Saturday, August 16, 2014

Carroll on Scholastic Metaphysics



Edward Feser’s latest book gives readers who are familiar with analytic philosophy an excellent overview of scholastic metaphysics in the tradition of Thomas Aquinas…

Feser argues that Thomistic philosophy can expand and enrich today’s metaphysical reflection. His book is an effective challenge to anyone who would dismiss scholastic metaphysics as irrelevant.

Those familiar with Feser’s many books and lively blog will recognize his characteristic vigor and his wide-ranging reading of contemporary and medieval sources. This book is particularly aimed at those trained in the Anglo-American analytical tradition, repeatedly referencing contemporary debates in this tradition…

The recovery of scholastic metaphysics depends on the recovery of that understanding of nature and substance that is central to the thought of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. That recovery begins, I think, by challenging the historical narrative that tells us that its loss was a necessary feature of the rise of modern science. In his new book, Edward Feser has taken a key step in this important endeavor.

End quote.  Bill also has some gently critical remarks about the book.  First, he says:

For readers not familiar with contemporary analytical philosophy, Feser’s book, despite its title, is not really an introduction…

That is more or less correct.  The book is not a “popular” work.  It is meant as an introduction to Scholastic metaphysics for those who already have some knowledge of philosophy, especially analytic philosophy.  It is also meant to introduce those who are already familiar with Scholastic philosophy to what is going on in contemporary analytic metaphysics.  It is not a book that would be very accessible to those who have no knowledge of philosophy.  I would think that most readers who have read Aquinas or The Last Superstition should be able to handle it, though.  It is, essentially, a much deeper, more systematic, book-length treatment of the metaphysical ideas and arguments sketched out in chapter 2 of Aquinas and chapter 2 of TLS.

With these aims of the book in mind, let me briefly respond to some of Bill’s other remarks.  Bill rightly notes that with many modern readers “there is an a priori disposition to dismiss scholastic metaphysics as a curiosity” based on the assumption that modern science somehow put paid to Aristotelian and Thomistic philosophy once and for all.  Adequately to rebut this false assumption requires in Bill’s view that we “argue against it through a historical analysis of its origins,” and that is not the sort of thing I attempt in the book.

Now in fact I do say a little bit by way of historical analysis in the book, e.g. at pp. 47-53, where I discuss how historically contingent and challengeable are the assumptions underlying Humean approaches to causation.  But it is true that the book’s approach is more along the lines of the “ahistorical” weighing of ideas and arguments that is common in analytic philosophy.  And that is, I think, more appropriate to the specific aims of the book.  I show, many times throughout the book, how various specific purportedly science-based objections to Scholastic metaphysical claims hold no water.  And of course, I also present many positive arguments for these metaphysical claims.  If a critic of Scholasticism wants to refute those arguments, he needs to address them directly rather than toss out vague hand-waving references to science. 

Still, I think it is true that the appeal to what the founders of modern science purportedly showed vis-à-vis Aristotelian philosophy (as opposed to Aristotelian science) has a rhetorical force for many readers that is hard to counter even with the best “ahistorical” arguments.  So, a historical analysis of the sort Bill advocates is, I agree, essential.  I did a bit of that in The Last Superstition, and Bill Carroll’s own work on the history of science, theology, and philosophy is, needless to say, invaluable. 

Bill also says:

I also would emphasize the doctrine of creation more than Feser does. It is an important feature in scholastic metaphysics, but there is not even an entry for “creation” in the book’s index… Thomas [Aquinas] thinks that in the discipline of metaphysics one can demonstrate that all that exists has been created by God, and that without God’s ongoing causality, there would be nothing at all. 

Bill is right that I do not discuss creation in the book, nor -- contrary to the impression Bill gives in a reference he makes in the review to Aquinas’s unmoved mover argument -- do I say much about natural theology at all.  That was deliberate.  I wanted to focus in the book on Scholastic approaches to certain “nuts and bolts” issues in metaphysics -- causal powers, essence, substance, and so forth -- that underlie everything else in Scholastic philosophy and have been the subject of renewed attention in analytic philosophy.  And I wanted to make it clear that the key notions of Scholastic metaphysics are motivated and defensible entirely independently of their application to arguments in natural theology.  (I have, of course, addressed questions of natural theology in several books and articles, and will do so at even greater depth in forthcoming work.)

In any event, I highly recommend Bill’s own work on the subject of creation, including Aquinas on Creation, a translation by Bill and Steven Baldner of some key texts of Aquinas on the subject, together with a long and very useful introductory essay.

Finally, Bill says:

In the beginning of the book, Feser promises to write another book on the philosophy of nature. This will be a welcome addition to his publications. Indeed, a problem that lurks behind the confusion in contemporary philosophy’s encounter with scholastic metaphysics is the loss of the sense of nature that is a characteristic starting point for Aristotle and Thomas. Feser takes up this topic in his chapter on substance, but such a discussion really ought to be conducted first in the philosophy of nature, not in metaphysics. The loss of an understanding of substance, of form and matter, and of similarly foundational ideas are all part of the larger loss of what we mean by nature.

End quote.  I agree.  I deliberately avoided going in detail into questions about the nature of biological substances in particular, or even chemical substances in particular, precisely because those are topics properly treated in the philosophy of nature rather than metaphysics.  All the same, I did say something about these topics, and (as Bill indicates) I say a lot in the book about substance in general and about form and matter.  The reason is that these are very definitely metaphysical topics as “metaphysics” is understood in contemporary analytic philosophy.  And they needed to be treated at some length in a book aimed at an analytic audience; the book would have seemed oddly incomplete to many contemporary readers without such a treatment, given the other topics addressed.  For “philosophy of nature” as a distinct discipline has, unfortunately, virtually disappeared in contemporary philosophy (though there are hopeful signs of a comeback), and its subject matter has been absorbed into metaphysics, philosophy of science, philosophy of biology, philosophy of chemistry, and so forth. 

Here I would urge Thomists and other Scholastics always to keep in mind that the typical contemporary academic philosopher simply does not carve up the conceptual territory the way they do.  What Scholastics think is covered by “metaphysics,” what they think constitutes a “science,” etc. does not correspond exactly to the way analytic philosophers think about these disciplines (though of course there is overlap).  So -- as I think Bill would agree -- for the contemporary Scholastic effectively to communicate with analytic philosophers, he needs to make some concession to contemporary usage and current interests in academic philosophy.  In the case of my book, that made an extended treatment of hylemorphism necessary, even though in older Scholastic works that would often have been done in the context of philosophy of nature rather than metaphysics.

Anyway, I thank Bill for his review -- and for his own work, from which I have profited much.

326 comments:

  1. @Alan:

    I guess I'll never know what the TCA amounts to unless I buy at least one of Feser's books. Show me where I said I was "going to tell us which of its premises you reject and why" and I'll buy it.

    I’ll try.

    You wrote: “if you are basing a claim on a premise about the universe, whether it is or is not infinite, whether it or is not bounded, whether it exists in the same or in some different form beyond the limits of the past and future light-cone, then the argument is not sound.” In other words, if the CA used premises about the universe that are beyond what is knowable, then the argument is “not sound”, which is true. However, the flipside is that if the CA uses premises about the universe that are knowable, then it might be sound after all.

    Further down the thread, you wrote: “Is whether the universe finite etc a premise. If it is we have a problem as a sound argument cannot follow from invalid premises. If it is not, we can move on quite quickly, as I have no objection in principle to the logic.” It has been demonstrated that “whether the universe [is] finite etc” is not a premise of the CA, which means that since you have “no objection in principle to the logic”, meaning that the argument itself is formally valid, it only remains for you to demonstrate that the premises are incorrect. After all, if you reject a valid argument, then it can only be if the premises are false.

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  2. "you are certainly correct that what WE CAN KNOW about what is beyond the universe is very limited." -- "Most of our knowledge of it is essentially the negation of different characteristics of the universe, e.g. it is immutable, infinite, immaterial, etc"

    ***1. That is illogical nonsense. He says: Our KNOWLEDGE IS A "NEGATION"! A negation of "immutable", "infinite" and "immaterial"? -- What, pray, is that supposed to mean?

    ***2. And why a negation of these categories? If anything exists "beyond the universe" it might have either same or different "characteristics" as ours. We cannot know it, and consequently it cannot be described as "knowledge". Or does the writer mean 'NEGATIVE knowledge'(!), since he continues:

    "we also have some limited POSITIVE KNOWLEDGE of it" -- "The problem is how to understand this positive knowledge" -- " the classical solution is to POSTULATE some kind of SIMILARITY OR RESEMBLANCE BETWEEN THE UNIVERSE AND WHAT IS BEYOND."

    ***There are no grounds for assuming a "similarity or resemblance". To postulate it cannot only lead to the conclusion intended by postulating it - which proves nothing. And - what is even more illogical - this groundless, postulated assumption is cited as grounds for:

    "our PREDICTION of what is beyond the universe on the basis of A KIND OF ANALOGICAL PREDICATION with what is within the universe"

    ***In other words, we look at what prevails in our universe and by analogy predict what is "beyond the universe". What validity can such a "prediction" have? And anyway a PREDICTION IS NOT "KNOWLEDGE" BUT SPECULATION.

    The fatal fallacy in all theological or philosophical sophistry) is the assumption that by logic and rationality alone it is possible to acquire knowledge of our own universe and beyond it. --- Sit on your backside in the middle of the desert and ponder - and you can solve the mystery of our existence! --- Typical Platonism. - (You'll never discover an ebola virus that way either.)

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  3. Do you know what it means for something to be mutable? We can know pure act is definitely not that; it is immutable. Do you know what it means for something to be finite? We can know pure act is definitely not that; it is infinite. This does not require us to grasp the immutable or infinite. The latter is likely impossible [to grasp].

    I won't get into your points about matter or analogical predication, because... baby steps.

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  4. Anonymous:

    1. That is illogical nonsense. He says: Our KNOWLEDGE IS A "NEGATION"! A negation of "immutable", "infinite" and "immaterial"? -- What, pray, is that supposed to mean?

    The negation of immutable is mutable; the negation of infinite is finite; and the negation of immaterial is material. Pretty obvious, really. And since the universe is characterized by its mutability, its finitude and its materiality, that which is beyond the universe is characterized by the negation of those characteristics, i.e. it is immutable, infinite and immaterial. After all, if it shared those characteristics, then it would be part of the universe.

    2. And why a negation of these categories? If anything exists "beyond the universe" it might have either same or different "characteristics" as ours. We cannot know it, and consequently it cannot be described as "knowledge".

