Friday, April 3, 2015

The two faces of tolerance


What is proclaimed and practiced as tolerance today, is in many of its most effective manifestations serving the cause of oppression.

Herbert Marcuse

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.

H. L. Mencken

Given current events in Indiana, I suppose it is time once again to recall a post first run on the old Right Reason blog in March of 2007, and reprinted on this blog in December of 2009.  Here are the relevant passages, followed by some commentary:

To the charge that liberals are (or, given their principles, should be) in favor of X [where X = legalizing abortion, liberalizing obscenity laws, banning smoking on private property, legalizing “same-sex marriage,” outlawing the public advocacy of traditional sexual morality, etc. etc.], the standard liberal response goes through about five stages (with, it seems, roughly 5-10 years passing between each stage, though sometimes the transition is much quicker than that).  Here they are:

Stage 1: “Oh please. Only a far-right-wing nutjob would make such a paranoid and ridiculous accusation - I suppose next you’ll accuse us of wanting to poison your precious bodily fluids!”

Stage 2: “Well, I wouldn’t go as far as X. All the same, it’s good to be open-minded about these things. I mean, people used to think ending slavery was a crazy idea too…”

Stage 3: “Hey, the Europeans have had X for years and the sky hasn’t fallen. But no, I admit that this backward country probably isn’t ready for X yet.”

Stage 4: “Of course I’m in favor of X - it’s in the Constitution! Only a far-right-wing nutjob could possibly oppose it.”

Stage 5: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law…”


Fortunately, though, we can rely on conservatives to hold the line, and indeed to turn back liberal advances. Right?

Well, no, of course not. (You can stop rolling your eyes, I was being facetious.) For conservatives - or maybe I should say “conservatives” (since there’s very little that they ever actually manage to conserve, unless money is somehow involved) - seem to go through five stages of their own. Here they are:

Stage 1: “Mark my words: if the extreme left had its way, they’d foist X upon us! These nutjobs must be opposed at all costs.”

Stage 2: “Omigosh, now even thoughtful, mainstream liberals favor X! Fortunately, it’s political suicide.”

Stage 3: “X now exists in 45 out of 50 states. Fellow conservatives, we need to learn how to adjust to this grim new reality.”

Stage 4: “X isn’t so bad, really, when you think about it. And you know, sometimes change is good. Consider slavery…”

Stage 5: “Hey, I was always in favor of X! You must have me confused with a [paleocon, theocon, Bible thumper, etc.]. But everyone knows that mainstream conservatism has nothing to do with those nutjobs…”

End quote.  Now, where X = curtailing the free exercise of religion, at the time I first wrote those words I estimated that liberals were at about stage 2.  At this point it seems that many of them are at about stage 4, and a disturbing number of hotheads among them seem willing to push for stage 5 vigilantism.  Conservatives, meanwhile, seem mostly to be at about stage 3 of their own progression, and I suspect that not a few are at least flirting with Stage 4.

And so here is where we find ourselves in the land of the free and the home of the brave in April of 2015:

Prominent conservative politicians and churchmen have all essentially caved in on the substance of the dispute over “same-sex marriage.”  None of them will publicly express the slightest moral disapproval of homosexual behavior, and few even bother anymore with social scientific arguments supporting the benefits of children being raised by both a mother and a father.  Indeed, all of them are eager to express their deep respect for their fellow citizens who happen to be homosexual, vigorously to condemn “homophobia” and discrimination, etc.  Some of them are even happy to affirm “same-sex marriage.”  All they ask is that religious believers who on moral grounds disapprove of “same-sex marriage” not be forced to cooperate formally or materially with it.  The circumstances where this might occur are, of course, very rare.  No one is proposing that business owners might refuse to serve a customer simply because he or she happens to be homosexual.  What is in view are merely cases where a business owner who objects to “same-sex marriage” would be forced to participate in it, say by providing a wedding cake or wedding invitations.  Nor would his refusal to participate inconvenience anyone, since there are plenty of business owners who have no qualms about “same-sex marriage.”

In short, what conservatives are proposing is not only extremely modest, but is being defended in the name of their opponents’ own principles, the most liberal of principles, viz. the Jeffersonian principle that it is tyrannical to force someone to act against his conscience, and the Rawlsian principle that a pluralistic society should strive as far as possible to respect and keep a just peace between citizens committed to radically different moral, philosophical and religious views. 

And for taking this paradigmatically liberal position, they are widely and shrilly denounced by liberals as… “bigots,” “haters,” “intolerant,” comparable to the Ku Klux Klan and the upholders of Jim Crow.

Meanwhile, some liberal business owners fire employees who take this conservative position, while others refuse to do business in a state that adopts it.  Other liberals routinely refuse even to discuss the merits of the conservative position but merely hurl insults and try to shout down and intimidate anyone who dares to disagree with them.  And when a particular business owner affirms that customers who happen to be homosexual are welcome in her restaurant, but also says that she would not agree to cater a hypothetical “same-sex wedding,” she finds herself suddenly subjected to a nationwide Two Minutes Hate, with an online mob actively seeking to destroy her livelihood and reputation -- some of them even proposing to burn down the restaurant or kill its owners.  Even some mainstream liberals, while not condoning such violence, suggest that the restaurant owner had invited this abuse.

And liberals have winked at or even embraced the ethos and tactics of the lynch mob in the name of… tolerance, freedom, and pluralism, of love and compassion and opposition to bigotry.

How have we descended into such Orwellian insanity? 

It’s all about sexual equality

Part of it has to do with the fact that what is at issue here concerns sex.  And make no mistake, it is sex in general, rather than homosexuality in particular, that is ultimately at issue.  Consider that current liberal proposals to curb freedom of conscience where disapproval of “same-sex marriage” is concerned are of a piece with recent liberal proposals to curb freedom of conscience where contraception and abortifacient drugs are concerned.  Consider also that only a small percentage of people, including a small percentage of liberals, have a homosexual orientation.  But perhaps a majority of people in contemporary Western society, and certainly the overwhelming majority of liberals, have bought into the sexual revolution.  In particular, they have bought into the idea that where sex is concerned, the only moral consideration, and certainly the only consideration that should have any influence on public policy, is consent.  There can in their view be no moral objection, and perhaps no reasonable objection of any other sort, to sexual arrangements to which all parties have consented.  There is in their view a presumption in favor of license, and thus a presumption against anyone who would object to license.  The conclusion that there can be no reasonable objection to “same-sex marriage” follows naturally.  It is merely one consequence among others of a generally libertine attitude about sex.

Now, here’s the thing about sex.  The unique intensity of sexual pleasure, the central role that success in romantic and sexual relationships plays in our sense of fulfillment and self-worth,    and the unpleasant feeling of shame that accompanies indulgence in sexual actions we suspect of being in some way wrong, makes it very difficult for people to think clearly or dispassionately about sex.  We have a very strong bias in favor of trying to find ways of rationalizing indulgence, and a very strong bias against regarding some sexual behavior toward which we are attracted as wrong or shameful.  These biases are only increased by sexual license.  The more deeply you buy into the sexual revolution and act accordingly, the more reluctant you are going to be to want to listen to any criticism of it. 

This is why Aquinas regards what he calls “blindness of mind,” “self-love,” and “hatred of God” as among the “daughters of lust” -- where by “lust” Aquinas means, not sexual desire, but rather sexual indulgence that is in some way or other disordered.  Sexual immorality fosters “blindness of mind” in the sense that the one indulging in it tends to have greater difficulty than he otherwise would in thinking coolly and dispassionately about matters of sex.  He tends toward “self-love” in that he is strongly inclined to make his own subjective feelings and desires the measure by which to judge any proposed standards of morality, rather than letting objective moral standards be the measure by which to judge his feelings and desires.  He tends toward “hatred of God” insofar as the very idea that there is an objective moral law or lawgiver who might condemn his indulgence becomes abhorrent to him.  (I recently discussed Aquinas’s analysis at length here.)

So, when a sexually libertine liberal activist shrieks “Bigot! Bigot! Bigot!” in your face at the top of his lungs as if he were putting forward a rational argument, or tries to destroy a person’s reputation and strip him of his livelihood in the name of compassion, or threatens to kill him or burn down his business in the name of tolerance, the manifest cognitive dissonance should not be surprising.  It is only to be expected.  Sexual libertinism is destructive of rationality.

It’s all about sexual equality

But it’s not just about sex.  It’s about egalitarianism itself, which, as Plato argued in The Republic, is inherently destructive of moral, legal, and rational standards, and has tyranny as its natural sequel.  The egalitarian regime insists, notionally, on tolerating every opinion and way of life, and refuses either to judge any one of them as morally or rationally superior to any other, or to favor any of them in its laws.  Yet no regime can tolerate what would subvert it.  And the very idea that some views and ways of life are simply objectively superior, rationally and morally, to others, is subversive of egalitarianism.  Hence egalitarian societies tend in practice to be intolerant of views which maintain that there are objective standards by which some views and ways of life might be judged better or worse.  That is to say, an egalitarian regime inevitably tolerates only those views which are egalitarian.  Which means, of course, that it tolerates only itself.

Thus, in Plato’s own day, do we have the spectacle of Athens, which was democratic, pluralist, and egalitarian -- and killed Socrates, because it suspected that he was none of the above.  Thus do we have the French Revolution, which murdered thousands in the name of liberty, equality, and fraternity.  Thus do we have Stalinist Russia and Maoist China, each of which slaughtered tens of millions in the name of equality.  If egalitarians have, historically, been able to convince themselves of the justifiability of all that, then burning down a pizzeria is a cinch. 

Nor is it by any means only these more extreme forms of egalitarianism that practice intolerance in the name of tolerance.  You will find the same tendency in John Locke, that most moderate of early modern liberals.  Locke famously argued for religious toleration -- except for Catholics, for atheists, or for anyone who rejects the doctrine of religious toleration.  The reason was that Locke regarded the views of all such people as subversive of a tolerant, liberal society -- Catholics because their primary loyalty was to the pope rather than to the liberal state, atheists because they denied the theological foundations that the Protestant Locke thought essential to morality and politics, and deniers of religious liberty for the obvious reason that they rejected the whole idea of the tolerant liberal state.  Locke went so far in the direction of insisting that only those religions which accepted his doctrine of toleration ought to be tolerated that he held “toleration to be the chief characteristical mark of the true church.”  In other words, a real religion is one which embraces Lockeanism.  Hence the Lockean liberal regime tolerates only those views which accept the basic principles of Lockean liberalism.  Which ultimately means, of course, that it too tolerates only itself.  (See chapter 5 of my book Locke for further discussion of Locke’s doctrine on toleration.)

Things are in no way different with the contemporary liberalism of John Rawls.  Rawls famously holds that a liberal society is one which is neutral between, and can be accepted as just on the basis of premises held by, all of the competing “comprehensive doctrines” -- that is to say, the religious, philosophical and moral worldviews -- that exist within a modern pluralistic society.  Or at least, Rawls says, it is neutral between the “reasonable” comprehensive doctrines.  And what makes a doctrine “reasonable,” as it turns out, is a willingness to endorse the principles of Rawls’s brand of liberalism.  Which means that the Rawlsian regime tolerates only those views which endorse its underlying principles.  And thus -- once again -- we have a form of egalitarianism which on analysis really only tolerates itself.  (I’ve discussed the bogusness of Rawlsian neutrality elsewhere, e.g. here, here, and here.)

