Wednesday, July 17, 2013

Hart stopping


In the August/September issue of First Things, David Bentley Hart gives us what he promises is his last word on the controversy generated by his article on natural law in the March issue.  I responded to Hart’s original piece in “A Christian Hart, a Humean Head,” posted at the First Things website (and cross-posted here).  Hart replied to my criticisms in a follow-up article in the May issue of First Things.  I responded to that in “Sheer Hart Attack,” posted at Public Discourse.  Hart also replied to several other critics in the Letters section of the May First Things, and I commented on his remarks in a further post entitled “Discerning the thoughts and intents of Hart.”  What follows is a reply to his latest piece.
 
Hart does not refer to me by name this time, but he does quote a remark I made in my Public Discourse article to the effect that according to natural law theory, “there is common ground among all human beings, and particularly between religious believers and non-believers, on which moral disagreements can be rationally adjudicated.”  Hart comments:

I am not sure I could sneak so minimalist a definition of natural law theory past, say, the piercing eyes of Russell Hittinger; but, by all means, if we are talking only about principles upon which we all agree in advance, then only details remain.

I, however, do not believe everyone agrees on those principles anymore, even when it seems they might.

End quote.  The first thing to say about this is that I was not trying to give a formal definition of natural law theory in the first place, but merely putting emphasis on one of its key features.  I was also keeping my characterization general enough to cover both of the main theories that go under the “natural law” label these days (i.e. the traditional or “old” natural law theory defended by the likes of Hittinger, Ralph McInerny, and myself, and the “new” natural law theory of Germain Grisez, John Finnis, and Robert P. George).  Had I intended my remark as a definition it would have been what Scholastics call a “nominal definition” (one which tries merely to capture a term’s usage) rather than a “real definition” (one which tries to capture the real essence of the thing named by a term).  And had I given a real definition it would have been no more minimalist than the sort Hittinger would give.

Anyway, while on the substantive issues Hart concedes little if anything to his critics, he does allow that in some places in his earlier articles he perhaps could have been clearer, writing that “given the necessarily condensed nature of columns with word limits, I may have been guilty of a few cryptic formulations.”  But though he tries to clarify things in this latest piece, I’m afraid it just doesn’t seem to me that he has succeeded in doing so.

One of the complaints Hart’s critics have raised repeatedly is that he appears to be attacking a phantom, refusing to name the specific natural law theorists whose work he has in mind, blurring the crucial differences between the “old” and “new” approaches, and as a consequence raising objections that apply to neither one.  Amazingly, in this fourth time at bat he still does not resolve this ambiguity, or so it seems to me.  On the one hand, he tells us that “while classical forms of the tradition are cogent given the religious and metaphysical assumptions with which they work,” he has been “dismissive” of “attempts to forge an effective natural law theory without the support of those assumptions, agreeable to the temper of modernity.”  That makes it sound as if what he has had in his sights is the “new natural law theory,” which attempts to reformulate the natural law position without reference to the classical metaphysical foundation traditional or “old” natural law theorists would insist on. 

On the other hand, Hart is critical of attempts to argue for moral conclusions via what he calls “philosophical arguments simply from the evident natures of things” and spends most of the piece emphasizing how, given their “mechanical” conception of nature, modern people do not see “inherent purposes” in nature and fail to “find a moral meaning in nature’s forms.”  That makes it sound as if Hart is criticizing the “old” or traditional natural law theory, which (unlike the “new”) appeals to formal and final causes in nature.  (Or at least it sounds as if he is criticizing a caricature of the “old” theory -- I know of no natural law theorist who thinks he can appeal “simply” to “the evident natures of things,” as if the existence of such natures were uncontroversial.)

I do not have any satisfying explanation for Hart’s persistent ambiguity.  He has read his critics and knows that this is one of their complaints (indeed, perhaps their chief complaint).  It would be very easy for him to say something like “Let me make it clear that I am only criticizing the ‘new natural law’ of Grisez, Finnis, George, et al.” (if that is indeed the case) or “I am criticizing both approaches, but I realize that the same criticisms don’t apply to both, so let me first raise some criticisms of the ‘new’ approach and then some separate criticisms of the ‘old.’”  As it is, he does not even acknowledge his critics’ repeated complaint about his failure clearly to distinguish the “old” and “new” approaches to natural law, much less respond to it.

Could it be that Hart does not understand the differences between the two approaches?  That is hard to believe, given not only how well-read he evidently is, but also how clearly and frequently the differences have been harped on by his critics.  One thing is plain, and that is that if Hart were to disambiguate his position, his main objection to natural law theories would entirely collapse.  For that objection -- which the new article essentially restates -- has consistently been that modernity’s conception of nature is too metaphysically desiccated for natural law theorists to be able glibly to appeal to nature’s purposes in arguing about morality with secularists.  And the problem with this -- to repeat a point I’ve now made many times, in several articles, but which Hart has never answered -- is that it is directed at a straw man. 