    Part of the answer is that if the cosmological argument is sound, then the changeable and changing universe is caused by a being that is pure act. Pure act is devoid of all potency, which means that any properties associated with potency cannot be predicated of pure act. For example, since change is the transition from potency to act, pure act cannot change, and thus is immutable.

    There are no grounds for assuming a "similarity or resemblance".

    There are grounds, actually, but they require a background in classical metaphysics. All effects resemble their causes in some way, partly because the effect is pre-contained within the cause in some way. For example, the sun causes wood to burn, because heat pre-exists in the sun and is then transmitted to the wood, which becomes hot and burns. The sun resembles the wood in that they are both hot.

    In other words, we look at what prevails in our universe and by analogy predict what is "beyond the universe". What validity can such a "prediction" have? And anyway a PREDICTION IS NOT "KNOWLEDGE" BUT SPECULATION.

    No. On the basis of metaphysical reasoning, we come to possess some knowledge, both positive and negative, of that which transcends the universe. It is not a prediction that can be subsequently confirmed by empirical experimentation, much like the conclusion of Godel’s theorem(s) cannot be scientifically confirmed, and yet is true.

    The fatal fallacy in all theological or philosophical sophistry) is the assumption that by logic and rationality alone it is possible to acquire knowledge of our own universe and beyond it.

    If logical and rational principles are operative both within and beyond the universe, then why can’t logical and rational arguments lead to conclusions both about the universe and what is beyond the universe?

    You'll never discover an ebola virus that way either.

    Well, you don’t need metaphysical reasoning to discover an ebola virus. That would be best suited to scientific inquiry, but since scientific inquiry is not the only kind of inquiry there is, unless you endorse a self-refuting doctrine of scientism, the fact that different kinds of truths require different kinds of rational inquiry is not undermined in the least.

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  5. An old post, so I doubt this comment will be read. However, if you are a layman without much philosophic background but have read TLS and Aquinas, you will have no problem handling this book. As you know, Dr. Feser is a very clear writer. You can feel confident purchasing.

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  6. Seems to me that whatever foundation, beyond the nonsense and idiocy, of the criticisms of TCA here is provided by idea that, to put it briefly, seeing is believing - that if something cannot be empirically tested it cannot be knowledge.

    Really, though, this isn't even an argument. It is a psychological and rhetorical appeal to what a lot of people find plausible - that things far beyond our senses cannot be spoken about with any certainty.

    That said, although Dr. Feser has written admirably against scientism, I think classical theists could do with spending more time refuting all forms of empiricism and positivism.

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  7. @dguller

    I am presupposing Thomist metaphysical apparatus in my terminology.

    Agreed. That is what you are doing.

    That is true of some physical actions, but not universally true of all actions. For example, what is the equal and opposite reaction to the act of thinking?

    Actually it is true of all physical actions. In the case of thought, per your question, calories are being burned.

    Since some activity does not presuppose change in the agent, the answer would be “yes”.

    Provide an example such an activity, if you would.

    Regarding the Premise 4 objection, yes you would need an argument showing the actual impossibility of an infinite series of accidental causes, which as you say, Aquinas himself rejects.

    But the universe cannot be pure act, because the universe undergoes change in the form of various transitions from potency to act.

    While this may be true of things contained by the universe, it does not follow that it is true of the universe itself, or at least it has not been demonstrated to be the case.

    Its conclusion purports to demonstrate that the universe itself is causally dependent upon something beyond the universe

    Not necessarily, as this depends on the resolution of the possible fallacy of composition alluded to above.

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  8. Alan and Co. waste a lot of time and energy on this blog in the comments. We can treat them with charity but we should not waste our time taking them more seriously than their knowledge (of the New Atheists straw men) and the consequent assumed superiority [complex] justifies. They think they are right without understanding that many ‘counter-arguments’ they read in the Pop-Atheism books are laughed at in serious theistic circles. Not all the arguments of course but then the ‘good’ ones were not devised by any of the ‘new’ atheists to begin with!

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  9. Bob,

    It seems just as serious to speak of the unvierse as a genuine unity as it does to speak of orchards as things (apart from the trees that make them up) or four diamonds glued together or piles of trash.

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  10. @Bob:

    Actually it is true of all physical actions.

    You are correct. I misspoke.

    In the case of thought, per your question, calories are being burned.

    Except that in Platonic and Aristotelian thought, acts of intellect are immaterial, and thus can operate independently of matter.

    Provide an example such an activity, if you would.

    The conclusion of the CA is supposed to provide such an example. If a being that is pure act is a necessary consequence of the change in the universe, then it must be possible for a being to act without itself undergoing any change. But perhaps another more mundane example would be a painting that is perceived by someone does not change in the act of being perceived, because it remains physically the same, whether it is perceived or not.

    Regarding the Premise 4 objection, yes you would need an argument showing the actual impossibility of an infinite series of accidental causes, which as you say, Aquinas himself rejects.

    Agreed. Thanks for that powerful objection. I’d be very interested in how knowledgeable commenters would respond to your objection.

    While this may be true of things contained by the universe, it does not follow that it is true of the universe itself, or at least it has not been demonstrated to be the case.

    Well, the universe itself is expanding, and expansion is a change. Unless you mean something else by “universe”?

    Not necessarily, as this depends on the resolution of the possible fallacy of composition alluded to above.

    There is no need to resolve a possible fallacy, but only an actual one. So, you would first have to demonstrate that the fallacy of composition was actually being committed here, and then a response would be warranted.

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  11. Bob: "Regarding the Premise 4 objection, yes you would need an argument showing the actual impossibility of an infinite series of accidental causes[.]"

    dguller: "Agreed."

    Hey, not so fast. ;-) The other possible reply to the Premise 4 objection is to argue that if a per se series appears to terminate in a first cause that is itself brought into being by accidental causes, then we haven't genuinely arrived at the first cause of the per se series after all.

    I think that reply is sound, and I also think it's the one Ed makes in Aquinas. The causal series involves not just the actions but the (continued) existence of each member; a merely accidental cause of such a member could be only a cause in fieri ("in becoming"), not in esse ("in being"). So if we think we've found the first cause in a per se series but it can't account for its own present existence, then it isn't the true first cause.

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  12. dguller,

    here's a stab at Scotus. I am going to lay the whole thing out so that I can better understand it. I am giving that disclaimer for fear that I will sound condescending in the sort of plain way that I am articulating Scotus' argument, but be assured that it is for my benefit.

    you say,

    So, unless Scotus can show that there is a change of form somewhere in the per accidens series, then by his own premises, there is no need for “some nature of infinite duration”.

    Scotus is responding to the objection to the CA that an infinity of causes is possible. Avicenna, as he says, speaks of an infinity of individuals in a species. He does not deny the possibility, but says this infinite series is of a different kind than the series that he has been speaking of in the first two chapters of the treatise. He has been speaking so far of essentially ordered causes, but the objection raised is equivocating ("we have merely a one-to-one comparison, namely of the cause to that which is caused").

    He then goes one to distinguish the two kinds of causes in three ways.

    1. In the essentially ordered series, the effect depends upon the cause in the act of causing (in the accidentally ordered series the effect might depend on the cause for its existence, but not in the act of causing)

    2. In the essentially ordered series, the effect is lacking something that the cause provides (as above, this is not the case in the accidentally ordered series)

    3. In the essentially ordered series, the cause is simultaneous with the effect (etc)

    He then goes on to argue that the accidentally ordered series is impossible in the absence of the essentially ordered series

    This, I take it, is because of the differences he has already discussed. An effect in an accidentally ordered series does not receive its being from the cause, even if it depends on the cause for its being (my daughter depends on my father for her existence, but it is only through the cooperation of myself and my wife that she received that existence). This is one way of showing that an accidentally ordered series would not exist in the absence of an essentially ordered series, since nothing new could be generated if all the causes were "of the same nature" (accidentally ordered, that is).

    I think that Scotus does then address Bob's objection that, "Premise 4 seems to ignore the possibility of an accidental -> per se type of series and seems to be based on a false dichotomy of either accident or per se."

    Scotus does not rely on a false dichotomy, but explains why the accidental series is dependent on the per se series. He does so in such a brief and "subtle" way, though, that I still am not quite satisfied with my account. Perhaps, though, it suffices to ask if it even makes sense to think of accidental series as existing apart from per se series.

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  13. Sorry, Scott, it appears we were commenting at the same time.

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  14. @Scott:

    The other possible reply to the Premise 4 objection is to argue that if a per se series appears to terminate in a first cause that is itself brought into being by accidental causes, then we haven't genuinely arrived at the first cause of the per se series after all.

    But we have, not in the sense of metaphysical ultimacy perhaps, but that the extrinsic causality of the per se series is reduced to the intrinsic causality of an agent that stands at the origin of the per se series itself. In other words, there just has to be some agent that has intrinsic causality that uses the per se series as an instrument and transmits its causal power throughout the per se series itself. Some other argument is required to show that this agent cannot be the result of a previous per accidens series.

    The causal series involves not just the actions but the (continued) existence of each member; a merely accidental cause of such a member could be only a cause in fieri ("in becoming"), not in esse ("in being"). So if we think we've found the first cause in a per se series but it can't account for its own present existence, then it isn't the true first cause.

    This would be that “other argument” that I spoke of. Per accidens series can only account for how X came into existence in the first place, but cannot account for why X remains in existence. For example, a father can account for how a son came into existence, but cannot account for why the son continues to exist after the father is gone. In fact, per accidens series are defined by the absence of ongoing causal efficacy, whereas per se series are defined by the presence of ongoing causal efficacy. Therefore, it is impossible for a per accidens series to account for the ongoing existence of X, which means that only a per se series can account for the ongoing existence of X. In other words, a per accidens series has literally nothing to offer in terms of explaining why something continues to exist. So, if X’s existence is not self-explanatory, then there must be a per se series that accounts for the ongoing existence of X, and that per se series must terminate in an origin, because an actually infinite per se series is impossible. And the existence of that origin must be self-explanatory by virtue of being pure act, utterly devoid of the possibility of not existing.

    Nicely done. And of course, Feser did make this argument in Aquinas: “the only way to stop this regress and arrive at a first member of the series is with something whose very existence, and not merely its operations or activities, need not be actualized by anything else. This would just be something which, since it simply exists without being made to exist by anything, or is actual without being actualized, is pure act, with no admixture of potentiality whatsoever” (p. 75).

