Friday, December 12, 2014

Causality and radioactive decay


At the Catholic blog Vox Nova, mathematics professor David Cruz-Uribe writes:

I… am currently working through the metaphysics of St. Thomas Aquinas as part of his proofs of the existence of God… [S]ome possibly naive counter-examples from quantum mechanics come to mind.  For instance, discussing the principle that nothing can change without being affected externally, I immediately thought of the spontaneous decay of atoms and even of particles (e.g., so-called proton decay).

This might be a very naive question: my knowledge of quantum mechanics is rusty and probably out of date, and I know much, much less about scholastic metaphysics.  So can any of our readers point me to some useful references on this specific topic? 

I’ve discussed this issue before, and one of Cruz-Uribe’s readers directs him to a blog post of mine in which I responded to a version of this sort of objection raised by physicist Robert Oerter.  Unfortunately, the combox discussion that ensues largely consists of a couple of Cruz-Uribe’s readers competing with each other to see who can emit the most squid ink (though Brandon Watson manfully tries to shine some light into the darkness).  One reader starts things out by writing:

Feser’s… argument seems to boil down to saying, “Just because we can’t find a cause for quantum phenomena doesn’t mean there isn’t one.” … Thing is, Bell has shown that you can’t have local unknown variables in quantum events. Bohm’s interpretation would give you the possibility of unknown variables (thus taking out the random, seemingly acausal, aspect), but at the price of locality (in short, such variables would be global, and not tied to a specific location; so you lose any predictability, anyway).

As readers of the post on Oerter know, this essentially just repeats the completely point-missing objection from Oerter that was the subject of the post, while ignoring what I said in the post in reply to the objection!  The combox discussion goes downhill from there, with so many points missed, questions begged and crucial distinctions blurred that you’d think you were reading Jerry Coyne’s blog. 

Cruz-Uribe’s reader accuses me of having a “weak” understanding of the relevant physics, which is why he launches into the mini lesson on Bell and Bohm.  But it’s his reading skills that are weak, since I made it clear in the post that I wasn’t in the first place making any claim about the physics of systems of the sort in question, and thus wasn’t saying anything that could be incompatible with what we know from physics.  In particular, I wasn’t advocating a “hidden variable theory” or the like, but rather making a purely philosophical point about causality that is entirely independent of such theories.

This is one of many factors that hinder fruitful discussion of these topics even with well-meaning people (like Cruz-Uribe) who know some science but know little philosophy.  They constantly translate philosophical claims into the physics terms that they feel more comfortable and familiar with, and proceed to run off at high speed in the wrong direction. 

This is why you really can’t address specific issues like radioactive decay without first doing some general philosophical stage-setting.  For it’s never really the empirical or scientific details that are doing the work in objections to Scholastic metaphysics like the one at issue.  What’s really doing the work is the ton of philosophical baggage that the critics unreflectively bring to bear on the subject -- the assumptions they read into the physics and then read back out again, thinking they’ve raised a “scientific” objection when what they’ve really done is raised a question-begging philosophical objection disguised as a scientific objection.  

(I imagine that educated religious people like Cruz-Uribe and his readers aren’t fooled by this kind of sleight of hand in other scientific contexts.  For instance, I’d wager that they would be unimpressed by arguments to the effect that neuroscience has shown that free will is an illusion.  As I have argued here and here, neuroscience has shown no such thing, and such claims invariably rest not on science but on tendentious philosophical assumptions that have been read into the scientific findings.  But exactly the same thing is true of claims to the effect that quantum mechanics has falsified the principle of causality, or that Newton or Einstein refuted the Aristotelian analysis of change.)

In what follows, then, I will first prepare the ground by calling attention to some common fallacies committed by critics of Scholastic metaphysics who appeal to modern physics -- fallacies some of which are committed by Cruz-Uribe’s readers in the course of their combox discussion.  Anyone wanting to comment intelligently on the subject at hand has to take care to avoid these fallacies.  Second, I will make some general remarks about what a philosophical approach to the subject at hand involves, as opposed to the approach taken by physics.  (I’ve discussed this issue many times before, and indeed did so in a couple of posts -- here and here -- that followed up the post on Oerter that Cruz-Uribe and his readers were discussing.)  Finally, in light of this background I’ll address the specific issue of radioactive decay and causality.

Fads and fallacies in the name of science

So, let’s consider some of the confusions that are rife in discussions of the relationship between physics on the one hand and philosophy (and in particular Scholastic philosophy) on the other:

A. Conflating empirical and metaphysical issues: Those who know some science but not a lot of philosophy very often assume that when a Scholastic philosopher says something about the nature of causality, or substance, or matter, or the like, then he is making a claim that stands or falls with what physics tells us, or at any rate should stand or fall with what physics tells us.  But this is a category mistake.  Scholastic metaphysics is not in competition with physics, but approaches the phenomena at a different (and indeed deeper) level of analysis.  Its claims do not stand or fall with the findings of physics, any more than the claims of arithmetic stand or fall with the findings of physics.  Indeed, like arithmetic, the basic theses of Scholastic metaphysics are (so the Scholastic argues) something any possible physics must presuppose.

Sometimes the critics assume that Scholastic metaphysics is in competition with physics because they are themselves making question-begging metaphysical assumptions.  For instance, they might assume that any rationally justifiable claim about the nature of matter simply must be susceptible of formulation in the mathematical language of physics, or must be susceptible of empirical falsification.  They are essentially making a metaphysics out of physics.  Only physics can tell us anything about the nature of physical reality (so the critic supposes), so any claim about the nature of physical reality is implicitly, even if not explicitly, a claim of physics.  As we will see below, this cannot possibly be right.  Physics cannot even in principle tell us everything there is to know about physical reality (let alone reality more generally).  But even if the assumption in question could be right, it simply begs the question against the Scholastic merely to assert it, since the Scholastic rejects this assumption, and on the basis of arguments that need to be answered rather than ignored (arguments I’ll discuss below). 

Sometimes the conflation of empirical and metaphysical issues is due less to such large-scale philosophical assumptions than to a simple fallacy of equivocation.  Both physicists and Scholastic metaphysicians use terms like “cause,” “matter,” and the like.  A superficial reading therefore often leads critics to assume that they are addressing the same issues, when in fact they are very often not using the key terms in the same sense. 

Sometimes the conflation is due to sheer intellectual sloppiness.  Critics will formulate the issues in ridiculously sweeping terms, making peremptory claims to the effect that “Aristotelianism was refuted by modern science,” for example.  In fact, of course, the labels “Aristotelianism” and “modern science” each cover a large number of distinct and logically independent ideas and arguments, and these need carefully to be disentangled before the question of the relationship between Scholastic metaphysics and modern physics can fruitfully be addressed.  It is no good to say (for example) that since Aristotle’s geocentrism and theory of natural place have been falsified, “therefore” we should not take seriously his theory of act and potency or the account of causality that rests on it.  This is simply a non sequitur.  Such issues are completely independent of one another, logically speaking (regardless of the contingent historical association between them).

B. Conflating genus and species: Even when physicists and Scholastic metaphysicians are using terms in the same sense, critics often confuse what is really only a specific instance of the general class named by a term with the general class itself.  For example, where the notion of “cause” is concerned, Scholastic metaphysicians distinguish between formal, material, efficient, and final causes.  Where efficient causes are concerned, they distinguish between principal and instrumental causes, between series of causes which are essentially ordered and those which are accidentally ordered, and between those which operate simultaneously versus those which are ordered in time.  They distinguish between total causes and partial causes, and between proximate and remote causes.  They regard causality as primarily a feature of substances and only secondarily as a relation between events.  They distinguish between causal powers and the operation of those powers, between active causal power and passive potencies.  And so forth.  All of these distinctions are backed by arguments, and the Scholastic maintains that they are all necessary in order to capture the complexity of causal relations as they exist in the actual world. 

Now, those who criticize Scholastic metaphysics on scientific grounds typically operate with a very narrow understanding of causality.  In particular, they often conceive of it as a deterministic relation holding between temporally separated events.  They will then argue (for example) that quantum mechanics has undermined causality thus understood, and conclude that it has therefore undermined causality full stop.  One problem with this, of course, is that whether quantum mechanics really is incompatible with determinism is a matter of controversy, though as I have said, nothing in the Scholastic position stands or falls with the defensibility of Bohmian hidden variable theories.  The deeper point is that it is simply fallacious to suppose that to undermine one kind of causality (and in one kind of context) is to undermine causality as such.  Certainly it begs the question against the Scholastic, who denies that all causality reduces to deterministic relations holding between temporally separated events.

The conflation of a general class with a specific kind within the general class is evident too in discussions of motion.  Scholastics and other Aristotelians think of motion in general as change, and change as the actualization of potency.  Local motion or change with respect to place or location is just one kind of actualization of a potency, and is metaphysically less fundamental than other kinds.  When motion is discussed in modern physics, however, it is of course local motion that is exclusively in view. 

There is nothing necessarily wrong with this focus, but it would be fallacious to draw, from what modern physics says about “motion” (in the sense of local motion), sweeping conclusions about what Aristotelians say about “motion” (in the sense of the actualization of potency).  This would be to confuse what is true of one kind of change for what is true of change as such.  Yet this kind of fallacious conflation is very common.  Of course, a critic of Scholastic metaphysics might claim that local motion is the only kind of change there really is, but merely to assert this is simply to beg the question against the Scholastic, who has arguments for the claim that local motion cannot be the only kind of change there is.  (I have addressed this particular issue in detail elsewhere, e.g. here and here.)

C. Confusing general principles with specific applications of those principles: When a thinker, whether a philosopher or a scientist, puts forward a general principle, he sometimes illustrates it with examples that later turn out to be deficient.  But it simply doesn’t follow that the general principle itself is mistaken.  For example, people often think of the evolution of the horse as a neat transition from very small animals to ever larger ones, as in the kind of exhibit they might have seen in a natural history museum as a child.  It turns out that things aren’t quite so neat.  There is no hard and fast correlation between the size of a horse and where it appears in the fossil record.  It doesn’t follow, however, that modern horses did not evolve from much smaller animals.  That earlier accounts of the evolution of the horse turn out to be mistaken does not entail that the general principle that horses evolved is mistaken.  (ID enthusiasts are kindly asked to spare us any frantic comments about evolution.  This is not a post about that subject.  It’s just an example.) 

However, though philosophical naturalists never tire of making this point when Darwinism is in question, they suddenly forget it when Aristotelianism or Scholasticism is what is at issue.  For example, Aristotelians defend the reality of final causality -- the idea that natural substances and processes are inherently “directed towards” certain characteristic effects or ranges of effects.  In previous centuries, the idea was often illustrated in terms of Aristotle’s view that heavy objects are naturally directed toward the center of the earth as their “natural place.”  That turns out to be mistaken.  This is often treated as a reason for rejecting the idea of final causality as such, but this simply doesn’t follow.  In general, the deficiencies of this or that illustration of some Scholastic metaphysical thesis are simply not grounds for rejecting the thesis itself.  (I’ve addressed this issue at greater length before, e.g. here, here, and here.)

The limits of physics

So that’s one set of background considerations that must be kept in mind when addressing topics like the one at issue: the begged questions, blurred distinctions, and missed points which  chronically afflict the thinking of those who raise purportedly scientific objections to Scholastic metaphysics.  Let’s move on now to the second set of background considerations, viz. the limits in principle to what physics can tell us about physical reality, and the unavoidability of a deeper metaphysical perspective. 

As I have emphasized many times, what physics gives us is a description of the mathematical structure of physical reality.  It abstracts from any aspect of reality which cannot be captured via its exclusively quantitative methods.  One reason that this is crucial to keep in mind is that from the fact that something doesn’t show up in the description physics gives us, it doesn’t follow that it isn’t there in the physical world.  This is like concluding from the fact that color doesn’t show up in a black and white pen and ink drawing of a banana that bananas must not really be yellow.  It both cases the absence is an artifact of the method employed, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the reality the method is being used to represent.  The method of representing an object using black ink on white paper will necessarily leave out color even if it is there, and the method of representing physical reality using exclusively mathematical language will necessarily leave out any aspect of physical reality which is not reducible to the quantitative, even if such aspects are there.

But it’s not just that such aspects might be there.  They must be there.  The quantitative description physics gives us is essentially a description of mathematical structure.  But mathematical structure by itself is a mere abstraction.  It cannot be all there is, because structure presupposes something concrete which has the structure.  Indeed, physics itself tells us that the abstraction cannot be all there is, since it tells us that some abstract mathematical structures do not fit the actual, concrete material world.  For example, Einstein is commonly taken to have shown that our world is not really Euclidean.  This could only be true if there is some concrete reality that instantiates a non-Euclidean abstract structure rather than a Euclidean abstract structure.  So, physics itself implies that there must be more to the world than the abstract structure it captures in its purely mathematical description, but it does not and cannot tell us exactly what this concrete reality is like. 

That physics by itself only gives us abstract structure is by no means either a new point or a point emphasized by Scholastics alone.  It was made in earlier generations by thinkers like Poincaré, Russell, Eddington, Weyl, and others, and in recent philosophy has been emphasized by Grover Maxwell, Michael Lockwood, Simon Blackburn, David Chalmers, and others. 

Moreover, we know there must be more to causality specifically than physics does or could tell us about.  The early Russell once argued that causation must not be a real feature of the world precisely because it does not show up in the description of the world physics gives us.  For physics, says Russell, describes the world in terms of differential equations describing functional relations between events, and these equations make no reference to causes.  “In the motions of mutually gravitating bodies, there is nothing that can be called a cause, and nothing that can be called an effect; there is merely a formula” (“On the Notion of Cause,” pp. 173-74).  Russell’s position has been the subject of a fair bit of attention in recent philosophy (e.g. here). 

Now, I don’t myself think it is quite right to say that physics makes no use of causal notions, since I think that physics tells us something about the dispositional features of fundamental particles, and dispositionality is a causal notion.  Still, as other philosophers have argued, higher-level causal features -- such as the causation we take ourselves to experience continuously in everyday life, in the behavior of tables, chairs, rocks, trees, and other ordinary objects -- are more difficult to cash out in terms of what is going on at the micro level described by physics.  Hilary Putnam is one contemporary philosopher who has addressed this problem, as I noted in a post from a few years ago.  Trenton Merricks is another, and argues that at least macro-level inanimate objects are unreal, since (he claims) they play no causal role in the world over and above the causal role played by their microphysical parts.

Merricks thinks living things are real, and certainly a Russell-style across-the-board denial of causation would be incoherent, for a reason implicit in a fact that the later Russell himself emphasized.  Our perceptual experiences give us knowledge of the external physical world only because they are causally related to that world.  To deny causality in the name of science would therefore be to undermine the very empirical foundations of science. 

Now, if there must be causality at the macro level (at the very least in the case of the causal relations between the external world and our perceptual experiences of it), and this causality is not captured in the description of the world that physics itself gives us, then it follows that there is more to causality than physics can tell us.  And even if you dispute the views of Russell, Putnam, Merricks, et al., physics itself is not going to settle the matter.  For it is not an empirical matter, but a philosophical dispute about how to interpret the empirical evidence.

(Nor will it do to dismiss such disputes on the grounds that the competing views about them are “unfalsifiable.”  It may be that there is no human being more comically clueless than the New Atheist combox troll who thinks he can dismiss philosophy on grounds of falsificationism -- a thesis put forward by a philosopher, Karl Popper.  As Popper himself realized, falsificationism is not itself a scientific thesis but a meta-level claim about science.)

If physics in general raises philosophical questions it cannot answer, the same is if anything even more clearly true of quantum mechanics in particular.  Feynman’s famous remark that nobody understands quantum mechanics is an overstatement, but it is certainly by no means obvious how to interpret some of the theory’s stranger aspects.  Quantum mechanics has been claimed to “show” all sorts of things -- that the law of excluded middle is false, that scientific realism is false, that idealism is true, etc.  By itself it shows none of these things.  In each case, certain philosophical assumptions are first read into quantum mechanics and then read out again.  But the same thing is true of claims to the effect that quantum mechanics undermines causality.  By itself it does not, and could not, show such a thing either.  Here as in the other cases, it is the metaphysical background assumptions we bring to bear on quantum mechanics that determine how we interpret it.  This is as true of philosophical naturalists, atheists, et al. as it is of Scholastics. 

Now, the Scholastic metaphysician argues, on grounds entirely independent of questions about how to interpret quantum mechanics, that there are a number of metaphysical theses that any possible empirical science is going to have to presuppose.  Most fundamentally, there is the Aristotelian theory of act and potency, according to which we cannot make sense of change as a real feature of the world unless we recognize that there is, in addition to what is actual on the one hand, and sheer nothingness on the other, a middle ground of potentiality.  Change is the actualization of a potentiality, and unless we affirm this we will be stuck with a static Parmenidean conception of the world.  And that is not an option, because the existence of change cannot coherently be denied.  Even to work through the steps of an argument for the non-existence of change is itself an instance of change.  Sensory experience – and thus the observation and experiment on which empirical science rests – presupposes real change.  (Hence it is incoherent to suggest, as is sometimes done, that relativity shows that change is illusory, since the evidence for relativity presupposes sensory experience and thus change.)

Now, the main concepts of the Aristotelian-Scholastic metaphysical apparatus – substantial form and prime matter, final causality and efficient causality, and so forth – are essentially an outworking of the theory of act and potency.  You can argue about whether this or that object truly has a substantial form or is merely an aggregate, about whether we have correctly identified and characterized the teleological features of such-and-such a natural process, and so on.  What cannot be denied is that substantial form, teleology, etc. are bedrock features of the natural order and will inevitably feature in a complete picture of the physical world at some level of analysis.  All of that follows from a consistent application of the theory of act and potency.  It also cannot be denied that any potential that is actualized is actualized by something already actual.  That is the core of the “principle of causality,” and It follows from the principle of sufficient reason -- a principle which, rightly understood, also cannot coherently be denied.  

I spell out the reasons for all of this in detail, and also discuss the inherent limitations of empirical science, in Scholastic Metaphysics.  The point to emphasize for present purposes is that the Scholastic holds that there a number of general metaphysical truths which we can know completely independently of particular disputes within physics or any other empirical science, precisely because they rest on what any possible empirical science must itself presuppose.  (One of Cruz-Uribe’s readers insinuates that in resting its key theses on something other than empirical science, Scholastic metaphysics undermines the possibility of any common ground with its critics.  But this is precisely the reverse of the truth and once again completely misses the point.  Since Scholastic metaphysical arguments begin with what empirical science presupposes -- for example, the possibility of sensory experience, and the possibility of at least partial explanations -- they thereby begin precisely with what the critics already accept, not with what they reject.)

Radioactive decay

So, here is where we are before we even get to the issue of radioactive decay:  Purportedly physics-based objections to Scholastic metaphysics – including objections to Scholastic claims about causality -- are, as a matter of course, poorly thought out.  They commonly blur the distinction between empirical and philosophical claims, confuse what is really only one notion of causality with causality as such, and confuse mere illustrations or applications of general metaphysical principles with the principles themselves.  Meanwhile, we know on independent grounds that physics, of its very nature, cannot in principle tell us everything there is to know about physical reality, including especially the causal features of physical reality.  Its exclusively mathematical conceptual apparatus necessarily leaves out whatever cannot be captured in quantitative terms.  Physics also implies that there must be something more to physical reality than what it captures, since mathematical structure is of itself a mere abstraction and there must be some concrete reality which has the structure.

We also know that quantum mechanics in particular raises all sorts of puzzling metaphysical questions (not merely about causality) that it cannot answer.  And, the Scholastic argues, we know on independent grounds – grounds that any possible empirical science must presuppose – that there are a number of metaphysical truths that we must bring to bear on our understanding of the world whatever the specific empirical facts turn out to be, including the truth that causality must be a real feature of the world.

So, when critics glibly allege that radioactive decay or other quantum phenomena undermine causality, the trouble is that they are making a charge that doesn’t even rise to the level of being well thought out.  It is preposterous to pretend that the burden of proof is on the Scholastic to show that quantum mechanics is compatible with Scholastic claims about causality.  The burden of proof is rather on the critic to show that there really is any incompatibility.  (Few people would claim that the burden of proof is on anyone to prove that quantum mechanics doesn’t establish idealism, or doesn’t undermine the law of excluded middle, or doesn’t refute scientific realism.  It is generally realized that the claims in question here are very large ones that go well beyond anything quantum mechanics itself can be said to establish, so that the burden of proof is on anyone who wants to claim quantum mechanics has such sweeping implications.  So why is the burden of proof on the Scholastic to show that quantum mechanics doesn’t undermine causality?)

In particular, the critic owes us an account of why, since physics cannot in principle capture all there is to physical reality in the first place -- and in particular arguably fails entirely (as Russell held) to capture causality in general -- we should regard it as especially noteworthy if it fails to capture causality in one particular case.  If the critic, like the early Russell, denies that there is any causality at all, he owes us an account of how he can coherently take such a position, and in particular how he can account for our knowledge of the world physics tells us about if we have no causal contact with it.  If the critic says instead that genuine causality does exist in some parts of nature but not in the particular cases he thinks quantum mechanics casts doubt on, he owes us an account of why we should draw the line where he says we should, and how there could be such a line.  (As we had reason to note recently with respect to PSR, it is difficult to see how it could be coherent to think that things are in principle explicable in some cases while denying that they are in general explicable in principle.  Yet to affirm the principle of causality in some cases and deny it in others seems similarly incoherent.) 

In short, anyone who claims that quantum mechanics undermines Scholastic metaphysical claims about causality owes us an alternative worked-out metaphysical picture before we should take him seriously (just as anyone who would claim that quantum mechanics undermines the law of excluded middle owes us an alternative system of logic if we are to take him seriously).  And if he gives us one, it would really be that metaphysical system itself, rather than quantum mechanics per se, that is doing the heavy lifting.

Now, no one expects a logician to launch into a mini treatise on quantum mechanics before setting forth a textbook exposition of classical logic, law of excluded middle and all.  The reason is that it is widely understood that it is just false to say flatly that “Quantum mechanics has undermined classical logic.”  Quantum mechanics has done no such thing.  Rather, some people have been led by their metaphysical speculations about quantum mechanics to wonder whether logic might be rewritten without the law of excluded middle.  Logicians who have independent grounds to think that the law of excluded middle cannot be false have no reason to take these speculations very seriously or respond in detail to them when going about their ordinary work.

Similarly, there is no reason why a Scholastic metaphysician should be expected to launch into a detailed discussion of quantum mechanics before deploying the principle of causality in a general metaphysical context, or when giving an argument for the existence of God.  For it is also simply false to say that “Quantum mechanics has undermined the principle of causality.”  It has done no such thing.  The most that one can say is that some people have been led by their metaphysical speculations about quantum mechanics to wonder whether metaphysics might be rewritten in a way that does without the principle of causality.  But metaphysicians who have independent grounds to think that the principle of causality cannot be false have no reason to take these speculations very seriously or to respond in detail to them when going about their ordinary work.

Of course, logicians have examined proposed non-classical systems of logic, and classical logicians have put forward criticisms of these alternative systems.  The point is that their doing so is not a prerequisite of their being rationally justified in using classical logic.  Similarly, a Scholastic metaphysician, especially if he is interested in questions about philosophy of nature and philosophy of physics, can and should address questions about how to interpret various puzzling aspects of quantum mechanics.  But the point is that doing so is not a prerequisite to his being rationally justified in appealing to the principle of causality in general metaphysics or in presenting a First Cause argument for the existence of God.

But how might a Scholastic interpret phenomena like radioactive decay?  I hinted at one possible approach in the post on Oerter linked to above, an approach which is suggested by the way some Scholastic philosophers have thought about local motion.  Some of these thinkers, and Aquinas in particular, take the view that a substance can manifest certain dispositions in a “spontaneous” way in the sense that these manifestations simply follow from its nature or substantial form.  A thing’s natural tendencies vis-à-vis local motion would be an example.  These motions simply follow from the thing’s substantial form and do not require a continuously conjoined external mover.  Now, that is not to say that the motion in question does not have an efficient cause.  But the efficient cause is just whatever generated the substance and thus gave it the substantial form that accounts (qua formal cause) for its natural local motion.  (It is commonly but erroneously thought that medieval Aristotelians in general thought that all local motion as such required a continuously conjoined cause.  In fact that was true only of some of these thinkers, not all of them.  For detailed discussion of this issue, see James Weisheipl’s book Nature and Motion in the Middle Ages, from which I borrow the language of “spontaneity.”  I also discuss these issues in more detail here.)

Now, Aquinas himself elaborated on this idea in conjunction with the thesis that the “natural place” toward which heavy objects are inclined to move is the center of the earth, and he supposed also that projectile motions required a conjoined mover insofar as he regarded them as “violent” rather than natural.  Both of these suppositions are outmoded, but the more general thesis summarized in the preceding paragraph is logically independent of them and can easily be disentangled from them.  One can consistently affirm (a) that a substance will tend toward a certain kind of local motion simply because of its substantial form, while rejecting the claim that (b) this local motion involves movement toward a certain specific place, such as the center of the earth.  (This is a point missed by one of the more clueless commentators in Cruz-Uribe’s combox, whose capacity for grasping obvious distinctions is not much better than his reading ability.  He ridicules the distinction I make here without offering the slightest explanation of what exactly is wrong with it.) 