For “new” natural law theorists do not appeal to nature’s purposes in the first place.  In response to Hart’s eloquent description of the moderns’ conception of nature as denuded from top to bottom of inherent purpose, they might say “Fine, but how is all of that relevant to us?  The whole point of our approach is to sidestep that problem by grounding natural law, not in a classical philosophy of nature of the sort the moderns reject, but in a theory of practical reason sensitive to their post-Humean metaphysical scruples!”  This may be a hopeless task -- I certainly think it is -- but Hart offers no arguments whatsoever against it.  His repeated emphasis on the differences between classical and modern conceptions of nature, while correct, simply misses the whole point of the “new natural lawyers’” project.

We “old” natural law theorists, meanwhile, do appeal to “inherent purposes” and “nature’s forms.”  We agree with Hart that natural law theory requires such a classical metaphysical foundation.  But precisely for that reason, we are also well aware that that entails that we are committed to a radically different conception of nature from that of modern secularists, and that “any ‘natural’ terms [we] employ have very different meanings for [those] interlocutors” (as Hart tells us -- as if it were news).  We realize that we cannot take for granted a common metaphysical understanding of the natural world and proceed directly to moral arguments, but have first to challenge the moderns’ understanding of nature itself, and that this is a Herculean project.  In response to Hart’s eloquent description of the moderns’ conception of nature as denuded from top to bottom of inherent purpose, we would say “Fine, but how is all of that relevant to us?  You’re not telling us anything we don’t already know -- indeed, you’re not telling us anything we haven’t said ourselves!”

In short, Hart’s targets are natural law theorists who both (a) appeal to formal and final causes inherent in nature but also (b) are blithely unaware of the fact that (or at least downplay the fact that) most modern readers firmly reject the very idea of formal and final causes.  And the trouble is that there are no such natural law theorists.  For (a) is not true of “new” natural law theorists, and (b) is not true of “old” natural law theorists.  Certainly Hart has, in four different pieces now, failed to offer a single specific example of a theorist to whom his criticisms would apply.

Since Hart has now responded twice to me personally, it is especially odd that he should say some of the things he does in his latest piece, presumably as if they were criticisms of anything I’ve written.  He emphasizes that the “rise of the mechanical philosophy” has made it possible for modern people to deny that there are purposes in nature; that “even those who believed that the exquisite clockwork of the universe had been assembled by an intelligent designer still regarded physical nature as an amalgam of intrinsically aimless energies upon which order had been extrinsically imposed”; that even in the biological realm moderns tend to reject “intrinsic natures” in favor of “local coalescences of diverse and meaningless material forces” so that there can be “no proper purpose inherent in any aspect of an organism” on such a view and thus no morally relevant criterion of what counts as “flourishing”; and that this overall picture amounts to a “nihilism” that when pushed through consistently enables those who embrace it to “dismiss logic” and tends toward a “limitless voluntarism” in ethics.

I hardly need tell my longtime readers that these are themes I have repeatedly emphasized and developed at length myself, e.g. in The Last Superstition and in countless blog posts (such as my series of posts on Alex Rosenberg).  Indeed, I have, I think it can fairly be said, relentlessly hammered (some might say ad nauseam) on the theme that defending natural law and natural theology requires revitalizing the entire classical metaphysical tradition and attacking the metaphysical assumptions of modern philosophy at their core.  Hearing Hart complain that natural law theorists are insufficiently mindful of how deeply at odds their basic metaphysical assumptions are with those of modern thinkers, I feel a bit like Richard Dawkins might if he were told that he really should consider writing something about evolution someday.

Agree though we implicitly do about the condition of modern metaphysics, Hart and I certainly do not see eye to eye on the remedy.  While I acknowledge in The Last Superstition that there are “non-intellectual factors” behind the crisis of modern Western civilization and that “some are more important” than the intellectual ones (p. 51), I have also long insisted that a major part of the problem is intellectual and philosophical, and can only be dealt with via sustained, vigorous, and painstaking philosophical argument. 

And here is where a kind of “common ground” between the classical natural law theorist and the contemporary secular philosopher can still be found.  For though the latter typically rejects classical metaphysics of the Platonic, Aristotelian, or Scholastic sort, he can still understand arguments for those views if they are set out carefully.  He is perfectly capable of engaging in debate with the classical metaphysician about such matters as whether a nominalist account of universals is ultimately defensible, whether Humean arguments about efficient causality are ultimately cogent, whether efficient causation is ultimately intelligible without affirming an end toward which a cause points as to a final cause, whether the existence of change can coherently be denied and if not whether it can be made sense of without the act/potency distinction, whether modern science can ultimately be made sense of without affirming that things have immanent natures, whether reductionist interpretations of what we know from modern chemistry and biology are correct -- and all the other philosophical issues I address in The Last Superstition and elsewhere (and which other traditional natural law theorists address too).  That such debate can be fruitful is obvious to anyone familiar with the resurgence of Aristotelian ideas even outside the ranks of Thomists -- as several recent anthologies (see this one, this one, and this one), not to mention the well-known recent example of Thomas Nagel, make evident.  Of course, this by itself does not entail the moral conclusions associated with natural law, but it does show that the metaphysical presuppositions of classical natural law theory can be recovered via philosophical argument.