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  15. Matt:

    Thanks for the elucidation. I think I understand Scotus' point, and it is similar to Scott's. It seems that the CA is not vulnerable to Bob's objection after all. :)

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  16. here's my final message to the Feser logicians:

    In plain language, what it boils down to with all your logical acrobatics, all you are really trying to "prove" is that there MUST have been a STARTER. Infinite regression is "impossible", so there must have been something that STARTED everything, and that's why we are here - and not 'not here'.

    It's really a simple argument. No need to dress it up in long words to impress the unwary and make it sound too complex for normal humans to understand - that is being pretentious. The argument is no more than what most people probably think: 'Surely there must be something, someone, responsible for our existence, it must have STARTED somehow'.

    Firstly, no abstract speculation can prove rationally, logically, that there MUST have been a 'beginning', and hence there need not necessarily have been a STARTER. --- If we ARE ever able to prove that there was a beginning and find an explanation for it, it will not be achieved by abstract-speculative Platonic pondering, but by the empirical scientific search for knowledge. I say 'if'... but I doubt it will ever happen.

    Secondly, this argument could never prove the existence of God anyway, even if it WERE waterproof (which it isn't). It could only prove that 'some undefinable something' started everything. That's all.

    I have little respect for the search for the ultimate explanation merely through a cognitive process of 'logical' argument. I have more respect for the simple faith that Jesus was the Son of God and he died to save us all. - I don't believe that myself, but I can at least understand why others may well do.

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  17. "In plain language, what it boils down to with all your logical acrobatics, all you are really trying to 'prove' is that there MUST have been a STARTER."

    Actually, no, that's dead wrong. Too bad your final message to us went so badly awry, but don't let the door hit you and all that.

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  18. @ Anon

    I have little respect for the search for the ultimate explanation merely through a cognitive process of 'logical' argument. I have more respect for the simple faith that Jesus was the Son of God and he died to save us all. - I don't believe that myself, but I can at least understand why others may well do.

    Yeah, by now it is evident why your understanding ends where logical argumentation begins.

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  19. Greg wrote:

    But buying a book probably wouldn't kill you.

    Wheat from chaff, greg. I haven't enough time left to read all the books recommended, lent, given or bought. My daughter sends me books on Buddhism (Feser could learn something about marketing from the Dalai Lama), I have recently made the acquaintance of a charming Quaker couple who (on request, Quakers don't proselytize) have promised to lend me selected material next time we meet. Plus, I come here due to my interest in the fortunes of the ID movement, where my interactions lave led me to be cynical of the "buy my book" ploy. Allow me to be sceptical of Feser's claim to have an irrefutable argument for "pure act" or "ground of being" or God, even. For one thing, why is it not front page news? Why are disciples not thronging the streets with the good news?

    When I posted the argument for you before, you copied the premises and pasted them on your other website to see which one you could reject. Inevitably this means that you will not address arguments made for the premises in book-length treatments, arguments which are in book because there are several of them and they take up space. If you're not interested, that's fine, but that is not a weakness on the part of the argument.

    Origin of Species is not a long book (1st edition) nor difficult to read, but the essential theory can be summarized accurately in a couple of sentences. Nobody has to read Darwin's treatise to understand his theory. Though it is a good read and Voyage of the Beagle even better if historical background interests you.

    Regarding Craig, I would agree that people generally do not decide to be Christians, or theists for that matter, on the basis of deductive arguments, but nor do people decide to be atheists for that reason. Craig's debates are pretty influential, though. People report that he plays a role in their consideration of Christianity. Some remain atheists but say that they have come to appreciate Christianity; others might convert as a result of a number of factors.

    I doubt that Craig has much influence beyond his natural environment of the US Bible belt. Someone said (I'm paraphrasing as I can't find the quote at the moment) "To those who have faith, an argument is unnecessary; to those who lack faith, no argument is sufficient."

    Craig and Plantinga do argue that their belief in God is warranted independently of any arguments.

    See above!

    I don't hold reformed epistemology, but I do think that they are also able to retort in a way that atheists cannot, ie. because their belief does not depend on any particular argument, they can evaluate the arguments more dispassionately, whereas a demonstration of God's existence would require that someone abandon strict atheism.

    There's a gulf of misconception here. Atheism is lack of belief in the whole panoply of proposed "gods" etc. It's the null hypothesis. I go back to Russell's teapot. I don't need to refute Russell's teapot because there are no testable entailments, no reason to look for the teapot. I don't need to refute the TCA because there are no testable entailments (unless you tell me different) and I have no need to refute the Catholic version of God as there are no testable entailments.

    My innate curiosity does lead me to ask the question, well what is this TCA that is so marvellous but the stock "courtier's replies" typified by grodruiges and Scott are reinforcing my feeling that I am the little boy in the crowd looking at Emperor Feser.

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  21. Dguller wrote:

    [quotes AF]I guess I'll never know what the TCA amounts to unless I buy at least one of Feser's books. Show me where I said I was "going to tell us which of its premises you reject and why" and I'll buy it.

    I’ll try.


    OK, thanks for taking the trouble!

    You wrote: “if you are basing a claim on a premise about the universe, whether it is or is not infinite, whether it or is not bounded, whether it exists in the same or in some different form beyond the limits of the past and future light-cone, then the argument is not sound.” In other words, if the CA used premises about the universe that are beyond what is knowable, then the argument is “not sound”, which is true. However, the flipside is that if the CA uses premises about the universe that are knowable, then it might be sound after all.

    Well, exactly! An argument based on a premise that may as likely be invalid as valid cannot be sound. Or should we argue probabilities? Is there an outside to THE Universe (of which this universe may only be a part)? I have no idea how to calculate the probability of an unverifiable conjecture.

    Further down the thread, you wrote: “Is whether the universe finite etc a premise. If it is we have a problem as a sound argument cannot follow from invalid premises. If it is not, we can move on quite quickly, as I have no objection in principle to the logic.” It has been demonstrated that “whether the universe [is] finite etc” is not a premise of the CA, which means that since you have “no objection in principle to the logic”, meaning that the argument itself is formally valid, it only remains for you to demonstrate that the premises are incorrect. After all, if you reject a valid argument, then it can only be if the premises are false.

    Well, I think it is an implied premise in the summary you kindly provided. Also logic does not address reality. Mathematics is a great tool for modelling aspects of reality but particles (fermions and bosons - or perhaps there are only fields as Sean Carroll claims) do not carry rule books. Observation follows reality, not vice versa. so when I say "in principle" this is what I mean - whether formal logic has any bearing on reality other than as a useful modelling tool in hypothesis construction.

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  22. The fatal fallacy in all theological or philosophical sophistry) is the assumption that by logic and rationality alone it is possible to acquire knowledge of our own universe and beyond it. --- Sit on your backside in the middle of the desert and ponder - and you can solve the mystery of our existence! --- Typical Platonism. - (You'll never discover an ebola virus that way either.)

    Harsh but fair point!

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  23. Alan,

    Better than buying a book, you could just watch this video


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  24. @ Matt Sheean

    OK

    Are the premises listed at about 6 minutes in presented as "change" the definitve premises? It does seem very dumbed down (coldness of coffee,).

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  25. He does seem to mention "causes" a lot!

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  26. Paintbrush analogy seems as convincing as the coffee cup!

    "First causes"? "Change requires a changer"?

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  27. Could have done with a few power-point slides!

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  28. Alan,

    Do you think that you could summarize the argument presented in the video?

    When you are finished, of course, not as the video is playing. It is nice to know that you are watching it, though.

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  29. Matt Sheean asks:

    Do you think that you could summarize the argument presented in the video?

    Sure, but could I be assured that this is the definitive version of Feser's TCA, rather than one of the straw-man versions everyone from Bertrand Russell on has been attacking.

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  30. PS It's the start of the rentrée after the weekend so I'm shortly leaving for a social gathering involving gazpacho, paella and sunshine (with luck) and other social events tomorrow so it may be a few days before I can find more time. Chase me up here if you need.

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  31. That sounds like fun.

    In the video, the argument from motion (or change) is treated of.

    Cosmological Arguments are a sort of family of arguments. The one in the video is one of those arguments, and seeing its striking resemblance to the first of those famous five ways, and since the "straw man" you refer to just doesn't look like any CA in particular (in virtue of its being a straw man) it seems the answer to your question, in any case, is yes.

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  32. An argument based on a premise that may as likely be invalid as valid cannot be sound.

    Premises are true or false; arguments are valid or invalid.

    Alan, here is a harsh but fair point: you are an ignoramus who has no idea what he is talking about. You have you tried to weigh into discussions here and have shown you are deeply ignorant, but apparently that doesn't stop you mouthing off with great self-assurance.

    Do everyone a favor and take the time to learn enough to make a worthwhile contribution or go away. At the moment you are simply a troll.

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  33. Alan Fox: I haven't enough time left to read all the books recommended, lent, given or bought.

    Good grief squared! You don’t have time to find out what you’re talking about, but you have time to post endless rubbish about it. (I guess it goes faster when you don’t have to spend time thinking about what you say.) Look, the subject matter here is not that hard, but it’s not that easy either: it takes some actual effort if you want to understand it properly. If you don’t have time to actually learn about it, that’s your loss, but there’s no need to take it out on the rest of us.

    For one thing, why is it not front page news?

    For starters, something thousands of years old isn’t “news”. The fact is that this school of philosophy spread pervasively to become the foundation of western thought for centuries (including minor little intellectual offshoots such as the invention of science), at least for as long as every educated person learned philosophy. We’ve now reached a point where practically everyone who disputes it turns out to have little to no understanding of what it actually teaches. Unfortunately, we seem to live in an age where it is not considered necessary to understand something before attacking it.

    my feeling that I am the little boy in the crowd looking at Emperor Feser.

    I’m impressed. It’s not everyone who can pat himself on the back whilst sticking his head in the sand.

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  34. Matt Sheean writes: "[I]t seems the answer to your question, in any case, is yes."

    Good, so now that the last (irrelevant) obstacle has (again) been removed, we can expect Alan Fox's summary of the argument presented in Ed's video, which Alan now says he's "[s]ure" he can provide once he's assured that Ed hasn't accidentally presented Lord Russell's straw-man version.

    [crickets chirping]

    Hmm. Well, maybe after he gets back from his few days of gazpacho, paella, and sunshine.

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  35. "Premises are true or false; arguments are valid or invalid."

    Alan has evinced that same confusion elsewhere in this thread as well. He also referred earlier to an argument's being "derived from" premises, when it's of course conclusions that are thus derived.

