Wednesday, April 3, 2013

Reply to Kozinski


I’ve been meaning to write up a response to Thaddeus Kozinski’s post at Ethika Politika criticizing my recent piece on David Bentley Hart’s views about natural law.  Brandon Watson has already pointed out some of the problems with Kozinski’s article, but it’s worth making a few remarks.  Kozinski is the author of the important recent book The Political Problem of Religious Pluralism, and I have enjoyed the articles of his that I’ve read over the years.  However, this latest piece seems to me to manifest some of the foibles of too much post-Scholastic theology -- in particular, a tendency to conflate a view’s no longer being current with its having been proved wrong; a failure to make crucial conceptual distinctions; and a tendency to caricature the views of writers of a Scholastic bent.
 
Kozinski is pretty tendentious straight out of the gate.  He writes:

The classical view of metaphysics, at least as articulated by Edward Feser, presupposes an extrinsicist understanding of the relation of nature and grace, and reason and Faith, and is, therefore, not Thomistic.  It’s as if Feser has not read, or just not digested, the work of John Milbank, Tracey Rowland, and Alasdair MacIntyre.

Needless to say, that is a false alternative, since one could, of course, know and understand the views of Milbank and Rowland and simply think they are wrong.  (MacIntyre I do not necessarily disagree with about the specific matters at issue in Kozinski’s article, but neither is what he says incompatible with what I have said.  More on that below.) 

For those not in the know, “extrinsicist” is a buzzword for Nouvelle Theologie writers who like to think that the centuries-old tradition of Aquinas commentators, and the Neo-Scholastics in particular, somehow all got Aquinas wrong on questions of nature and grace, natural and supernatural.  When Kozinski says “not Thomistic,” what he really means is “not Thomistic as Nouvelle Theologie writers like de Lubac would reconstruct Thomas.”  And naturally, whether these writers get Aquinas right is itself a matter of controversy.  Indeed, there is a growing wave of reaction against the Nouvelle Theologie’s reaction against the tradition of the commentators.  It’s as if Kozinski has not read, or just not digested, Lawrence Feingold’s The Natural Desire to See God According to St. Thomas Aquinas and His Interpreters, Steven A. Long’s Natura Pura: On the Recovery of Nature in the Doctrine of Grace (a book praised by MacIntyre, let it be noted), Ralph McInerny’s Praeambula Fidei: Thomism and the God of the Philosophers, Bernard Mulcahy’s Aquinas’s Notion of Pure Nature and the Christian Integralism of Henri de Lubac, or Serge-Thomas Bonino’s edited volume Surnaturel: A Controversy at the Heart of Twentieth-Century Thomistic Thought.

In any event, Kozinski’s false alternative follows a straw man.  He starts out the article as follows:

What is at the heart of the debate over Hart? It is this: both the classical and new natural law schools are wrong if they think that the natural law can be known, lived, and legislated in abstraction from tradition and culture, which is, at heart, theological.

And Kozinski glosses this (by itself somewhat vague) characterization as follows:

In my view, both the classical and the new traditions neglect these four realities: 1) the mutually dependent relation of speculative and practical reason; 2) the subjectivity-shaping role of social practices; 3) the tradition-constituted-and-constitutive character of practical rationality; and 4) the indispensability of divine revelation in ethical inquiry and practice.

End quote.  Let’s consider these points in order.  Why Kozinksi thinks that classical natural law writers “neglect… the mutually dependent relation of speculative and practical reason,” I have no idea.  Classical natural law theory, as I noted in my article on Hart, is the approach to natural law that was standard in Neo-Scholastic manuals of ethics and moral theology in the pre-Vatican II period and in more recent decades has been defended by writers like Ralph McInerny, Henry Veatch, Russell Hittinger, David Oderberg, and Anthony Lisska.  If you read the old manuals, you will find that they are steeped in the Aristotelian-Thomistic metaphysics of essences and final causality.  Veatch advocated what he called an “ontology of morals.”  Lisska devoted a book (also praised by MacIntyre, for what it is worth) to showing how natural law in the tradition of Aquinas is grounded in a metaphysics of essences and dispositional properties.  Oderberg is no less keen to insist on “The Metaphysical Foundations of Natural Law.”  In my own case, as my longtime readers know, I absolutely never shut up about how ethics must be grounded in classical metaphysics.  And all of these writers would, I think, agree that ethics is also relevant to metaphysics insofar as in our knowledge of our own nature and rational and volitional powers we have examples of finality even more obvious and undeniable than those we see in the extra-human world.

So, where does Kozinksi get this idea that classical natural law theorists ignore the relationship between practical and speculative reason?  Again, I have no idea; certainly he provides no textual or philosophical support for this claim whatsoever.  “New natural law” theory might be accused of ignoring the relationship in question -- I’ll let its advocates defend themselves if they want  to, since as an “old” natural law theorist I think that particular charge against them is just -- but the classical version?  Not a chance.

What about this idea that natural law theory neglects “the subjectivity-shaping role of social practices” and “the tradition-constituted-and-constitutive character of practical rationality“?  Here too we have nothing but sheer assertion, unsupported either by quotations from natural law writers or philosophical analysis of the implications of their position.  And here too the characterization of natural law theory is simply wrong.  While I don’t necessarily buy everything that lies behind the passages from MacIntyre that Kozinski cites, the general idea that moral reasoning must always take place within a concrete social, historical, and cultural context is true enough as far as it goes.  Indeed, that reason and morality are unavoidably embedded in tradition is a thesis I’ve defended many times myself, such as here, here, and here.  How does this thesis conflict with anything natural law writers say?  Kozinski does not tell us.

Kozinski’s complaint is not a historicist or relativist one to the effect that there are no tradition- or culture-independent moral truths, for he evidently endorses the view that practical reason is “able and inherently ordered to transcend particularity and contingency to reach universal and necessary truth” and affirms the reality of an “intrinsic and necessary human nature and set of inclinations.”   So what’s the problem, exactly?

Perhaps Kozinski supposes that natural law theorists think that every individual is capable of spinning out the whole of morality from first principles, divorced from any context, from the armchair as it were.  But I know of no natural law theorist, “old” or “new,” who believes such a thing.  The natural law theorist claims merely that at least a good deal of morality, at least at the level of general principle, can be known in principle through philosophical reasoning apart from divine revelation (“natural law” being in this respect like “natural theology”); and also (in the case of “old” natural law theorists) that this knowledge can be had from the study of human nature.  But that is a far cry from saying that every human being or even very many human beings are in fact likely to arrive at explicit knowledge even of the general principles; and it certainly does not entail that the details of morality or the way moral principles ought to be applied to concrete circumstances can be arrived at in the abstract, divorced from concrete circumstances.

On the contrary, natural law theorists would follow Aquinas’s position that human law is required in order to give the natural law a “more particular determination” is some of its aspects, and that (as a passage Aquinas approvingly quotes from Tully puts it):

[J]ustice has its source in nature; thence certain things came into custom by reason of their utility; afterwards these things which emanated from nature and were approved by custom, were sanctioned by fear and reverence for the law.  (Summa Theologiae I-II.91.3)

Natural law theorists would also follow Aquinas’s view that what we can know by philosophical arguments alone is in practice typically incomplete, mixed with error, and arrived at only by a few.  Vis-à-vis natural theology, Aquinas writes:

Even as regards those truths about God which human reason could have discovered, it was necessary that man should be taught by a divine revelation; because the truth about God such as reason could discover, would only be known by a few, and that after a long time, and with the admixture of many errors.  (Summa Theologiae I.1.1)

He says something similar about ethics:

[O]n account of the uncertainty of human judgment, especially on contingent and particular matters, different people form different judgments on human acts; whence also different and contrary laws result (Summa Theologiae I-II.91.4)

Needless to say, these passages evince the opposite of a “Cartesian” view that would purport to discover moral truth “ex nihilo or, perhaps, ex individuo in [one’s] self-consciousness” via an “‘unaided’ or ‘pure’ form of reason” divorced from tradition, history, and the like (to cite Kozinski’s description of the sort of view he opposes).  And if Kozinski thinks that natural law theorists -- who are, especially in the case of us “old” natural law theorists, notoriously deferential to Aquinas -- hold that the Angelic Doctor got things wrong in these particular passages, I’d love to see the quotes from their works that back this claim up. 

This naturally brings us to the charge that natural law theorists “neglect… the indispensability of divine revelation in ethical inquiry and practice.”  As the passages from Aquinas just quoted indicate, to claim that a great deal of moral truth is in principle knowable via unaided reason is in no way to deny that in practice -- given the difficulty of philosophical reasoning and the errors to which we are prone -- divine revelation is needed in order for most people to have adequate knowledge even of the natural law. 

As Aquinas also emphasizes, divine revelation is necessary for all people if they are to have knowledge of what is necessary for us in order to attain our supernatural end -- the beatific vision, which transcends what we are naturally ordered to.  He writes:

Besides the natural and the human law it was necessary for the directing of human conduct to have a Divine law. And this for four reasons. First, because it is by law that man is directed how to perform his proper acts in view of his last end.  And indeed if man were ordained to no other end than that which is proportionate to his natural faculty, there would be no need for man to have any further direction of the part of his reason, besides the natural law and human law which is derived from it. But since man is ordained to an end of eternal happiness which is inproportionate to man's natural faculty, as stated above (Question 5, Article 5), therefore it was necessary that, besides the natural and the human law, man should be directed to his end by a law given by God... (Summa Theologiae I-II.91.4)

There are two points here that require equal emphasis in the present context.  First, the natural and supernatural ends of man are distinct -- so much so that to the realization of our natural end alone a “further direction” from divine revelation would not be strictly necessary, even if it is in practice fitting given the limitations of human nature.  (This does not mean, by the way, that knowledge of God is not necessary for attainment of man’s purely natural end -- the knowledge of God we can acquire via natural theology is certainly necessary -- only that a special divine revelation is not necessary for that end.)

The second point to emphasize is, of course, that for our supernatural end -- the beatific vision, which surpasses merely natural knowledge of God -- revelation is necessary.  But this is a separate end.  And that means that while the full story about man must include reference to both his natural and supernatural ends and to what is needed in order to realize each, there is in principle a body of moral knowledge that concerns man as he would have been in a state of pure nature.

Now, citing Jacques Maritain, Kozinski writes:

[A]ny science of human action that excludes the realm of the supernatural from its purview is deficient, and radically so.  There is no such thing as “pure ethics” if that means a discourse or methodology that excludes consideration of what God has revealed about the destiny of man.

If what Kozinski means by that is that the full story about the good for man must include both the natural and supernatural ends, then no natural law theorist (or no Catholic natural law theorist, anyway) would deny that.  But if he means that the natural law as such cannot be understood even in principle without reference to man’s supernatural end, then he’s just wrong.  It would not, in that case, be natural law.  Certainly he could not appeal to Aquinas in defense of such a claim -- and not to Maritain either, as Kozinski himself realizes, acknowledging that:

Maritain does distinguish between moral philosophy and moral theology, with the former relatively autonomous in its methodology and conclusions, and resolving its judgments in the light of human reason alone.

So once again, we have to ask what exactly Kozinski’s beef with natural law is.  And once again the answer just isn’t clear.  On the one hand Kozinski tells us, following Maritain, that “ethical inquiry is incomplete and bound to err if it is not ‘subalternated’ to theology” -- a claim which on one natural reading is just what the natural law theorist, following Aquinas, acknowledges in light of the difficulty, for most people, of philosophical reasoning and the fact that the complete story about man must include his supernatural end.  On the other hand, Kozinski acknowledges -- once again following Maritain -- that “moral philosophy… is distinct from theology in that it resolves its judgments in the natural light of practical reason and experience, not the light of divine revelation.”  And of course, Maritain, to whose views Kozinski appeals in at least much of his article, was himself a natural law theorist!  So, what exactly is it that natural law theorists have gotten wrong?  In particular, what exactly is it that I got wrong vis-à-vis revelation, the supernatural, etc. in my article on Hart?  The reader’s guess is as good as mine.

The rest of Kozinski’s article seems even more radically disconnected from anything I actually said in my reply to Hart -- and more opaque too.  For example, Kozinski writes:

Conservative theists such as Feser endorse wholeheartedly the infusion of integrally religious practices and discourse into the naked public square; yet they also tend to limit the participation in and scope of these practices and discourses to the in-house crowd, as it were.

End quote.  I’m not sure what to say about this except that I am not even sure what exactly he is attributing to me, nor how what I said in my reply to Hart (or anywhere else for that matter) prompted such a strange attribution!

350 comments:

  1. Professor Feser,

    You seem to say that man has two entirely separate ends. Isn't it more true to St. Thomas to say that "man's beatitude and happiness is twofold"?

    The phrase I notice St. Thomas emphasizing is "duplex hominis beatitudo"--which rather undermines a too sharp distinction.

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  2. Rank:

    Don't let dguller rope you guys into his misreading of the sense/referent business. You'll never get untangled. Stick to Aquinas's sources (instead of his infinitely benighted medieval and early modern commentators) if you want to make any sense at all of Aquinas's notion of analogy.

    First, what were Aquinas’ sources of his modus significandi and res significata distinction?

    Second, my claim that sense = modus significandi and referent = res significata was in the Rocca book that I cited in our earlier discussion. It is neither medieval nor early modern, but rather fairly contemporary.

    No, it isn't. This is your "partly the same, partly different" system that Aquinas never applied to God.

    I agree that he never applied it to God, because the nature of God is such that it cannot be applied to God. However, if God is such that such an account of analogy cannot be applicable, then there is no account of analogy left, because it has been drained of its fundamental and core meaning of partial identity and partial difference. Aquinas uses this account of analogy when comparing created entities, and it works just fine, but then he wants to piggyback it into a comparison of God and creation, which is impossible, because the core features of the doctrine of analogy that make it work within creation are utterly absent when it comes to comparing God and creation. So, what is left? A mysterious and magical practice that is absolutely inexplicable. Why not just say that miraculously and unaccountably, we can talk about God? That would be more honest.

    As I said in our last argument, the res is the analogous term; the sense is wholly denied. But the res is not univocal between God and creation: a res in creation is different in kind from whatever you might call a "res" in God. There is merely an analogy of proportion between the created res and its creator. This is A) the only way to read Aquinas in line with his sources and B) the only way that Aquinas himself can be seen to be internally consistent.

    First, I do not know what you mean by saying that “the res is the analogous term”? The res is what the term is about, and the term is just a symbol for the res.

    Second, as I responded before, to negate the sense can either mean that you are negating one sense in order to affirm another sense, or that there is no sense at all. If the former, then you are stuck with all the same problems, because any sense is an idol of our mind. If the latter, then the mind is literally empty and thus cannot be referring to anything at all. After all, the only way for a term to signify a res is via a mode of signification. The mode of signification is how the res presents itself to the human mind, and no mode equals nothing in the mind. How can an empty mind refer to anything at all?

    Third, even a proportion is a genus. Think about it this way. Take the following example: 2:4 :: 8:16. You have two comparisons:

    (1) 2:4
    (2) 8:16

    The proportion is the common relationship in that the second number is double the first number. But then (1) and (2) are both under that very common relationship, which is akin to a common category. However, this cannot be possible when it comes to God, because God cannot be part of any common category or genus, and so how can he shared a proportional relationship with creation at all? And if God transcends all possible relationships, then that must include all proportional relationships, too. Again, his transcendence compromises any and all kinds of knowledge of God.

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  3. @RS

    Why don't you explain or distill Fr. Lonergan's thesis for me re: physical premotion? I don't find him to be a particularly clear writer, but maybe I'm just dense. I don't see how one Jesuit's interpretation of St. Thomas is somehow the undoing of the Dominican position on the subject or "two hundred" years of Thomism. He says, "In conclusion one may compare the Thomist with the later positions [of St. Thomas]." (p. 399) So it seems like he is not definitively ruling out the Banezian interpretation with what he considers is the mature Aquinas on the matter. Earlier in the article he admits that "practically the two universes of discourse coincide [i.e., Aristotelian and Banezian premotion], for the human will is included explicitly among temporal agents..." Nevertheless, he argues for a radical difference of approach. Yet he never really cites or explains any texts from Banez and theorizes that St. Thomas limits himself to his (Lonergan's) reading of Aristotle's doctrine of premotion. Regardless, I can't respond to an article like this in a com box and wouldn't try. It would take more time and research in primary and secondary sources to make an informed judgment.

    After skimming his article, I do have a number of questions that I would have to work through because some of his statements seem to contradict what I know to be in St. Thomas's texts. For St. Thomas, causality does not always entail temporal priority of cause to effect. Further, the soul is an immaterial power, so the celestial hierarchy can have no direct influence on it (e.g., denies theories associated with astrology). Also, St. Thomas didn't "refute" Aristotle re: the eternity of the world as he said we could not know by reason that the universe began in time.

    Regardless, the texts in St. Thomas that I cited ultimately show that he held that God is the creator and sustainer of the form of the will and that He applies it to act. Furthermore, in certain circumstances He moves the will to a determinate end albeit without violence or necessity. If Lonergan is explaining this away by his interpretation of St. Thomas in terms of action/premotion, it is not entirely clear to me.

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  4. @dguller

    I got work to do so this is my last post till tonight.

    >As “theology”, all of them are ultimately mystical in the sense that I described.

    Science is ultimately about experimenting and collecting data and it's still not coherent to talk about the atomic weight of natural selection.


    >I’m open to that possibility, but it has to be demonstrated. I don’t know what the difference is between a logical and a metaphysical account of analogy. Can you explain it to me?

    I am still learning it myself but here is a link.

    http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/LOA.htm


    >Thomist philosophy is mystical theology. It is not a dry intellectual exercise, but rather part of a spiritual journey for a seeker of God, and thus the full appreciation of his efforts demands a corresponding religious vocation of self-purification to draw closer to God.

    Yes for believers who are trying to have a relationship with God & believe and trust in God. But for critics who claim there is a problem with the doctrine of analogy said analysis must be confined to natural theology using philosophical theology.

    No mind you I am NOT telling you not to study mystical theology. I am merely telling you not to make catagory mistakes.

    Do science but don't use a partical accellerator to try to study puntuated equalibrium.

    That would make no sense and the other scientists will look at you funny.

    Cheers.

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  5. DavidM:

    How do you know that the experience of divine mystery is simply the negation of experience?? Is it that you have experienced 'divine mystery' and are unable to tell us anything about it?

    Because that is the only way God could possibly show up to our minds, i.e. as a darkness, nothingness and emptiness, devoid of any conceptual or imaginative content whatsoever. In other words, the only way to know God is to not know God, the only way to experience God is to experience nothing, the only way to see God’s light is to see total darkness. It is confusion to say that we can have any experience of God. At least, that's what I understand from what I read.

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  6. Ben:

    Yes for believers who are trying to have a relationship with God & believe and trust in God. But for critics who claim there is a problem with the doctrine of analogy said analysis must be confined to natural theology using philosophical theology.

    And even confining oneself within those limitations exposes oneself to the mystical element of theology. Again, all theology is ultimately mystical, which just means that language unravels on its own at a certain point into meaninglessness, emptiness and darkness. Whether this is because it collapses under the weight of the divine, or whether there is nothing to support it at that point is undecidable. All we know and experience is the unraveling itself, and not the cause of the unraveling, which is beyond our ability to know and speak of.

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  7. @Charles: "But that is not what deLubac and company mean by a natural desire to see God."

    So is the dispute basically between Thomists who want to distinguish between what is (ontologically) innate (what pertains to the essence/perfection of every intellect) and what is 'natural' (to created intellects), and de Lubac and co. who want to say that there's no good reason for making such a distinction (since the latter is necessarily a case of the former)?

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  8. Sobieski:

    I had a marathon session with dguller on analogy awhile back. So I will have to pass. If I recall correctly and as I see it, he wants to reduce all analogy to univocity in the order of logic and being. I don't know if he has changed his view. But given my circumstances in life, I can't jump into another discussion like that. You might find Existentialists like Wippel, Owens and Knasas helpful on these matters.

    It is not what I want to do. It is what I conclude must be the case.

    One cannot argue that there is a radical discontinuity between God and creation separated by an infinite and unbridgeable gulf, and yet that there is a continuity between God and creation that facilitates our ability to know God to some extent via studying his creation. Either there is no bridge or there is a bridge. Either there is a discontinuity, or there is continuity. Theologians want to have it both ways when it is logically impossible. The doctrine of analogy tries to be a bridge that isn’t a bridge by providing continuity, but then denying the existence of any continuity whatsoever, which is incoherent.

    The only possible solution is the mystical one in which God is esse indistinctum, as Eckhart put it. God beyond all distinctions, including continuity and discontinuity, which would solve this problem, but it would also make God fundamentally unknowable, because our minds only work within the realm of distinction. That is why divine simplicity is an impenetrable darkness in which our thoughts and language unravel into nothingness and emptiness. And in that scenario, no analogy could save the day, because God would also be beyond analogy, which is rooted in a relationship between distinct entities that are similar in some way.

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  9. My dudes don't treat dguller like he is arguing in bad faith.

    Point out his mistakes but remember without him we are all reduced to arguing with the Paps', StoneTops' or djindra's & other gnus who go out of their way not to study philosophy!

    If it where not for dguller's principled skeptical challenges we would get soft intellectually!

    So I am out of here till later.

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  10. However, if God is such that such an account of analogy cannot be applicable, then there is no account of analogy left, because it has been drained of its fundamental and core meaning of partial identity and partial difference.

    Don't be ridiculous. You've turned Aquinas's off-hand remark from his Commentaries on the Metaphysics into the only possible system (dun dun dunnnn) of analogy. But that's obviously a-historical nonsense.

    but then he wants to piggyback it into a comparison of God and creation, which is impossible, because the core features of the doctrine of analogy that make it work within creation are utterly absent when it comes to comparing God and creation.

    When does he want to "piggyback" this idea? The partial similarity/difference equation appears in the Metaphysics, which is one of his very late works--and it does not appear in his discussion of divine analogy in the ST, which was written around the same time. There is no evidence that he tried to use the partial similiarity/difference framework when talking about God.

    First, I do not know what you mean by saying that “the res is the analogous term”? The res is what the term is about, and the term is just a symbol for the res.

    A res is a perfection, like "esse". A modus is a way in which that perfection manifests itself, like "being-of-a-rock". But, as Aquinas acknowledges, God does not have esse. Esse is created; God is uncreated. Every perfection, in fact, is created. As a result, everything that we know will be infinitely different from God, including esse itself.

    But we can apply esse "truly" (not "absolutely") to God, as Aquinas writes, because every created perfection is analogous to its creator. He Who Is is the highest name, as he says, because it signifies no inappropriate modus. But even He Who Is is an analogous name, because "Is" relates to esse, which is only analogously applicable to God.

    Third, even a proportion is a genus. Think about it this way.

    That's what's called an analogy of proportionality, which is fundamentally between created things in the genus of quantity. Again, see Aquinas's reply to objection 4 in ST Ia q12 a1 to understand the sense in which he uses "proportion" for God.

    But I'm not getting into this again. You just refuse to understand the fairly simple point Aquinas is making.

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  11. @dguller: So in the end you claim to know that the experience of divine mystery is simply the negation of experience... because "that's what [you] understand from what [you] read"? That seems like an extraordinarily weak argument. I would suggest that perhaps you don't really know what you claim to know, if that is all your argument rests upon.

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  12. So I just can't stand my own ignorance any more: what is a 'gnu' (if not a wildebeest)?

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  13. Rank:

    Don't be ridiculous. You've turned Aquinas's off-hand remark from his Commentaries on the Metaphysics into the only possible system (dun dun dunnnn) of analogy. But that's obviously a-historical nonsense.

    Be my guest and explicate analogy without making any reference to partial identity and partial difference. Aquinas says that it is neither total identity (i.e. univocity) nor total difference (i.e. equivocation). What is left other than partial identity and partial difference?

    A res is a perfection, like "esse". A modus is a way in which that perfection manifests itself, like "being-of-a-rock". But, as Aquinas acknowledges, God does not have esse. Esse is created; God is uncreated. Every perfection, in fact, is created. As a result, everything that we know will be infinitely different from God, including esse itself.

    Right.

    But we can apply esse "truly" (not "absolutely") to God, as Aquinas writes, because every created perfection is analogous to its creator.

    How does one know this? This only makes sense within the framework of a Neoplatonic metaphysics of participatory efficient causality, which God transcends by virtue of the fact that it is a framework of ordered hierarchies and God transcends all ordered hierarchies. So, the only justification for the use of analogy is within a framework that cannot possibly apply to God at all, and thus there is no justification to use analogy to try to bridge the gap between creation and God. At the end of the argument from the within the framework is a radical nothingness, darkness and emptiness.

    That's what's called an analogy of proportionality, which is fundamentally between created things in the genus of quantity. Again, see Aquinas's reply to objection 4 in ST Ia q12 a1 to understand the sense in which he uses "proportion" for God.

    Here’s what he writes:

    “In another sense every relation of one thing to another is called proportion. And in this sense there can be a proportion of the creature to God, inasmuch as it is related to Him as the effect of its cause, and as potentiality to its act; and in this way the created intellect can be proportioned to know God.”

    How does this answer the fourth objection? Aquinas basically just redefines “proportion” to mean “relation”. But then what is the status of this relationship? The relation of creature to God is analogous to the relation between an effect and a cause. So, you can write it as follows:

    (1) creature:God
    (2) effect:cause

    What exactly is the relation here? God cannot be a cause at all, because “cause” cannot be predicated of God due to his radical transcendence. And I still contend that it makes no sense to say that the creature is the effect of God, but God is not the cause of the creature. They are logically intertwined such that denial of one entails the denial of the other.

