Saturday, July 18, 2015

Fulford on sola scriptura, Part I


At The Calvinist International, Andrew Fulford replies to my recent post on Feyerabend, empiricism, and sola scriptura.  You’ll recall that the early Jesuit critique of sola scriptura cited by Feyerabend maintains that (a) scripture alone can never tell you what counts as scripture, (b) scripture alone cannot tell you how to interpret scripture, and (c) scripture alone cannot give us a procedure for deriving consequences from scripture, applying it to new circumstances, etc.  Fulford says that these objections “essentially rely on a caricature of the teaching,” and offers responses to each point.  Let’s consider them in order.

In response to point (a), Fulford cites some arguments made by 17th century Protestant theologian Francis Turretin which, Fulford claims, “[explain] how Christians can rationally come to know that the Bible is divinely authoritative.”  The interested reader is advised to consult Fulford’s post to read in their entirety the passages from Turretin that Fulford quotes. Here I’ll quote what seem to be the most relevant lines.  First, Turretin says:

The Bible proves itself divine, not only authoritatively and in the manner of an artless argument or testimony, when it proclaims itself God-inspired... The Bible also proves itself divine ratiocinatively by an argument artfully made… from the marks which God has impressed upon the Scriptures and which furnish indubitable proof of divinity. For as the works of God exhibit visibly to our eyes by certain marks the incomparable excellence of the artificer himself and as the sun makes himself known by his own light, so he wished in the Bible… to send forth different rays of divinity by which he might make himself known…

[B]efore faith can believe, it must have the divinity of the witness to whom faith is to be given clearly established and certain true marks apprehended in it, otherwise it cannot believe.  For where suitable reasons of believing anyone are lacking, the testimony of such a witness cannot be worthy of credence.

And what exactly are these reasons Turretin says make scripture worthy of credence?  Fulford adds:

Turretin provides extensive arguments from historical evidence for the reliability of the apostles and Moses as historical witnesses; this established, when they testify to miraculous confirmation of their message, and then claim to be divinely inspired, they are credible witnesses to this divine confirmation of their claim to inspiration. They thus provide a rational basis for belief in the divine authority of their own writings.

End quote.  The overall argument, then, seems to be this:

1. Historical evidence shows the reliability of the writings of Moses, the apostles, etc. 

2. Among the things which Moses, the apostles, etc. report are miracles.

3. So these miracle reports are reliable.

4. These writings also claim to be divinely inspired, a claim which would be supported if backed by miracles. 

5. So the claim to divine inspiration is reliable.

6. Faith in testimony as divinely inspired is well grounded when supported by evidence of the sort in question.

7. So faith in these writings as divinely inspired is in fact well grounded.

Now, there are grave problems with this considered as a response to point (a) of the Jesuit critique.  First and foremost is that it simply is not really even a prima facie response at all, because it changes the subject.  The subject is the question of exactly which writings are to be counted as part of scripture; what Turretin and Fulford are addressing instead is the different question of what defense can be given of the divine inspiration of certain specific writings typically claimed to be scriptural

Hence, suppose we ask questions like: Are what Catholics call the deuteroncanonicals (and Protestants call the Apocrypha) to be counted as part of the Bible?  Should purportedly non-canonical books like the Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of Paul and Thecla, etc. also have been included?  Should purportedly canonical works like Esther, the Epistle of James, and the Apocalypse have been left out?  Is the Quran divinely inspired?  How about the Book of Mormon?

The Turretin-Fulford argument doesn’t answer such questions at all, as is evidenced by the fact that both Protestants and Catholics could accept the specific points Turretin makes in the passages cited and still disagree about the deuterocanonicals.  Mormons could also agree with the Turretin-Fulford argument, as could advocates of books like Thomas and the Acts of Paul and Thecla.  They would just add that there are yet other books that Catholics and Protestants should accept.  Even Muslims could accept the Turretin-Fulford argument with qualifications.  They could say that Moses, the apostles, etc. really were divinely inspired and their words backed by miracles, and that the writings Christians regard as scriptural reflect these facts.  They would just add that those writings include errors mixed in with the historical facts they report, and that the Quran corrects the record where these errors have crept in. 

Suppose there’s a room full of piles of what is purportedly U.S. currency, some of which is genuine and some of which is counterfeit.  Suppose different people take bills from different piles and stuff them into bags.  Each person claims his own bag of cash contains only genuine money and that other people’s bags contain either all counterfeit money or a mixture of genuine and counterfeit money.  Suppose some particular person claims to be able to show that his bag is the one that contains only genuine cash.  He supports his claim by taking a few bills from the bag and arguing that they show certain marks of genuineness.  Obviously he will not thereby have shown what he claims to have shown.  He will at best have proven the genuineness only of those particular bills, and will not have shown either that his own bag contains only genuine bills or that other people’s bags are wholly or partly counterfeit. 

The Turretin-Fulford argument has the same problem.  At best it would show that certain specific writings (such as those associated with Moses and the apostles) are divinely inspired.  It would not tell us whether or not other books are scriptural.  And, crucially, it certainly would not show that scripture itself tells us which books are scriptural.  Yet that was the issue that point (a) of the Jesuit critique of sola scriptura cited by Feyerabend was addressing: Exactly which writings count as scripture, and how could scripture alone tell us?  The Turretin-Fulford argument doesn’t even address this problem with sola scriptura, much less solve it.

