Friday, May 6, 2016

Islamophilia and falsification


Not too long ago I discussed the relationship between liberalism and Islam.  More recently I discussed the logic of falsification.  Let’s now combine the themes.  Former federal terrorism prosecutor Andrew McCarthy recently wrote:

Last year, Americans were horrified by the beheadings of three Western journalists by ISIS. American and European politicians could not get to microphones fast enough to insist that these decapitations had nothing to do with Islam.  Yet within the same time frame, the government of Saudi Arabia beheaded eight people for various violations of sharia -- the law that governs Saudi Arabia.

Three weeks before Christmas, a jihadist couple -- an American citizen, the son of Pakistani immigrants, and his Pakistani wife who had been welcomed into our country on a fiancée visa --carried out a jihadist attack in San Bernardino, California, killing 14 people.  Our government, as with the case in Fort Hood -- where a jihadist who had infiltrated the Army killed 13 innocents, mostly fellow soldiers -- resisted calling the atrocity a “terrorist attack.”  Why?  Our investigators are good at what they do, and our top officials may be ideological, but they are not stupid.  Why is it that they can’t say two plus two equals four when Islam is involved?

McCarthy’s own answer to his question is that due to a “triumph of willful blindness and political correctness over common sense,” our leaders are “unwilling to deal with the reality of Islam [and] have constructed an Islam of their very own.”  It is, McCarthy thinks, this fantasy Islam that they describe and defend, while ignoring actual, empirical, historical Islam.  Regarding terrorist Omar Abdel Rahman, the “Blind Sheikh” whom McCarthy prosecuted following the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, McCarthy writes:

When [Abdel Rahman] said the [Muslim] scriptures command that Muslims strike terror into the hearts of Islam’s enemies… [that] Allah enjoined all Muslims to wage jihad until Islamic law was established throughout the world… [and that] Islam directed Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as their friends, the scriptures backed him up…

[T]he Blind Sheikh’s summons to jihad was rooted in a coherent interpretation of Islamic doctrine.  He was not perverting Islam…

Furthermore, says McCarthy:

Sharia rejects freedom of speech as much as freedom of religion.  It rejects the idea of equal rights between men and women as much as between Muslim and non-Muslim.  It brooks no separation between spiritual life and civil society.  It is a comprehensive framework for human life, dictating matters of government, economy, and combat, along with personal behavior such as contact between the sexes and personal hygiene.  Sharia aims to rule both believers and non-believers, and it affirmatively sanctions jihad in order to do so.

So, McCarthy thinks that in real-world Islam -- as opposed to the imaginary Islam he says politically correct government leaders have constructed -- there is a link between Islamic doctrine on the one hand and, on the other hand, both violence and a rejection of the freedoms taken for granted in modern Western societies.  Is McCarthy right? 

First let’s understand what he isn’t saying.  For one thing, McCarthy writes: 

Habitually, I distinguish between Islam and Muslims.  It is objectively important to do so, but I also have a personal reason: when I began working on national security cases, the Muslims I first encountered were not terrorists.  To the contrary, they were pro-American patriots who helped us infiltrate terror cells, disrupt mass-murder plots, and gather the evidence needed to convict jihadists.  We have an obligation to our national security to understand our enemies; but we also have an obligation to our principles not to convict by association -- not to confound our Islamist enemies with our Muslim allies and fellow citizens.

So, McCarthy is not saying that Muslims in general are terrorists or sympathetic with terrorism.  On the contrary, he acknowledges that many Muslims are firmly opposed to terrorism.  It is not “the people” that are the problem, in McCarthy’s view, but rather “the doctrine.”  But he qualifies this claim too.  He acknowledges that the description of sharia he gives “is not the only construction of Islam,” that “there are multiple ways of construing Islam,” and in particular that “there are ways of interpreting Islam that could make it something other than a call to war.” 

McCarthy’s claim is rather that more violent and illiberal interpretations of Islam, such as the one put forward by Abdel Rahman, are no less plausibly authentic, and indeed have very strong scriptural and legal arguments in their favor -- so much so, in McCarthy’s view, that the more pacific and liberal interpreters “seem to be dancing on the head of a pin.”  Hence, McCarthy concludes, there simply is no basis in fact for the claim that jihadists are “perverting” Islam, or even for the claim that theirs is “not a mainstream interpretation.”  The most one can say is that alternative interpretations are also possible. 

One could, consistently with McCarthy’s basic thesis, go well beyond the qualifications he explicitly makes, and acknowledge that there are many positive aspects to Islam.  For example, we surely ought to admire the genius of Islamic thinkers like Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, Avicenna, Al-Ghazali, and Averroes, and to learn what we can from their works.  There can be no doubt that Islam has produced one of the richest and most durable civilizations of world history.  It is difficult for a devout person of any religion not to be moved by the Muslim call to prayer and the communal piety of the Muslim faithful.  We Catholics can only envy how resistant even non-observant Muslims are to apostasy and heterodoxy (or what counts as heterodoxy by Muslim lights, anyway).  We can and ought to affirm that between Christianity and Islam there is a common ground of Abrahamic and philosophical monotheism (as I have argued here and here). 

But all of that is consistent with McCarthy’s basic claim that there is nevertheless a link between traditional Islamic doctrine on the one hand, and violence and illiberal politics on the other.  Again, is he right?

Many reject such a claim, on the grounds that adherents of other religions, and adherents of no religion at all (as in the case of some atheistic versions of communism), have also sometimes endorsed violence and illiberal politics.  Hence (so the argument goes) there are no grounds for the claim that there is any special connection in the case of Islam.  However, these considerations are hardly sufficient to falsify McCarthy’s position.  For one thing, even if there is a connection between doctrine on the one hand and violence and illiberal politics on the other in the case of other worldviews (as there is with Leninism, for example) it doesn’t follow that there isn’t any special connection in the case of Islam.  Neither McCarthy nor anyone else claims that only Islam, of all worldviews, is especially prone to generate violence, restrictions on freedom, etc.

For another thing, it is superficial merely to note that some Christians (for example) have as a matter of fact resorted to violence, favored restrictions on the freedoms of non-believers, etc.  As I noted in my earlier post on liberalism and Islam, there has from the beginning of Christianity been a clear distinction (even if not always a separation) between the institutions of Church and state, and between the supernatural, heavenly end of human beings and their this-worldly, political ends.  Since the kingdom of God “is not of this world,” there is a clear theoretical basis on which Christian teaching might be implemented without resorting to political or military means.  By contrast, from the beginnings of Islam there has been no distinction between the religious sphere of life on the one hand, and the political and military spheres on the other.  Muhammad was prophet, statesman, and general all rolled into one, and the history of Islam has always reflected this conflation of roles.  Hence there is in Islam an absence of a clear theoretical basis by which the implementation of religious teaching might be separated from any resort to political and military means. 

Hence it is not enough to point to various specific examples of Christians, or Jews, or Buddhists, or whomever, who have committed violent acts, persecuted non-believers, or what have you.  One also has to examine the nature of these various doctrinal systems, so as to see if there is plausibly any essential connection between theory and practice.  And of course, one also needs to consider the frequency of acts of violence, persecution, etc. committed by adherents of one religion compared to those of other religions.  Hence, suppose one could find specific examples of adherents of Jainism who committed acts of violence.  It would be ludicrous to conclude from this that Jainism is as prone to violence as any other religion.  For one thing, one would be hard pressed to find very many (if any) examples of Jain terrorism; and for another thing the centrality of the principle of non-violence to Jainism makes it extremely difficult for any Jain who is so inclined to find in his religion a theoretical rationale for such violence. 

Probably most people would admit that, given its history and the nature of its doctrines, Jainism is plausibly much less likely than other religions are to foster violence, and that this would remain true even if one could find examples here and there of Jains who resorted to violence.  But it would be intellectually dishonest to deny that, by the same token, there might also be a religion that is more likely than other religions are to foster violence, and that this would remain true even if there are many adherents of that religion who reject violence.   That is what McCarthy is claiming to be the case with Islam.

Some parallel examples can elucidate further the nature of McCarthy’s claim.  Consider the thesis that eating foods that are high in sugar or carbohydrates (candy, potato chips, etc.) increases one’s chances of getting cavities.  It would be silly to object to this claim on the grounds that there are many people who eat such foods but who do not get cavities (because they brush their teeth regularly, say); or on the grounds that there are people who get cavities as a result of eating other sorts of food; or on the grounds that there are positive aspects to eating foods high in sugar or carbohydrates (such as the energy boost they provide, or the pleasure they afford).  These points are all true, but they are perfectly compatible with the claim that there is a special causal link between eating such foods and getting cavities.  And we know there is such a link because (a) we find that there is in fact a high correlation (even if not an exceptionless one) between eating such foods and getting cavities, and (b) we can identify specific chemical mechanisms by which such foods can lead to tooth decay. 

Or consider the relationship between smoking and cancer, an example I cited in my recent post on falsification.  It would be ridiculous to deny that there is any special link here, on the grounds that there are many people who smoke but do not get cancer; or on the grounds that many people who don’t smoke also get cancer; or on the grounds that smoking has positive aspects (such as the pleasure and relaxation it affords).  All of this is also true, but it is also all perfectly compatible with the claim that there is a special causal link between smoking and getting cancer.  And we know there is such a link because (a) we find that there is in fact a high correlation (even if not an exceptionless one) between smoking and getting cancer, and (b) we can identify specific physiological mechanisms by which smoking can lead to cancer.  Nor, as I noted in the post on falsification, does a causal link have to be very strong in order to be real.  As I noted there, there is a causal link between syphilis and paresis, even if few people who contract syphilis go on to exhibit paresis. 

Or consider the claim that Protestants tend to know the Bible better than Catholics do.  I’m staunchly Catholic, but I think the claim is probably true, based both on experience and on the fact that it’s just the sort of thing you’d expect to be true given differences between Protestant and Catholic theology.  Like Protestants, Catholics regard the Bible as divinely inspired.  But Catholics also think that there are sources of binding doctrinal authority outside of scripture -- the Fathers of the Church, the decrees of Church councils, the Ordinary and Extraordinary Magisteria of the popes, and so forth.  There’s simply a lot more material that a Catholic feels bound to pay attention to, whereas a Protestant is more likely to think that scripture is all he needs to know.  Naturally, then, Protestants are in general bound to know scripture better than Catholics do, because they are more likely to focus all their attention on it, and it constitutes a much smaller body of literature than what Catholics would say needs to be taken account of.   (By the same token, the Marcionites, who accepted as canonical none of the Old Testament and only parts of the New Testament, may well have known those particular parts better than Protestants do, because they had even less material to focus their attention on.)

Or consider the claim that Quakers and Mennonites are less likely than Catholics to commit terrorist acts.  Again, though I’m Catholic, I think this is bound to be true as well, in light of the fact that Quaker and Mennonite theology is pacifist and Catholic theology is not.  It is just naturally going to be harder for a Quaker or Mennonite to come up with a rationalization for committing some terrorist act given the theological constraints he is committed to.

Now, it would be ridiculous to dismiss these last two claims on the grounds that they must reflect mere “anti-Catholic bigotry.”  Any Catholic who did so could plausibly be accused of oversensitivity and of a failure of objectivity.  Similarly, it would be ridiculous to dismiss the other sample claims considered on the grounds that they must reflect mere “sugarphobic,” “tobaccophobic,” or “syphilisphobic” bigotry.  Anyone who made such bizarre accusations could plausibly be suspected of having some excessive attachment to sugary foods, to tobacco, or to acts of the sort liable to lead to syphilis, an attachment that keeps him from being objective about these things. 

By the same token, it would be ridiculous to dismiss McCarthy’s claim merely on the grounds that it must reflect nothing more than “Islamophobic” “bigotry.”  Indeed, McCarthy could fling an accusation of “Islamophilic bigotry” back at anyone who would make such a claim.  As I pointed out in the post on liberalism and Islam, there are several factors that predispose political liberals too quickly to dismiss the very suggestion that there might be a connection between Islamic doctrine on the one hand and violence and illiberal politics on the other.  For example, the very workability of liberalism as a political project presupposes that what John Rawls called “comprehensive doctrines,” or at least comprehensive doctrines with a large number of adherents, are compatible with basic liberal premises (and thus “reasonable,” as Rawlsian liberals conceive of “reasonableness”). If it turned out there is a “comprehensive doctrine” with a large number of adherents which is simply not compatible with basic liberal premises, that would be a very serious problem for the entire liberal project.  Hence liberals are bound to be reluctant to conclude that there is any such “comprehensive doctrine,” or to look for evidence that might support such a conclusion. 

Then there is the fact that egalitarianism is one of the dogmas of modern liberalism, just as the divinity of Christ is a dogma of Christianity or the divine origin of the Quran is a dogma of Islam.  Many liberals find it almost impossible to understand how even a mildly negative characterization of some religion, culture, or group could be anything but an expression of unreasoning hatred.  Hence epithets like “bigot” play, within liberalism, the same role that words like “heretic” often do within religion.  They are a means of silencing dissenters and sending a warning to anyone even considering dissent from egalitarianism.  The irony is that plugging one’s ears and screaming “Bigot!” at someone who is trying to present a reasoned argument is, of course, itself a kind of bigotry -- perhaps the worst kind, insofar as someone self-righteously in love with the idea that he is the paradigmatic anti-bigot is the least likely of all bigots to see his prejudices for what they are.

