Monday, January 21, 2013

Schliesser on the Evolutionary Argument against Naturalism


I commented recently on the remarks about Thomas Nagel’s Mind and Cosmos made by Eric Schliesser over at the New APPS blog.  Schliesser has now posted an interesting set of objections to Alvin Plantinga’s “Evolutionary Argument against Naturalism” (EAAN), which features in Nagel’s book.  Schliesser’s latest comments illustrate, I think, how very far one must move away from what Wilfred Sellars called the “manifest image” in order to try to respond to the most powerful objections to naturalism -- and how the result threatens naturalism with incoherence (as it does with Alex Rosenberg’s more extreme position).

The EAAN

First let me summarize Plantinga’s EAAN, which I think does pose a powerful challenge to naturalism, though I don’t think it shows quite what Plantinga thinks it does.  (Plantinga’s most recent statement and defense of the argument can be found in Where the Conflict Really Lies, which I recently reviewed for First Things.)

The EAAN begins by noting that what natural selection favors is behavior that is conducive to reproductive success.  Such behavior might be associated with true beliefs, but it might not be; it is certainly possible that adaptive behavior could be associated instead with beliefs that happen to be false.  In that case, though, there is nothing about natural selection per se that could guarantee that our cognitive faculties reliably produce true beliefs.  A given individual belief would have about a 50-50 chance of being true.  And the probability that the preponderance of true beliefs over false ones would be great enough to make our cognitive faculties reliable is very small indeed.

Now if evolution is only part of the story of the origin of our cognitive faculties, this is not necessarily a problem.  For example, if there is a God who ensures that the neurological processes generated by natural selection are generally correlated with true beliefs, then our cognitive faculties will be reliable.  But suppose that, as naturalism claims, there isn’t more to the story.  Then for all we know, our cognitive faculties are not reliable.  They may be reliable, but we will have no reason to believe that they are, and good reason to believe that they are not.  Now that means that we also have good reason to doubt the beliefs that are generated by those faculties.  For the naturalist, that will include belief in naturalism itself.  Naturalism, then, when conjoined with evolution, is self-defeating.  Evolution, concludes Plantinga, is thus better interpreted within a non-naturalistic framework.  

I think the basic thrust of this argument is correct, though I prefer the related argument that generally goes under the name of “the argument from reason” and has been defended in different versions by Karl Popper, Victor Reppert and William Hasker, and which I endorsed in Philosophy of Mind and The Last Superstition.  For one thing, I don’t think the basic point of the argument has anything to do with weighing probabilities, so that Plantinga’s tendency to state the argument in probabilistic terms needlessly muddies the waters somewhat.  The key point is rather that the logical relations that hold between thoughts cannot in principle be reduced to, supervenient upon, or in any way explained in terms of relations of efficient causality between material elements.  See the post on Popper just linked to for a summary of the argument as I would state it.

I also think that it is a mistake to suppose that the EAAN gives direct support to theism, specifically -- as opposed, say, to a non-theistic teleological view of the world (such as Nagel puts forward in Mind and Cosmos).  In Where the Conflict Really Lies, Plantinga acknowledges (rightly, in my view) that design inferences of the sort associated with William Paley and “Intelligent Design” theory do not constitute strong arguments for theism.  But he suggests reinterpreting the tendency to see design in complex biological phenomena as a kind of “perception” rather than an inference or argument.  Just as you can perceive that someone is angry from the expression on his face, so too, Plantinga suggests, can you perceive that an organ was designed from the order it exhibits.  And just as the former perceptual belief is rational despite its typically not involving an inference or argument, so too is the latter rational even if it does not involve an inference or argument.

There’s a lot that could be said about this, but the most important thing to say is that it is simply too quick.  As any Aristotelian can tell you, it is one thing to attribute a function to something, but quite another to attribute design to it.  That roots have the function of anchoring a plant to the ground and taking in nutrients may well be something we just perceive on close examination.  But that is precisely because having such functions is of the nature of roots -- something built into them, as it were.  In that respect they are very different from an artifact like a watch, whose metallic parts do not have a time-telling function built into them by nature.  That function has to be imposed on them from outside, which is why a watch requires a designer.  But precisely because natural objects are not artifacts, to perceive functionality or order in them is not ipso facto to perceive design.  And that means that while Plantinga’s EAAN and defense of the rationality of “perceiving” functionality in nature strike a blow against the naturalist’s dogmatic rejection of teleology, they do not by themselves constitute reasons to embrace theism, specifically.  (For more on the distinction between function and design, see this post, this post, this article, and other earlier posts dealing with the difference between an Aristotelian-Thomistic conception of nature and “Intelligent Design” theory.)

That is not to say that a divine intellect is not ultimately responsible for the order of things.  But for the Aristotelian (and for Thomists, who build on an Aristotelian foundation) that is a claim which certainly does require an argument, and an argument which does not conflate function and design, as too many Christian apologists have done at least since the time of William Paley, but which Aquinas’s Fifth Way -- though often mistakenly assimilated to Paley’s argument -- does not.  (I’ve defended the Fifth Way in several places, including in Aquinas.)

The bottom line is that what the EAAN/”argument from reason” shows, in my view, is that we cannot coherently trust our cognitive faculties unless we suppose that they are directed toward the attainment of truth as their telos or end.  But this does not by itself entail any extrinsic, artifact-like teleology of the Paleyan sort.  One could opt instead for an immanent teleology of the Aristotelian sort (and then try to resist a Fifth Way-style argument to the effect that this sort of teleology too ultimately requires a divine cause).  This is, in effect, Nagel’s strategy.

Schliesser’s response to the EAAN

Let’s turn now to Schliesser’s remarks.  Do read his entire post (which, never fear, isn’t as verbose as mine often are) in case I have missed any important elements of the context in interpreting the passages I’ll be quoting from it.  Schliesser begins as follows:

[L]et's grant -- for the sake of argument -- the claim [made by Nagel, following Plantinga] that "Mechanisms of belief formation that have selective advantage in the everyday struggle for existence do not warrant our confidence in the construction of theoretical accounts of the world as a whole."  What follows from this?

My quick and dirty answer is: nothing. For the crucial parts of science really do not rely on such mechanisms of belief formation.  Much of scientific reason is or can be performed by machines; as I have argued before, ordinary cognition, perception, and locution does not really matter epistemically in the sciences. 

End quote.  If I understand him correctly, what Schliesser is saying here is that even if the EAAN casts doubt on the reliability of our cognitive faculties (given naturalism), that is irrelevant to the question of whether science is reliable, for what is crucial to science can be done by machines, and the EAAN does not cast doubt on their reliability.  He also writes:

[Nagel] thinks that somehow there are "norms of thought which, if we follow them, will tend to lead us toward the correct answers" to "factual and practical" questions… Now… if this claim is true, it is utterly unsubstantive--none of the non-trivial results in physics or mathematics are the consequence of following the norms of thought. (I realize that there is a conception of logic that treats it as providing us with the norms of thought, but even if one were to grant this conception, it does not follow one obtains thereby mathematical or scientific results worth having.)

Schliesser’s point here, I think, is that the substantive results of science are not arrived at mechanically via the simplistic application of a set of more or less commonsense rules of the sort one finds in a logic textbook.  That is to say, scientists don’t proceed by saying: “OK, now let’s take the traditional Laws of Thought, the valid syllogism forms, inference rules like modus ponens, etc. and start cranking out some implications from what we’ve observed.”   Scientific practice is far more complex than that, especially insofar as it involves the use of computers following algorithms very unlike the patterns of reasoning we rely on in ordinary life.  Hence (again, if I am reading Schliesser correctly) if the EAAN shows that ordinary patterns of reasoning are unreliable on the assumption of naturalism, that is irrelevant to the reliability of science insofar as it does not rely on these patterns anyway.  Continuing in this vein, Schliesser writes:

Okay, let's assume -- for the sake of argument -- that it matters that humans are engaged in scientific practices that generate the building blocks of theoretical accounts.  In most of these the ordinary or average products of Darwinian evolution as such are not allowed near the lab.  In fact, the ordinary or average products of primary, secondary, and university education are also not allowed inside the lab.  Insanely high "achievement" over, say, twenty years of human capital formation is required before one becomes a little cog in the collaborative, scientific enterprise. (It's likely, in fact, that such achievement may just be a consequence of being a relatively rare freak of nature--a "monster" in eighteenth century vocabulary.) Parts of this achievement undoubtedly takes advantage of our selected for cognitive capacities and, perhaps, enhances these in subtle ways.  A large art of this achievement is the actual unlearning -- or generating the capacity for temporary disabling -- lots of our avarage Darwinian programming.  Moreover, much of the unlearning takes place after one's formal education is complete and inside the lab, where one's cognitive capacities are transformed into engagement with particular model organisms and particular specialized techniques. One does not need to accept all of Foucault, to see that the disciplining of scientific agents is as much an enhancement of human nature as a battle with pre-existing nature. So, "in science" our "cognitive capacities" are not used "directly." (Moreover, in so far as any human perception takes place in the epistemic processes of science much effort and skill is directed at making it entirely trivial.)

End quote.  Here I take it that Schliesser’s point is that the cognitive tendencies hardwired into us by natural selection are unlearned in the process of scientific training and practice -- the whole point of science being, as it were, to replace the “manifest image” that our natural cognitive tendencies generate with the “scientific image” (again to allude to Sellars) -- so that it doesn’t matter if those cognitive tendencies are unreliable.  

So, as I read him, the reliability of the cognitive tendencies put into us by natural selection is in Schliesser’s view irrelevant to the practice of science -- and thus to the defensibility of naturalism, which regards the scientific description of the world as either exhaustive or at least the only description worth bothering with -- for two reasons.  First, the relatively few human beings actually involved in scientific practice in a serious way do not rely on the cognitive tendencies in question in the first place, but seek precisely to resist and replace them.  And second, the modes of cognition they are engaged in can be carried out by machines anyway, which don’t have any hardwired human cognitive tendencies to resist.  So the EAAN fails, because it falsely supposes that it is the reliability of those hardwired human cognitive tendencies that naturalism presupposes.

Schliesser on our cognitive faculties

What should we think of all this?  Let’s consider first the claim that scientific practice involves radically moving away from our hardwired cognitive tendencies and their deliverances.  There is of course much truth in this, and I think Schliesser is right to suggest that any criticism of naturalism that does not factor it in is superficial.  However, this by no means suffices to disarm the EAAN.  

To see why, consider a couple of analogies.  Suppose you criticized a portrait or landscape artist for his poor drawing ability and he responded: “Drawing?  I don’t need no stinking drawing!  I’m a painter!  Hell, I haven’t done a complete line drawing since I was in school, and I rarely if ever even sketch out my subject before getting out the paints.  No, it’s all in the brushwork.  Obviously you don’t understand what we artists do.”  Or consider a dancer who suggested that the physiology of ordinary walking was irrelevant to understanding what she does, since she has over the course of many years had to acquire habits of movement that go well beyond anything the ordinary person is capable of, and even to unlearn certain natural tendencies.  (Think e.g. of the unusual stress a ballet dancer has to put on the foot, or the need to overcome our natural reluctance to move in ways that would for most people result in a fall.)  

The problem with such claims, of course, is that the fact painting or dancing involve going well beyond, and even to some extent unlearning, certain more basic habits does not entail that those habits are entirely irrelevant to the more advanced ones or that they can be entirely abandoned.  On the contrary, the more advanced habits necessarily presuppose that the more basic ones are preserved at least to some extent.  Even if drawing constitutes a very small part of producing a certain painting, and even if no sketch in pencil were made prior to getting out the paints, a painter without skill in drawing is going to produce a bad painting.  (The point has nothing to do with realism, by the way; a good painting done in the surrealist, impressionist, pointillist, or cubist style also presupposes the skills involved in drawing.)  Dancers have to have at least the muscles, bones, comfort with one’s body, ease of movement, etc. that are involved in ordinary walking even if they must also have much more than that.  The skills involved in ordinary drawing and walking constitute a framework for the more advanced skills, a framework that can be so covered over and modified that it may go virtually unnoticed in the course of painting or dancing, but which nevertheless cannot in principle be altogether abandoned.

Now by the same token, the ordinary patterns of reasoning as familiar to common sense as to the professional logician -- modus ponens, disjunctive reasoning, conjunctive reasoning, basic syllogistic reasoning, basic arithmetic, etc.  --  are, as Schliesser implies, a “trivial” part of science, but only in the sense that being able to walk over to the barre is a trivial part of being a ballet dancer, or the ability to draw a line or circle is a trivial part of being a painter.  While being able to walk over to the barre is obviously very far from sufficient for being a good ballet dancer, it is nonetheless absolutely necessary for being one; and while being able to draw a line or circle is obviously very far from sufficient for being a good painter, it too is still absolutely necessary for being one.  Similarly, while having the ability to reason in accordance with modus ponens, basic arithmetic, etc. is very far from sufficient for being able to do serious science, it is still an absolutely necessary condition for doing it.  The reason scientists don’t make a big deal of these “norms of thought” is the same reason ballet dancers don’t make a big deal out of their ability to walk and painters don’t go on about their skill in holding a pencil.  It is not that basic inference rules, walking, and drawing are irrelevant to science, dancing, and painting, respectively; it is rather that their relevance is so blindingly obvious that it goes without saying.

As Hilary Putnam pointed out in Representation and Reality, if you are going to call “folk psychology” into question -- which is what Schliesser is essentially doing (at least in the context of scientific practice, if not in other contexts) -- then you are going to have to call “folk logic” into question as well.  But we have nothing remotely close to an account of how this can coherently be done.  However far removed from ordinary cognition scientific modes of reasoning might be, they will presuppose fundamental logical notions like truth, consistency, validity, and the like, and our ability to recognize them when we see them.  And that means that they will presuppose the very abilities that even uneducated, untrained, pre-scientific “folk” possess.  (The fact that such “folk” sometimes make basic, systematic logical errors doesn’t change anything.  Pointing out to undergraduates that “This inference seems valid, but it is not” requires that they be able to see validity somewhere, and in particular in the argument that tells them that the inference in question is not really valid after all.)

Something similar is true of our perceptual faculties, which modern physics (with its account of the world as made up of colorless, odorless, soundless, tasteless particles etc. -- think of Eddington’s two tables)  might seem to have moved beyond altogether.  That this cannot be the case is obvious from the fact that physical theory, in the name of which perception is said to be misleading, is itself empirically based and thus grounded in perception.  Science can supplement or correct what perception tells us, but it cannot coherently deny the reliability of perception wholesale.  That it is at the very least difficult to see how it could coherently do so has, as I have noted in several places (e.g. here), been noticed by a number of thinkers from Democritus to Schrödinger.

We might also note that the degree to which the actual practice of science really does involve moving beyond ordinary modes of cognition is itself a matter of controversy (as the work of thinkers like Michael Polanyi illustrates); and that equally controversial is the question of whether the methods of physics really do reveal to us the whole nature of objective material reality in the first place.  Nor need one take a purely instrumentalist view of physics to doubt that they do.  To appeal to an analogy I’ve used in earlier posts, when aircraft engineers determine how many passengers can be carried on a certain plane, they might focus exclusively on their average weight and ignore not only the passengers’ sex, ethnicity, hair color, dinner service preferences, etc., but even the actual weight of any particular passenger.  This method is very effective, and is effective precisely because it captures real features of the world, but it hardly gives us an exhaustive description of airline passengers.  Similarly, the methods of physics, which focus on those aspects of a system that are susceptible of prediction and control and thus abstract away aspects which cannot be modeled mathematically, are extremely effective, and effective precisely because they capture real features of the world.  But it simply does not follow that the description of physical reality they afford us is exhaustive, any more than the engineer’s description is exhaustive.  And thus the fact that that description is radically different from the picture afforded by perception does not entail that it falsifies the latter.  To assume otherwise is (as I have noted before) to commit what Alfred North Whitehead called the “Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness.”  

