Saturday, December 20, 2014

Knowing an ape from Adam


On questions about biological evolution, both the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and Thomist philosophers and theologians have tended carefully to steer a middle course.  On the one hand, they have allowed that a fairly wide range of biological phenomena may in principle be susceptible of evolutionary explanation, consistent with Catholic doctrine and Thomistic metaphysics.  On the other hand, they have also insisted, on philosophical and theological grounds, that not every biological phenomenon can be given an evolutionary explanation, and they refuse to issue a “blank check” to a purely naturalistic construal of evolution.  Evolutionary explanations are invariably a mixture of empirical and philosophical considerations.  Properly to be understood, the empirical considerations have to be situated within a sound metaphysics and philosophy of nature.

For the Thomist, this will have to include the doctrine of the four causes, the principle of proportionate causality, the distinction between primary and secondary causality, and the other key notions of Aristotelian-Thomistic (A-T) metaphysics and philosophy of nature (detailed defense of which can be found in Scholastic Metaphysics).  All of this is perfectly consistent with the empirical evidence, and those who claim otherwise are really implicitly appealing to their own alternative, naturalistic metaphysical assumptions rather than to empirical science.  (Some earlier posts bringing A-T philosophical notions to bear on biological phenomena can be found here, here, here, here, and here.  As longtime readers know, A-T objections to naturalism have absolutely nothing to do with “Intelligent Design” theory, and A-T philosophers are often very critical of ID.  Posts on the dispute between A-T and ID can be found collected here.)

On the subject of human origins, both the Magisterium and Thomist philosophers have acknowledged that an evolutionary explanation of the origin of the human body is consistent with non-negotiable theological and philosophical principles.  However, since the intellect can be shown on purely philosophical grounds to be immaterial, it is impossible in principle for the intellect to have arisen through evolution.  And since the intellect is the chief power of the human soul, it is therefore impossible in principle for the human soul to have arisen through evolution.  Indeed, given its nature the human soul has to be specially created and infused into the body by God -- not only in the case of the first human being but with every human being.  Hence the Magisterium and Thomist philosophers have held that special divine action was necessary at the beginning of the human race in order for the human soul, and thus a true human being, to have come into existence even given the supposition that the matter into which the soul was infused had arisen via evolutionary processes from non-human ancestors.

In a recent article at Crisis magazine, Prof. Dennis Bonnette correctly notes that Catholic teaching also requires that there be a single pair from whom all human beings have inherited the stain of original sin.  He also rightly complains that too many Catholics wrongly suppose that this teaching can be allegorized away and the standard naturalistic story about human origins accepted wholesale. 

The sober middle ground

Naturally, that raises the question of how the traditional teaching about original sin can be reconciled with what contemporary biologists have to say about human origins.  I’ll return to that subject in a moment.  But first, it is important to emphasize that the range of possible views consistent with Catholic teaching and A-T metaphysics is very wide, but also not indefinitely wide.  Some traditionalist Catholics seem to think that the willingness of the Magisterium and of contemporary Thomist philosophers to be open to evolutionary explanations is a novelty introduced after Vatican II.  That is simply not the case.  Many other Catholics seem to think that Pope St. John Paul II gave carte blanche to Catholics to accept whatever claims about evolution contemporary biologists happen to make in the name of science.  That is also simply not the case.  The Catholic position, and the Thomist position, is the middle ground one I have been describing.  It allows for a fairly wide range of debate about what kinds of evolutionary explanations might be possible and, if possible, plausible; but it also rules out, in principle, a completely naturalistic understanding of evolution. 

Perhaps the best-known magisterial statement on these matters is that of Pope Pius XII in his 1950 encyclical Humani Generis.  In sections 36-37 he says:

[T]he Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter -- for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.  However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church…

When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty.  For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.  Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

The pope here allows for the possibility of an evolutionary explanation of the human body and also, in strong terms, rules out both any evolutionary explanation for the human soul and any denial that human beings have a single man as their common ancestor.  This combination of theses was common in Thomistic philosophy and in orthodox Catholic theology at this time, and can be found in Neo-Scholastic era manuals published, with the Imprimatur, both before 1950 and in the years after Humani Generis but before Vatican II.

For example, in Celestine Bittle’s The Whole Man: Psychology, published in 1945, we find:

[T]he evolution of man’s body could, per se, have been included in the general scheme of the evolutionary process of all organisms.  Evolution would be a fair working hypothesis, because it makes little difference whether God created man directly or used the indirect method of evolution…

Whatever may be the ultimate verdict of science and philosophy concerning the origin of man’s body, whether through organic evolution or through a special act of divine intervention, man’s soul is not the product of evolution. (p. 585)

George Klubertanz, in Philosophy of Human Nature (1953), writes:

Essential evolution of living things up to and including the human body (the whole man with his spiritual soul excluded…), as explained through equivocal causality, chance, and Providence, is a possible explanation of the origin of those living things.  The possibility of this mode of origin can be admitted by both philosopher and theologian. (p. 425)

Klubertanz adds in a footnote:

There are some theological problems involved in such an admission; these problems do not concern us here.  Suffice it to say that at least some competent theologians think these problems can be solved; at any rate, a difficulty does not of itself constitute a refutation.

At the end of two chapters analyzing the metaphysics of evolution from a Thomistic point of view, Henry Koren, in his indispensible An Introduction to the Philosophy of Animate Nature (1955), concludes:

[T]here would seem to be no philosophical objection against any theory which holds that even widely different kinds of animals (or plants) have originated from primitive organisms through the forces of matter inherent to these organisms and other material agents…

Even in the case of man there appears to be no reason why the evolution of his body from primitive organisms (and even from inanimate matter) must be considered to be philosophically impossible.  Of course… man’s soul can have obtained its existence only through a direct act of creation; therefore, it is impossible for the human soul to have evolved from matter.  In a certain sense, even the human body must be said to be the result of an act of creation.  For the human body is made specifically human by the human soul, and the soul is created; hence as a human body, man’s body results from creation.  But the question is whether the matter of his body had to be made suitable for actuation by a rational soul through God’s special intervention, or if the same result could have been achieved by the forces of nature acting as directed by God.  As we have seen… there seems to be no reason why the second alternative would have to be an impossibility. (pp. 302-4)

Adolphe Tanquerey, in Volume I of A Manual of Dogmatic Theology (1959), writes:

It is de fide that our first parents in regard to body and in regard to soul were created by God: it is certain that their souls were created immediately by God; the opinion, once common, which asserts that even man’s body was formed immediately by God has now fallen into controversy…

As long as the spiritual origin of the human soul is correctly preserved, the differences of body between man and ape do not oppose the origin of the human body from animality

The opinion which asserts that the human body has arisen from animality through the forces of evolution is not heretical, in fact in can be admitted theologically…

Thesis: The universal human race has arisen from the one first parent Adam.  According to many theologians this statement is proximate to a matter of faith.  (pp. 394-98)

Similarly, Ludwig Ott’s well-known Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, in the 1960 fourth edition, states:

The soul of the first man was created immediately by God out of nothing.  As regards the body, its immediate formation from inorganic stuff by God cannot be maintained with certainty.  Fundamentally, the possibility exists that God breathed the spiritual soul into an organic stuff, that is, into an originally animal body…

The Encyclical “Humani generis” of Pius XII (1950) lays down that the question of the origin of the human body is open to free research by natural scientists and theologians

Against… the view of certain modern scientists, according to which the various races are derived from several separated stems (polygenism), the Church teaches that the first human beings, Adam and Eve, are the progenitors of the whole human race (monogenism).  The teaching of the unity of the human race is not, indeed, a dogma, but it is a necessary pre-supposition of the dogma of Original Sin and Redemption. (pp. 94-96)

J. F. Donceel, in Philosophical Psychology (1961), writes:

Until a hundred years ago it was traditionally held that the matter into which God for the first time infused a human soul was inorganic matter (the dust of the earth).  We have now very good scientific reasons for admitting that this matter was, in reality, organic matter -- that is, the body of some apelike animal.

Aquinas held that some time during the course of pregnancy God infuses a human soul into the embryo which, until then, has been a simple animal organism, albeit endowed with human finality.  The theory of evolution extends to phylogeny what Aquinas held for ontogeny.

Hence there is no philosophical difficulty against the hypothesis which asserts that the first human soul was infused by God into the body of an animal possessing an organization which was very similar to that of man.  (p. 356)

You get the idea.  It is in light of this tradition that we should understand what Pope John Paul II said in 1996 in a “Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.”  The relevant passages are as follows:

In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points…

Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis.  In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines.  The convergence in the results of these independent studies -- which was neither planned nor sought -- constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory…

[T]he elaboration of a theory such as that of evolution, while obedient to the need for consistency with the observed data, must also involve importing some ideas from the philosophy of nature.

And to tell the truth, rather than speaking about the theory of evolution, it is more accurate to speak of the theories of evolution.  The use of the plural is required here -- in part because of the diversity of explanations regarding the mechanism of evolution, and in part because of the diversity of philosophies involved.  There are materialist and reductionist theories, as well as spiritualist theories.  Here the final judgment is within the competence of philosophy and, beyond that, of theology…

Pius XII underlined the essential point: if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed previously, the spiritual soul is created directly by God…

As a result, the theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man.

End quote.  Some traditionalists and theological liberals alike seem to regard John Paul’s statement here as a novel concession to modernism, but it is nothing of the kind.  The remark that evolution is “more than an hypothesis” certainly expresses more confidence in the theory than Pius had, but both Pius’s and John Paul’s judgments on that particular issue are merely prudential judgments about the weight of the empirical evidence.  At the level of principle there is no difference between them.  Both popes affirm that the human body may have arisen via evolution, both affirm that the human soul did not so arise, and both refuse to accept the metaphysical naturalist’s understanding of evolution.  John Paul II is especially clear on this last point.  As you would expect from a Thomist, he rightly insists that evolutionary explanations are never purely empirical but all presuppose alternative background metaphysical assumptions.  Hence he notes that a fully worked out theory of evolution “must also involve importing some ideas from the philosophy of nature” and that here “the final judgment is within the competence of philosophy and, beyond that, of theology” -- not empirical science per se.  And as Bonnette notes, the Catechism issued under Pope John Paul II essentially reaffirms, in the relevant sections (396-406), the traditional teaching that the human race inherited the stain of original sin from one man.

Neither those conservative Catholics who would in principle rule out any evolutionary aspect to human origins, nor those liberal Catholics who would rule out submitting the claims made by contemporary evolutionary biologists to any philosophical or theological criticism, can find support in the teaching of either of these popes. 

Monogenism or polygenism?

But again, how can the doctrine of original sin be reconciled with what contemporary biology says about human origins?  For the doctrine requires descent from a single original ancestor, whereas contemporary biologists hold that the genetic evidence indicates that modern humans descended from a population of at least several thousand individuals. 

This is an issue I addressed a few years ago in a series of posts (here, here, and here).  Longtime readers will recall that I there rehearsed a proposal developed by Mike Flynn and Kenneth Kemp to the effect that we need to distinguish the notion of a creature which is human in a strict metaphysical sense from that of a creature which is “human” merely in a looser, purely physiological sense.  The latter sort of creature would be more or less just like us in its bodily attributes but would lack our intellectual powers, which are incorporeal.  In short, it would lack a human soul.  Hence, though genetically it would appear human, it would not be a rational animal and thus not be human in the strict metaphysical sense.  Now, this physiologically “human” but non-rational sort of creature is essentially what Pius XII, John Paul II, and the philosophers and theologians quoted above have in mind when they speak of a scenario in which the human body arises via evolutionary processes.

The Flynn-Kemp proposal is this.  Suppose evolutionary processes gave rise to a population of several thousand creatures of this non-rational but genetically and physiologically “human” sort.  Suppose further that God infused rational souls into two of these creatures, thereby giving them our distinctive intellectual and volitional powers and making them truly human.  Call this pair “Adam” and “Eve.”  Adam and Eve have descendents, and God infuses into each of them rational souls of their own, so that they too are human in the strict metaphysical sense.  Suppose that some of these descendents interbreed with creatures of the non-rational but genetically and physiologically “human” sort.  The offspring that result would also have rational souls since they have Adam and Eve as ancestors (even if they also have non-rational creatures as ancestors).  This interbreeding carries on for some time, but eventually the population of non-rational but genetically and physiologically “human” creatures dies out, leaving only those creatures who are human in the strict metaphysical sense. 

On this scenario, the modern human population has the genes it does because it is descended from this group of several thousand individuals, initially only two of whom had rational or human souls.  But only those later individuals who had this pair among their ancestors (even if they also had as ancestors members of the original group which did not have human souls) have descendents living today.  In that sense, every modern human is both descended from an original population of several thousand and from an original pair.  There is no contradiction, because the claim that modern humans are descended from an original pair does not entail that they received all their genes from that pair alone

Of course, this is speculative.  No one is claiming to know that this is actually what happened, or that Catholic teaching requires this specific scenario.  The point is just that it shows, in a way consistent with what Catholic orthodoxy and Thomistic philosophy allow vis-à-vis evolution, that the genetic evidence is not in fact in conflict with the doctrine of original sin.  Naturally other Catholics and Thomists might reasonably disagree with it.

Having said that, I have yet to see any plausible objections to the Flynn-Kemp scenario.  This brings us back to Prof. Bonnette’s article.  In response to the Flynn-Kemp proposal, he writes:

The difficulty with any interbreeding solution (save, perhaps, in rare instances) is that it would place at the human race’s very beginning a severe impediment to its healthy growth and development.  Natural law requires that marriage and procreation take place solely between a man and a woman, so that children are given proper role models for adult life.  So too, even if the union between a true human and a subhuman primate were not merely transitory, but lasting, the defective parenting and role model of a parent who is not a true human being would introduce serious disorder in the proper functioning of the family and education of children.  Hence, widespread interbreeding is not an acceptable solution to the problem of genetic diversity.

Moreover, given the marked reduction in the number of ancient HLA-DRB1 alleles found by the later genetic studies of Bergström and von Salomé, it may turn out that no interbreeding is needed at all, or at most, that very rare instances of it may have occurred.  Such rare events might not even entail the consent of true human beings, since they could result from an attack by a subhuman male upon a non-consenting human female.

I put to one side Prof. Bonnette’s remarks about the genetic evidence, which I’ll leave to the biologists to evaluate.  Bonnette allows that some interbreeding may have occurred, but he claims that it cannot have been “widespread” and that the reason has to do with natural law.  But what is the problem, exactly?

Back in 2011, when Flynn, Kemp, and I first wrote on this topic and the Flynn-Kemp proposal was getting a lot of attention in the blogosphere, some people objected that interbreeding of the sort in question amounted to bestiality.  But of course, no one is suggesting that we should approve of the interbreeding in question.  The claim is merely that in fact it may have happened, even if this was contrary to natural and divine law (just as Cain killed Abel even though this was contrary to the natural law, and just as Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, even though this was contrary to divine law). 

Nor would it be a good objection to suggest that no one would plausibly have been tempted to engage in such interbreeding.  After all, the scenario in question would hardly be comparable to that of the average member of contemporary civilization being tempted to have sex with an ape, which would of course not be psychologically plausible.  For one thing, the sub-rational but genetically and physiologically “human” creatures in question would not be like apes, or indeed like any of the non-human animals with which we are familiar.  They would more or less look like us.  Furthermore, they would even act like us to some degree.  As I noted in a recent post, though a purely material system could never in principle exhibit true rationality, it might simulate it to a significant extent (just as if you add enough sides to a polygon you will get something that looks like a circle even though it could not really be a circle).  The sub-rational creatures in question would have been sphexish, but a sufficiently complex sphexish creature might seem not to be on a superficial examination.  Recall Popper’s distinction between four functions of language: expressive, signaling, descriptive, and argumentative.  The sub-rational creatures in question would not be capable of the latter two functions (which presuppose rationality) but they might have exhibited very sophisticated versions of the first two functions.

Meanwhile, the earliest true humans would not have had anything like the modern civilizational accompaniments of sexual activity, especially given the effects of original sin.  Obviously it would be absurd to think of their liaisons as involving smooth techniques of romantic seduction, contemporary standards of personal hygiene, etc.  So, the cultural “distance” between primitive true human beings and the sub-rational creatures in question need not have been so great as to make the sexual temptation psychologically implausible.  It might have been comparable to a very uncultured and unsophisticated person taking sexual advantage of an even more unsophisticated and indeed very stupid person.  Not that it was exactly like that, since even a stupid person is still intelligent in the strict sense, whereas the sub-rational creatures in question wouldn’t even rise to the level of stupidity.  The point is that the situation could have been psychologically close enough to that for the temptation to be real.  (As I indicated, partly in jest, in one of the earlier posts, we might think on the model of Charlton Heston’s character “Taylor” being attracted to the Linda Harrison character “Nova” in Planet of the Apes -- not that the early sub-rational creatures would have looked quite that good!)

It doesn’t seem that the “bestiality” issue per se is really the heart of Prof. Bonnette’s objection, though.  His point seems instead to be that a “union” of a true human being with a sub-rational creature of the sort in question would be dysfunctional vis-à-vis the proper rearing of truly human children.  This is true, but it is hard to see how it is a problem for the Flynn-Kemp scenario, for nothing in that scenario requires that such “unions” be anywhere close to optimal from a child-rearing point of view, or even that there be “unions” (of some long-term sort) in the first place.  All that it requires is that there was enough interbreeding to account for the genetic evidence appealed to by contemporary biologists.  It isn’t clear how the question of whether, how, and to what extent the sub-rational creatures were involved in child-rearing affects the judgment that there was sufficient interbreeding. 

Perhaps Bonnette thinks that child-rearing would have been so deficient that the population of true humans could not have survived long enough to displace the sub-rational creatures.  But it is hard to see why.  Surely the child of a “union” between a true human being and one of the sub-rational creatures would have an advantage over the offspring of two sub-rational creatures, for such a child would itself have rationality and at least one rational parent, whereas the other sort of offspring would have neither.  Moreover, we needn’t think in terms of such pairings in the first place.  Why not think instead of a scenario where a truly human male forms a union with a truly human female but also has several sub-rational but genetically and physiologically “human” females as concubines, where the resulting children are all essentially reared by the human couple?  And such arrangements need only have occurred frequently enough for the truly human population to supplant the population of sub-rational creatures.  There is no need to flesh out the Flynn-Kemp scenario in the specific way Bonnette (apparently) does.

