Thursday, October 16, 2014

Could a theist deny PSR?


We’ve been talking about the principle of sufficient reason (PSR).  It plays a key role in some arguments for the existence of God, which naturally gives the atheist a motivation to deny it.  But there are also theists who deny it.  Is this a coherent position?  I’m not asking whether a theist could coherently reject some versions of PSR.  Of course a theist could do so.  I reject some versions of PSR.  But could a theist reject all versions?  Could a theist reject PSR as such?   Suppose that any version of PSR worthy of the name must entail that there are no “brute facts” -- no facts that are in principle unintelligible, no facts for which there is not even in principle an explanation.  (The “in principle” here is important -- that there might be facts that our minds happen to be too limited to grasp is not in question.)  Could a theist coherently deny that?
 
I don’t think so, certainly not on a Thomistic or other classical theist conception of God.  For suppose there are “brute facts.”  Either they would be facts about God or they would be facts about something other than God.  But surely no facts of the latter sort could be “brute facts” if theism is true.  For if some fact about something other than God was a brute fact, that would entail that it had no cause, no explanation, no source of intelligibility of any sort.  That would entail, among other things, that it did not have God as a cause, explanation, or source of its intelligibility.  Hence it would be something which does not depend on God for its being.  And that would conflict with the classical theist position that (as the First Vatican Council puts it) “the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, were produced, according to their whole substance, out of nothing by God” (emphasis added).

But couldn’t a theist hold that while there are no brute facts concerning anything other than God, there are brute facts concerning God himself?  Could he not say that God’s existence is a brute fact, or that God’s having a certain attribute is a brute fact? 

Again, not on a classical theist conception of God.  Suppose God is, as Aristotelians hold, pure actuality with no potentiality; or that he is, as Thomists hold, subsistent being itself.  Then he exists of absolute necessity, and thus has his sufficient reason in his own nature, and thus is not a “brute fact.”  So, to make God’s existence out to be a brute fact, one will have to deny that he is pure actuality or subsistent being itself.  That entails that he is a mixture of actuality and potentiality, and of an essence together with a distinct “act of existence” (to use the Thomist jargon).  But that in turn entails that he is composite rather than absolutely simple.  And that is incompatible with the classical theist position that divine simplicity is essential to theism, as well as with the de fide teaching of the Catholic Church (declared at the First Vatican Council as well as at the Fourth Lateran Council) that God is simple or non-composite.  Even to say that while God exists necessarily, his having some particular attribute is a “brute fact,” would also conflict with divine simplicity.  For if his having the attribute is a brute fact, then he does not have it necessarily but only contingently.  (If he had it necessarily, it would follow from his nature and for that reason would not be a brute fact.)  But if he is necessary while the attribute in question is contingent, then it is distinct from him and thus he is composite and not simple.

Nor, as it cannot be emphasized too strongly, is divine simplicity some eccentricity the classical theist arbitrarily tacks on to theism.  It is at the very core of the logic of theism.  If God were composite then it would make sense to ask how it is that his component parts -- act and potency, essence and existence, substance and attributes, or whatever -- happen to be combined together to form the composite.  It would make sense to ask “What caused God?,” in which case we would not really be talking about God anymore, because we would no longer be talking about the ultimate source of things.  Even if it were suggested that “God” so conceived has no cause and that it is just a “brute fact” or a matter of sheer chance that the composite exists, we will for that very reason be talking about something that could in principle have had a cause and might not have existed.  Why anyone would want to call that “God” I have no idea; certainly it bears no relationship to what classical theists mean by “God,” and by virtue of being composite, contingent, etc. it would in fact be the sort of thing classical theists would regard as creaturely rather than the Creator.  You might as well worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

So, just as PSR leads to theism, theism leads to PSR.  There is no circularity here, because one could accept PSR even if he didn’t think it leads to theism, and it takes additional premises to get from PSR to theism in any case.  But there is a natural affinity between the views, and this affinity shows how very far away from reality is the stupid caricature of theism as somehow irrationalist.  On the contrary, to see the world as intelligible or rational through and through is implicitly to be a (classical) theist, and to be a (classical) theist is implicitly to see the world as intelligible or rational through and through.  And by the same token, despite the rhetoric of its loudest contemporary proponents, atheism is implicitly irrationalist insofar as it must deny PSR so as to avoid theism. (More on these themes in some of the posts linked to at the end of the previous post.)

238 comments:

  1. I just did above. I found it in Aquinas. I read it. I thought about it.


    Yes, exactly: you just did it, effectively conceding that you had already been babbling on and on about it while simultaneously not having fulfilled even the most elementary duty of an intellectually responsible critic.

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  2. Christopher:

    I certainly didn't mean to slight you. I'm looking for those who regard themselves as sufficiently steeped in the philosophical subculture of Thomism to offer up a sophisticated and sufficient explanation for the enormity of Adam and Eve's original sin and why God would then withhold from Adam and Eve's descendants his (her) protection from natural evils and the body's corruption.

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  3. No Brandon, I'm reading the tradition as I've been talking to you. I'm interested. I'm not being gratuitous. I just happened to quote Thomas directly above, and pointed to that as obvious evidence.

