Thursday, August 13, 2015

Marriage inflation


When everyone is somebody, then no one’s anybody.

W. S. Gilbert, The Gondoliers

Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.

Garrison Keillor, A Prairie Home Companion

If you printed a lot of extra money and passed it around so as to make everyone wealthier, the end result would merely be dramatically to decrease the buying power of money.  If you make it easier for college students to get an “A” grade in their courses, the end result will be that “A” grades will come to be regarded as a much less reliable indicator of a student’s true merit.  If you give prizes to everyone who participates in a competition, winning a prize will cease to be a big deal.  In general, where X is perceived to have greater value than Y and you try to raise the value of Y by assimilating it to X, the actual result will instead be simply to lower the value of X to that of Y.

You will also merely relocate rather than eliminate the inequality you were trying to get rid of.  If money loses its value, then people will trade in something else -- precious metals, durable goods, or whatever -- and a different sort of economic inequality will arise.  If grades can no longer tell you which students are most likely to do well as employees or in graduate school, you’ll find some other way of determining this -- writing samples, interviews, letters of recommendation, or whatever -- and the hierarchy of student achievement will reassert itself.  If getting a prize ceases to impress, then athletes and others engaged in competitive enterprises will simply find some other way to stand out from the pack. 

Egalitarian schemes, in short, often have great inflationary effect but little actual egalitarian effect.  They can amount to mere exercises in mutual make-believe.  You can pretend all you want that all the children in Lake Wobegon are above average.  People who wish it were true may even go along with the pretense.  But of course, it isn’t true, and deep down everybody knows it isn’t true.  Hence even many who do pretend to believe it will act otherwise.  There will be a lot of pious chatter about how special all the children are, but no one will take the chatter very seriously and everyone will in practice treat the children differently according to their actual, differing abilities. 

Now, speaking of egalitarian pretense, consider the idea of “marriage equality,” which Justice Anthony Kennedy pretends to have stumbled upon somewhere in the U.S. Constitution on a Friday morning last June, with (so far) about 42% of the U.S. population going along with the gag.  Depending on the political needs of the moment, the proponents of “marriage equality” have also often pretended that their arguments wouldn’t support polygamy, incestuous marriage, you name it. 

But everyone knows this isn’t true.  For, contrary to some further pretense from the “marriage equality” crowd, the point about the implications of “marriage equality” has nothing to do with making a fallacious slippery slope inference, but rather with making a perfectly valid reductio ad absurdum inference.  A slippery slope fallacy fundamentally involves making a causal claim to the effect that A will lead to B, where there is at best a contingent connection between A and B and where no specific causal path from the one to the other has been established.  A reductio ad absurdum argument, by contrast, involves making a logical claim about the entailment relations between propositions.  In the present case, the idea is that if you not only remove heterosexuality and even fidelity from the essence of marriage, but in general treat the institution as essentially a matter of current social convention and legal stipulation rather than something grounded in nature, then in principle there is no limit to what might be counted as a “marriage.” 

To be sure, a causal claim follows from this logical point.  The causal claim is that, when people see the implications of the redefinition, they will start demanding further and even more radical redefinitions in the directions they favor; and that legislators and courts will have difficulty resisting these demands, because these further redefinitions are implicit in the premises that justified the original redefinition.  But (a) this causal claim is secondary to the logical claim, and (b) the logical claim, since it reveals a conceptual and thus non-contingent connection between the cause and the effect, explains the causal mechanism by which the claimed effects are likely to follow.  So, again, there is no slippery slope fallacy.

And sure enough, the logical and causal claims are being confirmed, it seems, with every passing week.  The latest instance is this week’s article in Slate advocating -- wait for it -- “marriages” between human beings and robots.  That’s on top of calls for “group marriage,” incestuous “marriage,” and “trial marriage.”  Further out on the fringes but still, it seems, a thing these days, is “self marriage.”   “Marriages” to animals and “marriages” to cartoon characters are also not lacking in advocates.

Now, the people who should be worried about all of this craziness are not the critics of “marriage equality.”  It just gives them an occasion to say “Told you so.”  The people who should be worried about it are the advocates of “marriage equality,” for two reasons.  First, because it gives the critics an occasion to say “Told you so.”  But second -- and more to the point of this post -- because it completely devalues the “marriage” label and thus undermines the whole point of the “marriage equality” movement, which was to dignify same-sex unions by sticking the “marriage” label on them

To paraphrase W.S. Gilbert’s line, when everything is a marriage, nothing is a marriage.  Or more precisely, marriage equality, followed out consistently, is marriage inflation.  The more kinds of arrangement there are which people are willing to call “marriages,” the less big a deal it is to have your own favored arrangement labeled a “marriage.”  “So Bob and Ted can now marry?  Whoop dee doo.  So can Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice, or Bob and his niece, or Bob and his iPod, or Bob and himself.”  What “marriage equality” gave with its left hand, it threatens to take back with its far left hand. 

That’s only half the problem, though.  Remember the other aspect of the Lake Wobegon phenomenon.  People talk more egalitarian, but they don’t necessarily think more egalitarian or act more egalitarian.  It’s not just that people will use the word “marriage” in a way that so cheapens it that it is no longer much of an honorific.  They will also continue to place greater value on the actual thing that was traditionally called “marriage” than they put on the newer so-called “marriages” -- just as they continue to put greater value on actual knowledge and ability even after the “A” grade has been devalued, greater value on actual athletic skill even after athletic prizes have been devalued, and so forth.

If you want to know what people really think is the essence of something, you look at how they describe the ideal specimen.  And everyone knows what people think of as the ideal marriage:  You fall in love, you have lots of kids, you watch them grow up and have kids of their own, and you stay faithful to each other through thick and thin and old age until death parts you

Why do people idealize this?  For one thing, because of the love it embodies, where by “love” I mean not merely the romantic feelings which get things going (but typically cool), but also and more importantly the self-sacrifice involved -- the lifetime surrender of one’s own narrow interests for the sake of spouse, children, and grandchildren.  For another thing, because of the tangible, fleshly tie with other human beings that it represents -- the literal biological connection with past and future generations, and with other living members of the current generation.  In other words, what people idealize in marriage is the perfection, and fusion, of the unitive and the procreative (to use the natural law jargon), the way complete self-giving completely enmeshes one in a literal family and extended family of other human beings. 

The novel arrangements people want to stick the “marriage” label onto are not like this.  All of them involve abstracting out mere aspects of the ideal -- romantic feelings, shared bed and board, legal rights, or what have you -- and redefining the whole in terms of those aspects.  All of these novel arrangements are products of the modern liberal ideology of individual autonomy, and thus all of them explicitly or implicitly rule out absolute, lifelong thick-and-thin commitment.   And except where people of the opposite sex are involved -- and not even there if use of contraception is the rule -- they do not involve the literal biological tie to other human beings that is the natural outcome of the sexual act.

To be sure, these arrangements can be made to seem kinda sorta like the ideal -- via surrogate or test tube parentage, for example.  And of course, as “marriage equality” advocates rightly emphasize, widespread fornication, widespread illegitimacy, easy divorce, and contraception have already moved us far away from the ideal in any case.  In practice, most people in the West are quite willing these days to settle for some distant approximation of the ideal, a watered down substitute, the marital equivalent of O’Douls or Splenda.  The novel “marital” arrangements simply push this tendency out to its logical extreme.  And evolutionary psychologists will assure us that our tendency to idealize the older model is in any event simply an artifact of the conditions under which our forebears evolved, without normative force today. 

Now, the natural law theorist will argue that it does have normative force.  (Cf. “In Defense of the Perverted Faculty Argument,” in Neo-Scholastic Essays.)  But that is neither here nor there for present purposes.  What matters for present purposes is that, whether or not it has normative force and whether or not people today are inclined to try very hard to live up to it, people do still regard the traditional marital arrangement described above as the ideal.  And they attach a dignity to that ideal that they do not attach to the mere approximations.  That old couple you know who’ve been together for 60 years and have five children and fifteen grandchildren has what we call a “marriage.”  And when some actor or pop star dumps his third wife and weds his mistress, we also call that a “marriage.”  But no one thinks that the latter arrangement has anything close to the dignity of the former, or that using the same word for both somehow suffices to make them equivalent. 

Similarly, expanding the use of the word “marriage” to cover various exotic arrangements no more extends dignity to those arrangements than freely giving out As to all the children in Lake Wobegon increases general student knowledge and ability.  With the former as with the latter, some people will think: “How adorable!  I’m glad they get to feel good about themselves.”  But few will seriously think that the exotic arrangements have anything close to the dignity that the traditional marital ideal has, any more than they really think that all the children in Lake Wobegon are above average. 

So, like the “A student” who comes to realize that his “achievement” was due to grade inflation, “marriage equality” advocates may soon wonder whether their victory was a hollow one.

280 comments:

  1. iwpoe,

    Apt observation.

    It was sarcasm. You're not a brilliant schemer, coldly calculating the political realities that surround you and coming up with the most effective strategy. Frankly, I'm split between regarding you as either someone who watches too much Game of Thrones, and yet another incarnation of someone arguing that 'we' should all give up on these issues because of the political climate, when the reality is you'd be counseling the same in any climate.

    Save yourself some time if you're pretending that somehow, in this situation, your principals, however true they are, shall come to power.

    You're the one thinking exclusively in terms of politics - not me. You also seem to be under the impression that what you should advocate or even personally believe comes down to a question of legislative success and nothing else.

    I suppose God might do all things, but even Christ councils us to prepare for evil to be the way of the world, and I take him on his word.

    If you suppose that a man should simply go and bring about virtue in a context where he is beset on all sides by disaster and opposition and his subjects are, themselves, vicious persons then you are foolish.

    Because if there's one thing Christ made clear in His teaching, it's that you should cut and run completely when the political pendulum swings against you, right?

    Like I said - feel free to try and convince yourself that spitting on the Cross and denying the Holy Spirit is the totally Christian thing to do when Christianity is unpopular, but it's pretty clear what you're selling.

    But hold on, 'Machiavelli' - an opportunity arises, and you find yourself with an ally! His name is Santi. Go right ahead and embrace your friend as he preaches the gospel you recommend Christians preach. Why, he even does it with the same attitude you're displaying here. Now, most of us regard Santi as a troll, but you're a fan of 'Nick', so you know better. Therein lies the path of modern Christian wisdom and power. Add a dash of Christ, talk a bit about salvation and God wanting us all to be happy, and you're set.

    Just as Christ counsels, right?

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  2. To sharpen the points I'm making here:

    Political success is a pretty terrible metric for deciding what one should believe in and advocate, at least for someone who's either a Christian, or even an Aristotilean in general. It's one thing to recognize that legislation of a given sort isn't going to pass - and even here things are tricky, since there's not a single legislative response to this topic. But it's another thing to start demanding that the expression of opposition be dropped altogether because it's unpopular and prospects of political success or widespread cultural success are dim. To hear some people talk, the real heretics in Christian history were the ones who refused to take part in pagan religious rituals and who ended up being put to death. What were they thinking? Their deaths were certain if they refused to submit - what a bunch of idiots, etc.

