Monday, January 19, 2026

Socratic politics: Lessons from the Gorgias

Almost forty years ago, the liberal pragmatist philosopher Richard Rorty published an essay titled “The Priority of Democracy to Philosophy.”  I recall hating it immediately, from the title alone.  The sentiment was appalling coming from anyone, but especially from a philosopher.  Philosophy aims at the true and the good, democracy merely at what the majority happens to want.  That can sometimes be false and very bad indeed – and in one notorious case it was the execution of Socrates, the model for all philosophers.  How could philosophy not have the priority?

Prioritizing democracy

But what exactly is it for either to have “priority” to the other?  What Rorty had in mind is this.  The liberal democratic tradition has pushed religion ever further out of the public square.  Theology is now widely regarded as a purely private interest whose claims have no bearing on the political order.  But for centuries, liberalism took philosophy to retain political relevance.  In particular, liberal theorists took their favored polity to require philosophical foundations – in Locke’s natural rights theory, Mill’s utilitarianism, or whatever.

But none of the various alternative liberal political philosophies has ever found universal acceptance.  The pluralism of modern liberal democratic societies is so great that agreement on philosophical premises is no more likely than on theological premises.  Rorty’s conclusion is that the quest for philosophical foundations should be abandoned, and that philosophy has no more business in the public square than religion.  You might say that, just as liberalism has created a separation of Church and state, Rorty calls for a separation of philosophy and state. 

What, then, can ground liberal democracy?  If grounding it entails rooting liberal democratic principles in truths about human nature that transcend all particular cultures and historical eras, Rorty’s answer is that nothing can ground it.  But neither, in his view, does it need such a foundation.  A contemporary liberal democratic society can ground itself in whatever principles it happens to take as basic and non-negotiable, even if these are very different from those that would have been embraced in other eras or by other societies.

If a critic asks why anyone should accept such principles, Rorty’s answer is that nothing more need be said than that this is what “we” citizens of a modern liberal democracy take to be basic, and that’s that.  Any alternative is, for “us,” simply beyond the pale.  He is well aware that there are those within modern liberal democratic society who do not agree, and are committed to religious, philosophical, or other views that are incompatible with its basic principles.  But the majority, who accept those principles, regard such people as “crazy” and need pay them no mind.  Says Rorty:

They are not crazy because they have mistaken the ahistorical nature of human beings.  They are crazy because the limits of sanity are set by what we can take seriously.  This, in turn, is determined by our upbringing, our historical situation. (p. 288)

Rorty is also well aware that the resulting position is “relatively local and ethnocentric – the tradition of a particular community, the consensus of a particular culture” (p. 281).  It is, in short, frankly relativist.  Except that Rorty urges us to be “light-minded” about traditional philosophical topics such as truth and relativism (p. 293), the debate over which is as ancient as Plato and his Sophist rivals.  Partisans of liberal democracy needn’t engage with the critic who would raise against them the traditional objections to views like Rorty’s.  They may “simply drop [such] questions and the vocabulary in which those questions are posed” and “refuse to argue” with those who press them (p. 290).

Hence, where such traditional philosophical views come into conflict with the assumptions of liberal democracy, “democracy takes precedence over philosophy” (p. 291).  For defenders of liberal democracy, in Rorty’s view, philosophy can only be about “putting politics first and tailoring a philosophy to suit” (p. 282). 

Rorty’s position is similar to John Rawls’s view that liberalism does not need any metaphysical foundation, but can be grounded instead in an “overlapping consensus” between the “reasonable comprehensive doctrines” that exist within a pluralistic society – where, on closer inspection, it turns out that a doctrine counts as “reasonable” in Rawls’s view only if it accepts the liberal’s conception of political order.  Indeed, Rorty sees himself as essentially giving a more explicitly pragmatist formulation of Rawls’s basic idea.  And as with Rawls, the result is a shamelessly question-begging position.  For it amounts to the thesis that liberalism can be given an adequate foundation as long as you accept the basic principles of liberalism.

The reason Rorty and Rawls think they can get away with this is evidently that they suppose that there are enough people in modern liberal democratic societies – or enough people with power and influence, anyway – who are willing to let them get away with it.  That assumption is much less plausible today than it was at the time Rorty wrote his essay.  But even if it were true, it amounts to little more than an urbane riff on the fallacy of appealing to the mob.

Prioritizing philosophy

In Plato’s Gorgias, Socrates gives powerful expression to the priority of philosophy to democracy, and of its priority to politics more generally.  Addressing Callicles – who, like Rorty, puts politics above philosophy – Socrates says:

I am in love… with philosophy, you with the democracy of Athens… For all your cleverness you are unable to contradict any assertion made by the object of your love, but shift your ground this way and that… If the Athenian democracy denies any statement made by you in a speech, you change your policy in deference to its wishes… My love, philosophy… is perpetually saying… what you are now hearing from me, and she is a great deal less capricious… Philosophy never changes… Better that the mass of mankind should disagree with me and contradict me than that I, a single individual, should be out of harmony with myself and contradict myself. (Hamilton translation, pp. 75-76)

Notoriously, Callicles takes the view that might makes right, and that Socrates’ unwavering adherence to reason and moral principle evinces weakness.  He judges the philosopher to be impractical and unworldly, someone comparable to “those who stammer and play childish games” and who “deserve[s] a whipping for his unmanly behavior” (pp. 80-81).  In Callicles’ view, the point of life is power, the way to attain power is through politics, and the key to success in politics is skill at keeping the mob on one’s side through rhetoric.  Hence Socrates’ charge that Callicles is in love with the democracy of Athens, insofar as he accommodates himself to whatever it wishes.

Callicles’ frank celebration of the strongman may make him seem very different from Rorty, who deploys the soft rhetoric of tolerance and pluralism.  But what they have in common is more significant than their differences.  Both scorn Socratic philosophy’s appeal to objective rational and moral standards.  Both would replace them with the prevailing democratic consensus (even if what Rorty had in mind by this is something less ephemeral than what Socrates accuses Callicles of catering to).  Both essentially ground the political order in raw power – in Callicles’ case, the power of the demagogue, in Rorty’s the power of conventional opinion.

For the Socrates of the Gorgias, though, it is not just that philosophy is prior to politics insofar as the truth it pursues is of greater importance than majority opinion.  He also holds that philosophy should order politics, inverting Rorty’s position that politics should shape philosophy.  Of political discourse, Socrates says:

There are two kinds of political oratory, one of them is pandering and base clap-trap; only the other is good, which aims at the edification of the souls of the citizens and is always striving to say what is best, whether it be welcome or unwelcome to the ears of the audience. (p. 110)

And the aim of Socratic orators is not merely to increase the listener’s theoretical knowledge but “to improve their fellow-citizens as much as possible” (Ibid.).  That is to say, they are engaged in a moral exercise no less than an intellectual one.  Socrates continues:

The means which produce order and proportion in the soul are called ‘regulation’ and ‘law’; these are what make men law-abiding and orderly, and so we have righteousness and moderation… Then the good orator, being also a man of expert knowledge, will have these ends in view in any speech or action by which he seeks to influence the souls of men… His attention will be wholly concentrated on bringing righteousness and moderation and every other virtue to birth in the souls of his fellow-citizens, and on removing their opposites, unrighteousness and excess and vice. (pp. 112-13)

Nor is this merely a matter of the philosopher acting in a private capacity to exhort his fellow citizens to what is true and good.  Rather, the state and its rulers must work for this end.  One’s “sole concern as a public man will be to make us who are citizens as good as possible… that is the duty of the statesman… the service which a good man owes to his country” (pp. 128-29).  And only a good man can do this job:

Ought we not then to set about our treatment of the state and its citizens on this principle, with the idea of making the citizens themselves as good as possible?  Without such a principle… one can do no good; no other service to the state is of the slightest avail if those who are to acquire riches or authority over people or any other kind of power are not men of good will. (pp. 126-27)

For Socrates, this is not an optional utopian ideal, but the very essence of statesmanship, to be practiced whatever the cost.  In response to Callicles’ advice that he pander to democratic opinion lest his opposition to it put him in danger, Socrates says:

I believe that I am one of the few Athenians – perhaps indeed there is no other – who studies the genuine art of statesmanship, and that I am the only man now living who puts it into practice… What I say on any occasion is not designed to please, and… I aim not at what is most agreeable but at what is best, and will not employ the subtle arts which you advise. (p. 140)

Similarly, Socrates says, the good man must not pander to a despot any more than to the mob, in the interests of securing power or keeping himself safe.  Even if he should succeed, the victory will be Pyrrhic, for “in that case there will befall him the greatest of all evils, a soul vitiated and corrupted by the imitation of his master and the power thus acquired” (p. 122).  We must “take care… that we do not find… that we have purchased political power at the cost of all that we hold most dear” (p. 125).

We see in the Gorgias, then, the seeds of a conception of politics that would be worked out in greater detail and more systematically in Plato’s Republic and Aristotle’s Politics, and later still in the work of natural law thinkers like St. Thomas Aquinas.  Of course, these thinkers differ in important ways.  But they agree that a state must facilitate the moral perfection of its citizens, that the guidance of sound philosophy is essential to this, and that rulers must be virtuous themselves if they are plausibly going to further this end.

Modern liberalism would come to define itself in opposition to this classical “perfectionist” conception of politics.  It takes the aim of politics to be, not the facilitation of citizens’ pursuit of the good, but the protection of their pursuit of whatever ends they happen to have – even ends that are gravely immoral by classical standards.  It eschews the philosophical and theological sources of wisdom the classical tradition says ought to inform statecraft.  And it tends to prize mere technocratic competence rather than the sorts of virtues a Plato, Aristotle, or Aquinas would attribute to the ideal statesman.

Whither postliberalism?

One of the insights of postliberalism is that the liberal tradition always had within it the seeds of the decadent liberalism of Rawls and Rorty – and that this desiccated late stage liberalism was bound in turn to give way to the more radical “woke” ideologies that have in recent years begun to destabilize liberal democracy from within. 

What does postliberalism propose to put in its place?  The main postliberal writers are clearly committed to a revival of some version or other of the classical, Socratic conception of politics.  Their main inspirations tend to include thinkers like Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, and other notables from this tradition.  We might call this approach “Socratic postliberalism.” 

However, there is another tendency which is sometimes characterized as “postliberal,” albeit by the critics of postliberalism rather than by postliberals themselves.  Socratic postliberalism arose largely within academia, and has been presented in formal essays and books featuring carefully developed lines of argument and analysis.  By contrast, the other tendency I refer to derives more from online culture and is typically expressed in podcasts, tweets, and the occasional amateurish treatise.  As to its content, it tends toward a tribalism that manifests itself in a fixation on matters of race and a crude jingoism.  It is enthusiastic about tearing down existing institutions, and impatient with any suggestion that it would be better to reform them, or at least to think carefully about what might replace them before tearing them down.  It is less interested in persuasion than in rallying allies and offending and flummoxing opponents through outrageous rhetoric – a right-wing variation on “épater la bourgeoisie.”  And it sees only weakness in calls for moderation or intellectual consistency, preferring leaders who are aggressive to the point of obnoxiousness, and actions that are bold to the point of recklessness.

This tendency may pay occasional lip service to the Socratic tradition, but its spirit is definitely that of Callicles.  Its ideal is not the philosopher who pursues the true and the good even if it costs him his life (as it did Socrates), but the strongman who can channel the will of the tribe and lead it in crushing its enemies.  If it is “postliberal” insofar as it directs its animus at some of the same tendencies opposed by Socratic postliberalism, it is nevertheless a very different animal.  We might label it “Calliclean postliberalism.”

Socratic and Calliclean postliberalism alike are enemies of the liberalism of Rawls and Rorty.  But as what I’ve said so far indicates, Calliclean postliberalism is in reality closer to Rorty’s position than might at first appear. For they are agreed in prioritizing politics over philosophy, power over principle, the will of the mob over unwavering fidelity to the true and the good.  True, Calliclean postliberalism is shrilly populist whereas Rortian liberalism is urbanely democratic.  But that just means that they appeal to different mobs.

Because of what they have in common, Calliclean postliberalism is no more coherent than Rortian liberalism, and no less subject to Socrates’ refutation of Callicles in the Gorgias.  It channels some understandable frustrations, but also some ugly and irrational hatreds and resentments.  And while it can protest our disordered political and cultural situation, it cannot provide a remedy.  Calliclean politics can at most win a battle or two, until it is itself crushed by whatever gang of thugs the rival mob votes into office.  Socratic politics built our civilization, and only a Socratic postliberalism can renew it.

110 comments:

  1. "I recall hating it immediately, from the title alone."

    Don't worry, Ed, you are definitely not alone in this.

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  2. I have often wondered what separates Rorty from Nietzsche save that the former liked the idea of a certain type of progress secular democratic aesthetic (certainly Rorty tries to ground more things meaning and communication related in group-thinking, but when it's all said and done why prefer conformity to divergence as long as the latter is still intelligible?). In both cases their speech does not and cannot represent reality, but must be seen as an attempt to shape it.

    As a general rule one should gravely distrust those of a sceptical bent who comment greatly on politics.

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    1. "In both cases their speech does not and cannot represent reality, but must be seen as an attempt to shape it." -- This is clearly a false dilemma, is it not? (And thus a failed attempt to (truly) represent reality, even if also a sincere attempt to (polemically) shape it.)