    I'm about a third of the way through "Real Essences," I'm reading Turner's biography of Aquinas, I read a book this week by a Catholic philosopher on Aquinas and Existentialism, and I read (cover to cover last weekend) two books on Aquinas-oriented themes. The books were "Satan the Heretic: The Birth of Demonology in the Medieval West" (University of Chicago Press) and "What Happens After Pascal's Wager?", by Daniel Garber (From the Aquinas Lecture Series 2009, Marquette University Press). Getting up to speed on a subculture is a process. You've got a lingo here that I'm getting the hang of, and I'm trying to figure out what's sensible for me in your subculture and what's not.

    One thing I don't like in your subculture is the cruelty and impatience frequently directed in these threads toward strangers like me. It's hardly Christian (at least from what I understand of Christianity). I don't think either Thomas or Jesus would approve. In Turner's biography of Aquinas, he characterizes him as a patient teacher of those who knew far less than he, and who believed it was more important to "cast light for others than merely shine for oneself" (p. 6).

    If I ask hard questions, or state a position opposite Thomism, it's not to persuade others away from Thomism, but to gauge whether real Thomists steeped in the subculture of contemporary Thomism have responses that make sense to me. If Thomism is true, it can sustain skepticism directed toward it. Snark is not an argument.

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  4. Santi,

    In order for the argument from evil to work, you need to show that God can't have reasons for allowing evil in the world. That's not the same thing as demanding that we produce those reasons. The fact that I nor anyone else can justify the ways of God to you only proves that we aren't God, not that God doesn't have his reasons.

    We have independent reasons for believing in the existence of God that are not vitiated by the existence of evil. That's the logic of the situation, and to address it, you need a logical argument, not emotional appeals to the Holocaust or tsunamis. If you have a logical argument, I'll listen to it...

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  5. No Brandon, I'm reading the tradition as I've been talking to you. I'm interested. I'm not being gratuitous. I just happened to quote Thomas directly above, and pointed to that as obvious evidence.

    'As' is not 'before'. And unfortunately, words mean what they mean, Santi, and this is what you said:

    I discover (to my dismay) that Christopher's explanation for natural evils is, in a more sophisticated form, in Aquinas' Summa Contra Gentiles, Book IV, ch. 52.

    In other words, and in your own words, going into the discussion with Christopher you hadn't even bothered yet to read one of the obvious reference texts.

    If we look at the long line of easily avoidable errors -- category mistakes involving Bayes' Rules;apparent ignorance of objective Bayesianism; misuse of Wittgenstein on language games; repeated misstatements of other people's arguments, such as Jeremy Taylor's here and Gregs' in the previous thread, not only without evidence but actually contrary to the evidence; threadjacking; pompous lecturing of others while repeatedly getting even elementary things wrong -- if we look at this, what confidence should anybody have that Santi Tofarella has any intellectual integrity?

    And this is why the poor-me defense is not going to work: the evidence is in the open. What is getting the reaction here is not the "cruelty of the subculture to strangers" -- never mind, of course, that a number of people have already told you that a significant portion of the people here are not part of the 'subculture' but are here for discussion, on the kinds of topics that you keep highjacking threads away from. What is getting the reaction is the endlessly pouring evidence that Santi has irrational confidence in Santi, one leading to wide-ranging comments in which elementary facts are regularly mischaracterized (not just by a mistake here and there, but repeatedly, and on points that have a prominent place in the comments themselves), attacks on other people's arguments that misrepresent those arguments completely, endless insinuations without evidence that others in the discussion are close-minded, and endless evidence that you haven't bothered to do elementary research to make sure your questions are informed.

    What you are asking aren't hard questions -- because you aren't even doing the elementary work to figure out what people's positions are in order to ask questions that are relevant and not tendentious. (And don't try to lie and pretend you haven't, because there are a number of times people have had to inform you that what you claimed was the Thomist position was not actually the Thomist position.) Perhaps it is bound up in your extraordinary sense of self-importance to think of yourself as asking 'hard questions', but what you're actually doing is failing to engage in the kind of intellectual responsibility genuinely required to ask any kind of hard question. You don't state your questions clearly, or in ways showing you've understood the positions you are questioning; you don't even bother listening to other people in order to figure out what they are saying (as we've seen in your misrepresentations) or doing the elementary research required before mouthing off about a particular topic (as we've seen, e.g., in your ignorant comment about Thomism and self-knowledge). Contrast this with, say, Robert Oerter, and we see your questions are just sloppy.

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  6. Santi,

    Since you have read this section of the Summa Contra Gentiles, do you have an objection that Aqunias did not address? Or an answer to an objection that you think was inadequate? If so can you tell us specifically what your objection is?

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  7. @ Santi

    Do the more sophisticated and intellectual Thomists here adhere to this explanation of natural evils and the body's corruption as a consequence of God withdrawing supernatural protection from Adam and Eve and their descendants? Why does God let composite things like our bodies tend toward their potency into actuality, where once God did not?

    I hold that original sin was a loss of grace, which is never deserved.

    God lets our bodies tend toward corruption because this life is not the only life.

    I do not hold that the world is only a few thousand years old, as Aquinas did, so I do not hold that there was a time when natural evils did not happen.

