Friday, May 6, 2016

Islamophilia and falsification


Not too long ago I discussed the relationship between liberalism and Islam.  More recently I discussed the logic of falsification.  Let’s now combine the themes.  Former federal terrorism prosecutor Andrew McCarthy recently wrote:

Last year, Americans were horrified by the beheadings of three Western journalists by ISIS. American and European politicians could not get to microphones fast enough to insist that these decapitations had nothing to do with Islam.  Yet within the same time frame, the government of Saudi Arabia beheaded eight people for various violations of sharia -- the law that governs Saudi Arabia.

Three weeks before Christmas, a jihadist couple -- an American citizen, the son of Pakistani immigrants, and his Pakistani wife who had been welcomed into our country on a fiancée visa --carried out a jihadist attack in San Bernardino, California, killing 14 people.  Our government, as with the case in Fort Hood -- where a jihadist who had infiltrated the Army killed 13 innocents, mostly fellow soldiers -- resisted calling the atrocity a “terrorist attack.”  Why?  Our investigators are good at what they do, and our top officials may be ideological, but they are not stupid.  Why is it that they can’t say two plus two equals four when Islam is involved?

McCarthy’s own answer to his question is that due to a “triumph of willful blindness and political correctness over common sense,” our leaders are “unwilling to deal with the reality of Islam [and] have constructed an Islam of their very own.”  It is, McCarthy thinks, this fantasy Islam that they describe and defend, while ignoring actual, empirical, historical Islam.  Regarding terrorist Omar Abdel Rahman, the “Blind Sheikh” whom McCarthy prosecuted following the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, McCarthy writes:

When [Abdel Rahman] said the [Muslim] scriptures command that Muslims strike terror into the hearts of Islam’s enemies… [that] Allah enjoined all Muslims to wage jihad until Islamic law was established throughout the world… [and that] Islam directed Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as their friends, the scriptures backed him up…

[T]he Blind Sheikh’s summons to jihad was rooted in a coherent interpretation of Islamic doctrine.  He was not perverting Islam…

Furthermore, says McCarthy:

Sharia rejects freedom of speech as much as freedom of religion.  It rejects the idea of equal rights between men and women as much as between Muslim and non-Muslim.  It brooks no separation between spiritual life and civil society.  It is a comprehensive framework for human life, dictating matters of government, economy, and combat, along with personal behavior such as contact between the sexes and personal hygiene.  Sharia aims to rule both believers and non-believers, and it affirmatively sanctions jihad in order to do so.

So, McCarthy thinks that in real-world Islam -- as opposed to the imaginary Islam he says politically correct government leaders have constructed -- there is a link between Islamic doctrine on the one hand and, on the other hand, both violence and a rejection of the freedoms taken for granted in modern Western societies.  Is McCarthy right? 

First let’s understand what he isn’t saying.  For one thing, McCarthy writes: 

Habitually, I distinguish between Islam and Muslims.  It is objectively important to do so, but I also have a personal reason: when I began working on national security cases, the Muslims I first encountered were not terrorists.  To the contrary, they were pro-American patriots who helped us infiltrate terror cells, disrupt mass-murder plots, and gather the evidence needed to convict jihadists.  We have an obligation to our national security to understand our enemies; but we also have an obligation to our principles not to convict by association -- not to confound our Islamist enemies with our Muslim allies and fellow citizens.

So, McCarthy is not saying that Muslims in general are terrorists or sympathetic with terrorism.  On the contrary, he acknowledges that many Muslims are firmly opposed to terrorism.  It is not “the people” that are the problem, in McCarthy’s view, but rather “the doctrine.”  But he qualifies this claim too.  He acknowledges that the description of sharia he gives “is not the only construction of Islam,” that “there are multiple ways of construing Islam,” and in particular that “there are ways of interpreting Islam that could make it something other than a call to war.” 

McCarthy’s claim is rather that more violent and illiberal interpretations of Islam, such as the one put forward by Abdel Rahman, are no less plausibly authentic, and indeed have very strong scriptural and legal arguments in their favor -- so much so, in McCarthy’s view, that the more pacific and liberal interpreters “seem to be dancing on the head of a pin.”  Hence, McCarthy concludes, there simply is no basis in fact for the claim that jihadists are “perverting” Islam, or even for the claim that theirs is “not a mainstream interpretation.”  The most one can say is that alternative interpretations are also possible. 

One could, consistently with McCarthy’s basic thesis, go well beyond the qualifications he explicitly makes, and acknowledge that there are many positive aspects to Islam.  For example, we surely ought to admire the genius of Islamic thinkers like Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, Avicenna, Al-Ghazali, and Averroes, and to learn what we can from their works.  There can be no doubt that Islam has produced one of the richest and most durable civilizations of world history.  It is difficult for a devout person of any religion not to be moved by the Muslim call to prayer and the communal piety of the Muslim faithful.  We Catholics can only envy how resistant even non-observant Muslims are to apostasy and heterodoxy (or what counts as heterodoxy by Muslim lights, anyway).  We can and ought to affirm that between Christianity and Islam there is a common ground of Abrahamic and philosophical monotheism (as I have argued here and here). 

But all of that is consistent with McCarthy’s basic claim that there is nevertheless a link between traditional Islamic doctrine on the one hand, and violence and illiberal politics on the other.  Again, is he right?

Many reject such a claim, on the grounds that adherents of other religions, and adherents of no religion at all (as in the case of some atheistic versions of communism), have also sometimes endorsed violence and illiberal politics.  Hence (so the argument goes) there are no grounds for the claim that there is any special connection in the case of Islam.  However, these considerations are hardly sufficient to falsify McCarthy’s position.  For one thing, even if there is a connection between doctrine on the one hand and violence and illiberal politics on the other in the case of other worldviews (as there is with Leninism, for example) it doesn’t follow that there isn’t any special connection in the case of Islam.  Neither McCarthy nor anyone else claims that only Islam, of all worldviews, is especially prone to generate violence, restrictions on freedom, etc.

For another thing, it is superficial merely to note that some Christians (for example) have as a matter of fact resorted to violence, favored restrictions on the freedoms of non-believers, etc.  As I noted in my earlier post on liberalism and Islam, there has from the beginning of Christianity been a clear distinction (even if not always a separation) between the institutions of Church and state, and between the supernatural, heavenly end of human beings and their this-worldly, political ends.  Since the kingdom of God “is not of this world,” there is a clear theoretical basis on which Christian teaching might be implemented without resorting to political or military means.  By contrast, from the beginnings of Islam there has been no distinction between the religious sphere of life on the one hand, and the political and military spheres on the other.  Muhammad was prophet, statesman, and general all rolled into one, and the history of Islam has always reflected this conflation of roles.  Hence there is in Islam an absence of a clear theoretical basis by which the implementation of religious teaching might be separated from any resort to political and military means. 

Hence it is not enough to point to various specific examples of Christians, or Jews, or Buddhists, or whomever, who have committed violent acts, persecuted non-believers, or what have you.  One also has to examine the nature of these various doctrinal systems, so as to see if there is plausibly any essential connection between theory and practice.  And of course, one also needs to consider the frequency of acts of violence, persecution, etc. committed by adherents of one religion compared to those of other religions.  Hence, suppose one could find specific examples of adherents of Jainism who committed acts of violence.  It would be ludicrous to conclude from this that Jainism is as prone to violence as any other religion.  For one thing, one would be hard pressed to find very many (if any) examples of Jain terrorism; and for another thing the centrality of the principle of non-violence to Jainism makes it extremely difficult for any Jain who is so inclined to find in his religion a theoretical rationale for such violence. 

Probably most people would admit that, given its history and the nature of its doctrines, Jainism is plausibly much less likely than other religions are to foster violence, and that this would remain true even if one could find examples here and there of Jains who resorted to violence.  But it would be intellectually dishonest to deny that, by the same token, there might also be a religion that is more likely than other religions are to foster violence, and that this would remain true even if there are many adherents of that religion who reject violence.   That is what McCarthy is claiming to be the case with Islam.

Some parallel examples can elucidate further the nature of McCarthy’s claim.  Consider the thesis that eating foods that are high in sugar or carbohydrates (candy, potato chips, etc.) increases one’s chances of getting cavities.  It would be silly to object to this claim on the grounds that there are many people who eat such foods but who do not get cavities (because they brush their teeth regularly, say); or on the grounds that there are people who get cavities as a result of eating other sorts of food; or on the grounds that there are positive aspects to eating foods high in sugar or carbohydrates (such as the energy boost they provide, or the pleasure they afford).  These points are all true, but they are perfectly compatible with the claim that there is a special causal link between eating such foods and getting cavities.  And we know there is such a link because (a) we find that there is in fact a high correlation (even if not an exceptionless one) between eating such foods and getting cavities, and (b) we can identify specific chemical mechanisms by which such foods can lead to tooth decay. 

Or consider the relationship between smoking and cancer, an example I cited in my recent post on falsification.  It would be ridiculous to deny that there is any special link here, on the grounds that there are many people who smoke but do not get cancer; or on the grounds that many people who don’t smoke also get cancer; or on the grounds that smoking has positive aspects (such as the pleasure and relaxation it affords).  All of this is also true, but it is also all perfectly compatible with the claim that there is a special causal link between smoking and getting cancer.  And we know there is such a link because (a) we find that there is in fact a high correlation (even if not an exceptionless one) between smoking and getting cancer, and (b) we can identify specific physiological mechanisms by which smoking can lead to cancer.  Nor, as I noted in the post on falsification, does a causal link have to be very strong in order to be real.  As I noted there, there is a causal link between syphilis and paresis, even if few people who contract syphilis go on to exhibit paresis. 

Or consider the claim that Protestants tend to know the Bible better than Catholics do.  I’m staunchly Catholic, but I think the claim is probably true, based both on experience and on the fact that it’s just the sort of thing you’d expect to be true given differences between Protestant and Catholic theology.  Like Protestants, Catholics regard the Bible as divinely inspired.  But Catholics also think that there are sources of binding doctrinal authority outside of scripture -- the Fathers of the Church, the decrees of Church councils, the Ordinary and Extraordinary Magisteria of the popes, and so forth.  There’s simply a lot more material that a Catholic feels bound to pay attention to, whereas a Protestant is more likely to think that scripture is all he needs to know.  Naturally, then, Protestants are in general bound to know scripture better than Catholics do, because they are more likely to focus all their attention on it, and it constitutes a much smaller body of literature than what Catholics would say needs to be taken account of.   (By the same token, the Marcionites, who accepted as canonical none of the Old Testament and only parts of the New Testament, may well have known those particular parts better than Protestants do, because they had even less material to focus their attention on.)

Or consider the claim that Quakers and Mennonites are less likely than Catholics to commit terrorist acts.  Again, though I’m Catholic, I think this is bound to be true as well, in light of the fact that Quaker and Mennonite theology is pacifist and Catholic theology is not.  It is just naturally going to be harder for a Quaker or Mennonite to come up with a rationalization for committing some terrorist act given the theological constraints he is committed to.

Now, it would be ridiculous to dismiss these last two claims on the grounds that they must reflect mere “anti-Catholic bigotry.”  Any Catholic who did so could plausibly be accused of oversensitivity and of a failure of objectivity.  Similarly, it would be ridiculous to dismiss the other sample claims considered on the grounds that they must reflect mere “sugarphobic,” “tobaccophobic,” or “syphilisphobic” bigotry.  Anyone who made such bizarre accusations could plausibly be suspected of having some excessive attachment to sugary foods, to tobacco, or to acts of the sort liable to lead to syphilis, an attachment that keeps him from being objective about these things. 

By the same token, it would be ridiculous to dismiss McCarthy’s claim merely on the grounds that it must reflect nothing more than “Islamophobic” “bigotry.”  Indeed, McCarthy could fling an accusation of “Islamophilic bigotry” back at anyone who would make such a claim.  As I pointed out in the post on liberalism and Islam, there are several factors that predispose political liberals too quickly to dismiss the very suggestion that there might be a connection between Islamic doctrine on the one hand and violence and illiberal politics on the other.  For example, the very workability of liberalism as a political project presupposes that what John Rawls called “comprehensive doctrines,” or at least comprehensive doctrines with a large number of adherents, are compatible with basic liberal premises (and thus “reasonable,” as Rawlsian liberals conceive of “reasonableness”). If it turned out there is a “comprehensive doctrine” with a large number of adherents which is simply not compatible with basic liberal premises, that would be a very serious problem for the entire liberal project.  Hence liberals are bound to be reluctant to conclude that there is any such “comprehensive doctrine,” or to look for evidence that might support such a conclusion. 

Then there is the fact that egalitarianism is one of the dogmas of modern liberalism, just as the divinity of Christ is a dogma of Christianity or the divine origin of the Quran is a dogma of Islam.  Many liberals find it almost impossible to understand how even a mildly negative characterization of some religion, culture, or group could be anything but an expression of unreasoning hatred.  Hence epithets like “bigot” play, within liberalism, the same role that words like “heretic” often do within religion.  They are a means of silencing dissenters and sending a warning to anyone even considering dissent from egalitarianism.  The irony is that plugging one’s ears and screaming “Bigot!” at someone who is trying to present a reasoned argument is, of course, itself a kind of bigotry -- perhaps the worst kind, insofar as someone self-righteously in love with the idea that he is the paradigmatic anti-bigot is the least likely of all bigots to see his prejudices for what they are.

Again, see the earlier post on liberalism and Islam for discussion of other aspects of modern liberalism which can predispose many liberals against looking at Islam objectively.  The point for the moment is this.  On the one hand, McCarthy can note that any critic inclined to dismiss his position as mere bigotry should seriously consider that there are reasons why the critic may be himself less objective on the subject at hand than he likes to think he is.  And on the other hand, McCarthy can point to what one finds in Islamic scripture and law, in the history of terrorism during the last few decades, and indeed in the entire history of Islam as evidence in favor of his position.

Of course, that does not by itself demonstrate that McCarthy is right.  But any critic of McCarthy plausibly faces a “falsificationist challenge” of a sort that parallels the falsificationist challenge Antony Flew once raised against theists (a challenge I discussed in the earlier post on the logic of falsification).  Paraphrasing Flew, the challenge might be stated as follows:

What would have to occur or to have occurred to constitute for you a disproof of your claim that there is no special connection between Islam and terrorism, or between Islam and illiberal politics?

In other words, if evidence of the sort McCarthy cites does not establish his claim, what evidence will the critic admit would establish it?  Unless the critic can offer a serious response to this question, he cannot plausibly claim that it is he rather than McCarthy who is free of prejudice.

465 comments:

  1. Kal: "On the one hand, you have eminently reasonable Muslims like Omer. On the other hand, you have around twelve Muslim-majority countries in which homosexual activity, exposing the head, leaving Islam, "insulting" Muhammad, etc., warrants death or public lashing, in which non-Muslims are documented as second class citizens who enjoy fewer rights, in which a woman's word in court is worth half that of a man's word, in which, if she's raped, she needs at least 4 male eye witnesses in order for her charge to stand up in court, and in which the individuals who make all these laws invariably reference back to Islamic texts to substantiate their validity, and continually find support in enough legal scholars and theologians at prominent schools of Islamic jurisprudence and theology.



    Even if it turns out to be the case that "true Islam" is a peaceful, intellectually satisfying way of life, there seems to be something inherent to Islam - an unacceptable degree of textual pliability - that makes it far too easily co-optable by far too many forces of evil on far too large of a scale."



    Kal,

    Although I largely agree, you need to change this to read "inherent to Islam at the moment." If the proper version of Islam is in fact a peaceful one, then it's certainly possible for the faith to undergo a reformation in the future and largely rid itself of its violent and oppressive elements, just as other older religions have done throughout their histories.

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  2. Vincent Torley said ... Omer, Don Jindra and DNW,

    Regarding the accusation that the Bible authorizes rape, you might like to have a look at what I wrote on the subject here:

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/guardian-reporter-nick-cohen-asks-are-isis-and-the-judeo-christian-tradition-morally-equivalent/

    Cheers.
    May 11, 2016 at 11:39 AM "





    Hello Vincent,

    I'll take a look.

    I don't recall that being brought up here though, although it might have.

    As someone who is not particularly concerned to defend every jot and tittle found in the Scriptures, I nonetheless am perplexed by various attempts to morally indict certain passages or injunctions found in the Bible, by persons who are themselves moral relativists.

    Now of course if they merely mean to point out what they believe to be some textual inconsistency, it is one thing.

    However:

    1. often enough they seem to be basing their indictment on the Biblical conception of an objective standard of value which they reject as unreal in the first place.

    2.they seem unwilling to fully address the so called Euthyphro dilemma which has often enough been discussed here: and in so doing to either affirm one or the other horns [the objective or the subjective] (in human terms) or alternatively to do as a classical theist might and reject it as false dilemma - while explaining why. As one might say if one were a classical theist, that to create reality and its ends by willing it into existence, is to simultaneously both will the good and create the objective standard; an option which those who believed in an eternally existing uncreated universe, would not have the logical option of stipulating.

    For an example of mindless indictments, I have seen the hysterical accusation by some that the Bible commands the "murder of innocent 5 year olds" by commanding Amalekite "genocide". This of course is so utterly problematical in a secular-relativist-nominalist formulation based on their own ground-level assumptions, as to make the accusation objectively meaningless in any moral sense except as a personal expression of historically projected indignation.

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  3. Vincent,

    I'm not sure what you mean by overwhelmingly. Certainly, as I noted, many early Sunni writers indicate she was nine or ten, even if they also give conflicting indications. But it must be said that the hadith are mostly focused on the teachings of Islam and are less concerned with historical accuracy. The Sunni hadith also clearly concerned to portray Aisha as Muhammed's only virgin wife. The Koran itself makes it clear that only adults may marry. Adult here is likely to be defined as those who have reached puberty (which, although it conflicts with our modern mores, was very common in the pre-modern world). Unless Aisha reached puberty by nine - possible but unlikely - then she was presumably older, or Muhammed flagrantly set aside his own teaching.

    There are early sources that indicate she was older than nine or ten, directly or indirectly. For example, Aisha married Muhammed around 619AD and the marriage was consummated in 622AD. Ibn Hashim indicates she had converted to Islam around 613AD. This suggests she may well have been older than nine or ten in 619. Tabari reports that all Abu Bakr's children were born before the revelation to Muhammed around 610AD. Bukhari himself at one point gives a conflicting account of her age, suggesting she was a young girl already, between 7-12, when nine years before the Hijra, in 622. Most of the early sources suggest Aisha's sister, Asma, was ten years older than Aisha. Some sources suggest this sister was 27 to 28 at the time of the Hijra, making Aisha 17 or 18 in the year the marriage was consummated. There are other indications that Aisha was older that could be quoted. Anyway, the point is it is very much open to question what her age was.

    You correct about the Jews slaughtered, except to say that it was those who were killed or enslaved were from a tribe who had broken a treaty with the Muslims. But it is very true that those assessing Muhammed have to deal with his actions here (actions, it must be said, that are reminiscent of Old Testament Kings and Patriarchs).

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  4. There's only one relevant question here: did I mean to call Ed a bigot?

    This is relevant to your personal disagreement with Dr. Feser, but I think what is most relevant to a general intellectual discussion is your view, seemingly, that ideologies and religious beliefs cannot be significant motives for bad behaviour.

    These hits include headline articles from sites like CNN, Salon, Jezebel, Huffington Post, and other major publications.

    Just an aside, but with the possible exception of CNN and very occasionally Huffington Post, those are terrible, terrible publications. Writers at Jezebel and Salon couldn't go two lines without calling someone a bigot, and usually the same is true for Huffington Post (and often even CNN). I'm not sure you have chosen the best sources for any grown up discussion on bigotry.

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  5. Chad writes,


    Now I maintain that there is, at least, a recent tradition of calling arguments and not people bigoted, and that, whatever you feel about the utility or propriety of this recent tradition, you don't have the right to decide for me my intent on using the word.

    But we have a perfect right to question whether or not, given the meaning of the term bigoted, it makes sense to call an argument bigoted.

    A bigot is someone who acts, usually in a dismissive or intolerant ways, on unexamined assumptions whilst refusing to consider opposing views. Maybe you could argue that some arguments are so flawed, so lacking in a proper attempt to grasp the positions they attack, that they are inherently bigoted. Still, I think that it is perfectly okay to question whether this makes sense. Whether one can appropriately call an argument bigoted.

    Just as importantly, your argument was weak. It was a claim that the complexity of real life human motives means that we cannot see the Koran, or presumably any other religious or ideological belief system, as a major motive for violence. Your argument also didn't deal with Dr. Feser's points in any real way, implying, as some have said, a knee jerk rejection of the possibility that Islam could intrinsically preach violence. Indeed, you are acting in a pretty standard way that many left-liberals do when Islam's relation to violence and terrorism is brought up. They murmour something about Islam being a religion of a billion people and being open to many interpretations. But they give no indication of any real knowledge of Islam or recognition that its Scriptures may preach violence openly. They essentially just assume that white Westerners must be wrong and bigoted in attacking a religion mostly of non-white, non-Westerners. This is, of course, standard for many left-liberals; they see the world entirely in terms of vague power relations between groups. It is a silly and bigoted way of viewing issues like this, as there is no real attempt to consider the opposing position or deal with the issues properly. I actually agree that many attacks on Islam are wrong and even simplistic and ignorant. I have a great respect for Islam in its historic tradition. But left-liberal defences of Islam, usually accompanied by copious use of terms like bigot, racist, and Islamophobic, are no better.

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  6. @Jeremy Taylor

    Jeremy,

    Thanks much for the many evidences that the allegation of Aisha's age of 9 is incorrect and that she was likely much older.

    There are so many evidence that it is hard to remember all of them. A few additional ones

    to what you mentioned is at

    http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm

    Interestingly the key narrator Hisham Urwa was only 1 year old when Aisha died.

    Also he lived in Madina for over 70 years and recounted a large number of hadith including I would assume hadith on Aisha but none of those hadith recounts her age as nine years. Then when he moves to the sectarian region of Iraq when it was advantageous for him to say she was young to bolster Sunni view versus Shia view (for various reasons...remember Aisha was very political...she fought against Ali), suddenly the hadith emerges of her being that young to give her a higher image in that cultural context. Moreover, hadith scholars say that Hisham had senility when he was in Iraq.

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  7. @Jeremy Taylor

    Regarding the allegation of slaughter of Jewish adult males who had broken the treaty of Madina and aided the pagans in coming to annihilate the Muslims, who were neighbors to the Tribe of Qurayza, there is strong evidence that the allegation is greatly exaggerated.

    All the hadith say that the Jewish fighers were killed, not adult Jewish males as mentioned by Ibn Ishaq who did not use hadith methodology of recounting the chain of narrators but instead Ibn Ishaq included heresay. That is one reason, his contemporary the jurist, Malik Bin Anas, the leader of the legal school among Sunnis named after him (the Malikis) said that Ibn Ishaq is a liar and imposter. Ibn Hajar Al-Askalani, considered by many Sunnis to be the greatest Hadith expert of all time, called Ibn Ishaq's account of the Qurayza episode as "odd tales."

    There is much more as the following article in the professional journal explains how Ibn Ishaq's account is false.

    http://19.org/blog/banu-qurayza/

    Even the Qur'an mentions that some were killed and some taken captive...it thus flatly contradicts Ibn Ishaq who was born some 150 years after the Qur'an.

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  8. Jeremy Taylor said...

    " Vincent,

    I'm not sure what you mean by overwhelmingly. Certainly, as I noted, many early Sunni writers indicate she was nine or ten, even if they also give conflicting indications. But it must be said that the hadith are mostly focused on the teachings of Islam and are less concerned with historical accuracy. "



    Well then, you have to come up with a plausible reason for their matter of fact reports that she was playing with dolls when he married her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XUVRmqwf8U

    In any event, this is probably a good reason to ask Muslims who suggest Islam as a sound religious and moral practice, just what status these Hadiths have within the kind of Islam they endorse. Are they considered quasi-scriptures or authoritative in any way? Do they purport to have any truth value whatsoever? What possible utility has a so-called report which one stipulates cannot be trusted; by what standard are these reports to be judged; and is not a Muslim leveraging a false hadith, actually promoting falsehood and therefore social evil?


    Wiki: "In Islamic terminology according to Juan Campo, the term hadith refers to reports of statements or actions of Muhammad, or of his tacit approval or criticism of something said or done in his presence, though some sources (Khaled Abou El Fadl) limit hadith to verbal reports and include the deeds of Muhammad and reports about his companions only in the Sunnah.

    Classical hadith specialist Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani says that the intended meaning of hadith in religious tradition is something attributed to Muhammad but that is not found in the Quran. Other associated words possess similar meanings including: khabar (news, information) often refers to reports about Muhammad, but sometimes refers to traditions about his companions and their successors from the following generation; conversely, athar (trace, vestige) usually refers to traditions about the companions and successors, though sometimes connotes traditions about Muhammad. The word sunnah (custom) is also used in reference to a normative custom of Muhammad or the early Muslim community."


    "The hadith also had a profound and controversial influence on moulding the commentaries (tafsir) on the Quran. The earliest commentary of the Quran by Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari is mostly sourced from the hadith. The hadith was used in forming the basis of 'Shariah' law. ..."

    Law based on a supposed prophet's supposed sayings, with the proviso that one cannot trust that the supposed prophet even said the supposed sayings. What a program.

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  9. DNW,

    No, execrating someone is not the equivalent of crucifying or burning. But you mentioned a verse. I'm saying that the verse is a curse. It does not necessarily imply Christians must leave unbelievers alone in all circumstances. History has shown that leaving unbelievers alone is not a universal Christian practice. It's not how you or I can spin the text. It's how others spin the text and/or put it into practice. That's what I'm trying to establish. I quote John Calvin in that regard. I cite his actions.

    I'm aware of the fact that Calvin could be called heretic. This is partly intentional since I don't want to be accused of beating up on Catholics. But Calvin was extremely knowledgeable and influential. I too would call him a mental case. But I say the same about leaders of ISIS. That's what moderate Muslims say about ISIS beliefs. Yet you seem to imply their thinking is irrelevant while you reserve your right to make the same complaint about me citing Calvin.

    You imply "judgment day" is understood to be something beyond human control in a political sense. Yet you, yourself, slip into that mode with your reference to sodomites. You think they cost you money. Therefore the collective "we" should "draw boundaries" at least partly based on today's budgetary concerns. Divine judgment becomes an all-too-human balance sheet.

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  10. Vincent Torley,

    In regard to your link, I could say a lot about it. But I'll only point out a general problem I see with rebuttals like this. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 does not counter Nick Cohen's accusation. It confirms it. It says the rapist must be "nice" about the act, giving the woman a roof over her head and time to think about her fate while she grows her hair back. The act is still against her will no matter how pleasant the environment. One might say that at that time in history the beautiful woman might starve to death without the kindness of her rapist. So in this regard the law is humane, even if conveniently self-serving for the man. But if law is bound to historical circumstances how does one evade the charge of relativism? I say one cannot. If biblical laws were a series of "only for a certain period of time" laws, why the fuss about the Ten Commandments? After all, not even murder can be pinned down to an objective definition. Fact is, the Bible is a morally relativistic document and has been consistently used that way throughout history. I'm just thankful that through things like the Enlightenment we in the West have relegated biblical evidence to the back burner. Until Islam does the same its users will stay stuck in medieval quicksand.



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  11. Vincent:

    This is more than worth responding to, sorry I missed it:

    What you mean is that one should not make an argument against another religion if one is unwilling to accept the force of that same argument against one's own religion.

    Yes, exactly.

    I think that in order for any religion to merit serious consideration as being true, it must have made the world a better place. As Jesus Himself said, "By their fruits ye shall know them."

    Agreed.

    I've calculated that Christianity saved about 200 million lives during the 1,000 years following its adoption, mainly through the abolition of female infanticide, which was rampant in the Roman Empire. See here and scroll down to section 3.1.6: http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/whybelieve3.html

    That seems reasonable. But in fairness, this article says that Islam also forbids female infanticide, which was at least as widely practiced in the Arab world as it was in the Roman world:

    http://www.islamawareness.net/FamilyPlanning/Infanticide/fit_article001.html

    Have you crunched the numbers on how many lives Islam saved by doing so?

    By contrast, even the worst enemies of Christianity accuse it of having caused 57 million deaths. I would personally argue that 20 million would be a more accurate figure, when we take diminished responsibility into account. You can read more about these figures here: http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/whybelieve7.html#church-atrocities . You shoulad also read this humorous but insightful online essay: "Which Has Killed More People? Christianity or Gun Control?" by atrocitologist Matthew White at http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/gunsorxp.htm .

    Are we using the same metric to compare deaths attributable to Christianity as to Islam? Are we counting the Old Testament massacres under the Christian tally? Are we counting the Rwandan and Serbian genocides? The Slave Trade? The Taipeng Rebellion in China, a Christian uprising in which some historians estimate as many as 100 million people may have been killed? (Undoubtedly, many or even most killed would have been Christians, but if the higher estimates are accurate, that war alone could easily add 20-30 million to the Christian tally.)

    200 million - 20 million = a net benefit of 180 million, so the benefits of Christianity are clear. If the figures were the other way round, then I'd have no choice but to reject it in favor of bare theism (theism without any revelation).

    That's way too hasty a calculation. We'd need to gather all allegations of all violence attributed to Christians and Muslims, then all allegations of lives saved, then consistently apply one methodology to distinguish the legitimate claims from the false ones.

    My point is, to seriously make this case would require a lot of work, and none of the people promoting Ed's thesis, including Ed, have done that work.

    With Islam, the number of deaths caused is somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 million.

    Where are you getting that number?

    What's more, the degree of responsibility is much higher, as Muhammad himself engaged in the evil practices his followers did. He and his armies personally slaughtered about 800 Jews who refused to assist him.

    From what I've read in the past few days, that incident is highly disputed, and it would take a lot of work to really figure out exactly what happened.

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  12. From what I've heard, the account of He also made sex slaves of the women who survived. He was also a pedophile: he consummated his marriage to his last wife, Aisha, when she was only nine years old. And he owned slaves.

    Again, from what I've read in the past few days, there is serious dispute over the age of Aisha, and many Muslim scholars and historians believe the youth of Aisha at the time of her marriage to Muhammad was exaggerrated in attempts to prove she was a virgin. Muhammad's wives were involved in the dispute over who would inherit the Empire after Muhammad's death. The faction supported by Aisha tried to boost the worth of her testimony over that of Muhammad's other wives by claiming that she was a virgin when she married Muhammad, and to do that, it is claimed, they may have deliberately invented stories to make it seem like she was younger than she was. Since Muhammad's other wives were mostly widows who obviously weren't virgins, they argued that Aisha's virgnity gave extra weight to her opinion. There is evidence that Aisha might have actually been as old as 19 when she and Muhammad were married. And at any rate, as Aisha was the daughter of a very influential figure who ended up becoming the first caliphate, it's pretty clear that Muhammad did not marry Aisha because he was a pedophile but for political reasons. Most of his wives, even his first wife, were either powerful women themselves or related to powerful men. If anything, Muhammad didn't marry to satisfy his sexual desires but to solidify his power. Is that a much sloppier moral record than that of Jesus? Of course. Is it fair to call Muhammad a pedophile or a philanderer on this basis? Of course not.

    Now, I didn't know this until yesterday, and I assume there's lots of other things you and I don't know about the history of Islam that are relevant to this argument. That's why neither you nor I nor Ed nor Andrew McCarthy are qualified to make it.

    Need I say more?

    If you want to establish that Jesus is a greater moral figure than Muhammad? No.

    If you want to prove that Islam has killed significantly more people than Christianity throughout history, then yes, you need to say a lot more.

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  13. And I realize that many here would say that Ed doesn't need to claim that Islam has killed more people than Christianity to make the argument that there is a causal link between Islam and violence. I think this results from a conflation of Ed's claim and McCarthy's claim. McCathy's claim is merely that some legitimate interpretation of Islam could be used to defend an act of terror. I'd say that nobody in the discussion, including McCarthy, knows enough about Islam to say whether that's true or not. McCarthy seems to admit this himself, all he's saying is that it's equally the case that no one, including President Obama, knows enough about Islam to say it's false.

    But Ed's case goes further and says that there is a causal link between Islam and violence. I've argued that for that causal case to be interesting to anyone, it would need to be the case that Islam is a significant causal factor in increasing levels of violence. Arguments over food can be a cause of violence; that something can be a cause of violence is uninteresting. It's only if some causal factor entails a significant risk of violence, that it hypothetically can cause violence isn't even a thesis worth defending. So I would argue that in order to make Ed's argument more than trivially true, you do need to show that Islam entails some significant risk of violence, more so than other religions or other movements.

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  14. Chad,

    I'm glad finally to get away from the "bigotry" issue and to move on to another glaring deficiency in your comments in this thread, a deficiency which has come up again in your latest remarks. You keep saying that I assert a causal link between Islam and violence, that I have not done enough to establish such a link, etc. But once again, you demonstrate thereby only that you haven't read what I wrote very carefully, because that is simply not what I said in the post.

