Thursday, August 21, 2014

Science dorks


Suppose you’re trying to teach basic arithmetic to someone who has gotten it into his head that the whole subject is “unscientific,” on the grounds that it is non-empirical.  With apologies to the famous Mr. Parker (pictured at left), let’s call him “Peter.”  Peter’s obviously not too bright, but he thinks he is very bright since he has internet access and skims a lot of Wikipedia articles about science.  Indeed, he proudly calls himself a “science dork.”  Patiently, albeit through gritted teeth, you try to get him to see that two and two really do make four.  Imagine it goes like this:

You: OK, Peter, let’s try again.  Suppose you’re in the garden and you see two worms crawling around.  Then two more worms crawl over.  How many worms do you have now?

Peter: “Crawling” means moving around on your hands and knees.  Worms don’t have hands and knees, so they don’t “crawl.”  They have hair-like projections called setae which make contact with the soil, and their bodies are moved by two sets of muscles, an outer layer called the circular muscles and an inner layer known as the longitudinal muscles.  Alternation between these muscles causes a series of expansions and contractions of the worm’s body.

You: That’s all very impressive, but you know what I meant, Peter, and the specific way worms move around is completely irrelevant in any case.  The point is that you’d have four worms.

Peter: Science is irrelevant, huh?  Well, do you drive a car?  Use a cell phone?  Go to the doctor?  Science made all that possible.

You: Yes, fine, but what does that have to do with the subject at hand?  What I mean is that how worms move is irrelevant to how many worms you’d have in the example.  You’d have four wormsThat’s true whatever science ends up telling us about worms.

Peter: You obviously don’t know anything about science.  If you divide a planarian flatworm, it will grow into two new individual flatworms.  So, if that’s the kind of worm we’re talking about, then if you have two worms and then add two more, you might end up with five worms, or even more than five.  So much for this a priori “arithmetic” stuff. 

You: That’s a ridiculous argument!  If you’ve got only two worms and add another two worms, that gives you four worms, period.  That one of those worms might later go on to be divided in two doesn’t change that!

Peter: Are you denying the empirical evidence about how flatworms divide?

You: Of course not.  I’m saying that that empirical evidence simply doesn’t show what you think it does

Peter: This is well-confirmed science.  What motivation could you possibly have for rejecting what we know about the planarian flatworm, apart from a desperate attempt to avoid falsification of your precious “arithmetic”? 

You: Peter, I think you might need a hearing aid.  I just got done saying that I don’t reject it.  I’m saying that it has no bearing one way or the other on this particular question of whether two and two make four.  Whether we’re counting planarian flatworms or Planters peanuts is completely irrelevant.

Peter: So arithmetic is unfalsifiable.  Unlike scientific claims, for which you can give rational arguments.

You: That’s a false choice.  The whole point is that argumentation of the sort that characterizes empirical science is not the only kind of rational argumentation.  For example, if I can show by reductio ad absurdum that your denial of some claim of arithmetic is false, then I’ve given a rational justification of that claim.

Peter: No, because you haven’t offered any empirical evidence.

You: You’ve just blatantly begged the question!  Whether all rational argumentation involves the mustering of empirical evidence is precisely what’s at issue.

Peter: So you say now.  But earlier you gave the worm example as an argument for the claim that two and two make four.  You appeal to empirical evidence when it suits you and then retreat into unfalsifiability when that evidence goes against you.

You: You completely misunderstand the nature of arithmetical claims. They’re not empirical claims in the same sense that claims about flatworm physiology are.  But that doesn’t mean that they have no relevance to the empirical world.  Given that it’s a necessary truth that two and two make four, naturally you are going to find that when you observe two worms crawl up beside two other worms, there will be four worms there.  But that’s not “empirical evidence” in the sense that laboratory results are empirical evidence.  It’s rather an illustration of something that is going to be the case whatever the specific empirical facts turn out to be.

Peter: See, every time I call attention to the scientific evidence that refutes your silly “arithmetic,” you claim that I “just don’t understand” it. Well, I understand it well enough.  It’s all about trying to figure out flatworms and other things science tells us about, but by appealing to intuitions or word games about “necessary truth” or just making stuff up.  It’s imaginary science.  What we need is real, empirical science, like physics.

You: That makes no sense at all.  Physics presupposes arithmetic!  How the hell do you think physicists do their calculations?

Peter: Whatever.  Because science.  Because I @#$%&*! love science.

The Peter principle

Now, replace Peter’s references to “arithmetic” with “metaphysics” and you get the sort of New Atheist type who occasionally shows up in the comboxes here triumphantly to “refute” the argument from motion (say) with something cribbed from The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Physics.  And like Peter, these critics are, despite their supreme self-confidence, in fact utterly clueless about the nature of the ideas they are attacking.

Like arithmetic, the key metaphysical ideas that underlie Aristotelian-Thomistic arguments for God’s existence -- the theory of act and potency, the principle of causality, the principle of finality, and so forth -- certainly have implications for what we observe in the empirical world, but, equally certainly, they are not going to be falsified by anything we observe in the empirical world.  And like arithmetic, this in no way makes them any less rationally defensible than the claims of empirical science are.  On the contrary, and once again like arithmetic, they are presupposed by any possible empirical science. 

That by no means entails that empirical science is irrelevant to metaphysics and philosophy of nature.  But how it is relevant must be properly understood.  How we apply general metaphysical principles to various specific empirical phenomena is something to which a knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology, etc. is absolutely essential.  The metaphysical facts about the essence of water specifically, or the nature of local motion specifically, or bacterial physiology specifically are not going to be determined from the armchair.  But the most general metaphysical principles themselves are not matters for empirical science to settle, precisely because they concern what must be true if there is to be any empirical world, and thus any empirical science, in the first place.

Hence, consider hylemorphism.  Should we think of water as a compound of substantial form and prime matter?  Or should we think of it as an aggregate of substances, and thus as having a merely accidental form that configures secondary matter?  The empirical facts about water are highly relevant to this sort of question.  However, whether the distinctions between substantial and accidental form and prime versus secondary matter have application at all in the empirical world is not something that can possibly be settled by empirical science.  In short, whether hylemorphism as a general framework is correct is a question for metaphysics and philosophy of nature, not for empirical science; but how the hylemorphic analysis gets applied to specific cases is very definitely a question for empirical science.

Or consider the principle of finality.  Should we think of sublunar bodies as naturally “directed toward” movement toward the center of the earth, specifically, as Aristotle thought?  Or, following Newton, should we say that there is no difference between the movements toward which sublunar and superlunar bodies are naturally “directed,” and nothing special about movement toward the center the earth specifically?  The empirical facts as uncovered by physics and astronomy are highly relevant to this sort of question.  However, whether there is any immanent finality or “directedness” at all in nature is not something that can possibly be settled by physical science.  In short, whether the principle of finality is correct is a question for metaphysics and philosophy of nature, not for empirical science; but how that principle gets applied to specific cases is very definitely a question for empirical science.

Or consider the principle of causality, according to which any potential that is actualized is actualized by something already actual.  Should we think of the local motion of a projectile as violent, or as natural insofar as it is inertial?  Should we think of inertial motion as a real change, the actualization of a potential?  Or should we think of it as a “state”?  How we characterize the cause of such local motions will be deeply influenced by how we answer questions like these (which I’ve discussed in detail here and elsewhere), and thus by physics.  But whether there is some sort of cause is not something that can possibly be settled by physics.  In short, whether the principle of causality is true is a question for metaphysics and philosophy of nature, not for empirical science; but how that principle gets applied to specific cases is very definitely a question for empirical science.

Why the theory of act and potency, the principle of causality, the principle of finality, hylemorphism, essentialism, etc. must be presupposed by any possible physical science, is something I have addressed many times, and at greatest length and in greatest depth in Scholastic Metaphysics.  The point to emphasize for present purposes is that the arguments for God’s existence one finds in classical (Neoplatonic/Aristotelian/Scholastic) philosophy, such as Aquinas’s Five Ways, rest on general metaphysical principles like these, and not on any specific claims in physics, biology, etc.  Hence when examples of natural phenomena are used in expositions of the arguments -- such as the example of a hand using a stick to move a stone, often used in expositions of the First Way -- one completely misunderstands the nature of the arguments if one raises quibbles from physics about the details of the examples, because nothing essential to the arguments rides on those details.  The examples are meant merely as illustrations of deeper metaphysical principles that necessarily hold whatever the empirical details turn out to be. 

For example, years ago I had an atheist reader who was obsessed with the idea that there is a slight time lag between the motion of the stick that moves the stone, and the motion of the stone itself, as if this had devastating implications for Aquinas’ First Way.  This is like Peter’s supposition that the biology of planarian flatworms is relevant to evaluating whether two and two make four.  It completely misses the point, completely misunderstands the nature of the issues at hand.  Yet no matter how many times you explain this to certain New Atheist types, they just keep repeating the same tired, irrelevant physics trivia, like a moth that keeps banging into the window thinking it’s going to get through it next time. 

Of course, often these “science dorks” don’t in fact really know all that much science.  They are not, after all, really interested in science per se, but rather in what they falsely perceive to be a useful cudgel with which to beat philosophy and theology.  But even when they do know some science, they don’t understand it as well as they think they do, because they don’t understand the nature of an empirical scientific claim, as opposed to a metaphysical or philosophical claim.  Just as someone who not only listens to a lot of music but also knows some music theory is going to understand music better than the person who merely listens to a lot of it, so too the person who knows both philosophy and science is going to understand science better than the person who knows only science.

Vince Torley, the Science Guy

Anyway, it turns out that you needn’t be a New Atheist, or indeed even an atheist at all, to deploy the inept “Peter”-style objection.  You might have another motivation -- say, if you’re an “Intelligent Design” publicist who is really, really steamed at some longtime Thomist critic of ID, and keen to “throw the kitchen sink” at him in the hope that something finally sticks.  Case in point: our old pal Vincent Torley, whose characteristic “ready, fire, aim” style of argument we saw on display in a recent exchange over matters related to ID.  In a follow-up post, Torley devotes what amounts to 15 single-spaced pages to what he evidently thinks is a massive take-down of the version of the Aristotelian argument from motion (the first of Aquinas’s Five Ways) that I presented in a talk which can be found at Vimeo.  (Longtime readers will note that verbose as 15 single-spaced pages sounds for a blog post, it’s actually relatively short for the notoriously logorrheic Mr. Torley.)

Now, what does that argument have to do with ID or the other issues discussed in our recent exchange?  Well, nothing, of course.  But his motivation for attacking it is clear enough from some of the remarks Torley makes in the post, especially when read in light of some historical context.  A quick search at Uncommon Descent (an ID site to which Torley regularly contributes, and where this new post appears) reveals that over the last four years or so, Torley has written at least fifteen (!) Torley-length posts criticizing various things I’ve said, usually about ID but sometimes about other, unrelated matters.  (And no, that’s not counting the occasional positive post he’s written about me, nor is it counting critical posts written about me by other UD contributors.  Nor is it counting the many lengthy comments critical of me that Torley has posted over the years in various comboxes, both here at my blog and elsewhere.)  An uncharitable reader might conclude that Torley has some kind of bee in his bonnet.  A charitable reader might conclude pretty much the same thing.

Now, how Torley wants to spend his time is his business, and I’m flattered by the attention.  The trouble is that he always seems to think he has scored some devastating point, and gets annoyed when I don’t acknowledge or respond to it.  In fact, as my longtime readers know from experience, Torley regularly just gets things wrong -- and, again, at unbelievable, mind-numbing length.  (You’ll recall that the last blog post of his to which I replied alone came to 42 single-spaced pages.)  There is only so much of one’s life that one can devote to reading and responding to tedious misrepresentations set out in prolix and ephemeral blog posts.  As I don’t need to tell most readers, I’ve got an extremely hectic writing and teaching schedule, not to mention a wife, six children, and other family members who have a claim on my time.  For some bizarre reason there is a steady stream of people who seem to think this means that I simply must have the time to respond to whatever treatise they’ve written up over the weekend, when common sense should have made it clear that this is precisely the reverse of the truth.  In Torley’s case, while I did reply to some of his early responses to my criticisms of ID, in recent years I simply haven’t had the time, nor -- as his remarks have become ever more frequent, long-winded, occasionally shrill, and manifestly designed to try to get attention -- the patience either. 

This evidently irks him, which brings us back to his recent remarks about my defense of a First Way-style argument.  Four years ago Torley expressed the view that “Professor Feser[‘s]… ability to articulate and defend Aquinas’ Five Ways to a 21st century audience is matchless.”  Three years ago he advised an atheist blogger: “I would also urge you to read Professor Edward Feser’s book, Aquinas.  It’s about the best defense of Aristotelian Thomism that you are ever likely to read, it’s less than 200 pages long, and its arguments merit very serious consideration. You would be ill-advised to dismiss it out of hand.”  Fast forward to the present and Torley’s attitude is mysteriously different.  Now he assures us, in this latest post, that “the holes in Feser’s logic are so wide that anyone could drive a truck through them” and that the argument “contains so many obvious logical errors that I could not in all good conscience recommend showing it to atheists” (!)

Now, Torley is well aware that the argument I presented in the video is merely a popularized version -- presented before an audience of non-philosophers, and where I had a time limit -- of the same argument I defended in my book on Aquinas.  And yet though four years ago he said that my “ability to articulate and defend” that argument is “matchless,” today he says that the “holes” in the argument are “so wide that anyone could drive a truck through them”!  Three years ago he told an atheist that what I said in that book (including, surely, what I said about the First Way) is “about the best defense of Aristotelian Thomism that you are ever likely to read” and that atheists “would be ill-advised to dismiss it out of hand”; today he says he “could not in all good conscience recommend showing [Feser’s argument] to atheists”!

What has changed in the intervening years?  Well, for one thing, while I am still critical of ID, I no longer bother replying to most of what Torley writes.  Hence his complaint in this latest post that “Feser has yet to respond to my critique of his revamped version of Aquinas’ Fifth Way.”  Evidently Torley thinks some score-settling is in order.  He writes:

[I]f the argument [presented in the Vimeo talk] fails, Feser, who has ridiculed Intelligent Design proponents for years for making use of probabilistic arguments, will have to publicly eat his words… (emphasis in the original)

To be sure, Torley adds the following:

Let me state up-front that I am not claiming in this post that Aquinas’ cosmological argument is invalid; on the contrary, I consider it to be a deeply insightful argument, and I would warmly recommend Professor R. C. Koons’ paper, A New Look at the Cosmological Argument… I note, by the way, that Professor Koons is a Thomist who defends the legitimacy of Intelligent Design arguments. (emphasis in the original)

So, it isn’t the argument itself that is bad, but just my presentation of it -- even though Torley himself has praised my earlier presentations of it!  Apparently, the key to giving a good First Way-style argument is this: If in your other work you “defend the legitimacy of Intelligent Design arguments,” then your take on Aquinas is to be “warmly recommended.”  But if you have “ridiculed Intelligent Design proponents for years,” then even if your take on Aquinas is otherwise “matchless,” you must be made to “publicly eat your words.”  It seems that for Torley, what matters at the end of the day when evaluating the work of a fellow theist is whether he is on board with IDID über alles.  (And Torley has the nerve to accuse me of a “My way or the highway” attitude!)

Certainly it is hard otherwise to explain Torley’s shameless flouting of the principle of charity.  Torley surely knows that the presentation of the argument to which he is responding is a popular version, presented before a lay audience, where I had an hour-long time limit.  He knows that given those constraints I could not possibly have given a thorough presentation of the argument or answered every possible objection.  He knows that I have presented the argument in a more academic style in various places, such as in Aquinas and in my ACPQ article “Existential Inertia and the Five Ways.”  He knows that I have answered various objections to my version of the argument both in those writings and in a great many blog posts.  Yet his method is essentially to ignore all that and focus just on what I say in the video itself.

And sure enough, in good “science dork” fashion, Torley complains that the examples I use in the talk “are marred by faulty science.”  Hence, in response to my remark that a desk which holds up a cup is able to do so only because it is in turn being held up by the earth, Torley, like a central casting New Atheist combox troll, starts to channel Bill Nye the Science Guy:

How does the desk hold the coffee cup up? From a physicist’s point of view, it would be better to ask: why doesn’t the cup fall through the desk? In a nutshell, there’s a force, related to a system’s effort to get rid of potential energy, that pushes the atoms in the cup and the atoms in the desk away from each other, once they get very close together.  The Earth has nothing to do with the desk’s power to act in this way…

In any case, the desk doesn’t keep the coffee cup “up,” so much as away: the atoms comprising the wood of which the desk is made keep the atoms in the cup from getting too close…

[Etc. etc.]

Well, after reading what I said above, you know what is wrong with this.  And Torley should know it too, because he is a regular reader of this blog and I’ve made the same point many times (e.g. here, here, here, here, and here).  The point, again, is that the scientific details of the specific examples used to illustrate the metaphysical principles underlying Thomistic arguments for God’s existence are completely irrelevant.  In the case at hand, the example of the cup being held up by the desk which is in turn being held up by the earth was intended merely to introduce, for a lay audience, the technical notion of an essentially ordered series of actualizers of potentiality.  Once that notion is understood, the specific example used to illustrate it drops out as inessential.  The notion has application whatever the specific physical details turn out to be.  When a physicist illustrates a point by asking us to imagine what we would experience if we fell into a black hole or rode on a beam of light, no one thinks it clever to respond that photons are too small to sit on or that we would be ripped apart by gravity before we made it into the black hole.  Torley’s tiresomely pedantic and point-missing objection is no better.

Anyway, that’s what Torley says in the first section of his 15 single-spaced page opus.  Torley writes:

For the record, I will not be retracting anything I say in this post. Professor Feser may try to accuse me of misrepresenting his argument, but readers can view the video for themselves and see that I have set it out with painstaking clarity.

…as if stubbornly refusing to listen to a potential criticism somehow inoculates him in advance against it!

Well, don’t worry Vince, I won’t be accusing you of misrepresenting me in whatever it is you have to say in the remainder of this latest post of yours.  I haven’t bothered to read it.

390 comments:

  1. @Vincent Torley
    @Edward Feser
    Okay. I have a simple idea. Rather than this passionate back and forth if Vincent has an argument can he present it in 1000 words maximum on the topic of ‘Why ID is not mechanistic’ or some other such subject (Edward Feser might have a better topic to suggest) relevant to this ‘debate’? Can he then submit it for some kind of public critique (outside ID echo chambers on the internet or Ed’s blog) or ideally credible peer review?

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  2. KN

    This is a little more explicit.

    “(He [Heisenberg] thus ministered to a curiously ambivalent obsession of our post-rationalist age: it’s preoccupation with killing the Father — that it, Metaphysics — while keeping Him inviolate, in some other form, and beyond all criticism.”KRP *Logic of Scienetific Discovery* page 452

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  3. KN

    Just a little more.

    "[...]Thus atomism became testable as soon as it was committed to an estimate of the size of a molecule. This example show that a non-testable theory -- a metaphysical theory -- may be developed and strengthened until it becomes testable. But if this is so, it seems grossly misleading to describe it as meaningless; and very risky to reject it out of hand as did Mach.

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  4. Oops that last was from *Realism and the Aim of Science* page 191

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  5. @dguller:

    "The power to do X remains actualized, irrespective of whether that power is actually used to do X as long as a subject S with the power to do X continues to exist."

    Yes, and I shouldn't have parenthetically identified an active potency with an unexercised power. As you say, the potency (power) is supposed to be just as active/actual whether it's exercised or not. What makes it "active" is that the change it produces is in something other than the agent.

    "However, it seems to me that there is an increase in actuality in S when S actually does X, and that when S does not do X, then doing X is a potency in S."

    Yeah, I know what you mean. (I think you and I had a brief conversation about this a year or two ago.) It does seem, intuitively at least, that if A exercises a power to cause a change in B, some sort of potency is actualized in A, as contrasted with a case in which A isn't exercising that power.

    Now, in created things that may well be true. The passive potency of a piece of dry wood to burn may be actualized by the active potency of a spark to cause ignition, but it also seems that some sort of potency in the spark must be actualized in order for it to be exercising that power.

    But I'm not persuaded that that's true of "God-level" active potencies. Indeed, it must not be true if God both (a) is simple and/or immutable and (b) has causal powers. So at this point it's just a question of whether one has confidence in the arguments for (a) and (b).

    For whatever it's worth, here's how I tend to think of it (rightly or wrongly). God has the active potency/power to create unicorns, but (we suppose) hasn't exercised it (at least in our physical universe).

    But that doesn't mean God's power to create unicorns is an unactualized passive potency. I think the power in question is better characterized as the power to determine whether or not there are unicorns, and that it's exercised just as "actively" in determining that there aren't unicorns as it is in determining that there are.

    For us, that is, the power to create unicorns, if we had it, would be a (secondary) causal power that would be in potency whenever we weren't actively creating unicorns. For God, though, it's a (primary) causal power that is "exercised" just as positively, and as much, in making a world without unicorns as in making a world with unicorns.

    Again, I think something along these lines must be the case if (a) and (b) above are both true. After all, in that case all of God's powers and attributes are really just God Himself, so God's "power to create unicorns" is God. It would seem silly to say that God Himself was an unactualized potency just because He wasn't exercising a "power" that is Himself.

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  6. The Irish Thomist
    Rather than this passionate back and forth if Vincent has an argument can he present it in 1000 words maximum on the topic of ‘Why ID is not mechanistic’ or some other such subject (Edward Feser might have a better topic to suggest) relevant to this ‘debate’?

    Having read up on the dispute, I'd say that the it was definitively over for good at this point http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/05/reply-to-torley-and-cudworth.html insofar as the subject matter and the thrust of arguments is involved. From here on, Torley only kept getting more vicious, acknowledging occasional defeat here and there as a tactical move, just to show next that he had not really conceded anything. He always returns with the same thing packaged a bit differently and thrown with bolder self-confidence.

    If I noticed correctly, Ed said something about having a few books to write, but it appears he cannot stop either. In which case, instead of an essay from Torley (which would predictably add nothing new or interesting to anyone), I recommend calming the mind with this brief and interesting piece of writing over at the UD blog http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/thomas-aquinas-contra-transformism/

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  7. Mr. Green,

    "when DJ alludes to Feser's use of 'conceiving' on p. 105 of TLS or p. 32 of PoM, one who is unfamiliar with the topic and who does not have the books to hand might naturally assume that DJ has the books in front of him and thus at least has the basic definition right. Fortunately, I do have both books handy and can readily confirm that Feser says no such thing."

    Do you suppose I recalled it from memory?

    TLS, p105: "One problem with it [Hume's attack on the principle of causality] is that it assumes quite falsely that to imagine something -- to form a certain mental image -- is the same as to conceive it, in the sense of forming a coherent intellectual idea of it. [snip] You can form no clear mental image of a chiliagon.... Still, your intellect can easily grasp the concept of a chiliagon."

    Compare to PoM, p32-33, when asked to imagine staring into a mirror to find we have no eyeballs, no brain, and no body. We're informed we can certainly conceive of it happening. So I'm wondering what it means to easily grasp intellectually, to form a coherent intellectual idea of such an impossibility? and if the conceiving of act/potentiality, and per se are of similar intellectual rigor?