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  14. It is the same problem as with partial identity and partial difference. This account works perfectly well within creation, as you yourself endorse. Similarly, causal accounts also work perfectly well within creation. However, once one steps outside creation, then such accounts fail, because they derive their sense and meaning from within creation. To say that creation is an effect implies that creation must have a cause, because it is the nature of an effect to be caused. To further say that the only possible cause of creation is God, but that God is not a cause logically implies that there is no cause of creation, because the only possible cause cannot be a cause at all, and that also means that creation is not an effect, either, which undermines the entire account.

    You and Aquinas keep wanting to talk about God, but are trapped within an account that makes all talk about God impossible, because the language itself unravels into meaninglessness. The only true talk about God is utter silence, because to talk about God is not to talk about God, but only about cognitive idols that mask an underlying darkness, emptiness and nothingness.

    But I'm not getting into this again. You just refuse to understand the fairly simple point Aquinas is making.

    I do understand the point, but it undermines his entire account.

    Nice chatting with you, as always. By the way, I'm learning a lot in my reading of classical and medieval Christianity. You were right, there was an entire Christian tradition that Aquinas was attempting to articulate in a new way using Aristotelian tools within a Neoplatonic framework. Very interesting stuff.

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  15. DavidM:

    @dguller: So in the end you claim to know that the experience of divine mystery is simply the negation of experience... because "that's what [you] understand from what [you] read"? That seems like an extraordinarily weak argument. I would suggest that perhaps you don't really know what you claim to know, if that is all your argument rests upon.

    If you want a more fleshed out explanation, read Denys Turner’s The Darkness of God: Negativity in Christian Mysticism. That’s where I got this account from. I found it persuasive, but I’m certainly no expert. I'm currently reading his Faith, Reason and the Existence of God as a Thomist explanation of the use of reason to justify the existence of God despite its intrinsic tension of cataphatic and apophatic dynamics. Interesting stuff.

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  16. As a participant in the quarterly Debate on Analogy, I second the motion for a general post or series of posts directly addressing the most pertinent part of Dguller's critique. And I would consider his sense/reference points to be the main points of contention, mostly because Prof. Feser himself uses those distinctions in his works to briefly describe analogical predication.

    I don't care for Rank's way of going about the discussion (though he may be ultimately right), mostly because it's beyond my ken. If the point of the Eastern/Continental approach says language about God is intelligible, but ultimately unintelligible, then I'll take my chances rejecting the Eastern/Continental approach.

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  17. @dguller: "God cannot be a cause at all, because “cause” cannot be predicated of God due to his radical transcendence." - Okay, you got RS on this one, since he claims that too. But what if that's wrong?? How do you *know* this: that God cannot be a cause at all? (I hope we can at least say that *God* did not cause you to 'know' it.)

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  18. As a participant in the quarterly Debate on Analogy, I second the motion for a general post or series of posts directly addressing the most pertinent part of Dguller's critique. And I would consider his sense/reference points to be the main points of contention, mostly because Prof. Feser himself uses those distinctions in his works to briefly describe analogical predication.

    Let's do it!!!!!!!

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  19. "If you want a more fleshed out explanation, read Denys Turner’s The Darkness of God: Negativity in Christian Mysticism." - Maybe someday, but not today. In the meantime you should perhaps just recognize that your actual position: "some book says X and it sounded good to me" does not imply your claim: "I know that X is true." It would probably be worthwhile, just for your own understanding of (and ability to accurately articulate) your own position, if you kept that in mind.

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  20. I agree, dguller deserves that much, he is a serious critic and a good thinker I think he deserves to be answered by an especialist of some sort.

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  21. Hmmm...

    Turner writes that “it is this interplay of negativity and affirmation which structures all theological discourse precisely as theological” (Ibid., p. 54) ... and dguller argues that “it is negativity which structures all theological discourse precisely as theological”.

    Turner writes that “the tensions between affirmation and negation within all theological speech are, precisely, what determine it to be theological speech, and to be, in the only worthwhile sense of the term, ‘mystical’” (Ibid., p. 61) ... and dguller argues that “the negation within all theological speech is, precisely, what determine it to be theological speech, and to be, in the only worthwhile sense of the term, ‘mystical’”.

    I see what you did there.

    My man, have you even read QQ. 12 and 13 of the Summa Theologiae? Please read them CAREFULLY and then refer to the quotation I gave from the Catholic Encyclopedia to follow up with those other readings.

    I also think you're being very wooden about the transcendence issue. God's transcendence just means that all perfections, INCLUDING BEING ITSELF, have their unified origin in God, though this truth is known by the manifold modes of beings' various perfections as "participations" in God. God's transcendence is just that which makes the world into a unified reality, since all finite beings are commonly subject to His power. He is utterly removed from ("transcendent to") the potency and contingency of their ways-of-being. It is, however, precisely in being subjects of His power that God is known as immanent in them.

    God, by the way, is not the only thing that outstrips language. Language deals with essence (definition) while being deals with existence (exemplification). All actual existents surpass their essence since an essence is never known apart from its existent(s). So, as James Ross mentions time and again in _Thought and World_, there is an "ontic overflow" in things which constantly escapes total verbal and formal explication, and this a fortiori applies to God.

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  22. In light of Codg's comment, I should emend my own: "...In the meantime you should perhaps just recognize that your actual position: "some book says X and it sounded good to me" CERTAINLY does not imply your claim: "I know that Y is true."

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  23. DavidM:

    Maybe someday, but not today. In the meantime you should perhaps just recognize that your actual position: "some book says X and it sounded good to me" does not imply your claim: "I know that X is true." It would probably be worthwhile, just for your own understanding of (and ability to accurately articulate) your own position, if you kept that in mind.

    It is not just an argument from authority. Turner argues a case in a way that I find persuasive. Certainly, I cannot provide his entire argument in a combox, and if you want to know if his position is persuasive, then you should read the book yourself. I am not saying that because Turner is so awesomely fantastic that he should be believed, but rather that he argued his position well. Is that objectionable to you? Am I saying that his case is airtight and absolutely certainly true? Of course not. I am open to the possibility that my claims are wrong, but at this, according to what I know, I think he is right.

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  24. @dguller: If, when asked to explain your belief, you merely repeat that belief and cite an authority, make no mistake: that is nothing but an argument from authority. If you add that your authority has a good argument that you will not be presenting, that is still nothing but an argument from authority.

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  25. emend "...argument THAT you will..." to "...argument, ONE WHICH you will not be presenting, ..."

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  26. Sobieski,

    Regardless, the texts in St. Thomas that I cited ultimately show that he held that God is the creator and sustainer of the form of the will and that He applies it to act. Furthermore, in certain circumstances He moves the will to a determinate end albeit without violence or necessity. If Lonergan is explaining this away by his interpretation of St. Thomas in terms of action/premotion, it is not entirely clear to me.

    He is indeed explaining "away" (actually, just explaining) the Banezian interpretation, because it is manifestly false. (In case you weren't clear on his opinion of the Banezian reading, he says in another work that it "destroys human free will, does away with truly sufficient grace, and makes God the author of sin".)

    Here is what Lonergan is saying in that article. First, he explains that "A causes B" does not mean that A changes so that B can change. If A had to change when it changed B, then A would no longer be A when it changed B--a contradiction. And this is what happens if we take the accident "acting" (category 9) as beginning to exist in A when B undergoes "passion" (category 10). So, A-as-cause undergoes no change; B is the only thing that takes on accidents. This means that "acting" is only a notional existent in the cause, rather than something ontological. In basic terms, categories 9 and 10 are identical in reality (they exist in one simultaneous event), and they begin to exist solely in the moved, rather than in the mover (a contradiction) or between the mover and moved. In ontological terms, this means that A remains totally the same and that B is the only thing that changes.

    However, there must be an explanation of why B is changed at one time rather than another. We have the necessary but not the sufficient condition for action. A stays the same, but why did it change B at time X rather than time Y? As Lonergan writes, this means that A and B presuppose some third entity C. He refers to C as "premotion". What is Lonergan's premotion? Merely that movement which unites A with B. This is not to say "C causes A causes B". Instead:

    "an iceberg at the Pole will not be melted by the sun; to have the motion, melting, it is necessary to change the relative positions of the sun and the iceberg; and this may be done either by sending the iceberg towards the equator or moving the sun up above the Arctic circle."

    The iceberg is B, the sun is A. The change in the positions of the sun and iceberg is C: premotion, or a motion "prior" to the event of change. Premotion is prior in time to the temporally simultaneous change in A and B. Lonergan's premotion, then, is that which applies A to act by altering the locations of A and B:

    "for presumably the cook puts [C] meat [B] on the fire [A] to apply the fire to cooking, the woodsman swings [C] his axe [A] before the axe is applied to chopping [B; the implied wood], the man moves [C] his knife [A] before the knife is applied to cutting [B; the implied material]."

    Also, a critical point is that application does not always entail a premotion of A's position toward B. As in the cooking example, B can be moved toward A. But in all cases A is an instrument of C, since it is C that "applies" A (i.e. allows A to change B).

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  27. Now, what is C? Nothing more than final causality. Let me explain. God creates (efficient cause) and directs (final cause) all things immediately, the latter of which is what Aquinas calls Providence. The final cause is the sufficient condition for change, after the necessary condition which is the promixity of A and B. A final cause only fails when another final cause is interrupting it. There is no "additional" motion on top of this innate motion. As a result, the final cause of the sun (heating) will only fail to melt the iceberg if some other final cause is interrupting it, such as gravitational pull. But every final cause is applied to act by another final cause--fire cannot cook unless man's intention (or a "chance" event) places meat near it. This means that everything is applied to act by something else; and God, as the director of every final cause, becomes that which applies all things to act. Everything is God's instrument.

    This is merely a way of speaking about the position I already endorsed: God gives us being and directs us to an end, sustaining both; but he determines none of our specific actions, since these are brought about by the relationships of secondary causes via final causality.

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  28. "for presumably the cook puts [C] meat [B] on the fire [A] to apply the fire to cooking, the woodsman swings [C] his axe [A] before the axe is applied to chopping [B; the implied wood], the man moves [C] his knife [A] before the knife is applied to cutting [B; the implied material]."
    "Now, what is C? Nothing more than final causality."

    Oh LORDY! So "the cook puts" and "the woodsman swings" and "the man moves" is all nothing more than final causality. Doesn't that just clarify with the fresh bright light of day all of our difficulties? Good night.

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  29. DavidM:

    @dguller: If, when asked to explain your belief, you merely repeat that belief and cite an authority, make no mistake: that is nothing but an argument from authority. If you add that your authority has a good argument that you will not be presenting, that is still nothing but an argument from authority.

    I have explained my belief.

    Our thought and language is rooted in distinction. Any thought or word is distinct from other thoughts and words, for example, according to some common standard of comparison. It follows that anything that is beyond all distinction cannot be contained within thought and language. Since God is metaphysically simple, he is beyond all dichotomies, distinctions and differentiations, including affirmation and negation, identity and difference, transcendence and immanence, and so on. But if that is the case, then he cannot be represented to human beings whose minds can only experience and understand that which is rooted in distinction. So, all we can experience is the breakdown of experience into nothingness and darkness, which is not just another experience, but the complete absence of experience altogether.

    Does that count as an explanation?

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  30. Codg:

    I also think you're being very wooden about the transcendence issue. God's transcendence just means that all perfections, INCLUDING BEING ITSELF, have their unified origin in God, though this truth is known by the manifold modes of beings' various perfections as "participations" in God. God's transcendence is just that which makes the world into a unified reality, since all finite beings are commonly subject to His power. He is utterly removed from ("transcendent to") the potency and contingency of their ways-of-being. It is, however, precisely in being subjects of His power that God is known as immanent in them.

    Transcendence ultimately has to do with going beyond some limit. What is the limit that God transcends on your account? Is the limit just the created universe and its inhabitants? If that is the limit, then the further question is how one can bridge the gap between the transcendent God and the immanent created universe. If one can bridge the gap, as you have done in your account above, then God was not actually beyond after all, but rather is enclosed within creation, which would contradict his infinity. And that would make him a domesticated, univocal and onto-theological deity. Furthermore, to use creation as a medium through which to know God is to attempt to understand simplicity on the basis of multiplicity, which is impossible, because there will always be a residue of multiplicity in our understanding, since only God is metaphysically simple, and thus we will always infinitely fall short of God in our thoughts and words.

    God, by the way, is not the only thing that outstrips language. Language deals with essence (definition) while being deals with existence (exemplification). All actual existents surpass their essence since an essence is never known apart from its existent(s). So, as James Ross mentions time and again in _Thought and World_, there is an "ontic overflow" in things which constantly escapes total verbal and formal explication, and this a fortiori applies to God.

    But theology is different. I am not talking about something beyond language, but something that fundamentally breaks down language into meaninglessness and incoherence. Yes, talking about a dog will always leave out aspects of the dog in question, but language does not break down in the very talking itself.

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  31. dguller,

    Nice chatting with you, as always. By the way, I'm learning a lot in my reading of classical and medieval Christianity. You were right, there was an entire Christian tradition that Aquinas was attempting to articulate in a new way using Aristotelian tools within a Neoplatonic framework.

    Same to you. And that's good to hear--I've been doing more digging into that material, myself. If you haven't found it already, there's a solid (but far from complete) archive of translated patristic writings over on New Advent.

    Anyway, partly against my better judgment (could voluntarism be true after all?!), I'm going to give one more reply. This is, in large part, because I think I've found the answer to the last serious objection you've given of my account of analogy: the problem of effects without univocal causes.

    How does one know this? This only makes sense within the framework of a Neoplatonic metaphysics of participatory efficient causality, which God transcends by virtue of the fact that it is a framework of ordered hierarchies and God transcends all ordered hierarchies. So, the only justification for the use of analogy is within a framework that cannot possibly apply to God at all, and thus there is no justification to use analogy to try to bridge the gap between creation and God. At the end of the argument from the within the framework is a radical nothingness, darkness and emptiness.

    1. A contingent entity must be grounded in something other than itself. (Denial of this is a contradiction)
    2. All esse is contingent. (Five Ways)
    3. All contingent things represent those things in which they are grounded. (Via relation)
    4. Therefore, contingent esse represents something other than itself, which is not itself contingent.

    This is a very simple point. Every premise in this syllogism is true. Therefore, the conclusion must be true, even though the conclusion points beyond the knowable. It is the very last logical deduction that can exist before human thinking collapses into negation. But the premises work exclusively from creation and in no way implicate anything beyond it, and so you cannot throw around your objection that God is being pre-emptively placed into a logical framework.

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  32. And I still contend that it makes no sense to say that the creature is the effect of God, but God is not the cause of the creature. They are logically intertwined such that denial of one entails the denial of the other.

    And I, at last, have discovered the source of our confusion--thanks to that argument with Sobieski about Lonergan. Causality is only notionally present in any given cause. Category 9 has no real existence in even contingent causes, let alone in God. Category 10 is present in the effect, and 9 is "formally" (read: logically) present in the cause, but this does not entail that category 9 begins to exist in the cause. This means that causes are called such a posteriori in all cases: categories 9 and 10 are different ways of looking at a singular event that takes place within the effect alone. In other words, it is completely appropriate to say that creatures were caused by God without simultaneously affirming the name "cause" of God univocally, or of implicating God in any knowable standard of causality. This does not sever the connection between cause and effect, as you've argued in the past, because causality inheres in effects alone.

    I think this may finally solve the problem. I hope it does, at least.

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  33. @DavidM:
    "So is the dispute basically between Thomists who want to distinguish between what is (ontologically) innate (what pertains to the essence/perfection of every intellect) and what is 'natural' (to created intellects), and de Lubac and co. who want to say that there's no good reason for making such a distinction (since the latter is necessarily a case of the former)?"

    Not exactly. I've been discussing the inclination of intellect, but the question is more focused on the ordination of the will to God. The question is whether the will's innate tendency is to desire God, or whether that desire is an elicited, and therefore a conditional and inefficacious desire. The importance of the consideration of intellect is that the intellect specifies the will's act. And so when I know that God exists and that his essence is intelligible, the intellect naturally inclines to know that essence, and judges that that knowledge would be perfective of it. This elicits a will (simple velle) to see God, but this desire remains otiose (a velleity) without the offer of the beatific vision and the means to attain it, for an analysis of our intellectual powers reveals our incapacity to attain it by natural means. DeLubac and co. want to deny that our desire for God is conditional and inefficacious.

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  34. dguller,

    I should clarify one more point. Causality in the strong sense is applied only to God, who alone creates the things on which secondary causes act. I believe this is what the much-contested Second Way is trying to get across. Your objection so far has been that the language of cause and effect as it applies to change (i.e. categorical events) is fundamentally an equivocation when applied to creation, since change involves an ontological agent and creation does not. But since change does not involve an ontological agent--as I explained above, agents are discussed notionally a posteriori in all cases--, your objection to creation no longer works. It isn't an equivocation to use language of cause and effect, because all such language, regardless of the situation, is a posteriori. Thus, creation can be affirmed and God can be called a cause notionally, even though we cannot comprehend his method of causality in univocal terms.

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  35. dguller (emphasis added):

    "[T]here will always be a residue of multiplicity in our understanding, since only God is metaphysically simple, and thus we will always infinitely fall short of God in our thoughts and words."

    1) So you're a Thomist, after all! The issue of multiplicity is uncontroversial, though, obviously its elucidation is. Again, have you read ST I, QQ. 12 and 13? Your claim here is simply Thomas' point. As others have noted, you go on and on about how we know nothing (literally!) about God, but then buttress that thesis with cataphatic claims like, oh, "only God is metaphysically simple". Ever hear of the problem of retorsion?

    2) Speaking of retorsion and linguistic confusion, you are wrong that language only breaks down in theology. For instance, I challenge you, or anyone, to given an entirely verbal account of general relativity and quantum mechanics without reaching the same kind of "darkness of mind." Likewise, have you not read the Platonic dialogues, in which Socrates repeatedly draws his interlocutors into aporia and obscurity? Even Wittgenstein realized that the world itself is mystical. Indeed, that's just the point: everything can be mystical "to some extent" because the Source of everything is infinitely mystical––beyond any extent or measure. Even so, this is no basis whatsoever for rejecting speech and thought about the world, nor about God. Your argument, with its fixation on God's infinity––and I again must ask if you've carefully read ST I QQ. 7 and 8––, boils down to something like this: because a curve is asymptotic to an axis, we can't plot the curve. God's infinity relates to His being the first principle, and simply means there is no limit to what (or how many things) can depend on His power––"[all] things flow forth infinitely from the first principle" (ST I q. 7, a. 1, co.).

    3) The limit at which God transcends is the cleft between essence and existence. That is a cleft to which all creation is subject, and to deny such a cleft in God is just to call Him transcendent. Notice how, once more, only explicitly this time ("a domesticated, univocal and onto-theological deity"), your desire for a univocal account of God disqualifies any analogical account in principle. That's a (Kantian) cognitive bias on your part, not actually an argument.

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  36. Oh LORDY! So "the cook puts" and "the woodsman swings" and "the man moves" is all nothing more than final causality. Doesn't that just clarify with the fresh bright light of day all of our difficulties? Good night.

    I generally ignore your short and snotty quips, but I'm going to use this one to explain something to Sobieski and whoever else is reading this.

    Aquinas saw final causality as the actualizing force of all other causes. This includes efficient causality. The force to move comes after the final cause to move in that direction, and the efficient cause is nothing more than an expression of the final cause. Modern mechanistic causation of the Banezian variety places efficiency first and finality second, which means that final causes of themselves cannot be efficacious. Aquinas held that final causes were always efficacious unless other final causes were interrupting them. The confusion over this is a result of the transition from ancient to modern metaphysics, which explains why Aquinas's medieval and modern commentators were so unbelievably bad at understanding him.

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  37. ERROR: "The issue of multiplicity is uncontroversial, though, obviously, its elucidation is not."

    And me weren't even drunk!

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  38. BenYachov:

    Here's an essential text: De Trinitate Boethii q. 1, a. 2, esp. [in the reply] §§4, 6, 7, 8 and [in the answers to objections] ad 1, ad 2, ad 3, ad 4.

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  39. Thank boss.

    Here is a Description of the book THE DARKNESS OF GOD.

    For the medieval mystical tradition, the Christian soul meets God in a "cloud of unknowing," a divine darkness of ignorance. This meeting with God is beyond all knowing and beyond all experiencing. Mysticisms of the modern period, on the contrary, place "mystical experience" at the center, and contemporary readers are inclined to misunderstand the medieval tradition in "experientialist" terms. Denys Turner argues that the distinctiveness and contemporary relevance of medieval mysticism lies precisely in its rejection of "mystical experience," and locates the mystical firmly within the grasp of the ordinary and the everyday. The argument covers some central authorities in the period from Augustine to John of the Cross.END QUOTE

    The book is awesome. To put it in cruder terms Turner contents that the Medieval & ancient approach to Mysticism had little or nothing to do with seeking some sort of "burning in the bosom" as Mormon missionaries might tell you. Also, not that I am putting down Charismatics, but this spirituality is a bit different from their enthusiasm driven prayers.

    But it seems to have little to say about the scholastic doctrine of analogy.

    Thomism is obvious concerned with more than mere natural theology. But the doctrine of analogy is part of natural theology and is related to our natural knowledge of the Divine.

    It can only be addressed in this context.

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  40. @dguller

    By "want" I did not intend to impute some ill motive or agenda to you as if you were being intellectually dishonest. It was a manner of speaking, and I am sorry if it gave offense.

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  41. Natural Theology with tell you that we can threw reason know God exists and some things about Him but to have a greater knowing of God in religion you have to go beyond natural theology and with Love, Faith and Prayer have an actual relationship with the almighty.

    As the Cloud of Unknowing says God cannot be captured & held by the intellect only by Love.

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  42. Rank:

    This is a very simple point. Every premise in this syllogism is true. Therefore, the conclusion must be true, even though the conclusion points beyond the knowable. It is the very last logical deduction that can exist before human thinking collapses into negation. But the premises work exclusively from creation and in no way implicate anything beyond it, and so you cannot throw around your objection that God is being pre-emptively placed into a logical framework.

    First, with regards to premise 1, I think that if it is truly rooted in our shared empirical experience, then it would better be construed as a contingent entity must be grounded in another contingent entity. After all, that is what we all experience in the contingent universe.

    Second, you would have to specify what you mean by “grounded” in premise 1. The only possible meaning is one that is operative from within the framework of contingent reality, but that would lead to a contradiction in the conclusion, because you would have a non-contingent ground of contingent reality, which is a contradiction in terms since “ground” only makes sense as a contingent ground.

    Third, when you use relationality as the basis of ground, you must know that relation is a category, and thus cannot apply to the transcendentals, and thus not to God.

    Causality is only notionally present in any given cause. Category 9 has no real existence in even contingent causes, let alone in God. Category 10 is present in the effect, and 9 is "formally" (read: logically) present in the cause, but this does not entail that category 9 begins to exist in the cause. This means that causes are called such a posteriori in all cases: categories 9 and 10 are different ways of looking at a singular event that takes place within the effect alone. In other words, it is completely appropriate to say that creatures were caused by God without simultaneously affirming the name "cause" of God univocally, or of implicating God in any knowable standard of causality. This does not sever the connection between cause and effect, as you've argued in the past, because causality inheres in effects alone.

    It would be helpful if you could spell this out with an example.

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  43. And here's my guide for citing De Trinitate Boethii:

    "Mention is rarely made of the fact that the teaching about God in the Summa Theologica begins with this sentence: 'We are not capable of knowing what God is, but we can know what he is not.' I know of no textbook of Thomistic thought which contains the notion expressed by St. Thomas in his commentary on the De Trinitate of Boethius, namely that there are three degrees in our knowledge of God: the lowest, the knowledge of God as he is active in creation; the second, the recognition of God as mirrored in spiritual beings; the third and loftiest, the recognition of God as Unknown, tamquam ignotum. Or consider this sentence from the Questiones Disputatae: 'This is what is ultimate in the human knowledge of God: to know that we do not know God.'"

    –– Josef Pieper, The Silence of St. Thomas, p. 64

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  44. dguller,

    First, with regards to premise 1, I think that if it is truly rooted in our shared empirical experience, then it would better be construed as a contingent entity must be grounded in another contingent entity. After all, that is what we all experience in the contingent universe.

    It's not an empirical observation--it's a logical necessity. A contingent entity is one which relies on something outside of itself. If you explained one contingent entity in terms of another, you would then have to explain that contingent entity. And so on, forever, without any single contingent entity providing that on which all others rely. This means that the first contingent entity has not been explained and thus cannot exist.

    Second, you would have to specify what you mean by “grounded” in premise 1. The only possible meaning is one that is operative from within the framework of contingent reality, but that would lead to a contradiction in the conclusion, because you would have a non-contingent ground of contingent reality, which is a contradiction in terms since “ground” only makes sense as a contingent ground.

    A ground is that on which the contingent entity relies. Again: a contingent entity is one that relies on something else. However, if everything is contingent, then nothing is explained and nothing exists.

    Third, when you use relationality as the basis of ground, you must know that relation is a category, and thus cannot apply to the transcendentals, and thus not to God.

    True enough. But transcendentals aren't ever subsistent, so it doesn't make that much of a difference. Esse doesn't exist: it's a component in a substance that exists, which has the category of relation to those things on which it relies. Technically, my syllogism would be tighter if I'd used the word "beings" instead of esse, to signify ens--but it's not that big of a deal.

