After my
recent series of long posts on sola
scriptura (here,
here,
and here),
I fear that you, dear reader, may be starting to feel as burned out on the
topic as I do. But one final post is in
order, both because there are a couple of further points I think worth making,
and because Andrew Fulford at The Calvinist International has
now posted a rejoinder to my response to him. And as it happens, what I have to say about
his latest article dovetails somewhat with what I was going to say anyway. (Be warned that the post to follow is pretty
long. But it’s also the last post I hope
to write on this topic for a long while.)
Following
Feyerabend, I’ve been comparing sola
scriptura to early modern empiricism.
Let’s pursue the analogy a little further and consider two specific
parallels between the doctrines. First,
both face a fatal dilemma of being either self-defeating or vacuous. Second, each is committed to a reductionism
which crudely distorts the very epistemic criterion it claims zealously to
uphold. Let’s consider these issues in
turn.
Either self-refuting or vacuous
Modern
empiricism hoped sharply to delimit the boundaries of speculative reason in a
way that would decisively undermine (what empiricists regarded as) the excesses
of Scholastic and rationalist metaphysics.
Principles like Hume’s Fork -- the thesis that any meaningful
proposition must concern either “relations of ideas” or “matters of fact” -- seemed
at first glance formidable weapons in the empiricist arsenal. The key theses of Scholastic and rationalist
metaphysics appear to be neither true by virtue of the relations of the ideas
they express, nor knowable the way ordinary empirical matters of fact are. Thus we may as well “commit them to the
flames,” as Hume recommended. A crisp
and clear refutation of traditional metaphysics, yes?
Well, no,
actually, for there are several serious problems with Hume’s Fork. First, why should anyone find the principle
remotely plausible in the first place who isn’t already committed to the
background empiricist picture of human knowledge that informs it -- as, of
course, Scholastics and rationalists are not?
From the point of view of those against whom the principle was directed,
then, it seems manifestly a question-begging non-starter. Second, there are areas of knowledge affirmed
by both empiricists and their enemies for which Hume’s Fork cannot plausibly
account. In particular, truths of logic
and mathematics are notoriously difficult to make sense of in terms of either
Hume’s “relations of ideas” or “matters of fact.” Third, taken at face value the principle is
obviously self-refuting. For Hume’s Fork
is not itself either true by virtue
of the relations of the ideas it expresses, nor knowable the way ordinary
empirical matters of fact are. Hence, by
its own standard, it would have to be rejected as meaningless. Or if it is not meaningless, that can only be
because it presupposes precisely the third, metaphysical sort of perspective
that it purports to rule out.
Later
successors to Hume’s Fork -- such as the logical positivist’s principle of
verifiability, or the contemporary naturalist’s thesis that respectable
metaphysical propositions would have to be either claims of empirical science
or matters of “conceptual analysis” -- face exactly the same sorts of
problems. (For discussion, see chapter 0
of Scholastic
Metaphysics. I’ve also discussed
the problems facing contemporary naturalist riffs on Hume’s principle in
earlier articles online, here,
here,
and here.)
Now, in
response to such objections, empiricists and naturalists often pull back from
the face value reading of principles like Hume’s and propose that what they are
offering instead is, or is better read as, something much more modest. It isn’t that the empiricist is boldly
claiming to be able decisively to refute the claims of traditional metaphysics,
or dogmatically insisting that there can be no meaningful or justifiable
propositions other than the two kinds that Hume or a positivist would
recognize. Rather (so it is suggested)
the empiricist principles are best read merely as cautions against metaphysical
overreach and counsels to epistemological modesty. They provide something like a burden of proof
which any respectable metaphysics ought to try to reach, insofar as theories
which respect empiricist or naturalist scruples have shown greater “success”
than their rationalist or Scholastic rivals.
Which all sounds innocuous and reasonable.
Except that
it is in fact entirely arbitrary, dogmatic, and question-begging. Again, any attempt to spell out the two sorts
of domain that early modern empiricists and their contemporary successors are
willing to recognize -- on the one hand, “relations of ideas,” or “analytic
truths,” or “conceptual analysis” or some variation thereof; and on the other
hand, “matters of fact,” or “synthetic propositions,” or claims of natural
science, or something along those lines -- presupposes a third perspective, over and above these two, from which they can be
surveyed. And again, logic and
mathematics remain as difficult to fit into either variation of the two as they
were in Hume’s day. So why on earth should anyone for a moment
take seriously the proposal that we should try to confine ourselves as far as
we can, even in a less dogmatic way than Hume does, to the two domains in
question? We already know that they do not exhaust the territory. It’s like saying: “Sure, we now know that
North and South America, and Australia too, exist. But still, for reasons of parsimony, modesty,
etc. let’s try as far as we can to confine our maps and globes to picturing
Europe, Africa, and Asia.”
Nor does it
help for a moment to appeal (as is commonly done these days) to the purportedly
greater “success” or “fruitfulness” of the sorts of theories empiricists and
naturalists are comfortable with. For
what are the criteria by which “success” or “fruitfulness” are to be
determined? Consider the Aristotelian
theory of act and potency. We Thomistic
metaphysicians would argue that it is absolutely indispensible to making sense
of the entire range of metaphysical issues -- change, multiplicity, causation,
substance, essence, existence, you name it.
A book like this
one can be read as one long argument for the “success” and “fruitfulness”
of the theory of act and potency.
Of course,
the contemporary naturalist or empiricist will object that this is not the kind
of “success” or “fruitfulness” that he has in mind. What he has in mind is rather the kind of
predictive power and technological application that a good scientific theory
possesses. But of course, whether these
are the only criteria for accepting a
theory -- including a metaphysical theory -- is precisely part of what is at
issue between empiricists and naturalists on the one hand and their Scholastic
and rationalist critics on the other. Why
on earth should those be the only
criteria by which we judge the “success” or “fruitfulness” even of a metaphysical
theory -- especially when, again, empiricism and naturalism themselves could
not survive such a test, and when they make use of knowledge (of logic and
mathematics) which is not plausibly analyzable in terms of the proposed
criterion? What non-question-begging
reason could there possibly be for so confining ourselves?
The only motivation for the purportedly more
modest and reasonable form of empiricism or naturalism appears to be to find a
way to avoid having to commit oneself to the metaphysical theses empiricists
and naturalists don’t like, without falling into the self-refutation problem
that afflicts principles like Hume’s Fork or the principle of
verifiability. That is to say, it is
entirely ad hoc and devoid of
non-question-begging support. Philosophically
speaking, it simply floats in mid-air, unjustified and unjustifiable. It is nothing more than an expression of prejudice against traditional metaphysics, rather
than any principled grounds for rejecting
traditional metaphysics. And the only
way to avoid these problems would be to provide robust metaphysical argumentation of exactly the kind the position is seeking
to avoid -- which would make the whole position self-defeating and pointless.
(We’ve seen this problem arise in some recent defenses of naturalism, e.g. here
and here.)
Now, I
maintain that sola scriptura faces exactly the same sorts of problems. Just as Hume’s Fork was intended to curb the
purported excesses of traditional metaphysics, so too was sola scriptura intended to curb the purported excesses of Catholic
theology. And as with Hume’s Fork, sola scriptura appears at first glance to
provide a crisp and clear criterion for testing the claims to which it was
meant to be applied. But on closer
inspection, sola scriptura taken at
face value is also subject to precisely the same sorts of objections that
afflict Hume’s principle.
First, why
on earth should anyone take seriously the sola
scriptura criterion in the first place?
Why should we affirm “scripture alone” as opposed to “Paul’s epistles
alone” or “John 3:16 alone” or “the Gospels alone” or “scripture plus the
Church Fathers alone” or “scripture plus the first seven ecumenical councils
alone” or “scripture plus the councils plus the teachings of the first ten
popes alone” or “scripture plus the letters of Ignatius alone” -- or any of a
number of other possible ways of gerrymandering the various sources of
authority that the Church had traditionally recognized prior to Luther? And even if we did affirm “scripture alone,”
why confine ourselves to the list of scriptural texts as Protestants would draw it up, rather than the canonical list as Catholics would draw it up? Just as Humean empiricists have no
non-question-begging way of explaining why we should confine ourselves to “relations
of ideas” and “matters of fact,” sola
scriptura advocates have no non-question begging way of explaining why we
should confine ourselves to exactly the
texts they say are “scriptural,” rather than to more texts or fewer texts or
other texts entirely.
Second, just
as the Humean empiricist makes use of knowledge for which his principle cannot
account (namely the truths of logic and metaphysics), so too does the sola scriptura advocate make use of
knowledge for which his principle
cannot account. For example, scripture
alone does not give you a list of exactly which books count as scripture. (Occasionally there is a reference in some
scriptural text to some other particular scriptural text, but that’s not what
I’m talking about. What we don’t have is
anything remotely close to: “Here is a list of all and only the texts that
count as scriptural” -- and even if we did, we’d have to ask how we know that that text is itself really scriptural.) Then there all the various specific doctrinal
matters which (a) advocates of sola
scriptura typically regard as definitive of Christian orthodoxy even though
(b) advocates of sola scriptura have
also taken radically different and opposed positions on. In my previous post, I gave as examples the
centuries-old controversies concerning the Trinity, the Incarnation,
justification, transubstantiation, contraception, divorce and remarriage,
Sunday observance, infant baptism, slavery, pacifism, the consistency of
scripture with scientific claims, and sola scriptura itself. If the sola
scriptura advocate says (for example) “You must be a Trinitarian on pain of
heresy” even though advocates of sola
scriptura disagree about whether Trinitarianism is really scriptural, then
he is in a position analogous to that of the Humean who makes use of
mathematics, even though it is extremely dubious at best whether mathematics
can be analyzed in terms of either “relations of ideas” or “matters of fact.”
Third, just
as Hume’s Fork is self-refuting insofar as it cannot be known in terms of
either “relations of ideas” or “matters of fact,” so too is sola scriptura self-refuting, since it
is not itself found in scripture. It
presupposes precisely the sort of extra-scriptural theological criterion it
purports to rule out.
Now, just as
the empiricist often pulls back from the face value reading of Hume’s Fork and
claims to be committed only to a more modest and non-self-defeating position,
so too does the sola scriptura
advocate often claim to be committed only to a more modest position than the
self-defeating one I’ve been describing.
Indeed, I’ve been seeing exactly this sort of move made in response to
my series of posts on sola scriptura. “Well sure, Ed, those criticisms might hold
against some simplistic version of sola scriptura, but not against the much
more nuanced position that its more
serious advocates are committed to!”
Hence, just
the as the purportedly more subtle empiricist or naturalist doesn’t
dogmatically rule out altogether claims that are neither matters of conceptual
analysis nor empirical science, but merely proposes the latter as a sure guide
by which to judge all other claims, so too does the purportedly more subtle sola scriptura advocate not dogmatically
rule out theological claims and sources other than scripture, but merely
proposes scripture as the one sure, infallible guide by which to judge all other
theological claims. And just as the
purportedly more subtle empiricist or naturalist claims merely to be commending
epistemological modesty and confining ourselves to “successful” and “fruitful”
theories, so too does the purportedly more subtle sola scriptura advocate claim merely to be commending theological
modesty and avoiding the doctrinal errors into which pre-Reformation theology
had fallen. Which also all sounds
innocuous and reasonable.
Except that
it too is in fact entirely arbitrary, dogmatic, and question-begging, and for
reasons which exactly parallel the problems with the allegedly more modest
empiricism. For again, we need to take a
vantage point from outside of
scripture even to judge that scripture really is itself reliable and to
determine which texts count as
scripture -- just as the empiricist or naturalist has to take a point of view outside of either conceptual analysis or
natural science in order to judge that they have a privileged status. So why
exactly should we count scripture (and especially scripture as Protestants draw up the list) as the one infallible guide -- any more than we
should regard conceptual analysis or natural science as somehow privileged? Why not instead count as the one infallible
guide scripture as Catholics would
draw up the list, or scripture-together-with-the-decrees-of-such-and-such-councils,
or some part of scripture such as the
Gospels, or any of an indefinite number of other possible lists of
authoritative texts? And why take there
to be only one infallible guide in
the first place? Why not two or three or
fourteen? The purportedly more modest
version of sola scriptura has no
better answer to this than the more simplistic version does, any more than the
purportedly more modest empiricism has a good answer to the parallel problem
facing it.
Nor does it
for a moment help to appeal to theological modesty or the need to avoid the
purported “errors” of pre-Reformation theology.
For all of this begs the question no less than the naturalist’s appeal
to the “success” criterion does. For one
thing, the critic of sola scriptura maintains that what sola scriptura advocates regard as
errors and theological overreach were not
errors or overreach at all. And the
critic of sola scriptura also
maintains both that sola scriptura advocates
have fallen into errors of their own, and that they cannot justify on
scriptural grounds alone certain key doctrines to which both sides are
committed, such as Trinitarianism -- just as the critic of empiricism would
claim that even the purportedly more modest empiricism cannot account for
certain things both empiricists and their critics have in common (e.g. logic
and mathematics).
Naturally,
the sola scriptura advocate will deny
all this. But the problem is that even
the purportedly more modest, non-simplistic version of sola scriptura has no
non-question-begging reason for denying it.
The position is entirely ad hoc,
having no motivation at all other than as a way of trying to maintain rejection
of the various Catholic doctrines the sola
scriptura advocate doesn’t like, without falling into the self-refutation
problem facing the more simplistic version of sola scriptura. It is
nothing more than an expression of one’s
rejection of those Catholic doctrines, and in no way provides a rational justification for rejecting
them (just as the empiricist or naturalist criteria are really just the
expression of a rejection of traditional metaphysics disguised as a rational justification for rejecting it). And so much extra-scriptural argumentation ends up having to do the key work --
the work of determining what counts as scripture, the work of drawing implications
from scripture, the work of arguing in a non-question-begging way that
positions other than sola scriptura
have led to grave theological errors, etc. -- that it is completely unclear why
there is any point in trying to
maintain that “scripture alone” is our infallible guide.
So, again,
the purportedly more modest and sophisticated version of sola scriptura ends up being as arbitrary and dogmatic as the
simplistic version, and as arbitrary and dogmatic as empiricism.
Fulford’s failure
Now,
Fulford’s latest response inadvertently does nothing but confirm this harsh
judgment. Recall point (c) of the Jesuit
critique of sola scriptura cited by
Feyerabend, according to which scripture alone cannot give us a procedure for deriving consequences from scripture,
applying it to new circumstances, etc. I
had noted in a previous post that one way this problem manifests itself is in
the difficulty sola scriptura
advocates have had in coming to agreement on issues like the Trinity, the
Incarnation, justification, transubstantiation, contraception, divorce and
remarriage, Sunday observance, infant baptism, slavery, pacifism, the
consistency of scripture with scientific claims, etc. I noted that appeal to extra-scriptural
considerations of a philosophical sort is necessary in order to settle such
issues. And I noted that if the sola scriptura advocate maintains that
getting such issues right is a matter of basic orthodoxy, while also admitting
that extra-scriptural philosophical
considerations are needed in order to settle them, then he has made of sola scriptura a vacuous thesis. In his latest article, Fulford responds:
[W]hen magisterial Protestants like
Turretin affirmed the concept of sola scriptura, they never meant by it to exclude philosophical knowledge such as substance
metaphysics, etc. as a source for theology…
[H]istorically the point of the
slogan is to delimit infallible communications to the text of scripture, and
exclude the communications of councils and Popes from that category…
In sum, it is that the scriptures are
the sole infallible rule of faith. Every word in that definition is important:
it is the sole infallible rule, not the only
source of relevant information.