    Admittedly my reference is obscure, more of an inside joke. Still, I was hoping some bright mind here would get it -- perhaps a lurker or another "troll."


    Scott,

    "As a 'carrier' of that intent (as, say, an attempt to hit a home run, get on base, or whatever), it's per se through and through, and it ceases to be so when the batter ceases to impart instrumentality to it."

    I may have missed it, but nowhere do I see Aquinas or Feser explicitly use intent as a justification or determining factor in per se -- although I do agree that the hand-stick-rock is used to subconsciously link the two. This is why I suggest per se is all in our heads.

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  8. I think Torley showed his hand when he flat out said he'd stop attacking Ed if Ed would stop attacking ID. Keep in mind that at the site Torley is from, for a while Ed was being blasted as some liberal Darwin-loving pseudo-Catholic, almost entirely based on his being critical of ID. This, despite Ed's criticisms of ID being a lot more even-handed than the usual critics.

    Where Torley's concerned, the motivation is pretty obvious: Torley doesn't like the idea of there being a prominent Catholic thinker who isn't onboard with ID. So either he gets them onboard with ID, or he tries to torpedo them as a thinker. He can't do much, but he's trying.

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  9. @Scott:

    But that doesn't mean God's power to create unicorns is an unactualized passive potency. I think the power in question is better characterized as the power to determine whether or not there are unicorns, and that it's exercised just as "actively" in determining that there aren't unicorns as it is in determining that there are.

    But the relevant distinction is between the power to do X and actually doing X. There is a distinction between God’s power to create the universe and God’s actually creating the universe. The former is necessarily coextensive with the divine essence, and remains fully and necessarily active from eternity, irrespective of whether God actually creates the universe or not. However, the latter might not have happened, and thus cannot be coextensive with the divine essence, because otherwise, it would not be possible for God not to create the universe. Therefore, God’s act of creation must be distinct from the divine essence. And the problem with this is that Aquinas has argued that God’s activities are identical to the divine essence – “God's action is not distinct from His power, for both are His divine essence” (ST 1.25.1) – which leads to a contradiction, i.e. God’s activities cannot be identical to the divine essence (because they would all be necessary) versus God’s activities must be identical to the divine essence (because that preserves divine simplicity).

    And furthermore, I still see a problem with there being a potency of any kind in God, whether active or passive. Certainly, a passive potency is to be ruled out on the basis of pure act, but why not also rule out an active potency? Any kind of potency intrinsically involves something that may or may not happen, whether that “something” is solely derived from the agent itself or is done to the agent from something else. If that “something” happens, then there is a greater degree of actuality in the agent than if that “something” did not happen. So, if God has an active potency that lacks a second actuality, then God cannot be pure act, because that God has less actual being than a God that has a second actuality.

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  10. @Scott:

    Incidentally, that is one reason why the Eastern solution in which there is a real distinction between the divine essence (ousia) and the divine operations (energeia) is one that has some appeal to me, but it means that divine simplicity does not apply to divine activities.

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  11. One of my favorite posters on Catholic Answers forum named "Ghosty" writes about the way essence is used in various traditions this way:

    "I haven't done an exhaustive, academic study of this issue, but it is something I've focused on in my readings. It definitely seems to me that the two traditions use the term differently, at least when it comes to Thomism versus Palamism.

    In Thomism, for example, the term "essence" seems to mean nothing less than "whole definition of the thing". So St. Thomas can say without any contradiction that God "acts by His Essence", because God is active by definition (every creature, in contrast, does not act by its essence). Since God shares His Divinity with us, we "share in the Divine Essence by participation". In this, of course, I'm only referring to the way God is spoken of, since created things and God are spoken of quite differently in Thomistic theology, such as how St. Thomas would say that heat is an "essential accident" of fire, but that fire doesn't heat things by its essence since the fire is not essentially in act.

    In the Palamite tradition, however, it seems that Essence refers more often to the inner wholeness and foundation of being. In this manner we can distinguish between the Essence, which is the core of the being in question, and the Energy, which is the power and activity of that being. Since God is One and Infinite, His Energy is Divine and not something apart from Him, but it is distinct from His Essence because it is "expressed" rather than being at the core of being. God's Energy follows upon His Essence, but they are distinguished as the heat is distinguished from fire.

    In the Thomistic tradition, since Essence doesn't necessarily imply a purely inward core, but encompasses everything that is "Divine", it can be said both that God acts by His Essence, and that we participate in the Divine Essence. This couldn't be said in the Palamite context, however, because this would imply that the Divine Essence, the very inner being of God, could enter into the composition of created things, as heat passes from fire to metal. Thomism preserves this gap between creature and Deity by highlighting the difference between the essence of created things and the Divine Essence, and also highlighting the various manners in which the Divine Essence is shared with creatures, Grace being the very highest manner of participation.

    Again, this is just my layman's interpretation, and I don't claim any special insight beyond what some great Dominican instructors shared with me. What are your thoughts on the matter?"

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  12. Scott,

    I'm still interested in responding to Don Jindra's latest objection, because I think discussions of per se and per accidens are never clear enough here. Your response confuses me, though:

    What's not true is that it's a per accidens causal series as an "instrument" of the batter's intent. As a "carrier" of that intent (as, say, an attempt to hit a home run, get on base, or whatever), it's per se through and through, and it ceases to be so when the batter ceases to impart instrumentality to it.

    Are you saying that the baseball's motion after leaving the bat is both per se and per accidens? I don't understand how that can be. It seems clear that the bat is being used instrumentally by the hand to hit the ball, but that the motion following that is not part of any per se series. Of course it can be part of a per accidens series after this, but then the movement of the ball is afterward explained entirely by the causal power of the ball, and therefore not the person or bat, isn't it? Or am I misunderstanding?

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  13. @Gary Black:

    Good points.

    The other wrinkle is that although the divine essence is incomprehensible and fundamentally unknowable, the divine operations are comprehensible and knowable, and it is precisely by virtue of the divine operations that we come to know God at all, even though we know absolutely nothing about the divine essence, other than that it is the hidden source or origin of the divine operations. In other words, there is a real distinction in God between the unknown and hidden divine essence and the known and manifest divine operations.

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  14. Paul Amrhein, thank you for all those rich and suggestive quotes from Popper!

    Though I do confess a strong and growing interest in the "neo-positivist metaphysics" of James Ladyman and others (and yes, the irony in the phrase is intentional), it's pretty clear to me that neo-positivist metaphysics is not all that metaphysics should be.

    There's got to be room for metaphysical speculation as a nursery or breeding-ground for future scientific hypotheses before they are able to manage on their own. (The history of science itself suggests all sorts of ways in which this has happened -- for example, atomism was a fecund metaphysical doctrine for centuries before it became a well-confirmed empirical theory.)

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  15. @Nick Corrado:

    "Are you saying that the baseball's motion after leaving the bat is both per se and per accidens?"

    No, I'm saying that when we refer to the striking of the ball by the bat, we may be referring to either of two events, one purely physical, one not.

    The purely physical event is just the impact of the bat against the ball. In and of itself, this event doesn't "care" how that striking came about, and I don't offhand see any reason to deny that the event involves per accidens causation. As far as I can see, this physical event would be the same no matter how the bat "got there," whether by having been swung deliberately by a batter or by having been hurled there by a natural gas explosion, or what have you.

    The other is as an event within a game of baseball, much as the playing of the flute is an event in the performance of a piece of music. This event stops when the batter stops deliberately swinging the bat*, and it involves per se causation. There's a sense in which the physical impact of the bat against the ball is a part of this event, but the two events are not simply identical and there's no reason (that I can see, anyway) that they must involve the same type of causation.

    That's what I mean, anyway; I may of course be wrong on any point or all points.

    ----

    * If, for example, the batter passes out during his/her swing but the physical action of the swing is completed by sheer inertia, I'd describe that as a different event in the relevant sense. Likewise, I think I'd say that if the flute continues, for a brief time, to emit a vibration after the player stops playing, that's a different event even if the vibrations are physically the same ones that the player would have played had s/he continued.

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  16. dguller,

    it means that divine simplicity does not apply to divine activities.

    I think this is a fairly common way of looking at Palamism, but I don't think it is actually true. Palamas is surely right here:

    But how does the energy observed in God avoid composition? Because he alone possesses an energy completely void of passion, for by it he is active only but is not also acted upon, neither coming into being nor changing....Just as the substance of God is absolutely unnameable since it is beyond names according to the theologians, so also is it imparticipable since it is beyond participation according to them. Therefore, those who now disobey the teaching of the Spirit through our holy Fathers and revile us who agree with them, say that either there are many gods or the one God is composite, if the divine energy is distinct from the divine substance even if it be observed entirely within the substance of God. They are unaware that it is not acting and energy but being acted upon and the passivity which constitute composition. But God acts without being acted upon and without undergoing change.

    [Gregory Palamas, The One Hundred and Fifty Chapters, Robert E. Sinewicz, tr. PIMS (Toronto: 1988) ch. 128 (p. 233), ch. 145 (p. 251).]

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  17. @ Nick, Scott, Don

    Per Se versus Per Accidens

    Why shouldn’t finality be involved? That is, from an AT point of view, it is already involved even at the physical level. Intent, in the usual sense, is a form of finality. The stick and the rock, or the bat and the ball, despite having final causes of their own, can have no such “intent” - the hand can. That, I think, is the idea of instrumentality. That is, it is based on the distinction between things that can “intend” in the usual sense, and things that cannot.

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  18. @Nick Corrado:
    Try to ignore DJas he is deliberately obfuscating his position by changing the meaning of his words in mid argument.

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  19. Hi Ed,

    You've repeatedly chastised me for not responding to your article, "Existential Inertia and the Five Ways," so I shall now proceed to do just that. My article on Uncommon Descent will be titled, "On not putting all your theological eggs into one basket." It will be critical but non-polemical. I won't be making any scientific criticisms, and I certainly won't be making any comments that could be construed as personal. Whether you choose to reply to it or not is entirely up to you.

    I note your comment above that you do not think one needs to argue for the essence/existence distinction in order to show that things require a sustaining cause. I'll hold you to that.

    I'm afraid I can't afford to buy your Scholastic Metaphysics, as (like you) I have a family of my own to feed, and I've bought two of your books already. But as you remarked in a recent post that you don't say much about natural theology in your latest book, I think I'll be happy to rely on your article, "Existential Inertia and the Five Ways," as the best exposition of your Thomistic arguments for God's existence and attributes.

    Finally, for the benefit of readers, I really don't mind if certain people (Ed included), aren't keen on Intelligent Design arguments. That's OK. What I do mind is people arguing that they lead us to a false God. That's profoundly offensive to the faith of millions of people who have come to believe in God as a result of "design" arguments, which are (on a head-count basis) probably the most persuasive arguments for the existence of God, whether you personally like them or not.

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  20. ‘…What I do mind is people arguing that they lead us to a false God.’

    One might in the interests of fairness say that they alone would lead us to a false God. Anyway it is your duty to explain how they not do this rather than appealing to goodwill on our part (this sounds harsh but is true – for all my dislike of ID I sympathise with your position as I have a similar issues with some Thomists and the Ontological Argument).

    ‘ I'll be happy to rely on your article, Existential Inertia and the Five Ways," as the best exposition of your Thomistic arguments for God's existence and attributes.’

    That article is mainly about Divine Conservation. If you want to really graspable with the issues involved it will probably take a good few books on the subject especially if one brings it modern concerns about causality and the nature of time.

    Surely the time spent critiquing Ed would be more profitably spent defending ID (and presumably the intellectual comfort of all those individuals whose faith were at least partly based upon it) from the aforementioned theological accusations raised against it. These arguments are not Ed’s so basing your analysis solely on fragments of this work will benefit no-one, save perhaps those who want to see one side ‘humiliated.

    ‘That's profoundly offensive to the faith of millions of people who have come to believe in God as a result of "design" arguments, which are (on a head-count basis) probably the most persuasive arguments for the existence of God, whether you personally like them or not.’

    It was also the argument Kant and even (albeit reluctantly) Hume found convincing. We won’t hold that against you however.

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  21. @Brandon:

    Thanks for the quote.

    Say that there are two Gods, G1 and G2, such that each is a being of infinite perfection (given that each is a God), and each of which has the same active potency (or power) to do a divine operation P. Next, say that G1 actually does P and G2 does not actually do P.

    First, G1 is distinguished from G2 on the basis of G1’s doing P and G2’s not doing P. With regards to G2, G2 could possibly do P, even though G2 is not actually doing P. To me, this “could possibly” implies a potentiality in G2 to do P, even if that potentiality is active and not passive, which means that there is a potentiality in G2 to do P. The presence of a potentiality in G2 means that G2 cannot be pure act, and since only a being that is pure act is simple, it follows that G2 cannot be simple. Hence, any G with the power to do P, but not actually doing P, could not be simple, irrespective of whether the potency in question is active or passive. And therefore, it seems that if there is a distinction between the divine power, which is the divine essence, and the divine operations, then divine simplicity is compromised.

    Second, when a G does P, P is a knowable manifestation of the divine essence of G that is not really distinct from G itself. It would seem to follow that G1 has more actual being than G2 by virtue of the fact that G1 is actually doing P, whereas G2 is not actually doing P. And since actuality is coextensive with perfection, it would follow that G1 is more perfect than G2, which means that G2 cannot possibly be God, because God is necessarily the most perfect. And since God is pure act and simple, it follows that G2 cannot be pure act or simple. Therefore, any G that does not use its power to P to actually do P cannot be the most perfect, and thus cannot be pure act or simple, because it is always conceivable that a more perfect G is possible, i.e. a G that actually does P.

    Thus, it seems to me that there is a necessary connection between a power do P that is not used to do P and a potency that negates the possibility of infinite perfection/pure act/simplicity. And this seems to hold, irrespective of whether the potency in question is active or passive, which means that Palamas’ (and Aquinas’) distinction between the two kinds of potency does not actually same divine simplicity.

    Any thoughts? (And be gentle!)

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  22. dguller,

    I think this is the point where disagreement would arise:

    To me, this “could possibly” implies a potentiality in G2 to do P, even if that potentiality is active and not passive, which means that there is a potentiality in G2 to do P. The presence of a potentiality in G2 means that G2 cannot be pure act, and since only a being that is pure act is simple, it follows that G2 cannot be simple.

    This argument sounds like you are identifying a genus, potentiality, and two subspecies, active and passive, so that they are different variations on one kind of thing; but I think in general people don't mean this when using the distinction in this context. Active potentiality or power just is an act that can be described in terms like 'ability', 'capability', and so forth; i.e., it's a principle of something else's being possible. It's not potentiality in the strict sense, which precisely involves not being an act. (We use the same words because most of the things we know in everyday life pair off active and passive potential; e.g., 'understanding' can mean the active potential, or the passive potential, or the two together making up the action of understanding.) To be composite or non-simple (according to both St. Gregory and St. Thomas) one requires a union of potential in the strict sense with something actual -- it's the contrariety between the potential and the act that makes composition. But active potentiality or power by definition (for both St. Gregory and St. Thomas) just is an act, understood a certain way (namely, as being that on which something else's possibility follows). Thus from both a Palamist and a Thomistic position, your arguments equivocate. Or, in other words, what seems to be the real point of difference is what we can possibly mean when talking about something's power/potentiality.

    I take it that you would regard Spinoza's argument at the end of Part of the Ethics (Propositions XXXIII-XXXV) as an at least more-or-less correct deduction from the claim that power can be attributed to God? It seems like your arguments might at least be cousins to Spinoza's.

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  23. Scott,

    If I understand you right, you're making the per se causation in the bat and ball example dependent on there being an agent. It's fine that agents can do that, but aren't there any per se series where the principal cause is not an agent? Aquinas's proof should still work even if a plague or asteroid kills us all tomorrow.

    I've been thinking on and off about this all day, and I've only hit on one obvious example: something happens and there's a rockslide (not landslide or avalanche; we want objects that are definitely discrete). Only certain rocks that are dislodged could have caused the rockslide--the others were too settled--and once they get going they push the rest down the mountain.

    It seems to me that the rocks that were sufficiently dislodged were the only ones with the causal power to bring the rockslide about (enough weight, the right position, etc.), and the rest of the rocks caught up in it were instrumental causes insofar as they pushed still other rocks. And the whole thing is happening simultaneously, of course. Does this sound right?

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  24. Paul,

    My response to Scott applies. I think our examples of per se causation with agents intending to use something as an instrument definitely qualify as per se, but it seems to me that that's not all that should qualify.

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  25. @ dguller
    Consider an alternative option: God holds all things in existence within this universe. This includes Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen. Some of these molecules are formed into horses and goats. That He is holding none as Unicorns is not that any molecules are being neglected or that Act is not acting – it is just that this is not including unicorns! If an animal dies, Act does not stop, only the form of the conglomerate of atoms changes. The materiel for making unicorns remains, just not formed into unicorns.

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  26. Vincent,

    Since it seems that you and I are, mercifully, drawing our exchange here in the combox to a close, let me see if I’ve got all this straight. In this exchange, repeated reference has been made to three presentations I’ve given of the Aristotelian-Thomistic argument from motion:

    (1) the informal version in the Vimeo video

    (2) the version I give in my book on Aquinas

    (3) the version I give in my ACPQ article “Existential Inertia and the Five Ways”

    You’ve explicitly said that it is not this style of argument per se that you object to; on the contrary, you say this kind of argument is “deeply insightful.” You’ve also highly praised the version I present in my book on Aquinas, calling my defense of the Five Ways there “matchless.” And yet now you say that you’re going to criticize the version I present in the ACPQ article. Now, why on earth would you want to do that?

    The reason is obvious. You can’t attack A-T arguments from motion per se given that you’ve already called that kind of argument “deeply insightful.” You can’t attack (2) because you’ve already called it “matchless.” You tried to attack (1) but that has backfired on you badly. So, the only thing left for you to attack is (3).

    But again, why attack it at all, since it is just a variation on the A-T argument from motion and of my version in the Aquinas book in particular -- both of which you have, again, praised highly?

    The reason for that, too, is obvious. You have said to me: “I'd be more than happy to stop writing posts in response to yours, if you would stop criticizing ID.” And you’d written long critiques of my defense of the Fifth Way before turning to my version of the First Way, after I made it clear during our last exchange that it was A-T cosmological arguments rather than A-T teleological arguments that I take to be the most important. So, you are obviously very, very keen to attack some argument of mine in retaliation for my criticisms of ID.

    You’re also going to title this forthcoming critique of yours “On not putting all your theological eggs into one basket.” Obviously your aim is to sow in the minds of A-T sympathetic readers enough doubt about A-T arguments that they’ll consider putting an egg or two in the ID basket, just in case. And then there’s this stuff about how offensive it is to ID fans to be told that their position tends to lead to a mistaken conception of God.

    So, at the end of the day, it isn’t any of my versions of the A-T argument from motion (or of the Fifth Way, or whatever) that you really care about. Had I never criticized ID, you wouldn’t be attacking them at all. What you are really all about is promoting ID, settling scores with people who don’t respect ID, demanding respect for people who value ID. If you think you can do that by praising something I’ve written, you’ll praise it; if you think this end would be better served by attacking something I’ve written, you’ll come up with ways to attack it. But the cause of ID is always in the driver’s seat.

    That about cover it? This is, of course, what I and other commenters here in the combox have been accusing you of all along, and you have been piling up more and more evidence for us that the accusation is correct. But a simple and straightforward “Yes, that’s right” from you would save us (and you) a lot of time.

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  27. @Nick

    There’s a kind of tree that uses elephants to spread its seeds around. Could that be an example of a *per se* series? What do you think?

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  28. @Nick Corrado:

    "Aquinas's proof should still work even if a plague or asteroid kills us all tomorrow.…I think our examples of per se causation with agents intending to use something as an instrument definitely qualify as per se, but it seems to me that that's not all that should qualify."

    I agree, and I'll revise my earlier statements to at least the following extent: I'm certainly willing to allow the possibility that some purely physical processes do qualify as per se causal series. (Your rockslide example is a good one, though I wouldn't dare to claim that no one could nitpick it to death.)

    But I don't think it matters one whit to the argument whether they do or not. The physical illustrations are illustrations, and (as I've mentioned somewhere in the last day or two but offhand I don't recall precisely where) the argument goes through just fine if we start with "existence"—at least if we take "existence," as Aquinas did, to be fundamentally a positive act (rather than, say, just a property/accident). And I think that version of the argument satisfies your (well-founded) understanding that the argument should go through even for a universe devoid of conscious intentions.

    One way (though, as Ed has recently had reason to note, not the only way) of making this argument is to make a "real distinction" between essence and existence. But what's really essential to the argument is that something's existing is an act that, in ordinary (that is, non-God) cases, requires actualization by an external agent.

    That claim, if sound, remains sound even if every physical illustration of a per se series turns out on closer inspection not to be per se after all.

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  29. Well, the rocks' downward acceleration is dependent on the gravitational force of the Earth, right? Rocks can't accelerate on their own.

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  30. TLS, p105: "One problem with it [Hume's attack on the principle of causality] is that it assumes quite falsely that to imagine something -- to form a certain mental image -- is the same as to conceive it, in the sense of forming a coherent intellectual idea of it. [snip] You can form no clear mental image of a chiliagon.... Still, your intellect can easily grasp the concept of a chiliagon."

    I find this quite interesting. I know the chilagon example from Descartes -- is it of Scholastic origin?

    I think that one can preserve the general line of attack on Hume without calling his underlying commitment an "assumption". He does have an argument for it, after all.

    Hume denies that there's a distinction between intellect and imagination, because of his underlying commitment to concept-formation -- that there's no "material" available for cognitive awareness that's not present in sense-experience.

    Of course, one might immediately point out that the Scholastics had a version of this view as well. What Hume adds to it is a rejection of abstraction -- for example, he denies that we can form the general idea of "triangle" ("triangularity", if you wish) by abstracting from different particular triangles.

    This view is motivated in different ways, but chiefly by his commitment to verificationism: that we don't really know what we're talking about unless there is some specific, identifiable sense-experience (whether in 'outer sense' or 'inner sense') that we are referring to. It's a theory of meaning that's doing the heavy lifting for all the rest of his account.

    There are, generally speaking, two ways of responding to Hume's denial of the principle of causality. One, of course, is Aristotelian, and that has its virtues. The other is Kant's argument that the principle of causality is a category by virtue of being intrinsic to the structure that the mind brings to bear on sensations.

    Both Aristotle and Kant have their drawbacks. The obvious drawback to Kant is that he's so concerned with the mind's role in constructing unified experience out of disparate sense-impressions that he closes the door to realism. (Though it's been argued that Kant presupposes more realism than he's officially entitled to, and I think that's correct.) The drawback to Aristotle, as I see it, is that his commitment to realism leads him to neglect the constructivist side of things -- the categories of reality just are the categories of thinking about the reality. It's as if the world impresses itself on the mind as a seal on melted wax.

    The correct view, I think, would take up Aristotle's emphasis on realism and Kant's emphasis on constructivism. That might be Hegel -- or, as I think, John Dewey.