So, it seems to me that neither Prof. Bonnette nor anyone else has raised any serious difficulty for the Flynn-Kemp proposal.  However, Prof. Bonnette is right to hold that many Catholics need to show greater caution when commenting on matters pertaining to evolution.

367 comments:


  1. Hi Vincent,

    First, I want to make clear that I am NOT the Dennis who posted two or so posts above this one!

    Earlier I indirectly addressed the problem you raise here about your second alternative, where some physical property distinguishes the bodies of true man from his subhuman associates in the same biological population:

    “Essentially, we grant that Adam and Eve appear somehow amidst a virtually biologically identical population of hominins. I do not say absolutely identical, but “virtually” so, since the fact that they and that population belong to diverse natural species requires that they possess essentially distinct substantial forms. Since matter is determined by form, not vice versa, there must be some material, and hence biological, difference between the two diverse species – whether scientifically detectable or not.” ……………………………………………………
    “This difficulty can be addressed by recalling that form actuates and determines the disposition of the matter. Thus, in principle, one can argue that the superior substantial form, that of the true human being, would so dominate the procreative process as to determine what would be the most proximate potency of the matter. This, in turn, could determine which form is properly apt to actuate the matter of that which comes to be in procreation. Given the assumed genetic virtual identity of members of the same biological population, then, the true human’s substantial form would determine that the procreative process might result in successful reproduction of true human offspring. All this assumes, of course, that God infuses the human spiritual soul into the embryo thus produced – as He must do in every human conception.”

    I think we have to be cautious about making this all about the matter, as if when you get the “right matter,” God infuses the human soul. He does. But we must recall that you never can get the “right matter” unless and until the human soul is simultaneously present, since it is the soul that determines the specific nature of the matter. Nature is not determined by DNA, but DNA is determined by nature. Were that not true, then tissue removed from a human being would actually be a human being, since its DNA is still “human.”

    It is the human substantial form that determines the matter (material organization) of the human body to be specifically human. The only way Adam and Eve could arise in a subhuman population would be by God infusing the spiritual soul into matter which is penultimately disposed to being actuated by that soul. But the ultimate disposition never occurs until the soul is actually present, combining with the matter to make the composite substance, the first true human being.

    That is why it is the form, not the matter, which finally makes an organism genuinely human, and why, we ought not be looking to “genetic changes” or “mutations” to “accidentally” make God create new human beings by sheer evolution – as “beings with human bodies arising independently of Adam and Eve.” There is no need to overcome “astronomical odds” to dispose the matter to the actual presence of the human soul, since, once we have true human (Adam and Eve), it is their substantial form that determines the disposition of their human matter to the philosophical natural species of true man.

    Since God was the Author of the initial transformation of matter into true man when He made Adam, it is not a matter of “chance” that matter becomes informed by the human substantial form in Adam’s descendants, but the dominance of the human spiritual form in the procreative acts which give rise to new true human beings. That is why solely the descendants of Adam and Eve are true human beings and no other subhuman members of even a biologically identical population can become true humans.

    Divine providence, not Darwinian chance, determines the origin of the human species.

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  2. "First, I want to make clear that I am NOT the Dennis who posted two or so posts above this one!"

    Professor Bonnette, believe you me, I think that is self-evident to most people, I certainly don't dare to claim possession over the expertise you have in this field! Big admirer of your work!

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  3. Hello Vincent,

    I am sorry to hear you say that and it's certainly not a pledge I would hold you to. Despite our often vigorous disagreements, you are certainly welcome to comment here.

    Anyway, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you.

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  4. I will add, Vincent, that while I obviously think many of your comments about my work have been misguided, your comments and writings are always unfailingly thoughtful, learned, and serious, and generate interesting and worthwhile debate. I think the other regulars here would agree.

    So, I hope you will not be absent from the combox for long.

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  5. Edward Feser said,

    "I will add, Vincent, that while I obviously think many of your comments about my work have been misguided, your comments and writings are always unfailingly thoughtful, learned, and serious, and generate interesting and worthwhile debate. I think the other regulars here would agree."

    Which is exactly why I mourn your loss, Vincent. Even though I might not agree with you, I've learnt a lot from you and I thank you for that.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Tyrrell:

    You wrote to me the following: "God performed some material alteration on two pre-human individuals, but this alteration didn't need to be at the genetic level. God could have altered the brain directly, for example. [...] The process doesn't need to leave any detectable 'genetic bottleneck' or have any implications for what kind of genetic diversity we would now observe,..."

    But this is too easy. What's obviously driving such a scenario is that Darwin blew up special creation, so we need an undetectable special creation of the soul to save a literal Adam and Eve. We need a singular mutation--a soul mutation--to demarcate a new species boundary undetectable to geneticists. An evolutionary lineage (such as from bacteria to us) only knows a continuum and almost never bottlenecks at two, but a literal Adam and Eve needs a discontinuous moment that demarcates the two as a new species in possession of powers that evolution could not have evolved in them naturally.

    But no geneticist says, "With this single mutation, I now declare a new species boundary." There are numerous mutations from all across a population before one says, "This is different enough to declare a new species." There's no single couple so wildly different from their parents, because of a singular mutation, that a new species is declared straight off from that one event.

    So the soul mutation thesis merely mimics in a cartoonish way what is actually far more complicated and murkier when scientists actually decide on a species boundary.

    Lots of spreading around of mutations accounts for the diversity in any existing population. Even if each mutation starts with only one individual, the species itself is the product of a pool of mutations deriving from many individuals, not just one (or an Adam and Eve couple).

    No bottleneck of two, no Adam and Eve. So what the soul-bestiality thesis posits is a soul bottleneck of two. It's the ultimate mutation, demarcating, all by itself, a new species. And it spreads without scientific detection.

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  7. Tyrrell:

    I'm also highly dubious of the idea that our highest reasoning faculties constitute a leap that couldn't have been reached by evolution along a continuum. Darwin's "The Descent of Man" is useful for thinking about this. When theorizing evolution, thinking in terms of continuums is key.

    Example: in the syllogism--"Socrates is a man, all men are mortal, therefore Socrates is mortal"--lurks metaphorical thinking (noticing similarities and differences; moving from something particular to something general, etc.). Even your dog knows it's you coming up the walk even though you might be wearing quite different clothes each day. "From so simple a beginning..."

    So this is another reason to think that there was no Adam and Eve carrying a single miraculous soul mutation. There are ways for evolution to get from simpler forms of associative reasoning to things like syllogisms. Sociality and sexual display, for example, should not be underestimated as drivers of the evolution of description and argumentation.

    Therefore, the soul-bestiality hypothesis is just another way of getting a clear and definite species boundary where evolution tells us there really are no such things in relation to lineages.

    Ultimately, the whole exercise to save Adam and Eve is an attempt to separate humans from animals, but the pull of evolution keeps bringing that rocket down to earth.

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  8. Step2,

    Your link says this:

    UNIVERSAL KNOWLEDGE

    This view understands "good and bad" as a merism, expressing totality by two extremes (cf. II Sam. 14:17 and 22, where David is said in one verse to resemble an angel [cf. Gen. 3:22] in "understanding [lit. "hearing"] good and bad" and in the other to be as "wise as an angel… in knowing all that is on the earth"; cf. also "good and bad," meaning "anything at all," Gen. 24:50; 31:24, 29; II Sam. 13:22). Against this interpretation it is pointed out that man did not, in fact, gain universal knowledge.


    Man didn't gain universal knowledge.

    Well that puts the kibosh on that theory.

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  9. @Vincent

    I think we got at you more because you seem to just attack everything Edward says. I think one person amusing put it along the lines (in relation to how you are on the attack) "That's a nice argument you've got there, it would be a shame if someone were to break it."

    I have said something (or hope I have) before that ID lacks because of metaphysical reasons and because it relies too much on a purely mechanical view of biology and probabilities. It can be 'rescued'. It would be a different thing of course if it embraced Thomistic Metaphysics. I think the key to some kind of synthesis is teleology. So there is the olive branch extended.

    What your resolution could be is to listen, shorten your posts and cut the intensity of polemic but not your thoughts or contributions.

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  10. Irish Thomist,

    I think we got at you more because you seem to just attack everything Edward says. I think one person amusing put it along the lines (in relation to how you are on the attack) "That's a nice argument you've got there, it would be a shame if someone were to break it."

    Given Vincent Torley's contributions are thoughtful, what's wrong with that? I think it's perfectly fine for people to take the opposite position for dialectical reasons, and beneficial for all involved. Often the most insightful criticisms come from people actually on the same side.

    As long as he's okay with being punched in the mouth from time to time. I would hate to see Thomism go soft.

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  11. Hello,

    allow me to address this link http://www.genesibiblica.eu/ing.html where it is possible to read another way to match, at a certain degree, some evolutionary ideas with Catholic monogenesis thesis.

    It could sound awkward (at the very least) but the idea that original sin at its core was the interbreeding with ancestors (which is not your thesis, of course, but Fr. Bortoluzzi’s one) was shared by De Maistre and many others old faschioned catholics.

    Forgive my poor English and happy new year

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  12. >But this is too easy. What's obviously driving such a scenario is that Darwin blew up special creation, so we need an undetectable special creation of the soul to save a literal Adam and Eve.

    That fundamentalist weirdo Santi Tafarella is still drunk on his knee-jerk Positivism which Feser dismantled many many moons ago and A G Flew himself at the height of his Atheism said was hopelessly incoherent.

    Is it me or are all Atheist followers of Richard Dawkins mentality and intellectually inferior?

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  13. Please, everyone, stop engaging with Santi. It took so long to get him to scurry back under his bridge last time!

    Also, Darwin blew up nothing. Evolution was in the air before Darwin came along. After non-naturalistic, vertical causation was ruled in the development of life on earth, then something like evolution, a purely naturalistic and horizontal account (which is, indeed, its only stable definition) was bound to take it place.

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  14. I find myself in the odd position of defending the biological and philosophical possibility of interbreeding between true humans and subhuman hominins in the same biological population --- while, at the same time, arguing that it is possible that no interbreeding was necessary at all in order to account for present day genetic diversity, based on the fact that present genetic studies are not definitive and may be subject to future revision.

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  15. Prof Bonnette it's not odd at all. It just means the Church's view of Adam and Eve is covered either way.

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  16. I'm late to the party, but wonderful post and discussion. I've got two questions which I'm hoping somebody can help me out with.

    1. What does it mean to say a human soul is "directly" created by God? More specifically, how is this different from other instances of substantial change? In a chemical reaction (say, oxygen and hydrogen fusing to form water) isn't the form of water also "directly" created by God as well?

    2. Isn't the idea that God "infuses" a rational soul into something formerly non-human a bit problematic? If I understand correctly, God can't "infuse" a rational soul into a dog, because a dog lacks the necessary material equipment for cognition (put another way, the matter isn't disposed to receive that kind of a form). There must be some kind of material difference between a rational human and a non-human hominid, even if we don't know exactly what it is, correct?

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  17. VinceS,

    2. Isn't the idea that God "infuses" a rational soul into something formerly non-human a bit problematic? If I understand correctly, God can't "infuse" a rational soul into a dog, because a dog lacks the necessary material equipment for cognition (put another way, the matter isn't disposed to receive that kind of a form). There must be some kind of material difference between a rational human and a non-human hominid, even if we don't know exactly what it is, correct?

    The fact that God did not infuse souls into the biologically human creatures does not mean he could not have, only that he didn't.

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  18. To explain further, possibly, God could have actualized the potency for all biologically human creatures to have souls, but chose to actualize the potency for only some human creatures to have souls.

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  19. @Vince S:

    "There must be some kind of material difference between a rational human and a non-human hominid, even if we don't know exactly what it is, correct?"

    Actually, no. The difference is that a rational human has a rational soul (form) and therefore an intellect, whereas the non-human hominid has only a sensitive soul (form). The operation of the intellect requires material organs, but the converse doesn't hold: the mere possession of those material organs doesn't guarantee the presence of intellect, any more than (to make a very rough analogy designed only to get the point across) the existence of a television set guarantees that there will be any programs showing on it.

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  20. @John West:

    "To explain further, possibly, God could have actualized the potency for all biologically human creatures to have souls, but chose to actualize the potency for only some human creatures to have souls."

    I think I understand what you're getting at here but this strikes me as a misleading way of putting it.

    First, all biologically human creatures do have souls; it's just that they have rational souls if and only if they're metaphysically human as well.

    Second, I don't think it's right to say that a biological non-human, say dog, has an "unactualized potency" to have a rational soul. Sure, I suppose God could infuse a rational soul into a dog (although that would be a pretty mean thing to do if the dog's organs didn't provide any way for that intellect to be exercised!). But that doesn't seem to be a potency of the dog.

    (And of course in metaphysical terms such a "dog" would surely be no longer a dog but a human. In the preceding paragraph I'm using the word dog in a strictly biological sense.)

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  21. @Vince S:

    "In a chemical reaction (say, oxygen and hydrogen fusing to form water) isn't the form of water also 'directly' created by God as well?"

    That's a good question and I think the answer is ultimately that we don't quite know for sure. But there are at least two crucial differences between this case and the creation of a human:

    (1) I think that it is in fact the case that water is a new substance in which hydrogen and oxygen exist only virtually and which has its own substantial form. But as has come up recently on another thread, I don't think we have any guarantees about this sort of thing when we're dealing with strictly inanimate nature. It seems that we could just as easily speak instead of properties that hydrogen and oxygen themselves have but that require the two to combine in a certain way in order for them to be manifested.

    (2) More importantly, even granting (which, again, I do think is the case) that water has its own substantial form, it's still the substantial form of a strictly (in the A-T sense) material substance; so is the substantial form of a dog. The substantial form of a human being (the human soul, which includes a strictly immaterial intellect) is not, which is why it's impossible for a strictly material process to give rise to it.

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  22. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  23. Scott,

    Second, I don't think it's right to say that a biological non-human, say dog, has an "unactualized potency" to have a rational soul. Sure, I suppose God could infuse a rational soul into a dog (although that would be a pretty mean thing to do if the dog's organs didn't provide any way for that intellect to be exercised!). But that doesn't seem to be a potency of the dog.

    Right. I agree with his statement about dogs lacking the potency to have rational souls. I didn't disagree with that part.

    First, all biologically human creatures do have souls; it's just that they have rational souls if and only if they're metaphysically human as well.

    You're right. My "soul" needed qualification, especially given the popularity of Cartesian views. Thank you.

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  24. John and Scott:

    Thanks for your replies. I don't think it is correct to say a non-rational hominid could have an "unactualized potency" to have a rational soul. Actualization of a potency constitutes an accidental change, whereas infusion of a rational soul constitutes a substantial change - there is a different form, right?

    If God would infuse a rational soul into a dog, it seems to me somehow the material would have to also change so as to render the (biological) dog capable of cognition. I think this was the point Dennis Bonnette was making earlier on; I forget the exact terminology he used. Conversely, it also seems like a violation of A-T teleology to have the equipment necessary for rational cognition and yet not have a rational soul. Surely there is more equipment necessary for this then for mere animal sensation and perception? It would be akin to having a heart pumping and pumping to no purpose if we didn't need a circulatory system.

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  25. @John West:

    "…especially given the popularity of Cartesian views."

    You know, that possible confusion hadn't even occurred to me, but of course you're absolutely right. Good point.

    Vince S:

    "[I]nfusion of a rational soul constitutes a substantial change - there is a different form, right?"

    Right.

    "If God would infuse a rational soul into a dog, it seems to me somehow the material would have to also change so as to render the (biological) dog capable of cognition."

    That's true as you've stated it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for God to infuse a rational soul into the body of a dog without changing its organs. It's just that if he did so, the resulting metaphysically-human dog wouldn't be capable of manifesting its intellect.

    The infusion of a rational soul doesn't in and of itself guarantee the presence of the material organs needed for its manifestation, as we know all too well from tragic cases of birth defects in humans.

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  26. @Vince S:

    "Conversely, it also seems like a violation of A-T teleology to have the equipment necessary for rational cognition and yet not have a rational soul."

    Perhaps. However, according to current theories of evolution by natural selection, it's also entirely possible, indeed common, for an organ to evolve for one function and turn out to be useful for another. I'm certainly open to the possibility that the "equipment necessary for rational cognition" might have other biological/cognitive functions as well. In fact if A-T is right, the operation of our intellect is forever relying on "phantasms" and therefore, presumably, on the (subrational) cognitive organs that support them.

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  27. A confusion I seem to have fallen into myself here.

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  28. Scott:

    "(2) More importantly, even granting (which, again, I do think is the case) that water has its own substantial form, it's still the substantial form of a strictly (in the A-T sense) material substance; so is the substantial form of a dog. The substantial form of a human being (the human soul, which includes a strictly immaterial intellect) is not, which is why it's impossible for a strictly material process to give rise to it."

    I assume that what you mean is there is no secondary cause of a human soul whereas there is (or possibly is) for other non-rational forms.

    First, is human procreation really a "strictly material" process? Or is the claim only that the first human soul must be directly created by God, just like the first animal soul or first vegetative soul?

    Second, is some form of panpsychism a possible alternative scenario?

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  29. Dennis:

    You wrote: "I find myself in the odd position of defending the biological and philosophical possibility of interbreeding between true humans and subhuman hominins in the same biological population..."

    We might be close to agreeing here, but let’s see. Imagine an island off the coast of a continent. Two birds from the continent–a male and a female–get swept up by a storm and find themselves stranded on this island. They go on to mate and a new species of bird evolves. They’re the Adam and Eve of that particular species on this particular island.

    But wait. What if six birds are swept over to the island, and they begin interbreeding? Over time, mutations swap in all sorts of directions between the descendants of those six, and those mutations add up to a new species specially adapted to that island.