So the Turretin-Fulford argument would fail as a response to point (a) even if it sufficed to establish the scriptural status of the specific writings it discusses.  But another problem is that it does not suffice to establish even that.  Suppose a skeptic agreed that the books traditionally associated with Moses and the apostles contained solid evidence about various historical events, including even miraculous events, and about the teachings of the prophets who performed the miracles.  Such a skeptic could still ask, in a way that is perfectly consistent with that acknowledgement: How does that show that those books are themselves divinely inspired, infallible, etc. in their entirety

Suppose Christ appeared to me today -- that I was not hallucinating, etc. but that it really happened -- performed certain miracles in my presence, and revealed certain future events to me and certain teachings of a moral and theological nature.  Suppose some of these events would take place decades from now, but that among the things revealed was who would win the 2016 U.S. presidential election, what would be the exact state-by-state tally of electoral votes, etc.  Suppose I recorded all this as an entry in a daily diary I keep as a file on my computer, alongside the other events I recorded for that day.  And suppose that there was solid evidence afterward that all this had happened.  For example, suppose that there were credible witnesses who reported observing Christ’s appearing to me and performing miracles, that the events of the 2016 election turned out exactly as predicted, etc.   Certainly we’d have good evidence in that case that I had really witnessed a divine revelation and certainly we’d have reason to believe that everything Christ said to me was infallible. 

But would this show that all the files on my computer -- the various blog posts, journal articles, book manuscripts, etc. -- are divinely inspired?  Would it show even that just the diary as a whole is divinely inspired?  Indeed, would it show even that the entire single entry for that particular day is divinely inspired (including the events recorded from earlier in that day, which involved me giving such-and-such financial advice to a friend, such-and-such moral advice to one of my children, etc.)?  How exactly would it show any of that?  Indeed, how would it show even that I’d gotten Christ’s words exactly right?  Maybe I recorded the part about the 2016 election correctly, but made certain mistakes when recording what Christ said about the other matters.

By the same token, how would establishing that the writings associated with Moses and the apostles are accurate in their record of such-and-such miraculous events, their record that certain prophets and apostles taught such-and-such, etc. show also that the writings themselves -- as opposed to some of the events and teachings they record -- are in their entirety divinely inspired and thus scriptural?  Perhaps instead (a skeptic might suggest) they contain accurate information about certain miracles that actually occurred and certain teachings that really were divinely revealed, but in such a way that various errors are mixed in with this otherwise accurate reporting.  Maybe (the skeptic continues) it isn’t really the writings themselves which have divine backing, but rather only certain events and teachings reported by these otherwise flawed documents that have it.

Hence the Turretin-Fulford argument fails even to show that the specific scriptural writings it deals with (Exodus, John’s gospel, etc.) are in their entirety divinely inspired -- let alone showing that every book Fulford and Turretin would regard as scriptural is divinely inspired.  And the argument certainly fails to show that scripture alone suffices to show us that these books really are divinely inspired.

Which brings us to a third problem with the Turretin-Fulford argument.  Suppose the argument could be developed in a way that would get around the first two problems.  How would that show us that scripture alone suffices to tell us what counts as scripture, or that scripture alone suffices to tell us even that the writings associated with Moses, the apostles, etc. count as scripture?  For the Turretin-Fulford style of argument makes use of historical evidence, criteria for evaluating such evidence, general logical principles, etc. which are not found in scripture itself. 

Now, sola scriptura tells us that scripture alone suffices to tell us what we need to know in matters of faith and morals.  Well, the question of whether a certain book is scriptural is itself certainly a matter of faith and morals.  But the Turretin-Fulford argument, in making use of historical evidence, criteria for evaluating such evidence, general logical principles, etc. -- evidence, criteria, and principles which cannot themselves be found in scripture -- in order to settle this matter, thereby violates sola scriptura in the very act of defending it.  For it uses extra-scriptural information and principles in order to settle a matter of faith and morals.  In other words, it does precisely what the Jesuit point (a) cited by Feyerabend says a defender of sola scriptura implicitly has to do.  So how exactly does the Turretin-Fulford argument constitute even a prima facie answer to point (a), or show that (a) is aimed at a “caricature”?

Notice that I am not denying that the specific writings the Turretin-Fulford argument makes reference to are divinely inspired.  I think they are divinely inspired.  But I think that in arguing for their divine inspiration, it is a mistake to start with scripture itself.  Rather, what comes first in the order of apologetics is an argument for the necessity of an infallible and authoritative institutional Church.  We know that such-and-such purportedly scriptural writings are in fact infallible and authoritative only if we first know that there is an infallible and authoritative institutional Church, and that this Church has herself judged those writings to be infallible and authoritative.  As St. Augustine wrote, “I would not believe the Gospel unless the authority of the Catholic Church moved me.”

Of course, Fulford will disagree with this position, but neither this post nor the previous one are about the reasons for the Catholic position.  What they are about is the problems with sola scriptura, and those problems remain whatever one thinks of the Catholic alternative.   Some readers of my post on Feyerabend responded to the Jesuit criticisms Feyerabend cites by criticizing the Catholic position.  This is fallacious for two reasons.  First, I was not trying to give an exposition and defense of the Catholic position in the first place.  That’s a separate topic.  Second, even if the Catholic position were wrong, that would not show that sola scriptura is correct.  It might only show instead that both positions are false.  So, critics of the points summarized by Feyerabend should try to answer those points, rather than changing the subject by attacking the Catholic view.