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    2. Not at all--Rorty has been quite open about this, and its application to his own linguistic behaviourist thought, hence the whole Ironist stance. On a naive representational view such is indeed a false dichotomy since we often want to accurately represent the world in order to shape it a different way (the best to convince people to help dig for gold in them there hills is to show them there is actually gold in them there hills). But if one rejects truth as correspondence or representation, truth as a mirror to world, then this option goes out of the window; if such theories are "true" then the idea of truth as such as at best unreachable and more likely something like the Logical Positivists widersinn.

      (If anything he is too keen to read others i.e. Heidegger or Derrida, in the same light)

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    3. Hmm... I don't follow that at all. Whether you're 'naive' or 'ironist' about it, it's still a false dilemma. You're merely asserting the contrary, so far as I can see.

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  3. Earlier this year, Virginia senator Tim Kaine called the idea that human rights come from God "extremely troubling"—the sort of thing a "totalitarian regime" would say.

    Now, setting aside the fact that Kaine is obviously not very familiar with, say, the Declaration of Independence, this weird (if not atypical) episode in American politics demonstrates pretty clearly the absurdity of trying to make democracy its own foundation, and probably tells us a lot about the collapse of faith in republican government in the United States in the 21st century. It's one thing to make democratic government an end in itself in an ivory tower sort of way like Rorty does; it's another thing to actually tell people that their human rights and human dignity are basically state-invented fictions that we all pretend to believe in for the common good, and then expect them to continue on like nothing happened. Of course, it's not like irreligious liberals actually have a choice here. Their nihilistic philsophy leaves no room for any of the foundational assumptions that once undergirded liberal democracy, so the only way to save democracy is to resort to empty play-acting, like the Soviet bureaucrats in the 1980s who refused to believe that the system was crumbling around them.

    I'm not terribly optimistic about what comes after liberal democracy, and I'm not convinced that you can actually draw a clear line between "academic" postliberalism and the kind of nihilistic, ultra-nationalist trolling that claims to share the same goals (Rod Dreher, for example, seems to have his feet firmly planted in both camps). But liberalism definitely dug its own grave, and its biggest supporters are also its unwitting pallbearers.

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  4. The problem with postliberalism is that guys like Dr. Feser are terribly ignorant of modern history, modern political forms, and modern public policy, which is why he almost never discusses any of those topics outside limited spheres where abstract philosophical discourse works better (like evaluating modern wars under just war theory). The only real world examples we have of modern, developed states operating without liberal principles are totalitarian despotisms or corrupt, authoritarian tin-pot regimes. The further postliberal ideas get away from philosophical abstraction and the closer they get to nuts-and-bolts politics and policy, the weaker and more absurd they get. You can wax poetic about Socrates, but the praxis of this kind of politics would likely be a corrupt, authoritarian, economically declining police state looted by billionaire oligarchs.

    The rub is that Marx was right about base and superstructure. Modern individualism, secularism, atomization, and other things social conservatives complaint about are the byproduct of industrialization and capitalism. If you aren't a radical environmentalist or a socialist seeking to change these factors, but you dislike modern culture anyway, you need to make your peace with the fact that there are aspects of modern society which you will find problematic. The way you make your peace with modernity is by liberalism and pluralism, which allows you, your family, and your religious community to maintain conservative, religious values in a society that is, in its economic and technological DNA, athestic and atomizing. In exchange, you merely must respect the agency of others and may seek to persuade, not compel, them to share your views. Switching out the elites, and then hoping the elites reverse the cultural decay of society through violence and coercion, does not work and we have many examples of this.

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    1. So what you appear to be saying is that is that the modern liberal and post-liberal state probably lacks any form of moral legitimacy? I am inclined to agree—awful dance of power play and empty vanity. The question then becomes not what politician to vote in, but how to evade the politician who gets voted in’s absurd/immoral/arbitrary demands.

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    2. I agree with this. What Ed is saying, in the abstract, seems fine but if only tyrants ever try to enact these ideas, you might start to question the theory. The will to dominate people is strong in the Christian Right because of these totalitarian presumptions - every tyrant, in form, is what is desired and every one of them, are terrible - yet they keep wanting it. Our current situation is great example as the people supposedly orientated towards virtue overwhelmingly support a morally bankrupt man and administration. Between a foundation-less pluralism that communally struggles to ground itself on egalitarian principles and a foundational hierarchy consistently producing tyranny, I will choose the former. I don’t necessarily agree with Rorty’s arguments but I find it more honest and less amenable to the varying tyrannies the Right has consistently supported for centuries now. The last part of your post, I think, is exactly the case - Pluralism is the way, not some ‘grounding’ that, in practice, does the opposite of what it claims to do.

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    3. Oa Police,

      That doesn't strike me as a reasonable reading of 1st Anon's comment (and if 2nd Anon is 1st Anon, please explain to me what you mean). 1st Anon was pointing out that for as fine and high-sounding as Feser's ideas sound, any attempt to implement them in the real world would almost certainly result in some kind of horrific dictatorship (something that I would content is supported by history). How do you get from there to "modern states have no legitimacy"?

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    4. The point I was making is that a certain amount of cultural liberalism is simply baked into how modern societies are structured on a fundamental economic/technological level, as predicted by the Marxist framework. If you are a conservative and you dislike how culture has evolved in modernity, but you don't have any plans to change the mode of production, it makes more sense to make your peace with modernity and liberalism rather than fantasizing about a based dictatorship that revives "tradition" while preserving Amazon Prime same day delivery. Putting conservative elites in charge, and then having these elites impose their ideology from above in a heavy-handed, authoritarian manner while preserving a capitalist, modern economy, is like planting a seed in soil that rejects it. An individual may be a traditionalist Catholic, but you can't revive the culture of the Middle Ages at scale without returning to a Middle Ages mode of production. There might be a veneer of performative state-backed conservativism or religious devotion, but this would mask a society that is much worse off due to the loss of basic civil freedoms. Below this state-backed conservative veneer, society would remain highly individualistic because of how it is shaped by the mode of production. Look at modern Russia and Iran for examples of this. Unless you have a plan to overthrow industrial capitalism and replace it with anarchist farming communities (or some other crazy scheme), you need to make your peace with liberalism and pluralism.

      I think many conservatives implicitly think culture changes like this: there is a discourse of ideas among elites-->as the discourse proceeds, certain ideas become fashionable among elites-->the fashionable ideas then "trickle down" to mass society through elite-controlled media and education systems. While there is some truth to this, I think this is mostly the wrong way to look at it, and Marxist materialism is actually a more helpful framework (if simplified and limited in its own way).

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    5. Thank you. This was genuinely enlightening. And yes, that seems right. We often tend to ignore the fact that our material circumstances have a significant effect on the way our thoughts and lives play out. I don't take a pure "Great Forces" view of history, but the rules of the game and the initial setup of the pieces inevitably constricts what decisions the "players" can take, no matter how determined or clever they are.

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  5. Thank you for this excellent analysis of our ascent into airborne pluralism. While they have rationalized themselves out of the foundations of our castles, it seems we who ‘have the mind of Christ’ have done much the same by marginalizing that which we have been given. When Jesus said, “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth” (John 17:17), he located the foundation that Solomon would have surely pointed out to Socrates (Pr 2:6). Our hard acknowledgement and acceptance scripture’s anthropology is no easier or harder than its theology - lest we perpetually, as Socrates says, “be out of harmony with myself and contradict myself.”

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  6. This is a beautifully written piece.

    Everytime I read Prof, I inch closer to agreeing with him.

    However, the one issue that we disagree on is the question of letting other great faith traditions like islam and Hinduism propagate their faith as we would expect them to give Christianity that freedom.

    And I tend to agree with Poor John Paul II on this particular point.

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  7. Hi Ed.

    Your quote from 2020
    "Even now the prospect of an American tyrant in the Platonic mold appears far-fetched—but, like so many other things in these bizarre times, not quite as far-fetched as it seemed just a few years ago."

    Do you think we are close to this?

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    1. That's what I find admirable about Prof, he isn't the kind of person to sit back and say "I told you so", instead he will buckle up and push back against the nihilistic impulses, while a lot of people embrace the idea of fermenting chaos. Although I guess Prof should do a write up one day of what is worth salvaging.

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    2. Prof

      With Mark Carney's speech and deal with China, many are saying that it's the end of the previous world order, with it increasingly looking like US will not longer be the World's reserve currency in the long term.

      Do you have any thoughts on that?

      It's a very significant issue, what should be the status going forward.

      There will be a period of hardship no doubt.

      But how does this feature into your political and economic calculus

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    3. Schmucks like Mark Carney perhaps believe that 'world order' is actually determined by the rhetoric used in speeches made by schmucks like Mark Carney. I would be skeptical of such a view.

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  8. It's admirable that Prof, despite being one of the harshest critics of the current state of the west, would still venture to defend the "allied" west, in terms of allies like Denmark despite the fact that the people of Denmark would loath people like Prof Feser since they are all extreme liberals. That is true principle.

    I genuinely wonder though Prof, what do you have in mind when you say "preserve the west" after correctly predicting this path it has been heading on for years m.

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    1. Hi Norm,

      I’m from Denmark. What do you mean when you say we are all extreme liberals?

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    2. Sorry Andreas, it was an obvious exaggeration, but mostly liberal isn't a stretch, I presume

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    3. Andreas I visited Denmark in the summer of 74. I had a great time. Danis

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    4. I was going to say Danish women are beautiful and highly intelligent. And they were very friendly. I think by liberal Norm meant your government provides a lot services to its citizens more so than we do in the usa.

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    5. No worries, Norm. I’m not offended, I was just curious.
      And I think it’s certainly fair to say that Danish society in many ways is quite liberal. But in other ways not so much. We have all the same differences of opinion here as you have in the US.

      I was just wondering, because your impression seems to be that Denmark (or West Europe in general) is more liberal leaning than the US?

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    6. Hi Andreas

      Let me offer my sincere apologies once again. I had no right to talk about your country in that way. You obviously have a profound love for it and that's admirable. Please accept this apology.

      My general sense of the political situation is that, atleast topics like defending the unborn and defending traditional marriage can be safely breached in the United States. Some semblance of a resistance . Is there anything comparable in Denmark.

      And I again I sincerely apologise for being dismissive initially.

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    7. In Denmark. abortion is free and legal up to 18 weeks.
      https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2024-06-10/denmark-government-enters-agreement-to-extend-right-to-free-abortion/
      Denmark calls itself a Welfare State, and provides many free services to its citizens, which are paid for by high taxes. So, yes, compared to the USA, Denmark is a liberal country. It provides its citizens with a very high standard of living. The link below goes into more detail. It also explains why it would be hard for other countries to copy its model.
      https://denmark.dk/society-and-business/the-danish-welfare-state

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    8. Norm,

      You really don´t have to apologize like that. I wasn´t offended at all. I would be much too thin-skinned to hang around on this blog if your comment was enough to make me upset.

      You can criticize Denmark all you want. Believe me, there is a lot to be critical about. You mention two very good issues, especially abortion. We do of course have abortion debate and an anti-abortion movement, but it is true that this most important of issues simply isn´t talked about as much here as it is in the US.

      I guess I am often just confused about what people are specifically talking about when they use the word liberalism. It seems often to lead to some pretty sweeping statements.

      Anyway, I appreciate some debate and different viewpoints, Norm. That is why I am here.

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  9. You obviously can't appeal to 'philosophy' simply as such over against democracy, since Rorty himself is as much a representative of (contemporary, modern, postmodern) 'philosophy' (and not just democracy) as Plato. So I fail to see what is supposed to be incoherent about Rorty's position. Rather, Ed's allegation of incoherence appears to be based on a false equation of 'philosophy' with a particular distillation of the Platonic-Aristotelian-Thomistic tradition within philosophy. (One is reminded here of Plato's references to Daedalus.) It seems hardly fair to Rorty.
    Ed has written a very nice book on Locke; I'd be most interested if he'd write a companion piece on Newman. A quote from Grammar of Assent:
    "Why we are so constituted that faith, not knowledge or argument, is our principle of action, is a question with which I have nothing to do; but I think it is a fact... [N]o religion yet has been a religion of physics or of philosophy. It has ever been synonymous with revelation. It never has been a deduction from what we know; it has ever been as assertion of what we are to believe. I has never lived in a conclusion; it has ever been a message, a history, or a vision. No legislator or priest ever dreamed of educating our moral nature by science or by argument. There is no difference here between true religion and pretended."
    For better or for worse, plenty of grist here for Rorty's mill, seems to me, from our latest Church doctor.

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    1. I can't make heads or tails of what Newman is about in this passage.

      Why we are so constituted that faith, not knowledge or argument, is our principle of action,

      I acted with knowledge and argument as my basis just yesterday; I'll do it again tomorrow.

      [N]o religion yet has been a religion of physics or of philosophy.

      Some would suggest that Buddhism is a religion of philosophy.

      No legislator or priest ever dreamed of educating our moral nature by science or by argument.

      The Jacobins thought they could.

      Newman is great. Sometimes he is waxing poetic when others take him to be literal. I suspect this is one.

      In any case, politics can't be the foundation of how and why you think X is good, and if you try to run it that way, it turns (quickly) into sheer will to act and power over others. Something else has to be deeper truth than how you do politics.

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    2. Dr. McPike, You need to write another philosophy book.

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    3. To explain Newman, so far as I understand him:
      Faith is rooted in what Newman calls real assent, which is to say, assent through the (affective) imagination, not just (intellectual) notional assent. So you can notionally ('theologically') grasp Buddhism, but insofar as you really assent to it in a religious way ('faith') it must become imaginatively (affectively, incarnately) real for you. Praxis, not just theory. I'm sure Buddhists would agree.
      The Jacobins, Newman would point out, only dreamt of moral education and rule by science and argument insofar as they really imagined (and didn't just notionally speculate) that such a thing was really feasible and what they were actually up to.

