Friday, October 24, 2014

Nudge nudge, wink wink


Suppose you go out on a blind date and a friend asks you how it went.  You pause and then answer flatly, with a slight smirk: “Well, I liked the restaurant.”  There is nothing in the literal meaning of the sentence you’ve uttered, considered all by itself, that states or implies anything negative about the person you went out with, or indeed anything at all about the person.  Still, given the context, you’ve said something insulting.  You’ve “sent the message” that you liked the restaurant but not the person.  Or suppose you show someone a painting and when asked what he thinks, he responds: “I like the frame.”  The sentence by itself doesn’t imply that the painting is bad, but the overall speech act certainly conveys that message all the same.  Each of these is an example of what H. P. Grice famously called an implicature, and they illustrate how what a speaker says in a communicative act ought not to be confused with what his words mean.  Obviously there is a relationship between the two, but they are not always identical.

Implicatures can be used to mislead someone without lying to him (and as I have argued in previous posts, such mental reservations can sometimes be morally justifiable).  But as the example just given indicates, they can also be used to “say something without saying it.”  And sometimes they can do double duty.  Suppose a second friend is also present when the first one asks you how the date went, but that this second friend knows the person you went on the date with and you don’t want him to know what you really think.  Suppose also, though, that he is a bit naïve.  If you say “I liked the restaurant,” this time with a little enthusiasm and without the pause or smirk, the first friend might still “get the message” that you didn’t like the person, while the second friend might think you had a good time.

Implicature, sexual morality, and politics

In his 1984 essay “Why Homosexuality is Abnormal,” Michael Levin applies Grice’s notion of implicature to an analysis of the decriminalization of homosexual acts, and other liberal policies vis-à-vis homosexuality.  (The essay originally appeared in The Monist and has been reprinted in several anthologies, such as the third edition of Alan Soble’s The Philosophy of Sex.)  As you can guess from the title, Levin holds that such acts are bad (on sociobiological rather than theological or natural law grounds, as it happens).  But it is worth emphasizing that his application of Grice does not stand or fall with whether or not you agree with him about that.  Levin’s claim is that liberal policies cannot, given our cultural circumstances, be neutral concerning homosexuality.  They will inevitably “send a message” of approval rather than mere neutrality or indifference.  The essay is thirty years old, and it goes without saying that in the age of “same-sex marriage” things have gone considerably beyond mere decriminalization (which has been a dead issue legally since Lawrence v. Texas).  But his remarks are if anything only more plausible as an analysis of the effects of policies currently being pushed.  Here is what he says:

[L]egislation “legalizing homosexuality” cannot be neutral because passing it would have an inexpungeable speech-act dimension.  Society cannot grant unaccustomed rights and privileges to homosexuals while remaining neutral about the value of homosexuality.  Working from the assumption that society rests on the family and its consequences, the Judaeo-Christian tradition has deemed homosexuality a sin and withheld many privileges from homosexuals.  Whether or not such denial was right, for our society to grant these privileges to homosexuals now would amount to declaring that it has rethought the matter and decided that homosexuality is not as bad as it had previously supposed…  Someone who suddenly accepts a policy he has previously opposed is open to the… interpretation [that] he has come to think better of the policy.  And if he embraces the policy while knowing that this interpretation will be put on his behavior, and if he knows that others know that he knows they will so interpret it, he is acquiescing in this interpretation.  He can be held to have intended, meant, this interpretation.  A society that grants privileges to homosexuals while recognizing that, in the light of generally known history, this act can be interpreted as a positive re-evaluation of homosexuality, is signalling that it now thinks homosexuality is all right… What homosexual rights activists really want [from anti-discrimination laws] is not [merely] access to jobs but legitimation of their homosexuality.  Since this is known, giving them what they want will be seen as conceding their claim to legitimacy.  And since legislators know their actions will support this interpretation, and know that their constituencies know they know this, the Gricean effect or symbolic meaning of passing anti-discrimination ordinances is to declare homosexuality legitimate…

Legislation permitting frisbees in the park does not imply approval of frisbees for the simple reason that frisbees are new; there is no tradition of banning them from parks. The legislature's action in permitting frisbees is not interpretable, known to be interpretable, and so on, as the reversal of long-standing disapproval.  It is because these Gricean conditions are met in the case of abortion that legislation -- or rather judicial fiat-- permitting abortions and mandating their public funding are widely interpreted as tacit approval.  Up to now, society has deemed homosexuality so harmful that restricting it outweighs putative homosexual rights.  If society reverses itself, it will in effect be deciding that homosexuality is not as bad as it once thought.  (pp. 119-20 of Soble)

Whether or not this was a plausible bit of Gricean analysis in 1984, it is surely plausible now.  “Same-sex marriage” and antidiscrimination laws are now routinely defended, not on grounds of neutrality, but on the basis of the decidedly non-neutral judgment that moral (or any other) disapproval of homosexuality can only possibly stem from bigotry, ignorance, religious fanaticism, or plain mean-spiritedness.  As Justice Scalia famously complained, opponents of “same-sex marriage” are now treated as if they were the “enemies of the human race,” and their defeat is widely regarded both as a moral imperative and the inevitable next stage in the progress of civilization.  Meanwhile, whether out of fear, lack of conviction, or both, the most prominent conservatives don’t even bother to address the fundamental moral question anymore, but feebly retreat into considerations of secondary importance, such as federalism or judicial activism.  And even then, everything they say is hedged with panicky assurances of their tolerance and compassion.  The moralistic fervor is now all on the liberal side, and as any serious conservative should know, you cannot beat moralism with quibbles about procedure.

So, the “dominant narrative” on the pro-“same-sex marriage” side is: “We have the moral high ground, history is on our side, and conservatives’ retreat from the moral field, desperate resort to secondary issues, and semi-apologetic, defensive presentation show that deep down they know it’s true.”  Now, judges, lawmakers, and political candidates know that this is the “dominant narrative,” and they know that “same-sex marriage” advocates and society at large know that they know it.  They know also that endorsement of “same-sex marriage,” or even just surrender to it where it is imposed, will be widely interpreted as an acknowledgement that that narrative is correct.  So, under these circumstances, endorsement or surrender will inevitably “send the message” that that narrative is correct, and thus that disapproval of homosexuality has no rational basis, and thus that no one should disapprove of homosexuality.  Of course, a sentence like “’Same-sex marriage’ should be legalized,” considered in isolation, doesn’t entail all that, but that is irrelevant.  The point is that that is nevertheless the Gricean implicature of such an endorsement or surrender, given circumstances now and for the foreseeable future. 

Now as Grice points out, an implicature can be “cancelled.”  Suppose that after saying “I liked the restaurant” you added, with a smile: “And I really liked [her, him]!” Whereas the first utterance by itself gave the impression that you did not like the person you were out with, that message would be cancelled by this addition.  The implicature associated under current circumstances with an endorsement or surrender on “same-sex marriage” could also be cancelled -- for instance, if a public official who endorsed or surrendered to it explicitly repudiated the “dominant narrative.”  For example, suppose a candidate for political office in a state in which “same-sex marriage” was imposed by the judiciary declined to support a challenge to it either in the courts or the legislature, and explained his position by saying: “I don’t think there’s any way to reverse ‘same-sex marriage’ in this state given public opinion and the makeup of the appeals courts.  But I am utterly opposed to it and would reverse it in a second if I thought that was possible.”  Whatever the merits of this position, it would cancel the implicature that the surrender to “same-sex marriage” would otherwise have.  However, if a politician repeatedly declined to say or do anything that would cancel the implicature, the implicature would if anything only be reinforced.  It will also be reinforced if the only public remarks the politician ever makes about homosexuality and related matters are positive – calls for tolerance and compassion, condemnations of workplace discrimination, etc.

Note that such a politician would not actually have to believe the “dominant narrative” in order for the implicature to be reinforced.  He may decline to cancel the implicature out of naivete, cynical calculation, or cowardice rather than out of conviction.  But he will nevertheless have “sent the message” that the “dominant narrative“ is correct, even if he thinks it is not correct.  And it would be silly for him to claim otherwise by saying (in private): “All I’ve done is to decline trying to roll back ‘same-sex marriage’ and endorsed being civil to fellow citizens who happen to be homosexual.  There is nothing in that by itself that entails that I think homosexual acts are morally justifiable or that I agree that critics of ‘same-sex marriage’ really are bigots!”  That is true, but irrelevant.  The meaning of the sentences he’s uttered, considered in isolation, might not entail all that, but that is simply not the only thing that determines an implicature. 

Implicature, sexual morality, and Catholicism

Now, what goes for politicians goes for churchmen.  It is part of the “dominant narrative” that the opposition of the Catholic Church and other Christian bodies to homosexual acts is, like  such opposition more generally, rooted in ignorance and bigotry, without rational foundation, and ought to be given up.  Bishops and other churchmen know that this is the “dominant narrative,” and they know that homosexual rights activists and society at large know that they know it.  Hence when they make statements that accentuate the positive vis-à-vis homosexuality (emphasizing inclusiveness, condemning discrimination, etc.) and/or imply that the Church has historically been too harsh or put too much emphasis on the issue -- while at the same time saying little or nothing clearly to reaffirm the traditional condemnation of homosexual acts -- the implicature, the message that is sent, is that there is truth in the “dominant narrative.” 

Here as in other cases, it is irrelevant that the specific sentences that are uttered considered by themselves do not strictly entail any concession to the “dominant narrative.”  There needn’t be such an entailment for an implicature.  Nor does it matter that the churchmen in question do not actually agree with the “dominant narrative.”  If you say “I like the frame” or “I liked the restaurant” in the contexts described above, you have in fact said something insulting, whether or not that was your intention and despite the fact that the literal meaning of the words does not by itself strictly entail an insult.  And if a churchman comments on issues concerning homosexuality with nothing but happy talk, he has in fact “sent the message” that there is truth in the “dominant narrative,” even if that is not his intention and despite the fact that the literal meaning of his words might not by itself strictly entail that there is truth in it.  The implicature is only reinforced by the fact that the average listener entirely lacks any theological training and thus cannot be expected to draw fine distinctions, to assess the doctrinal weight of off-the-cuff remarks made in interviews, etc.  Since churchmen know (or should know) how their misleading words are bound to be taken by the average listener, and since the average listener knows that these churchmen know (or should know) this -- and yet the churchmen say these things anyway -- the implicature is further cemented.

Hence while it is true that secular news outlets routinely read too much into such statements and spin them to their own purposes, they are by no means entirely to blame.  They have been given ammunition.  Some conservative Catholic commentators have tied themselves in knots trying to put a positive face on these sorts of remarks, usually via a pedantic emphasis on what is strictly entailed by the literal meaning of a certain remark considered in isolation, while completely ignoring the glaring implicatures.  At best this reflects an astounding naiveté about how language works; at worst it is itself a kind of intellectually dishonest spin-doctoring.  And it does real damage by giving the false impression that to be a Catholic you have to become a shill and pretend not to see the obvious. 

Judging from the Extraordinary Synod on the Family which ended last week, the messages churchmen send via such implicatures may not always be unintentional.  A key topic of debate in the lead-up to the Synod and at the Synod itself was Cardinal Walter Kasper’s proposal that divorced and “remarried” Catholics could be admitted to Holy Communion.  Now, the teaching of the Church is that a validly married person cannot divorce and remarry someone else while his spouse is still living.  Such a “remarriage” is adulterous and thus mortally sinful.  The Church also teaches that to go to Communion while one is in a state of mortal sin is itself mortally sinful.  Hence, to suggest that such “remarried” Catholics might be able to go to Communion is to implicate or “send the message” that such “remarriages” are not mortally sinful after all and that the Church can and should change her teaching on that subject. 

Cardinal Kasper denies that he favors such a change, but again, an implicature can exist even when one does not intend it.  Furthermore, to “cancel” the implicature in this case would require far more than Cardinal Kasper issuing such a denial in a journal article, interview, or the like, because most Catholics have never heard of Cardinal Kasper and will know nothing about such denials.  To cancel the implicature would require that the Church loudly and clearly reaffirm that it is mortally sinful to divorce and “remarry” and that no one in a state of mortal sin should take Communion.  The trouble, though, is that loudly and clearly to say this would offend Catholics who have “remarried,” and the whole point of Kasper’s proposal is to make such people feel “welcome.”  Doing what is required to cancel the implicature would thus make Kasper’s proposed policy pointless.  So, there simply is no plausible way to implement such a policy without “sending the message” that the Church can and should change her teaching.

Whatever Cardinal Kasper intends, though, Cardinal George Pell has indicated that some of the churchmen who favor Kasper’s policy do intend the implicature.  As Cardinal Pell has said:

Communion for the divorced and remarried is for some -- very few, certainly not the majority of the synod fathers -- it's only the tip of the iceberg, it's a stalking horse. They want wider changes, recognition of civil unions, recognition of homosexual unions.  The church cannot go in that direction.  It would be a capitulation from the beauties and strengths of the Catholic tradition, where people sacrificed themselves for hundreds, and thousands of years to do this.

That this is the intention seems clear enough from a now-notorious set of passages from the first draft of the Synod report, which included the following lines:

Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community: are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities? … Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?...

Without denying the moral problems connected to homosexual unions it has to be noted that there are cases in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners.

End quote.  The tone and indeed the content of this passage (“accepting and valuing their sexual orientation,” “precious support in the life of the partners”) are so radically different from what the Church has said historically -- indeed, it would have been unthinkable as recently as two years ago that such words could ever appear in a Vatican document -- that the bland references elsewhere in the document to the Church’s teaching on homosexuality cannot cancel the implicature that there is some truth in the liberal “dominant narrative” vis-à-vis homosexuality.  And those who would use Cardinal Kasper’s proposal as a “stalking horse” (as Cardinal Pell put it) surely intend their implicatures to do double duty.  When, in the example I gave above, you say “I liked the restaurant,” your more sophisticated friend will know that you did not like the person you went on the blind date with, while your less sophisticated friend might think you did like the person.  Similarly, when liberal churchmen speak of “accepting and valuing [the homosexual] orientation without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony,” gullible listeners will be reassured that no substantive change is being proposed, while more sophisticated listeners will “get” the real message.

Now, Cardinal Pell, Cardinal Raymond Burke, the African bishops, and others vigorously opposed this passage, which was ultimately rejected by the Synod as a whole.  But the fact that it got as far as it did in the first place itself “sends the message” that the Church might, if not now then in future, be open to the possibility of dramatic change vis-à-vis matters of sexual morality.   Given how far things have gone, effectively cancelling this implicature would require a vigorous reaffirmation both of the content and the permanence of Catholic teaching on sexual morality from Pope Francis himself.  Cardinal Burke has expressed the view that such a papal reaffirmation is “long overdue,” and another bishop has been even more frank about the damage he thinks the Synod has caused.  But such a reaffirmation seems unlikely given that it would conflict with the Pope’s aim of putting less emphasis on these matters and trying to find ways to attract those who disagree with the Church’s teaching about them.

Nudge nudge, wink wink, or Yes Yes, No No?

How have things gotten to this point?  There are in my view two main factors.  The first is what I have identified elsewhere as the chief cause of the collapse of Catholic apologetics, dogmatic and moral theology, and catechesis: the abandonment of Scholasticism.  Thomists and other Scholastic theologians and philosophers, and the churchmen of earlier generations who were given a Scholastic intellectual formation, emphasized precision in thought, precision in language, precision in argumentation, precision in doctrinal and public statements, and extreme caution about novel theses and formulations which might undermine the credibility of the Church’s claim to preserve and apply doctrine, and not manufacture or mutate it.  Say what you will about the (purported) limitations of Scholastic theology and philosophy, there was, in the days when Scholasticism held sway, never any doubt about exactly what a statement from a bishop or from the Vatican meant and about exactly how it squared with Catholic tradition. 

The tendency among some churchmen toward imprecision, and the appearance of a rupture with past teaching, is by no means limited to matters of sexual morality.  On capital punishment, ecumenism, interreligious dialogue, and other issues, even conservative Catholic churchmen have been fudging things for decades, speaking in ambiguous terms or in platitudes that seem to imply that the traditional teaching of the Church is wrong, and giving woolly arguments or no arguments at all instead of explaining how the new statements can be reconciled with past teaching.

For example, for two millennia the Church very heavily emphasized the urgency of conversion to the Catholic Faith as necessary for salvation.  Yet even many conservative churchmen today emphasize “dialogue” over conversion, condemn proselytizing, etc.  How can these attitudes be reconciled?  The question is generally simply ignored.  Modern churchmen often speak as if capital punishment were incompatible with human dignity and as if any Catholic must oppose it.  Yet Pope Innocent III, when reconciling the pacifist Waldensian heretics with the Church, made acceptance of the legitimacy of capital punishment a matter of basic orthodoxy; the Fathers and Doctors of the Church unanimously affirmed its legitimacy even when they were inclined toward leniency, and such unanimity has always been regarded within Catholicism as a mark of infallible teaching; Genesis 9:6 sanctions capital punishment precisely in the name of human dignity; and so on.  How can these attitudes be reconciled?  Again, the problem is generally ignored.  And so on for other issues.  Typically the novel statements are phrased in such a way that they can be given an interpretation that is not strictly incompatible with past teaching.  However, the implicature -- again, even if unintentional -- is that past teaching was mistaken. 

What is common to these examples is that they all tend to implicate a concession to liberalism.  And that brings me to what I think is the second factor behind the tendency of modern churchmen to speak in ways that seem to imply a rupture with the past: the utter hegemony of liberalism in the modern Western world, indeed in much of the modern world full stop.  Now, when I say “liberalism” I don’t mean merely the sort of thing that characterizes the modern Democratic Party.  I mean that broad tradition that begins with thinkers like Hobbes and Locke and whose basic assumptions are taken for granted by moral and political thinkers of almost every stripe today.  What liberals of all varieties -- from Hobbes and Locke to Kant to Rawls and Nozick -- share in common, whatever their significant differences, is an emphasis on the sovereignty of the will of the individual.  For liberalism, no demand on any individual is legitimate to which he does not in some sense consent.  The tendency is therefore to regard any such imposition as an affront to his dignity.  The liberty that the liberal wants to further is freedom from fetters on the individual’s will, whether those fetters are political, social, moral, religious, or cultural.  The individual will is sovereign, its dignity supreme.

Liberalism in this broad sense is the dominant way of thinking and feeling in modern times.  It is, essentially, the compulsory ethos, indeed the religion, of modern times.  It absolutely permeates contemporary political, social, moral, religious, and cultural life.  This is why the arguments even of political conservatives and Christians reputed for orthodoxy are constantly couched in the language of freedom, rights, the dignity of the individual, etc.  The pressure to conform one’s thinking and sensibility to basic liberal assumptions is nearly overwhelming.  Hence any appeal to freedom is considered all by itself a powerful argument, and any objection to a policy or view on the grounds that it conflicts with freedom is considered a powerful objection which it is imperative to answer.  Scratch many a modern conservative or Christian and you’ll find a liberal, in this broad sense of the word “liberal,” underneath. 

Liberalism is the offspring of Ockham’s voluntarism, the prioritizing of the will over the intellect.  Press voluntarism as far as it will go and you are bound to conclude that what the will chooses is more important that what the intellect knows.  Objective truth itself is bound to come to seem an oppressive imposition on the will.  For Aquinas, of course, this has things precisely backwards.  The will is subordinate to the intellect, and has as its final cause the pursuit of the objective truth that the intellect grasps.  And if the objective truth of the matter is that you deserve a punishment of death, or ought to convert to Catholicism, or ought to restrain your sexual impulses, then it is just tough luck for the will if what it wants is something else.  (I speak loosely, of course.  It is not really “tough luck” for the will; such submission is what is truly good for the will.) 

Now as every Thomist knows, there is some truth to be found in more or less any erroneous system of thought.  Hence there is, naturally, some truth in liberalism.  The free exercise of the will really is a good thing.  But it is a good that is subordinate to the higher end for which it exists, namely the pursuit of what is really true and good.  Furthermore, given the hegemony of liberalism in modern times and the consequent pressure to conform oneself to it, even those who do not see themselves as liberals are going to exaggerate the significance of whatever truth there is to be found in it.  Hence the tendency of modern churchmen relentlessly to emphasize the dignity of the individual and to pretend that an appeal to this dignity is somehow the master key to settling every moral and political controversy (when in fact what counts as a respect for human dignity is itself precisely what is at issue in disputes over sexual morality, abortion, capital punishment, etc. -- so that the appeal to human dignity by itself merely begs the question).

The tremendous pressure to conform to liberalism generates an eagerness to seek any way possible, rhetorically and substantively, to find common ground with it.  Now, punishment in general and capital punishment in particular all involve an obvious and unpleasant imposition on the will of the individual.  Hence the tendency of liberalism is to regard punishment, and capital punishment in particular, as an affront to the dignity of the individual.  Making an individual’s salvation contingent upon whether he accepts a certain religion is an even graver imposition on his will.  Hence the tendency of the liberal, if he is religious, is toward universalism.  Sexual desire is extremely powerful and the demands of sexual morality an especially irksome imposition on the will.  Hence the tendency of liberalism is to try as far as possible to eliminate or at least soften and minimize the importance of such demands.  And so forth. 

