Monday, July 13, 2015

Feyerabend on empiricism and sola scriptura


In his essay “Classical Empiricism,” available in Problems of Empiricism: Philosophical Papers, Volume 2, philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend compares the empiricism of the early moderns to the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura.  He suggests that there are important parallels between them; in particular, he finds them both incoherent, and for the same reasons.  (No, Feyerabend is not doing Catholic apologetics.  He’s critiquing empiricism.)

To understand Feyerabend’s comparison, we need to be clear on what “empiricism” is.  (Here and when commenting on sola scriptura I’ll be going a bit beyond what Feyerabend himself says, since some of his remarks are sketchy and merely suggestive.)  In the generic sense, empiricism is of course the view that all knowledge derives from experience.  But there are different ways to interpret that thesis, and the empiricism of Aristotle and Aquinas is by no means the same as that of Locke and Hume.  For the Aristotelian, Feyerabend says, “experience [is] the sum total of what is observed under normal circumstances (bright daylight; senses in good order; undisturbed and alert observer) and what is then described in some ordinary idiom that is understood by all” (p. 35).  It also involves interpreting what is currently perceived in light of “tradition” or “preconceived opinion” (p. 37).  Hence ordinary, everyday statements like “The gunman was wearing a ski mask” or “This apple is stale” -- which presuppose that we already know, from past experience, what a gunman typically looks like, what stale apples taste like, etc. -- would for the Aristotelian provide examples of the sorts of things we know immediately via experience.

But they are decidedly not the sorts of thing empiricism as it developed from Locke to the logical positivists regards as immediately knowable via experience.  Developing as it did in the shadow of Cartesian skepticism, modern empiricism holds that since you might be dreaming or hallucinating the gunman or the apple, what is immediately knowable from experience must instead be something that would remain true even if you were dreaming or hallucinating.  A first suggestion might be that what you know is that “It seems to me that there is a gunman wearing a ski mask” or “It seems to me that I am eating a stale apple.”  But this will not do, because even these statements presuppose all sorts of things which might be doubted. 

For example, they presuppose memory of recent events in light of which what you are experiencing now is best described in terms of a gunman or an apple.  But maybe where you now think you see a gunman, you thought, a few moments ago, that you were looking at your friend playing the part of a gunman in a play you are watching, and you have now forgotten about this context (under the influence of a Cartesian demon, say).  Or maybe a moment ago it was a circus clown that you thought was standing where the gunman now seems to be, and you have forgotten about that context (because of the LSD that someone put in your drink and that has just kicked in).  So why say “It seems to me that there is a gunman wearing a ski mask,” as opposed to something like “It seems to me there is a person (who may be a gunman, or my friend playing the role of a gunman, or a clown who for some reason suddenly looks like a gunman) wearing a ski mask”?  Indeed, why speak in terms of a person, since maybe instead it was a shoe or a ham sandwich you thought you saw there a moment ago (and then suddenly forgot about it under the influence of LSD, or a Cartesian demon, or whatever)?

So, the modern empiricist analysis of experience proceeds by abstracting out more and more of what common sense and Aristotelian empiricism alike regard as “experience.”  On this view, it isn’t statements like “This apple is stale” that we know immediately from experience, but rather something like “There is currently a reddish patch in the center of my field of vision” or even “I am being appeared to redly,” or some other bizarre sort of proposition, that we know immediately.  And to describe what it is that we know from these basic propositions, we cannot use our ordinary concepts but need to develop a new technical vocabulary and talk of “sense data,” “protocol sentences,” and the like.  Everyday statements like “This apple is stale” have to be somehow derived from or reconstructed out of these purportedly more basic statements -- as do all the propositions of science and whatever else we can truly be said to know.

Notoriously, attempts to reconstruct everyday knowledge and scientific knowledge from such purportedly more basic statements all fail.  Not only could modern empiricists not derive everyday and scientific statements from the purportedly more basic ones, they couldn’t agree on what the basic ones were supposed to be.  For the Aristotelian -- and for other critics of modern empiricism like the later Wittgenstein -- this is exactly what we should expect, for the whole project is incoherent.  Statements like “There is currently a reddish patch in the center of my field of vision” are not more basic than statements like “This apple is stale,” but less basic.  The notion of a reddish patch in the center of one’s field of vision (to stick with that example) is parasitic on the notion of everyday experience of objects like apples, an abstraction from such ordinary experiences.  We talk of reddish patches and the like precisely to describe experiences that are abnormal, cases where the ordinary course of experience has in some way broken down.

In effect, the modern empiricist takes the most aberrant possible cases of “experience,” tries to find out what they have in common with all other cases, and makes of that lowest common denominator the baseline from which to reconstruct all experience.  It’s like a psychologist taking the thought processes of the most insane person he can find, teasing out whatever it is those thought processes might have in common with those of all other people, and then attempting to reconstruct a notion of “rationality” in terms of that.  The whole procedure is perverse, a matter of letting the tail -- indeed, a diseased, gangrenous tail -- wag the dog.  The correct procedure in the case of rationality is, of course, to start with paradigmatically rational thought processes and evaluate the various kinds of irrationality in light of those.  And the correct procedure where experience is concerned is to take the ordinary cases as paradigmatic and evaluate the aberrant cases in terms of those, rather than the other way around. 

Now, just as you are never going to derive everything that is constitutive of rationality merely from an analysis of the thought processes of which the most insane person is capable, neither are you ever going to derive everything that is constitutive of ordinary experience merely from the desiccated ingredients -- color patches in fields of vision, etc. -- to which the modern empiricist tends to confine himself.  There is simply far more to ordinary experience than that, and if you refuse to allow in anything but what can be constructed from the desiccated bits, you will inevitably undermine the very notion of empirical knowledge and end up in total skepticism (as Hume does).  And if you don’t end up in total skepticism, it is because you will surreptitiously be smuggling in elements to which you are not entitled given a modern empiricist conception of “experience.”

Thus, though hardly a philosophical traditionalist, Feyerabend judges that:

Aristotelian empiricism, as a matter of fact, is the only empiricism that is both clear -- one knows what kind of thing experience is supposed to be -- and rational -- one can give reasons why experience is stable and why it serves so well as a foundation of knowledge.

For example, one can say that experience is stable because human nature (under normal conditions) is stable. Even a slave perceives the world as his master does.  Or one can say that experience is trustworthy because normal man (man without instruments to becloud his senses and special doctrines to becloud his mind) and the universe are adapted to each other; they are in harmony.

This rational context which enables us to understand the Aristotelian doctrine and which also provides a starting point of discussion is eliminated by the ‘enlightenment’ of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

…It is characteristic of this enlightenment that it constantly mentions new and undiluted foundations of knowledge… while at the same time making it impossible ever to identify these foundations and to build on them. (p. 35)

Feyerabend’s own main interest is not in what modern philosophers made of empiricism, though, but what early modern scientists like Newton made of it.  And he argues that, like any modern empiricism that does not dissolve into skepticism, the empiricist scruples of scientists like Newton were applied selectively and inconsistently. 

But what does this have to do with sola scriptura?  The idea is this.  Summarizing an early Jesuit critique of the Protestant doctrine, Feyerabend notes that (a) scripture alone can never tell you what counts as scripture, (b) scripture alone cannot tell you how to interpret scripture, and (c) scripture alone cannot give us a procedure for deriving consequences from scripture, applying it to new circumstances, and the like.  Let’s elaborate on each and note the parallels with modern empiricism.

