Tuesday, January 27, 2015

What’s the deal with sex? Part I


In the second edition of his book Practical Ethics, Peter Singer writes:

[T]he first thing to say about ethics is that it is not a set of prohibitions particularly concerned with sex.  Even in the era of AIDS, sex raises no unique moral issues at all.  Decisions about sex may involve considerations of honesty, concern for others, prudence, and so on, but there is nothing special about sex in this respect, for the same could be said of decisions about driving a car. (p. 2, emphasis added)

I have long regarded this as one of the most imbecilic things any philosopher has ever said.  That sex has special moral significance, indeed tremendous moral significance, is blindingly obvious.  That is why all of the world religions, and major thinkers from Plato to Augustine to Aquinas to Kant to Freud, have regarded sex as having tremendous moral significance.  Nor do you have to agree with the specific teachings of any of these religions or thinkers to see that it has tremendous moral significance.  Indeed, you don’t necessarily have to take any particular stand on any of the usual “hot button” issues -- abortion, extramarital sex, homosexuality, contraception, etc. -- to see that it has special significance.  What takes real effort is getting yourself not to see the unique significance of sex.  That takes ideological thinking, intellectual dishonesty and slovenliness, or just plain moral obtuseness -- or all of the above, as in the case of “ethicists” like Singer.

There are at least three respects in which sex has special moral significance, and manifestly so:

1. Sex is the means by which new people are made.  Now, how we treat people, especially in matters of life and death, obviously has moral significance.  Indeed, ethics is largely (even if not entirely) concerned with how we treat other people.  So, since sex is the way new people come into being in the first place, it obviously has special moral significance.  Moreover, no one denies that we have special moral responsibilities toward our immediate family members, and especially children.  But the new people who we bring about through sex are, of course, precisely our children.  Hence sex is very morally significant indeed.

Of course, some people deny that new people are directly brought into being by sex.  For example, defenders of abortion often claim that embryos and even fetuses are not really persons but only “potential persons.”  Naturally, I disagree with this.  Embryos and fetuses are not “potential persons”; rather they are persons, but persons who have not yet realized certain of their key potentials.  But for present purposes this is not a debate that needs to be resolved.  Even people who make claims of the sort in question admit that abortion raises serious moral issues that the defender of abortion has to deal with.  For even they would at least allow that embryos and fetuses are “potential persons” in a way that other things are not “potential persons,” insofar as they have a natural tendency to become persons that other things (an unfertilized ovum, a dog, etc.) do not have.  But the way these “potential persons” typically come into being is, of course, through sex.  Hence sex has at the very least a unique indirect connection to the generation of new persons.  Thus if aborting so-called “potential persons” raises serious moral questions, it follows that sex raises serious moral questions. 

To be sure, defenders of abortion take different views about how serious the moral questions raised by abortion are.  Some admit that abortion is at least regrettable and better avoided all things being equal, even if they think it ought to be permitted.  They maintain that abortion should be “safe, legal, and rare.”  Others don’t particularly care whether it’s rare.  But even they typically admit that it takes a fair amount of argumentation to show that this attitude is morally legitimate.  Hence even Singer -- who explains that his book “contains no discussion of sexual morality” because he thinks sex lacks any special moral significance -- devotes an entire chapter to the subject of abortion.  Now if it weren’t for sex, there would of course be no abortion issue in the first place.  Hence if even Singer admits that abortion raises morally significant questions, he should also admit that sex has special moral significance.  After all, the reason for most abortions is precisely to avoid having to take the special moral responsibility for a new human being that letting the child be born would entail.  Even the abortion defender should admit that any behavior that puts you in the situation of having either to get an abortion or take special moral responsibility for some new human being is itself a pretty morally significant kind of behavior.

Note that it is not a good objection to point out that much sexual behavior does not actually result in new people, and that new people might come about in other ways (artificial insemination and cloning).  Obviously, sex and the production of new people are nevertheless connected in a special way.  For one thing, the biological function of sex is to make new people, even if it doesn’t always in fact result in new people.  Sex only exists in the first place because it has this reproductive function.  (This is so even given a reductionist naturalistic analysis of biological function rather than a non-reductionist Aristotelian analysis; and it is so whether or not one thinks biological function has all the specific moral implications we traditional natural law theorists claim it does.)  For another thing, the other ways in which new people might come about are either relatively rare (only a small percentage of pregnancies are the result of artificial insemination) or still theoretical (cloning), and they are in any event parasitic on the usual way new people come into being, viz. sexual intercourse.  It is only because people already generally reproduce by means of sex that there are natural processes which we might interfere with and thereby cause people to come into being in these other, idiosyncratic ways. 

Consider the following analogy.  I think it’s safe to suppose that most people who would take Singer’s attitude toward sex would also say that guns raise special moral questions that other human artifacts do not, because of the special dangers they pose to human life.  And they would say this despite the fact that most gun use does not result in death, and most deaths do not result from the use of guns.  For guns nevertheless have a propensity for causing death that entails that we ought to be very cautious in using them, and that raises special moral and legal questions.  (Note that it raises these questions however we end up answering them.  The point does not depend on whether one takes a liberal or a conservative view on questions about gun control.)  By the same token, sex obviously has a propensity for causing new people to exist that suffices to give it special moral significance, even if not all sexual intercourse results in new people and even if not all new people result from sexual intercourse. 

2. Sex is the means by which we are completed qua men and women.  Needless to say, a person’s sexual organs require those of another human being of the opposite sex if they are to fulfill their biological function.  In that sense we are incomplete without sex.  But it’s more than just plumbing or physiology.  Most people, for at least a significant portion of their lives, will feel frustrated and unfulfilled if they are unable to have the sort of romantic relationship with another person which has sex as its natural concomitant.  As I argued on natural law grounds in an earlier post, our psychology, no less than our physiology, is naturally “directed toward” another human being as the end required for its completion.  As I also there argued, this sexual psychology forms a continuum, from (to borrow some terminology from C. S. Lewis) mere Venus or basic sexual desire at one end to Eros or full-on romantic longing at the other. 

Of course, there are exceptions.  There are people who forsake such relationships because they are called to a higher state of the sort represented by the priesthood or religious life.  Precisely because the good is a higher good, the person so called is able to overcome the frustration that might otherwise attend such forsaking.  There are also some people who simply lack any significant sexual or romantic desires in the first place.  But in the typical case, human beings will be frustrated by the lack of a sexual relationship with another human being.

Now of course, we traditional natural law types maintain that such a relationship ought to exist only in the context of marriage, and also (as discussed in another earlier post) that the natural end toward which human sexual psychology is directed is a human being of the opposite sex, rather than merely “a person” in the abstract.  But once again, for present purposes, you needn’t agree with all that.  The book of Genesis characterizes our sexual incompleteness in decidedly heterosexual terms.  The myth of Aristophanes in Plato’s Symposium famously portrays it in a much more freewheeling way.  But both testify to the antiquity of the idea that a human being needs another human being sexually for his or her completion.  Advocates of “same-sex marriage” testify to this need as well to the extent that they defend “same-sex marriage” in the name of romantic love and personal fulfillment. 

Failure to succeed in romantic relationships can be not only frustrating in itself, but can affect a person’s sense of self-worth, as can any indication that one simply lacks the capacity to attract or satisfy a lover.  Thus, to belittle a person’s romantic feelings or sexual advances, or to disparage his or her sexual performance or attractiveness to the opposite sex, are all actions considered especially cruel and humiliating.  The presence of a sexual aspect to other harms and misfortunes also makes them much harder to bear.  Adultery is considered a far deeper betrayal than any mere breach of contract.  Rape and child molestation are far more cruel and psychologically scarring than a non-sexual assault.  Exposure of one’s private sexual foibles is regarded as far more humiliating than the disclosure of financial improprieties or other crimes. 

Now, that people take there to be a great deal at stake where sex is concerned -- that they regard success in sexual matters as so important to their happiness, and misfortune in sexual matters as a source of such misery -- makes it simply ludicrous to suggest, as Singer does, that “sex raises no unique moral issues at all” or that “there is nothing special about sex” vis-à-vis the moral considerations relevant to it.  Given the importance people naturally attach to it, they can obviously do serious harm to themselves or to others depending on how they behave sexually.  You might as well say that there is nothing especially morally significant about being a parent, or about being extremely rich, or about being a policeman or a public official. 

It is fatuous to pretend that the moral considerations are entirely extrinsic to sex -- mere “considerations of honesty, concern for others, prudence, and so on… [which apply also to] decisions about driving a car,” as Singer claims.  You could equally well say this of matters Singer thinks do have special moral significance.  For example, you could with no less plausibility say about the distribution of wealth or the state of the environment that they “raise no unique moral issues at all” and that “there is nothing special about” them, but that they merely involve attention to “considerations of honesty, concern for others, prudence, and so on… [which apply also to] decisions about driving a car.”  Yet Singer devotes to each of these topics a chapter in Practical Ethics, and has devoted much attention to them elsewhere as well. 

3. Sex is that area of human life in which the animal side of our nature most relentlessly fights against the rational side of our nature.  Sexual pleasure is the most intense of pleasures.  The reasons for this have to do with the considerations raised in the first two points.  Sex is necessary for the generation of new human beings, but generating new human beings imposes on us enormous costs and responsibilities which we are very reluctant to take on.  Nature has thus made sex so extremely pleasurable that people will engage in it anyway, despite its propensity to generate new people for whom they will have to take responsibility.  Sex is also that act which consummates, in the most physically and emotionally intimate or unifying way possible, those romantic relationships in which we seek to remedy our sense of incompleteness.  This adds a further, psychologically rich layer of pleasure to the act, which greatly enhances what is already intensely pleasurable just at a raw animal level.

It is not surprising, therefore, that the satisfaction this kind of pleasure promises us can lead us to do all sorts of deeply irrational things.  For just a few moments of sexual pleasure, many people will risk damage to their reputations and the breaking up of marriages and families, both their own and those of others.  Sexual or romantic passion can prevent people from seeing that a certain person is simply not a suitable marriage partner or someone with whom to have children.  Romantic and sexual jealousy can tempt people to spy on and stalk the object of their affections, or even to commit murder.  The quest for romantic and sexual pleasure can take on a compulsive character.  Hence people become promiscuous, or addicted to pornography, or prone to excessive romantic fantasizing, constantly falling in and out of love.  And of course there are various less serious ways in which romantic love or the desire for sex can lead us to act in ways we would otherwise regard as obviously foolish (ill-considered attempts to impress someone to whom one is attracted, crude sexual advances, etc.).

There is another way in which sex can lead us to act irrationally.  We can be so troubled by its tendency to make us act irrationally that we overreact to its potential dangers.  Horrified by the extremes to which some people go in the pursuit of sexual pleasure, other people sometimes tend toward the opposite extreme.  They might prudishly judge that all sexual pleasure is of its nature suspect and better avoided entirely, or at least as far as possible, even in marriage.  Even when married, they might scrupulously fret and worry over the minute details of every sexual desire or every aspect of their lovemaking, constantly in a panic over whether they have fallen into sin.  (This is, of course, much less rare a tendency these days than the opposite extreme is.  But judging from some of the oddballs you’ll find pontificating here and there on the internet, and some of the email that shows up occasionally in my combox, it does exist.  Certainly it has existed in a great many people historically.)

Everyone knows all this; once again, you don’t need to agree with traditional natural law theory to see the point.  But it is obvious that this tendency of sex to cloud our reason is of special moral significance.  What it tempts us toward is a kind of vice; naturally, then, there must also be such a thing as virtue where sex is concerned, a sober middle ground that avoids irrational extremes.  Those who reject traditional natural law theory will of course disagree with it about the specific content of virtue where matters of sex are concerned, but it simply defies reason to pretend, as Singer does, that “sex raises no unique moral issues at all.”

Indeed, people who say, in the face of all the obvious evidence, that sex is “no big deal,” thereby merely provide yet a further example of the irrationality to which we are prone in matters of sex.  For this sort of remark is, of course, typically an attempt to rationalize or excuse sexual behavior widely thought to be morally questionable but which the speaker would like to engage in anyway. 

So far I have been appealing to considerations which, as I have said, any reasonable person should agree with, whether or not he accepts everything a natural law theorist or a Catholic moral theologian would maintain vis-à-vis sexual morality.  The point is to show that one needn’t be committed wholesale to traditional sexual morality to see that sex clearly has the kind of moral significance Singer denies it does. 

But even what has been said so far goes a long way toward showing how reasonable traditional sexual morality is.  Catholic moral theology distinguishes three ends or purposes of marriage: the procreation and education of children, the mutual aid of the spouses, and the remedying of concupiscence.  It should be evident that these purposes are aimed precisely at dealing with the three respects in which sex raises special moral problems.  Sex has a propensity to result in the generation of new human beings; marriage functions to secure for these new human beings a stable environment in which their material and spiritual needs can be met.  Our desire for sexual and romantic relationships reflects our sense of being in some deep way incomplete; the institution of marriage, by which we commit ourselves to another person through thick and thin, functions to ensure that we find completion that is stable and substantive rather than ephemeral and superficial.  Sexual desire tempts us to act contrary to reason in ways that threaten to damage both ourselves and others; marriage functions to discipline sexual desire by channeling it in a way that is both socially constructive and conducive to our own best interests.

Obviously, further argumentation would be required to defend the entire range of claims Catholic moral theology and natural law theory would make about sexual morality, but that is not to the present point.  The point is rather that there is simply no basis at all for the view -- by no means unique to Singer -- that “sex raises no unique moral issues at all,” or for the common, tiresome allegation that traditional moralists’ concern with sexual morality reflects mere superstition or prudery. 

Much more can be said about the special moral problems posed by sex, from a specifically Thomistic (and thus inevitably more controversial) point of view.  But that will have to wait for a follow-up post.

612 comments:

  1. Matt.

    If cow humping was as popular as eating beef, it would be legal.

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  2. Witten,

    thank you, that's what I was getting at.

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  3. Anonymous Daniel said...

    As far as I can see some actions e.g. dressing up in a chicken suite and running down the street shouting 'Modal Concretism is psychedelic man!' are not moral wrongs though one would be hard-pressed to call them moral goods. If someone claims homosexuality is an active good then the emphasis is on them to argue their case; similarly if another party claims that it is a moral wrong then the burden of proof is on them to show why this is the case.

    To play devil's advocate: an ideology's being Fascist say's nothing about its being right or wrong unless of course one assumes we know a priori that Fascism is wrong. Whilst I would hold that it is this is not a luxury one should be inclined to grant Leftist ideologists - I really wish some unrepentant Nazi of a philosophical bent had turned round to Adorno and the Frankfurt School and asked them to prove that there was something objectively wrong with Nazism, the Holocaust et cetera et cetera.

    January 29, 2015 at 8:42 AM



    My guess is that if it, fascism, is not militaristically expansionist, and racially or ethically grounded, many leftists would have very little trouble with it. Communitarianism, might be seen at least in part, as one expression of this appetite on the part of some for immersion in a collective identity.

    A simple cult of social solidarity and sacrifice managed through the state apparatus right down to the individual, makes up a good portion of what is core to the fascist impulse.

    People get sidetracked by the paraphernalia: 'But ... but ... Nazi's like to dress up in costumes and march around to the beat of drums - demanding that everyone applaud and identify with them under penalty of law!'

    Well, if the video evidence is to be believed, so do many San Franciscans, apparently.

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  4. I got away from the concept of consent because that issue was distracting from my main point, but I never said consent between animals is either impossible or required. I just said that an animal couldn't consent to sex with a human, because an animal can't possibly consent to the full reality of what having a sexual relationship with a human entails. And humans shouldn't have sex with beings who cannot consent in that full way, whether that being is a child or a sheep.

    Now, it does follow from my position that rape can and does occur in the animal kingdom, and that when rapes occur in the animal kingdom, something unfortunate has occurred. But it does not follow from my position on consent that every sex act between animals is rape.

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  5. DNW

    Yes, it did help. I initially thought you were saying something very different.

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  6. "I got away from the concept of consent because that issue was distracting from my main point"

    Indeed, now why try to bring it back in? It is distracting and a bad line of argument. This much is shown in your comment here, since it is the "full reality of... sexual relationship with a human" that grounds the imperative here, not consent.

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  7. Chad said,

    " I just said that an animal couldn't consent to sex with a human, because an animal can't possibly consent to the full reality of what having a sexual relationship with a human entails ..."


    Gee, that sounds something akin to what "natural lawyers", are reported as saying about homosexually disordered minds.

    In the meantime Chad might enjoy browsing YouTube for videos on the history of the concept of positive liberty.

    Maybe I'll check back in later to see what, if anything, he gained from the exercise.

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  8. An awareness of the full reality of sexual relationships with a human entails is what consent requires. There's no such thing as consent where that awareness is missing. So I don't understand your take that consent isn't involved in the imperative.

    As to why I bring it back up, I'm defending myself from the accusation that my position requires me to believe that all sexual relationships between animals involves rape.

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  9. Blogger Chad Handley said...

    DNW

    Yes, it did help. I initially thought you were saying something very different.

    January 29, 2015 at 9:09 AM



    Well, good.

    I am, in all sincerity, very pleased.

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  10. "There's no such thing as consent where that awareness is missing. So I don't understand your take that consent isn't involved in the imperative."

    I did not say that consent is not involved.

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  11. "Gee, that sounds something akin to what "natural lawyers", are reported as saying about homosexually disordered minds."

    You think the minds of gays and lesbians are so disordered that they are neither capable of giving nor required to obtain consent?

    Because otherwise, what I said about animals sounds nothing like what natural lawyers say about "homosexually disordered minds."

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  12. Matt,

    This much is shown in your comment here, since it is the "full reality of... sexual relationship with a human" that grounds the imperative here, not consent.

    I'd go further with this, and maybe you could sketch what you'd think a possible reply could be to this.

    What is the 'full reality of a sexual relationship with a human' that an animal requires here, and why? The "full reality" of some human sexual relationships is "Both sides are physically and mentally willing. This may be fun for a bit, then it's over."

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  13. ...then humping cows will become legal. Which makes me wonder: does anyone know what kind of penalties for cow-humping are typically imposed at the present time? What kind of offence, legally speaking, is cow-humping, who has jurisdiction over such offences?

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  14. (I see Witten already pointed this out: "If cow humping was as popular as eating beef, it would be legal.")

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  15. Crude,

    I'm happy to follow your line of thinking here, and I don't feel the need to think of a reply!

    Chad,

    DNW's use of "disordered" is, perhaps, distracting, but his point, I take it, is the same as mine. What makes "consent" important is not that it is consensual, but that "full reality" that you allude to.

    As Crude's illustration suggests, that "full reality" is fuzzy. does "full reality" refer to human sexuality in the myriad ways in which it is expressed by all us billions of particular human beings throughout history, or does it mean more or less what the Natural Lawyer means? What we need is an account of that "full reality", and the relevance of consent hinges on that.

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  16. "At base, this is because lots of people like eating meat, and lots of people think having sex with animals is gross."

    I don't really think that's the case. Gross does not mean wrong. I would guess that many if not most of the people who support gay marriage think various forms of gay sex are gross. Whereas people don't just think bestiality is gross, they think it's wrong. I think people, even marginal people like lowly liberals, are capable of recognizing this distinction.