Indeed, some contemporary Aristotelians have proposed that affirming (a) while rejecting (b) is the right way to think about inertial motion: Newton’s principle of inertia, on this view, is a description of the way a physical object will tend to behave vis-à-vis local motion given its nature or substantial form.  (Again, see this article for discussion of the relevant literature.)  The point for present purposes, though, is that the idea just described also provides a model -- I don’t say it is the only model, just a model -- for understanding what is going on metaphysically with phenomena like radioactive decay. 

The idea would be this.  Let’s borrow an example from philosopher of science Phil Dowe’s book Physical Causation, since I’ll have reason to return to the use he makes of it in a moment.  Dowe writes:

Suppose that we have an unstable lead atom, say Pb210.  Such an atom may decay, without outside interference, by α-decay into the mercury atom Hg206.  Suppose the probability that the atom will decay in the next minute is x.  Then

                        P(E|C) = x

where C is the existence of the lead atom at a certain time t1, and E is the production of the mercury atom within the minute immediately following t1.  (pp. 22-23)

Now, applying the conceptual apparatus borrowed from Aquinas (which, I should add, Dowe himself does not do), we can say that the decay in question is “spontaneous” in something like the way Aquinas thought the natural local motion of a physical substance is “spontaneous.”  In particular, given the nature or substantial form of Pb210, there is a probability of x that it will decay in the next minute.  The probability is not unintelligible, but grounded in what it is to be Pb210 .  The decay thus has a cause in the sense that (i) it has a formal cause in the nature or substantial form of the particular Pb210 atom, and (ii) it has an efficient cause in whatever it was that originally generated that Pb210 atom (whenever that was). 

It is worth noting that you don’t need to be a Scholastic to think that there really is causation in cases like this, which brings me to Dowe’s own use of this example.  As Dowe notes, even if it is claimed that decay phenomena are incompatible with deterministic causality, it doesn’t follow that there is no causality at all in such cases.  All that would follow is that the causality is not deterministic.  In defense of the claim that there is causality of at least an indeterministic sort in cases like the one he cites, he writes:

If I bring a bucket of Pb210 into the room, and you get radiation sickness, then doubtless I am responsible for your ailment.  But in this type of case, I cannot be morally responsible for an action for which I am not causally responsible.  Now the causal chain linking my action and your sickness involves a connection constituted by numerous connections like the one just described.  Thus the insistence that C does not cause E on the grounds that there’s no deterministic link entails that I am not morally responsible for your sickness.  Which is sick.  (p. 23)

Dowe also points out that “scientists describe such cases of decay as instances of production of Hg206… [and] ‘production’ is a near-synonym for ‘causation’” (p. 23).  This sounds paradoxical only if we fallaciously conflate deterministic causality and causality as such.

Interestingly, elsewhere in his book, Dowe argues that Newton’s first law should be interpreted as entailing, not that a body’s uniform motion has no cause, but rather that its inertia, conceived of as a property of a body, is its cause (pp. 53-54).  This dovetails with the analysis of inertial motion given by some contemporary Aristotelians, to which I alluded above.  John Losee, in his book Theories of Causality, discusses Dowe’s views and notes the parallel between what Dowe says about radioactive decay and what he says about inertia (p. 126).  The parallel, I would say (using notions neither Dowe nor Losee appeal to), is this: In both cases, Dowe is describing the way a thing will “spontaneously” tend to behave given its nature or substantial form (albeit the manifestation of the tendency is probabilistic in the case of Pb210 but not in the case of inertial motion). 

So, Dowe’s views seem to some extent to recapitulate the elements of the Aquinas-inspired account of radioactive decay sketched above, which I earlier put forward in the post replying to Oerter.  It is worth emphasizing that neither Dowe nor Losee has any Scholastic ax to grind, and that I came across their work long after writing that post -- so as to forestall any objection to the effect that the proposed account is somehow a merely ad hoc way to try to get round the objection from radioactive decay (an objection that would be absurd in any case given that the basic concepts made use of in the proposed account are centuries old).  On the contrary, it is an account that someone could accept whatever his views about Scholastic metaphysics in general, or about the application of the principle of causality to arguments for God’s existence.

In any event, as I have said, the burden of proof is not on the Scholastic metaphysician to provide an account of how radioactive decay can be reconciled with the principle of causality, because claims to the effect that there is an incompatibility are not even well-motivated in the first place.  The burden of proof is rather on the critic of Scholastic metaphysics to develop an alternative metaphysical framework on which the rejection of the principle of causality is defensible, and within which the critic might embed his favored interpretation of quantum mechanics.  But don’t hold your breath.  For the Scholastic has grounds entirely independent of issues about quantum mechanics or radioactive decay to conclude that no such alternative metaphysics is forthcoming. 

483 comments:

  1. Scott: Thanks for the kind words about my blog. Adjacent pages on various issues works!

    Some (I'm thinking particularly of Lloyd Gerson) have raised the question whether forms and essences were ever (in Plato's thought) supposed to be "universals" at all, and concluded that they were probably not. Jeffrey Brower has also been kind enough to send me an unpublished paper of his in which he contends that the medieval "problem of universals" was sufficiently different from the modern problem of the same name that Aquinas can be coherently regarded as a realist by one standard and a nominalist by the other....

    Sounds like some interesting reading, when I have time. That makes intuitive sense. I've always suspected that what Plato meant, what Aristotle meant, what the Medieval followers of Aristotle meant, and what we mean, on some of these issues, are not necessarily the same thing. Even the ancients debated how different from Plato Aristotle really was. The reason I brought nominalism up is that on another blog I've been accused of being a nominalist when I've taken issue with conclusions that my interlocutors were trying to draw from their version of essentialism. Being more or less a Platonist, I obviously have a certain inclination towards essentialism; but it's not as simple as that, as we seem to agree.

    Johnboy: Haven't read Pierce, but what you describe is interesting.

    Distinguished from a nominalism that denies too much or an essentialism that proves too much, most realists, nowadays, are moderate it seems, sufficiently nuanced, whether Thomists, Scotists, Process or such. All of these metaphysical realists seem to converge, whatever their chosen root metaphor. The essentialisms that unrepentant nominalists engage are flimsy caricatures of the highly nuanced scholastic versions?

    That sounds about right.

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  2. Mr. Green: Sure, because we were all trained to think that everything is “really” just piles of atoms.

    But it is! I disagree with Aristotle here! (Subject to the nuances I've discussed above)

    Dennis, you don't need to cross-post every single response to me here and at Vox Nova. I don't claim to be an expert in Thomism, Aristotlianism, or philosophy in general. I do think I have a reasonable grasp of the Aristotelian concept of teleology; I'm just not sure I agree with all aspects of it, and I have some issues with the phraseology. Critiques of Aristotelian teleology have been made by people who are experts in philosophy, so any ignorance of mine aside, it is possible to disagree with Aristotle.

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  3. "Dennis, you don't need to cross-post every single response to me here and at Vox Nova. I don't claim to be an expert in Thomism, Aristotlianism, or philosophy in general."

    There's no ill intent meant by me to post this here, because what I had suspected comes to be true, and I think the people here can better aid you in your quest, it's for that reason that I posted your comment here, specifically, no other reason, no ill-intent against you. I think I should've added the parts I'll add in this take.

    "I do think I have a reasonable grasp of the Aristotelian concept of teleology; I'm just not sure I agree with all aspects of it, and I have some issues with the phraseology. Critiques of Aristotelian teleology have been made by people who are experts in philosophy, so any ignorance of mine aside, it is possible to disagree with Aristotle."

    This is the main point of issue, and it directly relates with why you cannot understand the formal cause, the modern conception of matter is inherently dead, there is no 'tending towards..' in matter, this is why Daniel brings up things like consciousness in the post he was addressing you, when you're dealing things like intentionality, looking at it from a completely reductionist point of view, matter cannot and does not tend towards anything, no bits of atoms, is 'about' or 'tends' towards anything for that matter(no pun intended), and this is why reductionism for the most part fails to justify the existence of intentionality, now you did say that you were a Platonist about this, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about as of now.

    The 'tending' toward, is inbuilt or is immanent to matter, you say;

    "I'm just not sure I agree with all aspects of it, and I have some issues with the phraseology. Critiques of Aristotelian teleology have been made by people who are experts in philosophy, so any ignorance of mine aside, it is possible to disagree with Aristotle."

    While I do understand that it is possible to disagree, it is however, in fact, almost impossible to disagree coherently while taking on the ontological status of things, that's what I think.

    "Mr. Green: Sure, because we were all trained to think that everything is “really” just piles of atoms.

    But it is! I disagree with Aristotle here! (Subject to the nuances I've discussed above)"

    Aristotle is anything but a reductionist, and you may say that you disagree, but none of your accounting shows that you are disagreeing, Emergent features of the world is basically Aristotle from the back door. Higher level features found in nature are irreducible to its parts. This is the whole point of Aristotelianism. If you really want to understand Aristotelianism, in order to accept or critique it, you have to assess the full system, for which I again recommend Feser's Scholastic Metaphysics in cordial fashion, till then, there's just no point talking about it.

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  4. The idea of "coming into and remaining in being" and "undergoing change" suggests a time order on the states of B

    Thomas used the example of an eternal foot eternally planted in the eternal sand. The eternal foot is still the cause of the eternal footprint, even though no time separates the cause and the effect.

    The statement "B is an event, not a thing", seems to imply that events can't be things.

    https://bearspace.baylor.edu/Alexander_Pruss/www/papers/Forms.html

    narrows it so much that, for some B, no suitable A can be found.

    Is this the Uncause of the Gaps?

    Of course, Thomas agrees that not everything has a cause: Summa contra gentiles II.52.5

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  5. Mr. Green: Sure, because we were all trained to think that everything is “really” just piles of atoms.

    Tumarion: But it is! I disagree with Aristotle here!


    In his 1947 article on science and complexity--
    http://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~tas110/Teaching/Lectures/L1/Material/WEAVER1947.pdf
    -- Warren Weaver identified three levels of complexity;
    a) simplicity. A few factors with simple deterministic relationships among them. 18th and 19th century physics, for example. Mathematical analysis can deal with this.
    b) disorganized complexity. Many factors operating independently. Averages can be substituted for information on each unit and statistical methods employed in place of mathematics. Thermodynamics and life insurance are examples.
    c) organized complexity. Many factors varying simultaneously in interconnected ways, as in many cases of biology and sociology. Neither analytical mathematics nor statistical methods are sufficient, and Weaver suggested the then-new methods of operations research and computer modeling.

    Now, the "heap" advocates believe stuff exists only at complexity b). Others, however, note that some things are at complexity c). In his Nobel lecture, von Hayek put it this way:
    [T]he character of the structures showing [organized complexity] depends not only on the properties of the individual elements of which they are composed, and the relative frequency with which they occur, but also on the manner in which the individual elements are connected with each other. In the explanation of the working of such structures we can for this reason not replace the information about the individual elements by statistical information, but require full information about each element if from our theory we are to derive specific predictions about individual events. Without such specific information about the individual elements we shall be confined to what on another occasion I have called mere pattern predictions - predictions of some of the general attributes of the structures that will form themselves, but not containing specific statements about the individual elements of which the structures will be made up.
    -- Friedrich August von Hayek, "The Pretence of Knowledge"


    The reader will note that quantum mechanics is not a question of lack of causation, but a lack of "full information about each element" as per Heisenberg. Specific predictions in cases of organized complexity are not possible without such information, as Heisenberg himself took notice of.

    Some readers will also notice that in talking about
    a) "the individual elements of which they are composed," and
    b) "the manner in which the individual elements are connected with each other"
    Hayek has ably noted the hylomorphic nature of systems of organized complexity, since a) is precisely "matter" in the Aristotelian sense and b) is the form of the system.

    In any case, c)-level systems have a claim to be "things" (substances, ouisia) while b)-level stuff are only heaps.

    Hope this helps.

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  6. Oops. Full text of Hayek's speech is here:
    http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/1974/hayek-lecture.html#not1

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  7. Dennis, I'm not reductionist in regard to mind--if you look upthread, I've explicitly said that. Physics and chemistry are not sufficient to account for mind. They may not be sufficient to account for life. I've said that, too.

    Having said that, I do think that most phenomena aside from mind (and possibly life) are reducible to sub-atomic phenomena. Color, for example, boils down to the frequency of light emitted by an object, which is a result of the behavior of its valence electrons. As I said in discussing this with Scott above, there may indeed be some blurry lines as to whether a given phenomenon is reducible or not. Generally, I'd tend to lean towards the reductionist side; others would do the opposite. I don't think it's a strict either/or, though.

    Generally, since the Renaissance, formal and final cause have tended to be either rejected completely or understood as more or less tautological. Greater minds than mine have argued in favor of this. They may be wrong; or they may be right. I'm in the middle. I don't reject teleology completely; I'm just not sure that Aristotle's account of it is the best way to go.

    Having said that, I don't object to an in-depth study of Aristotelian-Thomist philosophy, but the demands on my time are such that such in simply not feasible. Therefore we'll have to leave it at saying that maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and maybe I do; but we're not going to be able to get a resolution here in a combox.

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  8. TheOFloinn, if you take "the manner in which the elements are connected with each other" (the sharing of valence electrons, the various interacting forces, the energy content, etc. etc.) as the "form" of the higher level object--that is, form as pattern--I think I'd be OK with that.

    The issue I have--and it's possible that we're talking past each other--is this: If you imagine a vastly complicated machine--a space shuttle, a nuclear power plant, a computer--it contains thousands, perhaps millions, of individual components. One might say that the form of the shuttle, power plant, etc. is the way the parts are put together and interact, producing emergent properties (going into space, producing electricity, making posts like this via the Internet) that are not part of the components (such as a bolt or the plastic in the mouse I'm using)

    However, the bolt or mouse doesn't cease to be a bold or mouse; and even if I don't disassemble the space shuttle or power plant or computer, I can clearly see the constituent parts. What some Aristotelians seem to me to be saying (Adler certainly did) is that when the atoms join together they cease to exist except as a potential. In short, if you could see down to a subatomic level, you'd perceive a uniform substance, seeing atoms and molecules only if they were splintered off.

    This would appear to be absurd. Just because the bold participates in a larger whole (the power plant), with respect to which it might be seen as the matter which is informed by the design of the plant, it doesn't magically lose its "bolt-ness" and become invisible. Even better, despite the fact that my cells are participants in the larger whole with the form of "human", I can still see them microscopically as individual (though interrelated) units.

    Now maybe I've misunderstood what is being said here. Maybe the assertion about atoms is that they don't randomly jostle into a thing, but that they connect in a very specific way which might be called the "form" of that larger whole. Thus, while they exist, and are perceptible, one deals with the whole, not the part; just as one wouldn't view somebody as a "heap of cells". If this is what's being said, then I have no problem with it.

    I do think it's unclear as to the exact extent that so-called emergent properties are truly irreducible to lower-level properties of particles, and to what extent the emergent properties are just highly complex combinations of lower-level properties (see what I said to Scott about color upthread). As I've said several times, though, I'm not a reductionist: I think mind and (possibly) life itself are irreducible. I just a little leery positing too much irreducibility of other phenomena, though as I said, there are lots of blurred lines.

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  9. "Dennis, I'm not reductionist in regard to mind--if you look upthread, I've explicitly said that. Physics and chemistry are not sufficient to account for mind. They may not be sufficient to account for life. I've said that, too. "

    "...matter cannot and does not tend towards anything, no bits of atoms, is 'about' or 'tends' towards anything for that matter(no pun intended), and this is why reductionism for the most part fails to justify the existence of intentionality, now you did say that you were a Platonist about this, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about as of now."

    I see what I've said, I've explicitly stated, that you whether you were a reductionist or a Platonist had nothing to do with the *view*...

    "Having said that, I don't object to an in-depth study of Aristotelian-Thomist philosophy, but the demands on my time are such that such in simply not feasible. Therefore we'll have to leave it at saying that maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and maybe I do; but we're not going to be able to get a resolution here in a combox."

    With that I'll end this conversation, and let other people deal with what you are having problems with and bid you good day.

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  10. @Turmarion:

    "Color, for example, boils down to the frequency of light emitted by an object, which is a result of the behavior of its valence electrons."

    On the general subject of color: Anna Marmodoro has a nice paper in which she argues that an object really has all of the various colors with which it appears to observers. It doesn't have anything to do directly with reductionism; it's just a good read and I like recommending it.

    However, if she's right (or if any of several other candidate views is right), then the precise shade of red with which this apple appears to me is actually in some way part of the apple, as is the slightly different shade of red with which it appears to you under slightly different ambient conditions.

    It's not easy to see how those qualia could be simply reducible to frequencies of light, although there's surely a strong connection between them. And if those qualia really do belong to the apple itself in some way, then they're genuinely and objectively colors of the apple and not just features of subjective experience.

    If so, then in agreeing that mind isn't reducible to physics and chemistry, we may have to acknowledge that color isn't either.

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  11. However, the bolt or mouse doesn't cease to be a bold or mouse; and even if I don't disassemble the space shuttle or power plant or computer, I can clearly see the constituent parts.

    a) A space shuttle was an artifact and so has only an artificial form, not a natural form.

    b) That a mouse is composed of various parts is elementary. These are what is called the material cause of the mouse.

    This is useful
    http://home.comcast.net/~icuweb/c02002.htm#4

    as is this
    http://home.comcast.net/~icuweb/c02003.htm#6

    The matter of a sodium atom and of a chlorine atom is the same: protons, electrons, neutrons. What gives each its different powers and makes them intelligible is the number and arrangement of those parts; i.e., their forms.

    For inanimate objects, this is relatively straightforward. For animate bodies, the issue is more complex. A recently dead mouse has all the same matter as it had when previously alive; yet it is not "in motion" and the carcass is really no more than a heap. It behaves merely as a bag of chemicals.

    The living mouse is also a bag of chemicals, but it is not only a bag of chemicals, since the live mouse acts in ways that the chemicals would not otherwise act.

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  12. Hi Turmarion,

    More input for your resident amateur. :)

    From Scholastic Metaphysics page 164 "The basic idea is that a natural object is one whose characteristic behavior - the ways in which it manifests either stability or changes of various sorts - derives from something intrinsic to it. A non-natural object is one which does not have such an intrinsic principle of its characteristic behavior."

    Page 165 "Now the difference between that which has such an intrinsic principle of operation and that which does not is essentially the difference between something having a substantial form and something having a merely accidental form."

    So plants, animals, and human beings obviously have intrinsic principles of operation. That is why the discussion of causal powers is important in determining a substance. It has to be an intrinsic causal power though. A space ship does not have any natural tendency to be a space ship. It is completely imposed from human skill and so is accidental.

    That said, human skill can produce substantial forms. For example, one could chemically product water in a lab. An argument can be made that even some completely unnatural things, like Styrofoam could have a substantial form, if you follow Eleonore Stump's definition of a substance: "Stump's rationale is that it seems to be essential to a thing's having a substantial form that it has properties and causal powers that are irreducible to those of its parts." (Scholastic Metaphysics page 168)

    You have already talked about this aspect of substantial forms with Scott, I think. But maybe you were not aware of the first part. At least with regard to what you were discussing with TheOFloinn in your last post.

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  13. Scott, I agree re qualia--I don't think they're reducible to material phenomena as such. I'm not sure "where" they are, though--different creatures with different visual apparatuses will see the apple differently--some will see it as red, others as gray, etc. I'm not sure I'd locate the qualia "in" the apple; but it seems a problem to put them "in" the mind, because then different minds have different qualia for the same thing. That's a tough question.

    The OFlorinn:
    The matter of a sodium atom and of a chlorine atom is the same: protons, electrons, neutrons. What gives each its different powers and makes them intelligible is the number and arrangement of those parts; i.e., their forms.


    Well, yeah; but the particles are still there. Even in the living mouse, the cells are still discernible. I think we're still talking semantics.

    FWIW, this discusses the specific issue and identifies the Adler book in question. I disagree with the author as to living things, but he makes what I think is a valid point. Adler says, according to the website author, that the leg of a table, for example, is only "virtual" as long as it's attached to the table, since the table is an integrated whole. This, to me, is odd, as it's evident that the table has legs. I see what he's getting at, but it seems like a semantic game. I had thought he meant that you wouldn't see the individual atoms if you could see that small, but in light of this, maybe that's not what he meant.

    In some ways, this is almost like arguing the old Buddhist view that "chariot" is just the convenient term we use for the interconnection of all the constituent pieces.

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  14. "chariot" is just the convenient term we use for the interconnection of all the constituent pieces.

    Sure. A chariot is an artifact.

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  15. Anonymous, I'd agree with you re living things. Re the non-living, I'm not so sure. It seems to me that a rock's forms are accidental forms, with the substantial forms inhering in the subatomic particles, as I discussed with Dr. Feser above.

    An argument can be made that even some completely unnatural things, like Styrofoam could have a substantial form, if you follow Eleonore Stump's definition of a substance: "Stump's rationale is that it seems to be essential to a thing's having a substantial form that it has properties and causal powers that are irreducible to those of its parts."

    That's exactly what I meant when I said that things get blurry. It comes down, as is pointed out here, to definitions. It's also unclear to me, as I discussed with Scott, in which cases and to what extent it can be said that the properties of a whole are irreducible to those of its parts. I'm not necessarily saying that forms don't exist, or that one can't speak of various "causes". I'm just saying that I don't think they give a complete and completely clear and unambiguous account of the world. That's all.

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  16. Agreed. Even in Ed's book, he seems to present more than one view of what a substantial form is. Until such issues are, more or less, resolved, we can't expect the scientific community to accept this way of classifying things.

    That said, the current paradigm, although clearer, seems to completely ignore the issue. That can't be right. Or at least, push it off as an irrelevant non-scientific question. Although they may be right about it being a non-scientific issue, I don't think it is irrelevant.

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  17. @Turmarion:

    "I'm not sure 'where' they are, though--different creatures with different visual apparatuses will see the apple differently--some will see it as red, others as gray, etc."

    Yeah, and under different ambient conditions, the object can even appear different colors to the very same observer. That's pretty much the problem Marmodoro is addressing the paper to which I linked.

    One thing on which most/all Aristotelian and/or Thomistic accounts will agree is that the color(s) must somehow be present in the object in at least a causal sense: to say that an apple appears red is in effect to say that the apple has a causal power or potency to bring about an experience of red in certain observers under certain conditions and is thus somehow "targeted" toward red.

    (In fact that's relevant for another reason: it's also an example of the sort of thing Aristotelians and Thomists mean by "teleology" at the physical level. It doesn't mean that the apple somehow "wants" to be red; it just means that there's something about the apple that has a tendency to bring about experiences of redness. We even have a pretty good idea what that is.)

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  18. @Turmarion

    "However, the bolt or mouse doesn't cease to be a bold or mouse; and even if I don't disassemble the space shuttle or power plant or computer, I can clearly see the constituent parts. What some Aristotelians seem to me to be saying (Adler certainly did) is that when the atoms join together they cease to exist except as a potential. In short, if you could see down to a subatomic level, you'd perceive a uniform substance, seeing atoms and molecules only if they were splintered off."

    I'm going back on what I said for a little as I write this, however, could you please tell us as to how or what you understand by physical intentionality?

    TheOFloinn writes...
    "The matter of a sodium atom and of a chlorine atom is the same: protons, electrons, neutrons. What gives each its different powers and makes them intelligible is the number and arrangement of those parts; i.e., their forms."

    Needless to say that what you mentioned were artifacts, pay real close attention here, those artifacts could not even have been made, if it was not using a parcel of matter that is able to take on the designated form. This is pretty much it, the bolt or the mouse could be made up of a different parcel of matter in opposition to the space shuttle, however, they would still show for the most part the same kind of physical intentionality, but not totally, that being said. If the bolt, the mouse, and the spaceship were made of the same parcel of matter, all of these three things have a thing in common, which we come to call the substantial form. This substantial form is being actualized in the case of the mouse, the bolt and the spaceship, albeit in different shapes, however, what they have in common is a substantial form, and this substantial form is used by the designer or the engineer to impose an artificial use, and thus, neither the mouse, the space shuttle, nor the bolt is a new form, but a re-purposing or usage of the available form from their respective parcels of matter.

    Now, Scott, TheOFloinn and Daniel, have made extremely crucial distinctions, I would go on to say, that in the case of the Styrofoam, where the thing is irreducible to it's parts.

    While I do agree that substantial forms exist. No essentialist claims that it is easy to figure out what the essence of a substance is, that is a mere caricature, and I am not suggesting that you are doing it, it is that we acknowledge this, and that though this may be the case, ontologically, it is absolutely necessary, and for the most an unavoidable reality that things are irreducible to its parts.

