The good
I have already
had a lot to say about the subject on Twitter, but an article summarizing the main
points might be useful. The first thing
to note is that at the Declaration emphasizes that there is no change to the
relevant doctrinal principles, which it explicitly reaffirms. It also emphasizes that no blessing or
liturgical rite that might imply such a change can be approved. Here are the relevant passages:
This Declaration remains firm on the
traditional doctrine of the Church about marriage, not allowing any type of
liturgical rite or blessing similar to a liturgical rite that can create
confusion…
Therefore, rites and prayers that
could create confusion between what constitutes marriage – which is the
“exclusive, stable, and indissoluble union between a man and a woman, naturally
open to the generation of children” – and what contradicts it are
inadmissible. This conviction is
grounded in the perennial Catholic doctrine of marriage; it is only in this
context that sexual relations find their natural, proper, and fully human
meaning. The Church’s doctrine on this point remains firm.
This is also the understanding of
marriage that is offered by the Gospel. For
this reason, when it comes to blessings, the Church has the right and the duty
to avoid any rite that might contradict this conviction or lead to confusion…
[T]he Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons
of the same sex…
The Church does not have the power to
confer its liturgical blessing when that would somehow offer a form of moral
legitimacy to a union that presumes to be a marriage or to an extra-marital
sexual practice.
End
quote. So far so good. Why the controversy, then? And exactly what has changed? To understand that, consider next that the
Declaration holds that what has been said so far cannot be the end of the
story, given the nature of the act of asking for a blessing. It says:
In order to help us understand the
value of a more pastoral approach to blessings, Pope Francis urges us to
contemplate, with an attitude of faith and fatherly mercy, the fact that “when
one asks for a blessing, one is expressing a petition for God’s assistance, a
plea to live better, and confidence in a Father who can help us live
better.” This request should, in every
way, be valued, accompanied, and received with gratitude. People who come spontaneously to ask for a
blessing show by this request their sincere openness to transcendence, the
confidence of their hearts that they do not trust in their own strength alone,
their need for God, and their desire to break out of the narrow confines of
this world, enclosed in its limitations…
When people ask for a blessing, an
exhaustive moral analysis should not be placed as a precondition for conferring
it. For, those seeking a blessing should not be
required to have prior moral perfection…
God never turns away anyone who
approaches him! Ultimately, a blessing
offers people a means to increase their trust in God. The request for a blessing, thus, expresses
and nurtures openness to the transcendence, mercy, and closeness to God in a
thousand concrete circumstances of life, which is no small thing in the world
in which we live. It is a seed of the
Holy Spirit that must be nurtured, not hindered.
End
quote. Let’s leave aside the middle
paragraph, which attacks a straw man. No
one holds that either moral perfection or exhaustive moral analysis ought to be
prerequisites to blessing someone. The key
principle here is that the act of asking for a blessing evinces “a petition for
God’s assistance, a plea to live better, and confidence in a Father who can
help us live better” etc. Again, so far,
so good. I don’t know of anyone who
denies that this is the case, at least in general.
The bad
The problem
comes from the Declaration’s claim that this principle is such an “innovative
contribution to the pastoral meaning of blessings” that it calls for “a real
development from what has been said about blessings in the Magisterium and the
official texts of the Church.” In
particular, claims Fiducia Supplicans,
it entails “the possibility of blessing couples in irregular situations and
same-sex couples.” Later on the
Declaration repeats that what is in view is “the possibility of blessings
for couples in irregular situations and for couples of the same sex.” And again, the Declaration speaks of cases where
a “prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in an irregular situation”
or “the blessing is requested by a same-sex couple,” and where the
request can be granted given that certain conditions are met. (Emphasis added
in each case)
To be sure, Fiducia Supplicans makes clear
qualifications regarding the spirit and manner in which such blessings can be
given. It says that a blessing for such
a couple can be permitted “without officially validating their status or
changing in any way the Church’s perennial teaching on marriage.” It acknowledges that such couples may be in “situations
that are morally unacceptable from an objective point of view.” It envisages cases where such couples, in
requesting a blessing, “do not claim a legitimation of their own status.” And in any event, says the Declaration, in
allowing such a blessing, “there is no intention to legitimize anything.” Moreover, there is no authorization of
anything more than an informal blessing, and it must not be construed as a
blessing on a civil union or a purported marriage. The Declaration says:
The form of [these blessings] should
not be fixed ritually by ecclesial authorities to avoid producing confusion
with the blessing proper to the Sacrament of Marriage…
Precisely to avoid any form of
confusion or scandal, when the prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in
an irregular situation, even though it is expressed outside the rites
prescribed by the liturgical books, this blessing should never be imparted in
concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection
with them. Nor can it be performed with
any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding. The same applies when the blessing is
requested by a same-sex couple.
End
quote. These qualifications reinforce
the Declaration’s insistence that there is no change at the level of doctrine
and thus no approval of any sexually immoral arrangements. What is in view is simply acknowledging that
to ask a blessing involves a recognition of the need for God’s assistance, as
well as a plea “that all that is true, good, and humanly valid in their lives
and their relationships be enriched, healed, and elevated by the presence of
the Holy Spirit,” on the part of those “whose guilt or responsibility may be
attenuated by various factors affecting subjective imputability.” And as far as I have seen, no one has any
quarrel with giving a blessing to any individual
who asks for it in this spirit. Indeed,
the 2021 Vatican statement issued under Cardinal Ladaria explicitly said that
to forbid the blessing of couples “does not preclude the blessings given to individual persons with homosexual
inclinations, who manifest the will to live in fidelity to the revealed plans
of God as proposed by Church teaching” (emphasis added).
What has generated
controversy are the words I have put in bold italics above. Indeed, “controversy” is much too mild a
word. At the time I write this, the
bishops of Poland,
Ukraine,
Nigeria,
Malawi
and Zambia have indicated that they will not implement the
Declaration. Cardinal Ambongo,
Archbishop of Kinshasa, has
called for a united African response to the problematic new
policy. The Declaration has been
criticized by Cardinal
Müller, Archbishop
Chaput, Archbishop
Peta and Bishop Schneider, and the
British Confraternity of Catholic Clergy. Among priests and theologians, criticisms
have been raised by Fr.
Thomas Weinandy, Fr. Dwight
Longenecker, Prof.
Larry Chapp, and others.
The problems
with Fiducia Supplicans can be summed
up in three words: incoherence, abuse, and implicature. Let’s consider
each in turn.
The
incoherence stems from the fact that, as Dan Hitchens has
pointed out at First Things,
the Declaration contradicts the 2021 Vatican document. The contradiction is clear when we compare
the following two statements:
2021: “It is
not licit to impart a blessing on
relationships, or partnerships, even stable, that involve sexual activity
outside of marriage… as is the case of the unions between persons of the same
sex”
2023:
“Within the horizon outlined here appears the possibility of blessings for couples in irregular situations and for
couples of the same sex”
I trust that
the contradiction is obvious to anyone who reads the two statements
dispassionately, but in case it is not, here’s an explanation. A “couple” is just the same thing as two
people in a “relationship” or “partnership.”
“Irregular situations” is a common euphemism in contemporary Catholic
discourse for relationships that involve fornication, an invalid marriage,
same-sex sexual activity, or the like.
The 2021 document clearly peremptorily rules out any blessing for a
couple in this sort of situation, whereas the 2023 document clearly allows it
under certain circumstances. Since
these are contradictory, the new Declaration entails a clear reversal of the
2021 document.
On Twitter, I’ve
seen several odd, tortuous, and utterly unconvincing attempts to get around
this problem. Some say that the new
document authorizes blessing “couples” but not “unions.” The problem, of course, is that the
distinction is merely verbal. Both the
2021 and 2023 documents are addressing romantic relationships. And in that context, to be a “couple” entails
having a “union” of some kind (an emotional bond, going steady, sharing bed and
board, or whatever). To say that one
might bless couples but not unions is like saying that one could bless
bachelors without blessing unmarried men.
What if
“unions” are understood as “civil
unions,” in the legal sense? This does
indeed have a different meaning than “couples,” since not all couples are in
civil unions. But this does not solve
the problem, because the 2021 document rules out blessing any unions of a same-sex or otherwise irregular kind, not merely
civil unions in the legal sense. Indeed,
Fiducia Supplicans is doubly incoherent, because it reiterates the teaching of the 2021
document that “the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions
of persons of the same sex.” This
statement contradicts the statement that couples
can be blessed, because a “couple” and a “union” are the same thing. The new
Declaration thus not only contradicts the 2021 document, it contradicts itself.
Some have
claimed that couples and unions are not
the same thing, on the grounds that “couple” can refer to simply a pair of
individual things, as when one speaks of drinking “a couple of beers” or having
slept for “a couple of hours.” But the
problem is that the context concerns, again, couples in the romantic sense. And a couple in that sense is more than
merely a pair of individuals. It is,
again, a pair who have some emotional bond or the like. It would be absurd to pretend that Fiducia Supplicans is speaking of
“couples” in a thin sense that might include two complete strangers who simply
happen to be standing next to each other as each asks the same priest for a
blessing!
Some have
claimed that Fiducia Supplicans merely
authorizes blessing the individuals
who make up the couple, not the couple itself. But the document explicitly and repeatedly
speaks of blessing couples, not
merely the individuals in the couple.
Moreover, the 2021 document already explicitly said that individuals
could be blessed. So there would be no
need for the new document, and in particular nothing in it that counts as
“innovative” or as “a real development,” without the reference to “couples,”
specifically.
Some have
claimed that there is crucial significance in the phrase “blessing for couples,” as if the “for” somehow
entailed that the couple itself is not being blessed. One problem with this is that we need some
explanation of how a “blessing for couples”
amounts to anything different from “blessing couples.” Another problem is that the Declaration also
does in fact speak of “blessing couples,”
and not merely of “blessings for couples.”
Some have
claimed there is no contradiction between the 2021 and 2023 documents insofar
as one can, they say, bless a “couple” without blessing the “relationship”
between the individuals who make up the couple.
But again, the document speaks of blessing couples, not merely the individuals
in the couple. The blessing is imparted
to a couple qua couple, not merely
qua individuals. That is, as I have
said, why the document can claim to be “innovative” and “a real
development.” But how can one bless a
couple qua couple without blessing
the relationship that makes it the case that they are a couple?
The 2021
document also explicitly says that while individuals
in unions can be blessed, it “declares illicit any form of blessing that tends to acknowledge their unions as such.” But to bless couples qua couples and not
merely qua individuals is precisely “to
acknowledge their unions as such.” So,
even if one could make sense of the idea of blessing a couple without blessing
the relationship, there would still
be a contradiction between the 2021 and 2023 documents. Even acknowledging
the union while blessing it, no less than the blessing itself, is forbidden by
the 2021 document but allowed by the 2023 document.
The bottom
line is that blessing “couples” in the 2023 document amounts to “blessing
people qua in a relationship.” And the
2021 document’s prohibition on blessing “relationships” is obviously just a way
of prohibiting “blessing people qua in a relationship.” The differences in phraseology between the
documents are merely verbal. Perhaps the
new document uses the words it does in the hope
of avoiding a contradiction. The
point, though, is that it does not in
fact avoid a contradiction, given the way terms like “couple,”
“relationship,” and the like are actually used when describing romantic and
sexual situations. Nor are there any
special theological usages in play here, for the relevant terms have none.
So, it is,
in my judgement, sheer sophistry to deny that Fiducia Supplicans permits the blessing of couples in
same-sex and other irregular relationships, and to deny that this contradicts
the 2021 document. On Twitter, Fr. James
Martin triumphantly
declared:
Re: Vatican declaration on same-sex
blessings. Be wary of the "Nothing has changed" response to today's
news. It's a significant change. In short, yesterday, as a priest, I was forbidden
to bless same-sex couples at all. Today, with some limitations, I can.
One can and
should lament that Fr. Martin is
right, but one cannot reasonably deny
it – Fiducia Supplicans does indeed
mark a significant change, and precisely because it permits what was previously
forbidden.
The ugly
Now, Fr.
Martin immediately
went on to bless a same-sex couple in a manner that even some
defenders of Fiducia Supplicans have
said is an abuse of the Declaration.
This brings us to the second problem with the Declaration, which is that
such abuse was inevitable. For, again, the new document makes the
Church’s current policy incoherent. On
the one hand, the Document insists that there is no doctrinal change at all,
and that there is no change entails that the Church can no more acknowledge the
acceptability of same-sex and other irregular “couples” today than it has in
the past. On the other hand, to bless such couples as couples (and not merely as individuals) implies that their being
a couple is in some way acceptable (and not merely that they are accepted as
individuals). It “tends to acknowledge
their unions as such,” which the 2021 document forbade.
Hence, many
are bound to judge that the Church now in some way accepts same-sex and other
irregular “couples” – again, as couples
and not merely as individuals – and will naturally draw the conclusion that she
no longer takes very seriously the immoral sexual behavior that defines such
relationships. To be sure, Fiducia Supplicans explicitly rejects
any approval of such behavior. But that
is bound to be lost on the average man in the pew. If one has to have special theological
expertise even to try to make
coherent sense of Fiducia Supplicans
– and is likely to fail even then – it can hardly be surprising if people draw
from it precisely the heterodox conclusions the document claims to
forestall.
This brings
me to the last problem with the Declaration, which is the implicature it involves. An
implicature is a communicative act which, by virtue of its context or manner,
relays a meaning that goes beyond the literal meaning of the actual words that
may be used. To take an example I’ve
used before, suppose you go out on a blind date and a friend asks
you how it went. You pause and then
answer flatly, with a slight smirk: “Well, I liked the restaurant.” There is nothing in the literal meaning of
this sentence, considered all by itself, that states or implies anything
negative about the person you went out with, or indeed anything at all about
the person. Still, given the context,
you’ve said something insulting. You’ve
“sent the message” that you liked the restaurant but not the person. Or suppose someone shows you a painting he
has just completed, and when asked what you think, you respond: “I like the
frame.” The sentence by itself doesn’t
imply that the painting is bad, but the overall speech act certainly conveys
that message all the same.
In these
cases, the speaker intends the insult, but the implicature can exist even
without the intention. Suppose you said
“Well, I liked the restaurant” or “I like the frame” without wanting to insult anyone, and indeed with the intention of
avoiding the insult that would follow from saying directly what you really
think. You still would have sent an
insulting message, however inadvertently, because these statements would in fact be insulting, given the
context. That you meant no insult is irrelevant. And it would be disingenuous or at least
naïve of you to protest your innocence on the grounds that the literal meaning
of your words is in no way insulting.
For the literal meaning is not all that is relevant to the message sent
by an utterance. Even if you were
innocent of intending to insult, you
are guilty of carelessness or at least naïveté.
Implicatures
have always been important to the Church when evaluating theological
propositions (even if churchmen and theologians don’t usually use the word “implicature,” which is a technical
term from linguistics and philosophy). Even
statements that are not strictly heretical, or even erroneous, have
nevertheless been condemned as problematic in some other way. For example, they might be badly expressed; or ambiguous; or prone to cause
scandal; or “savor of heresy”
even if not being strictly heretical; or “offensive
to pious ears.” These are among the “theological
censures” well-known to Catholic theologians of past generations,
even if they are not always familiar to contemporary writers. A moral or theological proposition whose
literal meaning is not necessarily heretical or even false might still be
“badly expressed” or “prone to cause scandal” or the like insofar as, given the
context in which it is asserted, it involves a heretical or false implicature.
