Friday, October 4, 2013

Why Is There Anything At All? It’s Simple


Note: The following article is cross-posted over at First Things.

I thank John Leslie and Robert Lawrence Kuhn for their gracious and substantive response to my recent comments on their fine anthology The Mystery of Existence: Why Is There Anything At All?  In the course of my earlier remarks, I put forward a “friendly criticism” to the effect that John and Robert had paid insufficient attention in their book to the tradition of classical theism, which has its philosophical roots in Aristotelian and Neo-Platonic thought and whose many illustrious representatives include Augustine, Anselm, Avicenna, Maimonides, and Aquinas.  Though there are selections from some of these writers, they are very brief, and the bulk of the theological selections in the book are from recent writers of what has sometimes been called a “theistic personalist” or “neo-theist” bent.  John and Robert have offered a lively defense of their approach.  In what follows I’d like to respond, pressing the case for the primacy of the classical theistic tradition.
 
Classical theism, divine simplicity, and ultimate explanation

One of the points John and Robert make in their defense is an appeal to the very specific aim of their volume:

Our book’s limited mission is to build appreciation for the most baffling of all enigmas: Why is there something rather than nothing? In its shadow, all the big questions – Does God exist?  Why the universe? Life after death? – are eclipsed…

The Mystery of Existence is not about the clash between classical and modern/personal forms of theism ("theistic personalism"), a distinction that is anyway not directly on point in explicating Nothing (our limited mission again), since in either case, classical or modern/personal, God can be in some sense necessary.

End quote.  Now, while our editors are of course the best experts on their mission for the volume, I would respectfully disagree with them about the relevance of classical theism to that mission.  For the philosophical dispute between classical and modern forms of theism is, I would argue, exactly on point.  And when we understand why, we will also see that the question whether God exists is in no way eclipsed by the question why there is something rather than nothing -- on the contrary, the existence of God, as classical theism understands God, is (so the classical theist would argue) the only possible answer in principle to that question.  Let me explain.

Both classical theism on the one hand and “theistic personalism” or “neo-theism” on the other have their strictly theological aspects.  There is, for instance, a longstanding dispute over which of these views better comports with what we find said about God in the Bible.  I would certainly agree with John and Robert that such disputes are tangential to the aims of their volume.

However, both views also have a purely philosophical side, and their purely philosophical differences make a world of difference to the question of whether theism offers us any insight into the question of why anything exists at all.  For you might say that classical theism in its philosophical aspect just is the development of the implications of there being an ultimate explanation of why anything exists at all.  Theistic personalism or neo-theism, by contrast, is motivated by a different set of concerns, and touches on the question of ultimate explanation only in a secondary way.

At the core of classical theism is the notion of divine simplicity -- the idea that God is non-composite or without parts.  This is a doctrine having its philosophical roots in Plato and Aristotle and defended by pagan, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim thinkers as diverse as Philo of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, Plotinus, Augustine, Boethius, Anselm, Maimonides, Avicenna, Averroes, Aquinas, and Scotus.  The doctrine is the de fide teaching of the Catholic Church and is endorsed by many Protestant theologians.  The point of all this name-dropping is to emphasize how absolutely central the doctrine of divine simplicity is to the mainstream Western tradition in philosophical theology.  And why is it so central?

The reason is that for the classical theist, whatever else we mean by “God,” we certainly mean by that label to name the ultimate source, cause, or explanation of things.  Properly to understand classical theism, the hostile atheist reader might even find it useful to put the word “God” out of his mind for the moment -- given all the irrelevant associations the word might lead him to read into the present discussion -- and just think instead of “the ultimate source of things.”  The classical theist maintains that whatever is in any way composed of parts cannot be the ultimate source of things.  For wherever we have a composite thing, a thing made up of parts, we have something that requires a cause of its own, a cause which accounts for how the parts get together.

This is obviously true of the ordinary things of our experience.  For example, a given chair exists only because there is something (a carpenter, or a machine) that assembled the legs, seat, etc. into a chair.  And the chair continues to exist only insofar as certain combining factors -- such as the tackiness of glue or friction between screw threads -- continue to operate.  The point applies also to things whose composition is less crudely mechanical.  A water molecule depends for its existence on the oxygen and hydrogen atoms that make it up together with the principles of covalent bonding. 

But it is true at deeper metaphysical levels as well.  Any changeable thing, the Aristotelian argues, must be composed of actuality and potentiality.  For example, an ice cube melts because it has a potential to take on a liquid form that is actualized by the heat in the surrounding air.  In any contingent thing, the Thomist argues, its essence is distinct from its existence.  That is why a tree (say) can come into existence and go out of existence, since what it is to be a tree -- a tree’s essence or nature -- by itself entails nothing one way or the other about whether it exists.  Whether it is, you might say, is distinct from what it is.  Actuality and potentiality, existence and essence are thus components of any thing that has both -- even if they are metaphysical components rather than material components -- and their composition entails that such a thing depends on a cause, on something that actualizes its potentials, that imparts existence to its essence. 

So, whatever the ultimate source, cause, or explanation of things is -- again, refrain from calling it “God” if you want -- it cannot be made up of material components, or actuality and potentiality, or existence and essence.  Nor can it be composed of any other metaphysical parts -- genus and difference, substance and properties, or what have you.  It cannot be an instance of a genus, for then it will require some aspect or other that differentiates it from other instances of that genus, and that entails having metaphysical parts.  It cannot instantiate properties since that would, again, require some differentiating feature that sets it apart from other instances of those properties, which again entails having metaphysical parts.

Naturally, if it is the ultimate source, cause or explanation of things it is actual or existent -- it could hardly cause or explain anything otherwise -- but it is not a compound of actuality and potentiality as other things are, nor a compound of existence and essence.  It would have to be, always and “already” as it were, pure actuality rather than something that has or could have any potential in need of actualization.  It would have to be, not “an” existent thing among other existent things, but pure being or existence itself.  Anything less would require a cause or source of its own and thus not be the ultimate cause or source.

Note that on the classical theist view of ultimate explanation, there are no inexplicable “brute facts.”  Things that require causes require them because they have potentials that need to be actualized and parts that need to be combined.  To say of a thing that it has parts and yet lacks any cause which accounts for their combination, or has potentiality yet lacks any cause which actualized that potentiality, would be to make of it a “brute fact.”  But that is precisely what the classical theist does not say about the ultimate cause of things.  It says instead that, since it is purely actual (and thus devoid of potentials that could be actualized) and absolutely simple (and thus devoid of parts that could be combined), it not only need not have a cause but could not in principle have had one.  It, and it alone, has its source of intelligibility in itself rather than in some external cause. 

So, whatever else we say about the ultimate cause, source, or explanation of things -- and whether or not we want to call it “God,” whether or not we want to identify it with the God of the Bible specifically, and whether or not we think it has any religious implications in the first place -- we are going to have to regard it as absolutely simple or non-composite, as pure actuality devoid of potentiality, and as being itself rather than something that merely instantiates being.  We are also going to have to regard it as immutable and uncaused, because only what has potentiality capable of being actualized, or parts capable of being combined, can be caused or undergo change, and the source or cause of all things must be devoid of potentiality or parts. 

Now, whatever one thinks of this set of ideas -- and obviously there are various questions and objections that might be raised -- it is surely not “eclipsed” by the question of why something exists rather than nothing, and it is surely “on point”!  For what the classical theist claims to be doing is elucidating what any possible answer to that question must involve.  And as I have emphasized, this approach to that question is the dominant one in the history of Western thought.  What could be more relevant to the mission of The Mystery of Existence?

Theistic personalism versus classical theism

“Theistic personalism” or “neo-theism” -- I borrow the labels from Brian Davies and Norman Geisler, respectively -- is a very different story.  This relatively recent movement in philosophy of religion and theology -- represented by a diverse set of thinkers such as the analytic philosophers Alvin Plantinga and Richard Swinburne, process philosophers and theologians like Charles Hartshorne, and advocates of “open theism” like Clark Pinnock and William Hasker -- is primarily motivated, not by questions of ultimate explanation, but by theological and philosophical objections to certain key aspects of the classical theistic conception of God.  Indeed, theistic personalism is defined perhaps above all by its rejection of precisely that notion that the classical theist regards as essential to ultimate explanation -- the idea of divine simplicity. 

Whereas the classical theist’s philosophical analysis of the idea of God typically begins by thinking of Him as the ultimate cause of things, the theistic personalist begins instead by conceiving of God as a certain kind of “person.”  Hence Alvin Plantinga characterizes theism as “the thought that there is such a person as God: a personal agent who has created the world and is all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good” (Where the Conflict Really Lies, p. ix).  According to Richard Swinburne, “that God is a person, yet one without a body, seems the most elementary claim of theism” (The Coherence of Theism, p. 99).  One of the main objections theistic personalists often raise against the idea of divine simplicity is that it makes God out to be too abstract, and is irreconcilable with the idea that God is a person. 

Now classical theists, in general, by no means regard God as impersonal.  They typically argue that when the notion of the ultimate cause of all things is fully developed, it can be seen that there is a sense in which we must attribute to this cause intellect and will.  But the meaning of these terms as applied to God must be very carefully unpacked, and anthropomorphism avoided.  And it is definitely a mistake from the classical theist point of view to start with the idea that God is, like us, an instance of the kind or genus “person,” who instantiates some of the same properties that other persons do, but has them to a higher degree and lacks some of the other properties (such as corporeality).  Yet that seems to be the approach that the theistic personalist or neo-theist is at least implicitly committed to.

There are various objections that can be raised against this approach, but the most relevant one for present purposes is that insofar as theistic personalism implies that God has parts, or that he is one instance among others of a kind, or that like those others he instantiates properties, etc., it makes theism simply unsuitable as a candidate for ultimate explanation.  For (as the classical theist sees things, anyway) it makes of God something essentially creaturely -- something which, like other composites, requires a cause of his own.  Or if he doesn’t have one, he will simply be a brute fact and thus not an ultimate explanation at all -- something which, like other things, is composite, but which merely happens inexplicably nevertheless not to have been caused.  This opens theism up to New Atheist-style objections to the effect that God is a metaphysical fifth wheel -- something which at best seems dubiously preferable to taking the universe as the ultimate brute fact, and at worst seems ruled out by Ockham’s razor.

The question of whether a deity of the theistic personalist sort exists or not therefore does seem “eclipsed” by the question of why anything exists at all, and “not directly on point.”  And that was precisely my point in offering my friendly criticism of John and Robert’s choice of selections for The Mystery of Existence.  Given the book’s mission, it would, I argue, have been more appropriate to emphasize classical theist writers and give theistic personalist or neo-theist writers secondary consideration.  But (as I have complained) the reverse course was followed.

An objection to divine simplicity

John and Robert offer a second defense of their choice of emphasis in the book by raising an objection to classical theism and its core notion of divine simplicity:

[C]lassical theism really is puzzling…

Aquinas sees God’s properties as all of them ultimately identical. God’s goodness just is God’s power, for example, and that just is God’s knowledge, which in turn just is God’s existence; for God’s essence simply is to exist..

Aquinas may make some of this easier to accept through stressing that we speak of God “only analogically”.  But doesn’t that itself say that we’ve little idea of what we’re talking about, and that discussing it for many pages wouldn’t alter this unalterable fact? Theistic readers of The Mystery of Existence may feel relieved when the “personal theist” Timothy O’Connor tells them that while he, too, sees God’s goodness, power, and knowledge as intimately linked, he finds it “very hard to be sure” what Aquinas’s doctrine “is supposed to come to”.

Again, those readers may welcome Richard Swinburne’s description of God as “a spirit, a non-embodied person”…  [T]o Richard, the claim that the divine properties are identical to each other and to God depends on the somewhat arbitrary way “one divides up the properties of a thing (how many properties one says that some thing has) – and that applies to all things, not only to God. And it remains extremely puzzling how a property can be the same as a substance in which it inheres…”

End quote.  The first thing to say in response is that it cannot be emphasized too greatly that divine simplicity is not merely Aquinas’s doctrine.  It is by no means the eccentric teaching of a single thinker or two.  Rather, it is the common heritage of the entire mainstream Western tradition in theology and philosophy of religion, endorsed by the major pagan, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim thinkers referred to above and incorporated into the official theology of Roman Catholicism.  The thinkers in question may disagree over certain details, but they all affirm that divine simplicity itself is non-negotiable.

Second, the reason it is non-negotiable is, as I have emphasized, its essential connection to the very idea of an ultimate cause, source, or explanation of things.  The classical theist holds that nothing could be an ultimate explanation or cause unless it is absolutely simple or non-composite. 

So, the stakes couldn’t be higher.  To reject divine simplicity is not merely to disagree with a particular philosopher or two.  It is to reject the entire mainstream tradition in philosophical theology, and implicitly to deny the very possibility of ultimate explanation.  Or, again, so the classical theist would argue.  No doubt theistic personalists would disagree, but -- especially given that theirs is, historically speaking, by far the minority position -- an anthology like The Mystery of Existence should give a sense of the importance of the dispute between the two views.

A third point is that objections to divine simplicity of the sort raised by John and Robert in any event either miss the point or beg the question.  Yes, the doctrine of divine simplicity is difficult to understand, but no more so than any other theory that requires us radically to abstract from the conditions of everyday material reality and apply concepts in novel and even seemingly paradoxical ways -- as, of course, many philosophical and scientific theories do.  (Wave-particle duality, anyone?  Time as a fourth dimension, anyone?)

Hence, yes, if we carve up the conceptual territory the way the theistic personalist does, then of course divine simplicity will seem odd or even incoherent.  So, suppose we took God to be one instance among others of the kind or genus “person,” who thus instantiates the same properties we do -- power, knowledge, goodness, etc. -- just to a higher degree.  Since what we call “power,” “knowledge,” “goodness,” etc. in us are obviously different properties, and all of these properties are also in turn different from the substances in which they inhere, then it would follow that they are different properties in God and different also from the substance in which they inhere in his case.  And so if we went on to say that God’s goodness, power, knowledge, etc. are all identical, this would, naturally, seem unintelligible. 

But of course, that is simply not what Aquinas and other classical theists are saying.  For instance, Aquinas does not start out by attributing power, knowledge, goodness, etc. to God in just the same sense that theistic personalists do, and then out of the blue tack on some strange stuff about simplicity and analogy.  Rather, he starts by arguing for a cause of the world that is absolutely simple, pure actuality, etc. (Summa theologiae I, qq. 2-3), then argues that what we predicate of this cause cannot, for that very reason, be exactly what we predicate of the things of our experience, but only analogues of what we predicate of those things (Summa theologiae I, q. 4).  Hence when we say that God has power and knowledge (for example) we don’t mean that He instantiates the properties having power and having knowledge, just as we do.  We mean that there is something in Him that is analogous to what we call “power” and “knowledge” in us, but that whatever this amounts to, it does not amount to his “having” just the same thing we do, or instantiating “properties,” or being a substance in which various distinct attributes inhere, etc. 

Compare wave-particle duality.  A physicist familiar with Aquinas’s theory of the analogous use of language might find it useful to say that quantum theory tells us that there is something in quantum phenomena that is analogous to what we call “particles” and analogous to what we call “waves” -- but that it can only be analogous and not precisely the same as what we ordinarily call “particles” and “waves,” because being a particle in the usual sense excludes being wave-like, and vice versa.  Aquinas is saying something comparable to that.  He is saying that the arguments of philosophical theology show that there is a cause of all things that is absolutely simple, pure actuality, etc., and that (as he goes on to argue in the rest of Part I of the Summa) there is also something analogous to power, knowledge, goodness, etc. in this cause, but that precisely because the cause is simple, pure actuality, etc. what we are attributing to the cause is only analogous to, and not exactly the same thing as, what we attribute to ourselves.

Hence there is nothing any more suspect about Aquinas’s procedure than there is in quantum theory.  And if quantum theory is acceptable despite being notoriously difficult to interpret, why should we expect a line of argument that deals with an even more fundamental question than quantum theory does -- the question of why anything exists at all -- to yield conclusions that are any less difficult to wrap our minds around?  On the contrary, we should expect that the ultimate cause of all things will be extremely difficult for us to understand, rather than being -- as the deity of theistic personalism is -- essentially “one of us” (as the Joan Osborne song puts it). 

Platonism and possibility

Let me make some brief remarks about John’s own preferred view of these matters, which is a kind of Platonism.  John and Robert suggest that Aquinas’s view might be in the same ballpark as Plato’s notion of the Form of the Good, which can also be thought of as simple in the relevant sense.  I would say that that is exactly correct -- Aquinas is presenting a view which in its details is certainly importantly different from Plato’s, but is still in the same broad classical tradition.  The view sketched out by John and Robert at the end of their piece is essentially representative of the Neo-Platonic branch of a larger tradition of which Aquinas represents the Aristotelian branch (albeit with some Neo-Platonic influences).  So, the dispute between John and me is really a kind of family squabble.  And regarding the contents of The Mystery of Existence, I suppose the point is that I wish John and Robert had included more selections from the members of our philosophical family!

(By the way, when I characterized John’s brand of Platonism as “distinctive” and “somewhat eccentric” -- and those words were not meant to be pejorative, but merely descriptive! -- what I meant is this.  John has sometimes described his position as entailing that “creative value” is the source of all things, and that the universe exists because of its “ethical requiredness.”  I think that in substance what he is defending is essentially the sort of view one finds in Plato and Plotinus, but that the language in which he expresses it is arguably too modern and potentially misleading.  At least since Hume, “value” connotes for most philosophers something that depends on someone who does the valuing, and thus seems essentially subjective or mind-dependent.  And the “ethical,” for most modern philosophers, essentially connotes a property of the actions of rational creatures like us.  Hence a position like John’s is -- quite mistakenly, but understandably -- bound to seem very strange and even unintelligible to most contemporary philosophers.  More traditional Platonic expressions like “the Form of the Good” or even just “the Good,” while hardly common in contemporary philosophy, are in my view preferable since they better convey the objectivity or mind-independence of what John is talking about.)

Finally, I want to respond to one last objection raised by John and Robert:

Here’s something that puzzled us.  While Ed notes rightly “how could anything actually exist unless it were in some sense a possibility?”, why does he seem to make God an exception to this rule?  Even if God, instead of being a Person or a Being in a fairly straightforward sense, “just is Subsistent Being Itself”, doesn’t it remain true that God exists?  And if so, why does Ed write that all possibilities “pre-exist as ideas in the divine intellect”?  For what about the possibility of God’s own existence?  How could this possibility itself depend on the fact that God existed so as to be able to think about it?

End quote.  This objection seems to presuppose that I take the realm of abstract possibilities to be the fundamental level of reality.  The idea would be that everything that actually exists, including God, is in a sense dependent on a metaphysically more fundamental set of facts about what possibly could exist in the first place.  And in that case, it would make no sense to say that possibilities depend on God.

But that is not my view.  I would say that possibilities couldn’t be the most fundamental level of reality, precisely because they are mere possibilities rather than actualities.  Indeed, what is most fundamental can only be what is pure actuality in the sense described above.  And what is pure actuality exists necessarily rather than in a merely possible way, precisely because it has no potentialities that could either be actualized or fail to be actualized.  True, this ultimate cause is also “possible” in the trivial sense that, being existent, it can hardly be impossible.  But its possibility follows from its actuality rather than being a precondition of its actuality.  All other things that exist are mixtures of actuality and potentiality and of essence and existence, which is why their possibility precedes their actuality.  And their possibility is grounded in their ultimate cause -- the purely actual, absolutely simple divine source of all.

Obviously the metaphysical waters here are deep and I have hardly answered every question that might be raised about classical theism, even in this already-too-long article.  But these are depths that need to be plumbed if we are fully to explore the question of why anything at all exists rather than nothing.  Hence my wish that more readings from the classical philosophical tradition had been included in The Mystery of Existence.  But as we have seen, John and Robert are not entirely unsympathetic to that tradition, and insofar as they have seriously grappled with its central concerns, they are its loyal sons.  For their important contribution to the current debate, we are in their debt.

766 comments:

  1. Feser, delete the comments by this asshole George. Did you see what he said about Blessed Newman? Fuck this guy.

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  2. Hopefully on track again and about simplicity - what is the response, if your conversation can't go to the lengths Brandon and dguller are going to, to the question of reconciling divine simplicity and incarnation?
    Thanking you,
    Chris

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  3. I guess ole George thinks he's pulling a fast one changing his tag to Fred. Lol

    Eric

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  4. Brandon:

    A referent, after all, is just what you can refer to, and what you are referring to is going to be different depending on whether we're talking about passengers or people to begin with.

    So let me clarify. When I am asking about whether E and X have the same R, I am not asking whether E and X are different aspects of a common R, much like the Morning Star and the Evening Star are different aspects of the planet Venus, but rather whether E and X are the exact same R itself.

    Here’s another way to think about it. Say that you have R. R is either simple or composite. If R is simple, then R has no parts, and if R is composite, then R has parts. Call the different parts of R, R1 and R2. When I ask whether E and X have the same R, I can either mean that E directly refers to R1 and X directly refers to R2, but they both indirectly refer to R in the sense that they are both parts of R, or I can mean that E and X directly refer to R itself. So, what I am asking in my argument is whether E and X both directly refer to R, and not whether E and X indirectly refer to R via R1 and R2 being parts of R.

    The difficulty with the Trinity -- and it's another reason why we have to go modal -- is that the Church Fathers are very clear that there are at least two distinct logical universes of discourse for talking about the Trinity: the universe of Divine Persons and the universe of Divine Substances/Beings (the latter logical universe, of course, has only one real member). Comparing universes of discourse, however, requires modal logic.

    But the question is how those distinct universes of discourse relate to one another. In other words, how precisely does one translate from one universe of discourse to another? And if there is no way to translate between them, then does this matter? It seems like it would matter, because the materialist claims that consciousness is a material process, and yet these is no way of translating consciousness into material processes without eliminating consciousness altogether. If the lack of translation is no big deal, then the impossibility of translating subjective consciousness into material processes, and vice versa, is also no big deal, which undermines probably the strongest argument against materialism. And so if the lack of translation is a big deal, then that should have a negative impact upon the Trinity if there is no translation between the universes of discourse that you described above.

    Aquinas himself considers your numerical argument. He denies that the numerical terms are taken in a quantitative sense; they simply indicate distinction or lack thereof. Where do you think his response goes wrong?

    It goes wrong, because he confuses multiplicity with Trinity. I agree that if the Trinity simply said that there is a distinction between undivided divine persons, then my objection would utterly fail, because one remains in the realm of transcendental multiplicity. But that leaves one completely unable to describe how many units there are in God, because to specify a number of units in God would be to use the quantity of number, which necessarily means applying accidents to God, which is impossible. So, once you go beyond mere transcendental multiplicity, and posit a number of transcendental units, one has stepped into the impossible.

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  5. I wonder actually if you might be trying to get more out of reference than is possible: that is, that you want to give 'referent' an ontological character as identifying some basic kind of real thing. This is not-unreasonable view, and is arguably widely assumed. But one can equally hold that referents have no particular ontological status in themselves, so that, for instance, something can be a referent under one description and not a referent under another -- indeed, while Fregean approaches to logic suggest the former, the old-style Boolean approaches suggest the latter, because of the way they used universe of discourse. (As I noted above.) This would get into a pretty complicated discussion pretty quickly, but I think it's worth at least noting the possible divergence in interpretation here.

    First, God is not a “kind of real thing”. God is not a kind of anything at all, because that would place him under a genus, which is impossible.

    Second, I am asking whether E and X have the same R in the same way that divine goodness and divine power have the same R. The divine attributes only seem different to our finite and composite intellects, but the reality is that they are one and the same in reality. That is the universe of discourse that I am using here, and I don’t think that it is incoherent and impermissible to do so. If E and X are really one and the same R in reality in this sense, then you have a logical contradiction, because R cannot simultaneously be really distinct in some way and not really distinct in any way. In that case, to avoid the logical contradiction, you must choose one or the other to predicate of R. If you choose real distinction, then the Trinity is true but divine simplicity is false. If you choose no real distinction, then divine simplicity is true but the Trinity is false. Neither of these options is good for the Trinitarian who also embraces divine simplicity, and thus one must reject as false the claim that E and X are one and the same R in reality.

    It would then follow that E and X must refer to different R’s such that E refers to R1 and X refers to R2. That would mean that R1 is Being Itself, and R2 is a creature, because anything that is not Being Itself depends upon Being Itself by virtue of being a created entity. But this leads to the absurdity of the divine persons not existing before creation, which would preserve divine simplicity (because the divine essence is Being Itself by virtue of divine simplicity), but falsifies the Trinity. Or, one can embrace the Trinity as true, which means rejecting that the divine essence is Being Itself, which would falsify divine simplicity.

    So, either way, divine simplicity and the Trinity cannot simultaneously be true, if A-T is true. But perhaps A-T is false?

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  6. And if there is no way to translate between them, then does this matter? It seems like it would matter, because the materialist claims that consciousness is a material process, and yet these is no way of translating consciousness into material processes without eliminating consciousness altogether. If the lack of translation is no big deal, then the impossibility of translating subjective consciousness into material processes, and vice versa, is also no big deal, which undermines probably the strongest argument against materialism.

    This seems obviously false. A materialist conceding that it's actually impossible to translate consciousness into physical processes would be affirming the very thing that many or most non-materialists are claiming, and a materialist who was an eliminativist would be affirming that there is nothing "impossible to translate" because there's nothing to translate after all.

    Maybe what you mean isn't a materialist who concedes that it's impossible to translate consciousness into physical processes, but a materialist who concedes that they themselves see no way to translate consciousness into physical processes, but who nevertheless has faith that there is some way. I don't think that's of much help either, since one of the first options (repeated by A-T theorists even) is that our understanding of the "material", as told by the materialist, is wrong or incomplete. So even if there is a way for consciousness (qualia?) to "be" physical, the materialist would still be in a bind, because he has to defend his particular concept of the material too.

    As far as the rest of the conversation goes, I think the materialist and the Catholic trinitarian are in very different situations. For the Catholic trinitarian, when all is said and done, it seems entirely acceptable to simply shrug one's shoulders, admit they do not understand all the details of the trinity and divine simplicity, and go on believing it. It is, after all, expressly called a mystery right from the get-go, and reason is bolstering the investment in revelation to begin with. The typical materialist has no revelation to cite as an authority, so mysteries aren't dealt with nearly as neatly - when a materialist decides to believe in and accept a mystery, they're on their own. Fideism is an option, but I think if the materialist is helping themselves to fideism, the scales couldn't be tipped more towards the Christian and non-materialist overall.

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  7. @ Jeremy Taylor,

    The situation was more complex than that.

    It was already universally customary to call the Pope "Father" before the East-West schism, regardless of who was addressing him, including other major Patriarchs. The sudden failure to honour this custom by an equally suddenly newly "Ecumenical" Patriarch of Constantinople (addressing the Pope instead as "brother") appears to have been the primary cause of the Pope's alarm towards this Eastern Patriarch and motivated his dispatching of legates inclusive of a bull of excommunication if needed. For the Pope, this alteration of ancient custom on the part of the Eastern Patriarch was a novel and presumptuous reordering of Sacred and Apostolic Tradition. The not-so-warm welcome his legates received in Constantinople from the Patriarch only seems to have convinced them that the new Ecumenical Patriarch was indeed schismatic.