Now, the
trouble with this response is that Fulford simply ignores the various specific
examples I gave of issues that couldn’t be settled by scripture alone -- again,
issues concerning the Trinity, Incarnation, justification, etc. When one keeps those examples in mind, the
problem with Fulford’s response is obvious.
If Fulford says that these doctrinal issues can be settled by appeal to scripture alone, then he is saying
something manifestly false, or at least question-begging, since whether they
can be so settled is part of what is at issue between us. If he admits that they cannot be settled by scripture alone but require appeal to
extra-biblical philosophical considerations, then -- since he thinks those
extra-biblical considerations are not
infallible -- then he will have to say that the positions one might take on
these various theological issues are not infallible either. For example, he will have to say that the
doctrine of the Trinity is not infallible, since it depends in part on (what he
regards as) non-infallible extra-scriptural philosophical premises. And if such doctrines are not infallible, then
they cannot be regarded as binding matters of basic orthodoxy, any more than
the specifically Catholic doctrines Fulford and other Protestants reject can be
regarded by him as binding.
I doubt
Fulford would want to bite that bullet.
But suppose he did. Suppose he
said: “OK, since what I regard as the orthodox positions on the Trinity,
Incarnation, etc. cannot be settled by scripture alone but require appeal to
fallible extra-scriptural premises, I conclude that those positions are not after all binding on all Christians
on pain of heterodoxy.” In that case, he
will have made of sola scriptura a
vacuous doctrine. For if sola scriptura cannot settle fundamental doctrinal issues that have
divided Christians for centuries -- again, the Trinity, the Incarnation,
justification, transubstantiation, contraception, divorce and remarriage,
Sunday observance, infant baptism, slavery, pacifism, the consistency of
scripture with scientific claims, etc., or indeed even sola scriptura itself -- then what exactly is the value or point of the thesis? Exactly what sure guidance does it give us, and why should we be so
confident of it if we can’t be
confident of these other things?
Fulford says
absolutely nothing to resolve this problem.
In particular, he says nothing to show why the position of a sola scriptura advocate who regards
certain positions on the Trinity, Incarnation, justification, etc. as binding
matters of orthodoxy is any less ad hoc,
arbitrary, and dogmatic than the
position of the Humean empiricist.
Now let’s turn
to Fulford’s latest remarks on point (b) of the Jesuit critique cited by
Feyerabend, which was that scripture alone cannot tell us how to interpret
scripture. I illustrated the problem by
citing the parallel example of the controversy over interpreting Aristotle’s
position in De Anima concerning the
immortality of the soul. Fulford
responds:
Dr. Feser is certainly correct that
Aristotle’s views on those matters are continuing controversies. But, on the
other hand, no competent historian to my knowledge disputes that, for example,
Aristotle’s texts teach the distinction between act and potency…
Protestants will contend that
everything we need to know from scripture to be saved is like my act/potency
example, and not like the immortality of the soul example. That is, based on
inspecting the actual texts of scripture, they argue that it is quite clear
what God wants us to do to be saved.
End
quote. Here too the problem is that
Fulford completely ignores the specific examples of doctrinal examples that I gave
-- again, the Trinity, the Incarnation, justification, transubstantiation,
contraception, divorce and remarriage, Sunday observance, infant baptism,
slavery, pacifism, the consistency of scripture with scientific claims, sola scriptura itself, etc. When we keep these examples in mind, we can
see the grave dilemma Fulford has put himself in. Is Fulford claiming that it is just as
obvious what scripture teaches on these
issues as it is obvious what Aristotle teaches about act and potency?
If he is claiming this, then he is saying
something manifestly false, and certainly question-begging. For of course, whether such issues really can
be settled by appeal to scripture alone is part of what is at issue between sola scriptura advocates and their
critics. On the other hand, if he admits
that such issues cannot be settled by appeal to scripture alone, then he will
have to admit that what Aristotle says about act and potency is not after all a
good analogy for the sorts of positions which Protestants typically regard as
matters of basic orthodoxy. For as
Fulford says, no one denies that Aristotle taught the theory of act and
potency. But lots of people disagree about whether scripture really teaches the
doctrine of the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Lutheran or Calvinist view of
justification, etc. Yet Protestants also
hold that having the right position on those issues is a matter of basic
orthodoxy.
To be sure,
Fulford seems to think that the doctrinal diversity among readers of scripture
shouldn’t be regarded as a problem for sola
scriptura. Why not? Well, he says that there are, for one thing,
those “who agree with the material authority of scripture (e.g., Muslims,
Mormons), but deny it formally, because they say it has been corrupted in the
transmission.” Their views, Fulford
apparently thinks, don’t count and shouldn’t be taken into consideration when
evaluating sola scriptura. Then there are “some hold to the
infallibility of the scriptures but do not interpret them according to
grammatico-historical principles (i.e., they use allegorical methods of
interpretation.” Apparently Fulford
thinks their views shouldn’t count either.
Also, there are “some [who] hold to the infallibility of the scriptures
and interpret them according to the grammatico-historical method (e.g.,
Jehovah’s Witnesses, Arians)” -- but where Fulford, as a Calvinist, would
naturally think of them as having erred doctrinally. So, apparently their views don’t count either when evaluating sola scriptura. Then there
is the point that “there are many disagreements from a Protestant point of view
that do not threaten the salvation of those involved.” Hence, if there is disagreement over how to
interpret what scripture says about these issues, we shouldn’t count that against sola scriptura. Finally,
there are those whose reading of scripture is distorted by “affection for
traditional or community (whether secular or ecclesiastical) doctrines,” or by
“willful distortion… for personal gain,” or by “ignorance of the full scope of
scriptural teaching, whether due to immaturity or laziness.”
So, which
religious groups should we look at when
we want to determine whether sola
scriptura really has led to radical doctrinal disagreement? Apparently, we
should look only at those Protestant groups that Andrew Fulford regards as
within the ballpark of respectable views.
And it turns out -- what are the odds? -- that the doctrinal diversity
among those groups vis-Ã -vis the
issues that really matter isn’t so great after all! Lucky thing for sola scriptura, that.
Except that
the problem with this, of course, is that it quite obviously and quite
massively begs the question. For why should we suppose that those who
think that scripture has “been corrupted in the transmission” are wrong? Why
should we prefer “grammatico-historical principles” over “allegorical” ones, or
over some combination of the two approaches?
How exactly are these views
incompatible with sola scriptura? How can scripture alone tell us whether the text has been corrupted or whether grammatico-historical
principles should be preferred over allegorical principles? (And if it can’t, why isn’t that a problem for sola scriptura, especially since it has such radical implications
for doctrine?) Why exactly should we
think that it is the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Arians, rather than their critics,
who have simply gotten scripture wrong? Why
should we suppose that those controversial doctrines which Fulford says are irrelevant to salvation really are irrelevant to salvation? Why should we agree with him that certain
interpretations are merely the product of willful distortion, ignorance,
etc.? What non-question-begging answer can Fulford possibly give to such
questions? Since he doesn’t even try
to answer them, we don’t know.
Reductionism
Let me turn
now to the reductionism to which I referred earlier, before responding to
Fulford’s other remarks. Recall that I
noted in my initial post in this series that by “experience,” the Aristotelian
philosopher means more or less what common sense means. Hence, consider the case where I’m fully
alert, in good health, looking at a green coffee cup right in front of me, in
good light with no obstructions, etc. In
a circumstance like that, “There’s a green coffee cup on the table” is something
which both common sense and Aristotelian philosophy alike would agree is
directly known via experience. But not
so for the empiricist, who would say that all we really know directly in such a
case is “There’s a greenish patch of color in the center of my field of
vision,” or “I am being appeared to greenly,” or some such thing. For the Aristotelian, greenish color patches
and the like are not the objects of experience, but rather abstractions from
experience, which has just the objects common sense supposes it to have. What I perceive is the cup itself. It is only
by abstracting from my perception of the cup that I arrive at theoretical
notions like the notion of a color patch, of being appeared to greenly, etc. The empiricist takes these abstracted notions
and redefines experience in terms of them, reducing
experience to the awareness of these strange entities.
The
procedure is the epistemological analogue of metaphysical reductionism. For the Aristotelian, a stone or a vine is a genuine
substance, rather than a mere collection of substances or a modification of a
substance. By contrast, a pile of
stones, or a paperweight made out of a stone chiseled into a square shape, is
not a true substance. In these cases,
the true substances are the many stones (in the case of the pile) or the one
stone (in the case of the paperweight).
The pile is nothing more than the collection of the several substances,
and the square shape is nothing more than a modification of the one substance. Similarly, whereas a vine is a substance, a
hammock made out of vines is not, but is merely a modification of the true
substances (the vines) that make it up.
Now, the metaphysical reductionist treats the stone and vine as if they too were really just collections or
modifications of substances. He treats
the stone, say, as “nothing but” a collection of particles, which are regarded
as the true substances; or he treats the vine as “nothing but” a collection of
cells, which are regarded as the true substances. For the Aristotelian, this is a deep
mistake. The particles that make up the
stone are in a sense less fundamental than the stone, and the cells less
fundamental than the vine. The
reductionist abstracts out parts that are properly understood only in light of
the whole, and then reduces the whole to them.
(See chapter 3 of Scholastic
Metaphysics for a defense of the Aristotelian view of substance and a
critique of reductionism.)
Now, let’s
turn to the parallel with sola scriptura
-- which will take some spelling out, so bear with me a little longer. Just as perception involves a relationship
between a perceiving person and a physical object, so too communication
involves a relationship between a person and the other person with whom he is
communicating. One mind conveys its
thoughts to another mind. Of course,
this is done through the medium of spoken or written words, just as perception
is accomplished through the medium of sense impressions. But just as, in perception, it isn’t the
sense impression itself that you grasp, but rather the physical object that you
grasp, by means of the sense
impression, so too in communication it isn’t strictly the other person’s words
you grasp, but rather his thoughts, by
means of his words. That’s why in
the ordinary case we say things like “I listened carefully to Fred,” rather than “I listened carefully to the words that were
coming out of Fred’s mouth,” or “I’m going to go talk to Bob” rather than “I’m going to go send some words in Bob’s
direction.” The empiricist errs in
thinking that it is really sense impressions rather than physical objects that
we perceive, and it would be similarly erroneous to think that it is really
words rather than people that we are communicating with.
Now, divine
revelation is a kind of communication, and as I noted in a previous post, all
sides in the debate over sola scriptura
agree that this revelation takes place through human intermediaries. One kind of intermediary would be a
prophet. When a prophet speaks to you,
what you need to understand if you are going to understand his message is the thoughts he intends to convey to
you. Of course, he will convey those
thoughts through words, but it is strictly speaking not the words in and of themselves
that you are trying to understand, but rather the thoughts through the words, by means
of the words. And that is true
whether or not the words are spoken or written.
In saying that
much, I am not saying anything that I think a sola scriptura advocate like Fulford would disagree with. I think all sides would agree that when God
speaks through St. Paul (say) we need to understand what St. Paul himself meant to convey by his words if we are
going to understand what God willed to communicate. We need to learn the mind of St. Paul through
his words. Scripture is important
because it is through it that we get to the thoughts
of the scriptural authors, and thus to the divine message that is sent by
virtue of those thoughts having been inspired.
Now, if revelation
takes place fundamentally through persons themselves, then there is a potential
problem. Persons die, or at least human
persons do. A prophet might speak or
write, but when he’s gone, all we have left are his remembered or written
words, and where those words are unclear, or incomplete, or indeterminate in
their application to new circumstances, we cannot ask him for clarification. Of course, God could miraculously keep some
prophet from dying so that he will always be around in the community for us to
consult. But as everyone agrees, he has
not done so. That is to say, there is no
prophet who has been alive and living visibly on earth for (say) the last two
thousand years. God could also send a
series of prophets, each one succeeded by another who can be consulted when the
previous one dies. But he has not done
that either. There is no line of
prophets that has continued from the time of Christ (say) down to the present
day.
Is there any
other option? There is. Scholastic philosophers commonly draw a
distinction between a natural person
(or “physical person”), and a moral
person (or “juridical person”). A
natural person is a particular, individual human being -- you, me, Barack
Obama, and so forth. A moral person is a
society of human beings organized in such a way that they have a common end and
some of the rights and duties that human beings have. For example, a state is a moral person, as is
a corporation. Hence states and
corporations have certain rights that they can claim against individual human
beings and against other moral persons, they have duties to other persons
whether natural or moral, they can carry out policies which are said to express
the will of the state or corporation, and so forth. Now, individual human beings -- members,
office holders, employees, etc. -- are always the ones who carry out the
actions of moral persons. Still, moral
persons exist over and above the individual people who happen to be the
members, office holders, employees, etc. at any one time. A state or corporation can maintain the same
basic character, policies, rights, responsibilities, etc. generation after
generation, over many centuries.
Now, like
natural persons, moral persons can communicate.
States can issue decrees, corporations can advertise, and so forth, and
these communications can of course take written form, as well as being expressed
vocally by the officials of the state or corporation. A moral person can even bind itself to follow
perpetually the policies expressed in certain documents. The United States government, for example, is
bound to carry out the directives of the U.S. Constitution, to follow the laws
passed by Congress, and so on. To do so,
however, it has to interpret those documents so as to know what their intent
was, determine how to apply them to new circumstances, and so forth. And that is what one branch of the U.S.
government -- the courts, and ultimately the Supreme Court -- is charged with
doing.
Needless to
say, it doesn’t always do it well. But
of course, there are also false prophets.
Now, God can of course ensure that a prophet is not a false prophet. The existence of false prophets doesn’t
entail that all alleged prophets are
false, any more than the existence of counterfeit money entails that all money
is counterfeit. By the same token, that
some moral persons have been corrupted doesn’t entail that all moral persons
must in fact become corrupt.
So, if
individual human persons do not in fact function as ongoing channels of divine
communication, there is still the option of a moral person serving as this channel. And if divinely guided, it can be preserved
from teaching theological error. Of
course, just as a prophet or apostle might have a bad day -- Moses lost his
temper at times, Peter sometimes lost his nerve, and so forth -- so too might
such a moral person make mistakes of a sort. But as with a prophet or apostle, it will
suffice if this moral person really is infallible when it claims to be teaching infallibly, even if it is not
infallible when it doesn’t claim to be teaching infallibly in the first place.
This sort of
divinely guided moral person is, of course, precisely what the Catholic Church
claims to be. And like a state or a
corporation, it has issued documents of various levels of authority. A constitution and the Supreme Court
decisions that interpret it have the highest level of authority in a state like
the United States. Scripture, council
decrees, and ex cathedra papal
pronouncements are analogous to that.
Certain other papal documents are more like presidential executive
orders. And so forth. These various documents are to be interpreted
“according to the mind of the Church,” as Catholics say -- that is, according
to the intentions and will of the moral person which authorizes them.
Now, a state
will sometimes incorporate elements of the law of a preexisting state. Think, for example, of the way that Louisiana
law preserves elements of the Napoleonic code, or the way that entrance into
the union did not wipe out the preexisting laws of Alaska, Hawaii, etc. Similarly, the Church took over for itself
and judged to be authoritative and infallible the scriptural texts of ancient
Israel. To those, it added the New Testament,
which might be thought of as a written record of the teaching of certain
members -- namely, the founding members -- of the moral person that is the
Church. That moral person also
ultimately decided which books had what level of authority -- that
such-and-such books would count as having the highest level of authority (i.e. scriptural
authority), that certain other books (the writings of the Church Fathers) would
have some lesser but still very high level of authority, and so forth. In these various ways, what counts as scripture or as a document of
some other kind of authority is the expression of the mind of the Church, of
the decrees of a certain moral person -- just as the bylaws of a certain
corporation, the memos issued to its staff, the warranties or instruction
manuals it issues to its customers, etc. are the expression of the mind of that
corporation.
