Saturday, January 30, 2016

Debased Coynage


I had a lot to say about Jerry Coyne’s Faith versus Fact in my First Things review of the book, but much more could be said.  The reason is not that there is so much of interest in Coyne’s book, but rather because there is so little.  I was not being rhetorical when I said in my review that it might be the worst book yet published in the New Atheist genre.  It really is that awful, and goes wrong so thoroughly and so frequently that it would take a much longer review than I had space for fully to catalog its foibles.  An especially egregious example is Coyne’s treatment of Alvin Plantinga’s “evolutionary argument against naturalism” (or EAAN).

Keep in mind that I have myself been critical of Plantinga’s argument.  To be sure, I think that the general style of argument of which Plantinga’s is an instance -- what Victor Reppert calls the “argument from reason,” and which has been defended in different versions by thinkers as diverse as C. S. Lewis and Karl Popper -- is very good, and very important.  But I am not a fan of Plantinga’s way of stating it.  His emphasis on the weighing of probabilities is completely irrelevant to the main point of an “argument from reason,” and muddies the waters.  He conflates teleology and design in a way no Aristotelian or Thomist would.  And the argument is not as directly relevant to defending theism (as opposed to critiquing naturalism, which is a different issue) as Plantinga implies.  (See my discussion of the EAAN in a post from a few years ago and in my First Things review of Plantinga’s book Where the Conflict Really Lies.) 

All the same, Coyne’s criticisms are cringe-makingly incompetent.  Plantinga argues that natural selection will favor adaptive behavior whether or not it stems from true beliefs, so that evolution cannot by itself account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties.  (Again, see the articles linked to for more detailed discussion of Plantinga’s argument.)  One problem with Coyne’s discussion is that he characterizes the EAAN as a “god of the gaps” argument (Faith versus Fact, p. 178).  But it is not that at all.  It would be a “god of the gaps” argument if Plantinga were claiming that some purely naturalistic process might in principle account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties, but that it is more probable that God created them.  But that is not his argument.  His argument is precisely that a purely naturalistic process cannot even in principle account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties.  (True, Plantinga speaks of probabilities, but he is not saying that it is merely probable that naturalism cannot account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties.  Rather, he is saying that naturalistic processes cannot in principle by themselves give any of our beliefs more than a fifty-fifty chance of being true.) 

Whether or not one agrees that Plantinga has really shown this, Coyne doesn’t even understand the nature of Plantinga’s reasoning.  Like other philosophically unsophisticated New Atheist types, he seems to think that every anti-atheist argument simply must be a lame “god of the gaps” argument, and thus reads that style of reasoning into Plantinga.

Second, Coyne claims that Plantinga’s position is that “humans could never have true beliefs about anything without God’s intervention” (p. 177, emphasis in the original).  But that is not what Plantinga says.  He never denies that we might have some true beliefs if naturalism were true.  Indeed, he doesn’t deny that we might have many true beliefs, maybe even mostly true beliefs, if naturalism were true.  What he says is rather that if naturalism is true, then we cannot have any reason to believe that our beliefs are true.  They may or may not be true, but we could never be justified in thinking that they are.  He isn’t saying: “Naturalism entails that all our beliefs are false.”  Rather, he is saying: “Naturalism entails that we cannot know whether any of our beliefs are true.”  The reason is that neither their truth nor their falsity would be relevant to the behavior associated with them, and it is the behavior alone which (Plantinga argues) natural selection can mold.

Third, Coyne thinks it a serious criticism to point out that even if the EAAN works, it wouldn’t establish “Plantinga’s Christian God as opposed to any other god” (p. 179).  This is a silly objection for two reasons.  First, it is an attack upon a straw man, since Plantinga does not claim that the EAAN establishes Christianity, specifically.  Second, if the EAAN works and thereby establishes the existence of some god or other, that would be sufficient to refute Coyne’s atheism.  It would be quite ridiculous for an atheist to say: “Sure, you’ve shown that a deity exists, but how does that refute atheism?  You haven’t proven that Jesus is divine, that the Bible is inspired, etc!”

Fourth, for some bizarre reason, Coyne seems to think that the EAAN is related to Calvin’s notion of a sensus divinitatis or innate awareness of God (pp. 178f.).  He quotes a line about the sensus divinitatis from a passage from Plantinga that has nothing to do with the EAAN, runs it together with material that is concerned with the EAAN, and presents Plantinga’s argument as if it were fundamentally concerned to show that our cognitive faculties can be reliable only if Calvin’s sensus divinitatis thesis is correct.  This is either embarrassingly dishonest or (more charitably) embarrassingly incompetent.  Either way, it is a travesty of Plantinga’s position.  Imagine someone first quoting a few lines from a speech on health care given by President Obama, then quoting a line or two from an Obama speech on gun control, and then claiming on the basis of this textual “evidence” that one of the central components of Obamacare is gun control.  That’s about the level of scholarship Coyne exhibits.

Fifth, Coyne spills a lot of ink arguing that many of our beliefs are false and that there are certain errors to which we are constitutionally prone -- “probably,” Coyne says, because of the way we evolved (pp. 179-80).  How this is supposed to be a problem for the EAAN, I have no idea.  For one thing, Plantinga would take the considerations cited by Coyne to be confirming evidence that naturalism cannot account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties.  But even Coyne insists (as he would have to if he is going to trust his own cognitive faculties) that they are at the end of the day “fairly reliable” (emphasis added).  For another thing, Plantinga never claims in the first place (contrary to the impression Coyne gives) that we are not prone to errors.  His point is precisely rather that naturalism cannot even account for the fact that our cognitive faculties are at least “fairly reliable.”  Plantinga isn’t saying: “Naturalism cannot account for our cognitive faculties’ being perfectly reliable.”  He is saying: “Naturalism cannot account for our cognitive faculties’ being reliable at all.”

Sixth, in attempting to defend the claim that natural selection can account for the reliability of our cognitive faculties, Coyne cites a number of tendencies we exhibit that are adaptive (pp. 181-2).  The trouble, though, is that his examples have nothing at all to do with our beliefs as opposed to our behavior; indeed, Coyne himself admits that some of what he describes are “not beliefs, really, but adaptive behaviors.”  But this misses the entire point of Plantinga’s argument, which is precisely that there is nothing for which natural selection can account that goes beyond our behavior.  The behavior will be either adaptive or maladaptive whatever beliefs happen to be associated with it, so that natural selection can only ever operate on the former and not the latter.  Hence while Coyne goes on to suggest that because the former are adaptive, the latter must be too, he has given no reason whatsoever to think so, but merely ignored, rather than answered, Plantinga’s argument, the whole point of which is to show that such an inference is a non sequitur. 

So, those are six major problems just with Coyne’s brief treatment of a single argument.  Another example of Coyne’s laughable standards of scholarship is his method of repeatedly citing the Oxford English Dictionary whenever he needs to define some key term (“religion,” “supernatural,” etc.).  The absurdity of this procedure can be seen by imagining someone writing a book on chemistry (say) and relying on OED or some other dictionary of everyday usage in order to define the key terms.  Hence suppose that he defines a chemical element as “a part or aspect of something abstract, especially one that is essential or characteristic”; that he defines a bond as a “physical restraint used to hold someone or something prisoner, especially ropes or chains”; and so forth.  Obviously this would be a ridiculous procedure, since such terms have a technical meaning in chemistry that corresponds only loosely at best to the ordinary usage captured in the usual dictionary definitions.  Now, philosophy and theology too use many terms in technical senses that do not closely correspond to ordinary usage.  Hence it is no less absurd to write on those subjects while relying on a dictionary of ordinary usage for one’s characterization of the key ideas of those fields.  But that is exactly what Coyne does.

Then there is Coyne’s account of scientific method.  He writes:

Science comprises an exquisitely refined set of tools designed to find out what is real and to prevent confirmation bias. Science prizes doubt and iconoclasm, rejects absolute authority, and relies on testing one’s ideas with experiments and observations of nature.  Its sine qua non is evidence -- evidence that can be inspected and adjudicated by any trained and rational observer.  And it depends largely on falsification.  Nearly every scientific truth comes with an implicit rider: “Evidence X would show this to be wrong.” (p. 65)

Even the most militantly atheist philosopher of science would regard this as laughably naïve and dated.  You’d never know from Coyne’s circa-1955 Children’s Encyclopedia conception of science that Kuhn’s Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Feyerabend’s Against Method, etc. had ever been written.  You don’t need to be a relativist or anti-realist about science (and I certainly am not) to know that things are much more complicated than the long-exploded myth of the Dispassionate Men in White Lab Coats would have it.

In other ways too, Coyne’s knowledge of the philosophy of science is staggering in its nonexistence.  His glib appeal to “laws of nature” manifests little awareness of how philosophically problematic the notion is, and zero awareness of the debate over the issue that has been conducted in contemporary metaphysics and philosophy of science.  (Readers interested in finding out what the debate is about can’t do better than to start with Stephen Mumford’s Laws in Nature.) 

Coyne asserts in passing that laws are “simply observed regularities that hold in our universe” (p. 158) -- completely oblivious to the problem that this sort of account of laws threatens to strip them of the explanatory power that he needs for them to have if they are to count as even a prima facie alternative to theism.  (Suppose there is a regular correlation in nature between phenomenon A and phenomenon B and you ask for an explanation of it.  If laws just are observed regularities, then to say that it is a “law” that A is correlated with B is in no way to explain the correlation, but merely to re-label it.)  Moreover, on one page Coyne acknowledges that “the laws of physics… needs [sic] explanation” (p. 158) , but then, on the very next page, after arguing that all laws can be taken down to some level of “fundamental laws,” suddenly dismisses the claim that those fundamental laws need any explanation.  How this can be anything other than the fallacy of special pleading, he does not tell us.

Note that what Coyne is doing here is exactly what he, like other New Atheists, falsely accuses First Cause arguments of doing.  Their stock accusation is that First Cause arguments rest on the premise that “everything has a cause,” but then suddenly make an arbitrary exception when it comes to God.  As I have shown many times, that is nothing more than an urban legend.  No philosopher has ever given such an argument or made such an arbitrary exception.  But Coyne, like so many other New Atheists, is taking a position that commits an exactly parallel fallacy.  They are saying that all natural laws require an explanation in terms of more fundamental laws, but suddenly make an arbitrary exception when they get to whatever the most fundamental laws of physics turn out to be.

(In response to those who would appeal to God in order to explain the fundamental laws, Coyne trots out, as if on cue… wait for it… the usual amateur atheist retort “where did that God come from?” (p. 159) -- the point-missing stupidity of which Coyne has had personally explained to him many times now, most recently here.)

I could very easily go on -- Coyne’s writings are the gift-to-bloggers that keeps giving -- but bouncing rubble gets boring after a while.  We have, many times now -- e.g. here, here, here, here, and here -- seen how preternaturally bad Coyne’s musings on philosophy and religion can be when he wings it for the blog post du jour.  It turns out that he’s not one whit better when he’s got space, time, and a cash incentive to produce something more serious at book-length.  If Darwin’s Origin of Species was One Long Argument, Faith versus Fact is essentially One Long Dashed-Off Blog Post.  It adds absolutely nothing to the New Atheist literature except a further 311 pages.

518 comments:

  1. DJ:
    The argument goes like this:
    1) If states of change happen in a terminating chain then existence happens in a terminating chain.
    2) States of change happen in a terminating chain,
    3) Therefore existence happens in a terminating chain.


    The only resemblance this bears to the cosmological argument is that the words "chain" and "existence" appear in it. You are obviously deeply and utterly confused, as well as unable to express any coherent train of thought. "Existence happens in a terminating chain" is not even intelligible, since existence does not "happen", least of all "in a chain". It also has been explained ad nauseam that the cosmological argument does not depend on the termination of any chains.

    You agree (with some caveats?) that states of change are not the same as existence itself, or "cause" in the Thomist sense of enabling existence. Since you agree (somewhat) that they are different, I wonder how you can ignore my objection that evidence for one cannot be held as evidence for the other. When you claim one is 'logically' necessary, I would like to see the syllogism.

    Read Ed Fesers many posts about the CA, I'm not going to repeat all of that here once again. There is nothing that "enables" existence. There is no "Existence: On" button which God pushed to create the world. Existence is not a property. Rather, properties presuppose Existence. As long as you don't understand that, you will continue to produce word salad instead of arguments.

    Me: "It's true that there is a common contemporary causal use of 'flammability'. Which proves that Aristotle's concepts have not been outdated or rendered useless by science, as you and Coyne claim."
    DJ: To speak in your manner, it's useless as a conceptual framework.


    Again, assertion without justification. And it was you who said:
    DJ: It's common to speak of flammable materials being the cause of fires. It's important enough to influence building codes and clothing for example.

    You've already forgotten your own words, apparently. Flammability is a material cause, but not an efficient one. So for this case, Aristotle's framework works as an explanation, while modern event-based causation does not. But maybe you will now argue that building codes and clothing are useless things.

    Religion is shared. Religion is subjective. Art is shared. Art is subjective.

    No. Both have subjective and objective aspects. Your gut-version of the notions of subjective and objective is confused.

    objective -- (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

    Wrong. This is gnu talk. Objective means "treatable like an object", that is, "amenable to public, sharable norms of representation which can be expressed and taught using language".

    For example, the notion of "red" has a subjective aspect, since it cannot be taught by explanation alone. One has to be shown an example in order to learn the correct application of "red". The practices of calling certain things "red" and handling them in certain ways are publicly shared by a community of speakers, which is the objective aspect of it.

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  2. DJ,

    I'm confident I understand the argument for First Cause.

    On 2/17 you were adamant that there is no argument for First Cause, and on 2/21 you are confident that you understand said argument. This is a remarkable turnaround in so short a period of time. I tip my hat to you. **

    It's not too complicated.

    That is true.

    Nonetheless, the mere fact that the argument isn't too complicated is no match for your ability to bollix it up.

    To wit (I use what you subsequently said to pck as an example for the reason that it best portrays that mistaken understanding of yours which has long been in evidence)):

    "The argument goes like this:

    "1) If states of change happen in a terminating chain then existence happens in a terminating chain.

    "2) States of change happen in a terminating chain,

    "3) Therefore existence happens in a terminating chain."

    If you think I do not understand, please tell me what you think I don't understand.

    For one thing, many of your utterances provide ample evidence of cluelessness on your part regarding the fact that a non-terminating 'chain' does not weaken, undermine or overturn the argument. Witness your bungling of the argument just above.

    Please keep in mind that reservations about certain assumptions and leaps of reason made in the argument do not imply a lack of understanding.

    If you had said that 'reservations' and 'leaps of reason' do not necessarily imply a lack of understanding, I would have had to agreed. But you didn't say that. And, of course, sometimes 'reservations' and 'leaps of reason' do indeed imply a lack of understanding. Just consider the role they played in the unwitting mangling of your recounting of the argument to pck.

    - - - - -

    ** You will, of course, object. And I will acknowledge the objection.

    That is, it is true that you did not say that there is no argument for First Cause, full stop. No, you said that there is no argument for First Cause from analogy, induction or deduction.

    But if there is an argument for First Cause -- and there must be -- else why would you claim to be confident that you understand it? -- and it isn't from analogy, induction or deduction, then what is that you think it is from?

    We find a clue in the statement immediately following your statement that no argument for First Cause follows from analogy, induction or deduction.

    Specifically, you stated that, "There is simply human bias."

    In stating that, however, you met with success in two, apparently unanticipated ways:

    a) you publicized one reason for your denials, distortions, gadfly extrusions and other chaff-emitting countermeasures; and,

    b) you made it known that your denials, distortions, etc. can all be sloughed off as nothing more than indications of one or more of your particular biases.

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  3. I've seen both definitions of objective vs subjective, one is for expression/publication and the other is for Philosophy of Mind.

    @DJ

    ""Why is grass so happy?" is probably not a legitimate question."

    Well, I was hoping for some sort of classification criteria.

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  4. DJ:
    In matters of 'logical' proofs, in matters of evidence, it definitely is. Just ask a group of people what last year's best movie was and you'll see how weak subjective arguments are.

    Disagreement doesn't equal weakness. Disagreement in opinion is rooted in the fact that different things matter to different people. This does not amount to a "logical" rejection of the truth or importance of what matters to people. The fact that there is no universal standard by which movies are judged doesn't prove that "objective is better than subjective" or whatever it is that you are trying to do here. As for evidence, the same evidence can be used to (correctly) prove opposite claims, as TOF remarked earlier. It all depends on the conceptual framework of your theory. So there goes your cherished, but misguided notion of "objectivity".

    There's no doubt that human beings filter what we see as important in the world. We do this from birth. This is not a mechanical process. This "IT" thing is yet another straw man. The filtering is very un-machine-like. It's based on our emotions, on our wants and interests. Machines have none of those things.

    "Filtering" then is merely a metaphor and a misleading one at that. What we actually have are powers of structuring and organization. Filtering is a passive, predetermined process, while structuring and ordering are active notions which are better suited as descriptions of what humans do. Filtering also presupposes that we take in "unfiltered" information and then select from that. But we do not take in information at all. What we really do is to let sensory input inform our actions. Often enough, this involved no selection at all. (When I open a door, I do not filter or select one movement of my hand from all the possible movements of it. That would take forever, because there are too many possibilities. Rather, I draw on my power for my actions to be guided by a combination of previous experiences (memory) and my present visual experience of the door.)

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  5. pck

    "'Existence happens in a terminating chain' is not even intelligible, since existence does not 'happen', least of all 'in a chain'. It also has been explained ad nauseam that the cosmological argument does not depend on the termination of any chains."

    Existence doesn't happen? Then change doesn't happen. In your mind, 'ontic' change/cause (whatever) doesn't happen in an argument based on that change/cause (whatever). You're denying the foundation of your argument. You long ago ceased to be a challenge, pck. It has been explained ad nauseam that the cosmological argument does depend on termination of a chain of change, even if the 'chain' consists of one link.


    "There is nothing that "enables" existence. There is no 'Existence: On' button which God pushed to create the world."

    Good. Then we agree. Until you change your mind.


    "Existence is not a property. Rather, properties presuppose Existence."