    The point of the post was not to assert that there is such a link, much less to marshal evidence in favor of such an assertion. The point was rather to raise a falsificationist challenge to those who would deny the assertion. That should have been obvious from the title of the post, from the emphasis on the parallel with Flew's article, and from the summarizing lines at the end of the post.

    Suppose someone read Flew's paper and responded: "But Flew, you haven't disproved theism, haven't shown that there is no way that God's existence can be reconciled with the existence of suffering, haven't responded to various arguments for God's existence, etc." Such a reader would have entirely missed the point of Flew's article, because Flew wasn't in the article even trying to do any of those things in the first place. What he was doing instead was raising a challenge to the theist to explain exactly what the theist would count as a falsification of the claim that God exists, or of the claim that God is all-good. A serious response to Flew, then, would either have to answer the question and explain what would falsify theism, or to show that Flew's question is in some way illegitimate (e.g. that it is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of theism).

    Now, similarly, someone who responds to what I wrote by saying: "But Ed, you haven't considered all the empirical evidence relevant to determining the relationship between Islam and violence, haven't done a historical comparative analysis with other religions, etc." is also simply missing the while point, because I was not trying to do any of that in the first place. What I was doing was asking the person who denies that there is any causal link between Islamic doctrine on the one hand and violence and illiberal politics on the other to explain what he would count as falsifying evidence, what he would count as a refutation of his denial. A serious response to what I wrote, then, would either have to answer that question, or to show that the question is somehow misconceived.

    Now, as I also argued, the question is not misconceived, because -- unlike a question of mathematics, logic, metaphysics, or philosophy of nature -- it is a relatively specific empirical question, and thus there should in principle be empirical evidence that would be incompatible with one side or the other of the question. Hence, I have argued, the only way seriously to respond to the falsificationist challenge would be to explain exactly what one would count as evidence that there really is a causal link of the sort in question after all.

    So, anything you say that does not address that question, that "falsificationist challenge", specifically -- for example, anything you say about the purportedly bigoted nature of arguments like McCarthy's, or about the alleged evidential deficiencies of arguments like McCarthy's, etc. -- simply doesn't address what I actually said in my original post, but merely changes the subject.

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  15. Blogger Don Jindra said... DNW,

    No, execrating someone is not the equivalent of crucifying or burning."


    Settled then. We agree the reaction which the Christian scripture counsels is not in fact commensurate with a Koranic command to crucify or burn recalcitrant unbelievers.

    "But you mentioned a verse. I'm saying that the verse is a curse. "

    So you say. I searched the word curse here, and did not find it in these expert commentaries. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/10-14.htm

    In fact, the verse which you contend supports the idea of a curse (understood in an antique manner), is a prediction perhaps like the temple stones if you concede that verse's timeline, but regarding Doomsday instead.

    A declaration of moral othering - in the hysterical terminology of these times - does not even rise to an execration, except in the most colloquial sense.

    "It [the verse] does not necessarily imply Christians must leave unbelievers alone in all circumstances."

    I don't know what you are intending to establish here by "necessarily imply Christians ... "; since the text places the injunction which meant just that - to have nothing to do with - in the context of Jesus' instruction to his disciples.

    "History has shown that leaving unbelievers alone is not a universal Christian practice."

    You've gone off the rails. The injunction was not to universally leave "unbelievers alone" but specified the manner of responding to a hostile and mocking rejection on the part of an unbeliever.

    "It's not how you or I can spin the text. It's how others spin the text and/or put it into practice. That's what I'm trying to establish. I quote John Calvin in that regard. I cite his actions.

    I'm aware of the fact that Calvin could be called heretic. This is partly intentional ... But Calvin was extremely knowledgeable and influential. I too would call him a mental case. But I say the same about leaders of ISIS. That's what moderate Muslims say about ISIS beliefs. Yet you seem to imply their thinking is irrelevant while you reserve your right to make the same complaint about me citing Calvin."


    Don, I said I did not understand what your retort was trying to establish, since the cases were prima facie not equivalent; and quoting Calvin did nothing to establish such an equivalence either on the grounds of his personal authority or textual reasoning; and that given that, I had no idea what the effect of introducing Calvin's opinions was supposed to produce - what logical or rhetorical freight they were expected to carry.

    It seems to me that you basically acknowledge the answer as regards the actual text in question, was: 'Effectually none'.

    "You imply "judgment day" is understood to be something beyond human control in a political sense."

    Certainly when we talk of the eschatology implicit in that scripture we were referencing.

    " Yet you, yourself, slip into that mode with your reference to sodomites. You think they cost you money. Therefore the collective "we" should "draw boundaries" at least partly based on today's budgetary concerns. Divine judgment becomes an all-too-human balance sheet. May 12, 2016 at 10:10 AM"

    I did not slip into the melding of modes: I deliberately used the term in its punning or equivocal sense in order to practically demonstrate that one need not even go so far as end-times judgments rendered by the hand of God Himself, in order to witness the pernicious fallout and damage to one's this-worldly prospects that results from a failure to limit the extent to which a recalcitrant behavioral alien can presume and draw upon a virtually unlimited shared liability system.

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  16. What I was doing was asking the person who denies that there is any causal link between Islamic doctrine on the one hand and violence and illiberal politics on the other to explain what he would count as falsifying evidence, what he would count as a refutation of his denial.

    I don't understand how you can say that my responses have been irrelevant to this. What would falsify the claim that there is no causal link between Islam and violence? That Islamic societies have, historically, all things being equal, been more violent than Non-Islamic societies.

    As I said in earlier posts with reference to analogies about smoking, if Islamic societies are no more violent than non-Islamic ones, if the presence of Islam in a society seems irrelevant to the rate of violence, then I would consider my denial of the claim vindicated.

    Now, maybe you'll convince me that that is an insufficient response to the challenge, but it is a direct response to the challenge, and one I have been making since my first post in the discussion. So, I don't see how you can accuse me of not responding to it.

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  17. *it* being the falsificationist challenge.

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  18. Just to be clear, I'm aware in your article that you said that even if other religions or ideologies cause violence, that wouldn't disprove the claim that Islam causes violence. I'd of course agree with this, but as I've said several times, including in one of my most recent posts, if Islam doesn't cause violence at a level that raises concern, then the question is uninteresting. Where I live, there's a big story in the papers about an employed, college graduate who killed his brother over a hamburger. That would prove that hamburgers are a causal factor contributing to violence. But unless there's an epidemic of people killing each other over hamburgers, who cares?

    So, I think the answer to the question "can Islam cause violence?" is a very trivial yes. Anything can cause violence. That's just not an interesting question. The only interesting question to me is: does the presence Islam inherently provide a significantly increased risk of violence? And I'd say to answer the interesting question, you'd have to do some historical analyis.

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  19. Chad,

    I didn't say you didn't respond at all to the falsificationist challenge. I said that (a) my post was only about that challenge, and not about giving some positive argumentation for there being a causal link between Islam and violence, so that therefore (b) your characterization of my position is to that extent mistaken, and therefore also (c) anything you say to the effect that I have failed to establish such a link is aimed at a straw man and irrelevant to addressing what I did in fact say.

    So, even though some of what you have said does address the falsificationist challenge (whether well or badly) you also say things that distract attention from it and which mis-characterize what I actually said. (Note that I am not accusing you of deliberate distraction or mis-characterization here. I am just emphasizing that the aim of the original post was much narrower than most of your remarks here imply, and that the post should be judged only by reference to that one narrow "falsificationist challenge" aim.)

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  20. (a) my post was only about that challenge, and not about giving some positive argumentation for there being a causal link between Islam and violence

    Granted.

    your characterization of my position is to that extent mistaken

    I don't entirely agree. To make the claim significant rather than trivial, I argue that you do need to be more explicit about what is meant by the claim that there is a link between Islam and violence. Does it just mean that someone somewhere committed an act of violence as a result of his personal interpretation of his Islamic faith? Does it mean that acts of violence are supported by an informed, reasonable, mainstream interpretation of Islam? Does it mean that Muslims are more likely to use violence than non-Muslims? As stated, I think even asking someone to deny the claim is premature, since it's not clear what it is they'd be denying. Therefore, it's not really fair to ask them what it would take to falsify a claim that is so vague.

    If the claim in question is meant to be McCarthy's claim, then I'd just argue you've not summarized it correctly. As I understand McCarthy, all he's saying is that it's possible that organizations like ISIS are operating from a legitimate interpretation of Islam. He didn't seem to be saying that there's an inherent link between Islam and violence, as your post seems to imply.

    Falsifying McCarthy's claim would be interesting and difficult, admittedly, and I can't think of a way it could be done.

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  21. To make the claim significant rather than trivial, I argue that you do need to be more explicit about what is meant by the claim that there is a link between Islam and violence.

    This seems to me just to misconceive the point of the argument again. It has a reference-point: the argument of McCarthy that there is specifically Islamic terrorism. It responds to critics of McCarthy's article by arguing, against them, that the kinds of considerations McCarthy are at least relevant to determining whether there were any kind of causal link. And it then turns this into the falsification challenge for the critics: If you think that there is no causal link, what would you count as disproving the claim. As he noted, Ed has never at any point argued that there is such a link, only that the kind of thing McCarthy is doing is the kind of thing one might do in order to establish one; and that, because of this, the critics need to clarify what they are doing in their criticisms by specifying what they think could show them to be wrong. The argument does not rely at any point on a particular kind of causal link, because Ed doesn't argue for any particular causal link; in a sense, the whole point is that if people are going to reject McCarthy's argument they need to specify which causal link they are denying, by way of saying what would establish it.

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  22. It has a reference-point: the argument of McCarthy that there is specifically Islamic terrorism.

    By "specifically Islamic terrorism" do you mean terrorism motivated by a proper understanding of Islamic theology? If so, then I still think you're the one misstating McCarthy's position. All he seems to commit to is that it's unknown or unclear whether "specifically Islamic terrorism" so defined exists, so our leaders should stop claiming to know that it does not/ cannot.

    He doesn't deploy imams as a causal mechanism to explain any general thesis about Islam and violence. All he says is that those imams are legitimate authorities on Islam and that some believe acts of terrorism can be justified by an accurate interpretation of Islam.

    It responds to critics of McCarthy's article by arguing, against them, that the kinds of considerations McCarthy are at least relevant to determining whether there were any kind of causal link.

    Before he does that, Ed should be clearer about the effect these causal links are supposed to bring about. As near as I can tell, "specifically Islamic terrorism" is your formulation and doesn't appear in either article.

    Ed's summation of McCarthy's article seems to suggest that the effect is some kind of ongoing, consistent link between Islam and violence.

    In my view, to whatever extent McCarthy's article is even relevant to Ed's larger thesis, he's only talking about specific, individual acts of violence, like the Charlie Hedbo murders.

    So is the effect we're talking about some general, identifiable, persistent correlation between Islam and violence, or just some specific, sporadic incident(s) of violence involving Muslims?

    As I've said, what would falsify my belief that the former is false is persistently higher levels of violence in Muslim societies than in non-Muslim societies. I can't say what would falsify the belief that the latter is false, and I'm not sure that latter is false.

    (And again, I think that was McCarthy's actual point - not that he knows for sure that Islam, legitimately interpreted, can cause acts of terrorism, but rather that no one knows for sure that it cannot.)



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  23. DNW,

    Matter of fact or not, I don't see how that changes matters. It is certainly true important early sources do suggest Aisha was nine at the consummation of the marriage. The point is simply that there are conflicting reports.

    The Hadith are meant to provide an authoritative account of Muhammed's teachings. They are second in authority to the Koran. But they are mostly focused on the teachings of Islam, not on getting all the details of Muhammed's life correct. I don't see much of a difference here between the Scriptures of faiths. We do not look to the Bible, even the New Testament, as infallible history. I don't think we should hold Islam to a different standard.

    Chad writes,

    As I've said, what would falsify my belief that the former is false is persistently higher levels of violence in Muslim societies than in non-Muslim societies. I can't say what would falsify the belief that the latter is false, and I'm not sure that latter is false.

    This would, perhaps. But I think another way of falsifying it is if Islam clearly preached violence; if the Koran clearly preached violence, for example. Whether or not Muslims always obeyed this, I think it would still show a link between Islam and violence; and, as long as we take the sensible position that sometimes people are actually motivated by religious and ideological beliefs, we would expect Muslims to sometimes act on this call to violence.

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  24. The Taipeng Rebellion in China, a Christian uprising in which some historians estimate as many as 100 million people may have been killed?

    The main group involved in this rebellion was an off-shoot of Christianity, like Mormonism, not Christians themselves. There leader claimed to be a brother of Jesus.

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  25. @Dr. Feser: "The point of the post was not to assert that there is such a link, much less to marshal evidence in favor of such an assertion. The point was rather to raise a falsificationist challenge to those who would deny the assertion. That should have been obvious from the title of the post, from the emphasis on the parallel with Flew's article, and from the summarizing lines at the end of the post."

    That that was the point was indeed clear. (Hence my thanks to HAA and Omer in responding to it, etc.) However, I at least read you as implying in passing that you do in fact think that there is such a link, when you said, "By contrast, from the beginnings of Islam there has been no distinction between the religious sphere of life on the one hand, and the political and military spheres on the other. Muhammad was prophet, statesman, and general all rolled into one, and the history of Islam has always reflected this conflation of roles." Of course, if there is no distinction, that would imply that there is a continuity; and the continuity would be between the life of one in the role of general, and the military sphere, and one who was in the role of prophet and statesman, and the religious and political spheres; and the role of general, and the sphere of the military, seem inherently violent; and therefore if "the history of Islam has always reflected this conflation of roles", then it would seem you think there is a link between Islam and violence, even though claiming so is not the point of this post. Hence the last paragraph of my reply to ShadowWhoWalks.

    Obviously whatever it is that you think about that is itself long post, or maybe a book.

    @Vincent Torley: "I can only say: if the holiness of the Church constitutes evidence for its being from God, then by the same token, diabolical behavior on the part of its members would constitute contrary evidence - especially when such behavior is religiously motivated."

    Agreed. But *evidence* can be small or great, conclusive or inconclusive, circumstantial or direct...

    "Faced with evidence of both personal sanctity and religiously motivated diabolical wickedness on the part of adherents of a particular religion, the only rational thing to do is to weigh up the good and the bad, and see which predominates."

    I agree that that is *a* rational thing to do.

    "I have argued that in the case of Christianity, the good outweighs the evil by a factor of 10:1 (which is actually a fairly conservative estimate, by the way, as I left out lives saved by the prohibition of abortion), in terms of lives saved vs. lives destroyed. But if the ratio were the other way round, surely that would constitute good evidence that Christianity was not from God."

    Yes, that would be good evidence.

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  26. But of course, you did not but loosely argue that in the case of Christianity, the the good outweighs the evil by a factor of 10:1. You argued that in that case, the earthly goods outweigh the earthly evils by a factor of 10:1.

    "Ask yourself this: just how evil would the Church have to be, before you would reject claims for its Divine origin?"

    I don't know that there is a point, logically speaking, at which I would reject such claims. For would that not be a parallel to the logical argument from evil? ("Ask yourself this: just how evil would the world have to be, before you would reject claims for its divine origin?" Shades of Plantinga!)

    But morally speaking, I might return my ticket rather early.

    "Are you saying that no amount of evil could sway you? In that case, what are we to make of Jesus' saying, 'By their fruits ye shall know them'"?

    Oh no, I could be swayed by some evil. I'm just not sure that's the right measure. Sure, 'By their fruits ye shall know them'--but (as this comment section has been asking), which *are* the fruits? And, I would further ask, how *else* do we know them?

    That we might accept Christianity because the good outweighs the evil by a factor of 10:1! Let us hope Jesus never has to compete with Norman Borlaug, or the Church with indoor plumbing.

    "And, though they concern us so greatly, and are, indeed, indispensable for our life and thought, the sciences are in a certain sense more foreign to us than philosophy. They fulfil a more objective end—that is to say, an end more external to ourselves. They are fundamentally a matter of economics. A new scientific discovery, of the kind called theoretical, is, like a mechanical discovery—that of the steam-engine, the telephone, the phonograph, or the aeroplane—a thing which is useful for something else. Thus the telephone may be useful to us in enabling us to communicate at a distance with the woman we love. But she, wherefore is she useful to us? A man takes an electric tram to go to hear an opera, and asks himself, Which, in this case, is the more useful, the tram or the opera?"--*Tragic sense of Life*

    So "Christianity saved about 200 million lives during the 1,000 years following its adoption, mainly through the abolition of female infanticide"! Well, and that is a magnificent thing. But which is more useful, those lives, or what they lived for? Or is that still not yet the right question?

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  27. Russell somewhere said--I wish I could remember where--something like that in Moore's philosophy, there were no shadows or moonlit nights, but only ever sunny days at noon.

    "[S]adness lies at the heart of every merely positivistic, agnostic, or naturalistic scheme of philosophy. Let sanguine healthy-mindedness do its best with its strange power of living in the moment and ignoring and forgetting, still the evil background is really there to be thought of, and the skull will grin in at the banquet. In the practical life of the individual, we know how his whole gloom or glee about any present fact depends on the remoter schemes and hopes with which it stands related. Its significance and framing give it the chief part of its value. Let it be known to lead nowhere, and however agreeable it may be in its immediacy, its glow and gilding vanish. The old man, sick with an insidious internal disease, may laugh and quaff his wine at first as well as ever, but he knows his fate now, for the doctors have revealed it; and the knowledge knocks the satisfaction out of all these functions. They are partners of death and the worm is their brother, and they turn to a mere flatness. / The lustre of the present hour is always borrowed from the background of possibilities it goes with. Let our common experiences be enveloped in an eternal moral order; let our suffering have an immortal significance; let Heaven smile upon the earth, and deities pay their visits; let faith and hope be the atmosphere which man breathes in;- and his days pass by with zest; they stir with prospects, they thrill with remoter values. Place round them on the contrary the curdling cold and gloom and absence of all permanent meaning which for pure naturalism and the popular science evolutionism of our time are all that is visible ultimately, and the thrill stops short, or turns rather to an anxious trembling. [...] In our own attitude, not yet abandoned, of impartial onlookers, what are we to say of this quarrel? It seems to me that we are bound to say that morbid-mindedness ranges over the wider scale of experience, and that its survey is the one that overlaps. The method of averting one's attention from evil, and living simply in the light of good is splendid as long as it will work. It will work with many persons; it will work far more generally than most of us are ready to suppose; and within the sphere of its successful operation there is nothing to be said against it as a religious solution. But it breaks down impotently as soon as melancholy comes; and even though one be quite free from melancholy one's self, there is no doubt that healthy-mindedness is inadequate as a philosophical doctrine, because the evil facts which it refuses positively to account for are a genuine portion of reality; and they may after all be the best key to life's significance, and possibly the only openers of our eyes to the deepest levels of truth."--*Varieties of Religious Experience*

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  28. The main group involved in this rebellion was an off-shoot of Christianity, like Mormonism, not Christians themselves.

    I'm sure many Muslims might say the same thing about groups like ISIS. We parse every purported act of Christian violence to death but we swallow every tale about Muslim violence whole.

    I don't know about you, but I don't know much of anything about the Islamic religion. I couldn't tell you the difference between a Shia and a Sunni without using google. I know far less about Islamic history than I do about Islam itself. I think I'm typical in that regard. So when Westerners start putting out arguments against Islam, I'm skeptical. I'm betting lots of typical anti-Muslim lines (like the one about Muhammad being a pedophile) are basically Ken-Ham-level anti-Muslim apologetics, but most of us don't know enough about Islamic history to realize it.

    So when it comes to putting together some systematic argument about Christanity's violence vs Islam's (which, I concede, isn't relevant to Ed's argument), I'm skeptical anybody in the conversation, including McCarthy, is qualified to do it.

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  29. I would hardly say I'm an expert, but I have a reasonable knowledge of Islam and its history. I have great respect for Islam.

    It is perfectly true it can be hard to draw the line where an off-shoot becomes a new religion. But at some point it becomes true that the off-shoot has diverged enough to be a separate faith. After all, Islam itself was influenced by Christianity and claims Christ as a prophet, but we don't consider the former part of the latter. At some point between Baptists and Mormons or Muslims Christianity proper ends, I would say. I would say that once someone has started claiming their own revelation, as is the case for the Taipengs, they are likely to not be Christians any more. The same is true for Islam. I would not say the Druze or Baha'i are Muslims. Of course, it is hard to be exact, but there is a line somewhere.

    ISIS distorts much of traditional Islam, it is true. But not the in same way Mormons do to Christianity. ISIS's deviations are moral. They are like the distortions of the Major-Generals or Calvin's Geneva.

    A paedophile is someone who is primarily attracted to pre-pubescents, technically. There is no suggestion this applies to Muhammed. He might have been a paedophile in colloquial terms - an adult who engages in sexual activity with someone under 16 or whatever - but he wasn't technically a paedophile. It is true that some of the major early sources do claim Aisha was nine when the marriage was consummated, whether or not she had reached puberty. It is simply that this is not as set in stone as some critics of Islam claim.

    Certainly, many critics of Islam are as ignorant of it as you claim. But it is also true that many left-liberal defenders of it are just as ignorant and defend it from some knee-jerk view that white Westerners must be wrong and non-white, non-Westerners must be right.

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  30. By "specifically Islamic terrorism" do you mean terrorism motivated by a proper understanding of Islamic theology?

    I have no notion whatsoever what you mean by 'a proper understanding of Islamic theology'; the phrase doesn't even appear to make any sense in this context, since there has not been any discussion whatsoever of normative claims such as how it is 'properly' to be understood.

    McCarthy explicitly states the existence of terrorism arising out of certain kinds of Islamic supremacism; this is what is at issue here, and it is what has always been at issue here.

    Ed's summation of McCarthy's article seems to suggest that the effect is some kind of ongoing, consistent link between Islam and violence.

    No, this is entirely in your head. He explicitly notes that McCarthy's view explicitly about not all Muslims and explicitly not concerned with all interpretations of Islamic doctrine. And it is quite clear from Ed's summary that it is the cause of jihadist acts that is at issue; to read the inference from effect to the kind of cause it has as if it were claiming a necessity from cause to effect, as is required for your description of 'ongoing, consistent', is a logical error of your own making, not Ed's.

    And as for the rest of your comment, I just pointed out what Ed is doing; he was not putting forward a 'larger thesis' about Islam and violence. Since it is unclear what causal links McCarthy's critics are rejecting, Ed is not suggesting any particular properties to the causal link (since he doesn't know what they think they are rejecting, if indeed they themselves know), but concludes that, since their arguments do not particularly militate against the consideration McCarthy uses, they need to clarify what causal links they are rejecting in McCarthy's argument by answering the falsification question.

    To quote Ed himself:

    The point of the post was not to assert that there is such a link, much less to marshal evidence in favor of such an assertion. The point was rather to raise a falsificationist challenge to those who would deny the assertion. That should have been obvious from the title of the post, from the emphasis on the parallel with Flew's article, and from the summarizing lines at the end of the post.

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  31. When you want to find out about a subject, the smart thing to do is go to those who are most knowledgeable. This is true for any field of study, be it physics, philosophy, football, or religion. I would be utterly foolish to start arguing that Aquinas didn't know what the heck he was talking about if I didn't know anything about the act/potency real distinction. Therefore, it would make sense then to study the actual sources of the faith that is in question from those who are the most knowledgeable in order to increase one's knowledge and form an understanding of it. Now, there is obviously no central authority in Islam like Catholicism. However, what serves as the authority in spririt in Islam is the Qur'an itself and its proper contextual interpretation in light of the meaning of classical Arabic language. Then there are the secondary sources Hadiths that are asserted to expound upon alleged things not detailed in the Qur'an, and there is a whole "science" of Hadith that surrounds the classification of them based on the idea of linked chains of narrations going back to the prophet and the alleged reliability of their transmitters. While there is no "The Church" in Islam, there is what can be considered a functional body of knowledgeable believers who are qualified as "scholars" via their immense study of the source materials, who form a majority body of knowledgeable believers under the appellation "Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah", who are trusted to speak on the behalf of the Muslims, that can be analogously considered to "The Church", i.e. those who form its high-ranking knowledgeable members of the religion, e.g., bishops and priests. And they have thoroughly rejected ISIS as representative of Islam in any form whatsoever no just in name, but via argumentation provided from both the religion's primary and secondary sources. If you don't study from source material in a proper manner, or from those who have the most knowledge on a subject, and rely on second hand information, you're right away shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to obtaining accurate information. I'm not claiming that anywhere here is, just that this is the proper prescriptive method that one should follow for knowledge.

    Peace.

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  32. "Jeremy Taylor said...

    DNW,

    Matter of fact or not, I don't see how that changes matters. It is certainly true important early sources do suggest Aisha was nine at the consummation of the marriage. The point is simply that there are conflicting reports."



    And ... if some of the reports in conflict are true, then others which contradict them are not. And, if the reports that are contradicted are untrue, then they are not worthy of assent as true, nor of respect as part of a cannon upon which morally edified persons rely or take seriously as valuable life-way instruction.

    And furthermore, if some of the historical propositional content of some hadiths are true and that of some others false, and those that assert that this fellow had sexual relations with a 9 year old girl playing with dolls, then it is clear that this fellow is a member of a completely different moral species, or evil, or insane.

    In which case he has noting useful or trustworthy to say regarding how men should live or approach the existential questions which inevitably confront us all.

    I acknowledge that many people are interested in approaching any "religion" as a kind of human phenomenon, which regardless of substantive content develops a kind of social reality and validity apart from any fact claims regarding its historical origins; and thus should be judged in these social phenomenon terms. That, is an approach I am simply not interested in; and would frankly, prefer war to the kind of suffocating and ridiculous life that leads to. Who needs to take on an extra layer of bullshit in one's sociopolitical life just to assuage the sensibilities of a person who is clearly endorsing nonsense?

    I personally have met many Mormons, for example. And as a rule, I have not met better or more amiable casual acquaintances. But like many who have traveled, I have had the opportunity to read their Book of Mormon, and a bigger load pseudo-scripture, imitative gibberish, adorned with a few commonplace nuggets of platitudinous truth, you will not come across, other than perhaps in the Koran.


    The Hadith are meant to provide an authoritative account of Muhammed's teachings. They are second in authority to the Koran. But they are mostly focused on the teachings of Islam, not on getting all the details of Muhammed's life correct. I don't see much of a difference here between the Scriptures of faiths. We do not look to the Bible, even the New Testament, as infallible history. I don't think we should hold Islam to a different standard."

    The new Testament does not itself purport to be infallible history. Nor handed down by the Archangel Gabriel, or Moroni.

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  33. One other thing to bear in mind. Tolerance can, most likely, be a great virtue in a truly libertarian polity.

    This, is because a truly libertarian polity, for all its faults and shortcomings, allows othering, marginalization, shunning, blacklisting, and the zoning of human annoyances right out of your life: pretty much everything; short of active violence, in order to keep the obnoxious and irritating and uncongenial, and even ugly and stupid, at a healthful distance from your property and your circles of associates and exchange.

    However, the tolerance most people nowadays have in mind, is a foggy inclusive tolerance which is not reciprocal tolerance, nor really tolerance at all, but rather a covert moral claim on the part of the outsider for special consideration and inclusion and understanding; granted on the basis of premisses which are, seemingly, never clearly stated or adequately defended, if they are.

    If the problem of universals is the great philosophical problem, and the problem of the grounding of nominalist morality is currently the great ethical problem, then the non-reciprocal nature of liberal tolerance - a tolerance in rhetorical name only - is the great problem in progressive values logic and reasoning.

    We may rightly, according to our natures and upbringing, worry about wounding largely ingenuous Muslim persons, normally full of good-will and simple human aims.

    But there is no reason to accord a sheer body of doctrine the same respect; not on secular grounds; not on religious grounds, not on Darwinian grounds.

    It is only the historical claim which raises it to the level of potential moral significance in the first place.

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  34. Read: " have had the opportunity to read their Book of Mormon, and a bigger load pseudo-scripture,"

    as:

    " ... have had the opportunity to read their Book of Mormon, and a bigger load of pseudo-scripture,

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  35. DNW,

    Muslims do not claim the Hadith were revealed by the archangel Gabriel. The Hadith are simply supposed to be accounts of the sayings of Muhammed that have trustworthy links of transmission to the early days of Islam. But they aren't primarily concerned with giving an exact historical account of the Muhammad's life. Different collectiobs are given different weight by the various Islamic sects.

    Perhaps Muhammad did consumate his marriage with a nine year old. But, given the conflicting reports, it seems a double standard if one insists of interpting this historically and not viewing the Bible in such a way. Indeed, is there much Muhammad can be accused of that Biblical patriarchs and prophets cannot, even given the worst interpretation of his behaviour. Let's not set up double standards.

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  36. DNW,

    I'm almost happy for those Christians who interpret "shake off the dust" as a straightforward injunction to have nothing to do with non-believers. I'd quibble with the need for that sort of separation but that's a different issue.

    My position is that the verse is rarely applied that way and there's not much reason it should be.

    You say it's not a curse. Yet this is how Joseph Smith interpreted the verse in 1830: "And in whatsoever place ye shall enter, and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing, by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony, and cleansing your feet by the wayside."

    This is Matthew Arnold: "At their departure they must shake off the dust of their feet. In detestation of their wickedness; it was so abominable, that it did even pollute the ground they went upon, which must therefore be shaken off as a filthy thing.”

    That's no peace offering.

    Remember, these were words to the 12 disciples. Was it a statement to all Christians for all circumstances? What if you aren't a disciple? What if the non-believer is actively working against God? What if the town is your own town? You can't merely shake off the dust and leave in peace. For some, judgment day needs worldly help.

    For me, an unrepentant empiricist, the only important thing is this: If this is was mandate to live and let live, Christians routinely ignore it.

    I live in Hollywood. Every year my wife and I walk to Sunset and Highland and watch the limos arrive for the Academy Awards. Each year there are fanatics (who call themselves Christians) with posters and bullhorns shouting obscenities to the limos and crowd. These people aren't shaking the dust off their feet. They're not praying in the closet. IMO, they ignore virtually everything Jesus stood for (as most professing Christians do). They probably prefer Deuteronomy 13:12-15 -- "If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, 'Let us go and worship other gods' (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town."

    How is this different from Islam?

    Then we have Quran 109.1-6: "Say: O unbelievers! I do not serve that which you serve, Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve, Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion."

    How is this different than (or less tolerant than) Matthew 10:14?

    My position is that ancient text is virtually irrelevant. People interpret holy text any way they want, no matter the religion. It's always been this way and likely always will be.

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  37. Don: "My position is that ancient text is virtually irrelevant. People interpret holy text any way they want, no matter the religion. It's always been this way and likely always will be."

    Sure. But that's a stupid position. It's obviously not true, since it suggests that people's 'wants' (in respect of interpreting holy texts) are thoroughly cynical and that people are not interested in the truth. In which case the same diagnosis should apply, surely (if not, why not?), to people's interpretations of not-so-ancient texts - such as the one just quoted, for example - and from there - why not? - quite generally to all of their (our) understanding...

    FWIW, Chad, I think you are a bigot. And, I should add, I sympathize with your thought that "bigot" isn't much of a fighting word. (I'm probably a bigot too - on very rare occasions!) It just means you're too attached to your own views and as a result you have a hard time recognizing the justice of arguments showing that those views are ill-founded (i.e., a hard time being logical). You just keep flip-flopping and straw-manning and beating dead red herrings without ever honestly addressing die Sache selbst. All because of undue attachment to your own views - i.e., your bigotry.

    And bigotry causes stupidity. Thus, even when specifically warned about the dangers of the worst(?) kind of bigotry - knee-jerk "that's bigotry!"-bigotry - you blithely step right into it anyway.

    Anyway, bigotry is a vice, and the opposite - being too little attached to your own views - is a vice too, and it's a rare person that always hits the golden mean. (Thankfully there's the possibility of repentance, and forgiveness.)

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  38. "Jeremy Taylor said...
    DNW,

    Muslims do not claim the Hadith were revealed by the archangel Gabriel.


    The the specific texts Don and I were discussing as regards my earlier contrast, were from the Koran and The Gospel of Matthew.

    Later we have hadiths compared to the Gospels.

    The Hadith are simply supposed to be accounts of the sayings of Muhammed that have trustworthy links of transmission to the early days of Islam. But they aren't primarily concerned with giving an exact historical account of the Muhammad's life. Different collectiobs are given different weight by the various Islamic sects.

    Perhaps Muhammad did consumate his marriage with a nine year old. But, given the conflicting reports, it seems a double standard if one insists of interpting this historically and not viewing the Bible in such a way.


    If you wish to try and justify Mohammad's sexual behavior through a comparison with some Gospel text, please feel free.

    In fact, the Gospels in some ways serve as structural parallels for the hadiths; since as you know, no Gospel was written by Jesus, nor has there ever been a claim among orthodox Christians that they were. In fact some of the Gospels say exactly why they were written and for what purpose.

    Which is why, the Rheims Douay version which my mother had stipulates that 3 of these at least these were not even originally autographs by the apostles, and that two were most certainly written by evangelist disciples.