    You can go back to Pope St. Clement's letter to the Corinthians in the first century A.D. to see a Roman bishop assuming it as his personal responsibility to intervene in another Church's affairs in order to ensure justice in the Church, the correct doctrine of the Faith, and that the Apostolic rights of the duly appointed clergy be upheld in order to restore order to the Church. Ridiculously, some controvertists will claim that the Pope had this authority and jurisdiction over the Corinthians because there was a Latin colony there (as if we are supposed to believe that the Church in Corinth excluded Greeks and there was a seperate Church for them). This absurdity is belied by the fact that the letter was in fact written in Greek. More seriously, they will note that the letter from the Pope was in response to an appeal also made to him by that same Church. But of course this begs the question as to why they appealed to the Pope for his opinion and recommendations in the first place, and why they would do so if his words were nothing more than his personal advice or opinion. Obviously at the very least the Pope was believed to have a special authority on these matters.

    The ancient Church Fathers, moreover, made their belief clear that every Christian in the entire world had to be in communion and doctrinal agreement with the Church of Rome which "presided in charity" over the entire Church. Modern attempts to reduce this presidency to nothing more than a requirement of Christians to flatter the Holy Father with purely honorary recognitions that in practice were meaningless only beg the question.

    While the exact workings of the Christian communion in the sudden light of a Christian empire was a novel situation for the Church and had to be worked out given the changed situation, notwithstanding the unique place and authority of the Pope was already both attested to and indeed actually put into practice by the Popes as the letter to the Corinthians shows. The Corinthians, moreover, considered the Pope's letter to be of Apostolic authority and treated it as being canonical; that is, on the same par as a letter from none other than an Apostle.

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  8. Oh, he's switched back to George. He's so crafty

    Eric

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  9. Anonymous:

    This seems obviously false. A materialist conceding that it's actually impossible to translate consciousness into physical processes would be affirming the very thing that many or most non-materialists are claiming, and a materialist who was an eliminativist would be affirming that there is nothing "impossible to translate" because there's nothing to translate after all.

    Not necessarily. They could affirm that consciousness is the same material process that neurobiology studies, but that they have no idea how to translate the language of consciousness into the language of material processes, even though they are fundamentally the same thing in reality. It would be like arguing that divine justice and divine mercy are one and the same, even though each has characteristics that cannot be translated into one another. For example, divine justice punishes whereas divine mercy forgives, and even though punishment is not forgiveness, they are remain one and the same in reality.

    Maybe what you mean isn't a materialist who concedes that it's impossible to translate consciousness into physical processes, but a materialist who concedes that they themselves see no way to translate consciousness into physical processes, but who nevertheless has faith that there is some way. I don't think that's of much help either, since one of the first options (repeated by A-T theorists even) is that our understanding of the "material", as told by the materialist, is wrong or incomplete. So even if there is a way for consciousness (qualia?) to "be" physical, the materialist would still be in a bind, because he has to defend his particular concept of the material too.

    I agree that a materialist’s conception of the material requires justification, and certainly what the materialist means by “matter” (i.e. mass and energy in space-time) is radically different from what A-T theorists mean by “matter” (i.e. the passive principle of individuation of particular material entities).

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  10. As far as the rest of the conversation goes, I think the materialist and the Catholic trinitarian are in very different situations. For the Catholic trinitarian, when all is said and done, it seems entirely acceptable to simply shrug one's shoulders, admit they do not understand all the details of the trinity and divine simplicity, and go on believing it. It is, after all, expressly called a mystery right from the get-go, and reason is bolstering the investment in revelation to begin with. The typical materialist has no revelation to cite as an authority, so mysteries aren't dealt with nearly as neatly - when a materialist decides to believe in and accept a mystery, they're on their own. Fideism is an option, but I think if the materialist is helping themselves to fideism, the scales couldn't be tipped more towards the Christian and non-materialist overall.

    First, I think that the materialist has the authority of the success of science to point to in justification of their belief that consciousness is fundamentally a material process, even if it is inconceivable at this time how this could be possible. And I also think that the materialist would have a stronger claim to authority in the success of science than a Trinitarian would have in terms of revelation. After all, how does one justify one’s particular revelation in opposition to all others? And how would that justification be stronger than the success of science?

    Second, I don’t think materialism requires the strong claim that it is inevitable that science will figure out how consciousness is a material process. It may well be impossible for human beings to figure it out, leaving it a mystery that is beyond human understanding.

    Third, it isn’t about not understanding the details, but about resolving a logical contradiction, at least if my argument is sound. I think that it is impossible to endorse divine simplicity and the Trinity simultaneously without there being a logical contradiction that requires the rejection of key Catholic claims. It is not the case that this is a matter of logical possibility, without a clear understanding of how things actually fit together, but rather that they cannot possibly fit together at all.

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  11. Delete these offensive comments, please. Crosses the line.

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  12. This "Classical" position seems to be the result of misguided piety: as if God were an existing thing or a person along with other persons this would be demeaning somehow, but this doesn't follow. Imagine you wanted to buy a diamond and you were trying to negotiate the price down. Would it work to put a dead beetle and a rotten egg next to the diamond and say, "the diamond is just one more object on the table next to these others, therefore it isn't worth as much"?

    And look at the results of this cold, theistic apersonal God. It's very similar to the Muslim conception of Allah, which is why you have a Muslim upthread praising this theology. At least it must be admitted that Christ was "a person" alongside other persons and "existed" alongside other existents.

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  13. >Here’s another way to think about it. Say that you have R. R is either simple or composite. If R is simple, then R has no parts, and if R is composite, then R has parts.

    I reply: You are a lying dishonest sack of crap it's already been explained to you after more than 1000 posts of you not listening to me that when we say God has no "parts"(a term you shamelessly use in an equivocal manner) and that God is "simple" we mean God not being material has no material divisions. Also that God being God there is only a notional distinction between his being and essence so He has no metaphysical parts.

    The rest of God's "parts" as you call them(i.e. the divine relations) do not cause composition here in either sense.

    You also reject mystery specifically the definition of mystery I tried in vain to get you to read from Sheed (& you ignored Feser's as well) & the definition of logical contradiction I repeated endlessly & you ignored.

    A contradiction between E, X, & R presupposes you clearly know what they all are by definition.

    So when you speak of God being made of matter and being pure Act & liken that to your bogus claims of "contradiction" in the Trinity that is just more bullshit(after having endured 1000 posts of it).

    We clearly know what matter is and it cannot be pure act.

    We don't know what God IS as God. We can know stuff about Him but we don't know what He is.

    So we can't know that saying God as God is both relative relations and absolute essence at the same time and in the same sense as God is any type of contradiction because we don't and can't know what God is.

    You don't want to discuss the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. You wish to discuss a doctrine you made up from scratch that no Christian here will recognize that is a clear contradiction.

    So what is the point of you?

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  14. >It goes wrong, because he confuses multiplicity with Trinity. I agree that if the Trinity simply said that there is a distinction between undivided divine persons, then my objection would utterly fail,

    Oh brother! How many times did I quote G-L saying the persons are undivided in essence but distinct person to person?

    You are a real piece of work dguller!

    >because one remains in the realm of transcendental multiplicity. But that leaves one completely unable to describe how many units there are in God,

    It is a mystery you can't know how many if any real relations there are in God without revelation. Another concept you reject.

    >because to specify a number of units in God would be to use the quantity of number, which necessarily means applying accidents to God,

    Bullshit! I can say divine will & divine goodness are two divine attributes and they don't suddenly morph into accidents!

    You don't even bother to look up what Aquinas and Aristotle meant by "number" you just used your own modern definition & read that back into the doctrine!

    >which is impossible. So, once you go beyond mere transcendental multiplicity, and posit a number of transcendental units, one has stepped into the impossible.

    If you actually read the other commentaries I pointed you too instead of pulling a book on mystical theology out of left field you would know when we say there is no counting in God we mean we are not counting physical divisions or metaphysical ones as we do in the created world.

    It doesn't mean we can say Will & Goodness two attributes or Father, Son and Holy Spirit three persons.

    I don't know why I bother? Oh I know why because I don't want anyone else here to get suckered in by you!

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  15. edit:t doesn't mean we can't say Will & Goodness are two divine attributes or Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons.

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  16. Muslims believe the incarnation is God changing his un-changable divine nature into a human one.

    I have personal experience with this. They also believe the terms "divine person" and "divine essence" are interchangable.
    So no matter how hard or patently you try to explain the Trinity to these idiots they find creative ways to re-interpret what you said to mean 3 persons in 1 person or 3 essence in 1 essence.

    Tedious!


    Modern Evangelicalism & Fundamentalism came into existence in the 19th century after splitting off liberal Protestantism.

    I can never be a Protestant for the simple fact their key doctrine Sola Scriptura (the bible alone) is taught nowhere in the Bible therefore false by it's own standards.

    If I only had a dime for every Baptist who challenged me to show him where the Bible literally & explicity says "Mary is sinless" but screamed bloody murder when I challenged him to cite a verse that says "Scripture is formally sufficient & the sole source of doctrine".

    The Bible condemns human traditions (like the Reformers teachings) but it does mandate Traditions of the Apostles (2 Thes 2:15, 3:6).

    I could never be a Protestant.

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  17. @Professor Feser

    I'm really sorry about all that. Got carried away!..
    For some reason I find it rather hard to discern a person's agenda on the Internet, that is, I can't really tell a troll from an honestly misguided person. I suppose the fact that I'm not a native speaker makes this problem worse.

    For quite some time now I've been thinking about starting up a blog about thomism - and scholasticism in general - in Russian, I wonder if it might be at all possible for you to consider allowing me to repost/quote some of your posts there translating them. I'm not quite sure about the idea, but..
    It's just that scholasticism is particularly seriously misunderstood in Russia, no native tradition of it ever developed here and from my experience both professional philosophers and students have a very vague idea of it paired with a mostly negative appraisal, based on catch-phrases of the Enlightened ones like Voltaire, or so it would seem.
    This attitude goes way back, but, well, back in the glorious Soviet times everyone had to study 'scientific communism', 'dialectical materialism' and 'historical materialism' to get a degree. So...

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  18. >A-T at its absolute best can help a person reason that there is a god. But even the DEMONS believe in God, and they are ALL damned to HELL. So I ask the A-T proponents, what they hope to get out of A-T? Eternal life? A girl-friend? etc.?

    Speaking for myself St. Thomas insights saved me from Atheism and solved the Problem of Evil for me in showing me that God is metaphysically & ontologically good but not a moral agent who owes me anything.

    I have three children with Autism and that is a trial I wouldn't even wish on dguller no matter how pissed at him I will be.

    It is a comfort to know that given what can be said about God according to Natural Theology He can't coherently be seen as something or someone who owes me anything but never the less still loves me infinitely.

    So I can't coherently blame him for allowing me to have autistic children & I am free to love him even more than I did when I thought in semi-Theistic Personalist catagories.

    If I believed in Protestant Theistic Personalism and God as a moral agent mishigoss. wasting my time with failed Theodicies I would be more of an unbeliever than djindra & three hundred times the jerk I already am.

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  19. @BenYachov:

    "Speaking for myself . . . "

    You may have missed this (or perhaps you didn't notice that "Fred" and "George" are the same poster), but Ed has requested that we refrain from feeding the troll.

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  20. @George and Anon

    >It is TRUE that sola scriptura is NOT in the Bible.

    Then no argument that begins with "the Papacy is unbiblical or the Assumption of Mary etc". can ever get off the ground with me.

    What do you got left? A baptized "burning in the bosom" pseudo-Mormon argument?

    Not interested.

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  21. Thanks Scott.

    I'll ignore Fred/George.

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  22. I'll say this much in rare praise of James White. He is the only Protestant I have ever read that made a logical case against the doctrine of the sacrifice of the Mass. I mean he did show me if the Calvinist doctrines of Limited Attonment and irresistible grace are true then the Catholic doctrine of the Mass as a re-presentation of Christ's once and fall all Sacrifice must be false.

    So if I was a schismatic Jancinist Old Catholic from the Netherlands I'd be in trouble. Yeh good luck convincing me the Calvinist view of Irresistible grace is true as well as the heresy of Limited Attonment.


    Virtually all Protestants and fundies misrepresent the doctrine of the Mass as a "re-sacrifice where Jesus dies again which is then added to the sacrifice of the Cross".

    Yeh that is not the doctrine genius!

    It's like reading dguller after 1000 posts equate beliving God is relative persons & absolute essence to be equal to believing God is Relative Persons and Absolute Person. Or Relative Essences and Absolute Essence. The later two being clear logical contradictions unlike the actual doctrine of the Trinity.

    I can't talk to people who refuse to get the doctrine straight.

    James White at least in this one single instant got the Mass correct as a representation of Christ's once and fall all sacrifice.

    But good luck convincing me to accept limited atonement and Calvin's view of irresistible grace.

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  23. One small comment to the troll. Just for sh**'s and giggles.

    There is a post Nestorian era story that Peter when to Mesopotamia but it doesn't go back any futher then the Nestorian schism.

    All the early writing like the chronicles of edessa, the Syriac Teachings of the Apostles etc say Peter and Paul met their end in Rome.

    Even in Medieval times a Chinese Nestorian noble visited Rome to venerate the resting places of Peter and Paul & the Pope graciously gave him communion.

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  24. dguller,

    Not necessarily. They could affirm that consciousness is the same material process that neurobiology studies, but that they have no idea how to translate the language of consciousness into the language of material processes, even though they are fundamentally the same thing in reality. It would be like arguing that divine justice and divine mercy are one and the same, even though each has characteristics that cannot be translated into one another.

    Like I said, there's a difference between affirming that there is nothing to translate, that translation is impossible, and that translation may be possible bit one has no idea how to manage it. The theist is not arguing that translation is impossible, only that they don't know the translation. The materialist is in a compromised position, since they need to affirm more than the possibility of a translation. They have to defend a translation while their view of the material remains unchanged.

    First, I think that the materialist has the authority of the success of science to point to in justification of their belief that consciousness is fundamentally a material process, even if it is inconceivable at this time how this could be possible. And I also think that the materialist would have a stronger claim to authority in the success of science than a Trinitarian would have in terms of revelation. After all, how does one justify one’s particular revelation in opposition to all others? And how would that justification be stronger than the success of science?

    This seems incorrect. First, there's the usual problem where science's success has been exclusively with explaining what is fundamentally third person, not first person phenomena. Second, science's explanations have been compatible with a wide variety of metaphysical views, from AT to panpsychism to idealism and more, so a scientific explanation is not in and of itself a materialist explanation. Third, even in terms of third persona phenomena, scientific advancement has required revisions to the very idea of what matter is, but "what matter is" is one of the things that the materialist needs to remain stable to justify their position. That makes the success of science literally harmful to the materialist's position.

    As for revelation: it's not justifying the revelation specifically that's required, but justifying the source of it. The Catholic has arguments and evidence that justify regarding the Church as an authoritative source. Now, there are replies to those arguments and evidence, and other faiths may have their own too, which is a whole other argument. But the typical materialist has no revelation or similar authority at all, and science actually gives them reason to doubt their position.

    (more)

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  25. Second, I don’t think materialism requires the strong claim that it is inevitable that science will figure out how consciousness is a material process.

    But I think I discussed the problem with this train of thought. There's not much reason to believe a resolution to the problem would be in the way the materialist wants, and science actually gives reason to doubt it would be resolved in so a way. I'll add, science has also hit inevitable walls, and certain phenomena has been declared to be fundamental. That's a live option with anything mental, but such a conclusion would be a refutation of materialism. Now, they can declare that they just have faith it will be solved. But fideism was supposed to be anathema to the materialist. If it's not, the game is over anyway.

    Third, it isn’t about not understanding the details, but about resolving a logical contradiction, at least if my argument is sound.

    I think it's at best an apparent logical contradiction, given hypothetical interpretation X. The problem is, the trinity is not a belief concluded from strict philosophical and logical argument. It's revelation, one that is explicitly acknowledged from the start to be a mystery that we do not understand. That's part of why a conversation about it doesn't necessarily follow the typical course. Normally, admitting that it's hard to see how a given claim can be true (or really, how to even understand a given claim) is a difficulty in and of itself. Here, it's being conceded before the conversation begins.

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  26. >I think it's at best an apparent logical contradiction, given hypothetical interpretation X. The problem is, the trinity is not a belief concluded from strict philosophical and logical argument. It's revelation, one that is explicitly acknowledged from the start to be a mystery that we do not understand.

    You are wasting your time Anon.

    dguller dogmatically believes the mystery of Trinity is the same as saying God is made of Matter and is Pure Act.

    He refuses to entertain the difference between a clear contradiction vs an apparent contradiction.

    You are wasting your time. He thinks the Trinity must be something argued for like the five ways not a prioro defined.

    You are not dealing with an honest person here.

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  27. BTW anon trinity defender.

    Another tactic besides ignoring mystery and the meaning of logical contradiction used by dguller is to claim the Trinity violates the Transitive principle of logic. a=b=c therefore a=c.

    Long story short using some sophistical word trickery he tries to argue that the transitive principle means relative persons somehow makes the absolute essence a relative essence. Or that the absolute essence makes the distinct but not seperate persons an absolute person.

    He has no intention of discussing the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity with you.

    He has made up his own doctrine which he calls the "Trinity" and equivocates between it and the actual doctrine.

    You have been warned.

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  28. @Anon Trinity def

    >That's part of why a conversation about it doesn't necessarily follow the typical course.

    It requires learning the Grammar of the Trinity.

    For example as Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O. P. said we can say the Father is God & the Trinity is God but we can't say the Father is the Trinity.

    >Normally, admitting that it's hard to see how a given claim can be true (or really, how to even understand a given claim) is a difficulty in and of itself. Here, it's being conceded before the conversation begins.

    But then again if your only understanding of Mystery is being asked to believe a clear un-ambiguous contradiction then you will be hitting your head against the wall.

    So unless you are talking to someone who applies the Thomistic and general Christian view of Mystery you are wasting your time casting pearls before swine.

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  29. George/Fred,

    Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough. Get lost. You are not welcome here. Any future comments from you in this thread, let lone future threads, will be deleted.

    Everyone else, stop feeding the damn troll, please.

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  30. Anonymous:

    Like I said, there's a difference between affirming that there is nothing to translate, that translation is impossible, and that translation may be possible bit one has no idea how to manage it. The theist is not arguing that translation is impossible, only that they don't know the translation. The materialist is in a compromised position, since they need to affirm more than the possibility of a translation. They have to defend a translation while their view of the material remains unchanged.

    Again, I don’t see how this is much different from the theist position. There is an answer to resolve the contradiction by virtue of a coherent transition between the contradictory propositions, but it occurs at a level of depth that is beyond human comprehension.

    Of course, this hinges upon the soundness of my argument that there is a contradiction between divine simplicity and the Trinity. If, in fact, there is a contradiction, then one must pay a terrible cost, no matter what. One must either reject a fundamental Christian doctrine to resolve the contradiction, or embrace the mystery, but then lose any ground to reject positions by reductio ad absurdum, because anyone can simply appeal to the same mystery as you just did.

    This seems incorrect. First, there's the usual problem where science's success has been exclusively with explaining what is fundamentally third person, not first person phenomena. Second, science's explanations have been compatible with a wide variety of metaphysical views, from AT to panpsychism to idealism and more, so a scientific explanation is not in and of itself a materialist explanation. Third, even in terms of third persona phenomena, scientific advancement has required revisions to the very idea of what matter is, but "what matter is" is one of the things that the materialist needs to remain stable to justify their position. That makes the success of science literally harmful to the materialist's position.

    Great response. I’ll happily concede the point here.

    As for revelation: it's not justifying the revelation specifically that's required, but justifying the source of it. The Catholic has arguments and evidence that justify regarding the Church as an authoritative source. Now, there are replies to those arguments and evidence, and other faiths may have their own too, which is a whole other argument. But the typical materialist has no revelation or similar authority at all, and science actually gives them reason to doubt their position.

    I don’t want to get too deep into this issue, but I wonder what criteria one uses to distinguish true revelation from false revelation? You mention “arguments and evidence”. If the same kind of arguments and evidence justify all revelations, then how does not differentiate between which revelation is valid and which is invalid?

    Furthermore, does revelation even require independent criteria? After all, that would put revelation under the purview of reason, which would put theology itself under the delimiting and controlling influence of human understanding, which would have a detrimental impact upon the inherent transcendent aspects of religions that are beyond reason and understanding.

    But these are secondary issues, I think, even though they are fascinating.

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  31. I think it's at best an apparent logical contradiction, given hypothetical interpretation X. The problem is, the trinity is not a belief concluded from strict philosophical and logical argument. It's revelation, one that is explicitly acknowledged from the start to be a mystery that we do not understand. That's part of why a conversation about it doesn't necessarily follow the typical course. Normally, admitting that it's hard to see how a given claim can be true (or really, how to even understand a given claim) is a difficulty in and of itself. Here, it's being conceded before the conversation begins.

    I really like Frank Sheed’s explanation of “mystery”. He writes that “the word does not mean a truth of which we cannot know anything: it means a truth of which we cannot know everything” (A Map of Life, [Ignatius: 1994], pp. 79-80) and that “[e]very mystery contains a central nucleus of truth that is comprehended, surrounded on all sides by things that we do not comprehend” (p. 82).

    My argument does not presuppose that we know everything about divine simplicity or the Trinity, but only that we know something about it, which makes my argument perfectly consistent with the inherent mystery involved in both doctrines. There are two things that we know for certain about these doctrines: first, that divine simplicity means that the divine essence cannot involve real distinction of any kind, and second, that the divine persons must involve real distinction of some kind. That is all we have to know about these doctrines for my argument for work, I think.

    The divine persons must be really distinct from one another, and their real distinction cannot originate in the divine essence, which is formally and numerically identical in each divine person. And that means that the differentiating factor that distinguishes the divine persons from one another cannot originate in the divine essence, but rather must originate in other than the divine essence. As Gilles Emery writes in The Trinitarian Theology of St Thomas Aquinas (Oxford: 2010): “St Thomas rigorously forbids us to conceive the personal plurality as if it were a derivative of the divine essence: this leads to Sabellianism” (p. 122). He also says that the “alterity of persons [is] based on a relation-distinction, but not an alterity of essence, nature or substance” (p. 133), and that “the essence does no engendering” (p. 148). Thus, the source or origin of the distinction between the persons cannot possibly be due to the divine essence.

    We can call this differentiating factor X, and distinguish it from the divine essence E. The next question is whether X and E are one and the same in reality in the same way that the divine attributes are one and the same in reality, but only differ in how they present themselves to our minds, i.e. are notionally distinct from one another. And we have only two possibilities:

    (1) X and E are one and the same in reality
    (2) X and E are not one and the same in reality

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  32. If (1) is true, then you have a logical contradiction, because E involves no real distinction of any kind, and X involves real distinction of some kind. If X and E have the exact same referent in reality, which we can call R, then R both involves real distinction and does not involve real distinction. Unless you can somehow segregate the contradictory properties into different parts of R, then you have a contradiction. The only resolution is to reject either divine simplicity or the Trinity, which is unacceptable to the Trinitarian, and thus one must reject (1) as false.

    If (2) is true, then you actually have two distinct referents for E and X, which we can call R1 and R2, respectively. In this case, R1 is Being Itself, because the divine essence is Being Itself, and R2 is a creature, because anything that is not Being Itself depends upon Being Itself for its existence, and thus is a creature. But that leads to the absurdity that the divine persons did not exist before creation, which would falsify the Trinity, if divine simplicity is true. Thus, one must reject (2), as well.

    And since (1) and (2) are mutually exclusive, then rejecting (1) and (2) logically implies accepting (1) and (2) simultaneously, which is logically impossible.

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  33. dguller,

    Again, I don’t see how this is much different from the theist position.

    I think I've already explained why, but I'll try again in a simplified way: for the trinitarian theist, all that's needed is the possibility of a translation, they know not what. For the materialist, that's not enough, because the possible translations may upend their materialism.

    One must either reject a fundamental Christian doctrine to resolve the contradiction, or embrace the mystery, but then lose any ground to reject positions by reductio ad absurdum, because anyone can simply appeal to the same mystery as you just did.

    I think 'embracing the mystery' is actually the orthodox position. But it's not an embrace of any reductio necessarily: it can be an embrace of being uninformed about the subject to the point where no relevant reductio is applying. Now, the Christian does have to make an appeal to some revelation of some kind, but this move is not open to the typical materialist.

    Great response. I’ll happily concede the point here.

    Behold, the rarest words on all the internet.

    I don’t want to get too deep into this issue, but I wonder what criteria one uses to distinguish true revelation from false revelation?

    Again, it's not distinguishing true revelation from false revelation, but discerning an adequate giver of revelation. To use a very, very loose example: I don't need to know accurate physics from inaccurate to possibly and reasonably discern that person X is teaching accurate physics. I can get by by checking his credentials. He has a PhD from this university in this program? Then it's arguably reasonable to accept him.

    My argument does not presuppose that we know everything about divine simplicity or the Trinity, but only that we know something about it,

    And it's possible you presuppose too much, or that we don't sufficiently understand what you presuppose, or...

    That's why I think this argument is quixotic. You're picking a teaching that is expressly acknowledged and embraced as a mystery. You can argue against attempted justifications or arguments or concrete and fleshed out conceptions of the mystery, but that's not what you're really after. You're after the mystery itself.

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  34. Anonymous:

    I think I've already explained why, but I'll try again in a simplified way: for the trinitarian theist, all that's needed is the possibility of a translation, they know not what. For the materialist, that's not enough, because the possible translations may upend their materialism.


    But where does the theist get the guarantee that a translation is possible? Only from revelation, which is where they get the potentially contradictory doctrines to begin with. So, we are back to justifying the authority of a particular revelation, which can only be done with some kind of criteria. What could that criteria be?

    Again, it's not distinguishing true revelation from false revelation, but discerning an adequate giver of revelation. To use a very, very loose example: I don't need to know accurate physics from inaccurate to possibly and reasonably discern that person X is teaching accurate physics. I can get by by checking his credentials. He has a PhD from this university in this program? Then it's arguably reasonable to accept him.

    But “discerning an adequate giver of revelation” is an essential part of “distinguishing true revelation from false revelation”. After all, if a revelation is determined not to come from “an adequate giver of revelation”, then it is necessarily a false revelation.

    And your analogy does not entirely work, because you have to make sure that the source of his credentials is itself trustworthy. Who says he has such and such credentials? Just him? Why should you believe him, unless you already trust him? He could be lying after all. Furthermore, how exactly does one discover the proper credentials of God within a revelation? Again, what is the criteria that one uses to determine whether a revelation is (a) actually from God, and (b) not misinterpreted by man?

    That's why I think this argument is quixotic. You're picking a teaching that is expressly acknowledged and embraced as a mystery. You can argue against attempted justifications or arguments or concrete and fleshed out conceptions of the mystery, but that's not what you're really after. You're after the mystery itself.

    First, I’m not refuting the Trinity per se, but only arguing that divine simplicity contradicts the Trinity, particularly as both doctrines are understood in Thomism. Certainly, if someone accepts the Trinity but rejects divine simplicity, then my argument won’t work against that position. And if one rejects Thomism altogether, or at least those aspects of Thomism that are involved in my argument, then my argument fails against that kind of Trinity, as well.

    Second, as Sheed has written, a mystery is not something that we know nothing about. We know something about it, and if the something that we know is logically contradictory, then that’s the end of that. You must reject one of the premises that led to the contradiction, if the argument is valid. Appealing to something hidden that could resolve the logical contradiction doesn’t work, because (a) that appeal is only as strong as the authority that it is based upon, and (b) the hidden part of the mystery could only help determine which premise to reject, but cannot undermine the soundness of the logical argument itself.