Hart evidently disagrees.  While he says on the one hand that his skepticism about natural law “arises not from doubts regarding the powers of natural reason,” he immediately goes on to say that they arise “rather from doubts regarding the powers of philosophical dialectic when it artificially confines itself to ‘purely natural’ principles.”  I’m not sure I see the distinction here, much less a difference, but in any event Hart seems, as he did in his earlier articles, to be saying that the dispute between “these two views of reality” -- classical versus modern metaphysics -- is only ever going to be “mediated” by grace rather than nature, revelation rather than reason, and what he calls “the rhetoric of conversion” rather than philosophical argument.  (How this squares with the existence of the many contemporary non-religious philosophers who have been brought over to various Aristotelian and other classical metaphysical views via purely philosophical arguments, he does not tell us.) 

The problem with this alternative approach seems to me more obvious than any Hart purports to find in natural law.  Whose rhetoric?  Which conversion?  Why should it be Christ’s call to leave our nets and follow Him, rather than (say) the call from the minaret, that stirs our hearts?  Or why Christian renunciation rather than Buddhist non-attachment?  And how can any answer that simply appeals to further conversion rhetoric be anything more than a riff on the sort of subjectivism and voluntarism Hart rightly denounces when it appears in its modernist guises?

It is no good merely to insinuate, as Hart does, that reason is at least a part of the story, as if this sufficed to keep the subjectivist and voluntarist genies in the bottle.  For he also appears to insist that “the rhetoric of conversion” must always ultimately wear the trousers, and the problem is that there are competing rhetorical influences on us.  Either further rhetoric is what ultimately decides between them -- in which case we’ve fallen into subjectivism and voluntarism -- or it is not, in which case it is not Hart’s “rhetoric of conversion” that wears the trousers after all.

So, Hart has not only failed to lay a hand on the natural law approach, but has also failed to make clear exactly what his alternative is supposed to be.  Or so it appears to me.  But as an admirer of Atheist Delusions, I am (as Hart says of himself in his closing line) more than willing to be proved wrong. 

217 comments:

  1. What is more, #4 asserts that this greater personal condition is an eternal union with God so complete that one is only filled with God (and has lost all awareness but that which is God).

    One thing that is significant is that, as long as the saint in the union remains a distinct person and does not become one in being with God, then logically, his "being completely filled with God (and has lost all awareness but that which is God)" does NOT IMPLY that he comprehends God. That is, even though all of the saint's thought is wholly taken up in God, there can be more to God than he thinks.

    This is important in distinguishing some eastern thinking, which because they equate the perfected person with God simply, there is no distinction at all between what the saint thinks and what God thinks. This leads to all sorts of error, such as: since God's thought is creative, so also the creature's thought is creative in exactly the same way.

    once again becomes clear when reading it is that religion is not so much a belief system but a way. Beliefs are just what illuminates or circumscribes the way, but the real thing is the way. Which comports well with Christ’s “I am the way and the truth and the life”. We see here that “truth” does not ultimately refer to propositions or to beliefs or to ideas, but to the personal condition – indeed the personal condition of whom follows Christ’s way and thus becomes more similar to Him. Which understanding of truth in turn comports with the theistic metaphysics according to which all, including all truths, are grounded in God.

    Which religion matters if Christ is "the way" in a sense that Buddha is not. If my union with God is mediated specifically by the second Person of the Trinity becoming specifically the God-man Jesus, then Buddha is not "the way". And the Buddhism is not belief in the one name by which all are saved.

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  2. Glenn,

    You are not saying whether you agree with #2. This is crucial for the following reason: If you do agree then our discussion is about what you and I conceive as the greatest possible eternal condition of the saved. If you do not agree then it makes no sense for me to discuss what it is I conceive as the greatest possible eternal condition, nor to ask you what it is you conceive. I continue assuming that you do agree with #2. If you don’t though, I’d be interested to know why not.

    And if there isn't a something for God to fill, #4 can't be true.

    I think I understand what you mean, but I also think it is ultimately a matter of convention about how to use words. Let us reconsider the analogy of a problem and its solution. So, given the solution, does the problem still exist? In a sense it does, for the solution is a solution to *that* problem. But in another sense it doesn’t, for given that the problem is solved it is not anymore a problem. I could use many other analogies, even the very simple one about the empty glass: Does the empty glass once filled with water exist or not? In a sense it does since the empty glass is what the water fills. But in another sense it doesn’t for there isn’t anymore an empty glass.