    So, when one compares the recounting of Christ's encounter with the woman caught in adultery, on the one hand, with the text which has Mohammad advising that woman caught in adultery should be stoned, then it seems that we are indeed comparing apples to apples - and it is up to you to estimate which fruit is the rotten one.

    Indeed, is there much Muhammad can be accused of that Biblical patriarchs and prophets cannot, even given the worst interpretation of his behaviour. Let's not set up double standards.
    May 13, 2016 at 10:29 AM


    I'm not sure you meant to say what you actually just said.

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  39. DNW,

    I was responding to your claims about Aisha's age. What you were referring to does not come from the Koran.

    The Hadith have a different place in the Islamic tradition to the Gospels in Christianity. I'm not sure how trying to compare these proves that we should take the Hadith as historical accounts (accounts that give conflicting impressions) in terms of Aisha's age.

    I also don't see why you are jumping to issue of Muhammad's views on the punishment for adultery, but, okay, these views, again, are comparable to those espoused in portions of the Bible.

    And, yes, obviously I meant to suggest it is hard to see, even on the worst interpretations, what Muhammad can be accused of that Biblical patriarchs and prophets cannot. There are double standards if we wave away the actions of those in the Bible. Yes, Jesus himself cannot be accused of many such actions, but it is not as if these the Patriarchs and Prophets are not explicitly or implicitly approved by the Bible in many of the same questionable actions. Leviticus, as is well known, proscribes death for adultery as well. Some of the questionable actions (like massacres or harsh punishments) are proscribed by God, according to the Bible; other actions (like David and Uriah and his wife) are condemned, but are not considered to prevent Biblical figures being moral and spiritual authorities. I don't think a Christian can simply shrug this off and point at Jesus. He has to do more work than that, if he wishes to make out that Muhammad's views on adultery are a great stain on Islam but passages like Leviticus are not the same for Christianity (it remains to be seen, of course, whether it is such a stain, as much as it offends our modern sensibilities). I don't deny that there are questions here for Muslims, as there are for Christians and Jews, but your approach is altogether too easy, too simplistic.




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  40. Some of the questionable actions (like massacres or harsh punishments) are proscribed by God, according to the Bible; other actions (like David and Uriah and his wife) are condemned, but are not considered to prevent Biblical figures being moral and spiritual authorities. I don't think a Christian can simply shrug this off and point at Jesus. He has to do more work than that, if he wishes to make out that Muhammad's views on adultery are a great stain on Islam but passages like Leviticus are not the same for Christianity (it remains to be seen, of course, whether it is such a stain, as much as it offends our modern sensibilities). I don't deny that there are questions here for Muslims, as there are for Christians and Jews, but your approach is altogether too easy, too simplistic.

    Jeremy,

    Doesn't one key difference lie in the fact that Muslims are told that Muhammad is the perfect example of a human being and should be emulated by all to the greatest extent possible, whereas Christians have no such obligation whatsoever towards the Old Testament figures, but rather only to Christ?

    Also, Christians do not read the Old Testament in the way that a devout Muslim is meant to read the Quran (as a set of oracles from God), but instead look at it allegorically.

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  41. It is certainly true the Islamic notion of a prophet-hood creates particular issues for Islam here. But it must be said that the Old Testament, and Christianity, do hold up some figures who act in questionable ways, even when their acts are condemned, as moral and spiritual authorities, with divine favour.

    Anyway, is not just the behaviour of those like David with Uriah and his wife, where there is condemnation. The Old Testament explicitly or implicitly seems to give divine sanction to things as questionable as those DNW brought up.

    Yes, it is true there are valid explanations for these questionable actions and commands for the Christian. But it is somewhat deeper than just saying it is allegory. Historical, moral, and allegorical readings are wound through the Old Testament, and the New. When Leviticus says kill adulterers, we can't just dismiss it immediately as allegorical. It will take a little more work. And the Koran is much the same as the Bible. It too is composed of many different types of material, with the same complexity of meanings and readings.


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  42. I don't understand why some commenting on this Combox have reservations about Prophet Muhammad's character.

    Jesus's ministry is said to be just three years long.

    If we take the first three years, indeed the first 13 years of the ministry of Prophet Muhammad, then we can all readily see that Prophet Muhammad taught the same message as Jesus.

    See the red letter Bible which in red shows the statements attributed to Jesus. The general consensus of critical scholars is that the "I am" statements of John's Gospel is not authentic as they are not present in the earlier Synoptic Gospels and since such statements would not have been left out in those earlier if Jesus really said them.

    But in some ways, Prophet Muhammad's struggles was far more intense.

    Who was Jesus preaching to? To Jews who already held the Torah as sacred and who also held the rest of the Tanakh as sacred, (although a little less sacred than the Torah).

    Who was Prophet Muhammad teaching to?

    For the first 13 years, he was teaching to his tribe, the Quraish who were virtually all pagans.

    Prophet Muhammad was alone...virtually all his family members and close relatives converted, many immediately since they experienced the beautiful character of the Prophet for many years.

    If Jesus's ministry lasted more than 3 years, and if the Romans started torturing his followers, killing his followers, boycotting and starving his family and followers, pushing his followers out into the desert, etc., would it be wrong for Jesus to allow his followers to resist.

    Is allowing your family and followers a crime?

    He did not do anything objectionable.

    I am asking everyone on this Combox, if you had lived 1.5 millenium ago in Arabia, would you stand up all alone against the Pagans and preach against their idolatry and all their crimes against the women, against the poor, against those who don't have tribes to support them?

    Would you continue to do so for year after year even after your family and relatives and followers are being threatened, tortured, killed, pushed into the scorching, desert, etc?

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  43. I am asking everyone on this Combox, if you had lived 1.5 millenium ago...

    Interesting thought experiment. Maybe. I don't really know.

    I also don't know what I might have done.

    But I live now, not 1.5 millenium ago, so have a bit of the benefit of something akin to hindsight.

    And I do not see it as being out the realm of possibility that I might have experienced resentment over the goings-on, that that resentment might have turned my thoughts, and that I might have thereby slowly, in a metastasizing kind of way, come to the conclusion that the dictates of resentment superceded the message of Christ.

    It also srikes me as likely that if I did come to that conclusion, I might very well have found some way to cast the reality of the matter in other terms more flattering to myself.

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  44. David M,

    "It's obviously not true, since it suggests that people's 'wants' (in respect of interpreting holy texts) are thoroughly cynical and that people are not interested in the truth."

    It might suggest that to you but not to me. People are very interested in truth. But they find moral truths in their own lives, not in holy books. They don't find it in holy books even when they claim that's where it's to be found. In reality they find confirmation of things they already believe or are prepared to believe. Experience always lays the groundwork. You may think this is cynical and stupid, but I think it's just human nature. And I think it's a good thing. It would be a horrible world if all it took for humans to hold firmly onto a moral position was to be exposed to carefully constructed tales. To me, that's the real cynicism. That would mean we are at the mercy of an elite who get to tell us incompetent pawns what's right and wrong.

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  45. In comparing and contrasting the moral pronouncements and behavior of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, with those supposedly manifest by Mohammad, and as recorded either in the Koran or the hadiths, in what possible world is it incumbent upon the one doing the comparing to freight Jesus with Old Testament patriarchs and kings in order to properly take a comparable moral measure of his preaching and life relative to Mohammad?

    What kind of logical inanity is that?

    And then of course, even if you do try to do so, there is still the the admittedly explicit Biblical condemnation of the sins of, say, David to consider ... as Jeremy felt bound to admit.

    But, but, but ... But what?

    Why not go whole hog then? And, when comparing the moral pronouncements of Jesus with Mohammad, just hang the crimes of Ahab and Jezebel around the neck of Jesus too, since Ahab and Jezebel are mentioned in the Old Testament? How about Cain, as well?

    So, for Mohammad apologists it works out this way:

    When evaluating the moral character and moral pronouncements of the Jesus of the Gospels relative to the character and preachments of Mohammad as supposedly recorded in the Koran and the hadiths, we have to remember to saddle Jesus with the behavior of the Old Testament patriarchs and possibly the kings - and who knows who else - to make it more even.

    And then too all the "good parts" of Jesus get added to Mohammad's balance sheet because some of the Koran verses are kind of like some of the Bible verses, and because the Koran has some respectful passages regarding the status of Jesus.

    So, that then, is how we are advised to compare and contrast the moral behavior and teachings of Jesus with regard to Mohammad.

    Because, because, ... well, who can say why coherently.

    Nobody here, apparently.

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  46. Blogger Omer said...

    I don't understand why some commenting on this Combox have reservations about Prophet Muhammad's character."


    Because the Islamic traditions and hadiths record him as a man who suffered from delusions, uttered the Satanic Verses, had multiple wives more than allowable according to his own rule, "married" when in middle age a child with dolls, and had sex with her at 9 years old, slaughtered unbelievers, engaged in banditry and so on and so forth.

    Now, you might say that these hadith stories cannot be believed on some basis or another though you have not stipulated what that rule is. And Wiki - welcome to the world of polemical editing - makes reference to supposedly "canonical hadiths" without however mentioning them by name or collection or the underlying rationale. According to you though there is no official body in Islam competent to make such a pronouncement in any event.

    So, when it comes to evaluating the character of Mohammad; meaning his veracity, his trustworthiness, his truthfulness, his reliability, his motivations, his very sanity, there is no way of sorting the false from the true; or even the doctrinal from the heterodox.

    If the Koran itself makes little sense, and you cannot trust the hadiths to tell you what it means, or to consistently reveal the authentic character or sayings of Mohammad, what have you got in the first place?

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  47. @Omer: "I don't understand why some commenting on this Combox have reservations about Prophet Muhammad's character."

    Come now, Omer. :) You have earned much respect by your intelligence and charity. Don't go spoiling that with disingenuousness. You understand very well why some here have reservations about Muhammad's character. Hence your efforts to refute the claim that Aisha was nine, and your efforts to refute the claim that adult Jewish males were slaughtered; not to mention your many previous efforts along the same lines. You are quite over-prepared for someone who cannot understand why some have reservations about Muhammad's character; and if you really could not understand why some have reservations about Muhammad's character, then you would spend more time extolling it, rather than arguing that it wasn't as bad as some think it was.

    "But in some ways, Prophet Muhammad's struggles was far more intense. / Who was Jesus preaching to? To Jews who already held the Torah as sacred and who also held the rest of the Tanakh as sacred, (although a little less sacred than the Torah). / Who was Prophet Muhammad teaching to? / For the first 13 years, he was teaching to his tribe, the Quraish who were virtually all pagans. / Prophet Muhammad was alone...virtually all his family members and close relatives converted, many immediately since they experienced the beautiful character of the Prophet for many years."

    Here's another example of your understanding. Of course, there is no point in emphasizing Muhammad's struggles unless someone of beautiful character would have done things differently had he not been struggling so.

    But more importantly, you're starting to undermine your own argument. It is one thing to argue that a commenter got this or that wrong about Islam. It is quite another (and implies a concession) to argue that Muhammad should be cut some slack, because he faced difficulty. That line of argument will come back to bite you, for it can be deployed very widely. (Go ahead, try it with someone you think odious. "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi for fourteen years faced incredible resistance to his work. He was jailed in Jordan, had his visa revoked by Pakistan, was hunted and bombed by the most powerful military in history...")

    "If Jesus's ministry lasted more than 3 years, and if the Romans started torturing his followers, killing his followers, boycotting and starving his family and followers, pushing his followers out into the desert, etc., would it be wrong for Jesus to allow his followers to resist[?]"

    I seem to remember that the Romans sometimes tortured and killed Christians. They may not have been pushed into the desert--were they? haven't checked--but some fled from the cities into the countryside. A notable form of resistance then was martyrdom (in which at least often no one but Christians themselves died).

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  48. "I am asking everyone on this Combox, if you had lived 1.5 millenium ago in Arabia, would you stand up all alone against the Pagans and preach against their idolatry and all their crimes against the women, against the poor, against those who don't have tribes to support them? / Would you continue to do so for year after year even after your family and relatives and followers are being threatened, tortured, killed, pushed into the scorching, desert, etc?"

    I don't know. I certainly don't stand up all alone against crimes against women and the poor now.

    Ivan Illich said somewhere, I think in his conversations with David Cayley, that he didn't care about the poor. This surprised his interlocutor, for Illich was not a callous man, and had in fact done much good for poor Puerto Ricans in New York, and Mexicans in Cuernavaca, and so on. Illich explained that if he cared, he would sell all his belongings, and chain himself to the doors of a corporation somewhere in protest; but since he would not do that, neither was he willing to mouth useless and misleading platitudes.

    But you're undermining your own argument again. I or any number of other people here may be ordinary people of modest courage, or even moral cowards; but we are not being held out as moral exemplars. And there have been a number of otherwise ordinary people--not prophets and such, that is--who have endured having their "followers... threatened, tortured, killed, pushed into the scorching... desert" (Gandhi comes to mind here), and without turning to the kinds of acts alleged of Muhammad. So if non-prophets can manage that, why not prophets?

    (Obviously that last point applies more widely than merely to Islam.)

    A further question: When you say that Muhammad stood alone against the pagans and against crimes against women and the poor year after year, with family and relatives and followers being threatened, tortured, killed, etc.--when you say that, are you arguing that such-and-such acts were not bad *because* he also did great good? That line of argument would come back to bite you, too, for it can be deployed very widely. ("Thomas Jefferson's ownership of slaves was morally exemplary *because* he wrote the Declaration of Independence, helped shepherd the United States through its early years, fought the Barbary pirates...")

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  49. A still further question: what do 1.5 millennia and Arabia have to do with this? I always wondered at this line of argument from apologists of various stripes. So so-and-so can found a world-historical religion/lead armies/fight demons/whatever, but he can't be better than the people around him, *because it was long ago and far away*? So-and-so can introduce new gods/defeat empires/beat Satan/whatever, but *moral reform*, *that's* a bridge too far? To which the obvious reply--as above with followers and deserts--is that if William Wilberforce, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Candy Lightner--pick your moral exemplar--can do it, why again couldn't so-and-so?

    Now of course, you could argue that things were very different then and there. But if 1.5 millennia and ten thousand miles are enough to make seemingly bad acts good, why again can't they make purportedly good examples bad?

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  50. Something had occurred to me yesterday, and then was forgotten. Remembering it today has driven me back to this combox tonight, in order to say this:

    If I were forced to choose among obviously untrue scriptures, I would almost certainly choose one like this, rather than one like so many of the others we have recently observed

    "I WILL declare the manly deeds of Indra, the first that he achieved, the Thunder-wielder.
    He slew the Dragon, then disclosed the waters, and cleft the channels of the mountain torrents.
    He slew the Dragon lying on the mountain: his heavenly bolt of thunder Tvaṣṭar fashioned.
    Like lowing kine in rapid flow descending the waters glided downward to the ocean.
    Impetuous as a bull, he chose the Soma and in three sacred beakers drank the juices.
    Maghavan grasped the thunder for his weapon, and smote to death this firstborn of the dragons.
    When, Indra, thou hadst slain the dragon's firstborn, and overcome the charms of the enchanters,
    Then, giving life to Sun and Dawn and Heaven, thou foundest not one foe to stand against thee.
    Indra with his own great and deadly thunder smote into pieces Vṛtra, worst of Vṛtras.
    As trunks of trees, what time the axe hath felled them, low on the earth so lies the prostrate Dragon.
    He, like a mad weak warrior, challenged Indra, the great impetuous many-slaying Hero.
    He, brooking not the clashing of the weapons, crushed—Indra's foe—the shattered forts in falling.
    Footless and handless still he challenged Indra, who smote him with his bolt between the shoulders.
    Emasculate yet claiming manly vigour, thus Vṛtra lay with scattered limbs dissevered.
    There as he lies like a bank-bursting river, the waters taking courage flow above him.
    The Dragon lies beneath the feet of torrents which Vṛtra with his greatness had encompassed.
    Then humbled was the strength of Vṛtra's mother: Indra hath cast his deadly bolt against her.
    The mother was above, the son was under and like a cow beside her calf lay Danu.
    Rolled in the midst of never-ceasing currents flowing without a rest for ever onward.
    The waters bear off Vṛtra's nameless body: the foe of Indra sank to during darkness.
    Guarded by Ahi stood the thralls of Dāsas, the waters stayed like kine held by the robber.
    But he, when he had smitten Vṛtra, opened the cave wherein the floods had been imprisoned.
    A horse's tail wast thou when he, O Indra, smote on thy bolt; thou, God without a second,
    Thou hast won back the kine, hast won the Soma; thou hast let loose to flow the Seven Rivers.
    Nothing availed him lightning, nothing thunder, hailstorm or mist which had spread around him:
    When Indra and the Dragon strove in battle, Maghavan gained the victory for ever.
    Whom sawest thou to avenge the Dragon, Indra, that fear possessed thy heart when thou hadst slain him;
    That, like a hawk affrighted through the regions, thou crossedst nine-and-ninety flowing rivers?
    Indra is King of all that moves and moves not, of creatures tame and horned, the Thunder-wielder.
    Over all living men he rules as Sovran, containing all as spokes within the felly."

    At least it has a certain nobility and undeniable style.

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  51. DNW,

    In comparing and contrasting the moral pronouncements and behavior of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, with those supposedly manifest by Mohammad, and as recorded either in the Koran or the hadiths, in what possible world is it incumbent upon the one doing the comparing to freight Jesus with Old Testament patriarchs and kings in order to properly take a comparable moral measure of his preaching and life relative to Mohammad?

    Maybe I missed something, but I was not comparing Jesus and Muhammad. The point is simply that these patriarchs and prophets are moral and spiritual authorities for Christians and, condemned or not, their sins, or questionable actions, are not held to remove this authority completely. David is still revered by Christians and Jews. Indeed, I think you could make a good argument he is revered in the New Testament.

    And, perhaps more importantly, the Bible itself seems to explicitly or implicitly give divine sanction to what are, or at least some today would consider, actions as questionable Muhammad's. You kept bringing up adultery and the punishment of stoning for it. Leviticus demands death for adultery, in clear terms.

    Yes, Jesus' actions are relatively unproblematic in the sense we are discussing, but the Christian has to make sense of the Old Testament as well. To say the Christiana treats the Old Testament as allegory is to greatly simplify the texture of different layers of meaning in the Bible, almost as much as to say it is all literally true.

    I don't deny that some of Muhammad's actions are questionable (though, of course, one can debate what is and isn't moral - I certainly don't think we should take contemporary Western mores as infallible guides). My point is simply it is double standards to ignore similar controversies for Christians and Jews.

    Because the Islamic traditions and hadiths record him as a man who suffered from delusions, uttered the Satanic Verses, had multiple wives more than allowable according to his own rule, "married" when in middle age a child with dolls, and had sex with her at 9 years old, slaughtered unbelievers, engaged in banditry and so on and so forth.

    Now, you might say that these hadith stories cannot be believed on some basis or another though you have not stipulated what that rule is. And Wiki - welcome to the world of polemical editing - makes reference to supposedly "canonical hadiths" without however mentioning them by name or collection or the underlying rationale. According to you though there is no official body in Islam competent to make such a pronouncement in any event.

    So, when it comes to evaluating the character of Mohammad; meaning his veracity, his trustworthiness, his truthfulness, his reliability, his motivations, his very sanity, there is no way of sorting the false from the true; or even the doctrinal from the heterodox.


    You do know that there are methodologies within the various divisions of Islam to address these issues? The Satanic Verses, for example, are considered a fabrication, and have been for millennia, because of their weak chain of transmission. You speak like an atheist who thinks he has scored a major point against Christians by noting they don't apply Jewish law consistently, perfectly ignorant of the debates over Mosaic Law amongst early Christians. Perhaps there is a youtube video somewhat that can explain it to you?

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  52. To which the obvious reply--as above with followers and deserts--is that if William Wilberforce, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Candy Lightner--pick your moral exemplar--can do it, why again couldn't so-and-so?

    Entirely incidentally, I think Cobbett would take exception to use of Wilberforce as a moral exemplar, and knowing Cobbett it would be with force and colour.

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  53. @Jeremy Taylor: "Entirely incidentally, I think Cobbett would take exception to use of Wilberforce as a moral exemplar, and knowing Cobbett it would be with force and colour."

    I quite like force and color. :)

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  54. Oh, and Kudos for the Illich reference.

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  55. I don't see the need to bring OT characters into this. As a Christian, I don't, for instance, "revere" David, nor do I view him as a moral or spiritual authority. He is simply an important biblical figure who, in his fallibility, does a lot of things right and a lot wrong. Same goes for Moses, Joshua, Jonah, Solomon, and so on. The only absolute authority is Christ, and if an OT character or passage appears to act contrary in places to Christ's message, then (if we are reading in the literal sense) it's rather easy to dismiss that character or passage as being in error, without the need of attempting to walk a tightrope in trying to harmonize the two. In addition, the OT doesn't "approve" of actions - it is purely descriptive in its literal sense. Moreover, historical-critical study has shown that most OT authors were not describing literal situations, but intended the texts to be read in an allegorical sense. This is where the spiritual meat of the OT is, and calls into question the historical reality of most OT figures and events.

    For a Christian, Christ ultimate figure. He is the key to reading the bible, and the OT in particular is meant to be allegorized in relation to the truth revealed in Him. For a Muslim, Muhammad is the ultimate authority - the perfect human being. It is appropriate and sufficient to compare and contrast each of the two with each other.

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  56. I think that is a somewhat simplistic approach to the Old Testament and its role for the Christian. The Old Testament certainly is certainly meant to be read at multiple levels - literal, moral, allegorical, and anagogic - to use Dante's famous schema. It has an overall allegorical significance, of course, in preparing for the coming of Christ. But I don't think, for example, you can simply say that the Mosaic Laws, in their details, are meant to be read allegorically, without any divine sanction for the prohibitions, injunctions, and punishments. I'd want to see a much deeper and more detailed argument before you can claim they are all allegorical.

    Prophets and Patriarchs in the Old Testament do seem to receive divine favour and this was accorded to some of them, at least, in the New Testament. The point is not that they are meant to be perfect. Muhammad is being harshly criticised. These figures should be treated similarly.

    Certainly, Muslims hold up Muhammad as a supreme model for our lives, and many consider him perfect. I'm not sure that has relevance to how we non-Muslims should regard him, though. The Koran is the ultimate authority for Muslims. Muhammad's life and example comes from there, it comes from the Hadith, and from other sources. These sources are as mixed in layers meaning and manner of transmission as the Bible. If there is moral, allegorical and anagogic in the Bible, there also in the Koran, not to mention the differing authority of the other sources for Muslims.


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  57. If it is true that, "As Dionysius says (Eccl. Hier. v), there is a threefold state of mankind; the first was under the Old Law; the second is that of the New Law; the third will take place not in this life, but in heaven" (ST I-II q 106 a 4 ad 1), and it true that, "...the first state is figurative and imperfect in comparison with the state of the Gospel..." (ibid), then it is unclear how and why the Old Testament (i.e., the Old Law) is or should be problematic in any significant way for the Christian who is aware of and seeks to abide by the New Law (i.e., the New Testament).

    If one is going to say that the Old Testament (Old Law) is problematic for subscribers to the New Testament (New Law), then one might just as well say, e.g., that the immaturity of his childhood of yesteryear is problematic for the mature adult of today.

    And if one is going to attempt to procure credibility and respectability for another on the grounds that that other is on par with the Old Law in some meaningful Old-Law-ish way, then that one is well-advised to expect, at the very least, that the brows of others will be furrowed in puzzlement when the attempt is made.

    - - - - -

    For more on the 'simplistic approach' pointed to and advocated by Anonymous, i.e., for that, how and why the New Law is contained in the Old Law, see ST I-II q 107 a 3.

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  58. Anonymous said it the Old Testament examples do not count as they are allegorical in a vague and general sense. I actually said he must do better than this, not that it was not possible to do better. I do think, in fact, possible to account for what is questionable in the Bible, though I think the Muslim too has explanations for that in the Koran and Islamic sources. I objected to those who attack Islam without recognising some thought has to be put into accounting for similar issues in the Bible, and also those who are willing to allow the complexity of Christian belief, tradition, and reading of the Scripture but allow only a literal and crude interpretation of Islam.

    Anonymous was, presumably, referring to the fact the Old Testament is meant, for the Christian, to allegorically pave the way for the coming of Christ. The whole point was this doesn't say anything precise about the nature of, for example, the Leviticus commandment mentioned above. The Old Testament is not Everyman or The Pilgrim's Progress (which are themselves not simple). I'm not even sure that the approach of Anonymous and St.Thomas' argument you quote are the same approach, except perhaps in a very broad way.

    Anyway, I don't think, on its own, what you quote proves the point you and Anonymous seem to be making. Aquinas is not concerned with modern scruples about executing adulterers in those passages. It doesn't seem to me that when he says the Mosaic Law is imperfect, he meant it was completely immoral, as would seem to be the case if we are, for example, to view Muhammad's punishment of an adulterer as such. In fact he explicitly talks about the new law being contained in the old:

    We must therefore say that, according to the first way, the New Law is not distinct from the Old Law: because they both have the same end, namely, man's subjection to God; and there is but one God of the New and of the Old Testament, according to Romans 3:30: "It is one God that justifieth circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." According to the second way, the New Law is distinct from the Old Law: because the Old Law is like a pedagogue of children, as the Apostle says (Galatians 3:24), whereas the New Law is the law of perfection, since it is the law of charity, of which the Apostle says (Colossians 3:14) that it is "the bond of perfection."

    I think it would hard to suggest Aquinas thought the Mosaic Law commanded things that were barbaric. You still have the issue of divine sanction for what is in Muhammad seen as a sign of moral bankruptcy and barbarism.


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  59. @DNW

    You start your comment with "Blogger Omer said..."

    Very strange, since I never blogged in my life.

    Anyhow, your write several charges against the Prophet Muhammad. I don't have time to respond to all of them but I will respond to a couple.

    Regarding the satanic verses allegation, it is not in the Qur'an, nor is it even in hadith that are graded as authentic.

    Tabari writes about it and says in his book,

    Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us." (Tarikh al-Tabari Vol.1 page 3)

    Regarding Aisha's age at marriage....

    The Muslims who accept Ibn Hisham's hadith (when he moved to sectarian Iraq) are unanimous in saying that it was after the menstrual period that the Prophet consummated the marriage.

    Centuries ago, people all over the world were in some extent in tune with aspects of natural law that are different to modern sensibilities. They did not think that the next stage after initiation of the reproductive menses was to get a subscription of teen magazine but instead to get married, especially when life expectancy was less than 40 year of age.

    However, I and other have already addressed how this age of marriage contradicts numerous other hadith. I and others have commented on the motives for this likely false hadith.

    For additional information you can read the work of Rosalyn Rushbrook, who was a devout Christian from the UK who earned a degree in Christian Theology at Hull University and wrote many books on Christianity. She later converted to Islam and wrote many books on Islam under the name Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood (Islam does not require changing one's name when converting or reverting but many choose to do so). She covers this allegation at her website. I did not link it because it seems that one is at risk for malware on her site that has her articles. But if you can reach her through the contacts of the publication companies, I assume she can send it to you.

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  60. Glenn,

    "it is unclear how and why the Old Testament (i.e., the Old Law) is or should be problematic in any significant way for the Christian who is aware of and seeks to abide by the New Law (i.e., the New Testament)."

    I recall one "conservative" Christian's response to that sort of argument. He listed all the verses in the NT which supported OT laws. His position was basically that if there was any support in the NT at all, then a law was carried over into the "new law." He managed to hold onto a lot of that old law.


    Anonymous,

    "Moreover, historical-critical study has shown that most OT authors were not describing literal situations, but intended the texts to be read in an allegorical sense."

    The allegorical sense of a story is open-ended. One person might create a meaning you would not expect and never agree with.


    DNW,

    There's no need to "go whole hog" and hang the crimes of Ahab and Jezebel around the neck of Jesus. There are plenty of other morally questionable deeds. Some of those acts were carried out by or condoned by Yahweh. We are told Yahweh is part of a Trinity which includes Jesus. So was Jesus there all along or not?


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  61. - that should have been the old law contained in the new, of course.

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  62. Jeremy Taylor said...

    DNW,

    "
    'In comparing and contrasting the moral pronouncements and behavior of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, with those supposedly manifest by Mohammad, and as recorded either in the Koran or the hadiths, in what possible world is it [necessary] to freight Jesus with Old Testament patriarchs and kings in order to properly take a comparable moral measure of his preaching and life relative to Mohammad?'

    Maybe I missed something, but I was not comparing Jesus and Muhammad.
    "

    Yes you missed something. I was comparing and contrasting the moral character of the Jesus of the Gospels with the character of Mohammad as found in traditional Muslim sources. This has spurred two odd reactions.

    1. Some people are frantically determined to hang the deeds of the patriarchs and kings of the Old Testament around the neck of Jesus, spotting as they seem to think, Mohammad some much needed character points, while handicapping Jesus with the questionable deeds of others. Other than an impulse to act as an apologist for Mohammad, I cannot think of any reason to do so.

    I was comparing the moral character of these two figures as recorded in the writings of their self-described followers.

    Historicity is another matter. At least orthodox Christians have a canon of scripture concerning the life, acts and sayings of Jesus. They are on record as having driven their stake in the ground for all to see.

    Muslims either do or don't have a canon, depending on who you are listening to at moment; and on what their present motivations may be for saying what they will say.

    Nor do they seem to agree on what in the hadiths if anything is true, and what is certainly false regarding this perfect exemplar of Allah's will.

    Nonetheless they all seem to make a big deal of the value of these texts, except that is, when they say they are are false. But who knows for sure which is which. Perhaps you are yourself in a position to say.

    Maybe you can boil it down for them and eliminate all the beheading events, the rapes and pillaging, the child sex; and make Mohammad look quite the paragon. And won't that be nice then.

    2. The second point is related to the first. Some people cannot seem to stay focused on the mooted issue; but feel a desperate urge to go off on tangents.

    In the last analysis, there is only one important issue here regarding Islam: Is it contended that the Mohammad of the Muslim sources received a Divine revelation from a supernatural being named Gabriel; and if so contended, how do we know if that contention is true? Some Muslims seem to think that the moral character of Mohammad himself as perfect exemplar serves as evidence for this. So much the worse for that notion among those who can read.

    "You do know that there are methodologies within the various divisions of Islam to address these issues? The Satanic Verses, for example, are considered a fabrication, and have been for millennia, because of their weak chain of transmission. "

    They are also reportedly very early, and just as probable from a historiographical view to have been unedited reports of the kind which are later expurgated from the record for polemical calculations.

    "You speak like an atheist who thinks he has scored a major point against Christians by noting they don't apply Jewish law consistently, perfectly ignorant of the debates over Mosaic Law amongst early Christians. "

    I speak as a man who is sticking to the topic in order to resolve one narrow and very critical question; in the face of a number of people who are engaging in frantic hand waving and attempted deflections.

    "Perhaps there is a youtube video somewhat that can explain it to you?"

    Perhaps there is. Though full of assertions, you have demonstrated no real or persuasive scholarship in this matter. No doubt I could do just as well with YouTube as with you.

    Fortunately I also have a personal library and the larger Internet to boot.

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  63. Don Jindra said...

    DNW,

    There's no need to "go whole hog" and hang the crimes of Ahab and Jezebel around the neck of Jesus. There are plenty of other morally questionable deeds. Some of those acts were carried out by or condoned by Yahweh. We are told Yahweh is part of a Trinity which includes Jesus. So was Jesus there all along or not? "


    Boy there is a lot there to cover Don.

    What's the formula for the Trinity you are using, again?

    And please explain what you mean by morally questionable deeds. You know that you and I agree on little or nothing when it comes to the foundations or content of morality. So I would at least like to have you on record as explaining what you mean and what you figure is entailed by the terminology you are using.

    And finally, though you may cover it in passing by responding above, when you say morally questionable deeds, do you mean deeds that you question? Do you mean deeds you know somehow to be "immoral"? And if so, how do you know they are immoral?

    Thanks so much ...

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  64. Omer said...

    @DNW

    You start your comment with "Blogger Omer said..."

    Very strange, since I never blogged in my life."


    Not so strange as you think, happily. You will note that there is a "B" icon in an orange box just to the left of your name where you leave comments. If the right click copy highlighting captures the icon as well as your name, it will reproduce the icon in text as "Blogger".

    So captured, it apparently reflects and refers to this venue, not to one of your personal attributes.

    However after having just written this and checked it against my screen name, and noticing that there is no similar icon, I purposely clicked on your name, and this was the result:


    Omer

    My Photo

    On Blogger since July 2015

    Profile views - 73
    About me


    It will leave it to explain as you please or not; since I was making no claim as to any blogging activities on your part in any event.

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  65. Omer saith:

    "However, I and other have already addressed how this age of marriage contradicts numerous other hadith. I and others have commented on the motives for this likely false hadith."

    So that hadith is a "likely false" hadith.

    What exactly makes you think it "likely" false? And what kind of rule do you use in order to sort out those malicious hadith lies told about Mohammad and preserved for the later consumption of unwary or naive believers, from the supposedly true hadiths which highlight Mohammad's exemplary character, and thereby testify to the veracity of his story of having received the Koran from the Archangel Gabriel?

