Saturday, January 30, 2016

Debased Coynage


I had a lot to say about Jerry Coyne’s Faith versus Fact in my First Things review of the book, but much more could be said.  The reason is not that there is so much of interest in Coyne’s book, but rather because there is so little.  I was not being rhetorical when I said in my review that it might be the worst book yet published in the New Atheist genre.  It really is that awful, and goes wrong so thoroughly and so frequently that it would take a much longer review than I had space for fully to catalog its foibles.  An especially egregious example is Coyne’s treatment of Alvin Plantinga’s “evolutionary argument against naturalism” (or EAAN).

Keep in mind that I have myself been critical of Plantinga’s argument.  To be sure, I think that the general style of argument of which Plantinga’s is an instance -- what Victor Reppert calls the “argument from reason,” and which has been defended in different versions by thinkers as diverse as C. S. Lewis and Karl Popper -- is very good, and very important.  But I am not a fan of Plantinga’s way of stating it.  His emphasis on the weighing of probabilities is completely irrelevant to the main point of an “argument from reason,” and muddies the waters.  He conflates teleology and design in a way no Aristotelian or Thomist would.  And the argument is not as directly relevant to defending theism (as opposed to critiquing naturalism, which is a different issue) as Plantinga implies.  (See my discussion of the EAAN in a post from a few years ago and in my First Things review of Plantinga’s book Where the Conflict Really Lies.) 

All the same, Coyne’s criticisms are cringe-makingly incompetent.  Plantinga argues that natural selection will favor adaptive behavior whether or not it stems from true beliefs, so that evolution cannot by itself account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties.  (Again, see the articles linked to for more detailed discussion of Plantinga’s argument.)  One problem with Coyne’s discussion is that he characterizes the EAAN as a “god of the gaps” argument (Faith versus Fact, p. 178).  But it is not that at all.  It would be a “god of the gaps” argument if Plantinga were claiming that some purely naturalistic process might in principle account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties, but that it is more probable that God created them.  But that is not his argument.  His argument is precisely that a purely naturalistic process cannot even in principle account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties.  (True, Plantinga speaks of probabilities, but he is not saying that it is merely probable that naturalism cannot account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties.  Rather, he is saying that naturalistic processes cannot in principle by themselves give any of our beliefs more than a fifty-fifty chance of being true.) 

Whether or not one agrees that Plantinga has really shown this, Coyne doesn’t even understand the nature of Plantinga’s reasoning.  Like other philosophically unsophisticated New Atheist types, he seems to think that every anti-atheist argument simply must be a lame “god of the gaps” argument, and thus reads that style of reasoning into Plantinga.

Second, Coyne claims that Plantinga’s position is that “humans could never have true beliefs about anything without God’s intervention” (p. 177, emphasis in the original).  But that is not what Plantinga says.  He never denies that we might have some true beliefs if naturalism were true.  Indeed, he doesn’t deny that we might have many true beliefs, maybe even mostly true beliefs, if naturalism were true.  What he says is rather that if naturalism is true, then we cannot have any reason to believe that our beliefs are true.  They may or may not be true, but we could never be justified in thinking that they are.  He isn’t saying: “Naturalism entails that all our beliefs are false.”  Rather, he is saying: “Naturalism entails that we cannot know whether any of our beliefs are true.”  The reason is that neither their truth nor their falsity would be relevant to the behavior associated with them, and it is the behavior alone which (Plantinga argues) natural selection can mold.

Third, Coyne thinks it a serious criticism to point out that even if the EAAN works, it wouldn’t establish “Plantinga’s Christian God as opposed to any other god” (p. 179).  This is a silly objection for two reasons.  First, it is an attack upon a straw man, since Plantinga does not claim that the EAAN establishes Christianity, specifically.  Second, if the EAAN works and thereby establishes the existence of some god or other, that would be sufficient to refute Coyne’s atheism.  It would be quite ridiculous for an atheist to say: “Sure, you’ve shown that a deity exists, but how does that refute atheism?  You haven’t proven that Jesus is divine, that the Bible is inspired, etc!”

Fourth, for some bizarre reason, Coyne seems to think that the EAAN is related to Calvin’s notion of a sensus divinitatis or innate awareness of God (pp. 178f.).  He quotes a line about the sensus divinitatis from a passage from Plantinga that has nothing to do with the EAAN, runs it together with material that is concerned with the EAAN, and presents Plantinga’s argument as if it were fundamentally concerned to show that our cognitive faculties can be reliable only if Calvin’s sensus divinitatis thesis is correct.  This is either embarrassingly dishonest or (more charitably) embarrassingly incompetent.  Either way, it is a travesty of Plantinga’s position.  Imagine someone first quoting a few lines from a speech on health care given by President Obama, then quoting a line or two from an Obama speech on gun control, and then claiming on the basis of this textual “evidence” that one of the central components of Obamacare is gun control.  That’s about the level of scholarship Coyne exhibits.

Fifth, Coyne spills a lot of ink arguing that many of our beliefs are false and that there are certain errors to which we are constitutionally prone -- “probably,” Coyne says, because of the way we evolved (pp. 179-80).  How this is supposed to be a problem for the EAAN, I have no idea.  For one thing, Plantinga would take the considerations cited by Coyne to be confirming evidence that naturalism cannot account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties.  But even Coyne insists (as he would have to if he is going to trust his own cognitive faculties) that they are at the end of the day “fairly reliable” (emphasis added).  For another thing, Plantinga never claims in the first place (contrary to the impression Coyne gives) that we are not prone to errors.  His point is precisely rather that naturalism cannot even account for the fact that our cognitive faculties are at least “fairly reliable.”  Plantinga isn’t saying: “Naturalism cannot account for our cognitive faculties’ being perfectly reliable.”  He is saying: “Naturalism cannot account for our cognitive faculties’ being reliable at all.”

Sixth, in attempting to defend the claim that natural selection can account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties, Coyne cites a number of tendencies we exhibit that are adaptive (pp. 181-2).  The trouble, though, is that his examples have nothing at all to do with our beliefs as opposed to our behavior; indeed, Coyne himself admits that some of what he describes are “not beliefs, really, but adaptive behaviors.”  But this misses the entire point of Plantinga’s argument, which is precisely that there is nothing for which natural selection can account that goes beyond our behavior.  The behavior will be either adaptive or maladaptive whatever beliefs happen to be associated with it, so that natural selection can only ever operate on the former and not the latter.  Hence while Coyne goes on to suggest that because the former are adaptive, the latter must be too, he has given no reason whatsoever to think so, but merely ignored, rather than answered, Plantinga’s argument, the whole point of which is to show that such an inference is a non sequitur. 

So, those are six major problems just with Coyne’s brief treatment of a single argument.  Another example of Coyne’s laughable standards of scholarship is his method of repeatedly citing the Oxford English Dictionary whenever he needs to define some key term (“religion,” “supernatural,” etc.).  The absurdity of this procedure can be seen by imagining someone writing a book on chemistry (say) and relying on OED or some other dictionary of everyday usage in order to define the key terms.  Hence suppose that he defines a chemical element as “a part or aspect of something abstract, especially one that is essential or characteristic”; that he defines a bond as a “physical restraint used to hold someone or something prisoner, especially ropes or chains”; and so forth.  Obviously this would be a ridiculous procedure, since such terms have a technical meaning in chemistry that corresponds only loosely at best to the ordinary usage captured in the usual dictionary definitions.  Now, philosophy and theology too use many terms in technical senses that do not closely correspond to ordinary usage.  Hence it is no less absurd to write on those subjects while relying on a dictionary of ordinary usage for one’s characterization of the key ideas of those fields.  But that is exactly what Coyne does.

Then there is Coyne’s account of scientific method.  He writes:

Science comprises an exquisitely refined set of tools designed to find out what is real and to prevent confirmation bias. Science prizes doubt and iconoclasm, rejects absolute authority, and relies on testing one’s ideas with experiments and observations of nature.  Its sine qua non is evidence -- evidence that can be inspected and adjudicated by any trained and rational observer.  And it depends largely on falsification.  Nearly every scientific truth comes with an implicit rider: “Evidence X would show this to be wrong.” (p. 65)

Even the most militantly atheist philosopher of science would regard this as laughably naïve and dated.  You’d never know from Coyne’s circa-1955 Children’s Encyclopedia conception of science that Kuhn’s Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Feyerabend’s Against Method, etc. had ever been written.  You don’t need to be a relativist or anti-realist about science (and I certainly am not) to know that things are much more complicated than the long-exploded myth of the Dispassionate Men in White Lab Coats would have it.

In other ways too, Coyne’s knowledge of the philosophy of science is staggering in its nonexistence.  His glib appeal to “laws of nature” manifests little awareness of how philosophically problematic the notion is, and zero awareness of the debate over the issue that has been conducted in contemporary metaphysics and philosophy of science.  (Readers interested in finding out what the debate is about can’t do better than to start with Stephen Mumford’s Laws in Nature.) 

Coyne asserts in passing that laws are “simply observed regularities that hold in our universe” (p. 158) -- completely oblivious to the problem that this sort of account of laws threatens to strip them of the explanatory power that he needs for them to have if they are to count as even a prima facie alternative to theism.  (Suppose there is a regular correlation in nature between phenomenon A and phenomenon B and you ask for an explanation of it.  If laws just are observed regularities, then to say that it is a “law” that A is correlated with B is in no way to explain the correlation, but merely to re-label it.)  Moreover, on one page Coyne acknowledges that “the laws of physics… needs [sic] explanation” (p. 158) , but then, on the very next page, after arguing that all laws can be taken down to some level of “fundamental laws,” suddenly dismisses the claim that those fundamental laws need any explanation.  How this can be anything other than the fallacy of special pleading, he does not tell us.

Note that what Coyne is doing here is exactly what he, like other New Atheists, falsely accuses First Cause arguments of doing.  Their stock accusation is that First Cause arguments rest on the premise that “everything has a cause,” but then suddenly make an arbitrary exception when it comes to God.  As I have shown many times, that is nothing more than an urban legend.  No philosopher has ever given such an argument or made such an arbitrary exception.  But Coyne, like so many other New Atheists, is taking a position that commits an exactly parallel fallacy.  They are saying that all natural laws require an explanation in terms of more fundamental laws, but suddenly make an arbitrary exception when they get to whatever the most fundamental laws of physics turn out to be.

(In response to those who would appeal to God in order to explain the fundamental laws, Coyne trots out, as if on cue… wait for it… the usual amateur atheist retort “where did that God come from?” (p. 159) -- the point-missing stupidity of which Coyne has had personally explained to him many times now, most recently here.)

I could very easily go on -- Coyne’s writings are the gift-to-bloggers that keeps giving -- but bouncing rubble gets boring after a while.  We have, many times now -- e.g. here, here, here, here, and here -- seen how preternaturally bad Coyne’s musings on philosophy and religion can be when he wings it for the blog post du jour.  It turns out that he’s not one whit better when he’s got space, time, and a cash incentive to produce something more serious at book-length.  If Darwin’s Origin of Species was One Long Argument, Faith versus Fact is essentially One Long Dashed-Off Blog Post.  It adds absolutely nothing to the New Atheist literature except a further 311 pages.

518 comments:

  1. DNW:
    So when I look at the credentials of science to dictate how we shall live, I wish to know just what is included as "science" and what if any are the limits to its sway.
    And of course I have to note, because it has been pointed out to me, that the project of science is not just a method, but has some content as well.


    I have always been puzzled by the belief that science can or should dictate what our lives should look like. As if there wasn't enough denial of human agency already. And as if science could ever capture oughts. We have to do "it", because "it's the next logical step". I got a logical step for them right here.

    And it is obvious that respecting that content, those protocol derived conclusions and propositions which I guess we call "knowledge", becomes part of "being down with science", and has in fact pretty obvious social consequences. For it is critical for a student to agree that there are nine planets because science says so, until it becomes critical to agree that there are not nine anymore.
    But is this really "knowledge", (much less "truth") and if so, of what exactly?


    Replies given mechanically and without any understanding of their origins and backgrounds are so commonplace in our educational institutions and daily life in general that some students now explicitly request to be taught in that manner. (My own personal experience from 8 years of teaching at universities and grammar schools.) The forces that compel student learning behaviour are indeed socially imprinted to a large extent. "Knowledge" is to that same extent the ability to function within certain communities. Much of what students learn is merely a familiarity with current norms of representation. IMO western educational institutions have not properly begun to realize the harm this brings to individuals and societies.

    The metallurgist who makes a new observation regarding an alloy based on his testing procedures specifically tailored to confirm or dis-confirm a suspected phenomenon, is not generally thought of as a scientist.

    If research is involved, particularly of yet unobserved phenomena, I would definitely think of the metallurgist as a scientist.

    The technician, measuring an artifact with a laser interferometer based system, and confronted with a repeatability problem, suspects contamination, cleans the artifact and gets repeatability readings in the millionths. But he is not a scientist either. But I am not exactly sure why. ...

    I guess it's because the technician's main focus is the application of scientific methods and results towards some practical end, not the pursuit of knowledge as a goal in itself. The boundaries between technology and science will of course always be ragged and blurry.

    Much of what gnus call "science" is actually technology. I remember when one of them confronted me with the claim that the first caveman sharpening a stick to be used as a hunting spear was a scientist.

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  2. DNW:
    What seems to be crucial is the definition of a "fact". And after reading through 4 numbered paragraphs I learn that, "Finally, 'fact' denotes those things existing in space or time, together with the relations between them in virtue of which a proposition is true. Facts in this sense are neither true nor false"

    Always with the correspondence gambit. Already disliked that when I read some of what Tarski wrote on logic. What *thing* in space and time makes it true that "Wittgenstein was born on the 26th of April"? The entry in his birth certificate? What thing makes it true that I was born on the same day as Wittgenstein? And which thing in space and time makes it true that "my house is at number 27b"? Is it the number plaque on the door? How can anybody know I live at 27b if they haven't seen the plaque?

    "A fact F is 'out there' and a (true) proposition P expresses that." I don't think so. Nobody has ever explained what the "r" is supposed to be or do in the relation "PrF", except that it indicates a "pairing" (which is all it does in logic and math, all content being stripped away in the abstraction).

    "Consequently the distinction between fact and hypothesis is never sharp when by "fact" is understood a proposition which may be true, but for which the evidence can never be complete."

    It seems to me that this amounts to hyper-skepticism based on a misunderstanding about the place of logic and its role in how we learn to make judgements.

    This is a laudable example of epistemic humility, don't you think? Especially when chapters later, it is stated in the context of the self-corrective nature of the scientific method that "The method of science is thus essentially circular".

    Facts are neither true or false. What is considered as fact one day, and demanding of our allegiance, may not be fact the next. But this is ok because science is a project of self-correction and epistemic humility in which social dogmas pay no role.

    Except when it isn't, and they do. I guess.


    There are fashions and fads in science (and math) like everywhere else. The idea that the enterprise of knowledge is guided by systematic reason and "self-correction" is a pipe-dream. Physics departments in German universities taught complex analysis to their students for decades -- not because it was needed (only a few results of it are) but because it had been deemed "important" at some point in the 70s. This "importance" became a dogma subsequently. Once the "importance" of a field has been officially codified within a curriculum, it is almost impossible to remove, even if the field is no longer useful. The overemphasis on complex analysis in physics faded out only when the departments ran into financial crises and could no longer afford to hire half a dozen profs specializing in c.a. Now everyone is into numerical analysis and dynamical systems theory. Because they're important.

    Self-correction and epistemic humility sound good on paper, in practice no scientist likes to be refuted and almost nobody will ever publicly admit that they were wrong. (Dawkins still clings to selfish gene theory, which was clearly identifiable as confused even when it first came out. Although this may be a bad example as SGT is not actually science.) Outdated theories go away only when the generation of their advocates retires or dies.

    Scientists are a lot like MDs:

    Scientists don’t like to step on each other’s toes. “They feel a lot of pressure not to contradict each other,” says Elizabeth Iorns, the CEO of Science Exchange. “There’s a lot of evidence that if you do that, it’ll be negative for your career.”

    The basics for Jindra, Santi and the basic gnu. With pictures.

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  3. I pointed out the same issue to Santi here. (If that link does not work (there seems to be a problem with the "showComment" parameter), it's at pck, February 3, 2016 at 8:53 AM, here.)

    The problem is that 'here' was used when 'hear' is to be used.

    Just kiddin'.

    Append the "showComment" #anchor to "commentPage=x".

    That is, take this...

    #c3950451527484396035

    ...from this...

    ...html?showComment=1454518423813#c3950451527484396035

    ...and concatenate to this...

    ...html?commentPage=3

    ...to get this:

    ...html?commentPage=3#c3950451527484396035

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  4. @Don Jindra: "When Vaal mentioned: 'It's not for nothing there are thousands of sects arising out of competing interpretations. It's like having a conversation with a Hydra that never stops sprouting heads.' -- he wasn't referring to Christian physicists. [...] It's not what Vaal was talking about. Those disagreements among Christians have a dramatic effect. One may be a pacifist, another may arm himself for Armageddon."

    I've heard some thoughtful and perspicacious points about science. (Although, "[A]s many in Munich were surprised to learn, falsificationism is no longer the reigning philosophy of science. Massimo Pigliucci, a philosopher at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, pointed out that falsifiability is woefully inadequate as a separator of science and nonscience, as Popper himself recognized. Astrology, for instance, is falsifiable — indeed, it has been falsified ad nauseam — and yet it isn’t science. Physicists’ preoccupation with Popper 'is really something that needs to stop,' Pigliucci said. 'We need to talk about current philosophy of science. We don’t talk about something that was current 50 years ago.' / Nowadays, as several philosophers at the workshop said, Popperian falsificationism has been supplanted by Bayesian confirmation theory, or Bayesianism, a modern framework based on the 18th-century probability theory of the English statistician and minister Thomas Bayes.".)

    But I haven't heard anything on the *other* side, the historical, of Don Jindra's original criticism. So science isn't what he thinks it is, in several ways. Ditto metaphysics. Ditto theology. But what, if anything, does the *history* of theology/doctrine/dogma (variously, depending upon what he meant) tell us? (Especially from anyone who may have read McGiffert, Troeltsch, Barth Harnack, Tillich, or whoever the contemporary equivalents are, I don't know.)

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  5. ↑Serious request, btw. If we're going to address the "science vs. religion" silliness, then we've got to address the "religion" part just as much as the "science" part (as much as possible, anyway, within the confines of a philosophy blog). Here would seem to be a great place to throw in for those commenters who seem to keep to the more theological posts like Papal fallibility.

    @TheOFloinn: "The benefits of 'evolution' that Dr. Lipkin elucidates may be very real, but may be due more to the genetic theory than to Darwin's natural selection."

    Seems fair.

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  6. Well, seeing as lauba couldn't produce an actual benefit of evolutionary theory that any human being actually enjoys; and, further, seeing as professor Feser has produced what looks like it must be another interesting and controversial thread;

    That being said,

    I would like to thank everyone who participated in this now defunct (may it rest in peace) thread for their contributions. Hopefully we all benefited by the discussion.

    God bless,
    Timo.

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  7. @Timocrates: "Well, seeing as lauba couldn't produce an actual benefit of evolutionary theory that any human being actually enjoys..."

    I urge you to read closely. Recall that this dispute has narrowed from "Darwin's musings" (your original words, which were the ones I queried) to "Darwin's natural selection" (TheOFloinn's most recent words), even while I noted their several relevant differences; and at the end(?), we have arrived at the fair claim that "The benefits of 'evolution' that Dr. Lipkin elucidates may be very real, but may be due more to the genetic theory than to Darwin's natural selection." (Emphasis mine.) This is an impasse; one which, I might add, I got myself into when I voluntarily limited myself to the example (of my broader point) which I happened first to bring up.

    I note you never got around to developing your points about the modern project, the masses, war, man's own dignity, and ideologies and the States based on them. ;-)

    "I would like to thank everyone who participated in this now defunct (may it rest in peace) thread for their contributions. Hopefully we all benefited by the discussion. / God bless[.]"

    Likewise.

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  8. Don Jindra: A ship with no rudder is pretty useless. [...] Empiricism keeps us from drifting wildly off course.

    So does an anchor, but it doesn't get you very far. And "useless"? So if you were at sea and suddenly lost your rudder, you'd immediately jump overboard?

    a ship named Reason with no empiricism will reach the Outer Limits.

    It's a poor sailor who never wants to leave the harbour. And as already noted, you can't mean "empiricism" here, but charitably reading it as something like "empirical data" still doesn't work; Reason is always the ship, data is maybe an oar.

    I already fear for the hard-boiled anti-hero who insists on keeping his feet on the ground.

    I guess there is some earth-bound sci-fi, but a pretty big theme since Verne onwards is precisely about getting one's feet off the ground. But of course data don't do anything. You have to do something with them, and that takes reason and philosophy.

    Yet you seem to think those conceptual models are of higher quality than scientific ones. There's no reason to think this is the case.

    Actually, I've got some great news for you. I just heard about some cutting-edge developments from the world of philosophy, and it seems that in only the last millennium or two, they've come up with this amazingly sophisticated system that substantiates those very models — they're even predicting it could support a scientific revolution! To find out more, you should look into the work of a chap named Edward Feser, if you can find it.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Laubadetriste: I thought it was a matter of the comments being on pages beyond the first, but after fiddling with the URL to indicate later pages, now I don't think so. Maybe the Captains Computer know what we're doing wrong.

    Using Blogspot. It's had problems with links as long as I can remember, and Google doesn't seem to care. (To be fair, you get what you pay for.) Comments beyond the first page are the usual problem, because the URL points to the first page and is supposed to get redirected to the actual page, but for some reason doesn't.

    You can usually make a link that works by going to the appropriate page and viewing the source code (or inspecting elements, or whatever works to bring up the raw HTML gobbledegook). Find the line preceding that comment that looks like this:

    <a name="c2809444500170653228"></a>

    and stick the identifier on the end of the page's URL with a "#":

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/01/debased-coynage.html?commentPage=2#c2809444500170653228

    ...and then the link might work, although by the time you've gone through that rigamarole, the discussion will be over.


    Perhaps more useful will be a response I was going to make to previous posts about special characters. First, some free sub- and superscripts for anyone who wants some:

    ₀₁₂₃₄₅₆₇₈₉ ⁰¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹

    In case anyone doesn't know, you can get special characters from Windows' Character Map or, on Macs, choosing the "Edit→Emoji & Symbols" menu. Of course, finding the Unicode symobl you want can be daunting in the first place, but the nifty http://shapecatcher.com/ will let you draw a symbol and then try to find matching characters.

    I think most people just keep a collection of special symbols stashed away for future copying-and-pasting, but the industrious can design their own keyboard-layouts to add the desired characters directly (see Ukelele or MS Layout Creator or various other pieces of software).

    ReplyDelete
  10. @Mr. Green: "I think most people just keep a collection of special symbols stashed away for future copying-and-pasting..."

    I do. Can I really copy those sub- and superscript numbers? Those are something I was looking for when I was quoting a point about cardinality, but the sub tag was being rejected by the combox. I just tried aleph null, and no matter how I copied-and-pasted, the null kept showing before the aleph.

    I'll fiddle with the character map, etc.

    "You can usually make a link that works by going to the appropriate page and viewing the source code..."

    Aha!

    "Actually, I've got some great news for you. I just heard about some cutting-edge developments from the world of philosophy, and it seems that in only the last millennium or two, they've come up with this amazingly sophisticated system that substantiates those very models — they're even predicting it could support a scientific revolution! To find out more, you should look into the work of a chap named Edward Feser, if you can find it."

    Heh. :)

    Great drollery *and* a ready way with unicode? Why, it's almost unfair. If only I didn't have enormous personal magnetism and the strength required to open peanut butter jars...

    ReplyDelete
  11. pck,

    "You claimed that 'science reduces conceptual difficulties'. This is nonsense."

    Let's not forget that science *is* a branch of philosophy. What in your branch reduces conceptual difficulties? And what in the 'science' branch prevents it from doing so? So far you can't get past the empirical part of science, as if that's all science is, or it somehow bogs down the rest. "Science, narrowly conceived as mere empiricism," is a straw man. Modern science is not narrowly conceived as mere empiricism. Knowing that fact does not drag me through the muck of scientism. It doesn't make me think science has no limits, as you falsely insinuate. Ultimately your accusations of 'nonsense' need to come with an indication that you understand what you're talking about.

    "It's no more logically possible to conflate convention and nature than it is possible to conflate one's envy and one's left arm."

    More reason for you to stop doing it, then. :) But since it's very normal for people to conflate the conventional and the natural, I have no idea why you think it's logically impossible to do it.

    "Trivially, a reduction of conceptual difficulties arising from the N_i cannot occur until after the P_j have been observed."

    Oh, I see your problem now. You're using a double standard. You want to look at a small piece of the pie. When a child observes phenomena he doesn't understand, this is not a conceptual difficulty. When a physicist observes phenomena he doesn't understand, that's a conceptual difficulty. But the child doesn't like confusion. He makes guesses about the phenomena. Most children put those guesses to the test. Eventually it makes sense and the child has a working theory, one less conceptual difficulty in the world. But when a scientist does the same in a formal environment, he's becoming more confused. Nice work.

    "First of all, philosophy is not practiced through words, but expressed through them."

    It must be a neat trick practicing philosophy without words. Is it more than navel gazing? Interestingly, no words means no concepts. Is that what you mean by philosophy reducing conceptual difficulties -- by the elimination of words altogether? I suppose in that case a worm has no conceptual difficulties and is therefore quite the philosopher, though a poor scientist.


    "So you're saying that Plato was a scientist. Interesting."

    So, if Plato drinks wine and a scientist drinks wine a scientist must be a Greek. Interesting.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Glenn,

    "Which is to admit that you see specific truths as working by downward deduction from (what you hold to be) a general truth,"

    You're going to have to elaborate because this sentence has no relation to my meaning. 'What works' is not usually deduced. It's generally simply observed. Hammer two boards together. Did it work? Only a fool would try to deduce that. The rest of us would give a tug and observe what happens.


    laubadetriste,

    "When folks around here hear the word 'empiricism,' they think of its proper meaning, which is a sort of philosophy. I think you mean something like 'empirical evidence,' or what have you."

    I mean both, depending on context, just like everyone here. Both are its proper meaning, btw.


    TheOFloinn,

    I have nothing against math. It wouldn't dream of tossing any of it aside. But like anything, it has limits. There are things it does beautifully. There are things it cannot do. This is not too controversial. My skepticism concerns what truths math can generate outside of itself. Does its elegant symbol manipulation, entirely detached from the practicalities of the world, ever say more than 0=0?


    DNW,

    "So when I look at the credentials of science to dictate how we shall live, I wish to know just what is included as 'science' and what if any are the limits to its sway."

