Tuesday, September 4, 2012

Brain hacking and mind reading


Over the last week or so several news stories have appeared (e.g. here and here) suggesting that it is technologically possible to “hack” the brain and extract from it PIN numbers, credit card data, and the like.  This naturally raises the question whether such a possibility vindicates materialism.  The short answer is that it does not.  I’ve commented on claims of this sort before (here and here) but it is worth revisiting the issue in light of what I’ve said in recent posts about how the Aristotelian-Thomistic (A-T) philosopher understands the relationship between thought and brain activity.

Recall the analogy I drew in my recent BioLogos Forum piece between sentences and thoughts.  Any token of an English sentence like “The cat is on the mat” has physical properties apart from which the token could not exist -- such as, in the case of a written or printed sentence, the letters and their shapes and sizes, the ink in which they are embodied and its various chemical properties, and so on.  To damage or destroy these physical features is to damage or destroy the sentence token.  Yet the meaning of the sentence, which is obviously no less essential to it than its physical properties are, is in no way reducible to, supervenient upon, or in any other way explicable in terms of those physical properties.  The physical and the semantic, material and immaterial, form a seamless unity.

Similarly, for the A-T philosopher, human thought in normal circumstances is a seamless unity of the material and immaterial, the physiological and the psychological.  As Ric Machuga puts it in In Defense of the Soul, “souls are in bodies the way meaning is in words” (though I would emphasize that this is only an analogy, and I should also caution the reader that Machuga’s presentation of A-T hylemorphism is problematic).  I’ve noted recently how the content of a thought cannot be identified with mental imagery of any sort, nor entirely explained in neurophysiological terms.  Yet our intellectual activity typically takes place via imaginative and material media.  Even when our thoughts are at their most abstract, they tend to incorporate imagery of some sort -- hence (say) we think of visual or auditory images of numbers or shapes when we work through mathematical problems, or of the words for abstract concepts when we think philosophically, even if the thoughts cannot be reduced to these exercises in imagination.  (This is why it is easy to fall into the error of identifying thinking with the having of mental imagery.)  As Aquinas writes in the Summa Theologiae:

Although the intellect abstracts from the phantasms, it does not understand actually without turning to the phantasms. (I.85.5

[I]t is clear that for the intellect to understand actually, not only when it acquires fresh knowledge, but also when it applies knowledge already acquired, there is need for the act of the imagination and of the other powers.  For when the act of the imagination is hindered by a lesion of the corporeal organ, for instance in a case of frenzy; or when the act of the memory is hindered, as in the case of lethargy, we see that a man is hindered from actually understanding things of which he had a previous knowledge. (I.84.7)

[I]n the present state of life whatever we understand, we know by comparison to natural sensible things.  Consequently it is not possible for our intellect to form a perfect judgment, while the senses are suspended, through which sensible things are known to us. (I.84.8)

From the A-T point of view, then, it is hardly surprising that neuroscience has uncovered intimate correlations between neural activity and mental activity, or that damage to the brain can severely impair thought -- any more than it is surprising that if we physically damage a sentence, its ability to convey its propositional content is diminished or destroyed despite that content’s being irreducible to the sentence’s physical properties.  For the A-T philosopher to acknowledge that there is a physiological component to thought is not to make a desperate concession to modern scientific advances.  On the contrary, it is merely to reaffirm something that Aristotle and Aquinas themselves already recognized.  

What the A-T view should lead us to expect, then, is precisely that we should be able to “read off” the mental from the physical to some extent, though only to some extent.  And ironically, this is precisely what materialist writers like W. V. Quine, Daniel Dennett, Bernard Williams, and Donald Davidson say insofar as they affirm that the meaning of our linguistic utterances and thoughts is not fixed or determined by any set of physical facts.  The difference is that since they are materialists, they conclude that there just is no “fact of the matter” about what our utterances and thoughts mean; whereas the A-T philosopher, who holds that the claim that there is no “fact of the matter” about meaning cannot be coherently made out, concludes that meaning is something immaterial.  Both sides would agree that neither the methods described in the articles about “brain hacking” linked to above nor more sophisticated methods are ever even in principle going to get you to a strict predictability of the content of thought from the physical facts, even if they get you arbitrarily close.

The reason, it must be emphasized, is not epistemic but metaphysical.  It has nothing to do with how many of the physical facts we can know but with what those facts would by themselves entail, even if we knew them down to the last detail.  Nor does the point have anything essentially to do with complexity, precision of measurement, or with whether the relevant physical facts are inside the nervous system or in a thinker’s physical environment.  Even given the simplest and clearest physical symbol possible and the most detailed, exhaustive description possible of that symbol’s causal and other physical relations to the entire material universe, we would still not know with certainty what that symbol means because the entirety of those physical facts by themselves simply would not specify a unique meaning.  It’s not that the physical facts would entail that such-and-such is what is meant, but we couldn’t know enough about these facts to find out for sure that it is such-and-such that is meant; it’s that they would not entail this in the first place.  (Again, the point has nothing essentially to do with whether or not one is a materialist -- Quine and Co. would say the same thing.  The dispute between these materialists and their critics is over whether there is something additional to the physical facts that does determine meaning.)

The analytical Thomist philosopher John Haldane provides a useful illustration:

Every triangle is a trilateral and vice versa, and in some manner possession of the one property necessitates possession of the other. Yet triangularity and trilaterality are not the same attribute, and it takes geometrical reasoning to show that these properties are necessarily co-instantiated… To the extent that he can even concede that there are distinct properties the naturalist will want to insist that the causal powers… of trilaterals and triangulars are identical. Thus he cannot explain the difference between the concepts by invoking causal differences between the members of their extensions (as one might seem to be able to account for the difference between the concepts square and circle).  (J. J. C. Smart and J. J. Haldane, Atheism and Theism, Second edition, pp. 106-7)

As Haldane notes, the problem is completely general:

For any naturally individuated object or property there are indefinitely many non-equivalent ways of thinking about it. That is to say, the structure of the conceptual order, which is expressed in judgments and actions, is richer and more abstract than that of the natural order, and the character of this difference makes it difficult to see how the materialist could explain the former as arising out of the latter. (p. 107)

In short, any set of material facts, including facts about the efficient causal relations between material elements, is indeterminate between the different determinate ways in which we might conceptualize them; hence the former cannot suffice to account for the latter.

So, suppose we really did have sentences encoded in the brain, and suppose even that those sentences were not the subtle kind posited by Fodor’s “Language of Thought” hypotheses, but were rather the crude sort we normally think of when we think of sentences.  In particular, suppose that we found that the English words “The cat is on the mat” could be seen clearly written across the surface of a subject’s brain every time a cat entered the room and sat down on the mat.  There would still be absolutely nothing in any set of physical circumstances that could possibly tell us for sure that what he was thinking was that the cat is on the mat.  For one thing, the set of marks on his brain could in principle be a higher-order representation -- in particular, a representation not of cats on mats, but instead a representation of representations of cats on mats.  Nor could what the guy says to us determine which of these the brain sentence in question really represents.  For example, if he says “No, I’m thinking about cats on mats, not about representations of cats on mats,” we still need to know what that utterance meant, and whether it was itself really about cats on mats, representations of cats on mats, representations of representations of cats on mats, or whatever.

Note that the point is not that the guy might be lying to us, but that there is nothing about the physical properties of his utterance, or about his brain, or about his facial expressions or anything else, that could by themselves strictly entail that he means one thing rather than another even if he is not lying.  Nor could the causal relations between his brain and the outside world tell us.  For example, any regular causal correlation between the presence of a cat on a mat and the subject’s going into brain state B hardly shows all by itself that B represents cats on mats rather than representing representations of cats on mats, since the causal correlation in question could obviously be associated with either meaning.  And any appeal to further causal considerations just kicks the problem back a level.  (Again, there is nothing in this much that only a non-materialist could accept.  It’s more or less just standard Quine-Dennett style indeterminacy stuff.)  

As I have said, the problem arises at least in principle even in the simplest cases.  But it is even more pronounced the further we get from thoughts about immediately present concrete objects and have to interpret thoughts of a highly abstract and theoretically loaded sort.  Then the various possible “manuals of translation” -- to borrow the language of Quine’s famous “gavagai” argument -- become very unwieldy indeed.  (We know this from everyday experience.  It goes without saying that it is much harder to be sure one understands what another means when he is talking about some unfamiliar philosophical or scientific theory than when he is talking about the weather or the lunch you and he are sharing.)  

So, while it may well be possible for neuroscience to give us increasingly effective technological means of guessing at what is going on in someone’s mind, this will always amount to something more like skimming a few dollars from someone’s bank account rather than emptying it.  Between the brain and the mind, there’s enough metaphysical slack to prevent a complete hack. 

307 comments:

  1. (continued from previous comment)
    When you talk about laws of nature, what do you mean by the way? IS that what you refer to when you talk about mathematical laws in other places? Are these laws prescriptive?

    Mathematical rules that determine how the basic elements (whether particles in our universe or cells in the Game of Life) change in state over time. What do you mean by "prescriptive"? Part of the definition of "physical reductionism" is that the basic elements do always behave in a way consistent with these laws, but I make no claims about why they do this, nor (as I keep saying) do I claim to know for a fact that our universe actually is one where physical reductionism holds. But hopefully you agree that it's logically possible to have a universe where there's a set of mathematical laws that the fundamental parts obey at all times, and so it's meaningful to ask whether A-T would be compatible with such a universe.

    Mr. Green I suggested a way in which we could imagine physical reductionism being false, where an unpredictable behavior of a cat that a Laplacian demon (who knows nothing of high-level objects like "cats") would be forced to model as "chance", would be at least partially predictable by someone who understood something about teleological concepts like the cat's desires.

    So how is it then that your claims of reductionism are not refuted then?

    If that hypothetical--that the person who knew about the cat's desires would have a predictive advantage over the Laplacian demon then this would falsify physical reductionism. On the other hand, if the person who knew about the cat's desires would not have any predictive advantage over the Laplacian demon, and nor would anyone else who knew additional information beyond the configuration of fundamental particles and the fundamental physical laws governing them, then physical reducntionism would be true. Again, my purpose in this thread has nothing to do with convincing anyone that physical reductionism is true in the real world, although I personally believe it is likely to be and have occasionally offered some minor arguments to support it. My question, as always, is just whether its hypothetical truth would conflict with the A-T philosophy.

    Do you reject that animals and humans have desires?

    No, I just think that the physical behaviors and brain processes associated with these desires are in principle explainable in physical reductionist terms, again like with your own comment where you scoffed at the idea that "you should be able to predict human behavior by using the 4 fundamental forces of physics only." If that's true, then a person who knew about "desires" would have no predictive advantage over the Laplacian demon who knew the state of all the particles making up the cat and its environment, and the fundamental laws governing them, but who had no specific concept of a "cat" or any other high-level structure/behavior.


    One thing we must note however is that although what you express in the above paragraph is not incorrect it is yet incomplete. One may not have the necessary information at a given time to make a better prediction even though at a later time one might do.

    That's not really relevant to my definition of "physical reductionism", since it deals only with what could be predicted at a any specific time by an ideal Laplacian demon who knows everything it is possible to know at that time about the configuration of fundamental particles (or whatever elements are fundamental) and who also knows the fundamental physical laws governing their behavior.

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  2. @jesse

    @jesse
    Your answer is quite long. You take a long time and many words to make a point. Let’s try and keep this simple because we’re certainly not on the same page in regards to what it is you’re saying. I don’t really care about semantic anyway so I’m not going to comment further on your use of reductionism. I just find it misleading.

    You also don’t seem to have any interest in ontology so or maybe don’t want to go there because much of what you’re using to describe that which you call “physical reductionism” appeals to Aristotelian principles.

    This right here from the article you provided: “the best way to understand complex systems is to analyze their component parts, ignoring higher-level structures”. (I certainly don’t have the time to listen to an hour long discussion – incidentally, if you endorse Rosenberg’s position you will find plenty of refutations of his naturalism on this blog). From the point that you recognize higher structures you are recognizing forms and have in reality embraced AT.

    I certainly think the behavior of DNA and of cells could be accurately simulated by a computer that was programmed with nothing more than the initial configuration of all the particles and the fundamental quantum laws governing their dynamics.
    Can you show this to me?

    I don't understand what you mean by "at every level there is a new dynamic in operation"--are you just saying that we need not just the initial state but also the dynamical laws (a function operating on the initial state), or are you saying that large-scale systems behave in ways that would be fundamentally impossible to predict using the initial state of the basic constituents and the fundamental dynamical laws?

    Since we’re talking about mind uploading I’ll use that example. I do not think you can enter into a simulation the configuration of particles and quantum laws and create an entity that could be referred to as a human being in any meaningful way. This answers your question that placed most importance on (the only difference is that we substitute gliders for humans). Now if you can show this then you’ve made your case, if you cannot show this you’ve merely begged the question.

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  3. So, it seems not too farfetched to predict that within a few centuries, the question of whether human behavior is explainable in these reductionist terms is one for which we could run tests that would pretty strongly support either a positive or negative answer, even if they didn't prove the answer absolutely.

    I actually think this is extremely far fetched. If of course you mean what I think you mean, that say a person’s actions can be simulated with only a limited set of elementary particles and physical laws governing those particles exclusively and only at that level, which is what reductionism as commonly understood is. I actually think that is quite absurd to claim. Of course at this point you’re appealing to promissory type argument.

    Every time there is further progress in explaining new aspects of the behavior of complex systems (like the dynamics of water, or the growth of embryos) in reductionist terms, behavior that hadn't been explainable in those terms until the new findings, I would say that's a small new piece of evidence for the hypothesis that all complex systems are in principle explainable in those terms, though of course it's not definitive. I recognize that this isn't going to convince skeptics that the same is true for humans, but as I said above, tests that would strongly support a positive or negative answer might be possible within a few centuries.

    We’ve seen these type of arguments plenty of times and even branded as “naturalistic” but they evidently make references to AT categories and principles either at the higher or the fundamental level. And of course we’re skeptic. To really think what it is that I think you’re saying about humans being reducible to particles + quantum laws is quite alarming. I haven’t seen anything to even suggest that in the real world. You can’t keep making this claim without substantiation.

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  4. You people seem to be going round and round.

    Jesse is saying: Is AT compatible with a universe having a set of fundamental rules that describe or produce all possible rules in that universe?

    Basically he is asking if AT is compatible with the kinectic gas theory, if our universe was just a gas cilinder... Macro states can be related or explained through micro states.


    It seems that this will no doubt turn in to a shell game, if you don't have any kind of fundamental limit for entities.

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  5. @jesse

    No, I just think that the physical behaviors and brain processes associated with these desires are in principle explainable in physical reductionist terms, again like with your own comment where you scoffed at the idea that "you should be able to predict human behavior by using the 4 fundamental forces of physics only." If that's true, then a person who knew about "desires" would have no predictive advantage over the Laplacian demon who knew the state of all the particles making up the cat and its environment, and the fundamental laws governing them, but who had no specific concept of a "cat" or any other high-level structure/behavior.

    This is basically the focal point. If by physical reductionist terms you mean by denying the reality of intentionality (e.g. beliefs) then I think you will have a problem with your worldview.

    So I suppose it's all about whether 4 forces + particle configuration alone = human being. I say no. I say that because I have seen nothing to give me reason to believe that we inhabit such a boring reality.

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  6. @Anonymous

    "Based on what exactly?"

    Based on the existence of a translation from the customary language of mathematical entities to the customary language of blog comboxers. That's the whole point of the translation argument. I don't actually have to make a metaphysical claim, a semiotic one is actually enough. Mathematical entities _can be said_ to _have a conversation_. Jesse _makes a statement_.

    "how is the verb "to converse" expressed mathematically?"

    First of all, I regard as settled that I am not actually obligated to produce a term for every English phrase that you can think of, only to show that it can be done in principle. I already made a sketch of "objective", "physical", and "world". I would also point out that there is a large section of information theory which, in it's historical development and practical application is concerned with telephone calls, so "to converse" is actually a pretty basic mathematical operation.

    That's my point "word", "converse", "argument", "statement" "to say". All of these words are actually directed, out of the box, not at physical thing in the physical world but at a finitely generated set of symbols.

    "What I am saying is that not everything can be expressed mathematically. You say in principle it can."

    I would amend your reading of my position to say that "everything that can be expressed, can be expressed mathematically". The inexpressible will stay on the table for the moment.

    (... cont)

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  7. (... cont)

    "My reductio says, that "ultimate level of reality is a number" is neither true nor can it be made coherent."

    Let's leave "true" for later, let me tackle "can be made coherent". Let's imagine that your words and ideas, taken all together, have some relationship to a Turing machine, to a computable function of some kind. This is of course quite the claim on it's own, but I am begging it for the moment and we may return to it later. The machine is such that when I take a note from this combox and encode it into numbers, and then feed it to the machine it spits right back what you would write in the combox in reply.

    The purpose of this machine is that it affords me a very nice translating function from English into mathematics. I can say to the machine "Anonymous_bot, tell me about the words 'ultimate level of reality is a number'", or "tell me about plants", and Anonymous_bot tells me exactly what you would tell me, the first is incoherent and the second is green.

    Of course you can argue that Anonymous_bot is a simple input/output machine and never actually sees or refers to plants or worlds, but to a numerical representation of plants and worlds. For the purposes of this argument that is fine. Let us grant provisionally the metaphysical issue.

    The point is that I can take Anonymous_bot and write it as a single, unwieldy equation on a very large chalk board. And nobody would disagree that Anonymous_bot is a mathematical abstraction.

    And I can take Jesse_bot and write it on another very large chalkboard, and I can get the very smartest child prodigy from the very best grammar school and I can get one of those Chinese boxes from somewhere and they can stand before those chalkboards and solve the equation.

    And the solutions of the equation comes out to being something along the lines of Jesse_bot saying "the objective physical world is mathematics" and Anonymous_bot saying "objective, physical, and world are not mathematical concepts".

    Yet we all agree that Anonymous_bot is actually wrong. Anonymous_bot is a mathematical abstraction, everything it is capable of actually referring to is also a mathematical abstraction. When Jesse_bot said "objective, physical, world" it didin't mean the same thing as it did when Jesse said it (or if it did, then you have given me the farm). It actually was a mathematical abstraction, Jesse_bot was actually right.