    I'm glad you said that. This is evidence for what I've always said. The cosmological argument is not an argument. It's not arrived at deductively. It's a few vacuous presuppositions like this gem.

    Fyi, we can't think of existence in any way other than its properties. If you say you can, you're fooling yourself. Yet you're implying that it's proper to separate existence from properties, and further, that existence precedes properties. At best this is an assertion without foundation.


    "Flammability is a material cause, but not an efficient one."

    My claim is that 'material cause' is a human distinction invented by philosophers. It has no basis in the real world. It's a biased way of perceiving the world. So you merely beg the question. I don't argue that building codes and clothing are useless things. I argue Aristotle's fine distinctions related to cause -- especially final cause -- are useless things.


    "As for evidence, the same evidence can be used to (correctly) prove opposite claims, as TOF remarked earlier. It all depends on the conceptual framework of your theory. So there goes your cherished, but misguided notion of 'objectivity'."

    That's relativistic nonsense. In this proposed relativistic world, a speck of dirt in the corner makes the whole room dirty. You undermine everything you say about the world when you do this. You then will have no basis for saying your conceptual framework is any better than that typically found in an insane asylum.


    "Filtering is a passive, predetermined process,"

    False. In electronics, for example, we speak of active and passive filters. But it doesn't really matter. Whether emotions are considered active or passive, we're stuck with them. They drive everything we do.


    "(When I open a door, I do not filter or select one movement of my hand from all the possible movements of it. That would take forever, because there are too many possibilities. Rather, I draw on my power for my actions to be guided by a combination of previous experiences (memory) and my present visual experience of the door.)"

    Filtering in the context I'm using it here consists of selecting input most related to your desire to open the door. That desire filters what interests you at that moment. You filter out most everything in the surroundings that is irrelevant to your desire to open that door.

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  6. Glenn,

    "On 2/17 you were adamant that there is no argument for First Cause, and on 2/21 you are confident that you understand said argument."

    It must be hard, but please try to be fair. When I say there is no argument for first cause I mean there is no valid argument. The arguments that purport to be arguments are not true arguments. They are not valid arguments from analogy, induction or deduction. They do what pck has shown a talent for -- they shape assertions in a way to make it appear as though they're arguments. I understand that the so-called argument is rhetorical misdirection. So when it's said B follows A, I point out that B cannot follow A because it's not even related to A. When confronted with this fact I see a dance around the issue with something like, But, golly, we've got to assume that anyway, don't we?


    "many of your utterances provide ample evidence of cluelessness on your part regarding the fact that a non-terminating 'chain' does not weaken, undermine or overturn the argument."

    It's all about termination of a chain. This cannot be honestly denied. It's so much about this termination that it's considered rude and irrational to keep asking for better termination. If we ask the obvious, Why God? then we're told we're whiny children because an end has been reached, fair and square.


    "you made it known that your denials, distortions, etc. can all be sloughed off as nothing more than indications of one or more of your particular biases."

    So my biases are irrelevant while Thomist biases prove God exists beyond doubt. Nice.

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  7. BLS,

    Me: "'Why is grass so happy?' is probably not a legitimate question."

    You: "Well, I was hoping for some sort of classification criteria."

    I don't know what a proper classification might be. But to ask, 'Why nature instead of nothing' seems to me to be in the same category as 'Why is grass so happy?' We have no reason to think grass could be happy. Similarly, we have no reason to think nature couldn't or shouldn't exist except by some outside source.

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  8. DJ,

    It must be hard, but please try to be fair. When I say there is no argument for first cause I mean there is no valid argument.

    I knew you would object, but I hadn't anticipated that you would -- gasp! -- beg the question while doing so.

    But perhaps I am being 'unfair' again, and what you really mean to say is that there is no valid argument for First Cause of which you are aware -- or that no argument for First Cause of which you are aware conforms to your understanding of what it means for an argument to be valid.

    Btw, here is a valid argument, handcrafted for your personal delectation:

    Don Jindra is a genius. All geniuses accept that the argument for First Cause is valid. Therefore, Don Jindra accepts that the argument for First Cause is valid.

    It's all about termination of a chain. This cannot be honestly denied.

    So says he who thought it worth his while to write,

    - - - - -
    Yet in a blog post entitled, "Edwards on infinite causal series," our gracious host wrote this...sentence: "Edwards does realize that Aquinas is not arguing that the universe must have had a beginning -- that the first cause he is arguing for is 'first' not in a temporal sense, but in an ontological sense, a sustaining cause of the world here and now and at any moment at which the world exists at all."
    - - - - -

    "you made it known that your denials, distortions, etc. can all be sloughed off as nothing more than indications of one or more of your particular biases."

    So my biases are irrelevant while Thomist biases prove God exists beyond doubt. Nice.


    You are confused. That your denials, distortions, etc., are grounded in your personal biases does not render your biases irrelevant; it only means that the denials, distortions, etc., themselves are irrelevant -- in an environment where something which at least resembles rational argument is expected.

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  9. DJ,

    You long ago ceased to be a challenge, pck.

    Not that my opinion will matter much (if at all) to you, but I think you hiting your stride with pck simply means you've adapted yourself to blocking out challenges from a new source.

    But, hey, you're free to do all the disservice to yourself that your emotions drive you to do.

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  10. "I don't know what a proper classification might be. But to ask, 'Why nature instead of nothing' seems to me to be in the same category as 'Why is grass so happy?' We have no reason to think grass could be happy. Similarly, we have no reason to think nature couldn't or shouldn't exist except by some outside source."

    "seems"

    The problem with "seems" is that it is hard to evaluate if question begging occurs. The grass question contains a contradiction, it is like asking why a thing has something that it can't ever have. A question like "why does something exist?" Does not seem parallel to the grass question since it does not contain an obvious contradiction that follows the "why."

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  11. About existence, FWIW we can meaningfully discuss things that we can't mentally visualize, like the geometric features of a 600 sided figure.

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  12. @Glenn

    If I had to guess, I'd say DJ is mixing up terms and meant "no sound argument" instead of "no valid argument."

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  13. DJ:
    Existence doesn't happen? Then change doesn't happen.

    Events happen. Change happens. Existence is a precondition of change and events. Therefore, it is logically impossible that "existence happens" (capital E or not).

    It has been explained ad nauseam that the cosmological argument does depend on termination of a chain of change

    Yes, by those who don't have the slightest inkling of what the CA is about. You're still burning the midnight straw.

    Me:"Existence is not a property. Rather, properties presuppose Existence."
    I'm glad you said that. This is evidence for what I've always said.


    It's not. It's the root of your confusion about the difference between Being and becoming (aka Existence and existence).

    My claim is that 'material cause' is a human distinction invented by philosophers. It has no basis in the real world.

    Name a distinction that has no human origin. Explain what the criteria are for having "a basis in the real world", if no human distinctions are allowed.

    It's a biased way of perceiving the world.

    There is no such thing as looking at the world without a specific way of looking at it. The same "argument" can be brought forth against anything that anybody ever said. Including everything that you have said. You need to be much more specific than "it's of human origin, so it's biased" if you want to say anything relevant. As of now, all you have produced is substanceless rhetoric of the cheapest kind, leading nowhere.

    So you merely beg the question.

    Which question?

    I argue Aristotle's fine distinctions related to cause -- especially final cause -- are useless things.

    You said that basketballs are causes of scoring and that flammability is a cause of safety measures. These are both material causes in Aristotle's sense. They are not causes in the modern event-based sense. In modern terminology, bballs and flammability are reasons and explanations, not causes, of scoring and safety measures. You have thus outed yourself as a devout follower of Aristotle's aitia.

    you're implying that it's proper to separate existence from properties

    Becoming is explainable by appealing to properties. Existence (Being with a capital B) is not.

    In electronics, for example, we speak of active and passive filters.

    This is a very different use of "active" than the one I was employing. Therefore your reply is vacuous.

    In this proposed relativistic world, a speck of dirt in the corner makes the whole room dirty. You undermine everything you say about the world when you do this. You then will have no basis for saying your conceptual framework is any better than that typically found in an insane asylum.

    I have implied no relativism. As I have pointed out many times, conceptual frameworks are not right or wrong by themselves. Rather, a CF determines what counts as right and wrong. The rules of chess determine which moves are legal (right) and which ones are illegal (wrong). But it's nonsense to say that the rules themselves are legal or illegal.

    All theories need a CF within which they are formulated. Theories can therefore be right or wrong. CFs cannot. You continue to conflate the two. The result is nonsense.

    Filtering in the context I'm using it here consists of selecting input most related to your desire to open the door. That desire filters what interests you at that moment. You filter out most everything in the surroundings that is irrelevant to your desire to open that door.

    As I said, this view presupposes that, through our senses, we take everything (whatever that is supposed to mean) in first, and then select from that totality of information. Which is of course preposterous for a multitude of reasons.

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  14. Me: Therefore, it is logically impossible that "existence happens" (capital E or not).

    Correction: "existence" (lowercase "e"), read in the sense of "becoming", can and does happen. But Existence (captial "E"), Being itself, cannot.

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  15. DJ:
    You long ago ceased to be a challenge, pck.
    Glenn:
    Not that my opinion will matter much (if at all) to you, but I think you hiting your stride with pck simply means you've adapted yourself to blocking out challenges from a new source.

    Yes, DJ shows even more confusion about the bits he thinks he and I agree on than he does about our disagreements.

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  16. BLS,

    If I had to guess, I'd say DJ is mixing up terms and meant "no sound argument" instead of "no valid argument."

    I think that is a decent guess.

    I also think it would be more precise to say that he actually means both that the argument's premises (A) are false [1], and that the argument's conclusion (B) does not follow from its premises [2].

    The problem for DJ, however, is that he has been unable to get from merely asserting that it is so to rationally showing that it is so.

    - - - - -

    [1] February 6, 2016 at 9:10 AM: "For years I've said the 'A's around here are false."

    [2] February 23, 2016 at 9:22 AM: "So when it's said B follows A, I point out that B cannot follow A because it's not even related to A."

    ReplyDelete
  17. pck,

    Yes, DJ shows even more confusion about the bits he thinks he and I agree on than he does about our disagreements.

    Well, his attic is vacant, so...

    ReplyDelete
  18. (Well, his attic is vacant, so...

    (This is overly harsh. The fact of the matter is that I do think there have been a number of indications that he is not quite as 'oppositionalistic' privately as he publicly appears to be.)

    ReplyDelete
  19. Glenn:
    (This is overly harsh. The fact of the matter is that I do think there have been a number of indications that he is not quite as 'oppositionalistic' privately as he publicly appears to be.)

    The gnus I know in real life (sample size in the high single digits) are shy in private (particularly the IT guys) and get confrontational only on the net. Bit of a cliche, but it's congruent with my experience. They're not bad people, but some of them really are their own worst enemy.

    Well, his attic is vacant

    Perhaps not vacant, but there is certainly a lot of disarray, dust and cobwebs up there. He does have the ability to compress a large number of confusions into a minimal amount of words, which is helping me with a small book I'm writing. It's aimed at a general audience with no philosophical training, so it's good to be reminded of all the elementary pitfalls the text must call attention to.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Glenn,

    "But perhaps I am being 'unfair' again, and what you really mean to say is that there is no valid argument for First Cause of which you are aware -- or that no argument for First Cause of which you are aware conforms to your understanding of what it means for an argument to be valid."

    That would be more fair. I doubt there is an argument for First Cause that has escaped my attention. Nevertheless, I'm concentrating on the version(s) of it endorsed here. Everyone expects an argument to conform to his understanding of what it means for an argument to be valid.


    "Aquinas is not arguing that the universe must have had a beginning -- that the first cause he is arguing for is 'first' not in a temporal sense, but in an ontological sense, a sustaining cause of the world here and now and at any moment at which the world exists at all."

    That "ontological sense" is assumed to be a chain, even if that chain is admitted to be one link. The argument is always based on chains like hand-stick-rock. Without talking about chains, there is no argument.


    "That your denials, distortions, etc., are grounded in your personal biases does not render your biases irrelevant; it only means that the denials, distortions, etc., themselves are irrelevant"

    I'm not the one trying to package my biases into a logical proof. So your complaint is overblown. Your language still amounts to you saying your biases have a privileged status.


    "The problem for DJ, however, is that he has been unable to get from merely asserting that it is so to rationally showing that it is so."

    As I've said, the A-T philosopher merely asserts what must be so rather than rationally showing that it is so.




    BLS,

    "The grass question contains a contradiction, it is like asking why a thing has something that it can't ever have. A question like 'why does something exist?' Does not seem parallel to the grass question since it does not contain an obvious contradiction that follows the 'why.'"

    We don't describe grass as happy because grass doesn't conform to the way we use 'happy.' There is no logical contradiction in saying it is happy. Nothing in our experience tells us that grass can be described as happy. I think asking why nature exists is similar. Nothing in our experience tells us that there could be a condition in which nature did not exist. Logic is silent on the matter.


    "If I had to guess, I'd say DJ is mixing up terms and meant 'no sound argument' instead of 'no valid argument.'"

    I'll let you guys quibble over that.

    ReplyDelete
  21. pck,

    "Therefore, it is logically impossible that 'existence happens'."

    If you believe that then Existence (nature) certainly needs no First Cause to make it 'happen.' I predict you'll back away from that statement (like with with 'E' and 'e') and claim it means x when applied to me but -x when applied to you.


    "It's the root of your confusion about the difference between Being and becoming"

    You're begging the question. There is no 'becoming.' That's my position.


    "There is no such thing as looking at the world without a specific way of looking at it. The same 'argument' can be brought forth against anything that anybody ever said."

    I'm not the one using my biases to "prove" there is a God. When I do something like that, you'll have a legitimate point.


    "You said that basketballs are causes of scoring and that flammability is a cause of safety measures. These are both material causes in Aristotle's sense. They are not causes in the modern event-based sense."

    You're applying Aristotle's causes to this example -- his distinctions between material and efficient causes. You're not applying a modern distinction. If the 'modern' way of talking about causes does away with these distinctions then all cause is simply cause. To claim moderns see causes as "reasons and explanations" is vague to say the least. Regardless, all you're talking about is POV -- human bias. I deny the ancients were less biased than we are today.


    "This is a very different use of 'active' than the one I was employing. Therefore your reply is vacuous."

    Since it's not clear what your use of 'active' actually means, I admit my response to your vacuous assertion is equally vacuous.


    "As I have pointed out many times, conceptual frameworks are not right or wrong by themselves. Rather, a CF determines what counts as right and wrong. The rules of chess determine which moves are legal (right) and which ones are illegal (wrong). But it's nonsense to say that the rules themselves are legal or illegal."

    That's relativism in the worst sense. You're saying any conceptual framework will do. We're free to create them like rules of a game. Nothing is right or wrong other that what we say is right and wrong.


    "As I said, this view presupposes that, through our senses, we take everything (whatever that is supposed to mean) in first, and then select from that totality of information. Which is of course preposterous for a multitude of reasons."

    We differ on how we think the brain works. But it's preposterous to think we consult a lofty conceptual framework prior to focusing our attention on opening a door.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Glenn & pck,

    I often wonder what it is that drives people to trying to analyze the personality of debating adversaries. Since neither of you have top-notch crystal balls, I'll help a little. Most of us are probably fairly complex individuals. It could be said of my youth that I was a 'shy' child. OTOH, I was also very aggressive, especially in a competitive sense. Today I'd describe myself as an introvert. I don't like big parties. But I love talking in small groups when talk is about more than fishing, football, or reality TV. In person, I never hesitate to make my opinions known. I live in Hollywood. There's a lot of traffic. I walk a lot. One of my pet peeves is drivers who block crosswalks. They do that to me, I slam my fist on their hood. Dumb, maybe, but it gets their attention. If you're ahead of me with 30 items in a 'Ten Items or Less' line at the supermarket, I'm likely to squeeze ahead of you and ask if you know how to read. I'll bet I know a lot more engineers than you two do. It's hard to characterize us although the media loves to do it.

    It's ironic that 'Glenn' and 'pck' suggest that 'Don Jindra' is the one who may not be who he seems to be here. I'm exactly who I say I am. I don't hide behind an online persona. I'm not Clark Kent at home waiting to become Super Gnu on line. I'm not embarrassed by anything I write. I think I'm right about these issues. I think you're easily shown wrong -- no Super Gnu strength required. I've seen your arguments. So when I read comments about my 'attic' I just smile. It's just one more weak assertion you're so wrong about. Nevertheless, I'm happy to help with pck's book. I hope his straw man version of me is entertaining. I also dabble in writing. I've been working on a non-fiction books for years. It concerns the strange winding road of ideas and politics. Some of the discussions I've had here might wind up in that book as well.

    ReplyDelete
  23. "We don't describe grass as happy because grass doesn't conform to the way we use 'happy.' There is no logical contradiction in saying it is happy. Nothing in our experience tells us that grass can be described as happy. I think asking why nature exists is similar. Nothing in our experience tells us that there could be a condition in which nature did not exist. Logic is silent on the matter."

    Your first sentence does not imply your second sentence. Why does involvement of conformation of behavior and/or our semantic descriptions mean logic does not apply? Grass lacks the behavior which we define as happy. But, the question implies the opposite, that it does indeed possess the behavior which we call happy. Thus we have one statement which implies A and one that implies not A, the definition of a logical contradiction.

    Also, I still don't see the parallel. Your first and third statement imply that we start with some definition, and then observe some thing. Then, depending on our observation, we do or do not ascribe a property to it. The definition in the other case would presumably be contingent. Now, what could we observe in nature to confirm or deny that the definition of contingent does not apply to it? I don't think that a contingent thing necessarily has to go in or out of existence at some point in time, so looking at that won't aid the issue. What data could we collect in this matter by merely observing things?

    ReplyDelete
  24. DJ,

    Thanks for the autobiography. As said once before, you're a funny man.

    Today I'd describe myself as an introvert...In person, I never hesitate to make my opinions known.

    Interesting. Here on the East Coast an extrovert usually hesitates before making his opinions known.

    I live in Hollywood. There's a lot of traffic. I walk a lot. One of my pet peeves is drivers who block crosswalks. They do that to me, I slam my fist on their hood. Dumb, maybe, but it gets their attention.

