Friday, May 30, 2014

Sexual cant from the asexual Kant


Kant never married and apparently died a virgin.  He is sometimes described as having had a low opinion of sex, on the basis of passages like this one from his Lectures on Ethics:

[S]exuality is not an inclination which one human being has for another as such, but is an inclination for the sex of another… The desire which a man has for a woman is not directed towards her because she is a human being, but because she is a woman; that she is a human being is of no concern to the man; only her sex is the object of his desires. Human nature is thus subordinated. Hence it comes that all men and women do their best to make not their human nature but their sex more alluring and direct their activities and lusts entirely towards sex. Human nature is thereby sacrificed to sex. (Louis Infield translation, p.164)

“Sexuality, therefore,” Kant concludes, “exposes mankind to the danger of equality with the beasts.”  He qualifies the claim, but just barely:

Sexual love can, of course, be combined with human love and so carry with it the characteristics of the latter, but taken by itself and for itself, it is nothing more than appetite. Taken by itself it is a degradation of human nature; for as soon as a person becomes an Object of appetite for another, all motives of moral relationship cease to function, because as an Object of appetite for another a person becomes a thing… (p. 163)

I think the account of sexual desire implicit here is seriously wrong both metaphysically and phenomenologically -- that is to say, both in terms of what the natural end or telos of sexual desire actually is, and in terms of how this desire is typically felt and its end typically perceived.  Kant is correct that sexual desire is not aimed at another human being merely qua human.  But it is wrong to say that the end is or is perceived to be merely the sex of the other as such.  Kant makes it sound as if a man’s sexual desire is “aimed” at femaleness per se, and a woman’s sexual desire “aimed” at maleness per se -- as if it could in principle equally well be satisfied by a female or male of any species.  That is definitely not the case where the natural end of human sexual desire is concerned.  (Naturally, in affirming the existence of a “natural end” I’m looking at the subject from a Thomistic natural law point of view, which I’ve developed and defended elsewhere.)  Nor is it true phenomenologically either, except in those rare individuals tempted to bestiality. 

As I argued in an earlier post and a NCBQ article, a man’s sexual desire is aimed by nature toward a woman and a woman’s sexual desire is aimed by nature toward a man.  And that is also how it is typically experienced, though of course as everywhere else in the natural order there are imperfections and aberrant cases.  What a man wants, even when his intentions are not honorable, is not “a human being” but neither is it merely “a female.”  He wants a woman, and a woman is of course simultaneously human and female.  And what a woman wants is a man -- who is of course both human and male -- and neither “a human being” nor “a male.”  Kant abstracts out “being human,” “being female,” and “being male,” and seems to think that if the object of sexual desire isn’t the first, then it can only be one of the latter.  (For Kant, it seems, we’re all like George Michael.)  But the true object of sexual desire is what you had before you abstracted these things out.

As I indicated in the earlier post, it is important to keep in mind how true this is even in most immoral sexual encounters.  Conservative moralists often speak  as if sexual immorality were essentially a matter of dehumanizing or animalizing the sexual act, but that is not quite right.  Casanova and Don Draper are womanizers, not “femalizers.”  Nor is it merely that they want females of the species Homo sapiens.  They want their sexual partners to have the reason and volition that distinguish human beings from other animals.  The womanizer wants a woman to admire and surrender to him, and only what can think and choose (as non-human animals cannot) can do that sort of thing.  You can’t seduce a non-human animal.  That is not to say that there aren’t perverts who really do desire something non-human or formerly human (as in bestiality or necrophilia) but that is rare and so very far from the paradigm case that even many people otherwise unsympathetic to the natural law understanding of sex can see that there is something warped about it.

It is also just mistaken to say that “all men and women do their best to make not their human nature but their sex more alluring” and that the “Object of [sexual] appetite… becomes a thing.”  It is true that men and women trying to attract members of the opposite sex do not try to enhance what they have in common as human beings, but neither do they try to reduce themselves merely to maleness or femaleness understood as that which they have in common with non-human animals.  A man tries to enhance his masculinity and a woman her femininity.  Non-human animals are male or female, but they are not masculine or feminine.  To be masculine is to be (to that extent) an excellent specimen of a male human being, and to be feminine is to be (to that extent) an excellent specimen of a female human being.  Humanness as such is not emphasized, but neither is it abstracted out.  The man trying to attract a woman is not saying “Look at what a human being I am” but neither is he saying “Look at what a male animal I am”; he is saying “Look at what a man I am,” where a man is both human and male at once.  Similarly, a woman trying to attract a man is saying “Look at what a woman I am,” where to be a woman is to be neither merely human nor merely female but both at once.

So, while it is understandable why Kant would be suspicious of sexual desire if it really had the teleology he seems to think it does, I think he just gets the teleology wrong.  To be sure, Kant does not say that the gratification of sexual desire is inherently immoral.  He allows that it is morally permissible in marriage.  But the reasons he gives are instructive:

The sole condition on which we are free to make use of our sexual desire depends upon the right to dispose over the person as a whole... If I have the right over the whole person, I have also the right over the part and so I have the right to use that person’s organa sexualia for the satisfaction of sexual desire. But how am I to obtain these rights over the whole person? Only by giving that person the same rights over the whole of myself. This happens only in marriage… Matrimony is the only condition in which use can be made of one’s sexuality. If one devotes one’s person to another, one devotes not only sex but the whole person; the two cannot be separated. (pp. 166-67)

With sex as with everything else, morality for Kant boils down to respect for “the person.”  It is because in marriage two “persons” are united -- not a man and a woman, mind you, but “one’s person” and “another [person]” -- that the gratification of sexual desire becomes morally permissible.  (Why is not clear.  If sexual desire as such involves treating another person as a mere animal or as a thing, how can it ever be permissible on Kantian terms to gratify it?  Why wouldn’t the ideal Kantian marriage be sexless?)

