Sunday, February 26, 2012

Popper contra computationalism

Karl Popper was an important critic of materialist theories of the mind.  His most significant and original criticism is an argument against the possibility of a causal theory of intentionality -- an argument I discuss at length in my recent paper “Hayek, Popper, and the Causal Theory of the Mind.”  But Popper also put forward, albeit sketchily, an argument that implies the impossibility of a computational theory of the mind in particular.  The argument is presented in The Self and Its Brain, a book he co-wrote with neuroscientist John Eccles.  It foreshadows arguments later presented by John Searle and by proponents of what has come to be known as the “argument from reason,” such as Victor Reppert and William Hasker.

As I note in my recent paper (and had reason to note in an earlier post), Popper distinguishes four major functions of language.  There is, first of all, the expressive function, which involves “an outward expression of an inner state” (The Self and Its Brain, p. 58).  Here language operates in a way comparable to the sound an engine makes when it is revved up, or an animal’s cry when in pain.  The second, signaling function adds to the expressive function the generation of a reaction in others.  Popper compares it to the danger signals an animal might send out in order to alert other animals, and to the way a traffic light signals the possible presence of cars even when there are none about.  The difference between the expressive and signaling functions would seem to parallel Fred Dretske’s distinction between “natural meaning” (or meaningn) and “functional meaning” (or meaningf), which I discussed some time back in a post on Dretske.  Meaningn or “natural meaning,” it will be recalled, amounts to nothing more than an effect’s indicating the presence of its cause, as spots on the face indicate the presence of measles.  There is no possibility of misrepresentation here, since an effect will meann whatever it is that happens to cause it.  Hence if the spots on someone’s face were caused, not by measles but instead by an allergic reaction of some sort, then that, rather than measles, is what they will meann.  Popper’s “expressive function” seems more or less the same insofar as he appears to think that an effect (the sound of the engine, the animal’s cry of pain, or someone’s angry and spontaneous utterance of the appropriate expletive when stepping in something at the dog park) will “express” whatever inward state it is that happens to cause it.  The possibility of misrepresentation only clearly enters the picture with the “signaling function,” just as it does (at least if Dretske’s account succeeds) with meaningf or “functional meaning.”  An internal state or utterance might meanf that such-and-such is present even when it is not; similarly, it might in Popper’s sense “signal” the presence of something (predators, cars, or the headache your wife claims she is having) even when that something is not really there.  

Popper allows that these two elementary functions of language might be explicable in causal terms.  What he regards as inexplicable in such terms are the remaining two functions.  The descriptive function of language involves the expression of a proposition, something that can be either true or false.  The paradigm here would be the utterance of a declarative sentence, such as “Roses are red,” “Two and two make four,” or “There is a predator in the area.”  Notice that the latter example differs from an animal’s cry of warning in having a conceptual structure.  A bird’s squawk might cause another bird to feel fear and take flight.  What it does not do is convey an abstract concept like eagle, predator, or danger, and thus it does not convey the sort of propositional content that presupposes such concepts.  (Popper tentatively allows at p. 58 of The Self and its Brain that at least some animal behavior “may perhaps” involve a descriptive component and not mere signaling, giving the bee’s dance as a possible example.  I don’t find this plausible myself, but nothing in what follows rides on the issue.)  Finally, the argumentative function of language involves the expression of an inference from one or more propositions to another in a manner than can be said to be either valid or invalid, as when we reason from All men are mortal and Socrates is a man to the conclusion that Socrates is mortal.

It is Popper’s treatment of the “descriptive function” of language that indicates what he takes to be problematic about the notion of a causal theory of intentionality.  Again, I examine his argument against the possibility of such a theory in detail in “Hayek, Popper, and the Causal Theory of the Mind.”  It is in Popper’s treatment of the “argumentative function” that we find his implicit objection to computational theories of the mind.  (See The Self and Its Brain, pp. 75-81.)  Like the descriptive function, the argumentative function is something that in Popper’s view cannot be accounted for in causal terms, and he gives a separate argument to this effect.  Though he does not claim that this argument strictly refutes materialism, he says that it shows “that materialism has no right to claim that it can be supported by rational argument”; in particular, it shows that materialism, even if it were true, “is incompatible with… the acceptance of the standards of critical argument” insofar as “these standards appear from the materialist point of view as an illusion, or at least as an ideology” (p. 81).  The nerve of Popper’s argument is contained in the following passage:

The property of a brain mechanism or a computer mechanism which makes it work according to the standards of logic is not a purely physical property, although I am very ready to admit that it is in some sense connected with, or based upon, physical properties.  For two computers may physically differ as much as you like, yet they may both operate according to the same standards of logic.  And vice versa; they may differ physically as little as you may specify, yet this difference may be so amplified that the one may operate according to the standards of logic, but not the other.  This seems to show that the standards of logic are not physical properties.  (The same holds, incidentally, for practically all relevant properties of a computer qua computer.) (p. 79)

Unfortunately, while this is suggestive, Popper does not develop the argument in a formal way; the passage quoted is taken from an imagined dialogue between a “Physicalist” and an “Interactionist,” and Popper lets the responses of the latter stand in for an explicit formulation.  But the overall thrust of the argument can be reconstructed by comparison with some clearly related ideas to be found in the work of John Searle, on the one hand, and the work of proponents of what has been called the “argument from reason” on the other.

The context makes it evident that Popper intends to make both a narrow point against any attempt to explain human rationality specifically on the model of the modern digital computer, and a more general but related point against any materialist attempt to explain rationality in causal terms.  It is with respect to the former point that we find a clear parallel with Searle.  In the passage quoted, Popper says that “practically all relevant properties of a computer qua computer… are not physical properties.”  This may seem odd given that he also allows that “the property of… a computer mechanism which makes it work according to the standards of logic is… in some sense connected with, or based upon, physical properties.”  But Popper also points out that the reason a computer operates according to logical principles is that it “has been designed by us – by human minds – to work like this” (p. 76).  Its operations mirror the semantic features of linguistic symbols and their logical relationships, just as the words written in ink on a piece of paper do; but the semantics and the logical relationships are no more inherent to the physical properties in the case of the computer than they are in the case of the ink marks.  In both cases they are imparted to the physical phenomena by us – by programmers and users in the case of computers, and by writers and readers in the case of written words – rather than derived from the physical phenomena.  Hence they can hardly provide a model of how rational thought processes might be explained in purely physical terms.

