Friday, April 15, 2016

Craig on divine simplicity and theistic personalism


A number of readers have called my attention to a recent podcast during which William Lane Craig is asked for his opinion about theistic personalism, the doctrine of divine simplicity, and what writers like David Bentley Hart and me have said about these topics.  (You can find the podcast at Craig’s website, and also at YouTube.)  What follows are some comments on the podcast.  Let me preface these remarks by saying that I hate to disagree with Craig, for whom I have the greatest respect.  It should also be kept in mind, in fairness to Craig, that his remarks were made in an informal conversational context, and thus cannot reasonably be expected to have the precision that a more formal, written treatment would exhibit.

Having said that…

I was surprised at how many basic mistakes Craig made in his characterization of the views of his opponents, and at how little argumentation (as opposed to mere assertion) was offered in response to those views.  Let’s walk through the various issues Craig addresses and dissect his comments.  (A side note on the most minor mistake:  The man interviewing Craig mispronounces my name.  The correct pronunciation is “fay-zer,” like the word “phaser” in Star Trek.) 

What is theistic personalism?

Craig and his interviewer give the impression that “theistic personalism” is a label that Thomists apply to non-Thomist theists in general; that David Bentley Hart -- who, like me, is critical of theistic personalism -- is, accordingly, a Thomist; that what “theistic personalism” amounts to is just the traditional Christian understanding of God; and that rejecting theistic personalism entails regarding God as impersonal.  None of these things is true. 

For one thing, Hart is most definitely not a Thomist.  Indeed, as readers of my various exchanges with Hart over the years know well, Hart is very critical of Thomists.  That alone suffices to show that, contrary to the impression Craig gives, the dispute between theistic personalists and their critics is simply not the same dispute as that between Thomists and non-Thomists.

For another thing, “theistic personalism” is a label which (as far as I can tell) was introduced by Brian Davies in his book An Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion, and he contrasts theistic personalists, not merely with Thomists specifically, but with classical theists in general.  Now, as Davies explicitly says, the classical theist tradition includes thinkers as diverse as Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Maimonides, Avicenna, Leibniz, the Protestant Reformers, Jonathan Edwards, and many others.  And the aspect of classical theism that Davies emphasizes throughout the book is its commitment to the doctrine of divine simplicity, together with such implications of that doctrine as the theses that God is immutable, that he is timeless, that he is not a particular instance of some general kind of thing, and so forth.

What makes someone a “theistic personalist” as opposed to a classical theist, then (as I read Davies), is essentially that he either explicitly denies the doctrine of divine simplicity, or that he at least implicitly denies it by virtue of denying God’s immutability, or claiming that God is an instance of a kind, etc.  Classical theist critics of theistic personalism thus include not only Thomists, but also Augustinians, Scotists, and Suarezians, not to mention traditional Eastern Orthodox and Protestant theologians, as well as traditional Jewish theologians, Muslim theologians, and purely philosophical theists.

Davies also explicitly says that what he is calling “theistic personalism” is the same thing as what Norman Geisler calls “neo-theism.”  Now, what Geisler attacks as “neo-theist” are views which characterize God as composite rather than simple, changeable rather than immutable, temporal rather than atemporal, and so forth -- views such as “open theism,” process theology, Plantinga’s attack on divine simplicity, etc.  What he’s attacking, then, are not “non-Thomists” as such.  Geisler also emphasizes that the classical theism he defends is the traditional Christian conception of God, and the conception that Christian theologians have traditionally seen as implicit in the Bible.  Geisler thus condemns “neo-theism” not only on philosophical grounds, but also precisely as a departure from Christian tradition and a departure from scripture.  (Davies does the same.)

Now, as Craig notes in the podcast, he was a student of Geisler’s.  He really ought to know, then, that it is extremely misleading to represent the dispute between theistic personalists and their critics as if it were merely a dispute between Thomists and non-Thomists, or between traditional Christian theists on the one hand and philosophical corrupters of scriptural teaching on the other.

It is also simply false to imply, as Craig does, that Thomists and other critics of theistic personalism regard God as “impersonal.”  When classical theists like Davies say that God is not “a person,” they do NOT mean that God is impersonal, an “it” rather than a “he.”  On the contrary, most classical theists, including all Thomists, would say that among the divine attributes are intellect, will, omniscience, freedom, and love.  Naturally then, they regard God as personal rather than impersonal, since nothing impersonal could intelligibly be said to possess these attributes.  As I have said many times, the problem with the thesis that “God is a person” is not the word “person,” but rather the word “a.”  And as Davies (and I) have argued many times, there are two key problems with it, a philosophical problem, and a distinctively Christian theological problem. 

The philosophical problem is that this language implies that God is a particular instance of the general kind “person,” and anything that is an instance of any kind is composite rather than simple, and thus requires a cause.  Thus, nothing that is an instance of a kind could be God, who is of course essentially uncaused.  (Obviously these claims need spelling out and defense, but of course I and other Thomists have spelled them out and defended them in detail many times.)  The distinctively Christian theological problem is that God is Trinitarian -- three divine Persons in one substance -- and thus cannot be characterized as “a person” on pain of heresy.  (As Davies has pointed out, it seems that the first time the English language formula “God is a person” appears in the history of Christian theology is in the 1644 heresy trial, in Gloucester, England, of someone named John Biddle -- where the formula was condemned as implying Unitarianism.) 

