Friday, February 6, 2015

What’s the deal with sex? Part II


In a previous post I identified three aspects of sex which manifestly give it a special moral significance: It is the means by which new human beings are made; it is the means by which we are physiologically and psychologically completed qua men and women; and it is that area of human life in which the animal side of our nature most relentlessly fights against the rational side of our nature.  When natural law theorists and moral theologians talk about the procreative and unitive functions of sex, what they have in mind are the first two of these aspects.  The basic idea of traditional natural law theory where sex is concerned is that since the good for us is determined by the natural ends of our faculties, it cannot be good for us to use our sexual faculties in a way that positively frustrates its procreative and unitive ends.  The third morally significant aspect of sex, which is that the unique intensity of sexual pleasure can lead us to act irrationally, is perhaps less often discussed these days.  So let’s talk about that.

Aquinas provides illuminating guidance on our subject in his discussion in the Summa Theologiae of the eight “daughters” or effects of lust.  Keep in mind that “lust,” when used pejoratively by Aquinas and other natural law theorists and moral theologians, does not mean “sexual arousal.”  There is nothing wrong with sexual arousal, even intense sexual arousal, in itself.  Rather, “lust” is used in natural law theory and moral theology as a technical term for sexual desire that is in some way disordered.  In what sense might it be “disordered”?  Aquinas writes:

A sin, in human acts, is that which is against the order of reason.  Now the order of reason consists in its ordering everything to its end in a fitting manner.  (Summa Theologiae II-II.153.2)

So, reasonable or well-ordered sexual desire is sexual desire that is “order[ed]… to its end” and “in a fitting manner.”  Thus, sexual desire is unreasonable or disordered if it is indulged in a way that frustrates its natural ends, or if it is indulged in an unfitting manner.

Disorder of the kind that involves frustration of the natural ends of sexual desire would in Aquinas’s view exist when, for example, such desire is directed at something other than a human being of the opposite sex, or when the sexual act is prevented from reaching its natural climax in insemination.  An example of sexual desire that is disordered in its manner would be adulterous sexual desire.  Suppose you find some person of the opposite sex other than your spouse attractive.  So far there is no sin.  Suppose that sexual thoughts and images about this person enter unbidden into your consciousness.  So far, still no sin.  But now suppose that instead of pushing these thoughts and images out of your mind and turning your attention to something else, you willingly and actively entertain them.  Now there is a sin of lust.  Finding this other person attractive is of itself perfectly natural, and in the right circumstances (being married to the person) there would be nothing wrong with letting this attraction draw you into sexual fantasy and intense arousal.  But because you are not married to the person and are married to someone else, circumstances make such fantasy and arousal disordered and sinful. 

For present purposes, though, I will put to one side questions about what sorts of desire and behavior, specifically, count as lustful or disordered.  Controversies over the natural law position on extra-marital sex, homosexuality, contraception, etc. are not to the present point.  (I have addressed those matters in other places, such as here.)  For our topic here is primarily not lust itself but rather the “daughters” or effects of lust -- the way in which sexual desire that is disordered tends to bring further moral disorders in its wake.

One more preliminary note: To say that some further moral disorder is an effect of lust is not to say that it invariably and fully follows from lust.  We are talking here about tendencies.  The longer and more thoroughly someone’s sexual desires are disordered, the more likely he is to fall into the other moral disorders Aquinas speaks of.  But if sexual desire is less thoroughly disordered, or if the disorder is counteracted by efforts to correct it, then naturally the secondary disorders are less likely to follow, or will not be as great as they otherwise would be.

The daughters of lust

Of the eight “daughters of lust,” the first four concern the intellect and the last four the will.  The first “daughter” or effect is what Aquinas calls “blindness of mind,” whereby the “simple [act of] understanding, which apprehends some end as good… is hindered by lust.”  What Aquinas has in mind here can be understood as follows.  The intellect has as its natural end or final cause the grasp of truth.  Truth, however, is a “transcendental,” as is goodness, and the transcendentals are convertible with one another.  That is to say, truth and goodness are really the same thing looked at from different points of view.  Hence the intellect is no less naturally directed toward the grasp of the good as it is toward the grasp of truth.  (See pp. 31-36 of Aquinas for discussion of the transcendentals.) 

Now, when, for whatever reason, we take pleasure in some thing or activity, we are strongly inclined to want to think that it is good, even if it is not good; and when, for whatever reason, we find some idea attractive, we are strongly inclined to want to think that it is true and reasonable, even if it is neither.  Everyone knows this; you don’t have to be a Thomist to see that much.  The habitual binge drinker or cocaine snorter takes such pleasure in his vice that he refuses to listen to those who warn him that he is setting himself up for serious trouble.  The ideologue is so in love with a pet idea that he will search out any evidence that seems to confirm it while refusing to consider all the glaring evidence against it.  The talentless would-be actor or writer is so enamored of the prospect of wealth and fame that he refuses to see that he’d be better advised to pursue some other career.  And so forth.  That taking pleasure in what is in fact bad or false can impair the intellect’s capacity to see what is good and true is a familiar fact of everyday life.

Now, there is no reason whatsoever why things should be any different where sex is concerned.  Indeed -- and this is part of Aquinas’s point -- precisely because sexual pleasure is unusually intense, it is even more likely than other pleasures are to impair our ability to perceive what is true and good when what we take pleasure in is something that is in fact bad.  In particular, habitually indulging one’s desire to carry out sexual acts that are disordered will tend to make it harder and harder for one to see that they are disordered.  For one thing, the pleasure a person repeatedly takes in those acts will give the acts the false appearance of goodness; for another, the person will be inclined to look for reasons to regard the acts as good or at least harmless, and disinclined to look for, or give a dispassionate hearing to, reasons to think them bad.  Hence indulgence in disordered sexual behavior has a tendency to impair one’s ability to perceive the true and the good, particularly in matters of sexual morality.  In short, sexual vice makes you stupid.

Even here you don’t need to be a Thomist to see that much.  Everyone knows that overindulgence in sexual pleasure can blind someone to the likely bad effects of such indulgence.  In particular, everyone is familiar with examples like that of the lecherous boss or teacher who sexually pursues subordinates or students despite the risks to his family or career, the woman who deludes herself into thinking that the married man she is having an affair with will leave his wife and marry her, the pornography user who refuses to admit that he is addicted, and so on. 

Of course, there are lots of things the Thomist regards as sexually disordered which many people these days do not regard as disordered.  In part this is, from a Thomist point of view, a consequence of widespread intellectual error.  For when the general metaphysical framework underlying traditional natural law theory -- essentialism, teleological realism, and so forth -- is properly understood, it is pretty obvious that the general natural law approach to sexual morality is perfectly reasonable, and indeed pretty hard to avoid, given that metaphysical framework.  Moreover, the framework itself is not only perfectly defensible, but also (as I have argued at length) pretty hard to avoid when properly understood.  The trouble is that in contemporary intellectual life most people know nothing of, or at best know only crude caricatures of, that metaphysics and of the traditional natural law theory that rests on it.  Hence they fail to understand the rational foundations of traditional sexual morality.

But the Thomist is bound to judge that mere intellectual error is not the only problem.  For it’s not just that people in contemporary Western society commonly disagree, at an intellectual level, with the natural law theorist’s judgments about what is disordered.  It’s that they commonly act in ways that natural law theory says are disordered.  And if such behavior has a tendency to impair one’s capacity to perceive what is true and good, especially where sex is concerned, then it follows that widespread rejection of traditional sexual morality is bound to have as much to do with the sort of cognitive corruption that Aquinas calls “blindness of mind” as it does with the making of honest intellectual mistakes.  That people who don’t behave in accordance with traditional sexual moral norms also don’t believe that these norms have any solid intellectual foundation is thus in no way surprising.  On the contrary, that’s exactly what natural law theory itself predicts will happen.

It is in light of this fact that we need to evaluate the refusal of some contemporary academic philosophers even to consider arguments in defense of traditional sexual morality.  Those who take this attitude claim that such arguments need not be taken seriously because they are mere expressions of “bigotry.”  Now, one problem with this position is that it is manifestly fallacious.  It either begs the question, since whether traditional sexual morality really is “bigoted” rather than rationally justifiable is precisely what is at issue; or it is a fallacious ad hominem, an attempt to dismiss the arguments on the basis of the purportedly disreputable motivations of those who put them forward. 

Another problem, though, is that this strategy of dismissing the arguments for traditional sexual morality as mere rationalizations of “bigotry” can be stalemated by the counter-accusation that those who reject traditional sexual morality suffer from what Aquinas calls “blindness of mind.”  The traditional moralist might respond: “Of course you would dismiss the arguments as mere bigotry!  That’s because your intellect has been so clouded by sexual vice that you cannot even see what is good and true where sex is concerned, and don’t even want to try to see it!”

Of course, if the Thomist left it at that and merely accused the other side of blindness of mind, he too would be guilty of begging the question or of a fallacious ad hominem.  What that shows, though, is that there is simply no rational way to avoid engaging in debate with those with whom you disagree on the subject of sexual morality.  If the defender of traditional sexual morality is to avoid resorting to a mere question-begging ad hominem, then he has to give arguments for his position and to answer the arguments of the other side.  And if the critic of traditional sexual morality is to avoid resorting to a mere question-begging ad hominem, then he too has to give arguments for his position and to answer the arguments of the other side.  It is the side that merely flings abuse at its opponents and refuses to engage in debate that is the truly bigoted side

But I digress.  The other three “daughters of lust” that concern the intellect follow straightforwardly from blindness of mind.  The second is what Aquinas calls “rashness,” which concerns the way disordered sexual desire hinders “counsel about what is to be done for the sake of the end.”  What Aquinas means here is that just as pleasure in what is disordered can blind us to the true ends of our sexual faculties, so too can it blind us to the means to achieving those ends. 

The third daughter of lust is what Aquinas calls “thoughtlessness,” and what he appears to have in mind is a failure of the intellect even to attend to ends and means in the first place.  In other words, whereas “blindness of mind” involves the intellect’s attending to the question of the ends of sex but getting them wrong, and “rashness” involves the intellect’s attending to the question of the means of achieving those ends and getting those wrong too, “thoughtlessness” involves the intellect’s not even bothering with the question of what ends and means are proper.  The “thoughtless” man simply pursues the disordered pleasures to which he has become addicted in something like a sub-rational way, “mindlessly” as it were.  His intellectual activity vis-à-vis sex no longer rises even to the level of rationalization.

The fourth daughter of lust is “inconstancy.”  Here the idea seems to be that even when the lustful person is not utterly sunk in “blindness of mind,” “rashness,” and “thoughtlessness” and thus still has some grasp of the proper ends and means vis-à-vis sex, that grasp is nevertheless tenuous.  The pleasure of disordered sexual behavior constantly diverts the intellect’s attention, so that what is truly good is not consistently perceived or pursued.

Now, for Aquinas, will follows upon intellect, and thus, unsurprisingly, the daughters of lust include four disorders of the will in addition to the four disorders of the intellect.  Aquinas describes the fifth and sixth daughters of lust as follows:

One is the desire for the end, to which we refer "self-love," which regards the pleasure which a man desires inordinately, while on the other hand there is "hatred of God," by reason of His forbidding the desired pleasure.

“Self-love,” it seems to me, can be understood as follows.  The “thoughtless” person is entirely sunk in his disordered sexual pleasures.  The person manifesting “blindness of mind” and “rashness” is also sunk in disordered sexual pleasure, but has managed to cobble together a network of rationalizations for his pursuit of these disordered pleasures.   Either way, though, the lustful person’s focus has turned inward, on the self and its own pleasures and intellectual constructions, rather than outward, toward what is actually good and true.  The mind corrupted by lust wants to make reality conform to itself, rather than to make itself conform to reality.  Hence the very idea that there is such a thing as a natural, objective moral order, especially where sex is concerned, becomes unbearable to the lustful person. 

The sequel, naturally, is what Aquinas calls “hatred of God.”  For God is Being Itself, and since being, like truth and goodness, is a transcendental, it follows that God is also Truth Itself and Goodness Itself.  These are all just different ways of conceptualizing the same one divine reality.  Thus, to hate what is in fact true and good is ipso facto to hate what is in fact God.  Of course, the person lost in disordered sexual desire might claim to love God.  If such a person knows he is lost in disordered desire and seeks to be freed from it, this love is sincere.  He still has some perception of what is truly good and wants to strengthen his grasp of it and his ability to pursue it.  But suppose the person loves his disordered desires, hates those who would call him away from indulging those desires, and refuses to take seriously the suggestion that such indulgence is contrary to the divine will.  Then his purported love of God is bogus.  It is not really God that he loves at all, but rather an idol of his own construction. 

The last two daughters of lust are what Aquinas calls “love of this world” and “despair of a future world.”  Now, for Aquinas a human being qua rational animal has both corporeal powers (namely our animal powers of nutrition, growth, reproduction, sensation, appetite, and locomotion) and the incorporeal powers of intellect and will.  It is the latter, higher powers that make our souls immortal and destined for a life beyond the present one.  Since our animal powers, and the pleasure associated with their exercise, are natural to us, there is nothing wrong with our loving these things.  But by “love of this world” what Aquinas has in mind is an excessive love of these things.  Disordered sexual pleasure, by virtue of its intensity, has a tendency to turn us away from the goods of the intellect.  In part this is because such pleasure blinds us to what the intellect would otherwise see to be true and good, but also in part because even where the lustful person can still perceive truth and goodness, its pursuit is difficult since the pleasure he might take in it is so much less intense than the disordered sexual pleasure to which he is in thrall.

Naturally, then, the lustful person is bound to be uninterested in the next life, and disinclined to do what is needed to secure his future well-being within it.  It will seem cold, abstract, and dull compared to what he has set his heart on in this life.  And thus it is no surprise that Christian theologians have traditionally emphasized the dangers sexual sins pose to one’s immortal soul.  This is not because such sins are the worst sins -- they are not -- but rather because the pleasure associated with them makes them very easy to fall into and, if they become habitual, very difficult to get out of.  (Churchmen who want to downplay the significance of sexual sins in the name of compassion are thus acting in a way that is in fact anything but compassionate.)

The opposite extreme

So far we have been talking about sins of excess where sexual pleasure is concerned.  But it is very important to keep in mind that here as in other areas of human life, there are disorders of deficiency as well as disorders of excess.  Speaking of pleasure in general, Aquinas writes:

Whatever is contrary to the natural order is vicious.  Now nature has introduced pleasure into the operations that are necessary for man's life.  Wherefore the natural order requires that man should make use of these pleasures, in so far as they are necessary for man's well-being, as regards the preservation either of the individual or of the species.  Accordingly, if anyone were to reject pleasure to the extent of omitting things that are necessary for nature's preservation, he would sin, as acting counter to the order of nature.  And this pertains to the vice of insensibility. (Summa Theologiae II-II.142.1)

Aquinas immediately goes on to note that it is possible to forsake pleasure in a way that is not vicious, as when one chooses celibacy for the sake of the priesthood or religious life.  There are also unusual cases where even spouses might agree to abstain from sex for spiritual reasons.  But these are not (or should not be) cases where sexual pleasure is rejected as bad, but rather cases where it is regarded it as good but nevertheless forsaken for the sake of something even better.  And the normal course of human affairs is for people to marry, and when they marry to have sexual relations.  That means that sexual pleasure is simply a normal part of ordinary human life.  That is inevitable given that we are, by nature, as much corporeal and animal creatures as rational ones. 

A “vice of insensibility” vis-à-vis sexual pleasure would, accordingly, plausibly be manifest in a marriage where one spouse refuses to make love, or does so only grudgingly, or does so willingly but with complete lack of interest, the way one might without protest agree to do the dishes or take out the trash.  (Of course, spouses are sometimes ill, or tired, or stressed out, or otherwise just not in the mood and thus would rather not have sex.  There’s nothing necessarily wrong with that.  The problem is when one spouse exhibits a habitual aversion to or disinterest in sex.) 

Just as the will might be insufficiently drawn toward sexual pleasure, so too can the intellect take too negative a view of it.  For example, some Christian theologians of earlier centuries were suspicious of sexual pleasure, and erroneously regarded it as something that attends sexual intercourse only as a result of original sin.  Aquinas rejected this view, and in the centuries since his time, natural law theorists, moral theologians, and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church took an increasingly more positive view of sexual pleasure as nature’s way of facilitating the procreative and unitive ends of sex.

So just what is the deal with sex, anyway?  Why are we so prone to extremes where it is concerned?  The reason, I would say, has to do with our highly unusual place in the order of things.  Angels are incorporeal and asexual, creatures of pure intellect.  Non-human animals are entirely bodily, never rising above sensation and appetite, and our closest animal relatives reproduce sexually.  Human beings, as rational animals, straddle this divide, having as it were one foot in the angelic realm and the other in the animal realm.  And that is, metaphysically, simply a very odd position to be in.  It is just barely stable, and sex makes it especially difficult to maintain.  The unique intensity of sexual pleasure and desire, and our bodily incompleteness qua men and women, continually remind us of our corporeal and animal nature, pulling us “downward” as it were.  Meanwhile our rationality continually seeks to assert its control and pull us back “upward,” and naturally resents the unruliness of such intense desire.  This conflict is so exhausting that we tend to try to get out of it by jumping either to one side of the divide or the other.  But this is an impossible task and the result is that we are continually frustrated.  And the supernatural divine assistance that would have remedied this weakness in our nature and allowed us to maintain an easy harmony between rationality and animality was lost in original sin

So, behaviorally, we have a tendency to fall either into prudery or into sexual excess.  And intellectually, we have a tendency to fall either into the error of Platonism -- treating man as essentially incorporeal, a soul trapped in the prison of the body -- or into the opposite error of materialism, treating human nature as entirely reducible to the corporeal.  The dominance of Platonism in early Christian thought is perhaps the main reason for its sometimes excessively negative attitude toward sexual pleasure, and the dominance of materialism in modern times is one reason for its excessive laxity in matters of sex.  The right balance is, of course, the Aristotelian-Thomistic position -- specifically, Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophical anthropology, which affirms that man is a single substance with both corporeal and incorporeal activities; and Aristotelian-Thomistic natural law theory, which upholds traditional sexual morality while affirming the essential goodness of sex and sexual pleasure.

422 comments:

  1. Question for folks once they put down the Rawls and had a cold shower:

    What stance do/did Naturalistic Natural Law theorists like Foot take on contraception and homosexuality? By rights it should be the same, but call me cynical if you must, for some reason I doubt it's going to be...