Now, how do you counter sexual libertinism and the totalitarian tendencies of egalitarianism?  Naturally, by vigorously arguing for traditional sexual morality, and working for legal safeguards of the liberty of those who affirm traditional sexual morality to live in accordance with it.  Easier said than done, needless to say.  But there is no alternative, in the short term or, especially, in the long term.  Rusty Reno, at First Things, seems to agree.  He recommends two courses of action to conservative and religious leaders:

The first is obvious. We need to work for laws like the Indiana RFRA to provide some protection, however modest, to our communities from the coming onslaught of “anti-bigotry” laws.

The second is less obvious but perhaps even more important. We need to stand up and speak clearly about the biblical teaching on sex, marriage, and family. It’s the leaders of the Church who should be attacked in public as “homophobic,” not politicians like Mike Pence who are trying to do the right thing.

Yet some political leaders seem more inclined to cave in to the demands of the mob, and some religious leaders more inclined to hide under the covers and hope the problem goes away.  Naturally, this will only embolden the mob.  These political and religious leaders are asking for it, and they are going to get it from the “tolerance” crowd -- good and hard, as Mencken would say.  Unfortunately, they won’t be the only ones to suffer the effects of their cowardice. 

484 comments:

  1. Greg,

    Maybe it's also worth mentioning that there's a good chance the world won't be brimming with contented urban liberals 50 years down the road. I've already mentioned to Santi that there will be a resurgence of traditionalist, illiberal communities, since those are the communities that are capable of sustaining their populations. Though he never responded...

    I actually had a longer, pre-emptive reply to Santi started, but ended up replying as suited the situation when he commented back.

    I wanted to add to it that one theory I like is the theory that certain amounts and types of natural resource wealth, or certain kinds of technology, favour and can even lead to certain kinds of social models. Moreover, I think lower resource societies, with necessarily different technological levels, tend towards conservative ethics. I'm sure it's nothing new to you, but I think there's a reason why when we abstract away the differences in all similar such societies they all have roughly the same conservative ethic.I think you're right. In the long term.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Especially the contradictory parts? This is why I agree with the santi is a troll thesis.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Sorry, the contradictory beliefs of Santi.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Since I took the time to write it, I may as well post what I started anyway:

    “If cultural liberalism were a necessary condition to prosperity, no culturally conservative country would be prosperous or wealthy in the senses so far used.

    Some conservative countries are prosperous and wealthy. Japan, which has always been highly conservative, is also highly prosperous and wealthy. Despite media, there are countries in the Middle East where the average citizen is worth more than most Americans see in their whole lives. So, liberalism is not a necessary condition for a society's prosperity or wealth.

    Similarly, if having sufficient natural resources, like top soil, fresh water, minerals, or energy, for growing food, drinking, building homes and tools, or for fuel are necessary for prosperity or wealth (in the senses so far used), then liberalism is not a sufficient condition for prosperity or wealth (in the senses so far used). Having sufficient natural resources, like top soil, fresh water, minerals, or energy, for growing food, drinking, building homes and tools, or fuel are necessary to prosperity or wealth (in the senses so far used). So, cultural liberalism is not a sufficient condition for prosperity or wealth. Therefore, cultural liberalism is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for a society's prosperity or wealth.”

    ReplyDelete
  5. "Have you noticed how good recent television has become."

    Really? I'm having a tough time digesting this remark. Contemporary TV is largely crude, indulgent, degenerate, disgusting, and not particularly intelligent.

    ReplyDelete
  6. @ Chris

    Contemporary TV is largely crude, indulgent, degenerate, disgusting, and not particularly intelligent.

    Santi's claim that it is better that morality is more sentimental and "story-based" strikes an interesting chord as well. I agree with him that this sort of thinking predominates; the incorrigibility of personal experience (at least where certain minority groups are concerned) is pretty much an axiom for the way many college students think today. But why anyone would think that is a mark of rationality is beyond me; reasoning from particular cases on the basis of your affections is perhaps the basest sort of moral reasoning.

    I am not saying that sentiment should not play any role in moral reasoning. Given a proper moral education, sentiment should be a good defeasible indicator of what is right or wrong in a certain case. But on its own, it provides little solid guidance.

    There's also a problem of inconsistency. What's normative about sentiment? Say society was predominantly callous toward gays and lesbians in the past, as today's society is predominantly callous toward fetuses. I imagine Santi would say that there was some sort of imperative for those attitudes to change, however grounded in sentiment they were. But then the sentiment and the empathy do none of the work.

    Santi amazes me. It seems quite transparent that he is just enamored with contemporary liberalism and will accept just about any explanation that seems to render it inevitable - even if, applying those explanations in the past (or, as it were, to pedophiles) yields undesirable results. But in another sense, Santi is perhaps perfectly consistent: This is how empathetic, sentimental moral reasoning proceeds. You identify what makes you feel good (seeing Oscar's coworkers accept him in The Office, young professionals making $100K a year in technology companies that run like college campuses) and conjure up some explanation for why that's really the way things ought to be.

    ReplyDelete
  7. It's important to bear in mind as Santi fiddles away on his empathy machine, that the cultural liberalism advanced by the Rortian and Santian, is not a libertarian free-market vision emphasizing free association and the pursuit of individual visions.

    Rorty admitted as much in the text Santi cited: "Contingency, irony, and solidarity." (Wherein he mischaracterizes Christianity, by the way).

    Their society is not fundamentally liberal.

    Their ideal is a form of humid fascism, a kind of snuffling, collectivist termite heap nihilism (to steal from Helmut Thielicke in "Nihilism") wherein the thrills of torchlight parades have been replaced by the joys of being awarded a niche in a therapeutic state bureaucracy run by neurotics, dispensing government love.

    Whenever possible, the advances of the free market, capital and science will be claimed as victories creditable to the current tenants - who have for the most part merely nested in the structures created by others.

    But, as long as someone, as Camile Paglia points out, is still manning the walls, the snuffling neurotics may enjoy the illusion that they can actually sustain themselves in the face of nature. And one day if events don't overtake them, and technology advances, it may even become true in the sense that they will float more or less free of many of the constraints we have faced in the past and merely considered part of the human condition.

    At that point, when their need to suck the life out of others in order to sustain themselves has apparently lessened, will these appetite things finally relax their solidarity pimping activities?

    Will real libertarianism then become possible when every "variant" is not only able to live life as it wants, but is in theory able to pay the price by itself, as well?

    The answer is "Probably not". Technological progress has not really lessened the troubles of the boundary-less and morally deconstructed. They still flail and wail. They will still feel the panic that somewhere someone is indifferent to their fate, and is living free of their reach.

    It is this that they cannot stand above all else.

    We are not looking at the development of swifter, healthier, more intelligent men here. We are looking at the development of things that wish to become something else entirely, for the sake of they know not what.

    ReplyDelete
  8. To everyone here:

    You really need to somehow get and read "Contingency, Irony, and solidarity".

    Santi's posts are not much more than a repeated riff on the themes and even passages found in that book.

    The one area in which Santi differs is insofar as he attempts to set up "evolution" (as he imagines it), as a kind of pseudo-god which does things, and has plans and takes chances and is creative et cetera. Whereas Rorty is content to consider chance per se a worthy master, and to leave it at that.

    But then Rorty has given up trying to intellectually convince the metaphysicians, and has moved on to a program of sociopolitical manipulation and storytelling in order to get what it wants.

    Santi seems to think, despite all the vainglory and we will bury you rhetoric, that the metaphysicians still need to be faced, rather than bypassed.

    Perhaps Santi recognizes better than Rorty did that the nihilism blade Rorty honed can be laid just as easily against Rorty's own neck as it can against the notion of objective truth.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I do have a question more at the original post (OP), though. In the OP, Ed argues for why liberalism leads to tyranny. Why, in this regard, does traditional conservatism fare better?

    ReplyDelete
  10. " John West said...

    I do have a question more at the original post (OP), though. In the OP, Ed argues for why liberalism leads to tyranny. Why, in this regard, does traditional conservatism fare better?

    April 20, 2015 at 10:09 AM"



    "Whose liberalism, and which conservativism?", is the question which occurs to you and to everyone else

    Depending on the conservative theory, it may not do much. Though one would imagine that if conservatism is more properly seen as a disposition than an ideology (Oakeshott), then, an aversion to trading away the liberties held in hand in order to grasp for promises of pleasures delivered by the state in the future, may well provide its own answer to your question.

    There is in the very definition of the outlook, a kind of inherent resistance to ceding autonomy and enabling overreaching.

    Modern liberalism of course, and perhaps driven by the inherent tastes of the people now identifying with it as a political movement, morphed from the classical liberalism program of liberty conceived of as the personal ability to exercise powers and rights free of direction and interference, into a political theory of freedom redefined as enjoyment, rather than free striving. "Freedom" becomes social inclusion and government assisted emotional fulfillment.

    Therefore, in order to achieve the aim of redistributing pleasures and life satisfactions by some scheme other than marketplace merit and desert, the modern liberal state cannot merely recognize boundaries which it must not trespass as per the classical liberal order, but must instead reorder, and to some extent direct, the productive lives of everyone within the state so as to ensure the ideologically correct distribution of those life satisfactions which have come to define the "enjoyment of liberty" for the modern liberal.

    In the case of the Rortian, this has come to include an open-ended demand that those inhabiting a liberal controlled and politically progressive polity continually adjust their behaviors and lives to ever more rigorous standards of self-sacrificial interest in "the details of the lives of others" and a commitment to alleviating their "pain and humiliation" - however that is supposedly defined.

    In any event, it is clear that like the typical Marxist, the Rortian defines the fundamental problem of the human condition as one of "alienation."

    Maybe it is due to some genetic thing that predisposes some samples of humankind to think in this way.

    Bunch of effen human termites if you ask me.

    But you didn't of course.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Greg,

    I've already mentioned to Santi that there will be a resurgence of traditionalist, illiberal communities, since those are the communities that are capable of sustaining their populations. Though he never responded...

    ... Also, obviously, as a matter of basic arithmetic, communities that have no babies tend to dwindle and communities that favor reproductive ends tend to multiply. So, since people tend to pick up the attitudes of their families and communities, liberal communities are less likely to last than conservative communities. That's a good point.

    Somewhat foreboding as it concerns overpopulation, but hard to escape.

    ReplyDelete
  12. DNW,

    Depending on the conservative theory, it may not do much. Though one would imagine that if conservatism is more properly seen as a disposition than an ideology (Oakeshott), then, an aversion to trading away the liberties held in hand in order to grasp for promises of pleasures delivered by the state in the future, may well provide its own answer to your question.

    Oakeshott's name keeps coming up. I must read Oakeshott.

    ReplyDelete
  13. " Blogger John West said...

    DNW,

    Depending on the conservative theory, it may not do much. Though one would imagine that if conservatism is more properly seen as a disposition than an ideology (Oakeshott), then, an aversion to trading away the liberties held in hand in order to grasp for promises of pleasures delivered by the state in the future, may well provide its own answer to your question.

    Oakeshott's name keeps coming up. I must read Oakeshott.