    Since you insist that, "Every event has at least two points of view", won't you at least acknowledge that it is possible that it is the crosswalk which blocks the car? If it is the crosswalk which blocks the car, then, since in that case it is the crosswalk which has it in for you, maybe next time you should stomp on the crosswalk rather than pound the hood of the car. (Just to sort of, you know, introduce some balance to your cross walking encounters.)

    If you're ahead of me with 30 items in a 'Ten Items or Less' line at the supermarket, I'm likely to squeeze ahead of you and ask if you know how to read.

    Speaking of knowing how to read, have you found yet where in Ross' paper he explicitly indicates that thinking can be physical?

    ReplyDelete
  25. "I'm not the one using my biases to "prove" there is a God. When I do something like that, you'll have a legitimate point."

    Presumbly you have some conclusion/statement C which you are arguing for here. Objecting to an argument requires reasons to justify the objection. Which means you are presenting an argument. That, I think, was what pck was referring to.

    ReplyDelete
  26. DJ:
    One of my pet peeves is drivers who block crosswalks. They do that to me, I slam my fist on their hood.

    What you do on this blog is pretty much the intellectual equivalent of that. Except what is being blocked is the acceptance of your confused and inconsistent views of nature and reality.

    It's ironic that 'Glenn' and 'pck' suggest that 'Don Jindra' is the one who may not be who he seems to be here.

    Neither of us suggested that. I talked about my experiences with other gnus. But thanks for confirming that you are exactly who I thought you might be. (Own worst enemy and all that.)

    ReplyDelete
  27. DJ:
    If you believe that then Existence (nature) certainly needs no First Cause to make it 'happen.'

    It's funny, even though you correctly capitalize "Existence" and correctly put "happen" in quotes, you still don't get the double meaning of "cause" in the expressions "secondary causes" and "First Cause". Therefore, this is still a mischaracterization of the cosmological argument (whether one believes it or not).

    Nature doesn't happen. Events and change in nature happen. The Big Bang was not the first event in nature. It was not an event at all. Rather, it was the actualization of nature. The First Cause doesn't make things happen, it provides the actuality needed so that anything can happen at all. It is not the first link in any chain of changes in nature. It is a bracket around all such chains, underlying them, not event-causing them. Hence the expression "causation in an ontological sense".

    Nature does not provide a reason for its own Existence. Thus we need to appeal to something which (ultimately) actualizes nature. We call this ultimate Actualizer the First Cause. The FC, being ultimate, cannot itself have been actualized, because a transformation from nothing into something is logically impossible. So it must be unactualized Actuality itself. Something that is unactualized can only be eternal (in the sense that it is beyond time, not that it has existed for an infinite length of time). The FC is called "necessary" because the Existence of nature (which is recognizable to us from secondary being and change), as we have just seen, necessarily leads to the idea of unactualized Actuality itself, called the First Cause, which is pure Reality.)

    I predict you'll back away from that statement (like with with 'E' and 'e') and claim it means x when applied to me but -x when applied to you.

    I corrected myself since I had not been careful enough and written something that could be interpreted as containing the same error you keep making -- conflating Being and being/becoming (or disavowing Being altogether). To interpret this as me using a double standard is ridiculous.

    You're begging the question. There is no 'becoming.' That's my position.

    It's not. Your position so far has been that there is no Being. "Becoming" refers to change as well as being (in the sense of secondary causation). Which you have claimed are the only things that matter in ontology. You are so confused about the use of certain words that you don't even recognize your own "position" anymore. You have not argued anything yet, you have only made assertions, and often very badly phrased ones. As the example above shows.

    I'm not the one using my biases to "prove" there is a God. When I do something like that, you'll have a legitimate point.

    According to you, any human distinction is biased because it is of human origin, and therefore "subjective". Thus, according to your own standards, you have used "your biases" constantly and continuously and all your arguments are null and void. You did not answer my challenge to name a concept which has no biases and has therefore, as you put it, "a basis in the real world".

    BLS:
    Objecting to an argument requires reasons to justify the objection. Which means you are presenting an argument. That, I think, was what pck was referring to.

    Exactly.

    ReplyDelete
  28. DJ:
    You're applying Aristotle's causes to this example -- his distinctions between material and efficient causes.

    Yes, because that is my point. Except that I didn't say anything about efficient causes. I said that "basketballs cause scoring" and "flammability causes safety measures" can only be thought of as examples of material causation. Which is an Aristotelian notion. If you want to refute this, you need to explain why these examples do not match Aristotle's definition of "material cause".

    You're not applying a modern distinction.

    Right. Because a modern (= event-based) conception of causation does clearly not apply to scoring in basketball being caused by (the mere existence of) basketballs. The existence of basketballs is not an event. And even if it was, it would still only be a material necessity to scoring, it would not necessitate the event of scoring. The latter, however, is required by modern concepts of causation. Of course you have denied that modern causation requires events A to necessitate events B. But that is simply you getting modern causation wrong. The concept of causation you apply -- "every N without which X wouldn't have happened is a cause of X" -- is completely and entirely Aristotelian, not modern. If you don't believe me, read the modern literature on causation.

    If the 'modern' way of talking about causes does away with these distinctions then all cause is simply cause.

    This is confused and vacuous because "then all cause is simply cause" is a self-referential expression. It explains or clarifies nothing. It's word salad. Yes, modern causes "do away with [most of Aristotle's] distinctions". Modern causes and effects drop most of the distinctions used by Aristotle. They leave us with a notion of causation which is merely partially congruent with Aristotle's efficient causes. This is a problem, not an asset, as the last 400 years of unsuccessful attempts to characterize all causation in terms of events have shown.

    To claim moderns see causes as "reasons and explanations" is vague to say the least.

    Nonsense. Causes are inextricably linked to reasons and explanations. A causing B in any modern sense of "cause" is part of the explanation of B. To attempt to deny this is ridiculous. There is nothing vague about it.

    So either you a) show how the mere existence of basketballs causes scoring in an event-based sense (chances of success: 0%), or b) we are forced to conclude that you are using "cause" in Aristotle's (material) sense. Unless you can meet the challenge of a), it is perfectly fair to ascribe b) to you. There aren't enough car hoods in the world to slam your fist onto to make these conceptual problems go away.

    ReplyDelete
  29. DJ:
    That's relativism in the worst sense. You're saying any conceptual framework will do. We're free to create them like rules of a game. Nothing is right or wrong other that what we say is right and wrong.

    Please explain what "right" and "wrong" mean if they are divorced from their function and use in human language (and any associated non-linguistic human practices). Do you think that right and wrong are not human distinctions? What empirical evidence do you have for this claim?

    We are indeed free to create conceptual frameworks as we like. What could possibly stop us? Certainly not nature. CFs are not "like" the rules of a game, they are the rules of any game, including the formal games the sciences use, like mathematics and logic. They define what counts as right and wrong.[1] They define how we divide up and see the world. But this is not relativism, at least not in any worrisome sense. A problematic relativism would say that any CF produces notions which are equally valuable to us. And that is of course not true.

    Your problem here is that you make too much of your expression "any CF will do". It is undisputed (unless perhaps by some post-modernists) that not any CF will be useful to us. In that sense, it is true that not any CF "will do". Nevertheless, no CF is right or wrong. To claim this is a category error. Theories (based of CFs) can be right or wrong. CFs themselves cannot, just like the game of chess cannot be right or wrong. If a chess player altered the rules of chess so that the king now moved two squares at a time instead of one, that would not show that chess player to be a relativist in any "dangerous" sense.

    ---

    [1] If you don't believe this, I await your definitions of absolute notions of right and wrong. But remember you can't use human notions or even human language, because according to you that would introduce bias.

    ReplyDelete
  30. DJ:
    I'll bet I know a lot more engineers than you two do. It's hard to characterize us although the media loves to do it.

    You'd lose that bet. And software engineers are not real engineers anyway. They only think they are. Not hard to characterize either. Blue jeans, white socks, black shoes (unless they are alternative types, then it's sandals and shirts with colourful prints). Overblown confidence, mostly unjustified, particularly about "seeing things as they really are". Eager to tell others they are wrong, not very eager to correct their own mistakes. Of course there are exceptions, but they're rare.

    ReplyDelete
  31. @Don Jindra
    Do you think that there is a First Cause? If not, why not?

    Do you think that the First Cause is God? If not, why not?

    ReplyDelete
  32. DJ:
    it's preposterous to think we consult a lofty conceptual framework prior to focusing our attention on opening a door.

    Nobody "consults" anything when they open a door. This is a typical Jindra reply, off-topic and derailing the conversation into previously unimplied side issues. It's just a visceral reaction to having the word "preposterous" thrown in your way. What we get is another fist on the hood.

    ReplyDelete
  33. BLS,

    "Grass lacks the behavior which we define as happy. But, the question implies the opposite, that it does indeed possess the behavior which we call happy. Thus we have one statement which implies A and one that implies not A, the definition of a logical contradiction."

    It's possible that on some distant planet there exists a life form we could classify as a grass but also seems to have emotional states. There's no logical reason this could not be the case.


    Now, what could we observe in nature to confirm or deny that the definition of contingent does not apply to it? I don't think that a contingent thing necessarily has to go in or out of existence at some point in time, so looking at that won't aid the issue. What data could we collect in this matter by merely observing things?

    I think if observations seem to show things do not go in or out of existence, we have no good reason to say those things are contingent (in an ontological sense). It's like if observations of grass don't show grass as having emotions, there's no good reason to say grass could be happy on planet earth.


    "Presumably you have some conclusion/statement C which you are arguing for here. Objecting to an argument requires reasons to justify the objection. Which means you are presenting an argument. That, I think, was what pck was referring to."

    I'm definitely confident of my arguments. Yet I don't claim proof in these matters. That's the difference.



    Glenn,

    "If it is the crosswalk which blocks the car, then, since in that case it is the crosswalk which has it in for you, maybe next time you should stomp on the crosswalk rather than pound the hood of the car."

    Maybe next time I'll do both, just in case. :)


    "have you found yet where in Ross' paper he explicitly indicates that thinking can be physical?"

    Not yet. So I doubt he did consider it.

    ReplyDelete
  34. pck,

    "I talked about my experiences with other gnus."

    Occasionally you group me in with the gnus. When I drop off the list, how long do I get to stay there? :)


    "you still don't get the double meaning of 'cause' in the expressions 'secondary causes' and 'First Cause'. Therefore, this is still a mischaracterization of the cosmological argument (whether one believes it or not)."

    I get the double meaning. I repeatedly point out 'secondary causes' fall into the category of the real whereas 'First Cause' falls into the category of fantasy.


    "The First Cause doesn't make things happen, it provides the actuality needed so that anything can happen at all."

    Begging of the question, pure and simple. No proof required. It's merely asserted. This assertion *must* be the case. Thanks.


    "Nature does not provide a reason for its own Existence."

    Nether does that Actualizer, God. As I say, this is a rhetorical shell game. That's all it is, no matter complaints like:

    "The FC, being ultimate, cannot itself have been actualized, because a transformation from nothing into something is logically impossible."

    That's not logic. That's, at best, definition. I assert nature is ultimate and there's no good reason to think otherwise.


    "'Becoming' refers to change as well as being (in the sense of secondary causation)."

    I have no problem with 'becoming' when it means nothing more than matter transforming into different forms of matter. So water becomes ice. But when you use 'Being' with 'becoming' you mean a 'becoming' that I reject. You mean that nature must necessarily come into or be externally held in a state of being. I keep asking for evident that this must be so. I get assertions in return (FC "provides the actuality needed so that anything can happen at all").

    ReplyDelete
  35. pck,

    "According to you, any human distinction is biased because it is of human origin, and therefore 'subjective'. Thus, according to your own standards, you have used "your biases" constantly and continuously and all your arguments are null and void."

    That's not quite what I've said. I've warned -- not that you guys should need to be warned -- that our biases can mislead us. But our biases can be minimized.


    "You did not answer my challenge to name a concept which has no biases and has therefore, as you put it, 'a basis in the real world'.

    I think there's minimal bias in calculating the speed of light.


    "If you want to refute this, you need to explain why these examples do not match Aristotle's definition of 'material cause'."

    My point is that you're free to view the world through that definitional framework. I'm free to view that framework as arbitrary and irrelevant, if not downright misleading.


    "a modern (= event-based) conception of causation does clearly not apply to scoring in basketball being caused by (the mere existence of) basketballs."

    I'm not interested in what you claim is a 'modern' conception of causation. I'm interested in what actually takes place. I've not said that mere existence of basketballs causes scoring. So I don't need to show how the mere existence of basketballs causes scoring. That would be counter to my position. Mere existence of basketball players does not cause scoring either. All scoring depends on an infinite number of causes, including both players and basketballs. It's human bias (aka, a misleading conceptual framework) to focus merely on a player as the ultimate or primary cause.


    "[Forgetting Aristotle's causes] is a problem, not an asset, as the last 400 years of unsuccessful attempts to characterize all causation in terms of events have shown.

    Well, I've looked around at what Mama and Papa Bear have done to the cave and I consider it an impressive success.


    "Causes are inextricably linked to reasons and explanations."

    Causes *are* reasons and explanations. This is both a modern and ancient way of thinking. Your attempt to pin the blame for who-knows- what on modernity is out of left field.

    ReplyDelete
  36. pck,

    "Blue jeans, white socks, black shoes (unless they are alternative types, then it's sandals and shirts with colourful prints)."

    I wear boring khakis and plain, long sleeve shirts when I work in an office. Most engineers I've worked with dress fairly average. But when I work at home, which I do now, 95% of the time I wear a white T-shirt and black running shorts. I throw on cotton sweats (usually gray) when it's cold. Everywhere I wear New Balance 992s (American made) with white socks. My attire is a hangover from my days in athletics.


    "not very eager to correct their own mistakes."

    This tells me you have superficial knowledge of software engineers. Most of our time is spent correcting either our mistakes or others'. One thing any competent software engineer should know, and never forget, is how fallible s/he is. The most important thing to think about, always, is what could possibly go wrong, because it will go wrong.


    "And software engineers are not real engineers anyway. They only think they are."

    No, we're poets and philosophers. We write verse in 'for' loop tempo. We ask all the important 'if' statements. We paint images in hexadecimal and dabble in binary for the finer strokes. We fix the miserably clumsy problems 'real' engineers either missed or were too lazy or too cheap to handle themselves. Look around, it's our world you inhabit. It's elegant because we willed it, like Schopenhauer. :)

    ReplyDelete
  37. DJ:
    "Nature does not provide a reason for its own Existence."
    Nether does that Actualizer, God.


    You have two choices: a) Believe in magic. "Nature just exists, period." Or b) There must be a reason for nature's Existence. This reason is called God. At this point "God" is just another name for that reason. That God must be pure Actuality follows logically and by argument.

    Begging of the question, pure and simple. No proof required. It's merely asserted.

    I explained it. I'm also getting the impression that you insert these "begging the question" accusations completely arbitrarily. You never care to explain which question exactly is being begged. This has happened multiple times now.

    I assert nature is ultimate and there's no good reason to think otherwise.

    So you believe in magic. That is settled then. We also note that, once again, simply assert your belief that there is no good reason to think otherwise. You still have to argue anything, after God knows how many posts.

    But when you use 'Being' with 'becoming' you mean a 'becoming' that I reject.

    Since becoming presupposes Existence, there is no way to have becoming without it. Something that does not exist cannot be transformed. Should be easy enough to understand.

    I get assertions in return (FC "provides the actuality needed so that anything can happen at all").

    Same point as above. Actuality is a logical necessity for anything to happen. No reality => no events, changes, etc. A truly trivial thing to understand.

    ReplyDelete
  38. DJ:
    I think there's minimal bias in calculating the speed of light.

    First of all, the speed of light is not calculated, it's measured. No theory predicts it. Or this is how it used to be. The metre is now defined in terms of the speed of light, so the modern way is to fix the speed of light by definition.

    Second, all concepts and actions involved in measuring the speed of light (or the metre) are human concepts and actions. The procedure is objective, but not free of human experience and conceptualization. It's not absolute. But absolute truth is what you were looking for. So how biased is the speed of light? I guess that is fixed by your gut.

    (The entire problem is of course a pseudo-problem which arises from your conflation of conceptual frameworks and theories. But there is no hope that you will ever see the light on that, let alone measure the speed of it.)

    My point is that you're free to view the world through that definitional framework.

    This was never your stance until now. Previously you always explicitly discouraged any use of Aristotle.

    I'm free to view that [Aristotle's] framework as arbitrary and irrelevant, if not downright misleading.

    No, you're not. You have to explain why a framework is misleading and what precisely it is that makes it irrelevant. Which you have not done. At all. And since you have been using material causation yourself the whole time, you have dug yourself into a hole twice as deep.

    I'm not interested in what you claim is a 'modern' conception of causation.

    You have appealed to modern causation in your denials. That makes you interested in them by definition. This is ridiculous.

    I've not said that mere existence of basketballs causes scoring.

    That's exactly what you have said. You claimed that without bballs there is no scoring, so bballs cause scoring. There is no rowing back from this.

    All scoring depends on an infinite number of causes, including both players and basketballs

    And there you go again, asserting that bballs are causes of scoring. Apparently you assume that "cause of scoring" = "the only cause of scoring", but neither you nor I have used that equality anywhere.

    It's human bias (aka, a misleading conceptual framework) to focus merely on a player as the ultimate or primary cause.

    Irrelevant, because nobody did that.

    Well, I've looked around at what Mama and Papa Bear have done to the cave and I consider it an impressive success.

    How is that a reply to my claim that the attempt to explain all causation using event-based notions has failed? Is this a copy/paste error?

    Causes *are* reasons and explanations. This is both a modern and ancient way of thinking

    That's what I said, and what you denied. (DJ: To claim moderns see causes as "reasons and explanations" is vague to say the least.) Who are you and what have you done to the real Don Jindra?

    ReplyDelete
  39. DJ:
    [...] My attire is a hangover from my days in athletics.

    TMI.

    This tells me you have superficial knowledge of software engineers. Most of our time is spent correcting either our mistakes or others'.