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  35. Will Dunkirk,

    The events of the Great Schism are complex, but I think we can that those of 1054 are not the primary cause of the division, though they no doubt contributed. It was a long process.

    I do not think the Pope's role in the early church was necessary simply honorific, but I see little evidence that the Pope had the sort of power that he later claimed, and I'm not sure the evidence you quote shows that. It doesn't show that the Pope was treated as infallible and, more importantly, I don't think it shows that other bishops and Patriarchs treated the bishop of Rome as a direct superior in the sense that a priest would treat his bishop.

    During the first millenium many doctrinal controversies and other issues were settled without appealing to the authority of the Pope as it was later wielded. Councils were called -often not by the Pope - or the Emperor might intervene, but even the orthodox (small o) did not simply recognise the authority of the Pope as final or as the natural arbiter of conflicts in the Church, although they usually showed a great respect for it. There was certainly no question of Pope's deposing Patriarchs or excommunicating them.

    St. Clement of Rome is an Apostolic Father. This would be one reason his opinion might be especially sought, as, no doubt, would his undoubted wisdom and piety.

    I very much recommend Philip Sherrard's The Greek East and Latin West as a balanced but, I think, ultimately accurate portrayal of Eastern and Western Christianity and the cause of the Schism.

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  36. dguller,

    But where does the theist get the guarantee that a translation is possible? Only from revelation, which is where they get the potentially contradictory doctrines to begin with. So, we are back to justifying the authority of a particular revelation, which can only be done with some kind of criteria.

    I think this is mistaken. The 'guarantee' that a translation is possible comes from the authority of the source of the revelation, not from the revelation itself. You're trying to make sense of and justify a revelation that is held to be mysterious from its initial communication, but confidence in the revelation doesn't come from the revelation itself.

    But “discerning an adequate giver of revelation” is an essential part of “distinguishing true revelation from false revelation”.

    I don't see how that's problematic at all.

    And your analogy does not entirely work, because you have to make sure that the source of his credentials is itself trustworthy. Who says he has such and such credentials? Just him? Why should you believe him, unless you already trust him?

    As I said, it's a loose analogy, but I think it gets the job done. You can argue all the way to solipsism if you want, but I think most people will concede it's possible to, within reason, investigate an authority and come to a conclusion to place your trust in them, even if you may be wrong.

    First, I’m not refuting the Trinity per se,

    Second, as Sheed has written, a mystery is not something that we know nothing about. We know something about it, and if the something that we know is logically contradictory

    My reply is the same in this case. The 'something' you need to know in order to begin building any case for logical contradiction (or, for that matter, logical consistency) is itself subject to being part of the mystery, in whole or part.

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  37. I'm not sure how many readers of this blog are aware of this, but Fred and George were a pair of identical twins in the Harry Potter Series, and were both main characters in the series.

    They were known for being very mischievous and hard for the teachers to deal with...

    So I enjoy the irony of it.

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  38. @ Feser et al.

    Thanks for confirming my decision to leave the Catholic church.

    It is clear that you can dish it out, but you cannot take it. The atheists will listen to you even less now.

    As my Catholic math professor once said."Philosophy is for those that cannot do a hard science or mathematics". I think he was correct, because I am not convinced the philosophers on this blog can actually reason logically.

    So as the Bible says in Proverbs 31:6, "Let beer be for those who are perishing, wine for those who are in anguish!" So enjoy your beer, strong alcoholic beverages , and stogies because life is destined for much misery if your an A-T philosopher.

    Remember when Cardinal Newman is made a saint that he was an effeminate man and the Bible says they don't enter the kingdom of God.

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  39. @Anon Trinity defender

    Some observations with your conversation with a certain ex-Muslim Atheist.

    First let me just say I have no respect for moral dirtbags who insist on redefining our general Christian doctrines or Theology to mean something other than what we have always understood them to mean. I am sure you agree in principle even if you lack my hostility.

    I don't care if James White disbelieves in the doctrine of the Sacrifice of the Mass because it runs a fowl with his Calvinist doctrines of Irresistible Grace(not to be equated with the Thomist view) & limited atonement. Indeed I can say at least in that one instant he seems to understand what he disbelieves in(not that he understands other Catholic doctrines by a long shot. But I will praise the good when I see it). But following pisses me off.

    The Mass is defined by Councils, Popes and Theology manuals as a re-presentation of Christ's once and for all sacrifice on calvary that makes that Sacrifice of Calvary present in a mysterious sacramental way.

    Any dirtbag who insists the above definition really means "Christ is re-sacrificed and dies again & that death is added to Calvary" needs to f*** off big time because he is wasting our time.

    That later is not the doctrine of the sacrifice of the Mass any refusal to admit that is nothing but a straw man & the person in question is not discussing the doctrine in good faith.

    In a like manner:

    >There are two things that we know for certain about these doctrines: first, that divine simplicity means that the divine essence cannot involve real distinction of any kind,

    i reply: That is 100% false the divine simplicity means that the divine essence cannot involve any real physical distinction or real metaphysical distinction of any kind subsisting in it. If absolutely no kind of real distinction can be found subsisting in the divine essence(that is by definition neither a real physical or metaphysical one) then you are A Priori defining the Trinity is impossible or a contradiction and you are doing this by changing the actual doctrine's content to other then what is believed by Christians. So you are arguing a straw man! This subtle truth is lost on certain suborn ex-Muslim assholes.

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  40. >The divine persons must be really distinct from one another, and their real distinction cannot originate in the divine essence, which is formally and numerically identical in each divine person.

    According to Ludwig Von Ott the following is an infallible Catholic Dogma: The [divine]Relations in God are really identical with the Divine Nature[essence]. (De fide.)

    Also :The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense). (De fide.)

    The Persons are really distinct one to another as persons not in essence.. Whatever the real distinction is (& it is a mystery) it is not any type of real physical or metaphysical distinction in the essence nor does it manifest itself as subsisting in anyway outside the Godhead.

    Anyone who denies what I wrote above isn't interesting in discussing the doctrine of Trinity but some other doctrine he made up out of his head.

    >I really like Frank Sheed’s explanation of “mystery”. He writes that “the word does not mean a truth of which we cannot know anything: it means a truth of which we cannot know everything” (A Map of Life, [Ignatius: 1994], pp. 79-80) and that “[e]very mystery contains a central nucleus of truth that is comprehended, surrounded on all sides by things that we do not comprehend” (p. 82).


    Also from the same book QUOTE"For the mind to proceed from the affirmation that it cannot reconcile two statements to the affirmation that they are in contradiction is legitimate only on one condition: that both are fully understood. If two statements are fully comprehended and yet cannot be reconciled, then there is real contradiction and one of them must be false. But in these mysteries of religion, it soon becomes clear that the truths concerned plunge rapidly into depths where the mind cannot follow them."END QUOTE

    Do we fully understand what God is as God? If we say God is Relative Persons subsisting in Absolute Essence or God is Absolute Essence subsisting in Relative Persons do we know what the reality of being God is to claim we have a clearly understood contradiction? I don't see how?

    Is the above the same as saying as one dirtbag ex-Muslim Atheist put it,God is pure act and also made of matter? No it is not. Don't we have a clear enough understanding of what matter is in either the AT sense or the Scientific sense to know neither can be said to be pure act without contradiction? Yes we do.

    >If (1) is true, then you have a logical contradiction, because E involves no real distinction of any kind,

    I reply:Except E isn't the doctrine of the divine simplicity. Divine simplicity doesn't mean there is no real distinction of any kind only that there is no real physical or metaphysical distinction of any kind. A real distinction that is a mystery in the sense talked about by Sheed doesn't create a logical contradiction.

    It's sad certain assholes who have had this pointed out to them over & over like to pretend it wasn't.
    But then again they won't ever succeed in convincing any Trinitarian here that there is logical contradiction in the doctrine. Thought they might prey on the theologically & philosophically ignorant and illiterate.

    Why they insist on doing that is a mystery to me?

    You have been warned.

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  41. >First, I’m not refuting the Trinity per se,

    Actually he is not discussing the Trinity at all or the Catholic Doctrine of the Divine Simplicity.

    He is wasting your time on bullshit.

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  42. @Timotheos

    " I'm not sure how many readers of this blog are aware of this, but Fred and George were a pair of identical twins in the Harry Potter Series, and were both main characters in the series."

    Ha ha ha. He's also posted anonymously. So I think the connection with "He who must not be named" could also be made.

    Eric

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  43. In response to the quality of Fred/George/Anon's posts, I offer this video response.

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  44. @Brandon

    I like what you have written especially about "total identity" and modal logic not to be confused with the Modalism heresy.

    But can you believe this shit?

    >Appealing to something hidden that could resolve the logical contradiction doesn’t work.

    Yet Sheed clearly said "If two statements are fully comprehended and yet cannot be reconciled, then there is real contradiction and one of them must be false."

    Something hidden is something not fully comprehended so no actual logical contradiction can be proved!

    > because (a) that appeal is only as strong as the authority that it is based upon,

    Bullshit there is no reason why I can't say there is no Triune God but the Doctrine of the Trinity properly understood contains no logical contradiction.

    Authority has nothing to do with it. Reject the NT. Reject private revelation. Reject the doctrine of the Sacrifice of the Mass. But misrepresent one & straw man argue it you have zero respect from moi.

    >and (b) the hidden part of the mystery could only help determine which premise to reject, but cannot undermine the soundness of the logical argument itself.

    The issue is this mythical claim to a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity & or equally mythical claim Aquinas explanations on divine simplicity create a logical contradiction with his formulations of the doctrine of the Trinity.

    How do you have a conversation with a jerk who insists you believe in "A" when you really believe in "Not A" & keeps twisting your words and equivocating all over the place to claim that you really believe A?

    WTF!!!!

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  45. @ Will Dunkirk
    Thank you for taking the time to list all this and correcting me!
    The matter is, of course, complex, I had to oversimplify a bit.

    @ Jeremy Taylor
    Sorry for misspeling your name earlier.
    I do realise this is a most controversial topic, given that the controversy is now almost millennium-old. Sorry if what I wrote was in any way offensive. As is now evident, my prudence failed me. I'm in no way anti-Eastern Orthodox, though I obviously think Rome' s in the right.

    I wanted to make these points because quite a lot of fundamentalists on the Internet – like our dear friend (pope) George/Fred/Gerald here - use the very fact of schism between East and West, typically missing the point, naturally, to claim illegitimacy of both communions and all orthodox teaching, including the very concept of the Church being visible. We have to take this seriously, though, as schism is, of course, scandalous, and if this issue really is insuperable, as they seem to presuppose, they might have a point. It is not, and they don’t, thanks be to God.

    As Will already noted, there are very good reasons to regard the concept of the Pope possessing merely primacy of honour as at least somewhat anachronistic.

    For example, Pope St. Hadrian’s letter to the Council of Nicea: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvi.vi.html

    (I’m actually looking from a more complete version of the text, but I only have a reference to it in Russian, so I’ll keep looking)

    Please note that the saint is quite explicit about his understanding of his authority and patriarch Tarasius’ reply.
    If this was indeed a novelty, a heresy or abuse a Council of mostly Eastern attendance surely would condemn him, anathematise the Pope?.. And yet no such thing happened.

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  46. @Brandon

    > real distinction is I think a stronger grounds than trying to pull it directly from questions about identity. As a first point, however, real distinction can only violate simplicity if things distinguished by a real distinction can only be one by aggregation or composition. But it's not at all obvious that this is the case.

    Well what is obvious is that the whole of authoritative Christian Tradition & accepted doctrine with one voice East and West does not understand the real distinction between the divine persons to be any type of real physical or metaphysical distinction in essence.

    God is not material so Father, Son and Holy Ghost don't each take up 33% of the Divine Nature. That is incoherent. Also the Persons are really distinct from one to another but not separate & One Person always contains the other two and they each possess the whole of the Absolute Divine Essence. God is not metaphysically composite so it is not clear how the real divine relations cause God to have a real distinction between his Existence and Essence.

    >Aquinas himself considers your numerical argument. He denies that the numerical terms are taken in a quantitative sense; they simply indicate distinction or lack thereof. Where do you think his response goes wrong?

    Yeh your boy here equivocates this to mean you can't say there are "three" persons because somehow saying "three persons" is a quantitative statement. He sometimes takes it to an extreme and says you can't say the Divine Will or the Divine Perfection are two of God's attributes & sometimes he backflips. He seems to confuse quantitative statements with mere counting. I can really count backwards 5 numbers from 3 to -2 but of course in Aquinas understanding of numbers -2 isn't really a number since there can't be such a thing as two less than nothing. A number is something that corresponds to a physically real thing according to some interpreters of Aristotle & Aquinas Since God is not physical he can't contain real numbers and thus quantitative statements. In the Trinity You don't count the One by the three's or the three's by the one.

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  47. @dguller:

    "If E and X are really one and the same R in reality in this sense, then you have a logical contradiction, because R cannot simultaneously be really distinct in some way and not really distinct in any way."

    This is beside the point. As I understand it, the doctrine of divine simplicity doesn't hold that there are no real distinctions in God at all—just ones that don't introduce any divisions in the unity of the divine essence. (See 253-255 here.)

    As BenYachov says, the claim is that these distinctions are real without being physical or metaphysical. And if there's a bit of a mystery as to just what sort of real distinctions they therefore are—well, yeah, that's pretty much the point, isn't it?

    In other words, in order to show an actual conflict between the two doctrines in question, you'd have to show that there can't be any such real distinctions—that the very concept involves a contradiction. I don't think you've done that, and I don't think you can do that.

    I also think the point at which your argument fails is here:

    "Thus, the source or origin of the distinction between the persons cannot possibly be due to the divine essence.

    We can call this differentiating factor X, and distinguish it from the divine essence E."

    According to Trinitarian doctrine as I understand it, we can do no such thing: the relations between the persons are supposed to be the basis for the distinction, and each relation is also itself supposed to be the (full) divine essence. So that's a third alternative that your argument doesn't consider: that there's no "engendering" being done by the divine essence, but that the differentiating factor also isn't distinguishable from the divine essence but just is the divine essence.

    However difficult (or impossible) that may be to conceive, there's no contradiction in it as far as I can see—and the fact that it's not possible to conceive it is the entire point of treating it as a mystery (revealed, not directly understood, and to be accepted by faith on the authority of revelation).

    As one of the Anons says, that mystery is what you're after here. But in trying to conceive it, what you're actually demonstrating is that there's a contradiction between two doctrines that the Catholic Church doesn't hold.

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  48. *continued*

    Apologies in advance if the following is going to sound a bit goofy, please do believe me, I actually had to talk it through. With myself.

    The closest thing I can think of that can serve as a silver bullet is the question of the Councils and their validity. You correctly note that the Orthodox believe the Pope to be in error and heresy. Surely you will agree that to declare something an error would entail an appeal to truth. So what makes one a heretic? His heresy, "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas” (ST II-II:11:1). I believe St. Thomas’ definition to be uncontroversial. And what makes an orthodox Christian orthodox? His orhodox faith. But what precisely makes faith orthodox?

    It is my impression that the Orthodox prefer not to use the term ‘infallibility’, but please forgive me, as I hope the term will be vindicated with a clarification.
    It is my understanding the Orthodox certainly accept the concept behind the term, it appears, and rightly so, justly condemning Arians, Nestorians, Monophysites, Iconoclasts etc. These heresies were condemned by Ecumenical Councils, the first seven of which the East certainly upholds, the Orthodox do believe these to be, for the lack of a better term, infallible enough to enable us to recognise these ‘opinions’ as heretical, and doctrines defined by the Councils are orthodox. But what councils are to be considered Ecumenical and (therefore) binding?.. The famous Second Council of Ephesus, or Robber Council, a name aptly coined by Pope St. Leo I, a saint venerated by both East and West (nota bene: and a champion of Papal primacy). It was certainly intended as Ecumenical, and it ended up trying to reverse the teaching of the First Council of Ephesus, which condemned Monophysitism. If both these Councils are valid Councils (as they seem to be), it would follow that the Church dogmatically and solemnly taught error, and the gates of Hell did in fact prevail. It would not do to claim that if it repudiated a previous Council it’s not ecumenical, as there’s no reason to deny the Robber Council at least it’s ‘initial ecumenicity’. It would be prudent to note there were, say, no quorum requirements: the first Ecumenical Council – the first Council of Nicea was attended by about 300 people, with only 5 people representing the West, Ephesus I had 200-250, Constantinople II – 15o, and the number of people signing each document could actually vary substantially.

    Then again, there’s the Rock of Peter. The reason why both Catholic and Orthodox reject Ephesus II is precisely because it was denied validity by the Papal legate present there, future Pope St. Hilarius, and his judgement was later confirmed by Pope St. Leo I. The Catholic criterion for determining the validity of a Council is very simple – it’s ratification by the Pope (the scope of Council’s acceptance by the Pope depending on the scope of his approval), and is entirely objective. But, obviously, the Orthodox cannot accept this, as it would appear to make condemning Catholic teaching as erroneous /heretical simply because it’s not taught in the East impossible. There is a later theory among the Eastern Orthodox called receptionism, which states that in order for a Council to be considered Ecumenical and binding it has to be received by the body of orthodox faithful. The historical example of that would be the repudiation of the Council of Florence by the Eastern bishops upon their return to Byzantium. But it isn’t it circular reasoning? The teaching is orthodox because it is believed by the orthodox?

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  49. Thank you Scott.

    I believe there is not a single Christian Trinitarian of either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox origin (& Protestants who accept the Divine Simplicity and the Trinity) here on this blog who will recognize anything dguller says about what he calls the doctrine of the "Trinity" is in fact the actual doctrine any of them have ever been taught to believe.

    You can't make a Straw man argument and ever be taken seriously.

    I don't agree at all with the general reformation Protestant doctrine of justification but I would consider it a slander of them for any Catholic to claim Sola Fide doctrine means good works are absolutely not at all important.

    Sola Fide Protestants actually do believe good works are necessary to show you have real Faith which alone justifies you. They don't believe in what we Catholic call Salutary Acts(i.e. good works produced by Grace in a believer that along with saving Faith justify you).

    But it is a misrepresentation to claim they believe good works are not important at all.

    I have learned the hard way not to waste their time arguing they really do believe that.

    Just as it's a waste of time to talk to the rest of us about a doctrine of divine simplicity that says there absolutely no real distinctions of any kind in God.

    But some people want to waste time rather then learn.

    Anyway thanks again Scott.

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  50. I fail to see who the Orthodox can be said to have a legitimate reason to recognise the first seven (and some think there are nine) Councils and deny validity of the Councils recognised by the Catholic Church? Why are they not valid Councils?.. Surely not because of representation, especially given schism (and quorum not being a necessary (though welcome) condition), etc. So are Catholic in fact heretics and schismatics? If so, why? And how can it be established?

    Concerning your comments regarding ecclesiastical organization, I have to confess I doubt autocephaly is that much (or at all) closer to the early Church, especially given its remarkable abscense in the writings Church Fathers such as St. Cyprian.

    But we should differentiate between Papal Primacy and, say, the Bishop of Rome appointing every bishop: these particular details of Church governance can be different, as is the case with Eastern Catholic Churches, which retain, for example, the practice of electing patriarchs per Code of Canons of Oriental Churches (autocephaly, of course, is much more than that). Although these questions really are important, these are not essential to the question of Papal Primacy.

    What we do know is that the organisation of the Early Church was based on apostolic tradition, not political considerations, which ultimately lie behind the ascendancy of the See of Constantinople above the old traditional sees like that of Antioch. The mysterious 28th canon of the Council of Chalcedon, adopted in the absence of the papal legates and never ratified (and protested) by Rome, tried to stipulate – rather slyly, in my opinion, since in a way they actually are appealing to Rome – that New Rome enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, as if the principle behind the primacy of Petrine See had anything to do with Rome being an old imperial capital. I consider this a definite innovation.

    P.S.
    Here’s an early example of a Pope deposing a patriarch: Pope St. Agapetus 536 AD deposed Patriarch Anthimus of Constantinople, a Miaphysite. And of an excommunication: in 484 AD Pope St. Felix III (venerated in the East as well as in the West)both deposed and excommunicated Patriarch Acacius of Constantinople for comprimising the Faith by promulgating the Henotikon, a formula sponsored by the Emperor to reconcile the miaphysite provinces of Byzantium. Acacius disobeyed, iniating the Acacian Schism, which lasted for 35 years.

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  51. @Dude with the name spelled in Cyrillic letters I can't copy paste talking about some of the weakness in the Eastern Orthodox view.

    You are a Russian Eastern Rite Catholic?

    Yes?

    Ah the last time I was in one sadly was before I had children & it was on the day Lady Di was killed.

    There was this British dude there who put the name Diana on the roles for the Prayer for the dead. At the time I didn't make the conection since I only heard she died late in the day.

    Interesting times......

    Anyway good job.

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  52. @BenYachov

    So sorry about the alphabet.
    I did in fact change the name in my email profile, but for some reason it's still here. Well, it's not that bad, is it?..

    Thank you for your kind words!

    I'm attending RCIA here in Moscow now, parishes being overwhelmingly Latin rite. Although quite a lot of converts are of Orthodox background, they choose to go Latin, a thing made rather easy by Rome, since they grant permission to do so almost automatically. I had my doubts about it, but the attitude towards Eastern Rite Catholics (mostly known by a pejorative - 'uniate'), especially Ukrainians, is probably worse than towards Latins. Worse still, the Church here has to face charges of 'proselytism' - as if it's a bad thing, they are bogus, anyway, as Russia is largely atheist or nominally religious, (plenty of room, eh?..) though there are Orthodox converts - and invading canonical territory. Actually, I think some cardinal even apologised.. Ah, well.

    I considered going Eastern, but I wasn't even baptised as a kid, and I don't have a 'domestic church', so this Easter I'm going to become, God willing, well, yeah, a very joyous Russian Latin rite Catholic.

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  53. @Hey Cyrillic Dude! My Brother!

    You can join the Latin Rite if you want or any rite as a non-Baptized convert.

    Eastern Orthodox are usually encouraged to join the corresponding Eastern Catholic rite. But of course any Catholic of any rite can attend any Catholic Mass of any rite.

    The only disposition is you respect the tradition, law and customs of the rite of the liturgy you are attending.

    My older cousin who is like a Big Brother to me recently received permission from his bishop to do what I have often talked about for years but never did. He formally joined the Ukrainian Rite from the Latin.

    He is happier then a bug in borsch!


    It's all good bro! Peace!

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  54. Edward Feser: Any future comments from you in this thread, let lone future threads, will be deleted.

    I hope you consider deleting some of BenYachov's rantings as well. Shouting at trolls is bad enough, but his latest compulsion seems to be tossing obscenities at the always-polite Dguller. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is finding it tiresome.

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  55. Timotheos: Fred and George were a pair of identical twins in the Harry Potter Series

    Thanks, I didn't know that. In fact, at first I reckoned Anonymous George was just a bit tapped, with the conspiracy theories and all. Of course, the bit about "effeminate German" did make me question my initial evaluation. (I mean, anyone who knows German or has even seen any films about WWII knows that at its most effeminate, German is still butcher than most other languages! And as an accomplished butcher of foreign tongues, I should know!)

    Then there was the article (from Weni Widi Wikipedia, natch) announcing the Fallacy of Invincible Ignorance. (Betcha didn't know I.I. was a fallacy, but it is! ... if you misuse "fallacy", "invincible", and possibly "ignorance".) If a real troll hadn't put that page to good(?) use, it would be necessary to invent him. So choosing mischievous namesakes shows an amusing self-awareness. Carried out over three or four posts instead of thirty or forty, it would have been quite funny.

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  56. @BenYachov

    Yay!

    All things considered, I'm just too grateful to Latin tradition for everything I've learnt from it.

    Russia is sadly somewhat plagued with ethnophiletism(?), as Orthodoxy is a crucial part of Russian identity, which itself is understandable and not at all a bad thing. Most people (even some Catholics) refer to Catholic church buildings as 'kostiol', which is derived from a Polish word for 'Church' (koscioł), as traditionally Catholic groups in Russia are Poles, Germans (settlers and exiles) and various Eastern Rites (including Armenians, who celebrate their beautiful Liturgy every Sunday at our most splendid Cathedral: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_the_Immaculate_Conception_(Moscow))
    However, the Church in Russia is overcoming the public image of an ethnic minority church, as most Catholics are Russian culturally.
    ...I probably should stop saying all that.

    I'm very happy for your cousin!

    P.S.
    You probably shouldn't be so hard on dguller. Just saying.

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  57. >I hope you consider deleting some of BenYachov's rantings as well. Shouting at trolls is bad enough, but his latest compulsion seems to be tossing obscenities at the always-polite Dguller. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is finding it tiresome.

    You are just pissed because I yelled at you one of the last times he & I went at it. For what I barely remember & maybe I was wrong to do that to you since you where sort of my ally.

    Oh, who am I kidding I overeacted when I bit your head off Green. I am sorry for that.

    But I don't apologize to dguller. He goes out of his way to misrepresent the doctrine of the Trinity. You ought to know since you argued with one of his troll partisans the first time around who misrepresent the doctrine of the Trinity repeatedly.

    I don't care how "polite" dguller is there is no excuse for willfully misrepresenting the Trinity & arguing a straw man. There is no excuse for blowing off every Christian here who has told him he is arguing a straw man. It just comes off as arrogant & sicking.

    You know Green that he does this. You know he repeats the same arguments he has been corrected on over & over & ignores his opponents. You know his critique is nothing but a straw man & has no value as an argument against the truth of the doctrine. Also he needs the last word so he can repeat his nonsense and pretend he wasn't answered.

    He doesn't argue to convince he tried to tire you out.
    That is not the behavior of someone interested in truth.

    Even guys like David M who started polite & friendly with him where driven by his straw man nonsense to anger.

    You also know what Scott said October 9, 2013 at 8:25 PM is dead on.

    Why should I be "polite" to the likes of him when I regard willfully misrepresenting Catholic/Christian doctrine to be the height of rudeness?

    Either argue what I believe not what you wish I believed or go home!

    It's Feser's blog & if I it where mine dguller wouldn't be allowed to argue the Trinity till he learned the actual doctrine & not his straw man.

    But i am not the boss here & I am not making any demands.

    I can defend myself.

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  58. >P.S.
    You probably shouldn't be so hard on dguller. Just saying.

    I'm bitter because I used to think of him as a friend and I admired him & sung his praises across the net.

    I thought I could have a dialog with him at some point.

    Now I realize he just wants the last word.

    If you want to be of service to him I might suggest you affirm his whole argument of "logical contradiction" in the Trinity is a pure Straw man.

    Maybe if enough people tell him that he might wake up!

    My prediction he will likely respond with 20 posts arguing that divine simplicity really means there is absolutely no real relations of any kind in God.

    Which Scott has pointed out with me is a straw man.

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  59. @Ben Yachov, Did you really have to insulut dguller that way to get ur point across. Look at the way Brandon and Scott have been responding, and show some Christian charity for a change. Yeah those points might be obvious to you but some people may need things r clarified 10,000 ttimes + a good amount of grace to see what you see. I quite frankly am disgusted by way you've treated him. you are scandaliziing people unnecessarily.

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  60. @Tap

    >Ben Yachov, Did you really have to insulut dguller that way to get ur point across.

    I don't know what else to do? I tried being nice long ago but he blew my arguments off, ignored them, repeated himself & even called me irrational for believing in the Trinity when we first argued this.


    >Look at the way Brandon and Scott have been responding, and show some Christian charity for a change.