Searle’s version of this line of argument emphasizes that the key notions of the modern theory of computation – “symbol manipulation,” “syntactical rules,” “information processing,” and the like – are not definable in terms of the properties attributed to material systems by physical science, but are observer-relative, existing in a physical system only insofar as some interpreting mind attributes computational properties to it.  Hence the very idea that the mind might be explained in terms of computation is incoherent.  The argument can be summarized as follows:

1. Computation involves symbol manipulation according to syntactical rules.

2. But syntax and symbols are not definable in terms of the physics of a system.

3. So computation is not intrinsic to the physics of a system, but assigned to it by an observer.

4. So the brain cannot coherently be said to be intrinsically a digital computer.

(Searle develops this argument in his paper “Is the Brain a Digital Computer?” and in chapter 9 of his book The Rediscovery of the Mind.  Note that this argument is different from Searle’s better known “Chinese Room” argument.)

There is a clear parallel between this Popper-Searle argument against a computational theory of rationality and Popper’s argument against causal theories of intentionality (which I examine in the paper linked to above).  In both cases, the materialist or physicalist is accused of making use of notions (certain causal notions in the one case, computational ones in the other) to which he is not entitled given his working assumption that the only genuine features of reality are those describable in the language of physical science.  

It is in his application of this basic idea to a critique of any possible causal account of rationality that Popper’s position resembles the anti-materialist “argument from reason.”  This is a label that has recently come to be applied to a family of related arguments to be found in the work of thinkers as diverse as Popper, J. B. S. Haldane (whom Popper cites as an influence), C. S. Lewis, Alvin Plantinga, Victor Reppert, and William Hasker.  (For a useful overview, see Reppert’s article “The Argument from Reason” in William Lane Craig and J. P. Moreland, eds., The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology.  I discuss and defend the argument in chapter 6 of Philosophy of Mind.)  There are significant differences between these writers’ respective statements of the argument, but a “generic” version might go as follows:

1. Materialism holds that thinking consists of nothing more than the transition from one material process in the brain to another in accordance with causal laws (whether these transitions are conceived of in terms of the processing of symbols according to the rules of an algorithm à la computationalism, or on some other model).

2. Material processes have their causal efficacy, including their ability to generate other material processes, only by virtue of their physical properties (i.e. those described by physical science), and not by virtue of any meaning or semantic content that might be associated with them.  (For example, punching the symbols “1,” “+,” “1,” and “=” into a calculator will generate the further symbol “2” whether or not we associate the standard arithmetical meanings with these symbols or instead assign to them some eccentric meanings, because the electronic properties of the calculator alone are what determine what symbols get displayed.  Similarly, neural processes that are in fact associated with the thought that all men are mortal and the thought that Socrates is a man would still generate the neural process that is in fact associated with the thought that Socrates is mortal even if these neural processes had all been associated with some other meanings instead, because the neurophysiological properties of the processes alone are what determine which further processes get generated.)

3. But one thought can serve as a rational justification of another thought only by virtue of the meaning or semantic content of the thoughts.  (For example, it is only because we associate the symbols “1,” “+,” “1,” “=,” and “2” with the standard meanings that “1 + 1 = 2” expresses an arithmetical truth.  Similarly, it is only because “All men are mortal,” “Socrates is a man,” and “Socrates is mortal” have the meanings they do that the first two sentences logically entail the third, and only when the neural processes in question are associated with the corresponding thoughts that the first two provide a rational justification for believing the third.)

4. So if materialism is true, then there is nothing about our thought processes that can make one thought a rational justification of another; for their physical and causal relations alone, and not their semantic and logical relations, determine which thought follows which.

5. So if materialism is true, none of our thoughts ever is rationally justified.

6. But this includes the thoughts of materialists themselves.

7. So if materialism is true, then it cannot be rationally justified; the theory undermines itself.

The upshot of this argument is that instantiating causal relations, of whatever sort, does not by itself amount to instantiating logical relations; and this is precisely what Popper is getting at in the passage above when he says that “brain mechanisms” or “computer mechanisms” may “differ physically as little as you may specify, yet this difference may be so amplified that the one may operate according to the standards of logic, but not the other.”  Hence even if we concede that certain causal processes are necessary conditions for our reasoning logically (which Popper allows insofar as he says that our ability to follow standards of logic is “in some sense connected with, or based upon, physical properties”), they are not sufficient conditions – in which case there can be no (purely) causal explanation of our ability to reason logically.

Step 2 of the argument seems to follow from the standard materialist assumption that whatever happens in the natural world supervenes on what happens at the microphysical level of nature – the level of the basic particles described by physics and the laws governing them – together with the further materialist assumption that meaning or semantic content is not a microphysical property, whatever else the materialist wants to say about it.  That this appears to make the meanings of our thoughts “epiphenomenal” or causally irrelevant to what happens in the world is known as “the problem of mental causation.”  Of course, the meanings of our thoughts seem to have an effect on what we say and do; in particular, it certainly seems to us that we judge an inference like All men are mortal and Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal to be rational because of the meanings associated with these words, and would not judge it to be rational if they had some different content.  But Popper’s point is that, if materialism is true, then we can have no grounds for believing that what seems to be the case really is the case.  Perhaps the inference in question is in fact irrational, while an inference that seems irrational to us, like All men are mortal, and Grandma drives a Buick, therefore robots are stealing my luggage is a paradigm of rational thinking.  Perhaps we don’t see this for the same reason the calculator would spit back “2” in response to the sequence “1 +1 =” even if the latter set of symbols expressed the question Does Grandma drive a Buick? and the former expressed the bizarre answer No, robots are stealing my luggage – namely for the reason that only the physical properties of events occurring in both calculators and brains, and not any semantic or logical properties associated with them, determine what effects they will generate.

For this reason Popper claims that materialism tends to reduce the argumentative function of language no less than the descriptive function to the sub-rational expressive and signaling functions, and thereby tends also to “make us blind to the difference between propaganda, verbal intimidation, and rational argument” (The Self and Its Brain, p. 59).  Now Popper presumably thought that his friend F. A. Hayek’s account of the mind was open to this sort of criticism, just as it was open to the criticism I discuss in “Hayek, Popper, and the Causal Theory of the Mind.”  There is irony in this, for Hayek himself accuses others of what Popper implicitly accuses him.  Hayek argued in The Counter-Revolution of Science, an important critique of scientism, that “the ground for a thorough irrationalism” lay implicit in any view of human beings aimed at “uncovering hidden causes which, unknown to the thinker, have determined his conclusions.” (p. 159).  His target was the relativist idea that a person’s race or class situation determines what he thinks.  Popper’s claim is that the materialist view that our thoughts are determined by the hidden causal processes uncovered by physical science is no less implicitly irrationalist.

265 comments:

  1. I know the difference between physics and metaphysics. Metaphysics is the study of possible worlds (i.e. those that exist in one's own mind.) Physics is the study of the actual, real, external world. The claim that metaphysics is more general than physics, rather than merely seeming to be is exactly what's under dispute here.