So, the reason Davies labels the rejection of classical theism “theistic personalism” is not that he thinks God is impersonal.  The reason is rather that he takes theistic personalists to start with the idea that God is a particular instance of the general kind “person” and to go from there.  And this, he thinks, is what leads them to draw conclusions incompatible with classical theism, such as that God is (like the persons we’re familiar with in everyday experience) changeable, temporal, made up of parts, etc.  To reject theistic personalism, then, is not a matter of regarding God as impersonal, but rather a matter of rejecting the idea that God is a particular instance of the kind “person,” or of any other kind for that matter.  (For example, though classical theists certainly regard God as the uncaused cause of the world, they do not think that this is correctly to be understood as the claim that God is a particular instance of the general kind “cause.”) 

Now, I have found over the years that even though I have repeated these points many, many times, some critics of classical theism still constantly mischaracterize the dispute between classical theism and theistic personalism as a dispute over whether God is personal or impersonal.  It is regrettable that Craig, who is a serious scholar and an intellectually honest one, would perpetuate this misunderstanding.  I don’t believe for a moment that Craig is intentionally mischaracterizing the classical theist position.  I hope these remarks will clear the air on that issue once and for all, at least for Prof. Craig and his readers.

Divine simplicity

In characterizing the doctrine of divine simplicity, Craig gives the impression that the doctrine involves, among other things, the claims that we can only make negative predications of God, that we can make only analogical predictions of God rather than univocal ones, that analogical predications are non-literal, and that we not only have to be agnostic about God’s nature but that God has no essence.  None of this is correct.

First, while some adherents of the doctrine of divine simplicity (such as Maimonides) are committed to a purely negative theology, most are not.  Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, et al. certainly agree that we can make positive as well as negative affirmations about the divine nature.

Second, while Thomists hold that all language about God has to be understood in an analogical rather than univocal way, not all classical theists or adherents of the doctrine of divine simplicity would say that.  For example, Scotists both affirm divine simplicity and hold that theological language is univocal.  Of course, we Thomists regard this Scotist position as unstable, but the point is that it is (contrary to the impression given by Craig) simply not the case that the debate over divine simplicity is as such a debate over whether theological language ought to be understood in an analogical rather than univocal way.

Third, when Thomists say that theological language ought to be understood analogically, they do NOT mean that it ought to be understood non-literally.  To suppose otherwise is to confuse analogical language with metaphorical language.  And not all analogical language is metaphorical.  For example, according to the Thomist view about analogical language, when I say that the enchilada I had for dinner last night was good, that William Lane Craig writes good books, and that William Lane Craig is a good man, I am not using the word “good” in the same, univocal sense.  Rather, I am saying that there is something in the food which is analogous to the goodness of the books, something in the books which is analogous to the goodness of a man, and so forth, even if it is not exactly the same thing in each case.  But I am not speaking non-literally or metaphorically in any of these cases either.   Similarly, when Thomists say that there is in God something that is analogous to what we call “goodness” in us, something analogous to what we call “power” in us, etc., they are not saying that God is good, powerful, etc. in only a non-literal or metaphorical sense.  (The idea that Thomists regard talk about God as “just a metaphor” is another unfortunately very common and very annoying misunderstanding.)

Fourth, neither the doctrine of divine simplicity nor the Thomist understanding of it entails that God has no essence.  On the contrary, Thomists hold that God’s essence just is pure actuality or subsistent being itself.  The claim is rather that, unlike everything else that exists, God does not have an essence distinct from his existence.  (The reason is that, if he did have an essence distinct from his existence, then he would be composed of metaphysical parts and thus require a cause, i.e. something independent of him which accounts for how those metaphysical parts are combined so as to compose the whole.) 

Fifth, if the Thomist were saying that God has no essence, then it would follow that we would have to be “agnostic” about God, would have to regard him as entirely “incomprehensible,” etc. (as Craig says the Thomist view implies).  For you can hardly understand something that has no essence or nature to be understood.  But again, that is not what the Thomist says.  To be sure, Thomists do say that God is “incomprehensible” in the sense that our minds -- accustomed as they are to understanding things by analyzing them or breaking them down into their constituent parts -- have great difficulty grasping the nature of that which is utterly simple or non-composite.  But the incomprehensibility here derives, not from any unintelligibility in God (as it would if God had no essence), but rather from the limitations on our finite intellects

Then there is Craig’s claim that there is just “no reason to accept” the idea that God is subsistent being itself rather than a being.  This simply ignores, without answering, the traditional Thomist arguments to the effect that if God is other than subsistent being itself, then it would follow that there is a distinction between God’s essence and his existence, in which case he would be composite and thus require a cause of his own -- in which case he would not be God.  (Neo-Platonists, Aristotelians, and other classical theists would give other, related arguments for similar conclusions.)  The doctrine of divine simplicity, its defenders claim, far from being some odd and unmotivated fifth wheel that philosophers have for no good reason tacked on to the Christian idea of God, in fact follows necessarily from an analysis of the claim that God is the uncaused cause or ultimate explanation of everything other than himself.  It is, they maintain, a logical concomitant of theism, and its denial is thus tantamount to atheism.  Craig no doubt disagrees with this, but he does not even engage the key arguments, much less refute them.