    April 20, 2015 at 12:01 PM"



    I recall the essay below from a philosophy anthology used in class, back when. It was nearing thirty years old at that time. It hardly seemed like philosophy at all when I first read it.

    But in its seeming ordinariness there is an implicit point being made regarding the assumptions behind state planning and the rationalization of human life without respect for limits.

    Modern liberalism is an ideology, totalizing by its very nature.

    Conservativism is probably not so much an ideology as an attitude which involves the recognition of the value of present goods, and possibly a temperament which is averse to being herded irreversibly into vague brave new worlds for the sake of solidarity or novelty.


    https://www.google.com/url?q=http://faculty.rcc.edu/sellick/On%2520Being%2520Conservative.pdf&sa=U&ei=7Vs1Vaf4D5KvogS55YC4Dw&ved=0CBQQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNHkpFa0raGQpXG-K9gUBM9J_Pzr5Q

    ReplyDelete
  14. The problem with classical liberalism, or one of many, is it was inherently atomistic, except when watered by the nourishing springs of traditional conservatism (such as in the case of Tocqueville). This meant it weakened the intermediate associations, like family and local community, that are man's best protection against the centralised state. The individual alone is weak. He requires social associations materially and even psychologically. He is always seeking community, as Robert Nisbet might have put it. And get rid of traditional society and many will look to all that is left for community - the state.

    John West,

    Traditional conservatism is quite different to liberalism of all kinds. In general, the traditional conservative does not believe in liberty as an abstract thing. He believes in ordered liberty, which is the outcome of a stable, properly ordered, traditional society. And he believes in liberties - the many traditional rights and duties that man has in a particular society - rather than abstract liberty. Liberty is often a good thing, but it is not the end or sole standard of politics.

    I had to study Oakeshott briefly recently. He is an interesting figure. I was, though, a little put off by his strong idealism and by the sceptical nature of his political thought. He certainly has a conservative streak but I don't know if he is really a conservative.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Greg:

    You've predicted that, say, fifty years hence, "there will be a resurgence of traditionalist, illiberal communities, since those are the communities that are capable of sustaining their populations."

    Maybe, but think ecology here. The 21st century city's ecosystem--the concrete jungle--is very different from the medieval rural ecosystem out of which Thomism etc. emerged. So if you're right, traditionalist and nostalgia-loving Catholics, Muslims, and Protestants will be adapted to city life in ways akin to Hasidic Jews in New York.

    And I wonder what actual demographers would say about this. They see human population leveling off at around nine billion later in this century, presumably because of several factors: (1) people will, on average, score on IQ tests a full standard deviation or two higher than they do today (the Flynn effect suggesting higher levels of education globally, and lower birth rates); (2) richer and more urbanized people are more feminist, and have fewer children (and 90% of all humans on the planet will live in cities by century's end); (3) the global economy will be 2-3 times larger than it is today; and (4) women globally will be working in large numbers in the white collar workplace.

    I've got to believe that people scoring one or two standard deviations higher on IQ tests than people today, in addition to having fewer children, will also tend to be more skeptical of religion, but it's also true that religious and authoritarian temperaments have a strong genetic component behind them, so it might be a wash.

    ReplyDelete
  16. My guess is that if you want to see the future of traditionalism, don't look at contemporary impoverished regions of the world where religion and large families currently thrive, but look at New York (Catholic churches closing all around the state; Hasidic Jews carving out small communities in the city right alongside gay and lesbian community clusters, etc.).

    This isn't to say that traditionalism and fundamentalism won't be forces in the world--but they will just constitute another lifestyle choice. What was once imagined as an ideal or norm for most members of civilization to strive toward is actually just another contingency that few are likely to wholly adopt.

    If that makes democratic societies bad things in the eyes of traditionalists, at least the goods of freedom and empathy for diverse others are retained.

    If you can't coerce people, not many are going to submit their lives to authoritarian traditionalism. That's just a reality.

    So over the next century I think it's fair to say that roughly a third of births globally will be into self-described Muslim homes, roughly half into Catholic and Protestant homes, and the remaining 20% will be "other." How fundamentalist or traditionalist these homes will be is an open question. Traditionalism has a role, certainly, in sustaining population, but the lures of the city and assimilation will always be a problem for the offspring produced in these traditionalist families.

    If, for example, you're a Mormon with six kids in 2065, that suggests that if 2% of the human population is gay, you'll have a greater than 10% chance that one of your children will be gay. That child is likely to want to be, at some point in his or her life, in a gay marriage.

    Put another way, traditionalist heterosexuals are more likely than less prolific heterosexuals to need to work through the issues surrounding what to do about having a gay child. Maybe that's one of the jokes that God plays on the too-tightly wound.

    ReplyDelete
  17. John West:

    You wrote: “If cultural liberalism were a necessary condition to prosperity, no culturally conservative country would be prosperous or wealthy in the senses so far used.... [T]here are countries in the Middle East where the average citizen is worth more than most Americans see in their whole lives. So, liberalism is not a necessary condition for a society's prosperity or wealth."

    Isn't it just a wee bit possible that culturally conservative countries are parasitic on the global liberal order? (Muslim countries generate only the tiniest fraction of Nobel laureates, for instance.)

    In other words, liberals may need conservatives to make babies that feed into the cities, but conservatives also need liberal urban hubs to produce wealth via "mind wells" (by far the greatest resource on the planet). That a lot of wealth, culture, science, and technological innovation from liberal urban hubs spills over into conservative and traditionalist societies is a sign that these societies actually can't do well in the 21st century without embracing (at a distance) the Enlightenment.

    Out of sight, out of mind is not the same thing as having no debt to the Enlightenment.

    One company--Apple--led by a gay guy in liberal California--generates more economic wealth than all of traditionalist, anti-gay Russian society combined. But I'm also betting that there are a few bright children in Russia right now, born into traditionalist homes, who will someday make their way to Silicon Valley and work as engineers for Apple.

    Anti-Enlightenment traditionalist vs. Enlightenment liberal is not a zero-sum game. To fly optimally, maybe you need two wings.

    Obviously, they both have their niches in the 21st century ecosystem.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Wow. This is almost as good as watching old Abbott and Costello reruns. LOL!

    One company--Apple--led by a gay guy in liberal California--generates more economic wealth than all of traditionalist, anti-gay Russian society combined.

    Either:

    1. Santi is claiming that Steve Jobs was gay; or,

    2. He's expressing -- via deed rather than words -- his wholehearted agreement with DNW. **

    - - - - -

    ** "Whenever possible, the advances of the free market, capital and science will be claimed as victories creditable to the current tenants - who have for the most part merely nested in the structures created by others."

    ReplyDelete
  19. Greg:

    You wrote: "I am not saying that sentiment should not play any role in moral reasoning. Given a proper moral education, sentiment should be a good defeasible indicator of what is right or wrong in a certain case. But on its own, it provides little solid guidance."

    Translation: traditionalists can appeal to disgust at gay and lesbian acts, but liberals shouldn't appeal to empathy for the biologically inherited siren call of gay and lesbian desire and pair-bonding.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Santi,

    Isn't it just a wee bit possible that culturally conservative countries are parasitic on the global liberal order? (Muslim countries generate only the tiniest fraction of Nobel laureates, for instance.)

    I doubt it. Those Middle Eastern countries are wealthy because they have rivers of oil underneath them and we keep buying it, because we need it to power modern society. A country of any political stripe would need the oil to fuel their society. So, far from these Middle Eastern countries being parasitic, the liberality of purchasing countries seems irrelevant to their wealth.

    The majority of the global growth in the last ten years has come from another conservative country: China. They're the ones building all your stuff. So almost all your liberal society's energy comes from other places, all its stuff is built in other places – all the stuff needed to prop it up comes from other places – and you imply these other, conservative countries are the parasites? I put to you that anyone who thinks so has neo-colonialism backwards.

    Then there's Japan, which has only really started adopting any culturally liberal ideas since around after their financial crisis in 1988 and then slowly; their economy has at best been stagnant since then. They – and especially their corporate culture – puts to shame the idea that liberalism is needed for innovation.

    Even Singapore does a lot of innovation.

    Glenn quoting DNW: "Whenever possible, the advances of the free market, capital and science will be claimed as victories creditable to the current tenants - who have for the most part merely nested in the structures created by others."

    DNW makes a good point too. If you look at the economic growth in the real economy (removing inflation and the like), most of it happened before culturally liberal ideas took off in '68. So, nevermind causation, it's not even clear there's much correlation between culturally liberal ideas and prosperity or wealth.

    In any case, none of the relevant (the relevant ones) mentioned countries are parasitic on liberal countries, and the argument's second premiss with the proviso that they're "prosperous and wealthy" apart from parasitism on liberalism goes through.


    [1] It's also not terribly clear the thousandth knock-off of the IPhone adds real value to the economy, or is even terribly innovative, anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  21. If Santi keeps referring to the "siren call" of biology, sooner or later someone is bound to point out that following a "siren call" ordinarily leads to shipwreck.

    ReplyDelete
  22. edit: "to the [Middle Eastern countries'] wealth."^

    Out of sight, out of mind is not the same thing as having no debt to the Enlightenment

    This is irrelevant to the conversation: But I quoted this comment to say that I think most Enlightenment authors would be shocked by contemporary cultural liberalism. There is a distinction that needs to be drawn there.

    But neither industrial revolution occurred in the Enlightenment. "The" industrial revolution occurred after the Enlightenment in slightly pre-Victorian and Victorian Britain. Les lumières don't seem to have had much to do with this. In fact, the classic culture-based claim attributes it to Protestantism and the so-called "Protestant work ethic" (I question this, but never mind). Another, earlier industrial revolution before that, occurred in the Middle Ages.

    ReplyDelete


  23. " ... it's also true that religious and authoritarian temperaments have a strong genetic component behind them ... "

    Well, well. How very "progressive". That is to say, left-fascist.

    The true face behind the solidarity pimping, libertine-liberalism swindle and con game, mask.







    ReplyDelete
  24. Anyone here read Gale's Intro to Philosophy of Religion Wadsworth put out? If so does it contain anything interesting? It's no where near as meaty as the two critiques of Analytical Natural Theology but I feel I should look at his other stuff given how much Pruss goes on about him

    (Some might say the above is outright OT trolling - to them I say: 'Evolution- highjacked!! emapthy- revolution-in-morals, Steve-Jobs-culture-hacking to to maximal No-Harm Singularity Zero-Sum Game!!! P.S. Michael Graziano-fox-to successful experment-William Blake!!)

    ReplyDelete
  25. P.S. Thomists ≠ OA = bad-evolutionary-stratagem-zero-sum-game!@!@!@)

    (Perhaps all blog commenting ought to be conducted in this manner from now-on - it'd guarantee about 200 normal responses per a single post of its kind)

    ReplyDelete
  26. Daniel,

    Not that I have any problems with Gale or your question or anything like that. Far from it.

    (Perhaps all blog commenting ought to be conducted in this manner from now-on - it'd guarantee about 200 normal responses per a single post of its kind)

    But so long as these types of posts on the OPs topic, I guess I don't ultimately see the problem. I had a problem with it back on the PSR posts, a topic about which I waited months for a post only to watch others derail three into culture war stuff.

    For some reason, we do seem to react quickly to foils, of any type, but I found Greg's posts informative and I'm not sure he would have made them otherwise. So it's not all bad.