    At the same time, I notice an old pattern holding: the 'all is lost, we should give up and give in' cry inevitably goes up when the issue happens to be one a person would rather just ditch altogether anyway. So we get a situation here where accepting and encouraging gay marriage is A-OK because it's cast as inevitable and permanent, but when it comes to cultural acceptance of polyamory, polygamy, open marriages, etc - as others have noticed, suddenly anecdotes and speculation about 'real happiness' is enough to carry the day. So the cultural hostility towards criticizing same-sex marriage is taken as practically prescriptive, but the cultural hostility towards criticizing just about any consensual sexual behavior people engage in (including polyamory, etc) is not. Go figure.

    It hasn't come up as much in this thread, but I've also noticed that the cries of 'Surrender! The culture is just too strong in opposition!' is also mighty selective as far as cultures go. Russia, for example, has some pretty harsh anti-LGBT legislation - and the cultural wherewithal to back it up. In fact, said wherewithal has actually increased over the past decade, based on what I've read. Yet in the past I've noticed that the people who plea 'The culture is against the Christians on this, so the Christians should give this up!' aren't near as quick to, say, counsel surrender on the part of LGBT organizations or the like in Russia, or other countries/cultures. Suddenly, then and there, the willingness to fight against overwhelming odds is noble and should be encouraged. Again, go figure.

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  3. There's one point which has been touched on - by at least one Anon, plus Scott and Brandon - but not heavily discussed. That is the matter of non-sexual same-sex "marriages". Like most guys, from the time I left home, until marriage, I lived pretty much all the time with other guys. None of us were hopping into bed with one another, or so inclined. (In so far as any sex occurred, it was when someone "got lucky" with a girl.) Most of the single young women I knew were in similar living arrangements, with other women.

    The question is, under in our current position, why shouldn't such roommates today "marry" solely for the benefits they can get? I recall some years ago reading of a high-income couple who went to Puerto Rico every December to legally divorce, then remarried in January. They ended up with a free vacation, plus a profit. Now, aside from the fact that they usually don't have much money, what's to prevent bachelor roomies doing the same, if it profits them? And if so, do these relationships count as marriages?

    From the way the issue is usually discussed, it seems not. Certainly they don't meet the Harlequin-Romance pattern Kennedy seems to see as the paradigm. To that extent, they don't seem to be "marriages". Yet, to the outside world, how can you tell? Should we have the state investigate the emotional and sexual relations between all people living together, period? I doubt many would like that idea much (some would be fine with it, I know, but few, I think - or maybe just hope.)

    @Scott: To some extent the Catholic Church has for some time been in the position you cite (from Lewis & Tolkien) ever since divorce became commonplace. Sometimes I've been tempted to argue for Christians (or at least Catholics) to just drop out of legal marriage - to "live in sin" so far as Caesar is concerned. But given that we too break up far too much, the interests of the children rule that out. Such protections as the state still gives to their interests, it would be best to keep.

    @Brandon: You make a point about the stability of open marriages. I don't disagree, I've read some things to that effect, as well. Probably they are today. I do wonder whether they are, inherently, or whether it's a feature of our culture. (And I mean "wonder" literally; I don't know.)

    As I see it, there are 3 problems here.
    (a) It's only fairly recently that we have started amassing data systematically. Can anyone imagine a post-Kinsey-type study in 1870? I cannot.
    (b) Further, the divorce laws, and the taboos against divorce even where permitted, of earlier times make it hard to show such instability. There are still people alive who heard Edward VIII's abdication speech. Randolph Churchill simply was not going to divorce Jennie; it'd hurt his career.
    (c) There's a grey area about "open" marriages. The paradigm is the Bob&Carol&Ted&Alice model, but there've been lots of Sir William Hamilton types in history. They stayed together, and didn't make waves.

    I'm not sure what to make of this, plus, there is one other doubt in my mind. This is pure conjecture, and I present it as nothing more, but it might be a product of the absurd expectations people are taught to have of marriage today. Those who choose "open" marriage seem at least more clear-eyed than the seemingly vast number who thing that the "You, you, you, nobody but you, for ever" feeling will itself last, and that marriage should ensure, and is based on, its lasting. Sooner or later you notice that other beautiful women are still beautiful. If the Bingo Little stories were set in the world today, each would end in his marriage to the Only Girl in the World of the moment, and the next would begin with how he divorced her.

    OK, that's a bit formless. Are you aware of evidence from outside our current society, which bears on this; something I've missed?

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  4. "The question is, under in our current position, why shouldn't such roommates today "marry" solely for the benefits they can get? I recall some years ago reading of a high-income couple who went to Puerto Rico every December to legally divorce, then remarried in January. They ended up with a free vacation, plus a profit. Now, aside from the fact that they usually don't have much money, what's to prevent bachelor roomies doing the same, if it profits them? And if so, do these relationships count as marriages? "

    Many people have thought and asked the same ... for years now. Ive never seen an answer to the question of why, once an institution becomes a parody of itself, it should not - and does not deserve to - be gamed as the ludicrous and absurd charade it becomes.

    In fact, as I might have mentioned before, a movie along these lines was made a just few years back concerning two "slacker dudes" who decided to try the gambit. I don't recall the name, and it seems to have disappeared from the radar. Probably because of the sensitivities of the Bonobo class.

    Of course the famous "Green Card" film from 1990 treated the issue of a sham but technically legal heterosexual marriage. In that case, the Immigration authorities - who at that time were portrayed as intent on enforcing immigration law rather than subverting it - went checking in the bathroom of the protagonist's apartment in order to investigate for traces of an intimacy which would authenticate the marriage.

    What homosexualists might propose as a means of ensuring that their own "marriages" were not simply a gleeful doorway to the complete breakdown of any rationale for the political recognition of "marriage" whatsoever, one is left to gingerly wonder through hands held up in order to shield an unwilling imagination.

    In looking for the slacker "bro" movie parody of gay marriage, I came across this link which is just too funny to be true. Where Hollywood fears to tread any longer, reality, rears its expectably absurd head.

    Dude, you can't be serious!

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  5. George,

    To some extent the Catholic Church has for some time been in the position you cite (from Lewis & Tolkien) ever since divorce became commonplace. Sometimes I've been tempted to argue for Christians (or at least Catholics) to just drop out of legal marriage - to "live in sin" so far as Caesar is concerned. But given that we too break up far too much, the interests of the children rule that out. Such protections as the state still gives to their interests, it would be best to keep.

    As someone who is sympathetic to the 'drop out' argument - in fact, I'm sympathetic to outward cultural rejection of state marriage, such as it is - can you tell me what you have in mind here regarding the protections the state offers? I understand the general answer right away, but I'm hoping you can flesh this out. I'm skeptical that there are any protections the state offers that are unavailable otherwise, or that are all they're cracked up to be - but I also suspect this is a blind spot on my part.

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  6. George LeSauvage,

    As I think I might have mentioned near the beginning, my own view is that open marriages tend to register as more stable at present mostly just because of the kinds of personality that tend to get to the point of open marriage in the first place. A supplementary factor might be that entering into an open marriage is effectively to go into an open marriage with the understanding that, as long as certain rules are followed, neither spouse will divorce on the basis of one of the most common reasons why people divorce. But, as you note, the amount of evidence is a fairly limited thing -- it's just that that's the evidence that we actually have.

    My suspicion, although only a suspicion, is that culture does play a role, although I don't think American culture is favorable to open marriages at all. (It would be very different, perhaps, if we are talking about France.) It reminds me of the American support for the ideal of protecting infants, which is a support for something abstract -- it doesn't necessarily translate into personal action with respect to particular babies -- but is nonetheless quite vehement and will be forcefully enforced -- if only as an abstract ideal -- even by people whose political and social arguments make no sense in light of that ideal. American support for the ideal of monogamous marriage seems to me to be similarly abstract but vehement. Overwhelmingly, Americans insist that marriage should be monogamous and exclusive; many more people than act accordingly, in fact. That can change, of course, but it seems the momentum's currently there.

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  7. Boccaccian argument in favour of same sex marriage:

    Were it not to go ahead then Catholics would lose many opportunities to engage and rally together with co-religionists.

    (Honestly if the same amount of sheer effort spent campaigning against SSM were spent studying professional atheist philosophers then Tooley and co would be working at the local drive-in by now)

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  8. DNW:

    Is this the movie you were looking for?

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  9. iwpoe:

    Also, *legal* spouses in the US have certain rights with respect to each other that are not clearly derivative from the childbearing aspect of their union.

    This is true and it's a point (though not necessarily a decisive one) in favor of extending such protections to domestic partnerships independent of the sexes of the partners. But it's also a point (again not necessarily a decisive one) in favor of the view that such partnerships aren't in principle based on sex in the first place and that, also independently of the sexes of the partners, they should therefore be (heh) "decoupled" from traditional marriage.

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  10. Everybody needs to get over this. Don't you all know that probably within 10 years VIRTUAL SEX will be a reality, and "marriage equality" will be a quaint notion?

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  11. "Do you realize how illiberal a view this is and ought be rejected by every "don't tread on me"-type of American, i.e., all of us? It will be dismissed by everyone with a clear mind here. It runs contrary to the Jeffersonian idea we are implicitly created equal and dignified as such naturally prior to any state conferring anything onto anyone. "

    Ah, the conservatism of a spirited man- centered on independence. My right-wing leanings are derived from emotional detachment- the stoic, not the patrician -so I suspect we view leading and being led differently.

    That said, I am fairly certain that you have confused in me two different senses of 'dignity'. I mean honor, esteem, public respectability- the sort of thing one might get from a medal of valor -not 'inherent dignity' or worth. This is a separate concept. A decorated veteran has more dignity, in the sense of 'esteem' that the undecorated average civilian, but he does not have more dignity in your sense, as in individual worth and standing.

    The idea that the state can't grant *esteem* or honor in the above sense is, itself, disconcerting. It clearly can and does, and large swaths of men, even very independent and valorous men, are by no means above being motivated by that sort of respect. Moreover, the state clearly has no monopoly over this sort of "dignity". Corporations, local associations, even sporting groups and competitive gatherings of various kinds can and often do grant that sort of "dignity" without this quasi-conspiratorial and histrionic worry of the state looming over the horizon.

    "Lastly, you seem to think same-sex couples being official recognized as marriages will influence them to be more monogamous."

    *Will* is far to strong a word, but yes, I'm optimistic that it can serve as a positive influence. My only other viable political move given the circumstances is quietism, since the set of things needed to actually correct the marriage situation back to its earlier state are politically non-viable.

    "Ignoring the reduction ad absurdum of redefining marriage [...] you're forgetting that homosexuals have the same impoverished [...] view of "love" as heterosexuals do"

    I don't ignore it, I simply become tired of speaking over and over of marriage and "marriage" when everyone here understands the distinction, and the point you're making isn't ultimately relevant to the specific thing I'm talking about.