    Which couple is the Adam and Eve of the new species now? Answer: there was no Adam and Eve for that species. There was a population that got isolated down to six–that bottlenecked at six–and those six combined their genetic inheritance to generate and swap genes to make the new species, and the variety of genetic diversity it possesses today.

    Population geneticists would know that there were six individual birds from which the species branched, not two, based on the amount of genetic diversity displayed by the contemporary members of the group. They would know this for the same reason that population geneticists know today that the contemporary diversity of humans indicates that our species has never bottlenecked at a figure of less than 1250, and that the Khoisan tribe in Africa possesses the most divergent genetic profile of any group of people on the planet.

    But what if those birds evolved a civilization and had a religious text that told them that their species started with a couple, and they read it literally? Then you could posit that of those six original birds, two of them were given one mutation–a spiritual mutation–in which God put an eternal soul into them. This is not something traceable by genetics, but it would be reasonable to assume that if the soul mutation was advantageous, then it would likely spread to all the descendants of the six birds over time (by interbreeding).

    The birds could even posit (if they wanted to), that their Adam and Eve soul mutation started on the continent, and spread among many birds before it ever came to the island, and that all six original inhabitants of the island had souls (because their moms and dads had souls back on the continent).

    In other words, there’s a way around the genetics. If you’re prepared to treat a soul change as a species change that confers benefits to the possessors, you're home free.

    And when it comes to miracles, you can do anything you want. You can put the eternal soul mutation anywhere along the continuum of our evolutionary lineage. All bets can be off. Population geneticists can’t prove the birds’ religious story is wrong, but the birds can never know whether or not they’re deluding themselves.

    But imagine if the birds had experts in literature and the study of bird culture, the overwhelming majority of whom saying, “The Adam and Eve bird story in the Old Book is an etiological narrative. It doesn't need to be read literally.”

    Now things get complicated again. Would it be wise of the birds to go against BOTH the geneticists AND the cultural and literary academics of their species? Or would it be best for them to say, Let’s read our Adam and Eve bird story as a good campfire tale, and leave it at that?

    Which conclusion is in accord with empiricism and Occam’s razor? Can the birds’ religious orthodoxy, like the birds themselves, evolve to accommodate the deliverances of their reality testing or not?

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  30. @Vince S:

    "First, is human procreation really a 'strictly material' process? Or is the claim only that the first human soul must be directly created by God, just like the first animal soul or first vegetative soul?"

    The former. The A-T claim is that each human being involves a special act of creation.

    "Second, is some form of panpsychism a possible alternative scenario?"

    I'm sympathetic to panpsychism but I don't think it provides a genuine alternative in this case. Bare panpsychism faces the "combination problem," and it seems to me that we still need forms (or their functional equivalents) in order to account for higher-level unitary substances. And at the level of the rational soul, we still have something that can't be entirely cashed out in "material" terms even if the "material" terms themselves are ultimately cashed out in terms of mind or experience; intellect doesn't reduce to those either.

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  31. "The A-T claim is that each human being involves a special act of creation."

    OK then it still isn't clear to me why a rational soul can't have a secondary efficient cause, but another type of form can.

    "The infusion of a rational soul doesn't in and of itself guarantee the presence of the material organs needed for its manifestation... I'm sympathetic to panpsychism but I don't think it provides a genuine alternative in this case."

    What about a form of panpsychism where all forms are in fact rational souls, but these are not manifest due to the absence of the necessary material organs? Can this be refuted by straight-up A-Tism?

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  32. @Vince S:

    "OK then it still isn't clear to me why a rational soul can't have a secondary efficient cause, but another type of form can."

    All I've said so far is that a rational soul can't have a material secondary efficient cause (a cause can't impart what it doesn't have), and that seems to answer the question on the assumption that human procreation is strictly a physical/material process. But if there's an implied question here as to whether human procreation is purely material (i.e. whether rational souls can be secondary efficient causes of other such souls through causal processes that aren't strictly material, and if so, whether that happens in human procreation), then I think I'd prefer to hear what others have to say about that.

    "What about a form of panpsychism where all forms are in fact rational souls, but these are not manifest due to the absence of the necessary material organs? Can this be refuted by straight-up A-Tism?"

    I don't think this version of panpsychism does any work in that proposal. An electron (say) doesn't seem to be the sort of thing that has an intellect, but even supposing that it does and yet has no way to manifest it, we'd still need a higher-level substantial form (or something equivalent) to account for a dog as a unitary entity rather than just a vast congeries of teeny-weeny unmanifested rational souls. In that respect, panpsychism doesn't seem to alter the problem one whit.

    Now, whether A-T can refute that sort of panpsychism is another question; I'm saying only that such panpsychism isn't a true alternative to A-T (on this subject). But for that very reason A-T doesn't need to "refute" it; it's sufficient to say that until and unless we observe electrons manifesting intellect, we have no positive reason to attribute rational souls to them.

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  33. (Likewise, we have no reason to attribute a rational soul to the dog. But my point is that even if we do, the proposal that all forms are really "rational souls" doesn't seem to add anything that makes it a genuine alternative to A-T.

    I also have a hard time seeing how, say, the form of a triangle could be a "rational soul," but that's not the question I'm addressing here.)

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  34. @malcolm
    Man didn't gain universal knowledge. Well that puts the kibosh on that theory.

    It only blocks a literal interpretation which is inconsistent with the many imaginative theories being proposed to fulfill an orthodox view of human ensoulment while ignoring the text concerning the special creation of the human body as well as the problem of God creating humans in his own image who are completely ignorant of morality. Second, my theory was not that humans gained universal knowledge or alternatively knowledge of universals, but rather the process of gaining knowledge generally involves a type of leaving the nest, the primary example of which occurs when we are born. Third, the Genesis story has several significant perspectives and layers of meaning, including a meta-layer where the special trees in the story are symbols of the layers and branches of interpretation. To limit the narrative to a single literalistic meaning is a reading error.

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  35. BTW Santi has a blog I cam e across by chance.

    http://santitafarella.wordpress.com/

    So a lot of the debating here is then talked about elsewhere.

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  36. Yes, I posted a link to it pretty early on in his trolling and warned everyone that he was trying to generate blog fodder. At the height of his activities here, he was mostly just cross-posting.

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  37. Spin it as "trolling," but my view is that if you actually talk to people with biases very different from your own, they'll point out things you aren't inclined to notice, or that you might be marginalizing without good warrant (and vice versa). It's why I read Feser, and why I contribute periodically to some of these threads.

    I feel, for example, that my bird-island analogy above is a good one, and clarifies some of the issues.

    And the idea proposed by some here that Adam and Eve lived at a date significantly earlier than Y-chromosome Adam and mitochondrial Eve surprised me, and helped me see why population genetics can't touch someone determined to believe in a literal Adam and Eve.

    But I'm still bewildered by the almost universal rejection here of the following (sensible) argument: if population geneticists are telling us that the evidence for human polygenesis is overwhelming, and that monogenesis is vanishingly unlikely even in theory (it's not the way evolutionary lineages tend to work--they don't bottleneck at two very often); and if experts in archaeology, anthropology, and literature are telling us that the stories in Genesis 1-11 are etiological narratives unfit for literal interpretation, then it follows that monogenesis should be abandoned. It's not the best explanation for how humans came to be. Not even close.

    The theology should be adjusted to fit the reality testing, not the other way around. Otherwise, if you just cling to what's logically possible, but highly improbable, you're living in Fantasyland.

    Feser's solution (accept bodily polygenesis; embrace soul monogenesis) comes at a high cost. It effectively walls off literal Adam and Eve belief from reality testing; it blows off Occam's razor; it generates all sort of problems surrounding the souled having sex with the unsouled; and it raises problems of theodicy.

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  38. There is no point in talking to people who can neither listen nor argue, and who say nothing of interest or merit.

    If these experts are reducing Scriptures and myths to the narrowly etiological, as if they were just some sort of proto-science, then they don't deserve the paper their degrees or books are printed on. One couldn't imagine Joseph Campbell or Mircea Eliade engaging in such sophistry.

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  39. @Santi Tafarella

    I can be quite fair and balanced and I will tell you from that angle, you speak without listening far too much.

    A lot of this has been addressed quite well. I also think it was in this thread I gave the warning about tying ones philosophy down to whatever the current scientific hypothesis currently happens to be. I coined a word for the sake of memorising this point - zeitgeiscience. Science by its nature either gets nearer or further from the truth but it doesn't remain static.

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  40. @ Santi

    You suggest that we should “talk to people with biases very different from your own….”

    What makes you think that everyone must be operating from “biases?” That term implicitly presumes an epistemological relativism. Did it ever occur to you that someone might possess objective truth based upon evidence that you have never seen or grasped?

    And why would setting the time of Adam’s appearance back to the early Middle Pleistocene period make you suddenly see “why population genetics can't touch someone determined to believe in a literal Adam and Eve?” If you understand the genetic problem posed by Francisco Ayala (the one on which most of the claims are made), you would see that he claims that no bottleneck of a single mating pair of hominins has been possible for the last six million years or more. Hence, moving Adam back in time 750,000 years or so, in itself, in no way solves the “genetic problem.”

    The rational and scientific solution to the “genetic problem” lies in directly addressing the studies upon which the problem is based. I do this in the easily-available online articles in Crisis magazine and the Homiletic and Pastoral Review to which I referred you earlier in this thread – as well as other articles by me posted in full on my web site at drbonnette.com.

    Answer the specifics of these papers (and my book on human origin), rather than keep repeating that “population geneticists are telling us that the evidence for human polygenesis is overwhelming….” We all already know that claim. It is just like we all know the repeated claim that the “consensus of scientists know that global warming is taking place.” Truth is not a mere matter of counting noses – and the noses of scientists have sometimes found the wind shifting direction.

    To be continued below....

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  41. @Santi

    Continued from above……

    You say “that monogenesis is vanishingly unlikely even in theory (it's not the way evolutionary lineages tend to work--they don't bottleneck at two very often.”

    But isn’t the whole point of theological monogenism --- that God chose to create a founding population of just a single mating pair of two first true human beings with spiritual souls? So, the fact that this doesn’t happen “very often” is quite irrelevant, since this must be understood as a singular event in the history of divine creation.

    Again, you tell us that “experts in archaeology, anthropology, and literature are telling us that the stories in Genesis 1-11 are etiological narratives unfit for literal interpretation….” Do you honestly believe that these “experts” are in no way influenced by their own philosophical and theological presuppositions and assumptions when they render their speculative verdict about the literary nature of Genesis? Did you ever ask a “sexpert” whether he believed in natural law ethics? Most people accept the conclusions of “experts” without checking their foundational presuppositions. Could you be victim to that same mistake? (Incidentally, I answer the claims of some paleoanthropologists against the instant appearance of the first true humans in my book, Origin of the Human Species – in extensive detail.) Besides, the Catholic Church allows the figurative reading of parts of Genesis – but not those elements that are foundational to Catholic belief, including a literal Adam and Eve.

    The question then comes back to how to explain present-day genetic diversity. There are two possible ways to do this consistent with Catholic doctrine: (1) the genetic claims against monogenism are not definitive (Read my articles please!) and entail a vast overreach of the scientific method, and/or (2) some form of either rare or more common interbreeding occurred. Recall that the burden of proof now lies with the skeptic, not the believer – since the believer has both philosophical and apologetic evidence upon which to base his rational belief in both Catholicism and its foundational presupposition of Adam and Eve as the sole mating first members of the philosophical natural human species.

    From the perspective of Catholic philosophy and theology which define the context of Dr. Feser’s blog, what you engage in here is blatantly Modernist use of very recent, and quite contingent, scientific speculations facilely accepted, so as to overturn the traditional and firm Catholic doctrine of a literal Adam and Eve -- replacing it arbitrarily with a mythical fairy tale better suited to your literary tastes.

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  42. @Dennis Bonnette:

    With all respect, you are wasting your time and possibly that of others; if you continue to try to engage this unengageable person, yet another thread on this blog will become uninhabitable.

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  43. @ Scott,

    Your point is well taken. My articles and books are there for him to read, if he wishes.

    Others on this thread have made the same point. It is time that I took your advice.

    I know that there are a lot of serious and competent Catholic commenters on this thread -- and I appreciate their good work.

    Thank you.

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  44. @Dennis Bonnette
    I have told Santi to listen first so we can have a more coherent discussion. If he's reading this I have to admit you do at times look like you are troll precisely because you are writing quite a bit without first taking in properly what people have explained. The old 'aim and fire' mentality of commenting on the internet.

    I have now added a link from your webpage Dennis on my blog. I am curious if you would be up for a short interview on this are of debate some time?

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  45. Hi Irish Thomist,

    Use the "contact us" on my web page to reach me and I will get back to you via email. Thanks.

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  46. Irish Thomist,

    "The old 'aim and fire' mentality of commenting on the internet."

    This is certainly a vice that I have suffered from, and, despite fighting it, continue to do so more than I would like, but, indeed, far too many seem to prefer pontificating, rather than learning and listening.

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  47. Perhaps, Santi was sent as a caricature of this vice to warn us.

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  48. Dennis Bonnette,

    "Besides, the Catholic Church allows the figurative reading of parts of Genesis – but not those elements that are foundational to Catholic belief, including a literal Adam and Eve."

    What criteria do you use to decide which parts of Genesis are okay to read figuratively and which are not? If you say your criteria is simply based on its alignment to foundational Catholic belief then this looks to be a chicken-egg problem. How would you convince an outside observer that the issue is in fact objectively resolvable and not fundamentally relativistic?

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  49. @Jeremy Taylor

    "Perhaps, Santi was sent as a caricature of this vice to warn us."

    I think a lot of it is about garnering material for his blog.

    I am more eager for him to continue mingling if he eventually gets the message to cut down on the talking and take up listening more.

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  50. This is a subject I have studied, so I might contribute to the discussion, which I will do in two or three comments.

    First of all, at least for Catholics, there is one very politically incorrect consideration: Eve just doesn't count. All that maters is patrilineal descent from biblical Adam. Proof:

    - St Paul's treatment of the subject in Romans 5:12-19, which speaks only of "Adam", "one man" and "one trespass", and does not even mention Eve.

    - St Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica II-I, Question 81, Article 5 (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2081.htm): "original sin is transmitted to the children, not by the mother, but by the father."

    - Ecumenical Council of Trent, Session V, Decree concerning original sin, canons 1-4 (http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct05.html), which speaks only of "Adam" and "one man", and does not even mention Eve.

    - Pius XII's 1950 Encyclical "Humani Generis", 37:

    "When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own."

    You see, no mention of Eve anywhere, and Aquinas even rationalizes it.

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  51. Then we have to define the relationship between Biblical Adam (B-Adam) and Y-chromosomal Adam (Y-Adam). As seen in my previous comment, Catholic doctrine requires that all men living today descend patrilineally from B-Adam. But it is well known that all men living today descend patrilineally from Y-Adam (that's precisely Y-Adam definition). Therefore, Y-Adam must be B-Adam or a patrilineal descendant thereof, or in other words, B-Adam must be Y-Adam or a patrilineal ancestor thereof.

    (To note, this condition is satisfied in a literal reading of Genesis, where Y-Adam = B-Noah. And no, I will not push that line.)

    Now, if we want to accommodate real contemporary science into the discussion, we should be aware that the dating of Y-Adam changed radically 2 years ago. Previously, the consensus Y-chr. TMRCA was 142 kya (Cruciani et al 2011). In March 2013, a new Y-chr. haplogroup A00 was found that pushed TMRCA to 338 kya according to the finders (Mendez et al 2013).

    Now, this extremely ancient date for Y-Adam has been contested by two later studies, both pointing to a probable TMRCA = 208 kya:

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1304.6098

    http://nsmn1.uh.edu/dgraur/ArticlesPDFs/ejhg2013303a.pdf

    A discussion between some of the authors of the study and the second contesters ensued, ending with this piece:

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1410.3972

    The importance of this issue is that Y-Adam more ancient than mt-Eve is not consistent with well-known human genocidal policies, whereby the males of defeated groups are killed and the females taken for mating. Thus, the case for widespread mating of ensouled males with non-ensouled females was easier before 2013, when Y-Adam was thought to be more recent than mt-Eve, as in that case mt-Eve would be the matrilineal MRCA of both B-Eve and all the non-ensouled females taken as sex-slaves by ensouled men.

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  52. The point is that the dating of Y-Adam and mt-Eve depends on the assumed mutation rates for Y-chromosomal DNA and mitochondrial DNA, and those mutation rates are being discussed as I write. With that in mind, according to current data:

    a. There is a small probability that Y-Adam and mt-Eve were contemporary.

    b. It is more probable that Y-Adam preceded mt-Eve.

    c. It is extremely improbable that mt-Eve preceded Y-Adam.

    Assuming Y-Adam = B-Adam, case c involves ensouled men mating non-ensouled women (actually taking them as sex-slaves, not wives, with their ensouled real wives being probably OK with that, as there was no romance between their husbands and the "dummies", who on the other hand did all the cleaning!) This possibility would be consistent:

    - with traditional war policy (kill all males, take the females),

    - with the reasonable assumption that ensouled men overpowered non-ensouled men, and

    - with Catholic doctrine that all people are patrilineal descendants from B-Adam.

    However, this case is for now discarded by current scientific knowledge. Thus, we are left with cases a and b. Case a is the simplest to accommodate, with just B-Eve = mt-Eve. In case b, mt-Eve is a matrilineal descendant of B-Eve, which is not impossible. In both cases, genetic diversity must be explained by a case of miraculous divine intervention. Oddly, that case was proposed by a secular contributor in Professor Coyne's blog in 2011. It is described as "CCF2" in this article on the subject:

    http://defeyrazon.blogspot.com/2011/09/creation-of-man-concordance-between.html

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  53. @Johannes:

    "Therefore, Y-Adam must be B-Adam or a patrilineal descendant thereof[.]"

    How does that follow?

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  54. "[C]ase c involves ensouled men mating non-ensouled women[.]"