Anyway, Fulford does try to answer the Jesuit points.  However, as we have just seen with respect to point (a), he does not do so successfully.  Neither does he succeed in answering points (b) and (c), as we’ll see in a follow-up post.

231 comments:

  1. Re: The number of the elect, here is what Garrigou-Lagrange says Life Everlasting:

    http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/everlasting_life/ev35.php

    I submit to whatever the Church teaches in this matter, but I wonder if some of the statements the Church has made in the past refer to formal heretics, schismatics, infidels, etc. vs. those who are only materially in error. I am not saying they would be saved by being materially in error, but would rather be condemned on some other count.

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  2. Brandon:

    Your argument makes very little sense.

    I'm not really making an argument, Captain Hyper-Defensive, I was just making observations and asking questions. Specifically:

    1. What does it mean to say that the entire church is infallible? How does that cash out?

    2. What's the justification for believing that the entire church (or any portion of it) is infallible in the first place?

    In terms of the first question, let's take your points into account, that the church is extended in time, that all believers are in some sense equal, but regular faithful Catholics who actively participate in the sacraments in obedience to the hierarchy are more equal than others, and that the Church's infallible teachings are best understood through the practices of these "more equal" people throughout time. That would yield the result that you could only glean the infallible teachings of the church through the consensus practices of the church's active participants, and even in that case, I'd think you'd still have a very hard time working out exactly what those infallible teachings are. Or am I incorrect to think that the practices of Catholics over time and throughout the world have varied greatly? And to the extent that they have not varied, the practices have been pretty thin in terms of doctrinal or dogmatic content. The only example you give as a possible candidate is that prayer is a good idea. Well, gee, thanks infallible church, but I think every vaguely theistic religion in the history of the world has been well aware of that since before Christianity existed. So, with your limitations in mind, it seems what we're appealing to here is either an infallibility with content so varied as to be incomprehensible, or an infallibility so thin on content as to be trivial.

    In terms of the second question, the arguments provided in the new advent article, even if they all worked as advertised (and, IMO, they don't - they mostly seem to be saying "if we're not infallible, then we might at some point have been wrong, therefore we're infallible."), wouldn't add up to anything close to a rational justification of infallibility. They'd at best add up to a justification of "best available reliability."

    And again, I don't think of myself as someone making an argument and maybe it would be helpful for the discussion if you didn't insist on seeing me that way. I'm someone who comes to the conversation with preconceived notions of Catholic beliefs who is trying to get set straight on what they are. I probably won't agree with them when I understand them, and some of my questions might strike a faithful Catholic as insulting, but, firstly, that's to be expected when an outsider is questioning an unfamiliar belief system, and secondly, I imagine a Protestant has the same feeling reading Feser's article. What's good for the goose and all. But I am not here merely to attempt to be insulting; I'm here trying to make a good faith attempt to understand the doctrine.



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  3. Vincent,

    On the other hand, no-one ever proposed that St. Ignatius' letters had the status of Holy Scripture, and the Didache, while recognized as Scripture by a few Christians, never achieved widespread recognition. 

    On the contrary, St. Clement's, St. Ignatius's, and St. Polycarp's letters, as well as the Shepard of Hermes (I'm not sure about the Didache) were used as Scripture in many local places, along with the Letters of St. Paul and the Gospels. St. Ignatius was especially popular all over the place, and St. Clement was very popular in Greece at least.

    On the other hand, one might argue that Revelation shouldn't be included.

    The writings mentioned above were eventually rejected, but by that time the Church's hierarchy and structure was clear, and so the Protestants would have to accept Bishops and Succession in order to be consistent.

    Basically I was relying on 1 John 4:1-3, where it is proposed as a litmus test for discerning the spirits:

    But if that doctrine is derived from John's letter, than the Protestant is arguing in a circle, because he is trying to establish that 1 John and the other books are Scripture. You can't say that 1 John is Scripture because it teaches the true doctrine, and that we know what true doctrine is by appealing to 1 John.

    Now, you can say that 1 John's statement is based in Tradition, and so claim that we can know Scripture by appealing to Tradition again. But, Apostolic Succession is clearly in Tradition, and so the Protestant is only consistent if he accepts it, and thus ceases to be Protestant.

    Re condition (iv), freedom from obvious doctrinal error would certainly exclude the so-called "Gospels" of the Gnostics, who died the reality of the Incarnation. They fail the condition laid down in 1 John 4. As to how one might know that the four Gospels we have, rather than the Gnostic Gospels, genuinely reflect the teaching of Christ, the simple answer is that they're older. 

    Again, we know the Incarnation is Christian doctrine by appealing to either Scripture or Tradition. To appeal to Scripture to justify Scripture is to argue in a circle, and the appeal to Tradition to justify Scripture causes the Protestant to accept Succession (if he's consistent), and thus reject Protestantism and Scripture alone.

    I would also add that a book claiming to be inspired by God shouldn't contain acknowledgements by the author that he might be mistaken. Nor should it contain obvious factual errors (although determining what counts as one can sometimes be tricky).