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  66. @DNW

    "Not so strange as you think, happily. You will note that there is a "B" icon in an orange box just to the left of your name where you leave comments...."

    Oh, ok. I just use my email. But if it registers me as a blogger, so be it.

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  67. @DNW

    "What exactly makes you think it "likely" false?"

    I and Jeremy gave several instances how it contradicts not one, two, three, but several other hadith that are accepted. Also, the key narrator is listed as senile when he transferred to Iraq which was a sectarian hotbed. It is in Iraq, where Ali's capital was. Aisha was very political...since she was the wife of the Prophet, she was kept as one of the leaders of the army that fought and was defeated by Ali.

    Ali is very dear to Sunnis but especially so to Sunnis. Sunnis recognize that Aisha was in the wrong but historically Sunni leaders tried to life Aisha's image because Ali's wisdom, knowledge, piety, courage was too great to be denied by Sunnis. There was no better way to life up Aisha's image than to increase her time with the last Prophet of God and so on.

    Also, almost all the Prophet's wife were not virgins, most except a couple were 36 years of age or older which is considered quite old for those days in Arabia when life expectancy was less than 40 years of age. Many wanted to highlight Aisha's much younger age in an effort to make her special.

    Interestingly, the key narrator Hisham, never mentioned her age before for 70 years but then when he went to Iraq and had to deal with Shia supporters, he starts saying she is so young which is frowned upon in today's mores but was a virtue in the past, not just in Arabia, but all over the planet.

    Thus, there are various reasons why the hadith is just false.

    But, even if hypothetically the age was young, it is neither here nor there.

    Again, it was not considered the time to subscribe to teen magazine after the initiation of the reproductive cycle but instead to marry, have children, be blessed unlike so many who die before their marriage or before they have children.

    Hypothetically, if Aisha did marry at a young age, her family, her supporters, and above all, she herself would have worn that event as a great honor....that just was the way people thought back then for various reasons.

    It is a non-issue just like the issue trying to make it out that Prophet Muhammad was an aggressor.

    He was not. God allowed and demanded that he and his followers defend themselves from the Amalekites of his time. But instead of killing all the Amalekite men, women, children, and animals, the Prophet came into Makkah and forgave those who cruelly persecuted, killed tortured, etc. him and his followers for over 20 years.

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  68. DNW,

    You may only be interested in comparing Muhammad and Jesus, but not all of us are only interested in this question. Take it or leave it. This comparison does not settle issues like the divine sanction for acts as questionable as Muhammad.

    My assertions have only been pointing out what should be obvious - like that Muslims have thought about the transmission and validity of accounts of Muhammed's life. They even have worked out frameworks for these things. I make no pretensions for scholarship, but I am not making sweeping, harsh criticisms. I have only pointed out rather obvious aspects of Islamic history and tradition.

    The Satan Verses are no earlier than many Gnostic accounts of Christ's life. According to the traditional Islamic means of determining authoritative accounts of Muhammad's teaching they are considered to have a weak tradition of transmission.

    By morally questionable I meant in a broad sense, to include what I find questionable and what many today do, whether I agree or not.


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  69. By the way, I wasn't suggesting the sources suggest Aisha wasn't nine at the time of consummation. Important early sources do suggest that. My only point was reliable early sources are not unanimous in this, even within themselves, and that not all of them are primarily interested in historical accuracy in details like this. My own view is that it is hard to sat what age Aisha was.

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  70. The authentic (or not) wit and wisdom, of Mohammad, Allah's perfect example, as found in the authoritative (or not) hadiths ...

    The model Gastronome. Narrated Ishaq bin 'Abdullah bin Abu Talha: I heard Anas bin Malik saying, "A tailor invited Allah's Apostle to a meal which he had prepared. " Anas bin Malik said, "I accompanied Allah's Apostle to that meal. He served the Prophet with bread and soup made with gourd and dried meat. I saw the Prophet taking the pieces of gourd from the dish." Anas added, "Since that day I have continued to like gourd."

    Be a good citizen and obey the traffic laws. Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Beware! Avoid sitting on he roads (ways)." The people said, "There is no way out of it as these are our sitting places where we have talks." The Prophet said, "If you must sit there, then observe the rights of the way." .

    Kill the devil dogs! It is your duty to kill the jet- black (dog) having two spots (on the eyes) for it is a devil.

    Salamanders you can allow to live Volume 3, Book 29, Number 57: Narrated 'Aisha the wife of the Prophet: Allah's Apostle called the salamander a bad animal, but I did not hear him ordering it to be killed."

    Especially virtuous deaths. Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "... the Prophet said, "Five are martyrs: One who dies of plague, one who dies of an abdominal disease, one who dies of drowning, one who is buried alive (and) dies and one who is killed in Allah's cause."

    I Mohammad, predict that any day now ... Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and nobody will accept charitable gifts.

    The perfect man illustrates how to get yourself a wife. Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet came to Khaibar and when Allah made him victorious and he conquered the town by breaking the enemy's defense, the beauty of Safiya bint Huyai bin Akhtab was mentioned to him and her husband had been killed while she was a bride. Allah's Apostle selected her for himself and he set out in her company till he reached Sadd-ar-Rawha' where her menses were over and he married her. Then Hais (a kind of meal) was prepared and served on a small leather sheet (used for serving meals). Allah's Apostle then said to me, "Inform those who are around you (about the wedding banquet)." So that was the marriage banquet given by Allah's Apostle for (his marriage with) Safiya. After that we proceeded to Medina and I saw that Allah's Apostle was covering her with a cloak while she was behind him. Then he would sit beside his camel and let Safiya put her feet on his knees to ride .."


    If they don't listen to you, shake the dust of the town from your sandals. And only then go back and kill them. Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) offered the Fajr prayer when it was still dark, then he rode and said, 'Allah Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. When we approach near to a nation, the most unfortunate is the mourning of those who have been warned." The people came out into the streets saying, "Muhammad and his army." Allah's Apostle vanquished them by force and their warriors were killed; the children and women were taken as captives. Safiya was taken by Dihya Al-Kalbi and later she belonged to Allah's Apostle go who married her and her Mahr was her manumission.

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  71. It's not all about civics and lifestyle advice however. The hadiths reveal and illustrate important points of Islamic law too. Or they don't if they are not authentic.

    Kind of hard to tell.

    Equality before the law. Narrated Ash-Sha'bi: Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked Ali, 'Have you got any book (which has been revealed to the Prophet apart from the Qur'an)?' 'Ali replied, 'No, except Allah's Book or the power of understanding which has been bestowed (by Allah) upon a Muslim or what is (written) in this sheet of paper (with me).' Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked, 'What is (written) in this sheet of paper?' Ali replied, it deals with The Diyya (compensation (blood money) paid by the killer to the relatives of the victim), the ransom for the releasing of the captives from the hands of the enemies, and the law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever).

    There shall be no compulsion in religion. Narrated 'Abdullah bin Masud: The Prophet recited Suratan-Najm (103) at Mecca and prostrated while reciting it and those who were with him did the same except an old man who took a handful of small stones or earth and lifted it to his forehead and said, "This is sufficient for me." Later on, I saw him killed as a non-believer.

    Sanctuary! Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle entered Mecca in the year of its Conquest wearing an Arabian helmet on his head and when the Prophet took it off, a person came and said, "Ibn Khatal is holding the covering of the Ka'ba (taking refuge in the Ka'ba)." The Prophet said, "Kill him."

    Authentic or not? Real or not? Does anyone know? ISIS claims to. Who will gainsay them?

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  72. It seems that some of their opponents have taken something from the Gnus at least.....

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  73. @DNW,

    Thanks for sharing...here are some more since you are so interested in them

    Muslim is just a name of one of the collections like Bukhari, Tirmidhi, etc...

    God has more compassion for His servants than a woman has for her child. (Muslim)
    God does not look at your body and face; rather, He looks at your heart. (Muslim)
    Worship the Most Merciful and spread peace. (Ibn Majah)
    I have not been sent to curse. I have been sent to show compassion. (Muslim)
    Allah is kind, and He loves kindness. Kindness found in anything only adds to its beauty. (Muslim)
    Do not be without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well, you will treat them well and if they do wrong, you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do wrong. (Tirmidhi)
    If a man says, “The people are destroyed,” then he is the most destroyed among them. (Muslim)
    He who goes out in search of knowledge is on the path of Allah until he returns. (Tirmidhi)
    Shall I tell you who the best among you are? The best of you are those who the very sight of whom brings Allah to mind. (Tirmidhi)
    The most honorable of you is the one who is the most pious of you. (Bukhari and Muslim)
    Feed (the poor), and greet with peace whoever you know and whoever you don’t know. (Nasa’i)
    On being asked which form of Islam is better, the Prophet replied, “to feed the people and extend greetings of peace to them, be they of one’s acquaintance or not. (Bukhari and Muslim)
    Gentleness adorns everything, and its absence makes everything defective. (Muslim)
    Simple living is a sure sign of true faith. (Abu Dawud)
    Wealth does not consist in abundant provisions and plenty of resources. A contented person, enjoying peace of mind, is a truly rich person. (Bukhari)
    You should restrain yourselves from committing excesses in religion. For it was due to their having gone to extremes in religion that the previous communities were destroyed.
    God is the Most Compassionate. He is most merciful towards those who show kindness. Be kind to your fellow human beings, and your Lord will shower mercy on you. (Abu Dawud)

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  74. Authentic or not? Real or not? Does anyone know? ISIS claims to. Who will gainsay them?

    You are aware, of course, that ISIS is a Wahhabi off-shoot with quite a dissonant attitude to traditional Sunni schools of jurisprudence and thought. I would suggest then that Abū Ḥanīfa, Malik ibn Anas, Al-Shafi‘i, Dawud al-Zahiri, and (probably) Ahmad ibn Hanbal would gainsay them for a start.

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  75. DJ,

    >> "it is unclear how and why the Old Testament (i.e., the Old Law) is or should be problematic in any significant way for the Christian who is aware of and seeks to abide by the New Law (i.e., the New Testament)."

    > I recall one "conservative" Christian's response to that sort of argument. He listed all the verses in the NT which supported OT laws. His position was basically that if there was any support in the NT at all, then a law was carried over into the "new law." He managed to hold onto a lot of that old law.

    Well, you know... it is true that aside from that of the Old Law which is not to be held onto, there indeed is that of the Old Law which is to be held onto.

    But that there is that of the Old Law which is to be held onto in no way suffices as an objection to what I said above.

    And nothing I said above undermines in any way what that "conservative" Christian has had to say -- if that "conservative" Christian is who I think it is, and he was speaking on the subject of, say, natural law.

    For example, that that shalt not commit adultery is a moral precept of the Old Law, while that they who commit adultery shall be put to death is a judicial precept of that same law.

    But it is the binding nature of the moral precepts of the Old Law which carries forward, and not the binding nature of the judicial precepts of that law.

    This is why -- if we suppose that the "conservative" Christian to which you refer should happen to be Dr. Feser -- Dr. Feser's appeal to the Old Law in his treatment of, say, natural law in no way suffices as an objection to what I said above.

    And why what I said above in no way undermines what he has to say about natural law.

    But I'll give you this: it was a nice try.

    ;)

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  76. DNW,

    "You know that you and I agree on little or nothing when it comes to the foundations or content of morality."

    I suspect we agree on content more than you think.

    I could go on and on with this subject. But I'll stick to three examples. I think it was morally wrong for Moses to kill 3000 idol worshipers at the foot of Mt. Sinai. Who was advising him to do that? I think it was morally wrong for the first born of Egypt to be killed. I think it was morally wrong to destroy all "sinful" life except what Noah could save.

    Yes, this is my judgment. But it's also a modern judgment. I think US law is morally superior to biblical law.

    Now we could quibble over the implication of a Trinity. I think Jesus' will and his father's will are not considered at odds by most Christians. I also think most Christians see Jesus as an eternal part of that Trinity. So if Yahweh did something, Jesus was surely a partner of some sort. It's primarily because of this partnership that I don't think most Christians see the OT as inapplicable, historical trivia. Therefore it's proper to cite OT examples, and any example is fair game.

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  77. Glenn,

    "if that 'conservative' Christian is who I think it is, and he was speaking on the subject of, say, natural law."

    Actually, no. This was in an exchange I was having with someone on another site. It did not cover natural law. It was not about our gracious host.


    "But that there is that of the Old Law which is to be held onto in no way suffices as an objection to what I said above."

    True, but by what standard does one distinguish the two? At one extreme "new law" is little more than faith in Jesus with a sincere attempt to personally adhere to the teachings from the Sermon on the Mount. The other extreme binds all of mankind to every Mosaic law except ceremonial law. There's a significant gulf between the two. Differences like that are the same issue that pops up in the gulf between moderate and extreme forms of Islam. You say it's unclear why the OT "should be problematic in any significant way for the Christian who is aware of and seeks to abide by the New Law," but moderate Muslims can and do say similar things about certain passages in the Quran.

    You say the judicial precepts of the old law are not binding. But Christians like Greg Bahnsen disagree. As an outsider how am I supposed to judge? Who is the "real" Christian?

    When people start blowing up infidels it might be prudent to judge a religion by the deeds of a few. OTOH, most major religions go through extremist stages. As an outsider, how am I to know that Greg Bahnsen / Gary North extremism isn't going to surface as "real" Christianity in 20 years? I know Christianity is much preferable to Islam today. But is this a permanent, inevitable situation? I'm not so sure.

    Anyway, it's unclear to me how clarity about any religion's moral teachings can be achieved in a constantly evolving collection of environments. It's like a canon trying to hit a scattering flock of pigeons.


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  78. "@DNW,

    Thanks for sharing...here are some more since you are so interested in them
    "

    You are welcome. I tried to select from Bukhari since that is often referred to as the most reliable source. Unless it is not, of course.

    " Muslim is just a name of one of the collections like Bukhari, Tirmidhi, etc..."

    So I recall. Omer's hadith sayings follow ...

    God has more compassion for His servants than a woman has for her child. God does not look at your body and face; rather, He looks at your heart. Worship the Most Merciful and spread peace. I have not been sent to curse. I have been sent to show compassion. Allah is kind, and He loves kindness. Kindness found in anything only adds to its beauty. Do not be without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well, you will treat them well and if they do wrong, you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do wrong. If a man says, “The people are destroyed,” then he is the most destroyed among them. He who goes out in search of knowledge is on the path of Allah until he returns. Shall I tell you who the best among you are? The best of you are those who the very sight of whom brings Allah to mind. The most honorable of you is the one who is the most pious of you. Feed (the poor), and greet with peace whoever you know and whoever you don’t know. On being asked which form of Islam is better, the Prophet replied, “to feed the people and extend greetings of peace to them, be they of one’s acquaintance or not. Gentleness adorns everything, and its absence makes everything defective. Simple living is a sure sign of true faith. Wealth does not consist in abundant provisions and plenty of resources. A contented person, enjoying peace of mind, is a truly rich person. You should restrain yourselves from committing excesses in religion. For it was due to their having gone to extremes in religion that the previous communities were destroyed.
    God is the Most Compassionate. He is most merciful towards those who show kindness. Be kind to your fellow human beings, and your Lord will shower mercy on you.


    Those are all very nice hadith sentiments you provided. It would be just as nice if there were any real way to know who actually expressed them and when and why. I guess you could always select the passages you like best and which reflect best on the Prophet in contemporary terms, and say that "these are real"; and then say about those which seem embarrassing or likely to have people looking askance at your religion as if it is based on the ravings of a nearly crazy man, and saying "these are fabricated" for one reason or another.

    Here are some other nice sayings. Do they seem the product of Divine revelation to you?

    The quality of mercy is not strain'd, It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
    Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest: It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.

    Place anger aside.

    Listening to wise scriptures, austerity, sacrifice, respectful faith, social welfare, forgiveness, purity of intent, compassion, truth and self-control—are the ten wealth of character

    One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule ... Other behavior is due to selfish desires.

    Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss.

    One who, while himself seeking happiness, oppresses with violence other beings who also desire happiness, will not attain happiness hereafter.

    Understand that it is the hungry man who has bread on his mind. [regarding those who attribute ill intent to others]

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  79. So now we leave the wonderful world of the hadiths, which might be authentic or might not be authentic, depending ... on who we ask, and their reasons for concluding one way or another.

    Instead, let us quote what is asserted to be unquestionably authentic Islamic scripture. These are understood to be the very words of Allah, as transmitted through the archangel Gabriel, placed in the ear of Mohammad, dictated to scribes, recorded, and eventually collected.

    Some selections of the Divine - literally, apparently - word.


    "Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph."

    "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

    "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

    "And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



    No one rational wishes to gratuitously wound the feelings of human beings - even ugly raving neck-bearded ones I suppose - who happen to have grown up in the Religion of Submission and have found within it some personally appealing expressions of human fellow feeling, however couched, and promises of cosmic justice and mercy.

    The question the same rational man must in truth ask though, is what possible evidence internally or externally is there for the originary claim which purports to establish the historicity of the revelation and the moral validity of the dogmas supposed as deriving from it.

    Those who wish to sidestep this matter and instead argue from some comparative phenomenal effect of a belief system on a certain population, to the objective truth of the system's predicates, are certainly welcome to try and establish such an argument. However, Seven League Boots would seem to be the order of the day for those attempting it.

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  80. DJ,

    Actually, no. This was in an exchange I was having with someone on another site. It did not cover natural law. It was not about our gracious host.

    Okay, I acknowledge the mistakes.

    You say the judicial precepts of the old law are not binding. But Christians like Greg Bahnsen disagree. As an outsider how am I supposed to judge? Who is the "real" Christian?

    1. I'm not familiar with Bahnsen, and don't know the rationale for his disagreement, so am not in a position to comment on it. What I can say is that St. Thomas explains here why it is held that, "The judicial precepts did not bind for ever, but were annulled by the coming of Christ[.]"

    2. If you're an outsider, why should it make a difference to you what St. Thomas says or whether Bahnsen (rightly, wrongly or out of some misunderstand) disagrees? Let's assume there is some reason why it does or might make a difference to you. In this case, if the evidence presently at your disposal cannot be sifted, weighed and sorted out, then, clearly, a definitive or satisfactory answer to the question is to be held in abeyance until further research, in conjunction with the exercise of sound reasoning and prudence, results in a tipping of the balance.

    3. Who is the "real" Christian? Loaded question. One simple answer is s/he is a 'real' Christian who lives as a Christian should. It is a simple answer, yet easily invites other questions, and can quickly lead to complications. (For example, if s/he is a 'real' Christian who lives as a Christian should, then mightn't it be the case that there are people who are Christian in name but not in fact, and mightn't it be the case that there are people who are not Christian in name yet are Christian in fact? (I personally would answer 'yes' to both questions. Others would answer 'no' to be both questions. And still others might say, "Well, it depends."))

    Anyway, it's unclear to me how clarity about any religion's moral teachings can be achieved in a constantly evolving collection of environments.

    An environment is a kind of surrounding, and every surrounding surrounds something. In the context of your observation, it is, ultimately, the individual which is surrounded. So, morality has to take root inside, and then work its way outward. In one way, this response skirts around what you were getting at; on the other hand, where there is a 'constantly evolving collection of environments', it's all the more important for the individual to be morally strong. However much the morality of a religion might in some way adapt or adjust to changing environments, there must be a healthy, substantial core predicated, ultimately, on a right relation between man and God.

    I’ll finish by saying there are many others better able to provide more meaningful responses to your questions / concerns. Perhaps one or more of them will chime in.

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  81. Do they seem the product of Divine revelation to you?

    Are you confusing the Koran and the Hadith again?

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  82. @DNW,

    "Here are some other nice sayings. Do they seem the product of Divine revelation to you?"

    Yes, I find them also to be beautiful nice sayings. Just because sayings are nice and beautiful it does not make them a divine revelation but of course God would want us to accept and do whatever nice sayings say.

    "No one rational wishes to gratuitously wound the feelings of human beings - even ugly raving neck-bearded ones I suppose "

    Aaaah...You are too kind.

    When you quote verses, if the verses in the passage are relevant, then quote the entire passage for context.

    Text without context is only a pretext to prooftext.

    Regarding the jizya, it mentions People of the Book...although People of the Book refers to people of earlier scriptures, in that context it was specifically or at least particularly referring to certain Jewish tribes who had plotted with Arab pagans to annihilate the Muslims such as the Jewish tribe that was immediately adjacent to the Muslim women and children and the Muslim men were away at the Battle of the Trench when the pagans tried to annihilate them at Madina and the other Jewish tribes further north who were paying pagans to kill all the Muslims and keep Arabia pagan.

    Although scholars say the verse on the jizya is not restricted to those Jewish tribes because the verse does not explicitly restrict it to those particular people of the book, many scholars say it only refers to minority populations who are in the area that are to be protected but since they (the minority populations) do not contribute men to protect the territory as a whole, nor do they pay the charity tax, they are required to pay something very small to recognize their protection.

    And many other scholars say that such was just the norm throughout the world at that time...and that since we are in the era of nation-states and international treaties, and UN, etc, it is not meant to apply in the modern world to nations outside or to any minority populations or residents inside (a given state).

    Yes, you are on the correct track to examine and test the Qur'an. The truth or falsehood of Islam is predicated on the Qur'an.

    You mention dogmas...there are no dogmas in the Qur'an unless you think belief in God is a dogma or being good to all people is a dogma.

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  83. DJ,

    I've come across a Greg Bahnsen who died in 1995, and who wrote an article entitled What is "Theonomy"? Here's a brief excerpt:

    The law revealed by Moses and subsequent Old Testament authors was given within a covenantal administration of God's grace which included not only moral instruction, but gloriously and mercifully "promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come"[.] God's revelation itself teaches us that New Covenant believers, who have the law powerfully written on their hearts (Jer. 31:31ff.; Heb. 8:8-12), no longer follow the foreshadows and administrative details of the old covenant. They are obsolete (Heb. 8:13), having been imposed only until the time when the Messiah would come (Heb. 9:10; Col. 2:17). Thus, for example, on the basis of God's own instruction, we no longer resort to animal sacrifices at the temple and a Levitical priest (Heb. 7-10); the cultic dietary laws have been set aside, for God has cleansed the unclean meats (representing the Gentiles) from which Israel was to be separate or holy (Acts 10).

    Theonomy teaches, then, that in regard to the Old Testament law, the New Covenant surpasses the Old Covenant in glory, power, and finality. The New Covenant also supersedes the Old Covenant shadows, thereby changing the application of sacrificial, purity, and "separation" principles, redefining the people of God (e.g., Matt. 21:43), and also altering the significance of the promised land (e.g., Rom. 4:13; 1 Peter 1:4).

    What is crucial to notice here is that theonomic ethics comes to these conclusions on the basis of Biblical instruction. Men have no right to alter or spurn Old Testament laws on their own say-so, social traditions, or preconceived ideas about what is morally appropriate or inappropriate in the Mosaic law. They have no right to include more in the discontinuity between old and new covenants than can be warranted from divine revelation.

    Theonomy thus teaches that we should presume that Old Testament laws continue to be morally binding in the New Testament unless they are rescinded or modified by further revelation. Theonomy's methodology stands squarely against that of dispensational theology which maintains that all of the Old Testament commandments should be deemed -- in advance of exegesis -- to be abrogated, unless they are repeated in the New Testament.


    I see nothing in this which suggests that he might have disagreed that, "The judicial precepts did not bind for ever, but were annulled by the coming of Christ[.]"

    Of course, this is but a small snippet from a single, short article -- and one written by a Greg Bahnsen who might not even be the Greg Bahnsen you were referring to.

    If it is the same Greg Bahnsen, then (since the above is but a small snippet from a single, short article) there may be something else elsewhere which makes clear that he did or would have disagreed. I don't know; and I won't be searching further (I just did a quick "look-see"), so it's not likely I'll be finding out one way or the other anytime soon.

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  84. Jeremy Taylor said...

    " 'Do they seem the product of Divine revelation to you?'

    Are you confusing the Koran and the Hadith again?
    May 16, 2016 at 3:05 PM
    "


    You are the one apparently confused, Jeremy.

    The "nice" passages Omer quoted, and which I extensively re-quoted were ostensibly hadiths.


    The "nice" passages I quoted on my own in parallel, and asked regarding which, if the seemed "divine", were none of them from the Koran or the hadiths. One was Shakespeare, as you ought to have immediately recognized.

    The slaying, and killing, and the taxing the people of the book passages I quoted, e.g.,

    "Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph."

    "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

    "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

    "And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"


    ... were from the Koran.

    If you are going to put your two cents in, try to make sure you have enough change first.

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  85. Omer said...

    " @DNW,

    'Here are some other nice sayings. Do they seem the product of Divine revelation to you?'

    Yes, I find them also to be beautiful nice sayings. Just because sayings are nice and beautiful it does not make them a divine revelation ...
    "

    Quite right. Just because they are nice or sound nice does not give evidence of a Divine source. Which was the obvious point of my offering them to you for your comment. Obvious to you and me, if not Jeremy, anyway.

    " ... but of course God would want us to accept and do whatever nice sayings say.

    Well, maybe not quite everything. "Make that a Kodak moment", for instance.

    " 'No one rational wishes to gratuitously wound the feelings of human beings - even ugly raving neck-bearded ones I suppose'

    Aaaah...You are too kind.
    "

    So I have been told many times before. But coming from you Omer, it seems to have a unique and very special meaning all its own.

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  86. I'm well aware where your quotes were from, or most of them. My point was that you don't seem toonow enough to differentiate between different Islamic sources, obviously. This is what happens when you derive all your information from YouTube and cride hit sites, as a Gnu might about Christianity, which os presumably why you seem to know little about the distinction between the Koran and Hadith or the discussions over transmission of Hadith and Islamic teaching and law. This seems exactly parallel, to me, to Gnus don't know of the discussions about Mosaic Law in early Christianity or the formation of the canon amd tradition in Christianity.

    And I would stick in my pence.

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  87. - that should be to know.

    I could also mention the fact you clearly didn't know about the status of ISIS relative to other schools of Sunni Islam, despite making comments about ISIS.

    Omer, you are a saint for the patience you show, but there is little point in arguing with Gnus, whether Theist or Atheist.

    Let us have a more sensible discussion. How do you as a Muslim understand the passages about Muhammed's questionable actions? What are the traditional explanations?

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  88. Let's start with the enslavement of the women and children of the Banu Qurayza. How would you explain this?

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  89. Our resident Poet Laureatriste said: Hey, Dr. Feser--I got a funny poem stuck in the filter on that other post. Please set it free.

    If you love a poem, set it free; if it comes back to you, Blogspot is probably on the fritz again. But happily it made it through eventually!

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  90. Not only did the 600 hundred charges eventually go through, there wasn't any tax, and not a single processing fee. Impressive!

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  91. @Mr. Green: "If you love a poem, set it free; if it comes back to you, Blogspot is probably on the fritz again. But happily it made it through eventually!"

    Tennyson is rolling in his grave.

    But then, Sullivan started haunting under my bed, saying he was tired of you stealing his best ideas.

    @Glenn: "Not only did the 600 hundred charges eventually go through, there wasn't any tax, and not a single processing fee. Impressive!"

    Heh. :)

    @Jeremy Taylor: "Let us have a more sensible discussion. How do you as a Muslim understand the passages about Muhammed's questionable actions? What are the traditional explanations? [...] Let's start with the enslavement of the women and children of the Banu Qurayza. How would you explain this?"

    Seconded. For my money, the general principles would be better than the concrete cases--but maybe you're going in that direction. If you were, you'd answer DNW's criticism about the Hadith, and also help to develop Omer's and HAA's comments into fuller responses to Dr. Feser's falsificationist challenge.

    "Oh, and Kudos for the Illich reference."

    Thanks. Of all the polyglot Austrian Jewish crystallographers invited into the Vatican diplomatic corps, then later almost excommunicated, he was by far my favorite.

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  92. If you were, you'd answer DNW's criticism about the Hadith,

    What criticisms? All DNW did was post a string of random quotations from the Hadith and other sources that he felt were immoral or just embarrassing for Muslims, whilst showing not the slightest knowledge of their interpretation or the place of the Hadith within the Islamic tradition.

    This is literally a Gnu debating tactic. I'm sure we've all seen them post random Bible passages whilst showing no real knowledge of the ways in which these have been interpreted or the place of the scripture within Christianity. I don't see the point in making the sweeping, harsh criticisms that DNW, especially in such a smug fashion, if all ones knowledge comes from caricatures taken from crude internet hit sites.

    I don't take the Muslim side. I'm interested in the exact manner of explaining, for example, the enslavement of the women and children of the Banu Qurayza. And I was critical of Chad and of other left-liberals in some of their defence of Islam, which shows no more knowledge of it than shown by DNW. I think it is shame, though, that some Christians who decry the idiocy of the Gnus are willing to resort to Gnu tactics against Muslims. Muslims are sometimes also guilty of this kind of nonsense too. I have seen Muslims gloat about the alleged worship of three gods by Christians, where it is clear these Muslims have not the slightest knowledge of Christian doctrine and writings on the Trinity over the millennia.

    As for the falsificationist challenge, when it comes to terrorism at least, the peculiar form of Jihadi terrorism that is the primary concern when we talk of Islamic terrorism, comes entirely from off-shoot of Wahhabism (it doesn't even come from mainstream Wahhabism). This suggests at least a very complex relationship between this terrorism and mainstream Islam, given Wahhabism's historical place in the history of Sunni Islam.

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  93. Jeremy Taylor said...

    I'm well aware where your quotes were from, or most of them.

    Your very and probably defensively deliberate poor combox etiquette makes it unclear what you are with any force saying about what; much less what specifically it is you purport to recognize or can be trusted to know yourself. Quoting helps in this regard, if you can rouse yourself to it.

    "My point was that you don't seem toonow enough to differentiate between different Islamic sources, obviously."

    I recognize the Koran is not the "Hadith", and that the hadiths are collections of purported sayings of and about Mohammad and his life. That, they have been accorded various levels of reliability or truthfulness not only as collection titles, but as individual entries within them; by different Muslims of different schools or political allegiances, of different times: since the earliest days of the caliphates. As it's more convenient than scanning, I'll quote Wiki here on divergence:

    "Sunni ... confirm that Abu Bakr was chosen by the community and that this was the proper procedure. Sunnis further argue that a caliph should ideally be chosen by election or community consensus.

    Shi'a Muslims believe that Ali, the son-in-law and cousin of Muhammad, was chosen by Muhammad as his spiritual and temporal successor as the Mawla (the Imam and the Caliph) of all Muslims at a place called al-Gadhir Khumm. Here Mohammad called upon the around 100,000 gathered returning pilgrims to give their Bay'ah (oath of allegiance) to Ali in his very presence and thenceforth to proclaim the good news of Ali's succession to his (Muhammad's) leadership to all Muslims they should come across."

    " This is what happens when you derive all your information from YouTube and cride hit sites, as a Gnu might about Christianity, which os presumably why you seem to know little about the distinction between the Koran and Hadith ... "

    Well, now that is patently false, and seems based on a confusion of your own. As for the distinction between those two jumbles of religious falsehoods and historical trivia there is very little critical to know apart from this: That the Koran is purported to be the very word of Allah, as transmitted to Gabriel and or Mohammad, and spoken by Mohammad to his followers, and then memorized or recorded by scribes either ad hoc, or later, and then collected by someone. Just who and when is disputed. Like I said divine.

    The venerable and explanatory - or not, depending - hadiths in their varied collections, are what seems to have been your trigger; but as Omer admits, there is no central body in Islam to declare dogma or stipulate the general canon.

    Your referring to "Christianity" in general terms and trying even to work in the Gnostic texts for polemical leverage, while focusing on Sunni Islam yourself is a bit odd - or calculated.

    "This seems exactly parallel, to me, to Gnus don't know of the discussions about Mosaic Law in early Christianity or the formation of the canon amd tradition in Christianity."

    You keep bringing up Gnus, as if Islam has something real to do with God for a Christian; or with reasonable religion for a secular minded person. You might just as well spend your time defending the honor of the doctrines The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, The Latter Day Saints, and the disciples of Mary Baker Eddy; all of whom include as members friendly and sometimes personally respectable people. That must according to you make those doctrines "true" and respectable too.

    Even Omer doesn't accept that.

    "And I would stick in my pence."

    I actually wrote that first, before changing it to "cents". "Pence" seemed to come off as arch.

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  94. Jeremy Taylor said...

    " 'If you were, you'd answer DNW's criticism about the Hadith,'

    What criticisms? All DNW did was post a string of random quotations from the Hadith and other sources that he felt were immoral or just embarrassing for Muslims,
    "

    How do you know what I expect Muslims would think about them? They are their hadiths and scriptures, not mine. And "the other sources" you mention when it came to Islamic sources, was the Koran itself. Did you find those Koran texts embarrassing, ungodly, or ridiculous?


    "whilst showing not the slightest knowledge of their interpretation or the place of the Hadith within the Islamic tradition."


    "The Islamic tradition" he says. While utilizing the definite article in relation to "Islamic Tradition".

    You might try defending that, before you do anything else, Jeremy.

