mormons are.

    Open Theism so compromises the very notion of God that I feel much closer to a Muslim than to an Open Theist who bases himself on the Bible.

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  95. I am the anonymous that has been engaging this discussion. I've taken a name because there is another anonymous that has been engaging Michael today and I want to avoid confusion. My last post was the series addressed to Glenn and dguller quite early in the morning.

    dguller,

    You misunderstood the reason for my posting that quotation. The author does not intend to defend Aquinas' formulation and I did not quote him to this effect--in my view, the matter is settled and you are in error--rather, I referenced him to illustrate that the Trinity, while it is not demonstrable by reason, is not only not in conflict with reason, but also that it provides explanatory purchase on the thorniest issue in Platonic metaphysics: the problem of differentiation. It was an attempt on my part to show the Trinity as more reasonable than has thus far been granted.

    Ben and Glenn,

    Check out that quotation I posted very early. You will find them interesting.

    Michael,

    You cannot compare my misunderstanding of a short sentence with your failure to understand dguller's argument, one that you insisted multiple times was transparent, obvious, and dispositive.

    Further, you are a not a Christian. At the very minimum, a Christian should hold to certain triadological and Christological positions. (I would say much more, but I don't want to offend those deracinated Protestants separated from either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.) You do not. That you find the Bible interesting, even as a source of beliefs, is of no consequence. I will also hold, along with Feser and Hart, that to reject divine simplicity is not only philosophically incoherent, but that it turns God into a fairly cordial Zeus sans the rest of the Pantheon.

    Now, you may insist that you are a Christian and that what the councils and creeds say is irrelevant. Nonetheless, I would say that what you think is irrelevant. The historical tradition is what it is, and that tradition judges you anathema. Personal identification--a very Protestant criterion--means nothing to it.

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  96. >As an Englishman, may I ask why? Most conservative and traditional Brits despise the BBC.

    I enjoy Dr. Who & a few other TV show and sitcoms.

    As an American conservative I don't give a fig about their commie News shows which are only slightly to the right of Canadian News.

    Which is like saying Michael Moore is slightly to the right of Obama.

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  97. JMA,

    For the nth time, a faulty, hasty summary of something does not = misunderstanding of something.

    I could not care less that you don't think I am a Christian. I could not care less that you think I am irrelevant.

    The classical conception of God is philosophically incoherent and blatantly contradictory to God's own self-revelation. Likewise the dogma of the trinity.

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  98. Michael,

    I don't really want to belabor this much, but you clearly misunderstood as you repeatedly asked for clarification afterward.

    You also show that you quite misunderstand my claim. It is not that I think you are a heretic or that your views are incoherent. What I think amounts to nothing. It's that the Christian tradition has determined such. It was not meant to be opprobrious or uncharitable, only descriptive. And you are also quite wrong about what is philosophically coherent and what the scriptures actually teach, but that's another story, and, quite frankly, I have little interest in starting an argument over a tendentious assertion.

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  99. Dguller,

    It is hard to prove to someone the exclusive truth of a particular religion. However, would what do you think is the relation of the Ultimate Reality you accept and man? What is the role of man, the purpose of his life, in the context of this belief in the Ultimate Reality?

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  100. The classical conception of God is philosophically incoherent

    You have not shown this.

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  101. Ben:

    It's not simple it is ambiguous. We don't have letter formulas in our Councils and Theology manuals. We spell them out in plain grammar and doctrinal formulas.

    Honestly, it’s much easier to say “if A is really distinct from B” than to say “if one being is really distinct from another being”. But if you prefer me to avoid using variables, and just use words, then I’ll do so, but trust me, you’ll find variables much more easier to follow.

    So we are saying two different things about the One God and not the same thing about the One God?

    No. We’re saying that what the divine persons have in common (i.e. their principle of unity) cannot be identical to what the divine persons do not have in common (i.e. their principle of distinction). Two beings cannot be distinguished on the basis of what they have in common, but only on the basis of what they do not have in common.

    The "principle of unity" is not the same principle as "principle of distinction" as a principle.

    The principle of unity is whatever one being has in common with another being, and the principle of distinction is whatever one being do not have in common with another being. That’s all. And they cannot be identical, because then what the two beings have in common will be identical to what the two beings do not have in common, which is logically impossible.

    Which is what "that which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction" means.
We are not saying the same thing about God.

    That is not what that principle means at all. It is a general principle that applies whenever two really distinct beings are being compared. The two really distinct beings must have some things in common and some things not in common. The former is the principle of unity and the latter is the principle of distinction.

    (1) If A is really distinct from B as really distinct beings of reason, then the principle of unity of A and B cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of A and B

    But a being of reason is a being that only exists within the human intellect, and does not exist outside of the human intellect. By definition, two distinct beings of reason, if they are both about the same thing outside of the mind, must be notionally distinct, and thus cannot be really distinct. So, I really don’t know what (1) is supposed to mean, or even why it is relevant to my argument at all.

    (2) The divine attributes are really distinct beings of reason

    If they are beings of reason, then they can only be notionally distinct.

    (5) The principle of distinction of the divine attributes is P

    And P must only exist in the human intellect, because the divine attributes are only notionally distinct.

    I have no idea what you are trying to prove with this argument, anyway.

    And I would love to know what you mean by different “categories of predication” and why it is relevant to my argument.

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  102. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  103. JMA:

    in my view, the matter is settled and you are in error

    I would be most interested to be shown to be in error, rather than just declared to be in error.

    rather, I referenced him to illustrate that the Trinity, while it is not demonstrable by reason, is not only not in conflict with reason, but also that it provides explanatory purchase on the thorniest issue in Platonic metaphysics: the problem of differentiation. It was an attempt on my part to show the Trinity as more reasonable than has thus far been granted.

    And I disagree. The Trinity simply swallows the incoherence in which the principle of unity of A and B is the principle of distinction of A and B, as if this was an actual solution to this problem. And it does so under the fig leaf of mystery, which is supposed to make the presence of a logical contradiction a sign of profundity and depth, and indicative of contact with transcendence itself. But just because the mind grinds to a halt in emptiness and stillness when contemplating the Trinity does not necessarily mean that one has reached something transcendent and mysterious. After all, the mind also grinds to a halt in emptiness and stillness when contemplating a square circle, but it does so not because it has reached something transcendent and mysterious, but because it cannot process logical contradictions at all.

    And this speaks to my earlier comment when I brought up John D. Caputo, who is also a philosopher at Villanova University. When in the mystical darkness, one simply does not know if the darkness is the result of an overabundance of light and presence, or an utter absence of light and presence. There is no way to distinguish the two, because distinction itself implies the use of concepts and ideas, which are extinguished in the mystical darkness itself. After all, if there were concepts and ideas still present, then there would be some visibility in the darkness.

    So, the question is whether our conceptual framework collapses at such a point due to an excess of power that overwhelms our framework to the point of breakdown, or is there simply a weak point in our conceptual framework such that our mere contact at that point is enough to cause the collapse.

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  104. dguller,

    I am not merely declaring that you are in error; I am in agreement with Ben and Glenn here. They have shown, at least in my judgment, that you are in error. Now, it is eminently clear to me that you disagree. That's fine. Nonetheless, we are arguing in circles at this point and pursuing the matter more fully is, in my view, a complete waste of time.

    As for my reference, you still aren't quite getting the point: the doctrine of the Trinity--and I presume that you can accept it as a hypothetical to illustrate a point--provides explanatory purchase on the problem of metaphysical differentiation, the Achilles heal of Platonic metaphysics. In effect, the doctrine renders a Platonic chain of being coherent in a way that it cannot do apart from the Trinity. As for Caputo, his point is irrelevant to this claim. Further, I do not accept him as an authority given his Derridean and Protestant commitments. (Of course, I am not arguing that he should be written off entirely. Everyone, pomo's included have insights; but these insights have to be argued for. You cannot cite him to a Christian classical theist as if he were Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, a Father of the Church, or a noted Scholastic because he is outside the tradition.)

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  105. JMA,

    I have one of David Schindler's works. I haven't read most of it yet though, but he looks like a useful authority on Plato.

    I am, though, a little confused about this problem of metaphysical differentiation that is supposed to afflict Platonism. I'm a Platonist and was not aware of it.

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  106. Jeremy Taylor,

    Most critics focus on the third man problem or Aristotle's critique in criticizing Platonist metaphysics. However, as Lloyd Gerson has shown, these were never considerable problems in Late Antiquity given the shared understanding of Plato's Parmenides and Plotinus' interpretation thereof. Rather, the problem for Platonism, as Schindler touches on and a number of others have, is that while the forms and participation provide an account for the unity of things, they are inadequate to explain their differentiation. Here is Schindler from that same essay:

    "In order to enter into the various aspects of the problem of participation, let us focus them around a single question: what accounts for the difference between image and reality, participans and participatum? As we saw above, Plato conceived the notion of participation primarily as a means of accounting for the unity among things. How is it, in other words, that I can call this, this, and this a chair? But resolving this problem by pointing to a shared form gives rise immediately to the problem of explaining why there are in fact these chairs if there is indeed Chair itself. In order to avoid thinking of the images as simply unreal, or affirming their multiplicity as a fall from unity and just so far as imperfect, we need to discover a positive principle for their difference. The tendency in Platonic thought is to explain the multiplicity, not by any positive principle, but by the relative absence of a principle. This approach has a clear advantage, in that it provides, as we will see below, a way of affirming the paradoxical identity of transcendence and immanence of forms in relation to images, which allows us to avoid both a pantheistic monism and a problematic dualism. But, as we will also see, this solution will ultimately remain insufficient insofar as the difference of the form from the image cannot be sustained without a corresponding difference of the image from the form, i.e., without the image being as well both transcendent and immanent with respect to the form. [continued . . .]"

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  107. >Honestly, it’s much easier to say “if A is really distinct from B” than to say “if one being is really distinct from another being”.

    No Catholic Christian & no Orthodox Christian would accept the idea the distinct Persons are "beings" and not the same Being.

    So taken at face value you seem to think the doctrine of the Trinity is somehow in spite of our protestations to the contrary just another way to argue God is many beings in one being.

    That is just wrong.


    >No. We’re saying that what the divine persons have in common (i.e. their principle of unity) cannot be identical to what the divine persons do not have in common (i.e. their principle of distinction).

    I have already explained what I think that means & it is not the same with what you think it means.

    > Two beings cannot be distinguished on the basis of what they have in common, but only on the basis of what they do not have in common.

    dguller I really don't think of the distinct persons as two beings but as one being & as subsisting relations in that one being. What you wrote above is not what any of us believe or can believe under pain of heresy.

    You really don't get the Trinity do you?

    >That is not what that principle means at all.

    It is to every Trinitarian Christian here. It is what we believe and understand our teaching to mean that counts not what you wish it to mean.

    > It is a general principle that applies whenever two really distinct beings are being compared. The two really distinct beings must have some things in common and some things not in common. The former is the principle of unity and the latter is the principle of distinction.

    Have you really been assuming all this time the divine persons are distinct being and not mysteriously distinct subsisting relations in Being Itself?

    This would explain a lot!

    Here is the problem in a nutshell.

    You think the Trinity means Three Beings in One Being.

    No Trinitarian who accepts the councils of Nicea and Constantinople believes that.

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  108. "[. . . continued] Let us try to bring out more clearly the difficult latent here. Aquinas, following the classical philosophical tradition, affirms that “that which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of difference.”15 If this axiom is simply true, we can find a principle for the difference of the image from the form—and ultimately of the world from God only by positing a second principle for difference. But we then face the problem of articulating the relationship between these two principles. Is there an ultimate unity between them? If yes, then what accounts for their difference? The alternatives would seem to be to affirm the Gnostic ultimacy of two principles, which is ultimately irrational, or to affirm difference as an “unjustifiable” fall from unity. In other words, either difference has no explanation, and thus has no “good reason,” or it has an explanation, i.e., a second positive principle of its own, which becomes thus the opposite of the good principle. In either case, it has no intelligible justification. The only real alternative to these alternatives would seem to be either to refuse to raise the question, and simply begin from the obvious existence of a unified multiplicity, i.e., to presuppose that this problem has nothing to offer to thinking, and then to turn one’s attention to other details—but here we fall into the wonderlessness of positivism and ultimately to the loss of philosophy. Or, we refuse to seek an answer and simply abide within the question in a Heideggerian fashion—but if we decide a priori that the question cannot find an answer, we have indeed already de facto answered the question, and specifically given it the same negative answer we considered first above. Thus, the question of accounting for difference in the structure of participation seems in the end to yield four possible outcomes: either nihilism, nihilism, nihilism, or nihilism. To borrow from Woody Allen, let us pray that we have the wisdom to make the right choice."

    You can read the rest here: http://www.anselm.edu/Documents/Institute%20for%20Saint%20Anselm%20Studies/Abstracts/4.5.3.2g_31Schindler.pdf

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  109. I'd like to address how you misunderstood what I meant by "really distinct beings of reason," but in brief I will say I did not at all mean that beings of reason are real outside the mind or that they are real distinctions of some kind.

    But this mishigoss about the divine relations/persons being distinct beings must be addressed first.

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  110. dguller

    If the three persons are three beings then they are three Gods.

    They are the same being or One in Being or the Same Divine Being. They are Being Itself without real distinction as Being Itself.

    They are Individual subsisting relations in Being Itself but not distinct beings.

    In relation to Being Itself they are at best beings of reason. But in Being Itself they are real opposing relations that subsist in Being Itself.

    That is the doctrine and neither myself, VJ, Brandon, Glenn, Scott, Fr Adrian, JMA, any classical reformation Protestant or Feser himself believe otherwise.

    I can say that with complete confidence without fear of rebuke or correction.

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  111. I read a good part of the essay. I noticed that Schindler essentially repeats the critique of the Third Man problem, which Giovanni Reale rightly characterises as a howler.

    I think, though, the problem brought up by Schindler is false. It seems to neglect that creation, or manifestation, for the Platonist is theopany, a divine unveiling.

    For the Platonist manifestation is a progressive separation and determination of distinctions that are latent, but wholly unified, in the One. The One cannot but manifest itself because it is Infinite Possibility, and not manifesting itself would deprive it of 'part' of its Infinity.

    Schindler also insinsuates that the Platonic notion of creation is wholly privative - robbing creation of any Goodness. This is mistaken.

    It is true that, to the degree, manifestation is a descent from the One it is privative. However, this descent exists only in so far as phenomena are viewed in isolation - the sin of Adam, idolatry - but so far as manifestation is viewed 'within' God, there is no separation and creation is simply Good. In fact, so far as manifestation is an aspect of God's All-Possibility, it in a sense increases his Good, although in another sense, because God is infinite and manifestation is finite, it can add nothing to God.

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  112. In reference ro my last point, I think Schindler, like many others, has neglected vital aspects of the Platonic idea of unity.

    Here I always advise consulting Coleridge and the Pythagoreans as excellent introductions.

    Unity, in the Platonic sense, does not annihilate particulars. For the Platonist, for example, temperature (let us talk of only hot and cold) includes the particulars of hot and cold. Temperature must include these in all their particularity. And yet it is not just the sum of these particular parts - because it must unifty them. Temperature itself is not hot and cold, it is both and it is neither. This is the essence of the Platonic perspective on unity. It does not annihilate particulars - in fact, it would be a depravation of the being of the Forms to do so - but it situates them in a greater, unified whole.

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  113. Jeremy Taylor,

    It isn't a repeat of the Third Man problem at all, but the need to explain the equiprimordiality of multiplicity along with unity. The Platonist explanation, the same that you describe above, is deeply unsatisfying. I can grant all that you write--and quite frankly, I do--and it still doesn't answer the problem of the source of multiplicity. The forms only exist virtually in the One, which is pure unity. Without a principle of multiplicity inherent within the One, there can be no satisfactory answer for the problem of how the forms are differentiated in matter.