    From anyone else I might think these were trivial verbal glitches. From him, though, they seem to be part of a pattern of elementary misunderstandings—though of course he himself might say that he just doesn't understand formal logic even though (evidence to the contrary notwithstanding) he's perfectly good at the common-sense sort.

    Mr. Green writes: "[I]t takes some actual effort if you want to understand it properly."

    Oh, I'm pretty sure he doesn't.

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  36. "... Ed hasn't accidentally presented Lord Russell's straw-man version."

    That would be quite a faux pas.

    I would like to see something like this in a summary of the first way, though:

    "For example, a teapot in orbiting the sun somewhere between Earth and Mars would be undergoing change..."



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  37. wow, that should have been:

    "a teapot in orbit of the sun somewhere between earth and mars..."

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  38. @dguller

    Except that in Platonic and Aristotelian thought, acts of intellect are immaterial, and thus can operate independently of matter.

    Perhaps so, but, in reality, show any act of intellect and one can show burned calories.

    But perhaps another more mundane example would be a painting that is perceived by someone does not change in the act of being perceived, because it remains physically the same, whether it is perceived or not.

    In your analogy, the painitng would be "pure act", I suppose.In this case, what exactly does the painting do?

    Well, the universe itself is expanding, and expansion is a change. Unless you mean something else by “universe”?

    Space is expanding, true, but space is a part of the universe, not the universe itself.

    There is no need to resolve a possible fallacy, but only an actual one.

    I think you are committing an actual one.

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  39. @Scott

    Hey, not so fast. ;-) The other possible reply to the Premise 4 objection is to argue that if a per se series appears to terminate in a first cause that is itself brought into being by accidental causes, then we haven't genuinely arrived at the first cause of the per se series after all.


    A accidentally causes B which essentially causes C which accidentally causes A, ad infinitum.

    A beginning in this example would be arbitrary.

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  40. @Bob:

    "A accidentally causes B which essentially causes C which accidentally causes A, ad infinitum."

    Nope. As I said, if A only accidentally causes B, then A is not the per se cause of B's present existence (and thus of its causal powers). But unless B's essence is also B's existence, then B does have such a cause and therefore is not the first element in the per se series.

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  41. @Scott

    But it is B that is the essential cause of C, not A that is the essential cause of B...to be clear.

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  42. @Scott,

    And there is no first cause in the series I allude to.

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  43. @Bob:

    Perhaps so, but, in reality, show any act of intellect and one can show burned calories.

    Not if the Platonic and Aristotelian arguments for the immateriality of intellect are sound.

    In your analogy, the painitng would be "pure act", I suppose.In this case, what exactly does the painting do?

    The painting hangs on a wall, emits photons, etc. The only point I wanted to make is that the painting does not change in the act of perception by a perceiving subject. It changes in a variety of other ways, of course.

    Space is expanding, true, but space is a part of the universe, not the universe itself.

    Space is changing, time is changing, energy is changing, matter is changing. Is the universe something other than space, time, energy and matter?

    I think you are committing an actual one.

    Now it only remains for you to demonstrate that your thought is true.

    But it is B that is the essential cause of C, not A that is the essential cause of B...to be clear.

    But Scott earlier mentioned the distinction between A causing B to come into existence and A causing B to remain in existence. A per accidens series can account for the former kind of efficient causation, but it cannot account for the latter kind of efficient causation, because only a per se series can account for the latter. So, although your infinite per accidens series would nicely account for how A, B and C came into existence, it would not account at all for how A, B and C remain in existence.

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  44. @dguller

    To the last. C remains in existence due to B and C accidentally causes A which accidentally causes B.

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  45. @Bob:

    dguller has already hit the main point, so I'll just add the following.

    "And there is no first cause in the series I allude to."

    Only because you've left it out. Again, whatever the A is that accidentally causes B, B also has a per se cause that you haven't included in your series.

    In other words, something other than A is required in order to account for B's present existence (and thus of course its present possession and exercise of causal powers). That series can't extend backward indefinitely, and so your series does in fact have a first (per se) cause even though you haven't explicitly listed it.

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  46. @Bob:

    C remains in existence due to B and C accidentally causes A which accidentally causes B

    On this account, C has an account of how it remains in existence, because B is a per se cause of C. However, A and B still do not have an account of what maintains them in existence. Simply saying that C is the per accidens cause of A, and that A is the per accidens cause of B, can certainly explain how A and B came into existence, but does not explain why they remain in existence. In order to explain that, you would have to appeal to per se causes of A and B, which we agree cannot proceed to infinity, and must terminate at some origin, which is self-explanatory.

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  47. @Matt Sheean:

    "That would be quite a faux pas."

    It would indeed. But Alan is quite clear* that he wants to be confident Ed hasn't committed that faux pas before he (Alan) summarizes Ed's argument. Go figure.

    ----

    * "Sure, but could I be assured that this is the definitive version of Feser's TCA, rather than one of the straw-man versions everyone from Bertrand Russell on has been attacking." That is, he wants to be "assured" that Ed hasn't presented a straw-man version of his very own argument.

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  48. Scott,

    At least he doesn't believe in the invisible form of Plato, like the rest of us dummies.

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  49. @Matt Sheean:

    Yes, his disbelief in invisible Platonic forms is certainly a sign of his superior smartitude.

    On the other hand, he's also stated his belief that essences and qualia are something he describes as "linguistic constructs." I suspect that if he ever tries to account for the existence of "linguistic constructs" without implicitly relying on invisible forms, he'll turn out to be every bit as big a dummy as the rest of us.

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  50. "if he ever tries to account for the existence of 'linguistic constructs' without implicitly relying on invisible forms, he'll turn out to be every bit as big a dummy as the rest of us."

    Alas, one can only have the requisite neural firing patterns for the desire that a certain state of affairs obtain.

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  51. @dguller

    Not if the Platonic and Aristotelian arguments for the immateriality of intellect are sound.

    Regardless, you show me an act of intellect and I will show you burned calories.

    The painting hangs on a wall, emits photons, etc. The only point I wanted to make is that the painting does not change in the act of perception by a perceiving subject. It changes in a variety of other ways, of course.

    The painting does absolutely nothing in this analogy, which was precisely my point with regards to pure act.

    Space is changing, time is changing, energy is changing, matter is changing. Is the universe something other than space, time, energy and matter?

    Space, time, energy and matter exist within the universe.


    On this account, C has an account of how it remains in existence, because B is a per se cause of C. However, A and B still do not have an account of what maintains them in existence.

    On the contrary. A happens because of C, B happens because of A and C happens because of B - with B to C being a per se series.

    I'll try an analogy (adding a D), which I admittedly suck at.

    A musician (Call her B) reads sheet music (call it A) plays her violin creating music (call it C) which inspires the composer (call her D) to continue to writing.

    Here we have:

    A accidentally causes B
    B per se causes C
    C accidentally causes D (maybe C is the per se cause of D, though it makes no difference for the purposes of this analogy).
    D accidentally causes A

    I do not see were "maintains them in existence" is even relevant, apart from the per se series above where the B maintains C.

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  52. @dguller

    " to continue to writing."

    Should read:

    "to continue writing sheet music."

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  53. Progress report. As Feser's video does not seem to contain anything in the way of visual aids, I have managed to listen to it once straight thorough via bluetooth headphones while being able to carry on with mundane tasks. I made a few notes but I'll need to run through it again with pauses to make notes.

    Or will i?

    I see Ed Feser has directed a comment at Vincent Torley on another thread where he writes:;

    Well, if I'd made reference to "Aristotle's proof," then that might be a worthwhile remark on your part. Since in fact what I spoke of was "an Aristotelian proof" -- and since, of course, many Aristotelians defend the essence/existence distinction -- your remarks is silly and pointless.

    See, this is your trouble, Vincent. You are only interested in scrambling to find a way, any way, to score a cheap point. What is amazing is not that you keep shooting yourself in the foot. That's entirely predictable. What is amazing is that you really seem to think that what you're hitting is your target.

    As to the other stuff you say about essence/existence:

    (a) Thanks for the lesson, but, you know, I think I might have heard all that before. Hmm, oh that's right... come to think of it, I've written on it before. See pp. 241-56 of Scholastic Metaphysics, if you can ever tear yourself away from the endless loop of that video lecture of mine you seem to be fixated on*.

    (b) I do not think one needs to argue for the essence/existence distinction in order to show that things require a sustaining cause. I think act/potency can do it by itself, for reasons I've given in places you keep refusing to turn your eyes to, lest you miss an exciting second of my video lecture. (See "Existential Inertia and the Five Ways" and Scholastic Metaphysics.)

    (c) Your straight-faced suggestion that I could have given the argument you sketch in less than a minute is either (i) evidence of a dry sense of humor on your part that I never expected, or (ii) completely insane. Had I presented such an argument -- which, of course, rests on all sorts of background assumptions that would need to be defended at length -- you would, of course, be presenting that as "evidence" of my lack of analytical ability, an argument that has holes you could drive a truck through, etc. etc


    *My emphasis.

    Reference is made to part two!!!

    (@ Crude

    I'm reminded of Mike Gene', his "The Design Matrix" and his promise to include the evidence for his "theory" in part two :) )

    Do we have a goalpost move here?

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  54. Scot writes:

    Yes, his disbelief in invisible Platonic forms is certainly a sign of his superior smartitude.

    If you want to paraphrase a provisional assumption of mine you'd do better to use "imaginary" rather than "invisible". There's plenty of stuff we can't see. Our imagination is not so limited. Now, I'm imagining a huge superior, though somewhat smoke-blackened, pot with a Disney-style animated face that has more than a passing resemblance to someone's cute avatar.

    On the other hand, he's also stated his belief that essences and qualia are something he describes as "linguistic constructs." I suspect that if he ever tries to account for the existence of "linguistic constructs" without implicitly relying on invisible forms, he'll turn out to be every bit as big a dummy as the rest of us.

    I'm a pragmatist who likes what he has read of Rorty, so far. I'll run through the video again when I have a couple of hours to spare. Is there a link to part two?

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  55. @Bob:

    "Here we have:

    A accidentally causes B
    B per se causes C
    C accidentally causes D (maybe C is the per se cause of D, though it makes no difference for the purposes of this analogy).
    D accidentally causes A

    I do not see [where] 'maintains them in existence' is even relevant, apart from the per se series above where the B maintains C."

    Of course not, because A doesn't maintain B in existence, C (arguably) doesn't maintain D in existence, and D doesn't maintain A in existence. No one is denying that there can be accidental causes and causal series at all.