Miscellaneous issues

Craig also makes a number of further claims which are very strange.  For example, he says that whereas the Bible describes God as holy, loving, a creator who knows us and causes us, etc., “all these things are denied by Thomism.”  This is simply a bizarre claim.  I know of no Thomist who would deny any of these things.  Indeed, every Thomist I know of would staunchly affirm each of these attributes.  Perhaps what Craig means is that whatever the intentions of Thomists themselves, Thomism implies a denial of these attributes.  But if that is what is meant, then it is a mere undefended, question-begging assertion. 

Craig also gives the impression that Thomists accuse non-Thomists in general of denying the doctrine of divine conservation.  Furthermore, though Craig himself does not deny that Thomists believe in miracles, some listeners might get that impression from what he and his interviewer say about the issue of divine “intervention.”  These are also serious misunderstandings.  For one thing, neither I nor any other Thomist or classical theist that I know of has ever denied that many non-Thomists, and indeed even many theistic personalists, affirm the doctrine of divine conservation.  For another, no Thomist that I know of denies that God causes miracles to occur.  As I have said many times (e.g. here), the question about whether God “intervenes” is rather a question about whether a miracle ought to be understood on the model of the action of a machinist who tinkers with the operation of a machine that is otherwise running along on its own.  (The problem here is in part that the question to which Craig was responding was badly formulated, with the questioner sloppily running together issues that need to be carefully disentangled.)

Finally, Craig suggests -- in commenting on a reader’s questions about Herbert McCabe’s formulation of the Thomist conception of God -- that an empty spirituality, along with a rejection of miracles, of divine providence, and of traditional Christian morality, is inevitable if one accepts McCabe’s position.  He also suggests that there are “non-intellectual” and “emotional” factors lurking behind the reader’s question.  It is hard to know what to say in response to the first claim other than to point out that it is mostly just an undefended and sweeping assertion (and, where an argument is implied, also presupposes a caricature of McCabe’s position).  It is hard to know what to say in response to the second claim other than to point out that it seems an ad hominem piece of long-distance psychoanalysis. 

But again, since this is an informal and conversational context, I think we ought to cut Craig some slack.  It is also only fair to note that Craig directs his listeners to his book (co-written with J. P. Moreland) Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview, wherein his criticisms of divine simplicity are developed in a more systematic way.  In the same spirit, I direct my own readers to my forthcoming book Five Proofs of the Existence of God, which (among other things) includes a detailed and systematic defense of divine simplicity against Plantinga, Craig, et al.  (More on that in due time.  In the meantime, I also direct your attention to an earlier post on Craig and divine simplicity, and other posts on the dispute between classical theism and theistic personalism.)

245 comments:

  1. @David M:
    "You seem to think you've had an epiphany about Ed and his blog and professional work. I think it was a pseudo-epiphany. I think it should be obvious to all that Ed cares about "soteriological significance."

    I'm not expert in many things, but knowing when I was talking out my arse is one of them. It may be obvious to you and everyone else, and y'all may be right, but based on what *I* have read here, I made an unsafe inference about Ed's broader views on this here religion/spirituality thing.

    Sheesh. Can't a man make a complete blunder without people telling him it's not as bad as he thought!

    @Glenn:
    "3. Strictly speaking, it is not necessary to go from, say, San Diego to Los Angeles by way of Baltimore."

    Sorry, I think I took a wrong turn in Dublin.

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  2. Craig told me a few years ago that as far as he knew, no one had refuted Nielsen's argument for the incoherence of the concept of God. Which seems a very strange and ironic thing for him, of all people, to say (it was a public exchange on facebook).

    Anyway, Nielsen also even argues that, given our standards for conceptual apprehension, the concept of God cannot even be legitimately learned.

    The argument is covered in both Nielsen's 1990 2nd edition of Ethics Without God, and also his 2005 Atheism And Philosophy, which differs from his 1985 Philosophy and Atheism only in the massive preface that was added. I'd like to see some professional philosophers analyze both of those arguments, and especially since he's arguing against a non-anthropomorphic concept of God, someone coming from a Thomistic perspective.

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  3. @machinephilosophy: "Craig told me a few years ago that as far as he knew, no one had refuted Nielsen's argument for the incoherence of the concept of God. Which seems a very strange and ironic thing for him, of all people, to say (it was a public exchange on facebook)."

    What a small world. :) I brought up Nielsen just the other day.

    "Anyway, Nielsen also even argues that, given our standards for conceptual apprehension, the concept of God cannot even be legitimately learned."

    Any relation to the argument put forth by Haldane by way of Geach against Smart in *Atheism and Theism* about us not being able to learn any concepts at all, "given our standards for conceptual apprehension"?

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  4. The Divine is One, but not in the sense of an Object or Subject. When all concentration,exclusion, separation, union, limitation, experience, knowledge, appearance, perception, form, action, location, cognition, vision, psyche, process, and exclamation cease to define the Consciousness, only this One is Realized.
    The Divine is Paradox, Sacrifice, Reality, Ignorance, Unqualified Radiance, Undefined Consciousness, World-only,Truth-only, No-Thing, ALL.