    I shall, however, disagree with your description of emanated reality in Platonism. Yes, emanated reality is "good" in the sense that it originates from the One, but it also features multiplicity, which is indelibly bad. The solution you offer is deeply unsatisfying in this respect. Sure, sensory reality is good to the extent that you describe, but it is also evil in the sense that it is intermixed with matter and apart from the One--and this is what sensory reality reality is for Plato and Plotinus: a projection of forms onto a material substrate, a mixture of good and evil, of unity and multiplicity. The problem doesn't go away by telling me to cover the eye that sees only privation and open the eye that sees abundance. The problem needs to be looked at considering both, while you seem to suggest understanding it can only be in terms of one or the other. Sorry, but the world around is both evil and good according to Platonism.

    This is, of course, where Christians have to part with orthodox Platonism: creation is inherently good because of the incarnation and the equiprimordiality of unity and multiplicity in the Triune God. Not only does this allow us to escape nihilism, but it allows for a coherent metaphysical account of metaphysical differentiation in created reality; hence, I can only agree with Schindler that Platonism needs Christianity as much as Christianity needs Platonism (and that goes for Aristotelian accounts as well, which represent a form of Platonism).

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  114. Jeremy Taylor,

    Coleridge is a 19th century idealist and Romantic whose philosophy is essentially very close to Schelling. I would no more consider him authoritative than I would Derrida. As for the Pythagoreans, you are correct that Plato draws from them considerably, but he also critiques them.

    Nonetheless, I thank you for offering suggestions; however, I am already quite familiar with Plato. By the way, are you the commentator who used to frequent here formerly known as Westcountryman?

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  115. I didn't mean to suggest it was a repeat of the Third Man problem. I was simply noting that Schindler rightly dismissed that problem. The Third Man problem is based on neglecting the ontological superiority of the Forms to sensibles - it is a howler and always has been.

    In your first paragraph I'm not sure why you argue the One cannot contain multiplicity. If we consider the One as all-possibility, to use a particular Platonic parlance, and that possibility to to include possbilities that can be manifested, and therefore must be at the risk of compromising God's infinity, where is the lack of the source of multiplicity.

    Again, it is hard to see how the second paragraph really deals with the Platonic point. The point is not simply about the mundane psychological level, but a question of Nous and how the regenerate man views things. Manifestation is privation to the degree it is separate from the One. To the degree it is seen within the One, however, it is Good. It never leaves the One, its privation is never total, as evil is negation and is nothing in itself, and in itself it 'contributes', in a sense, to the Good.

    Not only does Schindler seem to be making the mistake the atheist does when he treats evil as a positive entity, but he neglects the basic role and nature of manifestation. Manifestation is good, if only relatively so, in itself because it reflects the absolute goodness of the One (and all its other qualities) - there is no absolute evil - and manifestation has its role to play in allowing the separation of distinctions latent, but wholly unified, in the One. But the separation is only privative when taken as separation in itself; viewed a perspective that completely understands the unity of all possibility in the One, there is no privation.

    Where is the problem supposed to lie here? I don't see it. Unless you are suggesting that to be Good creation must be another divine essence.

    And I'm also not sure how introduction of Trinitarian metaphysics would solve the problem, if there was one. The separation between creation and the unity and mulitiplicty of the Triune God would seem to be entirely analogous to the problem you claim for Platonism.

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  116. JMA,

    I was not providing Coleridge or the Pythagoreans to be taken on authority, but sources for explanation.

    I disagree with the characterisation of Coleridge as close to Schelling or as an idealist. It is true that Coleridge was early on influenced by such figures and never wholly repudiated them, but he was, in his mature period, far more influence by the Platonic tradition and Anglican Christianity. He owes far more to Plotinus and the Cambridge Platonists than he does to any German idealist.

    No, I'm not Westcountryman.

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  117. Having read all of that essay now, I will say that Schindler raises some good points, but they would be better read as cautions against simplistic and partial readings of the Platonic tradition - the neglect of important aspects of Platonic metaphysics and cosmology - than any substantive case for the necessity of Trinitarian metaphysics, per se, to complete the Platonic perspective.

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  118. Jeremy Taylor,

    If you aren't following, I would urge you to read that essay again. I think that you clearly misunderstand Schindler if you are arguing that he treats evil like a "thing"--he doesn't. Reading page 6 in particular, it is eminently clear that he is reading Plato in light of the traditional view of the unity of the dialogues and the radical transcendence of the forms that Plato espouses in the Parmenides. This is a problem with the traditional view of Platonism as he makes painfully clear on pages 7 and 8. If you want to understand it, read these pages carefully.

    In your first paragraph I'm not sure why you argue the One cannot contain multiplicity. If we consider the One as all-possibility, to use a particular Platonic parlance, and that possibility to to include possbilities that can be manifested, and therefore must be at the risk of compromising God's infinity, where is the lack of the source of multiplicity.

    This is incorrect. Multiplicity in Platonism is a limitation on Being. Yes, the One contains all possibilities, just as white light does all others, but it cannot contain the principle for their multiplicity, which--and Plotinus is very clear on this point--emerges only with the Divine Nous, the second hypostatsis. Thought, for Plotinus, requires multiplicity and a movement from potency to act, which is why contra to Aristotle he places the Divine Mind after the One in the chain of being. You seem to think that the One must "include possibilities that can be manifested," but in arguing this you are treating the One as having potency and so not simple. Further, when you claim that the One must manifest multiplicity or "be at the risk of compromising God's infinity," you err in arguing that the One needs to manifest finite reality to be completed. This is a grave error. To argue this would suggest that the One lacks the fullness of being on its own and without creation. This is a point on which both Christians and Platonists agree.

    The story found in Plato and Plotinus is that the One as perfect is productive. I grant that, but it doesn't adequately address how the leap from absolute and infinite unified being to a relative and finite one-in-many in the Nous is possible given that multiplicity is not found in the One. Rather, matter, as non-being and evil, plays this role here as the material substrate in the Timaeus.

    Because you miss this, you don't see why your response is so weak. You want to say that as long as we only look at the goodness in the world around around us and not the bad, we can get around this problem. But for Plato, things are differentiated in the act of participation by non-being, and for Plotinus this non-being is equivalent to evil and multiplicity. Thus, creaturely reality is, for Platonism, indelibly evil in some respect. You want to say that all that truly exists is good because such comes from the One; fair enough, but things also fail to exist and are thus bad in the sense that they are multiple and finite. This is a necessary conclusion of Platonic monism. This is the problem that Schindler shows that the Trinity overcomes. He uses Aquinas to illustrate this problem, but one does not have to be a Thomist to accept it--one only need be a Christian.

    I'm not sure why you are so insistent that Coleridge is a valid authority. Just because he referenced Plato more late in life does not make him a Platonist in the classic sense. Plenty of idealists did that. Hegel drew from Proclus and John Scotus Eriugene, for instance, and Schelling drew from Plotinus, Proclus, and Denys. One could say that he constructed a Platonic system under idealist principles of being and knowing, but such ultimately operates under radically different principles than does Plato. And at this point I have to ask what is wrong with reading Plato, Plotinus, Proclus, et al. instead? Sure, one has to learn Greek, but that isn't too bad. It's possible to reach the level of intermediate reader, as I did, in one summer.

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  119. Jeremy Taylor,

    I don't quite follow why you think he misses some important points of Platonism. Everything you mention he considers. In fact, these look like rather tendentious and unsubstantiated assertions. I could just as well assert that he understand the implications of Platonism better than you and that you miss them.

    Anyway, I don't have any more time to post today or for the next few. I'm off to do some work. By the way, if you don't know Greek and you choose to learn it, let me suggest the Crito and the Symposium as dialogues to read early. The former is great practice for a beginner and the latter is a work of literary genius to which the English does not do justice in the least.

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  120. I should have been clearer. I did not mean Schindler accepts evil as a positive thing in general, simply that his treatment of in regard to the goodness of creation in the Platonic view seems to assume a positivity to evil that is false. In the Platonic view all creation is by definition good, as evil is never a positive thing. The most supreme separation possible from God, as long as one stills exists, is still good.

    I think it important to separate, as it were, exegesis from philosophy. As Plotinus and the late antique Platonists did not treat Plato simply as an authority who could not be challenged or supplemented, so I think it better if we do not treat Plotinus or Plato in such a way. If the Platonic perspective can arguably say make a particular claim, that is good enough for me in this setting, without quoting any particular Platonist chapter and verse.

    You seem to think that the One must "include possibilities that can be manifested," but in arguing this you are treating the One as having potency and so not simple. Further, when you claim that the One must manifest multiplicity or "be at the risk of compromising God's infinity," you err in arguing that the One needs to manifest finite reality to be completed. This is a grave error. To argue this would suggest that the One lacks the fullness of being on its own and without creation. This is a point on which both Christians and Platonists agree.

    I disagree with your interpretation here. I was careful to suggest that it is only in one sense that the infinite requires the finite. In one sense the Divine Essence is utterly discontinuous with creation, because it is absolute and infinite and creation is relative and finite. Creation in this sense cannot affect the One. But creation is still a part of the One, there is continuity as well as discontinuity, as nothing is properly outside the One.

    This is analogous for all Classical Theism, which maintains God creates - creation is not the divine essence but cannot be entirely outside God either.

    Let us take a simple and analogous example: the Tree Form. Individuals trees, possible and actual, exist in the Tree Form. Yet the Form is greater than the sum of these parts, being all of them at once and the very universal foundation and being of 'Treeness'. To deny the possibility of one possible ever becoming actual, so to speak, would not, on the one hand, take anything away from the Tree Form - it would still be the essence of 'Treeness' and it would still contain all the particular trees, possible and actual. However, on the other hand, to deny this possible tree the possibility of actuality would deny something inherent in the possibility of the Tree Form.

    The One has no potency because it does manifest itself - it is our discussion that is positing the possibilities as if they are potential. Besides, I'd be weary of introducing Aristotelian terminology at this stage.



    You want to say that all that truly exists is good because such comes from the One; fair enough, but things also fail to exist and are thus bad in the sense that they are multiple and finite.
    This would seem to implicitly assume a positive character to evil. No thing fails to exist. Failing to exist is the absence of a thing, by definition. This is the heart of my point about how we view privation. So far as it is viewed in separation it is privative, but viewed in its proper place within the divine, the world contains no privation per se.

    As I said before, I also don't, even if I accept there is a problem, see how Trinitarian metaphysics solves it. It would seem just to have the same problem of the separation of Unity and Mulitiplicty of God from that of creation.

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  121. I do not offer Coleridge as an authority. I'm not sure what that terms means in this context. I think calling Coleridge an idealist, in the strong sense you mean (ie., not simply was he influenced by certain German idealists - which no one denies - but he is best categorised alongside them) is begging the question. It is what is in dispute. But anyway, I was just offering him as someone who helped me better understand certain aspects of Platonism. I do have a lot of sympathy for just learning from the old authors, but it is hard to do in a complete fashion - and is a somewhat ironic demand in a debate where David Schindler's contemporary readings of both Platonism and Aquinas are at issue.

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  122. The claim is that Schindler has considered all that I address. I do not think so. For example, he does not seem to understand the Platonic conception of unity. He states this:

    "For Plato, to
    say that beautiful things participate in Beauty itself is to say that Beauty alone is real, and that the reality of beauty in beautiful things is nothing but Beauty itself as present to them. Theirs is a wholly derived beauty. Plato’s view expresses the paradigm for Neoplatonism more generally: the relative “existence” of instances of any quality implies the perfectly subsistent reality of that
    quality as absolutely distinct from them. There is a unilateral dynamic here: the form is real, and
    the image has reality only insofar as it has form, and in fact never truly “has” either, strictly
    speaking, but rather displays reality by displaying the form: “Instances, then, have no reality of their own, but must be understood as images in the sense of appearances of the forms.”106 That the orientation in participation is unilateral comes perhaps most clearly to light in the fact that form, then, is turned wholly to itself.107 Its “production” of images is not so much a giving to them as it is a more indifferent “giving off,” while the activity resides wholly on the side of the
    image, which so to speak chases after its reality.108"


    We can argue for a long time about the exegesis of Plato's own though, so let it be taken for granted I'm talking about the Platonic tradition in its fullest development.

    This is just one side of the Platonic conception of the form. The Platonic notion of unity which the Form makes use of means that, on the one hand, whilst the tree form is no particular, individual tree - being entirely above them as the ground of 'treeness' and containing all existing trees at one and the same time - is also all particular, individual trees as well. What Schindler does is neglect the way the form is immanent as well as transcendent. This Platonic view of unity is hard to grasp at first, but I think understanding it is important and would help clear up some of Schindler's misconceptions.

    For example, if I may extend the analogy, any particular tree is a privation of the tree form only so far as it is set up in separation or isolation from the tree form. To the degree that it exists entirely within the tree form, both as possibility and actuality, there is privation proper. The individual tree, possible and actual, is in fact a necessary aspect of the tree form.

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  123. - there is no privation proper, rather.

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  124. JMA:

    I am not merely declaring that you are in error; I am in agreement with Ben and Glenn here. They have shown, at least in my judgment, that you are in error.

    I claim that there are only two kinds of distinctions, according to Aquinas: notional and real. Therefore, any distinctions in God are either notional or real. You, Ben and Glenn all claim that I am wrong and that there is a kind of distinction that is neither notional nor real.

    My argument is that this is logically impossible, because a notional distinction is one that only exists in the mind and does not exist outside the mind in reality, and a real distinction is one that exists both in the mind and outside the mind in reality. To claim that there is a kind of distinction that is neither notional nor real is to claim that there is a kind of distinction that only exists in the mind and does not only exist in the mind, that does not exist outside the mind and does exist outside the mind. That is logically incoherent.

    Ben has not justified his position at all, and Glenn cited to passages in CT 52-3, which specifically talked about notional versus real relations, and not distinctions, and still made use of the very conceptual framework that my argument uses, i.e. that a notional relation is one that only exists in the mind, and a real relation is one that does not only exist in the mind. So, the very text that he cited to refute me just confirmed what I’ve been saying all along.

    Your solution seems to rely upon the idea that whatever kind(s) of distinction that exist in God must be analogous to, but not identical to, notional and real distinctions. Let’s just call the divine distinctions, Notional and Real, to distinguish them from created notional and real distinctions. Notional and Real distinctions must be like notional and real distinctions, which means that they must have something in common. If what Notional distinctions have in common with notional distinctions is that they only exist in the human mind, and if what Real distinctions have in common with real distinctions is that they do not only exist in the human mind, then your solution is still vulnerable to my argument, except that now instead of a dichotomy between notional and real distinction, you have a dichotomy between Notional and Real distinction.

    Or maybe in God, there is no dichotomy of distinctions at all. There is only one kind of distinction, and it is neither real nor notional. Even if we leave aside the logical incoherence of such a distinction, you are still left with the problem that, in God, the kind of distinction involved between the divine persons must be different from the kind of distinction involved between the divine attributes. Thus, it is impossible that there is only one kind of distinction, and there must be, at least, two. What distinguishes these two kinds of distinctions from one another? I have claimed that what distinguishes them must be whether they only exist in the mind or not, which I have supported with quotes from Aquinas himself, and that remains true whether we are talking about God or creation, because Aquinas himself uses the same distinction when talking about either. And even if they were different in some way, which they would have to be in order to be analogous, they still share enough commonality that my dichotomy remains valid.

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  125. the doctrine of the Trinity--and I presume that you can accept it as a hypothetical to illustrate a point--provides explanatory purchase on the problem of metaphysical differentiation, the Achilles heal of Platonic metaphysics. In effect, the doctrine renders a Platonic chain of being coherent in a way that it cannot do apart from the Trinity.

    I do understand what you are claiming, but I’m denying that the Trinity successfully solves that problem at all. I agree that the ultimate explanatory principle of reality must itself be a differentiated unity, i.e. must contain a kind of multiplicity of “beings” that are distinct from one another, but exist within a unity of some kind. And the problem is that this leads to a series of impossibilities and absurdities, which neither the Trinity nor Neoplatonic metaphysics can resolve.

    Neoplatonism cannot resolve this, because it must argue that the One is undifferentiated and that real differentiation only occurs with Nous, but also that the lack of differentiation in the One is actually a kind of virtual differentiation. But virtual differentiation is still a kind of multiplicity, and thus the One cannot be absolutely simple, but only relatively simple, and only that which is absolutely simple can count as an ultimate explanatory principle.