    Let's take H2O for instance, suppose you remove Hydrogen, or Oxygen(H2O), does 'water', cease to function or display the physical intentionality of what we call, 'water'? No. Do Hydrogen and Oxygen remain autonomous with different potentia? Yes. When Hydrogen and Oxygen were 'together' in such fashion that a new substance came to be, that which we called 'water', because it displayed a physical intentionality that was irreducible to its parts, in this fashion, it cannot function as the SOURCE of flames in the SAME way or AS FREELY as how oxygen can and evidently does. You can say the autonomy of both oxygen and hydrogen, is restricted in the water, in a way that the autonomy of the bolt or the mouse is not in the space shuttle.

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  19. Turmarion,

    Two quick questions:

    1. Can you say why there is no '-ness' re substantial forms (There is no such thing as "rockness" or "woodness"), yet there is '-ness' re artifacts ([a bolt] doesn't magically lose its "bolt-ness")?

    2. Would a cairn, which is an artifact comprised of stacked stones, have '-ness' or lack '-ness'?

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  20. Edward Feser said...

    Georgi,

    Seriously, did you even read the post you are criticizing? Or did you just scroll through impatiently until you found that one sentence, thinking you'd hit New Atheist polemical gold? ..."



    Georgi didn't miss your points. He was offended at the very idea that you might entertain them.

    Offended, that the order of things he prefers to see ensconced, may be threatened by granting you such unreasonable liberties and dignity.

    "In the real world, as opposed to the abstract one that philosophers like to spend way too much time in, we weigh ideas by the evidence that supports them. If you write at such length attacking scientists on the grounds of how science cannot prove things with absolute certainty, then unconditionally embrace ideas, which are many orders of magnitude less well supported, you cannot expect reasonable people to view you positively."


    See, in so doing you might - by virtue of some unstated train of deductions - consider yourself politically competent to resist certain life-way directives which the expert class (adverting to Garry Wills et al here) might wish to impose.

    "You may be accepting the fact of physical evolution, but the not theory. That's not a science-friendly attitude. The theory matters a lot."

    Respect for, not just acknowledgement of, the theory means a lot. Hallowed be Its Name. A lot! The proper attitude of reverence is also important.

    Now, we cannot say for certain about Georgi himself, but we have seen before that in the Georgi kind's life-world, where "Scientism [is] a good thing" and natural teleology does not exist, things or events may still be said (with a more or less straight face) to be "good". Because, if teleology doesn't exist, at least the "telesis" of a properly managed world where useless thinking is ruled out of order, certainly exists, or will, or something.

    So, purpose is out, unless we need to use the word for the sake of convenience or making sense. It's obsolete. Obsolete as is any sense of irony or the ability to self-audit apparently.

    "When am I going to see a believer apply the same epistemological standards that he applues to science to his own faith? "

    Guess it doesn't apply to science, since scientism is known to be good.

    And sure, talk of epistemological humility is all fine and good as a selling point in introductory science courses. It adds a kind of moral luster to the project. But when it comes to the real business of managing society, the proles will have to learn to settle for probabilities when the state demands that they sacrifice for whatever it is that the guardians of the city deem to be sacrifice worthy.

    It all makes such perfect sense.

    Sort of ... until you think too much about the claims Georgi is actually staking and how they supposedly hang together. Then, subject to the brutality of a dispassionate gaze, they fall apart from an obvious lack of internal coherence despite the weak glue of special pleading. You know, for example :"You forget the cultural context in which such [purpose related] expressions are used. It has only been a century or so since we have had sufficient reasons to abandon teleology, after millenia of complete dominance of the idea, and the message still has not reached the vast majority of people."

    What then, exactly, of Georgi's rhetorical product is left behind as a lasting residue?

    Not much. Histrionics aside, the vague odor of a trollish fascism, mostly.

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  21. TheOFloinn,

    This is a useful essay on the three kinds of scientific investigation:
    http://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~tas110/Teaching/Lectures/L1/Material/WEAVER1947.pdf


    An informative and well-written essay.

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  22. @Scott or Ed
    Have you seen the Capthca pictures of doors and the like with numbers on them? I had them one day (or maybe a few days in a row) too and haven't seen them since. Is it the computer you access the comments from or what?

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  23. @Irish Thomist:

    I see those about half the time. I have one now, in fact.

    I have no idea how CAPTCHA decides what image (or kind of image) to show. It might be based in part on IP address or browser, but I don't know.

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  24. Just a brief comment on a statement of Georgi's, since DNW has quoted it afresh: "You may be accepting the fact of physical evolution, but the not theory. That's not a science-friendly attitude. The theory matters a lot."

    This is wrong in another respect. Anyone who understands the difference between primary and secondary causation has no special difficulty accepting the theory either (assuming it's otherwise well-supported). The fact (if it is one) that evolution via natural selection is a (secondarily) causal process in the physical world is entirely consistent with the fact (if it is one) that God, as primary cause, makes precisely that contingent process occur.

    In other words, if God wants there to be an evolutionary process that results in giraffes, then there will be such a process, even if the process itself doesn't internally "look forward" specifically to the generation of giraffes but might, contingently, have resulted in something else.

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  25. TheOFloinn
    Now, the "heap" advocates believe stuff exists only at complexity b). Others, however, note that some things are at complexity c). In his Nobel lecture, von Hayek put it this way:...

    Really? The carrier of the "price is information" banner argued for irreducibility? Then he managed to soundly refute himself.

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  26. Glenn: 1. Can you say why there is no '-ness' re substantial forms (There is no such thing as "rockness" or "woodness"), yet there is '-ness' re artifacts ([a bolt] doesn't magically lose its "bolt-ness")?

    Unfortunately bad phrasing on my pat. Indeed, there is no more "boltness" than there is "rockness". What I meant to say is that a bolt, even as a part of something else, can still be recognized as a bolt. Adler seemed to be saying that an atom as a constituent part of a piece of matter couldn't even be recognized as an atom--by analogy, as if the instant I put the bolt it, it vanished smoothly into the rest of the apparatus. I'll have to go back and find Ten Philosophical Mistakes because based on the quotes from the website I linked to, I'm not sure now that that was what Adler meant.

    2. Would a cairn, which is an artifact comprised of stacked stones, have '-ness' or lack '-ness'?

    It would have a pattern that its human builder gave it, so if you mean that pattern is "cairn-ness", then yes. If you mean are there any properties of the cairn that don't derive from the constituent rocks, then no.

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  27. Dennis, water is a bad example to support your case. All of of the properties of a water molecule do derive from its constituent parts.

    An oxygen atom has eight protons; therefore it has eight electrons; thus its outer (valence) shell has six electrons, and thus can be completed by two more A hydrogen atom has one proton and thus one electron, and thus one valence electron. The two hydrogens and one oxygen combine exactly because of the properties of each atom--the electrons are covalently shared so that the valence shell of the oxygen averages out as full, and those of the hydrogen average as empty.

    The shape of the water molecule--sort of triangular--is caused by the varying density of electrons in the shared electron cloud, forcing the hydrogen nuclei out to an angle of one hundred five degrees. The shape of the water molecule in turn defines the hexagonal shape of water crystals (and snowflakes). The shape of the water molecules is such that they "fit" only as hexagons.

    At room temperature, the attraction between water molecules is relatively weak, so that they flow over each other, but strong enough that they don't go flying away. This, once more, is because of the electron configuration, and this is why water at room temperature is a liquid.

    I could go on, but I hope its clear that the properties of water derive directly from those of the protons and electrons in the oxygen and hydrogen molecules.

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  28. @Turmarion:

    "I'll have to go back and find Ten Philosophical Mistakes because based on the quotes from the website I linked to, I'm not sure now that that was what Adler meant."

    I have my copy in my hand, and (to my utter lack of surprise) it isn't. Indeed, he specifically states (p. 189), "What exists has more reality that the merely potential and less than the fully actual." In what follows he expressly states that atoms and subatomic particles simply have a different "mode of existence" when they exist discretely from the mode they have when part of (say) a chair. So he's not saying that they exist only potentially, still less that they fail to exist at all.

    I don't find (or recall) any reference at all to the legs of tables, but perhaps I've overlooked it.

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  29. Sorry, the quote from p. 189 should begin, "What exists virtually…"

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  30. @Turmarion:

    "Dennis, water is a bad example to support your case."

    And I'd say that chemical compounds in general aren't good examples to support that case. My own inclination (which is just that, and only that) is to think that water and other chemical compounds do have substantial forms of their own, but when put to the test I honestly have no idea how to distinguish that claim from the supposedly competing claim that water derives all of its properties from those of its constituent elements. Sure, water has properties very different from those of hydrogen and oxygen separately, but what's wrong with saying that (say) "wetness" isn't a property of hydrogen that it manifests when in chemical combination with oxygen, and vice versa?

    Life and mind are another (heh) matter, but let's remember that Turmarion has long ago acknowledged that mind is irreducible and that life might also be so. Arguing about substantial forms at the level of chemical compounds does seem to amount to (or at least degenerate easily into) mere verbal quibbling.

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  31. An oxygen atom has eight protons; therefore it has eight electrons; thus its outer (valence) shell has six electrons etc. etc.

    IOW it is the form or "arrangement" of the constituent elements as a whole that determines the behavior of the oxygen atom in water.

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  32. As to causes, let's talk about cats.

    I have four cats. Lions are cats. So are tigers and cougars. There is a little member of the racoon family that lives in the Southwest which is called a "ringtail cat". There are small carnivores in Australia known as "marsupial cats" or sometimes "native cats".

    Now obviously "cat" is not being used univocally here. My pets are members of the species Felis sylvestris catus. Lions, tigers, cougars, and such are more remote relatives, being members of the common family Felidae, but in the genus Felis. The ringtail cat belongs to the raccoon family (Procyonidae). It is with the cat in the order Carnivora, but aside from a vaguely cat-like appearance and being a fellow carnivore, is not particularly close to it, being in fact more dog-like than cat-like, evolutionarily speaking.

    A marsupial cat is neither a cat nor a carnivore. As a marsupial, it is much more distantly related to cats than even cows and pigs, for example. The marsupial cat and the domestic cat are both mammals and meat eaters, but that's it.

    So what's my point?

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  33. Obviously all these animals are considered as similar in some ways--they're mammals, they're meat-eaters, they have some commonalities in appearance. However everyone would agree that ringtails and native cats are not cats at all, that term being properly reserved for members of the family Felidae. In the strictest sense, on the domestic cat is a "cat", properly so-called.

    Now someone from Mars might be puzzled at why so many obviously different animals are all called "cats". Without the context it would be confusing. For some of the relevant critters, it would probably be better if they were renamed, since it's more confusing than helpful to call a raccoon and a marsupial "cats".

    OK: Obviously, things have tendencies. Things gravitationally attract each other, the wind blows, fire burns, etc. This is what "formal cause" is--informally, the tendency of specific things to do specific things as a result of their nature.

    Obviously, when things interact, there's an end result. A falling rock ends up on the ground; wind moves by convection from a region of one temperature and pressure to another. This is "final" cause--informally, the end result of some process.

    Neither of these causes involves a mind, obviously.

    Now in daily life, when we say "cause", we usually mean what Aristotle would call "efficient cause": the carpenter caused the wood to be made into a chair; the lighting strike caused the tree to catch on fire; one domino caused another to fall; and so on.

    When we call both "efficient" cause and "material cause" (what something's constituent is) or the other two causes "causes", it seems to me it's like calling my pet, a raccoon, and a marsupial all "cats". There are similarities, yes; but the differences seem greater than the similarities.

    Likewise, terms like "purpose", "end", and so on automatically to us moderns imply a mind--somebody wants to do something. I understand that this isn't what's mean by "final cause", necessarily; but the terminology is more obfuscating than helpful.

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  34. Scholastics typically respond by saying, "Well, you've got to understand what Aristotle means by 'cause' in each context." But if we're doing biology, we don't call a whole bunch of different things "cat", regardless of how justified the names might have been when they were originally bestowed on the relevant animals. We use Linnaean binomial nomenclature: Felis catus, Bassariscus astutus, or whatever.

    I think it would be helpful if Aristotelians and Thomists maybe re-tooled the language to present the concepts in a way consonant with modern terminology. If that's not possible to do, then I'd submit that either moderns are totally in the dark (which some modern A-T philosophers seem to think) or there are issues with the philosophy itself that need to be addressed. Does that at least make sense, whether you agree or not?

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  35. OFloinn, the arrangement of the oxygen and hydrogen atoms in a water molecule is necessitated by their individual properties. The pattern of a brick wall is determined by the shape of the bricks--if they weren't flat, but instead spherical, they wouldn't lie in courses. If electrons and protons didn't have the properties they have, they wouldn't form atoms, let alone molecules, in the first place.

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  36. @Scott

    Maybe there is a development to be made in this are of metaphysics? I mean can we not speak of substances on several levels? I think it is possible to avoid a mechanical take on atoms etc. (and what makes them up) that way.

    Then again water does not act like either hydrogen or oxygen qua water. It has a nature so to speak of its own.

    I'm a late comer to this topic - I've only glanced over an odd post or to about hydrogen and water.

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  37. @Turmarion:

    "When we call both 'efficient' cause and 'material cause' (what something's constituent is) or the other two causes 'causes', it seems to me it's like calling my pet, a raccoon, and a marsupial all 'cats'."

    I see your point but I don't think it's quite as bad as all that. If you find yourself with time on your hands, you might enjoy having a look at Jonathan Lear's delightful Aristotle: The Desire to Understand. He does a very nice job of explaining that all of Aristotle's four cases ultimately come down to form (the efficient cause of a house, for example, not really being the builder or architect but the form of the house as present in the understanding of said builder or architect).

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  38. Ay yi yi; as Matthew Sheean likes to say, the typos are strong with me tonight. By "cases" I of course meant "causes."

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  39. ...oh and in before some says it exists virtually.

    I am open to thinking of it like that but I want someone to robustly argue that point against the one I've just raised - mostly because it is a topic and area I am curious as to whether there could/should be a further development.

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  40. the arrangement of the oxygen and hydrogen atoms in a water molecule is necessitated by their individual properties.

    The electron is "individually" a negatively-charged particle and, on its own, would plummet into the positively charged nucleus -- and repel her sister electrons. Similarly, the protons, being all positive, would repel one another as well. Based on the properties of the constituents, atoms can't exist.

    No one claims that the constituent parts have no effect. In fact, material causes are one of the four categories of causes: they are what a thing "is made of" while formal causes are "what makes it" that thing. Every time you try to show how material causes alone are sufficient, you wind up smuggling in some form. That's because matter and form are inseparable among sensible things. As the old motto has it, "Every thing is some thing."

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  41. Scott: [I]'s also an example of the sort of thing Aristotelians and Thomists mean by "teleology" at the physical level. It doesn't mean that the apple somehow "wants" to be red; it just means that there's something about the apple that has a tendency to bring about experiences of redness. We even have a pretty good idea what that is.

    Yes, exactly. That's why I think "telos" or "cause" is a bad word to use here. I don't know Greek well enough to say how "telos" was properly understood. In English, though, I think to use "telos" of an inanimate object obscures more than it reveals. It's just like the little Australian marsupial carnivores. I can see why the settlers called them "cats", but that's also more obfuscating than illuminating, biologically speaking.

    Re Adler, thanks for pointing that out. It was back in the 90's when I read it, so I didn't remember it exactly. I'm not sure I agree with him that the mode of existence of a free atom is different from that of an atom in a chair. That's what I was getting at earlier: the mode of existence of a bolt or a cell seems to me the same whether they're in a space shuttle or a living being, respectively, or in a box of bolts or a Petri dish. Likewise with atoms.

    Also, thank you for getting my argument. You may or may not think water has a substantial form, but you see what I'm saying.

    Life and mind are another (heh) matter, but let's remember that Turmarion has long ago acknowledged that mind is irreducible and that life might also be so.

    Thanks for this, too. Several here keep saying "But what about LIFE? What about MIND?!" How many times to I have to say, "I don't think life and mind are reduceable?" I mean, really! I'm saying that I think for the most part that substantial forms reside at the subatomic level, but I'm moderate in that I don't make that claim for living things or human minds; and I'm even open to the possibility that some macroscopic inanimate things may also have a substantial form.

    I see your point but I don't think it's quite as bad as all that. If you find yourself with time on your hands, you might enjoy having a look at Jonathan Lear's delightful Aristotle: The Desire to Understand.

    I'll put that on my (egregiously long, alas!) reading list.

    OFloinn: The electron is "individually" a negatively-charged particle and, on its own, would plummet into the positively charged nucleus -- and repel her sister electrons.

    No, it wouldn't, because of quantum mechanics. If I put two magnets with their opposite poles near each other, yes, they'd "plummet" into each other. Quantum physics, though, shows that only certain energy states are allowed. Magnet A and Magnet B can be arbitrarily close or distant, or even touching. Electrons, while attracted to protons, must inhabit certain energy states, which is what the various orbitals or shells actually are. If quantum physics weren't true--if the old view of an electron as like a little planet orbiting a sun--then over a long enough period of time its orbit would decay (as would Earth's, given enough time) and it would indeed "plummet into the positively charged nucleus". Given that only certain energy states are allowed, though, this is not possible. The electron orbits the proton out of electrical attraction; but it can't fall into it.

    Now I suppose you could say that the orbital or quantum structure itself is an emergent property of the atom; but I'm not sure that would work, especially since I don't know enough about QM to give a full explanation of the orbital structure.

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  42. @Turmarion:

    "OFloinn, the arrangement of the oxygen and hydrogen atoms in a water molecule is necessitated by their individual properties."

    Since there is no analytical proof of anything of this sort for even the simplest quantum mechanical system (two body problem or the Hydrogen atom) you have to be more clear on what you mean by this.

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  43. OFloinn, I don't think the two-body problem is relevant here. I explained what I meant--the valence shells have to be filled or emptied with electrons because the structure of each atom tends towards completion. The shape of the resulting molecule is caused by the electrical repulsion/attraction of the constituent particles. It's like how the bricks in a wall lie on top of each other because each individual brick has the property of flatness, and the dried mortar has the property of adhesion; not because of "wall-ness".

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  44. Sorry, the last comment should have been directed to grodrigues, not OFloinn.

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  45. Turmarion,

    Actually, from what you wrote, it isn't clear that water is simply reducible to oxygen and hydrogen. Water, as substance, does appear to have distinct properties, that neither oxygen or hydrogen alone, like colour, texture, and so on.

    I don't think it has at all been shown by you that water's properties are reducible to its material and efficient causes.

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  46. It's like how the bricks in a wall lie on top of each other because each individual brick has the property of flatness, and the dried mortar has the property of adhesion; not because of "wall-ness".

    This is not a good analogy; individual bricks don't have "the property of flatness" -- their flatness depends on their orientation and mortar has to be properly applied to make the bricks even in proper orientation lie on top of each other, or its adhesion is irrelevant to the matter. Or, in other words, as even reductionists will often put it, a wall is a collection of parts arranged "wall-wise". Walls are themselves extremely simple aggregate systems, and you only have a wall when you have the system, but their systemic character isn't a property of their parts. Nobody thinks that bricks lie on top of each other because it's a property of bricks and mortar to layer on each other; not even reductionists are committed to that.

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  47. @Jeremy Taylor:

    "I don't think it has at all been shown by you that water's properties are reducible to its material and efficient causes."

    Fair enough, but I also don't think it's been conclusively shown that they're not. And Turmarion's main point is at bottom that in the case of purely physico-chemical "substances," the distinction may not be significant even though (as he acknowledges) it matters a great deal at the higher levels of life and mind.

    I really don't see what all the fuss is about on this point. Surely it's well recognized even within the most hard-line "essentialist" Aristotelian Thomism that it's not at all a simple matter to identify the essence of a physical or chemical "substance," or even to tell whether it's a "substance" at all as opposed to a mere aggregate; that's an empirical question, subject to all the thousand natural doubts that flesh is heir to. Turmarion isn't arguing anything that A-T can't take, indeed hasn't taken, entirely in stride. The rubber doesn't hit the road until we reach at least the level of the vegetative form.

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  48. Remember, too, that Ed has argued and Turmarion has agreed that the argument in question shows, at most, that the basic physico-chemical substances are atoms, or subatomic particles, or whatever turns out to be at the bottom-most level. As far as I can see, absolutely nothing in A-T metaphysics turns on the question of whether a rock is "realer" than its molecules.

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  49. Perhaps Turmarion could restate his issue with Thomism so that we can refocus the discussion. Seems that there has been a lot of agreements being reached...

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  50. The main gripe so far seems to be that the four causes do more to obfuscate than clarify, even if they do, in the end, correspond to the realities being described.

    The counter claim that I often hear is that the language of science is rife with words that seem to exemplify formal causation, final causation, material causation, and efficient causation. Although in an undefined, and perhaps unreflective way.

    Perhaps the language of the four causes, substance, causes actually helps rather than hinders in making sense of this complexity?

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  51. Anonymous: I don't exactly have a "problem" with Thomism (though I'm not a Thomist), but FWIW:

    1. I'm not sure that Aquinas always understood Aristotle correctly.

    2. When applied to humans, A-T essentialism has often tried to use what human nature--the "essence" of humans--to push agendas beyond what I think can legitimately be done. E.g. the concept that some people are "naturally" fit to be slaves, or that women are inferior to men by their essence.

    3. Aristotelian causes and the form/matter, substance/accidents distinctions work well in a broad, rough-and-ready sense. However, I think there are a lot of gray areas. Above, we discussed whether Styrofoam has a substantial form of its own, for example; and there is disagreement as to whether there is a substantial form of water or whether it's just the result of the properties of its constituents.

    A scientific explanation, by contrast, may not be complete--nothing ever is--but it's clear and unambiguous. We can describe water (or Styrofoam) and its properties in great detail, study its molecular structure, find uses for it, etc., without getting hooked into what I regard as a rather pointless debate as to whether there "really" is a substantial form of water qua water.

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  52. Bob, what a world-class jerk you are. After the careful explanations and arguments given you on this thread and others, you post this junk. Please go troll elsewhere.

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  53. Turmarion,

    A scientific explanation, by contrast, may not be complete--nothing ever is--but it's clear and unambiguous.

    I must object to the contrast drawn here. I don't think Thomists would hold that there is a contrast between a metaphysical, Thomistic explanation and a scientific explanation. Rather, I think they would argue the two describe different levels of reality.

    Out of curiosity, how does your metaphysic deal with change?

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  54. I had better write "change and identity"

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  55. “For instance, they might assume that any rationally justifiable claim about the nature of matter simply must be susceptible of formulation in the mathematical language of physics”

    You can help bridge this gap by getting into the nature of zero (‘0’) and one (‘1’) and then proceeding by analogy. Physicists and mathematicians might then be able to grasp the analogy between one and being on one hand and zero, nothing, not-being or non-existence on the other. They might start doing some philosophy by wondering what is the logical relation between these things in the sense of priority (e.g., what comes first, something-ness or one-ness?) Going a further step, you can also make an analogy between the possible and the impossible and contradiction. Once you are talking about that, then the physicist or mathematician might understand that you are talking about nature or reality at a more fundamental level than physics or math and appreciate the difference.

    As for confusion about atoms, recall that Newton treats particles only qua body and not qua their matter. Presumably a particle of this-such-stuff with the same size and shape as another made of something else will not act or react the same; but as a particle or as a body in the abstract it will. Presumably some kinds of matter are more susceptible to gravitational pull or generating gravity itself.

    Protons, for instance, have a positive electric charge (if I recall my basic chemistry correctly) not because they are spheres or small or whatever but because of whatever it is they are made of (otherwise every body would necessarily have a positive electric charge, which clearly can’t be the case on the atomic theory model given electrons and neutrons).

    Finally, we should not forget that even in cases where things are always “just like that” that we still need to seek the reasons why it is always “just like that”.

    For instance, the atom bomb was in principle impossible (“splitting the atom” was supposed to be a contradiction and something per se impossible) until nuclear physics developed and was discovered quite by accident. Therefore if we fail to ask the reasons why such things are always like this (e.g., why atomic particles are always of such and such i. size or ii. shape) then we might infer a fallacious necessity on matter that actually restricts our possibility of material development.

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  56. John West: Well, what does the substance/accidents or form/matter distinction tell you about inanimate matter that's actually useful? With living things and mind, I think it's very useful, because there you have a level of reality beyond the mere physical and chemical, and which needs to be accounted for. With water or Styrofoam or rocks and such, what does Aristotelian theory have to say that's useful? We could argue all day (have been arguing all day, in fact) as to whether water has a substantial form of its own or not; but even if we agreed, what do we end up with? We say it has a substantial form (or not); but if we actually want to know anything about it, we have to observe it or scientifically analyze it.