      On politics as foundation of the good, I certainly don't see how it entails "sheer will to act and power over others." Why? Rorty's politics takes it to entail the opposite: Ultimately I must will to accommodate myself to my polity, precisely because I necessarily am not autonomous in relation to others and can't simply have power over them, even if (I think) I'm smarter (a potential Platonic philosopher king? -- ah, but Syracuse taught Plato to know better, just as Nazism taught Heidegger) than others.
      Insofar as politics is the culmination of ethics (as it is in the Aristotelian tradition), it certainly seems it can have/necessarily has a foundational role in relation to determining the good (or whatever happens to pass as the good). And the question is more about the details of how.

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    4. "Something else has to be deeper truth than how you do politics." -- I think that claim is susceptible of a very Rortyan reading. Yes, philosophy is engaged with deeper truths, but it is not meant, is not suited, to rule over politics. (Compare: the temporal sphere has relative autonomy from the religious sphere -- which is not an incoherent view.)

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    5. I'll add that Newman is not waxing poetic, he's waxing polemical in the passage quoted. He is arguing for the essentially dogmatic foundations of religion (Rorty would say the same for politics), as against specific proposals for rational/philosophical/scientific foundations. Aristotle would agree: it's no use arguing morality with a vicious man; only the man who has been rightly trained in virtue ('dogmatic' foundations, of a sort) can reason/judge rightly in moral and political matters.

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    6. David, thank you for a helpful exposition on Newman for this passage.

      Faith is rooted in what Newman calls real assent, which is to say, assent through the (affective) imagination, not just (intellectual) notional assent.

      I am going to quote what google offers about this:

      Cardinal Newman’s idea of real assent, detailed in his Grammar of Assent, is the personal, imaginative conviction given to concrete realities and lived experiences, rather than just abstract concepts. It engages the heart, will, and imagination, moving beyond "notional assent" (intellectual agreement) to deeply influence a person's life, actions, and beliefs.

      My commentary: A person is a wholesome, integrated and humane person, (living the good life qua human) when what he understands and reasons to be so about reality in his intellect coheres with what he loves with his will, what he longs for with his heart, and what holds his affections under the sway of his affective capacity, imagination, etc.

      The Church teaches that charity is a distinct virtue from faith: it is possible to lose charity through a sin, while not (yet) losing faith. This implies what he holds true (his assent to (part of) what IS) remains while he rejects its implication on his actions. This folds in well with the perennial philosophy that teaches that the will is a distinct faculty from the intellect, though of course the action of the intellect is critical to the action of the will: the operation of the intellect is a necessary but not sufficient act to determine the will. But also, that the person cannot be acting well (in the full and proper sense) if he is choosing (acting via his will) contrary to what his conscience tells him is right. That is be possible to act in a way that defies what we KNOW to be good in some real sense is necessary for there to be sin in the first place.

      Hence the wholly human good act necessarily entails a coherence of intellect and will together rightly apprehending and assenting to the good, respectively. The further happy human good act entails also the coherence of these with the affective, imaginative, and other faculties. The latter typically happens on occasion in the life of a person not yet habitually good, though often he rightly wills what he knows is good but does not (yet) feel like good - as the person starting to work out at the gym experiences. And it happens regularly in a person of true virtue, precisely because he has spent the work, effort, and suffering of subduing lower faculties to be obedient to the higher.

      To call the good, wholesome actions of such a man of virtue under the name "assent" puts a spotlight on ONE of the necessary elements of the complex outlined above, but (in my estimation) tends to obscure others. And it especially obscures the (typical) period of suffering that most of us must choose in order to get to the point where our heart, imagination, affections, and passions coordinate well with our mind and will in a coherent frame of good acted upon.

      If, rather, he only means to exclude (from being praiseworthy) those that say "Lord, Lord" but don't obey Jesus's commands, in the sense that they THINK (in some sense) that Jesus is Lord, but their chosen acts don't match up at all: it seems (to me) trivially true to say their "assent" isn't what it should be, but unhelpful to locate that flaw primarily in the imagination rather than the will.

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    7. On politics as foundation of the good, I certainly don't see how it entails "sheer will to act and power over others." Why? Rorty's politics takes it to entail the opposite:

      In my estimation, it wouldn't entail it as a necessary result, but it would LEAD to it most probably. I will try to expand below.

      Why? Rorty's politics takes it to entail the opposite: Ultimately I must will to accommodate myself to my polity, precisely because I necessarily am not autonomous in relation to others and can't simply have power over them,

      What is the source of this "must"? Why MUST I? Well, the answer tends to run in one of two pathways: either (A) because it is impossible for ME to be happy if I don't, happiness doesn't run that way; or (B) because I am UNABLE to accomplish having everyone just serve me.

      Suppose we try out (B): one man may be stronger than every other (individual) man in the social group, but never will he be stronger than EVERY other man in the group if they all act together to quell him. Yet the extremely strong man (or the smart man, or the very smart, extremely strong man) might BELIEVE he could prevail over the whole by a threat of sufficient damage to others to make them unwilling to try to overcome him - similarly to the way a bear might successfully stave off a large pack of 30 wolves: probably that many wolves (if well trained, anyway) could bring the bear down, but if in the attempt they would lose 20 to grave injury, it isn't worth it to the pack, so they let him take the prize. Likewise the strong bully. Or, the smart con man may cleverly fool all to follow his rules that serve himself - or at least he may well think he can fool them (with at least some evidence he could be right). So, (B) doesn't seem necessarily true.

      What about (A)? Well, the problem here is that selecting (A) as the reason for the "must" JUST IS saying that there is some other foundation for "the good" (for me) than "whatever I happen to will or prefer, imposed on all". It requires a belief in some standard about what happiness consists in, a standard that isn't itself "that people follow the rules of society" , because (as we all know) some rules are duds and some social formats are horrifically unhappy for (most of) the people. So, "to follow the rules and willingly conform to the social prescriptives" is, per se, a means to something else considered to be "the good".

      If you (by bad philosophy about the good) ditch the very idea of that higher good for which wholesome social modeling is a means, and are left with the social norm ITSELF as the ultimate "good", then what you tend to get in the long run (or even fairly quickly) is a totalitarian state like in "1984" and/or a tyranny like in option (B) above that the ruler(s) pretend is "for society" but it's just a lie, and they rule all for themselves.

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    8. Note that when the tyrant above rules, he ISN'T ruling "for society" thus he certainly follows some other principle of the good than "for society". He may have arrived at that notion not by philosophy, but he sure won't have arrived at a GOOD one without philosophy.

      only the man who has been rightly trained in virtue ('dogmatic' foundations, of a sort) can reason/judge rightly in moral and political matters.

      I assume that your virtuous man, when he judges political matters, judges in part based on MORALS and that these are taken to be something that ought to rule over politics.

      David, I suspect we are not so much disagreeing about basic points, as talking at cross purposes. The philosophy of Aquinas (not faith, not revelation, not religion) held that to DO well meant knowing what is the good for man, and this required understanding the nature of man and the nature of society. Hence it is a prerequisite for right action (as a habit, rather than mere ad hoc accident) to have studied man and learned natural law: philosophy.

      He never pretended that the knowing IS right action, that intellect is what commands the body to act. No: intellect doesn't rule in the way of choice and command, that belongs to will: intellect's kind of "rule" is formal cause, not agent cause: "X is would be a good action", not "Do X." But it takes BOTH, intellect and will, not just the power of choice / command.

      I take it that what Newman means by "real assent" (as you describe it), he is talking about the action whereby a man knows the good intimately by all of the apprehensive powers AND wills / chooses / acts upon it. Real assent (where an action is demanded by good morals) implies a good action is taken, not just recognized. But such completion entails MANY impinging faculties, including intellect, imagination, and affective powers alongside the will, and there are ordering relations between their distinct operations, it is not merely one protoplasmic blob of "action". The part played by intellect - to be reliable and habitually sound - requires something of a knowledge of the principles of human good, therefore of human nature and of rules flowing from human nature: natural law. A man raised to be virtuous might not have formally studied natural law, but he still must be able to recognize the truths which natural law teaches us.

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    9. But doesn't it seem like there's a little circularity in this? It seems to suggest that one can only assent to faith if one first comprehends natural law, but then that one can only comprehend natural law if one is already "habituated" to it. So it seems like you must already know the good before you can understand it, so your intellect must already be predisposed to accept natural law before it can accept natural law. So, ultimately, any intellectual assent given to faith must be based on non-rational grounds; ie, the fact that I have already been raised in such a way as to be disposed to accept the natural law. That seems awfully close to saying that I can't accept the faith intellectually unless I've been emotionally primed or conditioned by my environment to want to accept it. Is there something I'm failing to understand here?

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    10. I agree. It is all very circular. We get back to the same point but the Christian philosopher, at the fork, grounds the circularity on a belief in God. Why can’t I just stop at this ‘natural’ orientation? This is always the tension - one is led to believe that the only thing that can stop a descent into depravity is a foundational belief in a God grounding goodness. But it doesn’t, empirically.

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    11. Tony: "I take it that what Newman means by "real assent" (as you describe it), he is talking about the action whereby a man knows the good intimately by all of the apprehensive powers AND wills / chooses / acts upon it."

      No. He is talking just about what Aquinas calls an act of judgment, an act of the intellect. When such acts are appropriately joined to imaginative apprehension (sth like apprehension beyond 'mere concepts' to 'lived experiences') they are rightly constituted not to cause action but to directly mediate the state of the affections, and thereby a person is in proximate potency to choose to perform particular (moral) acts (and this choosing may still be free, not necessitated). But I'm pretty sure the assent itself just refers to the intellectual act (judgment).

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    12. "trivially true to say their "assent" isn't what it should be, but unhelpful to locate that flaw primarily in the imagination rather than the will."

      So that's not Newman's point. He is trying to explain/defend the necessity of integrating the intellect and the imagination in order to effectively motivate the affections/passions and, finally, the will.

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    13. Tony: "What is the source of this "must"?"

      I think the prior question is, what is the nature of this 'must'? And for Rorty it's clearly a hypothetical must: as in, if I wish to be a 'normally functioning' member of my polity (as most people are certainly disposed to wish to be), then I have to act in a way that is 'normal' and 'functional,' and not (in the eyes of those I live with) just bat-sh*t crazy. I'm still 'free' to do what I want, based on my own convictions philosophical or otherwise. But certain choices might lead to my freedom being exercised within the confines of certain unpleasant institutions, or anyway, untoward consequences. (Kind of an obvious given.)

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    14. EXE: "To those that have, more shall be given; to those that have not, even what they have shall be taken away." There's certainly some circularity there, call it positive feedback. The natural law starts with nature, and sometimes positive feedback is in the nature of things. And certainly any intellectual assent (or intellectual anything) is necessarily environmentally primed or conditioned. "How are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" But also if we are talking about assent to belief which constitutes the divine virtue of faith, then there is also a decisive role for grace to enliven, direct, illuminate the ever-present natural disposition to believe what is true. So it's not a vicious 'closed' circle.

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    15. David:

      I don't see how this goes anywhere, though. If I'm open to the idea of believing in God, but I see obstacles to the notion (IE, thinking there are inconsistencies in Scripture, for instance, or think that the evidence we have is too weak to make belief in the eschatological claims of the Church plausible), then what? I just need to hope that God sends a bolt from the blue to inspire me with the truth? To receive a feeling that bridges the gap between different possible interpretations of evidence, perhaps inspiring me to conclude to the less likely interpretation? All of this just seems like a riff on making a kind of irrational choice to believe in something you don't have sufficient evidence for. And what if I do this, then gradually come to the conclusion that I was wrong? The experience of others I've met online suggests that, regrettably, the attitude of many Christians is to work logically backwards on that question, presuming a priori that they are right and that there is strong enough and obvious enough evidence to compel belief, thus the other person MUST be dishonest and hard-heartedly refusing to see an obvious truth. This tends to happen despite the denier knowing full well that this is not the case, rendering any argument pointless.

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    16. EXE: You don't see where it goes? Well for starters it's pretty obvious where it goes: I answered your concern about circularity. Do you understand my answer or not? That's all I was addressing.

      (You can of course move on and change the subject and broaden the scope of the discussion, but I'm not interested in playing skeptical whack-a-mole with an intellectually unserious and dishonest interlocutor who can't take one issue at a time and actually address it before moving on to raise seven other likely spurious, certainly contentious objections just to show how clever and honest and well-versed in internet argumentation he is.)

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    17. So basically NLT is not relevant so we don't care about it. -- Why don't you care about it? -- We don't care about it because it's not relevant. -- Why is it not relevant? -- It's not relevant because we don't care about it. -- Riiight. And you really don't think it's possible that you're bigoted, biased, stupid, morally depraved, etc.?

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  10. Thanks for your X about Prof. Sandel He won philosophy's million dollar prize:
    https://berggruen.org/news/usd1-million-berggruen-philosophy-prize-awarded-to-michael-sandel

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  11. Excellent essay! Unfortunately will right in substance, There is no obvious way as a practical matter to implement this.. Is there a current political figure given to a Socratic post liberalism? Certainly not on the left and in the current Trump obsession not anyone on the right either.. There may have been a few ( Ron DeSantis in his better moments.. but his career is likely limited by The Trump hold on the Republicans.. Ben Sasse who unfortunately has an advanced cancer.. one would have thought JD Vance had potential but his ambition over managed his judgement and in his role of VP he has been obsequious in his support of Trump even when major principles are at stake..