    I don't think a thing's being popular is sufficient to make it legal. Hard street drugs and internet piracy are nearly as popular as eating meat, and they're in no danger of becoming legal.

    There's more going on here than "we like this, let's figure out how to make it legal."

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  17. Chad Handley,

    Generally, I would say that a liberal is a person who believes that government has (or can have) an essential role to play in the lives of citizens beyond just policing and national security. That role could include protecting the rights of minorities, correcting historic and systemic wrongs, constructing a national healthcare system, etc. Basically, I would define a liberal, broadly, as a person who believes that the government should act, whenever it can, with the consent of the governed, to make life better for the majority without causing undo harm to a minority.

    Well, even Burke wrote of ordered liberty, and that which people do not impose on themselves by self-restraint needing to be imposed on them by an exterior entity. I think the conservative would just say that many of these are not areas (ie. like public health care) where the government can act to make life better for the majority (especially where they are considered downright harmful to it). I'm not convinced they would otherwise fall outside of your definition.

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  18. "What makes "consent" important is not that it is consensual but that "full reality" that you allude to."

    Huh? So, as long as the target of your sexual desire is a natural lawyer with an understanding of the "full reality" of sex, you can just pin her down and go to town on her, her explicit consent being basically beside the point?

    "As Crude's illustration suggests, that "full reality" is fuzzy. does "full reality" refer to human sexuality in the myriad ways in which it is expressed by all us billions of particular human beings throughout history, or does it mean more or less what the Natural Lawyer means? What we need is an account of that "full reality", and the relevance of consent hinges on that. "

    Well, it had better be something less than the full understanding of the natural lawyer, otherwise people who aren't natural lawyers can't give consent!

    Here's a first attempt at a definition of full reality:

    I would say the "full reality" entails a recognition the spectrum of commitment levels that sexual relationships within your society can entail (from anonymous hook-up all the way to life-long, indissoluble marriage), the implications and responsibilities of each place on the spectrum, and a rough agreement about where on that spectrum your sexual act should be placed.

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  19. Sorry. I wrote "[...] they would otherwise [...]", but I meant that even there, given the modal language in the definition (can, could, etc), conservatives wouldn't fall outside of the given definition.^

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  20. I would say the "full reality" entails a recognition the spectrum of commitment levels that sexual relationships within your society can entail (from anonymous hook-up all the way to life-long, indissoluble marriage), the implications and responsibilities of each place on the spectrum, and a rough agreement about where on that spectrum your sexual act should be placed.

    That's going to be pretty easy on the animal side of the equation.

    Spectrum of commitment levels entailed within their society: None.
    Implications and Responsibilities: None.
    Agreement about the spectrum: There's nothing to agree to.

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  21. Chad, I know this whole discussion might have everybody's blood up a little, but I can't believe, given your last comment, that you understand what I'm saying.

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  22. No, I don't understand what you're saying when you say the consensual part of consensus isn't important. Feel free to explain.

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  23. ha, I thought of a simple way to put this whole progressive-conservative issue:

    If you read an article that expressed sympathy for bestiality - say along the lines of, "hey, guys, I dunno it makes me squirm too, but maybe there's a case to be made for this sort of thing" - would you be more surprised to find it posted at 1. Salon.com? or 2. NRO?

    Would you call Salon "progressive"? Would you call NRO "conservative"?

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  24. Well, to begin: I did not say that the consent is not important

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  25. Feel free to go ahead and explain exactly what the fuck you are saying, fully, clearly and explicitly, instead of being so goddamn precious and coy with your every post?

    This is beyond tedious.

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  26. @ Chad, Daniel, John West, Matt Sheean

    Let me try to briefly meet this challenge.

    Assume that the political liberal believes in publicly reasonable character of gay marriage on Rawlsian grounds, and make your argument.

    A Rawlsian will claim that our laws and institutions should be arranged in such a way that provides the greatest benefit to the least well off. I believe most liberals would accept that being a sexual minority puts on in a disadvantaged group; one, for instance, might face ostracism or feel uncomfortable with the normativity of prevailing sexual mores. This is true quite apart from what the object of one's desire is. Someone who is attracted to those of the same sex will be uncomfortable in ways similar to someone who is attracted to animals; the person attracted to animals, in fact, is probably at a greater disadvantage.

    This, of course, does not entail that either homosexuality or bestiality is permissible (here I use permissibility in a 'right' sense rather than a 'good' sense, so someone might think something is permissible in this sense without being morally permissible - the distinction is not relevant for present purposes). It would be better for those who are least well off if their sexual desires were satisfied; but it might still be the case that their desires should not be satisfied because they are harmful to others. The political liberal will be committed to some sort of harm principle. Those activities which don't harm others are permissible (again, in this sense of 'permissible', so the distinction Chad earlier drew regarding Mill's harm principle is irrelevant; this is consistent with the version he thinks liberals would accept).

    So the political liberal will claim that gay marriage is publically reasonable because it improves the situation of some of those least well off (sexual minorities) without falling afoul of a harm principle. My claim is that the consistent political liberal will make the same judgment about bestiality.

    The objection, surely, will be that bestiality does fall afoul of a harm principle. The common claim is that bestiality necessarily harms the animal, perhaps because animals cannot consent to humans. Here I simply claim that there are several responses that someone who would like to engage in bestiality could give. They can claim that animals can (and sometimes do) consent to humans. They will point out that animals can be killed for human consumption (and therefore pleasure), and many political liberals are not vegetarians. They will point out that dairy products are commercially produced using by artificial insemination and semen extraction (i.e. by violating the sexual consent of animals), and many political liberals are not vegans. The person who wants to engage in bestiality can claim: It is better for him (a member of the least well off) that his sexual desires be satisfied than it is for the millions of people (mostly not the least well off) that they have their culinary desires satisfied; furthermore, he claims that it is better for the animal.

    How would a liberal respond to this? One route would be to accept that consistency requires he be a vegan. He might deny the claims that animals can give consent, though this involves bringing in a controverted metaphysical thesis from philosophy of mind, which does not make his position very politically liberal.

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  27. Can he rule in favor of gay marriage but against bestiality on firmer ground? Let us consider some of the suggestions.

    Daniel: [I]t would seem intuitively obvious that there is a difference between Man and all other species that we know of in that the former possesses a level of noetic awareness, rational-intellective consciousness* for want of a less awkward term, and that the defender of homosexuality would base the non-parity of this activity with bestiality on that. By those standards alone though I see no way of ruling out consensual incest and interbreeding with another race of Rational Animals should humanity encounter them.

    Daniel: With that distinction in mind one might attack the covertly Naturalistic idea that sexuality is the same in kind between Man/Rational Animals and non-rational one. They might claim because of the meaning of the Other (other self) involved that ‘sex proper’ can only occur between rational agents and that anything else is at best sexual by analogy or at worst just masturbation. That alone of course goes no further in deciding whether homosexuality, heterosexuality or masturbation is wrong or right (they might go along the lines of then arguing that it can count as a good between two rational agents because of a phenomenology of meaning they can share).

    Matt Sheean: I mentioned R Scruton before, and your latest comment describes his position: that sex is, by nature, part of an "I, Thou" relation. He endorses homosexual romance by this principle, and excludes bestiality, masturbation (for the most part) and such by the same.

    Chad: I just said that an animal couldn't consent to sex with a human, because an animal can't possibly consent to the full reality of what having a sexual relationship with a human entails. And humans shouldn't have sex with beings who cannot consent in that full way, whether that being is a child or a sheep.

    Here I believe there are problems. As I mentioned earlier, I view the predominant, contemporary Western liberal position to be a lot like Parfit's self-interest theory. It is situated in between purer theories - thoroughgoing sexual libertinism and traditional sexual morality - because it would like to draw "mixed" distinctions, and consequently it faces challenges from both sides. Its attempt to meet one challenge requires that it adopt principles that make it harder to meet the other.

    The general thrust of the positions here is to try to bring some metaphysical significance into sex. It is to talk of "noetic awareness, rational-intellective consciousness," "the Other," "a phenomenology of meaning," "an 'I, Thou' relation" and "the full reality of what having a sexual relationship with a human entails." What the political liberal has to explain is: Why are appeals to these deep metaphysical theses publically reasonable when appeals (by the traditional sexual moralist) to final causality or one-flesh union are not publically reasonable? These appeals are, to say the least, terribly ad hoc.

    But the political liberal here is in a far worse position than the traditional sexual moralist, who is at least consistent. Political liberalism is meant to reach political conclusions even in the presence of metaphysical disagreement. He aims to rule out the bringing in of controversial metaphysical theses which, it is claimed, have the consequence that the sexual minority should not receive political affirmation, even if, in politically liberal terms, that would improve his situation, and he is least well off.

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  28. To nitpick about the particular proposals: The zoophile might freely admit that there is a difference in kind for sexuality between rational agents and between a rational agent and a non-rational one. He requires the political liberal to tell him why there is a substantive difference here, and why the distinction is more relevant (and politically reasonable) than the difference in kind between man-woman sex and man-man or woman-woman sex. Maybe the zoophile is willing to concede (at least for the sake of argument) that what he wants to engage in is not 'sex proper' or is akin to masturbation. He asks so what? The traditional moralist stands by, waiting for the political liberal to make metaphysical appeals to which his political liberalism does not entitle him.

    I think Matt is quite right to point out that a lot rides on what "the full reality of what having a sexual relationship with a human entails." This is next to contentless. For the traditional moralist is happy to say: In a homosexual relationship, you will not witness what the full reality of what having a sexual relationship with a human entails, for (says the old natural lawyer) we are directed toward the other sex for the purpose of reproduction and the education of children and (says the new natural lawyer) the full reality of huma sexual relation is found in the one-flesh union. So, says the traditional moralist, by that criterion, homosexuals cannot consent to each other!

    This is, of course, a bit of a joke, but the point stands. The political liberal has (with great humility) imposed on himself the restriction of abstaining from such metaphysical principles in public deliberation. We will hold him to that. His invoking of abstract metaphysical theses in order to restrict the activity of the zoophile is like the traditional moralist's invoking of abstract metaphysical theses in order to restrict the activity of the homosexual. But the traditional moralist is, at least, acting in a way that is consistent with his view of the polity.

    Witten: So telling someone animals can't legally consent to sex, therefore you shouldn't be banging rover, is totally non-problematic. And if they start going on about why can't they fuck their dog if they can buy beef at the supermarket, it's an exercise in point missing. As the answer is: the legal principles we use to decide what kind of sex is allowed are different than the legal principles we use to decide what kind of food-production is allowed. At base, this is because lots of people like eating meat, and lots of people think having sex with animals is gross. If that inconsistency bothers you, you can stop buying beef, but you still can't hump a cow.

    The funny thing about this point is that it concedes everything. Anyway, I don't think that any reflective or intelligent liberals would take this position. It would follow, for instance, that almost all sexual repression was OK. Back when lots of people thought homosexuality was gross, it was OK that they treated homosexuals like zoophiles.

    Of course, I might agree with you that "[i]f cow humping was as popular as eating beef, it would be legal." But slavery was legal back when it was popular. (Though I suppose it didn't become thoroughly unpopular until it became illegal!)

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  29. I'm currently reading through your responses, Greg. But preliminarily, I'd like to thank you for actually presenting an argument rather than endlessly hinting at one.

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  30. Chad, I resent your tone. My intent has been efficiency in expressing my thoughts, not coyness, and I have not treated you so harshly.

    As for what I am saying,

    That I should procure consent from you, say, before making use of some item of yours, follows from your ownership of that item. Consent is not the principle here, ownership is. Does that help?


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  31. Much of what I've just posted is just repeating things I have said earlier.

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  32. I'd add as well that Greg understood what I was saying, as he notes,

    "I think Matt is quite right to point out that a lot rides on what "the full reality of what having a sexual relationship with a human entails." This is next to contentless"

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  33. Chad Handley,

    I won't be able to respond for a while after this post, but in the spirit of making my most recent point as explicit as possible:

    (1) Your definition of liberal* defines Edmund Burke's politic as liberal.
    (2) Edmund Burke's politic is the paradigmatic conservative politic.
    (3) Hence, on your definition, the paradigmatic conservative politic is liberal.
    (4) Any definition of liberal that defines the paradigmatic conservative politic as liberal is far too broad.
    (5) Therefore, your definition of liberal is far too broad.

    For (1), see my post on Jan. 29 at 10:02 AM and the relevant correction at 10:15 AM (quoted here with appropriate edits for ease of reference):

    Well, even Burke wrote of ordered liberty, and that which people do not impose on themselves by self-restraint needing to be imposed on them by an exterior entity. I think the [Burkean] conservative would just say that many of these [areas] (ie. Like public health care) are not areas where the government can act to make life better for the majority (especially where they are considered downright harmful to it). In other words, [given the modal language in your definition of liberal, I think even consistent Burkean conservatives would fall inside of it.]

    (2) and (4) are, I think, uncontroversial.


    *I quote that here for ease of reference:

    Generally, I would say that a liberal is a person who believes that government has (or can have) an essential role to play in the lives of citizens beyond just policing and national security. That role could include protecting the rights of minorities, correcting historic and systemic wrongs, constructing a national healthcare system, etc. Basically, I would define a liberal, broadly, as a person who believes that the government should act, whenever it can, with the consent of the governed, to make life better for the majority without causing undo harm to a minority.

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  34. I should note that I think the comprehensive (as opposed to political liberal) has a better shot at resisting bestiality, since he can argue for comprehensive conceptions of marriage and sexual activity from metaphysical considerations, whereas the political liberal can't.

    But then, one sort of comprehensive liberal, the consequentialist, is apt to go the way of Singer.

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  35. Chad says, "I don't really think that's the case. Gross does not mean wrong. I would guess that many if not most of the people who support gay marriage think various forms of gay sex are gross. Whereas people don't just think bestiality is gross, they think it's wrong. I think people, even marginal people like lowly liberals, are capable of recognizing this distinction."

    And how exactly would "marginal people like lowly liberals" make that distinction again?

    On the basis of matching wills? On the basis of "informed" consent?

    The German autophagous masochist and his sexual cannibal partner apparently had matching wills; along with a relatively full understanding of the potential consequences in chopping off and fricasseeing the sex organ of the masochist.

    Assuming the masochist founder of the feast had not died of exsanguination, but had survived, would you say that their behavior was demonstrably wrong and properly illegal, or just "gross", from your, preponderant, if admittedly subjective, point of view?

    And if you said it was wrong and worthy of the notice and sanctioning of the law, how would you demonstrate that?

    Anyone can float above the issue by adopting, say, a distanced medical perspective Chad ... "It's just blood" ... but that doesn't say much about "right and wrong", much less law.

    As you know, and as I have mentioned here numerous times, Blackstone supposedly (I cannot personally find the phrase in his Commentaries) stated that the law is the embodiment of the moral sensibility of the people.

    You obviously object to categorically granting that principle as proper, on some kind of social-justice-for-numerical-minorities, grounds.

    Yet you are not a "natural lawyer"; nor so you say, someone willing to take your divine command theory of morals and incorporate it into the legal fabric of the state.

    So, how do you really determine for yourself what is or should be, legally permissible and not ...?

    As you on occasion make reference to cultural contexts as conditioning and defining legal permissability, would you then agree, for example: In a case where a state was successfully set up with no homosexual participants, and no persons in the body politic carrying whatever genetic traits (ex hypothesi) it might be that lead to homosexual offspring; that such a state could then properly outlaw all homosexual behavior and practice, and exclude such person from entry into, or access to, or residence within, the polity?

    Or, do you really argue ('make your assertions' is more like it) from some other unstated principle ... or preference, in a kind of covert and pseudo-natural lawyer manner, while overtly arguing against natural lawyers?


    If you take an honest look at your arguments, I think you will agree it is this latter that describes what you are doing.

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  36. I don't know to what extent I should get into this debate since I am not a liberal and hate secular theorists like Rawls and co. O well why not go for it and alienate myself with both Naturalists and Christians by claiming straight-out that the Final Cause of Man is Transcendence not this worldly-perfection.

    @Greg,

    these appeals are, to say the least, terribly ad hoc.

    I do not see why this should be the case at all. If it was just some off-the-cuff remark thrown up to save the permissibility of homosexuality then yes but from any philosopher worth his salt it is going to be part of a larger frame-work. Naturally one would say similar metaphysical considerations apply to all or at least most other human/rational activities e.g. one might say non-rational animals can't experience hatred proper or sin. For me at least the concern is not to do with homosexuality but that Natural Law theory fails to justice to even heterosexual love.

    why should deep metaphysical theses publically reasonable when appeals (by the traditional sexual moralist) to final causality or one-flesh union are not publically reasonable?

    I don't know what you mean about theses being publically reasonable but if you mean that the proponent of the position you are criticising should answer questions on those topics then I agree.

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  37. @Chad Handley

    This discussion seems to have become rather circular.

    Could you expound you views a little especially where you think there is a difference between your liberalism/progressive stance and that of the main stream Left?

    Also are you using these terms differently? What do you mean when you say Christians are progressive?

    I'm not on the 'Left' or the 'Right' myself and the terms don't apply in Catholic Theology at all, nor do conservative or liberal.

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  38. Ah my apologies I think we have been talking at cross purposes here.

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  39. "They will point out that animals can be killed for human consumption (and therefore pleasure), and many political liberals are not vegetarians. They will point out that dairy products are commercially produced using by artificial insemination and semen extraction (i.e. by violating the sexual consent of animals), and many political liberals are not vegans"

    As I said before, the Rawlsian could accept that where more important issues are at stake, such as the prevention of mass starvation and malnutrition among large numbers of humans, considerations of animal consent can be overridden. There are no such issues at stake with regard to bestiality.

    That might imply that we should all cut down our consumption of meat as much as we can without risking starvation or malnutrition, but it would preserve a distinct moral difference between meat consumption and bestiality.

    " He might deny the claims that animals can give consent, though this involves bringing in a controverted metaphysical thesis from philosophy of mind, which does not make his position very politically liberal."

    Wouldn't the claim that animals can consent also involve bringing in some kind of metaphysical thesis? Or is that supposed to be some kind of metaphysically neutral given?

    As I define consent, animals are incapable of giving it by definition. It requires an understanding of the relationship implied in the sexual act, which animals obviously can't have. I think this understanding of consent is less metaphysically exotic than the claim that they can consent.

    "Why are appeals to these deep metaphysical theses publically reasonable when appeals (by the traditional sexual moralist) to final causality or one-flesh union are not publically reasonable? These appeals are, to say the least, terribly ad hoc."

    I don't think anything is required beyond the reality that animals can't consent, which is much more publicly reasonable than the claims of natural law.

    "Political liberalism is meant to reach political conclusions even in the presence of metaphysical disagreement. He aims to rule out the bringing in of controversial metaphysical theses "

    Again, all this depends on your contention that the idea that animals can't consent is controversial. It's not.

    I don't really feel like you've accomplished much here, except to assert that the belief that animals can consent is more publicly reasonable than the claim they can't. But you've completely sidestepped the obligation to justify that claim, which is highly dubious. If a belief that animals can't consent requires such an idiosyncratic metaphysical commitment, why is agreement on it nearly universal?