    I recognize my last two or three posts have been dangerously on the outer periphery of the topic, and promise to curb that line of conversation.

    ReplyDelete
  27. I wasn't into the misrepresentation of Scott, though. That wasn't cool.

    ReplyDelete
  28. @John,

    The OT trolling wasn't a reference to your concerns re the conversation about Oakeshott or anything; I was just making the point that it would probably be of more value to go off on just about any philosophical tangent than reply to Santi's technically On-Topic screed.

    As a casual reader I don't mind too much if the combox discussions go off into other topics as long as they are interesting and acutely conducted in good faith (it's worth flicking through some of the old comboxs - Rank Sophist and Dguller had a spate of really interesting debates about Divine Simplicity vis via Active and Passive Potencies). Of course it can be very frustrating if the entire conversation is twisted in that direction though.

    I wasn't into the misrepresentation of Scott, though. That wasn't cool.

    Where was this? On this thread or one of the PSR ones?

    ReplyDelete
  29. Daniel,

    As a casual reader I don't mind too much if the combox discussions go off into other topics as long as they are interesting and acutely conducted in good faith

    Yeah, I don't think it's that big a deal when it doesn't take over the thread. That said, as someone with an interest in a subject like philosophy of mathematics, I'm acutely aware a lot of people just don't find my interests interesting, and try to be respectful accordingly.

    I wasn't into [Santi's] misrepresentation of Scott, though. That wasn't cool.

    I'm pretty sure Santi figured he was simply giving as he good as he was getting, but earlier in this thread.

    and Dguller

    Ah, the legendary DGuller I keep hearing about.

    ReplyDelete
  30. John West:

    You wrote: "If you look at the economic growth in the real economy (removing inflation and the like), most of it happened before culturally liberal ideas took off in '68."

    Culturally liberal ideas took off 350 years prior to 1968.

    I'd vote for sometime between 1620-23 as a nice place to start the Enlightenment. 1620-23 is when Francis Bacon published his utopian fiction, New Atlantis, and his Novum Organum.

    And I wouldn't define a nation as traditional that enthusiastically embraces global capitalism, trade, and the growth of large cities. (One should recall that Goebbels hated Berlin, for instance.) These are liberal ideas disruptive of conservative societies and reactionary nationalist agendas (and that stem from the Enlightenment).

    Traditionally, for example, China's emperors strictly closed off the country from the outside world--most especially--and to their folly--with regard to sea trade. Today, China's boom is along the Pacific coast, and the cities there resemble New York.

    China is also copying the West's contemporary model of the university. The Chinese will likely have universities over the next 30 years that will rival our Ivy League schools. The modern university--with its procedures, its curriculum, and its open and free Baconian scientific communities--is not a conservative innovation. It's inherently dangerous to conservative order.

    Capitalism is a liberal idea; democracy is a liberal idea; ending the careers of executioners and torturers are liberal ideas; equality for women, blacks, and gays is a liberal idea; and the non-Herderian, non-blood and soil, idea of a transnational global community is a liberal idea. (The ultimate circle of human empathy.)

    So when I think of liberalism, I think of such ideas as these: the separation of church and state; war is evil, not glorious; and speech and science should be unfettered.

    At the time these things were first proposed, the Anti-Enlightenment traditions (from blood and soil nationalists to patriarchal and religious traditionalists) regarded them as evil.

    Jefferson was a child of the Enlightenment--and so is Barack Obama. When I think of liberalism, I think of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (see YouTube below). If liberalism brings about something akin to the vision represented in the video, I'd be curious to know in what sense you would regard this as bad (or contrary to the flourishing of traditionalist communities alongside secular ones).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTlrSYbCbHE

    ReplyDelete
  31. Santi,

    Culturally liberal ideas took off 350 years prior to 1968.

    I'd vote for sometime between 1620-23 as a nice place to start the Enlightenment. 1620-23 is when Francis Bacon published his utopian fiction, New Atlantis, and his Novum Organum.


    No, my good man. You must read some social history from those eras. This is poppycock. The vast majority of people before the cultural revolution in the 1960s were conservative, for most of history.

    And I wouldn't define a nation as traditional that enthusiastically embraces global capitalism, trade, and the growth of large cities. (One should recall that Goebbels hated Berlin, for instance.) These are liberal ideas disruptive of conservative societies and reactionary nationalist agendas (and that stem from the Enlightenment).

    It wouldn't follow from nations adopting some politically liberal positions that they or their people are culturally liberal. It's absurd to (for example) call Middle Eastern, Muslim countries culturally liberal.

    But also, for example, Victorian Britain embraced capitalism, trade, and the growth of large cities. No one would accuse them of cultural liberalism or of being liberal (indeed, many Victorians saw their church as the beating heart of Britain).

    Also, insofar as what we mean when we talk about capitalism is such things virtual money for stock of merchandise, funds, sums of money, or money carrying interest, various Italian provinces in the commercial revolution during the Middle Ages were doing this, long predating anything like the Enlightenment.[1]

    China is also copying the West's contemporary model of the university. The Chinese will likely have universities over the next 30 years that will rival our Ivy League schools. The modern university--with its procedures, its curriculum, and its open and free Baconian scientific communities--is not a conservative innovation. It's inherently dangerous to conservative order.

    Practically all the universities in Britain, especially until recently, were built by churches. The original universities were mainly built and developed by the Church. In fact, the term liberal arts education is very misleading, since its a term that refers to the old  trivium (grammar, logic, rhetoric) and quadrivium (arithmetic, geometry, music, astronomy) and represents the standard education for anyone receiving education, throughout the Middle Ages and for most of history, long before the Enlightenment.

    I'd be curious to know in what sense you would regard this as bad (or contrary to the flourishing of traditionalist communities alongside secular ones

    Listen, I don't want to lose the thread here. I'm arguing that liberalism is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for societies' prosperity or wealth (in the senses used). Since to say that A causes B is to suppose that A is sufficient for B, that also means that liberalism cannot have caused the current prosperity or wealth. Ultimately, other factors are doing the work.

    What I'm not saying is that I think liberalism (or conservatism or some degree of both) is evil or necessarily maladaptive to societies. That's not part of my argument. I don't necessarily dislike every liberal policy — nowhere have I said that — and if you look above your first comment to me, I've actually put forward some politically liberal arguments in this thread (though, partly, I was playing advocatus diabolus for the sake of the dialectic, too). What I'm focussed on here in my comments to you, though, is very specific.


    [1] Joseph and Frances Gies' Merchants and Moneymen: The Commercial Revolution, 1000-1500 covers this well. David Graeber's Debt: The First 5,000 Years is also interesting in relation to it. 

    ReplyDelete
  32. @ Santi

    Translation: traditionalists can appeal to disgust at gay and lesbian acts, but liberals shouldn't appeal to empathy for the biologically inherited siren call of gay and lesbian desire and pair-bonding.

    No. For traditionalists and liberals, 'gut reactions' are defeasible indicators of what is morally right and wrong. In moral training, one should learn not to rely on sentiment. I don't know how you got this translation from what I said.

    Maybe, but think ecology here. The 21st century city's ecosystem--the concrete jungle--is very different from the medieval rural ecosystem out of which Thomism etc. emerged. So if you're right, traditionalist and nostalgia-loving Catholics, Muslims, and Protestants will be adapted to city life in ways akin to Hasidic Jews in New York.

    I think communities will be generally more urban. I am not sure why you think that means they will be liberal. Take Islamic communities in Europe; they are urban, but at least on that side of the sea, they do not liberalize, and therefore they breed.

    And I wonder what actual demographers would say about this.

    I have in mind the work of Eric Kaufmann. I am not sure how widely accepted views like his are; I have nothing approximating familiarity with demography. But I find it hard to imagine a serious demographer, whatever his ideological commitments, denying that liberal populations do not reproduce themselves, while traditionalist ones do - and that, in certain locations, there is not enough of an 'apostasy factor' to make up for the difference.

    I've got to believe that people scoring one or two standard deviations higher on IQ tests than people today, in addition to having fewer children, will also tend to be more skeptical of religion, but it's also true that religious and authoritarian temperaments have a strong genetic component behind them, so it might be a wash.

    I am amazed that you could make yourself write this paragraph. But there it is.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Oh, and a brief aside on slavery: the Church repeatedly tried to denounce slavery in the 10th and 11th centuries. It was de facto abolished for a while in the Middle Ages by the advent of the horse collar (11th to 12th century), which rendered slaves an inferior source of labour, until around the Romanus Pontifex bull in 1455 when it became allowed in cases of—if I recall right—“just war” with non-Christians. My view is that trends in slavery tend to follow economic and technological shifts (even if you look at civil war era America, this tends to be the case). But either way, not unique to politically liberal policy-making.

    ReplyDelete
  34. DNW:

    Did you know that Camille Paglia is a lesbian in favor of gay marriage?

    As for Promethean Man, you write that as "technology advances, it may even become true in the sense that they [liberals like Santi and Richard Rorty] will float more or less free of many of the constraints we have faced in the past and merely considered part of the human condition."

    In other words, you're saying that the organ of the mind (the brain) is now bringing technology to the point of fundamentally disrupting the course of nature heretofor--including the nature of our existing bodies--which is what I've been saying all along is the problem with natural law: it doesn't have any non-question begging reasons for why we shouldn't use our brains and hands to do this; why we shouldn't hijack the whole created order--the given order--to other purposes.

    In the light of what we know about variant evolutionary gambits, why shouldn't we experiment? Why shouldn't we take over our own evolution?

    The great question of the second half of the 21st century will be: why shouldn't we transform ourselves into genetically enhanced hybrids and cyborgs that live for perhaps thousands of years?

    In this sense, things like gay marriage and transgender surgery are the early tropes anticipating this looming question.

    Gay marriage and transgender surgery are forms of hybridity that press the question: why not? If natural law flounders before these smaller questions (and I think that it does), what can it say to the larger existential iceberg heading in our collective direction?

    The logic of the Enlightenment (it's now evident after what's played out over the last 350 years) brings us to Promethean transhumanism. Nietzsche was the first to see that it would come to something like this.

    And the logic of the liminal and transitional is not the logic of the Golden Mean. Combine the Enlightenment with evolution, and what can Thomism say in response--except to grouse impotently as the world goes on experimenting with novel forms of being?

    Gay marriage is a novel form of being. It carries within it the seeds of the logic of the cyborg. It's a super freak. (It's super freaky.)

    Yow.

    ReplyDelete

  35. Writing with his favorite purple crayon, Santi rhetorizes,

    "Capitalism is a liberal idea; democracy is a liberal idea; ending the careers of executioners and torturers are liberal ideas; equality for women, blacks, and gays is a liberal idea; and the non-Herderian, non-blood and soil, idea of a transnational global community is a liberal idea. (The ultimate circle of human empathy.)"

    But Santi's fascist master Rorty, is a little more forthright,

    "I do not claim to make the distinction between education and conversation on the basis of anything except my loyalty to a particular community, a community whose interests required re-educating the Hitler Youth in 1945 and required re-educating the bigoted students of Virginia in 1993. I don’t see anything herrschaftsfrei about my handling of my fundamentalist students. Rather, I think those students are lucky to find themselves under the benevolent Herrschaft of people like me, and to have escaped the grip of their frightening, vicious, dangerous parents. It seems to me that I am just as provincial and contextualist as the Nazi teachers who made their students read Der Stürmer; the only difference is that I serve a better cause. I come from a better province."