    It would be helpful if you could spell this out with an example.

    Let's say that a ball breaks a window. The ball is X and the window is Y. If X takes on category 9 when Y takes on category 10, then X is no longer X and has become some entity X2. Both X and Y have changed. However, if X cannot break Y without becoming X2, then it follows that X cannot change Y. As Lonergan says, there are three possible answers.

    1. X remains X despite being moved, which is a contradiction.
    2. X is preceded by a cause Z that itself becomes Z2 upon changing X into X2, which is an infinite regress that precludes the Unmoved Mover.
    3. X does not change.

    Aristotle and Aquinas both take 3 out of necessity. This means that X does not take on category 9 when it changes, which means that X is not an ontological cause but only a logical one. Think of it this way. Categories 9 and 10 are a notional division of a singular change that occurs in Y, and 9 is applied to X logically but not really. Hence, to say "X caused Y" is to say "Y changed" and then to apply category 9 mentally to X. Category 9 is not really distinct from category 10, which appears in Y. All discussions of causality are thus a posteriori, even in the most basic cases.

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  45. A few clarifying remarks.

    First, I'm using a posteriori in the way that Aquinas uses it ("from the effects") and not in the modern way, which is an empirical judgment.

    Second, to say that X does not change does not contradict the First Way. As the First Way was originally conceived (by Aristotle), Y would automatically change if it was in a certain relation (proximity, etc.) with X, given the formal and final causes of X and Y. X breaks Y iff Y is in a certain relation to X and X can break Y (given the formal and final causes involved). If both conditions are fulfilled, X will always break Y automatically.

    The First Way states that, if X and Y are in relation F (= a relation such that X can break Y), then it follows that there must be some entity Z that brought F about. Why? Because our world is an ocean of final causes interrupting one another. If this wasn't the case, then everything would be absolutely simultaneous. X would have always already broken Y. As a result, we must say that there was a temporally prior event that brought X and Y into F. If X is still the baseball and Y is still the window, then let's say that Z is a throwing arm. But Z itself required some event M to remove its impediment, or it would have already occurred. And so on. This is the First Way as Aristotle conceived it, and Aquinas takes it basically whole cloth. As you can see, it doesn't require that X become X2 in order for the Unmoved Mover to be relevant.

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  46. Oh, one more thing.

    Third, I'm not saying that there can't be a priori analyses of causality. Obviously there can be, or we'd be in a load of Humean trouble. But this takes place when we understand a thing's form and the final causes that that form manifests. It has nothing to do with discussing particular instances causation, which are fundamentally a posteriori.

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  47. To cite an(other) authority who says in so many words what I said to dguller above about the "limit" of creation vis-à-vis God:

    "[Aquinas'] reconciliation [of the immanence and transcendence of God] is most compelling because Aquinas claims that God is most transcendent from, and most immanent in, creation for the very same reason, i.e. because God is Ipsum esse subsistens (Subsistent Act of Existing Itself). …

    "Since every creature is a composition of essence and esse, there must be a First Cause of this composition that is Himself uncomposed. In God there is no distinction between What He is, i.e. His Essence, and the act wherby He is. (Summa Theologiae Ia, 3, 4) Thus, because God is utterly simple, and not composed, and utterly perfect, he utterly transcends every creature [under the aspect of its radical potency]. …

    "Hence, by one and the same principle, that God is "impsum esse subsistens," Aquinas is able to claim that God is at once most trancendent, and infinitely so, from creatures, and that God is most immanently active in his creation. Although God, as Aquinas conceives him philosophically, is utterly Other than his creation (as the Judeo-Christian tradition maintains) He is no Divine Watchmaker, who set the cosmos running but has no further connection with his creation. Rather, for Aquinas, God is 'innermostly' present precisely because He is utterly Other."

    Not tooting my own horn here, just adding more insight for dguller or anyone unnerved by his mostly Ockhamist/Kantian objections to consider. I honestly don't know if he is (re)reading the citations to which I and others have directed him, but his intransigence on this issue leaves me… nonplussed. I mean, here we have, from what I can gather, an atheist not only implicitly granting the validity of the claims of natural theology as represented by this argument but also lecturing theists on their idols in light of theosis and mysticism. God, if only all atheists were like that. In effect, if I read Yannaras right, dguller is a(nother) Heideggerian sans icons.

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  48. Oops, I hef fawgotten ze link to ze abof qvotations. Und by tooting mein eigenes Horn, I meant not ahguing from ausority, ov course.

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  49. @RS

    Thanks for your explanation. It clears things up a bit regarding your position.

    He is indeed explaining "away" (actually, just explaining) the Banezian interpretation, because it is manifestly false. (In case you weren't clear on his opinion of the Banezian reading, he says in another work that it "destroys human free will, does away with truly sufficient grace, and makes God the author of sin".)

    The Jesuits have been opposed to Dominican Thomism on predestination, so if this is true, his attitude wouldn't be surprising in that sense. As a Catholic theologian, however, such an attitude wouldn't be obedient or charitable because as I mentioned earlier, the interpretation of St. Thomas by Banez and his confreres was never condemned by the Church as heretical (i.e., by doing away with free will, etc.). The pope explicitly forbade such comments in fact.

    Like I said, I would need to look at the texts Lonergan is citing to make his case before making any judgment, but will offer some initial concerns regarding your explanation:

    * God's active power is always active. Any change in creatures would not entail a change in God (i.e., a beginning of action). I am confident the Dominicans would not make such a basic mistake with respect to physical premotion, and I am unsure why the Thomist account of physical premotion would entail a change in God in this respect.

    * This means that "acting" is only a notional existent in the cause, rather than something ontological. In the case of God, knowledge, power, goodness, etc. are one with His essence (i.e., being) for St. Thomas. There is no distinction in God between notional and ontological existence. God's knowledge of me is the cause of my being. They are not distinct. So too would His knowledge be the cause of action since action is a being. God's power is always active from all eternity, however, and doesn't stop and start as if subject to the procession of changes in time.

    * Lonergan says that "premotion" is the removal of an impediment like that temporally prior to physical motion that accounts for a change at a particular time. But with respect to God, I don't see why this is to the point with respect to the will (vs. in the case of changes in material beings with respect to the celestial hierarchy). Further, St. Thomas said such cosmological theories (of Aristotle) were revisable given new evidence, so it is hard to see how the celestial hierarchy is a crucial factor in God's movement of the will. God is outside of time and as an immaterial power the will is not subject to the alterations of the heavens.

    * As in the cooking example, B can be moved toward A. But in all cases A is an instrument of C, since it is C that "applies" A (i.e. allows A to change B). Are you saying that a premotion C applies A to B as an instrument, where A is God and B is the will? If so that is highly problematic because it subordinates God to the premotion.

    * The explanation of C as a final cause is odd to say the least because every example given for C is an instance of efficient causality (e.g., change of position is a motion requiring an efficient cause directing the change in location from one place to another, the latter place being the proximate final cause). In the case of the will, a particular good may be the reason for an act of will, but the actual act of willing, which requires a reduction from potency to act, would have to fall under God's efficient causality if we want to avoid making the will a first mover outside of God's power.

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  50. God gives us being and directs us to an end, sustaining both; but he determines none of our specific actions, since these are brought about by the relationships of secondary causes via final causality.

    Regardless of Lonergan's exegesis, this statement flatly contradicts St. Thomas's text because he explicitly says, following Scripture, that God can cause one to will this or that. You have not dealt with that text and just keep asserting Aquinas doesn't mean that contrary to the plain text. Apart from that, the whole explanation regarding premotion seems highly contrived.

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  51. @RS

    Aquinas saw final causality as the actualizing force of all other causes. This includes efficient causality. The force to move comes after the final cause to move in that direction, and the efficient cause is nothing more than an expression of the final cause. Modern mechanistic causation of the Banezian variety places efficiency first and finality second, which means that final causes of themselves cannot be efficacious. Aquinas held that final causes were always efficacious unless other final causes were interrupting them. The confusion over this is a result of the transition from ancient to modern metaphysics, which explains why Aquinas's medieval and modern commentators were so unbelievably bad at understanding him.

    Please give references for this assertion. The traditional meaning of "cause of causes" is that the final cause is that toward which the efficient cause is acting as Dr. Feser notes frequently. The efficient cause in turn educes form out of matter in material things. So it is clear why it is the cause of causes because it is the reason for the agent educing form out of matter. To say, however, that the efficient cause is nothing more than an expression of the final cause is to conflate the two. The cake does not move me to eat beyond an attraction to it as a sensible good; my locomotive power is what actually moves me to eat the cake. But the apprehension and subsequent desire for the cake acting as an end started the process. Here the final cause is first, but not conflated with the efficient cause. Regardless, you can't do away with agency. If the final cause is the agent in some cases then it is not an agent under the ratio of a final cause, but of an efficient cause. Otherwise, it seems to me you are just doing away with efficient causality altogether.

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  52. God's active power is always active. Any change in creatures would not entail a change in God (i.e., a beginning of action). I am confident the Dominicans would not make such a basic mistake with respect to physical premotion, and I am unsure why the Thomist account of physical premotion would entail a change in God in this respect.

    I was merely explaining why Aquinas concluded that causes did not change. I don't know what positions the Banezians took on this matter, and it isn't relevant to my argument.

    This means that "acting" is only a notional existent in the cause, rather than something ontological. In the case of God, knowledge, power, goodness, etc. are one with His essence (i.e., being) for St. Thomas. There is no distinction in God between notional and ontological existence.

    This would entail that whatever we thought about God was true. A notional existent is a being of reason--something that exists only in our own minds.

    Lonergan says that "premotion" is the removal of an impediment like that temporally prior to physical motion that accounts for a change at a particular time. But with respect to God, I don't see why this is to the point with respect to the will (vs. in the case of changes in material beings with respect to the celestial hierarchy).

    The will's main impediment is the diversity of equally desirable final causes before it, which paralyze it with indecision. This is the cause of free will. A will-act is when the will (let it be A) is drawn toward some end B that is set before it. But A will only actualize B because this situation has been set up in advance (premotion) by a third entity, C. And C is the intellect, which places the most desirable objects before the will. Now, the intellect itself is moved by determinate objects in the exterior world. But the presence of those objects was brought about by another configuration. And so on.

    All of this takes place via final causality. It's a mere pursuing of ends.

    Further, St. Thomas said such cosmological theories (of Aristotle) were revisable given new evidence, so it is hard to see how the celestial hierarchy is a crucial factor in God's movement of the will.

    I never even mentioned the spheres, so I'm not sure why you're bringing them up. They aren't relevant to my argument.

    As in the cooking example, B can be moved toward A. But in all cases A is an instrument of C, since it is C that "applies" A (i.e. allows A to change B). Are you saying that a premotion C applies A to B as an instrument, where A is God and B is the will? If so that is highly problematic because it subordinates God to the premotion.

    A is the will and B is the determinate end. C is the intellect. God is not directly involved in any of this, except insofar as his Providence directs all things to their ends.

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  53. The explanation of C as a final cause is odd to say the least because every example given for C is an instance of efficient causality (e.g., change of position is a motion requiring an efficient cause directing the change in location from one place to another, the latter place being the proximate final cause).

    But there has never been and will never be a situation in which an efficient cause comes about before an end, and that's exactly what your account above presupposes. The "efficient cause" you're describing is nothing more than another final cause: something directed toward an end result, which drives the efficient cause. If a cat finds catnip and is drawn to eat it, the cause of his movement is the catnip. His body's efficient motion is actualized by that end. The Banezian account gets it exactly backwards, in true mechanistic fashion.

    In the case of the iceberg and the sun, what would happen if the sun moved to melt the iceberg? Let's say there was a Greek god who took an interest in seeing this iceberg melt. His final cause (interest in seeing the iceberg melt) determines his efficient motion toward that end. When he moves the sun, the sun moves because it has been given a final cause in that direction, like when I give a rock a final cause by throwing it. Aristotle's Unmoved Mover moved the world through final causality (see Dudley's Aristotle's Concept of Chance, page 273), in that each entity, by seeking him as the highest good, was drawn to this or that teleological end. This, in turn, actualized the motion of all entities. Aquinas's First Way is just a rehash of this argument, basically. God directs the world because he is the ultimate explanation of why final causes tend entities in one direction or another. He most definitely does not exercise efficient control in the Banezian fashion.

    Regardless of Lonergan's exegesis, this statement flatly contradicts St. Thomas's text because he explicitly says, following Scripture, that God can cause one to will this or that.

    That isn't an argument. I've just explained how Aquinas saw God's movement of the world. Merely reasserting Banezian efficient-cause-first mechanism isn't going to prove anything.

    Apart from that, the whole explanation regarding premotion seems highly contrived.

    And this is even less of an argument.

    To say, however, that the efficient cause is nothing more than an expression of the final cause is to conflate the two. The cake does not move me to eat beyond an attraction to it as a sensible good; my locomotive power is what actually moves me to eat the cake.

    Your locomotive power is determined. The final cause is what actualizes your locomotive power in this or that direction. Again, you've got it backwards, and your reading is totally unfaithful to the Unmoved Mover argument.

    Otherwise, it seems to me you are just doing away with efficient causality altogether.

    I'm merely explaining it as Aquinas and Aristotle saw it. Modern mechanistic conceptions like Banez's, obviously, favor the efficient cause as a determining force; but this has nothing to do with the First Way.

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  54. Codg:

    1) So you're a Thomist, after all! The issue of multiplicity is uncontroversial, though, obviously its elucidation is not. Again, have you read ST I, QQ. 12 and 13? Your claim here is simply Thomas' point. As others have noted, you go on and on about how we know nothing (literally!) about God, but then buttress that thesis with cataphatic claims like, oh, "only God is metaphysically simple".

    God’s metaphysical simplicity is not cataphatic at all. It is apophatic. It is a negation of composition as applicable to God. However, we have no idea what this actually could possibly mean, because all our thoughts and language are saturated by composition and distinction. That means what anything that comes to mind about God is necessarily to be negated as infinitely inadequate and deficient.

    Speaking of retorsion and linguistic confusion, you are wrong that language only breaks down in theology. For instance, I challenge you, or anyone, to given an entirely verbal account of general relativity and quantum mechanics without reaching the same kind of "darkness of mind."

    Haven’t you ever read any laymen texts on these subjects? There is no mathematics, and yet the topics are often explained very well.

    Likewise, have you not read the Platonic dialogues, in which Socrates repeatedly draws his interlocutors into aporia and obscurity?

    Really? Socratic dialogues end in the complete absence of mental activity whatsoever?

    Even Wittgenstein realized that the world itself is mystical. Indeed, that's just the point: everything can be mystical "to some extent" because the Source of everything is infinitely mystical––beyond any extent or measure.

    The difference is that our knowledge about the world is just incomplete. There is lots that we know about the world, and there is lots that we do not know about the world. So, I can say with full knowledge that I am typing on the computer at this moment, without any need to negate or reject that knowledge are fundamentally deficient. Sure, it is incomplete, but that is not the same as its being self-effacing. With theology, all cataphatic affirmations about God must necessarily be immediately negated, because based on what we know God is not, we cannot know what God is. God is not anything that could be present to the human thought or language, for the reasons I’ve already explained.

    Your argument, with its fixation on God's infinity––and I again must ask if you've carefully read ST I QQ. 7 and 8––, boils down to something like this: because a curve is asymptotic to an axis, we can't plot the curve. God's infinity relates to His being the first principle, and simply means there is no limit to what (or how many things) can depend on His power––"[all] things flow forth infinitely from the first principle" (ST I q. 7, a. 1, co.).

    I’ve heard that analogy before. To me, it fails, because you can see both the axis and the curve, and thus have a sense of the distance between the curve and the axis. Now, imagine that the axis is infinitely far away, and try to talk about proximity of the curve. That’s theology.

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  55. The limit at which God transcends is the cleft between essence and existence. That is a cleft to which all creation is subject, and to deny such a cleft in God is just to call Him transcendent. Notice how, once more, only explicitly this time ("a domesticated, univocal and onto-theological deity"), your desire for a univocal account of God disqualifies any analogical account in principle. That's a (Kantian) cognitive bias on your part, not actually an argument.

    First, I do have an argument for my rejection of analogy. It is not just a “cognitive bias”. Do you agree that if X is similar to Y, then X and Y must share a partial identity and a partial difference? In other words, there is a difference between X and Y being identical, i.e. they share everything in common, and X and Y being different, i.e. they share nothing in common, and that mean position between the two is partial identity and partial difference. If you accept this account, then analogy becomes impossible, because it would then be possible to focus upon the partial identity as a univocal core meaning, which would prove univocity as a key component of analogy. If you reject this account, then analogy becomes impossible, because you have drained “analogy” of any possible meaning by eliminating its core feature.

    Second, you and I agree that the core of God’s transcendence is his metaphysical simplicity. It is because our minds are saturated with distinctions and multiplicity at all times that we cannot conceive of that which is beyond distinction and multiplicity, which a metaphysically simple “being” would have to be. Given that fact, no matter what we have in mind when we think about God, it will have distinctions and multiplicity, it follows that nothing we have in mind when we think of God is actually about God, but rather is about a cognitive idol with distinctions that our minds cannot help but think.

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  56. @Charles: "This elicits a will (simple velle) to see God, but this desire remains otiose (a velleity) without the offer of the beatific vision and the means to attain it, for an analysis of our intellectual powers reveals our incapacity to attain it by natural means. DeLubac and co. want to deny that our desire for God is conditional and inefficacious."

    ST I.12.1: "If then the intellect of a rational creature could not reach to the first cause of things, a desire of nature would be left empty. Whence it must unconditionally be conceded that the blessed see the essence of God." Thomas speaks here of a desire of nature that is ordered towards the beatific vision. Where does the claim that this desire is otiose without grace come in?

    I take it de Lubac agrees with the elicited desire bit, but perhaps, like myself, doesn't understand what this otiose desire is about? Is it just that it is the kind of desire that no one thinks can be naturally fulfilled, so that in the natural order it has no practical consequences? Whereas de Lubac thinks...?

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  57. @dguller: "Our thought and language is rooted in distinction." - ...and only in distinction?? (I think not.) - "Any thought or word is distinct from other thoughts and words, for example, according to some common standard of comparison." - Okay... - "It follows that anything that is beyond all distinction cannot be contained within thought and language." - Okay... - "Since God is metaphysically simple, he is beyond all dichotomies, distinctions and differentiations, including affirmation and negation, identity and difference, transcendence and immanence, and so on." - How does that follow?? (Rank sophistry, indeed!) Since God is metaphysically simple, he is NOT beyond all dichotomies, distinctions, etc.! - "But if that is the case..." - it's obviously not! - therefore, the rest of your argument doesn't follow.

    "Does that count as an explanation?" - Sure, but the point was that when I challenged you on a particular point, all you gave me was a very weak appeal to authority. I'm happy to wait and see what you do this time.

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  58. Rank:

    It's not an empirical observation--it's a logical necessity. A contingent entity is one which relies on something outside of itself. If you explained one contingent entity in terms of another, you would then have to explain that contingent entity. And so on, forever, without any single contingent entity providing that on which all others rely. This means that the first contingent entity has not been explained and thus cannot exist.

    You have skipped to the end of the argument, and we are merely discussing the first premise. It is an empirical observation that things change, and that other things make them change, and we call these changing things contingent. However, all we experience are changeable things changing one another, and so that has to be the main premise, and not your alternative, which simply begs the question, i.e. a contingent entity is an entity that is caused to exist either by a contingent entity or a necessary entity.

    True enough. But transcendentals aren't ever subsistent, so it doesn't make that much of a difference. Esse doesn't exist: it's a component in a substance that exists, which has the category of relation to those things on which it relies. Technically, my syllogism would be tighter if I'd used the word "beings" instead of esse, to signify ens--but it's not that big of a deal.

    Of course, transcendentals are subsistent. They are all coextensive with esse ipsum subsistens, after all. But that’s a minor point.

    If X takes on category 9 when Y takes on category 10, then X is no longer X and has become some entity X2. Both X and Y have changed. However, if X cannot break Y without becoming X2, then it follows that X cannot change Y.

    But you are assuming that X and X2 are different entities rather than the same entity in a different mode of being. I mean, I am different from one moment from the next, but it does not follow that there is a radical discontinuity that severs my self-identity over time and change. After all, there is a difference between substantial change and accidental change. Perhaps the actualization of category 9 in X when it causes Y to occur is an accidental change?

    Aristotle and Aquinas both take 3 out of necessity. This means that X does not take on category 9 when it changes, which means that X is not an ontological cause but only a logical one.

    But causality is akin to giving, because the cause gives something to the effect. If X cannot change, then X cannot give anything to Y, which compromises all causality. After all, X-before-giving is different from X-after-giving, and that is indicative of some kind of change.

    Think of it this way. Categories 9 and 10 are a notional division of a singular change that occurs in Y, and 9 is applied to X logically but not really. Hence, to say "X caused Y" is to say "Y changed" and then to apply category 9 mentally to X. Category 9 is not really distinct from category 10, which appears in Y. All discussions of causality are thus a posteriori, even in the most basic cases.

    But if category 9 is only logical and not real, then it is mainly rooted in the mind and not reality. And if that is true, then all we really have are effects happening without real causes at all. Causality then would be a kind of illusion.

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  59. "I generally ignore your short and snotty quips, but I'm going to use this one to explain something to Sobieski and whoever else is reading this."

    O esteemed rank sophist, allow me to just remark that in fact you did not use my short and snotty quip for any such purpose. And the unrelated explanation you did give was seriously deficient, it seems to me, in that you ignored the fact that efficient, formal, and final causes in fact often coincide (see Aristotle's Physics, II.7).

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  60. DavidM:

    "Our thought and language is rooted in distinction." - ...and only in distinction?? (I think not.) -

    I never said it was only rooted in distinction. However, it is a necessary condition of human thought that it be saturated by distinction. One thought is distinct from another by virtue of being a different thought, one thought is distinct from another by virtue of happening earlier in time, and so on. If we could have thoughts without distinction, then we would be metaphysically simple ourselves, which is impossible, because only one being can be metaphysically simple, and that being must be God.

    "Since God is metaphysically simple, he is beyond all dichotomies, distinctions and differentiations, including affirmation and negation, identity and difference, transcendence and immanence, and so on." - How does that follow?? (Rank sophistry, indeed!) Since God is metaphysically simple, he is NOT beyond all dichotomies, distinctions, etc.!

    First, metaphysical simplicity is simply the negation of composition. Composition is having parts, and to have parts is to have distinctions between the different parts. Thus, to lack composition means to lack parts, which means to lack distinctions.

    Second, any differentiation or distinction between X and Y presupposes some common standard of comparison, or genus. However, since God cannot be subsumed under a genus, it follows that there can be no common standard of comparison between God and creation, making any distinction and differentiation impossible. As such, God transcends all distinctions, including the distinction between affirmation and negation, identity and difference, immanence and transcendence, being and non-being, and so on. As Eckhart says, God is esse indistinctum.

    "Does that count as an explanation?" - Sure, but the point was that when I challenged you on a particular point, all you gave me was a very weak appeal to authority. I'm happy to wait and see what you do this time.

    Good grief.

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  61. dguller

    Do you agree that if X is similar to Y, then X and Y must share a partial identity and a partial difference?

    No, I don’t agree. And I didn’t agree more than 800 combox posts ago.

    You’ve been carrying on for Heaven knows how long as if no one has ever presented you with an account of similarity that didn’t rely on partial identity and partial difference.

    Well, again more than 800 combox posts ago, I was explicit in saying that there are things (real), and there are thoughts (logical), and that it’s the error of the idealist to confuse the two; moreover I explicitly explained that similarity-in-difference was a real difference, but a logical identity. Not a real identity. And certainly not a partial real identity.

    (For completeness: there is also univocal sameness in real and logical identity, difference where you have neither real nor formal identity, but also real identity with formal difference – as when seeing the Morning Star and Evening Star. It is this last that is actually your formula for “X is similar to Y,” and it is by stopping here and not consider logical identity w/ real difference that you beg the question against analogy as Codg and others have repeatedly told you.)

    When you say “X is similar to Y,” analogates X and Y are real whole things, but the logically identical concept you judge common to both needn’t have extramental reality, and may have no existence outside your own thoughts. At most I would say it exists really in only one. It depends on how much abstracting you have to do to make the identity (perhaps the mental equivalent of squinting hard at a Rorschach blot). How could it be otherwise?

    If the partial identity and partial difference you insist is the basis of analogy were real, then you would not be comparing two things at all, but would have at least three. Consider two apparently whole analogates X and Y where your claimed partial identity is A. If the partial identity is real, and not merely logical, then you really have A+X’ (which you called X) and A+Y’ (and this you called Y).

    So once more because I’m a masochist: Your argument confounds conceptual identity with real identity.

    And you insisting that X is similar to Y iff X and Y share a partial identity reveals the idealism of which I accused you so many posts ago (recently Codg described it far better as a Kantian cognitive bias – it’s less pejorative!) Whether or not you’re willing to cop a plea to idealism, you must see that you cannot carry on pretending only your account of similarity has been mooted for consideration, or that it’s even an account many moderate realists would endorse.

    Of course, in this combox it only matters whether Thomas would endorse it – I’ve never seen anything from you to convince me he would.

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  62. Oh, and like most everyone else, I would also love to see Dr Feser address dguller's argument in a (series of) post(s).