    Why would that be the case? Or do you mean only that the women in question didn't have rational souls?

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  55. "Therefore, Y-Adam must be B-Adam or a patrilineal descendant thereof[.]"

    How does that follow?

    Assume that Y-Adam is neither B-Adam nor a patrilineal descendant thereof. Then, Y-Adam is either a patrilineal ancestor of B-Adam or patrilineally unrelated. Because either A is in the same patrilineal line as B, or he is not.

    If Y-Adam is a patrilineal ancestor of B-Adam, then SOME living human beings are NOT patrilineal descendants of B-Adam.

    If Y-Adam is patrilineally unrelated to B-Adam, then NO living human being is a patrilineal descendant from B-Adam.

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  56. "do you mean only that the women in question didn't have rational souls?"

    Whenever I say "soul", I mean "rational soul" = "spiritual soul".

    Any patrilineal descendant from B-Adam is infused by God with a rational soul.

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  57. I've realized that my attempt to save combox space here looks a lot like shameless peddling of my blog. So I will copy the relevant text below, to spare readers the need to branch there. Thus, I resume my comment on January 2, 2015 at 2:25 PM at:

    Thus, we are left with cases a and b. Case a is the simplest to accommodate, with just B-Eve = mt-Eve. In case b, mt-Eve is a matrilineal descendant of B-Eve, which is not impossible. In both cases, genetic diversity must be explained by miraculous divine intervention. The explanation was originally proposed by user Drew in Professor Coyne's blog on a comment dated June 2, 2011 at 9:07 am:

    http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/adam-and-eve-the-ultimate-standoff-between-science-and-faith-and-a-contest/#comment-107005

    and subsequently selected by Professor Coyne in this post:

    http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/winners-adam-and-eve-contest/

    as the best way to reconcile Genesis narrative and genetic data regarding overall theological and biological plausibility. It is:

    "Roughly 140,000 years ago God slightly tinkered with the genes of two existing hominin pairs to ensure that the next baby they each had would have brains which were capable of interacting with a soul. These two individuals, one male and one female were Adam and Eve. God then imparted them both with many germ line cells each carrying a different genome, this allowed that each of Adam and Eve’s children would not be genetic siblings so that there would be no loss of fitness due to sibling interbreeding. Each distinct gene set was based roughly on the genomes of various human-like beings that had preceded Adam and Eve, which had evolved through natural processes, but was distinct enough that it allowed for the brains of the offspring also to interact with a soul. One consequence of this modification was that it gave the F1 generation enough genetic diversity to appear as though they sprang up from a large pool of existing ancestors. It may also have been necessary that for a few generations following F1 that the individuals continued to have the variable germ cells to further protect the offspring from inbreeding defects."

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  58. @ Don Jindra

    You raise a good question. The answer is that I do not attempt personally to determine the foundational Catholic beliefs that must be held. They were determined by the 1909 Pontifical Biblical Commission and its later rulings a long as it was a part of the official magisterium.

    I used these findings as criteria for what natural science must affirm regarding Adam and Eve. See pp. 145 ff. of my book, Origin of the Human Species: Third Edition (2014). These criteria include, inter alia, “…the creation of all things which was accomplished by God at the beginning of time, the special creation of man, the formation of the first woman from man, the unity of the human race… and so forth.

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  59. I hate to throw cold water on this entire discussion of mtDNA lineages, but in my judgment they are quite irrelevant to the real Adam and Eve.

    I treat this topic on pp. 177-180 of the third edition of my book, Origin of the Human Species. Two objections arise:

    (1) “The ‘common female ancestor’ this analysis pointed to may be simply a woman living some indeterminate time after the true Eve whose only real claim to fame is that she happened to be lucky enoguht not to have her mtDNA extinguished in human history.” (p. 179.) Though I do not address it directly, doubtless, the same criticism applies to the recent findings on the patrilineal lineage.

    (2) Far more serious is the objection that the entire mtDNA time line is far too recent to have contained Adam himself. Most mtDNA estimates range in the last couple hundred thousand years. But, since Adam was the first true human being -- a being with an intellectual/spiritual soul – it is clear that he could not have appeared any later in the paleoanthropological time line than that at which the first evidence of genuinely intellective activity appears. As I point out in my same book mentioned above, genuinely intellective behavior is manifest in the creation of congruent, three-dimensionally symmetrical Acheulean stone hand axes. (pp. 163-164.) The most recent evidence suggests that such hand axes, as well as possibly controlled use of fire, manifest somewhere around the early Middle Pleistocene period, some three-quarters of a million years ago or even more. (Preface to the Third Edition: Origin of the Human Species, p. xiv.)

    Thus, the entire discussion about mtDNA is quite irrelevant to determining the time of Adam’s special creation by God.

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  60. Dennis Bonnette,

    I used these findings [of the 1909 Pontifical Biblical Commission] as criteria for what natural science must affirm regarding Adam and Eve.

    Surely you know modern science isn't supposed to affirm the opinions of man. But more to the point, you informed Santi that objective truth is not "a mere matter of counting noses." So why do you make the implicit claim that objective truth can be found by counting noses in a 1909 Pontifical Biblical Commission?

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  61. @ Don Jindra

    Your question is not so much about the Biblical Commission but about why one should accept the teachings of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church – since the PBC was an official part of the Magisterium in 1909 and for some time thereafter.

    The simple answer is that I accept those teachings because I am a Catholic.

    This is not a thread about Catholic apologetics, as I understand it, but a thread about attempting to understand the truth about the origin of man in light of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

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  62. Don Jindra is a troll as bad as Santi (which is quite a feat). He is also banned from this blog for trolling. I would advise not discussing anything with him.

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  63. Here I am jumping into the middle of a fascinating discussion about two popular characters known as the lovely Mitochondrial Eve and the handsome Y-Chromosomal Adam who, over centuries, sent passionate love letters to each other.

    While I did scan previous comments, I may have missed some due to my older than dirt eyes. So, please excuse me if I repeat a clarification about the delightful picture at the top of Dr. Feser’s very interesting blog. This clarification is that the picture illustrates a theory, which is no longer a scientific tenet in the contemporary Science of Human Evolution. Species classification now uses cladograms based on genetic relationships. Thus, there is a genetic relationship between humans and apes, but it is not father and son. As far as I can tell, we are genetically closer to friendly, very smart chimpanzees. The “cladistics diagram” graphically shows that we are cousins to chimpanzees because both we and they descended from a large mixed common ancestor that eventually diverged into two lineages. This is known as the Homo/Pan Split … and not the Adam and Eve union.

    In Humani Generis, 37, quoted by Dr. Feser, Pius XII refers to polygenism. Today, we would refer to “population” which is the necessary requirement for polygenism and for the evolution model as currently applied to the human species. In brief, it is the “population” hypothesis which directly challenges the Catholic doctrine on human origin. Each point on the cladogram is a large population in the thousands. The last point on the hominin line is us in an originating large population.

    Getting back to the genetic Eve and Adam, we can discuss them in numerous ways. What the Catholic Church directly opposes is that both are members of a large population. This means that our most recent “scientific” common ancestor is “responsible” for producing a population which leads to additional populations which leads to the only extant hominin population which is ourselves. There is no point on the cladogram which has a beginning human population of two.

    What worries me about the missing human population of two is that it leads to doubts about the 2011 proposal of interbreeding. Regardless of which hominin population is the source of interbreeding between Adam’s descendants and irrational subhumans, we are still dealing with a large indiscriminate, very active breeding population with no moral norms. It seems to me that initially Adam’s descendants would be overpowered by a highly sentient, survival of the fittest population of thousands. Personally, I do not think that is the meaning of Genesis 1: 28.


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  64. @Santi Tafarella:

    As I mentioned, my worldview is essentially that of Daniel Dennett. So I agree with you at the end of the day about the plausibility of this Adam-and-Eve scenario that we're talking about.

    Indeed, I agree with everything in the last two comments that you addressed to me except for your comments about the continuity of species. I mean, I agree that "species", as biologists use the term, are as continuous as you say, but I don't agree that this is relevant to the present discussion.

    The "species" used by biologists aren't relevant because we're talking about metaphysical species, and not biological species. The notion of metaphysical species used by A-T philosophers is similar to, but different from, the various species notions used by biologists. Under the A-T usage of the term, there is nothing remarkable about parents of one species having offspring of a different species. This wouldn't contradict the continuity of biological species that Darwinism teaches.

    Of course, whether you buy into the whole A-T memeplex underlying the notion of a metaphysical species is another thing. I personally don't, but I have made an effort to understand it on its own terms, and this I've done for two reasons:

    (1) The A-T framework is an intrinsically beautiful philosophical edifice. It is far more sophisticated than I originally thought, though it was laughably naive of me not to expect this, given the thousands of years of memetic selection to which it has been subjected. The A-T worldview has great beauty (there is a beautiful subtlety and coherence to the way that it handles various philosophical puzzles) and great robustness (it handles the common criticisms leveled against it with far more grace and effectiveness than I expected). All of this makes it attractive on aesthetic grounds alone, even if you don't consider it to be a plausible candidate for truth. I get a pleasure out of it like what I get out of good fantasy or science fiction.

    (2) My best guess is that, if my Dennettian/LessWrongian worldview is radically wrong, then, among the alternatives that I know, something like A-T is most likely to be right. Understanding A-T is my way of hedging my bets.

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  65. @Dennis Bonnette:

    I echo Jeremy Taylor's comment with regard to Don Jindra. Ed requested several years ago that he stop posting here and that others stop replying to him.

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  66. @ Tyrell McAllister,

    It is likely beyond the scope of this thread to decide the question itself, but the difference between the A-T metaphysics and that of scientific materialists lies in this:

    If you hold that things really exist as substantial unities above the "atomic" level (whatever view one has of the atomic and subatomic world), then substantial forms are needed to explain that unity. Substantial unity means that all the parts of something share that same nature, e.g., all that is truly part of a man shares human nature. On the other viewpoint, there is no substantial human nature: things are merely names we give to associations of trillions of atomic or subatomic units to which we give a single designation.

    We have to ask ourselves whether we really believe in cabbages and kings or not.

    Or to put it another way, if Daniel Daniel Dennett is correct, then while the philosophy of atomism or scientific materialism may exist, atomists and scientific materialists do not.

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  67. @grannymh

    By the sound of it you missed the entire debate so let me clear up that very few people that know much at all about evolution think we evolved from 'apes'. To me that is so obvious you foul of Poe's law. Edward Feser likes using comic book snippets and that one was connected - maybe not scientifically accurate (like flying men from Krypton) but related.

    Another matter is both the OP and this entire back and forth discussion have addressed your reference to a 'population' at great length.

    Have a nice day.

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  68. Dennis Bonnette,

    "The simple answer is that I accept those teachings because I am a Catholic."

    Fair enough. But a materialist is not likely to find that challenging or even interesting. Your "simple answer" centers truth in the opinions of men, not in nature. Those opinions might be called the Magisterium of the Catholic Church or simply metaphysics. But whatever they're called, they're subjective biases, not objective truths.

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  69. @All

    Tyrrell McAllister...

    memetic selection

    Please someone tell me that is a bad joke, do people (Atheists of all people - yes I know who came up with the notion) really believe in memetics??

    Do I need to point out the irony?

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  70. Does a certain materialist not wonder whether materialist positions are also not objective truths?

    Also not everything is a 'bias'. If it were then there is no way to obtain truth. A relativistic mindset that is in excuse to act whatever way one pleases.

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  71. @Irish Thomist:

    I'm not here to convince, just to learn.

    So, in that spirit, why is it especially ironic for an atheist to believe in memetic selection?

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  72. @ Scott,

    I shall take the advice of Jeremy Taylor, yourself, and other regular commenters regarding Don Jindra and Santi Tarafella and others who are acting like what people call “trolls,” since this is Dr. Feser’s blog and I respect his wishes.

    The topic of “knowing an ape from Adam” is presented in the context of a serious and respectful discussion of how to reconcile scientific claims about human origins with the doctrinal teachings of the Catholic Magisterium regarding a literal Adam and Eve.

    This is not the proper forum in which to challenge the rational and revealed foundations of the Catholic Faith. No one here is afraid or unable to defend the one, true Church founded by the Son of God, Jesus Christ, Himself – nor, for that matter, the existence of God or Aristotelean-Thomistic philosophy.

    But such subjects are not the topic of discussion in this forum.

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  73. @ Irish Thomist


    Thank you for your comment.

    A brief clarification about my January 3, 2015 comment. I was explaining the cladistics or cladogram population approach found in the Science of Human Evolution as a possible new issue which could have merit in the interbreeding discussion.

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  74. Irish Thomist,

    "Does a certain materialist not wonder whether materialist positions are also not objective truths?"

    Of course. There may be no way to obtain objective truth. My position is this: Claims of absolute certainty about what is true are probably wrong, and demands for that level of certainty are irrational. This position devolves into relativism only if I assume there is no truth and therefore all positions are in equal error. I definitely do not believe this. I'm confident some knowledge is much more true than untrue.

    To some of the others,

    Regarding my supposed "trolling." For at least the last year I've kept my posts short, infrequent and mild. They've pertained to narrow issues. Only someone looking to be offended could find offense in them. For a group of people who mostly claim to be guided by a religion of forgiveness, who, morever, confess universal sin, are grudges really that permanent?

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  75. One of the some of the othersJanuary 5, 2015 at 10:12 AM

    Only someone looking to be offended could find offense in them.

    On the contrary, people with a healthy respect for rational argumentation notice the consistent lack thereof, and only people without said healthy respect fail to notice said lack in their comments, despite said lack having been pointed out considerably more than seventy time seven times.

    For a group of people who mostly claim to be guided by a religion of forgiveness, who, morever, confess universal sin, are grudges really that permanent?

    Non-sequitur. Not to mention case in point. You were banned for your intractable unwillingness to even feign attempts at formulating rational arguments.

    Glenn

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  76. @Tyrrell McAllister

    Please do not take offense at my comment. It is more a sense of bewilderment.

    1)Memes are immaterial like Platonic numbers (even if they reside in minds in some sense).

    2)What if I were to say Atheism (the affirmation "there is no God) is just a meme? [not that I am and it's not atheism I am arguing against here but the concept of a meme]

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  77. @ grannymh

    Sorry about my 'tone', I thought you were engaging in the same kind of behavior as others on this thread.

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  78. @Don Jindra

    My friend do you not see that is relativism or a way of avoiding objective truth at the very least?

    Of course. There may be no way to obtain objective truth. My position is this: Claims of absolute certainty about what is true are probably wrong, and demands for that level of certainty are irrational. This position devolves into relativism only if I assume there is no truth and therefore all positions are in equal error. I definitely do not believe this. I'm confident some knowledge is much more true than untrue.

    How can you know something is wrong without first knowing what is true, even probably. I also don't think a demand for some kind of clarity is a valid criterion for saying something is likely not true.

    This seems more like a fog to surround ones self with to avoid the truth, whatever that turns out to be. Even to say something is untrue one needs some basis, some epistemic truth from which to contrast it.

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  79. This thread has been exhausting, but I must say I am more astonished that Dr Bonnette keeps repeating two claims that keep getting ignored (for the most part). I'm not formally trained in Philosophy, but I have spent many years in apologetics and it's as if Dr Bonnette is getting the Protestant treatment.

    His two arguments, as I understand them, are as follows, and they are decisive if they are true.

    (1) Can two different Species breed and produce a new (or even identical Species)? For example, can a plant and animal mate and have either a new plant, a new animal, or the same plant/animal be the child? If not, then the fundamental premise of the Kemp model where Human Species mates with Animal Species to produce Human Species has *ZERO* scientific (or philosophical) basis at all. To assume such is possible is to beg the question, just as Protestants "assume Sola Scriptura is true until proven otherwise".

    (2) The second of Dr Bonnette's claims is that this evolution debate, from the Catholic *philosophical* perspective, has *NOTHING* to do with Mutations, DNA, or anything like that. In fact, his point seems to be that anyone who gives a response in the form of Mutations or DNA has completely missed the elephant in the room. What he is saying is that Essence/Form has a 'primacy' over Matter. Form is the master, while Matter is the slave. It doesn't matter if Matter mutates or whatever, since Essence/Form remains unaffected.

    And that's where I'm truly in need of a straight, honest answer: WHERE DOES ESSENCE/FORM COME FROM? Nobody can tell me. If man cannot create/modify Essence, then the Evolution debate seems completely moot. Theistic Evolution would become an oxymoron.

    Those who ignore Dr Bonnette's two points (the first of which is * purely scientific*, the second of which is *purely philosophical*), are really missing the 'essence' of this Debate, making this discussion more convoluted than it should me, and that makes me sad. To me, that's the Elephant in the Room. Maybe what I'm seeing is nothing, or maybe it's everything.

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  80. "A world class grudge is carefully nurtured and watered and fed, and, like exhibition livestock, shown off at every available opportunity. Around here a grudge can be passed down from generation to generation as a family heirloom, long after the initial reasons for conflict, as well as the combatants, have gently decomposed back into the soil. There is some world class grudge holding in these parts. I’ve got two mortal enemies myself." - Helen Chappell

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  81. @Irish Thomist: Please do not take offense at my comment. It is more a sense of bewilderment.

    No offense taken. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

    1)Memes are immaterial like Platonic numbers (even if they reside in minds in some sense).

    Most actual materialists are called "materialist" because they consider matter to be "fundamental" in some sense, but few of them think that matter is literally all that exists. For example, Daniel Dennett defends the assertion that beliefs exist (and not just as a particular portion of the brain, say) in his paper "Real Patterns". Even the eliminativist Alex Rosenberg talks about "information" in a way that makes it clear that "information" is not made out of matter. In his paper "Eliminativism without Tears", he writes,

    "[T]he brain acquires, stores, uses and transmits information. In fact it stores a vast quantity of it. Eliminativism accepts that there is a great deal of information transmitted, stored and employed in nature. This is the sort of information that has been under discussion in philosophy at least since Dretske (1981). Second, it assumes that much of the information the human brain acquires and transmits comes to it and leaves it via speech—noises coming out of people’s mouths, signs made by their bodies (usually their hands) and writing--marks, inscriptions, print, and more recently pixels."

