Friday, October 4, 2013

Why Is There Anything At All? It’s Simple


Note: The following article is cross-posted over at First Things.

I thank John Leslie and Robert Lawrence Kuhn for their gracious and substantive response to my recent comments on their fine anthology The Mystery of Existence: Why Is There Anything At All?  In the course of my earlier remarks, I put forward a “friendly criticism” to the effect that John and Robert had paid insufficient attention in their book to the tradition of classical theism, which has its philosophical roots in Aristotelian and Neo-Platonic thought and whose many illustrious representatives include Augustine, Anselm, Avicenna, Maimonides, and Aquinas.  Though there are selections from some of these writers, they are very brief, and the bulk of the theological selections in the book are from recent writers of what has sometimes been called a “theistic personalist” or “neo-theist” bent.  John and Robert have offered a lively defense of their approach.  In what follows I’d like to respond, pressing the case for the primacy of the classical theistic tradition.
 
Classical theism, divine simplicity, and ultimate explanation

One of the points John and Robert make in their defense is an appeal to the very specific aim of their volume:

Our book’s limited mission is to build appreciation for the most baffling of all enigmas: Why is there something rather than nothing? In its shadow, all the big questions – Does God exist?  Why the universe? Life after death? – are eclipsed…

The Mystery of Existence is not about the clash between classical and modern/personal forms of theism ("theistic personalism"), a distinction that is anyway not directly on point in explicating Nothing (our limited mission again), since in either case, classical or modern/personal, God can be in some sense necessary.

End quote.  Now, while our editors are of course the best experts on their mission for the volume, I would respectfully disagree with them about the relevance of classical theism to that mission.  For the philosophical dispute between classical and modern forms of theism is, I would argue, exactly on point.  And when we understand why, we will also see that the question whether God exists is in no way eclipsed by the question why there is something rather than nothing -- on the contrary, the existence of God, as classical theism understands God, is (so the classical theist would argue) the only possible answer in principle to that question.  Let me explain.

Both classical theism on the one hand and “theistic personalism” or “neo-theism” on the other have their strictly theological aspects.  There is, for instance, a longstanding dispute over which of these views better comports with what we find said about God in the Bible.  I would certainly agree with John and Robert that such disputes are tangential to the aims of their volume.

However, both views also have a purely philosophical side, and their purely philosophical differences make a world of difference to the question of whether theism offers us any insight into the question of why anything exists at all.  For you might say that classical theism in its philosophical aspect just is the development of the implications of there being an ultimate explanation of why anything exists at all.  Theistic personalism or neo-theism, by contrast, is motivated by a different set of concerns, and touches on the question of ultimate explanation only in a secondary way.

At the core of classical theism is the notion of divine simplicity -- the idea that God is non-composite or without parts.  This is a doctrine having its philosophical roots in Plato and Aristotle and defended by pagan, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim thinkers as diverse as Philo of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, Plotinus, Augustine, Boethius, Anselm, Maimonides, Avicenna, Averroes, Aquinas, and Scotus.  The doctrine is the de fide teaching of the Catholic Church and is endorsed by many Protestant theologians.  The point of all this name-dropping is to emphasize how absolutely central the doctrine of divine simplicity is to the mainstream Western tradition in philosophical theology.  And why is it so central?

The reason is that for the classical theist, whatever else we mean by “God,” we certainly mean by that label to name the ultimate source, cause, or explanation of things.  Properly to understand classical theism, the hostile atheist reader might even find it useful to put the word “God” out of his mind for the moment -- given all the irrelevant associations the word might lead him to read into the present discussion -- and just think instead of “the ultimate source of things.”  The classical theist maintains that whatever is in any way composed of parts cannot be the ultimate source of things.  For wherever we have a composite thing, a thing made up of parts, we have something that requires a cause of its own, a cause which accounts for how the parts get together.

This is obviously true of the ordinary things of our experience.  For example, a given chair exists only because there is something (a carpenter, or a machine) that assembled the legs, seat, etc. into a chair.  And the chair continues to exist only insofar as certain combining factors -- such as the tackiness of glue or friction between screw threads -- continue to operate.  The point applies also to things whose composition is less crudely mechanical.  A water molecule depends for its existence on the oxygen and hydrogen atoms that make it up together with the principles of covalent bonding. 

But it is true at deeper metaphysical levels as well.  Any changeable thing, the Aristotelian argues, must be composed of actuality and potentiality.  For example, an ice cube melts because it has a potential to take on a liquid form that is actualized by the heat in the surrounding air.  In any contingent thing, the Thomist argues, its essence is distinct from its existence.  That is why a tree (say) can come into existence and go out of existence, since what it is to be a tree -- a tree’s essence or nature -- by itself entails nothing one way or the other about whether it exists.  Whether it is, you might say, is distinct from what it is.  Actuality and potentiality, existence and essence are thus components of any thing that has both -- even if they are metaphysical components rather than material components -- and their composition entails that such a thing depends on a cause, on something that actualizes its potentials, that imparts existence to its essence. 

So, whatever the ultimate source, cause, or explanation of things is -- again, refrain from calling it “God” if you want -- it cannot be made up of material components, or actuality and potentiality, or existence and essence.  Nor can it be composed of any other metaphysical parts -- genus and difference, substance and properties, or what have you.  It cannot be an instance of a genus, for then it will require some aspect or other that differentiates it from other instances of that genus, and that entails having metaphysical parts.  It cannot instantiate properties since that would, again, require some differentiating feature that sets it apart from other instances of those properties, which again entails having metaphysical parts.

Naturally, if it is the ultimate source, cause or explanation of things it is actual or existent -- it could hardly cause or explain anything otherwise -- but it is not a compound of actuality and potentiality as other things are, nor a compound of existence and essence.  It would have to be, always and “already” as it were, pure actuality rather than something that has or could have any potential in need of actualization.  It would have to be, not “an” existent thing among other existent things, but pure being or existence itself.  Anything less would require a cause or source of its own and thus not be the ultimate cause or source.

Note that on the classical theist view of ultimate explanation, there are no inexplicable “brute facts.”  Things that require causes require them because they have potentials that need to be actualized and parts that need to be combined.  To say of a thing that it has parts and yet lacks any cause which accounts for their combination, or has potentiality yet lacks any cause which actualized that potentiality, would be to make of it a “brute fact.”  But that is precisely what the classical theist does not say about the ultimate cause of things.  It says instead that, since it is purely actual (and thus devoid of potentials that could be actualized) and absolutely simple (and thus devoid of parts that could be combined), it not only need not have a cause but could not in principle have had one.  It, and it alone, has its source of intelligibility in itself rather than in some external cause. 

So, whatever else we say about the ultimate cause, source, or explanation of things -- and whether or not we want to call it “God,” whether or not we want to identify it with the God of the Bible specifically, and whether or not we think it has any religious implications in the first place -- we are going to have to regard it as absolutely simple or non-composite, as pure actuality devoid of potentiality, and as being itself rather than something that merely instantiates being.  We are also going to have to regard it as immutable and uncaused, because only what has potentiality capable of being actualized, or parts capable of being combined, can be caused or undergo change, and the source or cause of all things must be devoid of potentiality or parts. 

Now, whatever one thinks of this set of ideas -- and obviously there are various questions and objections that might be raised -- it is surely not “eclipsed” by the question of why something exists rather than nothing, and it is surely “on point”!  For what the classical theist claims to be doing is elucidating what any possible answer to that question must involve.  And as I have emphasized, this approach to that question is the dominant one in the history of Western thought.  What could be more relevant to the mission of The Mystery of Existence?

Theistic personalism versus classical theism

“Theistic personalism” or “neo-theism” -- I borrow the labels from Brian Davies and Norman Geisler, respectively -- is a very different story.  This relatively recent movement in philosophy of religion and theology -- represented by a diverse set of thinkers such as the analytic philosophers Alvin Plantinga and Richard Swinburne, process philosophers and theologians like Charles Hartshorne, and advocates of “open theism” like Clark Pinnock and William Hasker -- is primarily motivated, not by questions of ultimate explanation, but by theological and philosophical objections to certain key aspects of the classical theistic conception of God.  Indeed, theistic personalism is defined perhaps above all by its rejection of precisely that notion that the classical theist regards as essential to ultimate explanation -- the idea of divine simplicity. 

Whereas the classical theist’s philosophical analysis of the idea of God typically begins by thinking of Him as the ultimate cause of things, the theistic personalist begins instead by conceiving of God as a certain kind of “person.”  Hence Alvin Plantinga characterizes theism as “the thought that there is such a person as God: a personal agent who has created the world and is all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good” (Where the Conflict Really Lies, p. ix).  According to Richard Swinburne, “that God is a person, yet one without a body, seems the most elementary claim of theism” (The Coherence of Theism, p. 99).  One of the main objections theistic personalists often raise against the idea of divine simplicity is that it makes God out to be too abstract, and is irreconcilable with the idea that God is a person. 

Now classical theists, in general, by no means regard God as impersonal.  They typically argue that when the notion of the ultimate cause of all things is fully developed, it can be seen that there is a sense in which we must attribute to this cause intellect and will.  But the meaning of these terms as applied to God must be very carefully unpacked, and anthropomorphism avoided.  And it is definitely a mistake from the classical theist point of view to start with the idea that God is, like us, an instance of the kind or genus “person,” who instantiates some of the same properties that other persons do, but has them to a higher degree and lacks some of the other properties (such as corporeality).  Yet that seems to be the approach that the theistic personalist or neo-theist is at least implicitly committed to.

There are various objections that can be raised against this approach, but the most relevant one for present purposes is that insofar as theistic personalism implies that God has parts, or that he is one instance among others of a kind, or that like those others he instantiates properties, etc., it makes theism simply unsuitable as a candidate for ultimate explanation.  For (as the classical theist sees things, anyway) it makes of God something essentially creaturely -- something which, like other composites, requires a cause of his own.  Or if he doesn’t have one, he will simply be a brute fact and thus not an ultimate explanation at all -- something which, like other things, is composite, but which merely happens inexplicably nevertheless not to have been caused.  This opens theism up to New Atheist-style objections to the effect that God is a metaphysical fifth wheel -- something which at best seems dubiously preferable to taking the universe as the ultimate brute fact, and at worst seems ruled out by Ockham’s razor.

The question of whether a deity of the theistic personalist sort exists or not therefore does seem “eclipsed” by the question of why anything exists at all, and “not directly on point.”  And that was precisely my point in offering my friendly criticism of John and Robert’s choice of selections for The Mystery of Existence.  Given the book’s mission, it would, I argue, have been more appropriate to emphasize classical theist writers and give theistic personalist or neo-theist writers secondary consideration.  But (as I have complained) the reverse course was followed.

An objection to divine simplicity

John and Robert offer a second defense of their choice of emphasis in the book by raising an objection to classical theism and its core notion of divine simplicity:

[C]lassical theism really is puzzling…

Aquinas sees God’s properties as all of them ultimately identical. God’s goodness just is God’s power, for example, and that just is God’s knowledge, which in turn just is God’s existence; for God’s essence simply is to exist..

Aquinas may make some of this easier to accept through stressing that we speak of God “only analogically”.  But doesn’t that itself say that we’ve little idea of what we’re talking about, and that discussing it for many pages wouldn’t alter this unalterable fact? Theistic readers of The Mystery of Existence may feel relieved when the “personal theist” Timothy O’Connor tells them that while he, too, sees God’s goodness, power, and knowledge as intimately linked, he finds it “very hard to be sure” what Aquinas’s doctrine “is supposed to come to”.

Again, those readers may welcome Richard Swinburne’s description of God as “a spirit, a non-embodied person”…  [T]o Richard, the claim that the divine properties are identical to each other and to God depends on the somewhat arbitrary way “one divides up the properties of a thing (how many properties one says that some thing has) – and that applies to all things, not only to God. And it remains extremely puzzling how a property can be the same as a substance in which it inheres…”

End quote.  The first thing to say in response is that it cannot be emphasized too greatly that divine simplicity is not merely Aquinas’s doctrine.  It is by no means the eccentric teaching of a single thinker or two.  Rather, it is the common heritage of the entire mainstream Western tradition in theology and philosophy of religion, endorsed by the major pagan, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim thinkers referred to above and incorporated into the official theology of Roman Catholicism.  The thinkers in question may disagree over certain details, but they all affirm that divine simplicity itself is non-negotiable.

Second, the reason it is non-negotiable is, as I have emphasized, its essential connection to the very idea of an ultimate cause, source, or explanation of things.  The classical theist holds that nothing could be an ultimate explanation or cause unless it is absolutely simple or non-composite. 

So, the stakes couldn’t be higher.  To reject divine simplicity is not merely to disagree with a particular philosopher or two.  It is to reject the entire mainstream tradition in philosophical theology, and implicitly to deny the very possibility of ultimate explanation.  Or, again, so the classical theist would argue.  No doubt theistic personalists would disagree, but -- especially given that theirs is, historically speaking, by far the minority position -- an anthology like The Mystery of Existence should give a sense of the importance of the dispute between the two views.

A third point is that objections to divine simplicity of the sort raised by John and Robert in any event either miss the point or beg the question.  Yes, the doctrine of divine simplicity is difficult to understand, but no more so than any other theory that requires us radically to abstract from the conditions of everyday material reality and apply concepts in novel and even seemingly paradoxical ways -- as, of course, many philosophical and scientific theories do.  (Wave-particle duality, anyone?  Time as a fourth dimension, anyone?)

Hence, yes, if we carve up the conceptual territory the way the theistic personalist does, then of course divine simplicity will seem odd or even incoherent.  So, suppose we took God to be one instance among others of the kind or genus “person,” who thus instantiates the same properties we do -- power, knowledge, goodness, etc. -- just to a higher degree.  Since what we call “power,” “knowledge,” “goodness,” etc. in us are obviously different properties, and all of these properties are also in turn different from the substances in which they inhere, then it would follow that they are different properties in God and different also from the substance in which they inhere in his case.  And so if we went on to say that God’s goodness, power, knowledge, etc. are all identical, this would, naturally, seem unintelligible. 

But of course, that is simply not what Aquinas and other classical theists are saying.  For instance, Aquinas does not start out by attributing power, knowledge, goodness, etc. to God in just the same sense that theistic personalists do, and then out of the blue tack on some strange stuff about simplicity and analogy.  Rather, he starts by arguing for a cause of the world that is absolutely simple, pure actuality, etc. (Summa theologiae I, qq. 2-3), then argues that what we predicate of this cause cannot, for that very reason, be exactly what we predicate of the things of our experience, but only analogues of what we predicate of those things (Summa theologiae I, q. 4).  Hence when we say that God has power and knowledge (for example) we don’t mean that He instantiates the properties having power and having knowledge, just as we do.  We mean that there is something in Him that is analogous to what we call “power” and “knowledge” in us, but that whatever this amounts to, it does not amount to his “having” just the same thing we do, or instantiating “properties,” or being a substance in which various distinct attributes inhere, etc. 

Compare wave-particle duality.  A physicist familiar with Aquinas’s theory of the analogous use of language might find it useful to say that quantum theory tells us that there is something in quantum phenomena that is analogous to what we call “particles” and analogous to what we call “waves” -- but that it can only be analogous and not precisely the same as what we ordinarily call “particles” and “waves,” because being a particle in the usual sense excludes being wave-like, and vice versa.  Aquinas is saying something comparable to that.  He is saying that the arguments of philosophical theology show that there is a cause of all things that is absolutely simple, pure actuality, etc., and that (as he goes on to argue in the rest of Part I of the Summa) there is also something analogous to power, knowledge, goodness, etc. in this cause, but that precisely because the cause is simple, pure actuality, etc. what we are attributing to the cause is only analogous to, and not exactly the same thing as, what we attribute to ourselves.

Hence there is nothing any more suspect about Aquinas’s procedure than there is in quantum theory.  And if quantum theory is acceptable despite being notoriously difficult to interpret, why should we expect a line of argument that deals with an even more fundamental question than quantum theory does -- the question of why anything exists at all -- to yield conclusions that are any less difficult to wrap our minds around?  On the contrary, we should expect that the ultimate cause of all things will be extremely difficult for us to understand, rather than being -- as the deity of theistic personalism is -- essentially “one of us” (as the Joan Osborne song puts it). 

Platonism and possibility

Let me make some brief remarks about John’s own preferred view of these matters, which is a kind of Platonism.  John and Robert suggest that Aquinas’s view might be in the same ballpark as Plato’s notion of the Form of the Good, which can also be thought of as simple in the relevant sense.  I would say that that is exactly correct -- Aquinas is presenting a view which in its details is certainly importantly different from Plato’s, but is still in the same broad classical tradition.  The view sketched out by John and Robert at the end of their piece is essentially representative of the Neo-Platonic branch of a larger tradition of which Aquinas represents the Aristotelian branch (albeit with some Neo-Platonic influences).  So, the dispute between John and me is really a kind of family squabble.  And regarding the contents of The Mystery of Existence, I suppose the point is that I wish John and Robert had included more selections from the members of our philosophical family!

(By the way, when I characterized John’s brand of Platonism as “distinctive” and “somewhat eccentric” -- and those words were not meant to be pejorative, but merely descriptive! -- what I meant is this.  John has sometimes described his position as entailing that “creative value” is the source of all things, and that the universe exists because of its “ethical requiredness.”  I think that in substance what he is defending is essentially the sort of view one finds in Plato and Plotinus, but that the language in which he expresses it is arguably too modern and potentially misleading.  At least since Hume, “value” connotes for most philosophers something that depends on someone who does the valuing, and thus seems essentially subjective or mind-dependent.  And the “ethical,” for most modern philosophers, essentially connotes a property of the actions of rational creatures like us.  Hence a position like John’s is -- quite mistakenly, but understandably -- bound to seem very strange and even unintelligible to most contemporary philosophers.  More traditional Platonic expressions like “the Form of the Good” or even just “the Good,” while hardly common in contemporary philosophy, are in my view preferable since they better convey the objectivity or mind-independence of what John is talking about.)

Finally, I want to respond to one last objection raised by John and Robert:

Here’s something that puzzled us.  While Ed notes rightly “how could anything actually exist unless it were in some sense a possibility?”, why does he seem to make God an exception to this rule?  Even if God, instead of being a Person or a Being in a fairly straightforward sense, “just is Subsistent Being Itself”, doesn’t it remain true that God exists?  And if so, why does Ed write that all possibilities “pre-exist as ideas in the divine intellect”?  For what about the possibility of God’s own existence?  How could this possibility itself depend on the fact that God existed so as to be able to think about it?

End quote.  This objection seems to presuppose that I take the realm of abstract possibilities to be the fundamental level of reality.  The idea would be that everything that actually exists, including God, is in a sense dependent on a metaphysically more fundamental set of facts about what possibly could exist in the first place.  And in that case, it would make no sense to say that possibilities depend on God.

But that is not my view.  I would say that possibilities couldn’t be the most fundamental level of reality, precisely because they are mere possibilities rather than actualities.  Indeed, what is most fundamental can only be what is pure actuality in the sense described above.  And what is pure actuality exists necessarily rather than in a merely possible way, precisely because it has no potentialities that could either be actualized or fail to be actualized.  True, this ultimate cause is also “possible” in the trivial sense that, being existent, it can hardly be impossible.  But its possibility follows from its actuality rather than being a precondition of its actuality.  All other things that exist are mixtures of actuality and potentiality and of essence and existence, which is why their possibility precedes their actuality.  And their possibility is grounded in their ultimate cause -- the purely actual, absolutely simple divine source of all.

Obviously the metaphysical waters here are deep and I have hardly answered every question that might be raised about classical theism, even in this already-too-long article.  But these are depths that need to be plumbed if we are fully to explore the question of why anything at all exists rather than nothing.  Hence my wish that more readings from the classical philosophical tradition had been included in The Mystery of Existence.  But as we have seen, John and Robert are not entirely unsympathetic to that tradition, and insofar as they have seriously grappled with its central concerns, they are its loyal sons.  For their important contribution to the current debate, we are in their debt.

766 comments:

  1. Ben:

    It's not the same argument. I concede that the earlier argument was problematic, because there can be real distinction without composition. I continue to find that hard to understand, but I recognize that if that is a genuine possibility, then my earlier argument was not sound.

    None of that has anything to do with this argument. I’ve presented the premises, and you are too cowardly to take a position on any of them, instead casting wide aspersions upon the entirety of them. Here they are again:

    (1) A is really distinct from B iff there is a principle of distinction that (a) provides an account of the difference between A and B, and (b) cannot be identical to what A and B have in common
    (2) The divine persons are really distinct from one another (in a non-physical and non-metaphysical fashion)
    (3) The divine persons are really identical to the divine essence
    (4) The divine persons share the exact same divine essence in common
    (5) The divine persons cannot be creatures

    Notice that none of the premises claim that “God is Mysterious real relations and not mysterious real relations”, and so that criticism – like all of your others during this discussion, is completely irrelevant. There are two contradictions that I deduce from the above premises:

    (A) The divine persons are really identical to the divine essence and the divine persons are not really identical to the divine essence
    (B) The divine persons cannot be creatures and the divine persons are creatures

    You’ll notice – or maybe you won’t, because … well … it’s you -- that (A) and (B) have nothing to do with “mysterious real relations”.