Of course,
all of this raises many questions, but the point, here as in my earlier posts,
is not to provide a complete exposition and defense of the Catholic
position. The point is rather to explain
the origin of one of the many serious problems with sola scriptura -- in this case, the fact that it has no principled,
non-ad hoc way to account for the
shape of the canon of scripture that
it recognizes. Use of a blanket term
like “scripture” or “the Bible” can obscure the fact that it is really a large collection of books that we are talking
about, not merely one book. And why is
it made up of these exact books
rather than some smaller collection, or larger one, or a collection with
altogether different contents? Fulford
and other critics of my posts on sola
scriptura have avoided addressing this problem head on, preferring to
discuss instead the issue of why we might judge some particular scriptural book divinely inspired, which isn’t really
relevant. And that is not surprising,
because there’s no way they can
address it.
The reason
is that the canon of scripture is the
product of the moral person that is the Church. Imagine taking a collection of documents --
bylaws, research reports, interoffice memos, etc. -- that were written by many
different individuals but which arose within the IBM corporation over the
course of many decades. Imagine this
included research reports, product designs, and other materials that IBM had
taken over from some previous, now defunct corporation whose assets IBM had
acquired -- documents IBM found valuable and relevant to its own aims and thus
decided to preserve. Imagine that IBM
had many of these documents assembled into a collection, and gave that
collection a label like “the Book.” Imagine
that its aim in doing so was to make it clear to employees what the history of
the company was, what the company took to be definitive of its mission, what
policies employees were expected to follow, etc. Now imagine that someone came across “the
Book” and asked why exactly these
documents are in it -- why the non-IBM documents were included, why certain
IBM-related documents were not
included, and why it is a collection of IBM-related documents at all -- and
also asked why it had any special authority over IBM employees. And imagine
trying to answer these questions but without
alluding to the IBM corporation itself or its purposes in assembling the
collection in just the way it did.
Needless to
say, it couldn’t be done. There would be
no coherent way to make sense of the collection -- either of its precise
contents, or of the special authority of the collection qua that precise collection -- apart from the communicative
intentions of the moral person that is the IBM Corporation. Someone who stomped his feet and insisted
that “the Book alone” was authoritative would be in thrall to a very strange
delusion indeed. For “the Book” as such, as a kind of canon with its
specific contents, would have no authority at all unless the IBM Corporation had
given it that authority.
That is the
position the sola scriptura advocate
is in. He has abstracted the canon of
scripture out of the context in which it arose and in which alone it makes
sense -- namely, its status as the product of the moral person that is the
Church. And his position is in that way
also analogous to that of the empiricist who abstracts the notion of sense data
-- color patches, sounds of a certain pitch, etc. -- out of the ordinary
perceptual experiences of which they are mere components. Now, as noted in an earlier post, the
empiricist notoriously finds it impossible once again to reconstruct an
ordinary experience out of these elements.
The empiricist notion of “experience” ends up being an incoherent
mess. And the sola scriptura advocate has a similar problem. Having abstracted the scriptural texts out of
the context in which their unity as a canon is intelligible, he finds it
impossible to explain why the canon
comes together in just the specific way it does.
Fulford’s further failures
Some further
remarks from Fulford offer another example of this particular parallel with
empiricism. In response to my point that
the Catholic claim is not merely that we need to add further texts to those the
sola scriptura advocate would
recognize, but that we need to move beyond
texts to the persons behind them,
Fulford writes:
Though there is some metaphysical
distinction between texts and persons, I don’t think they will ultimately help
the critic of sola scriptura out of the dilemma I posed. This is because, while
we can ask living persons to tell us what texts mean, the only way they can
help is by communicating further words to us…
Now, it is true that in theory, a
living author has the potential to provide more clarity by means of rapidly
answered questions than a bare text. However, the potential difference in
clarity is only a matter of degree.
To see what
is wrong with this, recall an aspect of the empiricist account of perception
noted above. Correctly noting that we
perceive physical objects through
sense impressions, the empiricist mistakenly concludes that what we really
perceive directly just are the sense impressions themselves -- that it is, for example, not really the green cup you
perceive directly, but rather a green color patch in the center of your visual
field. Notoriously, this opens up a skeptical
“veil of perceptions” problem. It seems that
on a consistent empiricist view, we can never get beyond sense impressions to the physical objects that cause them. We’re stuck with the sense impressions
themselves.
Now Fulford
seems committed to a strange theory of communication according to which it is
only ever texts that we really
encounter. Even when it seems that we are communicating with
persons rather than texts, we are really just encountering further texts -- the strings of words that come out of their
mouths, say. We never really get to the thoughts
of the person himself, any more than,
for the empiricist, we get to physical objects themselves but only to mere
sense impressions of them. We are stuck
behind a “veil of texts,” just as for the empiricist we are stuck behind a veil
of perceptions. And the implications are
similarly radically skeptical, even if Fulford no doubt doesn’t realize
it. For if we never really get to the
thoughts of the persons behind the texts but only to further texts, then we can
never really know what the texts mean, since their meaning is derivative from
the thoughts and intentions of persons.
Fulford’s
error is similar to that of the empiricist.
Because we communicate with persons by
means of texts, he concludes that all we ever really get to are texts
rather than to the thoughts of persons -- just as the empiricist supposes that
because we perceive objects by means of
sense impressions, it is really only ever sense impressions that we perceive. Just as the empiricist is so fixated upon one
aspect of experience -- sense data or
the like -- that he ends up completely distorting the nature of experience, so
too are sola scriptura advocates so
fixated upon one aspect of communication
-- namely, texts -- that they can end up completely distorting the nature of
communication. They’ve got texts on the
brain. They’re text obsessed. They’re text maniacs. Well, texts are fine in their place, but
ultimately they are merely vehicles through which we communicate with persons.
Hence any sound theory of communication -- including divine revelation
via human instruments -- must put persons rather than texts at the center.
Finally, a
bonus error from Fulford. At the end of
his post he makes some remarks in criticism of the Catholic position. This is irrelevant, since, as I keep saying,
I have not been putting forward a systematic defense of the Catholic position
in the first place, but rather criticizing sola
scriptura. And those criticisms
retain their force whether or not one
thinks Catholicism has a better alternative.
So, all the anti-Catholic stuff some readers of my recent posts have been
flinging is a red herring. Anyway,
noting that there was within the Judaism of Christ’s day a belief that certain
texts were divinely inspired, Fulford says:
What this point of history about
Second Temple Judaism implies is that it is possible to know what books are
holy scripture even without a visible institution given the promise of divine
guidance and infallibility. This alone suffices to show that the first Jesuit
charge of incoherence must actually be mistaken.
To me the
fallacy here is obvious, but since it apparently is not obvious to Fulford or
some of his readers, let me explain it by reference to the counterfeit money
example from an earlier post of mine.
Suppose someone reasoned as follows: “I know of some of the money in
this bag that it is not counterfeit.
Therefore, I know of all of the money in the bag that it is not
counterfeit, and I know that there is no real money in some other bag.” The fallacy in this argument, I trust, is clear.
Even if you know of some of
the money in some particular bag that it is not counterfeit, it obviously does
not follow that there is not also some counterfeit money in that bag, or that
there is no real money in other bags too.
Fulford is
committing a similar fallacy. For the
“bag,” read “the canon of scripture as Fulford understands it.” Fulford notes, correctly, that of some of the texts in that canon, we can
know that they are divinely inspired even apart from decisions made by the
institutional Church. As evidence, he
cites the fact that certain books were known to be scriptural in Christ’s day,
before the Church existed. But it simply
doesn’t follow from that that we could know, apart from the decrees of the
institutional Church, the scope of the
entire canon of scripture. In
particular, it doesn’t follow that none
of the books in the canon Fulford would recognize are bogus, and it doesn’t
follow that there aren’t books that Fulford wouldn’t recognize as canonical
(such as the deuterocanonicals) that are
in fact part of the canon.
Now, what I
was addressing, and what point (a) of the Jesuit critique cited by Feyerabend
was addressing, is precisely this issue of the
canon. No one is claiming that you couldn’t
have a clue about whether any book is
divinely inspired apart from the decrees of the institutional Church. The claim is rather that the precise shape of the canon cannot be accounted for apart from
the decrees of the institutional Church.
Hence, though Fulford thinks he has “show[n] that the first Jesuit
charge of incoherence must actually be mistaken,” in fact he hasn’t even
addressed the charge.
But how do we know that he has received the Holy Spirit?
ReplyDeleteBecause Christ and the Apostles said so, and we have historical evidence to prove it ("who ever listens to you, listens to me;" "receive the Holy Spirit...;" etc.). Where did Christ, the Apostles, their immediate Successors, or those Successor's Successors, teach sola Scriptura.
All four generations seem to teach Bishop=Truth.
It’s because if this view was true this would mean that we are at least sometimes in a position to force God to do what we want.
Our position only seems like that because you see Grace as mere Divine Favor, aka the Nominalistic Imputed Grace (as well as mix up of Primary and Secondary causes). I can't explain the difference right now, but I can later, and maybe someone else might get there first (I have to go out and split some firewood :-) ).
Christi pax.
Patrick:
ReplyDeleteThe (Catholic) Church does not hold, and has never held, that one must be a visible member of the Church in order to be saved. It does hold, and has always held, that all salvation is through the Church whether or not the saved person is a visible member of the Church, indeed whether or not he's even aware at the time that it's Christ Who is saving him. No one is saved "outside the Church" and there are no Christians "outside the Church." Wherever salvation is, the Church is.
“So why exactly should we count scripture (and especially scripture as Protestants draw up the list) as the one infallible guide -- any more than we should regard conceptual analysis or natural science as somehow privileged? Why not instead count as the one infallible guide scripture as Catholics would draw up the list, or scripture-together-with-the-decrees-of-such-and-such-councils, or some part of scripture such as the Gospels, or any of an indefinite number of other possible lists of authoritative texts? And why take there to be only one infallible guide in the first place? Why not two or three or fourteen?”
ReplyDeleteAs I pointed out elsewhere if instead of “sola scriptura” one applies the principle that I’ve called “sola doctrina apostolica” (“only the apostles’ teaching”) one can make a good case for the view that the New Testament writings should be the the one infallible guide. The priniciple of “sola doctrina apostolica” is not incoherent, as there are a number of passages in the New Testament saying that one should not deviate from the apostles’ teaching. This principle seems to me also to be reasonable if one proceeds on the assumption that the first Christians had the same spiritual needs as have modern day Christians, and if the apostles’ teaching was sufficient for them to meet their spiritual needs, I don’t see why it is supposed not to be sufficient for the spiritual needs of modern day Christians.
Now the question arises whether or not the New Testament writings provide us completely or at least to a large extent with the content of the apostles’ teaching. If Catholicism is true the question must be answered with “no”, as there is a great number of Catholic teachings that simply don’t turn up in the New Testament. One of them is its teaching about indulgences, which has been discussed here extensively. If indulgences belonged to the apostles’ teaching this means that the New Testament authors for some reason or others didn’t bother to mention them, and I think one has to provide some plausible reason why this is supposed to have been the case. However, if indulgences didn’t belong to the apostles’ teaching one can ask the question if the first Christians didn’t need indulgences for their spiritual well being why we are supposed to need them, again, proceeding on the assumption that modern day Christians have the same spiritual needs as had the first Christians.
sola doctrina apostolica
DeleteCatholics agree, we just claim that the teaching is not exhausted by Scripture.
One of them is its teaching about indulgences, which has been discussed here extensively. If indulgences belonged to the apostles’ teaching this means that the New Testament authors for some reason or others didn’t bother to mention them, and I think one has to provide some plausible reason why this is supposed to have been the case.
Indulgences are in Scripture. They are not called indulgences, but then again, the Apostles didn't use terms like Trinity and homoousian.
Indulgences are penences for sin, a very Biblical concept, and when we look at St. Paul's body explanation of the Church, indulgences are just one member doing penences for another member, just as one body part helps the others (which is exactly how St. Paul puts it: building up one another). To use an Eastern term, the "Treasury of Merit" is sort of a communitive theosis, and, as I mentioned, is a direct result of the Body of Christ being a body.
Scripture also talks about the Saints intervening for us (Letter to the Hebrews), which is the same idea. The Dead in Purgatory are the same way; we are helping build them up as well, as we are all members of one body.
Finally, all of this works under the assumption of "infused Grace," that is, Grace, which is Deity, is infused with us. We can help other members of the body of Christ receive more Grace through us, which is what the Saints do constantly (thus the idea of corporate theosis). We "merit" Grace by good works, which is a nice way of saying that Good work, done with Grace, open us, our hearts, up to more Grace, which is the point of the Parable of the Talents. We Catholics just say that we can use our Talents to help other members of the body (in fact, the metaphor of "Treasury" might stem from this Parable).
Christi pax.
Patrick,
DeleteI also pointed out in a different thread that Scripture itself points to teachings outside of itself, and you have yet to respond to this. It's fine if you forgot :-)
Christi pax.
George LeSauvage, Given this perspective, I find it very odd that neither he, nor anyone else, has discussed the political elephant in the room.
ReplyDeleteWho "he"? Me? My political leanings are irrelevant. Luther's may be relevant. The theses are a good swift intro to everything that bugged him. The Pope's authority in relation with scripturally dubious and economically corruptive policies bugged Luther. "Authority" was how "politics" was spelled at the time.
George LeSauvage, This is odd. I understand that your attitude is common enough, but why in the world present it in a philosophy blog? It has, always, been the standard Thomist position that, well before 1517, the level of philosophy in Europe had declined, largely under the influence of Nominalism.
It is my firm philosophical attitude that a point or argument should be relevant to the issue at hand. The word "Nominalism" would have been utterly irrelevant as a response to Luther. In my view, Luther was psychologically centred around emotions, not intellect. His gripe against sales of indulgences was an acute and sustained moral pain.
Luther didn't care about philosophy at all. As far as I have read him, he doesn't care even about the internal consistency of theology. He basically borrowed the theology, rewrote a bunch of the Catholic doctrine as he felt appropriate for his own new church, with the emphasis on morality and devotion. "Felt" is the right word here, instead of "thought", and "morality and devotion" too, instead of "logical coherence".
When you establish a church, you'll have to write some tenets and doctrine for it and that's what he did, because he had landed into the situation where it became his duty. "Nominalism" was beside the point.
When someone points out economic and political corruption to you in the Church, do you really think the proper response is, "Your level of philosophy has declined largely under the influence Nominalism."?
When someone points out economic and political corruption to you in the Church, do you really think the proper response is, "Your level of philosophy has declined largely under the influence Nominalism."?
DeleteI don't think Catholics, then and today, denied that all Luther's complaints were unfounded, just the ones that denied doctrine. You seem to think that we are claiming that indulgences were not being abused at that time, which I don't think anyone is saying. We are saying that those abuses did not stem from the doctrine itself, but rather from human sin.
Also, the abuses of indulgences was more isolated (you sound like they were abused all over the place), but they were really an isolated case (Northern Europe).
And finally, you sound as though you think indulgences caused Protestantism, which is laughable. Luther wanted his reform to be democratic, but it was very top down. All I have to do is mention the German Princes and King Henry VIII (Luther HATED the German Princes, by the way).