Again, see the earlier post on liberalism and Islam for discussion of other aspects of modern liberalism which can predispose many liberals against looking at Islam objectively.  The point for the moment is this.  On the one hand, McCarthy can note that any critic inclined to dismiss his position as mere bigotry should seriously consider that there are reasons why the critic may be himself less objective on the subject at hand than he likes to think he is.  And on the other hand, McCarthy can point to what one finds in Islamic scripture and law, in the history of terrorism during the last few decades, and indeed in the entire history of Islam as evidence in favor of his position.

Of course, that does not by itself demonstrate that McCarthy is right.  But any critic of McCarthy plausibly faces a “falsificationist challenge” of a sort that parallels the falsificationist challenge Antony Flew once raised against theists (a challenge I discussed in the earlier post on the logic of falsification).  Paraphrasing Flew, the challenge might be stated as follows:

What would have to occur or to have occurred to constitute for you a disproof of your claim that there is no special connection between Islam and terrorism, or between Islam and illiberal politics?

In other words, if evidence of the sort McCarthy cites does not establish his claim, what evidence will the critic admit would establish it?  Unless the critic can offer a serious response to this question, he cannot plausibly claim that it is he rather than McCarthy who is free of prejudice.

465 comments:

  1. @mirror: "Give me a coffee break and do yourself a service by serving your own function in life and pretend to think that other humans (if they are humans by the standard of certain Christians) are not doomed to hell."

    Heh. :) You really have no idea who you're talking to.

    Eh, no worries. I wonder about myself sometimes, too.

    You can get back to me after I read *Black Elk Speaks*. But first, I've got to take a heroic dose and talk to the machine elves. Until next time!

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  2. @Omer: "The #19 miracle is not needed as evidence for the Qur'an. / The pure teachings of the Qur'an is more than sufficient for a seeker of full truth."

    How to tell which teachings are the pure ones would seem to be more or less what DNW was asking for.

    If the 19 "miracle" is not necessary, I suggest you not present it next to better arguments, as it makes your approach to arguing for the value of the Qur'an look indiscriminate. "Everything but the kitchen sink," etc.

    Suppose I were trying to argue that you should become a vegetarian, rather than an omnivore. I might provide these reasons:

    1) It will make you healthier.
    2) It is better for the environment.
    3) Hitler was a vegetarian.
    4) I hate plants.

    You might say, Well, I can see what you're getting at; but perhaps some of those arguments take pride of place, and you ought to stick to them, and maybe not bother with the others, at least in certain company.

    As with arguing for vegetarianism, so with arguing for the value of the Qur'an.

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  3. @Omer,

    Sorry, I have been really busy since the last time I posted but have been following along the conversation. I am in agreement with laubadetriste here and do not have much to add to what he has already said.

    My layman impression of the Surah 74 verse 30 is that the "it" there refers to Hell itself and not the Quran. See the verses before it for continuation of thought where it is clearly talking about Hell.

    http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=74&verse=27

    @Ocean D

    I hope you are doing well my brother in humanity. Regarding miracles in the Qur'an, there are many and it is difficult to list them all.

    I have given some and will give more.

    Another miracle is that at least hundreds of thousands of people today and more likely a few million have the entire Qur'an memorized from cover to cover. And of course many tens of millions who have memorized it from the past,

    The Qur'an states in multiple verses that it has been made easy to remember.

    There is absolutely no comparison with any other book in the history of mankind.

    This also relates to another amazing feature of the Qur'an which is it's authenticity.


    There is no doubt about the Quran being the most memorized book but is'nt being a Hafiz of Quran considered a great honor in the Muslim world? Kids are taught to memorize the Quran even before they learn to read or write in any other language. The passion of the people to teach their kids is amazing and praise worthy but not a miracle. Kids are like a sponge where they will memorize anything no matter how tough or easy it will be.

    The Quran is a great book I have no doubts but at the end of the day what does it provide spiritually to a person that some other holy book does not? Yes you can say that it is a miracle and try to prove it but for a true seeker of God what is so unique about it?

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  4. @Mirror

    "...I bet we all do it when we start speaking from an absolutist point of reference (Thomist, Vedantic, Islamic, Communist...)."

    I agree that there are many who are so sectarian that they cannot appreciate the truth in others. The Qur'an is not like that...it is full of wisdom and takes all into account. Please take a look

    @laubedriste

    No, Imam laubadetriste, I am not a heterodox Muslim.

    The book by King means nothing...I can write a book with 19s in it ....here goes...once upon a time there was a a country with 19 towns each with 19 stores each with ....and so on and so on And then.....and then they lived happily ever after. The End.

    The whole point is that if you design 19 in it, then of course there will be 19s in it.

    So the Qur'an is designed with 19 so intricately that it is for all practical purposes impossible for it to be by chance.

    I am very familiar with the book by Salafi scholar Bilal Phillips. I read it...I think about 15 years ago and then I reviewed it again after that.

    Since Rashad Khalifa declared himself to be a prophet, many Muslim scholars who heard about him did not take him seriously. They through the baby out with the bath water.

    Edip Yuksel refuted many points of Philips's book. I agree with much of Philips. Yes, Khalifa exaggerated. But much is true and has been verified.

    I already told you examples of what natural means...it is a obvious to me....if I say that there is book that if you perform a complicated formula with its words, then you will notice that the pattern of number X appears more often than other books...etc.

    That is not natural...if we look hard enough we will find patterns by chance in some oblique way and inconsistent ways.

    But there are numerous 19s int the Qur'an found in connection with the beginning of each surah, with the first revelation, with the first chapter of the Qur'an, with the abbreviated letters, with a large number of natural units of the Qur'an....I am not talking about making some creative complicated formulas.

    The Qur'an states the property of the number of 19 to give certainty of faith for the people of the book and increase faith for the believers and remove doubts for the people of the book and the believers.

    The People of the Book are Jews and Christians and many have accepted Islam based on the 19 code even though a very, very tiny percentage of people have any knowledge about it.

    If, on the contrary, you know how many have converted to Islam but and it is related to the number 19 like the verse says, but it does not have anything to do with code in the Qur'an, then tell me even one such person.

    That itself is enough of a proof.

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  5. @Ocean D,

    My brother in humanity, please see below which is an excerpt of an excerpt of the introduction from a book by Athar Hussain entitled the Message of the Qur'an.

    It describes some of the many inimitable features of the final revelation sent to mankind from God Almighty.

    Please see the remainder of the excerpt at

    http://muslimcanada.org/atharhusain.html#divine

    " AI-Qur'an, the Word of God, is inimitable and unsurpassable not only in the grandeur of its diction, the variety of its imagery and the splendour of its word painting, but also in its meaning, substance, message and profundity. It is "an incomparable book which yields to no abrogation or distortion, and unto which no falsehood could find a way from whatever source, be it of past or future events mentioned therein, a message from the Wise Lord to whom praise is due for the bounties He has bestowed on mankind." (Al-Baidawy -- Commentary of the Qur'an). It is neither a history nor a biography. It is not even an anthology, or metaphysical dialectic, or sublime homiletic. It is not poetry either in spite of its rhythm and cadence and its captivating charm. It is much more than all that. It is the Revelation of God, the undoubted Guidance for mankind, with a universal and eternal meaning and substance. It proclaims the common source of religions and confirms and completes the earlier Revelations.

    Now hath come unto you light from God and a plain Scripture whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guideth them unto a straight path [Qur'an 5:16]
    The Divine Origin of the Qur'an
    This is the scripture whereof there is no doubt, a Guidance unto those who ward off (evil). [Qur'an 2:2]
    A Book which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayst bring forth mankind from darkness unto light, by the permission of their Lord, unto the path of the Exalted in power, Worthy of Praise. [Qur'an 14:1]

    And, those who are endowed with knowledge, can see that the Revelation sent down to thee, O Muhammad, from thy Lord is the Truth; and that it guides people to the path of the Exalted, Worthy of all Praise. [Qur'an 34:6]

    The Qur'an itself testifies that its author is God Himself. It is never the Prophet who speaks in the Qur'an. The scripture addresses him directly or refers to him in the third person. Its literary style and diction are altogether different from the sayings of the Prophet which have been preciously preserved. If ever the Prophet slightly faltered or hesitated, the revelation pulled him up. For instance, when the Prophet was annoyed at the interruption of a blind man while he was in conversation with a Quraish noble (8:1-2) or when he forbade to himself a thing which God had made lawful. On numerous occasions when he was confronted with some baffling problems, he had to wait for revelations to appear. To those who doubt its Divine origin, the Qur'an throws a challenge. It asks them first to imitate its full text, or even to produce ten surahs similar to those in the Qur'an or to create but a single similar surah and finally a surah even slightly resembling one in the Qur'an. The gravity of the challenge can best be appreciated if it is remembered that there are some surahs in the Qur'an which are but one line. The challenge was not limited to the people of the age of the Qur'an's revelation; it is open for all times.
    Qur'an, the Word of God, is not only inimitable in the profundity of its contents and message, but also in the grandeur of its diction, the variety of its imagery and the splendour of its word painting. Its literary form and style surpasses the powers of man and defies imitation. An appraisal of its literary form made by AI-Azhar University runs as follows :

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  6. continued...


    The form of the Qur'an neither reflects the sedentary softness of the townsmen nor the nomadic toughness of the Bedouin. It possesses in right measure the sweetness of the former and the vigour of the latter.
    The rhythm of the syllables more sustained than in prose and less patterned than in poetry. The pauses come, neither in prose form nor in the manner of poetry, but with a different harmonious and rhythmic symmetry.
    The words chosen neither transgress by their banality nor by their extreme rarity but are recognized as expressing admirable nobility.
    The sentences are constructed in a dignified manner which use the smallest possible number of words to express ideas of utmost richness.
    The brevity of expression, the conciseness, attains such a striking clearness that men of ordinary intelligence can understand the Qur'an without difficulty.
    And at the same time there is such a profundity, flexibility, suggestiveness and radiance in the Qur'an that it serves as the basis of the principles and rules for the Islamic sciences and arts, for theology and for the juridical school. Then it is almost impossible in each case to express the idea of a text by one interpretation only, either in Arabic or in a foreign language, even with the greatest care.
    Quranic speech appears to be superhuman in its transcendence of the psychological law that intellect and feelings are always found in inverse proportion to each other. In the Qur'an we find constant cooperation between the two antagonistic powers of reason and emotion, for in the narrations, arguments, doctrines, laws and principles, the words have both a persuasive teaching and an emotive force. The speech throughout the Qur'an maintains a wonderful solemnity and powerful majesty which nothing can disturb.
    Finally, when we pass from the structure of a sentence or a group of sentences dealing with the same object, to the structure of the surah and of the Qur'an as a whole, we find an overall plan which could not have been created by man.

    Expansion of Islam is yet another proof of the Divine character of the Book. As the well-known author and philosopher Frithjof Schuon says: "The supernatural character of the Book does not lie only in its doctrinal content, its psychological and mystical truth and its transmuting magic, it also appears equally in its most exterior efficacy in the miracle of the expansion of Islam. "

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  7. Jeremy Taylor said...

    Shame! Shame on you for making fun of what you clearly do not understand. Or if you understand it, fail to appreciate the beauty of. Or is it, of which you fail the beauty to appreciate ...

    It is easy to mock ..."


    Yet not so easy for you (despite your supposed studies) to stipulate which verses of the hadith are fabricated and useless and which are not, and which may be a useful blend of history and falsehood for who knows what reason or why.

    You have never addressed or argued the historicity issue directly of course; though you have had ample time and opportunity to do so without being distracted or inflamed by my "mocking" presence.

    This neglect might be because you simply are not interested in evaluating the worth of the Koran solely on the basis of the truth value of the predicate propositions contained therein. Which happens to be the only question about it which would matter in the least to me.

    I will not even go into the issue of what a believing Christian - if one were one - is textually enjoined to make of the Koranic "revelation".

    After all, what's any of that matter when we have all those beautiful old buildings with the nice squiggly lines on them.

    But ... then, then there is that "19" business.

    How unfortunate for you to invest so much emotional and diversionary barristerial energy in trying to get people to take Islam seriously and respectfully, and as something more than a scriptural word-mine for cranks and the ignorant, and then have your client (nice guy that we all grant him to be) go and open his mouth in front of everyone.

    Well, Jer, you can argue for 1, the historicity of the predicate proposition of the revelation of the Koran; or you can 2, argue for some other proposition such as an Islamic 'social reality' deserves respect order of crap. The diligent polemical contortions of 50 generations of apologists for the Islamic scripture might be a kind of anthropological marvel, but so are acrobats ... and so what ...

    So, if you want to draw your line in the sand and argue the first, I might be inclined to give you a respectful hearing; or to hear you out at least.

    If the second - well, I just don't care, and have more potentially ennobling things with which I can occupy my time: like pushing crippled children down wells, or feeding martinis to squirrels, for instance.

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  8. @Jeremy Taylor

    Jeremy,

    Thanks for your patience in dealing with those who don't seek to engage for as all to reach higher enlightenment but only seeks quarrelsome chatter.

    As you can see I have taken your advice and limited my interaction with him.

    By the way, I will add more to my response to your questions when I am able to within the next few days.

    Peace to you my friend.

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  9. @Ocean D

    Regarding the miracle of how so many multitudes of people, men, women, and children have the entire Qur'an memorized, please also notice that the a large proportion of memorizers do not know Arabic as a language for communication.

    There is no other book in the history of the world that has this feature or even comes close.

    It certainly befits the book of God Almighty.