    To put it another way, I think aspects of Aristotle's philosophy are trying to do stuff that is better done with chemistry or physics, and some here see that as an inappropriate encroachment by science. In regard to the inanimate, at least, I don't see it that way.

    Out of curiosity, how does your metaphysic deal with change?

    Well, it obviously happens; but I'm not sure I see what you're asking.

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  57. @Turmarion:

    "I explained what I meant--the valence shells have to be filled or emptied with electrons because the structure of each atom tends towards completion."

    For starters, let us stick to the simplest non-trivial quantum mechanical problem, the two-body problem. You open a quantum mechanics book on the relevant chapter and what do you see? The Schroedinger equation for a central Coulomb potential proportional to 1/r^2. From *this* you derive the shell structure; and then you have to introduce all sorts of perturbative corrections to take into account all sorts of phenomena. The many body problems for other atoms are even more complicated and intractable and to squeeze something out of it, all sorts of *phenomenological* considerations enter into it. It is not like the valence structure drops in your lap from the theory. So no, I do not know in what exact sense you mean that "the arrangement of the oxygen and hydrogen atoms in a water molecule is necessitated by their individual properties" as taken strictly, this *cannot* be correct, because one electron in one side of the galaxy and a proton on the other do not an Hydrogen atom make.

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  58. Timocrates: Once you are talking about that, then the physicist or mathematician might understand that you are talking about nature or reality at a more fundamental level than physics or math and appreciate the difference.

    No objection there.

    As for confusion about atoms, recall that Newton treats particles only qua body and not qua their matter. Presumably a particle of this-such-stuff with the same size and shape as another made of something else will not act or react the same; but as a particle or as a body in the abstract it will.

    Not quite sure what you're saying here.

    Presumably some kinds of matter are more susceptible to gravitational pull or generating gravity itself.

    No; all matter generates gravity, by definition. Gravity is always positive (attractive), except hypothetically for so-called "exotic matter", for which it would be repulsive (though exotic matter has never been proved even to exist). The amount of gravity generated depends solely on an object's mass. How strongly it pulls on another object depends solely on the objects' masses, their distance, and the gravitational constant G, which never changes (hence, "constant").

    Protons, for instance, have a positive electric charge (if I recall my basic chemistry correctly) not because they are spheres or small or whatever but because of whatever it is they are made of....

    Protons consist of two up quarks, each with a charge of +2/3, and one down quark, with a charge of -1/3, for a total charge of +4/3 -1/3, or +3/3, or just +1. As far as we can tell, quarks, the gluons that hold them together, and electrons cannot be broken into simpler constituent parts. Their properties just "are"; or if you want to put it differently, the substantial form of, say, an up quark is that it has a charge of +2/3, a mass of between 1.8 and 3.0 MeV/c^2, and so on.

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  59. grodrigues: [O]ne electron in one side of the galaxy and a proton on the other do not an Hydrogen atom make.

    Of course not; but any electron combined withe any proton will always behave the same--same orbital structure, etc. Even with more complicated atoms, an atom of iron always behaves like any other atom of iron; and the ultimate thing that makes it what it is is the number of protons and electrons, and the shell configuration.

    Beyond that, as I've said before, I make no claim to have a deep understanding of QM--it's not my training. My point was just that I don't see how you need to invoke a substantial form of water to explain why water acts as it does, when this is sufficiently explained by the atoms and associated quantum phenomena.

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  60. A scientific explanation, by contrast, may not be complete--nothing ever is--but it's clear and unambiguous.

    As John West notes, this is dubious at best. Almost all explanations admit of both realist and anti-realist interpretations, and the ones that are most needed for analyzing things into their constituents -- e.g., explanations in quantum mechanics -- have the most interpretations. There is no real sense in which scientific explanations are particularly likely to be "clear" and "unambiguous"; they are highly ambiguous and often unclear. The actual value of scientific explanations is the one you fall back on in response to John West; they are useful for doing things.

    But nobody here thinks that the option is Aristotelian account or scientific explanation; that would be very unAristotelian.

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  61. Turmarion,

    Well, what does the substance/accidents or form/matter distinction tell you about inanimate matter that's actually useful?

    How do you define useful?

    We could argue all day (have been arguing all day, in fact) as to whether water has a substantial form of its own or not; but even if we agreed, what do we end up with?

    If by “we agreed” you mean that people arrive at a decisive conclusion, then presumably with the truth about whether water has a substantial form of its own or not. Perhaps, however, this sentence is not an appeal to skepticism and I have misread it.

    I assume, at least, you don't mean to suggest people here would just arbitrarily agree.

    Well, it obviously happens; but I'm not sure I see what you're asking.

    Well, how do you account for maintenance of identity over time? Endurance, perdurance, etc.?

    If I understand correctly, the act/potency solution to the problem of identity and change is at the core of Aristotelian and Thomistic philosophy. As a result, since you seem to reject many elements of Aristotelian philosophy (I have no way of knowing which), I thought it worth inquiring how you deal with the so-called problem of identity and change.

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  62. Scott,

    Wasn't Turmarion's point that all substances, except the mind and living things, can be reduced to their atomic constituents?

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  63. @Turmarion:

    (my emphasis)

    "but any electron combined withe any proton will always behave the same--same orbital structure, etc. Even with more complicated atoms, an atom of iron always behaves like any other atom of iron; and the *ultimate thing that makes it what it is is the number of protons and electrons, and the shell configuration*."

    Read again what you yourself have written. You have just invoked (though not by so many letters) "substantial form of Hydrogen to explain why Hydrogen acts as it does".

    I am not sure what you intend with the first sentence, but that an electron and a proton, in favorable conditions, will always behave in the same way, e.g. make up an Hydrogen atom, is itself a law of nature, which in AT speak is the laws of natures, in this case the natures of the electron and proton, etc.

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  64. It might be worth pointing out, as a side note, that while all of us have been talking about the 'Aristotelian' account of forms, the only account of substantial forms that has actually been addressed in any way is the specifically Thomistic account. Nothing that has been said affects the Scotistic account of substantial forms, for instance, which is less strict about how substantial forms are to be understood. But the Scotist account has as much right to be considered a genuine Aristotelian option as the Thomist account.

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  65. Jeremy Taylor,

    I may be missing something. But in his earlier comments, Turmarion wrote to Ed:

    Life, broadly speaking, may or may not be fully reducible to physical phenomena. I incline towards saying that it's not, but I'm rather agnostic about that question, since I think we don't have enough understanding of it right now. I would assert that for nonliving things, and for those properties of living things not directly pertaining to their life, all properties are reducible to subatomic phenomena, and that thus there is no substantial form of "rockness", for example.

    Though, he has since your previous post re-summarized and phrased it in more pragmatic terms.

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  66. @Jeremy Taylor:

    "Wasn't Turmarion's point that all substances, except the mind and living things, can be reduced to their atomic constituents?"

    Not quite; his point, as I take it, is that he doesn't see any way to tell the difference between a physico-chemical "substance"'s having a substantial form and the same substance's properties being reducible to those of its constituents, and so he doesn't see what talk of "forms" adds to our understanding of physics and chemistry.

    But let's suppose otherwise. Vegetative, sensitive, and rational forms/souls aren't at issue here; what is it about Aristotelianism/Thomism that stands or falls according to whether physico-chemical "forms" are substantial as opposed to merely accidental or altogether unreal?

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  67. @Turmarion:

    And while I am at it, here is a quibble on technical matters:

    "The amount of gravity generated depends solely on an object's mass."

    This is not quite correct as it depends on the matter model. The components T_ij of the stress-energy in GR for i, j != 0 represent the flux of i-momentum across the surphace of constant x_i. So for example, for a perfect fluid you will have pressure terms in the diagonal.

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  68. John, if metaphysics gives me a compelling reason to believe that I am more than just the assembly of atoms--and I think it does--that's useful because it tells me something about myself (i.e. I have an immaterial soul) which will have implications for my behavior, interactions with others, etc. If science learns about how my body works, that's useful in that it might be used to improve my health. If science tells me the boiling and freezing points of water, its crystal structure, etc., that information is useful, for obvious reasons.

    If we could agree that there is a substantial form of "water", though, then what? It doesn't tell me something about water that will change my perspective on its place in the world (as learning that I'm not just a heap of atoms or a talking monkey would), nor does it tell me anything about how I can use water. It doesn't seem metaphysically or physically useful. I could certainly get along with the form/matter view of water better than I could without knowledge of its properties!

    I'm not skeptical about the form of water, BTW--as I've discussed, I don't think there is one, since all its properties derive from the lower levels. More generally, I'd describe myself not as a skeptic but as a Zetetoc or Pyrrhonian. That is, I think there is a truth, and that we do the best we can to get to it; but I don't think we can ever do so perfectly. Thus, we must not hold our beliefs too tightly, and always be open to change. In this regard, I'm also sympathetic to the Jain notion of syādvāda.

    As to change: From the point of view of General Relativity, change could be seen to be an illusion. I am not really a three-dimensional being passing through time. I am actually a four dimensional being in spacetime, forming a long ensemble called a world line.

    Analogy: I put thousands of dots adjacent and slightly overlapping to form a line. If we imagine that the dots have consciousness and can perceive only along the line, then Dot 1 thinks it "moves" into the position of Dot 2; which "moves" into Dot 3; and so on. Any given dot thinks it is its "present" self; the previous dots, which it can't see, are its "past"; and the following dots, which it also can't see, are its "future".

    Analogy 2: We see a movie and the images move and change. We know, however, that it's really thousands of still images being moved past a light to give an illusion of motion. If you unrolled the film, you'd have one long whole (a world line) made up of many still images.

    Therefore, from a 4-D perspective, I'm one long 4-D object, unchanging and motionless in spacetime. For reasons that are unclear, my consciousness is forced to "move"--or better, perceive--along the 4th axis (that of time). I therefore perceive change and motion, when in fact there is none. There's no issue about personal identity through time, since I'm already everywhere along every point of my life. I just can't see it, since I'm confined in my perceptions.

    In short, maybe Parmenides and Zeno were right, after all.

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  69. grodrigues: Re gravity and mass, I was simplifying. I'm a math major, not a physics major, and in any case I'm trying to keep it simple. The point is that Timocrates seemed to be saying that different kinds of matter experience gravity differently, and I was taking issue with that.

    You have just invoked (though not by so many letters) "substantial form of Hydrogen to explain why Hydrogen acts as it does".

    I've said this before: If you want to call the pattern of one electron, one proton, and the electron shell structure the "substantial form of hydrogen", then I have no objection to that; but that seems to be semantic and doesn't seem to me to add to our understanding of it. I think it is fair to say that all of the behavior of hydrogen comes from these lower-level aspects; in short, I don't think "hydrogen-ness" is an emergent property.

    John, let me be precise: I think mind is definitely irreducible. I'm quite sure of this. As to life, I think it more than 50% likely--heck, 99% likely, if you wish--that it's not reducible either. This latter, though, is something I'm less sure of. I don't think life can be reduced solely to physics and chemistry, but I'm open to the possibility that it might be. My intention wasn't to sound inconsistent.

    Scott: [Turmarion] doesn't see any way to tell the difference between a physico-chemical "substance"'s having a substantial form and the same substance's properties being reducible to those of its constituents, and so he doesn't see what talk of "forms" adds to our understanding of physics and chemistry.

    Yes, exactly.

    Brandon, you're quite right about Scotus, though I'm less conversant with his thought. I definitely think the A-T understanding is too strict, which is one of my problems with it.

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  70. Turmarion,

    My point was that truth has value on its own, regardless of whether I can "put it to work". Given that truth has value, the accrual of the basic metaphysical truth that water has substantial form (or does not) has value, completely apart from any pragmatic applications.

    Though, I'm sure others here would argue that its truth or falsity also has pragmatic value.

    For reasons that are unclear, my consciousness is forced to "move"--or better, perceive--along the 4th axis (that of time)

    Your theory—a B-theory—posits huge amounts of epistemic illusionism. For instance, in addition to denying the reality of change, you write that conscious is—for unclear reasons—“forced” to move from body to body along the “world line”. This “forc[ing]” appears to deny the reality of free will. But people perceive the reality of change and free will as part of their most basic, day-to-day experience. Hence, on your theory, people cannot trust their senses to relay correct information about part of their most basic, day-to-day experience. But if people cannot trust their senses to correctly relay such basic experiential data, how can they trust their senses to relay correct information about more complex, empirical, scientific investigation?

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  71. @Turmarion, Scott

    "Dennis, water is a bad example to support your case. All of of the properties of a water molecule do derive from its constituent parts."

    Scott: [Turmarion] doesn't see any way to tell the difference between a physico-chemical "substance"'s having a substantial form and the same substance's properties being reducible to those of its constituents, and so he doesn't see what talk of "forms" adds to our understanding of physics and chemistry.

    Yes, exactly."

    Both of you are right, but I think the causal autonomy is either restricted of sorts when wed together, or is free-er when divorced, I think that is good enough to show what New Essentialists mean by Physical intentionality, be it through water or Styrofoam, does this make sense?

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  72. "Sure, water has properties very different from those of hydrogen and oxygen separately, but what's wrong with saying that (say) "wetness" *is* a property of hydrogen that it manifests when in chemical combination with oxygen, and vice versa?"

    Scott, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't this necessarily imply telos? If not, how does one make sense of it?
    To say that wetness is a property of hydrogen, yet the wetness is unobserved, until a certain interaction takes place, to me sounds like potentia, and telos, necessarily, but if telos is rejected, how does one make sense of this?

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  73. Hi Ed,

    Thanks for a very thoughtful post. You suggest that in the case of a body moving at uniform velocity, the cause of its continued motion is its inertia (i.e. its inherent tendency to keep moving at the same velocity unless acted on by a force), and that the cause of the radioactive decay of a nucleus is simply its substantial form, by virtue of which it has a probabilistic tendency to decay at a certain rate. That's fine, but the causes in question here are formal causes, as you rightly note in your post.

    You then go on to say that the events in question would have an efficient cause too: in the case of the moving body, whatever it was that set it in motion, and in the case of the radioactive isotope, whatever it was that created it in the first place. But the trouble with that suggestion is that it assumes that all movements (and radioactive decay events) must have had a beginning in time. You need to justify that assumption.

    A better way out would have been to argue that bodies, being essentially composite, necessarily require an efficient cause for their continuation in being. That's fine, but if you take that line, you've essentially reduced the First Way to an argument from being, as opposed to an argument from change. You've essentially conceded that some things in the world are self-moving; what you insist (rightly) is that they're contingent in their being.

    In so doing, you've moved a long way from the original argument pout forward by Aquinas. As Joseph Magee puts it in his article, "Analysis of the First Way" at http://www.aquinasonline.com/Topics/firstway-analysis.pdf , "It is implicit in the First Way and explicit elsewhere in Aquinas' writings, that the heavenly spheres are per se causes of motion of the whole world, causes which act simultaneously with the motions or changes they bring about.... Aquinas believes each motion is essentially subordinated to, and simultaneously caused by, the motion of the heavens."

    We now know that this picture is fundamentally wrong. Never mind Aquinas' geocentrism: that's a mere trifle. The more fundamental problem is that movements cannot be simultaneously transmitted over long distances. The only genuine cases of per se causation of movement in the world are cases of immediate contact. Hence the popular argument that there cannot be an infinite series of train cars with no caboose, because then there would be no first cause of the energy required to move the train rests on bad physics. I therefore think it's time for Thomists to quietly shelve the First Way, and rely more on the Second.

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  74. Just to offer my two cents:

    One reason why you should all listen to Georgi M is because he does have an advanced degree in biology.

    I can't blame you guys for being interested in intelligent design creationism because it is comforting to think that a god created all of this for a specific purpose.

    Yes, a bacteria flagellar motor looks like an outboard motor on a boat. But let's look at that, it "Looks like" it, it doesn't mean it is it.

    No one is going to fault anyone for being impressed with the apparent design in things of nature. But there's that word "Apparent".
    A degree in biology will help one realize that appearances are at one level, but the facts of the matter are a bit deeper.

    I've read Feser, I've read Dembski, I've read Paul Nelson, I've read Behe and it's pretty much the same thing just from a different angle.

    Now hear me out. I'm not saying that they are wrong for looking at the biology of life and believing it to be designed. You read that right. It's completely understandable.
    Just like a guy who is great at copying paintings. It's hard whether to tell if it's actually the real Monet or if it's some guy who's a master at copying it.
    So, the point is that it's understandable to be confused. But, just be patient and follow the evidence where it leads. I think an honest mind will have to agree with the scientists, agree with what a Georgi M is saying and finally conclude: it wasn't designed with some design plan in mind.

    If you've followed me this far and if you're still interested I would strongly recommend Richard Dawkins book "An Ancestor's Tale". Yes, form the same guy with the "God Delusion". I know that there's probably a tendency to recoil in shock when hearing that. But, you don't have to read that book. Just first focus on "An Ancestor's Tale".

    I think Georgi M was trying to be helpful here, but some posters kind of pulled him off track (which I think was very intentional on their part).

    But this scientific discipline is simply fascinating.

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  75. Just to offer my two cents:

    One reason why you should all listen to Georgi M is because he does have an advanced degree in biology.


    Except this is hardly an issue of biology full-stop. It is a philosophical and anthropological one as well. And Georgi has demonstrated a remarkable inability to follow along with the arguments of the former discipline (Feser does have an advanced degree as well).

    I can't blame you guys for being interested in intelligent design creationism

    Except Feser and a decent portion of commenters here do not, in fact, support intelligent design because of the mechanistic assumptions smuggled in.

    because it is comforting to think that a god created all of this for a specific purpose.

    Or because, you know, there are rationally compelling (or at least defensible) reasons for it aside from comfort.

    Yes, a bacteria flagellar motor looks like an outboard motor on a boat. But let's look at that, it "Looks like" it, it doesn't mean it is it.

    Okay...and those who defend an *Aristotelian-Thomistic* model of teleology (i.e. not the William Paley kind) would have no problem here.

    No one is going to fault anyone for being impressed with the apparent design in things of nature. But there's that word "Apparent".
    A degree in biology will help one realize that appearances are at one level, but the facts of the matter are a bit deeper.


    Except since teleology is not something that can be controlled by for by science (you aren't going to find a Petri dish with the teleological organisms on one half and the non-teleological ones on the other). So while he might know a thing or two about biology, it does precisely nothing to inform him about teleology.

    I've read Feser, I've read Dembski, I've read Paul Nelson, I've read Behe and it's pretty much the same thing just from a different angle.

    And this proves pretty conclusively in my mind that if you have read Feser, you have not understood him, as he quite explicitly repudiates the arguments given by guys like Dembski and Behe. He does not argue for some type of irreducible complexity or something like that. He is working in an entirely different metaphysical ballpark.

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  76. (continued)

    Now hear me out. I'm not saying that they are wrong for looking at the biology of life and believing it to be designed. You read that right. It's completely understandable.
    Just like a guy who is great at copying paintings. It's hard whether to tell if it's actually the real Monet or if it's some guy who's a master at copying it.
    So, the point is that it's understandable to be confused. But, just be patient and follow the evidence where it leads. I think an honest mind will have to agree with the scientists, agree with what a Georgi M is saying and finally conclude: it wasn't designed with some design plan in mind.


    Again, this is assuming that science is competent to address the task at hand, but since its methods preclude teleology in the first place, science is the absolute last contender to give us truths about teleology.

    If you've followed me this far and if you're still interested I would strongly recommend Richard Dawkins book "An Ancestor's Tale". Yes, form the same guy with the "God Delusion". I know that there's probably a tendency to recoil in shock when hearing that. But, you don't have to read that book. Just first focus on "An Ancestor's Tale".

    Except since Paley and the present day advocates of ID are his targets, it would be of no value to us since he wouldn't be critiquing our position anyways.

    I think Georgi M was trying to be helpful here, but some posters kind of pulled him off track (which I think was very intentional on their part).

    He made baseless assertions, and we demanded that he substantiate them. Plus, if you read his comments, they were pretty damn patronizing; not exactly what you'd expect from someone who was just "trying to be helpful."

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  77. Turmarion: But it is!

    You can disagree, but first you have to understand what you’re disagreeing with.

    formal and final cause have tended to be either rejected completely or understood [as] tautological

    Or misunderstood. Great minds are not always well-informed minds; many rejections work with little more than caricatures. It’s better to learn a position from its proponents, and there are too many great minds on the Aristotelian/Scholastic side not to take it seriously.

    if you could see down to a subatomic level, you'd perceive a uniform substance

    As you’ve presented it, it would be absurd. That’s a really good clue that that isn’t what Aristotle meant! Of course you can see the parts of something; the point is that they are parts rather than things in themselves. If you break wood into splinters and push the splinters back together, it won’t look any different; but you’ll have a bunch of parts, not a single piece of wood. (In this example, the splinters are not bound together the way the original wood was, which is easily demonstrated by applying some force; the point about substances is obviously not about that physical difference, but it is something a bit similar on a metaphysical level.) And if man isn’t reducible to his atoms, then we have a practical, relevant, demonstrable example of this distinction at work.

    Without the context it would be confusing. […] better if they were renamed

    Better for evolutionary biologists or Australian settlers? Terminology always needs some context, and different terms are appropriate for different people in different contexts. Aristotle didn’t choose his words by throwing darts; there are good reasons why the four causes are all called “causes”—again, if you don’t see why, it indicates that you don’t really understand the concepts yet.

    Now in daily life, when we say "cause", we usually mean what Aristotle would call "efficient cause”

    Do we? I already gave counter-examples. Often we’re interested in efficient causes (“Why did my vase fall over and smash?”) because we're well aware of the material & formal & final causes (“It’s made of glass, hollow glass is fragile and falls down, etc.”)—not because we think “being made of glass” isn't a cause. Scientists are interested in efficient causes… except when they’re not. (Why did the glass vase shatter but the rubber ball bounce? The scientist doesn’t care about the efficient cause here (it’s probably “he dropped them himself”), he wants to know how the formal structures of glass and rubber differ.)

    then I'd submit that either moderns are totally in the dark […] or there are issues with the philosophy itself

    Sure, the terminology could be changed—simply come up with a new consistent dialect, convince every philosopher to adopt it, translate all existing works into the new jargon… or else it will be more confusing than before. Whether or not you think modern views are bad, there’s little disputing that few people—philosophers included—have a serious grasp of Scholasticism.

    To put it another way, I think aspects of Aristotle's philosophy are trying to do stuff that is better done with chemistry or physics

    To put it a better way, many folks take their (mis)understandings of Aristotelian metaphysics and try to pretend it’s physics, and then blame Aristotle when it doesn’t work.

    any electron combined withe any proton will always behave the same--same orbital structure, etc.

    Sounds like you are trying to re-invent forms, substantial and accidental, only without calling them that. So I guess they are more necessary than you thought.

    Aristotelian […] distinctions work well in a broad, rough-and-ready sense.

    That's like saying math works well in a rough-and-ready sense, but there are grey areas because it's hard to count the population of China.

    A scientific explanation [is] clear and unambiguous

    You’re not a scientist, are you?

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  78. I've read Feser, I've read Dembski, I've read Paul Nelson, I've read Behe and it's pretty much the same thing just from a different angle.

    OK, normally when I see something so outrageously stupid, I’m inclined to deem it deliberate trolling. But because I’ve been wrong the last few times I tried that, this time I’m going to go for incompetent nitwit.

    If you've followed me this far and if you're still interested I would strongly recommend Richard Dawkins

    Wait, is it too late to change back to “subtle, albeit really boring, troll”?!?

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  79. Turmarion,

    Unfortunately bad phrasing on my pat. Indeed, there is no more "boltness" than there is "rockness".

    And what about 'cordialness' and 'prickliness'? Might they on the same footing as 'boltness' and 'rockness'? That is, if it is legitimate to say that there is no more 'boltness' than there is 'rockness', would it also be legitimate to say that there is no more 'cordialness' than there is 'prickliness'?

    What I meant to say is that a bolt, even as a part of something else, can still be recognized as a bolt. Adler seemed to be saying...

    Scott already made the relevant point re Adler. As a side note, I'll just add that Adler does mention a table leg in his TPM (although, contra the 'FWIW'-reviewer, not to claim "that a table leg is only a 'virtual' table leg when it is attached to a table, and only becomes a 'real' table leg when it is broken off and separated", but in the context of indicating that there is "a sense in which the leg of a table would cease to exist if the table did" (p. 179).)

    [A cairn] would have a pattern that its human builder gave it, so if you mean that pattern is "cairn-ness", then yes. If you mean are there any properties of the cairn that don't derive from the constituent rocks, then no.

    Well, I had asked the question with the intention of gaining a better idea of your position re '-ness'. But since you indicate some uncertainty on your part regarding my position, I'll just say that, in light of the fact that not every stack of stones is a cairn, it seems likely that a cairn does have properties which are not wholly derived from the constituent rocks.

    Thanks for answering the questions.

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  80. Vincent Torley: But the trouble with that suggestion is that it assumes that all movements (and radioactive decay events) must have had a beginning in time.