    What we're saying is that in order for such series to exist, there still has to be, for each member, something that maintains that member in existence. A doesn't maintain B in existence? Fine. But something must, even if it isn't A (just as something now maintains me in existence even if it isn't the parents who account for the secondary causal process of my coming into being).

    And that means B isn't really the first element of the per se causal series that includes B and C. Some other cause precedes it in that series—not A, but something else.

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  56. @Allen Fochs:

    "Reference is made to part two!!!…Is there a link to part two?"

    Where in the world do you think you see this imaginary/invisible reference to a second part of Ed's video lecture?

    Are you misreading Ed's remark that Vincent appears not to want to "miss an exciting second of my video lecture"?

    -Scot

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  57. @Scott

    Of course not, because A doesn't maintain B in existence, C (arguably) doesn't maintain D in existence, and D doesn't maintain A in existence. No one is denying that there can be accidental causes and causal series at all.

    A Doesn't need to maintain B in existence, it merely needs to cause B.

    What we're saying is that in order for such series to exist, there still has to be, for each member, something that maintains that member in existence.

    The Conservation of Mass would seem to disagree.

    And that means B isn't really the first element of the per se causal series that includes B and C. Some other cause precedes it in that series—not A, but something else.

    Well no. A is the cause of B in this chain.

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  58. Are you misreading Ed's remark that Vincent appears not to want to "miss an exciting second of my video lecture"?

    Yes!

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  59. @Bob:

    Regardless, you show me an act of intellect and I will show you burned calories.

    What about a disembodied act of intellect? What calories are being burned?

    The painting does absolutely nothing in this analogy, which was precisely my point with regards to pure act.

    The painting is existing, and thus is necessarily doing “something”. To exist is to act in some way.

    Space, time, energy and matter exist within the universe.

    So, if one removed space, time, energy and matter, then one would still have the universe?

    On the contrary. A happens because of C, B happens because of A and C happens because of B - with B to C being a per se series.

    But you are equivocating when you say that something “happens because of” something else. There are different kinds of “happens” involved: (a) X happens to come into existence because of Y, and (b) X happens to remain in existence because of Y. The former (i.e. happens(a)) is consistent with a per accidens series, and the latter (i.e. happens(b)) is consistent with a per se series. So, what you are saying is that A happens(a) because of C, B happens(a) because of A, and C happens(b) because of B. But that fails to explain how A and B happens(b), which his the precise issue here.

    A musician (Call her B) reads sheet music (call it A) plays her violin creating music (call it C) which inspires the composer (call her D) to continue writing sheet music.

    A accidentally causes B

    Okay. I think you mean that the musician can continue to exist as a musician, even in the absence of the sheet music.

    B per se causes C

    A musician per se causes the music via the musical instrument. That’s fine. It is per se, because without the musician playing the instrument, there would be no music playing.

    C accidentally causes D (maybe C is the per se cause of D, though it makes no difference for the purposes of this analogy).

    The music inspires the composer to write more sheet music, which is fine, because the composer can continue writing the sheet music, even when the music has stopped.

    D accidentally causes A

    This is true, because the sheet music can continue to exist even in the absence of the composer.

    I do not see were "maintains them in existence" is even relevant, apart from the per se series above where the B maintains C.

    Because you still haven’t given an account of how the musician and the composer remain in existence to contribute to the per se series that culminates in the playing of the music on the instrument. So, the musician uses the composition and the musical instrument as tools to produce the music, and the ultimate causal efficacy is derived from the musician, because the composer can be gone, and yet the music can still be played. Your account explains where musical composition came from, i.e. via a per accidens series originating in the composer, but it utterly fails to account for how the musician, the musical composition, and the musical instrument remain in existence, which was the precise point at hand, as stated by Scott above.

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  60. @dguller

    What about a disembodied act of intellect? What calories are being burned?

    I do not know what a "disembodied act of intellect" is. How exactly would this work?

    The painting is existing, and thus is necessarily doing “something”. To exist is to act in some way.

    Perhaps something must have the potential to exist from moment to moment and something without such a potential will necessarily cease to exist from one moment to the next - or maybe the word existence shouldn't be used in such a way.

    So, if one removed space, time, energy and matter, then one would still have the universe?

    Sure, just one devoid of space, time, matter and energy. Krauss describes just such a state, if memory serves.

    But that fails to explain how A and B happens(b), which his the precise issue here.

    Obviously, A happens because of C and B happens because of A..."remain in existence" is irrelevant, since A and C are accidental.

    Because you still haven’t given an account of how the musician and the composer remain in existence to contribute to the per se series that culminates in the playing of the music on the instrument.

    I could simply posit that nothing causes them to go out of existence, if you insist on this, in my view irrelevant, "remain in existence" argument.

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  61. @Bob:

    dguller has this covered in his post just above (and I've addressed it before myself), so just a quick comment here:

    "A Doesn't need to maintain B in existence, it merely needs to cause B."

    I understand that. However, what we're saying is that something has to maintain B in existence, and if it isn't A, then you haven't found it yet.

    You seem to be assuming without argument that once something exists, no causation is required in order for to continue to exist. But of course that's precisely the point on which we (and at least the mainstream of Scholastic philosophy) disagree with you.

    "The Conservation of Mass would seem to disagree."

    Conservation laws, in and of themselves, are utterly silent on this question. Such laws neither tell us nor purport to tell us even whether any external causal agency is involved in such conservation, let alone what it might be. They just state that thus-and-such is in fact conserved.

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  62. @Bob:

    "Obviously, A happens because of C and B happens because of A[.]"

    Sigh. And after dguller went to all that trouble to distinguish "happens(a)" from "happens(b)". [shakes head]

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  63. (Oops. "You seem to be assuming without argument that once something exists, no causation is required in order for it to continue to exist."

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  64. @Scott

    You seem to be assuming without argument that once something exists, no causation is required in order for it to continue to exist.

    I see no need to make such an assumption.

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  65. Bob,

    It is difficult for me to see why you do not see how it is impossible for an accidental cause of something to be a satisfactory account of its existence period. Consider this, if you will: my parents are the accidental cause both of my daughter and of the toast I made this morning.

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  66. Alan, your cognitive architecture seems to be wired for tendentiousness. It is strange to say a proper characterization of your stance on Platonic forms is that you do not believe in any "imaginary" such forms (rather than invisible), since that is exactly what you do believe in, i.e. the imaginary concept of universal natures entertained by others you deem to be stuck in fantasy-land. I'd hope we can agree that there exists a place in fiction called "Middle Earth" and that there exists a fictional man called "Sherlock Holmes", and so on. We here, however, would say that the forms are invisible in principle, that is to say incorporeal, as opposed to merely imaginary, and it is that picture of reality that you are denying.

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  67. @Bob:

    I do not know what a "disembodied act of intellect" is. How exactly would this work?

    An intellect that operates independently of a body.

    Sure, just one devoid of space, time, matter and energy. Krauss describes just such a state, if memory serves.

    I’m pretty sure that Krauss never described a universe independent of space, time, matter and energy. His idea of absolute nothingness was space that contained “a boiling bubbling brew of virtual particles, popping in and out of existence in a time so short that we cannot detect them directly”.

    Obviously, A happens because of C and B happens because of A..."remain in existence" is irrelevant, since A and C are accidental.

    You’re still equivocating between happens(a) and happens(b).

    I could simply posit that nothing causes them to go out of existence, if you insist on this, in my view irrelevant, "remain in existence" argument.

    The issue is that there is a real distinction between a thing’s essence (i.e. what it is) and a thing’s existence (i.e. that it is). Since they are really distinct, they do not necessarily go together, and thus require something else to put and keep them together, as it were. That’s just a fancy way of saying that contingent beings require some explanation outside of themselves to account for their coming into existence and remaining in existence, because they themselves can account for neither.

    I see no need to make such an assumption.

    But it’s not an assumption. It’s an implication of the contingency of composite beings. Again, if X is a composite being, then its essence is distinct from its existence, which means that there is nothing about X itself that brings its essence into existence, but rather something else must be postulated to account for its existence. That account must include both its coming into existence, as well as its remaining in existence, because even after X comes into existence, its essence still lacks a necessary connection with its existence, because there is a real distinction between them, and thus it still requires something other than X to unite its essence and existence together.

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  68. Me: "You seem to be assuming without argument that once something exists, no causation is required in order for it to continue to exist."

    Bob: "I see no need to make such an assumption."

    dguller: "But it’s not an assumption. It’s an implication of the contingency of composite beings."

    I'm confused about which assumption Bob says he isn't making.

    The one I stated was that once something exists, no further causation is required in order to maintain it in existence. He says he sees no need for such an assumption.

    But dguller takes Bob to be talking about the "assumption" that something in existence does require a sustaining cause. I suspect that dguller's reading is correct and that that's what Bob took me to mean.

    If that's not what Bob took me to mean, then I'm puzzled, because he does seem to me very clearly to be making the assumption I did state.

    Bob, can you confirm or deny?

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  69. Scott:

    I think I misspoke. The proposition that Bob has "no need" for is the proposition P that once X comes into existence, X requires a sustaining cause to maintain its existence.

    My only critique was that P is not an "assumption", but rather the conclusion of an argument.

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  70. @dguller:

    "I think I misspoke. The proposition that Bob has 'no need' for is the proposition P that once X comes into existence, X requires a sustaining cause to maintain its existence."

    I think you're absolutely right, and I don't think you misspoke. The problem is that that's the precise opposite of the assumption I said Bob was making—namely, that once something exists, it doesn't need a sustaining cause. I think he took me to mean your proposition—understandably enough, as my wording of it was a bit cumbersome.

    "My only critique was that P is not an 'assumption', but rather the conclusion of an argument."

    I agree with that too, of course (and incidentally that's why I put "assumption" in scare quotes in the sixth paragraph of my previous post).

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  71. @dguller

    An intellect that operates independently of a body.

    I understand what the words mean in the way I understand what the Star Trek transporter is supposed to be able to do. I am asking you how a disembodied intellect actually works - explain it.

    You’re still equivocating between happens(a) and happens(b).

    No, without your suppositions, I am not equivocating. I have set up a chain of combined per accidens and (arguably) per se causes, the question I am concerned with is whether or not it is per se impossible for such a chain to go to infinity.

    Once again:

    A per accidens causes B which per se causes C which per accidens causes A.


    Please provide me with a sound deductive argument as to why this type of causal chain is per se impossible.

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  72. @dguller

    Please provide me with a sound deductive argument as to why this type of causal chain is per se impossible.