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  10. What about the Qur'an being at odds with history in claiming that Christ was never even crucified?

    This has always been the deal-breaker for me in ever seriously considering Islam further, as Christ's crucifixion is the most well established historical fact about him, regardless of whether one believes in his Resurrection. [E.g., New Testament scholar L. T. Johnson calls the evidence “overwhelming,” Paula Frederickson says, “The crucifixion is the strongest single fact we have about Jesus” (Society of Biblical Literature meeting, November 22, 1999). And even Robert Funk, head of the completely irreligious Jesus Seminar, views the crucifixion as "one indisputable fact” (Jesus Seminar video).]

    Against this ahistorical backdrop, I could never muster additional effort to analyze the more "exotic" arguments about whether the Qur'an is scientifically miraculous, numerologically miraculous, etc. If the Qur'an is claiming something just as absurd as "Julius Caesar never existed," it can't reasonably be held against me that I think Islam is transparently false.

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  11. DNW,

    Yet not so easy for you (despite your supposed studies) to stipulate which verses of the hadith are fabricated and useless and which are not, and which may be a useful blend of history and falsehood for who knows what reason or why.

    Did you not read my post?

    You seem adverse to reading, preferring youtube, so I will repeat it to make sure you get the message:


    I don't understand why you expect this. If someone comes on here with a caricature of Thomism (one that shows he has barely any knowledge of it) and then, if called on it, expects others to explain to tutor him in the basics of Thomism (all the while still harshly dismissing it as nonsense), it is legitimate to not to want to spoon feed him. Of course, there will be some saints who will try to help him learn, usually in vain. But, alas, I'm not a saint. I would not be tutoring them and I'm not going to tutor you. I have better things to do.

    My complaint was and is you know next to nothing about you were spouting off. As I said, all I was asking was a bit of basic knowledge, so the internet sources (one was an academic journal), even wikipedia would do. But you seem uninterested even in this.


    I'm not here to teach you the basics of what you should know before embarking on the arrogant and opinionated tirades you have engaged in, in this thread. You've shown next to no real intent to engage with the subject matter, beyond repeating your own ignorant opinions. You scoff even at reading a few Wikipedia articles. Much internet discussion is in vain.

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  12. @Ocean D

    I am sorry I missed your post above earlier.

    "My layman impression of the Surah 74 verse 30 is that the "it" there refers to Hell itself and not the Quran. See the verses before it for continuation of thought where it is clearly talking about Hell."

    Of course, we can not conclusively know what the pronoun refers to without asking the author, but even if the pronoun refers to hell, the whole claim of giving certainty to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians who are sincere), more faith to the Believers, and removal of doubts from the People of the Book or the Believers does not make any sense if the "fixing of the number" has no relationship to providing evidence. And it is patently obvious to all that whether the claim that the number of angels in charge of hell is 19 or 36 or 745 or any other number does not increase faith or remove doubts to any amount or any substantial amount. Thus the claim is unintelligible unless it is linked to some evidence. And the evidence in the Qur'an for its patterns with 19 based on natural units such as beginning verse, its Surahs (Chapters with the initials whether by themselves when only one surah has the initial or the entire subset of surahs that starts with the same initials (that was unexplicable until now) is more than abundant.

    "The Quran is a great book I have no doubts but at the end of the day what does it provide spiritually to a person that some other holy book does not? Yes you can say that it is a miracle and try to prove it but for a true seeker of God what is so unique about it?"

    I love an aspect that I find in your last point. Yes, even more important than attested miracles is the spiritual truth. There is nothing that is more important than our relationship with God Almighty, the source for all goodness and all existence.

    Before even seeing whether any book is worth looking into for any reason such as attested miracles, it is essential to consider if the book is logical and if is ethical.

    I submit to brother within the pseudonym Ocean D that you will find that the Qur'an is logical and it is ethical. There is nothing about sin or salvation that is against our moral conscience, our sense of justice, our notion of how we try to set up our limited justice system, etc. The Qur'an is in accordance with what the Qur'an says is our fitrat, our primordial nature...our sense of right and wrong. We would not an innocent person to die for a guilty person. And we would not hold a person guilty just for not being as perfect as God. And we would believe that a person can be forgiven by a change in his heart. And that God can detect such a change in the person's heart. Of course someone who sins is not equal to someone who does not sin. But we all recognize in our conscience that someone who does wrong, if he really feels remorse, then he will exert himself to make sufficient amends, we recognize that the person earns forgiveness.

    This is not to be reduced to a works based religion. It is based on a spirit based religion, a truth based religion, a justice and goodness based religion. If a person is paralyzed, he or she can not in principle do any good works. But that is not the issue. The issue is the heart. If the heart is changed such that the appropriate amount of good works would normally ensue, then God would know that.

    That is why the Qur'an is so abundant talking about the heart. The most famous poet in America, Rumi, was attempting to convey the spiritual truths of the Qur'an. Unfortunately, many of his translators come from a non-religious perspective and thus some of their translations distort some of the meanings but as many experience, much spiritual truths still come out.

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  13. @Omer,
    Regarding the miracle of how so many multitudes of people, men, women, and children have the entire Qur'an memorized, please also notice that the a large proportion of memorizers do not know Arabic as a language for communication.

    Come on man, if people do not understand the language how will they understand the message, even if they memorize it? Isn’t the message more important then just memorizing it by rote? if it is then how is this a miracle?

    Of course, we can not conclusively know what the pronoun refers to without asking the author, but even if the pronoun refers to hell, the whole claim of giving certainty to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians who are sincere), more faith to the Believers, and removal of doubts from the People of the Book or the Believers does not make any sense if the "fixing of the number" has no relationship to providing evidence. And it is patently obvious to all that whether the claim that the number of angels in charge of hell is 19 or 36 or 745 or any other number does not increase faith or remove doubts to any amount or any substantial amount. Thus the claim is unintelligible unless it is linked to some evidence.....

    That is exactly my point we cannot know conclusively but you are basing all your proof of the 19 on that verse. Also why the Quran choose to specify 19 to specify angels in charge of hell and make it unintelligible as evidence is something that you have to reconcile but just finding patterns based on the number that is clearly saying the number of angels in charge of hell seems all too clear to me. Also even if that point is true and it is a test for the Christian I think it is clearly mistaken. The truth of Christ (the Son of God) does not stand or fall based on patterns defined in a book that got major things wrong about the Bible itself. If someone is willing to give up the Truth of Christ based on patterns then so be it, but when Christ transforms your heart these patterns that you speak of pale in comparison.

    ... continued

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  14. I love an aspect that I find in your last point. Yes, even more important than attested miracles is the spiritual truth. There is nothing that is more important than our relationship with God Almighty, the source for all goodness and all existence.

    Before even seeing whether any book is worth looking into for any reason such as attested miracles, it is essential to consider if the book is logical and if is ethical.


    That has been my point all along. The core message of Quran is more important than patterns and rhythms and rhyme that you have been talking about all this while. If someone does not understand the core message what use is all this then?

    I submit to brother within the pseudonym Ocean D that you will find that the Qur'an is logical and it is ethical. There is nothing about sin or salvation that is against our moral conscience, our sense of justice, our notion of how we try to set up our limited justice system, etc.

    And so is the Bible.

    The Qur'an is in accordance with what the Qur'an says is our fitrat, our primordial nature...our sense of right and wrong. We would not an innocent person to die for a guilty person. And we would not hold a person guilty just for not being as perfect as God. And we would believe that a person can be forgiven by a change in his heart. And that God can detect such a change in the person's heart. Of course someone who sins is not equal to someone who does not sin. But we all recognize in our conscience that someone who does wrong, if he really feels remorse, then he will exert himself to make sufficient amends, we recognize that the person earns forgiveness.

    Oh yes I agree to all this, but you have missed a major point in all this, no matter what you or I personally do in our lives. No matter how much effort we put in to change our hearts we will fall short of the Perfect Holy God’s standard. What you are saying is basically following the law, keeping it in your heart. Sorry to be a bearer of bad news but no matter what you do you will fall short of it. The Perfect Holy God’s standard of Holiness is not humanly possible to attain.

    This is not to be reduced to a works based religion. It is based on a spirit based religion, a truth based religion, a justice and goodness based religion. If a person is paralyzed, he or she can not in principle do any good works. But that is not the issue. The issue is the heart. If the heart is changed such that the appropriate amount of good works would normally ensue, then God would know that.

    Unfortunately in trying to keep the law even in your heart you are following a works religion and no religion is outside of that except Christianity since it goes even deeper. Yes God would know about the change of heart no doubt about it but can you be holy in God’s eyes? I do not think so, no one can.

    There is only one place in history where God’s Perfect Holiness, God’s Perfect Justice, God’s Perfect Wrath and God’s Perfect Love converged and that is at the cross of Jesus Christ. Only the blood of Jesus purifies our hearts and makes us holy to be in the presence of God Almighty.

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  15. " You've shown next to no real intent to engage with the subject matter, beyond repeating your own ignorant opinions. You scoff even at reading a few Wikipedia articles. Much internet discussion is in vain.
    May 24, 2016 at 3:10 PM
    "

    Keep sawing away, Jeremy ...

    In the meantime, and to quote myself repeating myself regrading your lack of an actual substantive argument,

    "This neglect [to address the critical issue] might be because you simply are not interested in evaluating the worth of the Koran solely on the basis of the truth value of the predicate propositions contained therein. Which happens to be the only question about it which would matter in the least to me."


    " ... Jer, you can argue for 1, the historicity of the predicate proposition of the revelation of the Koran; or you can 2, argue for some other proposition such as an Islamic 'social reality' deserves respect order of crap. The diligent polemical contortions of 50 generations of apologists for the Islamic scripture might be a kind of anthropological marvel, but so are acrobats ... and so what ...

    So, if you want to draw your line in the sand and argue the first, I might be inclined to give you a respectful hearing; or to hear you out at least.

    If the second - well, I just don't care ... "



    By the way, and to address what should be the real spur to this comment, I had some months ago read McCarthy's reproduced speech I think it was, and found it sound. As for the essay above, I do quibble with Ed on one more or less tangential point.

    Professor Feser says,

    " It is difficult for a devout person of any religion not to be moved by the Muslim call to prayer and the communal piety of the Muslim faithful. "

    "Communal piety". I think that this toss of a bone in the direction of Islam is well-intended and possibly even sincerely felt as true per se, as opposed say, to felt as an obligation of rhetorical charity, or of magnanimity, or something along those lines.

    And I guess it is possible that devout persons of one religion do find some emotional reverberation in the devoutness of others in different and alien religions.

    But hundreds of barefoot men, bent-prostrate and lined up on the floor nose to ass in serried ranks, seems to me somewhat less than spiritually inspiring. I do understand they perform certain ablutions before engaging in the act. Perhaps that makes some difference.

    “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

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  16. When did I say I was ever I interested in evaluating the worth of the Koran with you? After your displays here, there are no doubt few left who would consider such a fool's errand. Indeed, even the more partisan Christians can no doubt see your cheap mockery of Islam, like its prayer ritual, could just as soon be turned on Christianity. I was solely interested in trying to stop you arguing like a 42 caret plonker, to use a British expression. Such a Herculean task (this reference is from Greek mythology, I sure you can be directed towards a YouTube video that explains it) is, alas, beyond me.

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  17. Jeremy Taylor said...

    When did I say I was ever I interested in evaluating the worth of the Koran with you? ..."

    That was: the predicate truth value. And yes, despite all your expressions of indignation, the truth value of the predicate propositions of Islam, its historicity, is not something you are capable of defending.

    As you have already copiously complained, your main objection has been to my dismissive and mocking tone regarding any claims of Islam being true; and, to what you imagine to be an insufficient attention on my part to some ostensible body of scholarship which should you apparently imagine, demonstrate the intellectual respectability of Islam's predicate claims, once you have pointed at it several times.

    Now, you have had plenty of opportunity actually argue a case for predicate claims of Islam yourself, but why bother when you can indignantly stew over some spurious parallel you have fabricated between the inherent respectability of philosophical arguments for uncaused causes or an ultimate intellectual agency on the one hand, and the revelation of the word of Allah via Gabriel to Mohammad, on the other.

    Oh yeah, you also seem to think that Christians who live in intellectually ramshackle fidest houses should not throw stones at the jerrybuilt if highly adorned faith shacks of Islam; lest the tables be turned back on them. Though why that should be of any interest or significance to me exists only in your own emotionally overwrought mind.

    Since you're fixated on the links I provided to the entertaining scholarship of Islam's critics on YouTube, you might offer them the benefit your linking skills in rebuttal to their chapter and verse citations of the Islamic scriptures (or not-scriptures, as the case may be).

    Please, knock yourself out:

    "2442. It is related from 'A'isha that the wives of the Messenger of Allah, ... fell into two parties. One party contained 'A'isha, Hafsa, Safiyya and Sawda, and the other party contained Umm Salama and the rest of the wives of the Messenger of Allah ... The Muslims knew of the love of the Messenger ... for 'A'isha, so when any of them had a gift which he wanted to give to the Messenger of Allah, ... he would delay it until the Messenger of Allah... was in 'A'isha's house. Then the person with the gift would send it to the Messenger ... while he was in 'A'isha's house.

    The party of Umm Salama spoke about it and said to her, "Tell the Messenger of Allah, ... to speak to the people and say, 'Whoever wants to give a gift to the Messenger of Allah, ... should give it to him in the house of whichever wife he is.'"