    @John,

    Oddly the Gluttony example is something I've brought up too. The instance you give would not provide a proper parallel in as much as the food would be less nutritious but not non-nutritious. If someone were to eat a big meal for pleasure and then take nux vomita to empty there stomach so that they might eat another such meal then that would be equivalent to contraception and immoral for the same reasons.

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  2. @Mr. Green:

    Thank you.

    @David M:

    "[T]his kind of isolated analysis is clearly inadequate from the perspective of moral analysis of related human acts."

    Of course it is; we've been in agreement on that from the beginning. As far as I know, your only disagreement with me was/is about whether keeping the lights turned off all the time was wrong specifically because it was a perversion of the faculty of sight, and even there I've agreed with you that it's in some way a frustration of that faculty.

    It still seems to me to be more like "abstinence" than like "contraception," if you know what I mean, but either way, I think Mr. Green is spot on about what's wrong with spending one's life in darkness.

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  3. David M,

    For one, seeing is unequivocally a process that we can turn off. (We will actually die if we don't turn it off regularly for appropriate periods of time.)

    I don't know. Does that really seem unequivocal? There's a couple problems - the idea that we're 'turning off our sight' when we go to sleep, and the idea that this is something we can just do.

    so why should such episodes be analyzed with a 'different teleology' - other than the obvious fact that the particular end in question happens to be different?

    I think the difference between what is an on-going, non-stop process and a voluntary act automatically requires a different approach to analyzing the teleology. I know the claim is that it's not a non-stop process, but I think the reply above illustrates a couple problem with the objection.

    but because they are involuntary (just as incipient sexual arousal is).

    Isn't the sexual act what's central here, not involuntary sexual arousal?

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  4. @Daniel:

    "What stance do/did Naturalistic Natural Law theorists like Foot take on contraception and homosexuality? By rights it should be the same, but call me cynical if you must, for some reason I doubt it's going to be..."

    And you'd be right, at least in Foot's case. I don't know what she thought about contraception, but she mentions almost as an aside (on p. 109 of Natural Goodness) that "we" have revised our former evaluations of masturbation and homosexuality. (I don't have the book yet; I just looked it up on Amazon and found that passage in the preview.)

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  5. "we've been in agreement on that from the beginning"

    I don't know, Scott. It seems to me that I've had to fight against some resistance from you in trying to establish the claim that your narrow analysis of the faculty of sight was an inadequate basis for moral analysis of uses of that faculty. But maybe I'm mistaken.

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  6. Crude: "There's a couple problems - the idea that we're 'turning off our sight' when we go to sleep, and the idea that this is something we can just do."

    Those are problems? Why?

    "I think the difference between what is an on-going, non-stop process and a voluntary act automatically requires a different approach to analyzing the teleology."

    Okay, but I dispute this. Sexual acts are "on-going" and "non-stop" for as long as they last too. And watching TV all day is too. That doesn't prevent them from being voluntary, nor does it introduce a fundamental change in the kind of teleological analysis required (that I can see).

    "Isn't the sexual act what's central here, not involuntary sexual arousal?"

    I'd have thought the latter was generally an intrinsic part of the former. How would you describe it?

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  7. David M,

    Those are problems? Why?

    You're dealing with a "voluntary process" that can and generally will literally be forced upon you, and which in general your ability to take voluntary is tremendously reliant on other factors, few of which are themselves voluntary. Of course, your will can play a role in sleep - you can stay awake - but it's starting to suffer then and there as a comparison.

    Further, you're dealing with an altered state of consciousness during which something happens to our memories. It's not clear the eyes are turned off in the relevant sense.

    Okay, but I dispute this. Sexual acts are "on-going" and "non-stop" for as long as they last too.

    What? Everything is non-stop then. Doesn't this seem like equivocation to you? Eating a is a non-stop process, insofar as we can imagine someone eating forever, I guess. But is that a reasonable way to cast it?

    Put another way: a person for whom sexual acts are 'on-going' in the way sight is 'on-going' would be in prison and regarded as broken. Do you disagree?

    I'd have thought the latter was generally an intrinsic part of the former. How would you describe it?

    I don't see how the latter 'generally being an intrinsic part of the former' really makes it relevant here, so I'm not sure what you're asking in turn.

    Are you saying sexual acts aren't voluntary either? Or that sexual acts are no more voluntary than sexual desire is?

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  8. @David M:

    "But maybe I'm mistaken."

    I think you are. I've never claimed anywhere that my "analysis of the faculty of sight," whatever that is, was an adequate basis for moral analysis of uses of that faculty; in fact I've specifically acknowledged otherwise several times.

    What I said, and would still say with some modification, is that the moral problem of sitting in perpetual darkness and never exercising one's faculty of vision is that we're failing to exercise a normal, natural faculty, not that we're perverting or positively misusing it—at least not in the sense at issue in contraception.

    You might also want to recall how the question came up and remember what a limited claim I was making in the first place. It had nothing to do with sitting in perpetual darkness; I was pointing out what I still think is an important disanalogy between wearing sunglasses indoors and using a condom. Wearing sunglasses indoors may be morally problematic for other reasons including the ones you've noted, but I don't think positively frustrating the faculty of vision is among them.

    But if you want to reply to Anonymous that wearing sunglasses indoors is just like wearing a condom and natural law forbids both, be my guest.

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  9. …and natural law forbids both for the same reasons, be my guest.

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  10. I have a though experiment which goes some of the way to encapsulating my concerns about Natural Law

    Let us allow that zombies are metaphysically possible. Now imagine a zombie in the form of a beautiful, healthy young maiden

    She is in every way biologically identical to a normal human woman: she eats, she sleeps she speaks, she responds reasonably to questions, she shows affection - but there's nothing on the inside, no intentionality, no qualia, no self-consciousness: the inner theatre is dark. Yet being biologically identical she is capable of bearing normal (ensouled) children, nursing them and to all outward appearances caring for them. Now if some man undertook sex with this being, knowing fully what she was, what would the moral status of this act be? Bear in mind that she is capable of fulfilling all the ends of the sexual act.

    The only problem I can see this presenting on Natural Law grounds is one of consent.

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  11. (I am the "Sunglasses" Anonymous, so if anyone cares to respond, you can call me that to eliminate confusion.)

    I think it's a fine point from Mr. Green that it is the whole person, rather than any faculty, that is the only focus of moral analysis on which the natural law view is intelligible. This is especially true for those of us who are not yet natural law theorists.

    This is why I think perverted faculties arguments almost always locate the immorality in the wrong place. To refer back to an earlier conversation, the reason bestiality is wrong isn't that it perverts the reproductive end of the sexual organs, it's because it is degrading to the entire human nature of the person who engages in it. I think even an atheist can see that much, and I think that's the source of why the atheist would sense that the act was morally wrong, even if he couldn't quite explain why.

    I think atheists might see a bit more hazily why masturbation and homosexuality, when compared to loving, procreative, lifelong Christian marriage, might also seem, if not degrading to human dignity, at least a falling short of its full potential.

    However, I cannot see how a married couple's use of contraception, so long as they are open to life, constitutes a degradation of their essential human dignity. This is where natural law theorists lose everyone else on the planet. Their analysis here seems to fail both on the level of individual faculties and the level of the whole person.

    And the fact that NFP is taken to be morally acceptable for Catholics, while artificial contraception is not, merely compounds the confusion for the uninitiated. The cases seem to be morally identical. In both cases, the couple is deliberately trying to have sex in a way that minimizes the possibility of pregnancy. In both cases there is a(n)(almost identical) finite probability of pregnancy. So long as abortion is as off the table for the couple using contraception as it is for the couple using NFP, I strain to spot the moral difference.

    I therefore would go further than Brandon. It's not just that perverted faculties arguments are weak cases for natural law ethics, but actually analysis at that level leads to what those of us outside the natural law tradition would regard as clear mistakes in moral reasoning.

    Why do natural law theorists believe that artificial contraception is always inherently evil, but that the case against slavery is more murky? I would argue it follows from being unable to see the forest of humanity for the trees of individual faculties. It may be difficult to figure out exactly what faculty slavery positively frustrates, but it's easy to see how both being a slave and being a slave owner degrades essential human dignity.

    At least, that's how an ignorant outsider sees the situation.

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  12. Crude,
    I don't think you're grasping the distinctions I've made. Anyway, you can literally avert or close your eyes from a given act of seeing, can't you? What is this "literally forced upon you" business? Lust, too, can literally force itself upon you in the relevant sense, can't it? It doesn't mean there are no appropriately circumscribable voluntary acts, just because there are all sorts of elements that are partially generative and constitutive of those acts which are not voluntary.

    "What? Everything is non-stop then."
    Sure. For as long as it lasts. So what?

    "Doesn't this seem like equivocation to you? Eating a is a non-stop process, insofar as we can imagine someone eating forever, I guess. But is that a reasonable way to cast it?"

    How is that even relevant to my argument? Anyway, we cannot reasonably imagine someone eating continuously forever, any more than we can reasonably imagine someone achieving an ever-lasting act of seeing. Human nature excludes such possibilities.

    "Put another way: a person for whom sexual acts are 'on-going' in the way sight is 'on-going' would be in prison and regarded as broken. Do you disagree?"

    Again, I think this is irrelevant. It so happens that the appropriate natural rhythms that apply to seeing and sexual acts are different. But so what? I don't see what point you're trying to make. Obviously I haven't argued that there are no differences of any kind between acts of seeing and sex acts.

    "Are you saying sexual acts aren't voluntary either? Or that sexual acts are no more voluntary than sexual desire is?"

    I'm sure I said neither of those things. I said: "I'd have thought the latter (involuntary sexual arousal) was generally an intrinsic part of the former (the sexual act)." And I meant to ask how you would describe the relation between these two notions/things.

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  13. Scott: "What I said, and would still say with some modification, is that the moral problem of sitting in perpetual darkness and never exercising one's faculty of vision is that we're failing to exercise a normal, natural faculty, not that we're perverting or positively misusing it—at least not in the sense at issue in contraception."

    I know you've said that Scott. But what have been your grounds for saying that? You've contradicted yourself on this point. In fact, your vision is still used in the dark, as we've agreed: you are still 'seeing' the darkness, seeing that there is no light in your environment (unless, of course, you're sleeping).

    Anyway, this: "But if you want to reply to Anonymous that wearing sunglasses indoors is just like wearing a condom and natural law forbids both, be my guest," I think you are well aware, is a silly suggestion for anyone to make who has actually been following my reasoning.

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  14. A general comment on the matter of eyes: it's not clear that the eyes stop seeing simply because they're covered by eyelids. They may no longer see whatever was previously observed, but they still see the back of the eyelids.

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  15. Since you could only know that the zombie maiden was a zombie maiden if God himself told you (or some other divine messenger), I'd ask God if you can marry and bed her or not. If He's gone out of the way to point out that she's a zombie, the safe assumption might be that God is recommending that you to marry some other fair maiden.

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  16. @Daniel:

    "Bear in mind that she is capable of fulfilling all the ends of the sexual act."

    I don't think "she" is, though. If "she" is really a philosophical zombie, then there's no "she" in there and it can't love the man who's having sex with it.

    A deeper problem, I think, is that if philosophical zombies were genuinely possible, the foundations of natural law itself might be at risk.

    @David M:

    "You've contradicted yourself on this point. In fact, your vision is still used in the dark, as we've agreed: you are still 'seeing' the darkness, seeing that there is no light in your environment (unless, of course, you're sleeping)."

    As we've also expressly agreed, there's more to the faculty of vision than just using one's eyes, and we're clearly not making full use of it if all we're doing is sitting in perpetual darkness. If you keep that in mind, perhaps you'll change your opinion about whether I've contradicted myself.

    Or perhaps you won't. Either way, I've pursued this side path as far as I care to.

    "Anyway, this…, I think you are well aware, is a silly suggestion for anyone to make who has actually been following my reasoning."

    Of course it is; that's why I made it. Since my deliberately silly suggestion very obviously isn't your point, I don't know why you're still picking away at me long after I've agreed with the point you actually are making.

    I'm done now. If you just want to argue, do it with someone else.

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  17. "it's easy to see how both being a slave and being a slave owner degrades essential human dignity."

    I think you mean: "it's easy to get people to assent to the proposition that being a slave and being a slave owner degrades essential human dignity." But the matter of comparing ease of getting people to assent to various propositions is governed be very different considerations from the matter of getting people to see the validity of various propositions. What people will readily assent to is largely governed by cultural conditioning. What people can actually 'see' is a much trickier matter.

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  18. I don't think "she" is, though. If "she" is really a philosophical zombie, then there's no "she" in there and it can't love the man who's having sex with it.

    But if the end of this all is reproduction what does that actually matter? I'm not being sarcastic hear I'm genuinely interested.

    A deeper problem, I think, is that if philosophical zombies were genuinely possible, the foundations of natural law itself might be at risk.

    I was thinking about this. Surely though here could be a being with a Vegetative or Sensitive Soul (when the latter is not taken to imply consciousnesses)that 'reacts' under certain external stimulation in a way that resembles normal human communication? Of course it would require a separate act of Divine Creation. Perhaps sex with such a creature might be deemed bestiality as it isn't even metaphysically Rational but then again it can reproduce sucessfuly.

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  19. "In both cases, the couple is deliberately trying to have sex..."

    Right; isn't this the oldest argument in the book? The obvious reply is: no, the NFP couple deliberately *avoids* having sex. They forego the act, rather than change its inherent nature.

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  20. David M,

    Anyway, you can literally avert or close your eyes from a given act of seeing, can't you? What is this "literally forced upon you" business?

    I'm still seeing, full stop, when doing both of things. Are you really not seeing (ha ha) what I mean here by "literally forced upon you" with regards to this?

    Lust, too, can literally force itself upon you in the relevant sense, can't it?

    Not as near as I can see, certainly not in an unequivocal sense. But shoot me some examples, since I'm open to that here. Are you going to cite brain-damage cases?

    Sure. For as long as it lasts. So what?

    So I get the impression we're playing with words a little much here, such that 'unequivocally the same as...' is no longer clearly the case.

    Anyway, we cannot reasonably imagine someone eating continuously forever, any more than we can reasonably imagine someone achieving an ever-lasting act of seeing.

    No, I don't think they're equivalent. I think we can regard someone's sight as being non-stop in a way that eating is not. I pointed out the problems I saw with your talk about sleep, etc. I think sight is far closer to the constant of (say) 'having a beating heart' than it is to 'the act of eating' and certainly 'sex'.

    I mean, there is one sense I -can- 'stop my sight' I suppose, but closing my eyes won't work, and 'going to sleep' doesn't seem to either work, or be quite as voluntary. So I'd need a spork.

    Come to think of it, I can stop other people's sight in the same way. Sporks don't get enough credit.

    Obviously I haven't argued that there are no differences of any kind between acts of seeing and sex acts.

    Sure, but I think the one comparison you're making here doesn't hold.

    I'm sure I said neither of those things.

    I know. That's why I'm asking about your meaning and stance.

    As for their relation - 'more complicated than most tend to allow for'. And it depends on what kind of 'incipient arousal' we're talking about. What if I think we can cultivate fetishes - or diminish them?

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  21. Edit: 'hear' of course could be 'here'.

    @David,

    In which case we might just take the question back a level and ask could God command one to sleep with such a creature (God of course being unable to command immoral acts).

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  22. @Daniel:

    "But if the end of this all is reproduction what does that actually matter?"

    For humans and presumably for many subrational animals, sex also has a unitive end. One of the participants in your hypothetical act is human, and his partner is unable to fulfill that end.

    "Sensitive Soul (when the latter is not taken to imply consciousnesses)"

    I don't see how it can be taken otherwise. Surely knowledge and appetite are the very hallmarks of the sensitive soul, and they both imply at least perceptual awareness of the environment.

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  23. David:

    I take your point that people have not always seen that slavery was morally wrong, and that those who see this now see this more out of historical circumstance than moral reasoning.

    However, I would guess (and I'm not a philosopher or ethicist, so it's just a guess) that the wrongness of slavery is not something that's difficult to account for on most moral theories. I would guess that it's a more straightforward deduction from most other moral theories that fully-capable adult human beings simply cannot ever justifiably be considered the property of other people.

    Let me ask you all this: is it possible, on a natural law view, to simply see the perversion of a particular faculty as merely an indication, rather than demonstrative proof, that the entire person is being degraded in a morally significant way? On the natural law view, is it possible that not every perversion of faculties is a moral wrong, and that not every moral wrong is a perversion of faculties?

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  24. Right; isn't this the oldest argument in the book? The obvious reply is: no, the NFP couple deliberately *avoids* having sex. They forego the act, rather than change its inherent nature.

    No, couples who are perpetually abstinent avoid having sex. Couples using NFP are having sex, they are just having it in a way that's deliberately designed to avoid pregnancy.

    I'm not trying to minimize your perspective, I'm just telling you the moral difference between artificial contraception and NFP is utterly opaque from the outside.

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  25. Sunglasses Anon,

    FWIW, I'm sympathetic to your position on contraception - that is, I can't bring myself to agree with an absolute prohibition of it (though, on the other hand it seems obvious to me that a perfectly healthy couple who refuses to procreate altogether is confused about a very important purpose of their couplehood).

    Anyways you say something that I want to talk about, to help myself clear up some thoughts on a matte: "This is why I think perverted faculties arguments almost always locate the immorality in the wrong place. To refer back to an earlier conversation, the reason bestiality is wrong isn't that it perverts the reproductive end of the sexual organs, it's because it is degrading to the entire human nature of the person who engages in it. I think even an atheist can see that much, and I think that's the source of why the atheist would sense that the act was morally wrong, even if he couldn't quite explain why. "

    I think an account of why it is is degrading to the whole human person will include the end of the organs. Part of using those organs reasonably is bringing oneself into alignment with nature, not hubristically attempting to trump it with what is, in the end, just one's own submission to a base urge.

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  26. Sunglasses,

    I thought of something else...

    You use the phrase "degrading to human dignity"

    It is clear why degradation is an evil, even in the case of a radio signal it's a privative term. However, for it to have any sort of moral force, as in "don't do what is degrading to your or another's human dignity", we need to be able to unpack "human dignity". As you've just said it, however, it is awfully vague, and it would be surprising if you were able to make it more clear without an account of human nature (that is, of human being in terms of formal and final causes), or to make the "degrading" of that dignity intelligible without that degrading in some way involving a frustration or perversion of the relevant ends.

