Tuesday, August 28, 2012

Think, McFly, think!

As Aristotelians and Thomists use the term, intellect is that faculty by which we grasp abstract concepts (like the concepts man and mortal), put them together into judgments (like the judgment that all men are mortal), and reason logically from one judgment to another (as when we reason from all men are mortal and Socrates is a man to the conclusion that Socrates is mortal).  It is to be distinguished from imagination, the faculty by which we form mental images (such as a visual mental image of what your mother looks like, an auditory mental image of what your favorite song sounds like, a gustatory mental image of what pizza tastes like, and so forth); and from sensation, the faculty by which we perceive the goings on in the external material world and the internal world of the body (such as a visual experience of the computer in front of you, the auditory experience of the cars passing by on the street outside your window, the awareness you have of the position of your legs, etc.).

That intellectual activity -- thought in the strictest sense of the term -- is irreducible to sensation and imagination is a thesis that unites Platonists, Aristotelians, and rationalists of either the ancient Parmenidean sort or the modern Cartesian sort.  The thesis is either explicitly or implicitly denied by modern empiricists and by ancients like Democritus; as I noted in an earlier post, the various bizarre metaphysical conclusions defended by writers like Berkeley and Hume largely rest on the conflation of intellect and imagination.  But the irreducibility of intellect to imagination is for all that undeniable, for several reasons. 

Thinking versus imagining

First, the concepts that are the constituents of intellectual activity are universal while mental images and sensations are always essentially particular.  Any mental image I can form of a man is always going to be of a man of a particular sort -- tall, short, fat, thin, blonde, redheaded, bald, or what have you.  It will fit at most many men, but not all.  But my concept man applies to every single man without exception.  Or to use my stock example, any mental image I can form of a triangle will be an image of an isosceles , scalene, or equilateral triangle, of a black, blue, or green triangle, etc.  But the abstract concept triangularity applies to all triangles without exception.  And so forth.

Second, mental images are always to some extent vague or indeterminate, while concepts are at least often precise and determinate.  To use Descartes’ famous example, a mental image of a chiliagon (a 1,000-sided figure) cannot be clearly distinguished from a mental image of a 1,002-sided figure, or even from a mental image of a circle.  But the concept of a chiliagon is clearly distinct from the concept of a 1,002-sided figure or the concept of a circle.  I cannot clearly differentiate a mental image of a crowd of one million people from a mental image of a crowd of 900,000 people.  But the intellect easily understands the difference between the concept of a crowd of one million people and the concept of a crowd of 900,000 people.  And so on.

Third, we have many concepts that are so abstract that they do not have even the loose sort of connection with mental imagery that concepts like man, triangle, and crowd have.  You cannot visualize triangularity or humanness per se, but you can at least visualize a particular triangle or a particular human being.  But we also have concepts -- such as the concepts law, square root, logical consistency, collapse of the wave function, and innumerably many others -- that can strictly be associated with no mental image at all.  You might form a visual or auditory image of the English word “law” when you think about law, but the concept law obviously has no essential connection whatsoever with that word, since ancient Greeks, Chinese, and Indians had the concept without using that specific word to name it.  You might form a mental image of a certain logician when you contemplate what it is for a theory to be logically consistent, or a mental image of someone observing something when you contemplate the collapse of the wave function, but there is no essential connection whatsoever between (say) the way Alonzo Church looked and the concept logical consistency or (say) what someone looks like when he’s observing a dead cat and the concept wave function collapse.  

The impossibility of materialism 

Now, the reason why intellectual activity cannot in principle be reduced to sensation or imagination is, as it happens, related to the reason why intellectual activity cannot in principle be reduced to, or entirely supervenient upon, or in any other way explicable in terms of material processes of any sort.  For like mental images, the symbols postulated by cognitive scientists (“sentences in the head,” “maps,” or what have you), and any other possible purported material embodiments of thought, (a) necessarily lack the universality that concepts have, (b) necessarily lack the determinacy that concepts have, and (c) generally have exactly the loose and non-essential connection to the concepts they purportedly embody that the word “law” has to the concept law or a mental image of Alonzo Church has to the concept logical consistency.

There is no way the materialist is ever going to square this circle.  To “explain” intellectual activity entirely in terms of material processes is inevitably at least implicitly to deny the existence of the former, or of some essential aspect of the former.   For instance, if you identify thought with material processes, you are necessarily committed to denying, implicitly or explicitly, that our thoughts ever really have any determinate content.  A number of materialists have seen this -- Quine, Dennett, and Bernard Williams are three examples -- and have decided to bite the bullet and accept that the content of all thought and language is inherently indeterminate.  (This is, for instance, the upshot of Quine’s famous “indeterminacy of translation” and “inscrutability of reference” theses and of Dennett’s “two-bitser” example.)

But such claims are indefensible, for reasons James Ross has trenchantly spelled out.  First, if you deny the determinacy of thought, there is no way you will be able to make sense of the vast body of knowledge embodied in mathematics and logic, all of which presupposes that we have determinate concepts.  And there will in that case be no way you will be able to make sense of empirical science, which presupposes mathematics and logic, and in the name of which these materialists endorse their indeterminacy theses.  Second, if you deny the determinacy of thought, then you are committed to denying that we ever determinately think in accordance with valid forms of inference -- modus ponens, modus tollens, etc. -- or that we ever really add, subtract, multiply, etc.  You have to hold that we only seem to do so.  But that entails that we never in fact reason logically or in mathematically sound ways.  This not only (once again) makes science unintelligible, but it also undermines absolutely every argument anyone has ever given, including every argument for materialism.  Third, even to deny that our thoughts ever have a determinate content -- for example, to deny that we ever determinately employ addition as opposed to Saul Kripke’s notion of “quaddition” -- you first have to grasp what addition is and then go on to deny that we ever do it.  But that means that you must have a thought with a certain determinate content even to deny that you ever have thoughts with that specific content.

So, anyone who thinks that thought can even in principle be entirely material hasn’t thought carefully enough about the nature of thought.  The materialist refutes materialism every time he so much as tries to argue for it.  Or so I would argue, and have argued at length elsewhere (e.g. in chapter 7 of Philosophy of Mind, chapter 4 of Aquinas, and at greatest length in my forthcoming American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly article “Kripke, Ross, and the Immaterial Aspects of Thought”).  But I’m not going to say anything more about that subject here, because it’s not relevant to the point I do want to make in this post.  So, if you want to insist that intellectual activity is material, then fine, that’s another subject.  The point for present purposes is that thinking in the strict sense -- grasping abstract concepts, formulating propositions, reasoning from one proposition to another -- is different from forming mental images or the like (even if it is somehow material in some other way).

Science is an essentially intellectual activity

Now everyone knows that this is true where physics and mathematics are concerned.  Of course, we do find it useful to form mental images when we try to grasp the abstractions of these disciplines, at least initially.  We draw geometrical figures on paper, think of points as little dots and of lines as the sort of thing you might draw with a ruler, imagine particles as little round objects moving about and of the structure of spacetime as like a rubber sheet we might twist around in different shapes.  But none of this is strictly correct, and the deeper we understand the concepts involved, the more we see that these visual images are just crude approximations.  That’s why physicists prefer to put things in mathematical terms.  They are not trying to show off or to be difficult for the sake of difficulty.  It is rather that it is precisely those aspects of nature which can be modeled mathematically that they are interested in as physicists.  Hence to put their ideas in non-mathematical terms simply fails to get at the essence of what it is they are trying to describe.  (The mistake some of them make is in assuming that a mathematical description exhausts nature, as opposed to capturing merely an aspect of nature.  But that’s a different subject, which I have addressed here, here, and here.)

This was part of the point of Descartes’ consideration of the possibility that he might be dreaming when he thinks he’s awake, or that the world of his senses might be a hallucination put into his consciousness by an evil spirit.  He was not interesting in providing fodder for college dorm room bull sessions or science-fiction screenwriters.  Nor was he merely interested in raising and responding to the problem of epistemological skepticism.  What he was trying to do was reinforce the idea that physics as he wanted to (re)define it -- and he was one of the fathers of modern science, as well as being the father of modern philosophy -- is something that can be understood only via the intellect, and not via the senses or the imagination.  Even if physical theory must be tested via empirical observation, its content is something that is expressible only in highly abstract terms that we must grasp with the intellect rather in terms of what we can imagine or perceive.  As with the concepts law and logical consistency (to cite some examples given above), any mental imagery we associate with the concepts we learn from a physics textbook are bound to be misleading and will have little or no essential connection to the realities to which the concepts correspond.  That is precisely why modern physics is so hard -- it requires a degree of abstraction of which few are capable.

Philosophy and theology are also essentially intellectual activities

Now the key concepts of the great systems of metaphysics -- whether Platonic, Aristotelian, Thomistic or other Scholastic systems, or modern rationalist systems like those of Descartes and Leibniz -- are also of the sort that can be grasped only via a high degree of intellectual abstraction, with little or nothing in the way of assistance by mental imagery.  Indeed these concepts are if anything of an even higher degree of abstraction than those dealt with by the physicist.  For many of them concern not just material being, nor even the most abstract aspects of material being, but being as such.  When the metaphysician inquires into the nature of existence, or essence, or causation, he wants to know not merely what it is for this or that material thing to exist or have a nature or have a cause, nor even merely what it would be for some particular immaterial thing to exist or to have a nature or a cause.  He also wants to know what existence as such is, what causation as such is, and so forth.  His enterprise requires taking the mind as far from mental imagery -- as far from what we can visualize, for example -- as it can possibly go.  Thus, while metaphysics does not involve complex calculations or the like, it is in another respect even more difficult than physics insofar as it requires an even greater sustained effort of abstraction.  

Hence, when it is said by the Scholastic philosopher or theologian that God is pure actuality, subsistent being itself, and absolutely simple, or that the human soul is the substantial form of a living human being, you are going to misunderstand these concepts completely if you think of them as literally having anything to do with what you can visualize in your mind’s eye.  For example, if you think of an explosion (say) when you think of God qua Actus purus actualizing the world, or of a tiny marble-like object when you think of absolute simplicity, or the dotted-line outline of a body when you think of substantial form, you will be misunderstanding these concepts as badly as -- indeed, far worse than -- you would be misunderstanding molecules if you thought of them as literally being little balls held together by sticks, or of spacetime as if it were literally a kind if sheet with indentations in it.  Similarly, if you think of Descartes’ notion of res cogitans on the model of “ectoplasm,” or goo of the sort you’d see in Ghostbusters only invisible and intangible, or as “bits of non-clockwork” (as Gilbert Ryle described it), then you will be taking it to be nearly the opposite of what Descartes actually had in mind.  For these are all quasi-material kinds of thing insofar as they imply extension and/or composition.  And Descartes’ whole point was that a res cogitans is neither extended nor composed of parts.  It is precisely the sort of thing you cannot visualize, nor model on the workings of any kind of material system whatsoever, even the most ethereal.

Double standard

And this is where so many New Atheist types come to grief.  (As I find I keep having to reassure the hypersensitive reader, no, I don’t mean all atheists.  I mean the kind of atheist who seriously thinks a Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, or Laurence Krauss deserves to be mentioned in the same breath with J. L. Mackie, J. Howard Sobel, or Quentin Smith.)  Those among them who actually know something about science (and not merely how to shout “Science!”) are well aware that you are not going to understand physics properly if you take too seriously the mental images we tend to form when we hear terms like “spacetime,” “particle,” “energy,” and the like.  They are well aware that physics requires us to abstract from ordinary experience, to move away from what we can visualize or otherwise imagine.  The man on the street may think that whatever is real must be something you could in principle see, hear, touch, smell, or taste, but the more scientifically savvy sort of New Atheist knows that this is a vulgar prejudice, and that it is with the intellect rather than the senses that we truly understand the world.

And yet, when dealing with metaphysical or theological concepts New Atheist types suddenly become complete Philistines, feigning an inability to grasp anything but the most crude and literal physical descriptions.  Hence if you claim that the human mind is immaterial, they suppose that you simply must be committed to the existence of a sort of magical goop that floats above the brain; and if you say that the universe has a cause they will insist that you must believe in a kind of super-Edison who draws up blueprints, gets out his tools, and sets to work.  And when you object to these preposterous straw men, they will pretend that they cannot understand your language in any other way, that it is mere empty verbiage unless read in such a crassly mundane fashion.  Of course, if they held physics to the same narrow, literalistic standard, they would have to dismiss wormholes, quantum foam, black holes, gravity wells, electric fields, centers of gravity, and on and on.  (I’ve discussed this double standard before, here and here.)

It is no good to object that the predictive and technological successes of physics justify this double standard, for two reasons.  First, the predictive and technological successes of physics are relevant only to the epistemic credentials of physics, but not to its intelligibility.  In other words, that such-and-such a theory in physics has been confirmed experimentally and/or had various practical applications is relevant to showing that it is correct, but it is not necessarily relevant to interpreting the content of the theory.  Physicists knew well enough what Einstein was claiming before tests like the 1919 and 1922 eclipse experiments provided evidence that he was right.  Similarly, though string theory has proved notoriously difficult to test, we know well enough what the theory means; the trouble is just finding out whether it’s true.  (No one would make the asinine claim that string theory simply must be committed to the existence of literal microscopic shoelaces unless and until some experimental test of the theory is devised.)  

So, even if it were correct to say that metaphysical and theological claims cannot be rationally justified, it simply wouldn’t follow that such claims must be given the crude readings New Atheists often foist upon them, on pain of being empty verbiage.  But it is, in any case, not correct to say that they cannot be rationally justified, which brings us to the second problem.  That the methods of empirical science are rational does not entail that they are the only methods that are rational.  In particular, and as I have pointed out many times, it is simply a blatant non sequitur to claim that science’s success in discovering those aspects of reality that are susceptible of strict prediction and control shows that those aspects exhaust reality.  This is like a drunk’s insisting that because it is only under the streetlamp that there is light to look for his keys, it follows that the keys cannot be elsewhere and/or that there cannot be methods by which they might be sought elsewhere.

As I have also pointed out many times, the premises from which the historically most important arguments for God’s existence proceed derive, not from natural science, but from metaphysics and the philosophy of nature.  They are, that is to say, premises that any possible natural science must take for granted, and are thus more secure than the claims of natural science, not less -- or so many natural theologians would claim.  Obviously such claims are controversial, but the point is that to insist that metaphysical and theological assertions must be justified via the methods of natural science if they are to be worthy of attention is not to refute the metaphysician or theologian, but merely to beg the question against the metaphysician or theologian.  Philosophical arguments are different from empirical scientific arguments, but they are no less rational than empirical scientific arguments.  

Thinking abstractly

Some readers might wonder how what I am saying here squares with what I said in a recent post about the danger of reifying abstractions.  But there is no inconsistency.  Naturally, I was not saying in the earlier post that abstraction per se is bad; indeed, I said the opposite.  What I was criticizing was treating as substances (in the Aristotelian sense of that term) things which of their nature cannot be substances.  Mathematical features of reality, for example, are aspects of substances and of relations between substances, rather than substances in their own right.  Hence it is an error to treat the mathematical description of nature that physics gives us as if it were a complete description.  Bodily organs like brains are also not substances but rather components of substances (namely of certain kinds of organisms) and intelligible only by reference to the complete organisms of which they form integral parts.  Hence it is a category mistake -- deriving from a tendency first to abstract the brain from the organism and then fallaciously to treat it as a substance in its own right -- to speak (as some neuroscientists and philosophers do) of the brain or its components as if they “see,” “interpret,” etc., or to conclude that since free choice, purpose, etc. are not to be found at the neurological level of description, it follows that they don’t exist at all.  These concepts apply in the first place only to the organism as a whole, and not to its parts.

The arguments of natural theology that I am defending do not commit errors like this.  They abstract from experience, but they do not fallaciously treat accidents as if they were substances or parts as if they were wholes.

In any event, it is only by learning to think abstractly -- to engage in rational thought in its highest and purest form -- that you are ever going to understand metaphysical and theological arguments well enough to earn the right to criticize them.  “New Atheists” -- by which, again, I do not mean all atheists, but rather the likes of Dawkins, Coyne, Myers and their innumerable online clones -- have not earned this right, precisely because they do not think at this high level.  Indeed, they do very little thinking at all where metaphysics and theology are concerned, unless you count smartass remarks aimed at straw men followed by mutual high fives “thinking.”  When dealing with one of these brainiacs, you might as well meet him where he’s at and channel Biff Tannen:

491 comments:

  1. Wouldn't P[U] be a more appropriate desgination?

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  2. @Josh,

    On that point, your rhetoric has taken a strange turn. I'm curious if you'd agree with a few things:

    1) Things exist.

    Yes, transcendentally. If we can ask the question, we have demonstrated that *something* exists.


    2) These things are directly perceivable by us (in the case of sense objects)

    Yes, sense-data (percepts) are held directly.


    3) The thing in the mind is the same as the thing outside it (requirement for knowledge)

    "Same as" is either incorrect, or problematic because it's ambiguous.

    The concepts in my mind are isomorphic to things outside my mind (for concepts about things take to be outside my mind). The concept-of-apple is not the same as an apple-the-thing-outside-my-mind, but there is a cognitive association, an isomorphism between the natural phenomenon we call "apple" and the concept-of-apple in my mind. That means that the apple-the-thing-outside-my-mind when appearing-to-me via my senses is likely to activate my concept-of-apple, as opposed to concept-of-dog, or concept-of-book.

    4) We know some of these things through ideas
    That's ambiguous too. We know about the real world through reasoning about our sense-data, and the performance of internal models that account for and predict our experiences.

    I'm fine with 'ideas' referring to models that we adopt and deploy because they perform. But I think just saying "OK" to 4) as is runs the risk that "ideas" might be construed also as "intuition" or worse.


    and

    5) These ideas are that by which we know these things, not that which we know directly (a la Locke; crucial point here)

    Sorry, given my comments in 4, I'm not sure how to expand the two options out. Maybe you can rephrase it in light of my distinctions on "ideas". Models are the mechanisms by which we acquire and substantiate natural knowledge, but the model itself is not the knowledge, or the endpoint of our knowledge. We justify our knowledge of the natural world as "true belief" based on the performance of the models we have.


    Trying to make sure you aren't simply a confused Realist, as Gilson thought most philosophers were.

    Well, it would good to find out, if so. I'm stuck at a lower level of confusion at the moment, regarding the "throughness" you are asking about in "ideas".

    -TS

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  3. Touchstone,

    You just begged the question again. Your system is not Kant's--you can't infer from subjectivity to noumena. Your system is Derrida's. What does this mean? It means that every single word or concept that you use is open to interpretation. There is no "fact of the matter" about "parsimony", for instance. You cannot even give an objective definition of that term. There is no objective "inside", no objective "outside", nothing "transcendental" (nothing is "outside of the text"), nothing objectively "true". All of this is mere dust in the wind. You cannot appeal to it without begging the question.

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  4. Derrida spends quite a bit of time denying the possibility of "transcendental truth", by the way. That's a large portion of his philosophy. You can't have your computationalism and eat it too.

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  5. @Glenn

    An interesting response.

    To apply Poincaré's observations to your application of Poincaré's observations to my quote, one way of testing a framework is checking to see how well it avoids contradictions. Strangely, however, you implicitly if not explicitly deny that contradictions are to be avoided.

    Sure, but care must be taken in how one identifies contradictions. For example, someone elsewhere last week was upset because I was not abandoning a materialist theory of mind because it contradicted our intuitions of libertarian free will, which was "obviously true". My reply was that that intuition, however visceral it may be is not "obviously true" in a model-based epsitemology, etc., but, ya know, that just didn't cut it. It was a blatant, obvious contradiction!

    I'm not putting that response in your mouth at all, but pointing that out because a lot of what I see here (not necessarily from you) in this combox is similar -- 'that's obvious nonsense'. If X militates against our intuitions, even the strongest ones, that does not entail a contradiction.

    That aside, though, yes, on an internal consistency and generality of application basis, contradictions are to be avoided, and cause for rethinking the framework.


    Some while ago you went on and on about the value of performative models and how results from these models are to be fed back in to the models in order that their output might be tweaked and refined, and thusly made increasingly useful.

    Yet despite the fact that valuable feedback regarding the (let us be charitable and say) loose results of your 'models' has been constantly submitted by various commenters, this valuable feedback has been dismissed, rejected and not at all utilized to tweak and refine your 'outputs'.

    Assessments of "loose results" -- by which I assume you mean poor performance? -- are fine as advisories or criticisms, but they aren't models. For example, if I read Dr. Feser's posts and suppose, provisionally, that I might approach the world along the principles he would commend, I don't even get a model to judge. It's mishmash of intuitions that are architected to evade performance tests, or more charitably, meta-truths that are perfectly plastic enough to account for any and all possible worlds.

    There's always room for better performance, and constructive criticism is an important engine toward improving our models, but there's nothing to adopt here, in Thomism, that preserves the concepts of models and performance. The alternative here is to abandon model-based epistemology and any obligations to performance that go with it.

    And that's your right, or anyone's to advocate. But that's not refusing a better model. It's refusing the repudiation of models and performance of those models as the basis for epistemology. And in efforts to embrace -- what? -- in lieu of that? Thomism? Epistemically, that's crippling, in my view. It's an anti-model, and coalesces around mystical intuitions, and mysterious forms of gnosis and "revelation".


    If it be taken as a rule that consistency is an admirable quality, then that your consistency consists of continuously denying both the presence and detriment of contradictions serves well in showing that the rule has at least one notable exception.

    Well, maybe it's good to just look at one specific example of this, and see what the nature of this putative contradiction is. If it's "obviously contradictory" with the received truth of the "immateriality of the intellect", I will be advising you that you are E stomping your feet at the inadequacy of R-geometry because it has no Parallel Lines.

    But, that's jumping ahead. Give me an example of the kind of contradiction you are talking about and we'll look at it.

    -TS

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  6. @Glenn

    (con't)

    (Ere you contemplate the retort of "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", consider this: a) you are in the camp which holds that the development of computers can be advanced to the point that computers may be legitimately said to have minds in the same sense that humans have minds; b) the successful operability of computers depends on consistency on several very real, fundamental and meaningful levels; c) ergo, you are in the camp which looks forward to the day that computers will have what are disparagingly referred to as little minds.)

    Heh, I'd never heard that quote before. But no, I'm not a fan of ad-hoc. Uniformity and generality are design virtues for models. Performative models for the real world are difficult to build, though. They must contend with the evidence and behavior we see from the real world. Theology doesn't engage like that, does not have to struggle with the real world. So there's a natural tension that obtains; problems in real world models are not trumped by "perfect" theologies, because the nature of even a "perfect theology" is ad-hoc -- it's not accountable to real world performance tests and falsification.

    If that is controversial for you, consider the idea of Omphalos -- God creating Adam with a navel (and by extension, starlight placed "just so", to appear to us as if coming from a galaxy a billion light years away, when in fact created just by God in a flash, some few thousands of years ago). Omphalos is *perfect*. It has no weaknessess, explanatorily, given an omnipotent, omniscient, impassible God.

    Any natural theory of cosmology or origins cannot hope to compete. It's going to have gaps, problems, dissonances, because we are constraining our explanations to naturally plausible explanatory resources. There is no 'and then a miracle happens' in the model, no omnipotent deity resorted to as a plenopotentiary for resolving any problems in a neat, tidy way.

    So consistency is a plus, a goal. But it's that very commitment -- a commitment to models that are not ad-hoc, or which make appeals to magic or the supernatural -- that make those models problematic in some respects. Lacking in specifics (abiogenesis, for example), gaps (lots of fossil types we still don't have), counterintuitive (QM) and other "looseness" obtains. But they obtain because they don't and can't cheat on their explanations. There's no appealing to "immaterial intellect" allowed in that method, for example, so the models don't have that magic wand to wave, and have to work things out based on what we know exists and the way things work without ad-hoc creations and other features of theology that would "tighten things up" artificially.

    -TS

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  7. @rank sophist,
    You just begged the question again.
    This is starting to look like another bot-response, rank. The "question" seems to keep moving around.

    I thought the "question" was whether "outside" my mind exists based on my awareness of stimuli.

    That doesn't jibe with this response, though. So, state your view clear on what "the question" is that is being begged, and it will be something I can respond to on point. As it is, it just looks reflexive.

    Your system is not Kant's--you can't infer from subjectivity to noumena. Your system is Derrida's.
    My system isn't Kan't OR Derrida's. Derrida was a critic, remember, a deconstructionist. He had important criticisms to bring to the table, but criticism do not a framework make, by themselves.

    What does this mean? It means that every single word or concept that you use is open to interpretation. There is no "fact of the matter" about "parsimony", for instance.
    Yes, there no Parallel Lines in R-geometry. There is a "fact of the matter", but in a derived sense, and with possible overloading. And it needs to be pointed out here that we are talking about the mind adjudicating among contestants in response to stimuli from outside. That is as perfectly subjective as subjective can be. It is solely, and perfectly privately of the mind. That does not deny objective extra-mental reality, or the existence of objective definitions (definitions are conventional so those conventions would be as objectively real as a footprint in the sand).

    None of this even scratches the concept of parsimony as a tool I bring to bear in mind, given incoming stimuli. Being "open to interpretation" and "subjective" does not preclude or even impede its use, it's effective use in identifying economy.

    You cannot even give an objective definition of that term.
    I don't recognize "objective definition" as meaningful, beyond being a conventional agreement between parties. If two or more parties agree on a defintion, you have a convention, which as I said above, is as factual and actual as footprints that group might leave on the beach. But if you are asking for an "objective definition" as a kind of thing that is not the product of subjective minds, a "meaning which obtains independent of mind or will" in some transcendent sense, I understand that to be a divide-by-zero; definitions are conventions between minds, and have no more and no less reality than the convention that invests meaning in the term or concept.

    There is no objective "inside", no objective "outside", nothing "transcendental" (nothing is "outside of the text"), nothing objectively "true". All of this is mere dust in the wind. You cannot appeal to it without begging the question.
    None of this follows from what I've said. If we understand by "inside" some actively conscious part of my brain, that definition can hold objectively. Machines can instrumentally detect phenomena "inside" (synaptic activity in my frontal cortext) as opposed to "outside" (photons emanating from a candle across the room from me). The definition itself is something we adopt by convention, but the distinctions that obtain from the definition can be, and commonly are deployed as objective demarcations, demarcations we can demonstrate and deploy which are intersubjective, not dependent on what anyone thinks or wills (the photons are "outside" based on that definition).

    I invite you provide an example of an "objective definition", along with the basis for deeming it "objective". That would help me make more sense of your complaint here, perhaps.

    -TS

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  8. What is happening is model building and testing. I am confronted with stimuli, and I evaluate various conjectures about what the stimulus might indicate, represent, or mean. I might suppose that a visual chunk of red in my field of view which is consistent in size and color, but is moving steadily from left to right is a "thing".

    I see you are now using the language of "stimuli" instead of "percepts", which obscures the fact that what we are confronted with in experience is P[X], not X. But despite the opaque language, "Visual chunk of red" is already a synthesis of stimuli into a "chunk" spatially distinguished by color from other stimuli, and so is a P[X]. "Moving steadily" is yet more perceptual processing, as it requires not only a synthesis across space, but across time as well. Another P[X]. Kant goes over all this in his transcendental aesthetic.

    If we only have P[X], and cannot suppose or impute the existence of external realities that account for P[X] occurring as they do, we cannot get off the ground at all. We cannot take even a first step toward knowledge.

    That's the point. Your scheme can't really provide a foundation for knowledge, which is why it is necessary to sneak in principles foreign to it, some backdoor way to get an anchor in reality.

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  9. This is starting to look like another bot-response, rank. The "question" seems to keep moving around.

    I thought the "question" was whether "outside" my mind exists based on my awareness of stimuli.

    That doesn't jibe with this response, though. So, state your view clear on what "the question" is that is being begged, and it will be something I can respond to on point. As it is, it just looks reflexive.


    The argument: whether something objective exists. This relies on a steady "that" in the "this means that" equation.

    Your question-begging counterattack: an appeal to a steady "that" (ideas like "parsimony", the "law of identity", etc.) to show that there is a steady "outside". But these concepts cannot be steady unless you presuppose an outside, and so you've assumed what you have to prove.

    My system isn't Kan't OR Derrida's. Derrida was a critic, remember, a deconstructionist. He had important criticisms to bring to the table, but criticism do not a framework make, by themselves.

    You clearly haven't read much Derrida. Familiar with différence, the gram, the trace, the mark, the "Wholly Other", the gift and so on? He was far from a mere critic. He was as systematic a philosopher as any other. And you, my friend, buy into his basic suppositions.

    Yes, there no Parallel Lines in R-geometry.

    What is a "parallel line"? What is "R-geometry"? More vacuous concepts. Keep grasping at straws, Touchstone. Every appeal to these things is just another begged question.

    That does not deny objective extra-mental reality, or the existence of objective definitions (definitions are conventional so those conventions would be as objectively real as a footprint in the sand).

    "Extra-mental reality" is an incoherent idea under your system. Any attempt to demonstrate it is always already not "extra-mental".

    I don't recognize "objective definition" as meaningful, beyond being a conventional agreement between parties.

    Then you agree that there is no such thing as parsimony. There is no such thing as Ockham's razor. There is no such thing as "outside". All of these are empty terms and concepts that have no connection to anything steady and objective, and so it's impossible to use them to prove the existence of something steady and objective. In other words, truth is a lie and science is impossible. The end. You lose.

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  10. I invite you provide an example of an "objective definition", along with the basis for deeming it "objective". That would help me make more sense of your complaint here, perhaps.

    I think the idea of "objective" is pretty clear. You appeal to it yourself when you talk about "distance between two points" and so forth as being objective. But, under your system, it's impossible for anything like that to exist.

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  11. rank,

    You appeal to it yourself when you talk about "distance between two points" and so forth as being objective. But, under your system, it's impossible for anything like that to exist.

    Is it that it can't exist? Or that there's no way to ever know if it does exist, considering the mess TS makes of the mind?

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  12. @David T,


    I see you are now using the language of "stimuli" instead of "percepts", which obscures the fact that what we are confronted with in experience is P[X], not X.

    I'm fine just using 'percept' across the board if you prefer.

    But despite the opaque language, "Visual chunk of red" is already a synthesis of stimuli into a "chunk" spatially distinguished by color from other stimuli, and so is a P[X]. "Moving steadily" is yet more perceptual processing, as it requires not only a synthesis across space, but across time as well. Another P[X]. Kant goes over all this in his transcendental aesthetic.
    Yes, and this is "other" to I. It is novel, not part of my current I prior to its occurring. Doesn't matter what is moving, or how fast. Just state changes that are occurring is all that's needed to reify "other", instantiate "outside". If it's not a state change internal to I, something I changed, as opposed to something I became aware of changing, there is no percept.

    I am aware of these percepts, so I am unavoidably thus aware of "other", "outside". I don't need to take for granted that it's a red ball, or something on a table, or any of that. My awareness itself implicates "other".


    That's the point. Your scheme can't really provide a foundation for knowledge, which is why it is necessary to sneak in principles foreign to it, some backdoor way to get an anchor in reality.

    Hold on. My scheme does not model against percepts as the endpoint phenomena. That's your recommendation. I just pointed out models work *through* percepts to build models of extra-mental entities and behaviors. The target of the model is not the percepts, but behavior and state of objects BEYOND the percept.

    That doesn't need, and can't use any justification. Percepts as brute appearances can't possibly build knowledge, or render intelligibility. Models of hypothesized extra-mental reality can. It's a research program, percept phenomena as the prompt for hypotheses and models that can account for our percepts, explain them, and predict them in novel, entailed and precise ways.

    The "backdoor" you are missing is just the concept of the hypothesis, the provisional contemplation of a model or explanation for the percepts that arrive for our consideration.

    -TS



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  13. @rank sophist


    I think the idea of "objective" is pretty clear. You appeal to it yourself when you talk about "distance between two points" and so forth as being objective. But, under your system, it's impossible for anything like that to exist.

    You're investing a lot in your notion of an "objective definition", per the above. I've explained my understanding of the term, as a conventional agreement between parties, and a definition is as exactly as objective as the conventional agreement is, determined by whether that agreement is a fact of the world that obtains independent of mind or will.

    But, importantly, that doesn't not locate any objectivity in the meaning of the definition itself, but rather in the existence of any conventional agreement about that definition.

    If you agree with my understanding here, then your charge makes no sense whatsoever. If you don't, then you should provide me an example of an objective definition, and explain what makes that definition objective.

    So what's an example of an "objective definition" in your view. It's manifestly NOT "pretty clear", unless you are prepared to agree with my comments on the concept here, and above.

    -TS

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  14. Touchstone,

    You don't understand that you're holding contradictory positions. You cannot simultaneously believe:

    1. that all perception is reduction; and
    2. that there are "objective" relations.

    Any "objective" relation is always already subjective and relative under your system, and it's impossible for the "this" to meet the "that". It cannot be otherwise.

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  15. And, before you confuse the issue again, remember that anything you say is necessarily based on the subjective, relative percepts that you believe determine thought. As a result, you cannot possibly reason to the existence of something "objective", because there is nothing objective inside this closed system. Anything that you cite as objective has already been relativized. Even the concept "objective" is relative. Even the idea of the "outside" is inside. You cannot cite something as a "truth", let alone as a "transcendental truth", let alone as a "necessary truth".

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  16. It's a research program, percept phenomena as the prompt for hypotheses and models that can account for our percepts, explain them, and predict them in novel, entailed and precise ways.

    You just aren't seeing that the best your models can do is model percepts in terms of other percepts, or explain how percepts arise in terms of other percepts, or predict percepts in terms of other percepts. This isn't a recommendation I am making but the logic of your scheme. I quite agree that science can develop models that predict percepts in terms of other percepts. But that doesn't get you an inch closer to showing how reality itself gives rise to percepts.

    I'm tempted to ask how your models account for our percepts, but I think what will happen is that you will start talking about photons, the visual cortex, etc., all of which are percepts and so only explain percepts in terms of other percepts.


    The efficacy of this process is seen just by considering alternatives. If I don't conjecture something as a starting hypothesis, or draw upon an existing model I have in my head, then.... WHAT? I have stimuli appearing-to-me. I can close my eyes, I guess. But if I want to pursue the sensibility of this stimulus, I will have to conjecture *something*. Percepts just as percepts won't explain anything. They are only significant if there is something behind them. That's the only 'raw materials' I have available for rendering my stimuli sensible

    Do you see what you are saying here? You are saying that you've got to assume that your scheme reaches to real things because you can't see how it would otherwise work. Again, that's the point. It doesn't work. Just because you need it to reach reality doesn't mean it does reach reality, no matter how much you conjecture or hypothesize. This is the reason many of us have abandoned this whole approach to philosophy - it ultimately doesn't work, and assuming it works just because you need it to is cheating.

