Sunday, March 23, 2014

Dharmakīrti and Maimonides on divine action


Here’s a juxtaposition for you: the Buddhist philosopher Dharmakīrti (c. 600 - 660) and the medieval Jewish philosopher Moses Maimonides (1138 - 1204).  Both had interesting things to say about divine action, Dharmakīrti from the point of view of a critic of theism and Maimonides from the point of view of a theist committed to “negative theology.” 

Theism of a sort reminiscent of Western philosophical theology has its defenders in the history of Indian philosophy, particularly within the Nyāya-Vaiśeșika tradition.  In particular, one finds in this tradition arguments for the existence of īśvara (the “Lord”) as a single permanent, personal cause of the world of intermittent things.  The debate between these thinkers and their Buddhist critics parallels the dispute between theists and atheists in the West.  (To map the Indian philosophical traditions onto those of ancient Greece, you might compare the Buddhist position to that of Heraclitus, the Advaita Vedanta position of thinkers like Shankara (788 - 820) to that of Parmenides, and Indian theism to Aristotle’s Unmoved Mover.  But the similarities should not be overstated.)

Dharmakīrti’s critique of theistic arguments is usefully surveyed by Roger Jackson in his 1986 article “Dharmakīrti's Refutation of Theism” (from Philosophy East and West Vol. 36, No. 4).  In response to arguments from intermittent things to a permanent cause, Dharmakīrti objects:

How, if an entity is a cause,
(But is said) sometimes to be
A non-cause, can one assert in any way
That a cause is a non-cause?  One cannot so assert.

Jackson comments:

Successive causality and noncausality poses a problem because the causal entity posited by the theist, īśvara, is permanent.  He cannot, therefore, change from moment to moment, and if he is asserted to be causal, then he must always be causal, and can never become noncausal, for that would entail a change in nature, an impossibility for a permanent entity… Simultaneous causality and noncausality poses a problem, because īśvara is a single entity, yet is being furnished with contradictory qualities at one and the same time.  Contradictory properties cannot be predicated of a single, partless entity at one and the same time, and if these properties are reaffirmed, then īśvara cannot be single, but must be multiple.  Īśvara cannot, thus, be a creator of intermittent entities. (pp. 330-31)

The objection can be read as a dilemma, to the effect that īśvara either acts successively or he acts simultaneously, and each possibility leads to an unacceptable conclusion.  Start with the first horn of the dilemma.  If īśvara acts successively, then since intermittent things sometimes exist and sometimes do not, that means that he is sometimes causing them and sometimes not causing them.  That in turn entails that he undergoes change, in which case he is not the permanent entity he is supposed to be.  To put the point in Western terms, if īśvara is sometimes not causing intermittent things and then sometimes is causing them, then he goes from potency to act and is thus not immutable.

Now the Western classical theist will say that the divine first cause of things must be eternal or outside of time and thus does not act successively.  Rather, he causes the world of intermittent things in a single timeless act.  This brings us to the second horn of the dilemma posed by Jackson in expounding Dharmakīrti.  If īśvara timelessly causes intermittent things (as the Western classical theist would put it), then he simultaneously causes an intermittent thing (insofar as he is what makes it true that such a thing exists at the times when it does exist) and does not cause it (insofar as he refrains from making it true that it exists at the times when it does not exist).  But then we are making contradictory attributions to īśvara, insofar as we say both that he is causing and that he is not causing.  And to avoid this contradiction by making these attributions of two different causes would be to abandon the unity attributed to īśvara.

There is a fallacy here, though, which can be seen by comparison with the following example.  Suppose I am drawing a line across the top of a piece of paper, but that at the same time I am not drawing a line at the bottom of the paper.  So I am both drawing and not drawing at the same time.  Is there a contradiction here?  No, because I am not both drawing and not drawing in the same respect.  There would be a contradiction only if it were said that I am both drawing a line at the top of the page and also at the same time not drawing a line at the top of the page.  But that is not what is being said.  What is being said is that I am drawing a line at the top of the page and at the same time not drawing a line at the bottom of the page, and there is no contradiction in that. 

Similarly, suppose we say that īśvara timelessly causes an intermittent being A that exists from 8 am until 9 am.  Then he is not causing it to be the case that A exists before 8 am or after 9 am but is causing it to be the case that A exists between 8 am and 9 am.  There would be a contradiction here only if it were being claimed either that īśvara both causes and does not cause A to exist between 8 and 9 am, or if it were being claimed that īśvara both causes A to exist before 8 am and does not cause A to exist before 8 am, or if it were being claimed that īśvara both causes A to exist after 9 am and does not cause A to exist after 9 am.  But of course none of these things is being claimed.  What is claimed is rather that īśvara causes the existence of something that exists during the interval in question but not before or after it, and there is nothing contradictory in that.

More can be said -- which brings us to Maimonides, who, though he certainly did not have Dharmakīrti in mind, says things that imply a response to the objection under consideration.  Maimonides famously holds that we cannot make affirmative predications of God but only negative predications.  We can say what God is not but not what he is.  What about attributions of actions to God, as when we say that God shows mercy to us?  For Maimonides these should be understood as assertions not about God’s essence but rather about his effects.  To say that God shows mercy is to say that his effects are like the effects a merciful human agent would produce.

Now, consider the suggestion that a diversity of effects implies diversity in the cause -- in particular, that it implies either numerically distinct causes (which, in the case of divine action, would conflict with monotheism) or a distinction of parts (which would conflict with divine simplicity).  Dharmakīrti might be read as putting forward such an objection, if we interpret him as saying that insofar as īśvara both produces intermittent things and does not produce him, then we have to say either that there is more than one divine cause (one which causes intermittent things and one which does not) or distinct parts within īśvara (a part which causes intermittent things and a part which does not). 

Maimonides (though, again, he is obviously not addressing Dharmakīrti himself!) responds to this sort of objection, in his Guide of the Perplexed, using the analogy of fire:

Many of the attributes express different acts of God, but that difference does not necessitate any difference as regards Him from whom the acts proceed. This fact, viz., that from one agency different effects may result, although that agency has not free will, and much more so if it has free will, I will illustrate by an instance taken from our own sphere. Fire melts certain things and makes others hard, it boils and burns, it bleaches and blackens. If we described the fire as bleaching, blackening, burning, boiling, hardening and melting, we should be correct, and yet he who does not know the nature of fire, would think that it included six different elements, one by which it blackens, another by which it bleaches, a third by which it boils, a fourth by which it consumes, a fifth by which it melts, a sixth by which it hardens things--actions which are opposed to one another, and of which each has its peculiar property. He, however, who knows the nature of fire, will know that by virtue of one quality in action, namely, by heat, it produces all these effects. If this is the case with that which is done by nature, how much more is it the case with regard to beings that act by free will, and still more with regard to God, who is above all description. (Book I, Chapter 53)

So, just as effects as diverse and indeed opposed as bleaching and blackening, hardening and melting, can be produced by one and the same cause, heat, so too can a radical diversity of effects be produced by a divine cause which is absolutely simple and unique.  And (we might add, applying the point on Maimonides’ behalf to Dharmakīrti’s objection) just as heat will effect some things in one of the ways named while affecting others not at all, so too does the same absolutely simple God cause it to be the case that a thing exists at one point while not causing it to be the case that it exists at some other point.

Maimonides considers a related objection in Book II, Chapter 18, to the effect that “a transition from potentiality to actuality would take place in the Deity itself, if He produced a thing only at a certain fixed time.”  Maimonides says that “the refutation of this argument is very easy,” for a transition from potency to act need occur only in things made up of form and matter.  (Aquinas would add that it could occur in something immaterial but still composed of an essence together with a distinct act of existence, viz. an angel.)  To suppose that since the material things of our experience go from potential to actual when they produce a temporally finite effect, so too would God have to go from potential to actual in order to produce a temporally finite effect, is to commit a fallacy of accident.  All the philosophy professors who have ever lived or who are likely ever to live have been under ten feet tall, but it doesn’t follow that every philosophy professor must necessarily be under ten feet tall.  And even if the causes with which we are directly aware in experience produce their effects by virtue of moving from potency to act, it doesn’t follow that every cause must necessarily move from potency to act.

(I have considered related objections in this post and this one.)

318 comments:

  1. Ben:

    If you have authority over me and command me to do A & I tell you no matter what I will absolutely do A but if you could find a way for me to not do A I would appreciate it, how is that a lack of obedience?

    I never said it was “lack of obedience”. I said it was imperfect obedience.

    Compare:

    (1) “You have willed that I do X. I do not want to do X, but if you will it, then I’ll do X”.
    (2) “You have willed that I do X. I want to do X, and so if you will it, then I’ll do X”.

    To me, (2) is a more perfect obedience than (1). Perhaps it is completely irrelevant what someone feels or wants regarding X, and all that matters is that they do X. But I think that excludes an important feature of obedience, and would make grudging obedience as perfect as glad obedience.

    That’s the only point I’m trying to make, i.e. (2) is more perfect than (1).

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  2. Georgy:

    The reason I think distress matters is that Christ did obey perfectly, because this supposed desire to avoid doing God's will is irrelevant when discussing Christ's obedience (Him willing the will of God), because it wasn't voluntary in the proper sense at all.

    And I think that desire matters when judging how perfect obedience is. A person who does not want to follow through with a command is less obedient than a person who does want to follow through with a command, even if they both end up performing the command in question. That is because the former has set a part of himself in opposition to the commanding personality, whereas the latter is in harmony with the commanding personality.

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  3. (1) “You have willed that I do X. I do not want to do X, but if you will it, then I’ll do X”.
    (2) “You have willed that I do X. I want to do X, and so if you will it, then I’ll do X”.


    To these I'd add:

    (3) "You appear to have willed that I do X. I want to do whatever you will, including X if that's genuinely what you will, but if you don't mind my saying so, I sure hope it isn't, because X isn't something I'd care to do apart from your willing it. But if my doing X really is your will, then of course I'll do it out of my desire to obey your will in all things no matter what."

    I'm not seeing any imperfection in obedience there.

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  4. In fact I seem to see a "higher" (if that's the right word) obedience in (3) than in (2). After all, in (2) X is something the agent would have been happy to do anyway.

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  5. To put it another way, I see an important difference between being absolutely unwilling to do X, on the one hand, and on the other, being unwilling to do X generally but being conditionally willing to do it if God the Father commands it.

    The latter seems to me to be entirely compatible with being absolutely willing to do what God the Father wills—this being what I would describe as "perfect obedience."

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  6. Scott:

    (3) "You appear to have willed that I do X. I want to do whatever you will, including X if that's genuinely what you will, but if you don't mind my saying so, I sure hope it isn't, because X isn't something I'd care to do apart from your willing it. But if my doing X really is your will, then of course I'll do it out of my desire to obey your will in all things no matter what."

    I'm not seeing any imperfection in obedience there.


    For that to be what Christ meant would imply that he did not actually know what the Father’s will commanded for him. In fact, it implies that the Father’s command was just an appearance to Christ that he could possibly misunderstand and misinterpret. Furthermore, it implies some kind of inner reasoning process in Christ in which he was thinking matters through, which again, seems to imply that he lacked certainty and knowledge of the Father’s will.

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  7. @rank sophist:

    "And more slander. I've always liked you, Scott, but that hurts."

    Good. I've always liked you too, so I hope the sting of my remark will induce you to take it seriously—for in my view it's you who have been engaging in (the perpetuation of) slander against Catholic teaching.

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  8. Scott:

    In fact I seem to see a "higher" (if that's the right word) obedience in (3) than in (2). After all, in (2) X is something the agent would have been happy to do anyway.

    And I see (2) as higher, because the agent in (2) has completely harmonized his will with the commanding personality, whereas in (1), there is a disharmony that requires additional steps to bridge the gap. It is similar to saying that knowledge of God via immediate intellectual intuition is better than knowledge of God via discursive natural reasoning. The former is simply closer than the latter to the known object. Similarly, the agent in (2) is closer to the commanding personality than the agent in (1).

    Or at least that’s how it seems to me.

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  9. I am afraid Scott is right dguller.

    Wither God the Father answered Christ's prayer or not Jesus still wanted to do the Father's Will regardless so clearly it was a perfect obedience.

    I suspect what you consider "perfect obedience" is not our understanding of perfect obedience.

    Christ only "wanted" to avoid death if and only if God's Will permitted it and under no other circumstances then that, thus His obedience to the divine will in this case was perfect.

    Imperfect obedience is only doing A for God if God does B for you.

    I think you might be equivocating between perfect obedience to the divine will with perfect enthusiasm for experiencing suffering just because God commanded it.

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  10. @dguller;

    "For that to be what Christ meant would imply that he did not actually know what the Father’s will commanded for him."

    The example is easily adjusted. The essential point is that as long as the agent is absolutely motivated to do the Father's will no matter what it is, his wishing, hoping, or praying that said will might be otherwise isn't a blemish on or failure of his obedience.

    Indeed, his praying for that will to be otherwise already presumes such obedience, for it implicitly acknowledges that in order not to do the commanded X, he needs the Father's permission.

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  11. And yet again Ben got there ahead of me. ;-) Thanks, Ben.

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  12. Of course the real question is why did Jesus pray for something via his human will he knew in His divine will he would not grant?

    But it's not wrong for him to do so in anyway nor is it a lack of obedience to the divine will.

    Perfect obedience means obedience that lacks nothing to will it's end.

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  13. "Of course the real question is why did Jesus pray for something via his human will he knew in His divine will he would not grant?"

    That is a puzzling question, but you're right that it doesn't bear on His obedience.

    Hey, dguller, how are momma and the new baby doing? Well, I hope?

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  14. Scott:

    The example is easily adjusted. The essential point is that as long as the agent is absolutely motivated to do the Father's will no matter what it is, his wishing, hoping, or praying that said will might be otherwise isn't a blemish on or failure of his obedience.