Now, here is
the context relevant to Fiducia
Supplicans: The secular world hates the Church’s teaching on sexual
morality perhaps more than any other of her doctrines. It constantly urges her to abandon it, many
supposing that it is simply a matter of time until she does abandon it. Most churchmen rarely discuss it, and on the occasions
when they do, the tendency is to give a vague and perfunctory acknowledgement
following by an impassioned plea for acceptance of those who do not obey
it. The current pope tends to favor and promote
churchmen who deemphasize traditional teaching on the subject, and strongly to
disfavor churchmen who happen to have a reputation for upholding it. He is also widely perceived as being inclined
to soften Church teaching in other areas.
Those who have most loudly favored the blessing of same-sex and other
“irregular” couples are precisely those who reject the Church’s traditional
teaching on sexual morality, whereas those who have most loudly opposed such
blessings are those most keen to uphold that teaching. Meanwhile, no one could fail to realize in
advance of issuing a document like Fiducia
Supplicans that the qualifications it makes would be known to few who would
hear about it and understood by fewer – that, to most laymen who would learn of
these qualifications, they would sound confusing and legalistic and make far
less of an impression than the new policy itself.
It cannot
reasonably be denied that, given all of this
context, the Declaration has the implicature that the Church is now at
least in part conceding the criticisms of those who reject her teaching, and
that she now in some way approves of certain
same-sex and other “irregular” arrangements (such as those involving
fornication and invalid marriages). It
cannot fail to send that message whether
or not it was the message intended.
And it does so regardless of
all the silly wrangling over the meaning of “couple,” and whether or not one could somehow cobble together a strained reading
that reconciles the new document with the 2021 document. Even if the Declaration is not strictly
heretical, it is manifestly “prone to cause scandal,” “badly expressed,” and “ambiguous.”
It is worth
adding that we are only seeing the beginning of the implications of this
development. There is nothing special
about “couples,” after all. Hence there
is no reason in principle why the logic of the Declaration should rule out
blessings for “throuples” or even larger polyamorous “unions,” or for
organizations like the pro-abortion Catholics for Choice. How could it?
Members of such groups would also claim that there is much “that is
true, good, and humanly valid in their lives and their relationships,” and that
by the very act of asking for a blessing, they are “expressing a petition for
God’s assistance, a plea to live better, and confidence in a Father who can
help us live better.” Why should they be
denied, if same-sex and other “irregular” “couples” are not to be denied?
Cardinal Müller
judges the new Declaration “self-contradictory.” Archbishop Chaput describes it as “doubleminded.” Fr. Weinandy says it “wreaks havoc.” Prof. Chapp pronounces it a “disaster.” Prof. Roberto de Mattei, though a reliably
measured commentator on the controversies surrounding Pope Francis, nevertheless
writes: “It pains me to say, that a very grave sin was committed by those
who promulgated and signed this scandalous statement.” These conclusions all seem to me exactly
right.
It is extremely rare that such things could
justly be said of the highest doctrinal authorities in the Church, but it can
happen when a pope does not speak ex
cathedra, and it is not unprecedented.
The most spectacular case is that of Pope Honorius, whose ambiguous teaching
gave aid and comfort to the Monothelite heresy.
For this he was condemned by three Church councils and by his
successors. Pope St. Leo II declared:
“We anathematize the inventors of the new error… and also Honorius, who did not
attempt to sanctify this Apostolic Church with the teaching of Apostolic
tradition, but by profane treachery permitted its purity to be polluted.” Historian Fr. John Chapman, in his book The Condemnation of Pope Honorius, notes
that “the formula for the oath taken by every new Pope from the 8th century
till the 11th adds these words to the list of Monothelites condemned: ‘Together
with Honorius, who added fuel to their wicked assertions’” (pp. 115-16). I have discussed the case in detail here
and here.
The case of Pope Honorius should be studied carefully by theologians and churchmen – and by Pope Francis especially.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFirst Props to Prof Feser who can disagree with people on many points without being disagreeable.
ReplyDeleteWell as I tried to tell a seemingly former friend of mine who hair trigger blocked me on X and FB for not agreeing with him 100% (when it is more like I am with him 95%) why can't a "couple" refer to simply a pair of individual things/persons who just happen to also be sexually involved in the 2023 declaration? In which case any blessing given to them is a blessing of individuals not their relationship.
The use of "couple" in the 2021 declaration refers to the sinful relationship itself.
They are clearly used the word "couple" differently
because the word does lend itself to these different definitions.
This is obviously deliberate to grant them some air of plausible deniability. This is clearly done to give it a possible orthodox interpretation and a heterodox one.
It is also a batshite idiot idea to do it this way.
Obviously, we can insist on the interpretation the two individuals will get a blessing not their sinful relationship because such a thing cannot in principle be blessed.
We can also accuse Fernandez and the Pope of making it ambiguous to give cover to the Germans rather than come down on them like a ton of bricks like they do Burke or Strickland.
Bishop Munilla has taken it the orthodox way and insists any blessing a gay couple might ask for should be the following.
“Lord, bless your children N. and N. and grant them to continue walking in humility, so that at the same time that they recognize your gifts, they also recognize that their union is not in accordance with your design. Pour out upon them your grace, for them to become coherent in their lives and accept your call to conversion with determination and courage. Amen.”
Other Bishops hold Professor Feser's assertion that this is a contradiction & won't implement it. I don't blame them.
Well when I read ambiguous nonsense in this document we should employ the instruction of Pope Sixtus IV.
"Since, therefore, this holy and praiseworthy desire of Ours cannot be willingly condemned by anyone, neither is the intention and right reason which seeks only an evident good to be attacked for the sake of ambiguity, since, according to the logic of theological doctrine, any proposition which contains in itself a doubtful meaning must always be understood in that sense in which it becomes a true statement."
- Pope Sixtus IV. Romani Pontificis Provida, November 24, 1477.
Cheers.
PS it also seems to me the use of "Development" is a pretense to pretend being kind to gays and blessing them as other sinner is some new thing the Church is now doing. When that is not the case.
So tedious...
Anyway I wish the Pope had not done this.
He needs to go as Pope.
God save him but he needs to go.
Not exactly on-topic, but perhaps a worthwhile diversion. Your uncommon spelling of "batshite" highlights the fact that there are at least three spellings of the word, each associated with one of a set of at least three or four different English-speaking regions:
Delete"Batshit": England (or North America)
"Batshite": Scotland
and
"Batshoit": Ireland
Given your usage, if I had to bet I'd put my money on you being from the same place as me; viz. if not Glasgow, then surrounding areas.
P.S. I'd have tried to guess a variant for Wales too but, to paraphrase Edmund in Black Adder III, you would need half a pint of phlegm in your throat to have a hope of pronouncing it. Poor Wales.
Anonymous 6.31PM
DeleteIn my part of England ( South Yorkshire ), shite seems to be more common than shit now, especially among the young. So much so in fact that the latter has become a 'harder' word. This is just my own perception of things of course.
I would also add I've seen on X many a Protestant who read the actual deceleration text and went forth to say it is not a blessing on gay marriage or approval of a sinful union. I am grateful for their insight and charity.
ReplyDeleteHowever the way this thing has been written ye cannae blame them who thinks it is an authorization to bless homosexuality or that it contradicts earlier rules.
It's not like the blessing of the drug addict. That would be if they blessed the addict AND the needle.
ReplyDeleteI don't see a contradiction here, myself—though not for the reasons apparently bandied on Twitter. Let me explain.
ReplyDeleteIn short: I don’t see any reason why the Church cannot (effectively) /invent/ a new action-type that would be different to, but in some ways like, blessings in the traditional sense and which would correspond to what Müller in his analysis calls type-c “blessings" (https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/muller-fiducia-supplicans-is-self). At least my initial reaction was that this is de facto what FS was doing. (In fact, it seems to suggest (falsely in my view) that they already exist in the wild among the spontaneous actions of priests—but, even if they don’t already exist, by recognizing them as a possibility the document de facto invents them.) There is, then, no contradiction because when the document speaks of the possibility of "blessings," it is in fact talking about a merely homonymous action-type vis-a-vis the action-type at issue in the 2021 note.
I don't think, however, that this in any way undercuts how scandalous the document is. If anything, it allows us to sharpen the point. If what I've said above is right, the problem is not that the document contradicts itself or previous statements, but that, in spite of professing a concern to prevent confusion and scandal (or worse), it practically makes such confusion and scandal /certain/ by calling these action-types blessings and not adequately marking them off from traditional blessings. If the document called them something else instead—say, “schmessings”—and made clear beforehand that a schmessing for X is a prayer of the Church that what is good and God’s will be done with respect to X even if that entails X’s destruction, so that, for instance, the Church is now happy to hand out schmessings to the Nazi party, terrorist organizations, drug cartels, etc., I doubt that anyone would be lining up to ask for them—and that fact alone reveals the extent to which, even though (I think) the document is on paper consistent with Catholic doctrine, the effect is sure to be practically disastrous.
I hesitate to waste a column inch in the combox, but that was an excellent post. Kudos.
DeleteThanks!
DeleteI must admit that, since writing this, my confidence that this is the right reading has taken a hit from the Cardinal's own remarks (https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/cardinal-fernandez-same-sex-blessing):
"It is necessary to distinguish well, and the declaration makes this distinction. Couples are blessed. The union is not blessed, for the reasons that the declaration repeatedly explains about the true meaning of Christian marriage and sexual relations.
For those who read the text serenely and without ideological prejudices, it is clear that there is no change in the doctrine on marriage and on the objective valuation of sexual acts outside the only [kind of] marriage which exists — male-female, exclusive, indissoluble, naturally open to the generation of new life). "
The Cardinal's anxiety to affirm that the union cannot be blessed, only the couple, indicates he still thinks the formal object of the blessing must not be evil. In that case, though, I do find the Declaration to be very misleadingly written. It cites the 2021 note which says the union cannot be blessed because it sinful, then says we need to "develop...a broader understanding of blessings," and (after much intervening material of unclear import) concludes that the couple (which, pace Fernández, is /not/ clearly and explicitly distinguished from a pair in a union) may be blessed. On what I now take to be Fernández's reading, what permits the possibility of the blessing is not that we are talking about a different, and broader, kind of blessing but that the blessing has a different object. In that case, it's unclear in what sense we have a "real development from what has been said about blessings in the Magisterium and the official texts of the Church," as the Declaration announces it is or why we need all the intervening material, if its purpose is not to support the existence of a looser type of "blessing."
The examples given in the same interview by Fernández suggest that he is in fact using "couple" to indicate a pair qua being in some sort of relationship, but not necessarily one of a sexual nature. In short, he seems to be thinking of a blessing of them qua friends or the like. Thus, while it may be true, as Ed and others insist, that what makes a couple is some sort of relationship/union, as Fernández is using "couple" that relationship/union could be a non-sexual one (that may or may not be coinstantiated with a sexual one), whereas, as Fernández is using "union," the couple is in a union only if it is sexual in nature. In that case, the only objection to having blessings for (to use Fernández's technical terms) a couple that is in a union (but not qua in a union) is the contextual objection of the risk of scandal, viz., the risk that it will perceived to be a blessing of the union. This seems to be perfectly coherent, if a somewhat strained use of words.
The text could have been much clearer if we had just been given some simple definitions or glosses on these terms that are evidently being used in a nonstandard way—though that still might not have been enough to prevent the foreseeable scandal with which the text would be taken up.
Finally, I'd just like to express my perplexity that Fernández thinks that the text is /so/ clear that one could only misread it if one were reading it either without due calm or in a spirit of ideological prejudice. I think this is just clearly false. It's true that there do seem to be a lot of willfully bad interpretations out there (from both wings of the Church), but it is also obviously true that the text is underdetermined in some pretty important ways. If the folks at the DDF think that document is clear, they should have run it by an analytic philosopher first.
lmh
Anon, I admit this is a valiant attempt, but I confess that I don't think it can actually succeed. But I am not positive, so let me fill in some details:
DeleteI will freely grant that a priest can bless 2 (or more) friends (let's assume he doesn't know who they are) who present themselves as merely "friends", or as friends-and-some-other-factor, for a blessing. Suppose 2 (or more) males come to a priest after mass as they are leaving the church and say "we are friends who are on pilgrimage together, headed for Rome..." A priest can bless them as friends on pilgrimage without any further questions and without demurral.
The trouble (as is the Devil) is in the details: the "presented as" consists of ALL of the facts and circumstances of the request. For example:
(1) They request after mass, i.e. after they have assisted in the holy sacrifice of the mass, so they have already a relationship to the Church;
(2) They request after mass, implying they are seeking an entirely informal blessing on the spot, not some formal EVENT (tm).
(3) They don't make any implications about their friendship other than that it was the basis of their going on a pilgrimage together. That basis is a wholesome one and a priest may reasonably assume that licit basis extends to all other aspects of the friendship.
(4) They have not expressed in the request for blessing that it is on account of some other fact, feature, detail, or relation that would imply any positive or negative considerations.
Far otherwise would be 2 or more male friends who present a request for a blessing on account of "we are on our way to join a [universally known to be heretical] sect's monastery", or "we are founding a free abortion clinic for poor women" or "we are celebrating our 10th anniversary of taking a different woman to bed every week". None of these have to do with the 2 men's sexual relationship with each other, but all 3 "reasons" have to do with their presenting an evil as if it were something in virtue of which a blessing would be suitable.
Or 2 men who make an hour's appointment with the pastor to discuss a blessing to occur on a specified date, with a number of other attendants present, etc. The priest could not possibly agree to such a request without at a minimum asking for more information, so as to rule out that the blessing would appear to celebrate a gay union, even if the 2 men never say "we're gay" or ask to repeat any vows or like simulacrum of a wedding. Prof. Feser's comments about implicature apply, and giving scandal is something a priest must take positive steps to avoid IN LIKELY CONDITIONS. And those are likely conditions.
If the priest is being asked to informally bless, individually, each person, that's already allowed. If he is asked to bless them as (in any sense) united to make a "them", then that in virtue of which they are united (rather than individuals) and being blessed together must be either morally good or morally neutral in all respects insofar as presented, not just in some respect or other. And "known" here takes all factors of knowledge to the priest and other reasonable observers into account, even (socially) probable factors, not just those attested or proven.
And how likely is it that a gay pair will accept a blessing under circumstances in which every detail that could urge all onlookers to recognize them as a gay couple is hidden from sight and sound, so that the blessing of "them" appears to be in virtue of something else entirely?
So, I suggest that if even one aspect of the "them" on account of which the blessing is requested for them-together is inherently disordered (and known), that makes a blessing inappropriate because such blessing inherently appears to approve of the that-in-virtue-of-which, the blessing is requested for them-together, in its entirety, not just one aspect of it.
To add to the litany of tortured interpretations of words, I've seen a brand of responses which go something to the effect of: "Of course you can bless a couple without blessing their union, because those in same-sex relationships don't actually have a real union (i.e. genuine marriage), but they are still a couple."