    I agree that it's impoverished, but their egalitarian success can eventually teach them (though it will be a long slow road, as it has been for women on the one hand and feminism on the other) that their instability and failure really is their responsibility after all. Plus legitimacy really ruins the idea that it's important to shove the most over the top gay things you can think of in everyone's faces. I hope that their having their way will encourage in at least a sizable portion a good measure of discipline. Women found careers, though did not manage to do them just as men have, and I should hope that homosexuals can find a measure of peace. Maybe they never can, but I'm not going to teach them that with some one or two restrictive statutes.

    "The promiscuity of bath houses and movie theaters and the AIDS epidemic did happen."

    And has declined. :shrug:

    I should hope it declines further. It may well never, but I want to be clear about what I intend to expect from a legitimized homosexual population.

    "This legacy hasn't exactly gone away either [...] and cannot be ignored."

    I don't ignore them. Given the political situation, I want to accept homosexuals with open arms and then crush that aspect of their culture as much as possible.

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  12. "when the reality is you'd be counseling the same in any climate."

    I still don't know who you're pretending to talk to.

    At any rate, I don't think that I'm wrong about the dire political situation the standing party platform on gay marriage is in. I'm not celebrating that fact. If this was still 1990, I would think that anti-gay marriage statutory action would indeed be necessary but urge cultural evangelism to try and affect some kind of revival of marriage amongst the whole population.

    I mean, look, I'm fully open to correction on this point. If you think that it's plausible that the political process can, one way or the other, reverse these judicial changes and find a way to affect strong cultural change on the matter back towards traditional marriage, then by all means, that should happen. The best hope I can see short term is a new conservative Justice, but that's highly contingent upon the presidential election, the death of the right people, and their replacement by the right people- followed by the right case coming up for review. You're looking at 5+ years on that. Otherwise you need a both a super-majority of die-hard anti-gay marriage people in both legislative houses *and* a constitutional amendment.

    And *even if* you manage any of that, what victory do you ultimately have? The youth are, at least at present, if opinion polls and anecdotal experience with millennials shows anything, irredeemably lost on the matter. How do you propose to keep them from coming in and mucking things right back up 10, 20, or 30 years later? *That's* the situation. So I do not have a lot of political hope for a direct approach. Feel free to berate hope into me, if you like, but I don't see how one can.

    "But it's another thing to start demanding that the expression of opposition be dropped altogether because it's unpopular and prospects of political success or widespread cultural success are dim."

    This is never what I called for. I simply think that further *political* expression of opposition *as has been done for 20+ years* is a waste of *political* time. Trying to pass another DOMA or a marriage amendment is a waste of resources.

    I fully expect, even demand, that institutions such as the Churches continue to express opposition, but this not the same thing as throwing money at candidates who facilely promise to overturn gay marriage or trying to run on that platform.

    "Like I said - feel free to try and convince yourself that spitting on the Cross and denying the Holy Spirit is the totally Christian thing to do when Christianity is unpopular, but it's pretty clear what you're selling."

    Raw, crass, libel.

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  13. @ Scott

    "This is true and it's a point (though not necessarily a decisive one) in favor of extending such protections to domestic partnerships independent of the sexes of the partners. But it's also a point (again not necessarily a decisive one) in favor of the view that such partnerships aren't in principle based on sex in the first place and that, also independently of the sexes of the partners, they should therefore be (heh) "decoupled" from traditional marriage."

    Well, again, I agree with you. There is nothing particularly charming to letting them have the name marriage *also*. I see why homosexual legal advocates went the legal rout they did (it was easier than trying to forge a new national institution), but it has little to do with the rational equivalence of both situations.

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  14. The OFloinn:

    You said (sarcastically): "If only there were some process -- let's call it 'evolution'--that would select for women's bodies with the capacity to bear children."

    So evolution has made women baby-making machines, eh? That's the function their bodies obviously drive them to, and that's what they ought to submit to. Is that your argument?

    But don't you agree that evolution creates each of us as a modular organism, tugging in contingent and sometimes contradictory--and sometimes complimentary--directions? In other words, don't you agree that evolutionary selection tugs, at the same exact time, in different directions within the same organism?

    For example, take the reduction of jaw size in humans. Biologists tell us that weak jaw muscles (compared to other primates) are an instance of form following behavior. When we started cooking meat over fires, it softened the meat in such a way that evolutionary selection, to save energy, favored the reduction of jaw size in our species. This also just happened to reduce muscle pressure over the cranium, giving evolution an additional opportunity for favoring even larger brains.

    Now apply this sort of modular variation to women's bodies and brains. On the one hand, evolution has placed evolutionary pressure on women to be able to survive multiple pregnancies. On the other, there is also independent evolutionary pressure on generating ever more intelligent brains with the smartest males among our species.

    The result obviously leads to the pull of different impulses within the same organism. Shall a woman's reproductive strategy focus on education (and meeting men with the highest educations), feminist independence, and equality, using birth control to assure that she has only one child before age 40, or shall she adopt a reproductive strategy grounded in high fertility?

    Which one proves to be a winning strategy (from an evolutionary standpoint) depends on the contingent environment to which it is applied (medieval Europe at the time of Aquinas vs. the concrete jungle of New York, circa 2015).

    So tell me why women should let their sexual form tell them what their behavior should be (as opposed to the form of their brains). Both body and brain undergo independent evolutionary selection pressures, generating different desires in each part. And you know (I presume) that evolutionary biologists have long established that behavior tends to precede changes in biological form, placing evolutionary pressure on form (the flying squirrel's ancestors didn't start with flaps under the arms, but with the daring behavior of leaping between trees).

    Again, why should form--a woman's bodily form--be the chief clue to dictating behavior (bodily "essence" preceding behavior)?

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  15. I mean, look, I'm fully open to correction on this point. If you think that it's plausible that the political process can, one way or the other, reverse these judicial changes and find a way to affect strong cultural change on the matter back towards traditional marriage, then by all means, that should happen.

    I'm going to try switching gears with you - because at this point I wonder if you're getting what's being said.

    Seriously, I've said multiple times now that the entire approach of treating this question as exclusively legislative is wrong-headed, and your response is to apparently act like that wasn't mentioned. In fact, you act like all I've said is 'Our priority should be to strike down same-sex marriage legislatively!' That's a problem.

    I fully expect, even demand, that institutions such as the Churches continue to express opposition, but this not the same thing as throwing money at candidates who facilely promise to overturn gay marriage or trying to run on that platform.

    Do me this favor. Show me who has advocated that here? In particular, show me where I've advocated for it. For that matter, I don't even know of a candidate running on that platform.

    As for 'that has declined', you're talking about a decline to what - 50% or higher among males? For lesbians, given their health statistics, I suggest that their infidelity rates have far less to do with the remote available of a marriage license in some states than collectively deciding that, if the choice is between sex and a big box of cookies, the cookies win every time.

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  16. "Seriously, I've said multiple times now that the entire approach of treating this question as exclusively legislative is wrong-headed,"

    I agree substantively with the natural-law reasoning on the matter (though not totally). I have no disagreement there. Do you want to exposit natural law together when we both likely agree? No?

    Then the remaining problematic of concern for discussion seems primarily political and personal. That is obviously not the same as claiming that this is all there is to say- it's merely all I find interesting left to talk about.

    I suppose we could shift gears to how one should act in private and amongst friends and relatives, but since I suspect neither of us are homosexual, we're unlikely to have any disagreement about personal behavior in the face of the change in marital climate.

    "For that matter, I don't even know of a candidate running on that platform."

    Huckabee tacitly has- though perhaps his expression of opposition amounts to nothing but pandering -and it has been a matter of common dissent amongst the republican candidates (though, again, perhaps this is merely pandering).

    "As for 'that has declined', you're talking about a decline to what - 50% or higher among males?"

    That is a tremendous moderation since the 70s, and most young gays want to be in a monogamous relationship by their 30s. This may be a naive hope, but my optimism is cautious. I don't know how far culture, will, and what's left of nature that still applies to the situation can go on the matter, but ****politically**** (i.e. not merely ethically, i.e. not all there is to say is political), I would suggest encouraging, as much as possible further moderation.

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  17. iwpoe:

    I see why homosexual legal advocates went the legal rout they did (it was easier than trying to forge a new national institution)[.]

    Especially since there was so much legal precedent on the old one. For better or worse (←heh, see what I did there?), the broad effect of 20th-century SCOTUS rulings on the subject (especially from the Warren Court but in fact starting well before) was to establish marriage as an individual right that had more to do, and eventually all but exclusively to do, with privacy and self-expression than with reproduction and parental obligation.

    And again, I don't necessarily object to claims that the government should acknowledge, and provide certain legal protections for, certain domestic-type relationships that aren't based directly on reproduction. Certainly there are some legal rights (testimonial privileges, hospital visitation rights, "default" rules of inheritance, etc.) that aren't thus based on reproduction and that I'd agree should be available to same-sex unions if they're available (as they are) willy-nilly to all opposite-sex unions independently of their indissolubility, sexual fidelity, and so forth. I simply deny that such unions (whether hetero- or homosexual) automatically deserve the same levels and kinds of legal protection as plain reg'lar ol' marriage.

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  18. (That second paragraph isn't intended as disagreement, by the way—just restatement and clarification/elaboration.)

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  19. iwpoe,

    Then the remaining problematic of concern for discussion seems primarily political and personal.

    No, it's not. Not unless you literally count everything - from not just personal conduct, to business conduct, to personal and cultural and religious approaches towards others, to attitude and more, as personal. Calling it 'political', I doubt even you'd go that far.

    Regardless - say you find it's all that's interesting to talk about. But that would have to mean that that's the lens you interpret every comment through, which frankly is not serving you well. Especially since to you, 'personal' seems to be wrapped up with 'only applicable if you're at all homosexually inclined'.

    Huckabee tacitly has-

    Huckabee's a singular candidate that no one's really paying attention to, and even he at most is offering a 'resist' attitude versus pretending it's politically viable to pass a constitutional amendment.

    I submit you are fighting mightily against a foe who has not appeared in these comments.

    That is a tremendous moderation since the 70s,

    Take a good look at what's been happening with heterosexual marriage since the 70s while you're at it, along with heterosexual sexual culture in general. Which is relevant because that's the positive influence you're hoping will pay off in the LGBT community.

    While you're at it, you may want to have a look at sodomy rates - among heterosexuals. And there you can draw at least one direct line of influence from the LGBT subculture.

    and most young gays want to be in a monogamous relationship by their 30s.

    Beware anyone, or any study, which talks about what kind of life someone hopes to live in the at-that-point distant future.

    but ****politically**** (i.e. not merely ethically, i.e. not all there is to say is political), I would suggest encouraging, as much as possible further moderation.

    Politically, in the legislative sense, you have no say. Really, none. What in the world could you possibly 'politically' encourage on this front? At best: 'Use condoms so you don't get diseases.' Show me the political encouragement for monogamy - and realize that 'marriage' ain't it.

    Culturally and personally, the only way to encourage what you're talking about requires tacitly accepting the entire arrangement as moral to begin with - which is surrender even beyond the political sphere.

    I know it's as close to a modern blasphemy as some people can identify, but sometimes the only real option on the table is to embrace and encourage that which is culturally unpopular, or discourage that which is popular - proudly.