    No; why? Typically such events would have a temporal beginning, but if not, it simply means that God created them that way as part of a universe with an infinite past.

    You've essentially conceded that some things in the world are self-moving

    “Self-moving” in that limited or relative sense isn’t a problem; what is impossible is for some thing to be its own ultimate cause of movement. Aristotle and Aquinas labelled animals as “self-movers”, but they aren’t unmoved movers.

    We now know that this picture is fundamentally wrong.

    As I recall, Aquinas doesn’t mention the celestial spheres in the First Way, so they don’t seem that fundamental. And since the part that’s wrong is physics, not metaphysics, it’s not fundamentally important to a metaphysical proof anyway. (For that matter, you haven’t actually shown that the movement of the spheres is “fundamentally wrong” even physically — maybe the basic idea just needs a bit of sophisticated tweaking… perhaps we’d now recognise it as the motion of the spatiotemporal continuum in which matter ripples and waves into existence, or something along those lines.)

    The only genuine cases of per se causation of movement in the world are cases of immediate contact.

    You might be misunderstanding per se causality. The simplistic “simultaneous” example is just a particularly simple and obvious illustration (and since it’s illustrating a metaphysical principle, it’s fine to use a possible world in which things can happen simultaneously; if you really want to work it out using actual physics, you can do so, but it’s not necessary, since the metaphysics applies to any possible or actual world). A painter is the per se cause of his painting, but paintings do not happen instantly.

    Hence the popular argument that there cannot be an infinite series of train cars with no caboose, because then there would be no first cause of the energy required to move the train rests on bad physics.

    Really? You're saying that a long enough series of cars can start moving by itself??

    I therefore think it's time for Thomists to quietly shelve the First Way, and rely more on the Second.

    How about a compromise: I’ll put the First Way on the back of this infinite caboose and give it up when it shelves itself.

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  81. Hi Mr. Green,

    Regarding projectile motion and radioactive decay events, you write: "Typically such events would have a temporal beginning, but if not, it simply means that God created them that way as part of a universe with an infinite past." But in that case, you're invoking God as a cause of being rather than as a cause of becoming. That's Aquinas' Second Way.

    You also write: "what is impossible is for some thing to be its own ultimate cause of movement." But it seems to me that a self-moving creature is indeed the cause of its own movement; what it is not the cause of is its own being.

    You add: "The simplistic 'simultaneous' example is just a particularly simple and obvious illustration .... A painter is the per se cause of his painting, but paintings do not happen instantly." I see the point you are making, but I think that Scholastic terminology regarding per se and per accidens causes isn't fine-grained enough. Agent causation is a different kind of causality from per se causation: the former looks down the causal chain from the agent to his/her instruments, while the latter looks back up the causal chain and asks what we need to posit, in order to explain the effect.

    Now consider the case of the painter moving the brush, which paints the canvas. There is of course a small time lag here. But from the standpoint of the painted canvas (the effect), the vital question that needs to be answered is: what is needed to explain the transfer of paint to the canvas? And the answer is: the action of the brush on the canvas. Who or what is moving the brush is irrelevant, and if the brush were infinitely long and moved by nothing and nobody, that would also be irrelevant. It is only from the agent's standpoint (looking down the causal chain) that we can speak of the brush as an instrument used to paint the canvas.

    Finally, you ask: "You're saying that a long enough series of cars can start moving by itself? ... How about a compromise: I'll put the First Way on the back of this infinite caboose and give it up when it shelves itself."

    What I'm saying is that the per se cause of each car's acceleration is the car immediately adjacent to it, which pulls it. The other cars, further up the chain, are not per se causes: their existence is not required in order for us to understand how car X manages to pull car Y which is attached to it. From the standpoint of car Y, it is irrelevant that car X is also being pulled by car W, as car X's ability to accelerate car Y is due purely to its momentum at a given point of time. Whether and how it acquired that momentum does not matter, from Y's standpoint. Thus in an infinitely large cosmos (assuming for argument's sake that one could exist), an infinitely long chain of cars could start moving by itself, and an infinitely long brush could start painting by itself. I know it sounds crazy and counter-intuitive, but it's really no more impossible than the generation of fathers and sons going back ad infinitum, in a universe with an infinitely long past - something Aquinas himself conceded was possible.

    I hope that helps.


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  82. To be serious for a moment: Thomism rests on a set of fairly evident presumptions about the world which to the man on the street would seem as reasonable now as they did to the Greeks two thousand plus years ago. The issue is that Science has consistently shown that supposedly 'evident' assumptions about the nature of the universe are wrong.

    Take the idea of Existents aka Substances. Under normal circumstances no one would ever doubt that there are individual existing objects be they atoms, corpuscles, stars, houses, animals et cetera yet actually that idea has come to look increasingly unlikely given what we now know. Darwin showed that there is no such thing as a stable existing species and modern Biology postulates that not even an individual's genetic makeup stays static over the course of its life. So the idea of ‘living substances’ went. Surely general substances, material things, could never come to doubt though – I mean they were as central to the theories of Galileo and Newton as they were to those strange Catholic monks right? Again wrong. Quantum physics has shown that there are literally no stable abiding entities at whatever level you chose to look, in fact look too closely and the picture appears to break up. This affects everything; literally all is change. So it turns out the common sense notion of substance, of ‘existing beings’, is as outdated as the waky old theory of the Celestial Spheres.

    Let’s go with another example, that of Causation. What does it mean to say something is caused. Thomas would say that it means to say that a ‘substance’ exercises a productive activity whilst Hume would say that we merely apply the term Causation to two or more events we have seen linked together in regular succession frequently. Again though Physics has shown that the truth is far more weird than either of these – causation as bringing something about or as regular succession are both wrong as we now know that the very idea of time they both presuppose is false. In a post-Einsteinian world ‘Time’ can only be understood as a shorthand for a certain illusory way in which human beings experience the world. So very notion of Causation is in fact empty.

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  83. @Turmarion:

    "I've said this before: If you want to call the pattern of one electron, one proton, and the electron shell structure the "substantial form of hydrogen", then I have no objection to that; but that seems to be semantic and doesn't seem to me to add to our understanding of it. I think it is fair to say that all of the behavior of hydrogen comes from these lower-level aspects; in short, I don't think "hydrogen-ness" is an emergent property."

    So one the one hand, it seems to be mere "semantic" (??) to call 'the pattern of one electron, one proton, and the electron shell structure the "substantial form of hydrogen"', adding nothing to our understanding of it, on the other it is an *essential* feature to explain the properties of the Hydrogen atom. Right.

    Look, let me put things this way: you are not disputing the fact that electrons and other elementary particles have substantial Forms (and if you were, your argument would necessarily be different since the one you are deploying relies on specific relations between parts and wholes) so the point of dispute is at what *level* substantial Forms exist. Personally, if it comes out that there is no such thing as a substantial Form of Hydrogen that is Ok, but what is not Ok is to torture the Scientific evidence under our own metaphysical whips and make it say what it does not say. The plain matter of fact is that Hydrogen atoms are recognizable units, have identity conditions, display specific causal and dispositional powers, etc. It looks like a substantial Form, it smells like one; if it walks and quacks like a duck, maybe it *is* a duck.

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  84. Who or what is moving the brush is irrelevant, and if the brush were infinitely long and moved by nothing and nobody, that would also be irrelevant.

    Vincent, have you ever considered that in your desperation to try and find some way, any way, to oppose Ed, you've ended up finding some way, any way, to oppose Aquinas, and at this point are all too happy to embrace nonsense that you used to criticize when atheists spouted it?

    It really seems as if what started as a grudge-match against Feser over his ID criticism is going to end with you embracing full-blown naturalism and atheism in order to consistently criticize Ed's arguments across the board.

    Just tack on "the universe doesn't need any causes, many things have no cause and just happen as a brute fact, God isn't necessary, Occam's razor" and be done with it.

    When you're saying that who or what is moving the brush is irrelevant to the brush's motion so long as it's infinitely long, you're quite done.

    I know it sounds crazy and counter-intuitive, but it's really no more impossible than the generation of fathers and sons going back ad infinitum, in a universe with an infinitely long past - something Aquinas himself conceded was possible.

    No, it... really isn't. Which is why Aquinas conceded that one was possible, but laughed at the other. An infinite temporal series contains no relevant contradictions. An infinitely long paintbrush with no one moving it, does. Saying "well they're both strange, and we accept the possibility of the one, so we should accept both" is poor reasoning.

    I hope this helps.

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  85. One reason why you should all listen to Georgi M is because he does have an advanced degree in biology.

    One reason you should all listen to Feser is because he's a PhD in philosophy, and he specializes in the very field that's under discussion.

    Which, by the way, is philosophy and metaphysics. Not biology.

    I've read Feser, I've read Dembski, I've read Paul Nelson, I've read Behe and it's pretty much the same thing just from a different angle.

    Look guys, I've read all kinds of Supernatural Astrology: Aleister Crowley, Stephen Hawking, Lubos Motl, Terry Nazon, and it's pretty much the same thing from a different angle.

    Wait, did I say something which demonstrates I actually have no understanding what I'm talking about, when I was trying to shore up my credentials? I hate it when I do that.

    Look, JN. Georgi is out of his league here. He's been smacked around, and it's his own damn fault. He didn't "get off track". He tried to argue, got devastated, tried to fall back and attack again, and was routed. That he has academic credentials that almost but not quite reach what Michael Behe has is beside the point. Biology and science don't say what you want and wish it to, because what you want and wish it to say is actually a philosophical, metaphysical and even theological point.

    It's time to own that fact. You can still be an atheist, but you need better arguments.

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  86. @ The Scare-Crow

    Darwin showed that there is no such thing as a stable existing species and modern Biology postulates that not even an individual's genetic makeup stays static over the course of its life.

    Hence the post-Darwinian rejection of the concept of species, amirite?

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  87. Hence the post-Darwinian rejection of the concept of species, amirite?

    Species? If there's no time and no causes, evolution itself goes out the window. There's been no natural selection, as selection is yet another cause, and a mere illusion.

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  88. Hey, as it turns out, all is change and illusion.

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  89. Again wrong. Quantum physics has shown that there are literally no stable abiding entities at whatever level you chose to look, in fact look too closely and the picture appears to break up. This affects everything; literally all is change.

    So would it be correct to say that we can never validly reason through an argument since the entity supposedly doing the reasoning only can contemplate a discrete part of each argument (and thus be unable to evaluate validity) before passing out of existence? Seems like a bit of a problem.

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  90. Again wrong. Quantum physics has shown that there are literally no stable abiding entities at whatever level you chose to look, in fact look too closely and the picture appears to break up. This affects everything; literally all is change.

    So would it be correct to say that we can never validly reason through an argument since the entity supposedly doing the reasoning only can contemplate a discrete part of each argument (and thus be unable to evaluate validity) before passing out of existence? Seems like a bit of a problem.

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  91. What I'm saying is that the per se cause of each car's acceleration is the car immediately adjacent to it, which pulls it. The other cars, further up the chain, are not per se causes: their existence is not required in order for us to understand how car X manages to pull car Y which is attached to it. From the standpoint of car Y, it is irrelevant that car X is also being pulled by car W, as car X's ability to accelerate car Y is due purely to its momentum at a given point of time. Whether and how it acquired that momentum does not matter, from Y's standpoint. Thus in an infinitely large cosmos (assuming for argument's sake that one could exist), an infinitely long chain of cars could start moving by itself, and an infinitely long brush could start painting by itself. I know it sounds crazy and counter-intuitive, but it's really no more impossible than the generation of fathers and sons going back ad infinitum, in a universe with an infinitely long past - something Aquinas himself conceded was possible.

    Infinite sequences confuse me. Let the infinite sequence of cars be C, with a sequence c1, c2, c3 [...]. Let E be the conjunction of the even numbered cars. Let O be the conjunction of the odd numbered cars. Every car of E is caused in terms of O. But every car of O also has a cause in terms of E. Thus, E causes O and O causes E, but isn't that just a vicious circularity?

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  92. I, too, thought it was rather funny that on the same page of comments we have a comment suggesting that modern physics might have shown that change is an illusion and a comment dogmatically asserting that modern physics has shown that everything is change. A more straightforward example of the danger of appeals to 'modern science' becoming a wax nose would be harder to find.

    It's an old problem. When people make these claims it is usually based on their vague sense of analogy rather than any actual scientific requirement, and the analogy itself is often based on some very specific feature rather than larger concerns.

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  93. (Not only does Mr. Torley disabuse us of our delusion that painters are relevant to painting, it turns out that paintings themselves are irrelevent. My heart goes out to Mr. Munch and his peers (one has already been linked to; here's another one). Not to be redundant, but... sheesh.)

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  94. Dang it! Sorry for repost.

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  95. (More from the 'sheesh' department, i.e., an excerpt from Eugen Herrigel's Zen in the Art of [Painting]:

    (Occasionally several of these right [paintings] came off in close succession and [captured the subject], besides of course the many more that failed. But if ever the least flicker of satisfaction showed in my face the Master turned on me with unwonted fierceness.

    ("What are you thinking of?" he would cry. "You know already that you should not grieve over bad
    [paintings]; learn now not to rejoice over the good ones. You must free yourself from the buffetings of pleasure and pain, and learn to rise above them in easy equanimity, to rejoice as though not you but another had [painted] well. This, too, you must practise unceasingly--you cannot conceive how important it is."

    (During these weeks and months I passed through the hardest schooling of my life, and though the discipline was not always easy for me to accept, I gradually came to see how much I was indebted to it. It destroyed the last traces of any preoccupation with myself and the fluctuations of my mood.

    ("Do you now understand", the Master asked me one day after a particularly good
    [painting]," what I mean by: "It [paints], It [captures the subject]?"

    ("I'm afraid I don't understand anything any more at all," I answered, "even the simplest things have got in a muddle. Is it 'I' who
    [wields] the [brush], or is it the [brush] that [wields] me[?] Do 'I' [capture the subject], or does the [subject capture me]? Is 'It' spiritual when seen by the eyes of the body, and corporeal when seen by the eyes of the spirit--or both or neither? [Brush], [paint], [painting] and ego, all melt into one another, so that I can no longer separate them. And even the need to separate has gone. For as soon as I take the [brush] and [paint], everything becomes so clear and straightforward and so ridiculously simple...."

    ("Now at last", the Master broke in, "The
    [bristle] has cut right through you."

    (
    [Nearly a full year went by before I came to truly appreciate that it is It that paints and not I. Nonetheless my doubts were not extirpated. I could accept It as the efficient cause. But the efficient cause seemed to operate only when I was in the studio, and seemed always to be inoperative when I was not in the studio. Never did I leave the studio with a blank canvas on the easel, and return to find the canvas no longer blank. Was it possible that though It was the efficient cause of a painting, I was an instrumental cause?]

    (
    [One day I broached the subject with the Master. In response to my query, the Master said,] "No pupil has ever asked me that, so I don't know the right answer.")

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  96. @JN Dreschell

    Are you trying to
    1) Be funny ?
    2)Troll ?
    The only ID person (strangely enough) turned up around the time you posted (Vincent Torley)

    Why on earth did you reply to this OP and start talking about ID? Where Thomists here!!!

    @The Scare-Crow
    You mostly troll this blog from what I've seen.

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  97. The Scare-Crow is pretty obviously an intentional spoof/joke. I mean just look at the name. Pretty sure they admitted it before.

    Strawman. It's for comedy, just delivered straight.

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  98. The Scare-Crow is pretty obviously an intentional spoof/joke. I mean just look at the name. Pretty sure they admitted it before.

    Strawman. It's for comedy, just delivered straight.

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  99. @Greg

    Tut tut Greg, DNFTT. :)

    He just wants a reaction. His half baked 'argument' was only a hook to get a reaction.

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  100. The Scare-Crow is pretty obviously an intentional spoof/joke.

    Very likely. It's one of those jokes that's a bit too true, though, since I have actually known people making the arguments. SCIENCE! is one of those contexts in which reality spoofs itself better than a master joker can.

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  101. @ccmnxc
    JN Dreschell must also be a troll. Evidence being his claim to have followed the thread and read Feser's books but made wacky remarks about ID then suggested one of Richard Dawkins books in a way that implies we are children needing spoon-feed his ever so 'enlightened' position. Pure troll.
    If Richard Dawkins philosophy is anything to go by I might want to reach for a competent biological text book instead after all.

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  102. @Brandon

    Blame this guy?

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNg1m3Od-GgOshqs9pRZUW7eNUTU-Bsz7

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  103. I don't know. You never know what conclusions people will draw from the science.

    The other nice part about Scare-Crow's post is when he tells us that time is an illusion in a "post"-Einsteinian world. If this is satire it is subtler than it looks!

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  104. @Greg
    That's why it stops being funny - too much effort to make it look genuine.

    Although the reference to time and Einstein is the kind of thing you would get from 'Pop Philosophy' books. Actually I can predict what book he might have even lifted that one from - 'Philosophy in Minutes by Marcus Weeks'.

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  105. Pity some of you guys aren't the kind of people giving feedback on my blog :/

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  106. JN Dreschell must also be a troll. Evidence being his claim to have followed the thread and read Feser's books but made wacky remarks about ID then suggested one of Richard Dawkins books in a way that implies we are children needing spoon-feed his ever so 'enlightened' position. Pure troll.
    If Richard Dawkins philosophy is anything to go by I might want to reach for a competent biological text book instead after all.


    These days, I am unfortunately all too credulous regarding the fact that some people could be serious when they appear to be trolling. It's a defining mark of the New Atheists to be nearly (if at all) indistinguishable from Poes.

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  107. I don't know I think 'The Scarecrow' made a better job of defending bits of comically mashed together stock atheist objections ('Darwin disproved the need for Existence' and 'Causation is not a predicate') than most apparently sincere proponents of those objections. I hear he was going to argue how God’s inability to cycle disproved Divine Aseity and thus established atheism but, well, Quinean animadversions were probably a bit too high-brow for his kind.

    There is about as much chance of JN Dreschell not being a troll as there is Dawkins being a philosopher or Jerry Coyne actuelly understanding a theistic argument not related to ID...

    Anyway Science, Science, Science! (I like to imagine Rudolph Carnap singing this very much along the lines of 'Your Tiny Hand is Frozen')

    P.S. Bonus points for defending dichotomous Heraclitian and Parmenidian positions in the same post. Antimonies of Pure Reason here we come.

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  108. @ccmnxc

    Well if he's (or she?) not trolling he has sadly made himself look like an idiot, who clearly was pretending to look informed (and failed miserably at it).

    As a qualifier I mean he pretended to know Feser. Claiming he was into ID was just dumb.

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  109. @Daniel
    The Heraclitus bit was obvious in the post. I think I missed the other one mind you.

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  110. Brandon, the idea that everything is a four-dimensional world line is standard relativistic physics. Space and time are not really different--we merely perceive them as such. Once more, standard relativity, and well established. From a 4-D spacetime perspective, there's just an unchanging, fixed series of world lines. Why our consciousness perceives a flow of time and attendant change is rather mysterious. As I said, no one has really investigated that interface between physics, psychology, and philosophy.

    In the world as we perceive it, of course, everything is perceived to be in a state of change--panta rhei, and such. No contradiction. If you perform the right experiment with light, it behaves like a particle; if you perform another experiment, it behaves like a wave. Which is it? Well, both, either, neither. It depends. Once more, no contradiction.

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  111. @Glenn:

    "As a side note, I'll just add that Adler does mention a table leg in his TPM[.]"

    Thanks for turning that up. And yes, that makes far better sense than the wrongheaded summary in the Peter Donis review. When I first read the latter, I thought Wait, this guy has it exactly backwards; Adler would be much more likely to deny that a table leg would still be a "leg" when it wasn't part of a table. And sure enough…

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  112. @Turmarion

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-particle_duality

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_h4IoPJXZw

    I think you still seem to be conflating what science is questioning and answering and what philosophy is. That includes in areas of change, time and space.

    If you want a parallel example think of neuroscience and the philosophy of mind.

    I've only started reading what you have said (so apologies if I have misrepresented anything but I think this is what you are getting at).

    Science gives us quantitative data not qualitative. By its very nature it excludes qualitative data (lets not equivocate what I am saying here in any reply to me) .

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  113. @Turmarion:

    "From a 4-D spacetime perspective, there's just an unchanging, fixed series of world lines. Why our consciousness perceives a flow of time and attendant change is rather mysterious."

    The fact that GR describes Spacetime as a four-dimensional Lorentzian manifold no more countenances the view that we are 4d wormholes (without further substantive metaphysical argument that is) than the Feynman path integral countenances the view that a quantum system *really* does take all the history paths at the same time, or the fact that the state of a quantum system is a line in a Hilbert space countenances the view that there *really* is out there such a thing as a Hilbert space, or the fact that variational principles are a bedrock fundamental principle of physics countenances (once again, without further metaphysical argument) the view that teleology is really fundamental to reality.

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  114. OK, we seem to be going in circles here, so let me try to lay out a schematic of what I'm saying.
    1. In ordinary, day-to-day life, A-T hylomorphism and the idea of wholes greater than the sum of their parts makes perfect sense. If you gave me a box full of electrical components when I bought a radio, I wouldn't be OK with that, even if all the components of a radio were there. There's a reason Adler calls Aristotle the "common sense philosopher". Pedagogically, when you teach chemistry you explain how in a mixture, thins are just mixed, but in a compound they become a new substance. However, common sense isn't all there is. In day-to-day life it works well enough to operate as if the world were flat; but of course it's not. Thus, the usefulness of the A-T view is a separate issue from its truthfulness.

    2. If one wants to call a pattern a "substantial form"--one electron plus one proton plus orbital shell equals hydrogen atom; two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to on oxygen atom equals water; etc.--then yes, there are high-level substantial forms. I think I've said this several times. However, I don't know that this is what Aristotle and St. Thomas meant. I think they meant there was a higher form of water into which prime matter was assimilated, or by which it was informed, and that you thus got a whole with properties irreducible to those of its constituents which then existed only virtually. Now maybe that's not true--neither I nor anyone here can read the minds of the dead. However, whether or not that's what they thought, that is the proposition I deny. For nonliving things, at least, I assert that the properties of the higher-level entity--e.g. water--are ultimately, fully, and adequately explained by the properties of its constituent parts--ultimately quarks, gluons, electrons, etc. Once more, I think the ancients had an incorrect view of matter--IIRC, Aristotle didn't think atoms existed, and he seems to have thought all the substantial forms were at a higher level. This is why I dislike using "form" for "pattern", since there's a danger of pulling in mistaken ideas of matter.

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  115. I'll add that I'm willing to bet against many modern models of physics that are based upon its collapsing the discipline completely into mathematics (the way it is going). The rejection of a framework in which to operate is also something which bothers me - I think the discipline is being abused the more silly (and illogical) models are pulled from the magicians hat (of Phd students trying to be relevant).

    Bring the philosophy of science to the physics classroom please (the scientific messiah it will turn out to be).

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  116. grodrigues, with all due respect, are you reading what I say? I specifically said, " no one has really investigated that interface between physics, psychology, and philosophy." In other words, "further substantive metaphysical argument" is exactly what I'm calling for. That we're 4-D entities that only appear to change is one legitimate interpretation; but I, for one, don't claim to have studied relativity and the relevant philosophy in sufficient depth that I am willing to make that claim dogmatically.

    Personally, if it comes out that there is no such thing as a substantial Form of Hydrogen that is Ok....

    So you acknowledge that this is a legitimate view, I assume, whether or not you agree with it. I can live with that.

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  117. (continued from point 2 above)

    3. I agree with John West that truth has value on its own, despite its usefulness or lack thereof. Trust me on this--I teach math and always have to hear, "When will I ever use this?" My point was this: We spent a long time arguing over whether "form" and "configuration" are the same thing, and whether the properties of water are or are not reducible to those of its constituent parts, without seeming to be able to come to an agreement. That seems to me to be hashing semantics, and does not, in fact, strike me as a productive endeavor.

    A couple of specifics now. John West, relativity isn't my theory. It's well-established that the concept of a static world line in four dimensional spacetime valid. It would take too long to go into details, but a good non-technical explanation, as well as an introduction to relativity in general, is Martin Gardner's The Relativity Explosion. Yes, it raises hob in lots of ways: Why do we experience time and change? Is causality real? Do we have huge amounts of epistemic illusion? Nevertheless, there it is. I don't know if anyone has ever looked at that from a philosophical perspective or not, but it's not enough to brush it aside. Someone someday will have to learn the relevant physics and philosophy, and work on it from there.

    Mr. Green: Whether or not you think modern views are bad, there’s little disputing that few people—philosophers included—have a serious grasp of Scholasticism.

    This is the kind of thing that I often hear from some A-T supporters that really gets my goat. I don't say this of Mr. Green, or of anyone specifically here, since I don't know them in person and am not a mind-reader. What a statement like this comes off as sounding like is, "You are but a mere scientist/mathematician/biologist/layman who has not the slightest grasp of the subtle profundity of Scholasticism! He is a philosopher, but he's not a Scholastic, so he has not the slightest grasp of the subtle profundity of Scholasticism, either!"