    Jesus came and was crucified two thousand years ago. Wasn't that supposed to quell God's wrath?

    It was supposed to open up the possibility of salvation and eternal life. Jesus's call for everyone to carry their crosses would have been a bit out of place if there were no crosses.

    But original sin is a theological tenet and there is no presumption that it is demonstrable or that the existence of tsunamis warrants the inference to original sin (Chesterton's remark that original sin is "the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved" notwithstanding, though that was, I think, obviously a comment about human evil rather than natural evil).

    Original sin is not a sufficient reason for tsunamis; that strikes me as a category mistake. The sufficient reason for a tsunami has to do with the substances and agents which yielded the tsunami. (Properly speaking a tsunami is not evil. Its impact on humans is evil and lacks being and goodness.)

    I just did above. I found it in Aquinas.

    As Brandon points out, all evidence testifies that you have just started looking, and if you were looking before, then you were apparently not understanding what you were reading.

    One thing I don't like in your subculture is the cruelty and impatience frequently directed in these threads toward strangers like me.

    Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I do not think I was cruel or impatient toward you in the last comment thread. Go review the evidence if you care to.

    I have been snarky more recently. It began when I asked you what scientific evidence regarding sexuality you thought should act as a corrective to Thomism. You then began insisting that Thomism must be able to incorporate 'gay marriage', masturbation, and contraception. That was your premise: There is some way to do this.

    Of course, in general in philosophy we start from general principles and reason to more specific conclusions (especially in ethics). So it's a bit tough to get it right when you start with the conclusion, but you made a valiant if uninformed effort. But then you continually illustrated your manifest unfamiliarity with the principles you'd have to replace. You did not understand Aristotelian essentialism. You did not understand the Thomistic principle of finality. You kept insisting that all Thomism had to do was "orient to love," failing to take account of the fact that there are different definitions of "love" in the Thomistic synthesis, and that sexual love is not the highest love. When someone pointed out where your conclusions-to-premises reconstruction went afoul of a Thomistic premise, your insistence was that, well, since the conclusion is right (if Thomism can "orient to love," that is), Thomists surely couldn't be so closed-minded as to hold onto their premises (even if they gave arguments for those premises that you were not aware of).

    In short the whole process was so patently unserious that I came to feel like snark and polemics were the only worthy response.

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  8. When we talk about a brute fact being inexplicable, we're not talking about epistemology are we? We're saying by its nature there is no explanation for it.

    Given the above is true, does the person that denies the PSR and permit brute facts also deny that there is a single, consistent truth about reality?

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  9. David T:

    You wrote: "The fact that I nor anyone else can justify the ways of God to you only proves that we aren't God."

    That's not ALL it shows. It shows you're prepared to express high confidence in God's existence, omnipotence, and goodness despite evidence strongly suggesting that something is wrong with your thesis. It means that you are prepared to bracket (set aside for the next life) key data points to maintain your thesis.

    If someone from another religion made similar moves, you would say, "What about the principle of sufficient reason?" In this case, God must have a sufficient reason for withdrawing and withholding his protection from the descendants of Adam for so tortuously long; for allowing them to encounter the full force of a psychopath's or nature's violence when it comes their way; for letting their bodies age, falter, and lapse from mere potency into the actuality of death; for casting the majority of unbelieving humanity into hell to be tortured for ETERNITY after the anguish of this life.

    All these have a sufficient reason, and it can't just be that God has anger issues. If God is good and omnipotent, there must be some sane explanation (you would think) for God withdrawing and withholding his protection from us so utterly. And if Jesus paid the debt incurred by Adam and Eve in God's ledger 2000 years ago, what on Earth is God waiting for to set things right?

    For belief? It wasn't enough for Jesus to die, you have to believe it as well (and that, absent evidence)?

    The whole narrative just seems contrived and wildly implausible when you closely look at it. But Jesus did say to Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen, but believed." Maybe you agree, in the end, with this epistemic method. I don't know.

    But if God's ways are simply off the table in terms of explanation before Judgment Day, then obviously you've opted not to really defend your beliefs with reason, but with selective rationalizations.

    In other words, when you say that you have other good reasons for believing in God that override an otherwise significant objection, you're telling me that you're not really weighing contrary lines of evidence and argument, and reaching a plausible conclusion, but indulging in confirmation bias to arrive at a confident conclusion. You're counting your theory's hits, but bracketing the misses.

    But for me, the pervasiveness of natural and human-caused evils in the world is like what rabbits in the Cambrian would be for an evolutionist: a big red flag that something's wrong with my thesis.

    One rethinks a theory if one is left dumbfounded for an explanation. At least that seems like a good rule of thumb to me.

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  10. Brandon,

    Obviously, it's easier for you to make it about me than to address the sufficient reason Thomas gives for God withdrawing and withholding his protection from the descendants of Adam and Eve, leaving them exposed to degeneration, death, and human and natural evils:

    "[W]e affirm that man was, from the beginning, so fashioned that as long as his reason was subject to God, not only would his lower powers serve him without hindrance; but there would be nothing in his body to lessen its subjection; since whatever was lacking in nature to bring this about God by His grace would supply."