    I agree.

    Vincent, Dr. Feser's is right: sola Scriptura either commits a basic logical error, or appeals to Tradition, and thus becomes inconsistent, and is definitely unhistorical.

    Christi pax.

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  4. This is muddling up several distinct issues. On the Catholic view, the pope and bishops have authority even when they aren't teaching infallibly

    This leads to another question I've always had: if the church has the ability to speak infallibly all of the time, why doesn't it speak infallibly all of the time? Why does it bother with fallible teachings?

    All the arguments I've seen for the ability of the Church to speak infallibly ever would equally support the belief that the Church should be capable of speaking infallibly always. So why do the arguments stop short of that conclusion, and allow for the possibility of error coming out of any organ of the church at any time at all? The obvious, immediate, cynical answer to an outsider is that it's hedging its bets.

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    1. This leads to another question I've always had: if the church has the ability to speak infallibly all of the time, why doesn't it speak infallibly all of the time? Why does it bother with fallible teachings?

      It does. When I, as a member of the Church, say that "Jesus is the Messiah," I'm infallible. When Bishop Zubic says that, it also is infallible. There is a distinction between ordinary Magisterium, which both used in the example, and the extra-ordinary Magisterium, which is Councils, Popes, etc. The Ordinary "passively observes" Tradition, while the extra-ordinary "judges" Tradition.

      I really want to write a good post, but, like all good things, it will take a while.

      Christi pax.

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  5. Daniel, some on both sides of these arguments are mistaken about the part played by tradition in the first generation of the Reformation. The Augsburg Confession (1530), first confession of the Reformation and the founding document of Lutheranism, does not have any article on the scriptures.

    Yes, the reformers, before they became the Reformers, seemed to use sola Scriptura as a principle to reform the Catholic Church. Only latter did it become a principle of a new religion.

    Rather, it appeals to the hierarchy of sources within the tradition of the ancient church. The scriptures are the highest authority, but they are interpreted in the light of the fathers

    ...but this position is rejected by the ealry Church. If you looked at my Abba Daniel comment above, the monk appeals to the Church directly to justify Transubstantiation. He does not appeal to Scripture at all. The Church is what is appealed to for doctrine, just as the Apostles and the Fathers teach.

    Augustine, in many volumes, defends grace and the righteousness of faith, over against the merits of works.

    But the Catholic Church doesn't and didn't teach salvation by works, in the sense that the Confession is rejecting.

    but only omit some abuses which are new

    What does the Confession define as abuses?

    Thank you!

    Christi pax.

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  6. I think the two "real" disagreements between Catholics and Protestants is the Protestant (minus the Methodists, sort of) rejection of infused Grace, and the Protestant rejection of the Catholic Church, that is, the visible Church, as founded by Christ, and thus authoritive. Both of these positions are rejected in Scripture and Tradition.

    Christi pax.

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  7. @ Chad,

    1. What does it mean to say that the entire church is infallible? How does that cash out?

    That it is impossible for the body of the faithful to entirely fail or fall into error on matters of faith and morals. This would exclude a belief, for example, that the Church is only infallible on those matters during or in the setting of a council on when the Magisterium pronounces authoritatively on a certain doctrine. It would preclude the belief that outside of those rather rare and exceptional situations that the entire Church could fall into or lapse into error and especially heresy.


    2. What's the justification for believing that the entire church (or any portion of it) is infallible in the first place?

    See above.

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  8. @ Chad,


    if the church has the ability to speak infallibly all of the time, why doesn't it speak infallibly all of the time? Why does it bother with fallible teachings?

    Do you mean why does she tolerate theological speculation? Because she beliefs the Holy Spirit really is in the Church leading her into the fulness of truth.

    Furthermore, Catholic doctrine is presumed to be, in a sense, already infallible. When the bishops and the pope speak authoritatively on some issue, they are setting a dispute about what Catholic doctrine really is, says or teaches. They are not inventing new doctrines but protecting and affirming doctrines already held or believed by the Church - or even just acknowledging them as Catholic doctrines or doctrines worthy and safe for belief.

    When the Church teaches infallibly, she is normally ending a debate or dispute or a controversy and affirming one Catholic doctrine as the Catholic doctrine. It should be remembered, however, that insofar as Catholic doctrine originates from the Gospel and the teaching of the Apostles, its content is already of itself infallible - having as it does God for its teaching source - and, of course, also inerrant.

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  9. "setting a dispute" should read "settling a dispute"

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  10. Timocrates:

    That it is impossible for the body of the faithful to entirely fail or fall into error on matters of faith and morals.

    What does the qualifier "entirely" mean? That as long as there are a handful who resist the error, infallibility has been upheld?

    Let's take the issue of slavery. Isn't it true that there was a time when nearly the entire Catholic world, living and dead, held that slavery was morally permissible? Didn't several popes issue several bulls to that effect? Is that not an occasion of the body of the faithful entirely falling into error on a significant matter of morals? Or does the fact that there was always a small remnant of Christians who held that slavery was immoral sufficient to preserve infallibility? Because if the latter, again, infallibility seems like a rather thin claim, amounting only to the assertion that some Catholic somewhere is getting it right.

    See above.

    Above where? Do you mean to refer me to an earlier response, in which case, which response? Or do you think the earlier portion of the response in question contains in it some justification for a belief in infallibility? Because if the latter, I don't see it.