We seem to have implicit here a kind of Cartesianism.  There’s the body, which is either male or female but as such a merely animal and inhuman sort of thing; and then there’s “the person,” which is a bloodless, sexless, rational and willing agent hidden behind the body.  Men and women disappear.  It’s as if for Kant, the ideal human beings would all be like the androgynous Pat and Chris from the old Saturday Night Live “It’s Pat” sketches

Not (to be fair) that Kant explicitly says this or would want to say it.  And Kant himself inadvertently gives the reason why this would be a mistaken view of human nature when he writes:

The body is part of the self; in its togetherness with the self it constitutes the person; a man cannot make of his person a thing… (p. 166)

Exactly right.  But that means that since Harry’s body is part of himself and it is a man’s body, then being a man, specifically, is part of what it is to be Harry, and thus Harry’s being seen and sexually desired as a man is precisely not to be seen and desired as a thing.  Similarly, since Sally’s body is part of herself and it is a woman’s body, then being a woman, specifically, is part of what it is to be Sally, and thus Sally’s being seen and sexually desired as a woman is precisely not to be seen and desired as a thing.  Where real human beings (as opposed to angels and as opposed to SNL’s Pat) are concerned, to be a person just is to be either a man and thus male, or a woman and thus female.  It just is to be of one sex or the other.  And to desire someone sexually just is a way of desiring a kind of person, namely the human kind.  Your sex is not contingent and extrinsic to you but rather intrinsic and essential to you.  (That is why, for Aquinas, though sexual intercourse will not exist in the hereafter, sex -- being a man or being a woman -- will exist forever.)

But then, Kant’s discussion of sexual morality in the Lectures is not clear or carefully worked out in the first place.  For example, his account of marriage makes crucial use of the notion of having mutual property rights in one another, yet just a couple of pages earlier (at p. 165) he had argued that a human being cannot properly be thought of as a kind of property, not even his own property.  Presumably he would regard the “property” talk in the passage about marriage as metaphorical, but how exactly do we cash out the metaphor in a way that will preserve the force of the argument?

Given that he very strongly condemns homosexual behavior in the Lectures, Kant would no doubt have been horrified by the notion of “same-sex marriage.”  Yet what he says about marriage could certainly be developed in a way that would allow for it.  If marriage is essentially a union of human persons, and maleness and femaleness are extraneous to being human persons (as what he says about sexual desire seems to imply, whether or not he would want to draw the conclusion), then why couldn’t a marriage exist between any two human persons? 

As I have noted before, while Kantian personalist talk has in recent decades become popular among some conservative Christian moralists, it is something of which they ought to be wary.   It is conceptually sloppy and tends toward conclusions that are (at least from the point of view of the traditional natural law theorist) either too rigorist or too lax.  Yes, human beings are persons, but so are angels.  What is distinctive about human morality is what sets us apart from the angels.  That is one reason why the traditional Aristotelian-Thomistic conception of human beings as rational animals is superior to the Kantian approach.  Our animality -- and thus our being either men or women, either male or female -- is as essential to us as our rationality, not something extraneous or tacked-on.  For the Thomist, “It’s Patrick” or “It’s Patricia.”  It ain’t “Pat.”

238 comments:

  1. @Matt Sheean: I think that, in this case, what you said makes the disanalogy more clear. In the case of sex and natural law the question has to do with how I should shepherd my potencies into actuality (should I become a father or a monk?). But, in the case of skin, at least as we are talking about it now, the question is what I should do just in case I have a defect, or privation, that might be statistically correlated with my skin color.

    Okay, I think that I have a better idea of what you're getting at. Let me know if the following captures the distinction that you're pointing towards.

    On the one hand, my skin is not just a passive barrier protecting my organs. The skin has to do all sorts of things in the course of its proper functioning. For example, the skin actively regulates the body's temperature through sweating and piloerection.

    Furthermore, my skin can only do all of these things if it is not too damaged and if it is in a friendly environment. For example, to regulate temperature, the skin needs to be uncut and unburnt, and it needs to be somewhere where heat will be transported away.

    It is also true that I might need to use my reason to keep the environment friendly and to prevent and repair damage. The exact way in which I should do this will depend on accidental features, such as my skin's color.

    Nonetheless, I don't use my reason to guide the skin's actions. All of those things it does, it does without the help of my intellect. The condition that the skin needs to be in is its "default" condition (e.g., uncut and unburnt). The environment that the skin needs is the "default" environment (e.g., not the vacuum of space).

    Yes, my reason is responsible for blocking things in the environment that would damage my skin (such as UV rays). I also need to block things in the environment that would, in turn, block my skin's own activity (such as insulation that would trap heat so that my skin couldn't regulate my temperature). But, as far as my skin is concerned, my reason's job is restricted to this "blocking" role. I just need to block the right things in the environment. As long as I do that, my skin will carry on with its proper activities without any guidance from my reason.