    Indeed, his praying for that will to be otherwise already presumes such obedience, for it implicitly acknowledges that in order not to do the commanded X, he needs the Father's permission.


    Say that you have two people, A and B. Each knows that the divine will commands them to do X. Each actually performs X, because that is precisely what the divine will has commanded them to do. But A wishes he never had to do X, and would rather have done Y instead, and B has no such qualms or regrets about having to do X at all. It seems to me that B is more in harmony with the divine will than A in the sense that there is no discord between B’s wants and God’s wants, and as such, B is superior to A in terms of obedience by virtue of the absence of any disharmony between B and the divine will.

    Is the Catholic position that A and B are equal in terms of obedience in the above scenario?

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  15. Ben:

    I suspect what you consider "perfect obedience" is not our understanding of perfect obedience.

    You might be right.

    Christ only "wanted" to avoid death if and only if God's Will permitted it and under no other circumstances then that, thus His obedience to the divine will in this case was perfect.

    But he knew that God’s will did not permit it, and so he wanted something that went against the divine will, even if he ended up obeying the divine will anyway.

    I think you might be equivocating between perfect obedience to the divine will with perfect enthusiasm for experiencing suffering just because God commanded it.

    Yes, that’s a good way to put it. Enthusiastic obedience is superior to unenthusiastic obedience.

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  16. Scott:

    Hey, dguller, how are momma and the new baby doing? Well, I hope?

    Doing just fine, and thanks for asking.

    And I have to say that I find myself in a most peculiar position for an atheist. My children attend Catholic school. The family attends a local evangelical church for its positive environment for families. Who knows what will come from this bizarre mix!

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  17. One thing it teaches me is it re-enforces my belief God doesn't owe His creatures anything(Christ's human will is a Creature granted one hypostatically united to the divine nature).

    If He won't answer the prayer of one of His divine selves that comes from his human will then if some of
    my heart felt prayers never get answered I should not presume to take it personally.

    It also tells me praying to God is it's own reward even if He doesn't give me anything I ask for somehow He will still give me what I need.

    There is a lifetime of spiritual food in that one verse.

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  18. >But he knew that God’s will did not permit it,

    But he knew it was not in the absolute sense. He could not for example pray to God to change a divine commandment & give men the right to commit let us say adultery or command sin.

    But he can pray for clement weather even if in his divine will he knows he will not grant it at any particular time.

    >and so he wanted something that went against the divine will, even if he ended up obeying the divine will anyway.

    Technically it's not against the divine will unless he wills not to die at the father's command when the father wills he should.

    >You might be right.

    I suspect most disagreement happens when we have against our will equivocal terms put upon us.

    Cheer.

    Blessings to your new born children and my good will & prayers.

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  19. >Yes, that’s a good way to put it. Enthusiastic obedience is superior to unenthusiastic obedience.

    Well he was enthusiastic in his obedience. He was unenthusiastic over feeling pain in an of itself.
    Which is only natural but not a lack of obedience.

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  20. Ben:

    But he knew it was not in the absolute sense. He could not for example pray to God to change a divine commandment & give men the right to commit let us say adultery or command sin.

    But it remains true that there was a part of himself that preferred an alternative course of action, because it would avoid personal pain and suffering. And that indicates a part of himself that puts itself above the divine will by implying that a course of action that avoided personal pain and suffering would be better than the divine plan. Otherwise, why even entertain the possibility at all? If he truly believed with all his heart that his pain and suffering were a necessary part of the plan, then there should be no discord whatsoever between the divine plan and himself, in any respect.

    Technically it's not against the divine will unless he wills not to die at the father's command when the father wills he should.

    If he wants something other than the divine will, then that is a mark of disobedience in him. There is more to obedience than just obeying, but rather the manner in which one obeys a command is also a mark of the degree of perfection in the obedience itself.

    Well he was enthusiastic in his obedience. He was unenthusiastic over feeling pain in an of itself.
    Which is only natural but not a lack of obedience.


    Then his obedience was less perfect than someone who was enthusiastic over suffering for the sake of the divine plan. There were Christian martyrs that reveled in the opportunity to experience agonizing pain for the sake of their faith, after all. Flinching in the face of a blow may be natural, but someone who does not flinch and takes a hit without a hint of avoidance is superior to someone who flinches, I think.

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  21. @dguller:

    "Doing just fine, and thanks for asking."

    Not at all. Glad to hear it, and my best wishes/prayers to the new dgullerette (and the dgullerina).

    "And I have to say that I find myself in a most peculiar position for an atheist. My children attend Catholic school. The family attends a local evangelical church for its positive environment for families. Who knows what will come from this bizarre mix!"

    Heh, that's an interesting mix, all right. But I think you at least have all the bases covered as far as Christianity is concerned. ;-)

    "If he wants something other than the divine will, then that is a mark of disobedience in him."

    I really do see your point here but I think you're mistaken in calling this a mark of obedience. Sure, if Christ's human will had wholeheartedly, absolutely wanted what the Father wanted, independently of the Father's willing it, then his human will might have been more in conformity to the Father's will. But I simply don't see that such lack of conformity (if that's what it was) was a defect specifically in obedience. It seems to me that obedience is (if anything) more perfect if one's personal inclinations are otherwise and one is resolved to obey anyway.

    As Ben says, Christ was enthusiastic for obedience itself. He was just unenthusiastic about pain and suffering in and of themselves, which seems to me to be a different thing; nor do I think the martyrs who embraced it did so because they thought it was intrinsically good.

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  22. To weigh in: When one has conflicting ends, the will has to decide between them. Men have a natural aversion to life-threatening circumstances.

    For obedience to be perfect that one always forms one's will to God's will, not that one wills all of the conflicting ends.

    A child obeys his parent when he swallows his nasty medicine willingly, whenever his parent asks. That he enjoy swallowing the medicine is not essential to the quality of the obedience.

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  23. Oops. "For obedience to be perfect it is required that that one always forms one's will to God's will, not that one wills all of the conflicting ends."

    I wonder if this might even be a corollary of the principle of double effect.

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  24. @Greg:

    "A child obeys his parent when he swallows his nasty medicine willingly, whenever his parent asks. That he enjoy swallowing the medicine is not essential to the quality of the obedience."

    And nor do I think it bespeaks a failure specifically of obedience if he says, "Please, Mommy, don't make me take this if I don't have to, but I'll take it if you tell me to."

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  25. @Scott
    And nor do I think it bespeaks a failure specifically of obedience if he says, "Please, Mommy, don't make me take this if I don't have to, but I'll take it if you tell me to."

    Certainly. The reasons for willing the contrary are overridden, but they are not eliminated, and it would be unnatural for the undesirable effect to be willed in itself. A martyr can only will his own death for others' sakes. To will his death apart from others' sakes is perverse.

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  26. Let us try to look at it this way.


    If Jesus was enthusiastic over feeling the pain of Crucifixion for it's own sake how would that make him more obedient?

    It's wouldn't it would just make him look like a bit of a weirdo.


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  27. >"If he wants something other than the divine will, then that is a mark of disobedience in him."

    But Jesus by definition doesn't want anything other then the divine will.

    He only want to not have to die if it is the divine will.

    That is not the same thing.

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  28. >But it remains true that there was a part of himself that preferred an alternative course of action, because it would avoid personal pain and suffering.

    Human nature wants what it wants by nature according to the essence God gave it when he created it.

    Nothing wrong here.

    >And that indicates a part of himself that puts itself above the divine will by implying that a course of action that avoided personal pain and suffering would be better than the divine plan.

    Rather it's just that human nature is adverse to death and pain according to the essence God gave it. Thus a perfectly obedient human will to the divine will would can and maybe even has a duty to ask the divine will if it may be exempt from death and torture but only if it is according to the divine will.


    >Otherwise, why even entertain the possibility at all? If he truly believed with all his heart that his pain and suffering were a necessary part of the plan, then there should be no discord whatsoever between the divine plan and himself, in any respect.

    Because even in his human intellect and will Jesus knew the Father could have granted his prayer. God wills from all eternity what prayers that happen in time he will grant or not and any he doesn't grant he could have done otherwise if said prayers they are lawful in and of themselves.

    God is free to will as He wishes.

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  29. >For obedience to be perfect that one always forms one's will to God's will, not that one wills all of the conflicting ends.

    That is the ticket. Of course this may relate to different objection/criticism I've seen dguller make as to wither or not we can say God wills freely.

    I suggest that might be in play in the back of his mind.

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  30. Of course then there is the knowledge of Christ. In his divine nature & person he knows all by the divine intellect. However his human nature does not know all since a human nature cannot by definition know all. His human intellect can only know what a human intellect may know that is natural knowledge, acquired knowledge and infused.

    At the time of his prayer his human intellect did not yet have the knowledge revealed to him & thus did not know the answer till he asked by his human will?

    Of course we must be careful here and not fall into Nestorianism when asking these questions.

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  31. @Greg:

    "To will his death apart from others' sakes is perverse."

    Exactly. This example brings out clearly what I was trying to get at in distinguishing between willing something absolutely and intrinsically (as an end desirable in itself) vs. willing it conditionally and instrumentally (as a means).

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  32. Scott:

    But I simply don't see that such lack of conformity (if that's what it was) was a defect specifically in obedience. It seems to me that obedience is (if anything) more perfect if one's personal inclinations are otherwise and one is resolved to obey anyway.

    And I see things differently. To me, the mark of obedience is the degree to which a person’s desires (and wishes, and hopes, and so on) and will are in conformity with the desires (and wishes, and hopes, and so on) and will of the commanding person. Grudging obedience is not superior to wholehearted obedience, at least on my account. A child that complains while performing their chores is not superior to a child that cheerfully performs their chores. Sure, the former may be more impressive, given the fact that they have to work harder to do their chores. But saying the former is more perfect than the latter qua obedience would be like saying that a deformed person is more perfect than a normal person, because the former must work harder to achieve their goals.

    As Ben says, Christ was enthusiastic for obedience itself. He was just unenthusiastic about pain and suffering in and of themselves, which seems to me to be a different thing; nor do I think the martyrs who embraced it did so because they thought it was intrinsically good.

    Again, I disagree. To disapprove of the means while approving of the ends is to exist in disharmony with the commanding person, which decreases the perfection of the obedience. And the martyrs likely embraced the means and the end, because the means is the way that the end is achieved, and the totality were demanded by God, and thus the totality must be good.

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  33. Greg:

    To weigh in: When one has conflicting ends, the will has to decide between them. Men have a natural aversion to life-threatening circumstances.

    The issue is not one of conflicting ends, but of disagreeing with the means to achieving a desired end. The pain and suffering of the passion were necessary to achieving the salvation of mankind. They did not conflict with one another at all. The latter was only possible by virtue of the former, and thus to accept the end while questioning the means is simultaneously to question the end, because the end is impossible without that means.

    A child obeys his parent when he swallows his nasty medicine willingly, whenever his parent asks. That he enjoy swallowing the medicine is not essential to the quality of the obedience.

    And I think that it is. How one obeys reflects upon the quality of the obedience. Just doing what someone commands is necessary for perfect obedience, but it is not sufficient. The appropriate attitude towards the command is also necessary, as can be seen by a person who complains throughout the obedience versus someone who genuinely agrees with the rightness of the commanded task.

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  34. Ben:

    If Jesus was enthusiastic over feeling the pain of Crucifixion for it's own sake how would that make him more obedient?

    It would make him more obedient, because he accepted the goodness of the means and the end. After all, a painless passion would be worthless to redeem mankind. The pain and suffering were an essential part of the plan of salvation, such that their absence would make salvation impossible. They are not an unfortunate side effect of the plan of salvation, but its very heart and soul. To lack enthusiasm for the pain and suffering is to lack enthusiasm for the salvation of mankind, especially when matters are kept in perspective, i.e. a few hours of pain and suffering for an eternity of salvation for humanity, the inevitability of a return to life in a higher form, and so on.

    But Jesus by definition doesn't want anything other then the divine will.

He only want to not have to die if it is the divine will.

    But he does want something other than the divine will. The divine will demands that he experience pain and suffering in order to save mankind, and he does not want to experience pain and suffering. In other words, God demands that Christ (a) suffer and (b) save mankind through his suffering. It is this conjunction that God commands to occur, and to reject one part of the conjunction is to reject the conjunction itself.

    Rather it's just that human nature is adverse to death and pain according to the essence God gave it.

    That is not true. It is certainly possible to circumvent this instinct. There are masochists who experience pain as pleasure, and thus directly seek out pain as something good.

    Thus a perfectly obedient human will to the divine will would can and maybe even has a duty to ask the divine will if it may be exempt from death and torture but only if it is according to the divine will.

    To ask if there is a way to avoid the command is to reject the validity of the command, because one is questioning whether the command is truly good under the circumstances.

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  35. If Jesus was enthusiastic over feeling the pain of Crucifixion for it's own sake how would that make him more obedient?

    Jesus wouldn't have to be enthusiastic - he just wouldn't question it. I'm not sure why Jesus would have questioned it unless all the previous allusions about his death and resurrection to a glorified state were not made by him. As a consistent narrative it doesn't make sense to predict or prophecy something multiple times and then, while it is coming true, wonder if there might be another plan that could accomplish the same result.

    Okay, going back to the older topic of a Protestant tendency (Scott's original claim) to think the Father "poured out his wrath" on the Son. The links provided gave a quote from RC Sroul who is indeed influential among conservative Calvinists. The Wikipedia article gives a more complex view on the subject, especially the unique view of Martin Luther and the legalistic frame Calvin used. The view seems to infect mostly evangelicals who are admittedly somewhat addicted to the notion of an angry God.

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  36. Ugh, should be R. C. Sproul.

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  37. I just had a brilliant thought. Perhaps the rest of you smelled the smoke?