    If Jesse_bot was right then Anonymous_bot was wrong. If Anonymous_bot was wrong the Anonymous_bot's argument must have been unsound. But Anonymous_bot's argument is, symbol for symbol, the same as yours. If Anonymous_bot's argument is unsound then so is yours.

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  8. @reighley

    We keep repeating the same thing over and over. You say, I can exhaustively express anything from natural language into mathematics and by that you mean in a precise manner. I say I don't see how that is the case or possible. The argument you gave here with the Turing machine assumes what it is supposed to prove. We really have not moved much from my initial objection.

    You say that you're not obliged to prove anything because in principle (if you assume that which you're required to prove) it's doable. Well if you assume it then I suppose it is but if you don't then it is not. The examples you gave for objective, physical and world did not demonstrate what you claim it does.

    I don't think we're getting anywhere since what I am asking, you cannot provide. I'm not saying that in a condescending way of course.

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  9. Dear Ms. Manners,

    Someone recently postulated that mathematical entities can be said to converse. I'm wondering, is this appropriate?

    Much obliged,
    A concerned reader


    Dear Concerned Reader,

    Yes, mathematical entities can be said to converse. As a matter of fact, semaphore flags also can be said to converse.

    Unlike conversations had by semaphore flags, however, conversations had by mathematical entities tend to be free of gesticulations.

    So, if you're going to be amongst polite society. or will be attending a formal occasion, it would be appropriate to take along a mathematical entity.

    But if your just hanging out with your friends, and they appreciate lively and animated conversation, by all means, break out those semaphore flags!

    Ms. Manners

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  10. So, integers 4 and 7 are having a conversation, discussing, as a matter of fact, whether it could be said that humans converse. 4 holds that they cannot, and 7 holds that they can. 4 doesn't think much very much of 7's position, so says, "You're odd." Not missing a beat, 7 retorts, "And you, sir, are a square." "But that humans have digits doesn't mean they can converse. That's just nutty!" protests 4. "Well, maybe it is," conceded 7. "But you can't argue against the fact that they argue about whether we can converse!"

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  11. @Anonymous,

    "I don't think we're getting anywhere since what I am asking, you cannot provide."

    Is what you are asking for an exhaustive translation of English into mathematics, bound in 6 volumes and delivered to your door?

    You are asking too much. If you are reasonable it should be possible to convince you with less.

    Also, the proof of the existence of a proof or a proposition, is a sufficient proof of that proposition.

    "The examples you gave for objective, physical and world did not demonstrate what you claim it does."

    Let's take the translation argument in a somewhat different direction. Supposing that I claimed (and at this point it should not be hard to believe) that the English language spoken by Reighley and the English language spoken by Anonymous were in fact not translatable into one another. This on the grounds that every time Reighley said "objective physical world", these words evidently had a different referent than when Anonymous said them.

    Suppose further that Reighley and Anonymous, in their own private languages, shared certain principles of reason. So that a proof that was sound in Anonymous' world was also sound in Reighley's.

    Anonymous, suspicious that Reighley is using the terms "objective physical world" to refer to something other than the objective physical world proposes to disabuse him of this notion by saying "you refer to the objective physical world even though you have no terms in your language for those things. This is clearly impossible".

    Now, Anonymous may be right. It might be the case that in fact Reighley is using these terms in a fundamentally different way than he is. Yet when Reighley hears Anonymous' argument, to the effect that he has no terms for "objective physical world", he is unconvinced. For in fact he thinks he does have such terms. Anonymous' argument cannot possibly convince him.

    But soundness is a feature intrinsic to the argument, whether what one is proposing to prove is true or not has no bearing on whether one has actually proved it. So if, after the transition, the collection of English letters Anonymous strung together to make an argument is unsound in the language of Reighley then either the language of Anonymous and the language of Reighley differ on some fundamental principle of reasoning, or Anonymous' argument was unsound to begin with.

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  12. @reighley:

    "I don't actually have to construct the encoding right now in front of you. I only have to show that one exists."

    And how do you prove that such an encoding exists other than constructing it? In "constructing" it, I am allowing you free use of non-constructive principles such as choice. But the conundrum I pointed out still remains.

    "Now would be a good time to say that I have taken the position I have taken in large part because I disagree strongly with this very statement. I blame the Bourbaki. Just because we use the very convenient idea of a "set" as a pedagogical tool to describe, say, a topological space it does not follow that a topological space "is" a set. A statement in ZFC might be referring to a topological space and not a set."

    I explicitly rejected the set-reductionism. But a statement in ZFC is a statement about sets; no ifs or buts. If you want to translate everything into a formal theory T then you are stuck with the plain fact that sentences in that theory are about the domain of discourse of the theory, sets in the ZFC case. Sorry, but I am not allowing you to eat your cake and have it too.

    "I think the problem of meaning is the only real one here, and the ontological and technical problems eventually fall into it."

    No, no, no, thousand times no. I keep repeating this, but even if you have your translation, this does not go one inch towards solving the ontological problem.

    "English too must either contain unprovable statements or be inconsistent. I am taking for granted that we all reject the later."

    English is not a formal theory, so it is meaningless to say that it contains unprovable statements (although I suppose *some* sort of meaning could be ascribed to it), that it is consistent or inconsistent, etc.

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  13. @JesseM:

    "I don't think these terms are actually very precise--for example, it seems ambiguous to talk about "localization in space-time" if space and time are not understood as fundamental but just emerge from mathematical relationships between events."

    I do not need to explicitly define what a material object is; I do not need to prove that *every* material object has the features I listed. All I need to do is to point out to reality and observe that the common objects of our experience, rocks, chairs, people, planets, etc., all recognizable material objects, do have the features I listed. In fact, can you point to *any* recognizable material object which does *not* have the features I listed? There is nothing ambiguous about "localization in space-time" either. Whatever else we can say about the universe and the objects in it, there is a very precise sense in which they are localized both in time and space -- to cash it out in terms of GR, material objects occupy a region in the space-time manifold, bounded in most (all?) cases. The same can be done for whatever physical theory you pick, because if it is to be a reasonable physical theory it must account for the most basic facts about material bodies such as extension in space and extension in time, the things we actually measure with rulers and clocks.

    It is a very bizarre kind of materialist that would subscribe to the existence of material objects that do not have the features I listed; but whatever. Insofar as I am trying to "refute" anything (scare quotes on purpose), it is your bizarre brand of mathematical idealism.

    "What would you say to a self-proclaimed materialist who denied that material objects must have the property of contingency, for example?"

    Prove it (note: contingency is being used in the modal sense, more or less your second sense).

    "Naturally, any quasi-realistic simulated world is going to have some internal notion of time, so that we can talk about the state of various simulated entities at different times and the program can be calculating how these states change with time."

    Whatever it is that a Turing machine does, it computes a recursive function. Nothing more, nothing less. If the recursive function it computes counts as a simulation of the weather, it is certainly an interesting fact, and of immense practical consequence, but I fail to see its relevance. For your argument, as far as I can understand it, boils down to this: a Turing machine can be used to simulate the world (or at least "worlds" in which time talk makes sense), therefore there is an "internal causal structure and time dimension" to Turing machines. But it is fallacious to transfer attributes (causal structure, time as metric of change) of the thing-simulated or of the simulator to the abstract mathematical concept of the simulator. If I am misreading you, and I suspect you will say that I am, please clarify.

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  14. @JesseM (continued):

    "I would speculate that if we are really implementing the "same" computation, there is probably a mapping between the propositions concerning the behavior of the Turing machine and the propositions that are intermediate steps in the case of implementing the computation with lambda calculus or recursive function theory."

    The equivalence of the several models of computation boils down to the fact that all the models of computation (Turing machines, Post machines, abacus machines, lambda calculus, mu-recursive functions, Markov algorithms, etc.) compute the same class of functions. For example, for the equivalence of Turing machines with lambda calculus, the translation will give for every Turing machine a lambda-expression. Your speculations (apt choice of wording) are hardly enlightening. A formalized proof is as much a mathematical object (and thus lacking all the features of material objects) as numbers, Hilbert spaces or topoi. Reading a time dimension or causality into the structure of a tree is... well, nothing but wild speculation and fallacious reasoning. By the Curry-Howard isomorphism a program is as much a mathematical object as a proof. Etc. and etc.

    "This is related to the main question I keep asking but never really getting a clear answer to from any of the people who have engaged in discussion with me here: namely, where or not the AT metaphysics requires that the universe doesn't work in the "physical reductionist" way I have defined above, or if it is at least potentially compatible with this notion of physical reductionism."

    I will leave this to the anonymous you are debating, as I have not engaged in this part of the discussion so I do not know what you are talking about.

    "But if space and time are not seen as fundamental but just ways of talking about where each event sits in a network of connections with other events, isn't this just like the way propositions generated by a formal system are connected to one another by rules of inference?"

    No. But even if the answer were yes, so what? "Being like" is drawing a comparison, but what you want, as far as I can understand you, is an identification of sorts.

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  15. @JesseM (continued):

    "I believe LQG and causal sets both fit the description I gave above of theories where one has a network of "events" whose "position" and "time" can only be defined in terms of discrete connections to other events."

    Both LQG and causal sets have notions of space-time, or more specific of space-time geometries. In LQG, which is what I know best, the Hilbert state space of the universe is spanned by spin networks; each spin network is a geometry and the state of the universe is then a linear combination (in a generalized sense) of these states. But there are volume operators, area operators, etc. And of course there must be, if it is to be a quantum theory of gravity. So everything I said about localization in space-time still stands. And you are still committing the reification fallacy, but I have already dropped this one as it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

    "The fact that one "starts out with a classical system" in LQG is just a historical matter about how the theory was arrived at"

    This is not correct, because LQG is a (purported) quantization of GR, so no, it is not just an historical artifact. That is actually how most quantum systems are obtained, as quantizations of the corresponding classical systems, and this fact is deeply ingrained in quantum mechanics for several reasons I will not go over. *If*, and this is an extremely big if, we ever reach the point of having a coherent theory of quantum gravity that is not produced via a quantization procedure and has GR for semi-classical limit, then you will have a point, though a minor one that does not impinge on the core of what I am claiming.

    "When it comes to the question of what conditions are required for someone to be labeled a "materialist", this is a semantic debate, not a debate about metaphysical truths."

    That was not my point. The point is that you over and over again draw unwarranted metaphysical conclusions from physical theories (or loose mathematical analogies). You cannot simply read off those conclusions from what in all effects is a *description* of how "nature works", further argumentation is needed.

    "But one of your earlier argument against mathematical platonism being compatible with materialism was that you can't find pi to punch it..."

    Oh come on. It is logically and metaphysically impossible to punch pi in the face; at best, it is nomologically impossible to punch my doppelganger in the face (maybe we can open a wormhole into such a parallel universe; and if we are engaging in such wild speculations you will certainly not deny me this much). You can see the difference in *kind* or can't you?

    note: I have written 3 posts in response; this is simply too much. So I hope you will forgive me, if in the future I start skipping some points in the interests of brevity.

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  16. [Reposting this comment since it didn't show up in my RSS, so it will probably appear twice now...]

    JesseM: whether or not the AT metaphysics requires that the universe doesn't work in the "physical reductionist" way I have defined above, or if it is at least potentially compatible with this notion of physical reductionism.

    My previous answers were trying to indicate that A-T can accommodate any kinds of observed behaviour. I do think the term "reductionist" is perhaps confusing, but that probably doesn't matter if we can avoid using it. Suppose God created a universe that had nothing but some particles bouncing around in a well-defined way. That could be electrons and photons (but no people or animals, so no conscious awareness or immaterial intellects to worry about); or it could be particles that work like Conway's game. Such a universe might or might not consist of substances beyond the particles (i.e. not reductionist in the sense that only the particles are "real") — it doesn't matter, either kind of world is perfectly compatible with A-T.

    What about a world that contains human beings, with immaterial intellects? Yes, it is possible that everything that is physically observable in that universe could be described in terms of part(icle)s and their rules. It's also possible to have a world that doesn't work that way. Or to have worlds that differ in some immaterial aspects even if on the level of physical behaviour, the two worlds look exactly the same.

    In other words, for A-T, there are many possible worlds that could have existed where, given empirical knowledge of an initial state and some mathematical rules, we could describe any subsequent empirical state. Some of those worlds could be fully described by their particles and rules; some of them could not (because they contain realities that are not empirical, and thus not something we were considering in the first place). So no, no empirical observation is going to "disprove" A-T on a metaphysical level (any more than any physical discovery could "disprove" the scientific method). The metaphysics is compatible with all these possibilities. Whether the actual world is one in which physical behaviour can be completely explained in terms of such rules remains to be seen.

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  17. @jesse

    Since you’re denying that any of what you said is an ontological claim we can thus focus on your argument for reductionism. You linked an article by carroll on reductionism that seems to favor rosenberg’s worldview. If that’s your position on reductionism I think you have bigger problems than simply trying to overcome my objections here. Feser did a series on the problems found in Rosenberg’s belief system starting from here (http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/10/reading-rosenberg-part-i.html). I will not comment specifically on that but since its scope is rather broad and Feser does a good job himself elucidating the many problems of such a reductionistic worldview, many of which spring about from its own premises than rendering it incoherent.

    Putting that aside for the sake of the matter at hand, it seems to me that the controversy brought about by your claims is this… You seem to believe that a human being’s behavior is exhausted by particles configuration and quantum theory. That is a very extravagant claim in itself. If it is to be understood that whatever else, whether biological, psychological, analytical, economical, sociological etc is simply superfluous to explaining human behavior then the term reductionism is warranted but a proof of such a claim has not been forthcoming. If it is to be understood that higher modalities are necessary in explaining human behavior then there is not much fundamental disagreement.

    If you’re claiming the former then you need to prove that Peter’s decision to purchase a specific mortgage product of Bank of America for example is explicable in particle configurations + quantum laws alone. Or that Nick’s decision to marry Jane (along with all the explicit and implicit baggage marriage comes with, legal, religious, psychological, financial etc) is one that can be explained in a similar fashion as in the case of Peter.

    You can continue to claim that such a thing is doable in italicized principle but that is as I mentioned elsewhere a promissory type argument and thus invalid. You are faced with a choice, you either maintain reductionism and deny causal efficacy to higher level dynamics (since you do not need them as per your assertions to explain human behavior) or you are acknowledging the role such higher order structures play in reality and thus have refuted reductionism.

    So in sum, can you demonstrate how you can explain Pete’s and Nick’s actions using particle configurations and quantum laws alone? (no fallacies via appeals to the future or promissory type arguments please).

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  18. @reighley

    Is what you are asking for an exhaustive translation of English into mathematics, bound in 6 volumes and delivered to your door?

    You are asking too much. If you are reasonable it should be possible to convince you with less.


    What you’re basically saying is that if I accept your argument I’m reasonable and if I don’t I’m not reasonable. That’s an ad hominem. Be careful.

    I already explained to you that I fully understand what you’re trying to say with the “language” and “string of symbols” argument. I simply do not see that as an adequate objection to what I have been saying.

    To be honest, since I don’t think what you claim is possible I don’t see how you can even ask me what said explication of the proof would be other than a proof itself. If I thought it was a viable option I could have helped by providing a blueprint of what I believe it to be but since I don’t I’m only in a position to observe what I am presented with in terms of proof, which you have not provided.

    This seems like a stagnant situation at this point. You say you’ve made your point, I say you haven’t. You presuppose that which you must prove in the examples you gave (e.g. Turing machine) and I am not convinced by it and we keep repeating the same thing to each other back and forth.

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  19. @grodrigues,

    "In "constructing" it, I am allowing you free use of non-constructive principles such as choice."

    I'm allowed a nonconstructive construction? I'm so desperate I'll take it! Seriously though, if I derived a contradiction from the proposition that no translation existed, wouldn't it be fatal to Anonymous' argument?

    "But a statement in ZFC is a statement about sets; no ifs or buts."

    Strongly disagree. Unless we take as the definition of "set" anything which may be properly referred to by ZFC, then of course it is trivially true.

    "No, no, no, thousand times no. I keep repeating this, but even if you have your translation, this does not go one inch towards solving the ontological problem."

    I understand your frustration and I beg your forgiveness. I'm still working on establishing the plausibility of a translation. I do think solving the semantic problem would do more work than you give it credit for though. What I am trying to develop is an argument that even if it were the case that the world is not a mathematical abstraction, it wouldn't be possible to write down a sound proof of that fact in a finitely generated language like ours.

    Okay sure it doesn't go the whole way toward solving the ontological problem, but it still packs a punch. I'm not saying your position is false, I'm just saying no proofs of its truth can exist.

    "English is not a formal theory, so it is meaningless to say that it contains unprovable statements (although I suppose *some* sort of meaning could be ascribed to it), that it is consistent or inconsistent, etc."

    If you really believe this to be the case, we probably should not be using it to argue in. Also, I was never constrained to a single formal theory. If it were the case that everything in the world belonged to some formal theory, then we could still say that "the objective physical world is mathematical".

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  20. @Anonymous,

    "What you’re basically saying is that if I accept your argument I’m reasonable and if I don’t I’m not reasonable. That’s an ad hominem. Be careful."

    That is not at all what I am saying.

    "This seems like a stagnant situation at this point. You say you’ve made your point, I say you haven’t."

    Very sorry I have been unable to make myself more clear. For the record, I totally haven't made my point yet.

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  21. @reighley:

    "Seriously though, if I derived a contradiction from the proposition that no translation existed, wouldn't it be fatal to Anonymous' argument?"

    Under my very lax definition of construction, sure. But you will not manage to find a contradiction, so no problem. Grin.

    "But a statement in ZFC is a statement about sets; no ifs or buts.

    Strongly disagree."

    You can disagree as much as you want and you are still wrong. ZFC is a formal theory about some (undefined) terms such as "set" and the "element of" relation. So every statement of ZFC is a statement about sets, period. To see this, note that it is perfectly meaningful to for example, ask whether in ZFC the number 3 is an element of the number 7 because the numbers 3 and 7 are *just* sets (the answer depends on the encoding: yes, if you are using Von-Neumann ordinals, no if you use Zermelo naturals). Or to ask if the real line is an element of the Stone-Cech compactification of the natural numbers. Or... you get my drift.

    "English is not a formal theory, so it is meaningless to say that it contains unprovable statements (although I suppose *some* sort of meaning could be ascribed to it), that it is consistent or inconsistent, etc.