    Rawls' theory doesn't require that you completely eliminate all metaphysical propositions, justice and fairness are themselves metaphysical propositions. It merely requires that, so far as possible, you stick to the metaphysical positions that are most widely available and agreed upon.

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  40. "And how exactly would "marginal people like lowly liberals" make that distinction again?"

    Divine Command theory.

    "Assuming the masochist founder of the feast had not died of exsanguination, but had survived, would you say that their behavior was demonstrably wrong and properly illegal, or just "gross", from your, preponderant, if admittedly subjective, point of view?"

    Wrong and gross, but not illegal unless the masochist presses charges.

    This behavior only differs from more pedestrian sadomasochist sex in degree.

    "So, how do you really determine for yourself what is or should be, legally permissible and not ...?"

    Broadly Rawlsian considerations.

    "As you on occasion make reference to cultural contexts as conditioning and defining legal permissability, would you then agree, for example: In a case where a state was successfully set up with no homosexual participants, and no persons in the body politic carrying whatever genetic traits (ex hypothesi) it might be that lead to homosexual offspring; that such a state could then properly outlaw all homosexual behavior and practice, and exclude such person from entry into, or access to, or residence within, the polity?"

    I think such a state would be less just than a state which allowed those things.

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  41. Greg

    I didn't say it was OK to make things illegal because people think it's gross (read that as immoral), I was saying that is in fact why the law is what it is. When sodomy was illegal it because people thought it was immoral, when a critical mass changed their minds, it became legal, that's just how the law often works.

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  42. @Chad Handley

    You've mostly been 'attacked' because you said you were 'progressive'. I remember you from before but not anything you have ever said so I have no axe to grind.


    So setting that all to the side can you answer the question above I posted and also what your own views are on bestiality in more detail?

    I do agree that the 'Left' have certain tendencies and groups that aim towards this kind of thing more but of course you will find it across the spectrum also. Any time I have ever heard of parties or groups promoting child abuse or that of 'iner species loving' it has always without exception been from a force that explicitly claims to be setting aside old taboos for the sake of progress; always claiming to be liberal leaning progressive.

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  43. "So setting that all to the side can you answer the question above I posted and also what your own views are on bestiality in more detail?"

    No, sorry. I don't have the time to respond to the people I'm already responding to. Not expanding my commitment to this conversation.

    I'll only say this: I've rarely seen claims for White Pride that didn't come from conservatives, but that doesn't mean it would be fair to say that support for White Supremacy is a typical or common or widespread or representative conservative idea.

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  44. "I've rarely seen claims for White Pride that didn't come from conservatives, but that doesn't mean it would be fair to say that support for White Supremacy is a typical or common or widespread or representative conservative idea."

    I don't see why you wouldn't say, though, that there are aspects of conservatism that predispose it toward this sort of vice. That's all, as I understand it, anybody is saying here about progressivism - that there is a particular sort of evil that is more at home in that sort of ideological stew than in the conservative one.

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  45. @Chad

    No, sorry. I don't have the time to respond to the people I'm already responding to. Not expanding my commitment to this conversation.

    Well I thought I was greatly simplifying things for you in relation to those conversations because as of yet I'm not sure that you have explicitly laid out your position - which leaves you able to simply dismiss other people as offering straw men.

    Let me specify that 'moral' liberals do indeed fit the description and direction I offered - although obviously not all of them hold the same positions. It is hard to split Moral and Far Far Left Liberalism. Also American conservatism and the 'right' make zero sense to people not from America or a place of similar/close culture. They come across as a self parody at times (some aspects of the American Right). I can hold to small government libertarian views of some kind and be a moral conservative but not a Far Left 'pro-whatever I want but dare you stand in my way then I will see you in court' and a moral conservative .

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  46. So... Socialism that was Left Wing right?

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  47. @Chad,

    "
    I'll only say this: I've rarely seen claims for White Pride that didn't come from conservatives, but that doesn't mean it would be fair to say that support for White Supremacy is a typical or common or widespread or representative conservative idea."


    Historical ignorance rears its ugly head.

    Eugenics was a left wing idea based on Darwinism. It's the left's blindness that makes it so potent to the most extreme and perverse manipulations. If you want to see the modern successor to Nazi racism all you have to do is read up on transhumanism, which ideology of the progressive brand is arguably the number one ideological threat and danger to humanity today.

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  48. "I don't see why you wouldn't say, though, that there are aspects of conservatism that predispose it toward this sort of vice"

    So, I'm assuming you missed the part of the conversation where Crude and Greg were insisting that Singer's views on bestiality and infanticide were more widely-known and accepted within liberalism than David Duke's views on race were within conservatism.

    I think White Supremacy is a historical accident peculiar to the US and Western Europe. I don't think it's a notion that naturally arises out of conservative ideology. There's nothing essential to conservatism that says that the dominant population of any state should be superior to any other population.

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  49. Margaret Sanger was/is very mainstream Left as I understand it. What were her views on race again? Now if a progressive on the Left feels at liberty to denounce her views on race etc. I am all too happy to hold no association between the two.

    Stumbled on this link [and others but can't vouch for the sites - they could be awful];

    http://www.etherzone.com/2002/mors073002.shtml





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  50. Chad

    My understanding was that Crude made a distinction between publicly accepting/championing and some sort of private acceptance. Crude made this distinction in response to Greg, who noted that Singer's views are outrageous to most "liberals." Crude was questioning whether Singer's views really are "outrageous to most liberals"

    The discussion then turned to the question of whether or not there were principles embedded in progressivism - e.g. a tendency toward reductionism, anti-essentialism, etc - that lead down a path, intellectually speaking, toward conclusions like "there are morally appropriate contexts for bestiality."

    You then entered in with the retort that a lot of progressives you know are big on consent, with the assertion that this precluded an endorsement of bestiality. It's been pointed out ad naseam since then that consent is just the sort of flimsy, reductive principle that makes way for the eventual endorsement, however reluctant, of certain unseemly behaviors.

    As for why David Duke might garner support from a niche group of conservatives, I'd venture, off the cuff, that he represents a way of doing things that, in context, is more in line with a set of traditions - and conservatives cotton to tradition (Timocrates is right to point out, though, that there is an especially nasty brand of progressivist racism such as the kind manifest in late 19th, early 20th century "progressives").

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  51. Good grief, I say that I don't think that racism is natural to conservatism or to any political view, and I get bombarded with claims about the racism of the left.

    You guys just have pent up anger against liberals, and you unleash it indiscriminately against any liberal who wanders through, regardless of what they actually say.

    Racism is not an outgrowth of liberalism or conservatism, it's an outgrowth of the colonialism both sides enthusiastically supported.

    I am not interested in being bombarded with every anti-liberal blunt object you're all so frothing at the mouth to lob. I'm ignoring for the rest of this conversation anyone who says anything about race to me from this post forward.

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  52. Timocrates wrote

    Historical ignorance rears its ugly head.

    Eugenics was a left wing idea based on Darwinism. It's the left's blindness that makes it so potent to the most extreme and perverse manipulations. If you want to see the modern successor to Nazi racism all you have to do is read up on transhumanism, which ideology of the progressive brand is arguably the number one ideological threat and danger to humanity today.


    Yes! Finally someone talking about the really serious socio-political issues. Transhumanists like Zoltan Istvan or Ray Kurzweil come out with remarks like 'The transhumanist must stop at nothing to achive omnipotence' and other gems which quite frankly would be considered too cliché for mainstream science fiction and the liberal (socialistic-liberal) press lap it up.

    Darwinist political ideology can to some extent be seen as an extension of the British liberal tradition of unfettered competition a la Adam Smith and friends.

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  53. @Daniel,

    "Darwinist political ideology can to some extent be seen as an extension of the British liberal tradition of unfettered competition a la Adam Smith and friends. "

    Yes.

    Nazism and Communism were born of the inner tensions in the liberal tradition coupled with man's desire to be rationally coherent, which rational nature of his also craves a domination or supremacy over purely material being especially. This is why we curse the cold and the rain, say. Consequently those ideologies that lend promise or hope to i) unfettered power over matter and ii) a rationally coherent account of knowledge (a scientism usually today given the context of the scientific revolution) will be embraced. However, these also open up room for all sorts of perversions, especially totalitarianism in democratic societies and a messianic secularism that can easily result in a cult of the leader(ship) as in fact we did see in both Communist societies as well as, of course, fascist ones.

    The number one error that gave impetus to the all the extremes in Nazi ideology was the equation in its political and ideological platform of the common good with the good of the state, such that the common good was subservient to the good of the State rather than vice-versa. This lead necessarily to the idolatry of the state and the race and the like, coupled rationally with specious appeals to contemporary "science" of radical Darwinism and the philosophy of Nietzche, which of course included a fundamental perversion (subordinating the intellect or rational good to the will).

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  54. Chad Handley said...


    "As you on occasion make reference to cultural contexts as conditioning and defining legal permissibility, would you then agree, for example: In a case where a state was successfully set up with no homosexual participants, and no persons in the body politic carrying whatever genetic traits (ex hypothesi) it might be that lead to homosexual offspring; that such a state could then properly outlaw all homosexual behavior and practice, and exclude such person from entry into, or access to, or residence within, the polity?"

    I think such a state would be less just than a state which allowed those things.

    January 29, 2015 at 11:43 AM



    Less just? On the basis of what particular moral entitlement, which is grounded how, exactly?

    Don't tell me Divine command ... we are talking your (and I deliberately use the possessive pronoun with regard to Chad) secular state here, not a theocracy.

    Unless that is what you now wish to argue for?

    I'm not even sure how you purport to know what all the Divine commands are. Which particular edition of the Divine Canons are you using, Chad?

    And as far as Rawls goes, you are the first person I have noticed posting here, who actually seems to believe that Rawls' Theory of Justice arguments are not in point of fact: a, contemptibly circular, b, obviously question begging, and c, ultimately and as a result thereof, intellectually fraudulent.

    What in the effen world can terms such as "fair" and "just" even mean as supposed moral imperatives, if they are not anchored in some conditioning human nature and/or intrinsic teleology? What is this, a planned "lottery" which will redo the results of nature's lottery?

    Why? Oh, solidarity. Why that? Because they deserve it. How do you know? Because it's only "fair". What is "fair"? Fair is that they should be appreciated and esteemed. Why should I care about that? Because if you were not who and what you are, you would want what those who are not you, want from you. Why should I live my life subject to some pretend set of circumstamces? Because it's only fair. Yada yada yada ...

    Rawls transparently comic attempt to levitate himself out of this predicament through the magic power provided by a fictive original position, and a veil of ignorance, is justifiably derided as a bit of clerical pantomime. He should have dressed himself in a star bedecked robe and a conical gold foil hat to add to the effect. Maybe a wand to wave as well.

    Reminds me of Sam Harris' painfully embarrassing pronouncement that all you had to do in order to demonstrate that objective values existed in a world without inherent value, was to acknowledge that it really would be objectively bad for someone to suffer excruciating pain for ... etc, etc.


    Which at the most generous take, acknowledges as even Ayers granted, that you are basically granting as fact that someone has stated a preference for, or aversion to such and such, and that that statement of preference or aversion could be more or less verified according to the rules then allowed as arbitrating the question as to whether a given statement about some state of affairs had any positive meaning or sense. Doesn't tell you a thing about right or wrong or just, according to their own rules of evidence.

    Yeah, Rawls: just like magic. All we have to do is to agree that fair is fair and then promise not to think about it anymore after that.

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  55. It always worries me when a clearly very smart person makes an obvious blunder. I can't help thinking either that something has been overlooked, or that we need a reason for them blundering. (e.g. Dawkins is overlooking a whole chunk of stuff when he claims that the very smart Aquinas blundered.)

    Singer is certainly a very smart person. Feser's argument that Singer blundered is convincing.

    So what has been overlooked, or why did the very smart Singer blunder?

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  56. Anonymous:

    "Singer is certainly a very smart person. Feser's argument that Singer blundered is convincing.

    So what has been overlooked, or why did the very smart Singer blunder?"


    Great intelligence, unless accompanied by humility and a genuine love of truth, isn't helpful in discovering what is true. In fact, it's more often a hindrance, since the intelligent person can come up with clever arguments to prop up his own prejudices and non-rational desires when a less intelligent person would have to concede defeat and accept the true argument. So in a way it's not really surprising that brilliant people go astray: it's easier for them to do so and to resist finding the right path again.

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  57. @ Daniel

    If it was just some off-the-cuff remark thrown up to save the permissibility of homosexuality then yes but from any philosopher worth his salt it is going to be part of a larger frame-work.
    [...]
    I don't know what you mean about theses being publically reasonable but if you mean that the proponent of the position you are criticising should answer questions on those topics then I agree.


    I agree they could be made to be parts of larger frameworks; that would be a comprehensive liberalism. But I am using 'political liberalism' and 'public reason' in their technical, Rawlsian senses.

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  58. @ Chad

    As I said before, the Rawlsian could accept that where more important issues are at stake, such as the prevention of mass starvation and malnutrition among large numbers of humans, considerations of animal consent can be overridden. There are no such issues at stake with regard to bestiality.

    That might imply that we should all cut down our consumption of meat as much as we can without risking starvation or malnutrition, but it would preserve a distinct moral difference between meat consumption and bestiality.


    What are the criteria for "more important issues"? For example, suppose zoophiles commit suicide at a high rate. I don't know whether that is true but I would be surprised if it weren't.* The Rawlsian is willing to set aside consent where human lives are at risk in one case; presumably he is willing to set aside consent in the other.

    That there are few zoophiles is obviously a poor objection here, for that would imply only that there are fewer animals harmed by them.

    * Strictly speaking, it doesn't matter whether it is true. For just suppose that there were a high suicide rate among zoophiles. Would that make the difference of whether the political liberal supports bestiality?

    Wouldn't the claim that animals can consent also involve bringing in some kind of metaphysical thesis? Or is that supposed to be some kind of metaphysically neutral given?

    Both are metaphysical theses. I expect the Rawlsian would respond as he does in the case of abortion and gay marriage, which also involve controverted metaphysical theses: favoring the interest of the least well off. In this case the sexual minority is the least well off.

    This has not really been discussed a lot, but in Rawlsian liberalism, the subjects of rights are sufficiently self-aware and intelligent deliberators; that is, not animals.

    As I define consent, animals are incapable of giving it by definition. It requires an understanding of the relationship implied in the sexual act, which animals obviously can't have. I think this understanding of consent is less metaphysically exotic than the claim that they can consent.

    As I've pointed out, this understanding of consent is in fact pretty exotic. Animals don't "understand" generally. So they don't understand their relationships with other animals either. If you weaken the sense of "understand" enough to make this claim work, then it ceases to be clear that animals can't understand a relationship with a human; for all they would have to "understand" is what it is like to be in a human-animal relationship (in a way similar to the way they "understand" animal-animal relationships).

    Rawls' theory doesn't require that you completely eliminate all metaphysical propositions, justice and fairness are themselves metaphysical propositions. It merely requires that, so far as possible, you stick to the metaphysical positions that are most widely available and agreed upon.

    This isn't true. Rawls aims, explicitly, to construct a conception of justice that is "political, not metaphysical." That is the aim of his project. A liberalism rooted in his political arguments can command assent; he self-consciously prevents himself from making appeals from the standpoint of comprehensive liberalism. So he would not simply say that the metaphysical positions that are most widely agreed upon are those that we use; that actually would be a bit counterproductive, given his commitment to the least well off - a group that certainly need not be the largest group.

    One could ask whether Rawls is consistent in this self-imposed handicap. I would say his views on abortion are testament to the fact that he is not, and his political liberalism is really a way to advance a comprehensive liberalism more sneakily. But that is another topic.

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  59. Note, I haven't bothered raising the obvious objection that there would not be mass starvation and malnutrition if meat consumption were substantially reduced, or even eliminated in developed countries. That is part of the reason why Singer is a vegan who supports bestiality. If we are strictly to weigh "pre-moral goods" against "pre-moral evils" in consequentialist fashion, it is far from obvious that bestiality is the problem here.

    And, in any case, what you would be conceding here would be that the fact that we are permitted to consume meat but not to have sex with animals is a contingent matter. If there were no lack of meat alternatives, but (say) zoophiles committed suicide at high rates, it would follow that the consent-argument would favor bestiality over meat consumption! And yet you claim that there is nothing in liberalism per se that makes it more hospitable to bestiality than other worldviews!

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  60. I also should say that I probably won't get another chance to respond this weekend.

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  61. One of the main problems in this discussion is Chad appears to oppose discerning patterns of assumptions and beliefs amongst liberals. He is correct that liberals often have differing moral beliefs and assumptions - indeed, liberalism is often contradictory and inconsistent (more so than usual amongst human systems of thought) - but contemporary liberalism can be identified with certain common of dominant moral and philosophical beliefs. If this wasn't the case then discussions like this would be pointless, which is almost the case as Chad seems to imply at times that there is basically nothing that separates liberals and conservatives beyond their chosen appellations, like blues and greens of the Byzantine mob.

    Heck, even the actual policies Chad has used to define conservatism are suspect. A conservative can support national healthcare. A British conservative does not have think the NHS must be abolished. He will be cautious about it, want to make sure it is run efficiently and means tested though. The same goes for limited government. All conservatives, even the most reactionary and illiberal, have a great concern for intermediate social associations and for a degree of individual liberty and responsibility. But it is certainly not the case a conservative has to believe in very limited government. Many European, reactionary conservatives, like Maistre or Metternich, cannot really be said to believe in limited government in quite the same way as many contemporary American conservatives.

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  62. Chad writes,


    I don't think anything is required beyond the reality that animals can't consent, which is much more publicly reasonable than the claims of natural law.

    The problem is that when you say this you don't seem a chain of actual reasoning shows it to be publically reasonable. What you mean is simply that most people, bred on contemporary moral and political beliefs and assumptions, will probably feel, though not - in most cases - actually reason, that animals cannot consent. The moment one subjects the question to a more philosophical analysis, as Greg is doing, it becomes quite problematic.

    Daniel writes,

    O well why not go for it and alienate myself with both Naturalists and Christians by claiming straight-out that the Final Cause of Man is Transcendence not this worldly-perfection.

    I agree. I think it is the mark of the true conservative, or at least Tory, to think that man's transcendent purpose and religion is the most important object of life and politics. After that I think the priority of the conservative must be what T.S Eliot and Russell Kirk called the permanent things: family, community, friendship, beauty, nature, and all the perennial virtues and relationships of human life. I very suspicious of a conservatism that sees technological progress or economic growth or anything of that sort as more than marginally valuable.

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  63. Daniel writes: O well why not go for it and alienate myself with both Naturalists and Christians by claiming straight-out that the Final Cause of Man is Transcendence not this worldly-perfection.

    Why does this claim alienate one from Christians?

    Jeremy Taylor writes: I think it is the mark of the true conservative, or at least Tory, to think that man's transcendent purpose and religion is the most important object of life and politics.

    Needless to say, you don't include David Cameron or Stephen Harper as Tories in this paragraph, right?