    >To disapprove of the means while approving of the ends is to exist in disharmony with the commanding person, which decreases the perfection of the obedience.

    There is no disapproval here rather the natural aversion a human nature has against being tortured and killed & the human will addressing it within the bounds of perfect obedience to God whose will has primacy over the wants of mere nature.

    It seems to me at this point dguller for your objection to make any sense Christ would have to somehow intuitively know it was somehow against the divine will to even ask God to use his power to bring about redemption by some means other than the cross to spare his human nature from suffering.

    Yeh that is the flaw here. If God willed from all eternity that Christ in his human will should not even in principle ask the Father to bring about redemption in some other manner other then the Cross then God would have revealed his divine will in this manner to Christ’s human intellect before hand. In which case having this infused knowledge in his human intellect Christ by his perfectly obedient human will would not even ever have prayed what he prayed. If it is a question of the perfect obedience to God’s Will clearly if it was against God’s will that Christ should even ask “If possible let this cup pass from me….etc.thy will be done” then Christ would have known that and not asked. This is why Christ can not even in principle ever pray “Father all things are possible for you. Let a man lay with any woman he wants even if she be the wife of another man, but not my will but thy will be done”. Christ knows that is absolutely against God’s will to commit adultery & thus he could never pray that prayer.

    > And the martyrs likely embraced the means and the end, because the means is the way that the end is achieved, and the totality were demanded by God, and thus the totality must be good.

    By praying for the cup to pass Christi is not saying the Cross is not good. He is merely asking provided it is God’s will, for a different good to be put into play that doesn’t put out his human nature.

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  38. >It would make him more obedient, because he accepted the goodness of the means and the end. After all, a painless passion would be worthless to redeem mankind.

    Accept there is no dogma in Catholicism that says the Cross was the only way God could have redeemed mankind. God could have done it another way because of the divine freedom just as God could have chosen from all eternity not to create in the first place.

    So this is a major disagreement on the warrant of your argument.

    >But he does want something other than the divine will.

    For this claim to make any sense Christ would have to know it was against God’s will for him to even ask the Cup pass him by.
    If this was God’s will then God would have made it know to Christ’s human intellect & he never would have asked God obviously willed this request may be made even if God knows from all eternity he will deny the request.

    >That is not true. It is certainly possible to circumvent this instinct. There are masochists who experience pain as pleasure, and thus directly seek out pain as something good.

    I was being cheeky dguller but I really don’t want to discuss if Christ can be a masochist. But as I said it would make him out to be a weirdo. So let’s not if you don’t mind. Thanks bud.(put that on the shelf for another day).

    >To ask if there is a way to avoid the command is to reject the validity of the command,

    Not at all it merrily shows one’s subordination to authority and the primacy of that authority in dictating your actions.

    >because one is questioning whether the command is truly good under the circumstances.

    I reject the idea the Cross is more or less good then any other means of redemption God might have used. Remember dguller my arguments on Stephen Law’s blog on the “evil god”. Like a good Thomist I reject the idea of the best of all possible worlds. I certainly would reject the idea of the best of all possible redemptions.

    Cheers.

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  39. Ben:

    It seems to me at this point dguller for your objection to make any sense Christ would have to somehow intuitively know it was somehow against the divine will to even ask God to use his power to bring about redemption by some means other than the cross to spare his human nature from suffering.

    It would be against the divine will, if the only way to achieve salvation was via Christ’s pain and suffering. If Christ knew that there was no other way to achieve salvation other than through his pain and suffering, then to question the need for his pain and suffering would be tantamount to questioning the need for salvation. It would be like affirming the reality of a triangle, but questioning whether it required three sides.

    And if there were a way to achieve salvation without Christ’s pain and suffering, then what does it say about God that he unnecessarily chose to torture his own son, and by extension himself, to achieve salvation?

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  40. Ben:

    I was being cheeky dguller but I really don’t want to discuss if Christ can be a masochist. But as I said it would make him out to be a weirdo. So let’s not if you don’t mind. Thanks bud.(put that on the shelf for another day).

    I meant no disrespect. My only point was that it is possible for some human beings to experience pain as something good and to be actively sought out voluntarily. If someone is able to do so simply on the basis of their own selfish gratification, then why can’t someone else do so on the basis that doing so would save all of mankind?

    I certainly would reject the idea of the best of all possible redemptions.

    So, you would affirm that there was a possible way to achieve the goal of salvation for mankind without Christ’s suffering and sacrifice? If Christ’s suffering and sacrifice were not necessary for salvation, then the entire exercise becomes one of needless torment. I was always under the impression that his death was necessary for salvation, i.e. there was no other way. That would make it a terrible but potentially redeemable. But if it was gratuitous, then the entire matter becomes simply horrific.

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  41. Ben:

    And here’s Aquinas:

    “It was not necessary, then, for Christ to suffer from necessity of compulsion, either on God's part, who ruled that Christ should suffer, or on Christ's own part, who suffered voluntarily. Yet it was necessary from necessity of the end proposed” (ST 3.46.1).

    So, Christ’s death was not necessary either from the divine nature or human nature, but it was necessary once the end of human salvation was proposed.

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  42. @dguller

    >It would be against the divine will, if the only way to achieve salvation was via Christ’s pain and suffering. If Christ knew that there was no other way to achieve salvation other than through his pain and suffering, then to question the need for his pain and suffering would be tantamount to questioning the need for salvation. It would be like affirming the reality of a triangle, but questioning whether it required three sides.

    Given the premises what you right above is flawlessly logical. But I don’t hold those premises…..


    >And if there were a way to achieve salvation without Christ’s pain and suffering, then what does it say about God that he unnecessarily chose to torture his own son, and by extension himself, to achieve salvation?

    Good question! But as you know I don’t accept the idea God has moral obligations to his creatures so God has no obligation to save us in the first place. One might turn this back to the problem of evil.

    >I meant no disrespect…

    No worries. If anything I was dancing to close to the edge. I am the Christian here and should know better. I just don’t want to take the additional tangent on board. Too much work and I want to level up tonight on SWTOR.

    >So, you would affirm that there was a possible way to achieve the goal of salvation for mankind without Christ’s suffering and sacrifice?

    If I believe Karl Keating or Scott Hahn and a few others. Still I don’t think it’s settled theology. It may be an open field.

    > If Christ’s suffering and sacrifice were not necessary for salvation, then the entire exercise becomes one of needless torment. I was always under the impression that his death was necessary for salvation, i.e. there was no other way. That would make it a terrible but potentially redeemable. But if it was gratuitous, then the entire matter becomes simply horrific.

    Well God is omnipotent & thus nothing that can be done is in fact hard for him to do. Indeed given classic theism hard & easy are incoherent concepts when applied to God.

    (insert two minutes of hate for Theistic Personalism)

    It is necessary in the sense God must do by necessity what He wills & he willed this is how redemption will be brought about. OTOH the divine freedom is such he could have from all eternity resolved to do it another way. Wither it would have been better or worst I don’t think that can be coherently thought.

    >there was no other way.

    Well technically there is no way to Heaven for us except threw Christ (including invincibly ignorant non-believers who follow the light they have) since that is the way God has freely chosen to redeem us.

    I think dguller we need to revisit the problem of evil. Time for a re-read of Brian Davies.

    Cheers.

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  43. So, Christ’s death was not necessary either from the divine nature or human nature, but it was necessary once the end of human salvation was proposed.

    Yup! Good call!

    Your doing my homework for me. Which I like because you saved me from working.

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  44. “It was not necessary, then, for Christ to suffer from necessity of compulsion, either on God's part, who ruled that Christ should suffer, or on Christ's own part, who suffered voluntarily. Yet it was necessary from necessity of the end proposed” (ST 3.46.1)

    Ladies and Gentilemen dguller has leveled up!

    Any more quick questions before I bail?

    Bounty Hunters don't level themselves!

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  45. Christ has two natures.

    As God he know all & thus as God he knows when the end of the world will be.

    OTOH as a human Christ human intellect has the limits of human intellect by nature.

    Christ only reveals to us knowledge which God has infused in his human intellect & nothing beyond that.

    Which is why even thought he is omniscient Christ can profess ignorance to the time of the end of the world. That knowledge is not infused in his human intellect.

    Well there is no knowledge given to his human intellect by the Father that informs him that he can't ask God to bring about redemption in some another manner.

    Like I said there is a lifetime of spiritual food in this one verse alone IMHO.

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  46. In news totally unrelated to the best day of the year, I've discovered Ben’s secret.

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  47. @Step2

    That is a good guess. One of my SWTOR characters is a Sith.

    Of course I play him as a renegade who delves into the Light Side.

    See here:
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Light_Sith

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  48. Ben,

    can you give me some brief points against euthanasia from an A-T perspective?

    I need it for an assignment. Any help would be fantastic thanks.

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  49. Ben:

    So, Christ’s death was not necessary either from the divine nature or human nature, but it was necessary once the end of human salvation was proposed.

    Yup! Good call!


    So, you agree that under the circumstances that Christ found himself in Gethsemane, it was necessary that he had to suffer and die to redeem mankind. And he must have known that it would be impossible to save mankind without his pain and suffering, which means that there was no possibility of avoiding his pain and suffering and saving mankind.

    And that means that when he questioned the need for his pain and suffering, he was simultaneously questioning the need for human salvation, because the two are necessarily intertwined, under the circumstances that he found himself. And that means that he was questioning both the means and the end of God’s command, which is certainly not a mark of perfect obedience.

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  50. >So, you agree that under the circumstances that Christ found himself in Gethsemane, it was necessary that he had to suffer and die to redeem mankind. And he must have known that it would be impossible to save mankind without his pain and suffering, which means that there was no possibility of avoiding his pain and suffering and saving mankind.

    I don’t recall saying that at all? That is not what I meant. Where do you get that?

    No he must have known it is possible for mankind to be saved in some other manner otherwise he would not have bothered to ask. Also he must have known it is not against God’s will to ask otherwise God would have infused that knowledge into his human intellect. When the Father said no to His prayer that sealed it and finalized the proposition.

    >And that means that when he questioned the need for his pain and suffering, he was simultaneously questioning the need for human salvation, because the two are necessarily intertwined, under the circumstances that he found himself. And that means that he was questioning both the means and the end of God’s command, which is certainly not a mark ofperfect obedience.

    That is a bit of a stretch since you have to show God revealed to Christ's human intellect that it was against the divine will to even ask. Also since Christ has already resolved to do the Father’s will regardless & unconditionally in relation to wither His prayer was answered or not his obedience remains perfect. Obedience involved full consent of the will toward the end commanded. Clearly Christ fully intended to do the Father’s will regardless. At no time did he say “I’ll do it but I’d rather not”. He said if it be the Father’s will let this cup pass from me. Obedience to the Will of God was in the primacy thus perfect obedience.

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  51. >So, Christ’s death was not necessary either from the divine nature or human nature, but it was necessary once the end of human salvation was proposed.

    I was under the impression dguller realized the Cross was necessary because that is the means and end God had willed? Not by some other type of unstated necessity.

    The Cross is necessary because God willed it so. God is not compelled by anything by necessity other then Himself. Nothing in God's nature other then Him willing it makes the Cross necessary for our salvation.

    God is immutable so your prayers don't change His mind. Rather God can will conditionally and immutably if you pray A God will do B. If you don't pray A then god will not do B.

    Prayer is one of the ways we mortals explore God's will.

    Oh wait a minute? Hold the phone! I just woke up (today is my day off)! Now I get why dguller's post doesn't make sense. It's April Fool's day & I am being played!!!

    Good one!

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  52. Ben:

    I don’t recall saying that at all? That is not what I meant. Where do you get that?

    I wrote: “So, Christ’s death was not necessary either from the divine nature or human nature, but it was necessary once the end of human salvation was proposed,” and you replied: “Yup! Good call!” You seemed to agree that if human salvation is the end, then Christ’s death is necessary to achieve human salvation. In other words, under the circumstances in which Christ found himself, the only way to achieve the goal of human salvation was via his torture and death.

    No he must have known it is possible for mankind to be saved in some other manner otherwise he would not have bothered to ask. Also he must have known it is not against God’s will to ask otherwise God would have infused that knowledge into his human intellect. When the Father said no to His prayer that sealed it and finalized the proposition.

    And that is the problem. For Christ’s prayer to have the torture not occur to make any sense, it must be the case that there must have been another possible course of action to take that would achieve the goal of human salvation. If there is no such alternative course of action, then Christ’s prayer makes no sense at all, especially if he must have known that there is no such alternative at all. According to Aquinas, Christ’s suffering “was necessary from necessity of the end proposed” (ST 3.46.1). In other words, once the goal of human salvation was proposed, the means of Christ’s torture and death became necessary. The goal was impossible to achieve without that specific means. Christ would surely have known this, and thus questioning the only means to achieve the end is simultaneously a questioning of the end itself.

    That is a bit of a stretch since you have to show God revealed to Christ's human intellect that it was against the divine will to even ask.

    So, your claim is that Christ did not know that the only way to achieve human salvation was through his torture and death. I think that is impossible. Christ had total knowledge of divine things via his divine intellect and had total knowledge of created things via his created intellect. As Aquinas wrote: “we must admit in the soul of Christ an infused knowledge, inasmuch as the Word of God imprinted upon the soul of Christ, which is personally united to Him, intelligible species of all things to which the possible intellect is in potentiality” (ST 3.9.3). In other words, Christ knew everything divine and everything created. There was nothing that he did not know, including the necessity of his torture and death as the only way to achieve the goal of human salvation.

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  53. >You seemed to agree that if human salvation is the end, then Christ’s death is necessary to achieve human salvation.

    My emphasis my thinking was on the words "was proposed” meaning once it was clear that it was God’s will. If that was not clear then my bad. I was thinking in terms of the divine freedom. I mistakingly thought you got that bit since we discussed the divine freedom in the past.