    It's official, guys. We're being trolled.

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  2. The combox doesn't got past 200 posts.

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  3. Ray: When you ask whether something is explainable, do you mean...

    What I mean is - does the explanation fully account for what a thing is?

    If you are a reductionist, you believe that all things can ultimately be explained (accounted for) by appeal to the properties of their constituent parts.

    I was asking if the design of a baseball can be explained that way.

    My contention is that it can't, that other factors (i.e. minds) contributed to the makeup of the baseball and therefore its material properties do not fully account for what it is.

    Oh and BTW, you are correct about God having active potency.

    Dr. Feser confirmed it for me here (see his post on January 29, 2012 11:28 AM).

    I quote:
    Edward Feser said...
    Hi Daniel,

    Yes, when it is said that God is pure actuality and devoid of potency, what that means is that He is devoid of any passive potency (the capacity to be affected by anything) whatsoever. But He is supreme in what is sometimes called active potency or power -- the capacity to affect other things. ("Potency" is also a word for power, after all -- as in "omnipotent.") See Summa Theologiae I.25.1:

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1025.htm

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  4. Ray,

    Can I repeat the observation of just about everyone that you are extremely confused and do not know what you about.

    This appears to be why you completely misunderstand distinctions between metaphysics and philosophy and natural sciences and other disciplines. When talking about the 'principle of proportionate causation' I did not mean the conversion of mass, obviously and when talking about the 'principle of causality' the string of irrelevant aspects of physical sciences and mathematics you compulsively brought up, again quite obviously. Exactly how Russell's paradox or Godel's theorem refuted the principle of causality I don't know, and doubt you or anyone else has the slightest idea how they could (because they haven't!) either.

    I have little respect for the metaphysical and philosophical knowledge of contemporary natural scientists, but I respect their knowledge in their domains, at least as long as they do not trespass onto philosophical territory.

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  5. seriously the blog only displays the first 200 posts.

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  6. @Anonymous:

    "seriously the blog only displays the first 200 posts."

    You will probably not see this but: click on "Read More". On the bottom of the post you will find links to Newest, Newer.

    But yeah, the comments page is borked.

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  7. Daniel Smith

    I believe that in cases where a complete physical description of a thing can be produced, nothing more can be known about the thing.

    There are some issues regarding how you separate the physical description of a thing from a physical description of its environment (especially at scales where quantum mechanics is important.) But yes, I am of the opinion that there is no level of understanding available to human knowledge more basic than physics.

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  8. Re: Daniel Cont.

    I suppose I should also add the qualification that higher level theories may allow you to predict what a thing will do next much faster than a low level physical description. So a prediction may even be feasible in the first case but not the second, for lack of computational resources. But I think that in cases where predictions are possible from both levels of description, they will give the same answers, and if they didn't that would be tantamount to saying that one or the other theory is wrong.

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  9. Daniel cont.

    And yes, I consider theory of mind, or as it's more commonly known, "psychology", or "brain and cognitive science", to be just one of these higher level theories that is constrained not to contradict physics.

    This should be clear because all our ways of knowing about other minds, or reporting what we know about our own minds, are physical. (not just MRI, EEG, brain dissection and surgery, but also audible speech, visible writing, hand signs etc.) Now I suppose you could say I "can't know what it's like to be you," but I don't think that's quite right. I think what you really mean is "I cannot be the same person as you." i.e. I believe your relationship with your conscious experience is not merely one of knowledge, but one of identity.

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  10. >I believe that in cases where a complete physical description of a thing can be produced, nothing more can be known about the thing.

    The above is itself a metaphysical/philosophical view not a scientific one.

    This view is called Scientism. It is at worst a self-contradictory view

    Part One
    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2010/03/1174

    It's also an incorrect view

    Part two
    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2010/03/1174

    You don't know philosophy and your "definition" of philosophy and metaphysics is bull****.

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  11. As for "Active Powers" Feser said

    QUOTE"Yes, when it is said that God is pure actuality and devoid of potency, what that means is that He is devoid of any passive potency (the capacity to be affected by anything) whatsoever.

    But He is supreme in what is sometimes called active potency or power -- the capacity to affect other things. ("Potency" is also a word for power, after all -- as in "omnipotent.") See Summa Theologiae I.25.1:END QUOTE

    Ok my bad I misunderstood and equivocated between active potency verse mere potency.

    I admit and correct my mistake.

    But that having been said it is still incorrect to say "God can have active potency, but nothing else can.."

    So Ray still gets an F.

    God is Supreme in Active Potency but it nowhere argues God exclusively has active potency.

    God alone is the only thing that is Purely Actual and nothing else can be but that is not the same as saying only God is actual.

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  12. BenYachov

    So Feser's objection to "scientism" is that science can't be justified to someone who doesn't believe science works (at least in the general sense that one can learn from empirical data.) Show me such a person, and I might care, but probably not. You also can't justify science to a lump of coal.

    Can you justify Thomism to someone who doesn't buy into the premises of Thomism? It would appear not.

    Feser claims Thomism justifies science -- i.e. it's possible for Thomism to be false and science true, but not vice versa. If so, Thomism is strictly less likely to be true than science, so you're better off not making the extra assumption.

    In any event, I have seen nothing remotely worthy of the label "knowledge" that had no empirical consequences, and plenty that did. Since my premises allow me to learn from empirical data, I think that justifies rejecting Thomist Metaphysics, or any other knowledge claim with no empirical consequences. (and I didn't even have to assume it a priori.)

    I thought you were gone for good. What happened?

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  13. Daniel

    On the baseball. Design is not part of the baseball, it's a hypothesis for explaining how the baseball got there. Very different.

    Despite what you've heard, positing design is a perfectly respectable part of science (it's called archaeology) but you need three things to make it work.

    1) You need to know that it's likely that someone capable of designing a thing as structured as the object in question was in the right place at the right time. (There's ample evidence that humans have been on Earth for long enough to do the trick.)

    2) You need to have some idea of what kinds of artifact your proposed designer is likely to design. (There's also plenty of evidence regarding what types of objects humans make.)

    3)Proposed mechanisms not involving minds need to be less likely to produce the observed artifact than designers given considerations 1 and 2.

    ID, proper fails for more specific reasons. Neither conditions 1 nor 2 is present in the case of ID theory, so ID generally ends up positing a designer that does the same thing as natural selection, only faster. The real problems lie with 3, though, since the assumptions they use to get the natural evolutionary process to operate more slowly than observed in the fossil record are grossly unrealistic.

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  14. I know the difference between physics and metaphysics. Metaphysics is the study of possible worlds (i.e. those that exist in one's own mind.)