    I'm curious to know what scientists claim science should dictate how we should live? To me, that's out of its scope -- at least for now. But I'm also curious about similar claims by philosophers. Plato surely thought philosophy should guide us on how to live. But what part of philosophy is that guidepost? Could I have deduced prior to marriage how to treat my wife?



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  13. I have nothing against math. It wouldn't dream of tossing any of it aside. But like anything, it has limits. ... Does its elegant symbol manipulation, entirely detached from the practicalities of the world, ever say more than 0=0?

    Yes.

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  14. Don:
    Let's not forget that science *is* a branch of philosophy

    Not in the modern sense of the word.

    What in your branch reduces conceptual difficulties? And what in the 'science' branch prevents it from doing so?

    My degrees are in physics and math. Philosophy was a minor. So I don't know why you are contrasting "your branch" with "the science branch" there. The science branch is my branch. (Just not my only branch.) Conceptual difficulties are reduced through conceptual, aka philosophical, work. This work can be done by scientists and philosophers alike (or anyone else who is qualified). But the character of the work will always be conceptual, not empirical. (Cleaning his equipment is part of what a cook does, but it doesn't follow that cleaning is part of cooking.)

    Modern science is not narrowly conceived as mere empiricism.

    By your "only what works is real" conviction, what must be added to empiricism to produce science in the modern sense?

    Me: "It's no more logically possible to conflate convention and nature than it is possible to conflate one's envy and one's left arm."
    Don: More reason for you to stop doing it, then.


    It's not possible to stop (or start) doing something that is logically impossible. What you said was nonsense, not merely false. It was gibberish constructed from English words.

    I have no idea why you think it's logically impossible to do it.

    Clearly you don't. Try to weld a piece of metal to your affection for your wife. Maybe then you will understand what a category error is. "Conflating nature and convention" is a similarly absurd notion. (Recall that your actual accusaton was the conflation of textual analysis with experiments in science. Apart from the fact that neither TOF nor I did that (we didn't even mention textual analysis, you just pulled that out of nowhere), *this* fallacy is utterly inadequately described by "conflating nature and convention" since scientific experiments are not nature and textual analysis is not convention. What a grotesquely sloppy employ of the English language.)

    Me:"Trivially, a reduction of conceptual difficulties arising from the N_i cannot occur until after the P_j have been observed."
    Don: [...] When a physicist observes phenomena he doesn't understand, that's a conceptual difficulty.


    It's not. You're confusing difficulties in coming up with concepts with difficulties arising from (already existing) concepts. Only in the latter case does it even make sense to speak of "conceptual difficulties" and consequently of reducing them.

    Conceptual difficulties typically occur when the N_i are used to predict or describe hitherto unobserved phenomena. Heisenberg had comparatively little trouble in coming up with a first version of his non-commutating operator calculus of quantum mechanics. The conceptual difficulties popped up only later, when the concsequences of his approach were worked out in greater detail and the new framework was resisting easy interpretations and extrapolations of its concepts to a greater range of physical phenomena. The epistemic content of the new theory was so puzzling that many physicists rejected it.

    It can also occasionally be difficult to come up with some N_i in the first place. But again, at that point there can be no talk about "reduction of conceptual difficulties" yet because there can be no difficulties arising from concepts which do not yet exist.

    The point is so trivial that there is little hope you will see it now if you didn't see it before. I can only repeat my recommendation to do some actual scientific work yourself. We know that will not happen of course. It's easier to parrot half-understood nonsense than to put in actual hours.

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  15. Don:
    It must be a neat trick practicing philosophy without words.

    No one said anyting about doing wordless philosophy. Words can express thoughts, emotions, perceptions, etc. which don't have to be propositions themselves.

    Logical mess of the month

    So, if Plato drinks wine and a scientist drinks wine a scientist must be a Greek. Interesting.

    The form of this logical fallacy doesn't even remotely fit the structure of the argument it refers to:

    DJ: Was Plato elucidating concepts or merely pointing out their many weaknesses?
    Me: "The former. Pointing out weaknesses in certain kinds of arguments is part of conceptual clarification."
    DJ: And that is precisely what science does.


    You last reply was ambiguous. You either claim that

    (a) science points out weaknesses in certain kinds of arguments, or
    (b) that science clarifies/elucidates concepts.

    Since you did not object to my reply ("The former. ...") I will be assume that you accept it. It follows that you accept that Plato was elucidating concepts. (Which makes him a philosopher.) Then in the case of (a) your final reply makes no sense, while for the case of (b) it follows that you are saying that Plato was a scientist. So either you're saying that you were talking nonsense, or you claimed that Plato was a scientist. qed.

    While I am fully aware that logic is not your strong suit, your replies carry a degree of obtuseness and confusion which is suprising even coming from a gnu (although Sam Harris likes to weasel out of every objection raised against him by constantly shifting his definitions and using foggy language mixed with category errors much like do).

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  16. "'What works' is not usually deduced. It's generally simply observed."

    That is false. It has to be deduced.

    You observe events, but in order to make sense of any observation, you have to deduce from conclusions made outside of those observations. No matter how often some test appears to work, no observation will ever tell you that it does.

    You can't empirically confirm or support empiricism.

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  17. "much like do" => "much like you do"

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  18. Don Jindra,

    You're going to have to elaborate because this sentence has no relation to my meaning.

    My intention was to respond to what you actually wrote. Since I cannot read your mind, and thus cannot lay claim to knowing with certainty what your intended meaning was, I will accept your claim that my response to what you wrote is unrelated to your intended meaning. Regarding what you actually wrote, however, my response is both related and relevant.

    You: “I admit I see truth in terms of observation of 'what works' in the material world[.]”

    Me: “Which is to admit that you see specific truths as working by downward deduction from (what you hold to be) a general truth, which general truth is that truth is to be viewed in terms of 'what works' in the material world.”

    Hammer two boards together. Did it work? Only a fool would try to deduce that.

    Really?

    The rest of us would give a tug and observe what happens.

    Suppose you do give it a tug, and the two boards remain fastened. Since, according to you, only a fool would deduce that the nailing of the two boards together worked, and you're not a fool, what would you conclude? And how?

    But perhaps that is a bit too subtle for your taste. So, something a little less subtle for you seems to be in order:

    You nail two boards together, give it (i.e., the pair of boards) a tug, observe what happens, and -- abracadabra, alakazam -- announce, "It worked!"

    Well, gee, that is great, wonderful, fantastic. Maybe even stupendous.

    But here's a question for you: will the two boards still be fastened together five minutes from now? An hour from now? Tomorrow? Next week? Next month?

    Remember -- only a fool would use deduction to answer a question about ‘what works’ in the material world.

    And remember -- you're not a fool.

    You're also probably not willing to go give a tug on the two boards every five minutes for the next hour, week, or month -- or several years (if the boards were nailed together as one small part of building a house).

    So, how are you going to answer the question (without making a fool of yourself)?

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  19. "...or whoever the contemporary equivalents are, I don't know."

    Those were also German and Protestant historians. This tends to be an Anglophile and Catholic blog. Newman's *Essay,* Christopher Dawson, etc., would be awesome, too.

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  20. Glenn (exposing the butchering of logic by Don "who's next" Jindra):
    So, how are you going to answer the question (without making a fool of yourself)?

    My guess is that he will try to get out of this by saying something like "I hammered two boards together before and they're still attached to one another after 2 years. Thus I have experimental evidence that 'it works'. I cannot be perfectly sure it will work again, because I reject blind faith. But I have some reason to believe that it will."

    If subsequently asked how he is able to make even that (probability-based) deduction he will claim it's a not a deduction but "(probabilistic) knowledge based on evidence". Or something like that. At which point the circle of obtuseness will be completed and the "discussion" is back to square one.

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  21. You all know Don is (in)famous for the of combination of utter confusion and confidence you are critiquing here? He has been a long-time critic of Feser's and Ross's arguments for the immateriality of the intellect based upon indeterminacy of the physical because he thinks it is question begging. He thinks this because its conclusion follows from its premises.

    I just warn you. It is an interesting discussion at the moment, but you can expect to get no where.

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  22. "DNW,

    'So when I look at the credentials of science to dictate how we shall live, I wish to know just what is included as 'science' and what if any are the limits to its sway.'

    I'm curious to know what scientists claim science should dictate how we should live? To me, that's out of its scope -- at least for now.
    "



    On first reading what you wrote, i.e., "I'm curious to know what scientists claim ...", I was really peeved at myself for being so negligent as to make a claim regarding "scientists" for which I would have to provide a litany of names which would inevitably lead to disputes over whether X was a real scientist, or respected, or whatever.

    Then, I realized that your question didn't really follow from what I had actually posited. Even so, one might quibble with the term, "dictate", and prefer something like , "guide".

    And too, even there, if you took seriously the self-description of what science is, as in the Berkeley.edu Via Negativa pointed to by pck, then "guide", as in life-way recommendation, would itself be an entirely inappropriate term: since science, and presumably scientists themselves, would never speak in terms of "oughts", which were not purely instrumentally determined.

    It is likely then, best for us to adopt this latter stance, and even to try to believe in it.

    Scientists are after all, the consummate professionals; and for the most part probably even purer than reporters and lawyers. And besides, their areas of expertise are so recondite that any deceptions or groundless obiter emanating from them are likely to be almost impossible for the average man to detect anyway.

    So, for example, when that astronomer in the wheelchair, you know the one I mean - the little twisted-up guy with the mechanical voice - says that there is no God and that only babyish men afraid of the dark would ever think so, well, I am inclined to take what he says as Gospel, if you will pardon the phrase.

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  23. Prof John Lennox response to Hawking's comment "heaven is a fairy tale for people afraid of the dark" comment was "Atheism is a fairy tale for people afraid of the light".

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  24. " 'The technician, measuring an artifact with a laser interferometer based system, and confronted with a repeatability problem, suspects contamination, cleans the artifact and gets repeatability readings in the millionths. But he is not a scientist either. But I am not exactly sure why. ...'

    I guess it's because the technician's main focus is the application of scientific methods and results towards some practical end, not the pursuit of knowledge as a goal in itself. The boundaries between technology and science will of course always be ragged and blurry."



    Yeah ... The purpose of my skeletal framing as you saw, was to try and force the hypothetical "gnu" to rejoin, "No! Not just method! Knowledge too!".

    Of course the moment that step it taken, the path he must follow - unless he just flees overland - is the one wherein he must confront what is being currently discussed here: what it means both privately and socially to stake a claim of mastering or having or accepting "scientific knowledge".



    "Much of what gnus call "science" is actually technology. I remember when one of them confronted me with the claim that the first caveman sharpening a stick to be used as a hunting spear was a scientist."


    The problem is that a reductive habit and perspective which may have some legitimacy, but so beloved of debunkers for its supposed de-structive powers when applied to old shibboleths, has some of the same effect on their more treasured doctrines.

    And when one looks closely at the hypothetico-deductive method, it does not seem to really comprehend all of what scientists, much less science popularizers mean to convey when they utter the word "science".

    Not as bad as Mill's Methods perhaps, but incomplete nonetheless.

    As for technology, I generally like it. Combustion turbines, high speed milling machines, laser measurement ... what's not to like?

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  25. DNW:
    The problem is that a reductive habit and perspective which may have some legitimacy, but so beloved of debunkers for its supposed de-structive powers when applied to old shibboleths, has some of the same effect on their more treasured doctrines.

    Yeah, they overshoot their marks all the time. And many, perhaps even most of their legitimate targets are entities of a piscean nature moving within the confined spaces employed by the wine industry.

    And when one looks closely at the hypothetico-deductive method, it does not seem to really comprehend all of what scientists, much less science popularizers mean to convey when they utter the word "science".

    There simply is no "Science" with a capital S. One cannot even explain chemistry from physics purely by way of reduction. The spectrum of practices called "scientific" within their respective domains comprises no conceptually unified body of intellectual apprehension. Knowledge with a capital K is as much of a mirage as Science is (or Religion for that matter). Just as an example, Hubert Dreyfus often differentiates between knowing-that and knowing-how, which can be quite useful. (If I knew every fact -- every *that* -- there is to be known about aviation, including when to push which button and lever in a 747 cockpit, but had no actual experience flying a plane, they'd be quite ill advised to license me.)

    Long story short, differences are important to consider and they're not going away, no matter how many "I'm with science" t-shirts are being worn by 35+ year old C++ coding reddit users.

    As for technology, I generally like it. Combustion turbines, high speed milling machines, laser measurement ... what's not to like?

    Same here. I don't want to go back to a pre-technological society. What is, as least theoretically, whithin our reach today is quite amazing. Pity that technological and societal development are nowhere near caught up with each other.

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  26. Anonymos:
    You all know Don is (in)famous for the of combination of utter confusion and confidence you are critiquing here?[...]
    I just warn you. It is an interesting discussion at the moment, but you can expect to get no where.


    Yes, I'm aware. The only merit to be extracted from exchanges with him is that his special kind of nonsense ("Donsense") occasionally elicits a reflection about a topic which is more detailed and refined than previously thought necessary or possible. It can be instructive (to me, never to him) to think about how much better one can do than him. It's like playing a video game which is easily won every time, but it's the high score that matters too.

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  27. pck,

    "Conceptual difficulties are reduced through conceptual, aka philosophical, work. This work can be done by scientists and philosophers alike"

    But earlier you claimed: "Science creates concepts, philosophy elucidates them. Science is thus a source of conceptual difficulties, not of their remedy."

    More strident rhetoric followed: "I pointed out that your claim that 'science reduces conceptual difficulties' is nonsense."

    Now I should accuse you of changing your mind. Instead, I think you're splitting hairs. You seem to claim scientists wear two hats. They put on their philosopher's cap when they reduce conceptual difficulties. All of the 'nonsense' was merely about what caps you think people wear. You ignore the fact that philosophers create their own conceptual difficulties yet have a miserable record of resolving them.

    But I'll agree with you to a point. Science is often a source of conceptual difficulties. That's because it keeps pushing forward. It keeps asking tougher questions. Once the latest difficulties are put to bed, new ones rise at dawn.


    "You're confusing difficulties in coming up with concepts with difficulties arising from (already existing) concepts. Only in the latter case does it even make sense to speak of "conceptual difficulties" and consequently of reducing them."

    I'm thankful you've begun to explain what you mean by 'conceptual difficulties.' But I don't think you've drawn a clear line. If a concept exists yet has a difficulty, why is that difficulty there? The difficulty comes from the fact that the concept is not all-inclusive in the first place. There are exceptions. There are holes. There are things unaccounted for, if not from yesterday, then from findings today. So in fact the physicist came up with a half-baked concept. He either had the difficulty from the start or was ignorant of important details when that light bulb switch on. So it's not quite accurate to claim there's a clear distinction between coming up with a concept and having an already existing concept. The already existing concept never quite jelled. It's difficulty arises because we can't come up with anything that completely jells. IOW, coming up with the better (more accurate) concept is the difficulty. It's always the difficulty. It will probably be the eternal difficulty whether we're talking about science or philosophy.


    "My degrees are in physics and math. Philosophy was a minor. So I don't know why you are contrasting 'your branch' with 'the science branch' there. The science branch is my branch."

    Truth is, I suspected more than a one night stand. Perhaps there was a passionate love affair in the past. But I see the way you treat the lady today and I can't help thinking divorce is inevitable. :)

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  28. pck,

    "'Conflating nature and convention' is a similarly absurd notion."

    I did a quick google for "conflate nature and convention." What do you make of this sentence from a paper ("Political Individuals and Providential Nature in Locke and Pope") by Courtney Weiss Smith of Wesleyan University?

    "Literary critics thus show how Pope keeps human institutions and conventions in touch with nature without conflating the two; instincts and familial arrangements encourage natural communities, which are then formalized by social contracts."

    Was the author speaking nonsense?

    There's this sentence from "Convention, 1500-1750" By Lawrence Manley, page 118 (which looks like a pretty interesting book):

    "The objection to the substitution of convention for nature is not a repudiation of artifice, but a protest against unreason."

    If it's logically impossible to conflate the two, they cannot be substituted either. Btw, I could have used the word 'substitute' as well.

    There's this sentence from a First Things article ("The Civic Project of American Christianity") by Michael Hanby:

    "According to Hans Jonas, the birth of modern science was bound up with the advent of a radical new view of reality, a 'technological ontology' that conflates nature and artifice. knowing and making, truth and utility."

    Artifice is parent to convention, artifice being what is made by man. Convention is what is agreed to by men or imposed upon man by the culture -- both being mere artifice.

    You're simply wrong to say these are category mistakes.


    "Recall that your actual accusation was the conflation of textual analysis with experiments in science."

    My accusation concerned sources of confusion. To repeat myself: Physicists do not invent or create the natural world. When the natural world baffles them, that confusion comes from a source outside of human invention. It's the same source in every era in every culture. When theologians cannot agree on analysis of text, the source of that confusion is man-made. It changes throughout eras, cultures, neighborhoods, sects and even families.

    So, for example, when you write, "The framework of quantum physics, as devised by humans, requires us to operate inside a conceptual space very far removed from everyday human life." -- I have to ask, what do you think drove physicists to that "conceptual space very far removed from everyday human life?" I doubt it was everyday life that drove physicist Walter Mitty to dream up an exciting world of QM, something that would ultimately explain the erratic behavior of his teenage kids. The physicist had no intention of discovering nature did the unexpected. He didn't invent that confusion, which is what you imply. He opened Pandora's Box, then BAM!

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  29. pck,

    "Since you did not object to my reply ("The former. ...") I will be assume that you accept it."

    I didn't see any point in objecting since you stumbled another direction. ("Pointing out weaknesses in certain kinds of arguments is part of conceptual clarification."). Science definitely points out weaknesses in certain kinds of arguments. If you agree that's part of conceptual clarification, it follows that science clarifies concepts -- even if that clarification is only a temporarily satisfying condition. No need to quibble about Plato even though I don't think he was in the business of clarifying much of anything. I particularly like Protagoras where Socrates and Protagoras begin on one side of the argument on the teachability of virtue and end up on the opposite sides.


    "while for the case of (b) it follows that you are saying that Plato was a scientist."

    If I agree both science and Plato clarify/elucidate concepts, it does not follow Plato was a scientist.

    A does W.
    B does W.
    Is B therefore A?
    Does B inherit all attributes of A?

    I'm sure you mean well, pck. But forgive me if I won't be taking your logic lessons.


    "By your 'only what works is real' conviction, what must be added to empiricism to produce science in the modern sense?"

    This is what I actually said: "I admit I see truth in terms of observation or of 'what works' in the material world no matter how some disparage that POV." So I was speaking of truth, not of what is real. This is one more case of someone mistaking what I said for what someone hopes I said.

    Earlier you implied I "turn a blind eye on conceptual thought." Yet nowhere have I claimed we can or should do without conceptual thought. Earlier you also accused me of arguing with myself. Maybe sometimes I do. I kind of like arguing with myself. I find myself to be better company when I'm in lively debate with myself. :) But you do the same when you argue with a conception of me that is your own invention of me.


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  30. Physicists do not invent or create the natural world.

    "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning."
    -- Werber Heisenberg

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  31. Me: "Conceptual difficulties are reduced through conceptual, aka philosophical, work. This work can be done by scientists and philosophers alike"

    Don: But earlier you claimed: "Science creates concepts, philosophy elucidates them. Science is thus a source of conceptual difficulties, not of their remedy."
    [...]
    You seem to claim scientists wear two hats. They put on their philosopher's cap when they reduce conceptual difficulties


    What's the problem? Scientific theories are sources of conceptual diffculties. Qualified people can attempt to resolve these. Of course people can wear more than one hat. Are you telling me you didn't know that? Do you think only bakers can make good bread? As I have said all along and multiple times, the conceptual and the empirical complement each other and one without the other is very often quite useless. A physicist who merely records data is not a proper physicist. A philosopher of mind who knows nothing about the brain is going to miss important parts about his topic of interest. It was always thus. None of this is even the slightest bit controversial or a cause for concern. Nor is it diminishing for either science or philosophy.

    If you want clear demarcation lines in the practices of acquiring knowledge, you're out of luck. Nevertheless, there is a pretty sharp, though not perfect, line between the empirical and the conceptual. Just like there is a pretty sharp, though not perfect, line between a waterbottle and the water in it. And if you want to make it through the desert, you better have both, the water and the bottle, preferably with the former contained in the latter.

    All of the 'nonsense' was merely about what caps you think people wear

    No, the nonsense was about you saying nonsensical things. Like science being able to resolve conceptual diffculties when it is actually the source of them.

    I'm thankful you've begun to explain what you mean by 'conceptual difficulties.'

    Begun? This was the 3rd post in which I explained it.

    IOW, coming up with the better (more accurate) concept is the difficulty. It's always the difficulty. It will probably be the eternal difficulty whether we're talking about science or philosophy.

    That's right, but there is more than one type of problem that can arise from inadequate concepts. You talk about "exceptions" and "holes". That's the empirical part again. Which is important, but is also only one side of the coin. The conceptual difficulties I was concerned with are not about some theory not being able to capture all of the observed phenomena P_j. I was concerned with what I said about Heisenberg's N_i in his approach to QM in my post from February 7, 2016 at 2:22 PM. The problem for QM was not that the theory didn't fit the experimental data. It was that traditional concepts of physics such as "position" (double-slit experiment) and even "physical state" (Schrödinger's cat) were suddenly no longer part of "physical reality" as it had been previously conceived. This did not sit well with many physicists and required them to rethink the philosophy of physics, whether they wanted to or not. Many only then noticed that they even *had* had conceptual commitments.

    Truth is, I suspected more than a one night stand. Perhaps there was a passionate love affair in the past. But I see the way you treat the lady today and I can't help thinking divorce is inevitable.

    Only a fundamentalist would suspect such nonsense. I have learned, taught and done research in math and physics for three decades. Much of it in my spare time and/or for little or no money. Math and physics have been and will always be an important part of my life. Philosophy does not disrespect science as you seem to believe. It only disrespects crazy views and strange expectations of science. Views and expectations such as gnus hold.

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  32. DJ:
    You're simply wrong to say these are category mistakes.

    I'll explain it to you and I will type very slowly so that you can follow: In the examples you googled, the "nature vs convention" contrast is used metaphorically for that which is not due to man vs that which is. As long as this is easily discernible from the statements, there is no problem. There is a problem when an argument rests on a literal comparison of the two, which then constitutes a category error.

    Now your case was actually even worse. In your post from February 6, 2016 at 9:10 AM, "conflating nature and convention" was supposed to mean "the conflation of textual analysis (of 'ancient texts') with observations/theories/models in science" which makes no effing sense because textual analysis and the practices of science are both man made. So I take back the category error, your nonsense doesn't even rise to the level of that.

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  33. Don "product of nature" Jindra:
    Physicists do not invent or create the natural world.

    A startling insight.

    When the natural world baffles them, that confusion comes from a source outside of human invention.

    To be baffled is not the same as to be confused. I'm baffled by your responses but they are not confusing (just confused). Looks like we have another category error on our hands. Well, on yours.

    I have to ask, what do you think drove physicists to that "conceptual space very far removed from everyday human life?"

    Well, they were trying to describe and explain natural phenomena like the double-slit distribution, black body radiation, and atomic spectra using man-made theories.

    The physicist had no intention of discovering nature did the unexpected. He didn't invent that confusion, which is what you imply. He opened Pandora's Box, then BAM!

    I didn't say or imply that a "confusion was invented". What was invented was a theory that could successfully describe and predict the strange phenomena listed above. So Heisenberg succeeded in doing that but he had to give up some very fundamental classical concepts of physics in the process. The conceptual implications of his new framework were so startling that confusions ensued (as opposed to being invented). The new theory's concepts stood in stark contrast to traditional conceptions of physical reality. The picture of nature physicists had had before QM was challenged in, again, confusing ways. The theory worked but how could something so strange be true?

    Here's an example: One of QM's breaks with classical physics is to assign linear operators instead of scalars to "observables" (= measurable quantities). This is obviously going to be a source of confusion to anyone who holds the traditional view that quantities like mass, position, velocity, etc. should be represented by numbers, scalars or vectors together with a physical unit. Indeed, the confusion this change caused led to a discussion what an "observable" was supposed to be in the first place. The core of this debate was entirely philosophical, it had consequences for what physicists would regard as belonging to the discipline of physics. What counts as a physical experiment, a measurement, a result? Physics had to reexamine and reevaluate itself. Strange empirical results, explained by new and revolutionary concepts kicked off the ensuing philosophical debate.

    Even now that these issues have mostly been settled formally, students of physics continue to be puzzled by the conceptual frame work of QM.

    And this concludes our lecture for today. BAM!

    PS: Nobody opened Pandora's Box when QM was created. That came later when they started building nuclear weapons. Get your Greek myths right, you lazy sod.

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  34. Don "even when I'm right I'm wrong" Jindra:
    If I agree both science and Plato clarify/elucidate concepts, it does not follow Plato was a scientist.

    I expected this response. It's correct and yet exposes you as the fool. In two different ways. And here they are:

    1) I took "And that is precisely what science does" to say that *all* concept elucication falls under the domain of science. (Otherwise why respond in this way? Why respond with a non-committal "science elucidates concepts" to "Plato elucidated concepts"? Nothing would follow. So unless your goal was to say nothing at all, one must take "precisely" to be read in the aforementioned sense.) So the only way to read your comment as not saying anything at all is to read it as saying that whoever elucidates concepts must be doing science and not be engaged in some other field or enterprise. It follows that your claim, if read charitably, is that Plato, being an elucidator of concepts, is a scientist.

    2) The weaker "scientists elucidate concepts" and "Plato elucidates concepts" do indeed not entail that Plato is a scientist. But even if read that way the (then vacuous) argument is still not of the form that you claimed it has, which was If Plato drinks wine and a scientist drinks wine a scientist must be a Greek. (You conveniently forgot to mention in your reply that *this* was what you originally compared the argument to.) The additional attribute "Greek" is wholly superfluous. The form of the fallacy you claim to have been comitted does not match the form of the argument it was supposed to expose as fallacious.

    Don't try to bullshit a mathematician with elementary logic.

    Earlier you implied I "turn a blind eye on conceptual thought." Yet nowhere have I claimed we can or should do without conceptual thought.

    Noted. It's just that your understanding of the conceptual is so horrendously defective that it is hard to distinguish it from total ignorance.

    Earlier you also accused me of arguing with myself. Maybe sometimes I do. I kind of like arguing with myself. I find myself to be better company when I'm in lively debate with myself.

    You're a lot like what Ed Feser said about Coyne. The thing about playing tennis with oneself and losing. Coyne is getting some coin out of it though.

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  35. DJ:
    Physicists do not invent or create the natural world.

    TOF:
    "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning."
    -- Werber Heisenberg


    I'll see your Heisenberg and raise you one Bohr:

    “Physics is not about how the world is, it is about what we can say about the world”
    ― Niels Bohr

    We know Jindra won't fold no matter what. If only this was poker, we'd all be rich by now...