So, when churchmen find in Catholic tradition, alongside the persistent insistence on the legitimacy of (and in some cases need for) capital punishment, an inclination of some saints and theologians strongly to prefer leniency over resort to the punishment, the temptation is to take the more lenient tendency and run with it, while ignoring the other, balancing element in the tradition.  When they find in the tradition, alongside the doctrine that extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the idea that “invincible ignorance” can save those who are outside the visible structure of the Church, the temptation is strong to emphasize the latter and not worry too much about evangelization.  When they note that the Church has always taught forgiveness of sins and mercy toward sinners, the temptation is strong to talk a lot about that and not say too much about the actual sins themselves, especially if the sins are sexual.  And so forth.  Because the over-emphasized elements really are there in the tradition and the ignored elements are not explicitly denied, actual rupture with the past is avoided.  But because the resulting presentation of Catholic teaching is so one-sided, and one-sided in the direction of flattering liberalism, there is an appearance of a rupture with the past, an unintended implicature to the effect that liberal criticism of traditional Catholic teaching is correct.

This is not unprecedented in Church history.  The Arian heresy exerted enormous pressure on the Church.  It had political power, won the support of many bishops, and was difficult to combat because of the ambiguous language in which it was often formulated.  Even Pope Liberius, though he did not bind the Church to error, temporized.  The heresy took centuries to die out completely.  No doubt there were churchmen at the time keen to emphasize the “gifts and qualities” of Arians, to “accept and value” the depth and sincerity of their devotion to the Arian cause, and to affirm the “precious support” Arians provided one another. 

In light of what has happened at the Synod, some orthodox Catholics are inclined to channel Kevin Bacon in Animal House, while others are inclined to freak out.  Both tendencies are mistaken.  The truth is that things are pretty bad, and also that they are not that bad.  This kind of thing sometimes happens in the Church.  Liberalism will suffer the same fate as Arianism, but it may take a very long time for the Church entirely to flush it out of its system, and things may get a lot worse before they get better.  For the moment and no doubt for some time to come, too many churchmen will continue to respond to the liberal spirit of the age with a nudge and a wink and glad-handing bonhomie.  But in the end the Church will, as she always does, heed the words of her Master: Let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ (Matthew 5:37).

897 comments:

  1. @Santi

    No, Georgy Mancz said that "sui generis essentialism" is in this context is nominalism, "not evolution seen as generating sui 
    generis manifestations of unique essences". Evolution is about the history of essences receiving existence(s).
    Not what these are, strictly speaking.

    Again, I'm going to have to ask you to elucidate the categorical imperative  of Thomists (or anyone, for that matter) justifying homosexual behaviour.
    And "Santi wants them to" doesn't count. 

    Your use of the word "feel" is very telling, but essences, just as final causes, being in the class of raison d'être, are not felt, they are known. Half the time you beg the question: why should there be equality between essentially different things?.. On your account "human" is just a general term - so on what grounds do you appeal to "equality" and "democracy"?.. 
    Drop the pathetic rights talk if you're a nominalist. Again, ad hoc pronouncements do not count. 

    The "where" question is sort of funny. What's the atomic weight  of nominalism or the good of sodomy, Mr. Tafarella?.. 

    Essences are known via abstraction (and we abstract from sense data). Given that animals manifest immanent causality, and have 
    organs corresponding to powers, we can find out their teleology. If real, powers of a thing are directed towards certain outcomes, on hylomorphic analysis. Hearts pump blood. Eyes facilitate seeing. Intellects are directed towards intelligible reality. Sorry for being graphic, but.. Penises serve as means of transporting sperm to vaginas. Organisms manifest immanent causality. We're not machines. It's not accidental that arousal causes the male organ to assume a state optimal for doing just that. It's true of heterosexual and homosexual human males. Yes, genitals also are aimed at removing waste. But the sexual act is not. These powers are not realised simultaneously.

    People can focus on the effects of employing the sexual power - pleasure, forming bonds, etc. These are not bad. What is bad is 
    the fact that the sexual power, willfully employed, is being abused, not aimed at its final cause while exercised, diverted. 
    In other words, in this action the subjective purpose is in conflict with its objective purpose, so, analogously, there is no reason for it. Deliberately lying to a person, abusing communication, is immoral for that very reason.
    Yes, speech can be used to joke and thus amuse people. But deliberately saying a lie (as opposed to saying something funny) 
    to a person to amuse someone (oneself, other people) is immoral no matter how amusing it happens to be. 

    You actually are right, in a way: nominalism does suit those who would recognise no authority over their actions other than their 
    sheer will. It's no surprise it's connected to voluntarism. 

    This brings me to an important point. If I recall corrrectly, in some other combox you have claimed having read Dr. Feser's "TLS". Given your recent stated "discovery" and manifest lack of knowledge of relevant subjects, I'm now seriously doubting that, since this was covered in detail in that book. I do implore you to read it.
    Or at least the cited blogposts, where the relevant metaphysics are covered and issues resolved by a celibate gay Thomist. 
    Also, an article Dr. Feser once linked here: http://ncbcenter.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=searcharticlesresults,1,1;

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  2. Scott says a man with a wooden leg is still a man, and this is true only because we are big brain primates who can imagine ourselves as still being human with a wooden leg.

    We can also imagine ourselves fundamentally of the same species with Neanderthals if we want to.

    We can also imagine ourselves to be the same person as in our baby pictures, or the same person after suffering a stroke, though completely different in personality.

    We can also imagine ourselves as still human if science one day mixes our genes with those of hawks, and we sprout wings and tail feathers and fly like angels.

    But we can also imagine ourselves as being fundamentally different in fine-grained ways, as when Virginia Woolf famously wrote: "On or about December 1910 human character changed."

    She wrote this because there had been a transformation of relations between "masters and servants, husbands and wives, parents and children ... and when human relations change there is at the same time a change in religion, conduct, politics and literature."

    So it depends on how fine grained or broadly you want to chop things to draw generalizations and infer essences, and how much (or whether) you want to notice CONTEXT.

    But where are these essences? And how do you know they're where you locate them in the first place?

    Clearly, those who claim to know the essence of the usage of the penis and vagina, and the essence of marriage--and where these essences reside--need to demonstrate the claim. Otherwise, gay people are hurt without justficification. This cannot be just a power play, a will to power on the part of one group of people over another behind the veneer of an appeal to "essences."

    Essences may not even exist. We may be mistaking our definitions for essences. We may be appealing to what are in fact fake (manufactured) essences, not real essences. There are so many ways to infer essences wrong, and reason wrongly from them, hurting gay people in the process.

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  3. Clearly, those who claim to know the essence of the usage of the penis and vagina, and the essence of marriage--and where these essences reside--need to demonstrate the claim.

    An essence is that through which something has being as a particular kind of thing; so if we're taking votes, I would really, really prefer that people here not go around demonstrating that they know what penises and vaginas are and where they reside. This blog should not go wandering into NSFW territory.

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  4. Although it does give new meaning to the title of the post.

    ReplyDelete
  5. In 1400, Thomist theologians could point to the precariousness of human populations to justify their take on the essence of marriage.

    Which Thomists were that, pray tell?

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  6. Virginia Woolf's famous quote gets to something else crucial: the CONTEXT in which one speaks of essences. The essence of a thing is always contextual. No man is an island. When contexts change, what we point to as "essences" can change as well.

    In 1400, Thomist theologians could point to the precariousness of human populations to justify their take on the essence of marriage. Marriage needed to be seen as essentially focused on the rearing of children. Marriages might have nothing essential to do with love; they could be arranged by parents. The keys were consummation and children. Absent a man putting his penis into the vagina of a woman, no babies, no civilization. Obviously, God in 1400 (it could be argued) didn't want people putting the penis and vagina to frivolous purposes.

    But in 2014, that's no longer the case. Marriage can be seen as essentially a relation between couples who share love and a desire to build a life together. That's all marriage has to be, essentially, because "on or about December 1910 human character changed."

    And because we have big brains on the verge of artificial methods of reproduction, we can now see the human being as essentially possessing TWO reproductive organs. If we want to use one for pleasure, and our big brains for figuring out how to produce children by means other than intercourse (by artificial insemination or in the laboratory, for example), we can do that.

    There's nothing essential to our penis and vagina if our brains are big enough and smart enough to make their own tools for reproduction. Man is a tool using animal. (There's an essential definition for you.) And perhaps God gave us the brain powers She did in order to override biological essentialism and the evolved functions of our existing parts. Cultural and technological evolution can be much, much quicker than old-school evolution, so who's to say this isn't part of God's plan? If God makes things by evolution, who's to say God isn't ramping up the game in us? Cultural evolution can be FAST, and so essences really can change on or about December 1910. And perhaps this is simply too fast for medieval Thomism to adjust to. But that's not our fault, that's Thomism's fault for not thinking in a sufficiently nuanced way about essences, thereby attaching itself to fake essences, or out of date essences that are essential no longer.

    So just as we can have a wooden leg, we can have a substitute penis. How we use our legs and penises are not essential to who we are because we are tool making animals. We can make artificial legs and penises that can do the work of our legs and penises. We can use our feet (or wooden leg) for kinky sex if we want, and drive around in wheel chairs and cars all day, barely using our feet for things other than sex at all. We can pull babies out of stomachs instead of out of vaginas; we can make birth painless, bypassing the biblical curse on women in Genesis 3.

    So the argument over what's essential to a human with a big brain and embedded in very definite historical contexts is quite different from the argument over what a small brained tortoise is, and what its composite parts are for. The bigger the brain, the less force of any appeal to essentialism.

    And where is this essential realm located again? And how do you even know it's really located there?

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  7. It doesn't matter what time of the day it is. Santi is there, with as many paragraphs as the combox will fit.

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  8. Big-brained primate? What do you mean "we" paleface?

    You're not listening to me. I'm telling you what my essence is - just like a gay man might - and it's not that of a big-brained primate. You are just imagining that everyone is a big-brained primate.

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  9. David T:

    But what is the essence of a big-brained primate?

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  10. Ahh so we have moved from Brute Facts, probably the number one stupid idea in metaphysics, to Nominalism, the second most stupid idea in metaphysics. So, after scarifying our cassocked hides with a formidable critique of the PSR based on the modal status of Negative States-of-Affairs and maximal conjunctives he moves in for the kill with a truly ingenious variation on one of Keith Campbell's arguments for Trope Nominalism in Abstract Particulars. Or alternatively he just makes handwaving appeals to Evolution and Herd-Morality.

    @Greg,

    You mentioned promiscuity, polygamy, and overt sexual objectification earlier. I doubt that one could construct an argument that homosexual acts are good while those are bad.

    From the admittedly brief time I've spent considering the possibility of such arguments the immediate flaw seems to be that any such argument for homosexual love would equally apply to consensual incest which seems counter-intuitive at the very least.

    Of course when you say 'construct an argument' I am assuming you mean on broadly classical lines. I'm sure it could be done along the lines of Neo-Kantian, Existentialist or other ethical theories, though the question then becomes to what extent do these theories themselves work. Perhaps the best option someone could take would be a form of Ethical Intuitionism where Good and Love are held as objects of direct intuitive perception.

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  11. You can make a more interesting case for the essence of a small brained primate than for a big brained primate because a small brained primate has little or no imagination, and functions largely on instinct. Much like conservatives.

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  12. But what is the essence of a big-brained primate?

    Santi, if you actually took the trouble to learn what essentialism is before irresponsibly lecturing other people about it, you would know that what you just asked is "What is it about a big-brained primate that makes it a big-brained primate?" If you can't figure out the answer to the question, you should perhaps find a more remedial forum in which to lecture.

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  13. ...and functions largely on instinct. Much like conservatives

    And the mask finally drops. Those who thought Santi was a well-meaning but merely poorly educated and sloppy thinker may stand corrected... he was just a troll after all.

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  14. @ Santi

    You can make a more interesting case for the essence of a small brained primate than for a big brained primate because a small brained primate has little or no imagination, and functions largely on instinct. Much like conservatives.

    Coming from the guy who regards sexual desire as irresistible by mere humans, who regards humans as helpless in facing their animal instincts.

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  15. @ Daniel

    Of course when you say 'construct an argument' I am assuming you mean on broadly classical lines. I'm sure it could be done along the lines of Neo-Kantian, Existentialist or other ethical theories, though the question then becomes to what extent do these theories themselves work. Perhaps the best option someone could take would be a form of Ethical Intuitionism where Good and Love are held as objects of direct intuitive perception.

    Well, I meant along any lines. Particularly I mean the "folk sexual ethics" that the guy on the street holds, which, if he's a liberal, probably means that if he thinks about it he will endorse any relationship where there is consent, but if he doesn't think about it, he will insist that the slippery slope is a baseless fallacy. But I admit I am not that familiar with such alternative approaches. I still doubt, for instance, that one could justify homosexual activity without justifying "polyamorous" activity. Maybe there is some basis, but I don't really see how.

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  16. @David T:

    Ah, yes, a joke is strictly prohibited. Please.

    And as for Brandon, you're not answering because you can't. Sartre (in his play, The Flies) basically made a similar point about essentialism, noting that when God gave humans freedom, they could no longer be essentialized in the manner that a rock can be essentialized. The force of the point can be illustrated biologically by pointing to the big brain contrasted with a small brain. The more powers of thought, imagination, and tool using, the less one can speak to an organism's essence.

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  17. I don't get it. So Santi's essentially without a brain?

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  18. I'm beginning to think that Santi is really Feser in disguise teaching us the hard way to follow his advice not to feed the trolls...

    you win Ed.

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  19. @ Daniel

    I'm familiar with some of the reductios of the perverted faculty argument, but I don't think they work: sometimes it's just false - such as positing that deodorants frustrate human, or wrongheaded - such as all things involving medication.
    For some reason people keep forgetting about double effect.

    Concerning proposed tertiary functions - would these really be functions rather than simply consequences? What's important here is the teleology of the sexual power/act. And nothing in it seems to point to the things you describe. And given that
    I think that my analogy with lying in my reply to Santi is alright (though perhaps I didn't think it through, sorry for referencing in any case). Genitals are also urination, but these acts are different.
    How an (sexual) act of a substance can have two essential ends, I know not. And I don't see how a fulfilling a tertiary end would salvage the morality of the act if an essential end is frustrated.

    I don't recall the name of the article where the excellent point was made, but there is genuine value in close, caring, loving friendships formed by people of the same sex (recall Tolkien's Frodo and Sam, for example). These used to be quite wide-spread and praised.
    In contemporary sexualised slum of a culture, of course, people seem to believe such a thing in the abscence of sex is impossible (hence the revolting insinuations regarding Tolkien's characters, or pen-friendships etc. one can come across now). But I find this supposed necessity wholly illusory.

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  20. And as for Brandon, you're not answering because you can't.

    Oh, unlike you I can point out that among the things that makes a big-brained primate a big-brained primate is that it is a placental animal with opposable thumbs that has a relatively big brain for its mass. That's an inexact account, of course, since your 'big-brained' is itself an inexact description. They are also, of course, incomplete descriptions, because 'big-brained primate' itself is an incomplete classification of any animal; human beings cannot be simply identified as big-brained primates, as if that were all they were. The harder questions always arise as to whether we are dealing with essences in the primary sense or the secondary sense, or with extrinsic denominations.

    And if you weren't ignorant of essentialism, again, you would know that all major forms of essentialism -- Thomistic or otherwise -- regard essences as things that can be known more vaguely or precisely, more approximately or accurately, in more detailed ways or less detailed ways. Your repeated lecturing on essentialism shows that you are not aware of this basic fact, and that this is yet another instance of your irresponsible insistence on lecturing other people on things you don't have any knowledge of. Your appeal to Sartre merely clinches the point; nobody thinks that Sartre's account of essence was exact.

    As for your brain pseudoscience, in which you show that you don't even know that mere bigness of brain is not the issue, since sperm whales have brains more than twice the size of human brains, and that size of the brain on its own is not what guarantees 'more powers of thought' (as shown, for instance, by the fact that ravens, with tiny brains compared to much larger animals, can often solve much more complex problems) -- well, it just adds another example to the list of things which you wave at vaguely, misuse, and then draw false conclusions from.

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  21. @Daniel
    Apologies for being slow here but which post were you referring too?

    This one

    Daniel said...

    Also for the sake of our feminist critics I think we should abstain from that misogynistic habit of talking of masturbation as if it were in some way a specifically masculine vice.


    I think the 'misogynistic' bit was a cheap shot, which I meant to mention earlier. Ignorance is not misogynistic.

    On another note a few points you and Dylan brought up about Hell seem to me a little problematic to argue for. The first being that we ultimately do not know if even Judas is in Hell, in fact all that we know is that angels who had perfect knowledge and insight both into the wrongs they decided to do and the outcome of their evil choices are separated from God in a state we call 'Hell'. The Church has nowhere near a 'completed' theology of Hell.

    I have a further development of my own in relation to the entire nature of 'Hell'. So I imagine it might help to formulate it properly and put it up on my blog some time.

    @All This entire conversation was went way off topic from the OP by this stage.

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  22. @David T

    Good Advice...
    maybe I just need to step back, come up with a few good ideas for my new blog (know of 10 good philosophy books or whatever by any chance? lol) and come back when Feser has stopped trolling his readers (which, joking aside he could do for a laugh some day now you have given him/us the idea)!

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  23. If we're heterosexual, God, nature, and evolution have conspired heavy against us in terms of what our essential function is from the age of 13 forward, which is to procreate.

    But we don't conform to this aspect of our essential nature BECAUSE WE'VE GOT BIG BRAINS, and most of us choose not to marry and raise children until the age of about 27. Our big brains desire education, sexual novelty, and other adventures, such as travel, that override our more primitive biological natures to get on with reproduction. Many of these delays in marriage and reproduction are grounded in our natural desire to seek pleasure, learning, meaning, aesthetic experience, travel, writing, public esteem, mastery of a skill, cinema, play, sports, social scenes, music, dancing, etc.

    These are all fun. They're not driven by discipline and harshness, but a longing for novelty and joy. That's our essential nature; it's what it means to be a young and big brained primate. It's how God made us (if you want to put it this way). Eros, energy, and exploration are at their heights. We're in the realm of Walt Whitman from 13-27.

    What is therefore most essential about us is our big brained creativity, curiosity, and power to drive cultural and technological evolution much, much faster than old-school evolution. This makes for difficulties keeping up. Thomistic essentializing and grousing about the culture these days is a tortoise chasing a speeding train.

    Hence Thomism can ludicrously propose no sex--none!--and not even self stimulation, from 13 to 27 (or longer, if you wait till your 30s to marry). It's completely out of touch with reality, with what we are most essentially; with WHAT God made us and HOW God made us, which is by evolution building parts onto parts, and modules onto modules. Many of these parts and modules pull in different directions, and our big brains choose from among them, as from a menu of options).

    So what's essential here? Nothing. Evolution and God made one thing in the cosmos (it appears) that strongly, strongly transcends instinct and essence, and can drive evolution much quicker than biology: us.

    Let your own young and dancing priests lead you. They're instincts here are clean and in accordance with a deep wisdom that can help one see the value and beauty of gay relationships and marriage:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdYDKmpzt5U

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  24. @ Daniel

    Yes, point 1 is vague, and I'm not quite sure what "directly" means here. One has to keep in mind that both procreation and being alive is good (life is a per se good). Moreover, the efficaciousness of evil bringing about the Evil is dependent on the will of the person. We're contrasting the very real good of life and the possibility of salvation with the possibility of damnation. So I don't see the problem.

    What we know:
    1) God is just.
    2) God wills the salvation of men.
    3) Beatific vision is not owed to nature.
    4) Ordinarily, outside the Church there is no salvation.
    5) Unrepented mortal sin calls for punishment.

    Nothing in what we know precludes (!) a non-Catholic from being in the state of grace. Then again, there's the doctrine of invincible ignorance. Testing God is not good, though.
    Also, the traditional teaching tells of gradations in all the "states" (which seems to be a restatement of the justice of God).
    And if one affirms the distinction between natural and supernatural good (treating them as one), the absence of the latter does not negate the former.

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  25. This guy just repeats the same thing, over and over.

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  26. Ah, well. I suppose if I were a troll, I would probably go to a forum replete with conservative Catholics and just bang on about extra-marital sex, too.

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  27. Santi opined: "What is therefore most essential about us is our big brained creativity, curiosity, and power to drive cultural and technological evolution much, much faster than old-school evolution. This makes for difficulties keeping up."

    So when ya think about it, our essence involves the wonderfully creative power to drive so fast that we can't keep up with ourselves (so we end up saying and believing all manner of flummery). That's pretty compelling, on a certain level. Of course, theologically speaking, perhaps one should address this within the context of the nature and consequences of the Fall (sin, disordered desire, ignorance, death) at some point...

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  28. It's kind of funny that Step2 came in briefly and brought up the argument for homosexuality from heterosexual infertility. Santi goes on and on and on, repeating his assertions without even attempting to respond to criticisms, and in a few lines Step2 can present a better argument that anything Santi has produced in 3 long comment threads.

    Hence Thomism can ludicrously propose no sex--none!--and not even self stimulation, from 13 to 27 (or longer, if you wait till your 30s to marry).

    The horror! I think I'll explode!

    I think the atheists have missed the strongest version of the problem of evil: the argument from the impermissibility of masturbation. The universe couldn't be that cruel.

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  29. While the cost has been a derail, the melting down of Santi's actually been a fun sight to behold. He clearly switches between just plain not understanding the arguments (but swinging wildly at them anyway in a panic) to understanding some parts, but not really having an answer to any. And it's driving him nuts.