    >And that is the problem. For Christ’s prayer to have the torture not occur to make any sense, it must be the case that there must have been another possible course of action to take that would achieve the goal of human salvation.

    Luke renders it “Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done.” We must see the “possibility" as something that is linked to God’s Will. God via the divine freedom could have brought salvation by other means by willing otherwise from all eternity. I’ve been checking some commentaries Aquinas has one called the CATENA AUREA that is a compilation of the Fathers commentaries on the Gospels. One Father said Christ is giving himself as an example to future Martyrs who may pray for deliverance but only within God’s will.

    > In other words, once the goal of human salvation was proposed, the means of Christ’s torture and death became necessary.

    Rather once it was willed by God it became necessary. Once it is revealed to Christ’s human intellect this is the divine will by denying his prayer Christ in his humanity knows it’s necessary. Christ is unique in that having two natures he Knows all and yet does not know all at the same time but in two different senses by two different natures.

    >So, your claim is that Christ did not know that the only way to achieve human salvation was through his torture and death.

    Rather his human intellect did not have that knowledge. Since will is informed by intellect then Christ’s human will can only act on info given to his human intellect. There is no reason to believe Christ’s human intellect knew definitively God would not provide another way till informed by the divine intellect.

    > I think that is impossible. Christ had total knowledge of divine things via his divine intellect and had total knowledge of created things via his created intellect.

    How can knowing something like the divine uncreated will that can only come from divine revelation be an example of total knowledge of created things via a created intellect? That seems impossible. That is 2+2=5.

    >As Aquinas wrote: “we must admit in the soul of Christ an infused knowledge, inasmuch as the Word of God imprinted upon the soul of Christ, which is personally united to Him, intelligible species of all things to which the possible intellect is in potentiality” (ST 3.9.3).

    I was the first one here to bring up the fact Christ human intellect is not omniscient & is limited to natural,experiential and infused/imprinted knowledge. Where does Aquinas say Christ knows he may not ask the Father to let the cup pass from him? When did God imprint this knowledge & how do we know this happened? You must take this into account.

    >In other words, Christ knew everythingdivine and everything created. There was nothing that he did not know, including the necessity of his torture and death as the only way to achieve the goal of human salvation.

    In his divine person he knew everything and did so even without having become incarnate. But his human intellect did not know everything except maybe potentially since the human intellect was united to the divine. But when and how the divine actualized the human intellect with the knowledge that Christ would definitely have to take up the Cross is critical. There is no reason to believe that didn’t happen till the Agoney in the Garden.

    Any other concerns?

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  54. If I am still unclear I will try harder in the future.

    That is no April fool.

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  55. Oh my wife Rosemarie tells me Perfect Obedience means you generally intend to obey and never actually fail to obey.

    Imperfect obedience means you generally intend to obey but you don't always manage to pull it off.

    For example as a Christian in general I would like to do the will of God but I do sin. So by definition my obedience is imperfect.

    Cheers dguller. Best to the family.

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  56. @Tony - March 28, 2014 at 4:16 PM


    You are confusing "There is a good that is not present HERE" with "This is evil".

    You are missing my point.

    The only 'evil' I am referring to is the necessary lack of perfection in creation; the privation of "the good".

    I am talking about the logical implications for free will under a metaphysical framework that requires a purely actual, eternally existent and per se sustaining, first cause.

    It seems to me that this metaphysics is logically equivalent to hard determinism and that free will is therefore an illusion caused by the fact that we simply cannot see the future, (a future that is necessarily eternally existent and logically follows from the nature of the first cause itself).

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  57. Update:

    BTW in the (Summa Theologica Part Three Q46 Article 2) Aquinas does argue that it is possible for God to bring about human deliverance besides the Passion of Christ.


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  58. Additional:


    From the Catholic Encylopedia

    Knowledge of Jesus Christ
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08675a.htm


    QUOTE"It is quite clear that, however perfect the human soul of Christ is, it always remains finite and limited; hence its knowledge cannot be unlimited and infinite."

    QUOTEThe other text is Mark 13:32: "Of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father."......the Son has no knowledge of this event, which spring from His human nature as such, or again, the Son has no knowledge of the day and the hour, that has not been communicated to Him by the Father."END QUOTE

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  59. @BenYachov & dguller:

    Ben writes: "BTW in the (Summa Theologica Part Three Q46 Article 2) Aquinas does argue that it is possible for God to bring about human deliverance besides the Passion of Christ."

    Certainly, and Objection 2 and its Reply are especially apposite.

    And I still fail to see why the hope that some different means might be employed amounts to a failure specifically of obedience. First of all, I think (as I gather Ben does) that it's an error to assume that Christ's human intellect knew with absolute certainty that the Father had ordained that human salvation must be brought about in just this way. But second, even assuming that He did know this, surely His submission to the Father's Will against the inclinations of His own human will is, not a mark of disobedience, but part of his passion?

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  60. Ben:

    Luke renders it “Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done.” We must see the “possibility" as something that is linked to God’s Will. God via the divine freedom could have brought salvation by other means by willing otherwise from all eternity. I’ve been checking some commentaries Aquinas has one called the CATENA AUREA that is a compilation of the Fathers commentaries on the Gospels. One Father said Christ is giving himself as an example to future Martyrs who may pray for deliverance but only within God’s will.

    But the problem is that Christ knows God’s will, because God’s will is part of Christ’s will. So, he knows that God will his death, and he knows that once God has willed something, then it is impossible for things to turn out differently. Hence, hoping for something other than God’s will is a sign of disharmony between Christ’s will and God’s will. And I take that to be a mark of imperfect obedience, because perfect obedience would involve a perfect harmony between Christ’s wishes and choices and God’s wishes and will.

    Once it is revealed to Christ’s human intellect this is the divine will by denying his prayer Christ in his humanity knows it’s necessary. Christ is unique in that having two natures he Knows all and yet does not know all at the same time but in two different senses by two different natures.

    Exactly. It was revealed to Christ’s human intellect what the divine will was, and so any desire for an alternative course of action was in defiance of the divine will. It was a tacit admission that a better course of events would not involve his torture and suffering, which is an implied criticism of God’s will. Again, a sign of imperfect obedience.

    Rather his human intellect did not have that knowledge. Since will is informed by intellect then Christ’s human will can only act on info given to his human intellect. There is no reason to believe Christ’s human intellect knew definitively God would not provide another way till informed by the divine intellect.

    And this is another problem. An intellect does not know. A person knows via the intellect. Similarly, the eyes do not see, but rather a person sees via their eyes. Christ, the person, must have known the totality of divine knowledge and the totality of created knowledge. Unless you want to affirm the reality of two persons in Christ, one knowing divine knowledge and the other knowing created knowledge?

    How can knowing something like the divine uncreated will that can only come from divine revelation be an example of total knowledge of created things via a created intellect? That seems impossible. That is 2+2=5.

    It isn’t. That is why I made a distinction between divine knowledge and created knowledge, both of which were present in Christ in full actuality, and with no potentiality, as Aquinas has said.

    Where does Aquinas say Christ knows he may not ask the Father to let the cup pass from him? When did God imprint this knowledge & how do we know this happened? You must take this into account.

    If Christ knew what God’s will was, and knew that God’s will is irrevocable and unchanging, then he must have known that any alternative course of action was impossible, which means that that particular course of action was necessary. In other words, under those circumstances, there was a necessary connection between his torture and death and the goal of human salvation, and to hope for the absence of the former necessarily means a simultaneous rejection of the latter. Your position only makes sense if Christ did not know God’s will, but that would imply a split personality in Christ, one of which had access to divine knowledge and the other of which had access to created knowledge.

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  61. In his divine person he knew everything and did so even without having become incarnate. But his human intellect did not know everything except maybe potentially since the human intellect was united to the divine. But when and how the divine actualized the human intellect with the knowledge that Christ would definitely have to take up the Cross is critical. There is no reason to believe that didn’t happen till the Agoney in the Garden.

    That is wrong. Christ’s human intellect was fully actualized.

    Aquinas says that “the soul, considered in itself, is in potentiality to knowing intelligible things”, and that “what is in potentiality is imperfect unless reduced to act”, which means that “it was fitting that the Son of God should assume, not an imperfect, but a perfect human nature,” and thus “it behooved the soul of Christ to be perfected by a knowledge, which would be its proper perfection” (ST 3.9.1).

    Also: “Nothing imperfect was in Christ's soul. Now this knowledge of His would have been imperfect if He had not known all things by it, since the imperfect is that to which addition may be made. Hence Christ knew all things by this knowledge.” (ST 3.12.1).

    In other words, if Christ’s human nature was perfect, then it must be fully actualized, which means that Christ’s human intellect must also be fully actualized, and thus he must know “all things”, as Aquinas puts it. So, you cannot say that “his human intellect did not know everything except maybe potentially”.

    BTW in the (Summa Theologica Part Three Q46 Article 2) Aquinas does argue that it is possible for God to bring about human deliverance besides the Passion of Christ.

    No, he says that there are two senses of possibility in play here. One is possibility in the sense of absolute possibility, and another is the sense of possibility, given certain circumstances, of “from supposition”. And given the fact that there were numerous suppositions in play while Christ was in Gethsemane, it follows that supposing those circumstances, it was necessary that Christ must be tortured and die in order to save mankind.

    QUOTE"It is quite clear that, however perfect the human soul of Christ is, it always remains finite and limited; hence its knowledge cannot be unlimited and infinite."

    His human knowledge does not have to be infinite, but only complete and total.

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  62. @Bob:

    "It seems to me that this metaphysics is logically equivalent to hard determinism and that free will is therefore an illusion caused by the fact that we simply cannot see the future[.]"

    I don't wish to intrude on your exchange with Tony, but I don't at all understand your argument. Why does the existence of a First Cause entail hard determinism, and what does that supposed entailment have to do with "evil"?

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  63. >But the problem is that Christ knows God’s will, because God’s will is part of Christ’s will.

    Sorry but that looks like Monothelite heresy.

    Christ has two distinct wills.

    >That is wrong. Christ’s human intellect was fully actualized.

    But it's not exhaustive or infinite also his human intellect didn't know the time of the end.

    So there is no reason to believe he knows in his human intellect that God absolutely hasn't made a way apart from the cross and that it is somehow wrong to ask.

    I'll deal with the rest later in more detail.

    Cheers.

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  64. before I go to lunch.

    >But the problem is that Christ knows God’s will,

    In his divine person as the Word and divine nature as God, Christ knows God's will perfectly and infinitly since it is His own Divine will.

    But his human nature by definition cannot have exaustive infinite knowledge of the divine will.
    Christ's human will is moved by his human intellect subordinate to & in harmony with the divine will & Intellect.

    So unless God infused into the human intellect of Christ knowledge that he wouldn't even consider answering a prayer to "let the cup pass him by etc" or that it was wrong to ask then there is no reason to believe Christ had this knowledge.

    There is nothing in revelation or reason to prove it.

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  65. Ben:

    Sorry but that looks like Monothelite heresy.

    Christ has two distinct wills.


    Fine. He has two distinct wills, which means that he has knowledge of those two distinct wills. And that means that he knows what the divine will is, and that once the divine will is known, there is no changing it to will an alternative course of action.

    But it's not exhaustive or infinite also his human intellect didn't know the time of the end.

    As I wrote, that makes no sense to me. The person, Jesus Christ, knows the time of the end via the divine intellect, even though he did not know that fact via the human intellect. They are two independent streams of knowledge that find a union in the single knower.

    So there is no reason to believe he knows in his human intellect that God absolutely hasn't made a way apart from the cross and that it is somehow wrong to ask.

    He doesn’t have to know via his human intellect what God’s will is with certainty, but he does know via the divine intellect what God’s will is, because the divine intellect is the divine will. You keep confusing the means by which he knows with the knower himself. There is a single knower, which means that it is not the case that the Christ that knows created knowledge is distinct from the Christ that knows divine knowledge, which would have to be the case for the former to be unaware of what the latter knows. There is a single knower.

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  66. >Fine. He has two distinct wills, which means that he has knowledge of those two distinct wills. And that means that he knows what the divine will is, and that once the divine will is known, there is no changing it to will an alternative course of action.

    God's will is immutable but it can be conditional. God can will from all eternity to do A if you pray B if you don't pray B then he won't do A.

    But I don't have exhaustive knowledge of God's will so I don't know which of all the prayers I will utter to him in my lifetime he will answer and which he will not.

    God already knows all my prayers past, present and future and has resolved immutably which he will answer and which he will not.

    We must first accept that Christ whatever he is doing is not praying God change his immutable will. That is impossible like praying that adultery becomes permissible or 2+2=5.

    >As I wrote, that makes no sense to me. The person, Jesus Christ, knows the time of the end via the divine intellect, even though he did not know that fact via the human intellect. They are two independent streams of knowledge that find a union in the single knower.

    To which I invoke mystery. Hey if Nagel is right I can't know what it's like to be a mere bat. Good luck flesh and blood trying to figure what it is to be God or the Incarnate God-Man.

    But I think I see what you are saying. Why would the person of Jesus knowing in his divine person and divine nature he would have to undergo the cross allow his human intellect to move his human will to ask to be excused and allow redemption to be brought about some other way?

    Well all I can say is there are prayers I will utter in the future that God forsees and has already resolved not to answer. It doesn't put me against the will of God for me to one day utter then nor is it a sin to do so on my part.

    >He doesn’t have to know via his human intellect what God’s will is with certainty,

    Then there is nothing wrong with his human intellect moving his human will to pray "If it be your will..cup pass...etc". Just as there is nothing wrong with me praying for stuff God might from all eternity choose not to give me.

    >but he does know via the divine intellect what God’s will is, because the divine intellect is the divine will.

    Of course but He clearly permits his human intellect to move his human will to ask if there is another way to bring about redemption without him suffering but only if it is God's will and that whatever God will his human will resolves to do it come hell or high water.