    The genitals, in contrast, can't procreate on their own. While they can do many things without any guidance from the reason, they usually need help from the reason to complete the process of procreation. The activity of the genitals results in procreation only under certain circumstances, and the activity of reason is usually necessary to put the genitals in those circumstances.

    (Reason might not be strictly necessary for procreation, but, in humans, the reason normally helps, even if it is just to navigate the social cues involved in flirting.)

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  2. [Continuing my previous comment.]

    That said, I'm not sure how "essential" this distinction is. (I'm not using "essential" here in the technical sense of A-T.)

    (1) On the one hand, it's easy to imagine rational animals who procreate without using their rationality. For example, there might be humans out there (in the metaphysical sense) who reproduce more like plants. They walk around just like we do, but they reproduce by spraying pollen (if male) or ovules (if female) in the air. As they go about their day, their skin occasionally releases a mist of gametes. The pollen and ovules mingle in the air, resulting in seeds that germinate in the soil. This release of gametes happens in the same unconscious way in which we sweat.

    (2) On the other hand, it's easy to imagine rational animals who need to use their rationality to guide the process of sweating. For example, there might be people out there who evolved symbiotically with a kind of plant so that, on each occasion when they need to sweat, they must first spread the resin from this plant on their skin. Sweating is not something that their skin can do on its own. They must first find some of this plant. They must first put their skin in the right circumstances, just as our genitals cannot procreate without the right circumstances. One could even imagine that the plant that these people have to use depends on their skin color, so that people with different skin colors need the resin from different plants. Without the right kind of plant resin, the skin is unable to complete its purpose of regulating temperature, but finding the plant requires the use of reason.

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  3. Tyrell,

    Looks good to me. The only thing I would add is that I do think the ethical question is still important to the distinctions being made between skin and sex, and that it is omitted from what you write here. Procreation involves the realization of an end - an end that can't just be realized in any old way and still be ethical. By contrast, as you say, the skin will do what it will do, but it's also hard to see how I have a duty to, say, wear sunscreen, that doesn't just reduce to some general duty I have to myself, to maintain a healthy, capable body and mind. Put simply, skin has no duty specific to it, whereas sex does (though, as the argument has proceeded so far, the male and female "duties" reduce to duties of procreation).

    I like the two examples you give in the second comment (either would make for a decent Star Trek episode!). In the first case, it seems to me that this rational species, which procreates so indiscriminately in virtue of its composition, would still find it urgent to arrange for the care of its offspring. Naturally, the arrangements made for that end would differ greatly from our institution of marriage. I'm inclined to think, though, that even if the offspring were to emerge with an adult body (for the sake of argument), that the education of young rational animals is inseparable from procreation in any case.

    In the second case, the case of the symbiotic sweat, I think that would be an example of 'the realization of an end'. This process seems anologous to eating in us. In order to process nutrients, you and I have to take something in from the outside, we have to take the right sorts of things in, and we have to determine how we are going to provide enough food for ourselves and our dependents, etc. In any case, the sweating and the eating are involved in realizing some biological end, but always an end that is subordinate to some other end, our overall health, which in turn allows us to be more productive (perhaps to comment on this very blog in a lucid and amiable way, surely an end that is greater than a healthy meal even, since we are, ostensibly, contemplating eternal things here). I think here I can say I am coming into agreement with you, sex really is just the same in that we govern it, as we govern our eating habits, for our health, soundness of mind, and to maintain right relations with others (I think everyone has felt the sting of friendships lost because of sexual indiscretion) so that we might pursue our loftiest ends unencumbered by indiscretions in the lower ends. The difference between eating, though, rubbing resin on my skin to sweat, or procreating like a plant, is that that last is not a part of my essence as homo sapiens (nor is the second), and the first two do not entail relations essential to their function (e.g. I can be both the cook and the eater of the same meal - but I cannot be both a father and a son of the same person). I think Mr Green has been saying something to the effect of the last example, that it is not necessarily sex that is unique or special, but the relational aspect of our rationality in which sex is expressed. This goes for the plant people, too, I think (thought, as I said, not in the same way).

    I think I am rambling a bit, though, so I'll stop.

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  4. Dguller,

    It all depends what you mean by focus. My point is just that the material world is not simply negative and limiting to the Platonic tradition. It is in fact good, as it is for the Christian, when viewed in its proper place - it is a reflection of and path to the divine. If you accept this then there is no disagreement between us. The same goes for transformation. I largely agree here. The corporeal needs to be transcended, but that does not mean it is not, in its proper place, good.

    It is certainly true that it is primarily the intellect through which we come to know higher realities, but, in general, for the Platonist this has been more focused on symbolism and ritual than on dialectic. Plato and Plotinus were unusual in their stress on dialectic - this is why it was Iamblichus who held the premier place amongst the late antique Platonists and not Plotinus, although, as you point out, even Plotinus was keen to stress the limits of dialectic. Symbolism and ritual focus on the concrete, rather than the abstract, but then make use of that - say the face of icon. But, yes, it is the formal aspects that are most important. The point is that the particular and the concrete are not necessarily to be despised.

    My main modern influences are Henry Corbin and the Temenos Academy as well as René Schwaller de Lubicz. I have read some of the Perennialists, because they are insightful authors and great Platonists, but they are not my central influences. Similarly, of the romantics I know of the philosophical work only of Coleridge and Blake - and these two are essentially Platonists. But I certainly embrace a broad Platonists that includes not just Plato and Plotinus but the Pythagoreans, Hermetica, the Kabbalah, as well as Christian and Islamic Platonism. It is not Perennialism I'm describing, simply this broad Platonic tradition.