    When I speak of #4 I am using conventions of the latter type. Since the end of the creature is personal perfection and complete union with God, once that union is realized the creature as such perhaps is not there anymore. In the same way that the problem to be solved, once solved, does not anymore exist as such. In the same way that the empty glass to be filled with water, once filled, does not anymore exist as such. Such analogies I think show that #4 *can* be true.

    Additionally, that which is lost is awareness of anything which isn't God--i.e., what is lost is an awareness, e.g., that one's being is separate and distinct from God's being, and not the actual separateness and distinctiveness of one's being from God's being.

    Right, that’s exactly how I mean #4: One loses the awareness that one’s being is separate and distinct from God’s being. As I said I am concerned with the actual experience, and not with the metaphysical status of the respective state of affairs. If you hold that the human subject is still there even though *eternally* she is not aware of herself being there – I have at first glance no problem with that. Why not? Because it makes no experiential difference whatsoever, thus expresses no meaningful difference I care to ponder. I general I hold that to imagine how reality is in a way which is fundamentally beyond relevance to experience, makes by definition no difference and is therefore not worth thinking about.

    You can try to wriggle out of it by claiming that #4 refers only to actual experience. But such an attempt is disingenuous at best; for that which is experiencing is not God, but a something which itself is not God (however much it may seem to that something that it is other than itself).

    No “wriggling out” whatsoever. I stated #4 and it’s only up to me to describe what it refers to. And (as I said from the start) it only refers to actual experience. What interests me is the eternal personal condition of the saved.

    [continues]

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  3. Nevertheless now you have moved me to reconsider. You suggest that, on #4, that which is experiencing (all that God has) is not God but a something which itself is not God. But if what you suggest were the metaphysical state of affairs wouldn’t it mean that God is eternally deceiving the saved?

    And here’s a further argument: Suppose #4 comes to pass. It would then be a contradiction if while having all that God has we are not aware of us being there experiencing, but also (having God’s omniscience) knowing that it is us being there experiencing. I find this argument is pretty conclusive: If #4 as an experiential condition obtains then there is no creaturely subject experiencing but only God, with whom the creature’s being was fused.

    Two quick reasons: 1) Challenging as it is in and of itself, having a right conception of God becomes even more of a challenge when one thinks that that is God which is not God;

    What does it *mean* to say that a conception of God is right or is wrong if either way it cannot possibly make any difference to our experience of life – not now, not ever?

    Actually there is good answer to that question: A wrong conception of God is that which keeps us from following Christ, and a right conception of God is that which moves us to follow Christ. Now, speaking for myself only, #4 moves me to follow Christ more than any other view of the eschaton. Further, at first glance I find the issue of the metaphysical status of #4 to be irrelevant. For given the best possible eternal condition of the saved I couldn’t care less about its metaphysical status. But on further thought (as I described immediately above) I do find the view that the creaturely subject will eternally remain there to be deeply problematic, indeed incoherent. And what’s perhaps worse, it keeps me from following Christ for it entails the idea of being eternally deceived by God. (Incidentally this is not the first time that an idea about the eschaton entails eternal deception. In the context of #1 I once heard the idea that in order not to mar the bliss of the saved God will make them forget the existence of the damned ones.) In conclusion I am now moved to affirm that the concept of God which entails there being any subject but God at the eschaton of the saved is wrong. I now tentatively hold that the right concept is that for love the saved will desire to be eternally fused with God in eternal life, and for love God will grant them their desire.

    2) he who claims that that is God which is not God loses standing and credibility with those who can see that that which is not God indeed is not God.

    I am sure we agree that the only thing we should care about is the truth, the nature of which is such that it necessarily moves us to follow Christ – and not our standing and credibility with others.

    it helps to have some familiarity with the difference between appearance and reality.

    I only wish to remark that in the #4 condition there are no appearances and thus there is no such difference. But in the context of Ware’s third kind of union there may be.

    And, I suppose, one simple way to put it might be to say that we are recipients of life from God, and are neither that life itself nor God Himself. But to the extent that we are 'clean' recipients, or to the extent that less and less of what is our own adulterates the life we receive from God, to that extent are we said to be one with God (i.e., experiencing a union with God).

    Right, that’s basically #3, or leads eternally to #3. This is I think the usual understanding of theosis by the Orthodox church and perhaps quite near to the understanding of the eschaton by the other great churches, describes what’s clearly an awesome blessing, solves what I have called “the problem of boredom”, and may well be true. I may well be wrong to judge #4 to be greater.

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  4. Tony,

    That is, even though all of the saint's thought is wholly taken up in God, there can be more to God than he thinks.

    If I understand you correctly you are saying that perhaps the human soul is like an empty glass and God is like the sea. When perfected the empty glass will be filled up to rim with the sea’s water, but it’s not like the whole sea fit in the glass. In such a state the creature will have only God’s thoughts and may even stop being aware of its own identity.