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  27. @Scott,

    I thought that the unitive function only exists for the reproductive though (with reproductive being understood in the broad sense as including caring for and rearing the offspring)? I was thinking of this paragraph from TLS:

    But from the point of view of biological final causes, all of this exists so that men and women will engage in the sexual act, so that it will result in ejaculation into the vagina, so that in turn offspring will be generated at least a certain percentage of the time the act is performed, and so that father and mother will be strengthened in their desire to stay together, which circumstance is (whether their personal intentions and thoughts nature's way of sustaining that union upon which children depend for their material and spiritual well-being. Every link in the chain has procreation as its final cause, whatever the intentions of the actors’

    Re the Sensitive Soul, I thought Oderberg questioned that the more traditional understanding you give in the case of lower animals like insects and such that (probably) lack phenomenal consciousness of the 'what's it like' type. Even if I'm wrong here (I may well be - I've only read RE piecemeal) I don't think it effects the impossibility or possibility question: the creature could just have a Vegetative Soul if that suffices for the Behavouristic reactions. I am pretty sure that such a being could not be metaphysically human though

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  28. @Daniel:

    "I thought that the unitive function only exists for the reproductive though (with reproductive being understood in the broad sense as including caring for and rearing the offspring)?"

    In the human participant it is. That doesn't mean it's not present, and it doesn't mean it doesn't matter if it goes unfulfilled as long as reproduction (however broadly understood) can take place. His genuine good as a human being can't be fulfilled by the hypothetical act in question, which is why natural law would rule it out.

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  29. My first sentence there would have made better sense had I written, "In the human participant that's true."

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  30. ...concerning "losing everyone else on the planet" on the matter of contraception, which appears to be a mere sociological fact, I think posting this is in order (the article contains a description of the change of attitude towards it, among other things):
    http://www.unz.org/Pub/Encounter-1990may-00009?View=PDF

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  31. Off topic, but I sat through a terrible lecture on the cosmological argument today. The professor stated that Aquinas believed the universe to be finite in the past, because it was incoherent for something to go back eternally.

    It was awful. I tried to give him the answers by asking questions. Unfortunately, now the majority of people in that class probably think that Aquinas' arguments are completely incoherent. I probably could've given a better lecture...

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  32. "The professor stated that Aquinas believed the universe to be finite in the past, because it was incoherent for something to go back eternally."

    Wow, that's wrong in pretty much every possible way.

    Even for the right argument(s), it gets things the wrong way round. Aquinas didn't e.g. argue that a per se causal series must have a first member because a backward-infinite such series is incoherent; he argued that a backward-infinite per se causal series is incoherent because such a series must have a first member.

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  33. No, couples who are perpetually abstinent avoid having sex. Couples using NFP are having sex, they are just having it in a way that's deliberately designed to avoid pregnancy.

    This I think misses the point that was being made. NFP, to the limited extent it looks like a contraceptive method at all, consists of avoiding sex during periods when one is most likely to conceive; temporary abstinence is no more problematic than perpetual abstinence, and nothing about temporary abstinence automatically changes the nature of sex at times when people actually have it. In particular cases it might, but nothing about it in itself requires it. (A common, even if not the most common, use of NFP is to increase one's chances of having children. This cannot be said at all of any intrinsically contraceptive method.) Acting so as to increase the chances that conceptions overall will be spaced apart (a common use of NFP), for instance, is a very different intention from trying to have sex without conceiving.

    Let me ask you all this: is it possible, on a natural law view, to simply see the perversion of a particular faculty as merely an indication, rather than demonstrative proof, that the entire person is being degraded in a morally significant way? On the natural law view, is it possible that not every perversion of faculties is a moral wrong, and that not every moral wrong is a perversion of faculties?

    I would say:

    (1)Perversion of faculty merely in itself cannot suffice on natural law terms to get us into the arena of moral wrong; to get natural law the ends in question have to be a matter of common good -- of creation or the human race, generally. This is why procreation -- a matter obviously relevant to common good -- comes up so often.

    (2) I don't think any natural law theorist is committed to the claim that all moral wrongs involve perversion of faculties in the strict sense used in perverted faculty arguments. All moral wrongs are in some way wrongs, of course, and so could in a very loose sense be considered all perversions of the faculty of reason; but this is generic. At least some wrongs -- those violating temperance, I think, are usually good examples -- consist not of perversion of faculties but of failure to act in proper circumstances, without any intrinsic inconsistency in the act itself (which is required for perverted faculty arguments).

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  34. @ Brandon

    I'm confused.
    Here's one bit that St. Thomas wrote on the subject:

    "Now it is good for everything to gain its end, and evil for it to be diverted from its due end. But as in the whole so also in the parts, our study should be that every part of man and every act of his may attain its due end. Now though the semen is superfluous for the preservation of the individual, yet it is necessary to him for the propagation of the species: while other excretions, such as excrement, urine, sweat, and the like, are needful for no further purpose: hence the only good that comes to man of them is by their removal from the body. But that is not the object in the emission of the semen, but rather the profit of generation, to which the union of the sexes is directed. But in vain would be the generation of man unless due nurture followed, without which the offspring generated could not endure. The emission of the semen then ought to be so directed as that both the proper generation may ensue and the education of the offspring be secured.
    Hence it is clear that every emission of the semen is contrary to the good of man, which takes place in a way whereby generation is impossible; and if this is done on purpose, it must be a sin. I mean a way in which generation is impossible in itself as is the case in every emission of the semen without the natural union of male and female: wherefore such sins are called ‘sins against nature.’ But if it is by accident that generation cannot follow from the emission of the semen, the act is not against nature on that account, nor is it sinful; the case of the woman being barren would be a case in point."

    Nowhere here does St. Thomas appeal to common good per se when he says "hence it's clear", at least, not explicitly.

    To me it seems Aquinas is saying that what is wrong here is the lack of perfection of the intentional act of the emission of semen.

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  35. I do realise Aquinas does speak of the common good when discussing matters concerning procreation - the institution of marriage and it's governance by divine and human law.
    But it does seem that 'sins against nature' are sins for separate reasons.

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  36. @Georgy Mancz:

    "Nowhere here does St. Thomas appeal to common good per se when he says 'hence it's clear', at least, not explicitly."

    It seems to me that he does so at least implicitly in saying that the semen "is necessary to him for the propagation of the species" (my emphases).

    "To me it seems Aquinas is saying that what is wrong here is the lack of perfection of the intentional act of the emission of semen."

    I think that's right, but part of the point is also that the propagation of the species is part of the good not only of the agent but of humans generally. Surely the "nurture" and "education" of offspring are not only in the interests of the father, but also those of the children and the entirety of society (the "species," what with our being social/political animals and all).

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  37. In other words, he seems to be saying/implying that the emission of (human) sperm has, as part of its natural function, the serving of a broad societal interest and that serving this interest is part of the good of the, er, emitter.

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  38. @Scott,

    In the human participant it is. That doesn't mean it's not present, and it doesn't mean it doesn't matter if it goes unfulfilled as long as reproduction (however broadly understood) can take place. His genuine good as a human being can't be fulfilled by the hypothetical act in question, which is why natural law would rule it out.

    Sorry if I'm being dense tonight but why should that by? If the unitive end is only a means to the true end, reproduction, then what does it matter if it's skipped?

    Hang on, didn't one of Ed's interpretations of Genesis involve the first humans mating with zombie creatures somewhat like the ones outlined?

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  39. @ Scott

    Makes sense.
    But why can't we then still say that the act is wrong precisely because the faculty is used in such a way that excludes it's perfection?
    That the 'contrariness' resides in the fact that an act by nature procreative is rendered sterile (and is 'unjustified', as it were)?
    Sorry if I'm being daft, but reading through this discussion I seem to have somehow lost grasp of the principle.

    I understand how procreation relates to the common good.
    What I don't understand is how the common good consideration makes the act immoral whereas the intentional lack in the act of exercising a power with intrinsic ends does not, which I take Brandon to be saying (again, I'm very confused, so sorry if I'm reading it wrong).

    @Daniel

    They weren't zombies, just brute humans, with no rational souls.

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  40. @Daniel:

    "If the unitive end is only a means to the true end, reproduction, then what does it matter if it's skipped?"

    I think your use of "only" here indicates the source of the problem. It's true that in the order of nature, the unitive end exists only because the procreative end does, but it's not therefore true that it doesn't exist as an end to be satisfied in its own right; the one isn't only a means to the other from the point of view of the animal (rational or otherwise) whose well-being is at stake. Married couples quite properly continue having sex well past their childbearing years.

    "Hang on, didn't one of Ed's interpretations of Genesis involve the first humans mating with zombie creatures somewhat like the ones outlined?"

    Yes (although they weren't "zombies," just subrational animals who were otherwise biologically human), but he also said the situation would have been less than morally ideal.

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  41. @Georgy Mancz:

    "But why can't we then still say that the act is wrong precisely because the faculty is used in such a way that excludes it's perfection?"

    I think we can. It's just that the perfection of the act also, by nature, serves the common good. The two aren't mutually exclusive but complementary.

    "What I don't understand is how the common good consideration makes the act immoral whereas the intentional lack in the act of exercising a power with intrinsic ends does not, which I take Brandon to be saying[.]"

    I'm probably not going to do Brandon justice here, but what I take him to mean is just that the frustration/perversion of a natural end isn't sufficient in and of itself to get us into the territory of morality proper. To return to the earlier example, sitting in complete darkness for your entire life would involve a failure to fulfill your own good, but although that would make it in a way wrong, it wouldn't qualify on that ground alone as immoral under natural law. It would have the latter status only if it were the case (as it probably is) that your failure to give full rein to your faculty of vision somehow affected the goods of other people and of society in general.

    One way of making the point, I think (though I don't know whether it would be Brandon's), would be to say that "ethics" is a broader term than "morality" and that not every exercise (or lack) of virtue is properly regarded as a strictly moral matter.

    Whether that's what Brandon has in mind or not, the one thing I'm sure he does have in mind is that procreation clearly does, by nature, involve the common good and so qualifies as a moral topic.

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  42. I wrote, as a possible way of understanding Brandon's point, that "not every exercise (or lack) of virtue is properly regarded as a strictly moral matter."

    It occurs to me that if that (or something like it) is the case, that might address Sunglasses Anonymous's concern that natural-law-based ethics makes moral mountains out of practical molehills.

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  43. Hi, Georgy,

    The basic idea can be put pretty straightforwardly: If a principle or conclusion of practical reason is not concerned with common good, it is not a law at all, and therefore cannot be part of natural law. (This follows directly from Aquinas's definition of law and the basic account of natural law in general.) Everything in natural law for human beings is concerned with the common good of human beings. (This includes even things like suicide. Suicide is not immoral simply because it is contrary to a person's own good; that would just make it an often bad idea. It is wrong because it is contrary to everyone's good, because each human being is a valuable good that is part of the shared good of the entire human race. Every suicide diminishes everyone, at least indirectly.) Now, of course, things may still be reasonable or unreasonable without actually violating natural law, but if they are morally required or morally prohibited, it can only because, and to the extent, and in the way, that they impact common good.

    Thus Scott is exactly right. One of the ways something can impact the common good of human beings is in terms of the preservation of the species. Thus, procreation, education and nurture of children, and even leaving your children an inheritance are all matters of moral concern because they are different ways in which actions can affect the common good by way of preserving humanity.

    Thus I would say, as Scott notes, that 'frustration of a faculty' doesn't get us into the territory of immorality. Every time we are frustrating some faculty, we can obviously identify some way in which it doesn't 'make sense', some good in light of which it is not reasonable; but not all of these will be immoral in themselves. (They may still be very indirectly immoral since unreasonableness in action is imprudent, and prudence is a matter of common good to human beings because reason is part of the common good of human beings. It could be that perversion of faculty guarantees that it would be at least immoral in this limited and indirect sense, but I don't know.) For the perversion of faculty to be immoral in itself it has to be in itself detrimental to common good in some way.

    I think the three kinds of good according to which Aquinas organizes precepts of natural law -- self-preservation, propagation of species, and reason -- are the three main ways in which he thinks actions are relevant to human common good. And, of course, this is where our contemporary crux is: Thomistic natural law theorists take sexuality to be a major part of the shared good of the entire human race, and thus to be shot through with matters of moral concern, although not all of equal importance or seriousness; whereas the modern tendency is to keep insisting that sexuality is entirely a matter of private good that is no one's business unless it harms others, for some very spare notion of 'harm'.

    (I would distinguish my main point from what Scott notes in his comment at 3:52, but, of course, he is right here, too, and it has to do with prudence making things indirectly a matter of moral concern, which I mentioned above. Things can be morally better or morally worse without being morally right or morally wrong in a strict sense, and that's the whole point of the virtue of prudence. It's also why the Catholic Church condemned rigorism/tutiorism -- in a sense, rigorists are those who treat every moral matter as a matter of strict right and wrong under natural law, whereas in reality we have to make virtuous judgment calls which may not be strictly right or wrong but only better or worse.)

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  44. @ Scott and Brandon

    Thank you!

    This reminds me of the way I used to explain personal sacrifices of soldiers in battle (also the 'perennial topic' of Amalekites): we humans are -for- the common good, after all.

    Come to think of it, I might have missed the difference here because I do not think sexuality is chiefly about the private good.

    So the account of why sins against nature are wrong would be something like the following: these acts are wrong because they directly involve the frustration of an end that deprives the act of it's perfection that ought to be there because of the common good, which the power abused is to serve?

    P.S.
    I think of rationality as a/an (moral?) obligation (the one behind all others), though, so I don't know how one is to escape the conclusion that intentional acts against prudence are at least slightly immoral (?). Now I need to make sure I'm not some sort of a condemned tutiorist. :)

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  45. Crude: "I'm still seeing, full stop, when doing both of things."

    But this full stop simply ignores the distinction which I want to insist upon: there's seeing and then there's seeing! There's intentional and there's autopilot/instinctive. A proper analysis of the faculty of seeing shouldn't conflate these.

    "Are you really not seeing (ha ha) what I mean here by "literally forced upon you" with regards to this?"

    No, I'm really not seeing it. Which (ha!) illustrates my point: the act of seeing (in the relevant sense) is not, generally speaking, something which is simply forced upon us.

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  46. David M.,

    But this full stop simply ignores the distinction which I want to insist upon: there's seeing and then there's seeing! There's intentional and there's autopilot/instinctive. A proper analysis of the faculty of seeing shouldn't conflate these.

    Perhaps you mean to draw a distinction between seeing and looking?

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  47. @Daniel: "In which case we might just take the question back a level and ask could God command one to sleep with such a creature (God of course being unable to command immoral acts)."

    It's a good question. If I dare be so bold as to speak for the First Cause of all things: Yes, he could. The nature of the (human) sexual act is a contingent, created thing. It is one aspect of human nature, which is also a contingent, created thing. The moral norms pertaining to human sex acts are a function of what is demanded for the flourishing of human nature. I would say that the absoluteness of those norms shouldn't exceed the absoluteness of the grounds from which those norms are derived. Therefore (skipping a few steps here), God could indeed command you to sleep with fair zombie maiden.

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  48. Re. natural law, ethics, and the common good: Isn't 'the private good' (the development of virtuous individuals) largely directly constitutive of 'the common good'? And isn't 'the common good' actually the common good directly and principally insofar as it fosters the development of 'the private good'?

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  49. Natural lawyers,

    The answer to this question is probably obvious to you. But how does this idea of a common good play out in relation to limited natural resources and overpopulation, and procreation as natural ends of sex?

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  50. Scott says,

    " ... I take him to mean is just that the frustration/perversion of a natural end isn't sufficient in and of itself to get us into the territory of morality proper. "


    Just so; unless you wish to drum a virtue ethics beat for the last man in the world.

    It's where we all wind up as kids when first trying to conceptualize how right and wrong work or are applied: "Yeah, but what if there were no other people around, how could you steal a turnip?"

    Strange that Brandon would have to point out here though, that teleology is not a comprehensive synonym for "natural law", and that human law based on natural law is a social act; and you to remind everyone that morals or customs (whether good or bad) assume an associative relationship with other roughly equivalent or complementary agents of some kind.

    It probably pays to have someone with an actual background in the law, or legal studies, in these discussions.

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  51. @ Georgy Mancz,

    “Nowhere here does St. Thomas appeal to common good per se when he says "hence it's clear", at least, not explicitly.”

    I disagree because in your quote Saint Thomas writes:

    “though the semen is superfluous for the preservation of the individual, yet it is necessary to him for the propagation of the species”

    “for the propagation of the species” would certainly be in the category of the common good and an appeal to the same.

    And again:

    “But that is not the object in the emission of the semen, but rather the profit of generation, to which the union of the sexes is directed. But in vain would be the generation of man unless due nurture followed, without which the offspring generated could not endure.”

    So the whole logic seems to me to be derivative of the common good or the good of man (as a species) rather than the individual’s good. Indeed, this seems to be exactly the error we are inclined to when we make sex about pleasure (and so ourselves) and the consequent evils for man that follows (fatherlessness/poor nurturing, divorces/broken families, collapsing birth rates, etc.).

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  52. @ John West

    “Natural lawyers,

    The answer to this question is probably obvious to you. But how does this idea of a common good play out in relation to limited natural resources and overpopulation, and procreation as natural ends of sex?”

    It would involve sexual responsibility even to the point of abstinence. I mean it’s pretty obvious that if my fathering a child deliberate while knowing that doing so would really throw the whole human race into peril or possible extinction, then such an act would be immoral. And this is somewhat comical when you have the progressive libertine advocating sexual license and recklessness whilst worried that the human race is on the verge of catastrophe because we are supposedly overpopulated. He does not see that sexual license and sexual restraint and responsibility are incompatible. Presumably, however, the modern, enlightened Progressive would advocate child murder to safeguard against extinction – or perhaps slaughtering those seen as expendable, such as the sick or infirm, the retired or elderly, etc., only slaughtering children when he thinks more need to die to keep a nice environmental equilibrium.

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  53. Sunglasses here again.

    Firstly, thank you Brandon for all your posts, they have been excellent.

    Secondly, as John West seems to have taken a point I was going to raise about overpopulation, I want to raise the issue of the AIDS pandemic in Africa, in light of Brandon's comments in favor of prudence and against rigorism.

    In the situation of the AIDS pandemic in Africa, it would seem treating condom use as an intrinsic evil is a triumph of rigorism over prudence. If preventing condom use results in a net loss of life in a given region, how could this be for the common good? I'd guess you'd suggest that life-long abstinence is the answer for HIV or AIDS infected individuals, but I recall passages from Aquinas that it is contrary to the common good to require more virtue from a person than he is capable of giving, as this will have the tendency to discourage him from attempting pursuit the moral life. Surely, the prospect of forced lifelong abstinence might have the effect of turning millions away from the Catholic faith.

    I simply find it difficult to believe, given the live possibility of its severely depopulating a region, and resulting in those living being turned against the Catholic faith, that the Catholic position on condom use is anything like prudent.