    They are better people than me. I don't deny it & I am not being sarcastic here either.

    But even Brandon said dguller "doesn't even remotely make any sense whatsoever". I am not the only person who notices he is being obtuse.

    Maybe I should be more charitable? But I have a thin temper & I don't appreciate people who argue in bad faith with me. It offends my sense of justice.

    >Yeah those points might be obvious to you but some people may need things r clarified 10,000 ttimes + a good amount of grace to see what you see.

    It might require Grace to believe a Triune God exists but natural logic can employ the principle of contradiction & even an Atheist can admit no contradiction exists.

    >I quite frankly am disgusted by way you've treated him. you are scandaliziing people unnecessarily.

    Put your money where your mouth is my friend. You try arguing the Trinity with him then & show some of this heroic patience u require of me . Warning 90% of your work will be correcting his misrepresentation of the relavent doctrines & straw maning & he will not accept correction.

    Go for it.

    Technically you are correct I am sailing close to the dark side here. So I will try to tone it down.

    But I cannot respect dguller. I'll respect James White first for at least portraying the Sacrifice of the Mass correctly before I respect dguller. Of course good luck getting me to believe in Limited Atonement or Calvinist irresistible grace.

    But dguller has yet to portray the doctrine of the Trinity correctly. Till he does my lack of respect is inevitable.

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  61. Anonymous:

    I think this is mistaken. The 'guarantee' that a translation is possible comes from the authority of the source of the revelation, not from the revelation itself. You're trying to make sense of and justify a revelation that is held to be mysterious from its initial communication, but confidence in the revelation doesn't come from the revelation itself.

    But we have no direct and unmediated access to the source, but only to whatever the source chooses to reveal of itself via a revelation. A dream is a revelation. A vision is a revelation. A text is a revelation. All we have are revelations, and never the source or origin. It is only during the beatific vision that one has unmediated access to the source, and even then, there is an infinite distance between the blessed and God. So, here in this world, all we have are revelations, and my point is that you must have some kind of criteria to differentiate true revelations from false revelations, and simply appealing to the source just begs the question entirely, because the only place to find the source is within and via the revelations themselves.

    I don't see how that's problematic at all.

    It is a problem, because you have to have a way to trace a text written and declared by a human being to God just using the text itself. And that requires criteria.

    As I said, it's a loose analogy, but I think it gets the job done. You can argue all the way to solipsism if you want, but I think most people will concede it's possible to, within reason, investigate an authority and come to a conclusion to place your trust in them, even if you may be wrong.

    I’m not endorsing solipsism. I’m just pointing out the radical difference between being able to call a university registrar and confirming that someone has the credentials that they claim and being able to ask God himself whether a text comes from him. The former is possible, and the latter is impossible.

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  62. My reply is the same in this case. The 'something' you need to know in order to begin building any case for logical contradiction (or, for that matter, logical consistency) is itself subject to being part of the mystery, in whole or part.

    And my contention is that it isn’t. We know that our limited understanding of God involves a divine essence and divine persons. The divine essence cannot involve real distinction, but only virtual and notional distinction. That is why there is no real distinction between God’ essence, existence, and attributes. They are all one and the same in reality, but only seem to be different on the basis of how they present themselves to our finite intellect. At most, there is a virtual distinction between them, but there cannot be a real distinction at all. The only kind of real distinction that is possible within God is between the divine persons. Furthermore, we know that the real distinction between the divine persons cannot have its origin or source in the divine essence, which means that it must have its origin or source from something other than the divine essence, which I have called X. If you call the divine essence E, then one can certainly ask if E and X are one and the same in reality.

    Now, you are correct that that are an infinite number of things that I do not know about God, which is why he is a mystery, but my claim is that I do not need to know everything about something to find a logical contradiction. For example, if I am told that there is a geometric shape in two dimensions that is four sided and three sided, then I can conclude that that shape is logically impossible. It doesn’t make sense in that situation to respond, “But you don’t know the size of the lines, or the color of the lines, or whether the shape is itself colored, or who drew the shape, or why they drew the shape, and therefore, you cannot know that it is logically impossible.” At worst, the unknown information will be completely irrelevant to the claim of logical consistency, as in my example, and at best, the unknown information will just help you determine which premises were false in the argument that led to the logical contradiction.

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  63. @dguller

    Sorry for barging in, but I'd like to address this particular point.

    I’m not endorsing solipsism. I’m just pointing out the radical difference between being able to call a university registrar and confirming that someone has the credentials that they claim and being able to ask God himself whether a text comes from him. The former is possible, and the latter is impossible.

    It's not at all impossible. I find this assertion groundless.
    An argument was provided by Professor Feser in 'The Last Superstition', which I believe you've read. I'm going to specify it a bit.

    It goes something like this:

    1) It can be shown purely by means of philosophy that the God of classical theism exists.
    2)Through purely historical argument (studying all the data available, including the Bible as a historical - I can't stress it enough - document) it can established beyond reasonable doubt that Jesus Christ lived. Morever, he died, but then rose from the dead, that being one of his miracles. "And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain ... And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins." (1 Cor. 15:14, 17) As Prof. Feser put it, the Resurrection put 'the divine seal of approval' on the teaching of Jesus, validating the claims made by Christ, including that of founding a Church entrusted with divine commission, entailing, among other things, Her divine authority, including infallibility in matters pertaining to it, and indestructability, both expressed in Mat. 16-18 ('aedificabo Ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversus eam.', . etc), these attributes flowing from the teaching of Jesus and supported by historical evidence testyfying to, say, the early belief of the historical church in these things.
    3)The only church capable of sustaining the claim to such a charism and tracing it's uninterrupted existence to historical events of Jesus' life is the Catholic Church, safeguarding the necessary continuity.
    4)Keeping the natural religious obligation in mind, it follows that every rational human being must submit to the authority of the Catholic Church and accept Her teachings (becoming Catholic), including that which She declared to be revealed mysteries, ‘rendering unto God’ that which was revealed, accepting them by trusting (believing, giving assent of faith to) His Church.

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  64. *continued*

    Now, I do realise that all this might sound problematic to some, the most hard probably being ‘premise’ 2. I concede this can hypothetically be proven to be false: a historical/archeological discovery (perhaps the Apostles were indeed vile conspirators/hallucinating maniacs, etc.), demonstrating the sources used to establish the necessary facts unreliable, etc. I have to note, though, that once at 2) one cannot appeal to naturalistic assumptions making the aforementioned alternative hypotheses prefarable or even tenable, say, about the impossibility of miracles, nor would it do to discredit miracles on grounds of improbability, as miracles are by definition extraordinary. One just needs to assess the evidence and testimony available.
    It is evident that 3) might seem problematic as well, as our discussion with Jeremy Taylor and the trolling of George illustates (to a lesser extent, obviously, given the manifest inadequacy and the nature of his argument). For example, the Eastern Orthodox claim to be the true Church, and support this claim with serious arguments, but the following factors need to be considered: a) unity once surely existed; b) these diffuculties are held by both sides of the debate to be resolvable; c) it’s more of a rival claim instead of a different one (like that of Protestants, other religions, etc), e.g. both Catholics and Orthodox claim to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ himself.
    This peculiar dependence on history makes Christianity, for the lack of a better term, falsifiable, which I regard as one of the singular beauties of the Faith, Catholicism even more so, given that the Church made quite a lot of positive dogmatic statements that can hypothetically be shown to be false, most notably, perhaps, infallibility. One dogma being false would render the entire corpus of them false, meaning that, paraphrasing St. Paul, our preaching (is) vain, and our faith is also vain.

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  65. The Feserites were agog
    When Uncle Feser blogged
    They all became befogged
    By A-T theology

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  66. *continued*

    As I'm sure you know the Catholic Church states that Her dogmas are unchanging, and the contrary remains to be demonstrated.
    As Prof. Feser rightly points out in 'TLS', it doen't matter if the majority of believers are incapable of producing the arguments presented by Aquinas. The same applies here. After all, intellectual honesty, while being certainly important, is not the principle requirement of the Faith as such, and though all these facts are necessary for the defence of it, the comprehension of the relevant matters by all the ordinary faithful is not at all required. The arguments just have to be out there.

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  67. Scott:

    This is beside the point. As I understand it, the doctrine of divine simplicity doesn't hold that there are no real distinctions in God at all—just ones that don't introduce any divisions in the unity of the divine essence. (See 253-255 here.)

    You’ll note that my comments do not say that God has no real distinctions, but that the divine essence, and thus, Being Itself and the divine attributes, lack real distinction. The only distinctions that are possible in the divine essence are either virtual distinction or notional distinction. As Aquinas writes: “there must be real distinction in God, not, indeed, according to that which is absolute--namely, essence, wherein there is supreme unity and simplicity--but according to that which is relative” (ST 1.28.3). And as Garrigou-Lagrange writes: “no real distinction exists in God between His being and His essence, nor between His essence, faculties, and operation” (The Trinity).

    As BenYachov says, the claim is that these distinctions are real without being physical or metaphysical. And if there's a bit of a mystery as to just what sort of real distinctions they therefore are—well, yeah, that's pretty much the point, isn't it?

    Once again, we have to be careful about our terminology. Aquinas recognizes three kinds of distinction: real, virtual and notional. G-L writes that the distinction between the divine essence and the divine persons cannot be a real distinction, but rather must be a virtual distinction, which is “a distinction of reason with a foundation in reality” (Ibid.), which differentiates it from a notional distinction, which is a distinction of reason without a foundation in reality, i.e. the distinction is only in the human mind.

    G-L is quite clear that “the real relations in God are not really distinct from the divine essence but are distinguished from it only by reason” (Ibid.), i.e. according to a virtual distinction, specifically a minor virtual distinction. He even has an argument for this claim, which is identical to my very own: “Everything that is not the divine essence is a creature. But the relations really belong to God. If therefore they are not the divine essence, they are creatures; and the worship of latria cannot be offered to the divine relations” (Ibid.). He concludes from this argument that the divine essence cannot be really distinct from the divine relations (i.e. the divine persons).

    And that leaves only two possibilities, either the divine essence is virtually distinct from the divine relations, or the divine essence is notionally distinct from the divine relations.

    If the former, then the divine essence has characteristics in reality that differ from the characteristics of the divine relations. For example, divine justice and divine mercy are both virtually distinct from one another, and they have different characteristics, such as that divine justice punishes whereas divine mercy does not punish, and thus they cannot be the same thing in reality. And this is problematic, because Aquinas himself endorses the view that if X and Y are distinguishable, then they cannot be the same thing in reality, but either refer to different parts of the same thing or different things altogether. So, if the divine essence is distinguishable from the divine persons, then the same argument that G-L used above, and which I have used, applies, because the divine persons are not the divine essence, and thus must be creatures. Thus, the divine essence cannot be virtually distinct from the divine persons.

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  68. If the latter, then the divine essence and the divine persons are one and the same in reality, and cannot have different characteristics in reality, even though they appear differently to our finite and limited intellects. Now, the fact that they do have different characteristics, i.e. the former lacks real distinction of any kind, and the latter has real distinction of some kind, means that their common referent would have contradictory properties, which is impossible. Thus, the divine essence cannot be notionally distinct from the divine persons.

    So, the conclusion is that the divine essence cannot be really distinct, virtually distinct, and notionally distinct from the divine persons, because all of these possibilities lead to contradictions and absurdities, and thus must be false.

    According to Trinitarian doctrine as I understand it, we can do no such thing: the relations between the persons are supposed to be the basis for the distinction, and each relation is also itself supposed to be the (full) divine essence. So that's a third alternative that your argument doesn't consider: that there's no "engendering" being done by the divine essence, but that the differentiating factor also isn't distinguishable from the divine essence but just is the divine essence.

    To me, that does not make any sense. If the differentiating factor “just is the divine essence”, then how can there be differentiation at all? I’ve cited Emery to support the idea that it is impossible for the real differentiation between the divine persons to come from the divine essence. How does simply identifying the differentiating factor with the divine essence solve this problem? It seems to repeat the same mistake, i.e. that if the divine essence is fully present in each divine person, then how can it also be the source and explanation of differentiation between them? It would be like saying that Scott and dguller are differentiated on the sole basis of our identical human nature. Well, if we both have the same human nature, then how can that be a basis for differentiation?

    However difficult (or impossible) that may be to conceive, there's no contradiction in it as far as I can see—and the fact that it's not possible to conceive it is the entire point of treating it as a mystery (revealed, not directly understood, and to be accepted by faith on the authority of revelation).

    But it is a logical contradiction. If X and Y have the same characteristics, and do not differ in any way, then X and Y are identical. They must differ in some way, and it cannot be on the basis of what they have in common, because what they have in common is identical. You are basically saying that X and Y are exactly the same, and that is why they are different.

    As one of the Anons says, that mystery is what you're after here. But in trying to conceive it, what you're actually demonstrating is that there's a contradiction between two doctrines that the Catholic Church doesn't hold.

    But the Church does hold it. It holds that:

    (1) If X is not Being Itself, then X is a creature
    (2) The divine essence cannot involve real distinction of any kind
    (3) The divine persons involve real distinction of some kind
    (4) The real distinction between the divine persons cannot be due to the divine essence
    (5) The divine essence is either really distinct, virtually distinct or notionally distinct from the divine persons

    And those are the main premises in my argument. But maybe I’m wrong. Which of the above premises does the Catholic Church reject?

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  69. What did I tell you people?


    >Furthermore, we know that the real distinction between the divine persons cannot have its origin or source in the divine essence, which means that it must have its origin or source from something other than the divine essence, which I have called X. If you call the divine essence E, then one can certainly ask if E and X are one and the same in reality.

    Like I said he simply ignores arguments that defeat his straw man view & merely restates his position as if he was never answered!

    Then you people act surprised when I get pissed at him!

    Try dealing with 1000 posts of the garbage above (ignore+repeat)then tell me it doesn't make you mad!

    Talk about rude!

    >For example, if I am told that there is a geometric shape in two dimensions that is four sided and three sided, then I can conclude that that shape is logically impossible.

    He made this argument in the past too. Repeats himself again ignores my counter argument such as you can have a 2D analog representation of a tetrahedron which has four flat sides & is made up of three sided triangles. That is not logically impossible. I don't even want to get into how he willfully misread my tesseract analogy.

    But even if we didn't want to get cute as Sheed said which he ignored & will continue to ignore a contradiction must be clear & can have no hidden elements.

    "If two statements are fully comprehended and yet cannot be reconciled, then there is real contradiction and one of them must be false."

    The Trinity by definition contains a mystery & thus by definition cannot be fully comprehended & thus cannot have a provable contradiction.

    But at the end of the day dguller wants to save his straw man & not discuss the actual doctrine of the Trinity.

    Feser was right & so was Sheed. You can say about the Trinity "I can't comprehend how that could be true but I don't see a logical contradiction".

    Or as Feser said anyone who sees a contradiction in the Trinity doesn't really understand the doctrine.

    It is as plain as a Bulgarian woman pin up dguller doesn't understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

    It would be forgivable except the actual Trinity has been explained to him & he has ignored it and dropped key element to it.

    So he can get lost with the rest of the anti-Catholic fundies as far as I am concerned!

    He clearly is no better!

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  70. Tap & Mr. Green:

    I appreciate the supportive comments, but to be honest, Ben is perfectly free to post whatever he wishes. That is his right.

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  71. @Scott

    >You’ll note that my comments do not say that God has no real distinctions, but that the divine essence, and thus...

    You will also note Scott I specifically (not that there is a different) addressed that issue. It is false to say the divine simplicity means has no distinctions at all in the divine essence but no physical and metaphysical ones. That is what I said!

    dguller does this little bit of misdirection & then drops a ton of verbiage to cover it up.

    You are not dealing with an honest man here who wants an honest discussion.

    Screw em!

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  72. @dguller:

    "You'll note that my comments do not say that God has no real distinctions, but that the divine essence, and thus, Being Itself and the divine attributes, lack real distinction."

    I have noted that most carefully, which is why I specifically said that there can be real distinctions in the divine essence and even gave you a link to the relevant part of the Catechism.

    "Once again, we have to be careful about our terminology. Aquinas recognizes three kinds of distinction: real, virtual and notional."

    And once again, I've been most careful to state expressly that we're specifically talking about real distinctions here. Real distinctions that introduce no divisions into the divine essence are permitted by the doctrine of divine simplicity. (Real physical and metaphysical distinctions do introduce such divisions, and so are not permitted. But according to the doctrine of the Trinity, there must be another sort of real distinction that is not ruled out.)

    "To me, that does not make any sense. . . . [I]f the divine essence is fully present in each divine person, then how can it also be the source and explanation of differentiation between them?"

    As you say, we do have to be careful about our terminology. And at this stage of the game, you really should be able to state the relevant doctrines in their own terms.

    So far as I can see, the doctrine of the Trinity says only that the real distinction resides solely in their relations, which are "of origin" and does not involve any sort of "opposition of relationship" (see the Catechism again). It further says, according to Aquinas (ST, Part I, Q.28, Art.2.), that each such relation is itself the same as the divine essence.[*]

    It does not say that these relations are a "source" or "explanation" of anything, or that there is any sort of "differentiation" between the divine persons.

    Now, if that still doesn't make sense to you, then congratulations; you've finally grasped that there's supposed to be a mystery here.

    But a mystery isn't a contradiction. You're finding one only by translating the two doctrines into your own non-equivalent terms and thus comparing two other doctrines.

    "(1) If X is not Being Itself, then X is a creature
    (2) The divine essence cannot involve real distinction of any kind
    (3) The divine persons involve real distinction of some kind
    (4) The real distinction between the divine persons cannot be due to the divine essence
    (5) The divine essence is either really distinct, virtually distinct or notionally distinct from the divine persons

    And those are the main premises in my argument. But maybe I'm wrong. Which of the above premises does the Catholic Church reject?"

    (2) for sure, as I think should be clear by now. I could pick nits about a couple of the others as well (e.g., what exactly do you mean by "due to" in (4)?) but (2) is the main problem here.

    ----

    [*] "[R]elation really existing in God is really the same as His essence and only differs in its mode of intelligibility; as in relation is meant that regard to its opposite which is not expressed in the name of essence. Thus it is clear that in God relation and essence do not differ from each other, but are one and the same."

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  73. Scott:

    And just to be clear, this is my understanding of the different kinds of distinctions:

    (1) X is really distinct from Y iff (a) X is separable from Y in reality, and (b) X is separable from Y in the human mind

    For example, act is really distinct from potency, because act can exist independently of potency, i.e. in Pure Act.

    (2) X is virtually distinct from Y iff (a) X is inseparable from Y in reality, (b) X is separable from Y in the human mind, and (c) X and Y correspond to different parts of Z

    For example, the divine idea of human nature is virtually distinct from the divine idea of dogness, because they cannot be separated from the divine intellect, and necessarily coexist within it as paradigms, and yet we can distinguish between them in our minds when we abstract them from particular humans and dogs, and we recognize that the divine ideas correspond to different parts of the divine intellect. Note that these parts are not material or metaphysical, or whatever, but rather are virtual parts.

    (3) X is notionally distinct from Y iff (a) X is inseparable from Y in reality, (b) X is separable from Y in the human mind, and (c) X and Y do not correspond to different parts of Z

    For example, the number 16 is notionally distinct from the square of 4, because each is contained within the meaning of the other, and even though we can distinguish between the two in our minds, they are not different parts of some whole, unless you very loosely define “part” and “whole” to include the set of numbers, and the various numbers and mathematical operations contained within that set. Under that scenario, there is no such thing as a notional distinction, and there is only real and virtual distinctions (of different kinds), which is G-L’s position, I think.

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  74. Hi dguller,

    Just a few quick comments.

    1. If you're going to argue against the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity then you need to define your terms. How do you define "real distinction," "virtual distinction" and "notional distinction"? (By the way, the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms that there is a real distinction between the Divine Persons.)

    2. Would you say that there is a real distinction between knowing and loving? Yes or no?

    3. Loose terms such as "involve" and "due to" have no place in logically rigorous arguments. I suggest you try recasting your argument in first (or second) order predicate calculus.

    4. What's wrong with simply saying that God the Son is God's knowledge (or idea) of Himself, and God the Holy Spirit is God's love of Himself? If God's Nature is to know and love, then the distinction between the three Persons arises from God's Nature, even though God's Nature is itself simple. Where's the problem?

    5. There seems to be an equivocation in your argument between steps (2) and (4). From the fact that the Divine Essence does not contain (or "involve," to use your term) and real distinctions, it does not follow that real distinctions cannot arise from the Divine Essence.

    My two cents.

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  75. @BenYachov:

    "You will also note Scott I specifically (not that there is a different) addressed that issue."

    Yes, you did; so did I, and I've just done so again. Patience. ;-)

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  76. Sorry dguller,

    "and real distinctions" should read "any real distinctions" in the last sentence.

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  77. @Vincent Torley:

    "How do you define 'real distinction,' 'virtual distinction' and 'notional distinction'?"

    Heh, it appears that dguller was typing his answer even as you were typing the question.

    "By the way, the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms that there is a real distinction between the Divine Persons."

    It does indeed, and a bit earlier I provided a link to the relevant part. To my mind this is the key point (although, as you can probably tell from my own previous reply to dguller, I also agree about the ambiguity of phrases like "due to").

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  78. @Scott

    To recap.


    dguller said:
    >There are two things that we know for certain about these doctrines: first, that divine simplicity means that the divine essence cannot involve real distinction of any kind,

    I said That is 100% false the divine simplicity means that the divine essence cannot involve any real physical distinction or real metaphysical distinction of any kind subsisting in it. If absolutely no kind of real distinction can be found subsisting in the divine essence(that is by definition neither a real physical or metaphysical one) then you are A Priori defining the Trinity is impossible or a contradiction and you are doing this by changing the actual doctrine's content to other then what is believed by Christians. So you are arguing a straw man! This subtle truth is lost on certain suborn ex-Muslim assholes.

    It is clear when you said "As I understand it, the doctrine of divine simplicity doesn't hold that there are no real distinctions in God at all"
    you where referring to the divine essence.

    After all God is his own essence.

    At this point dguller will do back flips not to get this simple point both you and I and every Trinitarian here who accepts the divine simplicity grasps.

    He will obfuscate and flood the combox with irrelavent tangents.

    I wash my hands of him.

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  79. @BenYachov

    I sort of see your point now.
    Not that I'm new to that kind of thing, but..

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  80. Scott:

    And once again, I've been most careful to state expressly that we're specifically talking about real distinctions here. Real distinctions that introduce no divisions into the divine essence are permitted by the doctrine of divine simplicity. (Real physical and metaphysical distinctions do introduce such divisions, and so are not permitted. But according to the doctrine of the Trinity, there must be another sort of real distinction that is not ruled out.)

    First, I’ve cited Aquinas and G-L as explicitly rejecting the view that any real distinction can be attributed to the divine essence. Nowhere that I know of do they, or anyone, explicitly affirm a particular kind of real distinction that can be predicated of the divine essence. In fact, they go to great lengths to avoid precisely that claim, because it would violate divine simplicity.

    Second, the Cathecism says: “Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another”. I don’t think that this means that there is a real distinction in the divine essence, but only one that “does not divine the divine unity”, but rather that the real distinction of the divine persons cannot be predicated of the divine essence at all, on pains of violating its simplicity. After all, I can say, “Because it does not divide the room, a table outside of the room …” This does not imply that the table is inside the room at all.

    So far as I can see, the doctrine of the Trinity says only that the real distinction resides solely in their relations, which are "of origin" and does not involve any sort of "opposition of relationship" (see the Catechism again). It further says, according to Aquinas (ST, Part I, Q.28, Art.2.), that each such relation is itself the same as the divine essence.[*]

    And that is precisely where the contradiction lies. The real distinction in question exclusively resides in the divine persons on the basis of the different processions from different origins within the Trinity. If the divine essence is one and the same as the divine persons in reality, then how can one and the same “thing” have contradictory properties, i.e. is really distinct and is not really distinct? The only way out of this dilemma is to claim that one of the contradictory predicates is just a mental projection of the human mind that does not actually correspond to anything in the referent, or to divide the contradictory predicates into different parts of the common “thing”. Neither of these options is helpful, I think. Furthermore, you are stuck with the problem of how that which is undifferentiated could be the origin of differentiation. Where did the differentiation come from? It is the same problem as how the Neoplatonic One, which is undifferentiated and simple par excellence, can emanate differentiated processions.

    It does not say that these relations are a "source" or "explanation" of anything, or that there is any sort of "differentiation" between the divine persons.

    If there is a real distinction between the divine persons, then there is a differentiation between them. And just to be clear, I just mean that they are different and not the same “thing”. Again, you have a distinction in God between the divine essence, which lacks the predicate of real distinction, and the divine persons, which have the predicate of real distinction. Aquinas is perfectly clear about this fact. The question is what kind of distinction this is. In other words, is it a real distinction, a virtual distinction, or a notional distinction? I think that each of these options leads to contradictions, and thus none of them work.

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  81. (2) for sure, as I think should be clear by now. I could pick nits about a couple of the others as well (e.g., what exactly do you mean by "due to" in (4)?) but (2) is the main problem here.

    But you haven’t demonstrated that (2) is false. You have provided a part of the Cathecism that is ambivalent about this precise issue. It could be read either way. Do you have a clear statement in an authoritative text that explicitly states that the divine essence can be really distinct in some way? That would nicely settle the entire matter, I think.

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  82. Scott:

    And to quote the esteemed Ben:

    “No orthodox definition or formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity assumes the real distinctions between Persons is any type of real distinction in essence.”

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  83. “No orthodox definition or formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity assumes the real distinctions between Persons is any type of real distinction in essence.”

    By which I meant real physical & metaphysical distinctions.

    You & your word games and quote mining.

    I suppose if I said "The Godhead is composed of a Trinity of person Father etc" you would say I am denying the divine simplicity?

    There is no real difference between you and Fred dude.

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  84. >First, I’ve cited Aquinas and G-L as explicitly rejecting the view that any real distinction can be attributed to the divine essence.

    Which means the divine essence is not divided physically or metaphysically.

    But there is incomprehensible real distinction person to person.

    >Second, the Cathecism says: “Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another”. I don’t think that this means that there is a real distinction in the divine essence,

    Yet your whole objection to the Trinity is that it both affirms and denies there is a real distinction in essence?

    gotcha!

    I can't do 1000 more posts of this dishonest twerp!

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  85. >And that is precisely where the contradiction lies. The real distinction in question exclusively resides in the divine persons on the basis of the different processions from different origins within the Trinity.

    Here he backpedals and changes his argument!

    So Mr. Green still think he is a nice honest person?

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  86. @dguller:

    "I don't think that this means that there is a real distinction in the divine essence, but only one that 'does not [divide] the divine unity' . . . "

    Fair enough; my own use of "in" in this context was imprecise and, moreover, is not the language in which the doctrine is ordinarily stated.

    I think Vincent Torley has made the necessary point here, and I'll adopt his terms: the fact that there are no real distinctions contained in the divine essence doesn't mean there are no such distinctions arising from the divine essence. Either of these could be expressed by saying that there are real distinctions "in" the divine essence, but in fact in this context "in" is generally reserved for the former sense and you're therefore right that I was using the word in an equivocal or misleading way.

    But that such distinctions do arise from the divine essence is just what the doctrine of the Trinity (as I understand it) maintains, and the doctrine of divine simplicity does not say or imply that the divine essence "involves" (as per your point (2)) no real distinctions.