    Is Thomas's solution to the problem of evil defensible, in your view, and do you defend this position? Does God's withdrawal and withholding of protection from Adam and Eve and their descendants for a first sin they could barely have comprehended, justify the ongoing collective crucifixion that is history (including its genocides, wars, plagues, and tsunamis)?

    Julia Sweeney once said, "Jesus had a really bad weekend for your sins." Shouldn't that have been enough? Why 2000 more years of ordeal, including the Holocaust and the 2004 Christmas tsunami? What's the sufficient reason for all of this? God's ongoing anger?

    And threads are not zero-sum games. Many conversations, at numerous levels, can go on at once (and do). You can't "hijack" what's open. People have existential choice. They are adults, they can hear things. They can talk if they want. They don't need you to look after them.

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  11. "Does this sound like a sensible Higher Being providing a sufficient reason for why tsunamis kill hundreds of thousands of people at a single swipe?"

    Santi you seem in every comment to really need to understand in a hell of a lot more (accurate) detail about what exactly it is you are attacking. You seem to get everything misconstrued and juxtaposed.

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  12. No Santi, you are trolling. There is give and take in threads, but it quite normal not wanting trolls to take them over with idiotic nonsense, as you seem intent on doing.

    As you offer nothing to the discussions here, I think it is about time for all concerned to ignore you, at least until you have something to contribute which is not grossly fallacious.

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  13. Yes. I mean, it does happen that other people's queries get pretty much ignored sometimes because some infuriating gas bag distracts everyone.

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  14. @St. Taffy of the Borg:

    "One thing I don't like in your subculture is the cruelty and impatience frequently directed in these threads toward strangers like me. It's hardly Christian (at least from what I understand of Christianity)."

    Oh, poor you, and how wickedly you have been treated by this cruel, cruel, diverse, but cruel "subculture."

    Get over yourself. No one has been cruel to you, and any impatience has been strictly in response to your own propensity to pontificate about what entire theological/philosophical traditions need to come to terms with (because, hey, cyborgs) while almost militantly refusing to learn what they already believe.

    Your thread-diverting diatribes aren't even aimed at specific targets; your sweeping claims about what Thomism (which, by your own admission, you didn't start investigating until well after you'd started denouncing it) should do read like Mad Libs with one of the noun blanks filled in by "Thomism." ("___noun___" should orient to love. It's the only thing it's got left.")

    Not only do you evince no cognizance of real and important distinctions (e.g., between Homosexuals should be persecuted and Hey, guys, no matter how much you love each other, it's not chaste to masturbate into each other's butts), but you can't even be bothered to mount an actual argument. You seem to think it's sufficient to make vague, oracular pronouncements. ("What if procreation is Newton and love is Einstein? Because, hey, cyborgs.")

    If you think Christianity (or for that matter Judaism or "non-denominational" classical theism) somehow mandates that no one ever call BS on you, think again.

    I stopped responding to you a while ago and I don't intend to respond to you further until/unless you demonstrate some willingness actually to engage a point of view other than your own. So far, you've given me no reason whatsoever to believe (and quite a lot of reason not to believe) your claim that you're Humbly Seeking in Good Faith to understand Thomism, Catholicism, Christianity, classical theism, the Principle of Sufficient Reason, the problem of evil, or anything else.

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  15. That's not ALL it shows. It shows you're prepared to express high confidence in God's existence, omnipotence, and goodness despite evidence strongly suggesting that something is wrong with your thesis

    No. You need to do more than just say evil "strongly suggests" something is wrong my my thesis. That proves nothing. I don't think it shows anything of the kind. You need to show, through an argument , that the existence of evil somehow undermines the reasons I hold for believing in the existence of God. You haven't even started to do that.

    The rest of your comment is a combination of appeals to emotion and psychoanalysis of me. Again, none of that proves anything. Still waiting for an actual philosophical argument.

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  16. How does the Thomistic understanding of the PSR differ from say, Pruss's representation of it?

    I would check my copy of Scholastic Metaphysics, but apparently the reason it's not here is because it sold out before my order was shipped. Dr. Feser must be fantastically popular in Canada.

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  17. Santi said,

    "One thing I don't like in your subculture is the cruelty and impatience frequently directed in these threads toward strangers like me. It's hardly Christian (at least from what I understand of Christianity)."

    No one wants to be cruel or impatient towards you but all the same you appear to have a odd habit of just ignoring or glossing over what people say to you – not even disagree just ignore. This is also coupled with a tendency to change the subject (I know I’m not one to preach on this). For instance in the thread were you introduced yourself by mentioning Michael Graziano you made the claim that Thomas’ own philosophy of Nature was at the very best incomplete since it did not take questions of evolution into account. We agreed and pointed you in the direction of a number of contemporary Thomist philosophers who did just that. Yet you came up with that same point again and again both in this and in the more recent exchanges were Evolutionary biology has been discussed. We weren’t expecting you to run out and buy the books or anything – just asking for a quick summary of their stance on the various pertinent issues with which you are of course quite free to disagree with as you as you explain why.

    Also your posts cover such divergent topics that the good points or questions are inevitably obscured by the misunderstandings and topics with have been covered many times before both in the discussion and elsewhere. For instance the questions about homosexuality and Thomism are good, probably the most interesting issue you’ve raised, but any chance of perusing it further is buried by your refusal to engage with the relevant metaphysical framework (again which you are quite free to disagree with though not if you want to give an argument on the Thomist’s own lines) and changing the subject.