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  36. My accusation concerned sources of confusion. To repeat myself: Physicists do not invent or create the natural world. When the natural world baffles them, that confusion comes from a source outside of human invention. It's the same source in every era in every culture. When theologians cannot agree on analysis of text, the source of that confusion is man-made. It changes throughout eras, cultures, neighborhoods, sects and even families.

    This is just question begging. Try not to commit blatant fallacies Don. I know it is tough for you, but it will make the discussion more interesting.

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  37. When the natural world baffles them, that confusion comes from a source outside of human invention.

    Not always. Sometimes it stems from a poor conceptual model. An example everyone recognizes are the Tychonic and Ursine models of the world system. In these models, the Sun and Moon lie embedded in orbs that revolve around the Earth and all the other planets in orbs that revolve around the Sun. (The difference between the two was that Ursus proposed that the Earth rotated in place.)

    Empirically, the Tychonic model produced all the same predictions of the stars and planets as did the Copernican system. (They were mathematically equivalent; just a change in the center of the coordinate system.) And the Tychonic system also accounted for the lack of apparent parallax among the fixed stars as well as the apparent lack of Coriolis effects without proposing additional unproven hypotheses.

    Anyone who relied strictly on empirical data would have discarded the Copernican model as "falsified" (as we say now). The winning model was the Keplerian model and it triumphed by being conceptually and mathematically simpler than both the Tychonic and Copernican models, not by any empirical proof. Parallax and Coriolis effects were not observed until the late 1700s/early 1800s. (Although the unexpected stellar aberration was discovered in the mid-1700s, and the illusory nature of the "observed" Airy discs determined in the mid 1800s.)

    In a similar fashion, the empirical fact of permanent magnets "falsified" Maxwell's theory that magnetism was the result of electric fields. His followers even made up a particle, the "electron," to explain magnetism in apparently non-electrical contexts.

    That's because facts (quia) do not explain themselves. They have meaning only within the context of a conceptual theory, what the medievals called a propter quid. And through any finite collection of facts one can always draw multiple theories.

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  38. I apologize in advance for the somewhat off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone here happens to be familiar with the work of Herman Philipse, whom I came across in reading
    this review of Elmar Kramer's book on Barry Miller.. He seems to be considerably more competent than Coyne inasmuch as he is not only familiar with and has interacted considerably with the work of guys like Plantinga and Swinburne, but he also seems to be competent in interacting with the Scholastics and the Analytics (or in Miller's case, analytic scholastics). If you are at all familiar with him, what are your thoughts?

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  39. DJ:
    When the natural world baffles them, that confusion comes from a source outside of human invention.

    Confusion, as opposed to bafflement, ensues when I no longer "know my way around" as Wittgenstein put it. There are surprises and there are confusions. Surprises call factual truths into question, while confusions do the same for conceptual truths. (Schrödinger's cat again.) The latter is usually more puzzling than the former.

    TOF:
    Not always. Sometimes it stems from a poor conceptual model.

    Precisely. And in the case of QM, even though it would be improved on later, the strangeness of the new concepts never went away. Which has led to physicists splitting up into a "shut-up-and-calculate" crowd on the one hand and those who haven't given up on looking for better interpretations of QM on the other. (For a more technical treatment see here.) See also here for a glimpse into more modern approaches.

    TOF:
    That's because facts (quia) do not explain themselves.

    In my personal experience, one of the top 5 tells of gnus/naturalists/middle-aged "I know if-then-else so I must be a genius of logic" IT guys. We've already been there in this very thread.

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  40. Complexity of concepts vs complexity of phenomena

    (The following should mostly be read with "phenomena" meaning "physical phenomena".)

    Suppose someone wants to paint the walls of his living room and is having trouble choosing a colour. Then he is not experiencing "colour difficulties" in the sense that it's the colours themselves which are causing him trouble. His difficulties are colour-related, not colour-created (as in coming from the colours).

    Now consider someone who wants to construct a theory and is having difficulties coming up with a conceptual framework. He is not having "conceptual difficulties" caused by concepts. His problems are caused by the complexity of the phenomena he observes, not by the complexity of concepts which he hasn't even created yet. His difficulties are concept-related, not concept-created.

    Troubles with the complexity of concepts are related to the complexity of phenomena, but not created by them. That is why one should reject the claim that "nature causes conceptual complexity". Experiences of phenomena do not come with concepts attached.

    Science tries to deal with problems caused by the complexities of phenomena. Philosophy tries to deal with problems caused by the complexities of concepts. The term "complexity" appears in two different senses here.

    Physics creates concepts in order to reduce the complexity of the phenomena of nature. It is too difficult to observe every molecule of air in a room. Even if one could, it would be of little use. Concepts like Temperature, Pressure and Energy help with tracking what is going with the room's air in much more useful ways. These concepts as employed by physics are abstractions, not approximate pictures of "reality". The equations they are used in do not describe "physical reality". They describe abstract relations between instances of abstract concepts which can be used to make predictions. They inform the concrete actions of experimenters. This is what relates them to reality. Language, ordinary, scientific, or mathematical, would have no power at all if it didn't appear within regular patterns of actions. The concepts and equations of physics are tools which help with certain tasks related to coping with physical reality. They neither are pictures of reality nor reality itself.

    Concepts make the complexity of phenomena managable. Managing a diversity of phenomena is related to, but distinct from the problem of managing/reducing difficulties with concepts. A difficulty with the concept of Temperature may arise if Temperature is thought of as average kinetic energy, say, of the molecules of a solid body. Now imagine a block of ice sailing through space at 5000 mph. Should we say that the temperature of the ice must be quite high due to the high kinetic energy of its molecules? If so, why does the ice not melt? This is a conceptual difficulty. The empirical data are all in and no further experiments can help to clarify the issue raised.

    The conceptual complexity Newton had to deal with was easier handled than what Heisenberg faced. While the complexity of phenomena as seen through the eyes of theories has been reduced in the sense that more and more phenomena have been brought within the fold of more and more unified theories (the "electromagnetic force" instead of "electric forces" and "magnetic forces"), the concepts have become increasingly harder to understand. That is the price to be paid for unification. There are conceptual limits to unification, as TOF's example of the EdMoon, a nonsensical mereological sum, shows. But even if we do not cross such lines of sense, we cannot expect to explain all the diversity of the physical world with a rule as simple to handle and comprehend as 1+1=2. The complexity of the physical world is what it is. It is not going away. Thus more unifying theories are often bought with more complex, harder to understand theoretical concepts.

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  41. (contd.)

    Reducing the complexity of concepts is not the business of science. Gaining overviews of the complexity of phenomena is. To achieve a reduction of phenomenological complexity, abstraction is essential. Details of concrete reality must actually be ignored within theories: *This* thing *here* is not part of any theory. Theories could otherwise not have the power they have. To say that "theories are descriptions of reality" is a misunderstanding of the epistemic status of theories and their concepts, of how they actually function and of what their purpose is.

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  42. Is Don Jindra's point about the inability of philosophy in practice to often reach truth or in theory? Because if it is the latter, it is clearly the case that from disagreement amongst philosophers we simply cannot logically conclude that philosophy as a discipline cannot find truth. The most that could possibily we taken from his point is a psychological one about trusting our philosophical conclusions. Maybe he has some less obviously fallacious way of making his point, but he certainly needs to present his argument against philosophy in a fuller and more systematic way to have it taken seriously. However, he has shown himself time and again to revel in vagueness, equivocation, and fallacies, so we can hold out little hope he will do this.

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  43. Jeremy Taylor:
    [... re: reaching truth in philosophy ...] he certainly needs to present his argument against philosophy in a fuller and more systematic way to have it taken seriously.

    Yes, in order to dig himself out of his hole, he'd first have to think about questions such as "What kind of truth are we talking about?" And, as you point out, he'd have to learn how to apply reason and logic instead of merely saying the words.

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  44. Billy,

    "You observe events, but in order to make sense of any observation, you have to deduce from conclusions made outside of those observations."

    That's intuition. No, I don't know how that works and neither does anyone else.

    "You can't empirically confirm or support empiricism."

    Usually that's called circular reasoning. (Empiricism is true because empiricism says so.)


    Glenn,

    "Regarding what you actually wrote, however, my response is both related and relevant. You: 'I admit I see truth in terms of observation of 'what works' in the material world[.]'”

    Actually, that's a slight modification of what I wrote. The "or" is missing. What I wrote was, "I admit I see truth in terms of observation *or* of 'what works' in the material world." Maybe that's a quibble but I can't deduce the consequences of letting it pass unnoticed. :)

    "Suppose you do give it a tug, and the two boards remain fastened. Since, according to you, only a fool would deduce that the nailing of the two boards together worked, and you're not a fool, what would you conclude? And how?"

    I've worked as a test engineer. Suppose I nailed 10 pairs of boards together. Suppose I tested all of them and all but 1 pair held properly. When I nail the next two boards together what am I to deduce?

    Properly, I believe we're talking about induction, anyway.

    "But here's a question for you: will the two boards still be fastened together five minutes from now? An hour from now? Tomorrow? Next week? Next month?"

    Again, from my experience as a test engineer (though not mechanical test engineer) that question can only be answered by testing. We can make assumptions based on our lab tests, and can make some pretty good predictions, but the truth of the matter cannot be deduced for any particular pair of boards in the future. We have to wait for customer feedback.

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  45. TheOFloinn,

    "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." -- Werber Heisenberg

    True, so all the more reason to get the methods of questioning right. I think we all understand that this back-and-forth is basically about those methods. I think we all pretty much agree that there is something real that is the object of that questioning, no matter the methods, and that the goal is to understand it better. Yet since you cited this quote in reference to my "Physicists do not invent or create the natural world," I assume you mean to imply that the method of questioning could slip into a creative exercise. Again, I agree. This is my complaint against excessive use of logic and reason to clear up conceptual difficulties. Excessive use of logic and reason leads to concepts like act/potency -- concepts I believe clear up nothing.


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  46. pck,

    "the conceptual and the empirical complement each other"

    And I've never claimed otherwise. Too many of these fires are created over nothing. I know I'm the bad guy here. I don't mind that. But you guys are too anxious draw caricatures -- usually spooky things call gnus. I don't believe half the stuff I'm accused of. (Example: "I took 'And that is precisely what science does' to say that *all* concept elucication falls under the domain of science." -- never would I claim such idiocy.) Drawing attention to the complementary nature of the conceptual and the empirical isn't an accusation, but you seem to be implying the matter was in question. It's not in question. The question seems to be what science is allowed to claim.

    So when you say "Scientific theories are sources of conceptual difficulties," I see this as that tired question of whether the glass is half-full or half-empty. Theory itself is an attempt to a clear up conceptual difficulties. But any scientist should know the most solid theory doesn't answer every question. I feel like I'm wasting my time saying this (and much else) because you surely know it. Just as I know "A physicist who merely records data is not a proper physicist." You're correct; none of this is controversial. Yes, "there is a pretty sharp, though not perfect, line between the empirical and the conceptual." And yes, as I've pointed out here many times on various issues, many physicists and philosophers are not aware of their conceptual commitments until something or someone smacks them upside the head.

    But I do object to your insinuation that science is not science when the scientist puts on that philosopher's cap and tries to reduce the conceptual difficulties that science exposes. Conceptualization is a fundamental part of science. I believe that your attempt to say it's not is an attempt cast it as some sort of imbecile that needs your philosopher's cap. Of course, you could say my claim that philosophy is rudderless without the empirical is an attempt cast philosophy as some sort of imbecile that needs a scientist's cap. That's kind of true. :)

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  47. -- that's "attempt *to* cast," twice!

    Confessions of a reckless cut an paster.

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  48. pck,

    RE: “Physics is not about how the world is, it is about what we can say about the world”
    ― Niels Bohr


    Yes! And philosophers are in no better position.

    But I'll contribute:

    “No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical.”
    ― Niels Bohr

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  49. Anonymous,

    "This is just question begging. Try not to commit blatant fallacies Don. I know it is tough for you, but it will make the discussion more interesting.

    I'll be glad to try. Which part of my statement is question begging? I'm thinking you mean this part: "When theologians cannot agree on analysis of text, the source of that confusion is man-made." This could be seen as question begging. But in my defense, there is ample evidence that men write books. Surely we can agree books don't write themselves -- although if someone claims they do, all of our reasonable arguments against his theory would essentially beg the question.


    Jeremy Taylor,

    "The most that could possibly we taken from his point is a psychological one about trusting our philosophical conclusions."

    That's what you should take from my point. It's a matter of trust, of confidence. The more philosophers separate themselves from empirical observation, the less confident we can be in their findings. That's almost always my point. I keep asking, in my tediously lame way, how can we know (or be highly confident) they are right?

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  50. @Don Jindra: "Excessive use of logic and reason leads to concepts like act/potency -- concepts I believe clear up nothing."

    Do you likewise think that they "clear up nothing" in their original context? What I mean is, I first "got" the act/potency distinction when considering it regarding Aristotle's arguments about Parmenides, Zeno, and Heraclitus. And this was after first understanding why the problem of change was so pressing while reading Popper's wonderful *World of Parmenides*. (Of course, Popper knew a thing or two about contemporary physics.) It is sometimes useful when searching for common ground to return to sources.

    (I wonder whether you have similar problems with non-A-T philosophy and science. Would you similarly object to, say, Weizsacker's more-Kantian take? "Excessive use of logic and reason" seems like a broad accusation.)

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  51. DJ:
    But you guys are too anxious draw caricatures

    Any yet it is you who has inserted the most ludicrous claims, which no one ever made, or would make, countless times into these debates so you can pretend to have some petty rhetorical victory. Such as "science is better than religion because it doesn't depend on hearing voices on the road to Damascus". This sounds like the mind of a 17 year old whose political consciousness has just awoken and who is now railing against the injustices of the world as if he were the first to ever have discovered them. Everyone goes through this in some form, but my guess is that you're a bit too old for this shit.

    But I do object to your insinuation that science is not science when the scientist puts on that philosopher's cap and tries to reduce the conceptual difficulties that science exposes.

    Well of course its science (in a broad sense). All I'm saying is that it is not science in a narrow empirical sense. You say you understand this. And yet it is this narrow empirical sense that you and the gnus always invoke when you "argue" against religion. Which is precisely what exposes the gnus' fundamentalism. Comparing textual analysis to experiments in physics is just silly. It's not a rational argument to proclaim that only your own standards should count (no matter how many good reasons there are to apply these standards where they belong), when different types of truth claims are being compared. The world is too colourful for "truth" to have just one meaning. Which to some extent you are obviously able to acknowledge, right before you get muddled in the head again and return to square one with the nonsensical "science clears up conceptual difficulties". "Science" in the narrow empirical sense simply doesn't. Science in a broader sense which encompasses the philosophy of science does, but it is misleading not to mention the conceptual aspect here, because everyone's default place to go to in their thoughts when they hear "science" is empirical exploration, not conceptual clarification. Gnus in particular are on the average painfully unaware of the conceptual. If you say you aren't, then great. But you still fall into the gnu talk and mode of thought too easily.

    Yes, "there is a pretty sharp, though not perfect, line between the empirical and the conceptual." And yes, as I've pointed out here many times on various issues, many physicists and philosophers are not aware of their conceptual commitments until something or someone smacks them upside the head.

    Fantastic. So you have all the basics jotted down. Now go and learn to apply them properly. Best of luck.

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  52. Don Jindra,

    I've worked as a test engineer. Suppose I nailed 10 pairs of boards together. Suppose I tested all of them and all but 1 pair held properly. When I nail the next two boards together what am I to deduce?

    I don't know what you are to deduce. But here's what I would do, and the order in which I'd do it:

    1) examine the wood of the board-pair that failed to hold properly (maybe the wood is rotting, maybe the nails knocked out some knots in the bottom board, etc.);

    2) examine the nails used for the board-pair that failed to hold properly (maybe those particular nails are defective, maybe the wrong nails were used, maybe the nails were driven in at the wrong angle, etc.);

    3) examine the nail gun I used on the board-pair that failed to hold properly (maybe the nail gun is malfunctioning again, maybe it ran out of nails after the 9th pair of boards were nailed together, etc.)

    If some one of those actions led to my being in possession of data sufficient for correctly deducing the reason for the one board-pair not having held properly, and I made use of that data in an appropriate manner, then I would have, even if only informally or non-consciously, employed deduction in arriving at a specific reason why the one board-pair didn't hold properly.

    If, however, none of those actions provided me with data sufficient to correctly deduce why the one board-pair didn't hold properly, I might figure that -- given both recent experience and the absence or lack of relevant data enabling me to otherwise rationally account for that recent experience having been as it was -- it would not be unreasonable to deduce that there's a 10% chance the next pair of boards I attempt to nail together won't hold properly.

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  53. Don "science-Juan" Jindra:
    But I do object to your insinuation that science is not science when the scientist puts on that philosopher's cap and tries to reduce the conceptual difficulties that science exposes. Conceptualization is a fundamental part of science. I believe that your attempt to say it's not is an attempt cast it as some sort of imbecile that needs your philosopher's cap.

    As you have agreed that a physicist who merely records data is not a proper scientist, I don't see how you do not in fact hold the exact same view you lay out here. Except that "imbecile" is far too dramatic a characterization. "Not very useful" would be more accurate. Which you yourself have conceded. I don't understand where all these feelings of being attacked or insulted come from. Philosophy precedes science, conceptually and historically. There is no shame in acknowledging that. It doesn't diminish the value of science. It's not like scientists are asked to kiss the ring of his holiness philosophy.

    Imbecility comes in only when the dependence of science on the conceptual is ignored or even denied.
    Your problem seems to be that you cannot acknowledge the primacy of the conceptual. Conceptual frameworks always precede empirical investigation. That's a fact of life, not a dogma of philosophy. What's more, there are philosophical disciplines which are independent of the empirical, but there are no scientific disciplines which do not depend on concepts. This angers those who think of blabbering cocktail party bores whenever they hear the term "philosophy". You have shown some rather deep seated fear that science -- "the lady" (your words from a previous post) -- might come under attack, so Don "undistresser of damsels" Jindra must always be ready to come to the rescue. Hence your history of internet blog activities. However, you are way past your puberty.

    Of course, you could say my claim that philosophy is rudderless without the empirical is an attempt cast philosophy as some sort of imbecile that needs a scientist's cap. That's kind of true.

    And there we have it, the perfect example of a double standard together with an overgeneralization. It's true that, say, propositional logic is not useful without some kind of reference to real world phenomena, i.e. something that "fills out" logical forms (which btw. is also true of physical laws, as Bertrand Russell noted). But moral philosophy and many other philosophical subdisciplines do not have any use for the empirical standards of the natural sciences. They are simply not needed in certain domains of inquiry. One dogmatically (and imbecilically) dismisses them for not being part of the empirical at one's own peril.

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  54. DJ:
    RE: “Physics is not about how the world is, it is about what we can say about the world”
    ― Niels Bohr

    Yes! And philosophers are in no better position.


    Philosophers get to talk not just about the world, but also about reality. Scientific theories, as explained in a previous post, do not and cannot. My study is part of the world. Physics can talk about it (although its theories can't). But physics can not tell me if my study is part of reality. That is for philosophy to discuss. The question is of course different in kind and likewise are the answers which might be given.

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  55. laubadetriste:

    @Don Jindra: "Excessive use of logic and reason leads to concepts like act/potency -- concepts I believe clear up nothing."

    Do you likewise think that they "clear up nothing" in their original context? What I mean is, I first "got" the act/potency distinction when considering it regarding Aristotle's arguments about Parmenides, Zeno, and Heraclitus. And this was after first understanding why the problem of change was so pressing


    Apparently our science hero Jindra is unaware that quantum theory requires the calculation of superpositions/interferences of possible futures (potencies) in order to make correct predictions. Heisenberg himself saw this as a corroboration of Aristotle's A/P framework.

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  56. Just googled it, and guess what came up.

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  57. "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." -- Werber Heisenberg

    True, so all the more reason to get the methods of questioning right.


    You misunderstand what Heisenberg was getting at; viz., that the answers you receive are contingent on how you ask the questions. Recall that he denied the objective existence of subatomic particles, for example. If you look at things from a different perspective, you not only get different answers, you wind up asking different questions.

    Recall the example from Duhem of the two physicists who accepted different concepts of pressure, one that of Laplace, the other that of Lagrange and Poisson. From the same experiment with the same results, one found the hypothesis proven while the other found it falsified.

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  58. "Excessive use of logic and reason"

    That sounds more like Hegel. Logic and reason are for the little people. The truly enlightened just "get it," as in "It's an X thing. You wouldn't get it." And if you should get it but don't, then you have "false consciousness."

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  59. Anonymous pck said...

    laubadetriste:

    @Don Jindra: "Excessive use of logic and reason leads to concepts like act/potency -- concepts I believe clear up nothing."

    Do you likewise think that they "clear up nothing" in their original context? What I mean is, I first "got" the act/potency distinction when considering it regarding Aristotle's arguments about Parmenides, Zeno, and Heraclitus. And this was after first understanding why the problem of change was so pressing

    Apparently our science hero Jindra is unaware that quantum theory requires the calculation of superpositions/interferences of possible futures (potencies) in order to make correct predictions. Heisenberg himself saw this as a corroboration of Aristotle's A/P framework.

    February 9, 2016 at 12:15 PM"


    Say, it occurs to me that you are just the guy I've been wanting to talk to.

    See, I was in 6th grade I think it was, and we were studying kinematics for youth or something like it, and we had this metal ball at the top of an inclined plane with a groove running down it axially. And we were told that when the ball was rolling down the plane it had one kind of energy and when it was just sitting at the top it had another kind.

    I can't remember what the exact terms were. Maybe you could help me out on this.

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  60. @DNW:

    Heh. :) Like shooting "entities of a piscean nature moving within the confined spaces employed by the wine industry," that was.

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  61. DNW:
    [...] and when it was just sitting at the top it had another kind. I can't remember what the exact terms were. Maybe you could help me out on this.

    Yeah, good point about the potential to do work in classical mechanics. Real work by real balls. There seems to be a certain fondness in physics for illustrating potency and act using big balls.

    Hard to see why DJ doesn't like the A/P terminology. Perhaps it's because he never actualized his own potential.

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  62. Don Jindra,

    That's what you should take from my point. It's a matter of trust, of confidence. The more philosophers separate themselves from empirical observation, the less confident we can be in their findings. That's almost always my point. I keep asking, in my tediously lame way, how can we know (or be highly confident) they are right?

    But the point is that any valid argument make along this line, unless you put a lot more work into it than you have, wouldn't show that the methods of philosophy cannot reach truths, nor that a particular philosophical argument hasn't reached the truth. It would fallacious for you to suggest otherwise - disagreement amongst philosophers does not logically mean the methods of philosophy cannot find truth nor that particular philosophical claims are not correct.

    What your argument amounts to is only a psychological whisper in the ear about how much we can should be trust our reasoning. But you'd have to go into a lot more detail to deal more seriously with all the psychological issues at play. and even then it isn't clear what your argument amounts to - it isn't actually a refutation of any philosophical argument. If someone has such an argument, it isn't clear to me that such a psychological point should prevent consideration of the argument.

    And then there is the issue of inconsistency. Surely this argument of yours is a philosophical one, so why doesn't it fall victim to its own force? The argument against philosophy is a philosophical argument.

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  63. Oh, and as others have noted, science as a body knowledge makes extensive use of deductive reasoning and logic. It is not at all clear how you would go about hanging onto this reasoning and logic whilst disallowing reasoning and logic that is used to support philosophical, logic, or mathematical inquiries. You haven't really specified just what it means to tie logic and reason to empirical evidence. The First Way, for example, reasons from empirical observation of motion or change. Why is this chain of reasoning invalid whereas scientific investigation into motion not? How do you rule out the first kind of inquiry without hamstringing the reason required for the second?

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  64. - when I say your argument doesn't show particular philosophical claims are not correct, I obviously mean the chains of reasoning as well as the claim or conclusion at the end of them.

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  65. @ Don Jindra: "That's what you should take from my point. It's a matter of trust, of confidence. The more philosophers separate themselves from empirical observation, the less confident we can be in their findings. That's almost always my point. I keep asking, in my tediously lame way, how can we know (or be highly confident) they are right?"

    If great *trust* and *confidence* are what you object to, have you tried reading about Pyrrhonian skepticism? That was supposed to be therapeutic, and sometimes was.

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  66. Is Don Jindra one of those people who think that the cosmological arguments are just "thought" exercises, and the laws of logic/metaphysical reasoning cannot tell us anything about reality? If so I would just like to ask how the best way to respond to people like this as I see them everywhere online(plus I'm having trouble adequately thinking of responses to them), and that the arguments through logic and reason do tell us about aspects of reality that are true.

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  67. Dear Anonymous: A way to start in your response might be to point out that cosmological arguments (as one can see by the name itself) BEGIN with empirical observations of the cosmos around us. However, if we are limited to these empirical observations, we are no better off than a camera. Our reason (the use of what we know to infer things we do not know) allows us to progress beyond these empirical observations to infer beliefs regarding other things. If this use of inference is not accepted, that means the use of logic and reason is not accepted, despite all the claims of the New Atheists to be the "rational" group.

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  68. @Craig Payne,
    Thanks for the response. So if the skeptic replies with we should only believe things we have scientific/empirical evidence for I should respond with how can he verify that claim by the methods he just stated. That can be easily done. But what if he still goes on about how the CA argues for something outside the universe, but all of reality we know which we use to make things such as the laws of logic so far is in this universe and physical, thus the logical reasoning can't tell us about anything not in this universe(I mean in this context all of physical reality even for something like a multiverse)?

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  69. "So if the skeptic replies with we should only believe things we have scientific/empirical evidence for I should respond with how can he verify that claim by the methods he just stated. That can be easily done. But what if he still goes on"

    If he still goes on, I would insist on this. Where in the scientific / empirical world do we find the claim that scientific / empirical knowledge is the only sort of meaningful knowledge? I think it's time we recognize that most of the atheists we encounter are not all that philosophically astute; often they really don't recognize that this blows their position out of the water. They just continue blustering. (I am not including, of course, those atheists who actually have philosophical reasons for their position.)

    Even the laws of logic do not actually have to be instantiated in this physical universe in order to be seen as true. For example, if A = B and B = C, we know that A = C. But how do we KNOW that? How do we know that it not only is true, but will always be true? How tall is A? How much does B weigh? Does the logical inference have to be physically instantiated in order to be seen as true? If this is just a "thought experiment," then, again, I would ask if they reject the conclusion. If so, they are irrational. If that doesn't bother them, it doesn't bother me, but I don't have to argue with them any more. What's the use of arguing logically with someone who does not recognize when something has been proven?

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  70. Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Is Don Jindra one of those people who think that the cosmological arguments are just "thought" exercises, and the laws of logic/metaphysical reasoning cannot tell us anything about reality? If so I would just like to ask how the best way to respond to people like this as I see them everywhere online(plus I'm having trouble adequately thinking of responses to them), and that the arguments through logic and reason do tell us about aspects of reality that are true.