    I don't expect people here to be believing Christians or even theists. I would expect however that Christian or not, casual observer or not, the manifest difference between the personal character, preaching content, and image of the Divine presented by the Jesus of the Gospels, and by the Mohammad of the Koran and the hadiths, is so manifestly at intellectual odds that one cannot possibly be taken seriously as "true", if the other is. Logically, from an external point of view, they are mere contraries and one or both may be false. Internally, they are contradictory, and one cannot be true if the other is. They cannot both be true.

    What in the world then, other than some benighted gathering-in of the theistic strays, or some misplaced if humanly understandable tenderness for the feelings of individual Muslim people, is going on, I cannot imagine.

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  95. Glenn,

    "I see nothing in this which suggests that he might have disagreed that, 'The judicial precepts did not bind for ever, but were annulled by the coming of Christ[.]'"

    Maybe I don't understand the nuances in your usage of judicial precepts. But when I read that same Bahnsen article I see that he's expecting OT moral law to be followed precisely, without deviation. His exceptions are what he'd probably classify as non-moral laws: animal sacrifices, Levitical priest, and cultic dietary laws. For him, it's that minor change -- cutting the non-moral fat -- that "surpasses the Old Covenant in glory, power, and finality." He does imply (more than imply) that judicial acts in the Bible are the only valid judicial acts.

    I don't recall a biblical story about Yahweh smiting a man because he ate shellfish. Maybe I'm wrong. But I recall a lot of stories that would fall under the umbrella of the moral laws Bahnsen likes. So in dealing with men like Bahnsen, it's fair to cite any OT story or moral law or punishment as evidence for or against biblical moral authority. According to him, Jesus did not dismiss any of those.

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  96. @Jeremy Taylor

    "Let us have a more sensible discussion. How do you as a Muslim understand the passages about Muhammed's questionable actions? What are the traditional explanations?"

    Let's start with the enslavement of the women and children of the Banu Qurayza. How would you explain this?

    Jeremy,

    Thanks for your reasonable and genuine question.

    I don't know the traditional explanations which I assume would be in Arabic and other languages. I am not of Arab origin. I took several semesters of Arabic in undergraduate over almost 25 years ago and I can understand the Arabic that is in the Qur'an because it has been supplied with diacritical marks to help non-Arabs read it.

    There is more and more translations into English but I don't know how scholars have responded to the exact question of how to address the enslavement of the women and children of Banu Qurayza.

    Personally, this issue of battles where women and children were enslaved bothered me a lot when I found out about it in my very late teens when I read Islamic history.

    It bothered me a lot in terms of its ethics.

    How would a wife or a killed husband or a daughter of a killed father cope with becoming in servitude to the tribe that killed them?

    It would be horrible.

    Of course, as you eloquently and fairly point out this is not specific to Islamic history but is something that is allowed, even was demanded at one time that I recall in the Bible.

    After reading about the Prophet's life history in detail and the hadiths and especially the Qur'an, I firmly believe that the Prophet would feel the same way like us and not allow such a practice today.

    The Qur'an in many places calls on people to free slaves. Below is just one verse.

    It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing. (Quran 2:177)

    Unfortunately, when tribes fought, they thought that it was within their right to take the women and children captives when they defeated the other tribes. Since the inter-tribal raids occurred for centuries, if not thousand(s) of years before, and within their lifetime, they would reason that they are getting even with what happened 10 years ago or so on. For some scenarios among Arab tribal warfare if the men were killed in battle, they would probably say that if they leave the women and children, then for certainty another tribes that did no sacrifices in fighting would come and take them away. The tribes made money from getting ransom for the captives. It was almost a part of the economy. Of course, these are sham justifications but there was only so much the Prophet can change within people with the years he was in his Ministry.

    I don't mean true "Muslims" when I mean the people but I mean the mindset of the people that the Prophet was struggling to change.

    The Prophet was a force for change in this. He would free any slaves he was given for example. When he freed and married a woman from the Bani Mustaliq tribe, a pagan tribe that fought against the Muslims, then the Muslims freed all of their Bani Mustaliq slaves reasoning how can they have the Prophet's in-laws as their slaves.

    After the conquest of Makkah, there was a very large tribe(s) that fought the Muslims hoping they can save their own pagan shrines and that they can reconvert the Kaaba back into a pagan shrine. The Muslims defeated them. The Prophet later urged the Muslims to free them from captivity.

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  97. @Jeremy Taylor: "What criticisms? All DNW did was post a string of random quotations from the Hadith and other sources that he felt were immoral or just embarrassing for Muslims, whilst showing not the slightest knowledge of their interpretation or the place of the Hadith within the Islamic tradition."

    Ah. I wasn't clear there, was I? No, I was referring to such lines of his as these:

    "...and it is up to you to estimate which fruit is the rotten one."

    "Because, because, ... well, who can say why coherently. / Nobody here, apparently."

    "...on some basis or another though you have not stipulated what that rule is."

    "...welcome to the world of polemical editing..."

    "...without however mentioning them by name or collection or the underlying rationale."

    "...there is no official body..."

    "...there is no way of sorting the false from the true; or even the doctrinal from the heterodox."

    "...you cannot trust... to tell you what it means, or to consistently reveal the authentic... what have you got in the first place?"

    "What exactly makes you think it 'likely' false? And what kind of rule do you use in order to sort out... from the supposedly true... and thereby testify to the veracity of...?"

    "The authentic (or not)... as found in the authoritative (or not)..."

    "[They] reveal and illustrate important points... Or they don't if they are not authentic. / Kind of hard to tell."

    "I tried to select... since that is often referred to as the most reliable source. Unless it is not, of course."

    "It would be just as nice if there were any real way to know who actually expressed them and when and why."

    "...which might be authentic or might not be authentic, depending ... on who we ask, and their reasons for concluding one way or another."

    "..what possible evidence internally or externally is there for the originary claim which purports to establish the historicity of... and the moral validity of..."

    "Just because they are nice or sound nice does not give evidence of..."

    That is, I took DNW to be asking for the very "knowledge of their interpretation or the place of the Hadith within the Islamic tradition" that you take him to task for lacking; and I took his "string of random quotations from the Hadith and other sources that he felt were immoral or just embarrassing for Muslims" to be examples purportedly showing the same seeming lack on the part of Omer and others (and to be therefore secondary to that knowledge of interpretation, etc.). I bet you could show DNW that every single one of his quotations was radically misunderstood, and he would be content, so long as you also provided the general principles he asked for--which, by the by, would be among the things you asked for (along with their application to some specific cases, such as that of Banu Qurayza).

    If I am wrong about any of the above, I am sure someone will tell me. :)

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  98. Please note that no religious scripture or at the very least, no non-modern religious scripture, encourages the freeing of slaves as strongly like the Qur'an.

    The Prophet did not make full changes to all practices but he was just one man.

    I would like for us to reflect on some of what he did by quoting the French writer and poet Lamartine who said in his Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77

    "If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

    "Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

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  99. @Jeremy Taylor: "I don't take the Muslim side... And I was critical of Chad and of other left-liberals... I think it is shame, though, that some Christians... Muslims are sometimes also guilty of this kind of nonsense too..."

    Hey, no need to defend yourself to me. I have rather a high opinion of your contributions here.

    But I *am* dressing as a left-liberal for Halloween this year, just to mess with the lot of you.

    "As for the falsificationist challenge, when it comes to terrorism at least, the peculiar form of Jihadi terrorism that is the primary concern when we talk of Islamic terrorism, comes entirely from off-shoot of Wahhabism (it doesn't even come from mainstream Wahhabism). This suggests at least a very complex relationship between this terrorism and mainstream Islam, given Wahhabism's historical place in the history of Sunni Islam."

    That seems likely. And no doubt Wahhabism is a good contemporary test case. But the original challenge was more broad than merely about terrorism.

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  100. @DNW:

    Where's that other dragon scripture from, specifically? That was quite powerful. Reminded me of "The Seafarer" or Gummere's *Beowulf*. Maybe that was deliberate.

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  101. @Omer: "... but there was only so much the Prophet can change within people with the years he was in his Ministry. [...] The Prophet did not make full changes to all practices but he was just one man."

    vs. (quoted with implicit approval):

    "This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death... Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

    Ok. So which was it? I said earlier:

    "So so-and-so can found a world-historical religion/lead armies/fight demons/whatever, but he can't be better than the people around him, *because it was long ago and far away*? So-and-so can introduce new gods/defeat empires/beat Satan/whatever, but *moral reform*, *that's* a bridge too far? To which the obvious reply--as above with followers and deserts--is that if William Wilberforce, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Candy Lightner--pick your moral exemplar--can do it, why again couldn't so-and-so?"

    So which was it? Was Muhammad greater than all other men? Or was he one sole guy trying to beat the clock? Take your pick. If he was all that and a bag of chips, then you can't avail yourself of his limitations in order to block questions about his morality. Or if he was hamstrung by his means and the time available, then in at least an important moral respect, he was inferior to a dozen other people we could name, who accomplished what he could not, and did so without any extra divine assistance.

    "'Take what you like,' said God, 'take it, and pay for it.'"--old proverb, quoted by Antony Flew.

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  102. laubadetriste said...
    @DNW:

    Where's that other dragon scripture from, specifically? That was quite powerful. Reminded me of "The Seafarer" or Gummere's *Beowulf*. Maybe that was deliberate. May 17, 2016 at 12:19 PM


    Yes, a hymn, and it reads like heroic age poetry; probably as you note, more like the Seafarer than say, The Wanderer. I don't know the Skalds well enough to think of a parallel offhand. (I'm not a poetry fan per se, but I will have something to say about that in a moment.)

    I was going to include Cleanthes' Hymn to Zeus Pater, but didn't. http://www.mircea-eliade.com/from-primitives-to-zen/139.html


    This one, I think you mean:

    ... the Thunder-wielder. He slew the Dragon, then disclosed the waters, and cleft the channels of the mountain torrents. He slew the Dragon lying on the mountain: his heavenly bolt of thunder Tvaṣṭar fashioned. Like lowing kine in rapid flow descending the waters glided downward to the ocean. ...

    Then, giving life to Sun and Dawn and Heaven, thou foundest not one foe to stand against thee....

    King of all that moves and moves not, of creatures tame and horned, the Thunder-wielder. Over all living men he rules as Sovran, containing all as spokes within the felly."



    It is a rendition of HYMN XXXII. Indra

    This one, HYMN CXXIX. Creation, and this one, HYMN XXXVI. Agni., are pretty interesting in my estimation as well.

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  103. On poetry, which I do not generally care for.

    "laubadetriste said...

    Where's that other dragon scripture from, specifically? That was quite powerful. Reminded me of "The Seafarer" or Gummere's *Beowulf*. Maybe that was deliberate."


    Yeah kind of grabbed me too, though I could not name 6 poets I have actually read, if someone offered me a thousand dollars to do it on the spot. Uh Homer and uh Shakespeare, uh Dryden, uh the guy who wrote Faust with the business about "the face that launched a thousand ships and burned the topless towers" ... and uhhhh.

    Beavis and Butthead enter stage right ... "He said 'topless' hehehehe"

    But here's something. Was looking at Heidegger's lectures "Introduction to Metaphysics" the other day, and came across the name Holderlin again.

    I decided to finally, after all these years, look him up; and came across this on the Internet.

    The site http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/patmos/ stinks, but I prefer its translation to that found on the Harpers.org website, or the German site.


    No wonder Heidegger was so struck.

    "The god Is near, and hard to grasp.
    But where there is danger,
    A rescuing element grows as well.
    Eagles live in the darkness,
    And the sons of the Alps
    Cross over the abyss without fear
    On lightly-built bridges.
    Therefore, since the summits
    Of Time are heaped about,
    And dear friends live near,
    Growing weak on the separate mountains —
    Then give us calm waters;
    Give us wings, and loyal minds
    To cross over and return...." See link for the rest


    From In Lovely Blue, is not bad either.

    If men cannot be dissuaded from writing poetry, then that is the type they probably should write. Or Beowulf.

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  104. @ laubadetriste


    You just did me a favor. I have not seen the translation version of The Wanderer I had in school, for years. Your having brought it to mind, I typed in the first line as I remembered it.

    And "Lo and Behold" as you know who would say, there it was via the miracle of an ever evolving Internet search technology. http://www89.homepage.villanova.edu/catherine.staples/ancient/wanderer.html

    Apparently by Charles W. Kennedy.

    Take the first two lines and the last two lines and put them together ...

    Now, as your reward for this boon service, we will honor you with a loudspeaker broadcast of Walton's Richard III Prelude as you heroically drag your deer the half mile up into deer camp. Might even save you a beer.

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  105. Jeremy,

    I made two responses in case you miss one of them. I made a longer one and then laubadetriste commented and then I added a little more.

    Please let me know what you think of them.

    I appreciate your tone and sincerity.

    I want to also add that I don't see morals in society as static.

    The Qur'an addresses the reader to forbid the evil and to enjoin the good. The word it is uses is ma'ruf which is from the verb 'aa ra fa. 'aa ra fa has the meaning of recognition, to know.

    When a "m" is added, it converts it to a noun...so "that which is known (to be good)."

    The point I want to say is that what is known to be good changes over time as we learn more and as circumstances change.

    Literal fundamentalists try to make things static as if 7th century Arabian mores are the peak...of course what they mean is the community that the Prophet was with.

    I assume you would see some changes within the Catholic Church itself. I don't think
    Pope Urban 11 or the Church of his day would agree with Vatican 2.

    I do believe that the Prophet was of the highest of morals. God addresses him in Chapter 68 as of being with khuluqin 'azeem. Khuluqin is morals and 'azeem is great since in Arabic the modifier follows the noun. I am not trying to teach Arabic but just to show that I am not saying based on the Qur'anic text itself.

    However, there is nothing in the Qur'an that says that the 7th century Arabian mores are correct. The Qur'an calls on virtues such as honesty, charity, mercy, justice, rationality, gratefulness...it does call for freeing slaves but it did not prohibit slavery outright.

    I think it is simple for us to say slavery should have been prohibited overnight enmasse by fiat because if such happened, then it would have produced all types of social disturbances.

    Alcohol was not forbidden overnight although it causes so much health and social havoc. However, in the Qur'an it was prohibited in stages.

    The natural trajectory was for slavery to be abolished if the Quranic principles were accepted.

    laubadetriste, I find your view to offer a false dichotomy.

    Also, I am not "blocking questions about his morality."

    I believe that Prophet Muhammad and all the Prophets of God were of the highest of morality. I don't like to say he was better than such an such prophet and so on because in one the last 3 verses of Surah 2 in the Qur'an, God tells us not make distinctions between the Prophets.

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  106. @Omer: "laubadetriste, I find your view to offer a false dichotomy."

    Ok. And I find my view not offer a false dichotomy.

    Well then, now that we got to the bottom of that...

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  107. @Omer:

    ...but seriously, I presume you do have *reasons* you're about to provide, why you find my view to offer a false dichotomy, and why you are not blocking questions about Muhammad's morality?

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  108. That is, I took DNW to be asking for the very "knowledge of their interpretation or the place of the Hadith within the Islamic tradition" that you take him to task for lacking; and I took his "string of random quotations from the Hadith and other sources that he felt were immoral or just embarrassing for Muslims" to be examples purportedly showing the same seeming lack on the part of Omer and others (and to be therefore secondary to that knowledge of interpretation, etc.). I bet you could show DNW that every single one of his quotations was radically misunderstood, and he would be content, so long as you also provided the general principles he asked for--which, by the by, would be among the things you asked for (along with their application to some specific cases, such as that of Banu Qurayza).

    Well, I don't pretend to be an expert. Indeed, the point is that I'm not an expert, but even I know enough to realise that it is stupid to mock, for example, the means of determining the legitimacy of the Hadith whilst showing no knowledge of the framework in which these issues have been discussed in the Islamic tradition.

    When an interloper comes here and rubbishes Thomism with a blatant caricature, some commentators try to patiently explain to him where he has gone wrong, others point out that he doesn't know what he is talking about. Personally, I think each approach is okay. Since the criticisms here were made in a very harsh and smug way, and I'm no expert myself, I will simply point DNW in the direction of better sources that he seems to be relying on:

    http://www.amazon.com/Early-Sources-Prophet-Muhammads-Biography/dp/6035012779/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1463528965&sr=1-6&keywords=early+islamic+sources

    http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Jurisprudence-According-Sunni-Schools/dp/1887752978/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1463529224&sr=1-2&keywords=islamic+jurisprudence


    That seems likely. And no doubt Wahhabism is a good contemporary test case. But the original challenge was more broad than merely about terrorism.

    True, Dr. Feser did mention illiberal politics.

    DNW,

    You keep bringing up Gnus, as if Islam has something real to do with God for a Christian; or with reasonable religion for a secular minded person. You might just as well spend your time defending the honor of the doctrines The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, The Latter Day Saints, and the disciples of Mary Baker Eddy; all of whom include as members friendly and sometimes personally respectable people. That must according to you make those doctrines "true" and respectable too.

    Leaving aside the question begging (you are supposed to be showing Islam's depravity, not assuming it), you seem here to be suggesting you can ape the idiocy and fallacies of the Gnus because you find Islam detestable. My whole point is that I am sick of such idiocy wherever it comes from. Here we spend a lot of time complaining and calling out the fallacious and silly claims of internet atheists, it is disappointing you seem to think it okay to act like them in other instances.

    Above you do seem to acknowledge the debates and discussions about the Hadith within Islam, which is at least an improvement.


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  109. Omer, first of all I would like to say that I respect your attitude and appreciate your answers here. Here are a few questions for you.

    Why are we even discussing the various character aspects of Muhammad, doesn’t that say that there are some aspects there to discuss about his character in the first place? Yeah you can explain a few here and there and attribute that to incorrect Hadiths etc but isn’t there too much to put under the rug? Please do not compare his action with Old Testament prophets since that does not justify anything. If he is the person you believe him to be, then he should stand all on his own without relying on the case that it was done like so and so in the Old Testament so that is why it is fine for him to have done it too.

    You can most certainly say that he was the greatest person alive but so can everyone else on whoever they believe in. So what differentiates Muhammed from the many others out there? Why should someone worry about Surah 2 in Quran and not compare him? There are many good verses in the Quran, no doubt about it, but so does every other religious book, why should anyone believe in it?

    At the end of the day is’nt Islam just a works religion? What spiritual advantages does it give to someone over other religions?

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  110. Omer,

    Thank you for you interesting response.


    Of course, as you eloquently and fairly point out this is not specific to Islamic history but is something that is allowed, even was demanded at one time that I recall in the Bible.

    This is true, although it must be said that the Biblical massacres and enslavement seem easier to read symbolically - the slayings of Canaanites, and God's approval, can be read as the slaying of sin and its complete subjection or something along those lines (obviously, I'm giving a very perfunctory and brief attempt). There is a mythic quality to Old Testament narratives and the literal meaning is not necessarily of moral importance. We see this even in Shakespeare. Othello at his death is redeemed. He repents and then he dies cradling Desdemona (who is the Spirit and soul) in the symbolism of the marriage bed. That he dies by suicide, a grave sin to the Christian, is irrelevant to the deeper meaning. It is but a surface device. The same goes, for example, to the story of Job, where God seems to approve the killing of his children and family as part of the testing of him. This surface meaning, despite some pedantic claims by atheists, is not relevant to the deeper story.

    This sort of explanation is harder for some of these instances of Muhammad. Unlike some, even here, I recognise there is complexity of meaning in the Koran and Hadith. But I think it correct to say that it is harder to see how episodes like that with the Banu Qurayza can be read as primarily symbolic. Maybe I'm wrong, but traditional Islamic interpretation would see such episodes as literally true, whatever other meanings they have.

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  111. I made a reply to Lauba and DNW but it seems to have disappeared.

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  112. @Jeremy Taylor: "I made a reply to Lauba and DNW but it seems to have disappeared."

    Filter.

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  113. Lauba,

    Very briefly, my point is I'm not an expert, yet even I can tell it is silly, for example, to mock the means of determining the legitimacy of the Hadith whilst clearly knowing nothing of those means.

    When an interloper comes here and rubbishes Thomism some try to point out his mistakes in details, others just tell him he clearly doesn't know what he is talking about and to do some basic study into the issue before attacking some strongly. I personally think both approaches are legitimate. After all, is this not part of Dr. Feser's critique to the likes of Coyne and P. Z. Myers. If someone doesn't know the first thing about what they are talking about, despite making harsh and sweeping criticisms, I don't think there is any duty to spoon-feed them.

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  114. @ laubadetriste,

    "...but seriously, I presume you do have *reasons* you're about to provide, why you find my view to offer a false dichotomy, and why you are not blocking questions about Muhammad's morality?"

    I think it is should be obvious why it is false dichotomy. If it is not, I may be misunderstanding your question and for that please reformulate or restate your question.

    I think I have provided quite a many reasons about his morality.

    No, he did not change flip the earth's orbit but he did more to bring peace, kindness, spirituality, God consciousness than anyone else I know in human history.

    The Qur'an testifies to Prophet Muhammad's great morals in Surah Al-Qalam, Surah 68. This was a very early revelation. Everyone of his follower would have known about this declaration of his great morals. In Surah 10, the Quraish are called to reflect on Prophet Muhammad's life before he began his ministry.

    If any of his followers would have found anything deficient in his morals as being anything less than great, would they follow him to the tremendous sacrifices they put forth day after day, year after year.

    I believe that Prophet Muhammad's life story is enough to attract attention to one looking for spiritual truths, for guidance as it has for millions who have converted to Islam.

    But the truth of Islam is not even predicated on the Prophet's beautiful morals in how he changed thousands of years of barbarity by himself alone. Again, it was not like the situation with Moses or Jesus who were preaching to their fellow believers and reminding them about their own revelations.

    It was more like Abraham, all alone, but unlike Abraham supremely successful in his own lifetime in transforming a pagan society to be good spiritual people loving each other, ending tribal warfare and it's concomitant slavery of women and children that issues from that, and ending countless other wicked practices, etc.

    Despite all that, the real truth of Islam is predicated on the miraculous Qur'an, miraculous in so many objectively verifiable ways.

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  115. that was me Omer using my other account. :)

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  116. @Jeremy Taylor: "When an interloper comes here and rubbishes Thomism some try to point out his mistakes in details, others just tell him he clearly doesn't know what he is talking about and to do some basic study into the issue before attacking some strongly. I personally think both approaches are legitimate."

    Agreed.

    "If someone doesn't know the first thing about what they are talking about, despite making harsh and sweeping criticisms, I don't think there is any duty to spoon-feed them."

    Agreed.

    Despite not having a duty, then is an opportune time to say, "Look, asshat [to steal Chad's delightful term]--I ain't got time to spoon-feed you, so go read this book and this book and this book, and that'll explain what I'm getting at. Then you can come talk to me."

    Now, that approach is not *immediately* satisfying--but I think everyone here will agree that in at least some cases, it is requisite. Just as with Thomism (to take your example), some things can be quickly explained, but for some other things we might say "Go read Oderberg's *Real Essentialism*"--just so, with the Hadith you or Omer or whoever might say, read such-and-such for starters, etc.

    (Obviously, what can be explained briefly is also a function of the capability and learning of the person doing the explaining. Some people are gifted scholars and teachers.)

    I *am* the guy who went and got the Qur'an Omer recommended. And as you can tell from DNW's posts, he doesn't avoid reading, either.

    But that has not been the approach so far.

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  117. @Jeremy Taylor:

    ...that is, to sum up, in addition to saying *that* someone is wrong, one can, if requested to explain why so, not only explain why so, but also point to where why so is explained. No spoon feeding needed. :)

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  118. I recommended some books for DNW in the post that disappeared. Indeed, I think the links may well have been what got it stuck in the filter. I think any selection of decent works on early Islamic history, Islam, and traditional Islamic jurisprudence would do, though.




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  119. But I also think that no one deserves any pointing in the right direction until they have stopped making ignorant yet arrogant attacks. You need some indication they are willing to listen to more than YouTube videos on the subject.

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  120. @Jeremy Taylor: "I recommended some books for DNW in the post that disappeared. Indeed, I think the links may well have been what got it stuck in the filter. I think any selection of decent works on early Islamic history, Islam, and traditional Islamic jurisprudence would do, though."

    I look forward to seeing your recommendations, when they appear. I should add that judging which books are *decent*, in most subjects, is a sophisticated task.

    "But I also think that no one deserves any pointing in the right direction until they have stopped making ignorant yet arrogant attacks. You need some indication they are willing to listen to more than YouTube videos on the subject."

    I'll let DNW speak on that score. :)

    Unless you were talking about me, in which case nyah nyah I'm rubber and you're glue.

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  121. þeah þe se árǽdde Englisc leoþsangas is god bécen.

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  122. No, definitely wasn't talking about you. Perhaps I have been a little cantankerous with DNW.

    I should add that judging which books are *decent*, in most subjects, is a sophisticated task.

    In this case, all I really mean is a very basic understanding of the history of Islam, Islamic thought, and the discussions about the Koran and Hadith. Really, a few general but scholarly overview would be fine.

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  123. @Omer: "I think it is should be obvious why it is false dichotomy."

    Well, then let's say I'm slow.

    "No, he did not change flip the earth's orbit but he did more to bring peace, kindness, spirituality, God consciousness than anyone else I know in human history."

    This is where the dichotomy comes in. So you make a hyperbolic contrast there between changing the Earth's orbit and doing "more to bring peace, kindness, spirituality, God consciousness than anyone else [you] know in human history." Let us stipulate that you are not unfamiliar with human history, so that the people you know of are not few in number. Now, the force of that lies in contrasting something seemingly very difficult (changing the Earth's orbit) with something easier (doing more to bring peace, kindness, spirituality, and God consciousness than anyone else you know in human history). Implied is that the standard I set for Muhammad is a ridiculous standard--like being able to change the Earth's orbit!--whereas what he in fact did was much easier, at least so much easier as not to be a ridiculous thing to be expected of him. How silly of me, to expect Muhammad to have been able to do something morally as difficult as changing the Earth's orbit! Muhammad surely could not have been able to do that, as is obvious to all...

    But as I explicitly pointed out, some other people in fact accomplished some things you imply Muhammad could not do. And it seems that those people were less capable than he. And so that standard is not in fact so ridiculous as being able to change the Earth's orbit--it is rather so modest as something some other people have in fact done.

    On top of which, when you are not explaining away seeming faults of Muhammad's on grounds of his being all alone and pressed for time, you flatter him to an extraordinary degree. You say he did more to bring peace, kindness, spirituality, and God consciousness than anyone else you know in human history! You quote someone as saying he moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world! That he moved altars, gods, religions, ideas, beliefs and souls! That he had mystic converse with God! That he was philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images! That he was the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire!

    So... why again was it a problem for him if he was all alone and pressed for time?

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  124. Let's say you praised Superman to me. You said he is faster than a speeding bullet! More powerful than a locomotive! Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound! And then I said, Ok, so why didn't he lift that refrigerator the other day that fell on that old lady? And then suppose you said, Lift refrigerators! Refrigerators are heavy! No, he did not *change the Earth's orbit*, but he did more to help Metropolis than anyone else I know in human history! And then suppose I said, Wait a minute--yeah, refrigerators are heavy; but I saw a bunch of guys at the strongman competition do it, and they weren't even from Krypton.

    There's the dichotomy. Was he more capable than any man in history? Then he ought to have been capable of what some other men were capable of. Or was he not so capable? Then, in that respect at least, some other guys have him beat.

    (That style of description of Muhammad reminds me of an anecdote I read somewhere in the *Handy-Book of Literary Curiosities*, about scholars from the University of Salamanca who concluded that since Jesus was the perfect man, therefore he was the best rider, the best painter, the best fencer, etc., in history. To which the obvious reply is not, Yes, he was, but riding and painting and fencing have changed since two thousand years ago in Palestine!; but rather, No, he wasn't.)

    "...but he did more to bring peace, kindness, spirituality, God consciousness than anyone else I know in human history."

    This seems to be an example of the line of argument I said would come back to bite you, when I gave the example, "Thomas Jefferson's ownership of slaves was morally exemplary *because* he wrote the Declaration of Independence, helped shepherd the United States through its early years, fought the Barbary pirates..."

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  125. laubadetriste,

    Those achievements that the French writer Lamartine mentioned took some time to unfold.

    A tremendous amount can happen if one is persistent over time.

    As strange as it might sound to you, changing social institutions like slavery overnight is more difficult than moving armies.

    Changing some institutions, especially in a tribal environment takes more time than I think you appreciate.

    Of course moving armies is meant metaphorically, not in a literal sense like Superman picking up the land which is holding up an army.

    I believe that Prophet Muhammad did more to end slavery than any other man in the history of the world.

    No Prophet Muhammad is not superman....if he was superman, his achievements would be far less amazing but precisely because he is a man, it is amazing.

    Not to want to be repeating myself but the Qur'an does not call on people to accept Islam based on the beautiful morals of the Prophet but on examining and testing the Qur'an itself.

    You mentioned about what I said coming to bite me.

    Earlier you mentioned that I should not undermine myself by what I am saying.

    laubadetriste, if I was campaigning for a candidate in a touch election, I would be worried about all that.

    I am not doing that....I am simply sharing what I believe are rational and ethical grounds for some of my interpretations and beliefs.

    I try not to worry about saying something wrong here or there. I am human so I will err often.

    I believe that if people are sincere and work hard at arriving closer to the truth and stay open minded, then God will guide them more and more. So I don't think any errors I may have made or I may make will mislead anyone who is very sincere.

    I don't find the analogy with Thomas Jefferson appropriate.

    Jefferson had slaves after the Age of Reason, after the Enlightenment or within the Enlightenment.

    There may have been hundreds of millions of people calling for an end to slavery or at least opposed to it in principle at his time.

    It was his choice to have slaves.

    Moreover, Prophet Muhammad freed slaves one after another. Of course, the main mission of Prophet Muhammad was to deliver the final revelation of God to all of mankind.

    But a huge part of the Qur'an deals with social reformation for justice and goodness and in the Qur'an, God (or so Muslims like I believe) calls on people repeatedly to free slaves.

    Thus, since social justice issues like freeing slaves was part of Prophet Muhammad's mission, then to some extent, Prophet Muhammad was sacrificing his life to end wicked practices like slavery.

    I think we may just have to agree to disagree.

    I will be away for a little while and not able to respond for some time.

    By the way, thanks again for getting that Qur'an. I am appreciative of you taking my suggestion. However, .that commentary is not what I favor the most and I don't agree everyone of its views...I favor Muhammad Asad or Abdullah Yusuf Ali's commentary the most. But this was a new commentary that I thought would be good since it has many essays at the end of it.

    Peace to you :)

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  126. @Omer: "As strange as it might sound to you, changing social institutions like slavery overnight is more difficult than moving armies."

    That is no doubt true. But then, we are not talking about overnight--that is more hyperbole--, and we are not comparing changing social institutions just to moving armies--that is an understatement.

    "Changing some institutions, especially in a tribal environment takes more time than I think you appreciate."

    That may be. Perhaps if someone knows more on that head, they can comment.

    But then, Muhammad did in fact change some institutions in a tribal environment. And so the question would be, why change them this way and not that?

    "Not to want to be repeating myself but the Qur'an does not call on people to accept Islam based on the beautiful morals of the Prophet but on examining and testing the Qur'an itself."

    No harm repeating yourself around here. :)

    "Jefferson had slaves after the Age of Reason, after the Enlightenment or within the Enlightenment. / There may have been hundreds of millions of people calling for an end to slavery or at least opposed to it in principle at his time. / It was his choice to have slaves."

    Ah. No, the example of Thomas Jefferson was an example. The point was not about the time he lived in, or the number of people opposed to what he did. The point was about whether something one does is justified merely because of what else one does.

    Let me make another parallel, from before the Age of Reason, and with deliberately fanciful and smaller stakes: Suppose St. Francis punched a deer in the face. Now, St. Francis also did many good things. But would it be the case that, because St. Francis also did many good things, therefore it was good of him to punch a deer in the face? No, it would not. The deer likely hurt something fierce, for St. Francis had a strong right hook. And while it might be the case that punching the deer in the face was a good thing--say, if the deer had it coming--it would *not* be the case that that was so merely because St. Francis also did other things that happened to be good.

    And so with Jefferson, having nothing to do in my example either with his time or with the people around him; and so with Muhammad likewise.

    Now, if you want to argue, as you sometimes seem to, that some moral disputes are historically relative, we can do that too, when you come back.

    "I think we may just have to agree to disagree."

    Let's not. No, let's agree to enjoy a temporary respite. I earnestly hope your trip or whatever is both safe and profitable.

    "By the way, thanks again for getting that Qur'an. I am appreciative of you taking my suggestion."

    Oh, don't thank me. Lazy of me, really, not to have read it in full before.

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  127. DJ,

    Maybe I don't understand the nuances in your usage of judicial precepts.

    Moral precepts and judicial precepts were contrasted, and an example was given (now reworded): moral precepts have to do with, e.g., "don't commit adultery", and judicial precepts have to with, e.g., "the penalty for committing adultery is X".

    The distinction between the two is easy to see and understand.