    Perhaps that’s how it will be at the eschaton, and the humility of the idea is attractive. On the other hand it does not comport with St John of the Cross’s claim that in union with God one has all that God has. And one wonders if having experienced such a state would give St. Catherine the authority to speak from God’s point of view. On the other hand, since even saints are imperfect creatures, perhaps their understanding was mistaken, or else they didn’t express it well enough, or else we are misunderstanding them.

    What I think becomes clearer is this: Since, fundamentally, creatures are finite beings it is difficult to conceive of a proper union with the infinite being of God – unless the creature willingly loses all of its finite nature in complete “kenosis” (the emptying of oneself). To use the imagery from above: Since the sea does not fit into a glass of water, the only way for the glass of water to be filled with the sea is for it to melt into the sea. Or to use another imagery: The only way for a drop of water to become a river and to fall and disappear in it.

    This leads to all sorts of error, such as: since God's thought is creative, so also the creature's thought is creative in exactly the same way.

    Well, on #4, there isn’t a “creature’s thought” anymore. There is only God there having absorbed without any interruption the creature’s life. From the creature’s point of view this is experienced as having all that was its own (including its identity) become what God is.

    *Which* religion matters if Christ is "the way" in a sense that Buddha is not.

    But Buddha did not claim to be the way; he only claimed to teach the way.

    And as far as I know the way that Buddha taught is Christ’s, in the sense that whoever walks on the way that Buddha taught is walking on the way that is Christ’s. I can’t find any significant differences. If told about the life of a Christian saint, or of a Buddhist, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Jewish saint – without attributions, do you think you would be able to distinguish which one is the Christian saint?

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  5. Dianelos,

    Tony: That is, even though all of the saint's thought is wholly taken up in God, there can be more to God than he thinks.

    You: If I understand you correctly you are saying that perhaps the human soul is like an empty glass and God is like the sea. When perfected the empty glass will be filled up to rim with the sea’s water, but it’s not like the whole sea fit in the glass. In such a state the creature will have only God’s thoughts and may even stop being aware of its own identity. Perhaps that’s how it will be at the eschaton, and the humility of the idea is attractive. On the other hand it does not comport with St John of the Cross’s claim that in union with God one has all that God has.

    St John (with emphases from me): "In thus allowing God to work in it, the soul...is at once illumined and transformed in God, and God communicates to it His supernatural Being, in such wise that it appears to be God Himself, and has all that God Himself has. And this union comes to pass when God grants the soul this supernatural favour, that all the things of God and the soul are one in participant transformation; and the soul seems to be God rather than a soul, and is indeed God by participation; although it is true that its natural being, though thus transformed, is as distinct from the Being of God as it was before, even as the window has likewise a nature distinct from that of the ray, though the ray gives it brightness."

    Now, go ahead--blow some more amphibolous smoke.

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  6. D: On the other hand it does not comport with St John of the Cross’s claim that in union with God one has all that God has.

    One has all that God has, indeed, (for by grace we have God Himself) but not in the mode in which God has it.

    ST Prima Pars Q 12 A 6

    In the words,"We shall see Him as He is," the conjunction "as" determines the mode of vision on the part of the object seen, so that the meaning is, we shall see Him to be as He is, because we shall see His existence, which is His essence. But it does not determine the mode of vision on the part of the one seeing; as if the meaning was that the mode of seeing God will be as perfect as is the perfect mode of God's existence.

    D: This is crucial for the following reason: If you do agree then our discussion is about what you and I conceive as the greatest possible eternal condition of the saved. If you do not agree then it makes no sense for me to discuss what it is I conceive as the greatest possible eternal condition, nor to ask you what it is you conceive.

    There is no such thing as "the greatest possible eternal condition of the saved."

    Again article 6

    I answer that, Of those who see the essence of God, one sees Him more perfectly than another. This, indeed, does not take place as if one had a more perfect similitude of God than another, since that vision will not spring from any similitude; but it will take place because one intellect will have a greater power or faculty to see God than another. The faculty of seeing God, however, does not belong to the created intellect naturally, but is given to it by the light of glory, which establishes the intellect in a kind of "deiformity," as appears from what is said above, in the preceding article.

    The light of glory in man is an effect made by God, and there is has no limit to its possible extent for "greater than" so there is no such thing as "the greatest possible." It's like "take the greatest possible counting number..."

    Article 7:

    On the contrary, It is written: "O most mighty, great, and powerful, the Lord of hosts is Thy Name. Great in counsel, and incomprehensible in thought" (Jeremiah 32:18-19). Therefore He cannot be comprehended.

    I answer that, It is impossible for any created intellect to comprehend God; yet "for the mind to attain to God in some degree is great beatitude," as Augustine says (De Verb. Dim., Serm. xxxvii)...[snip]

    Now no created intellect can know God infinitely. For the created intellect knows the Divine essence more or less perfectly in proportion as it receives a greater or lesser light of glory. Since therefore the created light of glory received into any created intellect cannot be infinite, it is clearly impossible for any created intellect to know God in an infinite degree. Hence it is impossible that it should comprehend God.