There were many German Knights (lower nobility) who followed Luther's reform, and tried to overthrow the Princes (higher nobility). However, the Princes crushed them, and Luther accidentally made the Princes more power as a result :-(
Christi pax.
His writings and activity specifically to do with indulgences was never condemned.
ReplyDeleteMost Catholic resources I've read teach that he manipulated things regarding indulgences for the dead, but that he was pretty sound when writing about indulgences for the living.
Luther's issue was with sales of indulgences as such, but no Church representative ever spoke a word against it.
Are you sure? Last time I checked, the problem was already being resolved during Luther's lifetime.
Christi pax.
Luther's issue was with sales of indulgences as such...
ReplyDeleteThat may have been true in or about 1518. By 1525, however, it was an irrelevant trifle to him, and he was quite pleased not to be bothered with it.
Wrote he in a long response (The Bondage of the Will) to Erasmus,
"Moreover, I praise and commend you highly for this also, that unlike all the rest you alone have attacked the real issue, the essence of the matter in dispute, and have not wearied me with irrelevancies about the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, and such like trifles (for trifles they are rather than basic issues)[.]"
It took him not more than 7 years to get over it, while (some) followers of his 600 years later still have not.
Surely there are not less than two or three things slightly more contemporary to be hot and bothered about.
Daniel D. D. I don't think Catholics, then and today, denied that all Luther's complaints were unfounded, just the ones that denied doctrine.
ReplyDeleteIn summary, the debates with Luther went like this.
Luther, "It's immoral to sell indulgences."
Opponent, "You sound like a man of good pious motivation. You are eager to save souls, am I right? Here are some indulgences. People who buy them from you will get to heaven."
Luther, "I said it's immoral to sell indulgences. It's against the scriptures too. Souls are saved by faith and grace, not by buying indulgences. If the Pope endorses sales of indulgences, he does not represent neither scriptures or God!"
Opponent, "Oh, but now you are denying the holy doctrine of papal infallibility. Jan Hus denied that too and you know what happened to him, don't you?"
In other words, yeah, you are perfectly free to think that nobody denied that Luther had some point. But the point is that the point was never addressed. Nobody did anything about the pressing moral issue. Nobody did anything about it and that's why it exploded over the continent.
Daniel D. D. Also, the abuses of indulgences was more isolated (you sound like they were abused all over the place), but they were really an isolated case (Northern Europe).
Not me, but Luther sounded like that. And the response to him was not "there are isolated cases of abuse and we have already taken care of such and such abusers" as it should have been. The response to him was, "We are Catholics. We save souls. You are obstructing."
Daniel D. D. Last time I checked, the problem was already being resolved during Luther's lifetime.
Yes, it was resolved after Luther had been excommunicated and Reformation had irreversibly spread all over the place. Too late, too little.
People who buy them from you will get to heaven.
DeleteWhich was never Catholic teaching. Indulgences are useless without Confession, and Confession is useless without repentance. This has always been Catholic teaching. As Scott pointed out, you have been mislead about them. That is not how the debates went at all. And again, indulgences were an issue that stemed from the main one: salvation by faith alone.
We are Catholics. We save souls. You are obstructing
He was obstructing by teaching faith alone and other false doctrine, not by pointing out abuses. The Pope, responding to the 95 thesis agreed with Luther that abuses needed to stop, and so did the counter reformation.
it was resolved after Luther had been excommunicated and Reformation had irreversibly spread all over the place.
Yes, but, let me remind you, indulgences was not the main issue that the reformers had. To claim that indulgences were the main issue is insulting the Reformers.
Christi pax.
(600 years later... +/- 100 years. ;))
ReplyDeleteE.Seigner:
ReplyDeleteCan you name a specific person (one is enough) whose illicit scams in relation with sales of indulgences were condemned?
I'm not sure why you need the name of a person to confirm my statement that the Church repeatedly condemned a set of practices. (Which it did. See especially the paragraph before the heading "Traffic in Indulgences," though it won't hurt you to give the rest of it at least a skim too.) Do you insist on being supplied the name of a convicted murderer before you'll accept that the Church condemns murder?
As others (including Daniel D. D. and Glenn) have pointed out, the issue of indulgences didn't have anything like the centrality you seem to want to assign it anyway. But there just isn't any question that the Church condemned the practices at issue.
Good afternoon, Daniel.
ReplyDeleteLet's take it from the top.
In Luther's Heidelberg Disputation (1518), he contrasts two understandings of divine love-- a philosophical analogy from human love to divine love; a biblical picture of the Creator's love for sinful creatures. Taken as a whole, the Bible shows God saving sinners-- we might even say perfecting them-- as a continuation of his work in creating them. God loves sinners with the love with which he first created them, not with a love inspired by a subsequent commonality of interests or a similarity of being. Because the Creator's love for creatures is prior to their perfection, it is not earned by whatever perfection they may eventually have. That priority in the biblical picture brings Luther to what later Lutherans formalized as Universal Objective Justification (UOJ)-- Christ's death on the Cross atoned for the sins of all human beings who have ever been or will ever be.
Union with Christ enabled by the believer's trust in him actualizes the possibility of salvation opened by the atonement. Christ the Word has himself established the ordinary means of union with him-- baptism, communion, penance, scripture, and by implication, preaching. Given UOJ, the union effected by these forms of the Word are real prior to any faith that the recipient may possess. However, the union effects salvation only in those who fully entrust themselves to God's perfecting work; in others, it effects judgment. The pastor's challenges are to get people to meet Christ in the sacraments, to elicit in them the trust that makes the union saving, and to forfend the despair of God's willingness to save that inhibits their salvation.
Communion is union with Christ in a corporeal way. "This is my Body... This is my Blood..." At the Marburg Colloquy, while Ulrich Zwingli explained his theory that the words were only symbolic, Luther carved them into the wooden tabletop with his knife and pointed to them. "You are of a different spirit than we." Scott's point-- Luther is again insisting that the Bible speaks of divine presence in ways that need not make pagan philosophical sense. Indeed, it need not make complete human sense; Luther is a keen dialectician in the scholastic tradition, but no more a rationalist than St Thomas. So trying to squeeze Lutheran eucharistic doctrine into an untransformed Hellenism with words like 'consubstantiation'-- a word no well-instucted Lutheran uses-- misses something central about the doctrine.
But if communion makes biblical or mystical sense rather than Hellenistic sense, then what sense does it make? Act V of the Council of Chalcedon defines that the one person of Christ has, not one nature-- human, divine, or blended-- but two-- one human, one divine. Luther's associate Johannes Brenz, took this to mean that, although the two natures are distinct, their properties may be exchanged, for that is the point of their being in one person. For example, the 'wondrous exchange' of divine grace for the sinner's faults depends on Christ's human nature to receive the sinner and on his divine nature to grace him. So Brenz proposed the communicatio idiomatum-- Christ's divine property of ubiquity enabled his glorified humanity to be present where he said it would be-- with his disciples to the end of the age. Christ is the Shekinah and can hardly be less present in the new covenant than he was in the old one. That the Body of Christ has replaced the Temple as his locus is, with the Cross and the New Creation, one of the three grand themes of the New Testament.
But, Daniel, the Reformed cried foul. To the communicatio idiomatum, they objected that, well, finitum non capax infiniti! That, to them, is what Act V means. Words have been exchanged; the contest continues. The score is close, but in the fifth century Lutherans have pulled into a fast-widening lead-- Lutherans 482, Reformed 451.
ReplyDeleteAnd how, the Reformed demanded to know, can Christ be on the altar when the Bible says that he has ascended to heaven? Well, replied the Lutherans, the altar itself is in heaven when Christ is on it. Christ is present where the gospel is present, and the words by which he instituted the sacrament proclaim the gospel and bring his body along with it. Although the Lord's body has ascended to heaven, that only means that heaven will be wherever he is. "Therefore, with angels and archangels and all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify His glorious name, evermore praising Thee and singing..."
Luther's scholasticism shows in his interest in the exact moment of consecration. Although Syrians believed that it happens in the Benedictus, hence their prostration there, the East generally has no idea and no interest. Luther did have an idea and he was very interested in it-- the scriptural Verba, Christ's own words instituting the sacrament, effect the consecration of the bread and wine. They are Christ's; they proclaim the gospel; they bind it to his body.
So then is it serious that our deacon, who ran out of consecrated bread and wine, mixed unconsecrated bread and wine with it to finish the service? It is, replied Luther. "Depose him from the diaconate, and banish him to the Reformed where he belongs." In Luther's view, the objectivity of the universal atonement both enables and demands an objective means of grace. Moreover, the point of ordaining priests to act in persona Christi is to ensure that each communicant knows that Christ himself initiates their union to save her soul. In his First Things essay, Why Luther is not quite a Protestant, Philip Cary emphasizes that this saving knowledge is predicated on her confidence that God does not lie.
But Luther is famous for his notion of 'the priesthood of all believers,' one might protest. Why would Lutherans ordain anyone? Well, the hapless deacon illustrates one reason-- discipline is necessary to sacred things. In Luther's scheme, which heightens the representation of divine speech, the danger of misrepresentation that incurs divine wrath is also heightened. And 'Squire George,' who left the safety of the Wartberg and risked assassination to drive the rabble-rousing Carlstadt out of Wittenberg plainly had a heart for order. The flight of bishops from some Lutheran territories forced some improvisation, Luther could be hyperbolic in his denunciation of rival theologies, and American Lutherans have pressed for as egalitarian an ethos as their confessions will allow, but the logic of Luther's sacramentology points unambiguously toward the historic episcopate retained by the churches of Scandinavia. Every believer must know from Jesus Christ himself that God is saving her.
Serene Christian souls: I'm trying to catch up. What, if anything, is at stake in this... discussion... of the C16 indugences preached to finance St Peter's?
ReplyDeleteDaniel D. D. That is not how the debates went at all.
ReplyDeleteHave you actually read them? :) I can clearly see that you have a very solid idea what the Catholic teachings are supposed to be, but, I repeat, this is talking beside the moral issue. The moral issue was a fact, not a delusion. And the moral issue was not addressed, as testified by the next fact that Reformation exploded.
The doctrine was entirely secondary to Luther, even though he had learned to waffle in theological vocabulary so effectively that the main issue can easily get clouded. In my view, Luther's entire theology is only pious rhetorical fluff - just that. When you look past that fluff, you will see his point. He was pressing an emotional moral point.
Unfortunately, his opponents did not have any moral sensibilities, only doctrinal sensibilities. The debates were sheer talking past each other.
So, what is religion? Is it the doctrine or is it the morality? What is a good Christian like? Like a good Pharisee or like a good Samaritan? Which one does the Pope resemble more? This is what Reformation was about. Such questions bugged Luther and other reformists, and Roman Catholic Church was unable to provide any answer, except in terms of boring doctrine, which was itself under question, and threats.
Is it the doctrine or is it the morality?
DeleteBoth. False doctrine leads to evil. All I have to point out is to point out the difference between a liberal Christian vs a traditional Christian on abortion.
What is a good Christian like? Like a good Pharisee or like a good Samaritan? Which one does the Pope resemble more? This is what Reformation was about. Such questions bugged Luther and other reformists, and Roman Catholic Church was unable to provide any answer, except in terms of boring doctrine, which was itself under question, and threats.
Wait wait wait. Your saying that Luther rejected the Church because some Bishops were corrupt?
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach (Matthew 23:1-3)."
Just replace "Moses' seat" with "Peter's seat." If the Reformation is just a moral reform, then why did they change doctrine? St. Francis reformed the practice of the Church, yet didn't change doctrine. If Luther did that, he would probably be Canonized!
Luther was quite clear that he thought the Gospel of "Work salvation" that he thought the Catholic Church taught was false. You are literally claiming that we should ignore everything Luther said was the issue as not the issue, which doesn't make any sense.
Christi pax.
As nearly as I can tell, the classic Protestant objection to indulgences per se is only that they imply that God bases the justification of souls on good works, when God has already justified them by dying on the Cross. Full stop.
ReplyDeleteThe indulgence peddling that Luther protested did have its tacky, commercial aspect-- "When the coin in the box cha-chings/The soul from Purgatory springs!" That Germans were buying a big new cathedral for Italians also did not go unnoticed. When abuses were obvious, the local authorities were theoretically powerless to stop them, which induced German princes to look very hard at that theory. But the obvious scandal was followed by the obvious reforms. And they worked. No Catholic I know has bought an indulgence.
Now there was a Lutheran parish in some square state like Kansas that sold indulgences with their bishop's picture on them to pay their assessment. But I think that was done with tongue firmly in cheek.
It looks as though both sides in this... discussion... that I do not understand are right.
ReplyDeleteSeigner is right that every sit-down between the Germans and papal representatives escalated the conflict. In the circumstances, the latter needed to get just the opposite result and fast to keep the Northwest in the same church with the Southwest. They obviously failed.
Scott is right that the obvious, non-doctrinal scandal was met by the obvious, non-doctrinal reforms. Certainly by Trent.
But by then, the debate had spread to deeply doctrinal matters that made even intercommunion, let alone administrative unity, impossible. Eg-- If the pope has a Treasury of Merits, then why doesn't he just spend it to get everyone out of Purgatory? How do we know for sure that there is a Purgatory? Why are the Jews down the street less afraid of God than we are? Is there any end to the number of things you have to believe to be saved? Etc.
If the pope has a Treasury of Merits, then why doesn't he just spend it to get everyone out of Purgatory?
DeleteI don't think this is the correct teaching. The first misleading part is that the Pope has the Treasury, as if it belongs to the Pope of Rome, and he can do whatever he wants with it. Such thought is not correct, because the Treasury belongs to the whole Church. Instead of using the money metaphor, a body metaphor might be more appropriate.
If you have a weaken arm, say because it recently healed from a broken bone, how do you do what you always do, say lift an object, if your arm is weak? Well, you use the healthy arm, right?
Well, with the Body of Christ, the same principle applies. Those who go above and beyond the call of God's duty, the Saints, are the strong arm, while those who are repentant but do not go as far, like most of us and those in Purgatory especially, are like the weak arm. The strong arm makes up for what the weak arm doesn't have, just as the Saints on earth and in Heaven help make up for our failings.
I earlier used an Eastern phrase - Theosis - and described the Treasury as "Collective Theosis." The Saints, by going above and beyond in their own Sanctification, help us with our own! Thus the term "Collective Theosis." The Whole Body of Christ is further sanctified by the Holiness of each member.
I wish to point out that this in no way denys the infinite Merit of Christ's life, but rather works within that: both arms, the weak and the strong, are of the same body and cannot do anything with out it, just as both the Saints and those in cleansing cannot do anything without Christ. The strong arm makes up for the weak arm, but the strong arm cannot do anything without the Head. More formally, Christ uses our good works and everyone else's to sanctify the whole Church, including each member.
It's as if God is taking the Grace He already gave the Saints in Heaven, and multiplying it, as the fish and loaves, so that He can feed not only those in Heaven, but us still on Earth too (and Purgatory)!
To finish, i wish to point out that this is in a sense, a Christian extension to Jewish belief. God often shows mercy on Israel by remembering the faith and actions of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. In the exact same way, God shows Mercy on the whole Church by seeing the works of the Saints, including Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. The Jews even have a saying: 35 righteous men in all the world hold up the whole thing. The Holy deeds of the Saints hold up the rest of the Church, like me, who are a little slower.
So, for the layman, he can offer up sanctifying deeds for the Sanctification of those in Purgatory or on Earth as well as himself.
Christi pax
Anyway, Daniel, I hope that I have answered your question without boring you.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
DeleteNo, of course not!