ReplyDeleteOf course, this is a much more stringent usage of the word "union" than appears in the document, and it would actually render the entire (supposed) rationale for said document pointless. One could simply say, on this reading, that priests cannot bless unions of those in irregular situations simply because there is no union there to bless. But then why would anyone (in this case, Fernandez, et al.) need to distinguish between blessing the couple and blessing the union if there isn't even a union at all? As Ed says, it is clear fiducia supplicans means basically "romantic relationship" when discussion of union comes up. And this is the root of the entire problem: It is the relationship each member shares in which makes the couple a couple to begin with.
Most Catholics contracept and divorce like everyone else. So why should they care about same sex blessings? It's a different world now.
ReplyDeleteThey should care because the Church never permitted contraception and divorce. So the evil in these deviations doesn't come from the Church. But the Gay blessings are come from the Church and are a form of legitimized blasphemy.
DeleteSon of Yachov here. I switched computers.
ReplyDelete"Even if the Declaration is not strictly heretical, it is manifestly “prone to cause scandal,” “badly expressed,” and “ambiguous.”
Correct.
Dr. Feser I here by award you Winner of the Internet by mae authority granted unto me as a Scottish Lard according to a document my brother bought for me online that make me one or something.
Alba Gu Brah.
A scandalous document. But our wobbly Pope has done it again, confounding those who still teach that there have been heretical Popes in the past, or will ever be (as Vatican I says is impossible). Scandalous, leaning towers of Pisa, stupid, favouring heresy, running after worldly ideologies, the Popes have done it all. Not one has renounced Christ and his Church. Those lusting after a Catholic Church divided into conflicting self-referring episcopal jurisdictions, like the Orthodox, Conciliarists, and Gallicans, instead of licking their lips at every stumbling of the post-Vatican II Church, should pray for a good Pope. A good Pope will revisit the texts as well as the spirit of Vatican II; that is where all this has come from!
ReplyDeleteThis missive is anonymous because I don’t know how to use the comment section. Call me Hopeful.
ReplyDeleteIn the face of friends who claim that Francis is a heretic, I have clung to my judgment that he is attempting to rouse his Episcopal brethren from what he regards as their evangelical torpor. He adopts a style which he believes is Ignatiun but continually undermines it with a liberal sprinkling of the incendiary like comments of St Peter.
His latest offering is a masterpiece of manipulation. I believe that the effect on the Church, Bishops, Priests and Laity by the content of Humanae Vitae, is Kindergarten stuff, compared with the soon to come market place brawl between the Orthodox and Heretical in the Body of Christ.
I further believe that Francis is hanging his Pontifical hat on his notion, that the ensuing tumult will be resolved by the prompting of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
I was happy to see this (below) because the question that I've been asking repeatedly on various groups and not getting much uptake on is, “what is a blessing, anyway?”.
ReplyDeleteWell it turns out that in the Greek Catholic Rite (Ukrainian), they’ve determined two things:
~Blessings are never unconnected to a Rite, in the Ukrainian Rite
~Mercifully, Fiducia Supplicans only applies to the Latin Rite anyway.
~So they ain't doing it.
https://onepeterfive.com/patriarch-sviatoslav-fiducia-supplicans-has-no-legal-status-in-ugcc/~
As i all things people can act with good motives or with bad. To say that all who ask for a blessing have good motives is naive at best and at worst a cover-up for a lie. Many same sex couples are looking for traditional authorities to affirm their relationship as natural and good. It should not be assumed then that same sex couples are looking for anything else than the Church to affirm their sinful relationship.
ReplyDeleteSo if I am living with another man's wife, I can ask a priest to bless our "irregular union?" That is sacrilegious.
ReplyDeleteNo, you can ask a priest to bless you both together to come closer in union to God. Likely God’s grace would have an effect of bringing them both more out of their sin than when they walked in. Turning from sin always starts with knowing you are loved by God… nothing has changed here. The priest then should decided whether to do it or not based on his discretion. Read the document.
DeleteExcept that doesn't logically follow at all since the document is not about the blessing of unions.
DeleteIt is wonderful that the RCC has finally recognised gay and other 'irregular' unions and will now bless them. Hopefuly, all the reactionary die-hards who are getting upset about this will either leave the church or be excommunicated. Let us look foreward to schism, with a large progressive faction finally jettisoning the muck of the past. May the successor to Francus be in his mould.
ReplyDeleteEd writes: 'Some say that the new document authorizes blessing “couples” but not “unions.” The problem, of course, is that the distinction is merely verbal...To say that one might bless couples but not unions is like saying that one could bless bachelors without blessing unmarried men'......'a “couple” and a “union” are the same thing.'
ReplyDeleteEd, your customary logical precision goes out the window here. Couples are substances, unions are accidents. So the distinction between them cannot be 'merely verbal', and they cannot be 'the same thing'. (Otherwise it would be goodbye to the dogma of transubstantiation.)
Consider the parallel: 'Catholics say, "We love the sinner but hate the sin".' We can imagine the objection - 'The distinction is merely verbal. If someone is a sinner, that entails that there is a sin. A sinner and his sin are the same thing. To say we should love the sinner (or that we may bless the sinner) is to say we should love them qua sinner - which is to love their sin. Incoherent!'
Or maybe some more careful analysis is needed.
'The new Declaration thus not only contradicts the 2021 document, it contradicts itself.'
The 'principle of charity', rightly invoked in other blog posts here, suggests that if we think there is an open self-contradiction in a text, just possibly we have misinterpreted. The explicit reaffirmation of the 2021 statement means we absolutely must interpret the 2023 in harmony with the 2021 statement, if that is at all possible.
And it is quite possible. One of the keys is the substance-accident distinction. There is no more to an accident than the accident itself, whereas a substance has much more to it than one of the accidents in terms of which it might be described. There is more to a sinner than his sin, and there is more to a 'couple' (and even to their 'relationship') than their sexual activity.
I make no comment here on the prudence of Fiducia Supplicans, but I don't think it is so obviously incoherent as stated (or even particularly ambiguous, given the repeated reaffirmations of Church doctrine on sexual morality that you quote, as clear as any I can recall from the Francis era).
Ed, your customary logical precision goes out the window here. Couples are substances, unions are accidents. So the distinction between them cannot be 'merely verbal', and they cannot be 'the same thing'. (Otherwise it would be goodbye to the dogma of transubstantiation.)
DeleteI might be missing out on some metaphor here, but the only way I can see couples being substances is if by that we mean each member or element of a couple, (i.e. each distinct person) is a substance. This is true, but then we are talking about the members of the couple rather than the couple (or coupling, if you'd prefer) as such. Ed is concerned precisely with the couple as couple, however, so if we look at it in those terms, then "couple" is clearly an accidental relation, just as would be the case with "union."
The 'principle of charity', rightly invoked in other blog posts here, suggests that if we think there is an open self-contradiction in a text, just possibly we have misinterpreted. The explicit reaffirmation of the 2021 statement means we absolutely must interpret the 2023 in harmony with the 2021 statement, if that is at all possible.
The principle of charity merely affirms that if there is a coherent reading of the text that is plausible, it is to be preferred over other plausible readings which are not coherent, all things being more-or-less equal. So it all hinges on the plausibility of the reading, which is precisely what is under discussion.
And it is quite possible. One of the keys is the substance-accident distinction. There is no more to an accident than the accident itself, whereas a substance has much more to it than one of the accidents in terms of which it might be described. There is more to a sinner than his sin, and there is more to a 'couple' (and even to their 'relationship') than their sexual activity.
This doesn't work for two reasons:
1. As described above, couples (qua couples) are not substances. If they were, the individuals in them would literally lose their substantial identity.
2. We can agree that there is "more to" a couple than their sexual activity and still hold that their romantic relationship (of which their sexual activity is an important element) is precisely what defines them as "a couple" rather than some other identifying feature. But since it is the romantic relationship that Fernandez, et al. are saying we should not be blessing, it follows that we cannot bless the couple without blessing the relationship (since, again, the relationship is precisely the feature that makes them a couple rather than, say, roommates).
As you can see, this will go over the head of the average laymen.
DeleteIt will be especially bad for those who are already trying to rationalize their irregular status
"I might be missing out on some metaphor here, but the only way I can see couples being substances is if by that we mean each member or element of a couple, (i.e. each distinct person) is a substance. "
DeleteI am not sure I can see it either, unless ...
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
"Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. "
When Frick sodomizes Frack, do they become one flesh too? Perhaps some Jesuit would know.
@ccmnxc: The idea that a couple might literally be one single substance is so bizarre that it didn't occur to me to exclude that interpretation by more precise language.
DeleteSo yes, the actual substances are the individual members. My point is not the number of substances involved, but the simple fact that in speaking of couples rather than unions, we are in the category of substance, not accident, whether we are talking about one or many substances.
'Couple' is shorthand for 'two people, romantically linked'. People are substances. Their union is not a substance. Their twoness is not a substance. We cannot replace 'union' by 'couple' in a sentence wherever we find it, and neither can we replace 'two' or 'twoness' by 'couple'.
Substances exist in themselves, accidents exist 'in-another' - so my point is that we therefore deal with the concepts in logically different ways .
That means in the first place that, as I said, Ed was not precise in completely equating 'couples' and 'unions' (which complete equation was necessary for the conclusiveness of his arguments). However, that this is more than a trivial imprecision is argued in my second-last paragraph, from which you quote: 'There is no more to an accident than the accident itself, whereas a substance has much more to it than one of the accidents in terms of which it might be described.'
Yes, I agree that a couple in an illicit sexual relationship is defined as 'a couple' in reference to that illicit relationship - just like a 'sinner' is defined as such in reference to his sin.
You don't pick up on my parallel with 'Love the sinner, hate the sin.' Is that also to be considered an incorrect way of speaking, if blessing couples necessarily means blessing their union? Does loving a sinner necessarily mean loving his sin?
You write: 'We cannot bless the couple without blessing the relationship (since, again, the relationship is precisely the feature that makes them a couple rather than, say, roommates).'
Parallel: 'We cannot love the sinner without loving the sin (since the sin is precisely the feature that makes him a sinner).'
@Tim the White: I agree that all this would go over the heads of many (especially if argued in 'substance' and 'accident' terminology - which, however, I assumed were common enough currency here). However, that is a matter of prudential assessment of the likely effects of the document, which I explicitly bracket. I don't think it is helpful to blur the question of the truth of this (or any) document with the question of its prudence.
"To say we should love the sinner (or that we may bless the sinner) is to say we should love them qua sinner - which is to love their sin."
Delete"We cannot love the sinner without loving the sin (since the sin is precisely the feature that makes him a sinner)."
Actually, to love the sinner is to will his good, especially his highest good, that is, union with God. Because sin, which is contrary to God's will harms one's relationship with God (and in this case with others, especially the partner), and grave sin does so mortally, then to will the good of a sinner is to will his repentance, his repudiation of that which separates him from God. In that context, the blessing of sinners has always been available, since the sinner who wishes to be free of sin asks for a blessing so that God will give him the grace to repent and be converted. In fact, the Sacrament of Confession begins usually begins with he penitent saying "Bless me father for I have sinned... these are my sins...".
The document/declaration on blessings in the "irregular" relationships could be beneficial IMO if it included a stipulation such as the following: for any persons in an "irregular" relationship coming for a blessing as a couple, the blessing must include the instruction that sexual activity outside of traditional marriage is immoral, that it must be abandoned, and that any intention to continue in such "irregular" relationship would vitiate and therefore preclude the necessary condition to receive a blessing which by nature requires the right intention of those asking for such, that is, an intention to repent and stop sinning. But then the declaration would really only be reaffirming traditional Catholic teaching on faith and morals, and its only novelty would be in witnessing to our modern culture that sex outside of marriage in any context is immoral, including and highlighting relationships between same sex members which modern society trumpets as a good in itself.
So it seems to me anyway.
Ben,
DeleteI'm glad we're on the same page regarding the members of the couple being the substances, but I don't see how this can avoid giving the game away. More below.
So yes, the actual substances are the individual members. My point is not the number of substances involved, but the simple fact that in speaking of couples rather than unions, we are in the category of substance, not accident, whether we are talking about one or many substances.
'Couple' is shorthand for 'two people, romantically linked'. People are substances. Their union is not a substance. Their twoness is not a substance. We cannot replace 'union' by 'couple' in a sentence wherever we find it, and neither can we replace 'two' or 'twoness' by 'couple'.
I don't have any particularly serious reservations about your definition of a couple, but I think it helps illustrate what my problem is. What constitutes being "a couple" seems to involve at least three elements:
(1) Person A
(2) Person B
(3) The romantic link between them
Ed's point (and mine) is that (3), the romantic link, is an essential feature of what it is to be a couple. So when you bless the couple, you cannot fail to bless the romantic link (i.e. the "union" that is relevant here). This is why I pushed back against the notion that "couple" is functioning as a substance here. Person A and Person B are substances, but the romantic link between them isn't. We would have to revise the above definition of "couple" to somehow exclude element (3), but at that point, it makes no sense to speak of them as a couple in the context that is at play in this document.
Substances exist in themselves, accidents exist 'in-another' - so my point is that we therefore deal with the concepts in logically different ways .
DeleteThat means in the first place that, as I said, Ed was not precise in completely equating 'couples' and 'unions' (which complete equation was necessary for the conclusiveness of his arguments). However, that this is more than a trivial imprecision is argued in my second-last paragraph, from which you quote: 'There is no more to an accident than the accident itself, whereas a substance has much more to it than one of the accidents in terms of which it might be described.'
I think this comment gets to one of the fundamental issues in this discussion, namely your contention that "complete equation was necessary for the conclusiveness of his arguments". If what you say here is true, then yes, Ed's argument suffers from some pretty serious issues and falls prey to the analogy you are drawing with the sin and the sinner. But in point of fact, Ed is not equating "couples" and "unions" as if they are logically identical. The relationship he is setting up is not one of logical identity but rather of logical entailment. And these are not the same. Consider the following example:
- The conjunction of propositions A, B, and C can be denoted as (A⋅B⋅C).
- (A⋅B⋅C) is logically equivalent only to itself and its permutations (B⋅C⋅A), (C⋅B⋅A), etc.
- However, (A⋅B⋅C) logically entails not only what it is logically equivalent to but also to its own subsets. Thus it entails, for example, C by itself and A by itself. It entails (A⋅B) or (A⋅C), and so on.
Thus, we have statements which are entailed by the original conjunction but are not equivalent to it.
Now apply this to the above definition of couple you gave. If the definition of "couple" given above contains the elements (1) Person A, (2) Person B, and (3) the romantic link, then the definition of "couple" logically entails that third element considered on its own: the romantic link between them. "Couple" is neither reducible to nor equivalent with (3) alone, but the former does entail the latter. And that is all Ed needs to get his argument off the ground. To bless the couple entails blessing the romantic link/union.
You don't pick up on my parallel with 'Love the sinner, hate the sin.' Is that also to be considered an incorrect way of speaking, if blessing couples necessarily means blessing their union? Does loving a sinner necessarily mean loving his sin?
You write: 'We cannot bless the couple without blessing the relationship (since, again, the relationship is precisely the feature that makes them a couple rather than, say, roommates).'
Parallel: 'We cannot love the sinner without loving the sin (since the sin is precisely the feature that makes him a sinner).'
We don't love the sinner qua sinner. We love him or her as a person. But since having sin is not an essential feature of being a person, we can indeed love the person without loving the sin. So the analogy here breaks down at two points:
1. The document speaks (at least ostensibly) of blessing the couple as a couple. But we would not say we love the sinner as (or with respect to) his or her sin.