In any event, whether we think our ordinary, pre-scientific perceptual and rational faculties are unreliable to only a minor extent or to a significant extent, we cannot coherently regard them as fundamentally unreliable.  And that they are fundamentally reliable is all the EAAN requires.  Even science at its most rarefied presupposes that at some level our senses tell us the truth in a systematic way, and that basic arithmetic, modus ponens, conjunctive reasoning, etc. are valid modes of inference.  EAAN claims that naturalism is inconsistent with this presupposition, and nothing Schliesser has said shows otherwise.

Schliesser on machines

But couldn’t Schliesser now appeal to the suggestion that the role of human beings in science is irrelevant anyway, since what they do could just as well be done by machines?  

No, one reason being that the machines in question must be designed and constructed by human beings -- they don’t grow on trees after all!  That means that, however it is they get the results they do, the machines will be reliable only if the cognitive faculties of those who designed and constructed them --namely, human beings -- are reliable.  (Nor would it help to suggest that machines that were constructed by other machines rather than by us wouldn’t face this problem; for the machine-constructing machines, or their ancestors anyway, would have been constructed by us, so that the problem is only pushed back a stage or several stages.)

But a deeper problem is that however they get here, machines in fact cannot carry out the cognitive tasks associated with scientific reason.  What they can do is merely serve as instruments to assist us as we carry out those tasks, as telescopes, microscopes, electrometers, scales, slide rules, pencil and paper, etc. do.  Schliesser is essentially taking for granted the computationalist theory of mind, on which cognitive processes in general are computational processes (in the sense of “computational” associated with modern computer science), so that they could be carried out by a machine as well as by us.  The “machine scientists” Schliesser is describing would accordingly be characterizable in terms of a kind of “android epistemology,” or perhaps in terms of what Paul Thagard calls “computational philosophy of science.”  But you don’t have to be an anti-naturalist to think that this whole idea is wrongheaded.  You just have to “get your Searle on,” as it were.

I am alluding here not to John Searle’s famous Chinese Room argument, but to the less well-known but more penetrating argument of his paper “Is the Brain a Digital Computer?” (restated in The Rediscovery of the Mind), according to which computation is not intrinsic to the physics of a system, so that it makes no sense to regard anything as carrying out a computation apart from the designers and/or users of a system who assign a computational interpretation to its processes.  (I discuss Searle’s argument in more detail in the post on Popper linked to above, since it is related to Popper’s argument.)  Saul Kripke has presented a similar argument, to the effect that there is nothing in the physical properties of any machine that can determine precisely which program it instantiates.  Any set of processes could, as far as their inherent physical properties alone are concerned, be interpreted either as the carrying out of one program or as a malfunction in the carrying out of some different program.  (I’ve discussed this argument too in greater detail in another earlier post.)

Now I think that it is in fact too strong to conclude on the basis of Searle’s, Popper’s, or Kripke’s arguments that there is nothing like computation inherent in physical processes, full stop.  The correct thing to say is rather that there is nothing like computation inherent in physical processes given an essentially materialist, anti-teleological conception of the physical.  However, if we allow that there is teleology of a broadly Aristotelian sort immanent to physical systems, then (as I’ve noted in earlier posts like this one and this one) we can make sense of the idea that certain physical systems are inherently directed toward the realization of this computational process rather than that one.  And if Nagel’s brand of naturalism is correct (though of course I don’t myself think it is), then such teleology can be made sense of without reference to a divine cause.  But what we would be left with in such a case is precisely Nagel’s form of naturalism -- a form that acknowledges the force of the EAAN and affirms teleology so as to get around problems of the sort the argument raises -- and this can hardly help to salvage Schliesser’s objection to the EAAN.

And of course, even if some computational processes are inherent to nature, that wouldn’t include those exhibited by the machines we use in our scientific endeavors, which are man-made and have only a derived teleology and thus a derivative status as “computers.”  We would be the true computers, with the machines serving as mere enhancements to our computational activity, just as binoculars enhance our vision but do not themselves see anything.  The reliability of the machines’ processes would, again, presuppose the reliability of our cognitive processes; and if the reliability of the latter is grounded in immanent teleology, then the force of the EAAN has been conceded and Nagel’s position will have been embraced rather than rebutted.

The bottom line is that we cannot altogether get outside our cognitive skins, even if we can modify, supplement, or even eliminate parts of those skins.  Schliesser’s position seems to suppose otherwise insofar as it implies that we could coherently practice science and accept its results while simultaneously denying the reliability of our cognitive faculties.  In fact, however we spell out the details of their relationship, Sellars’ “scientific image” is ultimately a part of the “manifest image” itself, so that the former cannot coherently be appealed to as a way of undermining the latter.  To quote Putnam quoting William James, “the trail of the human serpent is over all” -- or if not over all, then at least all over science, which is no less essentially human a practice than dancing, painting, machine-building, or philosophizing are.

434 comments:

  1. BLS,

    What evidence do we have that pro-survival/reproductive behaviors are more likely to be correlated with true beliefs rather than false beliefs?

    Evidence alone simply won't do it since there are always counter evidence to the claim. What he needs to show is a necessary logical connection between the two. Or to prove that truth about the world contains survival (that would of course would lead away from naturalism). Going from truth to survival is fine, but going at it backwards is not possible.

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  2. Wait, can you clarify what you mean by:

    "Brains are evolved mechanisms for helping organisms survive, and thanks to evolution the ones that are around tend to be good at doing that, which means they tend to track the world fairly accurately, within the limits of their imperfectly evolved machinery."

    How do we jump from (brains that are good at helping an organism survive) to (they tend to track the world fairly accurately)? How does this relate to propositional content?

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  3. BLS,

    He can do it via the magical use of sleigh of hand. A super-human ability that all naturalists have at their disposal. It's the survival "advantage" their darwinism equipped them with.

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  4. "Brains are evolved mechanisms for helping organisms survive, and thanks to evolution the ones that are around tend to be good at doing that, which means they tend to track the world fairly accurately, within the limits of their imperfectly evolved machinery."

    What—even in a general way—were the reproductive advantages that led to the evolution of brains that were good at understanding evolution, and how do you know they worked well enough that we can trust them in mounting arguments on that subject when our own reproduction is not at stake?

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  5. "How do we jump from (brains . . . are good at helping an organism survive) to (they tend to track the world fairly accurately)? How does this relate to propositional content?"

    And even after the gaps in this argument are filled in (which I expect they won't be), how do we know the argument is sound if we're evaluating it using nothing more than imperfectly evolved machinery the sole function (I almost said "purpose") of which is to help us survive?

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  6. Another question, what makes some brains better at promoting evolutionary fitness than other brains?

    Though we need to be careful when talking about brains. Brains can't do anything on their own, they require input via sensory organs, nutrients via a circulatory system, structures to house them, etc. When we are talking about hypothetical brains, we need to establish a hypothetical organism as well. Like I mentioned before, a "good" brain isn't going to do you much good in the wild if don't have the muscle or resources to back it up.

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  7. How do we jump from (brains that are good at helping an organism survive) to (they tend to track the world fairly accurately)?

    Let's split that into two questions: why did organisms evolve the ability to create something like mental representations, and why should those representations be accurate?

    The answer to the second seems fairly obvious.

    The answer to the first seems to be a version of the larger question of why evolution produced complex multicellular organisms at all, when after all bacteria are very successful. That is an interesting scientific question, but probably not germane to this discussion.

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  8. Not really.... It is not obvious anon.

    People can live their whole lives and even get laid with false beliefs.

    Actually you have to bridge the gap not ask exactly how or why these structures evolved hahahhaha.

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  9. "Let's split that into two questions: why did organisms evolve the ability to create something like mental representations . . . "

    As you say, that question isn't too germane to the subject at hand, which is probably why nobody asked it. But if we're going to ask it, we should do so in a non-question-begging way and drop the "why." Mentality/intentionality may not be a product of evolution any more than gravitation is.

    " . . . and why should those representations be accurate?

    The answer to the second seems fairly obvious."

    Perhaps it seems so to the imperfectly-evolved survival machine you call your "brain," but it surely didn't evolve for the purpose of evaluating arguments in evolutionary biology. Why would you regard "obviousness" as trustworthy on such a subject?

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  10. I can't really post today (sorry), but one quick insight I had about a miscommunication Anonymous and I may be having:

    "Have you read C.S Lewis's original version of the argument from reason? ... or to put it another way, the central premise of all arguments from reason" [edited]

    I think what you're doing is characterizing the EAAN as an Argument from Reason because it's belongs in the "family" of arguments that maintain naturalists cannot coherently explain Reason.

    My I am calling an Argument from Reason is something that roughly follows the same argument structure of the Lewis' argument. An Argument from Reason is based on something much like Feser's "key point" in the original post. It is an attack on naturalism on the metaphysical level, claiming it does not have the metaphysical resources to explain Reason.

    Under your classification, the EAAN is an "Argument from Reason" since it follows the theme of the "family". Under my classification, the EAAN is not an "Argument from Reason" because, well, it's simply a different argument. Indeed it is basically incompatible with the Argument from Reason because it accepts, for the sake of argument, that naturalists can explain how thoughts are related in the brain and our mental life, including specifically logical deductions and so on - in other words, it accepts that naturalism can explain Reason at the metaphysical level. It claims, in contrast, that it cannot explain it at the scientific level.

    How does that sound to you, Anonymous? Is this fair to your position? And do you accept my characterization of the "Argument from Reason" in my sense of the word?

    Cheers,
    Yair

    P.S I tried to read Lewis. Found him too pompous and vague to be worth the bother. Made me appreciate Narnia so much less, too... sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

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  11. Yair

    It seems, if they have the same essence as EAAN, to begin with pressuposing naturalism and concluding that naturalism has no basis for itself based on their own set of beliefs, or propositions.

    SO is not in scientific level, it is the very basis for EVERYTHING that is under attack.

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  12. I think Yair's distinction is important, but the two arguments are still somewhat similar. One seems to be the "Impossibility of Reason" and the other seems to be the "Improbability of Reason." Though if IIRC, Yair is a panpsychist? If so, I don't see how the EAAN affects him. He has a "defeater-deflector," as Plantinga would say.

    I'm not familiar with panpsychism, is it fundamentally monist or dualist?

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  13. "Indeed [the EAAN] is basically incompatible with the Argument from Reason because it accepts, for the sake of argument, that naturalists can explain how thoughts are related in the brain and our mental life, including specifically logical deductions and so on - in other words, it accepts that naturalism can explain Reason at the metaphysical level."

    Not quite, I think. The key contention in the AfR is that if our thoughts, as events in the natural or physical world, are caused in some way that doesn't involve grounding in logic, then we never arrive at a conclusion because the evidence requires it.

    That point is common to the EAAN, even if it concedes for the sake of argument that naturalists can explain how thought is related to brain activity. It still matters how they explain it, and the contention is that they can't (consistently) do so in any way that makes "reasoning" anything but a sheerly physical process in which relations of logical entailment and so forth play no causal role -- in other words, a sham.

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  14. "Let's split that into two questions: why did organisms evolve the ability to create something like mental representations, and why should those representations be accurate?"

    The answer to the second seems fairly obvious.


    Perhaps Anonymous will dazzle us by answering this 'obvious' question, which, I must confess, doesn't seem 'obvious' to me at all.

    Personally, my hopes aren't high. Normally when someone says that something is 'obvious' they're bluffing.

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  15. "I'm not familiar with panpsychism, is it fundamentally monist or dualist?"

    It can be either. A panpsychism according to which everything has both physical and mental properties would, thus far, be a form of (property) dualism. If it goes on to say, though, that the physical properties reduce to the mental ones, then it's monistic.

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  16. " Is it that hard to understand that a single person can both be subject to various illusions and be able to understand that they are illusory? When I watch a movie, I can enjoy the motion even though I also know that it is illusory, based on still images being flashed before me at 24 fps.
    January 23, 2013 at 8:56 AM "


    Yes, but you don't die of a bullet wound when the image of the villain on the big screen shoots. [Yes, we all are thinking the same thing here on reading that, but we will all have the maturity and grace not to make the remark out loud won't we ...]

    Whereas, continuing with the movie trope theme, if the solidity of a falling piano is somehow an illusion, it doesn't seem to make much difference to the real-life pedestrian who might entertain that illusion while caught on the real-life sidewalk below.


    It seems there are illusions, and then again, illusions.

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  17. Perhaps Anonymous will dazzle us by answering this 'obvious' question, which, I must confess, doesn't seem 'obvious' to me at all.

    The question is why accurate representations might be more useful for survival than inaccurate ones. Again, this seems so obviously true that it is hard to argue for, but let me give it a shot.

    Let’s imagine you are a squirrel and have various stashes of nuts you have hidden away for the winter, and an internal mental map of where they are. If your map is accurate, you find your nuts and eat well. If not, you can’t find them, and starve. QED.

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  18. Not really the map could be an entirely wrong representation of reality but it just happens to cause your body to move to the right location of the nuts...

    Is not fairly obvious, and it is not as easy as you think. See, if you pressupose that the WORLD YOU SEE NOW is correct, you are .... beggind the question, you don't know what it is right because you have no reason to believe in your senses... unless you do have a reason to believe they show you something true.

    The doubt rises from all the infinite possibilities of what could be stimulating your faculties, and it is exactly what Plantinga is arguing for.

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  19. you people ...after more than a day... haven't really understood what the argument is attacking.

    It seems that you people follow a logic similar to this:

    #1 - The world as I see is accurate.

    #2 - The proposition #1 is not a belief

    #3 - If my mind has a proposition about reality that fails it is because that proposition is wrong

    #4 - I can back up #3 because the world as I see is accurate and #1 is not a belief

    #5 - So any proposition that works is likely true, or at least NOT likely to be false

    #6 - Propositions that have as an objective my survival, if accurate, will allow me to survive

    #7 - Hence, accurate beliefs are correlated with and in a sense are necessary for survival.

    -----------------------------------

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  20. But of damn course, #1 is a belief created by your cognitive faculties xD.

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  21. Not really the map could be an entirely wrong representation of reality but it just happens to cause your body to move to the right location of the nuts...

    Yes, and the whole world could be an illusion supplied by the Matrix and we are all really lying in a vat acting as a battery for the evil machines.

    Science, and everyday cognition as well, is not a matter of knowing things with 100% certainty, but of inference to the most plausible explanation.

    And your objection is nonsensical. A mental representation is cannot be “entirely wrong” or entirely right for that matter. It is a tool, and it either works or it doesn’t. It is not, in general, anything like a photgraphic picture of the external world, but a symbolic abstraction.

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  22. There is just one way that naturalism can survive, if you say that naturalism makes reference not about reality but simply about the reality that is created by your cognitive faculties.

    Of course, the question then becomes: Is the references of part of the brain to other parts any accurate??? The thing is they once again don't have to be for you to survive. Esquizo can still fuck, and you can still create infinite possibilities about how a part of the brain that is innacurate can still cause the body to survive.

    So yeah maybe you can't really save naturalism this way.

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  23. Or maybe there is no matrix and your cognitive faculties just don't send any reliable information to you XD.