    On form and the particular, I have not read Hegel or, as far as I know, been influenced by those who were influenced by him. I am just describing the Platonic position that the form carries within it the possibilities of individual and particular manifestation - that, in some sense, these, when manifested, participate in it. Take number. Number itself contains within it all the individual numbers, 1, 2, 3,etc. It must unify and transcend these individual numbers, or they would not be within it. So, in that sense they cannot be individual within it - number is not 1(well 1 is often used to symbolise its unity, but we'll ignore that) or 2 or 3, but all of these and none. But it must also preserve their individuality, from another, because it would make no sense for number not to contain 1, 2, 3, etc. So number is both made of particulars and yet unifies and transcends them. This, right or wrong (and I'm not here to defend it), is the Platonic idea of unity, although perhaps its best expositors are, on the one hand, the Pythagoreans and, on the other hand, Coleridge. What is central to remember is the Platonic view does not annihilate particulars, as it is often accused of.

    For Ibn Arabi and Henry Corbin, as for much of the Platonic tradition, the imagination, or creative imagination, refers to, to put it crudely, the lower side of the intellect or nous. It is the side which takes the formless and clothes it in subtle and corporeal form.

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  5. Again, the concrete is a vehicle to the divine, i.e. it is a means of transportation. The ultimate goal is to unify with the divine, and thus leave the vehicle behind. The fact that this is not possible in the material world is not something that Platonists celebrate and cherish, but rather they see it as a perpetual frustration. Honestly, cite me an ancient Platonist, or Neoplatonist, that relishes in the material itself as something to be embraced wholeheartedly and never to be abandoned or rejected.

    Here is the crux of any disagreement between us. You are using words like cherish somewhat ill-advisedly. The material world can be cherished, but only when it is experienced as a reflection of and path to the divine. That I have always made clear. My point is simply for the Platonist this is its true reality. It is, indeed, a vehicle, but it is not to be repudiated so much as transcended. Of course, in the end, the material is as of nothing next to the Ideal realms, let alone the divine, but it is not literally nothing and, so far as it is, is good.

    It is possible to find sanctification in this life, in the material world. Just about all mystical traditions have affirmed that. But, yes, the material can certainly be a snare. Some Platonic inspired mystics have, therefore, stressed the need to withdraw from it, like Christian hermits and mystics, whereas others, like the Sufi, have maintained one can live in the world and seek God in the world.

    I do not know any passage from the ancient Platonists which will exactly show what I mean, but it is implicit in their stress on symbolism, their references to beauty and love. But Platonism has often been the source, in Christianity and Islam, of a positive view of the world(although occasionally it has worked the other way) and nature and art. Eriugena or the School of Chartres or the Sufi themselves spring to mind. If Platonism was simply world denying and dour its influence on such movements would be inexplicable.

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  6. Furthermore, I think, on symbolism, you miss the importance of the concrete as a means to spiritual vision. Yes, it is ultimately form through which one glimpses higher realities, but abstraction has only a small role and it is an embrace of the particular (though with spiritual readiness to transcend it) that leads one to the symbolism within it.

    Let us take some examples. You mentioned the Perennialists, and one of their works I have read is Martin Lings's brilliant exposition of Shakespeare as sacred art. He describes how Shakespeare's plays, especially from 1599 onwards, were suffused with divine symbolism. Now, if one watches King Lear , it is only by a close appreciation of the verse and plot and characters that one can comprehend its symbolism and, perhaps, see beyond it. Indeed, the concrete is so important that reading the play, whilst often profound, cannot compare to watching it - and watching a good performance, attuned to the true depths of the play, is a lot better than a more mediocre one, even in terms of symbolism.

    Or take an icon and the theology of icons, which is remarkably similar to the Platonic doctrine of the symbol. It is through the matter itself, painstakingly and uniquely painted, that one may glimpse the face of Christ or Theotokos.

    One might even take the example of a spiritual master or guide. The Platonic tradition has always stressed the importance of such personal relationships. So indeed have the Christians, like monks and the Hesychasts, perhaps under some Platonic influence. Whether through rites and initiations or just through one's day to day relationship with one's spiritual master, one may experience spiritual symbolism. And, again, it is through the concrete and particular that one sees this symbolism - through the living acts and countenance of the master.

    It is through form, certainly that one is lead, but what is important to grasp is how little of a role abstraction tends to play in the process and how important the concrete, the particular, the sensory can play in the process. I think your comments risk obscuring this key aspect of Platonism.

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  7. Anon,

    "Humans need oughts in order to direct their free will, which has a natural tendency to anarchy if unregulated."

    The will doesn't have a natural tendency to anarchy, otherwise anarchy would be its end (I realize that you could be using "tendency" loosely, but stick with me, I think this might be helpful). Rather, the will is a "rational appetite", that has the good as it's object. It's the means of movement toward what the intellect has presented as good. So, if one believes that their sentiments, passions, desires, urges (e.g. being "in love" - an appropriate example to the conversation at hand) with someone, etc are the harbingers of good, naturally, one will find themselves far away from the good, perhaps in a state of anarchy, which is not, after all, a state of utter freedom, but one in which the will is surrendered to every passing whim (and they may become increasingly cynical, after they realize just how many people one can find oneself in love with, united with in sexual pleasure, and so on in one's lifetime). This doesn't answer your larger question, but I hope it provides some clarity on the path.