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-some-of-your-professors-see-you.html

    ReplyDelete
  36. Santi said,

    Gay marriage is a novel form of being. It carries within it the seeds of the logic of the cyborg.

    An aside: I often find the manner in which homosexuality (and heterosexuality for that matter) is talked about on this blog verges on the offensive, however nothing, I repeat nothing, I've yet seen here quite approaches the depths of this.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Santi said...

    DNW:

    Did you know that Camille Paglia is a lesbian in favor of gay marriage?"


    Sure. that is why I quoted her. It's called "even some of them get it".

    Have you read Camille Paglia on Matthew Shepard and the nature of male homosexual practice?

    You might wind up a little less chirpy, if you do.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Both Anscombe and Santi bear out my eschatological hypothesis that Hell will involve having to listen to Wittgensteinians talk about sex.

    ReplyDelete
  39. DNW,

    I have no doubt that most of my professors are liberal in most ways it's possible (well, also covertly socialist in policy preferences), and never have (it's trivially true in this part of Canada, where nearly all people are liberal.) It wasn't always like that though, and doesn't at all follow that the university -- or current education model -- is somehow a liberal invention. Just that it's staffed by liberals.

    ReplyDelete
  40. " Santi said...

    DNW:

    Did you know that Camille Paglia is a lesbian in favor of gay marriage?

    As for Promethean Man ..."



    I wrote nothing about "Promethean man". That perfervid delusion is all your own.

    You remind me the characters referenced in a hilarious passage in "The Pilgrim's Regress".

    The Pilgrim, John, wounded and beaten is limping along a road after fleeing the town of Eschropolis; home of the self-regarding, socially progressive and ultra-modernist "Clevers". Outside of town, he passes by one Mr. Mammnon, mending a fence. Mr. Mammon refuses any to help him. John therefore lamely proceeds down the road until he hears himself being hailed.

    " 'What do you want? shouted John.

    'Come back' said Mr, Mammon.

    John was so tired and hungry that he humbled himself to walk back ...

    'Where did you get your clothes torn?'

    'I had a quarrel with the Clevers in Eschropolis'

    'Clevers?'

    'Don't you know of them?'

    'Never heard of them'

    'You know Eschropolis?'

    'Know it? I own Eschropolis'

    'How do you mean?'

    'What do you suppose they live on?'

    'I never thought of that'

    'Every man of them earns his living by writing for me ... I suppose the "Clevers" is some nonsense they do in their spare time ..."



    Yeah, the Progressive Movement; the New Socialist Man; The Brights; A+; and now Promethean Man: bestial cyborg appetite thing. Knowing nothing but that it wants, but not knowing why nor where it is going - which is ultimately nowhere on its own terms.

    Really Santi ... and you object to strictly secular conceptual parallels made between you and the Christian notion of the diabolical?

    Golly. What exactly - in the least purple prose you can possibly manage - is that siren call you are hearing? That we shall be like God? Is it that: "Do what you will is the whole of the law?"

    Or if you don't like that question, what is your philosophical anthropology, Santi? What is a human organism that we should regard it - that there can even be said to be a "we"? Does it have a core being of some kind? If there are no essential natures: what entity is it that you stake your claims as in aid of?

    You engage in all this Promethean nonsense for the sake of a what, exactly?

    ReplyDelete


  41. " Blogger John West said...

    DNW,

    I have no doubt that most of my professors are liberal in most ways it's possible (well, also covertly socialist in policy preferences), and never have (it's trivially true in this part of Canada, where nearly all people are liberal.) It wasn't always like that though, and doesn't at all follow that the university -- or current education model -- is somehow a liberal invention. Just that it's staffed by liberals.

    April 22, 2015 at 8:04 AM"



    If I somehow made the claim that the university was an invention of what we in North America currently call liberals, It was inadvertent.

    The solidarity pimping con artists of the modern age have little obvious in common with the aims of those for whom "liberal" was once a synonym for "free", independent and self-responsible.

    ReplyDelete
  42. DNW,

    Just getting out in front of it.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Ha! I thought Santi was bad when he was trying to make a nominalist philosophical arguemtn from an essence of evolution, but his historical political philosophy diatribe is so much more hilarious. When will Liberalism and Traditionalism/Conservatism: A Gnostic Essentialist Account of Our Zero-sum World by Santi Tafarelli be out?

    Santi,

    What are reactionary "nationalist agendas?" How can liberalism be against nationalism? Self-determination is one of its greatest modern tenets, and before that it was the related idea of sovereignty. Perhaps you meant liberal internationalism?

    Liberal political nationalism emerged in direct opposition to Catholic Universalism, which held that morals trumped national prerogatives. Of course, "reactionaries" don't hold a monopoly on universalist ideas. Remember the French Revolution, when liberal ideas included massacring thousands in the terror and attempts to spread the revolution throughout Europe? Modern autocrats seem pretty enthusiastic about the globalization of markets, and the way they facilitate extractive economies. Wait, is Robert Mugabe traditional or liberal? how about, Ghaddafi?

    Maybe you are conflating international liberalism, American political liberalism, and classical liberalism because you are completely ignorant of history and social science? This could be why you mix ideas that are contradictory together.

    I think a more likely answer is that you are (at least superficially) familar with some of the history you cite, and maybe even some political science theories. I think you intentionally use words like liberalism equivocally, cherry-picking ideas that you like to construct one of the most essentialist accounts there is. This isn't very charitable, but your tone doesn't really promote empathy.

    You claim to eschew essentialism and 'zero-sum' characterizations, yet you present all of your arguments in the form of the false dichotomy: traditional/liberal. And you present your narrative as if traditionalists and liberals have always had the same positions on every topic. History can be divided into 'good' and 'bad' camps in one overarching gnostic narrative. All this and you object to Thomist arguments on the grounds of their essentialism!

    It would be hilarious if people like you weren't important political figures with access to modern implements of repression that dwarfed the abilities of any totalitarian dictator of the 20th century, let alone a "traditionalist" medieval ruler. Technology may be at the point "of fundamentally disrupting the course of nature," but it is unlikely to serve some trend of empathy you claim will emancipate us from the need for our archaic moral system.

    Instead, the ability of the state to read biometric data, monitor millions of cameras, and record this writing will almost certainly serve the interests of a few political entrepreuners. Just as "history" has always been kind to those with a comparative advantage in information.

    Folks like your Apple friend in California will gain even more power to monitor his employees (wouldn't want them to find new ways of killing themselves after installing those nets on the roofs, now would we?) and manipulate society. Its more likely that someone like him will gain control over something society holds essential and then threaten entire regions if their democratically determined policies aren't "liberal" enough...

    In short, why should anyone listen to your technology + empathy + evolution runs its course = "better" future argument? None of your premises are supported and the conclusion doesn't follow from them anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  44. DNW:

    Rorty's not a fascist, nor does he have zombie apocalypse followers who hang on his every word as gospel. I certainly do not regard teenage evangelicals in Virginia as akin to Nazi youth, for example, and I think that the Rorty quote you offer is a good example of a failure of empathy for contingent otherness--the otherness of evangelicals.

    When an evangelical enters a college classroom, she gets the syllabus on the first day and has to decide whether the professor's assigned readings are something she wants to subject herself to. Once she decides to work with the professor's chosen texts, she's committed to reading them for grading purposes. But the option of not taking the class is always available.

    Thus Rorty's claim to paternal "domination" in this context is grotesque and idiotic. He presumes far too much of his own privilege and rank in a diverse and rambunctious democracy. Who died and made Rorty king? Oh, that would be God. (I suppose.)

    But people in America always have the option to walk away--and believe in God.

    So as with the gay and lesbian community, there's nothing in evangelical otherness that a free society can't incorporate. An ongoing Nazi youth movement in post-WWII Germany in the late 1940s is another thing entirely (the distinction is akin to gay marriage v. pedophilia).

    It's a matter of integration v. censure and segregation.

    So the quote you offer of Rorty is representative of someone not letting empathy for contingent otherness bring a sense of proportion to his utopian project.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Santi,

    Your position is regularly undermined by the very authorities you cite; once their own words are presented, rather than your rhetorical allusions to what they have supposedly said.

    Apparently you now believe that an academic drone, a theatrically knowing attitude, and some languid hand waving, will somehow float you above the mess you have created for yourself.

    It won't. You'll have to flap harder and more convincingly than that.

    Misdirecting a classroom of not very bright freshmen as a means of extricating yourself from some embarrassing difficulty might work on campus, but you should know better than to try it here.

    The entire context is recorded. There is no bell to save you, no saying "let's move on", when it gets too uncomfortable.

    The Rorty quote speaks for itself.

    It was originally presented here by Feser long before I ever acquired my first copy of Rorty's work.

    Yet all this while you have been virtually quoting "Contingency, irony, and solidarity" as if it is a bible of some sort. Have you read none of the other Rortian scriptures?

    How is it that you consistently show so little real familiarity with the doctrines of the supposed authorities you polemically deploy here?

    You say that Rorty's not as I described him: as a humid fascist and solidarity pimping con artist? How would you, Santi, even claim to know?

    ReplyDelete
  46. I was talking to a friend yesterday who said, "There's always a rock." In other words, there's always something in the road or in the ground you're furrowing that creates an obstacle to your project. It's what you do with the rock, how you deal with the rock, that's important--for there's always a rock. Always. That's life. Dealing with the rock. Every day there's a new rock.

    Rorty handled his rock (evangelicals) badly. Thomists should consider his example as a caution. They should be careful not to handle the otherness of gays and lesbians with the same--"we can't incoporate them" in civil marriage--attitude. And this applies to gays and lesbians as well: they need to do their best to accommodate with empathy the baker who says no to them.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Jeremy writes the following:

    "[T]he traditional conservative does not believe in liberty as an abstract thing. He believes in ordered liberty,...Liberty is often a good thing, but it is not the end or sole standard of politics."

    Translation: gay and lesbian sexual behavior, marriage, and social organizing are excluded from Jeremy's definition of liberty.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I really do wonder if Santi actually thinks he is convincing anyone of anything (except he couldn't construct a decent argument to save his life). Is there anyone lurking here who has been convinced of anything by Santi that he wanted to convince them of? Anyone who has looked at his posts and been anything but bored and annoyed?

    ReplyDelete
  49. John West,

    I know it is controversial, but I'm not convinced that slavery, or the status of a bondsman, is necessarily immoral. Certainly, slavery carries with it some obvious moral dangers - someone being a slave is no excuse not to treat them as a full person - and is therefore generally better avoided, but I don't know if it necessarily immoral.

    I work in a political department in a university in Australia. I find that most members lean left but I have never really felt that many of the professors were out and out radicals or anything like that.

    ReplyDelete
  50. John West said: "...on slavery: the Church repeatedly tried to denounce slavery in the 10th and 11th centuries."

    To which Jeremy Taylor replied: "I know it is controversial, but I'm not convinced that slavery, or the status of a bondsman, is necessarily immoral. Certainly, slavery carries with it some obvious moral dangers - someone being a slave is no excuse not to treat them as a full person - and is therefore generally better avoided, but I don't know if it necessarily immoral."