    I have worked in software companies (coding & project planning) for more than a decade. I have used and programmed computers for more than 3 decades. The fact that so much time is wasted on badly written, badly planned and badly documented code is mostly the result of a combination of bad education and toxic personalities. The average software engineer is not an intellectual hero, nor a social delight, to say the least.

    One thing any competent software engineer should know, and never forget, is how fallible s/he is. The most important thing to think about, always, is what could possibly go wrong, because it will go wrong.

    All true, but in practice, this is the exception, not the rule.

    No, we're poets and philosophers. We write verse in 'for' loop tempo. We ask all the important 'if' statements. We paint images in hexadecimal and dabble in binary for the finer strokes. We fix the miserably clumsy problems 'real' engineers either missed or were too lazy or too cheap to handle themselves. Look around, it's our world you inhabit. It's elegant because we willed it, like Schopenhauer.

    Delusions of grandeur much? Anybody who knows what goes on beneath the shiny veneer of modern tech knows that "elegance" is pretty much the biggest lie conceivable (in software and also in mathematics). People who get taken in by prose such as this are usually between 15 and 25 years old. Then they either grow up because they have seen reality, or they remain children for the rest of their time. The number of programmers who have designed truly impressive things can be counted on two hands. But the average coder is vastly overrated. As are their underdeveloped personalities. I'm not saying "write off all people in software". I'm saying there is work to be done. Lots of it. The first step is to fix the Dunning-Kruger issues.

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  40. "Coyne asserts in passing that laws are 'simply observed regularities that hold in our universe' (p. 158) -- completely oblivious to the problem that this sort of account of laws threatens to strip them of the explanatory power that he needs for them to have if they are to count as even a prima facie alternative to theism."

    I would have rewritten that:

    "Coyne asserts in passing that laws are 'simply observed regularities that hold in our universe' (p. 158)." This is true. There's a Law of Nature that explains why a dropped pencil will hit the ground. It's an observed regularity. But Coyne is also implicitly saying, based on the evidence drawn from what we know of Natural Law's collection of observed regularities, from gravity to the nature of germs to the general flourishing of biological life, that no god is needed or required to explain them or account for them (and no evidence has been provided showing an incontrovertible link). Yes, Coyne would concede that nobody knows (yet) how life emerged, but we do know how life flourishes: via evolution by natural selection—and a proper understanding of this process tells us there is no Guiding Force "behind" it. The whimsical vicissitudes of natural selection—a) we're not clones of each other; b) mutations—serve as evidence that there isn't any behind-the-scenes god who directs or interferes (or deistically takes a hands-off approach). There are observed regularities—new stars are born, galaxies collide, all life evolved—and there is no evidence of a super-natural "happening" or interference to explain them. Coyne indirectly assures us that if we ever do figure out how life emerged on this planet, a story about a tyrannical, murderous god who kills a lot of people (in the Old Book) but then sends a kindly “savior” (in the New Book) who then gets murdered in a gruesome instance of blood sacrifice (but comes back to life!) won’t be part of the answer.

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  41. Hmmm...

    Hey Barry, just out of curiosity...what do you do for a living?

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  42. @Barry Lyons

    There's a Law of Nature that explains why a dropped pencil will hit the ground. It's an observed regularity

    Why does this "Law of Nature" even exist?
    In my humble opinion only two possibilities.
    1) The laws came up by chance
    OR
    2) They were brought into existence by an all powerful and intelligent God.

    But Coyne is also implicitly saying, based on the evidence drawn from what we know of Natural Law's collection of observed regularities, from gravity to the nature of germs to the general flourishing of biological life, that no god is needed or required to explain them or account for them (and no evidence has been provided showing an incontrovertible link

    Yeah evidence that only describes how processes in nature work. Its like looking at how an internal combustion engine works but denying that Jean J. Lenoir existed.

    Yes, Coyne would concede that nobody knows (yet) how life emerged, but we do know how life flourishes: via evolution by natural selection—and a proper understanding of this process tells us there is no Guiding Force "behind" it. The whimsical vicissitudes of natural selection—a) we're not clones of each other; b) mutations—serve as evidence that there isn't any behind-the-scenes god who directs or interferes (or deistically takes a hands-off approach)

    All you are describing here are processes of nature or how things work in it. That is an entirely different to the why question(s).

    There are observed regularities—new stars are born, galaxies collide, all life evolved—and there is no evidence of a super-natural "happening" or interference to explain them.

    Awesome is'nt it? seems to me to be God's canvas. God is leaving His finger prints all over creation, maybe all we need to do is look.

    Coyne indirectly assures us that if we ever do figure out how life emerged on this planet, a story about a tyrannical, murderous god who kills a lot of people (in the Old Book) but then sends a kindly “savior” (in the New Book) who then gets murdered in a gruesome instance of blood sacrifice (but comes back to life!) won’t be part of the answer.

    Actually what if life was started by an all intelligent, all powerful and Loving God who gave His children the free will to choose their own paths. Maybe, just maybe, out of freely choosing not to love God they revolt against Him. If I were a revolting child the first thing I would do is to take things out of context in the Bible and try to discredit it. Would'nt you?

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  43. Jason,

    Your "humble opinion" doesn't mean anything in lieu of evidence.

    "Why" questions open the door to speculation and make-believe (otherwise known as "theology"). The answers to "how" questions are more enthralling because they get to the meat of things.

    "Seems to me to be God's canvas." You have no evidence for that. It's just a belief.

    "Actually what if life was started by an all intelligent, all powerful and Loving God who gave His children the free will to choose their own paths." You have no evidence for that. It's just a belief.

    The charge of saying something "out of context" is an admittance that things can't be taken at face value. It's a cousin to saying "oh, that's just a metaphor."

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  44. Barry,

    Your "humble opinion" doesn't mean anything in lieu of evidence.

    You are absolutely right and I would not have it any other way. The question I asked was why laws of nature exist and gave you two reason why I logically think they do.

    "Why" questions open the door to speculation and make-believe (otherwise known as "theology"). The answers to "how" questions are more enthralling because they get to the meat of things.

    Don't get me wrong the "how" questions are fascinating and should be persued with all we have but the "why" questions are the ones that give us deeper meaning. They are open to speculation only if you do not have evidence for them and contrary to popular opinion that is not the case with a belief in God. Why do I love my family? Why am I willing to risk my life to help a fellow human in need? Why do I love my country? Why do I believe in what I believe in? These are the questions that get to deeper truths, much more deeper than the "how" questions.

    "Seems to me to be God's canvas." You have no evidence for that. It's just a belief.
    Actually what if life was started by an all intelligent, all powerful and Loving God who gave His children the free will to choose their own paths." You have no evidence for that. It's just a belief.


    Yes it is a belief but why do you think that I have that belief without evidence or have no evidence?

    The charge of saying something "out of context" is an admittance that things can't be taken at face value.

    I totally agree things cannot be taken at face value they need to be studied and understood in the context around it, in other words the why questions need to be asked in order to get deeper in the Word.

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  45. Barry Lyons:
    There's a Law of Nature that explains why a dropped pencil will hit the ground. It's an observed regularity.

    Jason has already commented on this, but I think it's worth to emphasize again that the actual kind of explanation that we get from a theory of gravity is created together with the theory. As Jason points out, a theory of gravity does not explain why things fall to the ground when dropped. That they fall is a pre-theoretical observation which acts as input for a theory that quantifies the falling. A question that modern physics answers is "How fast do bodies fall?", not "Why do they fall at all?"

    Coyne would concede that nobody knows (yet) how life emerged, but we do know how life flourishes: via evolution by natural selection

    Natural selection is one factor in the game of evolution. The primacy of natural selection has been called into question, in particular by the last three or four decades of modern biology. Coyne and Dawkins keep denying this, but the number of fundamentalist Darwinists seems to be decreasing. (The term "fundamentalist Darwinist" actually does a disservice to Darwin, who was much more careful and reluctant about making natural selection the only game in town. In one of the later editions of the "Origin of the Species" he added some text that warned against this sort of speculation.)

    and a proper understanding of this process tells us there is no Guiding Force "behind" it.

    Which is a funny thing for a determinist and free will denier like Coyne to say. If Coyne took his own beliefs seriously, he would come to the conclusion that the world is one big 3D movie that is nothing but the product of external forces making happen whatever happens. It would be the ultimate in guidance, not the absence of it.

    Then again, if his beliefs were true, he could not really conclude anything, since whatever he "concluded" would not be due to any effort of his own, human agency being impossible under such conditions.

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  46. Barry,

    If someone really wanted to avoid asking "why" questions, they would offer no opinion on the existence of God, one way or the other. Gnus, on the other hand, quite explicitly do give an answer to the the big "why" questions, albeit an astonishingly asinine and incurious one: "No reason at all!"

    Presumably that's what they mean by the "magic" of reality.

    I see that you are a big fan of "evidence," so, pray tell, what sort of evidence would you consider adequate to belief in God? And note the capital G; not a lot of interest in "god" around here.

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  47. pck,

    "Nature just exists, period." -- Yes. I can kick that dirt. That's not me kicking magic. Without magic, you claim dirt would disappear. You're the magician.


    "Something that does not exist cannot be transformed. Should be easy enough to understand."

    It's easy to understand that nature exists. That we know as much as we know anything. I've already said it makes sense to talk about existing stuff transforming into existing stuff (water to ice). It makes no sense to talk about non-existing stuff transforming or becoming existing stuff.


    "The procedure is objective, but not free of human experience and conceptualization. It's not absolute. But absolute truth is what you were looking for."

    Looking for absolute truth is not the same as claiming to have found it. We may not have the speed of light exactly correct, but we're extremely close. It's irrational to claim slight error throws everything into subjective limbo. Yet that appears to be your strategy.


    "You have to explain why a framework is misleading and what precisely it is that makes it irrelevant. Which you have not done. At all."

    False. I've explained directional chains of temporal causation are merely a human POV -- not human bias with slight error, but bias with fundamental error. I've explained that temporal cause and so-called ontic cause are two fundamentally different things, and that there is no evidence for this dreamy ontic terminology.


    "Apparently you assume that 'cause of scoring' = 'the only cause of scoring'"

    No, this is precisely what I deny. I deny the player is the only cause of scoring. I deny the basketballs are the only cause of scoring. But for the A-T framework we must accept that the player is the only cause truly worth considering, and that the causal chain has a forward direction from him. That's my primary objection. The human perspective regarding direction -- that perceived one directional flow -- does not exist in nature.


    "How is that a reply to my claim that the attempt to explain all causation using event-based notions has failed?"

    In what way do you think the event-based notion of causation has failed? I look at the technology that has resulted from that notion and I'm wondering where failure hides.


    "I'm also getting the impression that you insert these 'begging the question' accusations completely arbitrarily. You never care to explain which question exactly is being begged. This has happened multiple times now."

    You should know I do not accept "potentiality" and "actuality" as explanations. At best, they're descriptions. I sure don't accept that nature has to be "actualized" to "be" or to do anything at all. This is precisely the issue in question, no matter what terminology is used to hide it. I assert that as far as we know, and as far as reason can inform us, nature just is. "I am that I am" works just as well for nature as it does for God.

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  48. pck,

    "People who get taken in by prose such as this are usually between 15 and 25 years old."

    Hey, if I can impress a few 15 to 25 year old kids at my age, I'll take it. OTOH, your venom against software engineers might impress a few curmudgeons. I put that smile on the end of my paragraph for a reason. Your extreme negativity demanded a positive, playful response. The truth is somewhere between those pictures.

    You may not think much of software engineers but the market thinks rather highly of us. Apparently your values differ from the market. The market wins big on this.

    But software engineers along with all engineers, doctors, mechanics, carpenters and even plumbers are at a disadvantage. Our stuff has to work. Not so for dabblers in philosophy. Philosophers have it easy. Look under their hood, rarely will you find more than dust.

    So I wonder what you, as champion of ancient philosophy, think you could possibly offer software engineers? Do you really think you have the tools to 1) judge their "underdeveloped personalities" and 2) educate and/or develop them personally or professionally? How will you make of them, men with chests? Will you or anyone here become that new prophet to save us from Weber's (and maybe your) prediction of mechanized petrification, convulsive self-importance, "specialists without spirit, sensualists without heart?" I can promise you one thing, if you can't inspire those 15 to 25 year old kids, you have no hope. In your many responses to me, I doubt very much that you'll ever inspire. I'm very confident you won't give lessons on humility. Your pop-psych application of Dunning-Kruger sticks to wannabe philosophers and prophets as well.

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  49. [I don't understand Blogger. I don't see a "reply to" thingy to click on for each reply. So I'll just leave some scattered responses for the three replies I see above.]
    ----

    I'll admit that some "why" questions are just "how" questions said in another manner: "Why does a pencil fall to the ground?" is a good example. The "why" of the fall is answered in HOW it falls and in understanding what force brings it to the ground. Yes, I suppose one could then ask, "Why do they fall at all?", but that strikes me as the kind of question that opens the door to intellectual mischief: God is ultimately responsible for it just as He is responsible for everything else that happens or occurs on Earth (or some variation of that baseless assertion). More to the existential point, why does ANYthing exist at all? That's another good question. Well, let me just say that Lawrence Krauss is closer to getting an answer than any fatuous theologian with his inane Biblical exegesis is.

    "Why do I love my family?" "Why do I love my country?" Good questions. Again, Coyne's implicit point is that answers to these questions will evince no super-natural causes (deliberate hyphen for emphasis).

    "That [pencils] fall is a pre-theoretical observation which acts as input for a theory that quantifies the falling." That sounds like some highfalutin overthinking to me. Let me simplify the problem: An object falls, someone wonders why it does, an investigation ensues, and an answer is found. On the other hand, there are questions like, "How did life first emerge?" In this case, someone wonders why it did, an investigation ensues -- and no answer has been found (yet). As I said in my first response, if and when we do find out, a ludicrous blood-sacrifice story won't be part of the answer.

    The laws of nature. My point and Coyne's point and the point of all secularists is that these laws exist as they do without any help or influence from a super-natural cause or influence. There is only the natural world. There is nothing "super" about it.

    The primacy of evolution by natural selection has not been called into question. In terms of understanding how life flourishes and propagates it is the only game in town. More to the point, evolution by natural selection underpins the life sciences (biology, genetics, ecology). To put this another way, if evolution were not true, the life sciences would not exist and function as they do. Said another way, the modern life sciences are a direct result and a consequence of the fact that evolution is true.

    As for what evidence I would consider adequate to believe in God, I'm not sure, but I will say this: It would be evidence that would have nothing to do with ME. In other words, a voice "appearing" in my head or having some personal "revelation" would not count. It would have to be an epic happening of some kind experienced by many people at once. But "personal testimony"? Yikes. That's when my bullshit detector lights up!

    By the way, if anyone's interested, you can follow me on Twitter. My handle there is: @lyonsnyc. Some of my latest tweets are in response to a nitwit who can't get it into his thick skull that the emergence of life (abiogenesis) and how life flourishes (evolution) are two separate subjects. He insists that evolution is about how life emerged! Crazy! Oh, and then there's this other guy who recently told me that the sun orbits Earth (yes, you read that right) in addition to the expected nonsense that Earth is less than 10,000 years old. And then there are those believers who tell me that atheists can't be good without God because, hey, where else do people derive their morals except from God? Wow, the stuff I have to contend with on Twitter!

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  50. DJ:
    "Nature just exists, period." -- Yes. I can kick that dirt. That's not me kicking magic. Without magic, you claim dirt would disappear. You're the magician.

    Nice try. Complete drivel. Word salad.

    We may not have the speed of light exactly correct, but we're extremely close.

    Completely misses the point of what I was talking about. Also misses the point of what you were talking about.

    I've explained directional chains of temporal causation are merely a human POV -- not human bias with slight error, but bias with fundamental error

    Wrong. You have said it, not explained it.

    Me: "Apparently you assume that 'cause of scoring' = 'the only cause of scoring'"
    DK: No, this is precisely what I deny.


    I know that you deny it. And yet your "argument" only made sense if one assumed that "cause = only cause".

    In what way do you think the event-based notion of causation has failed?

    I have explained that several times. Reread the posts. Your own notion of causality fails if one tries to understand it as event-based.

    You should know I do not accept "potentiality" and "actuality" as explanations. At best, they're descriptions.

    They're neither. They're a way to talk about change. We all use these concepts on a daily basis, including you.

    "I am that I am" works just as well for nature as it does for God.

    It doesn't. Nature is contingent. That which ultimately actualizes nature is necessary.

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  51. DJ:
    Hey, if I can impress a few 15 to 25 year old kids at my age, I'll take it.

    It is no secret that you are very eager to impress.

    I put that smile on the end of my paragraph for a reason.

    I think we all know your kind of smile very well.

    You may not think much of software engineers but the market thinks rather highly of us.

    Not according to the salaries the average code monkey is paid. And there is no "us". The last thing software autists, I mean engineers, are capable of is sticking together.

    Philosophers have it easy.

    Try making a living from philosophy for a year. Then come back and apologize.

    So I wonder what you, as champion of ancient philosophy, think you could possibly offer software engineers? Do you really think you have the tools to 1) judge their "underdeveloped personalities" and 2) educate and/or develop them personally or professionally?

    Yes and yes. I have done so successfully for many years (with people from all walks of life, not just coders). Why can I do this? Because I know how to think conceptually and because I know how important language and clarification are. These are the same skills which are needed in philosophy, ancient and modern, but they come in useful pretty much everywhere. The confusions of others used to be my own confusions too. The difference between me and you is that I put the work in to get better, while you still operate on the level of google keyword searches. Hence the abundance of word salad. Every now and then you accidentally hit a right note, but that's about it.

    if you can't inspire those 15 to 25 year old kids, you have no hope

    Good thing then that I have done just that. You have a funny way of writing these things as if I had somehow denied them. The kids will get inspired one way or another. If they get inspired by the Jindras, we're going to see even more social autism, pointless aggression, desperate self-aggrandizing and loss of personal dignity.

    Your pop-psych application of Dunning-Kruger sticks to wannabe philosophers and prophets as well.