    And as for the Trinity, the problem is the principle of unity cannot be identical to the principle of distinction, as Aquinas put it. If the principle of unity is being God, or the divine essence, or Being itself, all of which are merely notionally distinct, then the principle of distinction cannot be being God, or the divine essence, or Being itself. And that means that the principle of distinction, i.e. whatever it is that accounts for the distinction between the divine persons, must itself be a creature, which is absurd. Therefore, you must conclude, as I think Schindler does, that the principle of unity, in fact, is the principle of distinction in the Trinity, i.e. they are notionally, and not really, distinct from one another. And the problem with that, as I’ve mentioned, is that such a claim is the equivalent of arguing that what A and B have in common is identical to what A and B do not have in common, which is a logical contradiction. So, you are still stuck with, as Schindler puts it, “nihilism”.

    As for Caputo, his point is irrelevant to this claim. Further, I do not accept him as an authority given his Derridean and Protestant commitments. (Of course, I am not arguing that he should be written off entirely. Everyone, pomo's included have insights; but these insights have to be argued for. You cannot cite him to a Christian classical theist as if he were Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, a Father of the Church, or a noted Scholastic because he is outside the tradition.)

    I only brought him up, because you alluded to the mystical theology of Denys, and said that the process of negation “ultimately stills the mind and it is where God is met, not as an empty negation, but as a superabundance of presence”. And he, and others, but none so colorfully, have specifically this stillness and emptiness of the mind as a state of radical undecidability. How would one know, in that utter lack of all images, concepts and ideas, whether one is in an overabundant presence or a radical absence? Did the mind stop because it hit something so tremendous that it was stopped dead in its tracks, or did the mind stop, because it simply ran out of fuel? Phenomenologically, the experience, if you can even call it that, in each scenario would be identical. In other words, in the mystical darkness, there are no longer any signs or guides to direct you in any direction whatsoever, and the presence of any such sign just shows that you have more to negate. But all of that is a side issue, albeit one that I’ve always found very intriguing.

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  126. Ben:

    No Catholic Christian & no Orthodox Christian would accept the idea the distinct Persons are "beings" and not the same Being.

    Would you prefer that I use Aquinas’ language, and call them “things”?

    I have already explained what I think that means & it is not the same with what you think it means.

    You claimed that when Aquinas states that the principle of unity is different from the principle of distinction, what he means is that “they are not the same category of predication.” But he is not talking about predication of terms, but about reality. He is not talking about how we talk, but about what we are talking about. Furthermore, you never explained to me what a “category of predication” is supposed to be.

    Look at it this way. Say you have two really distinct human beings, Ben and dguller. Ben and dguller have some things in common, such as that they have a formally identical human nature, they have a wife and children, they both read Thomas Aquinas, and so on, and they have some things not in common, such as that Ben lives in the United States and dguller lives in Canada, and so on. The former would be their principle of unity and the latter would be their principle of distinction. Clearly, what they have in common cannot be identical to what they do not have in common, which is what Aquinas means by saying that the principle of unity cannot be identical to the principle of distinction. In other words, being a human being and living in different places must be really distinct from one another in dguller and Ben, because if they weren’t really distinct, then they would be notionally distinct, and thus actually one and the same thing, which means that dguller and Ben actually do not differ in any way, which means that dguller is Ben. And that is … gross.

    Simply saying that being a human being and living in different places are different categories of predication does not help at all. Sure, the former is an essential predicate and the latter is an accidental predicate, but so what? The point is that they must be really distinct, if the former could possibly be a principle of unity and the latter could be a principle of distinction. That’s the important point here.

    dguller I really don't think of the distinct persons as two beings but as one being & as subsisting relations in that one being. What you wrote above is not what any of us believe or can believe under pain of heresy.

    Ben, I’m speaking loosely. Aquinas talks about “things”. If that makes you more comfortable, then I’ll revise my statement to: Two things cannot be distinguished on the basis of what they have in common, but only on the basis of what they do not have in common. Satisfied?

    Have you really been assuming all this time the divine persons are distinct being and not mysteriously distinct subsisting relations in Being Itself?

    No, I’m not. I’m only assuming that the divine persons are distinct … somethings. I’ll use whatever term you want for these really distinct somethings. Would you prefer individuals, things, X’s?

    You think the Trinity means Three Beings in One Being.

    No, I do not. That is why I prefer to use variables, such as A and B, because it avoids these unnecessary confusions. But just for clarity, when I say “beings”, I do not mean particular created substances, I just mean distinct individual beings in the loosest sense of the words.

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  127. Jeremy:

    It is hard to prove to someone the exclusive truth of a particular religion. However, would what do you think is the relation of the Ultimate Reality you accept and man? What is the role of man, the purpose of his life, in the context of this belief in the Ultimate Reality?

    Loosely, the purpose of man is to use his reason to understand his nature in order to consciously choose to maximally actualize the powers inherent in that nature, and thus draw closer to the source of all reality itself, becoming as one with it as humanly possible.

    Of course, the devil is in the details. ;)

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  128. >You claimed that when Aquinas states that the principle of unity is different from the principle of distinction, what he means is that “they are not the same category of predication.” But he is not talking about predication of terms, but about reality. He is not talking about how we talk, but about what we are talking about. Furthermore, you never explained to me what a “category of predication” is supposed to be.

    Since when do different categories of predication not talk about some type of reality? You need language to discuss reality.
    Taking about me as a human being is one category, me as an individual & talking about my nature as a member of the human species
    are two different categories. It's not hard.

    What I have in common with other human beings is that we are within the human species what I don't have in common is I am both a distinct person and being from other members of the human species. Analogously what The Father and Son have in common is both are members of the Godhead and each fully has the One divine essence/nature. What they don't have in common is within the divine essence they have some type of mysterious distinction of opposing relation that subsists in said divine essence.

    As with all analogy we abstract away the imperfections. Human nature has a real distinction between essence and being so it is impossible for two members of the human species to have the same substantial being. But God's essence and nature are only distinct notionally. Thus subsisting divine persons in the divine essence are really distinct from one another as distinct persons but not really distinct in being God.

    I don't know why this is hard for you to understand. I don't see how the principles of unity & or distinction produce a contradiction. Sorry but as VJ said this is just gibberish.


    >Simply saying that being a human being and living in different places are different categories of predication does not help at all. Sure, the former is an essential predicate and the latter is an accidental predicate, but so what? The point is that they must be really distinct, if the former could possibly be a principle of unity and the latter could be a principle of distinction. That’s the important point here.

    Those are simply the brute facts of real physical distinction between physical things. The distinctions between subsisting divine persons are not physical distinctions(or metaphysical) they are an impenetrable mystery. The Father doesn't live in the Northeastern part of God and the Son doesn't lives on the South Side.

    So I am still not getting the contradiction when I practically spell out the doctrine as it was taught to me. It seems the only way to get the "contradiction" is threw some weird sophistical word play not actual logic.

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  129. >Ben, I’m speaking loosely. Aquinas talks about “things”. If that makes you more comfortable, then I’ll revise my statement to: Two things cannot be distinguished on the basis of what they have in common, but only on the basis of what they do not have in common. Satisfied?

    Yes I am still not getting the contradiction. The Father is not really distinct from the Son in the divine essence that is the Father is God and the Son is God without distinction. When I predicate them as God I note from doctrine they are not at all different from each other except in reason. But when I predicate them as specific subsisting relations in God or in the divine nature I note one relation is not it's opposite relation as a relation. Same God without distinction but distinct persons. So where is the contradiction?

    >Look at it this way. Say you have two really distinct human beings, Ben and dguller. Ben and dguller have some things in common, such as that they have a formally identical human nature, they have a wife and children, they both read Thomas Aquinas, and so on, and they have some things not in common, such as that Ben lives in the United States and dguller lives in Canada, and so on. The former would be their principle of unity and the latter would be their principle of distinction. Clearly, what they have in common cannot be identical to what they do not have in common, which is what Aquinas means by saying that the principle of unity cannot be identical to the principle of distinction. In other words,being a human being and living in different places must be really distinct from one another in dguller and Ben, because if they weren’t really distinct, then they would be notionally distinct, and thus actually one and the same thing, which means that dguller and Ben actually do not differ in any way, which means that dguller is Ben. And that is … gross.

    I am still not getting the contradiction? We understand the properties of humans being and what their physical distinctions amount too. If I am a Traditional Thomist & you are let's say a Transcendental Thomist we have the broad Thomist tradition in common & distinct schools within that tradition in difference.

    But I am still not seeing the contradiction when I apply these principles to God?

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  130. Ben:

    Taking about me as a human being is one category, me as an individual & talking about my nature as a member of the human species
    are two different categories. It's not hard.


    What I don’t understand is what you think follows from this. Say that I am talking about you as a human being, which involves the category of substantial form, and then I am talking about you as an individual human being, which involves the category of instantiation of a substantial form in a concrete particular. I agree that I am describing you according to two different categories of predication, which means that there is a distinction in our minds between you from the perspective of one category of predication and you from the perspective of the other category of predication. But then the question is whether what one category of predication refers to is really distinct from what the other category of predication refers to. I would say that they are really distinct, because there is a real distinction between a composite entity and its essence. So, even accepting your framework, we still must decide whether a distinction between A and B in our minds exists only in our minds, or also outside our minds.

    I don't know why this is hard for you to understand. I don't see how the principles of unity & or distinction produce a contradiction. Sorry but as VJ said this is just gibberish.

    I really don’t know what else to tell you, Ben. It’s pretty clear, and even Scott understands my argument, irrespective of whether he agrees with it. In fact, I think that plenty of people here understand it, because they recognized when Michael unintentionally misunderstood my argument. If the principle of unity of the divine persons cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of the divine persons, and if the principle of unity of the divine persons is being God (or the divine essence, or Being itself), then it necessarily follows that the principle of distinction of the divine persons cannot be God (or the divine essence, or Being itself), and therefore, the principle of distinction of the divine persons must be a creature.

    The contradiction is as follows:

    (1) The principle of distinction of the divine persons cannot be a creature
    (2) The principle of distinction of the divine persons is a creature

    Can you really not see how (1) and (2) are contradictory? Are you so blinkered that this blindingly obvious truth escapes you intellectual apprehension? And don’t bother responding by saying that the senses of the terms are different in (1) and (2). They are not. What “the principle of distinction of the divine persons” means in (1) is identical to (2), and what “a creature” means in (1) is identical to (2). They are contradictory propositions. If you cannot recognize even this basic concept, then I think that we are done.

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  131. >The principle of distinction of the divine persons cannot be a creature.

    This is gibberish. A "principle" is a fundamental truth.

    It is the "fundamental truth" of distinction that things are not distinguished by what they have in common but where they differ.

    The Father has being fully God in common with the Son & He has not being that same indistinct person as the Son.

    Taking about the "fundamental truth" of distinction not being a creature makes about as much sense to me as asking the Atomic Weight of Natural Selection.

    If Scott understands what your argument is then he is going to have to explain it to me because I really got nothing.

    When I apply the fundamental truths of Unity and Distinction to a Triune God I find no logical or provable contradiction present.

    If I give into despair & throw away belief in God tomorrow I still won't think any better of your "argument".

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  132. dguller

    Are you asking if the mysterious real distinction between persons only exists in our minds and not externally to our minds?

    God really is a Trinity regardless of what we think about him. In God there are mysterious distinct relations that are real & compel us to say The Father is God & the Son is God but The Father is not the same relation as the Son in God.

    Whatever this real distinction is in nature it's not a physical composition or a potency made actual in God.

    At best we have an analogy of a Thinker and Though & Lover, Love and Beloved which we must abstract away created imperfections using negative theology as the corrector as Tradition tells us.

    That is it & again I see no contradiction.

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  133. Ben:

    >The principle of distinction of the divine persons cannot be a creature.

    This is gibberish. A "principle" is a fundamental truth.


    It is not gibberish. It means that something accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons. This “something” is the principle of distinction, and this “something” cannot be a creature, because it would mean that if there were no creation, then there would be no real distinction between the divine persons, which is absurd.

    It is the "fundamental truth" of distinction that things are not distinguished by what they have in common but where they differ.

    And what they differ is in what they do not have in common. Whatever they do not have in common is their principle of distinction. In other words, it is what accounts for the distinction between the things in question. And if there was no principle of distinction, there would be no distinct things. They would be one and the same thing.

    Taking about the "fundamental truth" of distinction not being a creature makes about as much sense to me as asking the Atomic Weight of Natural Selection.

    A principle of distinction between you and me is that you are an asshole and I am not. In Ben, there is the presence of being an asshole, and in dguller, there is the absence of being an asshole. The presence and absence of being an asshole is one thing that distinguishes us as really distinct beings.

    The state or reality in which being an asshole is present in Ben and absent in dguller is either a created state or God himself. I would argue that it is a created state or reality, and not God himself, but that’s just me, and I would also argue that this makes sense, and is not gibberish. After all, it is true that being an asshole is present in Ben and absent in dguller, and since truth is coextensive with being, it follows that this truth must be associated with some being, and all being is either unparticipated being or participated being.

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  134. Dale wasn't doing a strawman, his point was that "being itself" cannot be a being, because "being itself" is defined as the concept of being, and "a being" is defined as a substance which instantiates that concept. Of course something cannot instantiate itself (that would be recursion).

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  135. Ben:

    Think about it this way.

    A principle of unity between two things, which we can call A and B, is whatever they have in common. Say that they have C in common. It would follow that C is the principle of unity, which we can describe as the following:

    (1) C is present in A and C is present in B

    A principle of distinction between A and B would be whatever they do not have in common. Say that what A and B do not have in common is C. That would mean that the following is true:

    (2) C is present in A and C is absent in B

    That would mean that C is the principle of distinction, because it is present in A but absent in B.

    So, if C is present in both, then C is a principle of unity, and if C is present in one, but absent in the other, then C is a principle of distinction.

    The reason why C cannot be a principle of unity and a principle of distinction is because if it were, then it would follow that C is present in both A and B and C is present in A and absent in B (or vice versa), which is clearly logically impossible.

    C is clearly a being of some kind, i.e. it is not utter and absolute non-being. And since it is a being, then it is either unparticipated being (i.e. God himself) or participated being (i.e. a created being). And surely there is nothing incoherent about this at all.

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  136. Ben:

    Or, even simpler:

    (1) C is a principle of unity between A and B iff A and B share C in common iff C is present in A and C is present in B

    (2) C is a principle of distinction between A and B iff A and B do not share C in common iff C is present in A and C is absent in B

    Does that help?

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  137. Ben:

    And note, again, that the reason why the principle of unity between A and B cannot be identical to the principle of distinction between A and B is because that would result in the following contradictions:

    (3) A and B share C in common
    (4) A and B do not share C in common

    And

    (5) C is present in B
    (6) C is not present in B

    Therefore, the principle of unity between A and B cannot be identical to the principle of distinction between A and B.

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  138. >A principle of distinction between you and me is that you are an asshole and I am not.

    It's too late to try and kiss up to me now dude.

    >It is not gibberish. It means that something accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons.
    This “something” is the principle of distinction, and this “something” cannot be a creature, because it would mean that if there were no creation, then there would be no real distinction between the divine persons, which is absurd.

    Looks like what you are doing here is dogmatically decreeing that only physical or metaphysical distinctions are the only real distinctions that can exist. The real distinctions in the substances of creatures are either composite or potencies. But as all my commentators on Aquinas Q40 say in God there are no compositions, accidents or potencies, all is substance. The divine simplicity means God contains no physical composition and no metaphysical distinction. God cannot be divided into 33% subdivisions nor is God an irreducible composition of essence and being that are distinct but rather God's Essence is His Being. Legrange, McDermott and all the Thomistic commentators say because of the later God is in His own Deity or God is in His Own Godhead .

    The idea the "something" that distinguishes the opposing relations is either a creature or not a real distinction is a false dichotomy. One cannot exclude mysterious real distinction that is neither composition nor a potency(physical or metaphysical). One cannot reason by one's own intellect that such a thing exists in the Godhead only divine revelation can inform us.

    Is this what you are talking about?