I didn't want to respond until I mediated on it (I've just read through it once).
It seems Luther's objections to Transubstantiation is similar to what some Orthodox object to: both camps emphasis the Mystery, and claim that Transubstantiation is trying to rationalize it somehow. (I disagree with this assessment, but I'm trying to understand others' understandings here, not critique them). Is this basically correct?
In my original, uneducated opinion, I thought Luther rejected Transubstantiation because he saw it as justifying that the Mass is a Sacrifice. At the same time, Scripture and the Fathers clearly teach the real presence, so (again, as an uneducated opinion), Luther tried to form a sort of middle ground. I'm guessing I am hopelessly wrong, and Luther was objecting as I mentioned above.
I lastly wish to mention that your are right that often the Reformers are not as Protestant as Protestants. For example, all the major Reformers accepted the perpetual Virginity of the Virgin. I have also found that John Calvin was not always a Calvinist. I guess Luther wasn't always a Lutheran either :shrug:
Christi pax.
E.Seigner,
ReplyDelete[Luther] basically borrowed the theology, rewrote a bunch of the Catholic doctrine as he felt appropriate for his own new church, with the emphasis on morality and devotion. "Felt" is the right word here, instead of "thought", and "morality and devotion" too, instead of "logical coherence".
The doctrine was entirely secondary to Luther
So, what is religion? Is it the doctrine or is it the morality?
If, as you say, "The doctrine was entirely secondary to Luther," then -- in light of his having encouraged, nay, urged, the powers-that-be to put down the people who were following and/or had been egged on by his teaching -- it is hard to see in what way Luther might have contributed anything of relevance to a rational exploration of the question.
Of course, if rationality is to be ruled out as not to have anything to do with an exploration of the question (on the grounds that it is only what is "felt" about morality and devotion which matters and counts), then, basically, all we're left with is a collection of Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Emotobots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4ZGKI8vpcg
ReplyDeleteScott, I'm not sure why you need the name of a person to confirm my statement that the Church repeatedly condemned a set of practices. [...] Do you insist on being supplied the name of a convicted murderer before you'll accept that the Church condemns murder?
ReplyDeleteThe purpose with the way I formulated the question was to get at if Luther's concerns were appropriately addressed. My point is that if they had been addressed, Reformation could not have started and spread. They were not only Luther's concerns, mind you, but reflected wider popular grievances.
Scott, As others (including Daniel D. D. and Glenn) have pointed out, the issue of indulgences didn't have anything like the centrality you seem to want to assign it anyway. But there just isn't any question that the Church condemned the practices at issue.
And as I pointed out, the condemnation was condemnation in name only. It had no effect. To say that Church sometimes condemned some abuses was not a relevant answer to Luther (nevermind that the real-life historical debaters of Luther did not acknowledge that there was any problem with indulgences at all), because when the condemnation has no effect, then it's not condemnation in the relevant sense. Your reference confirms my point,
These measures show plainly that the Church long before the Reformation, not only recognized the existence of abuses, but also used her authority to correct them.
In spite of all this, disorders continued and furnished the pretext for attacks directed against the doctrine itself, no less than against the practice of indulgences.
So, what was the use of those condemnations and "corrections"?
Malleus Maleficarum was condemned three years after its publication, but was reprinted thirty times during the next century and used in courts in Catholic countries. This is not condemnation in the relevant sense.
You say abuses with indulgences were condemned, but the Pope sent out Johann Tetzel to collect money from the Germans to finance his new cathedral. This is not condemnation in the relevant sense.
Moreover, let's remember that that was the time of witchhunts and burning of heretics. So, Church's message was, kinda, "When we really condemn you, you're going to burn." By that measure, abuses of indulgences were not treated at all. Yet it was indulgences that provided the original impetus for Reformation, so it was an issue that perhaps should have been addressed properly, in a timely manner.
(s/b "...anything of relevance to an exploration of the question, let alone anything of relevance to a rational exploration of the question.")
ReplyDeletein the relevant sense.
ReplyDeleteThen you need to specify the relevant sense. In the period all major crimes were punished by death through beheading, hanging, burning, or the like; minor crimes like small theft were punished by fines, flogging, temporary confinement, or branding with irons. Which of these would the Church have had to do to count?
E.Seigner:
ReplyDeleteThe purpose with the way I formulated the question was to get at if Luther's concerns were appropriately addressed.
Then perhaps you're confusing me with some other poster with whom you're having some other argument. I was, and am, addressing exactly one thing: your question So, to be charitable to Luther, can we agree that his objection was not to your "strictly speaking" version of indulgences, but to the *actual* version as practised in his time?
The answer to that question was, and is still, No. Luther's objection (as regards indulgences) was to practices the Church itself condemned and had been condemning for centuries, not to the "actual" version of anything.
I take it that's settled since you now want to argue about something else, namely whether the Church's condemnation was effective.
Scott, I was, and am, addressing exactly one thing: your question So, to be charitable to Luther, can we agree that his objection was not to your "strictly speaking" version of indulgences, but to the *actual* version as practised in his time?
ReplyDeleteThe answer to that question was, and is still, No. Luther's objection (as regards indulgences) was to practices the Church itself condemned and had been condemning for centuries, not to the "actual" version of anything.
The actual version of indulgences was as practised by Johann Tetzel. Luther's debaters saw no problem with that. The wider population of Germany was in uproar because Germans were made to finance the Pope's new cathedral via sales of indulgences. Luther's debaters saw no problem with that. Luther's debaters saw only doctrinal problems with Luther, not moral problems with themselves.
And, with all respect, I am not debating any point. The points that I state are Luther's, not mine. I am not defending Luther, just listing facts about him. In my view, it's purposeless to debate facts.
And, with all respect, I am not debating any point. The points that I state are Luther's, not mine. I am not defending Luther, just listing facts about him. In my view, it's purposeless to debate facts.
ReplyDeleteThen what in the world explains your repeated responses to my questions about facts and your evidence for them as if I were engaging in an attack on Luther? Why in the world would someone not "debating any point" respond to a correction of a factual claim, like your claim that Catholics don't have indulgences anymore, by claiming that it is "quibbling over a side-issue"? Why do you keep making up nonexistent debates if you're not debating?
Anonymous wrote on August 3, 2015 at 12:01 PM:
ReplyDelete"Act V of the Council of Chalcedon defines that the one person of Christ has, not one nature-- human, divine, or blended-- but two-- one human, one divine. Luther's associate Johannes Brenz, took this to mean that, although the two natures are distinct, their properties may be exchanged, for that is the point of their being in one person."
My namesake got it all wrong. First at the theological level, because his interpretation stands directly against the definition by Chalcedon:
"We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis."
Secondly at the philosophical level, because "the point of the two natures being in one person" is that in Jesus there is only one Act of Being, the eternal, Subsistent Act of Being of the Word. This is most clearly seen when Jesus said: "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I Am" (Jn 8: 58). Because otherwise He should have said "before Abraham came to be, I Am in my divine nature". Therefore his human essence does not exist by a created, contingent act of being, but by the Subsistent Act of Being of the Word.
Of course, the first error is much graver than the second, because the definition by Chalcedon is de fide catholica, whereas the notion of personhood as the act of being of "an individual substance of a rational nature" is Thomistic doctrine (and more specifically, Billot's version thereof.)
"So Brenz proposed the communicatio idiomatum-- Christ's divine property of ubiquity enabled his glorified humanity to be present where he said it would be-- with his disciples to the end of the age."
There is no need whatsoever for the divine property of ubiquity to enable Jesus' humanity (either before or after being glorified) to be present where He said it would be, as divine omnipotence suffices for that. It is by divine omnipotence that Jesus can unite his soul to the consecrated bread (or wine) as its substantial form, which BTW He personally did at the Last Super before being glorified.
Brandon, ... like your claim that Catholics don't have indulgences anymore, by claiming that it is "quibbling over a side-issue"? Why do you keep making up nonexistent debates if you're not debating?
ReplyDeleteBecause the facts that I am talking are facts about Luther. The current doctrine about indulgences is irrelevant to Luther. The historical condemnations of ancient indulgences are also irrelevant to Luther. Indulgences as practised in Luther's time are relevant to Luther.
You are all smart and brilliant people. If Luther's debaters had been as smart and brilliant as you, maybe Reformation could have been averted. Just a little bit more acknowledgement of the moral issues that Luther brought up, and it probably could have been averted. Alas, Luther's debaters did not recognise the socio-political climate that the Church had landed in...
Because the facts that I am talking are facts about Luther.
ReplyDeleteYou were the one who brought up current Catholic indulgence practice; you are, in fact, as far as I can see, the only reason it came up at all.
You are all smart and brilliant people. If Luther's debaters had been as smart and brilliant as you, maybe Reformation could have been averted. Just a little bit more acknowledgement of the moral issues that Luther brought up, and it probably could have been averted. Alas, Luther's debaters did not recognise the socio-political climate that the Church had landed in...
Here you are doing exactly what I pointed out. If you are not debating, why in the world are you treating everything everyone says as an anti-Lutheran debating point rather than an attempt to do justice to the facts?
Brandon, Here you are doing exactly what I pointed out. If you are not debating, why in the world are you treating everything everyone says as an anti-Lutheran debating point rather than an attempt to do justice to the facts?
ReplyDeleteIt's a matter of fact that the Church made a series of grave errors of judgement concerning Luther. The relative superiority or inferiority of Protestant and Catholic doctrines is totally irrelevant to this fact, because the error was political, not doctrinal. So, when you analyze the doctrines to determine whether Luther was right in this or that, this is all past the main issue. The main issue was moral corruption of the Catholic Church - right up to the Pope.
This moral issue had made entire Germany boil with fury, not only Luther, so it was a grave error of judgement to ignore it at the time. As the historical facts stand, the Church consistently ignored the issue.
So, what I am saying is that the reason to get rid of papal power was moral (and wider social, as Luther immediately found major political allies), not doctrinal. When someone appeals to the doctrine of e.g. papal infallibility to argue against this, he is simply talking past the point.
Just giving you some Protestant perspective, that's all. I grew up in a traditionally Protestant country, so I know the perspective.
Daniel, used with respect to the eucharist, the language of sacrifice can arouse the suspicion of some Protestants that some new work is being done to earn justification as though Christ's own sacrifice were not sufficient. But so far Luther was concerned, if UOJ is clear, then there is nothing wrong with eg the (Anglican) Book of Common Prayer's description of the mass as "a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving."
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
DeleteIf you go down the "Reply as" option and select "Name/URL," you can type whatever Name you want as a username, without having to sign up for anything (very quick) Just don't choose Daniel D. D. :-)
Anyway, I'm not familiar with the Anglican Book of Prayer, so I'm not familiar with what they mean by Sacrifice. What Catholic (and really all Apostolic Christians) mean by Sacrifice is that, in the Liturgy, we are experiencing all of salvation history, including the Sacrifice of the Cross. The Passion is not represented, or remembered, or reenacted, or merely symbolic, but truly real. One commentator wrote that not only is Christ fully present as the Mass, but the congregation is fully present at the Cross. The Real Presence is both ways.
This two-way real prenence is the same way Jews then and today view Passover, and the Last Supper was itself a Seder meal. We do call the Mystery on Calvary Paschal, after all.
All of this is not mystical woo-woo either, but a direct promised from God Himself.
Christi pax.
Daniel, by all means fire away on those "deeply doctrinal matters" in my 12:59, if you like. But my only concern in listing popular issues of C16 Germany is not that I care about them, but that they explain the escalation of the conflict from the mainly socio-political one that Seigner describes into the doctrinal impasse that finally pulled the Northwest away from the Southwest.
ReplyDeleteOn transubstantiation, Daniel, what Lutherans and the Orthodox have in common is a recognition that late antique philosophical language is not well adapted to talk about the biblical God. Through seven ecumenical councils, the East tried to hammer that language into a more usable shape. In the Northwest, Luther begins a different project of using the biblical language itself to do work that scholastics had used Greek philosophy to do. The reliance on 'the spiritual sense' in St Thomas, Luther, and say, St Maximum is interesting, but it would be a mistake to think that any of the three were just romanticizing where clear thought was possible.
ReplyDeleteOrthodox have in common is a recognition that late antique philosophical language is not well adapted to talk about the biblical God.
DeleteYes, they often say that. My defense of philosophical langauges is 1) the Eastern Fathers (Basil, Athanasius, Gregory, etc.) used philosophical langauge (and many had a love of philosophy, especially the Alexandrian Fathers), and 2) the Councils use such language (homoousian).
If they claim that the language is wrong, or useless, then they are denying their own Tradition. However, if they are just saying that the doctrine dosnt exhaust the Mystery, the Latin Church never disagreed with them. In a certain sense, the Eastern Fatherd transform and deepen the Platonic system they worked in by integrating it to Christ. I believe St. Thomas did the same thing to Aristotle.
Luther begins a different project of using the biblical language itself to do work that scholastics had used Greek philosophy to do.
Which is interesting, because I do think that such a style of theology did appear somewhat in the counter-reformation, and even before Luther.
I think theologians like N. T. Wright are attempting to do the same thing today.
Christi pax.
Opps. You basically said the same thing as me, Anon, sorry :-)
DeleteChristi pax.
That should read *Maximus*
ReplyDeleteDid you know that, in hell, all the conversations are tapped into keypads with auto-correct?
That should read *Maximus*
ReplyDeleteDid you know that, in hell, all the conversations are tapped into keypads with auto-correct?
Well, that's weird. I had thought auto-correct was supposed to minimus spelling errors.
Worse, all the conversations in hell are Facebook fights about... Oh, never mind.
ReplyDeleteThe challenge to one's recollected calm is that one's auto-correct changes one's words well after one has moved on to another sentence.
ReplyDeleteThe challenge to one's recollected calm is that one's auto-correct changes one's words well after one has moved on to another sentence
DeleteA gift from God to learn patience :-)
Christi pax.
Daniel, I enjoyed your comment on the Treasury of Merit. It pays to examine teaching for its unstated implications for human solidarity.
ReplyDeleteRelated and also revealing-- a teaching's implicit understanding of the activity of the Holy Spirit.
The Orthodox (over-)react against shallow identification of their theology with Platonism. Bulgakov, Lossky, Yannaras, Zizioulas, Hart-- auto-correct really hates Orthodox theologians-- are clearly doing interesting things with philosophical ideas.
ReplyDelete(The challenge to one's recollected calm is that one's auto-correct changes one's words well after one has moved on to another sentence.
ReplyDelete(I don't use a device with auto-correct (as I consider myself sufficiently competent to make mistakes without assistance), but, yup, I well appreciate the point.)
Although Anglican-- he might say *because* he is Anglican-- Tom Wright is advancing, maybe exhausting, the Reformed project of articulating a coherent Judaic worldview over against Hellenism, especially Enlightenment Epicureanism.
ReplyDeleteYes, Glenn, it's especially odd of auto-correct to propose gibberish as an alternative to good Latin. As your mother said, if you can't say something that reflects proper English syllabification, don't say anything at all. Auto-correct was an orphan, I think
ReplyDeleteManana. See it can't spell in Spanish either.
ReplyDeleteThe relative superiority or inferiority of Protestant and Catholic doctrines is totally irrelevant to this fact, because the error was political, not doctrinal. So, when you analyze the doctrines to determine whether Luther was right in this or that, this is all past the main issue.
ReplyDeleteSince I have at no point whatsoever discussed the relative superiority or inferiority of Protestant and Catholic doctrines on indulgences, and several others of your interlocutors have simply been arguing that statements you yourself have made are not accurate or at least unclear, I don't see the relevance of this response.