    If it was against the divine will for him to even ask or if the divine will didn't want the human will to ask that info would have be infused into the human intellect by the divine will and Jesus would never have prayed the way he did because his human will was perfectly obedient.

    I hope this clears it up for you. I left some things hanging but I don't want to get bogged down.

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  67. >You keep confusing the means by which he knows with the knower himself.

    As a general knower the person of Jesus knew the prayer that sprung from his human will would be answered in the negative by the divine will. But clearly it was the divine will his will that his human will be permited to move him to pray it otherwise he would have infused the knowledge into his human intellect not to do so.

    >There is a single knower, which means that it is not the case that the Christ that knows created knowledge is distinct from the Christ that knows divine knowledge, which would have to be the case for the former to be unaware of what the latter knows. There is a single knower.

    I am not a Nestorian heretic. I don't believe in his Person Christ is in anyway ignorant of the Father's perfect will or that he is two people. He is a divine person only but He allowed His human intellect to move his human will to pray that prayer which His divine will answers in the negative.

    Just as omnicient as he is he allows his human body to stumble on the way to the Cross because his blurry human vision didn't see the rock he would trip over that his divinity knew was there but never the less permited him to stumble over.

    This is part of the great mystery. He isn't just fully divine he is fully human too.

    Anything I didn't answer you want to revisit?

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  68. >Also: “Nothing imperfect was in Christ's soul. Now this knowledge of His would have been imperfect if He had not known all things by it, since the imperfect is that to which addition may be made. Hence Christ knew all things by this knowledge.” (ST 3.12.1).

    Briefly that section refers to his acquired knowledge. That is can his human intellect learn anything? Aquinas says yes.

    Any divine revelation which Christ means to impart or teach to the Church & or knowledge of God above that of mere natural theological knowledge would have to come from infused knowledge.

    Any extra-ordinary content of the divine will (i.e. what prayers the almighty will answer etc) would have to come from infused knowledge.

    OTOH if Christ's human intellect doesn't know God absolutely won't make anyway for human salvation apart from the cross he can "acquire" that knowledge by praying "Father if it be you will etc.." and have the Father answer in the negative.

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  69. I'll shut up now give dguller time to think.

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  70. Ben:

    We must first accept that Christ whatever he is doing is not praying God change his immutable will. That is impossible like praying that adultery becomes permissible or 2+2=5.

    If he is not praying for God to change his will, then what is he praying for?

    Well all I can say is there are prayers I will utter in the future that God forsees and has already resolved not to answer. It doesn't put me against the will of God for me to one day utter then nor is it a sin to do so on my part.

    It would put you against God if you knew at the moment of prayer that what you prayed for was against God’s will. That is something that you, as a mere mortal, could not possibly know, but it is something that Christ, as a divine person, would certainly know via his divine intellect. So, since Christ knew God’s will was for him to be tortured and die, then asking God to avoid such an outcome was going against God’s will.

    Then there is nothing wrong with his human intellect moving his human will to pray "If it be your will..cup pass...etc". Just as there is nothing wrong with me praying for stuff God might from all eternity choose not to give me.

    But again, you are assuming that his intellect knows and his will wills, which is untrue. Christ, as a person, knows and wills, and he does so by using his intellect and will. Remember, the ear does not hear, and the eye does not see, but rather the person hears and sees by using the ear and eye as tools. You are committing the fallacy of composition here by ascribing properties of the whole (i.e. knowing and willing) to the parts (i.e. the intellect and the will).

    As a general knower the person of Jesus knew the prayer that sprung from his human will would be answered in the negative by the divine will. But clearly it was the divine will his will that his human will be permited to move him to pray it otherwise he would have infused the knowledge into his human intellect not to do so.

    So, you admit that Christ the person knew that his prayer couldn’t possibly be answered, because it went against the divine will, and yet he still prayed anyway.

    I am not a Nestorian heretic. I don't believe in his Person Christ is in anyway ignorant of the Father's perfect will or that he is two people. He is a divine person only but He allowed His human intellect to move his human will to pray that prayer which His divine will answers in the negative.

    The bottom line is that Christ knew that it was the divine will for him to suffer and die in order to save mankind, and yet Christ still asked to avoid that fate. You want to separate out his knowing and willing into his different parts, but that is not a move permitted by A-T. According to A-T, the whole person is what knows and wills, and so you can talk all you want about the underlying mechanics behind what the person does, but that does not change the fact that you cannot say that the underlying parts “know” or “will”, other than by an analogy.

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  71. Just as omnicient as he is he allows his human body to stumble on the way to the Cross because his blurry human vision didn't see the rock he would trip over that his divinity knew was there but never the less permited him to stumble over.

    That’s different. I agree that he could know and will himself to be in a position where he had to stumble and fall. That example is irrelevant to the issue of obedience. The issue is when Christ -- not his human will, not his divine will, but his whole person -- prayed to avoid his fate, he compromised the perfection of his obedience. He still obeyed in a magnificent fashion, but it wasn’t perfect, because of the disharmony between himself and the divine will when he knowingly asked for the impossible to occur, i.e. the divine will to be changed.

    Briefly that section refers to his acquired knowledge. That is can his human intellect learn anything? Aquinas says yes.

    No. It says that his intellect has no potency at all. He knows “all things”.

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  72. Scott:

    Certainly, and Objection 2 and its Reply are especially apposite.

    But given the divine will being set upon a certain course of action, that course of action could not be altered. And since Christ knew what that course of action was, the fact that he asked for it to be altered, even though he knew that it could not, means that he questioned the need for the means to the goal of human salvation. If one is commanded to do X in order to achieve Y, and one asks if X can be avoided, then I don’t see how one can be said to have perfect obedience. Perfect obedience involves accepted the need for both X and Y, because X and Y are both essential parts of the command itself.

    And I still fail to see why the hope that some different means might be employed amounts to a failure specifically of obedience.

    Again, it is because the command itself involves two components: the means, and the end. Both must be accepted in order for there to be perfect obedience. Accepting the end while questioning the means is a sign of imperfect obedience. For example, if a teacher instructs his students to read a text in order to understand a concept, then if a student questions the need to read that text at all, and wonders if there is a better text to study to understand the concept, then that student has undermined the teacher’s judgment by questioning the means. I do not know anyone who would say that the student who questioned the teacher is more perfect in their obedience than the student who follows the teacher unquestioningly.

    First of all, I think (as I gather Ben does) that it's an error to assume that Christ's human intellect knew with absolute certainty that the Father had ordained that human salvation must be brought about in just this way.

    As I’ve said, Christ’s human intellect, like all intellects, knows nothing. The person that has the intellect knows something. To ascribe knowledge of the intellect commits the fallacy of composition.

    But second, even assuming that He did know this, surely His submission to the Father's Will against the inclinations of His own human will is, not a mark of disobedience, but part of his passion?

    Even so, the fact that he questioned the judgment of the Father is a mark of imperfect obedience. Perfect obedience is unquestioning.

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  73. >If he is not praying for God to change his will, then what is he praying for?

    Is that your problem? You think prayer is done to change God’s immutable will? It isn’t, it is more to seek the will of God. Like I said God can will conditionally.

    >It would put you against God if you knew at the moment of prayer that what you prayed for was against God’s will.

    In addition to the brute dogmatic fact we don’t pray to change God’s immutable will. We don’t pray for what is intrinsically unreasonable, impossible or unlawful. So no prayers asking God for permission to commit adultery. But if I pray to him that it rain this Saturday and it doesn’t then obviously God did not grant that prayer. But if I am told by divine revelation “It will not rain this coming Saturday so don’t even ask. The LORD your God commands this ” then I would be against the will of God to ask at that point. I would be unlawful once he has pronounced His Law. OTOH given the example in the Bible if he tells me without qualifier “It will not rain this coming Saturday” there is no reason why like Lot bargaining with God over the fate of Sodom and Gomorra I could not appeal to him to seek if his will here is conditional(Lot “Well what if their are 50 righteous people in the cities will you spare it?”). Or Moses & God after the Golden Calf incident. God told Moses to withdraw from the people Israel so he could destroy them and make a great nation of Moses. Moses responded “Will you destroy the people you redeemed out of Egypt? Spare them or destroy me with them”. With that intercession God spared Israel from his wraith over the Golden Calf. This was part of God’s will that Israel needs an intercessor to save her from her sins.

    >That is something that you, as a mere mortal, could not possibly know, but it is something that Christ, as a divine person, would certainly know via his divine intellect.

    But his human intellect does not know that either & clearly God didn’t at anytime inform his human intellect it was unlawful to seek the divine will & ask if it is according to God’s will let the cup pass etc…..Otherwise it would be unlawful for me or anyone to every pray for something lawful that God see fit not to grant me. In which case it would be impossible to “pray aways” as God commanded us threw St Paul.

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  74. >So, since Christ knew God’s will was for him to be tortured and die, then asking God to avoid such an outcome was going against God’s will.

    Only if He asked according to his divine will which is logically absurd. One thing you can’t get around is that is would be nessisary for God to formally issue a divine decree to Christ’s human intellect and will not to ever ask such a thing. Then if he did it we would have a problem, But clearly God wouldn’t set his Incarnate Second Self up like that.

    >But again, you are assuming that his intellect knows and his will wills, which is untrue. Christ, as a person, knows and wills, and he does so by using his intellect and will.

    Knows and wills by which will? He still has two. Monothelite heresy was condemned by the first seven Ecumenical Councils. Sure as a divine person via his divine intellect Christ knows he must die. But obvious he didn’t tell his human nature that up front anymore then he told his human intellect the day and the hour of the end of days. Obviously it was God’s will that this be the case and Christ in his human nature by his human will pray what he prayed. If it wasn’t his will then he would have told the divine intellect up front such a prayer was unlawful.

    >Remember, the ear does not hear, and the eye does not see, but rather the person hears and sees by using the ear and eye as tools. You are committing the fallacy of composition here by ascribing properties of the whole (i.e. knowing and willing) to the parts (i.e. the intellect and the will).

    I don’t think I am. I think you might be mixing the two natures which is against the Infallible dogmas of Pope Leo the Great. I can’t and don’t believe the Holy Spirit would let him be wrong here. The two natures are in union in the divine person but they don’t mix or are confused.

    >So, you admit that Christ the person knew that his prayer couldn’t possibly be answered, because it went against the divine will, and yet he still prayed anyway.

    To be against the divine will the human intellect would have to know God absolutely wills A and the human will wills Not A. Clearly his human intellect didn’t know that & clearly it wasn’t against the divine will for that will to ask. Anymore then it’s against the divine will for me to pray for lawful things God knows and resolves from all eternity not to grant me.

    This prayer from Christ didn’t come from the divine will otherwise your point would make sense.


    >The bottom line is that Christ knew that it was the divine will for him to suffer and die in order to save mankind, and yetChrist still asked to avoid that fate.

    We can’t have a rational discussion dguller if you don’t qualify your statements. Christ in his divine Intellect & will knew he would have to die. But he clearly didn’t communicate to his human will that it was absolutely impossible & thus he permitted his human will to move him to ask. Just as Christ in his divine will knows all the prays I will make to him that he won’t grant & yet he permits me to ask them.

    It that simple.

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  75. BTW I want to put this in bold. I don't want a repeat of the past since it is Lent. I don't want to respond in anger if dguller doesn't right away get it.
    also I apologize for the long posts. I don't want to overwhelm dguller or play a game of who can post the most and get the last word. I really want him to understand the doctrine. Not believe I will let the holy spirit do that. But I want him to understand & I will walk away if I fail and leave it to Scott or Brandon to pick up the slack.

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  76. To continue:
    > You want to separate out his knowing and willing into his different parts, but that is not a move permitted by A-T.

    Aquinas was an orthodox Catholic. You will seek in vain any claim in any of his writings didn’t uphold the teaching of Pope St Leo or that it was in anyway unlawful for the divine will to permit the human will to pray for the cup to pass. dguller you can give me your interpretation of Aquinas but I will only interpret what he says in light of Catholic doctrine. I seen Lutherans try to convince me Aquinas taught Sola Fide but it does violence to his Catholic beliefs. Aquinas by definition could not agree with you here.

    > According to A-T, the whole person is what knows and wills, and so you can talk all you want about the underlying mechanics behind what the person does, but that does not change the fact that you cannot say that the underlying parts “know” or “will”, other than by an analogy.

    But I am not claiming Jesus doesn’t know in his divine person(thus by his divine nature, intellect & will) God wills his death. I am claiming his human intellect doesn’t know and he can permit that intellect to move his human will to pray this lawful prayer. If it was otherwise then he would have infused this Law that he can’t pray that prayer into the human intellect.

    This is the doctrine. Anything else is heresy. I won’t defend heresy or entertain any idea Catholic doctrine really teaches other then what I know it teaches.

    Chalcedonian theology 101. So far you have been giving me Monothelite or monophysite Christology which I won’t even entertain.

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  77. >>Just as omnicient as he is he allows his human body to stumble on the way to the Cross because his blurry human vision didn't see the rock he would trip over that his divinity knew was there but never the less permited him to stumble over.

    >That’s different. I agree that he could know and will himself to be in a position where he had to stumble and fall. That example is irrelevant to the issue of obedience.

    He could also Know & will that his human will make a lawful request that he has resolved from all eternity not to grant. If he willed otherwise he would have infused this knowledge into His human intellect then it would have been unlawful for his human will to even ask & he wouldn't..


    >The issue is when Christ -- not his human will, not his divine will, but his whole person —

    This still smacks of Monophysite heresy. Christ’s human nature doesn’t mix with his divine so as too confuse the two. They both remain distinct. That is the dogma and no other view of the incarnation will be intertwined by me. Why? Because I only want to explain Catholic doctrine to you not other then Catholic doctrine. Why waste each others time eh?

    >>Briefly that section refers to his acquired knowledge. That is can his human intellect learn anything? Aquinas says yes.