    Do you mean why does she tolerate theological speculation?

    No, I mean why does anyone as high up in the hierarchy as a Pope or an archbishop ever bother to knowingly and purposely give a fallible teaching on an important issue, when, if the arguments produced are correct, he has the resources available to him to only speak infallibly.

    It should be remembered, however, that insofar as Catholic doctrine originates from the Gospel and the teaching of the Apostles, its content is already of itself infallible - having as it does God for its teaching source - and, of course, also inerrant.

    Except that nothing in the Scriptures comes close to justifying this doctrine without added baseless speculation. The textual evidence advanced by the new advent article I read do not come close to justifying a belief in infallibility without speculating recklessly or attempting to read the mind of God.

    The arguments are typically of the form of "Well wouldn't God want to provide some Earthly authority for infallibly preserving the truths of faith?" Well, the only correct answer anyone could give to this question is "I don't know, because I'm not God." But I can think of several reasons why God expressly would not want to set up any infallible Earthly authority, or lead anyone to believe that anything could be infallible other than himself, principally being that this would provide an enormous temptation to idolatry. But leaving that aside, without these added speculations, which are not Scriptural the supposed scriptural support for infallibility, (at least in the passages referenced in the New Advent article) simply isn't there.

    And again, if Jesus had the Catholic Church in mind, he could have easily and expressly set out the doctrines of Apostolic Succession and infallibility in a sentence or two. He didn't. The support doesn't come from the Scriptures, but from dubious speculation on the Scriptures. And the Catholic Church's conclusions from those speculations from my perspective, are anything but infallible, and almost certainly wrong.

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    1. Good evening Chad,

      No, I mean why does anyone as high up in the hierarchy as a Pope or an archbishop ever bother to knowingly and purposely give a fallible teaching on an important issue, when, if the arguments produced are correct, he has the resources available to him to only speak infallibly.

      The Jewish high priest was also infallible, due to Urim and Thummim. However, he only excersied his infallibility in extraordinary circumstances. In the same way, the Bishops only exercise their infallibility, in the sense we are talking about, in extraordinary circumstances. Why do they do this? Out of respect for it, at least.

      Except that nothing in the Scriptures comes close to justifying this doctrine without added baseless speculation. The textual evidence advanced by the new advent article I read do not come close to justifying a belief in infallibility without speculating recklessly or attempting to read the mind of God.

      I disagree. St. Paul called the Church the Pillar of Truth, and Jesus promised that He will be with us always, and He is Truth. So Truth will always be with us (these aren't speculations, but straight quotes). He also specifically promises to send the Spirit to lead us to all Truth.

      In other words, we aren't speculating on the thoughts of the Divine Mind (which is impossible anyway). Rather, we are just following what the Divine Mind has told us. God wants us to know His Truth, because to know His Truth is to know Him, to bring our Intellect in union with His.

      Well wouldn't God want to provide some Earthly authority for infallibly preserving the truths of faith?

      Chad, I think the reason you run into this argument is because these apologists are conversing with Protestants. After they show that Scripture by necessity cannot be the only Revelation, then they introduce Church Infalliblity.

      Both Catholics and Protestants accept that the Revelation of God includes Truth, so a debate on whether God actually gives infallible Truth never occurs.

      But leaving that aside, without these added speculations, which are not Scriptural the supposed scriptural support for infallibility, (at least in the passages referenced in the New Advent article) simply isn't there.

      On the contrary, the Lord says, "But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the Truth."

      Patrick and I actually both agree that this promise is true, although we disagree on how.

      he could have easily and expressly set out the doctrines of Apostolic Succession and infallibility in a sentence or two.

      The Sadducees argued that God didn't teach about a Resurrection of the Dead in the Torah. However, Christ responds with "I am the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob," which doesn't "easily and expressly set out the doctrine." Thus, not all doctrines have to be "easily and expressly set out."

      Where does Jesus "easily and expressly set out" that God is Love? He teaches that we should love God, but He never "easily and expressly sets out" that God is Love.

      The support doesn't come from the Scriptures, but from dubious speculation on the Scriptures.

      How do we determine dubious speculation from indubious speculation?

      And the Catholic Church's conclusions from those speculations from my perspective, are anything but infallible, and almost certainly wrong.

      But Chad, your statement implies that your interpretation is correct. How do we know? How can we determine true interpretation from false interpretation?

      Christi pax.

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  11. Isn't it true that there was a time when nearly the entire Catholic world, living and dead, held that slavery was morally permissible?

    What we know and understand as slavery now was morally impermissible then, and the world knew it.

    And again, if Jesus had the Catholic Church in mind, he could have easily and expressly set out the doctrines of Apostolic Succession and infallibility in a sentence or two. He didn't.

    If Jesus gives a teaching in a sentence or two (see divorce, see sexual immorality) people complain that it's not much to go on, and too much was left unsaid. When more is said, then it gets too complicated and people who want to disagree, still do.

    The textual evidence advanced by the new advent article I read do not come close to justifying a belief in infallibility without speculating recklessly or attempting to read the mind of God.

    And the Catholic Church's conclusions from those speculations from my perspective, are anything but infallible, and almost certainly wrong.

    It turns out that reading the mind of God is very easy so long as you feel strongly about it.