2. Since we love them, not as considering their sin but as considering the fact that they are a person, the distinction between accidental and essential features comes into play. Sin is not an essential feature of being a person (otherwise, at least on Catholic doctrine, the Persons of the Trinity, Mary, etc., would not be persons). However, there being a romantic link is most definitely an essential feature of them being a "couple."
Hence, while you can love a sinner without loving their sin, you cannot bless a couple without blessing the essential element of the relationship between them.
For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept."
DeleteDivorce was allowed by god for Jews, to accommodate the hardness of their hearts.
But then Jesus came to Earth with a new message of love for all.
Thus, divorce was no longer allowed, because god changed his directives to the Jews.
Divorce is unloving, and would thus no longer be allowed a precept.
OP
"2021: “It is not licit to impart a blessing on relationships, or partnerships, even stable, that involve sexual activity outside of marriage… as is the case of the unions between persons of the same sex”
2023: “Within the horizon outlined here appears the possibility of blessings for couples in irregular situations and for couples of the same sex”"
Apparently the successor to St. Peter, the one man given authority to interpret scripture and deliver the message of god, the one who has authority passed in this way:
Jesus -> Peter -> Francis
Francis continues to deliver the message of love to you.
How fortunate you are to live during this time of divine revelation from Jesus through the Bishop of Rome.
To accommodate the hardness of hearts blessings were denied in 2021.
But now Jesus has chosen Francis to deliver his new message of love, to bless all those god loves, and god loves all, being of infinite capacity to love. God loves even the prostitutes and tax collectors, and is teaching you to aspire to such great love.
How lucky you are to be a living witness to this great elimination of past hardness.
Stardusty, I thought you were an atheist?
Deleteccmnxc,
DeleteI don't think your discussion of 'propositions A, B and C' advances the argument. I agree that 'being a couple' entails the existence of a romantic relationship between the two; but by the same token, 'being a sinner' entails the existence of a sin.
If the former entailment is enough to save Ed's argument that blessing a couple must include blessing their union / romantic relationship, then the latter entailment would show that loving / blessing a sinner necessarily included loving / blessing his or her sin.
You write: 'Since having sin is not an essential feature of being a person, we can indeed love the person without loving the sin…However, there being a romantic link is most definitely an essential feature of them being a "couple."'
However, sin is an essential feature of 'being a sinner'. 'Sinners' and 'couples' are not natural substances, so we can either go back to the natural substances present - human persons - and agree that neither sin nor illicit union are essential to those persons; or we can focus instead on the accidents highlighted by describing the persons as ‘sinners’ and ‘couples’, and agree that for as long as those persons remain sinners / couples, there must be sin / illicit union.
You write: 'The document speaks (at least ostensibly) of blessing the couple as a couple.'
That is interpretation - the phrase 'as a couple' doesn't appear in the document, and I'm not aware that any equivalent phrase appears either.
When people say, 'Love the sinner, hate the sin', they never (of course) actually specify in so many words that we are not to love the sinner 'as a sinner' (i.e. in respect of his or her sin, willing the sinfulness to continue in existence). It is just assumed (correctly) by common sense that we are to love the sinner 'as a person' - meaning that we are to will his or her true good, as John says, which includes the removal of the sin.
So in the absence of phrases such as 'as a sinner' / 'as a person' / 'as a couple', the correct interpretation is not automatically established one way or the other.
Since Ed is the one trying to prove a contradiction within the document, the onus of proof is on him to show that 'blessing a couple' must be interpreted as 'blessing the couple as a couple'. 'As a couple' cannot simply be assumed as the default interpretation - just as the default interpretation of 'Love the sinner, hate the sin' cannot be assumed to be 'Love the sinner as a sinner, hate the sin.'
So the text of Fiducia Supplicans is, at the least, open to the interpretation that the priest is not to bless the couple in respect of their union, but to bless them as persons.
And having established the possibility of that benign interpretation, it is furthermore forced upon us by the fact that the text elsewhere clearly and explicitly excludes blessing the union as such.
To introduce a final factor - the couple who request the blessing could also legitimately be blessed in respect of aspects of their relationship that are morally good or neutral.
Those aspects might include their mutual assistance (cf. FS 38); the raising of the children (for opposite sex partners) they have already had together; or their strong good-will for each other. (If romantic partners each have passionate good-will for the other - love in the true sense - is that morally bad, even if it originally arose in the context of their illicit sexual relationship? If the mutual assistance and good-will that are part of their relationship are genuinely blessed and increased, that will actually tend towards the cessation of their illicit sexual relations, since these latter inflict wounds on genuine love.)
Again, not discussing here whether it is prudent to have blessings about this sort of thing - only proposing that it is not logically incoherent.
John,
DeleteI'd agree with a lot of what you're saying.
But just commenting on your statement, 'any intention to continue in such "irregular" relationship would vitiate and therefore preclude the necessary condition to receive a blessing which by nature requires the right intention of those asking for such, that is, an intention to repent and stop sinning.'
While for optimal reception of divine blessing, the couple must repent, I don't think it's the case that unrepentant sinners cannot receive God's blessing at all.
God can give them temporal blessings (and in his mercy, may well do so, if it will help their salvation); but also spiritual blessings that prepare the way for their final repentance.
Just because they lack the 'right intention' of repenting some specific sin doesn't mean that they can have no rightness of intention at all about other matters.
The Church teaches that not every action of someone in a state of sin is necessarily another sin - there can still be good actions, moving in the right direction, albeit still lacking the crowning perfection of saving supernatural charity. (cf. Clement XI's condemnation of Jansenist errors Unigenitus (1713))
Fiducia Supplicans also speaks of those who, although in situations 'that are morally unacceptable from an objective point of view' might not committing mortal sin because of lack of full knowledge or fully free consent: 'those whose guilt or responsibility may be attenuated by various factors affecting subjective imputability.' (26)
There is a lot of blameless moral ignorance in the world. Such people could even already be in the state of grace, and therefore all the more open to receive divine blessings (such as moving in the direction of also being delivered from their spiritually damaging relationship, did they but know it, objectively opposed to God's law).
doc,
Delete"Stardusty, I thought you were an atheist?"
But I am correct about the reference to divorce regarding the hardness of hearts. DNW seems too dull to realize that in his diffuse pointless ramblings.
My greater point is the Dr. Feser does not seem to keep in mind the core principle of apostolic succession. Francis is not just some guy, rather, Francis is the living embodiment of an unbroken chain of doctrinal authority that begins clearly with Jesus, then to Peter, and on to Francis. This is by the doctrine of the Catholic church.
Dr. Feser seems to be a sort of smorgasbord or buffet Catholic, picking and choosing. Well, fine, up to him how he wants to accept or reject Catholic principles.
Francis seems to be one of the few Christians who has some idea of the central message from Jesus, love.
Chomsky famously said that if you do not believe in freedom of expression for those you despise you don't believe in it at all.
Jesus said the same sort of thing about love. He told you to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. If you love only those who love you how admirable is that since even the tax collectors do that?
Francis has identified the USA for its "reactionaries". As I have already suggested to him, it may well be that Francis is explicitly referring to Dr. Feser among others.
For all the historical problems and ongoing bizarre doctrines of the Catholic church there is an advantage to the doctrine of Apostolic succession.
The Pope can change his mind and then go back to being infallible again.
As awkward and clumsy and ponderous and slow as it is, at least the gradual changing of minds has a mechanism such that the RCC now generally accepts the scientific view of nature, and has relegated god to that ever receding corner of scientific ignorance.
At least that is some practical advantage as compared to modern day sola scriptura protestant kooks who actively undermine scientific education because it conflicts with their literal reading of the fairy tale bible.
So, as past popes have given way to the science of evolution and cosmology and biology Francis now seems to be guiding the "reactionary" Americans toward the central theme of the teaching of Jesus:
Love for all, most especially for the prostitutes and the tax collectors, as you pray for those who persecute you.
Do you love those who you consider to be perverts and whores? Do you pray for those who persecute you?
Francis is like the Supreme Court telling you which amendment takes precedence. In a complex document expressions of right and wrong come into conflict.
When does one principle become more important when it comes into conflict with another principle? Who is to decide?
In the USA the Supreme Court decides which clause of which article takes precedence.
In the Catholic church the Bishop of Rome decides.
This Bishop of Rome has decided that the admonitions of Jesus to love even your enemies is of paramount importance.
Listen up, American "reactionaries", the Bishop of Rome is issuing declarations under the direct line of authority of Jesus Christ, because he alone has been entrusted and empowered to "See" what you cannot.
" DrYogamiDecember 25, 2023 at 11:02 AM
DeleteStardusty, I thought you were an atheist?"
As this matter touches on public square debate methods I'll have something to say on it; using your comment as a launching point, before responding more briefly elsewhere to yet another Anonymous who has popped up
again to address me personally.
Well, as you probably already know, it is just a rhetorical gambit: A polemicist's hopeful version of Rules for Radicals, # 4. Only with the variation that he calls the version and interpretation of the tune to which you are expected to dance.
He need not believe in it any more than the Stalinist collectivist scum of the 1940's needed believe in the core principle of the U. S. Constitution's 5th Amendment in order to try and leverage it against proponents of constitutional government and the regime of liberty.
This runs parallel in concept as obverse and reverse, to the present day defund the police advocates who fall victims to their own redounding policies when they are carjacked or assaulted on the street by their own human pets and constituents.
In addition it provides him an opportunity to rub sensitive Catholics' noses in their views on papal authority.
It's all to be expected.
I agree that there is a lot of moral ignorance in the world. I would temper the "blameless" qualifier you added to that, with the following:
Delete(1) While there are probably some practicing gay couples (in the US) who have no idea what the Catholic Church says about gay sex acts being disordered, (a) there are so many gays who despise the Church because of that position that it is probably only a minority, (I would guess a small minority) who don't know THAT the Church condemns such acts. There is rampant negative commentary within gay communities toward the Church, so generally they would be aware that other gays have some animus toward the Church for some reason or other, at a minimum.
(b) If a gay couple claims and intends to be Catholic and seeks to pursue a relationship with the Church, that number probably drops to a vanishing small percentage. It is hard to long be around the Church without at least hearing about the general position of the Church.
(c) Those gays who even minimally hear that the Church "has some negative stance" about gay sex acts, and who want to be Catholic, have an obligation to follow up any rumors / incomplete comments to discover what it is the Church says that is negative about gay sex. So, being ignorant is not the same as being blamelessly ignorant: some (many?) don't find out more because they don't want to find out the details.
(d) There is a high likelihood that gays who want to go on practicing gay sex and who want to be Catholic (however opposed those are in reality) do not understand why the Church says gay sex is inherently disordered. Indeed, most probably have no understanding of the mere category of "inherently disordered", much less understand why gay sex is in the class. This does not overcome the fact that they (often) understand THAT the Church has condemned the acts as being gravely disordered, and this knowledge by itself can be sufficient to make them culpably ignorant if they persist in their actions and in not trying to come to an understanding of the Church's teaching.
I do not intend to say any person other than the priest to whom the individual is confessing has a right to judge that person is culpably sinning, not at all. But that aside, we can plausibly judge social conditions to be such that there is very likely a great deal of culpable ignorance, and widespread social conditions often influence whether an action or policy is prudent.
To introduce a final factor - the couple who request the blessing could also legitimately be blessed in respect of aspects of their relationship that are morally good or neutral.
DeleteYes: if (and only if) they are presented as a joined unit FOR blessing wholly independently of their also condition of grave sin. Two guys might receive a blessing as a unit together if they constitute a cliff-climbing pair who are setting out to rescue a stuck child. Their additional fact that they are a gay romantic couple need not enter into the condition that they receive the blessing as a cliff-climbing team.
But if their beingness as a unit together to be blessed as a single "them" includes their gay relationship, then no, it seems to me that the fact that there are other (good or neutral) aspects also under consideration doesn't save the blessing from being something that actually gives (some) approval to the gay relationship.
This gets to the fact that generally speaking, a person doesn't ask for a blessing for no particular reason at all, just because, generally they ask for a blessing on account of something specific to their situation: precarious health, undertaking a difficult task, under unusual temptations, celebrating a milestone, etc. In these cases, there are always the primary aspect of the on account of which they ask for a blessing, but often there are also implicit or secondary aspects of the reason as well. The implicit or secondary aspects are not discounted merely because they are not the primary reason as such. A couple celebrating their 5th anniversary together would express their primary reason as "5 years together" but the fact that they are together in an adulterous relationship cannot but be an implicit aspect of the "reason". Analogous implications apply also for natural and necessary consequences of "the reason".
Consequently, prudence requires that the priest take care for the primary and other aspects of that on account of which the blessing is asked for the two qua together rather than for each one: it is not a matter of mere wish as to what the blessing implies as to approval or at least acceptance from the Church, i.e. it cannot be merely by preference that the blessing only pertain with respect to the couple "being together for 5 years" and not anything else. Social connectedness (and scandal) don't work that way. Actions have implications beyond the facial aspect, whether you want them to or not.
This does mean that (guided by prudence) a couple could be blessed on account of some other reality than their gay relationship. But this was understood as true before, so it doesn't represent a development.
"As this matter touches on public square debate methods I'll have something to say on it;"
DeleteOh how wonderful, I cannot wait for yet another pointless diffuse screed.
"the present day defund the police advocates who fall victims to their own redounding policies"
Ha Ha Ha. Defund the police. Sure, as long as you are rambling on baselessly you might as well throw in Stalinists and collectivists and defund the police-ists.
"In addition it provides him an opportunity to rub sensitive Catholics' noses in their views on papal authority."
What's the matter, snowflake, papal authority a bit of a sore subject for you in a column about a papal statement?
"It's all to be expected."
Well, at least you anticipate having your butthurt screeds called out.
But this is not really so very complicated.
Catholicism is a theistic superstition to be sure, but it also includes a long tradition of millions of words of attempts at rational analytic philosophy.
Eventually the church retreats from the more inane assertions of biblical literalism, to concentrate on moral and spiritual assertions.
Clearly the present Bishop of Rome finds the admonitions of Jesus to love sinners, enemies, and those who persecute you to be of paramount controlling authority.
American "reactionaries" who cling to their hateful ways are being called out by none other than the present successor to St. Peter.
If you don't like a guy who accepts the scientific view of cosmology and evolution, plus shows love and compassion for gay people then you might want to consider converting to being a protestant.
Thanks Tony - there's some food for thought in what you say. It might indeed be comparatively rare for an 'irregular' couple asking for a blessing to be able to prudently be given that blessing.
DeleteJust a few points in the other direction -
Ignorance concerning the sinfulness of homosexual acts is not just because of ignorance of what the Church teaches. There is also widespread ignorance of the fact that we are obliged to follow the Church's teaching, because of its divine commissioning and guidance.
Relatively blameless ignorance of this exists, obviously, among many non-Catholics (whom I was including in 'the world', and who might even ask for a priest's blessing sometime).
But it also can exist among Catholics who have received little catechesis or deformed catechesis, and who may just assume that 'believing and following all the teachings' is 'something their grandparents did' - of a bygone era; or something for fanatics and fundamentalists. They may have no idea about history, no idea that there is any reason for believing the Catholic Church's teachings over those of any other community, apart from the fact that 'this was the one they happened to be baptized in'. Shallow enough, indeed - but not necessarily gravely culpable.