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  12. Doc, I think it a safe assumption that you take the "correct" moral and philosophical worldview that the State should enforce to be Catholicism, no? In that case, am I correct in saying that you are essentially advocating for Integralism, or something much like it? The problem I have is that, well, these ideas have already been tried before, and with horrific results. Francoist Spain, Salazarist Portugal, and the Croatian Ustase all based their regimes on, or heavily incorporated, Traditional Catholic teaching and had very close ties to the Church. These were all repressive, dictatorial, and fascistic in various degrees, with two of them being outright allies to Hitler. Ignoring this history is like a Communist arguing for the goodness of Communism in the abstract while ignoring the history of the Soviet Union. It makes your argument look historically uninformed at best, outright dishonest at worst.

    Furthermore, you are in no better situation than the liberal as regards a universally-accepted basis for morality/law/politics/etc. It's true that none of the liberalisms ever gained full acceptance, but neither did Christendom and classical theism. To the extent that it did, that unity was imposed by force rather than by reason, making it just as baseless as Rorty's liberalism. Literally any worldview could serve as a basis for shared morality if it were imposed with sufficient violence on enough people. Of course, you believe it to be rationally demonstrable, and perhaps it is, but clearly you and yours are very ineffectual at convincing others of its truth, as evidenced by how alien it is to modernity. My overall point is that the kind of Christian Classical Theist worldview you pine for obtained its supremacy through force, and the only way you can reasonably hope to get it back is through force also. Are you in favor of that idea, Ed?

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    1. I tend to be wary of anything that look similar to integralism, but are these regimes the best that a catholic state can be or were they like that in part thanks to the particular situations that formed they?

      Suppose that the post-liberal philosopher king learns a thing or two with liberalism and formally puts in the constitution that Christ is the nation king, defines a few terms like "marriage", "woman" etc but overall operates similarly like what we have now, not necessarily criminalizing minorities or not using democracy as the principal source of legitimacy. Would thst be that bad?

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    2. Doc, I think it a safe assumption that you take the "correct" moral and philosophical worldview that the State should enforce to be Catholicism, no?

      No. Pretty sure that's what Prof. Feser would say. Not in the sense you're thinking.

      Take out the word "enforce" and you might be a little closer.

      Part of the problem with the Liberalism of Locke, Rousseau, and Rawls is that it pretends that it is possible to have a society that is neutral as to moral foundations, principles that underlie moral tenets, and so a government mustn't be in the business of enforcing the moral "theory" of some. It is wrong because EVERY governed society, every possible formal structure of rules, entails some supposed standards or principles - about which disputes arise. E.G. that the will of the majority prevails. Really? You mean, the majority cannot intend a moral evil, like slavery or Jim Crow laws? But more fundamentally, (as Nietzsche showed us) the very idea of "majority rule" is disputed by those who prefer to impose their will by force, who are perfectly happy with the law of the jungle. Some even assert it's "more moral".

      There's no such thing as a neutral order. Therefore ALL laws, as such, enforce the moral vision of some, and displace the competing moral vision of others.

      Part of the thesis of natural law is that some moral truths are true independently of religion, and can be discovered and proven without revelation or faith. A secondary part is that a valid proof doesn't imply that it will convince everyone: some are unable or unwilling to enter into the discussion without prejudice that impedes their assent. But a civil order that extensively utilizes natural law, while not being neutral about moral truths, need not be religiously oppressive when it enforces certain behavior (enforcing laws), nor when it promotes the views and thinking of those who espouse natural law, and demotes the views of those who oppose it.

      Ignoring this history is like a Communist arguing for the goodness of Communism in the abstract while ignoring the history of the Soviet Union. It makes your argument look historically uninformed at best, outright dishonest at worst.

      Between 325 and 1918, there were dozens, if not hundred's, of Christian regimes and social orders. There's a smorgasbord of examples, along with a massive amount of other factors than simply the prevailing local view of how the majority religion ought to influence governance. Most of them had elements of what WE think of as repressive forms, and yet many of them were also less repressive than the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman empires before them. It would be simplistic and grossly unhistorical to claim that every single one of them represented failed states on account of religious repression.

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    3. If some moral truths can be discovered independently of revelation or faith, why must the fork be taken and natural law, etc be *grounded* in faith ? It is absurd, to me, to give example of majoritarian evil, that was accepted and performed by Christians, in an argument ultimately meant to show that Christianity or Religion is our only way to ground morality or our moral intuitions. It is empirically not a deterrent to tyrannical evil, so why not cultivate this moral intuition in a Rortyian self-grounding sense? Empirically, again, some of our worst regimes are nominally Christian and the church has supported it. It would be better if we were humble in what we can prove and were communally committed to our better angels than thinking we have to prove foundations in order to be moral -and none of us typically behave this way, regardless.

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    4. I have never heard Dr. Feser ( or anyone else with a Ph.D) referred to as "Doc."

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    5. (1/2)
      **Part of the problem with the Liberalism of Locke, Rousseau, and Rawls is that it pretends that it is possible to have a society that is neutral as to moral foundations, principles that underlie moral tenets, and so a government mustn't be in the business of enforcing the moral "theory" of some**

      About Locke, this is just wrong. Locke did have foundational values that he did not consider negotiable, his neutrality is about not enforcing a RELIGION, specifically, not about having purely neutral morals. Rousseau was similar, advocating for a "civil religion", where the only tenets enforced were to be the belief in a Supreme Being, an afterlife, that the wicked will suffer and the just flourish, that the laws are sacred, etc. Again, he was only keen to avoid sectarianism, not trying to establish "total neutrality". Rawls is the only one of whom this is even a remotely accurate characterization, but even then, I think it's a mis-statement of his argument. Rawls comes from the position that it isn't reasonable to expect anyone to accept someone else's "comprehensive doctrine" as the basis of law - IE, expecting Catholics to accept Islamic principles or Muslims to accept atheist principles is not a thing you can expect to work in a pluralistic society. Therefore the best thing to do is to rely on the public political culture as the source of ideas.

      **Part of the thesis of natural law is that some moral truths are true independently of religion, and can be discovered and proven without revelation or faith. A secondary part is that a valid proof doesn't imply that it will convince everyone: some are unable or unwilling to enter into the discussion without prejudice that impedes their assent.**

      True, but you're downplaying the extent of the problem here. It's not just that Natural Law arguments fail to convince EVERYONE - you can hardly expect any argument to do that, however persuasive. The problem is that it convinces almost NOBODY anymore. Outside of the intellectual silo in which Catholic Philosophy operates, they have virtually no cultural relevance or persuasive power whatsoever. Those who do investigate them generally conclude that they are wrong or seriously flawed, and that doesn't just mean cheap Reddit Atheists, it includes serious intellects like Sobel, so it can't simply be dismissed casually as fools who don't understand it. If some people aren't convinced, that doesn't have to mean anything. But if a theory convinces extremely few people, that has far more serious implications for it. Is it really likely that nearly EVERYONE is so stupid, immature, or mentally corrupt that they are incapable of seriously evaluating your arguments?

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    6. (2/2)

      **There were a variety of Christian regimes...many of them were less repressive than the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman empires before them.**

      Well, for one thing, I wasn't asking about those regimes, I was asking about the known attempts to implement Political Catholicism in a modern society, since those are the examples most similar to the kind of society that would have to be created if Feser's ideas were implemented. The vastly different material circumstances that we live in compared to, say, Medieval France make any comparison with modern liberalism difficult. However, I still think your historical analysis is a bit head-tilting. First off, you're using ambiguous language by saying that an unspecified "many" were less repressive than three specific pagan societies. With this wording you could cherry-pick and end up comparing a Christian society from 1900 with a pagan one from 500 BC. That hardly seems fair. Secondly, your examples aren't great - Persia in particular was very progressive for its day, and much better for religious minorities than any Medieval Christian realm. Rome and Egypt, I don't know if the modern concept of "progressivism" is applicable to them, but at the very least the lack of a totalizing religion, one that views all others as illegitimate and the subjugation of nonbelievers, would inherently lead to them being at least more religiously tolerant than most Christian states. Thirdly, you're misconstruing my position by claiming that I call these places "failed states" just because I disapprove of them. My point was that we have evidence of what Feser's ideas lead to when they're implemented IN THE MODERN CONTEXT, and failing to address that historical evidence is just plain dishonest. If you propose a political idea, and that idea has been tried before to bad results, then failing to acknowledge that is either ignorant or dishonest.

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    7. To Talmid:

      "are these regimes the best that a catholic state can be or were they like that in part thanks to the particular situations that formed they?"

      Honestly? I don't know. I'll grant that they don't provide absolutely conclusive evidence that a Catholic State needs to be bad, but I'd argue they are significant circumstantial evidence, especially in light of the fact that we don't have evidence of Political Catholicism leading to good states. And in the sake of fairness, remember, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If such nuance is permitted to Political Catholicism, then it also needs to be afforded to Communism. In fact, I would say that it is quite plausible to argue that much of the starvation, suffering, and death seen and so often condemned in Soviet Russia, Maoist China, Castro's Cuba, etc are examples of this. After all, they were generally poor, underdeveloped countries devastated by civil war and often directly attacked (militarily, economically, or both) by Western powers in an attempt to hinder them.

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    8. "But if a theory convinces extremely few people, that has far more serious implications for it."
      Serious implications, you say? Sounds serious. And vague.

      "Is it really likely that nearly EVERYONE is so stupid, immature, or mentally corrupt that they are incapable of seriously evaluating your arguments?"
      I suppose you're seriously(?) inviting the question of the nature of the particular historical situation (situatedness) of human reason, and the extent of the endemic inherent elements of blindness (ideologically motivated confirmation bias or whatever) that might well be inherent in a given socio-historical context...

      I guess we could investigate by means of an example: What might your allegedly 'serious intellect' (i.e., dude with an academic soapbox?) Sobel have to say in defense of the claim that natural law arguments "have virtually no cultural relevance or persuasive power whatsoever"?

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    9. David McPike:

      Fine, then let me be more precise. If your arguments are unpersuasive to the vast majority of people, including educated people, then there are a few reasons why that might be. Sure, it is possible that your arguments are actually flawless and everyone is simply bigoted, biased, stupid, morally depraved, etc. But if you are even slightly honest, you should also acknowledge the possibility that the lack of persuasion is because of weaknesses in your argument - IE, that it may not be as strong or valid as you think. Refusal to consider this possibility is not wisdom, it is simple chauvinism. And, stepping aside from the question of being right for a moment, even if you are 100% correct and Natural Law is totally true, it being unpersuasive would STILL have very serious implications, because it would mean there is no hope of you ever converting society at large through argumentation. Your only path forward would be to seize state power and impose the Faith by brute force. Thus you would be committed to authoritarian politics - surely a serious implication.

      Sobel didn't need to defend the claim that Natural law is culturally irrelevant, and neither do I. It's not a claim, it's an observable fact - liberalism is everywhere ascendant and has been for 300 years. All of our arguments and disputes are framed in terms of personal rights, liberties, freedom, equality, and so on. Most arguments in the public space consist of people wrangling over whose position best respects and embodies these principles, and anyone who publicly contradicts them makes himself a social pariah. Even the Church itself often prefers to speak in terms of "human rights" rather than ends, essences, and natures. If you doubt the veracity of my words, I cordially invite you to go to any public policy discussion (outside of a custom-designed Catholic space) and attempt to advance a position based on natural law. My point is that Intellectual Catholicism only survives within a hermetically-sealed bubble, refusing to engage with modernity in a serious way. We can debate about whether Natural Law is true, but that it is culturally irrelevant at the present moment is beyond reasonable dispute.

      By the way, your attempt to throw doubt on the intellectual significance of Jordan Howard Sobel, one of the most prominent philosophers of religion in a long time, doesn't say good things about your knowledge of the subject. William Lane Craig and Robert Koons both had tremendous respect for the man.

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    10. The problem is that it convinces almost NOBODY anymore. Outside of the intellectual silo in which Catholic Philosophy operates, they have virtually no cultural relevance or persuasive power whatsoever.

      You appear to be hopelessly ignorant of cultural connections with ideas and social standards. Just for example, Just War Theory, first articulated by Catholic philosophers, continues to strongly influence social discussion of major political events. In the lead-up to the 2003 Iraq war, the public discussion, including by President Bush and by many of his supporters and detractors, explicitly called forth "just war theory" by name or explicitly invoked its major tenets. Many have done similar things with respect to more current events in Ukraine, Israel and Gaza, Iran, and Venezuela, (though not Trump, as far as can tell).

      Secondly, the preferences of classical liberalism, which swayed (to the point of control) all of modern statehood until recently, relies upon a number of premises that were held universally only because Europe was universally Christian and had been for many centuries. So, while said classical liberalism contains within it the seeds of the repudiation of Christian social norms in detail, it couldn't have "persuaded" the tens of millions without its Christian-based presumptions and their Christian ethos. It would never have convinced them if it's ultimate rejection of Christian norms had been made explicit up front.

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    11. Tony: "You appear to be hopelessly ignorant of cultural connections with ideas and social standards."

      No, no, Tony. YOU appear to be hopelessly ignorant of the FACT that it's an observable fact that the facts that EXE has observed have no need of being defended, as if they were claims that need to be defended, because they are not; they are observable facts. You idiot. And Jordan Howard Sobel would concur, which proves that he is a real intellect.

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    12. [Sorry, not "a real intellect"; rather "a serious intellect."]