First, there is no passage in any book regarded as scriptural that tells you: “Here is a list of the books which constitute scripture.”  And even if there were, how would we know that that passage is really part of scripture?  For the Catholic, the problem doesn’t arise, because scripture is not the only authoritative source of revealed theological knowledge in the first place.  It is rather part of a larger body of authoritative doctrine, which includes tradition and, ultimately, the decrees of an institutional, magisterial Church. 

This larger context -- tradition and Magisterium -- is analogous to the larger context within which both common sense and Aristotelianism understand “experience.”  Experience, for common sense and for the Aristotelian, includes not just sense data -- color patches, tactile impressions, etc. -- but also the rich conceptual content in terms of which we ordinarily describe experience, the immediate memories that provide context for present experience, and so forth.  Just as modern empiricism abstracts all this away and leaves us with desiccated sense contents as what is purportedly just “given,” so too does sola scriptura abstract away tradition and Magisterium and present (what it claims to be) scripture as if it were just given.  And just as the resulting experiential “given” is too thin to tell us anything -- including what counts as “given” -- so too is scripture divorced from its larger context unable to tell us even what counts as scripture.  The modern empiricist inevitably, and inconsistently, surreptitiously appeals to something beyond (what he claims to be) experience in order to tell us what counts as “experience.”  And the sola scriptura advocate inevitably, and inconsistently, surreptitiously appeals to something beyond scripture in order to tell us what scripture is.

Second, even if what counts as scripture could be settled, there is still the question of how to interpret it.  Nor is it any good to claim that scripture itself interprets scripture.  If you say that scriptural passage A is to be interpreted in light of scriptural passage B, then how do you know you’ve gotten B itself right?  And why not say instead that B should be interpreted in light of A?  Inevitably you’re going to have to go beyond scripture in order to settle such questions.  Similarly, even if the modern empiricist can settle the question of which contents count as “experience” -- again, color patches, tactile impressions, or whatever -- there is still the question of what significance to attach to these contents.  Should we interpret them as properties of externally existing physical objects?  Should we interpret them instead in a phenomenalist way?  Is there some “natural” set of relations they bear to one another, or are all the ways we might relate them sheer constructs of the human mind?  However we answer such questions, we will be going beyond anything “experience” itself, as the modern empiricist construes it, could tell us.

Third, even if you can settle the questions of what counts as scripture and of what each scriptural passage means, scripture itself cannot tell you how to infer anything from scripture.  For example, when applying scriptural principles to scientific issues and practical problems, which background empirical, historical, and philosophical assumptions about the world should we employ?   In drawing inferences, should we use a traditional Aristotelian system of logic, or a modern Fregean one?  Which system of modal logic should we use?  What should we think about quantum logic, free logic and other such exotica?  Scripture itself obviously offers no answers to such questions.  Again, in drawing inferences from scripture we will be going beyond anything scripture itself says.  Similarly, “experience” as the modern empiricist construes it tells us nothing about how we are to infer anything from experience, so that in doing so we will thereby be going beyond experience.

Hence, just as Feyerabend thinks Aristotelian empiricism superior to the modern form, so too, on the question of how to understand scripture, he remarks: “We see how much more reasonable and human the Roman position has been” (p. 37).  But as I have said, he is not doing Catholic apologetics, but philosophy of science.  His point is that since sola scriptura is problematic, so is the classical empiricism in terms of which modern science was for so long interpreted.  Clearly, though, the sword cuts both ways.  If the parallels are as Feyerabend sees them, someone who already thinks sola scriptura problematic but is sympathetic to modern empiricism should re-think the latter.  (Cheekily, Feyerabend characterizes Baconian empiricism as “the second great fundamentalist doctrine of the seventeenth century” (p. 37))  But someone who is sympathetic to sola scriptura but already thinks that modern empiricism is problematic should re-think the former. 

Why, if these views are so clearly self-undermining, do their partisans not see this?  In answering this question, Feyerabend devotes much of his article to a discussion of the details of the history of the debate over Newton’s theory of color.  His aim is to provide an illustration of how the purported “success” of the empiricist interpretation of science -- which might seem to confirm that interpretation, despite its conceptual problems -- involves selective and inconsistent application of empiricist scruples, question-begging assumptions, ad hoc hypotheses, and so forth.  And once again he sees parallels with sola scriptura.  In both instances, Feyerabend thinks, partisans of the doctrines in question claim “success” by focusing their attention on cases they think confirm the “rule of faith” while dismissing problematic cases as relatively insignificant puzzles raised by heretics and other oddballs.  Though question-begging, this procedure seems reasonable to them because they are surrounded by a “community… which is already committed to a certain doctrine” (p. 38) and which thereby reinforces their perception that the doctrine is the one that is accepted by all reasonable people.  These communities inculcate a “party line” (p. 39) which determines how one perceives the weight of various objections, the significance of the relevant pieces of evidence, etc.  Hence the doctrines in question -- classical empiricism and sola scriptura -- “although logically vacuous, [are] by no means psychologically vacuous” (p. 38). 

(I’ve noted before -- for example, during the debate over Nagel’s Mind and Cosmos -- how contemporary appeals to the “success” of science as an argument for naturalism or scientism are similarly question-begging, but also have similarly powerful psychological support via the kind of groupthink Feyerabend is criticizing.)

Now, a critic might ask: Wouldn’t the Jesuit critique of sola scriptura apply to the Catholic position as well?  And wouldn’t Feyerabend’s proposed application of it to classical empiricism apply also to the Aristotelian conception of experience?  Indeed, wouldn’t this style of criticism undermine any proposed epistemological criteria, leading to a radical skepticism?  No, no, and no.  

Note first that there is no “sola” prefixed to the Catholic and Aristotelian positions, nor to many other possible epistemological positions.  Sola scriptura and early modern empiricism were both self-consciously revolutionary doctrines, intended decisively to rein in what their proponents thought to be epistemological excesses.  Hence they were formulated precisely so as to lay down an unambiguous line the crossing of which is strictly forbidden, thereby to take down in one fell swoop enormous bodies of doctrine (Catholic theology in the one case, Scholastic and rationalist metaphysics in the other).  They were, you might say, “weaponized” theses from the start.  That isn’t what is going on with positions like the Catholic one and the Aristotelian one.  To be sure, both clearly rule many things out, but neither was formulated with such polemical intent, and thus neither takes the form of a crisp and simple thesis that might lend itself to a charge of self-refutation -- of a weapon which might be wrestled from the wielder’s hand and immediately aimed back at him.  They aren’t trying to boil everything down to some tidy epistemological thesis which might be deployed as a cudgel against opponents, but rather trying precisely to capture the complexity of our epistemological situation, including the complexity inherent in appeals to revelation or experience.  Thus, if someone is going to accuse either position of somehow undermining itself, it will take considerable work to show exactly how it does so.