    Yes, an inference based on all sort of inaccurate premises XD. You don't seems to understand at all what we arguing here.

    Your counter argument is... irrelevant. Okay it is a symbolic abstraction... of what??? if could be of nothing, it could the symbolic abstraction of something completely unknown that you like to call it truth or whatever.

    Btw, right... a representation can not be entirely wrong, I wonder what exactly stops that representation from going entirely wrong...

    And yet again, you don't understand the argument, either that or you are completely incapable of understanding the argument which, would quite sincerely scare the shit out of me XD.

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  24. "Let’s imagine you are a squirrel and have various stashes of nuts you have hidden away for the winter, and an internal mental map of where they are. If your map is accurate, you find your nuts and eat well. If not, you can’t find them, and starve. QED."

    Why would an inaccurate internal map lead to starvation? It wouldn't be because spatial relations are really "out there" in reality to be grasped by the mind, would it? How could you claim to know a thing like that? If all we have access to are "mental representations" generated by imperfectly evolved survival machines, how do you even know there's anything "out there" to compare those representations to, let alone what it might mean for them to be "accurate"?

    And when you say "QED," do you mean that your conclusion follows logically from your premises? If so, you certainly seem to be placing an unwarranted amount of trust in an imperfectly evolved survival machine.

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  25. You know man I am serious... I never met someone so incapable of understanding an argument as you people. I mean you don't even try to ask us just what you are wrong about, you people simply ignore the argument and say the thing you said before.

    I mean, seriously, I don't even know what to tell you people because sincerely I am starting to think you people sincerely believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE that are YOU ARE WRONG; I mean... I don't know how to start arguing with someone that is so convinced that he is right he will not even listen what other people have to say or even read the damn argument that is in the combox.

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  26. "A mental representation is cannot be 'entirely wrong' or entirely right for that matter. It is a tool, and it either works or it doesn’t."

    And reasoned arguments? Can they be entirely right or wrong? Or are they "just tools" too? If so, for what?

    I'm amazed at the lengths to which some people will go in order to squirm their way out of an intelligibly and rationally ordered cosmos. You'd think it was on fire.

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  27. Wait, do squirrels rely on scent or landmarks (or both) to find their buried nuts?

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  28. I can speak only for myself here. I don't rely on either one to find my nuts.

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  29. BLS

    it could be both but most animals rely on scent especially their very own scent to find their stuff.

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  30. "it could be both but most animals rely on scent especially their very own scent to find their stuff."

    And if that's the case, then there needn't be any internal "map" at all, and it's actually not obvious what role there is for consciousness to play in general.

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  31. Well, I would guess that .... errrr ... Well I was going to reply that the animal needs to know his scent but you could counter attack with some system that simply relate scent and finding kills in a causal relation.

    So yeah the animal doesn't need his counsciousness of scent. XD

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  32. Under Materialist-Naturalism, does an "accurate" description of reality include terms like taste, sound, smell, sight and touch?

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  33. I never met someone so incapable of understanding an argument as you people.

    The “argument” is moronic. The only reason for accepting it, as far as I can see, is to justify a prior belief in some supernatural entity. Or if you are very very stupid. Plantiga and Feser aren’t stupid; they are just carrying water for their religion. You, on the other hand....

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  34. Guys, enough with the ad homs.

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  35. Wait, the they didn't esterilized the area of the caches, how did they know that the squirrel wasn't just following his scent... maybe the scientist forgot to say that he sterilized...

    Nope ... they didn't sterilized, although they were careful not to add odour cues XD.

    So maybe the experiment just doesn't show that they followed their memory, the conclusion the experimenters think corroborates with the theory doesn't exactly does what they think it does.

    Although it is a brilliant way to test the hypothesis, maybe somebody did it again but this time by removing the odour of the squirrels and had positive statistical results.

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  36. Right, the supernatural being is not part of premises in any way since the objective of the argument is to show an incoherence within a set of beliefs that exclude such being... If it justifies their beliefs, that is their problem, you are doing the genetic fallacy now.

    Well, being called stupid by someone as inept as you is really ... not important at all. Your opinion about me has no weight at all. All you did so far is to use fallacy after fallacy, and now you are attacking me because I am saying that you can't understand the argument, which I think I am correct and along with other people have been trying to show you why...

    Seriously if you just hate religion and you don't like the argument because it is religion related, then please leave... You have nothing to add here thank you.

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  37. BLS

    Sorry, I am just trying to show my indignation with their behavior, not that this will amount to much XD, but still I think it is something I need to say.

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  38. Actually Anon you are miing genetic fallacy with fallacy of consenquence.

    Seriously, you haven't engaged at all with the argument and we have been trying to tell you why.

    You want me to do what??? FEEL FREAKING PROZAC because you have such an interesting skill in ignoring others???

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  39. "The only reason for accepting it, as far as I can see, is to justify a prior belief in some supernatural entity."

    Uh oh, someone said "supernatural" again! Sooner or later, they always do. I'd ask Anonymous what "supernatural" means, how he knows that God is "supernatural", and what relevance God's purported "supernaturalness" has to the question of his existence, but one question at a time, I think.

    As a side note, I think Anonymous has indulged in a bit of Bulverism here. You see, he *already knows* that theism is wrong and all the arguments for it are bad, so he's skipped straight to explaining why theists believe in these "moronic" arguments. Just don't ask what's wrong with them.

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  40. Let's leave supernatural entities out of this.

    "Science, and everyday cognition as well, is not a matter of knowing things with 100% certainty, but of inference to the most plausible explanation."

    If this is the case, can scientists say anything about ontology? Or only epistemology?

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  41. Actually we can all accuse the naturalists of the same thing...

    That they just don't want the argument to succeed because of some prior belief in Naturalism XD.

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  42. Can they say anything about those AS SCIENTISTS, or they can say it as PHILOSOPHERS ?

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  43. "The question is why accurate representations might be more useful for survival than inaccurate ones. Again, this seems so obviously true that it is hard to argue for, but let me give it a shot."

    Well, we got a hypothetical example. I was kind of hoping for a syllogism that concludes "Therefore accurate representations are more useful for survival than inaccurate ones."

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  44. And what would a squirrel's mental representation even BE like? You run into some batty problems while trying to describe that.

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  45. If this is the case, can scientists say anything about ontology? Or only epistemology?

    As opposed to who? Certainly they can make more informed statements about these things than philosophers who do no observation.

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  46. Eduardo,

    People can live their whole lives and even get laid with false beliefs.

    Haha. This must be the argument of the year.

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  47. Right, a philosopher can not do any observation XD. Wow another brilliant remark, are you saying that philosophers can not see the world the scientists see???

    Well, you didn't get the idea, as usual. I am saying that to speak about those things the scientists would be doing philosophy, since their science depends on a series of assumptions to be lifted off the ground.

    Now, imagine a world where infering causation is impossible, we happen to have certain philosphies who happen to defend that, now some philosphies defend that we can know causation and some don't and both are compatible with doing experiments. What you are teeling me is that scientists because they do experiments somehow can KNOW causation better then philosophers even though knowing causation may be impossible.

    Now to be quite sincere some philosohies do defend that experience is the prime way to know ontology and epistemology, although I suppose they mmight say that just having the experience is not enough.

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  48. LOL, well I meant to say reproduce, but the way I wrote was way more interesting!!!

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  49. "The 'argument' is moronic. The only reason for accepting it, as far as I can see, is to justify a prior belief in some supernatural entity. Or if you are very very stupid."

    Suppose you tell us clearly and cogently, in your own words, exactly what you think the argument is and exactly what you think is wrong with it. Perhaps then you'll be entitled to speculate on the motives of others who don't find it "moronic."

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  50. "You see, he *already knows* that theism is wrong and all the arguments for it are bad, so he's skipped straight to explaining why theists believe in these 'moronic' arguments."

    From his own comment it certainly seems so. But if that's the case, then his allergic reaction is psychosomatic, as the argument in question neither proves nor purports to prove the truth of theism.

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  51. Scott

    Dude there is no way he can communicate with us, because you see... Philosphers don't have eyes, ears, tongue, or a skin, they can't analyse data or learn math, and they are incapable of interpretation. We because we think philosophy is so good must of course means... THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY THAT TOO, but anon and his amazing power and different level of enlightment is just here to teach us poor paper-weight's a bit of knowledge, a kn9owledge that we can never achieve because ... well we can't do any observation! We are all blinded by our limitations, like the limitation of writing something without any meaning, a meaning that only a scientist can see because brute fact.

    So brothers and sisters, let's us all accept our stupidity and inferiority and accept the superiority of scientism becaue brute fact, and let's seek to evolve because brute fact, brute fact, amen.

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  52. the EAAN is not an "Argument from Reason" because, well, it's simply a different argument. Indeed it is basically incompatible with the Argument from Reason because it accepts, for the sake of argument, that naturalists can explain how thoughts are related in the brain and our mental life, including specifically logical deductions and so on - in other words, it accepts that naturalism can explain Reason at the metaphysical level.

    Plantinga's argument is not committed to conceding the metaphysical argument. There really is no conflict between the two arguments either. The EAAN is just a supplementary argument so to speak.

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  53. "Plantinga's argument is not committed to conceding the metaphysical argument. There really is no conflict between the two arguments either. The EAAN is just a supplementary argument so to speak."

    Indeed, Lewis includes a short variant of the EAAN in his own spelling out of the AfR.

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  54. The AfR as presented by Reppert is of course much more sophisticated and attacks naturalism on a plethora of grounds. It's not just one simple thing so to speak.

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  55. "
    P.S I tried to read Lewis. Found him too pompous and vague to be worth the bother. Made me appreciate Narnia so much less, too... sometimes, ignorance is bliss."

    May I ask what specimens are prose you do find to be excellent, before we establish you as a worthy critic?

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  56. Just for the record I take the exact opposite view. I take the view that C.S Lewis is one of the most insightful writers and thinkers of the last century, worth more than just about any analytical or continental philosopher and an accomplished prose writer.

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  57. Scott,

    Lewis includes a short variant of the EAAN in his own spelling out of the AfR.

    Yes, he does. Where he addresses the problem for the naturalist who claims that reason is but a recent phenomenon caused by mere biological usefulness.

    You have a good memory. I vaguely remembered it, but wasn't sure so I omitted it. Once you brought it up I looked at my notes and found the part specific to what you're saying.

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  58. "The AfR as presented by Reppert is of course much more sophisticated and attacks naturalism on a plethora of grounds. It's not just one simple thing so to speak."

    Agreed. I highly, highly recommend Reppert's excellent book on the subject, both for its careful and thoughtful ringing of the changes on the AfR and for its correction of the misconception that Elizabeth Anscombe somehow "humilated" Lewis when she criticized his original formulation of the argument. (By the way, the link earlier in this thread to Lewis's "original" argument is actually to the argument as he revised it in response to Anscombe's criticisms, not the chapter originally published in the unrevised edition of Miracles.)

    He also has a chapter on it in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology (which I believe Feser mentioned in his post), but I don't yet own that volume and so can't comment.

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  59. Just for the record I take the exact opposite view. I take the view that C.S Lewis is one of the most insightful writers and thinkers of the last century, worth more than just about any analytical or continental philosopher and an accomplished prose writer.

    I would say that he is head and shoulders above most analytic philosophers but I think there are continental philosophers who I would group in the same caliber as Lewis.

    Both him and Chesterton are magnificent thinkers in my opinion.

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  60. I wouldn’t waste my own words on it, but here are Feser’s, with my interspersed comments:

    The EAAN begins by noting that what natural selection favors is behavior that is conducive to reproductive success.

    So far so good.

    Such behavior might be associated with true beliefs, but it might not be; it is certainly possible that adaptive behavior could be associated instead with beliefs that happen to be false.

    It is not only possible, it is certain (see the illusion examples earlier).

    In that case, though, there is nothing about natural selection per se that could guarantee that our cognitive faculties reliably produce true beliefs.

    Here’s where it starts to go wrong, by sneaking in the assumption that true belief and survivability have nothing to do with each other, which is obviously false. And if it isn’t obvious, see the earlier argument.

    A given individual belief would have about a 50-50 chance of being true.

    And then falls off the rails completely. It is difficult to unpack the many misunderstandings and false assumptions in this one short sentence:
    - that beliefs are random
    - that beliefs are independent of each other
    - that random beliefs would have a 50% chance of being true (in fact they would have an infinitesmly small chance of being true, becuase there are so many more false statements than true ones)

    And the probability that the preponderance of true beliefs over false ones would be great enough to make our cognitive faculties reliable is very small indeed.

    See above, although if you look at this closely it is talking nonsense. What does it mean to have “reliable” cognitive faculties? If it means having some proportion of true beliefs then the above statement is a tautology; if it means beliefs that enable the individual to survive, then the argument breaks its earlier assumption.

    Or to sum up, the argument is based on the entirely unwarranted assumption that evolution produces minds which entertain atomized beliefs whose truthfulness is completely random.

    Which is to say, it’s entirely idiotic.

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  61. "Yes, he does. Where he addresses the problem for the naturalist who claims that reason is but a recent phenomenon caused by mere biological usefulness."

    That's the bit. It's only a couple of paragraphs, but as with so much of Lewis, the little he says carries a lot of cargo.

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  62. He also has a chapter on it in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology (which I believe Feser mentioned in his post), but I don't yet own that volume and so can't comment.

    That's where I read the argument for the first time. I haven't the book itself although at $9 on Amazon it begs to be bought. The Blackwell Companion is much more expensive though. I don't own it myself but I thank google and amazon reviews as well as my university's library for it. ;-)

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  63. *google and amazon previews not reviews.

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  64. "Here’s where it starts to go wrong, by sneaking in the assumption that true belief and survivability have nothing to do with each other, which is obviously false."

    It is indeed false, but you can recognize and acknowledge its falsity only by your "sneaking in the assumption" that reality itself is susceptible of rational understanding and that we have some reliable idea of what constitutes true belief and valid reasoning. The argument doesn't sneak in any assumption to the contrary; it points out that you are not entitled to sneak your assumption in, because the account of reasoning to which your own account commits you neither allows logic to play a causal role in thought processes nor leaves you any access to a reality to which your "mental representations" can be compared for accuracy.

    "[T]he argument is based on the entirely unwarranted assumption that evolution produces minds which entertain atomized beliefs whose truthfulness is completely random."

    The argument is based on no such assumption. The argument simply points out that you are not entitled to presume, as you clearly do presume in every sentence you write on the subject, that evolution produces minds whose beliefs have any reliable relation with the reality they're supposed to be "about."

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  65. See above, although if you look at this closely it is talking nonsense. What does it mean to have “reliable” cognitive faculties? If it means having some proportion of true beliefs then the above statement is a tautology; if it means beliefs that enable the individual to survive, then the argument breaks its earlier assumption.

    Or to sum up, the argument is based on the entirely unwarranted assumption that evolution produces minds which entertain atomized beliefs whose truthfulness is completely random.

    Which is to say, it’s entirely idiotic.

    -------------------------------

    he never skeaned that assumption in, he said that there is nothing in natural selection per se that guarantees the reliability of our cognitive faculties.

    Your early argument fails XD, since when have we stablished that that argument works all you did was hand wave and say that OH THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO SEE THIS!!! You haven't answered anyone's remarks about your argument.

    Sure please show us exactly how many false beliefs are there and how many true beliefs are there. I don't know if you can do that, and the 50% chance is being charitable, it is to say that it has same amount of chance of being wrong as of being right.