    The problem is certainly not limited to software people. It's everywhere. Dunning-Kruger is very real, nothing pop-psych about that. You're a poster boy for it.

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  52. DJ,

    You may not think much of software engineers but the market thinks rather highly of us. Apparently your values differ from the market. The market wins big on this.

    That the market wins big on it tends to overshadow a 'disconnect'. And that the market differs from the 'values' hinted at, pointed to or espoused by pck is partly why there is a 'disconnect'.

    "When we talk of architecture, we are talking about art as well as engineering. As Jim Coplien (1995) pointed out, Vitruvius, the classic Roman architect, characterized architecture as the joining of Commodity, Firmness, and Delight (Pollio 1960). In software engineering -- if there really be such a thing -- we have worked thoroughly on Firmness, some during the last 10 years on Commodity, and none on Delight. To the world of computer science, there can be no such thing as Delight because beauty and anything from the arts or the so-called soft part of human activity has nothing to do with science -- it is mere contingency.

    "But to take people out of software development is to leave it empty.

    "My purpose in writing these essays has been to glorify humanity in its struggle to remain human though the weight of science and management and business leans heavy on that struggle, sees it in opposition to elegance, efficiency, and profit."

    -- Gabriel, Richard, [Formal Causes] of Software.

    Not that pck seeks to "glorify humanity"; certainly not (and this is not a criticism; far from it). But, clearly, there is more -- a great deal more -- to things than the (so-called) elegance, efficiency and profit of science, management and business. Even within the specialized micro-world of software engineering.

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  53. Barry,

    Yes, I suppose one could then ask, "Why do they fall at all?", but that strikes me as the kind of question that opens the door to intellectual mischief: God is ultimately responsible for it just as He is responsible for everything else that happens or occurs on Earth (or some variation of that baseless assertion).

    I disagree that it opens up the door of “intellectual mischief” what ever that means. It actually opens up more possibilities of looking at reality. Just focussing on the “how” only partly shows us what reality is.

    More to the existential point, why does ANYthing exist at all? That's another good question. Well, let me just say that Lawrence Krauss is closer to getting an answer than any fatuous theologian with his inane Biblical exegesis is.

    More ink has been spilt on Lawrence Krauss, see here so I would not want to get into it, but don’t you think that the answer to “Why does ANYthing exist at all?” is a metaphysical one. That means metaphysics would be need to answer it.

    "Why do I love my family?" "Why do I love my country?" Good questions. Again, Coyne's implicit point is that answers to these questions will evince no super-natural causes (deliberate hyphen for emphasis).

    My point in asking you those questions were to show you that there is more to life then just quantifying/ measuring everything. The operative word being “love” which cannot be quantified and in and of itself cannot be answered by science since these are philosophical questions. You would need philosophy to answer them. Whether they lead to God or not is a whole other question.

    On the other hand, there are questions like, "How did life first emerge?" In this case, someone wonders why it did, an investigation ensues -- and no answer has been found (yet). As I said in my first response, if and when we do find out, a ludicrous blood-sacrifice story won't be part of the answer.

    How life first emerged has nothing to do with the redemption offered by Jesus Christ to you and me. Those are two different questions. Also calling it a “ludicrous blood-sacrifice story” without telling me why you think it is “ludicrous” is frankly being condescending.

    The laws of nature. My point and Coyne's point and the point of all secularists is that these laws exist as they do without any help or influence from a super-natural cause or influence. There is only the natural world. There is nothing "super" about it.

    Yeah and if laws exist then there is a need for a law giver since they cannot just appear out of nothing (and I mean philosophical “nothing” not the one physicists use).

    As for what evidence I would consider adequate to believe in God, I'm not sure, but I will say this: It would be evidence that would have nothing to do with ME. In other words, a voice "appearing" in my head or having some personal "revelation" would not count.

    I am sure that most people here are not appealing to personal revelation and neither am I. This is a philosophy blog after all, what do you think the evidence would be?

    It would have to be an epic happening of some kind experienced by many people at once

    Actually there is one incident that happened like this with the resurrection of Jesus. Maybe looking at the historical evidence for it would be a good place to start.

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  54. @DJ

    "It's possible that on some distant planet there exists a life form we could classify as a grass but also seems to have emotional states. There's no logical reason this could not be the case."

    But then that's equivocation, since the meaning of the sentence changes. If you are referring to alien grass, then the question is not illegitimate. However, if you are referring to Earth grass, then we end up with the contradiction again. And if we switch from contradiction to equivocation, then I still don't think the other question is parallel.

    "I think if observations seem to show things do not go in or out of existence, we have no good reason to say those things are contingent (in an ontological sense)."

    I'd argue that this is a point of contention, but for now I won't pursue the issue further.

    That's it for me.

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  55. Barry Lyons:
    I suppose one could then ask, "Why do they fall at all?", but that strikes me as the kind of question that opens the door to intellectual mischief: God is ultimately responsible for it just as He is responsible for everything else that happens or occurs on Earth

    The type of responsibility is of rather great importance in these matters. Until you get a better sense of how exactly Thomists or other philosophers think of God being involved in the world, you will only produce talk at cross purposes.

    Let me simplify the problem: An object falls, someone wonders why it does, an investigation ensues, and an answer is found.

    Congrats on oversimplifying and confusing the problem. No investigation has ever found an answer to why objects fall. All investigations (must) start with that as the explanandum. If that is "highfalutin' overthinking" to you, you should quit science immediately.

    The primacy of evolution by natural selection has not been called into question.

    It has. You're obviously unaware of the literature.

    My point and Coyne's point and the point of all secularists is that these laws exist as they do without any help or influence from a super-natural cause or influence.

    Explain then, how laws like gravitational attraction come to exist. To simply assert things is of no use.

    [Lots of nonsense about God, earth being 10000 years old etc.]

    Before making a big splash here, read some of the articles and perhaps also the comment boxes on this site. You're obviously new here and also rather new to life, so gather some experience before you explode with the same confusions so many others have already weighed down the discussions here with. If you just want to vent, go to Jerry Coyne's site, they love endless streams of ridicule and outrage there.

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  56. Me: All investigations (must) start with that as the explanandum.

    I forgot to add that the explanandum is then promptly changed, from "why do things fall" to "how fast" etc. Science is often inspired by qualities, but actually deals in quantities.

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  57. Glenn:
    Not that pck seeks to "glorify humanity"; certainly not (and this is not a criticism; far from it).

    Well, I've tried, but they're usually easier to admire from afar.

    All kidding aside, one certainly has to take people seriously in education. We have two terms in German, "Bildung" and "Ausbildung" which both translate as "education" in English. "Bildung" means "formation" in the sense of "becoming a fully formed human being", while "Ausbildung" has a connotation of "learning-by-rote". This is the key problem in education as I see it. Too much of the latter and too little of the former. Large parts of our schools and universities have adapted to the demands of job market (which doesn't know what's good for it) and exchanged Bildung for Ausbildung. This has been going on for decades and only in recent years have countercurrents begun to flow again. Still more of a trickle than a stream as of now.

    But, clearly, there is more -- a great deal more -- to things than the (so-called) elegance, efficiency and profit of science, management and business. Even within the specialized micro-world of software engineering.

    Exactly. I'm no teacher by training, but they let me teach an auxiliary math course at a grammar school for three years a while ago and it was one of the most valuable experiences I've ever had, as I got to witness the development of fifteen 16-19 year olds first hand. Injecting history and philosophy into the technical matters of math worked wonders for concentration and interest.

    I sometimes put things very bluntly and say that we have forgotten how to live. The kids at the grammar school had a good sense of that, even at their age. They knew something was missing from life but couldn't put a finger on what it was exactly, like so many of us. We would sometimes stay after class and just talk for another hour. I realized how much faster they have to grow up today than I did in the 70s and 80s and I thought things were going too fast even then. I admired them for their maturity, but also felt sorry that they were already worrying about being unemployed and whether they would have any money in retirement. Strange times.

    Thanks for the pdf link, very interesting, I will definitely look into it.

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  58. Two-part response (again, the odd problem with Blogger), one to Jason, one to pck.

    To Jason:

    "Intellectual mischief" refers to asserting (and inserting) make-believe responses into discussions as if they somehow serve as actual answers.

    Religions will never explain why anything exists at all. People like Stephen Hawking, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and, yes, Lawrence Krauss will get closer to the answer, whereas the hilarious theologians with their pretend-knowledge never will.

    Sure, "love" covers a range of ineffable feelings and emotions. But why do you think Christianity would explain such feelings? Feelings of love, affection, altruism, etc., predate the invention of Christianity. Consequently, Christianity has nothing fresh to add to a conversation about love (see "The Moral Animal" by Robert Wright).

    How is noting a blood sacrifice story condescending? Blood sacrifice stories have existed for thousands of years in all sorts of cultures. I'm just stating the obvious: Blood sacrifices are nothing more than delusional actions conducted by bewildered people in an attempt to pay humiliating obeisance to an unseen (fictional) god.

    Why does there need to be a Supernatural Being to explain the General Theory of Relativity? There is no evidence for such a supernatural being. Speaking of religious "evidence," I had a believer tell me the other day on Twitter that "all of existence" (his exact words) is evidence for an all-loving God. Hmm. Does this include flesh-eating bacteria? If so, God sounds like a dick to me.

    To pck,

    "No investigation has ever found an answer to why objects fall." Google "why do objects fall."

    Evolution has not been called into question. You're apparently unaware of how the modern life sciences function. Call up your local ecologist and have a good chat. S/he'll straighten you out.

    "Explain then, how laws like gravitational attraction come to exist." I can't. But you have a bigger problem: demonstrate how a SUPERnatural "element" explains it. You can't.

    There is no historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus (hint: The Bible is not evidence). But if you have evidence of risen, chatty corpses (yeah, there's more than one in That Book) that's drawn from sources OUTSIDE of the Bible, okay, fine, then you're talking. But right now you have nothing.

    Recommending other religious-oriented links won't help. The first order of business for any religious person before they talk about "God" or "angels" ("Satan" is a hoot!) or "holy" water (differential diagnosis, please) or "souls" (tell me where mine resides) or "prayer" (where's the telepathic channel in the brain?) is to point to the existence of a supernatural realm within which all these "things" and actions reside. You can't do it. Nobody can because there is no supernatural realm to existence. There is only the natural world and no other. Breaking News: Angels, holy water, and souls don't exist—except as pure ideas of the mind.

    Put away the Bible, ignore the crackpot theologians, and read something of serious intellectual value for a change. Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" is a good place to start. You might find yourself becoming a secular humanist in no time!

    Oh, another thing. Go do a Google search for "Laniakea." There's even a short video on this awesome galaxy superstructure. Just look at that image. Wow. Ponder the majesty of it for a moment and then ask yourself, "What relevance does Christianity have for intelligent and self-conscious (human-like) beings that might be living on the 'other side' of Laniakea?" Let me save you some time with a one-word answer: nothing.

    Christianity is fundamentally rooted in make-believe and nothing more. I should know: I was raised Catholic but then saw the secular light by my late 20s.

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  59. Barry,

    As for what evidence I would consider adequate to believe in God, I'm not sure...

    If you're going to demand evidence, don't you think you should be able to specify what that evidence would look like?

    Some of my latest tweets are in response to a nitwit who can't get it into his thick skull that the emergence of life (abiogenesis) and how life flourishes (evolution) are two separate subjects. He insists that evolution is about how life emerged! Crazy! Oh, and then there's this other guy who recently told me that the sun orbits Earth (yes, you read that right) in addition to the expected nonsense that Earth is less than 10,000 years old. And then there are those believers who tell me that atheists can't be good without God because, hey, where else do people derive their morals except from God? Wow, the stuff I have to contend with on Twitter!

    Sounds like you and your Twitter opponents are well matched.

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  60. Barry Lyons,

    Put away the Bible, ignore the crackpot theologians, and read something of serious intellectual value for a change. Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" is a good place to start. You might find yourself becoming a secular humanist in no time!

    I read DHW back in the 90s, and at no time since then have I become a secular humanist.

    Btw, at what level of intelligence must one be in order for popular science to constitute serious intellectual value?

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  61. Also, as far as brain candy goes, I don't think Laniakea has as much going for it as does the Horsehead Nebula.

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  62. Gottfried,

    As I said in an earlier comment, it would have to be some spectacular or epic event. But, see, what would that be? A booming voice from the clouds while walking in Times Square? That sounds ridiculous. An event in which a Law of Nature is shockingly suspended for all to see? That also sounds ridiculous. You're asking me to come up with an answer that sounds like something drawn from a fantasy or sci-fi movie. But seeing that the Bible is a work of fantasy (literature, properly speaking), what with that inane story about how humans were "created" (we evolved, people!), the story of clueless Noah and his stupid Ark, the talk about angels, that story about the assclown who lived in an aquatic creature, it makes sense that I would respond to fantasy with fantasy. But I just can't think of anything compelling right now.

    But if you feel that you have trapped me because I haven't given a sufficient answer, well, perhaps you have. But remember, the onus isn't on me to have an experience to prove God's existence. The onus is on those believers of various religions in the world (which is the "true" one?) with various gods (which is the "real" one?) to demonstrate that THEIR god or gods (see Hinduism) exist(s). To cite a lyric from a 10cc song, "Two thousand years and he ain't show yet; we kept his seat warm and the table set."

    As for Twitter, I am well matched when it comes to talking about books, music (Beethoven is my favorite composer), politics (JEB!: Just elect Bernie!), and other nonreligious subjects. But when I see a tweet from someone who says that atheists have no morals, or that I can't be good without God, or that "Satan" exists (a favorite notion for many), or that atheism is a religion (another favorite one: snore), I "have" to jump in an attempt to straighten things out. I usually fail because these believers are way deep into their rabbit holes. Too bad. But I do enjoy trying to knock some sense into them.

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  63. Barry,

    "Intellectual mischief" refers to asserting (and inserting) make-believe responses into discussions as if they somehow serve as actual answers.

    Philosophy, laws of logic and good old common sense lets us know what is make belief and what is an actual answer.

    Religions will never explain why anything exists at all.

    At least theistic religions explain why anything exists and it is wait for it…… God.

    People like Stephen Hawking, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and, yes, Lawrence Krauss will get closer to the answer, whereas the hilarious theologians with their pretend-knowledge never will.

    Yeah only if their philosophical underpinnings and metaphysics allows them to.

    Sure, "love" covers a range of ineffable feelings and emotions. But why do you think Christianity would explain such feelings? Feelings of love, affection, altruism, etc., predate the invention of Christianity. Consequently, Christianity has nothing fresh to add to a conversation about love (see "The Moral Animal" by Robert Wright).

    I do not know what to make of this paragraph. In no way did I say that Christianity explains such feelings (or predating of these feelings before Christianity……). Please re-read my comment above. What I said was that these “feeling” are not quantifiable and cannot be explained without philosophical thought. Even if I believe that Christianity has nothing “fresh” to offer to the conversation about love, to me that just means that it really has got it right and spot on.

    How is noting a blood sacrifice story condescending? Blood sacrifice stories have existed for thousands of years in all sorts of cultures. I'm just stating the obvious: Blood sacrifices are nothing more than delusional actions conducted by bewildered people in an attempt to pay humiliating obeisance to an unseen (fictional) god.

    Please re-read my comment above. I said that it was condescending because you used the word “ludicrous” without explaining why you think so. Just because stories of blood sacrifices exist it does not logically follow that the redemption story of Jesus Christ is also nothing more than a story, you need much more than that. As an analogy just because we hear of stories about elves and goblins before or even after “The Lord of the Rings” does not make the significance of the “The Lord of the Rings” elves and goblins story any less. By the way we can agree that I also do not believe in a “(fictional) god”.

    There is no historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus (hint: The Bible is not evidence). But if you have evidence of risen, chatty corpses (yeah, there's more than one in That Book) that's drawn from sources OUTSIDE of the Bible, okay, fine, then you're talking. But right now you have nothing.

    Do you know what historical evidence is and how it is gathered? How would you go about solving a murder case that is 50 years old? Can you explain why the Bible is not a historical document especially the New Testament?

    I do not want to reply for pck but really…….. Google "why do objects fall."

    Christianity is fundamentally rooted in make-believe and nothing more. I should know: I was raised Catholic but then saw the secular light by my late 20s.

    You have to do better than that to explain why Christianity is make-believe and nothing more.

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  64. You wrote, "Philosophy, laws of logic and good old common sense let us know what is make-believe and what is an actual answer." [I corrected your typo.] I agree with you. But where is the logic and common sense behind a belief in angels? There isn't any because it's make-believe.

    The philosophical underpinnings of Hawking and company are fine. In order to understand the nature of the universe and to answer as many "why" questions that they possibly can, none of them need to rely on a crazy story about a God who sends himself to Earth only to get Himself killed in order to save humanity from its sins. Wow. That's some story. And that's what it is: a story.

    "Ludicrous." Thanks for your clarification. I'm glad you brought up Tolkien. I've never read him but here's the takeaway: if you think of elves and goblins and angels as three of the same, that they are all fictions, then you have just made a wee, little step onto a road that takes you to secularism. Very good.

    Yes, solving a murder case that's fifty years old is a big deal. I'm totally with you on that. But here's the difference. Solving an isolated murder case is one thing, but there's not one other journalist, reporter, or memoirist outside of the Bible writing about these strange goings on pertaining to some guy from Nazareth. Don't forget: the graves opened up and people who were thought to be dead start walking out. It's in the Bible. And it's only in the Bible. Imagine that! This is the most bizarre day in the history of humanity and only the Bible "reports" this. That's marvelous. Not one other writer of the day is taking down notes in astonishment upon hearing about these supposedly remarkable goings on that because of their strangeness would of course be traveling afar like wildfire. Nope. Only in the Bible. That's remarkable.

    Yes, Google "why do objects fall." If I'm reading your "I'm too embarrassed to say" sarcasm correctly, it looks like you're trying to get life out of that dead horse: "Don't cite the Internet as a place to get info! It makes you look stupid!" Umm... no. It makes you look stupid because every one knows that search engines in 2016 are not the search engines of 2006 (and they were still pretty good in 2006). Papers and publications from many institutions of learning are available just a few clicks away. The belief that looking for things on the Internet only gets you dreck and gossip is so 1990s of you.