    This was supposed to be a fish-in-a-barrel exchange! But at every turn, he's undercut. He can't hold same-sex sexual acts as 'good' or even 'neutral' on his own metaphysical view. On the Thomist metaphysical view, he's got an uphill battle and he can't get very far. Hell, at this point it's clear he's an amateur when it comes to even the basics of grappling with biology and what sciences are relevant to humans and nature generally.

    All this hysteria, for what reason? Because he's worked up that someone expects him to *not* masturbate whenever he feels like it, to *not* have anal sex whenever the most primal urge sparks into that supposed 'big brain' (which seems capable of avoiding and denying whatever it needs except for what it wants to do)?

    But as others have said, this one takes the cake:

    Hence Thomism can ludicrously propose no sex--none!--and not even self stimulation, from 13 to 27 (or longer, if you wait till your 30s to marry).

    Gosh, masturbation is not sacrosanct! What sort of creature could possibly strive for self-control, self-mastery, and being able to behave?

    Oh, right. The rational ones, for whom delayed gratification (or even forgoing of some pleasures entirely) is not just possible, but typically actual. Hence civilization itself. Evolution may have primed many beasts to rape and murder. Not just from ages 13 to 27, but whenever necessary. It matters not - have some self-control.

    Which, by the by, is yet another strike not just against Santi's terrible arguments, but his own position. 'I have no essential nature!' he complains. Alright then: so much for complaining that you'll have to use your 'big brain' to engage in some self-control. Oh, you're complaining? Your essential nature isn't being violated: you have none, remember? You'll just have to deal with it.

    Laugh about it, shout about it, when you have to choose. Any way you look at it - you lose. ;)

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  30. @ Crude

    The rational ones, for whom delayed gratification (or even forgoing of some pleasures entirely) is not just possible, but typically actual.

    Come now. Why would BIG BRAINED primate seek delayed gratification when it can apply its novel creativity to the satisfying of any pleasure that comes across its mind? Your essentialist fiction is clearly a power grab designed to make people hate themselves.

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  31. Greg,

    Why would BIG BRAINED primate seek delayed gratification when it can apply its novel creativity to the satisfying of any pleasure that comes across its mind? Your essentialist fiction is clearly a power grab designed to make people hate themselves.

    I know, I know. It's the luddite in me speaking, clearly - I have little appreciation for the tremendous amount of man-hours, the scientific research, and the technological know-how backing up man's discovery of, uh... masturbation, bestiality and anal rape.

    Clearly that's what our big brains are for!

    And now, here's Dawkins!

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  32. @Greg:

    "Come now."

    That's a brilliantly succinct summary of Santi's position.

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  33. That's a brilliantly succinct summary of Santi's position.

    :D

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  34. @Crude:

    To be fair to The Boy Who Cried "Woolf," he does sometimes think we have essences.

    Oh, not here, to be sure:

    "Scott says a man with a wooden leg is still a man, and this is true only because we are big brain primates who can imagine ourselves as still being human with a wooden leg."

    Here he claims in effect that a dog with a wooden leg (or, presumably, prostheses) is no longer a dog.

    But hang on, there's also this:

    "The essence of a thing is always contextual."

    (Shades of Ayn Rand!) Well, then, which is it: that what we "point to" as an essence is arbitrary (and thus not a real essence at all), or that it's determined by context (and thus at least some sort of objective, intelligible "essence" even if it's not what an Aristotelian-Thomist means by the term)?

    Or is it neither? For it seems we have real essences after all:

    "Man is a tool using animal. (There's an essential definition for you.)"

    Not a very good one; rational animal is better. But at least it's an acknowledgement that human beings have an essence. These are too:

    "That's our essential nature[.]" "What is therefore most essential about us is…" "[W]hat we are most essentially…"

    Oh, but wait, no, we don't:

    "So what's essential here? Nothing."

    Apparently we have essences when Santi wants to use them in his "arguments," and otherwise not.

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  35. John West,

    I tend to use the term Platonic-Hermetic to refer to the broad Pythagorean-Platonic position which stretches from the Pre-Socratics through the Plato and the antique Platonists and manifests itself in different ways amongst Hermeticism and various movements originating in Semitic monotheism, from the Kabbalah to Cambridge Platonists to the Sufi. It is a clumsy term, but I can't think of another, except perhaps the Golden Chain (which is a term many Platonists have used, but would not be immediately recognised by others). I don't use simply Platonist because that tends to be interpreted solely according to modern interpretations of Plato and Plotinus alone, at best.

    I am also a compatibilist when it comes to the relationship between Platonist and Aristotelian thought.

    My knowledge of the philosophy of mathematics is limited, but I certainly subscribe to mathematical Platonism. But, like anyone within the Platonic-Hermetic tradition, I see all Forms are ultimately reflecting and residing within the One.

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  36. @ Scott

    That's a brilliantly succinct summary of Santi's position.

    Oh, you got me.

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  37. @Georgy Mancz,

    You wrote: "Essences are known via abstraction (and we abstract from sense data). Given that animals manifest immanent causality, and have organs corresponding to powers, we can find out their teleology. If real, powers of a thing are directed towards certain outcomes, on hylomorphic analysis. Hearts pump blood. Eyes facilitate seeing. Intellects are directed towards intelligible reality. Sorry for being graphic, but.. Penises serve as means of transporting sperm to vaginas."

    Then what is the big brain for? If you treat these organs in isolation in an instinctual animal, that's one thing. Their teleology seems a given, and I would tend to agree with you. You can convincingly generalize about what they're for (and how evolution has put them to use for the organism's survival). But when you put these organs beneath the big brain of a primate like us, with our creativity, it would seem to me that one organ (the brain) now dictates the purpose and use of the other organs.

    Example: the tongue of a cat is to lap milk (and other liquids) and remove loose fur from the pelt in cleaning. But the tongue of a creative person might be used for a fashion statement in the form of piercing, for speech, for sampling flavors in a kitchen, and for sexual play. There are lots and lots of ways for a creative primate to use a tongue, and these ways are not dictated by the tongue's discernible telos in isolation, but the brain's high-jacking of the tongue to its own purposes.

    Put another way, I'm inclined to agree with Sartre that humans are the game-changers in the cosmos. With everything else, it's arguable that essence precedes existence and that evolution is instantiating in the flesh logically possible forms with obvious purposes.

    But with humans I think Sartre is right that existence precedes essence. The creativity that God gave us when God gave us the sorts of brains that we have, makes any appeal to essences much less compelling for us (as compared to other animals).

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  38. Irish Thomas asked me my definition of "big brain." Just briefly (unusual for me, I know), by big brain I'm thinking not just obviously of a lot of neurons firing in a large cranium, but of how the big brain came about in the first place (by evolution). A big primate brain is the product of many twists and turns of evolution. The modules of the brain have each had their own evolutionary imperatives and they are now competing within the brain itself for expression and attention. Just like an ecosystem, the brain is hard to pin down as having a particular telos to which it is directed; it is open and interesting. Its evolved existence precludes any pointing to a definite essence or purpose it is tasked to fulfill. It has creativity and choice in ways that smaller, simpler, and more instinctually-driven brains do not, and it has modules that are both cooperating and competing with each other.

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  39. So WHERE are these universal essences you insist upon? And how do you KNOW that they're even there in the first place?

    One of the most important principles of modern physics is the Fermi exclusion principle, which states that you can't have two distinct particles of half integer spin in the same state at the same time. For example, in an atom, you can only have two electrons in each energy level, one spin up and one spin down. The muon is another particle, basically the same as an electron, but with a different mass. We can, however, have a spin up muon in the same energy level as the spin up electron. This isn't a matter of the mass difference -- in the theory, (if not in practice) we can adjust the particle masses to be the same, and we would get the same result. In other words, nature recognises that all electrons are of a particular type of particle, and all muons are of a different type of particle.

    Or take biology. I can pick a woman, mate with her, and produce fertile offspring, (assuming that we are both healthy and fertile ourselves). Another man can take the same woman, and mate with her to produce fertile offspring. However, if a tiger tries to mate with her, it won't produce fertile offspring. Thus nature makes a distinction between tigers and men. A tiger is one type of animal, and a man another type of animal.

    Note that in neither case is there any mental recognition of the different types involved (at least from us): these types are entirely objective. They exist in reality. I could have used two different spieces of dinosaur as my example rather than tigers and men.

    Now, as far as I am aware, there are three basic positions regarding universals. Realism (which, for simplicity, I will treat as synonymous with essentialism), which states that there are distinct objective universals (the "types" as I called them above are one example of universal); Nominalism, which states that there are no universals (i.e. two different electrons are just two particles which happen to share the same properties, and thus nature itself would not care that they were similar), and conceptionalism, which states that universals exist but only in the mind, i.e. they are not objective.

    What our examples show is that neither nominalism nor conceptionalism are tenable. There do exist objective types in nature (incidentally, this observation is still less than 100 years old; nominalism is reasonable under Newtonian mechanics, and the classic statements of it were made when it seemed as though Newton were right. Unfortunately, the philosophy department still hasn't got the message).

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  40. So WHERE are these universal essences you insist upon? And how do you KNOW that they're even there in the first place?

    One of the most important principles of modern physics is the Fermi exclusion principle, which states that you can't have two distinct particles of half integer spin in the same state at the same time. For example, in an atom, you can only have two electrons in each energy level, one spin up and one spin down. The muon is another particle, basically the same as an electron, but with a different mass. We can, however, have a spin up muon in the same energy level as the spin up electron. This isn't a matter of the mass difference -- in the theory, (if not in practice) we can adjust the particle masses to be the same, and we would get the same result. In other words, nature recognises that all electrons are of a particular type of particle, and all muons are of a different type of particle.

    Or take biology. I can pick a woman, mate with her, and produce fertile offspring, (assuming that we are both healthy and fertile ourselves). Another man can take the same woman, and mate with her to produce fertile offspring. However, if a tiger tries to mate with her, it won't produce fertile offspring. Thus nature makes a distinction between tigers and men. A tiger is one type of animal, and a man another type of animal.

    Note that in neither case is there any mental recognition of the different types involved (at least from us): these types are entirely objective. They exist in reality. I could have used two different spieces of dinosaur as my example rather than tigers and men.

    Now, as far as I am aware, there are three basic positions regarding universals. Realism (which, for simplicity, I will treat as synonymous with essentialism), which states that there are distinct objective universals (the "types" as I called them above are one example of universal); Nominalism, which states that there are no universals (i.e. two different electrons are just two particles which happen to share the same properties, and thus nature itself would not care that they were similar), and conceptionalism, which states that universals exist but only in the mind, i.e. they are not objective.

    What our examples show is that neither nominalism nor conceptionalism are tenable. There do exist objective types in nature (incidentally, this observation is still less than 100 years old; nominalism is reasonable under Newtonian mechanics, and the classic statements of it were made when it seemed as though Newton were right. Unfortunately, the philosophy department still hasn't got the message).

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  41. Now, once we have identified that there are distinct types of being in nature, we can ask what they have in common, and what can differ between them. The essence is defined as what they have in common relating to their ontological nature. An essential property is one that all the beings of that type have in common, an accidental property one that might differ between them.

    Now we know that one thing that men have in common is that they reproduce sexually. We know that certain organs are orientated towards that act; and certain parts of it likewise. Skipping a lot of details (which others can fill in better than I), we know that procreation is the primary final cause for sex. And this is true for all men, regardless of their sexual orientation.

    Now moral goodness, for an Aristotelian, means that the intention is in line with the final cause (goodness in general means fit for purpose; moral goodness adds our intentions to it). Thus, if we intend to use our reproductive organs in such a way that in the normal course of events (i.e. baring some injury or health problem or intervention stopping it) it would lead to a pregnancy, then that act is morally good (we may, of course, have other reasons for doing it as well, and that's fine). If we can intend to use them not for that purpose, then that act is an evil.

    I've skipped a lot of the details, because a) this isn't the right place to build a complete case, and b) others (including our esteemed host) can describe all this better than I can. But hopefully, what I have written will start to help you understand why people on this board find your recent posts risable.

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  42. Sorry for the double post; I was having connection problems and didn't see the first one went through.

    I should add that when I said "goodness means being fit for purpose" I should have clarified that I meant natural purposes (from final causality and natural teleology), not any random purposes our "big brains" attribute to that act. Obviously, ethics is intended, in part, as a rule to determine which of our desires lead to good actions and which lead to evil actions. One thus cannot use our own desires as the measure of whether something is good or evil without descending into circularity, and basically making ethics meaningless.

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  43. Quick post:

    BB remarks are good though I'd like to dispute one point.

    Nominalism is reasonable under Newtonian mechanics

    Nominalism is no more reasonable on Newtonian mechanics than it is elsewhere. Aside from the general problems it leads to like the Problem of Induction and of Causation Mechanics has to make universal reference to Matter, Force, Energy as well as Mathematical and Geometric entities (if anything this later betray Mechanism as a sort of watered down mathematical Platonism). Though he well and truly bungled the concept of the A Priori by taking it as given that experience cannot furnish us with any example of Necessity the entire project of Kant was based on the recognition that without some kind of necessity with regards the above mentioned entities the natural sciences would be impossible. He failed to see the true depth of the problem though since even without going into the internal contradictions of the Kantian edifice he has no way to justify why what he claims to be true about the human mind is true of necessity for all human minds.

    So questions of Realism go beyond any specific scientific theory to the very possibility of a scientific theory at all.

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  44. @Daniel:

    "Nominalism is no more reasonable on Newtonian mechanics than it is elsewhere."

    FWIW, I think you are completely right here. The examples BB listed, like the essences of fundamental particles (of which Ellis makes a great deal in his "Scientific Essentialism") just *add* to the evidence, but do not fundamentally change the nature of the problem.

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  45. @Greg and Georgy Mancz,

    My thanks for your replies.

    As to the vagueness of the first point I think it best to elaborate by example. Let's say you were to ask me for a plane ticket to Alaska and I was to give it to you. If I were to give you the ticket it would not be to directly put you at risk of evil though for all I know you might end up being eaten by bears or dying in the wilderness. If however I knew that there was an explosive device hidden on the plane and still gave you the plane ticket it would be an instance of my directly putting you at risk of evil (important to point out I am still only giving you the ticket because you asked and not because I consciously will you any evil).

    Concerning proposed tertiary functions - would these really be functions rather than simply consequences?

    I think this touches on the question of how teleology relates to the evolutionary process which I freely confess I'm uncertain about. If the differentiation into separate genders is an evolutionary development then surely any further adaptations of previously existing organs and their functions would also be. Final Causality is of course a lot deeper than evolution-speak but there is still the fact that our species enters into the world through evolutionary development (though not that this is essential to Life as I pointed out to Santi in the Morrissey thread).

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  46. Continued since for some reason it didn't allow me to post the whole thing in one.

    How an (sexual) act of a substance can have two essential ends, I know not. And I don't see how a fulfilling a tertiary end would salvage the morality of the act if an essential end is frustrated.

    That’s a good point. What I would be inclined to question is whether we should be talking in terms of the end of the sexual act or of the sexual organs and drives (waste disposal of course not being a function of the genitals qua sexual organs). I don’t think it’s immediately clear that the sexual organs and libidinous drives cannot have multiple ends.

    I'm familiar with some of the reductios of the perverted faculty argument, but I don't think they work: sometimes it's just false - such as positing that deodorants frustrate human, or wrongheaded - such as all things involving medication.

    I agree most of the reductio objections are basically straw man parodies. What i had in mind is something more like this:

    As an example we can draw an analogy between the use of contraception and someone who takes nux vomica after a meal in order to allow them to eat again. Since the cases are roughly parallel i.e. the thwarting of a natural end, whether reproduction or digestion for nutritive purposes, then the nux vomica case is immoral. Now I would say that this in fact true - said act is immoral though to modern ears it might sound a little odd talking of it that way (one could perhaps try to parody this by claiming, say, wine tasting is immoral because it involves spitting out the liquid, though I think the analogy fails since there is a difference between artificial thwarting the effect of an act and not carrying the act through to its completion).

    Let's go for a different example however, that of Tabaco smoking. The performance serves no natural end of the respitory or olfactory systems or the individuals organs involved. It is an unnatural usage in that it does not further natural ends in the way technology and the various crafts are intended to. Can its not serving an end be said to thwart the end though? It's obviously different from something stupid like trying not to breathe for fun. Yet if it can be said to thwart an end then it should be considered as immoral as, say, bestiality which seems counter-intuitive to say the very least.

    What we know:
    1) God is just.
    2) God wills the salvation of men.
    3) Beatific vision is not owed to nature.
    4) Ordinarily, outside the Church there is no salvation.
    5) Unrepented mortal sin calls for punishment.

    Nothing in what we know precludes (!) a non-Catholic from being in the state of grace.


    Surely for the latter to hold as a defence we would have to know more about the last proposition and howit relates to point 4. I’m not saying i'ts wrong but i't isn’t clear.

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  47. "Nominalism is no more reasonable on Newtonian mechanics than it is elsewhere."

    OK, I'll concede the point. I was just trying to be charitable in my earlier comments, and note that there were (and still are) Newtonian Nominalists. I think that it is possible to attempt to defend Nominalism starting from Newton. I agree, however, that nobody really succeeded.

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  48. @ Santi

    First, a minor point. I'd like to note that I think treating "the brain" as an organ is problematic - aren't we talking about several?..

    Then, repetition: you conflate evolution, how essences of living things got realised, with what the essence of a thing is.

    The key word in your reply is "high-jacking", for this is exactly what you propose.

    Natural law is about reasons, purposes of actions. Given that we're agents of immanent causality, these ends are objective. The first, obvious (descriptive) law is "Do good, avoid evil". It always holds in terms of subjective good in voluntary action (what one thinks is good).
    So what reasonable people here would do is make sure subjective good is in harmony with objective good, that what is actually worth pursuing, what actually is the purpose, final cause.
    And these are determined by what we are - our essence, humans, rational animals, in our case - and not simply what we want.

    What you're proposing is irrationality.
    Please note, that nothing in "creativity" points to and mandates violation of other objective final causes. The purpose of the practical intellect just is to find good for the will to pursue in concrete circumstances.
    You have an addtional, unjustifiable premise: "Do what you happen to want". You appeal to "democracy", "(avoiding) cruelty" etc. But basically it's just voluntarism, and yours is sinisterly close to the ultimately satanic "do what thou wilt".

    Equivocating on the word "existence" isn't going to help your case.

    To quote Plutarch:

    "Now absence of control, which some of the young men, for want of education, think to be freedom, establishes the sway of a set of masters, harsher than the teachers and attendants of childhood, in the form of the desires, which are now, as it were, unchained. [...] But you have often heard that to follow God and to obey reason are the same thing, and so I ask you to believe that in persons of good sense the passing from childhood to manhood is not a casting off of control, but a recasting of the controlling agent, since instead of some hired person or slave purchased with money they now take as the divine guide of their life reason, whose followers alone may deservedly be considered free. For they alone, having learned to wish for what they ought, live as they wish; but in untrained and irrational impulses and actions there is something ignoble, and changing one’s mind many times involves but little freedom of will. (On Listening to Lectures, 1)

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  49. Scott,

    Apparently we have essences when Santi wants to use them in his "arguments," and otherwise not.

    Johnny Vanning (Eduardo Ciannelli) in the 1937 crime film Marked Woman:

    "I don't make no deals with nobody. They make deals with me. All the time I've been that way, ever since I was that big. You think I care for money? All I care about is to make people do what I tell them."

    But, golly gee, that was 1937. Out-dated. Ho-hum.

    A more up-to-date version might be:

    "I don't accept reasoning from nobody. They accept reasoning from me. All the time I've been that way, every since I was irrational. You think I care for reason or consistency? All I care about is to make people think what I tell them."

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  50. @ Daniel

    About evolution: yes, it tells us how we animals got here, and as history can be very useful at illuminating final causes. But I don't see it's relevance beyond that for finding out final causes.

    "What I would be inclined to question is whether we should be talking in terms of the end of the sexual act or of the sexual organs and drives (waste disposal of course not being a function of the genitals qua sexual organs). I don’t think it’s immediately clear that the sexual organs and libidinous drives cannot have multiple ends."

    That's what I've been thinking about. But powers are manifested in acts. The only two powers that we know of genitals have are sexual and urinary. And the sexual act is essentially procreative.
    And if we are to talk about drives, I'd say it's not clear these are per se sexual, but can be thus, though immorally, manifested/expressed.

    Pleasant communal interactions do facilitate bonding. So, yes, I suppose given that exercising sexual power causes pleasure, bonding can result.
    But pleasure is clearly not an essential end of the act. Given this causal chain, perverse employment of the sexual power would be using immoral means (an sexual act of itself sterile).

    Regarding tobacco. I don't think tobacco's much different from food, and the purpose of breathing is sustaining oneself in existence, and it's not violated nor thwarted in the case of smoking, which is consuming substances.
    I think there's something analogous to sex between a husband and wife for conscious purposes other than -having-lot's-of-kids-right-now-.

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  51. @ Daniel

    I'd say that the analogy with the explosive device is faulty, for it will blow up, ceteris paribus, (excepting the recipient of the ticket being an explosives engineer with sufficient time), irrespective of what you do, and given the circumstances, the passangers will surely die.