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  20. What in the world could you possibly 'politically' encourage on this front?

    Because a person born a man cannot breastfeed an adopted infant with his male "marital" spouse, and that couple may one day fall upon hard times; therefore needing to apply for federal funding through some state program that supplies powder formula substitutes to feed an infant.

    But certainly the state already ruled that it is his individual protected right to become his true gender by undergoing surgery for breast implants, understandably because he felt strong womanly instinct to breastfeed a child.

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  21. Anon,

    Because a person born a man cannot breastfeed an adopted infant with his male "marital" spouse,

    I meant from the traditional standpoint. The idea that there's some 'political' apparatus in place to encourage monogamous unions is, I think, fantasy. Not even civil marriage does that - certainly not legally. There are, at best, cultural mores that most people are petrified of bringing up (and the ones who aren't petrified to bring them up tend to be sorts who others would lift their noses at - not we of the refined castes of Christianity).

    And that's not even a problem specific to traditionalists or even conservatives. Cowardice is rampant, as a meek and cowering Sanders and O'Malley demonstrate.

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  22. @Crude:

    (Sorry for the delay; I have a very sick wife, and am working weird hours.)

    I don't know a lot about the law here, but there still are some provisions protecting abandoned children and wives. (I, too, doubt they're all their cracked up to be.) But my comment was mostly an example of how I try to resist my natural inclination to let it burn, and remember that however justified that may be, what can be done for the innocent victims, should be. That's my Burkean side, in tension with the stronger "screw 'em all" tendency in my character. I try to remember that the latter isn't all that rational. At first, I thought iwpoe was embracing SSM; now I see he isn't, then the argument between you and him seems largely prudential. And since prudence is not the virtue I'm best at, I don't have much to throw in.

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  23. Scott:

    You wrote that in the 20th century the courts established "marriage as an individual right that had more to do, and eventually all but exclusively to do, with privacy and self-expression than with reproduction and parental obligation."

    It's stronger than that. It's a human right. A human right. It's included in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    And when you combine marriage as a human right with the deliverances of science over the past forty years surrounding homosexuality (it's a biological trait, not an objective psychological disorder), your separate-but-equal position simply cannot hold water.

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  24. Scott:

    You wrote: "I simply deny that such [civil] unions (whether hetero- or homosexual) automatically deserve the same levels and kinds of legal protection as plain reg'lar ol' marriage."

    Well, gosh, good ol' reg'lar Charlie Brown, you can "simply deny" whatever you want absent argument, but what it translates to is this: the infertile and elderly heterosexual couples drink from this fountain here, and the gay and lesbian couples drink at this fountain over there.

    Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever?

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  25. George,

    Not a problem. I lean more towards the 'let it burn' view at times, but I'm not exactly committed to it. In fact, at a glance the legal situation for civil marriages to me seems like largely a wreck as-is.

    I agree about iwpoe, but I still don't understand what they're talking about here. Again, where's this legal encouragement for monogamy coming from, or even supposed to look like? I can't help but come away with the impression that what some people are trying to find a kind of path of least resistance, where they can say that they're at least defending some aspects of a moral lifestyle, even while they strenuously tiptoe around the landmines.

    I think that's been the attitude of many people for a couple decades now - avoid conflict, emphasize the positive, minimize the controversial. It hasn't really worked out well. And that, again, is not a 'social conservative' issue, it's an 'everything' issue.

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  26. Crude:

    You wrote with admiration (!): "Russia, for example, has some pretty harsh anti-LGBT legislation - and the cultural wherewithal to back it up."

    When you wrote this, did you mean to endorse and defend open violence and discrimination against gay and lesbian people?

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  27. Santi,

    Congratulations, it's time my once-per-thread-max addressing of your petty little self.

    You wrote with admiration

    You don't know how to read, and you're not worthy of serious discourse. Now blow (!), you pissant.

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  28. George and DNW:

    DNW wrote in response to George: "Ive never seen an answer to the question of why, once an institution becomes a parody of itself, it should not - and does not deserve to - be gamed as the ludicrous and absurd charade it becomes."

    Oh, such a huff-po (po-huff?)! Such feigned outrage! And what Puritanism! To the pure, all things are impure.

    But before I answer DNW's long asked question, may I ask: Are George or DNW (or Feser, for that matter) as severe with themselves as they are with others? Do they actually practice what they preach?

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  29. Now for an answer to DNW's question (and, implicitly, George's and Crude's): Gay and lesbian intimate relationships are not ludicrous and absurd, and heterosexuals have made a charade of marriage from time immemorial. There's no recent comeuppance here. Heterosexuals don't just marry for love and childbearing--indeed, for one or both members of a marriage, these may not even be in the picture at all. Instead, heterosexuals often marry and stay married for all sorts of conventionally dishonest reasons: displays of power by elderly men (the trophy wife), security, deception, power, money, property, staying together solely for the kids, tax breaks, men exploiting women for cheap domestic labor, sadism, lack of better options, etc.

    Marriage has never been a pure and non-evolving institution that has been suddenly sullied by gay and lesbian participation in CIVIL marriage. Instead, it's been an institution aligned with certain forms of power (often corrupt and hypocritical); with, in many instances, the control of women. It's ALWAYS been fraught with psychological and emotional landmines and double-binds.

    And marriage has, historically, been an institution where women have been permitted to exercise little or no agency, not even in the selection of their own husbands. Homosexual marriage should be experimented with--if for no other reason--to give women an opportunity to detox from patriarchy; to work out alternative ways of being coupled in the world; to demonstrate possibilities. And as scientific alternatives to traditional reproduction gain traction, the infertility argument weakens with each new year.

    So in case you missed it, Jane Austen precedes Stonewall. Fixing Stonewall (were it in need of fixing) doesn't fix the heterosexual marital politics, hypocrisy, and shenanigans in Jane Austen.

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  30. Speaking more on the idea of 'political' approaches...

    I think they're a mistake in general, and should generally be regarded as the last rather than first resort when dealing with social issues typically. Aside from abortion, what with it being as clear a case of criminal and morally toxic behavior as anything can be outside of a snuff film.

    I said with George that I lean more and more towards a 'let it burn' philosophy, though I'm open to correction on that point. And it's going to burn in part, no matter what - the interest has never been in 'marriage', the legal state and recognition. It's always been 'slavish respect and obedience to the union', which is not in the cards for any serious Christian, A-T thinker, or really - most people who have an ounce of pride and an intellectual disagreement with the joke that is the same-sex marriage.

    That's a fact I think people forget. You're not dealing with people who, gosh darn it, just want to be married - you'd think that would have been recognized during the first time someone was fired for opposing same-sex marriage (despite having zero allegations of mistreating any LGBT employees), the first time someone's business was targeted for destruction by the enthusiastic hordes. The mere act of disagreement makes you a target and drives these people - activists, not LGBT people at large - utterly crazy. These are not a group known for tolerating dissent well.

    Which is why the idea that political surrender on the question of same-sex marriage - offered as a way to 'move on' - simply doesn't work. Do you still think same-sex marriage is a farce? Bad news then: the issue isn't dropped, then. 'But I believe in treating LGBT people with respect, even if I disagree with them!'? Great, same here. It's still not enough.

    I'd go so far as to say, even if you embrace cowardice further and out and out refuse to ever discuss the issue in public, it's not going to be enough. The silence will speak volumes, and it's equivalent to dissent.

    Even LGBT people are starting to realize these activists are just out of their minds, a bit like how various irreligious eventually woke up to the fact that, gee, Myers and Dawkins and company are a pack of jackasses. Unfortunately, they're the jackasses who are running the political show for their subcultures.

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  31. ...just got back from a LGBT-pogrom here in Moscow, complete with sabre-wielding cossacks.
    The police were there, of course, to guide the hordes of drooling murderous homophobes (civilian volunteers) that most of us Russians are. I believe the pogrom will be broadcasted on (at least) national TV soon enough (for the sake of comrades who unfortunately couldn't make it), don't miss it.

    If you yankees want to engage in open violence against LGBTs, do practice temperance: excess breeds dissatisfaction.

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  32. A piece of unsolicited advice from a secular person for bringing down the temperature around the gay and lesbian marriage issue--and elevating respect for monotheists generally: live and let live.

    But by live, I mean really live. Find a life. A real life.

    Let the pure (in their own minds) generate pure communities. Rather than forcing their currently inconstant ways of being on unwilling others by law, force, and violence, let them repent of their own sins, and put their own marital houses in order, directing their energy and vision into the communal building of voluntary neighborhoods and exemplary religious communities "set upon hills."

    If your way of being is so terrific, live it out with like-minded others in such a way that outsiders will be spontaneously attracted to it, and flock to participate in the "happening." Let your community be an example and refuge to flee to when secular experiments fail (if they fail).

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  33. The police were there, of course, to guide the hordes of drooling murderous homophobes (civilian volunteers) that most of us Russians are. I believe the pogrom will be broadcasted on (at least) national TV soon enough (for the sake of comrades who unfortunately couldn't make it), don't miss it.

    Indeed, complete with Putin himself making an appearance, where he will display the latest Russian technological marvel - a gun that can kill rainbows.

    Whether he will be riding a tiger or a bear at the time is currently undecided.

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  34. I see a certain commenter has mentioned Jane Austen.

    But if one pre-20th century woman author is to be mentioned, why not quote from another?

    o Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot

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  35. D: Why wouldn't you describe any gay couples this way? I know several in my own life who fit that description as well as any other heterosexual couple I know.

    You know homosexual couples who can reproduce?! Are you sure you mean to post that here and not at jerryspringer.com?


    D: Why ought we not think about gay marriage (and yes - the *traditional values* it embodies - commitment, fidelity, love, etc) as the battering ram against those portions of the gay counter-culture? Why ought we not think the flow would be THAT direction?

    The flow wouldn’t be in that direction because the flow isn’t in that direction. Same-sex pseudo-marriage didn’t appear out of nowhere; it’s part of the very flow away from what marriage is really about.



    Don Jindra: The rest of the world be damned.

    Well, that sums up the modern view in a nutshell.


    Don Jindra: what pressures am I supposed to feel? What's so flimsy about my 40 year marriage that a gay couple will cause me to jump ship?

    I think you misunderstand the answer because you’ve misunderstood the question. You’ve already jumped ship.



    Crude: It's had to do with an essentially united media and cultural forces people are struggling even now to cope with.

    Yes. Of course, there is always the question of how there came to be such an opposing media force in a [once?] predominantly Christian country. (I don’t mean how historically did it transpire, I mean why is there not a united Christian media to rival it.)



    GoldRush Apple: If they can't use either one they'll use people who deny science.

    Incidentally, have you ever met anyone who “denies science”? I sure haven’t. I know some people reject some particular claims of some scientists, but they hardly deny science tout court. Besides, surely someone who denies that babies are living people or that men are men and women are women would be a vastly better candidate for scientifical denialerist….

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  36. Iwpoe: What you have to tolerate legally and publicly is a function of the political, unless you would be a martyr, which is an option.