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    13. EXE: "Fine, then let me be more precise."

      *I* certainly won't be the one to stop you from being more precise. In fact let me help you be more precise: did you perhaps mean to say, "let me be more *verbose* (while changing the subject and badly failing to respond to your argument)"?

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    14. Alright, so while I actually agree with the idea that a sound basis for morality and government must ultimately lie on philosophical foundations, and that a "perfectly neutral" government is impossible, I disagree with conservatism and natural law theory and am willing to philosophically debate them. I do also agree with a few commenters here that trying to implement certain ideas, in practice, has tended to lead to dictatorships. I'm jumping in now because I've wanted to discuss natural law theory for a while.

      So first, I do think that even if natural law theory is a largely Catholic thing, appeals to "naturalness" or "unnaturalness" as ethically relevant, are fairly common, even if less well thought out. (And I suspect most people's ethical views, including those of the "average" liberal, aren't very well-thought out. For instance, I personally tend to be dubious of appeals to "human rights" or "dignity," at least as something absolute and fundamental, because they often seem ultimately arbitrary without deeper foundations). I have my doubts about Tony's idea that the original acceptance of the premises of classical liberalism depended on Christianity, or at least that such a dependence was necessary and there was no way a hypothetical non-Christian Europe could have accepted them. I can't really argue for that because I'm not too familiar with the history, though.

      I also am concerned with what's true, even if it's unpopular (some of my own moral views are also unpopular and I doubt I can convince many people of them...), so I'll provide an argument against Natural Law Theory. Well, for now at least, it's mostly just the quick point that while sophisticated statements of NLT do get around some common objections (such as wearing glasses being morally acceptable), I think they still seem to generate the result that some acts generally considered acceptable, such as walking on one's hands or grabbing objects with one's feet, are immoral.

      Roughly, in humans, the function of the hands appears to be grabbing objects, not walking, and the function of the feet appears to be locomotion, not grabbing objects, but the aforementioned acts interfere with those functions. Also, grabbing objects and walking are both generally conscious, intentional acts instead of generally constant functions such as sight or hair growth (noting this as some argue that interfering with the former is different from interfering with the latter). If I'm misunderstanding NLT, I'd like to know. Or a natural law theorist could bite the bullet and argue walking on one's hands or grabbing objects with one's feet are immoral, even if only slightly. I doubt many people would accept that, though.

      And again, while many or even most people don't think deeply about their moral views, I suspect it could be a symptom of something deeper that some philosophers have also argued: teleology (at least outside the mind) is just not what is important morally. I believe Dr. Feser has argued that human teleology is the only way to ground morality objectively, but I disagree. For instance, I think that some mental states have objective value. (I haven't provided an argument that they do have objective value yet. I could if asked, though I don't want to get too off-topic. I will note that several philosophers have provided sophisticated arguments for this position). There are issues that still need to be resolved, but I believe NLT also faces issues, so I don't think the bare fact of "facing issues," is, purely by itself, a reason to accept NLT and reject other objectivist theories. I'm just trying to give a reason why some rational moral objectivists might reject NLT.

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    15. There are multiple confusions and conflations in your post.

      Firstly, Just War Theory is about the ONLY part of Natural Law Theory that has any cultural relevance at all, and even then it's only one competing voice among many. So, you are technically right, but you're cherry-picking the only successful child in the family of failures. What about the Matter/Form distinction? The Four Causes? Thomas' concept of motion? Nobody, not even you, uses any of these things when trying to explain anything in the world. Whenever anything serious happens to you, you turn to modern science. You only deploy Thomism to defend your religion.

      Secondly, Natural Law is not Christendom, so the putative reliance of liberalism on Christianity wouldn't mean anything for the relevance of Natural Law. Protestants, for instance, don't use this much. Secondly, being historically relevant in the rise of liberalism doesn't mean that Liberalism still needs it, and even if it did, that's absolutely not the same thing as being taken intellectually seriously in the modern day. At BEST, your argument here could only prove that Natural Law was part of a historical worldview that was eventually replaced by modernity. That doesn't somehow grandfather in the relevance of NLT.

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    16. I actually agree with much of what you're saying, EXE, but I have to disagree with "Nobody, not even you, uses any of these things when trying to explain anything in the world." Dr. Feser has argued in many blog posts that ideas such as the matter/form distinction and the four causes are important even outside of religion, such as in the philosophy of mind. (I found this blog first when researching philosophy of mind, in fact, which is where my nickname here comes from). He has pointed out that even some who don't accept the whole A-T metaphysics think that at least parts of it, or similar ideas, are useful (for instance, Heisenberg suggested potential and act could help understand quantum mechanics). To be very clear, I am not saying that I agree with Feser's philosophical views (though I think that at least some of this ancient metaphysics is a bit more defensible than commonly assumed). And I think that it is even possible to accept some of the metaphysics without drawing the same political and ethical conclusions Feser, or Catholics in general, do. Yes, natural law theory (and metaphysics in general) cannot be a replacement for empirical science, but that is not what metaphysics is supposed to be - for instance, it can be a way of interpreting the findings of science. And they do need to be interpreted. Just as a "philosophy-free" government inevitably has philosophical foundations - that are problematic because they are unexamined - a "philosophy-free" science inevitably has bad, unexamined philosophical assumptions.

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    17. @EXE

      Totally fair take, actually. I tend to see the catholicism that generated these repressive States as historically pushed to this kind of opression in great part by the conditions of the time, see for instance how the classical liberals and communists of the time treated catholicism, but also i would say that they truly were also by design wary of democracy, catholics were a lot at the time.

      Would a catholic State free of these fascism-friendly conditions and also with a post-Vatican II orientation* be different? I suppose that it could be so, but i can understand why you do not trust the possibility much.

      About communism, yea, historical communist States had a lot going own. I tend to say that they are more doomed from the start thanks to criticism like the Hayek one, but that is a fair debate as well


      *i have a great deal of reverence for the Extraordinary Mass and tend to be in favor of it being more free, but traditionalists are mostly inrelevant politically to the average catholic, let alone to the clergy

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    18. Intentionality Anon:
      Question for you: Supposing it was the case that it was wrong to walk on one's hands (setting aside for now any supposition of particular moral conceptual frameworks, such as 'NLT'), what do you suppose would be the reason?

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    19. If walking on one's hands were wrong, I suppose it might be because it is less efficient, harder to maintain balance, and so on than just walking on one's feet. I would say, though, that there seems to be a difference between walking on your hands even when those factors are important (for instance, you really need to get somewhere fast) and just doing it some times, when those factors aren't that relevant (for instance, if you're in your home and have nothing else to do). I also think that some things can be bad in practical terms without being morally wrong.

      A hypothetical person who could walk on their feet, but refused to do that and always moved with their hands instead, would be bizarre and probably making poor choices - but I don't think that's moral wrongness by itself. (I can't prove it, but I suspect many people would have similar thoughts about something like this). There could be moral wrongness if, for one example, the refusal to stop handwalking prevented the person from fulfilling moral obligations, but that doesn't seem inherent to the act of handwalking itself. But even if someone argued that making such pragmatically bad choices for yourself was morally wrong in some way...

      The key is - outside of those extremely unlikely scenarios, people don't really walk on their hands in such problematic ways. They do it occasionally, for fun, exercise, entertainment, and so on, which doesn't seem to be morally wrong to any degree whatsoever. It seems, for instance, that all else being equal, a circus performer briefly handwalking as entertainment is doing something perfectly acceptable - I doubt many would claim otherwise. So in the more usual sorts of cases, I don't perceive any reason that handwalking would be wrong - short of accepting some very particular moral frameworks and biting the bullet on their implications.

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    20. IA: "I would say, though, that there seems to be a difference between walking on your hands even when those factors are important (for instance, you really need to get somewhere fast) and just doing it some times, when those factors aren't that relevant (for instance, if you're in your home and have nothing else to do)."

      So to be clear there is no moral framework (is there??) which has as an implication that hand-walking is intrinsically wrong. But what you seem to be indicating here is that what morally matters is whether or not a given instance of hand-walking (vs. foot-walking) vitiates the end/purpose/teleology involved in that act of 'walking.' You say: "I also think that some things can be bad in practical terms without being morally wrong." Sure, but also some things can be morally wrong because they are bad, and known by their nature to be bad, in practical terms, correct?

      But we're likely to just go around in circles here given that you seem not to have any clear idea of what moral wrongness is, other than something we happen to have (often conflicting) intuitions about. I'd suggest you need to firm up at least a working hypothesis in answer to that question if you want to pursue a fruitful discussion of the issue.

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    21. appeals to "naturalness" or "unnaturalness" as ethically relevant, are fairly common, even if less well thought out. (And I suspect most people's ethical views, including those of the "average" liberal, aren't very well-thought out.

      I agree that with most people, their ideas of ethics are largely not thought-through, at least not very clearly or deeply. At most, they might dig down a couple layers of “why” and if they come to something that seems solid, stop there. Many don’t go that far. But in a certain sense, that’s partly because they aren’t philosophers: do we really think EVERYONE should be experts in philosophy? In theory, “the unexamined life is not worth living”, but on a practical level, what with the total disarray of persuasive agreement between philosphers even on MAJOR issues, even trying to examine it won’t get most people far, not without being professionals at it, and that’s not realistic. If philosophy as a discipline had achieved as much basic consensus as physics, more people would have been able to go deeper and both achieve reasonable conclusions and have decent bases for holding them. To some degree. In the ideal world, a really good (widely agreed) philosophical system (both moral and deeper) would give us good grounding for understanding WHY many of our basic, intuitive concepts about what’s right work (though not all), in roughly the same way a really good physics can tell us why a thrown ball takes the arc that the pitcher and catcher routinely catch with ease using their trained intuitive grasp of how physical objects move; they don’t calculate, but they most certainly know the physics in a practical way. This world (manifestly) isn’t THAT ideal.

      I have my doubts about Tony's idea that the original acceptance of the premises of classical liberalism depended on Christianity, or at least that such a dependence was necessary and there was no way a hypothetical non-Christian Europe could have accepted them.

      Fair enough, because I don’t hold that, either: not the “necessary” part. I observe that liberalism came out of a Christian Europe, (and not out of a dozen other developed civilizations), and draw a partial conclusion from that: the Christian west was fertile ground for it. There’s more, but I am willing to leave it at that for now: maybe Christianity wasn’t strictly necessary for it, that’s plausible.

      Well, for now at least, it's mostly just the quick point that while sophisticated statements of NLT do get around some common objections (such as wearing glasses being morally acceptable), I think they still seem to generate the result that some acts generally considered acceptable, such as walking on one's hands or grabbing objects with one's feet, are immoral.

      Roughly, in humans, the function of the hands appears to be grabbing objects, not walking, and the function of the feet appears to be locomotion, not grabbing objects, but the aforementioned acts interfere with those functions.


      You are working on (and against) the “perverted faculty” argument in NLT, which is just one aspect of it (NLT wouldn’t necessarily fall if the perverted faculty approach was shown to be invalid, but it does come in as a significant component). Oddly, I recently had to reexamine the concept in depth, and realized 4 points that make applying it more difficult than appears at first glance.

      1. A faculty isn’t the same as an organ. In the use of most faculties, more than 1 organ is involved: speech uses the mouth, the larynx, and the lungs & diaphram, not to mention the speech center of the brain. So, overfocusing on a specific organ can be misleading.

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    22. 2. Many organs have more than one use, and with more than one faculty. The mouth is for speaking (communicating), but also for eating / nutrition. These are separate faculties, and (generally) you can’t use the mouth for one WHILE using it for the other. But using it for one isn’t defeating / contradicting the other, it’s just a different use. A different use for another faculty isn’t CONTRARY to the end of the first faculty (nutrition isn’t a contrary purpose to communication).

      3. Actions are not the standard locus of contrarieties: you don’t expect to call action X the contrary of action Y, the way you expect it in qualities: hot is the contrary of cold, smart is the contrary of stupid, etc. There CAN be stated some contraries in action, but it’s not as straightforward as all that. Going west is contrary to going east, but going to the west coast is not the contrary to going to the east coast (if you are in Hawaii both are eastwards.) Most importantly, an action that rightly is in one category of action generally isn’t “contrary” to an action in some other category. (As in 2 above, eating and communicating are in different categories, their actions are not contraries to each other.)

      4. In the use of an organ, many actions can be said to be “more” or “less” fitting to the organ, without that being readily assimilated to “right” or “wrong” uses simply speaking. Where there are matters of degree in suitability, it can be difficult to discern definitive boundaries beyond which the action is simply out of bounds. As an example: in sensing the shape, texture, and resilience of an object, we (adults) tend to use our eyes and fingers (for touch) most. But infants, who have not yet completed the (hard) work of integrating the senses, use the mouth & tongue a lot for this. And they do so naturally, instinctually, so we can presume that this is morally fitting. We might be tempted to say that it’s “unfitting” to use the mouth for this kind of touch, but that’s probably because we adults have now decades after having integrated our sensory inputs so we can (usually) tell by sight & touch by hands, it would be WRONG to say it’s “unfitting” for infants, even if it is true to say it is “less fitting” for 4 year olds and even less fitting for 20 year olds. But because it’s simply NOT unfitting for infants, it is (probably) erroneous to say farther than that it’s LESS fitting for 20-year olds, which just isn’t enough to get you to a “perverted faculty” use.