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  18. Greg:

    You said something here that is, I believe, very, very important: "I do not hold that the world is only a few thousand years old, as Aquinas did, so I do not hold that there was a time when natural evils did not happen."

    In other words, Thomistic forms of analysis may indeed be true, but Thomas may not have always inferred the correct starting point for reasoning.

    As I've been reading the real essentialism book, what has struck me is how often the author emphasizes that real essences are not always (or even usually) obvious, and that one infers a thing's essence only after looking at evidence and engaging in sustained analysis and argument.

    Put another way, things may well have both structural essences (a description of them that scientists would give to a thing--H2O IS water, etc.), but also a more conventional essence (water appears to us as a solid, gas, or liquid and has the power to dissolve sugars etc.). But it takes work to find it.

    So here's my take thus far.

    I'm impressed with Thomism's commitment to reason--deeply, deeply impressed, but I'm not sure whether essences really exist or whether what is being called an essence is just an artifact of the way we use language.

    I go back and forth in my own mind between (1) the value of Thomism's genus/species definitional precision and the generalizations about individual cases drawn from these; and (2) the value of Wittgenstein's "family resemblances" and evolution's exploitation of novelty.

    In any event, I see how Thomism, Wittgenstein, and evolution are useful tools for analysis, and I don't have any way to know which one is essentially true (the world looks the same whether we say essences are "really real" or whether we emphasize "family resemblances" and treat individuals as sui generis, etc).

    So my question is: what if the essence of a thing is much, much more complicated and multiple than the conventional way that traditional Thomism chops things up? In other words, what if essences exist, but they're more like the trinity than Islam-like monotheism?

    Catholics, being trinitarians, should, of all people, be able to get their heads around the idea that the essence of a thing might be one and multiple at the same time.

    And this brings me to the penis. What if Thomas was simply too medieval in understanding to think clearly about what it means for a LARGE BRAINED PRIMATE to have a penis? When you combine a big brain with hands and sex organs in an animal, you get uses that are far more creative than a small brained animal with the same sorts of sex organs, but no hands. Context is important. Ongoing argument is important. Chimps masturbate, for example, but I presume that cats don't even try (or think of trying), even by rubbing themselves against a surface, etc.

    In other words, there may be real essences that are much more subtle in their proper uses (for love, bonding, pleasure) than medieval scholasticism imagined, and such uses are in keeping with God's love.

    The same goes for gender or any other essentialized trait. How does having a BIG BRAIN change the equation of what the proper use of an organ is?

    So I guess I'm asking the question: can Thomism be put to use for a revived and revolutionary analysis of essences--REAL ESSENCES--as opposed to functioning as a tool for old guard opposition to change (FAKE ESSENCES treated as real)?

    If essentialism is the truth, and the goal is the truth (and not merely the protection of the historical trajectory of Thomism thus far), where is the Einstein or Neils Bohr of Thomism?

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  19. Surely it's not just that one is restricted to things that exist.

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  20. Daniel,

    I think in my response to Greg directly above, I responded to what you call "the relevant metaphysical framework" for discussing homosexuality, the proper use of the sex organs, etc.

    Do you agree that I'm on track, or is that not what you mean when you tell me to attend to "the relevant metaphysical framework" for discussing homosexuality?

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  21. @ Santi

    In other words, Thomistic forms of analysis may indeed be true, but Thomas may not have always inferred the correct starting point for reasoning.

    That is not a paraphrase or implication of what I said. Aquinas's view of the creation narrative is not a "starting point." It is not a philosophical thesis either.

    I go back and forth in my own mind between (1) the value of Thomism's genus/species definitional precision and the generalizations about individual cases drawn from these; and (2) the value of Wittgenstein's "family resemblances" and evolution's exploitation of novelty.

    (1) and (2) are not inconsistent. Thomism certainly does not hold that all categories in our natural language are natural kinds.

    So my question is: what if the essence of a thing is much, much more complicated and multiple than the conventional way that traditional Thomism chops things up? In other words, what if essences exist, but they're more like the trinity than Islam-like monotheism?

    Do you mean: Consider a substance. It has an essence. Its essence may be more complicated than Thomism says it is? (The Trinity example seems to suggest otherwise but I don't know what you have in mind there.)

    If that is the question, then the answer is yes, because there are many essences that "traditional Thomism" does not say anything about. There are also cases of revision in light of scientific data (ie. celestial bodies).

    What if Thomas was simply too medieval in understanding to think clearly about what it means for a LARGE BRAINED PRIMATE to have a penis?

    I don't think the "modern" finding that humans have hands, are smarter than non-rational animals, and are therefore capable of doing more things that they desire to do is all that modern.

    Also it is not correct to imply, as you did in the last comment thread as well, that sexual morality is derived from the "fact" that penises are just for reproduction. The ends are properly attributed to the substance, which is the person, and Thomas would not hold that sex is just for reproduction.

    For Aquinas, for a primate to have a "big brain" is what makes him capable of acting morally. It's actually the reason why humans are moral subjects while dogs, dolphins, and chimps are not.