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  63. @dguller: "it is a necessary condition of human thought that it be saturated by distinction." - Is it really? Why is that? What does that even mean: 'saturated by distinction'? Is this just you using jargon to disguise question-begging? Are you suggesting that there is another (non-human) kind of thought which is 'unsaturated'? (Like the thought, "I don't know anything!"?)

    "One thought is distinct from another by virtue of being a different thought, one thought is distinct from another by virtue of happening earlier in time, and so on." - Sure, and one thought is also identical to another in virtue of expressing the same content, one thought encompasses several others in virtue of synthesizing their content, one thought is unified to another in virtue of entailing it, and so on.

    "If we could have thoughts without distinction," - meaning? - "then we would be metaphysically simple ourselves," - and as it turns out, in a restricted sense, we *are* metaphysically simple (that's the bit about our immaterial intellects)! - "which is [NOT] impossible, because [NOT] only one being can be metaphysically simple..."

    "First, metaphysical simplicity is simply the negation of composition." - Vague, but sure. - "Composition is having parts," - Okay, but different kinds of composition entail different kinds of parts... - "and to have parts is to have distinctions between the different parts." - More precisely: Insofar as sth has parts, those parts must be distinguishable (in accordance with the mode proper to parts of that kind). - "Thus, to lack composition [of a certain kind] means to lack parts [of the corresponding kind], which means to lack distinctions [of a particular sort]."

    "Second, any differentiation or distinction between X and Y presupposes some common standard of comparison, or genus." - 'Genus' = 'standard of comparison'? - "However, since God cannot be subsumed under a genus, it follows that there can be no common standard of comparison between God and creation, making any distinction and differentiation impossible." - DOH! If you're right, then you've clearly just established a distinction between God and creation! IOW: if you're right, then you're wrong. You may be proud of this, maybe absurdity is your thing. But why should it convince anyone else?

    "Good grief." - Good grief, huh? Did I say something to grieve you? Surely what I said was simply true? Which could well grieve you...

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  64. @RS

    I was merely explaining why Aquinas concluded that causes did not change. I don't know what positions the Banezians took on this matter, and it isn't relevant to my argument.

    It is relevant to the article you cited because it seems to be part of Lonergan's argument that acting in the agent entails a becoming (a beginning of the act). But that is not applicable to God's power because His power is always in act (fully actualized) from all eternity. So the notion that His efficiency as an agent entails a beginning and end with respect to time-bound effects is false. But we can pass this over.

    A notional existent is a being of reason--something that exists only in our minds.

    You said "acting" has only a notional existence in the agent. As applied to God, I said there is no distinction between notional existence (knowledge) and being. So God's knowledge of an act is its very being as St. Thomas explicitly states. With respect to human beings, sure there are beings of reason that do not entail beings in reality, but to hold that of God is to anthropomorphize Him.

    The will's main impediment is the diversity of equally desirable final causes before it... This is the cause of free will.

    I would qualify this by saying that particular goods are not the cause of free will in the sense of its nature as free since it is God who makes the will a cause not determined to any particular good. When a set of finite goods or apparent goods is set before it, it is indeterminate to any particular one, but then elects a particular good as presented by the intellect.

    I never even mentioned the spheres...

    Part of Lonergan's argument for action and premotion entails Aristotle's celestial hierarchy. So you did make that part of your argument when you cited his entire article as making your case. That is why you should have just presented the kernel of his article relevant to your argument instead of first throwing the entire thing at me without citation or explanation.

    God is not directly involved in any of this...

    So your point is that God conserves A, B, and C, but His agency does not extend to them beyond that? St. Thomas says the opposite because each act is reducible to Him. As stated above, God's knowledge of particular acts is their being.

    But there has never been and will never be a situation in which an efficient cause comes about before an end, and that's exactly what your account above presupposes.

    That may be so absolutely speaking, but that does not eliminate God as first efficient cause in the order of efficient causes. It doesn't eliminate the distinction between the four causes either. Even if God is first as a final cause absolutely speaking, it doesn't eliminate the fact that in the order of efficiency He is also first. Efficiency is not reduced to finality in the order of efficiency. Rather, the order of efficiency would be subordinated to the order of finality. But He is first in both orders for St. Thomas; He is the Alpha and the Omega. Without that distinction, I can't see how you are not doing away with efficient causality altogether (and I suppose formal and material causality as well).

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  65. continued...

    Nevertheless, I say the will's action to move is ultimately reducible to God as first efficient cause. You call this mechanism. But I think the problem is that you are lessening God by conceiving of Him as an efficient cause like any other created cause with respect to the will. As such, he can only move it extrinsically and with violence and necessity. So it is actually you who are conceiving of God in mechanistic terms. Understandably you react negatively and as an alternative say God only operates by means of finality. But St. Thomas says that as creator and sustainer, God can move the will in accord with its nature (i.e., naturally and without violence or necessity). In mechanism, everything is executed from without. That is not St. Thomas's or the Thomist position with respect to God's efficiency. You can read final causality into all of St. Thomas's statements, but to me that *is* highly contrived. St. Thomas explicitly says, for example, that the second way is about *efficient* causality. On your reading, you have to assert that it is really about final causality, which does violence to the text.

    Moving is caused by an agent reducing a potency (matter) to act (form). The agent in turn is moved by an end, but the end does not eliminate or give the entire account of the situation ontologically speaking or otherwise. If you want to assert otherwise, then present a text in Aristotle or Aquinas.

    Aristotle's Unmoved Mover moved the world through final causality.

    I agree that it moves by means of final causality because the outer sphere was thought to be animated (i.e., it was ensouled and its desire of the Unmoved Mover resulted it in its everlasting circular motion as the best means of imitation). But St. Thomas says "many do not admit" that the outer sphere is animated and that the Unmoved Mover could move the outer sphere directly. (SCG 1.13) There is a lot of debate among Aristotelians with respect to the celestial spheres, and I think it is further debatable that St. Thomas slavishly followed Aristotle's speculation on this point.

    That is not an argument. I've just explained how Aquinas saw God's movement of the world.

    Uh, yes it is. An explanation is not true without evidence of you which you've presented little. To assert so is the genetic fallacy. We are arguing what St. Thomas held because you claim your interpretation is his view against a greater part of the Thomist tradition (Dominican or otherwise), which you claim is a "train wreck." I am saying you are in error and am asking you to cite your sources and prove your point. St. Thomas explicitly says God moves and determines the will to "this or that" particular good, but you deny this. You said "God is not directly involved in any of this [i.e., willing particular goods]." So far from proving your point, you flatly contradict him.

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  66. dguller: How do you think human thought begins? If it is not rooted *only* in distinction, what else is it rooted in? If it begins with some thought of the form: "X is distinct from Y," how is this possible without some prior intuition (of X in itself and Y in itself) which is *not* 'saturated by distinction'? Do want to insist that X be exhaustively defined as "that which is distinct from Y" and Y as "that which is distinct from X"? That implausible option appears to be the only one open to you. Perhaps you believe that distinctions liquidate intuitions? - but that is nonsense.

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  67. Jack:

    When you say “X is similar to Y,” analogates X and Y are real whole things, but the logically identical concept you judge common to both needn’t have extramental reality, and may have no existence outside your own thoughts.

    But there must be some correspondence between our thoughts and the reality of X and Y for the identity to be true of X and Y. Otherwise, one is just engaging in navel-gazing idealism. In other words, you are just reflecting upon your own mind, independent of X and Y altogether, which tells you something about you, but nothing about X and Y, which are supposed to have this analogous relationship.

    At most I would say it exists really in only one. It depends on how much abstracting you have to do to make the identity (perhaps the mental equivalent of squinting hard at a Rorschach blot). How could it be otherwise?

    I don’t even know what this means. The concept C that you are basing the identity relationship really exists in only X, but does not really exist in Y? But if C is only in X, but not in Y, then how can you have any identity at all? In other words, you have X is C, but Y is not-C, and then are trying to use C to ground the identity component of the similarity relationship. How does that work?

    If the partial identity and partial difference you insist is the basis of analogy were real, then you would not be comparing two things at all, but would have at least three. Consider two apparently whole analogates X and Y where your claimed partial identity is A. If the partial identity is real, and not merely logical, then you really have A+X’ (which you called X) and A+Y’ (and this you called Y).

    How does that follow? Part of what it means for X to be X is to be A, and part of what it means for Y to be Y is to be A. One can then abstract A from X and Y and intellectually identify the A in X as identical to the A in Y, and that is the basis of the common connection between X and Y.

    And you insisting that X is similar to Y iff X and Y share a partial identity reveals the idealism of which I accused you so many posts ago (recently Codg described it far better as a Kantian cognitive bias – it’s less pejorative!) Whether or not you’re willing to cop a plea to idealism, you must see that you cannot carry on pretending only your account of similarity has been mooted for consideration, or that it’s even an account many moderate realists would endorse.

    How am I the idealist when you are the one saying that the identity between analogates is only in our minds and not in reality?

    Of course, in this combox it only matters whether Thomas would endorse it – I’ve never seen anything from you to convince me he would.

    I doubt that Aquinas would endorse it, but the question is whether his doctrines necessarily imply it. I think that they do logically imply it, and so whether he would actually accept that conclusion is irrelevant.

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  68. DavidM:

    "it is a necessary condition of human thought that it be saturated by distinction." - Is it really? Why is that? What does that even mean: 'saturated by distinction'? Is this just you using jargon to disguise question-begging? Are you suggesting that there is another (non-human) kind of thought which is 'unsaturated'? (Like the thought, "I don't know anything!"?)

    I am saying that all our thoughts involve distinction of some kind: subject-object, true-false, appearance-reality, identity-difference, affirmation-negation, and so on. For any thought is composed of different elements of these various distinctions. That is a byproduct of being a composite entity. Only God has no distinctions to speak of by virtue of his metaphysical simplicity.

    "One thought is distinct from another by virtue of being a different thought, one thought is distinct from another by virtue of happening earlier in time, and so on." - Sure, and one thought is also identical to another in virtue of expressing the same content, one thought encompasses several others in virtue of synthesizing their content, one thought is unified to another in virtue of entailing it, and so on.

    Exactly. Composition, distinction, division, duality. Every thought is situated within them.

    "If we could have thoughts without distinction," - meaning? - "then we would be metaphysically simple ourselves," - and as it turns out, in a restricted sense, we *are* metaphysically simple (that's the bit about our immaterial intellects)! - "which is [NOT] impossible, because [NOT] only one being can be metaphysically simple..."

    Really? How exactly is our immaterial intellect a metaphysical simple entity? It is necessarily a composite of essence-esse, and thus cannot be metaphysically simple at all. Everything other than God is composite, including an immaterial intellect.

    More precisely: Insofar as sth has parts, those parts must be distinguishable (in accordance with the mode proper to parts of that kind). - "Thus, to lack composition [of a certain kind] means to lack parts [of the corresponding kind], which means to lack distinctions [of a particular sort]."

    Sure. What kind of distinctions does a metaphysically simple being have?

    "Second, any differentiation or distinction between X and Y presupposes some common standard of comparison, or genus." - 'Genus' = 'standard of comparison'?

    Yup. A genus is universal conceptual category that is a standard of comparison. A genus plus a difference is what separates out species and individuals.

    - "However, since God cannot be subsumed under a genus, it follows that there can be no common standard of comparison between God and creation, making any distinction and differentiation impossible." - DOH! If you're right, then you've clearly just established a distinction between God and creation! IOW: if you're right, then you're wrong. You may be proud of this, maybe absurdity is your thing. But why should it convince anyone else?

    God is distinct from creatures in that he is indistinct at all. As Turner writes:

    “A creature is, as [Eckhart] puts it, a unum distinctum, distinct from another by means of its difference in respect of some background sameness which they share, whereas God is an unum indistinctum, that is to say, is distinct from any creature whatsoever in this, that, unlike any creature, God is not distinct in kind from anything created at all – for there is no background against which a distinction of kind can be set. Therefore, God is distinct because God alone is not distinct” (Ibid., pp. 163-4).

    "Good grief." - Good grief, huh? Did I say something to grieve you? Surely what I said was simply true? Which could well grieve you...

    Good grief.

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  69. DavidM:

    dguller: How do you think human thought begins?

    I don’t know.

    If it is not rooted *only* in distinction, what else is it rooted in?

    Sensory experience? Abstract intellectual thought? Imagination?

    If it begins with some thought of the form: "X is distinct from Y," how is this possible without some prior intuition (of X in itself and Y in itself) which is *not* 'saturated by distinction'?

    There is no such thought for a human being. For God, that would be fine, because his ideas are identical to his intellect, which is identical to his essence, which is identical to his esse. That doesn’t really work for composite beings, such as ourselves, though.

    Do want to insist that X be exhaustively defined as "that which is distinct from Y" and Y as "that which is distinct from X"? That implausible option appears to be the only one open to you. Perhaps you believe that distinctions liquidate intuitions? - but that is nonsense.

    It don’t think that is “exhaustively defined”, but it is certainly part of the definition of X that it be distinct from Y. Otherwise, X would just be Y, and vice versa.

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  70. @dguller: "Only God has no distinctions to speak of by virtue of his metaphysical simplicity." - What do you mean he 'has no distinctions'? Like he can't distinguish between you and me? Or between a duck and the number 3? How do you know this??

    Regarding our composition from essence and esse, the resulting 'composite' is just an essence that actually exists. So long as the essence in question is immaterial, then when it exists it is simple and sui generis.

    Distinctions of a metaphysically simple being: a metaphysically simple being is being rather than non-being, undivided rather than divided, one rather than many, creator rather than creature, cause rather than caused, etc.

    "A genus is universal conceptual category that is a standard of comparison." - So what constitutes a 'universal conceptual category that is a standard of comparison'? How do you know when you've actually got one of these thingies? And how do you know what you are and are not allowed to do with it?

    "God is distinct from creatures in that he is indistinct at all. As Turner writes..." - So finally, more repetition of original thesis and appeal to authority? Good grief. You're just ignoring the absurdity that I clearly pointed out.

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  71. dguller,

    You have skipped to the end of the argument, and we are merely discussing the first premise. It is an empirical observation that things change, and that other things make them change, and we call these changing things contingent.

    A contingent being is one that can fail to exist, and a contingent being that can fail to exist has to be grounded in another--otherwise it wouldn't exist at all. Pretty simple. Appealing to an infinite number of contingent beings is not an argument.

    Of course, transcendentals are subsistent. They are all coextensive with esse ipsum subsistens, after all. But that’s a minor point.

    ... wha? What does that even mean? There can't be subsistent transcendentals. God is God, not a transcendental.

    But you are assuming that X and X2 are different entities rather than the same entity in a different mode of being. [...] After all, there is a difference between substantial change and accidental change. Perhaps the actualization of category 9 in X when it causes Y to occur is an accidental change?


    That doesn't solve the problem. Also, this isn't my argument--it's Lonergan's, Aristotle's and Aquinas's.

    X2 must be different from X. If X takes on an accident when it causes something, then it isn't X anymore. Both X and X2 can be modes of an entity-in-time H, but that doesn't solve the problem of X being unable to cause Y. If X is a state at time t1 and X2 is a state at time t2 in the existence of H, then it follows that H can cause Y iff it is X2, and therefore only at t2. H cannot cause Y at t1, but must be changed to X2 at t2 before it can cause Y. What does this mean? Unless H's transformation into X2 is uncaused (a contradiction), then it must be caused by another. But then that cause will have to take on category 9, and the X/X2 t1/t2 problem arises again. And this goes all the way back to the Unmoved Mover, who will also have to take on category 9 in order to change anything. It's not enough merely to say that the Unmoved Mover is "fully actual", blah blah blah. Unless it's possible to explain exactly how he can cause anything without himself changing, we're left with a flat contradiction. And, if causes necessarily change when they cause, there's no way to avoid that contradiction.

    But causality is akin to giving, because the cause gives something to the effect. If X cannot change, then X cannot give anything to Y, which compromises all causality. After all, X-before-giving is different from X-after-giving, and that is indicative of some kind of change.

    From Lonergan, paraphrasing Aquinas:

    "a terrestrial body acts through contact and cannot touch without being touched; but this does not prove that the cause as cause undergoes change but only that the terrestrial body as cause does so."

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  72. His basis for this argument is Aquinas's Commentary on the Physics, book 3, lecture 4. A relevant passage:

    "Then he shows why it happens that a mover is moved. For it does not happen precisely because it is a mover but because it is such by touching; because to move is to act in order to cause something to be moved and what is so acted upon by the mover is moved. But whatever acts does so by touching, for bodies act by touching; hence it follows that what acts is at the same time acted upon, because that which touches is acted upon. However, this must be understood of those cases where there is mutual touching; namely, when the thing touching is also touched, as happens in things which are material, where both of the things are acted upon when they touch one another. But heavenly bodies, because they do not have material like the lower bodies, so act on them that they are not acted upon in return and they touch without being touched as is stated in De Generatione I (l.18)."

    In other words, if X changes when it changes Y, this is not a matter of X changing because it is a cause. It changes because it is material, i.e. in potency in some way to Y. Consequently, this mutual definition is not inherent to causation itself, but only to causation by "touching".

    But if category 9 is only logical and not real, then it is mainly rooted in the mind and not reality. And if that is true, then all we really have are effects happening without real causes at all. Causality then would be a kind of illusion.

    Causality is the event of a change in Y when Y is in a certain relation F with X. I don't see how this is an illusion. Without Y being in F with X, Y would not change. Y changes iff it is in F with X. This does not mean that causality is false--just that it takes place solely in the moved, via a relation to X.

    Sobieski,

    It is relevant to the article you cited because it seems to be part of Lonergan's argument that acting in the agent entails a becoming (a beginning of the act).

    It isn't part of his case. I think you should read Lonergan's article more carefully (you mentioned that you only skimmed it) before jumping to conclusions. Lonergan's argument is that no secondary cause changes qua cause when it causes something. This is relevant to our argument only to the extent that it explains Aquinas's understanding of what it means for a secondary cause to move.

    You said "acting" has only a notional existence in the agent. As applied to God, I said there is no distinction between notional existence (knowledge) and being.

    You don't seem to understand. When we say that God causes something (= participates in category 9), this is a being of reason in our own minds that does not relate to the real world. God's being is wholly unaffected.

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  73. So your point is that God conserves A, B, and C, but His agency does not extend to them beyond that? St. Thomas says the opposite because each act is reducible to Him.

    I said that A, B and C are directed toward their ends by God. For Aquinas, this is just what it means to be an "instrument" and something "applied to act".

    That may be so absolutely speaking, but that does not eliminate God as first efficient cause in the order of efficient causes.

    God is the first efficient cause insofar as he creates all things. But there is no passage in Aquinas in which it is asserted that God is the first efficient cause in the order of change--i.e., that God enacts change by moving entities in the manner of a secondary cause, like the spheres. Perhaps Banez made this statement, but that's neither here nor there. God enacts change insofar as he is that which all final causes seek, and so that which drives them to action.

    Rather, the order of efficiency would be subordinated to the order of finality. But He is first in both orders for St. Thomas; He is the Alpha and the Omega. Without that distinction, I can't see how you are not doing away with efficient causality altogether (and I suppose formal and material causality as well).

    In which passage does Aquinas say that God is the first efficient cause in the other of change? This certainly is not what the First Way means, as we've already discussed. When Aquinas calls God the first mover of change, he means that the motion brought about by final causes is ultimately reducible to God as that which all final causes seek--i.e., that which draws them to motion in the first place. This is different from pushing something to motion, in the mechanistic sense.

    Nevertheless, I say the will's action to move is ultimately reducible to God as first efficient cause. You call this mechanism. But I think the problem is that you are lessening God by conceiving of Him as an efficient cause like any other created cause with respect to the will.

    You are free to believe Banezianism all you want. My point here is to explain what Aquinas actually said.

    St. Thomas explicitly says, for example, that the second way is about *efficient* causality.

    First, the exact meaning of the Second Way has been debated for centuries, since it's so vague. Second, most interpretations take the Second Way to be God's efficient causality of creation--his bringing into existence of creation in the first place. Prof. Feser follows Gilson in interpreting it as the "existential argument", or the argument from essence and existence that Aquinas lays out in On Being and Essence. And this is perfectly in line with what I've said about God: he creates and sustains us (efficient cause) and gives us direction (final cause). He's also our formal cause, as the Fourth Way demonstrates.

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  74. The agent in turn is moved by an end, but the end does not eliminate or give the entire account of the situation ontologically speaking or otherwise.

    I've already presented you with Aristotle's understanding of the Unmoved Mover, which is the same as Aquinas's. What more do you need?

    I agree that it moves by means of final causality because the outer sphere was thought to be animated (i.e., it was ensouled and its desire of the Unmoved Mover resulted it in its everlasting circular motion as the best means of imitation). But St. Thomas says "many do not admit" that the outer sphere is animated and that the Unmoved Mover could move the outer sphere directly. (SCG 1.13) There is a lot of debate among Aristotelians with respect to the celestial spheres, and I think it is further debatable that St. Thomas slavishly followed Aristotle's speculation on this point.

    The furthest sphere is not necessary for the account to work. Neither Aristotle nor Aquinas believed that all efficient motion was reducible to force of the First Moved. If it was, they'd have both been determinists.

    An explanation is not true without evidence of you which you've presented little. To assert so is the genetic fallacy.

    The genetic fallacy is an argument based solely on origin. I haven't made such an argument. I'm merely explaining how the Banezian interpretation of Aquinas is wrong. Did I say that Banezianism was false? I don't think I'm willing to make that claim, in the logical sense. I think it's false to Christianity, certainly, but it would be quite the feat to show it to be logically false. My goal in all of this has been to show that the First Way does not entail Banezian premotion, and I believe I've succeeded.

    St. Thomas explicitly says God moves and determines the will to "this or that" particular good, but you deny this. You said "God is not directly involved in any of this [i.e., willing particular goods]." So far from proving your point, you flatly contradict him.

    God moves the will to this or that good when he provides grace. But even this is a matter of final causality. It's also a matter of final causality when Aquinas says that he moves the wills of kings, etc. Everything is God's instrument in the sense that he is the first cause of motion, by being the goal of every final cause.

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  75. "Sensory experience? Abstract intellectual thought? Imagination?" - So what do these give us?? Just distinctions? Or more than that?

    "There is no such thought for a human being" - What does this MEAN? How do you KNOW this? What are your referring to as 'such a thought'? (You're just begging the question.) What is 'saturation' vs. 'non-saturation'? (Just necessary, inexplicable jargon?)

    "It don’t think that is “exhaustively defined”, but it is certainly part of the definition of X that it be distinct from Y. Otherwise, X would just be Y, and vice versa." - That sounds like nonsense to me. Why should "that which is distinct from the number 3" be part of the definition of 'duck'? In any case, the more important question is still, what is left out? If such 'definition' is not exhaustive, what do you mean by saying that our thought is 'SATURATED by distinction' - which you want to take as implying that it can have no conception whatsoever of a simple being? (Which appears to just be a non sequitur, in any case - so what if it is 'saturated by distinction'? - how does your conclusion follow? - you haven't explained this.)

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  76. dguller wrote (my emphasis added):

    "...you and I agree that the core of God’s transcendence is his metaphysical simplicity. It is because our minds are saturated with distinctions and multiplicity at all times that we cannot conceive of that which is beyond distinction and multiplicity, which a metaphysically simple 'being' would have to be. Given that fact, no matter what we have in mind when we think about God, it will have distinctions and multiplicity, it follows that nothing we have in mind when we think of God is actually about God, but rather is about a cognitive idol with distinctions that our minds cannot help but think."

    This quotation is, I think, the essence, or perhaps a mini-summa, of your fallacies on this issue. Like others, I detect something Sisyphusean in your mystical campaign at this blog. I also note a consistent unwillingness to engage directly with Aquinas’ own words as I have pointed you to them. For these reasons, and constraints on my own time, I will make this my last comment about this matter at this juncture.

    First of all, notice the persistent contradictions in the quotation I gave from you. You assert in one breath that God in Himself is utterly beyond being and thought, yet in the next breath use cataphatic words like “is”, “to be”, “of God”, “about God”, etc. So in the very act of denying any positive knowledge or existence of God, you rely upon positive knowledge of God’s unique act of being. Your claim about God is that we can’t make claims about God. The retorsion problem again.

    Second, you fail to understand what “conceive of” means by confusing with, perhaps, visualize or perfectly define. Doc Feser has addressed this issue before, at the blog and in his books. The fallacy you commit is of this kind: just because any thought we have, or display we make, of pi will terminate on some arbitrary digit, we cannot speak of or know anything at all about pi. Aside from that you once again performatively contradict yourself by adding anything after “we cannot conceive of”. If something is literally inconceivable, it can’t stand in as the subject of an inconceivability claim. You say we cannot conceive of God, yet you invoke the conception of Him as “that which is beyond distinction and multiplicity … [and as] metaphysically simple”. As I showed with your citations of Denys Turner, you admit there is a dialectic between light and dark, but then simply say the darkness is all there is in theology. Remember, even the most obscure mystics claimed that our ignorance was of God, that we ascend to the darkness of God.

    CONT. BELOW

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  77. CONT.