For another thing, there is a crucial feature of the sola scriptura and early modern empiricist positions that makes them open to the Jesuit/Feyerabend attack, but which the Catholic and Aristotelian positions lack -- namely, commitment to a “myth of the given,” as it has come to be called in discussions of empiricism.  In the case of early modern empiricism, the myth in question is the supposition that there is some basic level of sensory experiences whose significance is somehow built-in and graspable apart from any wider conceptual and epistemological context (as opposed to being intelligible only in light of a body of theory, or a tradition, or the practices of a linguistic community, or what have you).  Aristotelian epistemology not only does not commit itself to such a “given,” it denies that there is one.  In the case of sola scriptura, the myth is the supposition that there is a text whose exact contents and meaning are somehow evident from the text itself and thus knowable apart from any wider conceptual and epistemological context (as opposed to being intelligible only in light of a larger tradition of which the text is itself a part, or an authoritative interpreter, or what have you).  The Catholic position not only does not commit itself to such a scriptural “given,” it denies that there is one.

Now, the reason sola scriptura and early modern empiricism get themselves into trouble is that they purportedly limit themselves to the deliverances of a “given,” but where the existence of the purported “given” in question and the imperative to limit ourselves to it are not themselves knowable from the “given.”  This entails a kind of self-refutation to which doctrines that do not posit such a “given” in the first place are not subject.

Bas van Fraassen, commenting on Feyerabend in his article “Sola Experientia? Feyerabend’s Refutation of Classical Empiricism” (available in John Preston, Gonzalo Munévar, and David Lamb, eds., The Worst Enemy of Science? Essays in Memory of Paul Feyerabend), writes:

[T]he Jesuit argument does not lead to skepticism but only to a rejection of any position that posits a foundation representable as a text.  For we cannot draw on a text in any way without relying on something else, if only on our own language.  This is true equally whether we regard the text as being in our own language or as translated into our language.  But what we rely on is not itself representable as a text or body of information, so the same questions do not arise. (p. 33, emphasis added)

If either the Catholic position or the Aristotelian one “posit[ed] a foundation representable as a text,” then they would be open to the Jesuit/Feyerabend objection.  But that is precisely what they do not do.  The Aristotelian epistemological view does not conceive of “experience” in terms of a sensory “given.”  And the Catholic position does not merely posit a larger text or set of texts (one that would add the deuterocanonicals, statements found in the Church Fathers, decrees of various councils, etc.).  The trouble with texts is that you can never ask them what exactly they include, or what they mean, or how they are to be applied.  But you can ask such questions of an authoritative interpreter who stands outside the texts.  And such an interpreter -- in the form of an institutional Church -- is exactly what the Catholic position posits.

Anyway, I imagine Feyerabend might have sympathized with Ralph McInerny’s quip that “modern philosophy is the Reformation carried on by other means.”

255 comments:

  1. After all, even from a Catholic point of view the New Testament is the only corpus of texts that contains writings that were written by apostles.

    But it wouldn't be the only line of information about the teaching of the apostles; we also have the Apostolic Fathers who closely succeeded the apostles, second-century traditions about the apostles, attested practices that might go back to the apostles. There would be no need to say that these have the same authority as the Scriptures; if the concern genuinely is apostolic doctrine, a reasonable person would have to take into account all the evidence for the apostolic doctrine -- which certainly extends beyond Scripture. Thus there doesn't seem to be anything in this route that actually gets you the sola -- you can get Scripture as the primary authority for apostolic doctrine (which everyone accepts in some sense anyway), but it's completely unclear how you get to its being the only authority.

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  2. I have to agree with Brandon above. What was recently written above, while I think definitely a strong foundation and understanding for Church and Christian life, order and governance, does not redeem Sola scriptura as a dogma and a rule of Faith.

    The Great Commission
    …19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

    The Apostles were sent out to "make disciples of... nations", "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you". The reference is directly to Christ himself; not to the scripture alone. We have to go further and assume that everything Christ taught and commanded is explicitly included in the New Testament, with the added difficulty that that body had itself to be determined for what was to be included in it and what really was authentic. I don't know of any reason for believing that necessary assumption for the doctrine of Sola scriptura to work; i.e., the belief that everything Christ taught is explicitly included or contained in the written and received Scripture, which, itself, as a body of writing already requires and presupposed the authority and discernment of the Church as such.

    And as I said earlier, we do have cause from the Scripture to believe the Church has a unique authority in the Christian dispensation:


    1 Timothy 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

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  3. Brandon: “But it wouldn't be the only line of information about the teaching of the apostles; we also have the Apostolic Fathers who closely succeeded the apostles, second-century traditions about the apostles, attested practices that might go back to the apostles. There would be no need to say that these have the same authority as the Scriptures; if the concern genuinely is apostolic doctrine, a reasonable person would have to take into account all the evidence for the apostolic doctrine -- which certainly extends beyond Scripture. Thus there doesn't seem to be anything in this route that actually gets you the sola -- you can get Scripture as the primary authority for apostolic doctrine (which everyone accepts in some sense anyway), but it's completely unclear how you get to its being the only authority.”

    The apostles’ expectation of an imminent return of Christ (see Romans 13:11-12, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Hebrews 10:37, James 5:8 and 1 Peter 4:7) may provide an argument for the idea of “sola scriptura”. If Christ indeed had returned in the Apostolic Age, an idea against which from a theological point of view nothing speaks, there wouldn’t have been any post-Apostolic writings. Now one can argue that writings with respect to which it is possible that they were not written cannot be part of God’s revelation. Philosophically speaking if it is true that the New Testament writings are divinely inspired these writings exist necessarily whereas the post-Apostolic writings only exist contingently.

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  4. Patrick,

    I can make neither heads or tails of this argument, which seems rather bizarre. The particular modalities you'd have to be using for 'necessary' and 'contingent' would be very nonstandard, so I don't see how they are supposed to function in the argument, or, indeed, how they would work in general. Further, no matter what the apostles' expectation was, they did teach others and we do in fact have other evidence than Scripture as to what their teaching was, and thus no exclusion appears to arise -- it simply does not appear to matter what the modality is, since none of them could give you the sola of sola scriptura. Again, your argument even at best seems to get us only to 'primary authority', not 'only authority', for apostolic doctrine. Further, you would seem to run into the problem that the canon of the New Testament is in great part post-apostolic: the apostles did not write the New Testament and then send it to all the churches. They wrote a book here and book there, which was sent to this church and that church. The New Testament is formed by others collecting the works of the apostles -- a process that literally took centuries to hammer out properly. Thus on the picture you are painting, there is no actual New Testament: we just have various scattered and disparate witnesses to this or that aspect of the apostles' doctrine in response to this or that particular kind of occasion.

    Further, the post-apostolic in the relevant sense overlaps the apostolic: all of the Apostolic Fathers have lives overlapping those of the apostles, and the likely dates for the letter of Clement of Rome, or the possible dates for the earliest passages of the Didache, are still within the possible range of dates for when the Johannine writings were written. Thus the emphasis your argument puts on chronological period seems to work against its attempt to draw a sharp line.

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  5. "Further, you would seem to run into the problem that the canon of the New Testament is in great part post-apostolic: the apostles did not write the New Testament and then send it to all the churches. They wrote a book here and book there, which was sent to this church and that church. The New Testament is formed by others collecting the works of the apostles -- a process that literally took centuries to hammer out properly."

    Brandon makes a key point. The New Testament is composed mostly of *occasional* writings -- epistles written to a local church to address a particular controversy, or general epistles which expound on select themes as befit the circumstance. Even the Gospels, which attempt a more systematic coverage, make no claim to exhaust all doctrine (one Evangelist expressly denies it).