    February 10, 2016 at 4:43 AM"




    You don't need to worry about thinking of responses to them, since you need to be more or less on the same page as to what if anything at all can be justifiably taken as indubitable reality, before even proceeding that far.

    In short, you have to know, and they would have to be willing to answer: "What is it that you would allow as demonstrating the real?"

    And, as you have seen, much of what we have been doing here as we argue back and forth, is trying to sort out what each other's presuppositions are regarding what constitutes publicly respectable evidence, and what legitimate or admissible ways there are of obtaining it, how far it is to be relied upon, and what if any social allegiance is owed to the process and product.

    And as you can also see, we have no agreement on even so much as that.

    Payne, refers to Skepticism here, and in thinking for a moment about it, I agree that an understanding of what radical skepticism is, is essential to grasping whether you can in fact even communicate with someone in a way that really resolves and issue, or whether they are really a kind of closet solipsist or subjective idealist in temperament if not explicit dogma. As lawyers will tell you, this malady has penetrated so far into popular culture that it is causing some havoc - as we have seen in the news - with the functioning of the jury system in some places on some occasions.

    Years ago I used the term "natural law" in an argument relating to political rights. After being challenged on it with frivolous and ignorant references to Grizzly bears, I explained that the term referred not to the great outdoors, but to the teleologically derived normative inferences which underlay and structured the form and validity of man's indisputably purposive (As even Herbert Hart admitted) project of positive law.

    "Prove these rights!" was the reply.

    "What standard of proof will you accept?" I asked.

    "It is your job to figure that out" was the pert rejoinder.

    At that moment it became clear that what the person was demanding was that I break the wall of his petulant autism - with argument. That is, to treat a psychological condition as it were, with a syllogism.

    When someone in a forum, as some have done here, begin deriding the laws of logic, there is no reasoning with them. Reasoning as done by men is over; and all that is left TO THEM are primate display behaviors in the form of grunting jibes and retorts.

    All that is left in the way of reasoning TO YOU as regards them, is for you to talk about, to illustrate, the implications of their stance for whatever, if any positive assertions they might themselves make. Which, is why you see reductios being performed here so often.

    If you cannot convince someone who is surreptitiously and privately employing assumptions which he rejects in public, who is basically therefore refusing to argue in good faith, you can at least hold up a mirror, exposing his dirty little secret to any willing to look.

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  71. For

    " grasping whether you can in fact even communicate with someone in a way that really resolves and issue,"

    Read,

    " ... that really resolves an issue, ..."

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  72. @DNW and Craig Payne
    I think I get it now. If the skeptic claims all knowledge is known through science/empirical proof then I can ask him to prove the laws of logic this way. If he can't then he undermines his position as the inability to do so proves this claim false, and if he tries to argue further he is only undermining logic. But what if he responds that the laws of logic are in our minds, and since our minds are material they are too?

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  73. Nothing physical is either true or false; it simply is.

    If the laws of logic in our minds (or our minds themselves) are simply physical, then the laws of logic have no relation to anything outside our minds except a physical relation; in order words, these atoms are inside my head, and those other atoms are over there.

    Atoms don't have a relationship of truth or falsity to each other. So no law of logic in my mind has any relation of truth or falsity to anything else in the physical world. Neither do my other thoughts, since they also are simply physical atoms moving around.

    This implies that no one has ever had a true or false thought.

    This implication is absurd.

    However, if a view has an absurd implication, the view is false.

    So the view that our minds, the laws of logic, and our other thoughts are purely physical is a false view.

    ReplyDelete


  74. Anonymous Anonymous said...

    @DNW and Craig Payne
    I think I get it now. If the skeptic claims all knowledge is known through science/empirical proof then I can ask him to prove the laws of logic this way. If he can't then he undermines his position as the inability to do so proves this claim false, and if he tries to argue further he is only undermining logic. But what if he responds that the laws of logic are in our minds, and since our minds are material they are too?

    February 10, 2016 at 9:24 AM"


    As Payne observes, the problem with denying the law of non-contradiction, is that you cannot make coherent truth claims yourself. He who does that, and wishes not to become a laughingstock can only resort to a behaviorist anthropology wherein he consistently ceases to make any kind of truth claims, and merely roots around, so to speak.

    But even those seeking refuge from the idea of propositional truth and the laws of logic which the notion entails, typically refuse to go whole hog; preferring to act the sniggering beast only when it suits them.

    My suggestion is that you not bother for now trying to reason with them as if you are playing a game of chess, and just observe for the time being what their own moves reveal relative to what they are saying for public consumption - in order to "win" an argument.

    Don't get caught up in a trash talking or belching contest.

    Trust me, you are better off not wasting your time in that manner. Better to watch closely what is really going on, than to try and box with shadows.

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  75. laubadetriste,

    "If great *trust* and *confidence* are what you object to, have you tried reading about Pyrrhonian skepticism?"

    I'm not familiar with Pyrrhonian skepticism. I do agree little if anything can be known for certain. I distrust all claims of certainty. Demands for absolute certainty are usually irrational, IMO. So I should read more on this Pyrrhonian skepticism.


    Jeremy Taylor,

    "disagreement amongst philosophers does not logically mean the methods of philosophy cannot find truth nor that particular philosophical claims are not correct."

    True. But at what point should we throw in the towel and admit all this hopeful energy is getting us nowhere? That's the conclusion Francis Bacon reached 400 years ago. I think he was correct to expect better results.


    "Surely this argument of yours is a philosophical one, so why doesn't it fall victim to its own force? The argument against philosophy is a philosophical argument."

    My argument is against bad philosophy, not philosophy per se. Science, after all, is philosophy.


    "It is not at all clear how you would go about hanging onto this reasoning and logic whilst disallowing reasoning and logic that is used to support philosophical, logic, or mathematical inquiries."

    I don't want to disallowing reasoning and logic. But it needs grounding. Empirical data can do that. IOW, we all start from certain assumptions. We should never forget they are mere assumptions no matter how much we believe them. If we use pure logic and reason and prove Y is true, this is not a truth. It's an expectation of truth -- or provisional truth -- based on our assumptions. It's a first step toward what might be true. Its truth value should then be checked by other means.

    Ignoring the fact that its assumptions are dubious, your First Way example terminates with a conclusion that cannot be checked by other means.

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  76. pck,

    First the boring stuff...

    I mention that you're "too anxious draw caricatures" and how do you respond? You draw this caricature:

    "Any yet it is you who has inserted the most ludicrous claims...Such as 'science is better than religion because it doesn't depend on hearing voices on the road to Damascus'. This sounds like the mind of a 17 year old whose political consciousness has just awoken and who is now railing against the injustices of the world as if he were the first to ever have discovered them."

    Your job is too easy when you simply create a quote I never said, and never would say.


    "And yet it is this narrow empirical sense that you and the gnus always invoke when you 'argue' against religion."

    Please give me an example from my pen, not some 'gnu's pen. I won't defend anyone but me. Just so you know, I rarely read the the 'gnus'. I did read one of Sam Harris's books and thought it was terrible, particularly when he got all mushy about Eastern religion.


    "Except that 'imbecile' is far too dramatic a characterization. 'Not very useful' would be more accurate.

    You're right. 'Not very useful' is much more accurate. My word choice was for the following reason. I was trying to convey the tone of the rhetoric that you apply to these people called 'gnus' who you think are unaware of the conceptual. You do occasionally make them sound like imbeciles, at least that's the way I interpret your tone.


    "You have shown some rather deep seated fear that science ... might come under attack"

    Science is on firm ground. It's way too successful for any serious attack. The fear you think you see in me isn't there at all. I don't debate people out of fear. I like debating. Beyond that, I have this quaint notion that questionable beliefs should be questioned. That questioning is indispensable to philosophy.


    Me: "Of course, you could say my claim that philosophy is rudderless without the empirical is an attempt cast philosophy as some sort of imbecile that needs a scientist's cap. That's kind of true."

    pck: "And there we have it, the perfect example of a double standard together with an overgeneralization."

    Are you sure you understood me? Because I don't understand your response. I was merely saying it's kind of true that the complaint I have against your position can be fired back at me by you. This was an attempt by me of saying, in effect, I'm aware that I should be held to the same standard as I set for you.

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  77. pck,

    "Conceptual frameworks always precede empirical investigation. That's a fact of life"

    Are you a father by any chance? Have you paid attention to how infants investigate the world? I found it fascinating to watch how my sons learned right out of the gate. I don't think infants are born with what we could call a conceptual framework. But they do seem to be persistent empiricists. Our opinions on the facts of life are not going to coincide. "Conceptual framework" is a vague term. I asked earlier for you to help clear that up. Maybe it's impossible. We don't know enough about the brain yet. But I suspect that when we do know, we'll find that concepts are intimately intertwined with sensory experience. A conceptual framework is so dependent on the empirical that it cannot precede empirical observation. It would be more accurate (though still vague) to say conceptual frameworks are learned through experience. At least that's my opinion for now.


    "But moral philosophy and many other philosophical subdisciplines do not have any use for the empirical standards of the natural sciences."

    Now we circle back to an issue I brought up long ago.

    What is the proper moral philosophy?

    You say moral philosophers have no use for empirical standards of the natural sciences. I say compare the success of modern science (< 4 centuries old) to the failure of moral philosophy (> 2 millennia old). Then ask what are the causes for this failure? Could it be because empirical standards are thought to be irrelevant to the issue? What conceptual framework should be used? Utilitarianism? Virtue ethics? Ethical Intuitionism? Consequentialism? etc...? Could it be that none of these conceptual frameworks offer real help? Jean Piaget wrote about how children learn right from wrong while playing marbles ("The Moral Judgment of the Child"). He described the sort of experiences that teach us morality. Players observe what happens when they (mis)behave certain ways. Could it be that moral philosophers will never be able to provide any better justification for morality than the simple social interaction of children?

    "Philosophers get to talk not just about the world, but also about reality....But physics can not tell me if my study is part of reality."

    Philosophers have been at this business for a long time. I see no reason to believe they'll ever be able to deduce a reality that's more compelling than the world we explored as infants.

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  78. pck,

    "Heisenberg himself saw this as a corroboration of Aristotle's A/P framework."

    I've seen some try to make this connection. But Heisenberg sure didn't suggest that framework was a satisfactory explanation.

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  79. If the skeptic claims all knowledge is known through science/empirical proof then I can ask him to prove the laws of logic this way.

    IIRC it was experimental physicist Hermann von Helmholtz who noted that the transitivity of the relation of equality (A=B & B=C => A=C) goes into the calibration of every measuring apparatus. Therefore it is impossible to avoid circular reasoning in any purported experimental proof of the principle.

    Laws of logic are of a different kind than empirically derived laws. Laws of logic are rules of language, they express norms of representation. They show how we talk, not what the world is like. (It is not experimentally discovered that 1+1 equals 2 or that an object cannot be red and green all over at the same time.)

    However, if a view has an absurd implication, the view is false.

    Case in point. Upon encountering an absurdity, we call the responsible view "false". This is part of how we deploy the concept of implication, not something decided by the way certain experiences turn out.

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  80. When someone in a forum, as some have done here, begin deriding the laws of logic, there is no reasoning with them. Reasoning as done by men is over; and all that is left TO THEM are primate display behaviors in the form of grunting jibes and retorts.

    Indeed. One of the ways you can be sure you have a good argument is by witnessing the bizarre contortions some people will twist themselves into in attempting to escape the conclusion.

    Something else I read today that seems relevant to the discussion:

    http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/2016/02/10/on-leaving-town/

    Sorry, too lazy and too dense to learn how to put up a proper link.

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  81. DJ:
    Science is on firm ground. It's way too successful for any serious attack.

    I was talking about attacks on science in a political or ideological sense.

    Are you sure you understood me? Because I don't understand your response. I was merely saying it's kind of true that the complaint I have against your position can be fired back at me by you. This was an attempt by me of saying, in effect, I'm aware that I should be held to the same standard as I set for you.

    Got it. I didn't think that your "that's kind of true" was supposed to refer to "you could say ..." because "you could say X" cannot be "kind of true". So I took it to refer to X instead, which was not your intention.

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  82. DJ:
    Are you a father by any chance? Have you paid attention to how infants investigate the world? I found it fascinating to watch how my sons learned right out of the gate. I don't think infants are born with what we could call a conceptual framework. But they do seem to be persistent empiricists.

    No kids, and I'm not a teacher by training, but I have many years of experience in teaching people within a wide range of ages (4-35). I have put many hours into developing as coherent a picture as possible of how the intellect is formed and how teaching, particularly of mathematics, may be changed to produce better results than it usually does.

    Your remark about kids being empiricists is very revealing. It may very well be the single most significant source of your confusion. Of course I understand how one may arrive at such a conclusion, since children learn a lot by trial and error. But it is a grave error to maintain that trial and error is an early form of empirical science.

    Not only are kids not empiricists (or proto-scientists), but they cannot possibly be. To be an empiricist, you need to be able to theorize. Young children cannot do that. Here's why:

    When children begin to learn to cope with the world as they grow up, they start out without any capacity for intellectual judgements ("reason"). Which is why we don't hold them accountable for their actions until they have reached a certain age and/or degree of maturity.

    There is a fundamental difference between a child learning new concepts and a scientist creating a theory. To form a theory one requires mastery of language. A child learns language first by copying behaviour from people in its environment (parents, other kids, etc.). Over time it acquires abilities to enagage in certain regular practices, both linguistic and non-linguistic. After a while, what began as drill and imitation becomes a background of abilites/understanding/knowledge which forms the basis and reference point for the child's expanding intellectual capacities. It can now make judgements, against this background. Once this stage has been reached (there is of course not clear cut threshold), responsibility becomes possible. The background can itself not be questioned in its entirety (though it can change or be changed), because it is part of what makes rational thought possible in the first place. The linguistic part of the background will act as a collection of norms of representation.

    Only after having mastered ordinary language can we go on to create theories. Theories are artificial languages built on top of ordinary language. Theoretical concepts ultimately always refer back to concepts of ordinary language. (Otherwise they are just empty symbolic games like chess or math without applications.) For example, not botanist can afford not to know what "tree" means, even though "tree" is not part of the language of botany.

    (continued)

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  83. What you call "kids being empiricists" are actually certain types of changes (through trial and error, instruction and correction by adults, etc.) which over time create the background that makes intellectual abilities possible in the first place. Since empiricism is itself an intellectual enterprise (based on the ability to construct and test theories), the concept cannot be invoked to explain or describe the formation of children's intellects. Saying that children learn by forming and testing theories or proto-theories is circular logic.

    You will probably reply that this is too narrow a definition of empiricism. But what we call it doens not matter. The point, again, is that that which makes the intellect possible in the first place cannot be invoked to explain that same intellect. Just like one cannot learn the meaning of words by reading a dictionary. There has to be some linguistic skill already in place before dictionaries can become useful. It is the same with ordinary language and theories.

    A blunt "whatever works" view of empiricism is either self-contradictory or vacuous. If any human-world interaction which leads to some adaptation in behaviour is part of "empiricism", then empiricism is (a) not an -ism and (b) does not explain anything.

    Now that the confusion which is responsible for giving you the idea that science should be seen as dominant over and more fundamental than philosophy has been laid out clearly, the case of Don Jindra can be laid to rest for good. Thanks for the clarification and goodbye.

    PS: In the inevitable (and inevitably confused) response to this (which I will not follow up to any more), try to avoid endless diatribes about how minds (or worse, brains) form "models of reality" upon which they seize and which they continuously improve with the aid of further experiences. Such theories are all susceptible to the same criticism as I have laid out above. For example, the concept of "representation" (of slices of the world by brain structures) cannot be invoked to explain the intellect, since all representation logically presupposes an intellect. (The error usually committed is to mistake an image of X for a representation of X. The surface of a mountain lake may reflect an image of the sky, but it does not represent the sky, because the lake does not do anything with the reflection. Likewise, data in a database only represents information insofar as someone will retrieve it and put it to use. The argument carries over to brain structures and processes.)

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  84. Don Jindra writes,


    True. But at what point should we throw in the towel and admit all this hopeful energy is getting us nowhere? That's the conclusion Francis Bacon reached 400 years ago. I think he was correct to expect better results.

    Well, again, as an argument against any particular philosophical argument this is just fallacious. And, as others have pointed out, there is little sophisticated or meaningful attempt to address the different kinds of knowledge or the particularities of philosophical knowledge, or to construct a proper psychological account, or even to properly show what your psychological arguments means.


    My argument is against bad philosophy, not philosophy per se. Science, after all, is philosophy.

    At the moment you don't really have an argument. In what sense is it against just bad philosophy?

    I don't want to disallowing reasoning and logic. But it needs grounding. Empirical data can do that. IOW, we all start from certain assumptions. We should never forget they are mere assumptions no matter how much we believe them. If we use pure logic and reason and prove Y is true, this is not a truth. It's an expectation of truth -- or provisional truth -- based on our assumptions. It's a first step toward what might be true. Its truth value should then be checked by other means.

    Ignoring the fact that its assumptions are dubious, your First Way example terminates with a conclusion that cannot be checked by other means.


    This is not an explanation. What does it mean to ground logic and reason and mathematics? Why can't you make what deductions and chains of reasoning are valid, sound, and strong? Does this not hamstring reason and logic and maths? Much of logic or maths is based on rational or deductive understanding rather than based in empirical observations. But it seems problematic to rule out such areas and yet retain the logic and maths needed to do science.

    At the moment, all you have is a vague claim that philosophers disagree and psychological insinuations based on this. This can in no way support the claims you are making.

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  85. DNW:
    "Prove these rights!" was the reply.

    "What standard of proof will you accept?" I asked.

    "It is your job to figure that out" was the pert rejoinder.

    At that moment it became clear that what the person was demanding was that I break the wall of his petulant autism - with argument. That is, to treat a psychological condition as it were, with a syllogism.


    Thanks for that, well put. In a situation like this, only cooperation, not competition, will show a way forward.

    When I studied math, I was part of a study group together with 4 other guys. Over the course of more than 5 years we got together to work on the clarification of proofs and concepts. I cannot recall a single time in which there was a standoff between any of us. Ego took a backseat and instead of defending "positions", everyone worked together towards the best understanding we could come up with. Quite possibly the most satisfying and productive intellectual experience of my life.

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  86. Jeremy Taylor:
    What does it mean to ground logic and reason and mathematics?

    What DJ does not and never will get is that his empiricism is in fact grounded by logic (= non-empirically established norms of talking about the world) and not the other way around. He doesn't get that an observation is not the same as mere seeing (or hearing, smelling, etc.), and that in order to go from seeing to an observation (and thus to empirical facts), one needs a conceptual framework to be in place which itself cannot be grounded in "brute" experiences, but which develops out of learned practices that eventually form a background of knowledge and understanding against which empirical true/false dichotomies become possible in the first place.

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  87. Gottfried said...


    'When someone in a forum, as some have done here, begin deriding the laws of logic, there is no reasoning with them. Reasoning as done by men is over; and all that is left TO THEM are primate display behaviors in the form of grunting jibes and retorts.'

    Indeed. One of the ways you can be sure you have a good argument is by witnessing the bizarre contortions some people will twist themselves into in attempting to escape the conclusion.

    Something else I read today that seems relevant to the discussion:

    http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/2016/02/10/on-leaving-town/

    Sorry, too lazy and too dense to learn how to put up a proper link.

    February 10, 2016 at 12:36 PM"



    By the way. You and those who have been visiting this site for a while will realize, but others might not, that by "here" I do not mean this thread, but mean Ed Feser's blog in general, and over time.

    Whatever the details of Don's exchanges with any and/or all, I did not have him in mind with that remark.

    There have been plenty of others who have come and gone who fit the bill better.

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  88. @pck
    What do you mean by the laws of logic don't show us what the world is like? Do you mean that they have no bearing on reality and are just "thought" exercises?

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  89. Anonymous:
    What do you mean by the laws of logic don't show us what the world is like?

    What I mean is that the laws of logic cannot decide questions about empirical facts ("the world"), such as whether there is oxygen on the moon or not. The laws of logic are part of the conceptual framework which determines what counts as there being oxygen on the moon. So logic does not settle the question. Rather, logic is part of how we form the question.

    What we can settle from our armchairs is whether there is an object on the moon that has a mass of both 2 and 3 kgs at the same time. We don't have to look at any empirical facts to know that there is no such thing. It is not some feature of the world that prevents such an object from existing, but the way we use the term "mass". (Note that "use" not merely references how the word "mass" is applied within language but also all accompanying non-linguistic practices involving mass, such as measuring weights, carrying boulders from A to B, etc.)

    We know what it would "look like" if there was oxygen on the moon. But an object which has two different masses at the same time is not even imaginable. Such a phenomenon is logically impossible because that is not how we deploy the concept of mass.

    Do you mean that they have no bearing on reality and are just "thought" exercises?

    No, they're definitely not just excercises. What counts as "real" depends on the ways in which we conceptualize. It is not the world that makes round squares impossible, but the way we classify objects by talking about them in certain ways.

    A clearer example of such a logical impossibility is perhaps the fact that no object can be red and green all over. This is not a fact prevented by features of physical reality. An object may well give off light at 650nm (red) and 510nm (green) at the same time. If our eyes were different and included lots of little prisms, we might be able to experience the composition of different wavelengths instead of seeing one composite colour (in this case yellow). For humans with eyes like that, introducing the concept of "being red and green all over" may well be useful. But they still might use the term "yellow" to refer to the experience if they so chose.

    Or consider chess, where two pieces cannot occupy the same square. This is perfectly physically possible on an actual chessboard, but impossible according to the rules and logic of the game. Again we see that logic/rules do not say anything about the world (in this case about chessboards), but they nevertheless have a bearing on reality, namely on how the game of chess is played. The bearing of logic on reality is immanent in rules of language and their associated practices, not a kind of externally imposed "super-physics" which forces nature to conform to certain shapes or forms.

    The use of "reality" is different in "there really is no oxygen on the moon" and "there really is no such thing as a round square". Empirical and logical/conceptual truths differ in kind, even though the use of concepts is involved in both.

    While the world may make certain concepts useful (to us), it does not necessitate them. What counts as "real" depends as much on the way we talk about the world as it depends on the world itself.

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  90. What counts as "real" depends as much on the way we talk about the world as it depends on the world itself.

    This should be: "What is "real" depends as much ..."

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  91. Don Jindra,

    I distrust all claims of certainty.

    I doubt that that is genuinely true.

    And in doubting that that is genuinely true, I cannot help but to wonder whether: a) you are misrepresenting the truth; b) you are ignorant of the truth; or, c) you don't know what you are talking about.

    But in order that you may have an opportunity to banish my doubt that you distrust all claims of certainty, I will make two claims of certainty for you to distrust.

    Of course, in order to banish my doubt that you distrust all claims of certainty, it won't be enough for you to merely distrust the two claims of certainty I'm about to make; you'll also have to prove that you distrust them.

    Here are the two claims of certainty for you to prove that you distrust:

    1. It is certain that the leaves of some trees change color during Autumn.

    2. That the leaves of some trees change color during Autumn is evident to our senses.

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  92. (Second attempt: The word 'banish' is too strong; replace it with 'reduce'.)

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  93. pck,

    "What you call 'kids being empiricists' are actually certain types of changes (through trial and error, instruction and correction by adults, etc.) which over time create the background that makes intellectual abilities possible in the first place."

    What is the difference between that and my contention that experience (aka, empirical data) must precede conceptual frameworks? Surely intellectual ability must precede formation of a conceptual framework.

    I agree we don't teach children the meaning of words by reading a dictionary. We do it with sensory input. I doubt a conceptual framework has to be in place before a word makes sense. Have you seen the 1962 film The Miracle Worker? It powerfully dramatizes that moment of intuition that every child goes through. I don't think intuition can be properly called a conceptual framework. It's definitely not simply the copying of adult behavior. Probably intuition helps form any conceptual framework, from the child to the philosopher.

    Let's say I have conceptual framework X. What causes me to reject X in favor of Y? I say it has to be new empirical input. It cannot be caused by some interim conceptual framework that popped up in a vacuum. It cannot be a sudden unexplained loss of the previous one. We have a natural instinct to try to make sense of the world. That's the driving force behind our need to create these conceptual frameworks. We're not born with these frameworks. Therefore that first one must come from something other than a conceptual framework. If it's true for the first, it's probably true for the rest. That's where logic and reasoning leads me. It could be wrong. Maybe we'll know if science unlocks the workings of the brain. :)

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  94. DJ:
    experience (aka, empirical data)

    If experience is the empirical, then life is science and we're all "natural scientists". Apart from the fact that that is not at all how we deploy the concept of science, it makes no sense to have debates or investigations based on a notion so far-reaching. It's like saying that "everything is art" and taking it literally. With so broad a concept you wind up saying exactly nothing. So we're done here. The Jindra project has been exposed as vacuous. It only took me so long to see what the root cause of your troubles is because your writing is terribly imprecise. Goodbye.

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  95. @Don Jindra: "I'm not familiar with Pyrrhonian skepticism. I do agree little if anything can be known for certain. I distrust all claims of certainty. Demands for absolute certainty are usually irrational, IMO. So I should read more on this Pyrrhonian skepticism."

    You should, for fun if for no other reason. It's a fun book (really). And short, especially the first edition (running from Erasmus to Spinoza). For those too who, after castigating the New Atheists generally, proceed to make reasonable exception for Oppy, Sobel, Mackie, Martin, Kaufmann, Lowder, et al., and also want to know some skeptic/secular/atheist/infidel history, there are no better books. (Though I have before mentioned also Kors and Allen.) I think most who have read some histories of philosophy must occasionally have had the experience of putting down their books, numb with names and themes and tendencies, and have sighed a sigh at one-damn-thing-after-another. But every once in a while one reads a book containing, so to speak, a synoptic vision. Popkin's is such a book.

    Plus, to your earlier point, pyrrhonism came to be largely to combat ancient dogmatisms.

    "Ignoring the fact that its assumptions are dubious, your First Way..."

    I presume you have a powerful critique of those assumptions you have yet to share with us. Me, I've always sensed that something was wrong with that terribly dubious observation, that there is change in the world... ;-)

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  96. Correction: for *observation,* read instead the pleonastic *empirical observation*...

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  97. [Insert joke about how the incorrigibly intransigent among us would indeed be the best candidates to deny change.]

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  98. The Jindra project has been exposed as vacuous.

    Don's project seems to be radical. It would, for example, seem to require a complete rebuilding of mathematics and logic on strictly empirical lines, whatever that means and so far as that is even possible. Yet he gives no proper explanation of his argument and concerns, and relies on a vague psychological insinuation to support them.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I also can't understand just how you could rule out non-empirical aspects of logic and mathematics (even accepting one can give a properly empiricist account of our knowledge and use of even these aspects) and not undermine the rest. For example, presumably in Don's mathematics there are no irrational numbers or incommensurable ratios, as these are known only intellectually. Now, one, what real reason does Don have to stop us deducing these, except a vague claim about us not being to trust our deductions; and, two, does this not endanger all the other aspects of mathematics - if you are saying what seems to follow from a concept cannot be trusted, can we trust our knowledge of that concept? At the very least Don owes us a detailed explanation why certain valid inferences about such concepts are illegitimate to follow, whilst others are not.