    And before you bring in issues of equivocation, I’ve even defined my terms:

    (6) A is really distinct from B iff (a) A and B are distinct in our minds, and (b) A and B are distinct in reality
    (7) A is really identical to B iff (a) A and B are distinct in our minds, and (b) A and B are not distinct in reality

    It is clear from (6) and (7) that A and B cannot be really distinct and really identical at the same time, because it would follow that A and B are distinct in reality and not distinct in reality. Either they are distinct in reality, or they are not distinct in reality, but they cannot be both. I’ve presented this to you before, and you tentatively accepted it as true, not because you saw anything wrong with it, but because you were frightened by what it might imply.

    So, unless you have good reasons to reject (1) to (7), you are stuck with (A) and (B). That’s the reality of the situation. Feel free to return to your fantasy world.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Simple answer.

    The Father in reality is a mysterious really distinct divine person from the Son but both are in reality identical to one another both physically and metaphysically & thus have the same identical essence.

    I don't see the logical contradiction & I can't see how you can get God is Mysterious Really distinct relations and not mysterious really distinct relations at the same time and in the same sense?

    I don't see how the principle of distinction leads to that conclusion either.

    Now ignore what I just said after this minor indulgence & continue to pretend you have something intelligent to say.

    >t is clear from (6) and (7) that A and B cannot be really distinct and really identical at the same time

    They can be mysteriously distinct and identical physically and metaphysically in essence.

    So what is the problem? Same thing we have all been saying that you have been ignoring.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Ben:

    The Father in reality is a mysterious really distinct divine person from the Son but both are in reality identical to one another both physically and metaphysically & thus have the same identical essence.

    That corresponds to the following premises:

    (2) The divine persons are really distinct from one another (in a non-physical and non-metaphysical fashion)
    (3) The divine persons are really identical to the divine essence
    (4) The divine persons share the exact same divine essence in common

    I don't see the logical contradiction & I can't see how you can get God is Mysterious Really distinct relations and not mysterious really distinct relations at the same time and in the same sense?

    First, I just want to note that I predicted that you would completely miss the point of my argument, and here is the confirmation.

    Second, I did not conclude that “God is Mysterious Really distinct relations and not mysterious really distinct relations at the same time and in the same sense”. Once again, you totally missed the point. I conclude the following contradictions:

    (A) The divine persons are really identical to the divine essence and the divine persons are not really identical to the divine essence
    (B) The divine persons cannot be creatures and the divine persons are creatures

    They can be mysteriously distinct and identical physically and metaphysically in essence.

    Wait. Are you claiming that the divine relations are “identical physically and metaphysically in essence”? What does that even mean? How can A and B be physically identical unless A and B are physical. Are you claiming that the divine relations are physical beings? Also, how can A and B be metaphysically identical unless A and B are metaphysical. Are you claiming that the divine relations are metaphysical beings? Wow! I would love for you to cite a Catholic authority that endorses this position! Go for it, Ben!

    ReplyDelete
  4. Then if it makes you feel better say:

    They are really distinct mysteriously but not really distinct physically and metaphysically and thus identical in essence.


    Here we go again right on cue.

    Good bye dguller.

    It's not hard. But we both know you don't really care.

    ReplyDelete
  5. >Also, how can A and B be metaphysically identical unless A and B are metaphysical.

    the mindless sophistry here is amazing......

    ReplyDelete
  6. >It is clear from (6) and (7) that A and B cannot be really distinct and really identical at the same time.

    They can be be really distinct in the sense of mystery but not in the physical or metaphysical sense.

    If they are not really distinct physically and metaphysically then they are identical physically and metaphysically.

    Meaning they have no parts or composition & or no potency.

    How can I be any clearer?

    It's only what we all have been saying all along

    ReplyDelete
  7. Ben:

    They are really distinct mysteriously but not really distinct physically and metaphysically and thus identical in essence.

    Much better. So, we have the following:

    (a) The divine relations are mysteriously really distinct
    (b) The divine relations are neither physically nor metaphysically really distinct

    I think that we will agree that (a) and (b) are equivalent. After all, mysterious real distinction is equivalent to a real distinction that is neither physical nor metaphysical real distinction.

    That corresponds to premise (2) in my argument, which was:

    (2) The divine persons are really distinct from one another (in a non-physical and non-metaphysical fashion)

    So, we agree upon (2).

    You also state that (a) and (b) imply that the following is true:

    (c) The divine relations are identical in essence

    Here is where your account gets problematic.

    First, you state that the truth of (a) and (b) implies the truth of (c). In other words, (c) follows from (a) and (b). But how could (c) follow from (a) and (b)? In other words, how do you go from A is mysteriously really distinct from B to A and B are identical in essence?

    Second, (c) is ambiguous, and can mean a number of things. I think (c) means the following propositions:

    (c1) The divine relations share the same divine essence in common
    (c2) The divine relations are really identical to the divine essence

    Do you agree with (c1) and (c2), or do you mean something else by (c)? I sure hope that you mean something other than (c1) and (c2), because (c1) is premise (4) in my argument, and (c2) is premise (3) in my argument.

    If they are not really distinct physically and metaphysically then they are identical physically and metaphysically.

    I totally disagree. To be physically identical, they would both have to be physical. Otherwise, what does “physically identical” mean? Can two non-physical entities be physically identical? Can two angels be physically identical? Can two divine persons be physically identical? Of course not. That would be absurd.

    I think that what you mean is:

    (d) Physical (or metaphysical) entity A and physical (or metaphysical) entity B are not really physically (or metaphysically) distinct if and only if physical (or metaphysical) entity A and physical (or metaphysical) entity B are physically (or metaphysically) really identical

    It makes no sense to say that non-physical A and non-physical B are physically identical.

    And again, I would love for you to cite a Catholic authority who says that the divine persons are physically identical! And if you cannot, then you have just made up a Catholic doctrine out of whole cloth!

    ReplyDelete
  8. Ben:

    Sorry, I have to change (a) and (b) above to:

    (a) The divine relations are mysteriously really distinct
    (b) The divine relations are really distinct, but neither physically nor metaphysically really distinct

    Now, (a) and (b) are equivalent.

    ReplyDelete
  9. >I think that we will agree that (a) and (b) are equivalent.

    No we can't.

    A real physical distinction means something has parts that make up the whole.

    A real metaphysical one means something contains potency.

    A real mysterious distinction means the Father is not the same Person as the Son & we can say nothing else positive about it since it is beyond reason and an absolute mystery.

    You are just committing the same fallacy of equivocation you have always been committing.

    This is the same nonsense re-packaged.

    Stop insulting my intelligence.

    ReplyDelete
  10. This is a & b put together.

    The divine relations are mysteriously really distinct but neither physically nor metaphysically really distinct.

    No logical contradiction is possible.

    Nor given the fact we can't know what the mysterious real distinctions are other then they makes divine persons really distinct in some non physical or metaphysical way can we ever claim a logical contradiction.

    Live with it.

    ReplyDelete
  11. BTW FYI divine attributes like goodness or will are not mysteriously really distinct from one another since divine revelation never reveals that but of course like divine relations they are not really physically or metaphysically distinct from each other or relations or essence.

    It's really not hard.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Of course I already said all of this before.

    ReplyDelete
  13. >And again, I would love for you to cite a Catholic authority who says that the divine persons are physically identical! And if you cannot, then you have just made up a Catholic doctrine out of whole cloth!

    Homouseos with the Father. That is the same substance with the Father.

    -Council of Nicea

    Are you really this thick dguller?

    ReplyDelete
  14. "homoousios" is actually the correct spelling.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Of course there is no physical or metaphysical distinction between the spiritual soul of BenYachov and that of James Scott IV.

    But that is not the equivalent of saying a spiritual soul is a physical material object.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Ben:

    No we can't.

    Yes, you can. According to you, there are three kinds of real distinction:

    (1) Physical real distinction
    (2) Metaphysical real distinction
    (3) Mysterious real distinction

    A mysterious real distinction is just a real distinction that is neither (1) nor (2). So, saying that A is mysteriously really distinct from B is equivalent to saying that A is really distinct from B, but is neither physically really distinct nor metaphysically really distinct.

    A real physical distinction means something has parts that make up the whole.

    A real metaphysical one means something contains potency.


    I can quibble with these, but it is largely irrelevant. All that matters is that mysterious real distinction is a real distinction that is neither a physical real distinction nor a metaphysical real distinction. The additional details don’t matter.

    A real mysterious distinction means the Father is not the same Person as the Son & we can say nothing else.

    Here is what we can say:

    (a1) A and B are mysteriously really distinct if and only if A and B are really distinct, but are neither physically really distinct nor metaphysically really distinct
    (a2) A and B are really identical if and only if A and B are neither physically really distinct, metaphysically really distinct, nor mysteriously really distinct

    Any problems with that?

    If that is correct, then to say that the divine relations are really identical to the divine essence just means that there is no real distinction of any kind between the divine relations and the divine essence. They are one and the same thing in reality, and only differ in our minds, as Aquinas has said.

    FYI divine attributes like goodness or will are not mysteriously really distinct from one another since divine revelation never reveals that but of course like divine relations they are not really physically or metaphysically distinct from each other or relations or essence.

    I disagree with that. The fact that Aquinas uses the exact same language to describe the relationship between the divine attributes and the relationship between the divine relations and the divine essence indicates that they are the exact same kind of relationship. But that’s not really relevant here.

    Homouseos with the Father. That is the same substance with the Father.

    That citation does not say that the divine relations are physically identical. It only says that they are “the same substance”. Try again.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Ben:

    Honestly, I can't wait for you to find a Catholic authority who agrees with you that the divine relations are physically identical!

    But I'm the one with heterodox views!

    ReplyDelete
  18. Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.--Mark Twain

    Don't argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.--Greg King

    Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou be made like him.--Proverbs 26:4

    ReplyDelete
  19. Good point Bill.

    He just comes off as so sincere I allow myself to hope....but he always burns me.

    I am just too nice........;-)

    ReplyDelete
  20. Ben:

    Ultimately, what this comes down to is the following. Is it possible for the following propositions to both be true:

    (1) The divine relations are really identical to the divine essence
    (2) The divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence

    According to you, there are only three kinds of real distinction: physical, metaphysical, and mysterious. That means that (2) must mean one of the following:

    (2a) The divine relations are really physically distinct from the divine essence
    (2b) The divine relations are really metaphysically distinct from the divine essence
    (2c) The divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence, but neither really physically distinct nor really metaphysically distinct

    I think that you will agree that (2) could only mean (2c). After all, physical real distinction implies physical composition and metaphysical real distinction implies metaphysical composition. And since we cannot predicate composition of God in any sense, then (2a) and (2b) cannot possibly be true. And that only leaves (2c), which means that if there is any kind of real distinction between the divine relations and the divine essence, then it must be (2c).

    So, that leaves us to examine (1) and what it could mean. Aquinas gives us clues about what it could mean. He says that A and B are really identical if and only if any distinction between A and B only occurs in our minds. In reality, there is no distinction between A and B, because they are “one and the same thing”, and any distinction that occurs in our minds between A and B does not correspond to anything in reality. In other words, A and B are really identical if and only if A and B are notionally distinct. It would follow that A and B cannot be really distinct in any way, because if they were really distinct in some way, then their differences would not only occur in the mind, but would also correspond to reality, which would mean that they would not be really identical at all. Thus, what (1) ultimately means is:

    (1*) The divine relations are not really distinct in any way from the divine essence

    And (1*) expands to:

    (1**) The divine relations are neither really physically distinct nor really metaphysically distinct nor really mysteriously distinct

    Now, you clearly see that (1**) is logically incompatible with (2c). After all, (1**) negates real mysterious distinction while (2c) affirms real mysterious distinction. Therefore, (1**) logically contradicts (2c).

    Here’s another, far more simpler way to look at it:

    (A) The divine relations are really identical to the divine essence if and only if the divine relations are not really distinct from the divine essence in any way

    (B) The divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence if and only if the divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence in some way

    ReplyDelete
  21. Amazing Sophistry and Trollness.........

    ReplyDelete
  22. Ben:

    Amazing Sophistry and Trollness.........

    Here’s how Aquinas discusses notional distinctions:

    Regarding the distinction between goodness and being, he writes that goodness and being “are really the same, and differ only in idea” (ST 1.5.1). Regarding the distinction between the divine persons and the divine essence, he writes that “relation really existing in God is really the same as His essence and only differs in its mode of intelligibility” (ST 1.28.2).

    Do you see how he says that A is really the same as B if and only if A and B differ only in the mind? Do you disagree that if A and B differ in some way in reality, then they cannot differ only in the mind?

    ReplyDelete
  23. In case anyone is wondering.

    There are no real physical or metaphysical distinctions between the divine essence & divine relations.

    There are mysterious real distinctions between opposing divine relations.

    There are no mysterious real distinctions between the divine relations and the divine essence because that would in effect make the divine essence a fourth person of the Trinity & equivocate between the terms essence & hypostsis.

    But human persons who love their fallacies of equivocation will refuse to see it.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Ben:

    There are no real physical or metaphysical distinctions between the divine essence & divine relations.

    There are mysterious real distinctions between opposing divine relations.


    No disagreement there.

    There are no mysterious real distinctions between the divine relations and the divine essence because that would in effect make the divine essence a fourth person of the Trinity & equivocate between the terms essence & hypostsis.

    There are no real distinctions of any kind between the divine relations and the divine essence. Or do you think that there is a real distinction of some kind between the divine relations and the divine essence?

    And I'm still waiting for your Catholic authority who says that the divine relations are physically identical to one another. Or, are you just constipated?

    ReplyDelete
  25. BTW there is no real physical and or metaphysical distinction between divine attributes and divine essence & divine relations.

    So why can't they use the same analogy?

    You can't read your own made up shit into Aquinas.

    ReplyDelete
  26. >There are no real distinctions of any kind between the divine relations and the divine essence.

    Of course.

    But there are mysterious real distinctions between opposing divine relations.


    >And I'm still waiting for your Catholic authority who says that the divine relations are physically identical to one another. Or, are you just constipated?

    You do know my name is James Scott IV right?

    You do know if I say BenYachov's soul is physically identical to James Scott IV's I am not saying my soul is physical or material right?

    Are you really this thick?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Ben:

    BTW there is no real physical and or metaphysical distinction between divine attributes and divine essence & divine relations.

    First, there is a mysterious kind of real distinction between the divine attributes and the divine essence, and between the divine relations and the divine essence? Can you find a Catholic authority who would confirm that?

    Second, I think that you have made a good point accidentally. You are correct that the kind of relationship between the divine attributes and the divine essence is the same kind of relationship as that between the divine relations and the divine essence. G-L actually agrees with this, and so do I. After all, I have been pointing out repeatedly that the language that Aquinas uses to describe the distinction between the divine attributes is the same language that he uses to describe the distinction between the divine relations and the divine essence. Regarding the distinction between goodness and being, he writes that goodness and being “are really the same, and differ only in idea” (ST 1.5.1), and regarding the distinction between the divine persons and the divine essence, he writes that “relation really existing in God is really the same as His essence and only differs in its mode of intelligibility” (ST 1.28.2). This leads me to conclude that they are one and the same kind of distinction.

    The question is what kind of distinction. I am arguing that it is a notional distinction, and you are arguing that it is a kind of real distinction. Certainly, it cannot be both, because a distinction is either notional (i.e. only in the mind) or real (i.e. not only in the mind).

    Here’s Feser describing the relationship between the divine attributes and the divine essence:

    “Talking or conceiving of God, God’s essence, God’s existence, God’s power, God’s goodness, and so forth are really all just different ways of talking or conceiving of one and the same thing. Though we distinguish between them in thought, there is no distinction at all between them in reality. For again, if there were such a distinction, then we could distinguish parts in God, and being absolutely simple, God has no parts” (Aquinas, p. 127).

    Notice how Feser says that “there is no distinction at all between them in reality” but “we distinguish between them in thought”. That is the precise definition of a notional distinction, and that means that the distinction between the divine relations and the divine essence – if it is the same relationship as that between the divine attributes and the divine essence – must be a notional distinction, as well, which is necessarily the absence of any kind of real distinction.

    So, the issue is whether the following can both be true:

    (1) The divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence in some way
    (2) The divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence in no way

    Clearly, (1) and (2) cannot both be true.

    Of course.

    So, you agree that there are no real distinctions of any kind between the divine relations and the divine essence.

    You do know if I say BenYachov's soul is physically identical to James Scott IV's I am not saying my soul is physical or material right?

    What you said makes absolutely no sense. You are saying that there is an identity of a physical kind, which exists between non-physical entities. That is nonsense. And I’m still waiting for that Catholic quote that says that the divine relations are physically identical to one another. Actually, I’m waiting for a single quote that supports anything that you’ve said in the last two days! But I forget, you are the official mouthpiece of the Catholic Church who cannot be questioned or doubted, especially by an atheist ex-Muslim like myself! LOL.

    ReplyDelete
  28. What am I saying? Of course you are or your just busting chops for it's own sake.

    Or both.

    ReplyDelete
  29. >What you said makes absolutely no sense.

    What you have been saying to me makes no sense to me either.

    So why do you wish to continue?

    I don't.

    ReplyDelete
  30. >So, you agree that there are no real distinctions of any kind between the divine relations and the divine essence.

    You cannot say there are mysterious distinctions between the relations and essence because divine revelation doesn't make that claim so we can't.

    At best you can say the essence contains mysterious real distinctions.

    The distinctions are mysterious so in principle you can't affirm anything beyond revelation about them.

    ReplyDelete
  31. >You are saying that there is an identity of a physical kind, which exists between non-physical entities.

    I said no such thing & I meant no such thing. You are just trying to bust chops.

    ReplyDelete
  32. BTW G-L is talking about Attributes in relation to essence. Feser is talking about attributes in the context of being and essence.

    Your equivocating yet again.

    You made this stupid claim before.

    I corrected you in one ear out the other.....

    ReplyDelete
  33. I've stated I believe the divine relations are identical to the essence.

    Hundreds of times. You can't take yes for an answer.

    ReplyDelete
  34. It's crazy for me to treat dguller like he is honest and sincere based on his performance thus far.

    But there is a small part of me that remembers when I liked him & wish we could go back to the way it was but as Jack once told me that dguller didn't really exist except in my imagination(I am losely paraphrasing him but that is the idea.)

    Oh well.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Ben:

    You cannot say there are mysterious distinctions between the relations and essence because divine revelation doesn't make that claim so we can't.



    At best you can say the essence contains mysterious real distinctions.


    So, when you say that the divine relations are really identical to the divine essence, would you agree that this means that the divine relations and the divine essence differ only in our minds, and thus do not differ in any way in reality, i.e. that the divine relations is not really distinct from the divine essence in any way?

    Would you also agree that if the divine relations are not really distinct in any way from the divine essence, then it is logically impossible for the divine relations to be really distinct in some way from the divine essence? And before you complain that I’m asking you if you beat your wife, or some other such nonsense, remember that Aquinas himself asks “[w]hether relation in God is the same as His essence” (ST 1.28.2), and “[w]hether in God the essence is the same as the person” (ST 1.39.1). So, asking my questions are not inappropriate at all.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Like I said hundreds of times....& still can't take yes for an answer.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Ben:

    Just to recap.

    I said: “There are no real distinctions of any kind between the divine relations and the divine essence.”

    You replied: “Of course.”

    I take this to mean that you agree that the divine relations are not really distinct from the divine essence in any way.

    You also said: “I've stated I believe the divine relations are identical to the essence.”

    I take this to mean that you agree that the divine relations are really identical to the divine essence.

    If I’ve understood you correctly, then the only remaining question is whether you agree that the following propositions are logically contradictory:

    (1) A is really distinct from B in some way (= real distinction)
    (2) A is really distinct from B in no way (= notional distinction)

    Or, here’s an equivalent way to look at it:

    (3) A is only distinct from B in the mind (= notional distinction)
    (4) A is not only distinct from B in the mind (= real distinction)

    ReplyDelete
  38. Does A=divine relations & B=divine essence?

    Or does A=Father and B= Son?

    ReplyDelete
  39. A = divine relations
    B = divine essence

    ReplyDelete
  40. Your misunderstanding of G-L vs Feser not withstanding.

    Real nor not real are our only categories.

    ReplyDelete
  41. So? What's your answer?

    Is it possible for (1) and (2) -- or (3) and (4) -- to both be true of the exact same A and B?

    ReplyDelete
  42. >October 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM

    Then we are definitely talking past one another because I believe as a Catholic the persons are really distinct from the other persons.

    I don't believe the persons are really distinct from the essence because THE FATHER IS GOD, THE SON IS GOD AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD but there are not three Gods but one God.

    If the Persons where mysteriously distinct from the essence then the essence would be a fourth person.

    That is not allowed.

    Can we stop now?

    ReplyDelete
  43. Ben:

    I am asking if the following propositions can both be true:

    (1) A is really distinct from B in some way (= real distinction)
    (2) A is really distinct from B in no way (= notional distinction)

    Or, here’s an equivalent way to look at it:

    (3) A is only distinct from B in the mind (= notional distinction)
    (4) A is not only distinct from B in the mind (= real distinction)

    It's quote simple. Either yes, they are logically consistent, or no, they are not logically consistent. Personally, I think that they are not logically consistent, but I would like to know what you think.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I'll make it simple for you.