    But cause I still don't see a contradiction other than thinking you are trying to image God contains real physical distinctions and Not RPD at the same time etc & thinking I think that is the Trinity.

    Which I don't. I stick close to the negative theology of Aquinas and the Eastern Church. I employ negative theology as the corrective to positive as dictated by Tradition.

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  139. Ben:

    It's too late to try and kiss up to me now dude.

    Ha!

    Looks like what you are doing here is dogmatically decreeing that only physical or metaphysical distinctions are the only real distinctions that can exist.

    Did I mention physical or metaphysical distinctions anywhere? Why on earth would you think that I’m making that point? My only point is that something accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons, and this something exists, which means that its existence is either unparticipated being or participated being. Physical or metaphysical real distinctions have absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

    The idea the "something" that distinguishes the opposing relations is either a creature or not a real distinction is a false dichotomy.

    Again, where on earth did you get that idea? The question is whether the “something” that distinguishes the opposing relations is either a creature or God himself (= Being itself = the divine essence), and not whether it is “either a creature or not a real distinction”.

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  140. >Did I mention physical or metaphysical distinctions anywhere? Why on earth would you think that I’m making that point?

    I'll take your word for it.

    >My only point is that something accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons, and this something exists, which means that its existence is either unparticipated being or participated being.

    This Something subsists in God therefore it is God, Being Itself, Pure Act, divine essence, unparticipated being, HaShem, YHWH, Tao, Allah, Eyn Sof etc…. and this Something is really distinct by opposing relations to the other Somethings. God exists so this subsisting Something exists. So where is the contradiction?

    >Again, where on earth did you get that idea?

    I thought from you? I am an American so I speak English not Canadian. I assume you are writing the Queen's English?

    >The question is whether the “something” that distinguishes the opposing relations is either a creature or God himself (= Being itself = the divine essence), and not whether it is “either a creature or not a real distinction”.

    This is more gibberish. It sounds like what distinguishes the distinctions? Opposing relations by definition are really distinct.
    Aquinas & Legrange say there is only a notional distinction between being the Person of the Father vs being the relationship of Divine Fatherhood in God. How is the Father or any divine relation not God? How is the Father or Son or Holy Spirit a Creature?

    I am still not getting the contradiction. I am not being obstinate I am trying to figure out what it is that is bugging you here that you think for good or ill is a contradiction.

    Where is Scott to explain this if it is true he understands the objection? Because maybe we need a fresh perspective?

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  141. Ben:

    This Something subsists in God therefore it is God, Being Itself, Pure Act, divine essence, unparticipated being, HaShem, YHWH, Tao, Allah, Eyn Sof etc…. and this Something is really distinct by opposing relations to the other Somethings. God exists so this subsisting Something exists. So where is the contradiction?

    If the divine persons share the divine essence in common, then the divine essence cannot be the principle of distinction, because the principle of unity cannot be identical to the principle of distinction, and the divine essence is the principle of unity of the divine persons. So, you cannot say that the principle of distinction, i.e. the “something” that you are talking about above, is “God, Being Itself, Pure Act, divine essence, unparticipated being”, because that would mean that the principle of unity is identical to the principle of distinction, which is impossible.

    I thought from you?

    Where did I mention physical or metaphysical real distinction anywhere?

    This is more gibberish.

    No. It is not gibberish. There is something that distinguishes the divine persons, because it is present in one divine person and absent in another. For example, what distinguishes the Father from the Son is that the latter is begotten and the former is not begotten. Being begotten is present in the Son and absent in the Father. Now, one can certainly ask whether being begotten, since it is an example of being something, is either Being itself or a created being, because being anything is either being God or being a creation of God.

    There is nothing nonsensical about this. There is God, and then there is everything else that exists. If something is not God, then it is his creation. That applies to the “something” that distinguishes the divine persons. If it is God, then you a logical contradiction, because what the divine persons have in common is that they are God and what they do not have in common is that they are God, which is nonsense. If it is not God, then it is a creature.

    It sounds like what distinguishes the distinctions? Opposing relations by definition are really distinct.

    A is really distinct from B. The only way for this to be possible if there is something that is present in A that is not present in B. This “something” is what distinguishes A from B, and this something must be something that exists, and thus it is either Being itself or a created being.

    It's ok, Ben. You're so close to understanding. Just keep trying. You'll get it. I believe in you!

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  142. >If the divine persons share the divine essence in common, then the divine essence cannot be the principle of distinction, because the principle of unity cannot be identical to the principle of distinction, and the divine essence is the principle of unity of the divine persons.

    I am merely stating the brute fact whatever subsists in God is God. The Something you mention is God in essence & how is affirming this truth any type of positive claim that the divine essence is the basis of distinction between the divine persons? It just simply isn't. Just as saying we are the same species is not the same as saying our common species is the basis of us both being distinct human beings.

    I am trying to follow your reasoning here but so far it's gibberish to me.

    >So, you cannot say that the principle of distinction, i.e. the “something” that you are talking about above, is “God, Being Itself, Pure Act, divine essence, unparticipated being”, because that would mean that the principle of unity is identical to the principle of distinction, which is impossible.

    The "Something" in God is God and as such is in no way distinct from being God from anything else in God including a hypothetical mysteriously distinct other something. The Something may be a distinct something relative to another something in God but that is still unremarkable.

    >Where did I mention physical or metaphysical real distinction anywhere?

    I am trying my best to infer what you mean because so far taking you literally hasn't gotten me anywhere.

    >No. It is not gibberish. There is something that distinguishes the divine persons, because it is present in one divine person and absent in another.

    The Persons are real relations and thus by definition are really distinct from their opposites. By definition a Father is opposite to a Son. You can't really be a Father unless you have an offspring of some type to be opposed to in relation. That is the nature of this relationship. There is no weird created creature something in God making the Father really distinct from the Son nor is it the divine essence doing so. By Definition real relations are really distinct from their opposite relations. A Classic concept of God which contains no real relations makes more sense then a God who contains One "relation" which is like taking about a Father who has never had any Children at all in any sense. Meaningless!

    > For example, what distinguishes the Father from the Son is that the latter is begotten and the former is not begotten

    This is a real relationship and it is as Lagrange and Aquinas say not any type of causality. The Father is the Source or Origin of the Son but not the Cause and the Son is not a Potency actualized by the Father. This uncreated real relationship between them is a great mystery.

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  143. .>Being begotten is present in the Son and absent in the Father. Now, one can certainly ask whether being begotten, since it is an example of being something, is either Being itself or a created being, because being anything is either being God or being a creation of God.

    I read Lagrange and Aquinas SCG BK4 both deny "being begotten" is the result of being caused. Again we have a mystery. Something is either caused or Uncaused since "the divine relation of being begotten/Son/Word" is not caused it must be uncaused and it opposes "the divine relation of Begetter/Father/Arc" and is thus really distinct, former to the later & vice versa while both being God without distinction. That is the mystery. I don't see a contradiction here. Trinity is going smoothy.


    >There is nothing nonsensical about this. There is God, and then there is everything else that exists.

    As a Thomist I don't believe God had to create so I don't have to think about anything else just God who would still be a Trinity if He never created and that which subsists in God which is God. So I don't get what creatures are doing here or how they are involved or relevant?

    > If something is not God, then it is his creation. That applies to the “something” that distinguishes the divine persons.

    dguller this is gibberish. Nothing causes the persons to be distinct from one another. It is the brute fact they are persons that means they are distinct. The brute fact that a real relation needs an opposite relation to be a real relation.

    >……. what the divine persons have in common is that they are God and what they do not have in common is that they are God, which is nonsense.

    Sorry but the Son being really distinct from the Father as an opposing relation doesn't make Him not God. You & I are members of the same species (we are in essence humans) but not the same member of that species. So I am still not getting the contradiction.

    >>It sounds like what distinguishes the distinctions? Opposing relations by definition are really distinct.

    >A is really distinct from B. The only way for this to be possible if there is something that is present in A that is not present in B.

    Yes we are back to the Father is not the same Person/relation as the Son but they are both still God. The divine relation of Begetter is not the divine relation of the begotten. So what?

    > This “something” is what distinguishes A from B, and this something must be something that exists, and thus it is either Being itself or a created being.

    dguller nothing but God by necessity need exists. So I don't see the purpose of all these creature tangents? If God never created then God would still be a Trinity.

    >It's ok, Ben. You're so close to understanding. Just keep trying. You'll get it. I believe in you!

    Rather I am just re-inforced in my belief you don't fully understand the doctrine or you have not yet learned how to articulate your alleged objection.

    Still I would like to hear from Scott if he really does understand your argument and can explain it to me.


    Cheers.

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  144. Sorry for the two posts. I don't want this to degenerate into a who can post the most or get the last word mishigoss.

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  145. In fact in the future I will leave out redundancies & try to respond to the main stuff.

    That is till I get bored.

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  146. Hi dguller,

    You wrote:

    "Being begotten is present in the Son and absent in the Father. Now, one can certainly ask whether being begotten, since it is an example of being something, is either Being itself or a created being, because being anything is either being God or being a creation of God."

    Being begotten is one way or mode of being God. In short, being a knower/lover, being known, and being loved are the three ways or modes of being God. I use the word "mode" deliberately, to denote something intrinsic to God (and not just our way of viewing God): the Catholic Encyclopedia, in its article on the Blessed Trinity at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm , uses the same word when it writes: "Granted that in the infinite mind, in which the categories are transcended, there are three relations which are subsistent realities, distinguished one from another in virtue of their relative opposition then it will follow that the same mind will have a three-fold consciousness, knowing itself in three ways in accordance with its three modes of existence."

    So the short answer is: there are three intrinsically distinct ways or modes of being God. That is an essential fact about God.

    I think you're also making the mistake of assuming that what distinguishes the persons if something, as if the Father is God + X, the Son is God + Y and the Holy Spirit is God + Z. No; there isn't any "plus anything." No "thing" is added to the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. You could if you like think of them as three poles or termini of the One Divine activity of God's knowing and loving Himself perfectly. I can't see a problem with putting it like that.

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  147. Sorry, that should be "is something" in the first sentence of the last paragraph, not "if something."

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  148. Ben:

    I am merely stating the brute fact whatever subsists in God is God. The Something you mention is God in essence & how is affirming this truth any type of positive claim that the divine essence is the basis of distinction between the divine persons?

    Because the “something” that I referred to was the principle of distinction. If you say that this “something” is God, then God is the principle of unity and the principle of distinction, which is impossible. So, the “something” must be something other than God, which is necessarily a creature.

    The "Something" in God is God and as such is in no way distinct from being God from anything else in God including a hypothetical mysteriously distinct other something. The Something may be a distinct something relative to another something in God but that is still unremarkable.

    If the “something” is God, then the very same “something” is both the principle of unity and the principle of distinction, which is impossible. This “something” must be other than God in order to avoid the contradiction, but that leaves you with the conclusion that this “something” must be a creature, which is also a contradiction.

    I read Lagrange and Aquinas SCG BK4 both deny "being begotten" is the result of being caused.

    Of course they would. Being caused is logically equivalent to being created, and so being begotten in the Son could not possibly be caused, because if it were, then the Son would be partly created, which is impossible. But that is precisely the problem. If “being begotten” is a principle of distinction, then “being begotten” cannot be identical to being God, or the divine essence, or Being itself, because the latter are the same principle of unity, and it is impossible for a principle of unity to be identical to a principle of distinction. It really isn’t complicated.

    Something is either caused or Uncaused since "the divine relation of being begotten/Son/Word" is not caused it must be uncaused

    Exactly, if X is something, then X is either uncaused (i.e. Being itself) or caused (i.e. a created being). Thus, being begotten is either caused or uncaused. If it is caused, then it is a creature, which is absurd. If it is uncaused, then it is identical to the divine essence (= being God = Being itself), which means that the principle of unity is identical to the principle of distinction, which is impossible. So, you are screwed, either way.

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  149. dguller this is gibberish. Nothing causes the persons to be distinct from one another. It is the brute fact they are persons that means they are distinct. The brute fact that a real relation needs an opposite relation to be a real relation.

    You’re not telling me anything that I don’t already know. I agree that it is absurd to claim that the principle of distinction of the divine persons is a creature. It must be false, because it would mean that the divine persons depend upon creation, which is impossible. We completely agree on this point.

    But you keep ignoring the other part of my argument, which is that the principle of unity of the divine persons cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of the divine persons. This is because it is impossible for what the divine persons have in common to be identical to what the divine persons do not have in common. That is the logical equivalent of affirming that X is not-X.

    Now, if the principle of unity of the divine persons is being God (= the divine essence = Being itself), then it necessarily follows that being God cannot be the principle of distinction. But since the principle of distinction cannot be God (= the divine essence = Being itself), then the principle of distinction must be other than God (= other than the divine essence = other than Being itself), and that can only be a created being, which we just saw is impossible.

    This is the important part. Did you see how I actually provided an argument for the conclusion that the principle of distinction of the divine persons must be a creature? It was right in the above two paragraphs. Do you see how rejecting that conclusion means rejecting the premises? You cannot reject the premise that the principle of unity of the divine persons is being God (= the divine essence = Being itself). You cannot reject the premise that the principle of unity of the divine persons cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of the divine persons, because that is equivalent to affirming a logical contradiction.

    So, what do you do? You have two equally compelling arguments based upon necessarily true premises that lead to contradictory conclusions. One argument concludes that the principle of distinction of the divine persons is a creature, and the other argument concludes that the principle of distinction of the divine persons is not a creature. Both conclusions cannot simultaneously be true, and thus one argument must be false, which means that you must reject at least one necessarily true premise.

    That is the dilemma.

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  150. Vincent:

    So the short answer is: there are three intrinsically distinct ways or modes of being God. That is an essential fact about God.

    That is perfectly fine. What these modes have in common is being God, and what they do not have in common is X. Since what they have in common cannot be identical to what they do not have in common, then it follows that being God cannot be identical to X. And since anything that is not God is a creature, it follows that X is a creature, which is absurd. To avoid this conclusion, you must reject either the premise that what the modes have in common is being God or the premise that what the modes have in common cannot be identical to what the modes do not have in common. But you cannot reject those premises, and so you are stuck with an unresolvable dilemma.

    I think you're also making the mistake of assuming that what distinguishes the persons if something, as if the Father is God + X, the Son is God + Y and the Holy Spirit is God + Z. No; there isn't any "plus anything." No "thing" is added to the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. You could if you like think of them as three poles or termini of the One Divine activity of God's knowing and loving Himself perfectly. I can't see a problem with putting it like that.

    No need to think of it in terms of adding anything to God. You can say that the Father is God-as-unbegotten and the Son is God-as-begotten. In other words, you have God-as-mode-1 and God-as-mode-2. But you still have to account for the distinction between mode 1 and mode 2, and this distinction must be based upon something, and this “something” must exist, which means that it is either uncreated being or created being.

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  151. Ben:

    Here’s the argument again, but more explicit.

    (1) C is a principle of unity between A and B iff A and B share C in common iff C is present in A and C is present in B


    (2) C is a principle of distinction between A and B iff A and B do not share C in common iff C is present in A and C is absent in B
    (3) A principle of unity between A and B cannot be identical to a principle of distinction between A and B
    (4) The divine persons share being God (= the divine essence = Being Itself) in common
    (5) Therefore, being God (= the divine essence = Being Itself) is a principle of unity between the divine persons (by (1), (4))
    (6) Therefore, being God (= the divine essence = Being Itself) cannot be identical to a principle of distinction between the divine persons (by (3), (5))
    (7) If A is not identical to being God (= the divine essence = Being Itself), then A is a creature
    (8) Therefore, a principle of distinction between the divine persons is a creature (by (6), (7))

    You clearly want to reject (8), because it violates core theological truths, and so you must reject one or more of the premises. Which will you reject? You cannot reject (1) or (2), because those are just definitions of what a principle of unity and a principle of distinction are. You cannot reject (3), because that would result in a logical contradiction, i.e. what A and B have in common is identical to what A and B do not have in common. You cannot reject (4), because the divine persons share being God in common. And you cannot reject (7), because it is true that if something is not God, then it is a creature.

    Dilemma, dilemma.

