Thursday, July 23, 2015

Fulford on sola scriptura, Part II


Let’s return to Andrew Fulford’s reply at The Calvinist International to my recent post on Feyerabend, empiricism, and sola scriptura.  Recall that the early Jesuit critique of sola scriptura cited by Feyerabend maintains that (a) scripture alone can never tell you what counts as scripture, (b) scripture alone cannot tell you how to interpret scripture, and (c) scripture alone cannot give us a procedure for deriving consequences from scripture, applying it to new circumstances, etc.  In an earlier post I addressed Fulford’s reply to point (a).  Let’s now consider his attempt to rebut the other two points.

Elaborating upon point (b) in my original post, I noted that:

If you say that scriptural passage A is to be interpreted in light of scriptural passage B, then how do you know you’ve gotten B itself right?  And why not say instead that B should be interpreted in light of A?  Inevitably you’re going to have to go beyond scripture in order to settle such questions.

In response to this, Fulford says:

The problem with this overall objection… is that it overlooks the fact that texts are intrinsically meaningful, and that people are capable of perceiving the intending [sic] meaning of others when they communicate…  [T]here is no special problem with the interpretation of scripture that does not arise for the interpretation of any human communication, including the ex cathedra pronouncements of a putatively infallible Pope.  If reason can understand the words of such a Pope, there is no reason in principle it could not understand scriptural passage A or B.  There may be particular problems as a result of historical ignorance, but these can be resolved in principle the same way any issue of interpretation for any human text is resolved… [I]nterpreting texts in their natural [historical] context, the rule that “scripture interprets scripture” is entirely reasonable: the books of scripture are the products of authors writing closest in time and culture to other books of scripture.

End quote.  Now, the trouble with Fulford’s remarks here is that they ignore the crucial differences between texts on the one hand and the persons who write and interpret texts on the other -- thereby missing the entire point of the critique of sola scriptura.  Start with the fact that texts are quite obviously not “intrinsically meaningful,” contrary to what Fulford says.  Texts are made up of linguistic symbols, and linguistic symbols are human artifacts.  That the shapes you see on your computer screen as you read this count as linguistic symbols at all is a result of the conventions of English usage.  That they convey the specific meaning they do in this blog post is a result of those conventions together with my intentions in writing the blog post.  Apart from those conventions and intentions, the shapes would be meaningless, mere patterns of light on a screen or (if you printed this post out) patterns of ink on paper.  The linguistic symbols that make up scripture are, of course, like that too.  They bear the meanings they do because of linguistic convention together with the intentions of the authors. 

Fulford would no doubt agree with that much.  He would also evidently insist that we have evidence of a historical sort concerning the conventions and intentions in question, and he is right about that.  Just as someone who knows English and has read a number of other things I’ve written is going to be able to understand much of what I have to say in any particular blog post, so too is anyone familiar with the relevant languages and historical background going to be able to understand much of what he reads in scripture, and in any other historical document for that matter.  No one denies that.  Certainly, critics of sola scriptura are not denying that you can to a considerable extent understand scripture just by virtue of knowing the languages in which it is written, something of the historical and cultural contexts of the events it describes, etc.  They aren’t claiming that without an authoritative institutional Church, scripture would be as unintelligible as (say) Esperanto is to most people.  So, pointing out, as Fulford does, that “context,” “time and culture,” and the like can clarify the meaning of scriptural passages is not really to the point.

What is to the point is that there is, nevertheless, necessarily going to be a degree of indeterminacy in the meaning of any text, considered just by itself, even given knowledge of linguistic conventions, historical context, etc.  This is in the very nature of texts.  I will explain why this is a problem in principle in a moment, but first let’s notice how great a problem it can be in practice even in the case of an author whose writings are numerous, well-known, and have been the object of scholarly study for centuries.  Consider, to take just one example, that the correct interpretation of Aristotle’s views on the nature of the intellect and the possibility of personal immortality is notoriously controversial and has been for centuries.  Can it be shown on Aristotelian philosophical grounds that the individual human soul survives death?  I certainly think so.  But that question is very different from the question of whether Aristotle himself took that view.  Appealing to Aristotle’s writings on the subject cannot by itself settle this exegetical question, because how to interpret those writings is precisely what is at issue.  In particular, reading Aristotle passage A in light of Aristotle passage B won’t solve the problem, because which passages should determine how the others get read is part of what is in dispute.  Interpreting all of the relevant passages in light of the larger body of Aristotle’s writings, historical and cultural context, etc. hasn’t settled things either.  And the one certain method of determining what Aristotle himself thought -- asking him -- isn’t possible because he’s dead.  Examples of this sort of problem could be multiplied by citing other well-known authors of the past.    

Now, does scripture raise exegetical issues which appeal to scripture by itself cannot settle?  The existence of myriad Protestant denominations and sects which agree on sola scriptura but nevertheless somehow disagree deeply on many matters of biblical interpretation is, I submit, pretty good evidence that it does.

Yet might not sufficient good will, along with sufficient knowledge of a linguistic and historical sort, at least in principle solve the problem?  No, they would not.  The reasons should be obvious to anyone familiar with the various indeterminacy arguments which James Ross once rightly characterized as “among the jewels of analytic philosophy,” and which I have discussed many times (e.g. here, here, and here).  The problem is that material symbols and systems of symbols -- and texts are collections of such symbols -- are, no matter how complex the system in question, inherently indeterminate in their meaning.  There are always in principle various alternative ways to interpret them, alternatives which the symbols themselves cannot adjudicate between.  This (as I and other writers have emphasized) is the deep reason why computationalist and other materialist accounts of thought cannot possibly be right.  Thought can be determinate or unambiguous in its content in a way material symbols and systems of symbols cannot possibly be.  But the system of symbols that makes up a text is no different in this regard from a purported system of symbols encoded in the brain.  By itself it can never be as determinate as the thoughts of the author of the text.

Notice that the claim is not that “anything goes.”  It is not that a text might plausibly be given just any old interpretation.  There may be any number of proposed interpretations which are ruled out.  The point is that the text cannot by itself rule out all alternative interpretations.  Notice also that the claim is not that texts are indeterminate full stop.  The claim is that a text all by itself cannot rule out all the alternatives.  Appeal to something outside the text is necessary.

Nor do we need exotic scenarios like Kripke’s “quus” example in order to make the point (though such examples are certainly relevant).  Consider instead the critique of the symbolic processing approach in artificial intelligence developed by philosophers like Hubert Dreyfus and John Searle.  The approach in question presupposes that intelligence can be embodied entirely in explicit representations and rules, such as the symbols processed by a Turing machine and the algorithms by which they are processed.  And the problem with this is that the interpretation of representations and rules presupposes an intellect which does the interpreting, so that such representations and rules cannot coherently be taken to explain the existence and operation of the intellect. 

Consider even a very simple set of rules, such as those commanding the following series of actions:

1. Walk from the back of the desk to the front.

2. Walk from the front of the desk to the back.

3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.

Almost anybody following these rules will do so by walking around the desk, but there is nothing in the rules that really requires that.  One could follow them instead by stepping up on the desk and walking across it.  Now these two interpretations are incompatible, at least insofar as you can’t walk around the desk and across it at the same time -- though one could decide instead to walk around it at first, and then in later applications of the rules to walk across it.  In any event, the rules themselves won’t tell you which of these three interpretations (walking around, walking across, or doing both but at different times) is the right one.

Suppose we tighten up the rules in order to clarify this.  Suppose they instead read “Walk around the desk from the back…” etc.  You might think that this now makes things completely unambiguous.  And perhaps most people who follow these revised rules will proceed, in following them, to walk clockwise around the desk.  But there is really nothing in even the revised rules that requires that.  One could instead walk counterclockwise, or mix things up by walking clockwise sometimes and counterclockwise at other times.  Again, nothing in the rules by themselves determines which of these procedures is correct. 

Nor would revising the rules again in order to get around this problem eliminate all indeterminacy.  Suppose we altered them to read “Walk clockwise around the desk from the back…” etc.  Now everything would be clear and unambiguous, right?  Not from the rules all by themselves.  Should one move around the desk in a circular path?  Or should one trace out an extremely wide oval path?  Should one walk in a shuffling way?  Do a zig zag?   Are hopping and skipping allowed?  When beginning one’s walk from the front to the back, should one first leave the room and then reenter before reaching the back?  Further additions could be made to the rules to settle such questions, but however that is done, it will only leave us with a revised body of rules which will itself be susceptible of yet further possible alternative and incompatible interpretations.

Now, in real life what determines how rules get followed are people -- the people who make the rules and the people who follow them.  You ask the person who made the rules: “Do you want me to do it this way or that way?,” or you just decide yourself to do it one way rather than the other.  You may do so deliberately, or you may do so unconsciously, by virtue of certain habits you picked up in childhood or from the culture around you.   (Both Dreyfus and Searle in their different ways emphasize the aspect of intelligence that is tacit or not fully brought to the level of conscious consideration.)  Either way, it is the fact that people are intelligent that makes them capable of interpreting systems of rules and representations.  Hence it gets things the wrong way around to try to explain intelligence in terms of rules and representations.  It isn’t rules and representations that explain why intelligence exists; rather, it is intelligence that explains why rules and representations exist.

When people focus their attention on computers themselves and don’t dwell on how they got here, computers can seem self-contained.  It can seem that it’s just an intrinsic or built-in fact about them that the symbols they process have such-and-such a meaning and that they are running such-and-such algorithms.  The illusion develops that the computer is somehow doing what it’s doing all by itself, and that’s why it can seem a good model for understanding human intelligence.  But this is an illusion.  In reality, there is no fact of the matter, from the intrinsic physical facts about it alone, concerning what meaning the computer’s symbols have or what algorithms it is running.  It is only because the machine’s designers constructed it a certain way, and its users use it a certain way, that its internal physical processes count as having the significance they do.  The meaning of the symbols and the precise algorithms that it is running are determined by something outside the machine, and it is only by appeal to this external source of meaning that questions about the precise significance of the machine’s operations can in principle be settled.  (Cf. my previous posts on Kripke’s and Popper’s and Searle’s critiques of computationalism.)

Texts are like computers in this respect.  It is easy to focus one’s attention on the text itself so that the author, like the computer’s designers, disappears from view and the text can come to seem to have a meaning or significance all on its own, “built in” as it were.  Hence Fulford’s casual remark that “texts are intrinsically meaningful.”  But this is no less an illusion than is the computationalist illusion that there could be such a thing as a machine whose syntax and semantics are intrinsic to it rather than relative to the intentions of the designers and users of the machine.  (Feyerabend compares sola scriptura to classical empiricism.  He could just as well have compared it to the computationalist model of the mind.)

Now, for everyday purposes, it is of course not necessary to advert to the designers’ intentions when using a computer.  You just use the computer and get along well enough.  But when something goes wrong, or there is some ambiguity in how the machine is functioning (“Is it supposed to be doing this?”), the designers’ intentions alone can settle the matter.  Similarly, when reading a text, for the most part we don’t need consciously to bring to mind the fact that the text has a specific author who had such-and-such intentions in writing.  We just read the text, and for the most part we get along well enough.  But when the text is unclear, or seems to be inconsistent in places, the author’s intentions come to the fore, and can alone settle the matter.  And if the author is dead, the matter may well never be settled -- hence the problems in interpreting Aristotle’s De Anima

Now, where scripture is concerned, both the Catholic and Protestant sides in the dispute over sola scriptura agree that it has a divine author, who is of course not dead.  But both sides also agree that this divine author works through human instruments.  What they disagree about is whether these human instruments are all dead.  The sola scriptura position is, in effect, that they are all dead.  For it holds that God reveals what we need to know for salvation via scripture alone, and the human authors of scripture are all dead.  The Catholic position, by contrast, is that some of the human instruments in question are dead, but some are not.  For it holds that God reveals what we need to know for salvation in part via scripture but also in part via an ongoing institutional Church which has divine guidance in interpreting scripture.  And it holds that unless there were such living human instruments, we would be stuck in something like the position we’re stuck in vis-à-vis the interpretation of De Anima -- worse, in fact, since settling the question of how to interpret De Anima is not relevant to salvation, whereas settling the question of how to interpret scripture is relevant to salvation.

You might say, then, that the scenario described by the Catholic position is comparable to a situation in which Aristotle is still alive, and while he doesn’t answer questions about the proper interpretation of De Anima directly, nevertheless does answer them indirectly, by speaking through intermediaries.  The sola scriptura position, by contrast, is comparable to a situation in which Aristotle is still alive, but neither answers questions about De Anima directly nor speaks through intermediaries.  He just leaves you with the text of De Anima itself and lets its readers quarrel over its proper interpretation interminably.  Worse, it’s like a situation in which Aristotle allowed this and also believed that getting De Anima wrong would lead to serious errors of a theological and moral sort. 

Now, Fulford insinuates that interpreting “the ex cathedra pronouncements of a putatively infallible Pope” is no less problematic than interpreting scripture.  But (with all due respect to Fulford) this is as silly as saying that in understanding De Anima, asking Aristotle himself what it means -- or rather, asking Aristotle’s representative, sent by Aristotle precisely for the purpose of answering questions about how to interpret De Anima -- is no better than just reading the text.  It is as silly as saying that in trying to find out how some computer is supposed to function, asking the technicians who represent the company that manufactured the computer is no better than just examining the computer for yourself.  Of course, what Aristotle or his representative might tell you, or what the computer technician might tell you, might itself have ambiguities of its own or raise further questions.  But precisely because these are literal, living persons, you can literally ask them for further clarification if need be.  You can’t literally ask a text or a computer anything. 

Fulford also says:

[I]f verbal statements or written texts always require further interpretations external to themselves to be intelligible, we would need an infinite series of interpreters to understand any human speech, even that of infallible Popes.

This is like saying that since what the computer technician tells you might raise questions of its own, you need an infinite series of technicians, or that since what Aristotle’s representative tells you might be ambiguous, you need an infinite series of representatives.  In fact, this doesn’t follow at all.  All that follows is that you might have follow-up questions for the same, one technician, or the same one representative.  Of course, the technician or representative in question might die, but as long as there is some new technician or representative to take his place, you can just ask for clarification from that one new technician or representative.  Similarly, you don’t need an infinite series of interpreters to understand the statements of some pope.  You just ask that one, particular pope for clarification, and if he dies you just ask the next particular pope. 