    It may be replied that (unperforated) condom use is inherently evil, and we are not allowed to pursue inherently evil means even to a good end. But if an invading army were causing a similar level of harm in the region, the natural law tradition of just war would positively affirm the morality of waging war against that army. So, according to natural law, it would be for the common good to kill already existing human beings to prevent the death and depravity of millions, but it would not be for the common good to use condoms to achieve a similar result.

    This seems less like prudence, and more like madness.

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  54. @ Anon

    If preventing condom use results in a net loss of life in a given region, how could this be for the common good?

    Because, to show that an act is permissible, it is not sufficient to show that there it has the smallest net loss of life (or some other metric). To take the famous case, it would violate the common good to hang an innocent man, even if hanging him would stop a crowd from rioting.

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  55. Sunglasses again:

    It would involve sexual responsibility even to the point of abstinence

    Again, if prudence is the head of all the virtues, how could this be so? The unitive end of sex would be sacrificed for a generation or more, and the requirement of lifelong chastity would turn millions from the faith.

    Presumably, however, the modern, enlightened Progressive would advocate child murder to safeguard against extinction

    This is not a recent trend, or a trend associated with any particular philosophical or political tradition. Prior to the advent of effective contraception and abortificients, infanticide was widely practiced, even in the Christian West. I've seen studies (which I can't locate links to at the moment, but I will provide links soon) that puts the historic global infanticide rate at 15-20%, which is almost identical to the current global abortion rate of around 20%.

    Infanticide is not something recently dreamed up by Progressives, nor is it merely a consequence of libertine attitudes about sex. It's just what human beings do when they don't have the means to prevent themselves from having more children than they can afford.

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  56. "It's just what human beings do when they don't have the means to prevent themselves from having more children than they can afford."

    I suppose you could mount this argument, if you had the data to show that contraception affected these rates. Otherwise it strikes me as utopian thinking - "if we can create a situation in which everyone has access to contraception we will have less unwanted children" or something like that. I'm not aware of any evidence that an increased availability of contraception has increased utility in the world in a way that would make this line of argument convincing.

    Another thing to note is, as Greg points out, you can't give an objection to something that you believe to be imprudent when that objection itself has entailments that are repugnant to reason (e.g. the condemning of the innocent). An objection has to be valid and sound to be a worthy objection.

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  57. putting the contraception argument another way...

    Contraception, in order for it to work requires a certain level of virtue, if you will. The one using it must be disciplined, must take it on time, must take it regularly. Contraceptive behavior, to work, must be a sort of habit and that habit has to be cultivated well in order for the contraception to be effective.

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  58. Because, to show that an act is permissible, it is not sufficient to show that there it has the smallest net loss of life (or some other metric).

    But we're not talking about a small net loss, we're talking about entire countries being depopulated. We're talking about the creation of an entire generation of orphans, who turn to crime and war as a means of support in the absence of parents. We're talking about tens of millions of people being turned away from the Catholic specifically because of the Church's position on condoms in AIDS-ravaged portions of Africa.

    To take the famous case, it would violate the common good to hang an innocent man, even if hanging him would stop a crowd from rioting.

    Firstly, this is an odd case for a Christian to make. Clearly, according to Christian tradition, it does not violate the common good for one innocent man to be executed for the sins of all others.

    Secondly, and consequently, the paradigm case of Christ suggests that what can be allowed for the common good is largely determined by the scale of the good produced. I would argue that the scale of preventing a continent from being depopulated is large enough to show that prudence is on the side of permitting condom use.

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  59. @ Anon

    But we're not talking about a small net loss, we're talking about entire countries being depopulated.

    I am not sure what your point is, if there is not some principle to which you are appealing.

    If the point doesn't hold for small populations, then you would seem simply to be appealing to intuition. In that case we can just scale the problem. Let 10 persons be hanged to save 1000, 100 to save 10000, 1000 to save 100000, etc. The Catholic is never going to say, OK, it's time to hang the innocents. (If you want we don't have to scale the number of innocents hanged. The difference in this case is merely formal since we can stipulate that there are not other consequences.)

    Firstly, this is an odd case for a Christian to make. Clearly, according to Christian tradition, it does not violate the common good for one innocent man to be executed for the sins of all others.

    You are saying that Christians believe that Christ's crucifixion did not violate the common good? I am not sure you know what the common good is.

    Catholics believe that God brings good out of evil. Sure. But they wouldn't suggest that we should stage martyrdoms (in such a way that no one knows) in order to achieve the positive benefits that we know God will bring out of them.

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  60. I suppose you could mount this argument, if you had the data to show that contraception affected these rates.

    It just stands to reason that where contraceptives and abortificients are most readily available, infanticide rates will be lower. That infanticide rates are still high in the undeveloped world and negligible in the developed world points to the truth of this.

    But my point was that the willingness to kill children didn't emerge from the Enlightenment or from the sexual revolution. Infanticide has always been widely and commonly practiced, even by Christians, even by Catholics. Historically, even in the West, and later in the Christian West, it was either not considered a crime, or not seriously pursued as a crime.

    With respect to the willingness of a human being in pressing circumstances to kill their offspring, it was ever thus.

    Another thing to note is, as Greg points out, you can't give an objection to something that you believe to be imprudent when that objection itself has entailments that are repugnant to reason (e.g. the condemning of the innocent).

    I'm not saying that prudence demands that absolutely anything that prevents even the slightest net loss of life ought to be permissible for the sake of the common good. I'm saying that the scale of the AIDS pandemic in Africa suggests that the, with respect to the common good, the Church's stance on condoms is imprudent.

    I'm taking seriously what Brandon said re: rigorism vs prudence, and better vs. worse. I'd love to see an argument whereby it could be seen that the Church's policy on condoms in the region is prudent in the sense of leading to better, rather than worse, consequences.

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  61. Sunglasses,

    This is not a recent trend, or a trend associated with any particular philosophical or political tradition. Prior to the advent of effective contraception and abortificients, infanticide was widely practiced, even in the Christian West. I've seen studies (which I can't locate links to at the moment, but I will provide links soon) that puts the historic global infanticide rate at 15-20%, which is almost identical to the current global abortion rate of around 20%.

    There does, however, seem to have been a drop in infanticide (during at least the Middle Ages) compared to Roman times, when it was both legal and morally acceptable to expose or kill newborns for any reason a father desired. From memory, David Herlihy's Medieval Households is relevant. There's also a particularly relevant section of Barbara A. Hanawalt's The Ties That Bound: Peasant Families in Medieval England.

    I think Hanawalt also makes the point about infanticide not having reached such low levels until the advent of abortion and modern contraceptives. Though, obviously most, maybe all, Christian natural law theorists would not consider modern abortion to have ended infanticide, merely to have made it more efficient.

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  62. @ Timocrates

    I believe it's a problem of words in my case.
    I didn't in any way imply that sex and procreation is a private affair.
    The common good is of course connected to what the things to which the good is common are.
    We are, after all, discussing sins against nature.
    I'm in no way denying that man is by nature directed towards the common good, nor the fact that the sexual power is chiefly directed towards it rather than the private good.

    I simply want to spell out the intrinsicness of this power and it's directedness, so as to explain why no 'extrinsic titles', as it were, are allowed by natural lawyers to make, say, sodomy moral.

    @ DNW

    I'm going to explain the lack of "pay off" by appealing to the language barrier and the consequences of my insomnia, being a law school graduate and all. :)
    I would note, of course, that theft and sins against nature are not obviously analogous, though.

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  63. Well, promoting condoms in Africa probably would not solve the AIDS epidemic. Even if it's not quite right that introducing condoms will increase the spread of AIDS, the fact that it is so arguable implies that it is not a black-or-white issue: it's not the case that we'll see AIDS evaporate from Africa if we introduce condoms. Talking of it as a matter of letting people use condoms or depopulating a continent is inaccurate in any case.

    One could also make arguments about other negative effects. Would we see - as we do elsewhere - more advocacy for less traditional relationships? Then there might still be levels of AIDS among homosexuals comparable to those in, for example, America, where condom usage is high.

    Even if we allow consequentialist weighing, it's not obvious that your conclusion is all that prudent.

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  64. Catholic is never going to say, OK, it's time to hang the innocents

    Excuse me, but in the case of just war theory, don't Catholics say exactly that? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that one of the principle justifications for war under just war theory is the defense of the innocent. Isn't it true that, under just war theory, the number of innocents defended has to be balanced against the number of innocents likely to be killed, such that if many more are likely to be killed than saved, that eliminates the justness of the war?

    It just strikes me as odd that Catholics can apply nuance and precision and flexibility and... well... prudence when it comes to actually killing actually living people. Killing already existing people, even already existing innocent people, is sometimes permissible for the common good. But condom use is never permissible for the common use?

    I'd like to see you try to defend this position directly, with respect to the AIDS pandemic in Africa, rather than by analogy.

    I am not sure you know what the common good is.

    If you support the Church's policy in Africa, I'm not sure you do either, in an absolute sense. But if it's your point that I don't understand the common good as defined by Catholic moral tradition? Yes, that's why we're having this discussion.

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  65. I shouldn't have said "eliminates the justness of the war." Rather, would the fact that a particular act of war was likely to kill more innocents than it would save not count against the justness of the war, all things being equal?

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  66. @ Anon

    Excuse me, but in the case of just war theory, don't Catholics say exactly that? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that one of the principle justifications for war under just war theory is the defense of the innocent. Isn't it true that, under just war theory, the number of innocents defended has to be balanced against the number of innocents likely to be killed, such that if many more are likely to be killed than saved, that eliminates the justness of the war?

    Yes, you're mostly wrong. Any permitted evils must be proportionate to the good achieved; that is a necessary-but-not-sufficient criterion of the principle of double effect, of which the doctrine of just war is an extension.

    In a just war, you can't hang innocents or commit acts of terrorism (i.e. killing innocents on the other side to demoralize the other army). The death of innocents cannot be intended; it can be foreseen.

    There might be two acts in wartime. Both achieve something very good for your own army (the cause of which, we can assume, is just). One has the unforeseen side effect of killing innocents; in the other, the killing of innocents is intended. The first might be permissible, the second would not be.

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  67. @Sunglasses:

    (I see Greg has already replied as I was writing this, but here's my post anyway.)

    "Excuse me, but in the case of just war theory, don't Catholics say exactly that?"

    No, they say that deliberate, intentional killing of innocent people is everywhere and always wrong. They say, though—and this is probably what you're thinking of—that under certain circumstances it's morally permissible to take actions in war that you know will result in the death of noncombatants as long as (among other things) that's not the purpose of the action.

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  68. @ Anon

    Rather, would the fact that a particular act of war was likely to kill more innocents than it would save not count against the justness of the war, all things being equal?

    Yes, because in such a case the unintended but foreseen bad consequence is not proportionate to the end. That is why Catholics have opposed the dropping of atomic bombs in WWII.

    Killing already existing people, even already existing innocent people, is sometimes permissible for the common good.

    I should add that this is not permissible for the common good, on the most plausible reading of 'killing'. You can never intend to kill innocents. You can (all other things being equal) do something that results in the death of an innocent, if that is unintended but proportionate to your end.

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  69. You can pull the lever to save the people on the trolley, but you can't push the fat man off the bridge to do the same.

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  70. obviously my last post should have read: "[...] when it was *considered* legally and [...]"

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  71. Scott and Greg:

    Any permitted evils must be proportionate to the good achieved

    under certain circumstances it's morally permissible to take actions in war that you know will result in the death of noncombatants as long as (among other things) that's not the purpose of the action.

    In light of these principles, isn't there an argument available for the justness of condom distribution in Africa?

    Condoms will prevent some pregnancies, but that's not the point of their distribution.

    And, isn't the good of preventing the spread of AIDS proportionate to the evil of preventing some pregnancies?

    I simply don't see how the Catholic policy about AIDS in Africa is a clear triumph of prudence over rigorism.



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  72. Timocrates,

    Thanks for the response. I see Sunglasses has already given interesting rejoinders to your reply and I don't have anything interesting to add. So I'll leave you two to it.

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  73. You can pull the lever to save the people on the trolley, but you can't push the fat man off the bridge to do the same.

    This reasoning makes a certain kind of sense in most cases where the wrong means to the right end involve killing someone.

    When the wrong means involve merely providing someone with condoms and instructing them in their proper use, for me, the analogy falls apart.

    I would not kill a fat man to save a trolley, but I would regularly supply a fat man a box of condoms to prevent his entire village from dying from AIDS.

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  74. Preventing pregnancies is not (in a direct sense) the problem the Church has with condom use.

    The reason killing innocents intentionally is not permissible regardless of consequence is that the moral species of the act is evil. Catholics would argue that the same is true of distributing condoms because the moral species of contraceptive sex is also evil, and by distributing them both is scandalous and is formal cooperation in that evil.

    What justifies allowing innocents to die in a just war? The moral species or object of whatever act must not be bad, and the death of the innocents must be proportionate to the end, and the end cannot be achieved by means of the innocent's deaths. Some of those criteria of PDE are violated in the case of condom distribution, whereas they need not be in just war. The cases aren't analogous.

    At least the first and third is violated. I would say the third is violated because the AIDS-prevention (though not achieved my means of pregnancy-prevention, which is not in a direct sense what's wrong with condoms) is achieved by means of contraceptive acts. I doubt that the second criterion passes either, but I don't care to argue that here.

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  75. @Sunglasses:

    "In light of these principles, isn't there an argument available for the justness of condom distribution in Africa?"

    The mere absence of a condom is not the cause of the spread of HIV. The most common cause by far is infected people having sex with uninfected people after first having had sex with other infected people.

    As a matter of fact, there's research in support of the claim that promoting abstinence and marital fidelity has worked far better than condoms ever did in arresting the spread of HIV in Africa. That seems to have been what did the trick in Uganda.

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  76. "I would not kill a fat man to save a trolley, but I would regularly supply a fat man a box of condoms to prevent his entire village from dying from AIDS."

    If the fat man were going around spreading the disease by having sex with all the other villagers, why in heaven's name wouldn't you lock the bastard up?

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  77. "When the wrong means involve merely providing someone with condoms and instructing them in their proper use, for me, the analogy falls apart."

    I should be more clear. It is not an analogy, it is an illustration of a principle at work in this discussion. Others (Greg and Scott) have spelled that principle out more clearly.

    I want to comment on something else that you said earlier (though briefly, so we don't get trapped in another discussion about medieval law!)

    "I recall passages from Aquinas that it is contrary to the common good to require more virtue from a person than he is capable of giving, as this will have the tendency to discourage him from attempting pursuit the moral life."

    I believe the passages you are thinking of refer to matters of human or positive law. I brought this up in the previous thread to point out to another commenter that Thomas Aquinas was not a theocratic so and so who was all about using the state to enforce the Natural Law, and that he actually gave reasons to think that in some cases the state's doing so was contrary to the common good. A distinction needs to be noted, however, between what the natural law demands of us, and what the state is entitled to.

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  78. DNW wrote: "...remind everyone that morals or customs (whether good or bad) assume an associative relationship with other roughly equivalent or complementary agents of some kind."

    Ah yes: they "assume an associative relationship." Well, I dare say, as long as we bear in mind this lapidary statement of principle, the great majority of our confusion will be laid to rest.

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  79. For reference:

    PDE consists of four conditions, each necessary and together sufficient for the performance of an act that has good and evil effects.

    (1) The intended action must in itself be either good or at least permissible....

    (2) The good effect - that is, the effect of the initial action that is in itself indifferent - must follow from the act at least as immediately as the evil effect. The immediacy is not
    temporal but causal: the evil effect must either be caused by the good effet, or else be caused directly by the act that also directly causes the good effect. What is not allowed is that the good effect be caused by the evil effect, because then the agent would have to intend the evil effect as a means of bringing about the good effect. But the end never justifies the means - you may not intend evil under any circumstances, irrespective of the good that can be achieved - and so the act would not be permissible

    (3) The evil effect must never itself be intended, or willed as an objective, but merely
    permitted to occur. Even if the evil effect did not cause the good effect (contrary to (2)) it might still itself be intended along with the good effect; but then the agent would again be intending evil and so the act would be immoral.

    (4) There must be a proportionate and sufficiently serious reason for permitting the evil effect, in other words for performing the initial indifferent act that has a good effect. One would not have such a reason if one performed an act with a relatively insignificant good effect but a gravely evil effect.
    (Oderberg, Moral Theory, 90-91.

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  80. Greg:

    The moral species of dropping a bomb on a military target in an area heavily populated by civilians is not evil, but the moral species of putting on a condom to prevent AIDS is evil?

    This is where we just run into irreconcilable differences, I fear. I just can't wrap my head around this idea.

    Scott:

    1. Is there an African country where condom distribution was the main tactic that we can directly compare to Uganda?

    2. Condom use was part of Uganda's policy. They limited condom use to high-risk populations, but it just so happens (as the linked article below shows) the highest risk populations are (presumably Christian) married couples.

    3. At any rate, recent studies suggest Uganda's success has been overrated:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/03/world/africa/in-uganda-an-aids-success-story-comes-undone.html

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  81. If the fat man were going around spreading the disease by having sex with all the other villagers, why in heaven's name wouldn't you lock the bastard up?

    My presumption was that the fat man would be distributing the condoms to his fellow villagers, not that he would be using them all personally.

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  82. "I'm saying that the scale of the AIDS pandemic in Africa suggests that the, with respect to the common good, the Church's stance on condoms is imprudent."

    This is such a moronic statement, really. What do you think "the Church's stance on condoms" is?? That one should not use condoms but should instead have casual intercourse with multiple partners so as to create an AIDS pandemic? Good grief. Africans are not animals. They can be educated, just like some white people. They have impulse control, just like some white people. Edward C. Green's research has demonstrated that this is so.

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  83. ..the direction this discussion has now assumed, the one I suspected - with open consequentialism - I believe justifies my worries about (not) specifying the exact way the common good relates to the (im)morality of certain acts (such as contraceptive acts and sins against nature).

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  84. "The unitive end of sex would be sacrificed for a generation or more, and the requirement of lifelong chastity would turn millions from the faith."

    Sacrifice of the unitive (as well as the procreative) end of sex, for the right reason, is the highest Christian ideal. There would never be a requirement of lifelong continence. (Giving up the requirement of lifelong *chastity* is ipso facto giving up the faith - morality isn't some optional bonus relative to Christian faith.)

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  85. What do you think "the Church's stance on condoms" is?? That one should not use condoms but should instead have casual intercourse with multiple partners so as to create an AIDS pandemic? Good grief.