    Now you said ONE thing that is worth mentioning... so I will put in another post.

    Err... exactly he is simply telling you the definition given to the word reliable, that is all XD is not a proposition it is a clarification.

    Your conclusion doesn't follow, because your analysis was throughly moronic.

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  66. Now I have written plantinga's take on what possibly could be a belief up thread, tell me where he goes wrong.

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  67. "And then falls off the rails completely. It is difficult to unpack the many misunderstandings and false assumptions in this one short sentence:
    - that beliefs are random
    - that beliefs are independent of each other"

    Those are not misunderstandings or false assumptions. Those are conclusions about what would and must be the case in a world in which thought is governed not by the nature of its object but solely by physics.

    "- that random beliefs would have a 50% chance of being true (in fact they would have an infinitesmly small chance of being true, becuase there are so many more false statements than true ones)

    There are? I'd expect that in the "universe" of propositions, half would be true and half would be false.

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  68. (That is, because every meaningful proposition has a negation, and of the two, one is true and the other false—and meaningless "propositions" aren't genuine propositions.)

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  69. Errr nice argument Scott, I haven't thought about that XD.

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  70. "Errr nice argument Scott, I haven't thought about that XD."

    Which one—the "half of all propositions are true" bit? Thanks. To be honest, I'm not sure it's right; I haven't accounted for the possibility that some propositions might be meaningful and yet neither true nor false, nor for the possibility that there are degrees of truth. But for present purposes I think it does the job: pull a random proposition out of a hat, and the prior Bayesian probability that it's true should be about 50%.

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  71. Yeah I can see that there are other possibilities XD, in some other types or takes on logic.

    But mostly I think Plantinga means, that it is 50% because it could be either wrong of false with equal chance.

    The funny part is that XD, Anon agrees that there are problem in cognition, but he believes that evolution will mostly favor true ones because false ones would kill you.

    Basically is just the stupid syllogism I did before that sneaks in exactly what you said, that you KNOW what is correct, by pressuposing that your cognitive faculties are correct then concluding that they must be correct because you know they are correct.

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  72. "The funny part is that XD, Anon agrees that there are problem in cognition, but he believes that evolution will mostly favor true ones because false ones would kill you."

    Which, yes, as you say, already involves the assumption that we're dealing with a rationally cognizable reality to which we can successfully apply (and know that we successfully apply) logical arguments and to which we can successfully refer (and know that we successfully refer) with our "mental representations."

    The EAAN says that assumption is unwarranted on a naturalist view, and until that point is appreciated, the force of the argument has been missed.

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  73. Precisely.

    But as far as it goes, the honorable critics all seem truly inclined to sneak in that THEY KNOW and that is it, and if you don't like that he makes that assumption then you better read more science!!!

    Seriously... so what if we try to think about HOW we can have a reliable cognition???

    That would be fun, and definitely we could profit XD from the all the fun...

    unless you wich to wait for them to figured something out even though people have been telling them where they went wrong for over a day XD.

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  74. Although... it wouldn't make any sense if we don't XD... this phrase would also make no sense XD.

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  75. "What does it mean to have 'reliable' cognitive faculties? If it means having some proportion of true beliefs then the above statement is a tautology; if it means beliefs that enable the individual to survive, then the argument breaks its earlier assumption."

    Then score another point for the EAAN. What most of us mean by having reliable cognitive faculties is that our thought is, or can be, in general and overall governed by the nature of its object. If the assumptions of naturalism make such reliability meaningless, so much the worse for naturalism.

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  76. "Is it that hard to understand that a single person can both be subject to various illusions and be able to understand that they are illusory?"

    The problem here is the supervisory vantage point and criteria for adjudicating illusoriness itself per se. And that's a key to the problem with naturalism.

    As Wilbur Urban argued, if the naturalist thesis is taken as an account of all knowledge, that thesis itself cannot claim to be true. It can only claim to be a product of its own explanatory factors.

    According to naturalism, the truth of the naturalist account itself, like every other item of knowledge, is merely the function of the adjustment of the organism to its environment. Therefore, the truth of the naturalist account has no more importance than any other adjustment. Its only value is its survival value.

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  77. "It is not only possible, it is certain (see the illusion examples earlier)."

    You gave two examples, and you've already acknowledged that one of them didn't make the point you wanted it to make. The other was the Müller-Lyer illusion, and we haven't discussed that one; I'm not willing to concede that it shows that adaptive behavior can be associated with false belief, especially since the entire notion that "optical illusions" can prove the unreliability of the mind has been criticized elsewhere in the thread.

    Perhaps you can spell that point out instead of assuming that a mere reference to it constitutes an argument.

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  78. "The problem here is the supervisory vantage point and criteria for adjudicating illusoriness itself per se."

    Precisely. It's simply incoherent to argue that the existence of optical illusions proves that we have no reliable cognitive access to objective reality when the recognition of illusions as illusions presumes that the arguer has such access.

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  79. machiinephilosophy,

    How's the book coming?

    I saw your argument posted on box day's blog the other day. Are you still refining it?

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  80. *Vox day (damn autocorrect)

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  81. Therefore, the truth of the naturalist account has no more importance than any other adjustment. Its only value is its survival value.

    Strictly speaking though, what possible survival value can belief in naturalism have in the first place? Isn't that a bit ironic?

    In other words, not only does naturalism fail in terms of truth it also fails in terms of survival.

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  82. @scott: It's simply incoherent to argue that the existence of optical illusions proves that we have no reliable cognitive access to objective reality

    Well, since i have been arguing the exact opposite of that, I fail to see how this is germane at all. Try to pay attention.

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  83. I had no idea that Vox had posted the thing, since I merely emailed him directly. But there's nothing there that threatens the argument, and a lot of self-reference errors in the comments.

    Nielsen started it, on page 31 of the 2nd Edition of Ethics Without God (1990), so it's based on a crossover from his argument for a necessarily independent moral criterion *without* believing in God. But to me this is the recalcitrant image of God alluded to in by Saint Paul in the beginning of the Letter to the Romans, and affirmed by the Catholic view of the natural light of human reason---denied of course in epistemologically convoluted evangelical circles.

    The book is coming along fine, but I must master the metaphysics of Thomists like Ed, and the philosophy of logic of people like Joseph Boyle, Carl Kordig, Rob Koons, and George Bealer to make sure I've covered all bases.

    Notice that besides Ed Feser---Boyle, Kordig, and Koons are also Catholic philosophers. Don't know about Bealer but he is one mind-blowing philosopher, and as with Ed's books and essays, I'm just going to have to read everything Bealer has written.

    Thanks for bringing Vox's post to my attention. I did not post anything there, but my argument seems to have caused a huge firestorm. I'll analyze it all meticulously.

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  84. Anonymous [of January 23, 2013 at 5:25 PM] said...

    "Strictly speaking though, what possible survival value can belief in naturalism have in the first place? Isn't that a bit ironic?

    I agree, and I should have worded it something like this:

    Therefore, the truth of the naturalist account has no more importance than any other adjustment except for its possible survival value.

    ...But the general principle applies to all reductive, fixed-factor, universal theories. There's simply no way for those theories themselves to break out of their respective explaining/determining factors and be considered true in addition to being merely the product of those factors.

    As I've asked on this blog before: When do we get to add the label "true" on top of the explanatory/determining factors of these kinds of reductive theories? What's the criteria?

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  85. @scott: The other was the Müller-Lyer illusion, and we haven't discussed that one; I'm not willing to concede that it shows that adaptive behavior can be associated with false belief

    You are confused here as well. My point was not that adaptive behavior is associated with false belief (isn't that what you guys are pushing?) but that it is trivially easy to have part of a nervous system report a false belief while simultaneously being aware that is false. (Exact same point with the movie example, as a matter of fact).

    The larger point was that cognition is imperfect and yet we have ways of compensating for its imperfections. Just like we can use a ruler or something to verify that the lines are actually the same size, we have used the tools of science to puncture, eg, the illusion that the earth is the still point around which the rest of the heavens revolves. Sure looks that way to the unaided eye and mind though.

    Although I usually wouldn't put it so crudely -- religion is the illusion and science is the compensating view. You guys are just trying to enjoy your movie, and here comes me and science to poke holes in it and spoil the magic. No wonder you are all so pissy.

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  86. "Well, since i have been arguing the exact opposite of that, I fail to see how this is germane at all. Try to pay attention."

    I think there may a reference error here, since there seem to be several Anons. Please make a nickname, or how about you use your next verification code to identify yourself? (Kidding)

    But that comment was addressed to machinephilosophy anyway.

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  87. I'm pretty sure misrepresentations also cause a problem for naturalism, because the screw up causal explanations of intentionality.

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/search?q=dretske

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  88. Although I usually wouldn't put it so crudely -- religion is the illusion and science is the compensating view. You guys are just trying to enjoy your movie, and here comes me and science to poke holes in it and spoil the magic. No wonder you are all so pissy.
    -------------------------------------

    LOL, congrats man, you come here doing all sort of stupid argument and now you come as the bringer of science(which is your world view is pretty much anti-religion or atheism).

    Wow ... does any have any doubt that Anon is just a worthless troll???

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  89. Wow anonymous, you simply won't let go of that argument XD, the guy WILL NOT understand the argument and is hell bent on believing that his begged question is the solution to the argument.

    Is this what Science has caused to you, WOW, just WOW. I have studied science in an university and none of that have happened to any of us students... We musn't have studied science since science create this awesomely inept thiking skills that you have, and also create that profound delusion of never being wrong at all... my science must have problems.

    OH WAIT, maybe you are just mad at religion and will do anything, as the dishonest prick you are of course, to score politically/socially against it!!!

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  90. Yeah, after reading Scott's and machinephilosophy's last few points the discussion is basically over.

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  91. Although I usually wouldn't put it so crudely -- religion is the illusion and science is the compensating view. You guys are just trying to enjoy your movie, and here comes me and science to poke holes in it and spoil the magic. No wonder you are all so pissy.

    You don't have "science" on your side here. About the only thing you've brought out is a lot of ignorance and some poor philosophy. And you probably don't even know that it's philosophy, since you have that particular delusion going on where you assume any argument you think is correct must therefore be a scientific argument.

    The larger point was that cognition is imperfect and yet we have ways of compensating for its imperfections.

    And what you keep right on missing is the fact that these "compensations" are judged to compensate by the very same cognitive processes that are under question, and will themselves stand in need of an explanation in the face of the EAAN. The fact that you can imagine that someone can second guess themselves and 'discover they are wrong' doesn't advance your argument an inch here, because then you're right back to trying to figure out the likelihood of such cognitive processes being reliable given naturalism. (Hint: superficially, there's no more reason to regard second-guesses as reliable than first guesses.)

    You're very confused here, and that's probably due both to your emotional investment in your atheism, as well as your terror at those scary religious people being correct about something fundamental. But really, you shouldn't let your cognitive deficiencies stand in the way of learning. Granted, that may be beyond your control, but for your own sake - try, alright?

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  92. Anon

    You should follow your words... your scientism is the delusion and science, not the crack-pot version you believe in, is the solution.

    Second... you have shown that you have not understand ANY OF THE ARGUMENTS, ANY!

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give up, from this discussion nothing will come, that much is clear.

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  93. @anon

    The larger point was that cognition is imperfect and yet we have ways of compensating for its imperfections.

    To have the capacity to correct the problems of some faulty thinking you must presuppose the reliability of the human cognitive apparatus to do so. That cognitive apparatus that you so ignorantly presuppose without realizing it is precisely what naturalism cannot provide.

    A number of people have tied to explain this to you over and over again but it seems like your narrow-mindedness is too severe to let anything in that challenges your blind faith in naturalism. Either that or you're just not intelligent enough to get it.

    we have used the tools of science to puncture, eg, the illusion that the earth is the still point around which the rest of the heavens revolves

    Science is not magic. Human cognitive faculties, which are pre-scientific is what makes this possible in the first place. If said cognitive faculties are incapable of deciphering truth from falsity, which is what naturalism entails given evolution as per the EAAN. You're confusing the human cognitive faculties as an aspect of the human form with specific errors made. That is a very elementary mistake that absolutely demolishes any and all claims you've made.

    As far as the centrality of humans/mind/etc in the Cosmos, your old Copernican Principle has of course been discredited by Quantum Theory (at least some of its interpretations since some nihilist "scientists" still insist in superstitions like the multiverse).

    religion is the illusion and science is the compensating view. You guys are just trying to enjoy your movie, and here comes me and science to poke holes in it and spoil the magic. No wonder you are all so pissy.

    Well naturalism, atheism, scientism are all manifestations of human religiosity so they too are religions. In that sense, yes these religions that I specified are the illusion and in many cases modern science has refuted their nonsense. E.g. the materialist conception of reality, reductionist articles of faith, the belief that the universe is eternal and so on.

    Now you're probably thinking, yes, but how can science refute scientism, right? Well it doesn't quite refute it, that's why we have logic and good philosophy at our disposal. Scientism, which is what you're indirectly committed to is self-refuting. I won't tell you how, I'll let you figure that out by yourself. If you can't then I'll explain it.

    Finally I will leave you with one of my favorite quotes about science and religion by Nobel laureate Robert Millikan:

    "Men who know very little of science and men who know very little of religion do indeed get to quarreling, and the onlookers imagine that there is a conflict between science and religion, whereas the conflict is only between two different species of ignorance.”

    No one is pissed at you. But rather, we find your inability to grasp the argument in conjunction with your awful and irrational responses rather pedantic and boring. ;-)

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  94. I think the AfR succeeds and hits harder than the EAAN. Though I am sympathetic to the EAAN, I don't think it is particularly good because I can't figure out where the "low or inscrutable" part comes from.

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  95. BLS

    I think it comes from the fours possibilities of what would be a belief in naturalism.

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  96. And I think the Science vs God/Religion discussion isn't worth discussing in a combox. In order to change and/or understand one's metaphysics, you have to start from the ground up, which is sooo time-consuming.

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  97. BLS

    Overall I agree with you, but Inept Anon is just throwing jabs because he most likely hates religion and wants to desperately believe that whatever he believes is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth XD.

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  98. "Well, since i have been arguing the exact opposite of that, I fail to see how this is germane at all. Try to pay attention."

    As BLS has already pointed out, my reply was to machinephilosophy, not to you. If such-and-such isn't your position, then it's not your position; just say so. There's no need to be rude; I haven't been rude to you (and I don't think anyone else has either).

    "You are confused here as well. My point was not that adaptive behavior is associated with false belief (isn't that what you guys are pushing?) . . . "

    Not quite. What we're (or at least I'm) ultimately "pushing" is that unless you acknowledge a much more intimate relationship between thought and reality than you appear to, there just isn't any way to correlate beliefs with reality at all, even in principle, and the entire notion of the "accuracy" of "mental representations" should be meaningless.

    " . . . but that it is trivially easy to have part of a nervous system report a false belief while simultaneously being aware that is false."

    No, I'm not confused here. My point, as I think I've made tolerably clear, is that awareness/knowledge that a possible belief is false requires an ability to compare the report of a nervous system to reality in a way that your outlook doesn't seem to permit. On your outlook, you're not even entitled to the possibility of falsehood.

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  99. "I think the AfR succeeds and hits harder than the EAAN."

    So do I. I gather from Feser's post that he thinks so as well.

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  100. There's no need to be rude; I haven't been rude to you (and I don't think anyone else has either).
    -------------------------------------

    Correction, I have been rude because brute fact xP!