    >No. It says that his intellect has no potency at all. He knows “all things”.

    Then why does the title of this summa say “acquired and empirical knowledge”? Dude I’ve read Ott & Denzinger I know what this all means.

    "“Nothing imperfect was in Christ's soul. Now this knowledge of His would have been imperfect if He had not known all things by it, since the imperfect is that to which addition may be made. Hence Christ knew all things by this knowledge.”

    This simply means Christ’s human intellect had the true power to acquire natural knowledge and it didn’t lack that faculty.

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  78. dguller I hope some of my bad grammar doesn't confuse you.

    edit:Obviously it was God’s will that this be the case and Christ in his human nature by his human will pray what he prayed. If it wasn’t his will then he would have told the human intellect up front such a prayer was unlawful.

    We need to find a way to shorten this.

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  79. >Perfect obedience is unquestioning.

    We Catholics don't make that assumption at all nor hold that definition. For us perfect obedience merely means you always do the will of the one who has authority over you.

    Christ never disobeyed the Father. Even asking for the cup to pass him by he did so within God's will.

    We absolutely believe you can question and perfectly obey. If we couldn't then Jesus wouldn't have been born a Jew(aka a Israelite from the tribe of Judah via David) he would have been a Israelite from the sole survivor of the Tribe of Levi aka Moses.

    I'll shut up now & when the time is right I will let dguller have the last word if I fail to explain all this too him.

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  80. Let me add this small bit I can't help myself.

    >But given the divine will being set upon a certain course of action, that course of action could not be altered.

    Only because God’s will is immutable & one God has willed A from all eternity he cannot will Not A. But even Christ as God in his divine intellect knew He could have from all eternity willed B instead of A & or Not A via his divine freedom.

    >And since Christ knew what that course of action was, the fact that he asked for it to be altered, even though he knew that it could not, means that he questioned the need for the means to the goal of human salvation.

    Rather Christ permitted His human intellect which did not know this course of action to move his human will to seek if God had willed conditionally & would thus permit him to bring about redemption without dying since death was adverse to his human nature. So Christ human will asked in obedience to the divine will and with the intention of submission to it regardless of the answer.

    I really don’t see the problem?

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  81. Anyone who wishes to discuss Catholic doctrine on the knowledge of Jesus Christ should read this link.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08675a.htm

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  82. Obedience which is perfect may be unquestioning, but that obedience is unquestioning is not what makes it perfect.

    According to Aquinas, what makes obedience perfect is that it "obeys in all things lawful". This says nothing about how lawful things are obeyed, only that they are obeyed.

    Also according to Aquinas, that obedience is indiscreet which "obeys even in matters unlawful."

    Now, if a person is commanded to do something unlawful, and that person's obedience is unquestioning, then that person will unquestioningly do that unlawful something. Such obedience, however, though unquestioning, clearly is not perfect. It is, rather, indiscreet.

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  83. @Scott


    I don't wish to intrude on your exchange with Tony, but I don't at all understand your argument. Why does the existence of a First Cause entail hard determinism, and what does that supposed entailment have to do with "evil"?

    If the First Cause is an timeless, purely actual and the per se sustaining cause, then hard determinism seems to follow necessarily.

    Timeless means unchanging. Any change requires time and anything in time must change simply due to the change in the time coordinate, if nothing else. Pure actuality could not change, even in principle. Thus everything "caused" by this First Cause is "caused" eternally. The First Cause sustains temporal existence moment by moment, thus must sustain all moments eternally.

    Therefore it would seems that all of creation is necessarily co-eternal with the First Cause. Everything that ever was, is, or will be exists and has existed eternally.

    For creation, each moment of reality is as the frame of a movie, playing out one after another, but for the First Cause, all of temporal reality exists on a single eternal frame, (- nothing could have been, is, or will be any different than it has eternally been -) and free will is, therefore, an illusion caused by the fact of our temporal existence.

    I was not really talking about evil in our temporal existence, which would seem to have been pre-determined anyway.

    At least, that is what I think follows.

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  84. Glenn writes:
    >According to Aquinas, what makes obedience perfect is that it "obeys in all things lawful". This says nothing about how lawful things are obeyed, only that they are obeyed.

    Thanks for the assist dude.

    The only way Christ's prayer can be disobedient is if he does what is unlawful. It is obviously the will of God for his human will to cause him to pray that prayer. Because if God did not want him to do so then Christ's human intellect would have been infused with a command not to do it.

    It's that simple.

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  85. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. - Ubiquitous AA version of the Serenity Prayer

    God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other. - Serenity Prayer published by Reinhold Niebuhr 1943

    Father, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what cannot be helped, and the insight to know the one from the other. - First version of Serenity Prayer attributed to Niebuhr 1937

    For every ailment under the sun, there is a remedy, or there is none; if there be one, try to find it; if there be none, never mind it. - Mother Goose rhyme 1695

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  86. Ben:

    I’m just going to focus upon three points that we disagree upon.

    First, whether someone who obeys a command without question and without doubt is more perfect than someone who obeys a command while questioning and doubting their commander in the process. That is not to say that there are times where doubt is valid, but the presence of doubt and questioning certainly seems to compromise the obedience itself by introducing disharmony. So, I’d like to ask you, if (a) you have two children, A and B, (b) you ask them to do X, (c) A and B both do X, but (d) A questions and doubts and complains about X, while B simply does X without question or doubt or complaint, then would say that A and B are equally obedient?

    Second, it has long been my understanding that the faculties by which a person engages in certain activities are simply the means by which the person does those activities, which means that predicating the activities can only be done of the person, and not the faculties. For example, the eye does not see, but rather the eye is the faculty by which the person sees. Similarly, the intellect does not know, but rather the intellect is the faculty by which the person knows. In other words, parts of a person cannot be said to believe, know, see, hear, and so on, but only the whole person can be said to do those activities. So, it makes no sense for you to say that Christ’s human intellect knew this and knew that, which was different from what his divine intellect knew, because his intellects did not know anything at all. Only Christ, as the person with the faculties in question, could know anything, and so the question is how Christ, as a whole person, could know X and not know X at the same time.

    Third, I have provided arguments in support of the position that Christ knew everything about creation, because if he did not, then his human nature would not be fully actualized. And this is because a person’s human nature is fully actualized when their human intellect is fully actualized, which only occurs when that intellect knows everything there is to know for a human intellect. To admit potency in Christ’s intellect is to admit imperfection in his nature. That is why Aquinas says that Christ must know “all things” about creation.

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  87. That is straight too the point.

    Thanks.

    I'll give it a mull then answer you tonight before I go kill some Imperials Online.

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  88. @Bob:

    Thanks for the clarification. Just a couple of brief comments:

    "Any change requires time and anything in time must change simply due to the change in the time coordinate, if nothing else."

    In A-T terms this is the wrong way around; time is itself a measure of change. The right way to put it is that any time requires change.

    "[E]verything 'caused' by this First Cause is 'caused' eternally."

    True, but that includes change, time, and an entire universe of secondary causes. Change, time, and causation are not unreal merely through being caused eternally.

    "Therefore it would seems that all of creation is necessarily co-eternal with the First Cause. Everything that ever was, is, or will be exists and has existed eternally."

    In one sense this is true, and in fact I've argued that some version of eternalism must be true if temporal relations are real. But I also think temporal relations are real and time doesn't simply reduce without remainder to timelessness.

    Moreover, even if it did, I don't think determinism would follow. That the future was determinate wouldn't mean that it was determined in the sense required for determinism.

    What I think Tony is getting at is that human volition is neither "deterministic" nor sheerly random. And if he's right that there's a third possibility of ewhich modern philosophy takes no account, then "determinism" doesn't follow from the eternal "determinateness" of the future. Secondary causation is entirely real, for you just as for the gravitational effects of a rock; when you make a decision, you're really making a decision, even if God has deliberately made a world of which that decision is eternally a part. His Will operates through yours, not "around" it.

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  89. Let’s start from three.

    >Third, I have provided arguments in support of the position that Christ knew everything about creation, because if he did not, then his human nature would not be fully actualized. ….etc...To admit potency in Christ’s intellect is to admit imperfection in his nature. That is why Aquinas says that Christ must know “all things” about creation.

    I remember back in the day reading in Ott that it was the general opinion of most Theologians that Christ’s human intellect was infused with all natural/created knowledge based on the argument of it being fitting. Aquinas would say Christ's human intellect would not lack any knowledge a human intellect could naturally know & thus it contained no ignorance in terms of lacking created knowledge. But I contend that things like the Knowledge of the Time of the End of Days or the knowledge of wither or not God has willed absolutely or conditionality in a particular instance are not any type of created or natural knowledge. They are not something a human intellect could know by it’s own natural powers but rather are knowledge that can only be imparted supernaturally by divine revelation. If it was against the divine will to allow the human will of Christ moved by his human intellect to seek God’s Will in terms of the Cup passing etc. then that knowledge would have been imparted to the human intellect of Christ. There is no reason for me to believe his human intellect had the knowledge that God’s will here was absolute & not conditional. Otherwise he simply would not have prayed as he did in the Garden of Gethsemane if he knew the divine will didn’t want him too.

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  90. Now let’s do two.

    >Second, it has long been my understanding that the faculties by which a person engages in certain activities are simply the means by which the person does those activities, which means that predicating the activities can only be done of the person, and not the faculties.

    I agree but let us consider this in terms of orthodox Chalcedonian Christology. Let us ask one question how can a divine person who has two distinct natures one fully divine & other fully human perform divine acts by a mere human nature? I submit even a divine person cannot do that anymore then God can make 2+2=5. A person acts and the nature is that by which a person acts(see Frank Sheed). A nature has powers pertaining to it and the person who has & operates that nature uses those powers. Well the divine person of the Incarnate Word can use his human nature to build a house like a good carpenter. But can the divine person of the word via the operations of his human nature create Ex Nihilo? No He cannot He can only do that via the operations of his divine nature.

    >So, it makes no sense for you to say that Christ’s human intellect knew…

    I was using the common wording in the online CE quote"Jesus Christ might be wise by the wisdom ofGod; yet the humanity of Christ knows by its own mental act.”. The old online 1917 CE is heavily influenced if not bias toward Thomistic Scholasticism so I don’t think my usage here improper. Still if you prefer your precise use I think I might be able to accommodate you.

    >Only Christ, as the person with the faculties in question, could know anything, and so the question is how Christ, as a whole person, could know X and not know X at the same time.

    Well first terms like “whole person” are incoherent when applied to the divine person of the word since as God Christ is physically & metaphysically simple. We should just say divine person. There is no “whole” as if there could be a “part”. So let us rephrase this in terms Pope St Leo would approve of "Christ, as the person with the faculties in question, could know anything by the powers of those faculties, and so the question is how Christ, as a divine person, could know X and not know X at the same time?”

    Answer: By the operations of his divine nature he can know X but by the operations of his human nature it is impossible for him in principle to know X by the natural powers of the human nature alone that which only a divine nature may know and make known to creatures by divine revelation. The divine person of Jesus can choose to operate solely according to his human nature, intellect and will. The prayer from the agony in the garden as Aquinas says in his commentary CATENA AUREA originates solely in his human nature alone(with permission of his divine will). So even thought Christ by the operations of his divine nature knows the absolute divine will was he had to die by the operations of his human will he may lawfully pray “If it be your will let this cup pass etc”

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  91. Finally one.

    >So, I’d like to ask you, if (a) you have two children, A and B, (b) you ask them to do X, (c) A and B both do X, but (d) A questions and doubts and complains about X, while B simply does X without question or doubt or complaint, then would say that A and B are equally obedient?

    Well if one of my children says “Dad if it be your will I would rather accomplish Y without doing X but it’s not what I want that matters to me but what you want which I will do regardless” I really can’t coherently see how such a child is being in anyway disobedient to me?
    I would be proud of her/him if I knew they where sincere.

    OTOH If I first told my kids “Neither of you may be excused from X under any circumstances so don’t even ask” then I would consider the question an act of insubordinate insolent sucking up & I would let the kid have it.

    I am forced to agree with Glenn. Perfect obedience means obedience to all things lawful without failure to obey. If five year old Jesus was being watched by an older cousin who told him to throw a rock at somebody he would not be disobedient to say “That would be wrong I cannot do that & that is against the will of my Father in Heaven. So repent Yachov or I will tell my Mom.”

    (Just a little levidy) Now my wife is nagging me for the computer. (when she is a sleep I will do the MMORPG thingy)

    Cheers & Peace.

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  92. Ben,

    Thanks for the assist dude.

    Any time (I can).

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  93. Step2,

    That is a neatly arranged series of variations. Methinks I'll now have to look up Mother Goose, see what other golden eggs she may have laid.

    In keeping with the central theme of distancing oneself from indiscreet obedience, and acquiring and/or having and exercising discernment, discretion, prudence, etc., the following from Ralph Waldo may be inserted -- (but only parenthetically) – between Mother Goose and Niebuhr 1937:

    Draw, if thou canst, the mystic line,
    Severing rightly his from thine,
    Which is human, which divine.

    -- Emerson, 1860

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  94. @Scott

    In A-T terms this is the wrong way around; time is itself a measure of change. The right way to put it is that any time requires change.

    Acceptable.

    True, but that includes change, time, and an entire universe of secondary causes. Change, time, and causation are not unreal merely through being caused eternally.

    Again, acceptable. I never meant to imply that change, time, or causation are unreal. Obviously, relative to temporal being, they are very real.

    That the future was determinate wouldn't mean that it was determined in the sense required for determinism.

    This may be more of a question of semantics than an issue fact. What I mean when I use the word determined is that nothing could be any different than it was, is, or will be. Everything that happens, happens necessarily due to the nature of the First Cause itself.

    I am not positing intentionality on the part of the First Cause, as I do not think intentionality necessarily follows, as of yet.