    Article 8

    The angels see the essence of God; and yet do not know all things. For as Dionysius says (Coel. Hier. vii), "the inferior angels are cleansed from ignorance by the superior angels." Also they are ignorant of future contingent things, and of secret thoughts; for this knowledge belongs to God alone. Therefore whosoever sees the essence of God, does not know all things.

    Now, maybe you want to take issue with St. Thomas, but I can guarantee you St. John of the Cross was not trying to say anything that would do so.

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  7. D: On the other hand it does not comport with St John of the Cross’s claim that in union with God one has all that God has.

    One has all that God has, indeed, (for by grace we have God Himself) but not in the mode in which God has it.

    ST Prima Pars Q 12 A 6

    In the words,"We shall see Him as He is," the conjunction "as" determines the mode of vision on the part of the object seen, so that the meaning is, we shall see Him to be as He is, because we shall see His existence, which is His essence. But it does not determine the mode of vision on the part of the one seeing; as if the meaning was that the mode of seeing God will be as perfect as is the perfect mode of God's existence.

    D: This is crucial for the following reason: If you do agree then our discussion is about what you and I conceive as the greatest possible eternal condition of the saved. If you do not agree then it makes no sense for me to discuss what it is I conceive as the greatest possible eternal condition, nor to ask you what it is you conceive.

    There is no such thing as "the greatest possible eternal condition of the saved."

    Again article 6

    I answer that, Of those who see the essence of God, one sees Him more perfectly than another. This, indeed, does not take place as if one had a more perfect similitude of God than another, since that vision will not spring from any similitude; but it will take place because one intellect will have a greater power or faculty to see God than another. The faculty of seeing God, however, does not belong to the created intellect naturally, but is given to it by the light of glory, which establishes the intellect in a kind of "deiformity," as appears from what is said above, in the preceding article.

    The light of glory in man is an effect made by God, and there is has no limit to its possible extent for "greater than" so there is no such thing as "the greatest possible." It's like "take the greatest possible counting number..."

    Article 7:

    On the contrary, It is written: "O most mighty, great, and powerful, the Lord of hosts is Thy Name. Great in counsel, and incomprehensible in thought" (Jeremiah 32:18-19). Therefore He cannot be comprehended.

    I answer that, It is impossible for any created intellect to comprehend God; yet "for the mind to attain to God in some degree is great beatitude," as Augustine says (De Verb. Dim., Serm. xxxvii)...[snip]

    Now no created intellect can know God infinitely. For the created intellect knows the Divine essence more or less perfectly in proportion as it receives a greater or lesser light of glory. Since therefore the created light of glory received into any created intellect cannot be infinite, it is clearly impossible for any created intellect to know God in an infinite degree. Hence it is impossible that it should comprehend God.


    Article 8

    The angels see the essence of God; and yet do not know all things. For as Dionysius says (Coel. Hier. vii), "the inferior angels are cleansed from ignorance by the superior angels." Also they are ignorant of future contingent things, and of secret thoughts; for this knowledge belongs to God alone. Therefore whosoever sees the essence of God, does not know all things.

    Now, maybe you want to take issue with St. Thomas, but I can guarantee you St. John of the Cross was not trying to say anything that would do so.

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  8. Glenn,

    I am not sure what your point is. You quote St John putting emphasis on the word “appears”:

    is at once illumined and transformed in God, and God communicates to it His supernatural Being, in such wise that it *appears* to be God Himself, and has all that God Himself has.

    As already noted St John quite explicitly rejects the idea that the creature’s individual existence is lost. As he writes “though thus transformed, [the creature] is as distinct from the Being of God as it was before”. So that’s probably not your point.

    Perhaps your point is that the creature thus transformed does not really have all that God has, but it only *appears* to him as if he had all that God has. If that’s your point then I have a problem with it. For I don’t know what it means to say that St John, when united with God, does not really have omniscience but it only appears to him to have omniscience. Surely it’s not like God is fooling him to experience having something he doesn’t really have.

    The best I can do with St John’s text is that he means to say that he was really united to God and really had all that God had, by fully participating in God’s condition, while also remaining a distinct subject, and being aware of that fact. That’s compatible with my #3.

    But suppose I am wrong, and that when St John speaks of “union” and of “having all that God has” he is using symbolic language perhaps trying to express how overwhelmingly intimate, otherworldly, and numinous his mystical experience of God was. Then I will have lost one testimony about the actual experience of real union with God, but it’s not like it follows that such a condition is impossible, or that it is not a greater condition than the more traditional understanding of eternal communion with God, or that it is not the eternal condition that God will bless the saved with.