Just giving you some Protestant perspective, that's all. I grew up in a traditionally Protestant country, so I know the perspective.
Fair enough, although lots of people here are familiar with Protestant perspectives. I know quite a bit of Protestant perspective myself, for instance; I grew up Southern Baptist, and most of my family is either Presbyterian (the Scottish branch) or Lutheran (the Scandinavian branch).
Brandon, Since I have at no point whatsoever discussed the relative superiority or inferiority of Protestant and Catholic doctrines on indulgences...
ReplyDeleteBecause the point is not about the doctrine on indulgences, but about doctrine as such. The point is that any time you try to make a point about any doctrine in relation with Luther's reformation, you are missing his point. To Reformation it doesn't matter if Luther was right or wrong about doctrine or if he was right or wrong about anything.
To Reformation it matters that Luther had a point and the German people stood behind it. Luther had muscle and he was ready to use it. And the Protestant perspective is that Catholic Church had perpetrated offenses (nothing doctrinal per se, but just ripping people off and then being a jerk about it) which had provided the motive to use the muscle. It's a completely pragmatic point.
If the point is about doctrine as such, and it doesn't matter whether Luther was right or wrong about doctrine, then it must be the case that grommets are shaped like squares.
ReplyDeleteOTOH, if all that matters is that Luther had a point, and it doesn't matter whether he was right or wrong about anything, then it must be the case that grommets are shaped like triangles.
Dr. Feser demonstrates brilliant superiority of Jesuit rhetoric and logic, if we frame the issue as a standoff between Lutheran and Catholic doctrine on the status of the scriptures. This is all nice and good. I whole-heartedly concede this point.
ReplyDeleteExcept that from the perspective of Lutheran Reformation, this is the wrong frame, irrelevant to the actual historical context. From the perspective of Lutheran Reformation, Tetzel was a manifestation of Church's moral corruption, ripping off German people to finance the Pope's new cathedral. Since Tetzel was sent personally by the Pope, this meant that the Pope himself was the real source of the corruption. These are statements about the moral character of the people, not about their doctrines.
This is the problem that Luther brought up, a moral problem. You are free to disagree that Tetzel presented a moral problem. You are free to disagree that the Pope and the Church were incorrigibly corrupt. You are free to disagree that papal nuncio was a manipulative jerk. But this is the actual standoff at the time that brought about Reformation.
You can handily refute the doctrine of Sola scriptura - and Dr. Feser does - but this does nothing to address the popular moral judgement about the Catholic Church that was the actual cause of the Reformation.
In my opinion, when Sola scriptura is put into the actual historical context, the argument about "circular reasoning" becomes irrelevant. Sola scriptura was prompted by the pragmatic need to replace papal authority. The need was pragmatic. There was no other reasoning behind Sola scriptura, circular or otherwise.
So, E.Seigner, you are basically saying that Luther had little faith in Christ's promise that the "gates of Hell will not prevail," as well as ignoring the Parable of the Wheat and Tares?
DeleteAgain, not only does this deny what Luther said, but also paints him as worse than a Catholic would.
Now, if you say that the Reformeration as a whole was motivated by corruption, then I'm more sympathetic. As I pointed out, Protestantism was a top-down approach by equally corrupt politicians, who had little faith in Christ's words.
Are you sure you aren't Catholic? You are literally claiming that the Reformation denied Scripture, Tradition, and history for political reform, which actually made the political situation worse.
Christi pax.
Are you saying, Seigner, that if the pope, Tetzel, and the papal nuncio had been persons revered by all for their saintliness--
ReplyDelete(a) German peasants would not have objected to buying Italians a cathedral?
(b) German princes would not have been concerned that they had no control over papal personnel in their lands?
(c) Luther and those like him would have approved of a teaching that Christ's oblation on the cross was not sufficient to atone for the sins of the world?
This seems a stretch.
Since the founding document of the Reformation is a political document signed by German princes, you are on firm ground in insisting that the Reformation had a socio-political dimension. Since time runs forward, you are reasonable in denying that the new, improved Catholicism formulated at Trent had much causal influence on events that happened in the generation before in northern Germany.
But it is more likely that persons found the character of the papalists to be egregiously wanting because they already disagreed with them, than that they decided to form a military alliance because the pope, Tetzel, and the nuncio were such s*** of b******. The proposed cause seems too weak for the prodigious effects. Rather, a long southwestern domination of the affairs of northwestern Europe had become unsustainable, and papal power was rolled back on every front.
In the popular mind it may have been personal; that is how the popular mind thinks. George III, Lord North, and the Secretary for the Colonies were no less saintly than other British kings and councillors, but on the eve of the Boston Tea Party, it might not have been safe to say so in the streets of Boston. Friends do become frenemies before they are defriended. But the decision is taken on the basis of enduring interests.
Very, VERY OT, but since this thread is closing in on 300 comments, what the hey. Besides, I've learned a lot in this forum and couldn't resist bringing this up.
ReplyDeleteI was listening to William Lane Craig's 'Reasonable Faith' broadcast and the subject of Thomism and universals came up. If you get the chance, take a listen. The relevant bit starts around the ten minute mark:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/whatever-happened-to-intelligent-design
Unbelievably, Craig insists that Thomas Aquinas was a NOMINALIST regarding universals. That is, Aquinas thought that universals exist only in the mind, NOT in actual things (on my understanding this is conceptualism, not nominalism, but whatever). I've listened to this podcast several times and Craig really does seem to attribute to Thomas the view that the essence of a horse doesn't exist in the horse itself but only in the mind. If this is true, then my understanding of Thomas is totally incorrect. Hell, if Craig is right I don't see how Thomism is even coherent. Could any of you super-smart Thomists (Brandon? Scott?) help me see either my error or Craig's?
Conor,
Deletehttps://thomism.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/st-thomas-on-the-universal-and-particular-in-things/
Christi pax.
Yes, Daniel, anamnesis theology was retrieved in the early C20 Liturgical Movement (in Dom Gregory Dix's Shape of the Liturgy?), and has since been a sort of litmus test separating churches whose liturgies are participations in mysteries from churches whose liturgies are purely didactic or present-bound. Thanks for the reminder.
ReplyDeleteYes, Johannes, Brenz did not use the scholastic argument from omnipotence. I think you can see that it would not have been helpful to a Lutheran defending the real presence to the Zwinglian Reformed in the C16.
ReplyDeleteNo, Brenz could read the text of Act V as well as you or I can, of course. But the definition's trajectory in the East shows it to be about more than excluding Monophysitism. Consider, for example, the use that St Maximus makes of it to explain Christ's mediation of the famous polarities in eg Ambigua 42. Brenz seems well within that scope.
Daniel, if you compare eucharistic prayers 1, 2, 3, and 4 in the Roman Missal with eucharistic prayers A, B, C, D in the Book of Common Prayer (USA 1979), you may be surprised by something ;-)
ReplyDeleteThe point is that any time you try to make a point about any doctrine in relation with Luther's reformation, you are missing his point.
ReplyDeleteExcept that as everyone can see who can read the thread, I have not tried to make any point about any doctrine in relation with Luther's reformation. I have done exactly and only three things:
* Corrected your mistake about Catholics no longer having indulgences.
* Asked about your claim that Tetzel was chosen to represent the Church in debate with Luther
* Asked about the source for your claim that Tetzel's discrediting had nothing whatsoever to do with indulgences.
It's you who have repeatedly tried take this discussion in a doctrinal direction, and I have repeatedly had to correct you and recall you to the actual point.
Conor,
ReplyDeleteI'm not able to listen to it at the moment, but, assuming your summary is correct, it sounds very strange. For Aquinas, essentia is closely related to esse, being. Essence is that according to which a thing is said to be, so to say that the essence is not in the thing would be tantamount to saying that they have no being. Likewise, essence is what is signified by the real definition; but real definitions are definitions of the things themselves. It would also be difficult to make sense of claims like 'God's essence is not other than his esse' if essences were only in the mind.
(Nominalism is sometimes used in broader or narrower senses; used in a broader sense, which is fairly common, it would include conceptualism.)
Hi Brandon,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your prompt and to the point response. What you've described is precisely the view I thought Thomas held.
I esteem Craig highly—indeed, watching his many debates on Youtube brought me to theism—so when he says something, I take note. And, to be fair, the bit in question consists only of a few minutes of a much longer podcast. (Also, Craig is discussing not his own work but the writings of a Thomist named J.T. Bridges who Craig seems to agree with.) Anyway, I thought the proposition that Thomas denied moderate realism (which Craig explicitly asserts) was bizarre enough to be worth noting.
(BTW, as a longtime lurker and infrequent commenter at this blog, I'd like to thank you for the many substantive posts you've made over the years. I was baptized into the Church this Easter due in no small part to the back-and-forth that goes on here, which helped immensely in clarifying certain difficult aspects of Thomas's thought.)
Thanks again,
Conor
Sorry, Johannes, the locus classicus for St Maximus's polarities is a bit before at Amb.t. 41:16. I don't have HUP's new Dumbarton Oaks edition with me here, but in a free download Migne, it is in PG 91 at 1305D. Enjoy :-)
ReplyDeleteDaniel D.D.
ReplyDeleteThank you for that link as well.
Welcome on board the Ark!
DeleteChristi pax.
Conor:
ReplyDeleteJust a couple of points to add to Brandon's reply.
As Brandon says, Aquinas certainly didn't think essences aren't "in" the things whose essences they are. But for the problem of universals, I think the more important question concerns forms. We have two horses, let's say; do they literally share a common form? If they do, then that form is a real universal.
Aquinas's answer is nuanced. He denies that the two horses have numerically the same form (they are two horses, after all) but acknowledges that they're formally identical.
On a more modern approach to the problem of universals, we'd probably respond to the first point by saying Yes, but that's consistent with the horses' being two different instantiations of one and the same form/universal.
Aquinas would agree and note that the horses are individuated by their matter; indeed here and there in his writings he specifically acknowledges forms as "universals" when regarded in a certain way. Moreover, although I'm not aware that he ever quite makes the following argument, I think he's committed to forms-as-universals by principles that we know he accepts: if two horses can cause our intellect to receive one and the same form, then that form must be identically present in each of the horses, as causes can't confer what they don't possess.
However, I think that for him this is a bit of a side issue. His primary concern is to show that our universal concepts are in some way grounded in the real "things" that they're concepts of. For that, it suffices to show that (in our example) two horses are formally identical, whether or not they literally share a form in common. In that respect he's answering a slightly different question from the more modern formulation of the problem of universals.
Among his successors, when directly addressing the question whether two formally identical things literally have some one "thing" in common, some (e.g. Scotus) say, "Obviously yes," and others (e.g. Suárez) say, "Obviously no." Scotus's view is closer to Aquinas's, I think, but my real point here is that nobody seems to have regarded precisely this question as "the problem of universals" and, although Aquinas does generally come down on the side of what we would today call "reaism," he doesn't need to settle that question in order to count as a "realist" (vs. "nominalist") in medieval terms.
Hope that helps.
I'm in the process of joining the Church as well, and for many of the same reasons. Since the process isn't yet complete and I'm not yet a member, it would be presumptuous of me to "welcome" you, but I think I can safely congratulate you. :-)
Oops: for "reaism" read "realism."
ReplyDelete(Possibly even more OT: As I just mentioned to an off-list correspondent a couple of days ago, my priest told me that I was the first person in his fifty-year career to ask him to bless a St. Thomas medal. He seemed pleased; I hope St. Thomas is as well.)
ReplyDeleteDaniel C.C. You are literally claiming that the Reformation denied Scripture, Tradition, and history for political reform, which actually made the political situation worse.
ReplyDeleteI am literally only listing historical facts from the Protestant perspective and nothing else. Luther's gripe was not with Scripture, Tradition, "history of political reform" (how did this even get here?) or such. Luther's gripe was with the moral behaviour of the Church representatives. It's a historical fact that the Church representatives left a worse impression on him as the conflict persisted.
One more example: Luther called the Pope Anti-Christ. What was he thinking, as per you? Was his statement due to failure to properly understand the doctrine on papal infallibility? Was he intending to devise an alternate doctrine on papal authority? Not at all. His very simple point was that the Pope was morally reprehensible and the whole Catholic Church with him. That's all there is to it.
The nature of the disagreements between Catholicism and early Protestantism is moral, not doctrinal. The response that Catholics devised was absolutely irrelevant to the moral point. The Counter-Reformation failed to convince anybody because, while it can be deemed intellectually superior, it's morally irrelevant. The driving force behind Protestantism was wounded moral sensibilities due to the historical events commonly known.
When somebody says, "The Pope is Anti-Christ!" (which was the common cry of all denominations of Protestantism from the beginning) the relevant response is not "Look, friend, let me explain to you the correct teachings on indulgences, papal infallibility, Scripture, etc. as we Catholics understand it..." This kind of answers gave Jesuits their reputation in Protestant lands.
E.Seigner,
DeleteNo. If just corruption was the problem, Luther would not do what he did, becuase then he would be stupid, period. He had serious doctrine disagreements, or at least seemingly so (Peter Kreeft thinks that Luther and the Catholics were equivocating on "faith," but his idea of Grace is false).
According to your position, Luther rediscovered or started or whatever the real Church, contra the Catholic Church, as one without sinners, because according to what you think Luther thought, the real Church doesn't possess sinners, especially in leadership. But one of the big doctrines of the reformed is total depravity! So if everyone is deprived, including the Pope, the Pope being a sinner is expected.
St. John calls those who don't preach the Incarnation anti-Christ, and St. Paul calls those who "teach another Gospel" anti-Christ. If being a sinner is the definition of anti-Christ, then the Apostles were anti-Christ.
Christi pax.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteOf course it was not only personal - because most of the people never met the dudes Luther met. The wider political dimension has a longer history and more complex aspects. Just trying to keep things simple and brief here. The main point is that, any way you look at it, Jesuit charges like "circular reasoning" and "Nominalist view of Grace" provide no explanation at all to the historical facts about Reformation.
perhaps of interest to Conor/Brandon/Scott:
ReplyDelete"Aquinas and Realism" John Haldane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MnS6A7mzwE
Anonymous (not any of the above on this thread)
Hi Scott,
ReplyDeleteYou're not Catholic? Mind=blown. Your comments have been so helpful and insightful that I'd just assumed you were. Plus, your exchanges with a certain commenter a while back (I'll call him “Tanti Safarilla”) displayed the patience of saint ;)
Thank you for your clarifying comments re: forms and universals. That was a big help. I will confess that my knowledge of Thomism comes mostly from popular and secondary sources (Feser, of course, but also Mortimer Adler, Peter Kreeft, Fr. Spitzer, Chesteron, etc.) and so I would be admittedly lost in any highly technical battle between the medieval greats.
But let me dive in anyway...
Say we have two horses, side by side. They are of the same breed, same height, same color etc. Now if I'm getting you right, according to Thomas what it is to be THIS horse as opposed to THAT horse is to have the same form but differing matter (matter understood in the Aristotelian sense, that is, matter as potentia\the principle of individuation). In more scholastic terms, each horse is a separate act of existence conjoined to one and the same essence. Is this correct, or am I perhaps stumbling with the phrase “one and the same”?
And thanks for the welcome! Are you still in the inquiry phase of RCIA or have you moved on to the catechumen\candidate phase?
P.S. You guys have a pretty heated and in-depth exchange going on, so if this is too much of a thread derail, I understand.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteConor:
ReplyDeleteYou're not Catholic? Mind=blown. Your comments have been so helpful and insightful that I'd just assumed you were.