    Taking the canon as the full pie is, as far as I can tell, non-apostolic; it puts texts to a use which their authors never claimed for them. Scripture is God's Word no doubt and has a priority in the Church that is rightly esteemed. But it is more like the skeleton of doctrine, and it would be an odd thing to lop off an ear because it had no bones.

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  6. @David T:

    The first Apostles simply weren't concerned with the deep theology of the Trinity, having more pressing matters at hand. The full doctrine of the Trinity only developed later as Christians found the time to reflect on the deep meaning of the Incarnation.

    I agree with Patrick, in the sense that the Apostles did have an in depth understanding of the Trinity. In fact, I think they had to have a more in depth understanding then Nicea (we might have a different concept of "in depth" in mind though).

    If I were to rewrite your statements, I would say that the Apostles had the same and even greater understanding of the Trinity than the Nicean Fathers, but that the Apostles were simply not concerned in articulating it to specifically in order to reject Arius.

    I would say that the Gospel of John exactly is a reflection on the Incarnation, although the other Gospels have this as well.

    @Patrick

    If I understand the Calvinist point of view, the reason the Trinity is the correct interpretation from Scripture is because it is the only reasonable one. In other words, there is only one interpretation that "fits" all the data from Scripture, thus it is correct. However, if there are other possible interpretations to passages regarding other doctrines, then that doctrine is more of a pious opinion at best. Is this your position?

    Christi pax.

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  7. @Patrick:

    If Christ indeed had returned in the Apostolic Age, an idea against which from a theological point of view nothing speaks, there wouldn’t have been any post-Apostolic writings.

    And if He had returned fifteen minutes after His Ascension, there wouldn't have been a New Testament either. But He didn't, and there is.

    I don't see how this sort of thing is an argument against the authoritative nature of any particular text. Of course a text wouldn't be authoritative if it had never been written—and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

    What am I missing?

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  8. Whether or not the New Testament writings are divinely inspired does not depend on any decision concerning canonicity of writings that the Church has taken. If these writings are divinely inspired this would be true, even if they had never been granted the status of being part of the canon of Scripture. One might argue that without the Church we wouldn’t know which writings are divinely inspired, but it’s not that these writings wouldn’t be divinely inspired and thus be part of the canon of Scripture if the Church hadn’t granted them such a status.

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    1. I can see a Protestant arguing that we know that, say the Gospel of John is inspired, because its author was an Apostle.

      I think that Modern scholars don't sit well for Protestants because they mostly deny Apostolic origin of the New Testaments. With Apostolic Christians, we just can appeal to Tradition and the Church to justify our belief in the inspiration of the Scriptures, even if they weren't written by the Apostles directly.

      Christi pax.

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  9. Patrick, what do you make of St. Ignatius and St. Irenaeus, who teach Apostolic Succession? I think that St. Paul and St. John, teach it too, but how do you explain the Apostolic Fathers?

    It seems almost certain that the early Christians basically thought Bishop=Truth. As TOF points out, even the Arians and other early heretics thought so. The Gnostics of course denied it, which is why St. Ignatius and St. Irenaeus bring it up against them.

    The fact that St. Ignatius in particular was educated by St. John and appointed to Antioch by St. Peter seems to add to his credibility.

    Christi pax

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  10. Patrick,

    "If one replaces “Sola Scriptura” by “Sola Doctrina Apostolica” in view of passages such as Galatians 1:6-9 this objection no longer applies. One then can argue that “Sola Scriptura” follows from “Sola Doctrina Apostolica”."

    Yes and when you try to argue that, you would then run into the exact same problem. Rome and EO can agree to "Sola Doctrina Apostolica" - such a concept would of course include both written and unwritten Tradition which SS would exclude.

    Here are the issues I see with the SS position:

    It assumes 3 doctrines right off the bat that are based on Tradition, not Scripture. These are the identification of the extent and scope of the canon, that said canon is inerrant and closed, and public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. SS proponents seem to unwittingly put the cart before the horse and climb up ladders before kicking them.

    It then assumes a 4th - that any unwritten tradition operating in parallel with written tradition was at some point either converted to writing, or if never inscripturated is unnecessary and may be discarded, but again we don't see that in Scripture and nowhere in Scripture do we see the content of the faith limited to the written text of Scripture.

    Related to the fourth, we know the church was operating and functioning prior to and concurrently with the process of inscripturation (conservatively estimated to have begun around 45 AD and ending in 95 AD with Revelation). Yet we are never told in Scripture that once John penned Revelation the rule of faith would suddenly change to where anything that was unwritten suddenly became superfluous or could be discarded.

    Further, any appeal to Scripture to support SS then fails since SS wasn't operative during apostolic times by definition (as people like James White freely agree) - so no apostle could've meant to teach such when penning any particular verse - the apostles and Christ weren't OT SS'ists and viewed tradition as binding.

    What I do see in Scripture is Scripture claiming its authoritative. I see Scripture claiming unwritten tradition and practices are authoritative and to be received, passed down, and taught. I see Scripture affirming succession and laying of hands tied to the protection and passing of that Tradition. I see Scripture affirming the church operating and functioning prior to and during the process of inscripturation. What I don't see is the affirmation of SS as the rule of faith. So besides SS being inconsistent with its own claims which would be an indicator of falsehood, it also seems to bear the marks of being a manmade tradition.

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  11. Jeremy Taylor: “Patrick keeps ignoring my point about the difference between genuine innovations in the faith and adaptations of what is implicit or latent to changing circumstances. I wonder why.”

    If there are no genuine doctrinal innovations in the Roman Catholic Church this means that all the doctrines that the Roman Catholic Church has ever proclaimed were already believed in the early Church. To me this seems to be quite a bold claim. However, if one holds the view that genuine doctrinal innovations may be necessary due to changing circumstances I would like to hear what such circumstances could be.

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    1. @Patrick

      The essence of all Church doctrine was taught by the Apostles. They might not have used words like "ousia," but they taught the same doctrine regardless. Some, like Papal infalliblity, are logically deprived from principles already taught, and others, like the Trinity, were taught in analogies and implied from the direct teaching that 1)there is only one God, 2)the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are God. Eventually, false interpretation was forced onto these analogies, so more specific language was used.

      Christi pax.

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  12. @Patrick

    Sorry if it feels like we are ganging up on you :-)

    Christi pax.

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  13. Patrick,

    "If there are no genuine doctrinal innovations in the Roman Catholic Church this means that all the doctrines that the Roman Catholic Church has ever proclaimed were already believed in the early Church."

    Both Protestants and RCs hold to development of doctrine - it's unavoidable. But that does not mean DoD entails new or ongoing revelation. Ratzinger:

    "Before Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven was defined, all theological faculties in the world were consulted for their opinion. Our teachers’ answer was emphatically negative. What here became evident was the one-sidedness, not only of the historical, but also of the historicist method in theology. “Tradition” was identified with what could be proved on the basis of texts. Altaner, the patrologist from Würzburg (who also had come from Breslau), had proven in a scientifically persuasive manner that the doctrine of Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the fifth century; this doctrine, therefore, he argued, could not belong to the “apostolic tradition”. And this was his conclusion, which my teachers at Munich shared. This argument is compelling if you understand “tradition” strictly as the handing down of fixed formulas and texts. This was the position that our teachers represented. But if you conceive of “tradition” as the living process whereby the Holy Spirit introduces us to the fullness of truth and teaches us how to understand what previously we could still not grasp (cf. Jn 16:12-13), then subsequent “remembering” (cf. Jn 16:4, for instance) can come to recognize what it had not caught sight of previously and yet was already handed down in the original Word. But such a perspective was still quite unattainable by German theological thought."