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  17. @rank sophist,

    Any "objective" relation is always already subjective and relative under your system, and it's impossible for the "this" to meet the "that". It cannot be otherwise.

    Why won't you just give me an example of an "objective definition", and your basis for "objective" for that definition. That will allow me to answer in terms you agree to, even if by contrast. I don't think you understand the terms you are using, so I'm asking for an applied example, that's all. Any conflicts you suppose you see from me are no barrier to your supplying such an example.

    That would be helpful, thanks.

    -TS

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  18. @David T,

    You just aren't seeing that the best your models can do is model percepts in terms of other percepts, or explain how percepts arise in terms of other percepts, or predict percepts in terms of other percepts.
    Percepts are the "raw materials" we work with to build models. But they are used to build models that abstract objects and dynamics external to those percepts.

    Think about a cryptanalysis operation, where all you have are ciphertexts. The ciphertexts themselves are opaque as first order phenomena. They don't mean anything to you an and of themselves. But if you apply some conjectures about what the source text might be, or what kinds of transformations might have been applied to some source text that might produce ciphertexts that match the ciphertexts you have available, you may "crack the code".

    Such an endeavor presupposes a sourcetext and a cipher. If you make headway and conjectured ciphers for intelligible sourcetexts are found that produce the ciphertexts you have, you have a basis for understanding your ciphertexts as ciphertexts, procedural derivatives of a deteministic algorithm working on intelligible sourcetexts.

    The point here is not a discussion of cryptanalysis, but rather to emphasize that in such an endeavor, all you have to work with is the texts, which you surmise maybe ciphertexts. And all you will get on the backside is more putative ciphertexts, candidates for decryption based on your hypotheses about sources and ciphers.

    You NEVER see the source text, or the cipher directly, and yet, because you are modeling THROUGH the ciphertexts toward a model of source and cipher, when you have an intelligible match (for any received text that appears opaque, you can derive an intelligible message based on decryption models you've built), you have the basis for knowledge of a source of messages, and a cipher mechanisms.

    And for all that, you've had no access to any message sender, source text, or cipher.

    This isn't a recommendation I am making but the logic of your scheme. I quite agree that science can develop models that predict percepts in terms of other percepts. But that doesn't get you an inch closer to showing how reality itself gives rise to percepts.
    It does, unless you think percepts themselves cause other percepts, which itself is a natural (if dead end) exercise in modeling building.

    Look at any model you'd like -- gravity, magnetism, inertia, whatever, and see if you can make headway at a "percepts-only" level, where the only explanatory resources are percepts, the only extant objects in the paradigm are percepts (and the mind considering them).

    What do you suppose accounts for the predictions that succeed? That goes to the point I'm making here.

    I'm tempted to ask how your models account for our percepts, but I think what will happen is that you will start talking about photons, the visual cortex, etc., all of which are percepts and so only explain percepts in terms of other percepts.

    No the photon is not a percept. The percept is our awareness of the photon, a mental state that is activated by the photon, but which is NOT the photon. This is how percepts are accounted for, by models that hypothesize objects and dynamics external to percepts. Percepts as just brute appearances cannot render such an accounting (try it!).

    -TS

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  19. Bullpup,

    It's kind of both. We can't know that it exists, but the extent of our "not-knowing" is so strong that, like with Derrida, we're forced to conclude that there is nothing at all outside of percepts.

    Touchstone,

    The relationship between two points is objective. It has determinate content--a "fact of the matter". This is as you say. I agree with this definition. There is content there regardless of perception. Science deals in the analysis of such content.

    But, if brains and minds operate as you claim, then it's impossible for such relationships to exist. Any attempt to cash out our percepts in terms of "objective", "extra-mental" states of affairs is doomed to beg the question.

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  20. Touchstone,

    Regarding cryptoanalysis, your example begs the question again. Ciphertext can only exist, by definition, because of source text and so on. But you can't say the same thing about this situation. There would have to be a "fact of the matter" about percepts themselves--their objective existence. Yet, your own system prevents this from being true. A "percept" is just another idea that someone invented. It, as an idea, has no more content than does anything else in this bizarro world you've crafted. It's impossible to speak about percepts or about anything else: none of it has more than a personal, relative meaning--at best.

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  21. none of it has more than a personal, relative meaning--at best.

    And even that's not really "gettable", since what is personal and relative meaning only is so in TS's system by virtue of another mind, which can only have meaning by virtue of...

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  22. Touchstone,

    The point here is not a discussion of cryptanalysis, but rather to emphasize that in such an endeavor, all you have to work with is the texts, which you surmise maybe ciphertexts.

    In a manner of speaking this is true.

    In actuality, however, and to use your favorite annoying word (though not for the purpose of annoying you), it is obvious that you have more than the texts to work with. And it is this 'more than the texts' that one brings to bear on the texts. Without this 'more than the texts', the cipher texts are guaranteed to remain encoded.

    You can claim that this 'more than the texts' is floating about like plankton somewhere in the Web of Semantics Sea, and it is just a matter of trawling for whatever of this 'more than the texts' might be of use in decrypting the cipher texts.

    But how will you know what might be useful?

    You likely will need experience, judgment, discernment; perhaps intuition (gasp!), and certainly an ability to make at least halfway decent educated guesses.

    You may need to select from multiple possibilities the few for which time and resources are available to pursue.

    You may need to be able to tell that something which initially seemed promising isn't panning out (or that it just needs more time to grind away).

    And you may need to be able to tell that something which previously didn't pan out might yield more promising results if re-applied in a slightly different way.

    You also may need to be able to see how several techniques each of which individually has led to a dead-end might be skillfully combined to get around those dead-ends.

    On and on and on.

    In short and in other words, you will need to utilize the intellect as, to quote Dr. Feser above, Aristotelians and Thomists use the term.

    If you choose not to utilize it, and you may feel so inclined on the principle that anything smacking of Thomism is to be eschewed, you'll find yourself drowning in your Web of Semantics Sea (at least when trying to decode cipher texts).

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  23. I very much liked your summation of the issue with content and physicalism. Although, I was curious about more on what you would say on the nature of God's psychology. (I was the guy that authored that email to you, hi! I'm not sure if this article was the one in response to it, but it's very long and informative!)

    You've laid out that God's mind is suppose to be simple, but presumably it still has properties. God still desires things, believes things, and hence has intentional states. I'm curious about how this can be sorted out on divine simplicity (do God's intentional states have epistemic relations with each other? Do his belief-desire pairs form motivations? If so how?)

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  24. @rank sophist,

    Regarding cryptoanalysis, your example begs the question again. Ciphertext can only exist, by definition, because of source text and so on. But you can't say the same thing about this situation.
    In my example, there was no message sender, source text or cipher assumed. It was only conjectured. And one path from that scenario, any putative ciphertext would defy all attempts to decipher it, to render some intelligible source text from it. The percepts would be perfectly opaque, completely unintelligible, with no message, text or cipher detectable at all.

    On another path, some deciphering would succeed. But there is no source text or cipher or sender assumed or "defined in" from the outset. There might not be any, for all we can say from the start. Which is analogous to any "pre-deciphering" we may attempt on our percepts regarding extra-mental objects and dynamics.



    There would have to be a "fact of the matter" about percepts themselves--their objective existence. Yet, your own system prevents this from being true. A "percept" is just another idea that someone invented. It, as an idea, has no more content than does anything else in this bizarro world you've crafted.
    No, one again you are confusing map and territory. The percept-as-concept, the concept (not the optical nerve activity) we refer to as "percept" is something we construct, but the percept itself, the brute appearing-as that is pre-conceptual, pre-symbolic, infra-philosophical is not the same thing.

    Consider, if you made no commitments to the reality or unreality of extra-mental objects, would your percepts cease to exist. If you formed no concept about percepts, would percepts go away, or would they continue to appear to you?

    The [external source of what the concept 'percept' is about] is the predicate for all awareness, and thus for all consciousness, and thus for all cognition. You are stuck on the solipsist groove, and supposing mind is the only existence. But just the act of "supposing", or deploying the concept of "only" presupposes awareness, presupposes other.

    So other is not a symbolic construct at the head of the chain. It's a brute phenomenon, a fundamental experience prior to any conceptual or symbolic constructs we might lay on top of it. You are thinking that consciousness obtains without awareness, but it cannot, as consciousness *is* awareness. Any interpretation or symbolics happen ABOVE the level of brute appearing-as to our minds.

    It's impossible to speak about percepts or about anything else: none of it has more than a personal, relative meaning--at best.
    No, and there's no reason to think it's impossible. A personal meaning, once shared via communication (generating stimuli that in turn generate percepts elsewhere that create compatible concepts!), becomes shared meaning.

    -TS

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  25. Think about a cryptanalysis operation, where all you have are ciphertexts. The ciphertexts themselves are opaque as first order phenomena. They don't mean anything to you an and of themselves. But if you apply some conjectures about what the source text might be, or what kinds of transformations might have been applied to some source text that might produce ciphertexts that match the ciphertexts you have available, you may "crack the code"

    This supports my case, not yours. Cryptanalysis only works because it decodes into something you already know . That's how the analyst is able to separate gibberish from genuine results. If you've never heard of aircraft carriers, convoys or the escort mission, the message "aircraft carrier escorts convoy" will appear gibberish to you, indistinguishable from genuine gibberish. But what we are discussing is how people come to know things like aircraft carriers and convoys in the first place. Your analogy is a perfect illustration of why your scheme necessarily involves a supplementary way of knowing the world - and not just unformed stimuli, but genuine knowledge of things like aircraft carriers.

    Look at any model you'd like -- gravity, magnetism, inertia, whatever, and see if you can make headway at a "percepts-only" level, where the only explanatory resources are percepts, the only extant objects in the paradigm are percepts (and the mind considering them).

    What do you suppose accounts for the predictions that succeed? That goes to the point I'm making here


    I agree that you can't make headway with a "percepts-only" level. This is why I don't accept your scheme from the get-go, and why an Aristotelian understanding is preferable. Again, you are simply assuming that your scheme reaches reality because you need it to.

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  26. In my example, there was no message sender, source text or cipher assumed. It was only conjectured.

    You swap one begged question for another. You can't even conjecture an outside to this text, Touchstone. Derrida spent many decades showing that such attempts were wholly futile. This is why his most famous statement reads, "There is nothing outside the text." It's impossible to get outside of this web you've created, to conjecture about an outside or even to think about an outside.

    No, one again you are confusing map and territory. The percept-as-concept, the concept (not the optical nerve activity) we refer to as "percept" is something we construct, but the percept itself, the brute appearing-as that is pre-conceptual, pre-symbolic, infra-philosophical is not the same thing.

    Begs the question again. How can we know that percepts are pre-philosophical? Utterly impossible. Everything that we know is "writing"--everything is a "concept". There is nothing outside of writing, and nothing outside of the text. Whatever you believe--every thought, every perception, every percept, every theory, every equation--is just another interpretation of nothingness. This is what Derrida firmly believed. You can't get out of it.

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  27. You can't even believe that percepts exist. Nothing "exists". There are only vast, relative illusions that we stretch across a non-existent canvas. All of science is false. There are no "physical facts". There are no facts. There is nothing "before writing" or "before concepts", because any attempt to gesture at such a time necessarily appeals to yet more concepts. In the end, there isn't anything at all.

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  28. I'm just a newbie among you guys. But I think the funniest thing I'm taking away from TS's system is that he's trying so hard to make it work, but the only way he could make it work is by... well, some kind of Aristotilean/Thomist or even Cartesian metaphysics, even if he wouldn't call it that.

    In other words, TS seems to really be trying to be a naturalist, but his argument keeps falling apart... unless he gives up naturalism.

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  29. Touchstone,

    This is to annoy you (though it should be obvious that I mean to annoy only in a playful way). It is from the Dreyfus brothers' Mind Over Machine (1988).

    During those days of the infancy of operations research and of the digital computer [in the mid 1960s], the average man or woman at a cocktail party had not heard that machines could think, learn, and create as [Herbert] Simon and [Allen] Newell had claimed or could be used to determine optimal decisions for real-world problems as Stuart [Dreyfus] believed. Hence in social situations Stuart found himself frequently called upon to explain what he was working on at the mysterious and supersecret RAND Corporation and how it was that computers could become decision-makers, not merely number crunchers.

    His favorite example became the problem of when to replace one's car. Supposing one planned to drive a car for the next thirty years or so, how often should an old one be replaced by a new? It's simple, he would say, given a digital computer. You estimate the costs of operating an aging car and the cost of buying a new one; throw in other factors such as the need for reliable performance, depreciation, and the pleasure derived from ownership; weigh all of these factors appropriately; and let the computer determine the most desirable sequence of decisions to replace. It's really all number crunching, after all, once you program the appropriate facts and tradeoffs between various factors.

    One evening at a cocktail party, after this standard answer to the customary question, an unusual thing happened. Instead of thanking Stuart and moving on to something else more comprehensible, a listener innocently asked, "Oh, and is this the way you decide when to replace your car?"

    "Of course not," Stuart replied without hesitation. "That was only an example of how to use the formal procedure. Buying a new car is for me much too important to be left to a mathematical model. I mull it over a while, and buy a new car when it feels right."

    The next morning Stuart began to reflect upon what had happened. How could he tell generals, businessmen, and policy-makers that they should use a decision-making technique that he himself wouldn't use in his own personal life? Why did he trust his feelings rather than his formal car replacement model?


    (cont)

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  30. Yes, things have progressed considerably since then, and computers today are better able to guide decision making. But though there are notable examples to the contrary, on the whole human oversight cannot be done away with. And isn't that ironic? That computers can outperform humans in various ways, yet ought not be without the oversight of those they can outperform? Perhaps it is that it is imperfect humans who build and program computers, and that we need other imperfect humans (what other kind are available?) to be on the lookout for imperfections built into computers and their programs. Those imperfections can crop up at the darndest times.

    Btw, did you know that books.google returns 'about 6,270 results' when searching for 19th century books which mention "internet"?

    We're told (in a manner of speaking) that "internet" is mentioned in, amongst others, a) The Travels of Marco Polo (written in 1845); b) The Anatomy of Melancholy (written in 1847); and, c) even an 1896 translation of The Metaphysics of Aristotle.

    How 'bout them apples?

    But if you go to the 47th page of results, suddenly there are only 'about 773 results', i.e., books written in the 19th century which mention "internet", and only two pages. Still, if you then go to the second page--walla!--now there's 'about 6,260 results', and again many more than two pages.

    Methinks there may be some worms in them thar apples.

    I submit two questions for your consideration:

    1) What do you think might be one of the things used by humans when working out the kinks, designing patches, and/or fixing bugs?

    2) What do you think might be one of the things used by humans when creating those things which have kinks in need of being worked out, which subsequently need to be patched, and/or are riddled with bugs in need of fixing or removal?

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  31. Here's a response to some earlier Dreyfusard criticism of Artificial Intelligence. Dreyfus gets ripped to shreds for his near-total ignorance of what he was talking about.

    A few shreds of Dreyfus' critiques were did hit the mark, unfortunately the combination of ignorance and hostility that infused his writings meant that he was basically ignored.

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  32. It stands to reason that, if for no other reason, he would be in the AI dog house who would suggest that there are Limits and Dangers of Calculative Rationality.

    Never mind.

    Here is Papert:

    Dreyfus makes three quite separate assertions about Artificial Intelligence:

    (1) There is a limit, somewhere, to what can in principle be achieved. The argument for this is very general and does not explicitly refer to experiments with computers. A typical example is: a human can respond to an indefinite number of situations; computers have a finite number of states; therefore, a human will sometimes deal with some situations better than any computer could.

    (2) There is a state of stagnation in Artificial Intelligence. The typical pattern is "early success followed by difficulties."

    (3) The boundary to what can be achieved in programming machines to play chess, recognize faces, translate languages, etc. is not very far beyond what has already been achieved. It "borders on self-delusion" to think otherwise.

    These three theses constantly interact in Dreyfus [sic] thinking and so in my discussion.


    Let's take the three theses in reverse order.

    (cont)

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  33. (3). The state of the art in the mentioned areas clearly shows that Dreyfus was wrong on this point. Nolo contendere.

    (2). Unthinking Machines
    Artificial intelligence needs a reboot, say experts.
    Stephen Cass
    Wednesday, May 4, 2011

    Some of the founders and leading lights in the fields of artificial intelligence and cognitive science gave a harsh assessment last night of the lack of progress in AI over the last few decades.

    During a panel discussion—moderated by linguist and cognitive scientist Steven Pinker—that kicked off MIT's Brains, Minds, and Machines symposium, panelists called for a return to the style of research that marked the early years of the field, one driven more by curiosity rather than narrow applications.

    "You might wonder why aren't there any robots that you can send in to fix the Japanese reactors," said Marvin Minsky, who pioneered neural networks in the 1950s and went on to make significant early advances in AI and robotics. "The answer is that there was a lot of progress in the 1960s and 1970s. Then something went wrong. [Today] you'll find students excited over robots that play basketball or soccer or dance or make funny faces at you. [But] they're not making them smarter."

    Patrick Winston, director of MIT's Artificial Intelligence Laboratory from 1972 to 1997, echoed Minsky. "Many people would protest the view that there's been no progress, but I don't think anyone would protest that there could have been more progress in the past 20 years. What went wrong went wrong in the '80s."

    Winston blamed the stagnation in part on the decline in funding after the end of the Cold War and on early attempts to commercialize AI. But the biggest culprit, he said, was the "mechanistic balkanization" of the field, with research focusing on ever-narrower specialties such as neural networks or genetic algorithms. "When you dedicate your conferences to mechanisms, there's a tendency to not work on fundamental problems, but rather [just] those problems that the mechanisms can deal with," said Winston...


    Dreyfus either was ahead of his time, or he got lucky. Either way, the pattern of "early success followed by difficulties" is, if not typical, then certainly not atypical. And, according to people who one would think might have some competent idea about the matter, AI indeed has been in a state of stagnation for nearly four decades. As already said, Dreyfus either was ahead of his time, or he got lucky.

    (1). Since whether in principle there will come a time when no human will be able to do anything better than a computer is a question whose answer has yet to be conclusively settled, it cannot be said with unimpeachable certainty that Dreyfus was wrong. Was there anyone back then, is there anyone today, or was there anyone during the intervening period, who would deny that humans "will sometimes deal with some situations better than any computer could"? I don't know what Dreyfus' reasoning was on this point, and it indeed may have been poor (perhaps Papert mentioned what it is; but I've not read his paper in its entirety). But however arrived at, how could any rational person seriously deny the conclusion (and expect to be taken seriously)?

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  34. Excerpted from Dreyfus' Alchemy and Artifical Intelligence, the 1965 paper "infused" with the "combination of ignorance and hostility" which led to his being "basically ignored":

    - - - - -

    It is fitting to begin with a statement made in 1957 by H. A. Simon, one of the originators of the field of artificial intelligence:

    It is not my aim to surprise or shock you--if indeed that were possible in an age of nuclear fission and prospective interplanetary travel. But the simplest way I can summarize is to say that there are now in the world machines that think, that learn and that create. Moreover, their ability to do these things is going to increase rapidly until--in a visible future--the range of problems they can handle will be co-extensive with the range to which the human mind has been applied. The speaker makes the following predictions:

    1) That within ten years a digital computerwill be the world's chess champion, unless the rules bar it from competition.

    2) That within ten years a digital computerwill discover and prove an important new mathematical theorem.

    3) That within ten years a digital computer will write music that will be accepted by critics as possessing considerable aesthetic value.

    4) That within ten years most theories in psychology will take the form of computer programs, or of qualitative statements about the characteristics of computer programs.


    Let us hope that in November l967, the tenth anniversary of this historic talk, workers in the field of artificial intelligence will meet to measure their vision against reality. Meanwhile, though it is too early to definitely test these claims, enough time has elapsed to allow a significant confrontation of these predictions with actual progress in the field.

    Recent publications suggest that the first of Simon's forecasts has already been half-realized and that considerable progress has been made in fulfilling his second prediction. In a review of Feigenbaurn and Feldman's anthology, Computers and Thought, W. R. Ashby (one of the leading authorities in the field) hailed the mathematical power of the properly programmed computer: "Gelernter's theorem-proving program has discovered a new proof of the pons asinorum that demands no construction." This proof, Professor Ashby goes on to say, is one which "the greatest mathematicians of 2000 years have failed to notice... which would have evoked the highest praise had it occurred".

    The theorem sounds important and the naive reader cannot help sharing Ashby's enthusiasm. A little research, however, reveals that the pons asinorum, or ass's bridge, is the first theorem to be proved in Euclidian geometry, viz., that the opposite angles of an isosceles triangle are equal. Moreover, the proof requiring the construction of a perpendicular to the base of the triangle (still taught in high schools) was introduced as late as the 19th century, presumably as a pedagogical device. The first announcement of the "new" proof "discovered" by the machine is attributed to Pappus (300 A_D.). There is a striking disparity between Ashby's excitement and the antiquity and triviality of this proof. We are still a long way from "the important mathematical theorem" to be found by 1967....

    - - - - -

    Dreyfus' philosophical training enable him to see through the BS, and so he popped some bubbles. Good for him.

    It is understandable, however, that people got peeved--few people enjoy having their grandiosity dissipated (especially by the truth).

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  35. Touchstone: If we can't agree what "natural" means in an general, intersubjective way, as a matter of convention and practice over centuries, than all of this is moot, it's a free for all. Everyone else's paranormal intuitions are out of binds, but mine aren't by definition, in that case.

    I don't understand what you're getting at, but it's not really a problem that terminology can vary in different contexts — as long as we take some care to keep the context straight. The Scholastic and Ancient sense of "nature" was around long before the modern usage, but perhaps the modern meaning can be useful in other contexts. However, if the discussion is about Thomistic positions, then for people here to insist on clarifying and using that meaning is hardly hypocritical; in fact, it is a requirement if we are not merely to descend to name-calling.


    Alas, Blogspot appears to be rather stupid about links, especially on pages not the first, but the URL should be http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/08/rediscovering-human-beings.html?commentPage=2#c6013185566977945197


    We don't know the actual pathways that obtained, or may have obtained, so we calculate what we suppose might be the probabilities of a "random deal of the deck". And because those probabilities are astronomically high, and we don't have other concrete pathways to test, ergo ID.

    For the sake of argument, let's simply assume that Behe and co. would accept your paraphrases as faithful and accurate representations of their positions. The original bad argument you presented was, "We can't imagine how some process happened, therefore it's not possible". But what you've attributed to them is, "Such-and-such a process did happen, and we can imagine how this happened, and according to my calculations it was exceedingly unlikely." The calculations may be wrong, the imagined pathways may even be wrong, but those are empirical matters for science to figure out; the argument itself is not the silly one you first claimed.

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  36. @Glenn

    OK, so on (3) you agree. On point (2), yes, as I already mentioned, AI did need some philosophical shaking up and Dreyfus' points were not without some merit, but he expressed them so poorly that he didn't really have that much influence. He framed his critique as "what computers can't do", rather than the more accurate but less attention-grabbing "what our current computational models of thinking fail to capture". Here is the latest from Dreyfus which covers some of the eventual uptake of ideas similar to his in AI, and is actually fairly reasonable.

    Which leads to the point (1), the theoretical question of whether it is in principle possible to build a human-equivalent computational intelligence. It is true this is not settled. But metaphysical arguments (the kind that play on constant repeat here) cut no ice with scientists. They will keep trying to build it, and either they will succeed eventually or they won't. But one point that is often missed -- they won't be held back by philosophical theory. That is, let's say some philosopher proves that Turing machines can't be intelligent. Well, Turing machines are a very powerful theorietical model of computation, but they do not impose a limit on people trying to build actual machines. And in fact, if you look at recent strands of AI, they are trying to get around certain limitations of the Turing model, for instance by emphasizing "situated" or "embedded" cognition and building robots with rich connections to their environment.

    It is an open question how much philosophy can help this project, and whether the right approach from philosophers is hostile (Dreyfus) or friendly (Dennett).

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  37. Looks like Touchstone left for good this time.

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  38. Gip,

    He framed his critique as "what computers can't do", rather than the more accurate but less attention-grabbing "what our current computational models of thinking fail to capture".

    Grandiose claims as to "what computers can do" were being made--why would "what computers can't do" not be a legitimate response?

    AIers were looking for headlines (such helps with the procurement of funding ("the squeaky wheel gets the oil")), and when they said, in effect, "here is what our current computational models of thinking succeed in capturing", they didn't just misstate the actuality reality of the matter, they grossly overstated it (and refused to hear otherwise to boot).

    It is an open question how much philosophy can help this project, and whether the right approach from philosophers is hostile (Dreyfus) or friendly (Dennett).

    Dreyfus' "hostility" was partly fueled by the grandiosity of the claims, yes, but even more so by the fact that some if not many of the grandiose claims were in fact blatant falsehoods.

    When, e.g., a leading authority in the field claims that a computer has "discovered a new proof..." which "the greatest mathematicians of 2000 years have failed to notice", and the truth is that this "new" proof is currently taught in high schools, and was first noted nearly 2000 years ago, the temptation to laugh and scoff is strong.

    Given the enormity of the disconnect between the claims and the actual reality, and given the alarming lack of intellectual honesty, integrity and rigor regarding this disconnect, I don't think it unreasonable to say that Dreyfus, relative to the provocation, exercised restraint in his taking the field and its practitioners to task.

    (This isn't to deny that Dreyfus may have gone overboard at times, or even that he was never wrong; just that--on the whole, and with all things considered--I don't think it unreasonable to take the position that he exercised restraint when making his critiques.)

    And I find it alarming that scientists would equate amiability (Dennett) with what is likely to be true, and intensity (Dreyfus) with what is likely to be false.

    While amiability and intensity can influence and sway, pursuers of 'objective' truth are expected to have more than an average immunity to such seductions; if they do not, then 'subjective' truth is readily mistaken for 'objective' truth, i.e., 'truth' itself is ostensibly redefined as being mainly whatever is pleasing to the receiver or has been pleasantly presented.

    (cont)

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  39. And in fact, if you look at recent strands of AI, they are trying to get around certain limitations of the Turing model, for instance by emphasizing "situated" or "embedded" cognition and building robots with rich connections to their environment.

    High time, one might say.

    "...the task that faced Turing was the design of systems which could quickly and efficiently carry out highly repetitive computational tasks, and he was employed to do this because humans could not carry out such tasks in a fast and reliable manner, even when given extensive training and very precise instructions. The Turing model is actually an extremely useful and powerful model of what humans cannot naturally do[.]" -- Dennett's views on computers and the brain

    It is true this is not settled. But metaphysical arguments (the kind that play on constant repeat here) cut no ice with scientists. They will keep trying to build it, and either they will succeed eventually or they won't. But one point that is often missed -- they won't be held back by philosophical theory.

    The bringing of philosophical theory to the problem of AI is not for the purpose of holding back efforts, but as a kind of steering mechanism--possibly less for suggesting which directions may be useful, and likely more for noting which directions likely are not worth pursuing.

    And however much metaphysical arguments may not cut ice with scientists, the fact remains that scientists have come around to seeing the wisdom of several of those arguments previously advanced but rejected. Had the amiability/intensity distinction, or something like it, not been employed as a criterion for what might be true or useful, the scientists might have spared themselves a few decades of stagnation.

    As for scientists continuing to their efforts in trying to "build it", hey, go for it. There isn't anything wrong with research and development therefrom per se; we never know with certainty might result (if we did, it certainly wouldn't be called 'research').

    The claims, however, as to what has been done, what is being done, and what can be expected to be achieved, ought to be kept reasonably close to what the actual reality of the matter is.

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  40. @Glenn -- well, oddly, I don't find myself much in disagreement with you. Early AI researchers did exhibit some drastically overconfidence; some philosophy has been helpful in backing off from their early simplistic approaches and trying different ones.

    And I find it alarming that scientists would equate amiability (Dennett) with what is likely to be true, and intensity (Dreyfus) with what is likely to be false.

    Well, that is an extremely confused rewording of the point. I'm not concerned with personal styles; the fact is that Dennett is generally sympathetic to AI and cognitive science while Dreyfus is hostile. That doesn't make either of them necessarily right, and it may be the case that the fields have more to learn from critics than friends. The only point about tone (and I'm not going to discuss it further, because it is really secondary) is that Dreyfus's hostility led him to make some stupid claims and personal attacks, which made it easier to ignore whatever constructive critiques he had.

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  41. @Glenn -- well, oddly, I don't find myself much in disagreement with you.

    This may be because you recognize the 'truth'--which really means it is the 'truth' that you don't find yourself much in disagreement with. Which certainly is good (and hasn't anything to do with me (other than that I gave voice to what is independent of myself)).

    Well, that is an extremely confused rewording of the point. I'm not concerned with personal styles; the fact is that Dennett is generally sympathetic to AI and cognitive science while Dreyfus is hostile.

    You are not concerned with personal styles--it's just that Dennett's personal style of being 'sympathetic' is preferable to Dreyfus' personal style of being 'hostile'? Hmm.

    But let's say, okay, it isn't tone that seduces, but sympathy. This still gets to the nub of it, does it not? Scientists wooed, in a manner of speaking, by the whisperings of sweet nothings in the ear. Given this, there would be little wonder that some scientists may find it additionally difficult to live up to the ideal of being 'objective'.

    ...which made it easier to ignore whatever constructive critiques he had.

    The use of 'easier' suggests that they had other reasons for ignoring him. Such as, perhaps, "He's not on board with the program, so don't listen to whatever he might have to say. Keep those blinders on, men, and the earplugs snug. And let's thank God, so to speak, that he has provided us with a convenient excuse for ignoring him."

    Anyway, I don't really mean to belabor any of the points. And I do thank you for the recent links.

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  42. Touchstone,

    Give me an example of the kind of contradiction you are talking about and we'll look at it.

    Why not use one that has recently come to light?

    Here you are @August 20, 2012 2:09 PM (in Rediscovering Human Beings): Hofstadter points out the problems, the path to strong AI. But this criticism and guidance is given BECAUSE there remain no fundamental problems known...

    Here is John McCarthy (co-founder of AI) answering a question back in 2001:

    Q. Aren't computability theory and computational complexity the keys to AI? [Note to the layman and beginners in computer science: These are quite technical branches of mathematical logic and computer science, and the answer to the question has to be somewhat technical.]

    A. No. These theories are relevant but don't address the fundamental problems of AI.


    (Well, that's hardly "somewhat techinical". If you want something that is "somewhat technical", the continuation of McCarthy's answer can be found on page 7 here.)

    But that was in 2001, more than ten years ago. How about something a little more recent--from, say, last year (2011)?

    Patrick Winston, director of MIT's Artificial Intelligence Laboratory from 1972 to 1997 (already quoted above): When you dedicate your conferences to mechanisms, there's a tendency to not work on fundamental problems, but rather [just] those problems that the mechanisms can deal with.

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  43. Rank:

    Just regarding Derrida, I don’t think that he made the radical claims that you are ascribing to him. He was against the view that meaning is fully present to consciousness, and he offered a number of philosophical reasons for this position, including the fact that all meaning, including fully present meaning, necessarily involves iterability and repeatability, which also means that all texts are open to radical reinterpretation in different contexts and situations. Thus, a necessary condition of a fixed meaning, i.e. its iterability, also makes fixed meaning impossible. This would be an example of a “quasi-transcendental” condition. So, what you fix as the meaning of a text in your mind is not the final word of the matter, even though you have that meaning present in a determinate fashion to your mind. So, Derrida endorses determinate meaning at a particular time for a particular person, but denies that it carries authority as the final meaning that is fixed for all time, because of the temporal and contextual aspects of language.

    So, I think that your argument with Touchstone can continue, but I don’t think that Derrida is necessarily involved, except tangentially.

    Furthermore, what I find fascinating about Derrida is his ability to zone in to concepts that are both impossible and necessary within certain systems. For example, he analyzes Plato’s khora as neither a sensible particular nor a universal form, and is neither real nor unreal, but that which Plato calls “hardly real” (Timaeus 52b). It is like prime matter, which is both necessary in order for act/potency to make sense at all, and yet is impossible within that framework, because all potency depends upon act, and prime matter has no act whatsoever, and yet it must exist in some sense. Another example would be how the human soul is the substantial form of the body, which is just the essence of humanity, and yet it somehow can remain the particular form of a specific person even independent of the matter, which is supposed to be the principle of individuation. And it is important to focus upon these loose threads, because they undermine the integrity of the System in question, largely because they are both inside and outside the system at the same time, which is a fascinating place to be.

    Anyway, just wanted to share these thoughts. Back to Wippel.

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  44. Just regarding Derrida, I don’t think that he made the radical claims that you are ascribing to him. He was against the view that meaning is fully present to consciousness, and he offered a number of philosophical reasons for this position, including the fact that all meaning, including fully present meaning, necessarily involves iterability and repeatability, which also means that all texts are open to radical reinterpretation in different contexts and situations. Thus, a necessary condition of a fixed meaning, i.e. its iterability, also makes fixed meaning impossible.

    Actually, it has nothing to do with iterability, and there is no such thing as something "fully present". Derrida's concept of différance guarantees that nothing can be fully present even to itself: everything is "always already" (his favorite phrase) violated by the trace--the absence of a presence. All "writing" (that is, representation) is inherently historical and semiotically connected to all other writing, and so nothing can ever be self-present. That which is "present" is always deferring its meaning to things that are not present, whether they be in history or in other words and ideas. (As an example, a spoken sign defers to a mental sign, which defers to a visual sign, which defers to a spoken sign, on and on.)

    But nothing in this web is self-present, and so the deferring never ends. He locates an origin for this madness in différance itself, which is a force of utter nothingness. The origin of everything is a non-origin. As a result, the origin of "meaning" is non-meaning. All "meaning" is illusory and relative: something false that we posit simply because we have no other choice. Our only option is to expose the infinite relative and historical meanings inherent to writing, and to undermine steady ideas, binary oppositions, logic, "presence" and so on. This is the purpose of deconstruction.

    So, what you fix as the meaning of a text in your mind is not the final word of the matter, even though you have that meaning present in a determinate fashion to your mind. So, Derrida endorses determinate meaning at a particular time for a particular person, but denies that it carries authority as the final meaning that is fixed for all time, because of the temporal and contextual aspects of language.

    For Derrida, all thought is based on signs that connect to other signs. Thought is not prior to signs: it is composed of them. All of our ideas are just as historical and relative as a dictionary definition. They have no fixed meanings whatsoever, nor any determinate content. The idea of "determinate content", in fact, has always already been invaded by the trace, and so it cannot be pinned down. It's always already deconstructing its own meaning.