    Thus, for him, information is a real thing, but it's not made of matter. Even if your brain uses matter to get information into my brain, still, this transmission doesn't consist of putting a piece of new matter in my brain. Thus, the information being transmitted must not be made of matter.

    Again, what makes these views materialist is that matter is fundamental. But "fundamental" does not mean "all that exists". For example, a materialist could maintain that, once you have matter, you get a bunch of nonmaterial things in your ontology "for free", such as all the ways in which this matter can be subdivided into pieces, the numbers that count these pieces, the geometric shapes delineating the pieces, and so on. You will still be thought of as a materialist, so long as you insist that all these nonmaterial things exist just in virtue of there being some matter there.

    The materialist might be wrong in thinking that one can "reduce" the existence of nonmaterial things (such as information or memes) to material things in this way. Nonetheless, such a materialist does not make the mistake of denying that nonmaterial things exist at all. These materialists don't disagree with you about whether nonmaterial things exist. They just disagree with you about how they exist.

    2)What if I were to say Atheism (the affirmation "there is no God) is just a meme? [not that I am and it's not atheism I am arguing against here but the concept of a meme]

    Yes, atheism is a meme. But you still choose whether or not to become a host for that meme. And you can make this choice based on whether you think that what the meme says is actually true, using your own capacity for reason.

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  82. Don Jindra,

    It is not what you say that people here object to, it is how you say it. It is that you rely on rank sophistry and attempts to score cheap points whilst completely avoiding profitable discussion.

    I myself have my flaws in knowledge and argumentation, but you, like Santi, seem almost irredeemably beyond worthwhile discussion. If you did change your ways, even if you stayed a committed materialist, I'm sure you'd be welcome here. There would be few grudges.

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  83. If there is a Big Bang, there is a pre-Big Bang Eternity of a Loving God Statimuum (words fail ever since Adam and Eve)in which our minds fail except to "see" all-in-all Transcendence "strings" we sense as matter, identity,truth,oneness,good, and beauty. Our contemporary words fail the metaphorical also. Science, the obstreperous offshoot of the Church, can be used, but original sin (proven by Godel's Theorems)still messes us up...many people, including scientists, just do not want to believe the pre-Big Bang was not replaced by the Big Bang. Regardless, in the Pre-Big Bang Eternity anything can happen as confirmed by miracles and just plain sacramental living. That Adam and Eve are realities simply derived from God's LOVE such that believable messages could offer live some understanding consistent with trying to give this stubborn creature freedom and love also "required" from a perfect God. Check out on the WWWeb: "Theogeocalculus". Some of us have a more serious and less common problem: Evolution and Natural Selection...which have been mindlessly expanded without genuine scientific criticism. I believed in evolution all my life until the atheists began to claim there was no pre-Big Bang...and suddenly you look at evolution and find many problems basically denied and ignored even when directly posed. "I will get back to you" is all I hear. Much could be sent, but just struggle with the pheromone prevention of cross species major gene transfers. Then there is the fact that hybrids resulting from forced cross species breeding by humans and you find that hybrids cannot reproduce adequated for "evolution" explosions. The get the inadequate mutation rate and reproduction intervals for the human gene 1.5 billion DNA base pairs perfectly aligned from when only bacteria were allegedly on earth 1.5 billion years ago. There are many more cogent scientific (not "creative") objections to evolution. It is embarrassing that except for evolution, major science changes occur about every 5 years...I think the black hole just took a hit. The problem is the lack of any alternative for Darwin's dogma. A psychological "proof" of not believing in evolution and natural selection is readily available by the enthusiastic belief in contraception and abortion. For many, Adam and Eve is no problem and fit easily with the pre-Big Bang potentials. Dr. Bonnette's efforts for Adam and Eve are consistent with what our imaginations can conjure up--"imagination" was one of Darwim's admitted "techniques" as I remember reading him.

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  84. I'll agree with what Jeremy said.

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  85. @ Tyrrell McAllister

    I'll not say I agree because I don't but at least it was a thoughtful reply.

    There is a degree of equivocation going on in the use of the word 'immaterial' as you relayed it - I thought I should point that out.
    I am not sure being both a materialist and claiming something is 'immaterial' in any sense is entirely consistent since at some level everything ends up being reducible to matter in the end, including consciousness - which is an absurdity for me.

    I also think that being a 'host' to a 'meme' makes the entire notion of rationality and thought come across as deterministic out of ones control or at least a disease. If we then 'choose' to 'fight it off' we must ask what exactly is doing the fighting?

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  86. @Nick

    Nobody can tell me

    If you want a simple answer well then God unites an act of existing to an essence. He is the cause in some way, just as he is the cause of why things are as they are - their form. This is not to say that things do not really exist, or act according to their potencies but rather that he sustains things as they are and in existence.

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  87. Thank you, Dr. Feser for revisiting the Flynn-Kemp proposal.

    When I first read Science, Theology, and Monogenesis, I reacted to the downplaying of bestiality. Now I read it in the light of the Science of Human Evolution cladograms which are based on genetic relationships between species. While bestiality is a given since the Fall, Genesis 2: 20 warns that it cannot be the normal way to insure survival of the human species.

    From the scientific position, interbreeding populations are a natural solution to the genetic diversity which exists today. Current research on both Neanderthal and human genomes posits interactions of some sort.

    On the other hand, moral norms have existed since the dawn of human history. (Information source: CCC 396 & 1730-1732) In the article “Time to Abandon the Genesis Story?” Homiletic & Pastoral Review, July 10, 2014, Dr. Dennis Bonnette refers to the morality of bestiality.


    “Unlike some others who advocate an “interbreeding solution,” I maintain that such sexual unions must have been very rare and incidental—assuming any were needed at all. God would certainly have excluded the perverse act of bestiality in any directly intended part of His plan for human origins.[24] True humans might not even be responsible for such perverse acts, since subhuman males might have attacked true human females.”


    As I now re-read various parts of Dr. Kemp’s argument for a 5,000 hominin population in which God selects two to be the “Adam and Eve”, I wonder if a greater problem, polygenism, is accidentally being introduced.

    Today, in the Science of Human Evolution, populations are the necessary element of polygenism. Each point on the cladogram represents the population needed for natural polygenism. Catholic human origin doctrines oppose the final point in the hominin line which is our originating population estimated in the thousands. There is no point on the cladogram which represents a beginning human population of two.

    The following is a section lifted from Dr. Kemp’s argument for a 5,000 hominin population in which God selects two to be the “Adam and Eve”. Page 232


    "These first true human beings also have descendants, which continue,to some extent, to interbreed with the non-intellectual hominids among
    whom they live. If God endows each individual that has even a single human ancestor with an intellect of its own, a reasonable rate of reproductive success and a reasonable selective advantage would easily replace a non-intellectual
    hominid population of 5,000 individuals with a philosophically (and, if the two
    concepts are extensionally equivalent, theologically) human population within three centuries. Throughout this process, all theologically human beings would be descended from a single original human couple (in the sense of having that
    human couple among their ancestors) without there ever having been a population
    bottleneck in the human species."


    In my personal view, this sounds like the scientific position of a population (polygenism forbidden by Humani Generis) which is forming the descendants of Adam and Eve. If that were true, it would be necessary to explore the idea that the first generations of humankind would not necessarily live within any subhuman population. Considering Genesis 1: 26-28; Genesis 2: 15; and Genesis 2: 20, the first humans have a nature capable of surviving independently in accord with CCC 355-356 & 1730-1732.

    In order to maintain the Catholic doctrines of human origin in our culture, we need to take the Science of Human Evolution at face value. While interbreeding is a reasonable solution to the genetic diversity which exists today, we still need to qualify it as being a rare occurrence. Genesis 1: 28 needs to be taken at face value.





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  88. as Anonymous because I could not get the identity url (whatever that is) sign-ins to work, it seems that we do not need to require God to follow man-derived science all the time. He gave us a space-time continuum out of LOVE, and the universe is the entropy necessary for Love (See "Theogeocalculus). For "shared love to return to Love", which Natural Law would require from a genuinely LOVING GOD, the "made in His image" creature would necessarily require a Divine message or two to show the way. Those Divine messages would necessarily be in words understandable for the times. But the FREE creature can willfully and selfishly choose wrong, otherwise there is no freedom (Freedom is necessary for genuine love to return to Love, i.e. What good is so-called "love" without choosing it or if it were thoughtless?). So ancient messages fail. The prophets fail. What an obnoxious creature man is, as linked to inadequate words for the Divine. So send the Son...do the Incarnation...allow a killing and Resurrection---(That should wake every body up!). Duh...original sin still contaminates because to "know good and evil" is to choose evil (willful )entropy--Which includes a demand that the Divine messages be ignored because some times they do not fit our science...I wrote all this in "Happy Ending" many years ago and recently in 2 volume "Everybody For Everybody" and the 1 volume "Soul of the Earth". Paraphrasing Chesterton, those monkeys who believe in evolution should get started with it...The new loving creature was in God's image from the beginning. "A touch of the pre Big Bang Statimuum" for which we still struggle to find words when "Adam and Eve" Divine inspiration is really enough.

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  89. @Anonymous

    I'll be honest I neither understood the topic nor could easily decipher or follow what it was you were trying to say.

    Maybe come at an angle where people don't have to search an on the edge abstract topic and also in lay mans terms form people that might not know what it is that interests you - yet.

    Peace.

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  90. @grannymh

    As I said before I really am not sure what the term bestiality would really mean in this context. Essentially these other primates would be 'human' in almost every outward way for 'Adam and Eve's children' except for rationality and an eternal soul (since that would not be the form that said primates have).

    Unless we used a term subhumality or something else for it or just something that clarifies that what precisely is going on is not breeding between two completely different species.

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  91. @Irish Thomist


    In any context which includes a true human person, bestiality would be sexual relations between the human and a non-human. The principle of non-contradiction would say that a living organism or being cannot be both a human and a non-human at the same time. A non-human could be any living being but a human would be specific. Genesis 1: 20

    Dr. Kemp uses the term “pre-human beings who, if not of a different biological species, were not fully human beings either. [44]” Page 232. Since not fully human pre-human beings cannot be fully human beings at the same time, then it is reasonable to say that bestiality would occur when a true human being has sexual relations with a pre-human being. Dr. Kemp’s view is that the descendants of the first true human beings would “continue, to some extent, to interbreed with the non-intellectual hominids among whom they live.” See entire quote in my January 6, 2015 comment.

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  92. @grannymh

    A. Reread what I said. I did not say they were human, nor was that my point.

    B. I am speaking of bestiality in a moral sense. There might be more genetic variation between an African and an Asian that between Adams children and the pre-human species they breed with. Since bestiality comes down to physical and biological matters primarily and secondarily moral ones as a consequence of the disordered action.

    I simply don't think the word is in any real way appropriate here - that is why I suggest different terms to clarify that these beings are biologically within the realm of natural human copulation.

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  93. Further to my last point we seem to be forgetting that 'Adam and Eve' would have been very much more like lower primates like 'apes' (I know I know we didn't evolve from apes so excuse the analogy) than we are.

    In fact they would have been lower primates with the addition of reason. In some sense they would naturally have been ordered towards breeding with that of their own species population and their children also would have had this natural orddering to breed with their own species and population (whether they all had the addition of reason or not). Hence my difficulty in understanding how exactly this could be lumped together with bestiality (even among humans and other primates which today and would simply be bestiality).

    I'm being very Scotist in my distinctions here so be careful to read and understand what I am saying.

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  94. @Irish Thomist


    Re: comment, January 8, 2015 at 4:50 AM

    Looking at bestiality in a moral sense sounds good to me. Suggestions which clarify situations would be appropriate.


    Re: comment, January 8, 2015 at 4:58 AM

    Me? Forgetting that “Adam and Eve” would be like lower primates?

    This is the first time I have heard this idea. I understand that apes and border collies are highly sentient to the level where it can appear that they are “reasoning.” However, Adam had all the rational qualities that come with his spiritual soul. (Genesis 1: 26-27; CCC 1730-1732)

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  95. @grannymh

    Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve would be indistinguishable from modern man anatomically?

    We are either talking past each other, I am not being clear enough or you are misunderstanding me.

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  96. I've brought this are up in another context

    It's interesting to discuss because I think it's good to develop the details.

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  97. @Irish Thomist: There is a degree of equivocation going on in the use of the word 'immaterial' as you relayed it

    Could you elaborate on this point? What were the two (or more) meanings of the word "immaterial" that you saw in my comment?

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  98. @Irish Thomist Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve would be indistinguishable from modern man anatomically?

    Yes. I believe that we are Adam and Eve's descendants.

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  99. In all the discussion about possible interbreeding, there are two major aspects that are both crucial and generally overlooked: (1) the distinction between biological species and philosophical natural species, and (2) the metaphysical fact that substantial form – not the matter -- determines the ultimate disposition of the primary matter of the composite human being.

    It appears generally assumed that the subhuman hominin population in which Adam and Eve would appear in is the same biological species as they would be – and hence interbreeding would be no problem. Indeed, I have made much the same argument myself. The problem is that Adam and Eve are not in the same philosophical natural species as the rest of that population, which is subhuman. Since the substantial form dictates the ultimate disposition of the matter of the composite organism (that is, determines it to be the matter of true man, not mere animal), the entire being of a human being is simply, well….. “different” than that of any subhuman hominin. Since all examples of interbreeding with which we are familiar, such as that of a lion and tiger, involve organisms in the same natural species, the fact remains that we have no examples whatsoever of interspecific interbreeding between philosophical natural species.

    Hence, arguments taken from examples of biological interbreeding do not tell us whether interspecific mating between subhumans and humans is actually possible at all.

    Moreover, “subhumans” or “prehumans” are simply not humans at all. Every bit of a true human being differs radically from a subhuman, despite seemingly identical morphology and even many behaviors. That is because the essential nature of the human being pervades every part and element of its being and body. The substantial nature of every bit of a true human is human, and the substantial nature of every bit of a subhuman is not human. To say that the human is simply a subhuman with rationality is to miss the point. Yes, man is a rational animal. But the phrase, “rational animal” does not mean that you simply add “rationality” to “animality.”

    “Rational animal” is a unitary nature, radically different from the irrational animal nature in every part and parcel. It is a Cartesian misunderstanding to think you can just add a “rational soul” to an animal and get a human being – as if the animal nature is untouched by the “addition” of rationality. Rather, the pure animal nature is one sort of being, and the rational animal nature is an entirely different sort of being. They share some common aspects, but that does not make their natures the same; nor does it place them in the same natural species; nor does it assure us that they can mate successfully.

    To be continued.....

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  100. Continued from above:

    On the other hand, it is true that not all natures have the same proximate potency to other natures. A live oak tree has a proximate potency to a dead one, whereas, the painting of an oak tree does not have a proximate potency to a living tree. So, then, what is the point of evolution?

    If adaptation or evolution within the same natural species -- over time -- produces a subhuman population that is virtually identical to the material dispositions of true humans, then that subhuman material bears a proximate potency to becoming informed by a true human soul or substantial form, thereby being instantaneously and radically transformed into a true human being. And yet, even if that is true, still, such matter and prior subhuman form still cannot, of itself, account for the coming-to-be of the true human form and substance – since it will take the new and higher substantial form of true man to determine the ultimate disposition of matter to the actually, newly present, human substance.

    Bottom line: the changes wrought by intraspecific evolution can dispose matter to the proximate potency of a true man, but it will still take divine intervention to actually raise that matter to the human natural species level. And since this new natural species is not of the same type as that of the subhuman species from which it arose, there is no absolute guarantee that interbreeding between members of this new human natural species and the old subhuman natural species will actually be possible. And yet, there are grounds to hope that such interbreeding might occur. Indeed, it must occur in order to explain how a literal Adam and Eve are possible if genetic diversity should prove to be too great without it – since we know from theology that our literal first parents did exist. Unfortunately, for reasons I have elaborated elsewhere, such certitude that Adam and Eve are “scientifically impossible” without interbreeding can never be definitive.

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  101. @Dennis Bonnette:

    Bearing in mind that the Kemp-Flynn proposal is just an example of how evolutionary theory might be harmonized with monogenism…

    "The problem is that Adam and Eve are not in the same philosophical natural species as the rest of that population, which is subhuman."

    Absent any proof or evidence that interbreeding is biologically impossible between different metaphysical species, I don't see why this is a problem. Is there some compelling reason to believe that a metaphysically human being couldn't have a body capable of interbreeding with another being of who is the same biological species but who doesn't possess an intellectual/rational soul/form?

    "Since the substantial form dictates the ultimate disposition of the matter of the composite organism (that is, determines it to be the matter of true man, not mere animal), the entire being of a human being is simply, well….. 'different' than that of any subhuman hominin. Since all examples of interbreeding with which we are familiar, such as that of a lion and tiger, involve organisms in the same natural species, the fact remains that we have no examples whatsoever of interspecific interbreeding between philosophical natural species."

    Why would we expect to find any other such examples? How many times in the history of planet Earth do you suppose God created man? Isn't a one-time, unique occurrence just what monogenism and the Genesis account would lead us to expect?

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  102. I am the first anonymous...there seem to be several now??
    As I read all I think of Godel's 2 Theorems: Undeterminable and Incomplete. That is, first, with any system, there are basic truths unproven by the system. And, second, if the basics somehow get proven, new basics will occur which are unproven. When I first studied that, I said: Eureka! Original sin proven by mathematics! Then there is the Principle of Uncertainty best understood that if you know how fast you are going, then you do not know where you are; and if you know where you are, you do not know how fast you are going.
    So how do we all feel living Godel and Uncertainty? Just be assured that original sin can lead to worse including loss of who-you-are and why-you-are (which may be those earlier mentioned two mathematical understandings in different words (Metaphors help especially those from the Church).
    To touch the Statimuum (pre-Big Bang Eternity)is to learn about miracles, Sacraments, and many potentialities bewildering to us and our lack of metaphors to fully grasp our deciding and completeness and our place and speed. Not that we should not seek the strings, but there will always be more...properly used, enabling more JOY with discovery than impositions....
    PS--someone was a Richard Dawkins fan...Unfortunately, Dawkins scientifically discredited himself for fabrications about the eye evolving easily to support his fantasies about evolution...I am not sure he is part of Oxford anymore... He shouldn't be.