    The early church did not have explicit and exhaustive knowledge of all of the deposit of faith - how could they given the deposit that by its nature is inexhaustible? - if that were true, there could never be any development and we'd expect the 1st century church to be a carbon copy of the 21st. But again, that position does not entail new revelation the apostles were unaware of. Newman:

    "What then is meant by the Depositum? is it a list of articles that can be numbered? no, it is a large philosophy; all parts of which are connected together, and in a certain sense correlative together, so that he who really knows one part, may be said to know all .... Thus the Apostles had the fullness of revealed knowledge, a fullness which they could as little realize to themselves, as the human mind, as such, can have all its thoughts present before it at once. They are elicited according to the occasion. A man of genius cannot go about with his genius in his hand: in an Apostle’s mind great part of his knowledge is from the nature of the case latent or implicit… I wish to hold that there is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an Apostle, if asked, would have been fully able to answer and would have answered, as the Church has answered, the one answering by inspiration, the other from its gift of infallibility; and that the Church never will be able to answer, or has been able to answer, what the Apostles could not answer ..."

    I presume you are Reformed. So if the WCF and other Reformed doctrine were presented to the Apostles in the 1st century - would they immediately accept it, or would they perhaps have to reflect and think on it before accepting it?

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  14. Patrick & David T-- You might take a look at John Goldingay's new book 'Do We Really Need the New Testament?' or something similar. Having done so, it will be easier to think of the NT as completing the OT and guiding the reader back into its deeper meaning, rather than only as a pamphlet series that is beyond the Israelite past but not yet in the fullness of the Church.

    Indeed, there are those such as Tom Wright (aka N.T. Wright) who agree with Nicaea-Constantinople and Chalcedon, but who think that the pre-patristic Judaic idiom said it all better. He's not a stranger in the Vatican--

    http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Vatican_Amor_Dei.htm

    http://ncronline.org/news/synod-anglican-bishop-star-show

    http://www.catholicbiblesblog.com/2009/01/nt-wright-synod-of-bishops-in-rome.html

    --but he is nearer to Patrick's position than I am. Here, as he reflects on Spirit, Law, Word, Glory, and Wisdom, you can begin to see why--

    "This God was both other than the world and continually active within it. The words 'transcendent' and 'immanent,' we should note, are pointers to this double belief, but do not clarify it much. Because this God is thus simultaneously other than his people and present with them, Jews of Jesus’ day had developed several ways of speaking about the activity of this God in which they attempted to hold together, because they dared not separate, these twin truths. Emboldened by deep-rooted traditions, they explored what appears to us a strange, swirling sense of a rhythm of mutual relations within the very being of the one God: a to-and-fro, a give-and-take, a command-and-obey, a sense of love poured out and love received. God’s Spirit broods over the waters, God’s Word goes forth to produce new life, God’s Law guides his people, God’s Presence or Glory dwells with them in fiery cloud, in tabernacle and temple. These four ways of speaking moved to and fro from metaphor to trembling reality-claim and back again. They enabled Jews to speak simultaneously of God’s sovereign supremacy and his intimate presence, of his unapproachable holiness and his self-giving compassionate love.

    "Best known of all is perhaps a fifth. God’s Wisdom is his handmaid in creation, the firstborn of his works, his chief of staff, his delight. God’s Wisdom is another way of talking about God present with his people in the checkered careers of the patriarchs and particularly in the events of the Exodus. Wisdom becomes closely aligned thereby with Torah and Shekinah. Through the Lady Wisdom of Proverbs 1-8, the creator has fashioned everything, especially the human race. To embrace Wisdom is therefore to discover the secret of being truly human, of reflecting God’s image.

    "...there were five ways (not to be confused with Aquinas’ five Ways!) in which second-Temple Jews could and did speak of the activity of the one God within the world, and particularly within Israel, without of course compromising their monotheism. I cannot stress too strongly that first century Judaism had at its heart what we can and must call several incarnational symbols, not least the Torah, but particularly the Temple. And, though this point has been routinely ignored by systematic theologians from the second century to the twentieth, it is precisely in terms of Torah and Temple that the earthly Jesus acted symbolically and spoke cryptically to define his mission and hint at his own self understanding.

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  15. Continuing--

    "Once we recognize, the 'five ways' of speaking about God-at-work-in-the-world in first-century Judaism—something which, as I must stress, neither the study of the OT nor the study of the Fathers would have taught me—then it becomes obvious that the key central christological passages of the NT are all heavily dependent on precisely this way of thinking. They offer a very high, completely Jewish, and extremely early christology,something that is still routinely dismissed as impossible, both at the scholarly and the popular level.

    "This was not a matter, as has often been suggested, of the early Christians haphazardly grabbing at every title of honor they could think of and throwing them at Jesus in the hope that some of it might make some sense, rather like a modernist painter hurling paint at a canvas from twenty paces and then standing back to see if it said anything to him. Rather, all the evidence points to serious and disciplined theological thought on the part of the very earliest Christians. Refusing to contemplate any god other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they found themselves drawn by the Spirit to use language of Jesus, and indeed of the Spirit, which was drawn from the Jewish traditions and traditional ways of reading scripture. This language fit so well and enabled them to say so many things by way of worship, mission, proclamation, and ethics that they must have been daily encouraged to pursue the same line of thought, to turn it into hymns and layers and creedal formulae, discovering and celebrating a new dimension of something they already knew like someone who had only known melody suddenly discovering harmony. The result of all this explosion of exciting but, as I have suggested, focused and disciplined thinking about Jesus and the Spirit is that, in effect, the NT writers offer an incipient trinitarian theology without needing to use any of the technical terms that later centuries would adopt for the same purpose. What is more, when we understand how their language works, we discover that it actually does the job considerably better than the later formulations...

    "My suggestion, then, is that the NT writers, despite what has been said about them again and again within post-Enlightenment biblical scholarship, can be shown to be
    expressing a fully, if from our viewpoint incipient, trinitarian theology, and to be doing so as a fresh and creative variation from within, not an abandonment of, their Second Temple Jewish god-view."

    http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_JIG.htm

    If Wright is correct, then there is content in the 'apostolic deposit' yet to be unpacked, and it cannot be seen simply as an early stage of the Church we know.

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    1. @Anonymous

      Beautiful passage! As someone who converted the Christianity through Ultra-Orthodox Judaism (I never converted though), when I read text such as the Gospel of John, I find it ozzing with Jewishness.

      One of my favorite parallels is with St. Paul's teaching on the "Spirit vs the Flesh" which is basically the same concept as the conflict between the yetzer-hatov vs the yetzer-hara in Orthodox Judaism.

      The main reason I'm Catholic (and have a discuss of Protestantism) is because Protestant often denies the aspects of Catholicism that are shared with Rabbinical Judaism. From my point of view, the Church and Rabbinical Jews are the two successors of second-Temple Judaism.

      I've often hear Mr. Wright praised by one of the priests at the Oratory I visit, and he's often compared with C.S. Lewis, as both write about what Catholics and Protestant share in common (mere Christianity).

      Now, here's the question: how does Wright here in conflict with Catholic teaching? Isn't Wright a high-church Anglican anyway (like Lewis).