    No nuances required.

    It is much like the distinction between: "don't drive while drunk", and "your vehicle will be confiscated if you're caught driving while drunk".

    Or like the difference between: "don't bounce checks", and "your account will be closed if you bounce three or more checks".

    Or like the difference between: "don't block the crosswalk when stopping for a red light", and "some software guy will pound on the hood of your car if you block the crosswalk when stopping for a red light".

    But when I read that same Bahnsen article I see that he's expecting OT moral law to be followed precisely, without deviation.

    I take this to mean that he thought it continues to be true that the crosswalk should not be blocked when stopping for a red light, and not that it also continues to be true that some software guy will pound the hood of your car if you block the cross walk when stopping for a red light.

    Now, you have your own unique way of interpreting things, so perhaps you take it to mean that, since adulterers were to be put to death under the Old Law, Bahnsen believed that adulterers should continue to be put to death under the New Law.

    But if that's how you take it, then how would you account for the following from Bahnsen's Theses on Divorce and Spousal Abuse:

    "A regenerate believer who falls into the sin of adultery will offer genuine repentance for it (Ps. 51; Jas. 4:8-10; I John 1:9; Matt. 5:23-24) and do the works appropriate for turning from it (Matt. 3:8; Acts 26:20). Refusal to repent in this way must be taken as a sign that the person is not truly a believer (I Cor. 6:9-10; Prov. 28:13; Luke 13:3, 5) - eventuating in excommunication, if need be."

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  128. When most Western people hear the term "slavery", it seems that they at least subconsciously confer a conception of the term which is rooted in the slavery imposed in the Americas as a result of the consequences of the African slave trade. That is not how slavery was during the the inception of Islam and the time of the prophet. Slavery corresponded more to what is known as indentured servitude in the Western mind, even if there was particular instances of maltreatment of slaves by certain masters. Slaves were primarily treated as servants of the family. They were entirely dependent upon subsistence, e.g., food and board, from their masters as they couldn't earn a living on their own for whatever reason, and the former were provided it in return for services performed for the latter. Mass freedom couldn't just be granted to slaves because they didn't have the skills, knowledge, wherewithal, etc., to survive on their own, and the society at the time didn't have the infrastructure to deal with such a state.

    In the meantime, the Qur'an promoted their fair and kind treatment, while at the same time proactively called for their manumission (Muhammad himself freed dozens of slaves). That is because the normative prescriptions of Islam are driven by the nature of man, who, because man was created in the image of God Who is Absolutely Free (the Qur'an says "We breathed into him something of Our Spirit") is also free on a relatively absolute plane of being.

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  129. @Omer
    Despite all that, the real truth of Islam is predicated on the miraculous Qur'an, miraculous in so many objectively verifiable ways.


    That is a pretty big claim. How is the Quran miraculous? and how can it be tested in an objectively verifiable way?

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  130. So, after all of this, what's the official Allah approved version of Islam again? And which are the canonical scriptures and commentaries, and according to whom?

    Here are some nice verses though:

    "[113.1] Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn,
    [113.2] From the evil of what He has created,
    [113.3] And from the evil of the utterly dark night when it comes,
    [113.4] And from the evil of those who blow on knots,
    [113.5] And from the evil of the envious when he envies


    I'm sure verse 113.2 sent entire schools of apologists into overdrive.

    And then there is this nice passage too.

    "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
    [111.1] Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.
    [111.2] His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.
    [111.3] He shall soon burn in fire that flames,
    [111.4] And his wife, the bearer of fuel,
    [111.5] Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope


    Regarding this astonishing group of verses we are assured that it is justified of Allah because,

    " ... the holy Prophet was commanded by Allah to gather his close relatives and announce, openly, the invitation of Islam for the first time, and that he was the apostle of Allah ... said the holy Prophet: "I have come from Allah as a warner to preach the Unity of the Lord".

    Hearing this, Abu Lahab exclaimed: "Perdition to thee! Was it for this that thou assembled us?
    "

    And too,

    " ... the danger and enmity of Abu Lahab and his wife was not limited only to that action. They were the worst people of that time and the most habitual enemies of early Islam. "

    Of course this is alleged in a hadith, which unlike the Koran which is always true, might of course be false, or not false, or something in-between. Nonetheless:

    "He and his wife, Umm-i-Jamil; a sister of Abu Sufyan, being specifically mentioned as the cursed ones among the enemies of Islam, hurt the holy Prophet (S) very much.

    A person by the name of 'Tariq Muharibi' says that once Abu Lahab was found going behind the holy Prophet (S) passing through the market place called 'Zul-Mujaz'; (it is close to' Arafat, a short distance from Mecca). He was following behind him (S) shouting to the people not to listen to the holy Prophet (S) saying that he was a mad man and pelting his feet with stones, causing the holy Prophet (S) to walk with bleeding wounds.

    There are many stories of this kind narrated about the ceaseless, hideous treatment and futile statements of Abu Lahab against Prophet Muhammad (S) which can be counted as reasons for why the verses, under discussion, criticize and curse him and his wife so clearly and severely. "


    Well ... no wonder there is a message from Allah saying that Abu Lahab will roast in fire and his wife who bears the fuel will wear a halter of twisted rope.

    Because, if the hadith or pious stories can be trusted, and we do not know for sure that it can, Mohammad was mocked as crazy, and had stones cast at his feet.

    As "the worst people of that time", I guess they got what they deserved for all of time.

    What have Christians to compare with that, whether it is true or not!

    Just stuff like ...

    "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"

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  131. I have a number of questions, basically simple ones, for Omer. He may answer or not as he chooses. However I would prefer he not answer if he aims to pick and choose among them.

    - I take it that you believe that the Koran, every word of it, is the literal word of Allah as spoken either directly to Mohammad, or through Gabriel; and it cannot be in error as to any matter of fact or implication; and that the very letters on the page are sacred. Is this true of your belief?

    - I take it that you agree with Jeremy that this material however, cannot be understood without the commentaries of the hadith. Is this true of your belief?

    - I take it that you also affirm that some hadith materials in their various collections are false or fabricated, and cannot be relied upon to properly explain the Koran despite their having been collected for some such explanatory purpose or perspective originally. Is this your affirmation and belief?

    - I take it that you affirm that not all Muslims, or those considering themselves as following the Religion of Submission, agree on which hadiths are fabricated and useless and which are not. Would you affirm this?

    - I take it that you would agree that either the Sunni or the Shia are right concerning the origins of the organized Muslim faith and its authentic inheritors and authorities, but not both. Do you agree?

    - I take it based upon your previous remarks, that there is within Islam no authoritative body or organization to officially pronounce upon what is canonical and what is not concerning the hadiths. Do you stand by this?


    - I take it that you affirm that Mohammad was the perfect exemplar of a man, but that somehow his less exemplary looking actions were forced upon him by historical circumstances. Is this what you have been saying?

    - I take it that you would agree that Mohammad was illiterate, as the Koran implies or says he was, and that he therefore could not read his own suras after they were written down. Do you agree with this?

    - I take it that you yourself feel sure when a hadith is to be trusted as giving Allah's real meaning to a verse in a Koranic sura, and when it is not; and as to who is competent to say which commentary is explanatory and which is useless and false, even when other Muslims disagree with you? Do you agree that that is a fair representation of your position?

    - I take it that you agree that because the Koran is the literal word of Allah, it can only be properly understood in Arabic. Do you agree with this?

    - I take it that you do not have a definitive list of fabricated and untrustworthy hadiths?

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  132. @Anonymous May 18, 2016 at 7:48 AM: "That is a pretty big claim. How is the Quran miraculous? and how can it be tested in an objectively verifiable way?"

    Since Omer is away for a bit, I think he won't mind if I mention that the last time he was asked about that, he referred people to Gary Miller's essay "The Basis of Muslim Belief".

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  133. Glenn,

    "Moral precepts and judicial precepts were contrasted, and an example was given (now reworded): moral precepts have to do with, e.g., 'don't commit adultery", and judicial precepts have to with, e.g., "the penalty for committing adultery is X'."

    That's what I thought. So I have to respond 1) you're wrong, 2) Bahnsen makes it irrelevant anyway.

    People like Bahnsen do scan the Bible for "the penalty for committing adultery is X." If the Bible calls for stoning for adultery, they want a return to stoning for adultery.

    That should have been clear from What is "Theonomy".

    Further evidence:

    "Scripture lists the following as capital offenses against God: murder ..., adultery..., adultery and unchastity.., sodomy and bestiality..., homosexuality..., rape..., incest..., incorrigibility in children..., sabbath breaking..., kidnapping..., apostasy..., witchcraft, sorcery, and false pretension to prophecy..., and blasphemy... With respect to social affairs the Lord looks with so much scorn upon these crimes that He commands the state to execute those who commit them. Christians do well at this point to adjust their attitudes so as to coincide with their Heavenly Father. Remember the seriousness of the penal law." (Theonomy in Christian Ethics, p.445).

    The fact that Bahnsen talks of excommunication has thrown you off. From there the state takes over:

    "The point, then, is that church and state can be separated with respect to function, instrument, and scope and yet both be responsible to God... the law does not grant the state to enforce matters of conscience (thus granting "freedom of religion"), but it does have the obligation to prohibit and restrain public unrighteousness (thus punishing crimes from rape to public blasphemy). The state is not an agent of evangelism and does not use its force to that end; it is an agent of God, avenging His wrath against social violations of God's law." (TCE, p 426-7)

    But even if a Bahnsen would relent and agree lethal injection for adultery is more godly under "new law," I don't see that as a glorious improvement.

    I'm not suggesting Bahnsen is right or in a majority. I'm suggesting the Bible can be interpreted in ways that would make the worst of its followers as bad a the worst of Muslims.


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  134. DNW,

    "As 'the worst people of that time', I guess they got what they deserved for all of time. What have Christians to compare with that, whether it is true or not!"

    There's plenty in the Bible that compares with your examples. If verse 113.2 of the Koran sent entire schools of apologists into overdrive, Isaiah 45:7 should do the same: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Or Lamentations 3:38, "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" (Both KJV)

    If the Koran's 111.1-5 are astonishing, we find many examples in the Bible of the same thing. You can look at Lamentations 3, Revelation 14:10-11, Romans 1:18, Matthew 10:15. Matthew 22:35, etc..., etc..., etc...

    Moses killed 3000 for a dispute over theology. How is that better than the rhetoric against Abu Lahab?


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  135. Don Jindra said...
    DNW,

    'As 'the worst people of that time', I guess they got what they deserved for all of time. What have Christians to compare with that, whether it is true or not!'
    There's plenty in the Bible that compares with your examples. "


    I'm still trying to figure out what it is that you are supposedly arguing for or against. I've been comparing and contrasting the Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, with the Mohammad recorded (or not) in the Koran and the hadiths.

    Am I to take it that you are arguing for the comparative moral virtue of Mohammad and his authenticity as a purveyor of the words of Allah, relative to the moral character of the Jesus of the Gospels, on the basis of what Moses is recorded to have done in the old Testament? This is your "argument"?

    Because other than that, I can't figure out why you are pestering me with this kind of irrelevancy. Is there something I am on record as claiming for the Old Testament that you wish to challenge or dispute?

    "If verse 113.2 of the Koran sent entire schools of apologists into overdrive, Isaiah 45:7 should do the same: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Or Lamentations 3:38, "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" (Both KJV)

    If the Koran's 111.1-5 are astonishing, we find many examples in the Bible of the same thing. You can look at Lamentations 3, Revelation 14:10-11, Romans 1:18, Matthew 10:15. Matthew 22:35, etc..., etc..., etc...


    Again, what are you trying to demonstrate regarding the comparisons and contrasts I have made, with your references?

    We have already been through Matthew 10:15, and all you can do is insist it is a curse, because ... the Geneva crackpot. Oh, and apparently something about collective responsibility and about Jesus as part of the trinity. Are you sure you were not a Protestant fundamentalist bibliolatry cult member at one time?

    And so now let's see what your Matthew 22:35 example (thru 40) has to say:

    35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    38 This is the first and great commandment.

    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."


    Yeah you are right, Don. That sure makes Mohammad-kill-the-unbeliever look good by comparison, doesn't it ...

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  136. Don Jindra said,

    "Moses killed 3000 for a dispute over theology."

    Is that what you call what they were doing? Disputing theology? Lordy Don, if you want to indict me over some of my favorite passages in the Old Testament, those are not the ones to use.

    Here, I'll give you a couple.

    "And when Jehu was come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she painted her face, and tired her head, and looked out at a window.

    And as Jehu entered in at the gate, she said, Had Zimri peace, who slew his master?

    And he lifted up his face to the window, and said, Who is on my side? who? And there looked out to him two or three eunuchs.

    And he said, Throw her down.

    So they threw her down: and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trode her under foot.

    And when he was come in, he did eat and drink, and said, Go, see now this cursed woman, and bury her: for she is a king's daughter.

    And they went to bury her: but they found no more of her than the skull, and the feet, and the palms of her hands.


    Or this one:

    And Jehu gathered all the people together, and said unto them, Ahab served Baal a little; but Jehu shall serve him much. Now therefore call unto me all the prophets of Baal, all his servants, and all his priests; let none be wanting: for I have a great sacrifice to do to Baal; whosoever shall be wanting, he shall not live...

    And they proclaimed it. And Jehu sent through all Israel: and all the worshippers of Baal came, so that there was not a man left that came not. And they came into the house of Baal; and the house of Baal was full from one end to another ...

    And Jehu went ... into the house of Baal, and said unto the worshippers of Baal, Search, and look that there be here with you none of the servants of the Lord, but the worshippers of Baal only ...

    And it came to pass, as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, that Jehu said to the guard and to the captains, Go in, and slay them; let none come forth. And they smote them with the edge of the sword ...

    And they brought forth the images out of the house of Baal, and burned them. And they brake down the image of Baal, and brake down the house of Baal, and made it a draught house unto this day. Thus Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel.


    Or this:

    "So the army went out into the field against Israel, and the battle was fought in the forest of Ephraim. And the men of Israel were defeated there by the servants of David, and the loss there was great on that day, twenty thousand men. The battle spread over the face of all the country, and the forest devoured more people that day than the sword.

    And Absalom happened to meet the servants of David. Absalom was riding on his mule, and the mule went under the thick branches of a great oak, and his head caught fast in the oak, and he was suspended between heaven and earth, while the mule that was under him went on.

    And a certain man saw it and told Joab, “Behold, I saw Absalom hanging in an oak.”

    Joab said to the man who told him, “What, you saw him! Why then did you not strike him there to the ground? I would have been glad to give you ten pieces of silver and a belt.”

    But the man said to Joab, “Even if I felt in my hand the weight of a thousand pieces of silver, I would not reach out my hand against the king's son, for in our hearing the king commanded you and Abishai and Ittai, ‘For my sake protect the young man Absalom.’ On the other hand, if I had dealt treacherously against his life[ (and there is nothing hidden from the king), then you yourself would have stood aloof.”

    Joab said, “I will not waste time like this with you.”

    And he took three javelins in his hand and thrust them into the heart of Absalom while he was still alive in the oak. And ten young men, Joab's armor-bearers, surrounded Absalom and struck him and killed him.
    "

    See?


    "How is that better than the rhetoric against Abu Lahab?"

    It's more engrossing.

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  137. How is violence in the Old Testament relevant to this discussion at all? Nowhere do you see Christians drafting and implementing oppressive laws on the basis of Old Testament verses, whereas you see precisely that going on en masse in Muslim countries with regard to the Qur'an and the Hadith.

    This should tell us something about the high degree of interpretive flexibility present in Islam that is not present in Christianity: For whatever reason, it is disturbingly easy to utilize Islamic texts in the service of oppression. Common sense dictates that if Christ had been alleged to be a warlord who went around beheading Jews and Romans, Christian history would've been orders of magnitude more violent than it was.


    And incidentally, the question that really matters -- whether Islam is, on the whole, a force for violence or a force for peace -- is quite separate from the questions of whether the true interpretation of Islam is one that exemplifies peace, beauty, goodness, etc., and whether the rest of us just need to stop acting like "Gnus" and do a bit more reading to figure that out. Again, as long as it remains disturbingly easy to use Islamic texts to prop up, say, a law about apostasy being punishable by death, does anyone really care what the true interpretation of Islam is? Not much, apparently, and much less so about the comparability of these texts with the Old Testament.

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  138. "laubadetriste said...

    @Anonymous May 18, 2016 at 7:48 AM: "That is a pretty big claim. How is the Quran miraculous? and how can it be tested in an objectively verifiable way?"

    Since Omer is away for a bit, I think he won't mind if I mention that the last time he was asked about that, he referred people to Gary Miller's essay "The Basis of Muslim Belief".

    May 18, 2016 at 10:46 AM"


    Unless, I missed some deduction Miller was making, his proof of the validity of Islam, is the existence of the Koran; which he refers to as a miracle.

    I suppose the miraculousness of it is found in the supposition that it is perfect in every way because because it contains on that same supposition only "truths" which are known to be truths because the Koran is miraculously perfectly true ... And therefore if a verse seems to make a categorically false claim, it can be explained away because it was those particular Arabian Jews who thought Ezra was the Son of God, or those particular Arabian Christians who saw Mary as part of the Trinity, who Mohammad knew, or Allah via Gabriel was referring to, and not all the others.


    Miller says regarding the origin of the Koran and potential explanations and analyses

    "An interesting feature of the Qur'an is that it replies to critics as to its origin. That is, no one has yet come up with suggestion as to where this book came from which is not commented on within the book itself.

    In fact, the new Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading Qur'an, mentions that over the centuries there has been many theories as to where this book came from. There conclusion: today, no sensible person believes any of these theories. This leaves the Christians in some difficulty. You see, all the theories suggested so far , according to this encyclopedia, are not really acceptable to anyone sensible today. They are too fantastic.
    "

    This is the review he finds too fantastic: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08692a.htm

    Now, in an attempt to distance the Koran from a collection of "witty sayings" Miller remarks,

    "The collection of things said by the Prophet is the subject and the content of the Hadith. But the subjects and contents of the Qur'an are all in a form of a composition and explanation. I site as an example the chapter, Yusuf, which is an entire story in great detail about on e particular episode of one portion of the life of one man. It is a composition."

    Placing aside the fact that what is a fabricated hadith and what is not seem to be in perpetual and unsettled question, one is confronted with the matter of just in relation to what this distinction of a "composition and explanation" which Miller introduces, is supposed to apply. If to the hadiths, then it is a trivial and incomplete distinction, since per definition the hadiths are ostensible records of sayings the supposed utility of which is their explanatory power ... when that is, they are not said to be fabricated compositions of someone untrustworthy.

    As one scans through the Koran one thing one does notice is that much of it - insofar as it is actually intelligible - is in the form of a series of flowery juridical-like proclamations; sometimes mixed with hortatory aimed at Mohammad's followers on the occasion of some particular event or series of events.

    Still looking for Miller's stuff about the genies.

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  139. Jeremy Taylor says,

    DNW,

    " 'You keep bringing up Gnus, as if Islam has something real to do with God for a Christian; or with reasonable religion for a secular minded person. You might just as well spend your time defending the honor of the doctrines The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, The Latter Day Saints, and the disciples of Mary Baker Eddy; all of whom include as members friendly and sometimes personally respectable people. That must according to you make those doctrines "true" and respectable too.'

    Leaving aside the question begging (you are supposed to be showing Islam's depravity, not assuming it) ...
    "

    Supposed by whom? I was comparing the pronouncements of the Jesus of the Gospels with the Mohammad of the Koran and the hadiths.

    If you wish to argue that the cards do not speak for themselves, then you just go right ahead and outline the rule according to Hoyle that says that they do not, and cite the goddamned thing instead of pointing off into the fog and bleating about injustice to Islam.

    Your very introduction of "Gnus" as a parallel provides quite the question begging assumption on your own part. You tacitly assume by your complaint that Islam is a religion worthy of predicate respect, and that therefore any of its substantive grotesqueries, must be presumed unless otherwise proven, the result of an insufficient attention to "apologetic detail" to put it in the most polite form possible.


    "... you seem here to be suggesting you can ape the idiocy and fallacies of the Gnus because you find Islam detestable."

    No, I am suggesting that you accord all the other prophetically based religions generally thought to be amalgamations of some near-lunatic's heretical flotsam and jetsam, the same degree of solicitude as you do the doctrines and scriptures of Islam.

    Unless you have some principle for immediately distinguishing the worthiness of one, from another.


    " My whole point is that I am sick of such idiocy wherever it comes from. Here we spend a lot of time complaining and calling out the fallacious and silly claims of internet atheists, it is disappointing you seem to think it okay to act like them in other instances.

    As well as engaging in the kind of question-begging which you accuse others of being guilty, you have apparently confused issues of the historicity of the assertions and claims made by Islam, with theism itself.


    Above you do seem to acknowledge the debates and discussions about the Hadith within Islam, which is at least an improvement.

    That's nice you think so. Perhaps you can stipulate which are canonical and which are not. No one else here seems to be able to; though some of you are quite sure that they must count for something nonetheless.

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  140. DJ,

    The fact that Bahnsen talks of excommunication has thrown you off.

    Not quite.

    The actual fact is that there is an obvious dissonance between your stated view of Bahnsen as "expecting OT moral law to be followed precisely, without deviation", and Bahnsen's stated view that the adulterer should be afforded an opportunity which isn't afforded to him/her by the OT law in Lev. 20:10 (i.e., the opportunity to repent).

    Mentioning Bahnsen's talk of excommunication may succeed in diverting the attention of one or more readers from the dissonance, but it won't succeed in dissipating the dissonance.

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  141. DNW,

    So, presumably PZ Myers with his courtier's reply and Dr. Feser was wrong all along? You appear to be suggesting that because you find Islam detestable that you can make sweeping, harsh criticisms of it without knowing much about it, indeed in such a way that almost celebrates your ignorance of it. This is Gnu behaviour. In what sense does it differ from the Gnus who give some simplistic account of the evils of the Bible, with no indication they understand how Christianity views the questionable material brought up by the Gnu? Where is the difference in argument structure? If you answer is that Christianity is prima facie respectable enough to be taken seriously and Islam is not, is this not question begging?

    You mock the differing views and level of authority of the Hadith as an atheist might do so - or as I have seen Muslims - of the differing accounts of the life of Jesus, canonical and apocryphal, without any acknowledgment that Christians have thought about these issues and the nature of the authority they give to the different accounts.

    My argument is not question begging, as I have said little substantive in favour of Muhammad's moral example and teaching. All I have essentially said is have a basic knowledge of something before you spout off about it with harsh and sweeping criticisms of it.

    I suppose you might wish to argue that there are areas of knowledge where we don't need in depth knowledge to dismiss them, for example crystalology. That would be an interesting discussion, but, alas, you don't seem interested in it. But in this case I would at least give a perfunctory opinion that, given the creations of spirituality, philosophy, art and culture, that has come from Islam, as of Christianity, we should at least think twice before we decide it is the sort of subject where little knowledge is needed before we dismiss it.

    As for the means in which you can gain knowledge, I have recommended a couple of books. But you could probably get away with a bit of online reading of some more neutral sources. All you need to know about is something of the history of early Islam; the nature of the Koran, Hadith, and early biographies; something of the debates and discussions about the transmission and authority of the accounts of Muhammand's life in the centuries following the first compilations; something about the differing sects (Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Sufi - above you seemed to indicate you didn't even know the basis of the differences between Sunni and Shia until you just checked Wikipedia!) and the differing schools of jurisprudence and theology. You transparently don't have this knowledge as you talk about interpretation of the Hadith with no reference to any of the traditional framework.

    You might start reading these sources (I haven't looked at them in depth, but they seem good internet source:

    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/Public/book_oeiw.html (you will need an institutional subscription for this one)

    http://islamicencyclopedia.org/public/

    Heck, you could even start with taking the time to read in depth (not skim one or two articles) what Wikipedia has to say:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Islam

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_studies
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_terminology
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophetic_biography
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biographies_of_Muhammad
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_Islamic_theology

    No one is asking for expertise or even a lot of knowledge, but the tenor of your comments surely require a basic knowledge.



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  142. - that should have been PZ Myers was right.

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  143. My original post seem, of which the above is a correction, seems to be in the filter.

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  144. Glenn,

    "The actual fact is that there is an obvious dissonance between your stated view of Bahnsen as "expecting OT moral law to be followed precisely, without deviation", and Bahnsen's stated view that the adulterer should be afforded an opportunity which isn't afforded to him/her by the OT law in Lev. 20:10 (i.e., the opportunity to repent)."

    You said that the judicial precepts of the OT do not apply. So if "the penalty for committing adultery is X" is death, that no longer applies. Yet Bahnsen is clear that judicial penalties do still apply. What does repentance have to do with this? Repentance was part of the OT too. But OT penalties and restitution still stand. The OT was always wish-washy about some aspects of marriage. It's clear in reading Bahnsen that he's not looking to separate "old law" from "new law" in a way that would do away with judicial precepts. Quite the contrary. He's looking for ways to justify keeping OT judicial precepts. IMO, he's very clear about this in What Is "Theonomy"? --

    "Jesus endorsed the penal sanctions of the Old Testament law, condemning those who would make them void by their own human traditions (Matt. 15:3-4). Paul likewise upheld the penal standards of the Mosaic judicial law (Acts 25:11). The author of Hebrews leaves us no doubt about the inspired New Testament perspective on the Mosaic penalties, saying "every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward" (2:2). God requires that judges not punish too harshly or too leniently, but assign a penalty proportionate to the crime (cf. "an eye for an eye..."). To uphold genuine justice in their punishments, magistrates need the direction of God's law."

    He's not talking about NT law.


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  145. Anonymous,

    "How is violence in the Old Testament relevant to this discussion at all? Nowhere do you see Christians drafting and implementing oppressive laws on the basis of Old Testament verses"

    Today it's relatively rare. But in its 2000 year history, Christians have on occasion acted like the Muslims of today, using their biblical references to justify violence. There are Christians today with that same inclination. That's why it's relevant. It prompts questions about why the same sacred texts can be different things to different people in different eras.

    DNW,

    Personally, I don't find the Bible too engrossing. But I do like the first half of Ecclesiastes.

    Btw, I don't indict anyone because they read or like biblical text. I wouldn't want anyone to indict me over what I read or watch.

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  146. Don,

    Trying to keep you focused on what one has actually said, is like trying to herd cats.

    ReplyDelete
  147. @Anonymous May 18, 2016 at 7:48 AM: "That is a pretty big claim. How is the Quran miraculous? and how can it be tested in an objectively verifiable way?"

    Since Omer is away for a bit, I think he won't mind if I mention that the last time he was asked about that, he referred people to Gary Miller's essay "The Basis of Muslim Belief".


    Thanks laubadetriste. To be fair, I think this review seems to be a summary, so it does look like it is done in a hurry. Hopefully Omer has some detailed explanations of why he thinks that the Quran is a miracle. At best what Miller describes in there can also be attributed to the Bible (which is not considered a miracle itself). For instance

    The Big Bang Theory
    Genesis 1:6-8 separation of heaven (sky) and the earth
    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen001.htm

    The Expanding Heavens
    Isaiah 42:5 “Thus says the Lord God, he who created the heavens and spread them out….”
    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/isa042.htm

    The City of Iram
    Well the Bible has had similar archaeological claims as well not related to Iram per se but in other cases, nothing new here.

    Predictions
    Well the Bible has had similar claims too.

    Occurrence of Words
    Well that is just similar to numerology. You can find patterns of words in any text you see. As a matter of fact data mining is used nowadays to find patterns in all things data. Similar claims have been made in the Bible, but that does not prove anything.

    A Prophet like Moses
    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/deu018.htm
    The prophet that the verses speak of is Jesus and not Muhammad. This point has been debated so many times I do not want to repeat it see http://www.letusreason.org/islam2.htm

    There are other points that I can mention against the points mentioned by Miller but I do not want to make this a long comment e.g. Every living thing built from water; well that can just be attributed to the age old belief that all of life had the four basic elements earth, fire, wind and water and keeping in view that the Quran was written in a desert terrain where water is essential to life then water can be explained to be used there.

    My intention is to find out why Omer made a big claim such as the Quran being miraculous and also objectively verifiable. Please also note my point is that all the points Miller put out do not explain why the Quran is miraculous (it may well be the case but Miller does not do a good job of it) since if we keep the same standard as used there then the Bible is miraculous too. Maybe I missed something and maybe Omer can give some detailed explanations other than the ones Miller mentioned.

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  148. DNW: [Miller says:] "In fact, the new Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading Qur'an, mentions that over the centuries there has been many theories as to where this book came from. [...] They are too fantastic."
    This is the review he finds too fantastic: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08692a.htm


    Actually, that's the "old" Catholic Encyclopedia. Miller will be referring to this independent work: http://www.worldcat.org/title/new-catholic-encyclopedia/oclc/367202

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  149. DJ

    You said that the judicial precepts of the OT do not apply. So if "the penalty for committing adultery is X" is death, that no longer applies. Yet Bahnsen is clear that judicial penalties do still apply. What does repentance have to do with this?

    1. "You said that the judicial precepts of the OT do not apply. So if "the penalty for committing adultery is X" is death, that no longer applies. Yet Bahnsen is clear that judicial penalties do still apply."

    So? Precepts and penalties are not one and the same thing, and that a different set of precepts are to be brought to bear upon the question of what to do when action A is engaged in does not entail that there no longer is to be some penalty for that action.

    2. "What does repentance have to do with this?"

    You have stated that you view Bahnsen as "expecting OT moral law to be followed precisely, without deviation". But the OT law in Lev. 21:10 does not afford the adulterer an opportunity to escape the penalty prescribed for adultery by repenting (or by any other means), and Bahnsen clearly has stated that the adulterer should be afforded the opportunity to repent. So, both obviously and contrary to your stated view of him, Bahnsen did not expect the OT law to be followed precisely and without deviation.

    - - - - -

    It's clear in reading Bahnsen that he's not looking to separate "old law" from "new law" in a way that would do away with judicial precepts. Quite the contrary. He's looking for ways to justify keeping OT judicial precepts.

    Here is Bahnsen in an interview:

    "I argue in Theonomy in Christian Ethics that the moral standards revealed in scripture have an absolute, unchanging character because they reveal God's character, which is unchanging. The book was directed against Dispensational ethics which sees different standards for different eras of time. My intention was to uphold the principle of Covenant Theology, which assumes continuity between the Old and New Testaments unless scripture teaches otherwise (e.g., infant baptism)."

    Judicial precepts are not moral standards. Neither are judicial penalties.

    - - - - -

    IMO, he's very clear about this in What Is "Theonomy"? --

    "Jesus endorsed the penal sanctions of the Old Testament law..."

    He's not talking about NT law.


    Well, by all means, let us follow Jesus in John as He, Jesus, "endorse[s] the penal sanctions of the Old Testament law":

    3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

    4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

    6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

    7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

    9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

    11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

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  150. Mr. Green said...

    " DNW: [Miller says:] "In fact, the new Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading Qur'an, mentions that over the centuries there has been many theories as to where this book came from. [...] They are too fantastic."
    This is the review he finds too fantastic: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08692a.htm

    Actually, that's the "old" Catholic Encyclopedia. Miller will be referring to this independent work: http://www.worldcat.org/title/new-catholic-encyclopedia/oclc/367202

    May 19, 2016 at 11:33 AM
    "


    Thanks.

    You are no doubt right.

    By, 'In fact, the new Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading Qur'an, mentions ..." Miller apparently meant the "New Catholic Encyclopedia"; whereas I linked to a New Advent Catholic Catholic Encyclopedia on-line which is from what ... 1922 at latest if you count supplements?


    A more complete and uncorrected Miller passage than I quoted above is this: "In fact, the new [sic*] Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading Qur'an, mentions that over the centuries there has [sic] been many theories as to where this book came from. There [sic] conclusion: today, no sensible person believes any of these theories. This leaves the Christians in some difficulty. You see, all the theories suggested so far , according to this encyclopedia, are not really acceptable to anyone sensible today. They are too fantastic."

    I guess I will have to guess as to what is too fantastic to be worth citing in detail.

    * I would suppose that if Miller meant "new" as a simple adjective, rather than as part of the title of the "New Catholic Encyclopedia" he would not have capitalized "Encyclopedia".

    Or maybe not, since though he lectures us on the precise meaning and use of words in the Koran, he has himself trouble with noun and verb agreement, and case, and confuses a 3rd person plural pronoun (possessive) with a different but similar sounding word.

    Maybe English is not the first language of this scholar either.

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  151. Jeremy,

    If you want to go off on an unsubstantiated ramble in a fit of defensive pique, feel free to do so. But I am not going to follow you around cleaning up the mess you are creating.

    I have quoted text for illustrative purposes and have argued narrowly. I have repeatedly compared the Jesus of the Gospels with the Mohammad of the Koran and hadiths. I have stated that the historicity of the originary claims regarding the Koran are all that matters to me when evaluating its supposed "truth" and that it's real truth, especially one would imagine for a Christian, is contingent only upon that.