    Actually, it’s not an option. Christians all must be martyrs — not all of us must witness to the point of death, but we are all called to bear witness. Political or social or other worldly measures of success are not required.

    Iwpoe: But I think monogamy has a rational basis *even when children are impossible*, because it's psychologically better for everyone involved.

    Well, I’m not sure how someone can be mono-gamous when he isn’t married. (No, philosophy is not just a branch of etymology, but words have meanings, and we ought to pay them an appropriate amount of respect.)
    Your proposal seems suspiciously like justifying the means by the ends, or two wrongs’ making a right, or something: since the unmarried relationship in question isn’t moral, we can’t recommend it, not even in a context that has some good side-effect.
    But let’s suppose the idea is that there is some good aspect mixed in to the relationship that we want to encourage; the problem is that it’s not going to be a marital aspect, because the relationship just isn’t like a marriage. If anything, maybe there is something like a friendship in there, but friendships are not the kind of thing that needs to be restricted to two people to be psychologically healthy. So going along with the gag that it’s anything like a marriage is disingenuous, and on top of that, it may be inadvertently debilitating the proper understanding of friendship as well.


    Scott: Certainly there are some legal rights (testimonial privileges, hospital visitation rights, "default" rules of inheritance, etc.) that aren't thus based on reproduction and that I'd agree should be available to same-sex unions if they're available (as they are) willy-nilly to all opposite-sex unions independently of their indissolubility, sexual fidelity, and so forth.

    Surely hospitals’ visitation policies are just that — if you don’t like a hospital’s rules, the correct course of action would be to ask the hospital to change them. (I’m not even sure all the other examples are independent of marital specifics… for example, testimonial privilege can't simply be based on some expectation of privacy with a confidant, or it would apply as much or more to best friends as to spouses.) On the other hand, perhaps you are thinking that there are areas that could have an alternative legitimate justification, even if in practice it would be used in the current climate as propaganda by rhetorically linking it to marriage regardless.

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  37. Mr. Green:

    On the other hand, perhaps you are thinking that there are areas that could have an alternative legitimate justification, even if in practice it would be used in the current climate as propaganda by rhetorically linking it to marriage regardless.

    Yes, that's pretty much what I had in mind. My point was that the legal rights in question aren't directly related to reproduction in the first place, so if (and this significant word was emphasized in my earlier post as well) they're extended even to opposite-sex civil unions that aren't committed to monogamy, fidelity, indissolubility, and the other usual marks of marriage, there doesn't seem to me to be any basis for denying them to same-sex unions either.

    It's important to bear in mind here as well, of course, that in neither case—opposite-sex or same-sex—do I approve of identifying the union as a "marriage," full stop, although I don't object to distinguishing among "civil marriage," "natural marriage," and "sacramental marriage." (Or at least I don't yet; I'm certainly open to arguments that it's a bad idea to use even the term "civil marriage" to cover all civil unions.) And I've said elsewhere that I'd like it just fine if the Church stopped viewing civil marriages as valid by default.

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  38. Georgy wrote: "...just got back from a LGBT-pogrom here in Moscow, complete with sabre-wielding cossacks. The police were there, of course, to guide the hordes of drooling murderous homophobes (civilian volunteers) that most of us Russians are. I believe the pogrom will be broadcasted on (at least) national TV soon enough (for the sake of comrades who unfortunately couldn't make it), don't miss it."

    Given that Feser persists in putting gay marriage in scare quotes, and trivializes gay and lesbian intimate relationships with casual abandon, it's hardly surprising that he has begun to attract to his site people who show indifference to, or express outright cynicism toward, the plight of gays and lesbians in Putin's Russia.

    But as one can see from the recent HBO documentary on gays in Russia, harassment--and even vigilante groups literally hunting gays--is a serious matter.

    Being anti-gay is Russia's new antisemitism.

    The documentary I'm referring to is titled, Hunted: The War Against Gays In Russia, and it can be found at YouTube with a Google search.

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  39. Scott,

    And I've said elsewhere that I'd like it just fine if the Church stopped viewing civil marriages as valid by default.

    Not just the church, though having the church say as much would really be a boon. Even with the same-sex fake-marriage schtick put aside, I think various issues have made it necessary to regard civil marriage as pretty well a joke. Religious marriage, typically? A very different story, even beyond the Christian faiths.

    What I find odd about all that is the following. The validity of a marriage is tied up, at least in part, with the intentions of the participants, right? As in, if two people decide to get married - even a man and a woman - with the idea that the whole thing's essentially temporary, children aren't intended and in fact they not only do not want children but will actively try to avoid having any, etc... isn't this the sort of thing that would result in the marriage being regarded as invalid outside of the gates? Hell, if even one of the participants had this intention, wouldn't it be grounds for an annulment?

    If that's the case, I suspect the topic has been so touchy that people have preferred to bury it and not think about it. Doesn't seem like that can be done any longer.

    In that way, same-sex marriage just makes it a bit easier not to take civil marriage seriously. Call it the clown nose being put on the clown.

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  40. Santi said...

    "George and DNW:

    DNW wrote in response to George: "Ive never seen an answer to the question of why, once an institution becomes a parody of itself, it should not - and does not deserve to - be gamed as the ludicrous and absurd charade it becomes." "

    "Now for an answer to DNW's question (and, implicitly, George's and Crude's): Gay and lesbian intimate relationships are not ludicrous and absurd, and heterosexuals have made a charade of marriage from time immemorial. "



    That's not really an answer of any kind, is it, champ. It's not even a bad answer as to: why an institution become a parody of itself should not be gamed as the ludicrous charade it then is.

    All you've done here, is presumably claim that the institution was so devalued that letting boy buggers in won't make it much worse.

    Yet, as your comical pique at the slacker opportunist scenario seems to bear out, you still seem to retain the capacity for outrage when some exclusionary boundary you value is transgressed, and the neighborhood is resultantly cheapened ...

    Apparently you imagine that what the inclusion of sexual lunatics in the institution of marriage won't do to its reputation and respectability, a couple of insurance gaming slackers might.

    But as the link I earlier provided shows, it isn't just beer swilling hetero frat boys who notice you have shot yourself in the foot.

    Everyone gets a good laugh out of it. You just bought deck space on the Titanic, chump.

    Hope you have your own lifeboat. I do. And while there is plenty of room in it, there isn't enough for you.


    " ... Heterosexuals don't just marry for love and childbearing--indeed, for one or both members of a marriage, these may not even be in the picture at all. Instead, heterosexuals often marry and ..."

    Stop your pointless gibbering, Santi. You have gone completely off the rails. Click here to get on track

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  41. It's quite shocking to see such hateful, ignorant Anti-Russian bigotry in the 21st century. Exactly the kind of closed-minded paranoia that Ginsberg satirized in poems like "America," and which, in Stanley Kubrick's cinematic masterpiece Dr. Strangelove , led to global thermonuclear war. I had thought American society had progressed beyond such attitudes, but clearly they persist in some quarters.

    I'd like to express my empathy for the emotional trauma that you have been forced to endure, Georgy.

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  42. And on the off chance it wasn't clear, my Putin comment was more a joke about the ways people huff and puff about Putin in the West. I'm not exactly what you'd call a Russian-hostile guy.

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  43. "Gottfried said...

    It's quite shocking to see such hateful, ignorant Anti-Russian bigotry in the 21st century. Exactly the kind of closed-minded paranoia that Ginsberg satirized in poems like "America," and which, in Stanley Kubrick's cinematic masterpiece Dr. Strangelove , led to global thermonuclear war. I had thought American society had progressed beyond such attitudes, but clearly they persist in some quarters.

    I'd like to express my empathy for the emotional trauma that you have been forced to endure, Georgy."


    Yes, it is certainly remarkable how judgmental Santi has become over the results of an intrinsically directionless and cosmically indifferent process like "evolution"; or, as we leading edge type commentators like to refer to it: the value-free process of environmental filtering.

    Why, you might as well call the rain, volcanic eruptions, or meteor strikes, "evil".

    Santi's vicious comments merely prove that he is an imperialistic Slavophobe determined to deprive another culture of its sacred and inviolable ability to determine its own destiny howsoever it chooses.

    Shows you what is really behind the "LOVE INC." mask of these Hippy Bonobo types.

    Lots of H8 there Santi, not so much love.

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  44. Mr. Green,

    "Well, that sums up the modern view in a nutshell."

    That sums up love between two people.

    I asked, "what pressures am I supposed to feel? What's so flimsy about my 40 year marriage that a gay couple will cause me to jump ship?"

    You answered with an evasion. That's all I'm likely to get.

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  45. That sums up love between two people.

    It sums up anyone who wanted anything and gave no shit about anything else at all. Love? Not so much.

    You answered with an evasion.

    He answered directly, and got to the heart of the problem. Who said that a gay triple performing a fake ceremony in Baltimore - this time with a license involved somewhere in the chain! - would cause you to cheat on your wife? Why not tack on 'What's so flimsy about my 40 year marriage that having sex with three men, two women and a duck will cause me to jump ship?'

    Why, it's almost as if you were full of it, eh?

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  46. Um. Gottfried was obviously joking, and if he wasn't joking, he's being callous (to put it politely) toward gays and lesbians, displaying a lack of interest in human rights abuses committed against them in Putin's Russia. 21st century anti-gay bigotry in Russia is clearly the new antisemitism there.

    So what Gottfried said ("It's quite shocking to see such hateful, ignorant Anti-Russian bigotry in the 21st century....") is akin to replying to a documentary investigation into female genital mutilation in Ethiopia as "hateful, ignorant anti-Ethiopian bigotry," or responding to a book on Hitler's systematic attempt to eliminate homosexuals, gypsies, and Jews from Germany as "hateful, ignorant anti-German bigotry."

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  47. Crude:

    You wrote: "And on the off chance it wasn't clear, my Putin comment was more a joke about the ways people huff and puff about Putin in the West. I'm not exactly what you'd call a Russian-hostile guy."

    Great way to put your finger to the wind. Once you discovered that it's acceptable to be in solidarity with Putin in Feserland, you jumped to the Heart Putin side. Enjoy your newfound Putin sympatico friends.

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  48. Crude,

    "Who said that a gay triple performing a fake ceremony in Baltimore - this time with a license involved somewhere in the chain! - would cause you to cheat on your wife?"

    So you finally capitulate. Gay marriage puts no pressure on my heterosexual marriage. Since I'm fairly normal, it follows that it puts no pressure on any marriage. All the rhetoric about a devaluation of marriage and, ultimately, an end of marriage is quaint political posturing. That's how my lack of concern for this end of civilization as we know it becomes, breathlessly, my not giving a "shit about anything else at all."

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  49. Something is happening here but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Santi?

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  50. Gottfried said...

    Something is happening here but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Santi?
    August 26, 2015 at 8:31 AM "


    Whatever that specifically refers to, one thing happening here which Mr. Santi can't seem to face is how the redounding effects of Mr. Santi's own nominalistic voluntarism have risen up and taken a big chunk out of his own simpering twitter-morality ass and left his "LOVE INC" pleading a very stale joke.