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  103. @ Scott

    In the first place, the problem with the biological species concept is that one of its definitions entails the possibility of successful reproduction with other members of the same species. Thus, they are in the same biological species because of successful reproduction, and now, they can successfully reproduce because they are in the same biological species. Do you see anything circular here? As I show in my book, the biological species concept is not very coherent in any case.

    Distinguishing man into biological species and metaphysical species is a false distinction. Man has but a single species determined by human nature. Please note, I am not saying that interbreeding is impossible. I am simply noting that the distinction between natural species is so radical in nature that it penetrates the ultimate disposition of the entire materiality of the substance, raising a legitimate question as to whether reproduction with a lower natural species is actually possible.

    You write: “Is there some compelling reason to believe that a metaphysically human being couldn't have a body capable of interbreeding with another being of who is the same biological species but who doesn't possess an intellectual/rational soul/form?”

    The point is that the biological species concept presumes what it attempts to prove, that is, that reproduction is possible – whereas, the moment you “insert” an intellectual soul you have a distinct natural species, whose matter may or may not be suited to reproduction with the lower species. The real metaphysical challenge is that you have two diverse organisms, whose entire nature – body and soul – is diverse, down to the last element of their being. They may look the same, but if you ask what is the nature of each cell in their bodies, the answer in one case is “human,” and in the other case, is “subhuman.” Does that give you great assurance that interbreeding is possible – when the substantial forms that determine the nature of every infinitesimally least aspect of their being are on entirely distinct ontological levels?

    The point is that we have no proper corollary for this case – and the fact that the substantial forms differ radically in nature at least raises a serious question about how they would “unite” to form an offspring of a “coherent” nature at all? I have myself suggested a solution in terms of the superior form dominating the reproductive act so as to determine the offspring to be fully human. But again, is this a written guarantee?

    I agree this is an unique case. And, as I point out above, should we find that the problem of present day genetic diversity is insoluble, then the interbreeding “solution” becomes mandatory. The problem with that, as I also have pointed out, is that it appears we shall never be certain that the genetics against Adam and Eve are definitive.

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  104. @Dennis Bonnette:

    "[T]he moment you 'insert' an intellectual soul you have a distinct natural species, whose matter may or may not be suited to reproduction with the lower species."

    Sure, "may or may not." Do you have any positive reason to think that it wouldn't?

    "[I]f you ask what is the nature of each cell in their bodies, the answer in one case is 'human,' and in the other case, is 'subhuman.' Does that give you great assurance that interbreeding is possible[?]"

    Yes, if they're otherwise physically similar. Again, what's the problem? It's all very well to wave our hands in the air and say Well, they might not be able to interbreed, but what's the positive reason for thinking they couldn't?

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  105. @Scott:

    The reason that interspecific reproduction might be impossible is that there is no way of knowing, or possibly even of detecting, submicroscopic anti-reproductive material differences, which organisms whose total beings are specified by completely different kinds of substantial forms might entail. The assumption that being in the same biological species makes reproductive ability probable is based on seeing how other instances of biological interbreeding work. But in the case of diverse natural species, we really have no precedent to go on. The impulse to assume it should work results from an extension of what is, in essence, intraspecific reproduction -- to interspecific reproduction – an entirely illogical inference. An argument that such reproduction might well be impossible is the simple fact that the subhumans and true human beings are simply diverse in their very natures – and nature pervades the entire being of an organism. While we see material similarities in morphology, DNA, and so forth, the incredible complexity of any organism at the submicroscopic level precludes any assurance that “all will work the same.” Nothing can be more different between two organisms than that they should be in entirely diverse natural species. Did you ever see an oyster try to mate with an elephant? Or, a carrot with an oyster? There, even the morphologies are radically diverse. But that is an example of the order of magnitude of diversity found between diverse natural species. While the morphology and DNA between subhumans and humans may seem identical, the diversity of the powers of the natures is radical (as in the other examples just given) – so that we may not presume that reproductive impediments do not exist that are undetectable to natural science.

    You must recall that interbreeding is also a “fall back” position that I employ in my own publications. So, I surely do not absolutely rule it out. I am merely pointing out that one cannot simply assume it will work – something about which we are probably in agreement. Since I offer reasons in my articles as to why the science of retrospective calculations about vastly ancient genetic conditions is not definitive, we cannot be sure that the genetic problem itself is actually genuine and prohibitive of a literal Adam and Eve. As long as that is the case, monogenism may be defensible without recourse to interbreeding. And, in that case, it may never have occurred at all. So, to presume that it could easily have occurred, or must have occurred, is an unwarranted leap. Such interbreeding would become necessary were it the case that present day genetic diversity cannot be explained in any other way – since original sin did occur and Adam and Eve are literally real.

    I really think we are coming to a point at which it may be impossible to say which “solution” is the correct one – although logic requires that one or the other or both is correct.

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  106. I would like to cut to the chase.
    Genesis 1: 26-28. Is there a problem with that?

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  107. @grannymh

    I cannot disagree with the Scripture you cite.

    We are all just trying to understand how the claims of modern science must be in harmony with what God reveals to us about our origin.

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  108. @ Dennis Bonnette

    Thank you for your response.

    I now see that I have to have an entirely different way to present the concept of Genesis 1: 26-28. I am not looking for agreement to the Scripture verses. I am asking if there are any problems with Genesis 1: 26-28 being part of the solution for the sought after harmony of science and God’s revelation.

    I am not a “Creationist” nor an advocate of Intelligent Design. I am an independent reader of the first three chapters of Genesis. One of the first things I noticed is a few barely noticeable philosophical and scientific skills of the author which relate to CCC 282 and the cross-reference in the margin, CCC 1730. Obviously, it is important that I take serious time to study your previous comments to look for both objections and affirmations of the path I have chosen.

    My thoughts are not written in stone.

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  109. @Tyrrell McAllister

    I think it was in the broad sense you were using it which wasn't making distinctions between something immaterial but real and that which is 'immaterial' but mind dependent.

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  110. @grannymh

    Are you getting angry with me because I don't hold to creationism or something? I haven't quite understood some of your replies.

    I'm not a creationist or an ID proponent.

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  111. @Dennis Bonnette

    Dennis Bonnette

    Since you have been about here, then here is the link you requested for your interview. I can still email it later if you wish.

    Also I think there has been some misunderstanding; largely due to my loose use of language.

    When I speak of a rational animal in some sense like rationality being united to an animal nature I am not speaking in a Cartesian fashion as if they were separate. I am using language similar to 'an act of existing being united to an essence'. I also am thinking of participation in the hierarchy of being.

    You raise very good points although I (like Scott it seems) don't see the problem and I think I know of an argument that might work (without some first hand empirical observation of Adam, Eve and the subhuman species.).

    What needs to happen first is to make distinctions and to explain precisely where you stand in terms of metaphysical essences and substantial forms. Can you expand on what constitutes a unique essence and so forth according to your position. We can move on from there.

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  112. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  113. @Dennis Bonnette:

    "While the morphology and DNA between subhumans and humans may seem identical, the diversity of the powers of the natures is radical (as in the other examples just given) – so that we may not presume that reproductive impediments do not exist that are undetectable to natural science."

    I don't see why not; that's precisely the presumption I would make. Humans and biologically identical subhumans are, after all, much, much more alike than oysters and elephants. Why would it be any harder for them to interbreed than for a human to interbreed with (say) another human who was severely mentally retarded and thus unable fully to manifest rationality?

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  114. I do agree with this, though: "[M]onogenism may be defensible without recourse to interbreeding. And, in that case, it may never have occurred at all."

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  115. When I say I don't see the problem I also fully imply I understand your well argued and valid objection. I see it as something more relative to the material aspect of the formal cause etc. rather than just the formal cause in it's totality.

    I reworded this and deleted the old comment.

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  116. Where I stand is I think it a little odd where God wanted human persons to 'go forth and multiply' but had to 'sin' to do it.

    I don't at all think that the subhuman breeding poses quite the problem people are at first supposing - even in relation to the substantial difference metaphysically speaking. I think it comes down to the biology.

    Think about this analogy for a second if you will.

    Is eating the Eucharist cannibalism? If not, why not?

    I think the answer to that also shines light on why the subhuman but biologically similar (or the same) and Adam and Eve's children would have no moral or biological problems reproducing.

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  117. I was thinking about Phenotypic Variation and when a species becomes a new species in relation to all this. On my reading 'interbreeding' happens at that midway point between the population of species a and the population of species b. Where a is the precursor to species b.

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  118. @Irish Thomist: I think it was in the broad sense you were using it which wasn't making distinctions between something immaterial but real and that which is 'immaterial' but mind dependent.

    My intended meaning throughout was "immaterial, but real (and not mind dependent)".

    But the "real-ness" is a derivative kind of reality. The immaterial things exist only because some material stuff exists. This is what I was getting at when I wrote, "once you have matter, you get a bunch of nonmaterial things in your ontology 'for free', such as all the ways in which this matter can be subdivided into pieces, the numbers that count these pieces, the geometric shapes delineating the pieces, and so on."

    Maybe this is one way to think about it: A-T, as I understand it, takes every example of "composition" to be something that needs to be "explained". Examples include a thing's matter and its form, or its existence and its essence, or its substance and its accidents.

    Hence, each example of composition leads to a chain of explanations that must terminate in something that does not exhibit the given composition. Thus, there must be something that is not a composition of, say, its existence and its essence, but rather whose existence just is its essence.

    Now, under A-T (as I understand it), whenever you have some matter, that matter must have a certain form. (If you ever had some matter without form, you would just have prime matter, but prime matter never actually exists on its own.) To this extent, the kind of materialism that I described above agrees with A-T.

    Where they part ways is here: The "composition" that holds between a thing's matter and its form is so tight that it doesn't require an explanation terminating in something without this kind of composition. Yes, you need to explain how a particular piece of matter came to be a certain way. And, yes, once that matter came to be that way, various form-like immaterial things also had to exist (such as the numbers counting the pieces in a particular subdivision of the matter). But there is nothing to explain regarding how those form-like things became "united" with that piece of matter. That just happened in virtue of there being some matter that came to be in a certain way.

    In short: To be is to be a certain way. And to have a thing that is a certain way entails having various nonmaterial things (such as ways that things can be). But this entailment is so tight that it doesn't need to be explained.

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  119. @ Irish Thomist

    I can understand why others, like yourself and Scott, cannot see the problem of genuine interspecific breeding between natural species. I am in a difficult position, since I actually may “need” to have such interbreeding in case genetic diversity cannot be explained away genetically. But that is another issue.

    In terms of the ontology of natural species, the problem is that the substantial forms are essentially distinct between diverse natural species. Since form is act and matter is potency, and since act and potency are proportionate to one another, form possesses ontological priority in determining the final organization of the matter that befits the higher species of true human beings (as opposed to that of subhuman hominins). It matters not that natural scientists cannot discern any differences in genes or DNA or even finer determinations of precise material organization which are thereby differentiated by the distinct substantial forms. What matters is that the difference in substantial form entails a real difference in the matter, meaning the entire living organic body of the human being is different from that of the subhuman hominin population at issue here.

    So, merely assuming there is no difference in the biological population is not a well grounded assumption, since we know that, if the natural species is diverse, then so must be the biological reality in some manner. (I do not say biological species here, since this difference between natural species reveals yet another instance in which the biological species concept fails to adequately grasp the actual ontology at hand.)

    In other words, merely saying that “the biological species is the same, so why should there be a problem with interbreeding?”, misses the point. The point is that the biological species in this case is a bogus concept, since the real species, the natural species, are really different and this makes some real difference even in the biology itself – thus rendering the grounds for optimism for interbreeding suspect.

    That is to say, if interbreeding does occur, it does so, not because of a “common biological species,” but precisely because the common biological species that is not truly “common” between the subhumans and the humans is not sufficiently “uncommon” so as to prevent some form of successful reproduction.

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  120. @ Scott,

    Please see my response to The Irish Thomist as to precisely why difference in natural species can make a difference to interbreeding’s possibility.

    You refer to “humans and biologically identical subhumans” as being much more alike than oysters and elephants. That is why I stated that more than mere morphology is at issue between subhumans and humans – as I explained above to The Irish Thomist. The problem is that they are NOT “biologically identical,” since the substantial form necessitates SOME difference in the ultimate disposition of the matter, meaning biological NON-identity.

    Your reference to a “human who was severely mentally retarded and thus unable fully to manifest rationality” does not apply. One must distinguish between the possession of an essential property and its exercise. Lack of exercise does not prove lack of the property. If you are a human being, you possess all the operative potencies proper to your species, whether your biology allows you to exercise those powers fully or not. The mentally retarded are just as fully human as anyone else, since their possession of the full reality of the human substantial form is in no way diminished by their retardation. One is either fully human or not human at all. There are no degrees of being human. But being human makes a difference in the material organization of the entire human organism, body as well as soul – as shown above in my reply to The Irish Thomist.

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  121. @Dennis Bonnette:

    "The mentally retarded are just as fully human as anyone else, since their possession of the full reality of the human substantial form is in no way diminished by their retardation."

    Of course, and that's exactly why I chose that as my example. My point is precisely that being human is independent of "whether your biology allows you to exercise those powers fully or not," and therefore that there doesn't appear to be any obvious reason why a human whose biology doesn't permit the full manifestation of rationality differs from a subhuman in some way that is crucial to the ability to interbreed. You've given no more reason that they can't be "biologically identical" than that a sentient basketball wouldn't be spherical.

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  122. @ Irish Thomist,

    I have already responded to you regarding why natural species interbreeding involves a problem regarding the biology, since the “biology” is not as perfectly in common as is facilely presumed. See above.

    I am not a theologian, and thus cannot comment on the precise nature of the Eucharist. But from this example you offer you infer that “Adam and Eve's children would have no moral or biological problems reproducing.”

    Prescinding from the issue of reproduction (which we have already discussed at length), it is clear that there IS a moral problem with interbreeding, since it is objectively an instance of the mortal sin of bestiality.

    I realize that great efforts have been made to minimize this difficult truth, but one must, in ethics, distinguish between the subjective and the objective orders of morality. Subjectively, many have made the case that it is the “same biological population” or that “no real differences would be thought of or noticed” by the primitive peoples involved.

    All that is well and good, and may even be true. Thus, in the subjective order there may have been no sin, since sin requires a deliberate choice of known moral evil. But we do not classify moral acts by the subjective, but rather by the objective, nature of the act. Objectively murder is always wrong, although sometimes people innocently commit murder because they misjudge the character of the act, e.g., thinking they are simply defending themselves or acting with lawful authority, when such is not the case.

    Here, too, I do not judge the subjective order of the early men involved in these acts. Still, objectively, sexual relations between a true human being and a mere animal is, by definition, the mortal sin of bestiality – a grotesquely disordered moral act.

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  123. @ Scott,

    I am glad your point was intended and well made. I had hoped no one was suggesting that a mentally retarded person was less than fully human!

    Still, while the same substantial form does not vary in degree in virtue of being received in diverse matter (based on some material deformation, for instance, as you cite), the reverse does not follow, that is, that having diverse substantial forms could not so differentiate the material disposition of the reproductive faculties and biochemistry that mating with an inferior natural species could prove impossible.

    While both an oyster and an elephant possess reproductive faculties, clearly these reproductive mechanisms do not work together sexually. Hence, given the difference in submicroscopic material organization between morphologically almost identical subhuman hominins and the early true men, it remains entirely possible that the radical difference in substantial forms could still involve a difference that would make successful mating impossible.

    While “reproductive ability” is a common power of all living things, it is expressed in analogically diverse ways both in diverse biological and natural species. That is to say, while two organisms both possess the power to reproduce, that does not mean that they necessarily can reproduce with each other. While the subhumans and the true humans may appear “biologically” or morphologically identical to us (and even to each other!), this does not guarantee that their submicroscopic material organization is amenable to reproductive success. Recall, that many human beings can fully engage in sexual intercourse, but remain forever sterile as to outcome – sometimes for reasons we cannot even discern medically.

    Again, recall that my own defense of monogenism entails interbreeding as a possible alternative solution. Still, that does not gainsay the observation that we have no certain evidence that it is even possible, especially given the fact that the substantial forms of subhuman hominins and early true man are different in a manner that penetrates their entire natures, not merely some Cartesian superadded “rationality.”

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  124. @Dennis Bonnette: [S]exual relations between a true human being and a mere animal is, by definition, the mortal sin of bestiality – a grotesquely disordered moral act.

    What is the A-T argument for the immorality of bestiality? One argument, I would guess, is that bestiality is a misdirection of the sexual organs that thwarts their reproductive purpose, like contraception or masturbation.

    But, on the hypothesis that humans and pre-humans could reproduce, sex with pre-humans would not thwart the reproductive purpose of the sex organs. What are the other reasons why bestiality is immoral?

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  125. @Dennis Bonnette

    If it seems problematic that two individuals from different species could produce offspring together, what about an alternative picture?

    It's not that the human and the pre-human combine their reproductive capacities to jointly create offspring. Rather, the human (say, she) uses the pre-human as an optional part of her own "reproductive cycle". The situation could be analogous to how flowers can use bees as part of their reproductive cycle. Or to how viruses can use cells to reproduce. (I understand that the status of viruses as alive is controversial. But one could imagine more-obviously-alive organism using the same method of reproduction as viruses use.)

    Maybe the human female's egg uses the pre-human male's sperm just as a "blue-print", from which the egg creates a truly human sperm that carries identical genetic cargo. (Perhaps the new sperm also uses the matter of the original pre-human sperm, but of course the new sperm has a new substantial form.) Then the human egg and human sperm combine to create the human child.