    Wow, finally there is something truly new.
    Have you tried to make the Random House Dictionary, Britannica and Wikipedia aware of their hopelessly outdated definition of the thing? Please do.

    A friendly atheist.

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  15. There seems to be a lot of snark regarding my proposed definition of metaphysics. Can you demonstrate that my definition of metaphysics is not logically equivalent to your own?

    If so, is it only because your so called "metaphysical truths" are empty words from which a person can draw no deductions? Or is it because you have ruled out all deductions that may lead to embarrassment a priori?

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  16. @Ray you are a jackass.

    >So Feser's objection to "scientism" is that science can't be justified to someone who doesn't believe science works (at least in the general sense that one can learn from empirical data.) Show me such a person, and I might care, but probably not. You also can't justify science to a lump of coal.

    Where does Feser say that? Try actually reading both articles(there is a link to the second one at the end of the first, but we both know you didn't get that far) instead of skimming them. Equating science with scientism is as dumb as Fundamentalists equating sola scriptura with the authority of scripture.

    >Can you justify Thomism to someone who doesn't buy into the premises of Thomism? It would appear not.

    You don't even know what those premises are & this statement tells me you don't want to make the effort to learn. Not even for the simple joy of knowing it so you could at least be an informed atheist.

    >ID, proper fails for more specific reasons.

    Many Thomists Feser & myself included reject ID. Get with the program idiot.

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/05/id-versus-t-roundup.html

    >Can you demonstrate that my definition of metaphysics is not logically equivalent to your own?

    How about you prove that it is logically equivalent? You are the typical Gnu fundie who wants everyone else to jump threw hoops doing doing your homework. You want to put the "burden of empirical proof" on people who don't believe in empiricism or scientism which you assume without proof (philosophical/metaphysical or empirical). Clueless!

    >Since my premises allow me to learn from empirical data,

    Except you can't prove your premises true or false using empirical data. The premises are not empirical facts thus they are not to be believed according to your own standards.

    You would know this if you actually read the article instead of skimming it.

    >I thought you were gone for good. What happened?

    You keep suckering me into believing you are sincere in trying to actually learn about Thomism(learn not believe jackass!). The non-cynic in me want to believe that but you keep throwing evidence to the contrary.

    You have to date refused to learn anything about Thomism and insist on treating it as some exotic archic form of modern ID.

    You are hopeless.

    BTW I give kuddos to the Anon friendly Atheist.

    >If so, is it only because your so called "metaphysical truths" are empty words from which a person can draw no deductions? Or is it because you have ruled out all deductions that may lead to embarrassment a priori?

    The "friendly Atheist" had the intelligence to at least look up the historical definition from a scholarly source.

    You make up you own & I am suppose to take you seriously numb nuts?

    Seriously?

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  17. Anonymous said..."I wonder if anyone has written a paper contrasting folk accounts of causality and substance with the Thomistic accounts. Of course, you would need to do a lot of work translating the Thomistic terms into everyday language, but I bet you could find some very interesting parallels."
    ROFL


    You can rofl all you want, you horrible anonymous Thomist you, but this just proves that Thomism is nothing more than naive folk psychology dressed up in totally unintelligible language that contradicts itself. And I know all about psychology so there's no point challenging me unless you have the standard uncontrollable Thomistic psychological reaction to being shown wrong.

    And don't bother claiming that Thomistic metaphysics actually does differ from naive folk concepts because that only proves that Thomism, like all metaphysics, is just a made-up system of wishful thinking that is not connected to reality. You can take it from me, because I understand all the terminology exactly, and it's only systems that are entirely measurable against physical reality that are true, like physics, which has no metaphysical premises. And you don't need to study any made-up jargon or read any books about it either.

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  18. >Can you justify Thomism to someone who doesn't buy into the premises of Thomism? It would appear not.
    >Can you demonstrate that my definition of metaphysics is not logically equivalent to your own?

    Shorter BenYachov: No.

    The rest is nothing but whining and refuting claims I never made.

    But this one is a persistent misconception that I ought to correct:

    Except you can't prove your premises true or false using empirical data. The premises are not empirical facts thus they are not to be believed according to your own standards.

    No one ever said anything about "proving" here. Let me rephrase what I said to be more precise "all (or at least nearly all -- I don't consider encyclopedias to be infallible) knowledge claims uncontroversial enough to be printed in an encyclopedia have empirical consequences"

    (This seems pretty much equivalent to what I said, unless you think encyclopedias have no value in establishing what constitutes knowledge.) In any event neither my statement, nor Hume's original statement of similar sentiments is self refuting (there are other criteria for what constitutes "sophistry and illusion" logically independent of those given by Hume, so his famous quote was, in fact, learned from experience.) Now of course you can reject the premise, but that is dangerously close to rejecting not just "scientism" as you call it, but science as well.

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  19. BenYachov

    also, to head off one possible source of confusion: The premise is
    "it is possible to gain knowledge from experience."

    While that statement is not learned from experience, it does have empirical consequences, so the other statement (even stated perhaps more categorically than I would generally be comfortable with): "all knowledge has empirical consequences" does not refute it.

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  20. @RAy

    >Shorter BenYachov: No.

    So you can't prove your made up personal definition of metaphysics is logically equivalent to our historal one yet you assume it is without proof while demanding proof from us?

    Typical Gnu troll sophistry.

    >The rest is nothing but whining and refuting claims I never made.

    Says the disengenous dirtbag who claimed "Feser's objection to "scientism" is that science can't be justified to someone who doesn't believe science works".

    Where does he make that claim? He doesn't, you made it up! Now you are playing the Troll card of "But you are misrepresenting me!" & I notice without giving any clear examples.

    Give me a break Gnu!

    >No one ever said anything about "proving" here.

    No I said you don't even know or understand the premises of Thomism that you think you deny. But you are militant in your kneejerk Scientism & you clearly don't even know how to justify said belief in scientism or tell the difference between Scientism and science.

    Nice attempt at deflection.

    >"all (or at least nearly all -- I don't consider encyclopedias to be infallible) knowledge claims uncontroversial enough to be printed in an encyclopedia have empirical consequences".

    Having empirical consequences is not the same as claiming all knowledge is empirical or only empirical knowledge is real or reflects reality.

    Your "rephrase"(back peddling) at best is a trival claim.

    Hume's philosophy is a competeing metaphysical position to Thomism and classic metaphysics. But it is still only a metaphyscial/philosophical one not a scientific or empirical one. It has to be justified by logical philosophical argument. Feser, Anscombe and even Atheist philosopher David Stove have all shown Hume is funamentalally an irrationalist.