    But the penalty of damnation (distingushed from not being granted the beatific vision) can only be merited by actual crime (therefore not irrespective of what one does).

    Concerning the last bit: I didn't write as a defence per se.
    I don't think God need defence here, for it is obvious that, because of His justice, there will be no disproportion between crime and punishment, whatever these be.

    About "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus": we know the Church provides everything necessary for salvation, and God has willed that everybody join her. So not becoming Catholic (excepting invincible, and thefore not culpable, ignorance) is testing God (for we do not positively know whether God bestows grace extraordinarily and thefore cannot rely on it) and resisting His will, and both are sinful.

    Admittedly, we don't know much (estimating vincibility of ignorance, for example, is practically impossible). Non-Catholic participation in the order of grace is not something we know of or can expect.
    And we can't beg the question against God.


    P.S.

    Not so obviously, "got" in the bit about evolution means (previous comment) the development of animals, and "here" is actually "now. Sorry.

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  52. Another way of looking at the infertile marriages vs. SSM equivalence:

    Say I'm part of a local football team in my town. A really, really bad football team. So bad, in fact, that we've never once won a single game in all my years of playing for them, and, barring a literal miracle, we're probably never ever going to win any games in the future. We win precisely zero football games. So too does the local cricket team; they win precisely zero football games. Nevertheless, my football team is fundamentally different to the cricket team, and is allowed to enter in local football competitions, because, although in practice we win no more football games than the cricket team does, we're nevertheless orientated towards winning football games in a way that the cricket team isn't.

    Similarly, an infertile opposite-sex relationship may produce no more children than a same-sex relationship does, but nevertheless it's orientated towards the begetting of children in a way that same-sex relationships just aren't. Hence it's every bit as reasonable to treat infertile opposite-sex relationships differently to same-sex relationships as it is to treat bad football teams differently to cricket teams.


    See, while I'd like to agree with this analogy, I think there is a problem here. Some infertility can be said to exist in degrees, and with that, I think the analogy more or less works. However, with people who are infertile with no hope of procreation (one who's had a vasectomy, for example), I think a more proper analogy would be that you are on a football team with only 10 players and thus cannot function as a full football team. The deficiency is accidental insofar as simply finding another player would fix things without actually changing what the team is. The problem I see is that one could arguably say that the 10-man football team ought not to be allowed to play in a football game any more than a cricket team is. And by analogy, if a homosexual couple is not allowed to get married, neither is an infertile couple with no medical hope of having children. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs here, but this is where I think the football analogy might be deficient.

    ccmnxc

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  53. "[B]y analogy, if a homosexual couple is not allowed to get married, neither is an infertile couple with no medical hope of having children."

    The problem with this analogy, I think, is that it doesn't distinguish between essences and essential properties (those that "flow from" or "follow from" essences but may in any particular case be thwarted, unexpressed, or unmanifested). The ability to reproduce doesn't cease to be essential just because a medical problem prevents its expression.

    On the other hand, for whatever it's worth, the early Church did discourage widows past the age of childbearing from remarrying, and infertility was regarded as legal grounds for divorce in civil law since long before divorces became easy to obtain.

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  54. @BB:

    You wrote: "[N]ature recognises that all electrons are of a particular type of particle, and all muons are of a different type of particle.... nature makes a distinction between tigers and men.... Note that in neither case is there any mental recognition of the different types involved (at least from us): these types are entirely objective."

    That's all great stuff, and I realize you're speaking loosely about what nature "recognizes." So I agree with realism or essentialism at this level. There are things "out there" in the world independent of what we say or think about them. Scientists discover real structures in nature, etc.

    I think where we're getting hung up is on the movement from is to ought.

    One reason we're getting hung up is evolution. What are the implications of evolution for the sorts of moral reasoning Thomists engage in?

    We know that evolution high-jacks organs all the time to different purposes depending on context. The first tongue may have had the singular purpose of tasting, then it got used by the cat for cleaning the pelt, then it got used by humans for speech and sex, etc.

    So nothing evolution evolves is settled in the sense that the way one generation uses an organ is the way the next generation ought to use an organ (think of the penguin's wing, which started as a tool for flying, then got hijacked by evolutionary imperatives as a tool for swimming).

    And now evolution has evolved the human big brain. The human big brain accelerates old-school biological evolution by creatively hi-jacking everything around it. That seems to be what a human brain is: a clever over-comer of natural states and functions by putting them to ends other than those they came into existence for. If God says, "I made pain in child-bearing a curse for original sin," God also seems to say, "And I made humans with a big brain for figuring out how to get around that issue by injecting epidurals into the spine." If God says, "I made the penis for ejaculating semen into the vagina," God also seems to be saying, "And I made big brains for figuring out how to bypass traditional reproduction completely, and make use of sex primarily for pleasure, joy, love, and bonding."

    Thomistic ethical premises thus strike me as grounded in a too-simplified notion of what can be read off of a fact of nature. Evolution doesn't limit its options in the use of an organ, and so it's question begging as to why we should either. One can't appeal to nature and at the same time not notice how evolutionary nature actually works.

    I realize this ungrounds ethics from objectivity of the sort we can bring to saying things about particle physics. But God has not given us a map for this territory (unfortunately). We don't discover ethics "out there" like we discover electrons "out there."

    That's why I keep going back to love. If the motive for actions can be linked to the better angels of our nature (love, curiosity, kindness, joy, etc.), that would seem to transcend any claim that it's not the proper use of this or that organ to use it in this or that way. Gay marriage would seem to be an obvious example of how the Thomist strains out a gnat (how the sex organs function in reproduction) and swallows the camel (how big brain humans hijack evolution; it's central to their nature to do so).

    If you're moving toward love, you're moving toward God (if God in fact exists). It's the central thing that we can read off of any ethics grounded in theism, in my view. To try to ground moral choices in nature's nature, as opposed to God's nature (love), is to run into problems with evolutionary hijacking. If you know evolution hijacks, you can't say what an organ is for in a universal context.

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  55. It's also worth noting that morality (and marriage!) being a matter of will and choice, the bare biology is not a complete account of what is going on, although it is an obvious fact that it is part of the account. If someone married someone because of their infertility, traditionally it would have been treated more-or-less the same as in the same-sex case (the major difference is that you could rectify the situation just by changing your mind). It just wouldn't be likely to come up in any kind of law, because of the difficulty of establishing it. And, on the reverse side, a same-sex union made in the sincere but mistaken belief that same-sex unions could in and of themselves result in children, would on standard principles not be in the same moral situation as other same-sex unions -- I'm not sure how it would be treated, actually; it would be a highly anomalous case, but it's in principle possible, in the same way that you can really find African tribes who don't think children come from sex. Invincible ignorance exculpates.

    Thus it's necessary to take into account the role of deliberate choice in these matters; which I think tends to complicate the issue of infertility further.

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  56. Georgy Mancz wrote: "The key word in your reply is 'high-jacking', for this is exactly what you propose."

    Yes, and so let's illustrate how each of us, straight or gay, hijacks an organ of our own bodies at least once a week for pleasure, and not to its highest end, and how we could, if we wanted to, call it a sin against the very essence of what that organ is for.

    I'm not talking about a sex organ here, I'm talking about the mouth. We could decide that, with regard to food, the mouth's end is to bring nutriment into the body, and so should be used for that reason alone. The nutriment of the body is so that the body and mind can serve God.

    Therefore, one must never eat for pleasure or solely for pleasure, but for nutriment only. One should never, ever, for example, spit out one's food after enjoying the pleasure of chewing it. And if you put anything in your mouth that is ultimately bad for you health-wise (Haagen-Dazs; Captain Crunch), you are in sin and should not take communion. One also should not be watching food channel porn, for this stimulates an undo focus on gustatory pleasure, tempts you to clog the arteries God gave you, and makes you callous to animal cruelty because you know that the flesh being carved up comes from factory-bred animals. No "Chopped" Season 4 for those focused on God.

    One could reason this way, and that's exactly how Augustine and Thomas basically reasoned about sex. And it's wrong. It's ignoring that the human brain evolved for the hijacking of functions to other purposes, often good and joyous ones (like watching back-to-back episodes of "Chopped" with friends and family).

    Is there wisdom in eating well? Of course. Is there common sense that enters into the equation? Yes. Gay marriage is an example of where common sense would say, "Let them marry and watch 'Chopped' on the couch together, holding hands and eating excessively buttered and salted popcorn. Let them risk blood sugar problems in their bad food choices. And afterwards, let them retire to bed together. Such an evening is not the typical end use of the mouth or sex organs as typically deployed by evolution, and it's not their highest use if one is going to be focused on nutriment and reproduction all the time, but it's oriented to love and bonding. It's what God gave humans big brains to do, to creatively hijack functions to other functions."

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  57. @ Santi

    Yes, seriously, what are these implications?.. Does evolution abolish essences? No, it does not.
    Do we have essences and final causes? Yes. Do we always pursue at least subjective good? Yes, we do. Does our intellect, including practical intellect, have final causes? Sure.

    You're unable to distinguish teleology and possibility. Yes, it's possible for us to be deceived. Is it possible to pursue something that there's no objective reason at all to pursue? Yes, it is.
    What you refer to as "high-jacking" - embraced voluntarism - entails just that (at least at some point), and therefore irrationality.
    The suggestion (that you think comes from God) about high-jacking your own nature and bypassing it is pretty much the same as the one entertained by a rapist when he sees a beautiful and vulnerable enough girl.
    When perceived practical possibility (like in the case of abusing your nature) and desire equals an "ought" in ones mind.

    No, natural law is directly grounded not in God, but in natures. Voluntarism and shrill emotivism have no grounding apart from will and emotions.

    I know in our secular age one rarely hears this, but can you please, please stop blaspheming?..

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  59. Apparently someone needs to inform Santi that Aquinas deals with the vice of gluttony as well as the vice of lust.

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  60. And it seems we can add bulimia to masturbation and sodomy as things to be celebrated in Santi's world.

    Makes me think of the vomitorium skit from SNL.

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  61. Brandon:

    It's not all that hard to locate an early church father analogizing procreative sex with food. I'll let somebody else locate a specific Thomas passage, but here's Augustine doing it, and I assume Thomas would be inclined to "amen" Augustine on such a matter (De Doctrina Christiana, Bk. 3, Ch. 18, No 27): "Those to whom the apostle allowed bodily intercourse with a single spouse as pardonable on a count of their intemperance are on a lower step towards God than the patriarchs who, though each had more than one [wife], aimed in intercourse with them only at the procreation of children, as a wise man aims only at his body's health in food and drink."

    In, other words, sex and food intake have ends that are not grounded in pleasure, so you shouldn't pursue them for pleasure if your highest end is God's purpose for the sex organs and mouth. Ideally, you're wise to have sex and eat without pursuing or deriving pleasure from these activities, for taking pleasure from them is basically hellish. You're just passing through this world; focus on the spirit, not the flesh. "Love not the world, neither the things of this world,..."

    Bertrand Russell, in his "A History of Western Philosophy," sums this attitude up fairly when he writes, in his chapter on the rise of science, that Protestants and Catholics everywhere in Europe "opposed as long as they could practically every innovation that made for an increase of happiness or knowledge here on earth" (p. 529 Touchstone edition).

    This is what's going on with gay marriage. Thomists are locked in on the primary function of the sex and mouth organs qua sex and mouth organs, ignoring the benefits of stability, love, happiness, and bonding for the gay individuals who want to marry one another, and pursue happiness as a team in this life, using their big brains (which God gave them) to imaginatively put organs to use in ways other than their essential function in evolution.

    This is why I think love is a better basis for ethical reasoning, not essences. It arrives at saner conclusions. There shouldn't be, for example, a problem redirecting the use of an organ or the course of something in Nature if it's oriented to love or human happiness. We redirect rivers, and dam them; we give women epidural shots in the lower back to bypass pain in child bearing, and we don't call these things sins. Why not?

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  62. Yes, Santi, the analogy between food and sex is almost universal. That was not at issue in any way, showing yet again your problem with reading arguments intelligently.

    Russell's History of Western Philosophy, while a fun book, is also (notoriously!) not a good source for almost any of the topics discussed, and only someone who doesn't actually know anything about the history of philosophy would appeal to it as a historical source.

    This, however, shows that you don't understand the arguments in question:

    In, other words, sex and food intake have ends that are not grounded in pleasure, so you shouldn't pursue them for pleasure if your highest end is God's purpose for the sex organs and mouth. Ideally, you're wise to have sex and eat without pursuing or deriving pleasure from these activities, for taking pleasure from them is basically hellish.

    This is entirely false, and based a logical fallacy. Augustine's conception of bodily health includes pleasure, as does his account of sexual union. As any Platonist or Aristotelian, however, he regards it as a derivative thing arising from completeness of other ends. Thus his argument is not saying what you are claiming he is saying. Not that that was any surprise.

    Likewise, your comments on nature show that you don't understand the Thomistic position at all -- whether that of Thomas himself, who does not put much emphasis on the impeded function or perverted faculty argument, and only in specific contexts dealing with specific objections, or that of Thomists who make more central use of the argument.

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  63. Brandon,

    Maybe you're trying to soften Augustine. I don't know. But his analogy is clear as a bell: it's better to marry than to burn with lust, but if you marry to relieve your lust, a polygamist with many wives is closer to God than you if he doesn't focus on pleasure in intercourse, but on just making babies.

    Augustine made the analogy, I didn't. Then he linked it to food. You can pretend I'm misreading the passage, but that's what he's saying.

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  64. You will notice, Santi, that I said nothing about lust in my response to your comment. This is one reason why everyone here has difficulty not regarding you as an idiot: they will respond to you and you will reply not to their actual response but to some fiction in your head. To reiterate:

    (1) I specifically said that the analogy to food and sex was practically universal.
    (2) I specifically pointed out a specific claim you made by Augustine and specifically addressed that specific claim. Your claim is a misinterpretation because it mistakenly fails to recognize that Augustine, like practically any Neoplatonist or Aristotelian, holds that pleasure naturally arises on completion of other ends. Thus your claim "taking pleasure from them is basically hellish" is eisegesis.

    So yet again we see you simply making things up about what other people are saying.

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  65. Brandon doesn't need to soften anything. You should eat for the sake of health, not for pleasure, but it is perfectly fine to take pleasure in that which you eat for the sake of health. In fact, the ideal situation is to train yourself to like foods that are healthy for you, which is what nutritionists hope you will do. Not condemn the nutritionist on the basis that chips and Coke might be good for you after all since you don't really have any stable "essence."

    Sex is similar. Nowhere does Augustine say it is wrong to take pleasure in sex. What he says is that it is wrong to engage in sex for the purpose of pleasure rather than procreation. And its just as unreasonable to dismiss him on the basis of some half-baked theory about real and fake essences as it would be to dismiss your nutritionist.

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  66. And it's worth adding to what David T says, that if Augustine were to say what Santi thinks he should have said in the context of the problems he was actually addressing, he would have been claiming that husbands should marry their wives primarily in order to use their wives' bodies for pleasure. This is one of the problems Augustine is fighting. He is quite explicit about it when he is attacking the Manichaeans, who, he argues, often use their wives like whores by treating them as bodily devices for satisfying their desires rather than forming genuine marriages with them in order to build families.

    (Likewise, we can also add to the mix that Santi's interpretation of Augustine would require a Stoic account of the passions, which Augustine forcefully rejects in places like the De Civitate.)

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  67. My doctor says he often tells patients, "You shouldn't do things just because you 'like to'." He does not, of course, mean that pleasure is evil.

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  68. I wonder what end is frustrated/what act is intentionally opposed to its perfection when we eat food that is more delicious than what we typically eat.

    I'm not really familiar with the phenomenon of "food channel porn", but because of its name (and it being used here) I suppose there might be some connection to gluttony. Somewhat curious, though.

    P.S.
    To Catholics reading this.
    Repeating my initial postscriptum:
    What's your take on the exact meaning of the infallibility canon in Pastor Aeternus?

    I'm inclined to believe that a Pope pronouncing heresy from the Chair of Peter is a practical impossibility, but I have been unable to find the right (old) books to ascertain that.
    Perhaps someone has recommendations?

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  69. Georgy,

    I think something important for interpreting it that most people overlook is that Pastor Aeternus gives explicit examples of what it is talking about:

    (1) calling an ecumenical council
    (2) defining a doctrine as a result of calling a consultation of the whole Church
    (3) defining a doctrine on the basis of a more local council

    It makes clear that these examples are not exhaustive, but they emphasize the fact that the relevant actions are necessarily done with the Church, not independently of it. And that's not surprising given the way the doctrine is formulated: 'papal infallibility' is actually a shorthand. Infallibility actually belongs to the Church as a unity; because of this the Pope exercises the infallibility of the Church precisely when he is acting as representative and guardian of the unity of the Church, in his capacity as successor of Peter, and not under any other conditions. It's not the Pope's infallibility; it's the Church's infallibility exercised by the Pope when he acts as Peter.

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  70. @David T:

    "In fact, the ideal situation is to train yourself to like foods that are healthy for you, which is what nutritionists hope you will do. Not condemn the nutritionist on the basis that chips and Coke might be good for you after all since you don't really have any stable 'essence.'"

    And it's even further from ideal to stick French fries in your ears and call that "eating," and then get annoyed when the nutritionist disagrees.

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  71. (And to attack the nutritionist because there are people who like to "eat" French fries with their ears and say it makes them "happy," and we should "love" them—well, that might just be borderline insane.)

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  72. Scott,

    You clearly don't know how to use your big brain to repurpose organs for the unconventional enjoyment of fries. You're locked in this Thomistic prison that can't think of anything more for ears to do than hear. Well, too bad for you. Just means more fries for me.

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  73. @ Scott

    (And to attack the nutritionist because there are people who like to "eat" French fries with their ears and say it makes them "happy," and we should "love" them—well, that might just be borderline insane.)

    I think you are underestimating how imaginative and creative I can be. I should warn you, I have a big brain.

    Are you really saying there is a purpose to the mouth--eating--and my ears cannot share that purpose if it is oriented to love? Do you realize that people also use their mouths to talk all the time? There is a good reason that Sartre and Woolf called this power-grubbing essentialism for what it really is.

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  74. @ Brandon

    Thank you!
    I'd count myself among these who did not overlook it.

    That's why my question is rather narrow.
    For it is conceivable that this supposed Pope would be "materially" acting in this capacity, but not formally, actually, when pronouncing something heretical.
    Is this even possible? If it is, what would happen? It has never happened in history, I know.
    What complicates matters, in my view, is that the Pope's definition is formal, concrete. The dogma states that it is not dependent on the consent of the Church. How would one differentiate between consent and unity?

    Sorry if I'm not making much sense.

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  75. @David T and Greg:

    He who has ears, let him eat.

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  76. See, these norms about "eating" food came about back when people spent most of their time tending the land. Now science has shown us that there are far greater possibilities, and food can be used for many things that ages past could not even fathom.

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  77. Georgy

    While the papal definition does not need confirmation by the consent of the Church, I think the implication of the passage is that this is because it is itself already an expression of the consent of the whole Church -- it doesn't need another consent to get any authority. We see this quite obviously in the case of the ecumenical council and the universal consultation: the whole Church is involved from the beginning. This is less clear in other cases -- local synods, for instance -- but I think this is just because sometimes it is not necessary to go as far as an ecumenical council or universal consultation in order for the Pope to acting with the whole Church. So I don't think there's any separability of the material and the formal action in the capacity of the Pope himself -- what the pope is doing is formally articulating the material assent of the Church, taken as a unity. The definition is itself the formal aspect of the act.

    It's also worth noting (although it gets us into more controversial issues) that Pastor Aeternus gives the end or final cause of the relevant actions: to "religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles". If the Pope were to say, "We define, as successor of St. Peter, that Christ was not God", it doesn't matter that he used the words 'define'; there is no possible way that claim can be appropriate to the end on which papal authority depends -- since end defines form of action, nothing inconsistent with the end could be the relevant kind of action. On the other hand, the Pope might proclaim that something was true that could easily be taken heretically, and we could even posit for the sake of the hypothetical that the Pope himself takes it heretically. But it can only be by formally articulating the universal faith of the Church: Vatican I is very clear that the content for any such definition is already there -- he is just setting it out formally. So interpreting it requires not just the formal definition but the material content that it is defining. Papal definitions are not abstract propositions but teaching-expositions of what is already given. They can't be understood on their own, but only in the context of what they are clarifying or expounding.

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  78. @Greg:

    "See, these norms about 'eating' food came about back when people spent most of their time tending the land. Now science has shown us that there are far greater possibilities, and food can be used for many things that ages past could not even fathom."

    Even Aquinas didn't stand aloof from history, after all; he lived at a time when food was still in short supply and therefore he acknowledged only certain very specific uses of food as "eating." Today we're free to use food for just any old thing and call that "eating" if we want to. And that's what we will do it we're oriented to love.

    The more I think about this, the more I realize how much sheer power is held by those who control definitions. Think of all the babies and toddlers who have been persecuted throughout human history by being told that stuffing food in their ears was "no way to eat!"

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  79. Brandon

    Thank you.
    I still have trouble with the notion of consent (!) of the Church as is(it can be taken to sound democratic), especially given that Papal approval just is the ultimate criterion for the authority of Councils etc.
    But I rarely forget that the Pope is not the King.