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  9. Tony,

    Thanks for the quotes. Very interesting. It is evident that the issues we have been discussing are not at all new but have occupied the minds of some of the greatest theologians. It seems St Thomas Aquinas understands theosis not so much as a eternal union, but as a “deiformity” of the human intellect, which give to it in various degrees the capacity to directly perceive God. This dynamic view might also solve what I’ve called “the problem of boredom” since the saved would be blessed with an ever clearer view of God for all eternity.

    Now, maybe you want to take issue with St. Thomas

    Well, nobody is inerrant but God. Since St Thomas is widely recognized as one of the greatest Christian minds ever, and also practically as *the* doctor of the Catholic church, he deserves a lot of trust. But no matter whom one chooses to trust, one retains full responsibility for one’s choices.

    In the particular issue at hand the condition of complete union I describe in #4 seems to me to be greater then the condition of seeing God’s existence with ever greater clarity St Thomas describes. The problem St Thomas mentions to the effect that “it is impossible for any created intellect to comprehend God” does not seem to be an insuperable one, for God if God so wishes can surely transform the created intellect into God’s uncreated own – perhaps only temporarily in the case of some great mystics. If that was the condition temporarily granted to St John then when he returned to his normal limited human condition he would also lose comprehension of God, but not lose the memory of having been completely united with God and thus in full knowledge of God.

    One way or the other I suppose we may relax and trust in the excellence of whatever the eternal condition of the saved will be. Our urgent current task is salvation itself.

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  10. does not seem to be an insuperable one, for God if God so wishes can surely transform the created intellect into God’s uncreated own

    Right, just like God if He wishes can transform goodness into evil, or change the Trinity into a Duality, change the number 5 into the number 1, or anything else that can be said in words, for omnipotence is really OMNIpotence.

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  11. Tony,

    Right, just like God if He wishes can transform goodness into evil, or change the Trinity into a Duality, change the number 5 into the number 1, or anything else that can be said in words, for omnipotence is really OMNIpotence.

    I think omnipotence should be understood as “God does what God wills” (as is explicitly stated in St Augustine’s “City of God”, and I quote “God is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills”). This definition describes well the power of the greatest conceivable being.[1]

    Now it is obvious that God, being perfectly rational, does not want to create a stone so heavy that God cannot lift, does not want to do evil, does not want to change the Trinity into a Duality or perhaps remove Himself out of existence, does not want to create a square circle, does not want to fail, etc. So to speak of whether God “can” do something we can suggest is misleading. For God, being the greatest conceivable being, is perfectly rational and would not *want* to do some crazy stuff we may suggest. In short, one should not separate omnipotence from the other attributes of God.

    Now *if* the condition of complete union I describe in #4 is in fact the most valuable end of a creature, then it is at least reasonable to think that this will be the eternal condition that God will want to bless the saved with, and therefore will bless the saved with.

    [1] I think I can give an argument for this: Omnipotence at a minimum entails that God can and does what God wants. For a being which cannot do what it wants is less than the greatest conceivable being. Moreover, rationality entails that God does not want to have the power to do things He does not want to do. For to desire to be able to do even what one doesn’t want to do is irrational. Thus the conjunction of God’s rationality and the minimum understanding of omnipotence implies that the minimum understanding of omnipotence is the right one. (In other words, if God had the power to do even what God doesn’t want to do, this would violate the God’s rational will.)

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  12. Now *if* the condition of complete union I describe in #4 is in fact the most valuable end of a creature, then it is at least reasonable to think that this will be the eternal condition that God will want to bless the saved with, and therefore will bless the saved with.

    I reject the "if" on 2 grounds. First, because you seem to equate it with this:

    for God if God so wishes can surely transform the created intellect into God’s uncreated own

    which is pretty much just exactly like creating a square circle or making a rock so big He can't lift it - it's oxymoronic for a created being to be transformed into the Uncreated being, simply.

    Secondly, there simply IS NO SUCH THING as God giving man "the most valuable end of a creature" in absolute terms. God is neither required nor expected to confer on ANY creature, much less all of the saved, that "condition" which is "most valuable" because (a) there isn't such a condition, and also (b) a good God is not obliged to achieve such a thing, only a "good" end. As to (a), the gulf between creature and Creator is infinite, and no creature can receive as belonging to its own nature infinite good or it would not be creature at all, but creator, simply. For a creature to be transformed into God simply is for the creature to cease to exist absolutely, which is where you tried to start out back about 50 comments ago but #4 was supposed to avoid.

    Finally, the Fathers and Doctors agree that different saints are united to God in different degrees, according as their merit and charity, so for each one of them there is some higher degree than the degree of union and perfection that they hold. So there is no simple "best" at all, only a relative "best" under the condition of the soul given its merit and charity. And that condition doesn't lead to a "best" in which it is annihilated in absolute cessation, but is united in total intellectual and willed union. The Beatific Vision is something that a creature enjoys because it persists.