Fulford’s mistake is that he thinks the issue has to do with how many texts there are.  He says there’s one, and he thinks that what the Catholic critic of sola scriptura is saying is that there’s more than one.  And his objection is that any problems that would arise with the one text would arise also with a larger set of texts.  He’s right about that much.  But he’s wrong on two counts.  First, if the Catholic position really did differ from sola scriptura only in the number of texts it posits, that wouldn’t show that sola scriptura is right after all.  Rather, it would show that the Catholic position and sola scriptura are both wrong, and for the same reasons.  But second, the difference between sola scriptura and the Catholic position is not fundamentally about how many texts there are.  Rather, the Catholic position is that it can’t all be just texts in the first place.  Rather, we have to be able to get outside of texts, to persons who have the authority to tell us what the texts mean.

Let’s now turn briefly to point (c) of the Jesuit critique of sola scriptura cited by Feyerabend -- the idea that scripture alone cannot give us a procedure for deriving consequences from scripture, applying it to new circumstances, etc.  Fulford responds that:

[T]he objection relies on a misapprehension of what sola scriptura claims… [I]t never meant that scripture apart from the rational capacities of human beings was somehow to function as an authority in the church; Protestants recognized that individuals had to subjectively understand and appropriate the message of the Bible.

To see what is wrong with this response, consider the theological controversies that have arisen over the centuries concerning the Trinity, the Incarnation, justification, transubstantiation, contraception, divorce and remarriage, Sunday observance, infant baptism, slavery, pacifism, the consistency of scripture with scientific claims, sola scriptura itself, and a host of other issues.  Now, either scripture alone can settle these controversies or it cannot.  If Fulford says that it cannot, then he will thereby make of sola scriptura a vacuous doctrine, since if it cannot answer such questions then it cannot tell us whether it is Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Christians, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Mennonites, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarian Universalists, or some other group entirely who has got Christianity right. 

Presumably he would not say this, though.  Presumably he would say that scripture alone can settle such issues, and certainly most sola scriptura proponents have thought so, since they tend to regard the holding of certain specific positions on at least many of these issues as a requirement of Christian orthodoxy.  But in that case Fulford will be saying something false, since scripture alone manifestly cannot settle these issues, for opposite positions on all of them have been defended on scriptural grounds. 

Moreover, what even most Protestants regard as the orthodox view on some of these issues was hammered out on grounds that are philosophical, and not merely scriptural.  For instance, it is not merely scripture, but scripture together with considerations about the nature of substance, persons, etc. that leads to the doctrine of the Trinity.  Now, the sola scriptura-affirming Trinitarian might say that you simply cannot make sense of the entirety of what scripture tells us about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit unless you bring to bear such philosophical considerations.  Hence anyone who wants to do justice to scripture had better be a Trinitarian.  I think that is correct.  But a sola scriptura-affirming anti-Trinitarian might respond that since these philosophical considerations are not themselves to be found in scripture, the Trinitarian doctrine that presupposes them cannot be binding on Christians or definitive of orthodoxy.  Which of these “scripture alone” affirmers is right?  Scripture alone cannot tell us.

Or consider disputes about how to reconcile scripture with the claims of science.  Should we read Genesis in a way that requires us to conclude that the universe is only a few thousand years old?  Or can it legitimately be read in a way consistent with the universe being billions of years old?  Does scripture teach that the earth does not move, so that it conflicts with a heliocentric view of the solar system?  Or should the relevant passages be read another way?  Should we regard Adam as having been made directly from the dust of the ground, or is there wiggle room here to regard Adam’s body as having been made from it indirectly, God having used as raw material a pre-human ancestor whose own ancestors derived remotely from the dust of the ground?  If Fulford were to say that scripture alone can settle these issues, he would be saying something manifestly false, since there is no passage of scripture that tells us which of the competing ways of reading the passages in question here is the correct one. 

I imagine he would not say that, though.  I imagine he would say instead that we have to look outside scripture itself in order to settle these matters.  But to admit that is to give the game away.  For an enormous amount rides on how these matters are settled.  For one thing, whether scripture is in general reliable rides on how they are settled, and therefore everything else scripture teaches rides on it.  For another thing, how we decide these matters will involve deciding upon general principles of scriptural interpretation, and those principles are bound to have repercussions for other doctrinal questions.  But if it is consistent with sola scriptura to say that the general reliability of scripture, and general principles for interpreting scripture -- matters which in turn affect everything scripture teaches -- can legitimately come from outside scripture, then sola scriptura once again seems vacuous. 

Then there is the fact that the problem for sola scriptura raised by point (c) is inseparable from the problem raised by point (b).  For the sorts of conclusions we can draw from scripture obviously depend on how we interpret scripture.  The problems with Fulford’s response to (b) thus inevitably leak over into any attempt to respond to (c).

So, I conclude that Fulford’s response to points (b) and (c), like his response to (a) considered in my previous post in this series, fails. 

A final analogy: In the movie Memento, the protagonist Leonard Shelby loses the ability to form new memories after a blow to the head from an attacker who also raped and murdered Shelby’s wife.  Shelby attempts to track down the killer, tattooing clues onto his body so that he won’t forget them, and writing himself notes and taking photographs to remind him of where he lives, what car he drives, who the people he comes into contact with are, and so forth.  The trouble is that his inability to form new memories has also robbed him of the ability properly to understand the meanings of the tattoos, notes, and photos.  Hence he misinterprets what he has written and draws mistaken conclusions from it.  Shelby’s error is supposing that the tattoos, notes, and pictures by themselves will suffice to tell him what he needs to know.  And they do tell him quite a bit.  He is able to infer correctly that the man he is after has the first name “John” and a last name that begins with “G,” that the people in the photographs are people he knows and that the car he sees in one of them is one he has driven, and so forth.  But he nevertheless gets other, crucial things badly wrong -- for example, he continually misinterprets exactly who “John G” is, does not realize that the car in question in fact belongs to someone else, has completely forgotten the true reason one of his notes identifies a certain “John G” as the killer, and so forth.  Moreover, if Shelby thought about it, he would realize that he cannot even be sure that all of the notes and tattoos were really left by his earlier self in the first place.  Maybe someone else wrote some of the notes, or had certain things tattooed on his body while he was drugged or held at gunpoint. 

In short, Shelby is in a situation that mirrors each of the three problems with sola scriptura we’ve been discussing.  All he’s got to go on are his notes and tattoos.  But (a) the notes and tattoos by themselves cannot tell him which notes and tattoos are genuine or indeed whether any of them are, (b) the notes and tattoos themselves cannot tell him how properly to interpret the notes and tattoos, and (c) the notes and tattoos themselves cannot tell him how to derive implications from the notes and tattoos.  And just as sola scriptura advocates disagree radically among themselves about what scripture teaches, so too does Shelby come, at different points in the movie, to radically different conclusions about what his notes and tattoos mean -- at one point thinking a certain person is “John G,” at other points thinking that some totally different person is “John G,” at one point thinking that a certain motel room is his while believing at another point that he occupies a different room, and so forth.

Alas, poor Shelby sees no alternative to his incoherent “sola notes and tattoos” position.  But the Christian does have an alternative to sola scriptura, or so we Catholics maintain.

294 comments:

  1. Nate:

    Did the Pharisees know what the books of the canon were?

    If not, why does Jesus assume they know them?

    If so, how did they know them? By a magisterium? By Jesus? By happy accident? By the light of scripture? How?


    I've already addressed this and I'm done with your silliness. One last time: yes, the Pharisees knew what books belonged to the Scriptural canon, and I'm confident that they knew it through divine guidance.* Whether they knew (or believed) their knowledge was infallible is another matter, one to which your question is irrelevant.

    Now, as I said, I'm done here.

    ----

    * Even if they had done so through nothing more than natural reason, that wouldn't pose a problem for anything I or Timocrates has said anywhere in this thread (any more than would the fact that I know through natural reason alone which short stories and novellas properly belong to the Sherlockian canon). I don't think that's what happened, but nothing at issue in this discussion requires that natural reason be insufficient.

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  2. Scott:

    I have no idea why you place such importance on this single example.

    Because I think it’s really, really important.

    there's no contradiction between Jesus's own original mission being specifically to Israel and the mission of the Apostles being expanded after His death and resurrection to include all the other nations. (Presumably the latter was part of the divine plan all along, but even if it hadn't been, no contradiction would be involved.)

    Compare:

    There’s no contradiction between the Catholic Church’s original mission to have exclusively male priests and a later Pope’s decision to expand the clergy to include females. (Presumably the latter was part of the divine plan all along, but even if it hadn’t been, no contradiction would be involved.)

    But again, I think that there is a contradiction between the Gospel is exclusively for the Jews and the Gospel is for Jews and Gentiles. At the very least, you can see that the traditional Jewish Christians saw them as contradictory, which is precisely why they demanded an account from Peter to justify his preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, and it was only after he provided his account that they revised their doctrine. They did not accept it solely on the basis of Peter’s authority as vicar of Christ.

    Second, that some people argued with Peter over that expansion means exactly that: that some people argued with him.

    It seems a little bit more involved than that. The NT says that “when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him” (Acts 11:2). Who are “the circumcised believers”? Just “some people”, i.e. a few minor, insignificant Jewish Christians? If that was the case, then why would Peter have felt the need to give an account to a random group of Jewish Christians?

    You are simply mistaken that "[t]he Catholic position is that the Pope is the ultimate authority on doctrinal matters"; the Catholic position is that God is the ultimate authority on doctrinal matters.

    Okay, but then what exactly is the role of the Pope in resolving divergent possible interpretations of Holy Scripture? The impression that I had from this entire discussion is that the Pope has a unique ability to infallibly determine the correct interpretation of Holy Scripture. If not, then what was the whole point of Feser’s argument that there must be an authority outside the text to determine correct meaning if the text itself is indeterminate? I thought that Pope played this role. If not, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

    Those who disagreed with Peter merely didn't believe he was speaking infallibly and with divine authority at that point, even though it turned out that he was right (which in and of itself wouldn't have meant he was necessarily speaking infallibly anyway). So what?

    So, the Pope can make a declaration of Church doctrine, and Christians are free to disagree with it if they “didn’t believe he was speaking infallibly and with divine authority at that point”? Interesting.

    By the way, you'll have noted that I refer to the Pope as (under the relevant conditions) "infallible" rather than "inerrant." As Brandon has noted, they're not the same.

    Where did Brandon say that? As far as I know, and I don’t know much, “infallible” means “incapable of being wrong” and “inerrant” means “incapable of being wrong”. If Catholics have different definitions, then what are they?

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  3. the mission was broadened to include the Gentiles, which meant rejecting the earlier position of Jewish exclusivity. So, in this case, at least, the Church did “contradict its own teachings” (i.e. the Judeo-centric Gospel) “to incorporate those who don’t accept its teachings” (i.e. those who reject the Judeo-centric Gospel).

    Well, that's a funny way to characterize Christ saying "go forth and teach all nations."


    What part of "all nations" implies that the post-resurrection sending forth was to the Jews alone? Obviously the Matt 10 passage is a different sending. You can't change how things are done, first close to home and then later with a wider audience? That's a pretty flimsy argument.

    The Apostles, when Peter corrected short-comings in their practices (not in their explicit teachings as from authority), the rest of the Apostles accepted that his correction was consistent with Jesus own command. And they then (at the Council of Jerusalem) accepted Peter's authority to close the issue, with a definitive "it has been decided". This is the others treating Peter as the final authority present in the flesh.

    The others "arguing" with Peter only occurs when Peter is not apparently acting decisively and authoritatively - when he is not acting on his authority in its highest setting. As a parent, plenty of times I suggest, urge, and recommend my kids do something, without commanding it. And sometimes I do something that sets a poor precedent, because I haven't thought through the issue and what kind of idea kids will walk away with. Neither of those imply that I don't HAVE the authority to command, or the capacity to set official precedent intentionally and definitively.

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  4. @ Timocrates

    I agree completely and well-said.

    That is arguably the fundamental difference from the POV of textual indeterminacy, especially when we are using closed, historical texts - and therefore Aristotle's corpus is a good comparison if we are considering textual indeterminacy for the doctrine of sola scriptura.


    Yes. I think it's a good way to phrase it.

    Fulford seems to agree on this point. He just does not think that there is any important "hard" indeterminacy in the Bible.

    I find that implausible, but it's also not a field I am hugely familiar with. Though I would also say: There seems to be a worry about circularity, which is part of what I'm trying to get at in my arguments. In particular, the question is: Why does sola scriptura have to be formulated so that all the stuff relevant to salvation is contained in the parts that are sufficiently determinate? (Sufficiently determinate, that is, without any institutional help.) Well, because otherwise sola scriptura would not work.

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  5. @ Anonymous

    Greg, what point about Jesus and the Jews is Fulford missing?

    Well, exactly the one I brought up: His argument is retorsive. All it purports to show is this: If Christianity is true, then Jesus and the Pharisees etc. had knowledge of which scriptures were canonical.

    In other words, it would be useless if, say, a non-Christian came across Feser's argument and raised it against Fulford.

    I say that this is all it purports to show. Because for reasons I stated, I don't think it succeeds. First, the truth of Christianity would only imply that Jesus had knowledge of which scriptures were canonical; the Pharisees etc. may only have been incidentally right about that question. And, for obvious reasons, if Christianity is true, then Jesus could know that even if we could not sort out the similar indeterminacy puzzle, for Jesus, as God, doesn't need to learn which scriptures are the correct scriptures, and indeterminacy poses problems for learning. Jesus just knows.

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  6. As regards the significance of St. Peter's vision, the Haydock commentary puts it this way, citing St. John Chrysostom:

    Ver. [10:]10. There came upon him an ecstasy[1] of mind. This is the true sense by the Greek. I have never yet eaten any unclean thing. This seems to have happened, an. 35 [A.D. 35]. Till then the apostles followed the ceremonies of the law of Moses. It may seem strange that even St. Peter should not know that the ceremonial precepts of the law were to be abolished. It may be answered, that St. Peter and they, were only ignorant of the time, when they were to be laid aside; and so St. Chrysostom says, that the conversion of Cornelius, with all its circumstances, was to convince the Jews, rather than the apostles, that those ceremonies were no longer obligatory. (Witham)

    Remember that if it was a natural development of Jesus’ message, then there would have been no controversy, because everyone already knew that his message would be spread throughout the world, directly to Jews and Gentiles.