    Umm Salama spoke to him about what they had said, but he did not say anything. They asked her and she said, "He did not say anything to me." They said to her, "Speak to him." She said, "She spoke to him when he went around to her as well, but he did not say anything to her. They asked her and she said, 'He did not say anything to me.' They said to her, 'Speak to him until he speaks to you.' He went around to her and she spoke to him. He said to her, 'Do not injure me regarding 'A'isha. The revelation does not come to me when I am in the garment of any woman except 'A'isha.'"


    Maybe Mohammad is just referring to the inspirational value of his child bride Aisha's bed; or maybe 2442 is a worthless and false hadith altogether. Let me see, 24 from 42, add one child bride ... Maybe Omer can tell us if this particular hadith is any good.

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  18. Do you know what terms like predicte and truth value mean>

    As you have already copiously complained, your main objection has been to my dismissive and mocking tone regarding any claims of Islam being true; and, to what you imagine to be an insufficient attention on my part to some ostensible body of scholarship which should you apparently imagine, demonstrate the intellectual respectability of Islam's predicate claims, once you have pointed at it several times.

    I wouldn't have said anything about your mocking tone if it was not clearly combined with invincible ignorance.

    Your charactisation of my points here is cleary wrong. I said little about Islam's intellectual worth. I did suggest if somneone was making an argument some topics - for example, Ufology - can be dismissed without inside knowledge then Islam does not seem to fal into such a category, any more than any great faith; but that was a subsidiary point to be made if you showed any interest in a proper discussion of what can and cannot be dismissed without knowledge. My main argument was always that someone should have a basic knowledge of what they are harshly criticising and dismissing. You could have replaced Islam in my argument with just about anything.

    As far as I have seen, you have not given any real response to my basic, quite simple argument. Indeed, your response seems to be have to shrug your shoulders and suggest everyone else instruct you whilst still remaining mocking and dismissive.

    Though why that should be of any interest or significance to me exists only in your own emotionally overwrought mind.

    It is always useful to know who the Gnus are.

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  19. Jeremy Taylor said...
    " Do you know what terms like predicte and truth value mean>"

    I don't know what you mean. But I do know what a predicate is both logically and thematically, and a truth value. You can substitute the term "historicity" for the same general idea, as I have already done for you, many times before.

    " ... Your charactisation of my points here is cleary wrong.

    Let's take an example of why Jeremy's accusations are themselves so ridiculous. One example follows. I'd mockingly criticized some hadiths, and concluded with a couple of questions including this one: "Authentic or not? Real or not? Does anyone know?".

    Omer responded with a slew of hadith quotes hoping to show the elevated nature of the religious sentiment in the hadiths; a number which paraphrased clauses in the Koran. I replied to Omer on May 16, 2016 at 10:16 AM

    " Those are all very nice ... It would be just as nice if there were any real way to know who actually expressed them and when and why... Here are some other nice sayings. Do they seem the product of Divine revelation to you? [emphasis added to assist the understanding impaired]

    'The quality of mercy is not strain'd, It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
    Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest: It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.'
    "

    So: thus far we have established that

    - Omer provided hadith sayings in order to counteract the hadith sayings I had provided.

    - I responded by acknowledging the niceness of the sentiments and observing that a, " It would be just as nice if there were any real way to know who actually expressed them and when and why ..."; and b, asking regarding a number of sayings which I was about to offer in rejoinder "Do they seem the product of Divine revelation to you? ". Again, at 10:16 AM.

    And yet again it's ... the product, the result, the effect, of Divine revelation ...

    I then following at May 16, 2016 at 10:54 AM, presented a number of quotes from the Koran, remarking that, " No one rational wishes to gratuitously wound the feelings of human beings ... who happen to have grown up in the Religion of Submission and have found within it some personally appealing expressions of human fellow feeling, however couched, and promises of cosmic justice and mercy.

    The question ... though, is what possible evidence internally or externally is there for the originary claim which purports to establish the historicity of the revelation ....

    Those who wish to ... argue from some comparative phenomenal effect of a belief system ... to the objective truth of the system's predicates, are certainly welcome ... Seven League Boots would seem to be the order of the day for those attempting it.
    " Again, that was at 10:54 AM.

    Subsequent to that, timestamped at May 16, 2016 at 3:05 PM, we find this absurdity from Jeremy:
    "Jeremy Taylor said...

    'Do they seem the product of Divine revelation to you?'

    Are you confusing the Koran and the Hadith again?
    May 16, 2016 at 3:05 PM
    "


    1. My postings make clear I had been talking about the hadiths and their historicity, derivative inspiration, and moral utility, if any, as was Omer.

    2. In the instant posting from which Jeremy quoted, it was equally clear that I was asking regarding specifically non-Muslim moral axioms and sentiments, and whether they in particular seemed to be the outcome (product of) a Divine revelation.

    3. It is clear that Jeremy in his haste to try and accuse another of a lack of understanding or competence, manifested no understanding at all of either what he had read, or was looking at as examples.

    The texts which were the subject of the "product" question, were none of them Muslim, much less taken from the hadiths or Koran.

    I largely let this pass with one remark because correcting Jeremy's errors seemed to be as ultimately pointless as trying to keep him on track.

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  20. Who are you talking to?

    Why can't you answer me in a clear and simple way?

    You made mocking clains about the lack of clarity about transmission and legitimacy of the Hadith in the Islamic tradition without knowing the first thing about the transmission and legitimacy of the Hadith in the Islamic tradition. Is this not a bloody stupid way to carry on?

    Try to reply simply, clearly, and not to imaginary interlocutors.

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  21. OceanD,

    Thank you for responding.

    I will respond soon.

    I wanted to share another of many more interesting features of the Qur'an. It is ring structure. It has been found in semitic literature including the Bible.

    An important point that many Christians do not realize is that Muslims believe that God did reveal scriptures to the Children of Israel such as the Torah to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and to others. Although these scriptures are not in the exact pure state because the earlier communities did not preserve them completely even though it was their duty (5:44 and 5:12-5:15) and works that were not revealed by God such as Paul's letters to churches were made cannon (even though Paul never met Jesus (peace be upon him) and Paul had very serious disputes with the actual disciples of Jesus).

    My point is that I realize that there would be much beauty in the Bible such as the beautiful psalms, the beautiful parables of Jesus, etc.

    Regarding ring structure, the prevalence is not in one Surah or section of the Qur'an but throughout the entire text and in many multifaceted areas demonstrating amazing composition.

    Below is an interview with one an author who wrote on this feature in the Qur'an:

    CONTINUED

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  22. We have a fresh opportunity to reflect about Structure and Qur'anicInterpretation. At this point Professor Raymond Farrin is going to speak about his views on A Study of Symmetry and Coherence in the Qur'an.

    Professor Raymond Farrin.

    Raymond Farrin is an associate professor of Arabic at the American University of Kuwait. He studied Arabic in Cairo and received a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Studies from the University of California, Berkeley. He is author of Abundance from the Desert: Classical Arabic Poetry (Syracuse UP, 2011).

    Q: First of all what made you take up Qur'anic studies?
    RF: I took up Qur’anic studies by way of Arabic literature. In graduate school at UC Berkeley, I focused on classical Arabic literature. My primary emphasis was classical Arabic poetry. However, anyone who studies classical Arabic literature must give attention to the fundamental text in Arabic. And the more I read the Qur’an, the more amazed I was at its language and meanings. Gradually, the Qur’an became my main focus of study.

    Q: I wonder what made you focus on Structure and Qur’anic Interpretation?

    RF: I came to focus on Structure and Qur’anic Interpretation, once more, by way of Arabic literature. My first book, Abundance from the Desert (translated into Arabic as Tharwa min al-badiya, Dar al-Farabi), challenges the notion held by many Orientalists that classical Arabic poems lack structure. The book shows that, on the contrary, many noteworthy poems possess coherence in the form of ring structure. (Classical audiences were evidently aware of concentric structure, but it has only recently been appreciated in early poetry by literary scholars.) The book furthermore shows that this structure serves as a guide to meaning, with the key message or image occurring in the center.

    Later, I was surprised to find that many Orientalists also criticize the Qur’an for a supposed lack of structure. Following the work of researchers such as Michel Cuypers and Mustansir Mir, who have discovered symmetrical patterns in parts of the Qur’an, I proceeded to look for a similar structural logic in the Qur’an as a whole.

    Q: Robert Alter and Frank Kermode, editors of The Literary Guide To The Bible, would you like your work to be The Literary Guide To The Qur'ān, Could you elaborate on the Symmetry and Coherence in the Qur'ānic language?
    And can you give us some examples of your interesting findings in the Qur'an?

    RF: The thesis of my book is that the whole Qur’an is arranged according to symmetry. Symmetry occurs in the Qur’an in the form of parallelism, e.g. A B A’ B’; chiasm, e.g. A B B’ A’; and concentrism, e.g. A B C B’ A’; the last form being the most common. These kinds of symmetry can be found on the level of the verse, on the level of the sura, and in the Qur’an as a whole.
    For example, the Throne Verse (2:255) has a concentric structure that emphasizes God’s knowledge in the center. Here is a summary of its form:
    a There is no god but God, the Living, the Eternal
    b Slumber never overtakes Him
    c All things in the heavens and on earth belong to Him
    d Who may intercede except by His permission?

    e He knows what lies before His creatures and what lies behind them

    d’ His creatures grasp nothing of His knowledge except by His permission
    c’ His Throne extends over the heavens and the earth
    b’ Supporting the heavens and the earth does not fatigue Him
    a’ He is the Exalted, the Great


    Likewise, the Qur’an as a whole has a concentric form, emphasizing Judgment Day and the Hereafter in the center:

    CONTINUED

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  23. CONTINUED from above

    Likewise, the Qur’an as a whole has a concentric form, emphasizing Judgment Day and the Hereafter in the center:

    1 Prayer of praise and supplication

    2-49 Longer suras

    50-56 Medium-length suras dealing with Judgment Day and the Hereafter

    57-112 Shorter suras

    113-114 Prayers of Refuge

    And in the very center of the Qur’an (Suras 54 – 55), we find emphasis on God’s two fundamental attributes, awesomeness and mercy. The first of these two suras stresses God’s majesty, while the latter stresses His mercy:

    54 al-Qamar
    55 al-Rahman

    Q: As for the Qur’an, viewing it as a piece of literature is a modern method of inquiry that demands a nontheological approach and demands further research. It is said that you “Raymond Farrin” have already uncovered the central meaning of one of the Qur’an’s longest suras, could you elaborate on that?
    RF: Yes, Surat al-Baqara is also arranged according to a concentric pattern, as may be summarized in this way:

    A (1-39) Believers vs. disbelievers; Prophet challenges disbelievers to produce a sura; God gives life and resurrects

    B (40-112) Moses delivers law to Children of Israel; Children of Israel reluctant to sacrifice cow

    C (113-141) Abraham was tested; Ka‘ba built by Abraham and Ishmael; prayer that descendants submit to God

    D (142-152) Ka‘ba is the new prayer direction; this is a test of faith; compete in doing good deeds

    C’ (153-177) Muslims will be tested; instructions about pilgrimage to Mecca; warning not to worship ancestors’ multiple gods

    B’ (178-242) Prophet delivers law to Muslims; Muslims exhorted to enter Islam wholeheartedly

    A’ (243-286) Believers encouraged in struggle vs. disbelievers; Abraham challenges king to affect rising of sun; God gives life and resurrects


    As we can see, in the center of al-Baqara the new qibla is identified as Mecca, this being a test of faith. (We recall that Jews in Medina prayed north in the direction of Jerusalem, and Christians prayed east toward the rising sun; according to the test, the Muslims in Medina, who formerly prayed northward toward Jerusalem, must turn southward with the Prophet toward Mecca.) Meanwhile, all religious communities are called, regardless of their spiritual orientation, to compete in doing good works.

    We also see that in the exact center of al-Baqara (v. 143) the Muslims are identified as a new median community (wa-ka-dhalika ja‘alnakum ummatan wasatan). They are to be an example to other communities in doing good deeds and eschewing evil.

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  24. CONTINUED from above

    Q: I remember you mentioned that the Opening epitomizes the Qur’an, could you elaborate on that?
    RF: Yes, al-Fatiha epitomizes the Qur’an thematically and structurally. Here is a translation of al-Fatiha:

    In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
    1 Praise be to God, Lord of all peoples,

    2 The Merciful, the Compassionate,

    3 Master of the Day of Reckoning.

    4 You alone we worship; you alone we ask for aid.

    5 Guide us on the Straight Path,

    6 The Path of those You favored, not of those who incurred wrath,
    nor those who went astray.

    Thematically, al-Fatiha highlights the Qur’an’s main themes: monotheism (v. 4), guidance (vv. 5-6), and the Hereafter (vv. 1-3). Structurally, it has a three-part concentric form that corresponds to that of the interior of the Qur’an. Here we represent the interior of the Qur’an:

    2-49 Longer suras in ring form (centered on Suras 22-24)

    50-56 Medium-length suras dealing with Judgment Day and the Hereafter

    57-112 Shorter suras in ring form (centered on Suras 89-92)

    And here is the structure of al-Fatiha:

    1-3 Worship in ring form (Majesty – Mercy – Majesty)

    4 Worship and Supplication

    5-6 Supplication in ring form (Guidance – Favor – Going Astray)

    Furthermore, the first verse of the Qur’an refers to rabb al-‘alamin (the Lord of all rational beings), or the Lord of humankind and jinn. The last verse of the Qur’an refers to humans and jinn as well (min al-jinnati wa-al-nas). And the middle sura of the Qur’an, al-Rahman, is addressed to both humankind and jinn, asking them which of their Lord’s blessings they deny (fa-bi-ayyi ala’i rabbikuma tukadhdhiban). The beginning, middle, and end of the Qur’an are tied together, just as the beginning, middle, and end of al-Fatiha are tied together.