    When I say determined, I do not mean something like 'planned in advanced'. I mean absolutely necessary, as in it could be no other way, even in principle.

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  95. Third, I have provided arguments in support of the position that Christ knew everything about creation, because if he did not, then his human nature would not be fully actualized. And this is because a person’s human nature is fully actualized when their human intellect is fully actualized, which only occurs when that intellect knows everything there is to know for a human intellect. To admit potency in Christ’s intellect is to admit imperfection in his nature. That is why Aquinas says that Christ must know “all things” about creation.

    I don't think so. There is more than one interpretation of the passage in Luke "And He grew in wisdom, age, and grace."

    Clearly, with respect to His human body, he changed. His body was born as that of a baby, a baby is not the mature form, the "final" end goal of human nature, it is immature. Christ grew in his physical form because that is natural to humans.

    With regard to His intellect, He may be supposed to have infused knowledge that is "complete", but one thing infused knowledge cannot do is give experiential knowledge. They are distinct. (As an example, an experienced carpenter can judge certain measurements rightly just by looking, because he has done the over and over and has absorbed into his practical intellect the effects of those repeated estimative events. Similarly, an experienced race driver can tell by g-forces alone when he is close to the limit of skidding out, not by working out the formulas for pounds per sq. inch of tire surface area divided by...) Some of the saints say that Christ's intellect was perfected in experiential knowledge by living, even though His human intellect already perfected IN SOME SENSE by infused knowledge.

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  96. There is spiritual obedience, and there is practical obedience.

    Let's take it from the top:

    1. Spiritual obedience ("Thy will, not mine, be done", i.e., God-driven obedience)

    From one translation of Aquinas' Compendium of Theology (Chapter 227, last para):

    o [T]he more difficult are the precepts one obeys, the more praiseworthy is the obedience.

    From another translation:

    o [T]he more one is obedient in more difficult things, the more praiseworthy the obedience is.

    One can almost hear Someone posing the rhetorical question: If ye obey when obeying is easy as pie, what reward have ye? **


    2. Practical obedience ("My will, not thine, be done", i.e., human-driven obedience)

    Summarizing what is not infrequently seen in matters wherein the practical seems to have the ascendancy over the spiritual, such as in: a) the running of a household; b) the managing of an office; or, c) the commanding of a military outfit:

    o The greater the alacrity with which a subordinate obeys, the more pleased is the master issuing the order.

    Here, one can imagine another saying, "If you can't hop to it, buster, then you'd better: a) go to your room; b) find another job; or, c) transfer out of my unit.


    - - - - -

    I've little doubt that this, or something like it, is what Scott was getting at when he wrote (above, on this page (March 31, 2014 at 11:54 AM)):

    In fact I seem to see a "higher" (if that's the right word) obedience in (3) than in (2). After all, in (2) X is something the agent would have been happy to do anyway.

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  97. I've already attempted a clarification, but it hasn't shown up. To put it a different way, then, my quoting of Scott is in relation to "1. Spiritual Obedience".

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  98. @Glenn:

    "I've little doubt that this, or something like it, is what Scott was getting at[.]"

    You are correct, sir. Thank you.

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  99. Ben:

    Well the divine person of the Incarnate Word can use his human nature to build a house like a good carpenter. But can the divine person of the word via the operations of his human nature create Ex Nihilo? No He cannot He can only do that via the operations of his divine nature.

    I don’t see how any of this is relevant. My argument is that Christ, as a person knew both all divine knowledge via the divine intellect and all created knowledge via the human intellect. It is irrelevant to say that Christ could not know the divine will via his human intellect. Since he knew the divine will via the divine intellect, it follows that Christ knew the divine will. To argue otherwise would be like arguing that since Christ sees a rose via his eyes and smells a rose via his nose, it follows that Christ could not see a rose if he also smelled a rose. He can do both, because each is a different faculty, and it is Christ as a person who sees and smells, albeit via different faculties.

    The divine person of Jesus can choose to operate solely according to his human nature, intellect and will.

    So, Christ can turn off his divine intellect? How does one de-actualize pure act? The reality is that the divine intellect, being coextensive with pure act, is always engaging in its characteristic activity, and this remains with respect to Christ. Hence, his divine intellect is in act at all times during his life, which means that even while he is exercising his human intellect, his divine intellect is still operative.

    The prayer from the agony in the garden as Aquinas says in his commentary CATENA AUREA originates solely in his human nature alone(with permission of his divine will). So even thought Christ by the operations of his divine nature knows the absolute divine will was he had to die by the operations of his human will he may lawfully pray “If it be your will let this cup pass etc”

    I think that best that you can do is to call his human knowledge, knowledge1, and his divine knowledge, knowledge2, and so he can know2 the divine will, but cannot know1 the divine will. But it still follows that Christ knew2 the divine will, even if he also knew1 created knowledge via his human intellect. That divine knowledge does not just go away, even if he chooses to also exercise his human intellect. Similarly, just because I can take a deep inhale to focus upon the smell of a rose, as long as I’m still looking at it, I also see it. It makes absolutely no sense to say that because the two senses operate via different faculties, while one is active, the other is necessarily inactive. Rather, if the faculties are active, then they are both active, and that activity is predicated of the person, and not just the faculties themselves.

    Well if one of my children says “Dad if it be your will I would rather accomplish Y without doing X but it’s not what I want that matters to me but what you want which I will do regardless” I really can’t coherently see how such a child is being in anyway disobedient to me?
I would be proud of her/him if I knew they where sincere.

    That’s not what I asked you. I said if you have two children, both of whom obey your commands, but one does so unquestioningly and without doubt, and the other questions you and doubts whether you are correct, then would you say that they are both equally obedient?

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  100. Glenn:

    [T]he more difficult are the precepts one obeys, the more praiseworthy is the obedience.

    First, it would then seem to follow that the more resistance a person experiences while obeying a divine command, the more perfect the act of obedience. So, someone who loved God with all his heart, and obeyed his commands with gladness and joy, would be inferior to someone who hated God and obeyed his commands with extreme reluctance and complaining, because the latter obeys with a higher level of resistance to the divine commands.

    Second, according to my knowledge of A-T, a thing is more perfect the less resistance it experiences. For example, a person with two legs walks with more ease than a person with one leg, and yet you wouldn’t say that the former is a more perfect example of a human being than the latter. Rather, perfection involves the optimal function and operation with no resistance or disharmony.

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  101. dguller,

    >> [T]he more difficult are the precepts one obeys, the more
    >> praiseworthy is the obedience.

    > First, it would then seem to follow that the more resistance
    > a person experiences while obeying a divine command,
    > the more perfect the act of obedience.

    Aquinas is not talking about perfection in that quote, let alone perfection in connection with obedience.

    So, if it is "[T]he more difficult are the precepts one obeys, the more praiseworthy is the obedience" to which you are responding, then what does seems to follow is that the greater the resistance a person overcomes in obeying a divine command, the more praiseworthy the act of obedience.

    > Second, according to my knowledge of A-T, a thing is
    > more perfect the less resistance it experiences.

    A thing is perfect to the extent its potential is actualized. (Or, as Aquinas puts it in ST I-I Q 3, A 2, ad. 2, "[A] thing is perfect in so far as it is actual".)

    > For example, a person with two legs walks with more ease
    > than a person with one leg, and yet you wouldn’t say that
    > the former is a more perfect example of a human being
    > than the latter. Rather, perfection involves the optimal
    > function and operation with no resistance or disharmony.

    By the criteria you advance -- and hopefully do not hold to -- the two-legged person who thumbs his nose at divine commands and willing indulges in lusts is a "more perfect example of a human being" than the one-legged person who habitually follows divines commands and rarely succumbs to concupiscence.

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  102. The citation is inaccurate; s/b...

    (Or, as Aquinas puts it in ST I-I Q 3, A 2, "[A] thing is perfect in so far as it is actual".)

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  103. I'll get back to you tonight dguller.

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  104. @Glenn and Ben
    I reject any distracting suggestion about indiscreet obedience and unlawful directive since Jesus received that directive from his own divine nature. If Jesus could question or be confused about his own divine will to that extent, which by definition is the law and good, it creates a theologically untenable position. The only legitimate option is to propose that Jesus thought there was an alternative method to the same end despite the fact he had alluded to his own death and resurrection multiple times.

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  105. dguller
    >I don’t see how any of this is relevant. My argument is that Christ, as a person knew both all divine knowledge via the divine intellect and all created knowledge via the human intellect. It is irrelevant to say that Christ could not know the divine will via his human intellect.

    It’s relevant because a person acts according to a nature. Christ is a divine person who has two natures & he cannot act in a divine manner via his limited human nature. He can only act in a human manner via his human nature even as a divine person. There is no reason to believe his human intellect fully knew his divine will like his divine intellect knew it.

    The prayer he uttered in Luke 22 & Matt 26 came from his human nature only via his human intellect moving his human will alone. Unless his human intellect knows his divine will is absolute and not conditional in this case then it makes sense for his human intellect to move his human will to enquire of the divine will via this prayer. The only role the divine intellect and will play here is the DI foresaw the human intellect moving the human will to this course and the DW permitted it. If God in the divine will did not want it so then that a law would have via divine providence be infused into the human intellect of Christ informing it not to ever ask such a question or pray such a prayer in the first place.

    >Since he knew the divine will via the divine intellect, it follows that Christ knew the divine will.

    If you go back and read my earlier posts you will see I don’t deny this I presume it. But let us cut to the case so as not to get bogged down.

    > it follows that Christ could not see a rose if he also smelled a rose. He can do both, because each is a different faculty,

    It would be the Arian Heresy to deny Christ as God can fully know the divine will via the divine intellect. But obviously even Christ in hi human nature can’t smell the image of a flower or see the odor with his eyes. Nor can he know the full divine will with his human intellect sans receiving any infused knowledge to that effect. I can choose to smell a rose without really looking at it but that doesn’t mean I am automatically blind if I choose to act using one faculty.

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  106. >So, Christ can turn off his divine intellect?

    No as God he always from all eternity knows he as has absolutely willed the Cross and has not wiled it conditionally. You almost seem to understand this:

    QUOTE"I think that best that you can do is to call his human knowledge, knowledge1, and his divine knowledge, knowledge2, and so he can know2 the divine will, but cannot know1 the divine will. But it still follows that Christ knew2 the divine will, even if he also knew1 created knowledge via his human intellect.”

    Exactly but then your real question is “Even thought as God, Christ knows he has absolutely willed the cross why would he allow his human intellect to move his human will to seek if his divine will here was conditional?” Well there is no reason why he can’t do that or shouldn’t do that anymore then he can or should allow me to pray for things he foresees me praying for that he resolves in the divine will not to give me.

    > Rather, if the faculties are active, then they are both active, and that activity is predicated of the person, and not just the faculties themselves.

    True but the faculties don’t mix or are confused. Christ in his divinity is omniscient but not in his humanity. That his humanity isn’t omniscient

    >That’s not what I asked you. I said if you have two children, both of whom obey your commands, but one does so unquestioningly and without doubt, and the other questions you and doubts whether you are correct, then would you say that they are both equally obedient?

    Well dguller I assume what your asking me about my own children is analogous to what is going on between the Incarnate Son of God and God the Father in Luke 22 & Matt26. So to spell it out plainly I took the words and sentiments of Christ & put them into the mouth of my child and concluded he was no less obedient then the one who didn’t say squat. I naturally don’t assume Christ was doubting nor questioning in a insolent manner. Also I with glenn define perfect obedience solely in terms of lawful obedience.

    Cheers.

    PS. Maybe one more round between us & if you still don’t get what I am saying I will leave you the last word and hope Brandon chimes in.

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  107. @Step2

    >I reject any distracting suggestion about indiscreet obedience and unlawful directive since Jesus received that directive from his own divine nature.

    If you mean as God he infused lawful directives into his human intellect so he knew perfectly via his human nature what he could and could not do, say or pray then we are in agreement.

    >If Jesus could question or be confused about his own divine will to that extent, which by definition is the law and good, it creates a theologically untenable position.

    I don’t see how? As God he can let you and I lawfully pray for lawful things he will say no too so why can’t he extend this liberty to his own human nature?

    >The only legitimate option is to propose that Jesus thought there was an alternative method to the same end despite the fact he had alluded to his own death and resurrection multiple times.

    As God he knew he could have freely willed from all eternity to save mankind without the Cross & as a human he naturally knew God could have willed in such a manner but not know if his will here was conditional or absolute till he asked in prayer.

    Besides the Prophet Jonah preached the conditional will of God in regards to the distraction of Minivah.

    Had the people not repented Minivah would have been toast much like the Israelites after the golden cafe thingy had Moses not interceded to God.

    It's not hard my friend.

    Cheers.

    Now I have some Imperial Scum to fight! Long Live the Galactic Republic!!! Long Live the Jedi!

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  108. Ben:

    It’s relevant because a person acts according to a nature. Christ is a divine person who has two natures & he cannot act in a divine manner via his limited human nature. He can only act in a human manner via his human nature even as a divine person. There is no reason to believe his human intellect fully knew his divine will like his divine intellect knew it.

    What you said makes as much sense as someone asking if Christ could see a rose, and you replying with: “But he can’t see the rose with his ears”. And someone replies, “Yes, I agree, but I’m talking about Christ’s eyes, and Christ certain can see the rose with his eyes.” And you reply with: “But he can’t see the rose with his ears.” Nobody is saying that Christ knew the divine will with his human intellect, just as nobody is saying that Christ sees a rose with his ears. What I am saying is that Christ knew the divine will with his divine intellect, and Christ as a person had that knowledge, which he could not just hide from himself, unless you want to say that Christ did not know the divine will at all at some times in his life?