    All he really has left to sell is his favorite image of buggering humanoid Bonobos, and his own will to make his personal preferences for them paramount when it comes to arranging associative life in this polity along lines he finds congenial.

    But of course under that scheme, the scheme wherein reason is reduced to a purely instrumental faculty in service of an arbitrary and relativist will, slaughtering homosexuals in the street is on an ontological par with fumigating the house. Talk about unintended consequences of really exploring the limits of "equal". No wonder that Richard Rorty wanted to deal with the metaphysicians by basically abolishing metaphysics, rather than arguing with its practioners and sympathizers.

    As a practical disciple of Rorty, there are just no objective moral grounds left for Santi to maneuver on; and the tautology to which environmental filtering (aka "Evolution") reduces, doesn't even provide him with decent material for exercises in hortatory.

    All he can do is pose, pout, and pound his shoe on the table, claiming that the tide of history will bury rational self interest and the concept of right reason once and for all beneath an onrushing and irresistible tide of polymorphous perverse, boundary-less Bobobo LOVE. It's here. It's now. It's irresistible. Ram Dass says so!

    Yeah, sure; until it and its proponents aren't anymore. Then it isn't.

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  51. Don,

    So you finally capitulate.

    No, Don. Have you tried reading what I said? Better yet - have you tried reading, and comprehending without lying to yourself and others? Why, if you put on your big-boy pants, you may even find the guts to respond to my questions.

    You, on the other hand, have capitulated. You've cast social forces as completely inert- they do not influence, and if they do influence, they do so in a way that is utterly and completely irrelevant, particularly where relationships are concerned. And in the process of making that claim - which I reject - you've surrendered the entire argument being made here: namely that same-sex marriage will bestow positive influences upon the LGBT community. Indeed, any appeals to social influences to explain the subculture's problem with monogamy, can't work.

    So hey, thanks for the as-usual amusing specimen of taking a rhetorical swing and knocking your own teeth out. To think you managed to do so even while studiously avoiding responding to the questions posed to you or answering the criticisms directly! One hell of a feat, that.

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  52. By the by - it looks like a blow for same-sex love and respect has been suffered. But don't worry: LGBT activists are on the scene, expressing their severe disapproval for state-sanctioned homophobia. Also for traditional values, which as we all know such activists are ardent supporters of.

    Truly a tragedy.

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  53. Gottfried:

    After the expressions of Putin love in this thread, you wrote with satisfaction, "Something is happening here but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Santi?"

    Actually, I think it's quite obvious, and accounts for your gloating, opaqueness, and acting as if you and your compatriots here are in possession of a deep and dark secret: the authoritarian, nationalist, and religious traditionalist European right is about to enjoy a widespread revival in response to internationalists and postmodern liberals, and is even experiencing a curious iteration in the United States in the form of Donald Trump's white-based constituency on immigration.

    Right-wingers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains!

    Yes, I get it. You think a Mussolini/Franco/Putin style political moment is on its way in reaction to liberal overreach (as with gay marriage). You believe a right wing movement committed to blood and soil nationalism and traditional religion will save Western Civilization from gays, atheists, and Islam. It's why you take comfort from Feser's caustic blogging on gays and lesbians; it gives you intellectual cover for looking the other way at the violation of the human rights of gay people by the likes of Putin.

    ReplyDelete
  54. "Yes, I get it. You think a Mussolini/Franco/Putin style political moment is on its way in reaction to liberal overreach (as with gay marriage). "


    I doubt that most people in the United Srtates believe that Falangism is the preferred solution to the problem we are experiencing with collectivist left-fascism. Not, when we very recently had a living tradition of constitutionalism.

    Admittedly, that was of course was before the law breaking regime of our current Chief Executive. You know, the guy who has gone on record as being in favor of the fascist notion of "positive liberty"; the guy who set out to fundamentally transform America?

    But as a general matter, one might ask why replace one set of lawless street marching drum beating Bonobos - as you prefer - with another, unless there is a lesser of evils between the two and no other option possible.

    I guess in that case one would have to do an evaluation; and try and calculate who is the more odious when it comes to violating your fundamental life values and ways. For example, one might try and figure out who the worthless sons of bitches were behind the fascist individual shared responsibility mandate.

    Got any ideas on who the anti-liberty fascist trash responsible for that are Mr. Santi?

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  55. Crude,

    I'm determined to be careful with what I say here so I'll leave my response as this:

    You consistently misrepresent what I say. It seems to be your M.O. You ask me to "find the guts" to answer some questions. But I don't recall you asking me serious questions. You seem to think I need to address your POV but I'm not particularly interested in your POV. My entry into this issue was "Marriage Inflation," not your posts. If you truly do want me to answer some questions, I'd be glad to do so. But the impression I get is that you are as disinterested in my opinions as I am in yours. Maybe you could convince me I'm wrong about that since you like to claim I'm so wrong on everything..

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  56. DNW:

    My disagreement with you is over the way you frame gay marriage. It's not parasitic on straight marriage. Marriage is not a zero sum game. No heterosexual's religious marriage is TAXED OR DIMINISHED in any way because two gay people happen to have a civil marriage.

    I actually am sympathetic with your view that the individual should do his or her best not to be a free loader; that he or she should not be parasitic on society as a whole. But gay and lesbian marriage is not like this, so your resentment is unfounded. Nothing is being taken from you, but you would take things of substantial worth away from gay and lesbian people: their legal equality as taxpaying citizens in a democratic republic and their liberty.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Santi Tafarella said...

    DNW:

    My disagreement with you is over the way you frame gay marriage. It's not parasitic on straight marriage. Marriage is not a zero sum game. No heterosexual's religious marriage is TAXED OR DIMINISHED in any way because two gay people happen to have a civil marriage.

    I actually am sympathetic with your view that the individual should do his or her best not to be a free loader; that he or she should not be parasitic on society as a whole. But gay and lesbian marriage is not like this, so your resentment is unfounded. Nothing is being taken from you, but you would take things of substantial worth away from gay and lesbian people: their legal equality as taxpaying citizens in a democratic republic and their liberty.
    August 28, 2015 at 1:48 PM "


    Would you please, for once in your goddamned life, try and respond to something someone has actually stated?

    Is this why you generally refuse to quote, and never seem to quote accurately or in context?


    Did you even read what Flynn said about marriage, and I reiterated? I am confident that he has said that very thing before. I know for a moral certainty that I have also - many times.

    Santi: I truly cannot tell whether you have objectively descended into some kind of less than fully human rhetoric spewing machine, one which operates in the service of a bundle of inchoate urges which it cannot itself understand, and is indifferent to understanding or justifying; or, whether you are merely a broken human who lacks some essential ability to rise above its own fantasy life.

    I never said "gay marriage" is parasitical on straight marriage. I said it is not marriage as traditionally conceived of at all. I said that the arrangement mooted does not rise to the level of significance wherein non-involved parties should be expected to take legal notice of it as an institution worthy of their affirmation, respect, and social cooperation.

    I said that homosexual parodies of marriage are ludicrous, the acts absurd and contemptible, and the demand for affirmation ludicrous, and worthy of the most forceful intellectual and moral rejection.

    But I never said it was parasitical. That would imply a potential for dignity which is itself absurd.

    ReplyDelete
  58. I'm not sure whether I am going to visit the office this weekend or not, so let me try and spell the critical problem out for Santi, for the umpteenth time.

    Santi, as a nominalist, you have no grounds for staking claims on others on the basis of their being objectively like kinds with ascertainably convergent life and associative (moral) interests.

    As an evolutionary ironist, and radical historicist, you have no plausible grounds for peddling the emergent evolutionism, you sometimes seem to float as a substitute for the existence of natural kinds with compatible and reinforcing, rather than antithetical, life and social interests.

    In other words, you don't have an ontological category premiss or intrinsic value leg to stand on.

    You know it. I know it. Your master Rorty knew and admitted it before you.

    Why cannot you be a man - just for the hell of it - and admit the same.

    This ain't the old west. No one is going to shoot you as you lay there in the dust, just because you admit that there is no objectively evident reason not to.

    No harm will result to you. There is at present, too much social inertia and habit, too many unquestioned internalized bourgeois values, and still too many fumes from that empty Christian vase for that to happen just yet.

    You are safe. You can talk. So admit it. Admit you have no objectively discernible intrinsic value, rights, or respectability. Come on. Free yourself to be unequivocally who and whatever you are. Admit it.

    You will be happy you did.

    ReplyDelete
  59. DNW:

    You said that my nominalist views mean that I "have no objectively discernible intrinsic value..."

    But why isn't my own subjectivity sufficient for discovering values? Everyone, religious or irreligious, has to decide whether the game of life is worth the candle. It's Camus' first question of philosophy: suicide. And if you're not going to commit suicide, then you obviously value existence (and key aspects of existence), regardless of the accident of your metaphysics.

    And if you value existence, then there's a good chance, if you're not a psychopath, that you will have natural empathy, as a social animal, for those in the same mortal and outcast (God forsaken) existential situation as you, which translates into human solidarity.

    One can get a lot of ethical mileage out of empathy and solidarity with those in the same boat. Collectively, we are brief inhabitants on an ever-changing and tiny planet adrift in an apparently infinite cosmic sea.

    And after the Holocaust, what else can one HONESTLY do than be subjective in values?

    Metaphysically, one can only see as far as one can see, and the Holocaust has generated a vast shadow over the confident pretensions of religious metaphysics. After the Holocaust, who can confidently say what "God wants" for gay people or what the external and objective ground for values could possibly be? All we have are the children of the survivors of WWII living together in the aftermath of the knowledge of the Holocaust. God ain't talking.

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  60. iwpoe,

    The other alternative is to try and find therapy of some sort for them, which I can't sell politically

    You couldn't sell same-sex marriage politically less than a decade ago. Things change.

    And insofar as 'therapy' goes - that really depends on what the therapy in question is. That's partly a technological question, and partly a question of will. Always will be. There's no guaranteed therapy I'm aware of that completely eradicates the desire to drink from someone either.

    People screw up.

    I would personally support the return of sodomy laws- or at least further measures to restrict the spread of the most public and absurd homosexual behavior -but I know this to be politically impossible at this point, and I do not speak here as a mere political idealist. What is practically possible rules, not simply what is right.

    Ugh, this would give me a headache if I were the kind to get 'em.

    I keep asking this, and you keep not responding. Why in the world do you keep talking about everything in terms of politics, and seemingly in terms of law? I wouldn't support the return of anti-sodomy laws even if the populace was 100% behind them. Even Aquinas said, if I recall correctly, there are some things that are immoral but nevertheless there should be no law against it.

    It's as if the cultural dimension doesn't exist for you whatsoever when it comes to imagining an approach you should have, yet you keep referencing that cultural dimension when it comes down to talking about what laws are possible or not to pass.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Crude, Even Aquinas said, if I recall correctly, there are some things that are immoral but nevertheless there should be no law against it.

    What was his example?