    In short, the implication is that if someone really, reeeeeally understands Scholasticism, he'd immediately see it's true; whereas if someone disagrees with it or rejects its conclusions, he must not really, really, reeeeeeeeally understand it. In other words, as I've said in discussions on other blogs, one's ideological opponent is thought of as ignorant or stupid (if not both). Let's be clear: I'm not saying that this is Mr. Green's intention. However, I have seen assertions like this in other places in which there was definitely such an implication. Look, I don't claim to be an expert in Scholastic--or any other--type of philosophy. At most I'm a well-informed amateur in both senses--i.e., one who is non-professional and not formally trained, and one who does it for the love of it. Nevertheless, I don't for a second believe that there has never been anyone in the history of philosophy who actually understood Scholasticism well and yet nevertheless rejected it or disagreed with it. Heck, even for my humble self, I think I understand the issues sufficiently to have at least some intelligible opinons!

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  118. @Turmarion

    1. & 2. Okay I see what you are saying but that cluster of atoms is the matter which takes on a certain form. Take your box of radio parts and I bet you can make other 'forms' (so to speak) apart from a radio. We also except that knowledge precedes the whole process - so we do need to look at all the evidence. Its not just pragmatic to embrace Aristotle.

    I may agree partially with you. I think a development of our thinking of the parts that exist virtually in a substantial form might need some further development.

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  119. @Turmarion

    Most people who do 'get it' either end up as 1) Some of the smartest atheist's out there or 2) a theist.

    I do think most people, even most philosophers, even some philsophers of medieval philosophy EVEN those specializing in Thomas Aquinas have a poor grasp of his thought and I for one certainly would put a hell of a lot of it down to cognitive bias (we all have to keep that in check).

    There I've said it.

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  120. @Turmarion:

    "For nonliving things, at least, I assert that the properties of the higher-level entity--e.g. water--are ultimately, fully, and adequately explained by the properties of its constituent parts--ultimately quarks, gluons, electrons, etc."

    Yes, you keep *asserting* that. I even asked, since there is no analytical proof of full-blown reductionism, in what sense you take this necessity. No answer was forthcoming. I am not inventing anything here. Philosophers of Chemistry with no AT ax to grind deny the reductionism of chemistry to physics (see e.g. Scerri and McIntyre The Case for the Philosophy of Chemistry). All the while you keep smuggling in Form by the back door in some form or other (e.g. via implicit references to the whole that is supposed to be reduced to its parts) but keep repeating the same mantra. Yes, you are going in circles.

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  121. Turmarion,

    I'll restate the argument for readers' ease of reference:

    Your theory—a B-theory—posits huge amounts of epistemic illusionism. For instance, in addition to denying the reality of change, you write that conscious is—for unclear reasons—“forced” to move from body to body along the “world line”. This “forc[ing]” appears to deny the reality of free will. But people perceive the reality of change and free will as part of their most basic, day-to-day experience. Hence, on your theory, people cannot trust their senses to relay correct information about part of their most basic, day-to-day experience. But if people cannot trust their senses to correctly relay such basic experiential data, [they cannot] trust their senses to relay correct information about more complex, empirical, scientific investigation[.]

    You replied:

    [I]t raises hob in lots of ways: Why do we experience time and change? Is causality real? Do we have huge amounts of epistemic illusion? Nevertheless, there it is.

    The second half is, if people cannot trust their senses to relay correct information about complex, empirical, scientific investigation, they cannot trust their senses to relay correct information about general relativity. Your philosophical theory of time is based on general relativity. Hence, people cannot trust the basis of your philosophical theory of time. Your interpretation of time is based on relativity—there are others accounting for it—defeats itself.

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  122. Brandon, the idea that everything is a four-dimensional world line is standard relativistic physics.

    I am aware of this; I'm not sure why you are raising the point. The change-is-illusion interpretation, however, is simply one arising from a sense of analogy between certain accounts of change and Minkowski spacetime. We see this with your claim: "From a 4-D spacetime perspective, there's just an unchanging, fixed series of world lines." The 'unchanging' is ambiguous, since it can mean the mathematics, in which lines can stand for anything having a particular quantitative character, or what the mathematics describes; the line perfectly well is capable of being interpreted itself as a change (one way, in fact, we could get to the 4D mathematics in the first place is to start with the assumption that we are describing real changes -- which is, in fact, how scientists collectively originally got to it in the first place). The attempt to interpret it in 'change is illusion' terms is an entirely possible interpretation; it is in no way required by the actual mathematics, any more than the fact that a pendulum swing is a sine curve, and that the mathematics of a sine curve itself requires no appeal to change, shows that the swing of a pendulum is an illusion. Nothing is grounding that inference except analogy.

    I'm also a bit baffled by your final paragraph on particle-wave duality, which in this context is also only relevant as an analogy; we have no actual reason to think that the perceived-change/unchanging-mathematics relation is anything like particle-wave duality. Maybe it is, but nothing grounds that conclusion except a vague sense of similarity.

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  123. I think part of the problem here is that we have some people who have been told, probably in very sparse detail, that science has decisively shown this or that metaphysical or philosophical claim to be wrong. So they show up and quote as much, with an implied authoritative tone and the assurance that actual scientists have had the opinion they're about to share, and are expecting that that will settle the matter. When it doesn't, and when people give arguments about why it doesn't (and in fact can't) settle the matter, they're mystified and a bit irate.

    It's as if the very act of questioning scientists' opinions (or of being able to tell where science is at an end, and where philosophy is beginning) is not unusual to them, but downright alien, and pretty scary on top of it all.

    A scientist said change is illusion! The matter is finished. Wait, you're questioning the science? I.. wha.. but..

    You heard I said this was a scientist, correct? One who has an actual PhD in physics?

    You did?

    ..And you still question their opinion?

    I.. I don't even..

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  124. Interestingly, while looking for something else, I stumbled across my copy of Ten Philosophical Mistakes, and read the relevant passage on atoms. Here is some of the relevant text (pp. 187-189 in the paperback edition):

    Werner Heisenberg used the term potentia--potentialities for being--to describe the very low, perhaps even the least, degree of reality that can be possessed by elementary particles. He wrote:

    In the experiments about atomic events, we have to do with things and facts, with phenomena that are just as real as any phenomena in daily life. But the atoms or the elementary particles are not as real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things and facts.


    Adler goes on, my emphasis:

    Thus, when the chair exists actually as one body, the multitude of atoms and elementary particles which constitute it exist only virtually. Since their existence is only virtual, so is their multiplicity.

    When an atom or a molecule actually exists as a unit of matter, its material constituents have only virtual existence, and consequently their multiplicity is also only virtual

    If the unitary chair--or a single atom--were exploded into its ultimate material constituents, the elementary particles would assume the mode of actual existence which isolated particles have in a cyclotron; their virtual multiplicity would be transformed into an actual multitude.

    This is what I had problems with.

    First, I think he misunderstands Heisenberg. Even in isolation, elementary particles are potentials. For example, an electron is not a hard little ball circling an atomic nucleus as Earth circles the sun, with discrete and knowable velocity and location. Rather, it's an electron "cloud", whose existence at any given place is a probability function. The value of the probability is highest in the electron shell corresponding to its energy state, lower in others, and for all intents and purposes elsewhere (e.g. in the Andromeda Galaxy). Heisenberg is not asserting that elementary particles have different modes of existence when combined than when free.

    Now, go back and read Adler, replacing "chair" with "wall" and "atom" with "brick". Now if he's asserting that the individual bricks and their multiplicity exist only virtually, only in potentia in a standing wall, and exist and have multitude only if the wall is disassembled--well, if he meant something like that, then he's right about atoms, too, and also totally nuts. I realize the arguments that could be made, but it seems a bit perverse to argue that the bricks in a wall are only virtual--we say Aristotle is the philosopher of common sense, but this violates common sense. Pink Floyd didn't sing, "You're just another virtual brick in the wall"!

    It seemed to me, though, that what he meant was that somehow the atoms were subsumed into the chair and couldn't even be distinguished if one could see at that level--in short, as if when I put bricks on top of each other, the seams vanished and the end result looked like one single piece. This is supported by his use of Heisenberg's statement, which, as I said, he seems to misconstrue. Since Adler has long since gone on to his great reward, we have no way of asking him. If he meant the second option--that the atoms really "disappear" into the larger whole, I think that's patently incorrect. If he meant that the atoms exist virtually in the sense that bricks in a wall exist virtually (that is, you could still distinguish individual atoms if you could see that small), then he's trivially right, but he's using really weird definitions contrary to how we usually speak of things.

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  125. My last sentence should have read: "Your interpretation of time based [...]"

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  126. Irish Thomist: There are different metaphysical frameworks that can be attached to the wave/particle duality (as to QM in general), and much disagreement as to which ought to be used. My main point was that, at least in principle, the same phenomenon can appear in vastly different forms.

    I don't necessarily object to the mathematicization of modern physics, but I think it's getting to the point where no one person understands all the math (unlike back in early 20th Century) and where any experiements that could prove a theory involve amounts of energy or scale in general that's impossible to acheive. I don't claim to understand much of string theory, for example, but from what little I do understand, I can't see how they could even begin to do an experiment to prove or disprove it. Frankly, I think the "easy" (relatively speaking) work has been done. Contrary to popular belief, anyone with a year or two of college calculus and physics could sit down and read Einstein's Relativity and at least grasp the Special Theory. I'm far from brilliant at math or physics either one, but I've done that (General, not so much--I haven't studied tensors, and Minkowski's geometry is beyond me). However, for much physics today, I doubt that a non-physics major--or even most physics majors, for that matter--could even grasp the math. I doubt our understanding will advance much in our lifetimes.

    I may agree partially with you. I think a development of our thinking of the parts that exist virtually in a substantial form might need some further development.

    Yes--I can agree with that.

    Most people who do 'get it' [regarding Scholasticism] either end up as 1) Some of the smartest atheist's out there or 2) a theist.

    Well, whether I "get it" or not, I'm a theist--in fact, a Catholic--FWIW.

    I do think most people, even most philosophers, even some philsophers of medieval philosophy EVEN those specializing in Thomas Aquinas have a poor grasp of his thought and I for one certainly would put a hell of a lot of it down to cognitive bias (we all have to keep that in check).

    I think you're right, and I don't doubt there's cognitive bias. I'd add this, though. I've seen even trained Thomist philosophers sharply disagree with each other on certain "in house" matters. Having read a bit of Aquinas and Aristotle myself, I've often had the experience of reading a passage two, three, five, ten times, and still coming away scratching my head. I'm not a trained philosopher, but I'm not a dunce, either. I honestly think that partly because of the highly compressed literary style of Aristotle and St. Thomas, partly because of the cultural and societal differences (in terms of knowing what key terms meant), and partly (perhaps!) some confusion on the part of the two worthies themselves (sometimes even good Homer nods, y'know), in some cases no one is actually sure what they meant. Maybe, in a few cases, even themselves.

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  127. grodrigues, as Bones McCoy might say, I'm a math teacher, not a chemist. I've downloaded the paper you linked to and will read it when I have time. Meanwhile, I'll see if I can run the notion past some chemists.

    John West: Your philosophical theory of time is based on general relativity.

    I'm not saying I have a philosophical theory of time; and I'm not sure anyone does, in relation to relativity. I'm saying that it seems as if time as we experience it is an illusion from the perspective of relativity. I'm aware that this causes problems such as the ones you note--you see where I said it "raises hob"? I don't claim to know what the resolution of all these seeming contradictions is. All I'm saying is that time and causality aren't necessarily as we perceive them.

    Brandon: The change-is-illusion interpretation, however, is simply one arising from a sense of analogy between certain accounts of change and Minkowski spacetime.

    Once more, I'm not asserting that I have the definitive interpretation. I don't think anyone does.

    [W]e have no actual reason to think that the perceived-change/unchanging-mathematics relation is anything like particle-wave duality.

    Correct; it's not. My point was to argue (poorly, it seems) that situations that seem to violate the principle of non-contradiction--that contradictory statements can't be true in the same sense at the same time--at least appear quite normal in modern physics. It is a contradiction to ssay that something's a wave and a particle, or that change is real and it's an illusion; but from a higher perspective, seeming contradictions may be different aspects of the same thing. The reason I pointed this out is that sometimes A-T challenges modern physics on the grounds that it violates non-contradicton. That, I think, was Adler's issue with atoms--how can a chair be one thing and a bunch of things at the same time? In either case, once more, I don't think anyone knows how to interpret such things--physicists I read sure disagree about them a lot.

    Anonymous: It's as if the very act of questioning scientists' opinions (or of being able to tell where science is at an end, and where philosophy is beginning)

    Part of the problem, I think, is that it's increasingly unclear, both to scientists and to philosophers, just where science is at and end and where philosophy is beginning.

    A scientist said change is illusion!

    So did the philosophers Parmenides and Zeno, among others!

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  128. I did some quote mining. I still have to read through the entire article, but this seemed interesting:

    http://articles.philosophyforums.com/links/reality_existence_and_the_atom-4.html

    " Creating a distinction between the word 'reality' and the word 'existence' can serve to draw out two distinct types of being, by lending one of the meanings of reality to the word existence. The choice of which meaning applies to which is somewhat arbitrary, but this is mere semantics. Reality, to put it in the simplest form, is here defined as that which is not fake. Existence is that with which an encounter is comprehensible. Reality contains everything that exists, but existence is only a subset of what is real. Nothing unreal exists, but some things which are real do not exist. Existence is of objects, while reality also covers ideas beyond objects. A number is only real, while a baseball exists. The gross national product is only real, while Antarctica exists. The probability of the sun not rising tomorrow is real, while the sun itself exists."

    "With the distinction between reality and existence suitably defended as meaningful, we can apply it to the concept of the atom. The atom, most certainly, is real -- it's derived properly out of observations, just as probabilities and gross national products may be. When examining it under the criteria of existence, however, the atom fails. The nature of an atom as used in science is that it consists of an arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons. In physics 'atom' is simply the label for an arrangement or activity of these parts, much like a game is a label for an arrangement or activity of people and equipment. To describe what it would be like to observe an atom requires detailing the appearance of the electron, since the electron is the outer part of the atom. The description of the appearance of the electron in physics includes certain interesting properties -- for example, it's incapable of having both a location and a momentum at the same time. Imagine, for a moment, an object which has no location. Now imagine an object which has no momentum (not zero momentum, but rather no concept of momentum). Any idea which comes to mind as an attempt to make this description into something concrete is necessarily wrong. It's not simply difficult, it's logically incoherent to imagine an object lacking a location or momentum. Any idea which comes to mind as an attempt to make imaginable a thing called an atom for which the overwhelming majority of the "space" consists of fields of probabilities of these unimaginable electrons is also necessarily wrong. In mentioning fields of probabilities we also come upon another problem -- the scientific atom does indeed consist of mostly probability fields. While you're imaging either an object which has no location or an object without a concept of momentum, imagine the object not in terms of an event but rather in terms of a statistical probability. This is simply impossible to call an object. As Werner Heisenberg puts it, "the atoms or the elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts." [2] The way in which Heisenberg uses the term 'real' (as concrete things or facts, theoretically observable) is the way we've employed the term 'existent.' It's clear by this point that an atom cannot be an object -- the atom does not exist."

    For what its worth. I haven't read the Adler's book you mention, but I wonder if he is making the same arbitrary distinction as the one in this paper?

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  129. Part of the problem, I think, is that it's increasingly unclear, both to scientists and to philosophers, just where science is at and end and where philosophy is beginning.

    No, I think it's usually very clear. The problem is that the clarity is inconvenient, and people would dearly like their philosophy and their metaphysics to be science.

    They are not.

    So did the philosophers Parmenides and Zeno, among others!

    And they've been answered on this site, among others!

    But at least they knew they were offering metaphysics and philosophy.

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  130. A number is only real, while a baseball exists.

    As a mathematical Platonist, I think numbers are real and exist.

    It's not simply difficult, it's logically incoherent to imagine an object lacking a location or momentum.

    Only for traditional Western logic. Some Eastern logics, such as the Buddhist Madhyamaka school of philosophy, founded by Nāgārjuna, and the Jain philosophy of Anekāntavāda would have no difficulty with such things at all.

    Beyond that, it seems odd to say that atoms are abstractions that are real but non-existent. I mean, if I have an intact teacup, the shards of it abstractions in the sense that they don't exist unless I drop the cup and it shatters. That was what I had originally taken Adler to mean, BTW--that atoms exist only potentially in the way that the shards of an unbroken glass or the sawdust of unsawed wood do. However, we can study atoms with great precision in a way we can't study merely potential shards of china. Thus, I'm not sure I agree with the argument of the linked article.

    As to whether Adler meant something like what the article meant, having re-read the relevant chapter, I'm still not sure.

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  131. Hmm, we have Turmarion quoting Dr. McCoy, and Daniel quoting Spock quoting T'Plana-Hath ("Nothing unreal exists"). What's next—firing Fesers?

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  132. Once more, I'm not asserting that I have the definitive interpretation. I don't think anyone does.

    I didn't say you did; you were the one responding to me. As I noted, I don't know what point you were trying to make in response to my comment.

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  133. @Turmarion:

    "Heisenberg is not asserting that elementary particles have different modes of existence when combined than when free."

    That's right, he isn't, but Adler doesn't attribute that view to Heisenberg. The only view he attributes to Heisenberg is that subatomic particles are less fully real than atoms, which are in turn less fully real than chairs. That's in his step (1) on p. 188, and in that step he's not saying anything about the modes of being of constituents.

    In his step (2) he quietly corrects Heisenberg's language and expressly states that what exists virtually has more reality than the merely potential. This is his own view, not Heisenberg's, and it's proffered as such. Thus…

    "Now if he's asserting that the individual bricks and their multiplicity exist only virtually, only in potentia in a standing wall…"

    …Adler doesn't regard the two italicized expressions as synonymous. (At any rate I see not the slightest reason to think his view of bricks was the same as his view of atoms.)

    It's therefore also, I think, a mistake to think that when he says atoms in combination have multiplicity "only virtually," he means they don't have it at all. Again, that's not what "virtually" means.

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  134. Only for traditional Western logic. Some Eastern logics, such as the Buddhist Madhyamaka school of philosophy, founded by Nāgārjuna, and the Jain philosophy of Anekāntavāda would have no difficulty with such things at all.

    No difficulty insofar as incoherence isn't really regarded as a problem, not because they showed how such things are not incoherent.

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  135. @Turmarion:

    "I teach math and always have to hear, 'When will I ever use this?'"

    I've taught math too (I have an M.A. in the subject), but I have a couple of family members who have never gotten along with the subject very well. The last time one of them said she never used algebra, I replied, "I think I can tell you why not." ;-)

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  136. Scott, I see what you mean. I guess I'm inclined to think that atoms in an object are more like bricks in a wall, even given their quantum properties. I'm not quite sure I agree with Heisenberg. Maybe I'd say this: Arguably, subatomic particles indeed are not quite "real" like rocks and trees, but more like patterns in space time. When you arrange these patters together, you get rocks, trees, etc. I'd say not that the rocks and trees are therefore "more" real, though, but that because they're farther from the lower-level phenomena, they just appear to us to be more real, when really a rock or a tree is as much a pattern in spacetime as rock or tree.

    It's like a comic book--it's all little teeny dots that give the illusion of being a picture when seen from a sufficient distance. Or maybe it's six of one, half dozen the other.

    Re teaching math, exactly!

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  137. @Turmarion,

    ”Not quite sure what you’re saying here”

    I’m talking about the fact that different kinds of stuff have properties just because of the kind of stuff they are. A ball of wax and a sphere of wax made of the same quantity of wax are going to react differently to, say, a collision from another solid even if the speed, weight, shape, etc., of the colliding object is the same in both cases – the differences (such as the resultant trajectory of the movement from the collision) will result from the shape. It would be like playing pool with half of the pool balls not being balls at all but cubes made of the same stuff and same amount of stuff. There is no material difference here but of course cubes and spheres are going to react differently.

    Your objection about my example of gravity is irrelevant. Other could be produced to illustrate the point.

    And I know protons are made of quarks. Once again your reply is irrelevant and completely misses the point and nicely proves what Professor Feser was talking about in this article. It also demonstrates that your understanding of physics and atomism is actually quite superficial as others would understand the point I was making. We're trying to do you a favour by speaking in geek; however, if you're unwilling to think we can't do it for you.

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  138. Anonymous,

    You write:

    "An infinite temporal series contains no relevant contradictions. An infinitely long paintbrush with no one moving it, does."

    OK. What's the contradiction?

    You add:

    "When you're saying that who or what is moving the brush is irrelevant to the brush's motion so long as it's infinitely long, you're quite done."

    No. What I'm saying is that the infinite brush and the infinitely long train are both actually infinite temporal series, when you think about them properly. Each particle in the infinite paintbrush is moved by the one next to it, after a short time lag. Each car in the infinite train is pulled by the one in front of it, after a short time lag. And in both cases, the particle's (or car's) power to move or pull belongs to it purely by virtue of its momentum. That is why these two cases are poor illustrations of the Thomistic principle that an infinite series of per se causes is impossible. These are not infinite series of per se causes, but infinite series of per accidens causes.

    Finally, you accuse me of leaning towards atheism when you write: "Just tack on 'the universe doesn't need any causes, many things have no cause and just happen as a brute fact, God isn't necessary, Occam's razor' and be done with it."

    The universe needs a cause because it is composite, contingent and in many ways arbitrary, and because it is characterized by norms rules (laws of Nature) which presuppose the existence of a Transcendent Rulemaker - in other words, God. Robert Koons' article on the cosmological argument is also well worth reading.

    That's all for now.

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  139. OK. What's the contradiction?

    No one and nothing is moving the paintbrush. It is painting.

    Choose one.

    That is why these two cases are poor illustrations of the Thomistic principle that an infinite series of per se causes is impossible.

    You didn't suggest that Thomists give up on the First Way due to the claim that a model example given to illustrate the problem was imprecise. Come off it.

    The universe needs a cause because it is composite, contingent and in many ways arbitrary, and because it is characterized by norms rules (laws of Nature) which presuppose the existence of a Transcendent Rulemaker - in other words, God.

    Or an infinite series of finite makers.

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  140. Brandon, you said: I, too, thought it was rather funny that on the same page of comments we have a comment suggesting that modern physics might have shown that change is an illusion and a comment dogmatically asserting that modern physics has shown that everything is change.

    I'm not the one who said "modern physics has shown that everything is change"--I don't think, unless you paraphrased. My point was that to say that "change is an illusion" is not necessarily a contradiction to the proposition "change is an illusion". My point in bringing in QM was to say that it's not a contradiction to say that a photon is both a wave and a particle. Maybe that was a bad analogy.

    Consider this: If I hold an opaque square in front of a light, then depending on its orientation to the light, its shadow might be a square, a parallelogram, or a line. Two dimensional beings on the wall (as in Flatland) could not understand how all these completely different shapes (objects, to them) could be the same thing; and yet to me, as a 3-D being, I can easily see them all to be manifestations of the same underlying reality. Thus, two things that on the human level may seem to be complete contradictions may, on a higher level, be totally consistent.

    BTW, that, Anonymous, is what I meant in referencing Asian philosophical traditions. It's not that incoherence or contradictions doesn't matter; it's that what seems on one level of reality to be incoherent or contradictory is perfectly consistent at a higher level. I'd be prepared to say that's definitely what Buddhist philosophy says, as I'm more conversant with it. I don't know Jain philosophy as well, but to the extent I do, it seems to do this, too.

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  141. Timocrates: I’m talking about the fact that different kinds of stuff have properties just because of the kind of stuff they are.

    Of course--wax isn't rock; but the different properties for non-living things all reduce to those of subatomic particles.

    A ball of wax and a sphere of wax...

    A ball is sphere, isn't it? I haven't seen many tetrahedral basketballs!

    ...made of the same quantity of wax are going to react differently to, say, a collision from another solid even if the speed, weight, shape, etc., of the colliding object is the same in both cases...

    If the mass, type of wax, volume, shape, and size of the two balls were exactly identical, and if they were lying on the same surface at the same temperature, and were struck by identical balls the exact same size, composition, velocity, etc. and at the same angles, they would behave the same. Were that not true, pool sharks wouldn't be able to get consistent results.

    Now it's true that in reality one ball might stick to the object colliding with it, another might shatter, etc.; but that's because for a softer substance such as wax, you have a looser atomic structure, and that would mean you couldn't get exactly identical balls no matter how you tried. No two pool balls are identical, either, but with the tighter atomic structure of the wood, their are fewer confounding factors, and the balls can be made to behave with greater consistency.

    Cubes and spheres would, of course, act differently. However, if you had perfectly identical cubes struck by perfectly identical spheres under perfectly identical conditions, the cubes would react identically. You just couldn't know all the factors sufficiently to do so.