    It would be the Arian Heresy to deny Christ as God can fully know the divine will via the divine intellect. But obviously even Christ in hi human nature can’t smell the image of a flower or see the odor with his eyes. Nor can he know the full divine will with his human intellect sans receiving any infused knowledge to that effect. I can choose to smell a rose without really looking at it but that doesn’t mean I am automatically blind if I choose to act using one faculty.

    Okay, so you reject the position that Christ, at any time, did not know the divine will, which means that in Gethsemane, he knew the divine will with his divine intellect, and yet prayed for a course of action that contradicted the divine will. That is the bottom line, and it is irrelevant to reply that he did not know the divine will with his human intellect. Nobody is claiming that. What I am claiming is that he knew the divine will with his divine intellect, and thus Christ the person had that knowledge at the moment of his prayer in Gethsemane. And if he knowingly prayed for something that went against the divine will, then that surely is a mark of imperfect obedience.

    Exactly but then your real question is “Even thought as God, Christ knows he has absolutely willed the cross why would he allow his human intellect to move his human will to seek if his divine will here was conditional?” Well there is no reason why he can’t do that or shouldn’t do that anymore then he can or should allow me to pray for things he foresees me praying for that he resolves in the divine will not to give me.

    That is not the question. The issue is whether his questioning and doubting what he knew to be the divine will, even though he ultimately followed the divine will, was a sign of imperfect obedience. In other words, if he did not question and doubt, then would his obedience have been more perfect than if he questioned and doubted? That is the question.

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  109. Well dguller I assume what your asking me about my own children is analogous to what is going on between the Incarnate Son of God and God the Father in Luke 22 & Matt26. So to spell it out plainly I took the words and sentiments of Christ & put them into the mouth of my child and concluded he was no less obedient then the one who didn’t say squat. I naturally don’t assume Christ was doubting nor questioning in a insolent manner. Also I with glenn define perfect obedience solely in terms of lawful obedience.

    Fair enough. I find that highly counterintuitive, though. It seems that the Bible associates doubt with imperfect obedience. For example, Christ said, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt” (Matthew 21:21). And Paul wrote that “whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin” (Romans 14:23). In other words, doubt is associated with sin, which is associated with imperfect obedience, or even disobedience. So, again, if Christ knew his Father’s will by virtue of sharing the divine intellect and divine knowledge identical to it, then by praying to the Father to change his will, he simultaneously doubted and questioned the divine will, which is a sin.

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  110. dguller

    As per usual I'll again answer you tonight.

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  111. dguller,

    You to Ben: The issue is whether his questioning and doubting what he knew to be the divine will, even though he ultimately followed the divine will, was a sign of imperfect obedience. In other words, if he did not question and doubt, then would his obedience have been more perfect than if he questioned and doubted? That is the question.

    Pardon my intruding, once again, but the question has been answered several times already -- by multiple people, including Ben, in various ways. I'll provide two more answers -- one short answer, and one long, albeit oblique, answer.

    Short answer: No.

    Long, albeit oblique, answer (after which I'll say no more on the matter (but will read Ben's own answer later on)):

    Three things: a) both A and B take the same one page, 20-question fill-in-the-blank exam; b) both A and B answer each question correctly, and, c) since both A and B answer each question correctly, both A and B receive a perfect score of 100%.

    Let's now consider the two exams, not in light of the perfect score attributed to each, but in light of other factors.

    A needs only five minutes to complete the exam, and his penmanship is more than acceptable. His test paper is unwrinkled, unfolded, uncreased and uncrumbled, and is fully intact. His test paper also contains no cross-outs, write overs, or evidence of erasure. And there are no markings, notes or scribblings in the margins, between the lines or on the back.

    Otoh...

    B needs all of forty minutes to complete the exam, and his penmanship is not more than barely legible. His test paper is wrinkled, folded, creased and crumbled, and is missing small pieces (as if he had been nervously chewing on the edges). His test paper also contains some cross-outs, several write-overs, and much evidence of multiple erasures. And there is a plethora of markings, notes and scribblings in the margins, between the lines and on the back.

    Now, four questions (with accompanying answers):

    Question 1: Is A's perfect score more perfect than B's perfect score?
    Answer 1: Since A, just like B, answered all 20 questions correctly, no, A's perfect score is not more perfect than B's perfect score.

    Question 2: Is B's perfect score somehow not really perfect, but actually imperfect?
    Answer 2: Since B, just like A, answered all 20 questions correctly, no, B's perfect score nohow is not really perfect, and his perfect score nohow is actually imperfect.

    Question 3: Is B's penmanship such that his writing is more than barely legible
    Answer 3: No, B's penmanship is not such that his writing is more than barely legible; but that his penmanship is not such that his writing is more than barely legible neither overturns nor precipitates a diminution of the fact that his test score is perfect; and were his penmanship such that his writing is more than barely legible, his perfect test score would not be any more perfect than it already is.

    Question 4: Is B's test paper in pristine condition?
    Answer 4: No, B's test paper is not in pristine condition; but that his test paper is not in pristine condition neither overturns nor precipitates a diminution of the fact that his test score is perfect; and were his test paper in a pristine condition, his perfect test score would not be any more perfect than it already is.

    - - - - -

    o A thing is perfect in proportion to its state of actuality. ST I Q 4 A3

    o [T]his word "perfect" signifies whatever is not wanting in actuality, whether this be by way of perfection or not. ST I Q 4 A3 ad. 1

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  112. Glenn:

    Pardon my intruding, once again, but the question has been answered several times already -- by multiple people, including Ben, in various ways. I'll provide two more answers -- one short answer, and one long, albeit oblique, answer.

    Short answer: No.


    No apologies necessary. Your input is always welcome and clarifying.

    I understand your point, which is that the only relevant end of obedience is the act of obedience itself, and if the act occurs, then the manner or the way in which that obedience occurred is irrelevant in considering the perfection of the act itself. I was always under the impression that how a deed is performed is also important in determining how well that deed is done. So, in your test example, the student who got a perfect score without any hesitation and doubt in his answers would be said to have a more perfect understanding of the material than the student who hesitated, doubted, and had to cross out numerous answers. Hence, I would argue that there is more to obedience than just whether a person obeys, but rather the manner on which the person obeyed is also an important aspect of the obedience itself. If Catholicism disagrees with my account, then that is fine, but it seems to go against its own precepts against doubting God, because that is tantamount to sinful behavior.

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  113. The following should be my last response to dguller (on this topic) since I have a short attention span & bore easy. But that having been said this discussion with him has not been boring. I rather enjoyed it. I am glad that it’s been civil & I will make one more attempt at explanation of the concept of the Knowledge of Christ. If I fail then I will simply chalk it up to my own deficiencies in giving explanations & differ to others who may wish to take up the mantel.

    Cheers.

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  114. Let us get to the nub of it.

    >Okay, so you reject the position that Christ, at any time, did not know the divine will, which means that in Gethsemane, he knew the divine will with his divine intellect,

    Pretty much. In his divine intellect he knew how to walk and talk even as his human nature as a toddler was learning how to walk and talk. As God he is omniscient and at no time ceases to be so but as I said in operating his human nature he is limited by that natures limits even as he has no limits in his divine nature.

    > and yet prayed for a course of action that contradicted the divine will.

    I maintain for that to be the case Christ would have to infuse a law into his human intellect definitively informing that intellect that is was God's definitive will that Christ should take up the Cross and this was not a conditional thing & it is therefore forbidden to even ask the cup pass away. He prayed solely from his human will & the only involvement of his divine will was to foresee and allow it to happen & by allowing it to happen given consent to it to be asked even as God implicitly gives consent to me to pray for lawful things that the divine will sees fit not to grant me.

    >What I am saying is that Christ knew the divine will with his divine intellect, and Christ as a person had that knowledge, which he could not just hide from himself, unless you want to say that Christ did not know the divine will at all at some times in his life?

    Of course Christ as a divine person had the knowledge of his ultimate divine will in this situation. But we have no reason to believe he infused this knowledge into his human intellect to move his human will to prevent it from imploring the divine will to grant salvation via other means.

    Like I said and Aquinas said this prayer comes from his human nature only. His divine will did not implore itself to grant salvation by means other than the cross since that would be absurd.

    One of the objections people who object to the deity of Christ(specifically Muslims and Jews) make is “If Christ is God how can he pray to Himself”? Well the Trinity aside it would be absurd for God Incarnate via the divine will to appeal to the divine will because that would be a blatant contradiction. But it was a human will moved by a human intellect operated by a divine person that did this so no contradiction.

    This is the best I can do others will have to take up the slack if what I said is inadequate. Now what is left? Ah yes...

    >The issue is whether his questioning and doubting what he knew to be the divine will, even though he ultimately followed the divine will, was a sign of imperfect obedience.

    I believe even his human intellect had the infused knowledge that God could bring about redemption with his death & he had no doubts at all about this fact. He also had no doubt in his human intellect that if this is God’s Ultimate will that it is Good & he would have also known in his human intellect that had God willed otherwise that would be just as good.

    As for questioning there is questioning in terms of seeking what you must do. “God is this what you want me to do?” vs insolent questioning “God do you even know what the heck you are doing?”. The human intellect can seek additional knowledge of the divine & that is not imperfect obedience rather a manifestation of perfect obedience.


    >It seems that the Bible associates doubt with imperfect obedience.

    It does but Christ clearly wasn’t doubting here. He had no doubt God’s plan was good regardless of God ultimate will & because of that will and resolved to submit to it.

    Cheers. Thanks for the discussion.

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  115. dguller,

    I understand your point, which is that the only relevant end of obedience is the act of obedience itself, and if the act occurs, then the manner or the way in which that obedience occurred is irrelevant in considering the perfection of the act itself.

    Almost, but not quite. From the Catholic perspective, what makes for "perfect obedience" is always obeying lawful things.

    How one obeys is not irrelevant in evaluating the actual performance of one or more particular acts, no sir. But it is irrelevant in answering the question: is one always obedient in lawful things?

    ...in your test example, the student who got a perfect score without any hesitation and doubt in his answers would be said to have a more perfect understanding of the material than the student who hesitated, doubted, and had to cross out numerous answers.

    That may be a legitimate knee-jerk surface assumption, but there isn't enough information in the test example to determine whether it is indeed the case. For example,

    It may be that the student who completed the test in five minutes actually has little to no understanding of the subject matter, but was able to summon forth the correct answers from memory.

    And it may be that the student who needed forty minutes to complete the exam didn't remember the correct answers, but understands the basic principles sufficiently well that he was able to work out the correct answers.

    In this case:

    a) the blemish-free blitzer has the more perfect memory, but the less perfect understanding;

    b) the sloppy slow-poke has the less perfect memory, but the more perfect understanding; and,

    c) neither the test score of the blemish-free blitzer (who has the better memory, but the worse understanding) nor the test score of the sloppy slow-poke (who has the worse memory, but the better understanding) is any more perfect or any less perfect than that of the other.

    (Of course, it may be that neither has the better memory, and that it’s just that the blitzer remembers correct answers, while the slow-poke remembers principles which enable correct answers to be determined. Even so, the blizter's test score is neither any less perfect nor any more perfect than the slow-poke's test score.)

    Hence, I would argue that there is more to obedience than just whether a person obeys, but rather the manner on which the person obeyed is also an important aspect of the obedience itself.

    This is a fair assessment of the matter. Whether one obeys and how one obeys are individual things, constitute different aspects, and are subject to separate considerations.

    If Catholicism disagrees with my account, then that is fine, but it seems to go against its own precepts against doubting God, because that is tantamount to sinful behavior.

    Unless I'm very much mistaken, neither is it a precept of Catholicism that dguller is God, nor is it a precept of Catholicism that disagreeing with dguller is tantamount to sinful behavior. ;)

    But let me respond to a more serious reading of your comment.

    Since it is unlikely that two people are exactly alike, it is unlikely that two people who obey the same divine command are going to obey in exactly the same way. Therefore, variations in the "how" of obedience are not, by virtue of being variations, sinful.

    Further, a command from God is an end to attain to, and having one or more questions regarding the means to that end is not equivalent to doubting the end itself (i.e., is not equivalent to doubting the command itself, (i.e., is not equivalent to doubting God Himself)).

    - - - - -

    And now I shall say no more.

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  116. There is a fundamental confusion in your argument. You confuse Īśvara, who is argued against as the efficient cause of the world, with Buddha, who is the final, and in a very important way, the material cause of the world. The paragraph in which you quote Maimonides' example of the multiple effects of a single cause,"Many of the attributes express different acts of God, but that difference does not necessitate any difference as regards Him from whom the acts proceed. This fact, viz., that from one agency different effects may result, although that agency has not free will, and much more so if it has free will, I will illustrate by an instance taken from our own sphere. Fire melts certain things and makes others hard, it boils and burns, it bleaches and blackens. If we described the fire as bleaching, blackening, burning, boiling, hardening and melting, we should be
    correct, and yet he who does not know the nature of fire, would think that it included six different elements, one by which it blackens, another by which it bleaches, a third by which it boils, a fourth by which it consumes, a fifth by which it melts, a sixth by which it hardens things--actions which are opposed to one another, and of which each has its peculiar property. He, however, who knows the nature of fire, will know that by virtue of one quality in action, namely, by heat, it produces all these effects. If this is the case with that which is done by nature, how much more is it the case with regard to beings that act by free will, and still more with regard to God, who is above all description." (Book I, Chapter 53), could just as easily be said of Buddha,though not of Īśvara, vide Chapter Five of the Lotus Sūtra, the Sarvabuddha­viṣayāvatāra­jñānālokālaṃkāra (The Ornament of the Light of Awareness That Enters the Domain of All Buddhas,and the Five Dharmas of Maitreya, etc. Especially reference the extended treatment of this standard Buddhist argument against the creatorship of Īśvara in Śāntarakṣita's Tattvasamgraha and Kamalasila's commentary on it. I find your argument hopelessly confused; I believe this is due to your sloppy research.

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