      With some organs, they appear not so much to “have A use” as to “be ready for many uses”: they are generalists. The hands are an obvious example. Sure, they are good for gripping, but so much more: they can caress, they can slap (for violence or not), they can poke (e.g. to investigate), or just sense (hot, & pressure / weight), all totally distinct in form and end. The foot is made for walking (locomotion) but also standing still, or twirling in a circle, and kicking. You don’t violate and contradict the faculty of locomotion if instead you kick a ball. It’s a different use, but not contrary to locomotion. (There really isn’t a ready contrary of locomotion: you CAN move, or you can not-move, which is just NOT USING the faculty, not a wrong-use of the faculty.) (And you can (immorally) omit moving when you are duty-bound to move, but then the immorality is in the omission, not in the perversion of the faculty of moving.)

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    23. Most times when we don’t use an organ, we just don’t use the associated faculty: non-use of a faculty is not a contrary to the use, it’s just not a use. (Not eating is not a contrary action to eating, it’s a non-action.) So, I think that to locate a perverted faculty action, you have to (a) identify “the action” as in the right category as that of the faculty, and (b) see a use that defeats the end of the faculty. Bulimic engorging to then vomit would be a perverted use of the faculty: it’s a sort of eating, but defeats nutrition. (As an often useful indicator: it also damages the organ(s).) Note that you have to identify “the action” as bulimic eating, not just eating: eating WITH the object to vomit is a different species of act than eating with the object of nutrition.

      When you “grab” something with your feet (the trapeze artist hanging on upside down), you aren’t engaged with the faculty of locomotion, so the fact that your action doesn’t get you anywhere doesn’t defeat or contradictthe faculty. You’re engaged in a different activity, different category: you don’t somehow REVERSE the achievement of moving when you don’t move. (Nor does walking backwards constitute a perverse action: if you want to go backwards, walking backwards is fine (though may be less fitting, in some cases).

      Yet some actions might appear to be contrary to function without really being so. Take the guy (a dozen years ago) who was hiking alone in national forest, got his arm caught between 2 rocks, and could not get free. He waited 5 days for help & trying to get free, but no success. He finally cut his arm off to get free (and survived). Since it’s irrelevant (for moral analysis) that he used his free hand to cut off the caught arm, let’s assume otherwise, that it was impossible to use that hand, and that he did use the stuck hand to cut that arm off: it STILL wouldn’t be a perverted faculty event. The fact that he “damaged that hand” by cutting it off is not determinative, because the object of the act, (which determines the species of act) was “freeing his body” not “removing a hand”. He cut his torso free from being stuck with the stuck arm. The action was morally right: he saved his life, with the least damage he could manage. (Effectively, he performed surgery on himself: just like a surgeon who cuts off a limb too mangled to repair.)

      They do it occasionally, for fun, exercise, entertainment, and so on, which doesn't seem to be morally wrong to any degree whatsoever.

      Exactly right: it’s because “the act” is (roughly speaking) “to move in an unusual way”, and the motive is “for fun”. You are engaging the faculty of moving in a different way than usual, because you are using an organ LESS fitted to it than the feet: you are in fact moving, so it’s not DEFEATING the faculty of moving. And (using 1 and 2 above) using a different organ is just “different”, not contrary to “the purpose of the foot”. And because it’s a less fitting organ, it’s ridiculous and funny.

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    24. See, Tony, the problem I have with this further expansion on the Perverted Faculty Argument is that it renders the whole thing rather vacuous and arbitrary. PFA doesn't seem to explain anything. Instead of being treated as a being with many parts, we are now conceiving of them as having many "faculties" which may involve one organ or many, seemingly at random. Some organs have no clear function, which even you admit. You call them "generalists", but this itself causes more problems for you; it seems like, if there is such a thing as the prescribed proper use of a body part, it is very difficult or impossible to actually know what it is in the vast majority of cases. How would one go about enumerating the proper uses of the tongue, for instance? Is kissing someone a violation of the faculty of eating? Is it is own faculty? What of fingernails? And how in any case would you evaluate and enumerate all of these? What standard should be held up as the best, ideal, and normative? How do we know that the standards we've found are in fact what constitutes perfection for an organism, faculty, or body part? The whole thing seems arbitrary. These problems (how to demarcate faculties, how to rank perfections, and how to explain them) seem to gut A/T metaphysics' ability to provide useful explanations about the world and natural phenomena, at least in most cases.

      The biggest problem I have, however, is that this fact doesn't seem to matter to most of the proponents of AT Metaphysics, and especially the PFA. If taken seriously, the PFA would conclude that all sorts of things, such as smoking, chewing gum, or biting your nails are inherently immoral. Yet not only are these absurd, but PFA proponents seem to agree that they are not immoral. AT philosophers don't apply this kind of moral analysis to the overwhelming majority of human behavior. Certainly AT types don't write essays on the immorality of chewing gum and tobacco. It seems that this schema is kept around in order to act as a kind of apologetic framework in defense of the controversial claims of Christian revelation, ie wherever they clash with ambient non-Christian views - most notably sexuality. This bothers me, as it seems like the whole thing is just a shell game claiming to be rational, natural philosophy, but in fact being merely a cloak for the revealed claims of the Catholic Church.

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    25. David McPike,

      You have successfully managed to completely evade addressing anything I have ever said. Pompous sneering is not a substitute for argument. The fact that you seem to think A/T metaphysics is still a position taken intellectually seriously by the world at large, to the point where a denial of such requires argumentative defense, is both absurd (maybe spend some time outside of Catholic Universities?) and implicitly contradictory to your own verbose waffling in the first comment, which (so far as it makes any sense to me) seems to be an insinuation that I am crazy to suggest that it is implausible that basically everybody is too stupid or biased to honestly see the weight of your arguments.

      Come back when you have something other than slimy sneering and evasion.

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    26. EXE: So you've upped the nastiness, and the wildness of your blindly flailing stupidity. Well!

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    27. Tony, mon: likely seeriously, can you answer this reeally hard question or not: is kissing someone a violation of the faculty of eating?? Like seriously, you can't answer this question, and that is why you are completely irrelevant.

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    28. Ok, David, ya got me.

      Laughing, that is.

      @ EXE:
      would conclude that all sorts of things, such as smoking, chewing gum, or biting your nails are inherently immoral. Yet not only are these absurd, but PFA proponents seem to agree that they are not immoral.

      Umm, have you, like, read anything from history? Smoking WAS generally categorized as "a vice". And since it's damage to health has been been determined firmly, it IS usually set down as immoral by serious Christian moralists. Same with biting your nails IF you do it to the point of ill health. Are they immoral because of PFA rather than just because they cause illness? I haven't heard that hashed out, but in general causing yourself illness without rational benefit just is imprudent, and that means wrong. I suspect you're looking for intrinsically wrong, and no, they aren't that.

      Instead of being treated as a being with many parts, we are now conceiving of them as having many "faculties" which may involve one organ or many, seemingly at random.

      Get serious. You sound like a cave man being exposed, for the first time, to a biologist who claims that inside the skin there are MANY cells, tissues, organs, and organ systems, all with a complex interaction, and denying it all because it "sounds random". Do you really think there's doubt about whether the eyes are for seeing (at least), that it's "hard to figure"?

      The rest of your comment appears to be just wanting to not grapple with a detailed argument: you're free not to, (and some arguments aren't worth bothering about), but don't pretend that means you've show that it fails. All you've shown is resistance to considering it.

      To others: Natural Law Theory (NLT) extends far, far beyond the PFA category. And with regards to PFA, NLT theorists don't claim to have given a detailed analysis of all faculties, and the exact layout of each faculty's essential operations. Nor have biologists done so with the body. This does not represent good evidence that we don't know if we have faculties, or what some of them are.

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    29. "I suspect you're looking for intrinsically wrong, and no, they aren't that."

      Really, now? So violating the purpose of the sex organs is intrinsically immoral, but violating the purpose of the lungs or the fingernails is not? Why? It seems completely arbitrary. Justify this distinction.

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    30. By why, Daddy, WHY can't I cut my head off as an experiment? PROVE that it's a bad idea!

      You sound like a bratty toddler.

      An ordinary breath of air has about 20% oxygen. as AI says:

      Reduced Oxygen Concentration: As the tobacco burns, oxygen is consumed, and the oxygen concentration in the smoke drawn into the lungs drops to roughly 17% or lower.

      The point of breathing is to bring in air for the oxygen. The breath through the cigarette is about 17% oxygen. It's LESS oxygen, but not NO oxygen. It's less fitting, but does not simply defeat the intake of oxygen. (Nor is the intended purpose to simply defeat intake of oxygen, wherein the cigarette just doesn't do it all that successfully.)

      It seems completely arbitrary.

      You must imagine (as 4-year olds often do) that nearly ALL laws are completely arbitrary, as you haven't bothered to sift them to see if they might have a shred of reason behind them.

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    31. Alright. My apologies for the late reply, everyone. I was busy with real life, and I need time to write a thoughtful response to the points that have been raised. So yes, there is more to Natural Law Theory than the perverted faculty argument. I decided to discuss the PFA because it is arguably one one of the aspects that is commonly brought up, especially by those who don't accept NLT. Also, I am not very familiar with, say, Just War Theory. (I doubt I would fully follow JWT tenets, but I do accept the bare idea that, at least in the present time, war is awful but sometimes an unfortunate necessity, leaving absolute pacifism unrealistically utopian. Therefore, while my idea of "justice" might be different from a natural law theorist's, I cannot claim that all wars are inherently unjust.) If there is some other aspect of natural law that you think would be a particularly good idea to discuss now, I'd like to know.

      So about hands - yes, human hands have multiple functions and can be plausibly considered general in a sense. However, it really does not seem that walking counts as a biological function of human hands. Maybe it is a biological function of the hands of, say, monkeys, but humans aren't monkeys (not even evolutionary theory states they are) and have different sorts of hands. Now, if "function" just means "whatever someone happens to try to use a thing for," (I actually think this is somewhat plausible), then walking can count as a function of the hands - but that's clearly not the natural law analysis of function.

      As for what I myself think "moral wrongness" is, I'd roughly go by a harm principle - that acts that harm others, except to prevent greater harms, are wrong. No, this isn't a full explanation, but I freely admit I have strong consequentialist leanings and think common arguments against consequentialism can be countered (also, "consequentialism" is not limited to, say, "hedonistic utilitarianism.") I've actually been thinking about, for instance, whether truth is a fundamental value alongside pleasure and suffering. I think that this could possibly be developed and even respect common intuitions such as: plugging into an experience machine might be at least prudentially bad, even if you'd be happier in one than in your current life, or lying is usually wrong but justifiable in extreme cases such as a murderer at the door. But anyway, what I was trying to say is that I don't think doing something that only harms yourself is morally wrong, even if it is imprudent (Tony actually mentioned this).

      The thing is, though, that even if harming yourself is morally wrong, that by itself still won't get you the result that inherently nonprocreative sex acts are morally wrong, because such acts aren't necessarily more harmful than procreative-type acts. (I was trying to discuss a less charged topic, but sexuality did get brought up, so I will discuss it). So therefore, the perverted faculty argument, from what I understand, relies on well, perverting a faculty being immoral, even if it isn't "harmful" in the usual sense. The questions here are things like: Can we, even in principle, identify the faculties objectively and non-ambiguously? Even if we can identify such faculties, is "perverting" them really morally wrong? And bigger ones such as: What really matters in general? (For instance, is it biological function that matters, or is it pleasure and suffering?) Is morality objective? Can there be grounds for an objective morality even if natural law theory is incorrect? (I think yes).

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    32. I notice that you can't seem to argue this point without trying to cast me as immature and stupid for making it. Now why are you doing that? What kind of serious, rational position needs to be defended with ad hominem attacks?

      Your first "point" is a ridiculous strawman that has no relation at all to what I said. Its only purpose is to make me look stupid by assigning it to me.

      Secondly, the fact that you would rely on an AI to provide you with information important to your argument is alarming - AI models are infamous for their unreliability. Why don't you do some research yourself? Even if we accept the figure you give, though, your argument falls flat. Smoking does not only impede the intake of oxygen through the mouth, it also leads to carbon monoxide binding itself to your red blood cells, effectively replacing the oxygen they're supposed to carry. Thus, smoking actively hampers the delivery of oxygen through your body, leading to shortness of breath and reduced stamina. Therefore, smoking directly impedes with the proper functioning of the respiratory system of which the lungs are part.

      Source:
      https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/10643-smoking-and-physical-activity

      "You must imagine (as 4-year olds often do) that nearly ALL laws are completely arbitrary, as you haven't bothered to sift them to see if they might have a shred of reason behind them. "

      No, actually, I know full well that many laws have logical reasons behind them. I do not see the reason why the sexual faculty is so unique that it requires a completely different moral logic to the rest of the body parts and human faculties. This is what I asked you to provide, and you have still failed to do so, in favor of simply insulting me again. I mean, you're the one who has to defend this proposition, right? Where's the logic?

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    33. EXE,
      I almost always vehemently disagree with you, but I do agree that smoking should be considered as generally prohibited under the Perverted Faculty Argument. (There might have been occasions when the good of bonding with American Indians by smoking the peace pipe supersede the harm done to the lungs, for example). I argued that point several years ago (I think on the blog, but not sure). To my mind, this does not detract from Perverted Faculty Arguments with regard to sexual activities, but give an additional reason why traditional natural law advocates should not smoke.

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    34. I notice that you can't seem to argue this point without trying to cast me as immature and stupid for making it. Now why are you doing that? What kind of serious,...