    I've done a decent bit of reading about Derrida, so I'm not speaking out of ignorance, here. You seem to be a bit of a post-modern scholar yourself, given your comments in an earlier thread about the metaphysics of presence.

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  45. Further, Derrida says that "writing" is all that exists. There is nothing aside from writing. Dallas Willard has called this a "Midas touch" philosophy: anything that is known (represented) automatically changes kind. (http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=51.)

    As Derrida says in Of Grammatology:

    "What we have tried to show by following the guiding line of the 'dangerous supplement,' is that in what one calls the real life of these existences 'of flesh and bone,' beyond and behind what one believes can be circumscribed as Rousseau’s text, there has never been anything but writing; there have never been anything but supplements, substitutive significations which could only come forth in a chain of differential references, the 'real' supervening, and being added only while taking on meaning from a trace and from an invocation of the supplement, etc. And thus to infinity, for we have read, in the text, that the absolute present, Nature, that which words like 'real mother' name, have always already escaped, have never existed; that what opens meaning and language is writing as disappearance of natural presence."

    Concrete "presences" like "Nature" are illusions, always already invaded by the trace, always already absent. Everything is text: nothing escapes.

    Derrida does indeed endorse the extreme positions I was attributing him. He's one of the most disturbingly crazy philosophers who's ever lived.

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  46. Rank:

    I have more to say tomorrow, but just wanted to quote Derrida:

    "I repeat that Sec (dg: Signature Event Context) never adduced, from the possibility of this 'break', the pure and simple absence of all intentionality in the functioning of the mark that remains; rather, what it calls into question is the presence of a fulfilled and actualized intentionality, adequate to itself and to its contents" (Limited Inc., p. 64).

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  47. dguller,

    Derrida agrees (in that same work?) that there is no such thing as "pure absence", so that's not too surprising. Nothing is ever wholly absent or present: not even intentionality itself. Intentionality is not beyond the text, but is merely more writing. That fits perfectly with what I was saying. Every intention has already been violated by the trace, and so the intention itself is indeterminate and open to question.

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  48. Rank:

    But nothing in this web is self-present, and so the deferring never ends. He locates an origin for this madness in différance itself, which is a force of utter nothingness. The origin of everything is a non-origin. As a result, the origin of "meaning" is non-meaning. All "meaning" is illusory and relative: something false that we posit simply because we have no other choice. Our only option is to expose the infinite relative and historical meanings inherent to writing, and to undermine steady ideas, binary oppositions, logic, "presence" and so on. This is the purpose of deconstruction.

    Like I said, it does not follow from any of this that there is no intentionality that determines meaning. If you are looking for a fixed meaning that is fully present to consciousness, then you will never find it, and perhaps will view any other kind of meaning as “illusory” and “false”. However, that confuses impermanence with illusion and falsehood, which I think is debatable.

    I’ll quote Caputo on Derrida:

    “Deconstruction – as usual – situates itself in the distance between these two [i.e. Husserlian univocality and Joycean equivocality]. It does not renounce the constitution of meaning and the transmission of scientific ideas, even while it inscribes ideality in the flux of writing, for the sphere of ideal meaning is always and already forged from below, as an effect of the play of traces. Deconstruction is a certain Husserlianism, a theory of the constitution of meaning and ideality, but one that is always already exposed to a certain Joyceanism, to the irrepressible anarchy of signifiers, the unmasterable, anarchic event of archi-ecriture. For textuality or ecriture sees to it that we are at best able to put together certain unstable and contingent unities of “meaning”, certain effects of the differential play of traces that, with a lick and a promise, may get us through the day, that are only as good as the work they do and only for the while that they do it, before they give way to more felicitous effects and more successful convergences, before they are taken up not into “higher” but into different and more felicitous configurations” (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, p. 183).

    More tomorrow.

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  49. dguller,

    Such a state of affairs necessarily undermines scientific certainty, as well as any philosophy--like computationalism--based on it. It also undermines itself, because everything that led Derrida to claim the existence of deconstruction must also be called into question. In the end, Derrida's own project is personal, relative and indeterminate, and so must be discarded as irrelevant.

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  50. Rank:

    Such a state of affairs necessarily undermines scientific certainty, as well as any philosophy--like computationalism--based on it. It also undermines itself, because everything that led Derrida to claim the existence of deconstruction must also be called into question. In the end, Derrida's own project is personal, relative and indeterminate, and so must be discarded as irrelevant.

    First, it certainly undermines a great deal of certainty, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Does anyone have the final word on anything? Is there any piece of knowledge that we have at this time that cannot possibly be challenged or rejected in the future? After all, how many revolutions in human thought have occurred throughout the centuries? Isn’t it likely that more are to come, including those that we cannot even see coming?

    Second, you still seem to not be getting Derrida’s point, which is that an autonomous individual does not consciously invent language that remains fixed and permanent in its meaning forever. Language is partly under their control, but it is even more out of their control, because they do not know who else will use their terms and redefine them in different contexts at different times and places. What he is attacking is a metaphysics of presence, as we talked about before, which is the idea that an autonomous conscious subject is fully aware and has fully present to his conscious awareness the final and permanent meaning of a term. And if this is not happening, then what is happening? Well, there is intentionality, which he accepts, but there is also the community of language users, and the variety of contexts, that delimit and restrict meaning, but it never happens permanently and fixed forever, because language is slippery over time. In many ways, it is like Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy. A term is not univocal forever, nor equivocal forever, but a sort of in-between, i.e. carries determinate content for a chunk of space-time, which can change at different space-time chunks.

    Third, you are also excluding his important point that all systems are undermined at some point. He mentioned Plato’s use of khora, and I mentioned Aristotle’s prime matter. Both of these concepts are impossible within their systems, and yet they are also necessary for their systems to be possible at all. Do these inconsistencies undermine the determinate content of propositions of those systems? Can you meaningfully use terms that come from an inconsistent system of thought? Isn’t it supposed to come crashing down, because it lacks the foundational strength of consistency? Furthermore, these concept show what it is like to be both inside and outside a system at the same time, which is where Derrida's work also occurs, i.e. seeking the transcendental conditions of language, but also saying that this is impossible.

    Fourth, I think that his project to help us remain humble and see our limitations and the limitations of our language and knowledge is important. I have thought it helpful to believe that we have knowledge and truth, but not Knowledge(TM) and Truth(TM). We have to make due with more humble tools and assets, which is actually just fine.

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  51. Rank:

    And just one more thing.

    It is not just Platonic and Aristotelian systems that have such aporias. Even physicalism is supposed to choke upon consciousness, for example, in principle being unable to account for it on purely physicalist terms. Consciousness is both impossible, according to physicalist principles, and yet necessary in order for us to even have physical principles at all. So, Derrida’s contention would be that all systems have such fragments or supplements that simply to not fit within the system, and yet rather than be peripheral oddities, they are actually central to the system itself, which creates an intrinsic tension that always threatens to unravel the whole fabric. And even if they are peripheral oddities, then the fact that they cannot be assimilated and absorbed by the system means that the system is necessarily incomplete, and which means that the system, which is supposed to make all of reality fully present to the consciousness that is thinking about the system, necessarily has an absence within itself, compromising its status as fully present.

    Again, I don’t think that this is contradictory, but rather nicely describes what we all already know, which is that our knowledge is always going to be incomplete, have unassimilated fragments of data, and so on. As such, we should be open to the Other, i.e. the unexpected future manifestation of something outside of the system that we hold so dear, because our system has holes in it that we are simply unable to fill on the basis of our current understanding.

    And with regards to semiotics and meaning, he does not deny that intentionality is involved in meaning, but only that a single individual’s conscious awareness is not sufficient to fully determine meaning in a fixed and permanent fashion. Why? Because language is bigger than any single individual’s consciousness, and includes their unconscious, and members of the wider linguistic community, as well as the infinite variety of different contexts that are possible to determine meaning, and all of these are absent from an individual’s consciousness, and thus constitute a space or opening where difference can occur. And that is all that differance is supposed to be, i.e. the absences in presence that cause openings and spaces for different meanings to occur, even meanings that were never even considered by the person originally coining the term.

    Finally, as for his statement that there is nothing outside the text, what he actually meant was that there is no meaning outside the context. In other words, there is no way to determine meaning without taking the context of the statement into consideration, and since we cannot predict or consider all possible contexts, we cannot predict or consider all possible meanings, which leaves it an open-ended affair. Again, that does not mean that meaning has no determinate content in the sense that when you and I say “dog”, we both cannot mean the same thing. We obviously can have the same sense and referent after all. However, we can also have different senses, because I know more about dogs than you do, or we can have different referents due to changing connotations (e.g. “dog” meaning an unfaithful boyfriend, an unscrupulous individual, etc). And those possibilities are present when you and I use the word “dog”, as absences that are not present to our awareness (i.e. as potential being would be).

    So, I don’t think that your argument that because Derrida claims that meanings are not permanently fixed for all time, then he necessarily implies that meanings are indeterminate and vague. Clearly, you can assert that meanings change and yet remain stable enough for a sufficient period of time for linguistic communication to be possible, and furthermore, that even during that period of stability, there are different meanings possible that exist outside of the linguistic users awareness until someone discovers them and introduces them into the linguistic community, and thus compromise that meaning’s promise of eternal stability.

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  52. Second, you still seem to not be getting Derrida’s point, which is that an autonomous individual does not consciously invent language that remains fixed and permanent in its meaning forever. Language is partly under their control, but it is even more out of their control, because they do not know who else will use their terms and redefine them in different contexts at different times and places. What he is attacking is a metaphysics of presence, as we talked about before, which is the idea that an autonomous conscious subject is fully aware and has fully present to his conscious awareness the final and permanent meaning of a term.

    That isn't a good definition of the metaphysics of presence. The metaphysics of presence is Heidegger's term for the failed philosophy since Plato, which attempted to described reality in terms of the fully-present--such as Plato's forms. However, Heidegger wrote that an understanding of Being must be historical and temporal in nature, and as such cannot ever be fully present. Historicality always prevents this.

    Derrida tries to apply this idea to "writing"--his word for representation--which is essentially a broken version of Saussure's semiotics: signifiers have no referents/signifieds aside from other signifiers. He declares that all representation, all language, all writing is historical. One of his favorite methods for showing this is digging around root words to show the contradictions inherent in all "meaning" and "presence". "Presence" can only exist when attached to history, and that history is one of contradictions, absence and absurdity. As a result, the metaphysics of presence is an illusion: a game concocted to silence history by violence.

    Well, there is intentionality, which he accepts, but there is also the community of language users, and the variety of contexts, that delimit and restrict meaning, but it never happens permanently and fixed forever, because language is slippery over time. In many ways, it is like Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy. A term is not univocal forever, nor equivocal forever, but a sort of in-between, i.e. carries determinate content for a chunk of space-time, which can change at different space-time chunks.

    It's nothing like the analogia entis--trust me.

    What Derrida is saying is that any representation or set of representations is utterly relative. This is the direct result of his semiotic theory ("grammatology"), in which all is "text" connected by "traces". Any attempt to demarcate a text is doomed to fail, because that text has always already been attacked by the trace, which connects it to the whole totality of the wide text. Meaning is an illusion brought on by a forgetfulness of historicality. His solution is to deconstruct everything, undermining the metaphysics of presence by making every pathway, interpretation, contradiction, history and so forth known.

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  53. Third, you are also excluding his important point that all systems are undermined at some point.

    This does not save his own system. It amounts to what's sometimes called the "truth that there are no truths". You have to make a fully present, unchanging account of things (a metanarrative) before you can criticize anything else. Derrida decides that his metanarrative is semiotics. But if this theory itself is deconstructed, then we enter a logical loop:

    1. Deconstruction shows all writing to be relative.
    2. Derrida's semiology is writing.
    3. Therefore, deconstruction shows Derida's semiology to be relative.

    It's very simple. He often tries to make a place for the trace, differance and such "before language" and "outside of history". In fact, he claims, they are the very possibility of history. But this simply begs the question against competing theories. Derrida's semiology is only one possibility, itself in a rivalry with one that takes intentionality as its basis. Derrida places writing ("arche-writing") before intentionality: writing is the very possibility of intentionality. This, again, simply begs the question.

    He mentioned Plato’s use of khora, and I mentioned Aristotle’s prime matter. Both of these concepts are impossible within their systems, and yet they are also necessary for their systems to be possible at all.

    Perhaps that's so. No such things occur inside of Aquinas's philosophy, though--so I have nothing to worry about.

    Fourth, I think that his project to help us remain humble and see our limitations and the limitations of our language and knowledge is important. I have thought it helpful to believe that we have knowledge and truth, but not Knowledge(TM) and Truth(TM). We have to make due with more humble tools and assets, which is actually just fine.

    His project reduces his project to irrelevance. Isn't this much obvious? If his project is true, then his project is relative and personal.

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  54. It is not just Platonic and Aristotelian systems that have such aporias. Even physicalism is supposed to choke upon consciousness, for example, in principle being unable to account for it on purely physicalist terms. Consciousness is both impossible, according to physicalist principles, and yet necessary in order for us to even have physical principles at all. So, Derrida’s contention would be that all systems have such fragments or supplements that simply to not fit within the system, and yet rather than be peripheral oddities, they are actually central to the system itself, which creates an intrinsic tension that always threatens to unravel the whole fabric. And even if they are peripheral oddities, then the fact that they cannot be assimilated and absorbed by the system means that the system is necessarily incomplete, and which means that the system, which is supposed to make all of reality fully present to the consciousness that is thinking about the system, necessarily has an absence within itself, compromising its status as fully present.

    All this tells us is that such systems are ultimately incoherent and self-undermining. The history of philosophy has seen countless such systems. All this means is that we need a better one.

    Again, I don’t think that this is contradictory, but rather nicely describes what we all already know, which is that our knowledge is always going to be incomplete, have unassimilated fragments of data, and so on. As such, we should be open to the Other, i.e. the unexpected future manifestation of something outside of the system that we hold so dear, because our system has holes in it that we are simply unable to fill on the basis of our current understanding.

    The Other is Derrida's term for that which is outside of representation. This is where Derrida's debts to Levinas and Kant become clear. The Other is an impossibility: we cannot know it, because knowing it reduces it to a representation. Knowing reduces the Other to the "Same". The Other cannot ever be present, for to be present is to be reduced to Same. As a result, the Other is always just out of reach, always about to arrive--but it can never appear.

    So it can't be the case that the Other is an "unexpected future manifestation": if it manifests, then it ceases to be Other.

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  55. And with regards to semiotics and meaning, he does not deny that intentionality is involved in meaning, but only that a single individual’s conscious awareness is not sufficient to fully determine meaning in a fixed and permanent fashion. Why? Because language is bigger than any single individual’s consciousness, and includes their unconscious, and members of the wider linguistic community, as well as the infinite variety of different contexts that are possible to determine meaning, and all of these are absent from an individual’s consciousness, and thus constitute a space or opening where difference can occur.

    Even if something was fully present, it would be a disaster of contradiction and absurdity with no certain meaning. It doesn't have to do, necessarily, with someone's knowledge at the time of representation, but rather with the impossibility of total presence as such.

    And that is all that differance is supposed to be, i.e. the absences in presence that cause openings and spaces for different meanings to occur, even meanings that were never even considered by the person originally coining the term.

    Well, that's typically what Derrida calls the trace. Differance also includes the "differing" aspect, which brings in his ideas of violence. Differance is differing and deferring: it is the trace of absence and the impassible space that violently separates differences.

    Finally, as for his statement that there is nothing outside the text, what he actually meant was that there is no meaning outside the context. In other words, there is no way to determine meaning without taking the context of the statement into consideration, and since we cannot predict or consider all possible contexts, we cannot predict or consider all possible meanings, which leaves it an open-ended affair.

    I'm aware of this. I know that some people get confused by the hors-texte issue, but I've done my research here. The text is the totality of representation as invaded by differance: by the trace and difference. It's impossible to get beyond the context of particular historicality, impossible to get beyond relativity to other contingencies. As a result, all writing is personal and wholly relative.

    Again, that does not mean that meaning has no determinate content in the sense that when you and I say “dog”, we both cannot mean the same thing. We obviously can have the same sense and referent after all.

    That's impossible. Referents are only more signifiers: not "actual things", which don't exist. And these further signifiers gain their "meaning" through their differences from and their deferral to other signifiers, on and on. We cannot ever mean the same thing because neither of us means anything in the first place.

    So, I don’t think that your argument that because Derrida claims that meanings are not permanently fixed for all time, then he necessarily implies that meanings are indeterminate and vague. Clearly, you can assert that meanings change and yet remain stable enough for a sufficient period of time for linguistic communication to be possible, and furthermore, that even during that period of stability, there are different meanings possible that exist outside of the linguistic users awareness until someone discovers them and introduces them into the linguistic community, and thus compromise that meaning’s promise of eternal stability.

    Derrida's system guarantees that stability is impossible. That's the whole point of deconstruction: to destabilize everything, forever.

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  56. Well, if nothing else this conversation has given me an appreciation for Derrida. Never had much use for that trendy French stuff, but if Mr. Sophist hates it that much there must be something worthwhile there. And I'm only partly joking. All this presence/absence stuff seemed like unadulterated nonsense to me when I have encountered it previously, but I think I may now at least understand what people who use that terminology are trying to get at.

    The entirety of Sophist's attack (and the same goes for many others here in many other endless comment threads) comes down to an accusation of destructive reflexivity: if Derrida shows that all representations are subjective then his own theory must also be subjective, so hah-hah. He seems very proud of this devastating argument. I haven't read enough Derrida to know myself, but it seems extremely unlikely that he has not anticipated and folded that sort of thing into his own philosophy -- postmodernism is nothing if not agonizingly self-reflective.

    I'd be curious to see what he has to say, but my own crude answer is: yes, all representations are imperfect, rooted in subjectivity, subject to interpretation, misinterpretation, politics, other such indignities. Deal with it. But, of course, biology and culture have been dealing with it for a very long time, which is why our representations are as good as they are.

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  57. The entirety of Sophist's attack (and the same goes for many others here in many other endless comment threads) comes down to an accusation of destructive reflexivity: if Derrida shows that all representations are subjective then his own theory must also be subjective, so hah-hah. He seems very proud of this devastating argument. I haven't read enough Derrida to know myself, but it seems extremely unlikely that he has not anticipated and folded that sort of thing into his own philosophy -- postmodernism is nothing if not agonizingly self-reflective.

    Of course he saw it coming, GIP. That's why he wrote gibberish and changed the names for his ideas in every book. It didn't work. He never got around this core flaw. All of post-modernism is stuck in it. It's the "metanarrative that there are no metanarratives". There's no way out of it.

    This is why analytic philosophers like Searle don't take post-modernism seriously.

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  58. @Glenn,

    One evening at a cocktail party, after this standard answer to the customary question, an unusual thing happened. Instead of thanking Stuart and moving on to something else more comprehensible, a listener innocently asked, "Oh, and is this the way you decide when to replace your car?"

    "Of course not," Stuart replied without hesitation. "That was only an example of how to use the formal procedure. Buying a new car is for me much too important to be left to a mathematical model. I mull it over a while, and buy a new car when it feels right."

    The next morning Stuart began to reflect upon what had happened. How could he tell generals, businessmen, and policy-makers that they should use a decision-making technique that he himself wouldn't use in his own personal life? Why did he trust his feelings rather than his formal car replacement model?

    Thanks, I've read lots of stories similar to this, and share similar convictions myself. What Dreyfus is pointing at, I suggest -- and this is somewhere Dennett would join him, and which from my own limited forays into machine learning I've come understand well -- is that "optimizing for costs" in the mode of the plan for car parts replacement vastly under-describes the design criteria, as we would apply to human thinking. Human can do math and apply logic, but they also think through and by their emotions.

    If Joe writes down all the constraints and goals for buying a new car, he may include a wide range of costs (not just purchase price, but cost of insurance, maintenance costs, etc.), and assemble a large grid of constraints to optimize for the purchase. But if Joe *really* wants a car that satisfies some demands for his ego -- maybe something a little flamboyant *because* it's flamboyant, a fast, red convertible to soothe some mid-life-crisis anxieties -- those design goals are not likely to show up on the design plan. Not just because it's difficult to quantify and solve for that goal, but because it's awkward and potentially quite embarrassing to enumerate, as it looks like a conceit, or at least a "non-functional" goal.

    But that is how humans operate. Their passions and emotions and instincts and interactions (even ones that are not so emotionally biased or visceral) with other decisions make a "human-like" recipe for thinking about such subjects EXTREMELY complex.

    And this has been an inflection point for strong AI, reached some decades ago. As I mentioned back a ways, machines thinking like humans will have to be humanoid for any kind of satisfactory similarities. That's not just a requirement for a mind-boggling explosion of software resources needed to even get to rudimentary approximations of humanoid computing resources (forget about the trillions of neurons in the brain, you need to all the nerve networking nodes for the whole body), it's a stupefying task in hardware engineering; all of that computing machinery has to be integrated into a sensory framework that at least somewhat mimics that of humans.

    That pretty much puts a long term bummer on Strong AI. Not because of any insuperable conceptual obstacles - the hypothesis here being that Dreyfus simply was not aware of all the physical factors that actually contribute to his decision to buy this car over that, and that if those could be incorporated, you'd have a "Dreyfus-like" response system; rather, because the practical task of building software and hardware systems that begin to approach the scale and complexity of humans is extremely daunting, prohibitive expensive, and mechanically out of reach for some time in to the future.

    If you don't incorporate the whole package, we've come to understand, you're not going to get "human-like" thinking. And the scale and complexity of doing that are such that we will wait decades more before we get platforms that can approach this goal.

    -TS

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  59. @Glenn


    Yes, things have progressed considerably since then, and computers today are better able to guide decision making. But though there are notable examples to the contrary, on the whole human oversight cannot be done away with. And isn't that ironic? That computers can outperform humans in various ways, yet ought not be without the oversight of those they can outperform? Perhaps it is that it is imperfect humans who build and program computers, and that we need other imperfect humans (what other kind are available?) to be on the lookout for imperfections built into computers and their programs. Those imperfections can crop up at the darndest times.

    Indeed. Humans aren't in any near term trouble as the "master control system". The governing process, as it were. Consider that if we were to build such an advanced robot that had some crude approximation of human scale and complexity not just in its brain and computing machinery, but its nervous system and hardware config (with all the arrays of sensors that provide some approximation of "touch" or pressure), our SuperBot3000 would begin, like we do, as an "infant". Human context and awareness that we use for all sorts of high level judgments is the product of a lifetime of experience. No matter how similar the SuperBot3000 is in architecture, you are still going to have to "put it in a time machine" the way we go through childhood, adolescence, into adulthood in order to "train the model", such that the kinds of culture references, social connections, personal history and many other factors can be brought to bear on high level decision-making.

    Human thinking is not just architecture and algorithms. It's a HUGE, HUGE stream of data processed by the system that would be the basis for providing the kinds of judgments human make as "generalist thinkers". Again, though,this strikes me as a challenge of scale and mind-boggling complexity, not one of some metaphysical impossibility.

    Just as a quick example of what I mean, I was having a conversation a couple of weeks ago with a pilot friend about the "Sully incident", the USAir flight that Capt. Sullenberger landed in the Hudson after birds knocked the engines out of his Airbus after a take off at LaGuardia. As you may know (if you are into aviation), there is very big difference in the design priorities between Airbus and Boeing. Boeing is "old school" and believes that at the end of day, the Pilot must have ultimate override control over the systems in his/her plane. Airbus, on the other hand, take a computing-centric approach, and designs their planes to "fly by wire", at the command of the Pilot, but will not let the Pilot do things the plane has been programmed to understand are unworkable, or otherwise dangerous.

    Anyway, the "Boeing" view of the Sully Incident was criticism that the Airbus Sullenberger was flying IMMEDIATELY shut down the engines as soon as it detected the massive problems caused by the birds that had ripped up the engines. From a "Boeing" perspective, Sullenberger should have had the option to "damn the torpedoes" and gun the engines for all they worth, for as long as they would provide any additional thrust. The Airbus did not give Sullenberger the option, but the thinking is that just a little more thrust and altitude might have been sufficient to allow Sullenberger to land his plane at Teeterboro airport, which as it was, was just a bit too far to make.

    On the other side of the coin, though, the Boeing and Airbus proponents both agree that there is no possible way that Sullenberger could have performed a landing like he did with a Boeing airframe, touching down in the Hudson so delicately that no one was seriously hurt and the plane came to rest in shallow water like a ski boat winding down after a pull.

    -TS

    (con't)

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  60. @Glenn,

    The Airbus, you see, will simply not let the Pilot put the bird into a stall, and so Sullenberger can go as slow as he can, with as high an angle-of-attack as he can achieve, and the Airbus won't let him exceed the flight constraints of the plane. Not only will the Airbus prevent stalling in that situation, though, it will optimize for the Pilot's commands *toward* a stall -- Sullenberger was looking to put the bird down in the water going as slowly as possible with the minimum rate of descent possible, and the Airbus can optimize for this in a way no human possibly could.

    So, the "Boeing" view is that the need for such an astonishing landing might have been avoided if the human pilot was "fully in charge" in the first place, and the "Airbus" view is that no, the best results are achieved by the control systems of the plane removing lots of options from the Pilot because "it knows best" in those situations.

    The point my offering that little vignette, though, is NOT to make a point about Human executive control vs. computing constraints for high-level decisions. The point I'm making here is that for all that discussion, it's just a dumb avionics system, no matter how amazing it's ability to work the ailerons and rudders in that situation. If yo needed to ask it what to do now that you are in the water and have panicked flyers frantically trying to get out of the plane, well you couldn't ask it anything about that. It's just an avionics system.

    For all it's sophistication in one tiny, narrow application, it's just nothing in a more broad sense. In order for any machine to ever be competetive of useful in that context, it would need to be a "cybernetic pilot" in the robustly human sense of that word.

    Just back from some time up north at the lake for the holiday, time for dinner with the extended family, then I'll get to some more of your posts, and others.

    -TS

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  61. @Glenn,

    Btw, did you know that books.google returns 'about 6,270 results' when searching for 19th century books which mention "internet"?
    Who knew? I think if you take a look at the results, you are getting hits for "Free Google eBooks". One of the metadata tags they put on those books being "internet", referring to the available *medium* of that content. The search box, in other words, is not strictly as scan for "words in the text of the books", but includes more - per Google, whatever they can optimize for maximal searching success as part of their business model. There's some "indeterminacy" in what the semantics of the contents of search terms put into the search box are, which I suppose is somehow related to this wider topic.

    Even so, glitches and bugs are not hard to find in Google code or elseewhere, for sure.



    I submit two questions for your consideration:

    1) What do you think might be one of the things used by humans when working out the kinks, designing patches, and/or fixing bugs?

    Brains!

    2) What do you think might be one of the things used by humans when creating those things which have kinks in need of being worked out, which subsequently need to be patched, and/or are riddled with bugs in need of fixing or removal?

    Brains!

    -TS

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  62. @Mr. Green

    I don't understand what you're getting at, but it's not really a problem that terminology can vary in different contexts — as long as we take some care to keep the context straight. The Scholastic and Ancient sense of "nature" was around long before the modern usage, but perhaps the modern meaning can be useful in other contexts. However, if the discussion is about Thomistic positions, then for people here to insist on clarifying and using that meaning is hardly hypocritical; in fact, it is a requirement if we are not merely to descend to name-calling.

    If I have a friend who believes in astrology (and I do, several actually), and she refuses my label of "superstition" for her beliefs, isn't it on your grounds sufficient for her to say that "no, that's just how nature works, our personal traits and histories and futures are all bound up in the positions of the stars." It would seem so, wouldn't it? Boom! Take any putative superstition, then simply shake some "this how nature really works, actually" over it, and you are golden, right?

    The thrust of all that being that your historical "nature", not being any older than the "nature" of astrology (which my friend tells me dates from well before Plato, like by 1,000 years and more, to the early Akkadians), is not the measure we would use now, as our idea of 'nature' evolves with new evidence and knowledge.


    We don't know the actual pathways that obtained, or may have obtained, so we calculate what we suppose might be the probabilities of a "random deal of the deck". And because those probabilities are astronomically high, and we don't have other concrete pathways to test, ergo ID.

    For the sake of argument, let's simply assume that Behe and co. would accept your paraphrases as faithful and accurate representations of their positions. The original bad argument you presented was, "We can't imagine how some process happened, therefore it's not possible". But what you've attributed to them is, "Such-and-such a process did happen, and we can imagine how this happened, and according to my calculations it was exceedingly unlikely." The calculations may be wrong, the imagined pathways may even be wrong, but those are empirical matters for science to figure out; the argument itself is not the silly one you first claimed.


    Dembski is notorious for eschewing mechanistic details, for example. This from the glory days of ISCID:

    As for your example, I’m not going to take the bait. You’re asking me to play a game: “Provide as much detail in terms of possible causal mechanisms for your ID position as I do for my Darwinian position.” ID is not a mechanistic theory, and it’s not ID’s task to match your pathetic level of detail in telling mechanistic stories. If ID is correct and an intelligence is responsible and indispensable for certain structures, then it makes no sense to try to ape your method of connecting the dots. True, there may be dots to be connected. But there may also be fundamental discontinuities, and with IC systems that is what ID is discovering.

    And indeed, Dembski does not, and has not taken the bait for even a pathetic level of detail concerning what did happen. If you are thinking I'm critiquing their model, I'm not. There is no model. There is what they identify as crazy levels of improbability (based on their peculiar understanding of the background condititions and affinities), which are just not possible, beyond the "universal probability bound" as Dembski would say, and therefore Goddidit. God made it happen miraculously, in a magic puff of white smoke or some such. A non-modelable process.

    The "calculations" you refer to are where the silliness happens. Maybe that will clear things up.

    -TS

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  63. Rank,GP

    Love this Derrida stuff I hope you guys keep going... very educational...

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  64. Touchstone, just admit you made the argument look as idiotic as you desired for personal reasons so we end with the ID discussion.



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  65. @Glenn,


    (3). The state of the art in the mentioned areas clearly shows that Dreyfus was wrong on this point. Nolo contendere.

    OK.


    (2). Unthinking Machines
    [section elided for brevity]

    Dreyfus either was ahead of his time, or he got lucky. Either way, the pattern of "early success followed by difficulties" is, if not typical, then certainly not atypical. And, according to people who one would think might have some competent idea about the matter, AI indeed has been in a state of stagnation for nearly four decades. As already said, Dreyfus either was ahead of his time, or he got lucky.

    My repeating theme here: Strong AI, conceived as being "robustly human" or "robustly humanoid" is not simply a daunting software problem, in terms of scale and complexity. It's a hardware problem and a cultural challenge. Consider the interesting work going on in the "Blue Brain Project": very promising in that it is building a "silicon brain" with a hardware architecture that strongly resembles that of the human brain. But it's hopelessly limited in its returns, until such time as it can be "born" into a humanoid chassis with all the appropriate machinery and sensors (like an enteric nervous system, just to name one "plugin" that's not in the project), if by "returns" we mean success on "fundamental problems", as Dreyfus referred to it. Blue Brain should be a boon, but only as a tactical beachhead on the larger problem. No matter how perfect its neuronal arrangements are, it won't have *experiences* and *sensory* systems that are predicates for a human-like mode of thinking.

    Which has two ramifications, from what I've seen.
    1. No conceptual barriers, or problems in principle are known to be standing in the way of Strong AI. What gains we do make continue to show the "mechanizability" of the processes we do make progress in.
    2. The size and scale of a "working prototype" that could plausible support robust human-like thinking make the Moon Landing project a weekend garage cleaning by comparison in terms of the kinds of sustained, resource-intensive research needed to get there. An "artificial human" for where we are technologically today is just not practical, and is probably a couple generations away and more.

    Given 1 & 2, the return on investments made in AI is much higher in more basic, "subsystem" areas, areas we will need to develop further anyway as stepping stones to work on Strong AI platforms.


    (1). Since whether in principle there will come a time when no human will be able to do anything better than a computer is a question whose answer has yet to be conclusively settled, it cannot be said with unimpeachable certainty that Dreyfus was wrong.

    True!
    Was there anyone back then, is there anyone today, or was there anyone during the intervening period, who would deny that humans "will sometimes deal with some situations better than any computer could"? I don't know what Dreyfus' reasoning was on this point, and it indeed may have been poor (perhaps Papert mentioned what it is; but I've not read his paper in its entirety). But however arrived at, how could any rational person seriously deny the conclusion (and expect to be taken seriously)?
    I don't doubt humans will always make such claims, that silicon-humanoids will be inferior to humans at this or that. And while some of this is going to come from innate chauvinism in humans, just as a practical matter it will always be true, I think: nothing can be more authentically human than a human. By definition, right?

    The question at that point just turns on whether "better" is predicated on "authentically human" or some other measure.

    -TS

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  66. Rank:

    That isn't a good definition of the metaphysics of presence. The metaphysics of presence is Heidegger's term for the failed philosophy since Plato, which attempted to described reality in terms of the fully-present--such as Plato's forms. However, Heidegger wrote that an understanding of Being must be historical and temporal in nature, and as such cannot ever be fully present. Historicality always prevents this.

    “Fully-present” to what, though? The indexical “now” requires a particular point of view, which ideally involves a being with consciousness of temporality. The idea of a metaphysics of presence is that a priority is placed on presence as opposed to absence, and presence is always the presence to something, whether a human being or God. Thus, the human being experiences the present moment via consciousness, God exists in an eternal present, and temporality itself is conceived of as a series of nows in succession. In other words, something must be happening right now if it is to be considered actually real.

    Derrida tries to apply this idea to "writing"--his word for representation--which is essentially a broken version of Saussure's semiotics: signifiers have no referents/signifieds aside from other signifiers. He declares that all representation, all language, all writing is historical. One of his favorite methods for showing this is digging around root words to show the contradictions inherent in all "meaning" and "presence". "Presence" can only exist when attached to history, and that history is one of contradictions, absence and absurdity. As a result, the metaphysics of presence is an illusion: a game concocted to silence history by violence.

    First, Derrida’s point was that we can never reach the transcendental signified, which is “naked, prelinguistic, hors-textual, ahistorical, uninterpreted fact of the matter called the thing-in-itself”, because “We are always and already, on Derrida’s telling, embedded in various networks – social, historical, linguistic, political, sexual networks … if we ever try to lay aside the enframing texts of Plato and Aristotle and look ‘directly’ at the things themselves of which they spoke, we will do so only through other frames, other horizons, other socio-historico-linguistic presuppositions, other ‘differential’ relationships or networks … Derrida is not trying to bury the idea of ‘objectivity’ but, a little like Kant, to force us to formulate a more sensible version of it than of some ahistorical Ding-an-sich” (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, pp. 79-80).