    If you really believe this to be the case, we probably should not be using it to argue in."

    Uh? This is silly. What I stated is a matter of objective fact. Arguments in a combox are informal arguments and only a completely mad reductionist would insist on a formal setting for a philosophical argument. Heck, even mathematical arguments are semi-formal as it is humanly impossible to read any but the most elementary arguments layed out in a formal language, given their length and absolute impenetrability. All it suffices is to note that in principle, such a formalization is possible, something that one comes to recognize with practice (of course, this is also the source of some errors, but that is neither here nor there).

    "Also, I was never constrained to a single formal theory."

    No? So what does it mean to have a translation? Try to keep a minimum of consistency, please.

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  22. reighley,

    ...my conception of mathematics [is] as a language which might express anything so long as it did so precisely... (September 7, 2012 6:30 PM)

    Very sorry I have been unable to make myself more clear. For the record, I totally haven't made my point yet. (September 11, 2012 9:55 AM)

    In other words, your point is not mathematically expressible.

    Perhaps you'll say, "Not yet, it isn't. But this does not mean it won't ever be. In fact, I hold that my point someday will be mathematically expressible."

    But if you say this, or something like it, or even think it, then you would be, in effect, agreeing with an earlier point which you had seemed to feel worth only such so much attention as was necessary to dismiss it.

    The point was, basically (and implicatively (see my comment of September 9, 2012 11:34 AM above)), that natural language--by virtue of the free reign it has in expressing things imprecisely--is ahead of mathematical language as a viable and useful medium of expression and communication, and is helpful in the development of ideas in ways that mathematical language is not.

    I submit that if you, or anyone else, is ever successful in providing a precise mathematical expression of the concept behind your point, such success will owe a great deal to the use of imprecise natural language in developing the concept to the point that it became convertible into a mathematical expression.

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  23. Clarification: When I say that natural language is ahead of mathematical language, I do not mean to say it is always ahead of it. Of course not. If there weren't many things which can be expressed more clearly with mathematics than natural language, than mathematics likely would lose much of its usefulness.

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  24. Mr. Glenn: "You're odd." Not missing a beat, 7 retorts, "And you, sir, are a square."

    You write some of my favourite comments.

    ReplyDelete
  25. > Mr. Green said...
    >> Mr. Glenn: "You're odd."

    I've learned to live with it. :-)

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  26. JesseM: With regard to time, I am an eternalist rather than a presentist, so I don't really believe anything ceases to exist or has yet to exist, it's just that I don't have direct awareness of what's going on at other times in much the same way I don't have direct awareness of what's going on at distant spatial locations.

    Eternalism vs. presentism is largely orthogonal to the question of whether time "is just" space, that is, whether it can be "reduced" to nothing more than a mathematical dimension. It obviously can be modelled that way (and nothing from physics or relativity, or Turing machines, tells us anything more than that), but of course that doesn't mean time is simply a funny-looking direction of space. The problem is that we experience change, and that is not sufficiently explained by a dimension. Either our consciousness is an extended line-segment, and thus spans that length of time simultaneously, or else our consciousness is separate at each point of time, and thus each one is unaware of the other points. In the 4-D block, nothing is actually changing, and thus our experience of change could not exist… but it does.

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  27. Reighley: The point is that I can take Anonymous_bot and write it as a single, unwieldy equation on a very large chalk board. And nobody would disagree that Anonymous_bot is a mathematical abstraction.

    The software is a mathematical abstraction (or close enough, let us grant), but Anonymous_bot is, well, a (ro)bot, i.e. an implementation of the software, a hylomorphic compound of form and hardware. But maybe we could fit that square peg into a round mathematical hole by shaving off problematic aspects like change and qualities and pushing them off into "minds", say… indeed that's something like the Cartesian approach, which leaves the non-mental world as "only" mathematical, i.e. the physical = what is studied by physics = mathematical structure. The problem is the leftover "mental" aspects of reality. We know they exist (I'm experiencing them right now!), so they have to be accounted for somewhere.

    And this is where I'm not really sure I grasp your point. I think the whole language thing is a bit of a red herring — being able to translate statements into a formal language may give us a useful algorithmic tool for working things out, but it doesn't tell us where the language came from, or whether the language is capable of describing every aspect of reality. To say that everything is mathematics is surely obviously false. Green is not a number (or a polygon or whatever) — are you claiming that it is, or am I missing the point?

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  28. @grodrigues,

    "You can disagree as much as you want and you are still wrong."

    It seems to me like you are just arguing that a "set" is one of the things treated by ZFC, and that other than that it is left undefined. This is fine with me, but it doesn't prove anything about the expressiveness of the formal language.

    "No? So what does it mean to have a translation? Try to keep a minimum of consistency, please."

    I'm just trying to leave myself some wiggle room in case we get to the end and I want to conjecture a sequence of formal theories that are reality in the limit or something quirky like that.

    Right now my argument is edging toward the proposition that English actually is a formal theory in the ways that matter, ie that you can construct arguments in it and they are either sound or unsound.

    @Glenn,

    "I submit that if you, or anyone else, is ever successful in providing a precise mathematical expression of the concept behind your point, such success will owe a great deal to the use of imprecise natural language in developing the concept to the point that it became convertible into a mathematical expression."

    That is certainly so, but can we at least agree that if somebody ever did that then Anonymous' reductio would be false. And if Anonymous' reductio is false in the future then it is false now.

    "The software is a mathematical abstraction (or close enough, let us grant), but Anonymous_bot is, well, a (ro)bot, i.e. an implementation of the software, a hylomorphic compound of form and hardware."

    It's this sort of thing that I'm trying to get around by using a language argument. Jesse's statement and Anonymous' argument in opposition are presumed to be either true of false of the world, and Anonymous' argument is either sound or unsound.

    The argument says that I can show Anonymous' argument to be unsound in the following way. I can show that there exists a scheme for translating Anonymous' arguments into the range of a computable function and that this translation preserves the soundness of arguments. I can then argue that, as translated, Anonymous' thesis is false. Only an unsound argument generates a falsehood, so, as translated Anonymous' argument must be unsound. So if a soundness preserving translation exists the Anonymous' reasoning was unsound even in it's untranslated form.

    The big point of this exercise is that, regardless of what it refers to, Anonymous' argument is made out of words. We do not have to cope with different modes of being or with qualia, we can get by just by examining the words for those things. For an argument is either sound or not based on its internal features, and their adherence to the rules we agree on. I do not have to worry about time or contingency, for if the argument is sound it is sound regardless of who makes it or why or when. It is sound even if nobody ever thinks to make it at all.

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  29. @Green,
    I just noticed that I neglected to put a marker in that last post indicating where my answer to Glenn stopped and my answer to you began. Which is a shame because most of the last post was a reply to you.

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  30. reighley,

    @Glenn,

    "I submit that if you, or anyone else, is ever successful in providing a precise mathematical expression of the concept behind your point, such success will owe a great deal to the use of imprecise natural language in developing the concept to the point that it became convertible into a mathematical expression."

    That is certainly so, but can we at least agree that if somebody ever did that then Anonymous' reductio would be false. And if Anonymous' reductio is false in the future then it is false now.


    I am being asked me, it seems to me, to concede to the notion that each and every possible mathematical truth that could ever possibly exist at any time during the all of eternity already (i.e., presently) exists--if not in this realm, then in some other Plato's World-like realm (PWLR).

    Seductive as this may be, I am not prepared to make the concession. And even if I were prepared to make the concession--and went ahead and did make it--it would not render false Anonymous' reductio.

    Why not?

    For two reasons:

    1) the truth status of Anonymous' reductio cannot be altered by my making a concession; and,

    2) Anonymous' reductio pertains to this non-PWLR**, within which a precise mathematical expression of the concept behind your point does not exist, as you yourself acknowledge above.


    ** If I am wrong on this point, Anonymous need only say so, and I will stand corrected.

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  31. Mr. Green:
    In other words, for A-T, there are many possible worlds that could have existed where, given empirical knowledge of an initial state and some mathematical rules, we could describe any subsequent empirical state. Some of those worlds could be fully described by their particles and rules; some of them could not (because they contain realities that are not empirical, and thus not something we were considering in the first place). So no, no empirical observation is going to "disprove" A-T on a metaphysical level (any more than any physical discovery could "disprove" the scientific method). The metaphysics is compatible with all these possibilities. Whether the actual world is one in which physical behaviour can be completely explained in terms of such rules remains to be seen.

    Thanks for the clear-cut answer. But do you think this is a sufficiently transparent issue that anyone who has a good understanding of the A-T philosophy would agree, or are you just giving a personal opinion about how you think the modern version of the A-T philosophy should be defined? Again I would point to Dr. Feser's post at http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/07/atheistic-teleology.html where it seems to me he is saying the following things:

    1. In a totally mechanistic universe (and I think a "physical reductionist" universe as I defined it would qualify, at least if it was deterministic), physical entities like organisms cannot have any "intrinsic teleology", though they may have "derived teleology" if the universe was created by a Deistic immaterial God, and they also have only "accidental" rather than "substantial" forms.

    See for example his comment "They were theists, and took it that God had simply imposed on inherently passive matter certain patterns of activity. Hence for Descartes, Newton, and Boyle it is not that no teleology or final causes exist at all. Rather, natural teleology was reinterpreted as entirely derived rather than intrinsic. Paley’s conception of the world as a kind of machine made by a divine artificer was the logical outcome of this way of thinking. Like watches, hammocks, and other everyday artifacts, natural objects came to be seen as having essentially accidental rather than substantial forms." Also see his comment in the paragraph on the liana vine, where he says that "on the view of nature in question, the material world ultimately has only the mathematically describable (and essentially non-teleological) properties described by physics."

    2. However, the Aristotelian view says that people and living things do have intrinsic teleology, and are "natural substances".

    See his comment that Fincke "uses 'function' in a way that seems to imply that complex natural objects are simply arrangements of smaller components which interact in a law-like way. This indicates a kind of reductionism that no Aristotelian can accept." Also see his later comment that "not only must a consistent Aristotelian essentially chuck out most of what has passed for the general metaphysical conventional wisdom in mainstream philosophy during the last few centuries, but he must also take very seriously the natural theology that has traditionally been associated with Aristotelian metaphysics and philosophy of nature."

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  32. (continued from previous comment)
    3. Furthermore, intrinsic teleology and natural substances are required in order for there to be any "objective morality".

    See his comment that "no construal of teleology consistent with modern naturalism and scientism can give you the kind of teleology necessary for objective morality" along with the subsequent paragraph which seems to say that Aquinas' First, Second and Fifth Ways depend on the assumption that things in the world do have intrinsic "ends" and "potentials", i.e. they must have intrinsic teleology. Also see his later comment that "Moral goodness is the kind that exists in rational animals (namely us) because, unlike liana vines and other non-rational substances, we can intellectually grasp the ends toward which our nature directs us and freely choose whether or not to pursue them", which depends on the assumption that we do have "natural ends", again implying intrinsic teleology. He follows in the next paragraph with the comment that "It should be even more obvious that as-if teleology can provide no objective standard of goodness", where "as-if teleology" means the type of teleology associated with things that work in a "mechanical" fashion. Finally see his later comment that "on the view of nature associated with Descartes, Newton, Boyle and Paley, the goodness or badness of various human actions cannot intelligibly be seen to follow from anything inherent to human nature itself, but rests entirely on the purposes of the divine artificer. Morality comes to seem no longer a matter of natural law but rather of sheer divine command."

    So, it seems from this that he is saying the "mechanistic" view of nature in which all physical activity is in principle explainable in terms of fundamental parts obeying natural laws is incompatible with the Aristotelian view of natural teleology, substances, and morality. Do you think I am misinterpreting his comments here (and if so, how?), or would you agree that these comments at least potentially indicate that Dr. Feser would say the type of "physical reductionism" I described would be inherently incompatible with the Aristotelian philosophy of nature and morality?

    The one way I can think that I might be misinterpreting him is that he might be OK with a universe that behaved in the same mathematical way everywhere as long as we conceived of these mathematical behaviors as being due to the intrinsic nature of certain wholes, not in terms of them passively obeying mathematical "laws." For example, one might say that God could create a universe that behaved exactly like the Game of Life, but there could still be intrinsic teleology in this universe if God made gliders be "natural forms" whose diagonal motions and cyclic transformations were part of their intrinsic teleology, in spite of the fact that these behaviors could be perfectly well predicted using only the knowledge of the states of the cells making them up and the mathematical rules that individual cells are always observed to conform to.

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  33. (continued from previous comment)
    This interpretation might be suggested by the following section:

    'As Ellis has put it, the early moderns replaced the Aristotelian notion of active powers with an essentially “passivist” conception of nature. For the Aristotelian-Scholastic tradition, by virtue of their substantial forms natural substances exhibit a directedness toward the generation of certain outcomes as toward a final cause. Efficient cause thus presupposes final cause or teleology, which in turn presupposes substantial form. Get rid of substantial form and final causality, and efficient causality in any robust sense -- any sense that entails an active tendency toward the generation of certain effects -- goes out the window with it. That is precisely why Hume’s puzzles about causation and induction followed upon the early moderns’ anti-Aristotelian revolution. What replaced active powers was the idea of natural phenomena as essentially passive -- as inherently directed toward no particular outcome at all -- on which certain “laws” have been imposed from outside. If A tends regularly to generate B, that is, on this new view, not because of anything intrinsic to A itself, but rather because it is simply a “law of nature” that A will be followed by B.'


    However, I would be skeptical that this is what he meant, and if it is what he meant I would say his position is somewhat incoherent. He seems to say that artificially created things can't be "natural forms", but only "accidental" ones, except in cases where humans are artificially replicating something which is already a natural form like fusing hydrogen and oxygen into water. but in a universe that behaves in a physical reductionist way, how could anyone but God possibly know which large-scale entities are actually "natural forms" and which aren't, given that they all behave in a way that can be predicted from the arrangement of their component parts and knowledge of the rules these component parts universally conform to? To return again to the Game of Life analogy, if you were watching a Game of Life simulation you would have no way of knowing whether it had been programmed in the "normal" way where the computer updates each individual cell based on its immediate neighbors, or whether it had been programmed in such a way that when a glider pattern appears, a new glider-specific subroutine is invoked with its own special rules of how gliders behave, even though this behavior happens to be identical to what you would get if you just followed the simpler rules for each cell. By the same token we would have no way of knowing whether God created the universe so that any given arrangement of particles would be a "natural form" that God had conceived of from the beginning of time--for example, if it was part of God's plan that humans eventually upload their minds into computers, a computer simulating a brain could be a "natural form" with natural teleology in spite of the fact that it was created by human art (just like his example of how water created artificially would still be a natural form). Similarly for his own examples of things he considers to be "accidental forms", like the hammock or the pile of rocks at the bottom of a hill. Remove the notion that large-scale forms behave in a way that couldn't be predicted from the small-scale parts alone, and you remove any real justification for claiming to know with any confidence whatsoever which large-scale forms are "natural" and which are "accidental", if indeed one believes that natural forms can exist at all in a universe that behaves in this way (which I am still doubtful that Dr. Feser would actually believe, given his arguments).

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  34. Reighley: For an argument is either sound or not based on its internal features, and their adherence to the rules we agree on.

    Well, it's valid or not based on the form. Whether it's sound depends on the truth of the premises, which cannot be determined from the language alone.

    I do not have to worry about time or contingency, for if the argument is sound it is sound regardless of who makes it or why or when.

    I've lost track of what the Anonymous response was, but I thought the original claim was that everything is math. If so, that claim is trivially refuted by noting that there exist qualia and time and other things which are self-evidently not mathematical objects. If that was not the original claim, then what was it?

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  35. Mr. Green:
    Eternalism vs. presentism is largely orthogonal to the question of whether time "is just" space, that is, whether it can be "reduced" to nothing more than a mathematical dimension.

    Well, I said specifically that I was only talking about time being "like" space in the specific ontological sense that events/objects at different times are equally real, just like we conceive of events/objects at different spatial locations as equally real; I do not deny that time is unlike space in a number of other respects. See my earlier comment to Glenn:

    Glenn, the key to understanding the eternalist view of time is that, ontologically, it is treated as no different from space (obviously it is different from space in other respects, but not in terms of how we think of the existence of different points in space or time).

    But besides being an eternalist, I also favor the "B theory of time" which denies any objective "present", see this comment I made to ozero91:

    Yes, I prefer the idea that there is no objective, observer-independent notion of "the present", just like there is no objective notion of what "here" means--both terms have meaning only relative to the location in spacetime where the speaker utters them. This is an idea known by philosophers as the "B theory of time" (a term based on an argument by the philosopher John McTaggart, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternalism_(philosophy_of_time)#McTaggart.27s_argument for a brief summary), and although it implies eternalism, it is conceptually distinct since an eternalist could theoretically believe that there is a moving spotlight of "nowness" moving along 4D spacetime which confers an objective truth about which events are happening in the present, even if "nowness" is not relevant to judging whether an event "exists", so it needn't conflict with the eternalist view that all events at all times have the same ontological status. In practice I don't think you'll find too many eternalists who deny the B theory, though.

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  36. JesseM: But do you think this is a sufficiently transparent issue that anyone who has a good understanding of the A-T philosophy would agree, or are you just giving a personal opinion about how you think the modern version of the A-T philosophy should be defined?

    I'm not an expert on A-T, but I'm confident in my explanation as far as it goes.

    1. In a totally mechanistic universe (and I think a "physical reductionist" universe as I defined it would qualify, at least if it was deterministic)

    This is the problem with calling cats "cows". In theory, terminology is arbitrary, but in practice one risks not only misleading others, but misleading oneself. As I and others pointed out, the typical meaning of "reductionist" in this context does indeed seem to indicate some kind of "mechanistic" universe, but you kept protesting that that wasn't what you meant at all. Given your meaning of "mathematically regular", then no, that does not qualify as mechanistic at all. At most, an A-T world with mathematical laws and a mechanistic world with mathematical laws might look the same on the "outside". A movie of you might look like you, but it does not qualify as you.

    2. However, the Aristotelian view says that people and living things do have intrinsic teleology, and are "natural substances".

    Sure. The world could, on A-T principles, be something else. But it actually does contain living things. All the people you see around you could be hallucinations. But they're not.

    which seems to say that Aquinas' First, Second and Fifth Ways depend on the assumption that things in the world do have intrinsic "ends" and "potentials", i.e. they must have intrinsic teleology.