    So in your view a formally heretical pronouncement is in fact impossible (rather than proposed scenarios of losing the Papacy/excommunicating oneself, or even falsification of Christianity)?..

    Sorry if this is silly.

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  80. Somebody, Greg himself perhaps, save me the trouble of reading every single message and answer this:

    "Greg said...

    @ Santi

    'The motive of activists is not what should be at issue, but what is right and true.'

    Do you repudiate your previous claim that you are approximately 99% sure that "nature is completely without purpose or value"?"

    Greg thus asks a very specific question regarding one possible grounding for Santi's apparent demand of an associative toleration, and even validation, of homosexual practices.

    Presumably then, if you are to imply that a certain behavior can be assigned a place within the constellation of objective and intrinsic values, you must be willing to grant that there is such a thing as an intrinsic value in the first place.

    This issue was also clearly restated by Crude.

    Then the discussion seemed to have drifted off on a tangent

    Did Santi ever directly address this question?

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  81. Georgy,

    The word 'consent' is not important; the thing to remember is that the only infallibility that is ever exercised anywhere in the Church is that of the Holy Spirit working through the whole Church. I myself don't think that papal approval is the ultimate criterion for the authority of Ecumenical Councils -- like the Pope, Ecumenical Councils have authority in their own right. It is the case, however, that the Pope given his authority can recognize a council as an Ecumenical Council, and that a council can cease to be an Ecumenical Council by explicitly excluding the Pope. In addition, all the bishops together have authority independent of any confirming action on the part of the Pope, although the Pope is one of the bishops, and all the faithful together can have authority independent of any confirming action on the part of the Pope, although the Pope is one of the faithful. Papal authority works exactly the same way: the Pope has his authority independent of any confirming action on the part of the Church, although it is an authority that necessarily consists in working with the Church as a whole. And the reason they all work more or less the same way is that they are all distinct modes of the one and only infallibility that is found in the Church as a whole.

    I do however think that formally heretical definition is impossible -- logically impossible, in fact, since a heresy is necessarily divided from the faith and a definition (by definition!) articulates and clarifies the faith already received.

    I think in both cases this is the most natural reading of Pastor Aeternus. But it is certainly true that there are controversial questions on both.

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  82. Edward Feser writes of voluntarists and their relation to liberalism:

    "The tendency is therefore to regard any such imposition as an affront to his dignity. The liberty that the liberal wants to further is freedom from fetters on the individual’s will, whether those fetters are political, social, moral, religious, or cultural. The individual will is sovereign, its dignity supreme."


    Odd then, and speaking generally, that when it comes to politics, they cannot extend that cherished sovereignty to the point wherein they grant conservatives or libertarians a political exemption from the duty of socially underwriting their personal misjudgments, or enabling and validating their annoying behavioral imbecilities.

    Instead, its always, solidarity this, and solidarity that. Almost as if they believe they have ... well gee ... an intrinsic value, which you concomitantly have the moral duty to preserve in existence.

    Now, the skeptical might imagine that they're just engaging in a cynical, and ultimately parasitical, social manipulation gambit; mouthing platitudes which they disbelieve themselves, merely for political effect.

    Like I said: strange.

    Or maybe not so strange; since it is likely their own will-to-directed-evolution-power, and not necessarily yours, that interests so many of the postmodern liberal kind.

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  83. @ DNW

    Did Santi ever directly address this question?

    He responded that he could not tell what the purpose of the cosmos was, i.e. why there are apparently a bunch of random galaxies drifting about. This was his response:

    I see no evidence that the cosmos has an end to which it is tending. It's vast and old, violent and evolving. It appears to care not for us. (Auden captured this beautifully in "Musee des Beaux Arts.")

    And gravity brings new stars into existence even as others die and explode. It doesn't seem to be tending toward any purpose. And we're late comers to the whole process. Even our star is a late comer. Others stars came and went long before ours even got here. So the cosmos' end, if it has one, certainly does not appear to be us. The Holocaust doesn't help the purpose thesis here. (I'm thinking of Camus' perspective after WWII.)

    If God exists, there may be some inscrutable goal and value to which the cosmos is tending, but again, it doesn't appear to be focused on us, or anything we can understand. Why, for example, did God use 3 billion years of death and competition to generate life's current complexity on our planet? Why make such exquisite cellular machines only to have them EAT one another? Why bring into existence whole species and ecosystems, then wipe them out? (There have been numerous mass extinctions in Earth's history.) It just makes no sense.

    If there was evidence that the cosmos was young, small, revolved around planet Earth, and suffused with miraculous events, one would reasonably conclude that something purposeful and supernatural was up, even with God not talking. And if each animal appeared to be specially created, that would be interesting. But none of this is the case. And God isn't talking.

    Nevertheless, the fact that there is life and mind in the material cosmos at all is stunning, so maybe something purposeful is up after all. I don't know.


    You might say that he missed the implicature of my question. In context it was clearly a question about why someone who does not believe in objective values would make appeals to the "right" and the "true". He interpreted it the way he wanted; that is, in a way that did not clarify his position at all.

    I pointed out my intention to him and he never clarified.

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  84. Gay equality is a logical extension of racial equality and women's equality.

    Agreed. Garbage in, garbage out.

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  85. Brandon,

    We're in agreement. Perhaps I'm spending too much time on rather wild hypotheses.
    I did think that the word "criterion" would be intuitively understandable as signifying an epistemological concern (how we know a council to be of ecumenical rank, or "how much" of it). It's important, I think, because it is related to the question of "who counts", who belongs to the Church (her as a whole, "faithful" in "all of the faithful").

    Thanks again. Apologies for bad writing.

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  86. Greg says,
    " You might say that he missed the implicature of my question. ... I pointed out my intention to him and he never clarified.

    October 29, 2014 at 2:57 PM"



    Well, then, he obviously wished to evade and avoid facing the logical ... (drumroll)


    ... of his own worldview.

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  87. @Brandon and Georgy,
    thank you for this thorough exchange.

    Brandon said:
    I do however think that formally heretical definition is impossible -- logically impossible, in fact, since a heresy is necessarily divided from the faith and a definition (by definition!) articulates and clarifies the faith already received.


    I've had similar with a Lutheran friend, and my shorter answer has been that the phrase "in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians" precludes heresy - since if he tried to define something heretical, he would fail to exercise his office of teacher of Christians - we would know what he was saying was against the faith.

    Does this work on the same lines? We almost always know what the faith is independently of papal pronouncements.

    @Scott
    Thank you for the belly laughs!

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  88. Ears are re-purposed for things other than hearing. People neck around the ears for pure pleasure. People reach orgasm while being "worked on" at the ear. Ears can be pierced and given tattoos for ornamentation and sexual attraction; lobes can be stretched for cultural identifications and affiliations. Ears hold eye glasses in place, which assists in sending signals of status and attraction. In humans, ears are not just for hearing. But by your understanding of Thomism, is it wrong for people to reach orgasm at the ear? Should the tongue and breath ever be used on the ears or genitals? Or are these sorts of uses of these organs prohibited?

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  89. Contrary to what you seem to think, Santi, Thomists do not spend all their time identifying 'prohibited actions' in sexual matters; they identify general principles and leave the rest to prudence. It just happens that some actions happen to be inconsistent with the general principles. However, 'reaching orgasm', being in itself nothing but a physiological response, is not a voluntary action and therefore is not itself a moral question at all.

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  90. Georgy,

    I don't think it was written badly at all; I just read it a different way than you intended.

    Chris,

    I think that works. I think there are three interconnected ways one can approach the question -- they are distinct, but intertranslatable. That is, one can do it by efficient cause (which is to focus on the office, as you do), by formal & material cause (the nature of a definition as an articulation/clarification of the living faith of the Church), and by final cause (the guarding and expounding of the apostolic faith).

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  91. Thanks Brandon, very useful to think of it in terms of the 4 causes!

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  92. DNW:

    I did respond to Greg's question, but it's deep in this thread, or perhaps even in the last one, so I'll respond briefly here.

    Yes, I think there is a real world out there and that things can be said about it.

    I also think the universe is, but there is no one way the universe must be described. There are all sorts of ways for talking about the way things are. Some ways look to be better than others.

    I like very, very much Stephen Hawking's sensible suggestion of model-dependent realism. I remember reading his idea in his book, "The Grand Design," and thinking that I'm basically a model-dependent realist. So if you can locate that book, I think that's a sensible alternative to Thomistic essences that doesn't run to Rorty-style nominalism. (Rorty, by the way, in my view, gets a bad rap. He doesn't deny that you can say true things about, say, the moon. He denies that there is a language for talking about the moon that is essential and discoverable. Nature doesn't speak, we speak.)

    So pragmatically, if we don't assume the models we place over reality are "essential fits," but merely "good fits," that keeps Galileo's telescope active (metaphorically). If we think we've arrived at the absolute essence of a thing, Popper says we're in danger of stopping the process of looking, and I agree. If we think we've already arrived at the truth, we might start missing interesting things at the margins that might one day upend our current framing gestures.

    And I think it's much trickier to talk about ethical essences than physical essences (such as what water is).

    So I'm going to admit the following: there is no way that a liberal like me can tell Antigone whether the highest good is to bury her brother or to obey the king. I can't tell her sister Ismene whether and who to marry, whether she should help her sister bury her brother, or whether she should take up a life of painting instead of being a mother.

    There is just no way for me to translate the world's "essences" as I might think I've figured them out, into, say, whether Ismene should marry a man or a woman, be cruel to her neighbor or kind. It's all question begging, and that's because God made us with huge brains that can cleverly override the given in Nature.

    When should we? When shouldn't we?

    I have a decided preference: bias your ethics strongly toward love, inclusion, tolerance, and cooperation. Make the circle of "who's in" bigger. If God exists, you're going in the right direction, and if God doesn't exist, you're at least encouraging your social species to exhibit the better angels of their nature.

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  93. "It's all question begging, and that's because God made us with huge brains that can cleverly override the given in Nature."

    Translation: If your brain is big enough, you can eat French fries with your ears.

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  94. And by the way…

    "So I'm going to admit the following: there is no way that a liberal like me can tell Antigone whether the highest good is to bury her brother or to obey the king."

    …please note (as I'm sure all concerned will do) that this doesn't answer Greg's question—which was how, on Santi's outlook, he thought he was entitled to speak about good and evil at all, not whether he could be expected to make a moral judgment in this or that particular case.

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  95. Brandon,

    You said: "'reaching orgasm', being in itself nothing but a physiological response, is not a voluntary action and therefore is not itself a moral question at all"

    Hmm. That's an odd, odd way of putting it. An orgasm is not like tripping over a curb while crossing a street. You usually need to go after it a bit. So in your view, can one, on Thomistic grounds, PURSUE, strictly for pleasure, an orgasm via the ear? Can the ear be used in this manner?

    In other words, can one make a habit, when with one's lover, of inviting that lover to "do that thing she or he does" with the ear that brings you to orgasm (breathing on it, tonguing it, kissing it, tickling it, moaning into it, talking dirty into it, etc.)?

    Or is this an abuse of the ear's proper function?

    And if you indulge a meal at a fancy restaurant together ($300), and it leaves the two of you deeply, deeply satisfied, but not healthily nourished, is that a misuse of the body's function as well?

    Just what sorts of conclusions does one draw with regard to pursuits of pleasure in knowing what the (supposed) essences of your own organs are?

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  96. @Scott

    Imagine what a sperm whale (mentioned by Brandon), or her (!!!) cousin, the blue whale, for that matter, could do with BRAINS THAT HUGE, if only they were to stop slavishly following their natures?! Such a tragedy. God is so cruel.
    Just think of all the creative possibilities!

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  97. @ Santi

    Are you really incapable of seeing the difference between physiological responses and voluntary actions (pursuit), just like you seem to be unable to differentiate between abusing acts (like initiating essentially sterile sexual acts) and pursuit of other ends without frustrating essential ends?
    How exactly does eating expensive food frustrate or abuse the end of nourishment?

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  98. "So in your view, can one, on Thomistic grounds, PURSUE, strictly for pleasure, an orgasm via the ear?"

    Yes, if Thomism is oriented to lobe.

    Seriously, is there anyone who didn't see this meta-missing-of-the-point coming?

    @Georgy Mancz:

    Yes, it's high time we stopped holding those whales hostage to our preconceptions and let them use their BIG BRAINS to repurpose their natures! Because I'm sure that's what's stopping them.

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  99. The problem with your ethics, Santi, is that you are not defining what you mean by `love', and I suspect that you are meaning it in several contradictory senses simultaneously. For example, agape, Caritas or chastity is usually defined as `the desire for good', and this is held to be the highest Christian virtue. When we say that `God is love' this is what is meant. On the other hand, `eros' or `romantic love' refers to the romantic feelings, for example that exist in a marriage that works well. Granted `eros' often leads to agape, and is good in many contexts. But it is begging the question to say that it is always good. Examples of eros which are not good which I hope we can agree on are those feelings involved in adultery, paedophilia, and so on.

    That homosexual relationships contain eros is not questionable. But is that eros directed correctly? -- That is a question we must answer. In other words, is the eros in line agape? But before we can answer that, we need some prior understanding of what is good (so we know what agape desires). And we cannot rely on `love' for that definition without descending into circularity.

    But if homosexual relationships are not directed towards the good, then they are in the most important sense (i.e. as the opposite of agape) hateful; they cause harm, both physically (because the anus is not designed for sex acts, so easily gets damaged or transmits disease), psychologically and most importantly morally (`people like that will not enter the kingdom of heaven'). In other words, given the premise that they are not good, to support homosexual activity is to hate the people involved. Am I begging the question with my first premise? I have already hinted at an argument to outline it. Are you begging the question when you say that the `love' involved in a homosexual relationship is the type of love that is always good? It seems to me you certainly are.

    As an example, when I give to the poor, I do so on account of agape, and there is no eros involved. If goodness were defined in terms of eros, this would be a morally neutral act; something which we both regard as false. Thus in other ways you must consider agape as the gauge of a good act. So why do you instead use eros in the case of sexual activity?

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  100. @BB:

    "[I]s the eros in line agape? But before we can answer that, we need some prior understanding of what is good (so we know what agape desires). And we cannot rely on `love' for that definition without descending into circularity. "

    …or hedonism. Either way, I think you've put your finger on the heart of the problem.

    Here's Santi: This is why I think love is a better basis for ethical reasoning, not essences.…There shouldn't be, for example, a problem redirecting the use of an organ…if [such redirection is] oriented to love or human happiness.

    And there it is: Santi claims/wants to be able to tell what constitute love and human happiness without reference to any "essences" or "natures" that might (inconveniently) determine the genuine goods of the parties in question.

    I can't think of a quicker way to reduce love and happiness to matters of sheer pleasure.

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  101. So I'll take ear-to-orgasm pursuit as an obvious no-no for Thomists.

    And as for whales, they were once essentially classified as fish, as were beavers. Hmm.

    This is in Scientific American:

    "[I]n the 17th century, the Bishop of Quebec approached his superiors in the Church and asked whether his flock would be permitted to eat beaver meat on Fridays during Lent, despite the fact that meat-eating was forbidden. Since the semi-aquatic rodent was a skilled swimmer, the Church declared that the beaver was a fish."

    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/2013/05/23/once-upon-a-time-the-catholic-church-decided-that-beavers-were-fish/

    How certain are you that you've got the essence of marriage correct?

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  102. Look, in one of his poems, Wilhelm Shakespeare says "to be or not to be." Shakespeare was just relying on his friend Bayes in this case, saying the prior probability is high that some essences do not really exist (i.e., they are FAKE) while other essences do exist (i.e., they are REAL). Can we ignore The Barf on this pivotal issue? I don't think so, as we must orient ourselves to LOVE. We often forget that we pull that Wilhelm quote out of context, what he really said was: "Love means anything you want it to be (or not to be)." Conservatives, on the other hand, want to CONSERVE a FAKE essence of love, which evolution has proven to be demonstrably false. Oh, also: Michael Graziano.

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  103. "So I'll take ear-to-orgasm pursuit as an obvious no-no for Thomists."

    ??

    "And as for whales, they were once essentially classified as fish, as were beavers."

    …and now they're not. So much for If we think we've arrived at the absolute essence of a thing,…we're in danger of stopping the process of looking.

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  104. @Meta-Santi:

    And don't forget: cyborgs.

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  105. @ Santi

    I've never considered the issue, oddly enough. But okay. This is provisional, but if this use of the ear happens in the context of a sexual act essentially ordered towards procreation between husband and wife, I suppose it's not a "no-no".

    Also, model-dependent realism? Seriously?
    Okay, is model-dependent realism a "good fit" or an "essential fit" over reality?..
    Mr. Tarafella, you cannot have realism and general instrumentalism (which M-DR is, coupled with absurd scientism, also, possibly, subjective idealism?..) at the same time.

    I guess you have decided to abandon your praise of high-jacking natural ends/maintaining that this rape of natural ends is in fact a natural end, the highest of all.
    Which, I suppose, is a good thing.
    But retreating into incoherence is not necessitated by that courageous act.

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  106. @ Santi

    To clarify: a sexual act not interfered with, actually being directed to its natural end.

    To alleviate your concern for Catholics, beavers were classified as fish for the purposes of observance of dietary laws (!) in Quebec, at least in part because they were part of the diet of the indigenous population of the province even before their conversion to the Faith.
    I cannot help but commend your commitment to strict observance of fasts manifest in the seriousness with which you approach local Lenten provisions.


    @ Meta-Santi

    You raise a very important point. I need to think about it.

    Did not the same Wilhelm have the Countess say: "Love all, grayscale everything, leave unhigh-jacked the natural ends of none"?

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  107. Scott,

    …and now they're not. So much for If we think we've arrived at the absolute essence of a thing,…we're in danger of stopping the process of looking.

    Not to mention 'were classified as fish for lenten consumption purposes' is a non-sequitur here.

    But then, as is painfully obvious now, if the only way for anal sex to be considered moral is for 2 + 2 to = 3, then he's going to develop some very ... predictable thoughts about mathematics.

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  108. @Crude:

    But surely two plus two can be made to equal three by a sufficiently BIG BRAIN! All it has to do is hijack and repurpose two.

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  109. Georgy Mancz:

    You wrote: "[I]f this use of the ear happens in the context of a sexual act essentially ordered towards procreation between husband and wife, I suppose it's not a 'no-no'."

    Okay, groovy. That would have been a big thing preventing me from ever returning to the Catholic Church. : )

    I started, by the way, my religious education as a child attending Catholic masses every Sunday (as perhaps you might surmise from my Italian name). We had a very authoritarian priest who would embarrass and scold people who stood in the back, came in late, or otherwise looked to be sleeping in the pews, etc.

    His name was Father Alvarez (now passed away), and he was all business. He never smiled. I never forgot him. He was a tough cookie. My dad was a pretty slack Catholic at the time, and I had to drag him to mass on Sundays, and always with the intention of not being late. I feared that Father Alvarez would sass us.

    I've also known priests with more joyful temperaments. I know one from the Philippines that I have lunch with on occasion, and he seems to me a Gandhi figure. He has taken extraordinary risks for other people (he was once Muslim, and his family tried to kill him--and very nearly succeeded--when he converted). He lives like Christ in every way. He owns next to nothing, and is putting a number of students in the Philippines through college with funds he raises. The students he's putting through college are Muslim. He believes higher education is one road to peace between Muslim and Christian. An amazing person. And happy.

    I think that's part of what I mean by love, and expanding the circle of love.

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  110. Scott,

    Haha, no doubt.

    Evolution has clearly shown that numbers - by the way, a tool of oppression the Church has been using for centuries - can be whatever we want them to be. Did you know that famous math professors have been beaten at playing chess? Then how can you be sure that the essential nature of 2 makes it equivalent to 1 + 1? It could be apple pie for all we know.

    In light of all this, clearly we can have sex with space heaters, because our big brains have determined that to be love.

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  111. Scott: Think of all the babies and toddlers who have been persecuted throughout human history by being told that stuffing food in their ears was "no way to eat!”

    Y’all are being too limited by your Mediaeval hang-ups: we must engage with LOVE, and engagement requires a proposal, so my proposal — if I may be so modest — is that you eat the babies. Who doesn’t love babies? with their big juicy brains?? SCIENCE shows that they have the biggest brains of all, because infants have larger heads than adults. So quit being held hostage by your FAKE non-existent essences, and show a toddler some love. Stick it in your ear.

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  112. An orgasm is not like tripping over a curb while crossing a street. You usually need to go after it a bit.

    That can be the case, yes. You can also accidentally trigger orgasms. There are also (very emotionally devastating) physiological conditions in which people have repeated orgasms nonstop for hours.

    On the rest, as I said, the Thomist ethics identifies general principles. Some things happen to be obviously inconsistent with the general principles, or can be proven to be inconsistent with them. The rest is left to prudence.

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  113. Jeremy Taylor,

    "I don't use simply Platonist because that tends to be interpreted solely according to modern interpretations of Plato and Plotinus alone, at best."

    I'm finding this is a problem for philosophy in general, but especially classical philosophy and classical theism. It's nearly impossible to talk to some people about it, or share some of the best arguments for that matter, because people just don't understand the necessary terminology.

    "My knowledge of the philosophy of mathematics is limited, but I certainly subscribe to mathematical Platonism."

    I'm finding it hard not to myself.