    This is so far from the case I've been making, taking into account the distinction between rigorism and prudence, better vs worse options, and the likely results on the ground of Catholic policy, that it doesn't even merit this entirely dismissive reply.

    I will not be conversing with the likes of you on this topic. Good day.

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  86. Fine, Sunglasses. But the fact remains that you're way up shit creek on this issue, and "the likes of me" is just someone who recognizes this. This would quickly become obvious if you would attempt to articulate a real, thought-out answer to my question.

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  87. "If the fat man were going around spreading the disease by having sex with all the other villagers, why in heaven's name wouldn't you lock the bastard up?"

    It would be odd if a person were, say, to be legally responsible for not wearing a condom, but not legally responsible for engaging in intercourse whilst infected. Similarly, it would be odd to hold someone morally responsible in the same way, or to say that the use of a condom was good, and not to say that indiscriminate coupling was bad, or that the use of the condom rendered the act good.

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  88. @ Anon

    The moral species of dropping a bomb on a military target in an area heavily populated by civilians is not evil, but the moral species of putting on a condom to prevent AIDS is evil?

    The moral species is dropping a bomb on a military target. The act is specified by the role is plays in your deliberation, i.e. when you identify your end and reason about what will accomplish it, what must you do? The fact that the military target is in a heavily populated area is not the species of the act.

    (Some might say instead that the species is just dropping a bomb, not dropping the bomb on the military target, but one is ordering the dropping of the bomb, insofar as it destroys the military target, to one's broader end of completing the war effort.)

    If it's an area heavily populated by civilians, there is a good chance that the bad effects are not proportionate to the end.

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  89. Matt wrote: "It would be odd if... (etc.)"

    LOL! Indeed, that would be odd! Idiotically odd. And yet this is the standard, tacit, idiotic assumption upon which depends all that progressive critique of the Church's 'rigorist' position on condom use.

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  90. @ Anon

    At any rate, recent studies suggest Uganda's success has been overrated:

    I don't really care to get into a debate over the empirical matters here. But whether the success is overrated is beside the point. The point is that condom distribution in Africa is not a matter of "massive depopulation" or eliminating AIDS. Even if AIDS does spread more quickly in Africa without condoms, they don't solve the problem. The scale of the solution is small because it is counteracted by other effects.

    I am sure we can go back and forth as to what the data does show. But since that's a possible argument, the scale of the problem is not what you claim it is, because the elimination of AIDS from Africa is not what is at stake. You could deny that sexual ethics (in the traditional sense) should have no weight at all, but that's to change the topic.

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  91. @Sunglasses:

    "My presumption was that the fat man would be distributing the condoms to his fellow villagers, not that he would be using them all personally."

    Well, if the condoms are supposed to be effective, then somebody who's infected must be having sex with somebody who isn't. Why aren't they responsible for the spread of a disease that, for the most part, you can avoid even contracting, let alone spreading, simply by being faithful to your spouse?

    I'm reeeeally struggling to see why in the world the Church bears any responsibility at all for the spread of this disease, let alone why it should compromise its standards of chastity to protect people from the consequences of…wait for it…unchastity.

    Stuff about "the rest of the world" notwithstanding, you needn't be Catholic (I'm not) to see the problem here.

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  92. It would be odd if a person were, say, to be legally responsible for not wearing a condom, but not legally responsible for engaging in intercourse whilst infected. Similarly, it would be odd to hold someone morally responsible in the same way, or to say that the use of a condom was good, and not to say that indiscriminate coupling was bad, or that the use of the condom rendered the act good.

    It's odd to bring the question of legality to the analogy at all.

    It's odd to think that condom use implies or requires indiscriminate coupling. Again, in the case of Uganda, moderate success was achieved by promoting both condom use and abstinence/fidelity.

    In light of the fact that I was specifically trying to respond to Brandon's arguments re: prudence sometimes being a matter better vs and not good vs evil, it's odd you interpret me as saying was that condom use while indiscriminate coupling was good, rather than merely better (than indiscriminate coupling without condom use).

    In short, everything you say here, and everything David M has said so far, is odd if you've been paying attention to what I've been saying.

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  93. Sunglasses,
    You have butchered Brandon's brief remark about prudence. He never suggested anything like what you have argued: that prudence indicates that we abandon all notion of the absolutely impermissible and let 'prudence' determine all our actions on consequentialist principles. Brandon never said that. You're the one who's not paying attention. You're confused. Try to answer my question; I predict it will help you to get unconfused. What do you think "the Church's stance on condoms" is?? Then, and only then, tell us why you think it is 'rigorist' and 'imprudent.'

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  94. Greg and Scott

    I'm not trying to blame the AIDS pandemic in Africa on the Church's policy wrt condoms.

    I'm saying, assuming Brandon's comments I originally referred to in bringing the subject up are correct, the Church's policy would seem to fall short of being prudent.

    If the perversion of a faculty is only immoral if it threatens the common good, and if the common good threatened by the faculty perversion inherent in condom use is depopulation, then if a lack of condom use is causing more depopulation than would condom use, the case that condom use threatens the common good seems to be undermined.

    I think that case is further undermined by the other possible effects of the condom prohibition, such as those turned from or against the faith due to the policy, or from the requirement of lifelong abstinence (for those already infected).

    I grant that there are considerations from the other side, such as the possibility that condom distribution would cause an increase in non-traditional sexual relationships. My point is not that the AIDS pandemic is the Catholic Churh's fault. It's merely this: that it's far from clear that the Catholic Church's position wrt the African AIDS pandemic passes the test of prudence.

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  95. @Sunglasses:

    "It's odd to bring the question of legality to the analogy at all."

    I'm the one that brought it in, and I don't think there's anything the least bit odd about it. And again, what "analogy"?

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  96. @Sunglasses:

    "[I]f a lack of condom use is causing more depopulation than would condom use, the case that condom use threatens the common good seems to be undermined."

    Well, it isn't, because the antecedent is false: the depopulation resulting from the spread of the disease isn't "caused" by the absence of a condom.

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  97. @ Anon

    I'm not trying to blame the AIDS pandemic in Africa on the Church's policy wrt condoms.

    I'm saying, assuming Brandon's comments I originally referred to in bringing the subject up are correct, the Church's policy would seem to fall short of being prudent.


    OK.

    If the perversion of a faculty is only immoral if it threatens the common good, and if the common good threatened by the faculty perversion inherent in condom use is depopulation, then if a lack of condom use is causing more depopulation than would condom use, the case that condom use threatens the common good seems to be undermined.

    Well that's easy. The common good threatened by the faculty perversion inherent in condom use is not depopulation (or, as I suppose you mean, population growth).

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  98. [I]f a lack of condom use is [resulting in] more depopulation than would condom use, the case that condom use threatens the common good seems to be undermined.

    Fixed it for you.

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  99. I'm the one that brought it in, and I don't think there's anything the least bit odd about it.

    I was envisioning the fat man being a priest distributing condoms to the village. In that context, your suggestion that the man be arrested makes no sense.

    If the source of AIDS in a particular village was one fat man knowingly and purposely infecting everyone else in the village then sure, arrest him. But that wasn't what I was suggesting.

    And again, what "analogy"?

    My use of the fat man and the village was an attempt to build on Matt's fat man and lever analogy.

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  100. Well, it isn't, because the antecedent is false: the depopulation resulting from the spread of the disease isn't "caused" by the absence of a condom.

    Then replace "is causing" with "results in."

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  101. There's nothing like the earnest critic of "the Church's stance on such-and-such" who seems not to know what "the Church's stance on such-and-such" is and refuses to say what he thinks it is. Critics like that are a dime-a-dozen, Sunglasses. Boring. Waste of time.

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  102. @ Anon

    I think that case is further undermined by the other possible effects of the condom prohibition, such as those turned from or against the faith due to the policy, or from the requirement of lifelong abstinence (for those already infected).

    Well, suppose (as the Church believes) that knowing and willingly engaging in contraceptive sex puts your eternal soul at risk. It is tragic that people would turn away from the Church because they perceive its policy to be imprudent here. But on the Church's part, it would hardly make sense to endorse mortal sin in order that people remain in the Church, for that would corrupt the Church as well, and would not be much help to those they are retaining.

    I can't quite tell what the phrase "from the requirement of lifelong abstinence (for those already infected)" is supposed to be modifying. I suppose that you mean that, without condoms, those infected with HIV have to be abstinent. This again would require the Church to endorse something scandalous. But even setting that aside, how would this be prudent? There is a good chance that someone who has HIV will infect his or her partner through a condom, if not because condoms are not 100% effective, then because there is a good chance that people will make a mistake if they are sexually active for a long time.

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  103. Well that's easy. The common good threatened by the faculty perversion inherent in condom use is not depopulation (or, as I suppose you mean, population growth).

    Yes, thank you (and John West) for the correction.

    Is population growth even one of the reasons why condom use is against the public good? If so, then the point stands.

    If not, then please enlighten me as to why condom use is against the common good?

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  104. David M.,

    There's nothing like the earnest critic of "the Church's stance on such-and-such" who seems not to know what "the Church's stance on such-and-such" is and refuses to say what he thinks it is. Critics like that are a dime-a-dozen, Sunglasses. Boring. Waste of time.

    I agree that if people fully followed Church policy, not just the part that lets them forego condoms, the charge fails.

    But Sunglasses has been a polite interlocutor and, despite all the failings in his argument, I think we owe it to him to restrain ourselves from drawing rhetorical blood (at least for as long as he is civil).

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  105. @Sunglasses:

    "Then replace 'is causing' with 'results in.'"

    I'm not sure how that helps. The spread of the disease isn't the "result" of the absence of condoms either. In all but a rare number of cases, it's the "result" of people who have been infected by one sexual partner going on to have sex with an uninfected partner.

    Sure, those people are more likely to spread the infection if they have sex without a condom. A murderer is also more likely to hit his target if he has a gun with an accurate sight, but I don't think we'd therefore say that the murder "resulted" from the accurate sight. And I'm pretty confident that we wouldn't be serving the "common good" by distributing guns with inaccurate sights to known serial killers.

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  106. "@ DNW

    I'm going to explain the lack of "pay off" by appealing to the language barrier and the consequences of my insomnia, being a law school graduate and all. :)
    I would note, of course, that theft and sins against nature are not obviously analogous, though.

    February 11, 2015 at 11:15 AM"


    I think that in seconding the general approach of Brandon and Scott, and the distinctions they were periodically addressing, I made a reference to "morals" which was in deliberate distinction to the concept of virtue ethics as it might be played out in some particularly unusual case.

    So, apart from the fact that I am not really clear on what a sin against nature is in the context you are using it, but I suppose you mean the nature of a man, you are correct that there probably would be a substantial conceptual difference between the goodness or badness of some accepted social practice and the best case scenario for the self-realization of some solitary.

    Which, is what I thought I was acknowledging and commending.

    There are also people here arguing about "human flourishing" as if the concept has some precise meaning. It looks more to me like a brace on a broken natural law axle than anything else. But perhaps they have read a book in which it was found to be a useful term of art.

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  107. I agree that if people fully followed Church policy, not just the part that lets them forego condoms, the charge fails.

    Well, yes, if people fully followed Church policy in all matters, all problems would be solved.

    But in light of the fact that the church knows that this is extremely unlikely, it's far from clear (to me, at least) that their policies here are prudent.

    At the end of the day, though, I have to be honest: this all may just come down to the fact that I can in no way actually conceive of a married couple's use of a condom as an act of inherent evil. I'm presenting the argument to you as if it were a matter of accepting an evil means to a good end, but in reality, in my own mind, it's a matter of a morally neutral ends to a good end. So, I suppose I can't really expect Catholics to see the argument as I see it.




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  108. Sunglasses,

    At the end of the day, though, I have to be honest: this all may just come down to the fact that I can in no way actually conceive of a married couple's use of a condom as an act of inherent evil. I'm presenting the argument to you as if it were a matter of accepting an evil means to a good end, but in reality, in my own mind, it's a matter of a morally neutral ends to a good end. So, I suppose I can't really expect Catholics to see the argument as I see it.

    The problem is that all your interlocutors need to show here, is that it's wrong on a natural law conception of wrong. I think they've done this quite capably. Convincing you the natural law conception of wrong is the correct conception of wrong is another matter, and one probably outside the scope of this post's topic.

    Is it clear how a married couple's condom use is wrong on a natural law conception of wrong?

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  109. Well, suppose (as the Church believes) that knowing and willingly engaging in contraceptive sex puts your eternal soul at risk.

    But contraceptive sex only endangers the soul because it's immoral. But it's immoral only because it's against the common good. And it's against the common good because...? That's the missing piece for me, if the creation of new human beings has nothing to do with it.

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  110. The problem is that all your interlocutors need to show here, is that it's wrong on a natural law conception of wrong. I think they've done this quite capably.

    Can you direct me to the post where this was accomplished?

    I'm still very unclear on why the perversion of the reproductive faculty inherent in the use of contraception is against the common good.

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  111. "Ah yes: they "assume an associative relationship." Well, I dare say, as long as we bear in mind this lapidary statement of principle, the great majority of our confusion will be laid to rest.

    February 11, 2015 at 12:01 PM"



    You "dare say" do you?

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  112. Correct me if I am wrong but does it not make sense people will become more sexually active, more often and in ever increasingly different ways with increased condom use thus increasing the chances of AIDS by probability? I mean we do all know, on both sides, that condoms fail either because of the user failure rate or defect in the condom?

    It's also been suggested (although this is well known to be the case with infections that spread via contact of the genital area not just the genitalia) that the small size of the aids virus, the speed of ejaculation (well this detail is my own) and the size of the holes in single dipped latex actually might makes condoms possibly a little like a false security since it's like through cats through a garage door (the comparative size)? I mean they were never designed in the first instance to prevent disease only children - this disease idea was an after thought.

    There is also another reason why condoms, sterilizations and contraceptives are offered to Africans in particular; can anyone guess what that is (hint, it's not for their benefit). Racism and people with too much money all are part of it.

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  113. Just as an aside, it's really annoying when, in these threads, a dude gets worked up and accuses others of not following well enough.

    for instance,

    "In short, everything you say here, and everything David M has said so far, is odd if you've been paying attention to what I've been saying."

    when, as Scott notes, he brought legality in, and as I will note now, my comment was building off of his. That is, his comment inspired me to some conjecture about some absurd entailments of your position, viz. that condom use in some cases would be in the interest of the common good. As natural law has been defined so far in the conversation, this is an absurdity, since it amounts not simply to the legal permission of an intrinsically evil act, but to a basis for proscriptions against failing to carry out that intrinsically evil act.

    John West rightly says,

    "Convincing you the natural law conception of wrong is the correct conception of wrong is another matter, and one probably outside the scope of this post's topic."

    This is the heart of the problem. Your manner of argument so far suggests a preference for utilitarian principles, and there, I believe, is where the real problem is to be resolved (whether or not utilitarianism or natural law more adequately accounts for our obligations).

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  114. Ouch a few mistakes in what I wrote above.

    Hope you get what I was saying.

    Like this one
    ** throwing cats through

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  115. Anon 3,

    "we do all know, on both sides, that condoms fail either because of the user failure rate"

    I'm going to take the opportunity to quote you to restate a point I made earlier, which is that contraception, in order to work, requires the cultivation of a habit. It takes discipline and such, just as being a "prudent robber" (to use Aquinas' example) would take a good deal of effort, cultivation of skills and so on.

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  116. @Sunglasses:

    "[I]n my own mind, it's a matter of a morally neutral [means] to a good end. So, I suppose I can't really expect Catholics to see the argument as I see it."

    I thought you were trying to see the Catholic argument as Catholics see it. And why would Catholics have any trouble understanding your argument just because they disagree with you that the means in question are morally neutral?

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  117. Or are you saying that your argument doesn't go through if the means in question are admitted to be inherently evil?

    I'm asking in all seriousness and with all respect, because if that is what you're saying, then your original question has been implicitly resolved.

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  118. As natural law has been defined so far in the conversation, this is an absurdity, since it amounts not simply to the legal permission of an intrinsically evil act

    No.

    As natural law has been defined in this conversation, whether or not the perversion of a faculty is a moral matter at all (much less inherently evil) is dependent on whether it negatively affects the common good.

    I was operating under the assumption (which has still not been corrected) that the (or at least a) reason contraception was against the common good was that it lowered the human population. If that's true, then it seems like it is at least arguable that, in some situations, if condom use would increase the net human population, that the case that it's against the common good would be weakened, and thus the case that it's morally wrong would be weakened.

    If you'd like to step up and explain why (or link me to an explanation of why) contraception is against the public good, that would move things along. But nowhere in this conversation has it been established that condom use is just inherently wrong, period. Brandon and Greg and Scott have argued that it's wrong because it negatively affects the common good. (In fact, large portions of the discussion (the entire exchange over sunglasses) have been geared towards correcting my assumption that, on the natural law view, all faculty perversions are inherently morally wrong.)

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  119. Scott,

    My question is this: why is contraceptive use against the common good?

    Again, if among the reasons for this is that it lowers the human population, then I think my point stands. If condom use could dramatically increase the net human population in certain situations, then the case that it's inherently against the common good has been weakened, and therefore, the case that it's inherently morally wrong has been weakened.

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  120. By the way, just in case anyone wishes to argue Church dogma or even various schools with me, I should make it plain that I have virtually no interest in Church dogma, and only a modest amount in Thomism.

    As I have stated here to progressives who have imagined otherwise; my sympathies lie with Feser's moderate realist position, the unavoidable necessity of taking terms as referring ultimately to objective categories, and the broad outlines of his analytical Thomism.

    American law, certainly has had many natural law underpinnings and assumptions, as do our moral conceptions, so it's not outre to employ it as a means of grasping the the best foundational motivations of law and morals. But trying to analyze sexual morality in terms of the visual faculty is just too preposterous to bother with.

    The point has been repeatedly and well made by numerous persons here that teleology per se is not law or morals, that one function is not the man, that public law is "I dare say" public, and that these simple points need to be kept in mind in order to avoid being sucked into the vortex.


    Any one who wishes to quote Aquinas on seminal emissions is invited to do so by the blog topic, and welcome to do so by my indifference, until hell freezes over.

    But really ... the concept of law? Yes. This business?

    I'll pass.

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  121. Sunglasses,

    In reply to your question to me: Can you direct me to the post where this was accomplished?

    At 10:25 AM, Greg wrote:

    Because, to show that an act is permissible, it is not sufficient to show that there it has the smallest net loss of life (or some other metric). To take the famous case, it would violate the common good to hang an innocent man, even if hanging him would stop a crowd from rioting.