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  12. That would yield the result that you could only glean the infallible teachings of the church through the consensus practices of the church's active participants....

    Your reasoning is unclear here. The 'only' here does not follow from the points you note; in fact, it is inconsistent with them, and even if it weren't, it is very obviously inconsistent with what I immediately went on to say in exactly the same comment to which you are responding.

    This leads to another question I've always had: if the church has the ability to speak infallibly all of the time, why doesn't it speak infallibly all of the time? Why does it bother with fallible teachings?

    As Daniel notes, it does infallibly teach all the time; it infallibly teaches the fundamental principles of the faith all the time: in every sacrament, in every communal affirmation of the Creed, in its continually putting forward Scripture as canonical authority.

    On the other side, I don't know what it would mean not to bother with fallible teachings. Since human beings on their own teach fallibly, a Church with no fallible teaching would have to be a Church in which there were no human beings. Since the infallible teaching authority of the Church is necessarily nothing more than a participation, under certain conditions, in the infallible teaching authority of the Holy Spirit, what you are asking is equivalent to asking why the Holy Spirit doesn't just give everyone an immediate, complete, and error-free understanding of all matters pertaining in any way to the faith.

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  13. Timocrates: “Furthermore, Catholic doctrine is presumed to be, in a sense, already infallible. When the bishops and the pope speak authoritatively on some issue, they are setting a dispute about what Catholic doctrine really is, says or teaches. They are not inventing new doctrines but protecting and affirming doctrines already held or believed by the Church - or even just acknowledging them as Catholic doctrines or doctrines worthy and safe for belief. 


    When the Church teaches infallibly, she is normally ending a debate or dispute or a controversy and affirming one Catholic doctrine as the Catholic doctrine. It should be remembered, however, that insofar as Catholic doctrine originates from the Gospel and the teaching of the Apostles, its content is already of itself infallible - having as it does God for its teaching source - and, of course, also inerrant.”

    Here again there is the claim that there are no doctrinal innovations in the Roman Catholic Church, which, if true, would mean that all the doctrines of that church were already held by the apostles. However, if this was true, with respect to the content of the apostles’ teaching the New Testament would be to a large extent incomplete. This may become clear if one reads the following article about indulgences and compares its content with what the New Testament says about this issue (if it says anything at all about it):

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

    I think if one is of the opinion that with respect to the content of the apostles’ teaching the New Testament is not to a large extent incomplete, in view of quite a number of obvious doctrinal innovations of the Roman Catholic Church the idea of something like “sola scriptura” or at least “only Scripture and the Church fathers”, as seems to have been the position of the Augsburg Confession (see comment on July 22, 2015 at 11:20), comes naturally.

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  14. Isn't it true that there was a time when nearly the entire Catholic world, living and dead, held that slavery was morally permissible? Didn't several popes issue several bulls to that effect?

    So I take it that you are raising this question about infallibility in general, including that of Scripture, not just that of the Church? Because the same line of reasoning would after all apply just as well to Scripture if it applies at all; and if it didn't apply, the same reasoning why it didn't would apply to the teaching of the Church as to that of Scripture.

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  15. I think we ought to be more disciplined in the combox, lest we follow rabbit trails. The topic is empiricism and sola Scriptura, how they are both epistemically insufficient and self-contradictory. If we want to discuss Apostolic Succession and ecclesial infallibility, why not try Called to Communion? -Where, I might add, the issue is being discussed in a charitable, scholarly way by both Catholics and Protestants.

    http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2013/05/apostolic-succession-and-historical-inquiry-some-preliminary-remarks/

    http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/03/doug-wilsons-authority-and-apostolic-succession/

    http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2012/06/the-catholic-and-protestant-authority-paradigms-compared/

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  16. @ Chad,

    Yes, it does mean that it is impossible for the body of the faithful to fall into error en masse in matters of faith and morals. The Magisterium likewise has a unique and simultaneous protection. It means, for example, that if we are required to believe in order something to be true that the Church at some point in history was labouring under or officially taught, believed and upheld error -whether the body taken as whole or even just the Magisterium- in regards to the faith for even a minute then it can't be true. The Church doesn't lapse and cannot fall into heresy. That is significant. It means the Church taken as a whole is always a living witness and testimony to the Apostolic faith and will never fail to be that. Should, therefore, someone question or doubt this or require we believe we, we can be certain that they are in error.

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  17. *or require we believer otherwise, then we can be certain that they are in error*

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  18. Just to be clear, "the New Advent article" is actually an entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia, published early in the twentieth century and now hosted in electronic form on NewAdvent.org.

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  19. Glenn: “Is it also your view is that it is easy to tell whether a Christian is a true Christian?”

    That’s not necessarily the case. That someone belongs to Christ and is driven by the Holy Spirit is not something one can see. Of course, looking at a person’s way of life and what this person claims to believe one can draw a conclusion concerning the probability of that person being a true Christian. As for one’s way of life, if that person is driven by the Holy Spirit one might expect to see the fruit of the Holy Spirit as described in Galatians 5:22 in his life. As for what a person claims to believe if that person is driven by the Holy Spirit one might expect that these beliefs are not to a large extent unscriptural. However, I think, apart from perhaps a few exceptions, one cannot tell with absolute certainty that someone is a true Christian.