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  114. @Crude:

    I'm reminded of the T-shirt that says "2 + 2 = 5 (for sufficiently large values of 2)." Who are Thomists to say otherwise?

    @Mr. Green:

    That was a swift engagement, but your modest proposal is certainly food for thought.

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  115. @Scott
    And don't forget: cyborgs.

    Not my cup of tea, but Ann seems to have done okay with her Romneybot v3.5.

    @Al quoting John Wright:

    It is not a serious argument to compare homosexual acts and orientation to bestiality, pedophilia, necrophilia, or sex with light sockets.

    In Anglo-american common law, except where overruled by statute, infertility is grounds for divorce.

    The reason it was/is considered a ground for divorce is because it is entirely unexpected by at least one of the people getting marriage. If they both expect infertility when entering the marriage it has the “essence” of being about intimate companionship and commitment and is in defiance of its procreative purpose. Wright’s imagination about her potential given some miracle or time machine or whatnot doesn’t change the fact that she is sterile. In the case of post-menopausal women this is a perfectly natural condition and cannot be truthfully described as a defect or disability.

    A woman is essentially female, that is, she is able to bear young unless she is unhealthy or maimed; a man with same sex attraction is essentially male, that is, he is able to father young unless he is unhealthy or maimed.

    And neither partner loses that individual ability because of their homosexuality, they only lose the ability to both be parents to any child brought into the union. Given the number of adopted children and stepchildren as well as infertile couples who receive donor sperm, eggs, or embryos this doesn’t even count as a relevant obstacle to having a family if they so choose.

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  116. It also not a serious argument to dismiss something as a serious argument without making a serious argument, if you get my drift.



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  117. It is not a serious argument to compare homosexual acts and orientation to bestiality, pedophilia, necrophilia, or sex with light sockets.

    Since Wright never does completely serious arguments, it wouldn't be surprising for his argument to include non-serious elements. However, this particular claim is simply wrong as a matter of principled discourse: any of these comparisons could obviously be a serious argument depending on the context and the principle of comparison. No one gets to ride arguments only as far as they feel like riding them. Certainly zoophiliacs, to take just one of the examples, actively argue that the same principles that apply in the case of homosexual acts apply in the case of zoophiliac ones. On the opposite side, most ethical strictures against homosexual acts have historically been geared not merely to homosexual acts but to a larger category of acts that did, in fact, include zoophiliac as well as homosexual acts, so it would be a quite reasonable question at every point to ask why the arguments for the one don't also apply to the other. And it is likewise a commonplace in the field of ethics that issues pertaining to both tend to run parallel; parity arguments are easy to build between the two. The close parallels can be fairly easily seen in practically any serious discussion of the ethics of zoophilia, e.g., Neil Levy's "What (if Anything) Is Wrong with Bestiality?"

    In short: the need to have the actual principles governing the alleged difference trumps any lazy attempt to try to gerrymander the discussion with an arbitrary standard of what is serious and what is not.

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  118. Greg: I don't think Santi is a troll. I do think he is sincere

    The one doesn’t necessarily follow from the other. There is a point at which continued refusal to address straightforward criticism belies any sincere attempt to argue in good faith. Unless of course you want to argue that he’s just really thick. I return to my concept of the “virtual troll”, who effects the same powers as a real troll, even though that may not be his subjective intent. If you know such an individual personally and can talk to him face to face, it may be worthwhile; but typing at him is unlikely to help.

    Frankly, your posts are germane and well-put, and I find myself in general agreement with them. However, there is a real danger in replying to rubbish — it implies that the rubbish is worth taking seriously, that the replies and disputations are serious objections that ought to be addressed. It’s like taking the trinket out of a box of Cracker Jacks to a jeweller to get it valued, or calling the police because somebody took your lunch out of the fridge at work.

    I don’t mind using bad comments to launch good conversations with others, and the un-serious responses at least have entertainment value; but trying to herd the mental cats we are faced with here wastes time (yours and ours), kills off productive discussions, and may even give the impression that the position you’re defending has met its match. Whether the problem is incompetence or malice I cannot say, but our interlocutor has a dreadful handicap, and the challenge of how to have a serious discussion needs to be settled before there is any point trying to engage in one. (As indicated, I doubt that can happen over the Internet, but that’s where it needs to start.) Some temptations should be resisted.

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  119. Crude: 'I have no essential nature!' he complains. Alright then: so much for complaining that you'll have to use your 'big brain' to engage in some self-control. Oh, you're complaining? Your essential nature isn't being violated: you have none, remember? You'll just have to deal with it.

    That’s an often-overlooked or ignored point: if you try to wriggle out from under reality, you can’t have whatever “human rights” or so forth, that you might care for. No formal causes, no humans; no final causes, no rights.

    On the other hand, I guess there are those who are aware of this and write it off as the cost of voluntaristic existentialism: better to reign as a cloud of particles than to serve as an actual substance.

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  120. "It also not a serious argument to dismiss something as a serious argument without making a serious argument, if you get my drift."

    If this is in reply to me - yes, I think I do, and I'm usually far too kind about it.

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  121. Did we ever figure out the problem of divine providence and human freedom?

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  122. >It is not a serious argument to compare homosexual acts and orientation to bestiality, pedophilia, necrophilia, or sex with light sockets.

    They are alike in essence in that they are representative of sex acts that violate the final causality of sex but I would grant you that morally & practically it is way better to live in a neighborhood filled with homosexuals then it is to live in one that had at least one zoophile, necrophile, pedophile and or some idiot who liked doing it with light sockets(since he is a fire hazard waiting to happen).

    The later sins are way more morally reprehensible then mere homosexuality but sin is sin. In essence a divorced remarried person whose previous marriage has not been found to be null is in the same boat as the homosexual living with his or her same sex lover.

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  123. Jeremy Taylor,

    I just realized it wasn't a reply to me. I should have read the most previous comments first. Nevermind.

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  124. Santi writes:

    "DNW:

    I did respond to Greg's question, but it's deep in this thread, or perhaps even in the last one, so I'll respond briefly here.

    Yes, I think there is a real world out there and that things can be said about it.

    I also think the universe is, but there is no one way the universe must be described. There are all sorts of ways for talking about the way things are. Some ways look to be better than others.

    I like very, very much Stephen Hawking's sensible suggestion of ..."


    Yeah, well, I was not asking Greg if you thought you lived in a dream world, or were a subjective idealist of some kind. I merely asked him if he had gotten an answer from you regarding his question. Greg had written:

    " Do you repudiate your previous claim that you are approximately 99% sure that "nature is completely without purpose or value"?"

    I, then remarked:

    "Greg thus asks a very specific question regarding one possible grounding for Santi's apparent demand of an associative toleration, and even validation, of homosexual practices.

    Presumably then, if you are to imply that a certain behavior can be assigned a place within the constellation of objective and intrinsic values, you must be willing to grant that there is such a thing as an intrinsic value in the first place.

    This issue was also clearly restated by Crude."

    Now, I think by the balance of your response here, you clearly demonstrate that you wish to evade the precise question as Greg formulated it while using [apparently] your own terminology.

    In other words, you seem to wish to evade the direct logical implications of a "nature ... completely without purpose or value" for a moral claims scheme relying upon an intrinsic human value standard.

    This doesn't mean of course that you cannot simply decide that tolerating annoying or unappealing or even counterproductive associations (from the point of view of subjective aims) is something that you are personally willing to do.

    The problem comes in when we find ourselves not only sharing a political space, but one in which the rules have increasingly been directed at redistributing the costs of individual autogenic health disorders, or personality problems, or mental deficits and the like, socially.

    My war Nazi fighting hero uncle and the father who gave me hundreds of acres of hunting land obviously mean a great deal to me no matter how enfeebled they become.

    On the other hand, I am not sure why I should care if whatshisnames' wheel chair topples into a ditch and he drowns in six inches of dirty water. It seems to me that there are plenty more like him where he came from.

    Compulsorily "increasing the circle" as you describe it has the practical effect of introducing objects into a once functioning class which present definitional and operational contradictions which eventually make the class notion itself absurd, and membership in any such absurdity pointless, or even harmful.

    Harmful, from a "subjective" point of view or interest of course.

    But you know, and will probably readily admit, that from a subjective point of view, a 30 year old father of 4 might feel, that kicking-in the old sagging face of Richard Rorty, and potentially saving on his taxes thereby, is a perfectly reasonable preference and option for him and his own flourishing; just as Rorty wishes to make inclusion within his circle - i.e., the circle of natural resources and people which he wishes to make ever more his kind's possession - an increasingly socially demanding proposition.

    Not that Rorty was advocating torchlight parades and social solidarity salutes. He would certainly be very offended at such a suggestion, and I think considered himself a kind of liberal, as he understood liberal.

    It's just that that definitional problem and its implications keeps cropping up.

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  125. "The reason it was/is considered a ground for divorce is because it is entirely unexpected by at least one of the people getting marriage. If they both expect infertility when entering the marriage it has the “essence” of being about intimate companionship and commitment and is in defiance of its procreative purpose."

    No, in the first instance both expect fertility because of what marriage is essentially. What they expected individually is irrelevant just as it would be if one or the other were diagnosed as infertile and yet managed to get pregnant while married nevertheless.

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  126. "And neither partner loses that individual ability because of their homosexuality, they only lose the ability to both be parents to any child brought into the union. Given the number of adopted children and stepchildren as well as infertile couples who receive donor sperm, eggs, or embryos this doesn’t even count as a relevant obstacle to having a family if they so choose."

    To your first point, that is precisely why we say that the relationship is infertile. Your alleged corollary doesn't from the first point, what follows is that these relationships are not intrinsically orientated towards family.

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  127. By the way, let's give credit where credit is due here.

    Although I had been speaking contemptuously of Rorty for some time over the last years, for completeness and critical concision Feser was there, actually here, well before.

    A really good post from this blog's archives:
    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-some-of-your-professors-see-you.html


    Feser highlights the infamous Rorty quote:


    " ' They will protest that these books are being jammed down their children’s throats. I cannot see how to reply to this charge without saying something like “There are credentials for admission to our democratic society, credentials which we liberals have been making more stringent by doing our best to excommunicate racists, male chauvinists, homophobes, and the like. You have to be educated in order to be a citizen of our society, a participant in our conversation, someone with whom we can envisage merging our horizons. So we are going to go right on trying to discredit you in the eyes of your children, trying to strip your fundamentalist religious community of dignity, trying to make your views seem silly rather than discussable. We are not so inclusivist as to tolerate intolerance such as yours.”

    I have no trouble offering this reply, since I do not claim to make the distinction between education and conversation on the basis of anything except my loyalty to a particular community, a community whose interests required re-educating the Hitler Youth in 1945 and required re-educating the bigoted students of Virginia in 1993. I don’t see anything herrschaftsfrei about my handling of my fundamentalist students. Rather, I think those students are lucky to find themselves under the benevolent Herrschaft of people like me, and to have escaped the grip of their frightening, vicious, dangerous parents. It seems to me that I am just as provincial and contextualist as the Nazi teachers who made their students read Der Stürmer; the only difference is that I serve a better cause. I come from a better ' "


    That alone is worth the price of admission to this, Feser's, blog.

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  128. "On the other hand, I guess there are those who are aware of this and write it off as the cost of voluntaristic existentialism: better to reign as a cloud of particles than to serve as an actual substance.

    October 29, 2014 at 11:50 PM"


    That's not too bad.

    You could probably rework it into almost bumper-sticker quality mockery.

    Trouble is the mocked - who as a class claim to be the most ironic of critics - would probably not get the irony.

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  129. Irish Thomist asked me to define love. Love is what you bring into your circle of concern. You value it for your own happiness and the happiness of the other. It's what you've found a way to WORK WITH rather than wall yourself off from, marginalize, and demonize--and this thereby evokes the better angels of your nature. It creates a virtuous cycle of ever greater peace, cooperation, and tolerance in the world.

    Pope Francis tried to move in the direction of love with gays recently, attempting to "welcome" them into fellowship, and to recognize their "gifts," and this received vigorous resistance from those focused, not on love, but on fear of God's anger at humans not using the essential forms of their organs in accordance with their primary functions.

    But Francis was trying to avoid Thomas Aquinas's error with the Jews, which proved a devastating and historic failure of love. Aquinas could not work with Jews as insiders within Christendom, but determined to treat them as outsiders and outside of God's circle of grace. He referred to Jews specifically as "outsiders" and advised the Countess of Flanders in a 1271 letter to continue an exclusionary policy toward them: "[I]t is good that Jews throughout your province are compelled to wear a sign distinguishing them from Christians. The reply to this is plain: that, according to a statute of the general Council, Jews of each sex in all Christian provinces, and all the time, should be distinguished from other people by some clothing."

    This custom of course blocked assimilation of Jews in Europe. It was a historic "love fail" in the heart of Christian Europe. The Jews' fellowship and gifts were pushed away by Christians, and the cycle of the worse angels of human nature came to the fore and proceeded from thence.

    Distinctions were being made that blocked the workings of love.

    Thus when we focus on something other than the circle of love in formulating our ethics, we run the risk of failing to reality test, and of failing to respond with a sense of proportion.

    So it is with gay marriage. There is the danger among contemporary Thomists of straining out the gnat to swallow the camel; of making distinctions that block the working of love. By focusing on essentialism as opposed to love, one risks evoking the worse angels of human nature with regard to a whole class of people.

    This is potentially a far worse sin than any that married gays or lesbians might (supposedly) commit in the bedroom.

    http://www.ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/primary-texts-from-the-history-of-the-relationship/268-aquinas

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  130. From the OP: ‘Society once thought’
    This is neither a moral nor rational defense of anything. Denial of women’s suffrage, denial of the right to form trade unions, denial of minimum wage laws, serfdom, slavery even human sacrifice have all been closely held as essential for the preservation of society. The sorry fact is, all such claims had a degree of validity in support of their (if localized in time and geography) legitimacy.
    To quote out of context from the OP: ‘… their defeat is widely regarded both as a moral imperative and the inevitable next stage in the progress of civilization.’
    [To continue, but back to the context of same-sex unions]; ‘… most prominent conservatives don’t even bother to address the fundamental moral question anymore’ – Because they know they haven’t a sound argument (which, admittedly, is not the same as there is no sound argument. It is just that most prominent conservatives don’t have one!)
    The social, cultural and, yes, moral strictures against homosexuals are obsolete. Lying, infidelity, fornication are destructive of families, not homosexuals or same-sex unions, and therefore more appropriate and productive targets of restriction. Infanticide is destructive and dehumanizing for the perpetrators as well as the victims, though it too has been practiced in all human societies. Tradition of itself does not make for a moral good.
    I suspect as well that upon inspection, remarriage is likely to reinforce families and society over divorcees remaining alone. Single parent families are definitely not optimum for children and punishing people for falling outside some arbitrary norm holds no moral weight.

    If Natural Law is to claim or hold any legitimacy, it needs to embrace a more expansive understanding of nature.
    Sex for procreation alone works fine for insects, most reptiles and perhaps a few solitary mammals (tigers and bears come to mind) but is central to much of the bonding and nurturing required for social animals particularly humans.
    A focus exclusively on ‘the family’ as most natural law arguments appear to me to do would be fine in a discussion of Neanderthals who appear to have only their families as their immediate community, but Modern Humans (the entire population for the last 30,000 years) depend for their survival on a much larger human community and it is the thriving of that community which must be considered. Not all are butchers, not all bakers, not all candlestick makers. Without sufficient diversity, society will wither and fail.
    Pomp and ceremony are intimate features of all manner of human endeavor because they create or engender a high degree of significance and legitimacy to the related function or institution. Allowing same sex marriage, even encouraging gays to marry will do much to engage them productively into society. Marriage will help discourage fornication as well.

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  131. Irish Thomist asked me to define love. Love is what you bring into your circle of concern. You value it for your own happiness and the happiness of the other. It's what you've found a way to WORK WITH rather than wall yourself off from, marginalize, and demonize--and this thereby evokes the better angels of your nature. It creates a virtuous cycle of ever greater peace, cooperation, and tolerance in the world.

    In other words, you have no definition of love in your sense; none of these are defining characteristics, since they are all extrinsic and relative to the conditions of the time.

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  132. Incidentally, Santi, I find it amusing that you didn't quote the very next sentence in the letter to the Countess of Flanders: "This is also mandated to them by their own law, namely that they make for themselves fringes on the four corners of their cloaks, through which they are distinguished from others."

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  133. "If Natural Law is to claim or hold any legitimacy, it needs to embrace a more expansive understanding of nature.
    Sex for procreation alone works fine for insects, most reptiles and perhaps a few solitary mammals (tigers and bears come to mind) but is central to much of the bonding and nurturing required for social animals particularly humans.
    A focus exclusively on ‘the family’ as most natural law arguments appear to me to do would be fine in a discussion of Neanderthals who appear to have only their families as their immediate community, but Modern Humans (the entire population for the last 30,000 years) depend for their survival on a much larger human community and it is the thriving of that community which must be considered. Not all are butchers, not all bakers, not all candlestick makers. Without sufficient diversity, society will wither and fail.
    Pomp and ceremony are intimate features of all manner of human endeavor because they create or engender a high degree of significance and legitimacy to the related function or institution. Allowing same sex marriage, even encouraging gays to marry will do much to engage them productively into society. Marriage will help discourage fornication as well.

    October 30, 2014 at 10:01 AM"


    This is a facetious pseudo-quote, I take it?

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  134. DNW:

    Referring to Stephen Hawking you wrote the following: "I am not sure why I should care if whatshisnames' wheel chair topples into a ditch and he drowns in six inches of dirty water."

    We evolved as tribal animals. I can understand how your circle of concern might only extend so far. You might even say that our tribalism is something essential about us. But I also know that you have a big brain that can hijack essentialist tribal impulses to other purposes, and with a work of imagination you might find your circle of concern extending even to Stephen Hawking.

    If God is love, then part of the work of life is (arguably) to reach a place where that circle of love is expanding in oneself, not contracting. And if God doesn't exist, it still makes pragmatic sense to expand the circle of love for greater peace, tolerance, and cooperation among humans while we're alive.

    Definitions matter, but definitions, by the way they include and exclude, shouldn't function as provocations to self-righteousness, demonization, and outrage that then blocks love. And religion shouldn't function as something for providing cover to callousness and cruelty.

    Wherever religion is drawing us away from an expanding circle of love, something is wrong. I'm not trying to sacrifice truth, individualism, freedom, property ownership, or independence to freeloaders. I get your outrage. People have to come toward each other from both directions, and with a sense of respect, dignity, and equality. Nobody should be forced. Respect for conscience dictates that people should not be forced.

    But somebody also has to go first. Francis, in trying to "welcome" gays and recognize their "gifts," took a step forward. And gay Catholics who want to marry as opposed to just sleeping around are saying, "We want some formal structure to the expressions of our relationships and sexual desires." That's a step as well.

    Working with gay people--dialoguing with them, welcoming them, etc.--is work. It's the work of love. Imagine how different the history of Europe might have gone had Thomas advocated the assimilation of Jews into Christendom, not via conversion, but simply in fellowship, welcoming them with equality and noticing their gifts?

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  135. Brandon,

    Obviously Thomas was justifying his callousness and "love-fail" toward Jews by basically saying, "Hey, they have distinguishing manners of dress anyway, so it's okay to force on them an insignia of our own control."

    The force of the quote I offered is thus not weakened by the additional sentence, but actually illustrates the question-begging entailed in Thomas's advice. If Jews are already distinguishable by dress, why heighten distinctions even MORE?

    Clearly, the purpose of Christians marking Jews off with a yellow star was to assure that if Jews wanted to ever pass as non-Jews they would be breaking the law. Thomas was boxing Jews in. If the Jewish community, or individual Jews, were to ever seek greater assimilation by dressing like Christians, the required yellow star would prevent them from doing so.

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  136. No, not obviously. He was simply pointing to a standard medieval practice, in which religious subgroups were governed by their own laws in matters not directly related to the necessities of the governing authority; the governing authority, in turn, would enforce the local laws of the religious subgroup where they did not directly interfere with the laws of the province or kingdom. This is, in fact, the way it is still done in many Muslim countries, and you can see the traces of this even in Europe in the way that Germany, for instance, handles the church tax. It is also usually thought to be a major reason why Margaret of Flanders asked for advice on these matters -- she wasn't sure where the line was to be drawn. So again we see Santi reading his own issues into texts regardless of the actual evidence.

    However, both the original and your reply show again your failure to think through your own argument. Your explicit claim against Thomas on this point was, and I quote: "This custom of course blocked assimilation of Jews in Europe." However, as Thomas notes, Jewish law requires the same thing that Christian law at the time did: that Jews distinguish themselves by clothing, and thus would have done the same thing to block assimilation. It was at the best disingenuous to stop the quotation where you did, and an example of irresponsible quote-mining at its worst.

    (Notice, incidentally, that Thomas does not, contrary to your claim, say that they should be distinguished "MORE"; he simply notes that both Christian and Jewish law require a differentiating sign, and the only example of such a sign that he gives is the Jewish one. The council to which he refers also only requires that Jews be distinguished in dress according to Jewish law.)

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  137. Hi. I'm Meta-Meta-Santi.