    The Divine is the Condition of all conditions; That from which all conditions arise;That of which all conditions are the objectification or modification; That which permeates all conditions; That which is prior to all conditions; That which includes all relations and to which no relations point, since it is not Other but Prior; That which is not Subject or Self, since it is Absolute but not apart: That from which no living being may be differentiated, except it may seem to be so in the case of the never ending supply of delusion by any kind of presumed knowledge, or experience.

    Truth, the Beloved, the Real, is our own Nature and Condition. We stand eternally in the unqualified and presently indescribable Realm and Radiant Form of the Beloved, the Heart.

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  5. @Tony: Ah, well, if you were any kind of medievalist... (it's Raymond, not Robert).

    I think Dostoevski's character's remark is revealing of a strain of obscurantism, popular perhaps in Russian/Orthodox spirituality. And Weil's remark should clarify the truth about Christ and truth (and thus also about the Trinity and truth). I should think it goes without saying that there's always more work to be done.

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  6. St. John of the Cross explains, and Garrigou-Lagrange develops the point, that while mystical experiences are God's to give or not give, it is part of the ordinary development in the spiritual life if one lives an upright life and makes a habit of meditative / contemplative prayer. That is to say, by and large He does give it, at His pleasure:
    " 'Turn to me, and I will turn to you,' says the Lord."


    The contemplative way presupposes serious ascesis and mortification, and is full of the traps of temptation and delusion, into which many lamentably fall. It is very hard to travel that way, and very few manage to reach its end - the state of pure prayer above which is only the prayer that cannot be prayed. Don't raise your bar too high and don't dream of receiving extraordinary graces, just strive to climb step by step the ladder of virtues, and pray God to help you resist all the snares, and give Him glory.

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  7. @Kyle
    St. John of the Cross explains, and Garrigou-Lagrange develops the point, that while mystical experiences are God's to give or not give, it is part of the ordinary development in the spiritual life if one lives an upright life and makes a habit of meditative / contemplative prayer. That is to say, by and large He does give it, at His pleasure:
    " 'Turn to me, and I will turn to you,' says the Lord."


    The contemplative way presupposes serious ascesis and mortification, and is full of the traps of temptation and delusion, into which many lamentably fall. It is very hard to travel that way, and very few manage to reach its end - the state of pure prayer above which is only the prayer "that cannot be prayed". Don't raise your bar too high and don't dream of receiving extraordinary graces, just strive to climb step by step the ladder of virtues and pray God to help you resist all the snares. And give Him glory.

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  8. @Tony Llull is famous in the way Lagrange is famous--to the right audience it's a name drop. Nothing like a truly famous person, like a Kardashian, of course! :)

    Bl. Raymond Llull (lots of variant spellings, I typically use Lull) comes up in matters Franciscan and mystical. He's across enemy lines on a Thomist blog, naturally! But he's worth a look for historical interest at the least.

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  9. @Erich: I would refer you to the article I cited (it would appear the answer is yes). A perhaps even more(!) famous Raymond who held a similar view is Raymond Sebond (famous today mostly because of Montaigne).

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  10. (it's Raymond, not Robert).

    Of course it's Raymond, and not Robert -- just like it's theology, and not philosophy. He who misnames ought not complain (or have a complaint lodged on his behalf) about himself being misnamed. ;)

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  11. @Tony: Ah, well, if you were any kind of medievalist...

    DavidM, I AM a kind of a medievalist. What kind? A very, very bad one. As you can see. :-)
    (cf: "I'm a very good man, just a bad wizard.")

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  12. @ Tony, Tony, Tony. Evil doesn't constitute a specific difference in things, else a good man and a bad man would be different species (I-II Q18 a5)! Come now, even a BAD Thomist knows that! :)

    Try to get some play out of that joke anywhere but here...

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  13. "Pick a name ... any name", he said.

    "Or, one will be assigned to you."

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  14. Well I suppose everyone is some kind of medievalist (or 'dark-age-ist,' as some might prefer to put it), but in that case Tony is hardly exceptionally bad (rather, considerably better than average).

    For Mary, I wonder if the oddity of this view about God really changing, from eternal to omni-temporal, can be brought out by comparing it to the view that God changed from being omnipresent to being locally present (in Christ). Maybe it's easier to see that that view is silly, that Christ's corporeal local presence can't take away from his divine omnipresence. Or, that his finite human knowledge/power can't change/impair his infinite divine knowledge/power. (And then we can get to eternity, unity, simplicity.)

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  15. Rob,

    Question: Whether a good man can be a bad wizard

    Answer: It may be said of a man that he is a bad wizard in either of two ways.

    In the first way, it may be said of the man who is both a wizard and a bad man; in the second way, it may be said of the man who is bad at being a wizard.

    Regarding the first way, since a good man is not a bad man, and a bad wizard is a bad mad (who is also a wizard), it follows that a good man cannot be a bad wizard.

    Regarding the second way, a good man does not practice wizardry, so a good man neither acquires the habits nor cultivates the skills which would qualify him as being good at being a wizard; since he who is not good at being a wizard is bad at being a wizard, it follows that a good man can be, indeed will be, a bad wizard.

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  16. @David M – thanks; I can't find a thing I'm afraid.

    Is it safe to say then that there is no explicit philosophical argument for the trinity which has any currency?

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  17. @laubadetriste said...
    "And now you've got Kyle seemingly thinking you're making a genuine point about mysticism."

    Awwwwaw. I did an'all. I'm so disappointed.