    Third, let me cite what I think is your most elementary and profound confusion: You say “that nothing we have in mind [M] when we think of God [G] is actually about God, but rather is about a cognitive idol [C] with distinctions that our minds cannot help but think." Poppycock. You’re saying that when we think about God, we’re actually thinking about our thoughts about God: that any M of G, M(G), is actually an M of C, M(C). You can’t, however, say M(G) is identical to M(C) because, precisely by insisting upon the infinite difference between G and C, you admit that there is a difference between M(G) and M(C), and thus that they are not identical. Moreover, your syllogism began with M(G), moved onto M(C), and ended with M(~G), so you fallaciously excluded the middle term. You should have said that M(G v C)  M(~G) & M(C). Yet you can’t even say that, since you deny in principle that there is any such thing as M(G) at all. So, in barest form, you’re saying this: “When I M(G), I mean that M(G) is M(~G).” (Eez, ‘ow you say, le fail?) Your own syllogism proves too much, anyway, since C is actually of G, or C(G), and thus M is in fact M(C(G)), which does not negate the fact that our C is of G. If C can be of C(G), then by extension M(C) is of G.

    Anyway, what I think you’re trying to argue is that, when we think of God, we’re actually just thinking about the other words we use in connection with the word “God”, and so to think of God is never to think of what “God” means. For example, to think about the word “fish” is not to think about fish. But, again, the problem is that we can’t recognize such distinctions if they aren’t real. Conversely, because there is a real distinction between a thing and our thoughts of the thing (as well as between our thoughts about our thoughts of a thing!), we can, manifestly, parse the distinctions. We can recognize when we’re talking about either the word “fish” or a thing that is a fish, but by your logic, our mental occupation M with fish F, or M(F), is actually mentation about our own conception C of fish, M(C), such conceiving which is indexed by the word “fish”. This is why I think your problem is not so much with theology, but with a theory of meaning and intellection as such.

    CONT. BELOW

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  78. DavidM:

    "Only God has no distinctions to speak of by virtue of his metaphysical simplicity." - What do you mean he 'has no distinctions'? Like he can't distinguish between you and me? Or between a duck and the number 3? How do you know this??

    This is why God’s metaphysical simplicity is the source of his transcendence. Our minds unravel and collapse when they try to understand a being whose essence is identical to its existence, which is identical to its intellect, which is identical to its will, which is identical to its goodness, which is identical to its divine ideas, and so on. Any distinction that you think of in God is not actually in God, but rather is a projection of your mind, because God is metaphysically simple and thus devoid of composition and distinction.

    As Feser writes:

    “Talking or conceiving of God, God’s essence, God’s existence, God’s power, God’s goodness, and so forth are really all just different ways of talking or conceiving of one and the very same thing. Though we distinguish between them in thought, there is no distinction at all between them in reality” (Aquinas, p. 127; emphasis mine).

    I hope Feser counts as an authentic source!

    Regarding our composition from essence and esse, the resulting 'composite' is just an essence that actually exists. So long as the essence in question is immaterial, then when it exists it is simple and sui generis.

    First, all essences are immaterial.

    Second, you are correct if you are saying that, given divine simplicity, an essence is identical to a divine idea, which is identical to the divine essence, which is identical to ipsum esse subsistens, which is identical to God himself. And since God himself is simple, the essence in question is also simple, because it is coextensive with God himself by virtue of divine simplicity.

    Third, you would then be coming very close to Eckhart’s doctrine that my ground and God’s ground are identical with respect to the intellect. But that’s a whole other matter.

    Distinctions of a metaphysically simple being: a metaphysically simple being is being rather than non-being, undivided rather than divided, one rather than many, creator rather than creature, cause rather than caused, etc.

    And that is exactly why mystical theologians say that one must transcend affirmations and negations, including Aquinas’ primary source for mystical theology, pseudo-Dionysius.

    "A genus is universal conceptual category that is a standard of comparison." - So what constitutes a 'universal conceptual category that is a standard of comparison'?

    An essence, a form, a universal. For example, “triangularity”, “dogness”, and so on.

    How do you know when you've actually got one of these thingies? And how do you know what you are and are not allowed to do with it?

    Good question. Perhaps a Thomist better familiar with Aquinas’ epistemology can answer this question?

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  79. "God is distinct from creatures in that he is indistinct at all. As Turner writes..." - So finally, more repetition of original thesis and appeal to authority? Good grief.

    Did you miss the argument in the quote?

    You're just ignoring the absurdity that I clearly pointed out.

    I’m not ignoring it. I agree that it is absurd and paradoxical, but that is the point. This is what inevitably happens in all theological discourse. In the course of talking about God, language itself unravels under the strain of absurdity and paradox, amongst other things, into meaninglessness, darkness, unknowing, emptiness, nothingness, and silence.

    "Sensory experience? Abstract intellectual thought? Imagination?" - So what do these give us?? Just distinctions? Or more than that?

    They give us information, and that information contains various distinctions. I mean, do you really think that a dog is just a distinction? It is a real animal, for example, which involves distinctions.

    "There is no such thought for a human being" - What does this MEAN? How do you KNOW this? What are your referring to as 'such a thought'? (You're just begging the question.) What is 'saturation' vs. 'non-saturation'? (Just necessary, inexplicable jargon?)

    It means that any thought that you have about anything at all will involve distinctions. If you disagree, find me a single thought without any distinctions whatsoever. And when I say that there is no such thing as X, it doesn’t help you case to say that in speaking of X, there must be some such thing as X, because I can say that there is no such thing as a square circle, and it would be ludicrous of you to claim that square circles exist by virtue of my denial of their existence, because there must be something that I am denying. And by “saturated”, I just mean that it is always present in thought. I’ll try to be less poetic next time.

    That sounds like nonsense to me. Why should "that which is distinct from the number 3" be part of the definition of 'duck'?

    Because a duck is distinct from the number 3.

    In any case, the more important question is still, what is left out? If such 'definition' is not exhaustive, what do you mean by saying that our thought is 'SATURATED by distinction' - which you want to take as implying that it can have no conception whatsoever of a simple being?

    As I mentioned above, I mean that all of our thoughts involve multiple distinctions that are indicative of the composite nature of thought in general in created minds, and given that God is metaphysically simple and without real distinction or composition, it follows that he is beyond our thought and language. It all our thoughts involve distinctions, then we cannot think about what has no distinctions, except in terms of distinctions, which do not actually represent the object of thought at all.

    Does that help?

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  80. CONT.

    Fourth, let me show you why just engaging Aquinas would have been easier: he explicitly addresses your argument. Notice in the following how eerily (or depressingly) familiar these centuries-old objections sound.

    First I cite ST I, 12, 1, obj. 2, 3, and 4:

    “[2. We cannot know God as He is because] the created intellect knows only existing things. For what falls first under the apprehension of the intellect is being. Now God is not something existing; but He is rather super-existence, as Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv). Therefore God is not intelligible; but above all intellect.

    [3. Moreover,] everything infinite, as such, is unknown. But God is infinite, as was shown above (Question 7, Article 1). Therefore in Himself He is unknown.

    “4. Further, there must be some proportion between the knower and the known, since the known is the perfection of the knower. But no proportion exists between the created intellect and God; for there is an infinite distance between them. Therefore the created intellect cannot see the essence of God. …

    “Reply to Objection 2. The infinity of matter not made perfect by form, is unknown in itself, because all knowledge comes by the form; whereas the infinity of the form not limited by matter, is in itself supremely known [e.g. pure mathematical equations or values like pi]. God is Infinite in this way, and not in the first way: as appears from what was said above (Question 7, Article 1).

    “Reply to Objection 3. God is not said to be not existing as if He did not exist at all, but because He exists above all that exists; inasmuch as He is His own existence. Hence it does not follow that He cannot be known at all, but that He exceeds every kind of knowledge; which means that He is not comprehended.

    [In article 7 of this same question, Aquinas explains “that what is comprehended is perfectly known; and that is perfectly known which is known so far as it can be known.” Please read the rest of that article for more clarity.]

    “Reply to Objection 4. Proportion is twofold. In one sense it means a certain relation of one quantity to another … [while in] another sense every relation of one thing to another is called proportion. And in this sense there can be a proportion of the creature to God, inasmuch as it is related to Him as the effect of its cause, and as potentiality to its act; and in this way the created intellect can be proportioned to know God.

    CONT. BELOW

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  81. CONT.

    Now I cite ST I, 13, 12, obj. 1 and 3:
    “It seems that affirmative propositions cannot be formed about God. For Dionysius says (Coel. Hier. ii) that ‘negations about [!] God are true; but affirmations are vague.’ ... Further, every intellect is false which understands a thing otherwise than as it is. But God has existence without any composition as shown above (Question 3, Article 7). Therefore since every affirmative intellect understands something as compound, it follows that a true affirmative proposition about God cannot be made.

    “I answer that, True affirmative propositions can be formed about God. To prove this we must know that in every true affirmative proposition the predicate and the subject signify in some way the same thing in reality, and different things in idea. … For it is manifest that "man" and "white" are the same in subject [i.e. the white male person in question], and different in idea; for the idea of man is one thing, and that of whiteness is another. … [In such cases] predicate and subject are the same as to "suppositum," but different as to idea." … To this diversity in idea corresponds the plurality of predicate and subject, while the intellect signifies the identity of the thing by the composition itself [i.e. by the affirmative judgment as a unified statement].

    “God, however, as considered in Himself, is altogether one and simple, yet our intellect knows Him by different conceptions because it cannot see Him as He is in Himself. Nevertheless, although it understands Him under different conceptions, it knows that one and the same simple object corresponds to its conceptions. Therefore the plurality of predicate and subject represents the plurality of idea; and the intellect represents the unity by composition.

    “Reply to Objection 1. Dionysius says that the affirmations about God are vague or, according to another translation, "incongruous," inasmuch as no name can be applied to God according to its mode of signification.

    “Reply to Objection 3. This proposition, "The intellect understanding anything otherwise than it is, is false," can be taken in two senses, accordingly as this adverb "otherwise" determines the word "understanding" on the part of the thing understood, or on the part of the one who understands. Taken as referring to the thing understood, the proposition is true, and the meaning is: Any intellect which understands that the thing is otherwise than it [actually] is, is false [viz. wrong about the thing]. But this does not hold in the present case; because our intellect, when forming a proposition about God, does not affirm that He is composite, but that He is simple.

    “… [Even with respect to non-divine things,] the mode of the intellect in understanding is different from the mode of the thing in its essence. Since it is clear that our intellect understands [even] material things below itself in an immaterial manner; not that it understands them to be immaterial things; but its manner of understanding is immaterial. Likewise, [even] when it understands simple things above itself, it understands them according to its own mode, which is in a composite manner; yet not so as to understand them to be composite things. And thus our intellect is not false in forming composition [from plurality] in its ideas concerning God [in His simplicity].

    dguller, it’s one thing to be a gadfly, and you are commendably lucid and civil, but to be contrarian and intellectual provincial (All Hail Denys Turner!) is something else entirely.

    Best,

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  82. This  symbol was supposed to be an entailment arrow.

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  83. @dguller: "If all our thoughts involve distinctions, then we cannot think about what has no distinctions, except in terms of distinctions, which do not actually represent the object of thought at all."

    NO; WRONG - that does not follow, no matter how often you repeat it. If a thought involves a distinction, it does NOT follow that none of the objects involved in that distinction can be simple, or that what the thought represents must be composite. That's like saying a painting of a sheep must be woolly, otherwise it does not actually represent a sheep. Utter nonsense.

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  84. @RS

    God is the first efficient cause insofar as he creates all things. But there is no passage in Aquinas in which it is asserted that God is the first efficient cause in the order of change--i.e., that God enacts change by moving entities in the manner of a secondary cause, like the spheres.

    On your reading, that would be true. But St. Thomas calls God the Unmoved Mover. You say that God is so because He is the Supreme Good, even though that is not in the text of the First Way. As I see it, your account hangs on two points: 1) the outer sphere in any physical argument moves by way of desire for the Unmoved Mover and 2) any efficient cause is reduced to a final cause as that which moves something from potency to act. I don't think either of these things are proven.

    First, the outer sphere moves by way of final causality because it desires the absolutely unmoved mover. Even so, St. Thomas says many do not admit this and even Aristotle considers that it might not be so. An inanimate sphere does not desire anything, so it seems to me it would have to be moved directly. This wouldn't result in determinism for a couple reasons. The spheres cause motion with respect to bodies, but even so, chance occurs when two per se lines of causality intersect. Secondly, the intellect and will as spiritual powers are not subject to the effects of the heavenly bodies. But, unlike Aristotle, St. Thomas's arguments are not limited to corporeal movers and things moved or a self-moving mover:

    "[T]homas's procedure in offering his first general argument from motion in SCG I, c. 13 might lead us to conclude that such an argument can directly reach God. However, as we have already pointed out, the argumentation he offers for its two key principles is in large measure restricted to corporeal movers and corporeal moved-movers. The exception is his appeal to the broader act-potency theory in his third argument to show that whatever is moved is moved by something else. This broader justification for the principle appears to be needed if one wishes to apply it, as Thomas himself does in his second argument based on motion, to a cosmic self-mover which itself is moved by something else in the order of final causality, or to put it another way, if one is to arrive at a separate and completely immobile mover." (Wippel, The Metaphysical Thought of Thomas Aquinas, p. 428)

    Wippel argues that the First Way proceeds also by appeal to the broader act-potency theory, thus bypassing any concern for a cosmic self-mover. You can call God's efficient causing of motion mechanism, but it isn't because mechanism also entails a cosmos lacking in natures or final causes, which I do not accept.

    Second, you've given no argument or reference where St. Thomas says a final cause and not an efficient cause moves something from potency to act. Motion or change is brought about by agency not finality:

    "What is in potency cannot reduce itself to act; for example, the bronze which is in potency to being a statue cannot cause itself to be a statue, rather it needs an agent in order that the form of the statue might pass from potency to act. Neither can the form draw itself from potency to act. I mean the form of the thing generated which we say is the term of generation, because the form exists only in that which has been made to be. However, what is made is in the state of becoming as long as the thing is coming to be. Therefore it is necessary that besides the matter and form there be some principle which acts. This is called the efficient, moving or agent cause, or that whence the principle of motion is. Also, because, as Aristotle says in the second book of the Metaphysics, everything which acts acts only by intending something, it is necessary that there be some fourth thing, namely, that which is intended by the agent; and this is called the end." (De Principiis Naturae)

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  85. continued...

    The agent depends on its end to act, but it does not do away with the need for the agent cause. Otherwise, why even make the distinction between the two?

    He's [God is] our formal cause, as the Fourth Way demonstrates.

    As a side note, the Fourth Way is not about God being our formal cause. That would be pantheism:

    "We are now able to refute the error of certain persons who said that God is nothing other than the formal being of each thing.

    "This being is divided into the being of substance and the being of accident. Now, we have proved that the divine being is neither the being of substance nor that of accident. God, therefore, cannot be that being by which each thing formally is..." (SCG 1.26)

    God moves the will to this or that good when he provides grace. But even this is a matter of final causality, etc.

    I am having a hard time understanding the details here. Let's take your A (will), B (determinate end), C (intellect) example again. The more I think about this explanation as a complete account of willing, the more problems I have with it.

    Pace Lonergan, the intellect does not remove an impediment. It presents the finite goods to the will as its objects. Further, to remove an impediment is not the same thing as "to apply." It just means to remove an obstacle which then allows an agent to act. But this does not entail the actual application of an agent to its object in the sense of a movement from potency to act.

    St. Thomas says, God applies the will to its act as I've cited. Since you rule out God's efficient causality here, then what ultimately is doing the application in a particular instance (i.e., moving the will)?

    There can only be three possibilities:

    1. The will
    2. The intellect
    3. The finite good (final cause)

    It can't be the will because if it moves itself absolutely, then it reduces itself from a state of potentiality to actuality with respect to willing. Since the will is not always willing and must at certain times, then, be not willing, to move itself absolutely would entail it willing and not willing at the same time and in the same respect, which is a contradiction.

    It can't be the intellect because the intellect presents goods to the will and moves only insofar as it determines the act through the good chosen. Granting, the acts of the intellect and will are interspersed, ultimately the series of movers and moved with respect to acts of the intellect and cannot go onto infinity or result in a vicious circle (cf. SCG 3.89 cited above).

    It can't be the finite good. A good is an object of desire and end, but if we say it moves in the sense of moving the will from potency to act (vs. causing an agent as a principle or end of action), then absurdities arise. First, it seems to me a material being is moving an immaterial power from potency to act, which is at best mechanism and at worst absurd. Second, the will would be moving hither and yon since it would be moved whenever finite sensible goods are presented to it throughout time by the senses and intellect. Mere apprehension by sense and intellection would automatically result in willing. Thus, it seems to me for these reasons we need God's efficiency in these matters as an ultimate explanation for the movements of will from potency to act.

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  86. Sobieski,

    On your reading, that would be true. But St. Thomas calls God the Unmoved Mover. You say that God is so because He is the Supreme Good, even though that is not in the text of the First Way.

    First, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover#Final_cause_and_efficient_cause. (Before you say, "Gasp! Wikipedia!", almost all of the stuff in that section is quoted from scholarly works on Aristotle.) You can see here exactly in what sense Aristotle's Unmoved Mover was a mover.

    When Aquinas discusses the Unmoved Mover argument, he attributes it to Aristotle and makes no major changes to it. It should be pretty clear that he sees Aristotle's understanding as being non-controversial. He doesn't argue for Simplicius's interpretation over against Aristotle's original text.

    As I see it, your account hangs on two points: 1) the outer sphere in any physical argument moves by way of desire for the Unmoved Mover and 2) any efficient cause is reduced to a final cause as that which moves something from potency to act.

    I really don't see how 1 is relevant to the argument. Aristotle's talk about the outer spheres was necessitated by his view that the universe was eternal. It has nothing to do with our argument here. And 2 is clear just from that link I provided above. An important line from Aristotle: "natural things are those which move continuously in virtue of some principle within themselves towards a particular goal". And this principle is the draw of the Unmoved Mover, who pulls all things to act through desire. All efficient causality, as Aristotle says, presupposes a more fundamental final causality that causes it to occur.

    Wippel argues that the First Way proceeds also by appeal to the broader act-potency theory, thus bypassing any concern for a cosmic self-mover.

    I don't know which argument of mine you're attacking, but I fail to see how any of this is related to what we're talking about.

    Second, you've given no argument or reference where St. Thomas says a final cause and not an efficient cause moves something from potency to act.

    The argument for the Unmoved Mover is that everything contains a fundamental draw (a fundamental "motion") toward the Unmoved Mover. This interior principle is that which allows motion at every moment. Hence, the Unmoved Mover is the principle of all motion. That's what the argument is. Unless you can find some evidence that Aquinas differed wildly in his interpretation of the argument (he didn't), then I have no reason to change my view.

    However, if you really want to see Aquinas's breakdown of the Unmoved Mover argument, check SCG b1 ch13. A key passage:

    Nor are those beings moved by themselves that are moved by their nature as being moved from within; such is the case with animals, which evidently are moved by the soul. Nor, again, is this true of those beings, such as heavy and light bodies, which are moved through nature. For such beings are moved by the generating cause and the cause removing impediments.

    What else needs to be said?

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  87. The agent depends on its end to act, but it does not do away with the need for the agent cause.

    An agent cause is a cause that removes impediments. You're slipping into mechanism again.

    As a side note, the Fourth Way is not about God being our formal cause. That would be pantheism:

    "We are now able to refute the error of certain persons who said that God is nothing other than the formal being of each thing.

    "This being is divided into the being of substance and the being of accident. Now, we have proved that the divine being is neither the being of substance nor that of accident. God, therefore, cannot be that being by which each thing formally is..." (SCG 1.26)


    I'm familiar with this passage, but you've misread it. He's talking about being here, which is esse ("formal being"). He's saying that God is not esse commune (as it's called), because then God would be our being and this would lead to bizarre contradictions. However, God is our formal cause because he is the principle of all form, as the argument from degree proves.

    Pace Lonergan, the intellect does not remove an impediment. It presents the finite goods to the will as its objects.

    And the will is incapable of acting unless it has finite goods. Hence, the intellect removes the impediment to the will's action.

    Further, to remove an impediment is not the same thing as "to apply." It just means to remove an obstacle which then allows an agent to act.

    The application of an agent is nothing more than allowing that agent to fulfill a final cause that it was previously incapable of fulfilling. As Aquinas says, "beings are moved by the generating cause and the cause removing impediments." That is, beings are moved per accidens (generated) and per se (de-impeded). This is what we call efficient causality, and it's ultimately just an expression of other final causes.

    It can't be the intellect because the intellect presents goods to the will and moves only insofar as it determines the act through the good chosen.

    It's a combination of the will and intellect. First, though, it's important to note that the will does move itself (ST IIa q9 a3). Critically: "the will, through its volition of the end, moves itself to will the means." The end is, of course, the Unmoved Mover. Through the actuality provided by the Unmoved Mover's draw, the will is actualized to move itself to decide the means. Even more clearly:

    The motion of the subject itself is due to some agent. And since every agent acts for an end, as was shown above (Question 1, Article 2), the principle of this motion lies in the end. [...] Now good in general, which has the nature of an end, is the object of the will. Consequently, in this respect, the will moves the other powers of the soul to their acts, for we make use of the other powers when we will."

    But Aquinas's system of the intellect and will is absurdly complicated, and I'd prefer to avoid getting into too much detail. I think it should be obvious enough that your objection here carries no weight.

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  88. It can't be the finite good.

    Finite goods are part of the will's motion, as the ends that draw us to action (ST IIa q9 a4). But finite goods are ends only in the sense that they are means to an even higher end, toward which we are directed by necessity. This is the draw of the Unmoved Mover.

    Thus, it seems to me for these reasons we need God's efficiency in these matters as an ultimate explanation for the movements of will from potency to act.

    We need God's draw as an ultimate explanation, which is what Aquinas deduces in ST IIa q9 a6.

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  89. Codg:

    First of all, notice the persistent contradictions in the quotation I gave from you. You assert in one breath that God in Himself is utterly beyond being and thought, yet in the next breath use cataphatic words like “is”, “to be”, “of God”, “about God”, etc. So in the very act of denying any positive knowledge or existence of God, you rely upon positive knowledge of God’s unique act of being. Your claim about God is that we can’t make claims about God. The retorsion problem again.

    Welcome to mystical theology! As Gregory of Nyssa said: “This is what it means to see: not to see” and Pseudo-Dionysius: “To see in blindness, the very act of not seeing”. Contradiction, paradox, absurdity. That is what happens in any theology, because talking about what is beyond thought and speech necessarily results in the unraveling of language itself under the strain of what cannot be contained within language at all. If you want to jettison Christian mystical theology, then be my guest.

    The fallacy you commit is of this kind: just because any thought we have, or display we make, of pi will terminate on some arbitrary digit, we cannot speak of or know anything at all about pi.

    But we can know an approximation of pi. We know with certainty what the first finite number of digits are, and only lose our grip on what is beyond that. With God, there is nothing positive that we can know about him analogous to the first finite series of digits of pi. With God, even the first digit must be negated and rejected as inadequate.

    Aside from that you once again performatively contradict yourself by adding anything after “we cannot conceive of”. If something is literally inconceivable, it can’t stand in as the subject of an inconceivability claim.

    “A square circle is inconceivable”. Are you saying that square circles are conceivable after all, because to negate them is to implicitly understand their affirmative?

    You say we cannot conceive of God, yet you invoke the conception of Him as “that which is beyond distinction and multiplicity … [and as] metaphysically simple”.

    It is a purely negative and apophatic knowledge.

    As I showed with your citations of Denys Turner, you admit there is a dialectic between light and dark, but then simply say the darkness is all there is in theology. Remember, even the most obscure mystics claimed that our ignorance was of God, that we ascend to the darkness of God.

    Turner writes that there is a first-order logic of theology, which involves affirmation and negation, which would correspond to your dynamic between light and dark, but also that there is a second-order logic of theology, which involves the negation of negation, which is total darkness and emptiness. The only way that light plays a role here is in the claim that the darkness is due to an excess of light that blinds the believer, but I would contend that at this point, one does not know whether that is true, or if the alternative is true, i.e. that there is no light at all.

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  90. You’re saying that when we think about God, we’re actually thinking about our thoughts about God: that any M of G, M(G), is actually an M of C, M(C). You can’t, however, say M(G) is identical to M(C) because, precisely by insisting upon the infinite difference between G and C, you admit that there is a difference between M(G) and M(C), and thus that they are not identical.

    First, there is no such thing as M(G) at all. M(G) is impossible, if M(G) has affirmative content.

    Second, we think we have M(G), but since it is impossible what we have in mind is not M(G), but rather M(C). We deceive ourselves and fall under the seduction of an idol.

    So, in barest form, you’re saying this: “When I M(G), I mean that M(G) is M(~G).” (Eez, ‘ow you say, le fail?)

    Actually, what I’m saying is when I think I think M(G), I cannot possibly be thinking M(G) at all, but rather must be thinking M(C) instead. To think otherwise is to delude oneself, because what is beyond thought cannot be thought.

    Your own syllogism proves too much, anyway, since C is actually of G, or C(G), and thus M is in fact M(C(G)), which does not negate the fact that our C is of G. If C can be of C(G), then by extension M(C) is of G.

    C is not about G, because no C can be about G, but only about what G is not. And G is beyond all negations that we can come up with. Any words that one uses to talk about G unravel into meaninglessness. That is why silence is the best response and apotheosis of theology.

    Conversely, because there is a real distinction between a thing and our thoughts of the thing (as well as between our thoughts about our thoughts of a thing!), we can, manifestly, parse the distinctions. We can recognize when we’re talking about either the word “fish” or a thing that is a fish, but by your logic, our mental occupation M with fish F, or M(F), is actually mentation about our own conception C of fish, M(C), such conceiving which is indexed by the word “fish”. This is why I think your problem is not so much with theology, but with a theory of meaning and intellection as such.