    So as far as I can see, the little I've had to say on this subject is unaffected by that modification/clarification.

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  87. Vincent:

    1. If you're going to argue against the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity then you need to define your terms. How do you define "real distinction," "virtual distinction" and "notional distinction"? (By the way, the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms that there is a real distinction between the Divine Persons.)

    I just posted my understanding of those terms. If I’m wrong, then I’d appreciate some feedback.

    2. Would you say that there is a real distinction between knowing and loving? Yes or no?

    Yes, there is a real distinction, at least according to my understanding of real distinction. After all, it is possible to know something without loving it, and thus knowing is separable from loving, but I doubt that loving is separable from knowing, because one must know to some extent what one loves.

    3. Loose terms such as "involve" and "due to" have no place in logically rigorous arguments. I suggest you try recasting your argument in first (or second) order predicate calculus.

    That’s a fair point. When I talk about “involve”, I just mean “predicated of”. So, when I say that the divine essence cannot involve any real distinction of any kind, what I mean is that real distinction of any kind cannot be predicated of the divine essence. In other words, it is not the case that the divine essence is really distinct. And “due to” just means “originates in”, or “is explained by”.

    4. What's wrong with simply saying that God the Son is God's knowledge (or idea) of Himself, and God the Holy Spirit is God's love of Himself? If God's Nature is to know and love, then the distinction between the three Persons arises from God's Nature, even though God's Nature is itself simple. Where's the problem?

    The problem, I think, is when one claims that God’s knowledge is his love, which is necessarily the case, if divine simplicity is true. Probably the best solution is to say that God’s knowledge and God’s love are virtually distinct, which I would take to mean that they are inseparable virtual “parts” of the divine essence. So, what about God’s knowledge of himself and God’s love of himself? Well, there is a distinction between them, and the further question is what kind of distinction it is.

    If it is a real distinction, then they must be separable, which is impossible, and thus it cannot be a real distinction. If it is a virtual distinction, then you have a contradiction, because they are supposed to be really distinct, and X and Y cannot be really distinct and virtually distinct, because they are mutually exclusive kinds of distinction. If it is a notional distinction, then they are one and the same in reality, and there is no sense in saying that there are two really distinct divine relations.

    5. There seems to be an equivocation in your argument between steps (2) and (4). From the fact that the Divine Essence does not contain (or "involve," to use your term) and real distinctions, it does not follow that real distinctions cannot arise from the Divine Essence.

    You are correct, but that is not the argument I’m making. The reason why real distinctions cannot arise from the divine essence is that it is formally and numerically one and the same in each divine person. Since it is exactly the same in every way in each divine person, it cannot be the basis of any differentiation and individuation of the divine persons. That differentiation and individuation must come from other than the divine essence. It can come from something that comes from the divine essence, but what comes from the divine essence is not the divine essence itself.

    Any thoughts?

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  88. @Scott

    The real problem is analogously you are arguing with a man who insists the Sacrifice of the Mass means Jesus is re-sacrificed and dies again & the doctrine doesn't teach that & no matter how many times you correct him he interprets everything he reads to that faulty meaning.

    dguller is not here to discuss the Trinity he is here to argue a straw man.

    I wrote a 1000 posts too him & his best response is to proof text something I know I said that has no reference & is not in context.

    He is not here for honest discussion.

    Morally he is Fred.

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  89. Scott:

    the fact that there are no real distinctions contained in the divine essence doesn't mean there are no such distinctions arising from the divine essence. Either of these could be expressed by saying that there are real distinctions "in" the divine essence, but in fact in this context "in" is generally reserved for the former sense and you're therefore right that I was using the word in an equivocal or misleading way.

    Fair enough. My only comment would be that since the divine essence is Being Itself, and everything comes from Being Itself, it follows that everything arises from the divine essence, including things that are distinct and distinguished from one another. So, the issue isn’t that nothing distinct could ever originate in the divine essence. The issue is that differentiation per se must be rooted in differences between entities. Those differences must be other than what they have in common. You cannot distinguish X and Y solely on the basis of what they have in common, after all. So, if the divine persons share the divine essence in common, then their real distinction from one another cannot be explained by the divine essence itself, but rather by what is other than the divine essence.

    But that such distinctions do arise from the divine essence is just what the doctrine of the Trinity (as I understand it) maintains, and the doctrine of divine simplicity does not say or imply that the divine essence "involves" (as per your point (2)) no real distinctions.

    The further complication, if I am correct that it is impossible for real distinction to be in the divine essence at all, then if the real distinction between the divine persons is in the divine essence, then their real distinction is also in the divine essence. After all, they couldn’t just leave their real distinction outside of the divine essence! And if their real distinction is within the divine essence, then real distinction is in the divine essence, which I am arguing is impossible, if divine simplicity is true.

    Furthermore, if real distinction is not a big deal for divine simplicity, and there is no problem with saying that real distinction of some kind exists within the divine essence, then why bother saying that the divine attributes are one and the same? There is no longer any possible basis to say that the divine intellect is the divine will, and so on. Why not just say that they are really distinct?

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  90. >The further complication, if I am correct that it is impossible for real distinction to be in the divine essence at all,

    It is impossible for there to be real physical and metaphysical distinction in the divine essence.

    Keeps repeating his original errror.

    >then if the real distinction between the divine persons is in the divine essence,

    It is not clear what this real distinction is other then it is not any type of real distinction that is either physical or metaphysical.

    >then their real distinction is also in the divine essence.

    The Father & Son are really distinct as divine persons that is the point of the doctrine but neither is really distinct as God.

    Why is this hard?


    >After all, they couldn’t just leave their real distinction outside of the divine essence!

    Here you can see dguller implicity treats the distinction as a physical one.


    >And if their real distinction is within the divine essence, then real distinction is in the divine essence, which I am arguing is impossible, if divine simplicity is tru

    Except your definition of divine simplicity is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You are the only person here who thinks divine simplicity means "no real relations ever" which A priori makes your non-doctrine of the Trinity a contradiction.

    Scott knows what I am talking about.

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  91. @dguller:

    "[I]f I am correct that it is impossible for real distinction to be in the divine essence at all, then if the real distinction between the divine persons is in the divine essence, then their real distinction is also in the divine essence."

    Hmm, that isn't the most intelligible sentence you've ever written. If no X can be in E, then if this X were in E, then this X would also be in E? (Seriously, I'm not sure what you meant to write here, but I'm sure that wasn't it.)

    At any rate, though, my understanding is that the divine relations are supposed to be the same as the divine essence itself, not that the real distinctions between them are supposed to be "in" that essence. So however hard this may be to construe or to conceive, I still see no contradiction here with the doctrine of divine simplicity.

    I really don't think I'll have too much more to add here and I don't want to contribute to turning this thread into another 800-post Going-in-Circles-Fest, so I think I'll bow out now and perhaps revisit the subject if it comes up again (as no doubt it will).

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  92. >, so I think I'll bow out now and perhaps revisit the subject if it comes up again (as no doubt it will).


    Wait for me Scott!!!!

    @Brother Vincent!

    He is all yours don't forget your antacid tablets.

    You will need them.

    @dguller,

    later Gnu!

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  93. Parting shot from THE CATHOLIC ENCYLOPEDIA ON THE NATURE AND ATTRIBUTES OF GOD....

    quote"God is a simple being or substance excluding every kind of composition, physical or metaphysical....."

    Bye!!!

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  94. I'm sure ST Part I Q.30 has come up in this context before (either in this thread or one of the earlier ones), but I'm not going to dig for it and try to respond; I'm just posting a link for the benefit of anyone who wants to see (and doesn't already know) how Aquinas handles the issue.

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  95. @Scott

    That will be most helpful for others.


    Certain hopeless causes OTOH......

    Might I also recommend Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O. P. comentaries on the same Q30.

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  96. Scott:

    Hmm, that isn't the most intelligible sentence you've ever written. If no X can be in E, then if this X were in E, then this X would also be in E? (Seriously, I'm not sure what you meant to write here, but I'm sure that wasn't it.)

    Well, nobody’s perfect, least of all, myself!

    What I meant was that if X is P, and X is in Y, then P-ness is in Y. (And please, no P-ness jokes.) Now, if someone claims that it is impossible for P-ness to be in Y, and yet P-ness is in Y, then you have a contradiction that is in need of resolution.

    At any rate, though, my understanding is that the divine relations are supposed to be the same as the divine essence itself, not that the real distinctions between them are supposed to be "in" that essence. So however hard this may be to construe or to conceive, I still see no contradiction here with the doctrine of divine simplicity.

    First, the divine relations are described both as being in the divine essence and as being the divine essence. For example, Aquinas writes that “such a relation is a hypostasis subsisting in the divine nature, although in truth that which subsists in the divine nature is the divine nature itself” (ST 1.29.4).

    Second, the question is precisely the nature of this “be the same as”. Here’s how I look at it. We distinguish between the divine essence and the divine relations in our minds. The further question is whether this distinction is a real distinction, a virtual distinction or a notional distinction. If it is a real distinction, then the divine essence and the divine relations are separable and distinct in reality, and thus cannot be one and the same at all. And that means that the divine relations are other than the divine essence, which means that the divine relations are creatures. If it is a virtual distinction, then the divine essence has different characteristics from the divine relations, which means that they cannot be the same in reality, even though they can both be different and distinct virtual “parts” in God. However, since one part is not another part, even if they are both in the same whole, then the divine essence is not the divine relations, which means that the divine relations are creatures. If it is a notional distinction, then they are one in the same in reality, but then you have a logical contradiction, because one and the same thing is both really distinct and really indistinct.

    As I mentioned earlier, everything hinges on whether divine simplicity allows some kind(s) of real distinction, or whether the prohibition of real distinction is absolute. I think the latter must be true, and Aquinas confirms it: “there must be real distinction in God, not, indeed, according to that which is absolute--namely, essence, wherein there is supreme unity and simplicity--but according to that which is relative” (ST 1.28.3). If real distinction was permissible in the divine essence, then he would not have written that “real distinction in God” is “not … according to … essence”. Instead, he would have written that real distinction is only allowed to be predicated of the divine essence when it involves the divine persons.

    Like I said, Trinitarians want to adhere to two contradictory claims: first, that the divine essence is the same as the divine relations in order to avoid the implication that the divine relations are creatures, and second, that the divine relations are distinct from the divine essence in order to avoid the implication that the divine relations cannot be really distinct from one another. And that is why they endorse both claims at different times without reconciling them, at least as far as I understand the matter.

    I really don't think I'll have too much more to add here and I don't want to contribute to turning this thread into another 800-post Going-in-Circles-Fest, so I think I'll bow out now and perhaps revisit the subject if it comes up again (as no doubt it will).

    Thanks for your time, and take care.

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  97. To Whom It May Concern,

    1. From an objection and a response to a question in the ST:

    "Richard of St. Victor [*De Grat. Contempl. i, 6] distinguishes six species of contemplation... The sixth is 'above reason and contrary to reason'; when, to wit, by the divine enlightening we know things that seem contrary to human reason, such as the doctrine of the mystery of the Trinity." -- ST II-II, Q 180, A 4

    "These six denote the steps whereby we ascend by means of creatures to the contemplation of God... [T]he sixth step is the consideration of such intelligible things as the reason can neither discover nor grasp[.]" -- ibid (ad. 3)

    2. It would seem to follow from the above that where there is a denial that there is anything above human reason, or a denial of that which is above human reason, those intelligible things which are above human reason:

    a) will not be discovered;

    b) will not be grasped; or,

    c) will be thought to consist of, contain or involve variances of a discordant or contradictory nature.

    3. From a response to an objection to another question in the ST:

    "[O]ur intelligence...is more easily led by what is known through natural reason...to that which is above reason." -- ST I, Q 1, A 5, ad. 2

    Even so, and to tweak a well-known idiom, there seems to be little guaranty that a horse will drink of the water to which it has been led.

    (Indeed, where there is a denial that there is anything above human reason, or a denial of that which is above human reason, the hope that a horse will not refuse to drink of the water to which it has been led may be faint at best.)

    4. In short, for a Flatlander content with the Flatland perspective, no non-Flatland perspective is likely to be tenable.

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  98. BenYachov: What do you mean when you use "suborn" as an adjective?

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  99. Anon it means my spellcheck has failed me like it just did now.

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  100. (s/b:

    (4. In short, and to mix metaphors, for a Flatlander content with the Flatland perspective, no non-Flatland perspective is likely to be seen as being tenable.)

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  101. Re "suborn": I'm sure BenYachov was trying to type "stubborn" and missed (most likely) the t—at which point, as he says, his autocorrect took over.

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  102. Perhaps 'suborning' was (unconsciously) meant...

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  103. Anonymous:

    I think that he meant to write, "dguller is a dirty rotten piece of shit bastard! Grrrr!", but mistyped it accidentally. ;)

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  104. >I think that he meant to write, "dguller is a dirty rotten piece of shit bastard! Grrrr!", but mistyped it accidentally. ;)\

    No that is not what I meant Scott gets it yet again but to be honest I do in fact think that way about you.

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  105. dguller,

    When I am asking about whether E and X have the same R, I am not asking whether E and X are different aspects of a common R, much like the Morning Star and the Evening Star are different aspects of the planet Venus, but rather whether E and X are the exact same R itself.

    This doesn't get us any further at all if we do not have a definite and principled answer for what counts and does not count as an R, as well as criteria of sameness for R's.

    But the question is how those distinct universes of discourse relate to one another. In other words, how precisely does one translate from one universe of discourse to another?

    Yes, and this is quite right: that's one of the ways to characterize modal logic, as the logic relating universes of discourse and is the reason why any attempt to discuss the issue without regard for modal issues will fail.

    On your response to Aquinas's response to numerical arguments, it doesn't seem to work: trinity just is multiplicity of a certain structure. The idea that numerical terms can only refer to collections of units is simply not tenable; a collection of units is three only by being classifiable as a mulitiplicity of a certain structure, with discrete units.

    **
    First, God is not a “kind of real thing”. God is not a kind of anything at all, because that would place him under a genus, which is impossible.

    This is simply false. A genus in the sense in which God is not in a genus is a real categorical kind; it is child's play to find other things counting as kinds -- logical genera, transcendental kinds, etc.

    I am asking whether E and X have the same R in the same way that divine goodness and divine power have the same R.

    The answer is obviously not: divine goodness is not a reduplication of divine power, nor vice versa, where X is a reduplication of E. But it also doesn't get us very far: there's nothing about simplicity that requires that referent be the same for all terms. Divine simplicity doesn't convey anything about reference, so any talk in terms of referents has to be justified -- and that means, among other things, that one cannot assume that there are privileged ways of taking referents.

    If you are, as you seem to be claiming, using divine attributes as the universe of discourse, then you are committing an ignoratio elenchi -- X is never claimed to be a divine attribute in the way divine goodness and divine power are.

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  106. dguller said to Scott:

    And just to be clear, this is my understanding of the different kinds of distinctions:

    (1) X is really distinct from Y iff (a) X is separable from Y in reality, and (b) X is separable from Y in the human mind


    I think it's worth noting that this is a post-Thomas characterizing of real distinction; when he talks about real distinction, he does not commit to real separability.

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  107. Brandon:

    This doesn't get us any further at all if we do not have a definite and principled answer for what counts and does not count as an R, as well as criteria of sameness for R's.

    Here’s how I see things.

    R is either simple or composite. If R is simple, then there is only R. If R is composite, then there is R plus the various parts that make up R, i.e. R1, R2, R3, etc. These parts can be either real or virtual. So, what would count as an R would either be a simple R, a whole composite R, or parts of a composite R (i.e. R1, R2, R3, etc.).

    With regards to sameness, say that you have two senses, S1 and S2, and are wondering if they have the same referent. If the referent is simple, then they have the same referent if they both refer to R. If the referent is composite, then they have the same referent if they both refer to the same part of R or to the whole of R itself.

    So, using the example of the Morning Star and Evening Star, they both refer to the same whole composite material planet called Venus, but to different spatio-temporal parts of Venus.

    On your response to Aquinas's response to numerical arguments, it doesn't seem to work: trinity just is multiplicity of a certain structure. The idea that numerical terms can only refer to collections of units is simply not tenable; a collection of units is three only by being classifiable as a mulitiplicity of a certain structure, with discrete units.

    Yes, trinity is multiplicity involving the number three. That is the “certain structure” that you speak of, and it is a quantitative structure involving numbers. Otherwise, why “trinity” and not “duality”? Both involve multiplicity. What differentiates them is the number of units in the multiplicity, and not the multiplicity per se. The Christian does not say “the Multitude”, but “the Trinity”. The former is not incoherent when it comes to God, because it refers to transcendental multiplicity, but the latter is incoherent when it comes to God, because it necessarily includes the quantity of number, which cannot be predicated of God due to divine simplicity.

    This is simply false. A genus in the sense in which God is not in a genus is a real categorical kind; it is child's play to find other things counting as kinds -- logical genera, transcendental kinds, etc.

    But don’t all those kinds involve genera that are differentiated into species on the basis of differentiae? The whole objection to God being under a genus, or being a genus himself, is that the differentiating factor that divides a genus in different species comes from outside the genus itself. And since God is Being Itself, nothing could come from outside to cause the differentiation. So, whether the genus is “a real categorical kind”, or a “logical genera” or “transcendental kinds”, or whatever, as long as this dynamic occurs, then God cannot be that.

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  108. The answer is obviously not: divine goodness is not a reduplication of divine power, nor vice versa, where X is a reduplication of E. But it also doesn't get us very far: there's nothing about simplicity that requires that referent be the same for all terms. Divine simplicity doesn't convey anything about reference, so any talk in terms of referents has to be justified -- and that means, among other things, that one cannot assume that there are privileged ways of taking referents.

    But it does, I think.

    Feser writes: “Talking or conceiving of God, God’s essence, God’s existence, God’s power, God’s goodness, and so forth are really all just different ways of talking or conceiving of one and the same thing. Though we distinguish between them in thought, there is no distinction at all between them in reality. For again, if there were such a distinction, then we could distinguish parts in God, and being absolutely simple, God has no parts” (Aquinas, p. 127). This implies that whatever differences exist between divine goodness and divine power only exist in our conception of them, and do not correspond to the divine reality in which they are “one and the same thing” in which “there is no distinction at all between them in reality”. The same thing applies to the interconvertibility of the transcendentals, which “each designates one and the same thing – namely being – under a different aspect” in which the transcendentals “differ in sense but not in reference” (Ibid., p. 33).

    Now, other Thomists that I have read have a different take on the situation. Garrigou-Lagrange, for example, says that the divine attributes are minor virtual distinctions, and not notional distinctions. He says that because divine justice, for example, has different characteristics than divine mercy, then they cannot be really one and the same, but rather correspond to different virtual parts of God, although he doesn’t explicitly use this language. In other words, because the nature of divine justice differs from the nature of divine mercy, they cannot be the same thing, even though they can both be in the same thing. But again, there is no problem with referent here, because under my conception, divine mercy and divine justice have different referents in that they refer to different virtual parts of God, but they have the same referent in that they indirectly refer to the whole of which they are parts, i.e. God himself.

    If you are, as you seem to be claiming, using divine attributes as the universe of discourse, then you are committing an ignoratio elenchi -- X is never claimed to be a divine attribute in the way divine goodness and divine power are.

    My only point was that either X is identical to E (in the sense in which the divine attributes are identical to E, according to Feser’s account), or X is not identical to E. If the former, then the common referent of X and E, which we can call R, is both really distinct and really indistinct, which is a logical contradiction. If the latter, then X is a creature. Either way, it is impossible for the Trinity and divine simplicity to be true.

    I think it's worth noting that this is a post-Thomas characterizing of real distinction; when he talks about real distinction, he does not commit to real separability.

    Fair enough. Then what is the difference between a real distinction and a virtual distinction? Or is there only real distinction and notional distinction, which are the only two kinds of distinctions that Aquinas seems to endorse anyway. A virtual distinction was added as a necessity, because excluding it led to absurdities, such as some that you have pointed out regarding the divine attributes.

    Any thoughts?

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  109. If anyone wants to read up on the actual doctrine of divine simplicity as opposed to the dishonest misrepresentations of some.

    Enjoy!

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm#IC

    Love the opening sentence......

    "God is a simple being or substance excluding every kind of composition, physical or metaphysical."

    Read the rest you will look in vain for claims that the real distinctions between divine relations which are neither physical nor metaphysical are included in the actual Christian doctrine.

    Cheers people.

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  110. To all:

    I would like to request that someone post a single authoritative Catholic quote that states that the divine essence excludes one kind of real distinction (i.e. physical and metaphysical composition), but includes another kind of real distinction (i.e. personal composition).

    No allusions. No implications. No hints.

    Just a clear unambiguous statement of the above position would be most welcome to this discussion, because it would clarify a great deal of my confusion.

    Thanks.

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  111. >I would like to request that someone post a single authoritative Catholic quote that states that the divine essence excludes one kind of real distinction (i.e. physical and metaphysical composition), but includes another kind of real distinction (i.e. personal composition).

    Reminds me of the Fundamentalist Protestants who post challenges like "Where does the Bible say Mary was taken up into Heaven Body and Soul?" or "Where does the Bible mention a Rosery"?

    We Catholics just love it when non-Catholics pretend to understand our doctrines better than we do.

    I have been laughing at jerks like this all my life.

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  112. My only point was that either X is identical to E (in the sense in which the divine attributes are identical to E, according to Feser’s account), or X is not identical to E.

    But then we're back exactly where we started: you can't use identity uncritically in a cross-modal context. If we're just talking about the attributes, this is not a problem: the most serious modal issue with regard to divine attributes is that our terms have to be non-synonymous while not implying composition. This does not require our resorting to identity at all, in fact; when Augustine describes divine simplicity, for instance, he describes it along the lines of the unity of virtues thesis (the idea that at least the cardinal virtues are such that you cannot have any one of them in a strict and proper sense without having them all, because, e.g., prudence must be just, courageous, and temperate, while justice must be prudent, courageous, and temperate, etc.). But as soon as we are talking about things that are explicitly not being treated as on a logical level -- like Persons and Attributes, or Persons and Essence -- then we cannot be so lax.

    And thus I don't see that you are argument about the referents succeeds: nothing about this establishes that there is one and only one way to take referents, only that there is a particular way of taking referents that could possibly be handy when talking entirely about divine attributes. This seems far short of showing what you seem to need.

    On real distinction in Aquinas, my own view is that the phrase is not a strictly technical term in Aquinas, and that in any give case you can only determine what it means by seeing what it is contrasted with. In the case of the Trinity, Aquinas says there's a real distinction between persons because "the relative [relatio], compared to the essence, does not differ really [non differt re] but the relative, compared to the opposing relative has, by virtue of the opposition, a real distinction" (ST 1.39.1). This is why I've been insisting on the issue of reduplication: the Persons aren't distinguished by E or anything added to E; they are distinguished E-understood-in-a-relative-way is distinguished from E-understood-in-complementary-relative-way (where understood means properly understood, rather than just thought). There is nothing to distinguish in reality E from E-understood-in-relative-terms, because they are both E. But it does not follow from this that we can say that there is nothing to distinguish in reality E from E-understood-in-complementary-relative-terms. Are E and E-understood-in-relative-terms the same? They are both E. Are E-understood-relatively and E-understood-complementarily-relatively the same? They are both E, but they are distinct relatively.

    Thus far it's not too difficult to follow Aquinas; the only question left, really, is the one you're raising: Does the latter distinction require composition or aggregation? Aquinas says no, because distinction of relatives is the weakest -- minimum is his word -- real distinction; it's not merely rational, but it's too weak a distinction for composition or aggregation, which require (on Aquinas's account) either that one be actual joined with the other as potential, or that both be potential to something actual, neither of which is guaranteed by simply distinguishing complementary relatives. So the only question ends up being: What positive reason is there for holding that the distinction of persons introduces potentiality into the Godhead?

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  113. >Just a clear unambiguous statement of the above position would be most welcome to this discussion, because it would clarify a great deal of my confusion.

    You would think the brute fact there are no authoritative Catholic sources that clearly teach your novelty of the divine simplicity excluding the real relations between divine person would be a clue?

    If that was really our view why wouldn't we state it clearly?

    Why wouldn't at least one Pope teach it?

    Why do we have to wait for an Ex-Muslim Atheist to tell us what Fathers, Councils, Saints, Doctors have never told us?

    Really WTF?

    I am going to stop kicking you now that you are down.

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  114. I would like to request that someone post a single authoritative Catholic quote that states that the divine essence excludes one kind of real distinction (i.e. physical and metaphysical composition), but includes another kind of real distinction (i.e. personal composition).

    It's not really clear what you want. Catholics don't hold that there is any composition in God; they deny that the distinction of persons is composition of any kind.

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  115. But it does not follow from this that we can say that there is nothing to distinguish in reality E from E-understood-in-complementary-relative-terms.

    Sorry, this second one should be "But it does not follow from this that we can say that there is nothing to distinguish in reality E-understood-in-relative-terms from E-understood-in-complementary-relative-terms."

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  116. Yes, trinity is multiplicity involving the number three. That is the “certain structure” that you speak of, and it is a quantitative structure involving numbers. Otherwise, why “trinity” and not “duality”? Both involve multiplicity. What differentiates them is the number of units in the multiplicity, and not the multiplicity per se. The Christian does not say “the Multitude”, but “the Trinity”. The former is not incoherent when it comes to God, because it refers to transcendental multiplicity, but the latter is incoherent when it comes to God, because it necessarily includes the quantity of number, which cannot be predicated of God due to divine simplicity.

    (1) It's a little unclear with this argument whether it's supposed to be an argument against a Thomistic position or just in general. A Thomist will flat-out deny your first and second sentences. Our numeric terms can be used quantitatively, to describe divisions in continua or (what is related) discrete units, or they can be used to describe transcendental structures of which these divisions of continua are only versions in the category of quantity. But there are corresponding versions in the category of relation, for instance, and these are non-quantitative; and, ultimately, and one can consider these entirely non-categorically. The quantitative versions are simply the most obvious and easiest to work with.

    Thomists have no problem with transcendental duality, either -- that's precisely the sense in which act and potency, or substance and accident, or esse and essentia, can be said to be dual. The categories themselves are transcendentally tenfold -- to say that there are ten categories is not to say that there are ten quantitative units called 'categories'.

    (2) If we take it in general rather than specifically concerned with Thomism, your position still doesn't make much sense. What is this purely quantitative three inexplicable in terms of anything other than numbers of units? Which units are being referred to in the equation 3+3 = 6? None in particular. Thus three is not itself a collection of units; it is a structure that a collection of units may exhibit by its units. This leaves completely open whether there is anything else that may exhibit it. On your argument mathematical platonism would not only be wrong it would be completely incoherent, since the pure 3 it takes mathematicians to study is not a collection of units; but if that's the case, it's puzzling why mathematical platonism still allows one to do mathematics perfectly well without it -- and even more puzzling that it has always been such a popular position among mathematicians. Any serious account of numbers should at least make it possible to see why mathematical platonism is so plausible, even if wrong. Yours doesn't.

    In any case, the idea that even ordinary numbers are collections of units is an idea that has been exploded since the nineteenth century -- it is precisely what Frege was attacking in his philosophy of arithmetic. If you want to bring it back, OK, but you can't just assume it.

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  117. @dguller:

    I won't re-enter the discussion in full force, but I want to confirm one point.

    "I would like to request that someone post a single authoritative Catholic quote that states that the divine essence excludes one kind of real distinction (i.e. physical and metaphysical composition), but includes another kind of real distinction (i.e. personal composition)."