    The controversy was with certain Judaizers, i.e., early heretics, not faithful followers of Christ. The Haydock commentary puts it this way, citing St. Epiphanius:

    Ver. [11:]2. Disputed against him. St. Epiphanius makes Cerinthus, who was the next heresiarch to Simon Magus, the author of this dispute. He likewise says it was he, who excited the Jews against St. Paul, (Acts xxi.) and that the first Council of Jerusalem was convened to condemn him. (St. Epiphanius, hæres. 28. chap. ii)

    Those who were scandalized submitted to St. Peter's explanation, however, for, "[w]hen they had heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying: God then hath also to the Gentiles given repentance unto life."

    And the bottom line is that this new development was absolutely one of key doctrinal significance, which would put it under the purview of papal inerrancy.

    You should qualify this statement with "in my view."

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  7. Timothy H Lim (2014) The Formation of the Jewish Canon, Yale University Press.

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  8. @ Anonymous

    Greg, at 3:27 in par 6, you seem to be describing eg The Church of England or The Church of Sweden.

    Well, it's stated very generally:

    But suppose what I don't think is plausibly deniable, that part of what intellectual virtue involves is: proper respect for, faith in, and trust of right authority. Then what seems to be indeterminate might actually not be; for there might be an authority which has a correct interpretation. Then authority in an institutional church (since it's founded on interpreting our trump card) might reveal things necessary for salvation.

    All that says is that trust in authority is necessary to learn about some of what is necessary for salvation. It's consistent with the Catholic position too. It just depends on how you come to know what your trump card is.

    I guess Fulford's next post will address that problem more directly. His retorsive response to the first Jesuit critique is not much help yet.

    Anyway, we 'let sola scriptura be the trump card' by being too scared of hell to cross a direct word from God. There is an existential context to these arguments.

    Well, the way it has been phrased (by you?) before is that the Word of God (not sola scriptura) is the trump card. But Catholics agree with that. The questions are: In what texts is the Word of God revealed, what do they mean, and how do I know what they mean?

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  9. If I may chime in briefly.


    I don't get it either since to have a contradiction one must have a clear case of X and Not X at the same time in the same sense.

    I don't see that here.


    >-- “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6).

    II reply: In Matt 10 Jesus sent the Apostles out to preach that the Kingdom of God was coming and these rules applied but Jesus had not yet died and rose.


    >-- "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24)


    I rely: Here Jesus is just being a Jew and a Rabbi. The Rabbis would to test their disciples resolve "Push them away with the right hand and bring them back with the left". Getting the Samaritan woman to say "Even the dogs get to eat what falls from the Master's table" he was testing her faith and resolve.

    Also Jewish tradition teaches us "A righteous Gentile shall be counted an Israelite before God where as a wicked Jew is worst than a Pagan,:



    >On the other hand, Jesus said:

    -- “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19)

    -- “ … repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem” (Luke 24:47).

    Jewish Messianic doctrine teaches us that the Messiah would bring blessings to the nations. God said to Abraham "Thru you all nations will be blessed".


    I'm out peace.

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  10. Anonymous,

    What is different-- see the Heidelberg Disputation (1518) for this-- is an acute awareness that the thought-worlds of the Bible and of late scholasticism were not the same.

    I've taken a peek at the HD. I don't think I got what you may have thought I ought to have gotten, but I did get these things:

    1. Brother Beyer showed that the possession and wielding of a sharp scalpel does not a competent surgeon make. Whether he intended to show this is not clear.

    2. There seems to have been little follow-through re the first phrase of the opening statement ("Distrusting completely our own wisdom...") in his theses proofs.

    3. The 'thought-world' of Beyer (or anyone else for that matter) is not the 'thought-world' of the Bible. That said, I don't think it even makes sense to talk of the 'thought-world' of the Bible. How does or might the Bible have a 'thought-world'? Certainly, one can speak of the Bible as it is in the 'thought-world' of so-and-so, or of what happens in the 'thought-world' of so-and-so when exposed to this or that of or from the Bible. But that is to talk of another's subjective perception. And the Bible in the 'thought-world' of so-and-so, or what happens in the 'thought-world' of so-and-so when exposed to the Bible, is not quite the same thing as the Bible as it is in and of itself.

    4. As for the theses themselves, some of them are rather, um, intriguing. More than this I'll refrain from saying.

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  11. The Sanhedrin already canonized the Tanakh in the times of Simeon the Just (a contemporary of Alexander).

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  12. Tony:

    Well, that's a funny way to characterize Christ saying "go forth and teach all nations."

    Well, I am a funny guy.

    What part of "all nations" implies that the post-resurrection sending forth was to the Jews alone? Obviously the Matt 10 passage is a different sending. You can't change how things are done, first close to home and then later with a wider audience? That's a pretty flimsy argument.

    That is true. But again, if this was the standard understanding of the early Christians, then why was there so much resistance to it, even within Peter himself? In Acts 11:7-10, Peter refused three times to eat what was considered impure by Jewish law, and he was not convinced by the vision itself. It was only afterwards when he and his companions experienced the Holy Spirit upon them that he changed his mind (Acts 11:15-17). It seems that it took a miracle to get Peter to change his mind, which would only make sense if Peter’s understanding, even post-resurrection, was that the Gospel was for Jews alone.

    And they then (at the Council of Jerusalem) accepted Peter's authority to close the issue, with a definitive "it has been decided". This is the others treating Peter as the final authority present in the flesh.

    Except that it was James who was the “final authority” at the Council of Jerusalem. Peter speaks at Acts 15:7-11, but the matter is not concluded. Next, Paul and Barnabas speak at 15:12, and finally James speaks at 15:13-21, and it is James who says: “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God” (15:19). So, Peter was certainly not the “final authority present in the flesh”. He was just an important participant in the discussion, as was Paul and Barnabas, but it was James who made the final decision.

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  13. Sobieski:

    It may seem strange that even St. Peter should not know that the ceremonial precepts of the law were to be abolished. It may be answered, that St. Peter and they, were only ignorant of the time, when they were to be laid aside

    So, Peter knew that at some point after the death and resurrection of Jesus that the Jewish law would be “laid aside”, but he simply did not know when. Then why, when he had his vision before meeting Cornelius, did he refuse to set aside Jewish law three times when commanded to do so by a heavenly voice? His resistance requires an explanation, and the fact that he still refused to violate Jewish law until he experienced the Holy Spirit descending upon those around him implies that it took a miracle to change his mind, which is not in keeping with someone just waiting for the right time.

    The controversy was with certain Judaizers, i.e., early heretics, not faithful followers of Christ.

    The problem with that is that before Peter changed his mind about preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, it was the standard position of the early Christians that the Gospel was only to be preached to the Jews. That is precisely why it took a set of miracles to change that position towards broader inclusion. So, unless you want to say that all the early Christians, pre-Cornelius, were “early heretics” and “not faithful followers of Christ”, then you have a pretty big problem.

    You should qualify this statement with "in my view."

    In my view, I agree.

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  14. Ben:

    Jewish Messianic doctrine teaches us that the Messiah would bring blessings to the nations. God said to Abraham "Thru you all nations will be blessed".

    Agreed, but Jewish Messianic doctrine also taught that it was by being Jews that they would “bring blessings to the nations”. At no point did the Jewish people believe that they would have to give up the Torah in order to bring about universal salvation. In fact, they viewed Torah practice as central to their eschatology.

    But anyway, I agree that if Jesus had a limited mission to the Jews in mind while he was alive and a global mission to the Gentiles in mind after he died, then there is no logical contradiction.

    I just find it very interesting that prior to Peter’s experience with Cornelius, the early Christian community exclusively preached the Gospel to the Jews, and continued to follow the Law, including the dietary restrictions and Temple sacrifices. That would appear to be the normative understanding of Jesus’ teachings, even after his death and resurrection. It is equally clear that there was a change that occurred when the Gospel was shared with the Gentiles, and this change require a compelling justification in the form of religious miracles, which shows – at least, to me – that the change was not a natural and smooth development, but rather a dramatic break with the earlier understanding of Christianity in Jerusalem, which had far-reaching consequences in the historical unfolding of Christianity.

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  15. As irrelevant as my question may be to the current topic, I wanted to ask what you guys think of direct realism and if it can be defended. This article says that traditional Thomism, in contrast to neo-Thomism and modern philosophy, has always taught direct realism (that there is no gap between the mind and reality, or the subject and object). I wanted to know if there is a way to defend it, If Feser has ever defended it, and if you know of any other great defenders of it. It seems to me that with direct realism, we can solve all these problems posed by radical skeptics about the fact that foundationalism (first principles, PSR) and so forth are indemonstrable.

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  16. Thank you, Glenn, for looking up the HD 1518; I apologize for not being more precise. The theses are cumulative, so if you skip to Theological Thesis 28 on the Two Loves, you will see where Luther was going. If God's love is understood by analogy from the human love based on commonalities, as in 'the philosophers', then of course God can only love sinners after they have first become enough like him for this to become possible. But God is the unique Creator who makes all things from nothing, and his love generally appears in scripture as an aspect of this unceasing creativity, so that sinners are no less lovable for him than the primordial nothingness. It is more consistent with this biblical account of God to see him as loving sinners prior to their eventual perfection in him, than to see him as uncharacteristically regarding them as non-creatures. Hence in the later idiom of Augsburg (1530), justification in Christ is by grace through faith apart from works of the law.

    Some may recognize a Finnish School interest in Byzantine theosis in that summary. And indeed, medievalists interested in a monograph on this should see Tomas Mannermaa, Two Kinds of Love.


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  17. No, Jesuit objection #1 is very much a live issue with respect to the C1. Textual indeterminacy pervades Second Temple Judaism and a fortiori the apostolic age. Wikipedia correctly declares that there is no scholarly consensus on the date at which the Tanakh was fixed. The article on the *development of the canon of the Hebrew Bible* gives a pretty good account of the obstacles to reaching consensus. Those in my world think that Timothy Lim has nailed it as far as anyone can (citation above). But even on his account, Second Temple Jews had rival sectarian collections, none of them were closed, and none were used quite as the Jesuit objection supposes that a canon may be used. Several comments above seem to assume more textual closure than the C1 had.

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  18. >But anyway, I agree that if Jesus had a limited mission to the Jews in mind while he was alive and a global mission to the Gentiles in mind after he died, then there is no logical contradiction.

    That is progress and I will see if I can chime in later to address your other inquiries and concerns.

    Not to toot my horn too much but the study of ancient Jewish Christianity is somewhat of a private hobby of mine. So I might have some knowledge that will help.

    So I might be able to shed light on your issues.

    Peace be with you dguller.

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  19. I've been following this debate closely, in recent days. Re the Jewish canon: the suggestion that the Pharisees may have been only incidentally right about the canon won't wash. One of the the criticisms of the Jewish leaders made by the Apostles in their preaching was that they had ignored what the Scriptures said about Jesus. But if the canon of Scripture was still up in the air, then this reproach would make no sense. At the very least, we must conclude that most (if not all) of the Jewish canon had already been nailed down by the time of Christ's birth.

    In fact, there is abundant evidence that the Jews living in the time of Christ already had a well-defined canon. I would urge readers to have a look at this article by Aaron Brake:
    http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-the-apocrypha-scripture/ .

    I've been reading Part I of Fulford's latest reply at https://calvinistinternational.com/2015/07/27/all-that-the-prophets-have-spoken-a-rejoinder-to-feser-pt-1/ , and it seems to me that he does a very good job of clearing up a number of common Catholic misunderstandings of the Protestant position. However, I also think Scott makes a valid point in reply, when he observes that the answers given by a living guide, while still indeterminate to some degree, can move vital doctrinal questions from one epistemic basket to another: instead of being extremely vague, like Aristotle's views on the immortality of the soul, they become very clear, like Aristotle's views on act and potency. And there certainly are some vital questions for Christians where the witness of Scripture is extremely vague: should we go to church on Saturday, Sunday or whenever we feel like it? Should we baptize infants? Should we refer to the Son as equal to the Father? These are not trivial questions.

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  20. @Vincent Torley:

    Re the Jewish canon: the suggestion that the Pharisees may have been only incidentally right about the canon won't wash.

    Probably you're thinking of Greg's statement: First, the truth of Christianity would only imply that Jesus had knowledge of which scriptures were canonical; the Pharisees etc. may only have been incidentally right about that question.

    But Greg isn't saying the Pharisees did have only incidental knowledge of which Scriptures were canonical; he's pointing out that one specific argument leaves this possibility open and therefore fails in its aim.

    I also doubt that he means "incidentally" to be taken too broadly; I suspect that if the Pharisees arrived at their understanding of the Scriptural canon by unaided natural reason, that would count for the purposes of his reply.

    My own view was, and remains, that the selection of the Scriptural canon was divinely guided and that Jesus's audience simply didn't recognize Him as the Incarnation of the guide. But I still agree with Greg's counterargument and indeed have made a similar one myself.

    I also think Scott makes a valid point in reply, when he observes that the answers given by a living guide, while still indeterminate to some degree, can move vital doctrinal questions from one epistemic basket to another[.]

    I think that was Greg. I agree, though.

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  21. @dguller:

    Where did Brandon say that?

    Good question. He doesn't; my memory was playing me false. (He implies in one post that their meanings are not strictly identical but he doesn't say that explicitly, let alone elaborate.)

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  22. dguller:

    You're conflating three different issues: whether there was an apostolic mission to the Gentiles/nations at all; whether non-Jews who became Christian then had to keep the Torah themselves; and whether Jewish Christians could eat non-kosher foods with Gentile Christians.

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  23. Yes, Greg, we really do need to explore the virtue of reliabilism in religious knowing because it seems to be so commonplace in the practice of all religion everywhere.

    But the peculiarity of this discussion is that some in the C16 responded to credible fear with internalism, and then to arguments about textual indeterminacy with more internalism. Respect for authority is usually a good thing, but is it virtuous to disregard internal knowledge when one is existentially endangered? And while we might think that textual indeterminacy ought to make people trust authority more, is it clear that those who instead rely on resilient internal evidence are not also virtuous? A virtues epistemology might see a vice in the exclusion from either path of those who need it.