    No, the First and Second Ways are not about final causes, and the Fifth Way is about final causes in general, not specifically intrinsic ends.

    [cont....]

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  37. [continued]
    Jesse: So, it seems from this that he is saying the "mechanistic" view of nature in which all physical activity is in principle explainable in terms of fundamental parts obeying natural laws is incompatible with the Aristotelian view of natural teleology, substances, and morality. Do you think I am misinterpreting his comments here (and if so, how?)

    Yes. Dr. Feser is in that post describing how the world actually is, not what is hypothetically "compatible" with A-T principles. Mechanisms are possible, and thus God could have created a world that contained nothing but mechanisms. The fact that if we isolate the purely mechanical aspects of reality (as science does) and then cannot tell by looking at those and only those aspects whether the universe contains other aspects or not is hardly surprising. If you supposed that only those mechanistic aspects were real, then yes, it follows that there can be no true morality. In other words, to suppose that morality and mere mechanism are both true, simultaneously, of the real world is impossible.

    For example, one might say that God could create a universe that behaved exactly like the Game of Life, but there could still be intrinsic teleology in this universe if God made gliders be "natural forms" whose diagonal motions and cyclic transformations were part of their intrinsic teleology, in spite of the fact that these behaviors could be perfectly well predicted using only the knowledge of the states of the cells making them up and the mathematical rules that individual cells are always observed to conform to.

    Yes, exactly.

    in a universe that behaves in a physical reductionist way, how could anyone but God possibly know which large-scale entities are actually "natural forms" and which aren't, given that they all behave in a way that can be predicted from the arrangement of their component parts

    Right, we couldn't know for sure. So what? I mean, I completely sympathise with the instinctive desire for a system that inevitably reveals comprehensive truth about any question we can ask… but there is no system that allows human beings to be omniscient. There's lots of stuff that we simply cannot know. A-T or not, all we can do is our best. I can't prove, with mathematical rigour, that piling up a few stones to make an inukshuk does not cause a new substance to come into being, but I can make a pretty good guess. I also cannot prove that you are not a hologram or an extraterrestrial, or that you exist at all — but again, there's an obvious sensible answer. One of the strengths of A-T is that it does not require us to believe that everyone else is a hallucination or that we only believe we have beliefs or that animals are not really alive. As G.K. Chesterton was recently quoted, it doesn't require us to scramble our brains to scramble our eggs.

    The claim is not that A-T can prove every fact beyond the shadow of a logical possibility, but that it is necessary to explain the stuff we can prove, and flexible enough to explain the stuff we can't. Even a "mechanistic" world requires form and matter and the four causes. I can't prove that you are human being, but I can prove that I am because I have direct experience of my awareness and reasoning, so there must be substance and intellect. And once I've got that, I get to explain other human beings for free. Other systems either have flat-out contradictions (e.g. laws of nature without teleology) or entail crazy stuff (e.g. there are no intentional beliefs) — usually both. And if they avoid those pitfalls, they turn out be some version or other of Aristotelianism, just disguised under different terminology.

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  38. @Glenn,

    "Seductive as this may be, I am not prepared to make the concession. And even if I were prepared to make the concession--and went ahead and did make it--it would not render false Anonymous' reductio."

    I don't recall anyone ever actually conceding a point in an internet discussion. I think it is against the rules somehow. The thing that is always fascinating is to use the argument as a lens through which to see the thought process of others. You and I start with some very different premises as to the nature of reality. It is now painfully obvious that I was far to ambitious laying out my program. I should have focussed from the outset on the question of whether translation was possible between human beings!

    Anyhow, without asserting that if @Anonymous' reductio doesn't work in the future, then it doesn't work now (and indeed I need something quite a bit stronger than that), I have no way of proceeding. I thank you and also @Anonymous for having graciously offered me some fundamental assumptions about reality that were different from the ones I had been using. I am not sure I can accept the gift, but I will give it due consideration.

    @Green,

    "If that was not the original claim, then what was it?"

    I took up the "world is a number" banner mainly to be provocative. In fact I was forced rather early to back off on that. The main thrust of the argument was to oppose arguments of the kind which you have just now given. I do not think a coherent argument can involve the phrase "is not a mathematical object". This is a limitation on finite languages and on arguments. Anything which is not a mathematical object is by it's nature inexpressible in a finite language, or at least that is my view.

    I would not have embarked on this course if I thought it trivially true that qualia were not mathematical objects, but what is the proper object of mathematics is also subject to some dispute (or so it seems to me).

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  39. Mr. Green:
    This is the problem with calling cats "cows". In theory, terminology is arbitrary, but in practice one risks not only misleading others, but misleading oneself. As I and others pointed out, the typical meaning of "reductionist" in this context does indeed seem to indicate some kind of "mechanistic" universe, but you kept protesting that that wasn't what you meant at all.

    No, I didn't. My protests were about how I didn't intend my use of "reductionism" to have any ontological implications about wholes being less "real" than parts. In the few places I mentioned the "mechanistic" view, I made clear that my reductionist view could reasonably be termed "mechanistic" (provided one does not define "mechanistic" in overly narrow ways like requiring it mean deterministic, or requiring that all physical interactions involve objects "mechanically" pushing and pulling each other due to being in direct contact). For example, see this comment I made to Eduardo:

    In that post Dr. Feser also talks about the mechanistic view of nature (basically identical to what I mean by "physical reductionism", although the mathematical laws governing fundamental entities may be so abstract and counterintuitive that the word "mechanical" is misleading)

    Also see this comment I made in response to one of your own posts:

    My point was that other aspects of the AT philosophy, like the idea that organisms are genuine sources of final causes, might imply that even though you are correct to say that all the physical movements of an organism would have efficient causes in terms of other physical movements, AT might require that some of these movements cannot be determined in a purely "mechanistic" (mathematical) way, but are instead more "vitalistic".

    Given your meaning of "mathematically regular", then no, that does not qualify as mechanistic at all.

    Why not? What is your definition of "mechanistic", such that a universe's being "mathematically regular" would not qualify it? I think most philosophers would say that a universe that followed the same mathematically regular behavior everywhere, like the Game of Life, would be a "mechanistic" universe.

    Sure. The world could, on A-T principles, be something else. But it actually does contain living things.

    Are you saying that a universe that behaved in the "physical reductionist" way I described would not contain "living things" as you define them?

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  40. (continued from previous comment)
    No, the First and Second Ways are not about final causes, and the Fifth Way is about final causes in general, not specifically intrinsic ends.

    When Dr. Feser said in that post that "That a natural substance has the teleological properties it does is something we can know just from studying the nature of the thing; no reference to God is necessary. But how is it that anything ever in fact actualizes the potentials inherent in its nature?", wouldn't you interpret his use of "potentials inherent in its nature" in the second sentence to refer to the intrinsic "teleological properties" of a "natural substance"? If so, I think it is reasonable to assume that in the next sentence, "That, as Aquinas’s First Way shows, is possible in principle only if there is an Unmoved Mover (or, to be more precise, an Unactualized Actualizer) which at every moment actualizes the potentials of things without itself having to be actualized in any way, the phrase "actualizes the potentials of things" is similarly assuming natural forms with intrinsic teleology. His references to the Fifth and Second way are more ambiguous, but I was assuming that since they all occur in the same paragraph which starts out talking about "the potentials inherent in its nature" (intrinsic teleology), that subsequent discussions of things having "ends" (in the sentence introducing the Fifth Way) and "natures" (in the sentence introducing the Second Way) were meant to be discussing the same notions of natural forms and intrinsic teleology.

    Yes. Dr. Feser is in that post describing how the world actually is, not what is hypothetically "compatible" with A-T principles. Mechanisms are possible, and thus God could have created a world that contained nothing but mechanisms.

    So you think he is just making assertions about scientific facts (without any evidence or arguments for these assertions) that are not intended to in any way be derivable from philosophical assumptions? If so, that seems like a weird interpretation to me, given that the entire post is about contrasting the Aristotelian philosophy of the natural world with the mechanistic one. He might agree that God could have created a purely mechanistic universe, but it doesn't follow that he believes such a universe could even in principle have the same observable features as our universe; he may be saying that some of these observable features (like organisms behaving in a way that suggests purposes, or our own experience of consciousness and intellectual judgments) are a priori incompatible with the hypothesis that our universe is constructed in a mechanistic way, according to the A-T philosophy.

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  41. (continued from previous comment)
    in a universe that behaves in a physical reductionist way, how could anyone but God possibly know which large-scale entities are actually "natural forms" and which aren't, given that they all behave in a way that can be predicted from the arrangement of their component parts

    Right, we couldn't know for sure. So what?

    You say "for sure" as if we could at least have informed speculations, but short of divine revelation about which forms God picked as natural and which He didn't, I don't see how this would work. Since objects would behave exactly the same way regardless of whether their forms were natural or accidental, it would seem like God would have total freedom in defining which particular arrangements of components of parts would fall into which category--for example some animals might be natural forms while others might be mere accidental arrangements like the pile of rocks in Dr. Feser's example, and it might have been part of God's plan that intelligent beings would eventually create certain objects like hammocks or mind uploads, so those might have been natural forms built into the fabric of reality since the beginning of time, even though no examples of these forms came into being until humans fabricated them. If we are sticking to natural philosophy and natural theology without making use of information from religious texts, it's hard to see how there could be any basis for making claims about which arrangements of basic components are more likely to be natural forms and which are more likely to be accidental forms, if the universe behaved in a physical reductionist way (except perhaps if one takes first-person conscious experience as evidence that oneself is a natural form, in which case one might generalize and say that other things which externally appear like oneself are too, but I don't see how this reasoning could be extended to inanimate "forms" like water...also, if Dr. Feser would agree that the inference of biological organisms as natural forms depends critically on first-person experience in this way, it's odd that he didn't make the slightest mention of an argument from first-person experience in that long post).

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  42. reighley,

    ...without asserting that if @Anonymous' reductio doesn't work in the future, then it doesn't work now (and indeed I need something quite a bit stronger than that), I have no way of proceeding.

    Do not be disheartened. If it is the case that what may be a matter of fact in the future necessarily must be presently a matter of fact, then, since Anonymous and I in the future will be deceased, it necessarily must be the case that we are presently deceased. That profitable headway has not been made, therefore, may be chalked up to your having attempted to reason with a pair of cadavers. ;)

    I should have focussed from the outset on the question of whether translation was possible between human beings!... I thank you and also @Anonymous for having graciously offered me some fundamental assumptions about reality that were different from the ones I had been using.

    Yes, there seem to be many different ways in which different people think.

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  43. My protests were about how I didn't intend my use of "reductionism" to have any ontological implications about wholes being less "real" than parts.

    At the same time however you claimed to be able to predict human behavior by simply making reference to particle configuration and quantum laws. That means that the wholes are superfluous and thus have no causal efficacy. There seems to be a contradiction in your assertions.

    Taken from the article you linked: “the best way to understand complex systems is to analyze their component parts, ignoring higher-level structures”. If this statement is true then reductionism holds. If however, higher-level structures (regardless if you can model them mathematically or not) are not reducible to mere particles and elementary laws, but to paraphrase Roger Sperry, become themselves explanatory causal constructs, interacting at their own level with their own dynamics, then you have forms and thus AT. Which one you choose is up to you and you can call it whatever you like but it won’t really change what it actually is and what it logically entails.

    My point was that other aspects of the AT philosophy, like the idea that organisms are genuine sources of final causes, might imply that even though you are correct to say that all the physical movements of an organism would have efficient causes in terms of other physical movements

    One thing that I remember Feser stressing was that efficient causes without teleology are problematic in AT philosophy. Of course, you need to remember that relationship between efficient cause and teleology in Aristotelian terms is the direction the efficient cause “points to” (Feser goes over this in his book TLS), not some ghostly force, which is what is sometimes meant when modernists use the world vitalism.

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  44. Anonymous:
    Your answer is quite long. You take a long time and many words to make a point.

    It's long partly because you raise a host of criticisms and I feel like I should respond to each one. If you want the answers to be shorter, I suggest confining yourself to a small number of specific criticisms.

    I don’t really care about semantic anyway so I’m not going to comment further on your use of reductionism. I just find it misleading.

    Again, if you are at all bothered by the term, suggest a different term for the same idea and I'm happy to use it.

    You also don’t seem to have any interest in ontology so or maybe don’t want to go there because much of what you’re using to describe that which you call “physical reductionism” appeals to Aristotelian principles.

    How so?

    This right here from the article you provided: “the best way to understand complex systems is to analyze their component parts, ignoring higher-level structures”. (I certainly don’t have the time to listen to an hour long discussion

    I hadn't even watched the discussion, I was just linking to the blog post for its discussion of reductionism (for those trying to follow along, that link again is http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/11/03/physicalist-anti-reductionism/ ). And you said before you don't care about semantics, but your criticism above seems to boil down to a purely semantic criticism that Sean Carroll uses "reductionism" differently than I do! In any case, you completely misread the post--the statement from Sean Carroll that you quoted was intended to describe a strawman version of reductionism that, in his experience, no reductionism actually advocates. The context of that comment was Try as I may, I can’t come up with a non-straw-man version of what it is the anti-reductionists are actually objecting to. You could object to the claim that “the best way to understand complex systems is to analyze their component parts, ignoring higher-level structures” but only if you can find someone who actually makes that claim.' Then he goes on to give his notion of reductionism, which is that "objects are completely defined by the states of their components." He doesn't say exactly what he means by "defined", but then he goes on to say of the person he is arguing with, 'Dupré doesn’t give a very convincing answer, except to suggest that you would also need to know the conditions of the environment in which the elephant found itself, to know how it would react. That’s fine, just give the states of all the particles making up the environment. I’m not sure why this is really an objection. That "know how it would react" is key, I think--when he says an object is "defined" by the state of its components, he means that the state of its components is what you need to know how it would "react", i.e. predict how it will behave in the future (in physics, the "state" of a system generally refers to whatever traits are needed to predict how it will behave, or how it will influence the behavior of other systems it interacts with, given their own states). So I think his definition is indeed equivalent to mine.

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  45. (continued from previous comment)
    I certainly think the behavior of DNA and of cells could be accurately simulated by a computer that was programmed with nothing more than the initial configuration of all the particles and the fundamental quantum laws governing their dynamics.

    Can you show this to me?

    Not yet, computers still aren't sufficiently powerful--it's just a personal prediction about what will be found in the future if computing power keeps increasing. My bet would be that this isn't so far off--they have also been able to simulate the behavior of an entire cell by simulating all its genes and proteins and their individual interactions, see http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/07/computerized-model-organism-complete-stanford.php?ref=fpblg , though in this case I assume the models of DNA and proteins are simplified ones based on empirical data that don't derive their behavior from basic quantum laws, and I also suspect the simulation didn't encompass all the molecules in a cell, like the cell membrane and all the water molecules within it. Meanwhile, it is also currently possible to derive the behaviors of individual "proteins and other large biological molecules" (though I think not as large as an entire DNA strand) from basic quantum laws, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_chemistry#Molecular_mechanics for example. The collective behavior of large numbers of simpler molecules can also be simulated using only quantum laws, see the simulation of many interacting water molecules discussed at http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2007/mar/water030207.html

    But please understand that when I bring up arguments for the plausibility of physical reductionism, it's mainly because I want to show it's an idea that should be engaged with seriously even for those who don't think it's true--surely an idea that most physical scientists take for granted, and many modern philosophers studying philosophy of mind do too, shouldn't just be casually dismissed with incredulity. And part of engaging the idea seriously, IMO, is seriously considering the issue of whether this sort of reductionist view is hypothetically compatible with other philosophical views like the A-T view, or whether they are mutually exclusive. I don't intend to try to persuade you physical reductionism really is true in our universe, I'm just asking you to think about this question of the consistency or inconsistency of physical reductionism with A-T assumptions. You don't need to believe in physical reductionism for a second to do that.

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  46. (continued from previous comment)

    I don't understand what you mean by "at every level there is a new dynamic in operation"--are you just saying that we need not just the initial state but also the dynamical laws (a function operating on the initial state), or are you saying that large-scale systems behave in ways that would be fundamentally impossible to predict using the initial state of the basic constituents and the fundamental dynamical laws?

    Since we’re talking about mind uploading I’ll use that example. I do not think you can enter into a simulation the configuration of particles and quantum laws and create an entity that could be referred to as a human being in any meaningful way.

    But again, here you are just telling me that you don't believe physical reductionism is true in reality--I already knew that, it wasn't what I was asking you. I was asking whether, if it was hypothetically true (whether in our universe, or an alternate universe which behaved exactly like the Game of Life) it would still be permissible to say "at every level there is a new dynamic in operation" if you did see large systems behave in qualitatively new and interesting ways that seemed to follow their own high-level rules (like the behavior of gliders), even though in principle these high-level rules and behaviors could be predicted from the configuration of the basic components and the fundamental mathematical rules they are always observed to conform to.

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  47. Anonymous:
    At the same time however you claimed to be able to predict human behavior by simply making reference to particle configuration and quantum laws.

    I have not "claimed" this is true for the purposes of this discussion--I personally believe it's likely, but you misunderstand my arguments badly if you think they revolve around the question of whether physical reductionism is actually true. As always, the main question I want to deal with here is whether the hypothetical possibility that our universe might work this way would be compatible with the A-T philosophy, or if the two are mutually exclusive.

    That means that the wholes are superfluous and thus have no causal efficacy.

    I don't think that needs to be the case, as "causal efficacy" is more of a philosophical concept than one that can be tested by empirical observations. As I said in a recent comment to Mr. Green:

    For example, one might say that God could create a universe that behaved exactly like the Game of Life, but there could still be intrinsic teleology in this universe if God made gliders be "natural forms" whose diagonal motions and cyclic transformations were part of their intrinsic teleology, in spite of the fact that these behaviors could be perfectly well predicted using only the knowledge of the states of the cells making them up and the mathematical rules that individual cells are always observed to conform to.

    Mr. Green's comment was "Yes, exactly", which I take to mean that he agrees a "whole" like a glider could have some causal efficacy even in a universe where its behavior could be predicted from the state of its parts and the mathematical rules they were always observed to conform to.