    Glenn: “If he subscribes to Sola Scriptura, he’s a true Christian; and if he doesn’t, he isn’t?”

    That someone subscribes to Sola Scriptura doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s a true Christian, and it is in my view possible that a true Christian for some reason or other does not subscribe to Sola Scriptura.

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  20. Edward (not Feser)July 24, 2015 at 5:33 AM

    Vincent,

    "Finally, a couple of thoughts on sola scriptura and the canon of Scripture. Objecting that it's not found in Scripture is a dumb argument. A Protestant could reply that he/she isn't asserting it as a true proposition, but as a default position: until someone can show me a reliable source of revelation outside Scripture, I will only trust Scripture as a source of revelation."

    I've never heard Protestants describe it that way. Quite the opposote: sola scriptura is always treated as an article of faith.

    In any case, even though the way you describe it may be consistent, I suggest it's only at the expense of being arbitrary. Why make this a default position?

    "Likewise...a Protestant could hold that there are marks which distinguish books belonging to the canon of Scripture..."

    But such marks would always be arbitrary. Why choose those five, over any other 'marks' I could come up with?

    The only reason Protestants have for choosing the books they do is tradition, but they can't admit that.

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  21. Patrick,

    Thank you for your response. I pretty much agree with everything you say in it. I would like to just say that, while it does mention the fruits, Galatians 5:22 does not mention how long it might take for them to manifest in any given case. It could be soon, and might even be relatively instantaneous. But there's also no guaranty that it won't take a while. It depends, partly, on the 'patient' and the 'illness'. I think it important to bear that in mind when making an educated guess re the probabilities you mention.

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  22. (Ghastly oversight. Sorry. s/b "...when attempting to make an educated guess...".)

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  23. @Chad Handley:

    This leads to another question I've always had: if the church has the ability to speak infallibly all of the time, why doesn't it speak infallibly all of the time? Why does it bother with fallible teachings?

    Let's start one step back here. What do you think "infallibility" means?

    Karl Keating somewhere asks an interesting question on this subject. Suppose the Pope were infallible on the subject of trigonometry. You give him a trigonometry test consisting of a hundred questions. What is the smallest number of correct answers he could possibly give?

    The question trips up a lot of Catholics, too. The answer isn't one hundred; it's zero. If he hasn't kept up on the reading and homework, he may not know the answers to any of the questions. He won't give wrong answers, but he may not give any.

    Similarly*, on matters of faith and morals, "infallibility" doesn't guarantee that the Pope has an infallible answer to any given question; it just keeps him from presenting an answer as "infallible" when it isn't. Infallibility isn't a magic source of knowledge; the Pope still has to do the homework.

    I've used papal infallibility as an example, but I'm sure you can extend the point appropriately.

    ----

    * "Similarly" up to a point, anyway. In contrast to the trigonometry test, a Pope can give an answer to a question without presenting it as "infallible"; there are certain conditions that have to be met, and certain formulas that have to be applied, in order to identify a papal statement as "infallible."

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    1. @Chad

      To add onto what Scott wrote, the term "infallible" is in itself a negative. "In-falible;" not fallible.

      A simple way of understanding Church teaching is that the Apostles themselves were both inspired and infallible, but their Successors are only infallible. Since the last Apostle died, there has been no inspiration, and thus Revelation is considered "close."

      Christi pax.

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  24. @Daniel D.D.
    No, because doubt is only reasonable if faith is rejected a priori.

    I am going to assume there are plenty of non-Christian claims you treat as doubtful if not false, and it can’t be because you don’t have faith.

    You either trust those who testify or you don't.

    It can be a mixture of fact and fiction/hearsay. You can believe some of the things they write and disbelieve others. In each case you should have reasons for believing or disbelieving.

    Historically speaking, what they Testify to has not been proven false.

    Has it been proven true? You claimed Jesus as Messiah cannot be proven by reason, even while asserting it is reasonable to believe. It seems to set a very low bar for what should be believed as truth – anything that has not been proven false. Adopting such a standard seems to allow for many conspiracies.

    And since we trust ancient testimonies that are far less trustworthy…

    Not if there is a sufficient reason for distrusting them.

    The text does not and cannot "speak for itself."

    I get, I do. When it comes to Constitutional law I think originalism is patently false and pragmatic constructionism is glaringly true. What I don’t get is claiming either the source document or its interpreters are infallible while engaging in a constructionist interpretation.

    P.S. What was Step1? ;-)

    I’ve told this story elsewhere but not when Dr. Feser was around. My screenname is a copy of my handwritten signature. I abbreviate about half my first name and only use a stylized L for my last name, which closely resembles a 2.

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  25. Has it been proven true? You claimed Jesus as Messiah cannot be proven by reason, even while asserting it is reasonable to believe. It seems to set a very low bar for what should be believed as truth – anything that has not been proven false.

    Yes, St. Thomas does write about this.

    The first principle you must understand is that we Christians believe what we do because it has been revealed by God as true. A saving faith is a faith in the truths God has revealed, regardless of whether or not we personally could reason to them. In fact, Christ specifically points to beliefs that humans (at least in this life) can not even in principle reason to.