    Here, Lutherans part company with the Reformed. Both emphasize that saving faith is the conviction that Christ is saving oneself in particular-- not just the Church in general-- but they differ importantly in how the believer is thought to sustain this. In the Lutheran confessions, the crisis of one's own justification should normally pass with the proclamation of the gospel, after which one normally relies on the external promises given one by Christ-- baptism, communion, and penance-- to sustain one's faith that Christ has indeed died 'pro me.' God made the promises; God does not lie; trust them and be saved.

    Reformed confessions propose an innovation-- saving faith is not just that God promises to save one, but also that he will never permit one to be lost. Forests have fallen for debates about this new requirement of 'reflective faith' (Philip Cary). Among its consequences have been the search for evidence of one's changed self and life that warrant one's assurance that God's promise applies to oneself.

    Interestingly, the 'binding and loosing' in Matthew 16:19 seems open to both internal and external possibilities. If you know what to do, do it; if you don't know what to do, the rabbi can bind you to or loose you from obligations, and God will not blame you for following his rabbi in your perplexity. Analogously, if you are an internalist confident enough in that to face divine judgment, fine, see you there. If you are not so confident, also fine, rely on this appointed external authority and you will be safe. Whether John 20:23 on things already done is offering a retrospective view of the same authority or describing a new authority altogether is debated.

    Yes, the trump card is the Word of God, an identification of the creative Word, one of the five OT faces of God, with the gospel promise in the scriptures.

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  24. Scott:

    You're conflating three different issues: whether there was an apostolic mission to the Gentiles/nations at all; whether non-Jews who became Christian then had to keep the Torah themselves; and whether Jewish Christians could eat non-kosher foods with Gentile Christians.

    Yes, that is true.

    But ultimately, I am trying to show that the early Christians did not treat Peter as the ultimate and infallible authority with regards to the first and third issues that you raised. In fact, it was James who made the ultimate decision. I think that this is important, because it undermines the primacy of Peter as the central religious authority of early Christianity, which is precisely the claim that justifies the papacy. If the earliest Christians did not treat Peter in the very way that supports the papacy, then the papacy is undermined. And if the papacy is undermined, then the Pope cannot be the primary extra-Scriptural source of authority to determine which divergent textual interpretation is the valid one.

    That's all. No biggie.

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  25. @ Vincent

    Re the Jewish canon: the suggestion that the Pharisees may have been only incidentally right about the canon won't wash. One of the the criticisms of the Jewish leaders made by the Apostles in their preaching was that they had ignored what the Scriptures said about Jesus. But if the canon of Scripture was still up in the air, then this reproach would make no sense. At the very least, we must conclude that most (if not all) of the Jewish canon had already been nailed down by the time of Christ's birth.

    Scott's right; I don't mean 'incidentally' in too broad a sense.

    But I am saying that they may have been incidentally right; that is, right nonetheless. So it would be consistent if they were both incidentally right and the canon were not still up in the air. (God may have guided them to this point, say.)

    The Apostle's reproach would make sense even if they were only incidentally right about the canon. For they took this to be the canon, and the Apostle's are pointing out that that points to Jesus as the messiah.

    You're right that I should tighten up what I mean by 'incidentally right'. There might be a way for them have to be right and warranted about the canon, to some extent, possessing (as they did) some knowledge of Jewish history and tradition. But I don't know enough about this to give anything approximating an account.

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  26. The Apostle's reproach would make sense even if they were only incidentally right about the canon. For they took this to be the canon, and the Apostle's are pointing out that that points to Jesus as the messiah.

    Sorry - I am terribly embarrassed about my apostrophe usage in this paragraph.

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  27. dguller:

    [U]ltimately, I am trying to show that the early Christians did not treat Peter as the ultimate and infallible authority with regards to the first and third issues that you raised. In fact, it was James who made the ultimate decision.

    Then you're still conflating the issues. At the Jerusalem Council described in Acts 15, the matter before them was the teaching, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved," not whether there was a mission to the Gentiles at all. (When Peter speaks, he treats that matter as settled and agreed upon: "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.") Disagreeing with some of the Pharisees, he expresses the opinion that circumcising Gentile converts and making them observe the Torah would place an undue burden on them. That's the second issue, and since it's pretty unambiguously one of practice rather than doctrine, it's outside the scope of papal infallibility.

    The third issue, likewise, is one of practice rather than doctrine, and that's the basic issue under discussion in Acts 11. ("Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?")

    Some of the participants might seem to think the first issue is at stake as well: "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance unto life." I disagree; I'd say the issue was whether Gentiles could be saved as Gentiles. But even if that's wrong, it's nevertheless Peter's word that does carry the day in that exchange; James is nowhere even mentioned. So to whatever extent a doctrinal issue might have been involved, there's no counterexample anyway.

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  28. @ Anonymous

    Analogously, if you are an internalist confident enough in that to face divine judgment, fine, see you there. If you are not so confident, also fine, rely on this appointed external authority and you will be safe. Whether John 20:23 on things already done is offering a retrospective view of the same authority or describing a new authority altogether is debated.

    Well, I'll leave it to people with more knowledge of scripture than I have to debate whether this is a plausible reading of Matthew 16:19.

    The immediate problem I see though: As I was glossing Fulford's response, I suggested that I do not find convincing his argument against the standard variety-of-Protestants objection to sola scriptura. But just as two Protestants might interpret the Bible in different ways, people relying on an external authority might too. Indeed, they might reach conclusions from otherwise-indeterminate parts of the Bible, which the internalist epistemology will have to miss.

    If anything revealed by the externalist approach turns out to be, say, necessary for salvation, then the internalist approach is simply missing something; and the internalist shows himself to be closed to a potential avenue of learning what is the content of the Word of God?

    In other words: If taking both approaches tended toward Christian unity and common understanding of the Word of God, I might find it more plausible to say liberally, Take whichever one works for you. But the antecedent seems not true to me.

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  29. Anonymous,

    The theses are cumulative, so if you skip to Theological Thesis 28 on the Two Loves, you will see where Luther was going.

    Okay, I'm following.

    If God's love is understood by analogy from the human love based on commonalities, as in 'the philosophers', then of course God can only love sinners after they have first become enough like him for this to become possible.

    If one analogizes from the secondary aspect of human love, i.e., from a surface survey or 'phenomenological' view of the effects of the imperfect/defective operation of human love, then the 'then' clause makes sense.

    If, however, one analogizes from the primary aspect of human love, i.e., from human love before it goes awry (due to a weakened, defective or disordered intellect), then the 'then' clause does not make sense.

    But God is the unique Creator who makes all things from nothing, and his love generally appears in scripture as an aspect of this unceasing creativity, so that sinners are no less lovable for him than the primordial nothingness.

    Agreed.

    It is more consistent with this biblical account of God to see him as loving sinners prior to their eventual perfection in him, than to see him as uncharacteristically regarding them as non-creatures.

    Agreed. (God does not hate sinners. Rather, He loves them that they may be well.)

    Hence in the later idiom of Augsburg (1530), justification in Christ is by grace through faith apart from works of the law.

    I'm not clear on how this gets squared with Rev. 3:20, which does not say, "If anyone hears My voice, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me," but, rather, "If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

    There's something else I'm not clear on. The confutation to Article VII of the AC begins as follows: "The seventh article of the Confession, wherein it is affirmed that the Church is the congregation of saints, cannot be admitted without prejudice to faith if by this definition the wicked and sinners be separated from the Church." (Emphasis added.)

    If it is more consistent to see God as loving sinners prior to their eventual perfection in him, why should the wicked and sinners be separated from the Church? The confutation seems to be making a good point.

    And yet, the defense, given in response to the confutation, seems rather adamant about cleansing the church in order that it may be Holy.

    Certainly, there isn't anything unusual about wanting the church to be Holy. And there is a fine line requiring a delicate approach, to be sure.

    But I'm not so sure a flat out insistence that the wicked and sinners be separated from the church, or effectively saying, "Yes, Christ did come to heal the sick; but we'll have no wicked men or sinners in our church," qualifies as the best possible delicate approach. I certainly hope it isn't.

    Some may recognize a Finnish School interest in Byzantine theosis in that summary. And indeed, medievalists interested in a monograph on this should see Tomas Mannermaa, Two Kinds of Love.

    I'll look for Mannermaa's monograph.

    (There's been a number of comments posted while typing up my response, and which I have not read, so likely I'm behind the curve here. I hope it doesn't show too much.)

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  30. Scott:

    At the Jerusalem Council described in Acts 15, the matter before them was the teaching, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved," not whether there was a mission to the Gentiles at all.

    True.

    Disagreeing with some of the Pharisees, he expresses the opinion that circumcising Gentile converts and making them observe the Torah would place an undue burden on them.

    True again, but it is interesting that his argument includes the claim that following the Law was “a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear” (Acts 15:10), which would be news to practicing Jews everywhere. But that’s neither here nor there.

    That's the second issue, and since it's pretty unambiguously one of practice rather than doctrine, it's outside the scope of papal infallibility.

    Is it not a belief that salvation does not depend upon following the Law? It is only if that belief is true that the need for circumcision becomes unnecessary. And that would place the matter squarely under the scope of papal infallibility.

    But even if that's wrong, it's nevertheless Peter's word that does carry the day in that exchange; James is nowhere even mentioned. So to whatever extent a doctrinal issue might have been involved, there's no counterexample anyway.

    Well, James is mentioned at Acts 15:13-21, and it is ultimately his decision that is authoritative at 15:19, including the decision that Gentile converts must still obey Noahide law. If Peter’s word was treated as authoritative, then the matter would have ended with his opinion at 15:7-11, but the discussion continues with additional arguments from Barnabas and Paul, and finally the matter is concluded with James. Just because James agreed with Peter does not mean that the ultimate authority was from Peter. If a king agreed with a counselor, then it is still the king who has authority.

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  31. Greg, my understanding is that 'binding and loosing' is rabbinical language with a fairly determinate meaning. That does not preclude a certain well-known inference.

    The 'sola scriptura ---> too many churches' argument is not a philosophical argument but an historical argument about the causation of thousands of events. The explanans is a series of fission events with dates, documentary sources, etc; the explanandum is that each fissile church split for the single reason that it taught 'sola scriptura.' Assuming thsy the events occurred, we test the cause against counterfactual cases-- eg similar churches that did not believe in sola scriptura and did not split. But I have never seen the actual historical case to support the claim, and neither in this instance did Fulford. So far as I can see, the splitting churches are almost never splitting over what is required for salvation, so sola scriptura is an unlikely cause if fission. Fulford had nothing to answer.

    But more later.

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  32. dguller:

    Ah, so now we're back to the second issue after all, are we? ;-)

    Well, I still think the issues before the council were matters of practice rather than doctrine. But even if I'm wrong, I also don't see anything in Peter's remarks/questions in Acts 15 to indicate that he was speaking infallibly or expected anyone else to think he was. And even if I'm wrong about that too, I also don't think there's anything about the exercise of that power that prevents a Pope from consulting other Church officials and accepting their views when he finds it appropriate to do so. In fact, that's what Popes generally do; infallibility isn't omniscience.

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  33. Scott:

    Well, I still think the issues before the council were matters of practice rather than doctrine.

    Perhaps it might be clearer if you explain what the difference is between doctrine and practice? To me, doctrine refers to beliefs and practice refers to actions, but they are often, if not always, interrelated. In this case, whether Jewish law in its totality is applicable to Gentile converts to Christianity is a practical matter, but underlying the practice is the belief that salvation does not require Jewish law, but only faith in Jesus Christ. The adoption of the practical change necessarily involves a doctrinal change, as well.

    But even if I'm wrong, I also don't see anything in Peter's remarks/questions in Acts 15 to indicate that he was speaking infallibly or expected anyone else to think he was.

    How would you know if Peter was ever speaking infallibly then within the New Testament?

    And even if I'm wrong about that too, I also don't think there's anything about the exercise of that power that prevents a Pope from consulting other Church officials and accepting their views when he finds it appropriate to do so. In fact, that's what Popes generally do; infallibility isn't omniscience.

    I agree with you there. My question has always been with how other early Christians treated Peter in the NT. Did they treat him the way that Popes have been treated throughout history? If they did, then the Petrine origin of the papacy is supported. But if they did not, then the papacy cannot be justified on the basis of a Petrine foundation. According to the texts that I’ve reviewed, no-one seems to have treated Peter under any circumstances as an infallible source of doctrinal authority. Not only did he have to justify his position with miraculous experiences, but his claims were never adopted solely due to his authority as Christ’s vicar on earth. But maybe others can demonstrate the falsity of this claim of mine.

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  34. dguller:

    Did they treat him the way that Popes have been treated throughout history?

    In Acts 15, sure. The decision recorded there is presented as infallible at the level of the council ("It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us") rather strictly that of the Pope alone. But even though there was said to be "much debate," the only part of that debate that is explicitly reported is Peter's own statement. That's what I'd expect from a conciliar decision in which Peter's opinion carried the greatest weight.

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  35. @ Anonymous

    The 'sola scriptura ---> too many churches' argument is not a philosophical argument but an historical argument about the causation of thousands of events. The explanans is a series of fission events with dates, documentary sources, etc; the explanandum is that each fissile church split for the single reason that it taught 'sola scriptura.' Assuming thsy the events occurred, we test the cause against counterfactual cases-- eg similar churches that did not believe in sola scriptura and did not split. But I have never seen the actual historical case to support the claim, and neither in this instance did Fulford. So far as I can see, the splitting churches are almost never splitting over what is required for salvation, so sola scriptura is an unlikely cause if fission. Fulford had nothing to answer.

    I don't concede the above, but I amended the argument in my original response to Fulford's reply. That is, even if the points of disagreement do not have to do with what is necessary to salvation, you still have disunification and sometimes violent conflict - and, in this case, we are conceding that Christ's church would be becoming disunified over non-essential points of doctrine. A disunification of Christ's church over non-essential points of doctrine seems to undermine Fulford's appeal to the intellectual virtue of the reformers leading those successive breaks - for if the differences were non-essential, and were in fact a matter of what was not perspicuous, then an intellectually virtuous person would not break up Christ's church over them. But if the reformers were not intellectually virtuous, then on Fulford's terms they are not reliable interpreters of scripture.