    I think it's telling that slavery's moral abomination, and its consequent abolition, elicits controversy in these threads. It's a striking illustration of what can happen when metaphysical reasoning floats free of empathy and story.

    To recover his moral bearings, perhaps Jeremy would do better to immerse himself in reading Uncle Tom's Cabin or Frederick Douglass rather than St. Paul and Thomas Aquinas?

    One of the things that continues to surprise me about these threads is that intellectual Christianity does not appear to make its enthusiasts less cruel, crass, or morally blinkered than average.

    Why is that?

    ReplyDelete
  51. Santi,

    Who cares how things 'appear' to you? Your feelings are not an argument.

    And what is average cruelty or crassness? Why should we judge someone based on their approximation to the average, or any standard? Aren't you the one who says we shouldn't derive oughts from means?

    What if crassness and cruelty are evolutionary gambits?

    ReplyDelete
  52. I'm not a Thomist, as I have told you several times in the last few months.

    I think it is telling that can't reason to save your life. Now go away. Nobody actually cares what you have to say. You are not contributing anything meaningful. You are just wasting our time and your own.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Now Jeremy, you're really trying to have it both ways here. Free speech for you, but I need to "go away." Liberty for you, but not for gays and lesbians. Freedom for you, but slavery for others.

    But then you also write something I actually can agree with: "...family and local community...are man's best protection against the centralised state. The individual alone is weak. He requires social associations materially and even psychologically."

    So now I have to say thank you. You've made the case eloquently for gay marriage.

    What you say above is exactly what will be said to the Supreme Court justices. (Not the slavery part, the family and communities part.)

    So congratulations. You've just staked a claim for integration and non-isolation for yourself that does work for gay and lesbian equality as well.

    I agree with you, Jeremy. One size shouldn't fit all. The wisdom of variation is found in a range of families and communities across the country, and that keeps the Leviathan state in check. It balances powers.

    These independent communities are a bulwark against soul and conscience-crushing conformity and sameness. They're part of what it means to be free, and not "being subjected to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, arbitrary Will of Men" (as the 17th century feminist, Mary Astell, put it in reference to women's slavery in marriage).

    We've come a long way, baby.

    It's now among our human rights not to be enslaved (in marriage, by the state, or by anyone else), to marry, and to organize into a community with independence-loving people who share our values and passions.

    These are so necessary.

    But now tell us all why you would then deny these good things to gay and lesbian people. Why shouldn't they be free and equal and start their own marriages, families, and communities--exactly like you?

    19th century polygamists started a non-conformist community in Salt Lake, and 21st century gays and lesbians have started non-conformist communities in California (in places like the Castro District of San Francisco and West Hollywood in Los Angeles).

    The Castro and West Hollywood are communities. Families reside in them. Businesses and cultural venues thrive in them. Individuals take solace and support from their just being there. Gays and lesbians derive collective strength from them to resist the elements of disapproval and conformity that converge upon them.

    Or are these forms of empowerment and conscience only for people like you?

    ReplyDelete
  54. Greg:

    You wrote: "In moral training, one should learn not to rely on sentiment."

    But we were social animals before we were rational animals, which means that our evolved social instincts are probably pretty good when we're dealing with those within our tribe.

    This is why we want to expand the circle of empathy: to make our tribe as large as possible. It helps us reason clearly about other people.

    Put another way, if we cut ourselves off from social emotions like empathy in the service of an idea or ideology, we might well find ourselves engaged in poor decision making (and even atrocities).

    Our shared human and imaginative literature is full of cautions about what happens when we separate ourselves from our positive social emotions (from the legalistic blindness of the Pharisees, to King Creon's callousness in Antigone, to King Lear's icy treatment of his daughter Cordelia).

    In our evolutionary strategy, we could have been more like go-it-alone sharks than like hippie bonobos. But most of us are not. And if you think that's a good thing, as I do, then one shouldn't reason morally without being attentive to what Lincoln called "the better angels of our nature." These include the positive social emotions of love, friendliness, mercy, and empathy.

    ReplyDelete
  55. "I think it's telling that slavery's moral abomination, and its consequent abolition, elicits controversy in these threads. It's a striking illustration of what can happen when metaphysical reasoning floats free of empathy and story. "


    I always thought it was striking that left-wing cultural relativists when pushed to the wall would sometimes admit that slavery was not objectively wrong.

    After all, what as far as they are concerned, could make slavery "wrong" other than some culturally conditioned way of looking at things?

    Sort of like killing; wherein Rorty admits that killing humans is something that we do and then get around to justifying later. Among the sanctioned killings he mentions are the killings performed by abortionists. It's in that book you were quoting, Santi.

    A Thomist of course could make the case that slavery is ultimately incompatible with the natural law as properly understood.

    An Aristotelian, on the other hand might grant you that some people are in fact so effed up as to be life incompetent. It does not follow however that they should be made servants. For that is more trouble than it is worth to most people with healthy egos.

    As far as slavery goes, I am completely and utter opposed to all forms of involuntary servitude, and pretty much to the notion of servitude itself.

    One would think that taking the position you supposedly do, Rorty's fascism and his scam directed to stealing the life energies and efforts of some by political means, in order to transfer the benefits to a preferred class of neurasthenics and quivering neurotics squealing over their emotional pain and lack of inclusion, would be obvious.

    Maybe we need a new kind "Uncle Tom's Cabin" to rouse libertarians to direct action by showing just how utterly morally alien you nihilist appetite entities of the left, really are.

    Only this new story, unlike the original, would not be fiction written by someone who had never personally experienced the phenomenon she was supposedly describing.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Here are three ways of tapping the brakes on singular, hubristic, and hedgehog-like social goals: (1) empathy; (2) remember the biological wisdom of the variant that underwrites allowances for diversity; and (3) respect conscience (a good in itself).

    Three "commandments" for a well functioning democracy.

    So in the quote that DNW offered, Rorty had a King Creon moment. Fortunately (and comically), he had no power to actually enforce it. He raved like mad King Lear without the authority of King Lear. A moment of bluster, hubris, and absurdity for a neo-pragmatist.

    Quite the moment of irony without the solidarity.

    Rorty's quote illustrates that a neo-pragmatist, in the service of a contingent or provincial cause, can just as surely dehumanize the individual as any Hegelian with a "grand picture" cause (religious or secular).

    Individuals block the eschaton. Before the revolutionary group crushes them, it demonizes them. It's an old story. A tragic story.

    Rorty had a bad moment inconsistent with the values he has expressed everywhere else in his writings.

    DNW and Feser are right to highlight the quote--it is awful--but it should also be noted that when Rorty is asked in interview--"What's the most important virtue of the ironist?"--his reply is a single word: "Tolerance" (p.80 of a book of collected interviews with Rorty, titled "Take Care of Freedom and Truth Will Take Care of Itself," Stanford 2006).

    The title itself is an ironic retort to Rorty's intemperate moment.

    ReplyDelete
  57. DNW:

    You wrote, "Maybe we need a new kind 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' to rouse libertarians to direct action..."

    I thought you already had that in Atlas Shrugged. (And now available as a trilogy set in DVD.)

    ReplyDelete
  58. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Apparently my previous post reverted to the first draft some time between when I finished it and when I posted it. Sorry about that.
    ---

    Incidentally, has anyone here read Walter Ultmann's The Individual and Society in the Middle Ages? I'm told he argues that the Constitution is the ultimate evolution of medieval political thought in it.

    ReplyDelete
  60. @ Santi

    I'm not sure what you're proposing. We have a lot of data on this point: However wide our community becomes, people's visceral reactions continue to disagree. How can one appeal to sentiment if others feel different sentiments?

    Perhaps this could be a start if there were evidence that in inclusive communities of the sort you love, people's sentiments converge. But that is not true.

    Maybe you are not sure yourself what you are claiming. You write:

    This is why we want to expand the circle of empathy: to make our tribe as large as possible. It helps us reason clearly about other people.

    Why appeal to better forms of reasoning about other people if what matters is sentiment? If two different ethnic groups mix and are hostile towards each other, we have "made our tribe larger". But here we need to critique the sentiment; and when we do so, we can't appeal to sentiment, but rather must appeal to some other standard. And it would patently be circular to appeal to the sentiments people feel about other people in cultures where different ethnic groups get along, for we want to say why the latter cultures have sentiments that should be taken as normative, while the former do not.

    if we cut ourselves off from social emotions like empathy in the service of an idea or ideology, we might well find ourselves engaged in poor decision making (and even atrocities).

    Sure, but who said we should cut ourselves off from empathy?

    I said it is a defeasible indicator of what is moral. If you grew up in Nazi Germany and were trained to hate other races, then you may not feel empathy for certain people. In such cases it is important to recognize that something other than the empathy has to do the interesting work.

    And that is surely the case in less drastic examples as well. Humans do not empathize naturally with the other. Societies that are merely more diverse are not eo ipso more empathetic and humane; that this requires pointing out is extraordinary. We have to appeal to some other standard to be able to say that we ought to be more empathetic in those cases.

    Your arguments are pathetic, in the ancient sense of pathos. As usual, the point you are making relies on something other than you think it does. I am sorry, Santi, but I really don't think that there is much more for me to say to you. You have a set of conclusions that you are very attached to, but you do not seem to understand them yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Jeremy,

    I know it is controversial, but I'm not convinced that slavery, or the status of a bondsman, is necessarily immoral. Certainly, slavery carries with it some obvious moral dangers - someone being a slave is no excuse not to treat them as a full person - and is therefore generally better avoided, but I don't know if it necessarily immoral. 

    I guess your case is something like: the harms associated with slavery don't necessarily follow from slavery (ie. There are historical cases where slaves have been treated better than most free men of their era) and, on traditional conservatism, freedom is not in and of itself a good. So slavery is not necessarily immoral.

    In contrast, since classical liberals consider human freedom an end—an inalienable human right—itself, they argue slavery is immoral in virtue of it by definition depriving people of freedom. The arguments I've seen for this view of freedom are usually tacitly theological (ie. Considering freedom a birthright: “Man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains.”).

    My possibly naive concern about traditional conservatism is that it always seems on so many metaphysical suppositions that most people no longer believe or, at least, take serious. I agree with Ed that we need pay attention to the metaphysical background of our ethics and politics. But if our own metaphysical background is radically different from most people's, I suspect we need pay attention to most people's metaphysic, or they're not going to take our arguments seriously or be moved by them.

    I work in a political department in a university in Australia. I find that most members lean left but I have never really felt that many of the professors were out and out radicals or anything like that.

    I have to admit, the only person I've met from the political department is a Marxist-Leninist professor. Though, I would be surprised if most of the professors were downright radicals, so you're probably right.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Santi, I have no idea what you are droning on about. I don't mind if you stay, but not if you are just going to post the same repetitive, banal, fallacious nonsense.

    Why are unable to make a half-decent argument? Why do you think emotional, fallacious drivel is worth wasting all the time of you and the rest of us with?

    Don't you think there is something ironic about the fact you are claiming greater reasoning power for moderns and yet you seem unable to reason properly?

    ReplyDelete
  63. John West,

    I don't really think that traditional conservatism is likely to have a resurgence in the foreseeable future. I have more or less resigned myself to that. To a degree I am happy enough with that.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Jeremy Taylor said...