Many people probably imagine that the motivation behind the Church's teaching on homosexuality is simply something like, 'It says so in Leviticus', combined with 'mindless homophobic prejudices' of old-fashioned people. They have no conception of theology and philosophy, or of what those fields of study might contain; and so have no real idea that there might exist deeper reasons to be sought out.
I wrote: The couple who request the blessing could also legitimately be blessed in respect of aspects of their relationship that are morally good or neutral; Tony, you responded: Yes: if (and only if) they are presented as a joined unit FOR blessing wholly independently of their also condition of grave sin.
DeleteThere is the object of the blessing - what it is that is being blessed, including under what specific aspect Under that aspect it is affirmed, and prayed to be increased and prospered by God. So I agree that this object, including what it is that joins them as 'one object' of blessing (friendship or whatever), must not formally include sin. And OK, Fiducia Supplicans maybe does not really develop our understanding of this beyond what we already knew and did.
However, as well as the object, there is the motive of the blessing; and part of the legitimate motive of the blessing - on the priest's part, and hopefully even on the couple's part - may well be the very fact that they are a couple in a sinful situation, and so in particular need of divine help. The couple might, for example, have something of the attitude of St Augustine before his conversion, 'Give me chastity and continence, but not yet.' Not all active homosexuals are militant gay activists, obviously - some are already on the path to conversion. The final moment of forgiveness and reception of justifying grace is instantaneous, but there is a gradual process leading up to that, which the Church must foster. So the priest blesses the good aspects, in view of (among other things) the hoped-for conversion.
Also, some of the sin-free aspects of a couple's relationship might have been partly caused or occasioned by their sinful union – e.g. the raising of their children, the development of strong mutual good will. In this case there is a material connection, but not a formal connection, between the object of blessing and the sin.
So for these reasons (motive and material connection), the fact that they are a couple in a sinful union is not completely irrelevant to a (possibly legitimate) blessing, yet it is not the formal aspect of what is being blessed, or of what makes them a ‘joined object’ suitable for blessing.
Tony, you write: It is not a matter of mere wish as to what the blessing implies as to approval or at least acceptance from the Church...Social connectedness (and scandal) don't work that way. Actions have implications beyond the facial aspect, whether you want them to or not.
DeleteBecause the human mind can abstract, and human speech can express that abstraction, a priest can indeed - by wish and intention, and verbal expression of these - bless only certain abstracted features of a situation. But yes, I agree that side effects of misinterpretation and scandal are beyond our power to turn off and on completely at will.
A lot of this debate seems to assume that a blessing is primarily a form of education, an advertisement of approval (or of disapproval, if a blessing is withheld). It isn't expected that blessings in themselves (of whatever kind) will actually achieve anything spiritual.
But if we do believe in the spiritual power of blessings, then 'how they look to other people' isn't the first concern - important though ‘how they look’ may nevertheless be. So of course the Church will want to give blessings to people in spiritual need if she possibly can, as long as it is without excessive negative side effects such as scandal.
@Ben
DeleteConsider the parallel: 'Catholics say, "We love the sinner but hate the sin".' We can imagine the objection - 'The distinction is merely verbal. If someone is a sinner, that entails that there is a sin. A sinner and his sin are the same thing. To say we should love the sinner (or that we may bless the sinner) is to say we should love them qua sinner - which is to love their sin. Incoherent!'
That God loves the sinner and hates the sin comes straight from the Bible.
"Who is a God like to Thee, who takest away iniquity, and passest by the sin of the remnant of thy inheritance? He will send his fury in no more, because he delighteth in mercy. He will turn again, and have mercy on us: he will put away our iniquities: and he will cast all our sins into the bottom of the sea. Thou wilt perform the truth of Jacob, the mercy to Abraham: which thou hast sworn to our fathers from the days of old." (Micah 7:18-20 Douay-Rheims)
God promised to take the sinner's sins, separate them from him, and throw them deep into the sea, with a giant sign that says "NO FISHING!" Meaning, they will not only be forgiven, but forgotten as well! And if God--who is omniscient--cannot remember them (and He cannot share His glory with another Isaiah 42:8) then it follows that nobody else will remember them either!
Stardusty,
DeleteI commend your commendation of 'love and compassion for gay people', and of Jesus and Francis in their commendation of love for sinners, enemies and persecutors.
Evidently, Francis (cf. Fiducia Supplicans itself, 4; 11) and Jesus (cf. e.g. Mk 7:21-22) themselves see no contradiction between this love, and warning against sexual immorality.
Actions that trample on the noble reproductive potentiality of the human body and its self-transcending significance degrade the body by treating it and its powers as mere object for the will's manipulation, fit to be used for passing pleasure deliberately sundered from its telos of procreation.
True love, willing the genuine holistic good for all, avoids such actions ourselves and cautions others against them.
Commenters here, whether critics or defenders of Fiducia Supplicans, are generally concerned to defend and promote this true love. (I'll leave it there, as this is not really a thread on sexual morality.)
among many non-Catholics (whom I was including in 'the world', and who might even ask for a priest's blessing sometime).
DeleteI assume there are plenty of gay couples in parts of the world that were never Christian at all, that have no idea of what the Church teaches, but I also assume most such have no interest in a blessing either. I also imagine that there might be touristy types who might ask for blessings like collecting Pokemon cards, but I doubt giving them a blessing is sound practice. So, I was limiting myself mainly to those for whom getting a blessing would actually matter to their spiritual condition in some way, and in particular who wanted some kind of relationship with the Church, even if not yet well defined.
However, as well as the object, there is the motive of the blessing; and part of the legitimate motive of the blessing - on the priest's part, and hopefully even on the couple's part - may well be the very fact that they are a couple in a sinful situation, and so in particular need of divine help.
Ben, I agree completely. A couple that is just beginning to explore the Catholic Church, and knows hardly anything about its teachings, might honestly want a blessing and be unaware that their existing irregular union is going to become something for which they have to undertake (big) changes. And at least in theory a priest could bless them in such conditions. But reducing that "in theory" into practice will also require applications of prudence. Is the blessing in private, or public? Is the couple's (irregular) union known widely, or not? (Possibly the priest himself doesn't know.) Is it opportune for the priest to mention anything to the couple that implies they have major work ahead because of their relationship? Has the couple "asked for a blessing" or "asked for a blessing on us together as a couple"? And on to a dozen other factors that might or might not be present.
What I don't think is a viable regular option is for a priest to formulate a prayer of blessing a "couple" that outright expresses limitations or constraints, i.e. that says the blessing is contingent on good will / disposition, or says that the blessing only applies with respect to the wholesome elements of their relationship but not others. I think that either the priest should not be blessing the couple if he thinks he would just have to add such qualifiers in order to be prudent, or he should assume that these qualifiers are already implicit within the meaning of a blessing and he doesn't need to say them explicitly.
But if we do believe in the spiritual power of blessings, then 'how they look to other people' isn't the first concern - important though ‘how they look’ may nevertheless be. So of course the Church will want to give blessings to people in spiritual need if she possibly can, as long as it is without excessive negative side effects such as scandal.
Also agreed. For this reason, in light of Fiducia Supplicans (FS), priests need to be very attentive to all the different levels of attention to details in order to be prudent. For example, other than for gay couples with whom the priest already has a relationship (on other grounds than FS), if a couple comes to him saying "we heard about FS and we would like a blessing..." he almost certainly will have to go slow and work out a LOT of details before he can give a blessing without scandalizing the couple themselves. And while some couples will accept that going slow with lengthy discussions, many gay couples would not, and for them there is a good chance that blessing them would in fact give (them) scandal by misleading them about the Church's teachings.
Ben,
DeleteIn order to avoid increasingly bloated posts, I will avoid quotes and limit myself to a couple points:
1. Your analogy between blessing couples and blessing sinners hinges on what they are being blessed as. Blessing them as a couple entails blessing the union. Blessing them as (to take Tony's example) rescuers, does not entail blessing the union.
If we are blessing sinners, we cannot bless them as sinners without blessing the sin. But we can bless them as persons (or as rescuers, or as the ill, or whatever) who just so happen to be sinners. We can even bless them as repentant, inasmuch as they are seeking to avoid or conquer sin. But we cannot bless them as sinners simpliciter.
So sure, being a sinner entails sin just as being a couple entails the romantic union. But while I acknowledge that you dispute the use of "blessing as" as I've been using it (which I will address below), if we grant that point for the sake of argument, then this is the point at which your analogy breaks down. We bless the couple as a couple (which entails blessing the union), but we don't love/bless the sinner as a sinner (which thus does not entail blessing the sin). All this is to say, if the distinction I've been drawing between blessing couples as couples vs. blessing them as something else holds, then the analogy here doesn't hold.
2. I grant that the document doesn't use the language of blessing the couple "as a couple," but I do think this is the most natural reading. You talk about blessing them "as persons," but that's not what's at issue. It's whether we're blessing them as individual persons vs. blessing them as joint persons ("a couple," as it were). The reason that blessing them "as a couple" is the natural reading is that there are other blessings of couples for different occasions, and these all are referring to the joint relationship between the two. Even if it distinguishes between the two people within the relationship, the blessings are still situated within the context of the relationship.
If Card. Fernandez were to come out and say you could only bless the members of the couple individually (i.e. one at a time), that would resolve the consistency issue. That he hasn't (so far as I can tell), in the midst of all this pushback, is telling. Indeed, when you allude to them talking about "the positive aspects of the relationship that are morally good or neutral," it seems quite clear that they are being blessed as a couple, precisely because Fernandez is alluding to the relationship's elements in what is being blessed.
So even if the document asserts repeatedly that you cannot bless that union, all this does is set one of the parameter's for Ed's incoherence charge. Because while it asserts that, the plain reading is that it also asserts the permissibility to bless the couple. But if the latter assertion entails a denial of the former (even if the document wouldn't recognize such an entailment), then we've arrived at our contradiction.
At this point, I think I will bow out and leave it to others if they want to carry the argument further.
Hi Ed,
ReplyDeleteDr. Gavin Ortlund, a Baptist pastor who's very well-informed about Catholicism, has posted a 14-minute reflection on Pope Francis' latest declaration on his blog, Truth Unites. He's in broad agreement with you. Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpxG83Vb-Kg
I suspect a great many people would be less bothered by this document if it were actually doing something about the German bishops conference (among other things).
ReplyDeleteFor Cdl. Fernández to say (in an interview published by The Pillar) that the document is perfectly orthodox and does not permit blessing of sinful unions but to not actually act against the people who are explicitly using the document to bless sinful unions means that you are either a liar or don't care about the scandal you are causing.
ReplyDeleteWhat is it that these people who are clearly violating scriptural injunctions, imagine that a so-called "blessing" is going to do for them?
Reminds me of the clowns whose anxiety and insistence upon receiving Communion seems to be inversely proportionate to their disbelief in the Real Presence. The less they believe in it, the more they clamor for and insist upon it.
Are you a Christian DNW, and if so of what stripe? If you are not, what care you for scriptural injunctuons?
DeleteAnonymous
DeleteDecember 23, 2023 at 12:13 PM
Are you a Christian DNW, and if so of what stripe? If you are not, what care you for scriptural injunctuons?"
Anonymous,
What's it to you?
I you want to a pick a name and announce your own bona fides, then maybe I'll answer.
DNW 12.13PM
DeleteI think that it is a perfectly fair and legitimate question to ask of someone who opines so widely and extensively in this combox. But a Christian would not conceal their faith and so betray their lord, but instead proclaim and defend it, seeking to further their 'great commision' , so I deduce that you are not one.This being so, and since you clearly despise naturalism and naturalists, it is a matter of understandable curiosity to ask what manner of supernaturalist you are. Unless of course your hatred of naturalism has psychological roots, and you are just playing make believe in your supernaturalism, hoping desperately that some version or other of it is correct.
"I think that it is a perfectly fair and legitimate question ..."
DeleteNo reason for me to care what you think; whether it is about fairness and legitimacy, or anything else.
You, be you one or several, are unwilling to demonstrate enough character to even key in a combox ID so your own voice and opinion can be consistently assigned during those very exchanges which you seek and initiate; much less enough character to state your own so-called "supernaturalist" comittments - whatever those are imagined to be.
What are you, some half-pint Confidential Agent for Supernaturalist Affairs? Or, more likely, are you just what you appear to be: an offended combox troll, comically probing for what it delusionally imagines is a rhetorical leverage point.
You deduce? Get serious ...
Anonymous @December 23, 2023 at 6:17 PM
DeletePick a fake name already or stop complaining that people think you're a creep. Or a stalker.
DNW. 5.10AM
DeleteNot for the first time you come across as being seriously paranoid. A completely luducrous response to a simple inquiry, which of course you need not have responded to at all.
Miller 6.17PM
DeleteYou serious? 'Pick a fake name already or stop complaiming that people think that you are a creep. Or a Stalker.'
Which people are these then? Obviously you and your pal DNW, who are probably paranoid and delusional, but not the great bulk of normal people.
AnonymousDecember 24, 2023 at 11:34 AM,
DeleteMerry Christmas.
Persistently Anonymous says,
Delete"...you come across as being seriously paranoid. "
Apparently the irony of someone who is himself too terrified to adopt even a local combox tag so his comments can be assigned to him consistently, going on to call others "paranoid", escapes him.
" A completely luducrous response to a simple inquiry, which of course you need not have responded ... "
Not at all ludicrous on his own terms. Since, if he admitted to being the affected and anonymous ponce "Oh-Dear-Me-I-Must-Say", who has appeared in other comment threads, then I would indeed have proceeded to ignore him right from the start.
I have been in effect asked the same question at least three times. Each time by an Anonymous. One amiable, two or three who refused to take assignable responsibility for their own comments, much less their own views.
How then, am I or anyone else for that matter, to initially sort out whether there are many anonymous posters asking the same question in the same manner, or whether it is only one or two trolling little creeps ( to borrow bmiller's apt characterization ) who are consistently sniffing around at my heels?
Now, I'll address Anonymous directly:
Pick a name, Anonymous. Any available and arbitrary local ID name will do. Then, I'll know who to ignore with a greater degree of precision.
And we will both have our goals met. Me, in knowing who to ignore; you, in being ignored.
Looks to be a win-win. How can you refuse?
DNW 2.30PM
DeleteWhy on earth would anyone who posts and opines here as frequently and at such great length as yourself refuse to make explicit their core philosophical/theological beliefs and assumptions? Do you really think that I am the only one scratching their head about this?
Your essay length evasions are pathetic.
Anonymous@December 27, 2023 at 3:17 AM
DeleteI think you're the only one obsessing over someone telling you "no". Although that is creepy, perhaps you were raised that way and think that is normal behavior.
It's OK. You can still ask the priest for a non-liturgical blessing.
What's weird(er) about this anonymous is that DNW has described his background and "commitments", and done so fairly recently, at that. What is the point of badgering him to do it over again? Anon doesn't think he should be bothered to go forth and investigate? To do some reading?
DeleteThere are, on any page with 100 comments, at least 30 from some "anonymous" or other. Why not attack THEM for their lack of forthright explanation of their commitments? That would be far more to worthwhile.
Don't be daft scholar Tony. DNW isn't just some random 'Anonymous' that cannot always be distinguished from others. He is one of the most prolific, opinionated and frequently obnoxious contributors to this blog - my God, he even posts more than you do! And there has to be a suspician that he is a white seperatist or supremicist and so is concealing his base convictions.