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  36. dguller,

    The Catholic position is that the Pope must ratify a Council for it to be authoritive. What we see in Acts is just that, Peter ratifying the Council.

    In fact, in many councils the Pope wasn't even present, but sent representatives. He doesn't even need to do that though.

    Christi pax.

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  37. It seems to me that sola Scriptura treats the Bible as a first principle. That is, it is a premise they base conclusions on. This doctrine seems historical contingent, that it only makes seems in a deeply Christian culture.

    Interestingly enough, modern philosophers do the same thing: Descartes for example takes motion as a first principle, and Newton's Laws assume motion a priori. if they would just ask what motion is per se, then they would see the reason for act/potency.

    Modern people then seem to take the conclusions of the past for granted. They don't ask enough questions. They aren't skeptical enough.

    Christi pax.

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  38. Vincent Torley,

    "One of the the criticisms of the Jewish leaders made by the Apostles in their preaching was that they had ignored what the Scriptures said about Jesus. But if the canon of Scripture was still up in the air, then this reproach would make no sense."

    Or Jesus and the Apostles could have been debating Jews from various sects on their own terms. Christ corrects the Sadducees' error (who held Torah alone to be canonical) on resurrection by citing Exodus 3:6 when it would've been much easier to correct them by appealing to a Pharisaic canon which has more explicit support for resurrection. When he condemns the Pharisees, He no longer limits Himself to just the Torah and uses the Pharisaic canon. And Paul refers to Greek canon the Bereans and Thesalonians would have used as Scripture when they look to it to confirm (or reject) his message. Christ and Paul are showing that regardless of the canon held, every OT scripture speaks to Christ and are exposing the infidelity of those Jews to what they have when they reject that message.

    "At the very least, we must conclude that most (if not all) of the Jewish canon had already been nailed down by the time of Christ's birth."

    Not really - see the 3-part series starting at http://www.thesacredpage.com/2006/03/loose-canons-development-of-old.html examining the fluidity, openness, and development of the canon in 2nd temple judaism.

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  39. I think the Protestant rejection of the contemplative life is part of the reason why modern people don't even bother to examine their assumptions: they rejected such things. I don't want to say that they completely rejected meditation, but Protestant Churches notoriously lack meditation techniques like the Rosary and the Jesus Prayer.

    Christi pax.

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  40. Nate,

    "Jesus claimed the Pharisees should understand he was the Messiah on the basis of their own reading. He repeated asked people with disbelief, "Have you not read that ... ?" Unless you want to argue that Christ was senselessly chastising people for something they could not be responsible for, it seems likely Jesus expected his audience to know what it taught without help."

    Okay so apostolic teaching and the NT are superfluous and unnecessary right? We only need the OT? Why is the story of philip and the eunuch included in the NT according to you?

    " ... the holy spirit guiding it into all truth and such ... "
    - The holy spirit is given to all believers, not simply the magisterium."

    The HS is given to all believers. Not all believers are given apostolic authority.

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  41. To my mind, Greg, both Feser's dig and Fulford's defense are historical claims without historical warrants. They do neither man credit. The New York Times should not have called a certain senator "the dumbest member of Congress." But neither should the senator have called a news conference to deny the charge.

    Historians have chronicled many splitting, emerging, and merging churches out there. Shouldn't virtuous truth-seekers read these accounts before making judgments about what these churches did?

    The original split came from the papal excommunication of Luther. It emphatically did not come from a Luther eager to try out a new ecclesiology. After all, he didn't have one. And when the bull of excommunication threw the Church in northern Europe into disarray, it made a kind of pope of him, forcing him to improvise a pattern that was never meant to last centuries. Thus what the pope meant as a penalty instead created an unhelpful precedent for organizing a church outside of the Apostolic Constitutions. Surely that was a rash move? But then, a pope south of the Alps advised mainly by his fellow Italians could not have understood the situation in Germany nor the consequences of what he was doing. He caused the original split-- more than his predecessor caused 1054?-- but his moral responsibility for it is not easy to ascertain fairly.

    A fortiori, should we judge The Chapel's 1960s ministry to hippies disillusioned with the drug culture, or The Vineyard's organization of young pentecostals in the 1980s without considering some facts about what they did and why? And are the Lutherans and Methodists who merged and merged and merged more virtuous than those fissiparous Presbyterians who split and split and split? We might like to think so, but all these stories have many sides.

    The essence of Derpistan (or worse) is thinking that so much about the Other is obvious that the facts do not need to be consulted because they could not change one's Bayesian priors anyway. We should be more virtuous than that.

    But yes, there are lots of Protestant churches...

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  42. For some people, writing things down in the only practical way of communicating inerrant of infallible truths. Just telling them is far more complicated and involves far more problems than writing it down and publishing it.

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  43. Sorry, above should have read:

    "Some people claim to believe that writing down infallible and inerrant truths is more practical than plainly speaking them."

    Because speaking is impractical compared to writing.

    Unfortunately, nobody told Jesus this or the Prophets, who's preferred method of communicating inerrant and infallible truths was by preaching them.

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  44. Unfortunately, nobody told Jesus this or the Prophets, who's preferred method of communicating inerrant and infallible truths was by preaching them.

    Well, how many of the people they were communicating with could write?

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  45. The Pharisee canon was solidly set by the time of Simeon the Just. The various heresies, including the Saducees and Hellenists had alternate canons, but clearly the gospel verses are addressing the Pharisees.

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  46. Glenn, you're right.

    You'll see this if you compare Lutheran and Reformed eucharistic doctrines. Lutherans will insist that even the unworthy crush the body of Christ with their teeth when they receive Communion, because the presence of Christ in it is an objective promise of salvation from God to each communicant that is in no way contingent on her worthiness. Conversely, those Reformed who follow Calvin will affirm that only the elect do, by the mediation of the Holy Spirit, receive the body of Christ in communion as a sign of their predestined salvation in Christ; the reprobate receive only the bread and wine, the significans but not the significanda. Thus a Lutheran always knows that he receives the body and blood of Christ in communion; a Calvinist's confidence about this depends on his assurance that he is among the elect. And in contemporary practice, most Reformed churches follow Zwingli, not Calvin, in seeing communion as a memorial of Christ's death that stimulates gratitude in the believer.

    Another way of framing this is in terms of the extent of Christ's saving work on the cross. To Lutheran systematicians, who call this 'Universal Objective Justification', Christ's death justified every person who has ever or will ever exist, but only those graced with faith in him receive the benefits of being justified, and even they may possibly lose those benefits if they lose the faith that he has saved them. (In C16-17 Anglicans this view is called Hypothetical Universalism.) Conversely, the classical Reformed view, called Limited Atonement or Definite Atonement, is that Christ's death justified the elect but not the reprobate and that none of the elect will be lost. (Some C16-17 Anglicans, the 'high and dry', inclined to this view.) Both, in different ways, accommodate St Augustine's view that the pilgrim Church is a mixture of the saved and the lost.

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  47. When Jesus uttered the words in St Mark xiv 62, whose canon was he quoting to the Sanhedrin?

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  48. Cletus van Damme, you may like John Goldingay's new book, Do We Really Need The New Testament? Of course we do, and he knows it. But he is quite right to insist that much that we believe we can only find in the NT is in the OT.

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  49. Etzelnik,

    "The Pharisee canon was solidly set by the time of Simeon the Just."

    Can you tell me why the midrash records debates concerning the status of Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs in the 2nd century?

    "The various heresies, including the Saducees and Hellenists had alternate canons, but clearly the gospel verses are addressing the Pharisees."

    Right so Judaism did not have a closed uniform canon at the time of Christ. There is no scholarly consensus on the settlement of the Hebrew canon and quite a wide range of scholarly debate on the subject.

    Can you tell me what justifies your characterization of the Sadducees and Hellenists (and I presume you would add the Essenes and Qumran communities as well) as heretics while the Pharisees are the orthodox ones?

    Further, Jesus and Paul both address these groups, and we don't see them calling them heretics or alternatively praising the Pharisees - we see them engaging each sect on their own grounds, rather than just dismissing their canon.

    Further, if Pharisees are the "orthodox" ones, and they followed binding oral torah and tradition, while the Sadducees who were the "heretics" rejected binding unwritten tradition, then that would seem to concede Judaism did not endorse the principle of SS and favored the non-SS view by your own lights.

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  50. Anonymous,

    Who argues the OT does not point to Christ? The early church fathers were all about a Christological hermeneutic. That's not news. What's news is arguing in effect we don't need the NT or it's just a nice-to-have because "it seems likely Jesus expected his audience to know what [the OT] taught without help" and that the Apostles and Christ were some type of OT SS'ists.

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  51. Hi Cletus van Damme,

    Thanks for your reply. I must admit I'm a little perplexed, now, after reading the article by Michael Barber at http://www.thesacredpage.com/2006/03/loose-canons-development-of-old.html which you linked to. It seems to completely contradict the conclusions of the article by Aaron Brake at http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-the-apocrypha-scripture/ which I cited, and which referred to both Philo and Josephus as recognizing only the Hebrew canon of 22 (or 24) books, which according to Brake is identical to the Protestant Old Testament. Brake relies heavily on the work of F. F. Bruce ("The Canon of Scripture," Downers Grove, IL; Intervarsity, 1988), while the article you cited relies on a recent collection of essays called "The Canon Debate." Who's right? Search me.

    Regarding the early Church, your article by Michael Barber makes a strong case that the deuterocanonicals were accepted by the vast majority of Church Fathers in the first four centuries, although I think you can cite statement by St. Jerome which go both ways. Brake, interestingly, concentrates on the Dark Ages and Middle Ages and bases his case on the writings of Pope Gregory the Great (590-604), the "Glossa Ordinaria" (the main medieval Biblical commentary) and Cardinal Cajetan. At any rate, it seems that the larger canon was far from settled after the Councils of Carthage in 393 and 417.

    Greg,

    Thanks very much for your helpful clarifications. Scott's comments were also helpful.

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  52. The original split came from the papal excommunication of Luther. It emphatically did not come from a Luther eager to try out a new ecclesiology.

    This doesn't make any sense. If Luther accepted the Church's ecclesiology, then he would have submitted and recanted when he was excommunicated.

    The only reason that excommunication didn't phase him is that... he rejected the Church's ecclesiology, so being excommunicated by it was no big deal.

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  53. @Scott:

    In Acts 15, sure. The decision recorded there is presented as infallible at the level of the council ("It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us") rather strictly that of the Pope alone. But even though there was said to be "much debate," the only part of that debate that is explicitly reported is Peter's own statement. That's what I'd expect from a conciliar decision in which Peter's opinion carried the greatest weight.

    First, you keep ignoring the fact that it was James’ decision that brought the matter to a close, and not Peter’s.

    Second, you also ignore James’ part in the debate at Acts 15:13-21. At the very least, it falsifies your claim that “the only part of that debate that is explicitly reported is Peter’s own statement”. James’ statement is certainly recorded, as well.

    Third, how do you know that “Peter’s opinion carried the greatest weight”? It seems that James’ opinion carried the greatest weight, because his opinion ended the discussion, which is what you would expect from the primary authority figure in the council.

    Fourth, I am still interested in examples in the NT of Peter demonstrating his infallible papal authority. In other words, can you point to any instance in the NT where (a) there was a controversy of some kind involving doctrine, (b) Peter gave his opinion on which side of the controversy was correct, and (c) those who heard his opinion immediately submitted to his authority without further questioning? In both Acts 10-11 and 15, I can clearly see (a) and (b), but (c) is utterly absent. And without (c), I don’t see how you can justify the position that the early Christians treated Peter as Catholics treat the Pope in terms of infallible authority in matters of doctrine.

    @Daniel D D:

    The Catholic position is that the Pope must ratify a Council for it to be authoritive. What we see in Acts is just that, Peter ratifying the Council.

    Where exactly did Peter ratify the council? Peter gave his opinion at 15:7-11. The matter did not end with Peter’s opinion. There was a silence while those present listened to Barnabas and Paul speak at 15:12, and then James gave his opinion at 15:13-21, including his final ruling on the matter at 15:19-20: “It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God, but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood.”

    Again, it seems that James is the one treated as being the authoritative figure at the council, and not Peter. Peter is simply treated as a participant in the discussion.

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  54. Ap, neither the popes of that age nor the nobility of the Holy Roman Empire, among other places, understood ecclesiology as you or I do today. The world of the Venetian Interdict saw the papacy differently.

    And five centuries of research have corrected much that everyone on all sides 'knew' at that time. Surely we are more right to think that the form of ordination is the imposition of hands than they were who thought that it was the conveyance of signs of office?

    Meanwhile, there is no extant ecclesiological proposal from Luther, and of course Lutheran churches have Catholic order throughout Scandinavia. Only in states where bishops abandoned their sees did Lutherans install 'Superintendents' similar to bishops as then understood. Scholarly biographers of Luther (eg Heiko Obermann) record his anfechtung after the bull of excommunication. Luther was a New Testament scholar who never planned to start a new church.

    So back to my point. To say that there are lots of Protestant churches but only one that is Roman Catholic is simply tautology. One could equally argue that there is only one serene Orthodox Church of patriarchs in fraternal harmony, and a number of squabbling Latin sects too insecure in their faith to stop bickering childishly about authority. With some profound warrant, that is just what the Orthodox do say.

    And although sola scriptura makes the gospel as criterial for ecclesiology as for anything else, it has not seemed to require any change from the C4 Church order that we find in the Apostolic Constitutions (Quasten's date: circa 380). After five centuries, we should surely have seen some some ecclesiological innovation in say, the Church of Finland, by now. But just the reverse has been occurring: apart from the Reformed, catholic order is better followed as it is better understood in the mother churches of the Reformation, as also, of course, in the Roman Catholic Church.

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  55. Cletus, please forgive John Goldingay, an OT professor, his provocative title. Give it a moment's reflection, and I'm sure you'll understand ;-)

    Some on the thread must be retrojecting the misinformed stereotype of C16 sola scriptura back into Second Temple Judaism. How odd.

    There was plainly a synergy of scripture-writing and messianic hope. We see it, not just in late texts later canonized like Daniel (esp chapter 7), but in the vast trove of Old Testament pseudoepigrapha edited by Charles worth and now by Bauckham. But we can also see that the apostles did not use OT and other texts in the ways that our discussion of sola scriptura assumed. They were Jews using Jewish hermeneutics of their time that we are only beginning to understand well.