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  101. And what you keep right on missing is the fact that these "compensations" are judged to compensate by the very same cognitive processes that are under question, and will themselves stand in need of an explanation in the face of the EAAN.

    You guys keep repeating the same bad argument over and over. I get it, I get it.

    What I don’t get is what your alternative is. Something, you feel, must account for the fact that cognitive processes are reliable, accurate, whatever. You don’t believe natural selection can do it (although I’ve yet to hear even a smidgeon of an argument why, other than the usual argument-from-lack-of-imagination). So -- what’s your alternative? If it’s not a magic sky fairy who is in charge of making sure that every thought is matched to a corresponding thing in the real world, or something equally ridiculous, what do you have? You are demanding an explanation from me, let’s see yours.

    Science is not magic. Human cognitive faculties, which are pre-scientific is what makes this possible in the first place.

    Uh, that was my point, genius.

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  102. "Correction, I have been rude because brute fact xP!"

    Well, okay, then. Eduardo has been rude to you. ;-)

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  103. We don't need sky fairies, panpsychism, teleosemantics, etc do the job pretty well.

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  104. Anon

    To the discussion at hand he doesn't need to show what he believes that makes the cognitive faculties accurate, because we are discussing an argument against naturalism, what a philosophy that is not naturalism think seems to be irrelevant.

    Second, even if others don't provide with a solution or provide with a solution you don't like, that won't further your side of the discussion.

    NOW IF, you mean to say that the ONLY POSSIBILITY is what naturalism offers than that will be a nice argument.

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  105. Actually a sky fairy wouldn't do much good, unless they are all spirits that surround all reality, but then people would tend to call them a characteristic of nature or o reality, and not sky fairies.

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  106. Certainly the EAAN isn't as powerful as the AfR. No doubt about that. However, one of the main reasons I like the EAAN is the mere fact that it turns two of the atheist's dogmas against each other, namely naturalism and darwinism.

    All you need to do then is let the two beasts devour each other.

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  107. "If it’s not a magic sky fairy who is in charge of making sure that every thought is matched to a corresponding thing in the real world, or something equally ridiculous, what do you have?"

    I don't think that many of the people here are occasionalists...

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  108. "You guys keep repeating the same bad argument over and over. I get it, I get it."

    If you "get" our argument that your own outlook can't account for itself, then what's your response?

    "What I don’t get is what your alternative is. . . . You are demanding an explanation from me, let’s see yours."

    That the cosmos is in some sense the activity, manifestation, or creation of a rational mind; that intelligibility is built into it from the get-go; that when we think about X, our thought is in some way governed by the actual nature of X; and that it's a fundamental mistake to regard thought and objective reality as two separate realms.

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  109. @scott unless you acknowledge a much more intimate relationship between thought and reality than you appear to,

    WTF are you talking about? As far as I am concerned, thought and reality are so intimate that it’s probably illegal in Utah.

    It’s you guys who apparently believe that thought is so disconnected from reality that it is entirely random without the intervention of the Magic Intentionality Fairy.

    I, on the other hand, consider thought as simply another product of natural selection, and /thereby/ is shaped to reality. Just as the skeleton is shaped by the force of gravity, the need for locomtion and support, etc, so thought is shaped to the needs of the creature to navigate the world that it is a part of.

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  110. "We don't need sky fairies, panpsychism, teleosemantics, etc do the job pretty well."

    True. But I think panpsychism is true anyway. ;-).

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  111. Anon

    You are agreeing to us, but you just so bad in interpretation you didn't notice XD, on the matter about thoughts.

    Anon, you surely have no idea what we mean by intentionality so what about shut your trap about it, since you will just do another freak show if you were to talk about the subject.

    And here we go again in the same we were...

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  112. "It’s you guys who apparently believe that thought is so disconnected from reality that it is entirely random without the intervention of the Magic Intentionality Fairy."

    Again, that sounds like occasionalism, which I don't think Feser and his readers endorse. You do you know what intentionality is?

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  113. What I don’t get is what your alternative is. Something, you feel, must account for the fact that cognitive processes are reliable, accurate, whatever. You don’t believe natural selection can do it

    No one needs to provide you with an alternative. The falsehood of your beliefs does not rely on one providing an alternative. That is just absurd. If that was the case, no philosophy or science would be possible.

    Second, what the EAAN is arguing which you're missing (again) is not that evolution, biological change over time (I would still raise objections to natural selection playing much or any role whatsoever - I mentioned Fodor's destructive critique yesterday but let's put that aside for now) can't provide one with reliable cognitive faculties, but rather that evolution in conjunction with naturalism is the problem. It's the conflation of the two that creates this epistemological mess that neither you or anyone so far has been able to overcome. All we ask in return is a rejection of naturalism. It's that simple. It's absurd. So let it go.

    Uh, that was my point, genius.

    You speak as if science can repair human cognitive faculties that are not directed at truth and somehow magically uncover through. That's why I said science is not magic. Simply put, if the human faculties are not operating contra to the claims of naturalism + darwinism not all the science in the world will save you.

    If the above paragraph is your point, then you agree with me and the discussion is over. If not, then you simply didn't understand what I am saying.

    Funny how you only cherry pick a couple of points to comment on though ;-)

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  114. "It’s you guys who apparently believe that thought is so disconnected from reality that it is entirely random without the intervention of the Magic Intentionality Fairy."

    Actually, I think Feser would argue that "directness" or "proto-intentionality" is present at every level of the natural world, without which thought and rationality wouldn't even be possible, contra naturalist metaphysics.

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  115. "WTF are you talking about? As far as I am concerned, thought and reality are so intimate that it’s probably illegal in Utah.

    It’s you guys who apparently believe that thought is so disconnected from reality that it is entirely random without the intervention of the Magic Intentionality Fairy."

    Bzzzzzt. Sorry, wrong answer.

    We do not believe that thought is so disconnected from reality that it's random without divine intervention. We think it's not.

    What we do claim is that on your outlook, thought and reality should be so disconnected that you're not by a longshot entitled to regard them as intimate. If you don't grasp that, then you don''t grasp the arguments we've been discussing in this thread.

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  116. Funny how you only cherry pick a couple of points to comment on though ;-)
    -------------------------------------

    If he were to comment on everything, the cognitive dissonance would kill him XD.

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  117. "He doesn't..."

    Eduardo, my apologies—I deleted and resubmitted my earlier post before I knew you'd replied to it. (I'd screwed up the HTML tagging.)

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  118. @atheist anon

    First let me advise you to drop the sky fairy talk. You're only making yourself look foolish and making it even more difficult to take you seriously.

    I, on the other hand, consider thought as simply another product of natural selection, and /thereby/ is shaped to reality. Just as the skeleton is shaped by the force of gravity, the need for locomtion and support, etc, so thought is shaped to the needs of the creature to navigate the world that it is a part of.

    You're a clear case of someone who doesn't know what his own beliefs entail. Thought has no real place in naturalism, sorry. Also, you need to catch up on your reading and see how the moderns (out of which modern naturalism was formed) created this ridiculous dualism of primary and secondary qualities, how they questioned causality, the whole phenomena vs noumena stuff and so on.

    On modern metaphysics (which is where your coming from with your naturalism meets scientism) the mental is so distant from reality the gap become unbridgeable.

    This statement is yet another assertion without argument, the very claim which we brought into question and have refuted here:

    consider thought as simply another product of natural selection, and /thereby/ is shaped to reality

    Wrong, it's shaped to biological usefulness, not reality as truth. If you mean the later you need to prove it. If you need the former you have proven our point. Choose.

    There's a big difference between a late "great ape" navigating in the jungle and the very ape grasping metaphysical truths or investigation the subatomic structure.

    I don't even know what to say to you anymore. It's like myself and everyone else is talking to a brick wall.

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  119. Scott

    it is cool, since you know exactly what I meant XD.

    U_U I am also betting that you agree with me.

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  120. "If he were to comment on everything, the cognitive dissonance would kill him XD."

    I think you have the wrong Anonymous there—understandably; I have a hard time keeping them straight too. I dowish the anonymous posters hereabouts would just choose some nondescript screen names so that we could tell them apart.

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  121. I think its time to abandon the discussion. Intentionality is an even bigger problem for materialistic-naturalism.

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  122. Scott said: "The key contention in the AfR is that if our thoughts, as events in the natural or physical world, are caused in some way that doesn't involve grounding in logic, then we never arrive at a conclusion because the evidence requires it."

    Right, I see that. Give me this contention, and I'd mark it as an argument from reason.

    "the contention [in the EAAN is] that [naturalists] can't (consistently) [explain how thought is related to brain activity] in any way that makes "reasoning" anything but a sheerly physical process in which relations of logical entailment and so forth play no causal role -- in other words, a sham"

    Sorry, I don't see that. Give me that contention, and I'd never in a million years mark it down as an EAAN. Where do you find this contention in any of the premises (one of) the Anonymous had divided the argument into?

    (a) what natural selection favors is behavior that is conducive to reproductive success.

    (b) Such behavior might be associated with true beliefs, but it might not be; it is certainly possible that adaptive behavior could be associated instead with beliefs that happen to be false.

    (c) A given individual belief would have about a 50-50 chance of being true.

    (d) And the probability that the preponderance of true beliefs over false ones would be great enough to make our cognitive faculties reliable is very small indeed.

    ?

    I don't think this brief presentation does justice to the EAAN. But even when filled up to make it - well, valid would be nice - I still utterly fail to see how this argument is in any way related to your contention. It's just speaking at a totally different level. Its contention is, ultimately, that natural (or artificial) selection cannot select for correct beliefs or faculties. It argues at the very mundane, scientific, level. And as a scientific argument, it's a bad, creationist, argument.

    "[the assumption that true belief and survivability have nothing to do with each other] is indeed false, but you can recognize and acknowledge its falsity only by your "sneaking in the assumption" ..."

    You're slipping into circular reasoning. Is the assumption false? Is it implicit in the argument? Then the argument is false. Then the naturalist has no problem "sneaking in" such assumptions (barring other arguments from reason etc.). (Not that I like that way of putting it; the AfR at best shows the naturalist's position is incoherent, it does not mean the naturalist should not resort to reason!)

    Is it not implicit in the argument? Then say so. Show why.

    Stick to the argument, argue ramifications after.

    --------

    @All: It appears to me we're stuck in a rut where we can't even agree on what the arguments are "really" about and we're flailing around without any direction.

    I believe at this point more formalism and rigor might be productive, but such a precise discussion will probably require more time and effort than I can afford at the moment. Sorry.

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  123. "U_U I am also betting that you agree with me."

    In everything of importance, yes.

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  124. I did?

    But I am seriously thinking that are at least 3 of them XD. Is freaking hard to know just whom is who XD.

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  125. Errg - forgot to sign my previous post. Sorry.

    Yair

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  126. What we do claim is that on your outlook, thought and reality should be so disconnected that you're not by a longshot entitled to regard them as intimate.

    Claim all you like. I explained how they are connected, if you can’t wrap your head around it, I do not really care.

    Hm, I realize that the reason you think thought under naturalism has to entirely random is a variation on the classic mistake of the ignorant who criticize natural selection as random (when in fact, of course, only half of it (variation) is random, selection is anything but).

    That the cosmos is in some sense the activity, manifestation, or creation of a rational mind; that intelligibility is built into it from the get-go; that when we think about X, our thought is in some way governed by the actual nature of X; and that it's a fundamental mistake to regard thought and objective reality as two separate realms.

    And this is different from the Magic Intentionality Fairy how, exactly? That is, it is a variant of supernaturalism: there is some kind of mind that is outside of the cosmos and generating it. Such an “explanation” can explain anything, and so explains nothing.

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  127. "Yeah I don't care to understand your argument, I have my opinion how things should be and if you don't accept them you are wrong..."

    "Right, the argument states that beliefs are blind to natural selection, so of course you must be thinking that natural selection is random when as a matter of fact it is a law." WOW!!!

    It can explain even universes that lack the characteristics of the universe he is talking about???

    It is not meant to be a scientific theory btw.

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  128. "What we do claim is that on your outlook, thought and reality should be so disconnected that you're not by a longshot entitled to regard them as intimate.

    Claim all you like. I explained how they are connected, if you can’t wrap your head around it, I do not really care.

    Hm, I realize that the reason you think thought under naturalism has to entirely random is a variation on the classic mistake of the ignorant who criticize natural selection as random (when in fact, of course, only half of it (variation) is random, selection is anything but).

    That the cosmos is in some sense the activity, manifestation, or creation of a rational mind; that intelligibility is built into it from the get-go; that when we think about X, our thought is in some way governed by the actual nature of X; and that it's a fundamental mistake to regard thought and objective reality as two separate realms.

    And this is different from the Magic Intentionality Fairy how, exactly? That is, it is a variant of supernaturalism: there is some kind of mind that is outside of the cosmos and generating it. Such an “explanation” can explain anything, and so explains nothing."

    See? This is why I don't think its worth it.

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  129. the AfR at best shows the naturalist's position is incoherent, it does not mean the naturalist should not resort to reason!)

    The conclusion also entails that he has no right to appeal to reason. You can of course still do by hijacking Theism, which you're welcome to. ;-)

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  130. Yair

    I agree but unfortunately I think the discussion is dead to our incapability to maintain the mininum of coherence among the debaters.

    Second, Anon seems to be desperate to not understand any critique of his position, so I quite sincirely think that, either you take his place or we give up on this worthless discussion...

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  131. I think I've had enough of misrepresented views, so I'm abandoning for real now.

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  132. BLS

    it depends on the proccess to analyse the truthness of a proposition, I think basically it will depend on our epistemology.

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  133. See? This is why I don't think its worth it.

    I agree.

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  134. "The conclusion also entails that he has no right to appeal to reason. You can of course still do by hijacking Theism, which you're welcome to."

    Well, yair is a panpsychist of sorts, that's how he avoids the materialist problems.

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  135. Its contention is, ultimately, that natural (or artificial) selection cannot select for correct beliefs or faculties. It argues at the very mundane, scientific, level. And as a scientific argument, it's a bad, creationist, argument.
    -------------------------------------

    Not really, you don't need to pressupose naturalism to do science, so saying that it is properly scientific wouldn't be accurate.

    Now Yair, you are the salvation, show us why it is bad... I will let slip the obvious ideological argument you did right after.

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  136. And this is different from the Magic Intentionality Fairy how, exactly? That is, it is a variant of supernaturalism: there is some kind of mind that is outside of the cosmos and generating it.

    You're talking to people, who know quite a bit of philosophy, history, linguistics, science and metaphysics. Not some religious nut-job on the street flailing about signs of God hates fags.

    You've been refuted in quite a civilized manner, and although your beliefs do not command the slightest of respect, given their absurdity, we've still tried to explain things to you in quote an eloquent fashion.

    You running around spouting caricatures in the style of sky fairy makes you look both petty and irrelevant, not to mention downright ignorant. If that's what you think these people mean hen they talk about a Divine Mind, then that only speak volumes of your ignorance if not stupidity.

    A world under Theism would be radically different than it's counter, naturalism. That much I think you should be able to comprehend. Now the Theist entails that his ultimate reality is in such-and-such a way. The naturalist claims that his ultimate reality is such-and-such a way. We have shown that your reality is absurd, a superstition to be blunt.

    Such an “explanation” can explain anything, and so explains nothing.

    Tu quoque, motherfucker (excuse my French but after all this, I'm in need for some comedic relief - hope you don't take it seriously that is).