    None of this matters to you. You find my implications rude and offensive and have taken umbrage on behalf of .... well, I don't really know what: the sensibilities of Muslim believers? The objective "truth" of the "Koran"? Or, at what: Some polemical methodology which you attribute to both me as regards the historicity of the Koran and to PZ Myers as regards the intellectual respectability of theistic belief per se?

    I don't quite know what your deal is, but I am bored with the thankless task of trying to get you to quote me properly, and trying to drag your ass back up on track.

    Apparently you imagine there is some intrinsic plausibility to the so-called revelation of Koran which parallels the case with bare theism; and you think that in order to evaluate the historicity of the claims regarding the transmission of these Divine pronouncements of "Allah" by Gabriel to Mohammad, one must sort through a thousand years of some unspecified, contested, and contradictory body of commentary in order to draw any conclusions.

    If this is the case, then the same rule you stipulate for Islam, must apply to any other prophetic religion - and as I have pointed out there have been many - that comes down the pike. For on what presumptive, non-question begging basis would you purport to pre-sort them?

    Thus the historicity of the claims of Mormonism regarding Joseph Smith are to be judged according to the apologetic work of the Latter Day Saints, and not according to eye witnesses, historical records, or the plausibility and moral elevation of the doctrines. The supernatural validity of the claims of Scientology are likewise to be evaluated not through historical reference, or US court documents or various preserved media, but according to the explanations, excuses and special pleadings of the Scientology organization itself.

    There are lot's of religions out there cobbled together out of half-digested pieces of Christianity and Judaism. They need your help as well, Jeremy.

    When they call, as they are now, at this very moment, will you be found wanting in their defense?

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  152. Read,

    " I have stated that the historicity of the originary claims regarding the Koran are all that matters to me when evaluating its supposed "truth" and that it's real truth, especially one would imagine for a Christian, is contingent only upon that."

    as

    " I have stated that the historicity of the originary claims regarding the Koran are all that matters to me when evaluating its supposed "truth" and that its real truth, especially one would imagine for a Christian, is contingent only upon that."

    or even as

    " I have stated that the historicity of the originary claims regarding the Koran are all that matters to me when evaluating its supposed "truth" and that it's real truth, especially one would imagine for a Christian, which is contingent only upon that."

    also,

    There are lots of religions


    Now, I have to go by some IR scopes from China ...

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  153. DNW, fighting for the right of the ignorant to lampoon what they know nothing about since 2016 (or earlier, I don't want to take any credit from you - just let me know).

    You didn't respond to my points about understanding what one critiques. If you wish to make an argument that we don't necessarily need to understand a subject to dismiss it in harsh and sweeping ways, then make that argument. It is an interesting point. Maybe you don't need to have any real knowledge. But you don't make this argument. You don't really make an argument at all. You seem to assume that Christianity is inherently plausible and deserves respect - like taking the time to have a basic knowledge of it before dismissing it - but Islam is not. Yet you give no indication how you would respond to the Gnu who dismissed Christianity as you do Islam. And plenty of Gnus act as dismissive and indignant towards Christianity as you do to Islam. So, please, let's hear your argument for why you don't need to have the basic knowledge, even that given in the wikis I posted, before you make your criticisms? And why this doesn't count for Gnus?

    Or you can go back to showing everyone how smart you are by mocking writers' use of English.

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  154. Jeremy, it's been a long if amusing day. It was a long day before I took time out to reply to your comic fits of pique, and it was a long day before I subsequently went off to do some business with the Chinese.

    But this last one of yours, is so egregious, it deserves a response, and I will in the name of charity break my own earlier established promise to leave you to rant to yourself.

    You write:

    "You seem to assume that Christianity is inherently plausible and deserves respect - like taking the time to have a basic knowledge of it before dismissing it - but Islam is not."

    I have stated no such thing; and your attempt to turn the tables on what I said just a short while ago about your own assumption regarding Islam, and how such an assumption on your part logically extends to any other product of a fervid prophetic imagination coupled to a cunning and self-serving cynicism, simply won't work: since I am not the one indignantly decrying a lack of appreciation for the predicate of a certain scripture.


    "Yet you give no indication how you would respond to the Gnu who dismissed Christianity as you do Islam."

    Say that again. Ok got it. You obviously have me confused with a Christian apologist somewhere; one who might even be said to be interested in rescuing Gnus from the pains of eternal hellfire. Have you seen me arguing for the truth of the Christian faith with Gnus?

    What you have seen most likely are my remarks regarding their redounding nominalist absurdities, and such. I know better than to argue with them. It's difficult enough to keep you or Don on the actual topic.


    "And plenty of Gnus act as dismissive and indignant towards Christianity as you do to Islam. "

    So what? What do I care? You can see how difficult it is to get even Don to stick to the Gospels texts when he wants to throw mud on the Christian faith and even things up.

    "So, please, let's hear your argument for why you don't need to have the basic knowledge, even that given in the wikis I posted, before you make your criticisms? And why this doesn't count for Gnus?"

    No wonder you refuse to quote. Along with simply adopting others' observations and arguments as if they were your own, you ignore item after item I have posted on the difficulty of getting a categorical answer out of Muslims as to what even counts as true or not; and how they know it.

    Now, you say that you are no expert, but you certainly talk as though there are piles of apposite, indubitable, expert answers, endorsed by all real Muslims to the questions I have asked Omer, right there for the taking. Well then boy, if so, you just go scoop them up and hold one out for all to see; all bright and shiny like for us to admire and wonder at.

    That sounds like a much better idea than my going off on a wild goose-link chase just because you think the activity will show respect for something which you presume merits Christian or secular respect on the basis of its as yet demonstrated historicity.


    Or you can go back to showing everyone how smart you are by mocking writers' use of English.

    Not our friend Omer. And not you either; despite the many opportunities of the kind all of us who work in real time present. Only the guy who was giving lessons to ostensibly ignorant English speakers on the critical grammatical and verbal distinctions and conceptual subtleties involved in understanding the Koran. That guy; a guy who purports to be a native English speaker and a scholar himself.

    And I assume the site has been up long enough for him to have actually reread what he wrote.

    After all, he's not arguing in a combox.

    Now you have a nice day, what's left of it. And after you are rested and have thought about it, you can come back to explain whether it is the Sunnis, or the Shia that are right, and why. Perhaps you can do at least that, on your own.

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  155. DNW,

    I'm not going to play games with you.

    You make claims like this:

    Along with simply adopting others' observations and arguments as if they were your own, you ignore item after item I have posted on the difficulty of getting a categorical answer out of Muslims as to what even counts as true or not; and how they know it.

    You have made many similar claims. You make them in similarly mocking and dismissive language (indeed, the language in this one is less scornful than some comments you have made). What can this claim mean here but that you think the Islamic sources are a hotch-potch of claims with little attempt to sort them out. Yet you show not the slightest knowledge of the debates and discussions on these sources and their meaning in the Islamic tradition. It is exactly like an atheist who lumps together all the earlier Christian sources - canonical, apocryphal, the writings of the Father, and of non-Christians - and dismisses them as contradictory and jumbled, without showing a basic knowledge of how Christians have thought about and discussed these sources.

    You act in such a way constantly, which is what originally drew my ire. You make arrogant, harsh attacks on Islam without basic knowledge or a real attempt to engage with the topic. This seems an exact parallel to Gnu tactics, though you now seem to imply you aren't a Christian, and perhaps don't see these tactics in the same light as many here do (at least when they directed against Christianity).

    There is also a clear parallel here between you and the left-liberals who defend Islam whilst not knowing enough to truly be able to say whether or not the Koran or tradition Islam do endorse violence.

    Look, I'm not entirely sure it is correct to say there is always inside knowledge needed to dismiss topcs of knowledge, but you don't seem interested in that discussion (despite its importance to your general attitude). But I would generally say if one is going to make harsh and sweeping critiques, full of smug mockery (if your attitude had been different I wouldn't have had the same problems with your posts), in areas which really call for inside knowledge, you should have that knowledge. It isn't really complicated or even overly controversial; it does get in the way of good old fashioned spouting off though.

    And after you are rested and have thought about it, you can come back to explain whether it is the Sunnis, or the Shia that are right, and why.

    And your argument is that because there are splits between Sunni and Shia (which knowledge, or at least the basics of the differences, you only just discovered by skimming a Wikipedia article), then we can dismiss any coherence in Islam? Presumably, we can do this in Christianity too? Given its differing sects. And let's not even get started on Hinduism or Buddhism, though I wait with baited breath to hear your withering critiques of the Pali Canon.

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  156. Apropos of nothing in particular.

    As for cruel punishments against non-believers, per the Wiki on death by burning it seems heretics, sodomites, lepers and Jews were sometimes the target of Christian "purifying fires". Beheading was usually reserved for executing traitorous nobles, since it was considered quick and painless, and was used both during and after the medieval period in England.

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  157. Greetings to you all,

    I took some time to read some of your comments. Thanks for your kind words laubadetriste.

    I am still working on a deadline that is due today so I don't have time to respond to many of the comments. On top of it, because of poor sleeping or of a cold going around, I may have a mild cold.

    But I want to share this video to give some flavor of one of many reasons why I believe the Qur'an is so special.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCPhzZm8pdg

    Peace to you all

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  158. @Omer,
    Salam brother,
    As a fellow Muslim, I would like to ask if you find any difficulty in reconciling the God of classical theism with the God of the Quran as for me(God forgive me for saying this) I think that sometimes the God in the Quran is described as too anthropomorphic in relation to the God of classical theism and focuses more on authority/power with threats in regards to worship rather than intellectual enlightenment. As someone who knows a great deal about classical theism, I figured you would be able to help me in this regard.

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  159. @anonymous,

    Salam brother, I did not have any serious difficulty but I did think about it in the past.

    The Qur'an never refers to God as a metaphor of any concrete entity like He is a mountain of strength, etc or even in similies by saying He is high like the sky, etc.

    I know you are speaking about anthropomorphic language but I take that as necessary so God is not made so abstract as to make us misleadingly think that we cannot have a relationship with God. So God says He made us with His hands to show the intimacy. A verse in one of two Surahs says that all will pass away except the Face of God. Now, literally, that would mean God's hands would pass away but His Face would not. Of course, that does not make sense, so that is intertextual reason that these are meant allegorically. Also, Verse 11 in Surah 42 says "Nothing is like His likeness." It is usually translated as Nothing is like Him. But there is a "mithla" and a "ka" and since they both don't need to be there, the verse is emphasizing that God is so above and beyond His creation that not only is nothing like Him, it is not even able to be like His likeness.

    In regards to worship, God also emphasizes his closeness to us like saying He is wherever we turn, He is closer to us than our carotid artery (translated as jugular vein but the word used is actually an artery according to the lexographer Ibn Ashuur.

    I think there is a great much of intellectual enlightenment in the Qur'an. You can find all the major proofs of God such as cosmological, teleological, moral, consciousness, and many others in the Qur'an.

    Thanks for your compliment but I am sure there is some I don't know since I did not get study it in grad school or so but just on my own.

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  160. @Omer,
    Greetings to you all,

    I took some time to read some of your comments. Thanks for your kind words laubadetriste.

    I am still working on a deadline that is due today so I don't have time to respond to many of the comments. On top of it, because of poor sleeping or of a cold going around, I may have a mild cold.

    But I want to share this video to give some flavor of one of many reasons why I believe the Qur'an is so special.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCPhzZm8pdg

    Peace to you all


    First of I would like to say that it is truly very sad and unfortunate for Dr. Jeffery Lang’s dad to not only treat his kids like that but also his mother like that. I personally know of many homes with similar stories and it is truly sad with full sympathies for Dr. Jeffery Lang.

    The first question that he brings up at the start of his talk is the problem of evil that is something we here are very familiar with and is not a new question and I think Christianity stands on very firm grounds to answer them.

    @19:43 “philosophical question of why God asked Adam to name”
    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen002.htm Genesis 2:19-20
    According to Dr. Jeffery God is teaching Adam to name but that is not the case in the Bible. Instead in the Bible God is actually seeing what Adam is going to name them and keeping them those names. This is a clear example of God wanting man to rationally think independently from Him. What Dr.Jeffery has missed here is that these verses are actually the beginning of science i.e. taxonomy and it seems that God is facilitating that (contrary to popular new atheist literature).

    @19:53 “read verses very carefully” I totally agree with him there but that is also true for not only the Quran but also every other holy book out there including the Bible.

    Language the great intellectual gift (to learn things) is important no doubt. It is important to learn things and reason but an even more important thing to have is wisdom. That has a bigger importance in the Bible than just intellect and reason as a matter of fact there is a whole book called Wisdom in the Bible.
    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/wis001.htm

    He talks about Arrogance/Pride (@29:58) we can see that there is a great significance of what these mean in a persons life in the Bible too a little taste of that can be found here
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm

    @33:54: “God threatened by tree and place a sword to protect the tree” nothing like that
    Genesis 2:15
    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen002.htm

    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen003.htm
    The sword actually comes later to banish Adam from the garden not the tree see Genesis 3:24

    @35:20 “rage violence and jealousy” see Genesis chapter 3
    Consequences of disobedience is very important, but if you read Genesis chap 3 there is no thing as rage, violence or jealousy there. Yes you can read into it some sort of rage but giving a punishment for something does not necessarily mean that you are filled with rage. If there were no consequences the importance of doing something is lessened. ...

    continued...

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  161. @36:56 Dr. Jeff says that in the Quran it seems to be that “This is not a diety losing it” but the way I see it is that it seems to be summary of the Genesis story which would allow for more flexibility to be read into the passages.

    @38:08 - 38:30 “the greatest sin in human history and it is called a slip” Again reducing the sin to something insignificant would just mean that “Allah” does not taken sin seriously. That is totally opposite of the Holy God of the Bible who takes all of sin seriously irrespective of its size. There are consequences of our choices and that is what we see not only in the Genesis story but also in our everyday life.

    @42:59 I do not see why it should be read into the Genesis story God’s rage and it is clear shown that he was not angry if you read Genesis 3:21 where the Lord builds them garments.

    Reasoning, critical thinking and wisdom is emphasized in the Bible through out. The whole book of Proverbs can be given as an example here with many many verses talking about it. see Pr 14:15, Pr 19:2. Acts 17:11, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, 1:John 4:1 and many many more that we can quote.

    @48:18 - 51:15 Again just stating the number of times certain things have been said. That can be done exactly the same way with the Bible. It does not prove anything.

    @53:56-onwards, If Dr. Jeffery is talking about Christianity, where being saved from suffering, is part of it then he could not be more wrong. That is a total misconception. As a matter of fact Christ suffering on the cross gives the sense that God is not far from our suffering. Also salvation has nothing to do with suffering in the Christian faith. Salvation is from sin not from suffering.

    @54:36 Suffering seen as not a good thing in Christianity is incorrect. As a matter of fact suffering has a much more deeper meaning. All the apostles suffered willingly for their faith but Christ himself suffered willingly. It is very much part and parcel of the Christian faith and not something that you avoid, transcend and be saved from.

    I have not had time to see after that but I will comment about the other half later. My whole purpose is that all Dr. Jeffery (apart from the fact he got things wrong about the Bible) has shown is not unique to the Quran. You can find it in the Bible as well. So going back to the original point why is it that the Quran is a miracle. Yes it is an excellent book no doubt about it but what makes it so special?

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  162. Seems like my first post got caught in the spam filter, the above is a continuation of it

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  163. Glenn,

    "But the OT law in Lev. 21:10 does not afford the adulterer an opportunity to escape the penalty prescribed for adultery by repenting (or by any other means), and Bahnsen clearly has stated that the adulterer should be afforded the opportunity to repent."

    Bahnsen doesn't soften Leviticus 20:10. It wouldn't apply, for example, to a married man and an unmarried woman. Regardless, the concept of repentance is not new with the NT. Jeremiah 31:19 -- "After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth."

    Psalm 51 is about repentance. Ezekiel 18:21-22 implies genuine repentance can save one's skin.

    So Bahnsen doesn't provide an opportunity for escaping the penalties for adultery that weren't there already -- except, possibly, excommunication. But that's new anyway since his church as an institution is new. Bahnsen doesn't claim professions of repentance do away with all penalties. That would make his theonomy absurd. If a murderer repents, great. He still has to accept the ultimate penalty. Same with adultery. Nevertheless, a general penalty for adultery in the OT is not so easy to pin down. Otherwise, what's the point in it discussing divorce in regard to fornication and other sex combinations? Execution would seem to solve the problem.

    Regarding the story at the top of John 8, there's doubt about this being genuine. Nevertheless, Bahnsen does mention it in Theonomy in Christian Ethics, pp.231-32:

    “[E]ven if this passage be accounted as part of the infallible autograph of John’s gospel, rather than weakening the present thesis, it strongly confirms it! Christ demands that the very details of the Mosaic law be followed in John 8:7. The Pharisees who brought the adulteress before Jesus were more concerned with trapping Jesus in a statutory dilemma than in the sanctity of God’s moral law; they intended to trap Him between upholding the Older Testamental law and submitting to Roman law which reserved for itself the sole right to inflict the death penalty. However, the scribes were the ones who ended up being caught by their own woeful ignorance of God’s law. They came to test Jesus, but as elsewhere, they failed to know the law." ..."John 7:53-8:11, even if authentic, does not support the relaxing of the details of God’s law; it harmonizes with Christ’s words in Matthew 5:17 f. to the effect that every jot and tittle of God’s law remain valid until the end of the world.”

    I would tend to agree with you that there's more to it than that. But I'm not arguing Bahnsen is correct in his exegesis. Nothing I've read of his suggests he would replace OT law with some sort of modern, relaxed standard. Above you quoted him: "My intention was to uphold the principle of Covenant Theology, which assumes continuity between the Old and New Testaments unless scripture teaches otherwise (e.g., infant baptism)." That's what I've been saying. He assumes continuity. His concept of "new law" looks plenty like "old law" and that's his intent.

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  164. @OceanD,

    Thanks for viewing the video.

    My cold has worsened.

    But I will get back as soon as I could.

    I can't think of all the miracles...here is one miracle that the Qur'an mentions in Surah 74, verses 30-31 as being a miracle that gives certainty, adds faith, and removes doubt.

    This link is a very small list of the miracles of 19 in the Qur'an. Again, the list is too big for me to compile.

    http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html

    Even the Prophet did not know what the Qur'an meant about the miracle but now we know because it is easier to do computation with computers.

    The Prophet did not even have paper.

    Peace

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  165. @Omer,

    You are a nice guy (hope you feel better, have some chicken soup) but I wanted to say that please do not rely on mathematics to find patterns in the Quran because this does not go well at all for any proof of a miracle. You can do the same thing with the Bible and find patterns. Not only that, you can do the same thing with any decent sized book. I bet someone could do that with Dr.Feser's books.

    On that note, Dr. Feser, I know you are busy but please release my first post. Thanks.

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  166. @Ocean D,

    Hello and again and peace and blessings of God for you.

    I don't know when I will get time to comment again...it may be a few days since I have other deadlines that I am behind on.

    So I don't want to keep you waiting....

    1. Regarding #19, there are many resources...it may be convenient to just to see these two youtubes as a beginning....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWRkYrjBiKw

    he does not finish it but adds to it here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWRkYrjBiKw

    2. Another miracle is that the almost the entire Qur'an is in rhyme.

    This is a miracle because the Qur'an claims that it is word for word from God.

    This has clear implications.

    As the Qur'an says in Surah 29 "And you did not recite before it any scripture, nor did you inscribe one with your right hand. Otherwise the falsifiers would have had [cause for] doubt."

    All the Prophet's family and his almost all of his relatives trusted him. He was known as Sadiq Al-Ameen (The truthful and the trustworthy) before his ministry by God through the Angel Gabriel.

    He did not live alone....he had a large family in a very tiny dwelling....he shared almost the large part of his wealth to the poor for which his wives complained as indicated in the Qur'an.

    I say this to point out if the Prophet was busy composing the Qur'an to be in rhyme, then family members, relatives, followers, etc. would have found out very early and certainly nearly all of them would have found out within these 23 years because the revelations kept coming throughout the 20 or so years.

    So when the revelations came, the Prophet would just recite and it had to be correct the very first time, and the scribes would write it down and memorize.

    Again, he could not backtrack and edit the Qur'an over time.

    We all know that it is virtually impossible for us to create a masterpiece at one go....would not we need to edit it not just once or twice but many, many times? And was this not be the same for even the great authors throughout history?

    On top of this, I don't know anyone who when they speak, they end in rhymes.

    The Prophet could not make it up as he spoke because again numerous people would have detected that he was fabricating it and if they though he was fabricating it, they would not have carried out sacrifices day after day, year after year risking their and their families lives.

    But it is impossible for him (peace be upon him) to have made it up numerous times over the 20 years.

    On top of the rhyme, there is the rhythm that is the masterpiece of all Arabic (the rhyme in the Qur'an is the masterpiece of all Arabic also).

    I will speak about the rhythm later as I need to review it.

    It was this linguistic miracle of the Qur'an...beautiful ethical teachings couched in the most beautiful rhythm and rhyme and convinced the Prophet's people who historians say were very skilled at the arts of language and poetry to know that this can not be from a human, it has to be from who the book claims it is from...from God Almighty.

    Anyhow, above are a couple of miracles.

    Peace to you

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  167. DJ,

    ...Leviticus 20:10...wouldn't apply, for example, to a married man and an unmarried woman.

    Correction acknowledged.

    Regardless, the concept of repentance is not new with the NT.

    I neither said nor intimated that the concept of repentance is new with the NT, only that repentance is not given by Lev. 2[0]:10 as a means for escaping the penalty prescribed.

    Above you quoted [Bahnsen]: "My intention was to uphold the principle of Covenant Theology, which assumes continuity between the Old and New Testaments unless scripture teaches otherwise (e.g., infant baptism)." That's what I've been saying. He assumes continuity.

    Speaking on Covenant Theology, Bahnsen had, amongst other things, these three things to say regarding that continuity (see here):

    1. "The Old Covenant looked ahead to Christ and His work (by foreshadow and prophecy), while the New Covenant looks back to Christ and His work, proclaiming the gospel that God's saving kingdom has now arrived. These are, then, but one underlying covenant under differing administrations."

    2. "According to Covenant theology, salvation has never been by works, even hypothetically; it has always been proclaimed on the basis of God's grace. And this grace has always called for the response of faithful obedience on the part of God's people -- in both of Old and New Testaments."

    3. "Christianity as understood by covenant theology stands for the central and unchanging message of salvation by grace alone. God saves us by way of covenant -- by His free promise and merciful relationship initiated by Him without consideration of any merit within us."

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  168. @OceanD: "You are a nice guy (hope you feel better, have some chicken soup) but I wanted to say that please do not rely on mathematics to find patterns in the Quran because this does not go well at all for any proof of a miracle. You can do the same thing with the Bible and find patterns. Not only that, you can do the same thing with any decent sized book. I bet someone could do that with Dr. Feser's books."

    A lesser-known moment in the history of humor: *Newsweek*, June 9, 1997: Michael Drosnin, author of *The Bible Code*, in which "An Israeli mathematician has discovered a hidden code in the Bible that appears to reveal the details of events that took place thousands of years after the Bible was written," challenges his critics by saying, "When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in *Moby Dick*, I'll believe them." His critics quickly find messages in *Moby Dick* about the assassinations of Indira Gandhi, Rene Moawad, Leon Trotsky, Martin Luther King, Engelbert Dollfuss, John F. Kennedy, Abraham Lincoln, and Yitzhak Rabin...

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  169. @Omer,
    On top of this, I don't know anyone who when they speak, they end in rhymes.

    Since the decline of the bardic tradition that is to be expected. From the Wiki on bard: "Irish bards formed a professional hereditary caste of highly trained, learned poets. The bards were steeped in the history and traditions of clan and country, as well as in the technical requirements of a verse technique that was syllabic and used assonance, half rhyme and alliteration, among other conventions. As officials of the court of king or chieftain, they performed a number of official roles. They were chroniclers and satirists whose job it was to praise their employers and damn those who crossed them. It was believed that a well-aimed bardic satire, glam dicenn, could raise boils on the face of its target."

    To compose something like the Quran without any prior training in technique would indeed be highly unusual, but as seen in autistic savants there are some aspects of human intelligence that can be exceptional without any training.

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  170. laubadetriste,

    I remember reading that book. I also recollect that it contained some very clever reasoning, so it's surprising that Mr. Drosin should have challenged his critics in such a sloppy manner. Had he maintained his standards for clever reasoning, he might have challenged his critics by saying something like, "When my critics find a message about the assassination of Rene Moawad, Leon Trotsky, Engelbert Dollfuss or John F. Kennedy encrypted in Gadsby, then I'll believe them."

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  171. @Ocean D,

    Thank you for your compliments and suggestions with chicken soup. I am drinking lot of water and I will try to sleep more to get more rest which will help.

    I agree that if you look at anything long enough, you will find patterns in it....if you do try to find a thousand different patterns and you find one that is 1/1000 as possible, then it means nothing since you have been fishing for it and some patterns will arise by chance.

    The Qur'an's #19 challenge is not like the Bible Code.

    For one, people have looked for multiples of 19 and they did not find it in other books.

    Also, the Qur'an itself specifies this particular pattern...it is not based on someone's fishing for patterns...

    "Over it are nineteen" (Surah 74, verse 30)

    "And We have not made the keepers of the Fire except angels. And We have not made their number except as a trial for those who disbelieve - that those who were given the Scripture will be convinced and those who have believed will increase in faith and those who were given the Scripture and the believers will not doubt and that those in whose hearts is hypocrisy and the disbelievers will say, "What does Allah intend by this as an example?" Thus does Allah leave astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows the soldiers of your Lord except Him. And mention of the Fire is not but a reminder to humanity." (Surah 74, verse 31)

    Interestingly the next verses say,

    "No! By the moon

    And [by] the night when it departs

    And [by] the morning when it brightens,

    Indeed, this is one of the greatest (signs)." (Surah 74, verses 32-35)

    It is very interesting, as an oath is made on the moon and the sun (morning brightness) for this issue....and the sun and moon cycles coincide every 19 years.

    The Metonic cycle is not the main part...the main issue if the level of probability of this in the Qur'an for the 19 pattern is difficult to compute since it a such a super tiny probability of occurring by chance....

    We are speaking of mind boggling low probabilities for it to occur by chance.

    This link gives a glimpse of the probability of such a tiny portion....

    http://www.quranmiracles.com/category/miracle-of-19/

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  172. @Omer: "The Qur'an's #19 challenge is not like the Bible Code. / For one, people have looked for multiples of 19 and they did not find it in other books."

    They didn't look too hard, I guess.

    "It is well known that Stephen King started writing his Dark Tower series at the age of 19. It may be this that led him to the idea of choosing 19 to be of such importance in the books.":

    "Instances in the Dark Tower Series:

    Alice is told to tell Nort nineteen to find out what is on the other side after death. When Jake Chambers visits Calvin Tower's bookstore, The Manhattan Restaurant of the Mind, there are 19 books on the table when Jake buys 2 from it. One of the books Jake buys is Charlie the Choo-Choo and is written by a Beryl Evans when he buys it. Later, it changes to Claudia y Inez Bachman, which totals 19 letters. This is even more interesting when the fictional Stephen King says that Claudia Inez Bachman was the 'wife' of his pseudonym, Richard Bachman. However, he states that he did not add the y. Ka must have added the y to make the total 19 and to signify the Keystone World. The character Stephen King lives in the nineteenth house on Turtleback Lane. Charles Champignon became a full gunslinger at the age of nineteen. There are only nineteen oil derricks at Citgo work. There are 19 steps between each door inside the Dark Tower. Jamie Jaffords was nineteen when he made a stand against the Wolves of Thunderclap. Castle Discordia has 595 doors to different whens and wheres. 5+9+5 totals 19. The North Central Positronics device called Daria is run with a code called Directive 19 which stops it giving certain information to the user. Overriding the commands causes the device to stop working.

    [Also the Rolling Stones song '19th Nervous Breakdown' is featured.]

    Examples in other King works:

    11/22/63: Jake Epping sees a Plymouth Fury the license plate number is 90-811 which adds up to 19. His license plate also adds up to 19, 23383IY. The for rent sign in New Orleans says to call MU3-4192 and that adds to 19. The Dunnings live at 379 Kossuth St. in Derry. This address adds up to 19. While teaching Jake how to play cribbage, Andy Cullum refers to a hand that he calls "mystic nineteen".

    The Shining: Wendy counts 19 stairs. Room 217 (2+17=19).

    Duma Key: Pam's email is pamorama667 (6+6+7=19). The Delta flight his daughter takes home is number 559 (5+5+9=19). Edgar's email is EFree19. The digits of Pam's hotel room also add to 19.

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  173. Under the Dome: Colonel James Cox reports that the Dome hit the ground at 11:44 (11+4+4=19). The radio station's security code, found with the spare key, is 1693 (1+6+9+3=19).

    The Tommyknockers: King started writing The Tommyknockers on August 19th 1982 and finished on May 19th, 1987 (cited on the last page of the book).

    The Dead Zone: The first time Johnny Smith predicts the wheel of fortune will land on a number through premonition, the number is 19. Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption (a novella from Different Seasons). The rockhammer that Andy uses to escape wears down and he needs a new one from Red. It takes 19 years for this to happen. It's also mentioned that the original hole Andy escapes from was made in 19 years.

    Chris from The Body graduates 19th in his class in high school.

    Christine: The climax of the story takes place on January 19.

    Doctor Sleep: A character is revealed to have died on 19 January 1999.

    Revival: Charles Daniel Jacobs' name is 19 letters long (7+6+6=19).

    Mr. Mercedes: Bill Hodge's screen name given to him from the Mercedes Killer is kermitfrog19. Similarly, Olivia Trelawey's screen name from the Mercedes Killer ended in 19.

    Cell: The numbers 6904 in the tail number (LN6409B) on the plane that crashes in Chapter 1 add up to 19. Also, L = 12, N = 14 = 5, B = 2 --- 12 + 5 + 2 = 19."

    Fun fact: the Quranic number 19 poppycock has an entire book written against it by Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, holder of a BA in Islamic studies in Madeenah, and an MA in Islamic Theology in Riyadh, and a PhD in Islamic Theology from the University of Wales.

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  174. That last link was supposed to be this one.

    But I am missing the forest for the trees. (Can you blame me? There are nineteen of them!) The real point is, who takes *any* numerical mumbo-jumbo seriously? I feel like I'm on one of those prank shows, and if I just turn around quickly enough, I'll catch a cameraman duck around a corner, and Omer will own up to being an actor planted in disguise...

    "[T]here are fashions in numbers too. The Middle Ages took a fancy to some familiar number like seven; and because it was an odd number, and the world was made in seven days, and there are seven stars in Charles's Wain, and for a dozen other reasons, they were ready to believe anything that had a seven or a seven times seven in it. Seven deadly sins, seven swords of sorrow in the heart of the Virgin, seven champions of Christendom, seemed obvious and reasonable things to believe in simply because they were seven. To us, on the contrary, the number seven is the stamp of superstition. We will believe in nothing less than millions. A medieval doctor gained his patient's confidence by telling him that his vitals were being devoured by seven worms. Such a diagnosis would ruin a modern physician. The modern physician tells his patient that he is ill because every drop of his blood is swarming with a million microbes; and the patient believes him abjectly and instantly. Had a bishop told William the Conqueror that the sun was seventy-seven miles distant from the earth, William would have believed him not only out of respect for the Church, but because he would have felt that seventy-seven miles was the proper distance. The Kaiser, knowing just as little about it as the Conqueror, would send that bishop to an asylum. Yet he (I presume) unhesitatingly accepts the estimate of ninety-two and nine-tenths millions of miles, or whatever the latest big figure may be."--Shaw, Preface to *Androcles and the Lion*

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  175. The real point is, who takes *any* numerical mumbo-jumbo seriously?

    Pythagoras? ;)

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  176. @Jeremy Taylor:

    Heh. :)

    Well, yes, you got me there.

    But *that* Pythagoras was the one who added:

    "Abstain from beans. Eat only the flesh of animals that may be sacrificed. Do not step over the beam of a balance. On rising, straighten the bedclothes and smooth out the place where you lay. Spit on your hair clippings and nail parings. Destroy the marks of a pot in the ashes. Do not piss towards the sun. Do not use a pine-torch to wipe a chair clean. Do not look in a mirror by lamplight. On a journey do not turn around at the border, for the Furies are following you. Do not make a detour on your way to the temple, for the god should not come second. Do not help a person to unload, only to load up. Do not dip your hand into holy water. Do not kill a louse in the temple. Do not stir the fire with a knife. One should not have children by a woman who wears gold jewellery. One should put on the right shoe first, but when washing do the left foot first. One should not pass by where an ass is lying."

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  177. @laubedriste


    "It is well known that Stephen King started writing his Dark Tower series at the age of 19. It may be this that led him to the idea of choosing 19 to be of such importance in the books.":

    Of course, there will be #19 in his plot, etc. since he chose 19.

    Any of us can write a book with patterns of 19 or any number if we set out to do it.

    1. Prophet Muhammad did not set out to do it. He did not even know about the code.

    2. Even if he hypothetically set out to do it, the level of patterns of 19 are impossible for him to have integrated.

    He did not even have paper. Much less an excel spreadsheet or word processors to help him keep adjusting verses and so on.