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  56. I'm having to consider the possibility that Jesuit Objection #1 was irrelevant. If the apostles recognized Jesus as the Son of Man on the basis of just a few writings-- eg Daniel, Psalm 110, parts of Isaiah-- at a time when there was no medieval concept of canon, then the gospel can be known without the ability to define such a canon. All that their inference assumed about those texts was that they were God-inspired and promised God's deliverance of his people.

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  57. Anonymous,

    Lutherans will insist that even...

    Another way of framing this is...


    A most helpful synopsis. Thank you.

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  58. dguller,

    as Catholics treat the Pope in terms of infallible authority in matters of doctrine

    You keep talking about this, but after having read several of your comments several times, I can't figure out what you mean by this. Your three criteria, for instance [(a) there was a controversy of some kind involving doctrine, (b) Peter gave his opinion on which side of the controversy was correct, and (c) those who heard his opinion immediately submitted to his authority without further questioning?], don't describe any standard cases I know of what Catholics would consider exercises of papal authority meeting the criteria for infallibility. For one thing, the Pope is not ever the only authority, and the authority of the bishops, like the authority of the apostles other than Peter, is not dependent on that of the Pope; for another, infallibility doesn't imply that the Pope's decision is the wisest or best or even always the only possible good decision -- it just guarantees, on the occasions when the conditions are right, that the papal teaching is orthodox and morally permissible.

    As a side note, your interpretation of the Acts passage seems to overlook the evidence of Paul in Galatians that it was James and those who followed him who caused the problem in the first place.

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  59. Jesuit Objection #2 seems in that same light to misframe what reading the scriptures as gospel actually is. Peter and Caiaphas both knew how apocalyptic Jews read Psalm 110 and Daniel 7:13. But Peter got it right, not by having a methodology that better met textual indeterminacy--both knew the meaning of Jesus's midrash-- but by seeing Jesus in the texts. Epistemologically, gospel reading is an act, not of computation, but of recognition.

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  60. Anonymous,

    Both of your comments, @8:51 and @8:22, miss the fact that the point in dispute is not what one can infer in interpretation but the authority with which one can do so.

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  61. >My question has always been with how other early Christians treated Peter in the NT. Did they treat him the way that Popes have been treated throughout history?

    dguller I hate to burst your bubble but Catholics threw out history even today in my experience more often then not disrespect the Pope.

    Historically some Catholics have bashed the Pope harder then the most militant Orangeman.

    Even these days I sit with my jaw dropped watching certain Jackasses(not that I will name names) bash Pope Francis while simultaneously praising the late St John Paul II and longing for his reign. Yet I remember distinctly these same individuals used to rant against St John Paul just as harshly.

    Resistance to Papal actions goes back to Peter and happens threw out history.

    That is just life man............

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  62. In the same way that I would not expect an embryo to have a neo-cortex, I would not expect St Peter in the NT to look much like a pope.

    In the same way that I would not deny that a neo-cortex developed from an embryo just because the embryo did not have one, I would not assume that the papacy of, say the C4, could not have evolved from some petrine ministry.

    In matters of church order, only developmental arguments are in touch with much reality.

    Sola scriptura-- reading scripture as gospel and gospel as criterial-- does not rule out the possibility of a papacy that ratifies subordinate doctrinal developments in the wider Church.

    So why should we care whether St Peter wore a triple tiara?

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  63. Thank you, Brandon, for your alertness. In a thread this long, not everything can be discussed reasonably in every comment.

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  64. Brandon:

    For one thing, the Pope is not ever the only authority, and the authority of the bishops, like the authority of the apostles other than Peter, is not dependent on that of the Pope;

    I never thought that he was the only authority. But my question to you is whether the Pope’s doctrinal opinions are ever treated as infallible by Catholics simply by virtue of his authority as Pope. In other words, is there ever a time when the Pope’s ex cathedra opinions are treated as definitive and final, being immune from any further abrogation at a later date, simply on the basis of the authority of the Pope himself? If so, then this cannot be justified by Peter in the early Church. If not, then my arguments are largely irrelevant.

    for another, infallibility doesn't imply that the Pope's decision is the wisest or best or even always the only possible good decision -- it just guarantees, on the occasions when the conditions are right, that the papal teaching is orthodox and morally permissible.

    I thought the whole point of Feser’s argument with proponents of sola scriptura is that if a religious text is fundamentally indeterminate, then there must be an authoritative and living source outside of that text to determine what the correct interpretation is. If the authority in question is simply able to determine what is “orthodox and morally permissible”, but necessarily “the wisest or best or even always the only possible good” interpretation of a text, then doesn’t that leave open the inevitability of ongoing indeterminacy to some degree?

    Now, someone gave the example earlier (somewhere in the thread) when JPII determined that, even in the absence of clear Scriptural evidence, the official position of the Catholic Church is that women will never be ordained as priests. I took that to be an example of the Pope making an official declaration solely based upon his authority as Pope, because the texts were indeterminate on this matter, which was then binding upon Catholics everywhere. I then found that I could not find any Scriptural basis in the NT to justify the Pope adopting this role, especially if such a role is justified by Peter’s authority in the early Church. But if you are saying that the Pope cannot determine the correct interpretation of a religious text solely upon his authority as Christ’s vicar on earth that is then binding upon Catholics, then my arguments about the relative authority of James and Peter are irrelevant.

    As a side note, your interpretation of the Acts passage seems to overlook the evidence of Paul in Galatians that it was James and those who followed him who caused the problem in the first place.

    And I suppose that from Luther’s perspective, it was the Pope and those who followed him that “caused the problem in the first place”. Galatians is written from Paul’s point of view, according to his priorities and understanding. A more interesting question is where Paul acquired the authority to criticize the leaders of the Jerusalem church, given that they were the ones with religious authority in early Christianity, probably because they learned from Jesus first hand, and not simply through a vision or second-hand through others. Even Paul himself was deferential towards the authority of James.

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  65. Ben:

    Resistance to Papal actions goes back to Peter and happens threw out history.

    But then where do you get the support for the position that Peter was the origin of the papacy at all? If he was treated by the earliest followers of Jesus as simply an important Christian figure, but not a central authority at all, then how does this not undermine the primacy of the papacy? Either the earliest followers of Jesus were correct in how they treated Peter, or they were wrong. If they were right, then Peter is not a central authority at all, but just another important disciple of Jesus. If they were wrong, then they continued to be befuddled and confused about Jesus’ mission, both during his lifetime and even after his resurrection! In which case, how can they be reliable at all?

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  66. Well, I was about to post in reply to dguller, but I see that Brandon got there first. I had intended to say that dguller appeared to be looking for an example in which Peter said X and everybody else on the relevant Council just said Okay, we disagree, but he's the Pope so that's that.

    In general the primacy of Peter specifically and of the Bishop of Rome generally is well attested in both the NT and the apostolic literature. Demanding that this evidence be somehow confirmed by examples of the sort dguller seems to want bespeaks a distorted version of how the papacy and its infallibility are supposed to work. It's not as though the Pope doesn't have to make a case for his views, or nobody can ever argue with him.

    As for Acts 15 itself, dguller, please note that James isn't presented as holding the authoritative, controlling opinion to which everyone else submits but as expressing the view of the Council: "It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us," as the letter says in passing along the Council's decision. (And I didn't ignore his summary; it just wasn't part of the debate proper.)

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  67. Jesuit Objection #3? My 9:14 comment obliquely addresses it: pace Fulford, apocalyptic Jews did not overcome the textual indeterminacy of prophecy by methodically computing their way into the future. Rather, they evolved through a long series of recognitions-- of Jesus, of the Suffering Servant, of the risen Lord, of the descent of the Holy Spirit, of the manifestation of Christ to the Gentiles, etc into the Body of Christ. And each recognition cut off some possibilities previously open-- the Messiah might be someone else; the Messiah cannot suffer; the Word has not begun to restore the Creation; God is no longer among us; God is saving only the Jews; the Temple remains the center of God's presence on earth; etc. With no canon of the sort we have, and a very unmethodical 'midrashic' way of reading scripture, they backed into the future by living the implications recognizing their reality as fulfillment of God's promise.

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  68. In other words, is there ever a time when the Pope’s ex cathedra opinions are treated as definitive and final, being immune from any further abrogation at a later date, simply on the basis of the authority of the Pope himself?

    Well, to clarify first: (1) It's irrelevant how it's treated; and (2) opinions are not the issue, since it is actual teaching alone that is significant; and (3) the authority of the Pope is the authority of the Church itself, wielded by the Pope under circumstances. But yes, some things are authoritatively defined on the grounds that the Pope taught them, although this is generally recognized as unusual -- even Vatican I in defining papal infallibility makes clear that the normal operation of it is in cooperating with other bishops in synods and councils. But even if we set aside the fact that you seem to be focusing on unusual operations, your description is quite clearly true of Peter; Peter's sermon in Acts 2, for instance, is a definitive expression of the faith, immune from any further further abrogation at a later date, on the basis of the authority of Peter.

    This is part of the problem with your argument: infallible authority works exactly like any other authority, but you keep arguing as if it didn't. That Peter taught with authority is quite clear in Acts, so the only question is whether, in fact, that teaching authority was infallibly definitive as to Christian doctrine. But how are you going to identify any teachings of Peter post-Pentecost that are not definitive of Christian doctrine?

    If the authority in question is simply able to determine what is “orthodox and morally permissible”, but necessarily “the wisest or best or even always the only possible good” interpretation of a text, then doesn’t that leave open the inevitability of ongoing indeterminacy to some degree?

    You are assuming (1) that there is only one correct interpretation, which is inconsistent with the Catholic view of Scripture; and (2) that the interpretation of Scripture is exhaustible, which is also inconsistent with the Catholic view of Scripture. No matter how much the Popes or the bishops together or the consensus of the Fathers determine about the interpretation of Scripture, there is more that can be determined. But this is not at issue; any indeterminacy that comes up that is of any importance can be clarified and made determinate, at least sufficiently to resolve whatever problem has come up. The issue at question is indeterminacy on a given where there is assumed to be no ongoing authority to clarify it.

    And I suppose that from Luther’s perspective, it was the Pope and those who followed him that “caused the problem in the first place”. Galatians is written from Paul’s point of view, according to his priorities and understanding.

    Your argument is absolutely baffling because Acts is also Pauline and written according to Paul's priorities and understanding. But you miss the point entirely. If James is the one who is, even if unintentionally, the one who caused the chaos in the first place, then it is entirely relevant to the interpretation of what is going on in the council: James has to be the one to resolve the problem, because the problem is arising because of his authority. And thus it is entirely possible to read Acts 15 as James resolving his own mess by explicitly deferring to Peter's teaching and creating his solution to it -- to which all of the apostles agree.

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  69. That should be "Acts is also Pauline, although not written by Paul himself". There is no question that the author of Acts is a Pauline partisan.

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  70. Some calm readers will already have seen where this is going. On one hand, an epistemology of the recognition of Christ in inspired texts is well-suited to both the continuity of tradition and the priority in that tradition of the gospel. On the other hand, recognition entails its own sort of authority just because cuttings-off are involved. Indeed, both the conciliar and the papal patterns of authority acknowledge prior recognitions in the Church.

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  71. Even good things must end. I will tie loose ends here tomorrow evening.

    All my friends are getting Feser books for Christmas this year.

    Those who have engaged my thoughts here at length-- Eric, Greg, Glenn, Daniel-- have been stimulating. Edward Feser and Ap posted interesting shorter replies. A few who did not comment on them--Scott, Brandon, dguller-- have been consistently interesting to watch in the thread. Thanks to you all.

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  72. Scott:

    In general the primacy of Peter specifically and of the Bishop of Rome generally is well attested in both the NT and the apostolic literature. Demanding that this evidence be somehow confirmed by examples of the sort dguller seems to want bespeaks a distorted version of how the papacy and its infallibility are supposed to work. It's not as though the Pope doesn't have to make a case for his views, or nobody can ever argue with him.

    First, Peter was not treated as primary in the NT, which means that the earliest Christians did not understand Jesus’ statements about Peter’s importance as meaning that he was the primary religious figure in the nascent movement.

    Second, how does the Pope make the case for his position if the Scriptures themselves are indeterminate regarding the matter at hand? Does he bring philosophical argumentation to the issue? If so, then he must know that philosophical arguments are not typically demonstrative, and thus are open to differing interpretations themselves, making them inconclusive in an important sense. Does he bring extra-Scriptural historical and archeological information into the equation? If so, then where does he get the authority to interpret historical texts in a determinate fashion? Or, does he present an interpretation that coheres with the other relevant texts, as well as extra-Scriptural evidence and philosophical reasoning, and then just stamp that interpretation as divinely sanctioned?

    As for Acts 15 itself, dguller, please note that James isn't presented as holding the authoritative, controlling opinion to which everyone else submits but as expressing the view of the Council: "It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us," as the letter says in passing along the Council's decision. (And I didn't ignore his summary; it just wasn't part of the debate proper.)

    First, James did not provide a “summary”, which “wasn’t part of the debate proper”. Not only did he add a Scriptural passage to justify his position, he even included the demand that Gentile Christians follow the Noahide laws, a condition that was not mentioned anywhere else in the discussion at Acts 15. So, I think he certainly participated in the debate itself, and in an authoritative fashion, at the very least, because the demand for compliance with Noahide was included in the subsequent letter sent to Antioch (Acts 15:29).

    Second, I think that you are right that a case can be made that the ultimate position expressed in the letter was the consensus of the apostles and presbyters present at the debate, especially as described in the letter itself. However, I also think that a case can be made that James was the ultimate authority when he described his “judgment” (Acts 15:19), and the debate subsequently ended. Perhaps the consensus was waiting to hear James’ “judgment”, and then they would coalesce around him.

    Furthermore, I think additional support for this position can be demonstrated when we consider that although Paul never submitted to Peter’s authority at any point in the NT, even going so far as to criticize him “to his face” (Galatians 2:11), he did submit to the demands of James and the traditionalist Jewish Christians in Jerusalem to participate in the purification rites at the Temple (Acts 21:26), even though he had earlier argued that the Torah was no longer binding upon him at all (Ephesians 2:14-16, Galatians 5:1-6). Again, it seems that James and his brethren had more authority than Peter did in the early Church, which even Paul recognized.