    Well, since theology is essentially how we can think and talk about God, you are correct that this ultimately comes down to a theory of meaning and intellection. It has long been my contention that Aquinas’ theory of language and mind makes it impossible to think about God. To think about anything necessarily requires an isomorphism between the form of the known object and the form within the knowing intellect. It is the same form F in both, but in different modes, i.e. F-in-intellect versus F-in-entity. And this works great for composite entia, but it fails utterly with divine simplicity. The problem is that since God is a being whose essence is identical to his existence by virtue of divine simplicity, then to have God’s essence in the intellect means to have God himself in the intellect. But this is impossible. After all, act is limited by potency, and God, as pure act, cannot be limited by potency. However, if God is in an intellect, then God is limited by potency, which means that the unlimited is limited, which is impossible. Therefore, it is impossible to know God, and if we cannot know God, then we cannot talk about God. Only a metaphysically simple entity can know a metaphysically simple entity.

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  91. Now, you could reply that this only applies to comprehensive knowledge of God, which is knowing God as he is perfectly in himself. But the problem here is that if comprehensive knowledge of God is knowing God in his infinite perfection, then the alternative is either not knowing God at all or knowing God in a finite and imperfect fashion. What does it mean to know God in a finite and imperfect fashion? This cannot be partial knowledge of God in which we know some things about God, but do not know other things, because that would imply composition in God, which is impossible. In fact, any knowledge of God is either all or nothing. You either know God in his entirety or not at all, because of divine simplicity. Since we cannot know him comprehensively, i.e. in his entirety, it follows that we cannot know God at all.

    “God, however, as considered in Himself, is altogether one and simple, yet our intellect knows Him by different conceptions because it cannot see Him as He is in Himself. Nevertheless, although it understands Him under different conceptions, it knows that one and the same simple object corresponds to its conceptions. Therefore the plurality of predicate and subject represents the plurality of idea; and the intellect represents the unity by composition.

    But this solution won’t work, and for the reasons that I outlined above. To say that subject and predicate both refer to the same object, but in different conceptions, i.e. the former as a substance and the latter as an accident, for example, both the substance and the accident have forms that can be received by an intellect in order to have any understanding whatsoever. This is possible only for composite beings in whom their essence can be separated from their existence, because otherwise the beings themselves would actually exist in the intellect, which is impossible. Clearly, this is impossible when it comes to a divinely simple entity in whom essence is identical to existence, for the reasons I mentioned above.

    Furthermore, it is possible to make a distinction between subject and predicate according to different conceptions, because they are different. The subject is a concrete and individual entity, and the predicate is a universal. Although the universal is immanent within the individual, they are not identical. In God, this is impossible, because the subject is identical to the predicate, making the distinction itself impossible, because they are the same thing. And if they are identical and the same, then how can there be different conceptions? Is one conception missing something from the other conception? How is this possible with knowledge of something that is either known in total or not known at all?

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  92. “… [Even with respect to non-divine things,] the mode of the intellect in understanding is different from the mode of the thing in its essence. Since it is clear that our intellect understands [even] material things below itself in an immaterial manner; not that it understands them to be immaterial things; but its manner of understanding is immaterial. Likewise, [even] when it understands simple things above itself, it understands them according to its own mode, which is in a composite manner; yet not so as to understand them to be composite things. And thus our intellect is not false in forming composition [from plurality] in its ideas concerning God [in His simplicity].”

    But this won’t work, either. Recall that Aquinas says that humans have a particular mode of understanding and a particular mode of signification that is rooted in created realities, and thus has to be denied when a human being is trying to understand or speak about that which transcends created realities. Why is this step even necessary if the above quote is right? After all, the above quote says that even if the reality of X is different from our mode of understanding X, then that is fine, because our ideas about X are still true regardless of our mode of understanding. But the fact that this step is necessary means that our mode of understanding God is actually distorting our understanding of God, and thus must be denied.

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  93. DavidM:

    NO; WRONG - that does not follow, no matter how often you repeat it. If a thought involves a distinction, it does NOT follow that none of the objects involved in that distinction can be simple, or that what the thought represents must be composite. That's like saying a painting of a sheep must be woolly, otherwise it does not actually represent a sheep. Utter nonsense.

    Why must we deny our mode of signification and mode of understanding when we talk about and think about God unless our created mode fundamentally distorts what our mind conceives about God? What is it about our created modes of understanding and signification that is the problem unless the fact that they are composite and trying to understand that which is simple? After all, only a simple being can understand a simple being.

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  94. Codg said: You say we cannot conceive of God, yet you invoke the conception of Him as “that which is beyond distinction and multiplicity … [and as] metaphysically simple”.

    dguller replied: It is a purely negative and apophatic knowledge.

    dguller, this is wrong. It is not purely negative and apophatic knowledge.
    Simplicity is a perfection which makes a being identical with everything that constitutes it. It is a most positive perfection, but conceived of by us in a negative way – the exclusion of all composition.
    Similarly with God’s Infinite Being: but see that though conceived in a negative way by denying all limitation, we are negating a negation because limitation is itself a negation of further perfection. And so the absence of limitation, the negation of a negation is therefore an affirmation.
    Composition implies a want of identity. It seems you are trying to use your conception of God to prove we can't conceive of God – of course your manner of knowing is deficient (as is everyone’s), but it’s wrong to say your knowledge is “purely negative and apophatic.” I’m sorry, but Codg is right: in invoking the conception of God as “beyond distinction and multiplicity ... [and as] metaphysically simple,” and elsewhere as infinite, you are contradicting yourself, not Aquinas.

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  95. Jack:

    dguller, this is wrong. It is not purely negative and apophatic knowledge.
Simplicity is a perfection which makes a being identical with everything that constitutes it. It is a most positive perfection, but conceived of by us in a negative way – the exclusion of all composition.

    But the negation of what we can know about X does not give us any positive knowledge of X, but only knowing about what X is not. Even saying that divine simplicity is “a most positive perfection” is a negation, because all we can positively know are imperfect manifestations of perfections. You want to shoehorn positivity from negativity when Aquinas says that no matter what positive content you have in mind, you must negate it due to the fundamental inadequacy of the human intellect to know God’s nature.

    
Similarly with God’s Infinite Being: but see that though conceived in a negative way by denying all limitation, we are negating a negation because limitation is itself a negation of further perfection. And so the absence of limitation, the negation of a negation is therefore an affirmation.

    We understand finitude and limitation based upon our interactions with composite entia in the world. Boundaries and limits are everywhere, and we know what it means in a positive fashion to say that a limit is that which a thing cannot go beyond. Therefore, it must be the case that the infinite and unlimited are understood as the negation of finitude and limitation. Our affirmations begin with where we start, and not where we wish we could start. We do not begin with perfection, but rather with imperfection, and so your claim that if we started with perfection, then negating it would result in imperfection, which when negated would result in perfection is irrelevant, because we do not begin with imperfection. Like the game of “he loves me, he loves me not”, where you end up depends upon where you begin. We must begin where we are and with what we know, i.e. as imperfect and finite entities.

    
Composition implies a want of identity.

    I don’t know what this means.

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  96. It seems you are trying to use your conception of God to prove we can't conceive of God – of course your manner of knowing is deficient (as is everyone’s), but it’s wrong to say your knowledge is “purely negative and apophatic.” I’m sorry, but Codg is right: in invoking the conception of God as “beyond distinction and multiplicity ... [and as] metaphysically simple,” and elsewhere as infinite, you are contradicting yourself, not Aquinas.

    I am not. I am conceiving of God in a wholly negative fashion, and thus am in keeping with Aquinas who wrote that “because we cannot know what God is, but rather what He is not, we have no means for considering how God is, but rather how He is not”. We start from where we are, and from that standpoint, there are a number of affirmations and positive claims that we can make. The negation of these affirmations and positive claims does not result in more affirmations and positive claims, except by pretending that we start other than where we actually begin. And since we begin with multiplicity and distinction, then that is the affirmative and positive beginning, and thus any negation of that positive beginning results in sheer negativity. We can pretend that this negativity is actually positive, but that is just a confusion of our minds, I think.

    I think that knowledge of God is what happens when reason itself reaches a certain point beyond which it simply unravels, and that unknowing is where God is supposed to be, but he exists in a cloud of darkness that our minds simply cannot penetrate in any positive fashion, because he transcends – by virtue of his divine simplicity and its implications – any affirmation that we can actually understand. That is why Christian mystical theologians have argued that the closest that one can come to God is by letting go and detaching oneself from any thoughts and images that one can have, because all of them are infinitely deficient to the degree that we do not even know how far off they are from reaching God himself.

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  97. "The only way that light plays a role here is in the claim that the darkness is due to an excess of light that blinds the believer, but I would contend that at this point, one does not know whether that is true, or if the alternative is true, i.e. that there is no light at all." - Why, then, do you again and again insist that one ends in *darkness*, that the negation of negation can only yield negativity?? You really are a contrarian! You make an argument which confirms what Codg said, then you manage to somehow add the final conclusion, "so you see, I am right about mystical theology and you are wrong!"

    "Actually, what I’m saying is when I think I think M(G), I cannot possibly be thinking M(G) at all, but rather must be thinking M(C) instead. To think otherwise is to delude oneself, because what is beyond thought cannot be thought." - ayiyiyi! So you're saying there is no M(G) available to human cognition; but also, according to your position, there is necessarily no M(C(G)) - right? So what is M(C)?? Just some vague general apprehension of the intellect as such? Now you wrote:

    "you would then be coming very close to Eckhart’s doctrine that my ground and God’s ground are identical with respect to the intellect. But that’s a whole other matter."

    But that is NOT a whole other matter! That is fundamentally the whole point! That is why you are WRONG about your purely negative characterization of the endpoint of mystical theology! Every M(x) or M(C(x)) is not just negated in respect to God, that negation is also negated and EVERYTHING ends up reflecting the being of God, albeit imperfectly, and we know why this is because at the end of the reasoning process we don't just forget about that process. Instead our awareness of the process constitutes and illuminates our understanding of our own (learned) ignorance in regard to God (and in turn in regard to all of creation).

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  98. @dguller: "I am not. I am conceiving of God in a wholly negative fashion..." - I'm afraid you're the only one who is able to see that this is simply not true. Every time you try to explain yourself, you just prove yourself wrong.

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  99. i.e., "unable" (not "able")

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  100. "First, there is no such thing as M(G) at all. M(G) is impossible, if M(G) has affirmative content."

    1. M(G) doesn't exist. (premise)
    2. I know that M(G) doesn't exist. (implied by 1)
    3. I have no positive conception of M(G). (implied by 1)
    4. If I had a thought M(G), then 1, 2, and 3 would be false.
    5. My affirmation of 1, 2, and 3 imply that I am thinking M(G).
    6. Therefore 1, 2, and 3 are false.

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  101. dguller wrote: "We do not begin with perfection, but rather with imperfection, and so your claim that if we started with perfection, then negating it would result in imperfection, which when negated would result in perfection is irrelevant, because we do not begin with imperfection[sic]." (emphasis his)

    Look, I’m a bit confused. I believe you accidentally wrote imperfection at the end (which is correct) rather than perfection (which is consistent with your point). If you meant to say “we do not begin with perfection” then you’re just talking nonsense to force your case through.

    In seeing finite things we distinguish in them, by abstraction, perfection and limitation. Imperfection just is perfection limited (in some way). So the idea that, via abstraction, we begin with imperfection and limitation is just wrong. No, to reach Infinite Being we start with finite things, distinguish in them perfection and limitation, and finally deny limitation to form the abstract concept unlimited perfection or Infinite Being.

    By saying composition implies a want of identity I mean that composition is a limit on the perfection of simplicity.

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  102. justification of 2 should read: (implied by *affirmation of* 1)

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  103. DavidM:

    Why, then, do you again and again insist that one ends in *darkness*, that the negation of negation can only yield negativity?? You really are a contrarian! You make an argument which confirms what Codg said, then you manage to somehow add the final conclusion, "so you see, I am right about mystical theology and you are wrong!"

    Because one does end in darkness. One must negate anything about God that comes to mind as infinitely inadequate to be about God at all. The further question is the cause of this darkness, i.e. due to too much light or too little light. From within the darkness, we cannot know which of these possibilities is true, and thus exist in a state of undecidability and tension, which is part of what drives the passionate intensity of faith itself.

    So you're saying there is no M(G) available to human cognition; but also, according to your position, there is necessarily no M(C(G)) - right? So what is M(C)?? Just some vague general apprehension of the intellect as such?

    M(C) is anything that comes to mind that the mind thinks is God. It is like coming up with a number at infinity. You always know that there is more numbers after that number, and thus you haven’t reached infinity at all. You can pretend that that number is sufficiently large as to be infinity, but you would be deluded and confused. Similarly, given the fact that only a metaphysically simple entity could truly know a metaphysically simple entity, it follows that no compound entity could truly know a metaphysically simple entity.

    Every M(x) or M(C(x)) is not just negated in respect to God, that negation is also negated and EVERYTHING ends up reflecting the being of God, albeit imperfectly, and we know why this is because at the end of the reasoning process we don't just forget about that process. Instead our awareness of the process constitutes and illuminates our understanding of our own (learned) ignorance in regard to God (and in turn in regard to all of creation).

    You are confused. At a first-order level, the negation of a negation is a higher affirmation, but at a second-order level, the negation of negation itself is not an affirmation at all, but rather the absence of anything at all, including affirmation and negation. That is the cloud of unknowing, the darkness, nothingness and emptiness that is the apotheosis of theology.

    "I am not. I am conceiving of God in a wholly negative fashion..." - I'm afraid you're the only one who is unable to see that this is simply not true. Every time you try to explain yourself, you just prove yourself wrong.

    Sorry, but nope. I am saying that anything the comes to mind that I think is about God cannot possibly be about God, and thus must be rejected and negated, leaving me with nothing at all. As von Balthasar says about Gregory of Nyssa:

    “Each time god calls her, she rises, even though she has been running a long time. Each time God gives her a kiss, it is as if she had not yet received any. She is ever refashioned by the divine goldsmith … each time God seems to have entered her, she finds herself still outside … the soul is each time ‘as if she had not even begun’ to see, and God on his part remains always at ‘the same distance above’ her” (Presence and Thought: An Essay on the Religious Philosophy of Gregory of Nyssa, pp. 99-100).

    You have to keep in mind the dialectical tension that necessarily occurs between cataphatic and apophatic language, which can only be resolved in the impossible state of mind in which there is no state of mind at all.

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  104. 1. M(G) doesn't exist. (premise)
2. I know that M(G) doesn't exist. (implied by 1)
3. I have no positive conception of M(G). (implied by 1)
4. If I had a thought M(G), then 1, 2, and 3 would be false.
5. My affirmation of 1, 2, and 3 imply that I am thinking M(G).
6. Therefore 1, 2, and 3 are false.

    Here’s an analogous argument:

    1. Square circles don’t exist
    2. I know that square circles don’t exist
    3. I have no positive conception of square circles
    4. If I had a thought about square circles, then 1, 2 and 3 would be false
    5. My affirmation of 1, 2 and 3 imply that I am thinking of square circles
    6. Therefore, 1, 2 and 3 are false

    Can you spot the error?

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  105. "Can you spot the error?"

    Yes, guller, the error is obviously 4. It's obviously not analogous. Can you see that? I'll let you think about it for a bit rather than just telling you why...

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  106. "You are confused." - LOL! Are you sure about that?

    "At a first-order level, the negation of a negation is a higher affirmation, but at a second-order level, the negation of negation itself is not an affirmation at all, but rather the absence of anything at all, including affirmation and negation." - And why is that: because that's what you read?

    Anyway, surely that is just wrong: at a first order level, the negation of a negation is an affirmation at the *same* level. At a second order level the negation of negation is the negation of negation! - i.e., it is itself, i.e., it is not the absence of anything at all. Insist upon your absurdity all you like; it seems clear that there is nothing compelling you to embrace it but your own irrational predilection.

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  107. DavidM:

    Yes, guller, the error is obviously 4. It's obviously not analogous. Can you see that? I'll let you think about it for a bit rather than just telling you why...

    Be my guest. Your point is that any denial of X necessarily implies knowledge of X, and thus my denial of knowledge of God necessarily implies first having knowledge of God in order to subsequently deny that knowledge. Clearly, it is not always the case that denying the validity of X necessarily means that X is a meaningful proposition to begin with. It could be incoherent, which is why it must be denied in the first place.

    "At a first-order level, the negation of a negation is a higher affirmation, but at a second-order level, the negation of negation itself is not an affirmation at all, but rather the absence of anything at all, including affirmation and negation." - And why is that: because that's what you read?

    Here’s one place that I read it:

    "We make assertions and denials of what is next to it, but never of it, for it is both beyond every assertion, being the perfect and unique cause of all things, and, by virtue of its preeminently simple and absolute nature, free of every limitation, beyond every limitation; it is also beyond every denial" (Pseudo-Dionysius, Mystical Theology, 5.1048B; emphasis mine).

    Anyway, surely that is just wrong: at a first order level, the negation of a negation is an affirmation at the *same* level. At a second order level the negation of negation is the negation of negation! - i.e., it is itself, i.e., it is not the absence of anything at all. Insist upon your absurdity all you like; it seems clear that there is nothing compelling you to embrace it but your own irrational predilection.

    You are right that I misspoke. Let me clarify.

    At the first-order level of theological discourse, you start with some affirmation about God, but are forced to negate it on the basis that it must be infinitely deficient of God, but in that very negation you have a higher affirmation that is supposed to bring you closer to God. However, even that higher affirmation is infinitely deficient, and thus must be negated in an even higher affirmation. And the process proceeds forever and ever without end, because one can never get closer to that which is beyond all limitation.

    But this is simply a dialectical dynamic between affirmation and negation, and thus remains at the first-order level of theological discourse. The second-ordered theological discourse occurs when one realizes that the only way to terminate this infinite process is to negate affirmation and negation themselves, which ultimately means the rejection of all intellectual states of mind that carry propositional content, which ultimately means the rejection and negation of all thoughts, images and experiences. That is the radical detachment that Christian mystical theologians, such as Bonaventure, Eckhart, the Cloud author, and John of the Cross have written about.

    I hope this helps.

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  108. @DavidM:
    "I take it de Lubac agrees with the elicited desire bit, but perhaps, like myself, doesn't understand what this otiose desire is about? Is it just that it is the kind of desire that no one thinks can be naturally fulfilled, so that in the natural order it has no practical consequences? Whereas de Lubac thinks...?"

    Actually, De Lubac does not think this desire is elicited, but innate and unconditional. For the Thomist, this is a highly problematic view, for any innate natural tendency must be capable of fulfillment by natural means. So de Lubac's view cuts against the Thomisitic view of the integrity of nature by positing a natural tendency incapable of fulfillment. This raises the specter of Pelagianism, for if the desire is innate, God owes us the means to fulfill it. So the question, for the Thomist is about the integrity of nature. Of course, the Thomist recognizes that man was created in a graced state, so there was never a time at which this desire was otiose. But the Thomist maintains that if man were created simply in his natural state, his desire for the beatific vision would be recognized as incapable of fulfillment, and the best he could hope for would be the contemplation of God through his created effects (which is what that wise pagan, Aristotle, held out as the best activity we could attain - he had no notion of a revelation promising the vision of God's essence). De Lubac hesitatingly admits that this would be possible, but that a man in such a state "would not be me". So he's more focused on the existential situation we find ourselves in than in a speculative understanding of human nature and its relation to grace.

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  109. dguller wrote: I am not. I am conceiving of God in a wholly negative fashion, and thus am in keeping with Aquinas who wrote that “because we cannot know what God is, but rather what He is not, we have no means for considering how God is, but rather how He is not”

    No, I’m afraid you’re wrong again. Yes finite being is imperfect. But this just means some perfection has been limited in some way. I’ve explained that from finite being we abstract perfection and limit (distinguishing between them). So the negation of a negation, as when we deny limitation to form the abstract concept of unlimited perfection / Infinite Being, is therefore an affirmation.

    You obviously weren’t aware of it, but you’ve not been conceiving of God in a wholly negative fashion at all and thus are in keeping with Aquinas who wrote that “from the knowledge of sensible things the whole power of God cannot be known; nor therefore can His essence be seen. But because they are His effects and depend on their cause, we can be led from them so far as to know of God whether He exists, and on to know of Him what must necessarily belong to Him, as the first cause of all things, exceeding all things caused by Him.” (S.T. Ia, 12, 12)

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  110. @RS

    I think I understand where you are coming from now and will try to sum up what I see you as saying regarding the issues pertinent to our discussion:

    1. At the level of creation or the metaphysical level of the act of being (esse), God acts as an efficient cause to bring things into being. So arguments like the Second Way can proceed in the order of efficient causality and conclude to the existence of God without direct reference to final causality which nonetheless underlies all causality or further concerns respecting the celestial hierarchy. I.e., such arguments are obviously operating at a deeper metaphysical level than that of physical motion.

    2. With respect to arguments for God's existence re: physical motion/change, God acts as a final cause by drawing all things to Himself. This is so, for example, in Aristotle's cosmology because physical changes are traceable at most to the outer sphere, which moves not by God's efficient action but by desire of Him as the highest good. Regardless of theories concerning a celestial hierarchy, however, all motion is reducible to God's final causality, i.e., is enabled by it. So talk about an Unmoved Mover concerns final rather than efficient causality, and as a result specific cosmological considerations are not a concern per se to such arguments. Regardless of cosmology, the underlying causality of Aquinas's First Way is final causality, and I suppose, that would be so for the Second Way as well since all causality is ultimately reducible to final causality.

    [As for Wippel's comments on the motion arguments, his point was that when St. Thomas's arguments proceed from the broader act/potency account of motion (vs. corporeal movers and things moved), they can bypass any concern regarding self-movers (i.e., an animated outer sphere). If the self-mover is taken out of the picture, then there need be no transition in the argument from efficient to final causation. Thus, the entire argument in the First Way, for example, can be viewed from the standpoint of efficient causality even if in theory there is a self-moved mover moving an outer sphere by way of final causality. In such circumstances, movements from potency to act would still be occurring, which requires an efficient prime mover.

    You would balk first that that is not Aristotle's argument, which you have no reason to think St. Thomas departs from. I would say that there is no reason to believe that St. Thomas slavishly follows Aristotle in this matter because he along with a number of other commentators either develop or depart from Aristotle on a host of issues in the tradition. But we need not get side-tracked on that issue because it is irrelevant to the discussion. The deeper point on your view is that all efficiency is reduced to finality, so you would argue that the motion arguments are ultimately not about efficient causality.]

    3. As regards arguments from motion like those in SCG 1.13 or the First Way, the point is not that we are tracing a series of motions in terms of an efficient "push" back to Unmoved Mover, which results in a mechanistic cosmology, but that we are tracing a series of motions in terms of an final "draw" or "pull" back to said Being.

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  111. continued...

    4. With respect to agency, I am still a little confused on your position. To say agent causes act to remove impediments seems backwards. Removing an impediment is an actualization. Further St. Thomas says that agents only give what they themselves have. So talk of removing is counter-intuitive, I think, though not necessarily wrong if considered properly. Does the pot become hot because the burner acts on it or because the burner removes the impediment of cold? If the latter, then it seems the pot self-actualizes. But maybe you are saying that not all agents act to remove impediments or that the removal of an impediment is itself an actualization. I can understand, say, a person (agent) placing a pot on a burner thereby removing the impediment of non-contact such that the burner can heat the pot (i.e., the pot (matter) moves from cold (existing form) and non-hot (privation) to hot (end form). In that case removing an impediment is a prior actualization of the pot being moved from location to another.

    Regardless, the underlying principe again is that agents act towards their ends, the ends being ultimately reducible to the Ultimate End, who is God and accounts for the finite reductions of potency to act via final causality. With respect to premotion and predestination, I would have to reflect more on how God's "draw" by removing impediments can "apply" the will to act and concretely determine it to particular goods re: the texts.

    5. Finally, I am in agreement with you about not getting into side discussions over the Fourth Way and the interrelation of acts between the intellect and will. With respect to the Fourth Way, however, I would say that if God is our formal cause, then our nature, which is constituted by the principles of matter and form, would be God or in part God. That view would be akin to pantheism. Obviously, I don't think that is what you mean or intend. Wippel, for example, holds that the Fourth Way is about participation in being understood in terms of efficient causality. Further, St. Thomas talks about God as our exemplar as well. So in that sense I would agree with you. But God cannot be our form in the sense of part of our nature or substance.

    As regards the relations between operations of the intellect and will, I agree that it is a complex topic about which there are many interpretations. We both agree that the operations of these two powers are ultimately reducible to God. You would read that as being in the order of final causality, so a discussion of that topic wouldn't move us beyond what we've already been discussing.

    6. This is all relevant to the original discussion of physical premotion and predestination because on the Banezian reading of St. Thomas, the will is moved efficiently by God, which is mechanistic, necessitating and violent. Thus, the result is occasionalism, the destruction of freedom of will, etc. Though St. Thomas states that God applyies the will to its act and further determines it to "this or that" in certain circumstances, ultimately such talk is about final vs. efficient causality, which leaves freedom in tact.

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  112. continued...