      Indeed: what kind of serious thinker jumps into a discussion in the manner you did? I responded to Intentionality Anon's objections that called for a more detailed account because - as he saw it - the PFA applied simply seems to produce very unsatisfying moral conclusions, ones that we are inclined to think wrong. My response was to say yes, PFA applied simplistically, i.e. without sufficient attention to details and several other principles, does land on erroneous results, and so I supplied some of the additional principles. Your response, jumping in, is that "that's too complicated" and "prove it".

      Do you really think that the moral structure of reality - if there is anything at all that counts as morality - is simple? HAVE YOU READ ANYTHING about the human psyche and behavior, and how DIFFICULT and complex it is? Do you honestly imagine that any kind of useful account of morality isn't going to have quite a number of complicating aspects to it? Have you ever pondered your own actions, in the light of your own conscience, and found muddled motives and difficult-to-parse moral results? If not, you're morally a toddler or perhaps an 8-year old. If so...then you should expect complicatedness in the moral world. Which means you shouldn't complain at the mere mention of complicating factors (i.e. to show why the intuitive ideas in simple cases AREN'T wrong, if the PFA is valid) merely because I didn't give a totalizing account that sets forth ALL of the principles and all of the interrelations, (and didn't prove it in addition). Why would showing it's NOT perverted to walk on your hands make you upset, since you agree that it's not wrong? Are you upset that PFA isn't THAT stupidly simplistic?

      What, besides a world-class library full of data that (ultimately) correctly correlates human behavior, and human interior experiences about such behavior, with a moral account, could possibly serve as "proof". I didn't offer my analysis as if it were a proof. All I was attempting was a (slight) example of fleshing out the PFA with other parts of NLT so that the account could be considered at least not idiotic in regard to some basic, ordinary thinking on moral behavior. I couldn't possibly fully justify the whole kit and kaboodle in Prof. Feser's commbox. (Nor could he.)

      I do not see the reason why the sexual faculty is so unique that it requires a completely different moral logic to the rest of the body parts and human faculties. This is what I asked you to provide, and you have still failed to do so, in favor of simply insulting me again.

      It is YOUR account that the PFA applies natural law to sexuality "differently" than natural law applies to the rest of human actions. Not mine. In any case, I was responding primarily to Intentionality Anon, not to you. I never thought a principal aspect of my purpose was to specifically examine sexual morality and show how PFA used there "works exactly like" how PFA works in other arenas, and I decline the task now.

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    35. It seems like you're having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that your position is incoherent. If you held a position with a rational basis, responding to me would be trivial. As for maturity, I think you'd better just stay on topic; those in glass houses and all. I'll leave you to your discussion with Intentionality Anon, but if you wanted to have a private conversation, you would have told me to butt out the moment I jumped in (and I'd have respected that). Instead, you chose to entertain a discussion with me right up until you were asked to back up your beliefs, at which point you suddenly weren't interested anymore. Huh.

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    36. @Intentionality Anonymous
      As for what I myself think "moral wrongness" is, I'd roughly go by a harm principle - that acts that harm others, except to prevent greater harms, are wrong. No, this isn't a full explanation, but I freely admit I have strong consequentialist leanings...I don't think doing something that only harms yourself is morally wrong, even if it is imprudent

      First, I am just going to point out that within NLT parlance, by saying X action is imprudent, that JUST IS saying it's wrong, because prudence is one of the virtues that sets forth right behavior: right as to applying general principles to specific concrete cases as well as making sufficiently good estimates of downstream effects. But clearly you meant it in a different way, so I will let that pass.

      Interestingly, harm to others SHOULD be a standard, but in itself I think it requires a presupposition that might not be universally agreed: that we are social beings whose happiness implies / requires living together. Without that or something comparable that forces me to consider the welfare of others as pertinent to mine, I would be free to harm others. Even so, the principle needs to be a quite strong one to preclude ALL harm to others (except for the socially approved exceptions, police and army actions). Once you have such a principle, harm to yourself may be precluded because it harms others.

      So therefore, the perverted faculty argument, from what I understand, relies on well, perverting a faculty being immoral, even if it isn't "harmful" in the usual sense.

      If by "in the usual sense" you limit the scope to physical harm, I suppose that's probable. But the whole point of NLT is that it starts with a position that man is a rational being and his good, his happiness, lies in social and spiritual goods in addition to his physical well-being. Those who reduce ALL evil to "someone suffered physically" are, right out the starting gate, refusing to deal with that NLT point.

      With spiritual good, knowledge of truth is an inherent value. Also, non-physical goods like honor and fittingness come in. From the A-T understanding of the rational human nature, love, friendship and marriage are spiritual goods, from which flow that marriage is for life, and that the reproductive faculty as a faculty of the RATIONAL being entails permanent, life-long love of the children produced. This alone doesn't directly get to the idea that the sexual organs are exclusively for reproductive purposes (as, after all, the male's is also for waste management), so more needs to go into it. So (circling back) allowing or even causing physical harm in the course of providing for a much more valuable spiritual good remains rationally viable.

      But another part of the A-T system addresses this latter with an important distinction: the distinctly human act, as such, is not merely "the act of an animal who happens to have very clever techniques for fulfilling physical goods", it is deeper than that. The nature of the distinctively human act is that of a rational being acting to understand and adhere to rational goods and to (often) engender physical activity in pursuit. This means that the human act must be analyzed by its object, motive, and circumstances as known to understand whether it is morally sound. If Bob cuts off Sam's arm, that appears as "Bob did harm". But you have not yet specified a human act, without addressing what the object and motive was: Bob is a surgeon, the arm has gangrene, and Bob was removing the infection to save Sam's life. Now we know the object, motive, and circumstances, and from THAT the specification of "the act" does not include "Bob did harm" simply speaking, it's "Bob did a great good" through causing something that implies physical harm when not qualified by other factors.

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    37. Hey, IntenAnon, I know that Tony's not responding to my comments anymore, but he didn't say I couldn't talk to you. So, I think I should direct your attention to the fact that Tony is now appealing to "spiritual goods" in a system that is allegedly nonreligious. Seems like a bit of a loaded term, doesn't it? Maybe you should press him on what he means by that.

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    38. Good grief, I said what. Truth, knowledge, honor, fittingness, friendship and love are not physical goods, they are spiritual goods. But that doesn't make them "religious". Did you ever hear someone say "I'm very spiritual, but I'm not religious"? Some atheists expressly believe in the human spirit, and many are agnostic about it: not believing in a religion doesn't mean you think friendship isn't good, or that it's physical.

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    39. (Part 1)

      I got busy again, so sorry for the late reply, everyone. So yes, I agree "spiritual" doesn't necessarily have to mean "religious." The question is how specifically it is to be cashed out in a non-religious sense. (And to be clear, I'm fine with discussing the truth or falsity of religions elsewhere. I just think that because Tony is currently arguing that there are non-religious reasons for certain views, I would prefer to stick with that and not bring in another topic which might really derail the current conversation).

      My understanding of "harm" is by no means a purely physical one - there are many forms of suffering beyond just pain (and I suspect that even feeling pain might require a non-physical element - I'm not fully convinced by the A-T analysis of the sensory qualities). For just a few examples, being terrified, feeling unrequited love, or being frustrated by a failure to understand something could count too. (This certainly does not mean that causing these feelings is always immoral - not only can it sometimes prevent a greater harm, it's often difficult or impossible for someone to not feel these. And I agree that even some actually immoral acts should not be illegal, if making them illegal would lead to worse consequences. Interestingly, I think at least some variants of consequentialism do imply that harming yourself if unnecessary to provide a greater benefit to yourself or anyone else is outright immoral. I have my doubts, though).

      What I'm dubious about is that "perverting a faculty" objectively causes harm, even to the one engaging in it. I think that biological functions just aren't morally relevant in themselves - they only have indirect moral relevance insofar as they affect our psychological states. And to use the example that keeps being brought up, nonreproductive sex acts don't necessarily have any negative psychological effects, and may even have significant positive ones. (I think sexuality and reproduction is, indeed, a special case. Much of the time, not carrying out a biological function will lead to suffering or death, but not so much for reproduction. I suspect that we can pick out reproduction as a biological function anyway for evolutionary reasons).

      But there are arguments, including by many who don't accept natural law, that there can be non-psychological harms. Besides the experience machine I mentioned earlier, for instance, it might seem that someone is worse off if a friendship is faked than if it is genuine, even if they never realize the truth. I suspect that such judgements can be justified by truth being an intrinsic value. Notably, it seems that rejecting that even the mind has teleology, or that epistemic normativity exists (even if it isn't the same as moral normativity), might lead to incoherence and an abandonment of reason itself. However, non-procreative sex acts don't interfere with truth either, at least any more than procreative sex does. (Unless the former actually is wrong and engaging in it requires rejecting that truth - but whether it is or isn't wrong is precisely what is in question in the first place, so an appeal to that would be circular now).

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    40. (Part 2)

      So what I'm getting at here is, as I said earlier, that I think there is a plausible analysis of "harm" that can ground an objective morality. But what objective reason is there to accept something like this, especially instead of natural law theory? I believe that reflecting on the nature of our mental states shows us that some of them have intrinsic value or disvalue. Several philosophers have made this argument in a much more sophisticated way. Meanwhile, it is debatable whether we can fully objectively identify functions outside the mind - and even if we can, are they really what matters morally?

      We've already discussed the hand-walking example, so here's a different one. Tony gave the example of bulimic eating and vomiting as a perversion of a faculty that seems bad in a relatively noncontroversial way. But as Tony notes, bulimia tends to damage the organs, which is probably going to lead to suffering and maybe even death. So even if someone with bulimia felt immediate pleasure from vomiting, there're still reasons that are not based on the perverted faculty argument to judge it as overall bad (whether this is specifically moral wrongness or not). But what about eating a tasty, yet non-nutritious food?

      While constantly eating such foods to the point where you aren't getting enough nutrition would be bad, doing so occasionally while being careful about your overall health seems perfectly fine. However, it also seems very similar to nonreproductive sex acts. Without nutrition, there wouldn't have been eating in the first place, just like without reproduction, there wouldn't have been sex in the first place. (I said that there's a case that always eating non-nutritious foods is bad. Would that mean exclusively engaging in non-reproductive sex is bad? No, because it's possible to have a good life without engaging in reproduction at all, while it's not possible to have a good life completely without nutrition. Even Feser, while defending the PFA, states that total celibacy is morally acceptable).

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    41. I think that biological functions just aren't morally relevant in themselves - they only have indirect moral relevance insofar as they affect our psychological states...So what I'm getting at here is, as I said earlier, that I think there is a plausible analysis of "harm" that can ground an objective morality. But what objective reason is there to accept something like this, especially instead of natural law theory? I believe that reflecting on the nature of our mental states shows us that some of them have intrinsic value or disvalue.

      Intentionality, you have some good points, and I admit that I am not deeply-enough versed in the PFA to have ready answers to some of your points above. Let me just focus on the quote I captured. I suspect that "harm" is unable to ground a morality without sneaking in something that - ultimately - itself derives from the nature of man, which reduces to NLT in effect. If someone just right out says "I simply DON'T CARE that I harm others, I am satisfying myself, and that's all I need for justification", I doubt that the "philosophers" have an adequate answer to that which doesn't borrow from innate worth that is innate because it's man's nature . Psychological states, themselves, need an account to provide a value outside of the self. However, I doubt that this commbox is a suitable place to hash it out, and I think you implied also that this is too limited a space. So I don't intend to pursue it here.

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  13. The rejection of "Calliclean postliberalism" is most welcome. But our particular moment has to reckon not with e.g. Rorty's interpretation of what "liberalism" is, or with some other theoretical interpretation of our social life, but with the actual and concrete structures and institutions of our society, government, and laws. Anyone who wants something different must not only say what he wants them to be replaced with. He must propose a just and reasonable method for change, as well as show why his method would help bring about the change he wants, and why his method would bring about peace and safety - not just virtue. This kind of proposal was one thing Socrates never seemed to care about.

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    1. Anyone who wants something different must not only say what he wants them to be replaced with. He must propose a just and reasonable method for change, as well as show why his method would help bring about the change he wants, and why his method would bring about peace and safety - not just virtue.

      A total proposal would entail all that. But it's a large project, and a large discussion, (book length at a minimum), and most people won't take that much time, especially when the later 3/4 of the proposal won't be given hearing because you have a problem on page 2. There's a place for breaking up the larger picture into component pieces, where you might get some degree of agreement on part 1 through a long round of discussion, THEN move on to parts 2, 3,...17. And maybe part 4 needs to be tweaked in virtue of the partial agreement you got in parts 1, 2 and 3.

      Arguably, ANY method that brings about virtue will include peace and safety. (Though the converse is not true.) Justice is part of virtue.

      A complete overhaul of the whole order is difficult on so many levels that it is hard to even describe the difficulty, much less solve it all. Almost always it's better to keep what portions you can, eliminate in their entirety only modest portions, and then revise others.

      An absolute and complete overhaul of all norms (touching both personal morality as well as social morality and governmental forms), is implausible as to its rightness even apart from the question of how to get there justly. One of the advantages of the American break-off from Britain is that it was not a revolution against norms, nor even a total revolution against simply the prior governmental order: the colonial governments were left in place, and the form of the US federal union borrowed many of the elements of those tributary streams of governance norms. And left personal moral norms alone, as well as most social norms.

      But more than anything, that change incorporated rather than repudiated the common thinking of the common man that "we can rule ourselves", which Britain objected to. The postliberal proposals (plural) must tackle the problem that what is needed is indeed at least party new, foreign thinking to the common man, it entails a level of persuasion / education that the American patriots didn't need to accomplish. So, in my view, any postliberal proposal must allow for generational periods of time, during which intervening conditions will necessarily affect the later course. '

      A complete proposal right now is probably out of order for practical consideration.