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  73. dguller:

    Why would the "demand that Gentile Christians follow the Noahide laws" require separate discussion? Did you expect a group of first-century Jews to disagree amongst themselves about that?

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  74. Again, it seems that James and his brethren had more authority than Peter did in the early Church, which even Paul recognized.

    All that seems to follow from the points you note is that James had real and genuine authority in Jerusalem, which no one is denying. I'm not convinced that Paul 'submits to the authority of James' in the purification practice, as opposed to simply being convinced that it was important for the Jewish community, but Paul never suggests that Peter is in any way lacking in authority: even the time he rebukes him to his face, his rebuke is explicitly that Peter is not acting in accordance with Peter's own teaching; he consistently treats Peter as at least one of the three pillars of the Church -- Peter, James, and John -- from whom he needs to get explicit recognition, and it is entirely possible to read his discussion in Galatians as suggesting that the one whose decision really mattered was Peter: all the emphasis is put on his getting Peter to agree with him.

    As a side note that is not especially relevant to any of this, it's interesting that Eusebius claims that the church in Jerusalem was Jewish-Christian in the tradition of James until the time of Emperor Hadrian; the same time seems to see the collapse of Jerusalem's ecclesiastical importance, which was only ever after recognized as honorary.

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  75. Scott:

    Actually, I was wrong. The rules that James set out were not Noahide laws, other than the prohibition of sexual immorality. The prohibition against both idolatry and the consumption of strangled animals and blood are something else entirely. The former would make sense, given Judeo-Christian monotheism, but the latter is from Leviticus 3:17, 7:26-27, and elsewhere in the Old Testament. And the problem here is twofold. First, Gentiles were supposed to be free from Jewish law, and this prohibition is certainly from Jewish Law. Second, it seems to prohibit the Eucharist in which the blood of Christ is drank by Christians.

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  76. dguller:

    Actually, I was wrong.

    I think you were right (that they were at least a variant or a "proto" version of the Noahide laws), but we've wandered rather far afield and I don't care to argue the point.

    As for the Eucharist and the consumption of blood, why did you think Jesus's Jewish followers regarded His words in John 6 as a "hard saying"? (But that's pretty far afield too.)

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  77. Brandon:

    It's irrelevant how it's treated

    It is irrelevant whether Christians actually treat the Pope’s opinions as infallible simply on the basis of his authority as Pope? If Christians never did so, then why ever think that one has to do so at all?

    But even if we set aside the fact that you seem to be focusing on unusual operations, your description is quite clearly true of Peter; Peter's sermon in Acts 2, for instance, is a definitive expression of the faith, immune from any further further abrogation at a later date, on the basis of the authority of Peter.

    I agree that at Acts 2, Peter’s words were treated as authoritative, and he did not have to justify them. But I have cited other instances where Peter was not treated as an authority, but rather had to justify his position with arguments. In those examples, it is not Peter but his arguments that were authoritative. For example, when Peter returned to Jerusalem after the Cornelius incident, “the circumcision party criticized him” (11:2), and Peter then described his vision and the experience of the Holy Spirit descending upon the Gentiles upon hearing the Gospel (11:5-17). It was only after his arguments were provided that “they fell silent” (11:18). Again, there seem to be incidents where Peter’s authority was questioned, and he had to justify his position with arguments, which involved miracles to support them.

    Now, you may say that none of this is relevant, because it does not matter how the earliest Christians actually treated him, but I think that the behavior of the early Christians ought to be normative for later Christians, especially since they were closest to Jesus and his teachings. Otherwise, why refer to them at all, if they are so unreliable indicators of proper Christian belief and practice?

    any indeterminacy that comes up that is of any importance can be clarified and made determinate, at least sufficiently to resolve whatever problem has come up. The issue at question is indeterminacy on a given where there is assumed to be no ongoing authority to clarify it.

    Thank you for the clarification. That’s helpful.

    If James is the one who is, even if unintentionally, the one who caused the chaos in the first place, then it is entirely relevant to the interpretation of what is going on in the council: James has to be the one to resolve the problem, because the problem is arising because of his authority.

    But you are assuming that it is James who caused the conflict. All of Jesus’ teachings within the Synoptic Gospels could be understood within the purview of a variant of normative Second Temple Judaism, which seems to be how James and his followers understood him at first. It was only on the basis of later events that the original understanding had to be revised in order to incorporate the new information, particularly how Jesus’ message was to be shared with Gentiles and the necessity of obedience to Jewish law. Originally, the Christians were still practicing as Jews, including going to the Temple (Acts 3:1). It was Stephen who first questioned the necessity of the Temple and Jewish law in general, which resulted in his martyrdom, and it was Peter who, with a great deal of initial resistance, taught that the Gospel could be preached directly to the Gentiles and that one could abandon the dietary laws and eat with Gentiles in table fellowship (even though that was actually a practice of Jesus himself, which begs the question of why Peter was so resistant to begin with!). According to my reading, it was James who was most faithful to Jesus’ message, and it was others who complicated matters by later developments.

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  78. Furthermore, there seems to be this continuous downplaying of the degree of authority and esteem that James held within the early Church. He had so much authority that even Peter felt compelled to submit to him. For example, in Galatians, “certain men came from James, [Peter] was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself” (2:12). Not only Peter, but “the rest of the Jews” and “even Barnabas” changed their behavior (2:13). This en masse defection from Paul to James infuriated Paul, and clearly demonstrates the degree of respect and authority that James alone seemed to be possess.

    In addition, as I mentioned above, Paul submitted to James and his followers by undergoing the purification rites at the Temple at Acts 21:26. Remember that he said that Peter stood “condemned” for disregarding the truth out of fear of James and his followers at Galatians 2:11, and yet here is Paul abandoning his own teachings to avoid the condemnation of the Jerusalem church, which is precisely the same error as Peter in Antioch. And remember that Paul was called upon to perform the rites at the Temple precisely to alleviate the concerns of the “thousands” of Jewish Christians in Jerusalem who were “zealous for the law” (Acts 21:20), and who were greatly upset by Paul’s teaching that “the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses” (Acts 21:21). So, he had to demonstrate that he himself as a Jewish Christian would submit to the law himself, which would serve to undermine his own interpretation of Jesus’ message. And what is remarkable is that he actually did it! Why would he do so unless he felt overwhelmed by the authority of the Jerusalem church under James?

    You can say that he did so out of fear for his life, but that is belied by his behavior at the Temple afterwards. When he was identified at the Temple, “they seized Paul and dragged him out of the Temple” (21:30), and “they were seeking to kill him” (21:31) by “beating Paul” (21:32). Despite “the violence of the crowd” (21:35), he still wanted to “speak to the people” (21:39). He was clearly no coward who was fearful for his personal safety.

    I'm not convinced that Paul 'submits to the authority of James' in the purification practice, as opposed to simply being convinced that it was important for the Jewish community

    Paul has a funny way of showing that he cares about what is “important for the Jewish community”. After all, he was so violently rejected by the Jewish community at the time precisely because they perceived his message as completely undermining their core beliefs and practices. So, why would he suddenly care about not offending their feelings, especially when he immediately delivers a speech that further enrages the crowd.

    he consistently treats Peter as at least one of the three pillars of the Church -- Peter, James, and John -- from whom he needs to get explicit recognition

    Paul has a funny way of showing his respect for the “three pillars of the Church”, as well. In fact, at Galatians 2:9, he says that “James and Cephas and John” only “seemed to be pillars”.

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  79. As a side note that is not especially relevant to any of this, it's interesting that Eusebius claims that the church in Jerusalem was Jewish-Christian in the tradition of James until the time of Emperor Hadrian; the same time seems to see the collapse of Jerusalem's ecclesiastical importance, which was only ever after recognized as honorary.

    That is interesting. I’ve often wondered how Christianity would have developed if James had not been killed in the 60’s, and the Jews not rebelled against Rome in 70 and 135, which resulted in the scattering of the Jewish Christian community and the loss of its central leadership, leaving an opening for Paul’s more Hellenistic and Gentile Christianity to flourish. Since Hadrian ruled the Roman Empire from 117 to 138, it is more likely that the power and influence of the Jewish Christianity centered in Jerusalem was already decimated in the 60’s and 70’s, decades before Hadrian’s rule.

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  80. But I have cited other instances where Peter was not treated as an authority, but rather had to justify his position with arguments.

    This is not how authority works! And even if there were kinds of authority that worked this way, they would be irrelevant; there has never been an exercise of papal authority that has not been justified with arguments. Your attempt to take miracles as a counterexample to authority is also odd given that the consistent treatment of miracles through the Bible is as witnesses to authority, not signs of lack of authority.

    But you are assuming that it is James who caused the conflict.

    No, I specifically pointed out that we have actual evidence from Paul, who was a direct participant, that the conflict arose because of people sent from James. No assumption about it; Paul explicitly says it. It doesn't imply that James himself deliberately instigated it in any way; it does provide evidence that his authority was the cause of the problem, and that an adequate solution to the problem thus needed to come from James. This evidence can't simply be ignored in interpretation, regardless of how one factors it in. My point is that the evidence does not narrow the interpretation down the way you suggest; it leaves completely open a wide variety of interpretations.

    Furthermore, there seems to be this continuous downplaying of the degree of authority and esteem that James held within the early Church. He had so much authority that even Peter felt compelled to submit to him.

    (1) You are playing somewhat fast and loose with the notion of submission; we don't know that "Peter felt compelled to submit to James"; we don't know his motivation at all. Indeed, one way -- not the only way, but one way -- to read Paul's description of the situation was that Peter was embarrassed at not acting like a Jew. (2) There is no downplaying of the degree of authority and esteem that James held within the early Church; there is just nothing whatsoever about it that entails the downplaying of the authority of Peter that you claim.

    Since Hadrian ruled the Roman Empire from 117 to 138, it is more likely that the power and influence of the Jewish Christianity centered in Jerusalem was already decimated in the 60’s and 70’s, decades before Hadrian’s rule.

    It's possible, but I'm not so sure; for one, the tradition is that the family of Jesus (descendants of James, Simeon, and Jude) were actively involved in the affairs of the see until Hadrian's rule (the Bar Kokhba revolt occurred, according to the old lists, when Judas of Jerusalem was bishop of Jerusalem, and he is the last member of the family, assuming the tradition is more or less reliable, that we have good evidence for having existed). That connection is bound to have counted for something. In addition, ecclesial authority tends not to decline and fade in lockstep with political authority. (Rome is actually a good example than this, since for Rome the loss of political power has very often been accompanied by an expansion of ecclesial influence.) While Jerusalem proper was a scattered population amidst ruins after the 79s, with Hadrian there was technically not even a Jerusalem anymore, and the bishops are all officially bishops of Aelia Capitolina, and clearly suffragans of Antioch. (It's difficult to say for certain, but under the Jewish-Christian dispensation, the bishops of Jerusalem seem to have had their authority independently. This was definitely not the case later, and the dividing point appears to be the loss of the Jewish-Christian line.)

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  81. Brandon:

    there has never been an exercise of papal authority that has not been justified with arguments

    But again, is it the Pope’s authority or his arguments that determines acceptance of his position? If the former, then why the arguments? If the latter, then why the Pope?

    Your attempt to take miracles as a counterexample to authority is also odd given that the consistent treatment of miracles through the Bible is as witnesses to authority, not signs of lack of authority.

    That’s partially true. The Bible also describes false prophets who cause miracles. For example, Ezekial 13 describes “foolish prophets” with “false vision” and “lying divination”. And Matthew 24:24 describes “false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray”. So, miracles alone are neither necessary nor sufficient to manifest divine authority. It is also intriguing to note that the Talmudic sages explicitly ignored miracles altogether as demonstrating the correctness of a position, especially in the famous debate between Rabbi Eliezer, who caused numerous miracles to justify his position, but was rebuffed by Rabbi Joshua.

    No, I specifically pointed out that we have actual evidence from Paul, who was a direct participant, that the conflict arose because of people sent from James. No assumption about it; Paul explicitly says it.

    Yes, but Paul is not a neutral party. We do not have records from James, Peter, or any other disciple to detail their perspectives on the matter. Even Acts is written from the Pauline perspective, according to you, and thus we have a highly biased record. But even with that record that is skewed towards the Pauline position, there are still enough hints to show that both Peter and Paul felt compelled by James’ authority to deviate from their core beliefs by changing their behavior, which I still believe shows that James was the main authority in early Christianity. That doesn’t mean that Peter and Paul were not also authorities, but only that their authority was secondary to James. I suppose that his authority was no well-known that even the Pauline version could not ignore it, or else be dismissed as a fantastical concoction.

    My point is that the evidence does not narrow the interpretation down the way you suggest; it leaves completely open a wide variety of interpretations.

    I think it does narrow things down towards my position that James was the clear leader and authority in Jerusalem, and that his authority extended to Antioch and Asia Minor by virtue of the fact that the presence of his representatives in those regions compelled a change in people’s behavior, and that even Peter and Paul changed their behavior to violate their core beliefs in the presence of his authority.

    I don’t see any record that James went against his core beliefs and practices in the face of the authority of Peter or Paul. He certainly never accepted Paul’s view that the Jewish law was no longer obligatory for Jewish Christians, although he was open to the idea that most Jewish laws would not be obligatory upon Gentile Christians and that the Gospel could be directly shared with Gentiles. None of which put him outside the overall framework of Second Temple Judaism. Perhaps a case can be made that James loosened the dietary restrictions such that sharing meals with Gentiles was permissible, on the basis of Peter’s miraculous experiences with Cornelius, but again, that would be in keeping with Jesus’ own conduct when he violated orthodoxy by sharing meals with outsiders and outcasts. It certainly was not in keeping with the radical theological views of Paul.

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  82. we don't know that "Peter felt compelled to submit to James"; we don't know his motivation at all. Indeed, one way -- not the only way, but one way -- to read Paul's description of the situation was that Peter was embarrassed at not acting like a Jew.