DeleteDNW has revealed quite a bit about his background, but if he has ever made explicit his core philosophical and theological beliefs I have not seen this, and I do not have time to go in search of it ( this weak male has been posting here for years ). Perhaps you could supply references? I will not hold my breath.
Anonymous@December 29, 2023 at 12:01 PM
DeleteDo you even know what the topic of this blog post is? How do you think your personal obsession relates to it?
You are plugging up the combox with irrelevant whining that someone is hiding information from your anonymous self. That's funny enough, but for some reason you think that hurling insults at him will persuade him that you are entitled to the info. Has that ever worked for you in real life?
Finally, it's apparent that you're unfamiliar with the ad hominem fallacy. You know. That it is irrelevant who is making an argument as to whether the argument is valid, sound and true. You should look it up. Then you may understand why people are telling you to stop obsessing and start trying to answer his arguments.
And there has to be a suspician that he is a white seperatist or supremicist and so is concealing his base convictions.
DeleteHahahahaha! That's fantastic. Are you doing satire? Or maybe it's just plain old paranoid schizophrenia? The reason he has not let on about his TRUE beliefs must be he has [one specific terrible belief system], and not any of the other 374 also terrible belief systems besides that of [the one specific one you shoved out.] He obviously wouldn't have withheld his true beliefs if he held #32, or #497, right?
Don't forget Archbishop Vigano!
ReplyDeleteHe explains how this kind of confusion resembles the way the devil temps souls into sin and evil.
https://exsurgedomine.it/en/231220-fiducia-supplicans/
Check the Catechism, 2357-9.
ReplyDeleteA Thomistic approach to blessing of couples:
ReplyDeleteA couple has no entity of itself, unless they have become one flesh. Otherwise a group is a mere aggregate of things, obviously not a primary substance (as a person or an animal) and not even a secondary substance (as a bar of Iron, for example).
So say you have a couple of apples, united in a bag, and you bless the couple, it means only you are blessing each of the apples, not the bag, and not the union so construed, which as we said, has no entity in and of itself.
Thoughts?
How long have the apples been in the bag? Any more than about a week to ten days and they'll almost certainly have become one flesh (and pretty rank flesh at that).
DeleteFine for inanimate objects that don't have minds and wills.
DeleteOnce you try and apply it to people, that's when you get all the above listed problems.
Even if there was no philosophical, or theological problems; once you have to deal with ignorance, weakness and malice, you get scandal galore.
Consider the sacraments, they consist of and outward sign that signifies an inward grace. They have matter and form.
If you see a man and a woman standing together in front of a priest with a bunch of people around, especially at a church, you could easily assume they were getting married. Now what do you think a passerby would assume if he saw the same setup with two men instead?
"Hey, that's those two guys from the bar! Is that priest doing what it looks like he's doing!?"
A couple has no entity of itself, unless they have become one flesh.
DeleteThere are various KINDS of beingness to a grouped bunch of stuff besides that of substantial unity. The unity of a marital union is just one kind, a particularly intimate kind, but then again the unity of the Body of Christ is also intimate (in a different way), the Church, though again not that of substantial unity. The unity of a family is real even though the children certainly are not members of the one-flesh union of the father and mother. Then there's the reality of the union of members of a nation, and the members of a university, and members of a business firm: these are all real in a different sense than substantial unity. They typically are real in the category of relation, and relations are REAL though of various kinds.
The act of requesting a blessing, by two people representing themselves as joined in some way, wherein their request is a request to bless them insofar as their joining together into (some kind of) a unity of ANY sort at all, seems to represent a blessing also of their joined unity and not just a blessing of each one individually. Imagine a mafia don asking a priest to bless his "mafia familia" precisely insofar as they are a family. To be more explicit, suppose the mafia don asks for the blessing because they are about to embark on a dangerous effort to destroy some other mafia family through murder and mayhem. Any priest who would grant a blessing in that situation, because each individual person can be blessed, is barking up the wrong tree.
I have thoughts along those lines as well.
DeleteHowever, for me the primary issue is not the orthodoxy of the statement (which I assume) but rather the prudence of issuing it and how the ambiguity of language can help the heterodox push their false teachings or how this document will be abused with no likely intervention from the Vatican at least under this Pope to correct it.
Professor Merrick over at Crisis said it best.
"It is true that Fiducia Supplicans does not change the doctrine or sacrament of marriage and simply calls for a rather low-level, generic pastoral blessing of same-sex couples. But I worry that the unregulated and doctrinally disconnected nature of these blessings makes them, in the eyes of those who wish to ignore the Church’s teaching, a more meaningful tool for relativizing and rivaling Church teaching. While abuse may not invalidate proper use, allowing abuse while dismissing as irrelevant proper use is an endorsement of abuse. In that case, then, the discipline of Pope Francis and Cardinal Víctor Fernández will be the most important guide as to the intentions of this document. And it appears they’ve already decided not to do their jobs."
Re: "couple" and "union" and the argument that they have two different meanings. That kind of rhetorical device, as well as its equally confusion-inducing opposite, equivocation, seem to be very common in lots of fields of discourse today. I'd like to learn more about that area of linguistics/philosophy. Can anyone tell me what it's called, and maybe suggest an entry point for study? I've been banging my head off the likes of Grice, Austin, and some Searle, but so far it has been kinda opaque. (Ed's mention of "implicature" gave me some hope I may be heading in the right general direction, but the fact that iOS tried to correct that to "implication" did not.)
ReplyDeleteI will point out that you will not, for example, see a Declaration about blessings for individuals engaged in a systematic theft scheme which they are proud of and plan to continue indefinitely. In that case it is plain that you pray for those people and call for them to genuinely repent and make an effort to stop sinning. You don't bless those in open and willful rebellion against God.
ReplyDeleteIt just seem obvious that there is no reason for this kind of Declaration to exist other than to provide cover to those who want to further an agenda.
Because if there really is no change to doctrine and all that, then what is the point? Why open this door and continuously make it a subject of debate? Sinners (which is all of humanity) are already fit to repent of their sins, whatever those sins may be, accept Jesus Christ, and receive His Grace.
Maybe I'm crazy but I can honestly see the difference between blessing the people in the relationship without blessing the relationship itself. Just like I can see the difference with a priest doing an impromptu blessing/sign of the cross over a demoniac (possessed person) without obviously blessing the union of sorts.
ReplyDeleteThat's not to say that all this is a good thing. Quite the contrary. The main problem with this, of course, is scandal - the misunderstanding that this will inevitably cause, which will lead people into thinking that the union is being blessed.
Personally, I see this as imprudent. Comparable to the past practice of "selling indulgences". While technically not evil when properly understood (granting an indulgence in exchange for a donation)l, it was so prone to abuse that it was rightfully outlawed.
No way that a document from the doctrinal branch of the Church and signed by the Pope is somehow not ex cathedra. This Pope earlier changed the Catechism on capital punishment too against the earlier teaching of the Church. The Catechism *is* the teaching of the Church. This Pope is plainly not Catholic.
ReplyDeleteNonsense. There is no contradiction. Inadmissible does not mean intrinsically evil.
DeleteA flaw of the declaration is the lack of definitions of terms.
DeleteAllow me to suggest definitions which clear the ambiguity and contradictions:
________
"couple" - a particular relationship between two people ("best friends" "courtship" "marriage")
"union" - a consensual sexual relationship (including faux marriage and disordered sex)
One auxiliary axiom is that any non-sinful, properly ordered relationship can be blessed.
________
This preserves the doctrinal integrity of the declaration, and the hermeneutic of continuity, while maximizing pastoral options for rare cases (the pope's M.O.)
There are many other problems, but the definitions are key.
The (somewhat shocking) suggestion of the document is that non-sexual same sex particular relationships are not only possible, but good (ordered), and achievable with God's grace.
Traditionalists remind me of bitter wives about to divorce their husband's, who interpret every deed and word negatively, and when they were in live their liver could do no wrong, and now that they hate them, they can do no right
ReplyDeleteDr Feser, I wish you and everyone here a Merry Christmas. and a Happy New Year.
ReplyDeleteEd - you’re usually a very careful philosopher, so it surprises me that you insist on a contradiction between the 2021 and 2023 documents. To me, there is evident a clear shift in the meaning of “blessing” between the two texts. Moreover, Francis himself blessed a same-sex couple back in 2015, but then signed off on the 2021 declaration. I don’t suspect he would have seen a contradiction.
ReplyDeleteMerry Christmas.
There isn't a contradiction. It is our moral duty as Catholics to interpret the document in continuity with with doctrine, and not to act as the lay magisterium. The Magisterium teaches "nonsense"? That is apologetics for the Evil One.
DeleteWhile it is true that the lay members of the Church are not called upon to subject the Church's doctrinal documents to a "magisterium of the laity", it is also true that the Church's Magisterium itself has directed the faithful to adhere to the Church's teachings according to the mind of the teacher", i.e. in the mode and degree of assent that the teacher calls forth in expressing his teaching. The manner in which the teacher expresses his expectation of assent comes in many elements, including which kind of document is used, who issues it, the manner in which he expresses himself, and so on. Thus the laity is not just allowed, but obliged to use judgment in recognizing distinctions in different sorts of issuances from the Church. One such distinction is between teachings of a general nature that call for religious assentand determinations of a narrow sort as prudential judgments, which by form do not even call for religious assent.
DeleteAnother such distinction is whether a document represents a "teaching" to be believed vs a "rule" to be followed vs a "permission" to be allowed. It is arguable that this document not only doesn't represent a doctrinal teaching as such, it doesn't even impart a rule that we are obliged to follow, so much as permitting an action, and even there it seems to be tentative in form: it uses "Pope Francis urges us..." and "the Holy Father's proposal..." and "pastoral prudence...may suggest..." These are not the forms that the Magisterium uses for demanding a specific kind of belief or action.
It is not, therefore, contrary to the general obligation to believe what has been taught as truth by the Magisterium, to point out obvious or probable flaws of a prudential nature in a document whose nature is to grant permission for some action(s). It (the act of pointing out such flaws, or the act of judging them probably imprudent) isn't even in the right category for being a failure to give assent where assent is obligated.
It is the Magisterium itself and not your private judgment that determines what level of disagreement is permissible. Secondly, we are not simply talking about a disagreement in prudential judgment here, but dissent. We are talking about the Magisterium teaching nonsense and causing scandal? This would mean that the Magisterium is tempting the faithful to sin, leading us towards the fires of hell.
Delete>>This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.<<
Accusing the Magisterium of scandal, incoherence, or heresy is certainly not the submission of mind and will.
just a wee comment.
ReplyDeletehow is it possible that anyone could interpret the blessing of sinful humans (as we all are) as the blessing of the sin.
My priest blesses us all at the end of Mass.
Everyone a sinner...who trusts in His mercy.
I want my Church ...the True Church...to bless sinners.
And condemn sin.
The Magisterium teaches "incoherence"? An amazing thing to say from an alleged "Catholic".
ReplyDeleteCouple means "two" as in the two persons in the relationship. This is distinct from how the document is using "union", which is referring to the relationship itself. Reading the document in continuity with the initial Dubia response this becomes clear to the intelligent and charitable reader. It is a serious lack of charity to believe the Magisterium teaches such an obvious contradiction. Paragraph five makes it clear that the union cannot be blessed. Then in paragraph 31 the Magisterium says the Church has the power to bless same-sex unions? You honestly believe the Magisterium is teaching both q and not-q? Doubtful. The proper understanding is exactly how I described it above, which has been confirmed by Cardinal Fernández. A couple in a disordered relationship can receive a spontaneous and private blessing for the purpose of healing the disordered relationship. The disordered relationship itself cannot be blessed. A same-sex couple could be asking for God's grace to live in a chaste and loving friendship (i.e. a properly ordered relationship). The Church does not and cannot bless sin nor does the Magisterium teach "nonsense".
ReplyDeleteLepanto Eric here.
ReplyDeleteBlessings are for all those who want the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Fesser and others did a good job of evaluating the document.
Does Pope Francis and Card Fernandez understand that they have lost Africa and more?
I don't recall much ambiguity with Pope Benedict XVI or Pope St. John Paul II. Both of them could be doctors of the Church. Yet, it is as if they never existed.
It's remarkable how many people are named "Anonymous" on this blog, or who don't have a proper name (first [actual] name, last [actual] name).
ReplyDeleteDave, thank you for making that point. Comments made by "Anonymous" are often difficult to address, because there are any number of anonymouses who might be involved in that very thread.
DeleteThose of you, like Dave, who already have your actual first and last names out there on the web, and who are involved in monetizing the web via such things as paid work and paid published material re-issued on unpaid sites, are dealing with both the positive and negative aspects of having their own (non-web) identity connected with their web commentary. The good, obviously from pay and name recognition that also conduces to pay later on; the bad from having their (actual) identity subject to negative attention from various sources both on web and in real life. It is reasonable for someone making their living (even in part) off of web activities to take the good with the bad on that score.
For those of us who receive no non-web benefits like pay, a consistently used moniker is an adequate device for worthwhile and beneficial conversation in pursuit of the truth. Those who frequent these (and some other) pages can easily see that I have been commenting here for over a decade, and have consistently used my "name" which is readily recognizable as generally I am the only one who uses that moniker. In the rare instances someone else uses it, I can disambiguate, and have done so. (Just as if anyone came in here also using "Dave Armstrong", you would be prepared to say "that was some other person than me".)
For those of us for whom putting their full identity on these comments might make their (non-web) jobs at risk, e.g. those who work at jobs where the employer expressly and unjustly demands that your public (non-work) beliefs cater to the employer's positions on political and moral matters), or whose commentary here may get them canceled in their industry, risking their actual identity here is an unnecessary step in having fruitful conversation. Demanding it anyway would seem to be of less benefit than just leaving things the way they are now, because doing so might tend to shrink the range of opinions offered to little more than a mere echo chamber. Analogously, jurors' names are not universally available to everyone who seeks them, in protection of their honest deliberations.
How insightful you are Mr Armstrong.
DeleteTony
DeleteDecember 26, 2023 at 12:50 PM
"Dave, thank you for making that point. Comments made by "Anonymous" are often difficult to address, because there are any number of anonymouses who might be involved ...
For those of us who receive no non-web benefits like pay, a consistently used moniker is ... adequate ..."
The point of an author ID of some sort in a combox context, is merely to disambiguate the parties to an exchange, done for a number of good reasons itself, and that is about it.
To your broader point,
When I first commented on a matter of public concern - the RKBA debate - through an Internet service provider years ago, by default I used my email address which was basically my name @ XYZ dot blah blah.
Although at the time I was careful to comment in as machine-like, narrow, and technical a fashion as possible, and to address the issue rather than other commenters, it soon became apparent that rhetorical disruption and attempts to induce emotional upset in those holding opposing viewpoints was standard practice for some, and considered by them as par for the course in waging a much broader social war.
In fact some on the left side openly called the interpersonal provocation method, "fighting by other means".
The particular question mooted on that forum was just one flashpoint in their war on conservative or libertarian, people themselves.
It was not too long then, before we saw emails advising us from the "on-line health and safety teams" not to use full names or easily interpolated shorter versions.
Now, I never had any trouble I could not handle, and only had to have an investigator deal with one stalker there.