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  48. @jesse

    you completely misread the post--the statement from Sean Carroll that you quoted was intended to describe a strawman version of reductionism that, in his experience, no reductionism actually advocates. The context of that comment was Try as I may, I can’t come up with a non-straw-man version of what it is the anti-reductionists are actually objecting to. You could object to the claim that “the best way to understand complex systems is to analyze their component parts, ignoring higher-level structures” but only if you can find someone who actually makes that claim.'

    I did not misunderstand what carroll is saying at all. I just used a direct quote from what you provided to explain reductionism as commonly understood. Here it is one more time:
    Taken from the article you linked: “the best way to understand complex systems is to analyze their component parts, ignoring higher-level structures”. If this statement is true then reductionism holds. If however, higher-level structures (regardless if you can model them mathematically or not) are not reducible to mere particles and elementary laws, but to paraphrase Roger Sperry, become themselves explanatory causal constructs, interacting at their own level with their own dynamics, then you have forms and thus AT.

    So I did not misunderstand it but used that specific quote to make a point about what the term refers to.

    The accusation of strawman is more of a gimmick on carroll’s part. There are plenty of individuals that are followers of reductionism but even if there weren’t that is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is what reductionism logically entails. Taken to its logical conclusion therefore, reductionism is what I have explained several times using. The problem now is that the view of reductionism has become increasingly unpopular and shown not only to be problematic but downright incoherent. Rosenberg, who is shown in the video wrote a book based on scientistic reductionism, which Feser reviews and offers various refutations of it. Also, I’ve read some of carroll’s attempts at philosophy, including his why are most cosmologist atheists and found his understanding to be quite limited, filled with fallacies, not the least of which were strawmen ironically. I’m not really interested how carol misconstrues reductionism, because if he really is a follower of Rosenberg on reductionism a plethora of problems would arise. How exactly is it a strawman (as per carroll) to say that reductionism as illustrated by Rosenberg is absurd because it denies semantic meaning? It isn’t. It’s simply a logical conclusion. You should read the reviews of the book by Feser for the details.

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  49. But please understand that when I bring up arguments for the plausibility of physical reductionism, it's mainly because I want to show it's an idea that should be engaged with seriously even for those who don't think it's true--surely an idea that most physical scientists take for granted, and many modern philosophers studying philosophy of mind do too, shouldn't just be casually dismissed with incredulity. And part of engaging the idea seriously, IMO, is seriously considering the issue of whether this sort of reductionist view is hypothetically compatible with other philosophical views like the A-T view, or whether they are mutually exclusive.
    I use to take it seriously but I no longer do. I find the view to be incoherent and also believe as I mentioned earlier, who claim to be reductionists often appeal to forms, wholes and teleology both implicitly and explicitly in their work. At this point in my intellectual development I find it extremely difficult to take reductionism seriously due to the many problems it faces including self-referentially incoherent. In as much as the compatibility of empirical fact and AT are concerned I think Mr. Green covered the main points already. I don’t see how empirical facts would falsify AT.


    I have not "claimed" this is true for the purposes of this discussion--I personally believe it's likely, but you misunderstand my arguments badly if you think they revolve around the question of whether physical reductionism is actually true. As always, the main question I want to deal with here is whether the hypothetical possibility that our universe might work this way would be compatible with the A-T philosophy, or if the two are mutually exclusive.


    Come on. You believe it’s likely and not believe it’s true? You were not happy when I dismissed that idea, which I think is indicative that you would hold it to be valid. If all you really care for is whether your view of reality is compatible with AT then I think you need to be a little more clear about certain things as the meaning of certain claims you make to me at least sound confusing. I don’t blame you because words like emergence especially can be used to mean various things each of which has a different ontological significance.

    I don't think that needs to be the case, as "causal efficacy" is more of a philosophical concept than one that can be tested by empirical observations.
    This I think is another subtle meaning that makes things a little more vague. Of course causality is not something you can test empirically because it’s what the empirical needs to presuppose in order to operate in the first place (let’s stay away from skeptical games of patterns of correlations vs causality, nominalism vs realism for now unless the issue you want to raise is a deeper one).

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  50. Mr. Green's comment was "Yes, exactly", which I take to mean that he agrees a "whole" like a glider could have some causal efficacy even in a universe where its behavior could be predicted from the state of its parts and the mathematical rules they were always observed to conform to.

    I have no problem agreeing with what Mr. Green said so far in his posts.
    I honestly think that our discussion is hindered by semantic though because sometimes when I read you response in one way I can easily say I have nothing to dispute but reading it another I do. I think I have a clearer idea of what you mean so to help me better understand answer me this:

    When you say that it’s likely that one day you can predict the behavior of a human using particles and QM alone (in some computational model I am assuming), do you mean that you will not be referencing psychological dynamics for example? I am trying to visualize what you mean exactly and since you complained that I misunderstood you, perhaps answering my question and maybe mapping out how exactly you get from QM + particles to a human decision.

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  51. *Should read:

    I honestly think that our discussion is hindered by semantic differences.

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  52. Anonymous:
    I just used a direct quote from what you provided to explain reductionism as commonly understood.

    "Understood" by who? Not by Carroll, who called it a strawman and said he didn't know of anyone who actually advocated the strawman version he described. Do you know of any prominent figures who advocate that version? If you think you can point to a single prominent example, please provide a quote from them showing that they really believe something equivalent to "the best way to understand complex systems is to analyze their component parts, ignoring higher-level structures”.

    What is relevant is what reductionism logically entails. Taken to its logical conclusion therefore, reductionism is what I have explained several times using.

    Are you saying that reductionism as I defined it (which I think is equivalent to the form of reductionism Carroll actually advocates, not the strawman version he presented) logically entails some more drastic belief like the view that wholes are "unreal" or that "the best way to understand complex systems is to analyze their component parts, ignoring higher-level structures”? If so, you need to actually explain the logic of how you go from my version to these stronger conclusions (or point to a source that does so), not just assert it.

    How exactly is it a strawman (as per carroll) to say that reductionism as illustrated by Rosenberg is absurd because it denies semantic meaning? It isn’t. It’s simply a logical conclusion. You should read the reviews of the book by Feser for the details.

    Are you referring to the post at http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/04/reading-rosenberg-part-ix.html ? If so, note that Feser is specifically referring to Rosenberg's eliminative materialism, not just his reductionism--but eliminative materialism is an ontological claim about matter being the only thing that exists, and I have said all along that I am not defining "reductionism" in a way that makes ontological claims. I also said that I personally am most sympathetic to a Chalmers-like view that sees the physical world as being "causally closed" and functioning in the reductionist way I described, but with subjective experiences having their own reality, and some kind of "psychophysical laws" determining the relation between physical states and subjective experiences, possibly implying a type of panpsychism where all networks of causally-related events were associated with some form of subjective experience (see also the discussion of "naturalistic panpsychism" at http://www.hedweb.com/lockwood.htm#naturalistic ). And Dr. Feser specifically mentions in that article that this is one way out of the dilemma he described about a mechanical universe lacking semantic meaning:

    "Now there are several alternative conclusions one could draw from this ... A third possibility would be the panpsychist position that matter can possess intentionality insofar as all matter is associated with mental properties of some sort. (This differs from the A-T view insofar as A-T would deny that thought or consciousness of any sort exists below the level of animals. To be sure, plants and inorganic processes exhibit immanent final causality, but from the A-T point of view it is possible for something to possess inherent finality even if it is devoid of thought or consciousness.) A fourth possibility would be to take the idealist view that there really is no such thing as matter in the first place, but only mind."

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  53. Jesse, there was this guy called David Hume... Also I bet that most materialists and naturalists, Carroll is a naturalist, defend that, what really exist is just these fundamental rules, all rest is either illusion or explained/deduced by the principles.

    Nooooow, sorry if I am not following what you saying more carefully, but you don't seem to defend this position. But Carroll does! Because Naturalism is just that. To believe in this underlying order or rules that create everything. Carroll probably doesn't see or doesn't care about what his position entails because... Heck, he is right, naturalism is true...

    Or the truth is naturalism...

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  54. @Glenn,
    "If it is the case that what may be a matter of fact in the future necessarily must be presently a matter of fact, then, since Anonymous and I in the future will be deceased, it necessarily must be the case that we are presently deceased."

    Oh now, do not taunt me in my moment of existential angst. I did not ask for any and all statements to be eternally true. I just needed certain ones to be.

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  55. Anonymous:
    I use to take it seriously but I no longer do. I find the view to be incoherent and also believe as I mentioned earlier, who claim to be reductionists often appeal to forms, wholes and teleology both implicitly and explicitly in their work.

    By "taking it seriously" I didn't mean you should grant any real possibility that it's true, just that, as I said "it's an idea that should be engaged with seriously even for those who don't think it's true". "Engaged with seriously" would mean both presenting thoughtful arguments against it rather than just reacting with incredulity and making non-specific critical comments like that it's "incoherent" without providing a detailed argument (or a link to one elsewhere). And I think it would also mean a willingness to entertain hypotheticals about what we could conclude about a possible world where it is true, such as whether the A-T philosophy would still make sense in such a world.

    Come on. You believe it’s likely and not believe it’s true?

    I don't really understand the difference--if I believe something is likely, that means I believe it's likely to be true. Are you asking whether I am 100% certain that it's true? Of course not, it's not like there's any really definitive evidence it's true in the case of human brains, for example. I would call it a very strong hunch, but I can't claim to know that the hunch is correct.

    You were not happy when I dismissed that idea, which I think is indicative that you would hold it to be valid.

    I hold it to be extremely likely that it's valid, but I recognize that this is just a personal opinion and not knowledge. Regardless of my personal beliefs, my arguments on this thread have never been primarily about trying to convince others of this opinion, nor does my central question about reductionism's compatibility with A-T require others to share it.

    If all you really care for is whether your view of reality is compatible with AT then I think you need to be a little more clear about certain things as the meaning of certain claims you make to me at least sound confusing.

    Can you be specific? I provided you with a pretty clear-cut definition of what I meant by physical reductionism early on, for example.

    I don’t blame you because words like emergence especially can be used to mean various things each of which has a different ontological significance.

    I think there would be little ambiguity about what I meant by emergence for anyone who had taken a few minutes to understand the glider/Game of Life example I used to explain it. Have you done so, after I asked that you please do so?

    I have no problem agreeing with what Mr. Green said so far in his posts.

    So, you agree that a glider in a Game-of-Life universe might behave in a way that matches my definition of "physical reductionism", yet still be a natural form with causal efficacy, a whole that is no less real than its parts?

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  56. (continued from previous comment)
    When you say that it’s likely that one day you can predict the behavior of a human using particles and QM alone

    I didn't say that was likely--that would require vastly more computational power than simulating a human brain at the level of neurons! My definition of "physical reductionism" doesn't say it is ever likely to be possible in practice to simulate all systems at the quantum level, just that the universe behaves in such a way that this would in principle be possible for a hypothetical Laplacian demon with unlimited knowledge about the initial state of all the particles and unlimited power to compute their subsequent behavior using only the fundamental physical laws that these particles follow.

    do you mean that you will not be referencing psychological dynamics for example? I am trying to visualize what you mean exactly and since you complained that I misunderstood you, perhaps answering my question and maybe mapping out how exactly you get from QM + particles to a human decision.

    No, no higher-level concepts such as "psychological dynamics" would be needed for either a hypothetical Laplacian demon using quantum laws, or a more realistic mind upload scenario where the the computer just has some simplified model of how individual neurons function and interact with neighbors they are directly connected to, and some sort of "wiring diagram" of all the neurons in the brain. Either way, the hypothesis is that the basic laws of the system (fundamental physical laws governing particles in the first place, rules governing individual neurons and their interactions with immediate neighbors in the second case) plus the initial configuration of all the basic elements (configuration of particles or configuration of neurons) would be sufficient to get the right high-level behavior as a consequence. Again, the simple comparison is to the higher-level behavior of gliders (moving diagonally, flipping through a sequence of four shapes over and over) emerges as a natural consequence of applying the basic rules of how cells change in the Game of Life to an initial configuration of cells that looks like one of the four glider shapes. Again, please tell me if you have looked at this example, as I asked that you do before:

    You don't need to know anything about Conway's "work" beyond the exceedingly simple rules governing the behavior of individual cells (each "cell" is a square surrounded by 8 other squares; a black or "live" cell stays black on the next turn if it has either 2 or 3 black neighbors, while it turns white or "dead" if it has less than 2 or more than 3 black neighbors; meanwhile, if a cell which is white on one turn has exactly 3 black neighbors, it turns black on the next turn, otherwise it stays white). Then you should have little trouble convincing yourself that if an collection of black cells is arranged into any one of the five patterns at http://www.generation5.org/content/2003/images/gliderStep.png then as long as these black cells in an "empty" region surrounded by white cells so there's nothing to disrupt them, they will keep cycling through the five configurations shown, "gliding" through the grid diagonally as seen in the animation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Animated_glider_emblem.gif (this cycling and gliding is a high-level behavior derivable from the underlying rules governing cell transitions).

    Please take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with this simple example. If you aren't willing to do that, I would prefer not to continue our discussion at all.

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  57. Eduardo:
    Nooooow, sorry if I am not following what you saying more carefully, but you don't seem to defend this position. But Carroll does!

    Yes, but in that post he was talking specifically about his notion of "reductionism" which I think matches the definition I gave, not "naturalism" or "materialism" (my preferred position is the sort of naturalistic panpsychism discussed at http://www.hedweb.com/lockwood.htm#naturalistic and also in some of Chalmers' work, so I would agree with naturalism but not "materialism" as it's usually defined). Carroll's more general philosophical beliefs aren't relevant here, I only cited him for that specific blog post defining "reductionism".

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  58. Jesse, I think your question was answered no? AT would have no problem with your mathematical reductionism... Aka, neing able describe things through mathematics, using equations modeled after the parts of an object that seem to, after we operate on them, produce higher order laws.


    I think people have been trying to tell you this... And that eliminatism sucks dick up the ass.

    Did miss anything?

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  59. I really think you people have just started to bitch about words, and the substance behind them. Well Reighley being the exception, he sort of put things in well defined terms.

    At least that is what it sounds... Looks like from here.

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  60. Eduardo:
    Jesse, I think your question was answered no? AT would have no problem with your mathematical reductionism

    Mr. Green said this, but I had some followup questions about whether his answer was compatible with Dr. Feser's statement in the post on "atheist teleology". I also had questions about specific details of how Mr. Green thinks they would fit together, like whether he thinks there are any observations we can make in this universe that demonstrate beyond all shadow of doubt that our universe doesn't operate in this reductionist fashion, and if not, whether the hypothesis that our universe is reductionist would imply that we'd have absolutely no basis for judging which forms were "natural" vs. "accidental".

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  61. @jesse


    No, no higher-level concepts such as "psychological dynamics" would be needed for either a hypothetical Laplacian demon using quantum laws, or a more realistic mind upload scenario where the the computer just has some simplified model of how individual neurons function and interact with neighbors they are directly connected to, and some sort of "wiring diagram" of all the neurons in the brain. Either way, the hypothesis is that the basic laws of the system (fundamental physical laws governing particles in the first place, rules governing individual neurons and their interactions with immediate neighbors in the second case) plus the initial configuration of all the basic elements (configuration of particles or configuration of neurons) would be sufficient to get the right high-level behavior as a consequence.


    Correct me if I am reading you right...

    So according to your modeling then all activity is based on the activity of the fundamental particles and nothing else. If that's the case then how are the wholes and higher-level structures not superfluous?

    Also, do you disagree with Sperry's anti-reductionist account regarding the contents and operations of consciousness?

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  62. I see, well... Would have to search his answers then.

    Carry on Carry on, you geeks... Philosophical nerds. Talking stuff I don't even know what it means exactly. Oh don't need to explain stuff for me folks, I will plow my way through the literature eventually.

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  63. So according to your modeling then all activity is based on the activity of the fundamental particles and nothing else. If that's the case then how are the wholes and higher-level structures not superfluous?

    Not sure what implicit philosophical assumptions are carried by colloquial terms like "based on" or "superfluous", so I can't really answer in the context of this philosophy-centric discussion without risk of further miscommunication. Have you looked at the Game of Life/glider example, or not? This is the best way I can think of to clear up ambiguous terminology, so if you aren't willing to put in the (brief) time it would take to familiarize yourself with the example, then I'll tend to conclude you aren't much interested in improving our mutual understanding, in which case I would prefer to just drop the discussion. If are willing to review this example, then once you do, consider the example I posed to Mr. Green:

    For example, one might say that God could create a universe that behaved exactly like the Game of Life, but there could still be intrinsic teleology in this universe if God made gliders be "natural forms" whose diagonal motions and cyclic transformations were part of their intrinsic teleology, in spite of the fact that these behaviors could be perfectly well predicted using only the knowledge of the states of the cells making them up and the mathematical rules that individual cells are always observed to conform to.

    Would you disagree that "intrinsic teleology" and "natural forms" (as well as "causal efficacy" which you brought up) are compatible in the A-T philosophy with something that behaves in a way that can be predicted perfectly by knowing the state of all its components and the basic rules they obey, as would still be true of gliders in the above example? Would you say that the glider's activity is "based on" the activity of its parts in that example? Would you say the higher-level notion of a glider is "superfluous"?

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  64. @Eduardo,

    "Well Reighley being the exception, he sort of put things in well defined terms."

    "sort of" being the operative term. And look where the very idea of "well defined" terms got me! I wish I had been making that translation argument ironically. I'm not sure what people even mean by "true" at this point.

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  65. Don't go nutz reighley! You still have your whole life ahead of you, is too soon to live on pills!

    Now about that glider of yours Jesse, i think that it all depends. If we take the glider and cut in five parts, and try to use each part... Will it still work as a glider? Wouldn't the mathematical formulas for trajectory and forces show up in different forms?

    It seems that the glider or living creatures are really a whole, the parts only experimentally reveal their "job" in the whole if there are certain conditions.

    It seems that your questions really do entail certain ontological things.

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  66. sorry, forgot to reply to this part:
    Also, do you disagree with Sperry's anti-reductionist account regarding the contents and operations of consciousness?

    I hadn't been familiar with Sperry's anti-reductionist views, but some quick googling turned up a summary at http://books.google.com/books?id=sUgnio874NUC&lpg=PA97&pg=PA97#v=onepage&q&f=false - based on that, I would indeed disagree, as would most neuroscientists I suspect.

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  67. Eduardo:
    Now about that glider of yours Jesse, i think that it all depends. If we take the glider and cut in five parts, and try to use each part...