    But I doubt you understand the rational for Hume. Indeed like most Gnu types you learned Hume philosophical maxiums & hold them by rote as your default view but have never looked directly at them or questioned them.

    You just except them as mindless dogma use them to judge reality according to scientism and never ever think outside the box.

    That is an additional problem of yours.

    Anyway I repeat learn the backround material or f*** off.

    I can't repeat that enough.

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  21. BenYachov

    You have learned by rote (incorrectly) that there is a successful refutation of views like mine, but you do not know it. As good Ludwig once said

    "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent"

    I suggest you heed his words.

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  22. >You have learned by rote (incorrectly) that there is a successful refutation of views like mine, but you do not know it.
    As good Ludwig once said

    >"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent"

    >I suggest you heed his words.


    What has everyone else been telling you on this very blog?

    Chuzpah alert!

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  23. The Problem Ray is that like most clueless Gnus who come here you have been wasting our time trying to have a scientific argument with us(& we don't dispute the findings of science) while we have been trying have a philosophical argument.

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  24. Ray: I believe that in cases where a complete physical description of a thing can be produced, nothing more can be known about the thing.

    and...
    On the baseball. Design is not part of the baseball, it's a hypothesis for explaining how the baseball got there. Very different.

    I disagree with both of your points because...

    a) Design IS part of the explanation for the baseball (and that's not a hypothesis, it's reality) and...

    b) We can know that.

    (Before we go any further down this road, let me say this: The first thing you are going to have to do is cleanse your mind from all the ID garbage you've heard because nobody uses those arguments here.)

    That said...
    You cannot account for the shape and makeup of the baseball purely by appeal to its parts. Those parts don't offer a sufficient explanation for why the baseball is round, made of leather, has a cork center and bounces nicely off a bat. You might be able to explain what leather is, or what makes it bounce - but the makeup of the ball doesn't explain why it has that makeup to start with. I hope you can see that such an explanation, without referencing the design, is circular.

    So, in order to fully account for why the baseball is what it is, we have to account for its design - and that's not something that its constituent parts tell us.

    Now before you get all "sciencey" and say "well you need to develop a hypothesis to explain where the baseball comes from", let me say "No, I don't". We know where the baseball comes from, we don't need to hypothesize about it. We are not dealing with hypotheticals here, we're dealing with reality. The baseball was designed and then manufactured. If you're going to explain the baseball (and account for all of what it is and why) you have to include those things (and they're not part of the baseball.)

    Is this making any sense?

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  25. Daniel

    I disagree. ID theory as proposed by Behe and those sorts should be dismissed for scientific reasons, not metaphysical ones. (Which is good, because I think basing court decisions on metaphysics is a violation of the 1st amendment.)

    a) Design IS part of the explanation for the baseball (and that's not a hypothesis, it's reality) and...

    The explanation for the baseball is not part of the baseball. The map is not part of the territory. Two levels of indirection, not one. (we always speak about things at one level of indirection, since we use language to describe them.) But perhaps this is just a matter of semantics.

    b) We can know that.

    The baseball is a bit of an extreme case, since we're dealing with probabilities that are so close to 1 as to make the distinction between near certainty and absolute certainty practically irrelevant. Try again with more doubtful cases. How do you tell a stone tool from a chipped rock? An earthen fortification from a glacial deposit? A pulsar from an alien signaling device? Mount Rushmore from the now defunct "old man in the mountain" in NH?

    Oh also, not to go off topic, but the gold standard would be a disaster. The price of gold has doubled in the past few years, while house prices have fallen in paper dollars. Think how far underwater those houses would be if the mortgages that went with them were denominated in gold. (was reading your blog and saw that.) Anyway, I don't want to hijack the topic, but if you want to argue against the point, take it up with Paul Krugman or Dean Baker (They know more econ than I do and advocate similar positions.)

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  26. Daniel

    In case the analytic approach doesn't work with you, perhaps I should relate this to something closer to your area of interest. If you want an ancient philosopher who really had a feel for the world, I recommend Heraclitus: He got that the world exists prior to being explained, and is felt before it is understood. He knew that "the road up the hill" and "the road down the hill" are two very different names for the same thing. His world was a fire that can be tamed, but never extinguished. Aristotle's world by comparison was a bunch of marionettes laying bricks, with the strings being driven by a wind-up toy. Cold, artificial, dead.

    The world that science reveals is much more like that of Heraclitus than that of Aristotle.

    Other reading recommendations: If you want to understand how a scientist thinks, watch Feynman speak (I especially like the bit about "how do magnets work?" which you can find on youtube. Look up the messenger lectures on Microsoft's Project Tuva if you want more of the younger Feynman.) If you want to know what he knows, read Weinberg's quantum field theory text (that almost certainly won't take unless you already know a LOT of physics and math already, but I like it, so I'm mentioning it anyway.) More realistically, you could try Sean Carroll's "from eternity to here," although this community has ideological objections to the man (Mostly because he briefly argued against Aristotle's first cause argument, by taking him at his word that he was talking about movement, rather than reinterpreting him to be talking about something not contradicted by physics.)

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  27. I think Ray wrote, “I know the difference between physics and metaphysics. Metaphysics is the study of possible worlds (i.e. those that exist in one's own mind.) Physics is the study of the actual, real, external world. The claim that metaphysics is more general than physics, rather than merely seeming to be is exactly what's under dispute here.”

    I believe this is mistaken.

    Metaphysics literally means, “the ones after the physicals.”

    Aristotle’s editor, probably Andronicus of Rhodes, took 14 books of Aristotle’s writing and put them in one section, which happens to come after what is now called Aristotle’s Physics.

    So Metaphysics is those topics that are discussed in the book that comes after "The Physics."

    Aristotle did not use the term metaphysics. He does use the terms “first philosophy”, “first science”, “wisdom”, and “theology”.

    Some philosophers and historians of philosophy define the difference between ‘The Physics’ and the ‘Metaphysics’ as being that the former speaks of things that change and the latter of things that are unchanging.

    From the ancient period up until the middle ages, metaphysics was the “science” of “being as such”, “the first causes of things”, and “things that do not change”.

    Metaphysics is notoriously hard to define. It has included the issues of the categories of being; universals and particulars.

    It now includes issues of modality de dicto (modality of propositions)(See Kripke, Naming and Necessity, 1972; Plantinga, The Nature of Necessity, 1974) and modality de re (modality of things) (see Lewis, On the Plurality of Worlds, 1986) And then there are the problems of what is space and time, what is mental and physical.

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  28. "The explanation for the baseball is not part of the baseball."

    the design of the baseball is a part of the baseball.