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  64. I know little about Stephen Harper or Canadian politics. I consider Mr. Slippery the worst British PM in the last few decades (except for the abomination that is the Blair creature, of course). I actually preferred Gordon Brown.

    I agree with Peter Hitchens that UKIP is a shambolic Dad's Army led by a used car salesman, but if I were in Britain at the time of the general election, I would certainly vote UKIP.

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  65. And, yes, obviously I don't think of Cameron as a Tory or conservative.

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  66. I know little about Stephen Harper or Canadian politics. I consider Mr. Slippery the worst British PM in the last few decades (except for the abomination that is the Blair creature, of course). I actually preferred Gordon Brown.

    Actually, I think Dodgy Dave is much worse than Mr. Harper, who still at least defends some conservative-seeming positions. The problem is I'm certain that if the NDP (think Old Labour) and the Liberals (think New Labour) ever stop splitting the left vote, Mr. Harper will abandon what is left of his conservative-ness in a heartbeat.

    And, yes, obviously I don't think of Cameron as a Tory or conservative.

    I caught that part.

    It's good to see there is still a proper conservative tradition alive somewhere in Britain.

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  67. "I don't think anything is required beyond the reality that animals can't consent, which is much more publicly reasonable than the claims of natural law."

    People do a lot of things without the consent of any animals under their ownership, even to the point of euthanaising or butchering their pet or livestock; why is consent, irrelevant in every other situation involving pets and livestock, paramount here? Because liberals, when challenged with the rightness or wrongness of sex in this or that circumstance, have no other leg to stand on other than consent. Consent is the slip that covers the poverty of their sexual morality.

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  68. BTW, Peter Singer, was recently awarded the Companion of the Order of Australia, the highest honour in 2012. Claims that he is a fringe figure among progressives are greatly exaggerated.

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  69. I did not know that about the Companion Order of Australia. Sort of puts the harhs attacks on Prince Philip's recent Australian knighthood into a new light.

    John West,

    One of the leading, thoughtful actually conservative figures in Britain today is HRH Prince Charles. It is a shame he will have no little say in actually ruling the country.

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  70. "I did not know that about the Companion Order of Australia. Sort of puts the harhs attacks on Prince Philip's recent Australian knighthood into a new light."

    Very true. The more so since Hawke honoured Prince Philip with a Companion of the Order of Australia in 1988, the Year of Australia's bicentennary.

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  71. But the new people who we bring about through sex are, of course, precisely our children. Hence sex is very morally significant indeed.

    This implies that future possible people in general are the object of our morality. I do not have problem with this but in my opinion it opens the gate more than maybe somebody would like. I have in mind for example Parfit´s example of glass fragment intentionally left somewhere in wood which wounds some future child stepping on it after years: the one who left the fragment in the wood years ago is in Parfit´s eyes morally responsible for child´s injury.

    Sexual or romantic passion can prevent people from seeing that a certain person is simply not a suitable marriage partner or someone with whom to have children.

    This also has indirect serious consequences, given that origin essentialism is true (I hope it isn´t). Because if in such a case we say "this partner is not suitable for you and you should neither marry him/her, nor have sex with him/her", we also implicitely say "it is good that your possible future children, who could be conceived only from you two, never become actual", so it says that for some (future possible) people it is not good to exist. In connection with this I always come to my hypotetical example: five origin essentialists by accident encounter a strong, muscled man, raping girl in her fertile period and he is 5 second before ejaculation. Origin essentialists believe that the currently potential new person who would be conceived from this rape (and who will be in future moved by others to thank God for creating him, regardless the way he came into being - rape in this case) would otherwise never come into existence. Now they may stay before the dillema: to tear or not to tear the rapist off?

    BTW, Maybe the first theological question that seriously bothered me was whether the unhappy love is the result of original sin or if it would exist regardless of original sin. I still very much hope that first option is true.

    and the remedying of concupiscence

    This frustrates me a lot. If matrimony is a being (ens) then it has an essence which has to be eternal and necessary in some sense. I hope that this third goal of matrimony - remedying of concupiscence - doesn´t belong to the essence of matrimony. Why? Because if it would then it would mean that also (sinful, from the catholic point of view) concupiscence is something necessary and that a man could not have avoid sin. Lest there would be possible explanation such as that God gave the matrimony to people in order to remedy the concupiscence only per accidens, i.e. fully depending on that the original sin was commited.

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  72. @Chad Handley
    Chad Handley said...
    Good grief, I say that I don't think that racism is natural to conservatism or to any political view, and I get bombarded with claims about the racism of the left.

    You guys just have pent up anger against liberals, and you unleash it indiscriminately against any liberal who wanders through, regardless of what they actually say.

    Racism is not an outgrowth of liberalism or conservatism, it's an outgrowth of the colonialism both sides enthusiastically supported.

    I am not interested in being bombarded with every anti-liberal blunt object you're all so frothing at the mouth to lob. I'm ignoring for the rest of this conversation anyone who says anything about race to me from this post forward.


    I can't be lumped in with everyone else. My point was clear enough that there are in fact elements built in to some Left leaning ideas that make them prone to racism of some kind (not an add-on). I think that is a fair point.

    I'm not on the right or left so that shouldn't be read into what I have said.

    Anyway. We shall set that to the side and get back to the OP.

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  73. Jakub wrote: "...if in such a case we say "this partner is not suitable for you and you should neither marry him/her, nor have sex with him/her", we also implicitely say "it is good that your possible future children, who could be conceived only from you two, never become actual", so it says that for some (future possible) people it is not good to exist." - Right. So what's the catch? Are you claiming that there are particular fictional people (like "possible future children") who have real rights (to exist)? That's not even remotely plausible, surely.

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  74. @Jakub Moravčík:

    "[W]e also [implicitly] say 'it is good that your possible future children, who could be conceived only from you two, never become actual', so it says that for some (future possible) people it is not good to exist."

    We may be implicitly saying the former, but the latter doesn't follow. To say that it's good that certain people not exist isn't to say that their own good is found in not existing.

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  75. …or that their existence wouldn't be good for them.

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  76. DavidM:

    No. But the status of possible people is much bigger problem than you maybe think. Me and you, we once were also "fictional" people, and a lot of fictional people (althouhg only tiny part of set of all possible people) is becoming actual.

    Another problem. Imagine you are standing in the situation my example displays - the rape. You surely would want the man to stop raping and so you would also want the possible person(s) that would emerge from this rape not to exist. But if the rape would have "succesfully finished" and the woman conceived, at least all pro-lifers - and I think you too - would defend the newly created embryo and say that it is good to exist for him (and for his raped mother).
    I do not think this problem can be solved simply by saying that possible people have no ontological status and that they are fully fictional (for example: was some biblical person, whose birth (conception) was foretold by some prophet for example, purely fictional during the act of foreteling? )

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  77. dover beach,

    People do a lot of things without the consent of any animals under their ownership, even to the point of euthanaising or butchering their pet or livestock; why is consent, irrelevant in every other situation involving pets and livestock, paramount here? Because liberals, when challenged with the rightness or wrongness of sex in this or that circumstance, have no other leg to stand on other than consent. Consent is the slip that covers the poverty of their sexual morality.

    Nailed it.

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  78. Jakub:
    If I was once purely fictional, then I had no right to exist at that time. Regarding prophesy, that's a merely epistemic issue, and irrelevant. Even in the absence of prophetic foretelling of a particular birth, every actual particular birth is foreknown by God as such, and as such is not purely fictional. (Accordingly, no real person, past, present, or future, is purely fictional.) Meanwhile, purely fictional births/people are still just that: purely fictional.

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  79. Jakub:
    "you would also want the possible person(s) that would emerge from this rape not to exist" - rather, I would not want this rape to happen (I would want it to be stopped asap), therefore I would not want any person to emerge from this rape.

    "But if the rape would have "succesfully finished" and the woman conceived, at least all pro-lifers - and I think you too - would defend the newly created embryo and say that it is good to exist for him (and for his raped mother)." - Right. So how is this supposed to be a problem?

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  80. @Jakub Moravčík

    While I find your objections interesting I can't support the logic.

    As a side note how do you think things should have been phrased?

    Note: Being 'Pro-Life' includes more than being against In utero human persons.

    @Matt Sheean

    Thank you.

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  81. ^
    Note: Being 'Pro-Life' includes more than being against the killing of In utero human persons.

    sorry about that.

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  82. I am pretty sure that Ed Feser has dismantled Rawls' stinking if elaborate makeshift of "A Theory of Justice", before.

    It would probably be worthwhile to link to his comments here. I'll look later.

    One of the things that really bugs me about Feser, is how often he has completely, comprehensively and systematically explicated issues which many of us [I think] imagined we had some mildly original, or at least clever insight into.

    Sort of like reading Hobbes, cursing him for peddling fictions, wondering why no one else is doing the same (they now claim he wasn't even pretending to describe real history) ...

    ... and then coming across something Henry Sumner Maine wrote well over a hundred years before.

    "...the theory of Hobbes on the same subject was purposely devised to repudiate the reality of a law of nature as conceived by the Romans and their disciples. Yet
    these two theories, which long divided the reflecting politicians of England into hostile camps, resemble each other strictly in their fundamental assumption of a non-historic, unverifiable, condition of the race."

    Only with Feser it's even worse ...

    You thread and clamber your way through the woods, to what looks like some likely outlook or opening, and find him already camped there, lounging with friends alongside his Winnebago.

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  83. I really don't get the rape illustration, Jakub.

    If it were a fitting illustration - if it does evince something problematic about stopping a rape, then natural family planning would similarly be problematic. This is absurd, though.



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  84. Also, it seems that your line of thinking is at least implicitly beholden to some consequentialist assumptions, e.g. that if a consequence of stopping a rape is that a new life is not created, then stopping the rape was in some sense bad.

    At any rate, I think all that about future people rests on a bit of a misinterpretation of the OP. I don't think that Feser was saying that we have an obligation to people who don't yet exist, but that intercourse brings new people into the world who are dependent on us for care, instruction, and so on.

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  85. David M:
    Even in the absence of prophetic foretelling of a particular birth, every actual particular birth is foreknown by God as such, and as such is not purely fictional.

    This entails that only people who in fact existed, exist and will exist in fact could exist (were oontologically possible). No others. Determinism in the horizont.

    rather, I would not want this rape to happen

    Me too, but too late.

    So how is this supposed to be a problem?

    There is still an (essential) identity of that rape-conceived person that stretches before and after the conception. Before conception you want him not to exist, after you want him to exist. I would see as correct if someone in some common conditions simply said "if conditions were such and such, I would want this fictional person to become actual", but to behave in the same conditions firstly in the way that I do not want this person to exist and a minute after that I want seems odd to me (although, from the catholic moral point of view there is no other solution that to let the conceived embryo live)

    (disregarding the fact that sole allowing of person being conceived through violent rape frustrates me as hell)

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  86. Matt:
    if it does evince something problematic about stopping a rape, then natural family planning would similarly be problematic. This is absurd, though.

    Well, given that natural family planning is used as an contraception, then traditionalists see it as problematic (although, true, not primarily with regard to future possible people).

    I don't think that Feser was saying that we have an obligation to people who don't yet exist, but that intercourse brings new people into the world who are dependent on us for care, instruction, and so on.

    Mr. Feser is not much clear here. I find his sentences dealing this topic little as containing a "gap" (thanks to the wording used) between an sexual intercourse and newly born people. But sex is concerned with other people only as far as the people are actual, and during having sex future newly born people are not actual. So I think the issue here is if this topic can principally avoid everything consequentialist. I am really not sure about that.

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  87. Irish Thomist:
    As a side note how do you think things should have been phrased?

    I am not sure I understand the question. Could you be more specific, please?

    Being 'Pro-Life' includes more than being against the killing of In utero human persons.

    Yes.

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  88. Jakub, really?

    "This entails that only people who in fact existed, exist and will exist in fact could exist (were oontologically possible). No others. Determinism in the horizont."

    Really is determinate. People who exist exist (past/present/future), people who don't don't (p/p/f). That shouldn't bother you. That's not determinism.

    The rape already happened, yes, but in your scenario you had the option to stop it from continuing. Remember? So yes, I'd want to stop it asap.

    "to behave in the same conditions firstly in the way that I do not want this person to exist and a minute after that I want seems odd to me" - That's no more odd than the fact that one minute no person does exist and a minute after one does.

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  89. Jakub,

    there's also double effect, though I don't even think we need to bring it in here. The intent in stopping the rape is to stop the rape - it would be surpassing odd to stop a rape, thinking, "oh geez, I must prevent some future person from being conceived here!" Nevermind how you'd know the rapist was 5 seconds from climax. There's something darkly comic (or just disturbing) about this example, but not really any insight.

    Also, Feser could avoid those possible people simply by restricting his concern to the nature of sexual intercourse. It just is the act by which possible people become actual. That's one of the things that make it morally significant. If we had a good, healthy couple that produced a wildly rebellious and nasty child who ended up in and out of prison their whole life it'd be pretty strange to turn to the couple and say, "well, you guys shouldn't have done the deed! You're to blame for all this!"

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  90. Sorry, that should have read: "REALITY is determinate."

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  91. David:

    People who exist exist (past/present/future), people who don't don't (p/p/f). That shouldn't bother you.

    Well, it does. One reason is that I became actual and other didn´t and won´t for eternity, but I may want them to be actual, even maybe instead of me. Second reason is that it seems that it depends to big extent on me which people will became actual and which won´t (for example by raping some girls or giving my sperm to sperm bank, although I absolutely do not have intention to anything like that in my life). But I really do not want to have any responsibility or capacity to decide which people will exist and which not, which I nevertheless have at least if origin essentialism is valid (I hope it isn´t). So although I know I can´t change anything on how there things are, it does bother me.

    That's not determinism.

    If it´s foreknown by God, then it seems it is, but that´s another topic and I do not want to start that debate here.

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  92. Matt:

    If we had a good, healthy couple that produced a wildly rebellious and nasty child who ended up in and out of prison their whole life it'd be pretty strange to turn to the couple and say, "well, you guys shouldn't have done the deed! You're to blame for all this!"

    If you know about antinatalism, then for antinatalists (for example David Benatar) such possibility is reason for not to procreate. I personally see as more emergent so called christian antinatalism (check this article or this book), which is based on kinda high probability of ending up in hell as a reason not to procreate. Although I am not antinatalist, it is a disturbing position, at least for me.

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  93. @ John West,

    "Actually, I think Dodgy Dave is much worse than Mr. Harper, who still at least defends some conservative-seeming positions. "

    No. Harper is just a neoliberal - a "neo-con" as opposed to a "theo-con" in his own words. For him, the only reason he thought neo-cons and theo-cons should be aligned was that it just so happened that theo-cons, being morally objective, were the only useful allies in fighting the West's enemies or, more accurately, the enemies (often so totally by accident and no fault of their own - those poor people who just so happened to be living on economic or strategically important ground)- the enemies, that is, of the rich, influential and powerful in the West.

    Harper's plan to subordinate humanitarian concerns and remove the usual threat or recourse to trade sanctions in foreign policy and place oil exports as the number one priority - in effect, to turn Canadian embassies into sales offices for the Tar Sands industry was proof that Harper is a servant and creature of Mammon and nothing more. Even his once lauded "democratic values" (taken from U.S State Department rhetoric and policy) went out the window and took a seat beside pimping oil. Ironically, U.S Senator McCain derided Russia as a giant gas station while his ideological clone was actively turning Canada into just that: a business.

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  94. @Jakub Moravčík:

    "I think the issue here is if this topic can principally avoid everything consequentialist. I am really not sure about that."

    I think the view you're describing derives its only intuitive plausibility from consequentialism. Reject consequentialism, and there's no problem. It's not your ethical duty to "maximize" anything, and in particular you are not responsible for bringing about the goods of nonexistent-but-possible persons.

    "If it´s foreknown by God, then it seems it is [determinism], but that´s another topic and I do not want to start that debate here."

    We needn't have a debate about it, but (fore)knowledge is certainly not the same thing as determinism, especially in the case of God. Surely God (fore)knows contingent events as well as He knows necessary ones.

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  95. @Jakub
    Before conception you want him not to exist, after you want him to exist.

    Before it was a non-issue, after it was an issue. Really the act of existing is what is central here. A non-person is just that i.e. a non existing person. There has not yet been an act of existing united to an essence so to speak. Sure there are other moral considerations but you will find that they are tied in with teleology, privation, misdirected acts and so forth. Not quite the direction you were going with it.

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  96. @Jakub

    I was asking about how you would reword the comment in the OP that you referenced.

    But the new people who we bring about through sex are, of course, precisely our children. Hence sex is very morally significant indeed.


    How would you word it differently? What precisely is wrong - is it semantics or is it logic? I can't see it being logic because you are reading an additional argument into the sentence which was neither implied nor stated. So I am assuming you want him to tighten up what he said; it's really a linguistic issue?

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  97. Timocrates,

    Now you know how little I think of Mr. Slippery!

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  98. An apology of sorts.

    Just a moment ago while looking through bookmarks and searching for cast aluminum retro charcoal grills or .308 ammunition links or something, I came across an unsorted bookmark link to one of these pages by E.F. which I stored as, "He Refutes you thus" ... July of 2013.

    Featuring by a process of devolution, the the same basic issues, ie., Chad's "Divine Command" business; unfolding as same pattern of argument (in circles); containing pretty much the same hashed over points (phrased somewhat differently).

    I regret that I have been complicit in enabling this nonsense.

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  99. Scott:

    "I don't, of course, mean that sex can't still be unitive for couples who are (say) infertile or past their child-bearing years; I just mean that if humans didn't reproduce sexually in general and in principle, sex wouldn't have the tendency it does have to unite couples.

    I really do not see why.

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  100. Thank you Mr. Feser for a well-written and thoughtful article. One suggestion on specifics: Please use the term Roman Catholic rather than Catholic. There is a rather important difference between definitions. As a wordsmith, I believe that you can differentiate between the two.

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  101. @Jakub Moravčík:

    "I really do not see why."

    You don't see why sex wouldn't have much tendency to unite couples in a species that didn't have it?

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  102. "One suggestion on specifics: Please use the term Roman Catholic rather than Catholic. There is a rather important difference between definitions. As a wordsmith, I believe that you can differentiate between the two."

    As a wordsmith, what do you believe is the "important difference" according to the Catholic Church?

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  103. Catholic is the proper term. Roman Catholic only became currency in the Anglosphere following the reformation - it was used pejoratively in the sense that it was supposed to sound somewhat oxymoronic (i.e., to designate one specific kind of Catholic - doubly useful for a big tent theory of the Church). It later did seemed to be happily used by the English Catholics hierarchy as sometimes happens with pejorative terms but was used with the understanding that the Roman Church and the Roman Pontiff were indispensable criteria for Catholicity. Notwithstanding, Catholic Christian and the Catholic Church remain the more proper terms.

    I think some Traditionalists and Sedevacantists still prefer Roman Catholic (it was used and included at Vatican I also largely by insistence of the English hierarchy) as if to differentiate "true" or "orthodox" Catholicism from the alleged excesses or even contaminations supposedly caused by Vatican II.