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  13. Tony,

    I agree with the view of the Fathers that the saints are united to God in different degrees, I just don’t think that this is their *eternal* condition. And one reason (not the only one) I don’t think this is precisely because I find it oxymoronic that a finite being would receive an infinite property, namely receive infinite duration of creaturely condition.

    In comparison, having one’s intellect be absorbed into God, an event which I don’t mind calling the transformation of the created into the uncreated, does not violate my intuitions. Here I find no oxymoron since the infinite is not mixed with the finite, given that after that union the creature is no more. Finally I wish to state that I find the idea of such complete union very easy to conceive, and that even now in my fallen condition I find it highly desirable. Of course I don’t dispute the absolutely miraculous nature of such an event, but would like to point out that the incarnation of our Lord is not less miraculous. Indeed it’s a mirror image, as described in the ancient aphorism that “God became human so that we might become God”.

    A few final remarks. As for (a), whether the condition of such complete union actually exists is what we discuss. Surely we agree that if that’s God’s and the creature’s will then it does exist. As for (b) I am not of course speaking of what God is “obliged” to do, since God is not obliged to do anything but simply realizes God’s will, on which all truth and goodness are grounded.

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  14. Dianelos,

    I am not sure what your point is... So that’s probably not your point. Perhaps your point is...

    Rather than spell out the point I was making, I juxtaposed Tony's statement, your response, and St John's claim with surrounding text (portions of which were emphasized) that the point might be seen. **

    If that doesn't make sense, then think of it this way: I was testing your "cognitive capacity to recognize" the truth of something "without the requirement of reason or demonstration".

    - - - - -

    ** The point to be seen was that either or both your understanding of the claim made by St John is less than accurate or your understanding of the statement made by Tony is less than accurate.

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  15. I find it oxymoronic that a finite being would receive an infinite property, namely receive infinite duration of creaturely condition.

    In comparison, having one’s intellect be absorbed into God, an event which I don’t mind calling the transformation of the created into the uncreated, does not violate my intuitions.


    Yeah, that's just about the absolute best evidence I have ever seen for not relying simply on one's intuition about things eternal. Thanks for being the witness for the prosecution, the absurdum in the reduction ad absurdum, and the suffix in the oxymoron. If you won't be swayed by the Fathers, nor by reason and St. Thomas, I don't imagine I will sway you by any further argument. There is no point to continuing this discussion.

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  16. Tony,

    I think the Fathers should be read with much respect and attention, but not in a dogmatic state of mind. It’s not like all truth is known, and it’s not like there is inerrancy either in what people write or in how we understand it.

    One of the glories of theism, and especially of Christianity, is that it entails that God, the ground of all truth, is present and wants to be found. As Christians I think we have the duty to search for the truth, for by searching for the truth we are searching for the living Christ, literally. Given theism one should never be afraid to look for Christ and to follow one’s reason – for both are divine gifts. Thus, clearly, ongoing theological speculation and especially natural theology as a branch of philosophy, are good.

    Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find. In the NT we are explicitly called not be dogmatic but to seek. Still I find there is an undercurrent of dogmatism in the traditional interpretation of texts, when their original intent appears to say exactly the opposite. I am thinking of the famous passage in Hebrews 11:1 usually translated as “Faith is [...] a conviction of things not seen” (English Standard) and “Faith is […] the evidence of things not seen” (King James). One should already feel perplexed since “a conviction” and “the evidence” are quite different concepts. I have found many other translations still (“proof”, “what gives us proof”, “knowing that something is real”, “convinces us of the existence”, “to be certain”, “assurance about”, “an argument of”).

    The impression one gets from these translations is that faith constitutes by itself or produces by itself the conviction/evidence/proof of truths about things not seen. Which meaning is, first, distasteful to reason, and, second, is a highly idiosyncratic and rather forced interpretation of the original Greek. The key original Greek word is “elegxos” from the verb “elegxo” which expresses an active, even aggressive attitude of testing, checking, trying to confirm – as one finds out by reading the relevant dictionary entries [1]. So the clearly more faithful translation would be the anti-dogmatic “Faith is the grounding of hope, and the test of things not seen”. By searching for what grounds one’s hope that the world is good, and by testing the truths about what is not evident, is one filled with faith.

    Thanks for the interesting discussion – I think I learned from it.

    [1] Bellow some dictionary entries:
    http://bibleapps.com/greek/1650.htm
    http://bibleapps.com/greek/1651.htm
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&lookup=elegxos&lang=greek
    http://lsj.translatum.gr/wiki/%E1%BC%94%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B3%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%82

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  17. Professor Feser, I have one question. You said, "What follows is a reply to his latest piece." Where can Hart's latest piece be found?

    Thank you for your exchange with Hart. It was very interesting to me to read the dialogue between two men I highly respect. I think you did an excellent job, and was slightly underwhelmed with Hart's pieces. Clearly he is not an analytic philosopher, but even so...

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