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  31. A bit on per accidens:

    "To use Aquinas’s example, a father possesses the power to generate sons independently of the activity of his own father, so that a series of fathers and sons is in that sense ordered per accidens rather than per se (though each member of such a series is also dependent in various other respects on causal series ordered per se)."

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/08/edwards-on-infinite-causal-series.html

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  32. Paul,

    If the seeds don't have the power to "plant themselves" (or whatever function the elephant is doing here) then the elephant is, I suppose, instrumental to the plant's reproduction, but I'm not sure that these things are happening simultaneously. Now that you mention it, though, I bet there's a lot of biological examples we're missing here. Could the reproductive cycle of parasites qualify? ("It takes a host body to bear and nourish the egg, and however many stomachs one posits the egg is inherited from, it still requires a mother to have come into existence" or something to that effect? Again, I'm not sure how we should character this such that all that is happening is simultaneous. But it sounds interesting to look into.)

    Scott,

    Thank you; your point about existence is exactly right, and it's something I've been forgetting this whole time!

    Anon@4:42,

    Sure, but the rocks are only accelerated insofar as they possess mass, and so it is their mass that disposes them to the gravitational force of the Earth.

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  33. Nick, Feser already mentioned that simultaneity isn't important. Instrumentality is:

    "It is worth emphasizing that it is precisely this instrumental nature of second causes, the dependence of whatever causal power they have on the causal activity of the first cause, that is the key to the notion of a causal series per se. That the members of such a series exist simultaneously, and that the series does not regress to infinity, are of secondary importance."

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-incompetent-hack.html

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  34. Daniel,

    Well, in Platonism, some spiritual beings - like angels or Gods - are from realms that are above the subtle, but the subtle is the home of many spiritual or psychic beings. So, the subtle realms are both mathematical and psychic.

    In a sense, our realm, the corporeal realm, is but a determination and limitation of the subtle or psychic realm and they overlap - there is no hard and fast barrier between the corporeal and psychic. Not only are we partly psychic (and intellectual) beings but if we were more alive to it we would see psychic infiltration of our world everywhere - in traditional cultures there has always been great traffic between our world and the psychic realm.

    What is interesting is that, from the Platonic (and other traditional) viewpoint, the corporeal realm is vanishingly small. This means that, in terms of the so called problem of evil, the realm in which privation can become actual suffering is miniscule in the cosmic scheme of things.

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  35. @Nick

    You might like Max Jammer's *Concepts of Simultaneity* - great science writer, zero scientism.

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  36. Paul,

    Thanks for the recommendation! I took a look at the Amazon page and saw your review. Looks like Jammer's work covers some great topics. Outside my price range for the foreseeable future, but I'll see if I can get it via interlibrary loan.

    (Thank God for university libraries.)

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  37. Vincent Torley: What I do mind is people arguing that they lead us to a false God. That's profoundly offensive to the faith of millions of people who have come to believe in God as a result of "design” arguments

    You are making it seem as though getting to heaven requires passing a theology exam, with Ed “offending” against people’s faith by claiming that 99.9% isn’t good enough to pass. This has nothing to do with the sincerity of someone’s faith; it has to do with the arguments, which are either sound or not. As Ed has pointed out so many times, ID doesn’t get you that far without outside arguments (in which case, what do we need the ID for?), and beyond that, given the mechanistic assumptions it makes, it can ever get only to a false God. That some people may succeed in being pious with an incorrect conception of God, or that they may stumble into a correct idea of God despite it all is not the point. It’s wrong to give someone a bad argument for God just because it might lead to a good result; all the moreso when a good argument is readily available.

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  38. Edward Feser: So, you are obviously very, very keen to attack some argument of mine in retaliation for my criticisms of ID.

    To be fair, I don’t think it’s a matter of retaliation per se, as in “You attacked my argument for God, so I’ll attack your argument for…say, Pythagoras’s Theorem!” I think Vincent is taking the criticisms of ID as complaining that it is missing some steps (or something), and that anyone who’s not keen on the cosmological argument will consider it to be missing some steps as well, so it’s unfair to pick on one and not the other. (How he managed to conclude that the criticisms amount to a few missing steps that need to be filled in here or there is another matter…. Nor does that negate any of the other problems.)

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  39. Don Jindra: Do you suppose I recalled it from memory?

    The only thing I suppose is that you got it wrong; as you just demonstrated yourself. I’m not going to break my own rule and discuss the philosophy, but perhaps you can satisfy my curiosity in a psychological vein and explain just how you got from what Feser actually said, “your intellect can easily grasp the concept of a chiliagon” (as quoted by you) to what you claimed in the previous post, namely, "I use ‘conceive' in the manner of Feser as something 'your intellect can easily grasp' (TLC p105)”? Quite clearly those two statement are completely different: one is saying that the concept of a chiliagon happens to be something that is easy to grasp, while the other says that “conceiving” is defined as “something your intellect can easily grasp”. But of course the original statement does not even say that all concepts are easy to graps, let alone define concepts that way. Can you explain to us the thought-process by which you got from Feser’s words to your claim in the post I originally replied to? I would really like to see the reasoning by which you came to your conclusion.

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  40. The whole business of per se vs. per accidens causality seems to be much harder than it should be. Basically, something causes an effect per se if it causes it by itself, i.e. just because of its very nature. Hence it’s also called an essential cause because it is able to produce the effect by its own essence. This is opposed to an instrumental cause, which can produce the effect only accidentally, i.e. only when something else transmits the cause “through” it (like an instrument), by giving it some accidental state.

    For instance, a stick does not have the power to move by its own essence — if it did, every stick would be moving all the time; the only way to stop a stick from moving would be to destroy it, because if the motion follows from the stick’s own essence, then the only way not to have that effect is by not having the essence of the stick. Now perhaps sticks have some sort of internal motion (atoms buzzing about) that can indeed not be stopped; but the kind of motion we’re considering here — pushing a stone about — is clearly not part of the nature of a stick. It’s an accident — the stick can either possess that accidental property or not; if the stick is being pushed (say, by a hand — or being pulled, say, by gravity, etc.), then it will be able to push a rock; if it isn’t, then it won’t. The whole point is that accidents have to come from somewhere — they cannot come from the essence of the thing having the accidents, because then they wouldn’t be accidental (they’d be substantial, or essential). So they have to come from something else.

    Perhaps some of the confusion lies in sloppy usage: we tend to slip between talking about a cause and a series of causes… but note carefully that a per se series is made up of accidental causes, while a per accidens series consists of per se causes. A “per se series” is not short for “a series of per se causes” because if the causes are per se — that is, they cause their effects by virtue of their own natures — then they don’t need to get anything from another element in the series, and thus the connections between the links in the chain must be merely accidental. Conversely, if a series consists of a bunch of accidentally-ordered causes, then they are all merely instruments of some per se cause that kicks off the whole chain, and thus the chain is a per se series, because as a whole it is an extended per se cause.

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  41. The drawback to Aristotle, as I see it, is that his commitment to realism leads him to neglect the constructivist side of things -- the categories of reality just are the categories of thinking about the reality. It's as if the world impresses itself on the mind as a seal on melted wax.

    Kantian, this already begs the question against Aristotle, and it seems to misunderstand what Aristotelian/Thomistic abstraction is all about. When I know an oak tree (for example), I'm not merely "thinking about" an oak tree; instead, the formal aspect of the oak tree literally becomes the formal aspect of my mind. In a very real sense, my mind becomes an oak tree.
    That's what "abstraction" is for the A-T philosopher: The conformity of the mind with the formal aspect of that which is known.

    Thus there is no gap between subject and object, Kantian or otherwise, that must be bridged through thinking up ideas or constructing categories. As soon as you assume that gap, you've given up on Aristotle and sided with Kant.

    Your example of the melted wax is not far from the mark, but you seem to think it is self-evidently absurd. I'm not sure why.

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  42. @Vincent Torley

    "I'm afraid I can't afford to buy your Scholastic Metaphysics, as (like you) I have a family of my own to feed, and I've bought two of your books already."

    Maybe someone here can buy you one then? Vincent can I suggest a break from your current level of online interaction to consider whether in fact Ed actually has a good point? I mean when we are always defending our position we might not be in a place to consider the other side of the argument and evaluate where we might be wrong.

    A Google of your name shows that Edward Feser isn't the only person you have crossed horns with like this - and the same thing happens.

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  43. I was thinking along similar lines the other night. With that in mind it seems I ought to volunteer:

    @Vincent Torley, if, for whatever reason. it is financially inconvenient for you to buy a copy of Scholastic Metaphysics I am willing to purchase one for you. Just give a delivery address or PO box and I will see to it. It is worth having even though it might be more profitable for all concerned if you engage with the criticisms of ID therein rather than base your whole understanding of Thomistic natural theology upon.

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  44. @Brandon:

    Active potentiality or power just is an act that can be described in terms like 'ability', 'capability', and so forth; i.e., it's a principle of something else's being possible. It's not potentiality in the strict sense, which precisely involves not being an act.

    I agree. The power as first actuality is always in act as long as the subject S that possesses the power remains in existence. However, the power is a power to do X, and doing X can be potential or actual. When doing X is potential, then doing X cannot be in act, and it is precisely this potentially doing X that I consider to be a kind of potentiality within S. So, the question is what the status is of this potentially doing X with respect to S, and furthermore, the issue is whether S-actually-doing-X has more actual being than S-potentially-doing-X, and whether both S-actually-doing-X and S-potentially-doing-X can both be pure act.

    However, if the kind of potency that is impossible in pure act is only a passive potency, then this will not be a problem. And I suppose that makes sense, because the argument that leads to pure act is based upon premises involving potencies that are actualized by something else in act, whereas active potencies are not “actualized” by anything other than the subject that has the active potency itself. Therefore, the kind of being that is pure act can have active potencies, which are irrelevant to the cosmological argument that concludes with a being that is pure act, but not passive potencies.

    And yet, even having said all of that, I still have a nagging suspicion that if it is true that, in God, the power to do X is identical to actually doing X, then it is impossible for God to have a power to do X and still not do X. In other words, saying that the power to do X is identical to actually doing X is equivalent to saying that God has the power to do X iff God actually does X, which is absurd. Furthermore, if actuality is coextensive with perfection, then God-actually-doing-X will be more actual than God-potentially-doing-X, and thus the latter cannot be considered to be the “most perfect”, given that it is conceivable that something else exists that has more actuality than it. Therefore, only God-actually-doing-X can be God, which means that (a) it is impossible for God to have a power to do X and not actually do X, and (b) it is necessary that God created the universe, if he has the power to do so.

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  45. @dguller:

    "[T]he kind of being that is pure act can have active potencies, which are irrelevant to the cosmological argument that concludes with a being that is pure act, but not passive potencies."

    Exactly.

    "[I]f actuality is coextensive with perfection, then God-actually-doing-X will be more actual than God-potentially-doing-X[.]"

    But it seems to me that God is always actively exercising His power to determine whether there are unicorns, whether or not there are ever any unicorns. I don't see that the existence of unicorns represents any further actualization of that power.

    Again, nagging suspicions to the contrary notwithstanding, the point is that even if my own way of looking at it isn't the best way, still something along these general lines must be the case if a simple and immutable God has causal powers at all. So it still comes down to whether one regards the arguments for such a God as sound.

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  46. @Mr. Green:

    "To be fair, I don’t think it’s a matter of retaliation per se, as in 'You attacked my argument for God, so I’ll attack your argument for…say, Pythagoras’s Theorem!' I think Vincent is taking the criticisms of ID as complaining that it is missing some steps (or something), and that anyone who’s not keen on the cosmological argument will consider it to be missing some steps as well, so it’s unfair to pick on one and not the other."

    More precisely, Vincent takes one of Ed's criticisms of ID to be that it doesn't offer an ironclad argument for the existence of the God of classical theism (or, for that matter, any other god), whereas Thomism does and Ed has it. Vincent is responding by trying to show that Ed's argument isn't ironclad and Ed should therefore "eat his words," which will in some way vindicate ID.

    And yes, thank you for your marvelously clear post on causal series.

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  47. @Daniel T.

    Kantian, this already begs the question against Aristotle, and it seems to misunderstand what Aristotelian/Thomistic abstraction is all about. When I know an oak tree (for example), I'm not merely "thinking about" an oak tree; instead, the formal aspect of the oak tree literally becomes the formal aspect of my mind. In a very real sense, my mind becomes an oak tree.
    That's what "abstraction" is for the A-T philosopher: The conformity of the mind with the formal aspect of that which is known.


    That much I understand of Aristotle! One thing about Aristotle that I deeply admire is his work in what I was calling "the epistemology of metaphysics": giving an account of our cognitive access to the structure of reality that is consistent with the account of the structure of reality. In this case, the hylomorphic account of what is for something to be the kind of being that it is also explains how we, as the kind of being that we are, can know what beings are.

    By contrast, in analytic philosophy, epistemology and metaphysics are by and large cordoned off from each other -- metaphysicians don't ground their metaphysics epistemologically, and epistemologists don't ground their theories of knowledge in metaphysics.

    Though I can see why Feser and other 'new scholastics' are keen to show how Scholastic metaphysics deserves to be taken seriously amongst analytic metaphysicians, I think that in this crucial respect Scholastic philosophy is vastly superior to analytic metaphysics, both "naturalistic" and "non-naturalistic".

    Thus there is no gap between subject and object, Kantian or otherwise, that must be bridged through thinking up ideas or constructing categories. As soon as you assume that gap, you've given up on Aristotle and sided with Kant.

    Well, there are gaps, and then there are gaps.

    I think that Kant was wrong in saying that there's an unbridgeable gap between the products of cognitive activity and how things are in themselves. Despite my moniker, I'm not defending transcendental idealism! In fact, I agree with some contemporary pragmatists (Kenneth Westphal and Sami Pihlstrom in particular) that transcendental arguments can be used to establish realism.

    However, from the fact that some kind of realism is true -- that our cognitive capacities are not screened off from how things really are -- and from the fact that our cognitive capacities are categorically structured, it does not follow that reality itself is categorically structured, or that it is categorically structured in the same way that our cognitive capacities are.

    In other words, there's a bit of a slip from "realism is epistemologically and metaphysically to idealism" to "Scholastic realism is epistemologically and metaphysically superior to other forms of realism".

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  48. Your example of the melted wax is not far from the mark, but you seem to think it is self-evidently absurd. I'm not sure why.

    I wouldn't say "absurd," and certainly not "self-evidently absurd". But it is deeply problematic, because it leaves us with an unexplained explainer -- a bit of the Myth of the Given, as Wilfrid Sellars would say.

    That is, we want to understand how it came about mind and world have the same categorical structure. A theist has a ready reply -- that both categorical structures have a common source. With regard to that response, C. I. Lewis (not to be confused with C. S. Lewis) once remarked that such a view "substitutes adoration of a mystery for explanation of a fact".

    In effect, Scholastic philosophy is being presented here as arguing that

    (1) either idealism or realism;
    (2) but idealism is absurd*;
    (3) realism can be either naturalistic or theistic;
    (4) but naturalism is absurd**;
    (5) therefore theism is the only correct view.

    This strategy overlooks the possibility of non-scientistic and non-theistic metaphysical realism -- as for example in American pragmatism (esp. Dewey and Sellars) and recent Continental philosophy (esp. Merleau-Ponty and Deleuze).

    * because if experience is wholly constituted by the cognitive capacities of the agent, there is nothing intelligible coming from the world that constrains the actualization of those capacities, and so no way of grounding the distinction between discovery and creation;

    ** because naturalism, as 'scientism' or as 'reductive materialism', cannot account for agency, normativity, and rationality.

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  49. @Scott:

    But it seems to me that God is always actively exercising His power to determine whether there are unicorns, whether or not there are ever any unicorns. I don't see that the existence of unicorns represents any further actualization of that power.

    And that is the heart of my concerns of an underlying incoherence here.

    God remains the same, irrespective of whether he actually does X or not. It literally makes no difference to God, either way, which is part of his immutability and impassibility. And your account makes perfect sense on that level, i.e. his power to do X is identical to his essence, and since his essence remains the same in eternity, his power to do X also remains the same in eternity.

    However, in addition to the power to do X, there is doing X. Where does God doing X or not come into the equation? Is God’s doing X in God, or in creation? Aquinas seems to imply that God’s doing X is in God, because he says that God’s act and God’s power to act are one and the same (see SCG 2.9), and thus should be coextensive with the divine essence itself. But in that case, it makes all the difference to God whether he actually does X or not, because that would result in different essences, which is impossible.

    And that means that doing X is not in God at all, but rather in creation. But that means that God’s power cannot be one and the same as God’s activities, contra Aquinas. To his credit, I think he recognizes this as a problem, and tries a solution at SCG 2.10.

    He writes that “power is in truth attributed to God in relation to things made, not in relation to action, except according to our way of understanding, namely, so far as our intellect considers both God’s power and His action through diverse conceptions” (SCG 2.10.1). In other words, there is a distinction between (a) necessary and intrinsic divine action (e.g. intellect and will), and (b) contingent and extrinsic divine action (e.g. “things made” in creation). Since a power necessarily points beyond itself to something else, and may not be exercised in an operation, he says that power cannot, strictly speaking, be predicated of God, other than in relation to creation. Or, as he puts it: “Properly speaking, therefore, God’s power does not regard such actions, but only effects. Consequently, intellect and will are in God, not as powers, but only as actions” (SCG 2.10.1).

    Thus, Aquinas seems to endorse the conclusion that the divine activities that are associated with divine powers are necessarily extrinsic to God himself and actually in creation.

    But, he immediately writes that “the multifarious actions attributed to God, as understanding, willing, producing things, and the like are not diverse realities, since each of these actions in God is His very being, which is one and the same” (SCG 2.10.2), which completely contradicts what he had argued at SCG 2.10.1. So, he equivocates between (a) the divine activities being in God as his very being, and (b) the divine activities being outside of God as created effects. If (a), then whether God acts or not in a certain way makes a huge difference to the divine essence, and thus (a) is impossible. If (b), then it is impossible that the divine power is identical to the divine activities.

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  50. That is, we want to understand how it came about mind and world have the same categorical structure.

    And the Aristotelian answer here has nothing to do with God or theism. It is simply that the intellect becomes the world in the formal sense when it knows.

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  51. Alan (not me) writes:

    God holds all things in existence within this universe. This includes Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen. Some of these molecules are formed into horses and goats. That He is holding none as Unicorns is not that any molecules are being neglected or that Act is not acting – it is just that this is not including unicorns! If an animal dies, Act does not stop, only the form of the conglomerate of atoms changes. The materiel for making unicorns remains, just not formed into unicorns.

    Is this parody?

    Carbon, hydrogen and oxygen are generally referred to as elements. Molecule is reserved for a group of more than one atom linked together. Strictly speaking, you'd get away with hydrogen and oxygen as these elements normally exist as dimers in pure gaseous phase. Molecule is much more problematic with regard to carbon as has several allotropes, for example: the amorphous form,graphite and diamond, which can be regarded as a very large molecule.

    The fact that there are no unicorns is an argument in favour of evolution (finding a unicorn would falsify evolutionary theory) though one might intuitively think popping out a narwhal-style horn from the centre of a horses forehead no great feat for an intelligent designer.

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  52. @ Alan Fox

    Is this parody?

    Carbon, hydrogen and oxygen are generally referred to as elements. Molecule is reserved for a group of more than one atom linked together. Strictly speaking, you'd get away with hydrogen and oxygen as these elements normally exist as dimers in pure gaseous phase. Molecule is much more problematic with regard to carbon as has several allotropes, for example: the amorphous form,graphite and diamond, which can be regarded as a very large molecule.


    Uhh... is this parody?

    Does (the other) Alan need to "get away" with slipping "molecule" in rather than "element"? Or did he simply type the wrong word, thereby exciting Alan Fox, who is always looking for a chance to show off his chemistry knowledge, even if he can only doing so by making irrelevant distinctions (as the distinction between elements and molecules surely is, for the point that Alan is making)?

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  53. @ Alan Fox

    Also.

    The fact that there are no unicorns is an argument in favour of evolution (finding a unicorn would falsify evolutionary theory) though one might intuitively think popping out a narwhal-style horn from the centre of a horses forehead no great feat for an intelligent designer.

    Why would finding a unicorn falsify evolutionary theory? Why would it not be treated like any other biological feature for which we have not yet discovered an evolutionary pathway?

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  54. Kantian,

    That is also why your question of the categories of the mind vs the categories of reality doesn't arise for the Aristotelian. The intellect is reality (in the formal sense) when it knows. There aren't two different catalogs of categories (the mind vs reality) the relatiohship of which we must worry about. There is only one catalog, that of reality, in which the mind participates when it knows.

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  55. Mr. Green,

    "perhaps you can satisfy my curiosity in a psychological vein and explain just how you got from what Feser actually said... to what you claimed in the previous post"

    It's dangerous to ask a patient to diagnose himself. But I'll try anyway.

    We can imagine (form a mental image of) a per se chain. But when the intellect starts exploring the issue it finds unresolved problems. In effect, Feser admits this: "The hand ... can be thought of for purposes of illustration as such a cause, though of course ultimately it is not, since its power to move the stick depends on other factors..." Of course this doesn't begin to address other problems I find with per se.

    You imply Feser considers "conceiving" a looser, more inclusive term than "imagining." I don't think he does. But even if he does, I don't think it can be supported in the way he uses the words. Surely we can imagine plenty of things we cannot "intellectually grasp." Nevertheless, I'm still trying to intellectually grasp how one could see without a body or push a stick through a "time gate" today that moves a stone simultaneously 1000 years from now. To be honest, I think Feser claims to grasp intellectually some things that put the status of the intellect in unfortunate circumstances.

    When I say we can imagine per se but not conceive of it, I have this murkiness in mind -- a murkiness that reaches way beyond Feser. We can imagine ourselves using objects instrumentally. I do it every day. But we cannot intellectually grasp (conceive) the pure physics of it.

    If this still seems confused, I don't disagree. I'm of the opinion the distinction between imagining and conceiving is not clear at all. I feel the same about per se and per accidens which is why in my strange mind I put the pair of terms in the same sentence. It's as if there's a parallel there, a two legged metaphysical quirk that looms over me, demonic, infinitely tall and uncaused. It haunts me day and night. That's my psychological diagnosis.

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  56. Greg asks

    Why would finding a unicorn falsify evolutionary theory?

    Definition of unicorn: having the general biology of a domesticated horse, typically with pure white coat, but possessing straight "horn" also having a tapering spiral appearance projecting from the centre of the forehead. We'll assume no magical powers to keep it simple.

    Happy with that?

    Assuming we have our hypothetical animal available for study (not just the "horn" of which the best fake examples have been narwhal teeth). What antecedents do we have that would allow us to put unicorn into the same clade as horses? No fossils to suggest a proto-horned ancestor. No vestigial traces of an atrophied "horn" in modern horses and relatives, though some individuals of the Moyle breed exhibit small cranial bosses. Difficult to propose any evo-devo pathway that could select for these to develop into something more (though breeding might conceivably open a door if the alleles are present and breeders both wanted to develop the trait and had the time and incentive)

    Why would it not be treated like any other biological feature for which we have not yet discovered an evolutionary pathway?