    Santi, I have no idea what you are droning on about. I don't mind if you stay, but not if you are just going to post the same repetitive, banal, fallacious nonsense.

    Why are unable to make a half-decent argument? Why do you think emotional, fallacious drivel is worth wasting all the time of you and the rest of us with?

    Don't you think there is something ironic about the fact you are claiming greater reasoning power for moderns and yet you seem unable to reason properly?

    April 23, 2015 at 4:19 PM



    Gentlemen,

    Santi reasons that reason is purely instrumental. We know that, right? Reason as slave to the passions; no "ought" from an "is"; radically historicist; no to any God's eye point of view; yes, to nominalism, relativism, and the notion of moral statements as either reflecting arbitrary cultural conventions, or as subjective expressions of emotion.

    So, Santi doesn't "do arguments" of the moral kind when he is staking claims against your life, tolerance, or attention. Because, like Rorty, he does not believe that moral claims can be deduced, but only repetitiously asserted.

    So instead of argument, he does story-time, and make believe.

    He tries to cast a rhetorical spell by offering up platitudes, and trying to verbally lever open any "we context" he can discover.

    To this end, the Bible, popular culture, "democracy", "freedom", "American progress" and widely disseminated scientific ideas like evolution, are all just grist for the propaganda mill.

    According to that framing, he who is the biggest and most persistent blowhard, wins the war of social attrition.

    Therefore, Santi's appearance here is not so much trollish as reflective of a consciously implemented program aimed at social desensitization and ideological subversion.

    Since, to take an extreme example for the sake of impact, he cannot prove to you by his own standards that he has an intrinsic right to life, or, that you should refrain from killing him for any other than, say, possibly prudential reasons, he can only hope to exhaust you, lull you, get you used to him, and possibly to get you to project your own humanity onto him in a way that will help him to get what he wants from you.

    There is no mystery to this. These kinds of fellows have said exactly what it is that they are about, and even quoted their marching orders.

    It's only our own disbelief (mine too) that anyone would adopt such a contemptible social and intellectual framing for their lives, that keeps us shaking our heads in baffled wonderment and exasperation.

    We say, "Who would want to play such a shitty, worthless game, and why?"

    And they say, it tastes just fine to them, pass the ketchup ...

    ReplyDelete
  65. Greg:

    You wrote: "If two different ethnic groups mix and are hostile towards each other, we have 'made our tribe larger'. But here we need to critique the sentiment; and when we do so, we can't appeal to sentiment, but rather must appeal to some other standard."

    But you're not making the distinction between public and private that I've been trying to make. There's a private realm where what Rorty calls our most "sublime" aspirations are pursued (as when two lesbians start a life together; as when a religious convert joins a religious community; as when an artist joins an artist colony), and there is the larger public realm where you carve out a space of empathy for the Other (for those who you have to share a society with, but don't share your passions).

    The larger public realm is not a pure space where God's highest will or your private sublime is pursued. These pursuits are reserved for the private realm. Instead, the public realm is where you compromise; where you strike a deal (as opposed to coming to blows).

    I would hope that a lesbian would never say to a Baptist minister or Catholic priest: "You have to marry me and my lesbian lover in your church--or I'm calling the police." That would be a breach into the private realm of conscience and choice.

    Likewise, I think that forcing a lay evangelical to write on a wedding cake is a breach of that private realm. It intrudes one's private sublime onto another's private sublime.

    That's where the compromise has to take place as the two citizens step back into the shared public space WITH EMPATHY. That's where the armor comes down some and the circle of empathy widens a bit. "Let's make a deal: You've got to sell me a cake for all other purposes, but you don't have to make my wedding cake. Deal?"

    And they shake on it. They recognize each other's humanity and respect the fact that in a democracy variant groups have variant passions that are sublime to them and not to others.

    This isn't settling a score by appeal to a higher standard that hovers above the heads of the two parties. This handshake doesn't follow after both groups have carefully reasoned together on metaphysics, agreed on common criteria for determining whose passions are best and whose judgments are most reasonable. Such questions have no non-question begging answers. (Or, at any rate, no universally agreed upon procedures for answering them.)

    Rather, this is a way of making the shared public space less cruel, more tolerant, and more just; it's a way of working out deals over competing goods (gay marriage v. conscience).

    The work in this realm gets done by: empathy; metaphor; story; the no-harm principle; respect for diversity and conscience; whatever level of reasoning we can get everyone to agree upon; legal reasoning; and pragmatic reasoning.

    Regarding pragmatic reasoning, this does not appeal to ultimate metaphysical ends by a standard that everyone in the public realm shares, but on more modest and "local" reasoning. If we agree that freedom is a good, and conscience is a good, we don't have to link these up to God or some higher metaphysical network of ideas to get to tolerable public compromises.

    Once the public realm is vacated, however, then the contending groups go back to their sublime pursuits (metaphysics, poetry, bird watching, witnessing on street corners, making porn videos, making money, etc.). No harm, no foul. Empathy in the public realm for the crooked timber of humanity; relentless pursuit of the good in the private realm.

    ReplyDelete
  66. " And they shake on it. They recognize each other's humanity and ..."


    Calling Bullshit here. Empty words from a nominalist.

    ReplyDelete
  67. DNW,

    I think you are giving Santi way too much credit. I think he argues atrociously because he is lazy, ignorant, and just doesn't care about thinking things through and contributing properly. He thinks it perfectly fine to vomit forth fallacious nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
  68. I agree with DNW. If as Jeremy says, Santi were just lazy and ignorant, he would have come up with some sort of response to the objections many have presented. He refuses to answer objections about contradictions because he has no answers. So he's just dishonest and 'arguing' in bad faith.

    "It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is indeed a circle." -Santi's methodological mentor.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I mean, when I'm not involved in the conversation or reading the dialogue between Santi and someone else, I literally just skip over it. So, not much effect if Santi's an evil mastermind.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Fallacious nonsense? I would say that this quote from Alasdair Macintyre in 1981 is in the ballpark of the public-private distinction that I'm arguing for (if with far more resignation in his voice):

    "A crucial turning point in that earlier history [the Roman period] occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. What they set themselves to achieve instead—often not recognising fully what they were doing—was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness....What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual and moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us. And if the tradition of the virtues was able to survive the horrors of the last dark ages, we are not entirely without grounds for hope. This time however the barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time. And it is our lack of consciousness of this that constitutes part of our predicament. We are waiting not for a Godot, but for another—doubtless very different—St. Benedict."

    In other words, he's saying: there came a time when the Christian Church stopped treating the Roman public realm as the instrument for enacting its vision of the sublime. And today, we (Christians) can no longer extend our highest moral values successfully into the public realm to anything like the extent of past ages. America is not a Christian nation; it's too fragmented for that sort of uniformity. But in the private realm, we can build up our own religious communities--and hope one day that enough people will want to implement a less diverse, more totalist, vision for the nation as a whole.

    Of course, (and this is me talking) that utopian future will never happen, and in the meantime, the public-private distinction is what the contending groups have got to work with. Mormons communities, gay communities, Catholic communities etc. all have to share cities and a nation together. Hence the need for empathy, tolerance, compromise, and a willingness to weigh competing goods (at least in the public realm).

    ReplyDelete
  71. Obviously, we weren't just talking about one point you were making. We were talking about your general style of arguing, if it can be called that. You argue again and again simply by rhetorical (though the rhetoric is usually repetitive and banal), emotional appeal and commit gross fallacies all the time as well as jumping around all over the place from argument to argument.

    You never commit yourself to even a modicum of rigor or rationality.

    I don't deny that some of this has to do with your beliefs, but I don't think there is any conscious ideology at work here. I don't think, as some others do, that you read in Rorty's work that this was a good strategy. I just think it is your own personal way of arguing, or rather not arguing.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Jeremy,

    I don't really think that traditional conservatism is likely to have a resurgence in the foreseeable future. I have more or less resigned myself to that. To a degree I am happy enough with that.

    Well, resurgences aren't everything. Fair enough.

    ReplyDelete
  73. @ Santi

    What you've said about public and private realms has not touched the point where you quoted me, for the problem still arises in the public realm... empathy is fickle, and our empathetic judgments correspond to what is right, if they do at all, either accidentally or because they were trained that way. But people wildly disagree over their empathetic judgment.

    A substantial number of liberals in the US, for instance, would reject what you think: that empathy dictates that gays and lesbians should not (enlist the government to) coerce Christian bakers to bake them wedding cakes. You aren't both right; but they could (and in some cases, do) appeal to empathy just as you do. I think that the dispute can be navigated; I think there is a right answer disclosable to reason. But consulting empathy is not the way to find it.

    And today, we (Christians) can no longer extend our highest moral values successfully into the public realm to anything like the extent of past ages. America is not a Christian nation; it's too fragmented for that sort of uniformity. But in the private realm, we can build up our own religious communities--and hope one day that enough people will want to implement a less diverse, more totalist, vision for the nation as a whole.

    Except MacIntyre's communities are local, not private. And MacIntyre is not advocating the public/private distinction or defending it as the culmination of human value, as you are. He is realistic about it; but then, so is everyone. No one here has denied that the distinction is applicable to contemporary American politics. But then no one defending marriage today thinks that he has to reject the public/private distinction; Girgis, Anderson, and George, for instance, certainly accept it and simply argue that gay 'marriage' is contrary to the public good.

    Back to MacIntyre: He thinks that "empathy, tolerance, compromise, and a willingness to weigh competing goods" are part of a conceptually confused tradition that has to be replaced because it simply doesn't work.

    I imagine at the time of After Virtue, though, MacIntyre was not thinking so much as you are in terms of compromise, for there were fewer ways in which the broader nation impinged on particular communities. But I would very much doubt that MacIntyre could endorse what you propose; for if I leave my comprehensive understanding of rationality and morality at the door when I enter the public realm, and adopt instead the modern moral problematic, then I will be acting and talking in ways that are not coherent - and therefore I will be developing habits contrary to what I believe constitute human flourishing (and which do constitute human flourishing, if MacIntyre is correct).

    ReplyDelete
  74. Girgis, Anderson, and George, for instance, certainly accept it and simply argue that gay 'marriage' is contrary to the public good.

    I should say, rather, that they grant it. I am not sure whether they accept it, though I am confident none of them accept it, as you have articulated it, wholesale.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Greg:

    Maybe private-public conveys the idea that the private is hidden from the public, and I wouldn't want to leave the impression that this is what I want (hidden communities). I'm okay with local/larger (or some such formulation). People should not hide their beliefs or practices from the ears and eyes of others. Adults can hear and see things that they don't like, and they can practice tolerance. They just don't have to share your sublime visions or join your assemblies (or mine).

    So it's one thing to share your "comprehensive understanding of reason and morality" in the larger space where everybody meets. It's another to have high hopes that in a diverse democracy like ours that you are going to get much traction for a comprehensive metaphysical and moral program. You can bet the house, and hope you win it all, and put all your energies into driving the public realm in the direction of your sublime, but after that repeatedly fails, I think you'll get to the point where MacIntyre arrived: how can we make a robust blessed community within the larger community?