    If someone told you that the divine relations were really distinct from the divine essence in some way and also told you that the divine relations were not really distinct from the divine essence in any way, then would you agree that this is possible? Or would you tell them that they are endorsing two claims that are logically impossible when taken together?

    Hmmmmm?

    ReplyDelete
  45. I am going to pretend one more time dguller is honest. I am stubbornly hopeful. It comes from having Autistic children.

    >If someone told you that the divine relations were really distinct from the divine essence in some way and also told you that the divine relations were not really distinct from the divine essence in any way, then would you agree that this is possible?

    No that would violate the principle of contradiction. You would be claiming A & Not A at the same time and in the same sense.

    But as a Catholic Christian studying the Trinity I have never ever heard of someone saying the divine persons are distinct from the divine essence in some mysterious way or in anyway. In fact I may have read that such a thing is not possible since it would make the divine essence a fourth person.

    The divine persons are only mysteriously distinct from one relation to another one. They are not mysteriously distinct from the divine essence. We are Trinitarians not Quadritarians & such a formula for a "Quanternity" would be a logical contradiction.

    The doctrine as I cited from Ott is that the persons are really distinct from one another in some mysterious way & not in any really physical or metaphysical way.

    >Or would you tell them that they are endorsing two claims that are logically impossible when taken together?

    I would tell them such logically contradictory stuff is not what I have been taught to believe as a Trinitarian Orthodox Catholic Christian or what I learned to believe. Also it is not what I objectively now believe nor will I ever be persuaded to believe it. Plus it's a fools errant to even try to claim it is what Aquinas taught. He would have been condemned & thrown out of the Church.

    It's that simple. If you are waiting for a positive account for what it must be to be mysterious really distinct persons one from another that are not in anyway really distinct from being that which is not really physically or metaphysically distinct you will wait in vain.

    It's still an absolute mystery. But the actual doctrine contains no logical contradiction.

    Are we done now?

    ReplyDelete
  46. Ben:

    No that would violate the principle of contradiction. You would be claiming A & Not A at the same time and in the same sense.

    Good!

    But as a Catholic Christian studying the Trinity I have never ever heard of someone saying the divine persons are distinct from the divine essence in some mysterious way or in anyway. In fact I may have read that such a thing is not possible since it would make the divine essence a fourth person.

    Great!

    Are we done now?

    Almost!

    Given the above, you would agree that if it could be demonstrated that the divine relations must be really distinct from the divine essence in some way, then that would logically contradict with the claim the divine relations cannot be really distinct from the divine essence in any way?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Ben:

    Here's the argument that demonstrates that the divine relations are really distinct in some way from the divine essence:

    (1) A is really distinct from B iff there is a principle of distinction that (a) provides an account of the difference between A and B, and (b) cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common
    (2) The divine persons are really distinct from one another (in a non-physical and non-metaphysical way)

    (3) Therefore, there is a principle of distinction between the divine persons that cannot be really identical what the divine persons have in common (by (1), (2))
    (4) The principle of distinction that accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons is the divine relations
    (5) The divine persons share the exact same divine essence in common
    (6) Therefore, the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence (by (3), (4), (5))
    (7) A is really identical to B if and only if A and B are notionally distinct
    (8) A is notionally distinct from B if and only if (a) A is not really distinct from B in any way, and (b) A differs from B only in the mind
    (9) Therefore, the divine relations cannot be notionally distinct from the divine essence (by (6), (7))
    (10) Therefore, the divine relations must be really distinct from the divine essence in some way (by (8), (9))

    ReplyDelete
  48. Ben:

    The second part of the argument is as follows:

    (11) The divine relations are really identical to the divine essence
    (12) Therefore, the divine relations cannot be really distinct from the divine essence in any way (by (7), (8), (11))
    (13) Therefore, (10) contradicts (12)

    Now, we are done.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Still pretending dguller is acting in good faith. I still have stubborn hope……….even thought my natural cynicism tells me it it futile.

    >Given the above, you would agree that if it could be demonstrated that the divine relations must be really distinct from the divine essence in some way, then that would logically contradict with the claim the divine relations cannot be really distinct from the divine essence in any way?

    The only way that could be done if there was a divine revelation that claimed the divine relations where somehow mysteriously really distinct from the essence. But Catholicism has never taught any such thing so any "revelation" would be from a religion I reject & one that is not Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy or general Christianity.

    You can't in principle given the dogma & teaching of the absolute mystery make any meaningful rational argument the essence must be mysteriously distinct from the divine essence.

    Thus any attempted rational argument you make no matter how formally sound I must dismiss in principle because it can't be known based on reason alone the divine essence contains any type of mysterious distinct person of any kind without a divine revelation I accept telling me so much less extending that to some weird mysterious distinction between relations and essence.

    BTW enough of the A=B crap. That is not how we formulate doctrine. We make doctrinal statements with formal content. You could have saved me a lot of agita if you just asked point blank "Are there mysterious real distinctions between divine relations and divine essence".

    Would that have been hard? I think not.

    Now are we done?

    ReplyDelete
  50. The principle of distinction merely means the Persons are distinct by being real opposing relations one to another and they share the same essence in common which as Ott says is not the basis of their distinction.

    It does not mean the persons/relations are really distinct in any way from the essence.

    Your arguments in October 23, 2013 at 5:25 PM etc I won't even look at or consider because in principle I don't believe it is possible to know by any rational method any type of mysterious real distinction that is not a real physical or metaphysical distinction can be known to exist in anyway in the Godhead unless God Himself tells me so threw Scripture, Apostolic Tradition & Church or some such revelation I accept.

    Since no Council or Pope teaches such a thing(& I've read them all Councils at one point on doctrinal matters). I can't believe it.

    Now are we done?

    ReplyDelete
  51. Ben:

    The only way that could be done if there was a divine revelation that claimed the divine relations where somehow mysteriously really distinct from the essence. But Catholicism has never taught any such thing so any "revelation" would be from a religion I reject & one that is not Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy or general Christianity.

    I’ve provided an argument that demonstrates that the divine relations are really distinct in some way from the divine essence.

    Thus any attempted rational argument you make no matter how formally sound I must dismiss in principle because it can't be known based on reason alone the divine essence contains any type of mysterious distinct person of any kind without a divine revelation I accept telling me so much less extending that to some weird mysterious distinction between relations and essence.

    But it can be known by reason alone. In fact, I have demonstrated its truth based upon premises that Aquinas himself endorses. And if the argument is “formally sound”, then the truth of the conclusions necessarily follows the truth of the premises. To reject a sound argument is to reject logic itself. Furthermore, it completely undermines your very position, because even your reasons for rejecting the sound argument in question presuppose the very rules of logic that you have just tossed out the window, and so your epistemic claims end up undoing themselves into incoherence.

    So, Ben, you were lying when you told me before that it was impossible for the Trinity to result in a logical contradiction. In fact, it does result in a logical contradiction, as I just demonstrated. It would have been more honest of you to say that you simply do not care if your religious doctrines were logically consistent or not. Your belief is beyond logic and reason, and thus can never be undermined by silly things like logical impossibility.

    The principle of distinction merely means the Persons are distinct by being real opposing relations one to another and they share the same essence in common which as Ott says is not the basis of their distinction.

    What is common between A and B cannot be really identical to what is not common between A and B, because that is the logical equivalent of saying that X is really identical to not-X. So, the principle of distinction cannot be really identical to what is common, and if the principle of distinction is the divine relations and what is common is the divine essence, then the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence.

    It does not mean the persons/relations are really distinct in any way from the essence.

    It does, unless you want to accept that what is common between A and B is really identical to what is not common between A and B. But I suppose you have no interest in logical consistency, so go for it!

    Your arguments in October 23, 2013 at 5:25 PM etc I won't even look at or consider because in principle I don't believe it is possible to know by any rational method any type of mysterious real distinction that is not a real physical or metaphysical distinction can be known to exist in anyway in the Godhead unless God Himself tells me so threw Scripture, Apostolic Tradition & Church or some such revelation I accept.

    You’re just like the atheist who refuses to look at Aquinas’ arguments, because … well, they couldn’t possibly be right. Good for you. I suppose you’re the Gnu and not me!

    ReplyDelete
  52. >I’ve provided an argument that demonstrates that the divine relations are really distinct in some way from the divine essence.

    Then you are not discussing the doctrine of Trinity with me but something you made up.

    >But it can be known by reason alone.

    No you can't even in principle rationally know the existence of something that is defined as beyond human reason and can only be known to exist by divine revelation.

    >So, Ben, you were lying when you told me before that it was impossible for the Trinity to result in a logical contradiction.

    Any hope I might have had that you are really honest deep down is dead right now.

    >You’re just like the atheist who refuses to look at Aquinas’ arguments, because … well, they couldn’t possibly be right. Good for you. I suppose you’re the Gnu and not me! .

    Rather if I was an Atheist I would consider you an embarrassing Gnu no better then djindra or Paps. How can you make a logical argument for something that cannot be known to exist by mere human logic and only from revelation alone? Considering what Aquinas said on mystery what you claim is logically impossible.

    So it is as I said. You are arguing a doctrine you made up. Not one anyone here believes in.

    >Your belief is beyond logic and reason, and thus can never be undermined by silly things like logical impossibility.

    Rather my belief objectively lacks as it's formal content any idea any type of mysterious real distinction can be known to exist in the Godhead by the deductions of human reason alone apart from divine revelation.

    There is no divine revelation telling us a mysterious real distinction exists between divine relations and essence. Thus we cannot ever know that it exists. Divine relations and Mysterious real distinctions are not attributes that can be known by human reason alone.

    This is no different then when you kept insisting the incarnation meant God changed his unchangeable nature into a changeable human nature.

    We are done.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Garrigou-Lagrange on CHAPTER VI: QUESTION 32 THE KNOWABILITY OF THE DIVINE PERSONS

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/theology/trinity.htm#06

    From Aquinas himself

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1032.htm#article1

    http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles4.htm#1

    Good luck showing that Aquinas has ever taught Mysterious relations can be known by reason alone.

    Good luck showing he ever said there was a mysterious real distinction between relations and essence. in the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Keep pretending you understand the doctrine of the Trinity dguller.

    It will impress Gnus with no theological or philosophical understanding. But knowledgable Christians will either laugh or shake their heads.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anyway dguller here is a threat I am making.

    No it is not to do you any harm since that would be immoral & I abhor violence except in video game or self defense.

    The next time the Trinity is brought up here I will announce to others you believe the doctrine teaches there is a mysterious real distinction between divine relations and divine essence comparable to the mysterious real distinctions between opposing relations.

    I will also inform everyone you claim Aquinas teaches this concept.

    I will also point out you reject Aquinas argument that the Trinity cannot be known by natural reason alone or that any mysterious relation can be known by reason alone.

    I will refer back to this thread for proof.

    Let's see if anyone here after that think you really understand the Trinity.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Mind if I jump in?

    Dguller, I think you're reading like a Protestant. You look at all these textual authorities sans tradition and extract the "plain" meaning.

    You'll try to understand what Aquinas means by "relation", "essence", and so on *just* from thinking about the way Aquinas uses these words. No matter how sophisticated your analysis of the text is, however, you can't place it over the living, breathing tradition in which Aquinas spoke and still speaks.

    I'm not making an argument from revelation--I just think that if several truckloads of Thomists come in and say "THAT'S NOT THE CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF AQUINAS", it's probably not the correct interpretation of Aquinas.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Ben:

    Then you are not discussing the doctrine of Trinity with me but something you made up.

    How would you know since you won’t even look at the argument?

    Good luck showing that Aquinas has ever taught Mysterious relations can be known by reason alone.

    Ben, focus. I’m not saying that I’ve demonstrated anything by reason alone. I’ve demonstrated a logical contradiction based upon premises that are both from reason and revelation. For example, the premises that deal with the divine persons and the divine relations involve truths of revelation, and not truths of reason. But so what? Based upon premises that Aquinas himself accepts, I’ve deduced a logical contradiction. Unless you can show that some of my premises are false, then the conclusion is true.

    Again, these are the premises:

    (1) A is really distinct from B iff there is a principle of distinction that (a) provides an account of the difference between A and B, and (b) cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common


    (2) The divine persons are really distinct from one another (in a non-physical and non-metaphysical way)


    (4) The principle of distinction that accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons is the divine relations


    (5) The divine persons share the exact same divine essence in common

    (7) A is really identical to B if and only if A and B are notionally distinct


    (8) A is notionally distinct from B if and only if (a) A is not really distinct from B in any way, and (b) A differs from B only in the mind

    (11) The divine relations are really identical to the divine essence

    I can just each and every premise with a quotation from Aquinas and Emery, both of which you accept as authoritative, which means that my premises are true. And since the logical structure is valid, the argument itself is sound.

    And again, it has nothing to do with proving something from reason alone, but rather involves the deduction of a logical contradiction from truths of reason and revelation.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Ty:

    Have a look at my premises, and help me to see how any of them are false.

    Here they are:

    (1) A is really distinct from B iff there is a principle of distinction that (a) provides an account of the difference between A and B, and (b) cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common


    (2) The divine persons are really distinct from one another (in a non-physical and non-metaphysical way)


    (4) The principle of distinction that accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons is the divine relations


    (5) The divine persons share the exact same divine essence in common

    (7) A is really identical to B if and only if A and B are notionally distinct


    (8) A is notionally distinct from B if and only if (a) A is not really distinct from B in any way, and (b) A differs from B only in the mind

    (11) The divine relations are really identical to the divine essence

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Ty:

    And just so you know, I am open to the possibility that I'm misinterpreting something. But I do not accept someone just saying that I've gotten it wrong without providing an authoritative text or source that explains how my interpretation is wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Ty

    Like with Glenn seeing how two faced dguller is I am glad others see he acts just like a Protestant fundamentalist.

    If you go back a hundred post I make the same charge.

    He proof texts. He starts by believing the doctrine of the Trinity must have a logical contradiction.

    So he formulates one that no historic Trinitarian Christian has ever believed or could believe. Calls it the Trinity and reads it back into writers like Aquinas.

    Anti-Catholic Protestants like James White or William Webster do the same reading Calvinism back into Augustine & sometimes Aquinas.

    Of course it would be fun if dguller tried his "trinity" nonsense on James White. He has written some good stuff on the Trinity. Fr. Pacwa endorsed it.

    Even Dr Art Sippo who absolutely can't stand White I believe has endorsed his book on the subject.


    Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Ben:

    The next time the Trinity is brought up here I will announce to others you believe the doctrine teaches there is a mysterious real distinction between divine relations and divine essence comparable to the mysterious real distinctions between opposing relations.

    Ben, I’m terrified.

    And just to be clear, I do not claim that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there is a real distinction of some kind between the divine persons and the divine essence. In fact, the doctrine teaches the opposite position, i.e. that there is no real distinction of any kind between the divine persons and the divine essence. What I do claim is that, given other Thomist premises, which are combinations of truths of reason and truths of revelation, one can deduce that there is a real distinction of some kind between the divine persons and the divine essence, and that contradicts with the claims of the doctrine of the Trinity.

    I will also point out you reject Aquinas argument that the Trinity cannot be known by natural reason alone or that any mysterious relation can be known by reason alone.

    That’s not what I’m arguing at all. I’m arguing that one can deduce a logical contradiction on the basis of truths of reason and truths of revelation, and not from truths of reason alone.

    So he formulates one that no historic Trinitarian Christian has ever believed or could believe. Calls it the Trinity and reads it back into writers like Aquinas.

    First, you haven’t shown how any of my premises are false. You haven’t even been able to cite or quote any Catholic authorities that demonstrate that my premises are false. At least I have supported them with quotations from Aquinas and Emery. As I’ve been saying for two days, you have nothing.

    Second, you still haven’t provided Catholic texts that justify your claim that the divine relations are physically identical to one another.

    ReplyDelete
  61. >I’ve demonstrated a logical contradiction based upon premises that are both from reason and revelation.

    You have given no divine revelation to back up your claims.

    Divine revelation says there are subsisting relations that are really distinct by opposition & that we can only know this to be true by the Bible and Tradition and Church.

    But there is no Council or Pope who has ever claimed there are mysterious real distinctions between relations and essence.

    Even Aquinas doesn't say that at all explicitly. You assume that & then read it back into his writings.

    But I can find explicit statements from Ott that the relations are really distinct in some mysterious fashion.

    There is nothing in his list of Catholic dogmas that ever claims relations are myseriously distinct from essence.

    Check it out yourself.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20080618064450/http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchdocuments/dogmas.cfm

    ReplyDelete
  62. Ben:

    You have given no divine revelation to back up your claims.

    The conclusion follows from the premises, some of which are derived from divine revelation.

    Divine revelation says there are subsisting relations that are really distinct by opposition & that we can only know this to be true by the Bible and Tradition and Church.

    That’s fine. In fact, that’s premise (2) of my argument!

    But there is no Council or Pope who has ever claimed there are mysterious real distinctions between relations and essence.

    I know. And yet it follows from true premises, and thus must be true, unless you want to reject some premises as false. But then the question is which ones?

    Even Aquinas doesn't say that at all explicitly. You assume that & then read it back into his writings.

    I know. And yet it follows from his principles, which are derived from truths of reason and truths of revelation.

    There is nothing in his list of Catholic dogmas that ever claims relations are myseriously distinct from essence.

    I never said it was a “Catholic dogma”. I only said that it could be deduced from Catholic dogma, i.e. a combination of true premises that are derived from truths of reason and truths of revelation.

    Just look:

    We both agree that the following premises are true (from October 23, 2013 at 3:48 PM):

    (2) The divine persons are really distinct from one another (in a non-physical and non-metaphysical way)




    (11) The divine relations are really identical to the divine essence

    That leaves the following premises as those that you might dispute:

    (1) A is really distinct from B iff there is a principle of distinction that (a) provides an account of the difference between A and B, and (b) cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common

    (4) The principle of distinction that accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons is the divine relations




    (5) The divine persons share the exact same divine essence in common

    (7) A is really identical to B if and only if A and B are notionally distinct




    (8) A is notionally distinct from B if and only if (a) A is not really distinct from B in any way, and (b) A differs from B only in the mind

    Which of these is false, Ben? Aquinas himself accepts them all.

    ReplyDelete
  63. >I do not claim that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there is a real distinction of some kind between the divine persons and the divine essence. In fact, the doctrine teaches the opposite position...

    Good backpedal!

    But of course then you can't claim a logical contradiction.

    Since you positively claim "if the divine relations were really distinct from the divine essence in some way and also that the divine relations were not really distinct from the divine essence in any way, then would you agree that this is impossible".

    Your words not mine. But since the doctrine doesn't
    teach that then there can be no logical contradiction.

    QED.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Ben:

    Good backpedal!

But of course then you can't claim a logical contradiction.

    Of course, I can. I can deduce a logical contradiction based upon premises that are themselves derived from truths of reason and truths of revelation. I’ve listed them quite nicely for you, and if you reject some of them, then just tell me which ones. The fact that you refuse to do so speaks volumes, because I think that you know that you cannot reject them, and yet cannot accept them, either, because they lead to a logical contradiction. So, you are stuck, and are flailing about hurling rude epithets and pursuing red herrings and non sequiters that are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

    Since you positively claim "if the divine relations were really distinct from the divine essence in some way and also that the divine relations were not really distinct from the divine essence in any way, then would you agree that this is impossible".

    Yes, and I’ve demonstrated that this logical contradiction follows from premises that Aquinas himself would accept. And since you have given me absolutely no reason to reject any of them, then I have to believe that my conclusion stands.

    ReplyDelete
  65. How does reason show us based on the know Catholic doctrines that the mysterious real distinctions and the divine essence must be really distinct in some mysterious way?

    Aquinas just argued that there is no real distinction between relations and essence. dguller cited the argument and G-L agrees and so do I.

    Stated simply.


    ReplyDelete
  66. Ben:

    And one last thing.

    Aquinas writes that “this doctrine does not argue in proof of its principles, which are the articles of faith, but from them it goes on to prove something else” and that “this doctrine argues from articles of faith to other truths” (ST 1.1.8). So, there is nothing wrong with taking truths of revelation and using them to “prove something else” or argue “to other truths”. That’s all I’m doing. I’m taking truths of reason and truths of revelation, and reasoning to a logical contradiction, which should falsify the truths of reason and/or truths of revelation in question.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Ben:

    How does reason show us based on the know Catholic doctrines that the mysterious real distinctions and the divine essence must be really distinct in some mysterious way?

    Like this:

    (1) A is really distinct from B iff there is a principle of distinction that (a) provides an account of the difference between A and B, and (b) cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common

    (2) The divine persons are really distinct from one another (in a non-physical and non-metaphysical way)


    (3) Therefore, there is a principle of distinction between the divine persons that cannot be really identical what the divine persons have in common (by (1), (2))

    (4) The principle of distinction that accounts for the real distinction between the divine persons is the divine relations

    (5) The divine persons share the exact same divine essence in common

    (6) Therefore, the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence (by (3), (4), (5))

    (7) A is really identical to B if and only if A and B are notionally distinct

    (8) A is notionally distinct from B if and only if (a) A is not really distinct from B in any way, and (b) A differs from B only in the mind

    (9) Therefore, the divine relations cannot be notionally distinct from the divine essence (by (6), (7))

    (10) Therefore, the divine relations must be really distinct from the divine essence in some way (by (8), (9))

    Aquinas just argued that there is no real distinction between relations and essence. dguller cited the argument and G-L agrees and so do I.