    Personally, from my understand of ecclesiology and Church History, the only really proper term today for Catholics to signify orthodoxy and communion would be "Vatican II Catholic" - if such labels must be indulged in - just as it made all the difference if one was or wasn't a Chalcedonian Catholic or a Christian who accepted the Council of Chalcedon and was in communion with the bishops of the universal Church.

    But that is probably a digression. It takes time as usual for the Church to come to self-understanding and state in a forceful theological and rational way the defense of her living Faith; consequently, extreme Trads and Sedes had seemed to have had the upper hand in debates about doctrine. Those days are at an end though and right now the policy seems to be trying to keep people together and united and not opening up an internal Church doctrinal war, and so long as extreme or radical Traditionalism remains marginal that policy will probably continue.

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  104. Isn't 'Roman Catholic' just a synonym for 'Latin rite Catholic'?

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  105. @ David M,

    Yes most properly but that is not the sense one often finds it used in. The erroneous use equates Catholicism with Roman Catholic as such; that if one is Catholic one must be or is a Roman (i.e. Latin rite or Latinized) Catholic. It also seems to equate a highly or even almost exclusively Westernized theological tradition with Catholicism, making other equally valid, orthodox or legitimate systems or traditions appear superficial or superfluous. But Latin rite Catholic would be much more happily accepted. The difficulty is many seem to use Roman Catholic as if it were the flagship of an imperial Catholic navy, which damages ecclesial harmony. This not surprisingly irritates Catholics in the Eastern rites as it would make them something like second-rank Catholics; and no doubt would do serious hurt to their own attempts to reconcile with Eastern Orthodox communions - as if they were like Samaritans or something, such that even if reconciled with what is considered standard orthodox doctrine in the Church they would still have something like inferior blood (e.g., even if they accepted the primacy of the Roman Church or the doctrine of papal infallibility or whatever). This might be a pride of spiritual heritage as opposed to a pride of blood. But any valid and legitimate rite is equally so and Catholic theology is always open to new systems of formulation, perhaps catered to specific peoples or cultures to make it more palpable or readily understandable to them. Christians individually do this all the time when they try to produce arguments palpable and forceful to any contemporary context they find themselves in. Appeals to, e.g., St Thomas Aquinas (who isn't even reckoned as an intellectual authority - it's not like appealing to Einstein or Adam Smith or something) would be almost unintelligible to most people outside of advanced philosophical circles.

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  106. Catholic is to be preferred over Roman Catholic simply because it is used as a pejorative title by Protestant's. Not that I don't get why someone might prefer Roman Catholic but still keep this simple detail in mind.

    Anyway is this not off topic?

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  107. @ Timocrates

    I don't think "Roman Catholic" can be said to be equivalent to "Latin Rite Catholic" (to "Catholic", on the other hand).
    This would make little sense: the Roman Latin Rite is not the only Latin Rite.
    If that's the case now in English speaking countries, I'm sorry to hear that, for if "Roman" is there to signify loyalty to the Holy See, as in the original English parlance, then undoubtebly Eastern Catholics are Roman Catholics, as I'm sure you understand.
    The use of "Roman" (even without 'Catholic') is quite old, I seem to remember. Aquinas, for example, does seem to use "Holy Roman Church" as synonymous to "Catholic Church".

    Given that there are still Anglo-Catholics around, and it would seem that various adherents of Orthodox communions sometimes use 'the full title' (not to mention various other 'Protestant' groups), I would say that 'Roman' should be kept, and if Catholics of any rite are scandalised by being called Roman*, I suspect this scandal might as well be "pharisaic".


    * I realise that there are other things (chiefly in history) that can be described as truly scandalising.

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  108. Irish thomist:
    How would you word it differently?

    Well, I think Matt explained it well (
    It just is the act by which possible people become actual. That's one of the things that make it morally significant.), so now I wouldn't have word it differently.

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  109. Georgy Mancz,

    Gallicans also generally refer to themselves as "French Catholics". I have even heard some say, "No, I'm not Roman Catholic -- French Catholic".

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  110. @Georgy Mancz:

    "The use of 'Roman' (even without 'Catholic') is quite old, I seem to remember. Aquinas, for example, does seem to use 'Holy Roman Church' as synonymous to 'Catholic Church'."

    For whatever it's worth, I thought "Holy Roman Church" referred specifically to the Holy See (the Diocese of Rome).

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  111. @ Scott

    Oh, it does refer to the Holy See.
    It's just that in the past the reference could be less specific, it would seem, referencing the Church by her principal church.

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  112. @Georgy Mancz:

    Okay, that makes sense. Thanks.

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  113. @ Jakub

    I'm a few days late to the game here but I thought I'd comment.

    [That sex is morally significant by virtue of the fact that by sex we bring new people into the world] implies that future possible people in general are the object of our morality.

    No, it doesn't. If Feser were saying that the effect of sex on children is what makes it morally significant, then you'd be right. But he is saying that it is morally significant because it's how we have children. Its role in human life and the duties that attend having a family is what makes it morally significant; it's not morally significant because it is good for Johnny or Susie, i.e. for particular children who might arise from the union.

    I have in mind for example Parfit´s example of glass fragment intentionally left somewhere in wood which wounds some future child stepping on it after years: the one who left the fragment in the wood years ago is in Parfit´s eyes morally responsible for child´s injury.

    Well, the person who leaves the fragment there has done something wrong even if it is not the case that some child later steps on it. This is because he has done something harmless or careless.

    It's also bad that the child has stepped on it, and the person is responsible for that. But this strikes me more as a problem of moral luck than non-existent future persons, for the same considerations apply if the person who steps on it (say) 10 years from now currently exists. Moral luck is the interesting feature of this situation, since we want to blame the person more for leaving the glass there when some evil results from it.

    But I'd say the old natural lawyer, at least, can regard careless actions of that sort as harms against the common good. If a thick enough account of the common good is supplied (so that it is not reduced to the good of individuals), then we can account for the wrongness of acts that are apparently against possible people.

    In connection with this I always come to my hypotetical example: five origin essentialists by accident encounter a strong, muscled man, raping girl in her fertile period and he is 5 second before ejaculation. Origin essentialists believe that the currently potential new person who would be conceived from this rape (and who will be in future moved by others to thank God for creating him, regardless the way he came into being - rape in this case) would otherwise never come into existence. Now they may stay before the dillema: to tear or not to tear the rapist off?

    They should tear the rapist off. We have no obligation to actualize all possible goods, and there is no possible person who is offended by tearing the rapist off.

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  114. http://www.christiantoday.com/article/stephen.fry.says.god.is.capricious.mean.minded.stupid.but.lets.not.get.angry/47174.htm

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  115. Anon: http://www.christiantoday.com/article/stephen.fry.says.god.is.capricious.mean.minded.stupid.but.lets.not.get.angry/47174.htm

    Having to deal with raw URLs is empirical proof of Original Sin. At least they separated the words. So I get: "Stephen Fry," says God, "is capricious, mean-minded, stupid; but let's not get angry." Well, far be it from me to disagree with God, but if Christianity Today scored such an interviewing coup, couldn't they have asked God something less obvious?

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  116. @Mr. Green:

    "[I]f Christianity Today scored such an interviewing coup, couldn't they have asked God something less obvious?"

    I once saw a web page selling the Douay-Rheims Bible that had a link to Other Books by this Author. I wish they'd asked about those.

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  117. @ Mr. Green & Anon

    Well he was quite angry recently in an interview on RTE on the issue. So what is he really saying?


    @Scott
    lol!

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  118. As an Englishman, I really don't much like Stephen Fry. The ever impartial BBC love him though.

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  119. @Jeremy,

    Make not complaint or they'll serve us up Terry Pratchett...

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  120. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have been thinking more and more that the so called problem of evil is no where near the sort of objection that the likes of Fry seem to think it is.

    It seems to me that the atheist making it has to deal with the theist's notion of the good, which he will generally identify with God, to really give the argument bite.

    But he cannot really do this by disagreeing with the theist's belief in objective good, because (1) his endeavour is to show that the theist's beliefs in an all-powerful and all-good God are contradictory and (2), in a related fashion, if he abandons an objective good his argument looses its key rhetorical power if he has to judge God simply by subjective standards and preferences.

    Indeed, all the rhetorical power of the argument seems to deflate and he has to resort to showing, in a rather dry fashion, that the existence of evil and God's omnipotence are strictly contradictory (which would be a hard task), or perhaps some version of the Euthyphro dilemma, whilst strenuously avoiding the conclusion that he is appealing from God as the Supreme Good to a higher Good.

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  121. And, it should be said, once one does accept there is an objective Good it becomes very hard to separate this from God, especially if one has an inkling of the classical theist positions of evil being a privation of the Good.

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  122. Greg:

    If a thick enough account of the common good is supplied (so that it is not reduced to the good of individuals), then we can account for the wrongness of acts that are apparently against possible people.


    But is this worngness/evil intrinsic or extrinsic? Take an example of sittink drunk in the car and driving. Is this act intrinsincally bad? It doesn´t seem to me. If is, then in what rests the "intrinsicness" of its badness?

    We have no obligation to actualize all possible goods
    And do we have obligation to actualize possible people at all? If you think so, how would you demonstrate it? If no, do married couples have an obligation to have sex? It doesn´t seem so ...

    there is no possible person who is offended by tearing the rapist off
    You want to say that for example me, before I was conceived, wasn´t possible? That doesn´t seem much plausible to me.

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  123. @ Jakub Moravčík

    I would say that violating a just piece of positive legislation (one that is in no demonstrable way positively immoral) amounts to being a bad social animal, as it were, and this is intrinsic.

    Humans are aimed at procreation (procreation is a good), so pursuing it is good. It is a good of actual as opposed to possible or potential people.
    That doesn't make rape good - rape is immoral for reasons other than the telos of the sexual act, as I'm sure you understand.

    I think what Greg was saying is that the possible person does not exist, and therefore duties towards that person cannot exist.

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  124. @Jakub Moravčík:

    "If no, do married couples have an obligation to have sex?"

    Whatever that obligation might be, surely it's to existing persons—yourselves, each other, your family, your community, and so forth. As far as I can see, even if you have an obligation to reproduce, you have no obligation to produce any one child rather than another; for every child you produce, there are many millions of others that you could have produced instead, and it seems silly to say that you're somehow wronging (or even merely harming, whether wrongfully or not) each and every one of them by bringing a different child into existence.

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  125. I got sidetracked a bit by life, but I'm back to offer a few comments here if anybody still cares.

    I want to first note, that my point in objecting to Crude's comment to the effect that liberals would have trouble justifying their moral disapproval of bestiality was absurd, given that political liberalism doesn't necessitate any moral theory, or rule any moral theory out. As I said before, a liberal could support the LEGALITY of gay marriage, while still holding that gay marriage was morally wrong on the basis of full-blown Divine Command Theory. That position is not intellectually or morally inconsistent. Those of us who aren't quite yet Thomists believe it's not the government's role to be our moral teacher. We rather believe that the government's role, in terms of ideological/metaphysical/moral debates, is to make sure the parties involved don't kill each other as they try to convince each other.

    I still think that Greg's arguments against consent don't work, and that liberals of a broadly Rawlsian stripe could defend themselves from his charges, even if they were atheists. So, I'm still going to waste some bandwith arguing about it, even though my main point - that liberalism as a POLITICAL THEORY is completely compatible with almost any MORAL THEORY - obviously doesn't depend on the consent argument.

    "What are the criteria for "more important issues"?"

    No idea, but I presume that whatever they turn out to be, prevention of mass starvation of humans would meet them.

    "For example, suppose zoophiles commit suicide at a high rate."

    It would have to be determined that the zoophiles committed suicide at a high rate for lack of animals to bang, rather than out of shame, or out of ridicule, or self-loathing. (I wouldn't find it surprising if the suicide rate were higher among zoophiles either, but I would guess it's because they believe they're broken or warped human beings, rather than purely for the lack of sexual access to animals.) If the suicide rate was high whether the zoophile was allowed sexual access to animals or not, then it wouldn't really solve the problem to legalize bestiality.

    And I'll raise your supposition with one of my own: suppose that, in countries where bestiality is legal, the suicide rate of animal activists is higher. Suppose that, for whatever law you set around this or any other issue, the suicide rate between the passionate, competing factions will always fluctuate. A Rawlsian would probably then rightly conclude that it would be impossible to create a system where some wouldn't commit suicide out of protest to that system. It would be impossible to build a functioning government that was optimized for the reduction of suicide risk without sacrificing many other more important civic goals.

    So, one of the criteria for "more important issues" would be that it must be possible to build a functioning government while considering the issue. It's possible, and actually probably necessary, to consider the possibility of mass starvation when setting up the rules. It's not possible to build a functioning government by trying to optimize and equalize suicide risk across every inclination, since those risks could reasonably be thought to offset.

    (More...)

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  126. "Both are metaphysical theses. I expect the Rawlsian would respond as he does in the case of abortion and gay marriage, which also involve controverted metaphysical theses: favoring the interest of the least well off. In this case the sexual minority is the least well off.

    This has not really been discussed a lot, but in Rawlsian liberalism, the subjects of rights are sufficiently self-aware and intelligent deliberators; that is, not animals."

    There are animal rights Rawlsians who do include animals in the sphere of justice. They add the stipulation that, under the veil of ignorance from which we should work out our system of laws, in addition to being unaware of one's gender, race, or orientation, one would also not be aware of one's eventual species.

    By that criteria, obviously, the animal would be the least well off, and therefore its interests would be favored.

    (It might be thought that bringing animals to the table might put the subject of meat-eating back on the table. However, I doubt that including your species as unknown under the veil of ignorance would induce anyone to take predation off the table, as their species could end up being a tiger.)

    Now, just as you claim that since some specific liberals have a hard time defending an objection bestiality, that therefore liberals have a hard time defending an objection bestiality, I now claim that since some specific Rawlsians have an easy time defending their objection to bestiality, that therefore Rawlsians have an easy time defending bestiality.

    "As I've pointed out, this understanding of consent is in fact pretty exotic. Animals don't "understand" generally. So they don't understand their relationships with other animals either."

    It's not the least bit exotic if you take into account I've said several times that an understanding level sufficient for consent is only binding on humans, and not animals. Yes, agreed: animals can't consent with each other, but that hardly creates any problem because they don't need to. They don't have That's the general understanding most people have. Again - if a German Shepard mounts a Beagle in the street without so much as a by your leave, nobody wants the German Shepard charged with rape. If a man were to mount a woman with as little warning, he'd be treated differently. Nothing could be less exotic than the claim that animals don't have moral responsibilities in this area while humans do.

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  127. "Note, I haven't bothered raising the obvious objection that there would not be mass starvation and malnutrition if meat consumption were substantially reduced, or even eliminated in developed countries."

    But on Rawlsian "veil of ignorance" thinking, you would be required to reason as if you did not know whether you'd be in a developed country or not.

    "If there were no lack of meat alternatives, but (say) zoophiles committed suicide at high rates, it would follow that the consent-argument would favor bestiality over meat consumption! "

    Well, no, for reasons I offered above. I don't think it's possible to build a government system that takes into account the suicide risk attendant to every law.

    "And yet you claim that there is nothing in liberalism per se that makes it more hospitable to bestiality than other worldviews!"

    Yes, obviously, because a conservative could just as well object to bestiality on the basis of consent as a liberal. And both the liberal and the conservative could have many other reasons, besides consent, to object to bestiality.

    If an American or British or Australian conservative were asked to present reasons to a court as to why bestiality should remain illegal, he'd likely have to make recourse to consent arguments. Natural law arguments and arguments on the basis of Divine Command theory would likely be judged inconsequential or irrelevant by the court.

    (And at any rate, most of those conservatives would not even believe in natural law in the first place. You write as if all conservatives were natural law Thomists, when they comprise a vanishingly small portion of conservatives in the world.)

    "I also should say that I probably won't get another chance to respond this weekend."

    Yes, I also enjoyed the superbowl.

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  128. "One of the main problems in this discussion is Chad appears to oppose discerning patterns of assumptions and beliefs amongst liberals. He is correct that liberals often have differing moral beliefs and assumptions - indeed, liberalism is often contradictory and inconsistent (more so than usual amongst human systems of thought) - but contemporary liberalism can be identified with certain common of dominant moral and philosophical beliefs. If this wasn't the case then discussions like this would be pointless, which is almost the case as Chad seems to imply at times that there is basically nothing that separates liberals and conservatives beyond their chosen appellations, like blues and greens of the Byzantine mob."

    That's not what I'm saying. I'm not just saying that some liberals believe in homosexual marriage and some don't, or that some believe in abortion and some don't.

    I'm saying that there isn't any moral theory that having liberal (or conservative) political commitments rules out. I don't even think having liberal (or conservative) political commitments means that one can only adopt some moral theories on pain of inconsistency.

    For example, I don't think any inconsistency is required to make Divine Command Theory fit with a belief that gay marriage should be legal. If you believe that it is not the role of government, in a democracy, to be the moral instructor of the populace, the two views are perfectly consistent.

    Basically, my whole participation here is an admonition for more precision. If you say, "Atheist 'humans-only' Rawlsian-style liberals who support gay marriage on the basis of non-intervention and oppose legalizing bestiality on the basis of consent might have a hard time defending their opposition to the legality of bestiality without dropping the 'humans-only' understanding of Rawlsian justice theory," I'd probably somewhat broadly agree.

    But when you just say "liberals can't defend their objection to the legality of bestiality," that statement is too broad to possibly be meaningfully true. It encompasses too many political and moral theories to possibly be relevant to all of them.

    There are straightforwardly political statements that could be meaningfully broadly applied to most liberals. I'd agree that most liberals prefer a larger government than most conservatives. I'd agree that most liberals are more willing to accept laws that privilege minority groups. There are meaningful generalizations about liberals that I think are correct. But "they can't defend their opposition to legalizing bestiality" isn't one of them.

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  129. "Less just? On the basis of what particular moral entitlement, which is grounded how, exactly?"

    On the basis of my belief that it is not the role of the government in a democracy to be the moral teacher of the populace.

    And that belief is grounded in the possibility that a party whose moral beliefs are radically different from mine could assume power in a democracy, possibly permanently.

    "Reminds me of Sam Harris' painfully embarrassing pronouncement that all you had to do in order to demonstrate that objective values existed in a world without inherent value, was to acknowledge that it really would be objectively bad for someone to suffer excruciating pain for ... etc, etc."

    Sure, but as I understand him, or at least, insomuch as I agree with him, Rawls isn't using his theory of justice as a theory of moral ontology. He's only trying to decide how one could best fairly decide a system of governance in a multicultural democracy. That's where I find his thinking useful.

    You Natural Law Thomists are pretty good at coming up with how laws would be decided in a country either full of Natural Law Thomist or one where Natural Law Thomists set all the rules. But that's not much help to people who live in the real world and who have to assume the task of figuring out how people of disparate beliefs can best live in harmony together.

    "Yeah, Rawls: just like magic. All we have to do is to agree that fair is fair and then promise not to think about it anymore after that."

    Well, at least there are people of all beliefs, all genders, all orientations, and (sometimes) all species at the table arguing over what fairness means.

    Which seems inherently more fair than the Thomistic solution of "Thomists decide what's fair for everyone, because Thomists know best."