    Again, it is easy to forget since we don't experience it. whenever Prophet Muhammad conveyed a revelation to his companions, it was done every time orally. He had only one chance to get it right. If he backtracked and tried to adjust it, it wold have been impossible not to detect that he was fabricating it.

    People did not have fancy technology in the past but for the most part they were as good as us in detecting liars.

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  178. Regarding features of the Qur'an, one that may particulalry interest people who value logic and philosophy is the syllogisms in the Qur'an.

    Professor Rosaylind Ward Gynne wrote a book called Logic, Rhetoric, and Legal Reasoning in the Qur'an: God's Arguments

    She writes "with material from Najmuddin Al-Tufi and my own analyses of additional Quranic verses, I was able to identify examples of ten of the nineteen valid moods of the categorical syllogism and leave open the possibility that all nineteen may be found within the sacred text."

    (The nineteen mentioned above is not meant to be related to the miracle of the patterns of nineteen all over the Quranic text)

    Besides surprisingly finding all these types of syllogisms in a text that came out of Arabia, this book shows how remarkable the Qur'an is in its approach to not just giving statements but couching it in evidence and reasoning and logic.

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  179. It's comical too witness a thomist like Edward turn into a thorough historian and expert of Islam. Did anyone wonder why Ed. chose to discuss McCarthy's views on Islam instead of someone who DOES not 'happen' to be a right wing Catholic conservative. Has anyone wondered if Mc or Ed. have read the classical sources that have long ago answered their falsification challenge. I suppose they have not because they would have to learn Arabic first and go through a lifetime of training before they can swing their sophisticated interpretations --"the special link between Islam and violence" -- right at the face of their cheerleaders. Take a brief look at the enthusiastic response (often confirming the causal link) of his readers.
    Perhaps it would be a good exercise for Ed. and Mc. to answer the falsification challenge as it pertains to Western Catholicism (esp. American) and the root of Racism and slavery.
    An interesting piece by K.Giberson on the Huffington post called "The Biblical Roots of Racism." Is there a special link ? I leave it to the expert to answer it.

    There is not doubt that Ed. excels in philosophical discussions pertaining to Thomism and some salient problems in contemporary Western philosophy. When he starts speaking about Islam and other traditions, it is a sophisticated rhetoric (not bigotry) with a philosophical dress. I bet we all do it when we start speaking from an absolutist point of reference (Thomist, Vedantic, Islamic, Communist...).

    It is great time for people to stop worshiping their egos and mistaken that for God. How about a causal link here.


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  180. @Omer: "Any of us can write a book with patterns of 19 or any number if we set out to do it."

    You are so right. And by parallel reasoning, any of us could make a book fit patterns of 19 or any other number...

    ...by adding letters, deleting letters, counting letters inconsistently, mistranslating words, and misusing manuscripts...

    ...which does indeed appear to be exactly what people did with the Qur'an...

    ...which shouldn't be surprising, as people did that too with the Bible, Plato, and Virgil, among others.

    (Anybody else remember the part in the *Confessions* when Augustine talks about divination via the *Aeneid*?)

    "Again, it is easy to forget since we don't experience it. whenever Prophet Muhammad conveyed a revelation to his companions, it was done every time orally."

    Speaking of which:

    "...among the peculiarities of the Qur’aanic script existing to this day are Alifs, Yaas and Waaws written but not read as well as some which are read but not written. For example, the pronounced Alif in the word Kitaab is sometimes written [Arabic] and at other times not. Similarly the unpronounced Alif in the phrase 'Bismi' is written in some cases and not in others. Thus, in the opening statement of the Qur’aan, Bismilaahi-Rahmaani-Raheem (In the name of Allah, the Beneficient, The Merciful), there are 3 deleted Alifs, one which is unpronounced in the phrase [Arabic] and the other two pronounced in the words [Arabic] and [Arabic], which make the actual total of letters 22 and not 19. The same may be said of most of the other 'facts' resulting from letter counts, all of whose totals would become indivisible by 19 if their deleted Alifs were counted."--*The Quran's Numerical Miracle*, ch. 2

    "Prophet Muhammad did not set out to do it. He did not even know about the code."

    Well of course not. It isn't there.

    "Also, the Qur'an itself specifies this particular pattern...it is not based on someone's fishing for patterns... / 'Over it are nineteen' (Surah 74, verse 30)"

    "The Qur’an uses the attached feminine pronoun haa and thus could not possibly refer back to verse 25 which along with verse 24 says, 'Then he said, "This is only magic from of old; This is nothing but the word of a mortal!"' Even if [you] tried to claim that 'it' refers to the Qur’an which is described in verse 24 by the disbeliever as man made, it would not work because the word Qur’an is masculine and the demonstrative pronoun 'this' used to refer to the Qur’an is haathaa which is also masculine. The feminine pronoun haa, in fact, refers to the closest preceding feminine noun saqar (Hellfire) mentioned in verses 26-7 and described by two feminine verbs in verse 28 tathar and tubqee and a feminine adjective in verse 29 lawwaahah."--QNM, ch. 1

    "the main issue if the level of probability of this in the Qur'an for the 19 pattern is difficult to compute since it a such a super tiny probability of occurring by chance."

    Sure. "Super tiny probability" is a feature of hogwash.

    "People did not have fancy technology in the past but for the most part they were as good as us in detecting liars."

    Which is to say, not very good.

    But fortunately, we needn't blame this one on Muhammad.

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  181. @mirror: "Did anyone wonder why Ed. chose to discuss McCarthy's views on Islam instead of someone who DOES not 'happen' to be a right wing Catholic conservative."

    Yes, perhaps Dr. Feser should have discussed the views on Islam of a non-Catholic, non-conservative, non-right wing person--like, say, Christopher Hitchens or Bruce Bawer or Voltaire...

    Wait, no... they would have agreed with some of what McCarthy said...

    It's almost as if... why, it's almost as if the truth or falsehood of what someone thinks is separate from who they are!

    But that would mean... that would mean we should investigate the thought and not just assume it is false because of who holds it...

    How much extra work that is!

    "Has anyone wondered if Mc or Ed. have read the classical sources that have long ago answered their falsification challenge."

    The *classical* sources from *long ago* that answered the *falsificationist* challenge. Those time-travelling sources from 600-1200 years ago that answered the challenge having its roots in the philosophy of 300 years ago and reaching its apogee in the 1950s. I'm gonna guess that no one else wondered that.

    "I suppose they have not because they would have to learn Arabic first and go through a lifetime of training before they can swing their sophisticated interpretations --'the special link between Islam and violence' -- right at the face of their cheerleaders."

    Always fun when this double-standard comes up. You will never hear that someone must learn Arabic and go through a lifetime of training before they can claim that there is *no* special link.

    "An interesting piece by K.Giberson on the Huffington post called 'The Biblical Roots of Racism.' Is there a special link ? I leave it to the expert to answer it."

    No you don't. :) You leave it to innuendo and suggestion--like you did just there.

    "When he starts speaking about Islam and other traditions, it is a sophisticated rhetoric (not bigotry) with a philosophical dress."

    I note that he gave reasons, whereas you did not. There are terms in philosophy used to distinguish those two approaches. Give me a moment, they'll come to me...

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  182. More fun with fake Quranic math:

    "The first verses of the Qur'an to be revealed are the first five verses of Sura 96 and the total number of words in these verses is 19."--http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html

    "As we have seen, the first five verses consist of 19 words. The [Arabic] is a letter, not a word. Likewise, letters [Arabic] are not included in the calculation either."--same page, just a little further down. No sense including what would put us over 19, amirite?

    "[T]o obtain these multiples, Rashad Khalifa has followed a haphazard system of word identification that totally contradicts both classical and modern rules of Arabic grammar and lexography. For example, he counts the relative pronoun "allathee: which" as a single word in example (i) word 13 and the negative particle "lam:not" as a single word while elsewhere counting maa lam together as one word in example (i) "word" 18 when "maa"is also a relative pronoun equivalent to allathee. He also counts the conjunction "wa: and" as a part of the word following it even though it is a separate word. In example (iii), according to Dr. Khalifa, "word" 3 is made up of the conjunction wa, the relative pronoun "maa" and the verb "yasturoon". Prepositions like "fee: in" in example (ii) word 9, "‘alaa: on" and "min: from" in example (i) word 8 are all counted as separate words, while the preposition "bi" meaning "in, on, at, and with" is not counted as a separate word. Instead it is counted as a part of the word to which it is joined as in example (i) "word" 2. The same can be said of possessive pronouns like "ka" meaning "your". Dr. Khalifa does not count them as words. For example, "word" 11 in example (i) is actually composed of the conjunction
    "wa", the noun "rabb" and the possessive pronoun "ka" (i.e., wa rabbuka means "and your Lord"). Hence, when the correct method of identifying words is employed, not a single one of Dr. Khalifa’s five major "facts" mentioned above remains a multiple 19."--QNM, ch. 6

    But again I'm missing the forest for the trees. People use fake math on the Bible, too. (And the Great Pyramid of Giza--

    --"Twice the perimeter of the bottom of the granite coffer times 10^8 is the sun’s mean radius. [270.45378502 Pyramid Inches* 10^8 = 427,316 miles]. The height of the pyramid times 10**9 = Avg. distance to the sun. {5813.2355653 * 10**9 * (1 mi / 63291.58 PI) = 91,848,500 mi} Mean Distance to the Sun: Half of the length of the diagonal of the base times 10**6 = average distance to the sun Mean Distance to Sun: The height of the pyramid times 10**9 represents the mean radius of the earth’s orbit around the sun or Astronomical Unit. { 5813.235565376 pyramid inches x 10**9 = 91,848,816.9 miles} Mean Distance to Moon: ] The length of the Jubilee passage times 7 times 10**7 is the mean distance to the moon. {215.973053 PI * 7 * 10**7 =1.5118e10 PI = 238,865 miles } [...] The weight of the pyramid is estimated at 5,955,000 tons. Multiplied by 10^8 gives a reasonable estimate of the earth’s mass. With the mantle in place, the Great Pyramid could be seen from the mountains in Israel and probably the moon as well (citation needed). The sacred cubit times 10**7 = polar radius of the earth (distance from North Pole to Earth’s center) {25 PI * 10**7 * (1.001081 in / 1 PI) * (1 ft / 12 in) * (1 mi/ 5280 ft) = 3950 miles } The curvature designed into the faces of the pyramid exactly matches the radius of the earth."--

    --in fact, anything you can be gullible about, you can be gullible about mathematically.)

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  183. @ laubadetriste,


    It's interesting how the moment I ceased commenting on the prophetic product, and the heads of the faithful apologists were allowed to cool, the answers to all those critical questions regarding the Islamic canon, came cascading out, and all answers were laid at the feet of the sincerely inquiring.

    Well, sort of. Well, no, actually. None of the questions I had asked regarding the historicity of the Koran's receipt were answered. Nor was there any explanation as to which hadiths are to be taken as, if you will pardon the expression, as Gospel, and which are taken with a grain of salt, as you know, still kinda sacred and meaningful, or not.

    But we have been treated to a lesson in numerology miracles, and as you have stated, "divination" by text.

    No wonder Jeremy was so perturbed with me. I had no idea of the profundity underlying these demonstrations of the truths of Islam. Jeremy might have been wrong when he stated that I had never heard of the difference between the Shia and the Sunnis (and how could anyone not who remembered Desert Storm?) but Jeremy was certainly quite right to suggest that I in no way fully appreciated the - shall we say, the less than public - method and rationale involved in demonstrating the bona fides of the Koran.

    Yes, "Ninteen ... nineteen!" he cried, "Don't you see the perfection in this? The meaning? The proof? Ninteen! It's miraculous"

    Or was it "eleven" ...

    http://alphanuma.com/calculators/

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  184. laubadetriste said...

    More fun with fake Quranic math:

    "The first verses of the Qur'an to be revealed are the first five verses of Sura 96 and the total number of words in these verses is 19."--http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html"




    Shame! Shame on you for making fun of what you clearly do not understand. Or if you understand it, fail to appreciate the beauty of. Or is it, of which you fail the beauty to appreciate ...

    Anyway, don't you know that millions of people have believed this? Or at least millions of people believed what was said to them by people who believed this. How dare you? Cordoba! Granada! Abdu Rashid bin Kindle-what's-his-name, the great philosopher who copied down all the stuff Aristotle wrote! Or Plato, or someone. And what about the Taj Mahal, eh smart guy? Did you know that if you squared the cube of the volume of the dome, - I think it has a dome though I don't claim to be expert in this and cannot read Arabic myself - multiplied it by zero, and then added 19, the number comes out as 19?

    What can you say to that, but "I too believe!"?

    Please, save your arrogance for the Freethought blogs and all of your like-minded pals over there. We are feeling and sensitive types here and if you keep this up it is you will feel the flame of our disdain and ire.

    Any more questions?

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  185. And yes I did leave the word "who" out in the last sentence of my last comment. But, if you just pretend I am writing in Arabic; it won't make any difference.

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  186. @DNW: "It's interesting how the moment I ceased commenting on the prophetic product, and the heads of the faithful apologists were allowed to cool, the answers to all those critical questions regarding the Islamic canon, came cascading out, and all answers were laid at the feet of the sincerely inquiring. / Well, sort of. Well, no, actually. None of the questions I had asked regarding the historicity of the Koran's receipt were answered. Nor was there any explanation as to which hadiths are to be taken as, if you will pardon the expression, as Gospel, and which are taken with a grain of salt, as you know, still kinda sacred and meaningful, or not."

    The conversation did not go that way, no. But to be fair, Jeremy's earlier filtered comments finally popped up, and they mention some serious scholarship.

    "Yes, "Ninteen ... nineteen!" he cried, "Don't you see the perfection in this? The meaning? The proof? Ninteen! It's miraculous" / Or was it "eleven" ... /http://alphanuma.com/calculators/"

    "As was mentioned in the introduction, numerology has no place in Islam. It was neither sanctioned by the Qur’an nor by the Prophet Muhammad (ρ) and was opposed by the Companions of the Prophet(ρ) as well as the early scholars. The great 14th century C.E. scholar Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani said, '(Numerology) is completely false and should not be relied on, for it has been accurately reported that (the companion of the Prophet (ρ) Ibn ‘Abbas used to forbid the Abjad and consider it a form of Magic, which is quite reasonable, as it has no basis in the Shari‘ah (Islamic Law).'"--QNM, ch.9

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  187. @laubadetriste

    "You are so right. And by parallel reasoning, any of us could make a book fit patterns of 19 or any other number..."

    No, that is completely false.

    I studied advanced statistics in graduate school. And I use it at work.

    Yes, we could indeed eventually find patterns in a book. But we cannot make it fit natural patterns that is already defined apriori. If there is no number given, then with creativity and with fishing, we can find patterns.

    However, that is precisely not what is going on with the Qur'an.

    The Qur'an specifically mentions 19 and then specifically mentions that this number will give certainty, add faith, and remove doubts.

    The patterns are natural...for example, it is natural to focus on the opening of every surah, In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.

    It is natural to focus on the abbreviated letters that begin 29 of the surahs like surah 2. No one understand the purpose of these abbreviations. We now know the #19 patterns fit with this abbreviations in their respective surahs.

    It is natural to focus on the first set of verses revealed or the first and last surah revealed, etc. There are numerous natural ways that when we analyze a lot of these natural ways, then it is revealed that it is divisible by 19 which is a very unlikely number to be divisible by.

    Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not know about the code because he did not have a computer to analyze the Qur'an and so on. No one knew until we had computers. The scholars did not know how to interpret these verses. No one in the 7th or 10th or 15th or even 19th century could have anticipated computers with the computational speed that we are blessed with today.

    Yes, Rashad Khalifa made exaggerations. He even thought and claimed he was a new prophet of God. The Qur'an says that the Prophet Muhammad is the last prophet. Thus Khalifa had a problem with that. So he said he was a messenger and not specifically a prophet but that was of course is not acceptable because it is trying to make a distinction when there is no real difference. He and his team got carried away and they should have consulted expert statisticians for each and every method they were using.

    Perhaps, you missed the brief youtube I had sent before...Shabir Ally, Phd in theology explains about Khalifa's exaggerations. But even removing the exaggerations, it is still an overwhelming miracle that adds certainty, adds faith, and removes doubts.

    I provide them again in case you missed them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWRkYrjBiKw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWRkYrjBiKw

    Again, you can try as much as you want, but you will not find even one book out of the hundreds of millions of books that fit the 19 pattern. It has not been found and the code is so intricate, that it is impossible to be replicated in any book

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  188. @ laubadetriste : you are a very smart btw, that is why I will not debate you. You think I am interested in wasting my time on giving you or Ed. reasons that you have already made up your mind about before you even considered them. Do I really think that you, Ed or Mc. (AND others of your kind) think, or are willing to accept, that the is (or might be) a Truth outside of the Church -- both the concrete religious institution and the church of your mind)? So, what do we make of the causal link between Black slavery and the Bible? did you get a chance to meet the falsification challenge? I bet you did by saying that there have been Christian Abolitionists. A very good historical move. I bet this moved does not apply to Muslims.
    Give me a coffee break and do yourself a service by serving your own function in life and pretend to think that other humans (if they are humans by the standard of certain Christians) are not doomed to hell.
    In fact, let me leave you with a very telling quote by Chief Joseph (Hinmaton-Yalaktit) who said to some Christian missionaries this :
    "We do not want churches because they will teach us to quarrel about God, as the Catholics and Protestants do. We do not want to learn that. We may quarrel with men about things on earth, but we never quarrel about the Great Spirit."
    Do not expect a reply from me because I have little interest in quarreling with you or Ed's piece. Until you have atoned for the sins of your mind and those from whom you have inherited this sin, it is best that you leave other traditions alone and spend your time praying for forgiveness. If you are a pure spirit, then, you have not business, nor should you have the time, to quarrel with embodied being.






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  189. laubadetriste said...

    @DNW: 'It's interesting how the moment I ceased commenting on the prophetic product, and the heads of the faithful apologists were allowed to cool, the answers to all those critical questions regarding the Islamic canon, came cascading out, and all answers were laid at the feet of the sincerely inquiring. / Well, sort of. Well, no, actually. None of the questions I had asked regarding the historicity of the Koran's receipt were answered. Nor was there any explanation as to which hadiths are to be taken as, if you will pardon the expression, as Gospel, and which are taken with a grain of salt, as you know, still kinda sacred and meaningful, or not.'

    The conversation did not go that way, no. But to be fair, Jeremy's earlier filtered comments finally popped up, and they mention some serious scholarship.



    Yes, I do grant that Jeremy posted some links, ["You might start reading these sources (I haven't looked at them in depth, but ..."]

    ... and that they probably mention of some serious scholarship.


    I had however something in mind more along the lines of direct answers by Jeremy (who though not an Islamic scholar mentions he has studied Islam) or Omer (who is apparently a member of one sect of it or another) as to what comprises "the" (as Jeremy put it) canon of Islam by which outsiders are to evaluate it, and judge the historicity of the so-called revelation.



    " 'Yes, "Ninteen ... nineteen!" he cried, "Don't you see the perfection in this? The meaning? The proof? Ninteen! It's miraculous" / Or was it "eleven" ... /http://alphanuma.com/calculators/'

    "As was mentioned in the introduction, numerology has no place in Islam. It was neither sanctioned by the Qur’an nor by the Prophet Muhammad (ρ) and was opposed by the Companions of the Prophet(ρ) as well as the early scholars. The great 14th century C.E. scholar Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani said, '(Numerology) is completely false and should not be relied on, for it has been accurately reported that (the companion of the Prophet (ρ) Ibn ‘Abbas used to forbid the Abjad and consider it a form of Magic, which is quite reasonable, as it has no basis in the Shari‘ah (Islamic Law).'"--QNM, ch.9
    May 23, 2016 at 9:31 AM
    "


    Sure. I guess. But no sooner stated, than on-rushes Omer to argue, to the effect that,



    "No, that is completely false.

    I studied advanced statistics in graduate school. And I use it at work.

    Yes, we could indeed eventually find patterns in a book. But we cannot make it fit natural patterns that is already defined apriori. If there is no number given, then with creativity and with fishing, we can find patterns.

    However, that is precisely not what is going on with the Qur'an.

    The Qur'an specifically mentions 19 and then specifically mentions that this number will give certainty, add faith, and remove doubts.

    The patterns are natural...for example, it is natural to focus on the opening of every surah, In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.

    It is natural to focus on the abbreviated letters that begin 29 of the surahs like surah 2. No one understand the purpose of these abbreviations. We now know the #19 patterns fit with this abbreviations in their respective surahs.

    It is natural to focus on the first set of verses revealed or the first and last surah revealed, etc. There are numerous natural ways that when we analyze a lot of these natural ways, then it is revealed that it is divisible by 19 which is a very unlikely number to be divisible by.

    Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not know about the code because he did not have a computer to analyze the Qur'an and so on ...


    See, all you need is faith and the magic number.

    Perhaps Jeremy can instruct Omer on which are the truly proper analytical and critical methodologies to apply to Islam. Or vice versa

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  190. None of the questions I had asked regarding the historicity of the Koran's receipt were answered. Nor was there any explanation as to which hadiths are to be taken as, if you will pardon the expression, as Gospel, and which are taken with a grain of salt, as you know, still kinda sacred and meaningful, or not.

    I don't understand why you expect this. If someone comes on here with a caricature of Thomism (one that shows he has barely any knowledge of it) and then, if called on it, expects others to explain to tutor him in the basics of Thomism (all the while still harshly dismissing it as nonsense), it is legitimate to not to want to spoon feed him. Of course, there will be some saints who will try to help him learn, usually in vain. But, alas, I'm not a saint. I would not be tutoring them and I'm not going to tutor you. I have better things to do.

    My complaint was and is you know next to nothing about you were spouting off. As I said, all I was asking was a bit of basic knowledge, so the internet sources (one was an academic journal), even wikipedia would do. But you seem uninterested even in this.

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  191. - that should be I wouldn't be tutoring him (them is a plural pronoun, as some have forgotten today).

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  192. And I didn't say you didn't know about the Sunni-Shia split, only that your own words seemed to indicate that these were essentially just names to you until you browsed a wiki article.

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  193. Shame! Shame on you for making fun of what you clearly do not understand. Or if you understand it, fail to appreciate the beauty of. Or is it, of which you fail the beauty to appreciate ...

    It is easy to mock. Even the young earth creationists are full of mockery about the theory of evolution (indeed, your routine could be used exactly by them - mock evolution, make a crude caricature of it, and then expect it to be explained to you in detail whilst showing little knowledge of it yourself). But such mockery is not clever or witty or anything more than the squawking of fools unless there is some substance and insight behind it.

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  194. @Ocean D

    I hope you are doing well my brother in humanity. Regarding miracles in the Qur'an, there are many and it is difficult to list them all.

    I have given some and will give more.

    Another miracle is that at least hundreds of thousands of people today and more likely a few million have the entire Qur'an memorized from cover to cover. And of course many tens of millions who have memorized it from the past,

    The Qur'an states in multiple verses that it has been made easy to remember.

    There is absolutely no comparison with any other book in the history of mankind.

    This also relates to another amazing feature of the Qur'an which is it's authenticity.

    @laubedetriste

    Ibn Hajar Asqalani is correct that numerology is dangerous.

    The #19 miracle is not numerology which is to find meaning in the mystical connection with numbers.

    No, quite apart from numbers as a mystical entity having causal powers itself, all the #19 miracle shows is that it could not have been Prophet Muhammad who had authored the Qur'an. Impossible. So, it is not numbers that are having causal power but God...

    "...and He has encompassed whatever is with them and has enumerated all things in number." (Surah 72, verse 28)

    The #19 miracle is not needed as evidence for the Qur'an.

    The pure teachings of the Qur'an is more than sufficient for a seeker of full truth.

    #19 miracle is a mercy from God to those who find it difficult to question their inherited dogmas and predispositions. But some do not want mercy....they don't seek evidence even though they may ask for it. And if evidence is given, it only enrages them and I think we all can understand why that is so but it is disappointing.

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  195. @DNW: "Yes, I do grant that Jeremy posted some links, ["You might start reading these sources (I haven't looked at them in depth, but ..."] / ... and that they probably mention of some serious scholarship."

    :) Well, then I'll leave the two of you to discuss that.

    "I had however something in mind more along the lines of direct answers by... Omer (who is apparently a member of one sect of it or another) as to what comprises 'the'... canon of Islam by which outsiders are to evaluate it, and judge the historicity of the so-called revelation."

    I get the impression that Omer is--so to speak--a heterodox Muslim. He had said before that, "I take Qur'an as the primary source and thus I am not very keen on taking hadith as much as general Muslim scholars do (the Qur'an refers to itself as 'explaining all things' and the Prophet never commissioned his companions to collect his scattered sayings"; and therefore, apart from the immediate context of these disputes, you may have to find your answers elsewhere.

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  196. @Omer: "'You are so right. And by parallel reasoning, any of us could make a book fit patterns of 19 or any other number...' / No, that is completely false."

    Well, you got me there. That we could use *any* number was an exaggeration. Presumably aleph null, for example, would be a tough number to fit a book to.

    Let me rephrase, and say there are enough numbers we could use, that we suffer from an embarrassment of numerological riches.

    "I studied advanced statistics in graduate school. And I use it at work."

    Sounds impressive. Congratulations on your achievement.

    Now, if you could apply your skills to the questions at hand. For example:

    "Yes, we could indeed eventually find patterns in a book. But we cannot make it fit natural patterns that is already defined apriori."

    Item the first that advanced statistics won't help you with: understanding what "a priori" means. (To be fair, there has been some dispute about that over the last few centuries.) And if you've got an a priori argument about the Qur'an and the number 19, I would love to hear it, 'cause that sucker would be a hoot.

    Item the second that advanced statistics won't help you with: identifying what is "natural". I am aware of a number of things that you *could* mean by "natural", but rather than take the risk of misunderstanding you, why don't you just tell me what you mean?

    "The Qur'an specifically mentions 19 and then specifically mentions that this number will give certainty, add faith, and remove doubts."

    Perhaps you missed the brief QNM quote I made about that. Let me expatiate:

    You had claimed that, "[T]he Qur'an itself specifies this particular pattern...'Over it are nineteen' (Surah 74, verse 30)" But Bilal Philips had argued that the "it" in that verse could not refer to the Qur'an, both because that would be out of context, and also because that would be a failure of gender agreement between pronoun and noun. Here is the context, from Yusuf Ali as you said you prefer:

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  197. '10. Far from easy for those without Faith. 11. Leave Me alone, (to deal) with the (creature) whom I created (bare and) alone!- 12. To whom I granted resources in abundance, 13. And sons to be by his side!- 14. To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable! 15. Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- 16. By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory! 17. Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities! 18. For he thought and he plotted;- 19. And woe to him! How he plotted!- 20. Yea, Woe to him; How he plotted!- 21. Then he looked round; 22. Then he frowned and he scowled; 23. Then he turned back and was haughty; 24. Then said he: "This is nothing but magic, derived from of old; 25. "This is nothing but the word of a mortal!" 26. Soon will I cast him into Hell-Fire! 27. And what will explain to thee what Hell-Fire is? 28. Naught doth it permit to endure, and naught doth it leave alone!- 29. Darkening and changing the colour of man! 30. Over it are Nineteen. 31. And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this ?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind. 32. Nay, verily: By the Moon, 33. And by the Night as it retreateth, 34. And by the Dawn as it shineth forth,- 35. This is but one of the mighty (portents), 36. A warning to mankind,- 37. To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;- 38. Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds. 39. Except the Companions of the Right Hand. 40. (They will be) in Gardens (of Delight): they will question each other, 41. And (ask) of the Sinners: 42. "What led you into Hell Fire?"'

    "It" there doesn't seem to refer to the Qur'an. It seems to refer to hellfire. Lest my saying that should seem arbitrary, the *Study Qur'an* that you recommended to me comments, "Most exegetes interpret this verse as an allusion to the nineteen angels who are the keepers of Hell."

    (The Oxford translation of M. A. S Abdel Haleem seems clearest here: '26 1 will throw him into the scorching Fire. "What will explain to you what the scorching Fire is? 28 It spares nothing and leaves nothing; 29 it scorches the flesh of humans; 30 there are nineteen in charge of it — "none other than angels appointed by Us to guard Hellfire— and We have made their number" a test for the dis-believers. So those who have been given the Scripture will be certain and those who believe will have their faith increased: neither those who have been given the Scripture nor the believers will have any doubts..."

    You will note that the way in which the number 19 is there to "give certainty, add faith, and remove doubts" also undercuts your numerology, for again it is taken not to refer to the Qur'an.)

    Item the third that advanced statistics won't help you with: the translation, interpretation, letter and word counts, that are part of the basis of your whole argument. "Garbage in, garbage out," as they say in another discipline.

    "The patterns are natural...for example, it is natural to focus on the opening of every surah, In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate."

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  198. I repeat that I will let you tell me what you mean by "natural". However, I already quoted Bilal Philips as noting that "In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate" is composed of 19 written letters, but 22 spoken ones. As you helpfully added above, "whenever Prophet Muhammad conveyed a revelation to his companions, it was done every time orally." Are you going to argue that what you mean by "natural" includes our choice of which mode, oral or written, in which to find patterns?

    "It is natural to focus on the abbreviated letters that begin 29 of the surahs like surah 2. No one understand the purpose of these abbreviations. We now know the #19 patterns fit with this abbreviations in their respective surahs."

    "A quick review... indicates that out of the total 29 surahs beginning with the Arabic letters, the totals of 12 of them are not multiples of 19 and have to be combined with the totals of up to six other surahs in order for their grand totals to become multiples of 19. For example, in the figures for the 7 Haa Meem [Arabic] initialed surahs, not a single surah’s individual total of Haas [Arabic] and Meems [Arabic] adds up to a multiple of 19! In order to get his multiple, [one] has to total all 7 surah’s totals for a grand total of 2147 (19 x 113). But, even this figure is suspect as it includes the total from Soorahash-Shooraa (42) whose initials are not simply Haa Meem [Arabic], but Haa Meem ‘Ayn Seen Qaaf [Arabic], and if its total were removed, the grand total of the 6 surahs which only begin with Haa Meem is then 1794 which is indivisible by 19!"--QNM, ch. 3

    "...19 which is a very unlikely number to be divisible by."

    Unlikely compared to what? 17? 23? 3?

    Unlikely compared to 11? Unlikely compared to 137?

    "Again, you can try as much as you want, but you will not find even one book out of the hundreds of millions of books that fit the 19 pattern."

    Which one is "the" 19 pattern? I already found a dozen or so Stephen King books which fit a 19 pattern--seemingly for reasons similar to why the Qur'an can be made to fit a 19 pattern.

    "Perhaps, you missed the brief youtube I had sent before... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWRkYrjBiKw"

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  199. I caught that. Yes, Dr. Ally argues that 74:31 is longer than the surrounding verses, and contains a number of words that is a multiple of 19. (Get that? Never mind so much what the verse *says*: it's longer, and the number of words in it is divisible by 19!) That seems--judging by that video--to be the limit of his method: proceeding by suggestion and numerical intimidation rather than argument. It goes likes this:

    1) Huh. There's a 19 in there.
    2) [missing premise that no one even tries to provide]
    3) The Qur'an is divine.

    You can see this from minute 8:30-54: "19 times 103 is not a small number. But the same number occurs in two different counts. And for that kind of coincidence to occur, it's very rare. And it seems here that we're looking at a sign this Qur'an is miraculous, it is the word of God."

    To say that he skipped a step would be too kind.

    He does continue to explain that there are *a lot* of 19s; and then, that this is unlikely in the way that flipping a coin and getting heads repeatedly is unlikely. Again with sheer numerical intimidation instead of argument. For what is that supposed to mean? Is the purported argument--aside from the missing premise(s), that is--really based on just asserting that the odds of finding 19 repeatedly are just like the odds of getting heads repeatedly? That *ought* to embarrass someone who "studied advanced statistics in graduate school [and uses] it at work."

    Here's a fun question: what is the "natural" (in *your* sense) way to figure out what the odds of finding the number 19 in the Qur'an should be, if it weren't divine? (No, no need actually to calculate those odds for me. Put your advanced statistics away. Just tell me the "natural" way to figure that out.)

    Here's a fun parallel: 11 is the source of 70. Why? It says so. Therefore the odds of finding one number 11 in the Torah are 1 in 70. But there are over 100 coincidences in the Torah having to do with the number 11! And just like the odds of getting multiple heads in a row is obtained by multiplying them together, so too with 11 in the Torah! But that means that the odds against finding the number 11 in the Torah as often as we do are greater than 3.09169040809022048482035814385311822849840801221130… × 10^-185! That number is longer than the number of atoms in the observable universe! It seems here that we're looking at a sign this Torah is miraculous, it is the word of God.

    Now, you might argue that that is an arbitrary calculation based upon treating the Torah carelessly. But I would reply that there are a lot of 11s! Like, a lot! Very unlikely! Super tiny probability! Really big numbers!

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