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  152. Some of your responses to me are a repeat of your "argument" which I still can't figure out. So forgive me we have said to each other all we can say so I will disregard some in my response(but I am not ignoring it. Let us just put it on the shelf).

    now for the nitty gritty.

    >Of course they(i.e. Aquinas Lagrange etc) would. Being caused is logically equivalent to being created, and so being begotten in the Son could not possibly be caused, because if it were, then the Son would be partly created, which is impossible.

    Right so far but you next statement is the rub.

    > But that is precisely the problem. If “being begotten” is a principle of distinction, then “being begotten” cannot be identical to being God, or the divine essence, or Being itself, because the latter are the same principle of unity, and it is impossible for a principle of unity to be identical to a principle of distinction. It really isn’t complicated.

    "The relation "being begotten" is the principle of distinction toward being the opposing relation "the begetter" only & the brute fact both are the one God and thus have the same divine essence which is their principle of unity & has really nothing to do with any observable or logical contradiction. So I agree it is not complicated but I still don't see the contradiction.

    >But you keep ignoring the other part of my argument, which is that the principle of unity of the divine persons cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of the divine persons.

    I simply don't understand what that means?

    The principle of distinction is opposing relations & the principle of unity is the divine essence. Yes the persons are united in essence but distinct in opposing relations. They are identical in the sense of essence but distinct in another sense of opposing relations. I see two senses here not one sense which we would need for a contradiction. Principle of Contradiction you can't have something be X and Not-X at the same time and in the same sense. We have two distinct senses here.

    >This is because it is impossible for what the divine persons have in common to be identical to what the divine persons do not have in common. That is the logical equivalent of affirming that X is not-X.

    X and Not-X isn't unqualified a contradiction but a contrary. A contradiction required claiming X is Not-X at the same time and in the same sense.

    Given the way the doctrine must be formulated I still can see no provable contradiction.

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  153. >Here’s the argument again, but more explicit.

    It is not explicit to me but more obscure. Theology has to be spelled out verbatum in theological postulates. That is it must be written out in words. It is not a mathematical formula.

    I don't conceive of the Trinity as G=RP=AE. I write it out as God is both relative persons and absolute essence.

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  154. VJ

    Do you think you know what dguller is talking about?

    I have tried to follow his argument and apply it to what I know of the dogmas of the Trinity and I can't figure it out? I can't see what he thinks this "contradiction" must be?

    Scott can you help a guy out?

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  155. Ben:

    >But you keep ignoring the other part of my argument, which is that the principle of unity of the divine persons cannot be identical to the principle of distinction of the divine persons. 



    I simply don't understand what that means?


    Look at the following passage from ST 1.40.2:

    “In whatever multitude of things is to be found something common to all, it is necessary to seek out the principle of distinction. So, as the three persons agree in the unity of essence, we must seek to know the principle of distinction whereby they are several. Now, there are two principles of difference between the divine persons, and these are "origin" and "relation."

    And

    “In a divine person there is nothing to presuppose but essence, and relation or property. Whence, since the persons agree in essence, it only remains to be said that the persons are distinguished from each other by the relations.”

    Why didn’t he just say that the divine persons are distinguished on the basis of the fact that they “agree in the unity of essence” and “agree in essence”? Why did he say that they are “distinguished from each other by the relations”? If the dvine essence is the divine relations, and the divine relations are the principle of distinction between the divine persons, then why didn’t he just say that the divine essence is the principle of distinction?

    He clearly rejects that possibility, because he says that because the divine persons share the divine essence in common, the divine essence cannot be the principle of distinction between the divine persons, but rather the principle of distinction must be something else, which he identifies as the divine relations. And this is because “[t]hat which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction” (QDV 8.8), i.e. what two things have in common cannot be identical to what two things do not have in common.

    Do you really not see that?

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  156. >Why didn’t he just say that the divine persons are distinguished on the basis of the fact that they “agree in the unity of essence” and “agree in essence”? Why did he say that they are “distinguished from each other by the relations”? If the dvine essence is the divine relations, and the divine relations are the principle of distinction between the divine persons, then why didn’t he just say that the divine essence is the principle of distinction?

    I don't know why Aquinas uses the phrasing he does other then difficulties translating the Latin and I don't see the problem here? I read ST 1.40.2 and the commentaries by Lagrange and McDermott. The reply to Obj 4 seems interesting.

    Saying the divine relations are the divine essence is equivolent to saying the divine persons are God. They are that is they exist in God in the divine nature & they do so without real distinction as God. But their real distinction is or exists toward one another. That is the real distinction is from person to person as persons because of opposing relations. Persons in God are defined as Subsisting relations which by definition are really distinct from their opposite relations in God. The divine essence is not the principle of distinction because the Persons are still both really God but in God they are not each other by opposing relation.

    >He clearly rejects that possibility, because he says that because the divine persons share the divine essence in common, the divine essence cannot be the principle of distinction between the divine persons, but rather the principle of distinction must be something else, which he identifies as the divine relations.

    He does that because He identifies real relations between things as a type of real distinction.

    >And this is because “[t]hat which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction” (QDV 8.8), i.e. what two things have in common cannot be identical to what two things do not have in common.

    I looked up the full quote"That which is the principle of unity cannot be the principle of distinction. Now, the essence of an angel is the principle of his unity, for it is by means of his essence that an angel is one. Therefore, his essence cannot be the principle of knowledge about things distinct from him.
    4. Nothing except God is that which it has., But an angel has intellectual power. Therefore, he is not intellectual power. Much less is he that by which he understands. Consequently, he does not understand t1iings by means of his essence."End Quote

    In context I don't see how this quote makes it impossible for divine relations to be the principle of distinction in God given the unity of the divine essence. God is still that which He has so if God has real relations in his nature then God is those relations. If God has his essence then God is His essence which is Him being God without distinction as God.

    So I really with all due respect don't see the problem?

    Good night. This is for you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwDvF0NtgdU

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  157. Ben:

    I don't know why Aquinas uses the phrasing he does other then difficulties translating the Latin and I don't see the problem here? I read ST 1.40.2 and the commentaries by Lagrange and McDermott. The reply to Obj 4 seems interesting.

    You’re missing the point. Aquinas could have just said that the principle of distinction between the divine persons is the divine essence, but he didn’t. He specifically rejected that possibility: “since the persons agree in essence, it only remains to be said that the persons are distinguished from each other by the relations.” In other words, because the persons have the essence in common, the essence cannot be that which they do not have in common. So, he needs something other than the essence to account for the real distinction between the divine persons, and since he said that “[i]n a divine person there is nothing to presuppose but essence, and relation”, he opts for “relation”. But this assumes that relation is not identical to essence, because if it were identical to essence, then he would be left with the contradiction that what the persons have in common is identical to what the persons do not have in common.

    Think about it this way. Say that the persons have X in common. Each person is X, and thus they cannot be distinguished on the basis of X, because X is in each person, but rather must be distinguished on the basis of something else, i.e. something that is not-X. To claim that X, which they have in common, is also what they do not have in common means that the persons are X and are not-X, which is a logical contradiction. That would be like saying that you and I share being a human being in common and we do not share being a human being in common, which is impossible.

    That is why Aquinas rejects the essence as the principle of distinction. If he didn’t, then he would be saying that the persons have the essence in common and the persons do not have the essence in common, which is a contradiction. If A and B share X in common, and A and B do not share Y in common, then X cannot be identical to Y, on pain of logical contradiction.

    Get it?

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  158. Dguller wonder if the scotist solution works for you at all?

    http://lyfaber.blogspot.com/2010/02/divine-simplicity-and-formal_20.html

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  159. Anonymous:

    I don’t think the Scotist formal distinction solves the problems that I’ve proposed for the Thomist account of the Trinity. After all, the formal distinction is just a kind of real distinction, meaning that a formal distinction between A and B is not a distinction that only exists in one’s mind, but also corresponds to something outside of one’s mind. The main difference, as far as I understand it, is that one kind of real distinction is such that A and B are separable and another kind of real distinction is such that A and B are inseparable. The latter would correspond to the Scotist formal distinction. But the sheer fact that the formal distinction is still a kind of real distinction means that A cannot be identical to B, even though A may be inseparable from B.

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  160. Ben:

    Sorry, and one more thing. Scott wrote: "dguller's argument is that the divine persons can't be both united and distinguished by the very same common feature". So, clearly, someone understands my argument, meaning that it isn't incoherent and meaningless gibberish, as you seem determined to pretend it is.

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  161. Anonymous:

    And just to support my claims, here’s Faber:

    “The basic division of distinctions for Scotus is between those caused by the mind and those independent of the mind. Distinctions independent of the mind he calls distinctions ex natura rei. This includes the real distinction, which he calls a distinctio realis-actualis and devotes little space to the examination of it, and the formal distinction. The real distinction is distinguished from the formal distinction by real separability. Items distinguished by a real distinction can exist independently of each other, while for the formal distinction this is not the case; they are inseparably united.”

    http://lyfaber.blogspot.ca/2011/03/formal-distinction.html

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  162. dguller, Since you mentioned that you believe in some ultimate explanatory principle, Do you believe this principle has an intellect and a will?

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  163. Hi dguller,

    You've accepted Scott's characterization of your argument: "dguller's argument is that the divine persons can't be both united and distinguished by the very same common feature." So let's go from there.

    Earlier I wrote that what the three persons have in common is "being God," while what distinguishes them is their ways of being God. I now see that this way of putting things only creates confusion, leading to your counter-argument: "What these modes have in common is being God, and what they do not have in common is X. Since what they have in common cannot be identical to what they do not have in common, then it follows that being God cannot be identical to X."

    To resolve this conundrum, we need to get away from the term "being." Personally, I don't think that describing God as "Being Itself" goes far enough. We call something a being because it acts. So we need to ask the deeper question: what kind of activity characterizes God? That activity, as I have stated, is perfect knowing-and-loving.

    What the three Divine persons have in common, then, is that activity in which they all partake: God's self-knowledge and self-love. But it's a tripolar activity, due to the inherent opposition between the knower and the known, and between the lover and the beloved. So what distinguishes the three persons is not the activity as such but the three "poles" of that activity: the internal relations of opposition which characterize the activity itself. These "poles" are inseparable from one another, but they are nonetheless distinct.

    Now let's return to your conundrum. You argue that either the relations are identical with God's being or they're not. If they're not, they're less than God (which is absurd), and if they are, then what distinguishes the persons is the same as what they have in common: God's being. But what you're assuming here is the transitivity of the identity relation: that if A=B, and B=C, then A=C. But as Cole Porter would say, "It ain't necessarily so."

    God's activity of knowing-and-loving-Himself is identical with God's being. God's relations between God as knower-lover, God as known and God as loved, are also identical with God's being. It doesn't follow, however, that God's activity of knowing-and-loving-Himself is identical with His internal relations. (Indeed, that would be impossible: an activity cannot be identical with a relationship.) Hence, it doesn't follow that what the Divine persons have in common is also what distinguishes them. I hope that helps.

    Finally, here's a reply to your conundrum from Aquinas himself (S.T. I, q. 28, art. 3):

    "Objection 1. It would seem that the divine relations are not really distinguished from each other. For things which are identified with the same, are identified with each other. But every relation in God is really the same as the divine essence. Therefore the relations are not really distinguished from each other.

    "Reply to Objection 1. According to the Philosopher (Phys. iii), this argument holds, that whatever things are identified with the same thing are identified with each other, if the identity be real and logical; as, for instance, a tunic and a garment; but not if they differ logically. Hence in the same place he says that although action is the same as motion, and likewise passion; still it does not follow that action and passion are the same; because action implies reference as of something "from which" there is motion in the thing moved; whereas passion implies reference as of something "which is from" another. Likewise, although paternity, just as filiation, is really the same as the divine essence; nevertheless these two in their own proper idea and definitions import opposite respects. Hence they are distinguished from each other."

    Aquinas has anticipated and resolved your difficulty.

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  164. >Aquinas could have just said that the principle of distinction between the divine persons is the divine essence, but he didn’t.

    Because when you spell out the doctrine it is absurd to claim the Persons are really distinct by both being the One God. When we say the Persons have the divine essence in common and have the same principle of unity we are merely saying the Persons are both God without distinction. Why would Aquinas want to as a Catholic Christian and a Saint to deny the Deity of the Persons? He wasn't a Muslim or a Rabbinic Jew. So I still don't see the Problem? Also it doesn't make sense that Aquinas would say the principle of distinction between the divine persons is the divine essence. The Persons aren't distinct because they are God. They are distinct because in God they are opposing relations.


    >So, he needssomething other than the essence to account for the real distinction between the divine persons, and since he said that “[i]n a divine person there is nothing to presuppose but essence, and relation”, he opts for “relation”.

    That is just another way of saying that when we predicate a specific divine person that person contains both His Divinity which He shares without distinction with the other persons and his opposing relation which He does not share with other persons. So I still don't see the problem?

    > But this assumes that relation is not identical to essence, because if it were identical to essence, then he would be left with the contradiction that what the persons have in common is identical to what the persons do not have in common.

    Think of this practically like I do. This DOES NOT assume the relations/persons are not equally God or predicated individually or collectively as not the One God but the relations are by nature as relations really distinct from one to another. Again I don't see the problem but I thank you for being a better man then me & having way way more patience then I would/could ever have shown you in similar circumstances.

    >Scott wrote: "dguller's argument is that the divine persons can't be both united and distinguished by the very same common feature".

    But the persons are not united and distinguished by the very same common feature? The persons are not distinguished by being God(being identical in essence) but distinguished by being opposing relations in God the later being the principle of distinction. I see no way to get from being opposing relations in God to Not-being God and being God at the same time.

    So this idea the divine essence is shown to be both the principle of distinction and unity(i.e. X) makes no sense and given what I understand the Trinity to be I can't get to X.

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  165. @VJ

    Our answer is even simpler. The claims of the doctrine of the Trinity are silly not claims that the divine persons are both united and distinguished by the very same common feature(X). Nor do they lead to X.

    1) They are united by feature A all being God.

    2) They are distinguished by feature A1 being opposing relations in God.

    3) They are distinct one to another in God but because they share the same essence we must say they are really distinct but not really separate.

    4) Maybe contradiction arises if we see the persons as both distinct and separate in God? But then you are no longer talking about the Trinity.

    5) Being Itself does not go far enough in fact no language exhausts God. But I submit that is neither here no there.

    Cheers Brother.

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  166. OY VEY! STUPID F***ING SPELL CHECK MAKING ME LOOK STUPID!!!!!!!!!

    Sorry!

    edit:The claims of the doctrine of the Trinity are simply not claims that the divine persons are both united and distinguished by the very same common feature(X). Nor do they lead to X.

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  167. Divine relations/persons only differ logically from the
    divine essence/being God. They differ in the mind. They don't differ logically from each other as persons but differ really because of opposing relations.

    Seems simple enough.

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  168. Vincent:

    What the three Divine persons have in common, then, is that activity in which they all partake: God's self-knowledge and self-love. But it's a tripolar activity, due to the inherent opposition between the knower and the known, and between the lover and the beloved. So what distinguishes the three persons is not the activity as such but the three "poles" of that activity: the internal relations of opposition which characterize the activity itself. These "poles" are inseparable from one another, but they are nonetheless distinct.

    First, as I mentioned earlier, God’s knowledge of himself is not composed of two really distinct components, i.e. the knower and the known. In God, the knower is the known: “His intellect and its object are altogether the same” and “the intelligible species itself is the divine intellect itself, and thus God understands Himself through Himself” (ST 1.14.2). The same goes for God’s love of himself, i.e. the lover is the beloved. Any distinction between them only exists in our mind, i.e. is a notional distinction. Again, this is one of the bizarre consequences of divine simplicity.

    Second, your account does not resolve the dilemma that I’ve posed for the Trinity. If the poles are distinct from one another, then there must be something about one pole that distinguishes it from another pole. In other words, there must be a principle of distinction between the poles themselves. The question is still whether this principle of distinction is identical to the divine essence or not. If it is identical to the divine essence, then you have a logical contradiction, because what the poles have in common is identical to what the poles do not have in common. If it is not identical to the divine essence, then the principle of distinction is a creature.