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  130. @Chad

    You brought up the point that what is immoral might nor in fact always be made worthy of being illegal (when you mentioned Divine Command Theory etc.). I agree. However you didn't list any criteria (that I saw on a glance through your large posts). I think that one good criteria would be to do no harm, and I hold (from life experience) that 1)Genuine and authentic 'Marriage' is directed towards rearing and bringing into being children 2)The absence of one or both of ones biological parents is a deprivation. In the case of missing a male or female parent(or one how holds such a role) one does not have the benefits of the complementarity of their natures in ones psychological development (I know of those who have lived that - or rather suffered life long because of that) and 3) Homosexuals raised by homosexuals were among the voices in strong opposition to the oxymoronic redefinition of marriage 4)Not all slippery slope arguments are fallacious especially if we are arguing that the prior deprivation of a good is to be avoided never mind the latter. It is most certain that the definition will be widened even further, for the same reasons, in the same way, by the same people (or group o ideological advocates) even to a point where what some claim is unacceptable now, shall bring further damage to a broken society; most especially children.

    It is worthy adding that (like the Church) I am not entirely against some kind of social contract for those who are attracted to the same sex such as some kind of Civil Partnership. These relationships are different in nature and what they serve or to put it more accurately what they are naturally directed towards. If love was the meaning of marriage then marriage wouldn't exist - since one can uniquely love another without a binding life long commitment to do so. No marriage is about security for offspring or it at least is directed towards the procreation of offspring and their rearing in a committed life long relationship (the imperfect marriage is meant for and directed towards the ideal).

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  131. I'm not at all convinced that one must remove knowledge in order to discern what is right for a group of people, race, species and so forth. In fact this seems not only completely wrong but a means to perpetrate many injustices.

    Besides it begs the question if one appeals to a veil of ignorance when the very thing being challenged and at question are the distinctions which are essential to the very debate!

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  132. "Chad Handley said...

    "Less just? On the basis of what particular moral entitlement, which is grounded how, exactly?"

    On the basis of my belief that it is not the role of the government in a democracy to be the moral teacher of the populace. [etc. etc]"


    Really? And you supposedly rely on Rawls for support in this?

    What qualifies as an objctively moral act on your "moral ontology": whether or not to engage in a Lenten fast?

    Because it sure sounds as though Rawls is addressing what most people would call moral acts and demands here, as I quoted him here. of Ed Feser's blog. in August 2012.



    " 'In justice as fairness men agree to share one another's fate. ... they undertake to avail themselves of the accidents of nature and social circumstance only when doing so is for the common benefit. ...

    [In considering objections] ... it is necessary to be clear about the notion of desert ...

    Perhaps some will think that the person with greater natural endowments deserves those assets and the superior character that made their endowment possible.

    ... This view is surely incorrect. It seems to be one of the fixed points of our considered judgments that no one deserves his place in the distribution of native endowments ...

    ... over time a society is to take steps at least to preserve the general level of natural abilities and to prevent the diffusion of serious defects. ...

    I mention this speculative matter and difficult matter to indicate once again the manner in which the difference principle is likely to transform problems of social justice. We might conjecture that in the long run, if there is an upper bound on ability, we would eventually reach a society with the greatest equal liberty the members of which enjoy the greatest equal talent. But I shall not pursue this thought further' "




    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-road-from-libertarianism.html?showComment=1345134302816#c6391962573863401169

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  133. How do Thomists pick up girls?

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  134. What's wrong with cultural monism?

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  135. I am not a Natural Law theorist but this fellow has shot himself in the foot all too often.

    But that's not much help to people who live in the real world

    Translates as: doing what we hypothetically acknowledge as right is too impractical so we may as well do something else and just call it 'right'.

    people of disparate beliefs can best live in harmony together.

    Living in harmony is to be considered a bad thing no? If you disagree then you need some hard ethical backbone in place.

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  136. "Really? And you supposedly rely on Rawls for support in this?"

    Not at all, but his reasoning leads to the same result.

    If, behind the veil of ignorance, you don't know what faith commitment you'll have when you're born, you wouldn't consent to the government teaching morals from any specific perspective. You'd prefer the government simply maintained the peace and left people to their own moral consciences.

    But, again, I'd believe the government should not take the role of moral teacher whether Rawls agreed or not, for the reason previously stated: I don't want some other group to assume power and use the government to teach me that I shouldn't be a Christian.

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  137. "I think that one good criteria would be to do no harm, and I hold (from life experience) that 1)Genuine and authentic 'Marriage' is directed towards rearing and bringing into being children 2)The absence of one or both of ones biological parents is a deprivation. In the case of missing a male or female parent(or one how holds such a role) one does not have the benefits of the complementarity of their natures in ones psychological development (I know of those who have lived that - or rather suffered life long because of that)"

    I'm not going to go back over the issue of my support for gay marriage here again. Suffice to say that while I would agree that the absence of two gender role representatives is a suboptimal way to raise children, I don't believe that allowing suboptimal conditions constitutes a positive harm.

    I don't believe the lack of a mother and a father in the home is any more or less suboptimal than raising children under the poverty line, or in a bad neighborhood, or while disabled, etc. How do we single out one suboptimal condition, the lack of a female or male role model in the home, and say that this people under this particular suboptimal condition cannot marry, but those under the other suboptimal conditions can?

    And the fact that marriage wouldn't exist if not for children just doesn't matter to most people, and for the purposes of deciding this issue, I can't think of any reason why it should.

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  138. "What's wrong with cultural monism?"

    It doesn't exist anywhere. So, the problems would come up in your trying to achieve it.

    And even if you found yourself in a country where everyone agreed, you'd be foolish to design a governing system that counted on that agreement continuing forever.

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  139. "If, behind the veil of ignorance, you don't know what faith commitment you'll have when you're born, you wouldn't consent to the government teaching morals from any specific perspective."

    But what if one of these faith commitments just involved the government teaching morals from a specific perspective, namely yours? Don't we, behind the veil of ignorance, have to consider the possibility that we might end up in such a situation?

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  140. "And the fact that marriage wouldn't exist if not for children just doesn't matter to most people, and for the purposes of deciding this issue, I can't think of any reason why it should."

    Because you are redefining marriage, per chance?

    What remains however is that we can bestow on SSR the rights and duties appropriate to such a relationship without having to redefine marriage.

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  141. Chad is correct that there has always been a degree of cultural pluralism. Where he is wrong is thinking that this means any amount of cultural pluralism is compatible with a modicum of social harmony and cohesion. This seems very unlikely. There needs to be some broad agreement about values and beliefs and narratives.

    Rawls, like most liberals, is an atomist. He ignores the fact that men do not spring from the earth fully rational and self-sufficing, and that their social associations are not ephemeral, rational constructions in many cases. Rather, men are partially constituted (in their mundane existence) and significantly regulated by the web of social and cultural associations they find themselves born into and into which they connect themselves. The family is the obvious example, but it is far from the only one.

    To quote Robert Nisbet:

    Conservatives, from Burke on, have tended to see the population much in the manner medieval legists and philosophical realists (in contrast to nominalists) saw it: as composed of, not individuals directly, but the natural groups within which individuals invariably live: family, locality, church, region, social class, nation, and so on. Individuals exist, of course, but they cannot be seen or comprehended save in terms of social identities which are inseparable from groups and associations.

    And part of what binds together group or associations - and then networks of associations - is shared values and beliefs and narratives or mythology. Rawls seems to have come no further than Hobbes or Locke in his appreciation of man's cultural and social nature.

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  142. Chad,

    As I said, your definition of liberalism is far too broad. It amounts essentially to saying liberals favour more government - although even here you would no doubt admit the existence of areas where they want a lot less government and there are, of course, classical liberals to slot in somewhere.

    To a degree it is true that liberalism - like many ideologies - is chaotic and hard to define. However, to make any sense of it we have to try and give it a general definition or identify it with pattern of belief. Either that or we just abandon broad talk of liberalism altogether. You are causing confusion because you are defining liberalism too broadly, so that you can match it with any moral system.

    By the way, it should be mentioned that liberalism and deconstructionist ideologies are not the same. There is some overlap, which fools some on the right and even many liberals into conflating them to a degree, but they are distinct. A radical feminist isn't really a liberal for example. He is some kind of deconstructionist or cultural Marxist or whatever you want to call it. Safe zones, microagressions, and political corectness and the like are not liberal beliefs and policies, they are radical ones.

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  143. "But what if one of these faith commitments just involved the government teaching morals from a specific perspective, namely yours? Don't we, behind the veil of ignorance, have to consider the possibility that we might end up in such a situation?"

    But if it's a real roll of the dice, are you really going to risk being required to adopt the faith of whatever the ruling party happens to be? Or would you rather just have the government stay out of it? Seems like an easy decision.

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  144. "Chad is correct that there has always been a degree of cultural pluralism. Where he is wrong is thinking that this means any amount of cultural pluralism is compatible with a modicum of social harmony and cohesion. This seems very unlikely."

    Most of the Western world is doing just fine with that, thanks for noticing.

    "You are causing confusion because you are defining liberalism too broadly, so that you can match it with any moral system. "

    That liberalism is a broad church is exactly the point.

    You might not want to call a radical feminist a liberal but that's how he defines himself, those are the alliances he claims, that's how he votes.

    You can try to define him out of liberalism so that your ridiculous point stands, or you can just drop your ridiculous point.

    Liberalism is, broadly speaking, compatible with nearly any moral theory. If you disagree, find me a moral theory a liberal could not adhere to.

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  145. Chad writes,


    But, again, I'd believe the government should not take the role of moral teacher whether Rawls agreed or not, for the reason previously stated: I don't want some other group to assume power and use the government to teach me that I shouldn't be a Christian.

    This assumes that a government can be neutral; that it can avoid substantive moral commitments and have little effect on religious groups under its rule. This seems unlikely. All human endeavours in some sense invoke an implicit or explicit worldview, including the passing of laws. A secular government means a government not committed to Christianity. It means that the official legal and governing apparatus of society is alien to Christianity. Now, different groups and individuals react differently to such a situation. It is possible to thrive in it. But on balance it is more likely than not to have a negative effect. This is presumably why the secular state is connected to the rise of disbelief.

    Now, you might think that secularism is still the best we can do. However, even ignoring the issues of need for shared social convictions, it seems that if secularism is to be as neutral as it can be, the current bloated status of the state in the Western world is hardly helping it achieve this. Secularist neutrality should demand the state withdraw as much as is possible from anything but necessary social roles. Especially, roles like running schools would be suspect.

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  146. Chad writes,

    Most of the Western world is doing just fine with that, thanks for noticing.

    Well, this is part of what is in dispute between the liberal and conservative or traditional conservative. I must say, the London riots back in 2011 filled me with a joyous conviction in the social harmony of modern Britain.

    As for the definition of liberalism, this is getting tedious. Yes, if we ignore any attempt at precision or proper analysis, then liberalism is compatible with almost any moral belief system. Well done. What a worthwhile point to champion.

    And the point about radical feminist is not ridiculous. Many, if not most, deconstructionists do not consider themselves liberals or within the liberal tradition. There is a clear difference between the more radical tradition and the liberal tradition.

    For example, liberals have always tended to champion free speech. Even when they are willing to put some limitations on it, they do this reluctantly and cautiously. Deconstructionists tend to be in the Marxist tradition of thought that says, conversely, that free speech given equally to the capitalists and bourgeoisie and the workers is a joke, except they, under the guidance of those like Marcuse, extend this few other struggles, like that of men and women, whites and ethnic groups, heterosexual and homosexuals. A deconstructionist is far less likely to have qualms than the liberal in evening the playing field through state action, even quite radically. This represents a basic difference between the liberal and the deconstructionist.

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  147. @Jeremy Taylor:

    "This represents a basic difference between the liberal and the deconstructionist."

    Surely a much more basic difference is that deconstructionism is a theory of literature and language and liberalism is a theory of politics. Why can't a political liberal be a literary deconstructionist?

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  148. I am using the term deconstructionist in the sense of cultural Marxist. The literary ideas overlap of course, but that wasn't my meaning.

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  149. I'm not suggesting there isn't an overlap today between radicals and liberals. There is, and it is getting worse. But there are important differences which make the two ideologies uneasy roommates.

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  150. "But if it's a real roll of the dice, are you really going to risk being required to adopt the faith of whatever the ruling party happens to be? Or would you rather just have the government stay out of it? Seems like an easy decision."

    I don't think this one is that easy to wriggle out of. It IS a real roll of the dice, and you just might end up a member of a faith that is incompatible with the rather idiosyncratic Rawls-ish scheme you've cooked up. It is at least in principle possible that your scheme would be friendlier to some faiths than to others, but this undermines the whole notion of the possibility of the government "staying out of it."

    "If you disagree, find me a moral theory a liberal could not adhere to. "

    Isn't this, more or less, what the others are saying is the problem for liberalism re: bestiality?

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  151. @ Chad

    As I said before, a liberal could support the LEGALITY of gay marriage, while still holding that gay marriage was morally wrong on the basis of full-blown Divine Command Theory. That position is not intellectually or morally inconsistent.

    I don't think anyone cares to deny this, but the distinction is totally uninteresting. When people critique comprehensive liberals, they critique their moral positions. When people critique political liberals, they critique the implications for public reason that political liberals take their theory to have.

    We rather believe that the government's role, in terms of ideological/metaphysical/moral debates, is to make sure the parties involved don't kill each other as they try to convince each other.

    Provided, that is, that none of the parties are fetuses.

    (Of course, fetuses can't try to convince each other. But neither can animals.)

    It would have to be determined that the zoophiles committed suicide at a high rate for lack of animals to bang, rather than out of shame, or out of ridicule, or self-loathing.

    OK, but prima facie the case is similar to homosexuals, to whom liberals regularly appeal. (And moreover, the zoophile can claim that you ought to let him satisfy his sexual desires, because then his behavior will become more socially acceptable, and he will be less ashamed and less ridiculed. These are all prominent points made by advocates of same-sex marriage and other LGBT issues.)

    And I'll raise your supposition with one of my own: suppose that, in countries where bestiality is legal, the suicide rate of animal activists is higher.

    Perhaps. But this seems incredibly unlikely to me. And moreover it wouldn't rebut the modal version of my argument; that is, I suggested that the suicide rate of zoophiles might (in some fairly similar possible world) be the most frequent of the relevant factors. So to make this sort of argument about consequences, you would be accepting (at least on those terms - other considerations could be brought in, but that would be to concede the point) that it's a contingent fact that political liberalism excludes bestiality, and it permits bestiality in a relatively close possible world.

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  152. They add the stipulation that, under the veil of ignorance from which we should work out our system of laws, in addition to being unaware of one's gender, race, or orientation, one would also not be aware of one's eventual species.

    The problem is that ants would not be under the veil of freedom. They are not autonomous agents. There is a line somewhere. The Rawlsian has to argue that there are animals that are autonomous enough to deliberate under the veil of ignorance but not autonomous enough to consent. Perhaps that's true; it's not trivial or obvious.

    (It might be thought that bringing animals to the table might put the subject of meat-eating back on the table. However, I doubt that including your species as unknown under the veil of ignorance would induce anyone to take predation off the table, as their species could end up being a tiger.)

    I'm sure the animal-rights Rawlsians aren't stupid. But I haven't read them, and this is a bad argument on Rawlsian terms. It would be like arguing that I wouldn't take irresponsible lending practices off the table because I might work for Goldman Sachs.

    I imagine an animal-rights Rawlsian would be arguing for vegetarianism, so I doubt they would make this argument.

    Now, just as you claim that since some specific liberals have a hard time defending an objection bestiality, that therefore liberals have a hard time defending an objection bestiality, I now claim that since some specific Rawlsians have an easy time defending their objection to bestiality, that therefore Rawlsians have an easy time defending bestiality.

    You are misunderstanding an elementary logical point. I said:

    Since liberalism is a disjunction of various forms of liberalism (one of them being Rawls' political liberalism), it follows that whatever is consistent with Rawls' liberalism is consistent with liberalism.

    I didn't say that Rawlsians have a tough time defending against bestiality, so therefore all liberals do too. I provided the argument against Rawlsians specifically because that was the argument I was asked (by John West) to provide. And I have also said that I think comprehensive liberals would do better against the objection. A comprehensive doctrine will help people avoid commitment to allowing bestiality.

    Yes, agreed: animals can't consent with each other, but that hardly creates any problem because they don't need to. They don't have That's the general understanding most people have. Again - if a German Shepard mounts a Beagle in the street without so much as a by your leave, nobody wants the German Shepard charged with rape. If a man were to mount a woman with as little warning, he'd be treated differently. Nothing could be less exotic than the claim that animals don't have moral responsibilities in this area while humans do.

    But my point has never had anything to do with whether animals have moral responsibilities or should be charged with rape. The question is: Suppose A1, A2 are animals and H is a human. A1 cannot understand relationships with either A2 or H. Is it a bad thing (which we ought to halt) for A to have sex with x if A does not understand what a relationship with x entails? You have said that the answer to this question is yes; what values x take are not relevant (and whatever intuition was behind the principle would be lost if you were to deny this). But while that would rule out H as a partner for A1, it would also rule out A2. This doesn't have to do with morality but with what is good or bad for the animal. We don't charge the German Shepard with rape, but we prevent it from mounting the beagle.

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  153. But on Rawlsian "veil of ignorance" thinking, you would be required to reason as if you did not know whether you'd be in a developed country or not.

    This is irrelevant, because meat consumption could be far reduced in developed and undeveloped countries. I was just pointing out that it could possibly be eliminated in developed countries, if we were committed to it. Moreover, undeveloped countries generally have lower meat consumption anyway. And it is irrelevant for another reason: I might live in either a developed or undeveloped country, but if meat consumption can be eliminated only in developed countries, it would have to be eliminated there. On Rawlsian principles you couldn't argue that the undeveloped nations can't do away with meat consumption (a grave injustice) so developed nations (who can do away with it) don't have to either.

    There are odd anti-Rawlsian strains in your thought.

    Yes, obviously, because a conservative could just as well object to bestiality on the basis of consent as a liberal. And both the liberal and the conservative could have many other reasons, besides consent, to object to bestiality.

    Note: The relevant reasons here are those which permit one to claim (on the terms of one's own theory) that bestiality should not be legal or sanctioned by the state.

    But this is not true, anyway, for reasons I have already stated with no response. Conservatives can rule out bestiality by appealing to principles which are unavailable to liberals, for example final causality or one-flesh union. Liberals could attempt to modify such principles, but they then face a tension by trying to defend an impure theory that is like Parfit's example of self-interest theory.

    Perhaps they can do that. But then the claim that there is nothing in liberalism that makes it more apt to accept bestiality than conservatism is false, because it is engaged in defended an impure theory in order to maintain the distinction it would like to maintain. (Note, this is not open to those who accept political liberalism. The liberal in question would be defending a comprehensive doctrine of the good, in this case.)

    If an American or British or Australian conservative were asked to present reasons to a court as to why bestiality should remain illegal, he'd likely have to make recourse to consent arguments.

    This is probably true, but most American, British, and Australian conservatives are liberals. (You could probably say that the sort of conservatism you talk about, i.e. what would usually be called 'conservative' on Fox, CNN, and MSNBC, is itself an impure theory. For that matter, the sort of liberalism you talk about probably is too. They are both impure versions of libertarianism.)