In spirit, yes. Officially, not yet but soon; I'll be starting RCIA in September. And thank you; I've received worse compliments than being mistaken for Catholic. ;-)
Now if I'm getting you right, according to Thomas what it is to be THIS horse as opposed to THAT horse is to have the same form but differing matter (matter understood in the Aristotelian sense, that is, matter as potentia\the principle of individuation). In more scholastic terms, each horse is a separate act of existence conjoined to one and the same essence. Is this correct…?
Well, to one and the same form; each horse has its own essence. (An easy way to see that they're not the same: forms are immaterial, but it surely belongs to the essence of a horse—whether this horse or the kind "horse"—to be material.)
But yes, other than that you have it right. That's Aquinas's view as I understand it, and at any rate it's a straightforward development of his view whether he ever made it explicit himself.
Now, I think that view is correct, but my other point is that it's possible to accept Aquinas's view of formal identity and material individuation while still being what in modern parlance would be called a "nominalist." And that's where I think the confusion comes in.
Aquinas himself did in fact think that (at least from one point of view) two horses share one and the same form, but his account of how our concepts are grounded wouldn't have suffered if he hadn't. As far as I can see (though as always I'm open to correction), it simply plays no role there.
As a result it's possible in principle to accept his account and say, "Yes, that's all correct as far as it goes, but the two horses still have two different forms even though they're exactly alike." (IT's even possible to read isolated passages of Aquinas as though he thought this himself.) Today that view would be regarded not as realism but as resemblance nominalism, and I've seen writers other than WLC attribute it to Scholastic/Thomistic moderate realism (Paul Vincent Spade, for example).
I think it's a mistake to attribute it to Aquinas, but it's an understandable one. It took me a while to arrive at my present opinion (and of course I may still be wrong!).
@ Scott
ReplyDeleteI'll be starting RCIA in September.
Glad to hear it. I hope your program isn't too bad.
Thanks, Greg. Me too. ;-)
ReplyDeleteHi Scott,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
'Well, to one and the same form; each horse has its own essence. (An easy way to see that they're not the same: forms are immaterial, but it surely belongs to the essence of a horse—whether this horse or the kind "horse"—to be material.)'
Ah, that was most helpful. It also clarified for me Aquinas's view of angels, i.e. how each angel can be an essence conjoined to an act of existence yet still be immaterial and not participate in any higher form. The essence\existence distinction was always self-evidently clear to me; the essence\form distinction, not so much. Thank you.
Have fun during RCIA. I was surprised both at how much I enjoyed the process and how much I got out of it. Both the clergy and laity involved were unfailingly generous with their time, and it was heartening to see just how many candidates and catechumens were enrolled.
Thanks, Conor.
ReplyDeleteGlad you are happy in what you believe, Johannes.
ReplyDeleteE.Seigner:
ReplyDeleteWhen somebody says, "The Pope is Anti-Christ!" (which was the common cry of all denominations of Protestantism from the beginning) the relevant response is not "Look, friend, let me explain to you the correct teachings on indulgences, papal infallibility, Scripture, etc. as we Catholics understand it..."
It is, however, a relevant response to someone of the present day who thinks that when Luther declared the papacy to be the Antichrist, he wasn't thereby implying anything about Church doctrine.
Anonymous (August 4, 2015 at 11:06 AM):
Thanks for the URL of the Haldane presentation. I haven't had time to watch it yet but it certainly looks like it will be of interest.
(1) Nominalist view of Grace ---> Reformation
ReplyDelete(2) Socio-politics & Bad Dudes ---> Reformation
Seigner, I do not see why (1) or (2) or both could not be among the independent, non-redundant, unnecessary, sufficient (INUS) causes of the Reformation. Is there a point to battling (1) that I am missing?
Daniel, this paper in the JETS looks useful: Donald Fairbairn, 'Patristic Soteriology: Three Trajectories'. He is contrasting two different sorts of theosis, one from Irenaeus (partcipative) and another from Origen (mystical), with the usual juridical soteriology of the West. JETS papers are free. Worth a google.
ReplyDeleteWhy do they call it auto-correct when it changes *participative* to what you see?
ReplyDeleteWhy do they call it auto-correct when it changes *participative* to what you see?
ReplyDeleteProgress in engineering works by building on prior art. We used to have to make our own spelling errors from scratch, but now, with auto-correct, we can incorporate other people's.
*The first person in his fifty-year career to ask him to bless a St Thomas medal*
ReplyDeleteA revolution spreads... ;-)
Daniel C. C. According to your position, Luther rediscovered or started or whatever the real Church, contra the Catholic Church, as one without sinners, because according to what you think Luther thought, the real Church doesn't possess sinners, especially in leadership.
ReplyDeleteI have been quite emphatically stressing that Luther was acting from moral offendedness. He didn't think. He was offended and he acted from that. He was a pious man whose mission was to uphold devotion and virtues. Logical coherence was secondary, if it was there at all.
Some people have emotions and moral sensibilities before intellect. Luther was like that. And he was still a human being, believe it or not. Simple people exist, you know.
Your mistake is in the assumption that everybody should have thorough rationality first and actions later. Reformation was not like that. The sales of indulgences provided the occasion for Luther's anti-papal outburst and it happened to strike a nerve across nations, so Luther became a national hero. Reformation was a widespread socio-political phenomenon where intellectual arguments hardly play any role.
In reality, sometimes things simply happen, regardless of your reasoning. In this particular case, the Catholic Church had long been begging for something very bad to happen to itself. Why don't you figure out the intellectual rationale behind Church's consistent PR blunders around the era of Reformation? Perhaps the simple fact is that there was no rationale.
When Reformation had become irreversible, Catholics blamed everybody else's insubordination and imperfect indoctrination, instead of recognising the need to correct their own moral flaws, the flaws which had been pointed out to them as clearly as humanly possible. Catholic doctrine might have been intellectually perfect, but the moral and social incompetence was correspondingly profound.
I think this talking past each other cannot get any worse, but maybe you can prove me wrong.
ESeigner,
ReplyDeleteI think this talking past each other cannot get any worse, but maybe you can prove me wrong.
I'd like to try.
- - - - -
You can handily refute the doctrine of Sola scriptura - and Dr. Feser does -
Actually, Dr. Feser did not refute the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, let alone handily refute it. What he did do, and with his usual clarity, was show that Sola Scriptura is self-refuting. And if you've been paying attention to the recent OPs, then you know that he is not the first to have shown that Sola Scriptura is self-refuting. In fact, people have been showing that Sola Scriptura is self-refuting for several centuries now.
but this does nothing to address the popular moral judgement about the Catholic Church that was the actual cause of the Reformation.
It also does nothing to address the variation in gasoline taxes from state to state. But the attention given to Sola Scriptura by Dr. Feser was no more meant to have anything to do with the variation in gasoline taxes from state to state, than it was meant to have anything to do with addressing any alleged cause of the Reformation.
- - - - -
How'd I do? Did I succeed in talking past you?
;)
Glenn, Actually, Dr. Feser did not refute the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, let alone handily refute it. What he did do, and with his usual clarity, was show that Sola Scriptura is self-refuting. And if you've been paying attention to the recent OPs, then you know that he is not the first to have shown that Sola Scriptura is self-refuting. In fact, people have been showing that Sola Scriptura is self-refuting for several centuries now.
ReplyDeleteIf you are saying here that a demonstration that the opponent's position is self-refuting does not refute the oppent's position, then okay, as you please. I'll let you have it that Dr. Feser did not refute Sola scriptura.
Glenn, It also does nothing to address the variation in gasoline taxes from state to state. But the attention given to Sola Scriptura by Dr. Feser was no more meant to have anything to do with the variation in gasoline taxes from state to state, than it was meant to have anything to do with addressing any alleged cause of the Reformation.
Whatever the alleged cause of the Reformation was, the historical fact is that Reformation exploded in the hands of papal emissaries who were sent to handle the situation. This demonstrates their utter social incompetence. Here I am not saying anything about the Catholic doctrine and I am not making up religious, philosophical or sociological theories. I am only pointing out a clear instance of social incompetence.
You think that Luther had doctrinal quibble and then came to the conclusion that the Pope was Anti-Christ. I say the opposite. Luther concluded, based on the moral state of the Church, that Pope was Anti-Christ and his doctrinal adjustments were corollaries to this. This is the point where I think we are talking past each other.
To add to my last sentence: I think this is the manner in which the papal emissaries misjudged what actually pressed Luther, and also the manner in which the entire Jesuit project has always failed to address the actual issue.
ReplyDeleteThe Jesuit project is approaching the disagreement between Catholicism and Protestantism as if Protestants, first and foremost, thought that such-and-such Catholic doctrines were false. This is the wrong approach. Protestants, first and foremost, think that the Catholic Church is mean and evil and therefore, following from the first point, Catholic doctrines cannot be right. The disagreement is fundamentally moral, not doctrinal.
ReplyDeleteThis is clearly seen from the fact that all Protestants, both historically and nowadays, make up their doctrine in an ad hoc manner, they have a high volatility of sects and denominations, and they are all easily charged with logical incoherence. To attack their logical incoherence is to attack the easy target and it fails to engage the real target.
Protestants all agree that the Catholic Church cannot be right - because the Pope is evil. This is the Protestant perspective. The Jesuit project has consistently ignored this actual issue that lies at the very heart of Protestantism.
The Jesuit project has consistently ignored this actual issue that lies at the very heart of Protestantism
ReplyDeleteReminds me of a joke. The Jesuits were formed to counter Protestantism. The Domincans were formed to counter Albigensianism. So what's the difference between the Jesuits and the Dominicans?
Have you ever met an Albigensian?
Seigner,
ReplyDeleteProtestants do not agree that the Pope is evil.
Your position on sola scriptura is not Protestant.
I herewith demand to see your credentials for speaking for all Protestants.
Anonymous, It's not a matter of religious affiliation, doctrinal leanings or whatever. Just a matter of facing the historical facts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_Papacy#Reformation
ReplyDeleteE.Seigner, I have already shown that Jesus himself said that there will be "Tares" in the Church, and so the Protestants, if hatred of the corruption in the Church was their main motive, would be faithless and self refuting (all I have to do is find one sinner in a Protestant sects to reject it, at least in leadership, by such logic).
DeleteTo put it in a way Dr. Feser's would, you are abstracting one issue from the whole and trying to reduce all of the issue to the one abstracted.
Christi pax.
Anonymous, It's not a matter of religious affiliation, doctrinal leanings or whatever. Just a matter of facing the historical facts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_Papacy#Reformation
ReplyDeleteRight. Many denominations explicitly built anti-Catholicism into their creeds. Later, some took them out. We're they right or wrong to do so? Who gets to decide? Why do they get to decide? If they are wrong or were wrong at some point, what else are they wrong about? It's a doctrinal roulette-wheel: 'round n' 'round she goes; where she stops, nobody knows.
Conor,
ReplyDeleteI esteem Craig highly—indeed, watching his many debates on Youtube brought me to theism—so when he says something, I take note.
If there's one thing that Craig is good at, it's doing his homework (a reason why he usually trounces people in debates), so it's possible he's just using somewhat idiosyncratic definitions of the terms involved -- perhaps for the reasons Scott notes.
A belated welcome to the Church! The faith isn't founded on argument, but a nice secondary advantage of it is that it avoids confusing humility before the truth with intellectual timidity, so, however much we may fall short, it still may shine through in intellectual discussion and debate. I think it's an increasingly common path these days.
Daniel D. D. I have already shown that Jesus himself said that there will be "Tares" in the Church, and so the Protestants, if hatred of the corruption in the Church was their main motive, would be faithless and self refuting (all I have to do is find one sinner in a Protestant sects to reject it, at least in leadership, by such logic).
ReplyDeleteThe last thing first: It was not a logic issue. It was a moral issue.
The "Tare" happened to be a succession of Popes. This was the Protestant consensus at the time. How do you deal with such a "Tare"? In Protestant view, the only thing left to do was to institute new Churches and denominations. In their view this was fully justified because it was not just a "Tare" we are talking about, but Anti-Christ himself!
This view has fundamentally remained the same, it's just that the current Protestant bishops are more diplomatic about it now. And this is diplomacy, not doctrine.
E.Seigner,
ReplyDeleteI'll let you have it that Dr. Feser did not refute Sola scriptura.
This is kind of you, so thank you. And that I might return one kindness for another kindness, permit me to let you have it that that which is self-refuting does not refute itself.
I am only pointing out a clear instance of social incompetence.
Given both the smaller context and the larger context in which it has been made, this statement seems to me to be slightly unusual. I'll give two reasons why it seems this way to me:
Reason #1: You pointed out that Dr. Fester's ((refutation of Sola Scriptura) or (demonstration that Sola Scriptura is self-refuting)) "does nothing to address 'X'", and I countered by pointing out that it was not meant to address 'X'. Yet there you go, responding to my counter-point by trumpeting 'X' yet again (and as if that which is not relevant to the OP can be made relevant to it by a repetitious blaring of a trumpet).
Reason #2: George LeSauvage pointed out -- oh, about 100 posts ago -- that "it has...been an absurdly common point among Catholics to grant the corruption of the Church of the day. Erasmus hardly ever shut up on the subject[.]"
Nonetheless, you saw fit to blow off not only him but what he had to say. Who knows why? Does it displease you that your idée fixe might be viewed by others as an absurdly common point? Are you fearful that if it is viewed by others as an absurdly common point your idée fixe might thereby be devalued? Who knows? I certainly don't.
You think that Luther had doctrinal quibble and then came to the conclusion that the Pope was Anti-Christ.
If I said that, then you shouldn't have any difficulty copying/pasting from the comment in which it was said by me.
I say the opposite.
This is to say that you're saying the opposite of something I never said.
Hello Edward Feser,
ReplyDeleteI know this question is off topic but I cannot e-mail this question to you.
How you answer the proximal/distal indeterminacy problem? I would also like to know how non-reductive physicalist could answer the proximal/distal indeterminacy problem?
-- Kevin
Sorry for the typos, I meant to ask how would you answer the proximal indeterminacy problem and I would especially like to know how might a non-reductive physicalist answer the same problem. I encountered the problem in the eliminitivism without truth II post.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
--Kevin
Glenn, Reason #1: You pointed out that Dr. Fester's ((refutation of Sola Scriptura) or (demonstration that Sola Scriptura is self-refuting)) "does nothing to address 'X'", and I countered by pointing out that it was not meant to address 'X'. Yet there you go, responding to my counter-point by trumpeting 'X' yet again (and as if that which is not relevant to the OP can be made relevant to it by a repetitious blaring of a trumpet).
ReplyDeleteWe are disagreeing about the nuances of X. In my view, Dr. Feser's posts are about the Jesuit critique against Sola scriptura. If the Jesuit critique is meant to provide a logical refutation of the Protestant doctrine of Sola scriptura - and nothing else -, it succeeds. However, from the Protestant perspective, there's something else far more important. The disagreement between Catholicism and Protestantism is fundamentally a moral issue, but the Jesuit critique never took this into account, not historically, and not today either.
Glenn, Reason #2: [...] Does it displease you that your idée fixe might be viewed by others as an absurdly common point? Are you fearful that if it is viewed by others as an absurdly common point your idée fixe might thereby be devalued? Who knows? I certainly don't.
If my idée fixe is an absurdly common point recognised by everyone, then I should have been met with immediate understanding as soon as I chimed in. The opposite is the case. The statement "The Pope is Anti-Christ" is absurdly simple, so it's kind of curious why the Jesuit critique doesn't address it directly. I can conclude that the Jesuit critique is incapable of discussing moral issues...