    I agree. That is why the claim that there is no real distinction of any kind between the divine relations and the divine essence is steps (11) and (12) in my argument. Get it? I accept them as true, and thus have included them in the argument itself.

    ReplyDelete
  68. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  69. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  70. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Yeh Scott is right (1) is wrong.


    The principle of distinction in no way leads us to conclude there is any type of real distinction of any kind between divine relations and essence.

    Reason can tell us if real physical or metaphysical distinctions are present or we can rationally conclude since God's essence is identical to his being that any divine relations or attributes will not be really physically or metaphysically distinct from the essence.

    But we can't know relations are really distinct in some mysterious way apart from revelation telling us.

    So how can we ever know there is some mysterious real distinction between relations and essence without revelation telling us?

    We can't.


    (1) is not correct & arguing the similarity between the way Aquinas argues for no real distinction between relations and essence or attributes and essence doesn't lead to the conclusion that relations have a mysterious real distinction with the essence.

    ReplyDelete
  72. >hether relation in God is the same as His essence” (ST 1.28.2), and “[w]hether in God the essence is the same as the person” (ST 1.39.1). So, asking my questions are not inappropriate at all.


    Aquinas from ST 1.28.2)
    Now whatever has an accidental existence in creatures, when considered as transferred to God, has a substantial existence; for there is no accident in God; since all in Him is His essence. So, in so far as relation has an accidental existence in creatures, relation really existing in God has the existence of the divine essence in no way distinct therefrom. But in so far as relation implies respect to something else, no respect to the essence is signified, but rather to its opposite term.

    Aquinas from ST 1.39.1

    in creatures relations are accidental, whereas in God they are the divine essence itself. Thence it follows that in God essence is not really distinct from person; and yet that the persons are really distinguished from each other. For person, as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.

    I still don't see how anyone can conclude from what Aquinas has written that there must be mysterious real distinction between the relations and essence.

    If he meant to ever say that he would have taught it & he wouldn't be a Saint but a heretic or at best if it went unnoticed & uncorrected by the Church he would be in mere error.

    So I am not getting how the principle of distinction mandates relations and essence must have at least some mysterious real distinction that is neither physical or metaphysical.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Yes (1) is wrong let us plug in the terms shall we.


    (1) Relartions(A) are really distinct from Essence(B) iff there is a principle of distinction that (a) provides an account of the difference between Relations and Essence.

    But the only accounts of distinction between them according to human reason are not real as shown by Aquinas. They are not real physical or metaphysical distinctions. Neither virtual, logical nor notional distinctions are real distinctions by definition. There is no way to know there is a mysteriously distinction (which is not a real Physical & metaphysical distinction) between Relations & Essence because there is no divine revelation to tell us in the Catholic tradition that this is the case & in 2000 years the Church has never defined such a thing. Plus I still cannot see how reason or logic can make it appear out of the Ather?


    > and (b) cannot be really identical to what Relations and Essence have in common.

    Aquinas clearly says persons are really distinguished from each other (which are the mysterious real distinctions which cannot be known to us by yuma reason). So I can conclude the Father is really not the same person as the Son by virtue of Him not being begotten like the Son but being the one who begets & this is all a great absolute mystery.

    But none of this has anything to do with the fact neither the Father nor the Son or divine relations in general are really distinct from the Essence in any fashion.

    The Father is nor the same divine person as the Son. Yet both are the same God. They are no two separate Gods nor does one produce the other by actualizing a potency that becomes a person. But in some mysterious sense one is not the same Who as the Other but both are the same What.

    So I am still not seeing how logic in anyway via the principle of distinction mandates the relations and essence must be somehow in some fashion really distinct.

    I am threw being mad at dguller but I don't see any logical contradiction.

    ReplyDelete
  74. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  75. So my conclusion withholding moral judgment of dguller as a person.

    This argument fails out of the gate.

    Aquinas Principle of distinction in no way shows any type of real distinction between relations and essence not even the mysterious kind.

    There are mysterious real distinctions between opposing relations that are not any type of real physical or metaphysical distinctions & this can only be known by divine revelation only.

    But there is no real distinction of any kind between relations and essence.

    Virtual, logical, and notional distinctions are not by definition real ones.

    They are not physical that is not divisions into parts or composition.

    They are not metaphysical potencies being made actual.

    They are not mysterious real distinctions which we can't know exist in the Godhead without divine revelation to tell us.

    So even if I loose my faith & deny God exists based on what I know now I would still label dguller's argument 100% failure & not the product of logic.

    ReplyDelete
  76. I removed what I didn't need and focused on the heart of the manner.

    ReplyDelete
  77. >First, you haven’t shown how any of my premises are false. You haven’t even been able to cite or quote any Catholic authorities that demonstrate that my premises are false. At least I have supported them with quotations from Aquinas and Emery. As I’ve been saying for two days, you have nothing.

    By your own admission Aquinas never explicitly says relations and essence are really distinct in some way. Neither does Emery or G-L make such explicit claims. There are no Catholic authorities that have ever made your "argument". This is by your own admission based on your "deductions" from their writings and from existing Catholic doctrines but as we see when we plug in the terms for A and B there is no way the principle of distinction can lead us to rationally conclude there must be some type of real distinction between A & B.

    Thus there is no rational way to conclude A&B both have no real distinctions of any type and at the same time and in the same sense have real distinction of some type.

    You are a master sophist dguller but lousy at actual logic.

    Here is the first premise of your argument spelled out.

    Divine relations are really distinct from divine essence iff there is a principle of distinction that provides an account of the difference between relations and essence, and (b) cannot be really identical to what relations and essence have in common
.

    But divine relations and divine essence are not really distinct. At best between A&B there is some type of non-real distinction that is either virtual, minor virtual, logical or notional etc…..but no type of real distinction either physical, metaphysical or mysterious..

    Divine relations are really distinct one to another(mysterious real distinction) but they are not virtually distinct, minor virtually distinct, logically distinct or notionally distinct one to another only to the essence at best.

    Now I am not going to sort out virtual, minor virtual etc& what theologian says what….I don't care. But clearly the principle of distinction cannot show any type of real distinction between A&B.

    Thus your argument has no logical meaning and fails at it's first premise.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Here is another authority assuming dguller doesn't move the goal posts.

    The Simplicity of God by Bernard Boedder S.J.

    http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/nath09.htm

    At the end I quote footnote {9} "Real distinction does not necessarily mean real composition, nor does virtual distinction necessarily mean virtual composition. For things to be compounded they must first be distinct; but, given the existence of distinct things, it is not necessary that they should be compounded together into a unity. Catholic Theology recognizes a real distinction between the three Divine Persons, because They are, as "substantial" relations within the One Godhead, opposed to one another; but it is not constrained in consequence to admit that the Godhead is really compounded of Them, because it teaches that each Person is not really distinct from, but really identical with, the Essence of the Divinity. Again, Catholic Theology recognizes a virtual distinction between the Divine Essence and each Divine Person, but it does not teach us that the Divine Essence is virtually compounded of the three Persons, because the concept of each Divine Person does not prescind from, but involves the concept of the Divine Essence. These observations show us that the mystery of the Blessed Trinity is opposed neither to the physical nor to the metaphysical simplicity of God."END QUOTE

    So there is a virtual distinction between relations/persons and essence but no real one. The real distinctions are only between relations and persons.

    ReplyDelete
  79. One may want to read the whole article.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Look what G-L wrote in the prefix of his book on the Trinity which is his commentary on the Summa on the Trinity.

    Here it is on line.

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/theology/trinity.htm


    Use the word find function on your browser and plug in the word "virtual distinction". Here is what comes up first.
    QUOTE"In the eleventh century Gilbert Porretanus, who although he is often called a Nominalist is really a realist, inclined to Tritheism in another way by teaching that the divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence. Extreme realism believes that the universal exists formally apart from the thing, and consequently Gilbert placed real distinctions where they do not exist, for example, in man between the metaphysical grades of being, substantiality, corporeity, life, animality, rationality, unmindful of the fact that all these things are reduced to one comprehensive concept of man."END

    So dguller's view is nothing but Tri-Theism.

    G-L agrees with Boedder QUOTEAmong the Latin Scholastics we find a notable difference caused by the controversy about universals, since some, like Scotus, placed between the divine essence and the persons a formal distinction, actual on the part of the thing, whereas the Nominalists made the distinction only verbal, such as exists between Tully and Cicero. The Thomists, however, and many other theologians called it a virtual distinction."

    ReplyDelete
  81. According to my Browser the term virtual distinction appears about 12 time & real distinction about 47 in G-L Here is my first hit on the later.

    QUOTE"Again, "No real distinction exists between the essence and the persons, but a real distinction exists between the persons among themselves."[42]
    Again, the three persons are one principle of operation without, because the divine operation without proceeds from the divine omnipotence, which is common to the three divine persons.[43]
    This definition of the Fourth Lateran Council was amplified by the Council of Florence (1439) in the dogmatic decree of the union of the Greeks: "We define that the Holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son and that He has His essence and His subsisting being simultaneously from the Father and the Son, and that He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and by one spiration."[44] Other definitions about each person in particular may be found here.
    The mystery of the Trinity may be more briefly stated as the mystery of one God in three divine persons. But in opposition to the pseudo-synod of Pistoia it should be said that it is not one God divided into three persons but one God in three distinct persons, since there is no real distinction in the Godhead Himself, as the Eleventh Council of Toledo declared: "The Godhead is not reduced to single persons and is not increased into three persons."[45]

    Other quotes:


    "….Sabellianism denied the real distinction between the three divine persons"


    "The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, and yet the Father is not the Son, because He does not generate Himself; nor is the Father the Holy Ghost, or the Son the Holy Ghost, because those who spirate are distinguished from that which is spirated as he who generates is distinguished from that which is generated. In the statement of this mystery we see the profound meaning of the word "is" and of the negation "is not." As St. Thomas says:[46] In every affirmative proposition about some reality the word "is" expresses the real identity of the subject and predicate. Here it expresses the real identity of the three divine persons with the divine essence, and the negation "is not" expresses the real distinction of the persons from each other. In this statement of the mystery the apparent contradiction is explained, that contradiction arising if God would be said to be one and three under the same aspects, e. g., nature.

    In the Catholic Catechism, written by Cardinal Gasparri, this mystery is defined as:
    (a) "God is one in the unity of nature in three really distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who constitute the Holy Trinity."[47] Thus the Father is the Godhead but He is not the Trinity.


    So much for you dguller.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Also if you use your browser and find function & plug in the phrase "principle of distinction" we get this….

    QUOTE""In this text also we find some indication that the principle of distinction between the two persons is the fact that one is begotten by the other, begotten not made: "I was conceived, I was brought forth." We find even some indication of the order of procession, and nothing of inequality: "I was set up from eternity."END

    So the divine person of Father is really distinct from the divine person of the Son iff there is a principle of distinction that (a) provides an account of the difference between the Father and the Son and and (b) cannot be really identical to what the Father and the Son have in common.

    They are relations in opposition one to another but they have the same identical essence without any real distinction.

    But I still don't see any reason to believe the principle of distinction logically mandates that divine relations are really distinct in some way from the essence.

    ReplyDelete
  83. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  84. >Aquinas writes that “this doctrine does not argue in proof of its principles, which are the articles of faith, but from them it goes on to prove something else” and that “this doctrine argues from articles of faith to other truths” (ST 1.1.8). So, there is nothing wrong with taking truths of revelation and using them to “prove something else” or argue “to other truths”.

    Wow you absolutely didn't read ST 1.1.8 at all did you?

    "Although arguments from human reason cannot avail to prove what must be received on faith, nevertheless, this doctrine argues from articles of faith to other truths.

    This doctrine is especially based upon arguments from authority, inasmuch as its principles are obtained by revelation: thus we ought to believe on the authority of those to whom the revelation has been made. Nor does this take away from the dignity of this doctrine, for although the argument from authority based on human reason is the weakest, yet the argument from authority based on divine revelation is the strongest. But sacred doctrine makes use even of human reason, not, indeed, to prove faith (for thereby the merit of faith would come to an end), but to make clear other things that are put forward in this doctrine.END

    Gee change the word slightly and radically alter their meaning why don't you!

    So how do we all know it must be received by Faith that divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence in some sense or that it is another truth lead there by reason from other truths?

    What authority has been given to you dguller by God so that we should accept these arguments made by your weak human reason apart from divinity & know them to be true?

    All "argue to other truths means" is if for example I except on faith the Grammar of the Trinity which is revealed I will always speak of the Trinity in such a way as to not confuse the Persons & not divide the Absolute essence.

    So many errors it's beyond human capacity to identify them all.

    But one truth as shown by reason remains solid. The doctrine of the Trinity contains no rationally provable logical fallacies.

    ReplyDelete
  85. I grow tired of this & I am even more convinced by my reason that dguller's argument has no logical argumentative content at all.

    ReplyDelete
  86. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  87. One last thought based on something Ty wrote.

    >Aquinas writes that “this doctrine does not argue in proof of its principles, which are the articles of faith, but from them it goes on to prove something else” and that “this doctrine argues from articles of faith to other truths” (ST 1.1.8). So, there is nothing wrong with taking truths of revelation and using them to “prove something else” or argue “to other truths”.

    But this is the Protestant heresy of Private Interpretation not the Catholic doctrine of the Authority of the Church.

    Every subject in the Summa about God up to Q26 is what we can know about god with unaided human reason alone.

    After that we require Scripture, Tradition and the Authority of the Church to formulate doctrine.

    If you drop the authority of the Church then you can come up with all sorts of weirdness with your own human reason infering from what has been revealed.

    The trouble is people can & do come up with different contradictory things & there is no reason to prefer their interpretation over any other.

    dguller has invented the doctrine of the real relations being really distinct in some way & not really distinct in anyway.

    Well Dr. Walter Martin the protestant evangelist and apologist rejected the divine processions. He thought the begetting of the Son only happen when the second Person became incarnate.

    Now he wasn't a Sabellian he believed the divine persons where really distinct from each other and not distinct in essence but they where not really relations in opposition. They where just persons 12&3 nominally named such.

    How is his reasoning any better than dguller? Or worst. Then there are the Jesus only Pentecostals & hundreds of other denominations that diverge.

    The late Dr. Martin like dguller rejects the authority of the Church when interpreting sacred doctrine.

    Sure his reasoning is "sound" given it's premises but accepting the authority of the Church is not one of his premises anymore than dguller.

    So I am rational if I never look at his argument because in principle i reject private interpretation.


    It's unworkable.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Ben:

    The principle of distinction in no way leads us to conclude there is any type of real distinction of any kind between divine relations and essence.

    Of course, it does. The principle of distinction between A and B cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common. If the principle of distinction between A and B were really identical to what A and B have in common, then it would follow that what A and B do not have in common is really identical to what A and B do have in common, which is a logical contradiction. It is tantamount to claiming that X is really identical to not-X, which is logically impossible. Thus, the principle of distinction between A and B cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common.

    Furthermore, if you reject that the principle of distinction between A and B cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common, then it follows that it is possible for A and B to have everything in common, and yet A is still really distinct from B. But that is impossible, because in order for A to be really distinct from B, A must differ from B in some way. Without that difference, there could be no distinction. There would only be real identity.

    So, if the principle of distinction between A and B cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common, and the principle of distinction between the divine persons is the divine relations, and what the divine persons have in common is the divine essence, then the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence.

    (1) is not correct & arguing the similarity between the way Aquinas argues for no real distinction between relations and essence or attributes and essence doesn't lead to the conclusion that relations have a mysterious real distinction with the essence.

    Sure, it does. To deny (1) is to embrace a logical contradiction (i.e. what A and B have in common is really identical to what A and B do not have in common), as well as other absurdities (i.e. A and B have everything in common, but A is really distinct from B). So, you cannot reject (1). And if (1) is true, then the divine relations must be really distinct from the divine essence in some way.

    ReplyDelete
  89. I still don't see how anyone can conclude from what Aquinas has written that there must be mysterious real distinction between the relations and essence.

    That’s because that conclusion is not based upon those Aquinas passages.

    It is based upon ST 1.40.2, where Aquinas writes: “In whatever multitude of things is to be found something common to all, it is necessary to seek out the principle of distinction”. He then says that “as the three persons agree in the unity of essence, we must seek to know the principle of distinction whereby they are several”, and he ultimately argues that the “principle of distinction” must be the divine relations themselves: “since the persons agree in essence, it only remains to be said that the persons are distinguished from each other by the relations”.

    From that passage, we can conclude that:

    (a) If A and B are really distinct, and A and B have something in common, then their real distinction cannot be explained by what A and B have in common
    (b) If A and B are really distinct, then their real distinction can only be explained by what A and B do not have in common (i.e. the principle of distinction)
    (c) The principle of distinction cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common
    (d) The divine persons are really distinct
    (e) The divine persons share the divine essence in common
    (f) The principle of distinction is the divine relations

    Although Aquinas does not explicitly draw this conclusion, when you put (a) to (f) together, you get the conclusion that the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence, which is equivalent to saying that the divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence in some way.

    But the only accounts of distinction between them according to human reason are not real as shown by Aquinas. They are not real physical or metaphysical distinctions. Neither virtual, logical nor notional distinctions are real distinctions by definition. There is no way to know there is a mysteriously distinction (which is not a real Physical & metaphysical distinction) between Relations & Essence because there is no divine revelation to tell us

    There is a way, and it is based upon premises that Aquinas explicitly endorses at ST 1.40.2, which I’ve explained above. From those premises, we can conclude that the divine relations must be really distinct from the divine essence in some way. We cannot conclude what kind of real distinction is involved, but only that there must be some kind of real distinction, or else you have the logical contradiction that what the divine persons have in common is really identical to what the divine persons do not have in common.

    Similarly, we can conclude from the cosmological argument that there is a simple reality that is pure act, even though we cannot fully understand what this means, and it will remain forever beyond our comprehension in important respects.

    Aquinas clearly says persons are really distinguished from each other (which are the mysterious real distinctions which cannot be known to us by yuma reason). So I can conclude the Father is really not the same person as the Son by virtue of Him not being begotten like the Son but being the one who begets & this is all a great absolute mystery.

    He clearly says that the divine persons are really distinct from one another on the basis of the different relations of origin. And he also clearly says that the real distinction between them cannot be based upon the divine essence, precisely because the divine essence is common. Therefore, the principle of distinction cannot be really identical to what they have in common. If it could be, then why did Aquinas explicitly reject the divine essence as a candidate for the principle of distinction precisely because it is common?

    ReplyDelete
  90. So I am still not seeing how logic in anyway via the principle of distinction mandates the relations and essence must be somehow in some fashion really distinct.

    That’s because you are refusing to look. It’s all there, Ben.

    By your own admission Aquinas never explicitly says relations and essence are really distinct in some way.

    That’s right. But he has clearly endorsed the very premises that lead to that conclusion, which means that if his premises are true, then the conclusion is true. Once again, you would have to explain how some of the premises are false. You have tried to reject (1), but I hope I’ve shown you that doing so leads to logical contradictions, absurdities, and rejects a principle that Aquinas himself explicitly endorses during a discussion of the Trinity.

    we see when we plug in the terms for A and B there is no way the principle of distinction can lead us to rationally conclude there must be some type of real distinction between A & B.

    Sure, it does. You just plugged the wrong A and B. In my argument, A and B are the divine persons. I never said that A is the divine relations and B is the divine essence. I said that if the divine persons are really distinct (as per Aquinas), then what the divine persons have in common cannot be really identical to what the divine persons do not have in common (as per Aquinas). What the divine persons have in common is the divine essence (as per Aquinas), and what the divine persons do not have in common is the divine relations (as per Aquinas). It necessarily follows that the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence, which means that the divine relations must be really distinct in some way from the divine essence. That’s the argument.

    Divine relations are really distinct from divine essence iff there is a principle of distinction that provides an account of the difference between relations and essence, and (b) cannot be really identical to what relations and essence have in common
.

    That is not the first premise of my argument, as I hope I have made clear.

    So there is a virtual distinction between relations/persons and essence but no real one. The real distinctions are only between relations and persons.

    We can discuss this issue, if you like, but first, you have to explain what the difference is between a real distinction, a virtual distinction, and a notional distinction. Personally, the only way that I can make sense of it is that a virtual distinction is just a kind of real distinction. Even G-L says that a virtual distinction is “grounded in reality”, which means that if A and B are virtually distinct, then A and B each correspond to something in reality such that the distinction between A and B is not only in the mind. And that is precisely the definition of real distinction. It is just a particular kind of real distinction.

    If you disagree, then explain what the difference is between a real distinction, a virtual distinction, and a notional distinction. Good luck!

    ReplyDelete
  91. According to my Browser the term virtual distinction appears about 12 time & real distinction about 47 in G-L Here is my first hit on the later.