    "Where's the rolled-up newspaper when I need it..."

    Sigh. Not again.
    [Leans over and accepts, with as much good grace as he can muster, his well-deserved smack on the head.]

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  18. @Mihai:
    "The contemplative way presupposes serious ascesis and mortification, and is full of the traps of temptation and delusion, into which many lamentably fall. It is very hard to travel that way, and very few manage to reach its end - the state of pure prayer above which is only the prayer "that cannot be prayed". Don't raise your bar too high and don't dream of receiving extraordinary graces, just strive to climb step by step the ladder of virtues and pray God to help you resist all the snares. And give Him glory."

    That’s really fascinating. It sounds like you have traveled at least some way along the path you mention and in fact, you mention its end, so it sounds like you may have even gone all the way? That's awesome! Could you answer a few practical questions?

    * What was it like — that "state of pure prayer above which is only the prayer 'that cannot be prayed’”?
    * You quoted that phrase — what is the original source?
    * Could you give some examples of the ascesis and mortification you encountered on your way?
    * What is the difference between those (ascesis and mortifications) versus "traps and delusion"?
    * On raising the bar too high, how did you avoid that pitfall? (Or did you get it wrong to begin with and learned the hard way!? :-) )
    * I’m not sure which extraordinary graces you mean. What are they? Is it just the extraordinary ones I need to not dream of, or is dreaming of any graces an issue?
    * And can you say more about the ladder of virtues and the snares?
    * Overall, what is your spiritual life like, now that you are one of the few to reach its end? And has it affected your "non-spiritual" life (your job, relationships, etc)?

    I’ve never actually come across anyone alive (as opposed to some of old-but-dead Saints) who is actually acquainted with this kind of contemplative stuff, so I’d really appreciate your guidance with the above. I know you’ll have some good things to say since you applauded Ed earlier when you said:

    "[Ed’s] efforts have been mainly directed towards [those]…who assertively spread their opinions on matters with which
    they are in fact not acquainted even at the elementary level."


    thanks!

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  19. @Kyle
    Unfortunately I'm just a sinful and undeserving philosophy teacher facing the challenges of ordinary life in "the world", not competent to guide you on that path. I warmly recommend you to search for a spiritual father, who would certainly be able to know what you need and what is better for your spiritual growth. My "knowledge" on the subject is generally limited to what I was told in the Church and to the information I got by reading various devotional and ascetic texts, being Eastern Orthodox I am somehow more acquainted with the Eastern Orthodox ones (I read some Catholic ones too). For explanations and clarifications you may want to look e.g. on some Philokalic texts, they are especially addressed to people thoroughly dedicated to contemplative life (monks). The reference to the pure prayer and the prayer "that cannot be prayed" is from St. Isaac the Syrian's ascetical homilies.

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  20. @Erich: I don't know of one, but that doesn't make it safe to conclude there isn't one. It may be relevant to note that Raymond Lull's view has been officially rejected by the Church (he was apparently a brilliant writer, and a martyr, who would likely have been canonized if he hadn't made this blunder), so...

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  21. @Mihai:
    I'm confused. As I pointed out, you'd previously said, I assumed approvingly:
    "[Ed’s] efforts have been mainly directed towards [those]…who assertively spread their opinions on matters with which they are in fact not acquainted even at the elementary level."

    But now you're saying:
    'My "knowledge" on the subject is generally limited to what I was told in the Church and to the information I got by reading...'

    Forgive me, but in that case it sounds like you're merely repeating what others have told you. Doesn't that make all the stuff you said tantamount to little more than you merely assertively spreading your opinions on matters with which you are in fact not acquainted even at the elementary level?

    And so, aren't you doing the very same thing the correction of which (given that that's what you feel Ed was doing) you appear to approve?

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  22. @Glenn:
    "...a good man does not practice wizardry,..."

    See, this is a perfect example of how all this philosophizeicationism (it is too a word) is often just straw.

    Gareth Edwards, Sugar Ray Robinson, Yehudi Menuhin, the bloke who makes the vanilla slices in the bakery near my house. Those wizards are good men. *Don't* tell me they're not good men. I won't have it.

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  23. @Rob, Glenn, & Kyle:

    Y'all gone done made me laugh. And that caused me to hit some wrong keys, creating typos in the program I was writing. These typos have caused mistakes in NORAD / Pentagon missile control systems, resulting in a possible completely unpredictable unauthorized total launch. Leading to the end of the world. Now, aren't you just a little ashamed of yourselves!?

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  24. Kyle,

    @Glenn:
    "...a good man does not practice wizardry,..."

    See, this is a perfect example of how all this philosophizeicationism (it is too a word) is often just straw.

    Gareth Edwards, Sugar Ray Robinson, Yehudi Menuhin, the bloke who makes the vanilla slices in the bakery near my house. Those wizards are good men. *Don't* tell me they're not good men. I won't have it.


    Good point. I now see the light. (Oh, btw -- you forgot to mention Thomas Edison.)

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  25. Tony,

    Pentagon missile control systems, resulting in a possible completely unpredictable unauthorized total launch. Leading to the end of the world. Now, aren't you just a little ashamed of yourselves!?

    Yes, I am (though not for long).

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  26. @Tony I teach adolescents at a boys school. Ashamed of the consequences of my actions? I couldn't be more proud of myself!