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  126. @Dennis Bonnette:

    "[W]e have no certain evidence that [interbreeding of humans and subhumans] is even possible, especially given the fact that the substantial forms of subhuman hominins and early true man are different in a manner that penetrates their entire natures, not merely some Cartesian superadded 'rationality.'"

    And with that much I concur, so please don't take me to be disagreeing with you too egregiously. I certainly wouldn't claim that we know it is possible, just that I don't see any reason to presume it isn't.

    I would, though, be interested in your responses to Tyrrell McAllister's questions above.

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  127. @Tyrrell McAllister

    I think what I'm getting at is that you aren't a materialist the moment you posit such immaterial mind independent things - even if they require matter first in some sense.

    I quite get you point. What you are saying is form just is reducible to matter. There is a partial, though understandable confusion with what philosophy is trying to explain here and it's not the same as physics. I suppose it's the 'why anything at all' or 'why this thing, rather than that'. I think to properly understand form you need to understand what it is meant to explain is not simply something superfluous with matter.

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  128. @Irish Thomist: I think what I'm getting at is that you aren't a materialist the moment you posit such immaterial mind independent things - even if they require matter first in some sense.

    Daniel Dennett argues that "centers of gravity" really exist. (See his article "Real Patterns".) Do you consider him to be a materialist in spite of this?

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  129. @Dennis Bonnette

    Take into account some of us presuppose a lot of your metaphysics. I just think we are speaking about something very theoretical in this area here and we need to be open to development. Note some of the other points I made and the questions about your position on essence and so forth.

    I respect your position and you certainly are offering robust counter arguments.

    With Scott I would say we don't know that it happened. Although I would add if we could argue 1) it was possible 2)It isn't precisely bestiality in the moral sense (are we really assuming Adam and Eve were precisely like modern man after all?) 3) that it would make more sense for God to have us 'go forth and multiple' without having Adam and Eve's children needing to sin in order to do so. Then we would be in a position of near certitude that if there was a certain size of population required then this is probably how God achieved his goal of the rise of human persons.

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  130. @Tyrrell McAllister

    Is he speaking pragmatically and using such abstract 'objects' by way of utility?

    I just checked what Feser would claim his realism is, as it happens it's a 'Scholastic realism'. Not really a surprise.


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  131. @ Tyrrell McAllister,

    Your question is a good one. I will briefly explain why other reasons than procreative purpose preclude bestial acts, but will not engage in a full defense of natural law ethics on this subject, which would derail this thread from its proper topic.

    First, your speaking of the “reproductive purpose of the sex organs” reduces sexual morality to the kind of merely biological thinking that beset the arguments over contraception decades ago. Sexual union is not mere biology, but an expression of intimate personal love between two people in a context (marriage) sanctioned by natural and Church law. Sexual acts should be understood, not as mere activities of sexual organs, but as acts of the entire person in which he uses his sexual powers to express personal love for his spouse in an act both unitive and open to life.

    Following natural law, Heribert Jone, in his book, Moral Theology, gives the definition of marriage as “a contract by which two competent persons of the opposite sex give to each other the exclusive and irrevocable right over their bodies for the procreation and education of children.” (p. 483.) Sexual acts are licit solely within this contract.

    Fornication and adultery are fully able to be procreative acts, but they violate the unitive character of marriage, since the parties involved lack a valid marriage contract. Clearly, bestiality, even assuming it should be procreative, violates the union of “two competent persons,” since a person is a supposit (substance) of a rational nature -- and irrational animals, no matter how sexually attractive, are not persons.

    While the subjective experience of an early human beings might seduce them into thinking they are in love with a subhuman “concubine,” the objective morality of their sexual unions is outside of any possible marriage context that can render them licit. Moreover, it constitutes sexual gratification with an impersonal object, constituting thereby, a grotesquely disordered moral act.

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  132. Tyrrell McAllister said...

    “If it seems problematic that two individuals from different species could produce offspring together, what about an alternative picture?”


    “It's not that the human and the pre-human combine their reproductive capacities to jointly create offspring. Rather, the human (say, she) uses the pre-human as an optional part of her own "reproductive cycle". The situation could be analogous to how flowers can use bees as part of their reproductive cycle. Or to how viruses can use cells to reproduce. (I understand that the status of viruses as alive is controversial. But one could imagine more-obviously-alive organism using the same method of reproduction as viruses use.)”


    “Maybe the human female's egg uses the pre-human male's sperm just as a "blue-print", from which the egg creates a truly human sperm that carries identical genetic cargo. (Perhaps the new sperm also uses the matter of the original pre-human sperm, but of course the new sperm has a new substantial form.) Then the human egg and human sperm combine to create the human child.”

    Your alternative hypothesis is very original and creative, and, I must say, impressive.

    Truthfully, I am not a biologist. Can you please explain to me exactly by what known biological mechanism a female egg might be able to create a truly human sperm?

    As far as I know the reproductive processes of the hominin biological species would be sufficiently like our own as to preclude any proper analogy to that of flowers or viruses.

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  133. @Irish Thomist: Is he speaking pragmatically and using such abstract 'objects' by way of utility?

    Pragmatism is definitely relevant, but there is an important distinction here between what I'll call "speech-pragmatism" and "thing-pragmatism".

    Speech-pragmatism would be this position: We should say that centers of gravity are real — that is, talk as if they were real — because talking this way is useful.

    This is not what I take Dennett's position to be. Rather, on my reading, Dennett is what I'm calling a thing-pragmatist:

    Centers of gravity are real, and we know this because the centers of gravity themselves — the actually existing centers of gravity out there, existing independently of our minds — are useful.

    Both kinds of pragmatism justify existence-talk in terms of what is useful. The difference is in what is ultimately being called "useful".

    According to speech-pragmatism, only the talk is useful. You can be agnostic about whether the immaterial thing that you're talking about really exists.

    According to thing-pragmatism (Dennett's view, and mine), it is the immaterial thing itself that is useful. Moreover, if you recognize that the thing is useful, then you must recognize in particular that it exists. (To be useful is just a particular way to be). Thus, you cannot be agnostic about whether the thing itself actually exists. If you engage in existence-talk about the thing, then you are committing yourself to the actual and mind-independent existence of the thing.

    Here's a quote from the paper to back up my interpretation:

    [C]enters of gravity are real because they are (somehow) good abstract objects. They deserve to be taken seriously, learned about, used. If we go so far as to distinguish them as real (contrasting them, perhaps, with those abstract objects which are bogus), that is because we think they serve in perspicuous representations of real forces, 'natural' properties, and the like.

    And Dennett does indeed want to "distinguish them as real":

    [M]ore needs to be said to convince philosophers that a mild and intermediate sort of realism is a positively attractive position, and not just the desperate dodge of ontological responsibility it has sometimes been taken to be. I have just such a case to present, a generalization and extension of my earlier attempts, via the concept of a pattern. My aim on this occasion is not so much to prove that my intermediate doctrine about the reality of psychological states is right, but just that it is quite possibly right, because a parallel doctrine is demonstrably right about some simpler cases.

    (He calls his doctrine "mild" here, but he's not talking about some notion of "mild existence". Rather, he's pointing to particular distinctions that he teases out in the article between his view and that of Fodor and that of Davidson. As far as I can see, these distinctions aren't immediately relevant to our conversation.)

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  134. @Dennis Bonnette: Can you please explain to me exactly by what known biological mechanism a female egg might be able to create a truly human sperm?

    I hope that you are not too disappointed to learn that I cannot.

    Am I correct in gathering that answering your challenge would require knowing exactly how the different substantial forms (human vs. pre-human) manifest in the matter of the sperm. The "biological mechanism" used by the egg would then have to change the material constitution of the sperm so that it reflected that of the human substantial form. Is that right?

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  135. @Dennis Bonnette: I will briefly explain why other reasons than procreative purpose preclude bestial acts...

    Thanks for this helpful reply.

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  136. @ Tyrrell McAllister,

    No, I have not even reached the level of your last question.

    I am still stuck on trying to fathom how an egg produces a sperm.

    As I said, I am not a biologist.

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  137. @Dennis Bonnette: I am still stuck on trying to fathom how an egg produces a sperm.

    For the sake of illustration, imagine that the material difference between pre-human sperm and human sperm is this: pre-human sperm has a tab A sticking out of one side and a slot B indented on the other. Human sperm has neither the tab nor the slot.

    The biological mechanism employed by the egg is this: At the beginning of the acrosome reaction (about which I know nothing other than what I just read on Wikipedia), the egg severs tab A from the sperm and grafts the tab into slot B. The egg now has a sperm that is materially identical to (and hence has the same substantial form as) a human sperm.

    As I said, the tabs and slots are just for illustration. Moreover, I agree that anything remotely like this scenario is wildly implausible. (After all, I'm the Dennettian.)

    My question is: Are you also saying that it is not just implausible but metaphysically unfathomable?

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  138. @Tyrrell McAllister:

    "…is materially identical to (and hence has the same substantial form as)…"

    According to A-T the first does not imply the second.

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  139. @Scott.

    Right. But, even still, sometime you can turn an X into a Y, where Xs and Ys have different substantial forms, by dismembering an X, rearranging the parts in a certain way, and then letting nature "take its course", right? (For example, during chemical reactions.) My "hence" just meant that, in my hypothetical scenario, something like that works.

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  140. @ Tyrrell McAllister

    Borrowing from your comment to Scott,

    ” Right. But, even still, sometime you can turn an X into a Y, where Xs and Ys have different substantial forms, by dismembering an X, rearranging the parts in a certain way, and then letting nature "take its course", right? (For example, during chemical reactions.) My "hence" just meant that, in my hypothetical scenario, something like that works.”

    I confess that I am struggling to follow all this, but if I grasp the essence of what you are saying, it seems to be – not that an egg begets a sperm, but that a human egg does something to a subhuman sperm, thereby turning it into a human sperm – and then gets pregnant with a human baby thereby. Right?

    There is still a difficulty. All the human egg did was to make a material change in the subhuman sperm. (It matters not what.) This change caused a substantial change in the subhuman sperm, turning it into a human sperm.

    If you can pull off that last move, you are home free – since you now have moved the entire process into control by the human substantial form and reproduction can proceed at a purely human level.

    The fly in the ointment is that “little change” in the subhuman sperm. Metaphysically, the whole point made is that, while evolution or some other force (in this case, that clever egg) can make material changes in an organism, even changes which move the matter to great proximity to the human status, it is only the subsequent and higher human form that can actualize the matter in its ultimate human disposition. But that human form is never found in the prior, even penultimate matter, that awaits the change. So, where does the new form come from. The prior state of the matter? No, because the prior state was only proximately disposed to the new form, meaning it was not yet under the new form’s organization. From the prior form? No, because the prior form was subhuman. From the egg? No, because, while the egg has its own form, it does not magically confer that form on the sperm that it is only materially manipulating.

    It appears that the new human form which is to come to be as a result of this change in the subhuman form simply has no place from which to originate. Hence, the change hypothesized is impossible.

    In the case of the original creation of Adam, the source of the new human form is God’s direct creation of it. Once Adam exists, his matter is then fit exclusively for the true human form, and hence, through natural procreation, that matter’s disposition remains in the natural human species – although God must create the new spiritual soul each and every time a new human being is conceived. So, the source of the humanly-disposed matter is explained.

    In the case you suggest, we cannot find a proper proportionate cause for the ultimate disposition of the sperm in terms of the human natural species.

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  141. @Dennis Bonnette:

    [I]f I grasp the essence of what you are saying, it seems to be – not that an egg begets a sperm, but that a human egg does something to a subhuman sperm, thereby turning it into a human sperm – and then gets pregnant with a human baby thereby. Right?

    Yes, and thinks for your answer. It's given me food for thought.

    But that human form is never found in the prior, even penultimate matter, that awaits the change. So, where does the new form come from. The prior state of the matter? No, because the prior state was only proximately disposed to the new form, meaning it was not yet under the new form’s organization. From the prior form? No, because the prior form was subhuman. From the egg? No, because, while the egg has its own form, it does not magically confer that form on the sperm that it is only materially manipulating.

    My understanding was that the human form — that is, the substantial form of the entire person — is created specially by God. Normally, two humans mate, and their union creates something material, which is ready to be informed (or ensouled) by God with a human substantial form. Thus, the egg doesn't need to confer a human form on the sperm because the human form is going to come from God. In my story, the egg "just" needs to change the pre-human sperm in such a way that, when the egg and the sperm fuse, the material result is ready to be ensouled by God.

    This material result, prior to ensoulment by God, is a material substance, isn't it? I expect that there is a technical Scholastic term for this substance, the thing that is there just prior to ensoulment by God. Out of ignorance, I will call it the "human pre-zygote" for now. Since the human pre-zygote is a material substance, why couldn't mere material manipulation by the egg suffice to change the sperm into something able to produce a human pre-zygote with the egg? Why would there be any mystery about how the egg could give the necessary form to the sperm?

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  142. @ Tyrrell McAlister

    You wrote:

    “My understanding was that the human form — that is, the substantial form of the entire person — is created specially by God. Normally, two humans mate, and their union creates something material, which is ready to be informed (or ensouled) by God with a human substantial form. Thus, the egg doesn't need to confer a human form on the sperm because the human form is going to come from God. In my story, the egg "just" needs to change the pre-human sperm in such a way that, when the egg and the sperm fuse, the material result is ready to be ensouled by God.”

    This is very close, but not quite there. The problem remains that the subhuman sperm, despite manipulation by the human egg, would still lack the ultimate disposition which comes only from the “already” presence of the human species form. Note your last line above: “…when the egg and the sperm fuse, the “material result” is “ready” to be ensouled by God.”

    That “material result” is no more “ready” to be ensouled than was the penultimate matter that God used initially to create Adam. Yes, God did so infuse the soul – but not upon something that was proximately disposed to be the human zygote, but rather into the actual creation of the human zygote itself. That is what makes direct intervention by God necessary to account for the creation of the new and superior philosophical natural species of true man. That creation of Adam initiated the human species, in which each and every subsequent organism possesses the perfect human disposition of the matter. It is handed on to all future generations by continuity of the human matter itself.

    In all seriousness, this is difficult matter to explain in a thread like this. The careful precision proper to the matter at hand is better expressed in a published article where more time and care can be taken to get expressions precisely accurate.

    Still, perhaps it will help if I point out something not before mentioned. If you need God to elevate the matter in the first place to make Adam, why do you need God subsequently to make each and every human soul at the point of its conception also?

    The answer is that God’s intervention is needed in a twofold manner: (1) to elevate the matter to specifically human material organization, and (2) to create the human spiritual soul (since the parents/generators cannot do that, whether they be human or not). In Adam’s case, both forms of intervention were needed. In subsequent human conceptions, solely the second function was necessary, since the submicroscopic organization of the matter was already perfectly suited to the human substantial form, since it is derived from a body already informed by the human substantial form.

    Since the egg-manipulated subhuman sperm remains “unelevated” prior to God’s intervention, its matter remains unfit for God’s action – unless He chooses to make another Adam! Thus, it is not parallel to other forms of natural human conception, where the matter is already specifically human, even to its ultimate material disposition.

    Fortunately, I can direct you to an article I already published – one that is nearly identical to the second appendix of the third edition of my Origin of the Human Species. Please read it carefully, and perhaps you will grasp what I am trying to convey: http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/philosophy_darwinian_evolution.html

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  143. I have to go back to "interbreeding" for which there is no scientific proof. Cross species copulation does not occur in nature (except perhaps with rare biochemical abnormalities). There are no proven HYBRIDS in nature. This is because sexual activity is biochemically determined by pheromones. PERIOD. When you pick up any book on alleged cross species reproduction or "sex", check the index. If "pheromone" is not there, throw the book away. A bigger problem is the fact that hybrids (forced by humans, to create mules, for example), cannot reproduce...basically because at meiosis, the molecules cannot line up to equally divide into identical entities. That hybrids cannot reproduce destroys macro-evolution as promoted. Darwin wrote of that and specifically said that such was NOT part of natural selection. There are more scientific criticisms of evolution which need cogent answers. "Bestiality" and cross species miscegnation (for want of a better word)do not exist in nature. Science could criticize evolution more than it criticizes creationists, but it won't for obvious emotional reasons.

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  144. @Dennis Bonnette: In all seriousness, this is difficult matter to explain in a thread like this.

    You sell yourself short. Your comment seemed very clear to me. This division was particularly illuminating:

    God’s intervention is needed in a twofold manner: (1) to elevate the matter to specifically human material organization, and (2) to create the human spiritual soul (since the parents/generators cannot do that, whether they be human or not).

    I see that my question is specifically about step (1). In particular, the egg, in my story, needs to act on the pre-human sperm so that the result has a "specifically human material organization" — that is, the substantial form of a normal human sperm.

    Now, this substantial form possessed by a normal human sperm, it has no immaterial aspect, right? For, the human sperm has no intellect nor any other immaterial operation (right?). I gather that, when the sperm was still in a human's body, it shared in that human's form, including its immaterial aspects. But the sperm is no longer in that body. It now exists as a substance in its own right (doesn't it?), with an entirely material substantial form (right?).

    So, my question becomes, why couldn't mere material manipulations impart this merely material form? In particular, what metaphysical obstacle prevents the human egg from performing the necessary material manipulations on a pre-human sperm?

    Does the article that you linked to address this question? That is, does it address the question of why God is needed to perform step (1) even when you already have a human egg in the picture?

    I can understand why the original Adam and Eve needed God to perform step (1). For, prior to them, no natural body possessed the power to perform the necessary material manipulations in the course of its natural operation.

    But, after Adam and Eve, such natural bodies did exist — namely, the bodies of Adam and Eve themselves. In particular, on my hypothesis, a human egg could perform the necessary material manipulations using a pre-human sperm as "raw material".

    Is there some metaphysical obstacle to saying that, when God created Eve, one power he gave Eve's eggs was the entirely material power of turning pre-human sperm into human sperm?

    (Again, if your article addresses this question, I'll happily read that instead of continuing to bother you in these comments.)