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  8. Whoa,typos

    I'm working iPad.

    Above the sentence should read "(e.g. being "in love" with someone - an appropriate example to the conversation at hand)"

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  9. @Mr Green

    Here’s what I’ve been able to glean so far from “Instantaneous Change Without Instants”

    A wall is being repainted from red to green. At the beginning we have one red wall. At the end no red walls. So we can speak of the redness of the wall moving from one to zero. At the beginning we have no green walls, at the end one. So we can speak of the greenness of the wall moving from zero to one. When does the wall change from red to green? When the value of the redness of the wall reaches zero and the greenness reaches one. This is where the concept of the limit or derivative comes in. We can speak of the redness of the wall approaching zero, or the greenness approaching one. We can also say that the duration of the moment when that change takes place approaches zero *potentially*. And that, I think, is the crucial distinction. We no longer have the notion of *actual* instants, which notion is contradictory.

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  11. Jeremy:

    I think that we are mostly in agreement, if not in emphasis, and so I will only comment on where we disagree. We agree that the material world is not evil, and that the goodness of the material world is due to the presence of form within material entities, and that is because the enmattered forms are imperfect instantiations and images of the divine archetypes or Forms, which can only be reached through the enmattered forms via contemplation and intellectual apprehension, which is essentially an immaterial process.

    It is certainly true that it is primarily the intellect through which we come to know higher realities, but, in general, for the Platonist this has been more focused on symbolism and ritual than on dialectic.

    But the symbolism and ritual have a contemplative component, as well. They are not mindless activities that exclusively transform the person on a subconscious level. Rather, they have a conscious, mindful and meditative aspect that involves focused attention that triggers intellectual apprehension of the deeper reality behind the symbol, which is simply the enmattered form within a material entity.

    Symbolism and ritual focus on the concrete, rather than the abstract, but then make use of that - say the face of icon. But, yes, it is the formal aspects that are most important. The point is that the particular and the concrete are not necessarily to be despised.

    You have yet to cite any Platonic authorities that explicitly state that the body is something to be celebrated and embraced as positive, and not to be rejected and abandoned in an act of transcendence to reach the divine beyond the material, which simply clouds and inhibits the intellect from achieving union with the divine.

    What is central to remember is the Platonic view does not annihilate particulars, as it is often accused of.

    No-one claims that Platonism annihilates the particulars. I don’t even know what that means. Particulars clearly exist, but they are considered to be imperfect instantiations and images of perfect archetypes that exist in the divine realm. However, particulars are the means and route by which we can reach the divine at all, and this is due to the presence of enmattered forms within them, which our minds can cognitive achieve a degree of union with, which is the underlying process that allows us to transcend the material particulars and attain the immaterial and eternal reality. In other words, contemplating the forms in matter is the window through which we cognitively perceive the eternal and divine. However, it does not follow that Platonism embraces and rejoices in material particulars. It simply demotes them to the lowest level of importance in the hierarchy of reality, and perceives them as a distant echo and trace of the divine.

    You are using words like cherish somewhat ill-advisedly. The material world can be cherished, but only when it is experienced as a reflection of and path to the divine. That I have always made clear. My point is simply for the Platonist this is its true reality. It is, indeed, a vehicle, but it is not to be repudiated so much as transcended. Of course, in the end, the material is as of nothing next to the Ideal realms, let alone the divine, but it is not literally nothing and, so far as it is, is good.

    I have been saying that the Platonist looks down upon the material world as a distant and imperfect reflection of the divine realm, and thus as something not to be embraced and cherished in and of itself, but rather as something to be transcended and left behind in order to actualize our true selves as immaterial knowers of the divine, as much as this is possible for embodied beings. The material world is simply a means to an end, and it is a means because the end is present in a deficient state within the means, and thus serves as a symbol that points towards the divine end.

    I really do not know what you are saying that is any different from this.

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  12. It is possible to find sanctification in this life, in the material world. Just about all mystical traditions have affirmed that. But, yes, the material can certainly be a snare. Some Platonic inspired mystics have, therefore, stressed the need to withdraw from it, like Christian hermits and mystics, whereas others, like the Sufi, have maintained one can live in the world and seek God in the world.

    True, but the only way to achieve such “sanctification in this life” is to be able to constantly focus one’s attention on the divine, which shines through the material world via the imperfect images of the divine that are present within material reality. It is not that one celebrates the material world and its activities, but rather one celebrates the manifestation of the divine within the material by virtue of the presence of enmattered forms. Some individuals can achieve this state of mind while remaining in the material world, and others cannot, and thus must withdraw from it. It is a matter of temperament and resources, but the goal is ultimately the same. And certainly none embraces the material as an end unto itself, but only as a means towards a greater end.

    I do not know any passage from the ancient Platonists which will exactly show what I mean, but it is implicit in their stress on symbolism, their references to beauty and love.

    So, you are not claiming what Platonism says, but rather what Jeremy’s interpretation of the implications of Platonism is.

    Yes, it is ultimately form through which one glimpses higher realities, but abstraction has only a small role and it is an embrace of the particular (though with spiritual readiness to transcend it) that leads one to the symbolism within it.