    In sum, al-Fatiha is a perfectly apt introduction to the Qur’an.

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  25. CONTINUED from above (final portion)

    Q: I wonder what you mean by ”mathani held as a technical term for chapters”
    RF: “Mathani” in its basic sense means “repeated ones” or “repetitions” or “doubled ones.” I argue that the “seven mathani” in 15:87 refers not to seven verses, or al-Fatiha, as many believe, but to seven suras of double the length of other existing suras at a certain stage of revelation. Considering this matter from the context of the middle Meccan period, we find that Suras 50-56, or the seven central suras of the final Qur’an, average 64 verses, while the other suras revealed up till that time average 33 verses. I argue that the “seven mathani” refers to these seven suras of doubled length during the middle Meccan period.
    Incidentally, even at this stage, we see the seven suras distinguished from the rest of the Qur’an (as in 15:87). Eventually, they would become the core of the finished Book.

    Later, we find “mathani” used as a term to refer to those suras occurring after the “mi’un” (i.e., Suras 10-28, whose average is 104 verses) and before the “mufassalat” (i.e., Suras 57-112, whose average is 21 verses). These mathani, Suras 29-56, have an average length of 62 verses. Among the classical scholars who use mathani in this sense are al-Zarkashi (d. 794/1391) and al-Suyuti (d. 911/1505).

    Q: The Qur'ān assures to be inimitable and challenges its opponents to produce a work like it, in the same time I wonder what you should expect to find in the Qur'ān by way of 'literature'.
    RF: We should expect to find in the Qur’an “literature” unmatched in its power and beauty. Indeed, the Qur’anic challenge to produce a comparable work, which occurs five times in the text (2:23, 10:38, 11:13, 17:88, 52:34) is specifically a literary challenge. This is a challenge that remains unmet.

    In this connection, we might remember that many of the first hearers of the Qur’an were overwhelmed. ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab, for instance, formerly an opponent of Islam, was reduced to tears and converted on the spot.

    Q: Most Western people want to know what the Qur’an ‘says’ on particular issues. Assuming the Qur'ān has a consistent position, what is one of the best ways, in your opinion, that the Qur'ān’s position should be shown?
    RF: In my opinion, the way to find out what the Qur’an says on a particular issue is to examine a sura in which the matter is treated. This should be done methodically.

    First, we should recall the historical context in which the sura was revealed. Next, we should analyze the sura structurally, in order to determine the main points and its core message. Finally, we should apply the message to the present times.

    We might take as example Sura 9, al-Tawba, which I am studying for a forthcoming article. This sura was revealed in a context of military threat from a Byzantine army to the north, plots to harm the Prophet at home in Arabia, and breaking of treaties by polytheists while the Muslim combatants were away. Looking at the structure, one finds the sura urging confrontation in this environment, but also emphasizing charity and holding out the possibility of repentance and forgiveness. Moreover, far from highlighting confrontation with non-Muslims as a lasting and definitive stance, as some commentators would have us believe, al-Tawba seems to bear, according to literary analysis of the whole Qur’an, a meaningful relationship to al-Ghafir.

    Analyzing the sura from a literary perspective, therefore, and in terms of the whole Qur’an, we find repentance to be emphasized. I discuss these points further in the article.

    Abdur-Rahman: Your ideas are so exciting that I don’t remember to say “thank you”, thank you very much, my brother Raymond!

    Raymond Farrin: Thanks for your patience.

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  26. Please note that the interview was by Mr. Abul-Majd

    Peace to you all

    ReplyDelete
  27. I note that Jeremy has asked a question - apparently directed to me, though he does not specify - as to who in my previous comment I was "talking to".

    In the first paragraph of my comment, I was replying directly to Jeremy: explaining to him that I had no idea what the gibberish question he had posted and which I had quoted him as posting, was supposed to itself mean.

    I then provided an explanation of a couple of the contexts in which I was familiar with the term "predicate", and (as it related to the truth value of Islam) the use of "historicity" as an acceptable if rough substitute.

    I then quoted another of Jeremy's questions, which constituted and contained within it, yet another unfounded implication.

    Since it made no sense to further try and respond to the person behind such erroneously premised nonsense, I began speaking for the record instead. I began illustrating Jeremy's demonstrable error; an error to which his petulant displays of pique could be in at least one instance easily traced: i.e., a demonstration of Jeremy's complete misunderstanding (or deliberate misinterpretation), of a particular comment in which I had listed, and asked of, some non-Islamic quotes.

    Citing comment chapter and verse so to speak, and including time-stamps as well, I established that Jeremy, who has been railing at the grounding of my criticisms of the predicate assumptions of Islam, had completely misrepresented what I had actually said, as well as that about which I had in fact been speaking.

    Whether Jeremy's misrepresentation was deliberate or not, I leave unanswered. But that he has harangued for many days on a point which he plainly misrepresented regarding me, and which he has already been told by me that he has so misrepresented, has been established.

    If Feser tolerates any more of this kind of use of his bandwidth, I might even, if I think it worthwhile, respond again: Sometimes as if talking to Jeremy, and sometimes as if he is not really there. But to be clear, I have no interest whatsoever in "dialoguing" with the duplicitous son of a bitch.

    For anyone wonders who I was "talking to" then, I hope that this suffices as an answer.



    Memorial Day weekend is now upon us. As we all know it memorializes the life sacrifices our ancestors made in battle against totalitarian social forces; some of which again confront this generation, both within our polity, and without.

    Have a good Memorial Day weekend.

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  28. Interesting use of your time; to whine and whinge to no one in particular. The record? You are a pompous pillock, aren't you! If you are going to try and troll, at least try and do it in a witty and worthwhile way.

    No new YouTube videos worth watching? Alas, I see no attempt to actually deal with my points.

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  29. This is essentially your argument:

    1.)Take X of which there are issues of inside knowledge or ways of understandings and doing thing that have been developed within the framework and tradition of X

    2.)You know little about X and even less about these issues of inside knowledge.

    3.)Yet you harshly mock X and, especially, this inside knowledge, despite you own lack of knowledge of them.

    Isn't this just the most bloody stupid way of carrying on? One could replace X by anything and it wouldn't seem to make any difference. Do you have a first proper response to this, my main point this whole time? Or are you still intent on showing your have the intellectual capacity of boiled cabbage.

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  30. Talk about "intellectual capacity" in regard to "boiled cabbage" is not necessarily nonsense talk.

    For example, one can inquire into whether it legitimately may be said of cabbage that it has an intellectual capacity -- and, should the answer be 'yes', whether it retains that capacity when boiled.

    (And, if the answer to the second question is 'no', then one may move on to the next step, i.e., to inquiring into whether the intellectual capacity that is lost when the cabbage is boiled will return when the boiled cabbage cools down.)

    But talk of the intellectual capacity of boiled cabbage which occurs whilst one is engaged in the (alleged) black-and-white thinking one is (allegedly) encouraging another not to engage in... well, that talk then can have a certain smell to it.

    Of course, humans do get flustered, indeed they do; and humans may speak otherwise when flustered than when not.

    So, if one's speech when flustered is otherwise than when not, then, depending on the circumstances, it may behoove one to, ahem, either not get fluster or not post when flustered.

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  31. (s/b "And, if the answer to the second question also is 'yes',...")

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  32. (Hm. The "s/b" should not have been, i.e., the original wording is just fine, and is not (and was not) in need of correction.)

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  33. @Omer

    An important point that many Christians do not realize is that Muslims believe that God did reveal scriptures to the Children of Israel such as the Torah to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and to others.

    I am aware that the Muslims think this, but the Gospels were never revealed to Jesus. The Gospels are the eye witness account of the life and teachings of Jesus by the apostles written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    Although these scriptures are not in the exact pure state because the earlier communities did not preserve them completely even though it was their duty (5:44 and 5:12-5:15)

    And what is the exact “pure” state you are talking about? What historical proof do you have to say that? Are you basing all your proofs on what the Quran is saying? Have you considered that maybe the Quran got things wrong?

    and works that were not revealed by God such as Paul's letters to churches were made cannon (even though Paul never met Jesus (peace be upon him) and Paul had very serious disputes with the actual disciples of Jesus).

    What basis do you have to say that Paul’s letters were not revealed by God and should not be made cannon (Biblical)?

    What basis do you have to say that Paul did not meet Jesus?

    What was the nature of the “serious” dispute that Paul had with Jesus’s disciples?

    You ought to be on very solid grounds to make these arguments. I am look forward to your reply.

    My point is that I realize that there would be much beauty in the Bible such as the beautiful psalms, the beautiful parables of Jesus, etc.

    Exactly, so you cannot use something like beauty to say that it is a miracle. At the end of the day if someone has the ability to say beautiful rhythms in a consistent manner that does not prove much, what matters (and I will repeat it) even more then these pattern is the message itself.

    Again what Professor Raymond is saying about the Quran bares little value since finding patterns and sequences in a book should be expected, if they did not exist, it would border on an incoherent message. I do not think the Quran is incoherent and I also do not believe that Muhammad did not have the revelation from a single supernatural source. What my point all along is an even deeper one, what message does the Quran provide that other holy books do not (irrespective of what you might think about the other holy books). Hopefully you can provide a summary of the Quran’s core message in a paragraph or so.

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  34. Glenn,

    Speaking of cabbage, what do you think of gimchi, if you don't mind me saying; if you extend an infinite favour. That is to to say, flustered or not, what would you say its the relevance here? Could it perhaps have no relevance, black, white, or even red?

    It is childish of me perhaps, but, adult as I am, I still can't work out what you are trying to say.

    By the way, it is a shame we haven't heard from you over at the classical theist forum. Perhaps you are having too much fun with your new friends, even those who have been here indefinitely. Let's us hope you don't indefinitely change old friends for new.

    Now, perhaps I missed something, what with my black-and-white thinking, and my finite attention span, but I can't help but notice that you never got back to me about your reference to Aquinas' claims about the law, old and new. How, indeed, do you think it makes sense to teach children the moral law by encouraging them to do what, some here claim at least, is the most flagrant immorality. This may be somewhat black and white thinking, if you will grant me the infinite favour of putting it so childishly, but it seems one thing to say that children are not ready for the ful rigour of the adult law; quite another to say children may act in the most viciously immoral ways. Perhaps your new friends have some answers, though one at least seems to suggest he has no care for such things, þeah he is æltæwe dysig.

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  35. Of course, although some may find it simplistic, it would also behoove an interloper, ahem, to state whether they think it is legitimate to mock the very inside contents of a field without knowing anything about those contents. That is, I do wonder what you would say is someone mocked the Christian view of the Old Testament without knowing how Christians view the Old Testament. I hope you are not flustered at the moment.

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  36. @Omer
    As we can see, in the center of al-Baqara the new qibla is identified as Mecca, this being a test of faith. (We recall that Jews in Medina prayed north in the direction of Jerusalem, and Christians prayed east toward the rising sun; according to the test, the Muslims in Medina, who formerly prayed northward toward Jerusalem, must turn southward with the Prophet toward Mecca.) Meanwhile, all religious communities are called, regardless of their spiritual orientation, to compete in doing good works.

    Why does the good Professor think that Christians pray to the east? What sort of Christianity is that?

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  37. Jeremy,

    I'd have responded sooner, but I was away most of the day, and until later in the evening. (I did see your first response just before I was to leave, but really didn't have time to say anything just then.)

    1. I made reference to one instance, and one instance only, of you having engaged in black-and-white thinking. You to DNW: "Do you have a first proper response to this, my main point this whole time? Or are you still intent on showing your have the intellectual capacity of boiled cabbage." The content of my comment should have made clear that it was to that single instance that reference was made.

    2. I did have some fun with the delicious irony of finding a reference to the "intellectual capacity of boiled cabbage" mixed in with that instance, true.

    3. More importantly, and more seriously, it is (or has been my experience that it is) unusual for you to slip up like that, and it had seemed likely that the slip-up was due to nothing more than speaking while flustered. If 'flustered' is too strong, then let it be replaced with, say, 'not in a pacific state'.

    (But if I'm wrong, and you had been in a pacific state at the time, and/or that instance was not a slip-up, then say so, and I'll stand corrected.)

    4. I do wonder what you would say is someone mocked the Christian view of the Old Testament without knowing how Christians view the Old Testament.

    Not to get 'technical', but... okay, yes, to get 'technical' (sort of, anyway)... if someone doesn't know the Christian view of the Old Testament, then whatever it is he is mocking (or thinks he's mocking), clearly it isn't the Christian view of the Old Testament.

    5. [S]tate whether [you] think it is legitimate to mock the very inside contents of a field without knowing anything about those contents.

    See 4. above; implement necessary substitution(s).

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  38. Glenn,

    Okay. As often happens on the internet, the discussion got somewhat overheated. The boiled cabbage line was a paraphrase of a Blackadder joke. I wasn't impressed with his arguments on this topic, but DNW may well stand up bloke in all other areas, so you may well be right.

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  39. It seems many do not distinguish between force & violence.

    We may have here an equivocation regarding force & violence.