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  29. Ray,
    As we do not observe ourselves living in a quantum superposition, so either the wavefunction collapses or one posits branching. Even with branching, the wavefunction or Schrodinger equation does not tell us the branching point(s). Only the measurement process tells us.

    So it is no objection to the wavefunction collapse to say that it is something external and not experimental in the sense Schrodinger equation is. The branching is subject to exactly the same constraints.

    The quantum mechanics was posited as a theory describing the interaction of microscopic systems with measuring apparatus. The application of quantum mechanics to cosmology and positing of a wavefunction for the entire universe is frankly an extrapolation and a very big extrapolation for that.

    What is the empirical justification for the positing the wavefunction of the universe?. We get paradoxes with cats so why should be assume that the results obtained using universal wavefunctions are sensible?

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  30. Well, Louis.

    It's a bit of an unfair question to ask me to compare my definition of metaphysics to one which explicitly says "metaphysics is hard to define." The bit about modality is clearly about possible worlds, and I'm not sure what "actually" and "potentially" are supposed to mean in Aristotle's metaphysics if they are not meant as modal quantifiers. Ditto for "necessary" and "contingent" in Aquinas. So this should tell us that my definition is in the right neighborhood.

    And then there are the problems of what is space (what it measured by rulers and protractors in combination) and time (what is measured by clocks), what is mental(those things which are described when giving an account of ones own introspection.) and physical (Those things that are studied by physicists -- and usually compounds thereof). These look like scientific questions.

    Gyan
    Even with branching, the wavefunction or Schrodinger equation does not tell us the branching point(s). Only the measurement process tells us.

    This is wrong: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoherence

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  31. Can you demonstrate that my definition of metaphysics is not logically equivalent to your own?

    Are you really so daft?

    It is YOU who peddles a new definition therefore it is up to YOU to demonstrate it is "logically equivalent" with the one or few (none of them mine - can't you read?) commonly in use and accepted.
    So why don't you start with, for example, the Britannica, or Catholic Encyclopaedia, or...Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. In short anything more acknowledged and authoritative than "Ray's Undigest".

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  32. Louis,

    I left out one bit from your definition. Changing (physics) versus unchanging (metaphysics) things. The very question "does this change?" presupposes change. It cannot be coherently asked without mapping the elements of a set of 2 or more elements to the elements of another set. If all the elements of the first set are mapped to the same element, we say there is no change in the image over the first set, but is not the mapping from many to one itself a change? Heraclitus was right. change (physics) is more fundamental than the lack of change (metaphysics).

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  33. Fascinating to see mystics (in another thread) and atheists (here) as fellow travellers along a trail blazed by Herclitus.

    Now Ray seems impressed with noticing "The very question "does this change?" presupposes change." He does not notice that the question he chose no less presupposes "this". How, then, does Ray conclude that change is more fundamental?

    Aristotle understood that being (the "this" that changes, or not) is the first and proper object of understanding; rising immediately from the idea of being is the principle of contradiction or, positively considered, the principle of identity.

    Without this, Ray fails to see that his most fundamental change would not be identical with itself (or with the mapping he for some reason laid out.) Simply, change would always be changing such that it would not always be change, and always be not change. The complete scepticism that follows Heraclitus certainly doesn't seem to prevent Ray from asserting anything.

    Maybe he’ll be back later to psychologize his errors for us. Regardless the mistakes are evident to those who actually bother to read what he types.

    Sadly that suggests I’m more interested in his writings than he is himself!

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  34. Jack. The word "this" means nothing unless you point at something (literally or figuratively) at the same time.

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  35. OK, Ray, if you say so! Are you pointing at something literally or figuratively in your question "does this change?"?

    If so, that something is no less presupposed than change.

    If not, what does your question mean?

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  36. The ought to be good for a laugh.

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  37. I'm pointing at whatever you're pointing at. You seem to be pointing at nothing and calling it God. Either that or you're pointing at yourself.

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  38. Ray, you introduced the question “does this change?”

    To borrow the locution you used to introduce your element mapping jibberjabber: “It cannot be coherently asked without” “this” pointing to some thing.

    The “this” is a pronoun standing for whatever thing the questioner is asking the question about.

    You claimed to admit to your mistakes earlier; if your question (“does this change?”) is asked of a thing then you’ve done nothing to establish change as more fundamental than thing.

    On the other hand “it cannot be coherently asked” elsewise.

    However, if it enables you to engage the rest of my comment I am pointing to a really existing red bell pepper when I ask your question "does this change?"

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  39. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  40. Oh. You're pointing at a red bell pepper. Good. And yes. It changes. The next time you point at the bell pepper, it will be the same in some ways and different in others. Some differences may even be so great that most people would call it a different object entirely. If you cannot tell which is which without me telling you, there is no help for you.

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  41. Also. I said "things that change" are more fundamental than "things that don't" not "change" is more fundamental than "thing"

    Show me a thing that doesn't change, either with time or when you change the definitions of the words you use to refer to it. I don't think you can (but I don't claim to be able to prove it.)

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  42. Ray, as far as I know the question, your question “does this change?” wasn’t posed to answer it. You introduced the question to show that it presupposes change. However your question also presupposes things, and so does the idea of change – this is terminal to your assertion that “Heraclitus was right. change (physics) is more fundamental than the lack of change (metaphysics).”

    I don’t dispute that things change, and if that wasn’t obvious before it should be now. I dispute that change is more fundamental than being and sketched why. You cannot have helped the strength or weakness of your position by your eagerness to talk about anything but the challenge to it. Really, I don’t see how focusing on “this” or “red bell pepper” or suggesting I need help has distracted anyone from the bigger point.

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  43. Ray,
    By your last post then it's clear you haven't a clue what Heraclitus was saying, let alone whether he was right or not.

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  44. Metaphysics is so uncertain that there is still no agreement on whether Heraclitus or Parmenides was correct, but it claims to study "certainties." Physics studies uncertain things and yet is certain to 13 decimal places. This should tell you something.

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  45. I think for Ray to, at least partially, save his face he should commit harakiri.

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  46. If it is true that change is ontologically absolutely prior to everything else then this truth must yield to change too. But the only way a truth may change is to become untruth.

    T.H.

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  47. All the comments phrased in terms of supposed abstract objects such as "truth" "being" and "change" are rather begging the question. Many specific truths (i.e. true statements) cease to be true with time (e.g. "Socrates is a man.") That said, I could care less what is "ontologically prior" to what.

    None of you have demonstrated that any actual knowledge is produced outside of empirical pursuits (in which I include mathematics as well as history) nor have you demonstrated that such a position is self refuting, however much you insist that you have.