    Not sure what you mean by "cut" in the context of the Game of Life--do you mean moving sections of the glider to different squares so they are no longer adjacent? If so, it obviously wouldn't work as a glider, but I don't get what this is meant to prove.

    Wouldn't the mathematical formulas for trajectory and forces show up in different forms?

    What do you mean "trajectory and forces"? The individual cells in the Game of Life just follow the simple rules I referred to before, which don't involve either trajectories or forces:

    each square "cell" is a square surrounded by 8 other cells; a black or "live" cell stays black on the next turn if it has either 2 or 3 black neighbors, while it turns white or "dead" if it has less than 2 or more than 3 black neighbors; meanwhile, if a cell which is white on one turn has exactly 3 black neighbors, it turns black on the next turn, otherwise it stays white

    You can actually play around with the Game of Life using the java applet at http://www.bitstorm.org/gameoflife/ (here "live" cells are yellow and "dead" cells are grey). The default starting configuration is a glider, you can advance it step by step to see how the "live" squares change, following the rules I described, and as a consequence the glider moves diagonally. But you can also change manually which cells are live and dead by clicking on them, so if you want to make a starting configuration where you have pieces of a glider at different locations (or any other starting configuration you might like to test), you can try that.

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  68. I think is sort of referring to something. Imagine thos fundamental blocks of reality. Everything is made of them. You can get a block and take it to the lab to run experiments on it. You can create a series of rules to how these blocks operate in different situations. The situations are created by other blocks. Of these mathematical characteristics, we can deduce the behavior of walls and even houses made with these blocks. Is AT compatible with this shit?

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  69. Jesse, your mathematical reductionism, reduces the formulas of the glider to the formula of its parts.

    Is simple, is just like a bridge, if you build just the top, or just the bottom, or just the left or right side, the "bridge" will behave in different ways that it normally would. Imagine if I build the right side of the bridge and you build the left. Each side can only be sustained if the other side is ATTACHED to it. We put both ours sides together without attaching them, and the bridge falls. So basically saying... The parts of that bridge did not behaved as the whole, you seem to agree with that, which means that what you are really talking is some kind of fundamental brick of reality that has the power to create it all... Or to produce it all, like bricks build houses.

    You have unwantedly chosen and certain ontological position, why trying not to. That was what I am trying to get at.... I know, it didn't look like that

    But the basic concept, is that deep down, you have chosen some form of monism, and attached to that monistic view, mathematical formulas, and blamed the mathematical formulas for things that actually your monistic view is guilty of.

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  70. Let me tell you how you could untangle the conversation. Ask someone with good grasp on AT metaphysics, how they would interpret the formation of molecules...

    If you think there are problems with that interpretation, then I think you might decide that AT is not compatible with your mathemathical reductionism.

    That is my 50 cent.....

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  71. Eduardo:
    Jesse, your mathematical reductionism, reduces the formulas of the glider to the formula of its parts.

    It says the behavior of a glider can be predicted in terms of the behavior of the parts (which conforms to a certain simple formula). But again consider the comment I made to Mr. Green:

    For example, one might say that God could create a universe that behaved exactly like the Game of Life, but there could still be intrinsic teleology in this universe if God made gliders be "natural forms" whose diagonal motions and cyclic transformations were part of their intrinsic teleology, in spite of the fact that these behaviors could be perfectly well predicted using only the knowledge of the states of the cells making them up and the mathematical rules that individual cells are always observed to conform to.

    Along with this one:

    if you were watching a Game of Life simulation you would have no way of knowing whether it had been programmed in the "normal" way where the computer updates each individual cell based on its immediate neighbors, or whether it had been programmed in such a way that when a glider pattern appears, a new glider-specific subroutine is invoked with its own special rules of how gliders behave, even though this behavior happens to be identical to what you would get if you just followed the simpler rules for each cell.

    So I think the fact that the behavior of the glider can be predicted in terms of the rules for its parts doesn't automatically mean that the parts are ontologically "fundamental" and the whole isn't.

    But the basic concept, is that deep down, you have chosen some form of monism, and attached to that monistic view, mathematical formulas, and blamed the mathematical formulas for things that actually your monistic view is guilty of.

    I am not stating dogmatically that this type of reductionism is definitely true, just saying I find it plausible (as do most scientists, it isn't some idiosyncratic idea I've come up with on my own) and asking about how it would fit with A-T metaphysics if it were true. And even if we entertain the idea that it is true, "reductionism" as I've defined it only deals with what could (in principle) be predicted from a knowledge of the state of the parts, it doesn't automatically imply the parts have a more fundamental "reality", for the reasons I argued above. And remember that I've said that I lean towards Chalmers' view that conscious experiences can't be reduced to physical states, even if there are "psychophysical laws" that create a one-to-one relation between physical states and conscious experiences (implying that "wholes" would play a fundamental role in these laws, since each experience would presumably be mapped to a whole complicated network of collection of interrelated events in the brain). So if I were to be a monist, I would have to be an idealist one rather than a materialist one (sometimes I consider the idea that mathematical objects really a kind of ideal object in the mind of God, so that an idealist metaphysics wouldn't have to conflict with the mathematical view of nature).

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  72. Well, your reductionism is.... Dunno. Pragmatic at best?

    I am not saying that you behaving dogmatically, I meant to say that the mathematical reductionism I had in my mind ended up entailing some form fundamental brick concept.

    But now that you rephrased your point of view... I don't see why AT is not compatible with your idea. Dunno, it seems like the talk is over, you have the necessary information to formulate the answer.

    But whatever, let's wait and see what others have to say.

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  73. @jesse

    I hadn't been familiar with Sperry's anti-reductionist views, but some quick googling turned up a summary at http://books.google.com/books?id=sUgnio874NUC&lpg=PA97&pg=PA97#v=onepage&q&f=false - based on that, I would indeed disagree, as would most neuroscientists I suspect.

    This is the core of our disagreement then. The book you linked in fact, in the very first paragraph illustrates the very exact notion of anti-reductionism that I have been discussing from the start. Including reference to causal efficacy as a criterion of emergence. If you disagree with Sperry, who for me is the lowest possible form of "reductionism" (it's not reductionistic per se but rather more reductionistic than other systems) that I would find acceptable.

    I wouldn't be so sure that neuroscientists would happily espouse your view but even if they did that means nothing. Fallacies of appeals to authority again. Stuff like that has no place in philosophical discourse. There are also many criticisms of the practice of neuroscience and the assumptions some make. Again Feser has several posts on this.

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  74. @jesse

    sometimes I consider the idea that mathematical objects really a kind of ideal object in the mind of God, so that an idealist metaphysics wouldn't have to conflict with the mathematical view of nature

    Wait... You're a mathematical, idealist, Theist?

    That's pretty much the route Bishop Berkeley (not necessarily mathematical only) took and it's indeed compatible with a mathematical universe.

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  75. Also, I don't understand how you resist the terms that I introduced and call them colloquial as if that in any way diminishes their meaning when they are referenced in the book you linked... I just realized that and it's quite odd!

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  76. Anonymous:
    This is the core of our disagreement then. The book you linked in fact, in the very first paragraph illustrates the very exact notion of anti-reductionism that I have been discussing from the start. Including reference to causal efficacy as a criterion of emergence. If you disagree with Sperry, who for me is the lowest possible form of "reductionism" (it's not reductionistic per se but rather more reductionistic than other systems) that I would find acceptable.

    I interpreted comments in the book like "consciousness ... acts downwardly in regulating brain events" and "mind moves matter in the brain" to be saying that one couldn't in principle predict the behavior of the brain from the rules its component parts obey. It's possible I'm misunderstanding, and that Sperry's view is compatible with the perspective I suggested in my comment to Mr. Green, where the higher-level structures (the glider in that example) are "natural forms" with their own teleology/causal efficacy, despite their behavior being predictable, in principle, from knowledge of their component parts. (This might be suggested by the comment on p. 107 I just noticed, which says that "To make intelligible the idea of the mind guiding the course of physical events without violating the law of conservation of energy, Sperry uses the analogy of a rolling wheel: physiochemical forces operating within the wheel govern a wheel's molecules individually and with respect to each other and are unaffected on that level by the whole. But the wheel itself independently determines the course that those molecules follow rolling down the hill.") If that's the case then I wouldn't need to disagree with Sperry after all; the description is not totally clear either way, though.

    Wait... You're a mathematical, idealist, Theist?

    More of a pantheist in the mode of Spinoza, but yeah, that's my preferred view.

    Also, I don't understand how you resist the terms that I introduced and call them colloquial as if that in any way diminishes their meaning

    I called them colloquial not as disparagement, but because I'm not familiar with the terms having any formal technical meanings in philosophy, and absent that I am genuinely unsure about what philosophical implications they carry for you. I didn't see the terms "based on" or "superfluous" in the book but if they are there, I probably wouldn't know what the author of the book means either, unless he defines them. This question of the precise meaning of terms as you use them could be easily cleared up if you would review the simple rules of the Game of Life (which as I mentioned to Eduardo, you can play around with using the applet at http://www.bitstorm.org/gameoflife/ which uses yellow for "live" cells and grey for "dead" ones, and whose default starting condition is that of a glider though you can change it by clicking different cells), and then tell me how your terms would apply to gliders. But if you outright refuse to do that, then like I said I take that as a sign that you don't have any interest in putting in the minimal effort required to clear up these terminological issues and achieve mutual understanding, so in that case there's no point in continuing.

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  77. Jesse, as far as I remember the game of life was a demonstration to how life or iiving structures could rise by simple rules....

    I stumble upon it a long time ago. Considering how the program seems to work, it doesn't eliminate intrinsic teleoogy.... But then again, the concept may need some clarification.

    Actually, the game of life was sort of why I thought your position was emtailing some form of monism. The cells are bricks that build any life... Within the game's world.

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  78. I would like to suggest a new theory of time, and call it the N theory of time.

    To understand the N theory of time, it is first necessary to understand the B theory of time.

    The B theory of time says that there is no such thing as an objective present, only "earlier than" and "later than".

    Now, the new N theory of time says that it is only 'now' that one can be aware of "earlier than" and/or "later than".

    The N theory of time takes no position on whether 'now' is objective or subjective; it only says that an awareness of "earlier than" and/or "later than" can be had only 'now'.

    Another way to put it is to say that the N theory of time says that, while one can think of 'earlier than" or 'later than", as well as what the relation might be between the two, one can only think of these things 'now'.

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  79. @ jesse

    What I don't understand about this reductionistic modeling that you believe in is how this predicting takes place. I specifically want to stick with real examples than analogies so I will use the biological and the physical. You claim that it would in principle be possible to predict the behavior of a biological organism using QM + elementary particles. In the case of biological organisms however, we have such things as the DNA, which is responsible for enconding information for example. How do you represent this encoding operation in your alleged simulator using only reductionistic language suitable for QM, without any reference to higher-level encoding?

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  80. JesseM: What is your definition of "mechanistic", such that a universe's being "mathematically regular" would not qualify it?

    "Reductionist" has a fairly common meaning in this context that the lowest level (particles or whatever) to which things can be broken down is the "real" level (as opposed to your non-standard meaning of "mere bookkeeping at the lowest level"). Perhaps "mechanistic" does not have as standard a usage, but in the post you're referring to, Dr. Feser explains how he's using the term: "the core idea was that the explanation of natural phenomena should make reference neither to substantial forms or immanent natures nor to intrinsic or “built in” teleology or final causes". Obviously this quite different from "exhibiting regularities", hence the confusion.

    A better term for the mathematical "adding up" you want to refer to might be "scientific reductionism", to indicate that the focus is only on what is scientifically measurable; except that that still is misleading insofar it implies the direction goes only down. It works just as well to ask whether the lower levels can be explained in terms of a higher level, so the real idea we want to capture is that there are different "levels" of reality, which can be explained in terms of each other (e.g. predicting high-level behaviour in terms of low-level rules or vice-versa) without prejudicing the question of which level(s) are real. Maybe "virtual multiplexity"?

    At any rate, "reductionist" and "mechanistic" have particular denotations around these parts having to do with ontological claims about what is (not) real, so I will avoid those terms.

    I was assuming that since they all occur in the same paragraph which starts out talking about "the potentials inherent in its nature" (intrinsic teleology), that subsequent discussions of things having "ends" (in the sentence introducing the Fifth Way) and "natures" (in the sentence introducing the Second Way) were meant to be discussing the same notions of natural forms and intrinsic teleology.

    Well, the Five Ways are more general arguments; his point there was simply that morality (in the A-T system) does not directly depend on the existence of God, but the particular concepts involved depend on more fundamental concepts from which we can deduce God's existence. For something to actualise the potentials in its nature is just a specific example of things changing, and that general concept of change is what the First Way is about (not that specific kind of change).

    He might agree that God could have created a purely mechanistic universe, but it doesn't follow that he believes such a universe could even in principle have the same observable features as our universe; he may be saying that some of these observable features (like organisms behaving in a way that suggests purposes, or our own experience of consciousness and intellectual judgments) are a priori incompatible with the hypothesis that our universe is constructed in a mechanistic way, according to the A-T philosophy.

    [cont…]

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  81. [continued…]

    Again it's the difference between "mechanistic" as "dumb particles only" vs "mathematically consistent levels". Feser isn't simply making unsubstantiated assertions — although he is assuming some pretty uncontroversial premises such as "multiple human beings exist" or "there is such a thing as morality" — and drawing out the conclusions. It is possible (as I am confident Dr. Feser would agree) that God could have created a fully Aristotelian universe that consisted only of "dumb particles". But of course, given (again, as pretty much everyone accepts) that people and morality, etc. are part of the real world, he is arguing that the actual world cannot be "particles only", i.e. what does contradict A-T is not a particle-universe per se, but trying to have a particle universe and human beings and morality all at once. As soon as the world contains natural substances like human beings, it cannot BE nothing but electrons and quarks. But that says nothing about whether the physically measurable attributes of human beings can be mathematically modelled in terms of electrons and quarks or not.

    You say "for sure" as if we could at least have informed speculations, but short of divine revelation about which forms God picked as natural and which He didn't, I don't see how this would work.

    And yet most of us have no hesitation in proclaiming "crazy" views which seriously attempt to claim that, say, other human beings are all hallucinations. More than that, the few people who would claim to take such a view seriously (and who aren't in mental institutions) are often suspected of saying something that they don't really believe themselves. In other words, I think there is a reasonable middle ground between "God had to specially reveal it" and "no clue whether people or animals even really exist". As a purely hypothetical question in epistemology, sure, it's fair to ask, but one of the selling points of A-T is that it easily accommodates the ordinary things we can't help believing anyway, as opposed to views that say things like "there are really only atoms in the void, we just arbitrarily call some particle-clouds 'people' as a sort of meaningless shorthand".

    (except perhaps if one takes first-person conscious experience as evidence that oneself is a natural form, in which case one might generalize and say that other things which externally appear like oneself are too, but I don't see how this reasoning could be extended to inanimate "forms" like water…

    But this is something human beings naturally do to begin with: you reason from yourself to human beings in general; from human beings to animals in general; from animals to living things in general; from living things to substances in general…. And since it's inconsistent to deny your own abilities to experience and reason, you have to have a more or less A-T universe. Now if that minimal system, the one that follows from what we can prove, also accounts for things we cannot prove so rigourously, then all the better.


    also, if Dr. Feser would agree that the inference of biological organisms as natural forms depends critically on first-person experience in this way, it's odd that he didn't make the slightest mention of an argument from first-person experience in that long post).

    Eh, only if he was trying to answer your questions here. Since he was coming at things from a different angle, he's obviously not going to address everything. Especially since posts like that tend to be directed at an audience that already has at least a general grasp of what A-T is about. I'd highly recommend his book Aquinas as an excellent introduction, and of course all the past entries on this site (which tend to jump around since the site is not structured like a book, but the more you read, the more spots will be filled in, naturally).

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  82. Anonymous: What I don't understand about this reductionistic modeling that you believe in is how this predicting takes place. […] How do you represent this encoding operation [of DNA] in your alleged simulator using only reductionistic language suitable for QM, without any reference to higher-level encoding?

    I don't think Jesse does account for that — or need to, given his specifically limited idea of "reduction", which is really not reductionist but rather "mathematical rules at different levels". If the bottom level of particles is completely mathematically consistent and closed, then you could in principle calculate "everything" in terms of particles. That would be like explaining "everything" about a page of text in terms of ink on paper: for example, if I knew all the keys you pressed on the typewriter, then I can predict exactly what will appear on the paper.

    Of course, I put "everything" in quotation marks because although my low-level prediction covers everything in terms of accounting for each and every symbol that gets inked, I have no explanation at all for the meaning of the sentence — I have accounted for every part (every symbol that gets typed onto the page) but I have not account for every aspect of every part. Similarly, Jesse's modelling accounts for every part, but only in a limited way, which is OK, because he deliberately defined it that way. (Now, starting with a limited definition means we can get only limited results, which is why this isn't very interesting from an A-T perspective: that high-level substances are mathematically consistent with the operations of their parts is interesting, and useful for science, but because the question has been specifically restricted to a particular slice of reality, it's not much help in concluding anything about the rest of reality.)

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  83. JesseM: If you don't think you're doing that, please explain what you mean by "I'm still not going to have your experiences" in purely material, third-person terms…

    Well, that's what is begging the question — the claim is that that's impossible, and therefore a purely material third-person explanation is wrong (or at least incomplete). Of course, it depends what you mean by "material". Specifically, it cannot simply be a matter of one pile of particles having "access to information" that another pile doesn't because no one particle "has" the experience; the subject has to be some thing that is not a particle — or a pile of particles, unless that "pile" consists of parts (real or virtual) of an actual, single substance. But that's just the Aristotelian position: that the subject of the experience is a single real thing, i.e. it has a substantial form.

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  84. Anonymous:
    What I don't understand about this reductionistic modeling that you believe in is how this predicting takes place. I specifically want to stick with real examples than analogies so I will use the biological and the physical. You claim that it would in principle be possible to predict the behavior of a biological organism using QM + elementary particles. In the case of biological organisms however, we have such things as the DNA, which is responsible for enconding information for example. How do you represent this encoding operation in your alleged simulator using only reductionistic language suitable for QM, without any reference to higher-level encoding?