    Christianity is make-believe because literary evidence demonstrates that its central story (about Jesus) is just one of several stories of renewal that humanity has told itself. Lewis Mumford has an excellent treatment on this in his book from 1951 called "The Conduct of Life." Mumford's one of my favorite writers. I'm not much interested in his writings on urban environments, but his secular "meditations" on the state of humanity are great. Two of his books in this regard are "The Condition of Man" from 1944 and "The Conduct of Life". On page 86 of the latter book, there's a section called "Religion's Positive Functions." It's great. It's one of the most insightful things I've ever read on the nature of religion. It's staid and stoic—and beautifully written because it's Lewis Mumford. You should check it out. It's very good—and you don't have to be a believer to agree with it.

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  65. Barry Lyons;
    "No investigation has ever found an answer to why objects fall." Google "why do objects fall."

    I have degrees in math and physics. I'm pretty well acquainted with the types of answers science gives to the question. If your knowledge comes from google, I suggest you get a bunch of textbooks and start studying.

    Evolution has not been called into question. You're apparently unaware of how the modern life sciences function. Call up your local ecologist and have a good chat. S/he'll straighten you out.

    I didn't say evolution had been called into question. I said that natural selection as the dominant mechanism of evolution has. So perhaps you should have a good chat with a local reading comprehension tutor. Neutral theory and random genetic drift are but two examples of what I was actually talking about. The fact that mutations do not occur evenly distributed across the human genome is another.

    "Explain then, how laws like gravitational attraction come to exist." I can't. But you have a bigger problem: demonstrate how a SUPERnatural "element" explains it. You can't.

    I didn't say anything about the supernatural. I'm not even religious. You're jumping to conclusions without evidence.

    It's true that the cosmological argument does not say anything about why the particular contingent nature that we experience exists and not some other (with different laws etc.). But it does give some very worthwhile thoughts on how to approach thinking about existence itself, which is a topic that falls outside of the domain of science (as opposed to the quantitative details of the world). If there is a "bigger problem", it is to fall silent about the issue of the existence of the cosmos and make the magical/nonsensical claims that the world "is just there" or "comes from nothing".

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  66. Barry Lyons:
    Christianity is fundamentally rooted in make-believe and nothing more. I should know: I was raised Catholic but then saw the secular light by my late 20s.

    So, no big biographical surprises either. And I didn't even have to google it.

    "Die größten Kritiker der Elche waren früher selber welche."

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  67. pck,

    My recommendation to use Google was in case you were a lazy idiot. Glad to see that you're not. Whew.

    Natural selection has not been called into question. It is the driving force of evolution (and the foundation of the life sciences). Yes, genetic drift and mutations (I mentioned the latter earlier on): but they are not the main drivers of evolution.

    I don't think anyone has fallen silent about "the issue of the existence of the cosmos". All I'm saying is that Catholicism, because it is a feeble faith rooted in fairy tales, has nothing of value to say on the matter.

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  68. Barry,

    But where is the logic and common sense behind a belief in angels? There isn't any because it's make-believe.

    search engines in 2016 are not the search engines of 2006 (and they were still pretty good in 2006).

    My recommendation to use Google was in case you were a lazy idiot. Glad to see that you're not. Whew.

    1. If there are no angels then Barry is not an angel.

    2. But an angel is a person of exemplary conduct or virtue (according to the first Google result for "angel definition").

    3. Therefore Barry is not a person of exemplary conduct or virtue.

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  69. Sorry, but I just did a search using the term "angel definition" and this is what came up: "A spiritual being believed to act as an attendant, agent, or messenger of God, conventionally represented in human form with wings and a long robe." Wow, just how wacky can Catholic beliefs get? Next you'll be trying to fob off the ludicrous idea that speaking mumbo jumbo in front of a cracker somehow "transubstantiates" the cracker into something else. Nah, that can't be right. There's no way you Catholics could be that credulous.

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  70. You deserve an A for at least checking. You also deserve an F for failing to recognize that the first result return by Google is a box (or 'table'). So, it's a tie: 1 A and 1 F.

    It is true that "a spiritual being, etc." is the first of the two definitions given within that box. But it wasn't said that it was "a person of exemplary conduct or virtue" that was the first of two definitions given within that box. So you deserve another F, this time for failing to properly understand what was said. So, it's no longer a tie: 1 A and 2 Fs.

    However, you do deserve another 'A' for lending credence to the conclusion that was given. So, it's back to being a dead heat: 2 As and 2 Fs.

    But what is the basis of that assumption of yours according to which I'm Catholic? That I post here? If so, then that must mean you too are Catholic since you also post here. But you say you're not Catholic (that you once were, but no longer are), so that a person posts here cannot in and of itself mean that that person is Catholic. What, then, is the basis for your assumption? Other than an unreasoned guess, no basis is in evidence. So that's another F for you.

    Let's summarize:

    1. An A for at least making the effort to check something that was said.
    2. An A for lending credence to the conclusion of what was said.
    3. An F for failing to recognize that the first result returned by Google is a box.
    4. An F for failing to recognize that it is true that according to that result, an angel is "a person, etc."
    5. An F for taking a shot in the dark.

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  71. Btw, you do realize that the spitballs you're throwing have been wetted by the saliva of others before you, right? Assuming that your having become a secular humanist has enabled you to feel free, when will your having bcome a secular humanist enable you to stop being a parrot, and to have some original thoughts?

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  72. Glenn,

    Why are you even attempting to clarify the definition of "angel"? That you want to clarify the definition of that word gives away the (religious) game. Sure, there's a colloquial use of the word. So what? There's also a colloquial use of the word "theory" (to mean "opinion") when the word isn't being used scientifically. But the issue here, at this blog, is religion, Catholicism specifically, and so if I'm referencing "angels" I am clearly invoking the religious use of the word and not the colloquial use of the word. You get an F for your disingenuousness.

    "I read DHW back in the 90s, and at no time since then have I become a secular humanist." You wrote that. So it's fair to assume that you're either a Catholic or you're a Christian of some stripe because, hey, you said it: "at no time [since reading Sagan's book] have I become a secular humanist." Or maybe you're an adherent of one of the other two inane Abrahamic faiths. Whatever the case may be, to not be a secular humanist is to be a religious believer (again, of some stripe), which means I'm giving you another F for aligning yourself with an intellectually impoverished system of "thought" (such as it is).

    Glenn, it's time to grow up. Hang with the secular humanists. We're a smarter crowd. Be done with this insipid Jesus/God/Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah/King of Kings nonsense. You're better than that. You're smarter than that (or so I would like to believe). Good luck to you.

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  73. "I read DHW back in the 90s, and at no time since then have I become a secular humanist." You wrote that. So it's fair to assume that you're either a Catholic or you're a Christian of some stripe because, hey, you said it: "at no time [since reading Sagan's book] have I become a secular humanist."

    According to your logic, either a person is a secular humanist, or he is (either a Catholic or a Christian of some stripe). But since you had earlier acknowledged the existence of Hinduism, the implication of your logic is that a Hindu is a secular humanist, or a Catholic, or a Christian of some stripe.

    Hang with the secular humanists. We're a smarter crowd.

    1. See just above.

    2. If you're a member of the 'smarter crowd', then you should have no problem providing a rational and intelligent answer to this question: at what level of intelligence must one be in order for a book on popular science to qualify as 'serious intellectual value'?

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  74. Sorry, but you first have to explain why a book on science that's written for lay audiences is intrinsically intellectually inferior to the papers that are written for fellow academics. Are you suggesting that Sagan's book lacks "serious intellectual value" because Sagan didn't write it for fellow astronomers?

    The late Sherwin Nuland wrote some terrific books about the nature of his work as a surgeon. "How We Die" and "The Mysteries Within" are my favorites. Do they intrinsically lack "serious intellectual value" because they were written for people who are not surgeons?

    Oliver Sacks's "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat" and "An Anthropologist on Mars" are wonderful books that teem with great insights on the "weirder" side of the human condition. Are you suggesting that these superb collections of essays are lacking "serious intellectual value" because Sacks didn't write his essays as academic papers for fellow neurologists?

    Stop insulting your intellectual betters (yes: Sagan, Nuland, and Sacks were atheists). It makes you look like a fool.

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  75. Bronowski's Science and Human Values, e.g., is not quite what one would call a popular science book, but it does have intellectual value (which may be why it's not quite what one would call a popular science book).

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  76. Barry Lyons:
    My recommendation to use Google was in case you were a lazy idiot. Glad to see that you're not. Whew.

    Well, you still have to prove yourself in both departments. So far it's not looking good. Your manners need even more work.

    Natural selection has not been called into question. It is the driving force of evolution (and the foundation of the life sciences). Yes, genetic drift and mutations (I mentioned the latter earlier on): but they are not the main drivers of evolution.

    Even Wikipedia disagrees with you. You haven't read anything but pop science, like, ever, have you?

    Those who are genuinely interested in science study it. They don't waste their time online with unprovoked condescension and displays of their own intellectual shallowness.

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  77. Barry,

    This will be my last reply to you here. I do not think that our chat here will be productive to this blog. In honor of Scott, if you want to continue an honest and respectful conversation you can go here.

    Since Glenn has already answered your first paragraph I will omit it.

    The philosophical underpinnings of Hawking and company are fine. In order to understand the nature of the universe and to answer as many "why" questions that they possibly can, none of them need to rely on a crazy story about a God who sends himself to Earth only to get Himself killed in order to save humanity from its sins. Wow. That's some story. And that's what it is: a story.

    Again I will repeat it but what you are mixing are two different questions.
    1. Nature of the Universe (which Hawking’s and company are pursuing) or how it works or came to being.
    2. And the redemption story of Jesus Christ.

    At the most you can say that there is no God but then you are making a philosophical claim.

    "Ludicrous." Thanks for your clarification. I'm glad you brought up Tolkien. I've never read him but here's the takeaway: if you think of elves and goblins and angels as three of the same, that they are all fictions, then you have just made a wee, little step onto a road that takes you to secularism. Very good.

    I just deconstructed your premise of multiple blood sacrifice stories through out the human history and cultures and all you did was look on my analogy and instead focused on elves, globins and angels.

    Don't forget: the graves opened up and people who were thought to be dead start walking out. It's in the Bible. And it's only in the Bible. Imagine that!

    These questions that you ask are not new. Maybe it would be nice to spend some time around here and actually read what people say before you make statements like that. Also reading some good commentary on the Bible would be a nice place to start.

    Yes, Google "why do objects fall." If I'm reading your "I'm too embarrassed to say" sarcasm correctly, it looks like you're trying to get life out of that dead horse

    You are not reading me at all. People here have spent decades in their respective fields and you come along and say “Google it”. If you really want to debate you should sure as hell read and understand in detail and then ask specific questions. People here would be more then willing to help you out if you ask politely.

    Christianity is make-believe because literary evidence demonstrates that its central story (about Jesus) is just one of several stories of renewal that humanity has told itself. Lewis Mumford has an excellent treatment on this in his book from 1951 called "The Conduct of Life." Mumford's one of my favorite writers. I'm not much interested in his writings on urban environments, but his secular "meditations" on the state of humanity are great.

    I have not honestly read Mumford but here’s the thing, even if different stories exists it does not follow that they are all false or made up. The test of whether they are true or false does not depend upon the number of similar stories in existence. Each story individually needs to be looked into and seen individually along with historical evidence for and against it. Also excluding all similar stories that came after the 1st century would be of great help.

    Calling people stupid or their ideas ludicrous without understanding their perspective is highly disrespectful. It is not like we were born yesterday and have not asked / wrestled with questions. Just because we disagree on worldviews does not mean we cannot be respectful to each other. Maybe just maybe we can learn something from each other if we keep an open mind.

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  78. I don't know that book, but I know the name. I think it was Sagan who might have discussed Bronowski. Not sure. But thanks for the recommendation.

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  79. Yes, it's disrespectful to go after people, but it's not disrespectful to go after dumbass ideas. If you feel that I've stepped over the line, I apologize. But Christianity remains a dumbass idea.

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  80. I just left a short comment but I think it went to another person. Again, the continued "weirdness" of Blogger, where there isn't a unique reply button for each comment.

    All I can say at this point is to repeat what I said in my first post here. It's worth repeating because it's true (I'll expand on it to ram home my point):

    "If we ever do figure out how life emerged on this planet, if we ever do figure out what caused the Big Bang, if we ever do figure out the ultimate nature of the various forces (gravity, etc.) that act upon the earth, if we ever do figure out an answer to why there is something rather than nothing, I can assure you that a story about a tyrannical, murderous god who kills a lot of people (in the Old Book) but then sends a kindly “savior” (in the New Book) who gets murdered in a gruesome instance of blood sacrifice (but then comes back to life!) won’t be part of the answer."

    In the meantime, there's Laniakea, as I noted earlier. Do ponder that and ask yourself in what way Christianity has anything to do with intelligent life that may exist elsewhere within this superstructure. Wait! Maybe Islam applies? I mean, there are Islamic scholars who insist that their religion is the One True Religion. Right? Funny stuff, this religion business!

    I'm outta here.

    Barry

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  81. BL:
    Yes, it's disrespectful to go after people, but it's not disrespectful to go after dumbass ideas. If you feel that I've stepped over the line, I apologize. But Christianity remains a dumbass idea.

    A standard excuse of trolls. Calling a belief or idea X "dumbass" is tantamount to calling all believers of X "dumbasses". If you had really wanted to separate beliefs from believers, you could easily have avoided the use of ugly and insulting language ("dumbass", "lazy idiot", etc.), which so clearly and obviously drags criticism into the realm of the personal. Beliefs do no exist independently of their believers. "Believing X is idiotic" is supposed not to be disrespectful of the believers of X? If you can bring yourself to believe that, the depth of your own delusions is at least as big as that which you ascribe to your opponents.

    [...] to ram home my point

    A remarkable choice of words and another clear display of the prejudices and false pride that drive fundamentalist atheism.

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  82. "I'm outta here."

    Thank God. And to not let the praise fall just on one side, thank you.

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  83. pck,

    Me: "I've explained directional chains of temporal causation are merely a human POV -- not human bias with slight error, but bias with fundamental error"

    You: "Wrong. You have said it, not explained it."

    You brought up the issue of education earlier. So it's amusing that a person with a physics background would claim, in effect, Newton's Third Law is mere assertion.


    "And yet your 'argument' only made sense if one assumed that 'cause = only cause'."

    False. In every case I argue cause is never an "only cause." In no way can it be said multiple cause makes no sense. That's saying Newton's Third Law makes no sense.


    Me: "In what way do you think the event-based notion of causation has failed?"

    You: "I have explained that several times. Reread the posts."

    You have not explained any failure of an event-based notion of causation. You have said, essentially, that you don't like it because it doesn't explain why anything happens at all, or it can't happen at all unless there's some mysterious addition. But that's just muddled thinking.


    "They're a way to talk about change. We all use these concepts on a daily basis, including you."

    Yet, even if I did use these concepts in the Thomist sense (which I do not) it still does not make them more than descriptions. Common usage does not depend on getting fundamental reality right.


    "Nature is contingent. That which ultimately actualizes nature is necessary."

    Nice try. Complete drivel. Word salad. :)

    There is no reason to think nature needs to be actualized, just as (by mere definition) there is no need for God to be actualized.


    "It is no secret that you are very eager to impress."

    If I had a need to impress others it's abundantly clear that this is not the forum I should use. :)


    "Not according to the salaries the average code monkey is paid."

    I don't know what a code monkey is. But that's a strange statement coming from someone who is supposedly familiar with the industry.


    "Try making a living from philosophy for a year."

    Exactly. There is little demand in the market. Why? Because it's not clear a service is provided.


    "If they get inspired by the Jindras, we're going to see even more social autism, pointless aggression, desperate self-aggrandizing and loss of personal dignity."

    I've noticed poor debaters always end up making their "conceptual frameworks" personal. The personal dignity thing is especially laughable.


    "This is the key problem in education as I see it. Too much of the latter [learning-by-rote] and too little of the former [becoming a fully formed human being]."

    Yet what makes you think philosophy will be more than learning-by-rote? You, for example, have done little more than spit out the standard dogma. You also seem to have this false impression of who people must be simply because they have a particular worldview or occupation. A background in critical thinking should have given you a better picture of things. You say we have forgotten how to live, yet you cannot look into a cubicle or at posts in this forum and know how a person lives.

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  84. Barry Lyons,


    "Whatever the case may be, to not be a secular humanist is to be a religious believer"

    I have no supernatural beliefs. I have no religion. Yet I would never claim to be a secular humanist. I don't know why so many people are so anxious to attach meaningless titles to themselves.

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  85. "Secular humanist" isn't a meaningless term: if you don't subscribe to any religious system of belief, it means you have a secular (nonreligious) outlook on life. But I wouldn't say I'm "anxious" to use the term as an identifying label. In fact, I rarely use it. I usually just say that I am a-religious and, consequently, an a-theist (deliberate hyphens for emphasis). But I see your broader point: Neil deGrasse Tyson isn't likely to go around calling himself a secular humanist (even though he is one). He instead just refers to himself, properly, as an astrophysicist.

    Barry

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  86. DJ:
    So it's amusing that a person with a physics background would claim, in effect, Newton's Third Law is mere assertion.

    Every physicist will tell you that actio=reactio is not an assertion of a fact, but part of Newton's concept of force. Newton's laws are one way of setting up classical mechanics. It is quite possible to set up classical mechanics without the concept of force (see Hertz, Lagrange, Hamilton). The only amusing thing here is your total ignorance of what actually goes on in physics.

    In every case I argue cause is never an "only cause".

    Your conception of causation, as you have made very clear, is 100% counterfactual. According to you, C is a cause of X if and only if X would not have happened without C. C="The existence of basketballs" clearly and trivially is a cause of X="scoring" by this definition. Yet later you said "Mere existence of basketball players does not cause scoring either." The only way to read this without getting an immediate contradiction to your own definition of "cause" is to interpret it as "the existence of bballs is part of the cause of scoring". That's why I said that your later statement only made sense if "cause = only cause" (in that statement, not in general).