    As Brandon has said, there's a problem with the last parenthetical paraphrase here. The Catholic doctrine of divine simplicity specifically and positively rules out de fide that any sort of distinction ("real" or otherwise) in the divine essence implies, entails, engenders, gives rise to, causes, brings about, requires, suggests, or even hints at any sort of "composition" in that essence. The somewhat-open question is whether, and by what definitions/understandings/standards, this allows any sort of real distinction "in" (in any suitable sense) the divine essence. If it does allow any such distinction, then (as BenYachov has been at some pains to insist) it isn't physical or metaphysical.

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  118. "If it is a real distinction, then they must be separable, which is impossible, and thus it cannot be a real distinction."

    Act and potency as found in a creature require a real distinction, but one would be hard-pressed to actually separate the two while maintaining the existence of both principles... It would be quite impossible.

    This error posted by dguller to me says "hold the phone we are very much not on the same page." Define the terms and get on the same page or drop it. But I should take my own advice, I should have dropped it with dguller a long so long time ago when we were talking about analogically predication. Same thing happened.

    Defining terms needs to be at the start of a discussion and not at the end like this one.

    I know this is not true, but there's a part of me that likes the following far-fetched conspiracy theory: Dr. Feser and dguller are the same person and this is all his clever trick, albeit an incredibly tedious trick, to get us to define our terms at the outset.

    Well, I think I've learned my lesson: take a bow :)

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  119. >Dr. Feser and dguller are the same person and this is all his clever trick, albeit an incredibly tedious trick, to get us to define our terms at the outset.

    Christ Almighty have mercy on me a sinner!

    If that where really true I would be mortified and of anyone here I would have the most egg on my face!

    Oh the horror!!!!

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  120. Hi dguller,

    I've been doing a bit of reading. The short answer to your conundrum is that "real distinction" doesn't mean the same thing for Aquinas as it means for you. For you, X is really distinct from Y iff (a) X is separable from Y in reality, and (b) X is separable from Y in the human mind. But for Aquinas, X is really distinct from Y iff (a) X is and Y are non-identical, and (b) the statement that X = Y cannot be affirmed by the human mind.

    I wrote earlier that God the Son is simply God's knowledge (or idea) of Himself, and God the Holy Spirit is God's love of Himself. Necessarily, there is an oppositional distinction between the thinker and the thought: the latter is generated by the former. Ditto for the lover and the act of love. Hence we cannot speak of thinker and thought, or lover and love, as being identical, as such. We can however suppose that there is a single action (call it "thinking-loving" for want of a better term) in the Godhead, that this action is inherently relational, and that the three persons are the three poles of the relationship. Does that make sense?

    "Why isn't this the same as modalism?" you might ask. Something like modalism would be perfectly OK for explaining the distinction between, say, God's justice and God's mercy - they're just the same thing, viewed under different aspects. We can even suppose that in God, justice = mercy. But we cannot suppose that in God, thinker = thought, or lover = love. These are oppositional relationships. Opposition precludes the possibility of there being a real identity between the two terms of the relationship. Hence there must be a real distinction. Aquinas argues the same thing here: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1028.htm#article3

    By the way, here's a good article on Catholic teaching on the Trinity which you may find helpful: http://www.catholicprimer.org/garrigou/works/cr2-27.htm (it's also got quotes from Council declarations and from Cardinal Cajetan). Cheers.

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  121. Been sick all week, and just caught up. 2 things:

    1. The dguller/Brandon exchange is very interesting. I confess I've always had trouble with the Trinity and simplicity. I don't deny either, mind you, I just have trouble reconciling them intellectually. But as St Thomas points out, nothing prevents someone who cannot understand a demonstration from accepting the conclusion from the authority of the Church.

    2. I'm not that George. A different guy, entirely. (OT point: I've often wondered if, were it not for Washington, my name would have been non-existent in the USA.)

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  122. Brandon:

    But then we're back exactly where we started: you can't use identity uncritically in a cross-modal context. If we're just talking about the attributes, this is not a problem: the most serious modal issue with regard to divine attributes is that our terms have to be non-synonymous while not implying composition. This does not require our resorting to identity at all, in fact; when Augustine describes divine simplicity, for instance, he describes it along the lines of the unity of virtues thesis (the idea that at least the cardinal virtues are such that you cannot have any one of them in a strict and proper sense without having them all, because, e.g., prudence must be just, courageous, and temperate, while justice must be prudent, courageous, and temperate, etc.). But as soon as we are talking about things that are explicitly not being treated as on a logical level -- like Persons and Attributes, or Persons and Essence -- then we cannot be so lax.

    First, the precise issue is how to account for terms with different meanings without composition in the referent of those terms, at least of some kind. If two terms with different meanings are both about the exact same referent, and that referent lacks all composition, then what accounts for the differences in the meanings? The differences originate either in the human mind or in the referent itself. If they originate in the human mind, then they are not truly about the referent at all, and are just projections of the mind upon the referent. If they originate in the referent, then how can the same referent cause two different meanings when that referent lacks all composition? Again, where do the differences come from? They must come from different aspects or parts of the referent itself, which means that it must be composite.

    For example, the Morning Star is distinct in our minds from the Evening Star, because each has a different meaning. The different meanings are derived from their common referent, Venus, only because Venus is a composite spatio-temporal entity such that part of its orbit around the sun is referred to by the Morning Star and a different part of its orbit around the sun is referred to by the Evening Star. It is only because its orbit can be divided into parts that the distinction between the Morning Star and the Evening Star is truly about Venus, and not just a projection of our minds upon Venus.

    So, I really do not understand how it is possible for two different terms with two different meanings can truly be about a common referent if that referent is not composite in some way. It is inexplicable.

    Second, you state that one can appeal to the unity of virtues thesis without “resorting to identity at all”. I don’t think that will work. After all, identity is certainly involved in that thesis. You have “virtue”, which is a composite notion involving particular virtues that are distinct from one another, and yet interconnected such that the presence of one demands the presence of the others. So, that would be an example of virtual distinction, i.e. inseparable parts of a whole, and the identity in question would be of parts to a whole. Thus, identity is involved in that case. In other words, the virtues are the same, because they all participate in virtue itself, and thus identity is a necessary part of accounting for the unity of virtues. After all, “unity” just means “one and the same”.

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  123. Third, when you say that divine persons and divine attributes are “not being treated as on a logical level”, then there must be some identity between them in order to differentiate them to begin with. So, even denial presupposes identity of some kind, even if it is just the commonality of two different things each being a different thing. What is this commonality between the divine persons and the divine attributes? And how can you justify the use of this identity in a cross-modal context? Furthermore, can this commonality be considered a “genus”? And if so, then are the divine persons and the divine essence different “species” of that “genus”? But that leads us precisely to the problem that I’ve identified, i.e. the divine persons are not the divine essence, just like a dog is not a human, even though they are both animals.

    On real distinction in Aquinas, my own view is that the phrase is not a strictly technical term in Aquinas, and that in any give case you can only determine what it means by seeing what it is contrasted with.

    Fair enough.

    In the case of the Trinity, Aquinas says there's a real distinction between persons because "the relative [relatio], compared to the essence, does not differ really [non differt re] but the relative, compared to the opposing relative has, by virtue of the opposition, a real distinction" (ST 1.39.1). This is why I've been insisting on the issue of reduplication: the Persons aren't distinguished by E or anything added to E; they are distinguished E-understood-in-a-relative-way is distinguished from E-understood-in-complementary-relative-way (where understood means properly understood, rather than just thought). There is nothing to distinguish in reality E from E-understood-in-relative-terms, because they are both E. But it does not follow from this that we can say that there is nothing to distinguish in reality E from E-understood-in-complementary-relative-terms. Are E and E-understood-in-relative-terms the same? They are both E. Are E-understood-relatively and E-understood-complementarily-relatively the same? They are both E, but they are distinct relatively.

    I’m confused. I know, surprise, surprise.

    You mention reduplication, which is a fair point, because we are trying to understand the different ways of understanding God. As Aquinas states, God can be understood in two ways: absolutely as the divine essence or relatively as the divine persons. So, there are two possible understandings: God-as-essence and God-as-persons. There’s your reduplication. God-as-essence and God-as-persons are both God, but understood in different ways.

    My question is what our understanding of God as God-as-essence and God-as-persons correspond to in God. After all, they must correspond to something in God, if they are to be a true understanding of God. If they do not correspond to anything in God, then how could they be truly about God at all? Now, if they correspond to the exact same thing in God, then what accounts for their differences? It would be like saying that Brandon and dguller are different, because of our identical human nature. You cannot account for differences on the basis of what is the same. If they correspond to different things in God, then how can you avoid the conclusion that God must be composite in some way?

    I’ll comment on this below.

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  124. Thus far it's not too difficult to follow Aquinas; the only question left, really, is the one you're raising: Does the latter distinction require composition or aggregation? Aquinas says no, because distinction of relatives is the weakest -- minimum is his word -- real distinction; it's not merely rational, but it's too weak a distinction for composition or aggregation, which require (on Aquinas's account) either that one be actual joined with the other as potential, or that both be potential to something actual, neither of which is guaranteed by simply distinguishing complementary relatives. So the only question ends up being: What positive reason is there for holding that the distinction of persons introduces potentiality into the Godhead?

    First, why does the strength of the distinction between X and Y in Z determine whether X and Y are components of Z?

    Second, you mention that Aquinas’ account of composition, which I’d like to explore a little. Composition only makes sense in relation to a whole, which has parts. Let’s call the whole Z, and the parts X and Y. You say that Aquinas’ account of composition says that Z is composite iff (1) X is actual and Y is potential, or (2) X is potential and Y is potential. This seems problematic. Take any composite entity (= Z) composed of essence (= X) and existence (= Y). In order for essence and existence to be parts of the composite entity, either (a) existence is actual and essence is potential, (b) essence is actual and existence is potential, or (c) essence is potential and existence is potential. But none of these make sense. (a) makes no sense, because the essence is actually in existence, and not just potentially in existence. It is the primary actuality of the composite entity. Sure, prior to the reception of existence, the essence was potential, but after that reception, the essence is actual, not potential. (b) makes no sense, because existence must be actual being, and thus cannot be potential being in this context. (c) makes no sense, because then you cannot even have an actual composite entity at all. So, by this very criteria, an entity composed of essence and existence cannot be a composite entity, which would undermine a significant chunk of his system. I must be missing something here.

    Third, interestingly enough, Augustine calls God a “simple multiplicity, or multifold simplicity” (The Trinity 6.4) and Garrigou-Lagrange calls God a “simplicity pregnant with virtual multiplicity” (The Trinity). So, the real question is whether distinction and multiplicity necessarily imply composition. I think that they do, because to say that X is distinct from Y necessarily implies a multiplicity involving X and Y, and if X and Y are both in Z, then why can’t you say that X and Y are both parts of Z? So, if the divine essence is distinct from the divine persons, then why can’t you say that the divine essence and the divine persons are both parts of God, much like since form is distinct from matter in a material entity, then form and matter are both parts of that material entity. Sure, the parts of God would not be metaphysical or physical parts, but why are those the only kinds of parts that are possible? I think it makes sense to talk about virtual parts in God, such as the divine ideas, the divine attributes, the divine essence, and yes, the divine persons. That would mean that God is a composite entity of a virtual kind, but a simple entity of a metaphysical kind.

    Why would this be so objectionable?

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  125. It's not really clear what you want. Catholics don't hold that there is any composition in God; they deny that the distinction of persons is composition of any kind.

    I’ve cited Catholic thinkers that endorse the notion of multiplicity in God, and I have argued that if there is multiplicity in God, then there must be composition in God. After all, if there is a multiplicity, then there is a multiplicity of beings, and I see no reason why those beings cannot be construed as parts of the whole of which they are a multiplicity. If a house is made of a multiplicity of bricks, then those bricks are parts of the house. If a material entity is made of a multiplicity of form and matter, then form and matter are parts of that material entity. If the number three is made of the addition of one and two, and the addition of one-half and two-and-a-half, then those are parts of the number three. Sure, these are all different kinds of parts, some metaphysical, some physical, some virtual, but they are all parts. So, when you say that there cannot be “any composition in God”, I take that to mean that even virtual composition is excluded, which would mean that there is no way to explain the distinct divine ideas in the divine intellect, the distinct divine attributes, and so on. Distinction = multiplicity = composition (of some kind).

    A Thomist will flat-out deny your first and second sentences. Our numeric terms can be used quantitatively, to describe divisions in continua or (what is related) discrete units, or they can be used to describe transcendental structures of which these divisions of continua are only versions in the category of quantity. But there are corresponding versions in the category of relation, for instance, and these are non-quantitative; and, ultimately, and one can consider these entirely non-categorically. The quantitative versions are simply the most obvious and easiest to work with.

    First, what is the difference between a quantitative number and a non-quantitative number?

    Second, wouldn’t this account mean that numbers are transcendentals? And if that is true, then are numbers interconvertible with being, one, good, true, and so on? Furthermore, if numbers are transcendentals, then wouldn’t that mean that all of reality is numerical? And if that is true, then why isn’t it also quantitative?

    By the way, regardless of how this discussion turns out, I appreciate you taking the time to engage these ideas with me.

    Take care.

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  126. Michael:

    Act and potency as found in a creature require a real distinction, but one would be hard-pressed to actually separate the two while maintaining the existence of both principles... It would be quite impossible.

    That is true. What I meant by “separable” is that one could exist without the other. For example, act can exist without potency; form can exist without matter; existence can exist without essence; and so on. That was the one common thread that I found in Aquinas’ “real distinction”.


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  127. http://now.msn.com/jesus-misspelled-on-vatican-medal-for-pope-francis?ocid=ansnow11

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Infallibility my ass! You guys should admit you've been had, stop deluding yourselves and "come home" to the Reformed faith! Get out of that stinky old cesspool called the Tiber.

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  129. I suppose if Scott can do a brief drive by so can I...

    The real distinctions between the divine persons by virtue of the fact they are real in some mysterious incomprehensible way that is not any type of real physical or metaphysical distinction, are what compels us to say the Father is not really the same Divine Person as the Son.

    We Christians can never say because of the Grammar of the Trinity "the Father is the Son" without the qualifier "as the One True God".

    We can't say The Father is who the Son is but we can say He is what the Son it.

    Of course we use the term "who" differently in different senses when we talk about God.

    We can call the Godhead, Father, Son & Holy Spirit collectively a "Who" by virtue of the fact God in the Divine Essence has Intellect and Will.

    But when we talk specifically about the Trinity we use "who" in a different sense & we should only use "who" for the divine Persons and "what" for the divine essence.

    In that vane because there is no real distinction between divine attributes of any kind even beyond the physical and metaphysical we can say the divine justice is "who" and "what" the divine mercy is.

    Of course the "who" when predicated of the divine attributes is used in the same sense of speaking about the Godhead as a whole & not in the same sense of "who" when speaking of divine persons.

    This is my very simplistic explanation of the Grammar of the Trinity.

    This is the only way we can speak about God & stay Orthodox.

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  130. @dguller:

    "What I meant by 'separable' is that one could exist without the other. For example, act can exist without potency; form can exist without matter; existence can exist without essence; and so on. That was the one common thread that I found in Aquinas' 'real distinction'."

    On what basis do you think that Aquinas thought existence could exist without essence?

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  131. Additional:

    If you are not a believer well you don't have to believe in the Triune God but if you wish to talk about it you must adopt the Grammar of the Trinity otherwise you are discussing some novel God concept we don't believe in.

    Which is fine but don't call it the doctrine of the Trinity & expect us to take you seriously.

    The Trinity is not argued for like the divine attributes. It's ad hoc defined by the brute force of revelation.

    Given God has told us in divine revelation He contains in His Godhead really distinct divine relations & by revelation and Natural Theology we know God is Absolute in His Essence we need a language to explain how that is.

    The explanation in brief whatever that real distinction is in God it is an Absolute Mystery that the human mind cannot even in principle comprehend. It is also self-evidently not any type of real physical or metaphysical distinction.

    That is the Trinity in a nutshell and there is no other.

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  132. Scott:

    As Brandon has said, there's a problem with the last parenthetical paraphrase here. The Catholic doctrine of divine simplicity specifically and positively rules out de fide that any sort of distinction ("real" or otherwise) in the divine essence implies, entails, engenders, gives rise to, causes, brings about, requires, suggests, or even hints at any sort of "composition" in that essence. The somewhat-open question is whether, and by what definitions/understandings/standards, this allows any sort of real distinction "in" (in any suitable sense) the divine essence. If it does allow any such distinction, then (as BenYachov has been at some pains to insist) it isn't physical or metaphysical.

    First, I am open to the possibility that the divine essence can have real distinction of some kind. Of course, then it would not be absolutely simple, but only relatively simple, i.e. simple relative to metaphysical and physical distinctions, but composite relative to some other kind of real distinction, particularly the kind that occurs between the divine persons. And if that is the case, then it shouldn’t be any trouble to find an authoritative church figure explicitly endorsing such a position. Personally, I don’t think that any such citations will be found, because no church figure actually does endorse this position. I think that they actually endorse absolute simplicity of the divine essence and real distinction of divine persons.

    Second, the other interesting question is whether real distinction necessarily implies composition, i.e. if X is really distinct from Y in Z, then X and Y are parts of a composite entity Z. And that requires an explanation of what “real distinction” and “composition” mean.

    On what basis do you think that Aquinas thought existence could exist without essence?

    First, because Being Itself exists independently of whether any created essence is brought into existence.

    Second, because God’s existence does not exist with or without essence. That would presuppose a distinction between God’s existence and essence. But God’s existence is his essence, meaning that they are one and the same. They are two different ways of conceiving the exact same underlying reality. I do not exist with myself. I also do not exist without myself. The language of “with” or “without” does not make sense here. It is better to say that I am myself.

    Third, there is a logical priority of existence over essence. A thing cannot exist as a particular kind of being, unless it first exists.

    I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with this, but that this is Aquinas' position, insofar as I understand it.

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  133. interestingly enough, Augustine calls God a “simple multiplicity, or multifold simplicity” (The Trinity 6.4)

    No, he does not.

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  134. Here appears the profundity of Cajetan's [553] remark: the divine reality, as it is in itself, is not something purely absolute (signified by the word "nature") nor something purely relative (signified by the name "person"): but something transcending both, something which contains formally and eminently [554] that which corresponds to the concepts of absolute and relative, of absolute nature and relative person. Further, the distinction between nature and the persons is not a real distinction, but a mental distinction (virtual and minor): whereas the distinction between the persons is real, by reason of opposition. On this last point theologians generally agree with Thomists.

    -Reality:A synthesis Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O. P.

    I think someone is equivocating between an absolute Godhead like the one believed in by Muslims or Rabbinic Jews & the Christian view which doesn't have a purely absolute Godhead but has an absolute essence and relative relations.

    Since the nature of the real distinction in God is incomprehensible we don't know what it is other than it is real which we take on faith & it is not any type of real distinction we are familar with or in principle can ever be familar with. We can't positively say what it's nature is thus we can't say it in anyway really divides God's essence.

    We are dealing especially in Aquinas with a negative theology here so we really can't make any positive inferences other than one divine person is not the same person as another one. That's it.

    We are not allowed to say anything else. To attempt to do so is to choose not to talk about the Christian doctrine of the Trinity since it violates mystery trying to figure what it is.

    God contains no potency in His Essence so he is metaphysically simple & he is not a physical being so he is physically simple. But the Father is not the same divine person as the son but the Father is not really seperate from the son in essence.

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  136. >First, I am open to the possibility that the divine essence can have real distinction of some kind. Of course, then it would not be absolutely simple, but only relatively simple....

    The above sort of reminds me of semi-Cartesian theist thinking Atheists who say "God can't really be omnipotent if he really can't make 2+2=5 or make a rock so heavy yada yada...."

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  137. Glenn:

    Augustine:

    "Since, in the human mind, to be is not the same as to be strong, or prudent, or just, or temperate; for a mind can exist, and yet have none of these virtues. But in God to be is the same as to be strong, or to be just, or to be wise, or whatever is said of that simple multiplicity, or multifold simplicity, whereby to signify His substance." (The Trinity, Bk 6, Ch 4, Sec 6).

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  138. @Georgy,

    Since you are Russian, you are more intelligent than most Americans. Therefore, I will predict that you will leave the Roman Catholic Church in Moscow within the next 18 month. After this time attend a Protestant service, you will find fulfillment there. I speak from personal experience, I was a Catholic for many years and then an Eastern Orthodox for a few years. I always had my doubts about these organization because they could not adequately explain certain Bible passages clearly. Once I spoke the Protestants it was like, hey somebody truly understands the Bible. The Bible is makes more sense and is easier to understand than Catholics or Orthodox claim. It should be since the Bible was originally written to people with limited educations. So it must not be that difficult to understand.

    One fact about the Papacy that was quite bothersome for me, was the fact that they had Greek names. Thinks about this carefully and you will see why this is very bothersome.

    I have also observed and statistic record that over 90% of converts to the Catholic church leave within 2 years. The honeymoon wears off quickly.

    The bulk of people who stay are cradle Catholics who stay mainly out of familiarity, and not because of any joy they receive from being a member of their local parish. Catholics are some of grumpiest people I know, and makes them difficult to work with.

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  139. dguller,

    Glenn:

    Augustine:

    "Since, in the human mind, to be is not the same as to be strong, or prudent, or just, or temperate; for a mind can exist, and yet have none of these virtues. But in God to be is the same as to be strong, or to be just, or to be wise, or whatever is said of that simple multiplicity, or multifold simplicity, whereby to signify His substance." (The Trinity, Bk 6, Ch 4, Sec 6).


    I read that about 30 second prior to posting my comment. This is to say that I posted my comment about 30 seconds after reading that.

    Allow me to repeat that comment of mine to which you have responded:

    No, [Augustine] does not [as, you have stated, call God a "simple multiplicity, or multifold simplicity"].

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  140. It's implied that Brandon's points are still open, and I have a question. On 10/13, at 10:55 am, you say:

    "And even there, that divine attributes, assuming certain things about them, exhibit identitas is a consequence, not the foundation of divine simplicity, which is noncomposition."

    Does this mean that the identity of transcendentals is, in itself, something deduced from divine simplicity, and not a metaphysical principle which can help understand the Divine Nature? I understood that the IofTs was Platonic in origin.

    Or do I have the wrong end of the stick here.

    (Note: Don't let my 1st name fool you; I haven't posted in this thread until now. Been sick.)

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  141. God is absolutely omnipotent in the sense that He absolutely has all real powers.

    But God is not "absolutely" omnipotent in the sense he could make a clear Un-ambigious logical contradiction true. Such could not be any type of real power. There is no real power to make 2+2 really equal 5 or the Rock so heavy yada yada.

    God is absolute in his essence in that his essence absolutely contains no real physical or metaphysical distinction.

    But whatever other incomprehensible type of real distinction might be in God it absolutely can't be any type of real distinction in essence that is either physical or metaphysical.

    If it is a mystery then it can only be known negatively other then what is positively asserted by divine revelation.

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  142. Glenn:

    I'll leave others to make up their own minds about that quote, but I'd like to ask you one thing.

    When Augustine says "whatever is said of that simple multiplicity", what is "that" supposed to be referring to, if not to God himself?

    After all, he is talking about how in God, being and the divine attributes are identical, and he lists several divine attributes (e.g. strong, just, wise), and then says "or whatever is said of that simple multiplicity". It seems that the divine attributes that he listed were "said of that simple multiplicity". And specifically all that was said was "to signifiy His substance".

    What could Augustine be talking about, if not about God?

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  143. dguller,

    Augustine himself provides the answer to your question. And he provides the answer to your question in the very passage you have quoted.

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  144. Vincent:

    But for Aquinas, X is really distinct from Y iff (a) X is and Y are non-identical, and (b) the statement that X = Y cannot be affirmed by the human mind.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    It would seem to follow that, for Aquinas, to say that X is not really distinct from Y means that (a) X and Y are identical, and (b) the statement that X = Y can be affirmed by the human mind. Since he argues that the divine essence is not really distinct from the divine persons (e.g. ST 1.28.2), then it follows that (a) the divine essence and the divine persons are identical, and (b) the statement that the divine essence = the divine persons can be affirmed by the human mind.

    The question, as Brandon and I have been discussing, is what “identical” means in condition (a). I think that it can mean one of two things: (1) X and Y both refer to the exact same R, or (2) X and Y each refer to different aspects of a common R.

    With regards to (1), say that X is P and Y is Q (such that Q implies not-P), and furthermore, say that X refers to R and Y refers to R. It would follow that R is P and not-P, which is a logical contradiction. If R is a composite entity of some kind, then this is not a problem, because P and not-P can be predicated of different parts of R, and thus the logical contradiction is avoided. However, if R is absolutely simple, then this move is impossible, because P and not-P must be predicated of one and the same thing with no way to separate or segregate the predicates to avoid the logical contradiction.

    With regards to (2), you have a similar situation. Say that X is P and Y is Q (such that Q implies not-P), and furthermore, say that X refers to one aspect of R and Y refers to a different aspect of R. This would not be a logical contradiction, because the contradictory predicates can be separated or segregated into different aspects of R. But I would argue, once again, that this only makes sense if R is a composite entity in which the different aspects of R correspond to different parts of R. After all, how can an absolutely simple entity have different aspects? What do these different aspects correspond to in it? They would all correspond to exactly the same thing, and thus there would be no basis for the differentiation between the different aspects, except within the human mind, projecting the differences upon the absolutely simple entity.

    So, at the end of the day, I think that if X differs from Y in our mind, and that difference does not only occur in our minds, but also occurs in the reality of R, then the only way to believe that X and Y each correspond to the same R is if that common R is a composite entity.

    I wrote earlier that God the Son is simply God's knowledge (or idea) of Himself, and God the Holy Spirit is God's love of Himself. Necessarily, there is an oppositional distinction between the thinker and the thought: the latter is generated by the former. Ditto for the lover and the act of love. Hence we cannot speak of thinker and thought, or lover and love, as being identical, as such. We can however suppose that there is a single action (call it "thinking-loving" for want of a better term) in the Godhead, that this action is inherently relational, and that the three persons are the three poles of the relationship. Does that make sense?

    It does make sense, but I suppose my question is why thinker and thought, or lover and love, when it comes to God cannot be “identical, as such”, by virtue of divine simplicity? Sure, it is inconceivable and unimaginable, but that’s the whole point of divine simplicity, i.e. to indicate that which transcends our minds to understand.

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  145. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  146. Something like modalism would be perfectly OK for explaining the distinction between, say, God's justice and God's mercy - they're just the same thing, viewed under different aspects. We can even suppose that in God, justice = mercy. But we cannot suppose that in God, thinker = thought, or lover = love. These are oppositional relationships. Opposition precludes the possibility of there being a real identity between the two terms of the relationship. Hence there must be a real distinction. Aquinas argues the same thing here: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1028.htm#article3

    But one could also make the argument that the oppositional relationship is only possible in a composite entity. In an absolutely simple entity, there cannot be such an oppositional relationship, because there can be no duality within that which has no real distinction. Eckhart makes a similar point when he says that God is distinct in that he is indistinct, i.e. esse indistinctum.

    Furthermore, the only reason to argue that the divine attributes are one and the same is divine simplicity, even though there is no way to conceive of how this could be the case. If we are now allowing duality and real distinction within God, then why not do the same for the divine attributes? In other words, why not argue that the divine justice is really distinct from the divine mercy?