    What I mean is, this accusation can easily be thrown right back at your metaphysic. Naturalism-of-the-gaps (can explain enything thus nothing). Matter (can explain enything thus nothing) although nobody ever told us what this magical thiing called matter is in the first place. Chaos (can explain enything thus nothing). Chance (can explain enything thus nothing).Power (can explain enything thus nothing). Natural selection (can explain enything thus nothing)... But wait a minute, who then explains nature... Well natural selection of course (I've seen it done, so don't even try to argue this).

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  137. " It argues at the very mundane, scientific, level. And as a scientific argument, it's a bad, creationist, argument."

    What this appears to ultimately mean is that it is not impossible that natural selection might produce generally reliable beliefs. Why this proves that the EEAN is a bad argument is hard to see? Have scientistic naturalism become so inane they will settle for the barest possibility of any aspect of their thought?

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  138. Well, yair is a panpsychist of sorts, that's how he avoids the materialist problems.

    I suppose then the issue would be if panpsychism could be accommodated by naturalism. Whether the two are not in conflict in other words. I think that's a controversial issue but a whole new story altogether.

    Regardless, my response was more of a tongue-in-cheek to yair, not necessarily a criticism. Hence the smiley face ;-)

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  139. "Tu quoque, motherfucker"

    I will put this in the back of my car XD.

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  140. You're talking to people, who know quite a bit of philosophy, history, linguistics, science and metaphysics. Not some religious nut-job on the street flailing about signs of God hates fags.

    That’s nice. As far as I can tell, their ideas are more or less equivalent (at least for the purposes of this argument), if expressed in loftier language.

    Scott believes in a disembodied mind that lives outside the cosmos and creates it. I’m sure his image of God is more sophisticated than the old-man-with-beard-on-a-throne of the fundamentalist, but it amounts to the same thing -- a mind that (unlike the minds we normally deal with) is not embodied in any physical substrate, and has powers beyond what those more quotidian embodied minds can do.

    If this being is so abstract and rarified that it is simply another name for nature or cosmos, then we don’t have an argument. If it’s a person, then we do, because now you are in Sky Fairy land again. I don’t see much middle ground.

    A world under Theism would be radically different than it's counter, naturalism.

    Maybe. All the evidence of evolution points to naturalism, but maybe all the stupid imperfections of living things were inserted by God as practical jokes.

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  141. All the evidence of evolution points to naturalism, but maybe all the stupid imperfections of living things were inserted by God as practical jokes.
    -------------------------------------

    Please show us that it is so.

    Tell us exactly what naturalism believes there is, then show that the evidence point to all those options...

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  142. Off the bat I know you will fail because you don't believe in any reliable way to know exactly what caused what, you know Hume's skepticism about knowing causes, and he was a naturalist.

    But naturalism don't believe that for instance Jupiter has caused a human to have evolved, however it might have been if you have no idea about what caused what, so it is actually wrong to say that the evidences related to evolution demonstrate naturalism.

    Second, you seem to think that either someone is naturalist or lives in Sky Fairy land where everything is magical, well that is some nice evidence of how ignorant you are about philosophy.

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  143. Right now I get your argument, you mean that whatever the fundamentalist believes is in essence the same thing Scott believes.

    Well is it???

    Second, I feel like for you, G*d is out of the question so basically you have an a priori belief that G*d is not allowed as knowledge, that is great but it is just your personal belief, and if you want put that in the discussion you will have to argue for it.

    Now even if you were to say that G*d explains everything, that doesn't seem to be a problem, if people infer that there is a G*d and that it does explains everything then what??? Because you could use it to explain anything?? well the other anon gave you a bunch of other classes of thing that could in theory expalin everything and anything but nonetheless I bet you believe in them. Like for instance... matter, or fields.

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  144. Thread jack: In the First Way I am unsure about why the four fundamental forces (or perhaps some 'more fundamental' unifying, natural force) can't serve as a substitute for Aquinas' uncaused cause/pure act. Can you help me with my (perhaps daft) problem? Thanks.

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  145. Regarding my previous problem: I understand that the causes in question are vertical/per se, I just don't see why the naturalist can't argue for this unified fundamental force as the uncaused cause.

    I like the First Way but this seems to be a bit of a stumbling block for me at the moment, although I get the feeling that I am missing something obvious.

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  146. "I’m sure his image of God is more sophisticated than the old-man-with-beard-on-a-throne of the fundamentalist,"

    Christian fundamentalists may not use the term, but to them God is also the unmoved mover outside time and space. This other anon doesn't even seem to know much about the kind of Christian he is portraying all Christians to be.

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  147. Sure smells like 4chan here.

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  148. "Thread jack: In the First Way I am unsure about why the four fundamental forces (or perhaps some 'more fundamental' unifying, natural force) can't serve as a substitute for Aquinas' uncaused cause/pure act. Can you help me with my (perhaps daft) problem? Thanks"

    If pure act exists, then nothing can substitute it, because there can't be more than one distinct occurrence of pure act. If the four fundamental forces of our universe were purely actual, they wouldn't be "four" separate things. Though I'm not an expert on this stuff, perhaps one of the regular commenters can direct you to one of Feser's old blogposts or something.

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  149. "Off the bat I know you will fail because you don't believe in any reliable way to know exactly what caused what, you know Hume's skepticism about knowing causes, and he was a naturalist.

    But naturalism don't believe that for instance Jupiter has caused a human to have evolved, however it might have been if you have no idea about what caused what, so it is actually wrong to say that the evidences related to evolution demonstrate naturalism."

    And now he's going to run into Oderberg's rock cycle...

    I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Sober yet.

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  150. 'If pure act exists, then nothing can substitute it, because there can't be more than one distinct occurrence of pure act. If the four fundamental forces of our universe were purely actual, they wouldn't be "four" separate things. Though I'm not an expert on this stuff, perhaps one of the regular commenters can direct you to one of Feser's old blogposts or something.'

    Hello anon, it's anon here. I appreciate what you are saying about the four fundamental forces, but what if there were some natural unifying force that was 'more fundamental'? Would this be an adequate substitute?

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  151. "a mind that (unlike the minds we normally deal with) is not embodied in any physical substrate, and has powers beyond what those more quotidian embodied minds can do."

    Truth is what fits into an already-existing system. That system contains assumptions about language, reality in general, logical relations between terms, reality and language, criteria for evaluating what is presented to consciousness, and so on.

    That system has no physical substrate, since it is universal and basic to parsing out things like the distinction between what is and is not a physical substrate.

    There can be no requirement for a physical substrate for everything that is considered real, because this would mean that requirement *itself* would have to have a physical substrate to ground its authoritative status as the arbitration standard for everything that's real, including itself. And then that fact *itself* would also have to have a physical substrate, and so on.

    So the same problems exist for the system of necessary assumptions of thought, as a unified all-encompassing system for determining what is real, as is alleged about God as an ultimate disembodied mind.

    That, in turn, prompts the question: What is the physical substrate for the entire architectonic we assume and refer to as the standard for deciding what is real, what requires physical substrates, what is a mind, and what is a person?

    If a physical substrate is not needed for this entire system itself, then where does that system get the presumed authority for arbitrating that issue itself with regard to everything else including minds?

    And if the system of standards doesn't itself require a physical substrate, then what is the basis of this self-exemption?

    While chiding believers in God for allegedly blind metaphysical assumptions, atheists might want to examine a few of their own.

    For atheists to continue on and on without even any mention of these kinds of criterial and background assumptions, while accusing theists of lacking in these same areas, is the pinnacle of intellectual hypocrisy. Dismissive metaphysical handwaving, as if it's some kind of magical argued response, won't get rid of the strong smell of blood in the water here.

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  152. Eduardo said: "Tell us exactly what naturalism believes there is, then show that the evidence point to all those options..."

    This is why I love the internet. "Write a textbook, then write a library..." :)

    "Now Yair, you are the salvation, show us why it is bad... I will let slip the obvious ideological argument you did right after."

    Why should I bother showing you an argument is bad, if no one here believes this is the argument we're discussing? I don't think Scott would agree that the scientific argument is the core of the EAAN; he thinks an AfR-like "contention" is.

    But you know what - I feel like venting some steam. So I'll present the outline of the EAAN as I see it and why it's bad; no, not a details argument why it's bad, that'll take much more than venting off steam would.




    From my perspective, it appears like Plantinga has confused you all. You read (first-hand or through intermediates) him saying that his argument is based on Lewis' argument from reason, so you think that it is. It isn't. You read all the high talk of sophisticated philosophy - warrant, defeaters, spiphenomenalism, semantic epiphenomenalism... it all sounds really impressive. But you don't notice it all has basically nothing to do with his actual argument.

    The EAAN, as I see it, is essentially two thesis:

    The No Go Theorem: Evolution under natural selection cannot create reliable faculties or beliefs.

    The Naturalism Destroyer Argument: As naturalism is committed to evolution under natural selection to be the creator of faculties and corresponding beliefs, naturalism is inconsistent.

    When you remove the all the red herrings, strawmen, obfuscation, dead ends, redundancies, and so on - this is what you're left with. That's it. All the rest is just gobbledygook. All the talk about how precisely the naturalist conceives of the causal role of beliefs, for example, is just a collage of red herrings and strawmen: under all forms of naturalism the causal role is identical in practice, even if not metaphysically. (Yes, "all" includes eliminative materialism, even though "beliefs" don't even exist as-such on this view.)

    Feser himself all but said that this is the structure himself: "Now if evolution is only part of the story of the origin of [X] ... For example, if there is a God...".

    This is just the standard creationist argument structure. "Evolution cannot create X, therefore God did". You can replace X with "the flagellum", "the eye", or anything else - including, in this case, "reliable faculties and beliefs". This makes the EAAN a creationist argument.

    It doesn't necessarily make it a bad creationist argument - there's nothing bad with that argument structure. It's valid, if you can actually establish the two parts. What makes it a bad creationist argument is mostly that - like all creationist arguments - the no-go thesis doesn't fairly consider the complexity and features of evolution in the real world. Or, for that matter, of even evolutionary algorithms. It fails, for example, to truly consider the long-term conjoined evolution of both beliefs and faculties, or to consider the affects of a noisy, varied, and surprising environment. It fails to construct a real model and do some real simulations and calculations, let alone a somewhat-realistic model or calculation, or establish some controls and sanity tests. It's just bad, bad science.

    Like all other creationist arguments, the EAAN underestimates the amazing power of evolution while at the same time failing to realize its true weaknesses and to acknowledge their signatures in the faculties we have in practice.

    But I don't know why I'm wasting my time telling you all this. I'm just venting off steam here.

    Yair

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  153. Yair

    You saying I should just let you or anon off hook... Fuck no! XD.

    Well I wrote the argument up thread. You are wrong, you didn't read his arguemnt, he never says that evolution can't create reliable cognitive faculties, but the very system that naturalism thinks that a belief is made of has no reason to create true beliefs based on evolutionary theory...

    Thanks, for being as bad as the others, this discussion is over, the opponents dont even know what the argument is about... Now on to live my life and let you naturalists with the belief that you understand the argument based solely in your gut feeling and fear of plantinga's relation to creationists, for the fact that 3 of you can produce the same response, I commend you.

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  154. "The No Go Theorem: Evolution under natural selection cannot create reliable faculties or beliefs."

    IIRC, Plantinga says its unlikely, not impossible. But that's my issue with it, I want to know how he arrived at that conclusion. How unlikely, exactly?

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  155. And take a deep breath Eduardo, no need to go after Yair like that, he's not linton or anon-atheist.

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  156. BLS

    search for #1 in the combox, comments from 1-200. Read all the #'s, that is Plantinga's argument, the whole shit.

    Come back, tell me if you still have doubts... Then we go from there.

    .... Dunno, I might apologize for going crazy, but nothing guarantees that Yair will live up to those apologies...

    If you want, i bring the part of the argument here, then we discuss.

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  157. @Yair

    >You read (first-hand or through intermediates) him saying that his argument is based on Lewis' argument from reason.

    I believe the phrase Feser originally used was "related argument" and he explains some of the differences between it vs EAAN.

    Hey buddy don't try to bullshit a bullshiter. Just saying......

    >Feser himself all but said that this is the structure himself: "Now if evolution is only part of the story of the origin of [X] ... For example, if there is a God...".

    >This is just the standard creationist argument structure. "Evolution cannot create X, therefore God did".

    Nobody here says "Evolution cannot create X" and anybody fimilar with Feser's writings cannot honestly say that Feser says this.

    I'm afraid your sole understand of teleology is Paley vs Darwin and you have no concept of Final Causality or Aristotian Teleology.

    I am also afraid you are under the common fundamentalist Atheist delusion Plantingia argument is a polemic against Evolution. It is clearly not to those of us who have read it. It is a polemic against naturalism since Plantinga & Feser have argued within their respective philosophical traditions that Evolution is completely compatible with Christian Theism. Indeed Feser has even gone so far as to say Evolution slightly helps the Fifth Way, the argument from Final Causality(which too many Atheists like yourself tend to equivocate with Paley's stillborn bullshit design argument).

    So I am with Eduardo in principle. I don't doubt your good will even if I was hard on you in the past. Punishing you for Oerter's mistakes.

    This is not an ID forum even if a small minority (like Vincent) dabel in that stuff. As far as I know only George R is a creationist.

    The rest at least in principle believe Evolution is compatible with God.

    But the point of Plantinga's argument is it might not be compatible fully with Naturalism and or it might lead to some very big philosophical problems.

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  158. It is simple (to me, because I am a freak of nature) to begin things, first just what is a belief in naturalism?

    It must be a structure in the brain, now Yair is panpsychist or whatever you write the word, so he might disagree but as stated before, he would not even classify as a damn naturalist even though he thinks he will.

    If it is an structure in the brain then exactly what is the RELATION between beliefs and behavior. Now, in Naturalism, natural selection "selects" what exactly? As far as I know it selects the one that survives and reproduce itself in an efficient way. So Natural selection "selects" the being that can fuck more efficiently, that can out run their predators if there are any, that can survive the environmental conditions, and other stuff that helps it send his genes to the next generation.

    Now do you freaking need true beliefs to succeed in any of these??? If to survive you have to do actions A to Z, do you necessarily NEED to exactly know truth or reality or you just need SOMETHING, doesn't matter what, that will produce actions A to Z.

    Now Plantinga offer four possibilities to just what a belief could be in naturalism, but who knows there might be more options and if there are I would be glad to hear. 3 of them it doesn't matter at all what beliefs are connected to the actions and in the last one where beliefs are adaptive, and casually connect in structure and content we could create all sorts of believes that generate actions A to Z, and these many beliefs are contradictory amongst themselves, so it means that many beliefs are false, so even if the belief is connected in terms of structure, content anare adaptive it doesn't follow that they NEED to be reliable.

    If there is only one belief, then all creatures share the same set of beliefs and we all agree to each other, which is false at least in my life it is and I don't give a F if it is not in your life (To use scientism-retarded-Anon's way of conducting an argument).

    So there are false beliefs and we all agree with this because I want it to be so. Now all false beliefs were produced by the mechanisms of evolution in naturalism, so we can't blame on any other thing to produce beliefs.

    Now if evolution created all sorts of wrong beliefs, and you naturalists believe it did, so you naturalists have empirical evidence that evolution doesn't create mostly true beliefs. So what about al types of beliefs like the belief that I can know the world? Well if there is empirical evidence that evolution doesn't previlige truth, but only what allows to survive, then I have no reason to infer that this belief has any reliability to it.

    Now this kills the argument too within naturalism but not without taking naturalism with it, if it succeeds of course.