    Second, the absurdity and impossibility are relative to a particular framework. In other words, according to a particular system with its specific rules, a phenomenon is marked as impossible. And the metaphysics of presence, because it ignores absence as unreal, has a number of loose ends and strands that cause the entire fabric to unravel when they are pulled. And that is because if you treat absence as equivalent to non-being, then you get paradoxes and impossibilities, and yet if you treat absence as a kind of being, then you avoid those paradoxes, but have to struggle with the counter-intuitive idea that something not there can still exist in some sense.

    It's nothing like the analogia entis--trust me.

    What I meant is that just as analogy is an in-between phenomenon between equivocation and univocality, so linguistic meaning is an in-between phenomenon between fixed and permanent meaning and nonsense. So, for our knowledge of being to be possible, it must be understood analogically, and for our capacity to use linguistic meaning to be possible, it must be understood as impermanent and transient, but not to the point that everyone can mean whatever they want.

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  67. Rank:

    What Derrida is saying is that any representation or set of representations is utterly relative. This is the direct result of his semiotic theory ("grammatology"), in which all is "text" connected by "traces". Any attempt to demarcate a text is doomed to fail, because that text has always already been attacked by the trace, which connects it to the whole totality of the wide text. Meaning is an illusion brought on by a forgetfulness of historicality. His solution is to deconstruct everything, undermining the metaphysics of presence by making every pathway, interpretation, contradiction, history and so forth known.

    First, any representation is relative to something. At the very least, it must be relative to the mind having the representation in question, to the object being represented, to the kind of representation that is possible for that mind, given its operating rules, and so on. I don’t think the relativity of representation is that controversial.

    Second, his point is that meaning is not too little, but too much. That is the reason why you cannot put a boundary around a particular meaning and fix it permanently. There are too many possible meanings that are simply not present to one’s awareness at the time of placing the boundary, because there are too many possible contexts and frameworks that determine meanings available both at this time, and in the future, including those that are currently unimaginable and beyond the horizon of thought.

    Third, the purpose of deconstruction is to first start with a painstaking analysis of a text according to current standards of study, and then to look for loose ends, openings, and traces of another possible interpretation, because no interpretation is final and permanent, much like no meaning of a term is final and permanent. It is an open-ended process in which one must always be haunted by something beyond the horizon of thought that is outside of our awareness at this time. It is not a chaotic free for all in which one can interpret a text any way one wants, and it is not true that meaning simply evaporates. There is stability in meaning and interpretation, but it is not permanent and fixed for all time, and is rather a changing and fluid process that is open-ended.

    This does not save his own system. It amounts to what's sometimes called the "truth that there are no truths". You have to make a fully present, unchanging account of things (a metanarrative) before you can criticize anything else. Derrida decides that his metanarrative is semiotics. But if this theory itself is deconstructed, then we enter a logical loop

    First, it might not save his system, but it does provide vivid examples of how we accept something being both inside and outside a system.

    Second, I don’t think it is highly farfetched to hold a position that there are truths that are beyond our cognition and our language. There are many things that we know about God, but there are probably many more that we do not know, both because of our limited cognitive abilities and our limited linguistic capacities. So what happens when one tries to talk about what is beyond our thoughts and language? Is it necessarily nonsense? If it is, then you cannot hold that God is beyond our thoughts and language, because that would be nonsense, and thus God would have to be only what our thoughts and language can determine him to be, which seems wrong. So, it is possible, and thus Derrida’s approach is not necessarily undermined by your critique. He is trying to describe something indescribable, and to write about what is absent and yet influencing all writing not from on high, but from down low. Again, it is like talking about prime matter as being the principle of potency underneath all change, and yet at the same time realizing that it cannot possibly exist.

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  68. Rank:

    It's very simple. He often tries to make a place for the trace, differance and such "before language" and "outside of history". In fact, he claims, they are the very possibility of history. But this simply begs the question against competing theories. Derrida's semiology is only one possibility, itself in a rivalry with one that takes intentionality as its basis. Derrida places writing ("arche-writing") before intentionality: writing is the very possibility of intentionality. This, again, simply begs the question.

    I think that Derrida argues that intentionality is not separate from the total context of any text, but rather is an essential part of it. Intentionality and writing do not exist in a binary opposition, but rather penetrate and determine one another in essential ways. What we intend in our minds is largely determined against the background context of our framework, and our framework within which we operate is largely determined by our intentions and thoughts. It is not an either-or, but a both-and kind of thing, I think. In other words, intentionality is a highly complex interpretive act of the mind, because our intentionality that thought “X” refers to X must involve some concept of “X” as X. So, this would be an example of where Derrida rejects binary oppositions as pure separation between two utterly distinct things as in reality more like an interdependency for the most part with some extreme and utterly independent cases at the fringes that possibly undermine the entire structure, and thus deconstructs it.

    Perhaps that's so. No such things occur inside of Aquinas's philosophy, though--so I have nothing to worry about.

    I haven’t gotten to the part of Wippel’s book about prime matter. Maybe you’re right, but I don’t see how Aquinas can avoid the absurdity of saying that prime matter exists in any sense without admitting a contradiction in his system, and yet prime matter is necessarily the underlying principle of potency behind all change. So, it seems that it is both necessary and impossible, even for Aquinas. But, again, I have to read more about this.

    All this tells us is that such systems are ultimately incoherent and self-undermining. The history of philosophy has seen countless such systems. All this means is that we need a better one.

    Exactly. We always are searching for a system that is better at absorbing and assimilating all phenomena, which involves accepting that our current systems are incomplete and that we should be open to the possibility that they will have to be radically revised and transformed, even in ways that we currently cannot even imagine. In other words, we have to apply deconstruction to our systems, rather than solidify them into imposing edifices of authority. It pays to closely scrutinize the embarrassing children of the system that the system would rather be swept behind the curtain, because those children tell us much about the system in question.

    Furthermore, it is debatable about whether we will ever reach the Final Theory that explains Everything in Totality without any exceptions. According to Aquinas, short of the beautific vision, humans will never be able to reach anything close to such a level of knowledge.

    The Other is Derrida's term for that which is outside of representation. This is where Derrida's debts to Levinas and Kant become clear. The Other is an impossibility: we cannot know it, because knowing it reduces it to a representation. Knowing reduces the Other to the "Same". The Other cannot ever be present, for to be present is to be reduced to Same. As a result, the Other is always just out of reach, always about to arrive--but it can never appear.

    Right. The Other is like the horizon. It is there, but we can never reach it. It is yet another absence that is structurally impossible to become present, except as a call towards that which is beyond our current framework.

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  69. Rank:

    So it can't be the case that the Other is an "unexpected future manifestation": if it manifests, then it ceases to be Other.

    True.

    Even if something was fully present, it would be a disaster of contradiction and absurdity with no certain meaning. It doesn't have to do, necessarily, with someone's knowledge at the time of representation, but rather with the impossibility of total presence as such.

    We are saying similar things in different ways. The reason why total presence is impossible is because of the necessity of absences (e.g. the trace, differance, the Other, and so on) that structure the presences, and are conditions for their very possibility.

    Well, that's typically what Derrida calls the trace. Differance also includes the "differing" aspect, which brings in his ideas of violence. Differance is differing and deferring: it is the trace of absence and the impassible space that violently separates differences.

    Right.

    I'm aware of this. I know that some people get confused by the hors-texte issue, but I've done my research here. The text is the totality of representation as invaded by differance: by the trace and difference. It's impossible to get beyond the context of particular historicality, impossible to get beyond relativity to other contingencies. As a result, all writing is personal and wholly relative.

    I don’t think that “all writing is personal” in the sense that it can mean whatever a person wants it to mean. We use words within a linguistic community, and our language must make reference to that community, which means that we cannot simply disregard the overall framework within which we operate and still create meaningful statements. However, it also does not mean that all meaning is limited by that community’s rules, because there are openings and possibilities of meaning that have not yet been imagined by anyone in that community, but still remain possible. So, it is a balancing act between maintaining enough stability to be meaningful while also stretching a few boundaries and limits to new areas of meaning without going beyond to the breaking point of incoherence.

    I really don’t get what the controversy is. If you can point to an idea or concept or word that makes absolutely no reference to other ideas or concepts or words, then you will have refuted Derrida. However, if you cannot, then his position stands as valid. Now, it does not follow that those ideas or concepts or words only refer to other ideas or concepts or words. Rather, they do refer to objects (loosely defined) but only through an interpretive web of ideas or concepts or words. There is no reaching objects without that interpretive framework, much like there is no seeing a deer except through our visual system.

    That's impossible. Referents are only more signifiers: not "actual things", which don't exist. And these further signifiers gain their "meaning" through their differences from and their deferral to other signifiers, on and on. We cannot ever mean the same thing because neither of us means anything in the first place.

    I don’t think so. Of course we can mean the same thing, but what we mean at this time does not exhaust the possible meanings of the terms involved. The ancient Greeks meant one thing by “atom”, and yet we mean something else entirely. They could never imagine that “atom” could come to mean what it currently does, and yet it happened. To say that because “atom” has changed meaning over the centuries means that “atom” means nothing is just absurd.

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  70. Rank:

    There are standard readings of texts, which is based upon a consensus of experts, for example. As Caputo writes: “To read Plato and Aristotle well, one must learn Greek, learn as much as possible about their predecessors, contemporaries, and successors, about their religious, social, political, and historical presuppositions, understand the complex history of subsequent interpretations of their works, etc. This is ‘not easy’; indeed, it is an infinite task, and deconstruction is not a license to circumvent it. For otherwise, if this reading does not take place, then ‘anything goes’, and readers may say of a text whatever comes into their heads” (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, p. 78). This seems to directly contradict your reading of Derrida as sanctioning an “anything goes” semiotic framework in which one can mean anything by anything, because one means nothing at all. It seems that there is a meaning, but that that meaning is not the only meaning, and that to reach the other meanings, one must first master the initial meanings.

    Caputo again: “the possibility must be kept alive of reading otherwise, which means always passing through the classical discipline, and never having abandoned or jettisoned it, to explore what it omits, forgets, excludes, expels, marginalizes, dismisses, ignores, scorns, slights, takes too lightly, waves off, is just not serious enough about! … A deconstructor is like an inspector who is gravely concerned with a little crack he observes in an airplane’s fuselage (given the laws of gravity), while everyone else on the inspection team is eager to break for lunch – thus reversing the popular stereotype that the deconstructive reading is silly and sloppy” (Ibid., p. 79).

    Derrida's system guarantees that stability is impossible. That's the whole point of deconstruction: to destabilize everything, forever.

    No. That depends upon how you look at it. Is it likely that there will be future radical revisions to our interpretive framework? I would say so. That has been the history of humanity. Does that necessarily mean that everything we currently believe is false? No. Some of it is likely false, and to be improved with better knowledge, and some of it is either true, or close enough to the truth to avoid the charge of falsehood. Similarly, just because our current interpretive frameworks are incomplete, and likely will be surpassed in the future, does not necessarily mean that they are totally false. So, Derrida’s system allows stability, but not permanence, and fortunately, one need not permanence for stability. A bridge does not have to stand forever in order to successfully get vehicles over a river.

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  71. @rank sophist,

    Here's a bit of Derrida on Derrida, from a lecture/interview he gave at Oxford four or five years ago. I'm including a bit of parts I transcribed some time back for another discussion. The YouTube video for this part can be seen here.

    [Montefiore]: One of the fears that many of the so-called critics of Deconstruction have had has been that it in some way undermines the rationality of the subject, or the thought that the subject had committed himself or herself with clear, conscious intent to some rationally undertaken project... and I wonder if in this context before we go on to the next topic we want to talk about, you might have a word of explanation, or reassurance, or non-reassurance...

    [Derrida] ...Now, on the problem of rationality: I would reply almost the same thing, and it's probably the same thing. The people who say that Deconstruction is, undermining rationality; first: they don't read; second, they refer to a certain state, a certain set of knowns they call reason, rationality. And, in the same way the subject has a history, reason has a history. Our rationalism today cannot be the same as the rationalism of the 18th century, when the concept of the rights of man, the declaration of universal rights has been, for the first time, established. That's why I would describe Deconstruction as modern rationality, which tries to incorporate new disciplines, new forms of rationality.

    When you take, for instance, into account, this massive example -- psychoanalysis -- which, whatever you think of the complexity of psychoanalysis, which teaches us that what we call a 'subject' is not simply consciousness. It has to be the ego, there is repression, there are sometimes split subjects, a multiplicity within the individual and so on and so forth... when you take this into account, and to integrate, to incorporate the referential psychoanalysis into not only the theory but the practice of law, for instance -- human rights, who is responsible for a murder, for instance, who is responsible for a strike, who is responsible for a political gesture. The question of this responsibility: once you pay attention to the fact that a subject is not simply a transparent ego, a reflexive ego, totally present to itself, then you have to transform your approach, you have to inform the very process of reasoning. To me, psycho is not irrational. It is a new component of modern rationality -- the same way with physics, the same with bio-genetics, all those current problems, the problem of bio-ethics, the problem of birth control, the problems of access of people who, until now, had no access to human rights... children, women, and so on... imply that you rebuild -- if you want -- the concept of reasoning.

    So, of course, when you say "Well, reasoning is not what you thought it was." then people stand up and say "Well, you are irrational. You are simply threatening reasoning." No, on the contrary, I think, in the name of a new rationalism, that deconstruction is necessary.
    So, I don't accept, of course, the charge of irrationalism. On the contrary. On the contrary.


    That was useful then, and I think it's useful now, for hearing (if you watch the video) Derrida take on this charge of irrationality directly, in his own voice. Rather than assaulting rationality itself, for Derrida, deconstruction is a mechanism for incorporating new knowledge and understanding and context into our concept of rationality over time. Or, to look at the negation, it's implausible to think that our methods and principles of reasoning should remain static, unchanging overtime, uninformed by the events that develop -- new knowledge, new culture, new problems, etc. Derrida is advocating for 'reasoning about reasoning' as an ongoing process, historically aware and mindful of the present.

    -TS


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  72. TS:

    Thanks for the quote.

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  73. Derrida's quote above simply begs the question, as always. His response to those who call him an irrationalist is to deconstruct the position that he claims they support. But what's at issue is the very legitimacy of deconstruction, and whether or not it undermines its own premises. You cannot invoke deconstruction to argue for deconstruction, on pains of circular logic. Now, Derrida might claim that "logic" and "logical fallacies" are also invaded by differance, and so avoid the accusation--but this is merely to beg the question again, while simultaneously failing to offer any positive account for deconstruction. Further, he fails to explain why his representationalist semiology is not itself reduced to rubble, and so it might even be valid to accuse him of handwaving. Typical Derrida pretzel logic.

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  74. Apparently the problem of complete unknowness happens only when you use Derrida´s idea that everything is just signs.

    Perhaps Rank is just talking about that. So basically the conversion haven´t moved at all XD.



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  75. Here's another relevant (I think) piece of what I transcribed previously, taken from part 2 of the video series, here. In this stretch he is responding to Montefiore's (the interviewer) question about Deconstruction vs. Reconstruction. He points out that he is not comfortable with "reconstruction" because that to him implies a "fixed reference frame" (my term, not his) of sorts, a baseline for judging what needs to be constructed, and how, and what it will be later assessed *against*. He goes on to say:

    [Derrida]But, I would simply say this: First, it is necessary, I would say, in that part, of the free discussion of modern enlightenment, not to rely to slogans. When you hear "deconstruction of the subject", this is a slogan. Usually, it's used by people who want to avoid what they consider the threats coming from Deconstruction. They say "Well, Deconstruction is simply a negative project, which undermines everything and doesn't leave anything in place, and we have to reject this.". I have constantly -- I have not been the only one to do that -- but I have constantly insisted on the contrary, on the fact that Deconstruction was mainly affirmation.

    Affirmation.

    "Affirmation" doesn't mean "reconstruction", doesn't mean "position" -- something positive. But it means a constant reference to a "Yes". "Yes, I speak to you, I address you, I listen to you." So it's a thinking of the affirmation.

    Now, this affirmation is not simply Reconstruction. When you use a word -- "reconstruction" in a given context, of course -- you imply that something which is precious to you has been threatened or destroyed and you have to simply rebuild. No it's a matter of rebuilding. It's a matter of going further, displacing, changing, changing the world, changing society, changing the state of things in terms of human rights, for instance, is not simply reconstruction. It's constructing something else, something Other.


    This is just more testimony from Derrida himself, in his own words, that Deconstruction is not Destruction. In fact, the very last statement in this particular video(@(9:12), closing Derrida's point here from him:

    "That's why I, if you leave me the choice, in terms of both, between [Deconstruction] and [Reconstruction], I would always prefer "Deconstruction" to "Reconstruction", but, to the extent that Deconstruction is not Destruction.

    As a software developer, I recognize this treatment of Deconstruction in terms of what we would call "de-crufting", or more formally, "refactoring" our code. And with that comes new practices, hopefully for the better (although sometimes not). But it's a dynamic process over time that is healthy and fruitful. It certainly has a measure of 'destroy to create", taking things apart and reworking them for new contexts an applications, but the "code base" evolves and grows because of it, as opposed to being destroyed.

    The subtext from Derrida on this is that with the critique and the openness to the new, the Other, our understandings and meanings become ossified, obsolete, narrow. For Derrida, this process of complicating and detailing what we have brings us *closer* to a true picture of the scope of meaning for a concept, not farther away, closer to the kind of complexity that defies simplistic univocalities, but instead preserves the kinds of overloading, conflicts and nuances that obtain as symbols and concepts evolve over time in society.

    -TS

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  76. So Derrida ... talks mostly in social matters like politics/society? It doesn´t seem like he is talking about metaphysical characteristics and if he is or did talked about that, he seems oblivious to what he defends.

    It seems that his Deconstruction is something like "Being open to new ideas" sort of philosophy.

    I always find fun about this type of idea because one can simply have the idea to stay on old ideas forever, AND THAT WOULD BE NEW... back then. Democracy also has that, you know, everybody decides that Dictatorship is better.

    Well maybe that is not what he means, maybe is not a general rule of any sort.

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  77. Touchstone,

    >>I submit two questions for your consideration:

    >> 1) What do you think might be one of the things used by
    >> humans when working out the kinks, designing patches,
    >> and/or fixing bugs?

    > Brains!

    >> 2) What do you think might be one of the things used by
    >> humans when creating those things which have kinks in
    >> need of being worked out, which subsequently need to be
    >> patched, and/or are riddled with bugs in need of fixing
    >> or removal?

    > Brains!

    Yes, indeed. Though I myself would add, "...and the intellect to make good use of them. Otherwise all you have is just a dumb 'avionics system' (so to speak), no matter how amazing their innate functionality."

    Brains are necessary, though not sufficient; and probably most if not all of us know or have known of people with a ton of brains who could only get maybe 8 mpg out of them, and others with relatively little brains who nonetheless were able to get as much as, say, 45 mpg out of them. When it is said, "You've got brains--use them!" those who say it, and those who understand it when it is said, are, I postulate, tacitly acknowledging that brains are not sufficient unto themselves.

    Also, I read Sully's book on the incident when it came out, and I don't recollect his having mentioned what you've related above re the Airbus vs Boeing perspectives. I found the tension between the two perspectives interesting. Thanks for relating it.

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  78. Apparently the smartest man there was didn´t have most of his brain, just the vital parts and a shell that was supposed to be his brain. He had Autism too XD.

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  79. Glenn,

    Brains are necessary, though not sufficient; and probably most if not all of us know or have known of people with a ton of brains who could only get maybe 8 mpg out of them, and others with relatively little brains who nonetheless were able to get as much as, say, 45 mpg out of them. When it is said, "You've got brains--use them!" those who say it, and those who understand it when it is said, are, I postulate, tacitly acknowledging that brains are not sufficient unto themselves.

    It's also worth remembering that what brains are and do on materialism is different from what they are and do on Aquinas' and other metaphysics. Even those non-intellectual operations are considered in different lights, and those same operations are still notoriously problematic under materialism.

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  80. “Fully-present” to what, though? The indexical “now” requires a particular point of view, which ideally involves a being with consciousness of temporality. The idea of a metaphysics of presence is that a priority is placed on presence as opposed to absence, and presence is always the presence to something, whether a human being or God. Thus, the human being experiences the present moment via consciousness, God exists in an eternal present, and temporality itself is conceived of as a series of nows in succession. In other words, something must be happening right now if it is to be considered actually real.

    Have you read much Heidegger? His point has nothing to do with that. The "present" is not time only, but rather the idea of the present-at-hand. The metaphysics of presence is a certain way of understanding Being--namely, by understanding Being as something that is "there". If something is not there, then it is not Being. However, Heidegger attempts to show that this is in fact a simplistic idea of Being. In one of his lectures, he used the example of a water pitcher, which is not used for what is there--the shape--, but for what is not there: the empty space inside. The Forms, on the other hand, are always fully "there": totally present. This is certainly an issue of time, but Heidegger tore apart traditional notions of time. You're using "present" in a simplistic sense that he likely would not have agreed with.

    The metaphysics of presence cause the Seinsvergessenheit, or oblivion of Being. The temporality and historicality of Being is also a major theme--essentially the main theme--in his work, but "present" is a more complex word than you seem to realize. Derrida stole pretty much all of this from Heidegger, minus the sense, so you can interpret his work along those lines.

    First, Derrida’s point was that we can never reach the transcendental signified, which is “naked, prelinguistic, hors-textual, ahistorical, uninterpreted fact of the matter called the thing-in-itself”, because “We are always and already, on Derrida’s telling, embedded in various networks – social, historical, linguistic, political, sexual networks … if we ever try to lay aside the enframing texts of Plato and Aristotle and look ‘directly’ at the things themselves of which they spoke, we will do so only through other frames, other horizons, other socio-historico-linguistic presuppositions, other ‘differential’ relationships or networks … Derrida is not trying to bury the idea of ‘objectivity’ but, a little like Kant, to force us to formulate a more sensible version of it than of some ahistorical Ding-an-sich”

    I'm not fan of Caputo, and his writing here seems to muddy the waters. The first part is accurate, but it happens to be exactly what I said before: signifiers meeting signifiers, forever. The second part--about objectivity--is blatantly false. Objectivity is impossible in a world overwhelmed by Derridean representationalism, and Derrida himself realizes this. He denies that objectivity--a beyond-the-text perspective, outside of historicality--is possible. He may certainly redefine the word "objective", as he's wont to do, but this says nothing about the possibility of by-the-books objectivity.

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  81. Second, the absurdity and impossibility are relative to a particular framework.

    I meant that, for Derrida, history is one long series of contradictions. The historicality of every signifier is littered with irreconcilable contradictions and absurdities. Deconstruction is an orgiastic affirmation of these things: a true Dionysian paradise.

    First, any representation is relative to something. At the very least, it must be relative to the mind having the representation in question, to the object being represented, to the kind of representation that is possible for that mind, given its operating rules, and so on. I don’t think the relativity of representation is that controversial.

    This presupposes a representationalist account of consciousness, and so begs the question. Heidegger and Aquinas were direct realists; Derrida was a representationalist. Of course representations are relative--that's why Derrida's system ends in self-refutation.

    Second, his point is that meaning is not too little, but too much. That is the reason why you cannot put a boundary around a particular meaning and fix it permanently. There are too many possible meanings that are simply not present to one’s awareness at the time of placing the boundary, because there are too many possible contexts and frameworks that determine meanings available both at this time, and in the future, including those that are currently unimaginable and beyond the horizon of thought.

    What is "meaning"? It's deconstructed, too. There is no such thing as meaning. The only "meaning" for Derrida lies in differance itself, which is, of course, non-existent. As the trace, it is what Derrida calls the Wholly Other: that which has always already vanished, has never existed, is always arriving and will never arrive. The enormity of the Wholly Other is where we find significance and the sublime, above "meaning"--which is merely a representation whose own meaning has always already vanished. Everything is always grasping for the Wholly Other, where it gains its meaning; but the Wholly Other is unknowable and unreachable.

    It is not a chaotic free for all in which one can interpret a text any way one wants, and it is not true that meaning simply evaporates. There is stability in meaning and interpretation, but it is not permanent and fixed for all time, and is rather a changing and fluid process that is open-ended.

    You seem to need a bit of a refresher in exactly what deconstruction is. It is Nietzsche's "pure affirmation"; a Dionysian "everything-at-onceness" that infinitely tears itself apart and puts itself back together. There's nothing painstaking about it: it's pure play, chaos, destruction. Deconstruction is always happening even when we aren't performing it. Texts simply deconstruct themselves. The historicality--the trace, is always already there, subverting any metaphysics of presence.

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  82. I don’t think it is highly farfetched to hold a position that there are truths that are beyond our cognition and our language. There are many things that we know about God, but there are probably many more that we do not know, both because of our limited cognitive abilities and our limited linguistic capacities. So what happens when one tries to talk about what is beyond our thoughts and language? Is it necessarily nonsense? If it is, then you cannot hold that God is beyond our thoughts and language, because that would be nonsense, and thus God would have to be only what our thoughts and language can determine him to be, which seems wrong. So, it is possible, and thus Derrida’s approach is not necessarily undermined by your critique. He is trying to describe something indescribable, and to write about what is absent and yet influencing all writing not from on high, but from down low.

    Not the same thing. The unknowability of God deals with the limits of logic, of which God is the source. God is so simple that he cannot be known or restricted rationally. This, however, does not undermine the rational systems that we use to learn of his existence: these are stable. Derrida's Wholly Other does undermine those systems. The trace evacuates every representation of content. Not only is the Wholly Other unknowable, but it destroys all methods for even positing its existence. Derrida affirmed the former but flip-flopped on the latter, since he knew that his whole structure would crumble into relativism if he did.

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  83. One last one from my transcriptions on the Oxford lecture from Derrida. This is from part one, and here Derrida addresses some of the misunderstandings that come up on Deconstruction, particularly with respect to the concept of "subject".

    [Derrida] First of all, I would say that using one of your words, that "deconstruction of the subject", if there is such a thing -- which I doubt -- can in no case amount to dissolution of the subject. Deconstruction doesn't mean, to me, "dissolution". Which means, that when you deconstruct (and I'll try explain what I mean by that) anything you simply do not destroy or dissolve or cancel the legitimacy of what you're deconstructing.

    In that case, deconstructing the subject, if there is such a thing, means fist to analyze, historically, in a genealogical way, the different layers which have built, so to speak, every concept. Every concept has its own history, and the concept of 'subject' has a very long, heavy and complex history. For instance, in the English philosophical tradition, the word 'subject' is not used the same way, or sometimes it's not used as a canonical concept, the way it is used in Continental philosophy, in German philosophy, in French philosophy.

    So first, we have to translate these words into first a different idiom, and finally, into all the possible idioms. Since we're supposed to address here the problem of human rights, we face first the problem of language. If there are human rights, it means universally valid human rights, they should be accessible, understandable to everyone, whatever language they understand or speak. Now, if you try to make the word "subject" understandable in a culture in which the philosophical Greek, German, Latin tradition is not familiar, then the word doesn't mean anything. So the first thing you have to do is universal translation of what the subject is.

    So, deconstruction of the subject, is first, among other things, the genealogical analysis of the trajectory through which the concept has been built, used, legitimized, and so forth. To say few words about this tradition: what we call a "subject", was first in the Aristotelian tradition hypokeimenon, the substance, something which is underneath, identical to itself, and different from the different properties, qualities, attributes...

    It is the center of an identity. Everything which occurs to a subject is an event which occurs to it, but which doesn't constitute it. So the subject is something identical to itself, cannot be divided, can be counted as one. Now, when you deconstruct a subject you analyze all the hidden assumptions which are implied in the philosophical, or the ethical or the theoretical, or the political use of the concept of "subject".


    This quote is useful in terms of explicating the developmental nature of Deconstruction, and the evolution and growth of "subject" as a result of deconstruction, rather than, as some might suppose, the *destruction* of it. He begins with hypokeimenon -- a word I would translate as "substrate", but "the stuff underneath works" -- and moves on (some of this is beyond what I've transcribed in the video) through its evolution over time *as* the basis of good translation and communication, as the basis for a durable and robust concept of "subject" that can underwrite a universal movement for furthering human rights.

    The key phrase in there I think is "you analyze all the hidden assumptions..." It is here that Derrida is locating more content, not just the historical trajectory but the various meta-meanings and indirections that attach to a concept that provide for both a much richer understanding about concepts and their meanings and an understanding of "where the term is going". In this, conflict and complexity and degrees of ambiguity/uncertainty, but also depth, and evolutionary knowledge about concepts.

    -TS

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  84. @rank sophist,

    I'm not fan of Caputo, and his writing here seems to muddy the waters. The first part is accurate, but it happens to be exactly what I said before: signifiers meeting signifiers, forever. The second part--about objectivity--is blatantly false. Objectivity is impossible in a world overwhelmed by Derridean representationalism, and Derrida himself realizes this. He denies that objectivity--a beyond-the-text perspective, outside of historicality--is possible. He may certainly redefine the word "objective", as he's wont to do, but this says nothing about the possibility of by-the-books objectivity.

    So this once again asks for some clarity from you. What do you deploy here as your definition of "objective". It's problematic for "objective definition", as I pointed out above, but just "objective" seems a very mysterious concept for you.

    Can you provide an example that shows your definition of "objective" in action? If I can see that, I can perhaps apply it to Derrida, or make sense of comments like this from you. As it is, I'm stuck wondering what *your* definition is that prompts this kind of response.

    -TS

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  85. So, this would be an example of where Derrida rejects binary oppositions as pure separation between two utterly distinct things as in reality more like an interdependency for the most part with some extreme and utterly independent cases at the fringes that possibly undermine the entire structure, and thus deconstructs it.

    This is mostly correct, but Derrida says that arche-writing (writing-before-writing) is prelinguistic, prelogical and preinterpretive. It is the groundwork for language, logic and interpretation. I believe he holds the same view of intentionality: arche-writing would be pre-intentional, the very possibility of intentionality. I'm not super familiar with Derrida's take on intentionality, but, from what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be his focus. Willard takes him to task for that in the article I linked before. I don't think he would put intentionality on the same level of arche-writing.

    I haven’t gotten to the part of Wippel’s book about prime matter. Maybe you’re right, but I don’t see how Aquinas can avoid the absurdity of saying that prime matter exists in any sense without admitting a contradiction in his system, and yet prime matter is necessarily the underlying principle of potency behind all change. So, it seems that it is both necessary and impossible, even for Aquinas. But, again, I have to read more about this.

    Having read the relevant passages in the contra Gentiles, I can assure you that he avoids the nonsensical dialectic between prime matter and pure actuality, which reduced Aristotle's system to an onto-theological discourse of totality. Prime matter is not opposed to God, but is created by him, held in existence by him. Working from here, he is able to correct the absurdities of Aristotle's philosophy.

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  86. Exactly. We always are searching for a system that is better at absorbing and assimilating all phenomena, which involves accepting that our current systems are incomplete and that we should be open to the possibility that they will have to be radically revised and transformed, even in ways that we currently cannot even imagine. In other words, we have to apply deconstruction to our systems, rather than solidify them into imposing edifices of authority. It pays to closely scrutinize the embarrassing children of the system that the system would rather be swept behind the curtain, because those children tell us much about the system in question.

    Furthermore, it is debatable about whether we will ever reach the Final Theory that explains Everything in Totality without any exceptions. According to Aquinas, short of the beautific vision, humans will never be able to reach anything close to such a level of knowledge.


    The Beatific Vision is not a totality, since it's a vision of the infinite. The infinite can never be exhausted, and so it can never be closed, "presentized" and totalized.

    Also, to criticize a system is not to deconstruct it. Deconstruction is endless play without meaning: Nietzsche's pure affirmation. Touchstone, above, seems to think that Derrida's talk somehow undermines my point, when, in fact, he's agreeing with exactly what I said. Let me quote Hart on the point of pure affirmation, briefly.

    "The Nietzschean 'ethic of joy' that, delighting in multiplicity, creates with reaction, and affirms life without justifying of redeeming it, must always follow upon destruction; the critical violence of the master must go to the furthermost extremes of a destructive nihilism before it arrives at the moment of conversion and is capable of absolute affirmation; it must suffer the thought of the eternal recurrence before negativity, interiority, and subjectivity are overthrown, forever banishing the resentful ethos of the slave."

    Worse yet,

    "'Nietzschean' moralism is a sad absurdity. True, Nietzsche himself would have found the Nazis vulgar, and he denounced fashionable anti-Semitism in his day, but there is no way within the Nietzschean narrative to prevent a renarration of the Reich's mass-murders as merely careless acts of Aryan exuberance, not resentful but affirmative, natural gestures, a bit of playful aquiline depredation; and similarly, while Deleuze and Foucault may resist collective expressions of power, it is difficult to see why they should, as only a Kantian transcendental subject (that is, one that has not been serialized) needs to be saved from flowing into greater expressions of force."

    This is what Derrida's deconstruction is, plain and simple. Nothing more, nothing less.

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  87. I don’t think that “all writing is personal” in the sense that it can mean whatever a person wants it to mean. We use words within a linguistic community, and our language must make reference to that community, which means that we cannot simply disregard the overall framework within which we operate and still create meaningful statements. However, it also does not mean that all meaning is limited by that community’s rules, because there are openings and possibilities of meaning that have not yet been imagined by anyone in that community, but still remain possible. So, it is a balancing act between maintaining enough stability to be meaningful while also stretching a few boundaries and limits to new areas of meaning without going beyond to the breaking point of incoherence.

    This is not the theory behind deconstruction. Again, we're dealing with the prioritization of Dionysian difference (endless rending and rebuilding) over Apollonian totality (lifeless, vacuous, changeless). Deconstruction is not a theory but a "fact" about everything: all is chaos. Our job is to affirm every difference, to lay bare every history. Derrida believes that some conventions cannot be deconstructed, but only because we could not communicate otherwise. This brings in his "economy of violence", whereby we participate in lesser violence to prevent the greater. It's still a Dionysian flux, though.

    I don’t think so. Of course we can mean the same thing, but what we mean at this time does not exhaust the possible meanings of the terms involved. The ancient Greeks meant one thing by “atom”, and yet we mean something else entirely. They could never imagine that “atom” could come to mean what it currently does, and yet it happened. To say that because “atom” has changed meaning over the centuries means that “atom” means nothing is just absurd.

    That isn't what Derrida is saying. If you don't know the nitty-gritty of his theory--all that stuff about semiotics--then I can understand why it might seem that way to you; but that simply isn't what's going on. Every signifier, from the beginning, has been invaded by the trace. Everything is radically interpreter-relative. It is not even remotely possible for two people to mean the same thing, because there is no "thing" toward which their "meanings" point. The meaning of any "thing" is always already gone, carried away by the trace. We're reduced to arbitrary pragmatism.