    By the way, here's a good article on Catholic teaching on the Trinity which you may find helpful: http://www.catholicprimer.org/garrigou/works/cr2-27.htm (it's also got quotes from Council declarations and from Cardinal Cajetan). Cheers.

    Thanks for that. I read it in the past, but I suppose its worth re-reading.

    Take care.

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  147. dguller,

    And the answer is?

    I have to run (dinner date with the wife), so I'll leave you with a hint: there're only two sentences in the quotation -- ergo, the answer must be in one of them.

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  148. To have a logical contradiction one has to claim that Something is X and Not X at the same time and in the same sense.

    The only way to have a logical contradiction in a doctrine if for that doctrine to claim God is X essence and Not X essence at the same time in the same sense or X persons & Not X persons etc...

    There is no reason why you can't say God contains no real distinctions physically & metaphysically but does contain real distinctions that are incomprehensible & in principle unknowable to the human mind that are not real physical & metaphysical distinctions at the same time and in the same sense.

    God is thus both "Incomprehensible real opposing mystery distinctions" and "no real physical & metaphysical distinctions" at the same time and in the same sense.

    Or to put it simply God is relative persons and absolute essence.

    Or Three divine Persons in One divine Nature..etc..

    How can any honest person ever claim the above is a logical contradiction even if we live in a godless universe?

    They can't unless they equivocate without pity!

    Feser was right anyone who claims there is a logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity simply doesn't understand the doctrine.

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  149. Can anyone who is both brave and pathologically stupid answer the following challenge?

    How is saying God is both "Incomprehensible Real Relations in opposition one to another that are not any type of real Physical or metaphysical relations" and "Simple"( defined "as not having any type of real physical & or metaphysical relations") at the same time and in the same sense a logical contradiction?

    Any brave arseholes wanna try?

    Mind you it requires dealing with actual intelligent content & not stupid letter formulas that let certain people equivocate without pity.

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  150. If you answer the question wrong you are stupid for not seeing what is in front of your face.

    If you get it right then you are stupid for wasting your time answering the bloody obvious.

    If you are the second type it is forgivable by moi.

    The first type not so much.......

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  151. Here is the formula.


    R=God i.e. the Reality of being God who is BeingItself and Pure Act.

    E=Not having any real physical or metaphysical distinctions.

    X=being some mysterious incomprehensible type of real distinction in opposition one to another that are not seperate that are not any type of real physical or metaphysical distinctions.

    E=X=R

    No logical contradiction I can see.

    I think the problem was somebody who shall remain nameless was treating this formula is E+X=R.

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  152. dguller,

    "That is true. What I meant by “separable” is that one could exist without the other."

    It is sufficient to point out a counter-example for you to revise your functional definition of "real distinction"

    Ie. drop the separability nonsense as what defines a real distinction. It is only making it harder for you.

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  153. @dguller,
    Although it isn't an example of simplicity (which I don't believe applies to any intelligent being), you can sort of get to "different persons with one essence" from the psychiatric example of multiple personalities in one mind. However, that is still a controversial diagnosis within psychiatry.

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  154. @dguller:

    I asked: "On what basis do you think that Aquinas thought existence could exist without essence?

    You replied: "First, because Being Itself exists independently of whether any created essence is brought into existence."

    Aquinas held that God's existence is identical with his essence.

    "Second, because God's existence does not exist with or without essence. That would presuppose a distinction between God's existence and essence. But God's existence is his essence, meaning that they are one and the same. They are two different ways of conceiving the exact same underlying reality."

    And therefore God's existence does not and cannot exist without His essence.

    "Third, there is a logical priority of existence over essence. A thing cannot exist as a particular kind of being, unless it first exists."

    I think you're confusing Aquinas with Sartre here.

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  155. Of course then there is this term used called "total identity" that is supposed to show logical contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity.

    I never understood what it is other then some weird sophistical equivocal term used by some to redefine the doctrine of the Trinity to mean something other than the actual doctrine of the Trinity.

    But how is God not in "total identity" both a divine essence that has no real physical and metaphysical distinctions and is also really distinct divine relations that are not in anyway really distinct in the physical & metaphysical sense but really distinct in some mysterious incomprehensible way beyond human reason?

    We can know God is absolutely divinely simply based on reason alone according to Natural Theology without any prompting from divine revelation.

    What we learn in this process is God as God absolutely contains no real physical and metaphysical distinctions.

    But that is as far as we can go with reason so if there is some type of mysterious real distinctions in God that are not physical or metaphysical then how could we say anything positive about them apart from what divine revelation tells us?

    We can't! So why waste your time? It's like trying to count every potential number.

    Good luck.

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  156. @Saunders

    Since you are Russian, you are more intelligent than most Americans. Therefore, I will predict that you will leave the Roman Catholic Church in Moscow within the next 18 month.

    I don’t think that’s an accurate description of Americans. Naturally, Russians like to think of themselves as somehow superior, but I don’t find it true, though flattering.
    I rather like y'all.

    I speak from personal experience, I was a Catholic for many years and then an Eastern Orthodox for a few years. After this time attend a Protestant service, you will find fulfillment there.

    Sorry to hear you left the Church.
    You see, you mentioning the word ‘fulfillment’ makes you suspect. Sorry if I misread it (and you), but I’m not becoming Catholic for aesphetic reasons, nor am I pursuing ‘spiritual enlightment’ or ‘experiences’. My first response would be 'I'm not looking for 'fulfullment' as nowadays commonly understood’. It's has little to do with my 'feelings' or whatever. I mostly think of these matters in terms of duty (and gratitude to God), not Church-shopping.

    I always had my doubts about these organization because they could not adequately explain certain Bible passages clearly.

    That has not been my experience. Which ones?.. At any rate, I don’t quite see how that could make a serious case for positive doubt.

    Once I spoke the Protestants it was like, hey somebody truly understands the Bible. The Bible is makes more sense and is easier to understand than Catholics or Orthodox claim. It should be since the Bible was originally written to people with limited educations. So it must not be that difficult to understand.

    When fit in the procrustean bed of 'sola scriptura' and Protestant bias? I'm going to have to repeat myself.
    You are, it would seem, at least implicitly arguing for 'sola scriptura', a position I found absurd as a non-believer and still do. I'm with St. Augustine on this one, the authority of the Catholic Church and all that. Again, the ability of individuals to present the Bible well seems irrelevant when trying to discover God's Church, the one mentioned in the Bible, eh?
    I believe that Catholicism and Christianity (being ultimately the same thing) stand or fall together.
    I can even think of some reasons (Catholicism, God forbid, shown to be for some reason false) that would make me a theist practicing a version of a 'natural religion' the sort of Aquinas describes, but not a Protestant.

    *continued*

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  157. *continued*

    *...the sort Aquinas described*


    One fact about the Papacy that was quite bothersome for me, was the fact that they had Greek names. Thinks about this carefully and you will see why this is very bothersome.

    And?.. I’m well aware of that. The first Pope was of Jewish background (heh), and yet he came to bear a Greek name (well, kind of, ‘a name in Greek’). Greek even was the liturgical language of the Roman church in the first centuries ('Kyrie, kyrie eleison' still being there), and there were of course Greek Popes. I don't find it at all bothersome, though I like Latin better.
    * If that fact is somehow supposed to assault papal supremacy/reinforce EO position, look up what Popes with very Greek names like, say, ‘Damasus’, ‘Agatho’ and ‘Gregory’ thought of their position and authority as successors of St. Peter. *

    I have also observed and statistic record that over 90% of converts to the Catholic church leave within 2 years. The honeymoon wears off quickly. The bulk of people who stay are cradle Catholics who stay mainly out of familiarity, and not because of any joy they receive from being a member of their local parish. Catholics are some of grumpiest people I know, and makes them difficult to work with.


    Impressive record! Would be somewhat intriguing to see the data. Then again, as you probably realise, it is totally irrelevant. I can only hope I will persevere, standing firm in the Faith.

    I will avoid responding to your (mildly insulting) generalisations about people’s reasons for not abandoning the Church, and I myself can sympathise with Catholics being grumpy - again, that has not been my experience - now that we’re all in dire straights.

    For example, I find myself grumbing about the New Mass, music being bad, sermons sometimes being vague and mushy, etc. I’m of an opinion that (divine) truth is the only relevant factor here.
    All in all, I think you’ve made a terrible bet.
    Are you positively sure you had a good reason for leaving the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?


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  158. I do have my BA in psychology and I do know that some might describe someone with multiple personalities as actually having only one personality that is fragmented into parts.

    Of course spiritually & metaphysically someone with that condition would still have only one soul.

    It's an interesting metaphor for the Trinity like St Patrick's proverbial Shamrock.

    Or Frank Sheed's metaphor of three men sharing the same identical soul.

    But in the end all it is is a metaphor.

    The human soul is physically simple but not metaphysically simple so it can't be Simple like God is simple.

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  159. dguller,

    You (earlier): I'll leave others to make up their own minds about that quote, but I'd like to ask you one thing. When Augustine says "whatever is said of that simple multiplicity", what is "that" supposed to be referring to, if not to God himself?

    Me (earlier): Augustine himself provides the answer to your question. And he provides the answer to your question in the very passage you have quoted.

    You (earlier): And the answer is?

    Me (earlier): I have to run (dinner date with the wife), so I'll leave you with a hint: there're only two sentences in the quotation -- ergo, the answer must be in one of them.

    - - - - -

    Me (many hours later (i.e., now)):

    The answer is that the "that" in "whatever is said of that simple multiplicity" refers to "simple multiplicity" -- as in that simple multiplicity. (A no-brainer, right? (Just like the hint I left behind.))

    Possibly you meant to ask, "When Augustine says 'whatever is said of that simple multiplicity', what is 'simple multiplicity' supposed to be referring to, if not to God Himself?"

    If that is what you meant to ask, then one answer might be that 'simple multiplicity' is a kind of package... which package is comprised of two things: 1) 'simple' -- which refers to, attaches to or has to do with God Himself; and, 2) 'multiplicity' -- which refers to, attaches to or has to do with the variety of ascriptions or predicates we employ (e.g., 'strong', 'just' and 'wise') when speaking of God Himself.

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  160. God is His own Essence.

    Aquinas also taught Essence proceeds Existence in metaphysical priority since something has to be what it is before it can actually be.

    Further more God is His Own Essence and His Own Existence and God's Essence is only notionally distinct from His Existence.

    The doctrine of the Divine Simplicity teaches God contains no real physical and or metaphysical distinctions.

    Human reason leads us via philosophy to the above conclusion and is not at all capable even in principle of excluding any other type of real distinction in God other than physical and or metaphysical.

    Why would the Catholic Church or any Church Father, Saint Doctor or Aquinas himself ever claim the divine simplicity absolutely excludes all real distinctions in God beyond the physical and metaphysical?

    There is no way human reason could even in principle come to that conclusion.

    It is safe to conclude when Aquinas and other Thomistic Theologians say that the divine nature excludes all "composition" they restrict the term composition solely in terms of
    the physical and metaphysical.
    They are the upper limits of human reason.

    Indeed the only way you could exclude all real distinctions from God beyond the physical and the metaphysical is threw divine revelation.

    If you believe the Koran and the teachings of Islam are true divine revelation which came from God then you could claim the divine simplicity excludes absolutely all real distinctions in God beyond the physical and metaphysical.

    You wouldn't come to the above conclusion by reason alone but because God threw his Prophet told you so.

    OTOH if the New Testament, Apostolic Tradition and God's True Church are the true sources of divine revelation then you must affirm there are real relations in God that are really distinct (thought not separate) from one another but their real distinction is not any type of physical or metaphysical distinction.

    For Atheists who deny the existence of a Classic God & or god concepts in general much less the Unitarian Allah or the Triune God of the Christians that is fine with me.

    But confusing the different concepts and misrepresenting them & being obstinate about it only serves to make sure nobody will ever take you seriously.

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  161. Hi dguller,

    Thanks for your comments. You ask: "How can an absolutely simple entity have different aspects?" Short answer: if the activity which characterizes that entity is one which inherently involves some kind of opposition, or multi-polarity (as knowing and loving do), then the entity can have irreducibly distinct modes. (I prefer this term to "aspects," and the Catholic Encyclopedia even uses the term "modes of existence" in its article on the Trinity at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm .)

    You ask, "I suppose my question is why thinker and thought, or lover and love, when it comes to God cannot be 'identical, as such', by virtue of divine simplicity?" but then you agree that this is inconceivable. Thinker and thought can indeed be two terms of poles of the same (relational) activity, but they cannot both be the same term in that relationship. That would be a logical contradiction.

    Finally, you ask what "identical" means, and you suggest that it can mean one of two things: (1) X and Y both refer to the exact same R, or (2) X and Y each refer to different aspects of a common R. When we say that each Divine Person is identical with the Divine Essence, we mean that each Person refers to the same Essence (under one of its irreducibly distinct modes of existence). When we say that the Persons are distinct from each other, we mean that they refer to distinct modes of existence of the same essence. As far as I can tell, that makes sense. Cheers.


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  162. First, what is the difference between a quantitative number and a non-quantitative number?

    There's not really any answer to this without going through the entire theory of the categorical/transcendental distinction. But numbers aren't unique here: there are categorical relations and transcendental relations, and our words for categorical relations can with good reason apply to things in other categories than relation, like place or action.

    Second, [1] wouldn’t this account mean that numbers are transcendentals? [2] And if that is true, then are numbers interconvertible with being, one, good, true, and so on? [3] Furthermore, if numbers are transcendentals, then wouldn’t that mean that all of reality is numerical? [4] And if that is true, then why isn’t it also quantitative?

    All good questions. [1] Some uses of number terms will be transcendental, yes, just as some uses of relation terms or substance terms are transcendental, but it wouldn't follow that all of them are, or that they would directly imply things requiring the category of quantitative (like spatial continua or separable units). [2] Not all transcendentals are coextensive with being -- it's easy to come up with examples.
    'Accident', for instance, is a transcendental, since it is not a species in a category but something that may be said of nine of the ten categories; but it is certainly not coextensive with being, since there are substances as well as accidents. The basic history here is that Aristotle used being to prove once and for all that it was impossible to classify everything by genus and species, and concluded that the same argument could be run with one; the scholastics added others like true and good that would yield the same result in the same argument. But once the result was obtained it was pretty obvious that there are other things, not as extensive as these, that also escape even a maximally comprehensive genus-species classification: 'genus', 'accident', etc. [3] There is a sense of 'numerical' that will be transcendental, and possibly even coextensive with being; at least some scholastics used something like such a sense when interpreting the famous verse from Wisdom of Solomon about God have made all with measure and weight and number, which they did not take this to be a claim specifically about the mathematical. But individual number-terms cannot be assumed to stretch so far -- indeed, there's some reason to think that 'one' is the only number term that can be a coextensive property of being without becoming simply metaphorical, although I don't know that anyone has actually put such reasons into a proper proof.

    What makes this all relevant, of course, is to say that God is not in a genus, or that God has no accidents, is to say that what applies properly to God cannot be categorical; this means that your numerical argument works perfectly for quantity. But since numerical terms aren't used only in the category of quantity (as the ten categories and nine categories of accident themselves witness), they admit of a transcendental use, and your argument would fail for such transcendental uses.

    By the way, regardless of how this discussion turns out, I appreciate you taking the time to engage these ideas with me.

    It's nice to see actual argument worth taking seriously on this subject; and yours certainly have been, although I think we've repeatedly run up against the limits of a comments thread for examining these matters. And it's especially good for looking at the positions of scholastics like Aquinas because it's how scholastics like Aquinas looked at their own positions.

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  163. QUOTE"It is of faith, and is thus enunciated by the Vatican Council: "God, as being one, sole, absolutely simple and immutable spiritual substance, is to be declared as really and essentially distinct from the world (which is composite and changeable)." (41)
    In the body of the article many proofs from reason are given for this conclusion. They have their foundation in the doctrine of the preceding articles, which is here recapitulated, and in the truths that God is the first Being, the first Cause, pure Act, and the self-subsisting Being.
    1) From the very start, composition of many kinds is excluded, such as that of quantitative parts, of matter and form, of suppositum and nature, of essence and existence, of genus and differentia, of substance and accident. This means the exclusion of all composition, both physical and metaphysical.
    2) Every composite is posterior to its component parts, and is dependent on them; but God is the first Being;
    (42) therefore He is absolutely simple."END QUOTE

    -page 191 THE ONE GOD by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O. P. a commentary on the summa

    As we can see contrary to the misreadings of some even Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange did not understand the divine simplicity to exclude all real distinctions(which are then ad boc extended by a certain person to include the mysterious incomprehensible real distinctions between the divine persons) in God only real physical & metaphysical distinctions are meant by saying God is absolutely simple.

    Thus by definition the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be in contradiction to the divine simplicity.

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  164. George L.
    Like you i've always accepted Divine simplicity and Trinity on the authority of the Catholic church. My head just cannot seem to get around to that level of metaphysical abstraction that Brandon and Scott posses. Thanks again to Brandon and Dguller and for the exchange

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  165. BenYachov:
    You are just **** because I yelled at you one of the last times he & I went at it. For what I barely remember & maybe I was wrong to do that to you since you where sort of my ally.
    Oh, who am I kidding I overeacted when I bit your head off Green. I am sorry for that.


    I would not criticise you without a reason, regardless of my feelings (and I don't even remember that incident). But I am glad of your offer of apology, because it shows that you are not simply interested in being a jerk, and that you are prepared to be reasonable. In light of that, I offer the following:

    Why should I be "polite" to the likes of him when I regard willfully misrepresenting Catholic/Christian doctrine to be the height of rudeness?

    You should be polite because you have a moral obligation to respect the others with whom you communicate, that is, with whom you interact as a member of a community. Your bad behaviour is offensive — it is a moral offence, and thus you have a duty to refrain from such behaviour.

    (1) Most obviously and directly, it is an offence against the person whom you insult. Being wrong is not a justification for abusing someone. At most, if you think your interlocutor is dishonest, or trolling, or otherwise not earning respect, then do not say anything at all.

    (2) It is an offence against Prof. Feser, who offers us hospitality in letting us post comments to a site that bears his name and lies under his authority. Even when he is chastising someone, the Professor does not use the sort of language you use, nor does he berate people without justification. Those of us who take advantage of the opportunity he provides us to post here should follow his example.

    (3) It is an offence against me, and all the other commenters and readers of this site. We do not come here to witness shouting matches and temper tantrums. We read and write comments here to participate in serious reasoned discussions, and intemperate outbursts waste our time and wear on our patience.

    (4) It is an offence against decency. Not only is it rude to me and everyone else here to make us wade through flamewars, the foul language you use is beyond the pale. Perhaps some people nowadays keep their pales far away and don't mind obscene language, but I do. I shouldn't have to be exposed to it on this site, nor should anyone else.

    (5) It is an offence against St. Thomas. You are quick to put yourself forward as representing the Thomistic view, but if that representation includes nasty judgements, four-letter words, and the like, then you are encouraging the bad misapprehensions that many people have of Scholastic philosophy, and its cultural environment. In the very act of claiming to defend true philosophy, you are undermining the work that people like Ed are trying so hard to accomplish.

    (6) It is an offence against Christianity and the Church. Just as a failure to treat arguments with intellectual patience reflects poorly on philosophical positions, so your behaviour also reflects on your claims to speak for Catholic Christianity. Tap mentioned scandal: it's not a sin we hear much about any more, but it is a grave matter nonetheless. Uncharitable behaviour by a Christian is bad enough; but done in the context of representing his religion draws further shame upon it. You need to consider this seriously.

    (7) It is an offence against you and your family. This is not the most prominent of forums, but it is public, and world-wide. How you comport yourself here reflects on you and your family, of whom you are also a representative. As a father and husband, do want to be viewed as someone who cannot control himself? Do you teach your children to respond to those who challenge them with obscene language? Always remember that your words have a larger context than just the preceding post on one web page.

    [cont'd…]

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  166. [continued…]

    In short, you do a disservice to our little community when you fail to exercise some modest self-control. I do not abuse you, not do the other regulars; I expect the same courtesy in return. An argument that is not going your way is no excuse for unleashing such uncivil conduct on the rest of us.

    You know Green that he does this. You know he repeats the same arguments he has been corrected on over & over & ignores his opponents. You know his critique is nothing but a straw man & has no value as an argument against the truth of the doctrine. Also he needs the last word so he can repeat his nonsense and pretend he wasn't answered.

    BenYachov, you are the last person to be commenting on alleged needs to get the last word! Someone who keeps posting a particular view has obviously not been convinced that that view is wrong, that's all. (Or he is a troll, in which case you should not reply at all.) Perhaps the person is simply not capable of understanding (certainly not the case in this particular situation — but even if it were, that would make your abuse all the worse). Or perhaps someone fails to understand because nobody has explained the counter-arguments very well. Why is it, my friend, that in all these endless exchanges, you have never hurled vile epithets against yourself for being such a lousy teacher, eh? Did it never even cross your mind that the reason your repeated expostulations did not have the desired effect was because you were not doing a good job? What happened to your intellectual honesty, your sense of justice now? (Notice how much progress has been made with Brandon's recent posts on this topic. In fact, I've appreciated his contributions myself. Thanks, Brandon.)

    Now, to be quite clear, this is not personal. I of course have no objection to all your other posts which are not rude and ill-mannered — in fact, that's most of them. And you mention that others have been crass on occasion too; this is true, and frankly I am just as dismayed at those comments, regardless of who is making them. This site has a more civil tone than most other discussion, on or off the Internet; perhaps that makes the exceptions stand out all the more. But it really shouldn't be that hard for all of us to maintain that standard all the time. All I am asking is that you — and me, and everyone else — refrain from posting comments that are petty, nasty, or foul-mouthed.

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  167. @Green

    What you should have done is let the thread die instead of pouring gasoline on it. You did this last time & I cursed at you for it but I am not going to do that now. Instead I will tell you I already have my own Father confessor and I make use of him. Also if the blog master wants to take me to task then he is free too do so it is his blog. It's not my blog and it is not yours either.

    >You should be polite because you have a moral obligation to respect the others with whom you communicate, that is, with whom you interact as a member of a community. Your bad behaviour is offensive — it is a moral offence, and thus you have a duty to refrain from such behavior.

    I am sorry but I don't believe I have any obligation to be civil to any person with whom I have a good faith belief is at the time not arguing in an honest way with me or others. Not going to happen. At best you can ask me to tone it down but I don't back down. It is not in my nature. I believe I am justified & even you admit that Prof Feser berates people whom he believes deserve it.

    >Now, to be quite clear, this is not personal. I of course have no objection to all your other posts which are not rude and ill-mannered — in fact, that's most of them. And you mention that others have been crass on occasion too; this is true, and frankly I am just as dismayed at those comments, regardless of who is making them.

    You have a sense of delicacy against harshness. That is laudable but I am by nature a street fighter type.

    So I will take your opinions & advise under advisement but even my wife knows better then to try and change me.

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  168. >(Notice how much progress has been made with Brandon's recent posts on this topic. In fact, I've appreciated his contributions myself. Thanks, Brandon.)

    He obviously has forgotten more about modal logic then any here outside of the PhD's have learned.

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  169. Vincent:

    You ask: "How can an absolutely simple entity have different aspects?" Short answer: if the activity which characterizes that entity is one which inherently involves some kind of opposition, or multi-polarity (as knowing and loving do), then the entity can have irreducibly distinct modes. (I prefer this term to "aspects," and the Catholic Encyclopedia even uses the term "modes of existence" in its article on the Trinity at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm .)

    First, it seems that you are arguing that the divine persons are different modes of the divine essence. Is that your position?

    Second, even if you call “aspects” “modes” instead, the point is that if X has different modes, then X must be a composite entity (of some kind), especially if the different modes each correspond to something distinct in X. At least, that’s my argument.

    You ask, "I suppose my question is why thinker and thought, or lover and love, when it comes to God cannot be 'identical, as such', by virtue of divine simplicity?" but then you agree that this is inconceivable. Thinker and thought can indeed be two terms of poles of the same (relational) activity, but they cannot both be the same term in that relationship. That would be a logical contradiction.

    First, divine simplicity is also inconceivable, and yet that does not affect its truth.

    Second, Neoplatonic thinkers have long argued that they can both be the same term, even if our discursive minds cannot comprehend it. After all, our discursive minds are necessarily saturated with composition and distinction, and thus are incapable of understanding or comprehending that which is non-discursive and simple, except by an act of fusion and identity with the unnameable and unthinkable One. Here’s Sells: “Predications imply that a subject engages in an activity, that there is a ‘remainder’ within the subject that is not that activity itself. Plotinus evokes an act without subject to overcome such remainders. He evokes an act so utterly complete and instantaneous that the subject is fused into the act to the point of no longer existing. At this point one is not aware of acting; indeed the one has completely merged into the act. In terms like ‘awakening without awakener’, the fusion of normal grammatical polarities reaches a culmination of semantic intensity” (Michael A. Sells, Mystical Languages of Unsaying, p. 25).

    Finally, you ask what "identical" means, and you suggest that it can mean one of two things: (1) X and Y both refer to the exact same R, or (2) X and Y each refer to different aspects of a common R. When we say that each Divine Person is identical with the Divine Essence, we mean that each Person refers to the same Essence (under one of its irreducibly distinct modes of existence). When we say that the Persons are distinct from each other, we mean that they refer to distinct modes of existence of the same essence. As far as I can tell, that makes sense.

    It seems that you would accept (2) as an appropriate definition of X is identical to Y, in this context. I have argued that if (2) is true, then R must be a composite entity of some kind, and whether you want to call the “parts” involved, aspects, or modes, or whatever, each mode must correspond to something in R in order to truly be a mode of R, and not just a projection of our minds upon R.

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  170. The willful stupidity & repeating of invalid arguments already answered continues....

    >,R must be a composite entity of some kind,

    The point is R is not something that is either a physical composition or metaphysical composition.

    Aquinas and the other Thomists, the Catholic Encylopedia(which everyone knows has a hard scholastic bias vs the other schools), and Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange all identify the divine essence's lack of "composition" as a lack of real physical and metaphysical distinction.

    Nothing more.


    Just as we don't understand God's absolute inability to make 2+2=5 to be a deficiency in His being omnipotent we only understand something having "composition" if said composition is either really physical or metaphysical.

    If there are Inconceivable & Mysterious opposing real distinctions in the Godhead(that are not either physical or metaphysical distinctions) their is no reason why their so called "composition" isn't anything but composition in a nominal sense.

    There is no logical reason why the mysterious real relations can't all be the same identical nature(E) that is not really distinct in either a physical or metaphysical manner.

    These mysterious distinctions are real because we have God's word on the manner.

    We can't know threw natural reason alone God isn't at all really distinct in a mysterious inconceivable manner unless we accepted Muslim divine revelation over Christian.

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  171. @Mr. Green

    If I am a really bad teacher can you explain to me what is unclear in my
    "October 15, 2013 at 9:45 AM" post & why any rational human being should continue to argue the doctrine of the Trinity is in conflict with the divine simplicity?

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  172. Brandon:

    There's not really any answer to this without going through the entire theory of the categorical/transcendental distinction. But numbers aren't unique here: there are categorical relations and transcendental relations, and our words for categorical relations can with good reason apply to things in other categories than relation, like place or action.

    But then why both with a categorical relation at all? There is no categorical relation of “one”, or “good”, or “true”, or any of the other transcendentals, because they apply to all categories. So, why the specific exemptions for number, relation, and so on? Why do they have to be categories at all under this schema?