    ReplyDelete
  62. Here's a simple rule of thumb for deciding between Crude and iwpoe on how to respond to gay marriage: When you see people deploy God as an intellectual excuse to harden one's heart to empathy for individuals in concrete human situations, you know that something has gone terribly wrong with religion--and the metaphysical and pragmatic argumentation that accompanies it. Of what value is religious metaphysics--and the pragmatic applications of it--if it brings one to anti-woman, anti-human rights, anti-democratic, anti-gay equality conclusions?

    Whether it's Crude wishing for a return to the days when homosexuality was pathologized by psychiatry as an illness, or iwpoe longing for sodomy laws, but thinking they're vanishingly unlikely ever to return, a pox on both of their heartless houses.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Santi Tafarella said...

    " DNW:

    You said that my nominalist views mean that I "have no objectively discernible intrinsic value..." "
    >

    I actually wrote:

    "Santi, as a nominalist, you have no grounds for staking claims on others on the basis of their being objectively like kinds with ascertainably convergent life and associative (moral) interests."


    " But why isn't my own subjectivity sufficient for discovering values?"

    As per TOF's review of the institutional rationale for marriage, and my parallel comments: the question is not, and never has been about your subjectivity.

    The issue is the social claims which you extrapolate from whatever locus you do operate from; and the consequences to others for their own life chances, plans, programs, and satisfactions, in the noticing, recognizing, accommodating, enabling, or even God forbid self-sacrificially underwriting at the point of a legal gun, your obnoxious tastes.


    "Everyone, religious or irreligious, has to decide whether the game of life is worth the candle. "

    I don't care if you think your life-game is worth the candle.

    I care if your bloody game is worth the cost of sharing my candle.

    It's not about whether life is worth living. It is about whether the terms of associating with you, are worth the cost. Cost/benefit. Price versus satisfaction and advantage derived. You've heard of those terms before, I am sure.


    "It's Camus' first question of philosophy: suicide. And if you're not going to commit suicide, then you obviously value existence (and key aspects of existence), regardless of the accident of your metaphysics."

    Not a very consistent historicist, are you. Years ago, before the observation became quite so a commonplace, I sat in class as our professor lectured on Freud. Knowing something in-depth of social and legal history, I asked if Freud's data-set neurotics, as we might now call them, might not have been extremely abnormal in the first place; not indicative or fit examples for extrapolating a human depth psychology. He said, "Good question, others have asked that too". Nowadays my and others' question seems to have become the interpretive consensus.

    Thus, a whole human psychology, or ideology even, widely accepted for a time, but based on the sampling of an historically atypical bunch of neurasthenics living in the remains of a decayed empire, and obsessed the superficial forms of morality and status.


    " And if you value existence, "

    No, you mean if you appreciate or enjoy it. Values as you have defined them, must proceed from the experience. You have no a priori Archimedean leverage point in your system. Value is just a contingent happenstance in it.

    Try to keep your arguments consistent.


    " ... then there's a good chance, if you're not a psychopath, that you will have natural empathy, as a social animal, ... "

    Yeah or you could be a termite or a bee; have red hair or be lactose intolerant. "These are typical test figures on empathy, your actual mileage may vary according to life conditions and and goals."

    ReplyDelete
  64. Santi also said,

    " ... for those in the same mortal and outcast (God forsaken) existential situation as you, which translates into human solidarity."

    Your conclusion does not follow from the premise, even given typical empathy mileage. Which by the way, is nothing per your system but a physical fact and incapable of generating "values" per se. The upshot? You are merely telling a just-so story.

    " One can get a lot of ethical mileage out of empathy and solidarity with those in the same boat. Collectively, we are brief inhabitants on an ever-changing and tiny planet adrift in an apparently infinite cosmic sea."


    We get violin music with that?


    And after the Holocaust, what else can one HONESTLY do than be subjective in values?


    Two-thirds of the world has never heard of it, and doesn't care. You ever talk to ordinary Mexicans? The ones I've talked to didn't even effen know there was a WWII. All your angst ridden hand-wringing would just get a blank stare.

    You talk as if the Nazi extermination program was a metaphysical principle which proved metaphysics to be impossible.

    By the way, your own principle validates the Nazis insofar as one subjective view has the same ultimate status as another.



    " Metaphysically, one can only see as far as one can see, and the Holocaust has generated a vast shadow over the confident pretensions of religious metaphysics."

    Apparently you imagine the Nazi extermination program generates some destructive internal contradiction for any moderate realist approach to metaphysics, or any teleologically oriented ethical project. But there is no real argument; just declarations. Did you study your philosophy in France?




    " After the Holocaust, who can confidently say what "God wants" for gay people or what the external and objective ground for values could possibly be? All we have are the children of the survivors of WWII living together in the aftermath of the knowledge of the Holocaust. God ain't talking.
    August 28, 2015 at 5:24 PM "

    Is that a joke? "We?" Did you forget there is on your accounting no real "we"?

    And now this last point. Listen closely: Your "subjective" argument, insofar as it is not completely incoherent, relies on a veiled teleology of intrinsic normality, taken as NORMATIVE. That is cheating Santi. You break your own rules when you do this, and tacitly affirm the principle, if not the precise expression, of Feser's methodology.

    You shouldn't do that. You are only fooling yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  65. E. Seigner,

    Prostitution, I believe. Which is pretty funny in light of what's going on in New York - but then again, that's of a very different calibre than what Aquinas talked about. Likewise, 'no law against it' is very different from 'cultural tolerance of it', a point I keep making.

    And again - just because it's damn funny - let's have a look at what LGBT activists are making a stink of over in New York. They treat shutting down of a gay prostitution service as a civil rights issue, on par with that other horrific blow to the rights of LGBT people - shutting down gay bath-houses and bars. You know, making it harder for men in that particular subculture to find the maximal number of sexual partners per week.

    Regardless, I maintain - outlawing sodomy is something I'd oppose, and have opposed, even when the whole of society is far more critical of it. It's a pretty well unenforceable law in a meaningful sense, or at least the enforcement of it would require an empowering of the state to an absurd degree.

    Admittedly, I say this as a guy who laughs at LGBT activists, who equate 'amused apathy or even support of shutting down same-sex escort services' as anti-gay hardening of the heart towards people in concrete human situations. Because in crazy-SJW land, what's of the utmost importance is making sure that, say... bugchasing is a practice that not only continues to the maximal degree possible, but is encouraged and any criticism of it is withheld, even on the extra-legal level.

    Behold, modern definition equality and democracy! Fall to your knees in awe of social justice! Such heights it leads the human mind to! These moral and ethical lions are surely worthy of respect, not derision due to their being hilarious self-parodies!

    Is it any wonder even LGBT people are starting to get sick of these activists?

    ReplyDelete
  66. @Crude

    Interesting. One more clarification though. Is there a distinction between "no law against it" and "legally regulated"? You say there should be no law against sodomy, because it's unenforceable, but doesn't it make sense to legally recognise that such a thing exists and have provisions about it? Not necessarily in criminal law, but for example in medical or sanitary or "public space" regulations.

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  67. E. Seigner,

    You say there should be no law against sodomy, because it's unenforceable, but doesn't it make sense to legally recognise that such a thing exists and have provisions about it?

    It's not just unenforceable. Enforcing it would be absurd and, frankly, fall to modern governments that have shown themselves almost universally untrustworthy. I mean, outside of 'These people are having anal in public at the park', but there's a reasonable catch-all law for that kind of thing.

    Not necessarily in criminal law, but for example in medical or sanitary or "public space" regulations.

    What, in terms of 'We're going to refuse blood donations from any male who engaged in anal sex in the past five years because the odds are now through the roof that this batch is tainted'? Sure, that I have no problem with, but that has nothing to do with legislation as I see it.

    Am I answering your question, or am I missing something?

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  68. Crude, Am I answering your question, or am I missing something?

    You answered the question, thanks.

    You see, in civil law countries (i.e. all continental Europe) public order in parks, blood donorship and such are pretty solidly matters of law. In civil law countries, legislators don't hesitate about "unenforceable". Rather, since the principle of the law is that "Whatever is not forbidden is permissible," so they think whether such-and-such should be permissible. If not, there will be a law about it.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I really shouldn't, but I will anyway:

    Santi,

    Simply, you're a continental bullshitter, and that's not going to impress the likes of the analytical Thomists or classically-influenced realists who congregate here. Like many continentals, you're enamored with and accentuate flowery prose and rhetoric, mistaking it for actual coherence and argumentative rigor.

    For another example of similar sloppiness, you're regurgitation of how the Holocaust has disproved the "old metaphysics" is so very Adorno of you -- apparently, you're not just partial to French existentialists like Camus but favor the Critical Theorist Marxist Germans as well. Anyway, I'll partake and ingest the same bullshit for the sake of argument.

    Apart from being a non-sequitur as DNW pointed out, what is it about the Holocaust that makes it the emphatic nail in the coffin for the objective realists who subscribe to "affirmability of Being"? I mean, there are a plethora of cases from history to choose from: Bubonic Plague, the Mongol destruction of Baghdad in 1258, the colonialist slave trade perpetrated against Africans for centuries, the first World War; there are even more recent events that occurred in Adorno's lifetime that he ideologically was sympathetic to but conveniently neglected to mention, e.g., the estimated 10 million dead of China's Cultural Revolution is more than the 6 million of Himmler's "Final Solution," which also was not the only genocide or extremely violent act of World War II. What makes the Holocaust so damn special that it unequivocally puts the kibosh on God and everything that follows for both you and Adorno, as cashed out in your nominalist and historicist currency?

    Charitably, evil may very well rule out God's existence, but the practitioners of the "old metaphysics" have been aware of this since Epicurus and have dealt with it accordingly. It's not a novel, revolutionary argument. You probably mean doxastically, as in can no longer be believed. But now you're conflating the epistemic and or doxastic with the ontic. Thus again, you're demagoguery falls to pieces when prodded just a little.

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  70. I mean, there are a plethora of cases from history to choose from: Bubonic Plague, the Mongol destruction of Baghdad in 1258...

    Or the 50 million babies murdered since Roe, but he never seems to bring that up.

    For another example of similar sloppiness, you're [sic] regurgitation of how the Holocaust has disproved the "old metaphysics"...

    He's made similar comments on this blog. That kind of vapid remark is an automatic disqualification from serious discussion. It is foolish in the extreme to pay him the slightest heed. His posts are nothing but electronic diarrhea. He feeds on attention. As others have noted, the best thing to do is ignore him. Arguing with a fool brings one down to h/er level.

    ReplyDelete
  71. "moduspownens said...

    I really shouldn't, but I will anyway:

    Santi, ..."

    Classic words.


    Yeah, it can be tough to resist

    ReplyDelete
  72. DNW:

    You wrote: "The issue is the social claims which you extrapolate from whatever locus you do operate from..."

    Two things here. First, whatever metaphysical marble one starts with at the top of the pachinko machine (God, no God, etc.), it doesn't tell you what necessarily follows from it. A monotheist might be committed to absolute nonviolence "based" on her faith; another monotheist might fly planes into the World Trade Center buildings. One atheist might be a libertarian (Ayn Rand), another a communist (Lenin).

    It's the butterfly effect. There's no telling which way any particular person will interpret and pachinko out the consequences of his or her metaphysical position; which way the ball will bounce in real time from the (supposed) foundational starting point.