    This is ‘not easy’; indeed, it is an infinite task, and deconstruction is not a license to circumvent it. For otherwise, if this reading does not take place, then ‘anything goes’, and readers may say of a text whatever comes into their heads” (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, p. 78). This seems to directly contradict your reading of Derrida as sanctioning an “anything goes” semiotic framework in which one can mean anything by anything, because one means nothing at all. It seems that there is a meaning, but that that meaning is not the only meaning, and that to reach the other meanings, one must first master the initial meanings.

    Caputo is trying, in vain, to contain the overflow of deconstruction. Perhaps Derrida did the same. But there is nothing at all in deconstruction itself--no failsafe--that would prevent any "anything goes" state of affairs. "Anything goes" is, in fact, Nietzschean affirmation in its fullest expression, and Derrida is a self-proclaied follower of that system.

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  88. A deconstructor is like an inspector who is gravely concerned with a little crack he observes in an airplane’s fuselage (given the laws of gravity), while everyone else on the inspection team is eager to break for lunch – thus reversing the popular stereotype that the deconstructive reading is silly and sloppy

    Caputo, again, tells us nothing here. The deconstructor is one who deconstructs. To deconstruct is to reveal historicality, alternatives, interpretations, contradictions, absurdities and so forth. It is to pull apart everything, regardless of the "validity" (empty, totalizing word) of your interpretation. Probably the greatest example of deconstruction: http://www.theonion.com/articles/grad-student-deconstructs-takeout-menu,85/

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  89. So this once again asks for some clarity from you. What do you deploy here as your definition of "objective". It's problematic for "objective definition", as I pointed out above, but just "objective" seems a very mysterious concept for you.

    Can you provide an example that shows your definition of "objective" in action? If I can see that, I can perhaps apply it to Derrida, or make sense of comments like this from you. As it is, I'm stuck wondering what *your* definition is that prompts this kind of response.


    Touchstone, why do you insist on asking for definition after definition, even after I provide them? Go back and read the last one--the thing about a distance between two points. This would be an objective fact, non-interpretive, non-relative, stable, etc. Under Derrida's system and yours, we're stuck with representationalism, and every representation is infected by the trace. Therefore, there cannot be anything like an "objective" fact--something non-relative, non-interpretive and stable.

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  90. I just want to say, rank, that you are like... really really well read. And patient. Learning a lot just by reading your comments.

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  91. I love that grad student... HE ACTUALLY LIVES WHAT BELIEVES!!!

    I think that is more than what most of us do.

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  92. Bullpup,

    It's also worth remembering that what brains are and do on materialism is different from what they are and do on Aquinas' and other metaphysics. Even those non-intellectual operations are considered in different lights, and those same operations are still notoriously problematic under materialism.

    Good point.

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  93. Touchstone,

    It isn't clear to me how refactoring might be thought to be akin to Derrida's Deconstruction. Code is refactored in order to make it, say, cleaner, simpler, more elegant, more efficient, etc., and while the code itself is altered, the external behavior of the code is not, and the user won't (isn't supposed to) notice any difference. Derrida's Deconstruction doesn't seem to be about keeping external things the same.

    Refactoring is a disciplined technique for restructuring an existing body of code, altering its internal structure without changing its external behavior. Its heart is a series of small behavior preserving transformations. Each transformation (called a 'refactoring') does little, but a sequence of transformations can produce a significant restructuring. Since each refactoring is small, it's less likely to go wrong. The system is also kept fully working after each small refactoring, reducing the chances that a system can get seriously broken during the restructuring. -- Refactoring Home Page

    Since the software concept of refactoring does not seem (to me) to be akin to Derrida's Deconstruction, it follows that Derrida's Deconstruction does not seem (to me) to be akin to the software concept of refactoring. One software concept to which Derrida's Deconstruction does seem (to me) to be akin, however, is the that of obfuscation (the act of deliberately creating code--text!—that, while still easily executed by the computer, is difficult for humans to understand).

    Michel Foucault once characterized Derrida's prose style to me as "obscurantisme terroriste." The text is written so obscurely that you can't figure out exactly what the thesis is (hence "obscurantisme") and then when one criticizes it, the author says, "Vous m'avez mal compris; vous êtes idiot" (hence "terroriste"). -- John Searle

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  94. Touchstone,

    Here's an excerpt (in two parts) from Searle's 1983 review of Jonathan Culler's On Deconstruction: Theory and Criticism after Structuralism.

    (The review originally appeared here, but can be read in its entirety here.)

    "Deconstruction" is the name of a currently influential movement in American literary criticism. The underlying theory was developed not by literary critics but by a French professor of philosophy, Jacques Derrida, and many of his ideas are in turn owing to Nietzsche and Heidegger. Culler writes as a disciple of Derrida and his primary aim is to expound his master's philosophy and show how it "bears on the most important issues of literary theory" (p. 12).

    What exactly is deconstruction, and why has it become so influential in American literary criticism while largely ignored by American philosophers? I think if you asked most practicing deconstructionists for a definition they would not only be unable to provide one, but would regard the very request as a manifestation of that “logocentrism” which it is one of the aims of deconstruction to, well, deconstruct. By "logocentrism" they mean roughly the concern with truth, rationality, logic, and "the word" that marks the Western philosophical tradition. I think the best way to get at it, which would be endorsed by many of its practitioners, is to see it, at least initially, as a set of methods for dealing with texts, a set of textual strategies aimed in large part at subverting logocentric tendencies. One of the several merits of Culler’s book is that he provides a catalog of these strategies and a characterization of their common aims:

    To deconstruct a discourse is to show how it undermines the philosophy it asserts, or the hierarchical oppositions on which it relies, by identifying in the text the rhetorical operations that produce the supposed ground of argument, the key concept or premise [p. 86].

    There are numerous such strategies but at least three stand out. First, and most important, the deconstructionist is on the lookout for any of the traditional binary oppositions in Western intellectual history, e.g., speech/writing, male/female, truth/fiction, literal/metaphorical, signified/signifier, reality/appearance. In such oppositions, the deconstructionist claims that the first or left-hand term is given a superior status over the right-hand term, which is regarded "as a complication, a negation, a manifestation, or a disruption of the first" (p. 93). These hierarchical oppositions allegedly lie at the very heart of logocentrism with its obsessive interest in rationality, logic, and the search for truth.

    The deconstructionist wants to undermine these oppositions, and so undermine logocentrism, by first reversing the hierarchy, by trying to show that the right-hand term is really the prior term and that the left-hand term is just a special case of the right-hand term; the right-hand term is the condition of possibility of the left-hand term. This move gives some very curious results. It turns out that speech is really a form of writing, understanding a form of misunderstanding, and that what we think of as meaningful language is just a free play of signifiers or an endless process of grafting texts onto texts...


    (cont)

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  95. Deconstruction, as Culler describes it, may not sound very promising, but the test of a method of textual analysis lies in its results, so let us now turn to some of the examples where Culler and Derrida show us how deconstruction is supposed to work. Culler's paradigm example, the one he presents to show how the various characterizations and operations of deconstruction "might converge in practice" (p. 86), is what he describes as Nietzsche's deconstruction of causality.

    Suppose one feels a pain. This causes one to look for a cause and spying, perhaps, a pin, one posits a link and reverses the perceptual or phenomenal order, pain…pin, to produce a causal sequence, pin…pain. "The fragment of the outside world of which we become conscious comes after the effect that has been produced on us and is projected a posteriori as its 'cause"' [p. 86].

    So far this does not sound very deconstructive of anything. Culler thinks otherwise, and to get an idea of the deconstructionist style of argument it is worth quoting his commentary at some length:

    Let us be as explicit as possible about what this simple example implies…. The experience of pain, it is claimed, causes us to discover the pin [his italics] and thus causes the production of a cause [my [i.e, Searle's] italics]. To deconstruct causality one must operate with the notion of cause and apply it to causation itself [p. 87].

    Thus one is "asserting the indispensability of causation while denying it any rigorous justification" (p. 88).

    Furthermore,


    (cont (two is really three))

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  96. the deconstruction reverses the hierarchical opposition of the causal scheme. The distinction between cause and effect makes the cause an origin, logically and temporally prior. The effect is derived, secondary, dependent upon the cause. Without exploring the reasons for or the implications of this hierarchization, let us note that, working within the opposition, the deconstruction upsets the hierarchy by producing an exchange of properties. If the effect is what causes the cause to become a cause, then the effect, not the cause, should be treated as the origin. By showing that the argument which elevates cause can be used to favor effect, one uncovers and undoes the rhetorical operation responsible for the hierarchization and one produces a significant displacement [p. 88; my italics].

    I believe that far from demonstrating the power of deconstruction, Culler's discussion of this example is a tissue of confusions. Here are several of the most glaring mistakes.

    1. There is nothing whatever in the example to support the view that the effect "causes the production of a cause" or that the effect "causes the cause to become a cause." The experience of pain causes us to look for its cause and thus indirectly causes the discovery of the cause. The idea that it produces the cause is exactly counter to what the example actually shows.

    2. The word "origin" is being used in two quite distinct senses. If "origin" means causal origin then the pin is the causal origin of the pain. If "origin" means epistemic origin, how we go about finding out, then the experience of pain is the origin of our discovery of its cause. But it is a simple confusion to conclude from this that there is some unitary sense of "origin" in which "the effect and not the cause should be treated as the origin."

    3. There isn't any logical hierarchy between cause and effect in the first place since the two are correlative terms: one is defined in terms of the other. The OED, for example, defines "cause" as "that which produces an effect" and it defines "effect" as "something caused or produced."

    4. Contrary to what Culler claims, nothing in the example shows that causation lacks any "rigorous justification," or that any "significant displacement" has come about. Our common sense prejudices about causation deserve careful scrutiny and criticism, but nothing in Culler's discussion forces any change in our most naive views about causation.

    It would no doubt be unfair to condemn deconstruction on the basis of this one example, even if it is Culler's paradigm example of the virtues of the deconstructive method. So let us now turn our attention to Derrida's favorite example of deconstruction, the deconstruction of the opposition between speech and writing to show that writing is really prior, that speech is really a form of writing...

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  97. I just want to say, rank, that you are like... really really well read. And patient. Learning a lot just by reading your comments.

    Ha! Thanks. I'm no expert on this stuff, but I guess what reading I've done has paid off.

    Glenn,

    Searle is not the world's most informed Derridean, but his criticisms are still mostly valid. Derrida's response, from my reading, was to simply beg the question over and over again by deconstructing Searle's arguments.

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  98. @Glenn,

    It isn't clear to me how refactoring might be thought to be akin to Derrida's Deconstruction. Code is refactored in order to make it, say, cleaner, simpler, more elegant, more efficient, etc., and while the code itself is altered, the external behavior of the code is not, and the user won't (isn't supposed to) notice any difference. Derrida's Deconstruction doesn't seem to be about keeping external things the same.
    Refactoring sheds light on the semantics of the API, the client-contract supplied by the code to users of the code. For example, in a recent refactoring project we were reconfiguring some of the machinery for a part of the class graph that features idempotency for many of the class methods. This is a guarantee of sorts that calling the method won't change the state of the object. Well, the refactoring process illuminated some of the subtleties involved, parts of the code where some nuance was needed in the documentation, or better yet, some changes needed to be made in a future reworking of the API to provide explicit semantics at the call level. The existing calls that were given as "idempotent" were generally "instance-idempotent", but many of them had class-scoped side effects due to a singleton instance of debugging and garbage-collection machinery, meaning that the class instance did not change with one or more calls to the method, but the "system" changed in ways that were not clear or true to the claim of idempotency.

    It was through this refactoring process that the subtleties and internal conflicts came to light. Just looking at the code that directly implements the calls did not and could not reveal this, as the problem obtained in superclass code which was deceptive-by-accident as it used some tricks with pointer casting to deceive the compiler into believing the "const" status of the method had been preserved when it technically had not.

    Even the "history" aspect of deconstruction is relevant on this topic, as in this case, the reason for the "kluge" that violated strict idempotence was a pragmatic one tied to the history of the project. And for the engineers reworking the code, revisiting this history and the assumptions in the code was crucial for design decisions going forward. It would be great to have just made the code clean and unequivocal about its claims of idempotency, but the historical reasons for the "hack" remain crucially important for satisfying other architectural requirements of the system -- the garbage collector and object manager need to violate those promises to some extent to ensure the integrity of the underlying framework.

    The result of this refactoring was not just cleaned up code; it produced a much deeper understanding of the semantics of the entrypoints in that part of the library. There still remain some inconsistencies, and if we were to start over, we have a better idea of ways to design the system to avoid these conflicts, but we now as a group have a grasp of the complexities that attach to this concept of idempotency in this part of the class hierarchy, and the history that produced it, which will inform not just further incremental updates, but improvements in major version upgrades.

    And refactoring per se seeks to preserve API semantics and client contracts generally, but it is a major catalyst for overhauling the code base architecturally. Again, this strikes me as similar to Deconstruction, in that the analysis of the concept (or the code, here) gives rise to new and better ways of thinking about the issue. Our refactoring on this has been the basis for our first cut at a new design that will incorporate lots of learning and new knowledge into a major upgrade to the platform in the next year or so.

    That's geeky enough to make your eyes glaze over, I suppose, but hey, you asked for some detail on this.

    -TS

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  99. @Glenn,

    Since the software concept of refactoring does not seem (to me) to be akin to Derrida's Deconstruction, it follows that Derrida's Deconstruction does not seem (to me) to be akin to the software concept of refactoring. One software concept to which Derrida's Deconstruction does seem (to me) to be akin, however, is the that of obfuscation (the act of deliberately creating code--text!—that, while still easily executed by the computer, is difficult for humans to understand).

    I think this confuses complexity with obfuscation. I can understand the impulse to see Deconstruction as obfuscation -- I often have a bit of frustration at what seems like lots of detours and imponderables being introduced, pushing clarity further down the path -- but if you look at what the aims are, here, it's "clarity through complexity". If I suppose that matters just need to be somewhat simple, univocal and stable, because that's how I want them to be, then Deconstruction is going to have a hard time getting truck with me. But this is where Derrida would say *I* am the one obfuscating, the one over-simplifying and 'bit-crushing' in the interests of ease of handling and expediency.

    Per my refactoring example of 'claims of idempotency', a "deconstruction" of those claims made at a superficial level in the API revealed those claims to be obfuscatory, deceptive, at least on the margins (generally the "const" semantics are upheld, but in some runtime contexts, what you *thought* would NOT happen did, to the detriment of the system's performance and integrity). There was more complexity in the details, which is just a truism, but which is also the substance of Derrida's emphasis on the analysis in deconstruction. The code at the top level always lies, if just a little bit, and this gets more and more true as the code base grows and becomes more complex, with more and more layers of abstraction and interaction beneath it.



    Michel Foucault once characterized Derrida's prose style to me as "obscurantisme terroriste." The text is written so obscurely that you can't figure out exactly what the thesis is (hence "obscurantisme") and then when one criticizes it, the author says, "Vous m'avez mal compris; vous êtes idiot" (hence "terroriste"). -- John Searle

    Yeah, that's a notorious bit of the history of these guys, I think that was put out there via a New York Times piece by Foucault, IIRC, and Derrida was none too happy about it. I know that having to read Derrida in English (I don't speak French) makes this more of a challenge, but even allowing for that, I'm not a big fan of Derrida as a writer; one of the reasons I linked to a couple of videos of him at Oxford is that I think he comes across with more clarity and definition as a speaker than he does in his writing. But the basic debate I think turns on the question of whether cascading levels of complexity and indirection are fundamentally 'challenging but illuminating' or simply 'obfuscatory'. Clearly, Searle leans toward the latter. From what I've read, and what I understand of many of his criticisms and his affirmations, there's a lot to be said for the former.

    -TS

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  100. Touchstone,

    Let's split 'deconstruction' into two parts: what you do, and why you do it. I can see the loose similarity you convey (@ September 4, 2012 7:15 AM) above regarding "what you do". The divergence or dissimilarity in my mind (though, clearly, it is your experience about which you write) comes with the second part, "why you do it."

    But what then is the ultimate purpose of deconstruction? Where are we heading with deconstruction? For Derrida (1995:324), the answer to this question does not rest in the domain of knowledge, but in the domain of responsibility or rather responsibilities, for as he states: "Responsibilities are at stake which, in order to elicit decisions and events, must not follow knowledge, nor proceed from knowledge like consequences or effects. Otherwise we would unfold a program and behave, at best, like intelligent missiles. These responsibilities, which will determine as you say 'where it is heading' are heterogeneous to the order of formalizable knowledge, and probably or no doubt to all the concepts upon which was built, I would even say arrested, the idea of responsibility or decision [conscious self, will, intentionality, autonomy and so
    on."
    -- Deconstruction and re-thinking education


    - - - - -

    I think this confuses complexity with obfuscation. I can understand the impulse to see Deconstruction as obfuscation -- I often have a bit of frustration at what seems like lots of detours and imponderables being introduced, pushing clarity further down the path...

    That state of frustration of the mind--or, rather that state of confusion in the mind to which frustration is the (or a) response--is pretty much what I was getting at when saying that Deconstruction is akin to obfuscation. I wasn't clear about this earlier (looking back, in fact, I see I mangled my meaning rather well).

    -- but if you look at what the aims are, here, it's "clarity through complexity". If I suppose that matters just need to be somewhat simple, univocal and stable, because that's how I want them to be, then Deconstruction is going to have a hard time getting truck with me. But this is where Derrida would say *I* am the one obfuscating, the one over-simplifying and 'bit-crushing' in the interests of ease of handling and expediency.

    If this is the case, then mightn't Derrida (were he alive) chide you and your team for the refactoring success you mention above? Serving two masters can get kind of tricky.

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  101. Serving two masters can get kind of tricky.

    I'm guessing you recognize where this comes from. And that you also recognize I'm not employing quite it in quite that sense here.

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  102. ...I'm not employing it quite in that sense here.

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  103. Rank:

    Have you read much Heidegger? His point has nothing to do with that. The "present" is not time only, but rather the idea of the present-at-hand. The metaphysics of presence is a certain way of understanding Being--namely, by understanding Being as something that is "there". If something is not there, then it is not Being. However, Heidegger attempts to show that this is in fact a simplistic idea of Being. In one of his lectures, he used the example of a water pitcher, which is not used for what is there--the shape--, but for what is not there: the empty space inside. The Forms, on the other hand, are always fully "there": totally present. This is certainly an issue of time, but Heidegger tore apart traditional notions of time. You're using "present" in a simplistic sense that he likely would not have agreed with.

    I’ll respond to the rest of your comments later as it is a busy day, but will briefly respond to this here.

    Nothing that you said seems to contradict my point that the metaphysics of presence is prioritizes what presented as happening here or there in the present moment. The classical analogy is to vision, which simply sees what is presently occurring, and intellectual insight is supposed to be analogous to this in which the intellect sees the truth as presented to itself. I mean, it’s all right there. You cannot have an account of the present without including temporality, because even simultaneity involves something happening at the same time. So, a metaphysics of presence, which is what Heidegger felt the ancient Greeks and medieval scholastics were up to, is ultimately about associating being with something happening in the present moment, whether the present of a human being or the eternal present of God.

    What Heidegger argued was that present-at-hand, which involves the theoretical perception of something in the present moment in order to understand it, is parasitic upon a more fundamental and basic kind of engagement with the world, which he called ready-to-hand. Ready-to-hand is the unreflective interaction we have with beings in the world that we utilize for a variety of purposes that are simply outside of our awareness, and thus not present. Once they become part of our awareness, i.e. present-at-hand, then we cannot use them in the same way. It is like learning to ride a bicycle, which originally requires a great deal of concentration and focus upon exactly what you need to do right now, and which then is replaced by riding a bicycle unconsciously and without awareness. The former is present-at-hand and the latter is ready-to-hand. They cannot occur at the same time.

    So, his argument is that the more basic form of engagement with the world does not involve presence at all, and that presence is a derivative kind of engagement with the world, and thus should not be given the priority that it does in the metaphysics of presence. Furthermore, what is present to us is actually characterized by a complex variety of factors that are not present at all, but are still influencing what is happening. And that relates to your point about temporality refuting the metaphysics of presence, because the present is characterized by both the past (i.e. having been thrown into a situation) and the future (i.e. projecting possibilities into the future), which are absent, and yet influencing the present moment of existence. And that is why Dasein is essentially temporal, i.e. its existence is determined by being thrown from a past and projecting towards the future, which is all happening in the moment of existence, and yet is not present at that moment.

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  104. @Glenn


    Let's split 'deconstruction' into two parts: what you do, and why you do it. I can see the loose similarity you convey (@ September 4, 2012 7:15 AM) above regarding "what you do". The divergence or dissimilarity in my mind (though, clearly, it is your experience about which you write) comes with the second part, "why you do it."


    I'll be the first to say that software refactoring is a sketchy bridge to Derrida's ideas about responsibility. As analogy, it probably breaks down in terms of Derrida's ethical motivations for deconstruction. That said, software development, like so many other domains, has changed significantly in light of postmodern thinking over the last decade or so. If you are familiar with the "agile software development" movement, that is largely the manifestation of postmodern sensibilities creeping in to software.

    Like all sorts of new cultural developments, there's something of a Hegelian dialectic at work here. Agile (or the more "deconstructionist" parts of it, anyway), are the Antithesis to the Thesis of "Waterfall" and other traditional, top-down methodologies. There's clearly some real ground gained in the process, in terms of Agile's results in improving computing platforms, software quality, development speed, etc., but ultimate some kind of Synthesis settles out, with the community integrating what proves itself useful and productive in the New, and keep what has not been bested in the Old. Just a quick quote from the Manifesto for Agile Software Development site is suggestive of this new heuristic:

    Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
    Working software over comprehensive documentation
    Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
    Responding to change over following a plan


    This has come about from a process which strikes me as quite "deconstructionist". In fact, one of the reasons I got interested in this area of philosophy originally at all was because of some of the critical assaults on traditional software development that started happening around the time of the Dot Com Bust (circa 2000, that is). What is interesting to consider over the last ten years or so is how much better so many parts of the software development discipline have gotten as a result of those critiques. Enterprise IT has largely stayed in the stone age, but even so there are many corporate software teams that are now quite adept at Agile development, and with very good results.

    Processes and tools have not gone away(!). Neither have documentation or contracts, or plans. But a many of the underlying assumptions have been rooted out, examined critically, and found wanting in terms of their overall contribution to the goals we seek. So things get re-ordered and re-conceived and a new kind of skepticism towards "normative" development paradigms and brittle, one-size-fits-all solutions develops. And the thing is, now ten years or so into this (maybe it really only got going in full force with David Heinemeier Hanson's release of Ruby on Rails in the mid 2000s), we are already looking beyond "Agile". In some ways, it's "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

    What's different is the meta-heuristic of continual breaking down, critiquing and reformulation. "Agile" is being critiqued and overthrown in much the same way traditional software methods were before it.


    -TS

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  105. Glenn,

    When Derrida talks about "responsibility" there, he's specifically referring to "responsibility to the Other". That is, we must deconstruct because it does the least damage to every Other: it gives everything a voice, even if that voice is violent and chaotic. So, you're definitely right. There is nothing of simplification in deconstruction. It's philosophical maximalism.

    dguller,

    I think I more-or-less agree. It seems like we've been using different words to describe the same things.

    Looks like you're even further into Heidegger than I am, though--I still hadn't gotten a handle on the ready-to-hand and what exactly he meant by "thrown-ness". That's a very helpful summary.

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  106. @Glenn

    That state of frustration of the mind--or, rather that state of confusion in the mind to which frustration is the (or a) response--is pretty much what I was getting at when saying that Deconstruction is akin to obfuscation. I wasn't clear about this earlier (looking back, in fact, I see I mangled my meaning rather well).

    OK. In software development, though, at least in my experience, obfuscation is a manifestation of laziness primarily, and poor design patterns secondarily. There are cases where people obfuscate code to purposely make it opaque or inscrutable for others, as means of protecting their intellectual property, or maybe just trying to enhance their job security in unethical ways, but generally, obscure coding is a sign of cutting corners instead of digger deeper, tearing into details.

    -- but if you look at what the aims are, here, it's "clarity through complexity". If I suppose that matters just need to be somewhat simple, univocal and stable, because that's how I want them to be, then Deconstruction is going to have a hard time getting truck with me. But this is where Derrida would say *I* am the one obfuscating, the one over-simplifying and 'bit-crushing' in the interests of ease of handling and expediency.


    If this is the case, then mightn't Derrida (were he alive) chide you and your team for the refactoring success you mention above? Serving two masters can get kind of tricky.

    Maybe I wasn't sufficient clear in how I put that. The refactoring is disruptive, and tends to undermine our goals of "simple, univocal and stable". But this is the key insight, I think, as it relates to both my code base and your texts: the understandings of "simplicity, univocity and stability" were *illusory*. The refactoring didn't actually destabilize the semantics itself; instead, it UNCOVERED the instability that was always there, and made it more explicit. That is indeed annoying at times, as a development manager, I would like to just get and keep "simple, univocal and stable". But on the whole, better to understand more deeply, and deal with the conflicts and complexities. Those illusions were just the seeds of much bigger problems coming down the road if they had not been identified when they were.

    But perhaps I still misunderstand your basis for thinking Derrida would disapprove, never mind my general apathy to any putative conclusion from an undead-Derrida. I have mountains of code that have to get written, well, fast and to last (for a while, anyway).


    Serving two masters can get kind of tricky.

    I'm guessing you recognize where this comes from. And that you also recognize I'm not employing quite it in quite that sense here.

    Ahh yes, Matthew 6. No, didn't take it that way. But then again I think I understood something else by "success" in our refactoring than what you apparently took away.

    Life's tricky, though, either way. ;-)

    -TS

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  107. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  108. Rank:

    I'm not fan of Caputo, and his writing here seems to muddy the waters. The first part is accurate, but it happens to be exactly what I said before: signifiers meeting signifiers, forever. The second part--about objectivity--is blatantly false. Objectivity is impossible in a world overwhelmed by Derridean representationalism, and Derrida himself realizes this. He denies that objectivity--a beyond-the-text perspective, outside of historicality--is possible. He may certainly redefine the word "objective", as he's wont to do, but this says nothing about the possibility of by-the-books objectivity.

    First, how can you not be a fan of Caputo? He’s funny, interesting and incisive.

    Second, from what I understand, what he denies is that we can talk about or know the transcendental signified, i.e. the thing-in-itself, completely independent of any human perspective or interpretive framework. And that is because by virtue of talking or thinking about it, we have already ensnared it into our representational system. All our beliefs and concepts are from a particular perspective, and it is impossible to achieve the View From Nowhere, as Nagel called it. That does not mean that we cannot know anything from our perspective and from our particular interpretive framework, much like we can perceive external objects through our particular visual apparatus.

    Third, even to reply that such an argument presupposes that one is simultaneously inside and outside the system, which is supposed to be impossible, is not a counter-argument from Derrida’s standpoint. His whole career is about uncovering such impossibilities in multiple systems, and showing that such systems presuppose such impossibilities as conditions for their very possibility. You would think that such a state of affairs should bring those systems crashing down, but it doesn’t. The structures still stand, but a little crooked, a little unsteady, with less authority than before. It has enough stability to stay erect, but not permanently, and only for a transient period of time. And that contingency is what prevents such a system from becoming fossilized as a pristine and pure structure that stands for all eternity. That contingency is what prevents totalitarian and authoritarian interpretations from assuming total control. That contingency provides some wiggle room, some opening, some crack for something new, something Other to come.

    I meant that, for Derrida, history is one long series of contradictions. The historicality of every signifier is littered with irreconcilable contradictions and absurdities. Deconstruction is an orgiastic affirmation of these things: a true Dionysian paradise.

    Except that it’s not. You cannot ignore what Derrida says deconstruction is about, unless you want to attack a straw man. It is not an “anything goes” philosophy. He has rejected such an interpretation time and time again. Furthermore, it is not about unraveling the textuality of meaning into incoherence and nonsense. It accepts stability, but only a contingent stability with openings towards a different possible state of affairs in the future. And even the play of signifiers is not a random activity, but like all play, has rules that provides the context of the play. You cannot play a game without rules, and you cannot have a play of signifiers without some boundaries, even if those boundaries are only transient and temporary, eventually to be transcended in a new round of play. Again, you confuse stability with permanence. You can have transient and temporary and contingent stability, after all.

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  109. Rank:

    What is "meaning"? It's deconstructed, too. There is no such thing as meaning. The only "meaning" for Derrida lies in differance itself, which is, of course, non-existent. As the trace, it is what Derrida calls the Wholly Other: that which has always already vanished, has never existed, is always arriving and will never arrive. The enormity of the Wholly Other is where we find significance and the sublime, above "meaning"--which is merely a representation whose own meaning has always already vanished. Everything is always grasping for the Wholly Other, where it gains its meaning; but the Wholly Other is unknowable and unreachable.

    The Other is supposed to be that missing piece of the puzzle that would provide us with total and complete presence. It can never arrive, because we never know what the future may bring. As Mark Twain once said, “history doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes”. Some aspects of the future are within the boundaries of the conceivable, and other aspects of the future are outside the boundaries of the conceivable, such that we cannot ever see them coming, and even when they arrive, we will not be able to completely assimilate them, because there will be aspects that destabilize the system that is trying to appropriate them. That is why it is always arriving, but never arrives. We are saturated by more than we can know, by more than we can interpret, and thus we are saturated by the Other. We can never achieve a permanent and total state of presence, because of these openings, traces and differing and deferring elements, i.e. differance.

    And here’s a nice quote from Caputo (I know, I know. I really like him):

    “But things get really interesting when something radically new, or absolutely new, happens, which is what we mean by the wholly other. For that would represent, to use Lyotard’s formulation, not a new move in an old game, but the invention of a new game altogether. Then we are sent back to the drawing boards, forced to reexamine basic assumptions, a little bit stunned, shocked, amazed and confused … But when something wholly new happens, the shared assumptions and the agreements about criteria are broken up, the preexisting audience is dispersed and this work is on its own. Then the new production will simply die of its oddity, perish of its own strangeness, or ‘catch on’, which means that a new community and new audience will form around it, and begin to conceputalize and formulate what has happened. By the time that has happened, the new work or production will have been imitated and assimilated, new criteria will have been formulated, the crowd of critics and commentators who have gathered around the scene to see what just happened, will have regained their composure” (More Radical Hermeneutics, p. 176).

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  110. You seem to need a bit of a refresher in exactly what deconstruction is. It is Nietzsche's "pure affirmation"; a Dionysian "everything-at-onceness" that infinitely tears itself apart and puts itself back together. There's nothing painstaking about it: it's pure play, chaos, destruction. Deconstruction is always happening even when we aren't performing it. Texts simply deconstruct themselves. The historicality--the trace, is always already there, subverting any metaphysics of presence.

    No, you are wrong. That is the caricature. Derrida denies it. Caputo denies it. I can quote both to support this position, and so why not take them at their word? Perhaps those who endorse deconstruction as “pure play, chaos, destruction” are presenting a caricature and straw man? After all, Dionysus was all about the overflow, the superabundance, that overwhelms and submerges all that cannot resist its power. This is nothing like deconstruction, which is more about the quiet unraveling of presence, the sudden jolt of awareness that something is out of kilter, that expectations have been violated, and so on. It is not about power and strength, but rather about weakness, the inability to hold things together forever, because of their inherent instability.

    Not the same thing. The unknowability of God deals with the limits of logic, of which God is the source. God is so simple that he cannot be known or restricted rationally. This, however, does not undermine the rational systems that we use to learn of his existence: these are stable. Derrida's Wholly Other does undermine those systems. The trace evacuates every representation of content. Not only is the Wholly Other unknowable, but it destroys all methods for even positing its existence. Derrida affirmed the former but flip-flopped on the latter, since he knew that his whole structure would crumble into relativism if he did.

    Then why did Aquinas reject his systematic theology as akin to “straw” after he was shocked by a divine experience? I would say that that would amount to a form of undermining the system, particularly if something happened -- an exposure to the Other perhaps? -- that subsequently put the system into a new perspective in which all its goodness and truth fade into nothingness. Naturally, it does not follow that the system itself is worthless, much like the instability uncovered by deconstruction in a system does not cause it to self-destruct into nothingness. It just never looks the same again, and lacks its earlier luster and shine.

    Having read the relevant passages in the contra Gentiles, I can assure you that he avoids the nonsensical dialectic between prime matter and pure actuality, which reduced Aristotle's system to an onto-theological discourse of totality. Prime matter is not opposed to God, but is created by him, held in existence by him. Working from here, he is able to correct the absurdities of Aristotle's philosophy.

    Like I said, I’ll let you know. :)

    The Beatific Vision is not a totality, since it's a vision of the infinite. The infinite can never be exhausted, and so it can never be closed, "presentized" and totalized.

    God is present to himself as a totality, even though he is infinite. After all, he is his essence, which is his knowledge.

    This is what Derrida's deconstruction is, plain and simple. Nothing more, nothing less.

    To a certain extent, but not entirely.

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  111. First, how can you not be a fan of Caputo? He’s funny, interesting and incisive.

    Largely his ignorance of Aquinas. In his book Heidegger and Aquinas, he goes so far as to condemn him as an onto-theologian. Hart called him out on this in The Beauty of the Infinite, and showed how ignorant it truly is. I can't say that I've read much of Caputo's work--it's just that my impressions of him have all been negative.

    Second, from what I understand, what he denies is that we can talk about or know the transcendental signified, i.e. the thing-in-itself, completely independent of any human perspective or interpretive framework. And that is because by virtue of talking or thinking about it, we have already ensnared it into our representational system. All our beliefs and concepts are from a particular perspective, and it is impossible to achieve the View From Nowhere, as Nagel called it. That does not mean that we cannot know anything from our perspective and from our particular interpretive framework, much like we can perceive external objects through our particular visual apparatus.

    Exactly. This is exactly what I've been saying. Now let me quote Nagel as well (from The Last Word), to show why Derrida's position must necessarily be incoherent.

    "Suppose, to take an extreme example, we are asked to believe that our logical and mathematical and empirical reasoning manifest historically contingent and culturally local habits of thought and have no wider validity than that. This appears on the one hand to be a thought about how things really are, and on the other hand to deny that we are capable of such thoughts. Any claim as radical and universal as that would have to be supported by a powerful argument, but the claim itself seems to leave us without the capacity for such arguments.