    None of which really is relevant to what I said: that for nonliving things, the properties of the whole are reducible to those of the constituents. Even Dr. Feser was willing to entertain the notion that the only substantial forms are at the subatomic level, and all higher level forms are accidental. I don't think he believes that, though I can't speak for him, but he didn't deny it as a possibility.

    It also demonstrates that your understanding of physics and atomism is actually quite superficial as others would understand the point I was making. We're trying to do you a favour by speaking in geek; however, if you're unwilling to think we can't do it for you.

    With all due respect, and with no offense intended, this is why, though I've read this blog in the past, I've never commented on it before. I see this kind of thing a lot here. There's really no excuse for this level of discourse, and it doesn't add one whit to the conversation. Yes, I spoke rather harshly of Dr. Feser over at Vox Nova. Not that I need to explain myself to a third party, but we all have off days and I was in a prickly mood. I apologized directly to Dr. Feser right here, and acknowledged that I wasn't living up to my own standard. I have commented many times on this thread by now, and I have not once spoken insultingly to anyone here, condescended to them, or made insinuations about their intelligence. If you want to discuss the issues, fine; if you want to go for snark, casting aspersions, and ad hominems, I have nothing more to say

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  142. I'm not the one who said "modern physics has shown that everything is change"--I don't think, unless you paraphrased. My point was that to say that "change is an illusion" is not necessarily a contradiction to the proposition "change is an illusion".

    I must be missing something here. You're quite right that you didn't say that everything is change. Since your second sentence is a logical tautology, I assume that one of the 'change is an illusion' propositions should be 'everything is change'?

    But then it's still quite obvious that there is no contradiction, at least any formal one; the combination of the two propositions logically yields the conclusion that everything is an illusion, as Greg drily notes in his comment December 16, 2014 at 7:06 AM.

    What you are arguing is that there can be a difference in modality such that there is no contradiction, even though there would be if there were only one modality. That's logically true; one doesn't need complicated physical scenarios to establish it, because it follows from the principle of noncontradiction itself, and is, moreover, a common feature of human life (just the bare fact of doing different things at different times turns up endless number of examples). But this wouldn't actually address any argument that there is a contradiction unless one knew the particular difference in modality relevant to the particular case -- if it were relevant, which I don't see that it is.

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  143. @Turmarion:

    "I'm not quite sure I agree with Heisenberg."

    I'm not quite sure Adler agreed with Heisenberg.

    "Maybe I'd say this: Arguably, subatomic particles indeed are not quite 'real' like rocks and trees, but more like patterns in space time. When you arrange these patter[n]s together, you get rocks, trees, etc. I'd say not that the rocks and trees are therefore 'more' real, though, but that because they're farther from the lower-level phenomena, they just appear to us to be more real, when really a rock or a tree is as much a pattern in spacetime as rock or tree."

    I think it's at the level of the tree that the question really gets interesting. A tree is, after all, an organism, whereas a rock is pretty unarguably not. (Even Rudy Rucker would, I think, attribute proto-consciousness only to the subatomic constituents of the rock!)

    Let's recap the main point on strictly inanimate nature just to make sure everybody's up to speed. Your point is that even if there are (as you acknowledge there may well be) substantial forms at the bottommost level of physical and chemical reality, there doesn't seem to be any really solid reason to posit them at higher (preanimate) levels, because the properties of (to use our much overworked example) water can be explained by those of hydrogen and oxygen.

    [continued]

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  144. [continued]

    Also, even if there's good philosophical reason to posit them, it doesn't appear that they add anything much to science. Dr. Joe Bloggs the chemist reasons as follows: (1) Eureka, I've found that hydrogen and oxygen combine to make something that I like to call "water." (2) Interestingly, this "water" has properties very different from those of either hydrogen or oxygen alone. It doesn't seem to make any difference to his scientific understanding whether he goes on to conclude that (3a) water has a brand-spankin'-new substantial form of its own or (3b) water has the properties it has because hydrogen and oxygen have the causal power to manifest those properties in combination with one another, so it's really their substantial forms (or those of their ultimate constituents way down in the Physics Basement) that do all the real work. (And I must emphasize here, against one or two other posters, that the question isn't whether you're implicitly granting that water has a form. Sure you are, and sure it does, whether or not we agree on the precise sense in which this is so. The question is whether it has a substantial form as opposed to a sort of "resultant" accidental form.)

    Now, I don't see a blessed thing in any of that that Aristotelianism and/or Thomism couldn't just accept and move on. But something new is arguably introduced at the level of the tree, and you've acknowledged that life may not be reducible to sheer physical chemistry. Here, I'm very inclined to think that plants have what Aristotle and Aquinas called "vegetative souls" and constitute unities—substances—in a way that chemical compounds arguably may not: an oak is an oak and not a mere aggregate of chemicals that just "appears" to be an oak when we look at it from far away, so to speak.

    As I said in an earlier post, this is the earliest point at which the rubber really hits the road. But even supposing that vegetable life can be fully explained in terms of the properties of its physico-chemical constituents, that still leaves the levels of mind and intellect.

    The heart of the matter, I think, is that to take a "reductionist" view of physical reality is not at all to take a "reductionist" view of reality overall. It's merely to say that the inanimate parts of reality don't necessarily require substantial forms anywhere but at the bottommost level even though some of the higher levels—rational animals, say—pretty clearly do.

    "A ball is [a] sphere, isn't it?"

    Yeah, but ya sure gotta have some spheres to point that out.

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  145. Turmarion writes: "There's really no excuse for this level of discourse, and it doesn't add one whit to the conversation."

    I have to agree. There's no need to pull punches in argumentation and I hardly think Turmarion is a shrinking violet in that regard. But surely it's perfectly obvious that Turmarion isn't "unwilling to think" and doesn't deserve to be characterized in that way.

    This site does attract a fair number of trolls, and for that matter people who, though perhaps falling short of Full Trollhood®, don't argue in good faith; I have no problem with keeping our powder dry and our muskets at the ready for such cases. But this isn't one of them. Turn off the smoke alarms; there's no fire here.

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  146. However, Vincent Torley, you'd better take cover. ;-)

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  147. Brandon: But this wouldn't actually address any argument that there is a contradiction unless one knew the particular difference in modality relevant to the particular case -- if it were relevant, which I don't see that it is.

    I can understand how the same hypercube, projected into three dimensions from different angles, would appear different to me to be different shapes while still being the same hypercube. As a 3-D being, though, I can never imagine what a hypercube as such actually looks like in its proper 4 dimensions. If I explained this to someone who doesn't understand much math, they might not even understand it conceptually by analogy, as I do, but they might trust me enough to take it for granted. If someone asked that person, "Why does it look like a cube sometimes and like a parallelopiped at others?", all that person could say is, "Well, my friend said its different levels of reality, but I don't get it."

    OK. Some interpretations of relativity indicate that there is no change. My senses indicate that there is. These need not be a contradiction. I don't say "illusion". The cube or parallelopiped I see when the tesseract is projected into 3-D is real enough; it's not an illusion. It's just not a complete representation of a hypercube. I guess it's an "illusion" in the sense that it's a cube or parallelopiped, not a tesseract; but as a cross-section or projection these solids are accurate enough. I'd prefer to say that change is "real" from our perspective and unreal from the 4-D spacetime perspective. I guess you could say that means change is an illusion; for the reasons given, I'd prefer not to phrase it that way.

    Now, how this difference of modality occurs or is to be understood, I just don't know, any more than my fictional fried knows why a hypercube can look different in 3-D. However, if one has good reason to think there are different modalities (and I think we do have such good reasons, including but not limited to, relativity), then we don't have to understand the modalities or be able to give a full account of them to know that they're there.

    Does that make sense?

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  148. Scott: Your point is that even if there are (as you acknowledge there may well be) substantial forms at the bottommost level of physical and chemical reality, there doesn't seem to be any really solid reason to posit them at higher (preanimate) levels, because the properties of (to use our much overworked example) water can be explained by those of hydrogen and oxygen.

    Yes, that's a fair statement of what I'm saying.

    Also, even if there's good philosophical reason to posit them, it doesn't appear that they add anything much to science. [T]he question isn't whether you're implicitly granting that water has a form. Sure you are, and sure it does, whether or not we agree on the precise sense in which this is so. The question is whether it has a substantial form as opposed to a sort of "resultant" accidental form.

    Yes, and also yes to the hypothetical Dr. Joe Bloggs.

    Now, I don't see a blessed thing in any of that that Aristotelianism and/or Thomism couldn't just accept and move on.

    Neither do I, and neither, apparently, does Dr. Feser. But I've had this kind of discussion elsewhere, too, and the idea that the only substantial forms are subatomic seems to irk the living piss out of a lot of A-T sympathizers. I have tended to get blowback with the the following notions, explicitly stated or not-so-subtly implied: 1. "How DARE you desecrate the wisdom of the sacred ARISTOTLE and ST. THOMAS!!!" 2. "You just can't UNDERSTAND the SUBLIME WISDOM of Scholasticism!!!" 3. "Your fancy-schmancy science isn't all it's cracked up to be, nerd boy!!!" I really don't get this. I've argued with followers of other philosophical traditions, and my track record is the A-T's are really, really touchy. I understand that they've been unfairly treated as the red-headed stepchildren of philosophy, in philosophical circles; but still, gee! What gives?

    The heart of the matter, I think, is that to take a "reductionist" view of physical reality is not at all to take a "reductionist" view of reality overall. It's merely to say that the inanimate parts of reality don't necessarily require substantial forms anywhere but at the bottommost level even though some of the higher levels—rational animals, say—pretty clearly do.

    No disagreement here.

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  149. A lot of appeals to ignorance.

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  150. @Turmarion:

    "'You just can't UNDERSTAND the SUBLIME WISDOM of Scholasticism!!!'"

    Well, you have to realize that none of the Schoolmen ever argued amongst themselves or disagreed about anything in the least important.</sarc>

    Seriously, the regular posters on this site are generally very open to informed disagreement, but on some subjects or points a newcomer may have to persist in demonstrating his/her bona fides (and basic understanding) in order not to be mistaken for one of the usual run of trolls.

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  151. Turmarion writes,

    Only for traditional Western logic. Some Eastern logics, such as the Buddhist Madhyamaka school of philosophy, founded by Nāgārjuna, and the Jain philosophy of Anekāntavāda would have no difficulty with such things at all.

    In what way would Madhyamaka or other Buddhist schools of thought have no difficulty with what you are claiming?

    In Buddhism there really is no philosophy, even in the sense in which the Schoolmen were engaged in philosophy, let alone how modern Analytical philosophers are.

    What you find in Buddhist schools of thought is, rather, the use of certain insights - especially paradoxes and aporia - to loosen the hold of purely discursive reason and the overreliance on mental concepts and to awaken to the spiritual intuition.

    This approach, though, is not meant to supplement for a philosophical system, or for logic understand in the Aristotelian sense, although Buddhism generally shows an aversion to any philosophical endeavour that does not serve the spiritual journey directly. Nor does this approach simply accept contradictions or the intrinsically illogical, far from it.

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  152. Does that make sense?

    Again, none of this seems to have anything to do with my original comment, which was about interpretation and did not say anything about contradiction; and it didn't say anything about contradiction because there is no formal contradiction, as I explicitly pointed out in my previous comment. Because there was no formal contradiction, positing a modal difference with respect to which there is no contradiction is already unnecessary. So either you have been reading something into my comment that wasn't there, or I still don't know what point you are trying to make.

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  153. I'd prefer to say that change is "real" from our perspective and unreal from the 4-D spacetime perspective.

    There is no 4-D spacetime perspective, or at least none that anyone's reporting on as having had. There's a 4-D spacetime model that we use in some contexts, and not in others. And if the model says that we cannot possibly be experiencing what we are, in fact, experiencing, then it's not at all clear that we should decide our actual and fundamental experience should be ruled out. If anything, the model may be regarded as an imperfect model. Useful in some ways, not so much in others.

    Even if you insist "well, we know there are other modalities, and even if we can't fully account for them or explain them or even understand them, we at least know there's something else out there", that's not going to be enough, because if we're lacking understanding or comprehension of those modalities, then they're not going to be of use in arguing against the reality of change and time. Certainly not if the very thing outside of understanding and comprehension turns out to be those same aspects that are under discussion.

    1. "How DARE you desecrate the wisdom of the sacred ARISTOTLE and ST. THOMAS!!!" 2. "You just can't UNDERSTAND the SUBLIME WISDOM of Scholasticism!!!" 3. "Your fancy-schmancy science isn't all it's cracked up to be, nerd boy!!!"

    What many of us are tired of is the attitude that science disproves this or that metaphysical or philosophical claim, when it does nothing of the sort. We're tired of science and scientific authority being abused by people who don't understand the issues they're talking about, who brush off obvious and deep contradictions as mere trifles, or who (as we've seen in this thread) try to present formal academic achievement in one field (biology) as granting authority in unrelated fields (theology, philosophy, and more.)

    No one here has done 1 whatsoever, 2 is a fair charge if you do not in fact understand it, and 3... well, it often is not. It turns out science isn't capable of granting final judgment, or any judgment at all, of some very important topics. It's better to just accept as much and move on than to try and pretend science has shown that there is no change or even time, and the massive contradictions (not to mention conflict with experience) inherent in such a claim aren't, you know, a concern.

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  154. Turmarion,

    Heisenberg is not asserting that elementary particles have different modes of existence when combined than when free.

    Here is Heisenberg giving a seemingly half-way decent imitation of someone intimating just such a thing:

    "Just as the Greeks had hoped, so we have now found there is only one fundamental substance of which all reality consists. If we have to give this substance a name, we can only call it 'energy'. But this fundamental 'energy' is capable of existence in different forms. It always appears in definite quanta which we consider the smallest indivisible units of all matter and which, for purely historical reasons, we do not call atoms but elementary particles. Among the basic forms of energy there are three specially stable kinds: electrons, protons and neutrons. Matter, in the real sense, consists of these with the addition of energy of motion. Then there are particles which always travel with the velocity of light and which embody radiation, and finally other forms with a short life of which only a few have been discovered so far. The variety of natural phenomena is thus created by the diversity of the manifestations of energy, just as the Greek natural philosophers had anticipated."

    The above quotation is from Heisenberg's Philosophic Problems of Nuclear Science, from which Adler himself quotes in his TPM (pp. 184-185).

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  155. Turmarion: We spent a long time arguing over whether "form" and "configuration" are the same thing, and whether the properties of water are or are not reducible to those of its constituent parts [which doesn’t] strike me as a productive endeavour.

    But part of the lack of production is conflating two different things (what “forms” are and what “water” is), mixed in with criticisms of such before even getting clear on what forms are all about.

    If he meant that the atoms exist virtually in the sense that bricks in a wall exist […] then he's trivially right, but he's using really weird definitions contrary to how we usually speak of things.

    We do have some ways of “asking” Adler what he meant: we can look at other of his writings, we can look at what other Aristotelians mean by this, we can see which interpretations are reasonable and which are unreasonable. But this particular conclusion can’t be so trivial if there’s so much confusion around it; and how we usually speak of things is sometimes (a) sloppy and ill-considered, (b) influenced by modern philosophical [errors], (c) deliberately not metaphysically technical, and/or (d) not weird at all if we look a little more carefully.

    That, I think, was Adler's issue with atoms--how can a chair be one thing and a bunch of things at the same time?

    In a way, yes, that line of questioning gets at the metaphysical issues involved. But it has nothing to do with any supposed problems in physics, modern or otherwise. (It’s been known for some time that things have parts. Whether those parts are “atoms” or whatever else is not particularly relevant to the question of how something can be one and many.) There’s not even any point wondering how atoms fit into the picture until we know what the picture is.


    In short, the implication is that if someone really, reeeeeally understands Scholasticism, he'd immediately see it's true; whereas if someone disagrees with it or rejects its conclusions, he must not really, really, reeeeeeeeally understand it.

    Well, nobody actually said that. But if someone really really understands Scholasticism, then at least he probably really understands it. The converse also holds. Someone who has not studied it to any particular extent is not going to be able to form any particularly useful opinions about it; and while one might expect every professional philosopher to have a decent grounding in the major school of Western philosophical thought, the fact is that even philosophers are human and Mediaeval studies aren’t fashionable these days. Nobody is saying that there is a conspiracy among philosophers who understand A-T but don’t agree with it to misrepresent it; the problem is simply that a lot of them never learned anything beyond the standard cliches and parodies in the first place. (And demonstrably so — Ed has various articles here where the professionals are cited in their own words saying things on a par with “Columbus was trying to prove the world was round” or “Then why are there still monkeys??”)

    All it boils down to is that if you want to say Aristotle or Aquinas (or Scotus, etc.) was wrong or outmoded or “nuts”, it behooves you to know what you’re talking about. Which is surely good advice for anyone about any subject, no?

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  156. Vincent Torley: But in that case, you're invoking God as a cause of being rather than as a cause of becoming.

    I’m not sure that matters, since God is a fortiori the cause of motion of anything He creates; but even if it did, the First Way requires only that there is something that gets moved, and surely there are plenty of candidates which we all agree did not exist forever.

    You also write: "what is impossible is for some thing to be its own ultimate cause of movement." But it seems to me that a self-moving creature is indeed the cause of its own movement

    Hence my quite deliberate use of the word “ultimate”.

    Who or what is moving the brush is irrelevant, and if the brush were infinitely long and moved by nothing and nobody, that would also be irrelevant.

    I find it curious that an impossibility in your example is “irrelevant”; but in any case, I think you have misunderstood per se causality. It is not matter of looking up or down a chain, but of looking at the purported cause in question. Does a paintbrush have the power to move around by (per) itself (se)? Obviously the answer is no. (This entails a chain of causality with some agent further down the chain, but that is not part of the definition.)

    A paintbrush does have the power by its own essence to hold a glob of paint in its bristles, so it can be the per se cause of holding a glob of paint; you don’t need to add something or do something to the brush to make it able to hold paint (though note that a paintbrush cannot make its own paint, so you do have to do something to it — dip it in some paint — to get it to actually hold paint; but it has the power to do so simply by virtue of being a paintbrush. Likewise it has the power to be moved, but it does not have the power actually to do so without introducing some other cause into the mix.)

    What I'm saying is that the per se cause of each car's acceleration is the car immediately adjacent to it, which pulls it.

    This is wrong: each car is the proximate cause, but it is not the per se or essential cause, because it is not part of the essence of a car to move unless it is being moved. That ability is part of the essence of an engine, but we don’t need to worry about what the agent is. We know by studying an ordinary railway car all by itself that it has the power only to transmit movement, not to create it. This just means that the car is an instrument of movement; it can be an accidental cause of movement, but not an essential one.

    [continued…]

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  157. [cont'd…]

    The other cars, further up the chain, are not per se causes: their existence is not required in order for us to understand how car X manages to pull car Y which is attached to it.

    I think there are two things being confused here: firstly, we need not know or care what particular cause is making X move; we don’t need to know any of that to know that X must be an instrument of something. And we do know that, by the very meaning of “railway car” vs. “railway engine”. (I assume you are not disputing the different between a carriage and an engine or claiming that all carriages are engines or anything like that.)

    Secondly, there is a difference between X’s power to pull and actually actualising that power. X per se has the capability to pull things, i.e. X is of itself able to latch onto another car, and if something causes it to move, it will be able to transmit that motion. But the details of the mechanical coupling are not the issue here; the question is whether X can actualise its own pulling power, and of course the answer is no.

    Thus in an infinitely large cosmos (assuming for argument's sake that one could exist), an infinitely long chain of cars could start moving by itself, and an infinitely long brush could start painting by itself.

    Except that the dissipation of energy would mean there would be nothing left long before we got to our car X. But I was the one who pointed out that real-world physics is not the issue here, so let’s ignore that.

    I know it sounds crazy and counter-intuitive, but it's really no more impossible than the generation of fathers and sons going back ad infinitum

    I don’t argue that it is wrong because it “sounds” crazy (although it is wrong, so I suppose in that sense it is “crazy”); but you have got essential and accidental causes mixed up here. A man can per se beget a child, because that’s what it means to be a man (well, at risk of bringing in real-world biology, one also needs a woman; what one does not need is a father or a grandfather, or a great-grandfather). It doesn’t matter how some man, Melvin, got there — once he’s there he can mate with his wife regardless of whether or not he has any ancestors. The very opposite is true of railway car X. X needs not only to get there somehow, it also needs to get accelerated somehow. That’s the only way it can start moving, and thus start moving Y. An infinite number of men (and women) can mate because it’s in their nature to do so. An infinite number of railway cars can not start moving because it’s not in their nature to do so. The former is an accidental series of essential causes; the latter is an essential chain of accidental causes. And an essential causal chain needs an essence at the head that is able to cause the given effect; in this case, some engine must be the first cause of a series of cars that come to move, however long that chain may be.

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  158. @ Vincent

    Have you received your copy of Scholastic Metaphysics yet? I believe someone ordered it for your...

    In any event, Ed has a very useful section that defines the characteristics of a per se causal series as per Scotus on page 148. Check it out if you have the time. There are three characteristics he lists there. I think the second characteristic is most interesting: "...in essentially ordered causes the causality is of another nature and order, in as much as the higher cause is more perfect. " This is key because the thing that is causing the movement must have the causal power to move that thing inherently within itself. The brush that paint or the cart that moves the other cart or the stick that moves the rock does not inherently have such a power within itself. They must all receive a power that is not within their natures to produce inherently.

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  159. Just to make sure I have the concept I mentioned above right: is Ed (Scotus) saying here that per se causal series would have to involve different entities like these:

    1-inanimate to vegetative (for example the roots of a tree causing a rock to crack)?
    2-inanimate to animal (for example, a monkey using a stick to cause the beehive to fall)?
    3-inanimate to human being (for example, the human being causing the stick to hit the stone)?

    Would that mean that you could never have a causal per se series between inanimate to inanimate? I suppose you would be able to have causal per se series between two human being if one were trowing another instrumentally into another person (say in a bar fight).

    Do I have this right?

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  160. And if I'm right, then the first mover argument would involve:

    1-God as the per se cause of existence.
    2-God as the per se cause of essences being conjoined to existence.
    3-Human, animals, or plants that have intrinsic powers to move inanimate objects in a per se way.
    4-These beings owe their powers of self moving to the cause of their essence and existence (God).

    How badly have I mangled the first way here?

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  161. Brandon, I guess we're just not getting each other. We'll just have to leave it at that.

    Glenn, I think I could agree with the quotation you give from Heisenberg, though I'm not sure I'd interpret it as you do. He seems to be saying that "matter" is just patterns of energy in space, which seems about right.

    To the house at large, I gave this proviso before, but I'll give it again: Re the type of blowback I described, I didn't associate it with anyone here.

    Mr. Green: What many of us are tired of is the attitude that science disproves this or that metaphysical or philosophical claim, when it does nothing of the sort.

    When Boswell said to Dr. Johnson that it seemed unclear how Bishop Berkeley's metaphysics could be refuted, Johnson famously kicked a rock and shouted, "I refute it thus!" Of course, that wasn't a refutation; but I think the point is that if something seems too far out there and if there are no other reasons to believe it (as there are with relativity, for example), then while common sense and science can't strictly refute it, they should be given priority in deciding whether or not to accept it.

    We can't really prove we're not brains in a vat, or hooked up to the Matrix, or the only thing in existence that hallucinates everything else; but most people wouldn't give such viewpoints the time of day because they don't accord with the world as we experience it, even if they can't be formally refuted.

    Of course, many aspects of modern physics don't accord with perceived reality; but experiments can be performed that show them to be sound--e.g. particles accelerated close to the speed of light do, indeed, exhibit a slowing down of time. Now with things like world lines and QM, the differences from observed reality are very great; but their predictive power is strong--the GPS in your car works only because it's programmed with the equations of relativity. Thus, they can't be as easily dismissed. That doesn't mean they "disprove" Scholasticism; but it does seem to me that they merit some careful thinking by people who understand the philosophy and the physics, to see how they can be reconciled.

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  162. We can't really prove we're not brains in a vat, or hooked up to the Matrix, or the only thing in existence that hallucinates everything else; but most people wouldn't give such viewpoints the time of day because they don't accord with the world as we experience it, even if they can't be formally refuted.

    They do accord with the world as we experience it. That's precisely what makes them problematic.

    Most people don't give them the time of day because they sound pretty fanciful, and that's about it.

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  163. I think that Aristotle would firmly agree that the natural sciences are the most directly accessible and verifiable to us. However, there are limits to what it can uncover, and in fact points beyond itself. It may be the foundation of any good First philosophy, but it cannot be that First philosophy itself.

    Science provides the data. The question is, what metaphysics best accounts for this data? What metaphysics can best make sense and provider the unifying umbrella for all scientific fields of study?

    I certainly agree that there are metaphysics that are too far out there. But is Thomism really one of them? And if not Thomism, then would you point to Platonism?