    There is no described biological feature that I am aware of that does not have plausible evolutionary pathways proposed. As I have bought the book, You can return the favour by buying Jerry Coyne's "Why Evolution is True". :)

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  57. @ David T.


    That is also why your question of the categories of the mind vs the categories of reality doesn't arise for the Aristotelian. The intellect is reality (in the formal sense) when it knows. There aren't two different catalogs of categories (the mind vs reality) the relatiohship of which we must worry about. There is only one catalog, that of reality, in which the mind participates when it knows.


    Yes, you're right about that -- that's the right way of putting the Aristotelian view. So my objection above isn't going to work. Will have to think more on this, and contribute to the discussion if I think of something to say.

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  58. @ Alan Fox

    There is no described biological feature that I am aware of that does not have plausible evolutionary pathways proposed.

    There don't have to be, because there are biological features that once did not have plausible evolutionary pathways proposed. (And we didn't throw out evolution then.)

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  59. @dguller:

    "Aquinas seems to endorse the conclusion that the divine activities that are associated with divine powers are necessarily extrinsic to God himself and actually in creation."

    I don't think that's what he means in SCG 2.10.1. As far as I can see, he's simply pointing out that we don't call God's action power when it isn't acting on something other than Himself. He's not locating God's action (or activity) "in creation" rather than "in God."

    Nor is this in any way problematic as far as I can tell. Later in SCG 2 (mainly 22-23) he's going to argue that God's power isn't "determined to some single effect" but is rather a perfect "active power" that extends to everything that isn't a contradiction. In describing God's omnipotence, he seems to me to be saying, in part, that God has (is) a unitary "power" that, not being directed toward any single effect, can do all things.

    Which, again, seems to mean that one and the same active power is exercised no matter what God does or doesn't create. He doesn't, that is, have a "power to do X" and also a "power to do Y," either of which He might exercise or not; He has power, full stop, and it's just as "active" when, according to the determination of His will, He does X, Y, or neither.

    "[I]t makes all the difference to God whether he actually does X or not, because that would result in different essences, which is impossible."

    That doesn't seem right either. It seems to be a simple denial that God has any active power at all, as the very definition of an active power is that the changes it causes lie outside the agent. The whole point of denying specifically passive potencies of God is precisely to make clear that God Himself isn't "changed" by His Own activity.

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  60. By the way, for anyone following along, here's SCG 2.

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  61. Addendum to unicorn as being an untenable evolutionary pathway. The point of fixation of the "horn" to the skull would sit right on top of the nasal cavity and frontal sinuses. This would be a dodgy place to have a horn in horses without beefing up the skull.

    Further reading (PDF)

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  62. Greg claims:

    There don't have to be, because there are biological features that once did not have plausible evolutionary pathways proposed. (And we didn't throw out evolution then.)

    Of course there have to be, for evolution to be true. Whether we know what they are precisely at any moment in time is irrelevant to what must have happened if evolution is true. Evolution is constrained by the tree-like bifurcating pattern of heredity. Imaginary design is not so constrained.

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  63. @ Alan Fox

    Addendum to unicorn as being an untenable evolutionary pathway. The point of fixation of the "horn" to the skull would sit right on top of the nasal cavity and frontal sinuses. This would be a dodgy place to have a horn in horses without beefing up the skull.

    I don't think anyone is claiming that a unicorn is likely to arise from evolution or that a horse would find a horn particularly useful if not positively obtrusive. My understanding, though, was that all truth is provisional--even the proposition "the theory of evolution is inconsistent with the existence of unicorns". But that proposition is false anyway, for unicorns might exist as well as undiscovered fossils of some evolutionary chain leading up to them. It is not clear that you were not claiming that unicorns and evolution are inconsistent, but that they are inconsistent if it is also not the case that there are any evolutionary ancestors of unicorns:

    What antecedents do we have that would allow us to put unicorn into the same clade as horses? No fossils to suggest a proto-horned ancestor. No vestigial traces of an atrophied "horn" in modern horses and relatives, though some individuals of the Moyle breed exhibit small cranial bosses. Difficult to propose any evo-devo pathway that could select for these to develop into something more (though breeding might conceivably open a door if the alleles are present and breeders both wanted to develop the trait and had the time and incentive).

    But since we don't know that there are no evolutionary ancestors of unicorns, the sighting of a unicorn plainly would not be enough for us to give up on evolution.

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  64. @ Alan Fox

    Of course there have to be, for evolution to be true. Whether we know what they are precisely at any moment in time is irrelevant to what must have happened if evolution is true. Evolution is constrained by the tree-like bifurcating pattern of heredity. Imaginary design is not so constrained.

    Oh boy. Back to the confusion of ontology and epistemology.

    A unicorn is sighted. For evolution to be true, there have to be evolutionary pathways leading to the unicorn. There do not have to be "plausible evolutionary pathways proposed." You said the latter was the reason we should regard unicorns and evolution as inconsistent. Now you've changed your cadence to "what must have happened if evolution is true."

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  65. It is not clear that you were not claiming that unicorns and evolution are inconsistent

    Sorry: It is now clear...

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  66. ...the sighting of a unicorn plainly would not be enough for us to give up on evolution.

    Of course not. For unicorns to be biological entities, there'd need to be a breeding population and a habitat. One sighting would most likely be fraud or mistakent identity.

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  67. @Scott:

    I don't think that's what he means in SCG 2.10.1. As far as I can see, he's simply pointing out that we don't call God's action power when it isn't acting on something other than Himself. He's not locating God's action (or activity) "in creation" rather than "in God."

    First, he is distinguishing between God’s power and God’s action in saying that God’s extrinsic actions are attributable to God’s power, because power is always directed to something other than the power, and that God’s intrinsic actions are not attributable to God’s power, because they are not directed at anything other than the power itself, i.e. at the divine essence itself. The former are in God, and the latter are in creation. That is precisely how he solves the issue of how we can attribute power to God at all.

    Second, if God’s action is in God, then God’s action is identical to God’s essence, which means that a God that created the universe would have a different essence from a God that did not create the universe.

    Later in SCG 2 (mainly 22-23) he's going to argue that God's power isn't "determined to some single effect" but is rather a perfect "active power" that extends to everything that isn't a contradiction. In describing God's omnipotence, he seems to me to be saying, in part, that God has (is) a unitary "power" that, not being directed toward any single effect, can do all things.

    Yes, but my argument does not require that God’s power be directed to “some single effect”. It only requires that God’s power is directed to something other than God himself in order to be a power at all, and since only creation is “other than God himself”, it follows that God’s power is directed towards the act of creation.

    Which, again, seems to mean that one and the same active power is exercised no matter what God does or doesn't create. He doesn't, that is, have a "power to do X" and also a "power to do Y," either of which He might exercise or not; He has power, full stop, and it's just as "active" when, according to the determination of His will, He does X, Y, or neither.

    I agree that the power to do X remains exactly the same, irrespective of whether God actually does X or not. That is not the problem. The problem is that actually doing X is either distinct from the power to do X or not. If it is distinct from the power to do X, then Aquinas is wrong to say that God’s power is identical to his actions. If it is not distinct from the power to do X, then actually doing X (or not actually doing X) is identical to the divine essence, and thus God acts “by the necessity of his nature” (SCG 2.23.1) after all, such that if God “had” acted differently, then God would have “had” a different essence, which is impossible.

    It seems to be a simple denial that God has any active power at all, as the very definition of an active power is that the changes it causes lie outside the agent. The whole point of denying specifically passive potencies of God is precisely to make clear that God Himself isn't "changed" by His Own activity.

    I understand that, but the sticking point is Aquinas’ claim that “God's action is not distinct from His power, for both are His divine essence” (ST 1.25.1) and that “God’s power is not other than His action” (SCG 2.9.1). If that is true, then the end result is incoherence, because God must be different if God acts differently, which contradicts his immutability and impassibility. So, we must reject the position that God’s action is identical to his power, which means that they must be really distinct from one another. That would place God’s action outside of God himself, and in creation.

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  68. It is [now] clear that you were not claiming that unicorns and evolution are inconsistent, but that they are inconsistent if it is also not the case that there are any evolutionary ancestors of unicorns

    The biological reality of unicorns (as per my definition) would indeed overturn evolutionary theory. The idea that unicorns could evolve from some ancestral group is no less implausible than Haldane's "Cambrian rabbits".

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  69. Greg complains:

    Now you've changed your cadence to "what must have happened if evolution is true."

    It's a matter of falsifiability. For evolution to be true, certain constraints must be observed. A nested hierarchy of bifurcations (plus extinctions, niche availability etc) is one. "Unicorns" (were they to be found as a viable breeding population) would not fit into the pattern.

    Though one case of mythical beasts turns out to have an evolutionary explanation. DNA tests on a sample claimed to be from a yeti turned out to be an extinct sub-species of polar bear. link

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  70. Ed,

    I really hadn't expected that I'd need to return to this thread, as like you, I'm keen to bring our exchange to a close. However, I'd just like to respond briefly to a couple of your comments. You write:

    "What you are really all about is promoting ID, settling scores with people who don't respect ID, demanding respect for people who value ID. If you think you can do that by praising something I've written, you'll praise it; if you think this end would be better served by attacking something I've written, you'll come up with ways to attack it. But the cause of ID is always in the driver's seat."

    This is bizarre. I don't demand respect for Intelligent Design or for people who value ID. All I ask is that people (especially influential Catholic philosophers like yourself) recognize it as a philosophically legitimate and theologically orthodox point of view, even if they personally disagree with it. If someone says, "I don't think ID arguments are terribly convincing; Aquinas' Five Ways are much better," I'm cool with that.

    You seem genuinely upset by the fact that I praised your book Aquinas very highly back in 2010 and 2011, but that recently, I criticized the argument in your 2013 video as being full of holes. (If I were in your shoes, I would never let remarks like that bother me - after all, I'm nobody.) I've repeatedly tried to explain to you that: (i) I see you as a matchless exponent of Thomism and as a philosopher with deep metaphysical insights; (ii) I don't see you as a rigorous logician; (iii) at the end of my recent post, I pointed out ways in which the argument in your 2013 video could have been beefed up, and expressed my puzzlement that you didn't invoke them. Regarding (ii), you protest that if Aquinas was a rigorous logician, then surely you (whom I referred to as a "matchless" exponent of Aquinas) deserve to be called one too. Not so fast: as you're well aware, logic has come a long way since the 13th century. (And by the way, I wouldn't call Aquinas especially analytical; I see him more as a brilliant synthesist, which is why he gets more recognition than Duns Scotus, who was analytically more rigorous but less creative.) If you want to know what I mean by "analytical" in the 21st century, have a look at Robert Koons' paper, "A New Look at the Cosmological Argument." You'll see lots of mathematical notation, using the axioms of modal logic. That's what I like in an argument. Your papers are math-free. That may improve readability, but at the cost of precision and clarity.

    But even if you found these defenses of mine wholly unconvincing, don't I have the right to change my mind, over a period of four years?

    (To be continued...)

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  71. Hi Ed,

    Back again. I might add, in the interests of clarity, that describing you as a matchless exponent of Aquinas' arguments, which are rich in metaphysical insights, does not mean that I necessarily regard those arguments as sound or unproblematic. What it means is that you've articulated Aquinas' Five Ways about as well as anyone possibly could.

    Regarding my upcoming post, you write:

    "You're also going to title this forthcoming critique of yours 'On not putting all your theological eggs into one basket.' Obviously your aim is to sow in the minds of A-T sympathetic readers enough doubt about A-T arguments that they'll consider putting an egg or two in the ID basket, just in case."

    Actually, I won't be discussing ID at all in my forthcoming paper, except perhaps for a passing mention here or there. It is not my aim in this paper to defend ID. Rather, my aim is to show that the Aristotelian-Thomistic ground for regarding natural substances as contingent - namely, that they are composite - is insufficient, by itself. What I'm claiming is that making simplicity the lynchpin of your argument for God's existence is a very bad move, and has lots of dangerous theological consequences. In fact, if you push the doctrine of divine simplicity too far, it can backfire: it can be used to generate a pretty good argument for atheism. (I'm not joking.)

    You add: "So, you are obviously very, very keen to attack some argument of mine in retaliation for my criticisms of ID." Actually, that's not my motivation. You've been claiming for years that you had a knockdown demonstration of God's existence. That's a very tall claim, which invites scrutiny - and a very dangerous one, too. Certainty of God's existence beyond reasonable doubt should be good enough for us, and raising the evidential bar too high (as the rationalists did in the 17th century) can backfire, and lead to skepticism. I think your argument is less than demonstrative - but worse than that, I think it rests on premises (relating to how you construe God's simplicity) that could be used by a clever atheist to attack theism itself.

    Regarding what makes things contingent: I honestly don't know for sure, although I think it could be the fact that things are rule-governed. (The real problem here is that we don't really know what it means for something to exist, full stop.) What I'll endeavor to argue in my paper, however, is that there are a variety of reasons for regarding things as contingent, and that there's no need to focus exclusively on compositeness as a criterion for contingency. I see the various arguments for God's existence as converging and cumulative. An argument based on simplicity alone wouldn't convince me, for reasons I hope to explain in my upcoming paper.

    Well, that's really all I wanted to say, Ed. I just hope we can sort out our differences in the near future. All the best.

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  72. @ Alan Fox

    It's a matter of falsifiability.

    It is a matter of falsifiability, but falsifiability judgments are made over and against other background information. Your original claim was that "finding a unicorn" would falsify evolutionary theory. (You later denied this since it would have to be a population.) For that claim to be true, it would have to hold regardless of any epistemically possible undiscovered biological evidence.

    For evolution to be true, certain constraints must be observed. A nested hierarchy of bifurcations (plus extinctions, niche availability etc) is one. "Unicorns" (were they to be found as a viable breeding population) would not fit into the pattern.

    Why would they not fit? I agree they don't fit into the currently discovered tree--that is why they aren't on the currently discovered tree. But to sustain your claim it would have to be the case that no epistemically possible but currently unknown background information could suggest that there is some evolutionary pathway such that there would be another branch on the tree. Why would we believe this? We can discern two possible answers in what you've said so far:

    (1) The idea that unicorns could evolve from some ancestral group is no less implausible than Haldane's "Cambrian rabbits".

    (2) Addendum to unicorn as being an untenable evolutionary pathway. The point of fixation of the "horn" to the skull would sit right on top of the nasal cavity and frontal sinuses. This would be a dodgy place to have a horn in horses without beefing up the skull.

    But (1) is false. That we should discover fossils of rabbits from the Cambrian era would give good evidence that rabbits existed before the evolutionary pathway that evolution tells us leads to them did lead to them. The reason is that the fossil would come close to contradicting what we know about the evolution of rabbits; there would be an evolutionary pathway that we know doesn't account for all members of a species.

    On the other hand, it seems implausible that unicorns might evolve from what we know, but that is because there is no evidence suggesting such an evolutionary pathway. There is no "contradiction" of what the theory predicts in any sense similar to the case of Cambrian rabbit fossils.

    (2) is clearly not strong enough to account for all epistemically possible but currently unknown background information.

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  73. Daniel,

    I am deeply touched by your kind offer. My Web page is http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/index.html and if you click on my resume you'll find my address. (My resume is a little out-of-date, but the address is correct. If Japan is too far and too costly for you, and you'd prefer to reconsider your generous offer, then by all means do so.)

    You write: "Surely the time spent critiquing Ed would be more profitably spent defending ID (and presumably the intellectual comfort of all those individuals whose faith were at least partly based upon it) from the aforementioned theological accusations raised against it." Actually, I have already done that, and in considerable detail too, I might add. (I like to cover all bases; that's why my posts are long. However, I do try to break them up with lots of illustrations, headings and highlighting to make skimming easier.) Here are a few links to articles I've written:

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/four-metaphors-for-the-cosmos-a-story-about-a-watch-a-lute-a-recipe-and-a-symphony/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/intelligent-design-and-mechanism-laying-a-myth-to-rest/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/building-a-bridge-between-scholastic-philosophy-and-intelligent-design/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/what-makes-a-thing-a-thing-why-reality-has-to-be-built-from-the-bottom-up-as-well-as-from-the-top-down/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/was-paley-a-classical-theist-and-does-his-design-argument-lead-us-to-a-false-god/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/was-paley-a-mechanist/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/paleys-argument-from-design-did-hume-refute-it-and-is-it-an-argument-from-analogy/

    All of them are pertinent to the differences between A-T and ID, but if you had to pick just one, the third one is probably the most useful to you - especially Part Three. Thank you once again for your kindness, Daniel.

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  74. dguller said,

    The problem is that actually doing X is either distinct from the power to do X or not. If it is distinct from the power to do X, then Aquinas is wrong to say that God’s power is identical to his actions. If it is not distinct from the power to do X, then actually doing X (or not actually doing X) is identical to the divine essence, and thus God acts “by the necessity of his nature” (SCG 2.23.1) after all, such that if God “had” acted differently, then God would have “had” a different essence, which is impossible.

    I don't see how this argument would work. Actually doing X, in a productive case, necessarily includes more than the agent or producer itself because the expression includes the product, which is not the agent or producer. This remains true in the divine case; the predicate in 'God actually created the world' does not include only an action but also a product that is necessarily distinct from the agent and its action. Thus you cannot move from talking about the divine action itself, as in SCG 2.9, to talking about the divine action with its product as if the expressions were synonymous.

    This seems to me to be part of the point of SCG 2.10. When we are talking about divine action and divine power, we are actually talking about the same thing, considered in different ways; but because 'power' indicates priority, and there is nothing prior to divine action which could be power with respect to it, in the strict sense we talk about divine power not with respect to divine action but products to which God is prior. Thus it is only power, not action, that we attribute to God with respect to things extrinsic to Him, and in the strict sense we do so not with respect to action but with respect to what is made. Any distinction among actions at all is entirely a distinction we draw for our own convenience in reasoning, not because the distinction is really in God. But your argument needs there to be a fairly substantive distinction in actions in God Himself.

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  75. This is bizarre. I don't demand respect for Intelligent Design or for people who value ID. All I ask is that people (especially influential Catholic philosophers like yourself) recognize it as a philosophically legitimate and theologically orthodox point of view, even if they personally disagree with it. If someone says, "I don't think ID arguments are terribly convincing; Aquinas' Five Ways are much better," I'm cool with that.

    Vincent, you expressly tied your criticisms of Ed to his criticisms of ID. You openly offered to stop going after Ed if he stopped criticizing ID.

    It's done. Over. You're not going to be able to walk that back, and if you keep calling attention to the issue, you're going to be calling attention to that act on your part... and it's going to be enough to make your motivations loud and clear to anyone who's looking on. Many people engage in hatchet jobs for personal or political vendettas. It takes a special kind of person to openly admit to their motivations.

    You've blundered in the past with your interactions with Ed, but now you've pretty clearly sacrificed your integrity in the process. If you actually cared about presenting ID well, at this point you'd be pulling out of the conversation and just staying out of the Thomist waters. Instead, it seems like you're going to just keep raising the stakes. I can see the upcoming UD post: Ed Feser unwittingly plays into atheists' hands! Cosmological argument actually an argument for atheism and materialism! Only ID can save us from these perils!

    At which point, even if the residents of UD don't finally turn on you, all you'll do is establish to onlookers is that both you and (unfortunately, by association) ID is lodged firmly in the land of Cranksville.

    But, if you haven't listened so far, what are the odds you'll listen even now. And by the way, for anyone who cares, when Torley isn't attacking Ed in hatchet job posts, what does he have to say about prominent, virulent atheists?

    Nevertheless, in pointing out that children with Down syndrome are fully human, and that the lives of these children are worth living, New Atheist P.Z. Myers is on the side of the angels.

    Think about that one.

    Ed: Terrible logician, embarrassing arguments because he didn't give exhaustive explanations of complex arguments (that he's written multiple books about) in the space of a single talk. Can't recommend his arguments to anyone. So sayeth VJ Torley.

    PZ Myers: Argues that women aren't immoral for having children with Down Syndrome. They can abort or not abort whatever child they want that is their own and it's all morally licit. He is on the side of angels. So sayeth VJ Torley.

    Wow.

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  76. "Vincent, you expressly tied your criticisms of Ed to his criticisms of ID. You openly offered to stop going after Ed if he stopped criticizing ID."

    In fact, Vincent, you even accused Ed of starting this fight by criticizing ID, which you expressly noted that he had done before you'd ever written a word about him yourself.

    The cause of ID is obviously, as Ed "bizarre"ly put it, very much in the driver's seat, according to no less authoritative a source than your very own self.

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  77. By the way…

    "All I ask is that people (especially influential Catholic philosophers like yourself) recognize it as a philosophically legitimate and theologically orthodox point of view, even if they personally disagree with it."

    …what about people (especially influential Catholic philosophers like Edself) who regard it as a philosophically false and theologically risky point of view, even if it happens in many cases not to lead to worship a false god? On what basis do you ask them to keep their yaps shut just because you "personally disagree with" them?

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  78. (Sorry, that should be "worship of a false god.")

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  79. Vincent Torley on August 3, 2014:

    Let me state up-front that I am not claiming in this post that Aquinas’ cosmological argument is invalid; on the contrary, I consider it to be a deeply insightful argument, and I would warmly recommend Professor R. C. Koons’ paper...

    Vincent Torley on August 27, 2014:

    [Y]ou've articulated Aquinas' Five Ways about as well as anyone possibly could.

    That is, as well as anyone other than Robert Koons (for whom, it should be added, I have great respect).

    But really, Ed, how could you expect to create a convincing argument without using mathematical notation or the axioms of modal logic? You are an analytic philosopher, correct?

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  80. Vincent,

    My comparing what you said in 2010/11 and what you say in 2014 has nothing to do with my taking personal offense -- though of course, I understand why you would, for rhetorical purposes, like to think that it does. The reason for bringing it up is rather that it is clear evidence of the incoherence of your position, and an illustration of how that position is driven by political concerns having to do with how best to promote ID, rather than an interest in First Way-type arguments as such.

    The point, as I have already made crystal clear, is that the argument in my book on Aquinas that you praised in 2010/11 (praise you have already reaffirmed in this current exchange) and the argument you condemn in 2014 are, in all essentials, the same argument. The difference has only to do with the audiences to which they are presented, and thus the mode of presentation. Surely it is not news to you that philosophers often present things in different ways to different audiences depending on circumstances, level of audience knowledge, etc. And, since you brought him up, that includes Rob Koons. I imagine if Rob presented an informal version of his “New Look” argument, you wouldn’t say that it has “holes you could drive a truck through” etc. Instead, you would judge the argument according to context, according to other things he has written, etc. (Unless Rob started attacking ID, that is. If he ever does, I’m sure he will suddenly find himself subjected to the patented Torley “bad cop” treatment, with 45 single-spaced pages about how he has gotten his physics wrong, how he is not very “analytic” despite your previous praise for him, etc.)

    So, you simply cannot coherently say both that what I wrote in my Aquinas book is “matchless,” “second to none,” etc. and that what I said in the Vimeo lecture has “holes you could drive a truck through” etc. The obvious explanation for your current remarks, given all the evidence, is that you have a political motive for attacking the argument now that you did not have circa 2010/11. Namely, you now think, as you did not then, that attacking what I say about the First Way-style argument might somehow help counter my longstanding criticisms of ID.