    Or is the judgment supposed to apply to itself? I believe that would leave us without the possibility of thinking anything at all. Claims to the effect that a type of judgment expresses a local point of view are inherently objective in intent: They suggest a picture of the true sources of those judgments which places them in an unconditional context. The judgment of relativity or conditionality cannot be applied to the judgment of relativity itself. To put it schematically, the claim 'Everything is subjective' must be nonsense, for it would itself have to be subjective or objective. But it can't be objective, since in that case it would be false if true. And it can't be subjective, because then it would not rule out any objective claim, including the claim that it is objectively false. There may be some subjectivists, perhaps styling themselves as pragmatists, who present subjectivism as applying even to itself. But then it does not call for a reply, since it is just a report of what the subjectivist finds it agreeable to say. If he also invites us to join him, we need not offer any reason for declining, since he has offered us no reason to accept."

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  112. Third, even to reply that such an argument presupposes that one is simultaneously inside and outside the system, which is supposed to be impossible, is not a counter-argument from Derrida’s standpoint.

    I don't see how Derrida can escape from the self-refuting position outlined by Nagel above. Even if he begs the question and uses deconstruction to "prove" the consistency of deconstruction, he still fails.

    Except that it’s not. You cannot ignore what Derrida says deconstruction is about, unless you want to attack a straw man. It is not an “anything goes” philosophy. He has rejected such an interpretation time and time again. Furthermore, it is not about unraveling the textuality of meaning into incoherence and nonsense. It accepts stability, but only a contingent stability with openings towards a different possible state of affairs in the future.

    Let me put it this way. Derrida says that every representation, every action is one of violence. The "worst violence" is the violence of the totality: the Apollonian violence. The "least violence" is an opening up of every crack to let difference out: the Dionysian violence. In response to Levinas in the '60s, who suggested (I believe) that we should resort to quietism--any representation at all is strangulation of the Other--, Derrida wrote that this was, in fact, the worst violence. By staying silent, we bring the Apollonian totality upon ourselves. The same applies if we tear apart everything in deconstruction: we would be reduced to babble, and so to the Apollonian totality where difference is erased.

    Remember, this is an "economy of violence", and so we should pragmatically keep the bare minimum of representations steady in order to tear apart the rest. This was Derrida's entire game plan. Everything goes, but, if we reduce ourselves to gibberish, then we've wrecked the entire project. The only option is to write under erasure, effacing the sign even as we put it to the page. We write and then cross it out: we don't really mean what we say, but we say it anyway. It destabilizes even our own pronouncements. Derrida, writing under erasure, doesn't even pretend that his own writing is stable. Nothing can ever be stable.

    Some aspects of the future are within the boundaries of the conceivable, and other aspects of the future are outside the boundaries of the conceivable, such that we cannot ever see them coming, and even when they arrive, we will not be able to completely assimilate them, because there will be aspects that destabilize the system that is trying to appropriate them. That is why it is always arriving, but never arrives. We are saturated by more than we can know, by more than we can interpret, and thus we are saturated by the Other. We can never achieve a permanent and total state of presence, because of these openings, traces and differing and deferring elements, i.e. differance.

    I have never heard this interpretation of Derrida. From my own reading, it seems incredibly off the mark. Perhaps it's Caputo's own spin on the enterprise? Derrida was a strong proponent of Levinas's system, and he became more of one in his late work. The Wholly Other is always arriving because the "meaning" contained in the trace is always just out of reach: but it cannot ever appear. The Wholly Other cannot ever disrupt a system. There is nothing "new". (Caputo doesn't sound very Nietzschean, in that regard.) Whatever is "new" is always already old, always already historical. So, yeah. No idea where this interpretation is coming from, but it seems unfaithful to both the early Derrida and the late, hyper-Levinasian Derrida.

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  113. No, you are wrong. That is the caricature. Derrida denies it. Caputo denies it. I can quote both to support this position, and so why not take them at their word? Perhaps those who endorse deconstruction as “pure play, chaos, destruction” are presenting a caricature and straw man? After all, Dionysus was all about the overflow, the superabundance, that overwhelms and submerges all that cannot resist its power. This is nothing like deconstruction, which is more about the quiet unraveling of presence, the sudden jolt of awareness that something is out of kilter, that expectations have been violated, and so on. It is not about power and strength, but rather about weakness, the inability to hold things together forever, because of their inherent instability.

    This, right here, shows that you still have a lot to learn about Derrida. What do you think he's talking about when he says that deconstruction is "affirmation"? There is only one option: Nietzschean creative destruction, just like nearly every other post-modernist, from Deleuze to Foucault. What do you think he's talking about when he mentions "violence"? Again, only one option: the will to power.

    Haven't you heard about the Apollonian-Dionysian dialectic? Derrida is unabashedly the latter--just like every single post-modernist.

    Then why did Aquinas reject his systematic theology as akin to “straw” after he was shocked by a divine experience? I would say that that would amount to a form of undermining the system, particularly if something happened -- an exposure to the Other perhaps? -- that subsequently put the system into a new perspective in which all its goodness and truth fade into nothingness. Naturally, it does not follow that the system itself is worthless, much like the instability uncovered by deconstruction in a system does not cause it to self-destruct into nothingness. It just never looks the same again, and lacks its earlier luster and shine.

    With Caputo, you've completely misunderstood Derrida's idea of the Other and of deconstruction.

    Further, Aquinas's own system explains this event. He experienced a direct vision of God through intellectus, after which the ratio of his system, which had led him to this point, seemed like straw. He affirms in his own writings that the knowledge of intellectus is higher than the knowledge of ratio, and that the knowledge of the mystic is therefore higher than the knowledge of the theologian.

    God is present to himself as a totality, even though he is infinite. After all, he is his essence, which is his knowledge.

    He isn't. God is infinite, and his knowledge of himself is infinite. There cannot be anything coherently called a "totality of presence" here. In fact, because of Trinitarian theology, God is always already Other from the start, in Hart's words. Either way, though, an infinite comprehension cannot force infinity into totalized presence, because there is no end either to the comprehension or to the infinity itself. Hart explains this in his book.

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  114. Touchstone,

    If you are familiar with the "agile software development" movement, that is largely the manifestation of postmodern sensibilities creeping in to software.

    In the general sense that 'postmodern' points to something that is somewhat beyond what is, let us say, currently in vogue or currently the state of accepted attitude, belief and/or practice, I'm sure I can see this. In this general sense, Aquinas himself would have qualified, in his time, as having been 'postmodern'.

    But in the more particular sense of the postmodernism that is currently in vogue, modern postmodernism (to wit, broad skepticism, subjectivism or relativism, and a suspicion, distrust or eschewal of reason and rationality), I confess that I do not see it. If this were to be the sense that you mean, then you'd be saying, in effect, that the most rational of all of man's creations--the computer (and all the attendant practices that go along with its development and utilization (which would, of course, include the software side))--becomes increasingly rational by severing it from the rationality in which it is (or, alas, was) rooted.

    Maybe I wasn't sufficient clear in how I put that. The refactoring is disruptive, and tends to undermine our goals of "simple, univocal and stable".

    Then it isn't refactoring that you're talking about, but 'refactoring'. As a software manager concerned with getting working, reliable software out the door, there is no need for you to care about or even understand the difference. This doesn't make the difference non-existent or unreal, just not germane to doing your job well.

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  115. Touchstone,

    Ahh yes, Matthew 6. No, didn't take it that way. But then again I think I understood something else by "success" in our refactoring than what you apparently took away.

    Life's tricky, though, either way. ;-)


    It certainly is.

    - - - - -

    In other news, you're comments about the 'refactoring' case lead me to surmise that you've had the experience of 'having the bubble':

    Over the past few years, my colleagues and I have studied the operation of aircraft carrier flight operations, nuclear power plants, air traffic control centers, and other complex, potentially hazardous advanced technologies, using interviews and field observations to find out what it is that makes some operations reliable and others not. Out of this research has emerged the beginning of a better language for understanding the difference between these complex, critical, and reliability-demanding operations and more mundane and ordinary ones with which most of us have direct experience.

    Every group of operators we interviewed has developed a specialized language that sets them apart. Although every group expressed clearly their very special response to the demands for integration and interpretation placed on them, only in the Navy did we find a compact term for expressing it. Those who man the combat operations centers of U.S. Navy ships use the term "having the bubble" to indicate that they have been able to construct and maintain the cognitive map that allows them to integrate such diverse inputs as combat status, information flows from sensors and remote observation, and the real-time status and performance of the various weapons and systems into a single picture of the ship's overall situation and operational status.

    For the casual visitor to the operations center, the multitude of charts and radar displays, the continuous flow of information from console operators and remote sources of surveillance and intelligence, the various displays that indicate weapons systems status, what aircraft are aloft, and who is in them, the inputs from ship and senior staff, are overwhelming. What surprised us at first was that even experienced officers did not attempt to make overall status assessments on the basis of a casual visit. Only when you have the bubble do these pieces begin to fall into place as parts of a large, coherent picture.

    Given the large amount of information, and the critical nature of the task, creating and maintaining the required state of representational mapping, situational awareness, and cognitive and task integration is a considerable strain. On many ships, operations officer shifts are held to no more than two hours. "Losing the bubble" is a serious and ever-present threat; it has become incorporated into the general conversation of operators as representing a state of incomprehension or misunderstanding even in an ambiance of good information. In principle, the process could be carried through by logical, deductive chains of reasoning even if the bubble were lost, but even the most experienced of tactical officers would rather relinquish operational control if he loses the bubble than try to press on without it...


    -- Rochlin, Gene I., Trapped in the Net: The Unanticipated Consequences of Computerization, Chapter 7: Expert Operators and Critical Tasks, Having the Bubble, (C) 1997 Princeton University Press

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  116. @Glenn,

    In other news, you're comments about the 'refactoring' case lead me to surmise that you've had the experience of 'having the bubble':
    Interesting description, thanks. I've not heard it described with that term, but one of our team members who is a vet from the first Iraq war (the Kuwait thing) often comments on the parallels he finds in terms of the need for fluid, ongoing integration of diverse modes of awareness and knowledge to really be effective. Obviously there's no bullets flying or anything like the "fog of war" he experienced in the military, but good software teams, are, in my experience, "maximally philosophical" to riff on rank sophist's phrase regarding high degrees of complexity, conflict, ambiguity and dynamism. It's also not nearly so real-time as what you are describing, of course. I don't work in FDARS areas anymore, but my experience suggests that some of the software and technology systems that enables "having the bubble" as you describe comes from software team disciplines and attitudes that have the same features.

    -TS

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  117. Rank:

    Largely his ignorance of Aquinas. In his book Heidegger and Aquinas, he goes so far as to condemn him as an onto-theologian. Hart called him out on this in The Beauty of the Infinite, and showed how ignorant it truly is. I can't say that I've read much of Caputo's work--it's just that my impressions of him have all been negative.

    I have no idea where you got such an idea. Here’s Caputo: “The doctrine of esse subsistens in St. Thomas is no more a “theo”-logic in Heidegger’s sense than it is an “onto”-logic” (Heidegger and Aquinas, p. 157). And there are other quotes from that same work that reiterate this same point: “It cannot be maintained that in St. Thomas there is a patchwork “onto-theo-logy”” (Ibid., p. 135). So, maybe have another look at his work?

    I don't see how Derrida can escape from the self-refuting position outlined by Nagel above. Even if he begs the question and uses deconstruction to "prove" the consistency of deconstruction, he still fails.

    I told you how he could escape from it, by virtue of his idea of the impossible as necessary for something to be possible. In other words, all systems contain fragments, supplements, and so on, which are both outside and inside the systems, and thus occupy a position of impossibility, and yet those fragments and supplements are absolutely necessary for the systems to even get going.

    For example, forms are an absolutely necessary part of Aquinas’ system. And yet there is a problem, at least as far as I can tell. Forms are supposed to be universals, i.e. the form of dogness, for example, and yet they are also particulars, i.e. the substantial form of a particular angel. After all, an angel has no matter to serve as a principle of individuation, and thus only the form can do so. Unless you want to say that an angel is a universal, the substantial form of an angel is a particular. Furthermore, even in humans, when the soul separates from the material body, it exists as a subsisting immaterial form, and yet it is not a universal, but a particular, i.e. the form of that particular human being. So, forms are both universals and particulars, which is impossible. However, despite this impossibility, without form, all of Aquinas’ system falls apart.

    Let me put it this way. Derrida says that every representation, every action is one of violence. The "worst violence" is the violence of the totality: the Apollonian violence. The "least violence" is an opening up of every crack to let difference out: the Dionysian violence. In response to Levinas in the '60s, who suggested (I believe) that we should resort to quietism--any representation at all is strangulation of the Other--, Derrida wrote that this was, in fact, the worst violence. By staying silent, we bring the Apollonian totality upon ourselves. The same applies if we tear apart everything in deconstruction: we would be reduced to babble, and so to the Apollonian totality where difference is erased.

    Nice.

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  118. Rank:

    Remember, this is an "economy of violence", and so we should pragmatically keep the bare minimum of representations steady in order to tear apart the rest. This was Derrida's entire game plan. Everything goes, but, if we reduce ourselves to gibberish, then we've wrecked the entire project. The only option is to write under erasure, effacing the sign even as we put it to the page. We write and then cross it out: we don't really mean what we say, but we say it anyway. It destabilizes even our own pronouncements. Derrida, writing under erasure, doesn't even pretend that his own writing is stable. Nothing can ever be stable.

    Exactly. If nothing can ever be stable, then we are reduced to gibberish, which is exactly what Derrida denies is happening. So, it follows that there must be stability in order for there to be the possibility of any kind of meaning, including the kind that Derrida is trying to communicate in his works. The question is what kind of stability this is. My contention is that Derrida denies that this is a fully present and permanent stability, which is what his entire project is geared towards opposing. The opposite of Apollonian totality is not necessarily Dionysian madness, much like the opposite of actual being is not necessarily non-being, but rather could also include potential being. In other words, Derrida operates in between Apollonian totality and Dionysian madness, appropriating elements of both as essential to the possibility of textuality at all. From Apollonian totality he takes the notion of presence and stability, and from Dionysian madness he takes the notion of an opening towards the impermanence and incompleteness of that presence and stability.

    I have never heard this interpretation of Derrida. From my own reading, it seems incredibly off the mark. Perhaps it's Caputo's own spin on the enterprise? Derrida was a strong proponent of Levinas's system, and he became more of one in his late work. The Wholly Other is always arriving because the "meaning" contained in the trace is always just out of reach: but it cannot ever appear. The Wholly Other cannot ever disrupt a system. There is nothing "new". (Caputo doesn't sound very Nietzschean, in that regard.) Whatever is "new" is always already old, always already historical. So, yeah. No idea where this interpretation is coming from, but it seems unfaithful to both the early Derrida and the late, hyper-Levinasian Derrida.

    The horizon is both forever out of reach, and yet we can move to the point that was the horizon earlier. So, the horizon is both beyond reach, and yet reachable, under different aspects. Same idea with the Other, as far as I can tell. However, once we have reached what was the horizon, it is no longer the horizon, but rather “right here”.

    This, right here, shows that you still have a lot to learn about Derrida. What do you think he's talking about when he says that deconstruction is "affirmation"? There is only one option: Nietzschean creative destruction, just like nearly every other post-modernist, from Deleuze to Foucault. What do you think he's talking about when he mentions "violence"? Again, only one option: the will to power.

    Nope.

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  119. Rank:

    Regarding affirmation: “Accordingly, the “yes, yes” of this affirmative yes-laughter means two things … (1) The second “yes” is the “yes” of response, that is, made in response to the other whose coming, yes, we have already acknowledged; the second “yes” is an answer to the first, breathed under the inspiration of the first, of the other. (2) The second “yes” is also – in the same breath – the “yes” of repetitition, that is, made in confirmation of the first affirmation and just as primal and pristine as the so-called first. The “yes” if it really is “yes” cannot run on automatic but must really be restarted again and again, each “yes” being originarily “yes”, still another origin. The “yes” of repetition must already inhabit the first and be laid claim to by the first, lest the first be not first but a hollow cymbal, which only time will tell” (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, pp. 196-7).

    Regarding violence, I think that what Derrida has in mind is the appropriation of the Other into the Same. In other words, assimilating something within the system or the totality, stripping it of its particularity, of its alterity, and forcing it to speak the language of the system. It is a way of not allowing the Other to be on its own terms, but rather striving to make it fit our conceptual framework. The will to power is related to this idea, because the will to power is about domination, an overwhelming force that submerges all else under its power. Not all assimilations of the Other into the Same are like this, and thus Derridean violence is a broader category than the will to power. Incidentally, that is also why the metaphysics of presence is a kind of violence, i.e. dragging everything into the light of presence, even if its nature is to be absent.

    Haven't you heard about the Apollonian-Dionysian dialectic? Derrida is unabashedly the latter--just like every single post-modernist.

    He isn’t. He situates himself in the space between the two, experiencing the tension of the dialectic without any resolving synthesis, because this tension is an essential part of textuality.

    Further, Aquinas's own system explains this event. He experienced a direct vision of God through intellectus, after which the ratio of his system, which had led him to this point, seemed like straw. He affirms in his own writings that the knowledge of intellectus is higher than the knowledge of ratio, and that the knowledge of the mystic is therefore higher than the knowledge of the theologian.

    Fair enough. I think I need to read more about this.

    He isn't. God is infinite, and his knowledge of himself is infinite. There cannot be anything coherently called a "totality of presence" here. In fact, because of Trinitarian theology, God is always already Other from the start, in Hart's words. Either way, though, an infinite comprehension cannot force infinity into totalized presence, because there is no end either to the comprehension or to the infinity itself. Hart explains this in his book.

    So, God is not fully present to himself? He exceeds his knowledge of himself by virtue of his infinitude? But his knowledge is his essence, and so this is impossible. Thus, he must be fully present to himself. Whether this is the same as a totality of presence, I just meant that God in his entirety is present to his knowledge. His infinity would have to enclose his infinity into a totality. Otherwise, what does “fully present” mean?

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  120. I have no idea where you got such an idea. Here’s Caputo: “The doctrine of esse subsistens in St. Thomas is no more a “theo”-logic in Heidegger’s sense than it is an “onto”-logic” (Heidegger and Aquinas, p. 157). And there are other quotes from that same work that reiterate this same point: “It cannot be maintained that in St. Thomas there is a patchwork “onto-theo-logy”” (Ibid., p. 135). So, maybe have another look at his work?

    "Hence, all those protestations that Thomas is the philosopher of Being par excellence because he thinks Being as act, far from eluding Heidegger’scritique, in fact substantiate it. For Thomas, to be is to be in act, and to be inact is to be capable of action and of rendering other beings actual. To theextent that a being is in act, it is causally efficacious… St. Thomas does not practice a quiet, meditative savoring of the presencing of Being; he has instead reduced presencing to realitas, causalitas, actualitas."

    "In its own historical acuity, St. Thomas’ thought, as metaphysical theology, is guilty of the charges which Heidegger makes against metaphysics."

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/23575708/AQUINAS-ON-THE-QUESTION-OF-%E2%80%9CBEING%E2%80%9D

    http://karljaspers.org/csph/2000/yi.htm

    Perhaps my reading was a bit exaggerated, but it seems very clear to me that Caputo concludes that Aquinas never escapes metaphysics. Onto-theology is metaphysics. Eckhart, on the other hand, escapes metaphysics and therefore onto-theology. Aquinas, as a mystic, almost-kind-of-maybe escapes onto-theology along Eckhart's lines, but his doctrine of esse does not. Hart tears Caputo to shreds on this in The Beauty of the Infinite.

    I told you how he could escape from it, by virtue of his idea of the impossible as necessary for something to be possible. In other words, all systems contain fragments, supplements, and so on, which are both outside and inside the systems, and thus occupy a position of impossibility, and yet those fragments and supplements are absolutely necessary for the systems to even get going.

    This simply begs the question, though. How does he show that there are in-betweens? The emergence of differance and the trace from semiological trains. How does he establish the existence of differance and the trace? The existence of semiological trains. Can't you see the fallacy here? It's blindingly obvious.

    1. Derrida endorses representationalist semiotics.
    2. Differance emerges from this system.
    3. Differance causes deconstruction.
    4. Derrida uses deconstruction to illustrate the paradoxes of every system.
    5. Derrida escapes criticism of his own system by illustrating its paradoxical nature.

    See the fallacy now? (1) remains stable throughout. He cannot ever question (1). If he questioned (1), then nothing else would follow. He cannot ever deconstruct (1), because to deconstruct (1) is to engage in circular logic. He must always presuppose (1). There is no such thing as "inside and outside of a system", a "supplement", a "fragment"--none of these things--unless we accept (1). Now, this is important: either (1) is subjective or objective. There can be no in-betweens for one, on pains of begging the question. Derrida is now trapped in Nagel's paradox.

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  121. For example, forms are an absolutely necessary part of Aquinas’ system. And yet there is a problem, at least as far as I can tell. Forms are supposed to be universals, i.e. the form of dogness, for example, and yet they are also particulars, i.e. the substantial form of a particular angel. After all, an angel has no matter to serve as a principle of individuation, and thus only the form can do so. Unless you want to say that an angel is a universal, the substantial form of an angel is a particular. Furthermore, even in humans, when the soul separates from the material body, it exists as a subsisting immaterial form, and yet it is not a universal, but a particular, i.e. the form of that particular human being. So, forms are both universals and particulars, which is impossible. However, despite this impossibility, without form, all of Aquinas’ system falls apart.

    These aren't paradoxes. They're misreadings. Aquinas addresses all of these issues in great detail in the Summa contra Gentiles, among other books. (For the record, angels all have unique forms. They're universals in themselves. The issue of humans souls is more complex.)

    Exactly. If nothing can ever be stable, then we are reduced to gibberish, which is exactly what Derrida denies is happening. So, it follows that there must be stability in order for there to be the possibility of any kind of meaning, including the kind that Derrida is trying to communicate in his works. The question is what kind of stability this is. My contention is that Derrida denies that this is a fully present and permanent stability, which is what his entire project is geared towards opposing. The opposite of Apollonian totality is not necessarily Dionysian madness, much like the opposite of actual being is not necessarily non-being, but rather could also include potential being. In other words, Derrida operates in between Apollonian totality and Dionysian madness, appropriating elements of both as essential to the possibility of textuality at all. From Apollonian totality he takes the notion of presence and stability, and from Dionysian madness he takes the notion of an opening towards the impermanence and incompleteness of that presence and stability.

    Here's a quote from Derrida, courtesy of Hart.

    The divergence, the difference between Dionysus and Apollo, between ardor and structure, cannot be erased in history, for it is not in history. It too, in an unexpected sense, is an original structure: the opening of history, historicity itself. Difference does not simply belong either to history or structure. If we must say, along with Schelling, that "all is but Dionysus," we must know — and this is to write — that, like pure force, Dionysus is worked by difference. He sees and lets himself be seen. And tears out (his) eyes. For all eternity, he has had a relationship to his exterior, to visible form, to structure, as he does to his death. This is how he appears (to himself).

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  122. I believe that the proper interpretation of this wall of gibberish--I'm stealing this from another book--is that Apollo and Dionysus are both contained within Dionysus himself. Dionysus is the dialectic between chaos and order, which is history itself. Order, then, is not something on its own: it is merely a momentary dry patch in the flood. It appears, is swept away, and is moved somewhere else, perhaps. History is a Dionysian flux that "always buries its undertakers", in Gilson's words--even though these undertakers have enough time to build their houses.

    But this does not save him from incoherence. To say that he keeps a bit of Apollo around to prevent Dionysus from Apolloing-up the place does not keep him from begging the question, because the existence of Apollo and Dionysus are the thing at issue. And their existence, I might add, rests on his presupposition of representationalist semiotics. Unless he takes this as his starting point, it is impossible for him to discuss differance and arche-writing, which is exactly where he locates the divergence between Dionysus and Apollo. Transitions between Dionysus and Apollo cannot be history itself unless history itself is arche-writing, which is what Derrida claims. So, again, he has failed along Nagel's lines.

    The “yes” of repetition must already inhabit the first and be laid claim to by the first, lest the first be not first but a hollow cymbal, which only time will tell

    Do you really think this is against what I said? Nietzsche himself declares that pure affirmation is "innocence and forgetting, a new beginning, a game, a self-propelled wheel, a first movement". Caputo is simply repeating Nietzsche's own statements about affirmation and the will to power in slightly different language.

    Now, does this sound like deconstruction to you? Tear it down in the name of Dionysus, build it in the name of Apollo, tear it down again, build it again. This is pure Nietzschean "play", a "game", "innocence and forgetting". We make rules and then forget them a second later. Even the rule that there are no rules becomes a rule, and so it too must be forgotten. Hence, even Dionysus-within-Dionysus becomes a totality: our only option is to participate in "Dionysus major", which is to say that we must create rules while always already forgetting their purpose and deconstructing them. We write under erasure, stating but never meaning; we deconstruct other systems and put new ones in their place, only to do it again.

    Deconstruction is, quite simply, identical to Nietzsche's affirmation.


    Regarding violence, I think that what Derrida has in mind is the appropriation of the Other into the Same. In other words, assimilating something within the system or the totality, stripping it of its particularity, of its alterity, and forcing it to speak the language of the system. It is a way of not allowing the Other to be on its own terms, but rather striving to make it fit our conceptual framework. The will to power is related to this idea, because the will to power is about domination, an overwhelming force that submerges all else under its power. Not all assimilations of the Other into the Same are like this, and thus Derridean violence is a broader category than the will to power. Incidentally, that is also why the metaphysics of presence is a kind of violence, i.e. dragging everything into the light of presence, even if its nature is to be absent.

    I would say that the will to power is Derrida's presupposition in claiming that the reduction of the Other to the Same is violent. Like the other Nietzschean post-modernists (i.e. everyone besides Heidegger), he was obsessed with the will to power. Nietzsche saw everything as the will to power: Derrida sees everything as violence. It's the same thing, essentially--only one (Nietzsche's idea) determines the other.

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  123. So, God is not fully present to himself? He exceeds his knowledge of himself by virtue of his infinitude? But his knowledge is his essence, and so this is impossible. Thus, he must be fully present to himself. Whether this is the same as a totality of presence, I just meant that God in his entirety is present to his knowledge. His infinity would have to enclose his infinity into a totality. Otherwise, what does “fully present” mean?

    How can the infinite be enclosed? There would have to be something higher than the infinite, but, because the infinite is Being itself, it is impossible for that state of affairs to obtain. God is "present to himself" in that the Trinitarian hypostases know and desire each other. But, remember: "other" is an operative word, here. As Hart details extensively in his book, the Trinity prevents God from ever being enclosed in a totality. The hypostases are always knowing and desiring each other in infinite terms--in terms of the "ever-greater". The infinite love and connection of the Trinity is critical to a proper appreciation of Christian ontology. (Note that this does not commit one to polytheism.)

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  124. Rank:

    "Hence, all those protestations that Thomas is the philosopher of Being par excellence because he thinks Being as act, far from eluding Heidegger’scritique, in fact substantiate it. For Thomas, to be is to be in act, and to be inact is to be capable of action and of rendering other beings actual. To theextent that a being is in act, it is causally efficacious… St. Thomas does not practice a quiet, meditative savoring of the presencing of Being; he has instead reduced presencing to realitas, causalitas, actualitas."

    First, this quote is from page 6 of H&A, and it is important to be clear about what Caputo means by “Heidegger’s critique”. He is referring to Heidegger’s claim that every system of metaphysics describes Being according to the properties of some particular beings: “In every case Being itself is characterized in terms of a region of being” (p. 2). This is what Caputo is referring to in your quote, and it is true that Aquinas does not just bask in the presence of Being, but conceptualizes Being according to beings that act, and takes that as the fundamental nature of Being. Esse does not just sit there, after all, but acts to create ex nihilo, for example.

    Second, here is Caputo again on Aquinas’ onto-theology:

    “For if one listens only to what St. Thomas says, and if in particular one focuses on how he says it, one will come away convinced that here indeed is onto-theo-logic, indeed perhaps even a paradigm of it. There is no denying that St. Thomas’ experience of Being is heavily encased in a species of onto-theo-logic. But the task of thought is to probe this onto-theo-logical structure to find the point at which the dismantling which exposes its more essential meaning can begin. And the surprising result which emerges from such an undertaking in deconstruction is that, in St. Thomas, metaphysics is meant to wither away. The whole elaborate texture of disputatio which he weaves is an exercise in showing the deficiency and infirmity of ratio, in showing that metaphysics is something to be overcome” (H&A, p. 252).

    And in a note that elaborates upon the above:

    “I do not think that Thomistic metaphysics is onto-theo-logic in the strong sense. It is not an onto-logic insofar as its focus is on esse, not ens; not a theo-logic, insofar as God is not a highest being so much as pure Being; not an outright –logic, inasmuch as it admits of the deconstruction of which I am speaking here.” (H&A, p. 285n5).

    Perhaps my reading was a bit exaggerated, but it seems very clear to me that Caputo concludes that Aquinas never escapes metaphysics. Onto-theology is metaphysics.

    This is not true. Caputo: “there is more to St. Thomas than metaphysics, and that this metaphysics tends by a dynamism of its own in the direction of a non-metaphysical experience of Being. And it is in this sense that there is an overcoming of metaphysics in St. Thomas as well” (H&A, p. 248) and “so there is in St. Thomas a tendency, a desiderium naturale, to divert oneself of the concepts, judgments, and ratiocinations of metaphysics in order to end into the simplicity of intellectus” (H&A, p. 271).

    I really think that you should Caputo for yourself. He’s very good.

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  125. Rank:

    Eckhart, on the other hand, escapes metaphysics and therefore onto-theology. Aquinas, as a mystic, almost-kind-of-maybe escapes onto-theology along Eckhart's lines, but his doctrine of esse does not. Hart tears Caputo to shreds on this in The Beauty of the Infinite.

    But that is because “Eckhart’s work consists in no small part in driving the Thomistic theses (which he was committed to defend by reason of the professorial post which he held) to their mystical extreme, radicalizing them, pressing them so tightly as to make them yield their mystical sense” (H&A, p. 274) and “It is therefore in Meister Eckhart that the overcoming of metaphysics which is implicit in Thomistic metaphysics is made explicit, that a possibility which is in St. Thomas (if not altogether a possibility for St. Thomas) gets worked out” and “that Eckhart considered himself not to be controverting Aquinas but to be radicalizing and extending him” (Ibid., p. 278). “It is no wonder that Eckhart answered his accusers in the Inquisition by saying that he said no more than is taught in the Summa of Brother Thomas” (Ibid., p. 279).

    This simply begs the question, though. How does he show that there are in-betweens? The emergence of differance and the trace from semiological trains.

    It does not beg the question. He specifically looks at a number of fragments of philosophical systems, and examines them from within the systems in question in order to demonstrate that they are both necessary for the systems to be possible, and yet impossible according to the system’s principles. What to do in such a situation? Well, you could simply reject the entire system as inconsistent, which would be equivalent to destroying it, or you could continue to use the system, but understand that it is incomplete, contains fractures and fissures that make it unstable and impermanent, and that keeps you awake and alert to something new upon the horizon that may be better suited to your needs than the system in question. The former is what you claim Derrida endorses, whereas the latter is what Derrida actually endorses.

    1. Derrida endorses representationalist semiotics.
2. Differance emerges from this system.
3. Differance causes deconstruction. 
4. Derrida uses deconstruction to illustrate the paradoxes of every system.
5. Derrida escapes criticism of his own system by illustrating its paradoxical nature.



    See the fallacy now? (1) remains stable throughout. He cannot ever question (1). If he questioned (1), then nothing else would follow. He cannot ever deconstruct (1), because to deconstruct (1) is to engage in circular logic. He must always presuppose (1). There is no such thing as "inside and outside of a system", a "supplement", a "fragment"--none of these things--unless we accept (1). Now, this is important: either (1) is subjective or objective. There can be no in-betweens for one, on pains of begging the question. Derrida is now trapped in Nagel's paradox.


    What do you mean by “representationalist semiotics”? Do you mean that a signifier stands for something else, i.e. another signifier or a signified? If this is what you mean, then he would probably respond that this is objectively true, but would insert a subjective element by saying that what is represented is never fully present to the signifier, and that would include this own terms, which may be superceded in the future by a better language for what is happening in textuality. Again, the issue is not stability, but permanent and fully present stability. You can reject the former, and still have enough stability to get you through the day, even though something else lies beyond the horizon, which would be better suited to your needs. Nothing lasts forever, nothing is permanent, nothing is fully present, including deconstruction itself. However, for now, it has enough stability to be operative.

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  126. Rank:

    The important point is that the discussion does not end. Aquinas’ work did not end all questions or need for interpretation. If it did, then we would all just need to read his works, and get all the answers, but we don’t. There are summaries, interpretations, reinterpretations, critiques and so on, of his work, which means that not even his system achieved finality and totality. There were loose ends that others pursued. There were key components that had different possibilities in need of exploration. His work did not result in a pure and pristine system frozen in place for all time, and only in need of regurgitation and repetition without deviation or difference.

    Furthermore, here is Caputo again: “Everything in deconstruction is driven by the undeconstructable, fired and inspired, inflamed and impassioned, set into motion by what is undeconstructable. Deconstruction is internally related to the undeconstructable, and is incoherent without it. What is undeconstructable – justice, the gift, hospitality, the tout autre, l’avenir – is neither real nor ideal, neither present nor future-present, neither existent nor idealizable, which is how and why it incites our “desire”, driving and impassioning deconstruction” (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, p. 128). So, neither Derrida nor Caputo claim that everything is deconstructable, which seems to avoid Nagel’s dilemma.

    These aren't paradoxes. They're misreadings. Aquinas addresses all of these issues in great detail in the Summa contra Gentiles, among other books. (For the record, angels all have unique forms. They're universals in themselves. The issue of humans souls is more complex.)

    I still think that Aquinas’ account of angels is just paradoxical. There are individual angels in Christianity. However, angels are supposed to be immaterial, and thus cannot possibly be individuals. God’s immateriality is supposed to be what prohibits his individuality. Even saying that each angel is just a species under the genus “angel” that is actualized by esse into an angel does not help, because what is final product of this actualization? It cannot be an individual angel due to the considerations above, and thus must be an actually existing universal, which is supposed to be impossible. After all, universals only exist in material beings and in immaterial intellects. But we are not talking about a universal in an immaterial intellect, but rather a universal that is an immaterial intellect. X cannot be in Y unless Y already exists to contain X to begin with. Furthermore, if universals can exist independent of material beings and immaterial intellects, then Platonism turns out to be true after all.

    And it’s even worse for human beings. The soul is the animating form of the body, and thus must be a universal. Each human has the same form of humanity, but only differs in which chunk of matter this form is actualized in, and that counts as the difference between this human over here and that human over there. However, when the body dies, and the form becomes a subsisting immaterial form, then the question is whether it is a universal or a particular, because it cannot be both.