    Should be:

    Please provide me with a sound deductive argument as to why this type of causal chain going to infinity is per se impossible.

    That is what is needed for the original objection I made.

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  73. Bob: I am asking you how a disembodied intellect actually works - explain it.

    That’s simple: it works by grasping a form in an intellectual mode (as opposed to a material mode, of course).

    A per accidens causes B which per se causes C which per accidens causes A.
    Please provide me with a sound deductive argument as to why this type of causal chain going to infinity is per se impossible.


    I lost track of what that argument was supposed to be for. (It not only mixes per se and per accidens causes, but it’s circular, so the whole thing is rather confusing.) But I don’t think whether a series “can” be infinite really matters much. What is Aquinas is saying is that you can’t make a per se series work by extending it to infinity. It might be possible to have such an infinite series anyway, but that wouldn’t solve the problem (i.e. there would have to be a first cause involved somewhere else in the picture.)

    Here’s an example: you want to paint a wall blue, but all you have is tins of red paint. Aquinas says, it can’t be done. You reply that you actually have lots of different cans of red paint: dark red, light red, etc., etc. Aquinas says sorry, you can’t paint a wall blue with red paint. But (you object) you in fact have an infinite number of shades of red paint! It’s still impossible — not because you couldn’t have an infinite number of tins of paint (I mean, I don’t know how you could pay for them all, but even just assuming it’s possible for the sake of argument) — but because infinite red paint just won’t make a wall blue. It’s the same thing here: even if there is some sort of infinite causal chain that fits the scenario, if we need a per se cause to get the effect we’re interested in, then per accidens causes simply do not fit the bill, not even if we could have an infinity of them.

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  74. @Bob:

    I understand what the words mean in the way I understand what the Star Trek transporter is supposed to be able to do. I am asking you how a disembodied intellect actually works - explain it.

    If you are looking for a mechanical account of how a disembodied intellect operates, then I can’t provide one. However, it does not follow that a disembodied intellect is impossible, and if there are sound arguments for the immateriality of intellect itself, then there is no reason why the intellect would necessarily have to be associated with any material process that would burn calories.

    No, without your suppositions, I am not equivocating. I have set up a chain of combined per accidens and (arguably) per se causes, the question I am concerned with is whether or not it is per se impossible for such a chain to go to infinity.

    But the chain that you have provided requires two kinds of efficient causes to account for the members’ existence: (1) that which causes a member of the chain to come into existence, and (2) that which causes a member of the chain to remain in existence. In other words, A, B and C all require a cause(1) and a cause(2). If your account fails to account for what causes(1) and causes(2) any particular member of the chain, then your account is fundamentally incomplete.

    A per accidens causes B which per se causes C which per accidens causes A.

    Let’s break this down:

    (1) A causes B to come into existence
    (2) B causes C to remain in existence
    (3) C causes A to come into existence

    What is missing from this account is the following:

    (4) That which causes B to remain in existence
    (5) That which causes A to remain in existence
    (6) That which causes C to come into existence

    Perhaps you can say that (6) is answered by B, which both causes C to come into existence and remain in existence, which is fine. But that still leaves (4) and (5) unanswered, because cause(1) and cause(2) are distinct causes, and both must be accounted for in your scenario. After all, after A brings B into existence, why does B remain in existence? Why didn’t B disappear into nothingness once A is no longer present to exert its causal influence? And the same applies to A, as well, which requires some explanation for why it remains in existence after C is no longer present to exert its causal influence upon A.

    And I’ve already provided an argument for why A and B require an efficient cause(2) over and above their efficient cause(1). If A (or B) is a contingent being, then A’s essence does not necessarily imply A’s existence. That is why A could possibly not exist. If A’s essence did necessarily imply A’s existence, then A would necessarily have to exist. Therefore, A itself cannot account for A’s existence, and thus A’s existence must be accounted for by something other than A.

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  75. @dguller

    if there are sound arguments for the immateriality of intellect itself, then there is no reason why the intellect would necessarily have to be associated with any material process that would burn calories.

    I do not see how it is possible to create a "sound" argument for the immateriality of an intellect. Perhaps you mean that you can supply premises that may not be able to be falsified based on current understanding? That is much different from the premises being true.

    (1) that which causes a member of the chain to come into existence, and (2) that which causes a member of the chain to remain in existence.

    A causes B to come into existence (per accidens)
    B causes C to remain in existence (per se)
    C causes A to come into existence (per accidens)

    I do not get your objection, as the chain does not have a "beginning", yet all causes are accounted for.

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  76. @dguller

    Therefore, A itself cannot account for A’s existence, and thus A’s existence must be accounted for by something other than A.


    A does not account for A's existence, C accounts for A's existence.

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  77. @Bob:

    I do not see how it is possible to create a "sound" argument for the immateriality of an intellect. Perhaps you mean that you can supply premises that may not be able to be falsified based on current understanding? That is much different from the premises being true.

    Feser makes one such argument here: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.ca/2013/10/oerter-and-indeterminacy-of-physical.html

    I do not get your objection, as the chain does not have a "beginning", yet all causes are accounted for.

    But all causes are not accounted for. I specifically described in (4) to (6) which causes are absent from your account. By definition, if some causes are absent from your account, then it is impossible that all causes are accounted for.

    A does not account for A's existence, C accounts for A's existence.

    C only accounts for the onset of A’s existence. C does not account for A’s ongoing existence. Therefore, C is, at best, a partial account of A’s existence, but there is a missing cause(s) that is actually essential to this argument.

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  78. @dguller

    C only accounts for the onset of A’s existence. C does not account for A’s ongoing existence. Therefore, C is, at best, a partial account of A’s existence, but there is a missing cause(s) that is actually essential to this argument.

    Why does A need to remain in existence?

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  79. Mr. Green: "I lost track of what that argument was supposed to be for."

    Here's the relevant bit from earlier in the thread:

    dguller: "(4) an actual infinite per se causal series is impossible."

    Bob: "Premise 4 seems to ignore the possibility of an accidental -> per se type of series and seems to be based on a false dichotomy of either accident or per se."

    As I understand it, Bob is trying to refute dguller's claim that a per se series can't extend infinitely backward, and he's doing it by constructing a proposed "counterexample" that isn't a per se series in the first place.

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  80. @Scott

    As I understand it, Bob is trying to refute dguller's claim that a per se series can't extend infinitely backward, and he's doing it by constructing a proposed "counterexample" that isn't a per se series in the first place.

    Not quite.

    A per accidens causes B.

    B's only potential is to cause C to exist, in other words B becomes fully actualized when caused by A and A is accidentally caused by C which itself can only exist while sustained by B.

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  81. @Bob:

    Why does A need to remain in existence?

    Because there is nothing about A itself that necessarily implies A’s coming to exist or remaining in existence, and thus A would depend upon something else to cause it to come into existence and remain in existence. Only that which necessarily exists can remain in existence without requiring an extrinsic efficient cause of some kind.

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  82. @dguller

    Because there is nothing about A itself that necessarily implies A’s coming to exist or remaining in existence, and thus A would depend upon something else to cause it to come into existence and remain in existence. Only that which necessarily exists can remain in existence without requiring an extrinsic efficient cause of some kind.

    And that something else that causes A to come into existence is C.

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  83. @Bob:

    A per accidens causes B.

    B's only potential is to cause C to exist, in other words B becomes fully actualized when caused by A and A is accidentally caused by C which itself can only exist while sustained by B.


    To say that “A per accidens causes B” just means that A causes B to come into existence and B can continue to exist, even in the absence of A. But if B does not necessarily exist in the first place, which would preclude the need for A to cause B to come into existence at all, then when B disappears, then B requires an external efficient cause to maintain B in existence. That is precisely what is missing in your account. The only way for your argument to work is if you have a good reason to deny that a contingently existing B, which is brought into existence by A, can continue to exist all by itself. But why would it continue to exist without any external support if there is nothing about B itself that is keeping it in existence? If there was something about B that would keep it in existence, then it would be a necessary being in the first place.

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  84. @dguller

    Why does B need to remain in existence? All B needs to do is cause C.

    You seem to be trying to jam a necessary being in here...something that is unnecessary in this chain.

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  86. @Bob:

    And that something else that causes A to come into existence is C.

    But again, although C can cause A to come into existence, C is powerless to cause A to remain in existence. Since what causes A to remain in existence is an essential part of the account of A, the fact that your account is silent on this part means that your account is incomplete.

    Why does B need to remain in existence? All B needs to do is cause C.

    I see the confusion.

    Let’s return to your statements:

    (a) A causes B to come into existence (per accidens)
    (b) B causes C to remain in existence (per se)
    (c) C causes A to come into existence (per accidens)

    In (a), A causes B to come into existence, and then A is gone, while B remains in existence. After all, that is precisely what a per accidens causal series is, i.e. the effect continues to operate in the absence of the initiating cause. So, at this point, we have B operating in the absence of A.

    In (b), you suddenly introduce C. Where did C come from? It could not exist before B came into existence, because it is precisely B that is sustaining C in existence in a per se causal series. But we can just assume that B causes C to come into existence and remain in existence. So, C can only exist in the presence of B.

    In (c), C is then used as an instrument by B to bring A into existence, because C has no intrinsic power, and whatever power it has is derived from B.

    The problem with this causal series is that you have not explained how B can remain in existence to use C as an instrument to bring A into existence. B cannot explain how B remains in existence, because B is a contingent being, and A cannot explain how B remains in existence, because A is gone, and thus is no longer exerting any causal influence upon B. And C cannot account for how B remains in existence, because C is the effect of B, and an effect cannot explain its cause, but rather vice versa. So, something other than A, B and C must account for how B remains in existence.

    Similarly, you have not explained how A can remain in existence in order to bring B into existence. Again, B cannot keep A in existence, because B is no longer present to have a causal influence upon A at all; C cannot keep A in existence, because C has no intrinsic causal power itself and is simply being used as an instrument by B; and A cannot keep itself in existence. So, neither A, B nor C can account for how A can remain in existence.

    The ultimate conclusion is that something other than A, B and C must be included in your account in order for it to work at all.

    In fact, you can do away with C altogether, and just say that A causes B to come into existence, and then B causes A to come into existence. But then your series is still stuck with the problem with how A and B remain in existence to cause each other to come into existence. After all, if they can remain in existence once they come into existence, then why do they need each other to further bring each other into existence at all?

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  87. @dguller

    In (a), A causes B to come into existence, and then A is gone, while B remains in existence.