    Was he simply "too medieval"? I don't know what that means. I won't treat it as an objection, because if it were meant to be an objection, it would be a fallacy.

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  22. BMiller:

    You asked if there was anything else in the fourth book of Aquinas' Summa Contra Gentiles, chapter 52, that I disagreed with.

    I don't know if I would call this a disagreement, but just an observation: there is quite a dark vision of the world on display in the chapter.

    At one point (for example), Aquinas speaks of all humanity as "children of wrath."

    In other words, God is mad at us, and is actively allowing our ongoing punishment.

    But there was a time when God supernaturally and actively protected Adam and Eve from corruption, suffering, and death. It was a grace, a gift God gave his two new creatures. God didn't have to do it. But he actively, in each moment, did it.

    Then they sinned, and God withdrew this grace from even their descendants, placing the whole species "under wrath."

    It's a bleak view of God. It's a bleak view of humanity.

    And from this (in the same chapter), you then get Aquinas' twists and turns as to whether Jesus got infected (as we have) with Adam's corruption. He argues not (the Virgin birth, and all).

    Thomas also makes reference to intercourse, the very deed, as protected from being a sinful act only because one has taken certain personal acts of grace from the Church (if I read that part correctly).

    But what if Thomas has started his reasoning about what's essential about humanity in the wrong place? What if Thomas's essentialism is FAKE ESSENTIALISM as opposed to REAL ESSENTIALISM (what we really are, and what things really are)?

    So much depends on how you start the engine of your syllogisms to running.

    If death has always been in the cosmos (long before Adam and Eve hit the scene), and there was in fact no Adam and Eve who lived in Mesopotamia 6,000 years ago (as science clearly tells us), then what's really essential about us? Really, really essential?

    Maybe it's something quite different from what Aquinas ever imagined.

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  23. Greg,

    You wrote: "The ends are properly attributed to the substance, which is the person, and Thomas would not hold that sex is just for reproduction."

    Okay, then based on this, here's a question: What, in your view, is essential about woman qua woman that makes it wrong for a particular woman who identifies as lesbian to marry another woman that she LOVES? And if they raise, say, two children acquired by artificial insemination from a sperm donor male friend, (toward whom both women also feel deep love and friendly affection), why is that wrong?

    Isn't this the sort of behavior that a BIG BRAINED primate might, by its very nature, creatively engage in that a small brained primate could never even think of? And it heightens the expression of love and acceptance in the world. Three adults and two children are oriented toward one another in a greater circle of love and bonding. What's wrong about this arrangement, and why is the use of artificial technology for insemination wrong (if you think it is, in this instance)? If God gave humans large brains along with hands and sex organs, how does one go about determining the parameters for their essential and proper usage, aside from "orient to an ever greater circle of love"?

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  24. Scott,

    You wrote: "it's not chaste to masturbate into each other's butts"

    My question for you: What, in your view, is essential about man qua man that makes it wrong for an individual man to fall in love with another man and express that love sexually?

    I appreciate your opinion on gay marriage. I know you think it should be legal. But I'm asking, even as you show tolerance for gay subculture, why you yourself take homosexual behavior to be disordered and wrong. I'm looking for the philosophical justification grounded in your essentialist views, not the pointing to a Bible verse.

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  25. @ Santi

    I will just quote myself from the last comment thread. Some of these don't answer direct questions but bespeak Catholic sexual ethics in general.

    What, in your view, is essential about woman qua woman that makes it wrong for a particular woman who identifies as lesbian to marry another woman that she LOVES?

    "Marriage, on the Catholic and Thomist understanding, is a pre-political and pre-ecclesial institution. Its purpose is not 'bonding', 'respectful, dignified coupling', or affirming people who do not feel affirmed. The 'bodily component' is not all that is relevant, but it is a necessary condition without which there is no marriage. There is not an option of extending marriage to others who cannot instantiate the particular values for which marriage exists; one is then simply introducing a term 'marriage(2)' and using it to refer to a collection of distinct institutions. The motivation is not the nature of marriage or the people involved; it is including people under a distinction that they cannot instantiate."

    However, this only kind of answers your questions, for it does not imply that it is wrong for a woman to marry another woman. It implies that it is impossible.

    But perhaps more to the point: why is homosexual intercourse wrong?

    "The problem with homosexual intercourse is not just that it does not result in reproduction. The sexual faculties are directed toward procreation which also involves the raising of children and the union of husband and wife. It is the openness to procreation that properly directs the sexual act [and the marriage itself] to its natural end (and the attendant ends in the union of the spouses), even if reproduction in the given instance does not obtain."

    "I'll add (borrowing an example from a new natural lawyer, though it is consistent with the old natural law position as well) that the natural law understanding is not that sex is just for procreation. The natural lawyer may insist that sex strictly for the purpose of procreation is wrong, i.e. if Henry VIII intended to dispose of one of his wives after getting a male heir, and only engaged with her sexually insofar as he meant to obtain a male heir, then a natural lawyer would critique him--for the sexual act was instrumentalized for an end other than the marital union of the spouses for the purpose of reproduction (which also includes raising any child jointly).