    -----------------------------------

    Now what are the relations of beliefs and behavior... that is the crux of the problem that NONE of you have even tried to criticize.

    Or how Natural selection selects beliefs taking in consideration just what a belief is.

    And no.. talking about the wonders of natural selection will not do.

    Now the whole by-product selection may help, but since Hrafn has bled his brakes and drove to the ravine, I welcome any monsters that can show me that.

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  159. Now if you want to do science to rest the case, you will have to cook up WITHIN naturalism a model forjust what a belief is.

    Going straight to experiments means nothing because the experiment itself doesn't pressupose naturalism, so no way to guarantee that the experiment will show what is true in naturalism.

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  160. >The EAAN, as I see it, is essentially two thesis:

    > The No Go Theorem: Evolution under natural selection cannot create reliable faculties or beliefs.

    > The Naturalism Destroyer Argument: As naturalism is committed to evolution under natural selection to be the creator of faculties and corresponding beliefs, naturalism is inconsistent.

    I reply: Not even close to the EAAN.

    If I deny God tomorrow I must conclude you are not that familiar with the argument.

    BTW I see no reason why as a Classic Theist with Thomistic tendencies why I can't believe via the classic doctrine of Divine Providence why God could not have used natural selection to create within us reliable faculties or beliefs.


    OTOH given metaphysical naturalism I might believe thought it is possible NS can give us reliable faculties it is likely that if it happen that likelyhood is inscrutably low given NS is not concerned with correct or incorrect belief.

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  161. "Scott believes in a disembodied mind that lives outside the cosmos and creates it. I’m sure his image of God is more sophisticated than the old-man-with-beard-on-a-throne of the fundamentalist, but it amounts to the same thing...

    If this being is so abstract and rarified that it is simply another name for nature or cosmos, then we don’t have an argument. If it’s a person, then we do, because now you are in Sky Fairy land again. I don’t see much middle ground."


    Last I heard, that 'middle ground' was called 'analogical language'. I'm sure the Thomists here can elaborate.

    Anonymous' dilemma sounds very much like what I've heard called 'The Dennett Dilemma':

    "Either your God is nothing but an anthropomorphic projection or it is is so devoid of recognizable attributes as to be meaningless."

    (http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2009/07/dennett-on-the-deformation-of-the-god-concept.html)

    Personally, I wonder what the problem is supposed to be with 'abstract' or 'rarified' ideas. After all, aren't 'the collapse of the Wave Function' or 'Gravity' rather abstract ideas, too? I'm doubtful that we can consistently attack theism for being too 'abstract', whilst accepting the increasingly abstract and counter-intuitive findings of Science. If there's something wrong with theism, it can't simply be that it's abstract.

    To put it one way, if God absolutely must be some 'Man in the Sky' character to avoid collapsing into meaninglessness, why not say the same of Gravity? Why not argue that Gravity just must be some superhero who flies around, throwing things downwards, on pain of being too 'abstract' and 'rarified' to be meaningful?

    Let me guess; the difference is that Gravity isn't meant to have a 'mind' in some sense, right? It's okay to propose things without minds, because minds are complex. Is that it? Something tells me that this leads us right into the metaphysics of mind.

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  162. @BLS: "But that's my issue with it, I want to know how he arrived at that conclusion. How unlikely, exactly?"

    Yes, improbable. I exaggerated. :)

    He arrived at it by considering the possibilities at the abstract level, and deducing the probabilities. Rather than from a real evolutionary standpoint, that proceeds from given conditions and evolves. At least, that's his main argument (under the principle of charity - brushing aside other mistakes and red herrings): (#47) "there are many belief-desire combinations that will lead to the adaptive action; in many of those combinations, the beliefs are false."

    This is very much like the standard creationist argument that the evolution of a protein is improbable since there are lots of genetic possibilities to code for a protein of that length, and only a scant few of them will....

    In both cases, not only is the actual evolutionary history of these structures not considered, but even on the theoretical point it is not realized that this a priori probability has virtually nothing to do with the probability or plausibility of developing this protein/belief-desire-pair in practice in an evolution-like algorithm.

    @ Eduardo: "he never says that evolution can't create reliable cognitive faculties"

    That's his point. Your whole quote revolves around "the probability in question", which is defined and estimated in #15 as "the probability that our cognitive faculties are reliable, given contemporary evolutionary theory, is low" (Removing obfuscation of "naturalism" - as if contemporary evolutionary theory incorporates divine intervention! Phah! - and "objective"). If you can't see that this is equivalent, in scientific terms, to saying that evolution can't create reliable cognitive faculties - then, well, things are bad.

    It amazes me that Plantinga is not only so confused, but so confusing. That you all can't see through his red herrings and absurd dichotomies and exaggerations to get to the heart of the argument.

    Again - I don't think Plantinga's version of the argument is a good one. I think it's obscuring and deceiving more than it's arguing. I therefore think it's wrong to focus on his exact words. The naive use of the word "true" in the text, for example, is appalling. It implies that believing that objects are continuous is "false", since they're mostly vacuum, hence it's a false belief! That's just a wrong-headed way to approach the question of whether our faculties are reliable. That's what all the discussion of the "manifest image" and so on above was all about. Plantinga's phrasing just misses the point on so many levels, that it is really a very poor basis to argue from.

    Be that as it may, if you insist on concentrating on that pile of stinking rhetoric - the main part of the No Go Theorem is in #45 (say). It's bonkers. The main part of the Naturalism Destroying Argument is in #15, with the missing parts of #7 building the other half of it.

    Yair

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  163. Yair

    I don't think it is scientific because:

    "Now if you want to do science to rest the case, you will have to cook up WITHIN naturalism a model forjust what a belief is.

    Going straight to experiments means nothing because the experiment itself doesn't pressupose naturalism, so no way to guarantee that the experiment will show what is true in naturalism. "

    It is not the same thing, because if he were to try to do an experiment straight away it would prove nothing XD.

    What you have to do is WITHIN naturalism say what will be a belief and then what the relation of that belief iwth behavior.

    Or show that natural selection can choose true beliefs WITHIN naturalism.

    I don't see why you need to go to the lab until you establish that.

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  164. Yair,

    This is very much like the standard creationist argument that the evolution of a protein is improbable since there are lots of genetic possibilities to code for a protein of that length, and only a scant few of them will....

    For one thing, that's not a "standard creationist argument" - please don't be one of those people who pretends that every argument that points out a given problem with mainstream evolutionary theory is "creationist". Or if you do, please concede that all the various criticisms of mainstream evolutionary theory in the past that resulted in mainstream models being severely amended or discarded were also "creationist" arguments.

    Second, no, it's actually nothing like that. With those arguments, an empirical case is being made again specific results, usually having to do with complexity. For Plantinga, complexity doesn't matter, nor is it being questioned. He is not doubting that evolution can find some successful route - he is arguing that, given the spread of the kinds of success that can be expected under the conjunction of evolution and naturalism, then the likelihood of our congnitive powers being reliable is either low or inscrutable. That's it.

    If you can't see that this is equivalent, in scientific terms, to saying that evolution can't create reliable cognitive faculties - then, well, things are bad.

    It amazes me that Plantinga is not only so confused, but so confusing. That you all can't see through his red herrings and absurd dichotomies and exaggerations to get to the heart of the argument.


    Yair, what you are saying here is that these two claims are equivalent:

    "The odds of X happening are low."
    "It is impossible for X to happen."

    And guess what? They're not equivalent.

    That's why your claim is being denied here: Plantinga is not saying that it's impossible for evolution to produce reliable cognitive faculties. First, it's blindingly obvious that he couldn't be saying as much full stop because Plantinga believes that on Theism + Evolution, evolution could produce these faculties, even without a direct intervention. The system could simply be biased. The system could be ultimately biased but proximately non-biased.

    Second, even where E+N is concerned, Plantinga is entirely capable of allowing that, in principle, E+N can produce reliable cognitive faculties. *It's simply that the odds of this taking place are low or inscrutable.* Again, focus on what "low" means. Focus on what "inscrutable" means. You accuse Plantinga of being confusing, but so far the only one who's getting confused is you.

    The fact that you say that you think it's wrong to focus on Plantinga's exact words is telling. You know why? Because if we actually pay attention to what he said, then your criticism on this front is gone. No, he did not say evolution is incapable of such and such. He's talking about odds. But you really want him to be saying it's impossible, apparently in part so you can shove him over with the creationists. So, you just decide that that's what he actually said.

    No go. He said what he did. Deal with it.

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  165. The No Go Theorem: Evolution under natural selection cannot create reliable faculties or beliefs.

    Wrong for the reasons already explained. Evolution can, according to Plantinga, create reliable faculties or beliefs. E+T certainly can. E+N can. But the odds of this happening are simply low.

    The Naturalism Destroyer Argument: As naturalism is committed to evolution under natural selection to be the creator of faculties and corresponding beliefs, naturalism is inconsistent.

    Wrong again. Again, Plantinga accepts that E+T could produce reliable faculties and beliefs. Also wrong, because naturalism is not committed to evolution under natural selection. Naturalism is incredibly plastic and poorly defined: many, many, many things are capable of being compatible with it in principle. That it happens to be the most overwhelmingly popular option right now means nothing.

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  166. As I have stated before.

    We just have to show that natural selection will choose mostly true beliefs IN NATURALISM

    or make a relation of beliefs and behavior that always turn out true beliefs.

    Or accept that we know nothing of nature and therefore no reason to believe in Naturalism.

    Anyays good bye people, I got visits and I wont be able to post anymore for a while XD.

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  167. Hey BLS

    Thanks for that Drestke search link. Ed's very first paragraph clarified an intentionality issue for me, and the second paragraph now has me running to the Aquinas book to see his defense of the principle of proportionate causality.

    Scott

    Not sure if I understood the comment about arguing the opposite. I agreed with you, rewrote a statement, and then proceeded to make general comments about naturalism. So that last was not directed at you or your previous comments.

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  168. I'm a bit late to the party, but a solid article as always.

    One objection that Prof. Feser didn't cover is Churchland's claim, which the now-vanished commenter Touchstone liked to repeat, that science occurs on a pre-belief level. This is to say that all science is based on "percepts"--non-interpreted, pre-conscious maps that the brain always (already?) presupposes. On this view, everything that we do consciously is in fact accidental, but science earns the status of a "happy accident" that has produced a large set of results. It cannot be justified, but it can still be performed without worry that it is somehow "wrong", since it's based on infallible percepts that occur before any belief can be formed.

    This view is not obviously self-refuting, since it claims to be based on A) the accidental, selected-for discovery of science and B) the accidental, selected-for discovery of percepts. This means that it claims merely to accept something that is presupposed by all logic and philosophy, and so it cannot be called a belief but merely a conformity to reality. As a result, it is also a potent challenge to Plantinga's EAAN, as much as I love that argument, since it allows the brain's "number crunching"--its computation--to eat everything that might be considered a belief. Its core problem is that the brain does not literally contain the outside world, but rather reduces it to a series of electrical impulses. Without a coherent framework of teleology/intentionality to support this system, it collapses into something very much like Jacques Derrida's nihilistic Kantianism, which in turn casts doubt on every scientific concept or practice--including the percepts that were supposed to solve the problems raised by the EAAN.

    I don't know if anyone in these almost 400 comments raised Churchland's percept argument, but I figured I'd toss this out there just in case.

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  169. Anonymous:"Yair, what you are saying here is that these two claims are equivalent:

    "The odds of X happening are low."
    "It is impossible for X to happen."

    And guess what? They're not equivalent."

    I'm saying that they're scientifically equivalent. And within certain limits, they are. But this is getting us into wider epistemological issues and besides the point.

    Nevertheless, as I said above, I exaggerated.

    "That's why your claim is being denied here: Plantinga is not saying that it's impossible for evolution to produce reliable cognitive faculties. First, it's blindingly obvious that he couldn't be saying as much full stop because Plantinga believes that on Theism + Evolution, evolution could produce these faculties,"

    I think that's a mis-use of the term "evolution". Whether you like it or not, God is not part of mainstream evolutionary theory, neither by direct intervention nor by miraculous harmony. Standard theory and practice is naturalistic, in that (abnomral) sense, so that adding the explicit assumption of "naturalism" is only obscuring the issues.

    Nevertheless, let's skip this rhetorical hurdle by changing the wording.

    We have then,

    > The No Go Theorem: Evolution under naturalistic natural selection is ulikely to create reliable faculties or beliefs.

    > The Naturalism Destroyer Argument: As naturalism is committed to evolution under naturalistic natural selection to be the creator of faculties and corresponding beliefs, naturalism is self-defeating. (Theism, on the other hand, rules!)

    Now - is this not the structure of the argument?

    "if we actually pay attention to what he said, then your criticism on this front is gone. No, he did not say evolution is incapable of such and such. He's talking about odds. But you really want him to be saying it's impossible, "

    I don't care, "impossible" "improbabile" - really not much of a difference for me (you guys forget I'm also a Bayesian).

    My reasons for despising his words lie elsewhere, as I already explained.

    I'll also not refer again to the fact that this is a creationist argument - it is, but that's irrelevant to its merit (as I pointed out).

    So - let's move on.

    Is the above revised structure the argument's overall structure? If so, we could move on to examine the argument for the first thesis, to see just how misguided it is.

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  170. Sure yair move on to show what a belief is in naturalism and how natural selection can choose mostly true beliefs...

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  171. And remember that plantinga offers 4 possibilities to what the relation of belief and behavior might be in naturalism... you didn't even touched that.

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  172. Yair,

    I'm saying that they're scientifically equivalent. And within certain limits, they are. But this is getting us into wider epistemological issues and besides the point.

    No, they are not scientifically equivalent. What do you think that would even mean? That science forbids low-probability events from occurring? Simply saying "Well I'm a Bayesian" doesn't justify it.

    Whether you like it or not, God is not part of mainstream evolutionary theory, neither by direct intervention nor by miraculous harmony. Standard theory and practice is naturalistic,

    Neither is God/gods excluded by mainstream evolutionary theory. It is completely silent on God's existence or non-existence, or action and inaction. Plantinga makes it clear that when he targets evolutionary theory, he is targeting the conjunction of E+N. E on its own is not conjoined with N. That's a point of the EAAN.

    Now - is this not the structure of the argument?

    No-go is still wrong, because the odds are either low or inscrutable. And inscrutable does not mean low.

    What's more, it needs to be stressed that what E+N is unlikely to create are cognitive faculties that are reliable in the aggregate. The claim is not that, over the course of evolution, the odds are low or inscrutable that the result will be *a* or *some* true beliefs/reliable faculties will be created at some point. A stopped clock can be right twice a day, and so on. It's about aggregate results.

    The Naturalism Destroyer Argument is still wrong.

    First because, as mentioned, naturalism is not tied to evolutionary theory. It may be extremely popular nowadays, but if life forms came about by means, proximately or ultimately, other than evolution by natural selection, it's not obvious that the result is "non-naturalism". Again, this is one reason why Plantinga *conjoins* evolution and naturalism, why the argument focuses on E+N. Because N can be detached from E and vice-versa. Naturalism is not self-defeating as per the argument - it's defeated on conjunction with E.

    Second, "natural selection" is not the problem for Plantinga. On E+T, you can still have selection taking place. It's simply that the system will be skewed due to various reasons. Skewing is either not allowed or vastly harder to justify under E+N.

    Third, theism has nothing to do with the EAAN in terms of the argument itself.

    I'll also not refer again to the fact that this is a creationist argument - it is, but that's irrelevant to its merit (as I pointed out).