    Not necessarily. There is no need for B to remain when A is gone, or it could remain when A is gone (in fact, I am a bit averse to the idea of things popping out of existence, or even popping into existence for that matter, but I am putting that issue aside for the moment.)

    In (b), you suddenly introduce C. Where did C come from? It could not exist before B came into existence, because it is precisely B that is sustaining C in existence in a per se causal series. But we can just assume that B causes C to come into existence and remain in existence. So, C can only exist in the presence of B.

    B 'per se'causes C (The music emmanating from the played violin...)

    In (c), C is then used as an instrument by B to bring A into existence, because C has no intrinsic power, and whatever power it has is derived from B.

    Okay.

    The problem with this causal series is that you have not explained how B can remain in existence to use C as an instrument to bring A into existence.

    Apart from my parenthetical objection above, I am not seeing the issue. Are you adding temporality to the chain, as in A and then B and then C and then A? I don't recall bringing in temporality, having put aside the obvious issue of things popping in and out of existence.

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  88. @Bob:

    Not necessarily. There is no need for B to remain when A is gone, or it could remain when A is gone (in fact, I am a bit averse to the idea of things popping out of existence, or even popping into existence for that matter, but I am putting that issue aside for the moment.)

    The point is that the presence of A is not necessary for B to remain in existence, because B remains in existence, even after A is no longer present. That is the essence of a per accidens causal series.

    B 'per se'causes C (The music emmanating from the played violin...)

    So, in this case, B both causes C to come into existence and remain in existence, which is fine.

    Apart from my parenthetical objection above, I am not seeing the issue.

    The issue is that by definition, a per accidens causal series in which A causes B is such that B can continue to exist even if A is no longer present. If B can continue to exist in the absence of A, then A cannot cause B to remain in existence. Something else must do so. So, when you postulate a per accidens series to account for why something remains in existence, then you are necessarily asking the impossible. After all, if X can do P in the absence of Y, then Y is not necessary for X to do P at all.

    Are you adding temporality to the chain, as in A and then B and then C and then A? I don't recall bringing in temporality, having put aside the obvious issue of things popping in and out of existence.

    Temporality is not necessarily relevant here, although there is a kind of unfolding process involved. The main issue is that no per accidens series can account for the ongoing existence of the members of the series, and that if your causal account is missing certain essential ingredients, then your account cannot be complete. And I think that it has been demonstrated to you that your account is missing essential per se causal chains that account for the ongoing existence of some members of your causal series.

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  89. @Bob:

    Are you trying to argue that in your proposed example, B causes itself via a per se series of instrumental causes (C, A, and perhaps infinitely many other intermediate causes)?

    If so, then your example isn't a counterexample at all (even assuming it's coherent, which I don't think it is). B stands quite unambiguously at the head of that series, no matter how far it's extended.

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  90. I have a little time this evening so:

    Dr Feser has himself indicated that his video presentation of "First Way" is not the best source for his knock-down TCA;

    Having tried to listen to it again, it does seem so simplified for the intended audience plus it is tedious to transcribe that I'm going to bypass the opportunity and have purchased Scholastic Metphysics. I presume, as Feser has recommended this book to Vincent Torley, it will contain the definitive version of TCA.

    I'll probably post a review on Amazon though don't hold your breath as shipping is quoted as "delivery estimate: September 24, 2014 - October 15, 2014".

    In the meantime, I see Feser also suggests his article here. I(m disinclined to spend another twenty dollars, but maybe someone has a PDF copy available.

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  91. Matt Sheean

    Alan, your cognitive architecture seems to be wired for tendentiousness.

    You may well be right. I am sure there is variation in how humans respond to authority. I recall, as a child, often wondering why adults could be so damned snappy when asked a simple question.

    It is strange to say a proper characterization of your stance on Platonic forms is that you do not believe in any "imaginary" such forms (rather than invisible), since that is exactly what you do believe in, i.e. the imaginary concept of universal natures entertained by others you deem to be stuck in fantasy-land.

    I don't have a stance on Platonic forms other than not thinking the concept has much to do with reality. It seems to fail the "Is it useful?" test.

    I'd hope we can agree that there exists a place in fiction called "Middle Earth" and that there exists a fictional man called "Sherlock Holmes", and so on. We here, however, would say that the forms are invisible in principle, that is to say incorporeal, as opposed to merely imaginary, and it is that picture of reality that you are denying.

    Questioning, not denying. I always allow some room for uncertainty. No, I don't agree with what you say here. I define reality as all that we can perceive, detect, observe, however indirectly. I define the imaginary as not real. So "existing in a fictional place" is an oxymoron. Of course works of fiction exist. Many calories have been burnt in the mental effort in producing them. But I am sorry to inform you that Middle Earth is indeed imaginary. (Though a close approximation can be had here.

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  92. @Alan Fox:

    "I presume, as Feser has recommended this book to Vincent Torley, it will contain the definitive version of TCA."

    Sorry to disappoint you, but as so often, you presume incorrectly. That's not what Ed was referring Vincent to that book for.

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  93. @Alan Fox:

    By the way, I also seem to have missed your explanation of why you're unwilling/unable to summarize any version of the cosmological argument that isn't "definitive."

    (Just kidding. I'm not holding my breath waiting for you to come through with a summary of any version of the cosmological argument, and I doubt others are holding theirs.)

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  94. Sorry to disappoint you, but as so often, you presume incorrectly. That's not what Ed was referring Vincent to that book for.

    Why do I suspect that cherubic little face is not sorry at all. Thirty dollars down the drain.

    à Vincent

    I can send you that book Feser told you to buy.

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  95. I also seem to have missed your explanation of why you're unwilling/unable to summarize any version of the cosmological argument that isn't "definitive."

    Do we have a candidate for TCA yet? The kiddie's lecture on video? is that it?

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  96. @Alan Fox:

    "Do we have a candidate for TCA yet? The kiddie's lecture on video? is that it?"

    The original challenge was for you to summarize any version you think you understand and tell us which of its premises you reject and why.

    But if the one in Ed's video is the only version you think you understand, then sure, go for it.

    Of course that would also imply that when you were originally airing your criticisms of the cosmological argument before watching that video, you must not have understood any version of it. But I think that ship sailed a while back.

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  97. "Of course works of fiction exist."

    yes. yes they do. My point, which seems to have been lost on you, is that what is at issue with respect to God, the forms, and suchlike is whether they are fictional, imaginary etc. Simply calling them imaginary hardly suffices to edge them out of what you like to call "reality." I dare say that you have been shown quite a lot of charity here, and I hope you appreciate that.

    "Why do I suspect that cherubic little face is not sorry at all. Thirty dollars down the drain."

    In "reality" a dude tends to look like a real dummy when he spends $30 rather than just interacting with the folks he has been dialoguing with at the moment who have provided him with free resources with which to engage them.

    But, please, by all means, summarize that "kiddie" lecture. It should be easy for you if it's just for the kiddies.

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  98. Matt Sheean writes:

    My point, which seems to have been lost on you, is that what is at issue with respect to God, the forms, and suchlike is whether they are fictional, imaginary etc.

    My null hypothesis is that "God" is fictional. There is apparently the Thomist Cosmological Argument which refutes that null hypothesis. I'm sceptical. The talk in the video falls a long way short of such an earth-shattering claim. I will, if I'm spared, get around to questioning the assumptions in it as Scott has confirmed that thi is indeed the definitive TCA (or has he and has he the authority for such declarations?)


    Simply calling them imaginary hardly suffices to edge them out of what you like to call "reality."

    Tis so! Show me the evidence for "essence" "potency" "actuality" "God" etc.

    I dare say that you have been shown quite a lot of charity here, and I hope you appreciate that.

    It's still cost me thirty dollars. I wonder why no one has said it is worth buying anyway, even without a TCA.

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  99. Alan,

    "Tis so! Show me the evidence for "essence" "potency" "actuality" "God" etc."

    Well, Scholastic Metaphysics should be helpful there, so you haven't wasted your hard earned money. I would provide you with some evidence here, but I will refrain, since experience shows that this would not be conducive to frugality on your part.

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  100. Alan Fox writes: "Scott has confirmed that [this] is indeed the definitive TCA[.]"

    I have?

    Must have been somewhere near the reference to a second part of Ed's video lecture.

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  101. "It's still cost me thirty dollars. I wonder why no one has said it is worth buying anyway, even without a TCA."

    I would like to highlight the fact that it Alan here, in response to my comment that everyone has been quite nice to him all things considered, seems to be blaming the commenters here for the loss of $30.

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  103. @Scott

    Are you trying to argue that in your proposed example, B causes itself via a per se series of instrumental causes (C, A, and perhaps infinitely many other intermediate causes)?

    If so, then your example isn't a counterexample at all (even assuming it's coherent, which I don't think it is). B stands quite unambiguously at the head of that series, no matter how far it's extended.



    Suppose, for example, that a composer began to write a piece of music but didn't finish it.

    A musician plays the unfinished piece of music.

    A seperate composer, hearing the music is inspired to write, which the musician continues to play, which inspires a separate composer to write, etc...

    I suppose you could say that the composers depend on the musician to continue writing, but what about the initial composer, long gone and forgotten, that started the chain of events?

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  104. @dguller

    I think we are experiencing a significant clash of underlying assumptions, so I am going to break this down and will do my best to be as clear as possible.

    The issue is that by definition, a per accidens causal series in which A causes B is such that B can continue to exist even if A is no longer present.

    I get that.


    If B can continue to exist in the absence of A, then A cannot cause B to remain in existence. Something else must do so.

    Right, A does not cause B to remain in existence. B remains in existence all on it's own as nothing causes the existence of B to terminate once caused by A.

    The bolded bit above is, obviously, where we part company. I do not understand why anything is necessarily required to keep something already in existence - in existence.

    So, when you postulate a per accidens series to account for why something remains in existence, then you are necessarily asking the impossible.

    I never postulated a per accidens series to account for any such thing, or at least never intended to do so since I do not think that anything is required to keep an existing thing in existence.

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  106. @Mr. Green:

    "But I don’t think whether a series “can” be infinite really matters much."

    Me either. I will not give a tighter logical defense for this claim; instead, I will offer some exegetical proof that Aristotle and Aquinas believed likewise. Caveat: since I am far from being an expert or even knowledgeable, and exegesis is a notorious mine field, take everything I say with a grain of salt.