    I'm not interested in defending American, British, and Australian conservatives. I am interested in discussing 'liberalism' as a current in modern political thought, with its attendant views of human freedom and the value of autonomy, among other things. Both American conservatives and American liberals fall under its purview. On the other hand, you seem most interested in exonerating liberals' good name.

    Yes, I also enjoyed the superbowl.

    I didn't watch it, but my understanding is that it was on Sunday night, and did not start on Friday morning.

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  154. Chad Handley: You Natural Law Thomists are pretty good at coming up with how laws would be decided in a country either full of Natural Law Thomist or one where Natural Law Thomists set all the rules. But that's not much help to people who live in the real world and who have to assume the task of figuring out how people of disparate beliefs can best live in harmony together.

    Unless the best way to live in harmony is by Natural Law. Which of course it is, given that the one thing any group of men can be known to have in common is their shared Nature. Which is, really, the point.


    I don't believe the lack of a mother and a father in the home is any more or less suboptimal than raising children under the poverty line, or in a bad neighborhood, or while disabled, etc. How do we single out one suboptimal condition, the lack of a female or male role model in the home, and say that this people under this particular suboptimal condition cannot marry, but those under the other suboptimal conditions can?

    Someone who thinks that a parent can be adequately replaced with a bit of cash will indeed probably have trouble saying that.


    If you disagree, find me a moral theory a liberal could not adhere to.

    Apparently, “natural law”.

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  155. Jeremy Taylor: Chad is correct that there has always been a degree of cultural pluralism. Where he is wrong is thinking that this means any amount of cultural pluralism is compatible with a modicum of social harmony and cohesion.

    The irony, of course, is that the social harmony enojyed in the West owes its success in no small part to its Christian heritage. Some folks look at the civilised society they inhabit and think, see how well it works for everyone to do his own thing and leave me alone; but as we are starting to see, once that licence starts to erode its foundation, society stops being so civil any more.

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  156. But if it's a real roll of the dice, are you really going to risk being required to adopt the faith of whatever the ruling party happens to be?

    There seems to be a problem here. The Natural Law Theorist along with any other objective ethical theorist save perhaps the Divine Command theorist makes no claim about this odd thing called 'faith' any more than the mathematician or logician need normally do. The same is equally if not more so with the Natural theologian. To say these things should be held as neutral is akin to claiming we should remain neutral as to the supposed truth of heliocentricism against geocentricism. Of course there are competing theories in various disciplines with closer degrees of plausibility than geocentricism (which is like atheism in that respect) so there may well still be disagreement only it's a disagreement over which of the options is true not useful.


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  157. "If, behind the veil of ignorance, you don't know what faith commitment you'll have when you're born, you wouldn't consent to the government teaching morals from any specific perspective."

    Are we playing name the fallacy here? If so this seems to be some form of the genetic fallacy.

    Also I am not simply saying gay [&] marriage is simply a deprived envirnment for children but actively bad. I also pointed out that it makes no sense even as a concept. It's placing a word arbitrarily on a collection of different things that aren't the same.

    As much as I genuinely have love and respect for these people, even in a relationship, I none the less hold to this point - It is of course through no fault of their on or some failing on their part.

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  158. should have been *enirnoment etc.

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  159. Greg,

    I didn't watch it, but my understanding is that it was on Sunday night, and did not start on Friday morning.

    I'm told that depends on whether or not you live in the South.

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  160. "Perhaps. But this seems incredibly unlikely to me. And moreover it wouldn't rebut the modal version of my argument; that is, I suggested that the suicide rate of zoophiles might (in some fairly similar possible world) be the most frequent of the relevant factors. So to make this sort of argument about consequences, you would be accepting (at least on those terms - other considerations could be brought in, but that would be to concede the point) that it's a contingent fact that political liberalism excludes bestiality, and it permits bestiality in a relatively close possible world."

    The broader point is not contingent: that it is impossible to take into account the suicide risk attendant to every possible law when planning out a just society. As the impossible is never obligatory, the Rawlsian would not be required to consider the risk of suicide when deliberating any particular law.

    "The problem is that ants would not be under the veil of freedom. They are not autonomous agents. There is a line somewhere. The Rawlsian has to argue that there are animals that are autonomous enough to deliberate under the veil of ignorance but not autonomous enough to consent. Perhaps that's true; it's not trivial or obvious."

    Animal rights Rawlsians acknowledge that, in practice, humans will have to do the deliberating for the animals. The point is to bring the perspective of animals into the deliberation as a legitimate concern, and to represent their interests.

    "I'm sure the animal-rights Rawlsians aren't stupid. But I haven't read them, and this is a bad argument on Rawlsian terms. It would be like arguing that I wouldn't take irresponsible lending practices off the table because I might work for Goldman Sachs."

    The main difference of course being that the ecosystem doesn't work without predation, and nearly every species of animal in the world would go extinct if it was ruled out.

    Even herbivores depend on predation to thin their herds and to prevent mass starvation resulting from overpopulation.

    "I imagine an animal-rights Rawlsian would be arguing for vegetarianism, so I doubt they would make this argument."

    Some do, others have no objection to meat-eating per se, so long as it's done under humane, free range conditions. Which are more or less the same conditions under which predation occurs in the wild.

    If you were reasoning from the perspective of an animal, you wouldn't object to animals being food. Animals need other animals as food, that's how the ecosystem works. What you'd object to is animals being forced into lives where they are nothing but food for another species, and have no chance to thrive in ways that do not involve them being food.

    (More...)

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  161. "But my point has never had anything to do with whether animals have moral responsibilities or should be charged with rape. The question is: Suppose A1, A2 are animals and H is a human. A1 cannot understand relationships with either A2 or H. Is it a bad thing (which we ought to halt) for A to have sex with x if A does not understand what a relationship with x entails? You have said that the answer to this question is yes; what values x take are not relevant (and whatever intuition was behind the principle would be lost if you were to deny this). But while that would rule out H as a partner for A1, it would also rule out A2. This doesn't have to do with morality but with what is good or bad for the animal."

    Yeah, looked at from a certain perspective, it's a bad thing when (at least some animals) rape other animals. It's also true that, from a certain perspective, it's a bad thing when a lame baby gazelle is eaten by a lion. We no more have a moral duty to prevent the former than we do the latter. Both are unarguably necessary for the continuation of the species in question.

    What's good for the animal isn't always what's good for the species.

    "We don't charge the German Shepard with rape, but we prevent it from mounting the beagle."

    If it's your beagle you might. If you see one dog mount another in the wild, you wouldn't.

    Now, I'd like to propose you a question:

    You seem to agree that it's sometimes bad when animals have non-consensual sex with other animals, as when the German Shepard mounts the beagle. You also seem to hold that some sexual relations between animals are totally unproblematic, and do not involve any badness to the animal.

    What criteria do you use to distinguish the sex between animals that involve badness from the sex that does not?

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  162. Chad Handley said...

    " 'Really? And you supposedly rely on Rawls for support in this?'

    Not at all, but his reasoning leads to the same result."


    Then why quote him as an authority, rather than present your argument based on the reasoning you actually purport to employ?

    You throw up Rawls. Rawls is knocked down and his base assumptions are revealed as crypto, just barely "crypto" at that, fascist.

    Then you say that that is not really your position anyway, but it serves as well functionally.

    What the hell is that all about?

    "... behind the veil of ignorance, ... you wouldn't consent to the government teaching morals from any specific perspective. You'd prefer the government simply maintained the peace and left people to their own moral consciences.

    ... again, I'd believe the government should not take the role of moral teacher whether Rawls agreed or not ..."


    You are not representing your own position honestly. You do in fact seem to think that government compulsion, deployed and directed as law in order to reshape the moral behavior and eventually the sensibilities of the culled and managed populace, rather than the Blackstonian reverse, is appropriate.

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  163. "This is irrelevant, because meat consumption could be far reduced in developed and undeveloped countries. I was just pointing out that it could possibly be eliminated in developed countries, if we were committed to it. Moreover, undeveloped countries generally have lower meat consumption anyway. And it is irrelevant for another reason: I might live in either a developed or undeveloped country, but if meat consumption can be eliminated only in developed countries, it would have to be eliminated there. On Rawlsian principles you couldn't argue that the undeveloped nations can't do away with meat consumption (a grave injustice) so developed nations (who can do away with it) don't have to either."

    I've already admitted, many, many posts ago, that the Rawlsian would probably have to advocate reduction of meat consumption.

    "Conservatives can rule out bestiality by appealing to... final causality or one-flesh union."

    So can liberals.

    You can believe in final causes without being a Thomist.

    You can believe in one-flesh union while being a political liberal.

    "Liberals could attempt to modify such principles, but they then face a tension by trying to defend an impure theory...This is probably true, but most American, British, and Australian conservatives are liberals. (You could probably say that the sort of conservatism you talk about, i.e. what would usually be called 'conservative' on Fox, CNN, and MSNBC, is itself an impure theory. For that matter, the sort of liberalism you talk about probably is too. They are both impure versions of libertarianism.)"

    Okay, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

    By saying liberals are limited, you're obviously implying that conservatives aren't. So if Anglophile conservatives are "really liberals" then who the hell counts as a conservative? Only Thomists?

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  164. "Then why quote him as an authority, rather than present your argument based on the reasoning you actually purport to employ?"

    I gave my reasoning several times: I don't want the government to be the moral teacher because I don't want someone whose morals differ radically from mine using the power of the government to force their moral teachings on me.

    I didn't depend on Rawls to come to that conclusion, though, as I said in the previous post that you are somehow simultaneously quoting and ignoring, Rawlsian reasoning would support it.

    "You do in fact seem to think that government compulsion, deployed and directed as law in order to reshape the moral behavior and eventually the sensibilities of the culled and managed populace, rather than the Blackstonian reverse, is appropriate."

    No, I don't, and I've said nothing to indicate otherwise.

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  165. @ Chad

    So can liberals.

    You can believe in final causes without being a Thomist.

    You can believe in one-flesh union while being a political liberal.


    Then the liberal is, as I've pointed out, defending an impure theory. This is difficult for him to do; as such his appeal is on shakier ground than that of conservatives.

    More specifically, the conclusion he is then defending is that such thick metaphysical considerations can be brought to bear on questions of public interest. It is much harder for him to argue that they cannot bear on the question of homosexuality. This is especially true because liberal objections to such principles (i.e. parody objections or blank stare) will have to be rejected.

    The liberal who brings in final causes or one-flesh union to rule out bestiality also is not a Rawlsian. You can believe in them, sure. Political liberals can also believe the Holocaust was a good thing. They can't argue that the state should not permit bestiality on grounds of final causes or one-flesh union.

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  166. "Unless the best way to live in harmony is by Natural Law. Which of course it is, given that the one thing any group of men can be known to have in common is their shared Nature. Which is, really, the point."

    Unless men disagree on whether or not they even have natures, and whether, if they do, those natures are morally or politically relevant.

    And what if those men who disagree with you won't consent to being ruled by you?

    What does Natural Law say you should do if you find yourself in a multicultural society in which the majority of people do not subscribe to Natural Law?

    "Someone who thinks that a parent can be adequately replaced with a bit of cash will indeed probably have trouble saying that."

    To say that raising a child in poverty is more difficult is not to say that a parent can be replaced by "a bit of cash."

    "Apparently, “natural law”.

    Is it not possible to adhere to natural law as a MORAL THEORY while not subscribing to it as a political theory?

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  167. "Then the liberal is, as I've pointed out, defending an impure theory. This is difficult for him to do; as such his appeal is on shakier ground than that of conservatives."

    This statement is meaningless, in light of your previous statements, until you define what a conservative is.

    Again, if almost all English-speaking conservatives count as liberals on your view, then I neither know what you mean when you say conservative, nor what you mean when you say liberal.

    The conversation can't meaningfully continue until you've cleard this up.

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  168. I won't define 'conservative'. It is sufficient for my argument that Thomists are conservatives, not that conservatives are Thomists.

    I actually think that 'conservative' is not generally a helpful term; I am mainly using it as 'not-a-liberal', where, as I've said a couple times now, liberals are members of a tradition of thought originating during the Enlightenment with particular views about the value of autonomy and human freedom (generally concluding that thick accounts of the good are not themselves publically reasonable; believing that there is a sweeping and decisive distinction between 'the right' and 'the good'; etc.).

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  169. Chad,

    behind the veil of ignorance, should I ask myself, "could I, in this society I am trying to create here, end up as a zoophile? How would I want this society to be set up, were I to end up as a zoophile?"

    If we're including animals, I could ask myself whether or not I'd end up as an animal that fancied humans?

    If I can worry about whether or not I'd end up a Tiger, surely I could worry about these questions.

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  170. "I won't define 'conservative'. It is sufficient for my argument that Thomists are conservatives, not that conservatives are Thomists."

    But your conclusion that conservatives are better equipped in this area, if they apply at all, only apply to Thomists. So it seems deliberately dishonest to present the argument as if you were drawing a distinction between liberals and conservatives, when you're really just drawing a distinction between Thomists and Non-Thomists.

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  171. "If I can worry about whether or not I'd end up a Tiger, surely I could worry about these questions"

    The point about the tiger is that it's obviously silly to posit a rule which would usher in mass extinction of most animal species. No such dire consequences follow from the fact that some zoophines and some mythical human-fancying animals might be sexually frustrated. The two concerns are not on the same level of importance, to say the least.

    At any rate, Rawlsian reasoning always favors the least well-off member of the community. The least well-off member of the community in an animal-friendly Rawlsianism would be the animal that does not fancy humans.

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  172. OK, I've reread through a number of Chad's posts and from what I can tell, the problem resides in the fact that definitions and references we are using are not, as he complains, transparent and mutually consistent, but that this is something for which he is himself somewhat at fault.

    I take it that Chad believes his position ultimately reduces to the claim that "'political' liberalism" per se does not per definition imply anything necessary regarding the social tastes and the more casual cultural dispositions of the political liberal.

    This, insofar as we make allowances for, and exempt from inclusion the specific and under-girding anthropological theory which has historically justified political liberalism itself, may be viewed as largely correct.

    Classical political liberalism then through time becomes further abstracted and rarefied, evolving into as a kind of content-less vessel aimed merely at preserving the system of arbitrating rules itself.

    That of course produces for the social liberal, problems of so-called social equity and distributive justice which offend their sensibilities and which they wish the state to address.

    The problem then is that,
    1. Modern liberals themselves reject the practices of classical political liberalism in favor of arranging and guaranteeing certain substantive outcomes. In order to ensure these outcomes they knowingly subvert the very system of political liberalism which Chad seems to imagine that they can successfully live with. They DEMAND affirmation, not just bland tolerance. The current Chief executive is on record as admitting as much.

    2. Chad adverts to Rawls as if Rawls has rescued and preserved something of the Classical Liberal tradition from the assault of an unbridled utilitarianism; when Rawlsian "liberalism" itself contains certain collectivist predicates which, although being methodologically exempted from scrutiny, substantively involve classically illiberal results: these, through saddling certain individuals with communitarian and fascistical interpersonal baggage [the demand that you grant esteem for example] they would not otherwise adopt, and by denying that these individuals are even entitled by justice to the personal management and possession of their own life being: or, as Rawls wishes to metaphorically veil it, "their own natural gifts". As if, fungible and equal souls were literally dropped into variously admirable or not embodiments, by an indifferent counter clerk handing out the uniforms of humanity. "Hey, my pants are too short! No fair!"

    3. Chad seemingly describes his own "political" preferences, in recounting the avowed sociopolitical leanings of more explicitly social and political liberals (as the term liberal is commonly used nowadays)and leaves the impression that he agrees with a fair percentage of the socially substantive content.

    Viz., "There are straightforwardly political statements that could be meaningfully broadly applied to most liberals. I'd agree that most liberals prefer a larger government than most conservatives. I'd agree that most liberals are more willing to accept laws that privilege minority groups. There are meaningful generalizations about liberals that I think are correct."



    Chad's strategy is I think, to attempt to walk a very fine line which he may ignore whenever convenient. What he actually means by "political liberal" I cannot guess.

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  173. DNW,

    You are not representing your own position honestly. You do in fact seem to think that government compulsion, deployed and directed as law in order to reshape the moral behavior and eventually the sensibilities of the culled and managed populace, rather than the Blackstonian reverse, is appropriate.

    Bingo. And on that topic...

    For people wondering why I regard Chad with some obvious contempt, and he's absolutely frantic when responding to me, let me pull a quote.

    I'm not opposed to fighting an unwinnable war on principle if it's a war worth fighting - if it's the most important war of our time. But I'd argue gay marriage isn't close to that important, and if I'm going to fight an unwinnable war as a Christian, I'd rather fight it against abortion.

    If, as many suppose, we are in a culture war, it's time more Christians start thinking strategy. It would be nice to win every battle, but in war sometimes you have to give ground to gain ground, and avoid some battles altogether in order to win the war.


    Pulled from here.

    That'd be Chad. 'You know - gosh, it'd be nice to win the fight against gay marriage, but darn it.. think strategically! We're losing! We're losing *sniff* *sob* SOULS! Oh my god, the souls we're losing, people are being lost forever, Jesus... please, for the sake of the souls, let's just be silent about gay marriage. It doesn't matter! It doesn't harm us! We can put this aside, and save souls! We're not giving up... we'll revisit this issue later! In a hundred years, maybe things will be better!'

    After pressing, it turns out Chad wasn't advocating a strategic sacrifice of -his- views. He's completely in favor of gay marriage. But hey, it's far more persuasive to present himself as being on the side of the people he's advising - more rhetorically effective and all.

    Now me? I regard this as some rotten dishonesty - the sort of thing that, once a person engages in it, I'm pretty well done with giving them the benefit of the doubt. So I regard his whole routine on this subject as, according to evidence and a reasonable interpretation, a routine. Schtick. And therefore, I'm not surprised when he keeps giving justifications of his view, and when the justifications are shot down, he just drops them altogether and tries to scrounge together something else - but suspiciously, the view on gay marriage and the justification of opposing it remains constant.

    Either way, I see he's fled numerous trenches, and has fallen back to "but we're in a multicultural society!" One could easily ask if he then thinks it's acceptable that various countries where same-sex marriage has nigh-unanimous levels of condemnation are right to ban it.

    Care to guess if, at that point, you'll hear lectures about how it's terrible because 'They oppose it because they're homophobic bigots, not for RIGHT reasons' and thus their opposition to gay marriage is invalid?

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  174. "At any rate, Rawlsian reasoning always favors the least well-off member of the community. The least well-off member of the community in an animal-friendly Rawlsianism would be the animal that does not fancy humans."

    Ok, so you are advocating for a moral theory, then.

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  175. " I've reread through a number of Chad's posts"

    from everything else you say in this post, it doesn't really seem like it...

    It's not part of my argument that liberals don't sometimes go too far, or betray their own principles, in practicing politics. Of course they do. So do Thomists, So do you.

    That's irrelevant to the point, that liberals aren't barred access by their liberalism from any moral theory.