    Nor will the stuff about how much you like “mathematical notation, use of the axioms of modal logic,” etc. fly, for two reasons. First, you highly praised what I said about the argument in my Aquinas book despite my not making use there of mathematical notation, modal logic, etc. So, it would be silly to suggest (if this is what you are doing) that the lack of such technical apparatus in the Vimeo talk is one of the reasons you are critical of it.

    Second, it is ridiculous to pretend that a philosopher’s predilection for “mathematical notation, use of the axioms of modal logic, etc.” is some neutral standard of his rigor. For as you surely know, the formal techniques favored by many analytic philosophers are by no means philosophically neutral. They often embody philosophical assumptions (about modality, existence, etc.) which many Thomists would reject. Indeed, as I put it some time ago in a post on Robert Nozick:

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/12/greene-on-nozick-on-nothing.html

    the “use of formalisms of the sort fetishized by analytic philosophers… can generate obfuscation rather than rigor” precisely insofar as they make what are really just tendentious philosophical assumptions seem neutral and something to be taken for granted. Anyway, perhaps this “use of formalisms = philosophical rigor” stuff is some silly prejudice you picked up in grad school and haven’t yet seen through. Or perhaps it is an ad hoc move you thought up as a way to rationalize your criticism of what I said in the Vimeo talk.

    (continued)

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  81. (continued)

    Nor is it any good suddenly to suggest that maybe you’ve just “changed your mind” since 2011. For you’ve already said in this exchange that you still agree with the judgment you made about my Aquinas book back then. Nor will it do to suggest that what you really mean in praising my Aquinas book is merely that I did “about as well as anyone possibly could” in expounding Aquinas’s arguments but that you don’t “necessarily regard those arguments as sound or unproblematic.” For you just said in your recent post on my Vimeo talk:

    Let me state up-front that I am not claiming in this post that Aquinas’ cosmological argument is invalid; on the contrary, I consider it to be a deeply insightful argument, and I would warmly recommend Professor R. C. Koons’ paper, A New Look at the Cosmological Argument and Professor Paul Herrick’s lengthy essay, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons (2009).

    Now, if Rob is in your view more analytically rigorous than I am and you commend his Aquinas-related work on the cosmological argument to your readers, then how could it be that you think it is Feser who does “about as well as anyone possibly could” in defending an Aquinas-style argument? And why are you so eager now to downplay your regard for the strength of Aquinas-style arguments when you were, just a few weeks ago, trying to play up your regard for such arguments?

    In short, you simply can’t get your story straight, Vincent. You are flailing about, trying desperately to find some respectable way to account for the difference between what you said in 2010/11 and what you say now, but you have no coherent way of doing so. Your motivation for making your most recent remarks remains manifestly political: You don’t like what I say about ID, and you are attacking what I have said about First Way-style arguments for that reason.

    A further point: It isn’t clear that you know what it means, from a Thomistic point of view, to call something a “demonstration.” It has nothing to do with rationalism of the Leibnizian sort. Furthermore, to call something a “demonstration” does not mean that you think that every reasonable person will assent to it. And contrary to the impression you give at the beginning of your post on my Vimeo talk, if a philosopher’s purported demonstration embodies philosophical assumptions that other philosophers would challenge, it doesn’t follow that this attempted demonstration is really just a “probabilistic” argument after all. As usual, you are reading into what I write things that are not there, and presenting as a devastating objection what is really just a tangle of confusions. Anyway, I plan to say something about demonstration in a forthcoming post.

    As for this forthcoming post of yours arguing that what I say about divine simplicity threatens us with atheism…

    Whatever, dude. Really, Vincent, I don’t know where you come up with this stuff. I especially love, by the way, how you casually drop this little suggestion after having just gotten huffy about those mean Thomists who hurt the feelings of ID fans by suggesting that their conception of God is deficient.

    But no, there ain’t no score-settling to see here folks, just move along please…

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  82. Anon,

    Yup, that about nails it. Tonight on Vince Torley Coast to Coast: New Atheist P.Z. Myers is on the side of the angels. Meanwhile, Ed Feser's defense of divine simplicity threatens us with atheism. Don't touch that dial.

    Just matchless, matchless stuff, as Torley would say.

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  83. Ed and Anonymous,

    So you think I'm too nice to P.Z. Myers? Really? I've just put up a lengthy post attacking his views on abortion:

    www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/p-z-myers-channels-judith-jarvis-thomson-on-abortion-dawkins-disagrees/

    Oh, and what about this very public spat I had with him back in 2011?

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/newborn-babies-not-persons-and-not-fully-human-p-z-myers/

    Or this one in March 2014?

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-not-learning-the-lessons-of-history-what-professor-pz-myers-doesnt-get-about-the-progress-of-science-part-one/

    I suggest you both get your facts straight.

    As for my openly offering to stop "going after Ed" (in your words) if he stopped criticizing ID: I have absolutely no intention of walking that one back. Where I come from that's called offering an olive branch. I really don't like criticizing the views of fellow Catholics - especially when the real motivation behind most of my posts is to attack atheism.

    Contrary to what you think, offering to refrain from criticizing Ed if he refrained from attacking ID does not mean that my original reason for responding to Ed's posts was simply that he criticized ID. Actually, what worried me at the time (back in 2010) was that since Ed is widely respected as a Catholic philosopher, Rome would issue a condemnation of ID, based on his biased perspective. That was my real motivation in responding to Ed with such tenacity: I knew he was a man of influence, and I wanted to set the record straight, because I didn't want to see the most popular lay argument for God's existence condemned by the Vatican as bad theology - or even worse, heresy. (Yes, I know Ed didn't say that, but his post saying that the God of the design arguments is a false God - a Demiurge - might have been taken by some people as implying that, and it really put the wind up me.) I might add that pointing out that the Fifth Way is quite different from design arguments is one thing; sinking the boot into design arguments is another.

    Finally, my upcoming post won't have any dramatic headlines; it will be respectful and irenic.

    I've said as much as I can in explanation of my motives, and I have no wish to further muddy the waters, so I shall say no more.

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  84. Mr. Torley wrote: It's one thing to state ... that if an argument might instantiate an invalid form and at the same time might instantiate a valid form, then charity dictates that the latter should be the preferred interpretation. But it's another thing entirely when (as you acknowledge) your argument is "truncated," and key premises are omitted. The problem then is not so much with my interpretation of the argument as with your statement of it."

    So, every time an argument is presented, it is flawed if it is in any way truncated?

    Or only when "key premises" are omitted?

    Shall we also be required to demonstrate first principles at the beginning of every argument?

    When discussing particle physics, shall we first defend Euclidean geometric principles, since of course, these are "key premises" for the analysis of vectors and tensors?

    Perhaps this is why your prose suffers not from the accident quantity ...

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  85. So you think I'm too nice to P.Z. Myers? Really? I've just put up a lengthy post attacking his views on abortion:

    I'm drawing a comparison between how you approach Ed and how you approached PZ in that post.

    You were willing to find PZ on "the side of angels" for the tiniest sliver of a reason. Ed, meanwhile, gets savaged by you for... come to think of it, the tiniest sliver of a reason.

    Look, I'm being hard on you. But ask yourself if maybe you deserve it, and maybe your conduct has not been, shall we say, particularly encouraging. Say you got carried away in a blog dispute. Say Ed rubbed you the wrong way. But I think what you'd best say most of all is "mea culpa" and just drop this. Ed's not on Team ID, he's scorched you in the past. Transparently going after him because, apparently, your vision of the ID movement cannot suffer prominent conservative naysayers is a bad idea.

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  86. Mr Torley wrote:
    Contrary to what you think, offering to refrain from criticizing Ed if he refrained from attacking ID does not mean that my original reason for responding to Ed's posts was simply that he criticized ID. Actually, what worried me ... Rome would issue a condemnation of ID, based on his biased perspective. That was my real motivation in responding to Ed with such tenacity: I knew he was a man of influence, and I wanted to set the record straight, because I didn't want to see the most popular lay argument for God's existence condemned by the Vatican as bad theology - or even worse, heresy.

    Don't worry.

    That's not how the Catholic Church works.

    Dr. Feser doesn't have a red phone with a hotline to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

    If bad, arguably heretical theologians like Teillhard de Cardin, de Lubac and Karl Rahner are not condemned for their errors, I think ID is probably not on the Holy See's radar.

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  87. Vincent Torley: You'll see lots of mathematical notation, using the axioms of modal logic. That’s what I like in an argument.

    Um. Really?

    Well, in that case: (a + b)/n = X … therefore ID is not theologically legitimate.
    Q.E.D.

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  88. Vincent Torley: Actually, what worried me at the time (back in 2010) was that since Ed is widely respected as a Catholic philosopher, Rome would issue a condemnation of ID, based on his biased perspective.

    That’s never going to happen. I can’t even fathom how it would be supposed to happen. The most that the Vatican would ever say on the matter is perhaps issuing some sort of statement reiterating standard doctrine about God’s transcendence as creator or something along those lines. And we are constantly assured that ID in no way contradicts those doctrines, but if it actually did, then you ought to be condemning ID anyway.

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  89. Hi, I have 2 questions regarding the Thomistic account of free will. In particular, I'm wondering how Aquinas/ a Thomist would respond to the following:

    1. Suppose that a scientist is able to "control the variables," as it were, such that he is able to restore the appropriate context in which a murder occurs and "repeat" the experiment. In other words, it's as if the scientist is able to "reset" time back to moments before the murder occurs. Suppose the scientist restores the context/ "resets time" n times. Also, suppose the murderer knows that murder is wrong. Further, suppose the scientist is completely invisible to the actors involved in the murder. Will the events of some experiment instance n1 occur in precisely the same fashion as the events of some experiment instance n2, where n1 and n2 are distinct? That is, will the murderer kill the victim every time?

    2. Is it the case that a human's free will is a flaw? From what I understand, for Aquinas, the will is free only because the human intellect is imperfect. As an illustration, consider two humans: X and Y. Suppose that Y's intellect is superior to X's intellect. Further, suppose that both human X and human Y wish to will some particular good Z, and suppose the (inferior) intellect of human X presents to the will of human X a collection of possible means, say C, by which to carry out Y. Suppose that, for human X's intellect, things are sufficiently ambiguous that multiple methods of carrying out good Z appear equally satisfying. However, for human Y, despite also being aware of the collection of methods C, his intellect is sufficiently developed that it finds one course of action among C to be the most attractive. Is it the case that Y's will is "less free" than X's will?

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  90. I should reword question 2 as: "is it the case that a humans will is flawed insofar as that it is free?"

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  91. Ed,

    I'm willing to acknowledge, in retrospect, that my last post on your Aristotelian argument for the existence of God was somewhat uncharitable towards you. There was an element of "payback," shall we say, for what I saw as your repeated denigration of ID, and although I endeavored to remain civil for the most part, some of the things I wrote were rather harsh.

    As regards doing you (and your arguments) an injustice: I honestly thought at the time that a one-hour talk in front of a friendly audience would give you ample time to present your argument fully, and in a logically rigorous fashion, at its very best. (After all, I've watched videos of philosophers like William Lane Craig doing that.) However, since you insist that it was not enough time for you to make your case as a philosopher arguing for classical theism, I will take your word for it, and acknowledge that by focusing exclusively on your video, I did you wrong.

    Having said that, I would like to say something. I have made a genuine effort, over the years, to bridge the gap between Intelligent Design and Scholastic philosophy. I'm referring to the following articles of mine. which took me hundreds of hours to write and put together in a fashion that I hoped would make them accessible to readers of all backgrounds. (Selecting the illustrations alone took me ages.) Here are the links:

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/four-metaphors-for-the-cosmos-a-story-about-a-watch-a-lute-a-recipe-and-a-symphony/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/intelligent-design-and-mechanism-laying-a-myth-to-rest/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/building-a-bridge-between-scholastic-philosophy-and-intelligent-design/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/what-makes-a-thing-a-thing-why-reality-has-to-be-built-from-the-bottom-up-as-well-as-from-the-top-down/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/was-paley-a-classical-theist-and-does-his-design-argument-lead-us-to-a-false-god/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/was-paley-a-mechanist/

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/paleys-argument-from-design-did-hume-refute-it-and-is-it-an-argument-from-analogy/

    You may not have enough time to read them, Ed, but to dismiss this painstaking labor of mine as "logorrhea," as if I were some Internet "nutter," really was rather rude. At the very least, you could have put up a post, saying "Vincent Torley has written some interesting articles on Scholasticism and ID. What do readers think of them? Comments, anyone?" That would have been enough.

    At any rate, rest assured that in my next post, I will bend over backwards to be fair to you.

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  92. Greg:

    ...it seems implausible that unicorns might evolve from what we know, but that is because there is no evidence suggesting such an evolutionary pathway. There is no "contradiction" of what the theory predicts in any sense similar to the case of Cambrian rabbit fossils.

    There are such things as rabbits. Unicorns are human constructs, like dragons and mermaids. One could suggest that a unicorn is less implausible than a mermaid on a superficial level, but it also illustrates the limits of human imagination. Marco Polo gave a description of a "unicorn" that suggests he had seen (or had accurately described to him) a rhinoceros but when narwhal tusks (actually a very-much modified canine tooth) began to turn up in medieval Europe, the legend (and the magical attributes of the unicorn's horn) solidified around the tusk and the horse.

    The narwhal canine illustrates the point that evolution does not create de novo but is the result of a process of successive modifications to already viable organism. There must be a complete unbroken sequence of inheritance passing through individuals that resembled their parents and offspring and all were able to survive and breed.

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  93. Ahh, I have arrived rather late for all this.

    @Vincent Torley,

    Not a problem at all. I’ve ordered a copy to be sent from Germany via Amazon. Japan wasn’t expected but presents no problem – in fact I doubt it would have been much different were you US or Antipodes based.

    Thank you for the links. There is no problem with the length; thoroughness is a virtue. I have seen some of them – from my own perspective I find the article on the relationship between Paley and Mechanism particularly interesting in relation to views others like Boyle held (not that I agree necessarily mind, it’s just interesting to note that as with Descartes and Hume the positions commonly associated with then may not have been their own). I’m sure the others raise interesting questions even if the area is not one I have much time for at present.

    I must be off now off new but a few brief thoughts:

    Variations of the First Way were defended by Aristotilians who resisted a Real Distinction between Essence and Existence such as Ibn Rushd and Maimonides. Nearly all Classical Theists upheld Divine Conservation regardless of their views on the subject. Generally speaking it is the Third Way which constitutes an argument from Contingency proper and which Ed has sought to buttress with reference to the Distinction (other Thomists have taken different approaches such as Robert Maydole’s modal take on the Argument).

    ‘Actually, what worried me at the time (back in 2010) was that since Ed is widely respected as a Catholic philosopher, Rome would issue a condemnation of ID, based on his biased perspective.’

    I don’t think that’s likely. You yourself admit that ID alone does not reveal the God of Classical Theism so the ‘false God’ charge doesn’t stick since you are not claiming Natural Theology lives by ID alone. Likewise if you claim it alone only proposes a sort of Designer but such is a good first step then Ed’s own comments to that effect shouldn’t sting. The related claims about Analogy only hold within a Thomist framework. What concerns us is whether the theories involved actually hold and whether they commit one to Mechanism and the legion of Ontological, Mereological and epistemological problems that follow. Of course you would disagree on these yet even if you were to profess a straight Cartesianism I don’t think you need fear much theological censorship.

    Classical Theist thought has been developing in complexity and sophistication for millennia, in fact probably since the dawn of time. If Ed were to satisfactorily explicate all the core points touched upon in that video it would take dozens of volumes. Somewhere he makes the point that establishing the existence of God is relatively straight forward once one clarifies Ontology and Philosophy of Nature. This means it will follow a different methodological route than that taken by primarily apologetic philosophers like Craig and co.

    Anyway, I must return to my Phenomenology studies.

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  94. @ Vincent

    I honestly thought at the time that a one-hour talk in front of a friendly audience would give you ample time to present your argument fully, and in a logically rigorous fashion, at its very best. (After all, I've watched videos of philosophers like William Lane Craig doing that.) However, since you insist that it was not enough time for you to make your case as a philosopher arguing for classical theism, I will take your word for it, and acknowledge that by focusing exclusively on your video, I did you wrong.

    In fairness to Ed, you pick through his very brief comments on the divine attributes and accuse him of a bunch of fallacies, while Craig's argument for the divine attributes (for the kalam argument as presented in debates, anyway) mainly consists in claiming that what causes the universe would have to be a disembodied mind, all-powerful, etc. A lot of people dispute that intuition; I imagine he defends it at greater length in his works, but his debate strategy appears to be to make the plausible claim and then defend it if his opponent actually does dispute it. (For example, he claims that, because immaterial, it would have to be a disembodied mind or an abstract number. An abstract number can't act, so it's a disembodied mind. But he's presenting the argument to a number of people who would probably dispute that disembodied minds are possible. At the very least, an aporia is generated, but we don't expect Craig to resolve it in his debate.)

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  95. ... because I didn't want to see the most popular lay argument for God's existence condemned by the Vatican as bad theology - or even worse, heresy

    As other commenters have noted, the Vatican doesn't give a fig what Ed thinks about ID, if it is even aware of his views.

    In any case, I thought ID was at pains to restrict itself to purely scientific conclusions about intelligent design, while demurring from any conclusions about who the designer might be. If so, then lay people who think it is an argument for God's existence should be corrected.

    If it is an argument for God's existence, then, among other things, the secular ID critics are right that it's not really just about "science". But more importantly than that, Ed is right that it is a poor argument. What distinguishes God as God is that He is Being Itself, the transcendent Creator, and an argument that remains strictly withing immanent causation (as ID must do if it is to claim to be scientific) can't get you a millimeter closer to the true God. Only arguments to transcendent causation (of which Aquinas's five ways are variations) can do that.

    So either lay people are mistaken that ID is an argument for God's existence, or they are mistaken about the nature of God and what it takes to establish His Existence.

    If the most popular lay argument for the existence of God is a bad argument, then it needs to be discarded... not kept around simply because it is effective on the ignorant.

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  96. Hi Daniel,

    Thank you very much for ordering Scholastic Metaphysics for me. I really appreciate that.

    You seem quite knowledgeable about Jewish and Muslim medieval philosophers.

    Re the design argument: I'd describe it as an incomplete argument for God's existence. ID (here I'm including the cosmological as well as the biological version) can take you to a Designer of the cosmos Who is outside Nature. It doesn't tell you much about the Designer's attributes, however. Having got to that stage, though, most laypeople (having been raised within the Abrahamic tradition) instinctively recognize that only an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Being constitutes an adequate explanation of the cosmos, although I imagine they'd be hard pressed to say exactly why - so you could say they're making an argumentative leap from the Designer to the God of classical theism.

    Thanks again, Daniel.

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  97. Mr Torley wrote:
    ID (here I'm including the cosmological as well as the biological version) can take you to a Designer of the cosmos Who is outside Nature ... most laypeople ... instinctively ... leap from the Designer to the God of classical theism.

    I'd grant you that ID does provide (at least in the biological form, with which I am most familiar from Dr. Behe) a good argument that the Darwinian process is not sufficiently explanitory. Dr Behe, in the Edge of Evolution does a very nice job of showing the mathematical difficulties (even if we could argue about the actual numbers) and thus highly unlikely nature that random mutation can explain things.

    The problem is, I would assert that you are wrong that ID can get you to a "Designer of the Cosmos" or a "Designer of a Biological System". ID by the nature of its scope can adequately show inadequacy, but does not provide metaphysical certainty of order, final cause or design.

    Philosophic arguments do, provided their premises are sound. The Aristotelian-Thomistic ones do have sound premises.

    Yes, ID does provide a very convienient argument many will accept that we do see obviously ordered system, and this requires an intelligence, but that because people are using common sense.

    The New Atheists and their materialist/mechanistic friends don't. You're never going to get them to make the leaps and assumptions that the average layman who accept the "most popular argiment for God's existence" will make.

    If they don't make those assumptions and are logically rigorous they are left with ID providing some probability of "design".

    On the other hand, if the premises of Scholastic Metaphysics are correct then the various arguments for God's existence are metaphysically certain arguments. That is, they absolutely exclude any other possibility. Thus the argument is not probabistic at all, but definitive.

    So, David T is right.

    If ID is meant as an argument for God, then it's a bad argument from a philosophical standpoint. Not heretical bad, mind you.

    If, on the other hand, ID is not meant to be an argument for God (or a definitive argument for a designer) but merely a a probabalistic argument designed to show that an undesigned cosmos/biological structure is so unlikely that it could be effectively exculded, then people do need to be corrected as to what ID is.

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  98. . ID (here I'm including the cosmological as well as the biological version) can take you to a Designer of the cosmos Who is outside Nature. It doesn't tell you much about the Designer's attributes, however. Having got to that stage, though, most laypeople (having been raised within the Abrahamic tradition) instinctively recognize that only an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Being constitutes an adequate explanation of the cosmos, although I imagine they'd be hard pressed to say exactly why - so you could say they're making an argumentative leap from the Designer to the God of classical theism.

    "Instinctively recognize" doesn't mean anything more than, "if people are culturally programmed to think in a certain way, then they will tend to think in that way".

    And the 'argumentative leap' here is the same one that Hume pointed out (in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion and Book XI of the Enquiry and Kant (in the critique of the 'physico-theological proof' in the Critique of Pure Reason. This is not new. There's just no deductive or inductive argument that has only assertions about the empirical world in its premises and an assertion about the transcendent Creator in its conclusion. Feser is wise to avoid such arguments and stick with an a priori argument grounded in the analysis of causation. (Whether one can get any metaphysics out of conceptual analysis alone is another question altogether.)

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  99. @Brandon:

    Actually doing X, in a productive case, necessarily includes more than the agent or producer itself because the expression includes the product, which is not the agent or producer. This remains true in the divine case; the predicate in 'God actually created the world' does not include only an action but also a product that is necessarily distinct from the agent and its action. Thus you cannot move from talking about the divine action itself, as in SCG 2.9, to talking about the divine action with its product as if the expressions were synonymous.

    Aquinas himself makes a distinction between divine action that is directed towards a product outside of God himself (e.g. creating the universe) and divine action that is directed towards God himself (e.g. exercising his intellect and will). But then he contradicts himself. He says that only divine action that is directed towards something outside of God himself can be associated with a divine power, which means that the action itself cannot be fully in God, but rather be either fully or partly outside of God and in the product itself. He also says that the divine power is the divine action, which can only be true if the divine action is fully in God, but then it would exclusively be limited to divine action that is directed towards God himself, and thus remains fully within God himself, and thus cannot be associated with a power at all, because on divine action that is directed outside of God himself can be associated with a power. So, there is no equivocation here. Clearly, one must reject either Aquinas’ claim that (a) divine power is not distinct from divine action or (b) his claim that divine power can only be associated with divine action that is directed outside of God himself.