    Lifted from Patterson Brown's "Infinite Causal Regression", Phil. Review, vol. 75, no. 4, pgs. 510-526 (1966). At the beginning of the first section, he lifts this quote on Causation from Aristotle's "Metaphysics", which I reproduce as in here:

    "But evidently there is a first principle, and the causes of things are neither an infinite series nor infinitely various in kind. For neither can one thing proceed from another, as from matter, ad infinitum (e.g. flesh from earth, earth from air, air from fire, and so on without stopping), nor can the sources of movement form an endless series (man for instance being acted on by air, air by the sun, the sun by Strife, and so on without limit). Similarly the final causes cannot go on ad infinitum,-walking being for the sake of health, this for the sake of happiness, happiness for the sake of something else, and so one thing always for the sake of another. And the case of the essence is similar. For in the case of intermediates, which have a last term and a term prior to them, the prior must be the cause of the later terms. For if we had to say which of the three is the cause, we should say the first; surely not the last, for the final term is the cause of none; nor even the intermediate, for it is the cause only of one. (It makes no difference whether there is one intermediate or more, nor whether they are infinite or finite in number.) But of series which are infinite in this way, and of the infinite in general, all the parts down to that now present are alike intermediates; so that if there is no first there is no cause at all."

    The parenthetical remark is all too clear, methinks.

    As for St. Thomas, commentaing this very passage in the Commentary on The Metaphysics, Book II, Lesson 3, Commentary #303 we can read:

    "And lest someone should think that an intermediate is followed by only one thing, i.e., what is last (for this occurs only when there is a single thing between two extremes), in order to exclude this interpretation he adds that it makes no difference to the premise given above whether there is only one intermediate or several, because all intermediates are taken together as one insofar as they have in common the character of an intermediate. Nor again does it make any difference whether there are a finite or infinite number of intermediates, because so long as they have the nature of an intermediate they cannot be the first cause of motion. Further, since there must be a first cause of motion prior to every secondary cause of motion, then there must be a first cause prior to every intermediate cause, which is not an intermediate in any sense, as though it had a cause prior to itself. But if we were to hold that there is an infinite series of moving causes in the above way, then all causes would be intermediate ones. Thus we would have to say without qualification that all parts of any infinite thing, whether of a series of causes or of continuous quantities, are intermediate ones; for if there were a part that was not an intermediate one, it would have to be either a first or a last; and both of these are opposed to the nature of the infinite, which excludes every limit, whether it be a starting-point or a terminus."

    Once again, but with the previous caveat in mind, it seems all too clear.

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  107. @Bob:

    Right, A does not cause B to remain in existence. B remains in existence all on it's own as nothing causes the existence of B to terminate once caused by A.

    The bolded bit above is, obviously, where we part company. I do not understand why anything is necessarily required to keep something already in existence - in existence.


    Because there is nothing about B itself that would explain why it remains in existence. Only that which necessarily exists is self-explanatory, and thus anything that only contingently exists requires something other than itself to explain its existence.

    Ultimately, this is a disagreement about existential conversation versus existential inertia. I know that Feser has a paper on the subject that purports to answer the objections to existential conservation, but I haven’t read it. So, if existential conservation is a stronger position than existential inertia, then it would seem that B would require something else to keep it in existence. I’ll have to defer to people who know more about this subject than myself to make the case, though.

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  108. @dguller:

    "I’ll have to defer to people who know more about this subject than myself to make the case, though."

    I don't think I qualify, but the basic case is surprisingly easy to make. It follows pretty much immediately from the (itself intuitively obvious) Scholastic principle that "everything that has being has it from itself or from another."

    If something has being "from itself," then it exists by virtue of its own nature. In that case it can't not exist. Otherwise, its nature isn't sufficient to account for its existence, and it therefore has no more power to maintain itself in existence than it does to bring itself into existence in the first place. In that case there must be something else that accounts for its continued existence. Q.E.D.

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  109. @Scott

    I don't think I qualify, but the basic case is surprisingly easy to make. It follows pretty much immediately from the (itself intuitively obvious) Scholastic principle that "everything that has being has it from itself or from another."

    If something has being "from itself," then it exists by virtue of its own nature. In that case it can't not exist. Otherwise, its nature isn't sufficient to account for its existence, and it therefore has no more power to maintain itself in existence than it does to bring itself into existence in the first place. In that case there must be something else that accounts for its continued existence. Q.E.D.


    Using such a principle, I would say that as matter/energy can neither be created, nor destroyed - that matter/energy, as far as anyone has ever been able to show, must exist "by virtue of its own nature".

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  110. @Bob:

    " I would say that as matter/energy can neither be created, nor destroyed - that matter/energy, as far as anyone has ever been able to show, must exist "by virtue of its own nature"."

    Yes, you could say such an obviously wrong thing (hint: as far as anyone knows *all* matter/energy is corruptible, you are probably just confused about what conservation of energy means).

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  111. @grodriguez

    Yes, you could say such an obviously wrong thing (hint: as far as anyone knows *all* matter/energy is corruptible, you are probably just confused about what conservation of energy means).

    I disagree, though a proton for instance may decay, the constituent energy does not simply cease to exist.

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  112. @Bob:

    "I disagree, though a proton for instance may decay, the constituent energy does not simply cease to exist."

    You can disagree whatever you want. Unless you give an account of what "constituent energy" is, you got exactly nothing.

    The way you talk, it seems to play a role suspiciously familiar to prime matter. Which means that not only you have exactly nothing, you have just made, albeit unwittingly, the point for the Aristotelian-Thomist.

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  113. @grodrigues

    Unless you give an account of what "constituent energy" is, you got exactly nothing.

    E = MC^2

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  114. Bob,

    This looks suspiciously like a concession to the position defended by Scott and dguller regarding accidentally and essentially ordered series. Are you now arguing that while it is true that a per se series must have a sustaining cause that the sustaining cause is simply the energy in the universe (that energy as described by the famous equation you cite is what is meant by the "unmoved mover")?

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  115. @Bob:

    "E = MC^2"

    I also know a couple of formulas for Energy. Here are some:

    E = hv
    dE = TdS - PdV
    E = 1/2 mv^2
    E = 1/2 kx^2
    E = 1/2 LI^2
    E = \int_{\gamma}mMG/r^2 dr
    E\psi = \overhat{H}\psi

    Do you have a point?

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  117. @grodrigues

    I am sure that you well understood my point.

    So tell me what happens to the constituents of a proton when the proton decays - do these constituents simply cease to exist?

    (And I am sure that you know the constituents of a proton.)

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  118. @Matt Sheean

    This looks suspiciously like a concession to the position defended by Scott and dguller regarding accidentally and essentially ordered series. Are you now arguing that while it is true that a per se series must have a sustaining cause that the sustaining cause is simply the energy in the universe (that energy as described by the famous equation you cite is what is meant by the "unmoved mover")?

    No I am not arguing that, per se.

    I am arguing that what exists seems to exist necessarily, at least at the most basic level. That stuff (matter/energy) has never been shown to cease to exist and that a hypothesis based on matter/energy simply ceasing to exist has no real legs to stand on from the outset.

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  119. @Bob:

    "I am sure that you well understood my point."

    But that is precisely the point , I do not understand what you are trying to say.

    But since you are so hesitant to actually give an account, I am going to make a *guess*, an uncharitable one at that: and my guess is that you simply do not know what you are talking about. And the reason is pretty simple: Energy is an observable, a *property* of material bodies, like matter, spin, charge, etc. A conservation law is a mathematical relation between universals. But in saying that there is conservation of charge or charm or whatever, there is *no* implication that charge, charm, is a constituent principle of substances, a free floating material cause, like bricks are the material cause of houses or bronze is the material cause of Philosopher's statues. And yet, you *do* seem to want to talk about Energy as if it were such a thing. But slapping around equations as if it were oh so obvious what they imply, is not going to cut it, neither are any appeals to Physics going to help you.

    I repeat what I have already said before: appeals to Physics only make the point for the Aristotelean-Thomist, for they show that E *changes* which is all that is needed to shoot down your suggestion. And if want to block that, you *must* take E in E = mc^2 to be the *rest energy* and *then* fill up your account, instead of playing coy and make pretend as if Physics is on your side. And even after that, the Aristotelean-Thomist will come around and say that since Energy is a *constituent* principle, it enters in composition, but Pure Act does not admit of composition, and neither it composes nor is composed of.

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  120. @grodrigues

    Yea, you miss the point.

    Why did you avoid answering my direct question as it exactly illuminates the point I am making.

    So again:

    Tell me what happens to the constituents of a proton when the proton decays - do these constituents simply cease to exist?

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  121. @Bob:

    "Yea, you miss the point."

    Simply repeating the question, without clarifying what you mean, is indeed missing the point. Are you talking of Energy as a constituent like a quark is a constituent of a proton or not? If the the latter, discussion's over, if the former, explain yourself.

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  122. @grodrigues

    I am not sure what is unclear about what I am asking.

    A proton is constituted by quarks and "empty space" (which itself has mass and is in fact the majority of the mass of a proton).

    So, again, when a proton decays do its constituent parts simply cease to exist or not?

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  123. @Bob:

    "So, again, when a proton decays do its constituent parts simply cease to exist or not?"

    Proton decay has never been observed.

    Since you are playing guessing games, I will *guess* that by "constituent parts" you mean quarks -- I know of no other suitable interpretation. Let us take an actual example, electron capture case of beta decay:

    p + e -> n + v

    At the quark level, we start with uud and end up with udd, so we have an unequivocal case of *change*, whether substantial or accidental. In the former, yes they cease to exist, in the latter they do not. It is impossible to know which, because, in Physics terms, the identity conditions for subatomic particles are ill-defined. And it is even dubious to talk of quarks as substances as they cannot be observed free due to9 quark confinement -- but I will grant you this one more concession. Here is the kicker: it is all quite irrelevant, as your suggestion was shot down the moment I wrote "*change*".

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  124. @grodrigues,

    Again, you wrote:

    as far as anyone knows *all* matter/energy is corruptible

    I provided an example of a possible "corruption", eg. a proton decay (and yes I know that it has never been observed).

    It seems to me that you are denying that the total amount of energy in a closed system remains constant. Is this a correct understanding of your position?


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  125. @Bob:

    "It seems to me that you are denying that the total amount of energy in a closed system remains constant. Is this a correct understanding of your position?"

    No.

    In God's name, where have you got that idea from? Are you even paying any attention? I confess I have little patience for chicken-shit games, so get back to me when you start paying attention. And for Heaven's sake, my background is in Mathematics, even Mathematical Physics, so it is not like I do not know what I am talking about.

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