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  48. Anyway, seeing as the posters here are now gleefully imagining my death, perhaps I should take that as a signal to be on my way. Daniel it was nice meeting you. Perhaps we shall meet again in a more civilized corner of the internet.

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  49. Ray (if you're still around),

    You said: The explanation for the baseball is not part of the baseball. The map is not part of the territory.

    I was asking for a full explanation for the baseball. You claimed that the parts of a baseball offered "all we can know" about it. That, to me, is absurd. We obviously can know a lot more about the baseball than just what we see when we look at it. There is purpose behind the arrangement of the parts of the baseball that cannot be accounted for without reference to its design.

    The baseball is a bit of an extreme case, since we're dealing with probabilities that are so close to 1 as to make the distinction between near certainty and absolute certainty practically irrelevant. Try again with more doubtful cases. How do you tell a stone tool from a chipped rock? An earthen fortification from a glacial deposit? A pulsar from an alien signaling device? Mount Rushmore from the now defunct "old man in the mountain" in NH?

    Please stop trying to turn this into an ID discussion. This has absolutely nothing to do with ID!!

    We can (and do) know things about the baseball that have nothing to do with its constituent parts. According to you that's impossible. But it's reality. We not only know that it is round - we know why it is round. It was designed by a mind to be round. This mind is separate from the baseball and cannot be extracted from any of its parts - yet we know this mind exists (or existed) and that it is the cause behind the arrangement of the parts that makeup the baseball. We know this. So, in essence, the mind that designed the baseball has as much to do with the properties of the baseball as the parts of the baseball do.

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  50. Ray not donald:

    "actual knowledge" and "empirical pursuits" rest on the principle of contradiction that you reject by holding that "Heraclitus was right."

    "Heraclitus was right. change (physics) is more fundamental than the lack of change (metaphysics)."

    The above is much stronger than "Metaphysics is so uncertain that there is still no agreement on whether Heraclitus or Parmenides was correct;" given an hour or so I half-expect you to assert "Heraclitus was wrong!" But that would be you refuting your self.

    Which brings us to your assertion that no actual knowledge is produced outside of empirical pursuits - how do you know this? If true, will it "cease to be true with time" or as knowledge is an abstract like "truth" "being" and "change" are you "rather begging the question"? (Let's not even start on math as an empirical pursuit).

    From one poster mentioning harakiri it's a stretch to accuse poster*s* here of gleefully imagining your death; personally I'd have been too ashamed to leave that as my parting shot.

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  51. I told Ray repeatedly what to go do with himself with a liberal use of the word F***.

    Now he leaves because someone told him to commit Harikari because of his obvious ignorance and inability to fake it?

    Gnus! Gotta love em.

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  52. Steve Ruble,

    “On my position, brains will "operate as brains" no matter how they are described. Our convention of differentiating the matter within the skull from the skull itself is something we do in order to pick out and talk about that stuff, but the only thing that a brain needs to operate as a brain is to be made of the right things put together in the right way so that it does what we call "operating". I don't think it needs some extra essence or "actual" distinctness to make it work. “

    I’m not sure what you take essence to be. The essence of the brain would surely include (among other things) notions regarding made of a certain kind of stuff and being “put together” in a certain way. It would also include “operating”, in that a dead brain is no longer a true brain. Would you consider a decaying, non-operating object made up brain matter to be actually a brain? If not, then “operating” is essential to the brain to actually be a brain.

    “Insofar as it's correct that our conventions are generated by minds that run on a substrate of brain, I guess it is correct to say that the existence of brains is logically prior to the existence of conventions. But what does not seem to be logically prior is the idea (or convention) of the brain as a distinct entity. I think the matter that composes brains will act the same way no matter how it is conceptualized.”

    I’m having trouble with the sentence that starts with “But”. In the context of the sentence before it, it seems you are saying that the idea/convention of the brain as a distinct entity is not logically prior to the existence of conventions? Sorry, I’ve probably misread you but that seems like a tautology. I have no issue with the last sentence.

    Are you able to state your objections to my argument contra conventionalism another way, I apologise, I am having difficulty figuring out what your counter argument is?

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  53. cont...

    “In such a situation, it seems quite plausible to me that we can set up an "invariance relationship" between the force p of the piston and the distance g traveled by the cube when struck by the piston: if the force is increased to p', the atoms of the cube will all receive an increased impulse from the piston and distance will increase to g' in a predictable way. The whole thing can even be described in an object agnostic way: "if the atoms in cylindrical volume X each have velocity v, after time t the atoms previously in cubical volume Y will be found in cubical volume Z; however, if the atoms in X have velocity v' then the atoms of Y will be found in volume Z'" or something like that. “

    I disagree, you are implicitly assuming your medium sized objects in the above. What is the cylindrical volume X for starters? Does it include only the volume which contains the diamond piston? If not, presumably you will have other atoms within that volume (say, atoms in air molecules) which can potentially have a velocity substantially varied without a corresponding varied distance (hence no invariance relationship established). If you are considering the volume specifically around just the piston, then you are quantifying over just the atoms contained within what we would consider the medium sized object. Also, you could repeat the cause i.e. the atoms within X each having a velocity v, without the effect occurring at all – if we strictly limit ourselves to your supposedly reductionist explanation above. Because, for instance, the volume Y could be full of air molecules rather than carbon atoms, and therefore the distance these atoms travel will be substantially different to those of the diamond cube, and therefore, with the same cause, you will get a different effect (i.e. no invariance established). Do you see what the argument is getting at?

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  54. cont.

    “...and I don't think I understand the rest of that post either. In seems like part of what you're saying is that a thing must be structured in the way that things which are that kind of thing are structured if it is to be that kind of thing, but that seems so obvious that there must be something more that you mean. (Incidentally, I can see why Thomists have constructed their own arcane vocabulary, if the alternative was to write sentences like that one.)”

    To be honest, I’m not sure how you got that from what I was saying, but I’m probably not the greatest communicator. Let me try again anyway. Take a quark. It has a set number of possible interactions with other MPs – but none of these constrain or specify what molecules, for instance, the quark can be a part of. If you want to construct a scientific narrative of how a hydrocarbon molecule is formed, you can’t just appeal to the general laws of interaction between MPs, because these general laws of interaction are the same across all species of possible molecule. Rather, you need something extra – first, you need a narrative describing how quarks are assembled into hydrogen atoms, then these via fusion into higher order atoms such as carbon, then how these atoms are eventually united together in a structure under certain pressures. This narrative is information that is “contained” in the molecule, and represents the formal component of the form/matter composite. Also, the quarks now constituting the hydrocarbon molecule will be constrained by the meta-actions of the molecule.