    Again, with the abstraction! I never mentioned it in our discussion. However, I do agree that there must be some cognitive mechanism by which the enmattered form in a material entity can present itself to the human intellect for apprehension of the form itself as a necessary means by which the mind can unite with the divine. Abstraction is one way that this occurs. Perhaps intuition is another. I don’t know enough about this to comment any further.

    It is through form, certainly that one is lead, but what is important to grasp is how little of a role abstraction tends to play in the process and how important the concrete, the particular, the sensory can play in the process. I think your comments risk obscuring this key aspect of Platonism.

    I agree that the right material conditions must be present for proper intellectual apprehension of the truth. For example, one’s body must not be delirious with starvation, but rather must be reasonable healthy. And this certainly includes the right material environment, which would include which material entities are present and how they are perceived by the person. But again, as we both agree, it is not about the material entities or conditions themselves, but about putting the person in the correct frame of mind in order to see through the material entities towards a hidden reality, and it is that hidden reality that holds the true value and importance as the ultimate end, whereas the material entities are only important as means towards that end.

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  13. Dguller,

    Again, there doesn't seem to be that much we disagree about.

    It is not so much my interpretation of the implications of Platonism, as my reading of the long Platonic tradition, stretching from the pre-Socratics to Henry Corbin and beyond as exploring and bringing out the implications of Platonism. Obviously, I think this is a legitimate approach.

    Our main difference seems to be that I feel you are still talking in an overly negative way about the corporeal world. I certainly admit it has its snares and that, even when viewed properly, it is only a small part even of creation and therefore we hunger for that which is beyond it.

    But, that does not mean that the Platonic tradition sees it as exclusively as limit and snare. You are using words like cherish, which obscure my point. The point is not that we are to cherish the world out of proportion but that we are to treat it positively so far as it is a reflection of God. It is, moreover, a reflection of God under particular conditions and modalities. Even our senses are a distant reflection of the Nous. But the body is a reflection of God, just as creation is (the doctrine of the microcosm-macrocosm). So we can embrace the symbolism of the body, and Ibn Arabi even speaks of the beauty of women being the premier reflection of the beauty of God to man. Now, I certainly agree that this embrace must be one that leads beyond the corporeal, but that doesn't mean one cannot love and enjoy the right aspects of the corporeal, as long as one does this correctly.

    Your perspective is all together too detached. You are implying we can only make use of symbolism in complete detachment from the material. Sometimes, indeed often, this detachment is useful, but it is not the whole story. That link I posted to Mr. Green made an interesting attempt at a basically Platonic account of human sexuality. It essentially tried to show how eros, correctly entered into, can lead to agape: how married sexual love can be a symbol of the divine love and lead us to it. But from your point of view it would seem this cannot be, because there is an element of non-detachment in married love and sexuality. In fact, I think your perspective would risk compromising a lot of symbolism. When the Sufi, or Christian, makes use of the innate symbolism of wine to evoke spiritual realities there is use of the pleasure of wine which is then transcended. This often happens with symbolism. Certainly, contemplation is important - even that informed by discursive reason - but it is very often, as in the case of the wine, that we come to see through the material not so much by going around the sensual but partially through it. Music is one of the most symbolically and spiritually rich arts - but how it could ever operate if one was to balk completely at the sensory, I'm unsure. How could your perspective, which so stresses detachment, ever take this into account?

    Indeed, as I said, even our senses and bodies are a reflection of the divine, under the conditions of corporeal existence. Therefore, they can be put in proper order and have a real, if limited, role to play in our spiritual journey, rather than simply being a negative.

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  14. Jeremy:

    Our main difference seems to be that I feel you are still talking in an overly negative way about the corporeal world.

    I actually think that we are basically saying the same thing. We both agree that the material is valuable and good, but only insofar as it is a reflection and image of the divine. That alone is what accounts for the value and goodness of the material.

    I certainly admit it has its snares and that, even when viewed properly, it is only a small part even of creation and therefore we hunger for that which is beyond it.

    The snares occur when one forgets that the value and goodness of the material is the presence of an image or reflection of a divine within the material, and sees the material as intrinsically good and valuable in and of itself.

    The point is not that we are to cherish the world out of proportion but that we are to treat it positively so far as it is a reflection of God.

    Which is exactly what I have been saying all along.

    But the body is a reflection of God

    As an image is a reflection of an archetype.

    Your perspective is all together too detached. You are implying we can only make use of symbolism in complete detachment from the material.

    To quote myself: “I agree that the right material conditions must be present for proper intellectual apprehension of the truth.” Hard to endorse “complete detachment from the material” when I affirm that certain material conditions are essential to “proper intellectual apprehension of the truth”. Now, that should be qualified. Complete detachment from the material is the ideal, which can only be achieved in a disembodied form of cognition that cannot be achieved while in an embodied state. So, while in an embodied state, the right material conditions are essential to proper intellectual apprehension of the truth, but while in a disembodied state, such conditions are completely unnecessary.

    Certainly, contemplation is important - even that informed by discursive reason - but it is very often, as in the case of the wine, that we come to see through the material not so much by going around the sensual but partially through it.

    Certainly.

    Indeed, as I said, even our senses and bodies are a reflection of the divine, under the conditions of corporeal existence. Therefore, they can be put in proper order and have a real, if limited, role to play in our spiritual journey, rather than simply being a negative.