    All of the quotes that you cited nicely establish that the divine relations cannot be really distinct in any way from the divine essence. I accept that, which is why I included precisely those points in my argument as premises (11) and (12). You can’t pretend like I’m just ignoring this point when I’ve explicitly included it in my argument. It just so happens that this logically contradicts the conclusion from other well-established premises, which is exactly the point.

    Wow you absolutely didn't read ST 1.1.8 at all did you?

    I did, actually. It says that reason cannot establish the truth of revelatory claims, but it can be applied to those revelatory claims in order to deduce other claims from them. And that’s all that I’m doing. I’m not claiming that the premises of my argument are all deducible from pure reason itself. They are combinations of truths of reason and truths of revelation. It’s just that they lead to a logical contradiction, and thus some of the premises must be rejected as false. The question is which one.

    ReplyDelete
  92. >Of course, it does. The principle of distinction between A and B cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common. If the principle of distinction between A and B were really identical to what A and B have in common, then it would follow that what A and B do not have in common is really identical to what A and B do have in common, which is a logical contradiction. It is tantamount to claiming that X is really identical to not-X, which is logically impossible. Thus, the principle of distinction between A and B cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common.

    This isn't logical argument or rebuttal this is merely naysaying. Your kidding right?

    >>) is not correct & arguing the similarity between the way Aquinas argues for no real distinction between relations and essence or attributes and essence doesn't lead to the conclusion that relations have a mysterious real distinction with the essence.

    >Sure, it does. To deny (1) is to embrace a logical contradiction (i.e. what A and B have in common is really identical to what A and B do not have in common), as well as other absurdities (i.e. A and B have everything in common, but A is really distinct from B). So, you cannot reject (1). And if (1) is true, then the divine relations must be really distinct from the divine essence in some way.

    Is this a monty python sketch? This is not a rebuttal nor a logical argument. This is merely argument by "yes it is" & "no it isn't".

    ReplyDelete
  93. >>I still don't see how anyone can conclude from what Aquinas has written that there must be mysterious real distinction between the relations and essence.

    >>That’s because that conclusion is not based upon those Aquinas passages.

    >It is based upon ST 1.40.2, where Aquinas writes: “In whatever multitude of things is to be found something common to all, it is necessary to seek out the principle of distinction”. He then says that “as the three persons agree in the unity of essence, we must seek to know the principle of distinction whereby they are several”, and he ultimately argues that the “principle of distinction” must be the divine relations themselves: “since the persons agree in essence, it only remains to be said that the persons are distinguished from each other by the relations”

    But none of this logically shows that divine relations must somehow be really distinct from essence it only shows the relations are distinct from one to another? We can't conclude (a) threw (f) because there is no way to get from the above to the idea relations are really distinct from essence.

    ReplyDelete
  94. >Although Aquinas does not explicitly draw this conclusion, when you put (a) to (f) together, you get the conclusion that the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence, which is equivalent to saying that the divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence in some way.

    Except (a) threw (f) are clearly to anyone with eyes ad hoc conclusions not rational arguments. How you can argue from Aquinas or from doctrinal principles in general that relations are somehow really distinct from essence is left hanging there an unarmed.

    >There is a way, and it is based upon premises that Aquinas explicitly endorses at ST 1.40.2, which I’ve explained above. From those premises, we can conclude that the divine relations must be really distinct from the divine essence in some way.

    You absolutely make no argument. You just assert A and B(divine relations & divine essence) are really distinct ad hoc but you give zero reasons. Wow this is beyond pathetic! I expect this from Paps. YIKES!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  95. >We cannot conclude what kind of real distinction is involved, but only that there must be some kind of real distinction, or else you have the logical contradiction that what the divine persons have in common is really identical to what the divine persons do not have in common.

    We can't conclude any kind of real distinction not unless you are equivocating and claiming virtual distinctions are a type of real distinction which is nonsense but even then it would be nonsense to say they are "unknown" real distinctions.

    >Similarly, we can conclude from the cosmological argument that there is a simple reality that is pure act, even though we cannot fully understand what this means, and it will remain forever beyond our comprehension in important respects.

    Well that was out of left field & it still doesn't show real distinctions of any kind much less a mysterious kind between A & B.

    >He clearly says that the divine persons are really distinct from one another on the basis of the different relations of origin. And he also clearly says that the real distinction between them cannot be based upon the divine essence, precisely because the divine essence is common.

    So this in fact undermines your argument that there are somehow mysterious real distinctions between relations and essence. Aquinas' argument has content you are not arguing merely counter asserting.

    ReplyDelete
  96. >Therefore, the principle of distinction cannot be really identical to what they have in common. If it could be, then why did Aquinas explicitly reject the divine essence as a candidate for the principle of distinction precisely because it is common?

    The principle of distinction when applied to relations & essence can only at best show a virtual distinction which of course by definition isn't real. Wow you have some serious bad reasoning skills,

    >That’s because you are refusing to look. It’s all there, Ben.

    The Emperor is naked.

    >That’s right. But he has clearly endorsed the very premises that lead to that conclusion, which means that if his premises are true, then the conclusion is true.

    None of the premises you outlined even those you just now brought in from left field come close to showing divine relations must be somehow really distinct from essence.

    >Once again, you would have to explain how some of the premises are false. You have tried to reject (1), but I hope I’ve shown you that doing so leads to logical contradictions, absurdities, and rejects a principle that Aquinas himself explicitly endorses during a discussion of the Trinity.

    You are not arguing premises you are making bold assertions. I would so much mind if you claimed some weird divine revelation told you to do it but there is no logical argument here for your novel claims.

    ReplyDelete
  97. >Sure, it does. You just plugged the wrong A and B. I

    Moving the goal posts? You told me above (October 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM) A=relations & B=essence. Now that is not true?

    >In my argument, A and B are the divine persons. I never said that A is the divine relations and B is the divine essence.

    Now you are just lying because when I asked Does A=divine relations & B=divine essence? Or does A=Father and B= Son?

    You answered October 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM the former not the latter.

    Do I even need to go further answering this insane ignorant mishigoss.

    You openly & clearly lied to me. You moved the goal posts of your argument. You have no credibility & the next time the trinity is brought up I will in addition to warning everyone you hold the weird belief you can argue the relations are really distinct from the essence I will point to this bold faced lie.

    See if shortly after that you are reduced to djindra or paps.

    >but first, you have to explain what the difference is between a real distinction, a virtual distinction, and a notional distinction.

    I only need to know that virtual distinctions & notional aren't any type of real distinctions. But if your new meme is somehow they are then we will add it to the list of nonsense you made up the next time this is brought up. Let others see you are a wacko not to mention a blatant liar.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Lastly

    >In my argument, A and B are the divine persons.

    Which is a lie.

    >I never said that A is the divine relations and B is the divine essence. (

    another lie see October 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM

    >I said that if the divine persons are really distinct (as per Aquinas), then what the divine persons have in common cannot be really identical to what the divine persons do not have in common (as per Aquinas). What the divine persons have in common is the divine essence (as per Aquinas), and what the divine persons do not have in common is the divine relations (as per Aquinas). It necessarily follows that the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence, which means that the divine relations must be really distinct in some way from the divine essence. That’s the argument.

    That is not an argument that second to last sentence is mere assertion not argument.

    Wow dguller you totally F****ed this up worst then the government has healthcare.

    You are living in la la land. You can't argue rationally and you blatantly lied to me.

    We are so done.

    I shake the dust off my feet as a testimony against you.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Lastly

    >Personally, the only way that I can make sense of it is that a virtual distinction is just a kind of real distinction.

    Even if that where true for the sake of argument(& it isn't BTW) it couldn't then be equivalent to the real distinctions between divine persons which are still classified as mysterious not virtual "real" distinctions.

    So your fallacy of equivocation, non-arguments & me catching you in a bold faced lie all =dguller has no credibility or a rational mind or any case whatsoever.



    ReplyDelete
  100. The argument is over. I promised my wife I will not return to this thread.

    You are free to lie like the devil to your hearts content in the echo chamber. I won't read it.

    But next time I will put all your cards on the table & let us see if the regulars see you as anything other then a crafty sophist who is completely ignorent of thomism.

    ReplyDelete
  101. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  102. But none of this logically shows that divine relations must somehow be really distinct from essence it only shows the relations are distinct from one to another? We can't conclude (a) threw (f) because there is no way to get from the above to the idea relations are really distinct from essence.

    Of course it does. The conclusion necessarily follows from (a) to (f). I’ve tried to formalize and simplify things above so that you will better to be able to see that the conclusion is true, based upon the premises. The fact that the conclusion contradicts a well-established Catholic doctrine that is attested to in numerous sources is precisely the point.

    Except (a) threw (f) are clearly to anyone with eyes ad hoc conclusions not rational arguments. How you can argue from Aquinas or from doctrinal principles in general that relations are somehow really distinct from essence is left hanging there an unarmed.

    They are not “ad hoc conclusions”. I have argued for all of them, not only with quotations from Aquinas and Emery, but also with rational arguments.

    (a) If A and B are really distinct, and A and B have something in common, then their real distinction cannot be explained by what A and B have in common
    (b) If A and B are really distinct, then their real distinction can only be explained by what A and B do not have in common (i.e. the principle of distinction).

    (a) and (b) are obviously true. Try to differentiate between A and B only on the basis of what they have in common. It is impossible. You must appeal to what they do not have in common, i.e. how they differ in some way, in order to establish that A and B are really distinct. That is precisely why Aquinas does not identify the principle of distinction between the divine persons with the divine essence, i.e. it is “common” between them.

    (c) The principle of distinction cannot be really identical to what A and B have in common

    This is also clearly true. If it were false, then it would follow that the principle of distinction between A and B can be really identical to the principle of commonality between A and B, which is equivalent to saying that what A and B have in common can be really identical to what A and B do not have in common, which itself is equivalent to saying that X can be really identical to not-X. Clearly, that is logically incoherent, and thus (c) must be true.

    (d) The divine persons are really distinct
    (e) The divine persons share the divine essence in common
    (f) The principle of distinction is the divine relations

    I doubt that you can dispute (d) to (f), because they are all supported by Aquinas and Emery, and you can’t find a single Catholic authority that rejects them.

    So, (a) to (f) are clearly true premises, and the conclusion logically follows from them, making the conclusion true. It is irrelevant that Aquinas himself did not draw this conclusion. The conclusion is nonetheless virtually present within the premises themselves, whether he saw it or not. Simply saying that no-one ever drew this conclusion does not refute it. Only showing that the premises are false and/or the logical structure is invalid can demonstrate that the conclusion is false. You have done neither.

    ReplyDelete
  103. You just assert A and B(divine relations & divine essence) are really distinct ad hoc but you give zero reasons.

    I’ve given lots of reasons for the conclusion. Your only response is that it is impossible. Well, it can’t be impossible if I just did it.

    We can't conclude any kind of real distinction not unless you are equivocating and claiming virtual distinctions are a type of real distinction which is nonsense but even then it would be nonsense to say they are "unknown" real distinctions.

    If virtual distinctions are not only in the mind, then they are real distinctions. That is the definition of a real distinction. If the distinction between A and B is only in the mind, then it is a notional distinction. If the distinction between A and B is not only in the mind, then it is a real distinction. There are a variety of different kinds of real distinctions, and virtual distinctions are one kind. After all, even G-L says that the distinction is “grounded in reality”, which means that it cannot be only in the mind.

    Or maybe I’m wrong. But the only way for you to show this is to define real distinction, virtual distinction, and notional distinction. I’ve noticed that you studiously have avoided doing so. I wonder why …

    So this in fact undermines your argument that there are somehow mysterious real distinctions between relations and essence. Aquinas' argument has content you are not arguing merely counter asserting.

    It doesn’t undermine my entire argument if it is a premise in my argument.

    The principle of distinction when applied to relations & essence can only at best show a virtual distinction which of course by definition isn't real. Wow you have some serious bad reasoning skills,

    According to who’s “definition”? What is the “definition” of real distinction? What is “definition” of virtual distinction. You seem to know what they are, “of course”.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Moving the goal posts? You told me above (October 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM) A=relations & B=essence. Now that is not true?

    That was in a different context. A and B are variables, which means that they vary depending on the context. At October 23, 2013 at 3:50 PM, the context was whether the following propositions were logically consistent:

    (1) A is really distinct from B in some way (= real distinction)
    (2) A is really distinct from B in no way (= notional distinction)

    And:

    (3) A is only distinct from B in the mind (= notional distinction)
    (4) A is not only distinct from B in the mind (= real distinction)

    In that context, A = relations, and B = essence.

    In this context, A and B are the divine persons.

    I only need to know that virtual distinctions & notional aren't any type of real distinctions. But if your new meme is somehow they are then we will add it to the list of nonsense you made up the next time this is brought up. Let others see you are a wacko not to mention a blatant liar.

    But you have to specify how virtual distinctions are different from real distinctions. In other words, you have to state a principle of distinction, i.e. something that virtual distinctions do not share in common with real distinctions that would serve to differentiate the two. What would the principle of distinction be, Ben?

    That is not an argument that second to last sentence is mere assertion not argument.

    It is an argument. And the sentence that you speak of – “It necessarily follows that the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence, which means that the divine relations must be really distinct in some way from the divine essence” – is the logical conclusion of the preceding sentences. I’ve elaborated the logical and formal argument above so that even you can see it.

    Even if that where true for the sake of argument(& it isn't BTW) it couldn't then be equivalent to the real distinctions between divine persons which are still classified as mysterious not virtual "real" distinctions.

    Wrong again. If it were true, then a virtual distinction would be a real distinction of some kind, and thus to say that A is virtually distinct from B just means that A is really distinct in some way from B. And that means that if the divine relations are virtually distinct from the divine essence, then the divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence in some way, which contradicts the position that the divine relations are not really distinct from the divine essence in any way.

    The argument is over.

    I agree.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Ben:

    This isn't logical argument or rebuttal this is merely naysaying. Your kidding right?

    It is a logical argument. It’s actually of the following form:

    (1) If A is really distinct from B, then it is false that X is really identical to Y
    (2) A is really distinct from B
    (3) Therefore, it is false that X is really identical to Y

    Can you see that (1) to (3) is a valid argument? If you can’t even see that, then you simply do not understand logic, even of the most elementary kind. If you can see that it is valid, then the only remaining question is whether it is sound, and the only way to know that is to see if the premises are true. The premises are:

    (4) If A is really distinct from B, then it is false that the principle of commonality between A and B is really identical to the principle of distinction between A and B
    (5) A is really distinct from B

    In this case, A and B are the divine persons, and so if you plug that in, then you get:

    (6) If the divine persons are really distinct from each other, then it is false that the principle of commonality between the divine persons is really identical to the principle of distinction between the divine persons
    (7) The divine persons are really distinct from each other

    I would argue that (6) and (7) are both true, and based upon (1) to (3), the conclusion of (6) and (7) is:

    (8) Therefore, it is false that the principle of commonality between the divine persons is really identical to the principle of distinction between the divine persons

    Here’s the next step in the argument presented formally:

    (9) If C is really identical to X & D is really identical to Y, then it is false that C is really identical to D
    (10) C is really identical to X
    (11) D is really identical to Y
    (12) Therefore, it is false that C is really identical to D

    Again, it is pretty clear that (9) to (12) is valid. The question is whether it is sound, but that depends upon what we plug into the variables. Here is what I would put:

    (13) If the divine essence is identical to the principle of commonality between the divine persons, and the divine relations are identical to the principle of distinction between the divine persons, then it is false that the divine essence are really identical to the divine relations
    (14) The divine essence is identical to the principle of commonality between the divine persons
    (15) The divine relations are identical to the principle of distinction between the divine persons
    (16) Therefore, it is false that the divine essence is really identical to the divine relations

    I’m sure that you’ll notice that the entire argument is formally valid. The premises are (6), (7), (13), (14), and (15). I contend that they are all true, and if they are all true, then the conclusion at (16) necessarily follows as true, because the argument is valid.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Ben:

    And just to simplify everything one last time.

    Here’s the formal argument:

    (1) If A is really distinct from B in some way, then it is false that C = D
    (2) A is really distinct from B in some way
    (3) Therefore, it is false that C = D (by (1), (2))
    (4) C = X
    (5) D = Y
    (6) Therefore, it is false that X = Y (by (3), (4), (5))

    Even you can see that this argument is logically valid, which means that the conclusion at (6) necessarily follows if the premises at (1), (2), (4) and (5) are true.

    In this argument, the variables mean the following:

    (a) A = divine person 1
    (b) B = divine person 2
    (c) C = principle of commonality = what the divine persons share in common
    (d) D = principle of distinction = what the divine persons do not share in common
    (e) X = the divine essence
    (f) Y = the divine relations

    If you plug them into (1) to (6), you get the following:

    (7) If the divine persons are really distinct in some way, then it is false that the principle of commonality is really identical to the principle of distinction
    (8) The divine persons are really distinct in some way
    (9) Therefore, it is false that the principle of commonality is really identical to the principle of distinction
    (10) The principle of commonality is really identical to the divine essence
    (11) The principle of distinction is really identical to the divine relations
    (12) Therefore, it is false that the divine essence is really identical to the divine relations

    That’s the argument in a nutshell. It is valid. The only question is whether the premises are actually true. I have justified them with rational arguments, and supportive quotations from Aquinas and Emery. Your only response has been (a) to outright deny that I have offered an argument at all, which is utterly bizarre, (b) to complain that no Catholic figure has ever used these premises to derive this conclusion, as if novelty necessarily meant falsehood, and (c) to proclaim that the conclusion logically contradicts another well-established Catholic doctrine, as if that refuted the argument, when that was the precise point of the argument to begin with. The point is that it is impossible for the premises to all be true without leading to a logical contradiction, and thus at least one of the premises must be false to avoid the logical contradiction. The tricky part is determining which premise is false.

    ReplyDelete
  107. dguller:

    And just to simplify everything one last time.

    Here's the formal argument:

    (1) If A is really distinct from B in some way, then it is false that C = D
    (2) A is really distinct from B in some way
    (3) Therefore, it is false that C = D (by (1), (2))
    (4) C = X
    (5) D = Y
    (6) Therefore, it is false that X = Y (by (3), (4), (5))

    Even you can see that this argument is logically valid, which means that the conclusion at (6) necessarily follows if the premises at (1), (2), (4) and (5) are true.

    In this argument, the variables mean the following:


    I will now substitute my substitutions instances for your substitutions instances:

    (a) A = sophistry
    (b) B = perspicaciousness
    (c) C = 0!
    (d) D = 1!
    (e) X = ((4^(1/2))/2)
    (f) Y = ((9^(1/3))/3)

    If you plug them into (1) to (6), you get the following:

    (7) If sophistry is really distinct from perspicaciousness in some way, then it is false that 0! = 1!.
    (8) Sophistry is really distinct from perspicaciousness in some way.
    (9) Therefore, it is false that 0! is really identical to 1!.
    (10) 0! is really identical to ((4^(1/2))/(2!)).
    (11) 1! is really identical to ((9^(1/3))/(3!))
    (12) Therefore, it is false that ((4^(1/2))/(2!)) is really identical to ((9^(1/3))/(3!)).

    The point is that it is impossible for the premises to all be true without leading to a logical contradiction, and thus at least one of the premises must be false to avoid the logical contradiction. The easy part is seeing which of your premises is false.

    - - - - -

    As comment moderation has been enabled, I will not be adding any further comments.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Oh darn, I spoke too soon. Just notice some minor errors in my prior comment, which minor errors are corrected in the version below. Dr. Feser, imposition that it is, I ask that the prior comment be deleted, and this one approved (if either will be approved, that is). Thank you, Glenn


    dguller:

    And just to simplify everything one last time.

    Here's the formal argument:

    (1) If A is really distinct from B in some way, then it is false that C = D
    (2) A is really distinct from B in some way
    (3) Therefore, it is false that C = D (by (1), (2))
    (4) C = X
    (5) D = Y
    (6) Therefore, it is false that X = Y (by (3), (4), (5))

    Even you can see that this argument is logically valid, which means that the conclusion at (6) necessarily follows if the premises at (1), (2), (4) and (5) are true.

    In this argument, the variables mean the following:


    I will now substitute my substitution instances for your substitution instances:

    (a) A = sophistry
    (b) B = perspicaciousness
    (c) C = 0!
    (d) D = 1!
    (e) X = ((4^(1/2))/(2!))
    (f) Y = ((9^(1/3))/(3!))

    If you plug them into (1) to (6), you get the following:

    (7) If sophistry is really distinct from perspicaciousness in some way, then it is false that 0! = 1!.
    (8) Sophistry is really distinct from perspicaciousness in some way.
    (9) Therefore, it is false that 0! is really identical to 1!.
    (10) 0! is really identical to ((4^(1/2))/(2!)).
    (11) 1! is really identical to ((9^(1/3))/(3!))
    (12) Therefore, it is false that ((4^(1/2))/(2!)) is really identical to ((9^(1/3))/(3!)).

    The point is that it is impossible for the premises to all be true without leading to a logical contradiction, and thus at least one of the premises must be false to avoid the logical contradiction. The easy part is seeing which of your premises is false.

    - - - - -

    PS As comment moderation has been enabled, I will not be making any further comments here.