    I don't really understand what you're asking. Look, I understand that you personally don't find it plausible that various high-level entities and processes seen in nature would arise in a hypothetical detailed simulation of all the particles present in those entities/processes, if the simulation was programmed only with the fundamental laws of physics governing the particles. But are you suggesting above that there's some special argument (not just an intuition) that this doesn't make sense in the case of DNA, perhaps an argument involving the encoding of information, whereas in the case of other objects that aren't normally said to "encode information" (volcanoes, say), you may find it intuitively implausible that they'd arise in such a simulation but you don't have as clear of an argument about why they couldn't? If you do have such an argument, can you lay it out in more detail?

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  85. (reply to Anonymous continued):
    When a scientist talks about DNA encoding information they don't mean to talk about mind-dependent concepts like the "meaning" of a DNA sequence, nor do they mean to suggest any special new laws of nature come into play when dealing with DNA. They just mean that there are some reliable relationships (and causal influences) between physical facts about DNA sequences and physical facts about other aspects of organisms, like the proteins produced by cells (and the molecular machines that the proteins assemble themselves into) and the bodily features seen in multicellular organisms. Do you think there is any special argument, beyond just intuitions, for thinking a hypothetical simulation of the kind I describe wouldn't reproduce the same relationships between gene sequences and proteins, or between gene sequences and body features? The molecular interactions by which particular sequences of DNA give rise to particular proteins are understood in great detail, look up "protein synthesis" on the internet for plenty of information. Given that simulations using only quantum laws can reproduce the behavior of interacting molecules in other situations, like the water simulation I linked to before at http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2007/mar/water030207.html , do you have any special argument for thinking that molecular-level biological interactions, like the ones shown in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOBwqwxgJqc , wouldn't be reproduced in a simulation whose initial conditions included all the relevant molecules, and which was only programmed with basic quantum laws? If you can accept that such a simulation might reproduce the relationship between DNA sequences and proteins, but have trouble with how DNA could have any control over large-scale features of multicellular organisms, the mainstream answer is basically that the growth and behavior of cells in different parts of any embryo is thought to be controlled by gradients of proteins produced by cells, with the proteins in each cells' immediate region determining which of its own DNA sequences are switched "on" or "off" (and thus which protein the cell itself produces). It's obviously a very complicated process but various aspects, particularly the early stages, are reasonably well-understood, if you want to know about it check out a book like "The Art of Genes: How Organisms Make Themselves" by Enrico Coen. Again I don't want to say I have any proof that the development of embryos can be explained in this sort of reductionist way, and I'm not trying to convert you, just wondering if you have any special argument for why you think it couldn't possibly work, or if it's just a matter of you finding it intuitively too implausible to believe.

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  86. Mr. Green:
    JesseM: What is your definition of "mechanistic", such that a universe's being "mathematically regular" would not qualify it?

    "Reductionist" has a fairly common meaning in this context that the lowest level (particles or whatever) to which things can be broken down is the "real" level (as opposed to your non-standard meaning of "mere bookkeeping at the lowest level").

    As I said to Anonymous, there's nothing non-standard about my usage, it's just my attempt to summarize the common meaning of "reductionism" in a scientific context (rather than an ontological one)--again see the comments on reductionism by physicist Sean Carroll in the post at http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/11/03/physicalist-anti-reductionism/ To call this "mere bookkeeping" is odd--would you say that all predictions in the natural sciences are "mere bookkeeping"? No scientific theories really try to address ontological questions about which level of description is the "really real" one.

    Perhaps "mechanistic" does not have as standard a usage, but in the post you're referring to, Dr. Feser explains how he's using the term: "the core idea was that the explanation of natural phenomena should make reference neither to substantial forms or immanent natures nor to intrinsic or “built in” teleology or final causes". Obviously this quite different from "exhibiting regularities", hence the confusion.

    If "explanation of natural phenomena" refers specifically to scientific explanations rather than metaphysical ones, then it seems to me that a universe explained in the "reductionist" terms I described would also qualify as "mechanistic". Are you interpreting "explanation" to mean a metaphysical explanation? It's certainly possible Dr. Feser meant it that way, but I don't think it's really clear one way or another.

    A better term for the mathematical "adding up" you want to refer to might be "scientific reductionism", to indicate that the focus is only on what is scientifically measurable;

    Sure, as I said many times, I'm defining reductionism in a non-ontological way in terms of predictions, so I'd be happy with the term "scientific reductionism".

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  87. (reply to Mr. Green continued)
    except that that still is misleading insofar it implies the direction goes only down. It works just as well to ask whether the lower levels can be explained in terms of a higher level

    I don't see how that could make sense, since the detailed configuration of the lower level always contains more information than configuration of higher level entities--for example, if you specify only the configuration of all the cells in the body of an organism, that's obviously less information than specifying every fundamental particle in the body of an organism. How could knowing only the configuration of higher-level entities allow you to predict in detail the configuration and behavior of all the smaller-level entities?

    At any rate, "reductionist" and "mechanistic" have particular denotations around these parts having to do with ontological claims about what is (not) real, so I will avoid those terms.

    Well, I can't really see how to have this discussion without having a simple term for the idea I discussed where all physical behavior can in principle be predicted from knowledge of fundamental particles and their lives--if you don't want to use the term "reductionism" for that idea, even "scientific reductionism", can you suggest an alternate term for me to use?

    I was assuming that since they all occur in the same paragraph which starts out talking about "the potentials inherent in its nature" (intrinsic teleology), that subsequent discussions of things having "ends" (in the sentence introducing the Fifth Way) and "natures" (in the sentence introducing the Second Way) were meant to be discussing the same notions of natural forms and intrinsic teleology.

    Well, the Five Ways are more general arguments; his point there was simply that morality (in the A-T system) does not directly depend on the existence of God, but the particular concepts involved depend on more fundamental concepts from which we can deduce God's existence. For something to actualise the potentials in its nature is just a specific example of things changing, and that general concept of change is what the First Way is about (not that specific kind of change).

    But it's not clear to me that all these concepts would even be applicable in a universe that behaved in the "reductionist" sense I outlined. For example, how could one talk about "potentials" in an entity's "nature" if that entity behaved in a completely deterministic way, so that its initial configuration guarantees what its future behavior will be? If "potentials" is understood to indicate multiple possible behaviors, then talking about potentials in any entity following mathematical rules would make no more sense than talking about 2 and 3 having other "potential" sums besides 5.

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  88. (reply to Mr. Green continued)
    Again it's the difference between "mechanistic" as "dumb particles only" vs "mathematically consistent levels". Feser isn't simply making unsubstantiated assertions — although he is assuming some pretty uncontroversial premises such as "multiple human beings exist" or "there is such a thing as morality" — and drawing out the conclusions. It is possible (as I am confident Dr. Feser would agree) that God could have created a fully Aristotelian universe that consisted only of "dumb particles". But of course, given (again, as pretty much everyone accepts) that people and morality, etc. are part of the real world, he is arguing that the actual world cannot be "particles only", i.e. what does contradict A-T is not a particle-universe per se, but trying to have a particle universe and human beings and morality all at once. As soon as the world contains natural substances like human beings, it cannot BE nothing but electrons and quarks. But that says nothing about whether the physically measurable attributes of human beings can be mathematically modelled in terms of electrons and quarks or not.

    But I don't understand how you can even be confident that our universe does contain high-level natural substances like human beings, rather than the only ontological reality being configurations of "dumb particles", if you grant that God has the power to create both types of universe, and that predictions about how the particles would behave might be identical in both (so both would feature the configurations we call human beings behaving the same way, making the same arguments about what exists in their reality, even if in one of the two universes the configurations would really be accidental forms rather than natural forms, on the ontological level).

    Imagining two otherwise-identical universes like this is very similar to Chalmer's argument about the ontological reality of consciousness distinct from physical reality, which he tries to show with the thought-experiment of two possible worlds that are identical in all physical respects, but in one certain physical patterns of brain activity are linked (somehow) to conscious experiences, whereas in the other all the organisms are "zombies" who behave exactly like us but lack any first-person conscious experience. Similarly I'm imagining two universes where the configurations of particles behave in exactly the same way, but in one God makes it so the particles are the only ontological reality, while in the second God makes it so that certain configurations of particles are themselves natural substances. The second case would be like the hypothetical I mentioned earlier:

    For example, one might say that God could create a universe that behaved exactly like the Game of Life, but there could still be intrinsic teleology in this universe if God made gliders be "natural forms" whose diagonal motions and cyclic transformations were part of their intrinsic teleology, in spite of the fact that these behaviors could be perfectly well predicted using only the knowledge of the states of the cells making them up and the mathematical rules that individual cells are always observed to conform to.

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  89. (reply to Mr. Green continued)
    So the question is, what possible way could beings in either universe have to know which type they were living in, given that their physical behavior (including "behavior" in their brain) is identical in both? Perhaps you'd argue that the "just dumb particles" universe would be a zombie-universe just like in Chalmers' thought experiment, so our own experience of consciousness proves we don't live in such a universe. But I don't see why there should be any necessary link between substantial physical forms and consciousness. For example, in my thought-experiment above, the idea that God made gliders be "natural forms" didn't require these forms to have any consciousness. Likewise, couldn't God have the ability to create a universe that on the physical level had no natural substances above the level of particles (or cells in the Game of Life), but where He created "psychophysical laws" of the type Chalmers imagines, so that certain configurations of these particles would naturally give rise to conscious experiences? The conscious experiences and the perceivers who have them could then be immaterial natural substances that were something other than dumb particles, but it could still be true that the only physical natural substances would be dumb particles, so the categories that conscious beings use to divide up physical reality ("trees", "human bodies", etc.) would have no real ontological reality.

    Do you think this is a metaphysical possibility, something it would be possible for God to do? If so, consider a thought-experiment where God creates two universes that are identical in terms of the fundamental particles and how their configurations change with time, and also (unlike in Chalmers' thought-experiment) identical on the level conscious experience (how many conscious beings exist, what their experiences and thoughts are like from their own perspective), but different on the level of whether there are any physical "natural substances" above the level of particles. Wouldn't you agree that beings in either universe would have absolutely no basis for reaching any conclusion about which type of universe they were living in, since both their physical behavior and their thoughts and perceptions would be identical in each? If so, what possible basis can there be, other than divine revelation, for coming to any conclusion about which type our own universe might be? For that matter, if we accept that both are logically possible and that our experiences or observations would be no different either way, how do we know there's even a meaningful metaphysical difference between the two? Couldn't we just have gotten ourselves tangled in mental knots, with the intuition that it's meaningful to talk about "natural forms" originally being rooted in physical observations or observations of how are mind works, but then mistakenly holding on to the intuition in a thought-experiment where it wouldn't make sense to root it in either of these? If this were true, treating "natural forms" as a fundamental part of our ontology might be an example of what Alfred North Whitehead called a "fallacy of misplaced concreteness".

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  90. (reply to Mr. Green continued)
    And yet most of us have no hesitation in proclaiming "crazy" views which seriously attempt to claim that, say, other human beings are all hallucinations. More than that, the few people who would claim to take such a view seriously (and who aren't in mental institutions) are often suspected of saying something that they don't really believe themselves. In other words, I think there is a reasonable middle ground between "God had to specially reveal it" and "no clue whether people or animals even really exist". As a purely hypothetical question in epistemology, sure, it's fair to ask, but one of the selling points of A-T is that it easily accommodates the ordinary things we can't help believing anyway, as opposed to views that say things like "there are really only atoms in the void, we just arbitrarily call some particle-clouds 'people' as a sort of meaningless shorthand".

    Well, the view I described above says that people do exist as unified entities on the mental level, and probably also that there is a very specific collection of physical events linked (by "psychophysical laws") to each conscious experience, but it's more of an arbitrary matter to group particles or events into collections like a "human body" (atoms are constantly coming into my body and leaving it, do you think on the level of ontology there's some precise position and time where a given atom begins or ceases to be part of the natural substance of a "human body"?) It's true we can't help seeing the world divided into objects, but if you're making the argument based on psychological naturalness, it seems to me there are many cases where we also can't help seeing groupings that the A-T philosophy would dismiss as mere "accidental forms" or "heaps", like a neat pile of rocks, or a human-made machine like a car.

    also, if Dr. Feser would agree that the inference of biological organisms as natural forms depends critically on first-person experience in this way, it's odd that he didn't make the slightest mention of an argument from first-person experience in that long post).

    Eh, only if he was trying to answer your questions here. Since he was coming at things from a different angle, he's obviously not going to address everything. Especially since posts like that tend to be directed at an audience that already has at least a general grasp of what A-T is about. I'd highly recommend his book Aquinas as an excellent introduction, and of course all the past entries on this site (which tend to jump around since the site is not structured like a book, but the more you read, the more spots will be filled in, naturally).

    Well, do you know of any place in either his book Aquinas or his posts where he has suggested that our "inference of biological organisms as natural forms depends critically on first-person experience"? If so, could you direct me to such an argument? And if not, it might be that you are projecting your own metaphysical arguments onto him.

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  91. @jesse

    Despite your lengthy posts you still have not addressed my question. You're vague and just when I thought I was touching upon the fundamental error of your claims you seem to have simply avoided it.

    This is not about intuition but rather about whether what you're saying is actually correct, which so far you have not provided adequate justification for.

    You just give blanket generalizations about how in theory something can be done based on some limited modeling done on something quite rudimentary.


    So here it is one more time:

    What I don't understand about this reductionistic modeling that you believe in is how this predicting takes place. I specifically want to stick with real examples than analogies so I will use the biological and the physical. You claim that it would in principle be possible to predict the behavior of a biological organism using QM + elementary particles. In the case of biological organisms however, we have such things as the DNA, which is responsible for enconding information for example. How do you represent this encoding operation in your alleged simulator using only reductionistic language suitable for QM, without any reference to higher-level encoding?

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  92. To put it simply, in your own description of DNA, proteins and cells, you use concepts, interactions and characteristics that have nothing to do with quantum theory. Quantum theory alone simply does not address such biological activities. That's the fatal flaw of your argument.

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  93. Anonymous:
    "Despite your lengthy posts you still have not addressed my question. You're vague and just when I thought I was touching upon the fundamental error of your claims you seem to have simply avoided it."

    What "fundamental error" would that be? As I said, in my response, I couldn't see that there was any actual argument in your post, so you'll have to spell it out for me.

    "This is not about intuition but rather about whether what you're saying is actually correct, which so far you have not provided adequate justification for."

    As I made very clear, I do not claim that there is any definitive evidence that the physical reductionist view is correct, just that I find it very plausible and that the trend in science has been to keep expanding our ability to explain different systems in reductionist ways. So if you have an argument which you think shows clearly that the physical reductionist view is incorrect (without needing to wait for further data from experiments/simulations), then the burden of proof is on you to lay out that argument in detail, a vague reference to DNA "encoding information" isn't enough.

    "To put it simply, in your own description of DNA, proteins and cells, you use concepts, interactions and characteristics that have nothing to do with quantum theory. Quantum theory alone simply does not address such biological activities. That's the fatal flaw of your argument."

    So what? "Physical reductionism" as I defined it said nothing about verbal descriptions used by humans. I mentioned the example of the simulation of water molecules at http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2007/mar/water030207.html where the computer wasn't programmed with anything above the basic quantum laws that govern individual atoms (or maybe even individual electrons, the article isn't completely clear), but the simulation accurately reproduced the higher-level behavior of water molecules and how multiple water molecules interact, and the verbal description of the simulation naturally refers to higher-level concepts and entities like molecules. Again, "physical reductionism" as I defined it is solely a matter of being able to predict the future motion of particles (and thus any composite system that can be defined as an arrangement of these particles, like a molecule) based on their initial state and the fundamental laws governing their behavior.

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  94. No, jesse the burden of proof is on you. It’s you that is making the incredible claims here not me. You are the one that needs to provide adequate justification, which you haven’t. All I have done is show that you have fallen short.

    The notion that science has been explaining things in reductionist ways is for the most part a myth. Having a limited descriptive paradigm is not an explanation. Regardless, this type of “argument” is a logical fallacy of appealing to the future. To put it in a Popperian style, this is just another promissory –ism, namely promissory reductionism.

    Your water molecule example, which you seem to have been repeating over and over doesn’t provide me with much at all. Just some blanket proclamations by a couple of scientists. I find it rather suspect (the actual modeling nd their interpretation of the model) but even if I didn’t (I have no problem giving you and them the benefit of the doubt), it’s still like I mentioned before a simplistic analogy that just cannot make the case for reductionism. In fact, I am not in the least surprised if they managed to predict certain behaviors although I believe a lot of the high-level structures are probably embedded in the model in some way or another.

    Your appeal to “verbal descriptions” is either a red herring or simply an act of avoidance. Real entities and interactions operating on their own laws to put it in Sperry’s words are not verbal descriptions and I was very clear with what I meant. This is starting to feel very much like a shell game here and I think we’re not getting anywhere nor do I think we will if we continue the discussion.

    I do however agree with you on this point:

    I do not claim that there is any definitive evidence that the physical reductionist view is correct

    I would take it one step further and say that there hardly is any evidence at all.


    For the sake of brevity and to save both our times, let’s go back to your original claim and simply focus on that. Namely that you can model human behavior based on quantum laws and particles. If you show me that you can do it I will take your reductionism seriously, if not, then I will continue to think that’s an intellectually bankrupt position.

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  95. *Better yet: laws and dynamics in reference to real entities and real activities. Your response of calling them mere verbal description is irrelevant really.

    PS. My point about the DNA encoding issue, is just to indicate the problems with your argument. You simply cannot provide us with an adequate account, which if anything signifies the success of my response.

    Another problem for your claims would be its reliance on physical determinism, an idea that I have seen nothing in support of and something you'd probably need to prove as well. But that's a whole different matter altogether.

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  96. Anonymous:
    No, jesse the burden of proof is on you.

    I didn't actually say that the burden of proof was on you to prove that physical reductionism is false. Rather I made an if-then statement: if you claim to have an actual argument that shows why we should view it as very likely or certainly false, then you should present that argument (my exact words were "So if you have an argument which you think shows clearly that the physical reductionist view is incorrect (without needing to wait for further data from experiments/simulations), then the burden of proof is on you to lay out that argument in detail"). "How do you represent this encoding operation in your alleged simulator" is not an argument, it's just a (rhetorical?) question, and I explained why I think there is nothing a priori problematic about the idea that the various physical effects of DNA sequences (proteins, bodily features of multicellular organisms) would emerge naturally in such a simulation. On the other hand, if you do not claim to have a reasoned argument but are just saying that it seems intuitively very implausible that the effects of DNA on proteins/bodies could emerge in a simulation based on nothing but quantum laws, then my intuitions are different but I won't try to persuade you that you are wrong.