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  27. @Kyle: "Sigh. Not again. / [Leans over and accepts, with as much good grace as he can muster, his well-deserved smack on the head.]"

    Well, I meant to smack Mr. Disease Sin Evil Death deny Good Omnipotent God Life Matter is Nothing All Being Spirit God Mind is Good Good is God all in All is God; but I suppose, you having the taste in television that you do, you likely are also an enthusiast of le vice anglais, and a rolled-up newspaper might be salutary.

    @Erich:

    I don't know the answer to your question. However, I have heard some good things about these books.

    And I would add that *currency* would be low on my list of things to look for in a philosophical argument.

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  28. @Kyle
    I did nothing else but to reply in a humble, Christian manner, to an obvious, sulfur-smelling, provocation by telling you that if you need guidance in your ascetic endeavours you should search for someone having the authority to teach you on that path, i.e. a spiritual father, just as if you wanted to learn philosophy I would have offered to teach you myself (which for someone like you would certainly be for no small fee), as I have the authority to do it. If I stopped your singing of childish rhymes by explaining you that the things are far more complicated than you dream, you should have realized that I spoke from knowledge and not from ignorance. How much that knowledge of mine is immediate and how much mediate is certainly not of your business.
    Have a nice weekend!

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  29. Protestants I meet seem to mean God the Father when they use the word "God." They'll say that Jesus is the Son of God. But I haven't heard them call Him "God the Son." So they might ask, "Dr. Feser, why would anyone doubt that God is a person when there are three divine Persons in the Trinity?" "God" is not a proper name.

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  30. @Mihai
    "I did nothing else but to reply in a humble, Christian manner,..."

    Really? That's all you did? You don't think there's a bit more to it than that?
    I know. Why don't we go find out? No? Aw, c'm'on, it'll be fun!

    [Kicks horse to pretend it's not already dead...]

    So, you started off with what I think most readers would have seen as a critical comment about "wannabe philosophers and theologians, who assertively spread their opinions on matters with which they are in fact not acquainted even at the elementary level." More to the point though, you implied that the main purpose of Ed's writing is correcting such people. And you did that in the context of the point I'd made, where I described my realization that I had made an unsafe assumption about Ed's purposes. In other words it looked quite possible that you were making the very same error I had. You appear to feel you understand Ed's *motives*, in addition to (I assume) his *philosophy*.

    Now of course, maybe you *do*. Maybe you know Ed. Or maybe you've read more of his stuff than I have. To test that[1] I then led you in a line of questioning that would perhaps throw some more light on this. You were critical of those speaking about that of which they know nothing. You then spoke about something of which in my experience the vast majority of people know nothing. However, I do know of a very small number whose descriptions and behaviors are such that I suspect they may be different, so I wanted to check to see if perhaps you were like them. Hence my question, *and* it's provocative nature.

    The people I'm referring to would have responded very differently from you, in two ways. First, they would have offered information that I *suspect* (I'm not sure this kind of thing is particularly describable at all) would have exposed their direct experience; second, they would not have risen angrily to the provocation, would not have claimed humility, and would certainly not have made strange references to how "someone like [me]" would have to pay you a high teaching fee, or to how I sing .. what was it?...childish rhymes, or, strangest of all, to the "sulfur-smelling" (whatever that means) nature of what I'd said. Nor would they have assumed anything about how complicated my dreams are.

    The old saying, that to "assume" makes an ass out of "u" and me, applies. But *I* had already acknowledged the "me" side of the ass-edness....


    [1] Well what did you expect? You don't go to a boxing gym to learn to do crocheting, do you? We're in the combox of the blog of an analytic scholastic philosopher remember, not a church therapy group. That Is The Whole Point.

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  31. @laubadetriste:
    "...having the taste in television that you do, you likely are also an enthusiast of le vice anglais, and a
    rolled-up newspaper might be salutary."


    I was all ready with a witty come-back to the effect that I preferred la crème anglaise, but then realized that particular phrase was ill-advised given the context. But *then* I realized that any kind of...ahem...come-back could end up with me having...sigh...egg on my face. I should probably stop here. Ed's blog is, after all, intended to be "...from a traditional Roman Catholic perspective".

    (Besides: I never said I *liked* Father Ted.)

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  32. @Kyle: "I was all ready with a witty come-back to the effect that I preferred la crème anglaise, but then realized that particular phrase was ill-advised given the context. But *then* I realized that any kind of...ahem...come-back could end up with me having...sigh...egg on my face. I should probably stop here. Ed's blog is, after all, intended to be '...from a traditional Roman Catholic perspective'."

    You are quite right. :) Which is why I switched to French, that being the contemporary American equivalent of what they used to do for the English public schools, which was translate the choice bits of (e.g.) Martial into Italian...

    "(Besides: I never said I *liked* Father Ted.)"

    What subtle misdirection. You also never said you didn't. *Sigh.* Very well, now *I* like the show, so you have that on your conscience.

    "'I did nothing else but to reply in a humble, Christian manner,...' / Really? That's all you did? You don't think there's a bit more to it than that?"

    Brandon said earlier that, "These are very gentle ways of crying foul. On occasions when people around here get personal, the slapdown is, shall we say, much more vehement than this." He was quite right. I won't quote chapter and verse on that--for that purpose, I'm afraid French would be insufficient--but the stuff on this post is truly mild.