    ReplyDelete
  109. Glenn:

    I take it you do not deny that the argument is formally valid. The only issue is whether the premises are true.

    (7) If sophistry is really distinct from perspicaciousness in some way, then it is false that 0! = 1!.

    First, what does the antecedent have to do with the consequent? At least I provided arguments that justify why (7) is true. After all, if A and B are really distinct, then they must differ in some way in reality, and this way in which they differ in reality is the principle of distinction. Furthermore, the principle of commonality cannot be really identical to the principle of distinction, because that would be logically identical to claiming that what A and B have in common is really identical to what A and B do not have in common, which is equivalent to claiming that X is really identical to not-X.

    Second, it is true that 0! = 1!. So, the consequent is false. Are you claiming that it is false that the principle of commonality between A and B cannot really identical to the principle of distinction between A and B?

    ReplyDelete
  110. Does a correction count as a comment? The "9" s/b "216". Doi.

    ReplyDelete
  111. So what have we learned here?

    dguller can "prove" a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity
    by changing the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Big Yawn!

    Also he is addicted to having the last word.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Glenn:

    Sorry, just one more thing about (7). Because it is true that 0! = 1!, it follows by modus tollens that the antecedent is false, which means that if you endorse (7) are true, then it follows that it is false that sophistry is really distinct from perspicaciousness.

    Good job.

    ReplyDelete
  113. "As Augustine says (Ep. xliii) and we find it stated in the Decretals (xxiv, qu. 3, can. Dixit Apostolus): "By no means should we accuse of heresy those who, however false and perverse their opinion may be, defend it without obstinate fervor, and seek the truth with careful anxiety, ready to mend their opinion, when they have found the truth," because, to wit, they do not make a choice in contradiction to the doctrine of the Church. Accordingly, certain doctors seem to have differed either in matters the holding of which in this or that way is of no consequence, so far as faith is concerned, or even in matters of faith, which were not as yet defined by the Church; although if anyone were obstinately to deny them after they had been defined by the authority of the universal Church, he would be deemed a heretic. This authority resides chiefly in the Sovereign Pontiff. For we read [Decret. xxiv, qu. 1, can. Quoties]: "Whenever a question of faith is in dispute, I think, that all our brethren and fellow bishops ought to refer the matter to none other than Peter, as being the source of their name and honor, against whose authority neither Jerome nor Augustine nor any of the holy doctors defended their opinion." Hence Jerome says (Exposit. Symbol [Among the supposititious works of St. Jerome]): "This, most blessed Pope, is the faith that we have been taught in the Catholic Church. If anything therein has been incorrectly or carelessly expressed, we beg that it may be set aright by you who hold the faith and see of Peter. If however this, our profession, be approved by the judgment of your apostleship, whoever may blame me, will prove that he himself is ignorant, or malicious, or even not a catholic but a heretic."

    Summa Q11 Article 2 Reply to Objection 3

    So does the Pope endorce the doctrine of divine relations being really distinct from the divine essence?

    Obviously not otherwise it would not have been condemned & since sacred doctrine is not a product of reason alone but reason and divine authority such as in revelation and church judgement of the meaning of revelation we can never argue there is some kind of real distinction between relations and essence & no kind of relation between relations and essence.

    Thus there can be no logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity unless you change the doctrine.

    What good is arguing that?

    ReplyDelete
  114. who disbelieves [even] one article of faith does not have faith, either formed or unformed.


    "The reason of this is that the species of every habit depends on the formal aspect [ratione] of the object, without which the species of the habit cannot remain. Now the formal object of faith is the First Truth, as manifested in Sacred Scripture and the teaching of the Church. Consequently whoever does not adhere, as to an infallible and Divine rule, to the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth manifested in Sacred Scripture, has not the habit of faith, but holds the [other articles] of faith by a mode other than faith. If someone holds in his mind a conclusion without knowing how that conclusion is demonstrated, it is manifest that he does not have scientific knowledge [i.e. knowledge of causes], but merely an opinion about it. So likewise, it is manifest that he who adheres to the teachings of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teachings of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves [even] one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things (but if he is not obstinate, he is not a heretic but only erring). Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will.”3

    Summa Theologica II-II Q.5 a.3 co.

    Inventing a new doctrine "the divine relations are somehow really distinct from the divine essence" which has already been condemned as tri-theism and adding it to the doctrine of the trinity makes about as much sense as a non-American Judge or a lawyer who isn't an American citizen handing down legal interpretations or rulings of the US Constitution and expecting them to have force of law.

    Isn't that a little silly?

    ReplyDelete
  115. dguller,

    Glenn:

    Sorry, just one more thing about (7). Because it is true that 0! = 1!, it follows by modus tollens that the antecedent is false, which means that if you endorse (7) are true, then it follows that it is false that sophistry is really distinct from perspicaciousness.

    Good job.


    A mirror is held up to you, and fail to see your reflection. Tsk, tsk.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Ben:

    Inventing a new doctrine "the divine relations are somehow really distinct from the divine essence" which has already been condemned as tri-theism and adding it to the doctrine of the trinity

    I’m not “inventing a new doctrine”. I’m showing that there a valid argument based upon Thomist premises that leads to a conclusion that logically contradicts a well-known Catholic dogma.

    Here’s the argument in a nutshell:

    (1) If the divine persons are really distinct in some way, then it is false that the principle of commonality is really identical to the principle of distinction

    (2) The divine persons are really distinct in some way
    (3) Therefore, it is false that the principle of commonality is really identical to the principle of distinction

    (4) The principle of commonality is really identical to the divine essence

    (5) The principle of distinction is really identical to the divine relations

    (6) Therefore, it is false that the divine essence is really identical to the divine relations
    (7) The divine essence is really identical to the divine relations
    (8) Therefore, (6) contradicts (7)

    To avoid the logical contradiction at (8), you would have to reject one of the premises of the argument as false. You cannot reject (1), because to reject (1) would be to accept that what A and B have in common is really identical to what A and B do not have in common, which is logically equivalent to affirming that X is really identical to not-X. You cannot reject (2), because it is a core doctrine of the Trinity. You cannot reject (4), because it is a core doctrine of the Trinity. You cannot reject (5), because it is a core doctrine of the Trinity. And you cannot reject (7), because it is a core doctrine of the Trinity.

    So, you have only two options: first, you can avoid the logical contradiction by rejecting at least one core doctrine of the Trinity, and second, avoid rejecting at least one core doctrine of the Trinity by accepting a logical contradiction.

    Again, this is not me simply inventing some novel doctrine out of thin air, like you are implying. The conclusion at (6) is the logical consequences of premises (1), (2), (4) and (5). I didn’t make up those premises, but rather found them explicitly asserted by Aquinas and Emery, and I have even provided rational arguments to further support them.

    It does no good to just repeat that this conclusion contradicts key Catholic doctrine. I know it does, because that is the entire point of the argument. You are basically just saying that (8) is impossible, and since (7) must be true, it must be the case that (6) must be false. I agree with you! (6) must be false in order to avoid a logical contradiction, but you cannot just say that (6) is false, and leave it at that, because (6) is the conclusion of a valid logical argument. The only way to avoid the truth of (6) is to show that premises (1), (2), (4) and/or (5) are false. That is what you must do, and that is what you are avoiding doing altogether.

    Isn’t that a little silly?

    ReplyDelete
  117. Glenn:

    A mirror is held up to you, and fail to see your reflection. Tsk, tsk.

    So, you reject the following premise:

    (1) If A and B are really distinct in some way, then it is false that the principle of commonality between A and B is really identical to the principle of distinction between A and B.

    Just understand what it means to reject (1).

    First, both Aquinas and Emery accept (1), and thus to reject it would be to reject their positions.

    Second, remember what (1) is supposed to mean.

    Say that you have A and B, and A is really distinct from B. That means that A and B have some things in common (= principle of commonality) and A and B have some things not in common (= principle of distinction). They must have a principle of commonality, because everything has something in common, at the very least, that they are some things. They must have a principle of distinction, because if they didn’t, then A and B would have everything in common, and wouldn’t be really distinct at all, but rather really identical. Unless you want to argue that A and B can have everything in common, and yet still be really distinct? Therefore, if A is really distinct from B, then there must be a principle of commonality between A and B, and a principle of distinction between A and B.

    If the principle of commonality between A and B were really identical to the principle of distinction between A and B, then that would be logically equivalent to claiming that what A and B have in common is really identical to what A and B do not have in common, which is logically equivalent to claiming that X is really identical to not-X. Therefore, it is necessarily the case that the principle of commonality between A and B cannot be really identical to the principle of distinction between A and B.

    And therefore:

    (1) If A and B are really distinct in some way, then it is false that the principle of commonality between A and B is really identical to the principle of distinction between A and B.

    To reject (1) is to embrace the following:

    (2) If A and B are really distinct in some way, then it is true that the principle of commonality between A and B is really identical to the principle of distinction between A and B.

    And (2) is the logical equivalent of the following:

    (3) If A and B are really distinct in some way, then it is true that X is really identical to not-X.

    So, it would appear that your solution to avoid the logical contradiction between (7) and (8) at October 26, 2013 at 6:44 PM is to embrace the logical contradiction of embracing that what A and B have in common is really identical to what A and B do not have in common, which is logically equivalent to endorsing that X is really identical to not-X.

    Tsk, tsk.

    ReplyDelete
  118. You simply can't prove a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity by changing the doctrine of the Trinity and by adding doctrines to it that are formally condemned.

    The doctrine teaches thus:
    "No real distinction exists between the essence and the persons, but a real distinction exists between the persons among
    themselves."

    The above was taught in an infallible manner by the Fourth Lateran Council & by the Council of Florence.

    Gilbert Porretanus was condemned by the Council of Reims for teaching that there was a real distinction between the divine relations and the divine essence.

    You can be an apologist for Porretanus-ism all you want but at the end of the day you have not proven a logical contradiction. You have proven you can make up your own doctrine.. You have proven there is a logical contradiction in any fictional doctrine that combines Trinitarianism with Porretanus-ism.

    Aquinas teaches rather clearly that the doctrines of natural theology can be known by reason alone. But he teaches in Part II of the Summa the doctrine of sacred theology can only be known by reason, divine revelation and authority.

    The authority here is the ultimate and final judgement of the Church. The Church has condemned Gilbert Porretanus' doctrine. Aquinas would never apply any of his principles to confirm it since it would contradict the judgement of the Church.

    If you just had reason and revelation as your sole means of formulating doctrine you could come up with a bunch of contradictory doctrinal propositions. Which is why when Father Arius came up with one that said the Word was of an unlike substance with the Father and Bishop Athanasius said the word was of the same substance with the Father the Council of Nicea was needed to settle the dispute.

    At the end of the day there can be no logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity only in changing it.

    PS since the real distinctions that exist person to person are absolute mysteries in nature we can't say anything about them beyond the fact they make one person really not another one & nothing else beyond that is claimed or can be claimed without the authority of the Church preserved by the Holy Spirit to confirm it.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Ben:

    You simply can't prove a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity by changing the doctrine of the Trinity and by adding doctrines to it that are formally condemned.

    The follow premises are all I need to demonstrate a logical contradiction:

    (1) If the divine persons are really distinct in some way, then the principle of commonality between the divine persons is not really identical to the principle of distinction between the divine persons


    (2) The divine persons are really distinct in some way

    (3) The principle of commonality between the divine persons is really identical to the divine essence


    (4) The principle of distinction between the divine persons is really identical to the divine relations


    (5) The divine essence is really identical to the divine relations

    Which of them changes the doctrine of the Trinity?

    "No real distinction exists between the essence and the persons, but a real distinction exists between the persons among 
themselves."

    I absolutely agree with that. In fact, those are premises (2) and (5). That means that you accept (2) and (5) as true. The question is whether you reject (1), (3) and (4). Do you reject them? If you accept them, then my argument demonstrates a logical contradiction. Therefore, you must reject them. Do you? And if you do, then why do you reject them?

    At the end of the day there can be no logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity only in changing it.

    There is a logical contradiction, if you accept (1) to (5) above. And as far as I can tell, (1) to (5) do not violate the doctrine of the Trinity at all. And the fact that you cannot specify which premise violates the Trinity and why just shows me that you accept (1) to (5) as true premises. When you have true premises and a valid argument, then you necessarily have a true conclusion. If the premises are true, and my argument is logically valid, then the conclusion necessarily is true.

    A further irony is that even saying that there cannot be a logical contradiction is a logical contradiction when the conclusion demonstrates a logical contradiction:

    (6) There is a logical contradiction
    (7) There cannot be a logical contradiction
    (8) (6) logically contradicts (7)

    So, I hope that you see that just asserting that there is no logical contradiction does not eliminate the logical contradiction, but only compounds it. The only way to eliminate the logical contradiction is to reject (1), (2), (3), (4) and/or (5).

    ReplyDelete
  120. since the real distinctions that exist person to person are absolute mysteries in nature we can't say anything about them beyond the fact they make one person really not another one & nothing else beyond that is claimed or can be claimed without the authority of the Church preserved by the Holy Spirit to confirm it.

    That is not true. You can some something else. In fact, you can say that because the divine persons are really distinct in some way, then:

    (a) They must have something in common (i.e. the principle of commonality)
    (b) They must have something not in common (i.e. the principle of distinction)
    (c) The principle of commonality cannot be identical to the principle of distinction
    (d) The principle of commonality is the divine essence
    (e) The principle of distinction is the divine relations

    Both Aquinas and Emery agree with (a) to (e). You cannot find a single Catholic source that rejects them, just like you can’t find a single Catholic source that agrees that the divine persons are physically identical. I think that you are the one who is just making things up. I also think that you simply do not understand what a sound logical argument is, and what you are supposed to do in order to refute it.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Ben:

    Honestly, you are like an atheist who says that it is impossible for Pure Act to exist, and when they are confronted with the cosmological argument, even though they cannot dispute the premises, because they are clearly true, simply refuse to accept the conclusion. “But, but … it’s impossible!” is not a refutation of the cosmological argument, and it is not a refutation of my argument, especially if it is sound. The only way for you to refute my argument is to show that at least one premise is false. And this is something that you have studiously refused to do, because you simply cannot reject any of the premises.

    Your only hope is to keep telling yourself that my argument must go wrong somewhere, because it is impossible for it to be sound. But I’m sure that you wouldn’t accept that rebuttal from an atheist rejecting the cosmological argument. In fact, I doubt that you would accept it from anyone rejecting any one of your arguments. You would conclude that your interlocutor has no legitimate objections, and simply does not want to accept the conclusion of your argument. Of course, by rejecting a sound logical argument, what they are actually rejecting is logic and reason itself.

    And that is precisely what you are doing. By rejecting a sound logical argument on the basis of faith and authority, you are placing faith and authority above logic and reason, and embracing fideism. Who knew that Catholicism endorsed fideism?

    ReplyDelete
  122. Ben:

    Do you recognize the following is a valid argument?

    (1) If A is really distinct from B in some way, then (a) there is a C between A and B, (b) there is a D between A and B, and (c) it is false that C = D
    (2) A is really distinct from B in some way
    (3) Therefore, it is false that C = D (by (1), (2))
    (4) C = X
    (5) D = Y
    (6) Therefore, it is false that X = Y (by (3), (4), (5))

    The important thing at this point is whether you can you see that (6) necessarily follows from (1), (2), (4) and (5). It doesn’t matter at this time what A, B, C, D, X and Y are supposed to be. We are just focusing upon the formal validity of the argument. Can you see that (1) to (6) is a valid argument?

    We will examine whether it is a sound argument after, but I need to know whether you can, at least, recognize a valid argument at all. If you cannot, then there is no point talking to you, because you fundamentally cannot recognize the basics of logic and reason.

    ReplyDelete
  123. So let us give a summery of the so called arguments for logical contradiction in the Trinity.

    1.. First it was claimed that the doctrine of the the Trinity was at odds with the doctrine of the divine simplicity. This was based on changing the doctrine of divine simplicity re-writing it to mean that all kinds of real distinctions across the board without exception could not be found subsisting in the divine essence. Thus logically, really distinct divine relations could not be found subsisting in the divine essence. But it was shown that the divine simplicity merely says the divine essence cannot contain any real subsisting physical or metaphysical distinctions. So that was a bust. since the divine relations are not taken to be really distinct one to another in either a physical or metaphysical way.

    2.. Second an argument by equivocation was made that refused to make clear definitional distinctions between real physical, real metaphysical and real mysterious distinctions by opposition. Even thought they have being "real" in common as distinctions they are not all unequivocally real in the same way.

    This was also shown to be a bust & that there is no reason why God cannot be both really distinct(but not separate) & mysterious divine relations in opposition one to another and a divine essence that contains no real physical and metaphysical distinctions, at the same time and in the same sense. The Principle of Contradiction is not violated since here we have no case of claiming "A" & "not A" at the same time and in the same sense.

    3.. Desperate to save face a novel argument by special pleading was put forth that the condemned heterodox doctrine formulation of Gilbert Porretanus that the divine relations where somehow really distinct from the divine essence should be added to the contradictory orthodox formulation of Aquinas that said the relations where not really distinct from the essence. For some unstated reason we are suppose to somehow conclude both of these are true & therefore the doctrine of the Trinity is in logical contradiction for asserting & denying real distinction between relations and essence.? This is just silly and show some people have way too much time on their hands.

    4.. A claim was made that the virtual distinction scholastics say exists between the divine relations and divine essence is a "type of real distinction". Well even if we ignore the fact scholastic terminology doesn't call virtual distinctions any type of real distinction but sees it as a non-real distinction. There is no reason to assume without evidence or argument that the "type of real distinction" represented by the virtual distinction is in anyway a type of real physical or metaphysical distinction. Nor can we conclude it is anything like the mysterious real distinctions between relations. But it is all moot considering virtual distinctions are not real ones thought they might oorespond to something real.

    5.. The argument thus far as to the alleged logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity is effectively what Prof Feser would call "bullshit". in the Post as of this writing that is at the top of his blog.

    6.. Ironically Scotus believed there was a formal distinction between relations and essence & some of his followers like Lee Faber believe this was a type of real distinction(a middle ground between notional & real) but not a fully real distinction such as exists between the divine persons. Or to put is simply there was no formal distinction between divine persons in Scotus' theology. But equivocating between Aquinas and Scotus wouldn't do any justice to either of their views.

    7.. you really can't "argue" against a doctrine by changing the the doctrine. You can only bullshit & make others question your basic honesty or sanity.

    ReplyDelete
  124. BTW an argument that tries to claim because mysterious real relations are subsisting in the divine essence that means the relations must therefore have some mysterious real distinction ( or some type of real distinction) from the essence is a logical absurdity.


    http://www.iep.utm.edu/aq-meta/#H2

    Essence is the definable nature of the thing that exists. How can the divine relations be really distinct even mysteriously from that which the doctrine of the Trinity defines them to be? Which is God! The relations or persons are defined to be in essence, God. So how can the relations which are distinct from one to another be automatically concluded to be divided instances of God? Are they mysteriously distinct from being God in nature? That is what it would literally mean to say divine relations might be mysteriously distinct from the divine essence. The only thing the mysterious real distinction between relations do is mandate we say one relation is not another opposing relation as a relation. But we still say both are God in essence without distinction. We don't say somehow in even in some mysterious fashion they are distinct Gods which as the Church judged in the case of Gilbert Porretanus to mean some form of Tri-Theism.

    But at the end of the day you can only argue with the doctrine of the Trinity all Trinitarians here believe. Not with one you make up out of thin air by equivocation & special pleading.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Ben:

    First, I have already said that my earlier arguments were unsound, because there is a distinction between real distinction and composition. Personally, I think that such a distinction is dubious, because I don’t see why real distinction does not necessarily imply composition, but I’m willing to drop my earlier argument. My new argument has nothing to do with my earlier argument, and thus any faults in the earlier argument have nothing to do with my new argument.

    Second, you cannot appeal to the distinction between real distinction and virtual distinction unless you can define them. Until you define them, particularly by identifying what they have in common to distinguish them from notional distinctions, and by identifying what they do not have in common to distinguish them from each other, you are using meaningless terms. Can you define them? I’ve already asked you to do so, and you have avoided doing it, probably because you can’t define them.

    Third, assuming that there is a distinction between real distinction and virtual distinction, then my argument would certainly fail. Here is how:

    (1) If the divine persons are really distinct in some way, then the principle of commonality between the divine persons is not really identical to the principle of distinction between the divine persons



    (2) The divine persons are really distinct in some way


    (3) The principle of commonality between the divine persons is really identical to the divine essence



    (4) The principle of distinction between the divine persons is really identical to the divine relations



    (5) The divine essence is virtually distinct from to the divine relations

    What follows from these premises is:

    (6) The divine essence is not really identical to the divine relations

    Now, to say that X is not really identical to Y could mean either (a) X is really distinct from Y, or (b) X is virtually distinct from Y. Therefore, we have the following:

    (7) Either (a) the divine essence is really distinct from the divine relations, or (b) the divine essence is virtually distinct from the divine relations

    Certainly, (5) does not logically contradict (7).