    It's not, unless you're saying that accepting evolution and natural selection is compatible with creationism.

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  173. It's not, unless you're saying that accepting evolution and natural selection is compatible with creationism.

    Actually, you'd also have to say that quite a lot of evolutionary theory has been advanced and justified by creationists. Brother Mendel alone would suffice to get quite a lot of the project regarded as 'built on creationist theories' if you want to play that game.

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  174. @Anonymous: "No, they are not scientifically equivalent."

    Yes, they are. No, not gonna argue the point. Another day, another argument.

    "It's not [a creationist argument], unless you're saying that accepting evolution and natural selection is compatible with creationism."

    Under your definitions of evolution - they are compatible, yes. Calling it "theistic evolution" doesn't mean its not creationism.

    And I'm not gonna argue that, either.

    "Neither is God/gods excluded by mainstream evolutionary theory. It is completely silent on God's existence or non-existence, or action and inaction. "

    His actions are. No, not gonna argue that either. But it does raise the important point that Plantinga is conflating naturalism with non-theism. I'll amend the phrasing accordingly, as I can see it saving me confusions down the road.

    "No-go is still wrong, because the odds are either low or inscrutable. And inscrutable does not mean low."

    I'm going to ignore that, for reasons that will hopefully become obvious later.

    "What's more, it needs to be stressed that what E+N is unlikely to create are cognitive faculties that are reliable in the aggregate."

    Let's take that as implicit.

    "First because, as mentioned, naturalism is not tied to evolutionary theory."

    Very well, I'll weaken it.

    "Third, theism has nothing to do with the EAAN in terms of the argument itself."

    It is secondary; I'll remove references to it.

    So, this leaves us with:

    > The No Go Theorem: Evolution under non-theistic natural selection is ulikely to create reliable faculties or beliefs.

    > The Naturalism Destroyer Argument: As presently naturalism strongly adheres to evolution, and as naturalism is committed to allowing only non-theistic natural selection (or something else entirely) to be the creator of faculties and corresponding beliefs, present-naturalism is self-defeating: either non-theistic evolution is wrong, or the probability that our faculties or beliefs are true is low.

    Any further tweaks? From anyone?

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  175. Evolution under naturalism ... not non-theistic XD.

    Second, so you mean that if God has something to do with evolution than it is creationist okay... we are all creationists here then, even though this is a very sly trick of you atheists, to call us creationists just to gain political advantage, as dishonest as expect of a new atheist =_=, see BLS, you can never trust the escarlate A.

    ... Just shut up with trying to formulate whatever shit, and just say the relation of belief and behavior of shut the fuck up and let the conversation die already!

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  176. >Under your definitions of evolution - they are compatible, yes. Calling it "theistic evolution" doesn't mean its not creationism.

    Theistic Evolution is no more "Creationism" then Positive Atheism is a "religion".

    Fallacy of equivocation.

    Thought the last post is a bit of an improvement.

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  177. Yes, they are. No, not gonna argue the point. Another day, another argument.

    No, they're not. Feel free to be wrong, I see no need to discuss this further either.

    Under your definitions of evolution - they are compatible, yes. Calling it "theistic evolution" doesn't mean its not creationism.

    And I'm not gonna argue that, either.


    Under the scientific definition they are compatible, because science keeps as far away as possible from metaphysical claims. In the case of evolution, it's far enough to make exactly what I say valid.

    Again, no need to argue it. What I say happens to be true.

    Let's take that as implicit.

    No, let's not take that as implicit. Why should we? It's part of Plantinga's argument, and since the whole point of your asking these questions is to clarify things to make it easier to discuss, that's an important part.

    Again: Plantinga's EAAN is compatible with the claim that, during the course of evolution, some true beliefs will be had, or even to a degree that some reliable cognitive faculties will exist. The question revolves around what kind of aggregate results you're going to expect to get.

    Here's a good way to put things: it's even, given the EAAN, entirely possible in principle to have a population of intelligent beings whose cognitive faculties are reliable and largely report the truth. It simply will be the case that the likelihood of this coming to pass is low or inscrutable.

    Likewise, you can have a population of intelligent beings whose cognitive faculties are unreliable. The odds of this coming to pass is high or inscrutable.

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  178. Equivocation???

    Riiiight, it is dishonest, do you really think he is dumb to not understand what he meant???

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  179. Has anyone yet, Yair excepted, given a concrete example of what Eric Schliesser might have meant with. " the human faculties that are being deployed are being deployed in non-standard and even extremely rarefied fashion in science ..."

    Such that, " ... within science one does not disagree with folk logic (one simply does not give a damn about the folk and its notions) ..."

    Or, has it been generally concluded that he was merely using manifesto like expressions in order to refer to phenomena not all that extraordinary ... despite the self-congratulatory rhetoric shrouding his claims.

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  180. Another thing.

    I'm going to ignore that, for reasons that will hopefully become obvious later.

    No, you don't get to pre-emptively change what someone's argument clearly states on the grounds that you think it's wrong and you plan on eventually showing that it's wrong, so you're just going to go ahead and correct it now.

    It's low or inscrutable.

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  181. Another rhetorical question for the Gallery ... Has anyone perceived a certain parallel in form between the earlier argument over the notion of "nothing" and the discussion of science practitioner super powers - or at least super faculties? Yeah Ok, that latter characterization might be stretching it somewhat.

    But the point is that in advancing these propositions there seems to be an amazing amount of what should be embarrassingly hyperbolic banner waving done - and which in the case of the claims made about "something from nothing" are admitted - as much for the purpose of garnering or arresting attention, as conveying a sober and accurate conviction.

    One of the things I most appreciate about Feser's blog is his careful and measured habit of exposition, despite the occasional touch of pugnaciousness.

    One of the most disappointing things about "the other side" in large measure (a side with which I sometimes agree in principle or substance), is the grindingly autistic and geekish bombast, completely unapologetic in delivery, and nauseating to witness in an adult man.

    When did rational American men begin to argue like that? The tone, and I emphasize "tone" here, is similar to that found in slogging through the smirking petulance of Lenin or Marx. We know what they were, and their psychology, so I guess it's to be expected there.

    But what has happened here?

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  182. Rank Sophist, wouldn't Churchland's argument fall victim to the argument from reason itself? Does it note cut off our knowledge from logical causation? Hence it is self-refuting.

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  183. Other anon,

    Whatever Rank says, he was there targeting the EAAN, not the argument from reason. They're not the same thing, even if they're related.

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  184. It's true that, if I remember correctly, Churchland was targeting the EAAN exclusively and not the AfR. I'm not sure that the AfR could refute Churchland's argument, though. All Churchland has to do is claim that the logic of the AfR is built on pre-conscious percepts and "brain mapping", which science has discovered. As an eliminative materialist, he's already bitten the bullet on all logic and consciousness being illusory--and so this is no big loss for him.

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  185. When did rational American men begin to argue like that?

    What makes you assume that any particular participant in this discussion is American, or male for that matter?

    Anyway, you seem to projecting on behalf of Feser, whose style tends toward the snigger. Marx, whatever you think of his thought, could be a fantastic writer at times. I highly doubt you've read much of him.

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  186. But surely that would simply be incoherent. If he cannot appeal to rational inference to back up his argument, then it is surely not a rational argument. He is irrefutable in the sense that every lunatic in the asylum is, in a sense, irrefutable.

    To say he is targeting only the EEAN doesn't mean he can become incoherent, which is what I mean when I say he falls victim to the argument from reason.

    I intuite there are many other problems with the argument as presented. But I'll have to think about it some more. Perhaps, Dr.Feser will comment on it.

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  187. The snigger and the sneer are the hallmarks of liberalism and liberal rationalism, and have been since the 18th century. Someone people might think it is righteous indignation and bleeding hearts that tends to mark them out, but I think it far more the case that the sneer, absent of real intellectual superiority and knowledge, that has marked out the liberal since Voltaire.

    The traditionalist may scorn and mock, like Aristophanes or Swift, but he does not often simply sneer.

    I cannot claim great acquintance with Marx, but I have certainly read parts of his work. He was capable of good prose, but I would not say he was outstanding.

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  188. But surely that would simply be incoherent. If he cannot appeal to rational inference to back up his argument, then it is surely not a rational argument. He is irrefutable in the sense that every lunatic in the asylum is, in a sense, irrefutable.

    It's fairly bizarre, but I'm not sure it qualifies as a fallacy. His "rational justification" is just the percept-based knowledge of science, which is based on objective, empirical observations (in his view) that are prior to and the ground of all logic and interpretation. Since he claims that everything has this same basis, which is to say that empirical knowledge is everything and that there are no a priori truths, he most definitely falls victim to the epistemological paradoxes of Hume and Goodman; but it's not clear that he is self-refuting by that same token. If he could show that all philosophy was reducible to the same empirical brain mapping, then he could claim that his position was "true" simply by process of elimination. Whether he could actually pull that off is doubtful, but I wouldn't say that it's a matter of the AfR. For the AfR to beat him, it would have to show that he has, by virtue of being a material machine incapable of universal reasoning, no way of saying whether or not his own position is true or false.

    The problem is that Churchland already rejects the very ideas of free will, consciousness and strong logic in favor of an empiricism so thorough that it would probably embarrass Hume. All of his "logic" is inductive and scientific--based, he claims, on percept knowledge. As far as I know, he accepts the further conclusion that he was determined to do what he does and so cannot change his position based on logic alone. However, if percepts are the basis of knowledge, and science is built solely on these, then he continues to have a justification of a sort for his position regardless of the AfR. He is only a "meat machine" (in Dennett's words) who does what he does merely because he does it, but, given the empirical reality of percepts, these actions will all be based on the real world and will, with luck, bring about the superiority and reproductive success of the species. I believe that the objection Prof. Feser uses at this point is that Churchland begs the question against non-materialist worldviews, since, like Rosenberg, he has to rely on the incredibly bad argument that scientism and empiricism are true because they produce the most results. I personally find it more interesting to examine the strange and ultimately self-refuting consequences of Churchland's ideas about percept knowledge, which would leave every person trapped in his own mind and would render all science moot, thanks to the impossibility of having real access to the objective world.

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  189. I think there's two problems with that kind of response, Rank.

    First, as you point out, there are responses to it that go a long way towards pointing out that it is a crazy view. I really do think it would end up being exposed as incoherent in the end.

    Second, however... most atheists would rather run away than embrace and argue on behalf of eliminative materialism, because really... it's a very, very crazy position. Chanting "science!" and "reason!" only is effective when you're not sounding like an absolute lunatic, and arguing that there is no free-will is hard enough for many of them to do. Saying there's no consciousness and no one ever follows reason and there is no intentionality? It's crazier than the craziest religious belief.

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  190. I'll also throw in that Berkeley is another example of a thorough empiricist. I think if you're going to take on a view that goes that overboard, then suddenly the claim that there isn't any matter at all becomes a lot more believable.

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  191. I think the strongest version of the EEAN is not about the reliability of all our cognitive faculties in general, but about the reliability of the cognitive faculties that lead us to form metaphysical beliefs. And since naturalism is a metaphysical belief one arrives at the same conclusion that the original argument by Plantinga arrives, namely that the conjunction of naturalism of evolution is self-defeating.

    I think it is easy to see why on naturalism and evolution our cognitive faculties for forming metaphysical beliefs are not reliable. Evolution plays out within the phenomenal world only. Thus the evolution of cognitive faculties that will reliably form true beliefs about what lies behind the phenomenal world provides no evolutionary advantage whatsoever. Therefore on evolution and naturalism it would be extremely lucky if we just happened to evolve such faculties. But to discover what lies behind the phenomenal world is what metaphysics is about. After all, the disagreement is not about the phenomenal world, or of the structure of physical phenomena the physical sciences elucidate. For example all current or future scientific knowledge is compatible with the metaphysical theory of subjective idealism, thus in order to decide whether subjective idealism is probably true or false we need cognitive faculties that are reliable in dealing with metaphysical questions.

    Finally, can a machine possess the cognitive faculties for reliably dealing with metaphysical questions? Since by definition the machine is built by us, and since in order to build a machine which has such reliable faculties we ourselves must have them in the first place (otherwise how would we design them into the machine?), the issue returns to us and Schliesser’s detour through machines fails.

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  192. Rank Sophist, I think you are granting Churchland way too much leeway. But, anyway, surely he falls victim to the argument from reason because for him our beliefs, such as they are, are not caused by the truth known, through the process of rational inference, but rather are physically caused.

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  193. Also, whilst he can no doubt speak for himself far better than I could speak for him, I'm not sure it is true that Dr.Feser believes that the chief argument against eliminative materialism is that it is built on a question begging perspective on the evidence (if this is what you are suggesting Rank Sophist). For example, see this critique of Alex Rosenberg, in which Dr.Feser argues for the incoherency of eliminative materialism:

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com.au/2009/12/rosenberg-on-naturalism.html

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  194. @Anonymous: "No, you don't get to pre-emptively change what someone's argument clearly states on the grounds that you think it's wrong and you plan on eventually showing that it's wrong, so you're just going to go ahead and correct it now."

    Sigh. Very well, in that case I concede that summarizing the argument as I did is a wrong-headed approach; we should summarize it after we've analyzed it, not before. So, slowly, let's do. Sticking to the words as closely as possible, apparently. (Which I think is silly, but - as you wish.)

    I will stick then to the words Eduardo uses. In #15 Plantinga raises the question of estimating "the objective probability that our cognitive faculties are reliable, given naturalism and... contemporary evolutionary theory".

    In #16 the text states naturalism is implicitly implied since God is not taken into consideration. Hence, in the sense Plantinga uses the term "naturalism", we can replace "naturalism" with "non-theism" in the above to obtain:

    (15') P=The objective probability that our cognitive faculties are reliable, given non-theism and contemporary evolutionary theory

    I'm going to stop here for now. No use running more than one step at a time here, methinks.

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  195. @Eduardo: "you mean that if God has something to do with evolution than it is creationist..."

    Whether God creates creatures magically by saying magic words and waving a wand, or whether he does so by arranging a predetermined harmony - these are all forms of creationism, because they are all claiming evolution as it's currently understood is wrong (whether you see it or not, that's what they do). The only form of theism that isn't creationist is a deist god that set up laws of nature that naturally lead to the creation of life, without him needing to meddle whether directly or indirectly. Such a deity still has something to do with evolution, but that something does not include distorting it.

    "Just shut up with trying to formulate whatever shit..."

    Fine, let's do it the other way around.

    "...and just say the relation of belief and behavior"

    In an evolved brain/mind, beliefs underlie behavior in the same way Plantinga assumes in his belief + desire model. Roughly. Everyone agrees to that, at the practical level. There may be disagreements at the metaphysical level, but evolution doesn't care about such metaphysics.

    More interesting are questions about proto-beliefs, about the evolution of the cognitive structures that underlie beliefs, desires, and their integration - but Plantinga's pile of words doesn't even come close to addressing such interesting issues.

    "... o[r] shut the fuck up and let the conversation die already"

    Tempting. Probably soon.

    Yair

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  196. No, what we say is that evolution within non theistic perspective is wrong, you are telling that evolution is exclusively atheistic in nature.

    Okay so to you evolution is defined as atheistic in nature, I don't see how that applies to pantheism, or panentheism, or classical theism.... It seems that it only applies if it hurts naturalistic metaphysics

    So creationism to you is basically: God takes any action towards life, it is creationism... Well I don't see how this excludes deism, unless you mean, creationism = taking non naturalistic takes on evolution... Which is quite dishonest.

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