    In the previous post to you, I was focusing on the sorts of argumentative moves one makes when people don't share your metaphysics and morality and you're trying to reach a compromise. To settle and compromise on a pragmatic matter, you'll almost certainly have to come down some notches: what can we collectively agree on given our competing goods and visions of the good life (gay marriage v. traditional family)?

    ReplyDelete
  76. Greg,

    You wrote: "A substantial number of liberals ... reject what you think: that empathy dictates that gays and lesbians should not (enlist the government to) coerce Christian bakers..."

    Yes, I know this. Their empathy goes all in one direction--toward gays, but not Christians.

    But I think increasing the circle of empathy can be taught in the reading of good imaginative literature; in the cinema and television; in public schools as a civic virtue (to walk in the shoes of others, most especially those who oppose you; to reflect on the historic victims of utopian ambitions).

    Teaching students about the Holocaust and the cult of Mao, for example.

    I think public opinion shifted on gay marriage largely from media portrayals of gays and lesbians, and gays and lesbians coming out of the closet.

    But empathy is a two-edged sword: if you start feeling empathy for somebody, and you discover a group of others who don't feel empathy for what you now love, you're going to start feeling hate for resisters.

    Christians hating and fearing secular liberals; secular liberals hating and fearing Christians.

    It's a failure of imagination. But blessed are the peacemakers. It takes work to step over into the shoes of others; to increase the circle of empathy enough to at least tolerate what makes you angry or uncomfortable. For a while, I was strongly against veils for Muslim women in secular spaces. It felt like an upending of feminism. It still feels that way. But I've come around to saying: let people express who they are.

    I have a circle of secular friends who, when one of them recently jumped in with a snarky comment about Indiana, I retorted that I supported carve outs for conscience (and why). That set everybody back on their heels--accompanied by some pushback, then more or less silence.

    I got them thinking. If a few in a community speak up against the knee-jerk group think, it can set a tone.

    I believe that once a community communicates its red lines to the larger community, the larger community better have super good reasons for crossing those lines (immunization of children in public schools is a good reason to cross one of those lines, wedding cake inconvenience is not).

    Feser's energy in this post (and those in the thread) told me that the wedding cake is a red line for intellectual Christians.

    I think the role of the intellectual Christian is to articulate why gay marriage is opposed, and accept that not everybody is going to agree with your metaphysics, moral reasoning, and appeals to authority.

    The second thing intellectual Christians should be doing (in my view) is telling the larger public what its red lines are and why--and what they can live with.

    The third thing intellectual Christians should be doing (again, in my view) is setting a tone of empathy for one's political opponents. There needs to be liberals among liberals saying--"Increase the circle of empathy"--and there needs to be traditionalists among the traditionalists doing the same.

    It's not enough to win the abstract and intellectual argument. The empathy component has to be worked at as well. If you don't show any concern for the historic plight of gays and lesbians, or for gays and lesbians in Uganda, Russia, and Muslim countries today, then why is it surprising that others don't show much concern for your red lines and sublime projects?

    I'm not saying that's right. I'm not saying you have to go first. But somebody has to go first. Who's on first? You are. I am.

    ReplyDelete
  77. This rhetorical aim of Rorty and Santi is the psychological restructuring of the individual's concept of a good or acceptable life: to turn one away from the notion of a good life based on inherent and inalienable rights, liberty, self-responsibility and voluntary association.

    In pop Darwinian terms, the Santians are nesting in, and transforming a scaffolding originally built by others who do not inherently require nor desire from the Santians what the Santians in their neediness require from the original builders.

    We need not look on this colonization in moral terms. It probably behooves the Non-Santians not to. For when they do see the process through a moral lens, the Non-Santian is first likely to become outraged at what he thinks he sees, and then next to be faced by an insoluble conundrum born of having accidentally and tacitly granted the Santian appetite thing "fellowship", by implicitly including it as an element in the moral framework under consideration.

    The Rortian, has by this point - figuratively speaking - already injected his DNA into the family network, leaving the beholders baffled with how to deal with the resultant antinomies.


    But, to do otherwise, to assume otherwise, would be dehumanizing" someone objects?

    On what objective grounds is the Ironist's class of humanity constructed in the first place? The answer is "none".

    The Nominalist has no intrinsic categories. If "human" is a category, the nominalist has no intrinsic reference point, just a circle it arbitrarily draws, around post hoc justifications it conjures. Rorty admits all this explicitly.


    Why then, should Rortians who are apparently and on their own testimony unfit to be classically free or to enjoy such life, and who have moreover no personal interest in the development of 'Virtue' in aid of freedom and self-realization, be granted peer status in the first place?

    Why, on the Santian assumption that there is no essential human predicate mandating intrinsic respect, and no consistent area of Venn overlap, should those who prefer classical liberty give it up merely in order to assuage the psychological pains of those who are admittedly unfitted for classical liberty? {But who nonetheless prefer to live, incessantly hectoring and demanding, among those who are.)

    The Santian [pretend you are seeing all caps here] : Is by his own anthropological definition, evolutionarily other, and possibly life-aim antipathetic.

    Why then, engage in the futile project of trying to work out these associative contradictions and incompatibilities? What's the distributive benefit?

    The Santian answers "just because".

    According to him, we find ourselves helplessly caught in some so-called "community", and we must make the best of it by enabling Devil worshipers with our public solidarity, while reserving little home altars for our private projects of "sublimity".

    The Rortians, have apparently forgotten, if they ever knew " ... the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here". Probably becuse those were neither their own motivations nor their hazards.

    The Rortian "circle of empathy" program is filled with these unstated costs and assumptions. All which entail nothing less than that one should pursue the "sublime", the really worthwhile, on our private time and insofar as allowed, while unconditionally committing to self-sacrifice and the maintenance of a shared space with antipathetic others - for no worthwhile or necessary reason at all.

    But why become a "Borg" rather than a man? Why socially fetishize neurosis and regulate your life around it? Why?

    "Because", your doing so makes the Rortian feel better.

    Well it doesn't make me feel better. So let's call the whole thing off.

    Maybe they should just get a set of barbells and some exercise instead.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Though we probably disagree on the precise status of the entities in question i.e. universals, DNW really has the right approach to Nominalism.

    ReplyDelete
  79. DNW:

    In replace of refuting coherently, and in a non-question begging fashion, the actual claims I make, you've chosen to latch onto an easier target: a straw man. Richard Rorty = Santi.

    It's a way to introduce blue pipe smoke into the conversation, and not grapple directly with the position I've actually taken (one that walks a middle way, consistent with the goods of both liberty and conscience, between the claims of traditionalists and gays and lesbians).

    From the beginning of this thread, this middle way has been my position, but it's easier to ignore that fact, and focus on the straw man.

    The inconvenient truth here is that traditionalists have long targeted and victimized gays--as in Russia, as we speak--and you can distract from this by making yourself the primary victim.

    Freud might suggest that it's your bad conscience that squints at the horizon, seeing the first hints of a lesbian and gay zombie apocalypse coming your way.

    And Rorty leads this ghoulish parade, dragging a foot, one eye popped out, jaw resting on a collar bone--and made of straw.

    ReplyDelete
  80. "Santi said...

    DNW:

    In replace of refuting coherently, and in a non-question begging fashion, the actual claims I make, you've chosen to latch onto an easier target: a straw man. Richard Rorty = Santi."


    You dance along behind that old Queen of the May chanting from his scriptures like some bemused acolyte,

    http://cinapse.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/u99cT.jpg

    ... and then, when you find he has led you to the moral and intellectual precipice you somehow did not expect, you claim that it's unfair to point it out.

    For surely you, of all people, are not responsible for what Rorty has written ... though you have been all the while gleefully singing his tune, verse and refrain, for weeks on end.

    And refuted? Your nominalist logic and ensuing claim structure have been thoroughly refuted via numerous reductios, and shown incapable of admitting the inferences you insinuate, if not argue.

    Yet, while admitting that no values follow deductively from any of your supposed facts, you nonetheless persist in talking as if they do; when in truth, even your basic categories or class names cannot even be explained on the grounds of objective references, rather than through acts of subjective imagination or will.

    Feser has granted all of us way more indulgence than necessary to make this point, and for you to finally get that many of us get it.

    You have the freedom to tell stories without regard to logic or facts as part of your social transformation agenda; and are apparently determined to do so.

    And we, with Feser's indulgence, have had the freedom to point out that that is exactly what you are doing.

    What's your problem with that?

    This is a philosophy blog, Santi, maintained by a moderate realist philosopher of mind.

    It seems you may have actually been looking for the "Three Dog Night" appreciation site. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeXcaRYNlSQ

    ReplyDelete
  81. DNW:

    Because I'm a nominalist, chopping up the world without divine guidance, you think my reference to "humanity" can't possibly mean anything, but is something arbitrary (or so you claim). Therefore, I might just as well be an "it."

    But there is a way for an atheist or nominalist to ground moral behavior and orient in the world absent God, and want to go on living after losing belief in (or doubting) God's existence.

    I don't need an elaborately worked out metaphysics to do this, only my relation to awareness and God.

    Yes, I said God. Exactly like the theist, I need God to ground my morality, but not in the way that the theist does.

    How so? My disappointment.

    In other words, my very awareness of my own pain that God probably does not exist, and that I am bereft in the cosmos, elicits in me compassion for those who I think are in the same boat.

    So my disappointment that God doesn't exist, and an attribution of awareness in another, is all I need. Once I attribute awareness to somebody--awareness like I have--I feel solidarity with that person (whether they believe in God or not). I want the best for me and I want the best for them, and I'm sorry we can't have that. I feel empathy. I think we will both die, and not go on after death, and I can see that we both feel pain--and I wish it was different for both of us.

    Buddha, for example, didn't step out from under the Bodhi tree with a conviction that God exists, only that he'd figured out a way to arrest the cycle of human pain. His compassion for other beings with awareness like his own was enough to motivate him to speak and act in the world.

    I think this is enough for any evolved social animal with powerful social emotions to go on living. Suddenly, I want to say, "Well, here we are in the same bad situation. God isn't talking, we feel pain, and will one day die. What do we do together? Is the game worth the candle? If we say yes, and want to go on living, then let's make the best of it."

    Think of Taylor (Charlton Heston) in the original Planet of the Apes. He is stranded on a strange and uninhabited planet (so he thinks), but then he encounters others who he recognizes as aware, who feel pain, and who will die exactly like him. He enters into solidarity with those he recognizes as seeing in him the same thing.

    ReplyDelete
  82. To continue with the above strategy. Has anyone read Quentin Smith's Ethical and Religious Thought in Analytic Philosophy of Language? If he wanders round saying things like 'goodness is a thing realizing its nature, its natural potentialities' or 'that the Good is the actualization of one's nature' (WLC's paraphrase) then people might be inclined to draw comparisons with a certain other form of Ethical Theory mentioned not long ago...

    In fact a lot of these Naturalistic so called Ethics of Self-Realization invite said comparison - I wonder what they have to say about certain matters?

    ReplyDelete
  83. A great difficulty is in the hypocrisy - such as the GoFundMe site refusing to allow access to their service by people who wish to raise money for those who refuse services for same-sex marriages.. Don't you see that the substance of this article is to highlight these illogical philosophical ironies? And you're right, my logic does demand that. If you have a business, (that you've sunk all of your time and money and energies into), you do get to choose who to do business with.

    ReplyDelete