    Around here, when folks are done the courtesy of having their words taken seriously, the acrimony is, especially by internet com-box standards, very creative, intelligent, and even restrained (and I do not exclude the wilder disputes we have been party to). It is *interesting*. In point of fact, other than the regular drive-bys, we do not suffer the nullity of a race to the bottom.

    "Another minute and it uttered his name again; and then, like a minute gun, 'Ransom ... Ransom ... Ransom,' perhaps a hundred times. / 'What the Hell do you want?' he roared at last. 'Nothing,' said the voice. Next time he determined not to answer; but when it had called on him about a thousand times he found himself answering whether he would or no, and 'Nothing,' came the reply. He taught himself to keep silent in the end: not that the torture of resisting his impulse to speak was less than the torture of response but because something with him rose up to combat the tormentor's assurance that he must yield in the end. If the attack had been of some more violent kind it might have been easier to resist. What chilled and almost cowed him was the union of malice with something nearly childish. For temptation, for blasphemy, for a whole battery of horrors, he was in some sort prepared: but hardly for this petty, indefatigable nagging as of a nasty little boy at a preparatory school. Indeed no imagined horror could have surpassed the sense which grew within him as the slow hours passed, that this creature was, by all human standards, inside out - its heart on the surface and its shallowness at the heart. On the surface, great designs and an antagonism to Heaven which involved the fate of worlds: but deep within, when every veil had been pierced, was there, after all, nothing but a black puerility, an aimless empty spitefulness content to sate itself with the tiniest cruelties, as love does not disdain the smallest kindness?"--Perelandra

    @Mihai: "...an obvious, sulfur-smelling, provocation..."

    Heh. :) See? ↑That's a delightful phrase. Kyle, you know what "sulfur-smelling" means. Or if not, you should, because it's a triple-entendre.

    I do hope Mary comes back. She seemed like a keeper. A bit quick to intimidate rather than argue--"I take 'metaphysical parts' to be a conceptual primitive" indeed--but a keeper all the same.

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  33. @laubadetriste said...
    "@Mihai:'...an obvious, sulfur-smelling, provocation...'

    Heh. :) See? ↑That's a delightful phrase. Kyle, you know what "sulfur-smelling" means. Or if not, you should, because it's a triple-entendre."

    But wh...? So are you say...? Do you mea...? Whu?

    (But this horse is now well and truly dead, so don't feel obliged to tolerate me a second more. Well, not in this post's combox anyway. ;-) )

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  34. Is anyone else still hoping Craig picks up on this and tries to respond? It could be a learning experience for him. I think WLC simply has a psychological bias against Divine Simplicity as I have said. I do not state that in any pejorative sense. Divine simplicity doesn't fit well with preconceptions arrived at from a literalist biblical exegesis. There is also the old, and inaccurate view among some Protestants that Catholicism somehow got polluted by pagan doctrine, as if Greek philosophy wasn't being approached discerningly by Christians(this is a kind of mythology, like the inaccurate view some held about the medieval period after the enlightenment).

    I do wish Ed would speak a little more on this topic but of course he is a busy man.

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  35. .
    '...when I say that the enchilada I had for dinner last night was good, that William Lane Craig writes good books, and that William Lane Craig is a good man, I am not using the word good in the same, univocal sense. Rather, I am saying that there is something in the food which is analogous to the goodness of the books, something in the books which is analogous to the goodness of a man, and so forth, even if it is not exactly the same thing in each case.'

    Based on the OED's statement that good is 'the most general adjective of commendation', the first sentence above would be read as saying that the enchilada, Craig's books, and Craig himself, are all thought praiseworthy by Prof. Feser. This interpretation feels natural to me.

    What I'm not following is how the sentence would be read as asserting an analogy between things in the food, books, and man. Rather, goodness seems to be a relationship between each of them and its assessor...in the same way that beauty can link an object and its beholder.

    This line of thought can scarcely be novel; I'd welcome pointers to any helpful discussions.

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  36. 'What I'm not following is how the sentence would be read as asserting an analogy between things in the food, books, and man.'

    The word 'in' is not meant here in a substantive sense, which is what seems to be confusing you. Goodness is a quality, not a substance. Though he does not use this word, that is what Ed means when he says that there's something in the food which is in Craig's books and Craig himself, namely goodness. His claim is that it is not exactly the same kind of goodness that's in these things, which seems obvious to me anyway, but which follows rigorously from the doctrine of the analogy of being.

    Since the food is not identical to the books which are not identical to the man, we cannot predicate the same thing of each of them in a univocal sense (i.e., in precisely the same sense), not even existence, since the goodness of the food only exists in relation, as you've pointed out to how a minimally nutritive soul finds it good to its health; the goodness of the books can only be evaluated by a minimally rational soul; and the goodness of the man (moral goodness) applies only to rational beings. So, that is what it all means: there's a quality possessed by these things, and these qualities are similar, yet not entirely identical.

    This is the doctrine of the analogy of being, from which the more well-known merely linguistic doctrine of the same name properly follow.

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  37. Kirk: 'What I'm not following is how the sentence would be read as asserting an analogy between things 'in' the food, books, and man.'

    @Philip Alawonde: The word 'in' is not meant here in a substantive sense... Goodness is a quality, not a substance.