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  99. Jeremy Taylor:
    Don's project seems to be radical.

    It should probably not even be graced with the term "project" as there is no discernible systematic approach to anything there, just a bunch of instances of "I see/hear/feel X". A notion of X can then only be a name "X" given to an experience. One could write a book about everything that is wrong with such an impoverished and illogical attempt to descibe the human intellect and human language. (For example, it is clear that only a small part of language is in the business of naming things.)

    If one "grounds" everything in experiences, how can one distinguish between a mirage of an oasis and a real oasis? Suppose you get there and find the place to be all sand, how do you conclude that nothing had ever been there? The oasis might have been real when you first saw it and then just vanished right before you got there. If deductions are not allowed, all experiences suddenly have equal weight with regard to any possible explanation. Not a good place for a scientist to be in.

    For example, presumably in Don's mathematics there are no irrational numbers or incommensurable ratios, as these are known only intellectually.

    It's possible to get irrational numbers in a constructivist manner from the notion of counting, demonstrated roughly a century ago by Brouwer. Infinite sets in this approach are rules which produce never-ending sequences of mathematical objects ("potential infinities"), as opposed to the traditional notion of "actual infinities" which axiomatically assumes the existence of a fully formed infinite set. But even the construction of this so-called "intuitionist" math requires some logic as a framework which cannot itself be deduced from the idea or practice of counting. Brouwer manages to do without the law of the excluded middle though, which in itself is quite interesting.

    what real reason does Don have to stop us deducing these, except a vague claim about us not being to trust our deductions

    He would allow the construction on paper, but deny that it corresponds to anything in reality until someone finds a useful application for the formalism. It's pure pragmatism, gut stuff, not a theory, or a systematic approach of any kind.

    The part about numbers not corresponding to anything in the physical world is correct, but that is already true for the natural numbers. Arithmetic consists of rules of transformation which we apply selectively to phenomena in the world. 2 glasses of water emptied into 1 big glass gives 1 big glass of water but that does not force us to say that 1+1=1. Although we could say that. But then we would run into trouble because together with 1+1=2 it would follow that 1=2. Or not, because deductions are not allowed. We could still allow 1=2 though. Math would cease to be useful, but having a formalism that allows 1=2 does not make your pen explode or vanish in a puff of logic.

    if you are saying what seems to follow from a concept cannot be trusted, can we trust our knowledge of that concept?

    The confusion here is that we don't "trust" any concept in the same way we trust an often confirmed empirical regularity. We do not "trust" the rules of chess. We fix them and then we use them. Knowing a concept is to know how, where and when to apply it. Concepts fix practices. They determine what counts as true, successful, admirable, etc., but they are not true/false, successful/unsuccessful or admirable/deplorable themselves. Just like the rules of chess. (One may of course trust a concept in the sense that one hopes that its employ will lead to some desired aim.)

    Concepts can at worst be self-contradictory, but only if they refer to other concepts for which we have already fixed what counts as a contradiction (e.g. objects being red and green all over).

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  100. Jeremy Taylor quoting Don Jindra: >"Ignoring the fact that its assumptions are dubious, your First Way example terminates with a conclusion that cannot be checked by other means."
    This is not an explanation.

    PCK: He doesn't get that an observation is not the same as mere seeing

    Yes, it seems he has in some way decided that data is conclusive but deduction is not; which is of course backwards. Empiricking provides just another premise, from which (with suitable additional premises) we may deductively draw some conclusion — even if the reasoning has been loaded up-front, and the empiricking tacked on at the end.


    In my personal experience, one of the top 5 tells of gnus/naturalists/middle-aged "I know if-then-else so I must be a genius of logic" IT guys.

    I was wondering about that... perhaps that is in part because they are the sort of people who are interested in science, but not being scientsts, they get the somewhat polished-up dumbed-down layman's view of science, which carries an air of smooth agreement and reliability beyond the capabilities of actual, messy science as she is spoke.

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  101. Mr. Green:
    Yes, it seems he has in some way decided that data is conclusive but deduction is not; which is of course backwards. Empiricking provides just another premise, from which (with suitable additional premises) we may deductively draw some conclusion — even if the reasoning has been loaded up-front, and the empiricking tacked on at the end.

    Exactly. Even if we accepted brute experiences as the bedrock of explanation, this would indeed just be another way of setting up a framework for reasoning/deduction. I suspect that part of the reason that radical empiricists are unable to see this is that they construe deduction as a purely "internal" human activity. They overlook that the concept of deduction includes all the relevant practices which co-constitute it. (Note DJ's appeals to "instinct" and "intuition" in his reply above. His use of "data" is also telling. Conceptually, "data" is at least as far away from "seeing" as "observation" is.)

    perhaps that is in part because they are the sort of people who are interested in science, but not being scientsts, they get the somewhat polished-up dumbed-down layman's view of science, which carries an air of smooth agreement and reliability beyond the capabilities of actual, messy science

    I think that is definitely a very big part of it. It's easier to entertain visions of perfection from afar. I had some key moments (or years, rather) of realization when I learned that this messiness applies even to mathematics and logic. In school I thought of mathematics as a perfect edifice, where every part had a perfectly intelligible reason for its existence and its place. But the actual foundations of math are riddled with conceptual puzzles and difficulties. Which for me was fascinating to discover, it didn't diminish my interest in math or tarnish my respect for it. Quite the contrary, it made me all the more curious about where and how these problems originate.

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  102. pck,

    Me: "experience (aka, empirical data)"

    You: If experience is the empirical, then life is science and we're all 'natural scientists'"

    You're arguing with yourself again. At least you're consistent. :)

    Merriam-Webster, empirical -- originating in or based on observation or experience.

    Edward Feser: "In the generic sense, empiricism is of course the view that all knowledge derives from experience."

    Therefore when a child learns through experience, especially when he does so without the benefit of a lofty conceptual framework, he's acting as an empiricist. An empiricist is not necessarily a scientist. I think you know that.


    "Suppose you get there and find the place to be all sand, how do you conclude that nothing had ever been there? The oasis might have been real when you first saw it and then just vanished right before you got there."

    How is deduction, and deduction only, going to answer that question? You assume an oasis does not behave like this. It doesn't pick up and walk away in an hour. But this assumption is rooted in your experience. It was not deduced. It cannot be deduced.


    "The confusion here is that we don't 'trust' any concept in the same way we trust an often confirmed empirical regularity. We do not 'trust' the rules of chess."

    Do you really believe a concept about the natural world is as fickle as the rules of a game?


    "But the actual foundations of math are riddled with conceptual puzzles and difficulties. Which for me was fascinating to discover"

    You see that, yet you don't understand why I say truths derived from this messiness are not necessarily true?

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  103. Mr. Green,

    "Yes, it seems he has in some way decided that data is conclusive but deduction is not; which is of course backwards."

    'Conclusive' is the wrong word. Loosely used, 'sure' would be a better word (as in a degree of confidence). This was made in reference to my doubts about First Way. That argument begins with what is supposed to be empirical data. Yes, empirical data is as sure as, if not more sure, than deductions derived from empirical data. It would be somewhat miraculous if deduction alone could add sure-ness along the way.

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  104. laubadetriste,

    "I presume you have a powerful critique of those assumptions you have yet to share with us. Me, I've always sensed that something was wrong with that terribly dubious observation, that there is change in the world... ;-)"

    Years ago I presented my critique here ad nauseam. Needless to say, the consensus was that my critique wasn't powerful at all. I took this as a positive sign. :)

    Btw, the books you linked to look very interesting. I love reading about the history of ideas.

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  105. Jeremy Taylor,

    "For example, presumably in Don's mathematics there are no irrational numbers or incommensurable ratios, as these are known only intellectually.

    Not so. PI, for example, is based on a relationship we put to good use in the physical world. But outside that usefulness -- if there were no circles in this universe -- what can PI possibly mean? That's my basic question.

    "Don owes us a detailed explanation why certain valid inferences about such concepts are illegitimate to follow, whilst others are not."

    As I've already said, logical deductions are only as good as the assumptions used in logical arguments. Assuming logic is perfect, we're still left with the problem that no assumption is perfect. Virtually all assumptions used in a logical proof of any consequence can be traced back either to induction or simple definitional truths. So the danger is: garbage in, garbage out. How do we know some garbage doesn't taint our logical proof? We never do know. The best we can do is wait for confirmation elsewhere. That's what science does. It uses logic and reason to deduce what probably is true, then uses that as a guide to search for physical corroboration. Basically I'm saying rationalists do half the job.

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  106. Don "if-then-else" Jindra:
    Edward Feser: "In the generic sense, empiricism is of course the view that all knowledge derives from experience."

    Merriam-Webster, empirical -- originating in or based on observation or experience.

    Therefore when a child learns through experience, [...] he's acting as an empiricist.


    Someone needs to be slapped upside the head with an introductory course in logic. Yes, an empiricist is committed to the view that all knowledge comes from experience. But what you "argue" is that anyone who has experiences is an empiricist. Your quotes don't give you that. You simply reversed the arrow of implication.

    The empirical evidence for the equation Freshman errors + chest beating about alleged capacity for reason = Don Jindra is accumulating.

    Therefore when a child learns through experience, especially when he does so without the benefit of a lofty conceptual framework, he's acting as an empiricist.

    No. An empiricist is someone with the conviction stated by Feser's quote. A child has no such convictions.

    Do you really believe a concept about the natural world is as fickle as the rules of a game?

    Of course not. What are you talking about?

    You see that, yet you don't understand why I say truths derived from this messiness are not necessarily true?

    You clearly have very foggy and unexamined ideas about what truth is.

    If you had any capacity whatsoever to follow or substantially contribute to a discussion such as is taking place here about empiricism, concepts and truth, you would know that the cheap rhetorical talking points you have spread over the 4 posts above amount to exactly nothing. In David Bentley Hart's words, you have literally written yourself out of the discussion. And that's being generous. Goodbye. (Third time's the charm.)

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  107. Don Jindra: 'Conclusive' is the wrong word.

    No, it is absolutely the right word, because I was talking about conclusions. Surety is sure to remain elusive to someone who doesn't understand how to arrive at the conclusion of an argument. On the other hand, to someone who does, gaining new knowledge is the whole reason for working through arguments. No miracles required.

    Needless to say, the consensus was that my critique wasn't powerful at all.

    And yet the post you linked to has nothing to do with the point Laubadetriste made. Perhaps then it isn't surprising that there was a consensus against your point-missing objections at the time. The only surprise is that you think this is a positive sign. The possible explanations are: (a) you think you alone know better about Scholastic philosophy than everyone else, including the professionals (guess that uncertainly principle applies only to other people); (b) your aim is to be a troublemaker, i.e. a troll; (c) you suffer some peculiar psychological condition wherein not understanding seems to you to be a good thing; or (d) your own words are not indicative of what you think (which doesn’t look good for poor old empirical evidence).

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  108. pck,

    "But what you 'argue' is that anyone who has experiences is an empiricist."

    I said,

    1) "But [infants] do seem to be persistent empiricists."

    2) "Therefore when a child learns through experience, especially when he does so without the benefit of a lofty conceptual framework, he's acting as an empiricist."

    Note the words "seem to be" and "acting as."

    Nowhere do I say or imply "anyone who has experiences is an empiricist." Maybe you're using 'logic' to deduce what you prefer I say.

    "A child has no such convictions."

    Even if this was true, one doesn't need convictions in X to 'seem to be' or 'act as' X.

    I'll repeat, I won't be taking logic lessons from you. You're a classic case of how logic -- especially emotionally biased logic -- so easily leads to error.

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  109. Bad news for you, DJ:

    Sane people here see through your transparent attempt to save face. pck has actually gotten through to you, even if only a bit.

    Your lack of intellectual integrity precludes you from directly acknowledging that, so you acknowledge it indirectly via anal semantics.

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  110. Mr. Green,

    Not reasons a-d. Choice e) The replies are totally ineffective. They usually go like pck's replies to me here. Or they claim something like you did just now: An objection to cherished assumptions has "nothing to do with the point."

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  111. DJ:
    Note the words "seem to be" and "acting as."

    Well, thanks then, I guess, for admitting to having said absolutely nothing at all. Now even more empirical evidence of the complete vacuity of your claims is in.

    "Children kinda, like, ya know, seem to be, like, acting as empiricists. But I distrust all claims of certainty, so I can't be sure." -- Don Jindra, presenting the case for empiricism. (Or so we thought.)

    Maybe you're using 'logic' to deduce what you prefer I say.

    Ya think? Feser's quote said "x is an empiricist" => "x thinks all knowledge is experience-based". You, charitably read, claimed "x has experience-based knowledge" => "x is an empiricist". Now as I said, this is merely a stupid freshman error which illicitly switches the direction of the implication. But reading you literally, as you now insist we should, what you said merely amounts to vague babbling. You're not making a case for anything at all. Not even the implication-reversed version of Feser's quote can change that.

    I'll repeat, I won't be taking logic lessons from you.

    But of course not. You already have your proud own brand. You don't need to be instructed by a nobody like me on that stupid, dusty, redneckish, 2000-years-in-the-making thing called rational thought. One day you will write a paper on how logic has poisoned the western rational tradition. Then the world will finally wake up to your brilliance. Your name will be called out right after Aristotle and Frege. I would like to seize the opportunity to be the first to salute you in advance. The future belongs to anal semantics.

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  112. Glenn:

    Bad news for you, DJ:

    Sane people here see through your transparent attempt to save face.


    I think DJ is now officially the Oregon militia of logic.

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  113. @Glenn: "...via anal semantics."

    @pck: "I think DJ is now officially the Oregon militia of logic."

    My. Our malice has grown listless and insipid. By way of a tonic:

    "The 't' is silent, as in 'Harlow.'"--Margot Asquith

    "The only thing Madonna will do like a virgin is give birth in a stable."--Bette Midler

    "It is of course a commonplace that Hemingway lacks the confidence that he is a full-sized man."--Max Eastman

    "As yet, Bernard Shaw hasn't become prominent enough to have any enemies; but none of his friends like him."--Oscar Wilde

    "Truman Capote has made lying an art. A minor art."--Gore Vidal

    "Mr. Fitzgerald--I believe that is how he spells his name--seems to believe that plagiarism begins at home."--Zelda Fitzgerald

    "Harte, in a mild and colorless way, was that kind of man--that is to say, he was a man without a country; no, not a man--man is too strong a term--he was an invertebrate without a country."--Mark Twain

    "So boring you fall asleep halfway through her name."--Alan Bennett

    "A hyena that wrote poetry in tombs."--Nietzsche on Dante

    "He hardly drank tea without a stratagem."--Samuel Johnson

    "The nullifier of Civilization, who insisted on nibbling his asparagus at the wrong end."--Oliver Wendell Holmes

    "The idea that love has its sources in moral or intellectual excellence, in good nature or good sense, or has any connection with sentiment or refinement of any kind, is one of those preposterous and willful errors which ought to be extirpated for the sake of those few persons who alone are likely to suffer by it, whose romantic generosity and delicacy ought not to be sacrificed to the baseness of their nature, but who, treading secure in the flowery path marked out for them by poets and moralists, the licensed artificers of fraud and lies, are dashed in pieces down the precipice and perish without help."--Hazlitt

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  114. @Don Jindra: "Years ago I presented my critique here ad nauseam. Needless to say, the consensus was that my critique wasn't powerful at all. I took this as a positive sign. :)"

    That *was* long ago! No wonder I had forgotten it. Interesting that you took that *consensus* as a (rebarbative) positive sign, for of course there were some fine minds there, alongside the others. I think that ought to give you pause, rather in the way that (e.g.) Leibniz writing a book on it ought to give pause to those who make quick work of the problem of evil.

    So far as I can tell (I read all the comments, and disregard the tangential), you had two criticisms there of the First Way: 1) "Aquinas 'concludes': Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God. / This so-called thing that everyone 'understands' as God is not a conclusion, it's an 'understanding' -- that is, it's an assumption. It's cheating. It's quietly moving your axiom into the conclusion. Yes, it's question-begging."; and 2) "The most serious flaw in this argument (besides asserting God as the ultimate in being) is with the notion of cause. These so-called 'experts' look through their microscopes and see, Behold!, every effect has a cause. But if they would step back they might notice every effect does not have one cause. It has multiple causes. and those causes have even more multiple causes. Instead of a chain of causation we have a web of causation -- no, a regular implosion of causation. There is no way to trace any cause (or support of being) down to a First Cause (or ultimate support of being). Everything is in flux. Everything is connected. Everything is supported by an infinite web of neighbors. These so-called 'experts' on the cosmological argument are suffering from a severe case of tunnel vision. From that tunnel vision we get Atlas supporting the world on his back. / It's curious that Feser claims science has no say in this matter because this version of the argument makes what is essentially a scientific claim: Matter needs constant 'support' or it will disappear. Surely this is the stuff of physics. Surely, if this cosmological argument has any hope of being taken seriously, physicist will be able to show that matter cannot support its own existence. So Feser is wrong. This is yet another 'God of the gaps' argument."

    TheOFloinn seems to have responded nicely to your first criticism, without having responded directly to you. I would add that getting via the First Way to something like Spinoza's God is not a bad bit of work, even if his God is not (yet) Aquinas's.

    I don't see that anyone responded there to your second point. But do I read you correctly to think that the fact that things may be caused by indefinitely many contingent other things counts against the First Way? That doesn't seem like a very good counterargument, as the First Way does not turn on there being a unitary chain of causation. (Dr. Feser addressed a similar objection here.)

    (I note without further comment also that other than myself, still no one has responded to your original, historical criticism.)

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  115. Ha! Page 2 comment links worked! Thank you, Glenn and Mr. Green.

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  116. laubadetriste,

    @Glenn: "...via anal semantics."

    @pck: "I think DJ is now officially the Oregon militia of logic."

    My. Our malice has grown listless and insipid. By way of a tonic:


    Since "...via semantics" would have worked just as well, I offer no defense for the particular phrasing of that portion of my comment.

    However, I do think it worthwhile to mention that there is a cleverly subtle implication in pck's 'Oregon militia of logic' reference which may have been missed. ("Pay your grazing fees, or you'll be freely hazed.")

    But tonic accepted, and appreciated. Now, an effort to atone:

    1. Perhaps these two might qualify for honorable mention in the 'hardboiled' section of your collection (if it has such a section). They are from a movie based on Raymond Chandler's Farewell My Lovely, i.e., Murder, My Sweet, which I watched the other night:

    o My dear Mr. Marlowe... I notice in you an unpleasant tendency toward abrupt transitions. A characteristic of your generation. In this case, I must ask you to follow some sort of logical progression.

    Then, after Marlowe responds,

    o I am very disappointed in you. Your thinking is untidy, like most so-called thinking today. You depress me.

    (I had briefly hallucinated that the speaker was talking to DJ. But I hadn't had mushrooms with dinner, so I'm at a loss as to how to account for that occurrence.)

    2. Before the fictional Murder, My Sweet, and its predecessor, the fictional Farewell My Lovely, there was the non-fictional A Manual of Modern Scholastic Philosophy:

    o The first intellectual knowledge a child has is spontaneous; it is knowledge begotten entirely through the things of nature stimulating the sense-organs. As one thing gives place to another and they vary according to the change of circumstances, the ideas they engender succeed one another correspondingly, thus being rather juxtaposed than connected according to any determined order. Science or knowledge proper begins only when all the fragmentary pieces of information relating to one object are connected and systematized, and thus the merely spontaneous activity of the mind is incapable of forming a science. (p. 6.)

    o [Philosophy is] opposed to...spontaneous intellectual knowledge, which gets scarcely beyond the surface of things and does not centre in a systematic way around any one object. (p. 8.)

    3. You to DJ: I don't see that anyone responded there to your second point.

    I had thought this response, to a specific example of the general point, pretty much got at the heart of the matter.

    4. From A-T 101:

    Aristotle: "[T]he least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold." (On the Heavens, Book I, Part 5 here.)

    Aquinas: "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end[.]" (De Ente et Essentia, 1., here.)

    (But don't break the news to DJ; he likes to think he's on to something others either are unaware of or fail to appreciate -- even while being puzzled that philosophers should busy themselves with being meticulous when addressing a subject.)

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  117. @Glenn: "However, I do think it worthwhile to mention that there is a cleverly subtle implication in pck's 'Oregon militia of logic' reference which may have been missed. ('Pay your grazing fees, or you'll be freely hazed.')"

    I freely admit to being unsubtle. :)

    "I had thought this response, to a specific example of the general point, pretty much got at the heart of the matter."

    You're right that that response got to the heart of the *cycle* kinda objection. But I took that to be tangential--I don't think anyone took that to be a part of the First Way. (Did they?)

    The cycle does not seem to be an example of the "web." Perhaps I mistake your point.

    I didn't see anyone reply to his claim about the "web" of causation. And I guess I should add that I didn't see anyone reply to his claim about existential inertia. (Yes, I know Dr. Feser wrote an article about that. Damnedly difficult to track that one down.)

    "From A-T 101: / Aristotle: '[T]he least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold.' (On the Heavens, Book I, Part 5 here.) / Aquinas: 'A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end[.]' (De Ente et Essentia, 1., here.)"

    Quite.

    "[Philosophy is] opposed to...spontaneous intellectual knowledge, which gets scarcely beyond the surface of things and does not centre in a systematic way around any one object. (p. 8.)"

    A book I didn't read had the delightful title, *The 90s: When surface was depth.*

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  118. laubadetriste,

    You're right that that response got to the heart of the *cycle* kinda objection. But I took that to be tangential--I don't think anyone took that to be a part of the First Way. (Did they?)

    The cycle does not seem to be an example of the "web." Perhaps I mistake your point.


    If you mistake my point, likely it's because I was not as clear as I might have been.

    DJ had said that the notion of cause was, "The most serious flaw in [the] argument (besides asserting God as the ultimate in being)", that "every effect does not have one cause" but "multiple causes", and "instead of a chain of causation" there is "a web of causation", nay, "a regular implosion of causes."

    He then said that, "There is no way to trace any cause...down to a First Cause", that "[e]verything is in flux [and] connected[, and] supported by an infinite web of neighbors."

    He later mentioned, on the next page of comments, that he and his wife were "arguing all night" about the Final Cause of a cycle, and then said that, "Cycles are an Aristotelian nightmare."

    The 'cycle' isn't the (so-called) 'web' itself. But why wouldn't that 'cycle' be an example of one of the things, or of the kinds of things, that make up the (so-called) 'web', or of which the (so-called) 'web' is constituted?

    At any rate, I had gotten the impression that lurking behind the whole of the series of his comments was the unstated question, "If we can't even figure the Final Cause of a particular cycle, how can we find the First Cause of everything?"

    And 'the heart of the matter' I had in mind was just what the author of the response had suggested: that DJ was 'overthinking', and "trying to make problems where none exist".

    The author's suggestion was made in the context of a particular cycle, true.

    But I don't see that the applicability of his suggestion is limited to that context; indeed, it seems to apply as much to the latter part of the lurking question as it does to the former part.

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  119. laubadetriste:
    @Glenn: "...via anal semantics."
    @pck: "I think DJ is now officially the Oregon militia of logic."
    My. Our malice has grown listless and insipid. By way of a tonic:


    I admit I was tired. Although I still think that "anal semantics" cuts to the heart of DJ's word salad. I must be coming down with something, as not even the salon witticisms could cheer me up much (but thanks for the effort nonetheless).

    Perhaps a philosophical Phillip Marlowe can subtly point a bunch of Moose Malloys into the right direction so that they can break, even if unintentionally, the walls of intransigence. They'll have to believe it was their own idea though, otherwise it'll be more conceptual Krypronite for all of us.

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  120. DJ's troubles with the concept(s) of causation appear to me to be threefold:

    (1) He does not recognize that the First Cause is the "cause of causes", i.e. that it is a different type of cause than secondary causes (all of which are different types of causes as well, but they all depend on the FC and not on each other).

    (2) He models all of his applications of "cause" on the image of one or more billiard balls hitting each other, aka 17th century metaphysics (which he calls "experience", which confuses things further).

    (3) He doesn't recognize that Aristotle's "aitia" are strictly speaking not congruent with *any* modern concept of causation, since modern causes are viewed as necessitating events or making things as they are, while the master of those who know thinks of causes as giving properties and form to the world. Modern causes are passive concepts with a generative character, Aristotle's aitia are active, and in the case of formal causes, forward-looking elements of nature. See the brilliant quote from R. J. Hankinson here:

    Final causes, then, are parts of reality in the sense that the drive for form that they represent is written directly into the structure of things. They are not ghostly, as-yet unrealized objects exercising a mysterious a fronte causal power: rather they are the forward-looking elements of the incipient structure of organisms, a structure whose real existence allows Aristotle to reject the view that the Universe is controlled by the providential hand of a beneficent deity without thereby reducing it to what he at least sees as the absurd randomness of the pure mechanists.

    (1) & (2) account for DJ's misguided critique of the cosmological argument, while (2) & (3) have his knickers in a twist about formal causes and cycles. (See Glenn's post above.)

    The confusion about a "web" of causes was answered by Russell. Here's an example I used in a paper I wrote about Russell's article. Imagine a crime scene with three victims, one shot, one knifed, one poisoned. Two detectives, Branford and Marsalis, write their reports. Branford says there was one cause, murder, and three effects, one body with a bullet, another with a knife-wound and a third with foam at the mouth. Marsalis however reports three causes, shooting, stabbing and poisoning, but only one effect, death, the same for all 3 victims. So for Russell, cause and effect (in the modern sense) are not components of nature, but conceptual tools which we use differently in different explanatory schemes, none of which are necessitated by the facts (which for both detectives are exactly the same).

    Since DJ's "web of causes" is a multiple cause in Russell's sense, it is thus at best one view of things among other possible views. How he derives an argument against the First Cause from not being able to figure out the final cause of a "cycle" is a mystery already in light of (1)-(3). But even if one overlooks all those misinterpretations and confusions, he is never going to say *anything* about The Truth (tm) if he is using a modern view of causation that is amenable to Russell's analysis.

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  121. laubadetriste, quoting DJ:
    1) "Aquinas 'concludes': Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God. / This so-called thing that everyone 'understands' as God is not a conclusion, it's an 'understanding' -- that is, it's an assumption. It's cheating. It's quietly moving your axiom into the conclusion. Yes, it's question-begging."