    Now let's return to your conundrum. You argue that either the relations are identical with God's being or they're not. If they're not, they're less than God (which is absurd), and if they are, then what distinguishes the persons is the same as what they have in common: God's being. But what you're assuming here is the transitivity of the identity relation: that if A=B, and B=C, then A=C. But as Cole Porter would say, "It ain't necessarily so."

    Of course, it is. Even Aquinas uses the principle of transitive identity when reasoning about the Trinity. At ST 1.42.5, he writes:



    “The Father is in the Son by His essence, forasmuch as the Father is His own essence, and communicates His essence to the Son not by any change on His part. Hence it follows that as the Father's essence is in the Son, the Father Himself is in the Son.”



    This argument presupposes the validity of the law of transitive identity. It basically argues that if the Father is the divine essence, and if the divine essence is in the Son, then the Father is in the Son. So, Aquinas clearly agrees with using the law of transitive identity in reasoning about the Trinity, and yet it is prohibited from making the inference that the Father is the Son. Why? It is based upon the exact same argument that Aquinas clearly accepts as sound.

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  169. God's activity of knowing-and-loving-Himself is identical with God's being. God's relations between God as knower-lover, God as known and God as loved, are also identical with God's being. It doesn't follow, however, that God's activity of knowing-and-loving-Himself is identical with His internal relations. (Indeed, that would be impossible: an activity cannot be identical with a relationship.) Hence, it doesn't follow that what the Divine persons have in common is also what distinguishes them. I hope that helps.

    But the problem with this account is that the divine intellect is the divine will. They are not distinct activities, but are one and the same activity. In God, knowing is willing. So, when you say that the divine essence is God’s activity of knowing-and-loving-Himself, you are just using different terms for one and the same activity. As Aquinas writes: “as His intellect is His own existence, so is His will” (ST 1.19.1). And since God as knower is identical to God as known, then there is only a notional distinction between them, as I’ve mentioned above. In that case, all the distinctions that you have postulated are notional, and you are just using different terms – God’s being, God as knower, God as known, God as lover, God as beloved – for one and the same thing. In other words, there is nothing about God’s being that is different in reality from God as knower (or as known, as lover, as beloved, etc.). Thus, the principle of transitive identity must apply to our reasoning here, because there is only a notional distinction between God’s being, God as knower, God as known, God as lover, and God as beloved, which means that they are all interconvertible terms for one and the same reality.

    Finally, here's a reply to your conundrum from Aquinas himself (S.T. I, q. 28, art. 3)

    I’ve seen that reply, and it is unconvincing to me.

    Look at what Aquinas says. He says that paternity “is really the same as the divine essence”, but that “these two in their own proper idea and definitions import opposite respects”. In reality, they are one and the same, but in our minds, they “import opposite respects” and thus are “distinguished from each other”. What is this if not saying that the distinction between paternity and the divine essence is a notional distinction, such that they only differ in our minds as different ideas?

    Again, to say that the distinction between the divine essence and the divine relations is “only … in its mode of intelligibility” (ST 1.28.2) and “differ in our way of thinking” (ST 1.39.1) just means that there is no difference in reality between the divine essence and the divine relations. The distinction between them is exclusively and only in our minds, and does not correspond to reality at all. It is like the distinction between goodness and being, which also “differ only in idea” and “differ in thought” (ST 1.5.1).

    And this means that just because in our minds, there is a necessary distinction between fatherhood and sonship in God, it does not follow that this distinction exists in reality, and we can just say that our minds necessarily include this distinction, which does not correspond to anything in reality. And in that case, the law of transitive identity applies, and my argument holds.

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  170. Ben:

    When we say the Persons have the divine essence in common and have the same principle of unity we are merely saying the Persons are both God without distinction.

    What do you mean “God without distinction”? What are the distinctions that you are excluding? Is this the real physical and metaphysical distinctions that you keep bringing up? And even so, if the divine essence is being God without distinction, then being God without distinction is the principle of unity of the divine persons, which means that the principle of distinction cannot be being God without distinction, and since anything that is not being God without distinction is a creature, it follows that the principle of distinction is a creature.

    The Persons aren't distinct because they are God. They are distinct because in God they are opposing relations.

    Then being opposing relations is a creature, because being opposing relations must be really distinct from being God without distinction.

    That is just another way of saying that when we predicate a specific divine person that person contains both His Divinity which He shares without distinction with the other persons and his opposing relation which He does not share with other persons. So I still don't see the problem?

    Again, if one divine person does not share with the other divine persons his opposing relation, then it follows that his opposing relation is not identical to being God, and thus the former is a creature. Like I said, it does not matter what you say is the principle of distinction, because if you say that the divine essence (= Being itself = being God = his divinity, or whatever) is the principle of unity, then whatever the principle of distinction is cannot be the divine essence (= Being itself = being God = his divinity, or whatever), and thus must be a creature.

    1) They are united by feature A all being God.



    2) They are distinguished by feature A1 being opposing relations in God.


    But the question is what the relationship is between A and A1. Are they the same or not the same? If they are the same, then you a contradiction, because the divine persons are united by and distinguished by one and the same feature. If they are different, then the distinguishing feature A1 is a creature.

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  171. Tap:

    dguller, Since you mentioned that you believe in some ultimate explanatory principle, Do you believe this principle has an intellect and a will?

    I believe that this principle contains all forms within itself in an immaterial mode of being (= intellect) and that it actualizes the contents of its intellect by virtue of a power (= will). Furthermore, by virtue of metaphysical simplicity, its intellect is its will.

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  172. Vincent:

    Sorry, I just wanted to be more clear about my response to Aquinas at ST 1.28.3.

    He writes:

    “Reply to Objection 1. According to the Philosopher (Phys. iii), this argument holds, that whatever things are identified with the same thing are identified with each other, if the identity be real and logical; as, for instance, a tunic and a garment; but not if they differ logically. Hence in the same place he says that although action is the same as motion, and likewise passion; still it does not follow that action and passion are the same; because action implies reference as of something "from which" there is motion in the thing moved; whereas passion implies reference as of something "which is from" another. Likewise, although paternity, just as filiation, is really the same as the divine essence; nevertheless these two in their own proper idea and definitions import opposite respects. Hence they are distinguished from each other."

    He agrees that the principle of transitive identity – if A = C and B = C, then A = B – only if “the identity be real and logical”, but that the principle of transitive identity does not apply “if they differ logically”. So, the key factor that determines whether the principle of transitive identity is applicable is whether there is a real identity between the referents of the terms, i.e. one is using different terms that all refer to one and the same thing in reality. In other words, if A, B and C are only notionally distinct, then the principle of transitive identity is applicable to them.

    His example involves action, passion and motion. He says that action is identical to motion and passion is identical to motion, but it does not follow that action is identical to passion. But this is only because they are distinct in our minds. In other words, the same motion can be considered from the standpoint of action and from the standpoint of passion, but they are both just different aspects of the exact same motion. And the question is whether action is really distinct from passion or not. If action is not really distinct from passion, then the principle of transitive identity is operative, and action is identical to passion, and any distinction between them only exists in our minds, and does not correspond to anything outside of our minds in reality. If action is really distinct from passion, then the principle of transitive identity is not operative, and thus, action is not identical to passion.

    I would argue that the distinction between action and passion is a notional distinction. In reality, there is only the single motion, which can be considered by the human mind according from the standpoint of action and from the standpoint of passion, but these different perspectives are solely within the human mind. And therefore, using this as an example would lead me to conclude that paternity and filiation are also notionally distinct, and that any distinction between them only exists in our minds, and does not correspond to anything outside of the mind in reality.

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  173. Hi dguller,

    With the greatest respect, you are misreading Aquinas on the law of transitivity of identity. I can express what he's saying using the modern Fregean terminology of sense and reference (Sinn and Bedeutung). What Aquinas holds is that:

    (a) if A and B have the same sense as well as the same reference, then of course we may legitimately infer that they are identical;

    (b) if they have the same reference but not the same sense then we may still infer identity; but

    (c) if they have the same reference but opposing senses, then transitivity of identity does not apply.

    Aquinas' own examples, which you cite, prove this. You quote him as saying (S.T. I.42.5) that since the Father is the same as His essence, which is communicated to the Son, then the Father Himself is in the Son. This is a legitimate inference because although the Father is notionally distinct from the Divine essence, there is no opposition between them. So this is a case of type (b).

    On the other hand, Aquinas writes (S.T. I.28.3) that paternity is not the same as filiation even though both are identical to the Divine essence. The reason is that there is an opposition between the two: paternity and filiation are opposite poles of the same activity (God's knowing Himself). Hence transitivity of identity does not apply. This is a case of type (c).

    Finally, you write that "paternity and filiation are also notionally distinct, and that any distinction between them only exists in our minds." Really? Are you serious? You think there's no real difference between being a father and being a son? Frankly, I'm incredulous.

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  174. >What do you mean “God without distinction”?

    They are the same God without distinction. They are the same God not two different gods. Why is this hard for you?

    > which means that the principle of distinction cannot be being God without distinction,and since anything that is not being God without distinction is a creature, it follows that the principle of distinction is a creature.

    Anything that is not God is a creature, again why do you keep throwing in this irrelevant tangent? God would still be a Trinity even if from all eternity He willed not to create. You have not shown the opposing relations are creatures you just ad hoc decreed it without logical argument or theological deduction. The opposing relations are God without distinction as God. Meaning they are the same God even if they are distinct relations in God. Back to square one and you have not shown me this magical invisible contradiction.

    >Again, if one divine person does not share with the other divine persons his opposing relation,

    By definition a divine person is simply an opposing relation. There are no accidents in God so what you have written here is
    incoherent & implies opposing relation is some added property to the divine person or consistent with your "argument" some creature added to the persons & the divine mix to make them really distinct.

    So far your argument is a mess & I can't make heads or tail of it. Sorry buddy.

    >Like I said, it does not matter what you say is the principle of distinction, because if you say that the divine essence (= Being itself = being God = his divinity, or whatever) is the principle of unity, then whatever the principle of distinction is cannot be the divine essence (= Being itself = being God = his divinity, or whatever), and thus must be a creature.

    The principle of distinction is not the divine essence nor is it a creature. It is opposing relations subsisting in the divine essence. Whatever subsists in God is God. If real relations subsist in God then they are God, fully divine and there is no distinction between them as God. They are One God not many & creatures are irrelevant.

    >But the question is what the relationship is between A and A1. Are they the same or not the same?

    Now we are back to asking what is the atomic weight of natural selection? They are different types of predications about God & they both say something true about God. But they are different categories of predication. So I am still not getting the "argument" and it still looks like gibberish.

    >If they are the same, then you a contradiction, because the divine persons are united by and distinguished by one and the same feature. If they are different, then the distinguishing feature A1 is a creature.

    Being God is one feature and being an opposing relation in God is another feature. You are mixing categories.

    This is at best argument by category mistake at worst it is still gibberish. We have made no progress sadly. I am still not getting the argument in light of what I know about the doctrine of the Trinity and Natural Theology.

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  175. @Vincent & dguller.

    >Finally, you write that "paternity and filiation are also notionally distinct, and that any distinction between them only exists in our minds." Really? Are you serious? You think there's no real difference between being a father and being a son? Frankly, I'm incredulous.

    Lagrange pointed out in his commentaries on the Summa that paternity and filiation where real relations and Aquinas rejected they where notional.

    So if dguller wants to make a case against the doctrine of the Trinity based on paternity and filiation not being real relations that is fine except that is not the same as claiming an internal contraction in the doctrine based on Thomism.

    Aquinas assumes they are a real relationship.

    Cheers.

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  176. >What is the relationship between A and A1?

    What is the relationship between opposing relations subsisting in the divine essence & the divine essence?

    It's the same as asking what is the relationship between opposing relations subsisting in God & being God?

    How should I know what God is? I only know stuff about him.

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  177. Vincent

    "January 4, 2014 at 7:00 PM"

    I wish I had this response 3000 posts ago it would have saved me a lot of ajada and dguller a lot of verbal abuse from my keyboard.

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  178. Vincent:

    With the greatest respect, you are misreading Aquinas on the law of transitivity of identity.

    First, let’s just nail down why the argument that I’ve cited at ST 1.42.5 is a problem. He argues that since the Father is the divine essence, and the divine essence is in the Son, then the Father is in the Son. The implicit premise is that if P is a property of the divine essence, then P is a property of the Father. Since being in the Son is a property of the divine essence, then being in the Son is a property of the Father. But this does not work, because being the Son is also a property of the divine essence, and thus being the Son should be a property of the Father, as well, but it is not, and thus the implicit premise is false, which means that the argument is unsound, because it does not work without that implicit premise.

    Second, I think I was wrong to cite the principle of transitive identity in the argument at ST 1.42.5. The argument is about properties of things, and not about their identity. I still don’t think that it works, though, reasons that I’ve just explained.

    Third, if the Father is notionally distinct from the divine essence and if the Son is notionally distinct from the divine essence, then it follows that any differences between the Father, the Son and the divine essence are only in our minds, and in reality, they are all one and the same thing. If they are all one and the same thing, then it follows that the properties of one are identical to the properties of the others, and therefore, the Father is the Son. The only way to avoid this conclusion is to deny that there is a notional distinction between either the Father and the divine essence or the Son and the divine essence. There must be a real distinction between the Father (or the Son) and the divine essence in order to negate the conclusion that the Father is the Son.

    So, if the Father and the Son are really distinct from one another, then they differ from each other in some way, i.e. in terms of their oppositional relations. Specifically, they differ in terms of the presence or absence of being begotten. The Father lacks this property and the Son has this property, and thus they are really distinct from one another, because of this principle of distinction. Say that the Father is supposed to be identical to the divine essence. That just means that they are two different terms for one and the same thing. They share everything in common, because they are not actually two things, but just two ways of talking about the exact same thing. But then it follows that the Son cannot be identical to the divine essence in the same way that the Father is. Perhaps you are talking figuratively, such as when one says that Michael Jordan is the Chicago Bulls, but you cannot mean that they are literally identical in the same sense as the identity between the Father and the divine essence. And if the Son is not identical to the divine essence in the strict sense in which the Father is identical to the divine essence, then the Son differs from the divine essence in some way, which means that they are really distinct from one another.

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  179. (b) if they have the same reference but not the same sense then we may still infer identity; but 



    (c) if they have the same reference but opposing senses, then transitivity of identity does not apply.


    I don’t see why the distinction between (b) and (c) is relevant. The argument is not about the senses, but about the reference. Say that you have a referent R, and R has three different senses S1, S2 and S3, each of which has a different term T1, T2, and T3. To me, the sense is just how the referent presents itself to the human mind as a linguistic and cognitive mental construct. So, all this means is that R presents itself to the human mind as S1, S2 and S3, and we have different terms for each sense.

    Say that S1 opposes S2. What does this matter? They still refer to R, and the argument is not about the S1 and S2, but about R. Similarly, when we talk about goodness and being, we are talking about the same R such that goodness is being, but their differences only exist in the mind as different ideas, or senses, in this case. The properties that the referent of “goodness” has are completely identical to the properties that the referent of “being” has, because they are one and the same thing. Whatever oppositions and contradictions that exist between S1 and S2 only exist in the human mind, and do not correspond to R at all, unless you are actually talking about different parts or aspects of R, but then the reference is the different aspects of R, and not R itself.

    So, I don’t see the difference that your distinction between (b) and (c) is supposed to make. If we can say that some aspects of the senses exist only in our mind, and do not correspond to anything real in the reference, then why can’t we do the same for the contradictory aspects of the senses of “the Father” and “the Son”? We would have to do that in order to presence the identity between the Father, the Son and the divine essence, assuming that it is the same kind of identity between them. But there is full and total identity, and there is partial identity. If you claim that the kinds of identity between them is different, then one must be total identity and the other must be partial identity (or, both can be different kinds of partial identity). But the one that is partially identical is actually really distinct, because there is some real difference between them, and thus either the Father or the Son is really distinct from the divine essence.