      Christi pax.

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  16. Whether or not the New Testament writings are divinely inspired does not depend on any decision concerning canonicity of writings that the Church has taken.

    Since everything you said in the comment is, in fact, the Catholic view as well, it is not relevant to the point, and merely suggests more strongly that your argument cannot actually deliver any kind of sola scriptura, or indeed, any kind of account of Scripture strong enough to be inconsistent with a Catholic, or a generic Catholic-Orthodox, account of Scripture.

    Given the emphasis your argument puts on apostolic doctrine, however, it is relevant to recognize that it requires we be talking about scattered occasional writings that are witnesses to various aspects of apostolic doctrine and not with the New Testament as we usually think of it, as at least a compendium of apostolic doctrine as a whole. (And certainly not with the New Testament taken in the strong sense as a unified set of writings, each of which contributes something essential and valuable to the whole.) Among other things, recognizing this intensifies the problem with drawing any sharp line in authority between what ended up in the New Testament and what is external to it.

    In addition, what your argument needs to establish is not that Scripture is divinely inspired -- your argument so far actually has not shown this, but it doesn't need to because it is generally agreed upon -- but that the authority of Scripture as to apostolic doctrine admits of no supplementation by other authority (thus getting you the sola of sola scriptura). Your argument so far, which takes the authority of Scripture to be bound to its being a witness of apostolic teaching, cannot rule out other witnesses of apostolic teaching (including, for instance, the witness of the Church in recognizing and preserving these writings as apostolic).

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  17. mjn: “The New Testament is composed mostly of *occasional* writings -- epistles written to a local church to address a particular controversy, or general epistles which expound on select themes as befit the circumstance.”

    The fact that the New Testament is composed mostly of occasional writings is compatible with the view that it contains the complete apostles’ teaching.

    mjn: “Even the Gospels, which attempt a more systematic coverage, make no claim to exhaust all doctrine (one Evangelist expressly denies it).”

    The passages John 20:30 and 21:25 don’t say that the respective Gospel doesn’t exhaust all doctrine, but that it does not tell everything Jesus DID.

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    1. @Patrick:

      Remember that there are many Thomists that would agree with you, but specify that Scripture contains all Apostolic doctrine materially

      Christi pax.

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  18. Brandon: “In addition, what your argument needs to establish is not that Scripture is divinely inspired -- your argument so far actually has not shown this, but it doesn't need to because it is generally agreed upon -- but that the authority of Scripture as to apostolic doctrine admits of no supplementation by other authority (thus getting you the sola of sola scriptura). Your argument so far, which takes the authority of Scripture to be bound to its being a witness of apostolic teaching, cannot rule out other witnesses of apostolic teaching (including, for instance, the witness of the Church in recognizing and preserving these writings as apostolic).”

    I wonder if the burden of proof is on the one holding the idea of “sola scriptura” and not on the one rejecting it. After all the view that the writings of an apostle are reliable sources for this apostle’s teachings should be undisputed, whereas the view that the writings of someone who was not an apostle are nevertheless reliable sources of the apostles’ teaching is in my view in need of justification.

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  19. Patrick,

    Burdens of proof are irrelevant; the conclusion you've specifically said you were trying to get with your argument was sola scriptura, and so the only question of significance is whether and how the argument gets to the conclusion. Your argument so far, as noted previously, does not appear to establish any kind of sola at all; most of it, in fact, just reiterates things that are accepted by people who oppose sola scriptura, as you yourself have just said.

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  20. The only possible danger I see with what Mr. Wright has said is that the Church does have a positive charism or gift of truth and, of course, Jewish modes of thought - even those that are inspired - will be quite strange and foreign to other cultures who were, of course, not forced in the cauldron, so to speak, of the Covenant.

    The Church's mission to the Gentiles could not be realized if she could not mediate between cultures and their philosophies. I don't believe it is fair to say the Church was losing something or anything of the original sense, meaning or understanding (without denying at all the unique strength and truth of original Judaic scriptural thought modes and typology, for example) when she articulates the meaning of these things to different and contemporary cultures. Generally speaking, Philosophy (the Law of Reason) is to/for 'the Greek' what the Torah is to/for the Jew or Judaism.

    The Church's mission is at least in part to guard the deposit of Faith. This can hardly be possible if she doesn't know not only what that deposit but further what it means for peoples in varying circumstances and situations and at different times.

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    1. @Timocrates

      The Church teaches that the Councils are infallible, but that Scripture is inspired. At first, they seem like the same idea, but in reality they are radically different. Infallible means "not-fallible," or protected from error. The Councils can never be wrong, but they might using wording that isn't the best.

      Scripture, on the other hand, is Inspired, which means that God specifically arrange Scripture in a certain way, while with the Councils, God let humans do the arranging, and just made sure that they didn't arrange it wrong. However, they could express Doctrine confusingly.

      Does that make sense?

      Christi pax.

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  21. Sorry, above should be read: "not formed in the cauldron, so to speak, of the Covenant."

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  22. @ Daniel D.D.,

    Yes it makes sense but I would still insist that the Church has a positive gift for guarding/defending and expounding/teaching the truth. She really has a positive gift for this and that to the end of facilitating the best understanding.

    Also I don't think that the Church ceases to be inspired by the Holy Spirit in any way. The above-mentioned gift of truth comes from the Holy Spirit. "Inspired" does not have to be restricted to public revelation; though, of course, for that to be at all reliable it is difficult to conceive how it could ever not be actually inspired.

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  23. In other words, Daniel D.D., the Church just is inspired via the presence and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. She is also holy for this same reason or, we might say, she cannot fail to be inspired if she is really holy.

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  24. Patrick

    You ignored the very example I used to illustrate my point: the Nicene Creed. As Daniel D. alluded to, the formulation of the creed was an innovation but not a substantial one (or so orthodox Christians believe). The priesthood is another instance. It is clear from the New Testament and Apostolic Fathers that the Apostles and then their successors, the bishops, had sacramental authority within the Church, and priests are a prolongation of them that arose to deal with the expanding numbers and spread of the Church. Really, there are any number of ways the Church can adapt doctrine or practice to circumstances without necessarily changing its essence. I don't see how you have dealt with this fact. An important part of your argument relies on such change being always substantial.

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  25. As the apostles obviously expected the imminent return of Christ it seems to me rather unlikely that they would have held the doctrine of Apostolic Succession, as this doctrine presupposes the view that the Church remains on Earth for a longer period.

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  26. And yet we have the record of the Apostolic Fathers and the earliest generations to suggest otherwise. Besides, Apostolic succession is not just about temporal continuity but also geographic expansion. Moreover, it seems strange one would insist on an obviously incorrect belief - that Christ would soon return. This would surely undermine your claims about doctrines not changing.

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  27. With respect to doctrinal matters the Roman Catholic Church gives me the impression of being, figuratively speaking, a permanent construction site. In the second millenium there were 13 councils, which means that on average every about 80 years there was a new council. In 1870 the First Vatican Council took place, but not even a hundred years later there was obviously a need for yet another council. The Roman Catholic Church seems to feel urged to constantly adapt its doctrines to new circumstances. It seems to me that the Roman Catholic Church is driven by circumstances rather than by the Holy Spirit.

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    1. @Patrick

      When did circumstance become opposed to the Spirit?