    "The end of procreation does not make procreation a sufficient condition for sex to be permissible and good. Likewise, it would not follow that you can stipulate that love is the end of sex, such that then love between those engaging would be sufficient for the act to be good."

    "Developing that last point: as a social institution (which the Church holds marriage to be, and which I think the natural institution of marriage clearly is), marriage is an institution for the development and growth of families, so openness to children is absolutely essential to it. Children cannot result from anal sex, and children result only accidentally from contraceptive sex [so such sexual acts are not aimed toward the marriage and are not open to children]. This is why natural lawyers are very particulars with the intentions that are consistent with natural family planning; if it is undertaken with a contraceptive mentality, then it is immoral [because it frustrates the purpose of sex in the context of natural marriage]."

    Isn't this the sort of behavior that a BIG BRAINED primate might, by its very nature, creatively engage in that a small brained primate could never even think of?

    Uh, sure. Another "sort of behavior that a BIG BRAINED primate might, by its very nature, creatively engage in that a small brained primate could never even think of" is organized crime. Or, in general, the rational seeking of any evil "under the aspect of a good" is par for the course for big-brained primates.

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  26. What's wrong about this arrangement, and why is the use of artificial technology for insemination wrong (if you think it is, in this instance)?

    Because it does not realize the goods essential to marriage, enumerated above. The fact that some act results in children is not sufficient for its being moral.

    There are other more pragmatic issues with such behaviors, as they pertain to the common good (for families are the basis elements of society), but they are less directly natural law issues. For example, I would object to the commodification of children that appears to attend contraception and artificial reproduction. (A Lesbian couple recently sued, or tried to, because the sperm bank gave them a black baby.) Then there is the issue of things like abortion qua eugenics--we wanted a child, not a child with Downs syndrome. (That was another recent item in the news.) There is the idea that children need not be gifts of a fruitful marital union but are rather something to be planned and obtained in the "right" quantity. Hence sub-replacement birth rates in virtually every developed nation. Those are, I think, problems with the claim that 'same-sex marriage' is morally neutral, for its normalization also attends the instrumentalization of marriage. (On that count I repeat that there is nothing particular about the natural lawyer's problem with homosexuality. The lion's share of the blame for these attitudes goes to heterosexuals who destroyed the public understanding of marriage decades ago.)

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  27. I often hear more recent philosophers discuss building facts into their ontologies as "primitive". For instance, several ersatzer modal realists build modality into their ontologies as primitive. But if for PSR defenders everything must have an explanation, can PSR defenders have primitive facts?

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  28. A notion's being primitive does not imply that it is without explanation.

    Thomists take actuality, for example, to be primitive. But a particular thing's having actuality requires an explanation.

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  29. Greg,

    You wrote that one reason homosexual intercourse is wrong is because "it does not result in reproduction."

    You also said, "The sexual faculties are directed toward procreation which also involves the raising of children and the union of husband and wife. It is the openness to procreation that properly directs the sexual act [and the marriage itself] to its natural end..."

    You also said: "[A]s a social institution (which the Church holds marriage to be, and which I think the natural institution of marriage clearly is), marriage is an institution for the development and growth of families, so openness to children is absolutely essential to it. Children cannot result from anal sex, and children result only accidentally from contraceptive sex."

    Thus, here's what I'm hearing you say your premises are: (1) sex's goal should be directed ultimately to reproduction; (2) marriage is for the rearing of children and the union of man and woman; (3) marriage is naturally a social institution for promoting "the growth of families." It is not not naturally a private arrangement between two persons and God; and (4) neither anal sex nor contraception can further marriage's ends, which are reproduction, rearing children, bonding man to woman, and promoting the growth of families.

    These are the premises from which you are reasoning, and you appear to be satisfied with your justifications for starting your reasoning where you do. You believe that these generalizations should never give ground to particular desires or circumstances. To do so is immoral.

    But from my point of you, your definition of marriage is culturally conditioned, not essential to the nature of human beings qua human beings. I think that Thomistic essentialism could (if it wanted to) shift the definition of marriage to incorporate a broader range of possibilities for the institution, placing the focus on love.

    From my vantage, the big brain that God (if God exists) gave humans calls all bets off in terms of the sorts of generalizations you make above about how human beings ought to arrange themselves into a greater circle of love and orientation toward God.

    You and I simply have a strong difference of opinion in terms of where to start one's reasoning about these matters. I think that anywhere one starts the sort of reasoning we are both attempting to engage in, there is question-begging involved. It can't be avoided. It's not math, and the axioms we start our reasoning with are not written anywhere in stone.

    From my vantage, you and the Church are making it up as you go along, favoring conservative values temperamentally, rationalizing them, and not acknowledging this fact.

    From your vantage, you think I'm making it up as I'm going along as well, without any ultimate ground (traditional or otherwise) for my reasoning to proceed.

    Maybe we're both right, and that strikes me as an impasse.

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  30. No one cares what your vantage point is unless you can make it into a proper argument that can critique the Thomist position. You aren't even attempting to do that.

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  31. @ Santi

    You wrote that one reason homosexual intercourse is wrong is because "it does not result in reproduction."