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  145. @ Tyrrell McAllister

    While my article does not directly address the hypothesis that you raise, it does explain in detail why it takes praeternatural intervention to raise the subhuman to the human. I would urge you to take a look at it, especially the parts that pertain to what we are discussing – and also because it is but a click away on the internet.

    By the way, I am most impressed with your insights into Thomistic philosophy – given that you admit to a materialist commitment. You are clearly able to “think with” the Thomistic method and principles.

    The problem remains as to how to change the subhuman sperm’s subhuman material organization into a properly human one. An added complication is what exactly is the nature of a sperm or ovum? They are not an actual human person or human substance, but merely a part which has been removed to function as a temporary independent entity to serve the reproductive function. In fact, the genetic material has been essentially “cut in half!” You are right. The sperm is a substance, lacking intellective powers. It is itself not even a proper individual in a species, but merely a temporary instrument, a semi-complete functional tissue derived from the human substance. I am not really certain how to describe it precisely.

    Still, this much is clear. The subhuman sperm does not have the material organization of the human substance, since it has never been under the aegis of the human substantial form. In this respect, it is in the same position as the penultimate matter that exists prior to the creation of Adam. (Cf. my article.) It still needs, somehow, to attain the exact material organization that belongs to the human species – and it lacks it.

    Now if the human ovum is to somehow (it matters not how) change that subhuman sperm into what is actually human sperm, it must do the same thing that God did in using the penultimate matter of hominin evolution to create the first true human, or, in this case, a new truly human organic entity – something belonging to the human species and governed as to its material organization by the human substantial form (even though that form itself is not present in either the sperm or the ovum).

    This, in turn, means that to change the subhuman sperm into human sperm, the egg must elevate it to the new and higher human species. And it must do this as an external agent, since the sperm is not part of the egg’s own “human species” being and nature. Thus, the egg would have to do what only God could do, just as He did in the case of the formation of Adam. But the egg is not God. Therefore, it cannot perform the feat you hypothetically assign to it. It cannot cause a substantial change in the subhuman sperm that would elevate it in being so as to become tissue that belongs to the new and higher philosophical natural species which has the concomitant submicroscopic material organization specific to human nature.

    That is my best initial reply to your excellent question.

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  146. @Tyrrell McAllister

    Pragmatism is definitely relevant, but there is an important distinction here between what I'll call "speech-pragmatism" and "thing-pragmatism".

    A clear and helpful distinction.

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  147. @ Tyrrell McAllister

    Despite all my arguments aimed at proving that interspecific breeding between subhuman hominins and true human beings might be impossible, you may be interested to see how I handle the interbreeding question in an article entitled, “The Rational Credibility of a Literal Adam and Eve,” which has been accepted for publication in November 2015 in the peer reviewed Spanish Thomist journal, Espiritu.

    Since it is not yet published and will be copyrighted material, I prefer not to cite from the article directly. Still, here is the gist of the argument:

    From the perspective of modern science, the subhuman population in which Adam would appear would likely be biologically virtually identical to the first true humans. Given that fact, the biological possibility of interbreeding cannot be ruled out.

    Philosophically, the fact that one parent would be a true human and the other a subhuman, might entail a possible clash between the diverse substantial forms engaged in this sexual union. Since the substantial form of the true human would be essentially superior to the substantial form of the subhuman, one can argue that the proximate disposition of the matter would be dominated by the true human form, making it more perfectly fitted to actuation by the human substantial form in its ultimate disposition.

    Hence, arguably the offspring would be a true human – assuming God creates the needed spiritual soul as He does at every human conception.

    So, you see I am not really arguing against the possibility of interbreeding as forcefully as you might suspect. Still, I do point out that interbreeding might appear possible, but, in actuality, not be so for some reason unknown to us.

    When published in November, this article should be available free of charge online -- although the web address is hard to find.

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  148. @Dennis Bonnette: By the way, I am most impressed with your insights into Thomistic philosophy – given that you admit to a materialist commitment. You are clearly able to “think with” the Thomistic method and principles.

    Thank you. Much credit goes to Feser and his expository skills, as well as to the high quality of the commenters on this blog.

    Now if the human ovum is to somehow (it matters not how) change that subhuman sperm into what is actually human sperm, it must do the same thing that God did in using the penultimate matter of hominin evolution to create the first true human, or, in this case, a new truly human organic entity – something belonging to the human species and governed as to its material organization by the human substantial form (even though that form itself is not present in either the sperm or the ovum).

    I think that I follow you to a certain extent. I also read the article of yours that you linked to. Let me try to restate what you said to check whether I understand as much as I think I do. What follows is my attempted restatement:

    Only God can create a human substantial form. Now, the human sperm does not have the same substantial form as the human person. Thus, the human form does not directly govern the material organization of the sperm in the way that the form of a substance governs the matter of that same substance. Nonetheless, because the human body made the sperm, we can still say that the sperm is "governed as to its material organization by the human substantial form". So there is an indirect sense in which the human substantial form governs the sperm. This indirect governance is enough to elevate the human sperm to a very high level, even if the sperm has no intellect.

    In particular, the human sperm is elevated enough so that a human can make it in only one way. Any other way of making a sperm must be performed by God. The sole way that a human can make a sperm is this: He can generate the sperm as a virtual part of himself, informed by his own form, and then release the sperm, whereupon it becomes its own substance, but one which is still indirectly governed by his form. Only by using his own form in this way can a human make a sperm. Since the egg in my hypothesis is not making the sperm from itself in this way, what I describe is not possible.

    That is my effort to restate your answer. Is my restatement accurate?

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  149. @Dennis Bonnette

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbalmesiana.org%2Fcream%2F%3Fpage%3D50&sandbox=1

    The Espiritu Journal I believe?

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  150. @ Tyrrell McAllister,

    You stated it better than I did myself.

    Are you sure you are not a Thomist in disguise?

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  151. @ Tyrrell McAllister

    While you claim that you are a materialist at present, given your facile grasp of Thomistic metaphysics, I predict that you will eventually find that Thomistic metaphysics is the proper path to objective truth.

    Since the Espiritu scholarly journal web site address is difficult to find, I will post it here in case anyone wants to see my article, "The Rational Credibility of a Literal Adam and Eve" when it is published in November 2015. See this: http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/revista?codigo=5696

    The complete text in English can be opened with a little site searching and Adobe reader.


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  152. Now that this thread is being moderated I'll take the opportunity to apologize for what I wrote in Nov, 2011. First, I was way too blunt. Bluntness tends to get in the way of good communication. There are better, more effective ways of expressing oneself. Second, I try to keep personalities out of my posts. I slipped up terribly in that case. Again, I apologize for that.

    My mother used to say, If you don't have anything good to say about someone, don't say anything at all. That was a long time ago. After fifty years of the coarsening of the culture, that advice seems quaint, even naive. But maybe it's not such bad advice.

    It's easy to forget we're more than words on a monitor. I don't doubt most, if not all of us would make fine neighbors. Seated in conversation around a kitchen table, none of us, hopefully, would hold our metaphysics against us. The people in my real life have more important things on their minds.

    The truth is, there's an infinite amount of inanity on the Internet. I was spending way too much time chasing windmills, not only here but everywhere. My "banning" nudged me toward more productive, fulfilling pursuits. I'm almost thankful for being kicked out in the street where I could shake from my shoes that clinging, Aristotelian dust.

    But...

    Yes, there is a but.

    I will not apologize for an "intractable unwillingness to even feign attempts at formulating rational arguments." (Glenn)

    Nor will I apologize for "rank sophistry and attempts to score cheap points whilst completely avoiding profitable discussion." (Jeremy Taylor)

    Those are false charges.

    The modern world does not see eye to eye with the A-T POV. It sides more with me. Where I differ from both, I'm confident of my position. Sophistry is in the eye of the beholder. This becomes clear when the accuser is of the sort to wonder at how many angels can dance on a pinhead or when the human soul entered humanity.

    I assume the human race will transform itself in 2000 years. We'll modify our biological core. We'll be our own final cause. I'm not suggesting this is good. I'm suggesting it's inevitable.

    Let's think about the anthropologist of that man-made species. He won't have to dig through our ruins or sift through our trash. He'll look right here, at the blogs of today, maybe at this very site. What will this (hopefully) super-rational creature think of us? When he reads that Don Jindra was like a sophist, will he take it at face value? Let's assume this soulless creature still has an intact, if warped sense of humor. He'll read through the posts, nearly 400 tedious posts about souls mixing with biology and speculation about substantial human form. Then there are those posts accusing Don Jindra of irrational, unprofitable arguments. Oh, the irony, he might think. I'll be satisfied if he gets a nervous chuckle or two.

    I do apologize for my sins. But I do not apologize for my unwillingness to abandon reasonable skepticism.

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  153. Sophistry is in the eye of the beholder.

    Haha.

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  154. @ Tyrrell McAllister

    In an earlier post, I think I recall you allowing that immaterial realities existed, but insisted that they were merely the necessary byproducts of material realities. Thus, in essence, an immaterial world can be admitted in a materialist metaphysics with perfect consistency. In fact, the Marxists held much the same position – that the evolution of matter could give rise to immaterial entities which were produced by matter and yet remained dependent upon matter. (I am absolutely not calling you a Marxist!)

    I submit that reality is divided into not two, but three different ways in which things can exist: (1) Matter: that which is extended in space, having physical parts outside of physical parts. (As a point of clarification, this includes physical energy, since energy fields can be located as being in certain parts of space/time and not others.) (2) Spirit: the strictly immaterial: that which is not extended in space, and is not dependent for its existence on anything physically extended in space. And (3), the “organic” (for want of a better word): the not- strictly-immaterial immaterial: that which is not itself extended in space, but which depends upon something extended in space.

    It seems to me that you are maintaining the existence of things in (1) and (3), but not (2). Right? Now to switch to the A-T metaphysics. We hold that material things exist, such as rocks and horses, but in addition allow that immaterial things also exist that are yet dependent upon material realities, for example, the hylemorphic principles found in material substances (form and matter), which cease to be when the composite thing they form ceases to be. (When a dog dies, it form or material soul ceases to be.) This level of reality also applies to the entire order of sensory realities: perceptions, images, sense memories, sense appetites and emotions, and so forth. They all are not extended in space, but are utterly dependent on the continued existence of the animal that has them. There are other things of this type, but enumerating them all serves no purpose.

    Where materialism ends is where true spirit begins. I don’t intend here to prove them actually spiritual, but to illustrate the category: universal concepts, reasoning, judgments, will acts, the spiritual soul of man, angelic spirits, and God Himself. It is the work of the philosophical sciences of psychology and metaphysics to demonstrate the existence and strictly immaterial nature of each of these realities. (Not angels, of course!)

    My point is to show that Thomism admits the kind of immaterial things that you allow yourself, but in addition insists that there are other immaterial entities that do not depend on matter for their being. The main proofs for these, in the case of man, are the proofs for the spirituality of the human soul: (1) perfect self-reflection, (2) knowledge of the nature of all bodies, and (3) ability to form universal concepts from phantasms formed from sensible experience (Nominalism fails). The experience of human freedom is another fertile area for discussion in this context. And then there are the much misunderstood proofs for God’s existence.

    I realize that the existence of a genuinely spiritual domain is subject to discussion that may exceed the bounds of this thread. My main purpose is to simply point out that Thomism is aware of the kinds of things you mention that are immaterial, yet depend on matter. And yet, in addition, it insists that an entirely distinct domain exists which is both immaterial and utterly independent of matter for its existence.

    PS for Irish Thomist,

    Yes, you found Espiritu's home page. I posted the actual web page for the online articles.

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  155. @Don Jindra

    Some of what you said seems to cut as not actually know what you are talking about.

    Nor does an argumentum ad populum help you make your case.

    I do not want to be negative but hopefully you might see you are not necessarily understanding things well enough yet.

    Is English your first language or have you read much on Thomism in book form (not online)?

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  156. @djindra

    >I will not apologize for an "intractable unwillingness to even feign attempts at formulating rational arguments." (Glenn)

    >Nor will I apologize for "rank sophistry and attempts to score cheap points whilst completely avoiding profitable discussion." (Jeremy Taylor)

    >Those are false charges.

    This is all disputable IMHO. But rather than major in the minors & speaking solely for myself I would be willing to give you a chance.

    I mean how can anyone argue with this?

    "I do apologize for my sins. But I do not apologize for my unwillingness to abandon reasonable skepticism."

    Peace.

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  157. I'm curious what Flynn-Kemp has to say about the nature of nature before the fall. Meaning that before the fall (regardless of whether you subscribe to Flynn-Kemp, or a strict, literal reading of Genesis) the world was by definition not cursed by God. When Adam and Eve committed original sin (a specific act), sin (in a general sense) entered the world and God cursed creation. In any case, it would seem has follow that before sin entered the world, there was no sin in the world (duh), and hence the world was "perfect" (in the sense of not being tarnished by sin / not being cursed by God). We could say that the natural order was functioning exactly as God created it, without any influence of sin.

    If the world was not cursed and did not contain any sin before the fall, wouldn't this have an impact on the behavior of even non-rational animals (to say nothing of the impact on the Earth geolocially, meteorologically, etc.)? If yes, it would seem difficult to square the concepts stated regarding interbreeding of rational and non-rational humans, because if the natural order was as God intended it, there wouldn't be interbreeding of species (beastiality), men taking multiple wives, etc. These things are only possible after sin enters the world and God curses the world. But Flynn-Kemp inserts these, ostensibly sinful, actions before the fall.

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  158. theogeocalculus...
    ..cannot get it to transfer...

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  159. Late to the game here, but I'm in concurrence with Anonymous' objection at the top of the combox. To maintain a Hylomorphic stance toward the mind, and not just a crude interactionist dualism (or worse!), one should argue that our "non-rational" ancestors had to be (at least potentially) more like philosophical zombies; they could SEEM rational but lacked the "attachment" of the immaterial intellect which actually grants consciousness this feature. Otherwise you get into a situation where Adam's behavior cannot make sense without reference to an immaterial substance which is causally responsible for massive behavioral change in Him but that are totally uncorrelated with brain activity or, more charitably, that the immaterial intellect generates otherwise radically unpredictable and inexplicable brain activity. But that implies there should be an irreducible causal gap in the behavior of the brain that can't be, not just predicted, but even UNDERSTOOD without direct, and necessarily "inexplicable," reference to the immaterial intellect. (In any good PofMind, massive behavioral changes in the creature should correspond to massive difference in brain wiring and activity, even if we concede that the brain is not completely deterministic.) If rational thinking can be correlated to brain states, as A-T itself claims, then it's safe to assume that even if this is not sufficent to explain rationality itself metaphysically it should show no gap where one MUST implant an immaterial intellect to do "miraculous" causal work for behavior.

    Ugh, I'm not being clear. here's a thought experiment: imagine God decides to not grant a newborn baby the immaterial intellect; at what point in physiological development does this deficiency appear from a neurological point of view? If the baby exhibits problems immediately there should be some kind of neurological correlation between the lack of the intellect and its problematic behavioral symptoms. But, if the only difference between this baby and a healthy one is that something immaterial is missing, then there should be no traces of this neuropathology. See the problem? I think one has to take the hard line and say, yes, behavioral zombies are possible. These creatures would be pseudo-rational, pseudo-free and pseudo-conscious. (Perhaps that's what a true psychopath is.) Am I missing something here?

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  160. Why, when it comes to these so-called scientific issues, do we constantly and consistently force the Queen to serve her handmaiden? By doing so we are undermining the very foundation of our holy Catholic Faith. Small wonder is it that our Sacred Scriptures are scoffed at and called bronze age myths. Small wonder is it that our divinely revealed Faith has become so irrelevant in the world at large. And we have brought all of this upon ourselves. For if the Omniscient God cannot get a few simple scientific matters correct then why should anyone believe Him on the more weightier matters of justice and morals?

    I build houses and I restore houses and I can tell you this, once the foundation is gone there is not much left that can be salvaged.

    The more we reinterpret the Holy Scriptures, and the more we ignore the unanimous teaching of the Fathers on these matters, the more we destroy the foundation of our holy Catholic Church.

    We know from the writings of the Fathers that they also contended with heliocentric, vast ages of the earth, and evolutionary theories, and that they rejected them all, not on any scientific reasons, but simply because they were contrary to the Holy Scriptures.

    As for myself I have chosen to follow their lead and it has vastly improved my pilgrimage in the Faith. But each to his own. My point is that (to use Chesterton's metaphor) the Church has set some boundaries concerning these matters, but that does not stop a great many of Her children from trying to hop the fence. Indeed, and most regrettably, a great many have done so to their own destruction.

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  161. Dr. Feser,

    I have no philosophical training so what I write may sound completely stupid. But I do want to make the following objection to the Flynn-Kemp proposal.

    I would like to point out that when God created Adam & Eve, he must have necessarily had a valid way for them to propagate that did not require bestiality. I am sure that at least the Adam and Eve and their descendents without a fall would not prefer such a union is certain (Genesis 2:20 - "The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper as his partner."). So God certainly knew it possible that Adam and Eve could populate the earth without resorting bestiality.

    Similarly then, I see no reason why this method God had in mind should change after the fall.

    I also do not see how it would be possible to say that all are from from Adam and Eve. Some might have had a mother or father who was not a descendent from Adam and Eve.

    At the very least, I think the proposal should be changed to indicate that while such unions may have occurred, the resultant product was not human. But that would undermine the very reason (explanation for problems of genetic diversity among humans) that lead to this proposal. So maybe the proposal should be rejected completely.

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  162. In reading this, I began wondering about the feasibility of the Kemp-Flynn hypothesis, so I researched the genetics and found this article from MIT suggesting 2 common ancestors as in the Kemp-Flynn hypothesis about 6000 years ago: http://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Papers/Rohde-MRCA-two.pdf

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  163. This interaction might have been the cause of the original sin.

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  164. You are in error when you say Adam and Eve where the first people to bear the Imago Dei. The work of John Walton suggest rather the Imago Dei was first granted to humanity as a class and then god later selected Adam and Eve to be humanity's representatives

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