    In human acts, violence would be an unjust use of force.

    A farmer cutting down a wheat field is using force, but it is not unjust. (We could think of thousands of examples.)

    A man robbing a citizen merely walking through a park with his dog would be violence. (Also thousands of
    Examples)

    If we deem all force as violence, all self defense is violence. .

    Was it CS Lewis who said a country can have so many pacifists before the country collapses.??

    Let the deeper thinkers than I expound on this.

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  40. @OceanD

    Dear OceanD,

    Thank you very much for your kind response.

    Sorry that my responses are usually not prompt.

    "What basis do you have to say that Paul’s letters were not revealed by God and should not be made cannon (Biblical)?

    What basis do you have to say that Paul did not meet Jesus?

    What was the nature of the “serious” dispute that Paul had with Jesus’s disciples?"

    According to all scholars, whether catholic, evangelic, those in the clergy or ministry or in academia (whether religious or not), Paul did not meet Jesus (peace be upon him).

    Yes, Paul claimed that after the crucifixion, he had a vision of Jesus. But this was his claim. He never met Jesus, far less was in the company of Jesus, and even further less was his disciple.

    I appreciate your question. And I am uncomfortable to disagree with others on issues that is sensitive, intimate, and important to them such as religion. However, I feel it is my duty as a brother in humanity to share what I know. Knowledge and wisdom is every consistent seeker's property.

    If you read Paul's own writings that attempt to undermine the "so called leaders," you can see that he sharply disagreed with them and they sharply disagreed with him.

    Christians say that eventually these disagreements were reconciled. But a growing number of top academic scholars say that is not the case and that the ministry of Jesus was later succeeded by James, the brother of Jesus, and James and the disciples taught a very different theology than Paul. They kept to the Jewish law and did not teach that heaven is through the substitutionary suffering or through the cross. And they did not believe the Jesus was God or the literal son of God.

    Please see the following document by Professor Barry Wilson which was written for the lay persons and is easy to read and understand.

    http://www.barriewilson.com/pdf/If-We-Only-Had-Paul.pdf

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  41. It must be remembered that philosophical and other assumption matter in this sort of historical scholarship. It is generally assumed, by the sorts of scholars you mention, Omer, that non-natural causes can be ignored; that religious doctrines must have slowly evolved rather than have been revealed; and so on. As C.S. Lewis noted, many such scholars will conclude such and such a Gospel must have been written after 70AD because in it Jesus appears to predict that destruction of the Temple - the assumption being that real prophecy does not exist. There are certainly as many reputable scholars who make parallel claims about Islam (and Judaism - it is a commonplace amongst secular historians that Jewish monotheism grew slowly from Canaanite polytheism, rather than was revealed; here the assumptions are, one, that religious beliefs cannot be revealed, and, two, that there is always a slow evolution from primitive animism and polytheism to monotheism).

    From the New Testament and Apostolic Fathers, one can certainly see tensions in the years after Jesus' death, between those (in varying degrees) keen to preserve the Jewish identity of early Christianity and those willing to reach out to Gentiles. The latter are certainly not limited to Paul. But you'd struggle to find evidence that, for example, Paul was not accepted by the other Apostles and early Church leaders or for claims that Apostles did not more or less accept the reaching out to Gentiles and, indeed, the basic message of Christ's divinity and role in salvation. This message is clearly dominant by the end of the first century and appears throughout the New Testament works. Scholars doubting this would have to rest their case on speculation (and no doubt the few that Christianity must have evolved beliefs like the divinity of Jesus rather than have had them from the beginning).

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  42. @Jeremy Taylor: "As often happens on the internet, the discussion got somewhat overheated."

    Oh, not yet.

    Not that I mean it *should* get overheated. :)

    "I wasn't impressed with his arguments on this topic, but DNW may well stand up bloke in all other areas, so you may well be right."

    One of these days, when I can, I had thought to issue a standing invitation to drop by for dinner and drinks, at my house if folks should be ever in town. No doubt there would be fisticuffs, but after that, I think it would be splendid.

    Of course, we would follow Kant's rules for a dinner party and M. F. K. Fisher's, for we are most of us not barbarians.

    You and DNW and Glenn and Omer would most certainly be among those explicitly invited. I would provide boxing gloves (I used to be a boxer), and whiskey, and cheesy comestibles. Also we would read poetry, some of it blue. (Sorry, DNW. But we'll trade off. For every line of Pope that I read, you could read a line of Milton. Fair's fair. Did I mention there'll be boxing gloves?)

    @Miriam McCue: "Let the deeper thinkers than I expound on this."

    Well, I was *going* to say something, but now it would seem presumptuous...

    @Omer: "And I am uncomfortable to disagree with others on issues that is sensitive, intimate, and important to them such as religion."

    Oh, don't be uncomfortable. :) If you can hear frank talk about the Qur'an and Islam, so too can others about other books and creeds.

    "However, I feel it is my duty as a brother in humanity to share what I know. Knowledge and wisdom is every consistent seeker's property."

    Good. You'll be held to that.

    (Most of the time. I admit, I would have written again sooner myself, but I had missed the last few episodes of *The Flash*, and I really hoped Iris and Barry would finally get together...)

    @Jeremy Taylor: "As C.S. Lewis noted, many such scholars will conclude such and such a Gospel must have been written after 70AD because in it Jesus appears to predict that destruction of the Temple - the assumption being that real prophecy does not exist. There are certainly as many reputable scholars who make parallel claims about Islam (and Judaism - it is a commonplace amongst secular historians that Jewish monotheism grew slowly from Canaanite polytheism, rather than was revealed; here the assumptions are, one, that religious beliefs cannot be revealed, and, two, that there is always a slow evolution from primitive animism and polytheism to monotheism)."

    A very interesting point. I remember Walter Kaufmann talking about that (and Umberto Cassuto, and Robert Sacks, and G. A. Wells...). This blog doesn't generally get into the Documentary Hypothesis or the Minimalist-Maximalist debates or suchlike, but sometimes I wish it would.

    I have nothing interesting to say there, I just want to hear more.

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  43. @Omer
    And I am uncomfortable to disagree with others on issues that is sensitive, intimate, and important to them such as religion.

    I agree with laubadetriste, we are talking quite frankly about the Quran and Islam and you have the same right to do too.

    According to all scholars, whether catholic, evangelic, those in the clergy or ministry or in academia (whether religious or not), Paul did not meet Jesus (peace be upon him).

    Yes, Paul claimed that after the crucifixion, he had a vision of Jesus. But this was his claim. He never met Jesus, far less was in the company of Jesus, and even further less was his disciple.


    Yeah I disagree, the conversion of Paul is not mentioned one time but three times in the book of Acts see
    Acts 9:1-19 http://www.newadvent.org/bible/act009.htm#vrs1, Acts 22:3-21http://www.newadvent.org/bible/act022.htm#vrs3 and Acts 26:9-23 http://www.newadvent.org/bible/act026.htm#vrs9 (the differences are reconcilable)

    Not only that Paul says himself that he has “seen” Jesus see 1 Corinthians 9:1 http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1co009.htm#vrs1 and the all important verse of 1 Corinthians 15:8 http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1co015.htm#vrs8

    If you read Paul's own writings that attempt to undermine the "so called leaders," you can see that he sharply disagreed with them and they sharply disagreed with him.

    Christians say that eventually these disagreements were reconciled. But a growing number of top academic scholars say that is not the case and that the ministry of Jesus was later succeeded by James, the brother of Jesus, and James and the disciples taught a very different theology than Paul. They kept to the Jewish law and did not teach that heaven is through the substitutionary suffering or through the cross. And they did not believe the Jesus was God or the literal son of God.


    This is all well and good but when you say “Paul’s own writings that attempt to undermine” I need references to those exact verses and references of all the scholars who are in agreement that they had a major theological disagreement. Also the link from Barrie Wilson does not contain the verses attributed to what you are saying. Yes he explains somethings about James but what sources is he using? at least I did not see any maybe you can tell?

    I do not deny that they had a disagreement but that was about expanding Jesus’s teachings to Gentiles as well as Jews and not about Jesus himself (to be honest, in retrospect I think Paul guided by the Holy Spirit made the right call). Also if you say that the letter of James contradicts Paul you are mistaken since James is talking about works of faith while Paul is talking about works of the law (a very important distinction).

    ... continued

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  44. If you want scholarly material on Paul and the myth that he is the inventor of Christianity see this book by the most prominent New Testament scholars N.T. Wright
    http://www.amazon.com/What-Saint-Paul-Really-Said/dp/0802844456?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

    And another more recent book (in my wishlist) of his
    http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Faithfulness-God-N-Wright/dp/0800626834?ie=UTF8&colid=DJ07YZ3LVQH0&coliid=I1PRGL1X1O8K7X&ref_=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl

    Also if you want even more details about his lectures and specifically about Paul see http://ntwrightpage.com/

    Please see the following document by Professor Barry Wilson which was written for the lay persons and is easy to read and understand.

    http://www.barriewilson.com/pdf/If-We-Only-Had-Paul.pdf


    I can, if you want, go into each point that Professor Barry Wilson has raised and tackle it individually but since we are talking about Islam and not Christianity I do not really want to go into details here. So just to give an idea of what my line of thought would be to tackle the Professor see below.

    In the paper you linked the Professor says “Paul refers to them as “rival teachers” or as “super apostles,” people who held quite different views on the correct teachings and practices of the new movement and who regarded Paul’s message as deviant” and then gives an endnote which does little to nothing to explain who those rival teachers are and who those super apostles are. Maybe he was writing for a popular audience but still references are a must.

    “Finally – and this is most remarkable – Paul says very little about the historical Jesus. He rarely quotes or refers to Jesus at all in the formulation of his own position and pronouncements. Even when advancing positions on topics Jesus had addressed, Paul is silent. This silence is hardly the practice one would expect of a devoted student of a rabbi.”

    It is very obvious (at least to me) as to why Paul did not talk about historical Jesus because he was writing letters to real people who already knew about the historical Jesus. Yes, the Gospels were not written at the time but we know of the oral traditions and prayers that the Gospels were based off of were most certainly present and they came from the apostles. Paul did not need to repeat every Jesus saying or repeat his story. This is a very unfair point and also brings his entire case down in my opinion.

    So overall my opinion is that Professor Barry Wilson is reading things into the Gospels and taking a few verses here and there and building a case and saying the following

    “Either the life and teachings of the historical Jesus were not of interest to Paul or else they were simply not known”

    which I do not think are jointly exhaustive at all. To get back to the point at hand you still have to get back to me on the core message of the Quran. Looking forward to it.

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  45. "@Jeremy Taylor: 'As often happens on the internet, the discussion got somewhat overheated.'

    Oh, not yet.

    Not that I mean it *should* get overheated. :)
    "

    My guess, and it is only a guess, is that Jeremy has been using some kind of hand held device while he has been expressing his indignation over my derisory take on the historicity of the Koran.

    It is difficult enough to quickly proof a real-time response while fielding phone calls or being pestered by a persistent secretary. No doubt it becomes doubly difficult if your main aim of quickly policing what others are saying, leads you to use a device which has a problematical keyboard and provides a less than optimum format for reviewing your own retorts in order to ensure that they make any sense at all.

    What becomes paramount from Jeremy's perspective, is not to argue a specific case in favor of the historicity of the Koran's premise (the only question regarding the Koran which holds any critical significance for me), nor to quote accurately (or at all) what he purports to be discussing when doing so, but to get up some kind of retort which he hopes will de-legitimize the criticism or mockery which he sees as inequitably (and perhaps even iniquitously) directed at the text of the Koran or the hadtiths.

    I have twice reviewed these exchanges in attempting to sort out just what is going on here; and why it is that some should appear to insist that the critical question for the one considering Islam is not the truth of its stated historical premise or even the prima facie coherence or lack thereof of the texts, but some other criterion, such as a particular apologetic tradition of this school or that within the social phenomenon generally called "Islam".

    It is difficult to say for sure what people actually believe or credit, but Jeremy in his comments refers to the Sunni version of Islam, whereas Omer, not an Arab he says, seems to critique Aisha. This leaves bigger problems for Jeremy's intercession on behalf of Omer, than even Omer's numerological mysticism; as Jeremy is confronted with a rather amusing (for the outsider) conundrum when adverting to Islam with the use of the definite article "the".

    In parallel with this historicity issue and its equity, it is difficult to imagine anyone who deserves to be taken seriously as a Christian attempting to defend their commitment to Christianity while sidestepping the issue of the historicity of Jesus' existence, crucifixion, and literal resurrection. What one would have left in such a case, is a group of organized fools who enjoy dress-up, schmoozing over the recitation of didactic fables intended to increase solidarity, and other girlish pleasures pursued in the name of some putative social utility. They would end up like Unitarians, or the American Episcopal Church, or much of the Church of England.

    Why this burden should not be incumbent upon Muslims, is not readily apparent. Well it is, given what Jeremy has said regarding his own take on "scriptures" in general; but, that, is another comment.

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  46. @OceanD

    "To get back to the point at hand you still have to get back to me on the core message of the Quran. Looking forward to it."

    Dear OceanD,

    The core message of the Qur'an to each of us is that we are all created by God and that this life is a test for us that will determine whether we go to the delightful bliss of paradise where we will remain or whether we will go to the severe suffering of hellfire where we will remain.

    The Qur'an is God's final revelation and protected from any corruption and human interpolations/human mixtures.