    Here’s another way of looking at it. Say we have a bunch of lego blocks. We can see that there are various ways and combinations in which they can go together. But knowledge of these possible possible interactions isn’t enough to describe the construction of an X-wing star fighter out of them, or a medieval castle. No, something extra is required, and that is the formal component of the constructed object – its structure if you like. If you have the same number of blocks in both the X-wing and castle, you will need that something extra to be able to explain their difference. And these structures, while still together, form a unified causal whole – if I throw a medieval castle made of lego blocks at a window hard enough, it will break. However, if I throw the same amount of blocks dissembled at the window, it won’t break. Following Alexander’s dictum, to exist is to have causal powers, we can thereby say these unified objects have an existence of their own in addition to their constitutive elements.

    That’s the best I can do, I hope it makes sense.

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  55. @Ray:
    Anyway, seeing as the posters here are now gleefully imagining my death, perhaps I should take that as a signal to be on my way.

    Oh come on. Do you believe anyone can fall for these embarrassing theatrics of yours?
    It is so obvious that you, after being repeatedly exposed as a total dilettante and sloppy thinker, are trying to find excuse for leaving the ring to escape further humiliation so you "interpret" a mocking remark directed at you to be the collective rejoicing at the prospect of your death.
    Pathetic

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  56. Anonymous said… Oh come on. Do you believe anyone can fall for these embarrassing theatrics of yours?

    Well, we fell for his stock "dumb atheist" routine! I did too, at first, but I've come to the conclusion he's just pretending, don't you think? He not only managed to cycle through every caricature in the book without the slightest shred of self-awareness, but with the same impenetrable defensiveness to replies ranging from serious attempts at discussion to Ben's psycho wigging-out. Now that he's used up all possible affronts to reason, I suppose he has run out of clichés. Impressive parody, though.

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  57. Andrew T,

    "I’m not sure what you take essence to be."

    Yah, I'm not sure what anyone takes essence to be.

    "Would you consider a decaying, non-operating object made up brain matter to be actually a brain?"

    Um, yes, I don't think that as soon as you die your skull is suddenly full of something other than a brain. Do you? What would it be?

    WRT to my poorly phrased response to your argument that conventionalism has internal contradictions: I was trying to say that there's no reason that a brain must actually be a "distinct entity" in any metaphysical way for it to do all the things that it does, so the fact that we conventionally refer to brains as distinct from other things has no bearing on the logical consistency of conventionalism.

    --------------------

    Yes, the cylindrical volume X is just that volume occupied by the piston, and the cubical volume Y is just that volume occupied by the diamond cube. I don't see why this is a problem; any description of the movements of sets of particles is going to require a specification of where those particles are to start with, obviously.

    "Because, for instance, the volume Y could be full of air molecules rather than carbon atoms, and therefore the distance these atoms travel will be substantially different to those of the diamond cube, and therefore, with the same cause, you will get a different effect (i.e. no invariance established)."

    Well, yes. And if I take away the window, varying the speed of the baseball won't change the force with which the window breaks, because the window won't break. If you think there's a need for the invariance relationship to persist across any arbitrary rearrangement of the entities involved in the relationship, then I guess I don't understand what you intend to refer to by "invariance relationship".

    -------------------

    Your analogy to Legos made perfect sense to me up to a point, and seems to nicely capture reductionism. What makes a bunch of Legos an X-wing rather than a castle is precisely the fact that they are arranged into what we call an X-wing rather than being arranged into what we call a castle. Each Lego has a certain number of possible relationships it can have with a certain number of other Legos (those which can be put into physical contact with it). When you place the Legos into certain relationships, you get an X-wing; when you assemble them with a different structure (a different set of relationships) you get a castle. Makes sense to me. Then you wrote this:

    "If you have the same number of blocks in both the X-wing and castle, you will need that something extra to be able to explain their difference."

    Something extra besides the fact that an X-wing and a castle are totally different configurations of Legos? I just don't know what you mean. There's nothing else there to be different besides the arrangement of the Legos.

    "And these structures, while still together, form a unified causal whole – if I throw a medieval castle made of lego blocks at a window hard enough, it will break. However, if I throw the same amount of blocks dissembled at the window, it won’t break."

    Try putting the disassembled blocks in a shotgun with a blank round in it and shooting them at the window - I'll bet it'll break then. (You did say "hard enough", after all). Shall we than say that "collections of high speed disassembled Legos" exist as distinct entities, because they have causal powers? In any case, I don't see how the fact that the separated parts of an object have different properties than the whole object is supposed to present a problem to the reductionist. We're totally fine with that idea.

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  58. >Ben's psycho wigging-out?

    I prefer to call it rage-monkey behavior.

    But we will agree to disagree.

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  59. Steve Ruble,

    Unfortunately I don't think we are getting anywhere. My responses to your post will essentially be re-iterations of what I have said already. My suggestion for you if you are serious in engaging with the problems of physical reductionism is to read Real Essentialism by David Oderberg, papers and books by Crawford Elder, and perhaps the new book by Kathrin Koslicki called The Structure of Objects.

    Anyway, thanks for the discussion - all the best.

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  60. Ben/Ed

    Ray=djindra?

    No, I'm not Ray. I've told you in the past that I only use my real name DonJindra or initial/name: djindra. I don't hide behind false identities like you do.

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  61. "For one thing, it might not be true -- does "unicorns are typically portrayed as having healing powers" serve as an explanation for some medieval narwhal hunts?"

    No it doesn't, it is missing something: The medieval hunters thought that unicorns existed and mistakenly identified narwhals as unicorns due to their horns, which they thought had healing powers. The explanation appeals to the desires and incorrect beliefs about unicorns that the medievals held. Desires and beliefs existed. If we could appeal to things that do not exist for explanations, then an atheist could not object when a theist appealed to God in order to explain something.

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  62. What some people dont realize is that this argument applies to any "materialist rational process" and not just the human brain. It applies to computers, other animals, logic machines, or any other "logic system." So attempting to use those in an effort to refute the argument merely begs the question.

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  63. 'Similarly, neural processes that are in fact associated with the thought that all men are mortal and the thought that Socrates is a man would still generate the neural process that is in fact associated with the thought that Socrates is mortal even if these neural processes had all been associated with some other meanings instead'
    This seems unprovable, as well as nonsensical; these neural processes would refer to other neural processes to generate these conclusion; memories of the words themselves, the frontal cortex (which seems to be where we process logical thought), and if the associated neural processes were different, the meaning the brain interpreted from a simulated identical neural process would be different.

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  64. That only works of you assume the meaning is intrinsic to the matter, rather than supervening on it.

    And anyways, the behavior of a neuron depends on voltages and neurotransmitters, not meaning.

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  65. @Please explain

    You are objecting to a materialist premise.

    Join the club.

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