      As I explained above, God, just as He is so powerful that He can use evil to bring out greater good, is so powerful that He can use heretical doctrine of the times to bring out true doctrine. Just as the metalworker adds pressure from outside the key to shape it in order to fit the door, the Spirit uses hersey from outside the Church to shape Her dogma, which opens the door to eternal life.

      And anyway, do you think Florence was driven by circumstance? Do you think Trent? I can understand you saying the both Vatican Councils were driven by an attempt to speak to the world (especially Vatican II), but most were not like that. If Trent is driven by circumstances, than ALL Councils are driven by circumstances.

      Christi pax.

      Delete
  28. Hi Patrick,

    With respect, your impression says something about you, rather than anything about the arguments presented. Was this the intention?

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  29. I am (Anglo-) Orthodox, not Catholic.

    Anyway, what you have just wrote, aside from evading most of my points, really is not a proper attempt at analysing what can be adapted to circumstance (or, as the example of some of the early Church's apparent beliefs about the imminent end of the world suggests, in a few cases even changed) and how the Roman Church deals with the issue.

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  30. In the second millenium there were 13 councils, which means that on average every about 80 years there was a new council.


    I'm not sure why you keep focusing on the second millenium. There were one Apostolic Council (mentioned in Acts) and eight ecumenical councils in the first millenium, and that millenium includes eras in which Christianity was illegal and and at times actively persecuted. It's also without anything like the Council of Constance explicitly requiring that the next ecumenical council be called within the next few years to review how things were going. Your argument also overlooks the fact that most of the councils in the second millenium were disciplinary, not doctrinal, and that most of the doctrinal decisions just consist of identifying errors.

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  31. Without getting into the complexities of all of the other Catholic vs. Protestant debates above, I was shocked to see two different commenters claim that Jesus embraced the "oral Torah" of the Pharisees. It is true that many of his theological intepretations (e.g. concerning the Resurrection) were closer to the Pharisees than the Sadducces). But even a very superficial reading of the Gospels indicates that Jesus was a harsh critic of the "Oral Torah" and that he frequently rebuked the Pharisees, not just for hypocrisy, but also for holding to their traditions which contradicted the inspired (Old Testament) Scriptures.

    Examples: Matt 12:1-14, 15:1-91, 16:5-12, 23 + parallel passages such as Mark 7.

    (Possible counterevidence in Matt 23:2-3, but I think Jesus is just telling people to go along with the rabbinic intepretations due to their leadership role in the community, not actually endorsing their positions, which Matthew 23:4 suggests are too harsh for people anyway.)

    Thus, it seems that Christ himself taught some doctrine indicating some sort of prioritiy of Scripture over Tradition, at least within his own Jewish context (one could also support this from Deut 4:2 or Proverbs 30:6). "Sola Scriptura" might be too strong a formulation to be internally consistent. But that does not allow us to neglect the clear teachings of Christ that sometimes even entrenched traditions are bad and wrong and need to be corrected through Scripture.

    (Obviously such a doctrine must be cashed out in a way that allows new revelation or Scripture to occur after these passages were written. Nor do I think the implication of these passages is that the oral teaching of a prophet or apostle is nonbining until such time as it is written down, although I personally would expect unwritten oral teachings to become degraded over the course of a few generations.)

    The key question is how to balance this against the various promises--also from the lips of the Lord---that the Church would be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

    One could try to argue that Christ's warnings applied ONLY to rabbinic Jews, and not to the successors of the apostles. But if reading the Scripture with the mind of the Church means anything at all, it surely includes the idea that we should interpret the major themes in Christ's teaching as relevant to present day Christianity, rather than being something only applicable for a couple years after they were given.

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    1. @Aron

      There is a difference between the Talmud and the Oral Torah. The Oral Torah is mostly information regarding Temple sacrifices, and extra information on the Law, and is written in the Talmud in the section called the Mishnah. Around the Mishnah (and I mean literally: the Oral Laws of Moses are written in the center of the page) we have the Rabbinical commentary called the Gamera (which are written around the Mishnah), which is not infallible or from Moses, but rather contradictory writings on interpretations of the Torah by Rabbis (there are commentaries on commentaries on commentaries).

      Furthermore, Jesus didn't disagree with the Pharisees' doctrine, but on their emphasis. They decided to place, for example, "do not work on the Sabbath day" above "love your neighbor as yourself," and this is where the conflict lies (along with the Hypocrisy of the Pharisees').

      Remember, Christ straight out says that the Pharisees' "sit in the seat of Moses" (just as Pope Francis sits in the seat of Peter), telling the Jews to listen to what they teach, (and follow them in everythibg but sin), and so I believe that the Pharisaical Tradition is the correct Jewish tradition, because Messiah said so. Of course, Christ has fillfiled the Torah and the teaching authroity of Moses.

      The Oral Torah isn't of much use to a Christian anymore, as most of it regarded Temple information which has become obsolete, but it is of Divine origin.

      A Christian would still find some value in the Talmud, though, not only to understand the Jewishness of the Apostles, but also because the Rabbis record (and mock) information about Jesus's actions and some of the acts of the Apostles, which often corresponds to the Gospels and Acts. For example, they mock Jesus by calling Him a (paraphrasing) "heretic that was so bad they put to death on the Passover!" They also record some of Jesus's and His disicples miracles (which are not recorded in Acts), but (just like in the Gospels) attribute them to evil spirits. This mocking of Jesus got them in trouble during the Medieval period, where kingdoms like France would burn the Talmud for this, and so many Medieval to Modern Talmuds just remove the writings about Jesus altogether (there are two types: the Babylonian and the Jerselem, with the Babylonian being the one usually talked out).

      Christi pax.

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    2. SpellCheck decided to place "Gemera" rather than "Gamara."

      Christi pax.

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    3. Darn it. It's "Gemara!" Urrrrg! Gemara Gemara Gemara

      Delete
  32. Aron,

    Is it not odd, then, that Jesus did not reveal the New Testament personally, like a Christian Quran?

    It is also interesting that the New Testament quotes about ten times as much from the Septuagint, including the deuterocanonical work, than the original Hebrew Torah, if it was the letter of the written Torah that most preoccupied Jesus.

    Can it not just as easily be argued it was that the Pharisee's deviated from he spirit of the Torah and the whole teachings of earlier Judaism, rather than Jesus was preoccupied with there deviating from the Scripture per se.

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  33. The Roman Catholic Church seems to feel urged to constantly adapt its doctrines to new circumstances. It seems to me that the Roman Catholic Church is driven by circumstances rather than by the Holy Spirit.

    Patrick, I think those two sentences betray a profound disharmony. As the Old Testament and the New both show, God is in control of history and chooses to "write" into events and circumstances themselves preparatory background for new teaching. As St. Paul (and after him St. Augustine) tells us, He used the recurrent faithlessness of the Jews to show that without the sacraments, i.e. without the "law of grace", The Law could not save. He also prepared the revelation of Christ as king by using King David as a type of the Christ to come. Therefore, to say that "the Church [the people of God] is driven by the Holy Spirit" simply cannot exclude "the Church is driven by circumstances".

    And, indeed, as Moses and the prophets did throughout over 1000 years, they constantly developed the teaching of God as circumstances proved the need for development and clarification. Moses didn't hand over the entirety of all of the rules and procedures in one act, he did it piecemeal. The feast and ceremonial of Passover was given before the feast and ceremonial of Hanukkah, which had to wait for the event of the RE-dedication of the temple, obviously AFTER the temple was built and then ruined and then rebuilt and then desecrated...all circumstances necessarily preparatory to the re-dedication.