    When we are talking about divine action and divine power, we are actually talking about the same thing, considered in different ways; but because 'power' indicates priority, and there is nothing prior to divine action which could be power with respect to it, in the strict sense we talk about divine power not with respect to divine action but products to which God is prior. Thus it is only power, not action, that we attribute to God with respect to things extrinsic to Him, and in the strict sense we do so not with respect to action but with respect to what is made. Any distinction among actions at all is entirely a distinction we draw for our own convenience in reasoning, not because the distinction is really in God. But your argument needs there to be a fairly substantive distinction in actions in God Himself.

    But then what is the status of “divine action” with respect to creation itself? It seems that you are saying that, in reality, there is only the divine power, which is identical to the divine essence, and “things extrinsic to Him”. All talk of “divine action” is just a projection of our minds that is rooted in how we happen to conceive and understand God in our limited fashion. And when Aquinas says that divine power is identical to divine action, he is basically saying that divine action is an artificial projection of our minds upon the divine reality, whereas in reality, there is only divine power and the external product of that power with no real presence of divine action at all. But that seems inconsistent with how Aquinas usually talks about the interconvertibility of divine attributes by virtue of divine simplicity. He does not say that the divine intellect is just a projection of our mind, whereas the divine will is the true reality. What he says is that they both point to the exact same underlying reality, and any differences between them are projections of our finite minds upon that one and the same divine reality. So, there clearly is a tension here.

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  100. I'd grant you that ID does provide (at least in the biological form, with which I am most familiar from Dr. Behe) a good argument that the Darwinian process is not sufficiently explanitory.

    Andrew, I believe Feser wrote some time back (I don't remember where) that he doesn't have a problem with ID in its purely negative formulation - i.e. showing the unlikelihood that Darwinian processes can account for biological structure. In that context its OK to assume a false philosophy of nature (the mechanistic one) for the sake of argument.

    The problem is when ID tries to do anything more than this, like start drawing conclusions about what might be responsible for biological structure, because in order to do that, you've got to start from the proper philosophy of nature (which is AT). This includes any "design" conclusions, because the nature of design depends on our philosophy of nature.

    But ID advocates can't seem to keep themselves to the strictly negative formulation, which is why Feser has given up on the whole thing. (If I have heard him right.) Especially since it is just better to start with the right philosophy of nature in the first place.

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  101. Kantian,

    That "instinctively recognize" bit certainly was teed up for a Humean knockdown, wasn't it?

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  102. dguller,

    But then what is the status of “divine action” with respect to creation itself?

    I don't know what this question is asking. Are you talking about the act of creation, or are you talking about creation in the sense of what is created? What is 'status' supposed to mean here? I certainly don't think Aquinas is saying that it's all a projection in our minds, or that only divine power applies to God, or any of the other things you mention.

    Aquinas himself makes a distinction between divine action that is directed towards a product outside of God himself (e.g. creating the universe) and divine action that is directed towards God himself (e.g. exercising his intellect and will). But then he contradicts himself. He says that only divine action that is directed towards something outside of God himself can be associated with a divine power, which means that the action itself cannot be fully in God, but rather be either fully or partly outside of God and in the product itself.

    This does not seem to be what he says, though. What he says is that since power by definition has the priority of principle, 'power' is only a strictly proper term to use when we are talking about principles prior to something else; since God is simple, there is no power at all that is a principle prior to divine action, so we only talk about divine power, in the most proper sense, when we are talking about God as the principle prior to his effects. In other words: if you are talking about power, you are talking priority as origin; so in each case, in order to speak properly, you have to ask how the priority comes into play. God's action understood as having effects is divine power, because it has priority over effects as their origin. But there is no power in the sense of something prior to divine action from which it originates, so one is not speaking properly if one speaks of a power prior to action in God Himself. There is no contradiction here; nor, as far as I can see, any indication that any of God's actions are not fully in God.

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  103. As a side note, it is perhaps worth pointing out that this position is almost certainly the reason for a feature of the organization of Summa Theologiae that might otherwise be thought peculiar -- Aquinas discusses divine power last. This is because divine power just is divine action insofar as it has an effect.

    Also, as a confirmation for my interpretation, Aquinas makes the same argument at ST 1.25.1 ad 3.

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  104. Don Jindra: I'm of the opinion the distinction between imagining and conceiving is not clear at all. I feel the same about per se and per accidens which is why in my strange mind I put the pair of terms in the same sentence. It's as if there's a parallel there, a two legged metaphysical quirk that looms over me, demonic, infinitely tall and uncaused. It haunts me day and night. That's my psychological diagnosis.

    Thanks for your response. Of course, if the meaning of imagining vs. conceiving, or per se vs. per accidens is not clear, then surely there is no point going further with any criticisms or discussion, because if you have a confused understanding of what’s being discussed, anything you try to say about it will also be confused.

    Nevertheless, I'm still trying to intellectually grasp how one could see without a body or push a stick through a "time gate" today that moves a stone simultaneously 1000 years from now.

    I dare say you do grasp it — you know what the words “see” and “without” and “body” mean, right? In fact, I’d venture that you wouldn't have a problem with it if you actually could’t grasp the idea itself. But I said I wouldn’t get into the philosophy. What I was looking for is an explanation for why you thought that Feser defined conceiving as "something your intellect can easily grasp”. Given the statement he made in the book, what step-by-step process went through your mind to arrive at that conclusion? I think it’s those intermediate steps where the interest lies, and it would help to know what reasoning you used to get there.

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  105. @Brandon:

    Are you talking about the act of creation, or are you talking about creation in the sense of what is created? What is 'status' supposed to mean here? I certainly don't think Aquinas is saying that it's all a projection in our minds, or that only divine power applies to God, or any of the other things you mention.

    Thanks for the clarification. Here’s how I understand your position.

    Divine power is identical to divine action, and each is only notionally distinct from the other. However, our conception of power necessarily implies the priority of power to action, and thus there would have to be a real distinction between divine power (as prior) and divine action (as posterior), which is impossible, because they are identical in reality. And that makes perfect sense when it comes to intrinsic divine actions, such as the operation of divine intellect and will, for example.

    However, when we talk about extrinsic divine actions, such as the act of creation, then we can talk about divine power as prior to the act of creation. After all, the divine power to create the universe remains fully actualized in God from eternity, and would remain so, irrespective of whether God actually created the universe or not, and as such, that power is prior to the act of creation. This kind of divine action cannot be identical divine power, because if it were, then a God that created the universe would have a different divine essence than a God that did not create the universe, which is absurd.

    That is all fine and good, but it still involves Aquinas in a contradiction.

    The only kind of divine power that can properly be predicated of God is the divine power to perform an extrinsic divine action. After all, if power necessarily implies priority, then only extrinsic divine action can have anything prior to it. Intrinsic divine action lacks any priority whatsoever, and thus cannot involve power of any kind. But extrinsic divine actions cannot possibly be identical divine power, because it would follow that extrinsic divine actions are identical to the divine essence, which would mean that different divine actions would imply different divine essences, which is impossible. In fact, only intrinsic divine actions can be identical to the divine essence. Therefore, if divine power is identical to divine action, then divine power must exist, and the only way for divine power to exist is in relation to extrinsic divine action, which cannot possibly be identical to divine power at all.

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  106. Andrew,

    You write:

    "On the other hand, if the premises of Scholastic Metaphysics are correct then the various arguments for God's existence are metaphysically certain arguments. That is, they absolutely exclude any other possibility. Thus the argument is not probabilistic at all, but definitive."

    I'm afraid the arguments are not as demonstrative as you assume - which is why we need cumulative and converging arguments for God's existence, as I hope to explain in my forthcoming post.

    The New Atheists and their materialist/mechanistic friends are incapable of taking the metaphysical claims in Aristotelian-Thomistic arguments seriously, firstly because they don't trust metaphysics as a valid source of knowledge, and secondly because they are (for the most part) utterly incapable of grasping A-T metaphysics - it's just too alien to their mind-set. ID is a bridge that argues for a mentalistic explanation of reality on purely scientific grounds. Only when New Atheists have crossed that bridge will they be able to even consider metaphysical arguments.

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  107. @Vincent Torley

    So will you take my offer to write something short for peer review and then drop this?

    I kindly suggest reading over a few things I have said.

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  108. @ Vincent

    The New Atheists and their materialist/mechanistic friends are incapable of taking the metaphysical claims in Aristotelian-Thomistic arguments seriously, firstly because they don't trust metaphysics as a valid source of knowledge, and secondly because they are (for the most part) utterly incapable of grasping A-T metaphysics - it's just too alien to their mind-set. ID is a bridge that argues for a mentalistic explanation of reality on purely scientific grounds. Only when New Atheists have crossed that bridge will they be able to even consider metaphysical arguments.

    Maybe you are more familiar with the fruits of spreading ID to New Atheists, but I'm not aware of them. Keith Parsons and Jeffrey Jay Lowder seem to have come to respect A-T metaphysics, but as far as I'm aware they regard ID as totally unserious. It would also be important to distinguish ID and fine tuning; Flew and Smart both took fine tuning seriously but were probably more impressed by A-T metaphysics than with the position that evolution is some sort of systematically flawed theory.

    And these aren't even "New Atheists" as that term is generally used. I'm not claiming that any of these authors are correct in rejecting ID, for I am not qualified to assess that, but I'm trying to understand the claim that, considering the issue purely from the perspective of generating conversions of intelligent atheists, ID actually serves as a respectable middle ground between materialism/mechanism and A-T metaphysics. I mean, perhaps there's Nagel who has claimed that ID should be taken seriously and moved in an Aristotelian direction. (But he was never a New Atheist, nor a dogmatic materialist anyway.) But I'm personally unable to identify anyone else.

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  109. dguller,

    However, when we talk about extrinsic divine actions, such as the act of creation, then we can talk about divine power as prior to the act of creation.

    Not quite. When we talk about the act of creation, we can talk about the act of creation itself as prior to what is created and thus, with respect to what is created, we can call the divine action that creates divine power.

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  110. @Brandon:

    Not quite. When we talk about the act of creation, we can talk about the act of creation itself as prior to what is created and thus, with respect to what is created, we can call the divine action that creates divine power.

    But if the “divine action that creates” is identical to the divine essence, then the absence of the divine action that creates would be tantamount to the absence of the divine essence, which is incoherent. Therefore, the divine action that creates cannot be identical to the divine essence, and thus cannot be identical to the divine power, which is identical to the divine essence.

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  111. Or to put it in other words, the distinction you are making between actions is not Aquinas's. He does not distinguish divine action into intrinsic action and extrinsic action, with the latter only being given the name power; he deliberately does not distinguish divine action at all, all divine action being one divine thing in God, and merely distinguishes the kinds of true attributions we can make. Sometimes we think about the divine action simply in terms of its being an action (e.g., knowing, loving), and sometimes we think about it in that it is a principle for effects other than itself (e.g., power, providence). 'Power' is not properly prior to any divine action at all; 'power' is just a term for divine action considered a certain way.

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  112. But if the “divine action that creates” is identical to the divine essence, then the absence of the divine action that creates would be tantamount to the absence of the divine essence, which is incoherent.

    But 'divine action that creates' is an extrinsic denomination: we are identifying the divine action not in its own terms but in terms of what follows from it. This is the point I made previously when talking about 'actually doing X' in productive cases: by definition any description of something qua productive is a description of it involving something other than the action itself.

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  113. @Brandon:

    Or to put it in other words, the distinction you are making between actions is not Aquinas's. He does not distinguish divine action into intrinsic action and extrinsic action, with the latter only being given the name power; he deliberately does not distinguish divine action at all, all divine action being one divine thing in God, and merely distinguishes the kinds of true attributions we can make. Sometimes we think about the divine action simply in terms of its being an action (e.g., knowing, loving), and sometimes we think about it in that it is a principle for effects other than itself (e.g., power, providence). 'Power' is not properly prior to any divine action at all; 'power' is just a term for divine action considered a certain way.

    But he distinguishes at ST 1.19.3 between divine actions that are necessary in an absolute sense and other divine actions that are necessary in a relative sense (i.e. the action itself is originally contingent, but becomes necessary by supposition). It seems that the former divine actions are intrinsic in the sense that they entirely focused upon himself, because they are essentially identical to himself, whereas the latter divine actions are extrinsic in the sense that they are focused upon what is other than himself, i.e. creation. So, if there is no distinction between divine action, because “all divine action” is “one divine thing in God”, then there is no distinction between divine action that is necessary absolutely versus divine action that is necessary by supposition.

    Also, if power is “not properly prior to any divine action at all”, then there is simply no such thing as divine power at all, except in our limited manner of understanding, which we then project upon the divine reality. And if there is no sense to ascribing power to God, then what sense is there in saying that God could have acted differently? Clearly, his divine actions are identical to his divine essence, and different divine actions would result in a different divine essence, which is absurd, because God is supposed to remain God, irrespective of what he wills to do from eternity.

    But 'divine action that creates' is an extrinsic denomination: we are identifying the divine action not in its own terms but in terms of what follows from it. This is the point I made previously when talking about 'actually doing X' in productive cases: by definition any description of something qua productive is a description of it involving something other than the action itself.

    Absolutely, but then you do have a distinction between a divine action that is exclusively operative within God himself, and a divine action that has an impact outside of God in some kind of product. As he writes:

    “… if certain actions are proper to God which do not pass into something made but remain in Him, power is not attributed to Him in their regard, except according to our manner of understanding, and not according to reality. Such actions are understanding and willing. Properly speaking, therefore, God’s power does not regard such actions, but only effects. Consequently, intellect and will are in God, not as powers, but only as actions.” (SCG 2.10.1).

    As he says, “certain actions are proper to God which do not pass into something made but remain in him”, and “[s]uch actions are understanding and willing”. Those actions are distinguished from other actions that do “pass into something made”. Either this distinction is true, or illusory. If it is true, then there is a genuine distinction between divine actions, and if it is illusory, then Aquinas’ entire point at SCG 2.10.1 is pointless.

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  114. But he distinguishes at ST 1.19.3 between divine actions that are necessary in an absolute sense and other divine actions that are necessary in a relative sense (i.e. the action itself is originally contingent, but becomes necessary by supposition).

    I don't see any such distinction there; he simply distinguishes two different ways things can be called necessary.

    Also, if power is “not properly prior to any divine action at all”, then there is simply no such thing as divine power at all, except in our limited manner of understanding, which we then project upon the divine reality.

    Divine action is prior to any effects with respect to which it is principle, and therefore is truly called divine power.

    If it is true, then there is a genuine distinction between divine actions, and if it is illusory, then Aquinas’ entire point at SCG 2.10.1 is pointless.

    But SCG 2.10.2 quite clearly rejects the interpretation you are putting on 2.10.1. Far from being pointless, SCG 2.10.1 would have exactly the point I previously noted.

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  115. @Brandon:

    I don't see any such distinction there; he simply distinguishes two different ways things can be called necessary.

    Yes, but there is an important distinction between those two kinds of necessity. One is absolutely necessary in the sense that there is no possible way for it not to occur, and the other is relatively necessary in the sense that prior to its occurrence, it may have not occurred, but after its occurrence, there is no changing it. You can’t reduce the important difference between them to one of semantics with no correspondence to anything in reality. Otherwise, you jeopardize Aquinas’ reconciliation of divine freedom and divine necessity by rooting the solution to our language, and not to reality.

    Divine action is prior to any effects with respect to which it is principle, and therefore is truly called divine power.

    But, again, if you collapse divine power and divine action into one another, as Aquinas sometimes intends, then the ultimate conclusion is that they are coextensive with the divine essence, which means that different divine actions would require different divine essences. In other words, a God that acts to create would have a different essence from a God that does not act to create, because one divine essence would be identical with various divine actions plus the act of creation, and another divine essence would be identical to various divine actions minus the act of creation. It is only if the act of creation is distinct from the divine essence that God can remain God irrespective of whether he creates or not, which is precisely the role that divine power is supposed to play.

    But SCG 2.10.2 quite clearly rejects the interpretation you are putting on 2.10.1. Far from being pointless, SCG 2.10.1 would have exactly the point I previously noted.

    But that ignores the distinction that Aquinas is drawing between (a) divine actions that remain in God and do not pass into something made (e.g. acts of intellect and will), versus (b) divine actions that do not remain in God and do pass into something made (e.g. acts of creation). Surely, (a) is not identical to (b), because they mutually exclude each other. To identify them is to endorse a logical contradiction. Furthermore, he clearly says that power can only be properly attributed to (b), and cannot be attributed to (a), except as a projection of our limited understanding upon the divine reality.

    So, on the one hand, he writes that “if certain actions are proper to God which do not pass into something made but remain in Him [note: divine action as (a)], power is not attributed to Him in their regard, except according to our manner of understanding, and not according to reality. Such actions are understanding and willing”. On the other hand, “power is in truth attributed to God in relation to things made [note: divine action as (b)]”.

    Furthermore, the conclusion at SCG 2.10.2 says that “producing things” is “in God” and “in his very being, which is one and the same”. In other words, the act of creation is identical to the divine essence. In that case, how can God possibly not create the universe? And that would mean that God’s choice to create the universe is not free at all, but rather is necessary due to his essence. That is the consequence of denying a distinction between the divine power to create the universe and acting to create the universe. They collapse into one another such that God must create the universe as a necessary manifestation of his essence.

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  116. The New Atheists and their materialist/mechanistic friends are incapable of taking the metaphysical claims in Aristotelian-Thomistic arguments seriously, firstly because they don't trust metaphysics as a valid source of knowledge, and secondly because they are (for the most part) utterly incapable of grasping A-T metaphysics - it's just too alien to their mind-set. ID is a bridge that argues for a mentalistic explanation of reality on purely scientific grounds. Only when New Atheists have crossed that bridge will they be able to even consider metaphysical arguments.

    Among the New Atheists, only Dennett is worth taking seriously as an intellectual and philosopher. The rest are philosophasters.

    If Ladyman and Ross are right ("Every Thing Must Go," "Scientific Metaphysics"), then materialism itself is out of touch with 20th-century science. It should be rejected even by those who think that scientific metaphysics is all the metaphysics that it makes sense to do.

    The harder case would be someone who thinks that scientific metaphysics is all the metaphysics that there is to do, and that there's nothing other than that which can put us in touch with objective reality.

    As for contemporary uses of Aristotle, there's a lot of neo-Aristotelianism in virtue ethics and some in philosophy of biology. While that use of Aristotle isn't mediated by Aquinas and the other Scholastics, it's another point at which bridges could be built if one were so inclined.

    But I don't think that ID is such a bridge because it takes for granted a mechanistic picture of nature, and we have very good reasons to think that the mechanistic picture of nature is false. In the absence of a mechanistic picture of nature, I don't see how ID can get off the ground.

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  117. dguller,

    I don't see the relevance about the kind of necessity; it doesn't establish different kinds of action. This is not equivalent to claiming that there is "no correspondence to anything in reality".

    But, again, if you collapse divine power and divine action into one another, as Aquinas sometimes intends, then the ultimate conclusion is that they are coextensive with the divine essence, which means that different divine actions would require different divine essences.

    Setting aside the fact that it's incorrect to say one collapses into the other when the account clearly requires that they be modally distinct terms, there is nothing that establishes different divine actions. Your reasoning,

    In other words, a God that acts to create would have a different essence from a God that does not act to create, because one divine essence would be identical with various divine actions plus the act of creation, and another divine essence would be identical to various divine actions minus the act of creation.

    is not accurate, for the reason I already gave. 'Act of creation' does not merely refer to divine action; it refers also to the product of the action. It cannot be directly used to draw any conclusion about the action itself. This is the point I previously noted: when we are talking about an action qua productive, we are talking about it in terms of something that is not the action itself. To talk about the 'act of creation' is to talk about divine action not in terms of what the divine action itself is, but simply to identify it as a principle of what is created.

    But that ignores the distinction that Aquinas is drawing between (a) divine actions that remain in God and do not pass into something made (e.g. acts of intellect and will), versus (b) divine actions that do not remain in God and do pass into something made (e.g. acts of creation).

    It does not; SCG 2.10.2 gives the sense in which the distinction is being drawn and it is explicitly not in terms of the action itself, but in terms of whether we are considering it in light of its real effects or not.

    Furthermore, the conclusion at SCG 2.10.2 says that “producing things” is “in God” and “in his very being, which is one and the same”. In other words, the act of creation is identical to the divine essence.

    Of course it's in God, for exactly the reason I pointed out before that Aquinas was not saying that any divine actions are outside of God; the act of creation is the divine action in God, just considered in terms of something different from the action, namely, the created world.

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  118. continuing;

    In other words, the act of creation is identical to the divine essence. In that case, how can God possibly not create the universe?

    Because there is nothing about the universe that makes it necessary, and whether we talk about the divine action being the act of creation or not depends entirely on whether the universe is its effect.

    That is the consequence of denying a distinction between the divine power to create the universe and acting to create the universe. They collapse into one another such that God must create the universe as a necessary manifestation of his essence.

    This does not follow, first, because there is an intensional distinction between 'divine power' and 'divine action' that makes this inference impossible, and second because we can only say 'God must create' if the effects of divine action were already known to be necessary, because 'create' is applied to divine action solely in light of the fact that it has the effect of the created world.

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  119. @Vincent
    I'm afraid the arguments are not as demonstrative as you assume - which is why we need cumulative and converging arguments for God's existence, as I hope to explain in my forthcoming post.

    The standard arguments for God's existence in A-T are demonstrative because they necessarily follow from the premises.

    The question is then, are the premises correct. That is an entirely different question.

    The New Atheists and their materialist/mechanistic friends are incapable of taking the metaphysical claims in Aristotelian-Thomistic arguments seriously, firstly because they don't trust metaphysics as a valid source of knowledge, and secondly because they are (for the most part) utterly incapable of grasping A-T metaphysics - it's just too alien to their mind-set. ID is a bridge that argues for a mentalistic explanation of reality on purely scientific grounds. Only when New Atheists have crossed that bridge will they be able to even consider metaphysical arguments.

    You mean the same New Atheists who call ID "pseudo-science" or "Creationism Lite"?

    I fail to see how people who reject that ID even qualifies as "science" will find it a "bridge" of any kind.

    But, if they do reject metaphysics as a source of knowledge, it is pretty simple to demonstrate the futility of any science including their own.

    Sure they may not listen, but that's a different problem.

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  120. Dylan: Suppose the scientist restores the context/ "resets time" n times. […] will the murderer kill the victim every time?

    Maybe. That depends on a lot things about the world which we just don’t know. (And perhaps ignoring some of the things we do know — for example, if our current understanding of quantum mechanics is correct, it would be impossible to record every physical detail of any event, and thus impossible ever to repeat it exactly.) But many murders go on to commit murder again — why would a murderer in exactly the same situation, with (presumably) exactly the same thoughts, etc., as the first time, not re-commit the murder just as freely as he did the first time? In other words, even if this experiment were possible, and even if the murderer did do the same thing each time, there is not much of interest that we can conclude about the nature of free will.

    2. Is it the case that a human's free will is a flaw? From what I understand, for Aquinas, the will is free only because the human intellect is imperfect.