    If it is a universal, then it cannot be this particular human being, but rather consists of humanity in general. However, this is a problem, because then the form is not of a particular human being, and thus cannot count as an ongoing identity of a specific human that recently died.

    If it is a particular, then what accounts for its particularity and individuality? It cannot be matter, because it is immaterial. It cannot be the form, because the form is the universal “humanity” that was actualized in a particular chunk of matter while the person was alive. That is why matter is the principle of individuation, i.e. all humans have the same form, but differ in how that form is actualized in a specific chunk of matter.

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  127. Rank:

    The only solution that I can see is that the form changes from “humanity” when Jack was alive to “Jackness” after Jack had died. It thus changes into a form that would be analogous to an angelic form, i.e. a species that has a single member. So, when esse is added to the essence “Jackness”, then you have the subsisting immaterial soul of Jack.

    But there are problems with this account.

    First, if this is acceptable, then why not just start with the species “Jackness” to begin with in order to explain the individual person named Jack? After all, this account is permissible for an angel and (possibly) for a disembodied human soul, i.e. for immaterial substances. That would mean that the individuation that picks out Jack would not belong to matter necessarily, but could belong to the form of “Jackness”. Thus, one can be Jack at one part of space-time or at another, and thus it is not essentially to personal identity where in space-time a person happens to exist. Furthermore, there does not seem to be any principled reason to prefer an individual human being existing because (1) the form of humanity being actualized in a particular chunk of matter, or (2) form of individual-human-being-ness being actualized in a particular chunk of matter. How would one decide between these two possibilities on Aquinas’ system?

    Second, it makes resurrection impossible. Once an immaterial substance has esse, it cannot change, because change involves potentiality, and there is no potentiality in an immaterial substance, because matter is the principle of potency. In other words, once an immaterial substance exists, it exists forever. In order for there to be a resurrection, the form of “Jackness” would have to revert to the form of “humanity”, which is then actualized in a particular chunk of matter to become Jack. However, the form of “Jackness”, being an immaterial substance, cannot change, because it has no potentiality, and thus must remain the form of “Jackness”. And since the form of “Jackness” plus matter is not the same as the form of “humanity” plus matter, then Jack has not been resurrected at all.

    I believe that the proper interpretation of this wall of gibberish--I'm stealing this from another book--is that Apollo and Dionysus are both contained within Dionysus himself. Dionysus is the dialectic between chaos and order, which is history itself. Order, then, is not something on its own: it is merely a momentary dry patch in the flood. It appears, is swept away, and is moved somewhere else, perhaps. History is a Dionysian flux that "always buries its undertakers", in Gilson's words--even though these undertakers have enough time to build their houses.

    Or maybe the point is that neither Apollo nor Dionysus are pure, and each infiltrates the other by virtue of difference. Apollo is invaded by Dionysus and Dionysus is invaded by Apollo. Order and totality are invaded by chaos and disruption, and chaos and disruption are invaded by order and totality.

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  128. Rank:

    Do you really think this is against what I said? Nietzsche himself declares that pure affirmation is "innocence and forgetting, a new beginning, a game, a self-propelled wheel, a first movement". Caputo is simply repeating Nietzsche's own statements about affirmation and the will to power in slightly different language.

    They are related, certainly, but not all relatives are exactly alike, even twins. The affirmation in deconstruction is not an overflowing and overabundance of power and force, casting aside all weakness in its wake, which is what affirmation in Nietzsche is all about. The affirmation of deconstruction is the affirmation of the underdog, the weak and the lost, the outcasts and the outsiders, which is why justice relates to the Other, because the Other is beyond the totality of the Same, which is associated with power and domination, leveling all heterogeneity and differences into a homogeneity and sameness. (In a way, it is like the mistake of scientism, which attempts to level all reality into the models of the physical sciences, and anything that does not fit must be eliminated as false and illusory.)

    How can the infinite be enclosed? There would have to be something higher than the infinite, but, because the infinite is Being itself, it is impossible for that state of affairs to obtain. God is "present to himself" in that the Trinitarian hypostases know and desire each other. But, remember: "other" is an operative word, here. As Hart details extensively in his book, the Trinity prevents God from ever being enclosed in a totality. The hypostases are always knowing and desiring each other in infinite terms--in terms of the "ever-greater". The infinite love and connection of the Trinity is critical to a proper appreciation of Christian ontology. (Note that this does not commit one to polytheism.)

    But how can the Trinitarian hypostases “know” each other unless they are fully present to each other? Otherwise, there are extra bits of each other that they would be un-aware of. Either God encloses himself within his knowledge of himself, or there are parts of himself that are outside of his knowledge of himself. The latter is clearly impossible, because God is simple and has no parts, and his essence is his knowledge of himself. The former seems the best bet to support, but it also implies that infinity can exist in a totality within the knowledge of God.

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  129. I really think that you should Caputo for yourself. He’s very good.

    From these quotes, I think it's clear that what I said is the case. He states that Aquinas-as-mystic is sort-of-maybe capable of escaping his metaphysics. For example:

    For if one listens only to what St. Thomas says, and if in particular one focuses on how he says it, one will come away convinced that here indeed is onto-theo-logic, indeed perhaps even a paradigm of it. There is no denying that St. Thomas’ experience of Being is heavily encased in a species of onto-theo-logic. But the task of thought is to probe this onto-theo-logical structure to find the point at which the dismantling which exposes its more essential meaning can begin. And the surprising result which emerges from such an undertaking in deconstruction is that, in St. Thomas, metaphysics is meant to wither away. The whole elaborate texture of disputatio which he weaves is an exercise in showing the deficiency and infirmity of ratio, in showing that metaphysics is something to be overcome.

    This is, quite simply, a terrible reading of Aquinas. It's a biased reading of Aquinas--a desperate reading of Aquinas. And it arises from a total misunderstanding about exactly what Aquinas is describing. Hart explores this in his attack on Caputo (and on Heidegger himself). He shows how Aquinas is building on Christian tradition that is so far removed from "onto-theology" as to be totally unrecognizable as it. We are not forced to move to Eckhart to solve the "deficiencies" of Aquinas, and we do not need to "deconstruct" Aquinas to save him from onto-theology. He never was onto-theological: only his countless poor readers, from the 13th century to today, have thought so. Caputo can be included in this group.

    But that is because “Eckhart’s work consists in no small part in driving the Thomistic theses (which he was committed to defend by reason of the professorial post which he held) to their mystical extreme, radicalizing them, pressing them so tightly as to make them yield their mystical sense” (H&A, p. 274) and “It is therefore in Meister Eckhart that the overcoming of metaphysics which is implicit in Thomistic metaphysics is made explicit, that a possibility which is in St. Thomas (if not altogether a possibility for St. Thomas) gets worked out” and “that Eckhart considered himself not to be controverting Aquinas but to be radicalizing and extending him” (Ibid., p. 278). “It is no wonder that Eckhart answered his accusers in the Inquisition by saying that he said no more than is taught in the Summa of Brother Thomas” (Ibid., p. 279).

    Eckhart is popular with the post-modernists--I know. But there is nothing in Eckhart that we need in order to "complete" Aquinas. There is nothing in Aquinas that needs to be completed in this regard. Certainly, people like Eckhart have contributed to the history of Christian theology; but they have not "improved" or "completed" Thomism in the process.

    I really, really want to avoid typing up the relevant passages (largely 222-224) from Hart's book. Perhaps you can find them on Google Books?

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  130. It does not beg the question. He specifically looks at a number of fragments of philosophical systems, and examines them from within the systems in question in order to demonstrate that they are both necessary for the systems to be possible, and yet impossible according to the system’s principles. What to do in such a situation? Well, you could simply reject the entire system as inconsistent, which would be equivalent to destroying it, or you could continue to use the system, but understand that it is incomplete, contains fractures and fissures that make it unstable and impermanent, and that keeps you awake and alert to something new upon the horizon that may be better suited to your needs than the system in question. The former is what you claim Derrida endorses, whereas the latter is what Derrida actually endorses.

    I don't see where you've gotten the idea that Derrida is some kind of passive critic. He's just like Heidegger: he reads and criticizes for the sake of advancing his own philosophy. Everything that he writes is a development of his project. Any critique he provides will necessarily rest on the foundations that he set up in Of Grammatology: the supplement, the trace, differance, arche-writing and so forth. It is from this vantage point that he brings up the other systems in question. It is from this vantage point that he considers them "necessary impossibilities" rather than logical flaws, as a normal critic would. Unless you already endorse deconstruction, there is no such thing as a necessary impossibility. That is why I say he's begging the question.

    What do you mean by “representationalist semiotics”?

    First, Derrida is a representationalist--what Willard calls a "Midas touch" representationalist. Anything that he knows is reduced from the Other to the Same, because to know is to represent. Heidegger attempted post-representationalist thinking with his being-in-the-world stuff and so forth. Derrida claims that Heidegger never got out of representationalism: he was still stuck reducing the Other to the Same.

    Now, whether or not you agree with Derrida's attack, the point remains that Derrida was a representationalist. He was also a very prominent semiotician. Against the structuralists, though, he said that semiotic systems necessarily connect one signifier to another. There can never be a referent that lies outside of representation: there is no objective, solid, concrete stopping point for the signifier. Because all is representation, there cannot ever be something "prior to representation", an "original ground". This is what he means when he says that there has never been anything but writing, and nothing but traces and traces of traces. When all is representation, there can only be signs of signs infected by traces of traces.

    Hence, "representationalist semiotics". It is Kantian representationalism fused with a warped Saussurean semiotics, in which representations are infinitely connected to the entire body of representation.

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  131. Do you mean that a signifier stands for something else, i.e. another signifier or a signified? If this is what you mean, then he would probably respond that this is objectively true, but would insert a subjective element by saying that what is represented is never fully present to the signifier, and that would include this own terms, which may be superceded in the future by a better language for what is happening in textuality.

    This would be utterly irrelevant and would beg the question again. I don't believe that representationalism is true. I don't believe that semiotics is true. Now, how can Derrida show that I'm wrong? By deconstructing me? That just begs the question. Unless one endorses both representationalism and semiotics, it is impossible to reach Derrida's conclusions. Further, representationalism and semiotics must themselves remain stable and undeconstructed for Derrida's project to take off. Deconstructing semiotics would be to use the historicality of the signifier to show the historicality of the signifier, which is circular nonsense. Deconstructing representationalism would be to show that his own view about representation--the root of his deconstruction--is historical, and thus relative. This would be tantamount to self-refutation.

    He cannot escape.

    The important point is that the discussion does not end. Aquinas’ work did not end all questions or need for interpretation.

    Takes care of most of them. And, in any case, this merely begs the question again regarding Derrida's own underlying mechanics. The discussion must end on his representationalist-semiological terms for the discussion to continue in the way that he envisions. That's all there is to it.

    What is undeconstructable – justice, the gift, hospitality, the tout autre, l’avenir – is neither real nor ideal, neither present nor future-present, neither existent nor idealizable, which is how and why it incites our “desire”, driving and impassioning deconstruction” (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, p. 128). So, neither Derrida nor Caputo claim that everything is deconstructable, which seems to avoid Nagel’s dilemma.

    It does not avoid the dilemma. The very roots of deconstruction are what's at issue, and we cannot argue for them without going "outside of the text". The undeconstructable points that Caputo raises--the gift would not be one of them, I think, because Derrida himself claims that the gift is incapable of existing--are largely familiar to me. We would also have to include difference, differance, the trace and so forth, because Derrida declares these things "history itself". But it's all irrelevant unless we accept Derrida's initial claims, which we cannot do without stepping beyond the text and endorsing objective principles that he claims cannot exist.

    I still think that Aquinas’ account of angels is just paradoxical. There are individual angels in Christianity. However, angels are supposed to be immaterial, and thus cannot possibly be individuals. God’s immateriality is supposed to be what prohibits his individuality. Even saying that each angel is just a species under the genus “angel” that is actualized by esse into an angel does not help, because what is final product of this actualization? It cannot be an individual angel due to the considerations above, and thus must be an actually existing universal, which is supposed to be impossible.

    Angels are pure spirits--pure forms--, like disembodied humans. They are composed of essence and esse. The difference is that each one is wholly unique from the others--its own species. It's all very straightforward. Humans less so; but I have no interest in getting into a debate on that point right now. If you want to see a few of the details, I recommend this article from the contra Gentiles:

    http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_56.htm

    (Apologies for skipping over the long analysis you gave of the forms-souls issue.)

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  132. Or maybe the point is that neither Apollo nor Dionysus are pure, and each infiltrates the other by virtue of difference. Apollo is invaded by Dionysus and Dionysus is invaded by Apollo. Order and totality are invaded by chaos and disruption, and chaos and disruption are invaded by order and totality.

    Perhaps. Derrida's writing is so annoying. In either case, though, it must mean that history is this dialectic, and that there is no way out of it. "Difference" is the infinite clash between "ardor and structure".

    They are related, certainly, but not all relatives are exactly alike, even twins. The affirmation in deconstruction is not an overflowing and overabundance of power and force, casting aside all weakness in its wake, which is what affirmation in Nietzsche is all about. The affirmation of deconstruction is the affirmation of the underdog, the weak and the lost, the outcasts and the outsiders, which is why justice relates to the Other, because the Other is beyond the totality of the Same, which is associated with power and domination, leveling all heterogeneity and differences into a homogeneity and sameness.

    From my reading, affirmation is not about casting aside the weak, but about destroying oneself and "letting-be". Turns out there's are two Wikipedia articles on this very topic, which surprised me. They summarize the issue nicely:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzschean_affirmation

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amor_fati

    (In a way, it is like the mistake of scientism, which attempts to level all reality into the models of the physical sciences, and anything that does not fit must be eliminated as false and illusory.)

    Ha. That's pretty good.

    But how can the Trinitarian hypostases “know” each other unless they are fully present to each other? Otherwise, there are extra bits of each other that they would be un-aware of.

    That doesn't make any sense. Infinite complexity + infinite comprehension != totalized system. It would, as Hart explains, be a system in which there is always more desire and always more comprehension. They become ever greater while already being the ultimate: they are never totalized. Just as the soul's vision of God increases in never-ending complexity, so too are the relations of the hypostases always more and more; they are never "complete", even though God is the absolute fullness of being to which nothing may be added. It is because God is that fullness that he may never be exhausted.

    Either God encloses himself within his knowledge of himself, or there are parts of himself that are outside of his knowledge of himself.

    This would apply if we were dealing in a finite economy. When we speak of the infinite, all kinds of craziness becomes possible.

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  133. I would like to take a timeout to thank both Rank and Dguller for your excellent discussions in the comboxes of this blog. As much as I enjoy Dr. Feser's posts, I think I may enjoy your discussions even more. In particular, this discussion on Derrida has been very exciting and illuminating so far.

    I do have to admit that I read your posts with an admixture of appreciation and dismay. Appreciation because they are so engaging, informative, and respectful. Dismay because they force me to recognize how pitiful my reading and understanding is. You both seem to have a very wide swath of reading and comprehension under your belts, you're not even professional philosophers! I don't know how you find the time or energy to become so learned in your spare time, but I salute you gentlemen.

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  134. Rank:

    This is, quite simply, a terrible reading of Aquinas. It's a biased reading of Aquinas--a desperate reading of Aquinas. And it arises from a total misunderstanding about exactly what Aquinas is describing. Hart explores this in his attack on Caputo (and on Heidegger himself). He shows how Aquinas is building on Christian tradition that is so far removed from "onto-theology" as to be totally unrecognizable as it. We are not forced to move to Eckhart to solve the "deficiencies" of Aquinas, and we do not need to "deconstruct" Aquinas to save him from onto-theology. He never was onto-theological: only his countless poor readers, from the 13th century to today, have thought so. Caputo can be included in this group.

    Personally, I disagree with Caputo on this score. I actually think that Aquinas is an onto-theologian, even though his thought does contain tendencies towards an escape from onto-theology. After all, remember what onto-theology is supposed to be about. It is supposed to be the study of being itself, and not simply about particular regions of being, which is what makes it ontology. This certainly seems to be the case for Aquinas. It is also supposed to make the further determination that in order to understand being as being one must posit a supreme or ultimate ground for that being, which is what makes it theology. The combination of the study of being as being and the need for a supreme and ultimate ground of that being is onto-theology. This is also the case for Aquinas. So, I think that it’s fair to say that Aquinas does practice onto-theology.

    Now, this is distinct from the issue of whether Aquinas practices the metaphysics of presence. I happen to believe that Aquinas does this, as well. After all, he certainly prioritizes in terms of being more fundamental and more perfect: presence over absence, act over potency, Pure Act over impure act, unity over diversity, simplicity over complexity, eternity over temporality, esse over ens, and so on. And all of these have to do with the full and eternal presence of a simple unity as the highest form of existence, which primarily occurs in the divine, and secondarily occurs in the human intellect in the beautific vision of the divine. And remember that this is all the metaphysics of presence is supposed to be about.

    I really, really want to avoid typing up the relevant passages (largely 222-224) from Hart's book. Perhaps you can find them on Google Books?

    Only page 223 is available.

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  135. Rank:

    I don't see where you've gotten the idea that Derrida is some kind of passive critic. He's just like Heidegger: he reads and criticizes for the sake of advancing his own philosophy. Everything that he writes is a development of his project. Any critique he provides will necessarily rest on the foundations that he set up in Of Grammatology: the supplement, the trace, differance, arche-writing and so forth. It is from this vantage point that he brings up the other systems in question. It is from this vantage point that he considers them "necessary impossibilities" rather than logical flaws, as a normal critic would. Unless you already endorse deconstruction, there is no such thing as a necessary impossibility. That is why I say he's begging the question.

    First, I still think it is helpful to think along the lines of the doctrine of analogy. What is Being? We cannot say what Being is precisely, because it is too general and universal, and anything we say presupposes Being to make it possible. We can talk about particular kinds of beings, which participate in Being, and use them to refer analogous to this elusive concept of Being. They all share the same referent, i.e. Being, but differ in their respective senses. But it is still like having a vague sense of direction, and reaching through the fog rather than seeing in the clear light of day where you have to go. So, you can talk about Being without knowing what you are talking about, except indirectly via analogy.

    I see this as similar to Derrida’s project. He is trying to talk about something that he technically cannot talk about, except indirectly via absences and traces and differing and deferring “things”. These “things” are like origins, but different. They are like a ground, but different. They are like a foundation, but different. Analogy is at the heart of Derrida’s project, because univocality and equivocality are impossible for it to proceed, much in the same way that they make talk about divine names impossible. I mean, you cannot really talk about esse, because in order for us to talk about something, we must understand it, which means the abstraction of a form into the intellect. How does one abstract the form of God into the intellect? This is impossible, because God’s form is esse, and for the intellect to contain God’s form, it would have to contain God, which is impossible. In other words, there is no abstraction of God’s form or essence from his esse, because his essence is esse. It would be like abstracting the form of “triangle” without including “lines”. It just isn’t possible. So, when we are talking about God, what exactly are we holding in our minds?

    Second, “logical flaws” is one way of talking about necessary impossibilities, but it is sterile and unexciting. It does not rivet one’s attention towards a part of a theory that desperately needs to be addressed. It is like talking about rape as nonconsensual sexual intercourse. Sure, that is technically true, but does not arouse the passions necessary to take action to correct the injustice. So, some of this may just be a matter of a difference in style and priorities and goals. But more importantly, I think that you are not taking his idea that the uncovering of a necessary impossibility does not necessarily collapse the system into nothingness, but rather points towards its inherent instability, incompleteness, lack of full authority and power over us, and gives us some wiggle room to escape it, if something better is available. That is the point that he is trying to make, and in order to make it, he must dart between immanence and transcendence, the Same and the Other, and show that they are both parts of one another.

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  136. Rank:

    This would be utterly irrelevant and would beg the question again. I don't believe that representationalism is true. I don't believe that semiotics is true. Now, how can Derrida show that I'm wrong? By deconstructing me? That just begs the question. Unless one endorses both representationalism and semiotics, it is impossible to reach Derrida's conclusions.

    He could ask you what you mean when you say “I don’t believe that representationalism is true”. And you would respond with … words. And when he asks what you mean by those words, then you will respond with more … words. You can never respond with a transcendental signified independent of the network of concepts and words within which it would be embedded. The whole system is suffused with teleology and intentionality, but it is a teleology and intentionality that is not fully present to the intention of the individual, because there is a history of the terms that they are using that is absent, and there is a future in which those terms can be further modified that is outside of that individual’s access. Hence, the traces and absences and deferring differences of the signs and words.

    Further, representationalism and semiotics must themselves remain stable and undeconstructed for Derrida's project to take off.

    Elements of them must remain stable, true, but not permanent. Again, a bridge can serve perfectly, well even if it eventually falls apart. With regards to systems, there is always incompleteness, which is why the undeconstructables always have to do with the Other, what is beyond the horizon, outside the economy of the Same, which ultimately comes down to being outside of a present system that attempts to be a totality that encloses everything within it, giving everything a permanent and proper place.

    Deconstructing semiotics would be to use the historicality of the signifier to show the historicality of the signifier, which is circular nonsense.

    No, you use the historicality of the signifier to show that there are absences in the presence of the signifier in the intention of the speaker, for example, and which shows that a metaphysics of presence is impossible. And if it is impossible to have a fully present meaning and significance of a signifier, then there is always an opening for something new beyond the horizon, outside of our awareness and our expectations that we should try to be prepared for. That is not “circular nonsense”.

    Deconstructing representationalism would be to show that his own view about representation--the root of his deconstruction--is historical, and thus relative. This would be tantamount to self-refutation.

    Like I said, he endorses undeconstructables within his theory, and they are those aspects that resist the systematizing attempt of a totality to absorb and assimilate all aspects of reality into a single and fully present intellectual vision. They are structural features of all theories that can be deconstructed, and they involve those loose fragments and supplements that choke the system and grind it to a halt in its totalizing processes, as well as resist its attempt to level all differences into homogeneity.

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  137. Rank:

    It does not avoid the dilemma. The very roots of deconstruction are what's at issue, and we cannot argue for them without going "outside of the text". The undeconstructable points that Caputo raises--the gift would not be one of them, I think, because Derrida himself claims that the gift is incapable of existing--are largely familiar to me. We would also have to include difference, differance, the trace and so forth, because Derrida declares these things "history itself". But it's all irrelevant unless we accept Derrida's initial claims, which we cannot do without stepping beyond the text and endorsing objective principles that he claims cannot exist.

    There has to be a distinction between what is permanent and what is temporary, as well as what is characterized by presence and what is characterized by absence. When Derrida denies “objective principles”, he is denying permanent and fully present principles. The undeconstructables are perhaps permanent, but they are certainly not fully present. In fact, they are characterized by absences that resist a totalizing attempt to force everything into a single and full presence. So, he does not need to step outside the text, but rather only to notice the absences within the text, identify and name them, and then observe their role in how the text actually functions. Maybe this helps?

    Angels are pure spirits--pure forms--, like disembodied humans. They are composed of essence and esse. The difference is that each one is wholly unique from the others--its own species. It's all very straightforward. Humans less so; but I have no interest in getting into a debate on that point right now. If you want to see a few of the details, I recommend this article from the contra Gentiles:

http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_56.htm

    I don’t think that article from SCG addressed my concerns. I understand that a particular angel is just the universal species actualized by esse. The issue is the impossibility of that angel to be an individual, because individuation is due to the potency of matter, which simply does not exist in an immaterial substance. So, you cannot have an individual angel at all, and if you cannot have an individual, then you must have a universal instead, which means that you have an actual universal in existence, which is neither in a material substance nor in an immaterial intellect. And that means that you have a Platonic Form, which Aquinas rejects as impossible. So, an angel is neither a universal nor a particular, and thus is impossible within the Thomist system. And yet, angels are necessary parts of the Thomist system, because they bridge the ontological gap between God and humans, because humans are supposed to be situated within the great chain of Being between angels and animals. Without angels, there is a gap in the chain, which is also impossible.

    (Apologies for skipping over the long analysis you gave of the forms-souls issue.)

    That’s too bad. I was interested in your comments on it.

    Perhaps. Derrida's writing is so annoying. In either case, though, it must mean that history is this dialectic, and that there is no way out of it. "Difference" is the infinite clash between "ardor and structure".

    First, I agree that Derrida’s writing is annoying. I find Caputo’s much more enjoyable and informative.

    Second, you are correct that history is this dialectic between (1) totality, stability, structure, identity and presence (i.e. Apollo), versus (2) instability, incompleteness, openness, difference and absence (i.e. Dionysus).

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  138. Rank:

    That doesn't make any sense. Infinite complexity + infinite comprehension != totalized system. It would, as Hart explains, be a system in which there is always more desire and always more comprehension. They become ever greater while already being the ultimate: they are never totalized. Just as the soul's vision of God increases in never-ending complexity, so too are the relations of the hypostases always more and more; they are never "complete", even though God is the absolute fullness of being to which nothing may be added. It is because God is that fullness that he may never be exhausted.

    That doesn’t make any sense.

    First, what does “always more” mean to an atemporal God that exists in an eternal present? Where does the “more” come from? Was there “less” before? How can you have “more” without an earlier “less”? But there is neither “earlier” nor “less” with God. What you are describing is a process within God, which makes no sense, because processes are temporal and involve the transition from potential to actual, which is impossible when it comes to God.

    Second, you still haven’t answered how God can be fully present to himself in his knowledge, and yet not fully know himself. Either he totally knows himself or he partially knows himself. Those are the only two options. If he totally knows himself, then he knows himself as a totality, even if it is an infinite totality. If you are saying that an infinite totality is nonsensical, then it follows that God cannot totally know himself. If you want to say that he partially knows himself, then you are stuck with how a simple God without composition can “partially” know himself, as well as with the idea that there is something outside of his knowledge, i.e. the part that God does not know. It seems that the whole idea is incoherent.

    This would apply if we were dealing in a finite economy. When we speak of the infinite, all kinds of craziness becomes possible.

    Exactly. When you are running along the limits of language and thought, and possibly have gone beyond them, then the impossible can become necessary, which is probably the ultimate kind of “craziness”. In other words, an essential part of a system may be impossible from the perspective of that system, which appears from the outside to be incoherent.

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  139. Jonathan,

    I'm sure I speak for dguller, too, when I say that I really appreciate it. I get a huge kick out of these debates, and I learn a lot in the process.

    dguller,

    I actually think that Aquinas is an onto-theologian, even though his thought does contain tendencies towards an escape from onto-theology. After all, remember what onto-theology is supposed to be about. It is supposed to be the study of being itself, and not simply about particular regions of being, which is what makes it ontology. This certainly seems to be the case for Aquinas. It is also supposed to make the further determination that in order to understand being as being one must posit a supreme or ultimate ground for that being, which is what makes it theology. The combination of the study of being as being and the need for a supreme and ultimate ground of that being is onto-theology. This is also the case for Aquinas. So, I think that it’s fair to say that Aquinas does practice onto-theology.

    Onto-theology posits a "supreme being" that sits above all "lesser beings". Aquinas does not do this. His God is not a "supreme being", but subsistent being itself.

    Further, it is impossible to study "being itself" for Aquinas, because being is esse and esse only exists, for us, as particularized. It is not a genus: it cannot be applied to different things in the same sense. As Oderberg says, to abstract away everything until we reach something's "being" is a mistake, because in doing so we abstract away the being itself. Being is particular: beings are related analogically, rather than univocally. As a result, it is impossible to say that esse is onto-theological.

    After all, he certainly prioritizes in terms of being more fundamental and more perfect: presence over absence, act over potency, Pure Act over impure act, unity over diversity, simplicity over complexity, eternity over temporality, esse over ens, and so on. And all of these have to do with the full and eternal presence of a simple unity as the highest form of existence, which primarily occurs in the divine, and secondarily occurs in the human intellect in the beautific vision of the divine.

    This is a gross misunderstanding of Aquinas. To say that, for instance, presence is placed "over against" (Hart's term) absence is to understand Aquinas's ontology as univocal, like Aristotle's. When we use the word "simple", it's "over against" the complex; and so forth. But that's just wrong. First of all, God does not exist in any sense as a "better version" of us. Attribution is one-way: creation resembles the creator, analogically, but the creator does not resemble creation. Esse is not a "pure act", a "better version" placed over against lesser versions: it cannot be understood in these terms.

    I decided to scan a few of the relevant pages from The Beauty of the Infinite for you to check out:

    http://i.imgur.com/38UOK.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/GnOFT.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/lBiW1.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/O3SuL.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/SAYbX.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/95bU2.jpg

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  140. I see this as similar to Derrida’s project. He is trying to talk about something that he technically cannot talk about, except indirectly via absences and traces and differing and deferring “things”. These “things” are like origins, but different. They are like a ground, but different. They are like a foundation, but different. Analogy is at the heart of Derrida’s project, because univocality and equivocality are impossible for it to proceed, much in the same way that they make talk about divine names impossible.

    But, again, all of this rests on a separate foundation: that of semiotics and representationalism. That is the entire core of his philosophy. There is no trace without a signifier; and there is no signifier without semiotics. There is no writing without representation; and there is no representation, in the necessary sense, without representationalism. The same goes for all of his ideas.

    It would be like abstracting the form of “triangle” without including “lines”. It just isn’t possible. So, when we are talking about God, what exactly are we holding in our minds?

    Derrida himself admits that differance is essentially apophatic theology--and I agree. But there is no differance without the more fundamental structure, which would itself be undermined by differance.

    I think that you are not taking his idea that the uncovering of a necessary impossibility does not necessarily collapse the system into nothingness, but rather points towards its inherent instability, incompleteness, lack of full authority and power over us, and gives us some wiggle room to escape it, if something better is available.

    But this, once more, is only possible if we accept deconstruction. A normal philosopher would look at an "impossibility" and say, "Well, there's a reason not to endorse that system." Take the Third Man problem, for instance. Derrida points to these things and says, "Every system is already invaded by contradiction and impossibility." Why? Because he says that we may only operate within his structure: one of historical signifiers, infinite texts, traces, difference, deferral and so on. You heard the man: history itself is a dialectic between chaos and order, and it is impossible to escape from it. There is nothing outside of history--history being his explicit definition of the text. None of his ideas escape history (representation, the text, etc.). The only option is to place them at the origin of history, which is what he does with arche-writing, difference, justice, blah, blah, blah. In this way, they are safe from relativity.

    But this utterly fails to answer my objection. You cannot place semiotics or representationalism at the origin of history, because they are simply theories. They have alternatives; they have multiple interpretations. They can be rejected without contradiction. I reject them both. Aquinas rejects them both. Now, how can Derrida counterattack? It's impossible to do so without begging the question: without presupposing the unquestionable truth of representationalism and semiotics.

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  141. He could ask you what you mean when you say “I don’t believe that representationalism is true”. And you would respond with … words. And when he asks what you mean by those words, then you will respond with more … words. You can never respond with a transcendental signified independent of the network of concepts and words within which it would be embedded. The whole system is suffused with teleology and intentionality, but it is a teleology and intentionality that is not fully present to the intention of the individual, because there is a history of the terms that they are using that is absent, and there is a future in which those terms can be further modified that is outside of that individual’s access. Hence, the traces and absences and deferring differences of the signs and words.

    This is just another question-begging retort. If Derrida did this, he would be assuming the truth of the very theories that I disagree with. It cannot possibly be otherwise.

    The claim that there is no "transcendental signified" is a perfect example. Why? Because the transcendental signified is something that signifiers must signify: it is part of a semiotic structure. But I don't subscribe to a system in which meaning is obtained from the referent, as in semiotics. As a Thomist, I hold that meaning is intrinsic to the words themselves. The words don't "refer" to anything: they themselves are form-matter hybrids, suffused with their own meaning--"derived intentionality". Further, the "transcendental signified" presupposes represenationalism, since it is, by definition, something beyond representation. But I'm not a representationalist: I'm a direct realist, like Aquinas.

    Now, because it can be shown that coherent alternatives to semiotics and representationalism exist, it must be the case that, at the core of Derrida's philosophy, we have at least two baseless assumptions that his own conclusions necessarily render relative. Nagel's dilemma holds, and Derrida's system crumbles.

    Elements of them must remain stable, true, but not permanent. Again, a bridge can serve perfectly, well even if it eventually falls apart. With regards to systems, there is always incompleteness, which is why the undeconstructables always have to do with the Other, what is beyond the horizon, outside the economy of the Same, which ultimately comes down to being outside of a present system that attempts to be a totality that encloses everything within it, giving everything a permanent and proper place.

    Representationalism and semiotics cannot themselves be undeconstructable, for reasons discussed above.

    No, you use the historicality of the signifier to show that there are absences in the presence of the signifier in the intention of the speaker, for example, and which shows that a metaphysics of presence is impossible. And if it is impossible to have a fully present meaning and significance of a signifier, then there is always an opening for something new beyond the horizon, outside of our awareness and our expectations that we should try to be prepared for. That is not “circular nonsense”.

    That would not be to deconstruct semiotics. Deconstructing semiotics would be to show that the very idea of "signifiers" and "signifieds" is historical, which, essentially, would be to use semiotics to undermine semiotics. You use the historicality of the signifiers provided by semiotics to show the historicality of semiotics, meaning that you use the idea of the historicality of signifiers to show the historicality of the very idea of signifiers. It cannot be done coherently: it's a logical loop.

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  142. They are structural features of all theories that can be deconstructed, and they involve those loose fragments and supplements that choke the system and grind it to a halt in its totalizing processes, as well as resist its attempt to level all differences into homogeneity.

    Again, this only works if we presuppose his fundamental assumptions, which cannot themselves be within history or be "history itself", on pains of begging the question and/or arguing by assertion.

    So, he does not need to step outside the text, but rather only to notice the absences within the text, identify and name them, and then observe their role in how the text actually functions. Maybe this helps?

    It would if representationalism and semiotics were not positive accounts. But they are. They are not absences but presences, and they are presences that may be questioned, interpreted and dismissed without contradiction. Semiotics and representationalism are the source of the text itself: they cannot be within it. The idea of "historicality", the idea of the "Other", the idea of the "Same", the idea of "deferral"--all are generated by his endorsement of representationalism and semiotics. But these are the ideas that he says are history itself. Representationalism and semiotics cannot be history itself, since they generate it and, unlike "history itself", they can be questioned and rejected. Within Derrida's system, difference and deferral--history itself--cannot be questioned. They are axiomatic: to question them is to participate in them. But this requires previous commitments that are undermined by their own conclusions. Derrida's system, quite simply, is a giant reductio ad absurdum of representationalism and semiotics.

    Without angels, there is a gap in the chain, which is also impossible.

    That’s too bad. I was interested in your comments on it.