    Please correct me if I am wrong or missing anything. While I am suspect of your reading of the nature of the four causes, agency and how God applies the will to act and particular goods, I am not sure at this point further discussion will get us anywhere beyond correcting any misunderstandings. I think our argument has been ultimately at the level of causality. I would be interested to know what Thomists like Dr. Feser think of all this because apart from the wider discussion of premotion, I haven't read them as advocating your interpretation of final causality (unless I was misreading them). I understand that any agent always acts for some end, but it seems to me you are saying more than that with respect to the relationship between agent and end (i.e., that the agent is really nothing other than the end, etc.).

    Finally, is your reading of all this primarily out of Fr. Lonergan and Aristotelian scholars? Would you recommend any summary works or articles that succinctly lay out the issues/differences and argue for your point beyond what you've already recommended? Thanks.

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  113. dguller,

    Unless you have some kind of response to my case on causality, I don't think there's any reason to continue arguing about analogy. The following syllogism (tweaked from the last version) is valid.

    1. A contingent entity must be grounded in something other than itself.
    2. All esse-essence hybrids are contingent.
    3. All contingent things represent those things in which they are grounded.
    4. Therefore, contingent esse-essence hybrids represent something other than themselves, which is not itself contingent.

    Your objection has been that causality is incomprehensible unless we can speak about a cause univocally. But it's clear that causality is solely in the moved; all causes are inferred a posteriori. As a result, it's perfectly valid to say that creation was caused without making a univocal affirmation of God. This entails that Pseudo-Dionysian analogy is valid, which makes your objections to everyone else irrelevant. Do you have a response?

    Sobieski,

    I'll respond point by point.

    1. Yes, this is pretty much entirely what I think.

    2. You've basically nailed my position, here. I'm not sure I'd say that the Second Way is about final causality, except insofar as God's efficient creations are always within the divine plan. And it should be remembered that all ensouled beings are self-movers in the sense that the outer sphere was a self-mover. Beings without souls (such as rocks) are moved naturally as well, as Aquinas affirms, which means that they are drawn by the Unmoved Mover.

    3. Exactly.

    4. I can understand, say, a person (agent) placing a pot on a burner thereby removing the impediment of non-contact such that the burner can heat the pot (i.e., the pot (matter) moves from cold (existing form) and non-hot (privation) to hot (end form). In that case removing an impediment is a prior actualization of the pot being moved from location to another. -- I think you're correct, here. I might be wrong, but I believe that the efficient cause of this change is the person, the formal cause the heat and the material cause the pot. The final cause would be the heating of the pot. And, again, the efficient cause of every change is the final cause of another, and all change traces back to the final causality drawn out by the Unmoved Mover.

    5. Yeah, I meant that God was our formal cause in the sense of being our "exemplar". Nothing fancier than that.

    6. Yes.

    And I agree that we probably won't get any further by repeating ourselves. It should be said that my understanding of causality just developed over the last few days, after reading that article by Lonergan, Google Books-ing a bit of Lonergan's longer-form writing and checking out material on Aristotle's understanding of the Unmoved Mover. I'd had intuitions in this direction from my reading of Aquinas's primary texts, Prof. Feser, David Oderberg, Hart and the Church Fathers, but until now I haven't understood exactly how it all fits together. I can say, though, that a whole lot of difficult passages in Aquinas suddenly make sense to me with this understanding of causality. I also finally understand what "the cause of causes" means. The downside of all this is that I can't recommend any more writings than I already have, since it's so new to me. Sorry.

    Anyway, this debate has been hugely influential on my thinking (as long debates on this blog often are), so I've got to thank you for that. I learned a ton--which is why I love arguing on this blog. Take care.

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  114. Jack:

    Look, I’m a bit confused. I believe you accidentally wrote imperfection at the end (which is correct) rather than perfection (which is consistent with your point).

    You’re right, I mis-typed.

    If you meant to say “we do not begin with perfection” then you’re just talking nonsense to force your case through.

    Our knowledge of things does not begin with perfection, but rather with imperfection. Only God is perfect, and we certainly do not begin with God in our knowledge, but rather with contingent composite entia in the world, which are far from perfect.

    In seeing finite things we distinguish in them, by abstraction, perfection and limitation. Imperfection just is perfection limited (in some way). So the idea that, via abstraction, we begin with imperfection and limitation is just wrong. No, to reach Infinite Being we start with finite things, distinguish in them perfection and limitation, and finally deny limitation to form the abstract concept unlimited perfection or Infinite Being.

    As you say, “we start with finite things”. Finite things are not perfect, but rather are imperfect, and so if we start with finite things that are imperfect, then we must start with imperfection. It is only subsequent analysis and synthesis of our concepts of these finite and imperfect things that results in some idea of perfection. You are looking at the conclusion at the end and are reading it into the beginning, which, on the one hand, makes perfect sense, because the conclusion was virtually present in the beginning, but on the other hand is inappropriate, because the conclusion was not actually present in the beginning, and we are talking about our actual thoughts and knowledge, not virtual or potential knowledge.

    You obviously weren’t aware of it, but you’ve not been conceiving of God in a wholly negative fashion at all and thus are in keeping with Aquinas who wrote that “from the knowledge of sensible things the whole power of God cannot be known; nor therefore can His essence be seen. But because they are His effects and depend on their cause, we can be led from them so far as to know of God whether He exists, and on to know of Him what must necessarily belong to Him, as the first cause of all things, exceeding all things caused by Him.” (S.T. Ia, 12, 12)

    I’m afraid I disagree. How can one “know of Him what must necessarily belong to him” and yet “because we cannot know what God is, but rather what He is not, we have no means for considering how God is, but rather how He is not”. So, we neither know what he is nor how he is, but we can know “what must necessarily belong to him”? Each claim compromises the other.

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  115. Rank:

    I'll be getting around to responding to your claim over the next few days. To be honest, I do not entirely understand your position, and want to take some time to properly digest it.

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  116. @RS

    Same to you. Thanks for the references and conversation. I am glad the discussion has been helpful. I also find such discussions like this one help me get a better grasp of the topic at hand or see issues that I didn't see before. You've given me some things to think about. Just in closing, I came across this passage in De principiis 4 that is to the point we've been discussing. You have probably read it:

    "Note too that it is possible for the same thing to be cause and caused with respect to the same, though differently: as taking a walk is the cause of health as efficient cause, but health is the cause of taking a walk, as its end, for one sometimes takes a walk for the sake of health. So too body is the matter of soul, but soul is the form of body. The efficient cause is said to be so with respect to the end, since the end can only actually be attained by the activity of an agent, but the end is said to be the cause of the agent that acts only with the intention of achieving the end. Hence, the efficient cause is the cause that the end is -- that health might be -- but it does not make the end to be end -- that is, it does not cause the end to be final: just as the physician causes health actually to be, but he does not make health to be an end. For the end is the cause of that which is efficient, that is, the cause that the efficient is efficient -- health doesn't cause the physician to be a physician: I mean the health that comes to be as the result of the physician's activity -- but it causes the physician to act. The end, consequently, is the cause of efficient causality and makes the efficient cause efficient; similarly it makes matter to be matter and form to be form, since matter receives form thanks to the end, and form only perfects matter because of the end. That is why the end is called the cause of causes: it is the cause of the causality of the other causes." (tr. R. McInerny)

    The way I read this is that the end causes the causality of the other causes in the sense that it is the reason why the agent acts, the form forms and matter is formed. As St. Thomas says, it doesn't make the physician a physician (i.e., account for his being, powers or acts in an ontological sense), but it is the reason why he acts, i.e., why he is efficient. Health, for example, as an end cannot bring a sick body deprived of health to the state of health by itself (i.e., move the body from potency to act), but it is the reason why the physician acts on the body to bring about that end (i.e., moves it from potential health to actual health). So I don't think agency can be reduced to finality beyond giving a reason or explanation for why agents act the way they do. Without an end, of course, an agent couldn't act. Without an agent, an end would never be attained. The end's capacity to "draw" cannot be the entire explanation. So while we need ends in nature to account for motion and regularity, we also need agents to bring those ends about. Related to that, when St. Thomas says God moves the will, I take it that he means efficiently because finality does not provide the whole explanation. Agency must bring about the end willed, i.e., the movement from potency to act. At least that is the way I see it.

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  117. Rank:

    A contingent being is one that can fail to exist, and a contingent being that can fail to exist has to be grounded in another--otherwise it wouldn't exist at all. Pretty simple. Appealing to an infinite number of contingent beings is not an argument.

    But it begs the question of whether “cause” or “ground” can be understood non-contingently. Again, the initial premises must be indubitable, and the only indubitable starting point would have to be that contingent beings are changed by other contingent beings, because that is all anyone ever experiences. And with that starting point, I do not know how you would get to the conclusion that you want.

    X2 must be different from X. If X takes on an accident when it causes something, then it isn't X anymore.

    So, if I paint a red house white, then it is no longer the same house? Again, changing the accidental form does not change the substance itself into something else entirely, but changing the substantial form does cause such a change. So, when you say that a ball breaking a window is not the same ball prior to breaking a window, you are right in that the ball breaking a window has different accidental properties than the ball prior to breaking a window, but you are wrong in that the ball remains the same substance throughout the change.

    Both X and X2 can be modes of an entity-in-time H, but that doesn't solve the problem of X being unable to cause Y. If X is a state at time t1 and X2 is a state at time t2 in the existence of H, then it follows that H can cause Y iff it is X2, and therefore only at t2. H cannot cause Y at t1, but must be changed to X2 at t2 before it can cause Y.

    But H is not changed to X2 at t2. H is H whether as X at t1 or X2 at t2. In other words, H as a substance remains the same substance throughout the causal encounter, but its accidental properties change from t1 at the onset of the causal encounter to t2 at the termination of the causal encounter.

    Let’s back up and look at your earlier claim:

    Causality is only notionally present in any given cause. Category 9 has no real existence in even contingent causes, let alone in God. Category 10 is present in the effect, and 9 is "formally" (read: logically) present in the cause, but this does not entail that category 9 begins to exist in the cause. This means that causes are called such a posteriori in all cases: categories 9 and 10 are different ways of looking at a singular event that takes place within the effect alone.

    Category 9 (C9) is poiein, which is “the production of change in some other object”, and category 10 (C10) is paschein, which is “the reception of change from some other object”. The “singular event” is that the cause gives and the effect receives, which are simply two different ways of describing that “singular event” that basically occurs simultaneously.

    I hope that you agree that in any such event, you have a cause C and an effect E. From what I understand, your contention is that C10 is really in E, but that C9 is logically in C. So, C is not really producing the transition from potency to act in some other object, but rather this is just a projection of our minds that we make after the event occurs. But if C is just producing E in our minds, then what is causing the transition from potency to act in reality? It cannot be that the other object is causing its own transition from potency to act, because that would violate the law of causality. In other words, it cannot be the glass causing itself to break. It must be the ball colliding into the glass producing the transition from potency to break to actually breaking in the glass. But if the transition from potency to act is really caused by neither the cause nor the effect, then you have an uncaused event, which you have argued in the past is logically and metaphysically incoherent.

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  118. So, your account would make the cause not a cause at all, because the cause is, by definition, what produces the change from potency to act in some other object. Instead, you turn the cause into some innocent bystander that is completely inert and does not give anything to another object to produce the change from potency to act, which negates its status as a cause. And if effects do not really require causes at all, but rather somehow do the impossible and produce the transition from potency to act themselves without another agent, then that would fatally undermine the First Way, as well as the entire A-T account of causality and change, I think.

    What does this mean? Unless H's transformation into X2 is uncaused (a contradiction), then it must be caused by another. But then that cause will have to take on category 9, and the X/X2 t1/t2 problem arises again. And this goes all the way back to the Unmoved Mover, who will also have to take on category 9 in order to change anything. It's not enough merely to say that the Unmoved Mover is "fully actual", blah blah blah. Unless it's possible to explain exactly how he can cause anything without himself changing, we're left with a flat contradiction. And, if causes necessarily change when they cause, there's no way to avoid that contradiction.

    I’m not saying that they necessarily change when they cause. Some causes do change during the causal encounter, and other causes, such as God, does not change due to immutability. Certainly, in the realm of composite entia, causes change during any causal encounter, whether due to a change in the cause’s material composition, its amount and kind of energy, its spatio-temporal coordinates, or whatever. And these changes can be substantial, such that the cause changes into a different substance during the causal encounter, or accidental, such that the cause remains the same substance during the causal encounter. When it comes to God’s causality, it is a mystery, because all causality that we understand and experience are those involving mutable causes and effects, and we have no understanding of an immutable cause that changes in absolutely no way whatsoever.

    Also, given the fact that we cannot possibly “explain exactly how” God can do anything, because that would require our knowing his essence, which is impossible, I think that you are setting the bar too high here.

    Your objection has been that causality is incomprehensible unless we can speak about a cause univocally. But it's clear that causality is solely in the moved; all causes are inferred a posteriori. As a result, it's perfectly valid to say that creation was caused without making a univocal affirmation of God. This entails that Pseudo-Dionysian analogy is valid, which makes your objections to everyone else irrelevant. Do you have a response?

    My objection has actually been that if God transcends all ordered hierarchies, as you claimed in an earlier exchange, then God must transcend any system of causality, because causality is an ordered hierarchy involving act > potency, cause > effect, and so on. And if that is true, then we cannot call God a “cause” at all, because “cause” only has meaning within an ordered hierarchy, which God cannot be a part of. The rules of causality only apply within a given domain, and God is beyond that domain, and thus the rules of causality do not apply to God.

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  119. Sobieski:

    Related to that, when St. Thomas says God moves the will, I take it that he means efficiently because finality does not provide the whole explanation. Agency must bring about the end willed, i.e., the movement from potency to act. At least that is the way I see it.

    I don’t think that God moves the will as an efficient cause. From what I recall, Aquinas would view that as a form of coercion that compromises the freedom of the will to choose. I think God moves the will as a final end in that the will acts upon what the intellect presents to it as the good, and God is goodness itself. But when you are talking about God affecting the will via grace, then I think that he changes the will’s form, and thus exerts change formally rather than efficiently. At least, that was how Stump presented the matter in her book on Aquinas.

    I don't know if that helps anything.

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  120. @dguller

    Rank and I were discussing that. He thinks God moves the will via final causality inasmuch as all causality reduces to that, but He does not enter directly into the acts of willing "this" or "that." That's an interesting point from Stump re:grace that I hadn't heard.

    In SCG 3.89, St. Thomas says God moves the will to "this" or "that." So the question is what type of causality is involved? To me, talk of motion or moving would seem to mean efficient causality (e.g., "...This is called the efficient, moving or agent cause, or that whence the principle of motion is." De principiis). Unlike a created agent, God can move the will in accord with its nature and even in certain instances determine it to a particular end albeit without necessity since determination in this instance does not mean necessitation (cf. ST 1-2.10.4). Many people have concerns about this interpretation as it seems to destroy freedom.

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  121. Sobieski,

    As we saw from Aquinas in SCG 1.13, an efficient cause is that which creates a being and/or removes impediments toward an end being achieved. Hence the physician is pulled to act by the end, but the end can't be completed if he is impeded. As he wrote in that passage you quoted:

    "For the end is the cause of that which is efficient, that is, the cause that the efficient is efficient -- health doesn't cause the physician to be a physician: I mean the health that comes to be as the result of the physician's activity -- but it causes the physician to act. The end, consequently, is the cause of efficient causality and makes the efficient cause efficient".

    Final causality is what causes the physician to act in the first place, which means that it is prior to efficient causality. Every efficient cause is traceable to an earlier final cause, which ultimately entails that all causality is a matter of being drawn forward--and this traces back to the internal motive principle of desire for the Unmoved Mover. Final causes give rise to efficient change, which is when one striving entity removes the impediment of another.

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  122. Sobieski:

    Aquinas says:

    “Grace, as a quality, is said to act upon the soul, not after the manner of an efficient cause, but after the manner of a formal cause, as whiteness makes a thing white, and justice, just” (ST I-II.110.2).

    “And because grace is above human nature, it cannot be a substance or a substantial form, but is an accidental form of the soul.” (ST I-II.110.2).

    Since formal causes are incoherent without final causes, to change a formal cause is to change a final cause, and vice versa. So, I think that Rank is correct that God affects the will by changing the formal-final causality of the will, but not via efficient causality, which Aquinas would view as a coercive and violent act that compromises the freedom of the will.

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  123. dguller,

    But it begs the question of whether “cause” or “ground” can be understood non-contingently.

    If every cause is understood from its effects, then it's completely possible for contingent beings to be grounded in the non-contingent.

    So, if I paint a red house white, then it is no longer the same house? Again, changing the accidental form does not change the substance itself into something else entirely, but changing the substantial form does cause such a change.

    It isn't the same house anymore in its totally, but this isn't a substantial change. I'm aware that there's a difference between substantial and accidental change--it just isn't relevant to the point about vicious regresses of category 9.

    But H is not changed to X2 at t2. H is H whether as X at t1 or X2 at t2.

    H is an identity over time, and so it will necessarily be in different states at t1 and t2. H will still be H, since we're talking about a form, but H in its totality will be different. And that's all that's necessary to prove that category 9 can't inhere in a cause.

    I hope that you agree that in any such event, you have a cause C and an effect E. From what I understand, your contention is that C10 is really in E, but that C9 is logically in C. So, C is not really producing the transition from potency to act in some other object, but rather this is just a projection of our minds that we make after the event occurs.

    In one sense, you're correct. But causality occurs through a relation. As Lonergan says, "[C]ausation is simply the relation of dependence in the effect with respect to the cause. This is the Aristotelian position presented in the Physics". As a result, we can't say that effects have no cause at all--just that C9 is a notional extension of C10, and that C10 occurs because of a relation. This means that all causality is reducible to a relation of the moved to the mover.

    Also, given the fact that we cannot possibly “explain exactly how” God can do anything, because that would require our knowing his essence, which is impossible, I think that you are setting the bar too high here.

    I merely meant that it isn't enough to say that God is unaffected by C9. We have to be able to explain why this is, without simultaneously compromising God's ability to generate anything.

    My objection has actually been that if God transcends all ordered hierarchies, as you claimed in an earlier exchange, then God must transcend any system of causality, because causality is an ordered hierarchy involving act > potency, cause > effect, and so on. And if that is true, then we cannot call God a “cause” at all, because “cause” only has meaning within an ordered hierarchy, which God cannot be a part of. The rules of causality only apply within a given domain, and God is beyond that domain, and thus the rules of causality do not apply to God.

    And this is no longer a weighty objection if all causality is a relation of the moved to the mover, coupled with a C10 in the moved and a notional C9 in the mover. This allows God to exist beyond any determining confines, while simultaneously having all things rely on him.

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  124. I really have no idea what Free Will "is" other then my intuitions and experience tell me I have it.

    That I have the real power to freely choose between a or b regardless of wither or not my intellect moves my will to do so or some sort of volunteerism is something I believe I have.

    (Mind you I tend to accept the Intellect moves the Will model)

    I know God causes Our Reality, our natures and our free will to exist and be truly free & I can't for the life of me figure out how that is the case other then I can see no formal contradiction.

    OTOH under a strict materialism I see logically we can't have free will since all our choices are nothing more then random physics and chemistry & there is no real "me" that does the choosing.

    Thus I am indifferent as to who wins a molinist vs Banez debate since I tend to think at some point you bow to mystery.

    Carry on.

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  125. Rank:

    If every cause is understood from its effects, then it's completely possible for contingent beings to be grounded in the non-contingent.

    But that is only if “grounded” already extends beyond contingent into non-contingent, as well, which is precisely what is at issue, and thus the question begging.

    But causality occurs through a relation.

    And the question is whether the causal relationship is bidirectional, meaning that the presence of an effect necessarily implies the simultaneous presence of a cause. You yourself have already stated that any effect must have a ground other than itself, and that ground just is the cause. Thus, to be a cause is to produce an effect, and to be an effect is to be caused by something else. There is a bidirectionality between the two such that the presence of one necessarily implies the presence of the other. After all, C9 and C10 are just different aspects of a single event, i.e. the transition from potency to act of a substance, and thus you have the presence of C9 iff you have the presence of C10.

    As Lonergan says, "[C]ausation is simply the relation of dependence in the effect with respect to the cause. This is the Aristotelian position presented in the Physics".

    Right, because there would be no transition of potency to act in substance Y at all unless there was substance X in act to produce that transition in the first place. The transition from potency to act in Y cannot occur without X in act, but X in act can occur without the transition from potency to act in Y. Thus, the dependence relationship in which X in act is considered ontologically prior to the transition of potency to act in Y.

    As a result, we can't say that effects have no cause at all--just that C9 is a notional extension of C10, and that C10 occurs because of a relation. This means that all causality is reducible to a relation of the moved to the mover.

    I don’t see this at all, but I might be missing something. X in act must give something to Y in order to produce the transition from potency to act in Y, and this occurs simultaneously such that X’s giving occurs at the same time as Y’s receiving (i.e. transition from potency to act). Your claim, insofar as I understand it, is that X’s giving is not real at all, but only a projection of the mind from the transition from potency to act in Y, which is the only real occurrence. But then you have real receiving, but only imaginary giving, which makes no sense. How can Y receive something, but X give nothing? And if X isn’t really giving anything to Y to cause the transition from potency to act, then what is the point of the Scholastic principle that a cause cannot give what it does not already have? In reality, the cause gives nothing at all.

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  126. And this is no longer a weighty objection if all causality is a relation of the moved to the mover, coupled with a C10 in the moved and a notional C9 in the mover. This allows God to exist beyond any determining confines, while simultaneously having all things rely on him.

    First, even your own construal of your position negates itself. You write that “all causality is a relation of the moved to the mover” (emphasis mine), which ultimately comes down to a relation of the effect to the cause. Unless you want to say that the cause does not actually cause the effect, then to say that the effect is related to the cause means that the cause is related to the effect, because there would be no effect without the cause, and where there is an effect, there must be a cause of that effect. After all, they are two different aspects of a single event, both of which are essential and necessary.

    Second, if you are correct, then Aquinas is wrong in that the cause must be superior to the effect. In fact, the effect is real and the cause is imaginary, and the real must be superior to the imaginary. But assuming that Aquinas was right, then cause-and-effect still exist in an ordered hierarchy in which the cause is superior to the effect, and act is superior to potency. And since God cannot be described according to the terms of an ordered hierarchy, then he cannot be described according to the terms of causality at all, and without the Neoplatonic metaphysics of efficient causality as participation, which is hierarchical to its core, there is simply no way to know anything about God from creation, because one would be making a category error.

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  127. But that is only if “grounded” already extends beyond contingent into non-contingent, as well, which is precisely what is at issue, and thus the question begging.

    Non-contingent is a negation--it isn't a positive label. I'm just saying that, if all things are contingent, then nothing exists now. Therefore, there is more than the contingent. What does this mean? Something non-contingent, which is to say not anything that we know. This is logically entailed by the existence of contingent (= possibly not existent) beings. There's no begged question here. If there is nothing beyond the contingent on which the contingent relies, then nothing exists now.

    Thus, to be a cause is to produce an effect, and to be an effect is to be caused by something else. There is a bidirectionality between the two such that the presence of one necessarily implies the presence of the other. After all, C9 and C10 are just different aspects of a single event, i.e. the transition from potency to act of a substance, and thus you have the presence of C9 iff you have the presence of C10.

    But C9 is a being of reason. You're just handwaving. We deduce cause and effect from the existence of change, which occurs solely in that which changes. The name "effect" is given to those things which change. Causes are named from the effects that occur when a being in potency is related to a being in act. You can talk about "bidirectional" relationships all you want, but it's irrelevant to the argument. You're smuggling in malformed modern conceptions of causality to argue against Aristotle and Aquinas.

    Right, because there would be no transition of potency to act in substance Y at all unless there was substance X in act to produce that transition in the first place.

    Causes produce nothing in the sense you're using that word. Even creation from nothing, as Aquinas says, is merely a "beginning of existence". We say that God creates because of a posteriori phenomena that must by necessity be related to him.

    X in act must give something to Y in order to produce the transition from potency to act in Y, and this occurs simultaneously such that X’s giving occurs at the same time as Y’s receiving (i.e. transition from potency to act).

    Giving is a matter of a phenomenon in X recurring in Y via Y's relation of dependence on X. You keep focusing on C9 and C10 when the real meat of the debate is in the relation.

    First, even your own construal of your position negates itself. You write that “all causality is a relation of the moved to the mover” (emphasis mine), which ultimately comes down to a relation of the effect to the cause.

    I was writing in shorthand. If you want the long-form description, then here it is. All causality is a relation of dependence from a contingent being (i.e. a being that might not have existed) to some higher entity; and the contingent being changes by imitating via this relation of dependence the higher entity to which it is related. We call these the moved and the mover, for short.

    Second, if you are correct, then Aquinas is wrong in that the cause must be superior to the effect.

    The cause must be superior because it must possess whatever the effect does not possess. A relation of dependence is no good unless the effect has something actual to imitate.

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  128. @dguller

    There are various types of grace. One type is in the order of efficient causality (i.e., movements of soul), and another is in the order of formal causality (i.e., qualities of soul). In the same Summa article you cited, St. Thomas says man is aided by God's gratuitous will in two ways: "first, inasmuch as man's soul is moved by God to know or will or do something, and in this way the gratuitous effect in man is not a quality, but a movement of the soul; for 'motion is the act of the mover in the moved.'" Second, "man is helped by God's gratuitous will, inasmuch as a habitual gift is infused by God into the soul."