    So, it all hinges upon whether you can give an account of the distinction between real distinction and virtual distinction. As I’ve said, I think that virtual distinction is just a kind of real distinction. Even G-L says that the virtual distinction is “a distinction of reason with a foundation in reality”, and he identifies a distinction of reason as a distinction that “does not antecede the consideration of our minds”, while a real distinction does antecede the consideration of our minds. Putting it all together, we have the following options:

    (A) X is really distinct from Y iff (a) the distinction between X and Y has “a foundation in reality”, and (b) the distinction between X and Y antecedes consideration of our minds
    (B) X is virtually distinct from Y iff (a) the distinction between X and Y has “a foundation in reality”, and (b) the distinction between X and Y does not antecede consideration of our minds
    (C) X is notionally distinct from Y iff (a) the distinction between X and Y does not have “a foundation in reality”, and (b) the distinction between X and Y does not antecede consideration of our minds

    ReplyDelete
  126. But this makes absolutely no sense.

    First, if it has “a foundation in reality”, then it must exist independently of our consideration, and thus must exist prior to our consideration. Otherwise, it would be possible for something to exist independently of our thoughts, and yet also only exist after our mental consideration, which is contradictory. Either the distinction between X and Y is dependent upon our minds (i.e. a notional distinction) or the distinction between X and Y is independent of our minds (i.e. a real distinction).

    Second, this account also makes the concept of notional distinction problematic. After all, the distinction between X and Y has a “foundation in reality”, because X and Y are both about some common underlying referent. So, you would have to explain why that doesn’t count as a “foundation in reality”.

    Third, if you want to say that the divine attributes are virtually distinct from one another, then they must have some distinguishing features that differentiate them from one another. Take divine justice and divine mercy. Divine justice punishes, whereas divine mercy forgives. It is essential to divine justice that it punishes, but not forgives, and it is essential to divine mercy that it forgives, but not punishes. Does that mean that divine justice has a different essence from divine mercy? So, now there are a bunch of virtually distinct essences in God in addition to the divine essence?

    Fourth, if the divine mercy is virtually distinct from the divine justice, then it would follow that that very distinction did not exist until human beings considered it, which means that prior to the creation of human beings with intellects, there was no distinction between the divine mercy and the divine justice, which is absurd.

    Fifth, since you brought up Duns Scotus, you should note that Scotists actually accepted the idea that the formal distinction was a kind of real distinction. Also, Scotus and his followers distinguished a real distinction from a formal distinction only insofar as the former is possibly separable in reality whereas the latter is inseparable in reality, which is basically my original definition of real distinction versus virtual distinction. I actually cannot make any sense of G-L’s discussion, because it is highly imprecise.

    So, you have described a potent objection to my argument, but it hinges upon whether a virtual distinction cannot be a kind of real distinction.

    Good luck!

    ReplyDelete
  127. Claiming the divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence is the same as saying the Three Persons are really distinct from being the One God.

    How is that another way of saying Three distinct Persons in One God?


    It isn't.

    You can't find a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity by changing the doctrine to "Not the Trinity".

    Those are the breaks.

    People who claim otherwise are just mentally unstable weirdos who need the last word.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Is it "Three really distinct divine persons in One God"?

    or

    "Three really distinct divine persons really distinct from One God?

    Because that is what you get when you take a condemned heresy & try to add it to the doctrine of the Trinity.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Ben:

    Claiming the divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence is the same as saying the Three Persons are really distinct from being the One God.

    Yup.

    How is that another way of saying Three distinct Persons in One God?

    I don’t know. That isn’t my claim at all. My claim is that there is a logical contradiction between:

    (1) The divine relations are really distinct from the divine essence
    (2) The divine relations is notionally distinct from the divine essence

    You actually came up with a good objection by saying that there is a third possibility:

    (3) The divine essence is virtually distinct from the divine essence

    If you are correct, then my argument fails. However, to prove that you are correct, then you have to define “really distinct”, “virtually distinct”, and “notionally distinct”. Otherwise, you are using meaningless terms, and meaningless terms cannot refute an argument. Only meaningful terms can.

    So, if you can come up with definitions of these distinctions, then you’ve refuted me.

    For me, there is only real distinction and virtual distinction, and virtual distinction just collapses into notional distinction. That is why G-L never talks about notional or conceptual distinctions at all. He only talks about real distinction and virtual distinction. And that is because every distinction has a “foundation in reality”, to use G-L’s terms, and the only real difference between distinctions is whether the distinction exists prior to consideration of the human mind or posterior to consideration by the human mind.

    If the distinction occurs prior to consideration by the human mind, then it is a real distinction, and if the distinction occurs posterior to consideration by the human mind, then it is a virtual (or notional) distinction. The important point is that the two kinds of distinctions are mutually exclusive, i.e. if A is really distinct from B, then A is not virtually distinct from B, and vice versa.

    And if that is correct, then my argument works after all. So, it all hinges upon your defense of a tripartite set of distinctions over my bipartite set of distinctions.

    Good luck!

    ReplyDelete
  130. According to the Catholic Encylopedia if I may sum up what I have read.

    The Divine attributes are distinguished from the Divine nature and from each other by a virtual distinction, i.e. by a distinctio rationis cum fundamento a parte rei. The divine relations are also distinguished from the Divine Nature by a virtual distinction and from the divine attributes in the same manner but toward each other, that is relation to relation they are distinguished by a real distinction of opposition. Which is a mystery.

    In attempting to explain the mystery of the Trinity — in as far as man can conceive it — the relations must be considered perfectiones simpliciter simplices, i.e. excluding all imperfection. The Holy Ghost would not be distinct from the Son if He did not proceed from the Son as well as from the Father.

    To claim there is any type of real distinction between relations and essence is to say "Three distinct persons that are distinct from being one God".

    The doctrine of the Trinity is three distinct persons subsisting in one God. No logical contradiction can be found unless you change the doctrine. But if you change it then you are simply not arguing about the Trinity.

    BTW I don’t know who else is keeping this thread alive? I haven’t read any of their posts but the truth must be spoken.

    I just post blindly. If I happen to have given anyone else the impression I am addressing them well that is just too funny.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Ben:

    What is the difference between a real distinction, a virtual distinction, and a notional distinction?

    It seems like you honestly have no idea! And if you have no idea what you are talking about, then why are you talking about it?

    ReplyDelete
  132. The doctrine of the Trinity in it's simple doctrinal form is summed up in the words "Three Persons in One God."

    To claim there is a real distinction of any kind between the Persons/relations and Essence is to simply say "Three Persons who are Three Gods" or "Three Persons who are not One God".

    Even if it where classified as a "mysterious distinction" you would merely be saying "Three Persons who are not One God in some mysterious way".

    A real distinction of whatever type be it physical, metaphysical or mysterious allows you to say X is really not Y in some sense.

    A divine person is not a physical material division in the divine essence where they receive part of the Godhead such as a third of it.

    A divine person/relation is not some non-material potency made actual in the divine essence.

    A divine person is what the essence is which is God.

    But the real distinction which is neither physical nor metaphysical but mysterious is between the persons only not the persons and essence.

    One divine person is simply not another divine person but since they do not differ in anyway in essence all persons are God.

    The lack of contradiction here is obvious but if a person insists on changing the doctrine's content they are not arguing against the Trinity.

    There is also no rational argument that can show any type of real distinction between the persons and God.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Aquinas argued that the divine relations where not really distinct from the divine essence & this is the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church according to the Lateran Council.

    It's really bizarre to ad hoc claim that his principles somehow lead us to conclude the divine relations are really distinct from the essence which is a condemned heresy Aquinas never defended.

    Then argue this means Aquinas really taught & the doctrine of the Trinity by extension really teaches that the divine persons where both really distinct and not really distinct from the divine essence at the same time and in the same way.

    Then claim this means there is a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity.

    This goes to show you honest discussion is not possible with profoundly silly persons.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Ben:

    What is the difference between a real distinction, a virtual distinction, and a notional distinction?

    It seems like you honestly have no idea! And if you have no idea what you are talking about, then why are you talking about it?

    ReplyDelete
  135. Mystical Theology -is the science which treats of acts and experiences or states of the soul which cannot be produced by human effort or industry even with the ordinary aid of Divine grace. It comprises among its subjects all extraordinary forms of prayer, the higher forms of contemplation in all their varieties or gradations, private revelations, visions, and the union growing out of these between God and the soul, known as the mystical union. As the science of all that is extraordinary in the relations between the Divinity and the human spirit, mystical theology is the complement of ascetical, which treats of Christian perfection and of its acquisition by the practice of virtue, particularly by the observance of the counsels.

    NATURAL THEOLOGY is the science of God, so far as God can be known by the light of our reason alone.


    Dogmatic theology may be defined as the scientific exposition of the entire theoretical doctrine concerning God Himself and his external activity, based on the dogmas of the Church. Dogmatic theology emphasizes the importance of ropositional truth over experiential, sensory perceptions.


    The existence of theological mysteries is a doctrine of Catholic faith defined by the Vatican Council, which declares: "If any one say that in Divine Revelation there are contained no mysteries properly so called (vera et proprie dicta mysteria), but that through reason rightly developed (per rationem rite excultam) all the dogmas of faith can be understood and demonstrated from natural principles: let him be anathema" (Sess. III, Canons, 4. De fide et Ratione, 1).


    "who disbelieves [even] one article of faith does not have faith, either formed or unformed."-St Thomas Aquinas

    At the end of the day if a formal heretic or mere erroneous person like John Philoponus or Gilbert Porretanus argue the divine relations are somehow really distinct from the divine essence vs Aquinas who taught the divine relations where not really distinct from the divine essence we need the authority of the Church to judge between them.

    It has protected by the Holy Spirit rendered it judgement.

    So reading Philoponus' or Porretanus' errors into
    Aquinas makes about as much sense as reading Arius or Maximilan into Athanasius.

    You are a silly person if you try.

    The doctrine of the Trinity contains no logical contradition & you cannot make one by merely changing it.

    ReplyDelete
  136. The doctrine of the Trinity in both it's simple form and more complex formulations at no time claims God is X and Not X at the same time in the same sense. Thus it cannot ever be a logical contradiction. Thought it cannot be intelligibly conceived or imagined.


    God is Mysterious opposing really distinct relations subsisting in a divine essence that contains no real physical or metaphysical distinctions at the same time and in the same sense.

    God is not any type of mysterious real distinction between those very relations and the essence otherwise they could not be said to subsist in them.

    The divine relations cannot be identical to the divine essence and really distinct from the divine essence & neither the Church nor Aquinas has ever argued differently.

    It is impossible to claim a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity unless one shamelessly changes the doctrine.


    ReplyDelete
  137. BTW in case anyone is curious(not that I am reading anyone else's post other then my own) my name is not Ben.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Anonymous:

    The doctrine of the Trinity contains no logical contradition & you cannot make one by merely changing it.

    I did not change it at all. These are the premises of my argument, again:

    (1) If the divine persons are really distinct in some way, then the principle of commonality between the divine persons is not really identical to the principle of distinction between the divine persons
    (2) The divine persons are really distinct in some way
    (3) The principle of commonality between the divine persons is really identical to the divine essence
    (4) The principle of distinction between the divine persons is really identical to the divine relations
    (5) The divine essence is really identical to the divine relations

    If you are correct, then one of the above premises must be false, because it is a distortion of Catholic teaching. Which one?

    The doctrine of the Trinity in both it's simple form and more complex formulations at no time claims God is X and Not X at the same time in the same sense. Thus it cannot ever be a logical contradiction. Thought it cannot be intelligibly conceived or imagined.

    It does. It claims the following:

    (a) The divine essence is really identical to the divine relations

    I believe that I have an argument based upon premises (1) to (4) above that concludes:

    (b) The divine essence is not really identical to the divine relations

    You have contested neither the formal validity of the argument nor the truth of the premises, and thus I take it that the argument is sound, which means that (b) is true. If (b) is true, then (a) must be false, because it is impossible for (a) and (b) to simultaneously be true on pain of a logical contradiction.

    Look at it this way:

    (c) X is really identical to Y
    (d) X is not really identical to Y

    You can clearly see that (c) and (d) cannot both be true, and so you should also see that (a) and (b) cannot both be true. So, if you accept the truth of (1) to (5), then you have a logical contradiction.

    God is Mysterious opposing really distinct relations subsisting in a divine essence that contains no real physical or metaphysical distinctions at the same time and in the same sense.

    This is irrelevant, as I’ve mentioned numerous times. Premise (1) is true for all kinds of real distinction, whether that real distinction is physical, metaphysical or mysterious. The fact that Aquinas himself endorses (1) at ST 1.40.2 shows that it clearly applies to mysterious real distinction, and thus you cannot reject (1) as only applying to physical or metaphysical real distinction. It applies to all kinds of real distinction.

    ReplyDelete
  139. God is not any type of mysterious real distinction between those very relations and the essence otherwise they could not be said to subsist in them.

    And yet, if you accept the truth of (1) to (4), then that is precisely the logical conclusion! It is perfectly okay to reject the conclusion as false, but if the argument is logically valid – and, it is – then you must identify which premises are false. You have steadfastly refused to do so, which I take to mean that you cannot reject any of them as false. So, you accept the premises as true, accept the argument is logically valid, and yet reject the truth of the conclusion. That is basically equivalent to rejecting logic itself, because you have undermined all sound arguments! That’s quite a price to pay to preserve this doctrine!

    The divine relations cannot be identical to the divine essence and really distinct from the divine essence & neither the Church nor Aquinas has ever argued differently.

    I agree that neither the Church nor Aquinas has offered the argument that I’m making. But that is irrelevant. The argument stands and falls on whether the premises are true and the argument is formally valid. It does not matter who makes it.

    It is impossible to claim a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity unless one shamelessly changes the doctrine.

    The onus is upon you to show what I have changed, which basically means showing which premises are false. After over a week of asking you to identify which premises you reject as false, you still refuse to do so. I wonder why …

    And I’m still waiting for an explanation that defines a real distinction, a virtual distinction, and a notional distinction. You still haven’t offered one. I wonder why …

    ReplyDelete
  140. 1.. First it was claimed that the doctrine of the the Trinity was at odds with the doctrine of the divine simplicity. This was based on changing the doctrine of divine simplicity re-writing it to mean that all kinds of real distinctions across the board without exception could not be found subsisting in the divine essence. Thus logically, really distinct divine relations could not be found subsisting in the divine essence. But it was shown that the divine simplicity merely says the divine essence cannot contain any real subsisting physical or metaphysical distinctions. So that was a bust. since the divine relations are not taken to be really distinct one to another in either a physical or metaphysical way.

    2.. Second an argument by equivocation was made that refused to make clear definitional distinctions between real physical, real metaphysical and real mysterious distinctions by opposition. Even thought they have being "real" in common as distinctions they are not all unequivocally real in the same way.

    This was also shown to be a bust & that there is no reason why God cannot be both really distinct(but not separate) & mysterious divine relations in opposition one to another and a divine essence that contains no real physical and metaphysical distinctions, at the same time and in the same sense. The Principle of Contradiction is not violated since here we have no case of claiming "A" & "not A" at the same time and in the same sense.

    3.. Desperate to save face a novel argument by special pleading was put forth that the condemned heterodox doctrine formulation of Gilbert Porretanus that the divine relations where somehow really distinct from the divine essence should be added to the contradictory orthodox formulation of Aquinas that said the relations where not really distinct from the essence. For some unstated reason we are suppose to somehow conclude both of these are true & therefore the doctrine of the Trinity is in logical contradiction for asserting & denying real distinction between relations and essence.? This is just silly and show some people have way too much time on their hands.

    4.. A claim was made that the virtual distinction scholastics say exists between the divine relations and divine essence is a "type of real distinction". Well even if we ignore the fact scholastic terminology doesn't call virtual distinctions any type of real distinction but sees it as a non-real distinction. There is no reason to assume without evidence or argument that the "type of real distinction" represented by the virtual distinction is in anyway a type of real physical or metaphysical distinction. Nor can we conclude it is anything like the mysterious real distinctions between relations. But it is all moot considering virtual distinctions are not real ones thought they might oorespond to something real.

    5.. The argument thus far as to the alleged logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity is effectively what Prof Feser would call "bullshit".

    6.. Ironically Scotus believed there was a formal distinction between relations and essence & some of his followers like Lee Faber believe this was a type of real distinction(a middle ground between notional & real) but not a fully real distinction such as exists between the divine persons. Or to put is simply there was no formal distinction between divine persons in Scotus' theology. But equivocating between Aquinas and Scotus wouldn't do any justice to either of their views.

    7.. you really can't "argue" against a doctrine by changing the the doctrine. You can only bullshit & make others question your basic honesty or sanity.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Blind anonymous posts are fun. I don't & still haven't bothered to read any other posts on this thread. I can only image how much work others might have put into those posts only to have them talking to the wind.

    I mean get a life. BTW to anyone else who is curious. My name is not Ben and that is no lie.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Anonymous:

    I suppose that sticking your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes is one way to deal with an argument, but I don't think it's very epistemically responsible. But, if a little intellectual dishonesty helps to maintain your belief system, then so be it. And if you're really good at lying to yourself, then you may even convince yourself that you've refuted the argument by avoiding it altogether as beneath you!

    whatever works to help you sleep at night. :)

    ReplyDelete
  143. You simply can't prove a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity by changing the doctrine of the Trinity and by adding doctrines to it that are formally condemned.

    Nor can you argue that Aquinas & his principles somehow must mandate it.


    The doctrine teaches thus:
    "No real distinction exists between the essence and the persons, but a real distinction exists between the persons among
    themselves."

    The above was taught in an infallible manner by the Fourth Lateran Council & by the Council of Florence.

    Gilbert Porretanus was condemned by the Council of Reims for teaching that there was a real distinction between the divine relations and the divine essence & Gilbert changed his teachings and submitted to the Church.

    You can be an apologist for Porretanus-ism all you want but at the end of the day you have not proven a logical contradiction. You have proven you can make up your own doctrine.. You have proven there is a logical contradiction in any fictional doctrine that combines Trinitarianism with Porretanus-ism.

    Aquinas teaches rather clearly that the doctrines of natural theology can be known by reason alone. But he teaches in Part II of the Summa the doctrine of sacred theology can only be known by reason, divine revelation and authority.

    The authority here is the ultimate and final judgement of the Church. The Church has condemned Gilbert Porretanus' doctrine. Aquinas would never apply any of his principles to confirm it since it would contradict the judgement of the Church.

    If you just had reason and revelation as your sole means of formulating doctrine you could come up with a bunch of contradictory doctrinal propositions. Which is why when Father Arius came up with one that said the Word was of an unlike substance with the Father and Bishop Athanasius said the word was of the same substance with the Father the Council of Nicea was needed to settle the dispute.

    At the end of the day there can be no logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity only in changing it.

    PS since the real distinctions that exist person to person are absolute mysteries in nature we can't say anything about them beyond the fact they make one person really distinct from another one & nothing else beyond that is claimed or can be claimed without the authority of the Church preserved by the Holy Spirit to confirm it.

    ReplyDelete
  144. To have a contradiction you need to claim something is both X and Not X at the same time and in the same way.

    There is no reason why God can't be One Essence without physical or metaphysical distinction subsisting in Three mysteriously distinct but not separate Persons.

    There is simple no way the above is a claim of X & Not X at the same time and in the same way. After all saying something is Three mysteriously distinct but not separate Persons in no way negates also being One Essence without physical or metaphysical distinctions.

    The divine relations are not really distinct from the divine essence but they are distinct mysteriously in opposition one to another.

    Which of course we all know is not any type of physical or metaphysical distinction between relations or in the essence.

    You can't find contradiction making up your own doctrine of the Trinity.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous:

    You simply can't prove a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity by changing the doctrine of the Trinity and by adding doctrines to it that are formally condemned.

    Here’s a simple version of the argument:

    (1) What the divine persons have in common cannot be really identical to what the divine persons do not have in common
    (2) The divine persons have the divine essence in common
    (3) The divine persons do not have the divine relations in common
    (4) Therefore, the divine essence cannot be really identical to the divine relations (by (1), (2), (3))
    (5) The divine essence is really identical to the divine relations
    (6) (4) contradicts (5)

    This argument is formally valid, and the only remaining question is whether the premises are true. You claim that I am “changing the doctrine of the Trinity … by adding doctrines to it that are formally condemned”. Well, the onus is upon you to show which premises in my argument change the doctrine of the Trinity. But after weeks of asking you this question, you have yet to provide an answer. It should be easy for you. Just say, “I reject premise (1) as false, because …”. Again, the fact that you have avoiding doing so for weeks just shows me that you cannot reject any premises as false, and that means that you endorse a situation in which the premises are true, the form of the argument is valid, and yet the conclusion is false, which completely undermines logic itself.

    You came up with one good objection by saying that there are actually three kinds of distinctions: real, virtual and notional. If you can defend that objection, then you will have undermined my argument, because my argument presupposes only two kinds of distinctions: real and notional, which are the only kinds that Aquinas talked about. To me, a real distinction is one that does not only occur in the mind, and a notional distinction is one that does only occur in the mind. They are mutually exclusive, and thus if the distinction between A and B is not real, then it must be notional, and vice versa.