    Another word salad. It is part of the use of the term "God" to mean "he who makes all things (including change) possible". This is the understanding Aquinas mentions -- a mere linguistic shortcut people use. Aquinas's conclusion (from a set of other arguments) is that there must be a prime mover, not that the prime mover is God. That the prime mover is God is "understood" from the fact that "prime mover" means "enabler of all things" and "God" is a shorthand for "enabler of all things". So the primer mover is God, independently of any proofs of his existence. (One could at best attack the "everyone understands" and replace it with "most or many understand".)

    It's hard to construct a disingenuous argument from a simple case of synonymous use of terms, but DJ manages anyway, by equating "understanding" (which is an ability) with "assumption". Thus his "argument" rests on calling the linguistic convention to use "God" and "enabler of all things" synonymously an "assumption". As someone else said, that takes talent.

    2) [...] "It's curious that Feser claims science has no say in this matter because this version of the argument makes what is essentially a scientific claim: Matter needs constant 'support' or it will disappear. Surely this is the stuff of physics. Surely, if this cosmological argument has any hope of being taken seriously, physicist will be able to show that matter cannot support its own existence. So Feser is wrong. This is yet another 'God of the gaps' argument."

    One can only recommend opening any physics textbook and looking for a section called "why matter exists" or "how particles manage to remain stable". No experiment has ever been thought of, much less conducted, that can answer these questions. And none ever will. Surely. There is a 100% concensus among physicists among this. The only gaps present here are the one in DJ's logic.

    This is classic Jindra. On the one hand, he claims that terms like "existence", "reality", "causation", etc. are part of the domain of physics, because he thinks this allows him to smack down his strawman version of the cosmological argument (not even that is true, but anyway). On the other hand, he says that concepts which people do not agree on, but which have no bearing on what those same people do, do not describe reality (e.g. what people's conception of reality is has no bearing on the technology being developed to go to Mars). Taking both claims together, this means that we should deny the reality of concepts such as "existence", "reality", "causation", etc., because physicists doing sciency stuff in laboratories can completely disagree on all of these without disagreeing in the slightest on how their experimental setups should be constructed and what results they deliver. Which is true. But what this shows is merely that "existence" etc. are not scientific concepts. They are meta-terms we use to talk about science, among other things.

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  122. among physicists among this => among physicists about this

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  123. DJ's troubles with the concept(s) of causation appear to me to be threefold:

    (1) He does not recognize that the First Cause is the "cause of causes", i.e. that it is a different type of cause than secondary causes (all of which are different types of causes as well, but they all depend on the FC and not on each other).

    (2) He models all of his applications of "cause" on the image of one or more billiard balls hitting each other, aka 17th century metaphysics (which he calls "experience", which confuses things further).

    (3) He doesn't recognize that Aristotle's "aitia" are strictly speaking not congruent with *any* modern concept of causation, since modern causes are viewed as necessitating events or making things as they are, while the master of those who know thinks of causes as giving properties and form to the world. Modern causes are passive concepts with a generative character, Aristotle's aitia are active, and in the case of formal causes, forward-looking elements of nature. See the brilliant quote from R. J. Hankinson here:

    Final causes, then, are parts of reality in the sense that the drive for form that they represent is written directly into the structure of things. They are not ghostly, as-yet unrealized objects exercising a mysterious a fronte causal power: rather they are the forward-looking elements of the incipient structure of organisms, a structure whose real existence allows Aristotle to reject the view that the Universe is controlled by the providential hand of a beneficent deity without thereby reducing it to what he at least sees as the absurd randomness of the pure mechanists.

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  124. (contd.)

    (1) & (2) account for DJ's misguided critique of the cosmological argument, while (2) & (3) have his knickers in a twist about formal causes and cycles. (See Glenn's post above.)

    The confusion about a "web" of causes was answered by Russell. Here's an example I used in a paper I wrote about Russell's article. Imagine a crime scene with three victims, one shot, one knifed, one poisoned. Two detectives, Branford and Marsalis, write their reports. Branford says there was one cause, murder, and three effects, one body with a bullet, another with a knife-wound and a third with foam at the mouth. Marsalis however reports three causes, shooting, stabbing and poisoning, but only one effect, death, the same for all 3 victims. So for Russell, cause and effect (in the modern sense) are not components of nature, but conceptual tools which we use differently in different explanatory schemes, none of which are necessitated by the facts (which for both detectives are exactly the same).

    Since DJ's "web of causes" is a multiple cause in Russell's sense, it is thus at best one view of things among other possible views. How he derives an argument against the First Cause from not being able to figure out the final cause of a "cycle" is a mystery already in light of (1)-(3). But even if one overlooks all those misinterpretations and confusions, he is never going to say *anything* about The Truth (tm) if he is using a modern view of causation that is amenable to Russell's analysis.

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  125. Bad typo in the post above:

    and in the case of formal causes => and in the case of final causes

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  126. Apologies for the double post about causality. The blog accepted but very shortly afterwards deleted the all-in-one version (I tried twice, with the same result), so I split it up into two parts. Now both variants are showing.

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  127. "while (2) & (3) have his knickers in a twist about formal causes and cycles" => "while (2) & (3) have his knickers in a twist about final causes and cycles"

    Got to get new glasses, rather sooner than later...

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  128. Don Jindra: An objection to cherished assumptions has "nothing to do with the point.”

    But I made no mention of objections or assumptions. The problem isn’t that you object to anything (at least not this particular problem); it’s that Laubadetriste raised a very specific point about change, and you did not address it, nor was it addressed by anything in the comment you linked to. Yet somehow you felt that this was an appropriate response to Laubadetriste, whom you cited, by name, quoting that very sentence about change. There is simply no denying that in plain, literal, obvious fact, you failed to attend to the very point being referred to.

    Frankly, you’ve haunted these parts long enough to know (well, to have empirically observed) that the regulars have no problem with people who disagree with Thomism — only with folks who don’t pay attention. If you are patting yourself on the back for thinking that we are peeved because you’ve raised such clever objections — well, then we’re back at point (a). (And incidentally, your (e) falls under (a): everyone else is “ineffective” because everyone else, including the experts, doesn’t understand what Thomism really says, or what your criticisms really amount to. Perhaps that’s how it seems in your head, but personally, I'll have to stick with what the empirical evidence reveals.)

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  129. Laubadetriste: (Dr. Feser addressed a similar objection here.) […] (I note without further comment also that other than myself, still no one has responded to your original, historical criticism.)

    Nor is that the only time Feser has addressed points in that vein, and your one-line rebuttal is surely spot-on. At the very least, any such objection would need to be much more involved and fleshed-out to be worth taking seriously.

    As for the rest, it’s classic Jindra: first he complains that we’re not using physics to answer a question about metaphysics; then he complains that using physics here is “God of the gaps”. (“There are two reasons I have no truck with your Thomism: first, the answers it gives are wrong.” “But those aren’t the answers to the questions we were actually asking!” “And that’s the other thing — you’re questions are wrong, too.” (And the portions are so small!!))

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  130. laubadetriste,

    You asked me a direct question, I answered with a link. I had no intention of pursuing that topic. I've hesitated answering the follow-up posts because I suspect someone is going to accuse me of beating a dead horse or of hijacking the thread. I really should not be doing this. But...

    Glenn,

    "At any rate, I had gotten the impression that lurking behind the whole of the series of his comments was the unstated question, 'If we can't even figure the Final Cause of a particular cycle, how can we find the First Cause of everything?'"

    It's that, but it's more. The theory that there is a first cause anywhere to be found is a badly mistaken assumption. The theory comes about because we look at things from a human perspective. The A-T philosopher mistakenly believes cause and effect has direction. His cue ball hits the eight ball. The eight ball drops into the corner pocket. He says, "See there, that's the direction of cause and effect and it all aligns perfectly with my final cause." But we lean down and listen to commentary from the eight ball and it says, "See there, I've successfully deflected the the path of the cue ball and this all aligns perfectly with my final cause." The A-T philosopher is deluding himself. His perspective is irrelevant. He ignores the philosophical implications of Newton's Third Law. If for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, which side are we supposed to follow when asked what caused what? The proper answer is both sides, not one side. If both sides are equal, they cannot both lead to a first cause. At best, they lead to two separate "first causes" and two separate Prime Movers. That brings down the whole house of cards.

    I know Thomists sometimes speak of cause in the ontological sense rather than the temporal sense. But it's wrong to say that switching to the ontological sense answers my objection. The Thomist always starts with cause in the temporal sense. Those are the examples he uses. He's forced to. There is no valid example of cause in nature in the ontological sense -- especially from a 12th century physics. So he uses cause in the temporal sense to draw analogies to the supposed ontological sense. I say, he doesn't even have the material from which to draw that analogy. I'll add that, even if he did, there is no justification for assuming there must be an ontological cause just because there is temporal cause. As far as we know, these cause are not similar. As far as we know, an ontological cause doesn't even exist.


    pck suggests,

    "He models all of his applications of 'cause' on the image of one or more billiard balls hitting each other, aka 17th century metaphysics"

    That's laughable. The A-T philosopher models all of his applications of 'cause' on the image of one or more billiard balls hitting each other. Or he might use hand-stick-stone. These are his examples, not mine. I'm merely responding to the misguided understanding of physics advanced by Aristotle, Aquinas and followers. This is a typical case of what goes on here. I'm to blame for following up on others' "classic" examples.

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  131. Mr. Green,

    [The problem is] "that Laubadetriste raised a very specific point about change, and you did not address it, nor was it addressed by anything in the comment you linked to."

    False. You cannot separate cause and effect from change. When speaking of the First Way, change and cause and effect are almost interchangeable.


    "Frankly, you’ve haunted these parts long enough to know (well, to have empirically observed) that the regulars have no problem with people who disagree with Thomism"

    I have observed the opposite. Those who disagree with Thomism are mischaracterized, misinterpreted, ridiculed, and told they are a gnu a troll or an idiot (in so many words.) There are rare exceptions to this. But those exceptions are those who, for all practical purposes, agree with or are amenable to fundamental positions promoted here.

    Aquinas: "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end"

    I've said the same thing in regard to what I'll call floating logic -- logic devoid of empirical checks. Small mistakes in first assumptions lead to big mistakes in conclusions.

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  132. "I've said the same thing in regard to what I'll call floating logic -- logic devoid of empirical checks."

    Anyone who expects Thomists to disagree must be under the misapprehension that Thomists are pure rationalists. Is there perhaps being revealed here an implicit belief that "rationalism" and "empiricism" exhaust the alternatives?

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  133. Don:
    The A-T philosopher models all of his applications of 'cause' on the image of one or more billiard balls hitting each other. Or he might use hand-stick-stone. These are his examples, not mine. I'm merely responding to the misguided understanding of physics advanced by Aristotle, Aquinas and followers.

    Neither hand-stick-stone nor the act/potency framework belong to physics in the modern sense. No A-T philosopher is in disagreement with contemporary physics or competing with it. (Nor is the Catholic Church.) Please educate yourself. (The differences between ancient and modern physics are explained beginning at 5:30.)

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  134. DJ:
    If for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, which side are we supposed to follow when asked what caused what? The proper answer is both sides, not one side.

    This is Russell's reason for recommending the removal of causality from science altogether (and replacing it by a "relational" principle). It's a good reason. If the concepts of cause and effect are interchangable -- as they are in the mutual gravitational attraction between the earth and the moon -- both concepts become meaningless. However, this is only a successful attack on causality as construed by 17th century metaphysics (aka billiard ball causality): To name but one example, all concepts of causation amenable to Russell's criticism require that causes and effects are events in time and that causes always precede their effects. But neither the First Cause nor Aristotle's aitia share those requirements. Material, formal, efficient and final causes are not events in time. And in the hand-stick-stone example, the time-order of the events involved is an incidental feature, not the heart of the argument.

    If both sides are equal, they cannot both lead to a first cause.

    It's true that they don't lead to a First Cause in the sense of one or more billiard balls hitting one another. They lead to it in a completely different way. A way which you cannot accept, because it involves conceptualization and deduction and not experiment.

    Even if we drop the event view of causation and adopt Russell's substitute, the "relational principle" (my own terminology, since Russell does not give it a name, he merely describes its features), it remains undeniable (from experience) that there is a potential [1] for change in the world. The actualization of any change requires an actualizer. It is an ontic chain of change that Aristotle and Aquinas trace back [2] to an initial [3] Actuality/Actualizer, the First Cause, not a contingent series (or web) of events in the world.

    [1] Don: "Yuck! A concept! Get it off me! Get it off!"

    [2] A deductive tracing using the conceptual framework of potency and act, not a tracing back of events in the world which successively or mutually affect each other.

    [3] "Initial" as in "the origin of any actuality/existence whatsoever", not as in "first in time". The First Cause is not an event, but that which makes events possible in the first place (which cannot be another event).

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  135. Glenn,

    "At any rate, I had gotten the impression that lurking behind the whole of the series of his comments was the unstated question, 'If we can't even figure the Final Cause of a particular cycle, how can we find the First Cause of everything?'"

    It's that,


    Oh, so I can read your mind (at least sometimes). Well, I'd be careful if I were you.

    but it's more. The theory that there is a first cause anywhere to be found is a badly mistaken assumption.

    It is a conclusion, not an assumption.

    The theory comes about because we look at things from a human perspective.

    You're a funny man.

    Perhaps next you'll suggest that, rather than look at things from a human perspective, we should look at things from an extra-human perspective.

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  136. Don "funny man" Jindra:
    I know Thomists sometimes speak of cause in the ontological sense rather than the temporal sense. But it's wrong to say that switching to the ontological sense answers my objection.

    Which is why nobody says it. You are conceptually confused. The term "ontological causes" is nonsensical for two reasons: 1) If you want to talk about a concept as it relates to being/existing, the correct term to use is "ontic", not "ontological". 2) Being/Existence/Actuality itself, aka the uncaused First Cause, of which logically there can be only one, is strictly speaking the only cause which deserves the name "ontic cause". None of the causes you talk about, namely the contingent secondary causes in the world as we ordinarily experience it, are about Being itself. Rather, they are about transformations between forms of being. (Recall the principle of conservation of energy in physics.) This is where temporal aspects come in. The First Cause, by contrast, has no temporal aspect.

    When we "switch to the ontic sense", we switch from types of secondary causes to the First Cause. It's a switch from changes in forms of being to Being itself. It's a switch from what initiates transformations to what makes (all) transformations possible.

    Lots of causes can make computer programs crash. But to make a crash possible at all, there must be a computer first. The computer is the First Cause of all computer program crashes. (It "grounds" the crashes in a sine qua non way.)

    So he uses cause in the temporal sense to draw analogies to the supposed ontological sense. I say, he doesn't even have the material from which to draw that analogy.

    Since there are no "causes in the ontological sense" which are analogous to secondary (temporal) causes, your complaint is vacuous. Contingent chains of events in time are examples of change which provide inspiration for the potency/act framework, which is in turn used to clarify the concept of "change". "Change" means "differences in what is real". Hence the use of "ontic". But there are no "chains of ontic causes". There are only causal chains of different actual/real states of affairs.

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  137. Don Jindra writes,

    As I've already said, logical deductions are only as good as the assumptions used in logical arguments. Assuming logic is perfect, we're still left with the problem that no assumption is perfect. Virtually all assumptions used in a logical proof of any consequence can be traced back either to induction or simple definitional truths. So the danger is: garbage in, garbage out. How do we know some garbage doesn't taint our logical proof? We never do know. The best we can do is wait for confirmation elsewhere. That's what science does. It uses logic and reason to deduce what probably is true, then uses that as a guide to search for physical corroboration. Basically I'm saying rationalists do half the job.

    Okay, but my point is that you seem to be suggesting (although you are very vague and unclear) is that cant trust deduction not backed up with immediate empirical proof. That is, you seem to be saying that it is okay to deduce from the induction or definitional truths you mention that:

    A -> B
    A
    Therefore, B.

    But you seem to be saying something like we cannot deduce from the same premises:

    A -> B
    B -> C
    A
    Therefore C.

    Or, rather, we cannot deduce this unless we can empirically test or observe the latter steps somehow. Firstly, given this, you don't seem to explain just why we should accept your views about deduction, especially in such a way to avoid attacking all deduction. Secondly, given the radical effects such a position would seem to have for mathematics and logic, I think you need to address these areas.

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  138. - that should be, how you show your views don't end up attacking all deduction.

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  139. I know I'm stupidly, fantastically late, but Coyne said that Aristotelian causality was disproved by modern science (specifically, I assume, the weird causal quirks of quantum mechanics). Could you look into this? That would be great.

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  140. DJ,

    But we lean down and listen to commentary from the eight ball and it says, "See there, I've successfully deflected the the path of the cue ball and this all aligns perfectly with my final cause." The A-T philosopher is deluding himself.

    Except that it is you, and not the A-T philosopher, who is claiming to be able to hear an eight ball speak.

    The A-T philosopher is deluding himself. His perspective is irrelevant. He ignores the philosophical implications of Newton's Third Law. If for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, which side are we supposed to follow when asked what caused what? The proper answer is both sides, not one side.

    Suppose I throw a snowball that hits you in the back. Which of the following three is the most likely case:

    a) your having been hit in the back by a snowball is the cause of the effect of my having thrown that snowball at your back;

    b) both my throwing a snowball at your back, and your back being hit by the snowball I threw, occur simultaneously; or,

    c) my throwing a snowball at your back takes place prior to your back being hit by the snowball I threw, and your being hit in the back by a snowball is a consequence of, i.e., is attributable to, my having thrown the snowball at it.

    - - - - -

    From Newton's Principia:

    o [I]n philosophical disquisitions, we ought to abstract from our senses, and consider things themselves, distinct from what are only sensible measures of them. (p. 79, here)

    o I do not define time, space, place and motion, as being well known to all. Only I must observe, that the vulgar conceive those quantities under no other notions but from the relation they bear to sensible objects. (p. 77, here)

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  141. That a) can could be better. Try this:

    a) my throwing a snowball at your back is the effect, and you having been hit in the back is the cause of that effect;

    (I know, I know -- quite the silly notion. (Well, it is a silly notion as far as I'm concerned; and probably is, with one or two exceptions, just as silly to everyone else here.) But you have previously claimed that causes and effects are interchangeable, so I thought I'd present you with an option in which 'cause' and 'effect' are swapped.)

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  142. XndrK:
    I know I'm stupidly, fantastically late, but Coyne said that Aristotelian causality was disproved by modern science (specifically, I assume, the weird causal quirks of quantum mechanics).


    Coyne is confused about this. Modern science cannot prove or disprove any concepts of causality, modern or ancient, as causal concepts are presupposed by scientific explanantion, not derived from it. Causal concepts guide scientific investigation, not the other way around.

    Aristotle's causes are not congruent with the modern sense in which we use the term, particularly as used in scientific explanation. In modern terminology his "aitia" are more akin to "reason" and "explanation" than "cause". See for example here and here.

    "Aitia, from Greek αἰτία was the word that Aristotle used to refer to the concept of explanation. Traditionally in academic philosophy it has been translated as cause, but this tradition uses the word 'cause' in a peculiar way that is obsolete, or highly specialized and technical in philosophy, not in its most usual current ordinary language usage. The translation of Aristotle's αἰτία that is nearest to current ordinary language is 'explanation'."

    "In the Physics, Aristotle builds on his general account of the four causes by developing explanatory principles that are specific to the study of nature. Here Aristotle insists that all four causes are involved in the explanation of natural phenomena, and that the job of “the student of nature is to bring the why-question back to them all in the way appropriate to the science of nature” (Phys. 198 a 21–23). The best way to understand this methodological recommendation is the following: the science of nature is concerned with natural bodies insofar as they are subject to change, and the job of the student of nature is to provide the explanation of their natural change.

    Modern physics is concerned with technical, quantifiable aspects of change, using quantifiable concepts such as force, energy, momentum, etc. The aitia on the other hand are not designed to provide that kind of task. They are a conceptual framework which tries to make all change accessible to human intelligence and reason. This is a conceptually wider attempt than that of modern physics, but it neither invalidates modern science nor subsumes it, though it does help to shed a critical light on some of the more questionable explanatory schemes which modern science can appear to give support to (but doesn't), such as determinism, physicalism and empiricism.

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  143. Glenn:
    But you have previously claimed that causes and effects are interchangeable

    Russell, btw, does not recommend to remove talk of causality (as understood by its usual modern axioms [1]) from everyday language. He recommends this only for science, particularly for physics, since in physics we do not find any strict principles of "whenever A, then B", where A and B are events. What we find are equations which express relations between certain quantities, such as the conservation of energy, actio=reactio (forces) and F=g*m1*m2/r^2 (gravity). These relations limit what can happen (sometimes to only a single possible outcome), but they do not fall under the notion of "B follows, whenever A occurs" for any classes of events A and B which are sufficiently large as to be of practical use.

    ---

    [1] The axioms of modern causality according to Russell:

    (A0) Causes and effects are events in time.
    (A1) Every cause precedes its effect. (Asymmetry)
    (A2) Every effect necessarily follows its cause. (Causal nexus)
    (A3) Every event is the cause of some effect. (Universality I)
    (A3') Every event is the effect of some cause. (Universality II)
    (A4) Equal causes have equal effects. (Uniformity)

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  144. @XndrK

    Addendum: In quantum mechanics, there is still causation, it's just that the later states of a system are no longer uniquely determined by the previous ones, as they are in classical mechanics.

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  145. DJ:
    Virtually all assumptions used in a logical proof of any consequence can be traced back either to induction or simple definitional truths.

    If "induction" here means mathematical induction, then this statement is false. If it means "every sheep I have ever seen was white, so I conclude that all sheep are white", then your idea of what constitutes a "logical proof" is defective in the worst possible way.

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  146. pck,

    Russell, btw, does not recommend to remove talk of causality (as understood by its usual modern axioms [1]) from everyday language. He recommends this only for science, particularly for physics,

    I have no objection to that.

    These relations limit what can happen (sometimes to only a single possible outcome), but they do not fall under the notion of "B follows, whenever A occurs" for any classes of events A and B which are sufficiently large as to be of practical use.

    I also have no objection to this.

    What I might have an objection to is the claim that any notion under which those relations do not fall is, for that reason, meaningless or irrelevant -- not just in physics or to physics (which well may be fine), but outside of physics or to anything else (which definitely is not fine).

    DJ seems to be on track towards making such a claim (i.e., to giving actual utterance to such a claim (rather than merely continuing to do so ostensibly)) -- or, worse yet, towards making the claim that there isn't anything outside of physics.

    He brought up Newton's Third Law, so I came up with a gedankenspiel in which I hit him in the back with a snowball.

    If he has any sense (of a certain kind which is both 'normal' and 'rational'), he'll acknowledge that, in that gedankenspiel, he got hit in the back with the snowball, deny that his being hit in the back by the snowball was an equal and opposite reaction to my action of throwing the snowball, and think twice before going out on a flimsy limb and denying that there is indeed something inescapably unidirectional about my throwing a snowball at his back and his getting hit in the back with it.

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  147. DJ:
    So the danger is: garbage in, garbage out. How do we know some garbage doesn't taint our logical proof?

    Because no actual logical proof depends on anything that could possibly be garbage. Your question is equivalent to "How do I know that the rules of chess will never produce an illegal position on the board?" There can be illegal positions if and only if the rules are broken. The rules themselves, applied correctly, cannot produce illegal positions because they define what counts as legal and illegal in the first place. The exact same thing is true about logic. Therefore, the following statements cannot possibly be wrong:

    1+1=2
    The king in chess moves only one square at a time.
    No object is red and green all over.
    No object can be in two places at once.
    There are no round squares.
    There is a world. [*]

    By contrast, a proof of the form A => B, where B is logically deduced from A, but the truth of A is not established with certainty, does not constitute a "logical proof". The proof uses deduction, but B, as you note correctly ("garbage in, garbage out"), cannot be established by deduction only. But only a fully deductive proof is called "logical". So your complaint about the supposedly insufficient powers of logic rests on a misunderstanding about what logic is.

    ---

    [*] This one is a bit trickier and also different from the others. It pays to think about what the difference is.

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  148. Glenn:
    What I might have an objection to is the claim that any notion under which those relations do not fall is, for that reason, meaningless or irrelevant -- not just in physics or to physics (which well may be fine), but outside of physics or to anything else (which definitely is not fine).

    [...] think twice before going out on a flimsy limb and denying that there is indeed something inescapably unidirectional about my throwing a snowball at his back and his getting hit in the back with it


    Yes, I agree completely. Causal notions are not of a uniform nature and definitely not limited to physics. Many years ago I researched a lot of literature about causation (this was actually how I found my way into philosophy). Eventually I read a bunch of papers by Nancy Cartwright and others in her circle. Cartwright made a pretty convincing argument that if you take the intersection of all the concepts of causality which are floating around, that is, if you identify what is common to all of them, what you end up with is of so little substance that it is no longer recognizable as anything you would call "causation". This remains true even if you start with only those causal concepts used in the natural sciences. (Great example of Wittgenstein's concept of family resemblance.)

    With regard to concepts of causation outside of the sciences, I think that if we didn't have causal notions such as in your snowball example first, we probably wouldn't later come up with (different) causal notions (or their rejection) in science either. Empirically gathered information would just seem like a huge mess to us.

    All of these Gedankenspiele probably won't sit well with Don "I only believe what I have seen with my own eyes" Jindra.

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  149. pck,

    Me: "I know Thomists sometimes speak of cause in the ontological sense rather than the temporal sense. But it's wrong to say that switching to the ontological sense answers my objection."

    pck: "You are conceptually confused. The term 'ontological causes'" is nonsensical for two reasons..."

    Yet in a blog post entitled, "Edwards on infinite causal series," our gracious host wrote this curious sentence: "Edwards does realize that Aquinas is not arguing that the universe must have had a beginning -- that the first cause he is arguing for is 'first' not in a temporal sense, but in an ontological sense, a sustaining cause of the world here and now and at any moment at which the world exists at all."

    So maybe you should clear up that confusion while you're at it.

    I have no problem using 'ontic' if that's your wish.

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  150. pck,

    "Don: 'Yuck! A concept! Get it off me! Get it off!'"

    Of course nowhere did I say this or imply it. As usual, it's not what I believe.


    "The actualization of any change requires an actualizer. It is an ontic chain of change that Aristotle and Aquinas trace back [2] to an initial [3] Actuality/Actualizer,"

    This "ontic chain of change" is a fiction. We have absolutely no evidence for it. It's falsely "deduced" from totally separate concepts -- like temporal change, or cause and effect or imagined per se causal chains.


    the uncaused First Cause, of which logically there can be only one, is strictly speaking the only cause which deserves the name 'ontic cause'."

    I'll note that this is the sort of failure I'm taking about. You claim there can be only one *logical* "uncaused First Cause." But logic in this case is mere rhetoric. It doesn't matter what you think is logical about it. It matters only if nature itself gives us reason to believe an uncaused cause is possible in the first place, which it doesn't.