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  180. Ben:

    With all due respect, I think that we can stop our conversation. I've tried to explain my argument to you dozens of times. Since people have understood it, it is clearly understandable. I would be okay if you said that you understood it, but thought it was unsound. However, you just don't understand it at all. I may as well be speaking to you in a foreign language, which would mean that any ongoing dialogue between us on this subject will be a complete waste of time.

    Take care.

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  181. Vincent:

    And one more thing about knowing and loving. Knowledge is just the assimilation of the known object in the knower within the latter’s intellect. In God, there is no real distinction between the knower and the known, because they are one and the same. Loving is just the movement of the will towards the good, which is identified by the intellect, which presents what it considers to be true and good to the will to then act upon. Aquinas says that “love is the first movement of the will” and that “in whomsoever there is will and appetite, there must also be love” (ST 1.20.1). But since in God, intellect is will, there are not two sets of really distinct activities in God, i.e. knowing and willing, but rather knowing is willing. Therefore, there cannot be a real distinction between God’s knowing and God’s loving, because then there would be a real distinction between God’s intellect and God’s will, which is impossible by virtue of divine simplicity. And this just goes to support my claim that God’s being, God as knower, God as known, God as lover and God as loved are all just different terms and senses for the exact same reference. Any distinction between any of them only exists in our minds, including the distinction between different kinds of activity (i.e. knowing versus loving), and the distinction within those particular activities (i.e. knower versus known, lover versus loved).

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  182. dguller bare with me, i'm going somewhere with these questions

    you said:

    "I believe that this principle contains all forms within itself in an immaterial mode of being (= intellect) and that it actualizes the contents of its intellect by virtue of a power (= will). Furthermore, by virtue of metaphysical simplicity, its intellect is its will."

    Given that this principle actualizes the contents of its intellect by virtue of the will. I assume you'll agree that not every content of this principles intellect is actuallized, For example not every possible world or every possible creature in the divine intellect was created, so even though this "extra content" is in the divine "mind."

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  183. Hi dguller,

    You write that "if the Father is notionally distinct from the divine essence and if the Son is notionally distinct from the divine essence, then it follows that any differences between the Father, the Son and the divine essence are only in our minds, and in reality, they are all one and the same thing." That doesn't follow. What follows is that "any differences between the Father and the Divine essence OR between the Son and the Divine essence are in the mind, but they are both one and the same thing." I say "in the mind" rather than "in our minds" because these differences exist in God's Mind too. They are not just differences in our ways of thinking about God: that's modalism.

    You also write that "There must be a real distinction between the Father (or the Son) and the divine essence in order to negate the conclusion that the Father is the Son," and you add: "Say that S1 opposes S2. What does this matter? They still refer to R, and the argument is not about the S1 and S2, but about R." What you're assuming is that R (the Divine essence) is inherently monistic. What I'm saying is that God is inherently tripolar - that opposition is part and parcel of the very nature of God - but that the three poles can be understood as referring to one and the same activity (God's knowing-and-loving Himself).

    You also write: "Whatever oppositions and contradictions that exist between S1 and S2 only exist in the human mind, and do not correspond to R at all, unless you are actually talking about different parts or aspects of R, but then the reference is the different aspects of R, and not R itself." As I've said, the Father and the Son are indeed different "modes of existence" (to quote The Catholic Encyclopedia) of R (the Divine essence). But they're not like God's justice and God's mercy. Those are complementary aspects of God but not in any way oppositional, whereas knower vs. known and lover vs. beloved are inherently oppositional relations.

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  184. Hi dguller,

    You quote Aquinas as saying (S.T. I.14.2) that God's intellect and its object are "altogether the same," but here's what he actually says: "Since therefore God has nothing in Him of potentiality, but is pure act, His intellect and its object are altogether the same; so that He neither is without the intelligible species, as is the case with our intellect when it understands potentially; nor does the intelligible species differ from the substance of the divine intellect, as it differs in our intellect when it understands actually; but the intelligible species itself is the divine intellect itself, and thus God understands Himself through Himself." What Aquinas is asserting here is that there is no real difference between God's intellect and His essence. He does not say, however, that the two terms have the same sense, or that they are notionally equivalent. Nor does he claim that there's no opposition between God's intellect and His idea of himself.

    You ask: "If we can say that some aspects of the senses exist only in our mind, and do not correspond to anything real in the reference, then why can't we do the same for the contradictory aspects of the senses of 'the Father' and 'the Son'?" The answer is that the difference in sense between God as knower/lover, God as known and God as beloved don't exist "only in our mind"; they exist in God's Mind too. Also the senses of God as 'Father' and God as 'Son' are not contradictory but oppositional, which is what makes them really distinct.

    Finally, you discuss whether the identity between God and 'the Father' is full or partial identity. As regards the reference, there is full identity, but the sense is different. Ditto for God and 'the Son.' But from the fact that there is no opposition between A [God] and B [the Father], or between A [God] and C [the Son], it does not follow that there is no opposition between B [the Father] and C [the Son]. That's a non sequitur.

    I realize that the idea of two notional distinctions "giving rise to" a real distinction might sound strange to you, but it would be better to say it's the other way round: the real distinction between the Father and the Son (or between the knower and the known) is what gives rise to the notional distinctions between God's activity of knowing-and-loving-Himself and God as knower, or between God's activity of knowing-and-loving-Himself and God as known.

    In short: there's no good parallel to the Trinity. I'd say it's a little like the three-fold concept of a triangle, except that a triangle has parts. I hope the explanation I've given above is of some assistance to you. Cheers.

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  185. @dguller

    >I would be okay if you said that you understood it, but thought it was unsound.

    It is in fact unsound but then again you keep moving the goal posts so it's hard to nail down. But as far as I can tell.

    There is a claim the principle of distinction is the same as the principle of unity because the divine relations
    are only notionally distinct from the divine essence.

    Accept that the principle of unity here is that the divine persons are the divine essence which means they are God. There is no difference between them in being God. The Principle of distinction is the divine persons in God are opposing relations one to another. They are opposing relations & it is wrong to say they have opposing relations as if opposing relations where some property added too them & distinct from the persons. Because they are opposing relations one person in God is not another person in God but both are still united in being God.

    So it is false to claim in God the principle of distinction is identical to the principle of unity just because the divine persons share the same essence without distinction & in the essence are towards one another opposing relations thus really distinct from one to another as divine persons in God.

    So far as I can tell this "argument" is mere sophistical word play not logic based. It's like the classic Puppies are your brothers "argument" because they are your dog's offspring and your dog is a sire & is your dog therefore your sire and that makes the puppies your siblings.

    I can't find the contradiction and why the maximum "whatever is not the divine essence is a creature" is relevant or how the divine persons are somehow made creatures is still very obscure to me.

    >I may as well be speaking to you in a foreign language, which would mean that any ongoing dialogue between us on this subject will be a complete waste of time.

    I think the problem is you still haven't mastered the Trinity language or Theology language but you are free to disagree but if you are wise you should consider it.

    >Take care.

    Peace be with you.

    PS: Vincent is if my memory serves a professionally trained philosopher so he might be a better service to you then moi.

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  186. Hi dguller,

    You write: " In God, there is no real distinction between the knower and the known, because they are one and the same... But since in God, intellect is will, there are not two sets of really distinct activities in God, i.e. knowing and willing, but rather knowing is willing. Therefore, there cannot be a real distinction between God’s knowing and God’s loving, because then there would be a real distinction between God’s intellect and God’s will, which is impossible by virtue of divine simplicity."

    I'm sorry, but Aquinas contradicts you on this point. Nowhere does he say that in God, knowing is willing; rather the reverse. in S.T. I.19.1, he writes, "I answer that, There is will in God, as there is intellect: since will follows upon intellect." Also in S.T. I.19.5, Aquinas writes that "since the will follows from the intellect, there is cause of the will in the person who wills, in the same way as there is a cause of the understanding, in the person that understands." That's about as definitive as it gets. Also in S.T. I.19.4, Aquinas writes that "determined effects proceed from His own infinite perfection according to the determination of His will and intellect," and "the form as it is in the intellect only is not determined to exist or not to exist in the effect, except by the will." I hope that clears up matters.

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  187. Vincent:

    What follows is that "any differences between the Father and the Divine essence OR between the Son and the Divine essence are in the mind, but they are both one and the same thing."

    I agree.

    I say "in the mind" rather than "in our minds" because these differences exist in God's Mind too. They are not just differences in our ways of thinking about God: that's modalism.

    I disagree. When Aquinas talks about a notional distinction between A and B, he means that the distinction between A and B only exists in our minds. That’s because the starting point is that our mind perceives a distinction between A and B, and the further question is whether this distinction only exists in our mind, or also exists outside our mind in reality. So, a distinction in God’s mind would be a real distinction, and not a notional distinction, because a notional distinction is relative to a human mind, and not a divine mind. That why is he says that the divine essence and the divine relations “differ in our way of thinking” (ST 1.39.1). If that’s modalism, then that’s modalism.

    What you're assuming is that R (the Divine essence) is inherently monistic. What I'm saying is that God is inherently tripolar - that opposition is part and parcel of the very nature of God - but that the three poles can be understood as referring to one and the same activity (God's knowing-and-loving Himself).

    First, why is this tripolar and not quandripolar? You seem to have four poles: God as knower, God as known, God as lover, and God as loved.

    Second, you seem to be claiming that the poles are “parts” of the divine essence, even if these “parts” lack any potency whatsoever, which would preserve divine simplicity. Now, these really distinct poles must have something in common and must have something else not in common. If what they have in common is being a pole of the divine essence, then what they do not have in common cannot be being a pole of the divine essence. That means that, within God, there is (1) being a pole of the divine essence, and (2) that which differentiates the distinct poles of the divine essence, and that (1) is really distinct from (2).

    Let’s focus upon (1) for a moment. It is meaningful to ask whether being a pole of the divine essence is either totally identical to being the divine essence, or partially identical to being the divine essence. If the former is true, then it follows (2) cannot be identical to being the divine essence or being a pole of the divine essence, and thus (2) must be a creature, which is absurd. If the latter is true, then being a pole of the divine essence is partly identical to being the divine essence and partly different from being the divine essence. If you focus upon the part of being a pole of the divine essence is different from being the divine essence, it follows that that part of being a pole of the divine essence is a creature, which means that being a pole of the divine essence is partly created, which is absurd. So, whether you claim that being a pole of the divine essence is totally identical to or partly identical to being the divine essence, you have contradictions and absurdities.

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  188. As I've said, the Father and the Son are indeed different "modes of existence" (to quote The Catholic Encyclopedia) of R (the Divine essence). But they're not like God's justice and God's mercy. Those are complementary aspects of God but not in any way oppositional, whereas knower vs. known and lover vs. beloved are inherently oppositional relations.

    First, God’s justice and God’s mercy are oppositional. God’s justice punishes creatures and God’s mercy forgives creatures. Punishment is oppositional to forgiveness in the sense that an act of justice cannot simultaneously be an act of forgiveness, because forgiveness means absolving a creature of the punishment that justice demands, and an act of justice means the absence of forgiveness. So, if the presence of opposition in God is sufficient to warrant the predication of real distinction of the opposites, then God’s justice is really distinct from God’s mercy, which would violate divine simplicity. That is why G-L introduces the virtual distinction, and says that God’s mercy and God’s justice are virtually distinct. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea what a virtual distinction is supposed to be, and how it is distinct from notional and real distinction.

    Second, even if the Father and the Son are oppositional in our minds, it does not follow that they are also oppositional in God. After all, even Aquinas admits that just because we have certain ideas in our minds about God, it does not follow that all of those ideas correspond to God in reality. And so, just as our minds negate the presence of composition in God, even though our minds cannot help but think in terms of composition, because a process of solid reasoning has concluded that there cannot be composition in God, so can our minds negate the presence of oppositions within God without logical contradiction.

    What Aquinas is asserting here is that there is no real difference between God's intellect and His essence. He does not say, however, that the two terms have the same sense, or that they are notionally equivalent. Nor does he claim that there's no opposition between God's intellect and His idea of himself.

    No. What he is saying is that there is no real distinction between God’s intellect and his essence and that there is no real distinction between God as knower and God as known. That is why he says that “the intelligible species itself is the divine intellect itself”. If the knower is the divine intellect, and the known is the intelligible species, then the knower is the known.

    The answer is that the difference in sense between God as knower/lover, God as known and God as beloved don't exist "only in our mind"; they exist in God's Mind too.

    That just begs the question.

    Also the senses of God as 'Father' and God as 'Son' are not contradictory but oppositional, which is what makes them really distinct.

    Even better. If oppositional relations are not contradictory, then there is no logical reason why there cannot be a notional distinction between the opposed relations themselves. In other words, there is no logical contradiction in affirming that the Father is the Son, which means that this is just another bizarre consequence of divine simplicity, much like it is bizarre that God’s power is his act.

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  189. But from the fact that there is no opposition between A [God] and B [the Father], or between A [God] and C [the Son], it does not follow that there is no opposition between B [the Father] and C [the Son]. That's a non sequitur.

    That is not the argument. If A is totally identical to C and B is totally identical to C, then A is totally identical to B. The only way to avoid this conclusion is to affirm that A is totally identical to C and B is partially identical to C. And I am talking about the references and not the senses. The senses can be as different as can be, but the issue is the underlying identity relations. The only way to avoid the conclusion that the Father is totally identical to the Son is to affirm that the Father is totally identical to the divine essence and the Son is partially identical to the divine essence (or vice versa). Or you could argue that the Father is partially identical to the divine essence and the Son is partially identical to the divine essence, but each corresponds to different “parts” of the divine essence.

    And the problem is that once you admit partial identity into the question, then you get the unwanted conclusion that the part of the Father (or the Son) that is identical to the divine essence must be really distinct from the part of the Father (or the Son) that is not identical to the divine essence, and the latter part must be a creature, because anything that is not the divine essence is a creature. So, to avoid this conclusion, you must affirm the total identity between the Father, the Son and the divine essence, which leads to the unwanted conclusion that the Father is the Son.

    And if you reply that the oppositional relations themselves prevent each unwanted conclusion, then you must know that that reply will not work, because you have admitted that predicating oppositional relations of one and the same subject is not a logical contradiction.

    I'm sorry, but Aquinas contradicts you on this point. Nowhere does he say that in God, knowing is willing; rather the reverse. in S.T. I.19.1, he writes, "I answer that, There is will in God, as there is intellect: since will follows upon intellect."

    I would say that is just a manner of speaking. The reality is that “as His intellect is His own existence, so is His will” (ST 1.19.1). The divine attributes are only notionally distinct from one another, as even Ben will tell you, which means that even though they have different senses in our minds, they all correspond to one and the same reference. God’s intellect is God’s will. They are one and the same.

    Also in S.T. I.19.5, Aquinas writes that "since the will follows from the intellect, there is cause of the will in the person who wills, in the same way as there is a cause of the understanding, in the person that understands."

    Again, this is just a manner of speaking. When Aquinas says that “will follows from the intellect”, he is not saying that the divine intellect is really distinct from the divine will, as if the activity of the divine intellect causes the divine will to act in some way. His intellectual and volitional activity is one single act that is not divided into sub-components in which one sub-component follows from another.

    Also in S.T. I.19.4, Aquinas writes that "determined effects proceed from His own infinite perfection according to the determination of His will and intellect," and "the form as it is in the intellect only is not determined to exist or not to exist in the effect, except by the will." I hope that clears up matters.

    Again, his manner of speaking will necessarily be saturated by composition, but in God, there is simplicity, and the divine intellect is the divine will. Ask anyone around here.

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  190. Vincent:

    Here's Aquinas at CT 33:

    "Evidently God’s will cannot be anything other than His intellect. For, since a good that is apprehended by the intellect is the object of the will, it moves the will and is the will’s act and perfection. In God, however, there is no distinction between mover and moved, act and potency, perfection and perfectible, as is clear from the truths we have already gained. Also, the divine intellect and the divine essence are identical. Therefore the will of God is not distinct from the divine intellect and God’s essence.

    "Another consideration: among the various perfections of things, the chief are intellect and will. A sign of this is that they are found in the nobler beings. But the perfections of all things are one in God, and this is His essence, as we showed above. In God, therefore, intellect and will are identical with His essence."