However, on a subsequent blog to which I contributed a little by invitation while [unlike here where I just showed up uninvited to drop comments off and on] using this very ID, a pair of socialist activists did for a time make a project of attempting to determine my residence and activities even so far as calling on others to assist. This continued until the more prudent one advised his more ardent and obsessed friend to drop the matter before they got into real trouble; as unlike the average antifa member or basement troll, they had families of their own whose well-being might have been impacted by any legal fallout.
And that brings me finally to the nothing to lose activist or troll type. Ones with personal histories like the dead activists in Kenosha, or some others in Portland or Seattle.
The lesson there is that even if they are no match for you in some personal confrontation which they seek out and initiate, even if you successfully put the quietus on them in a perfectly justifiable manner, the legal and possibly the emotional and financial consequences can be all consuming.
Of course if they do anything at all, "swatting" or workplace harassment is much more likely than any showdown in a parking lot or on your front porch
But .... some people just don't care what happens to them if they feel that they can drag you down or cause some loss.
Though it is not an issue here, as a general principle, assessing the possible cost and inconvenience is at least worth considering as you evaluate how much information to share with potentially mentally unbalanced ideological and political antagonists who might try and leverage it in real life.
But again, and for the third time, this is a philosophy blog, and it's not really an issue here.
Good explanation, Tony. Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I still suspect that there are many more people being anonymous who don't have adequate reason to do so, and that it's abused, because folks can then insult and make any point without being accountable, since no one knows who they are; can't check other things they have written, etc.
DeleteSo if it is a legitimate reason (possibly canceling, job difficulties et al), fine. If not, I think a lot (certainly some) of it is manipulative and intellectual cowardice. I've always generally opposed it.
I like being anonymous so I can take inconsistent positions.
DeleteDNW 4.05PM
DeleteI response to your latest rendition of "War and Peace', I am surprised that you have ever had security concerns about revealing too much information about yourself.You constantly witter on about manliness, 'weak males' who behave or believe in ways you decry, and recently labelled an Anonymous contributor as 'a ponce' because of the linguistic constructions he sometimes uses. You obviously perceive yourself to be a 'real man' - especially when out hunting no doubt, though I bet you have another solitary habit too - but in reality you are clearly a simpering coward .
FRED
I prefer to remain Anonymous so as not to get embroiled in endless rancour with certain individuals who might latch onto and troll me, as my opinions are very stridently held and often idiosyncratic. There is a nest of theists on here ( both anonymous and declared ) -plus an individual of unknown fundamental theological and philosophical position - who seem to be sociopathic to me.
DeleteDNW
DeleteAre you sure you adequately made all your points in your 14 paragraph comment?
@ Tony
DeleteThis is addressed to you rather than in response to you.
I see in my first paragraph that I should have started it with "Yeah ..." And then placed "disambiguate" in quotes, since that word expressing that precise formulation was yours, and I was merely affirming the take.
As in it should have been ...,
[Yeah] [t]he point of an author ID of some sort in a combox context, is merely to ["]disambiguate["] ...
Two or three years ago something changed. Maybe it was because I closed my gmail account. But I've had trouble posting comments ever since.
DeleteGeorge LeS
I used my full name in the atheist OnlySky forums, as I always do. I had trouble posting on Jonathan M. S. Pearce's page, where I have been active for several years. It turns out that the entire OnlySky platform has banned me. Even Jonathan asked them to let me in his own forum and they refused. My my! What tight control, huh?
DeleteSo much for free discussion among atheists online if a Christian apologist dares set foot there. OnlySky their big place now.
So if some atheists here think they are persecuted, I have been completely censored over there. But I have my own blog, so I can't be shut up. Patheos even allows me to defend the pope (!!!).
Allow me to use my consistent moniker here to give Dave (whose apologetics work I've appreciated) a shout-out, and to agree with Tony's analysis of how monikers are used.
DeleteAs for DNW's comment, I guess he could have cleaned it up a bit, but I didn't think it was particularly long. And even if it were, I'd be inclined not to whinge about it, provided I could understand what he was conveying. It takes me about 10 minutes to type a 15-paragraph post conveying a certain point accompanied by relevant ideas. Those 10 minutes, I can spare. It can then take hours of polishing to trim it down to half that length while still conveying the same point and ideas. I can't spare those. (If one isn't being paid for it, who's got the time?)
And while tight writing is valuable, isn't it pretty dopey to be daunted by a mere 14 paragraphs of text, when reading a philosophy blog? (If that's too much to handle, I'm sure something more suitable can be found elsewhere. Perhaps in a Fisher-Price product advertisement, or on a box of breakfast cereal?)
"a box of breakfast cereal?"
DeleteNope, still too long, I mean, does anybody actually read every syllable of every ingredient in the whole list all the way to the end? Nope, don't think so.
Or, say, the some 613 commandments. Sure, those are direct instructions from the creator of the universe, so maybe that would be worth memorizing, but nope, who has the time? I can't be bothered, can you?
Jesus already knew about the short attention span that comes with being made in god's image, so he solved that problem, gave the keys of the church to Peter, who has diligently passed them along to Francis.
Just listen up folks, Francis is telling you which parts of the bible are most important and what they mean, because Jesus gave Francis the job of spokesman.
"Anonymous December 27, 2023 at 10:21 AM
DeleteI like being anonymous so I can take inconsistent positions."
Unnecessary.
By the lights of the typical poster here I accomplish that goal even while using an individual moniker.
You're welcome.
Anonymous:
DeleteHow insightful you are Mr Armstrong.
How very droll. :-)
JMM
ReplyDeleteThe document spends a lot of time trying to head off the objection that a blessing for gay couples would be confused with a marriage. It seems like the entire point of the document is _not_ to worry that blessing gay couples would be confused with blessing homosexuality.
I understand that the document does say, or at least imply, that homosexuality is objectively sinful. But it is very difficult to imagine that this document would even exist at all if an equal concern was given to avoid implying a legitimization of homosexuality.
The damage surely cannot be that people might mistake a gay couple for a true marriage. The damage is at the more fundamental level of mistaking gay sex for a legitimate sexual act. And it seems to me that once people believe gay sex is morally equivalent to real sex, then there is no reason why people would distinguish between a "gay" marriage and real one.
JMM
ReplyDeleteMany Catholics, certainly Ed, are already aware of this.
FYI.
See First Things.
the-cost-of-making-a-mess
DNW 11.59AM
DeleteWhat buisness is it of yours? Why do you proffer your opinions? You are not even a Christian, let alone a Catholic.
Is there some reason you're so hung up on DNW's theological foundation? It's starting to become bizarre, quite frankly.
DeleteI'm not a Catholic, but I find this subject fascinating. Same as discussions on military strategy and technology despite not being a soldier, or political infighting in the Democratic Party despite not being a Democrat, or the old Atheism + schism despite not being an atheist, and so on.
Do you only participate in discussions of direct consequence to you? Are you a Catholic?
Kevin
DeleteDNA opines very widely and extensively - often obnoxiously - on this blog ( you yourself have had to pull him up at leat twice regarding his treatment of autistic people, though predictably you received no apology from him or even an acknowledgement that he was out of order ), so as a leading commentator here ( well, at least in terms of rhe sheer volume of material published ), it seems reasonable to me that he should be asked about the philosophical and theological foundations of his world view, the latter aspect of which seems particularly opaque. What you should find bizarre is that such a verbose and opinionated commentator should hide this, and treat inquiries about it as if they were intrusioms into his sex life.
.
What you should find bizarre is that such a verbose and opinionated commentator should hide this, and treat inquiries about it as if they were intrusioms into his sex life.
DeleteNot really. Even if he's the sole practitioner of a religion he invented, his comments would still stand or fall on their own merit.
Case in point, after the autistic comments I generally skip his posts. Too many echoes of Vox Day in there.
Kevin
DeleteNot really. His comments cannot always be properly evaluated absent the philosophical and theological structures that undergird them. It is these that need to be known and critiqued, but he is obviously not keen on revealing them. Wonder what he has to hide? Might he be some sort of survivalist seperatist or white supremicist with a theology to match for example?
Kevin
DeleteWhen I posted my first reply to you above, I really had no idea who Vox Day was.
Yes, quite!
Your arguments remind me of my college and seminary days. I thank God for folk like Dr. Feser. I witnessed the advances in the homosexualization of the RCC clergy over the past 60 years. I was driven out of my diocese and the priesthood for daring to speak out against their corrupting influence. These people now rule in the Church. They will not stop at 'pastoral blessings.' Sound arguments are needed but so is a fire-proof ark. Christianity in the West is under siege by the religion of the rainbow flag. It's flood is sweeping away the innocent and the lukewarm. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah. Prepare for the fire prophesized at Akita.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me that there is hope for the RCC yet. No doubt you will be departing with the reactionary faction when the schism comes, and calling yourself the 'True Church'. Good ridance to you!
DeleteThe RCC is just a human institution, and those who maintain otherwise look more ridicilous by the day.
John N's observations provoke a comically histrionic response. Complete with exclamation point, too. He is told:
Delete"No doubt you will be departing with the reactionary faction when the schism comes, and calling yourself the 'True Church'. Good ridance to you!"
Yeah, ok. As in,
While the tatted-up surgically mutilated trans lunatics arranged their orgiastic self-celebration in the park, they shouted at the revulsed passersby: "You are not welcome here!"
Actually, C.S. Lewis long ago skewered the type perfectly with his parody of the "Clevers" of Eschropolis, in his novel, "A Pilgrim's Regress"
" ... there was a crowd of people there, drinking what looked like medicine and talking at the tops of their voices. They were all either young, or dressed up to look as if they were young. The girls had short hair and flat breasts and flat buttocks so that they looked like boys: but the boys had pale, egg-shaped faces and slender waists and big hips so that they looked like girls—except for a few of them who had long hair and beards.
‘What are they so angry about?whispered John. ...
When Victoriana rose John at first thought that she was a schoolgirl: but after he had looked at her again he perceived that she was in fact about fifty ...
Then Victoriana took a little toy harp and began. The noises of the toy harp were so strange that John could not think of them as music at all ...
‘I hope you liked it,’ said Gus to John.
‘Well,’ began John doubtfully, for he hardly knew what to say: but he got no further, for at that moment he had a very great surprise. Victoriana had thrown her mask away and walked up to him and slapped him in the face twice, as hard as she could....
‘You mustn’t mind her being a little bitter,’ said Gus. ‘She is so temperamental and sensitive, and she has suffered a great deal.’
‘Well, I must admit,’ said one of the Clevers, ‘now that she has gone, that I think that stuff of hers rather vieux jeu.’
‘Can’t stand it myself,’ said another.
‘I think it was her face that needed slapping,’ said a third.
‘She’s been spoiled and flattered all her life,’ said a fourth. ‘That’s what’s the matter with her.’
‘Quite,’ said the rest in chorus."
Trouble is, is that they are not off on their own, but have infested and colonized the institution of the Church itself. They control the real property donated to the Church by generations of faithful. And the sodomite progressives who hold the titles, true to their nature as no boundaries molesters, won't let the poor few who wish to follow tradition have their few masses in peace; or in some instances, even to buy back the disused properties which their own families had funded.
It's the nature of The Beast, as one might say.
Exactly so!
DeleteBut possibly not as ridiculous as someone who's not terribly literate and comments on an academic (or semi-academic) blog.
DeleteMary Therese at 5.00AM
DeleteHow pathetic. My literacy may or may not be limited ( don't say 'terribly' or DNW will have you down as a 'lady' ponce ), but in point of fact I have a PhD in condensed matter physics from a Russel group University in the UK, so that is not something I would ever get hung up about. Philosopher types often tout their 'literacy', while being virtually inumerate and spouting an endless torrent of verbiage and nonesense. Give me ten philosophers and they will disagree about almost everything.So I am so pleased for you that you presumably see yourself as 'terribly ' literate. You must be so proud.
Seems to me that there is hope for the RCC yet. No doubt you will be departing with the reactionary faction when the schism comes, and calling yourself the 'True Church'. Good ridance to you!
DeleteThe RCC is just a human institution, and those who maintain otherwise look more ridicilous by the day.
If the RCC is just a human institution, then it is silly - even ridicilous - to imagine that it matters one way or another whether one side wins the internal battle, or whether it splits into two with both sides declaring victory. If it's just a human institution, it could be controlled by the gays this year, then by the straights next year, and then by some other group the following: it certainly would not remain static in supporting gays for very long. History teaches us that merely human institutions change, they don't persist with stability very long.
Dr Feser
ReplyDeleteI just read your X about St Anasthasius. Thanks for that. It touched me deeply.
“For He was made man that we might be made God; and He manifested Himself by a body that we might receive the idea of the unseen Father; and He endured the insolence of men that we might inherit immortality” St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation, 54
I think we have not spent enough time crediting the Sixties Synod for creating the opportunity for new blessings because, as a Church, we were so constrained in the past.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first learned about FS I was irked because My Douay Rheims Bible Dictionary and my 1929 New Catholic Dictionary defined Blessing, in part, as Praise.
Is the Catholic Church now praising perversion?
It seems so to me.
I do confess I have just reread A Doctor of the Church, Saint Peter Damien's book "Gomorrah" and so I am just stuck in the past thinking that when he teaches that sodomy is like beastiality make me think it may be Jake for a priest to Bless a Woman- Ape or a Man- Sheep couple.
@Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosque
DeleteWhere did you get a copy of that book? I tried searching all over Amazon for it but could not find it. Either in Latin or in English.
HolyKnowing,
Deletehttps://www.amazon.com/Gomorrah-Damians-Struggle-Ecclesiastical-Corruption/dp/0996704205
@bmiller
DeleteDon't you think it's absurd that gay people can provoke the wrath of God?
Think about how big the Universe is. Trillions of galaxies, each of which contains a trillion stars, each of which is bigger than Earth. Which in turn contains a multitude of mountains. And each mountain, in turn, compared to you and me, is unfathomably large. Think about how big the creator of all of that is.
And gay people can make Him angry.
If so, then why aren't we venerating all gay men as angels?
"Alas, it is shameful to speak of it! It is shameful to relate such a disgusting scandal to sacred ears! But if the doctor fears the virus of the plague, who will apply the cauterization? If he is nauseated by those whom he is to cure, who will lead sick souls back to the state of health?” With these words, St. Peter Damian introduces the Book of Gomorrah, undoubtedly the most stirringly eloquent and impassioned denunciation of sexual perversion ever penned by a Catholic saint. Although it was written almost a thousand years ago, the Book of Gomorrah in many ways seems addressed to our own times, associating the phenomena of clerical homosexual behavior and pederasty, and endorsing the imprisonment of clergy who are a danger to youth. The Book of Gomorrah offers a scathing analysis of the evil of sodomy, while also expressing compassion for those who have fallen into such vice and the possibility of their redemption by the aid of divine grace. It explains the devastating effects of the vice both spiritually and psychologically, and warns that such behavior, particularly among the clergy, will bring down the wrath of God. It also urges the permanent defrocking of clerics who are habituated to homosexual behavior and endorses the permanent confinement those guilty of child sex abuse. This new translation by Matthew Cullinan Hoffman is the most accurate and faithful available in English, and carries a foreword by Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, Archbishop Emeritus of Guadalajara. It also includes a 10,000-word biographical introduction recounting Damian’s struggle against corruption in the Catholic Church, and a translator’s preface that breaks new scholarly ground and resolves old controversies about the text.