    The other way around, really: insofar as our intellects are not perfect, our wills cannot operate with perfect freedom. Human will is free somewhat in the manner that a functioning compass needle is “free” — if something is wrong with the compass, then the needle will not move freely; but if it does move freely, then it will always point north. That is why the truth will set you free, even though there is only one truth and many errors. In your example, Y’s will is more free than X’s because it is unhampered by a defective intellect, and thus aims true.

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  121. Vincent Torley: I'm afraid the arguments are not as demonstrative as you assume

    As Andrew notes, the arguments are demonstrative, and indeed are sound. That does not mean that any particular individual will be necessarily convinced by any particular presentation (not even any intelligent and intellectually honest person). Whether “cumulative” arguments are helpful as a practical apologetic matter is a very different question; and even then, as repeatedly mentioned, whatever additional arguments are brought in must be free of error (so issues like mechanistic assumptions are a big deal).

    I would also add that filling in endless detail does not make an argument more demonstrative, nor necessarily any more understandable or persuasive. Russell and Whitehead put 600 pages’ worth of detail into proving that 1+1=2, but this was not because they weren’t sure, or in order to convince any “sceptics”. Anyone who is able to follow the proof in the Principia Mathematica is already well aware that 1+1=2, and anyone who seriously does not know that is not going to be able to follow the proof. It’s not that the details are wrong, or not valuable for other reasons, but they just do not make the original claim clearer.


    The New Atheists and their materialist/mechanistic friends are incapable of taking the metaphysical claims in Aristotelian-Thomistic arguments seriously

    They’re incapable of taking much seriously. Frankly, I don’t understand this recent fad of trying to tackle atheism as though it were the biggest problem in the world today. It's a small percentage of the population; a far more serious issue is people who are religious — or open to religion or theism in various degrees — who have no understanding of its serious intellectual foundation. Most people are already in a position that is as about as far as ID could take them. What they really need instead is the kind of work Feser is doing.


    Greg: It would also be important to distinguish ID and fine tuning; Flew and Smart both took fine tuning seriously

    I’m assuming you mean fine-tuning in a cosmological sense, which is just a particular application of reasoning to intelligent design.

    but were probably more impressed by A-T metaphysics than with the position that evolution is some sort of systematically flawed theory.

    And even though ID is frequently portrayed by detractors and [supposed] supporters alike as somehow showing that evolution “doesn’t work”, it’s surely the one thing ID cannot do. In this context, I’d say that the whole point of ID is to draw a conclusion from evolutionary biology — if the premise of evolution is invalid, then the whole ID argument itself fails.

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  122. Mr. Green, thanks for your reply.

    Your response to my second question suggests that some wills are more free than others, owing to the variances (among distinct persons) in the degree of receptiveness to the truth. Yet, at least partially, aren't such variances attributable to "coercions" imposed on a person (and by extension, his own will) which are beyond his control (e.g., his mental aptitude, quality of his upbringing, etc.)? That is, I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that our imperfect (and thus merely partially free) wills are determined by / attributable to external circumstances/causes. Thus, in what sense are our wills truly, meaningfully free, absent truth/grace? Further, would we not have to concede that, prior to the Incarnation, man did not, by necessity, have a (truly) free will? Or, more generally, man (left to his own nature) does not have a (truly) free will?

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  123. Mr. Green,

    Further, what your response suggests is that determinism vs free will is, in fact, a false dichotomy, at least as popularly conceived. Really, when the typical atheist determinist argues that our (perceived) ability to choose between two or more viable options is merely an illusion, the truth or falsity of this proposition has, in fact, no bearing on Aquinas' conception of free will. That is, even if it were just a matter of being knowledgeable of all the variables which collectively (of which there'd of course be an enormous quantity) determine our decision (so the determinist believes), this would not constitute an objection to Aquinas.

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  124. Philosophaster was satire directed at Jesuits and Scholasticism!

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  125. Further, what your response suggests is that determinism vs free will is, in fact, a false dichotomy, at least as popularly conceived. Really, when the typical atheist determinist argues that our (perceived) ability to choose between two or more viable options is merely an illusion, the truth or falsity of this proposition has, in fact, no bearing on Aquinas' conception of free will. That is, even if it were just a matter of being knowledgeable of all the variables which collectively (of which there'd of course be an enormous quantity) determine our decision (so the determinist believes), this would not constitute an objection to Aquinas.

    It might also be pointed out that determinism -- the idea that one's choices are caused by the entire preceding state of affairs leading up to those choices -- has no basis in contemporary physics or philosophy of science. The determinist relies on a 17th-century picture of law and of causation -- a picture that we have very good reasons to reject.

    In other words, even someone who thinks that a scientific metaphysics is all the metaphysics that there is should still not be a determinist!

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  126. I think one of the fundamental points of Classical Theism is that, as ontotheology, it is explicitly bound in with all other metaphysical issues in a way that the more modern take on Philosophy of Religion typified by Craig and Plantinga is not. After all a science which aims at the Ground of all Reality will indirectly have all of Reality as its field too. Not that I imply that Craig and co do not frequently deal with questions of the highest metaphysical import and in a manner which is wholly admirable; it’s just that their work represents a subtle metaphysical shift from the pursuit of the science of Being as Being to an epistemic project for justifying the rationality of a religious belief system.

    It is perhaps wrong to give the impression that the Deity is a priori a matter of religious questions, that there is such a thing as revelatory theology. God is a Necessary condition for most religions though not a sufficient one. Of course this in no way implies that religious representatives ought not to seek to justify their claims on philosophical grounds, it is just that the question of God is 'secular' in as much as it in itself need single no allegiance to a creed. (On an irrelevant aside: I’ve always been tempted to write a satirical short story in which it turns out the ‘true religion’ is an obscure branch of Hinduism as compatible with Classical Metaphysics as Catholicism is – something which would highlight the intense laziness and parochial ignorance of much of secular society).

    On a more critical note I think that for all the immense good it did in reviving Classical Metaphysics and Philosophy of Nature the Neo-Scholastic movement was inherently self-limiting in the field of Natural Theology. Because of the exclusive focus on Thomas certain of that individual's casual asides on issues he devoted little time to were elevated to the status of philosophical and even theological dogmas. From thence on all major scholarship on the Ontological Argument and what came to be called the Kalam Cosmological Argument would occur outside Catholic circles and even Classical Metaphysics its self: even arguments the Thomists found congenial, such as the Proof from Eternal Truths, were given short shrift in favour of what very soon came to be yet another Manualist rehash of the Five Ways. Indeed a certain percentage of Thomists made somewhat of a cottage industry of churning out elaborate and increasingly hysterical attacks on the Ontological Argument.

    Keeping with the satirical vein I’m also tempted to write a short article entitled ‘Two Dogmas of Neo-Scholasticism’ in which I would endeavour to demonstrate that Thomas’ criticisms of the Ontological Argument and the twenty-second Thomistic Thesis stem from a rigid and untenable Analytic/Synthetic Distinction. The pun alone probably merits sometime in Purgatory however.

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  127. @Brandon:

    I don't see the relevance about the kind of necessity; it doesn't establish different kinds of action. This is not equivalent to claiming that there is "no correspondence to anything in reality".

    I think that it does. Aquinas distinguishes between divine actions that are necessary absolutely, and other divine actions that are originally contingent in the sense that they did not necessarily have to be done, but once they are done, subsequently become necessary by supposition. These are mutually exclusive kinds of divine actions, such that a divine action cannot simultaneously be necessary and contingent, and thus there must be different kinds of divine actions. If there is only one kind of divine action, then either it must be necessary or contingent, but it cannot be both. If it is necessary, then the act of creation is necessary, which contradicts Christian theology. If it is contingent, then it is possible that God would not have chosen to act to understand anything, which is impossible, given the divine nature and simplicity. So, again, there must (at least) by two kinds of mutually exclusive divine actions.

    Setting aside the fact that it's incorrect to say one collapses into the other when the account clearly requires that they be modally distinct terms, there is nothing that establishes different divine actions.

    Any distinction between them is solely in our minds. In reality, they are all one and the same underlying divine reality, which is precisely why Aquinas is able to argue transitively from one divine attribute to another, i.e. if the divine intellect is identical to the divine essence, and the divine will is identical to the divine essence, then the divine intellect is identical to the divine will. That is what I mean when I say that they “collapse into one another”.

    'Act of creation' does not merely refer to divine action; it refers also to the product of the action. It cannot be directly used to draw any conclusion about the action itself. This is the point I previously noted: when we are talking about an action qua productive, we are talking about it in terms of something that is not the action itself. To talk about the 'act of creation' is to talk about divine action not in terms of what the divine action itself is, but simply to identify it as a principle of what is created.

    Okay. So, let’s clarify matters. Act of creation involves two components: (a) the divine action A, and (b) the effect (or product) of the divine action E. A is distinct from E, even though they are united in a single act of creation. The question is whether A or E is identical to the divine power P. E cannot be identical to P, because E is outside of God, and thus outside of P, which is identical to the divine essence. And it is only in relation to E that A can be called a power at all, because A is prior to E. But what about A? Is A identical to P? Well, if A is identical to P, then A is identical to the divine essence, and thus is an absolutely necessary divine action. After all, if anything is identical to the divine essence, then it is absolutely necessary, and not necessary by supposition. However, since it is impossible for A to occur without E also occurring, it would follow that E is an absolutely necessary consequence of the divine essence, which means that the act of creation, i.e. both A and E, are absolutely necessary, which compromises God’s freedom of will.

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  128. Because there is nothing about the universe that makes it necessary, and whether we talk about the divine action being the act of creation or not depends entirely on whether the universe is its effect.

    But remember that A is identical to the divine essence, and thus cannot possibly be absent from reality. And if A is present, then E necessarily follows, which means that the universe is necessary as an inevitable consequence of the divine essence. After all, E exists, because creation exists. E exists iff A exists, and thus A exists. But A is identical to P, which means that A is identical to the divine essence. And anything that is identical to the divine essence is necessary absolutely. Therefore, A is necessary absolutely, and since if A exists, then E exists, then E is necessary absolutely, as well, because there is no possible way for E not to exist, if A must exist, as well.

    This does not follow, first, because there is an intensional distinction between 'divine power' and 'divine action' that makes this inference impossible,

    But the “intensional distinction” between them does not stop Aquinas from using them to infer in a transitive fashion in numerous occasions. In other words, he freely infers that if divine power is X and divine action is X, then divine power is divine action. I’m just making the exact same form of inference.

    and second because we can only say 'God must create' if the effects of divine action were already known to be necessary, because 'create' is applied to divine action solely in light of the fact that it has the effect of the created world.

    But the effects of divine action are known to be necessary, because there is no distinction between divine actions, according to you, which means that there are not divine actions that are necessary and other divine actions that are contingent. They are all either necessary or contingent. If they are necessary, then creation is necessary. If they are contingent, then some divine attributes might not be actualized. To avoid this dilemma, there must be a distinction between divine actions.

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  129. On necessity, establishing that there are different ways actions can be considered necessary is not equivalent to say that the actions themselves are different.

    Any distinction between them is solely in our minds.

    This is not right, though. Since the distinction is based on something real, namely the effect, it is not solely in the mind, even though the action in itself is not differentiated by it.

    Act of creation involves two components: (a) the divine action A, and (b) the effect (or product) of the divine action E. A is distinct from E, even though they are united in a single act of creation.

    Divine actions don't have components. The concept 'act of creation', which we use to describe divine action in light of its effects, includes both A and E, which are necessarily different.

    The question is whether A or E is identical to the divine power P. E cannot be identical to P, because E is outside of God, and thus outside of P, which is identical to the divine essence. And it is only in relation to E that A can be called a power at all, because A is prior to E. But what about A? Is A identical to P? Well, if A is identical to P, then A is identical to the divine essence, and thus is an absolutely necessary divine action.

    While right about E, this argument commits a modal fallacy in discussing A and P. P is extensionally A, because P just is A when A is reached by considering E as precisely as effect. But 'A' and 'A when A is reached by considering E as effect' are intensionally or modally distinct. Your inference drops the intensional distinction and thus is invalid. The same is true of your next claim, "if anything is identical to the divine essence, then it is absolutely necessary, and not necessary by supposition." But this is only true if we can abstract from intensional and modal relations, which we can't do, because the relation between A and P is an intensional one.

    But remember that A is identical to the divine essence, and thus cannot possibly be absent from reality. And if A is present, then E necessarily follows, which means that the universe is necessary as an inevitable consequence of the divine essence.

    The only way we could know this is if we started with A and deduced E from it (as you do). But Aquinas's position, and classical theism in general, entails that we only go in the reverse order; we do not have the kind of direct understanding of the nature of divine action that would make an inference in the opposite direction even possible. On the basis of E we know A must exist so as to be able to cause it, i.e., so as to be P; given the relation between E and A we know certain negative facts about A, like the fact that it must be purely actual, unlike actions we typically meet with. We could only possibly get necessity into the picture by deducing it from E; there is no possible way to deduce it from A without divine revelation. That would violate the principle of remotion. Even if we set aside the modal fallacy, your argument is presupposing things that are impossible on Aquinas's principles; it does not identify a problem for Aquinas himself.

    Incidentally, it's worth reminding ourselves that Aquinas discusses the issue explicitly in his discussion of divine names, ST 1.13.7.

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  130. Vincent,

    I don't get it.

    At 3:53 of the vimeo video, Dr. Feser clearly stated that he would be presenting a "partial draft".

    And above you say:

    I honestly thought at the time that a one-hour talk in front of a friendly audience would give you ample time to present your argument fully, and in a logically rigorous fashion, at its very best.

    Under what circumstances might a person be given to think that "partial draft" is equivalent to 'argument fully presented in a logically rigorous fashion'?

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  131. Glenn,

    I don't remember the passage you quoted. But even so, the argument contained huge logical leaps, as my post on Uncommon Descent pointed out. If I were giving a talk, even to a lay audience, the very first thing I would want to make sure of would be the soundness of the argument I was presenting. Starting with one thing and arguing that it must have a First Cause does not warrant the assertion, made later in the argument, that the First Cause is the cause of things. That's an elementary fallacy.

    Andrew and Mr. Green,

    I'm sure you both sincerely believe the arguments you defend are metaphysically certain, but I will show in my forthcoming post that you are mistaken. Judge for yourselves.

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  132. Vincent,

    1. The passage I quoted from can be found at 3:53 of the video for which you provided a link.

    2. A "draft" is a plan, sketch, outline, etc. By definition, a draft is skimpy on details.

    3. Since a "draft" is skimpy on details, one can easily imagine what a "partial draft" must be like.

    4. What is the name of that logical fallacy which, more or less, is defined as: Proceeding in a manner which differs from the manner a potential critic might employ?

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  133. @Vincent Torley:

    "Starting with one thing and arguing that it must have a First Cause does not warrant the assertion, made later in the argument, that the First Cause is the cause of things. That's an elementary fallacy."

    Indeed it is. And anyone claiming familiarity with Ed's arguments should be well aware that he knows it's a fallacy and doesn't commit it.

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  134. Mr. Green,

    Of course, if the meaning of imagining vs. conceiving, or per se vs. per accidens is not clear, then surely there is no point going further with any criticisms or discussion, because if you have a confused understanding of what’s being discussed, anything you try to say about it will also be confused.

    If the difference between imagining and conceiving is confused at the source, I'm merely an observer.

    You've made this assertion: "There are things that can be conceived but not imagined, but nothing that can be imagined yet not conceived."

    I pointed you to TLC, p105. You read this and still concluded nothing can be imagined yet not conceived.

    The context of p105 is as follows. Feser has explained the "principle of causality." He then addresses Hume's attack on that principle. Hume would claim we can easily "conceive" of a ball appearing on a table out of nowhere. Feser claims Hume is wrong. We cannot conceive of such a thing. We can only imagine the ball appearing "poof" out of nowhere. We can "form a mental image" of it happening, but that is not the same as to conceive of it -- to intellectually grasp it. In order to intellectually grasp it, that is, to conceive it, we always look for a cause. We will not intellectually accept a thing without that cause.

    Clearly Feser's whole point is that some things -- like balls appearing out of nowhere -- may be imagined yet not conceived. It's the crux of this line of reasoning against Hume. This reasoning renders your claim false according to Feser. Perhaps you're a Humean?

    "I dare say you do grasp it "

    You dropped the word "intellectually." Is the intellect so trivial a qualifier that it can be casually dropped on demand? I think not. Maybe this helps explain our difference.


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  135. Don Jindra: If the difference between imagining and conceiving is confused at the source, I'm merely an observer.

    Except nobody else seems to have been confused by it.

    Clearly Feser's whole point is that some things -- like balls appearing out of nowhere -- may be imagined yet not conceived.

    The point is that imagining a ball appearing “out of nowhere” is not to imagine it appearing “uncaused”. “Uncaused” is not a visual or sensory experience, so it cannot actually be imagined at all — as an abstract concept, our only chance would be to conceive of it happening uncaused (which as Feser points out, isn’t possible either).

    But that was a side road. Even putting aside the issue of conceiving vs. imagining, we still haven’t seen by what steps you arrived at the conclusion that Feser equated “conceiving” with “something your intellect can easily grasp”. Illustrations about magical bowling balls don’t provide any reason to draw such a conclusion, so I’m still wondering where you got that idea from…?

    You dropped the word "intellectually." Is the intellect so trivial a qualifier that it can be casually dropped on demand?

    Not trivial, just obvious, since that’s the context we’ve been discussing for the past several posts. And I expect that you didn’t interpret it as referring to physically grasping with your hand.

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  136. Mr. Green,

    To borrow from Churchill, ours are two Great Worldviews separated by a common language.

    "as an abstract concept, our only chance would be to conceive of it happening uncaused (which as Feser points out, isn’t possible either)."

    Feser begins with the assumption that conceiving an uncaused event isn't possible. He doesn't point it out. Yes, I agree he claims something conceived cannot be conceived uncaused. That's what I've been saying from the start. So we now appear to agree on at least that much. Feser used conceiving in a narrow way, as something that demands cause prior to our conceiving of it at all.

    Our dispute, then, hinges on what Feser means by imagining. Clearly conceiving and imagining cannot be the same. He begins by asserting Hume did not understand the terms were different. Then he provides an example he claims shows they are different: We can conceive of a chiliagon but we cannot imaging it. I point to this sentence:

    "One problem with it [Hume's attack] is that it assumes quite falsely that to imagine something -- to form a certain mental image -- is the same as to conceive it, in the sense of forming a coherent intellectual idea of it."

    He follows with,

    "You can form no clear mental image of a chiliagon... Still, your intellect can easily grasp the concept of a chiliagon."

    And then,

    "Like many empiricists, Hume conflates the intellect and the imagination..."

    I think it's abundantly clear that Feser associates "imagine" with forming a mental image of a thing, and that forming that image is not dependent upon the intellect; whereas to "conceive" depends upon the intellect and that to use the word "conceive" outside the confines of the intellect is to misuse the word.

    Feser obviously equates “conceiving” with “something your intellect can easily grasp.” Those are the very words and the meaning of the second passage I quoted above. No "steps" are required for me to arrive at that interpretation. That's simply his working definition. You need to ask him, not me, the steps he used to arrive at his definition.

    But you read those same words and claim:

    "The point is that imagining a ball appearing 'out of nowhere' is not to imagine it appearing 'uncaused'. 'Uncaused' is not a visual or sensory experience, so it cannot actually be imagined at all"

    No doubt "uncaused" is not sensual, like "didn't see" is not sensual. That's trivially true. Hume would certainly not argue that point. Feser cannot counter Hume by agreeing with him.

    The issue has to do with necessity, not sensation. But you don't want to get into metaphysics with me so I'll end it here.

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  137. "Feser cannot counter Hume by agreeing with him."

    Minor nitpick, but author A can agree with author B's Premise X, but argue/show that Premise X does not imply or lead to author B's conclusion.

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  138. Mr. Green,

    Don't feed the trolls.

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  139. Have found a way to listen to Feser's "First Way" TCA video by putting the audio on a USB stick to play while driving.

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  140. Don Jindra: Feser used conceiving in a narrow way, as something that demands cause prior to our conceiving of it at all.

    Well, no, this isn’t some special “narrow” sense that “demands” causality — it only ends up that we cannot conceive of such a thing because it is logically impossible, and of course we cannot conceive what is logically impossible. But we’re getting off-topic again.

    [Feser] follows with, "You can form no clear mental image of a chiliagon... Still, your intellect can easily grasp the concept of a chiliagon.” […]
    Feser obviously equates “conceiving” with “something your intellect can easily grasp.” Those are the very words and the meaning of the second passage I quoted above.


    Not so. The meaning of the very words “Your intellect can easily grasp the concept of a chiliagon” is quite obviously not “Conceiving is equated with something your intellect can easily grasp.” The very words required to mean exactly that would be “Conceiving is equated with something your intellect can easily grasp.” Since Feser used different words from the claim you are making obviously some steps are required to get from what he claimed to what you are claiming. You may perhaps think that what Feser literally said must necessarily entail your interpretation, but that is exactly what I am asking you to explain.
    That the concept Feser refers to happens to be easy to grasp does not mean that all concepts must be easy to grasp (obviously many concepts are not easy at all!); and even if all of X were the same way it does not follow that that is the definition X. (For example: From “Sam has two legs” it does not follow that all humans have two legs. Even less does it follow that humans are defined as things with two legs, for there are other things that have two legs — such as birds or pairs of trousers — that are not human.) So there must be other steps to get from Feser’s actual words on the page to your interpretation.

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  141. Mr. Green,

    "it only ends up that we cannot conceive of such a thing because it is logically impossible, and of course we cannot conceive what is logically impossible."

    We do not define or use words according to rules of logic.

    "The meaning of the very words 'Your intellect can easily grasp the concept of a chiliagon' is quite obviously not 'Conceiving is equated with something your intellect can easily grasp.' The very words required to mean exactly that would be 'Conceiving is equated with something your intellect can easily grasp.'"

    There are many ways to define words. One way is to distinguish a word from what it is not. Sometimes this is a better way. Plato's Socrates does it. It's clear to me that this is what Feser is doing.

    I think it's obvious, and requires no steps, to understand Feser is using the two words in a way that makes these sentences true:

    1) Conceiving something requires our intellect to grasp it first or simultaneously.

    2) Conceiving something requires no mental image.

    3) Imagining something requires us to form a mental image of it.

    4) We can conceive of some things we cannot form a mental image of. (variation of #2)

    Your original complaint to me was that nothing can be imagined yet not conceived. This would make "imagine" a subset of "conceive." I see nothing in Feser's words that would make me believe he uses the terms in this way. IOW, I see nothing that would lead me to believe he thought the following sentence is true:

    5) Imagining something requires our intellect to grasp it first or simultaneously.

    You tell me Feser could have easily stated: 'Conceiving is equated with something your intellect can easily grasp.' I agree he could have. But he could have also easily made other declarative sentences such as, 'Imagining is a subset of conceiving' or 'Nothing can be imagined yet not conceived' or 'We cannot imagine or conceive of things we cannot intellectually grasp.' So if you want my steps to reach my conclusion, I'll ask for the same. By what steps do you conclude Feser believes imagining is a subset of conceiving?

    I think a trip to the movies will confirm we can indeed imagine what we cannot conceive. But what does Feser think?