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  191. Hi dguller,

    Just a quick response, as I'm going out soon. You write: "If A is totally identical to C and B is totally identical to C, then A is totally identical to B... And I am talking about the references and not the senses. The senses can be as different as can be, but the issue is the underlying identity relations."

    I would answer: "Identical whats?" If you're talking about identical beings, yes. But that's the only sense in which the Father is totally identical to the Divine essence, and the Son is totally identical to the Divine essence. All that follows is that the Father and the Son are totally identical in being.

    But if you're going to argue that they're totally identical persons, then the syllogism breaks down at once: The term "Divine essence" doesn't signify any person, but simply God's being.

    You quoted Aquinas' Compendium of Theology chapter 33: "Also, the divine intellect and the divine essence are identical. Therefore the will of God is not distinct from the divine intellect and God’s essence... In God, therefore, intellect and will are identical with His essence." But you didn't scroll down and read Chapter 51, where Aquinas explains himself: "In God, ... to be, to know, and to love are identical. Therefore God existing in His natural being and God existing in the divine intellect and God existing in the divine love are one thing. Yet each of them is subsistent." In other words, Aquinas is not arguing that in God, knowing and loving are the same as such; he is simply saying that they refer to the same thing, God. That is, both are identical with the Divine essence.

    I cited several passages in Aquinas where he says that will follows upon intellect. You shrug these off by saying, "this is just a manner of speaking." That's lame, and it doesn't convince anyone.

    You write that Aquinas "says that the divine essence and the divine relations 'differ in our way of thinking' (ST 1.39.1)," and you add: "If that’s modalism, then that’s modalism."

    OK, how's this? "The Father is denominated only from paternity; and the Son only from filiation. Therefore, if no real paternity or filiation existed in God, it would follow that God is not really Father or Son, but only in our manner of understanding; and this is the Sabellian heresy." (ST 1, q. 28, a. 1, sed contra).

    Convinced?

    You write: "Second, you seem to be claiming that the poles are “parts” of the divine essence, even if these “parts” lack any potency whatsoever, which would preserve divine simplicity. Now, these really distinct poles must have something in common and must have something else not in common. If what they have in common is being a pole of the divine essence, then what they do not have in common cannot be being a pole of the divine essence."

    You're doing it again - treating God as a noun when according to Aquinas He's a verb. The poles are not things, and they are not parts. And they don't have anything in common. What could fatherhood possibly have in common with sonship?

    You write: "God’s justice and God’s mercy are oppositional," because the two are mutually exclusive. But mutual exclusion is not the same thing as mutual opposition, where the very idea of one pole implies the existence of the other, and where the two can never be separated from one another. (Think of north and south, left and right.) Justice and mercy are not like that. The idea of justice does not imply the idea of mercy, and I suppose it's conceivable that God could be always just and never merciful - or vice versa. Cheers.

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  192. Vincent:

    I would answer: "Identical whats?" If you're talking about identical beings, yes. But that's the only sense in which the Father is totally identical to the Divine essence, and the Son is totally identical to the Divine essence. All that follows is that the Father and the Son are totally identical in being.

    But if there is a sense in which the Father is not totally identical to the Son in every way, then it follows that the Father is only partially identical to the Son. In other words, to say that X is totally identical to Y as A, but X is not totally identical to Y as B, then it follows that X is not totally identical to Y per se. For me, to say that X is totally identical to Y per se just means that “X” and “Y” are different terms for one and the same thing. But if X and Y differ in some way, then they are not just different terms for the same thing, but rather each refer to something different.

    So, the Father is partially identical to the Son, which means that they have something in common, and they have something not in common, i.e. they have a principle of unity and a principle of distinction, which must be really distinct from one another. What would you say the Father shares in common with the Son, and what would you say the Father does not share in common with the Son?

    In other words, Aquinas is not arguing that in God, knowing and loving are the same as such; he is simply saying that they refer to the same thing, God. That is, both are identical with the Divine essence.

    I’m afraid that we are just going to have to disagree on this. From everything I’ve read, Aquinas says that “the divine intellect” and “the divine will” are just two different terms for one and the same reference, albeit with different senses. Any difference between them only exists in our minds, and does not correspond to anything outside our minds in reality. In other words, they are notionally distinct, and not really distinct. That is what he means when he says that X and Y are “one and the same thing”.

    I cited several passages in Aquinas where he says that will follows upon intellect. You shrug these off by saying, "this is just a manner of speaking." That's lame, and it doesn't convince anyone.

    If it’s lame, then it must have one hell of a set of crutches. It is a manner of speaking. God’s intellect and God’s will are one and the same unified act. The will’s activity does not come after the intellect’s activity, which is what would have to be the case if the will followed the intellect. There is no before and after in a single unified act.

    He clearly says so in the passage of CT that I cited. Again:

    “For, since a good that is apprehended by the intellect is the object of the will, it moves the will and is the will’s act and perfection. In God, however, there is no distinction between mover and moved, act and potency, perfection and perfectible, as is clear from the truths we have already gained. Also, the divine intellect and the divine essence are identical. Therefore the will of God is not distinct from the divine intellect and God’s essence.”

    Aquinas says that the good that is apprehended by the intellect “moves the will”. But he then says that in God, “there is no distinction between mover and moved”. So, if in God, (a) the mover is the moved, (b) the intellect moves the will, and (c) the will is moved by the intellect, then it follows that the intellect is the will. If you are correct that the moved (i.e. the will) must follow the mover (i.e. the intellect), then Aquinas is wrong to say that the mover is the moved. In fact, they are really distinct from one another.

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  193. Convinced?

    Am I convinced that Aquinas really, really wanted to avoid modalism? Yes. Am I convinced that he did, in fact, avoid it? No.

    You're doing it again - treating God as a noun when according to Aquinas He's a verb.

    Actually, what Aquinas argues is that the noun is the verb.

    The poles are not things, and they are not parts. And they don't have anything in common. What could fatherhood possibly have in common with sonship?

    Here’s one thing they have in common: being a pole of the divine essence.

    But mutual exclusion is not the same thing as mutual opposition, where the very idea of one pole implies the existence of the other, and where the two can never be separated from one another. (Think of north and south, left and right.) Justice and mercy are not like that. The idea of justice does not imply the idea of mercy, and I suppose it's conceivable that God could be always just and never merciful - or vice versa. Cheers.

    I see. That’s quite helpful. So, an oppositional relation is one in which the presence of X necessarily implies the presence of Y.

    But I would still argue that the only reason why the Father cannot be identical to the Son is if this would lead to a logical contradiction. However, since you have already admitted that there is no such logical contradiction – a paradox, sure, but no logical contradiction – then it is possible for the Father to be the Son. This is bizarre and difficult to understand, but so what? It’s supposed to be bizarre and difficult to understand, because our minds are conditioned to understand composite entities, and we struggle mightily for a glimmer of understanding of a simple entity, such as God.

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  194. Hi dguller,

    You write:

    But I would still argue that the only reason why the Father cannot be identical to the Son is if this would lead to a logical contradiction. However, since you have already admitted that there is no such logical contradiction – a paradox, sure, but no logical contradiction – then it is possible for the Father to be the Son.

    That might be what you argue, but what I have said is that the the doctrine of the Trinity (which says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are really distinct even though all are identical with the divine essence) is not a contradiction, even if it sounds odd to us. The reason why it's impossible for the Father to be the Son is that thinking is by definition a two-term activity: there is always a thinker and a thought. Although they're distinct, one implies the existence of the other. In any case, it would be a contradiction to identify a thinker with his thought.

    You write that fatherhood and sonship have one thing in common: being a pole of the Divine essence. But as I've said, the term "pole" doesn't signify a thing; it's just the terminus of a relationship.

    You suggest that while wanting to avoid modalism, Aquinas was unsuccessful. To be honest, I'm not here to defend Aquinas (I'm more of a Scotist than a Thomist), and if it turns out that he was inconsistent in his writings, then so be it. My main aim is to show that the doctrine of the Trinity is rationally defensible and not contradictory. I think Aquinas articulated it best, but I won't say he did so perfectly.

    You write: So, if in God, (a) the mover is the moved, (b) the intellect moves the will, and (c) the will is moved by the intellect, then it follows that the intellect is the will. If you are correct that the moved (i.e. the will) must follow the mover (i.e. the intellect), then Aquinas is wrong to say that the mover is the moved.

    Here I would agree that Aquinas could have phrased his statements more carefully. I think he should have said that in God, the mover and the moved are one and the same Being, rather than saying that the mover is the moved. I agree that the latter statement is confusing.

    You write: There is no before and after in a single unified act. I agree that there is no temporal before and after, but there can certainly be a logical (and ontological) priority in a single unified act. For instance, if the act involves an agent and a patient or recipient, then even if the act is instantaneous, the agent is logically and ontologically prior to the patient. And surely a thinker is prior to his thought, even if he thinks it from all eternity. Hence we can that the thought (logically and ontologically) follows the thinker, even if it does not do so in a temporal sense.

    Finally, you write: if there is a sense in which the Father is not totally identical to the Son in every way, then it follows that the Father is only partially identical to the Son... which means that they have something in common, and they have something not in common. I would answer: the total vs. partial contrast only applies to identity of being; it doesn't apply elsewhere. And as far as being is concerned, the Father is totally identical with the Son, and they have everything in common. But if you're talking about something other than being, then the correct contrast to use is not total vs. partial, but absolute vs. relative. And here we can say: the Father and the Son are not identical, relatively speaking; they are distinct. And because the relation in question is an oppositional one, transitivity of identity doesn't apply.

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  195. Vincent:

    That might be what you argue, but what I have said is that the the doctrine of the Trinity (which says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are really distinct even though all are identical with the divine essence) is not a contradiction, even if it sounds odd to us.

    Well, I’ve been arguing that there is a contradiction. The oddness of the doctrine is irrelevant, because plenty of true claims are odd.

    The reason why it's impossible for the Father to be the Son is that thinking is by definition a two-term activity: there is always a thinker and a thought. Although they're distinct, one implies the existence of the other. In any case, it would be a contradiction to identify a thinker with his thought.

    First, you are just being ad hoc with your definitions. Compare: a thinker must be distinct from his thought, but the power to do X can be identical with actually doing X. Also, one could make the same argument for a noun and a verb. The noun is a thing and a verb is what the thing does. If there is a thing, then there is the activity of the thing, and if there is any kind of activity, then there must be a thing performing that activity. And yet, you have no problem talking about a verb without a noun, even though they are also mutually implicative. So, I think that you are being somewhat ad hoc and selective here.

    Second, if the Father was notionally distinct from the Son, then the existence of the Father would also imply the existence of the Son, because they are one and the same, and if one exists, then the other must exist, as well.

    Third, you have already conceded that there is no logical contradiction in saying that the Father is the Son.

    You write that fatherhood and sonship have one thing in common: being a pole of the Divine essence. But as I've said, the term "pole" doesn't signify a thing; it's just the terminus of a relationship.

    It doesn’t have to signify “a thing”. It only has to signify something, and this “something” exists in a relation with something else, and the former and the latter both share being a pole of the divine essence in common.

    You suggest that while wanting to avoid modalism, Aquinas was unsuccessful. To be honest, I'm not here to defend Aquinas (I'm more of a Scotist than a Thomist), and if it turns out that he was inconsistent in his writings, then so be it.

    Fair enough.

    My main aim is to show that the doctrine of the Trinity is rationally defensible and not contradictory. I think Aquinas articulated it best, but I won't say he did so perfectly.

    And my aim is not to show that the Trinity is contradictory in all its forms, but only that the Thomist account of the Trinity is inconsistent.

    Here I would agree that Aquinas could have phrased his statements more carefully. I think he should have said that in God, the mover and the moved are one and the same Being, rather than saying that the mover is the moved. I agree that the latter statement is confusing.

    Fair enough, but I still think that there are problems, which I’ll discuss below.

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  196. I would answer: the total vs. partial contrast only applies to identity of being; it doesn't apply elsewhere. And as far as being is concerned, the Father is totally identical with the Son, and they have everything in common. But if you're talking about something other than being, then the correct contrast to use is not total vs. partial, but absolute vs. relative.

    But here you must be careful to avoid equivocation. When you talk about “something other than being”, what do you mean? How can “something” be “other than being”? You must be talking about different kinds of being, i.e. being1 and being2, such that being1 is other than being2. The only alternative is that when you say “something other than being”, you are actually talking about nothing, i.e. absolute non-being. Since absolute non-being cannot be a principle of distinction, because a principle of distinction must be something, I doubt that this is what you mean, and so you must be distinguishing being1 from being2.

    If that is what you mean, then what you are saying is that the Father is the same as the Son in terms of being1 and that the Father is not the same as the Son in terms of being2, which seems to be is just another way of saying that the principle of unity of the Father and the Son is being1 and the principle of distinction of the Father and the Son is being2. But then the same problem emerges, because the principle of unity cannot be identical to the principle of distinction, which means that being1 cannot be identical to being2. Presumably being1 is the divine essence, which means that being2 must be a creature, because anything that is not unparticipated being is participated being, i.e. created being.

    So, when you talk about “something other than being”, where the “being” in question is Being itself, then you either mean absolute non-being or created being.

    Perhaps a third option is that there are different kinds of divine being, such that the being of the divine essence is being1, the being of the Father is being2, and the being of the Son is being3. But again, if being1 is unparticipated being, then anything other than being1 is created being, and thus the Father and the Son would either be totally or partially created, which is absurd. Or, you might mean that there is a higher kind of Being than Being itself, the being of the Father, and the being of the Son? But that would mean that God is not the ultimate explanatory principle of reality, and that something more fundamental than God served that role.

    I agree that there is no temporal before and after, but there can certainly be a logical (and ontological) priority in a single unified act. For instance, if the act involves an agent and a patient or recipient, then even if the act is instantaneous, the agent is logically and ontologically prior to the patient. And surely a thinker is prior to his thought, even if he thinks it from all eternity. Hence we can that the thought (logically and ontologically) follows the thinker, even if it does not do so in a temporal sense.

    How can an eternal thinker be prior to his thought in any sense? To say that X is prior to Y just means that it is possible for X to exist while Y does not exist. But if X is eternally Y, then how can you say that X is prior to Y? That’s something I’ve always struggled with, because if X is eternally Y, then it is impossible for X not to be Y. Just because we can imagine X not being Y in our minds does not mean that this possibility actually exists outside the mind. It just means that we are confused.

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  197. Vincent:

    Sorry, I just wanted to expand upon a point I made above. I wrote: “Or, you might mean that there is a higher kind of Being than Being itself, the being of the Father, and the being of the Son? But that would mean that God is not the ultimate explanatory principle of reality, and that something more fundamental than God served that role.”

    Here’s what I meant. Say that the divine essence is being1, the Father is being2, and the Son is being3. Furthermore, say that in reality, there is Being itself and there is that which participates in Being itself. If anything exists, then it must be either of the two. As far as I can tell, there are only the following possibilities here:

    (1) Being1, being2, and being3 are all equally identical to Being itself. In other words, they are all notionally distinct. But the problem here is that this would lead to the contradiction that the principle of unity between them (i.e. being1) is identical to the principle of distinction between them (i.e. being2 and being3).

    (2) Being1 is Being itself, and being2 and being3 are both participants in Being itself. In other words, being1 is really distinct from being2 and being3. But the problem here is that this would make being2 and being3 creatures of being1.

    (3) Neither being1, being2 nor being3 is Being itself. Instead, being1, being2, and being3 all participate in Being itself, such that there is a higher explanatory principle than the divine essence, and the divine persons, that accounts for reality. In other words, there is something higher than the Trinity that grounds reality itself. But the problem here is that this would deny the Trinitarian God the role of being the ultimate explanatory principle of reality, and would make him dependent upon something higher and more fundamental that exists beyond him, but that he must participate in. And that would make the Trinitarian God a creature.

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  198. Tap:

    Given that this principle actualizes the contents of its intellect by virtue of the will. I assume you'll agree that not every content of this principles intellect is actuallized, For example not every possible world or every possible creature in the divine intellect was created, so even though this "extra content" is in the divine "mind."

    Yes.

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