    All you have to do is explain what you mean by a real distinction, a virtual distinction, and a notional distinction. But after weeks of asking you this question, you have not answered, which just shows that you do not know that those distinctions are, and are just using words without meaning in the hopes to avoiding the conclusion of a logical argument. Certainly, you can prove me wrong by just explaining the three distinctions, but that would require an honest engagement with the issue, rather than a relentless avoidance of dealing with the argument itself other than declaring that it is necessarily false … somehow.

    The ball’s in your court. You can keep responding with a string of non sequiters and red herrings, or you an directly deal with the argument itself. I’ll give you one hint as to which response is the intellectually honest one. It's not the former.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous,

    I appreciate both your comments and their lucidness.

    Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  147. My apologies for the distracting reference; s/b, "I appreciate the comments you have made, and their lucidness.

    ReplyDelete
  148. G=God.

    E=lack of real physical & metaphysical distinctions.

    T=mysterious real distinction between opposing but not separate persons/relations.

    Underlying warrant: Mysterious real Distinctions are not any type of real physical or metaphysical ones. Divine Persons are not potencies in God made actual thus they are not real metaphysical distinctions. They are not parts or real divisions of a physical substance as if each person possess a third of the divine essence instead of all of it. What they are as mysterious real distinctions as real relations& an absolute mystery.

    Thus how can G=E=T be a logical contradiction? They simply can't be according to the rules of logic.

    Since at no point does G become Not G at the same time in the same sense.

    People who claim they can find logical contradictions in the doctrine of the Trinity by changing the doctrine are just mentally unstable liars.

    ReplyDelete
  149. The Trinity in it's simple formulation is Three Divine Persons subsisting in One God.

    The Persons are Divine because they share the same identical Divine Nature. In terms of nature there is no real distinction between them. They are all equally the One God they all share the same divine attributes. They are really distinct however(but not seperate) because they are Persons or opposing relations one to another and this is the great incomprehensible mystery. But but since God contains no physical or metaphysical distinctions these mysteriously distinct but not seperate Persons/relations cannot be divisions in God nor potencies made actual in God.

    At best we can come up with analogies of three human persons who might share the same soul or A disembodied personal mind that generates a perfect thought about itself (thus making the thought a person) and loves the thought/person perfectly in a self-giving that is also a person etc. But they are analogies not literal.

    But at the end of the day would don't really know what it is nor can we concieve of One God being three persons. It cannot be concieved of intelligibly but no logical contradiction is present.

    But since we don't say One God is Three Gods or Three Persons in One Other Person(which is what happens if we claim the persons are really distinct from essence) we can't have a logical contradiction. Nor can we have a logical contradiction by redefining the doctrine to mean the former & the later.

    Any argument that attempts to do so is not honest and the person making it is either dishonest or ignorant.

    The Trinity simply correctly understood contains no logical contradiction. To claim otherwise is simply wishing really really hard & not thinking clearly.

    ReplyDelete
  150. Anonymous:

    Sorry, it was hard to hear you with your head in the sand.

    I missed the part where you point out what premises in my argument you reject as false, and where you explain what the difference is between a real distinction, a virtual distinction, and a notional distinction.

    Until you do, you are just avoiding the issue altogether, making points about an argument that I'm not even making. I am not arguing that "G=E=T be a logical contradiction", and so any points you make against that argument are irrelevant.

    We can keep going for another few weeks with you just avoiding dealing with the argument staring you in the face, but I'd much rather you just tell me which premise in my argument -- and not some straw man argument in your imagination -- you reject as false. It should be very easy. I've laid them out explicitly for you to look at:

    (1) What the divine persons have in common cannot be really identical to what the divine persons do not have in common
    (2) The divine persons have the divine essence in common
    (3) The divine persons do not have the divine relations in common
    (4) Therefore, the divine essence cannot be really identical to the divine relations (by (1), (2), (3))
    (5) The divine essence is really identical to the divine relations
    (6) (4) contradicts (5)

    ReplyDelete
  151. Blind anonymous posts are fun. I don't & still haven't bothered to read any other posts on this thread. I can only image how much work others might have put into those posts(assuming they are answering me) only to have them talking to the wind.

    I mean get a life.

    ReplyDelete
  152. So let us give a summery of the so called arguments for logical contradiction in the Trinity.

    1.. First it was claimed that the doctrine of the the Trinity was at odds with the doctrine of the divine simplicity. This was based on changing the doctrine of divine simplicity re-writing it to mean that all kinds of real distinctions across the board without exception could not be found subsisting in the divine essence. Thus logically, really distinct divine relations could not be found subsisting in the divine essence. But it was shown that the divine simplicity merely says the divine essence cannot contain any real subsisting physical or metaphysical distinctions. So that was a bust. since the divine relations are not taken to be really distinct one to another in either a physical or metaphysical way.

    2.. Second an argument by equivocation was made that refused to make clear definitional distinctions between real physical, real metaphysical and real mysterious distinctions by opposition. Even thought they have being "real" in common as distinctions they are not all unequivocally real in the same way.

    This was also shown to be a bust & that there is no reason why God cannot be both really distinct(but not separate) & mysterious divine relations in opposition one to another and a divine essence that contains no real physical and metaphysical distinctions, at the same time and in the same sense. The Principle of Contradiction is not violated since here we have no case of claiming "A" & "not A" at the same time and in the same sense.

    3.. Desperate to save face a novel argument by special pleading was put forth that the condemned heterodox doctrine formulation of Gilbert Porretanus that the divine relations where somehow really distinct from the divine essence should be added to the contradictory orthodox formulation of Aquinas that said the relations where not really distinct from the essence. For some unstated reason we are suppose to somehow conclude both of these are true & therefore the doctrine of the Trinity is in logical contradiction for asserting & denying real distinction between relations and essence.? This is just silly and show some people have way too much time on their hands.

    4.. A claim was made that the virtual distinction scholastics say exists between the divine relations and divine essence is a "type of real distinction". Well even if we ignore the fact scholastic terminology doesn't call virtual distinctions any type of real distinction but sees it as a non-real distinction. There is no reason to assume without evidence or argument that the "type of real distinction" represented by the virtual distinction is in anyway a type of real physical or metaphysical distinction. Nor can we conclude it is anything like the mysterious real distinctions between relations. But it is all moot considering virtual distinctions are not real ones thought they might oorespond to something real.

    5.. The argument thus far as to the alleged logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity is effectively what Prof Feser would call "bullshit"

    6.. Ironically Scotus believed there was a formal distinction between relations and essence & some of his followers like Lee Faber believe this was a type of real distinction(a middle ground between notional & real) but not a fully real distinction such as exists between the divine persons. Or to put is simply there was no formal distinction between divine persons in Scotus' theology. But equivocating between Aquinas and Scotus wouldn't do any justice to either of their views.

    7.. you really can't "argue" against a doctrine by changing the the doctrine. You can only bullshit & make others question your basic honesty or sanity.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Legrange says that anything subsisting in the divine nature is identical to the divine nature. Since the divine relations/persons subsist in the essence they must be identical to the divine essence. There is no real distinction between them.

    Thus there is no way any principle of Aquinas can be used to lead us to conclude divine relations must be really distinct in some way from the divine essence. You can't ad hoc redefine a virtual distinction as a type of real distinction. That is like me saying I can prove 1+1=3 by redefining the symbol "3" to actually mean two.

    The divine relations/persons are really distinct in a mysterious way one to another as opposing relations/persons. But this real distinction is not any type of real physical or metaphysical one. Because of it is mysterious and unknowable we cannot infer the general properties of physical & metaphysical ones to it. We can say the Father is not the same Person as the Son but we must say both are God without distinction.

    We can say Father. Son and Holy Spirit are equally the One God since they all fully possess the One Divine Nature.

    But we cannot say Father, Son and Holy Spirit are really distinct in any way from the divine essence otherwise we are saying they are really distinct from being God.

    How is that the Trinity?

    It isn't. You can't find contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity by making up your own doctrine.

    ReplyDelete
  154. We can make no positive affirmation of the Trinity we can only define it negatively.

    We cannot positively concieve or imagine what it must be to be both mysterious distinct relations and an absolute essence without physical or metaphysical distinction at the same time and in the same sense.

    All efforts to do so are futile & heretical. They are also fobidden considering the mystery component of the doctrine.

    But we are left with the same conclusion. No logical contradiction is involved.

    But those who wish to change the doctrine to suit their empty cheap polemics are still stuck in the same boat.

    You can't find contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity by changing the doctrine of the Trinity.

    ReplyDelete
  155. 1. A=Mysterious distinct relations.
    2. A1=Mysterious distinctions
    3. P1=real Physical distinctions
    4. M1=real metaphysical distinctions
    5. E= Essence
    6. E does not = either P1 or M1
    7. A1 does not equal P1 or M1 either.
    8. A does not equal P1 or M1
    9. Given 1 thru 8 there is no logical contradiction in claiming A=E.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Anonymous:

    Thus there is no way any principle of Aquinas can be used to lead us to conclude divine relations must be really distinct in some way from the divine essence. You can't ad hoc redefine a virtual distinction as a type of real distinction. That is like me saying I can prove 1+1=3 by redefining the symbol "3" to actually mean two.

    Sure there is! The principle in question is that what A and B have in common cannot be really identical to what A and B do not have in common. If you accept this principle, then it is impossible for the divine essence to be really identical to the divine relations, which logically contradicts the position that the divine essence is really identical to the divine relations. If you reject this principle, then you embrace the logical contradiction that what A and B have in common is really identical to what A and B do not have in common, which is the logical equivalent of accepted that X is really identical to not-X. Either way, you end up with a logical contradiction.

    And I love how you keep talking about real distinctions and virtual distinctions without ever bothering to define what you mean by these terms. Either you know what they are, or you do not know what they are. If you know what they are, then it shouldn’t be too hard to just explain what they are. If you do not know what they are, then why are you appealing to them to save the Trinity?

    The rest of your comments have absolutely nothing to do with my argument, but only with a straw man that only exists in your imagination, and thus do not require any comment from myself.

    All I can say is that it must be pretty comfortable keeping your head in the sand! :)

    We can make no positive affirmation of the Trinity we can only define it negatively.

    Then we cannot affirm that there are three divine persons, because that is a positive affirmation. Nice job, genius!

    ReplyDelete
  157. @dguller

    Sorry for barging in, but..

    I've been wondering about precisely what you take 'divine relation' to mean. G-L says that Aquinas held a divine person to be a divine relation as subsistent.

    In chapter 'Divine Persons' of 'Reality' he writes that the persons are really distinct by reason of opposition.
    'The principle of commonality' is the divine essense.
    What the the Father has that both the Son and the Holy Spirit lack is paternity. The Son has exclusively - G-L uses the word 'incommunicable' - is filiation, The Holy Spirit - passive spiration.
    The three persons are distinct from the other only by the three relations mutually opposed.
    'The principle of distinction' is this opposition, is it not?

    A quote from G-L is warranted, I suppose:
    "Here enters the saint's response to an objection often heard. The objection runs thus: Things which are really identified with one and the same third thing are identified with one another. But the divine relations and the divine persons are really identified with the divine essence. Hence the divine relations and the divine persons are identified with one another.

    The solution runs thus: Things which are really identified with one and the same third thing are identified with one another; yes, unless their mutual opposition is greater than their sameness with this third thing. Otherwise I must say No. To illustrate. Look at the three angles of a triangle. Are they really distinct one from the other? Most certainly. Yet each of them is identified with one and the same surface."

    ReplyDelete
  158. I've been wondering about precisely what you take 'divine relation' to mean. G-L says that Aquinas held a divine person to be a divine relation as subsistent.

    Same for me.

    The three persons are distinct from the other only by the three relations mutually opposed. 
'The principle of distinction' is this opposition, is it not?

    Yes, it is.

    The solution runs thus: Things which are really identified with one and the same third thing are identified with one another; yes, unless their mutual opposition is greater than their sameness with this third thing. Otherwise I must say No.

    But in that case, the two things are not actually identical to the third thing. At most, they are partially identical to the third thing. In that case, what would follow is that the two things are partially identical to one another, but only if they have something in common, which they also shared with the third thing. If that is what Aquinas is arguing, then it is not true that the divine persons are identical to the divine essence, but rather that the divine persons are partially identical to the divine essence. That is the only way to avoid the conclusion that the divine persons are identical to one another.

    To illustrate. Look at the three angles of a triangle. Are they really distinct one from the other? Most certainly. Yet each of them is identified with one and the same surface."

    Second, the triangle example does not work. Call the three angles A1, A2 and A3. A1, A2 and A3 are really distinct from one another. But it is false that A1 (or A2 or A3) is identical to the triangle itself. In fact, A1, A2 and A3 are each parts of the triangle, and thus the solution described above would only work with composite entities, and be utterly useless for a simple being, such as God.

    ReplyDelete
  159. You simply can't claim a logical contradiction exists in the doctrine of the Trinity by changing the doctrine. Nor can you make up your own rules for formulating Christian doctrine. Nor can you make up you own novel doctrines and pretend they are part of the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Natural Theology is formulated by reason alone and Sacred Theology is formulated by reason, revelation and authority as taught by Aquinas.

    The Church Authority has already condemned any claim divine relations are somehow really distinct from the divine essence. That same authority has already infallibly defined divine relations as being the same as the divine essence.

    So claiming the Trinity teaches divine relations are both really distinct and not really distinct from essence is just gay and not the doctrine of the Trinity.


    Claiming God is One God and Three Gods at the same time is a clear logical contradiction. Since you are literally saying God is One God and not One God and Three Gods and Not three Gods at the same time in the same sense. Which is just a way of saying God is both X & not X at the same time in the same sense.

    Saying God is in one sense mysterious relative relations and in another sense physically & metaphysically simple essence while both being God in the same common third sense is simply not a logical contradiction. Since the only common sense here is both relative relations and absolute essence are both God.

    If you claim there is a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity you are dimly ignorant of the doctrine.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous:

    You simply can't claim a logical contradiction exists in the doctrine of the Trinity by changing the doctrine. Nor can you make up your own rules for formulating Christian doctrine. Nor can you make up you own novel doctrines and pretend they are part of the doctrine of the Trinity.

    I didn’t change the doctrine of the Trinity. You can’t point out anything in my argument that violates the doctrine, other than the fact that it finds the doctrine to be logically contradictory. That’s why you can’t identify which premises in my argument that you reject. The premises are clearly true, and you cannot reject them. However, by accepting them, you must accept the conclusion, which you absolutely refuse to do. So, you use distraction and diversion tactics to avoid confronting the real issue here. You claim that I’ve distorted the doctrine without providing any specifics, and you cite modifications that I have not made at all. You are arguing with a straw man of your imagination rather than me, and you have been for weeks now.

    The Church Authority has already condemned any claim divine relations are somehow really distinct from the divine essence. That same authority has already infallibly defined divine relations as being the same as the divine essence.

    I know that, and I claim to have an argument that shows that the Church is wrong here. The only way to save your doctrine is to identify which premises in my argument are false. And note that they would have to be premises in my argument, and not some argument that only exists in your imagination.

    So claiming the Trinity teaches divine relations are both really distinct and not really distinct from essence is just gay and not the doctrine of the Trinity.

    I am not claiming that is what the Trinity “teaches”. I know that the Trinity teaches that the divine relations are really identical to the divine essence. My argument is that if what the divine persons have in common cannot be really identical to what the divine persons do not have in common, then it is necessarily true that the divine relations cannot be really identical to the divine essence, which contradicts what the Trinity teaches. And this has nothing to do with homosexuality.

    Claiming God is One God and Three Gods at the same time is a clear logical contradiction. Since you are literally saying God is One God and not One God and Three Gods and Not three Gods at the same time in the same sense. Which is just a way of saying God is both X & not X at the same time in the same sense.

    That is not the argument at all.

    Saying God is in one sense mysterious relative relations and in another sense physically & metaphysically simple essence while both being God in the same common third sense is simply not a logical contradiction. Since the only common sense here is both relative relations and absolute essence are both God.

    That is not the argument at all.

    If you claim there is a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity you are dimly ignorant of the doctrine.

    If you claim that a logical argument is unsound without explaining which premises are false and/or how the argument is invalid, then you are dimly ignorant of logic and reason. I think it’s pretty clear by this point that you have no idea what you are talking about. You have cited a distinction between real, virtual and notional distinctions, but cannot explain what these terms mean. You have claimed that my argument is unsound by attacking a different argument altogether, and utterly refusing to identify what parts of my actual argument are false. If you are the best that the Trinity has to defend itself, then that is just unfortunate, because it certainly deserves better than you ... Ben.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Anonymous:

    We can start very simply. Look at the following principle:

    (1) If A is really distinct from B, then what A and B have in common cannot be really identical to what A and B do not have in common

    Do you accept or reject (1)? If you reject it, then you accept the following:

    (2) If A is really distinct from B, then what A and B have in common is really identical to what A and B do not have in common

    Unfortunately, (2) is logically equivalent to the following:

    (3) If A is really distinct from B, then X is really identical to not-X

    And clearly, (3) is a logical contradiction, because it is impossible for X to be really identical to not-X. For example, it would be like saying that red is really identical to not-red.

    Therefore, (1) is necessarily true.

    Any problems so far?

    ReplyDelete
  162. If you claim there is a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity you are dimly ignorant of the doctrine.

    BTW a divine person, then, according to St. Thomas and his school, is a divine relation as subsistent. Elsewhere the saint gives the following definition: A divine person is nothing else than a relationally distinct reality, subsistent in the divine essence.-Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O. P.

    A real physical distinction divides things into parts. Like cutting a pie in half. The pie has two distinct halves but neither half possesses the whole pie but 50% of it. Each divine relation is fully God and not partially God.

    A thought in a human mind(assuming a non-materiaist/physicalist view of the mind) is not physically distinct from the mind in that it somehow divides part of the mind from another. Still the thought in a mind is a potency being made actual by the mind so it is metaphysically distinct from the mind. No divine relation is a potency. since the divine essence cannot contain potency and be a divine essence.

    The divine relations/persons are really distinct from one another by relation of opposition. But neither are any type of real physical or metaphysical distinction.

    What they are is an absolute mystery we cannot know apart from divine revelation and church authority & neither let us infer anything about them apart from the fact the mandate we say things like "The Father is not the same divine Person as either the Son or the Holy Spirit".

    There is no way to conclude they somehow cause some type of real distinction between relations and essence since neither revelation or Church allow that & in fact condemn that.

    You can't find a logical contradiction in the Trinity by making up your own doctrine.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Additionally you cannot invent a logical contradiction by equivocating between different types of real distinctions & pretending they are all completely interchangeable.

    Real physical, real metaphysical & real mysterious distinctions by opposition are only alike in that as real distinctions they exist in reality in some objective way and not merely as abstractions in the mind such as logical distinctions & or notional ones.

    At no time is claiming that God is both real mysterious distinct relations by opposition(i.e. relative persons/relations) and an essence that lacks any real physical and metaphysical distinctions (i.e. absolute essence) a logical contradiction.

    Since by definition you are not claiming God is both X and Not X at the same time in the same sense.

    You are merely saying God is both X and Y. But X is not an example of Not Y nor is Y and example of Not X.

    You can't find a logical contradiction in the Trinity by making up your own doctrine.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Professor Feser,

    Excellent article. This would be a good subject matter for your next book.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Dr. Feser, do you recommend reading Kuhn's work "The Mystery of Existence" and subscribing to his website "Closer to Truth"? (I'm not a philosophy student and I'm still trying to learn the ropes. I'm hoping to have a solid basis in Aristotelian-Thomism.) Thank you!

    ReplyDelete
  166. Professor Feser,

    Hoping you'll respond to this even though it's on a very old thread.

    I'm curious about the implications of divine simplicity on how we communicate about God. I think I understand and agree with the doctrine, but I'm confused about the practical significance. Let's say one is preaching the Bible, does it really matter if one says "God is faithful" as opposed to "Something about God is analogous to what we as humans experience as faithfulness." I'm sure there are people who hold to a philosophical position of theological personalism, but I find it likely that there are many Christians (especially Protestants) who might agree with the doctrine of divine simplicity yet communicate about God in a way that appears as if they are theological personalists.

    After all, it's much more concise (and I'd say clearer to an audience) to preach (as Scripture does) "The Lord is gracious and righteous; our God is full of compassion" (Ps 116:5) than to preach "The ultimate source of reality doesn't exactly have properties, but manifests what is analogous to what we humans call graciousness, righteousness, and compassion."

    Outside of a philosophical discussion on the specific topic of divine simplicity, the "theological personalist" way of talking about God seems perfectly appropriate.

    I see you (Ed), and others (such has DBH), camp out on this divine simplicity issue as one of major importance, and I'm wondering if it's as widespread of a theological shift toward theological personalism as you might think or just a way that people talk and write about God.

    Why do you view this as such a vital issue?

    Practically speaking I'd think that it would matter much more that someone understand the basic idea that God is powerful than to understand the technical philosophical distinction that He is pure actuality that manifests something analogous to what we humans view as power.

    One would think that most people who believe in God and have some sort of relationship with God through Christ believe in divine simplicity even if they aren't familiar with the term or don't communicate in a way that demonstrates an understanding of the philosophical nuance of the term.

    Is your battle more with those from a materialistic atheist bent who argue against God's existence from a position that starts off with a mischaracterization of the nature of God?

    ReplyDelete