    Nevertheless, if that First Cause is the one and only 'ontic cause' can we speak of a chain? More importantly, it's futile to look for physical evidence for that ontic link if it's supposed to originate in a supernatural entity. The concept depends on a lofty 'conceptual framework' which, I'm told, is human invention. Yes, "It's a switch from changes in forms of being to Being itself." So to compare the two -- to strain for real world analogies -- is to compare apples and oranges. There is no argument from analogy. So when you say,

    "It's true that [temporal examples] don't lead to a First Cause in the sense of one or more billiard balls hitting one another. They lead to it in a completely different way."

    -- I have to say, those temporal examples don't lead to First Cause in a completely different way. They don't lead to it in *any* way. The concepts cannot be compared. The one cannot be used in an argument to support the other -- even if the first part of the analogy worked.

    There is no argument for First Cause from analogy, induction or deduction. There is simply human bias.

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  151. pck,

    I'm going to retreat a little from my assertion above. What if change and being are connected? But what if, instead of our changing universe being dependent on pure being (a supposed Prime Mover or Subsistent Being Itself), it's rather that being depends on change? IOW, there can be no being without change. Is there any electron, any Higgs boson particle or any point in the universe that is not changing? Suppose we stumbled into this place of no change, how would we know? To speak of a being which does not change is to speak of pure nothingness. The physical evidence seems to support this position at least as well as it supports the opposite.

    Up above TheOFloinn mentioned Laplace and Lagrange/Poisson. "From the same experiment with the same results, one found the hypothesis proven while the other found it falsified" -- this was due to different concepts of pressure. Yet we are supposed to trust Thomist concepts? Is there really no other conceptual framework that fits the evidence as well if not better? I'm not that credulous, especially when those Thomist concepts have such dubious empirical support.

    From where I sit, Thomists want it both ways. On the one hand, they want the empirical data to be meaningless or vague on its own. They tell us how we interpret the data is human invention, or intention -- like Laplace v. Lagrange or Ptolemy v. Copernicus or Ross's indeterminacy. Yet when they have a pet conceptual framework the physical data must be interpreted their way.


    "Contingent chains of events in time are examples of change which provide inspiration for the potency/act framework, which is in turn used to clarify the concept of 'change'. 'Change' means 'differences in what is real'.

    (How many variations of real are there?)

    I'll refer again to the words of our gracious host: "What is key is the distinction between instrumental and principal causality (or second and first causality), a distinction which the language of per accidens versus per se ... better conveys." (Again from "Edwards on infinite causal series") There follows much elaboration on that. But basically the temporal examples are designed to sell the concept of per se causal series. But if the examples, at best, sell not one but two per se causal series, the arguments that follow don't hold up so well.

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  152. Glenn,

    "Suppose I throw a snowball that hits you in the back. Which of the following three is the most likely case:"..a/b/c

    You're not getting at my meaning. My back was put there by me, not you. There were a series of events that lead to that moment. And when the snowball breaks apart and falls to the ground, that event was caused as much by me and my back as by you and your arm. Every event has at least two points of view.


    "Perhaps next you'll suggest that, rather than look at things from a human perspective, we should look at things from an extra-human perspective."

    I do think we ought to try. That's what being objective is about.

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  153. Unfortunately, Don isn't that different from Santi, except thankfully a bit more concise. Your seem to suffer from the same chronic vagueness and inability to stick to a chain of argument without falling into the mire of ambiguity, red herring, and fallacy. And like Santi it is hard to see whether this is deliberate or simply due to your own confusion. You must be confused if you think most of your responses to pck are sensible.

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  154. DJ:
    Yet in a blog post entitled, "Edwards on infinite causal series," our gracious host wrote this curious sentence: "Edwards does realize that Aquinas is not arguing that the universe must have had a beginning -- that the first cause he is arguing for is 'first' not in a temporal sense, but in an ontological sense, [...]

    Your reply does not address the issue my comment was about. That the First Cause is all about the notion of being is precisely what I said. Thus it is correct to say that we talk about the FC in an ontological sense. Ed Feser argues the exact same point I argued. To refute me with a Feser post, you would have to find one in which he draws an analogy between the First Cause and contingent causes, just as you, erroneously, do.

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  155. DJ:
    This "ontic chain of change" is a fiction. We have absolutely no evidence for it.

    The argument depends on

    1) our experience that there is change in the world,
    2) a conceptual analysis of what "change" means, and
    3) the fact that no existing (actual) state of reality is itself a reason or justification of its existence/actuality.

    If you think that there is no evidence for change, then I cannot help you. The rest is logic and deduction, which cannot be attacked by empirical evidence, only by conceptual analysis. To attack the argument, you need to come up with a reason why Aristotle's ways of talking about change should be dismissed and/or why we do not need a reason for the world to exist.

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  156. DJ:
    You claim there can be only one *logical* "uncaused First Cause.

    No. "Logical" is not an attribute of the FC. What I said was that the uniqueness of the FC follows logically, just as it follows logically that there can only be one largest number in a finite set of natural numbers. Both proofs are very easy to understand.

    It matters only if nature itself gives us reason to believe an uncaused cause is possible in the first place

    No. You're still treating the FC as if it was a contingent cause in nature. That's not the case. The FC is of an entirely different type than the kind of cause you talk about.

    Nevertheless, if that First Cause is the one and only 'ontic cause' can we speak of a chain?

    The FC is not a part (or first element) of any chain of changes, it is the reason why chains of change can exist in the first place. Tracing back chains of change, we note that each change is actualized by its predecessor. But we also notice that we can never arrive at the root of actuality in this way. The FC is not the first actualizer in a chain (in that case one could rightfully ask who or what actualized the FC), it is actuality itself. Alternatively I could say that the FC is an actualizer of a different type ("actualizer" has now a double meaning, just like "cause"), which is not the first element of the chain, but that which gives actuality to the chain as a whole.

    So what we arrive at when we trace back chains of change is the notion of a First Cause, where "cause" has a different meaning compared to the temporal causes of the chain of changes. Why call the FC a cause at all then? Because the FC is the ultimate sine qua non. Tracing back chains of changes inspires us to create a concept. It is not like following a set of footprints in the sand and eventually seeing the person how made the prints. Rather, in this analogy, we reason from the existence of prints in the sand to the existence of a wanderer.

    I have to say, those temporal examples don't lead to First Cause in a completely different way. They don't lead to it in *any* way. The concepts cannot be compared.

    It is precisely because the concepts are different that temporal examples lead to the FC in a different way. As explained above, the way is by argument, not by further experiences beyond the temporal changes.

    What if change and being are connected?

    If you could show that, you'd have a successful critique of the First Way. Unfortunately, the world does not wear the reason for its existence on its sleeve.

    Change and being are of course connected by way of secondary causation. What you would have to show is that change and Being itself are connected. I don't think the prospects for that are good, given how we deploy these concepts. You'd probably wind up redefining one or both of them.

    Is there really no other conceptual framework that fits the evidence as well if not better?

    No one is stopping you from suggesting alternatives. But conceptual frameworks never agree or disagree with evidence. They set the standards by which we judge what counts as evidence. You're still putting the cart before the horse on that one.

    [...] when they have a pet conceptual framework the physical data must be interpreted their way.

    I've never seen a Thomist interpret physical data in "his way". Can you give an example?

    How many variations of real are there?

    Many. As many as there are concepts which define what counts as "true" and "false". A "real win" in chess is ontologcially quite different from a "real planet" in the solar system, and so on.

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  157. DJ: What if change and being are connected?

    pck: If you could show that, you'd have a successful critique of the First Way.



    Heh. Give Don some credit. In his wild flailing he actually hit upon something that might, possibly, be worked into an interesting criticism of the First Way. That's more than you can say for most trolls.

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  158. pck:
    Rather, in this analogy, we reason from the existence of prints in the sand to the existence of a wanderer.

    My analogy probably does more damage than it helps to clarify things, because its use of "existence" is conceptually the same for the footprints and the wanderer, while the same is not true for chains of change and the First Cause. The recognition of which is exactly the hurdle Don has yet to negotiate.

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  159. DJ:
    And when the snowball breaks apart and falls to the ground, that event was caused as much by me and my back as by you and your arm. Every event has at least two points of view.

    a) This still doesn't make you getting hit by the snowball the cause of Glenn's throwing it, no matter how many points of view there are. Nobody talks like that, not even you.

    b) If some event E wouldn't have happened if some fact or state of affairs S had not obtained, S is not automatically promoted to the status of being a cause of E. I can't score in a basketball match if there is no basketball. This doesn't make basketballs the causes of scoring in basketball matches (not even partial causes).

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  160. Don "Non Sequitur" Jindra,

    You're not getting at my meaning. My back was put there by me, not you. There were a series of events that lead to that moment. And when the snowball breaks apart and falls to the ground, that event was caused as much by me and my back as by you and your arm.

    (I see pck has already responded to the second half of this. But I see no harm in reiterating the point.)

    I said two things regarding the snowball: (1) I threw it at your back; and, (2) it hit you in the back.

    I then asked which was more likely to be the case:

    a) whether (1) is an effect whose cause is (2);

    b) whether (1) and (2) occurred simultaneously; and,

    c) whether (1) preceded (2), and (2) is a consequence of or attributable to (1).

    What happened to the snowball upon impact, i.e., whether the snowball completely broke up, partially broke up or remained fully intact, is irrelevant to the question.

    Every event has at least two points of view.

    And some events also have multiple bank accounts, no doubt.

    But I take it you mean to say that multiple views of an event are possible for any given event.

    If that is what you mean to say, and you believe it to be true, then I will add that it is not unlikely that at least one metaphysical or philosophical view can be found amongst those multiple views.

    "Perhaps next you'll suggest that, rather than look at things from a human perspective, we should look at things from an extra-human perspective."

    I do think we ought to try. That's what being objective is about.


    A human perspective is a perspective had or held by a human. A perspective had or held by a human might be subjective, or it might be objective. But whether a perspective had or held by a human is subjective or objective, it is still a human perspective. My response was to your dismissal of something on the mere grounds that that something was due to humans looking at things from a human perspective.

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  161. What if change and being are connected? But what if, instead of our changing universe being dependent on pure being (a supposed Prime Mover or Subsistent Being Itself), it's rather that being depends on change?

    Please turn off all cell phones, and stop the cross talk -- DJ is hard at work rethinking his earlier dismissal of the potency/act distinction.

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  162. Don, if you're working on a proof that Being comes from change, please stop. Because the corollary is that black is white, and you'll get yourself killed on the next zebra crossing.

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  163. Don "Non Sequitur" Jindra is the perfect epithet for Don. Like Santi, there is no substance to his claims. He jumps around wildly, as Gottfried put it. He trades on ambiguity and non sequitur. He just aims to kick up as much dust as possible that he can never really be pinned down.

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  164. pck,

    "1) our experience that there is change in the world,"

    We have absolutely no experience of ontic change in the world. You cannot logically deduce its necessity. The FC follows not logically, but emotionally.

    "You're still treating the FC as if it was a contingent cause in nature. That's not the case. The FC is of an entirely different type than the kind of cause you talk about."

    Of course I'm treating FC as contingent. That first ontic cause does not exist. It's a figment of your imagination. As a "concept" -- or rather fiction -- it's contingent on your emotional needs. You cannot show one example of it occurring in nature. You cannot derive its logical necessity any more than you derive the necessity of temporal cause. We know there is temporal cause through experience. That's all. Logical deduction is of no help on this issue. FC is certainly not the ultimate sine qua non. As I said, it's only absolutely needed to plug an emotional hole. If you drag pure, innocent logic into this very nasty neighborhood I fear you'll end up making a whore out of her.


    "This still doesn't make you getting hit by the snowball the cause of Glenn's throwing it, no matter how many points of view there are."

    I agree. But that's half of the event. The snowball wouldn't hit me at all if I didn't put myself in the position to be hit. Glenn wasn't the cause of that. I was. That's the other half of the event that you refuse to acknowledge.


    "I can't score in a basketball match if there is no basketball. This doesn't make basketballs the causes of scoring in basketball matches (not even partial causes).

    Yes it absolutely does. That basketball is as much a cause in that event as you are, as is the hoop, the floor, the basketball manufacturer, etc. You're confusing your intent to score with the physics of what actually happens.


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  165. Don Jindra: You cannot separate cause and effect from change.

    Sure I can, because they're not the same thing. But it doesn't matter, because that's not the point either. Even if you were completely right about that, it still doesn't address the particular, specific point that was raised. You could have simply said, "So what, I didn't want to respond to that particular point, who cares if I pasted in a bit of quotation that wasn't precisely on my topic!" But you didn't. You dug in your heels and are insisting all the more that you tackled a point when a simple reading of plain English shows that you didn't. Again, this is regardless of who's right and who's wrong. If you had addressed it, and I said you were wrong, I could understand your being defensive; but we'll never get that far if we can't establish what was said in the first place. And this is where I just don't understand your behaviour: when faced with a unanimous charge that you don't understand a point, a reasonable response might be to ask oneself, "I may think these Thomistic types are wrong about philosophy, but they are awfully certain that I have not correctly understood their position, so shouldn't I consider that they might mean something else?" It would be perverse for someone to think not only that the folks he disagrees with are wrong about metaphysics, but that they are wrong even about what their own position is. It's exhibit (a) redux.

    I have observed the opposite. Those who disagree with Thomism are mischaracterized, misinterpreted, ridiculed, and told they are a gnu a troll or an idiot (in so many words.)

    Well, that that is your observation doesn't surprise me, since despite our words crossing paths, they always seem to cross purposes, as though you were living in some sort of parallel dimension, and seeing a completely different world from the one the rest of us live in. And so again, people like you are mischaracterised and misinterpreted, but when it's the side you disagree with, well, they only "ridicule".

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  166. PCK: Aristotle's causes are not congruent with the modern sense in which we use the term, particularly as used in scientific explanation. In modern terminology his "aitia" are more akin to "reason" and "explanation" than "cause".

    And even everyday language is not that far removed from the traditional concepts: if you can answer something with "because", then you're talking about causes.

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  167. DJ:
    We have absolutely no experience of ontic change in the world.

    I don't know what you mean by "ontic change" or "ontic causes". As I have explained before, all ordinary change is transformation of already existing things or states of affairs. "Ontic" in that context is either superfluous or meaningless. You don't need a First Cause to talk about how a book is made or how the leaves turn yellow in autumn.

    Of course I'm treating FC as contingent. [...] You cannot show one example of it occurring in nature.

    Of course not. If one could show an example in nature, it couldn't possibly be the First Cause, since that would contradict the concept. You're still completely logically confused about this. It's like the Blind Watchmaker argument. Even if you believe that nature is a blind watchmaker, the question how the blind watchmaker came into existence still remains. The notion of a First Cause is an attempt to approach that question.

    An apple can be red or green, sweet or sour. But it cannot in the same sense have existence or non-existence. To treat existence as a property of things is a conceptual error. There are two notions of "being" involved here, 1) contingent being, which can be traced back and explained by previous states of contingent being (this is what science does), and 2) Being itself, which cannot. We can point out the features of an apple which give it its colour, but we cannot point to any features which explain its Being, its existence. We can explain how it came to be this way, but not, ultimately, how it came to be at all. Trace the apple's matter and energy back to the Big Bang if you want, but the answer will still elude you. No examination of nature can explain why there is any nature in the first place. As opposed to the contingent details of what goes on in nature. To treat Being analogously to being is a category error which results in confusion. A confusion which you seem to be not just unable but also unwilling to rid yourself of.

    Tracing back chains of change does not lead to the source of existence. It only leads to different states of it. The FC is an attempt to answer the question why there is anything at all. No event or fact obtaining in nature can give you that. All talk of events E and facts F presuppose the existence either of those same E and F or of previous events/facts which have the potential to transform into E and F.

    [...] it's contingent on your emotional needs [...] If you drag pure, innocent logic into this very nasty neighborhood I fear you'll end up making a whore out of her.

    If there is anybody getting emotional about anything at this point, it's pretty clear who.

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  168. Me: This doesn't make basketballs the causes of scoring in basketball matches (not even partial causes).

    DJ: Yes it absolutely does.


    Well, if that is your concept of causation, a blunt, fully counterfactual account (dismissed as useless in the literature a long time ago, btw.), then there is nothing further to discuss. You're free to call a chair a table of course, but the misunderstandings resulting from it only say something about your confusion, not about how things are in any commonly accepted conceptual framework [1] or how they can be intelligibly described. And that, after all, is what causal concepts are about. Talking to someone who insists that basketballs cause scoring is just as futile as changing the rules for the king in chess to moving two squares at a time and insisting that others have previously been playing the game "wrong". Like that "chess" player, by adopting this new use for "cause", you have separated yourself from the community of language users. Hence your constant failure to communicate with others. It's a very successful way of living in a permanent state of frustration.

    [1] Nobody calls basketballs the cause of scoring. Nobody causally attributes not scoring to the ball either. You don't need to be a philosopher to understand that.

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  169. Mr. Green:
    PCK: Aristotle's [...] "aitia" are more akin to "reason" and "explanation" than "cause".

    And even everyday language is not that far removed from the traditional concepts: if you can answer something with "because", then you're talking about causes.


    Exactly. And reasons too of course. ("Why did you go see that movie?" does not ask for causes in the modern sense. Although some determinists any physicalists will object to that.) Causes and reasons in the ancient sense quite obviously are still useful to us even after more than two millenia. The talk I linked to earlier, here it is again, makes the exact same point (starting at 7:10, "because" at 7:35). "Because" = "be" + "cause". Not a coincidence.

    I wonder if Don extends his blunt counterfactual notion of causality to responsibility as well.

    Judge: I sentence J. Random Hacker to a fine of $1000 for hitting Don Jindra over the head with a baseball bat after disagreeing with him over the virtues of object oriented programming languages.

    Don: Wait, my head must take half the blame, so make that $500.

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  170. DJ:
    That basketball is as much a cause in that event as you are, as is the hoop, the floor, the basketball manufacturer, etc.

    No. You're confusing conditions N which are necessary for X to be possbile with X happening necessarily due to conditions C. Even in the latter case we call the C "causes" only selectively, depending on the details of the purposes of our explanatory schemes.

    1) Take as an example the event H of a house burning down due to a chain of events set off by faulty electrical wiring. A curtain ignites after getting hit by a spark and the disaster unfolds from there. The curtain is not called a cause of H, even if it is clear that H hadn't happened if the curtain had not been hit by the spark. But the flammable nature of the curtain is called a (partial) cause of H if it catches fire due to the heat generated by sunlight. Our causal explanations often distinguish between man-made and natural causes. In the case of the fire being due to faulty wiring, the curtain's flammability is called an enabling circumstance, not a cause. And if the wiring had been deliberately installed in order to cause a fire and to collect the insurance money, the people behind that plan would be called causally responsible for their actions.

    We can see that a causal notion so wide as to include all of the N necessary for H to be possible (see above) would be useless. To avoid more instances of H occuring because of the same faulty wiring or scheming criminals, it is important that our causal notions can select, from the many N available, those conditions the alterations of which promise the best chances of preventing further disasters. Using brute, counterfactual Don-causation, the hundreds or thousands of other necessities without which H would not have happened would have us more or less blindly changing an immense number of parameters in a combinatorially near-endless trial-and-error process.

    2) Back to basketball. The N usually are a superset of the C, with many of the N not being causes under any scheme of explanation. Scoring in basketball is not a necessity occuring because a basketball and all the other material objects involved in setting up a match have been manufactured. Anybody who talks like that removes himself from any chance to meaningfully communicate with most of the rest of the world's population.

    Also, even if you take all the physical components present at the moment of scoring together, you still wouldn't get scoring. You'd at best get a ball passing through a hoop. The rules of bball are just as much a contributor to scoring as the physical stuff is.

    You're confusing your intent to score with the physics of what actually happens.

    The confusion is all yours. My intent to score is obviously not the cause of my scoring and nothing I said implies that. There is no necessary connection between scoring and intending to score. If there was, everyone who wanted to score would actually score, every time. The cause of my scoring is that I sent the ball on the right trajectory. If I do that (and the defense fails to intercept), scoring will occur because of the relevant physical necessities (and because of the rules of basketball being what they are -- again, we note that scoring is not exclusively due to physical causes). My intent, on the other hand, is part of the reason that I scored, not part of the cause(s) (physical or not).

    The rules of bball are part of the reasons why scoring is possible. But they do not cause scoring. So we can draw the wider conclusion that what happens in the world, what constitutes reality, is not merely due to physical causes. In the game of reality, reasons play an equally important role and can actually, as this example shows, supercede or subsume causes.

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  171. Correction:

    "The curtain is not called a cause of H, even if it is clear that H hadn't happened if the curtain had not been hit by the spark."

    should be read as

    "The flammable nature of the curtain is not called a cause of H, even if it is clear that H wouldn't have happened if the curtain had not been hit by the spark."

    Also,

    "But the flammable nature of the curtain is called a (partial) cause of H if it catches fire due to the heat generated by sunlight."

    should be

    "But the flammable nature of the curtain may be called a (partial) cause/reason of H if it catches fire due to the heat generated by sunlight."

    The change from "is" to "may be" is due to the same reason explained afterwards, namely that attributions of "cause" depend on which aspects of a group of events we want to draw attention to. In the case of the curtain, we would attribute reasons and causes differently if we thought the manufacturer of the curtain had acted irresponsibly by using a highly inflammable fabric, compared to a case in which someone had left a window open despite being aware of a nearby forest fire.

    On a purely physical level, both cases may involve the exact same chain of physical events, from spark to burning curtain to the house being destroyed. Nevertheless we do not apply the same causal notions in explaining what happened, especially not when human action is involved.

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  172. You cannot show one example of it occurring in nature. You cannot derive its logical necessity any more than you derive the necessity of temporal cause. We know there is temporal cause through experience. That's all. Logical deduction is of no help on this issue. FC is certainly not the ultimate sine qua non.

    Can someone help me with this? So far as I can see, this amounts to nothing more than saying "First causes cannot be derived by logical deduction because I'm not going to allow (or listen to?) logical deduction." Well, sure. I can claim all home runs are inside the park if I discount, a priori, all hits that go over the fence. (I skipped all the ad hominem crap about our emotions.)

    @pck: I do have to question your claim that the basketball is in no way a cause of scoring. Not an efficent cause, sure. But since the definition of scoring in b-ball involves the ball going through the hoop, surely it has some explanatory value? (And wouldn't the ball and hoop, together, be like the material cause of the scoring - what we actually call "a basket"? With som eother conditions, of course, e.g., the ref didn't throw it.)

    Forgive me for working on so basic a level.

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  173. One more clarification:

    All uses of "cause" as related to physical events in the previous two posts are uses in the modern sense (i.e. "billiard ball causation", where one event necessitates another).

    Aristotle would of course have no problem in applying his aitia to the curtain. Many of the technical complications of modern causal notions do not arise within Aristotle's framework.

    Those unaware (of the good parts) of history are doomed not to repeat it.

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  174. George LeSauvage:
    @pck: I do have to question your claim that the basketball is in no way a cause of scoring. Not an efficent cause, sure. But since the definition of scoring in b-ball involves the ball going through the hoop, surely it has some explanatory value?

    Definitely. See my previous post. (You posted while I was writing that.)

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  175. "Reason" and "explanation" are exactly the words used, ages ago, by a professor in trying to get across the differences between "aitia" and our use of "cause". This was actually in a course of Plato, not Ari. But of course, there is a good reason we still use "cause", its Latin source is "causa" and that is the word used for centuries for what the Greeks called "aitia". It was historically late that our current usage became dominant.

    But it is a stumbling block; it's hard sometimes to keep the distinction in mind, and people are all too often reading Newton's causation into Aquinas or Aristotle or Plato. And as we see, even insisting on it being read into them.

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  176. pck:
    But the flammable nature of the curtain is called a (partial) cause of H if it catches fire due to the heat generated by sunlight.

    This would be a cause much closer to Aristotle than to the modern event-based sense. So not all of my uses of "cause" were modern after all, as I claimed above in "One more clarification". It's really hard to be precise about causation...

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  177. George LeSauvage:
    But it is a stumbling block; it's hard sometimes to keep the distinction in mind, and people are all too often reading Newton's causation into Aquinas or Aristotle or Plato. And as we see, even insisting on it being read into them.

    Excellent point. It takes quite a bit of work to gain an overview of the array of causal notions that have been created through the ages.

    Scientistic thinkers tend to have a persistent inclination of wanting to get to the "one true nature" of causation. Which is understandable, given that they entertain the dogma that a modern scientific approach with a focus on unification is the best or even only source of reliable knowledge. That approach has worked extremely well in some areas, but has also, as you point out, created lots of confusion in others.

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  178. pck,

    Those unaware (of the good parts) of history are doomed not to repeat it.

    Indeed, indeed.

    (In case it was missed, or has been forgotten: This is philosophy?)

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  179. Mr. Green,

    "You dug in your heels and are insisting all the more that you tackled a point when a simple reading of plain English shows that you didn't."

    Plain reading of English shows that I did address the point. You're correct, we have a much different view of things.

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  180. George LeSauvage,

    "So far as I can see, this amounts to nothing more than saying "First causes cannot be derived by logical deduction because I'm not going to allow (or listen to?) logical deduction." Well, sure. I can claim all home runs are inside the park if I discount, a priori, all hits that go over the fence. (I skipped all the ad hominem crap about our emotions.)"

    I think you're connecting two sentences in a way I did not intend. First sentence: "You cannot show one example of [ontic cause] occurring in nature." I suppose I should have added "In addition to that," (second sentence) "You cannot derive its logical necessity any more than you derive the necessity of temporal cause.' Or perhaps a paragraph break between those sentences would have helped. I'm asking a simple question. How does one logically derive any cause? We certainly did not find temporal cause by logical deduction. We found it through observing nature, even from childhood. So what makes anyone believe ontic cause can be logically derived? Or worse, what makes anyone believe ontic cause is a logical necessity? I'm not discounting, a priori, that a homerun cannot be outside the park. I'm saying no homerun (cause) so far has been derived through logic, so why would we think logic could derive the next one?

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  181. pck,

    "I don't know what you mean by 'ontic change' or 'ontic causes'.

    Then perhaps you should stop writing sentences like this sentence of yours above: "It is an ontic chain of change that Aristotle and Aquinas trace back." Sometimes I think I'm arguing with Sybil.


    "Even if you believe that nature is a blind watchmaker, the question how the blind watchmaker came into existence still remains. The notion of a First Cause is an attempt to approach that question."

    I know it's a taboo subject here, but the notion of first cause is not solved by letting a Prime Cleaner sweep it under the rug, as if that guy came from nowhere or supposedly just has to exist else the place goes to pot. It's no less true to say nature has to exist.


    "No examination of nature can explain why there is any nature in the first place."

    I've noticed you do like to tell me things I already know. There may be an emotional need for some to seek an answer to that question, but I'm not convinced it's a legitimate question. And when you get an answer, there's no rule that says it's the ultimate answer. Why God? can also be asked, even though some folks don't like us asking. I deny FC "is an attempt to answer the question why there is anything at all." If one doesn't keep asking, they aren't serious.