    [1] Some uses of number terms will be transcendental, yes, just as some uses of relation terms or substance terms are transcendental, but it wouldn't follow that all of them are, or that they would directly imply things requiring the category of quantitative (like spatial continua or separable units).

    My problem with this response is that Aquinas does not make it when discussing this issue at ST 1.30.3 and QDP 9.7.

    First, he does make a distinction between the transcendental and the categorical, as you have said. However, with regards to the former, he never says that countable numbers can be predicated of anything transcendental, but basically says that when you are talking about transcendental “numbers”, you are actually talking about transcendental unity (i.e. “a thing is undivided in itself”) and transcendental multiplicity or plurality (i.e. “a certain thing is undivided in itself, and distinct from another; i.e. one of them is not the other”). That’s it. He never says that you can count these individuals from a transcendental perspective. What he does say is that when numbers are predicated of God, they “bear only a metaphorical sense in God” (ST 1.30.3), and that metaphor is primarily referring to “excess” (i.e. X > Y), which denotes “his eminence over all creatures” (QDP 9.7).

    Second, he argues that “all plurality is a consequence of division” (ST 1.30.3) and that “every division or distinction causes plurality of some kind” (QDP 9.7), which implies that there is division or distinction iff there is plurality (or multitude). The question is where numbers fit into division, distinction and plurality (or multitude). Aquinas has argued that “it is of the very nature of multitude that it should be composed of units” (ST 1.30.3), and thus if number necessarily involves distinction (i.e. the number 2 is distinct from the number 3, for example) and distinction necessarily involves multitude, and multitude necessarily involves units, then number necessarily involves units, and thus quantity of some kind, as you have said. So, it is impossible, according to Aquinas’ own framework, to have countable numbers that do not involve units, and thus must be under the category of quantity.

    Third, he argues that “division is incompatible with the perfection of divine simplicity” (QDP 9.7). I know that you make a distinction between distinction and division. You have to, because if all distinctions implies division, and vice versa, then any distinction between the divine persons would be “incompatible with the perfection of divine simplicity”. My question is what is the difference between a distinction and a division. It seems that Aquinas uses them interchangeably.

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  173. Not all transcendentals are coextensive with being -- it's easy to come up with examples.

    But that depends upon how you want to define “transcendental”. Do you define it as anything outside the categories? Or do you define it as that which applies to all the categories? Accident would fit the former, but not the latter.

    What makes this all relevant, of course, is to say that God is not in a genus, or that God has no accidents, is to say that what applies properly to God cannot be categorical; this means that your numerical argument works perfectly for quantity. But since numerical terms aren't used only in the category of quantity (as the ten categories and nine categories of accident themselves witness), they admit of a transcendental use, and your argument would fail for such transcendental uses.

    But the question remains whether such a transcendental use has any sense at all. After all, you would have to purge all quantitative elements from transcendental numbers, and what would that leave you with? Can you count without including concepts of addition, units, and so on, which are paradigmatically quantitative? And if you cannot count, then how can you say that there are three divine persons? I suppose that for your argument to work, you would have to show what differentiates a quantitative number from a transcendental number. I’ve argued that the latter refers to either transcendental multiplicity (when taken literally) or the eminence of God over creation (when taken metaphorically). But that’s it.

    Any thoughts?

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  174. >But since numerical terms aren't used only in the category of quantity........

    I've been trying to say as much after a thousand posts with my "Counting from 3 to -2 example".

    But it's in one ear out the other with certain people.

    "-2" isn't something that Aquinas would call a "Quantitative number" because of his realism in regards to numbers.

    Two less than nothing doesn't count anything real.

    But that doesn't mean you can't count Father, Son & Holy Spirit as "three" divine persons or Goodness, Will as "two" divine attributes.

    Why is something so simple so hard for some people?

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  175. >What he does say is that when numbers are predicated of God, they “bear only a metaphorical sense in God” (ST 1.30.3),

    Here the ex-Muslim Atheist equivocates between "numerical terms" and "numbers".

    Much like he equivocates between "no composition either physical or metaphysical" and his own novelty taught by no scholastic "no composition of any kind".

    How does he not get any of this?

    It really isn't hard?

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  176. (ST 1.30.3),

    The real question you have to ask yourself is what does Aquinas mean by the term "number"?

    Try googling the pdf essay "THOMISTS AND THOMAS AQUINAS ON THE FOUNDATION OF MATHEMATICS by
    ARMAND MAURER"

    Enough of the equivocating already!

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  177. @Ben Yachov

    "Why is something so simple so hard for some people?"

    Well, it just is. And I do not deny that what you are defending is the truth. But at best, I can sorta kinda get my head around it for a little, but not for long. It reminds me of a professor I had for Kant. He was so clear, you wondered why it had seemed so hard to read. But as soon as I left the class, the fog descended again.

    To some of us, the Trinity is just a mystery. I accept that. But that's as far as I can get. And I assure you, it isn't willful here, with me, it's just that I don't get it.

    Now, maybe I could if I could only look at it in just the right way. But that is hard to get someone to do, however willing. You have to hit upon it just right.

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  178. @BenYachov:

    "Much like he equivocates between 'no composition either physical or metaphysical' and his own novelty taught by no scholastic 'no composition of any kind'."

    Well, strictly speaking, in Scholastic thought those two are equivalent and the doctrine of divine simplicity does indeed mean that there's no composition of any kind in God; it's just that "physical" and "metaphysical" are the only kinds of composition there are.

    Probably what you have in mind here is that there can be real distinctions in God that don't entail either kind of composition. And if so, you're right: so far as I know, no Scholastic ever taught that God is free of all real distinctions, the doctrine of the Trinity being the most obvious counterexample. It's just that any such distinction can't be understood as implying that God is composed of "parts" in any way.

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  179. BenYachov: So I will take your opinions & advise under advisement

    Thanks. And of course I would not try to stop you from defending a point, especially a true one... any more that you can expect me to back down from challenging unjustified rudeness when I see it! All I ask is that you do it in a style that respects the other people here. After all, in a certain sense this is our site, insofar as Prof. Feser lets us post here — we respect his generosity in respecting each other. So if you say you'll take that into consideration, then I've made my point, and I'm happy to shake hands.

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  180. BenYachov: If I am a really bad teacher can you explain to me what is unclear in my "October 15, 2013 at 9:45 AM" post & why any rational human being should continue to argue the doctrine of the Trinity is in conflict with the divine simplicity?

    As for this, I think George's response is exactly right: some things are just hard for some people to understand. I am sure there are things that are simple for me that you would not understand, or would have a hard time with — and vice versa. Everybody's different. And after all, the Trinity is perhaps the most complex topic for any human mind to deal with! As far as I'm concerned, someone who keeps pushing the issue is interested in learning — otherwise, he'd just dismiss the Trinity and refuse to face the arguments at all.

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  181. Russian brother wrote:
    >To some of us, the Trinity is just a mystery. I accept that. But that's as far as I can get. And I assure you, it isn't willful here, with me, it's just that I don't get it.

    Green wrote:
    >As for this, I think George's response is exactly right: some things are just hard for some people to understand.

    The issue for me is simply do you make a good faith effort to learn the proper definitions & terminology or do you have an agenda to make up your own?

    When a certain ex-Muslim Atheist writes:
    >There are two things that we know for certain about these doctrines: first, that divine simplicity means that the divine essence cannot involve real distinction of any kind,

    We all know as Scott points out that the divine simplicity does not exclude real distinction of any kind otherwise any kind of real distinction between divine persons is then automatically excluded.

    Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange the great Thomist Theologian and Philosopher and the Catholic Encyclopedia both identify the doctrine of divine simplicity as excluding physical and metaphysical only. They are not alone that is the entire Tradition.

    The ex-Muslim Atheist has claimed Lagrange holds his novel definition of DS. That is false. But then again we aren't dealing with someone who has trouble understanding the doctrine or the concept. We are dealing with a person who has dogmatically asserted the doctrine of the Trinity must be a logical contradiction. All his "arguments" are nothing more than cheap sophistry to allow him to argue a straw man. To redefine the teaching to uphold his claim that it is a logical contradiction.

    That is not the same as merely not getting it. I have no problem with a Protestant telling me "I don't understand what a Re-presentation of Christ's Once and For all Sacrifice is in your doctrine of the Mass?" But the one who insists on telling me it mean "Jesus is sacrificed again & dies again for our sins in the Mass because Calvary wasn't enough" & ignores me when I tell him he is wrong that earns a one way ticket to my bad side.

    The only way out is to admit you are wrong & not really trying to learn the doctrine. After a thousand posts and reading whole books on the subject I cannot believe it is a mere comprehension deficit.

    That is what I think.

    PS Scott good job with that last post.

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  182. >>"Much like he equivocates between 'no composition either physical or metaphysical' and his own novelty taught by no scholastic 'no composition of any kind'."

    >Well, strictly speaking, in Scholastic thought those two are equivalent and the doctrine of divine simplicity does indeed mean that there's no composition of any kind in God; it's just that "physical" and "metaphysical" are the only kinds of composition there are.

    I have been listening to dguller unclean horsecrap so long it is beginning to infect my orthodox purity.*

    We may only say there are real distinctions between the divine persons.

    Because they are not physical and metaphysical distinctions in terms of the divine essence there is no real distinction between the divine persons in terms of being God.

    *Side note a man went up to one of the Desert Fathers and said to him "Abba you are a fool". To which he replied "Yes I cannot argue with that". Additional abuse "Abba you are wicked, sinful, Slothful, lustful, lazy etc" to all of which the Desert Father replied "I cannot argue with that". Then the Man said "Abba you are a heretic" to which he relied loudly "I AM NOT!!!".

    Well enough rambling I am going to watch some British TV on the Net.

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  183. Scott:

    Well, strictly speaking, in Scholastic thought those two are equivalent and the doctrine of divine simplicity does indeed mean that there's no composition of any kind in God; it's just that "physical" and "metaphysical" are the only kinds of composition there are.

    Why can’t the divine relations be metaphysical parts?

    Probably what you have in mind here is that there can be real distinctions in God that don't entail either kind of composition. And if so, you're right: so far as I know, no Scholastic ever taught that God is free of all real distinctions, the doctrine of the Trinity being the most obvious counterexample. It's just that any such distinction can't be understood as implying that God is composed of "parts" in any way.

    If X and Y are really distinct in Z, then why can’t X and Y be considered parts of Z?

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  184. @BenYachov:

    Since you have quoted the Desert Fathers, which I absolutely love, allow me to quote this one. It is from the anonymous series, translation by SLG Benedicta Ward:

    "A brother questioned an old man, saying 'What is humility?' And the old man said, 'To do good to one who does evil to you.' The brother said, 'And if you do not reach this standard?' The old man said, 'You must go away and choose to be silent.'"

    How many of us can reach this exacting standard? We can at least try.

    note: lest I be misunderstood, I am not your Father (biological or otherwise), your Bishop or your Spiritual Counselor, so I have no authority over you. Besides, I am just as a hard ass with a short fuse and little patience for intellectual shenanigans. Nevertheless, Mr. Green's words are the words of wisdom and should be heeded.

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  185. Scott:

    Take angel A and angel B. A is really distinct from B, and A and B form a group C of angels.

    Why can't one say that A and B are parts of C?

    Also, one last question, if real distinction can be predicated of the divine essence, then why can't the divine attributes be really distinct, as well?

    Thanks.

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  186. >Why can’t the divine relations be metaphysical parts?

    I love being proven right. dguller doesn't want to discuss our Catholic & the general Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

    He wants to make up his own logically contradictory straw man doctrine & pretend it's our doctrine.

    1000 posts of this brain dead mishigoss & you people wonder why my nerves are freyed & why I bag on him?

    Good grief!

    @grod

    Considering you are a fellow hard ass & curmudgeon I will give even more weight to Mr. Green's words at your insistence.

    Cheers brother.

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  187. >Also, one last question, if real distinction can be predicated of the divine essence, then why can't the divine attributes be really distinct, as well?

    Natural Reason and Church authority have already determined there are no real physical or metaphysical distinctions in God/Divine Essence.

    If there is a mysterious distinction that is neither of the above you would need a divine revelation to tell you.

    I know of no such revelation from the OT, NT, Apostolic Tradition or God's one true Church on Earth.

    If you know of some fringe religion that has such a concept that might be interesting.

    But it would not be the God of Abraham & Aquinas.

    I've done all I could. I am skeptical it will sink in.

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  188. Scott:

    I still think that an argument can be made that bypasses this issue of whether the divine essence allows one kind of real distinction, while prohibiting other kinds of real distinction.

    Look at one divine person. That divine person is “composed” of the divine essence E, and of the differentiating factor that distinguishes that divine person from the other divine persons, which we can call X. E is one and the same in all divine persons, and thus E cannot be a distinguishing factor that explains the real distinction between the divine persons. Only X can do that, whatever X is supposed to be. After all, you cannot distinguish two things exclusively on the basis of what they have in common. Their distinction must be in terms of what is other than what they have in common. This is a principle that Aquinas himself accepts: “If then many gods existed, they would necessarily differ from each other. Something therefore would belong to one which did not belong to another” (ST 1.11.3). Therefore, X cannot be really identical to E, and thus X must be really distinct from E.

    And this is confirmed by Gilles Emery in his book on Aquinas’ doctrine of the Trinity. He writes in The Trinitarian Theology of St Thomas Aquinas (Oxford: 2010): “St Thomas rigorously forbids us to conceive the personal plurality as if it were a derivative of the divine essence: this leads to Sabellianism” (p. 122). He also says that the “alterity of persons [is] based on a relation-distinction, but not an alterity of essence, nature or substance” (p. 133), and that “the essence does no engendering” (p. 148).

    The question is what are the implications of saying that X is really distinct from E? I have argued that if E is Being Itself, then X cannot be Being Itself. And since anything other than Being Itself is a creature, then X must be a creature. But this is absurd, because then the divine persons would not exist prior to creation, because until creation, there would be no basis for distinguishing between them, and thus the Trinity is false.

    If X is not really distinct from E, then X must be really identical to E. But if X is really identical to E, then there is only E, and thus there is no longer any basis to distinguish between the divine persons, because you cannot distinguish things on the basis of what they have in common. And if there is only E, then there is only what they have in common, and thus the Trinity is false.

    Notice that this argument does not assume that there can be no real distinction in the divine essence at all. It only assumes that A and B cannot be distinguished solely on the basis of what they have in common.

    You replied to this argument in the past by stating that “such distinctions do arise from the divine essence is just what the doctrine of the Trinity (as I understand it) maintains” and that “the divine relations are supposed to be the same as the divine essence itself”. But the problem is that this position would violate the principle that A and B can only be distinguished on the basis of what they do not have in common, and it is part of the doctrine of the Trinity that the divine essence is formally and numerically the same in each divine person, and thus it cannot be the origin or basis for the real distinction between the divine persons. Whatever differentiates the divine persons cannot “arise from the divine essence” or “be the same as the divine essence itself”, as Emery has explicitly stated. In fact, the differentiating factor itself must be really distinct from the divine essence, but that leads to the absurdities that I mentioned above.

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  189. >why can't the divine attributes be really distinct, as well?

    Now we are back to equivocating between divine attributes & divine relations and or conflating the two!

    Not even an acknowledgment from the ex-Muslim Atheist that he got the doctrine of the divine simplicity totally wrong!

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  190. @dguller:

    The answer to all of your questions, I think, has to do with the order of the argument for the Trinity. (And just to make sure we know where we're at here, let's recap: you've been trying to show that this doctrine is in contradiction to the doctrine of divine simplicity; I've replied, without taking any position on the Trinity itself, that, so far as I can see, there's no contradiction between the two doctrines.)

    The order of that argument is as follows. We can establish via natural reason that God exists and is "simple" in the sense that He isn't in any way composed of parts; we can establish via natural reason that the Christian claim to special revelation is true; and finally, we learn from this revelation that God is triune, even though this is something natural reason alone can't tell us, indeed something that is incomprehensible to us even though it is and must be intelligible in itself. (Please note that I'm not claiming this is how people come to believe the doctrine in practice, or even defending the argument itself; I'm simply giving what I think is a fair and accurate, albeit quite brief, summary of the structure of the doctrine's rational foundation.)

    Now, if it's true that there are three Persons in God, then it must be possible to distinguish them in some way. But it's already been rationally established on other, independent grounds (grounds that we do understand) that God is not in any way composed of "parts." Thus we have to conclude that the Persons of the Trinity are not "parts" and that whatever it is that distinguishes them does not involve composition; each Person must be God's entire undivided (indeed indivisible) essence. In other words, we're driven to accept that there are (real) distinctions in God that don't represent any division into parts and don't indicate any sort of "composition."

    The doctrine itself says that we're not going to understand how this is possible. All we can do is see that it's not contradictory—as indeed it is not, unless there's something contradictory in the idea of a real distinction that doesn't imply any sort of composition. And I think that in attempting to show that there is such a contradiction, the best you could possibly do is to fall back on familiar examples—which won't do the job here, as we're expressly talking about an unfamiliar example, indeed one inaccessible to (our) natural reason.

    So to take your questions in order:

    [cont'd]

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  191. "Why can't the divine relations be metaphysical parts?"

    This question, as phrased, has more than one possible meaning, but I'm going to take it to mean How do we know the divine relations can't be metaphysical parts? The answer that we already know on other, naturally reasoned grounds that the doctrine of divine simplicity is true and therefore that the doctrine of the Trinity can't contradict it; thus, whatever the divine relations are positively (which we can't directly conceive), we know negatively that they can't be "parts."

    "If X and Y are really distinct in Z, then why can't X and Y be considered parts of Z?"

    In familiar cases they can be and I suppose usually are. In this instance they can't, and we're not expected to understand why if that means having any positive conception of how they differ. What we do know is that given the doctrine of divine simplicity, we can't interpret special revelation in any way that contradicts it.

    "Take angel A and angel B. A is really distinct from B, and A and B form a group C of angels.

    Why can't one say that A and B are parts of C?"

    As far as I can see, one could say that. We just can't extrapolate from that example to the Persons of the Trinity.

    "[I]f real distinction can be predicated of the divine essence, then why can't the divine attributes be really distinct, as well?"

    Because we already know via natural reason that they can't be. Here again, follow the logic of the argument: the existence of God, His simplicity, and the identity of His existence with His essence (with its implication that God can have "attributes" only in an analogical sense) are logically established first, on grounds other than special revelation; we (can) know these things to be true, so special revelation can't contradict them. To construe the doctrine of the Trinity in a way that contradicts what we know of God via natural reason would be to undermine the foundations of the doctrine itself.

    Now, I think what you really want here is a way to understand why the divine Persons aren't like the divine attributes in this way. That's entirely reasonable, but here again the doctrine itself says you're not going to be able to form any positive conception that will help; if the arguments are sound, then you have it on the highest possible Authority that they're not, and that's the best you're going to get.

    And again, the fact that we can't form a positive conception isn't evidence of contradiction. Indeed, the point of formulating the doctrine in the traditional way is precisely to avoid contradicting doctrines that can be established on purely rational grounds.

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  192. >I still think that an argument can be made that bypasses this issue of whether the divine essence allows one kind of real distinction, while prohibiting other kinds of real distinction.

    Like I said dguller is not here to discuss the Trinity we all believe in but redefine the doctrine to save his self made straw man dogma which is a logical contradiction.

    Also as I tried in vain to explain to this thick headed bigot the Trinity is not the product of reason it is Ad Hoc defined so you can't even in principle argue it.

    You either accept the definition as is or you don't.

    >If then many gods existed, they would necessarily differ from each other. Something therefore would belong to one which did not belong to another” (ST 1.11.3).

    Because the divine essence can't be divided or be really distinct either physically or metaphysically.

    Not hard.

    “St Thomas rigorously forbids us to conceive the personal plurality as if it were a derivative of the divine essence: this leads to Sabellianism” (p. 122). He also says that the “alterity of persons [is] based on a relation-distinction, but not an alterity of essence, nature or substance” (p. 133), and that “the essence does no engendering” (p. 148).

    Again the essence never divides or suffers physical or metaphysical composition. Sabellianism and modalism are the heresies that teach there are no real distinctions between the divine persons even mysteriously and that they are nothing more than personified divine attributes like Philo's Logos.

    Why do I bother?

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  193. (dguller posted again while I was composing my own last two posts, so let me make clear that those two posts aren't intended as a reply to his latest.)

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  194. On Modalism and Sabellianism.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm

    To get either you basically have to say there aren't any real distinctions between divine persons at all even of the Incomprehensible Mysterious kind.

    So in effect there is only one divine person with three names.

    In effect you have to hold dguller's novel definition of Divine Simplicity rather then the Catholic one.


    You get Tri-theism when you deny the metaphysical simplicity of God having only a notion distinction between His essence and existence and postulate three really distinct existences of "god" which share the common reality of being "divine".

    Like all of us share the essence of being human but we are each really distinct beings from one another.

    I still don't see why this is hard?

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  195. A Modalist sees the divine persons like the divine attributes as only logically distinct and not in any way really distinct even in the real Incomprehensive mysterious way taught by Trinitarian doctrine.

    The attributes are in no way really distinct from one another even in an incomprehensible mysterious fashion.

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  196. dguller,

    But that depends upon how you want to define “transcendental”. Do you define it as anything outside the categories? Or do you define it as that which applies to all the categories? Accident would fit the former, but not the latter.

    It actually doesn't matter how one defines transcendental here -- the discussion is fixed by the question of whether a use of number terms is in a catgory or not. However, it's pretty standard to use 'transcendental' for anything not falling under a category, although depending on the philosopher some things (like fundamental generic differences) may be put off under their own label); the ones that apply across all categories are usually called coextensive transcendentals, or transcendental universals, or communissima, or some such.

    But the question remains whether such a transcendental use has any sense at all. After all, you would have to purge all quantitative elements from transcendental numbers, and what would that leave you with? Can you count without including concepts of addition, units, and so on, which are paradigmatically quantitative? And if you cannot count, then how can you say that there are three divine persons? I suppose that for your argument to work, you would have to show what differentiates a quantitative number from a transcendental number. I’ve argued that the latter refers to either transcendental multiplicity (when taken literally) or the eminence of God over creation (when taken metaphorically). But that’s it.

    But there are lots of reasons why one would take them to have sense. For instance, we can easily recognize that there have to be transcendental or noncategorical relations. Take the relation between substance and accident. Obviously there is some sense in which a substance is related to its accidents. Is this relation a categorical relation? Then it would be an accident. But then the substance must be related to it by another relation. Is that a categorical relation? And so either every accident implies an infinite regress, which is impossible, or there are relations that are not in the category of relation. These are transcendental relations. But if there are transcendental relations, there are transcendental uses of number terms. For the transcendental relation of substance to accident clearly has (at least) two relata. This duality cannot itself be an accident, and therefore can't be in the category of quantity. Further we can use number terms to talk about transcendental relations: let's talk about three distinct transcendental relations, for instance -- substance to accident, subject to composite, esse to essentia. And of course there's no limit to this.

    You seem to be thinking of quantity as a non-generic term in itself -- as if counting automatically put one in the category of quantity. But the category of quantity only includes quantitative incidental properties of substances -- nothing is actually in the category of quantity unless it is in some way an accident of some substance. Anything else you might be calling quantity is not categorical at all. And when we are talking about God not being in a genus, or God not having accidents, we are only talking about categories: categories are maximal genera, and except for the category of substance, all the categories are categories of accidents and all actual accidents are in a category.

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  197. "Thomas concludes his exegesis of the Trinitarian baptismal formula by observing that it discloses the Trinity and excludes heresies, such as Sabellianism, which confates the persons, and Arianism, which separates them.48 The baptismal formula thus bears witness to the order of the persons, and to their consubstantiality. This is precisely what speculative theology will attempt to account for."


    "Sabellianism, which denies the real plurality of the persons."

    GILLES EMERY OP

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  198. @dguller:

    "Look at one divine person. That divine person is 'composed' of the divine essence E, and of the differentiating factor that distinguishes that divine person from the other divine persons, which we can call X."

    Well, I'm happy to see the scare quotes around "composed."

    However, I think we get off on the wrong foot if we say that each divine Person must contain or include some factor X that distinguishes it from the other two. This simply isn't the basis on which the actual doctrine of the Trinity distinguishes the divine Persons; according to Aquinas, distinction in God is by relation of origin, and relation in God is the divine essence itself. (For example, Aquinas goes so far as to say that the divine paternity is God the Father.) And distinction based on relation of origin does not involve or imply any composition in God.

    Again, if your objection is that the relations with which we're familiar don't work this way, the reply is the usual one: as Aquinas himself says in his reply to the fourth objection in the same question, the term "relation" applied to God is neither univocal nor equivocal, but analogical. Here, too, I'm sure you'd prefer to have a positive understanding of how such relations can obtain, but the doctrine itself pretty much says we're not going to get one in this life—and that doesn't entail a contradiction.

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  199. Scott:

    However, I think we get off on the wrong foot if we say that each divine Person must contain or include some factor X that distinguishes it from the other two. This simply isn't the basis on which the actual doctrine of the Trinity distinguishes the divine Persons; according to Aquinas, distinction in God is by relation of origin, and relation in God is the divine essence itself. (For example, Aquinas goes so far as to say that the divine paternity is God the Father.) And distinction based on relation of origin does not involve or imply any composition in God.

    I don’t think that this will work.

    First, let’s focus upon the Father and the Son.

    Aquinas writes that “the person Who proceeds in God, by way of emanation of the intellect, is called the Son” (ST 1.34.2). From this we can conclude that the Son proceeds from the Father.

    He then argues that “the divine Word is of necessity perfectly one with the source whence He proceeds, without any kind of diversity” (ST 1.27.1). From this we can conclude that the Son, being “the divine Word” is “one with the source whence He proceeds, without any kind of diversity”, which means that there is no diversity between the Father, as source, and the Son, as procession from the source.

    He then argues that “whenever we find terms of "diversity" or "difference" of Persons used in an authentic work, these terms of "diversity" or "difference" are taken to mean "distinction."” (ST 1.31.2). From this we can conclude that whenever “an authentic work” says that there is a diversity of persons, it necessarily means a distinction between persons.

    Therefore, if there is no diversity between the divine persons, then there is no distinction between the divine persons. Since Aquinas endorses the view that there is no diversity between the Father and the Son, then there is also no distinction between the Father and the Son.

    Second, you argue that the distinction between the persons is based upon the different relations of origin. You have to keep in mind that the divine persons are the subsistent relations themselves, i.e. they are one and the same thing. So, saying that the distinction between the divine persons is “based upon the different relations of origin” is a tautology that does not explain anything. It is like saying that the distinction between the divine persons is based upon the different divine persons.

    We agree that God can be considered in two ways: absolutely, as indicated by the divine essence, and relatively, as indicated by the divine relations. Aquinas states that the relationship between the divine essence and the divine relations is that “relation really existing in God is really the same as His essence and only differs in its mode of intelligibility” and that “in God relation and essence do not differ from each other, but are one and the same” (ST 1.28.2). What this means is that there is no difference between the divine essence and the divine relations in reality, and that any difference is only in their different modes of intelligibility. (Compare this to: “Goodness and being are really the same, and differ only in idea” (ST 1.5.1)).

    Since you never argued against the principle that if A differs from B, then A’s difference from B cannot be accounted for on the basis of what A and B have in common, I’ll take it that you accept it. That’s good, because to reject it is utterly absurd, because if A and B have everything in common, then A is identical to B, and thus cannot possibly be different from B at all. Any distinction between them can only be accounted for on the basis of what is not in common, i.e. what is different between them.

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