    It can sometimes be difficult to distinguish between, for example, BRAND NEW teaching, and adaption of old teaching to circumstance. But that should not dissuade us from the reality that these are indeed distinct kinds of things, and that the latter is not even slightly improper. The Church recognizes in "circumstance" the concrete needs to understand and state clearly what the Holy Spirit had before veiled in obscure parts of revelation. That we "knew" it in veiled manner before "circumstances" demanded more doesn't mean we had ever stated it clearly. And stating it clearly is not in any way detracting from the revelation from which we draw our understanding.

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  34. I think also it is a bad habit of thought (for Catholics at least) to separate Sacred Scripture from Sacred Tradition, as if they were too different things. They are most definitely not in practice. The Scriptures are themselves received and handed on with the approval of the Church from generation to generation and, in practice, have their authority for the Christian in the first place exactly on account of that Christian tradition of receiving, maintaining and handing on the New and Old Testaments. Few people could or ever even do piecemeal together the Bible after looking at them and judging them individually and then collecting them together as certainly being inspired by God. Indeed, even the contents of each book would otherwise need to be judged in this way. That simply never happens. It was already on the basis of the authority of the Church coupled with Sacred Tradition that, e.g., Martin Luther himself received as sacred and inspired the most part of the Bible. But indeed, the danger here in his own logic already began to manifest itself when he took it upon himself to consider removing certain books altogether or reducing their status because he didn't believe they conformed to his own understanding of sacred or Christian doctrine.

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  35. Cletus van Damme: “Both Protestants and RCs hold to development of doctrine - it's unavoidable.”

    I don’t think that the development of doctrine is unavoidable. One may arrive at a deeper understanding of a doctrine, but this is not the same as the devolpment of the doctrine.

    Cletus van Damme: [Ratzinger:] “Altaner, the patrologist from Würzburg (who also had come from Breslau), had proven in a scientifically persuasive manner that the doctrine of Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the fifth century; this doctrine, therefore, he argued, could not belong to the “apostolic tradition”. And this was his conclusion, which my teachers at Munich shared. This argument is compelling if you understand “tradition” strictly as the handing down of fixed formulas and texts. This was the position that our teachers represented. But if you conceive of “tradition” as the living process whereby the Holy Spirit introduces us to the fullness of truth and teaches us how to understand what previously we could still not grasp (cf. Jn 16:12-13), then subsequent “remembering” (cf. Jn 16:4, for instance) can come to recognize what it had not caught sight of previously and yet was already handed down in the original Word.”

    The idea that the early Christians didn’t hold the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary because they couldn’t grasp it seems to me quite strange. I don’t see why we should be in a better position to grasp this doctrine than were the early Christians, especially as it is a doctrine that in my view is not difficult to grasp.

    I simply cannot understand why Christians living in the 21st century should not hold the same doctrines that the Christians in the first century were supposed to hold. If the apostolic teaching was sufficient for them, why shouldn’t it be sufficient for us?

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  36. @ Patrick,

    I can't see why you think the argument you quoted would mean Christians today do not or would not hold the same doctrines the Apostles' did. The development of doctrine is not an abandonment of doctrine nor does it entail this.

    I think (presumably a) Cardinal Ratzinger was trying to argue that the original Word contains 'the fullness of truth' already in itself but that we, being human, need time to flush this out. Indeed, it is quite unlikely that we even could even given infinite time complete grasp all the meaning of the Word, given God's very nature contrasted to ours. The revelation of Christ for the Christian is just the revelation of God himself. How could we possibly understand everything there was to know? Further, there is no reason that I know of for us not over time to realize more and more something of God's infinite greatness and goodness without, of course, ever being able to in any way exhaust it.

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  37. Timocrates writes:

    I think (presumably a) Cardinal Ratzinger was trying to argue that the original Word contains 'the fullness of truth' already in itself but that we, being human, need time to [flesh] this out.

    Which is precisely the relevant (and original) meaning of the word develop ("unfold, unfurl, reveal the hidden or implicit meaning(s) of").

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  38. I simply cannot understand why Christians living in the 21st century should not hold the same doctrines that the Christians in the first century were supposed to hold. If the apostolic teaching was sufficient for them, why shouldn’t it be sufficient for us?

    But you keep insisting that the apostles taught that the return of Christ was imminent in their day. Are you making an exception for this doctrine, or do you genuinely think all Christians should hold that Christ's return was a few decades after the resurrection?

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  39. I came late to this discussion and don't have time to read all the comments but I just wanted to make sure that a few points are made: (1) Sola scriptura does not mean what it literally says; it was a slogan of the Reformation and should be read as a slogan rather than a full expression of anyone's position. (2) Some Protestants are Aristotelian realists so one cannot use Aristotelian arguments against all Protestants.

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    1. @R Gillmann

      I was once told that what Luther meant by "sola Scriptura" is better expressed as "Creed alone."

      Also, "sola Scriptura" makes sense as a principle of reforming the Catholic Church. Claiming that we should bring Church practices more in line with Scripture is well founded in an age of superstitious devotionals (be honest; Catholics can be superstitious. That's just what happens when you have a religion for everyone, including the uneducated).

      Christi pax.

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    2. The problem is that the reformers stop trying to reform the Catholic Church, and instead started their own religion, claiming that the Catholic Church, the one Christ founded, failed.

      No wonder it took only two centuries, after 10 centuries of a strong Christian culture, for the West to depending into madness and unbelief.

      "You shall know them by their fruits."

      Christi pax.

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    3. "Descend" not "depending"

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  40. Daniel-- N(icholas) T(homas) "Tom" Wright was the Bishop of Durham in the Church of England and the House of Lords, but is now a research professor of the New Testament in St Mary's College, St Andrew's University, Scotland. Theologically, he views himself as a Reformed evangelical, although one who is well within the Anglican tradition in such things as ministry, liturgy, sacraments, etc. As a proponent of the New Perspective on Paul, he denies Martin Luther's interpretation of St Paul's view of justification. Some of his Reformed critics view his own interpretation of this as Tridentine, but that seems a stretch. He has said that he looked for some sort of scriptural rationale for the veneration of St Mary, but did not find one. Perhaps while playing golf at the Old Course near her college, something will occur to him.

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  41. Dr. Feser or anyone else, I seem to remember that someone here linked a blog post to a message board about dogmatic theology. So would someone re-post that link if it's here or tell me where to find it? Thanks.

    Bill

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  42. It is divinely inspired "

    That's where are problem is

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  43. Petronius,

    According to the Catholic position, God will judge each of us according to our own culpability. Searching the truth with intellectual honesty will greatly reduce our culpability when we are in error. Indifference or stubbornness will greatly increase our culpability. Also, minor doctrinal differences will not cast you into hell (which is not to say they are not important). I think Pascal's Wager has many flaws, but the main premise (that it is a sort of bet of extreme importance with drastic consequences) is pretty rock solid. Obviously your belief or disbelief will permeate every aspect of your life. If you genuinely search for the truth and are open to correction, you should have no problem being corrected by God at your judgement. If you are completely fixated on your own pride in being correct, then you will end up effectively telling God to go to Hell when he tries to correct you and in so doing will send yourself there.

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