    Yes. In this thread I said, "Thomas would not hold that sex is just for reproduction." In the other thread I said, "The problem with homosexual intercourse is not just that it does not result in reproduction." (That is a bit of a loose way of putting it; the issue is that it cannot be open to reproduction, not that it doesn't result in it.)

    (1) sex's goal should be directed ultimately to reproduction

    But this is not strictly true. It is subject to the qualifications I have given.

    I think that Thomistic essentialism could (if it wanted to) shift the definition of marriage to incorporate a broader range of possibilities for the institution, placing the focus on love.

    What does "if it wanted to" mean? If I start with a conclusion, then perhaps I can manufacture a theory (or modify an existing theory) to arrive at my desired conclusion, but that is hardly philosophy.

    From "within" the tradition, I respond that the definition of marriage cannot "shift." First, it is inadequate to stipulate that one should "plac[e] the focus on love." What does that mean? Love is not strictly sexual; the highest forms of love, in fact, are not sexual. Furthermore there are lots of institutions and human relationships that are characterized by love but don't depend on the redefinition of another institution that has its own specific purpose and teleology. The type of love involved here has to be specified. But validating the romantic love of two people is not the purpose of marriage either; no institution is needed for that.

    Does marriage remain an institution characterized by sexual intimacy and exclusivity? There is the issue that anal sex, oral sex, and contraceptive sex are in a relevant sense not even sex. There ceases to be a reason, then, that marriage should be a sexual relationship; two (or more) people can engage in it if they want to, and can "have kids" if they want to, or they can do neither. It becomes a proxy for any relationship. (On what basis would one deny this?) Traditionally marriage has required consummation; a marriage lacking consummation is invalid.

    From my vantage, the big brain that God (if God exists) gave humans calls all bets off in terms of the sorts of generalizations you make above about how human beings ought to arrange themselves into a greater circle of love and orientation toward God.

    As I implied/stated in my last comment, the big brain is really not doing a whole lot of work here. The capability of engaging in somewhat complex behaviors in service of our desires is not what Thomists have in mind when they talk about "ends."

    From my vantage, you and the Church are making it up as you go along, favoring conservative values temperamentally, rationalizing them, and not acknowledging this fact.

    Perhaps.

    Rhetorical arguments can also be made. The issues of the sexual revolution are tied together, and sociologically you are not likely to stave off the bad ones. I regard abortion and the general instrumentalization of children that attends "modern family planning" to be some of the gravest consequences of the sexual revolution, along with the predominance of rape (ie. on college campus) that people are incapable of talking seriously about as a result of political correctness. I think the attitudes underlying such phenomena also manifest in many of these other issues: the relationship of reason to the passions, the treatment of love as essentially sexual.

    Another instrumentalization of children that has been in the news: here. (Warning: This is explicit.) I really have no words for this.

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  32. @John West:

    "But if for PSR defenders everything must have an explanation, can PSR defenders have primitive facts?"

    To add to what Greg said, that some state of affairs (using states of affairs for illustration) is primitive just means that is is not conceptually, or ontologically reducible to something else more fundamental. To say the contrary would seemingly leave us with a vicious regress in our hands.

    Identity (*) is not analyzable or reducible to some other fact, but this does not mean that we cannot offer answers to questions, or give criteria for the identity conditions of this or that object, etc. and etc.

    (*) Some philosophers do think identity can be analyzed, or reduced to something other more fundamental. I think not, but anyway, this is just an example for illustrative purposes.

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  33. Greg and grodrigues,

    Thank you. I poorly understood the meaning of primitive. Now I understand.

    Now for a faintly silly question. Why must the PSR lead to an agential explanation of the universe? The laws of nature are probably contingent. I understand that. But couldn't the universe have started from a necessarily existing terminus multiverse (with its own set of laws)? I only ask if it's possible, not if it's probable given Ockham's razor.

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  34. This may be somewhat tangential to the main discussion but I think it is in the same orbit as it touches upon explanations. I've beeen trying to get a better grasp of the Aristotelian principle that "Nature does nothing in vain." I know Aquinas uses this principle to argue that man's natural desire for eternal beatitude must be satisfiable.

    My question is: How do we reason to this principle? Is it merely by induction, i.e., every other natural desire that we find among creatures has some object to satisfy it, and thus it would be ad hoc or tendentious to claim human beatitude as an exception? Or is there more to it than that?

    The "natural desire" argument is very interesting to me but many today would be puzzled by the suggesiton that it requires some ultimate explanation; it's perhaps a prime case of people treating some fact as "brute," though probably implicitly for most.

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  35. @John West:

    "Why must the PSR lead to an agential explanation of the universe?"

    Why should it? And why should anyone be worried about the defect? Whether the move from "Argument X proves that God exists" to "God is an agent" is valid or not, depends on the specific structure of argument X (or set of arguments) not on any considerations from PSR, which is too blunt a cudgel to yield such a precise conclusion.

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  36. grodrigues,

    Fair enough.

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  37. Random thoughts: It occurs to me that Ed’s argument in General Scholastic Metaphysics as to why Thomists should not fear PSR type arguments based on the convertibility of the Transcendentals ‘Truth’ and ‘Being’ also constitutes a point in favour of Conceivability Arguments. Well done Ed – that’s proper 'hard' metaphysical work.

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