    Agreed.

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  15. Schopenhauer on the metaphysics of music: "For as we have said, music is distinguished from the other arts by the fact that it is not a copy of the phenomenon, or, more accurately, the adequate objectification of the will, but is the direct copy of the will itself, and therefore exhibits itself as the metaphysical to everything physical in the world, and as the thing-in-itself to every phenomenon. We might, therefore, just as well call the world embodied music as embodied will; and this is the reason why music makes every picture, and indeed every scene of real life and of the world, at once appear with higher significance, certainly all the more as the melody is analogous to the inner spirit of the given phenomenon."

    Also, some modern angels singing an intoxicating a capppela.

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  16. @Step2:

    "We might, therefore, just as well call the world embodied music as embodied will[.]"

    I'm very sympathetic to this Schopenhauerian view, and my sympathy is reinforced by the (yes) intoxicating Wailin' Jennys. Beautiful.

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  17. Dguller,

    Well, we seem to be almost entirely in agreement.

    My first comment was in response to the fact I took you to be suggesting there couldn't be a positive Platonic view of human sexuality and the sex act, like the Kabbalah or that I questioned, because Platonists must disavow the body and the material. You seemed to be contrasting Platonism to A-T in this regard. Some ancient Platonists did seem to imply this, but I think here, as elsewhere, they were not representing the full possibilities of their tradition; although their approach can serve a pragmatic spiritual purpose - sexuality can be a snare - it neglects a legitimate side of sexuality. Those, like the Kabbalah, which did develop a positive metaphysics of sexuality are bringing out what is implicit in the Platonic position. Here we have an almost exact parallel to Christianity, where some, like Augustine, have emphasised the negative side of sexuality out of a concern for spiritual efficacy, whereas others have had a more balanced approach.

    Platonism does have an interesting ambiguity. It was a major influence on Gnosticism (ignoring for a minute that there was not necessarily ever a single movement of Gnosticism) and yet has always been one of the central influences in those aspects of Christian and Islam thought that have viewed nature and the world as sacred and sacramental.

    Step2 and Scott,

    I can't say I've read much of his work, but Joscelyn Godwin is one of the premier contemporary scholars of the traditional Platonic-Pythagorean view of music. Sir John Tavener also is a recent Western composer who was influenced by traditional ideas of music.

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  18. Step2,

    Also, some modern angels singing an intoxicating a capppela.


    Alas, only one angel singing here, and with instrumental accompaniment; but at least it too has to do with the arrival of a storm, albeit a less metaphorical storm (though something still may be washed away via the listenin').

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  19. Another attempt at prime versus signate matter.

    Prime matter “pure potentiality for the reception of form” is indivisible. Signate, matter is divisible and a child of prime matter. A form must have been married to prime matter in order to produce signate matter. What form?

    Will any form do? Immaterial things, for example angels, have forms. However the angelic form does not mix with prime matter in a way which produces signate matter. The human soul, though immaterial, does. But what is the difference that makes the difference? I suggest that is is man’s status as microcosm. Why? Because the microcosm is “the measure of all things”. How? A part that does not in its way “contain” reflect, or refer back to, the whole, cannot find its place within it. Consider the number one. As a sign for unity it signifies the whole. As a sign for the unit, it signifies the simplest part. Without a symbol linking whole and part, direction, hierarchy, etc. Would be impossible.

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  20. @Paul Amrhein:

    "Immaterial things, for example angels, have forms. However the angelic form does not mix with prime matter in a way which produces signate matter."

    According to Aquinas, angelic forms don't mix with prime matter at all. Immaterial things are, well, immaterial. ;-)

    "The human soul, though immaterial, does. But what is the difference that makes the difference? I suggest that is is man’s status as microcosm. Why? Because the microcosm is 'the measure of all things'. How? A part that does not in its way 'contain' reflect, or refer back to, the whole, cannot find its place within it."

    How does this distinguish a human form from, say, the form of a cat or an eggplant? Do the parts of cats and eggplants not "contain," reflect, or refer to the wholes of which they are parts?

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  21. … or, if the idea is that the human form produces signate matter by the human substance's "containing," reflecting, or referring to, the whole, how is it that the forms of cats and eggplants (which on this view presumably don't do so) can produce signate matter?

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  22. @Scott
    “ Immaterial things are, well, immaterial. ;-)”

    This, of course, occurred to me *after* I had posted.

    “Do the parts of cats and eggplants not "contain," reflect, or refer to the wholes of which they are parts?”

    Yes they do. But the form “cat” does not reflect the universe or the created order as a whole, unlike the form “man.” For example, the human body contains all ninety-two naturally occurring chemical elements. As far as I know man is unique in this regard.

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  23. @Paul Armhein:

    "This, of course, occurred to me *after* I had posted."

    Happens to me a lot. ;-)

    "[T]he form 'cat' does not reflect the universe or the created order as a whole, unlike the form 'man.'"

    Okay, I'm starting to see what you're driving at here. But how does the fact that the human form (presumably via its intellect, which is capable of receiving all forms) make it uniquely suitable for producing signate matter?

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  24. Yikes' "But how does the fact that the human form can reflect the universe or the created order as a whole …"

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  25. @Scott

    This is going to take a while.

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  26. @Scott

    “The matter that is the principle of individuation is, in Aquinas’s view, matter as made distinct by *quantity or dimension — designated matter,* matter “marked-off” as it were from other matter […]” SM page 199

    Aristotle defined quantity (roughly) as “things which are mutually external.”