    The Qur'an's purpose is to provide full guidance (if we seek it) on how we can be guaranteed to be delivered to paradise and guaranteed to be protected from being delivered to hellfire.

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  47. DNW,

    I see you are as graceful as one might have expected.

    By the way, I noticed you still have never properly responded to my basic argument, which was not directly about the historicity of the Koran or any of this other stuff you keep banging on about. It is interesting that you waste so much time, ours and yours, in responding again and again but don't even attempt to actually respond to my points.

    Certainly, it is for Muslims to defend their own Scriptures, just as it for Christians to do so for theirs. But if someone comes along to the Christian and starts mocking Christian Scriptures for being historically unreliable and for there being much varied material, apocryphal and canonical, that Christians have to some how sort out, without showing an acquaintance with how Christians have traditionally sorted it out or with the historical provenance and transmission of the Scriptures, then the burden is on the critic. If the Christian is putting forward his view, or the critic is asking basic questions, then the burden may be on the Christian. But it doesn't remain so against all an ignorant and arrogant critic can drag up. This is not really controversial, except amongst Gnus, who think that the burden of proof always falls on the believer.


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  48. Or take the Mosaic Law and Christianity.

    If someone asked how the Christian reconciles his belief in the Old Testament revelation with non-observance of important parts of the Mosaic Law, or with quoting some parts of this law in support of his moral beliefs, then by all means the Christian should explain it to him or point him to those who can.

    But if this critic went around saying, "stupid, barbaric Christians, you pick and choose which parts of the Mosaic Law to follow, with no consistency or method", without showing the slightest acquaintance with traditional Christian views on the Law, then the burden of proof is not on the Christian. The burden to call this critic a bloody idiot might be on the Christian, however.

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  49. - that should reconciliation of his non-observance of some parts of Mosaic Law with his quoting other aspects in support of his moral positions.

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  50. Commenter Jeremy remarks,

    " I see you are as graceful as one might have expected.

    By the way, I noticed you still have never properly responded to my basic argument, which was not directly about the historicity of the Koran or any of this other stuff you keep banging on about. It is interesting that you waste so much time, ours and yours, in responding again and again but don't even attempt to actually respond to my points. "

    Possibly Jeremy meant "gracious" above; and possibly not. Possibly he merely meant adroit, and he meant it, or the other sense, to be understood as sarcasm. With Jeremy, as with the Koran, the religious effects of which he so esteems, it is difficult to know.

    A couple of points which Jeremy should find both edifying and reassuring.

    1. If he is feeling obligated to read and respond to my comments as he implies he does, he may feel himself released from this imaginary obligation. I have no desire that Jeremy, or anyone else for that matter, waste one more moment of their time in defense of Islam, no matter how indirectly.

    2. He need not concern himself with my use of time. I use it as seems appropriate to me; and, if there is work to be done that seems to be going undone, I can assign an employee to do it for me. But that is not happening, so he can reassure himself in that regard as well.

    3. I have no idea what his question actually is. It seems to be predicated on some presumption of the existence of a logical parallel between the critical stance one ought to take toward metaphysical arguments affirming an ultimate creative agency or un-caused cause, and the verses of the Koran ... in some regard or another.

    I had intended to treat this claim - if that is what it was - with a separate comment, but then realized that I had no solid conception of what it was that Jeremy imagined was a, incumbent, and b, incumbent in aid of what, exactly.

    Yet he seems to assert that these are like cases to be decided by like principles.

    - It seems to me that on the one hand we have a case wherein it is asserted that classical metaphysical and logical arguments for the existence of ultimate causes or the necessary intelligibility of reality, and the implications of that premise, have been deliberately misrepresented and errors in deductions made by persons hostile to teleological interpretive frameworks and realist (moderate or otherwise) ontologies.

    - On the other hand it seems we have a question over the meaning and coherence of certain Arabic texts purportedly delivered in the name of Allah, to the prophet named Mohammad, by an angel named Gabriel.

    As regards this second case there are both matters of the historicity of the claims to be dealt with, and the matter of both a, the canon of the text if there is one, and b, the grammatical or semantic issues appertaining to these so-called sacred verses.

    It seems to me that if someone wishes to make a best case for the historicity of the revelatory events of the Koran and the literalness of their truth, they are welcome to do so. But I have not seen such an argument, and I have not been able to get anyone here to make one that has not hinged on occultist numerological inferences based on plainly suspect - if not ludicrous - principles of interpretation and validation.

    I have further been told by at least one great respecter of Islam, that the kind of historicity argument I see as critical, is simply not to his interest.

    So that leaves us with disputes over the authenticity and the meaning of certain primary Arabic verses, and their ancillary texts. And apparently the subsidiary issue of whether displaying a lack of regard for these verses which may be authentic or not, depending on who you ask, is intellectually or morally inappropriate.

    Which seems to me to have nothing to do with the truth of the primary claims per se: The only question worth investigating.

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  51. @Omer


    Dear OceanD,

    The core message of the Qur'an to each of us is that we are all created by God and that this life is a test for us that will determine whether we go to the delightful bliss of paradise where we will remain or whether we will go to the severe suffering of hellfire where we will remain.

    The Qur'an is God's final revelation and protected from any corruption and human interpolations/human mixtures.

    The Qur'an's purpose is to provide full guidance (if we seek it) on how we can be guaranteed to be delivered to paradise and guaranteed to be protected from being delivered to hellfire.


    Thank you for getting back to me I only have two questions (last two I hope and after that I am outta here),

    1. Do you mind explaining what that guarantee is to be in paradise and what do you need to do to achieve that guarantee?
    2. What role, if any, does Jesus play in the end times mentioned in the Quran?

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  52. I placed up a reply earlier, which seemed to take and which now cannot be seen.

    Perhaps it was deleted. Maybe the thread or someone's patience, has reached a limit.

    I'll try posting only the second half of the comment up in the event it is the latter.

    Fortunately I had scrolled and right-click copied the completed window and was able later to paste the text. Let's see if this takes. It addresses the issues, and not the man. A couple minor changes are included.


    " ... 3. I have no idea what his question actually is. It seems to be predicated on some presumption of the existence of a logical parallel between the critical stance one ought to take toward metaphysical arguments affirming an ultimate creative agency or un-caused cause, and the verses of the Koran ... in some regard or another.

    I had intended to treat this claim - if that is what it was - with a separate comment, but then realized that I had no solid conception of what it was that he imagined was a, incumbent, and b, as incumbent in aid of what, exactly.

    Yet, he seems to assert that these are like cases to be decided by like principles.

    - It seems to me that on the one hand we have a case wherein it is asserted that classical metaphysical and logical arguments for the existence of ultimate causes or the necessary intelligibility of reality, and the implications of that premise, have been deliberately misrepresented and errors in deductions made by persons hostile to teleological interpretive frameworks and realist (moderate or otherwise) ontologies.

    On the other hand it seems we have a question over the meaning and coherence of certain Arabic texts purportedly delivered in the name of Allah, to the prophet named Mohammad, by an angel named Gabriel.

    As regards this second case there are both matters of the historicity of the claims to be dealt with, and the matter of both a, the canon of the text if there is one, and b, the grammatical or semantic issues appertaining to these so-called sacred verses.

    It seems to me that if someone wishes to make a best case for the historicity of the revelatory events of the Koran and the literalness of their truth, they are welcome to do so.

    But I have not seen such an argument, and I have not been able to get anyone here to make one that has not hinged on occultist numerological inferences based on plainly suspect - if not ludicrous - principles of interpretation and validation.

    I have further been told by at least one great respecter of Islam, that the kind of historicity argument I see as critical, is simply not to his interest.

    So that leaves us with disputes over the authenticity and the meaning of certain primary Arabic verses, and their ancillary texts. And apparently the subsidiary issue of whether displaying a lack of regard for these verses which may be authentic or not, depending on who you ask, is intellectually or morally inappropriate. Which seems to me to have nothing to do with the truth of the primary claims per se: which is the only question worth investigating.

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  53. So that leaves us with disputes over the authenticity and the meaning of certain primary Arabic verses, and their ancillary texts. And apparently the subsidiary issue of whether displaying a lack of regard for these verses which may be authentic or not, depending on who you ask, is intellectually or morally inappropriate. Which seems to me to have nothing to do with the truth of the primary claims per se: which is the only question worth investigating.

    Why are you so disingenuous?

    My point is simply you have been harshly mocking the authenticity of the texts - how they are selected, sorted, and interpreted by the Muslim tradition - without having a basic knowledge of this selection, sortation, and interpretation. Even here you can't resist the little dig about authenticity supposedly depending upon whom you ask, when you haven't done the first thing to acquaint yourself with the traditional answers to this question you are allegedly asking! It is as if someone lumped in all the early sources about Jesus, learnt nothing about their traditional interpretation and sortation, and then mocked Christians harshly for never being able to tell them which sources are authentic or not.

    I have further been told by at least one great respecter of Islam, that the kind of historicity argument I see as critical, is simply not to his interest.

    Stop lying. I simply said I wasn't interested in discussing this with you. I had very specific criticisms of your comments - which you were wholly unable to answer. I would have needed very good answers to my queries before I'd even consider discussing any of these issues further with the likes of you (and I would, and did, advise others to get these answers from you before bothering talking to you further).



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  54. This comment thread on Islam has taken on a surreal quality, as if the commentators are inhabiting completely different realities, in addition to being concerned with completely different issues.

    We have on the one hand the topic of the thread: “Islamophilia and falsification”.

    In order to exemplify the issue being mooted Feser illustrates thus,

    'Why is it that they can’t say two plus two equals four when Islam is involved?'
    McCarthy’s own answer to his question is that due to a “triumph of willful blindness and political correctness over common sense,” our leaders are “unwilling to deal with the reality of Islam [and] have constructed an Islam of their very own.” It is, McCarthy thinks, this fantasy Islam that they describe and defend, while ignoring actual, empirical, historical Islam. …

    So, McCarthy thinks that in real-world Islam -- as opposed to the imaginary Islam he says politically correct government leaders have constructed -- there is a link between Islamic doctrine on the one hand and, on the other hand, both violence and a rejection of the freedoms taken for granted in modern Western societies ...

    McCarthy’s claim is ... that more violent and illiberal interpretations of Islam, such as the one put forward by Abdel Rahman, are no less plausibly authentic, and indeed have very strong scriptural and legal arguments in their favor -- so much so, in McCarthy’s view, that the more pacific and liberal interpreters “seem to be dancing on the head of a pin.' Hence, McCarthy concludes, there simply is no basis in fact for the claim that jihadists are “perverting” Islam, or even for the claim that theirs is 'not a mainstream interpretation.' The most one can say is that alternative interpretations are also possible.


    Now, what Feser appears to be focusing on, is whether some supposedly positive aspects of Islam are sufficient to falsify McCarthy's position.

    One could equally well ask as Feser does in passing, concerning the conceptual (not logical) obverse: If the violence manifested by adherents of the Religion of Submission in the name of its primary text, is enough to falsify the claim of adherents of the text, that it socially manifests as, or is somehow, a religion of peace.

    I had earlier given my own answer to that, saying that if it was in someway a religion of peace, it was the peace described, as Tacitus had it, by Calgacus. ...

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  55. cont. ... As Feser remarked concerning McCarthy's view of Islam's defenders: “It is, McCarthy thinks, this fantasy Islam that they describe and defend, while ignoring actual, empirical, historical Islam.”

    Quoting the Koran or the hadiths in a brazen way which makes them look ridiculous, is seen among the defenders of Islam, some of them who say, “I have great respect for Islam.” and “I don't see much of a difference here between the Scriptures of faiths. [as it relates to their historicity and aims]” as the act of one who is insufficiently well versed in the niceties of Islamic apologetic and its internecine squabbles.

    On this particular view, one neglecting such points is holding Islam to double standard, and not accounting for the Old Testament verses concerning the crimes of patriarchs and kings which could be hung around the neck of Jesus. “ There are double standards if we wave away the actions of those in the Bible.

    Though, admittedly, “Jesus himself cannot be accused of many such actions ...
    … and
    Yes, Jesus' actions are relatively unproblematic in the sense we are discussing

    Not, "many such", "relatively unproblematic"

    Apparently then, this respecter of Islam is willing to grant that the Jesus of the Gospels held comparatively few slaves, his kingdom occupied only a little of this world's territory, he ordered the slaughter of relatively fewer men, he foamed at the mouth only occasionally, ordered the stoning of fewer adulteresses, the laying of fewer ambushes, the sacking of fewer villages, and the like. Jesus' actions are “relatively unproblematic” in this respect, as the respecter of Islam says.

    But that comparative method, treating the texts as if they offer some historical verisimilitude, or at least an idea of what these texts purport to be normative, is not how we should be approaching all this. We should instead advert to “... the teachings of Islam …” upon which “ ...the hadith are mostly focused ...

    Of course just what “the” (as the writer says) teachings of Islam are, how the victims of the actions of a self-proclaimed disciple of Mohammad and Slave of Allah is to sort this out, and what these teachings are likely to continue to lead to for those unfortunate enough to associate with such disciples, is the question with which we began.

    And for this answer, lest we mock texts ignorantly while not understanding their apologetic contexts and exculpations, we are advised to engage ourselves with the hadiths and their exponents; which are apparently, according to some Muslims, critical to any understanding of what the Koran actually means. But not all collections are trustworthy, except for Bukhari, which is Sahih, and which I quoted.

    But then the Shia don't like it and figure it is inauthentic.