    You have not explained any failure of an event-based notion of causation.

    See the paragraph above. The existence of bballs is not an event, but it is a (partial) cause of scoring according to you. Thus, according to you, not all causation is event-based. Your problem is your failure to realize that your own definition of "cause" is Aristotelian and not modern.

    Now suppose you want to escape this situation (because Aristotle is sooo stoopid and you are sooo much smarter) and decide to simply call the existence of bballs an "event". You declare that, by definition, every cause and effect must be an event. Take that, Aristotle! But then the "event" of bballs existing would not cause the event of scoring in the modern sense of "cause" (which holds that causes must necessitae their effects). Bballs existing would still just be a material cause. So either way, Aristotle prevails.

    (This must be somewhere around the 3rd or 4th time I have explained this now.)

    You have said, essentially, that you don't like it because it doesn't explain why anything happens at all, or it can't happen at all unless there's some mysterious addition.

    I never said that I don't like event-based causation. They're just not the whole story. Your own definition of causation is not exclusively event-based, as we have just seen (for the umpteenth time). Many efficient causes in Aristotle's sense are event-based. A problem only arises if one thinks that all causes can be viewed as event-based. The First Cause (why anything happens at all) can indeed not be event-based, since all events presuppose Existence. No world, no events. I don't know what the "mysterious addition" you're talking about is supposed to refer to. I never said anything about an addition, mysterious or not.

    Yet, even if I did use these concepts in the Thomist sense (which I do not) it still does not make them more than descriptions. Common usage does not depend on getting fundamental reality right.

    What's the difference between your use of "change", "potency" and "act" and a Thomist's use? What are the criteria for "getting fundamental reality right"? (I asked that earlier already. Your response: Crickets.) What exactly is "fundamental reality"? Lots of unanswered conceptual and metaphysical questions. But since, according to you, philosophers have it easy, you should have no trouble answering them.

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  87. Me: "Nature is contingent. That which ultimately actualizes nature is necessary."
    DJ: Nice try. Complete drivel. Word salad.


    You make a good parrot. But your skills seem to end there. Reasons and explanations are clearly not part of your repertoire. Polly needs to practice more.

    There is no reason to think nature needs to be actualized, just as (by mere definition) there is no need for God to be actualized.

    Anything we see in nature could be different. Thus nature is contingent. (Even if you assume determinism, nature is still contingent, since determinism does not fix the initial conditions of nature.) What is contingent needs to be actualized, since it cannot actualize itself. Only Actuality itself ("God") does not and cannot. Actuality itself is necessary, which is derived by argument, not by definition, as you falsely claim.

    If I had a need to impress others it's abundantly clear that this is not the forum I should use.

    I agree completely. And since your vanity is more obvious than a guy with 30 items at a 10 item checkout, now all you have to do is take your own advice.

    I don't know what a code monkey is. But that's a strange statement coming from someone who is supposedly familiar with the industry.

    Clearly you do know what a code monkey is. Your claim that my reply is "a strange statement coming from someone who is supposedly familiar with the industry" makes that perfectly clear.

    There is little demand in the market. Why? Because it's not clear a service is provided.

    As I said, the market does not know what is good for itself. It hasn't for a long time.

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  88. DJ:
    The personal dignity thing is especially laughable.

    So what do we call someone who will not only admit of his own social failures but brag about them in public, such as slamming his fists onto car hoods and shaming people in supermarkets for the pettiest possible reasons? A credit to himself and society?

    Yet what makes you think philosophy will be more than learning-by-rote?

    You're missing the point. One can learn anything by rote. Philosophy has no built-in avoidance of that. But the same is true everywhere. It can occasionally be hard to identify the fakers, the parrots and mere users of jargon. There are mathematicians who get by on technique alone but who literally don't know what they're doing. The nature of the craft makes that possible. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with math. It means there is something wrong with how we teach math.

    You fear those who you perceive as attempting to place philosophy above everything else. For some reason, this greatly hurts your pride. You have nothing to fear though. I've said many times that the conceptual and the empirical are complementary and need each other. No Thomist is an enemy of science either. There is a sense in which there is a historical and conceptual primacy of philosophy, as has been explained many times on this blog, but that does not diminish the empirical and the practical, nor does it diminish those who are not well-versed in philosophy.

    You also seem to have this false impression of who people must be simply because they have a particular worldview or occupation.

    Well, unless you have been lying about yourself, you have told me (and everyone else) exactly who you are, in your own words. You've been imprecise and confused about pretty much every topic ever discussed here. For years. But with respect to what kind of person you are, you couldn't have been clearer. It's not as if you have made a secret out of your personality. You only recently proudly admitted this in this very thread.

    You say we have forgotten how to live, yet you cannot look into a cubicle or at posts in this forum and know how a person lives.

    Unless that person tells me who he is and how he lives in a post. Which you have done. And of course I didn't come to my conclusions about software engineers by looking into their cubicles. I came to my conclusions by working with them. No software engineer who is secure in his skills would feel attacked by what I have said about the industry.

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  89. I had to jump in and say that "the conceptual and the empirical" is a nice turn of phrase. In fact, I think it's a great thing to keep in mind. Conceptually (no pun intended) speaking, I don't disagree with it. However...

    In order to be properly paired with the empirical, there needs to be some balance in that the conceptual, a thought or idea, has to be consonant with material reality, particularly when you are making a statement about something material in the world. "Hot" is to "water" as adjective is to noun. To speak of "holy" water is to say something about material reality (the water). If you tell me you have a vial of holy water, it is to say that the water isn't something else (ordinary tap or spring water). Because differential diagnosis is impossible (there's no way to tell the difference between tap water and holy water), we can safely conclude that there is no such thing as holy water.

    So only I only bring this up to say, yeah, the conceptual and the material can be partners and friends, but they have to pull equal weight. One can't be anchored to reality (the empirical) while the other (the conceptual) just takes an untethered flight of fancy (unless, of course, you're writing literature).

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  90. Don Jindra: Plain reading of English shows that I did address the point.

    Sorry, I must have missed that. Let me quote your quotation: "...something was wrong with that terribly dubious observation, that there is change in the world". Can you please point me to the post where you replied with either "yes, I am dubious that there is change in the world", or else "no, I actually do not doubt that there is change in the world after all"?


    Our stuff has to work.

    Software? Has to "work"?! Wow, we really do live in different universes….

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  91. PCK: Overblown confidence, mostly unjustified, particularly about "seeing things as they really are". Eager to tell others they are wrong, not very eager to correct their own mistakes.

    Heh. I am considering that there may be some confusion by its practitioners between computer-science, which relies on the application of pure logic, and actual programming, which relies a lot on guesswork and instinct and just trying stuff to see if it "works", i.e. does something. Then philosophy is assumed not to work, because it doesn't "do anything" — in the same sense — despite the fact that philosophy, at least of the perennial sort, has proven to work better than all its competitors (up to and including, y'know, the invention of computers and computer-science...).

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  92. Mr. Green:
    [...] there may be some confusion by its practitioners between computer-science, which relies on the application of pure logic, and actual programming, which relies a lot on guesswork and instinct and just trying stuff to see if it "works", i.e. does something. Then philosophy is assumed not to work, because it doesn't "do anything" — in the same sense — [...]

    That's a succinct characterization. The guesswork can be narrowed down not by more blind empirical trial-and-error procedures, but only by using one's intellectual powers to make a given problem more perspicuous. Furious activity being no substitute for understanding and all that. Which means that conceptual thought (aka philosophy) is an important contributor to "making stuff work".

    despite the fact that philosophy, at least of the perennial sort, has proven to work better than all its competitors (up to and including, y'know, the invention of computers and computer-science...).

    Indeed. And somewhere, somehow, DJ knows all this, of course, which makes his anti-philosophy stance even more unintelligible.

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  93. Barry Lyons:
    In order to be properly paired with the empirical, there needs to be some balance in that the conceptual, a thought or idea, has to be consonant with material reality, particularly when you are making a statement about something material in the world.

    The bold part is problematic, depending on how "consonant with" is read. Concepts precede theories and, strictly speaking, they owe nothing to the world. As I mentioned in a previous post, the concept of "force" in classical mechanics is an option, not a necessity. "Force" can thus not be a "fundamental notion of reality". Nevertheless, the concept of Newtonian forces works extremely well for a wide range of natural phenomena. So what is it that a Newtonian force is "consonant with" in reality? "The theory works" is obviously not enough to answer that.

    The idea that concepts, particularly those of physics, somehow have to correspond to "elements of reality" leaves open what exactly an "element of reality" is and how it can be identified as an element of reality. But in order to identify anything, there has to be a system of concepts already in place, which defines what counts as an identification. We cannot find/identify X if we do not fix what counts as an instance of X before the investigation begins.

    Thus all investigation (theories, experiments, etc.) takes place in some already existing system. It follows that we cannot read the "right concepts" off of nature by experimentation, since what counts as "right" is determined by those same concepts. In an experiment, we find out whether what a concept predicts is right, not whether the concept itself is right. We confirm or refute theories, not concepts. We may of course reject concepts, if it turns out that they are not useful for a given purpose or if they are logically vacuous or self-contradictory.

    Wittgenstein: "All testing, all confirmation and disconfirmation of a hypothesis takes place already within a system. And this system is not a more or less arbitrary and doubtful point of departure for all our arguments; no it belongs to the essence of what we call an argument. The system is not so much the point of departure, as the element in which our arguments have their life."

    Since not all concepts will be useful or even intelligible, we can say that our conceptual frameworks are inspired as much by our own human powers as they are by the world's behaviour. But this does not entitle us to claim that "what works better is therefore a more accurate picture of reality", since we always leave open what the term "reality" means.

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  94. BL:
    Because differential diagnosis is impossible (there's no way to tell the difference between tap water and holy water), we can safely conclude that there is no such thing as holy water.

    Well, there is no difference between the water you drink and the water you bathe in either. Nevertheless, the same water is capable of performing these very different functions. A similar issue is that of transubstantiation/transignification in the Eucharist. Some Christians take things literally, others don't. Accordingly, the meaning of "the body and blood of Christ" varies.

    From Wikipedia: "Transignification suggests that although Christ's body and blood are not physically present in the Eucharist, they are really and objectively so, as the elements take on, at the consecration, the real significance of Christ's body and blood which thus become sacramentally present."

    As we can see, the meaning we give to "real", that is, how the term "real" is used, is once more of crucial importance.

    the conceptual and the material can be partners and friends, but they have to pull equal weight.

    They pull different types of weight. The empirical is not even intelligible without the conceptual. The conceptual is, at least with respect to what we can say about nature, vacuous without the empirical. But this is not because C and E both have to have the same amount of "reality credit".

    One can't be anchored to reality (the empirical) while the other (the conceptual) just takes an untethered flight of fancy

    Reality and the empirical are by no means the same. What anchors us are our backgrounds of skills of coping with the world which we learn as we grow up.

    Wittgenstein: "I did not get my picture of the world by satisfying myself of its correctness; nor do I have it because I am satisfied of its correctness. No: it is the inherited background against which I distinguish between true and false."

    "The empirical" is itself a highly abstract notion which we can only develop later in life, after we have mastered language and the use of certain concepts.

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  95. Mr. Green,

    Yes we must live in different universes because in mine software has to work. If it doesn't, customers know it doesn't work and they complain until it does work. Maybe in your universe programmers just try stuff to see if it works. But that tactic won't get you far in my universe.

    Btw, what is philosophy of the perennial sort? How would we measure if it has proven to work better than all its competitors? What are those competitors?


    pck,

    I certainly have not told you how I live. It amuses me how you make these huge leaps of imagination about me personally with little to no information. Why would I expect you to do better with people at work? Why would I expect you to do better with anything at all?

    For example, nowhere have I said or implied mere existence of basketballs causes a scoring event. Surely the existence of basketballs in London has no effect on me scoring in Los Angeles. But try to score without a basketball and you'll see what I mean.

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  96. DJ:
    I certainly have not told you how I live.

    You've even told me how you dress. In great detail.

    It amuses me how you make these huge leaps of imagination about me personally with little to no information.

    As you have said, you have made no attempt to hide your personality behind any artificially created online presence. I believe you. I only quoted what you have said about yourself. No leaps of the imagination involved.

    Why would I expect you to do better with people at work? Why would I expect you to do better with anything at all?

    This is another rather typical attribute of fundamentalists. They have to prove themselves to nobody, but everybody has to prove themselves to them. Which is why they often don't get along even with their own kind. Welcome to working in the software industry.

    I can only repeat what I have already said, my remarks about my experiences in software engineering were not about writing off people, but about identifying problems which are related to deficits in education and lack of social abilities in equal measure.

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  97. pck,

    I don't see how my "consonant with material reality" is problematic. Religions make statements about meanings and morals but they also make statements about the nature of the world (Coyne's central point)—and when statements about the nature of the world are made, there are methods available (provided by science) to adjudicate such alleged truth claims. Is this water hot or cold? There's a way to find out. So noting the different uses of water (one for drinking, one for bathing) elides my point: If someone says this water is holy but that water is not holy, how is differential diagnosis achieved? It can't be achieved because "holy" water is a religious fiction. There is no such thing as "holy" water or "blessed" or "consecrated" bread. Ideas of holiness and blessedness—that is, as concepts ascribed or attached to material things in the world: water and bread—exist only within the confines of religious minds. Really, pck, it's all make-believe. "Holy" water and "blessed" bread exist in the same way that Kryptonite exists: as products of human imagination and nothing more.

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  98. DJ:
    But try to score without a basketball and you'll see what I mean.

    In other words, the existence of the basketball you scored with is a cause of scoring. (According to your own defintion that every C without which X would not have happened is a cause of C.)

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  99. Barry Lyons,

    Sorry, but you first have to explain why a book on science that's written for lay audiences is intrinsically intellectually inferior to the papers that are written for fellow academics.

    1. You make no case from which the conclusion follows that that which is written for lay audiences is intellectually on par with that which is written for actual practitioners of a field.

    2. Albert Einstein (1948): "Anyone who has ever tried to present a rather abstract scientific subject in a popular manner knows the great difficulties of such an attempt. Either he succeeds in being intelligible by concealing the core of the problem and by offering the reader only superficial aspects or vague allusions, thus deceiving the reader by arousing in him the deceptive illusion of comprehension; or else he gives an expert account of the problem, but in such a fashion that the untrained reader is unable to follow the exposition and becomes discouraged from reading any further. If these two categories are omitted from today's popular scientific literature, surprisingly little remains." [1]

    If that remains true today -- and given the veritable explosion in the popularization of science since, this does not seem farfetched -- then it follows that that which is written for lay audiences is probabilistically unlikely to be intellectually on par with that which is written for actual practitioners of a field. [2]

    3. Jeanne Fahnestock (1986): She notes that there is a "genre shift" when "scientific observations...pass from original research reports intended for scientific peers into popular accounts aimed at a general audience." She also notes that these "science accommodations are primarily epideictic, celebrations of science", and that they "emphasize the uniqueness, rarity, [and] originality of observations", as well as "remov[e] hedges and qualifications and thus" confer "greater certainty on the reported facts." [3]

    It is not clear that a celebration of science findings is necessarily intellectually on par with the actual work to which the celebrated findings owe their genesis.

    It also is not clear that when intellectual honesty and integrity require the inclusion of hedges and qualifications, the subsequent and intentional removal or whitewashing of those hedges and qualifications is no less an equal and matching act of intellectual honesty and integrity. [4]

    (cont)

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  100. [1] The Universe and Dr. Einstein.

    [2] This isn't to say that what is written for lay audiences necessarily isn't intellectually on par with what is written for actual practitioners, only that it necessarily isn't likely to be intellectually on par.

    [3] Accommodating Science: The Rhetorical Life of Scientific Facts

    [4] It may be objected that the intentional removal of hedges and qualifications need not be taken as implying anything deceitful underfoot. Well, of course not. Amongst other things, there is only so much material which can be fit into a popular science article or book, and the level of background knowledge of one's intended audience does need to be taken into consideration. These reasons, however, also help support the notion that a popular science article or book necessarily is likely not quite intellectually on par with what is written for actual practitioners of a field.

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  101. Glenn,

    I never suggested that a science book written for lay people is "on par" with academic papers.

    In the meantime, Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution is True" is brimming with insights and factual information, whereas something fatuous and inane like Genesis (which should begin with the words "Once upon a time" and not "In the beginning") tells us nothing about the nature of life on Earth. That's a fact.

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  102. BL:
    Is this water hot or cold? There's a way to find out.

    Sure, because "temperature" is a term tied to measurable physical properties. But not all concepts share that kind of usage.

    So noting the different uses of water (one for drinking, one for bathing) elides my point: If someone says this water is holy but that water is not holy, how is differential diagnosis achieved?

    You assume that everyone uses "holy" like a physical property. But not everyone does. Again, see any debate about how transubstantiation should be construed. Being part of a ritual involving holy water has real meaning to certain people, a meaning that the same ritual performed with non-consecrated water would not have to them. Even the non-believer can easily acknowledge that, no matter what anybody thinks of the physical properties of the water involved.

    Not even the most mundane realities come down to physical properties exclusively. If someone decides to name their car "Mathilda", how is a differential diagnosis (before/after the naming) achieved? Nothing in the car's physical structure has changed. If a "diagnosis" is requested, the relevant measure is the owner's testimony and conduct. The naturalist objection that the owner's brain must have changed physically if his conduct has changed is, even though factually correct, misguided, since we do not examine people's brains in order to find out about their conduct. Even if we were capable of doing that, slapping the notion of "naming a car" onto certain brain structures or processes could still only be derived from our ordinary practices/concepts of naming cars, finding out what a car's name is, and so on. One's experiences cannot be captured by describing spatio-temporal distributions of matter.

    So we see that "real" does not necessarily imply "physical" or "material". Nor does "physical" necessarily imply "real": Are physical forces as described by Newton real? As I explained (March 4, 2016 at 4:22 AM), a working theory which employs a Newtonian concept of force is not enough to settle the question whether forces are "really out there", because "force" is not a necessary concept in physics. It is unclear what the criteria for "really being out there" actually are or could be in this context. Scientific theories and models cannot settle all questions that arise about the notion(s) of reality.