    I very much agree with what I'd call Santi-dependent ethical realism.
    Here are the basics:
    1) In SD-ER by "essences"/"natural ends" we mean any essence/natural end Santi infers Thomists propose irrespective of whether they do in fact do propose these or not.
    2) From the fact that "humans" have BIG BRAINS, we SD-ERists infer (don't ask how) that hi-jacking natural ends (see above) is the inviolable natural end.
    3) Love is what Santi says it is. Also, Santi is infallible, especially in his interpretation of any cited source.
    4) From what has already been revealed by him, love is chiefly manifested in praising and engaging in perverse sex and not being inclusive enough (the needed proportion is determined as per 4).
    5) Not conforming with 4) is called "love fail". Going against Santi's (admittedly mysterious) notion of love and good is "love fail" and is callous. Other love fails: being self-righteous (though not necessarily, pretty much anything other than being Santi-righteous).
    6) Rather obviously, the purpose of life is expanding Santi's circle of love by hijacking all possible natural ends. Preference is to be given to sex.


    P.S.
    Also, the universe is purposeless when Santi says so, but it is purposeful when Santi agrees - hijacking natural purposes as a purpose and the purposes to be hijacked have to be there.

    Perhaps it needs a more through exposition.
    But that should be enough to get you cruel Thomists started.

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  138. Thanks, Meta-Meta-Santi.
    A fascinating perspective.

    I think you meant to write "being inclusive enough" instead of "not being inclusive enough", though.

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  139. " Working with gay people--dialoguing with them, welcoming them, etc.--is work. It's the work of love. Imagine how different the history of Europe might have gone had Thomas advocated the assimilation of Jews into Christendom, not via conversion, but simply in fellowship, welcoming them with equality and noticing their gifts?
    October 30, 2014 at 10:35 AM "


    Santi,

    I should have made it clear to you that I am not coming at this from a Catholic faith perspective.

    The language of what is apparently the modern Church and which you use, is pretty much unintelligible to me as it seems to be leveraging off of quasi-religious terminology which is undercut by the very philosophical premises which supposedly ground its deployment in the first place.

    Now I will grant you that many people visit Feser's blog, and it is probably too much to assume that everyone who saws out "Hearts and Flowers" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6uS5xPWfxPY#t=24 on his communitarian fiddle, simultaneously is a disciple of Hume.

    But whether you are a fact value dichotomy man or not, Greg and Crude asked a question which was precise, penetrating, logically germane, and for all of your responses, seems as yet to be addressed directly and categorically.

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  140. @ Santi

    "Love is what you bring into your circle of concern."

    Suppose we have two people whose "circles of love" are disjoint. By your definition, all the items in both circles of love are love. More generally, if we take the union over all circles of love (there are as many circles as there are persons, so around 7 billion such circles), any item in the resulting union must be classed as love. This, of course, would include rape, since a rapist "concerns" himself with the act of rape. He doesn't "wall [himself] off from, marginalize, and demonize" the act of rape, so we know it must be included in his circle of love. Therefore, rape is love.

    In other words, your definition of love is so uselessly amorphous that I will not be putting it into my own "circle of concern." Therefore, according to my own subjective "circle of concern" love is not love.

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  141. By the way, and just to get out on the table what is already clear to most here, what Santi is arguing for is not simply toleration, but participatory affirmation.

    You know, you as a juror and citizen participate in affirming that is is of critical social interest how Chuck and Bob split up the china, and who gets the cat.

    This is a common enough observation recently, but it needs to be repeated.

    The left seems to assume some mysterious "value" to "evolution" as if in contradiction to everything it usually preaches, it is known to be morally directional, permanent, and all "sentients" are morally obligated to sacrifice themselves and their progeny on the altar of inclusion: in what is otherwise declared a purposeless existence.

    At any rate, as is abundantly clear to everyone commenting here, the the demand is that you adopt the others' life strategy because ... well ...

    Well, because they want you too, and it makes them feel good. Even though their feelings are on their own take, ultimately purposeless and meaningless, and your doing so has no assurance much less guarantee, of any positive outcome for those of you who are actually accommodating the nuisance.

    At least with the Traditional Catholics, you got promised something worthwhile for all your trouble.

    Now, we have Santi's wager: you pay for annoyance - to no good end - and are rewarded with more of the same so long as you live.

    But maybe there is a God, and your misery won't be a completely counterproductive waste of time. But probably not.

    What a deal!

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  142. Brandon,

    It's pretty clear that you'll go through a good deal of pretzel twisting to avoid casting any blame whatsoever on Thomas for the subsequent fate of Jews in Europe. The Jews didn't want to assimilate. They brought their isolation on themselves by being, you know, proudly different, with or without Thomas, blah, blah, blah.

    Did they choose to live in the ghettos as well? That was the next step after Thomas' clothing marker. Was Christian antisemitism in Europe throughout the Middle Ages an actual phenomenon, or is that an aspersion cast on the height of Christian history in Europe?

    What it seems you would at least acknowledge is that Thomas had influence, and if he'd written to the Countess to fellowship with Jews, "welcome" them, value them, and recognize their "gifts," that might have helped the subsequent course of European history into another (better) direction.

    Expanding the circle of love matters.

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  143. I wish to congratulate everyone here for refraining from what I could not ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jJ98qac2UIM#t=13

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  144. Back to the outright lying again, I see, Santi.

    Lie #1 : "It's pretty clear that you'll go through a good deal of pretzel twisting to avoid casting any blame whatsoever on Thomas for the subsequent fate of Jews in Europe."

    Show me precisely where I stated this.

    Lie #2 : "The Jews didn't want to assimilate."

    Show me precisely where I stated this.

    Lie #3 : " They brought their isolation on themselves by being, you know, proudly different, with or without Thomas,"

    Show me precisely where I stated this.

    I was, as anyone can see, addressing a specific exegetical claim you made -- as usual, it was a false claim based on made-up interpretation of a text, one that is contrary to anything we actually know about the text. So here we add yet one more item to the list of evidence, which the past three comments thread have made very long, that Santi is irresponsible in argument, intellectually dishonest, and morally hypocritical.

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  145. DNW:

    You wrote: "[W]e have Santi's wager: you pay for annoyance - to no good end - and are rewarded with more of the same so long as you live. But maybe there is a God, and your misery won't be a completely counterproductive waste of time. But probably not. What a deal!"

    I must confess, that was pretty accurate and made me smile.

    My only qualification: I do think there are pragmatic reasons for expanding the circle of love that transcends annoyance (even if God doesn't exist). Maybe, just maybe, you'll actually come to LIKE one of those gay people, and maybe, just maybe, they'll do something good for you that you weren't anticipating. Maybe they won't just function for you as a freeloader on your hard-earned resources and an annoyance on your psyche. But whether God does or does not exist, maybe you don't want to make that bet.

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  146. Brandon:

    Do your own eyes see what you write? You said Jews themselves would have blocked their own assimilation. It wasn't Thomas' fault. Here's what you wrote. I'll leave it to you to explain what you really, really meant:

    "Your explicit claim against Thomas on this point was, and I quote: "This custom of course blocked assimilation of Jews in Europe." However, as Thomas notes, Jewish law requires the same thing that Christian law at the time did: that Jews distinguish themselves by clothing, and THUS WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING TO BLOCK ASSIMILATION."

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  147. It is especially low that you accuse me of arguing something when the point of my comment, which was explicitly stated, was to point out that your stupid argument commits you to a stupid claim because you haven't thought through your argument like a rational person. I am in no way to be blamed for the fact that you are not intelligent enough to come up with an argument that cannot be coherently or reasonably maintained in the face of evidence that was available the entire time. Your argument commits you to the claim because you were stupid enough to make an argument that given the evidence would require parity. And, again, I explicitly pointed out that the problem was that you had not thought through your argument.

    So chalk one up to Santi yet again being intellectually irresponsible and dishonest.

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  148. Does that sound right? If Christians didn't force everybody Jewish, not just Jewish men when doing business, to bear a yellow star, do you think Jews would have done it themselves? And maintained the practice for any considerable historical time? Would they never have wanted to pass in society as part of the "in crowd" without attention drawn to them? We're talking every man, woman, and child wearing a badge all the time. You know, to make sure Christians were aware, if they were in any doubt, that the person they were seeing on the street as a Jew.

    I think it's far, far better for society that this dynamic of exclusion not go on with regard to gay people. We know the history of this sort of exclusion, and how the human psyche reacts to it. We don't need to keep it going with regard to the gay community. It's why Francis' move to "welcome" and embrace fellowship and the "gifts" of gay people is important.

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  149. And yet again, we see Santi going off on a rant against a fictional version of someone's argument that he made up in his mind.

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  150. "And yet again, we see Santi going off on a rant against a fictional version of someone's argument that he made up in his mind."

    In your experience, how many more threads are going to go on like this?

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  151. "I think it's far, far better for society that this dynamic of exclusion not go on with regard to gay people."

    LOL. Someone get a care pack ready for Apple CEO Tim Cook, stat.

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  152. Hi Ed and other Catholics and Christians that post on Ed's blog:

    If you're not familiar Hugo Schwyzer has fallen on some pretty hard times in his life.
    You don't need to look too far to see the things that get thrown out at him (from people who once were sympathizers with him) as well as the things that have happened to him (with respects to mental health).

    If you get a chance please pray for peace in the life of Hugo Schwyzer.

    God bless.

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  153. "I think it's far, far better for society that this dynamic of exclusion not go on with regard to gay people."

    So that'll be one NO vote on the question of forcing them to wear rainbow-colored stars, then.

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  154. I used to come here for serious discussion but now whenever I turn up Santi's there talking shit, pontificating, and generally embarrassing him/herself.

    Is this some kind of gnu strategy to get folk to walk away from otherwise-serious discussion?

    I want the old combox back - this is so tiresome.

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  155. "[T]his is so tiresome."

    Agreed on all points.

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  156. @Anonymous:

    "I used to come here for serious discussion but now whenever I turn up Santi's there talking shit, pontificating, and generally embarrassing him/herself."

    Isn't this Santi just expanding his circle of love?

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  157. Santi Tafarella said...

    DNW:

    You wrote: "[W]e have Santi's wager: you pay for annoyance - to no good end - and are rewarded with more of the same so long as you live. But maybe there is a God, and your misery won't be a completely counterproductive waste of time. But probably not. What a deal!"

    I must confess, that was pretty accurate and made me smile."


    Well good. I got a laugh while accurately describing, and you got a smile out of reading what I had described, and unburdened yourself through an act of confession.


    " My only qualification: I do think there are pragmatic reasons for expanding the circle of love that transcends annoyance (even if God doesn't exist)."


    Yeah, I think I saw some French caveman movie like that: where the prejudiced cavemen died off starving in the snow, while the welcoming cavemen got all the benefits of the latest agricultural and medical techniques and so forth, and were thus able to hold hands and dance merrily around their fires evermore. Until eventually they emerged marching in linked-armed solidarity down the Champs-Élysées as the libertine socialist apex of humanity they represent today.


    " Maybe, just maybe, you'll actually come to LIKE one of those gay people, and maybe, just maybe, they'll do something good for you that you weren't anticipating."

    You mean like paint my fence for free?

    Now just to be clear, I'm not denying the potential social utility of a limited number of pet-shop boys, flower arrangers, or State Department niche seekers of the type who naturally gravitate to caucusing in the kitchen with Aunt Edna and cousin Lucy. I just don't see how legally mandated respect for the sexual absurdity that is imagined to be linked to such impulses, follows.

    There should be a pill or something to correct it before long anyway. If therapeutic abortions don't do it sooner.


    "Maybe they won't just function for you as a freeloader on your hard-earned resources and an annoyance on your psyche. "

    Resources are not generally spoken of as earned, they are purchased, or used or accumulated. Access to them is developed or earned. That's probably what you mean.

    Homosexuals - of the kind we are referring to here - seem to see non-homosexuals as resources upon which they have a right to draw for the furtherance and validation of their peculiar behaviors. I don't see how they have, as practicing homosexuals per se, earned it.

    At any rate your coerced quid pro quo framing would not be a problem if it weren't politically enabled in the first place, now would it.

    I think we agree here that if they staked no political claims to our attention and interpersonal sacrifice there would in fact be little reason to pay any attention; unless you were a Catholic and disturbed at the prospect of them spending an eternity in Hell. Until that is, a this-worldly, socially destructive, and tax wasting epidemic like AIDS or something broke out. As it has happened in the past.


    "But whether God does or does not exist, maybe you don't want to make that bet.
    October 30, 2014 at 12:16 PM "



    Well, if God is the kind of Laissez-faire kind of Deity you imagine, it probably would not matter either way, would it.

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  158. " grodrigues said...

    @Anonymous:

    "I used to come here for serious discussion but now whenever I turn up Santi's there talking shit, pontificating, and generally embarrassing him/herself."

    Isn't this Santi just expanding his circle of love?

    October 30, 2014 at 1:45 PM"




    Has no one other than Grodrigues and myself an appreciation for the comic relief he provides?

    That, said, I've probably missed many of the last posts and so would not have noticed if it had become wearisome over the last months.

    If that is the case, I apologize.

    Sort of.

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  159. @DNW:

    "Well, if God is the kind of Laissez-faire kind of Deity you imagine…"

    Imagine is exactly the right word here. If this discussion has been infertile, it's largely because of Santi's inability to conceive.

    "Has no one other than Grodrigues and myself an appreciation for the comic relief he provides?"

    Sure, up to a point. But he's managed to throw at least three threads entirely off-track now and it's getting old.

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  160. @ Mr Green

    The one doesn’t necessarily follow from the other.

    I agree. I do not believe that Santi is a troll, but since I made that previous comment, all of the evidence that I have plugged into my Bayesian calculus has rendered the proposition "Santi is sincere" incredibly implausible.

    Frankly, your posts are germane and well-put, and I find myself in general agreement with them. However, there is a real danger in replying to rubbish — it implies that the rubbish is worth taking seriously, that the replies and disputations are serious objections that ought to be addressed.

    Again, I agree. Santi exhibits severe intellectual vice. Sometimes I give an argument against one of his planes. I even preface it explicitly by saying that it is an argument. Often it is not even an argument from the Thomist position but rather disputes the consistency of his view. But he almost always changes the subject, and later on gets around to repeating the same points without taking account of the argument.

    And this phenomenon is by no means specific to me.

    Then there is the sad quote-mining. Santi will pull a quote from any author that he thinks supports his view (i.e. Jesus) despite countervailing evidence. He'll also pull a quote from any author and place it in whatever context he thinks most appropriate, even if that quote is the only thing he has read by the author and he is speaking with people who know what they're talking about. Related is the vagueness of his "orientation to love," which he fancies is consistent with the Christian understanding of love because he has given it the same name.

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  161. For something to flourish is for it to fulfil or realise its Nature. But what is it precisely to fulfil the Telos of Rationality? If to fulfil our Nature is to fulfil the ends of our bodily organs then does all the Species Difference contribute consist in an awareness of our ‘being good’? Surely the contemplation of the highest good, which is God, is the telos of rationality as Aristotle understood it in the famous passage from the Ethics were he extolls men to make the immortal part of their soul as like the Deity as possible? We need not go into my pet-peeve about Natural and Supernatural knowledge but surely even on Thomas' ground human realisation has to look beyond the world?

    @Scott,

    Yes, there's a predictable pattern isn't there - about thirty on topic or at least related to topic posts by other blog readers then a three hundred plus posting war with Santi over the exact same topics as we've gone over in the past. Having said that I much prefer discussing gay marriage and the possible metaphysics of Love, if only because these things could be potentially interesting if the all disputants had relevant background info (or were interested in learning it), than the usual warmed over Logical Positivism, Falsificationism and Eliminativism.

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  162. Sometimes I give an argument against one of his planes.

    I suppose that I meant 'point' and not 'plane'. A little too much math in the last 24 hours.

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  163. Scott said...

    " @DNW:

    "Well, if God is the kind of Laissez-faire kind of Deity you imagine…"

    Imagine is exactly the right word here. If this discussion has been infertile, it's largely because of Santi's inability to conceive.

    "Has no one other than Grodrigues and myself an appreciation for the comic relief he provides?"

    Sure, up to a point. But he's managed to throw at least three threads entirely off-track now and it's getting old.
    October 30, 2014 at 1:57 PM "





    In thinking seriously about it for a moment, I guess that it's pretty obvious to everyone by now, that it's nearly impossible to have a precising and on point discussion with the type.

    We could easily make a list of the reasons: all, or most, having to do with the fact that they wish to insist that words have either no, or any meaning at all, while engaging in "arguments" using words.

    We recognize it as a charade. They or their philosophical Hierarchs and heresiarchs admit it is; and as such, just a form of social warfare waged by other means than violence. He who babbles most energetically, and persistently, and gives away the most public money, wins.

    Reason cast aside, the law of noncontradiction ignored or denied, Feelings, nothing more than Feelings ...

    Yeah, it does have that deja vu atmosphere, doesn't it.



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  164. @ Daniel

    Well, if the telos of the intellect is truth, it would include God as unlimited Truth. When it comes to the will, I'd rather simply link G-L 's "Reality" (which you most probably are familiar with, of course): http://www.thesumma.info/reality/reality46.php

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  165. "Meta-Santi." Translation: I've generated my own language for talking about Thomism. (Some would regard that as a compliment.)

    As for thread diversion. Hello? I'm the efficient cause for the "Nudge nudge, wink wink" post in the first place, obviously. Feser rarely addresses the issue of homosexuality quite so directly. The fact that he did so here was clearly a product of the dust-up from the previous thread or two, combined with the recent Francis comments on "welcoming" gays into fellowship and affirming their "gifts." The pope and I are what caused Feser to actually address the issue.

    That's a reasonable conclusion to draw from the appearance of this post after a vigorous discussion of the matter in the previous two posts. In fact, I directly appealed to Feser to come out in favor of gay marriage from a Thomistic viewpoint. I basically take his blog post as a response to that Pepsi challenge.

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  166. @ Santi

    You exhibit more of the vices I mentioned above.

    I'm the efficient cause for the "Nudge nudge, wink wink" post in the first place, obviously. Feser rarely addresses the issue of homosexuality quite so directly.

    Don't feel too important. There was this little thing, the Synod on the Family, that Catholics in general have been writing quite a lot about.

    Recall early in the thread that I pointed out the irrelevance of arguments for or against homosexual activity to this post; it's about what public statements about sin imply even if they do not logically entail.

    combined with the recent Francis comments on "welcoming" gays into fellowship and affirming their "gifts."

    You mean the interim report for the Synod, the language of which was overturned? Also you are referring to this pope, correct?

    More selective (mis)quotation from Santi. Then there is the fact that popes have encouraged Catholics to welcome those with homosexual tendencies for quite some time now...

    I basically take his blog post as a response to that Pepsi challenge.

    Not to deflate your self-importance too much, but if Feser were responding to you, don't you think he would, say, at least address the same issues and dispute your points, even if he does not mention you by name? This post takes as a premise what Feser has argued elsewhere about homosexuality, which is what you are disputing.

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  167. "The pope and I are what caused Feser to actually address the issue."

    Likewise, JFK and I are what caused NASA to get busy on the moon landing.

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  168. @ Scott

    So, I glanced at the "Could a theist deny PSR?" thread.

    Your point is taken.

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  169. John West,

    In your experience, how many more threads are going to go on like this?

    It varies considerably. A lot of people come here, pick a fight, and run away fairly quickly, complaining on other blogs about how unpleasant everyone is here; since it's not exactly a secret that the discussion here is fairly rough and intense, they're a little like people who join a boxing club then complain that someone punched them in the face. (If they stayed around a little longer they might discover that the range of people here is quite considerable, and that while there are those like myself who will go fisticuffs if you really want to press it, there are others, more irenic, who are here mostly for the mental exercise and the topics, and if you don't go looking for a fight, you'll get some vigorous and occasionally intense argument, but no brawl.) Those are usually people used to hanging out with people who agree them, or finding easy targets and shooting fish in a barrel, and so they can't handle people showing them a point of view in which they are not especially rational. I think it's fairly clear that Santi's not in this group; as his most recent comment at 2:56 shows, his self-regard is too extensive to crack so easily.

    Others hang around for a while, derailing practically every thread; it's a reason why so many of those who have been here a while are so impatient with people trying to force threads in the direction they want: it's a common problem that ruins things for everyone. Discussions range far and wide here, but when things are left to themselves, it grows naturally out of the topic. The recent thread discussion on how to interpret Banezian claims was like that -- while itself far from the topic of the post, this was only because it discussed a particular point made in a particular argument by Torley that was itself entirely on-topic. But there are regular influxes of people who apparently think everything has to be about their pet topics. These vary considerably. Some fizzle swiftly; others last a while. A few here and there settle down and actually contribute something respectable occasionally. It's impossible to tell which will be which.

    Santi is unusually inclined to flood the thread with comments, but we've had worse derailers. My vote for the worst derailer was a commenter named J, a few years back, who had an extraordinary knack for getting things wrong -- some of his comments were just masterpieces of wrongness, with something provably wrong in literally every sentence.

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  170. I'm the efficient cause for the "Nudge nudge, wink wink" post in the first place.

    The only interest in reading Santi is to see if he can ever write something that 1) makes sense and 2) doesn't mangle someone else's philosophy.

    Not yet. Feser is the efficient cause of this post because, well, he wrote it. But maybe this is Feser's way of confirming my theory that Santi is actually Feser torturing us until we finally realize the foolishness of feeding trolls. Then Santi would be the efficient cause.

    How's that for putting my big brain to work?