DeleteDon't you think it's absurd that gay people can provoke the wrath of God?
DeleteThink about how big the Universe is. Trillions of galaxies, each of which contains a trillion stars,
Ignoring the hyperbole of "trillions", don't you think it amazing and shocking that God so loved humans that he became man about 2000 years ago? To paraphrase someone much better than me: Who are we, Lord, that you should be mindful of us? And yet he has chosen to be mindful of us, enough to die in our stead. And he did get angry at Pharisees and at money-changers in the Temple.
bmiller
DeleteNot much sign of divine wrath about i'm afraid. Vast swaiths of the world are either secular or Islamic, with gay relationships, SSM, pregnancy terminations, contraception etc very widely and increasingly accepted, yet no sign of the your big guy in the sky. But the age of miracles was long , long ago eh? Very convenient that.
The RCC's stock of witch doctors is highly depleted and continues to bleed away. If it defrocked those who had 'become habituated to homosexual behaviour', it would have none left! In any case, Francis is moving the church in the opposite direction.
Yahweh supposedly subjected humanity to a supernatural global flood long, long ago, as a petulant response to its behaviour, yet there is no sign of him today, with the rise and advance of secularism and Islam and the spread of artificial birth control, pregnancy termination, SSM, transgenderism and other supposed abominations. Mmmm, I wonder why that is?
HolyKnowing,
DeleteYou asked for a link to find a book. I provided it to you. Instead of thanking me, you asked me a weird question. Why? Are you gay?
Sorry. I was the anonymous at January 2, 2024 at 8:22 AM. HolyKnowing. You can make your reply to me.
DeleteAnonymous@January 2, 2024 at 1:02 AM
Were you replying to me? I posted a link to a book and then an excerpt from the description from that link. Your screed is misplaced.
AnymouseJanuary 1, 2024 at 10:38 PM
DeleteDon't you think it's absurd that gay people can provoke the wrath of God?
Think about how big the Universe is. Trillions of galaxies, each of which contains a trillion stars,
Ignoring the hyperbole of "trillions", don't you think it amazing and shocking that God so loved humans that he became man
Anymouse
DeleteJanuary 1, 2024 at 10:38 PM
" 'Don't you think it's absurd that gay people can provoke the wrath of God?
Think about how big the Universe is. Trillions of galaxies, each of which contains a trillion stars ...'
Ignoring the hyperbole of "trillions", don't you think it amazing and shocking that God so loved humans that he became man ..."
The question of Divine wrath as usually addressed cracks me up. We might as well try and sort out natural "wrath" i.e., consequences, before even approaching the question - regarding which the Christian scriptures report,
" ... be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
And one of the first curious things we notice is: 'I'm down with science' Hollywood pop-atheists yapping unironically about a quite literally personified Mother Nature being unhappy with us. This seems to occur everytime there is a flash flood, or a hurricane, or one of their cliffside beach houses falls into the Pacific Ocean due to erosion, or their canyon homes burn in a wildfire because they object to the controlled and precautionary burning of dead undergrowth.
The I'mdownwithsciTards do the same thing with evolution too of course. Personifying a mindless nonprocess and mere residue outcome with all the teleology and intention any prancing shaman could concoct for a phase of the moon.
Meanwhile 100 billion dollars pissed down the drain because of an epidemic spread by sexually incontinent and frenzied buggers, and there are no lessons to be learned other than "More Tolerance".
If that is not the wrath of God, it's a pretty good imitation of the concept.
And then in a lighter vein, there is the story of comedian Sam Kinison.
If the randomness of the cosmos - or is it the hard determinism of the same - had a sense of humor about the concept, it would be found in the fate of fat Sammy.
All the exact and final details are not clear, but Sam shot to fame in part by mocking Jesus Christ.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ojd_lr0mCRw&pp=ygUdc2FtIGtpbmlzb24gamVzdXMgbGFzdCB3b3JkcyA%3D
Kinison died in April of 1992 when his car was struck head on by a pickup truck driven by a young drunk driver despite Kinison's reportedly successful attempt to avoid a collision with the truck immediately preceding it.
Neither Kinison's new wife nor the driver of the truck were seriously injured. And the truck driver received no jail time
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9m__WEIaUI&pp=ygUdc2FtIGtpbmlzb24gamVzdXMgbGFzdCB3b3JkcyA%3D
In an irony that will amuse even the most humorless and ardent materialist, Sam's final comedy album was released in 1993.
It was titled: "Live from Hell"
Sam would have appreciated that.
Here is a thought. Taking the words in Fiducia at face value & applied to the letter of the text while presupposing the teachings of the Church. Every same sex "couple" who asks for a blessing is in effect asking the Priest to pray the gay away. Just saying...
ReplyDeleteGranted it is plausible that was not Fernandez's intent but it is a consequence. Priests who are uncomfortable giving these blessings to gays may wish to inform gay couples who ask for them that that is what they are practically signing up 4.
ReplyDeleteIf you pray God's blessing and actual grace down upon a gay couple to live according to His Will and to purify their relationship then you are in effect praying the gay away.
Which by definition no orthodox Conservative or traditionalist Catholic could object too.
I vote we promote Fiducia in that manner. If anything it will drive the gay lobby crazy....:D
ReplyDeleteLots of back and forth on the blessing of sodomitic pairs.
Yet for some, derailing the question itself seems paramount
Encountering cases like these, it is sometimes best, as I've mentioned before, to give it a rest, just stand back, and let the damn fool - usually an anonymous one - make a damn fool of itself. And then, to respond. Especially, once it becomes indignant.
We have that situation here.
In response to her mild reproach over his backfiring critique, Anonyponce sniffs back at Mary Therese,
"How pathetic. My literacy may or may not be limited"
Well yes, Anonyponce. And the answers in reverse order are:
"It is."
And,
"It is."
Yeah, there's nothing quite like witnessing the unintentional irony generated by that special combination of low verbal intelligence, self-absorbed lack of situational awareness, frustrated outbursts over a stymied sense of entitlement, and the resultant reaction manifesting in hyper OCD-like perseveration. Basically, it is the same trollish behavior which I have previously mocked on this combox as, autistic.
The new and unimproved Anonyponce continues : " ... in point of fact I have a PhD in condensed matter physics from a Russel group University in the UK..."
Now, I am not insinuating below that you are socially upper class and well born; nor even well bred, well mannered, well or broadly educated, nor anything faintly resembling any of it, Anonyponce.
But it is apparent that you strive to portray it as so on the Internet.
It hasn't worked. Not for you, not for "Oh-Dear-Me" ... assuming that you are two rather than one.
Why not try sticking to your lane so as to appear less of a silly twit. If you can ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxSM5y7Pfs&pp=ygUraHR0cHM6Ly93d3cueW91dHViZS5jb20vd2F0Y2g_dj16R3hTTTV5N1Bmcw%3D%3D
... at leat twice regarding his treatment of autistic people, though predictably you received no apology from him or even an acknowledgement that he was out of order ...
So, due to obsessive fixations with my writing "style", with my lack of sensitivity to your mental challenges, and now with my theological comittments, we can at least assign a handful of the creepy anonymous combox postings to you in particular.
Good.
Now that that's settled, go pound sand, creep.
DNW at 6.19PM
DeleteThis must be one of your most bizarre rants yet, with another swipe delivered to autistic people to boot.
More than one 'Anonymous' comments on here about you - in my estimation several- but this one is working class through and through, and it beats me why you imagine that I might be attempting to portay myself otherwise.
You frequently witter on about 'low verbal intelligence types', while showing little of it yourself, being so long winded, verbose and ill disciplined in your interminable deliveries. Why not aim at being more like Prof Feser in your writing. Instead of his antithesis?
Now cut it out with your diversionary tactics and answer the central question that you are runnung away from like the weak male you are - are you a white seperatist, white supremicist or allied species of kook?
"More than one 'Anonymous' comments on here about you - in my estimation several - but this one is working class through and through, and it beats me why you imagine that I might be attempting toportay myself otherwise."
ReplyDeletePlacing your hilarious 'Indignant Twit' huffing aside; no trouble whatsoever in marking you out as of a psychologically resentful British Labor Party background so effectively lampooned in many satires.
Your continuing difficulties with spelling which go beyond common keypad misstrikes, might or might not have justified that assumption initially and insofar as anyone could determine which Anonymous was which.
But, your petulant reaction to Marie Therese's broaching of that awkwardly redounding fact in a general way, certainly pointed in that direction. If you were well bred and read and confident, you would have either ignored it, or laughed it off with an aphoristic quip intended to demonstrate that your literacy trannscended your ability to spell properly or write carefully. Yet you could neither bring yourself to do the former, nor manage the latter.
Whether your obsessive stalking behavior here on Ed Feser's blog, and the molesting crypto Stalinist odor you give off originates in class circumstances, or whether its etiology lies in more personal and deeply rooted psychological disturbances, is anyone's guess at this point.
However, we can now better place both your insistence on anonymity to the point of refusing even a combox authorship identifier, and your repeated projection of paranoia and thought crimes onto others as you work your Selina Parsons routine.
This pattern appears to be more than a cynical tactic with you, but rather a behavior that meets a real psychological need to control and dictate.
Furthermore, if you are telling the truth about there being several of you comically indistinguishable Anonymous sniffing around, it is a good guess that those equally affected poseurs are of a similar cultural if not national origin.That's also pretty damn remarkable and telling.
And finally, you silly twit, two things to take with you:
1. You demonstrably have plenty of time on your hands. If you want to read about my religious views such as they are, look them up in back issues of Feser's blog.
2. Take both your wheedling, and your concocted by-any-means-necessary "suspicions" and insinuations and shove it. Just, shove it.
That is all. You are dismissed.
DNW
DeleteHaha, how hilarious. Never laughed as much in my life.
Never claimed to be the world's greatest at spelling, but it is not something that I obsess about. I have large fingers and thumbs, and since I knock out my posts very rapidly on my phone, I inevitably commit many typos and other infecilities. It is not important to me to spend hours of my time persuing corrections and polishing the posts, as it no doubt is to you. I spend next to no time posting on this blog, in contrast to yourself, who probably really does have nothing better to do with his time.
Once again, diversionary tactics and a complete refusal to address the issue at hand , even tangentially. Yes, I think that we can take it that you are a white seperatist, white supremecist or allied species of kook, no doubt with a concealed theology to match.
Thank you for the very entertaining but completely inaccurate psychobabble, kook.
and the molesting crypto Stalinist odor you give off
DeleteDNW, I got a good laugh out of that, recalling the many instances in literature reporting the apparently intentional Communist refusal to wash, making out cleanliness to be a bourgeois practice - and probably also serving in place of an armband that is seen (well, recognized) by the in crowd and not by the ignorant others. (I almost said "the ignorant unwashed", and had to catch myself. :-) )
Hey Tony,
ReplyDeleteHope you had a restorative holiday.
Yes, no mistaking the suffocating personal miasma both moral and physical which the average socialist exudes.
[I'm going to see if this comment takes. Another disappeared as I checked a citation I had referenced from memory. Was it Beria, or Andrey Vyshinsky, or Felix Dzerzhinsky who provided the operating premise for our combox collection of anonymous Jr. League Chekists? ]
DNW
DeleteSo you have been reduced now to calling socialists smelly? Or at least the average one.
Is there no limit to your talent of exposing yourself to all as a damn fool, encouraged in this case by your fanboy "scholar" Tony?
So are you a white seperatist, white supremecist or allied species of kook then, kook?
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteTony, you deride as a "fanboy", and mock as a "scholar" for his self described efforts to get the facts and history right.
Mary Therese, you call pathetic; when she points without referencing you directly that doing things such as mocking others for supposedly being innumerate when you can't spell the word itself, is not particularly literate.
Jacobson, let's call him, you now troll and compare to a kept animal.
bmiller has had to call you out for being obsessed and creepy .
Kevin, despite your best efforts to ingratiate yourself with him, and despite his own annoyance with my use of the term "autistic" as a behavioral descriptor for your obsessing repetitive combox misbehavior, still puzzles at your out of control obsession.
And to a newer commenter of a traditional RC persuasion, you shout " good riddance!" if indeed that particular outburst was yours there being so many emotionally unstable Anonymous "progressives" trolling this site that it is hard to know in every instance; and, your oblivious melding of insult with illiteracy will not in every instance tell.
Is there anyone else presently commenting whom you hate, despise, are disappointed with, or wish to stalk and troll, and who has not yet been mentioned?
Well I guess there is me. You don't like my writing "style". You resent the length of my comments, the number of paragraphs and the terminology used.
You refuse to pick a combox identifier or state your own your own metaphysical commitments, yet call me paranoid and cowardly for not accommodating your anonymously couched demands.
You profess mystification that there is a calculus of legal and financial consequences involved in putting down a socialist or antifa troll in real life should he confront one, even though both parties - antifa and innocent - might value menacing and homicidally deranged socialist lives equally little and with equal, albeit differing justifications.
You demand to be humored when there is no reason to do so. You insist on being accommodated when a minor amount of your own effort will provide the answer you demand.
And when frustrated, you, like the rest of your malignant kind, brandish the progressive thought crime du jour as a weapon: i.e. , the weak limbed gynecomastic dweeb's version of a nuclear threat.
And yet, you pretend to be nonplussed when others refer to the literal and figurative, physical and moral stench emitted by progressives and their assorted and perverse kindred.
No reason for perplexity. You know the truth concerning your noxious odor.
You simply stink.
And it follows you around like a virtual cloud, even on the Internet.
DNW
DeleteYes, yes, but are you a white nationalist, white supremecist or allied species of kook? Your silence about this is deafening.
By the way , if I am a troll, you are the biggest troll feeder ever to post in this combox. Just can't stop churning out the novellas can you? Now cut the diversionary tactics and answer the question.
Sockpuppeting can become a form of self-harm. Stop it.
ReplyDelete"By the way , if I am a troll..."
ReplyDeleteYou didn't get it.
You didn't get why the comments were comprehensive and historical in the first place.
You didn't get for whom or why they were actually written.
You didn't get why in certain instances they were deliberately placed far outside of any contiguous thread within the combox.
And now?
It's probably inevitable that if and when what was actually happening began to dawn on you, that you would eventually begin to grudgingly admit that you, the barely literate supposed PhD from a "Russel" (sic) university, are in fact and at core, just a malignant and disturbed troll.
It finally began to dawn on you, just what it was that your obsessive and unhinged actions were more powerfully revealing about yourself than mere words ever could.
Think of it as an impromptu experiment, with you the incompetent "scientist", as the unwitting subject.
Think of it all as leading you on to an explicit self-knowledge, allowing you to publicly embrace your inner, slandering, troll nature.
And speaking of public knowledge.
You may be an anonymous sh!t-slinger officially, but you have left enough indignantly defensive material behind bearing the imprint of your habitually expressed personal deficits, that anyone interested, could probably put two and two together. Anyone interested, that is.
But nobody cares who you are or what you think. Which, is why you were reduced to becoming an anonymous troll in the first place.
It's always nice when things come together and wrap up neatly, don't you think? Don't bother to reply if you can help yourself. That, was a rhetorical question.
The new church of Bergoglio was founded in 2013. It has nothing to do with the true Catholic Church now in interregnum since the death of its last pope Benedict xvi.
ReplyDeleteTherefore “fiducia Supplicans” has no proper relevance , guidance or authority for any Roman Catholic.