    I don't see how my "consonant with material reality" is problematic.

    It's problematic because you do not offer an account of the meaning of the terms "material" and "reality". There are many unproblematic uses of "material" and "real" in everyday life. But even the ordinary and unspectacular phrase "the water is really hot" already raises the issue whether "hot" is a "purely material" notion. Physical language has no way of talking about the experience of water being hot. It is not even clear whether the scientific concept of the elevated kinetic energy which is characteristic of hot water should be called "material". A scientific conception of temperature does not capture all the uses of the ordinary notion and adds new ideas into the mix at the same time. There is nothing wrong with that, but it a) shows that theoretical concepts always rely on ordinary ones for their intelligibility, even if they move away from them in significant ways, and b) that while the precision of science (perhaps its biggest strength) comes from fixing and narrowing down the use of a specific set of terms, this also means that we lose the ability to describe certain aspects of reality, particularly the ones which are not quantifiable.

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  103. Glenn:
    It is not clear that a celebration of science findings is necessarily intellectually on par with the actual work to which the celebrated findings owe their genesis.

    Lots of scientists have misinterpreted or distorted the results of their great and admirable findings or have illegitimately extended them into territories where they are no longer valid. (This includes Einstein and the conclusions he drew from his "four dimensional block" view of space and time.)

    You can win the Tour de France without having any of the skills of a bike mechanic. Neither achievement requires or implies the other.

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  104. Barry,

    I see pck has already given excellent answers to your questions but here’s my layman take on it.

    Ideas of holiness and blessedness—that is, as concepts ascribed or attached to material things in the world: water and bread—exist only within the confines of religious minds

    Yeah it is true that ideas of holiness and blessedness are confined to religious minds but that does not mean that we ascribe or attach concepts to material things only in religious contexts. We do that in our daily lives and it actually helps us in communicating with each other. Some examples of attaching concepts to material things are as follows
    - This is a tasty apple
    - This is a lovely place
    - This is a stunning super car
    - This is a beautiful lake

    and the list can go on and on.

    Religions make statements about meanings and morals but they also make statements about the nature of the world (Coyne's central point)—and when statements about the nature of the world are made, there are methods available (provided by science) to adjudicate such alleged truth claims

    Just like noted above we all make statements about the nature of the world, everyday and we do not adjudicate all of these truth claims with science do we?

    If someone says this water is holy but that water is not holy, how is differential diagnosis achieved? It can't be achieved because "holy" water is a religious fiction.

    The diagnosis can be achieved by actually asking that person if the water was blessed according to the rite given in the Sacramentary see here. Now if you believe in these concepts or not is something else entirely but that does not change the fact of what holy water or the Eucharist means to a believer.

    "Holy" water and "blessed" bread exist in the same way that Kryptonite exists: as products of human imagination and nothing more.

    As long as a Holy God exists who Blesses His people (whether you believe that or not is besides the point) then I do not think that you can compare them with Kryptonite. This is a totally unfair assessment.

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  105. pck,

    I don't need to define or account for material reality. Neither do you. Go have a glass of water. There you go: you just experienced the material reality of water. You're welcome.

    Naming things (calling a car Matilda) is not the same thing as designating water as something that's "holy". I can't paste it here, but I have a photo of a spigot for "holy water" that exists outside a church in Ireland. I can assure you that the people who go up to this spigot are not using it to get a cup of metaphor. They use it to get something that they think is tangible in the world: holy water. They think (believe) that the water that issues from that spigot is different from the water that issues from the faucets in their homes. We can safely call this belief a delusion.

    "See any debate about how transubstantiation should be construed." I don't need to because the Council of Trent states, just as Bishop Robert Barron states in an essay on this point (you can easily find his essay online), that Jesus is "really, truly, substantially present" in the wafer. This is a zany (and ghoulish) belief, of course. But if some Catholics want to argue that "Transubstantiation" amounts to a metaphor or mere symbolism, then they are "bad" Catholics.

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  106. Barry Lyons,

    1. On February 29, 2016 at 9:56 AM you wrote: Sorry, but you first have to explain why a book on science that's written for lay audiences is intrinsically intellectually inferior to the papers that are written for fellow academics.

    And on March 7, 2016 at 5:11 PM you wrote: I never suggested that a science book written for lay people is "on par" with academic papers.

    You’re forgetful, you have changed your mind, or you had asked to have explained to you something you already knew.

    2. In the meantime, Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution is True" is brimming with insights and factual information,

    I haven't read it, so I wouldn't know. But if you say it does, I'll accept that that is what you believe.

    Meanwhile, if you're interested in an example of what pck was rightly talking about -- when he said, "Lots of scientists have misinterpreted or distorted the results of their great and admirable findings or have illegitimately extended them into territories where they are no longer valid." -- then I suggest you close Coyne's book, come up for some fresh air and read, e.g., here.

    3. something fatuous and inane like Genesis (which should begin with the words "Once upon a time" and not "In the beginning") tells us nothing about the nature of life on Earth.

    That would depend on the life one is talking about, and the manner in which Genesis is read. But if you mean to say that those who have not ears to hear do not hear, then I'm sure I can agree.

    - - - - -

    Comment moderation is on, Dr. Feser, who is always busy, is overly busy, and I don’t want to continue to give him reason to check to see if there are further comments in need of approval, so this is my last comment under the OP.

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  107. Barry,

    The Vatican guidelines for calculating the holiness of water are pretty straightforward:

    1. Measure out about a cup of blessed water.
    2. Fill the hydrometer tube up to about 2 inches from the top.
    3. Insert the hydrometer.
    4. Look where the liquid intersects the markings on the hydrometer.
    5. Record the gravity reading.
    6. Adjust the gravity reading for temperature.

    Formula for Calculating Holiness in Water
    * Subtract the Original Gravity (before blessing) from the Final Gravity (after blessing)
    * F Multiply this number by 131.25
    * The resulting number is your holiness by volume %
    In shorthand:
    (FG - OG) g)x 131.25 = HBV %

    I believe the minimum HBV level for water to be used in Roman rites at present is 40%, but don't quote me on that.

    So...yeah, not seeing the problem here.

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  108. pck,

    "If someone decides to name their car 'Mathilda', how is a differential diagnosis (before/after the naming) achieved? <...snip...> One's experiences cannot be captured by describing spatio-temporal distributions of matter. So we see that 'real' does not necessarily imply 'physical' or 'material'. Nor does 'physical' necessarily imply 'real':"

    In the context of the discussion (ultimate reality), this does not follow. But it does corroborate what I've previously said: Your philosophy is based on a radical relativism. In your philosophy, the reality of the car is inseparable from how you feel about it. There are two separate 'realities' about the car. My perception is that the car is simply a old Toyota Corolla. I have no emotional attachment to it. But in your subjective 'reality' of appearances, the true nature of that Corolla is fused with your feelings for Mathilda. Mathilda has given you many unforgettable experiences. The 'reality' of the car is moved from the objective nature of the car to the subjective framework of your mind. This radical relativism means that your perceptions define 'reality.' More importantly, it means that your perceptions do not define my 'reality.' So your philosophy undercuts itself. Ultimately there is no reason for anyone to accept anything you say about Mathilda, God, cause, actuality, reality or me. You're in a tree recklessly sawing off the branch you sit on.

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  109. Wow. I didn't realize that this thread was still ongoing!

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  110. Gottfried,

    Thanks for your response. Your deadpan "explanation" of holy water is lots of fun! "Don't quote me on that" is great. Love that.

    Barry

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  111. BL:
    I don't need to define or account for material reality. Neither do you. Go have a glass of water. There you go: you just experienced the material reality of water. You're welcome.

    This is uneducated nonsense for several reasons:

    1) A discussion about the meaning of words ("material reality") cannot be settled by referring to experiences (drinking water) alone.

    2) When we drink water, we don't experience its "material reality". We experience, depending on the situation, refreshment, taste and other sensory stimulations. "The material reality of water" is a concept which can be discussed, not experienced.

    3) However, the statement "drinking water is to experience water's material reality" is perfectly vacuous. It says nothing, since water is called "material" by definition. The "materiality" of water is not something we discover through experience or by experiment.

    4) If one took your claim seriously, chemistry and many other sciences that try to say more about the material reality of water would be obsolete or unintelligible. All physical sciences rely on some conception of material reality in order to be able to delineate their object language.

    5) You would never grant the following: "I don't need to define or account for the reality of gravity. Neither do you. Go jump off a chair. There you go: You have just experienced the reality of gravity." Obviously, no scientist can afford to think like this. Nor can a philosopher.

    The same words often have many different uses. As explained before, this even applies to seemingly simple everday notions such as "hot water". What counts as real depends on which particular use of "real" is being employed. What counts as an explanation of "X is real" or "X is material" varies acoordingly. The same goes for "holy", "hot", and so on. So if you are going to base some claim on a notion of "material reality", you need to clarify the sense of what you are talking about. Thus an account of "material reality" is necessary if you plan on saying something, as opposed to merely inveighing against ideas or practices of people you don't like.

    I can assure you that the people who go up to this spigot are not using it to get a cup of metaphor.

    I explicitly acknowledged the existence of those who use "holy" in a literal sense in the post you are responding to. So I don't know what you are trying to convince me of here.

    Jesus is "really, truly, substantially present" in the wafer. This is a zany (and ghoulish) belief, of course. But if some Catholics want to argue that "Transubstantiation" amounts to a metaphor or mere symbolism, then they are "bad" Catholics.

    I'm the wrong person to take your beef with Catholicism to since I'm not a Catholic. (As I told you.) Not all Catholics agree on transubstantiation. That's a simple fact which isn't going away because some Catholics are labelled "bad" by certain others.

    This is a philosophy/theology blog for the discussion of intellectual issues. It's not a personal anger outlet. That's what Twitter is for. If you are not planning on arguing anything (arguing as in explaining some idea or concept, as opposed to merely trying to stir up cheap quarrels through confused and blatantly uneducated assertions), you should stop posting here.

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  112. Don "if-then-or-else!" Jindra:
    In the context of the discussion (ultimate reality), this does not follow.

    If I have named my car "Mathilda", then that's what really happened. It doesn't get more ultimately real than that. (Even though naming a car is not something physical.)

    This radical relativism means that your perceptions define 'reality.'

    I'm the last person on earth who thinks that his perceptions "define reality". Whatever happens, with or without me perceiving it, is real. But this general statement doesn't get me very far. How I can or should talk about what happens or what is the case is not magically and uniquely fixed by "reality". It's impossible to talk about any of the details of reality without using conceptualization. Concepts function as a coordinate system we use to classify our experiences and also to extend our intellectual space. In the latter case they help us to establish new practices and be creative. But just as it is possible to describe the motion of the Moon around Earth in Cartesian or polar coordinates, so are different conceptual frameworks possible. Obviously, to ask whether (x,y) or (r,phi) "better describes reality" is nonsense.

    Regarding "perceptions", without concepts we couldn't even have perceptions. We could merely have sensory stimulation. So how do you "define reality" (whatever that means) without making use of perceptions? And which concept is the "right" one, (x,y) or (r,phi)?

    (Third or fourth time I have asked you this. Number of answers so far: 0)

    the true nature of that Corolla

    You never explain what the "true nature" of things is and how we are to come by it. How do I discover the "true nature of the Corolla" and how can I be sure that I have?

    (Third or fourth time I have asked you this. Number of answers so far: 0)

    The 'reality' of the car is moved from the objective nature of the car to the subjective framework of your mind.

    It's one of the eternal confusions of gnus and other naturalists to think that "objective" means "absolute". Both the subjective and the objective cannot exist without the mind. But that doesn't mean that only the "inner" is involved in either concept. "Objective", as I have explained before, refers to experiences that are sharable. For an objective statement to be made that "X is the case", there must be certain normative practices in place which determine what counts as X being the case. These practices are part of the framework that constitutes the sense of X. The framework owes nothing to "reality". It is as arbitrary as the rules of chess. What makes us accept or reject frameworks is not their truthfulness (they are neither true nor false), but their usefulness. This is no more a form of "radical relativism" than (x,y) and (r,phi) are "radically relative" methods to describe the moon's orbit. Or football and baseball being "radically relative" instances of ballgames. Neither football nor baseball depend on purely subjective notions. If they did, nobody would ever know when a game has been won, or even what a player had just done (strike, score, etc.).

    Many of our concepts do not fall strictly on one side of an inner/outer dichotomy. I have subjective perceptions of my car, but I ascribe the car's properties to the car, and not to my perceptions of it. Due to certain established normative practices inside and outside of language, my ascriptions can be shown to be true or false (sometimes there is a gray area). The fact that we could adopt different practices (linguistic and non-linguistic) for handling and talking about cars does not amount to a "radical relativism". It merely means that humans have the power to adopt more than one specific form of life.

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  113. @Gottfried:

    Great explanation of holy water. Barry's science sense will be tingling all week.

    Taylor:
    Wow. I didn't realize that this thread was still ongoing!

    It's Don's and Barry's fault. They just can't stop listening to me.

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  114. pck,

    You say that what I wrote about water is nonsense. But here's something you wrote: "The 'materiality' of water is not something we discover through experience or by experiment." Note: water has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. We know this because it's been measured. This is an objective fact about the world that is not up for debate. But you're differentiating between subjective ("water is refreshing") and objective (H2O)—and I don't know what this has to do with my main point, which is that "holy" water is a religious fiction.

    As for theology, not a scrap of it has explained anything about the world. Or in the words of Jerry Coyne, “Give me an example of a single truth about the universe that has been produced by theological inquiry.” The world is still waiting for an answer.

    Barry

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  115. BL:
    But here's something you wrote: "The 'materiality' of water is not something we discover through experience or by experiment." Note: water has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. We know this because it's been measured. This is an objective fact about the world that is not up for debate.

    The latter part about water being H2O and this being an objective fact is of course undisputed (at least for the technical sense of "water" as employed by chemistry). But all such technical objective facts about water can only exist because we defined what counts as finding hydrogen and oxygen before we conducted any water-experiments.

    Now you may say that the notions of hydrogen and oxygen were themselves inspired by other experiments. However, technical scientific concepts do not go "all the way down" for their justification through more and more therories. Scientific concepts are, ultimately, inspired by, but not discovered through experiments. (What is discovered is whether the predictions of said concepts are true or false.) No experiment in chemistry or any other natural science can establish the materiality of water. Materiality is a notion we adopt and employ before we (can) engage in any scientific endeavours. Materiality is not a property predicted and confirmed by theories and experiments. What theories and experiments in chemistry deal with is by definition [1] called "material". Thus you can discover that water is H2O, but you cannot discover that water is material. (Try to think of an experiment that could potentially falsify the claim that water is material. No such experiment is even conceivable. By contrast, an experiment that could potentially falsify that water=H2O can easily be thought of.)

    [1] "Definition" in this context means a common established linguistic practice (like the way you learn to use words as a child), as opposed to the dictionary-like definitions used by scientific theories, which presuppose the mastery of ordinary, non-technical language.

    As for theology, not a scrap of it has explained anything about the world.

    It's not the job of theology to explain the quantitative details of the world. That's what science is for. Which is acknowleged by theologians and philosophers (in the modern sense of the word) alike.

    Coyne: “Give me an example of a single truth about the universe that has been produced by theological inquiry.”

    If you subscribe to the metaphysical belief that quantitative details are all that there is to be known or discovered, then Coyne is correct (not even Coyne believes this, but he refuses to admit it when he gets angry, which is most of the time). But then you must discount the qualitative realities of human experiences, ethics, the notion of causation, the question why there is a universe at all, and many more issues. So for everyone who isn't wearing scientistic blinders (this includes athesists and agnostics), this is not the way to go.

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  116. I'm glad you enjoyed my comment, Barry, and I admire your good-humouredness(though I do worry that you might not have understood that the joke was on you).

    Anyway, as Glenn mentioned, moderation has been enabled and Dr. Feser is a busy man, so that's it for me. And while pck, at least, has been saying some interesting things, I think we can all agree that this thread is going nowhere.

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  117. Gottfried:
    I think we can all agree that this thread is going nowhere.

    Very true. This has gone on too long, so I'm calling it quits as well.

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  118. Gottfried,

    I thought the joke might have been on me, which I thought was odd because it puts you in a position of being an apologist for "holy" water. Why would you want to "defend" holy water? Why put the joke back on me when you had the option to agree with my position that "holy" water is a religious fiction? Fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say.

    pck,

    To address a few of your points (you in italics):

    But all such technical objective facts about water can only exist because we defined what counts as finding hydrogen and oxygen before we conducted any water experiments. Yes, it's called the scientific method. You form a hypothesis, you test the hypothesis, and then verify results with others. Here's one: Some properties of newly discovered elements were unpredictable, and then Mendeleev came along; noticed a pattern; predicted the properties of future elements; and was wildly successful.

    No experiment in chemistry or any other natural science can establish the materiality of water. So water is imaginary? I don’t understand that.

    It's not the job of theology to explain the quantitative details of the world. That's what science is for. You are grievously mistaken. Religion is not just about meanings and morals. Religion has been playing in the sandbox of science and making unfounded claims for as long as we can remember.

    If you subscribe to the metaphysical belief that quantitative details are all that there is to be known or discovered, then Coyne is correct. But then you must discount the qualitative realities of human experiences, ethics, the notion of causation, the question why there is a universe at all, and many more issues. I rather like something I wrote earlier in this thread so I'll say it again here. Are there things about existence that we don’t understand? Yes. What caused the Big Bang? We don’t know—and a “God did it”–type response isn’t an answer. We know how all life propagates (via evolution by natural and sexual selection), but how did life first emerge? Nobody knows (yet). In the meantime, the following can be said with confidence: If we ever do figure out how life emerged, I can assure you that a story about a despotic god who kills a lot of people (in the Old Book) but then sends a kindly “savior” (in the New Book), who gets murdered in a gruesome instance of blood sacrifice, won’t be part of the answer. As for ethics and congenial human relations, it's true that love and peace are more conducive to human flourishing than hate and violence, but we don't need Christianity or any religion to know this.

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