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  171. @David T:

    "But maybe this is Feser's way of confirming my theory that Santi is actually Feser torturing us until we finally realize the foolishness of feeding trolls."

    Would that it were so! Unfortunately there seems to be a real Santi Tafarella who, for the most part, is just pasting his blog posts into these threads. I'm afraid even a brain as big as yours won't be sufficiently large to hijack and repurpose him as Ed's sock puppet.

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  172. Brandon,

    So that's what to expect then.

    Thanks.

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  173. "Unfortunately there seems to be a real Santi Tafarella who, for the most part, is just pasting his blog posts into these threads."

    It all makes sense now.

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  174. @Brandon
    However, this particular claim is simply wrong as a matter of principled discourse: any of these comparisons could obviously be a serious argument depending on the context and the principle of comparison.

    If you are willing to throw all distinctions out the window I would agree. Until then, not so much. Levy’s limited argument fails because he only looks at whether harm is done to the target. Pedophilia and impaired consent sex are immoral not simply because of their effects on the target but also because of their effects on the exploiter. That’s the problem when you make any move to disqualify informed consent for sex; it effectively becomes a defense for a rape mentality. Levy also states that bestiality does not engage human excellence but threatens it and it is important to keep a social taboo against it. So obviously these are the exact same contexts and principles used by gay marriage proponents.

    No one gets to ride arguments only as far as they feel like riding them.

    Except for Wright apparently.

    @dover_beach
    What they expected individually is irrelevant just as it would be if one or the other were diagnosed as infertile and yet managed to get pregnant while married nevertheless.

    Yet infertility is considered grounds for divorce. By what thinking does this become a proper basis for marriage if the only purpose for marriage is procreative?

    Your alleged corollary doesn't from the first point, what follows is that these relationships are not intrinsically orientated towards family.

    The corollary is that these relationships are equivalently ordered towards family as any other infertile couple. If heterosexual infertile couples conceive with outside help or even adopt a child that doesn't prevent them from raising a family.

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  175. @Step2:

    "The corollary is that these relationships are equivalently ordered towards family as any other infertile couple."

    But the "equivalently" is just what doesn't follow. Even if we grant that same-sex relationships are, or can be, ordered toward family, they're not as ordered toward family as any other infertile couple. An infertile male/female couple is ordered toward family by nature even if that nature isn't and can't be fully expressed; a same-sex couple is ordered toward family by accident, if at all. (Don't confuse this with the claim that the individual members of the couple aren't by nature oriented toward family. The couple isn't.)

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  176. @Scott

    Would that it were so! Unfortunately there seems to be a real Santi Tafarella who, for the most part, is just pasting his blog posts into these threads. I'm afraid even a brain as big as yours won't be sufficiently large to hijack and repurpose him as Ed's sock puppet.

    Just as well. If Feser had this much time to spare in a combox for one silly lesson, while he could be hastening his book on natural philosophy, I would be deeeeply disappointed.

    In other news, I came across this in Santi's bio:
    "I teach writing and literature at Antelope Valley College in California."

    Is it wrong of me to say that I would actually love to be in one of those classes? Imagine listening to representations of classical writers that no one else have, or ever will, hear.

    Like - was Shakespeare really writing science fiction? Was Dante Alighieri's Inferno really an erotic novel? 50 shades of Hell?

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  177. No, the other way around. Saving things I like that I wrote in these threads at my blog. Prefer not to lose track of them in these threads.

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  178. Brandon,

    You wrote, "[S]ince it's not exactly a secret that the discussion here is fairly rough and intense, they're a little like people who join a boxing club then complain that someone punched them in the face."

    To be honest, I did not think there were blogs such as this one. I wish more Christians - especially from the older churches - would behave like this. The discrepancy between rational Christianity on the internet and Christianity off it, is in my experience like night and day.

    "Those are usually people used to hanging out with people who agree them, or finding easy targets and shooting fish in a barrel, and so they can't handle people showing them a point of view in which they are not especially rational."

    I admit, I don't even know how one would start attacking Thomism. It seems so well developed as to be almost irrefutable. I almost feel bad for people like Santi.

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  179. DNW:

    You said: "Now just to be clear, I'm not denying the potential social utility of a limited number of pet-shop boys, flower arrangers, or State Department niche seekers of the type who naturally gravitate to caucusing in the kitchen with Aunt Edna and cousin Lucy. I just don't see how legally mandated respect for the sexual absurdity that is imagined to be linked to such impulses, follows. There should be a pill or something to correct it before long anyway. If therapeutic abortions don't do it sooner."

    You also said that a Catholic might be "disturbed at the prospect of them [gays] spending an eternity in Hell. Until that is, a this-worldly, socially destructive, and tax wasting epidemic like AIDS or something broke out."

    I don't think gay people should be stereotyped or degraded in the cruel fashion you put forward here. You have the free speech right to do it, of course, but it's ugly to hear someone talk like this in 2014.

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  180. Step2: The corollary is that these relationships are equivalently ordered towards family as any other infertile couple.

    But a same-sex couple is not infertile (at least not necessarily). Hence Scott's point that the individual members of a same-sex couple are ordered to family (namely, by individually linking with a member of the opposite sex). But I want to know more about this “equivalence” you just claimed. An infertile couple needs “outside help” (which incidentally can also be quite immoral, of course) because infertility is an imperfection, a deformity. Someone who is infertile is broken, defective, damaged in some way. Indeed, this is self-evident: to be ordered to something yet unable to achieve it means something has gone wrong. And these “equivalent” homosexual couples cannot conceive (except by acting heterosexually, one way or another). Your claim then must be that homosexuals are also damaged in some way, in order to need outside help. No one forwarding this claim has ever been able to tell me — how is it that homosexuals are defective? Please explain to me what you are claiming has gone wrong with them.

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  181. John West: I admit, I don't even know how one would start attacking Thomism.

    Oh, that’s easy. You could attack it from a Scotist position, for example. Or from… um… some, well, other Scholasticky approach. See, the possibilities are endless!

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  182. John West said, "I don't even know how one would start attacking Thomism. It seems so well developed as to be almost irrefutable."

    How about this: Show me the evidence. Show me the money.

    If it is indeed "irrefutable," it's because it has closed itself off from falsification. What would constitute a falsification of a Thomistic thesis? Nothing in neurobiology etc. can touch it, apparently not even in principle.

    And a reality check. Thomism was what Francis Bacon and the empiricists were reacting to as a failed intellectual system in the 17th century. And Thomism has had 700 years to refine its arguments, yet most professional philosophers are still not Thomists.

    And think about this: the most brilliant minds to have engaged philosophy over the past 400 years have rejected it (Nietzsche, Hume, Russell, Wittgenstein, Quine, Rorty, etc.) You would think that if Thomism was "almost irrefutable," that it would be compelling to those with advanced degrees in the subject, and to a majority of those who have been the most brilliant in working out the problems of philosophy since Francis Bacon.

    But this is not so.

    Why is it not so? Because it's more likely false than true. Most compelling and valuable ideas are recognized as such by those who actually know the subject best.

    So Feser's confidence posturing, and the confidence posturing of those in these threads who subscribe to Thomism, are symptoms of its weakness, not its strengths.

    And an obvious weakness is Thomism's ludicrous ideas about sexual and gender essentialism. Any philosophy that cannot find its way to women's full equality and gay marriage is simply on its way to being a dead philosophical movement in the third millennium, not because these are "politically correct" secular positions to adopt, but because they are just positions to adopt. A philosophy that can't get to justice, and shows ambivalence, even contempt, for democracy and individualism, is very, very far from being "almost irrefutable."

    Thomism is larded with question begging, and is as much (more?) an apologetic system as a philosophical system.

    Example: Why is God upset if humans don't make use of their sex organs in accord with their primary and "essential" function?

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  183. Santi: You have the free speech right to do it, of course, but it's ugly to hear someone talk like this in 2014.

    All right, everyone, into my time-machine! It may be ugly in 2014, but I hear it was simply beautiful in 1729!

    Actually, never mind (my time-machine is only roughly the size of a phone-booth anyway) — instead, let’s just use our BIG PRIMATE BRAINS to redefine the year to be 6565. That oughtta do it.



    You also said that a Catholic might be "disturbed at the prospect of them [gays] spending an eternity in Hell. Until that is, a this-worldly, socially destructive, and tax wasting epidemic like AIDS or something broke out.”

    In fact, no, DNW did not say that. He said, "I think we agree here that if they staked no political claims to our attention and interpersonal sacrifice there would in fact be little reason to pay any attention […]. Until that is, a this-worldly, socially destructive, and tax wasting epidemic like AIDS or something broke out.” The omitted clause is an aside which said, "unless you were a Catholic and disturbed at the prospect of them spending an eternity in Hell.”
    So apart from missing the satire, your rephrasing was an appalling misrepresentation. We can only hope that this was owing to an inability to understand DNW on your part, and await your subsequent apology.

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  184. Mr. Green:

    Are you meaning to defend the content of DNW's comments?

    One would expect to hear such comments as DNW's 300 years ago, and even 60 years ago, and perhaps even 15 years ago (unfortunately), but in 2014 you would think that public discourse would be substantially better than this when talking about gays and lesbians.

    A gay man, for example, is CEO of one of our most esteemed public companies. (Apple.) He just came out of the closet today. Is it better for him to go back in?

    Do you really think that if gays "staked no political claims" (DNW's words) on society, heterosexuals would leave them alone (in their closets, presumably)?

    But here's the issue: gays are coming out of the closet and want equality across the board, and that poses problems for those who don't want to pay them any attention at all. Gays are acting like blacks and women did in the 1960s and 70s. They've entered the streets and are making a fuss.

    What should be done? Call them the most crass stereotypes and objectify them in public discourse? Is that right?

    No thanks. I won't be playing that game. There has been far too much of that sort of homophobic bigotry already expressed in this thread.

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  185. I'll parse the rhetoric and material fallacies for practice:

    "Thomism is larded with question begging, and is as much (more?) an apologetic system as a philosophical system."

    This is just a bald assertion - an attempt to smear a straw man of Thomism.

    "How about this: Show me the evidence. Show me the money."

    If you're implying there are no positive arguments seeking to prove Thomism, that's obviously false.

    "If it is indeed "irrefutable," it's because it has closed itself off from falsification."

    The long history of problems seeking to prove Thomism's incoherence, and thereby refute it suggests it is not unfalsifiable. You're conflating two different "irrefutable" and "unfalsfiable."

    The falsification principle is in any case itself unfalsifiable, and thereby fails its own criteria.

    "And Thomism has had 700 years to refine its arguments, yet most professional philosophers are still not Thomists."

    Fallacious argument by nose count.

    "And a reality check."

    You assume Thomism is false by implying it is not real, and that Thomists or I need a "reality" check.

    "And think about this: the most brilliant minds to have engaged philosophy over the past 400 years have rejected it (Nietzsche, Hume, Russell, Wittgenstein, Quine, Rorty, etc.) You would think that if Thomism was "almost irrefutable," that it would be compelling to those with advanced degrees in the subject, and to a majority of those who have been the most brilliant in working out the problems of philosophy since Francis Bacon."

    This is just an argument from authority, philosophy is a bad field to make those about. Besides, worked out systems are actually pretty boring.

    "And an obvious weakness is Thomism's ludicrous ideas about sexual and gender essentialism. Any philosophy that cannot find its way to women's full equality and gay marriage is simply on its way to being a dead philosophical movement in the third millennium, not because these are "politically correct" secular positions to adopt, but because they are just positions to adopt. A philosophy that can't get to justice, and shows ambivalence, even contempt, for democracy and individualism, is very, very far from being 'almost irrefutable.'"

    This just means its not the way you would like it to be. You would like it to be different for ideological reasons. Well, too bad.

    "Thomism is larded with question begging, and is as much (more?) an apologetic system as a philosophical system."

    This is just an assertion (well, maybe also name calling), you need to prove your assertions.

    Incidentally, I'm not myself a Thomist.

    Have a good night, Santi.

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  186. two different words*

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  187. @John West:

    Is that the best you can do? Thomism is no more subject to refutation than Freudianism. It's an elaborate system grounded in no evidence whatsoever. If you ask how the world (for example) looks with essences or without them, the answer is the same. If you ask how a human looks with a soul or without one, the answer is the same. It's why science has never had any use for Thomism, and most contemporary philosophers can barely be bothered with refuting it. For most contemporary philosophers, it's a historical position, not something one should take seriously as a live option in 2014. There's nothing there. It pretends to be grounded in reason and informed by empiricism, but it's really grounded in medieval faith and superstition (original sin, devils, eternal souls, natural hierarchies, mimesis, etc.). The emperor struts confidently, but has no clothes.

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  188. Step2,

    If you are willing to throw all distinctions out the window I would agree. Until then, not so much.

    Unfortunately, you have identified exactly no distinctions that would be relevant to establishing your original claim.

    Levy's article was explicitly just one example of a single point, namely, that the parallels arise in any serious discussion of bestiality, which itself was just one example; apparently you like ignoring distinctions when it is convenient for you. However, your interpretation of his argument is dubious. He is not 'disqualifying' informed consent; he explicitly avoids doing that. Instead he specifically points out what zoophiles typically point out: animals have some kind of consent in a broad sense, and it is simply not clear that the reasons specifically requiring that consent be informed even obtain in the animal case. Certainly nothing that you say here establishes the contrary. It certainly requires more than the lazy handwaving you are doing.

    (The rest of your interpretation of Levy also appears to be off. Levy does not, in fact, restrict his discussion to harm done to the target. He is explicit that his support of the taboo is based on a nonstandard approach that is his own and is not an approach generally taken; and he is explicit that the parallel for homosexual acts cannot be blocked, although he doesn't think that's the end of the story. So you seem to be engaging in some rather lazy reading, as well. At least, your response doesn't really seem to indicate that you did more than speed-scan it and give a knee-jerk reaction to some scattered claims.)

    Except for Wright apparently.

    I don't know what you are referring to here.

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  189. Meta-Meta-Meta-SantiOctober 31, 2014 at 12:21 AM

    Dylan: In other words, your definition of love is so uselessly amorphous that I will not be putting it into my own "circle of concern." Therefore, according to my own subjective "circle of concern" love is not love.

    That is the problem when you refuse to accept LOVE. You need to get more comfortable with sticking things in your own circle if you want to make yourself happy, which is the ESSENCE of love.

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  190. John West,

    I admit, I don't even know how one would start attacking Thomism. It seems so well developed as to be almost irrefutable. I almost feel bad for people like Santi.

    Well, Santi's certainly been proven over and over again not to have the knowledge of Thomism nor of philosophy generally that would be required. There are, however, particular positions on which a person who actually knew what he was talking about, and who was trying to refute a significant part of the whole, could take a stand worth taking seriously -- e.g., arguing that the subject/object distinction is more fundamental than the act/potency distinction. And, of course, part of the point of any broadly scholastic view, whether Thomistic or otherwise, is that such challenges should be met boldly and honestly: that's how one learns. But it also does require finding such positions, which is the hard part; you certainly won't get them from someone like Santi.

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  191. And think about this: the most brilliant minds to have engaged philosophy over the past 400 years have rejected it (Nietzsche, Hume, Russell, Wittgenstein, Quine, Rorty, etc.) You would think that if Thomism was "almost irrefutable," that it would be compelling to those with advanced degrees in the subject, and to a majority of those who have been the most brilliant in working out the problems of philosophy since Francis Bacon.

    Those who have read and understand St. Thomas, rather than dismissing him based on what they've read through some internet surfing, will recognize Santi's argument here as what St. Thomas called the argument from probability - and what he identified as the weakest form of argument.

    That all the (alleged) "best minds" think something is false is reason to give that view a hearing and, if you don't have the time or competence to investigate it yourself, to believe it. But that can never replace understanding the reasons themselves, because sometimes the "best minds" are wrong and can be shown to be wrong.

    Socrates disputed the best minds of his time, as did Plato, Aristotle, etc. St. Thomas himself went against the mainstream of thought in his time (which was Platonist) by his advocacy of the recently rediscovered Aristotle. This is the freedom that true philosophy brings, the freedom from being a slave to the spirit of the moment. Santi seems such a slave as he appears incapable of even questioning the contemporary cultural dogma that homosexual activity is a perfectly wonderful thing that should be celebrated in all circumstances.

    The irony is that the motto of the Enlightenment, the tradition that can be said to include the thinkers to which Santi refers, was "dare to know" (Kant). Enlightenment thinkers exhorted people to not believe things just because everyone else did or because the supposed "best people" did. Instead, use your own reason and, based on an analysis of the things themselves, come to your own conclusions and have the courage to stand by them if the "best thinkers" can't show you why you are wrong. And now we have Santi telling us to close our ears to St. Thomas simply because some alleged bright thinkers have told us to.

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  192. Is that the best you can do? Thomism is no more subject to refutation than Freudianism

    Well that opinion certainly saves you from the work of actually refuting Thomism, or even understanding it.

    Keep staring at those shadows on the wall of the case.

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  193. I think it's very funny that Santi exhorts everyone to inform (it seems that it's rather "ground"), their position, including metaphysical positions, in "empiricism".
    Which is not at all question-begging, because empiricism is simply self-evident.
    Of course, it's special - the self-evident truth of it is not highlighted by reductios, say, but instead is definitively established via recourse to the Santi-dependent realism: what's real and true is whatever Santi says is real and true.
    Try coherently denying that!
    I dare you!

    Justice falls within the scope of Santi's infallibility as well. Additionally, Santi infallibly proclaims beatified and saints of Santi the BIG BRAINED Vulnerable Primate - philosophers who defended positions Santi likes or very much likes. Of course, not all of them see the truth of Santi-dependent realism, as most of them are dead, and some would probably protest vehemently against this irrefutable unfalsifiable truth, but, well. They weren't perfect (some even had the guts to refrain from hi-jacking natural ends all of their time). But with Santi around, we don't have to worry about that.

    What we have to worry about is cohering with Santi-dependent realistic ethics expounded by Meta-Meta Santi in our lives.
    And given that some of us know some Thomism, our responsibility is indeed great - for we know of so many natural ends! Let's put our BIG BRAINS to use.
    This circle'o'luv sure demands expandin'!

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  194. @George Mancz:
    Essences are known via abstraction (and we abstract from sense data). Given that animals manifest immanent causality, and have
    organs corresponding to powers, we can find out their teleology. If real, powers of a thing are directed towards certain outcomes, on hylomorphic analysis. Hearts pump blood. Eyes facilitate seeing.


    The problem is, we have scientific theories that can explain all the quantitatively-measurable behavior of hearts, eyes etc. just in terms of their physical makeup. And Darwinian evolution certainly doesn't suggest any notion that parts of organisms have single "correct" functions, evolutionary history seems to be full of examples of exaptation where something that original was selected because it provided one sort of functional advantage went on to become shaped by selection for an entirely different function, like how a fish's gas bladder is currently "for" regulating its depth in the water, but its thought to have evolved from a primitive lung which was "for" breathing out of water.

    So it's fine to believe in "essences" or "true teleological purposes" in a purely faith-based way, but it seems like nonsense to claim you can have any sound empirical basis for particular claims about essences/TTP. Imagine two possible worlds, where all the quantitatively describable physical motions of matter are the same, and human subjective consciousness is the same, but the essences/TTPs are different.* So given that all your subjective impressions of the external world would be the same in both worlds, how could you possibly have a valid basis for using those subjective impressions for arguing for one world's version of essences over the other?

    *For example, in this post about Prometheus it was argued that it would make no difference to classical theism if humans were artificial creations of another species--so given this post on how machines have only accidental forms whereas organisms have essential forms, I take this to mean whether a given artificial creation has an "essence" of its own basically depends on whether God deems it to have an essence, and uses other intelligent beings as a means of bringing this pre-ordained essence into existence. That suggests it's at least possible that some of our own future technological creations, like A.I.s, might have essences, but knowing whether a given technological creation had an essence would require knowing the will of God, there'd be nothing in its mere behavior to make it impossible that it lacked an essence and was a mere accidental form, and likewise nothing to make it impossible that it did have a substantial form.

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  195. @JesseM:

    "So it's fine to believe in "essences" or "true teleological purposes" in a purely faith-based way, but it seems like nonsense to claim you can have any sound empirical basis for particular claims about essences/TTP."

    I never thought about it this way, but you may have a point. For example, the distinction between a live human being and a dead one, is not an essential distinction, but a "purely faith-based" way of carving out the world. Biological classificatory schemes are non-sensical. And when Physicists tell us that spin is an essential property of elementary particles, and that there is an essential difference between particles with integer spin (bosons) and half-integer one (fermions), they are talking decidedly un-empirical rubbish. The entire classificatory scheme of elementary particles is un-empirical rubbish.

    For the listener, who listens in the snow,
    And, nothing himself, beholds
    Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is.
    -- Wallace Stevens, "The Snowman"

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  196. The problem is, we have scientific theories that can explain all the quantitatively-measurable behavior of hearts, eyes etc. just in terms of their physical makeup

    It only becomes a problem in light of the scientistic (not scientific) assumption that "quantitatively-measurable" behavior is the only behavior, or that all other behavior can be reduced to quantitatively-measurable behavior.

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  197. "No, the other way around. Saving things I like that I wrote in these threads at my blog. Prefer not to lose track of them in these threads."

    Either way, Santi's only purpose here is gathering blog fodder.

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