    You seem to have a need to whine about the shortcomings of liberalism, which is perfectly fine, so long as you keep in mind that your desire to whine has nothing to do with anything I've said. Leave me out of it.

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  176. "Ok, so you are advocating for a moral theory, then."

    No, it's a practical, political concern. Worst case scenario, you could end up being the least well off member of a society. So it just be practical political reasoning to make sure your worst case scenario is a bearable existence. Even if you were a moral nihilist, this conclusion would still follow.

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  177. @ Chad

    But your conclusion that conservatives are better equipped in this area, if they apply at all, only apply to Thomists. So it seems deliberately dishonest to present the argument as if you were drawing a distinction between liberals and conservatives, when you're really just drawing a distinction between Thomists and Non-Thomists.

    Well, I gave an argument that political liberalism has difficulty handling the complaints of sexually frustrated zoophiles, if it cedes ground to the sexually frustrated homosexual. That has nothing to do with conservatives, Thomist or otherwise. You have a habit of grabbing onto a comment that does not constitute the crux of the argument and acting as though by arguing against that point, you have given any reason to reject the argument.

    That said, I am not merely drawing a distinction between Thomists and non-Thomists, since Thomists are not the only people who take thick views of the meaning and purpose of sexuality and believe that their views are publically normative (i.e. a position that political liberals reject).

    But the tension remains. A zoophile is poorly off in a way analogous to a homosexual. To rebut his claim, you make the move of adding some bells and whistles to Rawlsianism. But insofar as animals are capable of entering the veil of ignorance, they are autonomous, so the argument that they cannot consent is thereby weakened.

    Someone who takes a thick view of human sexuality (a position that political liberalism excludes insofar as it has any impact on public behavior) rules all of this out in one stroke. He doesn't have to worry about weighing the capacity of animals to understand; he doesn't have to worry whether there is some overlap in the lower reaches of the autonomy required to enter the veil of ignorance and the autonomy required to give consent. Call him a conservative or don't; I don't really care.

    Clearly the latter person, with a thick view of human sexuality, is less apt to accept that the state must tolerate bestiality. I can give another modal argument here: It is merely a contingent fact that there are no animals autonomous enough to give consent. So even if you miraculously managed to make a publically reasonable argument to the effect that every animal that can enter the veil of ignorance is nevertheless too stupid to give consent, there will be some overlap in terms of capacities. That is, there is a possible evolutionary chain that terminates in fully rational beings (who, we can suppose, are physiologically very different from humans). Those animals can understand relationships with humans and can consent to humans. Surely this is not the distinction on which the political liberal's rejection (or public intolerance) of bestiality rests. For if it were, then the claim that poltical liberals are obviously capable of resisting arguments for bestiality is obviously false.

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  178. For interested parties, the reason I'm not responding to Crude, is that I've corrected him on my stance on gay marriage dozens of times (indeed, the distinctions I've drawn in this thread between political theories and moral theories should show why I believe it is not dishonest to favor the legality of gay marriage even though one considers it morally wrong. Also, obviously, there is no dishonesty in both thinking that a fight isn't worth winning AND that it shouldn't be won. And, there's no moral obligation, when you know you're among people who would vehemently disagree with you about whether the fight should be won, to focus your attempts at persuasion on a possible point of common agreement - that the fight's not worth having).

    Crude has proven invulnerable to correction on all of these points.

    Tediously.

    Repeatedly.

    Relentlessly.

    He's also pretty creepily stalkerish in his fervent desire to re-litigate that one conversation every time I comment on this forum, regardless of what's being discussed.

    I don't dislike Crude, I don't even think Crude is unintelligent or otherwise unworthy of consideration. But with regards to his relationship to me, I consider him to be unhealthily obsessed, and I'm not going to feed the obsession.

    My last word on the matter. (But if you want to hear more, don't worry. Crude won't ever stop.)

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  179. "You have a habit of grabbing onto a comment that does not constitute the crux of the argument and acting as though by arguing against that point, you have given any reason to reject the argument."

    hit the nail on the head there, Greg.

    Chad,

    "Worst case scenario, you could end up being the least well off member of a society."

    Nooo... I could end up being any member of that society. Except that this society seems to be created as a result of everyone being worried about being the least well off member of it, except I couldn't know what the least well off member of this society would look like, only the least well off member of some society that I'm somewhat familiar with ("homeless person" is not a natural kind, after all). It might turn out, then, in Chad's world, that being a megalomaniac doomed me to the lowest rung on the social ladder. We don't need to go that far, since obviously zoophiles are a great example of a kind of person that ends up on this lower rung - left with nothing but shame and frustration. I don't think you're appreciating just how contingent the "least of these" ends up being in Chad's world, so long as the pretense of moral neutrality is maintained.

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  180. "Well, I gave an argument that political liberalism has difficulty handling the complaints of sexually frustrated zoophiles, if it cedes ground to the sexually frustrated homosexual. That has nothing to do with conservatives, Thomist or otherwise. You have a habit of grabbing onto a comment that does not constitute the crux of the argument and acting as though by arguing against that point, you have given any reason to reject the argument."

    The main reason I object to your argument is that it doesn't work. The concept of consent seems to be perfectly capable of providing a relevant disanalogy between homosexual and bestial relations. Your rebuttals of this point didn't really seem to go anywhere, except to maybe require that the liberal accept that something non-morally bad, that he has no moral obligation to stop (and probably a positive moral obligation to allow) might be happening every time animals have sex.

    As you ducked the requirement to show that conservatives can more readily handle the distinction between when animal sex involves "badness" (which you admitted it sometimes did) and when it did not, you haven't shown that conservatives have any advantage over liberals here.

    IOW, I reject your argument because, as near as I can see, it completely fails.

    "But the tension remains. A zoophile is poorly off in a way analogous to a homosexual. To rebut his claim, you make the move of adding some bells and whistles to Rawlsianism. But insofar as animals are capable of entering the veil of ignorance, they are autonomous, so the argument that they cannot consent is thereby weakened."

    You're just ignoring what I'm saying: I've already said that humans have to do the reasoning for the animals with regards to the veil of ignorance. Obviously, animal-rights Rawlsians aren't literally inviting sheep to the table. They're merely considering the animal's interests, and that some things are conducive to the animal's thriving and well-being. Conceding all of that in no way concedes that animals are autonomous.

    "He doesn't have to worry about weighing the capacity of animals to understand"

    Unless this conservative is you, and he's admitted that some animal sex is bad in a way that ought to be prevented, but he has no way of distinguishing the bad animal sex from the non-bad animal sex.

    "he doesn't have to worry whether there is some overlap in the lower reaches of the autonomy required to enter the veil of ignorance and the autonomy required to give consent."

    Neither does the animal-rights Rawlsian, who is not so stupid as to actually ask the sheep what he wants.

    "It is merely a contingent fact that there are no animals autonomous enough to give consent."

    Sure, and it's also a contingent fact that humans can only procreate with other humans. If there were a non-human sentient species that could not only consent but with whom humans could procreate, then the natural law arguments against bestiality would cease to be relevant. So, the prohibition against bestiality is contingent for both sides.

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  181. Chad,

    For interested parties, the reason I'm not responding to Crude, is that I've corrected him on my stance on gay marriage dozens of times

    There's been no 'correcting'. There's been denials, there's been attempts at excusing flat-out dishonesty, in the way that we're seeing right now. Hence, replies like this:

    Also, obviously, there is no dishonesty in both thinking that a fight isn't worth winning AND that it shouldn't be won.

    When you are strongly insinuating that you are on the same intellectual side as the people you are talking with - when you make reference to what 'we' should do, how 'we' have to start thinking strategically, and how 'we' should maybe revisit this issue in a hundred years to continue fighting it - when in reality you're opposing what you're talking about? Yes, there is dishonesty.

    It's not 'focusing on points of common agreement' to do the above. It's just bland deception, no different than showing up at a political party you actually oppose, and arguing strenuously that the cause is lost and that they should give up. Saying 'Well sure, I work for the other side, and sure I presented myself to strongly suggest I was on your side, and I was trying my ass off to discourage you... but how dare you accuse me of deception!' would be unconvincing.

    He's also pretty creepily stalkerish in his fervent desire to re-litigate that one conversation every time I comment on this forum, regardless of what's being discussed.

    No, I think the creepy stalkerish sort is the guy who dishonestly presents himself and tries to convince them all is lost, posing as a supporter when in reality being anything but. And frankly, as we both know - I have little desire to have much to do with you.

    But when I see people, reasonable sorts, wasting their time and banging their heads against the wall trying to explain things to you, and you keep shifting your arguments, misinterpreting one thing, changing another, I think it helps to say 'Hey guys, the person you're arguing with? Not particularly the most honest person.'

    See, Chad - when you drive yourself to lying, when you feel the need to sockpuppet, when you're dishonest in conversation and will bend every whichway trying to provide defenses of gay marriage, to the point where you're willing to imply you're on the side of the opponents in the hopes of discouraging them?

    That is some actual creepy, weirdo stalker behavior.

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  182. "I couldn't know what the least well off member of this society would look like, only the least well off member of some society that I'm somewhat familiar with ("homeless person" is not a natural kind, after all)."

    Veil reaosning wouldn't require you to actually be psychic. You'd only need to know the least well off in terms of the proposed law or rule or course of action. So, when considering the legality of bestiality, the least well off is easily identified - the animal who doesn't want to be sexually used by humans.

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  183. Chad Handley,

    An aside on the main conversation. You keep presenting Rawlsian political liberalism as a more practical politic than Natural Law. That may be so. I don't know enough about either Rawls or natural law to say. But I'm not at all convinced people can enter this Rawlsian original position. Is there any evidence that people actually can enter Rawls's original position?

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  184. Chad writes: " You seem to have a need to whine about the shortcomings of liberalism, which is perfectly fine, so long as you keep in mind that your desire to whine has nothing to do with anything I've said. Leave me out of it.
    February 4, 2015 at 11:25 AM "




    Spare us the, aggrieved innocent, routine, champ.

    You will note, or others will note for you, that the post of which you are complaining and to which you are now replying was not addressed to you. But, was rather about your troubles in making your own position - whatever it is, and whatever predicate it is ultimately based on - clear to people here.

    That said, my comment was rather charitable in tone toward you, and conceded that you might be staking your general approach on a somewhat nowadays smeary distinction between the "political" liberal, as classically understood, and social liberals as they presently exist in all their solidarity pimping, economically redistributive, life appropriating, politically subversive, glory.

    Now, after having explicitly and persistently invited the attention you have received, direct or indirect, you begin to posture and pout.

    Leave you out of it? You are it you silly twit, because you have made yourself "it".

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  185. You'd only need to know the least well off in terms of the proposed law or rule or course of action. So, when considering the legality of bestiality, the least well off is easily identified - the animal who doesn't want to be sexually used by humans.

    Which is also going to have to be balanced against the animals who would actually desire sexual activity with humans, and will be denied it. Not to mention the question of whether animals in general particularly care about this sort of thing, except in limit cases.

    Also, note the problem with the reply to the vegetarian example: As I said before, the Rawlsian could accept that where more important issues are at stake, such as the prevention of mass starvation and malnutrition among large numbers of humans, considerations of animal consent can be overridden. There are no such issues at stake with regard to bestiality.

    On what grounds is anyone going to argue what is or isn't the 'more important issue', such that 'there are no such issues at stake with regard to bestiality'? It's trivial to come up with rationales that would create issues at stake.

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  186. "But I'm not at all convinced people can enter this Rawlsian original position. Is there any evidence that people actually can enter Rawls's original position?"

    I don't know how to answer this. Why would you think they can't?

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  187. @ John West

    But I'm not at all convinced people can enter this Rawlsian original position. Is there any evidence that people actually can enter Rawls's original position?

    People can't. It is a thought experiment, and the person who enters the veil of ignorance is considered only in the abstract.

    For which reason, the claim that we deliberate for the animals, rather than letting the animals enter, appears to miss the point. Rawls intends the argument to be a straight deduction from what a single rational person in the veil of ignorance would conclude; the thought experiment is not that we all enter the veil of ignorance and vote, since every person entering the veil of ignorance must (if it is any good) come to the exact same conclusions.

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  188. Crude said...

    Chad,

    ' For interested parties, the reason I'm not responding to Crude, is that I've corrected him on my stance on gay marriage dozens of times ...'

    There's been no 'correcting'. There's been denials, there's been attempts at excusing flat-out dishonesty, in the way that we're seeing right now. Hence, replies like this:

    Also, obviously, there is no dishonesty in both thinking that a fight isn't worth winning AND that it shouldn't be won. ...."





    Just for the record, do you have a clear and distinct idea of what Chad's trying to say as regards the supposed moral neutrality if not nescience of "liberalism"?


    It certainly looks as though he is in the bizarre position of trying to establish political, and even some social entitlements in a purely secular system, free, of any animadversion to arbitratively common natures upon which one might stake such claims.

    We just what, assume it, per Rawls?

    A bitch jumps my fence and whelps in my yard, and deserves to be fed by me, merely because it is there, so to speak?

    Now I might voluntarily do so out of pity - the result of an emotion storm you might say - of course. Or I might believe it is a Divine commandment that I do so. Or I might try to make some secular argument based, as European hermeneuticists try, or so they have told me, to do on the basis of some supposedly natural fellowship of beings.

    But what could that mean?

    "Fellow beings". You know, your wife, your favorite bird dog, that cat that lounges contentedly in the window of the dying widow's apartment, mosquitoes, and Marxist bureaucrat vampires. All "fellow beings" for what that observation is worth.

    So in what way are these "let's pretend" arguments intellectually persuasive, again?

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  189. Chad,

    How in the whole wide world would you think that being psychic had anything to do with what I said? You seem to just be replying to whatever it's convenient for you to imagine your interlocutor's are arguing.

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  190. "every person entering the veil of ignorance must (if it is any good) come to the exact same conclusions."

    I've always thought that the person in the original position sounded uncomfortably like God, that is - a maximally rational and maximally unbiased modernist kinda God.

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  191. @ Chad

    Your rebuttals of this point didn't really seem to go anywhere, except to maybe require that the liberal accept that something non-morally bad, that he has no moral obligation to stop (and probably a positive moral obligation to allow) might be happening every time animals have sex.

    My argument actually contained the claim that there is some animal sex that we would stop, even though neither of the animals is morally at fault. Similarly, we might stop animals from killing each other, even though neither of the animals is morally at fault.

    As you ducked the requirement to show that conservatives can more readily handle the distinction between when animal sex involves "badness" (which you admitted it sometimes did) and when it did not, you haven't shown that conservatives have any advantage over liberals here.

    Well, I actually find the claim that animals can't consent to each other overwhelmingly implausible. There is some animal sex with which there is nothing wrong; there is other animal sex where on animal is violated by the other. I think the difference between such cases is pretty obviously that animals are capable of consent.

    That does strain the claim that animals can't consent to humans, either, since that is usually stated matter-of-factly, as though it were impossible in principle. But it just strikes me as a post hoc justification, because those who broadly accept the principles of political liberalism don't have other reliable means to rule out bestiality, and on other topics in sexual ethics, some liberals claim that nothing but consent matters.

    Obviously, animal-rights Rawlsians aren't literally inviting sheep to the table. They're merely considering the animal's interests, and that some things are conducive to the animal's thriving and well-being. Conceding all of that in no way concedes that animals are autonomous.

    As I've said in my reply to John West, this does not appear consistent with the way Rawls runs his own veil of ignorance, but perhaps the animal-rights Rawlsians change more of Rawls than they let on. (Again, I haven't read them.)

    But you still haven't said anything about which animals we consider in the veil of ignorance. Under the veil of ignorance, we don't consider that we might be ants. So the dilemma here has not been eliminated; once again, you've grabbed the wrong point. One still has to figure out which animals are due consideration, and one has to argue that in fact though those animals possess enough of X mental characteristic to be due consideration under the veil of ignorance, they possess little enough of mental characteristic Y so that they cannot give consent. Can this be done? Perhaps. But it's an exercise in metaphysics rather than publically reasonable political theory, and insofar as it introduces more terms into the discussion, it acquires the appearance of ad hoccery. Moreover it is still susceptible to a modal argument.

    Unless this conservative is you, and he's admitted that some animal sex is bad in a way that ought to be prevented, but he has no way of distinguishing the bad animal sex from the non-bad animal sex.

    I haven't conceded this. I think we can agree that there is some animal sex that is fine. I think we can also agree that in some cases (like the mounting of the beagle by a German Shepard it has never met) animal sex is not fine. These are perfectly distinguishable. The difference between the two cases, I'd submit, is consent. What else? To be sure, there is a gradation here, but that poses no particular problem.

    Sure, and it's also a contingent fact that humans can only procreate with other humans.

    Well, capacity for procreation (as I'm sure you know) is not a sufficient condition for the permissibility of sex on the natural law view, so this is irrelevant. And the sufficient conditions are literally essential, i.e. they flow from the human essence, so this will be a tough retort to make stick.

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  192. DNW,

    Just for the record, do you have a clear and distinct idea of what Chad's trying to say as regards the supposed moral neutrality if not nescience of "liberalism"?

    Not from the past, and really, I stopped trying to make sense of it once a whole lot of fury in defense of 'liberals' (which I distinguished against 'progressives' right from the start) gave way to a definition of 'liberal' which included basically not just everyone in the conversation, but every example of a 'conservative' up until that point.

    My money says 'he's bullshitting again, so if you're investing time in this, make sure you know what you're doing'. Hence my bringing up of that past event.

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  193. Chad Handley,

    I don't know how to answer this. Why would you think they can't?

    I don't see how people can deprive themselves of information about their particular characteristics: ethnicity, social status, gender, and Conception of the Good. Short of a lobotomy or memory loss, people cannot just stop knowing facts.

    Greg,

    People can't. It is a thought experiment, and the person who enters the veil of ignorance is considered only in the abstract.

    Thanks.

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  194. "How in the whole wide world would you think that being psychic had anything to do with what I said? You seem to just be replying to whatever it's convenient for you to imagine your interlocutor's are arguing."

    I'm pretty sure I exactly answered your question.

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  195. Greg said...

    @ John West

    But I'm not at all convinced people can enter this Rawlsian original position. Is there any evidence that people actually can enter Rawls's original position?

    People can't. It is a thought experiment, and the person who enters the veil of ignorance is considered only in the abstract. ...

    February 4, 2015 at 12:45 PM



    That is right. It is a "thought experiment" arranged to produce a particular conclusion, with the hope no one notices or cares too much.

    You are considered in the abstract relative to a prearranged goal.

    Unfortunately for Rawls' plan, we do not live in the abstract; and, you have to want the result first in order to accept the "conclusion" to which the premiss and the subsequent "reasoning" supposedly leads.

    You become a willing social victim in order to pay the autogenic debts of others which you have not incurred, and which it may not be in your best interest to underwrite - unless you first imagine that it is in your overall "best interest" to be victimized.

    At least whatshisname, lately of the Hippie-Bonobo social values scheme, had the decency and good humor to admit the charge.

    I mentioned Henry Maine earlier because the Rawls' original position's status as a construct somewhat parallels Hobbes' original state of nature reasoning.

    I guess modern political philosophers like Rawls can't get away with just making shit up the way they used - at least for a time - to do.

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