    Truth be told, historical and psychological contingencies--often untraceable, often unnoticed or treated as marginal factors--are the shadow foundations behind most (all?) human behavior, not metaphysical starting points.

    Second, you simply assume without evidence or argument that there is a metaphysical grounding position that can tell you, at any given moment, when to be empathetic or politically engaged and when to withdraw and focus on your aesthetic or private projects (playing guitar, money making, etc.). I say, with Rorty, that the public and private cannot be held in a single vision. There's simply no metaphysical recipe book for the "right way" to navigate evolution and history. ("Mr. Galapagos turtle, based on your essential nature as a turtle, your next move--your next evolutionary gambit--should be to make a sharp left at the next bush, and not pause to eat berries....")

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  73. One reason the "Holocaust is so damn special" (to use Moduspownens grotesque phrase): scholarly reflection and historical documentation. Due to its extensive documentation, the Holocaust uniquely focuses the mind because it can be thought about with precision from many, many angles. One can read first-hand reports; one can visit the camps; one can discuss photographs, one can read diaries, etc.

    A great deal surrounding this particular historical incident has been systematically preserved--and it happened in the heart of Christian Europe.

    Let me say that again. The Holocaust happened in Christian Europe. Christian Europe. The near-annihilation of the people belonging to the first great monotheistic tradition happened on the very continent harboring the second great monotheistic tradition. THESE TWO MONOTHEISTIC TRADITIONS AFFIRM THAT GOD ACTS IN HISTORY. Just about every single person who escorted Jews to the gas chambers or shot them into pits had been baptized at one time or another into a Christian confessional congregation (Protestant or Catholic).

    And Islam is not off the hook here either. The premises of all three of the great historical monotheisms (Islamic countries in WWII tended to openly ally themselves with Hitler, and today are notoriously larded with antisemites) are brought into legitimate doubt by the Holocaust. And for Christianity and Islam, the Holocaust strikes at the very heart of even their institutional legitimacy.

    But now, 70 years after the Holocaust, Christians and Muslims largely give the Holocaust a big yawn. They've moved on to other issues. It's had almost no impact on their theologies. It's business as usual. Attention has shifted to--gay marriage! Seriously.

    So much cognitive dissonance. How does one even pray, ask God for anything, or pretend to know the first thing about what God wants, after the Holocaust?

    Focusing on Chinese famine under Mao simply doesn't bring the claims and dilemmas of traditional monotheism into as sharp a focus as the Holocaust does.

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  74. "Let me say that again. The Holocaust happened in Christian Europe. Christian Europe."


    So did the Thirty Years war; the Great Lisbon Earthquake; the French Revolution and Vendee extermination; the Kulturkampf; and perhaps more to the point you are trying to ground, The First World War.

    So, with the First World War in mind, why don't you write a nice little article on your blog about how in spite of the manifest piety and religious sincerity of Bismark and the Kaiser, their commitment to the principles of the Man from Galilee, and general German Christian religiosity, somehow, in the most stupendous upending of their theretofore ardently held and lived out Christian convictions, France was invaded, Belgium raped, and the Russian Empire wrecked.

    Then once you do that, we can all have a good laugh at your historical ignorance as you prattle moronically on about "Christian Europe".

    That was the Europe about which Renan (who died 1892) purportedly said, "We are living on the perfume of an empty vase, our children will have to live on the shadow of a shadow. Their children, I fear, will have to live on something less"

    You can look up his secularist view of the Jews for yourself.


    "The near-annihilation of the people belonging to the first great monotheistic tradition happened on the very continent harboring the second great monotheistic tradition. THESE TWO MONOTHEISTIC TRADITIONS AFFIRM THAT GOD ACTS IN HISTORY. Just about every single person who escorted Jews to the gas chambers or shot them into pits had been baptized at one time or another into a Christian confessional congregation (Protestant or Catholic). "


    Stalin had studied in an Orthodox seminary; Marx's grandfathers were reportedly rabbis. So what?

    There were self-described Satanists on the streets of Detroit just the other day performing some public ritual which they stated (sincerely or not) was intended to drive the "Holy Spirit" OUT of them.

    Do you actually know anything about European social and political history?

    Why do you think the French Sacred Heart Basilica was built in the first place? Because Christianity and Christians had been having such a good run in Europe in the years just prior? http://www.sacre-coeur-montmartre....


    Anti-clericalism, socialism, and "Laïcité" in France; Bismark's social and political war on the Catholic Church, socialist revolution and the persecution of clerics in Portugal; the Spanish Civil War.

    And you talk of "Christian Europe"?

    Get serious, and show at least some respect for the actual historical record.

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  75. Moduspownens wrote: "What makes the Holocaust so damn special that it unequivocally puts the kibosh on God and everything that follows for both you and Adorno, as cashed out in your nominalist and historicist currency?"

    Nothing can "unequivocally put the kibosh" on any claim that remains logically possible, however implausible in the light of experience and all appearances.

    The question is, after the Holocaust, why still CONFIDENTLY believe in a good God who acts in history? How can one ever again confidently declare what God wants?

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  76. Santi Tafarella said...

    DNW:

    You wrote:
    "The issue is the social claims which you extrapolate from whatever locus you do operate from..."

    Two things here. First, whatever metaphysical marble one starts with at the top of the pachinko machine (God, no God, etc.), it doesn't tell you what necessarily follows from it. A monotheist might be committed to absolute nonviolence "based" on her faith; another monotheist might fly planes into the World Trade Center buildings. One atheist might be a libertarian (Ayn Rand), another a communist (Lenin).

    It's the butterfly effect. There's no telling which way any particular person will interpret and pachinko out the consequences of his or her metaphysical position; which way the ball will bounce in real time from the (supposed) foundational starting point.


    I've encountered gobbledygook before, but as a brazen diversion into irrelevant incoherence that just about puts all the rest into the shade. No, one premise never implies anything unless it is in the form of an immediate inference through contaposition or conversion or some like move. But so what?

    I did not ask you to make an argument on the basis of one premiss. I asked you to state the basis and grounding of your interpersonal claims.



    " Second, you simply assume without evidence or argument that there is a metaphysical grounding position that can tell you, at any given moment, when to be empathetic or politically engaged and when to withdraw and focus on your aesthetic or private projects (playing guitar, money making, etc.). I say, with Rorty, that the public and private cannot be held in a single vision. There's simply no metaphysical recipe book for the "right way" to navigate evolution and history. ("Mr. Galapagos turtle, based on your essential nature as a turtle, your next move--your next evolutionary gambit--should be to make a sharp left at the next bush, and not pause to eat berries....")
    September 1, 2015 at 9:34 AM "


    I assume no such thing as an a priori metaphysical basis for your goddamned claims. I just asked you to say what they are and to explain why anyone not you, or interested in your projects should give a damn; especially if they are stronger or more life competent than you are, and more interested in experiencing their own freedom than listening to your neurotic whining about the details of your life.

    However, you do in fact assume what is in effect, or is rhetorically passed off as a metaphysical position. It is cloaked in the form of a bizarre rhetorical commitment to an absurd solidarity which follows from nothing but your own peculiar neediness and preferences for a system of offloading life costs onto others: all passed off as subliminally axiomatic. You keep implying, an a priori "we" context without justifying it.

    But on your own nominalist schema, there IS NO COMMON HUMANITY PREDICATE for you to effen leverage off of, or even refer to. All you and your sagging faced friend have is the rhetoric of guile.

    You cannot even claim objectively shared interests as a starting point.

    Isn't it time for you to admit it? That sack of shit Rorty did. Can you justify doing less?

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  77. Is Santi indicting God as unbelievable on the basis of a comparison with a standard of historical good which He must match; or merely as unbelievable of the basis of technical contradictions between what we are entitled to expect if Christianity in the world matched its own metaphysical account of reality?

    As I consider this, it occurs to me at this rather late date that not only does Santi know very little in the way of sociopolitical detail about what he is categorizing as "Christian Europe" in the period he is referencing, he apparently knows just as little about Talmudic and secular Judaism during this period. He is giving Christians and Jews as groups way too much credit during this time, in an effort to show that they have been let down.

    In fact he does not seem to know much about "Christianity per se" either; conflating it seems, the concept of a triumphalist Christian eschatology with the idea of local Providence, mixing in a little evolution, and coming up with the notion that not only do humans live out their lives and faith in time, but that Christian history conceived of as a kind of divinely guided evolutionary emergence of the kingdom on earth, is a valid one.

    If that is orthodox Christianity, it is news to me.

    Nonetheless, Santi's radically and historically contingent sensibilities are clearly offended.

    And on this relativistic note then, he indicts a supposedly transcendent God for not acting as Santi - in what is per his own stipulation a radically historically contingent and limited manner - would have Him do, if Santi were to judge Him as "good".

    Now this is not just peculiar, it's nuts.

    Santi cannot even bring himself to affirm an objective good; a fact which then moots any indictment of God, and relegates such an indictment to the expression of a subjective preference or perspective. By what standard does Santi judge the Christian God as having failed to be "Good"? Does Santi claim to objectively know what is ultimately "good"? No, of course not. Santi doesn't even admit such a concept as sound.

    So the most Santi can actually do in the inter-subjective or interpersonal realm, is to make political noises charging Christian believers with a conceptual inconsistency or incoherence.

    But in order to do this persuasively he has to actually demonstrate an inconsistency of principles, not just charge that there is one. He has to do this before people whose prime authority was tortured to death; whose first members were routinely persecuted and killed; whose eventual first triumphs in civilization were repeatedly overrun and destroyed by pagan, Christ-hostile barbarians.

    In other words he has to establish that he knows what he is talking about in the realm of facts and doctrine.

    But, it is clear that Santi has neither a conceptually valid understanding of historic Christian doctrine, nor any real grasp of the actual historical conditions obtaining among the populations he is describing as "Christian".

    Santi is ultimately demanding that people who have a different and more rigorous concept of what is involved in being a Christian or Jew who is "entitled" to providential assistance, be as disenchanted as Santi is with the failure of God to do what Santi in his ignorance of doctrine and real social history imagines a Christian God should do, if reality were as Santi imagines it, and if He were to do what Santi as arbitrator would have Him do.

    [I just went through and capitalized the pronouns to keep the references more or less straight]

    One wonders what he really expects. If he were to challenge even the most marginally educated Protestant Dispensationalist with: "Holocaust!?"; the dispensationalist would shoot right back with: "Israel!"

    This would not make either right. But it would show that there are no shortage of plausible historically framed retorts to "Holocaust!"

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  78. I know this is a late post:

    A problem with people arguing that gay couples can adopt children in order to suppress the evil of orphans is that the decline of marriage has expanded the problem in the first place, a problem that only really exists in the first place because people avoid the virtues of marriage.

    Since gay "marriage" will only weaken marriage further, more orphans will exist as a result. Gay "marriage," if it can even be said to help orphans, will in the long one make the problem worse.

    Christi pax.

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  79. A happy man marries the girl he loves. A happier man loves the girl he marrie

    Christian Marriage

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