    An argument cannot involve just pointing to some fact and claiming it is incompatible with the hypothesis of physical reductionism, it has to involve a series of steps that establishes this. Arguments are typically stated rather informally but ultimately any valid argument should be expressible in syllogistic form where one starts with one or more premises (like the fact that DNA encodes information), then shows how, using logic alone, one can derive a conclusion (like the conclusion that physical reductionism is false) from them. Then if the argument is valid, no one can question that the conclusion follows from the premises, and the debate can turn to which specific premise(s) the two people disagree on. If you claim to have an argument about DNA's incompatibility with physical reductionsim rather than just an intuition, I won't necessarily ask you to write out your argument in such a formal way (though it would be helpful!) but you should at least make a stab at explaining why you think DNA's "encoding information" is incompatible with physical reductionism, hopefully making the argument clear enough that an intelligent person could infer how it could be translated into syllogistic form if they wanted to take the time to do so.

    It’s you that is making the incredible claims here not me. You are the one that needs to provide adequate justification, which you haven’t.

    But as I explained to you already, my purpose on this thread was never to convince you or anyone else that physical reductionism is actually true--I just asked people to consider it as a hypothetical possibility, and also mentioned in passing that I would rate it very likely (as do most scientists), and gave a quick outline of my reasons (especially when people raised doubts about its plausibility), but it's fine with me if no one here agrees with the second part.

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  97. (reply to Anonymous continued):
    Suppose a theist went to a philosophical discussion forum populated mostly by non-theists, and asked a question about whether they thought certain beliefs of theirs would still make sense if hypothetically God existed, and also explained that they themselves thought God's existence was rationally likely, but didn't claim to be able to prove it and wasn't out to convince anyone there to change their views on the matter. Then suppose an atheist poster responded by ignoring the hypothetical and continually demanding proof of God from the theist, also ignoring the theist's protests that he wasn't really trying to argue that others should change their minds about the matter. What would you think of the behavior of this atheist? Is your attitude towards my hypothetical question any different?

    The notion that science has been explaining things in reductionist ways is for the most part a myth. Having a limited descriptive paradigm is not an explanation. Regardless, this type of “argument” is a logical fallacy of appealing to the future. To put it in a Popperian style, this is just another promissory –ism, namely promissory reductionism.

    If you think "a limited descriptive paradigm is not an explanation", then I think you may be defining "explanation" in such a way that no model in science could ever count as an explanation, since models are just about showing how certain observable features of nature are derivable as consequences of some more basic laws--think of the Newtonian "explanation" for why planets have elliptical orbits for example, it derives this fact from the Newtonian equation for gravity but doesn't attempt to "explain" this equation itself. Even if it were possible to simulate an entire solar system using nothing but basic quantum laws, and show that this simulation reproduced all the types of features we see in real geology/biology/etc., obviously this would not "explain" why nature follows those basic quantum laws! And yet, this would be about the best evidence conceivable that the real world does obey the assumptions of physical reductionism. So, when I made the point that the continual success of science in "explaining" things in reductionist ways is a form of (non-definitive) evidence in favor of physical reductionism, naturally I meant "explaining" in the usual scientific sense of showing how a model that reproduces some high-level behavior using some more simpler parts whose behavior and interactions follow some lower-level rules (like a model which shows how cells self- organize themselves in an embryo using molecular signals, with the molecular signals each cell sends out being determined by the signals it receives from other cells, which activate or deactivate various genes responsible for creating the proteins involved in these signals).

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  98. (reply to Anonymous continued):
    Regardless, this type of “argument” is a logical fallacy of appealing to the future. To put it in a Popperian style, this is just another promissory –ism, namely promissory reductionism.

    Any hypothesis that nature has certain universal features is not going to be able to demonstrate that this is true in every possible case, if one wants to provide evidence that the hypothesis is plausible (not absolute proof that it is definitely true) all one can do is continually accumulate a broadening number of examples that fit with the hypothesis. For example, what about the notion that energy is conserved locally in every small chunk of space? Every system we've measured seems to obey it, but we can't be sure there isn't some undiscovered pocket of space in a place scientists haven't checked (deep in the ocean, or on a planet in another galaxy, say) where things jump around in a way that continually violates conservation of energy. Same with the hypothesis that all the structured features we see in organisms that seem "designed" to help them get along in life were shaped entirely by natural selection operating on random hereditary variations in a population. Scientists can't possibly show that this is definitively the case for every such structured feature, but they can continually find more examples of phylogenetic or fossil evidence that supports the idea that a given structure arose through a series of smaller individually-useful steps, as well as more examples of differential survival in present-day populations which lead to small "improvements" in a given feature. And for both conservation of energy and Darwinian evolution, it should also be significant for a Popperian that scientists continually fail to find examples which falsify the idea that the hypothesis applies universally, like failing to find an example of a pocket of space where conservation of energy is continually violated, or failing to find fossils in strata that would completely contradict the sequence of when various groups are thought to have arisen (by smallish modifications) from earlier groups. I don't claim that scientists would see the evidence for the universality of physical reductionism as being as strong as the evidence for the universality of conservation of energy or the universality of Darwinian evolution, but it's similar in the sense that evidence for it consists of a large but very non-comprehensive series of examples, and also the continual failure to find falsifying examples that clearly contradict the predictions of the theory.

    Also, I don't think Popper would have approved of the idea of taking a theory's failure to explain everything (yet) as a "falsification" of the theory--for example, if a system is just too complicated for us to be able to model computationally to see if its behavior lines up with our hypothesis about the underlying rules, that isn't really a falsification since we don't know one way or another whether it would line up if we had more computational power. Likewise, if we don't have much phylogenetic or fossil information on a feature and can't say much about how it evolved, that isn't really a falsification since we don't know whether better information would show it emerging in a series of steps or all at once in a clearly non-Darwinian way. Falsification happens when we do have enough information to say what the predictions of the theory are, and to show that what actually happened in reality strongly contradicts them (for example, in classical physics there was the so-called "ultraviolet catastrophe" where the laws of electromagnetism and thermodynamics appeared to clearly predict that a heated body would emit thermal radiation with infinite power, an erroneous prediction that is avoided in quantum mechanics).

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  99. (reply to Anonymous continued):
    Your water molecule example, which you seem to have been repeating over and over doesn’t provide me with much at all. Just some blanket proclamations by a couple of scientists.

    OK, so now you're offering a conspiracy theory where the scientists are just lying about using only quantum laws? This is just one example, there is a whole field called "ab initio quantum chemistry" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_initio_quantum_chemistry_methods ) where the idea is to derive the chemical behavior of different molecules using nothing but the basic quantum laws governing the nuclei and electrons they are composed of. So if you think it's fundamentally impossible to derive chemical behavior using only basic quantum laws, you'd have to imagine a massive conspiracy among many scientists with no whistleblowers, similar to young-earth creationists who think scientists are simply lying about particular fossils consistently being found in geological strata which have the appropriate age according to radiometric methods, or global warming deniers who imagine climate scientists everywhere are collaborating to create false evidence about the degree of warming or its correlation with human activities.

    I find it rather suspect (the actual modeling nd their interpretation of the model) but even if I didn’t (I have no problem giving you and them the benefit of the doubt), it’s still like I mentioned before a simplistic analogy that just cannot make the case for reductionism. In fact, I am not in the least surprised if they managed to predict certain behaviors although I believe a lot of the high-level structures are probably embedded in the model in some way or another.

    If you give them "the benefit of the doubt" then you assume for the sake of the argument that there simulation is programmed only with basic quantum laws as its dynamical rules. Are you saying that the behavior of water molecules is "embedded" in the basic textbook equations of quantum physics themselves? If so, you seem to be using "embedded" in a way that is perfectly compatible with physical reductionism (like saying that in the Game of Life program, which I have asked you many times to comment on, the higher-level behavior of gliders is "embedded" in the basic rules that determine whether a given cell is black or white on each successive turn).

    Your appeal to “verbal descriptions” is either a red herring or simply an act of avoidance. Real entities and interactions operating on their own laws to put it in Sperry’s words are not verbal descriptions

    I should have said "verbal/mathematical descriptions", but the point is the same either way. And if by "own laws" you mean to explicitly rule out the idea that high-level laws could be predicted from lower ones, like chemical laws in ab initio quantum chemistry or the laws of glider evolution in the Game of Life, then you are just begging the question if you say there are any entities which obey their "own laws" in this sense. On the other hand, if "own laws" is just an empirical observation that certain high-level entities show behavior that is lawlike (perhaps sufficiently so to be described mathematically), then I don't see how this observation provides evidence for or against physical reductionism, since we can program simulations where the simulation itself runs on some basic laws but these produce higher-level structures with regular behavior, like simulated molecules in ab initio quantum chemistry, or gliders in the Game of Life. That was my point, that I see a priori incompatibility between physical reductionism and the fact that we can describe or mathematically model higher-level entities following higher-level rules, since we can do the same thing in computer simulations that we know are following reductionist rules.

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  100. (reply to Anonymous continued):
    For the sake of brevity and to save both our times, let’s go back to your original claim and simply focus on that. Namely that you can model human behavior based on quantum laws and particles. If you show me that you can do it I will take your reductionism seriously, if not, then I will continue to think that’s an intellectually bankrupt position.

    Again I did not offer that as a "claim" I was trying to convince anyone of, just as a definition of what I meant by physical reductionism, which I asked people to consider hypothetically to see if it was compatible with A-T assumptions. And I was also clear that the definition was saying that if the universe works in a way consistent with physical reductionism, that means the rules that nature follows are such that in principle such a model would be possible, for a hypothetical observer with sufficiently omniscient knowledge of the initial state of all the microscopic particles in a human, of the basic laws of nature that apply to these individual particles, and with sufficiently vast computing power to see how the basic laws would cause the initial state to evolve over time. You are arguing in a "lawyerly" rhetorical style where if I can't provide absolute proof that this is how the real laws of nature work, the hypothesis should be ruled out completely, rather than taking a more scientific attitude of considering whether the weight of the imperfect evidence we have so far is in line with the hypothesis. If you think the current evidence is just too weak to tell us much about the answer one way or another, and you have strong intuitions that the hypothesis is likely wrong, that's fine with me. But if you claim there is evidence that strongly falsifies the hypothesis, like the fact that DNA "encodes information", then as I said the burden is on you to provide an argument that shows why this observation is inconsistent with what the hypothesis should predict (i.e. consider a hypothetical universe where physical reductionism was true, and show why we couldn't possibly expect to see things like DNA molecules that encode information in that universe). If you don't have such a reasoned argument (one sufficiently clear that it could be converted into syllogistic form by anyone who wanted to take the time), then this is just an expression of your personal intuitions.

    Another problem for your claims would be its reliance on physical determinism, an idea that I have seen nothing in support of and something you'd probably need to prove as well. But that's a whole different matter altogether.

    No, I am not assuming determinism, just that the most accurate possible predictions (possibly statistical) could be made by someone with a complete knowledge of the original physical state and the fundamental laws governing the individual parts of the system. I covered this towards the beginning of the thread, in a response to TheOFloinn on Sep. 5, at 1:28 pm (at least as the times display when I look at the thread...I'm in the eastern time zone of the U.S.)

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  101. 1. The 'water molecule' professor is quoted as follows in a 2010 National Science Foundation article, The Water Dance: "We can model water very accurately and we did systems as large as 40 atoms fairly accurately," [Krzysztof] Szalewicz said. "However, that is about the limit at the present time."

    According to WolframAlpha, there are 5,010,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms in 1 metric drop of water.

    2. I don't play the lottery, but if I did, then in principle it would be possible for me to have the winning numbers for 13 consecutive drawings. I'm not saying it is likely I would win 13 times in a row, just that, in principle, it is possible that I might.

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  102. jesse,

    1. I know quite well how formal deductive arguments are constructed. No one needs to see you posturing, pretending to explain to me - or anyone else for that matter - how that is to be done. That’s just unnecessary pompousness. My penetrating question, which you are incapable of answering, points to the simple fact that the operations of various systems/entities – the DNA in this particular case – are not explicable in mere QM. Maybe you’re so fixated on your worldview that you can’t see it? I don’t know. To me, that’s all that is required to show untenability of your claims (which you have neither proved not argued for successfully). I am not claiming anything here just pointing to the problem.

    2. I am not concerned about you changing my mind. I think reductionism is intellectually bankrupt and I say that as someone who once accepted that specific doctrine in the past (but no longer do). I am simply requesting you to provide some substantive justification. Whether A-T would be compatible with your definition of “reductionism” has already been addressed by others and confirmed by myself and I don’t have anything more to add to that.

    3. no model in science could ever count as an explanation

    That is correct. Anyone who understand science knows that an explanation will depend on pre-scientific and a priori principles, beliefs, mataphysics, paradigms etc. Science only offers limited descriptions. In fact, science may provide different descriptions to the same thing depending on the differing assumptions made by each scientific paradigm.

    a model which shows how cells self- organize themselves in an embryo using molecular signals, with the molecular signals each cell sends out being determined by the signals it receives from other cells, which activate or deactivate various genes responsible for creating the proteins involved in these signals)

    In other words, Formal and Final causes.

    4. My comment about your logical fallacy is not a skeptical argument against induction. I think you’re confused. Conservation of energy has nothing to do with reductionism and trying to elevate reductionism (an essentially incoherent belief about the nature of reality) with an empirically attested phenomenon is simply ridiculous. I’m sorry but it’s you that is relying on rhetoric here not I. Your claim is a logical fallacy regardless of how you try to spin it. Promissory claims are fallacious and yours is just that. Also, reductionism is not a scientific theory so it’s rather weird that you would even imply that Popper would be interested in subjecting it to ‘falsification’.

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  103. 5. I don’t know how you got to “conspiracy theory” from what I said. I think this is just another one of your red herrings. Scientists describing their idea/experiment in an article, albeit in rather vague ways, is what is most likely happening here. Their modeling would require high-level structures to be embedded even as mere possibilities either explicitly or implicitly. An easy way to demonstrate this is a thought experiment: (1) a model that allows elementary particles to operate at the lowest level (e.g. motion) only and another model that (2) allows elementary particles to operate and interact but with an additional function, namely that of forming chemical elements. I’m sorry but taking what I am saying twisting it around and then comparing it to some YEC is sheer nonsense on your part and downright dishonest.


    6. Unfortunately for you it’s not I that is begging the question but you along with every other reductionist out there. I see no reason to reject what Sperry is saying and everything around us is attesting to the fact that reality simply does not work like that. Nowhere is it more clear that you’re begging the question that here:

    since we can program simulations where the simulation itself runs on some basic laws but these produce higher-level structures with regular behavior

    Like I said before. You’re caught into your worldview and you think that simply by stating unfounded claims such as these you have actually proved what you believe.

    Also, just because something can be modeled in a computer simulator (and what we’ve modeled is extremely limited so far) that does not mean reductionism holds. That’s just absurd.

    The bottom line is that you simply cannot provide an adequate response to either the human behavior objection (which annihilates reductionism in it and of itself).
    nor the simple and much easier objection of the DNA operation. In the former objection (human behavior), one can see how reductionism becomes even more impossible if we introduce the high-level dynamics of language, economics, ethics, psychology, sociology etc, which lie at the core of most of human behavior. You can of course claim that somehow the Schrodinger equation and the Uncertainty Principle in principle (lol) “explain” economics but I don’t think such statements are worthy of serious consideration.


    The simplistic analogies you’ve provided in the form of the game of life and water molecules simply don’t do the work for you. Seeing the quote from the researcher provided by Glenn, I think this more than anything vindicates my skepticism for such alleged “evidence” and their simplistic interpretation to mean more than they do.. Forty atoms is all they could simulate (compare that to the 5,010,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms in a drop of water) yet the article tacitly conveyed something much more substantive than that. Also, that “fairly accurately” is quite telling isn’t it? “Fairly”… ;-)


    Look, we disagree, it’s obvious. I don’t see any merit in reductionism and I think it has not been justified affectively by any of its proponents but merely assumed as an “a priori article of faith” to quote Quine. You will not provide me with that which I am requesting (because you can’t) so as far as I am concerned there is not that much else to discuss.

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  104. *on 5.

    Simply put, a simulator cannot simulate what is has not been programmed for. The fact that a simulator allows for the formation of higher level entities is all that is needed for my point to hold.

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  105. Also, as far as scientists are concerned it’s no secret that they often embellish their findings to make them sound more substantive than what they actually are. It’s also quite common for them to engage in confirmation bias, selective attention, as well over-extending the results of a limited research onto things that are not applicable to. We’ve ben told that they created life, when in fact all they did was transplant one part of a biological organism into a pre-existing structure. We’ve been told they have found a planet that they are 100% sure contains life only to find out that said planet doesn’t even exist. We’ve seen socio-biological garbage been propagated several decades ago that has no place either in science or in intelligent discourse. We’ve also seen scientists make claims only to withdraw from them and then restrict themselves to only a limited description once confronted with penetrating questions by skeptics. We’ve also seen scientists misuse and abuse language (sometimes without even realizing it) resulting in the misinformation of the public. So being skeptical of certain claims and in effect challenging the very language and descriptions used by the scientists is only natural, not some conspiracy theory. Not being skeptical of scientists and certain claims they make would be in fact naïve. I just don’t have blind faith in scientism. So I raise questions.

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  106. There can be no "seamless unity" of material and immaterial (as you characterize human thought to be). That is akin to a seamless unity of black and white. You can not reconcile alleged neurology with the soul's existence.

    If it should be objected that material and immaterial are not opposites:
    Yes they are. The prefix "-in" or "-im" means opposite.

    If it should be objected that black and white are "seamlessly unified" in grey:
    No, grey is inbetween white and black. It is not a "unity".

    Final note: I am emphatically not a materialist trying to disprove hylomorphism, I am a dualist (well, actually an Idealist, but for the present purpose a dualist) trying to disprove hylomorphism because I see it as a version of materialism. I also made a relevant also is blog post intended to refute mainstream materialism but that should work on this version as well.

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  107. If you had a lunch box that size I'd recommend you seriously consider going on a diet.

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