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  164. @Turmarion:

    "Now with things like world lines and QM, the differences from observed reality are very great; but their predictive power is strong--the GPS in your car works only because it's programmed with the equations of relativity. Thus, they can't be as easily dismissed. That doesn't mean they 'disprove' Scholasticism…"

    I should say not! I'm not sure why they'd be taken to conflict with Scholastic metaphysics at all. The heart of what Thomism, for example, has to say on the subject is that if things are behaving lawfully (as they must be if they behave predictably, and may be even if they don't), that's because it's in their nature to behave in certain ways and not others.

    What those ways are is an empirical question, but scientific answers to that question will, to the extent that they're satisfactory, always be found to include the functional equivalents of (e.g.) form and matter, much as the standard mathematical account of relativity describes formal features of mass/energy and spacetime whether we call them that or not.

    "…but it does seem to me that they merit some careful thinking by people who understand the philosophy and the physics, to see how they can be reconciled."

    Sure, and I don't think you'll find too many Thomists disagreeing; in fact you'll find some very important Thomists actually doing it (Benedict Ashley and William Wallace are the two names that leap at once to my own mind).

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  165. [Brains in a vat and such] accord with the world as we experience it. That's precisely what makes them problematic.

    Maybe I should have phrased it like this: They don't accord with our normal understanding of the world, that is, that it's WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). Occam's Razor would suggest that the account that makes more assumptions (that we're brains in vats) should be rejected over the simpler assumption (that the world is as we see it) unless there are other reasons to think the more complicated explanation is true--which for the brains-in-vats hypothesis, there are no such reasons.

    Relativity and QM make weird scenarios, too, but they "work"--it can be empirically shown that predictions they make are accurate. Thus, the brains-in-vats scenario is weird, but we have no reasons to consider it; but relativity and QM, while equally weird, have reasons we should consider them. Even if they "sound fanciful", we do have to give them the time of day, since we actually use them (once more, GPS; and in the longer run, quantum computing).

    If something that seems to go against the teachings of a metaphysical system is nonetheless demonstrable, I think it's fair to say that it deserves consideration. That's not quite the same as saying that a metaphysical system can be refuted (or proved) by science as such; but it's not in some pristine, totally separable area, either. Were that so, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, Adler wouldn't have bothered with the passage about atoms, etc.

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  166. Daniel, maybe you should take a look at this

    http://iteadthomam.blogspot.com/2014/10/quaeritur-does-first-way-argue-for.html

    Turmarion, you have said a lot of things in the last two post of yours, which are propositions indeed, but that which have incredible implications, while I will agree(allowing for the bare logical possibility of us being hooked to the matrix), this proposition comes with incredible implications, and there are many questions raised; for starters,

    (i) How can our senses be deceived, and to what extent?
    (ii) What kind of experiences can be subject to be question[Logically]?
    (iii) How do we conceive of our senses being wildly confused? e.g. Experiencing a sharp object as though it be 'round'
    (iv) Is the objection or the proposition even logically coherent?
    (v) Or is it only able to be imagined, but not conceived?
    (vi) If the senses are to doubted, when the opposing position cannot even be coherently conceived, should we entertain the proposition?

    These questions are deep questions and much related to sense-perception, which other than having the force of bare logical possibility, poses nothing, if it can be shown to be incoherent. Peter Coffey's epistemology, Part I & II is what you should be looking at if you are serious about questioning these things.

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  167. Daniel: Science provides the data. The question is, what metaphysics best accounts for this data? What metaphysics can best make sense and provider the unifying umbrella for all scientific fields of study?

    Yes, this! Thank you, Daniel! Science (as well as ordinary observation) does provide data. Sometimes it has sounded to me as if the claim is being made that metaphysics is totally divorced from empirical observation; certainly the assertion has been made that science could not, even in principle, prove or disprove a given metaphysical system. I'm just asserting, though, what you say here: The data has to be accounted for, one way or another. Metaphysics can't be totally sealed off from the world of actual observations.

    For the record, I don't think any metaphysical system has adequately accounted for modern physics. That's why it still produces such consternation. If someone had come up with an metaphyics that easily accounted for all the paradoxes, conversations like this would no longer be occurring, and we'd be talking about something else.

    I'm inclined to think that Aristotelianism/Thomism/Scholasiticism, at least as they've been traditionally understood, have some significant problems in accounting for the data. Maybe I'm wrong on that; but I don't think the issue has been settled. When I say I'm a Platonist, I'm not asserting that Platonism is better at dealing with modern physics. What I'm saying is something like this.

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  168. Dennis, my point was that many aspects of modern physics indicate that our senses deceive us (if insist on putting it that way; I'd say more that they give us incomplete information), but that unlike the Matrix, there are empirical reasons to think that relativity and QM are actually true. Now how the picture they paint of the world is to be reconciled with the world as we experience it I don't know--and I don't think anyone else does, either.

    As to your and Scott's reading suggestions, I've put them on my list--but if I "had world enough and time"!

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  169. Perhaps the reason why no metaphysics has adequately accounted for modern physics is that modern physics, especially quantum physics, is still very much a work in progress.

    One of the key indicators of this for me is the number of paradoxes and seeming violations of the law of non contradiction that appear in the literature.

    We cannot expect any metaphysics to account for the data of modern science until modern science has completed this work as far as it can. That said, metaphysics can and should be in dialogue with scientists on these questions. So many of the great breakthroughs in modern science began as philosophical speculation that empirical evidence was discovered for at a later date.

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  170. @Turmarion:

    "As to your and Scott's reading suggestions, I've put them on my list--but if I 'had world enough and time'!"

    ("Make Mine Marvell!") My own are just for future reference in case you ever have time to look into them. My main point in mentioning them is that Thomism is pretty into the whole Science Thing and, indeed, one major school of it takes physics as the starting point for drawing metaphysical conclusions.

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  171. "Dennis, my point was that many aspects of modern physics indicate that our senses deceive us (if insist on putting it that way; I'd say more that they give us incomplete information), but that unlike the Matrix, there are empirical reasons to think that relativity and QM are actually true."

    Here, I'm the correct way to interpret the datum is necessary, that's where metaphysics plays a key role, it certainly seems so to some/most people, but things have to be investigated, let me quote a few more things you said so that things are clearer. The only thing I take issue with here, is that since you're a Platonist, I cannot make sense of what you mean by the 'senses are deceiving us,' do Platonists attack primary notions of thought? Do they acknowledge it, or do they dispute it? Intellection of things is the activity of the intellect, what about the extramental notions of things?

    That aside, I agree with Daniel and Scott, for the reasons I'll give below, but first I'll quote a few more things from you.

    "If something that seems to go against the teachings of a metaphysical system is nonetheless demonstrable, I think it's fair to say that it deserves consideration. That's not quite the same as saying that a metaphysical system can be refuted (or proved) by science as such; but it's not in some pristine, totally separable area, either. Were that so, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, Adler wouldn't have bothered with the passage about atoms, etc."

    "Yes, this! Thank you, Daniel! Science (as well as ordinary observation) does provide data. Sometimes it has sounded to me as if the claim is being made that metaphysics is totally divorced from empirical observation; certainly the assertion has been made that science could not, even in principle, prove or disprove a given metaphysical system."


    Turmarion, I will say this because the majority of people I meet who are dismissive of Aristotelianism, do so because they simply do not understand what Aristotle added to the debate of Parmenides & Heraclitus, what's more, they fail to understand the crucial distinction being and non-being & causal efficacy. I do not know what, or how I could even entertain the proposition of non-being causing being. The A-T metaphysics is working with a very firm grip on what is absolutely necessary in order for change to occur, now this is the charge I have against you, you do acknowledge substantial forms, what you are having problem with is telos, and necessarily telos. If you have acknowledged substantial forms at any level of reality, you've admitted yourself to telos, and you need to start from there.

    I do not know what kind of propositions you are willing to entertain, but I, cannot even in principle entertain the proposition that 'no-thing,' is causally efficacious and especially so why in the area of quantum physics, and nowhere else. Assign a single property in towards 'nothing,' and it ceases to be 'nothing,' and is something. How do you even conceive of these things?

    There's a lot of things that metaphysics establishes, and I wouldn't say it is completely divorced of scientific research, however, it certainly deems things that is just logically incoherent, earlier in your replies, you always countered the points forwarded by presenting something irrelevant to it(not saying that this is your intention), however, this is an established claim that is 'off-limits' for science, in the strict sense. Do you dispute this? If so, how can we conceive of the counter-position? If you don't, then we've certainly established something that is necessarily sealed off from science, and with very good reason, for if such propositions are entertained, it is the very destruction of it...

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  172. "Here, I'm the correct way to interpret the datum is necessary, that's where metaphysics plays a key role,"

    Here, I'm going to say that for the correct way to interpret the datum requires is where metaphysics plays a key role.

    Sorry for the double post.

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  173. Daniel: Perhaps the reason why no metaphysics has adequately accounted for modern physics is that modern physics, especially quantum physics, is still very much a work in progress.

    We cannot expect any metaphysics to account for the data of modern science until modern science has completed this work as far as it can.


    Yes; well said. My lurking suspicion is that we're a long way out from such completion, and that completing this work may be beyond our capability, alas. In any case, this is why I hold all metaphysical systems lightly, including those towards which I'm sympathetic. I think there are metaphysical systems that work pretty well for day-to-day events. Aristotelianism-Thomism is one, in fact--I may have more abstract reservations, but for most daily matters, it works pretty well.

    However, I'm not willing to say, categorically, as some seem to, that science, particularly physics, can never, even in principle make a discovery that will call any given metaphysics into question.

    Meanwhile, all we can do is to say "choose your poison", so to speak, regarding metaphysics, and keep up with the science as well as possible, and see what eventually results.

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  174. [To first Anonymous comment] We can't really prove we're not brains in a vat, or hooked up to the Matrix, or the only thing in existence that hallucinates everything else; but most people wouldn't give such viewpoints the time of day because they don't accord with the world as we experience it, even if they can't be formally refuted.

    As Anonymous says, this doesn't make much sense. The whole point of these scenarios is that our experiences would apparently be exactly the same if they were true. Any flaw in the scenario itself, if there is any, could only be formal, due to some implicit inconsistency. When people reject them without having a formal refutation, it's always because they are purely speculative hypotheses with nothing supporting them but a tissue of analogies.

    [To second Anonymous comment]Maybe I should have phrased it like this: They don't accord with our normal understanding of the world, that is, that it's WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). Occam's Razor would suggest that the account that makes more assumptions (that we're brains in vats) should be rejected over the simpler assumption (that the world is as we see it) unless there are other reasons to think the more complicated explanation is true--which for the brains-in-vats hypothesis, there are no such reasons.

    I don't see how this makes any sense either. There seems to be no sense in which WYSIWYG, in which the world is extraordinarily baroque, has fewer assumptions or is a less complicated explanation than brain-in-vat hypotheses. In BIV, causes are fewer, kinds of causes are fewer, kinds of explanation are unified into one kind of explanation there are fewer actual entities posited, and so forth. Further, you have yourself put forward a speculation that is structurally equivalent to a BIV scenario: We experience a world that may not be WYSIWYG at all, and we do not know the underlying explanation of our experiences, despite the fact that our experiences are where we actually start. Why is Occam's Razor out for BIV and not for your non-necessary interpretation of 4D models as indicating that there is no change, when every 4D model admits of an interpretation in which what we perceive is real (every 4D model of apparent change being mathematically equivalent to some 3D representation + real change, and every 4D line being interpretable as a change)? This is precisely what the first Anonymous was complaining about -- the elision of a lot of assumptions as if the science showed something that it only does if we are making more interpretive assumptions than are found in the actual mathematics+experiments+observations. And it connects as well to several previous points made by commenters -- John West's point that the actual practice of science (experiment and observation in particular) seems to be intelligible only in terms of things like real change, causality, and general if fallible reliability of sense and cognition, so anyone who denies these things owes everyone an account of scientific experiment that makes sense of experimentation itself, makes sense of the conclusions drawn from it, and does so without treating experiments as changes, or as causal situations, or as involving sense and thought. And it connects with my previous point that these kinds of interpretations seem often to be based on nothing other than a subjective sense of analogy, and not any actual requirement of the mathematics or experimental evidence -- just like BIV scenarios.

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  175. I butchered my correction as well, oh well, sorry for the typos.

    "Here, I'm the correct way to interpret the datum is necessary, that's where metaphysics plays a key role,"

    Here, I'm going to say that for the correct way to interpret the datum requires is where metaphysics plays a key role. "

    The metaphysics is required to interpret any datum that is provided by science.

    While I've taken 3 posts to write one sentence correctly, I'll add just one more thing, most people who oppose A-T positions, for the most part, those who are untrained in thought(not saying that you are untrained), are simply unaware of how reductio functions. Please make sure you understand how exactly we use reductio.

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  176. We're at 378 comments now, and I find I'm having to go back over dozens of comments to say anything intelligible. The suggested readings alone are enough for a graduate seminar! Maybe it's me, but I'm feeling there's a lot of running in circles and talking past each other. Some here at least seem to think I'm making some intelligible points, whether or not they agree; and some apparently think not. In any case, I might make a few more comments here; but I think I've made my main points as well as I can, and I have a child with the flu, so I think I'm going to have to give my regards and best wishes for a good Advent to all here, and check out of the thread for awhile.

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  177. Good luck Turmarion. I hope your child feels better soon. Four out of my five are at home sick too. There are some nasty bugs going around.

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  178. Thanks, Daniel. Entire school districts around here have been closing--it's really going around. My daughter is doing better today, though, and I hope yours get better, soon, also.

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  179. @Turmarion:

    You have a good Advent as well, and I hope your kid feels better soon.

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  180. Tumarion, I certainly agree that that's a lot to read, hope you can do them in due time at your pace, moreover, do enjoy this time of year and I hope your child recovers soon.

    God bless.

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  181. Turmarion,

    I'm not saying I have a philosophical theory of time; and I'm not sure anyone does, in relation to relativity. I'm saying that it seems as if time as we experience it is an illusion from the perspective of relativity. I'm aware that this causes problems such as the ones you note--you see where I said it "raises hob"? I don't claim to know what the resolution of all these seeming contradictions is. All I'm saying is that time and causality aren't necessarily as we perceive them.

    With all due respect Mr. Turmarion, you've just proceeded to concede my argument and then ignore it in the rest of your posts. If your specific realist interpretation of relativity is true, you cannot trust your senses enough for the empiricism it's built on.

    But it's at times like this I remember Quine's famous thesis:

    Any statement can be held true come what may, if we make drastic enough adjustments elsewhere in the system. Even a statement close to the periphery can be held true in the face of recalcitrant experience by pleading hallucination or by amending certain statements of the kind called logical laws. Conversely, by the same token, no statement is immune to revision. Revision even of the logical law of the excluded middle has been proposed as a means of simplifying quantum mechanics; and what difference is there in principle between such a shift and the shift whereby Kepler superseded Ptolemy, or Einstein Newton, or Darwin Aristotle? (Quine. Two Dogmas of Empiricism.)

    You have a Merry Christmas.

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  182. A bit off topic, but is it possible to make a blog post regarding the Thomistic view of torture?

    I'm finding it hard to find any information.

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  183. A short piece on torture by James Chastek, followed by lots of comments and discussion, is here.

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  184. The suggested readings alone are enough for a graduate seminar

    Without intending even a fraction of an ounce of condescension, if you have not already read it I would like to add Mark Colyvan's The Indispensability of Mathematics, and any good introduction to the realist/anti-realist debate in philosophy of science (perhaps others have specific recommendations). I think they would help immensely sorting out ontological budgeting of the type in which you're engaged.

    Indispensability arguments are, in any case, important for us math guys to know about.

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  185. Turmarion,

    >> A ball of wax and a sphere of wax...

    > A ball is sphere, isn't it? I haven't seen many tetrahedral basketballs!

    A ball of wax and a sphere of wax are quite different things. If common sense fails one here, then what Timocrates had to say about the two is adequate fodder from which a reasonable person to may correctly infer the difference.

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  186. Turmarion,

    Of course--wax isn't rock; but the different properties for non-living things all reduce to those of subatomic particles.

    That which is prior to the reduction, and that which is after the reduction, are not one and the same, even though that which is left after the reduction also existed prior to, and in or as part of, that which had been reduced. IOW, the atoms of a table, e.g., are in a mode of existence which differs from their mode of existence when they're free (i.e, not a part of the table, or anything else).

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  187. Turmarion,

    Glenn, I think I could agree with the quotation you give from Heisenberg, though I'm not sure I'd interpret it as you do. He seems to be saying that "matter" is just patterns of energy in space, which seems about right.

    If you want to interpret Heisenberg as saying that "'matter' is just patterns of energy in space", that's fine with me. **

    Although... I will confess to being just a wee bit puzzled by your refusal to acknowledge that 'patterns of energy in space' are, as Heisenberg put it, 'capable of existing in different forms', and do indeed manifest in a variety of diverse of ways, or, as Adler put it, have different modes of existence.

    The 'mode of existence' of something is nothing other or more than the manner or way which in which it exists.

    For example (and rather loosely):

    (1) Nelson Cruz was a Baltimore Oriole; (2) he decided not to resign with the Orioles, so became a free agent; and, (3) then signed on with the Seattle Mariners.

    The Nelson Cruz of (1), the Nelson Cruz of (2) and the Nelson Cruz of (3) are all one and the same Nelson Cruz.

    Nonetheless, though he himself remained constant, his employment status did not.

    First he was employed by the Baltimore Orioles; then he was unemployed; and then he was employed by the Seattle Mariners.

    IOW (and, again, loosely), his 'mode of existence' in (1) differed from his 'mode of existence' in (2), and both his 'mode of existence' in (1) and his 'mode of existence' in (2) differed from his 'mode of existence' in (3).

    - - - - -

    ** It's fine with me, provided you don't mean to include 'prime matter'.

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  188. Anonymous,

    I think 'torture' as the kind of category we tend to think of is a relatively modern concept. (For instance, despite the fact that a lot of standard punishments would be considered cruel and unusual by our standards, any general idea of torture as a method of interrogation seems nonexistent before the modern period -- if it happened, it was actually rare. People would be harshly punished for refusing to explain the evidence against them, but not, contrary to popular belief, in order to extract information in the first place. It's also only in modern warfare that it makes any sense not to treat prisoners well -- in ancient and medieval warfare, if you take prisoners at all you want to treat them well so that you can get a good ransom for them, or trade them for concessions.) So one would mostly only find it indirectly addressed in (1) accounts of punishment; (2) accounts of the virtue of clemency (and its opposing vice, crudelitas or cruelty); and (3) accounts of violence as an aggravation of injustice.

    But Aquinas is quite clear that it is unlawful to do someone harm except as punishment for the sake of justice, and the punishment has to be appropriate to the injustice being punished. That would be the first principle with which one would have to start.

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  189. Thanks for the suggestion, John--one more book on the list....

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  190. @Turmarion

    As a mathematical Platonist, I think numbers are real and exist.

    Most philosophers of math are closet Platonist's surely? I think I came out about that detail already - I think they exist in the mind of God. What is the mind of God gets slightly more complex mind you.

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  191. @Scott

    What's next—firing Fesers?

    Consider that line stolen for future Combox boxing.

    Happy Advent everyone, soon to be Christmas.

    Likely won't be commenting much until New Year - although will be blogging (hope to have a few interviews up in the New Year).

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  192. Turmarion,

    I know you said you were taking a break, but I have a few questions.

    In what sense are you are a Platonist? It seems a strange sort of Platonism that argues so strongly for the primacy of natural science. Also I'm a Platonist and would say that Aristotelianism, interpreted correctly, is compatible with Platonism.

    Also, your main claim - that we must wait for natural science to be fully certain of our metaphysics - seems somewhat vague. It would be useful if you could give a more precise conceptual explanation. What is the relationship you see between natural science and metaphysics? What sort of natural science evidence could refute A-T metaphysics? Personally, the only troubling evidence would be of the kind that seemed to show the violation of the principle of causality and the violation of basic laws of logic. But, then, such evidence would be hugely detrimental to natural science as well.

    And, as others have pointed out, you don't really address the need for metaphysics - philosophy - to make sense of the very scientific evidence you are referring to. It is very much open to question whether a strict empiricism could do that.

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  193. Hi Anonymous,

    In response to my question "What's the contradiction?" (regarding the case of the infinite paintbrush) you wrote:

    "No one and nothing is moving the paintbrush. It is painting."

    That's not a contradiction.

    Please note, by the way, that I'm NOT affirming that an infinite paintbrush is really possible. What I'm saying is that if it isn't really possible, the reason has to do with the impossibility of there being an actual infinite.

    You added:

    "You didn't suggest that Thomists give up on the First Way due to the claim that a model example given to illustrate the problem was imprecise. Come off it."

    The reason why I suggest that Thomists give up on the First Way is that: (a) even a short finite series (3 or more members) of per se causes of motion is impossible, which renders the argument irrelevant; and (b) there is no contradiction involved in supposing that something undergoes change (e.g. radioactive decay) simply because it is in its nature to change in a certain way. This sort of explanation invokes formal causality but not efficient causality.
    In Aquinas' First Way, the hand-stick-stone example makes it clear that it is efficient causality that Aquinas has in mind. If you want to argue that the thing's nature would still require an efficient cause, fine - but that's NOT an argument from motion.

    Finally, you ask why the universe couldn't have an infinite series of finite makers.

    My answer is that any larger multiverse (or even an infinite series of multiverses) encompassing our universe
    would still be contingent, composite and subject to rules [or norms], which scientists call laws of Nature.
    Rules require a Rule-Maker. In other words, we can treat even an infinite series of multiverses as a giant object, and meaningfully ask why it exists.

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  194. Hi Mr. Green,

    Thank you for your detailed response. You write:

    "I think you have misunderstood per se causality. It is not matter of looking up or down a chain, but of looking at the purported cause in question. Does a paintbrush have the power to move around by (per) itself (se)? Obviously the answer is no.

    "...Each car is the proximate cause, but it is not the per se or essential cause, because it is not part of the essence of a car to move unless it is being moved. That ability is part of the essence of an engine, but we don't need to worry about what the agent is. We know by studying an ordinary railway car all by itself that it has the power only to transmit movement, not to create it.

    "...[W]e need not know or care what particular cause is making X move; we don't need to know any of that to know that X must be an instrument of something. And we do know that, by the very meaning of 'railway car' vs. 'railway engine.'"

    (End of quote.)

    I think you are making an incorrect inference about wholes from a consideration of their parts, in both the paintbrush and the railway car examples.

    Certainly it is true that "an ordinary railway car all by itself that it has the power only to transmit movement, not to create it." And certainly for any finite series of railway cars, we could infer the same, because we would have to ask what set the first car in motion. But it does not follow from an individual railway car's inability to create movement that an infinite series of railway cars would have this property.

    The same reasoning applies to the parts of a paintbrush. Each of the atoms lacks the power to create motion, but it does not follow that an infinitely long paintbrush would lack this power.

    Now, you might find something fishy about the supposition that an infinite series of things, each in themselves lacking the power to initiate motion, would somehow possess this capacity. I do too. But I can't see any contradiction in the supposition. If there's anything wrong with it, I think the problem lies with what's being conceded in the first place: that there might actually be such an actually infinite series. That's as far as I've got in my thinking. Cheers.

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  195. @Jeremy,

    Remember that Quine, one of the most influential proponents of Scientism in the last century, was also a Platonist in that he thought scientific praxis obliged us to posit Numbers (Sets) are free standing Abstract Objects. Not that Turmarion is endorsing Scientism of course but I suspect this is what is meant by Platonism in this case - given that term's association with any ontology which affirms free-standing Abstract Objects in modern parlance I tend to use the probably historically inaccurate Neoplatonism to refer to what you mean by Platonism.

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  196. @Jeremy,

    Remember that Quine, one of the most influential proponents of Scientism in the last century, was also a Platonist in that he thought scientific praxis obliged us to posit Numbers (Sets) are free standing Abstract Objects. Not that Turmarion is endorsing Scientism of course but I suspect this is what is meant by Platonism in this case - given that term's association with any ontology which affirms free-standing Abstract Objects in modern parlance I tend to use the probably historically inaccurate Neoplatonism to refer to what you mean by Platonism.

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  197. Hi Daniel,

    I have received my copy of "Scholastic Metaphysics" which someone very kindly mailed to me. I don't have it by me right now, but I'll have a look at page 148 tonight.

    You write: "the thing that is causing the movement must have the causal power to move that thing inherently within itself. The brush that paint or the cart that moves the other cart or the stick that moves the rock does not inherently have such a power within itself. They must all receive a power that is not within their natures to produce inherently."

    This gets back to the issues I touched on in my response to Mr. Green (see my previous post). The individual parts of a brush and the individual members of a series of railway cars lack the power to initiate movement, but I can't see any compelling reason why the same would apply to an infinitely long paintbrush or an infinitely long series of railway cars. Cheers.

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