    "To treat Being analogously to being is a category error which results in confusion. A confusion which you seem to be not just unable but also unwilling to rid yourself of."

    That confusion is not mine. As I've mentioned above, Thomists keep applying "previous states of contingent being" in reasoning in issues of Being -- a category error.


    "Tracing back chains of change does not lead to the source of existence. It only leads to different states of it."

    Exactly what I've been saying.

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  182. pck,

    "The flammable nature of the curtain is not called a cause of H, even if it is clear that H wouldn't have happened if the curtain had not been hit by the spark."

    I'm going quibble with that.The flammable nature of the curtain *is* called a cause of H. It's common to speak of flammable materials being the cause of fires. It's important enough to influence building codes and clothing for example.


    "The change from 'is' to 'may be' is due to the same reason explained afterwards, namely that attributions of 'cause' depend on which aspects of a group of events we want to draw attention to."

    Exactly! Hallelujah, there's hope!

    I've been trying to draw attention to this issue for years. But don't pull this punch. Follow through. All examples of cause, all the subtle distinctions (efficient, material, final, per se, per accidens, etc.) are distinctions invented by humans. Our attention is drawn to certain "aspects of a group of events." We have a subjective way of looking at things. When we watch a pool player shoot pool, we look at it from our human POV. Our attention is naturally drawn to the game, the intention of the players. It is not naturally drawn to the game from the eight ball's POV. The habit of the A-T philosopher is to focus on that subjective frame of reference and convince the rest of us that he sees being in the most objective sense. IMO, he's merely trying to systematize, even deify his subjectivity. Yes, "we do not apply the same causal notions in explaining what happened, especially not when human action is involved." But if we want to get to the truth, we have to do our best to look at these issues outside our natural inclinations. Yes, we habitually "call the C 'causes' only selectively, depending on the details of the purposes of our explanatory schemes." But our selectivity and our purposes might very well give us a selective interpretation of events according to our will. This is exactly how I see this A-T philosophy.

    So when you say,

    "You're confusing conditions N which are necessary for X to be possible with X happening necessarily due to conditions C."

    I counter with the fact that in no case is X necessarily due to conditions C. First, your physics background should warn you of the dangers in that statement. Second, notions of cause are based on observation and induction. We can't call it necessary. Third, and most importantly, it's an illusion to claim conditions C can be itemized. Conditions C are infinite. We watch a pool game and filter out the vast majority of Cs. That's the way our brains work. We focus on what means the most to us. The mistake is in making our filtering mechanisms the measure of all things -- the judge of all matter, ruling on the admissibility of what matters, calling one thing an "enabling circumstance" and another thing a "primary" or "secondary" cause.


    "Using brute, counterfactual Don-causation, the hundreds or thousands of other necessities without which H would not have happened would have us more or less blindly changing an immense number of parameters in a combinatorially near-endless trial-and-error process."

    This amounts to a complain that reality is just too complicated to think about. So, you imply, let's simplify and ignore most of it. Of course, in day to day living this is perfectly reasonable. It would be impossible to live any other way. But this is a philosophical issue we're discussing. We're not talking about assessing blame in court. (Don't get me started about the supposed superiority of object oriented programming. :) ) If the goal is to find things like true 'being," our problems coping with that "being" should not limit the search.

    Btw, thanks for that link to "Cosmology and Being." I'll watch it when I have time.

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  183. pck: "Tracing back chains of change does not lead to the source of existence. It only leads to different states of it."

    DJ: Exactly what I've been saying.

    The import of which -- according to you -- is there is not and cannot be a First Cause.

    But that only goes to show two things:

    1) you employ that which your have indicated on numerous occasions is neither efficacious nor worthy of your confidence (i.e., you employ deduction); and,

    2) you're as far away as ever from understanding the argument for a First Cause.

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  184. "All examples of cause, all the subtle distinctions (efficient, material, final, per se, per accidens, etc.) are distinctions invented by humans."

    If pck believes/argues the aspects are real, then the above quote doesn't follow from what pck said. So, we'd need an argument to show that the distinctions are in fact subjective.

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  185. Just jumping in here again, sorry if I miss something.

    "I'm saying no homerun (cause) so far has been derived through logic, so why would we think logic could derive the next one?"

    Well, wouldn't the First Cause argument, if successful, show that a cause has indeed been discovered through deduction? My point is that this statement seems to beg the question. The FC argument fails because a cause cannot be derived through logic. We need reasons to believe that this is a valid objection.

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  186. @DJ

    To clarify, I suppose you could say that you are not claiming "a cause cannot be derived through logic." But if you aren't claiming/arguing that, then why does "I'm saying no homerun (cause) so far has been derived through logic" matter? Presumably, you know that "no x so far has y" does not necessarily imply "no x can ever have y."

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  187. Lastly,

    "There may be an emotional need for some to seek an answer to that question, but I'm not convinced it's a legitimate question."

    What differentiates a legitimate question from an illegitimate question?

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  188. DJ:
    Me: "I don't know what you mean by 'ontic change' or 'ontic causes'.

    Then perhaps you should stop writing sentences like this sentence of yours above: "It is an ontic chain of change that Aristotle and Aquinas trace back.


    Well, I certinly know what I meant when I wrote that. Your meaning on the other hand, since you insist the First Cause is contingent, is perfectly unclear. You seem to think that there is a type of change called "ontic" that philosophers make up which is somehow different than other types of change (since you claim there are no ontic changes). This is confused, as all changes in nature are of course related to the notion of being. So all secondary causes are "ontic" in that sense. With respect to secondary causes, the term "ontic" (again, in that sense) can therefore be dropped, since it is constitutive of the notion of such causes. (Which is why I said: "Ontic" in that context is either superfluous or meaningless.) In the Aristotle/Aquinas quote I included "ontic chain" (and not "ontic cause") to make it clear that "change", as used by those writers, is not limited to concepts as used by modern physics, or even inclusive of all of them. (A similar confusion often arises with the term "motion".)

    As for causes, I also said that only the First Cause properly deserves to be called "ontic", since it grounds the notion of existence, including all contingent change. You simply continue to fail to understand the difference between Being itself and states of being. Glenn is right: you're as far away as ever from understanding the argument for a First Cause.

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  189. DJ:
    the notion of first cause is not solved by letting a Prime Cleaner sweep it under the rug, as if that guy came from nowhere

    It's not a "guy" in any sense of that word. "He" didn't "come" "from" "nowhere" (or anywhere else) either. Literally every word in that statement betrays confusion and a misapprehension of the concept of existence.

    It's no less true to say nature has to exist.

    And nature can/must exist how/why exactly?

    when you get an answer, there's no rule that says it's the ultimate answer. Why God? can also be asked

    It is precisely because all explanation must terminate at some point that arguments like the First Cause have been developed. You cannot go on indefinitely asking "why?" like a child. There is no use in doing so. It is foolish to employ this as a rhetorical tactic against a conclusion you don't like (speaking of emotional needs...). This is of course not just true for the question of Existence. In science, we often use axioms as the terminal/starting points of explanation. Axioms are usually inspired by empirical observation (phenomena of electricity/magnetism => Maxwell's laws) or practices (counting/ordering => number systems, eventually leading to Peano axioms, set theory, etc.). The First Cause is different. It is not an assumption or a formal construct to be applied in the world, but a purely logical conclusion. The only "observation" it relies on is that there is a world at all. Which strictly speaking is not an observation (you could not observe the opposite, there being no world, for purely logical reasons -- see the next post), but a realization, independent of any of the particular details of nature. "Why does anything exist at all?" is not just another ordinary question. The First Cause is the primary building block in the edifice of our attempts to make Existence intelligible to us. It would be foolish to assume that this project could possibly be similar or equal to answering ordinary or scientific "why" questions. Ordinarily, conceptual frameworks determine what counts as an answer to a why-question. Science even formally defines types of "why?" (they're called theories). Understanding the cosmological argument is not like that at all. It produces a different type of lucidity which is not related to any whys of particular kinds of changes in the world, but to the more fundamental (and completely non-scientific) issue of what makes change possible at all. Science-fanboys and gnus like you and Coyne claim to have no use for such deliberations. Which would be fine if you didn't try to argue against metaphysics using scientific frameworks and the empirical observations that inspire them. You're bringing the wrong kinds of tools to the debate you're inciting, and you insist, without giving intelligible reasons for it, that they be the only tools allowed.

    (contd.)

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  190. The FC cannot be observed since it is what makes observation possible in the first place. Here's an analogy: No one can ever see their own eyes with their own eyes. This is logically impossible, not physically, because it is your eyes which make seeing possible in the first place. Your "argument" (if mere assertions without any justifications can be called that) against the FC is like claiming that your eyes don't exist because you've never seen them. So you cannot see or observe Existence itself. Existence is not for you to see, it's for you to be. You're a part of it and it is what gives you your abilities in the first place. (Speaking of Prime Cleaners, as you did, ever watch one of those Pink Panther cartoons where there is a vacuum cleaner that can suck up literally everything? First it consumes all of the objects in the room. Then it proceeds to devour the room itself (the "world"), until there is only the v.c. left before a white background (which is not even empty space -- the world is gone, including geometry). Finally, the v.c. goes on to suck up itself and there is literally nothing left. You can learn something from that regarding the concept of necessary being. You can start by thinking about why the cartoon is funny.)

    "God" as understood by Aristotle/Aquinas is not an axiom, but a logically necessary concept, enabling us to talk about Being itself. Whether or not this is successful, and if it is, in what way [1], can be discussed using logic, reason, and conceptual analysis. What cannot be discussed is whether the FC is a contingent cause on par with secondary causes in nature, as this is not the view held by Aristotle, Aquinas and Thomists.

    Thomists keep applying "previous states of contingent being" in reasoning in issues of Being -- a category error.

    It would be a category error if they carried over their notions for describing contingent change one-to-one to the FC, that is, if they treated the FC as conceptually the same or analogous to secondary causes. But Thomists don't do that. Only you do. You insist, without justification, on equivocating two different uses of "cause", because if you didn't, the worldview you are emotionally attached to would collapse. As Glenn pointed out earlier, you keep telling Thomists that their answers are wrong and their questions are too. This is of course a logical contradiction, no matter what the questions or the answers are. Your confusion is rooted in the same imprecise thinking as your inability to properly discriminate between conceptual frameworks and theories. Only the latter can be falsified. The former can at worst be useless or self-contradictory (and thus confused), but not "wrong". The same is true of questions and answers. Questions are associated with the notion of sense. Answers are associated with the notion of truth. Gnu and science-fanboy confusions almost always come down to the conceptual vs the empirical (if it isn't the blunt lack of knowledge of historical facts or their almost universal ineptitude to actually apply logic and reason instead of merely beating their chests about it).

    ---

    [1] One question might be about how far the perspicuity which Aristotle's and Aquinas's concepts afford us, actually reaches, and what might be done to improve the situation if we should find them lacking in certain respects. (Hint: The answer is not going to be "science".)

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  191. Me: "Tracing back chains of change does not lead to the source of existence. It only leads to different states of it."
    DJ: Exactly what I've been saying.


    You're lying by ommission, because you wrongly concluded from this that there is no First Cause. Which I didn't.

    I'm going quibble with that. The flammable nature of the curtain *is* called a cause of H. It's common to speak of flammable materials being the cause of fires. It's important enough to influence building codes and clothing for example.

    The flammability, as I have pointed out in subsequent posts, is a cause in Aristotle's sense ("cause" = reason), but not in the modern sense ("cause" = an event necessitating another event). My original post, in which I had modern, event-bases causes in mind, was unclear about that, hence my later corrections. It's true that there is a common contemporary causal use of "flammability". Which proves that Aristotle's concepts have not been outdated or rendered useless by science, as you and Coyne claim. But in my example H of a house burning down, the flammability is merely instrumental, the root cause being the faulty wiring. No one who knew the whole story would start with the curtain as the cause of H, especially not in the modern, event-based sense. It's extremely hard, probably impossible, to recast properties (such as flammability) as events or groups of events (while the actual process of burning is not).

    All examples of cause, all the subtle distinctions (efficient, material, final, per se, per accidens, etc.) are distinctions invented by humans.

    All distinctions, full stop, are "invented" by humans. Whose distinctions would we use otherwise? You're not saying anything controversial here.

    We have a subjective way of looking at things. [...] our selectivity and our purposes might very well give us a selective interpretation of events according to our will. This is exactly how I see this A-T philosophy.

    Like most gnus, you don't have a proper grasp of what the difference between "subjective" and "objective" is. The subjective is that which we cannot share with others via explanation (e.g. colour perception), while the objective refers to sharable experiences. Both notions are "fully human" and specific to human beings and human beings only. To mark something down as "subjective" or a "human concept" is no justification to call its validity into question. This is typical gnu behaviour. Results they don't like are labelled "merely subjective" and "tainted with the human perspective" and therefore questionable. But their own frame of reasoning by which these make these judgements is somehow exempt to such criticism. And even if it isn't (which gnus certainly claim, but don't follow through on, or if they do, with disasterous "logic" that ensures their results come out unharmed), it doesn't take much to see that this sort of hyper-skepticism leads nowhere fast.

    But if we want to get to the truth, we have to do our best to look at these issues outside our natural inclinations.

    What counts as truth is a product of what we are like and what the world is like. To disentangle the two is logically impossible. We could try to rid human language of all terminology and concepts that are particular to humans only. But what we would be left with would only be a partial description of reality. Berkeley philosopher Barry Stroud has written a good book about this called "The Quest for Reality". He has also written quite a bit on philosophical skepticism.

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  192. DJ:
    I counter with the fact that in no case is X necessarily due to conditions C.

    That's what Russell said and which I said I agree with earlier. But the criticism applies only to the claim that science uses or tries to discover truths about event-based causation. In that context, your actio=reactio concern is valid.

    notions of cause are based on observation and induction. We can't call it necessary.

    But that is what we do to distinguish events A and B which happen in succession coincidentally (doorbell rings, I get an email 1 second later) from A causing B (pressing the remote's "on" button turns on the TV). The causal nexus we think of doesn't have to be a law of nature like gravity. That notion has been discredited many times and is unlikely to be successfully resurrected. But in everyday usage and with regard to questions like responsibility, events necessitating other events still play a very active role in human conduct. And human conduct is a part of reality, not a theory or formal game.

    The mistake is in making our filtering mechanisms the measure of all things -- the judge of all matter, ruling on the admissibility of what matters, calling one thing an "enabling circumstance" and another thing a "primary" or "secondary" cause.

    The idea that we "filter" reality is a persistent source of many confusions and a typical view of IT people who model their ideas about the mind on how computer programs work. There are lots of what Raymond Tallis calls "neurotrash" theories out there which by now have convinced a major part of the public that we are machine-like beings. The best and most comprehensive criticism of AI imo comes from Hubert Dreyfus ("What Computers (still) cannot do", 2nd ed). Why the brain is not the mind and why the mind is not a thing has been explained by a range of authors (Peter Hacker, Ed Feser, Jeff Coulter, Raymond Tallis, John Searle, and others) whose emphases on what the relevant details are vary.

    The fact that we describe the same situation in different terms and from different angles does not mean that these "judgements" are final, absolute truths to which every view must pay homage. They are tools we use to cope with the world. That I call X a circumstance within one frame of usage and a cause in another does not mean that either or both statements are wrong. Nor is this advocacy for some "anything goes" kind of relativism.

    This amounts to a complain that reality is just too complicated to think about. So, you imply, let's simplify and ignore most of it. Of course, in day to day living this is perfectly reasonable.

    I'm not complaining. As you point out yourself, life would be impossible if we didn't simplify. Hence the problems of people affected with autism who don't have enough "filters". Also, simplification (in the form of classification and generalization) is part of the heart of science. Without simplification we could not make any sense of anything at all among the myriad phenomena in the world. Every second of every day would be a new experience. But if we take the necessity to classify and conceptualize to mean that "all judgement is potentially false, imprecise or tainted with human subjectivity", then science cannot "give us reality" by both definition and necessity, due to the limitations of our human capabilites. The point has been raised many times: When the Coynes of the gnu sphere assert that human thought has been shaped by a necessity for survival, then how can we rely on what reason tells us about how things "actually are".

    (contd.)

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  193. The problem here is that nobody ever clarifies what the criteria for "how things actually are" actually are. And you cannot find something unless you have fixed what counts as finding it. If we subscribe to the notion that the world is a huge mess of never exactly repeating events which we classify by making "cruder" notions by grouping them, then all hopes of capturing "reality" go out of the window. But this position itself relies on many tacit philosophical notions which can be criticized. (Btw, if the brain worked by conceptually grouping events and facts, then, as Dreyfus and others have shown, the simplest daily context-dependent tasks would take forever, since the lookup times in databases grow exponentially with the amount of information that must be analysed. And a database containing all of our "world-knowledge" in proposition-like form would be immense.)

    My own notion of what is real, inspired by Wittgenstein, is that we devise language-involving practices, "language-games", which constitute what counts as "real" for the relevant context at hand. What keeps language-games grounded in reality is practice. There is nothing absolute unless you do it. When we engage in speech-acts, we are participating in reality rather than making models of it. When we talk *about* reality, we do not talk about a thing. Statements about what "reality is like" are rules of language which only look like factual propositions that name or point to things. (This view is compatible with much of what Aristotle says, even if A. did not phrase it like that.) A strict Wittgensteinian view would be to say that all talk about Existence is nonsensical, because the opposite of Existence is unthinkable. But in attempting to clear this unclearable hurdle, in recognizing that we are trying to say the unsayable, we see an indication that we are not trying to reach a place which does not exist. We are merely trying to reach a place that cannot be conceptualized. But it can be experienced, by the aforementioned attempts to reach it. So while we may be talking nonsense, it is instructive nonsense, not mere gibberish. I sometimes wonder if the first commandment is not at least partly inspired by such a thought or something similar. One would have to ask a bible scholar.

    If the goal is to find things like true 'being," our problems coping with that "being" should not limit the search.

    I agree, but that is not an argument against Thomism or Aristotle. Also, what "being" means is pretty much fixed by very stable human practices that have been going on for millenia and are not about to change drastically. Any technical or theoretical recasting or reformulation of existential terms would have to refer back to our ordinary uses of "being" and "exist" for intelligibility (just like "energy" or "force" in physics). Ordinary language-involving practices always precede theory, which therefore cannot jettison its ties to them. Technical language cannot exist on its own, no matter how sophisticated.

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  194. Ignore my comment at February 20, 2016 at 7:07 PM, I guess.

    pck's explanation is more accurate.

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  195. Glenn,

    I'm confident I understand the argument for First Cause. It's not too complicated. If you think I do not understand, please tell me what you think I don't understand. Please keep in mind that reservations about certain assumptions and leaps of reason made in the argument do not imply a lack of understanding.


    BLS,

    "If pck believes/argues the aspects are real, then the above quote doesn't follow from what pck said. So, we'd need an argument to show that the distinctions are in fact subjective."

    I've given and have often given my reasons for saying these distinctions are subjective. But regardless, a proof -- any proof -- works only if the target audience agrees the assumptions made in the proof are solid. I do not agree and have given many reasons why.


    "Well, wouldn't the First Cause argument, if successful, show that a cause has indeed been discovered through deduction? My point is that this statement seems to beg the question."

    Problem is, the First Cause argument does not deduce an 'ontic' First Cause. It sneaks it in as an assumption. It asserts that temporal cause implies -- even necessitates -- 'ontic' cause.


    "Presumably, you know that 'no x so far has y' does not necessarily imply 'no x can ever have y.'"

    Correct. But it should be a red flag if suddenly someone claims x has y in one and probably only one case.


    "What differentiates a legitimate question from an illegitimate question?

    "Why is grass so happy?" is probably not a legitimate question.

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  196. pck,

    "So all secondary causes are 'ontic' in that sense."

    Your best hope is if the law of conservation of matter and energy is falsified. Unless that happens, I'll be a stickler about the fact that Being itself and states of being are different. I understand this quite well.


    "And nature can/must exist how/why exactly?"

    We surely know it does exist. It seems irrational to say it really shouldn't exist and needs outside help to keep it around.


    "The First Cause is the primary building block in the edifice of our attempts to make Existence intelligible to us."

    Existence is intelligible to the average three year old.


    "Understanding the cosmological argument is not like that at all. It produces a different type of lucidity"

    This I deny. The cosmological argument explains nothing. It certainly does not explain "what makes change possible at all." Later, you add:

    "But in attempting to clear this unclearable hurdle, in recognizing that we are trying to say the unsayable, we see an indication that we are not trying to reach a place which does not exist. We are merely trying to reach a place that cannot be conceptualized."

    So conceptually, what is this Prime Mover? Let's cut to the chase. We both know it's God, if not in the biblical sense, very close to it. I'm reminded of how early Puritans thought of God -- as a being totally inscrutable. I cast a suspicious eye on those who pretend to know what God is. So you can probably see where I'm going. If existence is dependent on a totally inscrutable being, how is it an explanation to say being depends on profound, the most profound inscrutability?

    I'll drop the "Why God?" or "Why would God do such a thing?" questions for now. I could say a lot about these but the discussion has gotten too wide already.


    "Science-fanboys and gnus like you and Coyne claim to have no use for such deliberations. Which would be fine if you didn't try to argue against metaphysics using scientific frameworks and the empirical observations that inspire them."

    Straw man alert.


    "The FC cannot be observed since it is what makes observation possible in the first place."

    I wonder if it's possible for nonsense to remain nonsense yet still beg the question?


    "No one can ever see their own eyes with their own eyes."

    Have you never looked into a mirror? Are you trying to tell me you're a vampire?


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  197. pck,

    "You're lying by omission, because you wrongly concluded from this that there is no First Cause. Which I didn't."

    I claim that ample evidence of C cannot be applied as evidence there is E. Different states of change do not necessarily say anything about the source of existence.

    The argument goes like this:

    1) If states of change happen in a terminating chain then existence happens in a terminating chain.

    2) States of change happen in a terminating chain,

    3) Therefore existence happens in a terminating chain.

    I dispute both 1 and 2. I dispute 1 for two reasons. The second of those reasons is pertinent here. You agree (with some caveats?) that states of change are not the same as existence itself, or "cause" in the Thomist sense of enabling existence. Since you agree (somewhat) that they are different, I wonder how you can ignore my objection that evidence for one cannot be held as evidence for the other. When you claim one is 'logically' necessary, I would like to see the syllogism.


    "It's true that there is a common contemporary causal use of 'flammability'. Which proves that Aristotle's concepts have not been outdated or rendered useless by science, as you and Coyne claim."

    To speak in your manner, it's useless as a conceptual framework.


    "The subjective is that which we cannot share with others via explanation (e.g. colour perception), while the objective refers to sharable experiences."

    Religion is shared. Religion is subjective. Art is shared. Art is subjective.

    objective -- (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.


    "To mark something down as 'subjective' or a 'human concept' is no justification to call its validity into question."

    In matters of 'logical' proofs, in matters of evidence, it definitely is. Just ask a group of people what last year's best movie was and you'll see how weak subjective arguments are.


    "The idea that we 'filter' reality is a persistent source of many confusions and a typical view of IT people who model their ideas about the mind on how computer programs work."

    There's no doubt that human beings filter what we see as important in the world. We do this from birth. This is not a mechanical process. This "IT" thing is yet another straw man. The filtering is very un-machine-like. It's based on our emotions, on our wants and interests. Machines have none of those things.


    "When the Coynes of the gnu sphere assert that human thought has been shaped by a necessity for survival, then how can we rely on what reason tells us about how things 'actually are'."

    It would be surprising, and kind of interesting in a sci-fi way, if survival in the real world depended on radically misinterpreting that world.

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  198. DJ: notions of cause are based on observation and induction. We can't call it necessary.

    Me: But that is what we do to distinguish events A and B which happen in succession coincidentally (doorbell rings, I get an email 1 second later) from A causing B (pressing the remote's "on" button turns on the TV).


    A better example to illustrate this difference would be a case of correlated events which are not causally related, such as putting money into a coffee vending machine (C). The machine first dispenses a cup (A), then fills it with coffee (B). A and B are inductively correlated, but A does not cause B. Rather, C causes A and B.

    If you don't like the term "necessary" (because occasionally the vending machine will not function properly, so that A will occur but not B), replace it with "very likely". Russell dismisses probabilistic notions of causality for the same reason he dismisses notions of necessity, but again, only with respect to what the natural sciences aim to discover. (What he says is that even if there are series of events in nature which never fail to occur, this is not what is expressed by laws like F=G*m1*m2/r^2. Nevertheless, inductive correlations of events play an important role in finding such laws and inspiring new scientific endeavours.)

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  199. DJ:
    I've given and have often given my reasons for saying these distinctions are subjective.

    Still confused about what "subjective" means.

    "Why is grass so happy?" is probably not a legitimate question.

    But your're not sure? Because "grass" and "happy" are man-made concepts?

    Your best hope is if the law of conservation of matter and energy is falsified. Unless that happens, I'll be a stickler about the fact that Being itself and states of being are different. I understand this quite well.

    How does conservation of energy prove that being=Being? A complete non sequitur.

    Me: "And nature can/must exist how/why exactly?"

    We surely know it does exist. It seems irrational to say it really shouldn't exist and needs outside help to keep it around.


    Another non-answer. "It seems irrational" is not an argument.

    Existence is intelligible to the average three year old.

    Absolutely not. A three year old has learned about object permanence. He is far from being able to conceptualize an abstract notion such as existence, let alone Existence.

    This I deny. The cosmological argument explains nothing. It certainly does not explain "what makes change possible at all."

    More assertions with no reasons given as to why anybody should believe them.

    So conceptually, what is this Prime Mover? Let's cut to the chase. We both know it's God, if not in the biblical sense, very close to it. I'm reminded of how early Puritans thought of God -- as a being totally inscrutable. I cast a suspicious eye on those who pretend to know what God is. So you can probably see where I'm going. If existence is dependent on a totally inscrutable being, how is it an explanation to say being depends on profound, the most profound inscrutability?

    God is another name for Prime Mover, so to say "we know it's God" makes no sense. Of course there is something inscrutable about Existence which no argument, including the cosmological argument, will make go away. That does not mean we cannot do better than nothing. Recognizing that contingent existence is not the same as Existence itself is one such step.

    Me: [...] if you didn't try to argue against metaphysics using scientific frameworks and the empirical observations that inspire them."

    DJ: Straw man alert.


    Troll alert. Again, no reasons, no explanations, just obstinate denial.

    I wonder if it's possible for nonsense to remain nonsense yet still beg the question?

    You're the best example for that, so the answer is yes.

    Me: "No one can ever see their own eyes with their own eyes."

    DJ: Have you never looked into a mirror? Are you trying to tell me you're a vampire?


    It's sad how predictably obtuse you are. What you see in a mirror is a reflection, an image of your eyes, not your eyes themselves. Try poking either with a sharp stick, if you need to learn more about the difference between the two.

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