    I hadn't thought 'in' was meant in a substantive sense, but I believe your introduction of quality helps clarify the issue. My problem is precisely with identifying a sense in which 'goodness' is a quality. I have an idea what is mean by qualities like redness, hardness, and kindness, but I don't seem to have such an intuition about 'goodness' .

    If good is the most general adjective of commendation, then saying 'x is good' means essentially 'I commend x'. Perhaps x could then be said to have the quality of commended-ness, but it's hard to see how this is helpful.

    To go a layer deeper into the OED: good means 'Having in adequate degree those properties which a thing of the kind ought to have.' I think we can assume that property equals quality. Then 'x, y, and z are good' would mean Each of x, y, and z possesses, to a degree that satisfies me, the qualities I believe a thing of its kind ought to have.

    From this point of view:

    a. Goodness is a derived quality. A thing has goodness if each quality on a certain list is present in an adequate degree. The list and the adequacy-cutoff points both depend on (1) the thing's kind and (2) the judgment of the speaker.

    b. Saying there's an analogy between 'the goodness thing' in different objects seems to mean it's both the same and different. It's the same because goodness always has a list-and-degrees derivation. It's different because the qualities on the list vary between kinds and between assessors.

    If point (a) captures the intent in saying that the food, books, and man are all good, and (b) captures the idea of analogy between the goodnesses 'in' them, then I think I've grasped the original statement. But if either misses the mark I'd welcome explanation and elaboration.

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  38. To go a layer deeper into the OED: good means 'Having in adequate degree those properties which a thing of the kind ought to have.' I think we can assume that property equals quality. Then 'x, y, and z are good' would mean Each of x, y, and z possesses, to a degree that satisfies me, the qualities I believe a thing of its kind ought to have.

    Kirk, this is fine, but it is possible to go still another layer deeper. There is something in virtue of which we can say of two things - both of which are suitably fulfilled as the kind of thing they are supposed to be - that one is better than the other. A raspberry bush is a better thing than a water molecule. A dog is a better thing than a raspberry tree. And an angel is a better thing than a dog. Each of these is true because in each comparison, one has more to be good about than the other. A healthy, vibrant raspberry bush has all the perfections of a water molecule, and still more perfections. Same with a healthy, happy dog. The dog has the goods of life and nutrition, but adds the goods of sensation and movement. The greater good in the dog is true not merely in virtue of the fact of having in adequate degree the properties of a fulfilled dog, but in virtue of having more layers and kinds of good to be good in than a bush or a molecule.

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  39. .
    @Tony There is something in virtue of which we can say of two things - both of which are suitably fulfilled as the kind of thing they are supposed to be - that one is better than the other…. [O]ne has more to be good about than the other.

    That isn't an application of 'better' that I've come across in common use.

    If someone says "This dog is better than that dog" I reckon he might mean this dog is faster, or calmer, or louder-barking, or better at fetching newspapers. I know he's assessing the two dogs against criteria that are important to him.

    But if he says "This dog is better than that raspberry bush", then I'm stumped. I don't know what it means to compare things of such different kinds, and I suspect my reaction is shared by most.

    The OED tells us that good is the most general adjective of commendation. I infer that you commend things more highly when they comprise more layers and kinds of sub-things. I also take it that you would commend this view to others. I'd be interested in learning your reasons for favoring it.

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  40. Kirk,

    'My problem is precisely with identifying a sense in which 'goodness' is a quality. I have an idea what is mean by qualities like redness, hardness, and kindness, but I don't seem to have such an intuition about 'goodness'.'

    I hinted at an explanation in my previous comment, but to appreciate it fully, you'd have to understand the Thomistic Natural Law Theory. It's in that sense that Ed uses the word.

    So, as I said above, a minimally vegetative being will find a food good to the extent that the food serves to nourish it; a minimally intelligent being would find a book good to the extent that the book communicates its ideas in a clear way and serves to increase the understanding of its reader; and a man is said to be good in Natural Law Theory to the extent that he fulfills his purpose as man, which is ultimately to know God. The more a man approaches this goal, the better he's said to be.

    Now all this needs a lot of background and further clearing before it can be somewhat appreciated. Luckily, Edward had dealt with the subject of natural law, morality, goodness, etc. in several places, even on this blog. You may want to check them out.

    Cheers!

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  41. Now all this needs a lot of background and further clearing before it can be somewhat appreciated.

    Philip… Sounds like a tall order; I'll chip away at it. Thanks for your responses.

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  42. Philip… Sounds like a tall order; I'll chip away at it. Thanks for your responses.

    Welcome, welcome, Kirk, but there's no royal road to Wisdom. happy chipping!

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  43. What would you make of the truthmaker account of God's attributes? Meaning, the truth of some statement "God is X" is grounded in God himself, so that God is identical to that which makes him X, not X itself. So really, its just like saying God is identical with himself.

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  44. @Tony

    Is there something online you can point me to that elaborates on this? This is one of the areas I'm having a difficult time grasping. Thanks, in advance, for your assistance.

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  45. " I don’t like the label theistic personalism. This is not a historic label for a person who is not a Thomist. Personalism was an early 20th century philosophy exemplified by a thinker like Borden Parker Bowne. I think it is misleading to make up labels like theistic personalism and attach those to those who don’t hold to Thomism."

    Craig says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you claim he said at the beginning of the article.

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