    At 11:48 AM, Greg wrote:

    Preventing pregnancies is not (in a direct sense) the problem the Church has with condom use.

    The reason killing innocents intentionally is not permissible regardless of consequence is that the moral species of the act is evil. Catholics would argue that the same is true of distributing condoms because the moral species of contraceptive sex is also evil, and by distributing them both is scandalous and is formal cooperation in that evil.

    What justifies allowing innocents to die in a just war? The moral species or object of whatever act must not be bad, andthe death of the innocents must be proportionate to the end, and the end cannot be achieved by means of the innocent's deaths. Some of those criteria of PDE are violated in the case of condom distribution, whereas they need not be in just war. The cases aren't analogous.

    At least the first and third is violated. I would say the third is violated because the AIDS-prevention (though not achieved my means of pregnancy-prevention, which is not in a direct sense what's wrong with condoms) is achieved by means of contraceptive acts. I doubt that the second criterion passes either, but I don't care to argue that here.


    There's also points (1) through (4) quoted from Oderberg's Moral Theory at 12:05 PM. Finally, in relation to the moral species of contraceptive sex being evil, Greg posts in a later reply to you at 1:17 PM:

    Well, suppose (as the Church believes) that knowing and willingly engaging in contraceptive sex puts your eternal soul at risk. It is tragic that people would turn away from the Church because they perceive its policy to be imprudent here. But on the Church's part, it would hardly make sense to endorse mortal sin in order that people remain in the Church, for that would corrupt the Church as well, and would not be much help to those they are retaining.

    There is more, of course, but I think that's a good overview.

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  122. @ DNW

    Okay, back to your first comment.
    I confess I was using the term 'natural law' as it was used in Prof. Feser's 'Aquinas', for example. I assumed that would not be problematic on his blog.
    I wasn't discussing human positive law at all.
    'Sins against nature', as used by Aquinas (and me in this discussion), denote things like sodomy and bestiality. By extension - use of contraceptives.

    Sorry if you found my jocose reply to your specific point about people with legal background flippant.
    I also apologise for the apparent failure of my English.

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  123. John West,

    Where in those responses do you see an explanation of why contraception is against the common good?

    Or better yet, if you know why, just explain it yourself. I may be asking an idiotic question, but as I'll keep doing it until I get an answer, maybe someone should just answer me.

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  124. Sunglasses,

    Where in those responses do you see an explanation of why contraception is against the common good?

    Or better yet, if you know why, just explain it yourself. I may be asking an idiotic question, but as I'll keep doing it until I get an answer, maybe someone should just answer me.


    Requoting the most relevant parts of the quotes in reply to your first paragraph:

    To take the famous case, it would violate the common good to hang an innocent man, even if hanging him would stop a crowd from rioting.

    At 11:48 AM, Greg wrote:

    Preventing pregnancies is not (in a direct sense) the problem the Church has with condom use.

    The reason killing innocents intentionally is not permissible regardless of consequence is that the moral species of the act is evil. Catholics would argue that the same is true of distributing condoms because the moral species of contraceptive sex is also evil, and by distributing them both is scandalous and is formal cooperation in that evil.


    In short, and without belaboring the other, supporting defenses and points by others: it violates the common good to commit an act the moral species of which is evil. The moral species of contraceptive sex is evil. Therefore, it violates the common good to have contraceptive sex.

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  125. Why is the moral species of condom use evil?

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  126. @john and sunglasses anon

    Is it just me, or might there still be confusion from conflating the "common good" with "maximization of utility" or the like?

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  127. Sorry, that should have read:

    Why is the moral species of contraceptive sex evil.

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  128. Matt:

    The confusion comes from the fact that the past 10 or so responses have basically been this:

    Q: Why is contraceptive sex evil?

    A: Because it's against the common good.

    Q: Why is it against the common good?

    A: Because it's evil.

    Q: Yeah, but why is it evil?

    A: Because it's against the common good.

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  129. Sunglasses,

    Why is the moral species of contraceptive sex evil.

    The relevant quote, answering your question:

    Well, suppose (as the Church believes) that knowing and willingly engaging in contraceptive sex puts your eternal soul at risk.

    I also seem to recall Dr. Feser having something relevant to say about this question in What's the deal with sex? Part I.

    But for a better, more detailed answer, you're going to have to ask one of the people here who've read about natural law in any detail before three days ago (so, not me).

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  130. See what I mean?

    Why does it put your eternal soul at risk?

    But for a better, more detailed answer, you're going to have to ask one of the people here who've read about natural law in any detail before three days ago (so, not me).

    Then why would you say the question had been answered capably, when you're not even in a position to know if the question had been answered capably?

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  131. Because it answers the initial question. It doesn't answer hundreds of supplementary questions, which you've skillfully evaded asking until now (otherwise, produce proof that you've asked them).

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  132. Q: Why is contraceptive sex evil?

    A: Because it's against the common good.

    Q: Why is it against the common good?

    A: Because it's evil.

    Q: Yeah, but why is it evil?

    A: Because it's against the common good.


    Also, this is a straw man, Sunglasses. It's a disingenuous misrepresentation of the many careful answers people here have given you.

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  133. Sunglasses,

    "The confusion comes from the fact that the past 10 or so responses have basically been this:"

    If this is the case, then I think we all have been talking past each other. It didn't seem like this was your original question - which was whether or not the Catholic position was prudent in the case of Africa. You pressed this question, with, I assume, the intent to evince a flaw in the natural law position. That, as far as I can tell, has been resolved.

    For my part, I'll leave you to Anscombe to answer your current question (which, I note, seems a bit different from the original issue you raised), and hopefully, as John says, a commenter with more experience with natural law will also address this question (I look forward to their answer).

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  134. Blogger Georgy Mancz said...

    @ DNW

    Okay, back to your first comment.
    I confess I was using the term 'natural law' as it was used in Prof. Feser's 'Aquinas', for example. I assumed that would not be problematic on his blog.
    I wasn't discussing human positive law at all.
    'Sins against nature', as used by Aquinas (and me in this discussion), denote things like sodomy and bestiality. By extension - use of contraceptives.

    Sorry if you found my jocose reply to your specific point about people with legal background flippant.
    I also apologise for the apparent failure of my English.

    February 11, 2015 at 2:30 PM




    I have no problem with anything you said. You owe no apology, nor even any mild explanation. Your remark came off as light hearted, not flippant. My point was merely to re-emphasize what I had been trying to convey.

    And I have in fact admitted that the arguments of some on this board are probably much more in accord with the aim of Feser's posting than others'; and certainly much more than mine.

    Natural law analysis, the investigation into the intrinsic tendencies of species natures toward realizing certain objective and notably personal and socially consequential ends, is, I think, an indisputably valuable [well, we could even call it a heuristic as someone recently implied] methodology for gaining insight into the underlying logic of the evaluations that ultimately end up as legal pronouncements.

    And, though some may believe that to invoke the root meaning of, say, the word "morals" is to indulge in the tritely obvious, or to risk an etymological fallacy, from the point of view of someone trying to understand what law really is, as well as what it is not as a social phenomenon, emphasizing the obvious is unavoidable.

    Surely those here who have read Aquinas on law and who have an interest in American law, would also have read some of the basic works of American legal philosophy, such as Pound's Philosophy of Law, or Lon Fuller's, The Morality of Law.

    In Pound you find one view of the predicate of the law. In Fuller, another. In Hart, yet another.

    But in all of these, the men recognize a serious logical distinction between law and morals, and the fact that law is a public enterprise with some unique entailments: a fact which not only conditions how the concept of the deeper roots of the public law are to be contrarily conceived, but one which makes very plain the multitude of logical steps which interpose between even the most ardent natural lawyer's project and product, and any natural law informed public law which would result.

    Those here who have insisted on bringing this point up again and again, are very much right to do so in my view. The man who said here that teleology in not practical reason, made a critical point. And practical reason, is not yet law.


    It is simply clownish to believe - or more likely irresponsible to leave the impression - that you get from teleology to law in one magnificent swoop which effectively conflates all categories and concepts.

    Again, I commend Brandon and Scott, as well as others for intruding this point repeatedly - even if it was not their primary or explicit aim - into the conversation.

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  135. Also, this is a straw man, Sunglasses. It's a disingenuous misrepresentation of the many careful answers people here have given you.

    Right, but none of those careful answers have been forthcoming since Scott and Greg and Brandon stopped commenting. When they answer the question about common good, I dare say I won't miss it, or be confused about it. They have ably corrected me on my many mistakes thus far.

    However, if you don't know the correct answer to a question, you have no way of knowing whether or not the correct answer to the question has been provided. So, maybe you shouldn't insist that it has.

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  136. Sunglasses,

    To remind you of my original claim:

    The problem is that all your interlocutors need to show here, is that [contraceptive sex by a married couple] is wrong on a natural law conception of wrong. I think they've done this quite capably.

    I continue to insist that this has been shown (and capably). It's not an ultimate explanation, but it's a complete explanation, and that's more than sufficient. I leave it to others reading my previous posts to you to judge for themselves whether they agree.

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  137. Apparently it's free now.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/32168/32168-8.txt

    I still shudder when I think we had to outline in detail, type up, and turn in for a grade, every chapter of that rambling book. And Roscoe Pound of all people. He's not one of those writers who erect an organized framework and then hang his arguments neatly on it ... leaving you to merely perform the reverse act.

    The outlines become almost as long and involved as the chapters.

    Maitland was a great stylist, and reading him a pleasure, by comparison.

    Bloody Jesuits. :-/

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  138. @ DNW

    Well, perhaps it's my continental (civil, 'Roman' etc.) legal education, but I really don't see the problem with using the word 'law' analogously (esp. given Aquinas' definition in II-1 q.90)
    I do believe that natural law as espoused by Prof. Feser is an account of 'teleology as normative' (which is more than a heuristic). But I still fail to see how discussing this or sins against nature as such amounts to proposals of a legal pronouncement in the sense of positive human law, and I don't recall much of that (I could've missed something).

    Then again, perhaps you are referring to some other clown (that is, not me).

    I confess I was never particularly interested in American legal philosophy (Russians mostly get to read a lot of Germans, and I was more into Brits), but thanks for the link.

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  139. Matt Sheean,

    [A]s John says, a commenter with more experience with natural law will also address this question (I look forward to their answer).

    Well, I thought the answer was implicit in both Parts I and II of this post. I pointed to Dr. Feser's first post and thought I can assume Sunglasses has read this post:

    When natural law theorists and moral theologians talk about the procreative and unitive functions of sex, what they have in mind are the first two of these aspects. The basic idea of traditional natural law theory where sex is concerned is that since the good for us is determined by the natural ends of our faculties, it cannot be good for us to use our sexual faculties in a way that positively frustrates its procreative and unitive ends.

    The wrongness of condom use seems easy to infer from Ed's post here and his previous post.

    But as I wrote, any further detail would require reply from someone who knows more details than I do.

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  140. condom use during sex, of course -- contraceptive sex^

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  141. @Matt Sheean:

    "It didn't seem like this was your original question - which was whether or not the Catholic position was prudent in the case of Africa."

    And even that question granted arguendo that the Church's view of contraception was correct; the problem was supposed to be that it seemed "prudent" to encourage/endorse condom use if using condoms would help to reduce the spread of a fatal disease among those who have multiple sexual partners, even though it was held to be inherently evil:

    In the situation of the AIDS pandemic in Africa, it would seem treating condom use as an intrinsic evil is a triumph of rigorism over prudence. [That doesn't make sense in and of itself; deciding what is and isn't an "intrinsic evil" isn't a matter of "prudence." But Sunglasses continued:]…It may be replied that (unperforated) condom use is inherently evil, and we are not allowed to pursue inherently evil means even to a good end. But if an invading army were causing a similar level of harm in the region, the natural law tradition of just war would positively affirm the morality of waging war against that army.

    The question, which was originally about the supposed "prudence" of balancing competing evils, has indeed moved on. I'm honestly not sure how even to begin to answer this new question; it seems to rest on false assumptions.

    As far as I know, nobody has said that the only thing in any way "wrong" with contraception is that it fails to serve the common good. In DNW's Last Man on Earth scenario, it would still be possible for the sole remaining human being to exercise virtue or fail to do so. Since there wouldn't be any other human beings, his actions wouldn't be covered by morality as such (and they would of course be ungoverned by human positive law), but they could still be in a sense inherently good or evil since he still has a nature that can be fulfilled or frustrated. Eating a cupful of Drāno, say, would be inherently evil in that sense.

    Moreover, if the Last Man's proper end is the Beatific Vision, then of course his actions can still help or hinder that end. I don't expect to generate much controversy by observing that misusing his God-given body and/or its organs would hinder it.

    But the very performance of the conjugal act requires that there be two people involved (not to mention the possible creation of at least one more), so I'm unclear about how there could fail to be a common good at issue in contraception, one that goes beyond even the couple themselves to the interest of every human being in the propagation of the human species. And I agree with John West that the question of how contraception violates this good has been adequately addressed.

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  142. "Blogger Georgy Mancz said...

    @ DNW

    Well, perhaps it's my continental (civil, 'Roman' etc.) legal education, but I really don't see the problem with using the word 'law' analogously (esp. given Aquinas' definition in II-1 q.90)
    I do believe that natural law as espoused by Prof. Feser is an account of 'teleology as normative' (which is more than a heuristic). But I still fail to see how discussing this or sins against nature as such amounts to proposals of a legal pronouncement in the sense of positive human law, and I don't recall much of that (I could've missed something).

    Then again, perhaps you are referring to some other clown (that is, not me).

    I confess I was never particularly interested in American legal philosophy (Russians mostly get to read a lot of Germans, and I was more into Brits), but thanks for the link.

    February 11, 2015 at 4:35 PM"

    I'm glad I checked back before signing off.

    1. You and I don't actually have a disagreement that amounts to anything in terms of this blogging post.

    I'm not taking issue with your having "X" perspective, I am claiming that the distinctions brought out by Brandon and numerous others are important distinctions that ought to be borne in mind.

    2. Before you thank me for the link, you might want to read the text. It is probably not "philosophy of law" as you are thinking of the philosophy of law.

    For that I would suggest either Lon Fuller's work, The Morality of Law, or Herbert Hart's, The Concept of Law.

    Both of these books deal more with the predicates of law as law, and less with the evolution of legal fashions or concepts.

    I did not present that link I left thinking it would be attractive to you in particular. I thought Scott might get a kick out of, presuming he threw his school copy away.

    How-some-ever, as they say, if you have even a modest interest in the development of Anglo-American law, the following links to public domain works may be worth saving, if your interest in English legal theory or history hasn't already gathered them together:

    Some classics

    The Law of the Constitution, by Albert Venn Dicey
    https://archive.org/details/introductiontos04dicegoog


    The History of English Law, by William Maitland and Fredrick Pollock.

    http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/2312

    or

    https://archive.org/details/historyenglishl04maitgoog


    and, http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Maitland%2C%20Frederic%20William%2C%201850-1906



    BRACTON DE LEGIBUS ET
    CONSUETUDINIBUS ANGLI^
    https://archive.org/details/translationofgla00glanuoft
    (and several more)


    Lectures on Early English History, Stubbs
    https://archive.org/details/lecturesonearly00stub


    Ranulf de Glanville, John Beames
    https://archive.org/details/translationofgla00glanuoft


    Now, since you are a Russian, I wonder if you know of an online text of Nikolai Krylenko's works in English?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Krylenko

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  143. @ Sunglasses

    I have not argued that contraceptive acts are inherently immoral for the sake of this discussion because your charge has been that the Church is being imprudent, and ostensibly that means: imprudent even on its own terms. So I would agree with Scott that, if whether or not the moral species of contraception is evil is the remaining issue, then the original charge has been answered.

    In this discussion you've almost always interpreted "common good" as "greatest good" in some (quasi-)consequentialist sense, which is far from the sense used by the natural law tradition. (This is why I have followed others' use of 'common good' but have tried to state my own points in terms of the moral species.) But the common good is the good of the political society, which is conceived of as more than the sum of the parts. The ordering of men to political society is analogous to the ordering of organs to an animal. A political society has normative ends as do other things; and it is aimed at the perfection and flourishing of its constituents and the promoting of specifically human goods.

    So ultimately contraception will violate the common good insofar as it violates the goods of individual humans. Here one might give a perverted faculty argument; I am not going to spell that out since Feser has done it elsewhere. I admit that treating contraception as a violation of the common good will not be very informative (nor was it meant to be by me, Scott, or Brandon), and might give someone the impression that what's wrong with contraception is really about harm to others (where harm is conceived of in some roughly "premoral" sense).

    I suppose one could argue as well that contraceptive acts are bad for marriages, which are the foundation of political society, and on the public understanding of marriage, and in that respect are a more direct attack on the common good.

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  144. John West,

    "The wrongness of condom use seems easy to infer from Ed's post here and his previous post."

    Agreed. I found it puzzling that he pressed the new question, since the answer to it is what the OPs are about. I wish I would have said as much, and I would encourage Sunglasses, as you have, to go back and read through both parts of this series carefully.

    Otherwise, I thought this argument the whole time was about whether or not someone should promote something they have reason to believe is intrinsically evil, should there be some utility to be maximized by promoting it. That seems to answer itself, but it was helpful for me to engage it, to make some of my own thoughts more clear.

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  145. ^

    ugh, I use too many commas sometimes. Apologies

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  146. @Matt Sheean:

    I, do, too, but, hey.

    Seriously, your commas are fine. I speak here as a professional editor.

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  147. Scott,

    "I'm honestly not sure how even to begin to answer this new question; it seems to rest on false assumptions."

    Yea, I don't understand where all the stuff about decreasing the population and preventing pregnancy came in.

    Here at the tail-end of this conversation I'm wondering (this is all very speculative) if a big barrier to grasping the natural law position rests in an overly psychological view of sex - that the married couple who uses contraception, for instance, is still facilitating the good of their union by carrying out this intensely intimate act. A little Kantian in me wants to object that this sounds an awful lot like treating one another as a means, and it can't be good for the members of the most basic unit of society to be comfortable with that (although, as I remember it, Kant seems to weirdly think that sex in general just is the use of the other person - but, it does seem to me that contraceptive sex limits it to the use of the other, i.e. the mutual satisfaction of each other's need to get their Rawls off).

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  148. ha, thanks, Scott, I feel better, about my commas.

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  149. Commas are important because if you don't use them your sentence can seem like a run-on sentence which is distracting even if it wouldn't be so if it were properly punctuated. Break it into bite-sized pieces, I say, and damn the torpedoes.