    So who knows what the hell this religion of submission and mass murder, and its ranting apostles and perverse defenders are really pointing at or up to.

    What we just need to remember is to be fair in our evaluations, and that while the Jesus of the Gospels did not himself sack many villages or rape many prepubescent females, you cannot properly understand the comparative wisdom and virtue of the perfect exemplar and Prophet of Allah's doing so, or the miracle of the divine book created out of his accumulated sayings, unless you take an appreciative, sympathetic, stance in the first place. Or so many Muslim sites do assure us.

    This is not to say that you need to understand it from the inside before understanding it, no, no. It's just that you have to be schooled in the best sources, whatever they are, and able to read Arabic. This latter point is so that the apparent incoherence of the verses as delivered the from the mouth of Allah, to the ear of Gabriel, to the fainting spell of Mohammad, make sense, as the literally divine, or at least greatly respectable, product it so plainly is … for the initiated or sufficiently studious that is.

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  56. For those enthralled by the many fascinations offered by the Religion of Submission, or Peace, as it may be, and seeking further wisdom from certified experts on Islam, you can go straight to the horse's mouth so to speak, or one of them anyway, and: Ask The Shiekh.

    For example for all of you who have been perplexed as to whether we should Koran the Bukhari or Bukhari the Koran, the Sheik has an answer for you.

    It is not the answer the great respecter of Islam has, but it is an answer nonetheless.

    "The other major difference is that the Shia believe that there is no book of Hadith which is 100% authentic, and that all hadiths must be checked against the Qur’an and the established principles of Islam. In contrast, Sunnis believe that certain books, such as Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, are 100% correct and unquestionable. These books, however, obviously contain some Hadiths which go firmly against the principles of Islam and cannot be justified in any way, and therefore their claim is proven false through the content of the books themselves."

    So there you have it. If it goes against the Koran it is worthless. Unless you are a Sunni, in which case you cannot understand the nuances of meaning given by the context of the divine verses, unless you have Bukhari.

    I hope this is all clear and had led you to an even greater appreciation for the true nature of this remarkable revelation, or accumulation, as the case may or may not be.

    And has the question of : 'Can one blame the Shia’s for killing Imam Husain ... Who is responsible for this tragedy of killing the grandson of the Prophet? ', been bothering you? Dying to know? Just ask the Sheik.

    I found the site interesting, You might too.

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  57. Those multitudes anxiously awaiting my comments on the dispute over the proper method of approaching and evaluating Islam, may have noticed that when referring to Feser's theme, I wrote, "On the one hand"

    Later, in a bleed-over portion of the comment I continued,

    "cont. ... As Feser remarked concerning McCarthy's view of Islam's defenders: “It is, McCarthy thinks, this fantasy Islam that they describe and defend, while ignoring actual, empirical, historical Islam.”

    Quoting the Koran or the hadiths in a brazen way which makes them look ridiculous, is seen among the defenders of ..."


    Due to character limitations and editing excisions, there appears no statement between " ... historical Islam" and "Quoting the Koran" on the order of "Thus, on the other hand the issue for great respecters of Islam is ..." or some formulation like that.

    Ultimately this lack of rhetorical symmetry is unimportant. For casual readers or the uninterested, it will make no difference. For Islamophile hysterics, the actual theme doesn't matter anyway. Islamophilia and falsification

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  58. I certainly agree that this thread has taken on a surreal quality. Ever going to answer my simple points? It has taken you about 50 posts and you have not been able to. You seem more interested in wasting your own time with this endless witless drivel.

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  59. A great respecter of Islam, who informs me that he has no interest in discussing the historicity of the predicate claims of the Koran with anyone, or me at least, and who views it as his duty to see to it that Islam (or whatever is left of it once you determine to ignore the question of the truth or falsity of its initial premise) is not subjected to judgment under "double standards", has expressed concern, or pique, or something, over the issue of the supposedly wasted time involved in my continued exploration of the predicate question.

    He has of course been welcomed to argue the fine points of Islamic truth, wholesomeness, virtue, and energizing goodness to his little heart's content, should he wish. But apparently his little heart is content to avoid this task.

    Instead, offended by my lack of reverence, which he asserts without evidence or actual demonstration is ignorance, he prefers that some other question involving equitable consideration or real scholarship, be addressed. I guess, and since he has never once used his own supposed scholarship to effectively defend the truth of a single verse of Islamic text, great respecter of Islam though he is, it comes down to a matter of basic social justice, religious equality for "great religions", or something along those lines.

    Oh yes, in re time wasting ...

    In order to "waste" less time and still say what I wish about this, and therein please us both, I will basically copy the first part of yesterday's response, which unfortunately disappeared from view before the great respecter of Islam had time to have had the good of it; as someone over there might have once said in a play or something.

    "Commenter Jeremy remarks,

    " I see you are as graceful as one might have expected.

    By the way, I noticed you still have never properly responded to my basic argument, which was not directly about the historicity of the Koran or any of this other stuff you keep banging on about. It is interesting that you waste so much time, ours and yours, in responding again and again but don't even attempt to actually respond to my points.
    "

    Matters of any implied sarcasm aside, it is possible that Jeremy actually meant to say "gracious" rather than "graceful"; and possible that he did not. Possibly by graceful, if that is what he meant to say, he merely meant adroit or something like that. Or possibly he did not. With Jeremy, as with the Koran, the religious effects of which he so esteems, it is difficult to know what either he or it are talking about at any given moment.

    A couple of points however, which Jeremy should find both edifying and reassuring.

    1. If he feels obligated as he implies he does to read and respond to my remarks, he may now feel himself released from this imaginary obligation. I have no desire that Jeremy, or anyone else for that matter, waste one more moment of their time in defense of Islam, no matter how indirectly.

    2. Furthermore, Jeremy need not concern himself in the least with my use of time. I use my time as seems appropriate to me; and, if there is work to be done that seems to be going undone, I can assign an employee to do it for me. But that is not happening, so he can reassure himself in that regard as well. ..."

    Now, with this, I think that we have all those niggling little equity and social justice concerns which occupy the minds of niggling little equity types, completely cleared up, and no further pretense of a disinterested interest in scholarship need be staked.

    Jeremy is free to spend his time as he sees fit, he is reassured that I have underlings to do my work if needed, and that he may make whatever defense he wishes of Islam as he wishes.

    I do hope this helps.

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  60. The DNW-bot appears to be broken. The bilge continues. I think you need to take a good lie down. I have seen this happens before. It comes from watching too many YouTube videos.

    So, ever going to respond to my simple points?

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  61. Probably because of generally recognized fair use limitations, and because it was not his purpose to quote McCarthy's entire speech, but to instead consider the philosophical aspect of a current sociopolitical question, Feser did not quote more extensively from McCarthy's comments.

    But some of those left-out comments have a remarkable bearing on the question of falsification as it relates to Islamophiles - which is after all the theme of the blog entry. Since I am not limited by the professor's considerations, I'll provide some of these important quotes in case Feser's link to them was neglected in all the hubbub. These quotes are from my own saved scan of a print version, so there may be uncaught OCR errors which are neither McCarthy nor Feser's fault.

    McCarthey says in comments bracketing remarks Feser quoted:
    " I did think that if what we were saying as a govern‑
    ment was true—that he was perverting Islam—then there must be two or three places where I could nail hirn by saying, "You told your followers X, but the doctrine clearly says Y." So my colleagues and I pored over the Blind Sheikh's many writings. And what we found was alarm­ing: whenever he quoted the Koran or other sources of Islamic scripture, he quoted them accurately. ... You could counter that there are other ways of construing the scrip­tures. You could contend that these exhortations to violence and hatred should be "contextualized"—i.e., that they were only meant for their time and place in the seventh century. Again, I would caution that there are compelling arguments against this manner of interpreting Islamic scrip­ture. The point, however, is that what you'd be arguing is an interpretation.

    The fact that there are multiple ways of construing Islam hardly makes the Blind Sheikh's literal construction wrong. The blunt fact of the matter is that, in this contest of competing inter­pretations, it is the jihadists who seem to be making sense because they have the words of scripture on their side—it is the others who seem to be dancing on the head of a pin.
    "

    and

    "Another disturbing aspect of the trial against the Blind Sheikh ... was the character witnesses who testified for the defense. Most of these people were moderate, peaceful Muslim Americans ... But when questions about Islamic doc­trine would come up—"What does jihad mean?" "What is sharia?" "How might sharia apply to a certain situation?"­these moderate, peaceful Muslims explained that they were not competent to say. In other words, for the answers, you'd have to turn to Islamic scholars like the Blind Sheikh."

    And now for an anecdote. Over drinks last summer an older cousin's friend just back from the middle east was talking about his adventures in the Green Zone as a contractor following his recent retirement from a unit that need not be mentioned. In numerous conversations with Muslim allies, including if I recall Pakistanis, he was assured that he was an ok guy, that they liked him, and that they were on his side. But you see, he was not a Muslim, and so, if it came to it, as a matter of faith, he should be aware that they would happily kill him if it seemed a religious duty to do so. All said with a smile and in the most amiable and casual way possible. Nothing personal you know, just business. Or religion, as the case may be.

    With "friends" like that ...

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  62. The point of this of course is that very many Muslims apparently don't feel competent to say with any personal certainty what their own scriptures mean or do not mean. And of those who do feel certain, whether they can read the Arabic that is considered necessary for real understanding or not, many of them read their scriptures in the very way which made the earlier quoted verses from the Koran or the collection of the "best" hadiths, look by turns: alarmingly murderous, prima facie ridiculous, or morally contemptible.

    Now what we have then, on the part of Islamophiles, is a demand that non-Muslims construe the texts of Islam in a way contrary to the way a seeming plurality of self-identified Muslims either endorse or are willing to acquiesce to. This apparently is not a double standard though. Just that westerners may not construe literally whereas Muslims, may ... if and when they choose.

    As McCarthy points out:

    " ... Islam is not a religion of peace. There are ways of interpreting Islam that could make it something other than a call to war. But even these benign constructions do not make it a call to peace. Verses such as "Fight those who believe not in Allah," and "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strata­gern of war," are not peaceful injunc­tions, no matter how one contextualizes.

    ... stubbornly unwilling to deal with the reality of Islam, our leaders bave constructed an Islam of their very own. This triumph of will­ful blindness and political correctness over common sense was best illustrated by former British Home Secretary Jacqui Smith when she described terrorism as "anti-Islamic activity" In other words, the savagery is not merely unrelated to Islam; it becomes, by dint of its being inconsis­tent with a 'religion of peace,' contrary to Islam. "


    Peace, peace it's all about peace. Islam even means "peace" (or "submission" depending on who you ask).

    Contrary to all superficial impressions it is so; because, in order to really understand how peaceful and non-ludicrous Islam is, you just need to be an expert in Arabic, and to read all the proper commentaries, and consult with the right experts; whatever they are and whoever they may be - though persons calling themselves Muslims cannot themselves agree.

    But one thing is certain in all of this. Islamophiles can confidently say,

    "I have great respect for Islam." "I don't see much of a difference here between the Scriptures of faiths.[in a historical regard]" " ... it is hard to see, even on the worst interpretations, what Muhammad can be accused of that Biblical patriarchs and prophets cannot. There are double standards if we wave away the actions of those in the Bible. Yes, Jesus himself cannot be accused of many such actions" "... Yes, Jesus' actions are relatively unproblematic in the sense we are discussing ..."

    But, but, you know, double standards, and all that.

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  63. You seem to have spilt something all over the thread. It looks a lot like spam. You might want to clear it up. Answeing my basic points would help. You seem scared to do so.

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  64. @OceanD

    My brother in humanity, I started responding to you but the thread did not take my post.

    I will try again soon.

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  65. @OceanD

    You asked

    1. Do you mind explaining what that guarantee is to be in paradise and what do you need to do to achieve that guarantee?
    2. What role, if any, does Jesus play in the end times mentioned in the Quran?

    Before that you had a few other questions and comments that I would like to comment on.

    However, first, I think the barrier to this conversation is misunderstandings my Christian friends have about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) s shown by some of the comments on this thread.

    I think there is this notion that Prophet Muhammad was a warrior prophet...someone who was a warrior by nature and used combined it with the role of a prophet.

    This cannot be farther than reality.

    Before he was commissioned by God Almighty to be the final prophet and to be the prophet to us all, he was not a warrior type.

    He was known by his people as Sadiq Al-ameen (the truthful and the trustworthy). A verse in Surah 10 calls on the people to recall his truthful life.

    Furthermore, he was not wanting any fighting or militancy or so on but only preaching goodness in his town of Mecca...he was preaching to the people the revelations sent to him through Arcangel Gabriel to pray to only one God and to be kind...to stop their evil practices of burying their female newborns alive, of oppressing against those who are of weak social class, etc.

    After 13 years of increasing persecution, he and his followers had to flee to Madina for their lives....the men, women, and children had to cross the scorching heat and across hundreds of miles of desert.

    When the Meccan polytheists continued their persecution and eventually tried to annihilate the Muslims by rallying surrounding tribes against Madina, the Muslims fought back against their persecutors and God gave them amazing victories.

    But these battles were a small part of Prophet Muhammad's life.

    Anyone who studies Prophet Muhammad can't but fall in love with him as a billion and a half of humanity right now does as billions in the past have.

    Just like it is hard for those who are not familiar with the underpinnings of Aristotle and Aquinas, etc. to get over the barriers of misunderstanding, to understand Islam, we must put forth sustained efforts to get over our misunderstandings.

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