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  14. https://x.com/i/status/2014432547921432736

    This is a great article on why Vance shouldn't be invited to the Pro Life Match movement.

    Yet Vance's presence will be celebrated by figures like Dr Chad Pecknold.

    Prof retweeted this article and is so far the only person from the post liberal camp to even take a strong stance against this administration. That is admirable.

    And I with Prof ,condemn attempts to associate Dr Pecknold with being a Nazi , it's atrocious, yet it is clear to me that there has been no significant and direct pushback on him from within the post liberal camp.

    I have found figures like Dr Michael Pakaluk who have been critical of aspects of Post Liberalism to be much more consistent on the issue of abortion.

    Sohrab Ahmari has in fact defended in JD's capitulation during the 2024 campaign.

    Despite my love ,admiration and appreciation for Prof and his work, which I will continue to recommend for the rest of my life,( I even got my room mate to consider buying immortal soul),

    I can't help but get this sinking feeling that sometimes it seems like,

    "For my enemies, the natural law, For my personal friends, everything."

    With the greatest of respect to Prof :)

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    1. The conservative movement is controlled by libertarian billionaires and mid-sized employer lobbies. That is the strongest faction within the movement, the one that mostly funds things and sets the agenda. However, we live in a democracy, and they have to actually win elections to pass their agenda. Libertarianism is usually difficult to sell to the public in a undiluted form. Immigration restriction polls very well and has widespread appeal. Its how Trump won the nomination in 2016, how he won the general election in 2024, and its consistently his best issue in polling, even when his poll numbers are down. Going to the right on immigration arguably saved the Republican Party after Bush (who was pro-immigration) destroyed the party's credibility. In contrast, pro-life does not poll well. A majority of voters are pro-choice and have consistently been so for decades. Its extremely difficult for pro-lifers to change these numbers because it requires persuading people to limit their personal options in a realistic emergency scenario for abstract philosophical reasons. Opposing immigration requires no similar sacrifice or moral abstraction if you are a native born white citizen who is already inclined to distrust foreigners and "expert" pro-immigration economists. If abortion bans with real teeth were on the table, the Republicans could expect to face an electoral wipeout. So while the libertarians in charge of the GOP benefit from the donations, activist energy, and votes of pro-lifers, the cons of actually delivering on pro-life policies in a serious way outweigh the pros.

      I think religious conservatives and pro-lifers need to realize that someone can be opposed to egalitarian gender roles or transgenderism, yet also be irreligious and pro-choice. If there is a revival of "social conservativism" in the US, it may take that form rather than a religious revival. The US would look more like modern Japan, Korea, Italy, or Portugal than the Bible Belt or Catholic immigrant enclaves in the 50s.

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    2. I think it's a strong point in general, that since this administration has already been willing to do wildly unpopular things, they should also be willing to stand up for the sanctity of life.

      Aa Prof said

      "Now look at the polling on tariffs and annexing Greenland. The administration is quite willing to ignore public opinion on issues it actually does care about."

      At the same time Prof has also criticised the govt precisely on grounds that tariffs and Greenland would cause an electoral bloodbath which I agree with.

      It's also true that taking this strong action on the abortion issue would also cause an electoral bloodbath.

      So, I guess Prof should just come out and say that protecting the unborn is worth having an electoral blood bath, because he is definitely implying this.

      I don't know what to make of this, what if the electoral blood bath causes even worse policy to be enacted by the democrats.

      This is one of the few issues where Prof is very weak pragmatically speaking. I think he should just come out and say that he would tolerate an electoral bloodbath to save unborn lives.

      But then he must explain why this is the better alternative overall.

      I also tend to favour strict action like this on abortion but I don't have any answer when people say it will cause an electoral bloodbath.

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    3. Interesting. Unfortunately, people generally are pretty resistant to understanding and dealing with the realities of their situation. This goes both ways, of course - the Democratic party base has been furious with their leadership for well over a year now over their unwillingness to accept that the grassroots now wants them to cut ties with their neoliberal donor class, drive substantially to the left, and stop being scared of the label "socialist". Then again, I wonder if acknowledging this is particularly difficult for a conservative Catholic position? Maybe not, maybe I just have an unfairly negative view. But it seems to me that it would be hard for a conservative Catholic or other social conservative to truly accept that the majority of people absolutely cannot be won over to their positions, given how much importance they place on other people believing those positions too.

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    4. Dr Chad Pecknold also retweeted this tweet of Matt Walsh

      "In my entire life we have never had anyone in the White House who would ever talk about abortion in these terms, or even talk about it at all. If you’re a conservative and you can’t appreciate this, I don’t know what to tell you. You’re just determined to be mad no matter what. Great stuff from Vance."

      Your friends think "you are determined to be mad no matter what", Prof

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    5. I think he should just come out and say that he would tolerate an electoral bloodbath to save unborn lives.

      But then he must explain why this is the better alternative overall.


      I don't get what you think "electoral bloodbath" implies in this context.

      The SC at this point turned abortion back to the states. A presidential extremely unpopular decision that even first term abortions is not allowable would have virtually no impact on "saving unborn lives". It's one thing to stand on principle to have an effect in one area even though it has really problematic effects in other areas. But to NOT have any appreciable effect even in the one area you're trying to repair?

      An electoral bloodbath would result in pro-life republicans LOSING in most state houses. Again, directly contrary to the object of "saving unborn lives", since those are the legislatures that could save said lives.

      In my opinion, the obvious place where Vance (and Trump) could have held the pro-life line is to repudiate in vitro fertilization methods. Here, (a) there is SOME degree of good that a federal rule might have an effect - if not phrased in terms of "but you abort all those humans". And also (b) such a position wouldn't even be all that unpopular: sure, it would be EXTREMELY unpopular with the people who actually are involved in in-vitro stuff, but that's only about 2% of the population. Not enough to swing most state houses that could be swung. (CA, NY, MA, and CT can't be moved pro-life-wards anyway, and TX, WY, MT, MO, MS, and AL wouldn't change majorities on such a repudiation.) Vance and Trump gave away an easy plank to keep, for virtually no real benefit: I fear it shows Vance's internal commitments in a really bad light. (Not so much Trump, who never was a real pro-lifer as such.)

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    6. Tony I agree, IVF, was something that they didn't have to endorse and even positively taken a stand against the blatant commodification of human life which would have not been so unpopular.

      I just wanted Prof to clarify what are the consequences of backlash he is willing to tolerate.

      Delete
    7. I wonder if people like Musk pushed IVF and transactional Trump was like "sure, I can do that."

      Delete
  15. I just saw the news, and I just can't bring myself to comment on Prof. Feser's thoughtful post.

    ReplyDelete
  16. At the end of the day though,

    I don't want to be someone sowing discord. At the end of the day, how someone handles personal associations is a personal matter m

    Maybe I should be spending less time online.

    It's just in my nature to point out inconsistencies because that's the only way we can improve.

    I apologise for being a prick.

    I'll take a break from commenting here for a while.

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  17. "Maybe I should be spending less time online."
    All of us should be spending less time online.

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  18. Near the end of the Gorgias, Socrates tells Callicles to “listen, as they say, to a very fine tale, which you may consider a myth, but I regard as a true story.” The lesson of the Gorgias is that faith saves reason. Without faith, reason liquifies as it has done in Rorty’s philosophy.

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  19. Hi Prof

    I have been genuinely struggling with how to go about this issue.

    We have seen how even in red states abortion measures have failed referendums, with Florida being the exemption, even though it came quite close to 60% in Florida.

    Suppose, Trump switches and bans the abortion pill, talks favorably about a national 15 week ban.

    And swing voters decide to punish republicans for this.

    I don't think we should compromise on the abortion issue. But I also think that entails we should openly say that it's worth losing elections over which I don't mind.

    Would you find this to be a cause worth losing elections over ?

    I agree with you when you say

    "Yes, but what matters are the independent swing voters who decide elections. Both major parties are now hot garbage, and these voters use their votes to punish whichever one happens to be taking its turn wrecking the country. This is where we’ve been for several election cycles"

    But we ought to not give too much deference to these Swing voters on abortion, right ?

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  20. "Classical liberals need to get over themselves and stop pretending that the rule of law and separation of powers are their private property, and that classical and Scholastic exponents are somehow “proto-liberals.” Also, postliberals must not cede these crucial principles to them"

    Oh Come on Prof, when literally every purported post-liberal, is critiquing this supreme court decision as a blight against post liberalism with the exception of you, it doesn't make sense to target the classical liberal for having that impression.

    It's like a more informed atheist criticising the formidable theist for taking apart the new atheists on the grounds that the new atheists don't represent all atheists. Ofcourse the theist will reply, "well that's fine but the new atheists are surely making helluva lot of noise in the name of atheism, shouldn't you be severely reprimanding them first, before coming at me".

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    1. I have only seen some of what others have said, though I don't think all of them have in fact commented on it one way or the other. For my part, I'm just saying what I've already said for years, including at Postliberal Order:

      https://www.postliberalorder.com/p/postliberalism-without-despotism

      I'm not now going to suddenly pretend that the rule of law and the like are somehow uniquely classical liberal after all, just because of what other people are saying or not saying today in hot takes about a current event. It isn't true.

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    2. I also don't think those aspects are inherently classical liberal.

      Although a lot more of them stand up to defend it.

      I also think that it should not be a matter of debate in Post Liberal circles.

      Either ways the issue has to be parsed out.

      This particular issue might be a good example to study in the future because it's a combination of law and economics.

      Whatever the ideological underpinnings though, I take you and Dr Budziszewski to be the most reasonable and sane on a lot of these issues.

      Online there a lot of post liberals who can't fathom this decision, while you infact noted almost a year back that the tariffs would be challenged precisely on the same grounds it would eventually go to be struck down on.

      As you wrote

      "The second problem with the execution of Trump’s tariff policy concerns its dubious legality. It is Congress, rather than the president, that has primary authority over tariff policy, and it is implausible to suppose that it has delegated to him authority to impose a tariff policy as draconian as the one announced. It is also risible to pretend that we face some “emergency” that licenses such action, given that the purported emergency is merely the continuation of an economic order that has persisted for decades and through periods of high prosperity, including the period during his first term that Trump takes credit for. What we seem to have here is a textbook case of the demagogic manufacture of an “emergency” to rationalize the acquisition of extraconstitutional power."

      What enables one post-liberal to have this foresight while another doesn't might make the difference in the end I guess.

      Cheers Prof

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    3. https://x.com/i/status/2026467758880469043

      Hey Prof,

      I have been watching from the sidelines your debate on twitter with Post Liberals Gladden and Pecknold.

      Please give my thoughts a read, because I think you will be able to clarify a lot of you respond to this points in public.

      Obviously I think they are misrepresenting you.

      But I think you are failing to get completing their drift especially that Dr Pecknold.

      If you look at the thread, you'll see Dr Pecknold framing it in terms of ,"I want our country to continue existing".

      This is important Prof, because you see while you are operating from the valid and obviously sane presupposition that our institutions are still valid , that America as a polity still ought to continue, hence election results ought to be respected, you continuously say "when democrats win , it won't be good for us", again that presupposes defeat is accepted as per the constitution and it also assumes the America ought to continue as a nation even if Democrats win and that Republicans should work within that electoral system as it's still a valid institution.

      All these are admirable presuppositions, I would guess years of living in California despite liberal chaos, you have a love for state and country that goes beyond politics and hence think that it's Institution's are worth preserving despite the oposition coming in power.

      Now here's the catch, your interlocutors don't see it in this way at all, for them it's either do whatever we can now to ensure the opposition never comes into power even if it means destroying all the checks and balances that are in place, hence moves like, destroy the filibuster, redistrict, Concentrate power in Trump, nullify Congress, use lawfare to target political opponents etc

      Sadly, for your post-liberal interlocutors (I do hope I am wrong), it's either Republicans stay in power or if the left comes into power, they see themselves as defacto at war with the state which will in turn make even more drastic acts permissible or even commendable, think January 6th and election Denial or refusal to concede. That is why those college republicans aren't thinking about it in terms of "what will happen to us" if Democrats win, for them if Democrats win, they are at war with the state.

      That is why Pecknold's repeated requests for you to clarify and his framing of it in terms of "whether the country exists", Prof.

      So in your response, which I presume will be in the form of an article, you have to actually also make the case to them why is America as a nation and institution still worth continuing, and why republicans ought to respect the election when Democrats win. Basically to make your stance clear to them, you will have to resort to the Just War Principles that explain why Anarchy in this situation is Wrong, no chances of winning, even worse outcomes like destabilisation of whatever social order remains etc, that is even with the generous presupposition that they have a valid cause which I also think is extremely questionable to say the least.

      Again you'll be surprised when you make these obvious points especially against Anarchy, that many people in that faction will find grounds to oppose you Prof or maybe you won't be surprised.

      Cheers

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    4. James Patterson put it clearly in response to Dr Pecknold and Gladden Pappin challenging Dr Feser,

      You actually ought to retweet it Prof, if your friends can challenge your post liberalism, you ought to be able to challenge theirs

      "The thing is that @ccpecknold and @gjpappin will say this dreck, and then they will hype up JD Vance, even though Vance endorsed subsidizing IVF treatments in a way directly contrary to postliberal values. This is the very same kind of “beautiful loser” approach, and the only meaningful difference to them is that they get greater proximity to power. No thanks."

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