    For example, it has been revealed that God is unchanging, something which I can prove through reason alone. Yet, if I believe in the teaching just because I've reasoned to it is not faith. For my belief to be a saving faith, I must first and foremost believe it because of Divine Revelation, and then possibly deduce the reasons for it. As Scott wrote, instead of believing something the Church teaches because he can understand it, he believes it because the Church teaches it.

    An example of an aspect of Revelation that cannot in principle be deduced is the Trinity. The Trinity is reasonable, and St. Thomas works hard to demonstrate this, but we first needed to have the doctrine revealed to us, as we humans are unable to understand God positively without Grace (negative Theology).

    To put it another way, we know these teaching are true because God revealed them, and Christian philosophy is then trying to understand how these truths all fit together coherently. As St. Anslem writes, "faith seeking understanding." We have faith in God's Revelation, and then, by Grace, we understand it, at least somewhat.

    This view flies directly in the face to the Enlightenment "reason alone," as you point out.

    The real debate is then whether Christian Revelation is truly from God.

    Adopting such a standard seems to allow for many conspiracies.

    That depends. Maybe this will make sense: some facts can be used to support multiple theories, just as some matter can take multiple forms. The question is whether our theory can explain all the facts. I would argue that, given the historical evidence, the Christian explanation is the most powerful. However, although I can make a strong argument (let's just assume for the sake of argument), I can never completely rule out other theories.

    A good example of why faith is necessary even to accept a very reasonable interpretation is William Lane Craig's Resurrection argument. Let's assume it is true: Jesus did rise from the dead. What now? Well, most people will probably think that Dr. Craig proved Orthodox Christianity true, but how many heretical sects are compatible with the Resurrection? I now that at least the Arians are. Muslims could also work around their traditional understanding of Jesus's non-death to explain it. There was even a Jewish Rabbi (friend to Pope John Paul the Great) who believed that the Gospels recorded the true teaching of Jesus, and that He rose from the dead. However, he drew the line at His claims to Divinity.

    To summarize the point of my example, to quote Bertrand Russel: "a finite set of facts can give rise to an indefinite number of theories." We Christians would say that, through reason, we can know the truths of natural theology, as natural theology only deals with the "facts" available to the intellect by nature. However, the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus, etc., are reasonably based on facts that we can not possibly know, some only in this life, and some not ever. As such, these interpretations that we call Christian Doctrine had to be revealed, otherwise we cannot know them. Faith is just a pragmatic responses to the sinful human reality.

    Does that make sense?

    Christi pax.

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  26. and thus Revelation is considered "close[d]."

    Another way to view that is: the New Testament consists only of documents that were extant as of the time when Apostles were alive and could, directly and in person, approve or reject any claim of authentic teaching. Only those writings which the Apostles themselves approved can be part of the canon. Since, by definition, they aren't around to approve anything later, nothing later can be part of the canon.

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  27. @Daniel D.D.
    To put it another way, we know these teaching are true because God revealed them, and Christian philosophy is then trying to understand how these truths all fit together coherently.

    The real debate is then whether Christian Revelation is truly from God.

    Well, I'm not sure how to have the debate if you already know it is from God completely by faith and are then only attempting to justify it with reason. As your Russell quote points out, a finite set of facts can give rise to an indefinite number of theories, so if a person points out a contradiction there are also an unlimited number of theories to try to explain away the contradiction. While this may make your position internally coherent it doesn't make those explanations objectively true.

    Peace.

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  28. Daniel,

    Thanks for your kind welcome.

    I am sorry for the delay in responding to your question.

    I was away in travel at the time of your questions.

    Regarding your question on sufism...sufism is not mutually exclusive from Islam. Indeed, many Muslims say that to be a Muslim fully, one needs to be a sufi.Historically all sufis have been Muslims. Almost all Salafi Muslims are very opposed to Sufism.

    I support the sufi approach but certainly not all practices and thoughts by all or most sufis.

    Your question regarding the Trinity and the Qur'an is a good one.

    The Qur'an does not explicitly state that the Holy Spirit of the Trinity refers to Mary.

    It does speak against the Christian doctrines of God having a son and also speaks against the Trinity in the same passage. It also states that Jesus and Mary both were dependent with the example that they needed nutrition and that Jesus never asked for any of his disciples to worship him or his mother (Mary).

    From this some Christian apologists bring up that the Qur'an is inaccurate in its assessment of the Trinity.

    There are many several points to keep in mind that show that this assumption against the Qur'an is misplaced.

    Regarding just one point, I refer you to please see

    PHILOPONIAN MONOPHYSITISM IN
    SOUTH ARABIA AT THE ADVENT OF
    ISLAM WITH IMPLICATIONS FOR THE
    ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF ‘THALATHA’
    IN QURAN 4. 171 AND 5. 73

    by C. Jonn Block (University of Exter)

    In it, he writes,

    "In the region of Arabia at the time of Prophet Muhammad, there were

    This study aims at a non-reductionist historical view of

    the rejection of the term ‘trinity’ in the Qur'anic revelations following the

    Christo-Islamic meeting between the Prophet and the Najrani Christians.

    It will be shown that the particular Arabic word choices in Q. 4. 171 and

    5. 73 are congruent with the historicity of Monophysite Philoponian

    tritheism being the dominant Christology of the Najrani bishop Abu

    Haritha, and thus contemporary English translations of the Qur'an which

    employ the term ‘trinity’, are inaccurate."

    Peace and warm greetings,
    Omer

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