    Of course, using them, too often, is also, bad, much as the use-of-hyphens can get out-of-control and distract-the-reader from what's being-said. Still, if you use them properly, as in this sentence, you can write at great length and never lose your reader even though, as this example suggests, the sentence may, nay, even must be regarded as, let us say, perhaps a bit overlong, at least in comparison to those in the usual run of combox posts, for whatever that may be worth.

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  150. @Matt Sheean:

    "[I]t does seem to me that contraceptive sex limits it to the use of the other, i.e. the mutual satisfaction of each other's need to get their Rawls off[.]"

    I think that's just exactly the problem that Catholic moral philosophy has with it. It's a failure (a privation, and thus an evil) to fulfill the natural tendency of the sexual act to lead to mutual self-giving, which in turn is precisely because it's performed for the sole purpose of enjoying the pleasure of "talking about Rawls" while frustrating the act's natural end.

    I'm not 100% on board with that view myself, but it's certainly reasonable, coherent, and formidable. If it's correct, then I and a lot of people I know have committed some pretty egregious errors.

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  151. As far as I know, nobody has said that the only thing in any way "wrong" with contraception is that it fails to serve the common good. In DNW's Last Man on Earth scenario, it would still be possible for the sole remaining human being to exercise virtue or fail to do so.

    Scott, thanks for the clarifying that. I admit I get a horrible sinking feeling when phrases like 'the common good' start being used.

    A little Kantian in me wants to object that this sounds an awful lot like treating one another as a means, and it can't be good for the members of the most basic unit of society to be comfortable with that (although, as I remember it, Kant seems to weirdly think that sex in general just is the use of the other person - but, it does seem to me that contraceptive sex limits it to the use of the other, i.e. the mutual satisfaction of each other's need to get their Rawls off).

    No offense but on the 'people are ends not means' premise I don't see how the Natural Law account does anything different save that it treats both parties as a means to an end i.e. reproduction which is itself just a means to an end i.e. more reproduction. That's not Kant, that's not even Bentham, it's more like Schopenhauer. Plato of course mentions something like this in The Symposium as the only way brute animals can approximate immortality but I doubt the Platonic view would sit well with the orthodox 'this worldly' by-line.

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  152. Wow, missed a lot. I haven't been able to go through the whole thread, and probably won't have time to do so properly, but from a brief skim, a couple of things that seem noteworthy, assuming no one else has mentioned them, or worth reiterating, if someone has:

    (1) Distinction has to be made between natural law and particular conclusions of prudence. It is a precept of natural law that we be prudent, but natural law does not dictate particular prudential judgments. Prudence, on the other hand, presupposes natural law; if something is wrong by natural law, it will always be imprudent, and avoiding it always prudent. Prudential judgment, in other words, is downstream from natural law, and thus what is prudent or imprudent in a matter can only be determined after one has considered what is according to natural law.

    (2) 'Common good' as used in natural law can include, but is certainly not limited to, consequences. Common good is exactly what it says on the tin: good we all share in common. Certain actions are themselves contributors to the common good, independently of any particular consequences they might have. (To borrow a case from positive law, public maintenance of cultural heritage is part of the common good of a people, even before we get to the question of good consequences following from it.) Propagation of the human race (which includes not just sexual procreation but education of children and the relations between generations) is necessarily part of the common good for the human race; this is, I think, independent of any particular population concerns -- population concerns are only concerns, for instance, when they are possibly threatening the propagation of humanity in some way (to take just one possible example, by making it impossible for each generation to set the next up for a life of virtue and, where possible, prosperity).

    I think, then, that to ask whether contraception violates the common good is to begin the question in the wrong place -- it's the final, not the initial, question. The real question is what makes it possible for sexual acts to be acts maintaining and contributing to common good. If contraception violates common good, it can only be by messing with these features, so that contraception makes for bad stewardship of the features of sexual life that concern common good. It's sex, not contraception, that is the root of the issue; contraception can only be right or wrong, good or bad, with respect to how it relates to the ways in which sex can be good and right.

    Apologies if this merely repeats someone's comment in a way that I missed.

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  153. @ Sunglasses,

    Because of where I live, which has a university with a lot of African students (and I mean students from Africa) I can assure you that the West’s Progressives are deeply despised for their paternalistic attitude toward the African AIDs issue and even their (from the African’s perspective) absurd suggestion that condoms are the solution. They are not.

    Firstly, condoms are notoriously unreliable for preventing STDs, especially in the context of promiscuity, where people are not just having a lot of sex (nothing wrong with that in the context of a marriage of course between the spouses) but a lot of sex with a lot of people and its being impossible to generally inform the public about any and every individual’s level of promiscuity (so people can easily lie about how promiscuous they really are). So condoms are really useless in preventing the spread of STDs. The West has a notoriously high rate of STDs notwithstanding the general availability, acceptance and use of condoms.

    Secondly, for African intellectuals one of the most seriously developmental hindrances in Africa was exactly habits that militated against facilitating stable domestic environments for youth and children. Curtailing this has been important for many African countries and the relationship between its reduction (at least as an overall percentage) and the rise in living standards, tax revenues, etc., has been helpful. It is therefore usually policy to militate against extreme sexual vices as this helps African countries to become internally stronger and more independent, something Africans deeply desire.

    Lastly, prescribing condoms are at best a cosmetic cure for STDs but are bad even as that because there is a misunderstanding of the sexual drive. People prefer birth control pills over condoms whenever they can for a reason: condoms reduce the pleasure of the sexual act. Now if people are preoccupied with satisfying that desire and maximizing pleasure, then on top of the failure rate of condoms to begin with you also have the problem that people are apt to forego their use entirely if for whatever reason they become unavailable (the ones available are expired or deformed and the local store isn’t open).

    Therefore because condoms do not curtail, but even if anything facilitate, high promiscuity, do not encourage stable living arrangements and do virtually nothing in the long term to even prevent (but more probably just delays) people’s contracting STDs they are not the solution at all to Africa’s AIDs problem but, in fact if anything, something that really does encourage it, especially insofar as it is most wrongly promoted as an effective solution and safeguard against it, which it is not.

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  154. @ Sunglasses, re: “sexual responsibility even to the point of abstinence”.

    You replied,

    “Again, if prudence is the head of all the virtues, how could this be so?”

    How could what be so? Are you actually doubting that if my fathering a child would really imperil to the point of total extinction of the human race that would be an immoral act on my part? That I should not practice abstinence? No doubt someone else might do it; but if he did so knowingly, that would definitely still be immoral.

    Again, how is recklessly endangering my life (if the human race faces extinction that includes me) be “prudent”?

    ”[Infanticide is] just what human beings do when they don't have the means to prevent themselves from having more children than they can afford.”

    Thank you for making me vomit.

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  155. @Sunglasses:

    By the way…

    "the requirement of lifelong chastity…"

    …I don't think anyone has yet expressly told you (though David M alluded to it) that "chastity" isn't synonymous with "abstinence." It just means sexual virtue.

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  156. Infanticide is an obscurantist term that spinsters have slipped into the conversation -- language that "blur[s] the outlines and cover[s] all the details" (Orwell, Politics and the English Language). Much clearer to call it baby-killing.

    Thanks for reminding me, Tim.

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  157. @Timocrates:

    "Thank you for making me vomit."

    I had a similar reaction.

    @Daniel:

    "Scott, thanks for the clarifying that. I admit I get a horrible sinking feeling when phrases like 'the common good' start being used."

    I know exactly what you mean. But I'm using the term "common good" just as Brandon defines it: "Common good is exactly what it says on the tin: good we all share in common." Aquinas also uses the term (or at least its equivalent in ecclesiastical Latin) to mean specifically the good of a realm or a society, which, following Aristotle, he takes to be of a different species from the particular good of this or that individual. But I take that to mean primarily that there are some human goods that are inherently social, not that they're just flat-out independent of individual goods altogether.

    It therefore also occurs to me that in the Last Man scenario, it might still be possible for the sole remaining human to behave immorally. Mightn't he be doing something morally wrong if he actively rejoiced that the rest of the human race was dead? He would, after all, still be a social animal, and that sort of pleasure would still not be proper to his nature.

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  158. @Daniel:

    "No offense but on the 'people are ends not means' premise I don't see how the Natural Law account does anything different save that it treats both parties as a means to an end i.e. reproduction which is itself just a means to an end i.e. more reproduction."

    The real point of "people are ends, not means" is that people shouldn't be treated only as means. There's nothing wrong with, say, treating your doctor as a "means" to health as long as you also treat him in a way that respects his, er, "endiness."

    I don't think the natural-law view you're criticizing treats people only as means. And I don't see anything morally problematic in recognizing that people are among other things "means" for making more people. That doesn't deny that people are also "ends"; in fact we presume as much when we give that fact moral importance, for the only reason we care about reproduction is that we do regard people as valuable in and of themselves.

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  159. "'chastity isn't synonymous with 'abstinence.' It just means sexual virtue."

    to add to that, this is another reason why contraceptive sex is going to be seen as evil in some sense, since it involves (or so the argument might go) a kind of cheat when it comes to the virtue. One doesn't have to cultivate chastity, one might think, so long as the consequences of one's actions are empirically indistinguishable (more or less) from the actions of one who is chaste.

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  160. Georgy Mancz said...

    @ DNW

    Well, perhaps it's my continental (civil, 'Roman' etc.) legal education, but I really don't see the problem with using the word 'law' analogously (esp. given Aquinas' definition in II-1 q.90)
    I do believe that natural law as espoused by Prof. Feser is an account of 'teleology as normative' (which is more than a heuristic). "


    Yes, Feser certainly believes it is normative in a much more positive and morally prescriptive sense than the sense in which natural law predicates help to inform our bill of rights, and the "charter of negative liberties" which Obama thinks is so inadequate.


    "But I still fail to see how discussing this or sins against nature as such amounts to proposals of a legal pronouncement in the sense of positive human law, and I don't recall much of that (I could've missed something).

    Then again, perhaps you are referring to some other clown (that is, not me).

    I confess I was never particularly interested in American legal philosophy (Russians mostly get to read a lot of Germans, and I was more into Brits), but thanks for the link.
    February 11, 2015 at 4:35 PM




    Georgy,

    Last night I responded with a long post filled with links for your enjoyment, and fortunately for me, in retrospect, it was probably deemed spam and sent down the rabbit hole.

    Let me just re-cap a few points in no particular order.

    First, I am not sure what we are supposed to be arguing about here, or what the bone of contention is. I have stipulated that most of the postings here more closely follow Feser's intended line than do any of my comments.


    Second, what I had expressed was an appreciation for a couple of commenters who had offered cautionary provisos based on some important distinctions between biological mechanics and ends, and the moral principles inferred from them, the judgments as how best to behave in light of this information, and eventually one would assume, the formation and promulgation of positive law.

    None of this was directed at you.

    Yet, I'm also certain that you read Brandon's remarks: you even thanked him for the clarifying quality.

    I'm not sure what the problem is. And I am certainly not referring to you as a clown.

    As for the Pound link: I really didn't have you in mind in particular. It was just something I thought a number of other people might enjoy.

    In fact, I think it is probably not something you would find particularly helpful.

    You say you read some English legal philosophy. I have as well, though possibly to a much lesser degree. I would be interested to know whether you are referring to John Austin, or Herbert Hart, or possibly more modern and current authors.

    I also was going to ask you for a favor since you say you are Russian: To ask if you knew of a downloadable English language text on Krylenko's legal theories.

    Now that would be something. Perhaps a copy of the worst could guide us all toward the better.

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  161. @Daniel and Scott,

    "I don't see how the Natural Law account does anything different save that it treats both parties as a means to an end i.e. reproduction"

    Both parties can be seen as ends, or, to pollute this thread with more Kantian jargon, the rational personality may be regained and established when both parties jointly strive for a common end.

    There might be a Wittgenstein-ish supplement to this, too, if we consider that procreation establishes the objective, meaningful end of sexual activity, whereas if sexual satisfaction/pleasure is set as the end, even mutual satisfaction, we have something like a private language in the sexual encounter.

    From these two sketchy thoughts - procreation gives sex its meaningfulness (meaningfulness being a social thing to boot), and is the condition by which the "endiness" of both parties is preserved in the act (that is, when they both strive together for that common, meaningful end).

    This is all pretty sketchy, as I said.

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  162. Scott said...

    @Timocrates:

    "Thank you for making me vomit."

    I had a similar reaction.

    @Daniel:

    "Scott, thanks for the clarifying that. I admit I get a horrible sinking feeling when phrases like 'the common good' start being used."

    I know exactly what you mean."





    Make that three or more, and add the word "queasy".

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  163. @John West:

    "Infanticide is an obscurantist term that spinsters have slipped into the conversation…"

    Do you know, I've only just now realized that by "spinsters" you meant "people who spin things" rather than "old maids beyond the age of marriage." I guess the thread topic warped my thinking. ;-)

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  164. (And now I'm wondering whether "spin doctors" might be construed as "physicians specializing in the treatment of old unmarried women.")

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  165. Scott,

    Do you know, I've only just now realized that by "spinsters" you meant "people who spin things" rather than "old maids beyond the age of marriage." I guess the thread topic warped my thinking. ;-)

    In retrospect, I probably should have written "spin doctors". I just wanted to be clear I wasn't accusing anyone here of slipping the term into the conversation.

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  166. (And now I'm wondering whether "spin doctors" might be construed as "physicians specializing in the treatment of old unmarried women.")

    ... you beat me to it.

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  167. Shame about the old ladies getting blamed, though.

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  168. @John West:

    "Shame about the old ladies getting blamed, though."

    Yeah. Old maids do seem to be among the least likely people to commit infanticide.

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  169. Scott,

    Yeah. Old maids do seem to be among the least likely people to commit infanticide.

    You mean to kill babies?

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  170. That's what I meant, but I was trying to spinst it.

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  171. Scott,

    That's what I meant, but I was trying to spinst it.

    See? Look at all those syllables you saved writing spinst.

    But seriously, I should have written spin doctor.

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  172. @John West:

    "But seriously, I should have written spin doctor."

    Oh, probably everybody but me knew what you meant right away, and even I got it eventually. And etymologically, at least, the word you used does mean one who spins.

    I kinda like it and I hope it catches on. "Today a White House spinster announced that…"

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  173. (A quick Google search during a break from my editorial work reveals that the phrase "White House spinster" has occasionally, though not often, already been used in precisely that way.)

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  174. One serious question that people tend to look at when trying to determine what is the natural law for human sexuality is sex in the history of human evolution. Perhaps all such arguments should be discarded on philosophical grounds, but we can concede for the time being that such an approach has an intuitive plausibility and deserves attention. It's a serious question whether all of Natural Law can be deduced a priori from a straightforward analysis of biological "functions." Secondary functions can be utilized by evolution to booster primary functions such that the existence and use of the secondary function can be necessary to evolve and maintain the health and practice of the primary function. After all, if the sexual organ can be shown to have a function in intrinsic biological human flourishing that is outside the current boundaries of what we consider Natural Law, would that not just then mean that we should change our scope of what the Natural Law IS? Can empirical information about how we actually EVOLVED have any bearing on our analysis of what is the "Natural Law" for our sexual predilections?

    Let's assume that a rigorous analysis of human evolution shows that there was a major evolutionary advantage to apes for whom masturbation was easy to achieve. You could cash this out by proving that an ape able to keep themselves in a high state of sexual excitement and arousal even through long periods where he wasn't able to copulate made him then better able to perform and actually impregnate a mate when the opportunity arose. The sexual instinct is a existential muscle and if suppressed through chosen or non-chosen celibacy the sexually vitality of the creature tends to wane. So, the ape able to keep his sexual appetite high and satisfied through self-stimulation also then made him better able to reproduce when the time arose. In this case, nothing could be more natural to a human male then masturbation as his sexual instinct, his NORMAL and INTRINSIC sexual instinct, was literally shaped and selected based on his ability to masturbate often. It will have encouraged human copulation in the long run, not suppressed it. To demand that he not masturbate, even when he has no access to a mate, would be to frustrate the Natural End of his sexual apparatus, which has been intrinsically selected for its ease of self-stimulation and cannot be divorced from it AS WHAT IT IS! Nor would masturbation DISCOURAGE the primary function of his sexual biology but could be shown to actually promote it, as long as he only masturbate when he lack access to a mate.

    The important thing to note here is that, in the example, the human instinct and physiology has been formed and determined precisely by a man's ability to achieve self-sexual pleasure and keep his sexual machinery "active" in periods of female drought. Perhaps an evolutionist could even prove that there are physical aspects to male physiology determined by this very feature. Indeed, the majority of male orgasms since the beginning of the species probably are from masturbation. Right or wrong, it is what it is. In my make-believe case there can be no separating what a man's sexuality IS from the FACT that he is a creature who often successfully masturbates, as this is what partially enabled his sexual instinct to evolve to what it is in the first place; masturbation would be a "natural end" of the sexual organ as masturbation, rather than frustrating the natural end of his sexuality, ultimately encouraged it!

    Whether or not it's true is not my point. I can think of NUMEROUS other possible examples that would follow this basic scheme.

    This is why, though I agree with the sexual teachings of the Church, I do not believe they can be axiomatically deduced from a medieval conception of Natural Law that rarely mentions the nuances of evolutionary theory and the essential causes of how our sexuality and anatomy ACTUALLY got to be the way it did.

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  175. @Matt Sigl:

    In your post you summarize your point in two ways that differ greatly in their significance.

    Initially you say:

    "It's a serious question whether all of Natural Law can be deduced a priori from a straightforward analysis of biological 'functions.'"

    Later you say:

    "[T]hough I agree with the sexual teachings of the Church, I do not believe they can be axiomatically deduced from a medieval conception of Natural Law that rarely mentions the nuances of evolutionary theory and the essential causes of how our sexuality and anatomy ACTUALLY got to be the way it did."

    Your first statement says that the pre- and proscriptions of natural law may not be strictly deducible from an analysis of biological functions.

    Your second statement says that the sexual teachings of the Church are not deducible from (at least one account of) natural law itself.

    Those are two very different statements. Even if natural law were not deducible from an analysis of biological functions, the Church's teaching on sex might still follow from it; and even if natural law were deducible from an analysis of biological functions, the Church's teachings on sex might not follow from it.

    Can you clarify which of the two (or both) you mean? (For the record, although I'm broadly in the "natural law" camp and coming by degrees to agree with Catholic sexual teaching, I'm skeptical about both points myself.)

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  176. I'll put it this way: I believe that the Church's teaching on sexual morality is only understandable as a Divine Revelation not wholly or even mostly deducible from any other kind of moral analysis, including Natural Law, especially in a post-Darwinian world. (The fact that there are almost no atheist Natural Law theorists - or any atheist moral theorists in general - suggesting a personal prohibition of masturbation or homosexuality gives weight to the point I think. Natural Law is clever but doesn't CONVINCE. God does.)