@ E. Seigner
ReplyDeleteIf the Jesuit critique is meant to provide a logical refutation of the Protestant doctrine of Sola scriptura - and nothing else -, it succeeds. However, from the Protestant perspective, there's something else far more important. The disagreement between Catholicism and Protestantism is fundamentally a moral issue, but the Jesuit critique never took this into account, not historically, and not today either.
I guess I don't really understand your insistence. Say the moral question is more important from the Protestant perspective. It doesn't follow that "the disagreement between Catholicism and Protestantism is fundamentally a moral issue" in the sense that it can only be resolved in principle by answering the moral question. If the Protestant position on sola scriptura really is self-refuting, then who cares if their response is just to insist the moral question again? Who cares why, historically, they came to hold sola scriptura? The reason the Jesuit critique wouldn't take that component into account would simply be that it doesn't need to.
Then it also remains an open question whether the doctrinal component is negligent. Glenn has quoted Luther in his debate with Erasmus, insisting that it was the doctrinal and not the moral question that was central.
E.Seigner,
ReplyDeletePrior to what George LeSauvage had to say, one Anonymous had this to say (more than 100 posts ago):
"It is fair to say that, on all sides, events outpaced the capacity to understand them, and nearly everyone involved made some ghastly misstep."
No one has disagreed with this comment from Anonymous, and at least one of the persons with whom you have been arguing had thanked him for having made it.
Have a good day, sir.
Greg, Say the moral question is more important from the Protestant perspective. It doesn't follow that "the disagreement between Catholicism and Protestantism is fundamentally a moral issue" in the sense that it can only be resolved in principle by answering the moral question.
ReplyDeleteBut it follows straightforwardly that the disagreement cannot be resolved by ignoring the real issue. And in real life, we have seen that the disagreement has not been resolved, no matter how many times you demonstrate that Sola scriptura is self-refuting.
If you want to resolve the disagreement, you don't attack the easy target, i.e. some logical flaw which never was the main issue. As for me, I can clearly see that the parties involved don't care about reconciliation. That's just a fact that the world must live with.
@ E. Seigner
ReplyDeleteBut it follows straightforwardly that the disagreement cannot be resolved by ignoring the real issue.
Well, unless by real issue you mean "the issue which must be addressed in order that the disagreement be resolved," then, no, I disagree. The historical cause is not relevant if - whatever it is - it led Protestants to form churches with a self-refuting doctrine. For if the Protestant churches hold a self-refuting doctrine, then they are ruled out. As has been pointed out, that's all the argument cares to show, and it's not missing any component if it sets aside historical analysis.
IOW, who cares if the coherency of sola scriptura was historically the main issue? If you're trying to decide between A and B, and you believe B to be self-refuting, that's terribly useful information. It doesn't matter if it was an "easy target," if showing the self-refutation was pretty straightforward. It also doesn't matter if lots of people tenaciously hold B for some other reason.
It's not as though pressing the moral question would resolve the disagreement either. It didn't do so during the Protestant Reformation; it's not as though there was uniform conversion in the Holy Roman Empire to Protestantism. And it's not as though there aren't Catholic historians who write about the Reformation. They just aren't writing in this thread because, again, they don't need to.
E.Seigner:
ReplyDeleteAnd in real life, we have seen that the disagreement has not been resolved, no matter how many times you demonstrate that Sola scriptura is self-refuting.
Disagreement over what? That some Popes and Church officials have behaved immorally? Who did you think was disagreeing about that? And why do you think a post specifically about the shortcomings of sola scriptura should turn aside to address it?
As for me, I can clearly see that the parties involved don't care about reconciliation. That's just a fact that the world must live with.
On the contrary, the Church cares a great deal about reconciliation. She would regard it as an occasion for great joy if the numerous Protestant sects, or indeed any of them, were suddenly to recognize the authority of the papacy and enter into full communion with Rome.
But if, as you say, "Protestants all agree that the Catholic Church cannot be right - because the Pope is evil," and this is the "actual issue that lies at the very heart of Protestantism," then why would Protestants be interested in "reconciliation" with institutionalized evil?
Are you somehow suggesting that the Church will come to agree with that claim, or that it even could agree with that claim without ceasing to be the Church?
For even an individual Catholic, never mind the Church, even to entertain such a proposition might be many things, but "reconciliation" is not one of them. That you can't clearly see this is, I suppose, a fact that the world must live with.
Guys, I think you're feeding a troll.
ReplyDeleteGlenn, you may be interested in the article that I mentioned to Daniel. Google this-- Donald Fairbairn, Patristic Soteriology: Three trajectories. Talking about theosis, Fairbairn usefully distinguishes a trajectory through SS Irenaeus, Athanasius, Cyril from the better known trajectory from Origen through SS Gregory, Maximus, Gregory.
A Protestant prayer for those of you starting RCIA: may your journey be spiritually fruitful, and may your unsuspecting teachers be well-prepared ;-)
When should I look for the next Feser post?
Guys, I think you're feeding a troll.
ReplyDeleteI've reluctantly begun to suspect so.
A Protestant prayer for those of you starting RCIA: may your journey be spiritually fruitful, and may your unsuspecting teachers be well-prepared ;-)
Heh. Thank you.
@ Scott
ReplyDeleteBut if, as you say, "Protestants all agree that the Catholic Church cannot be right - because the Pope is evil," and this is the "actual issue that lies at the very heart of Protestantism," then why would Protestants be interested in "reconciliation" with institutionalized evil?
The Protestants might avail themselves of this argument: If Catholicism was true, then Peter was pope. But Peter denied Christ three times, so Peter was evil. And if Catholicism is true, then there are no evil popes. So Catholicism is false.
@ Anonymous
When should I look for the next Feser post?
There's no schedule, but he posts roughly weekly.
@Greg
ReplyDeleteFirst, it is nuts to try to attribute anti-Catholic sentiment to all the Protestant sects. Some may be more suspicious of Catholics than others but one of the natural consequences of diverse ecclesiastical authority is that there isn't one uniform policy regarding Catholicism.
But Peter denied Christ three times, so Peter was evil.
If you are going to go in that direction why not go to to Matthew 16:23? It is a little more authoritative and emphatic, and also a strong indicator of fallibility. What I wonder though is if Catholics believe Peter was already the pope at that point or if the mantle came later when the Apostles were imbued with the Holy Spirit?
I have only skimmed through the comments on this post, and so apologize if this point has already been made, but I am unsure what authority the Reformers could legitimately appeal to if not to Scripture under their own interpretation.
Step2,
DeleteWe Catholic Christians basically believe that Christ gave a share of His authority to the Apostles and their Successors corporately, that is, it is excersied as a whole. However, we also believe that although Peter and his sucessors also share in the corporate authority of God with the rest of the Apostles and their Successors, we also believe that Peter and his Successors were granted His authority individually.
So basically, whatever powers the Holy Spirit gives to the Apostles as a group (including Peter), he also gave to Peter as an individual, which is why Christ specifically changes Simon's name to identify him with the Rock, the foundation of the Church.
Christi pax.
Sorry, that Peter argument was facetious.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Greg. I hope Feser posts again soon...
ReplyDeleteFor the record, pre-Reformation medieval apocalyptic (cf Savonarola, Joachim di Fiore) did often feature popes, both as the Anti-Christ of the Book of Revelations and as the Angel Pope who, with the angelic hosts, was going to punish the corrupt, vanquish the Turks, rule in Jerusalem, and usher in the Millennium. (The Avignon schism ended too soon for the ultimate comic book series featuring both...) And lingering echoes of that tradition in the C16 popular imagination aided Protestant invective. But all politics is local, and those echoes sounded different in the rhetoric of German pamphlet wars, the bizarre Anabaptist stronghold of Muenster, the aftermath of the St Bartholomew's Day massacre in Paris, the slaughter of Waldensians in the Piedmont, or sober debate in Oxford about the contemporary meaning of Revelations. A core principle is not so dependent on circumstances.
Anti-papal invective that I have run across has been strongest where Protestants, being the victims of what we now regard as persecution, turned to scripture for consolation, and there found it bound up with Christ's final victory at Armageddon. This implicitly casts their oppressor in the role of the Antichrist at the end of days. One can hear the identical rhetorical trope in the anti-papalism of Traditionalist Orthodox (eg I.M. Esphigmenou on Athos) who honor as martyrs Greek monks burned alive by Crusaders for not saying mass in Latin.
Of course, the 'bad guys' in these events saw themselves as doing a grim sacred duty, much as the Puritans did when they hanged eight Quakers in C17 Boston. It seems unlikely that many sane people in today's world, Protestant or Orthodox, seek consolation amid persecution from the thought that Francis is the Anti-Christ soon to be overthrown. Some may hope that he is a sort of Angel Pope come to fix everything, but that is another matter.
Anonymous,
DeleteWho can say that John Paul the Great is the Anti-Christ.
Furthermore, there are Evangelists now who are arguing that the Pope of Rome has an honorary role as "official spokemen for Christians," something more like the contemporary Orthodox position. They are Protestants no longer Protesting ;-)
Christi pax.
I am curious about mathematics and logic: at first glance, they would seem to be just what Hume is thinking of in terms of "relations of ideas"...
ReplyDeleteRandomly thinking of Gene's question, which I was also interested in...
I think one problem with the 'Conceptual analysis' or 'relation of ideas' theory of mathematics is that it makes mathematics no more rational than entirely made up stuff.
Presumably a Relation of Ideas theorist would tell me that '2+2=4', say, is merely a Relation of Ideas with no necessary bearing on anything. The trouble seems to be that this makes '2+2=4' no more rational than, say, 'The Loch Ness Monster is purple'. Isn't that, too, merely a 'relation of ideas' in just the same way?
Mathematics becomes no more rational than Cryptozoology under the ROI analysis. So why do scientists bother to use mathematics in their calculations? They might as well factor the Loch Ness Monster or, dare I say, Russell's Teapot into their theories for all the good it would do.
...All of which suggests, of course, that there is something wrong with the Relation of Ideas analysis.
Granted this is only my first stab at tackling this and I'd be interested in what others have to say.
P.S.: Another problem might be that under the ROI analysis, the Relation of Ideas theory becomes itself a mere relation of ideas.
ReplyDelete(Epistemology ends up self-defeating so often that it should be the first thing that gets checked.)
ReplyDeleteSo, Sola Scriptura is rubbish, but it's our rubbish!
I still can't get over the statue of Ulrich Zwingli in front of the Wasserkirche Church in Zurich.
Someone who made a career on removing the statues of the Saints gets a statue himself...
Not dissimilar to someone who made a military career on defending a revolution against the king, only to become the emperor himself.
I think I found who the first progressives were.
@ E. Seigner,
ReplyDeleteThe actual version of indulgences was as practised by Johann Tetzel. Luther's debaters saw no problem with that. The wider population of Germany was in uproar because Germans were made to finance the Pope's new cathedral via sales of indulgences. Luther's debaters saw no problem with that. Luther's debaters saw only doctrinal problems with Luther, not moral problems with themselves.
This is revisionist nonsense.
And pray tell what is more scandalous: the pope turning a blind eye to a scandalous abuse of indulgences in order to finance the construction and completion of a Church erected to the glorification of God, or people who find the Church financing the erection of a Church to the glory of God scandalous?
Now charity can be either primarily spiritual works (such as setting aside time to pray for someone) or corporeal (such as almsgiving, providing food, shelter, comfort, clothing, assistance with physical chores or burdens of labour, etc.). Such works are redemptive and win divine favour when done for the right reasons or at least sufficient reasons (e.g. out of love of God and neighbor or more imperfectly out of fear of hellfire or divine punishment/disfavour). The sale of indulgences allowed people to give some corporeal work (almsgiving) to the work of the Church which is meritorious (and why Luther new theology of sola fidei could not stand it). It also implied and rested on contrition or guilt for sin and a distinction between eternal and temporal punishments due to sin/iniquity (something else Luther could not personally tolerate as these again implied guilt and the need for penitence and contrition). To be sure, in a certain sense almsgiving is the weakest substitute for charitable works though, of course, everyone can see that good money can be put to very good use and help provide sustenance and maintenance for the Church and the poor and the helpless even outside the Church. It can also be used to build new Churches or repair old ones.
Now to be scandalized at brazen abuse of the indulgence system is legitimate to a point; however, such people likewise can and do cause scandal themselves when they imply that charitable works or providing to maintain the corporeal needs of the Church and facilitate her mission is itself somehow an abuse or scandalous or even displeasing to God. Of course it is not. Nor does it matter if those collecting the goods abuse or otherwise use those goods badly or poorly, e.g. inefficiently - this does not take away from the merit of the one who gives or cause some kind of defect their original intention.
My apologies! The first paragraph above was intended to be in italics to show that I was quoting E. Seigner. The part beginning "This is revisionist..." is the beginning to my response to what E. Seigner wrote (and is included as the first paragraph).
ReplyDeleteSorry for any confusion.
Yes, Daniel. 'Working' popes who write smart, more or less scriptural encyclicals, stand firm on moral questions, and evangelize at mass rallies do not look too bad through an evangelical lens.
ReplyDeleteI should have said this a few hundred comments ago-- the consequential divide is not between sola scriptura and the papacy, but between those who do not recognize development and those who do. On the side of the divide unaware of history, any indeterminacy in either scripture or pope is a threat to a crystalline Church in the remote past that is always in danger of falling away from its original perfection; that is what Puritans following the 'regulative principle of worship' (worship using only the text of the Bible) and Feyerabend's Jesuits have in common. On the historically aware side of the divide, the bounded indeterminacy of both scriptural interpretation and the papal magisterium is not a bug in either but a feature in both-- they enable the Church to remain the same through all the adaptations necessary to its maturation, survival and spread. (As the Orthodox point out, our penchant for pitting scripture and magisterium against each other says less about either than about the West itself.) Just so, the crazy arguments have either been on the unaware side of that fence or across it.
Timocrates, This is revisionist nonsense.
ReplyDeleteRevisionist about what? Certainly not about history. Luckily you make it immediately clear that you are indeed talking about something else than history.
Timocrates, And pray tell what is more scandalous: the pope turning a blind eye to a scandalous abuse of indulgences in order to finance the construction and completion of a Church erected to the glorification of God, or people who find the Church financing the erection of a Church to the glory of God scandalous?
So, you are concerned with "scandalous". My concern was only to make it clear what Luther (and, by extension, Protestants in general) found scandalous, as can be ascertained from historical facts. I have no personal opinion on which side is more scandalous.
But your personal opinion has been duly noted. Thanks for sharing.
Yes, perceptive Reader, I anticipate your objection: are not rants also crazy if they overpersonalize everything, as though military alliances, the emergence of finance, civil legislation, the rights of freemen in cities, etc all shifted because Luther was stupid, proud or spiteful, or because the pope, his nuncio, or Tetzel were such s*ns of b*tches. But since we cannot find them to be aware of the development of doctrine, I think we must agree that they belong together-- deserve each other-- on the unaware side of the fence.
ReplyDeleteJust for the record, the last paragraph in my comment on August 3, 2015 at 2:52 PM gives an incorrect (and heretical) description of transubstantiation. For readers keen on historical Scholastic theology, it was first proposed by James of Metz (philosophically active in the first decade of the XIV century) and Durandus of St. Pourcain (c. 1275 – 1332), both of them Dominicans and "critical-Thomists", and was explicitely condemned by Trent session 13 canon 2, by the two occurences of "whole" when defining transubstantiation as "that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-".
ReplyDeleteFor further information:
http://classicaltheism.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=1918#p1918