    So, Peter violated a core religious belief that he acquired by a divine vision and the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, which he strenuous argued for in conflict with certain members of the Jerusalem church, because he “was embarrassed at not acting like a Jew”? That’s certainly possible, but given Peter’s bravery and courage in facing terrifying situations, I don’t think that it is likely. It’s more likely that Peter was embarrassed, but in front of James’ representatives over abandoning Jewish practices that he knew the Jerusalem church would disapprove of. So, his embarrassment was not in front of any Jews, because there were surely other Jews in Antioch that objected to his behavior, whose opinions he disregarded as unimportant, but rather to those who were officially associated with James. Again, James’ authority seems higher than Peter’s and Paul’s here.

    There is no downplaying of the degree of authority and esteem that James held within the early Church; there is just nothing whatsoever about it that entails the downplaying of the authority of Peter that you claim.

    I think that I’ve provided evidence that there is good reason to suspect that James was considered a higher authority than Peter in the early church: Peter was embarrassed by his behavior in the presence of representatives of James (Galatians 2:12-13); when Peter escaped from prison, he insisted that “James and the brothers” be informed (Acts 12:17), but note that only James is specifically mentioned, indicating his importance to Peter; and at the Jerusalem Council, the discussion ends with James’ pronouncement at Acts 15:19-20. I am unaware of any evidence where James deferred to Peter, but I could be wrong, of course.

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  83. But again, is it the Pope’s authority or his arguments that determines acceptance of his position?

    This is an obviously false dilemma; argument is a standard way by which authority is exercised. Not all arguments are exercises of authority; but authority is often exercised by arguing for a case. And on the opposite side, it's quite obvious that acceptance itself doesn't distinguish the two: If A, who is clearly an expert, gives a really brilliant argument for conclusion C, when people accept it, they don't differentiate acceptance of the expertise from acceptance of the argument; they are one and the same.

    Yes, but Paul is not a neutral party.

    But this is irrelevant; your entire argument consists of an interpretation of texts written from what is universally recognized as a broadly Pauline point of view. And the evidence is there; it can be interpreted in more than one way, but it is nonsense to try to pretend it isn't there, or that it can't factor into interpretation in various ways.

    I don’t see any record that James went against his core beliefs and practices in the face of the authority of Peter or Paul.

    Unless one interprets Acts 15 as a case of James deferring to Peter, which, as I've pointed out is one of the ways it can be interpreted. The argument, taken as giving a definitive conclusion rather than simply exploring a possibility, is circular; one of the things that is unclear is whether there are actually any cases of anyone "going against core beliefs and practices" solely due to another apostle's authority in a way that would allow one to order them in terms of authority. All your suggestions involve speculative interpretation about motives. It is also defective in that we have almost no information about James's actual career; the interest of the author of Acts is entirely directed toward Peter and Paul, so you are actually arguing from silence. The evidence simply does not narrow down the interpretations in the way you say. And we see this with how completely mired in speculative interpretation of motivations the whole argument is getting.

    It is in any case problematic in another way: all of the apostles have authority in their own right, and 'going against core beliefs and practices' is not a standard test case for authority -- if A has authority over B, A may nonetheless defer to B in his own domain, or on a matter in which B is an expert, or on a matter in which B has a good point. Your argument is built on what seems to be a crazy view of authority, in which it consists entirely of forcing people to do things regardless of what reasons they may have for not doing them. This is not authority.

    And we can see the problems immediately if we abstract from the apostles and talk about, say, Senators: if Senator A goes along with Senator B, even despite misgivings, does that mean that Senator B has more authority? It clearly does not. You need specific markers that it is done because of greater authority.

    I think that I’ve provided evidence that there is good reason to suspect that James was considered a higher authority than Peter in the early church

    Again, the only evidence you've provided is evidence showing that James was an important authority, which no one denies. The evidence is simply not precise enough to support the very precise claims you are making about comparative authority; it's not even the right kind.

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  84. @Cletus. Sorry for the delay. I just saw your comment now. I also think that there is a misunderstanding. I am, above all, a Talmudist. There's not a Christian bone inside me.

    "Can you tell me why the midrash records debates concerning the status of Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs in the 2nd century?"

    The debate is not regarding the canonicity of the above works, but rather whether they are subject to a rabbinic decree that one who directly touches a Torah scroll must wash his hands before touching tithes.

    "Can you tell me what justifies your characterization of the Sadducees and Hellenists (and I presume you would add the Essenes and Qumran communities as well) as heretics while the Pharisees are the orthodox ones?"

    The Saducees rejected the Oral Law, and in the process turned the Torah into a vague and shifty document that you can literally read anything into.

    The Hellenists as well changed the law in order to be more like the gentiles, much like the Reform and Conservative movements of today.

    "Further, Jesus and Paul both address these groups, and we don't see them calling them heretics or alternatively praising the Pharisees - we see them engaging each sect on their own grounds, rather than just dismissing their canon."

    That's because they just as heretical as the rest.

    "Further, if Pharisees are the "orthodox" ones, and they followed binding oral torah and tradition, while the Sadducees who were the "heretics" rejected binding unwritten tradition, then that would seem to concede Judaism did not endorse the principle of SS and favored the non-SS view by your own lights."

    Precisely.

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  85. Brandon:

    it's quite obvious that acceptance itself doesn't distinguish the two: If A, who is clearly an expert, gives a really brilliant argument for conclusion C, when people accept it, they don't differentiate acceptance of the expertise from acceptance of the argument; they are one and the same.

    But the expertise is demonstrated by the argument. If an expert makes a claim that fails under scrutiny, then their expertise is questioned. Again, it is the justification of the claim by sound argumentation that confers expertise, and not the other way around. So, under your example, if an expert gives “a really brilliant argument”, then it is the argument that is compelling, and the argument justifies both the conclusion and one’s faith in the expert’s expertise. In other words, one accepts the conclusion, because of the argument and not the authority. Perhaps psychologically people confuse the two, but they are certainly not “one and the same”.

    But this is irrelevant; your entire argument consists of an interpretation of texts written from what is universally recognized as a broadly Pauline point of view. And the evidence is there; it can be interpreted in more than one way, but it is nonsense to try to pretend it isn't there, or that it can't factor into interpretation in various ways.

    I agree that “the evidence is there”, but it is fascinating that even from within the Pauline point of view, which certainly had a vested interest in downplaying the authority of the traditional Jewish understanding of early Christianity, because that viewpoint contradicted his own, the power and authority of James and his followers could not be suppressed. It is fair to wonder if James’ authority was even more dominant than the Pauline texts let on!

    one of the things that is unclear is whether there are actually any cases of anyone "going against core beliefs and practices" solely due to another apostle's authority in a way that would allow one to order them in terms of authority.

    What I have in mind is the following. X has clearly expressed their belief that P and their actions are in accordance with P. Y has clearly expressed their belief that Q, where Q entails not-P, and their actions are in accordance with Q. Y (or Y’s representatives) find X acting according to P, and in their presence X changes their behavior to be in keeping with Q. What exactly was it about Y (or Y’s representatives) that caused X to change their behavior in a way that contradicted P? I think the only way to understand it was that Y had authority and that X recognized that authority and subsequently changed their behavior. You are correct that Peter was probably embarrassed when James’ representatives came to Antioch and found him living as a Gentile, but that embarrassment makes no sense unless Peter already believed that James had the authority to compel a certain behavior from Peter. Otherwise, why care at all?

    And I agree that there are other possible interpretations. It is a historical text, after all, but you haven’t provided one that necessarily excludes the possibility that Peter’s behavior changed in the face of James’ authority.

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  86. It is also defective in that we have almost no information about James's actual career; the interest of the author of Acts is entirely directed toward Peter and Paul, so you are actually arguing from silence.

    But we do have information about James’ career. According to the NT, we know that he was the leader of the Jerusalem church, and represented the Jewish traditionalist wing of early Christianity, which continued to follow the precepts of Jewish law. After all, his role in Acts is to consistently demand that the Jewish Christians continue to follow traditional Jewish law, and that Gentile Christians only had to follow some of the Jewish laws. In addition, according to Josephus, James was executed in the 60’s, which means that he was allowed to continue to practice his Christianity in Jerusalem for decades. If he was not obedient to the Torah during that time, then he would have been driven out, as Stephen and Paul were, especially during the heightened nationalist tension during first century Judea. So, I think that there is a great deal that can be inferred about James by the texts that we have. It is not “silence”.

    all of the apostles have authority in their own right, and 'going against core beliefs and practices' is not a standard test case for authority -- if A has authority over B, A may nonetheless defer to B in his own domain, or on a matter in which B is an expert, or on a matter in which B has a good point. Your argument is built on what seems to be a crazy view of authority, in which it consists entirely of forcing people to do things regardless of what reasons they may have for not doing them. This is not authority.

    I understand all that, but if you have a scenario where there are several instances where B has deferred to A’s authority, but A has never deferred to B’s authority, then can one really make the case that B is a higher authority than A? Wouldn’t you, at least, suspect that maybe A is the higher authority?

    And we can see the problems immediately if we abstract from the apostles and talk about, say, Senators: if Senator A goes along with Senator B, even despite misgivings, does that mean that Senator B has more authority? It clearly does not. You need specific markers that it is done because of greater authority.

    What about if dozens of Senators agreed to support a bill, but when a representative from Senator X arrived, all of the Senators, except one suddenly dropped their support of the bill? How do you account for that without saying that Senator X was recognized to have authority regarding whether the bill should be supported or not? That’s the analogous scenario here.

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  87. dguller:

    [I]t is the justification of the claim by sound argumentation that confers expertise, and not the other way around.

    This is confusing. Perhaps you mean that the justification of a claim by sound argumentation is evidence of expertise? If so, then (as so often) the causal dependence is in one direction epistemologically and the other ontologically: in the order of knowing, (we know) the speaker has expertise because he offers a sound argument, but in the order of being, (it is the case that) the speaker offers a sound argument because he has expertise. And in the latter case, the argument is just an expression or manifestation of the expertise, so they're "one and the same" in the sense I think Brandon intends.

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  88. You also seem to be conflating infallibility with expertise. Neither confers the other.

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  89. Moreover, deference to authority is another issue still. If a Pope defers to an authority when speaking ex cathedra in defining a matter of faith or morals intended to bind the entire Church, then he's deferring infallibly.

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  90. But we do have information about James’ career.

    I didn't say that we knew nothing about James. None of things that you note are relevant to the question at hand; and, what is more, they are all things that we only know insofar as his life intersects with the lives of Peter and Paul on certain issues that were of considerable importance to Peter and Paul. You argued that we know of no cases where James deferred to Peter; this is an argument from silence, plain and simple.

    What about if dozens of Senators agreed to support a bill, but when a representative from Senator X arrived, all of the Senators, except one suddenly dropped their support of the bill? How do you account for that without saying that Senator X was recognized to have authority regarding whether the bill should be supported or not? That’s the analogous scenario here.

    It's very, very obvious that this tells us nothing about Senator X's authority; again, Senator X may have had better arguments, or been owed favors, or provided a convenient face-saving excuse for switching, or any of a very long list of things.

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  91. Etzelnik,

    "I am, above all, a Talmudist. There's not a Christian bone inside me."

    Thanks for the clarification. Given that, I have a few questions.
    Christ criticizes the Pharisees for their man-made tradition. Do you and other Jews (both contemporary and historically) who follow the Talmud and held to Oral Torah agree with Jesus' criticism that certain (but not all) teachings they claimed were binding tradition were in fact not? Or is it generally considered Christ's criticism was entirely erroneous and heretical? Given that those groups who did follow Oral Torah and later Talmud disagreed on what exactly constituted binding oral tradition as well as its level of authority, I imagine many might have then and also now agreed with Jesus' criticism of the Pharisees correct?

    Do Talmudist Jews view the destruction of the Temple which then led to the codification of the mishnah and Talmud along with the associated marginalization of 2nd temple sects that rejected Oral Torah (sadducees, essenes) as providential and confirmation of divine approval of Oral Torah or does that not factor in to the perspective much?

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  92. @ E. Seigner,


    The actual version of indulgences was as practised by Johann Tetzel. Luther's debaters saw no problem with that. The wider population of Germany was in uproar because Germans were made to finance the Pope's new cathedral via sales of indulgences. Luther's debaters saw no problem with that. Luther's debaters saw only doctrinal problems with Luther, not moral problems with themselves.


    This is revisionist nonsense.

    And pray tell what is more scandalous: the pope turning a blind eye to a scandalous abuse of indulgences in order to finance the construction and completion of a Church erected to the glorification of God, or people who find the Church financing the erection of a Church to the glory of God scandalous?

    Now charity can be either primarily spiritual works (such as setting aside time to pray for someone) or corporeal (such as almsgiving, providing food, shelter, comfort, clothing, assistance with physical chores or burdens of labour, etc.). Such works a redemptive and win divine favour when done for the right reasons or at least sufficient reasons (e.g. out of love of God and neighbor or more imperfectly out of fear of hellfire or divine punishment/disfavour). The sale of indulgences allowed people to give some corporeal work (almsgiving) to the work of the Church which is meritorious (and why Luther new theology of sola fidei could not stand it). It also implied and rested on contrition or guilt for sin and a distinction between eternal and temporal punishments due to sin/iniquity (something else Luther could not personally tolerate as these again implied guilt and the need for penitence and contrition). To be sure, in a certain sense almsgiving is the weakest substitute for charitable works though, of course, everyone can see that good money can be put to very good use and help provide sustenance and maintenance for the Church and the poor and the helpless even outside the Church. It can also be used to build new Churches or repair old ones.

    Now to be scandalized at brazen abuse of the indulgence system is legitimate to a point; however, such people likewise can and do cause scandal themselves when they imply that charitable works or providing to maintain the corporeal needs of the Church and facilitate her mission is itself somehow an abuse or scandalous or even displeasing to God. Of course it is not. Nor does it matter if those collecting the goods abuse or otherwise use those goods badly or poor, e.g. inefficiently - this does not take away from the merit of the one who gives and their intention.

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  93. Begging pardon from our host and all other participants! I just wanted to mention that another thing that Teddy said is that Shelby's wife survived the attack. According to Teddy, it was Shelby who had unknowingly administered a fatal dosage of insulin to his wife, and not Sammy. It was Shelby's wife who could not grasp the realities of his condition, who was confused and lost. Sammy, Teddy said, was single and an actual fraud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_I-4WHGbeI (relevant part of Teddy's speech begins at the 1:26 mark)

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