    I agree that formal causes are incoherent without final causes, but it seems to me they are also incoherent without agent causes as well because it is the agent acting for an end that brings the form about (i.e., moves something in potency to a form/end to have that form/end in act). I think this is true in the case of the will. The will must move to determine itself toward some end. While the end is the reason or explanation of the movement, agency is required for the will to actually move from potency to act. St. Thomas says this movement is ultimately derived from God's action:

    "There must be a cause for the fact that a person understands, deliberates, chooses, and wills, for every new event must have some cause. But, if its cause is another act of deliberation, and another act of will preceding it, then, since one cannot go on to infinity in these acts, one must reach something that is first. Now, a first of this type must be something that is better than reason. But nothing is better than intellect and reason except God. Therefore, God is the first principle of our acts of counsel and of will." (SCG 3.89).

    Rank holds that God's being the Supreme Good is sufficient to explain said movements of the will in the orders of nature and grace apart from His agency because in general, the end is the "cause of causes," the "pull" or "draw" of which accounts for the change. I think God's agency has to be involved as well, but such agency since it is from the Creator and not the creature is unique in that it doesn't necessitate or destroy freedom of the will:

    "The only way in which an external agent moves a thing naturally is by causing an intrinsic principle of motion within the movable thing. Thus, a generating agent, which gives the form of weight to a heavy generated body, moves it downward in a natural way. No other extrinsic being can move a natural body without violence, except perhaps accidentally, by removing an impediment, and this uses a natural motion, or action, rather than causes it. So, the only agent that can cause a movement of the will, without violence, is that which causes an intrinsic principle of this movement, and such a principle is the very power of the will. Now, this agent is God, Who alone creates a soul, as we showed in Book Two. Therefore, God alone can move the will in the fashion of an agent, without violence. Hence it is said in Proverbs (21:1): 'The heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord; wherever He wishes, He turns it.' And again in Philippians (2:13): 'It is God Who works in us, both to will and to accomplish, according to His good will.'" (SCG 3.88)

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  129. dguller reckons: “Our knowledge of things does not begin with perfection, but rather with imperfection.”

    dguller also writes: “As you say, “we start with finite things”. Finite things are not perfect, but rather are imperfect, and so if we start with finite things that are imperfect, then we must start with imperfection.”

    Nothingness does not exist – it is the negation of being. Darkness does not exist – it is the absence of light. Evil does not exist – it is the want of some good. Likewise there is no such thing as imperfection. Imperfection just is perfection limited in some way. Literally imperfection is a lack of completeness, something unfinished.

    So, yes, we start with finite being. But that gives us, from the start, perfection and limit.

    This is line 1, page 1 stuff.

    Once you concede this (as you must to stay true to your claim of taking on the scholastics on their own ground), then you will see that what I say about the negation of a negation follows, and you have not been “conceiving of God in a wholly negative fashion,” and thus have been contradicting yourself by using your knowledge of God’s Infinitude and Simplicity to argue as you have.

    So where did you go wrong?

    Once again you have erred by insisting that your formulas for identity, difference, and similarity are the only game in town. I can only suggest you read (or re-read) the general scholastic teaching on the doctrine of distinction, paying careful attention to the great difficulty in discriminating between virtual distinctions – especially perfect virtual distinctions – and real distinctions.

    For, where you see a partial identity and a partial difference in analogates, the scholastic (I put it to you) understands that logical or virtual distinctions within each – introduced by our thought, or the result of our thought – allow a logical identity between these logical or virtual parts despite the real difference between analogates. This is the basis of similarity in things, and in no way corresponds to univocal or a partial real identity.

    I accused you of idealism because your formulas confound the real and logical orders. But let’s forget labels – you’ve been shown to be contradicting yourself, and the formulas pumping blood around your argument clearly don't heed the careful, crucial distinctions that the Scholastics made. What’s really left of your attack on Thomas’s doctrine of analogy but dogmatic assertion that your formulas are exclusively right?

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  130. dguller wrote: “You are looking at the conclusion at the end and are reading it into the beginning, which, on the one hand, makes perfect sense, because the conclusion was virtually present in the beginning, but on the other hand is inappropriate, because the conclusion was not actually present in the beginning, and we are talking about our actual thoughts and knowledge, not virtual or potential knowledge.” (emphasis his)

    Yeah, no. Like nothingness, darkness, and evil, imperfection is a figment of the intellect. And our actual thoughts about the non-entity “imperfection” consist of perfection and limit. It bears repeating until you concede this.

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  131. Jack:

    Nothingness does not exist – it is the negation of being. Darkness does not exist – it is the absence of light. Evil does not exist – it is the want of some good. Likewise there is no such thing as imperfection. Imperfection just is perfection limited in some way. Literally imperfection is a lack of completeness, something unfinished.

    We are talking about our knowledge here, not ontology. We do not start with the knowledge of the metaphysical truth that evil as such does not exist. That requires philosophical demonstration to demonstrate that metaphysical truth. After the demonstration, you have the knowledge. Perhaps in your social circles, people innately and intuitively know that the entities that they interact with around them are incomplete and limited perfections, but I doubt it. And even after that demonstration, do they really understand perfection? Wouldn’t that require one to understand God himself as perfection itself?

    For, where you see a partial identity and a partial difference in analogates, the scholastic (I put it to you) understands that logical or virtual distinctions within each – introduced by our thought, or the result of our thought – allow a logical identity between these logical or virtual parts despite the real difference between analogates. This is the basis of similarity in things, and in no way corresponds to univocal or a partial real identity.

    Why does univocity have to be partial real identity? What exactly is the relationship between the two? A partial (logical or virtual or real) identity and a partial (real) difference is still a kind of partial identity and partial difference, and thus well within my account of similarity.

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  132. dguller:

    We are talking about our knowledge here, not ontology. We do not start with the knowledge of the metaphysical truth that evil as such does not exist.

    So I take it your response to DavidM (“I’m thinking of a square circle”) wasn’t trying to say anything about affirmations, or positive conceptions, about things that don’t exist? The more you protest, the more you’re at war with yourself. Whatever.

    No, we don’t start with the metaphysical truth that evil doesn’t exist. We do not start with imperfection either. We start with finite being and that is not imperfection; rather it is, as we distinguish from the start, perfection and limit.

    Look, you’re the one who insists he has been conceiving of God in a wholly negative way, so you need finite being to be imperfection. But the relevant part of my statement isn’t the metaphysical truth of, say, darkness’s nonexistence. The relevant part is simply that imperfection is not finite being in the same way that darkness isn’t finite being - they’re both negations of finite being.

    Like nothingness, darkness, and evil, imperfection is a figment of the intellect. And our actual thoughts about finite being consist of perfection and limit. It bears repeating until you concede this.

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  133. Jack:

    So I take it your response to DavidM (“I’m thinking of a square circle”) wasn’t trying to say anything about affirmations, or positive conceptions, about things that don’t exist?

    My point was that saying that not-p does not mean that p necessarily has a meaningful positive content. If p is incoherent nonsense, then p cannot have meaningful positive content, even though the negation of p is true, but only because for p to be true, p would have to first be meaningful, and if p is not meaningful, then p cannot be true at all.

    No, we don’t start with the metaphysical truth that evil doesn’t exist. We do not start with imperfection either. We start with finite being and that is not imperfection; rather it is, as we distinguish from the start, perfection and limit.

    I see your point. Aquinas writes that “a thing is perfect in proportion to its state of actuality, because we call that perfect which lacks nothing of the mode of its perfection” (ST 1.4.1). If actuality is associated with perfection, then the absence of actuality would have to be associated with imperfection. And the absence in question would have to be due to the limitation placed upon the perfection of actuality.

    Like nothingness, darkness, and evil, imperfection is a figment of the intellect. And our actual thoughts about finite being consist of perfection and limit. It bears repeating until you concede this.

    But then how does this not contradict Aquinas’ numerous sayings that we can only know what God is not, because we are incapable of knowing his essence? To know God in a positive way would require that God be received by our intellect, which is metaphysically impossible. So, if God cannot be received by our intellect, then we cannot know God at all, and that would support Aquinas’ endorsement of a negative theology.

    And even if we start with perfection and limitation, how does this lead to the conclusion that we have positive knowledge of God? Whatever positive content we have in our minds is necessarily infinitely inadequate to encompass God, and thus must be negated to preserve his transcendence. That is what even Aquinas says that we must negate our very mode of signification when talking about God, because “no name can be applied to God according to its mode of signification” (ST 1.13.12), because all names have “a mode of signification which belongs to creatures” (ST 1.13.6).

    As far as I can tell, to negate a mode of signification can only result in one of three possible scenarios:

    (1) Another creaturely mode of signification
    (2) A divine mode of signification
    (3) No mode of signification at all

    (1) would preserve the same problems, and thus is no solution. (2) is metaphysically impossible. (3) makes thought and language impossible, meaning that it would compromise any thought and language about anything, including God.

    Any thoughts?

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  134. Rank:

    I have to do a bit of reading, and my family has a busy weekend. I'll hopefully post a reply to your intriguing ideas soon. Just be patient. I'm on it!

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  135. Rank:

    But C9 is a being of reason. You're just handwaving. We deduce cause and effect from the existence of change, which occurs solely in that which changes. The name "effect" is given to those things which change. Causes are named from the effects that occur when a being in potency is related to a being in act. You can talk about "bidirectional" relationships all you want, but it's irrelevant to the argument. You're smuggling in malformed modern conceptions of causality to argue against Aristotle and Aquinas.

    I am not “handwaving” or “smuggling” anything.

    First, to say that the cause is a “being of reason”, i.e. an ens rationis, means that it is distinct from a real being, i.e. an ens reale. So, you are saying that the cause is not a real being at all, but just a byproduct of the human mind projecting upon reality a particular conceptual framework.

    Second, if there is a single event, i.e. the transition from potency to act in ens Y, then by metaphysical principles, there must be an ens X in act that caused that transition from potency to act in ens Y. X is not an ens rationis, but an ens reale. X must really and actually exist in order to be a cause, and cannot be an ens rationis, or else it would only be in the human mind and not in reality.

    Third, I think that you are confusing the fact that we deduce the presence of X from the transition from potency to act in Y with the necessity that X must therefore be a being of reason. That’s just wrong. After all, we deduce the existence of God, but do not thereby conclude that God is a being of reason. In other words, just because we just rational deduction to conclude the existence of X does not necessarily mean that X is a being of reason.

    Causes produce nothing in the sense you're using that word. Even creation from nothing, as Aquinas says, is merely a "beginning of existence". We say that God creates because of a posteriori phenomena that must by necessity be related to him.

    I’m focusing upon one kind of change, i.e. from potency to act, because it is easier to understand due to its familiarity. Creation ex nihilo is too conceptually difficult, and so let’s first see how your account works for easy cases before moving on to harder ones.

    Giving is a matter of a phenomenon in X recurring in Y via Y's relation of dependence on X. You keep focusing on C9 and C10 when the real meat of the debate is in the relation.

    This is all just semantics, no? The bottom line is whether you want to call it a “relation of dependence”, a “causal relationship”, or “giving”, there is something in X that is received by Y that results in the transition from potency to act in Y, and without that “something” that is given by X and received by Y, there would be no transition from potency to act in Y, and that is why Y is dependent upon X. In other words, the causal relationship is the relation of dependence, which is the giving and receiving of something from X to Y that results in the transition from potency to act in Y.

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  136. All causality is a relation of dependence from a contingent being (i.e. a being that might not have existed) to some higher entity; and the contingent being changes by imitating via this relation of dependence the higher entity to which it is related. We call these the moved and the mover, for short.

    Exactly. The “relation is dependence” is causality, because the effect (i.e. the transition from potency to act in Y) depends upon the presence of X to occur. And X is not just some innocent bystander that does not contribute anything real to Y to facilitate that transition, which is what you seem to imply when saying that Y imitates X without X actually doing anything at all, kind of like X being the final cause of Y and pulling Y in the direction of actualizing its potencies. In that case, you are collapsing the efficient cause into the final cause, which is invalid, because the final cause is just the end that cannot be actualized without the efficient cause to cause that very actualization to occur. Otherwise, you don’t actually need the efficient cause at all. The final cause should be sufficient.

    The cause must be superior because it must possess whatever the effect does not possess.

    But on your account, act is not superior to potency, because the transition from potency to act can occur without anything really actual facilitating the transition at all.

    A relation of dependence is no good unless the effect has something actual to imitate.

    So, the efficient cause is just a model for the effect to imitate? It does not actually give anything to the effect? Or, perhaps what it gives is just something for the effect to aspire towards? But again, that would collapse the efficient cause into a final cause. After all, Y has a final cause, and X does not give another final cause, but rather helps Y actualize its final cause by causing the transition from a potential final cause to an actual final cause. Your account would make this process impossible to understand, because the efficient cause literally does nothing in reality, but only in our minds.

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  137. Second, if there is a single event, i.e. the transition from potency to act in ens Y, then by metaphysical principles, there must be an ens X in act that caused that transition from potency to act in ens Y.

    Change is prior to cause and effect. Cause and effect are posited to explain change--not the other way around. You, once again, are smuggling in modern terminology. Aquinas and Aristotle are explaining change in a way that does not involve mechanistic cause and effect, even though their solution does contain what might be called causes and effects.

    Third, I think that you are confusing the fact that we deduce the presence of X from the transition from potency to act in Y with the necessity that X must therefore be a being of reason. That’s just wrong. After all, we deduce the existence of God, but do not thereby conclude that God is a being of reason.

    I'm not confusing anything. This is the position that Aquinas and Aristotle held. Here--just read it: http://www.ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pdf/3/3.3/3.3.3.pdf.

    The bottom line is whether you want to call it a “relation of dependence”, a “causal relationship”, or “giving”, there is something in X that is received by Y that results in the transition from potency to act in Y, and without that “something” that is given by X and received by Y, there would be no transition from potency to act in Y, and that is why Y is dependent upon X. In other words, the causal relationship is the relation of dependence, which is the giving and receiving of something from X to Y that results in the transition from potency to act in Y.

    Once again you're smuggling in mechanism. What does "giving" mean? What does "receiving" mean? Does it mean that the potency is drawn into actuality by being related to another being in act? (Aristotle's and Aquinas's position.) Or does it mean that the being in act rams into the being in potency and gives it part of itself?

    The “relation is dependence” is causality, because the effect (i.e. the transition from potency to act in Y) depends upon the presence of X to occur. And X is not just some innocent bystander that does not contribute anything real to Y to facilitate that transition, which is what you seem to imply when saying that Y imitates X without X actually doing anything at all, kind of like X being the final cause of Y and pulling Y in the direction of actualizing its potencies.

    That's what is happening, so I'm not sure what your objection is.

    In that case, you are collapsing the efficient cause into the final cause, which is invalid, because the final cause is just the end that cannot be actualized without the efficient cause to cause that very actualization to occur. Otherwise, you don’t actually need the efficient cause at all. The final cause should be sufficient.

    There are no efficient causes as you're using that term, which is to say mechanistically. There are only final causes that bring out other final causes. This is what we call efficient causality. One being's efficient cause is just another being's final cause.

    Change is when something in potency is drawn into actuality by a being in act, just as the Unmoved Mover draws all things toward itself. The presence of the being in act draws potential being into actual being--that's it.

    And it's obvious that one being's final cause cannot be sufficient of itself to bring about change. First, a being's final cause must begin to exist, which means that generation is prior to a being's final cause. (Of course, generation is the act of a prior final cause, and so on.) Second, final causes are almost always impeded in some way. And this means that a final cause relies on another final cause (now called an efficient cause) to remove its impediments. See the example of the sun, the iceberg and the Greek god that I gave Sobieski. It's final causes all the way down.

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  138. But on your account, act is not superior to potency, because the transition from potency to act can occur without anything really actual facilitating the transition at all.

    This is blatantly false. How could something in potency change to act without the presence of a second entity in act to pull it forward? You're talking about spontaneous change, here.

    So, the efficient cause is just a model for the effect to imitate? It does not actually give anything to the effect? Or, perhaps what it gives is just something for the effect to aspire towards?

    It doesn't give anything in the sense of taking part of itself and placing it in another. But it does communicate itself in that the relation of dependence allows the being in potency to imitate a form contained by the being in act. So, for example, hotness in the sun is imitated by the iceberg, which causes the iceberg to melt.

    But again, that would collapse the efficient cause into a final cause. After all, Y has a final cause, and X does not give another final cause, but rather helps Y actualize its final cause by causing the transition from a potential final cause to an actual final cause.

    Every Y has a final cause toward an almost limitless number of possibilities. X actualizes one of these by being present as a model for Y. Obviously, X itself has final causes that determine which final causes it may actualize. Let's say X is the sun and Y is the iceberg.

    Material cause: the iceberg, which may be drawn into the act of melting.
    Efficient cause: the sun, whose presence does the drawing.
    Formal cause: the accidental form of hotness which is actual in the sun and potential in the iceberg.
    Final cause: the melting of the iceberg.

    Of course, we have to remember that both efficient and material causes have final causes. Both are ultimately substances, which means that they are in act to some degree. The sun couldn't draw the iceberg into melting if it didn't have a final cause in that direction, and the iceberg couldn't melt if it didn't have a final cause in that direction.

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  139. Rank:

    I'll try to reply in more detail to your last series of points. I'm backed up with my reading, and family obligations being what they are, that may take some time, especially given the little I've read of the Lonergan paper, which is very interesting, and requires deep thought on my part.

    However, I just wanted to make the point that I’m not too sure what any of this has to do with my argument. Even if you want to reframe matters from causality to dependence, to say that Y is dependent upon X puts X and Y in an ordered hierarchy in which Y is inferior to X, and thus X is superior to Y, because “inferior” only acquires meaning from within an ordered hierarchy by virtue of being a relational term.

    The question is whether this relationship in which Y depends upon X is real or a projection of our minds. You seem to imply that it is just a projection of our minds, and not actually occurring in reality. I don't see how that doesn't completely undermine using this principle to justify God's real existence, and not just as a projection of our minds that we impose upon reality to put it in some kind of explanatory framework.

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  140. dguller,

    That's fine. Take all the time you need.

    The relation between Y and X is a real relation that exists within Y. Also, the terms "superior" and "inferior" get their meaning from a real inferiority in Y and an analogical superiority in X. If Y relies on X, then language of inferiority and superiority is automatically entailed.

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  141. Rank:

    The relation between Y and X is a real relation that exists within Y.

    I don’t understand. X and Y are independently existing substances. How can a relation between X and Y only really exist within Y? The relation would have to exist between X and Y in order to be a relation at all. It would be like saying that X is taller than Y, but that tallness only really exists within Y.

    Also, the terms "superior" and "inferior" get their meaning from a real inferiority in Y and an analogical superiority in X. If Y relies on X, then language of inferiority and superiority is automatically entailed.

    First, the problem is that superiority and inferiority only make sense within an ordered hierarchy relative to a common standard. For example, John is superior to Jack in terms of his athletic ability. In that situation, the common standard is “athletic ability”, and because John is a better athlete, he is superior to Jack in that particular respect. So, to say that Y is inferior necessarily implies that Y is inferior to X according to a common standard. Otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense. It would be like saying that John is taller while denying that John is taller than anything else relative to their respective heights.

    Second, to say that Y is really inferior to X must mean that X is really superior to Y. Why? Because superiority and inferiority must be relative to a common standard. If X is inferior according to a standard of reality and Y is superior according to a standard of analogy, then you are not really comparing the two at all, and they do not exist in a relationship. In order for there to be a relationship, there must be a commonality between them that they share or participate in according to different degrees.

    Third, if dependence necessarily entails an ordered hierarchy, then dependence does not save your position from my objection, because if dependence is an ordered hierarchy, then God must transcend it, and thus creation cannot be dependent upon God, because that would put God into an ordered hierarchy of dependence in which God is superior to creation and creation is inferior to God, which is impossible.

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  142. I don’t understand. X and Y are independently existing substances. How can a relation between X and Y only really exist within Y? The relation would have to exist between X and Y in order to be a relation at all. It would be like saying that X is taller than Y, but that tallness only really exists within Y.

    I find relations very difficult to understand, too. Aquinas based some of his more complicated formulations of relation on the work of the Muslim Aristotelians, whose work I have yet to read--so I don't have an answer for you on this point. I just know that relation cannot begin to exist within a cause without the vicious regress problem rearing its head again.

    First, the problem is that superiority and inferiority only make sense within an ordered hierarchy relative to a common standard.

    God is the standard of all standards, and so we're always already in a kind of hierarchy with him, even though he can't be said to be in a hierarchy with us.

    Second, to say that Y is really inferior to X must mean that X is really superior to Y. Why? Because superiority and inferiority must be relative to a common standard.

    This simply begs the question. If X is in every way more complete than Y, then Y is inferior to X. And things are more complete when they fall into less binary oppositions--i.e. form/matter, being/non-being, essence/existence. Hence, if X falls into less binary oppositions than Y, then Y is inferior to X. Angels are superior to humans because they have no matter, and because their knowledge is not discursive (i.e. reliant on the parsing of binary oppositions). This is not a matter of a common standard, because the idea of a common standard is a metaphysical one that relies on binary oppositions.

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  143. After reading Kozinski's article, I cannot avoid feeling that he is complaining about NL theorist's accounts because they are so incomplete - but fails to recognize the reason they are incomplete is that their interlocutors never let them finish a sentence, much less an argument. It's like listening to the Supreme Court arguments: the Chief Justice invites the attorney to start his argument, but all of the justices have already read the arguments in detail, and they have all formed specific questions on specific points. So, after the attorney gets about 2 sentences into his 200-page dissertation, Kennedy or Kagan interrupts to ask about something on page 5. Half an hour later, after jumping around from page 5 to 90, back to 36, and on 4 wild goose tangents cooked up by the justices, the attorney "wraps up" in a very unsatisfactory way. If an observer were to be unaware that this oral argument was not the ONLY basis for the attorney's position, he would rightly walk away thinking the attorney never even came close to proving his thesis, never even came close to presenting a real case for it.

    In NL discussions, especially involving Gnu Atheists, (for example, though not limited to them), the objectors spend so much time interfering with the presentation of a complete argument that they never, ever, allow the NL theorist to get to the later 50 pages of the presentation, the parts where they bring the argument around to including tradition, historical practice, practical reason, etc. Kozinski, likewise, is arguing a straw man.

    Either that, or his premise is completely wrong. He uses "theology" interchangeably with "theology based on direct revelation by God." But NL theory has always included within its domain the impact of natural theology, the body of truth of what we can know of God through nature herself, without considering Revelation. If you re-read his arguments allowing his use of the word "theology" to encompass both revealed theology and natural theology, I think you conclude that it just doesn't wash, not at all - the points end up either being untrue, or being not in the least opposed to NL properly speaking.

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  144. Apparently there are two Thaddeus Kozinskis. See the comment thread here: http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/12/toward-a-sensible-discussion-of-empire/peter-j-leithart

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  145. Sancrucensis,

    I don't know what the exchange you linked to was all about, but I know for a fact that the Thaddeus Kozinski who posted here (and who has now removed almost all of his comments) was the real guy.

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  146. guller wrote: "Your point is that any denial of X necessarily implies knowledge of X, and thus my denial of knowledge of God necessarily implies first having knowledge of God in order to subsequently deny that knowledge. Clearly, it is not always the case that denying the validity of X necessarily means that X is a meaningful proposition to begin with. It could be incoherent, which is why it must be denied in the first place."

    No, that's not it at all. Try again.

    (I hope you'll forgive my curtness - I'm not so fond of long question-begging rambles, full of rank sophistry and whatnot.)

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  147. Let me give you a hint, guller. Here's your supposedly analogous argument:
    1. Square circles don’t exist
    2. I know that square circles don’t exist
    3. I have no positive conception of square circles
    4. If I had a thought about square circles, then 1, 2 and 3 would be false
    5. My affirmation of 1, 2 and 3 imply that I am thinking of square circles
    6. Therefore, 1, 2 and 3 are false

    First of all, 3 does not follow from 1, as in the original argument. Secondly, 4 is obviously false, unlike in the original argument.

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  148. Not that I should need to do this, but because of certain slanderous attacks on my person on this website combox, I would like to make a public statement.

    I, of course, and again, this should go without saying based upon my life, family, writings, and good reputation with those who know me, my life, and my work, reject all forms of antisemitism as a grave sin, especially the willful and malicious denial of the evident historical record of premeditated, systematic violence against Jews on account of their race. It is only because of a certain person's slanderous and unprovoked attack on me that I have to state the obvious.

    Let me also say that I wholeheartedly reject "conspiracy theories," if this means those theories that are the result of imposing one's psychological problems and delusions and unexamined prejudices onto reality and calling what such a superimposition looks like to you and other likeminded nuts, the truth. These are the real "holocaust deniers," and I repudiate this as a betrayal of Truth and as the gravest of intellectual sins. I have spent my whole professional career as a philosopher attacking such theories.

    I do not, however, reject any honest inquiry into the details and overall truth of any official, publicly authorized narrative, no mater how "sacred" to governments, mainstream media, and the "beast" (Plato's term) of uninformed public opinion, and the sheepleish "academic community"--inquiries that are good-willed, use well vetted evidence and logic, and are motivated by the desire for truth, love of the good and of neighbor, and the exposing of propaganda.

    Those who reject such inquiry and slander those who defend or participate in it are themselves betrayers of Truth and offensive to God.

    This should also go without saying, but defending manifestly immoral behaviors and justifications of those behaviors, such as NAMBLA and neo-Nazi groups, is disgusting and not worthy of rational debate. Censorship, condemnation, ridicule, and perhaps prison are alone worthy of such subverters of the common good and enemies of truth.

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