    It's really God's word that is determining the correct opinions here I suspect, with Natural Law as the official justification apparatus, but one that is rarely convincing to the unbeliever (and sometimes the Believer, if you look at the modern American Catholic)! SOME of the sexual rules might be able to be determined from other moral theories or a natural law theory (arguments against beastiality for instance) but I think by and large the sexual ethics of Catholicism must be seen as direct revelations that teach us how to navigate a mysterious fallen world, for reasons that I sketch in my above post. Indeed, this has been the only domain of philosophic thought where I've found Feser's arguments unconvincing. In my personal case, the sinfulness of homosexuality had to be personally revealed to me, the Natural Law Case just had too many wholes...gaps usually ignored (IMHO) by those trying to maintain a traditional pre-Darwinian Thomistic Natural Law theory. (Hell, I even read Andrew Sullivan's Natural Law Defense of Homosexuality and was convinced by it at the time, I think for good reason.)

    My point about the functions is that an "obvious" analysis of an anatomical function which then completely determines that biological form's "natural end" can be misleading, for reasons I hope I made clear. It's actually a point I think I could elaborate much further on as evolution often changes the functions of anatomy with environmental change, making malleable the very "teleological" purpose of anatomy itself. But that is a bigger issue.

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  177. @Matt Sigl:

    "It's really God's word that is determining the correct opinions here I suspect, with Natural Law as the official justification apparatus, but one that is rarely convincing to the unbeliever (and sometimes the Believer, if you look at the modern American Catholic)!"

    Please allow me to offer myself as a partial counterexample. I am not Catholic and I'm working my way through the praeambula fidei in a philosophical manner not dependent on special revelation, and I find the Catholic case fairly compelling even though I'm not 100% persuaded yet on certain specific points.

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  178. (Of course I don't mean by that statement that natural law rather than God is what's doing the convincing. Surely "natural law" is understood in a theistic context to be precisely the way God "convinces" us of certain moral facts that we all know, whether we credit the "convincing" to God or not.)

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  179. From St. Augustine's Confessions (Pine-Coffin trans.):

    "I read and understood by myself all the books that I could find on the so-called liberal arts[.] But what advantage did I gain from them? I read them with pleasure, but I did not know the real source of such true and certain facts as they contained. I had my back to the light, and my face was turned towards the things which it illumined, so that my eyes, by which I saw the things which stood in the light, were themselves in darkness. Without great difficulty and without need of a teacher I understood all that I read on the arts of rhetoric and logic, on geometry, music and mathematics. ... [W]hat good to me was my ability, if I did not use it well? And ability I had, for until I tried to instruct others I did not realize that these subjects are very difficult to master, even for pupils who are studious and intelligent, and a student who could follow my instruction without faltering was reckoned a very fine scholar."

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  180. "From St. Augustine's Confessions"…

    If this was aimed at me (which I hope it was), it's fairly apt, although I don't think I quite have my "back to the light."

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  181. Scott,

    As was done with another part of the quoted passage, the "back to the the light" sentence could have been replaced with an ellipsis. In fact, the original plan was to do that. If I had thought that that sentence would be misinterpreted as my intimating that you might have your back to the light, then I would have stuck with the original plan. But I left the sentence in partly because it did seem relevant in the following, if fleeting, way.

    You wrote, "Surely 'natural law' is understood in a theistic context to be precisely the way God 'convinces' us of certain moral facts that we all know, whether we credit the 'convincing' to God or not."

    And when St. Augustine wrote that he had had his back to the light, he did not mean that he could not learn true and certain facts (he explicitly states that he did learn them), only that he missed out on knowing the real source of those true and certain facts.

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  182. Matt Sigl,

    Natural Law is clever but doesn't CONVINCE. God does.

    Why do you seem so certain that God does not use Natural Law to draw some people in His general direction? Or that He doesn't soften up some hard-headed or hard-hearted folk with Natural Law that they later might be convinced by Him?

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  183. Glenn -

    No doubt he does. But, the majority of people who follow traditional sexual morality do not do so because they are convinced by Natural Law Arguments. Remember, Natural Law, as I understand it, claims to be demonstrable without reference to revelation, perhaps even without reference to theism. (Though you rarely see a Natural Law conceptual system disentangled from an overarching theistic worldview.)

    Further, for reasons I point out in my posts, I just don't think that for many topics related to sexuality, Natural Law just can't demonstrate what it purports to demonstrate in a post-Darwinian context. Indeed I think the problems with reconciling a broad evolutionary picture with Natural Law is all but impossible given the categories of Aristotelian Causation (which I have great affinity for, if some nuanced questions) that Natural Law utilizes.

    Compare this with the philosophical arguments for God's existence, which likewise is not the reason most people believe in God but which nonetheless, IMHO, DO demonstrate what they intend to prove and compellingly so, for reasons so often articulated by Prof. Feser.

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  184. @ Matt Sigl,

    Just for the record, masturbation is not good for man or healthy, contrary to what a lot of people might want to believe or think.

    Consider what people are not thinking about when, e.g., they are fantasizing sexually. There is something about it that as it were consumes, blocks, clouds and overshadows the intellect. Again, I stress that to get my meaning it is perhaps best to think about what man is *not* thinking about even when they are "merely" fantasizing. Good luck even doing basic math while fantasizing sexually or indulging in a sexual fantasy: I would say that to the extent you even can, you are necessarily also not doing as much math as you could or as well as you could. There's just something about it. Now habituating oneself to this can become seriously detrimental and also break down one's will power.

    Furthermore, comparing man to animals is often fallacious for what is proper or natural, exactly because man lives by reason, not instinct.

    For the philosopher I would say when it comes to sexual indulgence, even merely fantasy, beware: the more you engage in it the less you are doing philosophy and almost certainly the less able you will be to. God is not mocked: Wisdom and enlightenment are not gained by breaking his law or commandments.

    I think even armchair philosophers should reflect on their own experience: Notice that your study of philosophy has already altered your appetites to an extent. I would ask, Are you as thrilled by, e.g., television as you once were? Are you not a bit of an oddity that you find such immense joy and pleasure even in silent contemplation? Are you not the better for that? Are you not better that even in something of isolation you can console yourself with thinking? Now to the extent that you find joy naturally in man's highest natural power (reason and reasoning) are you not already in part in a position already to see that the intellect and its use is what is truly most apt to make man happy? Does it not provide great pleasure? Does it not even already have the power to compete with even sexual pleasure? If it does not, then I would say you have but dipped your toe in philosophy.

    And here we are only talking of philosophy, let alone the company of God and God's grace.

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  185. @ Matt Sigl


    I implore Mr. Green to make an appearance to defend the relevant thesis once more, but, really, in what way, exactly, is evolution relevant in identifying (!) the final causes we have now?.. Evolution is about how a living thing came to be, not strictly speaking what is is.

    The phrase that I think is indicative of the misunderstanding I suspect you have is "intrinsically selected". What is this supposed to mean?.. Natural selection, say, is not a property of any nature essence. It's not even a thing, and it's extrinsic vis-a-vis a particular living thing.

    I don't think a case can be made that any living thing has an intrinsic end to evolve (for one thing, this end cannot be pursued immanently). And you do write as if it was the case.
    This: "intrinsic biological human flourishing". In what way is it intrinsic and what do you mean by all of the used terms?
    I suspect equivocations here ("intrinsic", "flourishing" and "nature", for that matter).
    I don't suppose that by "flourishing" you mean 'cohering to one's essence, pursuing intrinsic end etc", do you?

    The issue you must take issue with, it appears, should not be 'natural law' (in Prof. Feser's use), because it's derivative, but rather essentialism and intrinsic teleology (on which natural law depends).
    And I think that you do indeed dispute the truth of these theses (I find your statement about Aristotelian causation to indicate that). Now, I don't see how evolution falsifies essentialism (I refer you to Prof. Feser's "The Last Superstition" and David Oderberg's "Real Essentialism").

    To take another example: the natural end of communication (in the narrow sense) is sharing truth. Let us suppose that the totality of environmental factors, in the broad sense, make it so that lying greatly contributes to survival of and procreation by a lying individual (heck, perhaps it's actually the case). One could even say that lying individuals do not have to lie all the time, and their survival in the end guarantees more of actual truthtelling would be going on (because, say, more people survived and do communicate)
    Does it make it an intrinsic end and therefore a real good to be pursued? Of course not. The advantage of lying has no bearing on the intrinsic end of communication. If the progeny of liars was due to several factors relatively better at lying (selected because of their parents' lying) or whatever, would that amount to a natural end? I believe not. Lying is parasitic on truthtelling, the same dependence masturbation has on our sexual faculties. Being selected for doesn't by itself establish a natural end, nor a separate function. This adaptation - being for some reason better at deceiving fellow humans - would be accidental in relation to the communicative faculty (there is no quality that demands an 'essence' here, just a privation).
    Natural selection is not a designer nor a director (in the sense of an orchestra) of final causes, as I'm sure you know (though, of course, it determines what living things with essences actually obtain).

    At any rate, in this article, and in natural law accounts in general, the truth of essentialism and intrinsic teleology is presupposed, not defended. So it's a separate argument.

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  186. To add detail to my liars: suppose, say, very attractive people with soothing and relaxing voices who chose to lie succeed at a higher rate than others. Their progeny ex hypothesi inherits the abovementioned features.
    Would that constitute a 'deceiving power' corresponding to a similar natural end?
    The reason I think the answer should be negative is because the outcome (not an effect) is analyzable in terms of properties humans have (say, we usually get distracted by attractiveness and less attentive when feeling completely comfortable). Hence, there is no distinct quality here, no power in the strict sense, and no intrinsic end of a natural law kind.

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  187. @Glenn:

    Understood. Thanks.

    I wouldn't have needed the elaboration if I'd known you'd written the post; it was only because it was posted anonymously that I wasn't sure.

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  188. Matt Sigl,

    No doubt he does. But, the majority of people who follow traditional sexual morality do not do so because they are convinced by Natural Law Arguments.

    Well, now, that is quite true.

    The thing, however, is this: the majority of people who are not aware of Natural Law or think Natural Law undeserving of their attention, nonetheless manage to endeavor to act in accordance with its first precept -- which, as you no doubt are aware, is to do good and avoid evil.

    Likewise, and if I may be forgiven for understating the matter, the majority of people following traditional sexual morality are, wittingly or unwittingly, guided by what Natural Law theorists would refer to as... Natural Law.

    Indeed, being a somewhat reasonable person with a modicum of sanity and a dash of common sense makes it, notwithstanding verbal protestations to the contrary, rather difficult to avoid Natural Law. Even in this so-called 'post-Darwinian age'.

    But you needn't take my word for it (or the word of anyone else here, for that matter); consult instead the Word itself:

    "[I]t is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)" -- Romans 2:13-15 (NIV)

    - - - - -

    Where there's bickering between opposites on some issue -- e.g., "A is good, and B is bad." "No! A is bad, and B is good!" -- Natural Law is operative. For neither side is denying either that that which is good ought to be done or that that which is bad ought not to be done. No. What they are bickering about is what it is that is good, and what it is that is bad.

    (While this is an overly simplistic account of the matter, it does, I think, point to the heart of it.)

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  189. Scott,

    Sorry for the confusion; glad we're good.

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  190. @Glenn:

    Yep, it's all good. Peace, my friend.

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  191. Once more unto the breach...

    I think my earlier comment about Wittgenstein was much to vague. The idea was that the pursuit of the satisfaction of one's desire for the other couldn't give a relationship a meaningful basis so long as that satisfaction was turned inward toward the resolution of something as fickle as sexual feeling. "Suppose I write a little 'S' in my diary every time that John Rawls was good for me." This is reminiscent of skeptical musing of Pascal's, too, "We never, then, love a person, only qualities."

    I was reading the Memorabilia yesterday and Xenophon puts a little aphorism in Socrates' mouth that seems to nicely put the whole problem with the pursuit of pleasure in romantic relations:

    it is "ill befitting a man of honor to appear as a beggar before his beloved, in whose eyes he would fain be precious, ever petitioning for something base to give and base to get."

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  192. Sunglasses here; back from hiatus:

    I have not argued that contraceptive acts are inherently immoral for the sake of this discussion because your charge has been that the Church is being imprudent, and ostensibly that means: imprudent even on its own terms. So I would agree with Scott that, if whether or not the moral species of contraception is evil is the remaining issue, then the original charge has been answered.

    I don't think this is quite the case. I originally constructed my argument under the impression that the common good that is violated by contraception is human propagation. If that's the case, then if it can be shown that condom use results in greater human propagation, then condom use does not necessarily violate the common good. And if it could be further shown that condom use in Africa would result in greater human propagation, then it would be shown that the Church's position on the African Aids crisis is not prudent.

    However, when you said that human propagation was not the reason contraceptive use violated the common good, you forced me to reevaluate my argument. I don't consider the charge to necessarily have been answered, rather it was possibly put forth under incorrect assumptions. I was trying to correct those assumptions to see if the charge could be reformulated. But that requires what I don't think I've been given: a consistent answer on exactly how contraceptive use violates the common good.

    At this point, I'd be happy with a link that spells out with precision exactly what the Scholastic concept of "common good" entails, and exactly how contraceptive use violates it. You all seem to think this has been adequately answered, but I'll just note my disagreement. (That it has not been answered is reflected by the fact that the sympathetic but admittedly neophyte commenters were utterly incapable of explicating the answer in the absence of the more expert commentators, nor were they able to direct me to the posts where the answer had been given. But once the more expert commentators returned to encourage the neophytes in their conviction that the answer had been given, everyone proceeded to express relief that the answer had been given. And all this in the absence of anyone actually giving, or referencing, an answer. )

    So ultimately contraception will violate the common good insofar as it violates the goods of individual humans.

    In what way does it violate the goods of individual humans?

    Here one might give a perverted faculty argument; I am not going to spell that out since Feser has done it elsewhere.

    But the point of the discussion so far is that the mere fact that a faculty is being perverted is not enough to demonstrate that a moral wrong has been committed. So what would a perverted faculty argument prove?

    I admit that treating contraception as a violation of the common good will not be very informative (nor was it meant to be by me, Scott, or Brandon), and might give someone the impression that what's wrong with contraception is really about harm to others (where harm is conceived of in some roughly "premoral" sense).

    It would be very helpful if it could explained exactly why contraception is wrong, if the fact that it perverts a faculty isn't sufficient to show that it's wrong, and if the fact that it hurts others isn't sufficient to show that it's wrong.

    I suppose one could argue as well that contraceptive acts are bad for marriages

    If it were actually an argument that explained exactly how contraceptive acts are bad for marriages, that would be a start.

    But at this point I'm more confused than ever about why natural law theorists consider contraception immoral.

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  193. Sunglasses,

    Did you read the Anscombe paper?

    Also, Scott's comment in reply to me on Feb 11 at 6:21 is pertinent.

    Otherwise, your style is uncomfortably like a commenter who participated in the last sex thread, which was aptly described there as the rhetorical equivalent of (coincidentally Catholic) mutant man Nightcrawler.

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  194. As far as I know, nobody has said that the only thing in any way "wrong" with contraception is that it fails to serve the common good.

    I'm sorry, didn't Brandon say that the only way anything can be morally wrong (or a moral issue at all) is if it violates the common good? Did I misunderstand him or do you disagree?

    As for the "last man" comments, I don't think it's necessary that there be a community for there to be a common good. If there's only one human being, then the common good would still apply to that human being. I never thought otherwise.

    But the very performance of the conjugal act requires that there be two people involved (not to mention the possible creation of at least one more), so I'm unclear about how there could fail to be a common good at issue in contraception, one that goes beyond even the couple themselves to the interest of every human being in the propagation of the human species.

    I grant that a common good is always possibly at issue. What I'm less clear on is why contraceptive use would always violate this common good. If a couple cannot afford any more children, why would contraceptive use violate this common good? You would argue that NFP is available to this couple, but again, if human propagation is the common good at stake, why is NFP better than contraception?

    The previous answer was that contraception changed the inherent nature of the sex act. So, perhaps that would be a good place to locate the actual wrongness of the contraceptive sex act. Why does changing the inherent nature of the sex act constitute a moral transgression on natural law? I assume the answer will involve a perverted faculties argument, but if Brandon is correct that perverted faculties are insufficient to show that an act is morally wrong unless they violate the common good, you will still be need to explain how changing the inherent nature of the sex act violates the common good.

    And I agree with John West that the question of how contraception violates this good has been adequately addressed.

    The original answer to this was the human propagation, to which you again here refer. However, when Greg insisted that the common good involved was not human propagation, that was when I became confused. If Greg is correct in his statement, then this question has not been adequately addressed.

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  195. Matt, at this point I'm mainly interested in answers from Greg, Brandon, or Scott. If your only contribution to the discussion is to regurgitate answers they've previously given, perhaps it's best if you clear the way for them to respond?

    However, if you'd like to summarize Anscombe's essay answers my question, that would be useful.

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  196. Propagation of the human race (which includes not just sexual procreation but education of children and the relations between generations) is necessarily part of the common good for the human race; this is, I think, independent of any particular population concerns -- population concerns are only concerns, for instance, when they are possibly threatening the propagation of humanity in some way (to take just one possible example, by making it impossible for each generation to set the next up for a life of virtue and, where possible, prosperity).

    This is really confusing. So, you're saying the common good that contraception threatens is propagation, and that this would be true even if contraception aided human propagation?

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  197. Anon,

    The answer that I was regurgitating, I hope, might go some distance to answering your question. It was an answer that was given after your hiatus to the question you posed before leaving - why contraceptive sex is considered of the species of evil on the Catholic view.

    Anscombes paper deals to some extent with the history of Catholic thought on the subject, and why the view that contraceptive sex is evil has persisted.

    With that, I shall respect your wish and refrain from commenting further,

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  198. I think that's just exactly the problem that Catholic moral philosophy has with it. It's a failure (a privation, and thus an evil) to fulfill the natural tendency of the sexual act to lead to mutual self-giving, which in turn is precisely because it's performed for the sole purpose of enjoying the pleasure of "talking about Rawls" while frustrating the act's natural end.

    I don't understand how using contraception prevents "mutual self-giving." For that matter, I don't understand what is exactly meant by "mutual self-giving."

    And contraceptive sex could be performed for one of the act's natural ends, the same end that NFP sex is performed for: the Church-endorsed "unitive end" of sex.

    In general, I'm noting that NFP doesn't fare any better than contraception in meeting the terms given.

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