    An island, seen from above, appears to be an isolated thing. Seen from below sea level however, an island looks like a mountain, one with the earth. The island only gets the strength it needs to stand out via its connection with the whole. A chain of islands, from a certain point of view, appears to be a set of mutually external things. From a different point of view however, it is clear that the islands in the chain are deeply connected. Likewise, the “mutually external” things of signate matter are ultimately made of the same thing, prime matter. They are distinct but ultimately inseparable.

    Fine, but where does man come into this? Why is this not simply the nature of things?

    Ugh. More work to do.

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  27. @Glenn

    Sorry, I was spirited away. It actually took me a while to get used to the symphonic movement format of your song, but once I did I also, like Scott, thought it was richly gorgeous.

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  28. @Scott

    I’m throwing in the towel for now on the connection between the microcosm and signate matter.

    Levels.

    Prime matter. Pure potential for the reception of form.
    Signate matter. “Matter considered together with its dimensions, but abstracting from substantial form.” This reminds me of mass as quantity of matter, considered without regard to substantial form - a certain quantity of matter whether it is a lump of lead or of gold.
    Second matter. “Matter already actuated by form.” An actual lump of lead or of gold.

    (Quotations from Bernard Wuellner’s *Dictionary of Scholastic Philosophy*)

    I once thought that to be a piece of matter was to have mass. Apparently, according to the Higgs theory, mass is the result of an interaction of certain particles with the Higgs field. I think of the polarity of the tiny magnets formed when iron filings are placed in a magnetic field. Mass, like polarity, appears as the result of the interaction. Prime matter is a little like the particles before they interact with the Higgs field. Signate matter is like the mass or bare quantity of matter which results from the interaction. Second matter is like the lump of actual lead or of gold.

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  29. Step2,

    Sorry, I was spirited away.

    Oh, that is nice. ;)

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  30. In fact, one or two of you might be interested in my own music. Or not.

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  31. Scott,

    My guess is you wrote that [You] Don't Mind If It Rains A Little before finding out that, uh oh, the "rains were slating down" At The Harbor. Just a hunch, mind.

    I found it delightful.
    ;)

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  32. @Scott

    I've got "Don't Mind if it Rains a Little" stuck in my head and I like it.

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  33. Thanks, guys. And Glenn, you're right.

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  34. “Authentic” homosexuality, the definition goes, is more or less exclusive, involuntary, and, for all moral, legal, or medical purposes, unchangeable. The latter two features may be discerned in various ways. Probably the most convincing evidence is that despite social censure, illegality, imprisonment, medical stigmatization, psychiatric torture, schoolyard taunting, back-alley beating, mutilation, and murder, the orientation persists. Also, of course, homosexuals themselves testify that they experience their orientation as though it were fixed at birth, whatever science may finally have to say about it.
    The same can be said of pedophiles, rapists, and many other kinds of criminals or persons with compulsive disorders. Conceding for sake of argument a biological component does not legitimize an act. I am not saying that you argue such; I am simply peeling away some tangents. Many pro gay-rights advocates repeatedly defend same-sex attraction (SSA) as biologically driven and, therefore, free from moral culpability. There are genetic normalities and genetic abnormalities (e.g. cystic fibrosis). The fact that a person may be X due to genetics does not imply that it is normal to be X or that such a person shouldn’t be treated for X. If it is proved that pedophiles are “born that way,” we would not say that it is good for an adult to have sex with a child—even if that child wants it (Feser has argued similarly in books like The Last Superstition). Hence, if it is proved that SSA is caused by a genetic defect or a chemical imbalance, it follows that the medical community would seek to correct the defect or imbalance, no?
    … but there are some here who seem to deny that homosexuality exists at all as a settled orientation, and I think it's important to get clear about that.
    The relevance of “settled orientation” (per above) is what I question. I think we all agree that practically all human beings are biologically equipped for heterosexual reproduction. The overwhelming majority of human beings are attracted to the opposite sex. The fact that there are persistent groups throughout human history that do not conform to Natural Law bears no relevance to the legitimacy of the law. The persistence of pedophilia throughout human history does not cause me to question my opposition to pedophilia. It is unnatural for an adult to desire sex with a child. It is equally unnatural for a man to desire sex with a man. Biological defects in humans or animals do not redefine what is normal. Hence, it is irrelevant whether somebody has “settled” their orientation.
    That’s all well and good, you may say, but where is the ought? The ought is that certain persons should tell the truth to society about what is or isn’t normal, that persons with abnormalities should desire to be normal, and that persons should refrain from unnatural impulses, no matter how persistent.

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  35. @Scott

    Let’s try this. (Matter and the microcosm again.)

    The microcosmic form is the whole-within-the-whole par-excellence. (A microcosm therefore has an inside and an outside.) It is the formal cause of every other whole within a whole. (From here I will use Tyler Volk’s word “holon” in place of “whole-within-the-whole.”) Things would not be countable if they were not holons. Countable things all instantiate the microcosmic form *to some degree*, at least as far as having an inside and an outside.

    Matter, as principle of individuation, has its formal cause in the form of man as microcosm.

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  36. Hello, Ed.

    What do you make of this post using the 4 Causes to explain transgenerism: https://catholictrans.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/aristotles-four-causes-for-transgenderism/

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