    He does mention Anscombe's attempted rebuttal of Hume. We are told we cannot imagine a bowling ball appear without looking for a cause. All this really says is that we look for cause after the fact, after the image is presented to us. I wouldn't dispute that. I doubt Hume would either. We do look for cause and when we cannot find one we're tempted to find a supernatural one -- anything will do better than nothing. But this is not the same thing as grasping something intellectually prior to or simultaneously with imagining it (or ever). It's a human need to turn what we imagine into something we can also intellectually grasp. If we fail to do that -- at the movies for example -- we throw up our hands and say that would never happen. We give bad reviews. Nevertheless, we did form a mental image of it. Our eyes are not blind to what we cannot intellectually grasp. This should be obvious. Even a fish can see.

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  142. Troll Logic Alert

    "Your original complaint to me was that nothing can be imagined yet not conceived. This would make 'imagine' a subset of 'conceive.'"

    No more than nothing can be red without being extended makes "red" a shape.

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  143. Scott,

    "No more than nothing can be red without being extended makes "red" a shape."

    Do you have evidence Feser believes imagine and conceive are as different as color and shape? If he does, it would make some of the sentences he's written using both words more or less interchangeably truly bizarre -- Alice in Wonderland stuff. So until you provide that evidence I'll count your comment as inapplicable.

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  144. Apparent evidence that Dr. Feser might not hold to the interesting belief that 'mental imagines' are a subset of 'concepts':

    "Sensations and mental images are also subjective or private, directly knowable only to the person having them, while concepts are public and objective, equally accessible in principle to anyone." -- Aristotle and Frege on thought

    Since mental images are 'private or subjective', and concepts are 'public and objective', and since 'private' is not a subset of 'public', and 'subjective' is not a subset of 'objective', it would seem to follow that 'mental images' are not a subset of 'concepts'.

    Additionally, since there is ample reason to believe that 'private or subjective' and 'public and objective' belong to different genera, and ample reason to believe that 'color' and 'shape' also belong to different genera, it would seem to follow that there is ample reason to believe that there exists a relevant sense in which, by which or because of which the former pair differ as much as do the latter pair.

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  145. (That, of course, addresses the 'noun' aspect of the matter.)

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  146. Glenn,

    I didn't say Feser claims imagining is a subset of conceptualizing. I think it's obvious he does not. I think it's obvious he thinks the two terms overlap to a degree. My dispute is with Mr. Green and what he says about the two terms which I assume he thinks he got from Feser. I say he did not get it from Feser.

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  147. I responded to the 'noun' version of your critique of Scott's on-point observation.

    But that you act as if I had done something else is: a) not really unexpected; b) actually par for the course; and, c) just another reason why Anonymous, e.g., tirelessly -- which isn't to say unaggravatedly -- reminds people not to respond to trolls.

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  148. Don Jindra: It's clear to me that this is what Feser is doing.

    Well, no.

    Your original complaint to me was that nothing can be imagined yet not conceived. This would make "imagine" a subset of "conceive.”

    Well, no. And my original complaint was that you cited a sentence from Feser that did not say what you claimed it did.

    You tell me Feser could have easily stated: 'Conceiving is equated with something your intellect can easily grasp.' I agree he could have.

    Of course he could have stated that… if he had meant it. But he didn’t mean it, so he didn’t state it.

    So if you want my steps to reach my conclusion, I'll ask for the same. By what steps do you conclude Feser believes imagining is a subset of conceiving?

    He doesn’t. But again, the issue is how you justified your claim in the first place. As I have noted multiple times, I’m not trying to resolve the philosophical question. I’m giving you a chance to defend your position. You see, you got Feser wrong, and instead of just calling you names, I wanted to give you a chance to defend your conclusion. Or, if it turned out that you couldn’t, because you made a mistake, to give you the opportunity to gracefully admit your error. But you cannot defend your jump from Feser’s words (which you quoted) to your very different words, nor have you had the fortitude to say, hey, yes, maybe I made a mistake there.

    I think a trip to the movies will confirm we can indeed imagine what we cannot conceive.

    Well, no.

    We do look for cause and when we cannot find one we're tempted to find a supernatural one -- anything will do better than nothing.

    Well, no.

    If we fail to do that -- at the movies for example -- we throw up our hands and say that would never happen. We give bad reviews.

    Well, no.

    Even a fish can see.

    Well, yes! But conceiving does not require the intellect’s grasping something first; it just is the intellect’s grasping it. And fish do not have intellects. But you’re going off-topic again. In fact, it seems that the more evident it becomes that you cannot justify your claim given the quotation from Feser, the more you have resorted to debating the philosophical question which we were not supposed to be discussing in this thread. I am forced to conclude what many had no doubt suspected all along: that you either are not capable of understanding the subject matter, or are not capable of admitting it. It’s no sin to be stumped by a topic — and A-T metaphysics is not a trivial subject — but if you cannot acknowledge when you get something wrong, you will never make any progress in understanding it. And this is why people object to your posts — not because you disagree, or because you have a beef with Feser’s politics, or anything else, but only because when you don’t understand what is being said, you jump to some conclusion and won’t budge. That makes constructive conversation impossible. You effectively wall yourself off from meaningful discussion, and then act as though it’s some kind of conspiracy against you. As long as you’re not willing first to make sure that you understand people on their own terms (regardless of whether those terms turn out to be right or wrong), then there is no point continuing.

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  149. Scott: Troll Logic Alert

    “Troll-logic” is a good term, I shall have to adopt it. It identifies the effect without worrying about whether the source technically qualifies as an actual troublemaker of the species in question.


    Anonymous: Mr. Green, Don't feed the trolls.

    I suspect that in this particular case, it isn’t really feeding, but you’re right insofar as the effort is unproductive. However, I had a specific goal in this case: to pick a very simple case (the meaning of a cited sentence, apart from its philosophical import) and see whether DJ could maintain a reasoned discussion when challenged on it. Having established the answer in the negative, this thread can stand as an example to future posters who need a guide to the local flora and fauna.

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  150. This thread has ballooned up quite a bit. I didn’t know it was still active.

    Imagining versus conceiving. Isn’t this a rather commonplace distinction nowadays? Isn’t it the same as the distinction between the imagistic part of a theory and its formalism?

    “I think a trip to the movies will confirm we can indeed imagine what we cannot conceive.” DJ

    Can you give an example, perhaps from the movies, of something that can be imagined but not conceived?

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  151. Imagining versus conceiving. Isn’t this a rather commonplace distinction nowadays? Isn’t it the same as the distinction between the imagistic part of a theory and its formalism?

    "Imagistic"? Is that a word? Imaginary is a word. It refers to an abstract concept that can also be thought of as "making stuff up".

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  152. @Alan

    According to OED "imagistic" is indeed a word. Why don't you look it up and tell me what it means?

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  153. @Alan

    PPS Here's the entry, just in case you're thinking of saying something ass-hat stupid again.

    Imagism - a movement in early 20th-century English and American poetry which sought clarity of expression through the use of precise images. The movement derived in part from the aesthetic philosophy of T. E. Hulme and involved Ezra Pound, James Joyce, Amy Lowell, and others.

    imagsitic - adj.

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  154. @Alan

    I used the word "imagistic" precisely as it should be used, you lazy slob.

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  155. Really?

    A theory is usually a statement about reality that makes predictions that can be checked by observation and experiment.

    What sort of theory is one that pertains to "a movement in early 20th-century English and American poetry which sought clarity of expression through the use of precise images.observation and experiment"?

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  156. @Alan
    I’m actually a bit disappointed for some reason. All you’ve done is made it evident yet again that you don’t understand the word. You’re not ashamed of your laziness in failing to look it up before criticizing. You’re not ashamed of your ongoing failure to grasp it.
    Here’s another hint for you, on the meaning of the word you willfully fail to understand. In case you’re too lazy to click on the link the article’s title is; *THOUGHT EXPERIMENTS
IN PHYSICS PROBLEM-SOLVING:
ON INTUITION AND IMAGISTIC SIMULATION*

    http://people.ds.cam.ac.uk/kst24/ResearchStudents/Georgiou%202005%20Thought%20Experiments.pdf

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  157. @Alan

    You do know the difference between "catholic" and "Catholic", don't you? There is a similar difference between "imagistic" and "Imagistic." Wow.

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  158. Imaginary is a word. It refers to an abstract concept that can also be thought of as "making stuff up".

    Well, that makes for a nice pattern. Patterns, of course, are abstractions. But sometimes they're easy to follow, and the one above is an interesting one to follow:

    Excuse is a word. It refers to a reason that can also be thought of as "something made up ".

    For example, someone might say, "The reason why I won't bother to educate myself regarding the abstract concepts I ignorantly opine on is that I haven't much time left."

    I once heard a story from a Japanese Buddhist. I'm fairly sure he made it up, but there are times when it seems like it might have application to something real:

    "I will tell you a story. The time was world war two, and the place a military camp in territory controlled by Japan. A young officer in the camp spent most of his free time studying geometry. One night he was summoned to the commander's tent. He went to the commander’s tent, and the commander told him he had been selected as one of several to fly a kamikaze mission the following day. The young officer bowed and left. Then he went back to his tent, and continued to study geometry.

    "Unremarkable story, yes? Yes, unremarkable story. But one with a puzzling aspect. It was the last night the young officer would be alive. It was his last night, so it was a precious night, a valuable night. The last of its kind. He could have gone drinking with others who also would be flying a kamikaze mission the following day. He could have visited one of the many comfort girls kept nearby. He could have done any of many things. It was his last night alive, why not have good time? Or do something special? His study of geometry could not be completed; he would be dead the following day. But after learning he would be flying to his death tomorrow, he went back to his tent, and continued to study geometry."

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  159. @Glenn

    Thanks. And that hits closer to home than you might think.

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  160. Mr. Green,

    I'll ignore the irrelevant stuff and zero in on:

    "conceiving does not require the intellect’s grasping something first;"

    Where is your evidence that Feser believes that grasping something intellectually does not require the intellect’s grasping that something first? It would require steps on the journey to conceiving in which conceiving occurs prior to conceiving. It sounds like nonsense to me. And as many errors as I think Feser makes, I doubt he'd argue this absurdity. So where are you getting it? Could you provide textual reference? You'll search in vain, I fear. Likewise you'll likely ignore the fact that fish do form a mental image of what they see regardless of what you think of their intellect. Before accusing me, please demonstrate you understand the subject matter.


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  161. Connoisseurs of troll-logic, please note that this:

    "Where is your evidence that Feser believes that grasping something intellectually does not require the intellect’s grasping that something first? It would require steps on the journey to conceiving in which conceiving occurs prior to conceiving."

    …is offered as a reply to this:

    "[C]onceiving does not require the intellect’s grasping something first; it just is the intellect’s grasping it" (bolding mine).

    Practice your facepalms, folks; I'm sure there's more to come.

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  162. I sense a book in the making: Fear and Loathing in AT Support.

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  163. >”conceiving does not require the intellect’s grasping something first;

    Wait, I could’ve sworn that there was a second half to that sentence when I posted it…

    Scott: Connoisseurs of troll-logic, please note that this: …is offered as a reply to this:
    "[C]onceiving does not require the intellect’s grasping something first; it just is the intellect’s grasping it”


    Ah, there it is!

    Practice your facepalms, folks; I'm sure there's more to come.

    Thanks, Scott. Fortunately I was too flabbergasted to palm my face, or I might have sprained something.


    Glenn: I sense a book in the making: Fear and Loathing in AT Support.

    Heh. But would it be a comedy or a tragedy?

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  164. Paul Amrhein wrote:

    @ Alan

    I’m actually a bit disappointed for some reason. All you’ve done is made it evident yet again that you don’t understand the word


    You are very perceptive to spot that from my question: "Is that a word?"

    So you are not using "Imagistic" in the sense of a poetry style but "imagistic" in the sense that a non-native English speaker uses it. I see in the paper you link to, he writes "that discriminating akin reasoning techniques involving imagination is a difficult task." Interesting use of "akin" too.

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  165. Glenn recounts:

    It was the last night the young officer would be alive. It was his last night, so it was a precious night, a valuable night. The last of its kind. He could have gone drinking with others who also would be flying a kamikaze mission the following day. He could have visited one of the many comfort girls kept nearby. He could have done any of many things. It was his last night alive, why not have good time? Or do something special? His study of geometry could not be completed; he would be dead the following day. But after learning he would be flying to his death tomorrow, he went back to his tent, and continued to study geometry.

    I confess I have a hard time taking the comments of some of the regulars here at all seriously but his made me think.

    I wondered why your kamikaze pilot might not think of his family, his mother, perhaps, and pen some last words of comfort and love. Perhaps write some profound Imagistic haiku that those left and to come could appreciate and treasure.

    But then I thought about the moral, religious, ideological certainty that could induce this kamikaze pilot to guide his plane loaded with explosives on to the deck of a US carrier crowded with personnel. The same sort of certainty that allowed the third Reich to industrially dispose of millions of people deemed expendable. The same sort of certainty that induces some convinced islamists to take over the control of a plane loaded with innocent passengers and fuel and fly it into a building full of office workers.

    You can keep your Catholic certainty. I'd rather have my doubts.

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  166. @Alan

    "So you are not using "Imagistic" in the sense of a poetry style but "imagistic" in the sense that a non-native English speaker uses it."

    No Alan, I'm not. I'm using it to refer to the philosophy of the movement, not the movement itself just as one writes "democratic" rather than "Democratic." I don't know how much clearer it can be.

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  167. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  168. @Alan

    PS Your "Is that a word?" question has already been answered. Yes, "imagistic" is a word, like it or not, and however often you repeat the question.

    Alan, when you look back one day, how do you think you will have become unstuck?

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  169. Paul Amrhein writes:

    Yes, "imagistic" is a word, like it or not, and however often you repeat the question.

    And I see that the word refers to a style of poetry that owes something to how Chinese characters build up abstract ideas by combining simpler concrete ideograms. You seem to indicate that was not your intended meaning. What I fail to see is what your linking to a paper by a Cypriot academic demonstrates. My suspicion is that you were just being pretentious with your "imagistic" in your statement:

    Imagining versus conceiving. Isn’t this a rather commonplace distinction nowadays? Isn’t it the same as the distinction between the imagistic part of a theory and its formalism?

    Did you just mean the difference between thinking of an explanation in your head and later trying to write it down clearly?

    Alan, when you look back one day, how do you think you will have become unstuck?

    Another example of stringing apparently common words together to achieve a meaningless statement. I'm going to do my bit for "imagistic" and try it out on friends by working it into the conversation.

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  170. @Alan

    No I was not *just* being pretentious. And you are welcome to your suspicions. But that's all you really have here.

    If you want to understand the imagistic/formalism distinction you should check out the works of TS Kuhn.

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  171. @Alan

    Just for the heck of it, try working "imaginal" into your conversations too. But don't forget to look it up first.

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  172. Allan,

    The story is about the comportment of an unknown man on the last night of his life.

    But I do thank you for responding as if it were a Rorschach test.

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  173. @Alan

    "Imagining versus conceiving. Isn’t this a rather commonplace distinction nowadays? Isn’t it the same as the distinction between the imagistic part of a theory and its formalism?" PA

    "

Did you just mean the difference between thinking of an explanation in your head and later trying to write it down clearly?
" AF

    No Alan, I don’t. That’s one of the cliches you read into nearly everything. It’s the model versus formalism distinction. No promises but I’ll look for some quotations on it. Once again you’ve commented on something without or before understanding it. That’s a peculiar habit of yours.

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  174. Paul Amrhein suggests:

    Just for the heck of it, try working "imaginal" into your conversations too.

    "Imaginal" is a perfectly good word that crops up quite a bit in insect biology. Google "imaginal disc" for instance.

    Odd you should refer me to Thomas Kuhn, whose development of the idea of paradigm shifts and the impossibility of considering reality without operating though some paradigm has some merit. Though I might not go as far as his analogy with truth evolving in some unguided fashion as in biological evolution.

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  175. @Alan

    I wonder how you would respond if I used "imaginal" in a way you were unfamiliar with. That's not really germane, but I wonder.

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  176. Mr. Green,

    "But conceiving does not require the intellect’s grasping something first; it just is the intellect’s grasping it"

    Well, finally y'all found something I misread, after all these years. You see, I can admit that much when it happens. But it doesn't let you off the hook. You keep avoid the main problem with your case. What is your definition of conceiving as you see it and as you think Feser sees it. I've asked you for something along those lines but maybe it wasn't direct enough. So now I ask directly. If you're so sure of your case back it up with quotes that either contradict or qualify those quotes I've already given. Until you do that I'm going to presume you have no evidence.

    Glenn,

    This is what Mr. Green said.

    "There are things that can be conceived but not imagined, but nothing that can be imagined yet not conceived."

    Here is the form of that sentence:

    There are things that can be X yet not Y, but nothing that can be Y yet not X.

    Scott's example was deceptive. Instead of two terms he threw together three: red + being-extended + shape. I'm not sure which two of those three he would plug into X and Y, but he clearly cannot plug in three when there are variables for only two. Any two I choose I get something either plainly false or Y is still a subset of X. So I must disregard Scott's ballooning of the variable count. I still see no way, if the sentence is true, whatever we put in for X and Y, that Y would not be a subset of X.



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  177. Glenn,
    This is what Mr. Green said.
    ...
    Here is the form of that sentence:
    ...
    Scott's example was deceptive. Instead of two terms he threw together three: red + being-extended + shape.


    1. There appear to be cross-linked clusters in the FAT of your mind:

    2. Scott's example was given, not in response to what Mr. Green had said, but in response to what you had said:

    You (to Mr. Green.): "Your original complaint to me was that nothing can be imagined yet not conceived. This would make 'imagine' a subset of 'conceive.'"

    Scott: No more than nothing can be red without being extended makes "red" a shape.

    3. You are right that there is a deception. But the deception is on your part, not Scott's. For it simply isn't true that, "Instead of two terms he threw together three".

    Look again at Scott's example in response to what you had said:

    You (to Mr. Green): ...This would make ['imagine' is a subset of 'conceive'].

    Scott: No more than ['red' is a shape because 'nothing can be red without being extended'].

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  178. (Btw, don't forget why Scott's 'example' was given.)

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  179. Perhaps my 2. above would be clearer were the gist of it to be restated as follows:

    Whereas you had said (in effect), "X would make 'imagine' a subset of 'conceive'", Scott had replied (in effect), "no more than Y would make 'red' a subset of 'shape'".

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  180. @Alan

    While I look for more examples, there is the change in the definition of the derivative that took place from Newton to Weierstrass. Berkeley criticized Newton’s “fluxions” model for being fuzzy and ill-defined. He was not alone. Finally Weierstrass “formalized” it. This is an example of what some refer to as “the victory of the formalism.” Intuitive or imagistic definitions are discarded in place of “formal” or abstract “definitions” e.g. the limit replacing “fluxions.”

    What does this have to do with imagining versus conceiving? Well, the preference for a formalism is a preference for conceiving over imagineering.

    Dedekind’s cut is also an example. He replaced the geometric or visual idea of the continuum with an arithmetical one, or an imagistic one with a conceptual one.

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  181. Glenn,

    Whereas you had said (in effect), "X would make 'imagine' a subset of 'conceive'", Scott had replied (in effect), "no more than Y would make 'red' a subset of 'shape'."

    So let's apply "red" and shape" to the form of the sentence in question:

    "There are things that can be red yet not a shape, but nothing that can be a shape yet not red." -- that is a false statement. So it doesn't apply.

    "There are things that can be a shape yet not red, but nothing that can be red yet not a shape. -- that is also a false statement. So it doesn't apply.

    Suppose we use color instead of red since the attribute of color is what's important, I think:

    "There are things that can be a shape yet not a color, but nothing that can be a color yet not a shape." -- I think this is untrue since "shapeless" fog can have a color. So it doesn't apply.

    "There are things that can be a color yet not a shape, but nothing that can be a shape yet not a color." -- This may e untrue. But let's be lenient and assume all shapes, even if we classify them as transparent, do have a color in the sense that they alter light waves in some way -- otherwise we couldn't see them. Then "a shape" is still a subset of things which are of a color. My claim remains intact.

    So, again, how is "red" and "shape" helping you?

    I'll note that this dispute started because Mr. Green claimed the following sentence fragment was nonsense: "If per se can be imagined yet not conceived..." But it's now strongly argued that "to be imagined" is not entirely within the set of things we can conceive. Even though Scott's reasoning is flawed in regard to "red," "shape" and "extend," he's not helping Mr. Green when he claims imagine is not in the subset of conceive. He's helping me. This non-subset status was implied in my phrase which Mr. Green claimed to be nonsense. If neither term is the subset of the other, that means there are things imagined which are outside of the set of things conceived. So my sentence fragment cannot be nonsense after all.



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  182. @Don

    Could you give an example of something that can be imagined but not conceived? You mentioned the movies before. If you've already answered this somewhere just point me to where.

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  183. @Don

    I think you’re looking for a definition of “conceiving” or maybe just for professor Feser’s definition of it.

    There are two kinds of definition, intensive and extensive. The first is the kind of definition Socrates would ask for - “What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for a thing’s being an X?” For an extensive definition, one lists examples of the kind of thing one wishes to define. I’m pretty sure Professor Feser gave the latter kind of definition in SM, rather than the first. The chiliagon is the famous example. It seems you find this kind of definition unsatisfactory. Yes? All for now.

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  184. So my sentence fragment cannot be nonsense after all.

    Comment moderation is on, so this will be my last response, and I'll keep it short: I'll agree that you believe it cannot be nonsense.

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  185. Since comment moderation has been enabled, I too shall submit one final post to this thread.

    (1) The following propositions are not the same and should not be sloppily conflated:

    (a) The set of things that can be conceived is a subset of the things that can be imagined.

    (b) Conceiving something is a special case/way of imagining it.

    (a) can be true even if (b) is false. For example, even if imagination and conception are different processes, it could still be the case that everything that can be imagined can also be conceived. (Likewise, even if being red is not itself a way of being extended, it could still be the case that the set of red things is a subset of the set of extended things.)

    (2) Imagining a ball's appearing is not the same thing as imagining a ball's appearing uncaused. The latter, as Mr. Green pointed out long ago, is not something that can be imagined.

    If we can imagine a ball's appearing, then we can conceive that event as well. But that we can imagine its appearing does not mean that we can imagine its appearing causelessly.

    (3) And as for the claim that started this whole silly "conversation": to say that one concept is easily grasped by the intellect is very obviously not to say that all concepts are by definition easily grasped by the intellect. You might as well say that My nephew is tall implies that being tall is part of the definition of "nephew."

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  186. This is very confusing:

    Like arithmetic, the key metaphysical ideas that underlie Aristotelian-Thomistic arguments for God’s existence -- the theory of act and potency, the principle of causality, the principle of finality, and so forth -- certainly have implications for what we observe in the empirical world, but, equally certainly, they are not going to be falsified by anything we observe in the empirical world.

    If A implies B and B is something we might observe in the empirical world, then surely observing (not B) would imply (not A). How can any idea have implications for the empirical world without exposing itself to potential falsification?

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