    I'm still a beginner at this part of Aquinas. The relationship of subsistent intelligences (i.e. souls) to bodies has not taken up much of my reading time. All I know is that it has been the subject of many, many long-winded debates over the centuries. Perhaps we can return to this topic in the future; but, for now, I really don't know enough about it.

    First, what does “always more” mean to an atemporal God that exists in an eternal present? Where does the “more” come from? Was there “less” before? How can you have “more” without an earlier “less”? But there is neither “earlier” nor “less” with God. What you are describing is a process within God, which makes no sense, because processes are temporal and involve the transition from potential to actual, which is impossible when it comes to God.

    We are now getting into extremely complex theological matters that require a good deal of reading to understand. This is why I must, again, implore you to read The Beauty of the Infinite. If you're still involved in other books, I think this article by Hart gives a decent idea: http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/01/the-lively-god-of-robert-jenson-4

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  143. Second, you still haven’t answered how God can be fully present to himself in his knowledge, and yet not fully know himself. Either he totally knows himself or he partially knows himself. Those are the only two options.

    This is a false dichotomy if we're talking about the infinite. How can it be the case that the infinite can exhaust the infinite? How can the infinite enclose the infinite? That is what it would mean for God to know himself as a totality. It is, of course, utterly impossible. Further, the very idea that God understands as a human understands is to miss the point of analogy: God "understands", quotation marks always in place. There can never be a univocal predication made of God. Now, we know that God knows himself, in some sense, but it simply cannot be the case that God knows himself as a totality, both because this is logically impossible and because God does not know in the same way that we know. It is also impossible that he does not know all of himself. Therefore, there must be a third option: that he and his knowing of himself cannot ever be enclosed, because neither has an end.

    Exactly. When you are running along the limits of language and thought, and possibly have gone beyond them, then the impossible can become necessary, which is probably the ultimate kind of “craziness”. In other words, an essential part of a system may be impossible from the perspective of that system, which appears from the outside to be incoherent.

    This is irrelevant to my points about Derrida. Also, just because God is "unknowable", it does not follow that he is "impossible". Infinity is an unknowable concept in mathematics--only its margins may be understood--, but it does not follow that it's impossible. God's infinity is not identical to mathematical infinity, but it's close enough for the analogy to stick.

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  144. Rank:

    Onto-theology posits a "supreme being" that sits above all "lesser beings". Aquinas does not do this. His God is not a "supreme being", but subsistent being itself.

    Then I’m confused. On the one hand, you say that Caputo claims that Aquinas is an onto-theologian, and yet, on the other hand, you say that Aquinas cannot be an onto-theologian, because he does not posit a supreme being, but rather being itself, as the ground of existence. Didn’t I provide a direct quote of Caputo that said the exact same thing?

    Here it is again: “I do not think that Thomistic metaphysics is onto-theo-logic in the strong sense. It is not an onto-logic insofar as its focus is on esse, not ens; not a theo-logic, insofar as God is not a highest being so much as pure Being; not an outright –logic, inasmuch as it admits of the deconstruction of which I am speaking here.” (H&A, p. 285n5).

    In other words, in order for an individual to be an onto-theologian, there must be (1) onto, (2) theo, and (3) logic. He agrees with you that (2) does not apply, and thus Aquinas cannot be an onto-theologian. You seem to disagree with Caputo’s claim regarding (3), but that is irrelevant, because one needs all (1) to (3) to be an onto-theologian, and Caputo agrees that Aquinas does not meet this criteria, and thus cannot be an onto-theologian.

    Further, it is impossible to study "being itself" for Aquinas, because being is esse and esse only exists, for us, as particularized. It is not a genus: it cannot be applied to different things in the same sense. As Oderberg says, to abstract away everything until we reach something's "being" is a mistake, because in doing so we abstract away the being itself. Being is particular: beings are related analogically, rather than univocally. As a result, it is impossible to say that esse is onto-theological.

    But then you also agree with Caputo’s point regarding (1). He said that Aquinas cannot be said to have “onto”, because ontology studies ens as the foundation of reality, and yet esse is the real foundation. Esse is beyond ens, and thus beyond our intellect, which can only deal with essences that can be distinguished from their esse, because otherwise, to hold the essence in mind would be for the being itself to exist in our mind, not as an abstraction, but as a reality. So, this is just more agreement between yourself and Caputo.

    And with regards to Caputo’s point about (3), he argues that logic is in the realm of ratio and not intellectus. Ratio is about reasoning from premises to conclusions, a series of steps, a process, a building of a structure made up of multiple components that fit together according to rules and restrictions. It is at home with composition and not simplicity. Intellectus, on the other hand, is at home with simplicity, because it is an act of holistic intellectual intuition that sees the whole without a series of steps unfolding over time, without a bunch of steps that need to be followed, but rather a singular vision that is perceived all at once, a pure and full presence to intellectus. So, if the only way to conceive or perceive esse is via intellectus and not ratio, then there cannot be said to be a “logic” involved, but rather a direct intuitional apprehension of intellectus -- which is closer to the Truth, because the Truth is simple, not composite -- rather than the painstaking, step-by-step efforts of ratio to reach the summit.

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  145. Rank:

    And furthermore, it raises the issue of how we can even speak analogically about Being itself if we cannot hold the essence or form of Being itself in our intellect. We can hold the essence or form of a particular being, or ens, in mind, but that is all. And we cannot use further judgment to analyze and synthesize a new form of Being itself, because this is impossible, and for a number of reasons, including the fact that to hold the form of Being itself is to have Being itself actually present in our intellect, which is impossible. So, then what exactly do we think when we think Being itself? It does not seem that we think about anything when we think of Being itself, and thus how can analogy even get going?

    This is a gross misunderstanding of Aquinas. To say that, for instance, presence is placed "over against" (Hart's term) absence is to understand Aquinas's ontology as univocal, like Aristotle's. When we use the word "simple", it's "over against" the complex; and so forth. But that's just wrong. First of all, God does not exist in any sense as a "better version" of us. Attribution is one-way: creation resembles the creator, analogically, but the creator does not resemble creation. Esse is not a "pure act", a "better version" placed over against lesser versions: it cannot be understood in these terms.

    Exactly. God is the most perfect, and thus his “properties” are associated with perfection, and they include presence (versus absence), act (versus potency), simplicity (versus composition), eternity (versus temporality), unity (versus diversity), and so on. And when you put these “properties” together, you get the full and eternal presence of an unchanging and simple unity as the most perfect form of existence from which all imperfect forms of existence derive their existence from by virtue of their participation in the perfect form of existence.

    I decided to scan a few of the relevant pages from The Beauty of the Infinite for you to check out:

    Thanks. It was a good summary. I think I’ll just buy the book. A few comments.

    I really like Hart’s critique on p. 222 that Heidegger’s critique of metaphysics as taking particular properties of beings and associating them with Being as fundamental properties is a mistake he himself makes by associating “temporal change” with Being. Ha! And I can see why the doctrine of analogy is so necessary. It starts with beings and takes them seriously as really existing, and not in an illusory or fake way, and then says that each is like the other in some ways, but different in others. And that similarity is what binds them together as really existing. However, it also makes it impossible, because it is impossible to even think about this similarity, as I mentioned above. After all, similarity implies “partly the same, partly different”. What part is “the same”? That would be Being itself, except that we cannot even think that at all, because we cannot hold the form or essence of Being itself in our minds at all. In other words, we must talk about Being, and yet we cannot talk about Being. A necessary impossibility maybe?

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  146. Rank:

    But, again, all of this rests on a separate foundation: that of semiotics and representationalism. That is the entire core of his philosophy. There is no trace without a signifier; and there is no signifier without semiotics. There is no writing without representation; and there is no representation, in the necessary sense, without representationalism. The same goes for all of his ideas.

    I think that you’re right, but I don’t think that this necessary undermines his project as you claim. As I said, the only thing he rejects as impossible is permanent and full presence. Permanent partial presences? Sure. Permanent partial absences? Sure. Transient stability of presence? Sure. Transient stability of absence? Sure. Permanent and total presence? Hell no. That’s his critique in a nutshell, as far as I understand it.

    Derrida himself admits that differance is essentially apophatic theology--and I agree. But there is no differance without the more fundamental structure, which would itself be undermined by differance.

    They are certainly related. Here’s Caputo (again):

    “Deconstruction is deeply enamored of the strategic and formal resources of negative theology. Deconstruction loves the way that negative theology has found to say the unsayable, the twist and turns it takes in dealing with the impossible by which it has been struck, with its impossible desire, all of which Derrrida deeply admires, so that to be compared with negative theology is no criticism for him, but a high compliment that associates him with the best families. But in the end, Derrida must defer this honor and decline this high compliment and ‘fess up that deconstruction consorts with bastards. Deconstruction has not to do with the hyperousios, the super-being beyond being, but with something like khora, a cousin/cousine if there is such a thing, something that is neither a being nor a non-being, but a certain “quasi-condition” within which both are inscribed. So Derrida thinks of negative theology as a kind of “hyperessentialism”, faced with the problem of how not to speak of a “transcendent” being beyond being, whereas deconstruction, humbly and from below, has the problem of how not to speak of this quasi-transcendental condition, this necessity or necessary condition, this condition of possibility and impossibility, called differance” (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, pp. 102-3).

    And you didn’t comment on my argument that according to Aquinas’ own account of knowledge, it is impossible even to think about God at all, because we cannot hold anything about him in our minds, except negatively. But the doctrine of analogy is supposed to allow us some positive information by virtue of the similarity between beings and Being itself. And yet, the sameness between them that grounds the similarity is literally unthinkable, and thus unknowable. We cannot even think of God partly correct, because he has no parts! It is either all or nothing by virtue of his simplicity, and thus if we cannot think him in total, then we cannot think him at all.

    What do you think?

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  147. Rank:

    You heard the man: history itself is a dialectic between chaos and order, and it is impossible to escape from it. There is nothing outside of history--history being his explicit definition of the text. None of his ideas escape history (representation, the text, etc.). The only option is to place them at the origin of history, which is what he does with arche-writing, difference, justice, blah, blah, blah. In this way, they are safe from relativity.

    Again, you think that his jumping inside and outside his system demonstrates a necessary impossibility. It is necessary for his system to have any coherence whatsoever, and yet the price to pay for this coherence is its inclusion of impossibility, which should lead one to reject the system in total, because contradiction and impossibility are reductio’s. That’s the essence of your critique. However, he has a reductio of his own. His claim is that all systems, by their very nature, involve necessary impossibilities, and that would include Thomism. If you are correct that if any system contains necessary impossibilities, then it should be cast to the flames, then there goes Thomism, too. It is a guilt by association argument.

    Furthermore, I have already told you that he accepts the need for undeconstructables that set the stage for deconstruction to occur. And the justification for these undeconstructables is that they are absolutely necessary to make sense of what is happening. Just like potential being had to be postulated to make sense of change, and yet it was a new kind of being that combined elements of act and non-being into something novel, so the undeconstructables of justice, differance, and so on, can be said to do the same.

    This is just another question-begging retort. If Derrida did this, he would be assuming the truth of the very theories that I disagree with. It cannot possibly be otherwise.

    It is not question-begging. If you told me that gravity did not exist, and I asked you to jump out of a window to see, would it make sense for you to say, “That’s question-begging!” In fact, it is a test of the theory. Similarly, the best way for you to refute Derrida on this point is to talk about something without talking about it, to refer to something without connecting it to any system of signification or meaning.

    As a Thomist, I hold that meaning is intrinsic to the words themselves. The words don't "refer" to anything: they themselves are form-matter hybrids, suffused with their own meaning--"derived intentionality". Further, the "transcendental signified" presupposes represenationalism, since it is, by definition, something beyond representation. But I'm not a representationalist: I'm a direct realist, like Aquinas.

    First, how can meaning be intrinsic to the words themselves if they have derived intentionality? Wouldn’t that mean that meaning is extrinsic to the words by virtue of the intentionality of a subject that means something by the words?

    Second, even Aquinas was a kind of representationalist, i.e. our thoughts are the byproduct of a series of processes within the sensory and intellectual parts of the mind functioning in a reliable fashion to connect with the truth outside the mind. What we hold in our minds is not what exists outside the mind. Our mind re-presents what is outside the mind by a series of mental processes involving phantasia and intellect working together properly.

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  148. Rank:

    Now, because it can be shown that coherent alternatives to semiotics and representationalism exist, it must be the case that, at the core of Derrida's philosophy, we have at least two baseless assumptions that his own conclusions necessarily render relative. Nagel's dilemma holds, and Derrida's system crumbles.

    I still don’t see how your account is a coherent alternative. The basic idea of semiotics is that a sign is something (i.e. a signifier) that stands for something else (i.e. a signified). That sign can be a written mark, a verbal sound, a mental image, a conceptual thought, and what they all have in common is that these re-present something else to us. Whatever else you may think about this, I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with this picture.

    That would not be to deconstruct semiotics. Deconstructing semiotics would be to show that the very idea of "signifiers" and "signifieds" is historical, which, essentially, would be to use semiotics to undermine semiotics. You use the historicality of the signifiers provided by semiotics to show the historicality of semiotics, meaning that you use the idea of the historicality of signifiers to show the historicality of the very idea of signifiers. It cannot be done coherently: it's a logical loop.

    We have already established the fact that Derrida endorses undeconstructables. He would be engaging in circular reasoning if he said that everything is deconstructable, but since he does not adhere to this extreme position, there is no circularity. However, there is the question of how he justifies his undeconstructables, and exactly what they are supposed to be. It is my understanding that they are the permanent and necessary presence of absences of different sorts, e.g. the gift, justice, differance, the trace, and so on. And we can observe these absences by virtue of a phenomenological approach in which we clearly experience these absences as present any time we have to assimilate or accommodate something new, which happens in every moment by virtue of repetition. There is always a repetition in which what comes to be is similar to what came before it, which means that there is something that is the same, but also something that is different. Furthermore, the difference that comes to be present can be either a difference that can be assimilated or accommodated into our current system of thought, or it can be a difference that cannot be assimilated or accommodated into our current system of thought. The former would be the present-Other and the latter would be the Other.

    I really don’t see what your objection is here. Do you really deny that every time you use a term, there is the possibility that you could extend the meaning of that term in a new way? That you could learn something new that could shatter your previous way of thinking? That no matter how much certainty you have, there is always the possibility of being shown to be incorrect, or at least, incomplete? Should you behave as a totalitarian and authoritarian who has the Truth and demand that everyone submit to your version of the Truth? Is it impossible that your Truth could be extended, elaborated, taken to new vistas that you never saw coming?

    Much of deconstruction is about being open to the future, to being wrong, to being shown to lack all the answers, to being forced to get on your knees and pray that what you believe and what you do is correct. At least, that’s Caputo’s reading, and it’s the most persuasive reading to me. The alternative is that you ignore history, you ignore your limitations, you exaggerate your strengths, and delude yourself into having the Secret.

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  149. Rank:

    It would if representationalism and semiotics were not positive accounts. But they are. They are not absences but presences, and they are presences that may be questioned, interpreted and dismissed without contradiction. Semiotics and representationalism are the source of the text itself: they cannot be within it. The idea of "historicality", the idea of the "Other", the idea of the "Same", the idea of "deferral"--all are generated by his endorsement of representationalism and semiotics. But these are the ideas that he says are history itself. Representationalism and semiotics cannot be history itself, since they generate it and, unlike "history itself", they can be questioned and rejected. Within Derrida's system, difference and deferral--history itself--cannot be questioned. They are axiomatic: to question them is to participate in them. But this requires previous commitments that are undermined by their own conclusions. Derrida's system, quite simply, is a giant reductio ad absurdum of representationalism and semiotics.

    First, they are combinations of presences and absences. There are signifers, which are present, but they refer to signifieds, which are absent, and even this signification itself involves a background context, which is largely absent, and yet influencing the signification itself. And by studying history, we see that terms have changed meanings, that no meaning remains the same throughout all history, which means that meaning is not permanent, but flexible, which does not mean that it is so porous as to lack any content whatsoever. So, how to make sense of these facts? How do account for the presences and the absences, and their interrelationship? Do you necessarily have to stand outside of this process in order to know anything about it? Do you have to see things three dimensionally in order to know anything in two dimensions?

    Second, you seem to deny any stability whatsoever in this system. Perhaps you are reading too much into Derrida’s notion of “play”. Play is not reckless abandon. Play is not random chaos. Play has rules, but those rules are not written in stone, and even if they were, that stone could fade over time, obliterating those rules. Your reductio only applies if deconstruction said that everything was deconstructable, but it does not. A better line of attack would be to argue that what Derrida chooses to be undeconstructable is arbitrary, and largely due to his ethical concerns regarding protecting the weak, the underdogs, the excluded, the marginalized, those who are left out of the party of the system, forced to look inside through shuttered windows. Why take that perspective and not another? That’s a reasonable and pointed argument to make. I think that Derrida would probably answer that his undeconstructables are built right into the very possibility of linguistic communication, and since we do, in fact, communicate linguistically, then they must be there. Then the question is how to account for their presence (or absence), and then you get to the point where you are at the margins, or even beyond them, and meaning begins to break down. But, this is the case even for Thomism. We cannot talk about Being itself either, and yet we talk about it all the time, and depend upon it as the foundation of all the change that we see around us.

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  150. Rank:

    I'm still a beginner at this part of Aquinas. The relationship of subsistent intelligences (i.e. souls) to bodies has not taken up much of my reading time. All I know is that it has been the subject of many, many long-winded debates over the centuries. Perhaps we can return to this topic in the future; but, for now, I really don't know enough about it.

    Okay. I only brought them up, because they serve as a nice example of a necessary impossibility within Aquinas’ system. His system would make no sense without angels, largely because they mediate our understanding of how an immaterial God and an immaterial intellect could work. But, given his own principles, such things should be impossible, because they are neither universal nor particular. Furthermore, they serve as a good example of how Aquinas starts with terms that seem to have a clear meaning and application, and then pushes, stretches and bends them into new territory where they seem to be stripped of all meaning, and if they do, in fact, still have meaning, then that meaning has undermined the common sense terms and meanings that were supposed to be the foundation! And this is exactly what a necessary impossibility would be. X is necessary for system S to be possible, but within S, X is impossible.

    We are now getting into extremely complex theological matters that require a good deal of reading to understand. This is why I must, again, implore you to read The Beauty of the Infinite. If you're still involved in other books, I think this article by Hart gives a decent idea: http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/01/the-lively-god-of-robert-jenson-4

    I’m going to order the book, and then maybe we can have a better discussion of this topic, but can’t you give me a hint of what “always more” could possibly mean independent of a temporal process of change?

    This is a false dichotomy if we're talking about the infinite. How can it be the case that the infinite can exhaust the infinite? How can the infinite enclose the infinite? That is what it would mean for God to know himself as a totality. It is, of course, utterly impossible.

    It is not a false dichotomy, but a very germane and important one. Either God is fully present to himself in his knowledge of himself, or God is not fully present to himself in his knowledge of himself. This is a logical truth. P or not-P.

    If the former, then there is no aspect of himself that is absent from his knowledge of himself, and thus there is no “part” of himself that is beyond his knowledge. It all is present within his knowledge, which is what a totality is. After all, a totality is that which fully encompasses and encloses everything within itself without anything outside the totality that does not fit within it. What is inside the totality is fully present within it without any absences. It is like a class with full attendance. There is no-one left outside the classroom. It is full. To say that God’s infinity surpasses his capacity to be a totality, then you have compromised his ability to fully know himself, because that means that something escapes his knowledge, and it implies a limitation to his infinite knowledge.

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  151. Rank:

    Now, if you want to say that it is impossible for the infinite to enclose the infinite, then you have compromised God’s knowledge of himself. You have implied that his infinity surpasses his infinite knowledge, and cannot be contained within it, which means that there are some things about himself that he does not know. However, that is impossible, given divine simplicity, because God has no composition, and thus there are no “parts” within his knowledge and “parts” outside his knowledge. Either all of him is within his knowledge, or none of him is within his knowledge. The only solution, as far as I can see, is to accept that the infinite can enclose the infinite, because this is necessary for God to have knowledge of himself. Or, you can accept this is both necessary and impossible? Another necessary impossibility maybe?

    Further, the very idea that God understands as a human understands is to miss the point of analogy: God "understands", quotation marks always in place. There can never be a univocal predication made of God. Now, we know that God knows himself, in some sense, but it simply cannot be the case that God knows himself as a totality, both because this is logically impossible and because God does not know in the same way that we know. It is also impossible that he does not know all of himself. Therefore, there must be a third option: that he and his knowing of himself cannot ever be enclosed, because neither has an end.

    Knowledge is defined as the possession of form in intellect. It necessarily involves possession within an intellect. For God to know himself, he would have to possess his form within his intellect. And he would have to possess it fully, without any extra spilling out. Or, you can come up with another definition of knowledge that is supposed to encompass both human knowledge and divine knowledge. After all, for an analogy to be possible, there must be sameness at some level, otherwise, you have infinite regress. So, what is the sameness between human knowledge and divine knowledge that grounds the relationship? And if there is no sameness, then how can you possibly say that the former is similar to the latter? In fact, they have nothing in common!

    Also, if God has no end, and his knowledge has no end, then he cannot fully know himself, because there is always more to him than his knowledge can contain. However, that is impossible, because it violates divine simplicity and implies a temporal process of an eternal being (because “always more” implies temporality). So, even your third option is incoherent.

    This is irrelevant to my points about Derrida.

    It is key to your points, because you point to the impossibility of being both inside and outside a system as refuting his system, and yet allow yourself to do the same when it comes to talking about God. You claim definite knowledge about him from within Thomism, and then take it away by shrouding it in mist by draining your words of meaning by placing scare quotes around them. God has knowledge! Well, not knowledge, but “knowledge”. And what’s “knowledge”? I don’t know, but it’s like knowledge! How is it like knowledge? I’m not too sure exactly how. This is analogous to what Derrida is trying to do with his quasi-transcendentals, i.e. claiming knowledge, and then placing scare quotes around them to show that their meaning is not fully present and contained, and then using them anyway, because what choice do we have?

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  152. Rank:

    Also, just because God is "unknowable", it does not follow that he is "impossible". Infinity is an unknowable concept in mathematics--only its margins may be understood--, but it does not follow that it's impossible. God's infinity is not identical to mathematical infinity, but it's close enough for the analogy to stick.

    True, but if God is unknowable, then he is also beyond propositional truth, and thus beyond the reach of reason. It does not follow that he is therefore impossible, but rather that he is beyond any assessment of necessity, possibility or impossibility. He is, strictly speaking, an absence from our knowledge and judgment. In some ways, he is like a trace always left behind during our metaphysical discourse, a hint and a whisper that something is there, but when we turn to look, we see nothing, and yet still have this funny feeling that there is something there anyway.

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  153. Jonathan:

    Thanks, man. I can honestly say that I have never had such stimulating conversation as I have had here with the other commenters. And I'm in no way well-read on this stuff. Not even close. I suspect Rank would have me beat on that score!

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  154. Rank:

    And just one more thing about God’s ability to understand himself.

    Aquinas writes: “He is said to be comprehended by Himself, forasmuch as nothing in Himself is hidden from Himself. For Augustine says (De Vid. Deum. ep. cxii), "The whole is comprehended when seen, if it is seen in such a way that nothing of it is hidden from the seer."” (ST 1a 14.3).

    This implies that God’s knowledge is akin to vision, or intellectual intuition, in which the totality is seen at once, and that is why there is nothing hidden or absent. It is all there at once. As he writes elsewhere: “God sees all things together, and not successively” (ST 1a 14.7).

    Finally, regarding your point that infinity cannot encompass or contain infinity, he writes in an objection: “Now infinite things have no boundary. Therefore they cannot be comprehended by the knowledge of God.” (ST 1a 14.12), and in his reply to that objection, writes: “But God does not know the infinite or infinite things, as if He enumerated part after part; since He knows all things simultaneously, and not successively, as said above (Article 7). Hence there is nothing to prevent Him from knowing infinite things.” (ST 1a 14.12).

    So, because he knows himself simultaneously and all at once in a full and total presence, he necessarily knows himself as a totality in which there is nothing excluded or absent. The infinite can know infinity, but not by succession, but rather as a total presence to itself.

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  155. Then I’m confused. On the one hand, you say that Caputo claims that Aquinas is an onto-theologian, and yet, on the other hand, you say that Aquinas cannot be an onto-theologian, because he does not posit a supreme being, but rather being itself, as the ground of existence. Didn’t I provide a direct quote of Caputo that said the exact same thing?

    Yes. And Caputo is correct on that matter--and on a few others. However, he still declares that Aquinas's metaphysics is ultimately onto-theology, and that it must be deconstructed along Eckhartian lines in order to escape from Heidegger. It has to retreat into total mysticism, devoid of essentialism or systematic philosophy. This is false.

    Also, the understanding of ratio is not an illusion; it is merely an inferior form of knowing. Angels know by pure intellectus, and man knows partly by this. The self-evident axioms of logic, such as the law of non-contradiction, are known through intellectus. I recommend this article, which I linked to Chris earlier: http://medievalmind.blogspot.com/2009/02/ratio-and-intellectus.html

    In other words, in order for an individual to be an onto-theologian, there must be (1) onto, (2) theo, and (3) logic. He agrees with you that (2) does not apply, and thus Aquinas cannot be an onto-theologian. You seem to disagree with Caputo’s claim regarding (3), but that is irrelevant, because one needs all (1) to (3) to be an onto-theologian, and Caputo agrees that Aquinas does not meet this criteria, and thus cannot be an onto-theologian.

    And yet he still concludes that Aquinas, by calling esse "act" and so on, falls into the metaphysics of presence and, by extension, onto-theology. This is where I disagree with him.

    It is at home with composition and not simplicity. Intellectus, on the other hand, is at home with simplicity, because it is an act of holistic intellectual intuition that sees the whole without a series of steps unfolding over time, without a bunch of steps that need to be followed, but rather a singular vision that is perceived all at once, a pure and full presence to intellectus. So, if the only way to conceive or perceive esse is via intellectus and not ratio, then there cannot be said to be a “logic” involved, but rather a direct intuitional apprehension of intellectus -- which is closer to the Truth, because the Truth is simple, not composite -- rather than the painstaking, step-by-step efforts of ratio to reach the summit.

    This would be true. Being cannot be understood logically: only by contemplation.

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  156. And furthermore, it raises the issue of how we can even speak analogically about Being itself if we cannot hold the essence or form of Being itself in our intellect. We can hold the essence or form of a particular being, or ens, in mind, but that is all. And we cannot use further judgment to analyze and synthesize a new form of Being itself, because this is impossible, and for a number of reasons, including the fact that to hold the form of Being itself is to have Being itself actually present in our intellect, which is impossible. So, then what exactly do we think when we think Being itself? It does not seem that we think about anything when we think of Being itself, and thus how can analogy even get going?

    Everything that is, is. Aquinas says that esse (that a thing is) is the first thing grasped by the intellect. (Relevant: http://www.arsdisputandi.org/publish/articles/000184/article.pdf.) Whether or not something is is the uniting aspect. There is nothing that is not. Even absences, like holes in the ground, can be understood as having existence when they are known as "logical beings". Esse is absolutely simple, but it can be viewed in everything that is. Even Heidegger's absences are not non-being: they are absences, they exist in the sense that Aquinas uses that term. Existence is not mere presence, but is in fact the condition for both absence and presence: the "is" in both "X is absent" and "X is present".

    The esse within creatures is always individualized, but its source is an esse that is not individualized. This is the relationship between esse commune and esse divinum. There is no "esse" that can be predicated univocally to all creatures, because the only thing that they have in common is that they all are. (Note: anything that can be known, to any extent, is. In another sense: anything that is known always already is. In this way, we may have an analogy of being: there is nothing that is not.) Aside from this, esse commune is totally individualized. However, the endlessly composite appearances of esse commune have their source in esse divinum, which is in no way composite. But, because it is in no way composite, it is able to contain all of the goodness of esse commune, and infinitely more, in absolutely simple form.

    Remember, too: the "esse" in esse-essence is simple, but nothing in esse commune can be simple. Only God's essence is identical to his esse. As a result, everything that exists participates in God's infinite esse, but everything that exists is not infinite, because, for it to be differentiated from God and have existence as a being (an ens), it must have an added essence. It must be particularized, in other words. So, God's presence may be seen in absolutely all beings, insofar as beings have esse; but God, as esse divinum, remains infinitely different from esse commune. He is our being, but we are not his being.

    Exactly. God is the most perfect, and thus his “properties” are associated with perfection, and they include presence (versus absence), act (versus potency), simplicity (versus composition), eternity (versus temporality), unity (versus diversity), and so on.

    This is wrong. God is neither simple nor complex, neither eternal not temporal, neither united nor divided. He is the possibility for all of these differences, while being none of them. To say that God is "simple" is merely to say that he is not restrained by anything: he has no limitations. All things in esse commune have limitations by virtue of their essences, on the other hand.

    More later.

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  157. Further, to say that God has "no limitations" is not to say that he's unlimited in a sense that we can understand. He is wholly "indeterminate", in Aquinas's words. We know that he must be this way because we can locate "ipsum esse subsistens", apophatically, as the necessary cause of being. But he doesn't even "cause being" in a univocal way. His "causation" is not anything that we can understand. The causation in esse commune is similar to his causation: his causation is not similar to that of esse commune.

    Although I'm not a tremendous fan of Jean-Luc Marion--he gets Aquinas wrong on more than one count--, he has written pretty well on God's one-way relationship with the world. I would also recommend Aquinas's comments on that in the Summa contra Gentiles: http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_12.htm

    God is not like us. He is not like anything. He is not the "presence" in the absence-presence equation. Also, Aquinas explicitly says that he relates to the potential just as much as he does to the actual:

    "The aforesaid relations are predicated of God, not only in respect of things that actually are, but also in respect of things that potentially are, because of them also He has knowledge, and in respect of them He is called both first being and sovereign good. But what actually is bears no real relation to what is not actually but potentially. Now God is not otherwise related to things that actually are than to things that potentially are, because he is not changed by producing anything."

    Again, God is neither potential nor actual, neither present nor absent, neither existence (as we know it) nor non-existence. He is above all such distinctions: he is the ground of all such distinctions.

    Thanks. It was a good summary. I think I’ll just buy the book. A few comments.

    Sounds good. Hart is impenetrable in places--but a good writer nonetheless.

    I really like Hart’s critique on p. 222 that Heidegger’s critique of metaphysics as taking particular properties of beings and associating them with Being as fundamental properties is a mistake he himself makes by associating “temporal change” with Being. Ha! And I can see why the doctrine of analogy is so necessary. It starts with beings and takes them seriously as really existing, and not in an illusory or fake way, and then says that each is like the other in some ways, but different in others. And that similarity is what binds them together as really existing. However, it also makes it impossible, because it is impossible to even think about this similarity, as I mentioned above. After all, similarity implies “partly the same, partly different”. What part is “the same”? That would be Being itself, except that we cannot even think that at all, because we cannot hold the form or essence of Being itself in our minds at all. In other words, we must talk about Being, and yet we cannot talk about Being. A necessary impossibility maybe?

    Being is the first conception of the intellect. We may not be able to grasp it--it is simple--, but it remains true of everything that exists. Thus, the analogy of being obtains.

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  158. And you didn’t comment on my argument that according to Aquinas’ own account of knowledge, it is impossible even to think about God at all, because we cannot hold anything about him in our minds, except negatively. But the doctrine of analogy is supposed to allow us some positive information by virtue of the similarity between beings and Being itself. And yet, the sameness between them that grounds the similarity is literally unthinkable, and thus unknowable. We cannot even think of God partly correct, because he has no parts! It is either all or nothing by virtue of his simplicity, and thus if we cannot think him in total, then we cannot think him at all.

    First, on differance, I think we can safely say that Derrida is simply ignorant when it comes to negative theology. An Aquinas or a Pseudo-Denys would be incomprehensible to him. Even differance would have to be explained by Aquinas's God, because Aquinas's God is the very possibility of absence, the very possibility of possibility.

    Second, even though we cannot rationally comprehend being, it does not follow that we cannot know God. We know God through intellectus, immediately and simply. Intellectus is "contemplation": stillness, without discursive movements from one point to another. Through ratio, we can only be apophatic; through intellectus, we can see God in himself. This is why Aquinas tells us that man's highest happiness is in the speculative intellect (intellectus, essentially): http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2003.htm#article5

    Does this mean that ratio is worthless baggage? No. Does it mean that we should abandoned ratio? No. It is by ratio that we learn of God's existence, and by which we bring ourselves knowledge for contemplation. It is by ratio that we tell right from wrong. It is a very important function of our lives. But it is subordinate to pure contemplation, which is our highest good. Whether or not we become mystics in this life, it is our end in the next. This is why Caputo is utterly wrong about Aquinas.

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  159. Again, you think that his jumping inside and outside his system demonstrates a necessary impossibility. It is necessary for his system to have any coherence whatsoever, and yet the price to pay for this coherence is its inclusion of impossibility, which should lead one to reject the system in total, because contradiction and impossibility are reductio’s. That’s the essence of your critique.

    Not particularly. So that this discussion doesn't balloon any further, I'm going to try to settle this in one fell swoop. Let's see if I can pull it off.

    I don't disagree with Derrida's undeconstructables. I think that, under his terms, difference, differance, the trace, justice and so forth are indeed axiomatic. They cannot be questioned: they are always already there. If I endorsed Derrida's philosophy, I would have no concerns here.

    Now, for Derrida, what is undeconstructable is history itself. If something is undeconstructable, it cannot be within history: anything within history is subject to the conditions of history itself, which include the trace, difference and so on. Things like the trace, then, are not within history. Justice, too. As soon as something enters history--as soon as we represent something--, it is subject to these things. As a result, it becomes impossible to talk about the trace, difference and so on in positive terms, because positivity is representation and representation is within history. As a result, the undeconstructables must only be known apophatically. This all makes perfect sense to me: I agree wholeheartedly.

    Where the problem arises is in a place that Derrida seems to have forgotten. It is a place that he has sealed off from critique. It is before history itself. It is the condition for the condition of history. What is this mysterious place? Why doesn't Derrida ever talk about it? Because, quite simply, it cannot exist under his system. For him, there is only the text: history itself (differance) and its contents (that which is invaded by differance). There is nothing outside of the text. But differance itself has a condition. This means that there must be something outside of the text--outside of differance itself.

    Now, what might this condition be? Why, it's semiological representationalism! Let's look at this theory (S-R) and its relationship to differance (D) in analytic terms.

    1. (D) is true if and only if (S-R) is true.
    2. If (D) is true, then (D) always already applies to all interpretations.
    3. If (D) applies to all interpretations, then historicism (H) is true of all interpretations.
    4. If (H) is true of an interpretation, then that interpretation is relative.
    5. If something is relative, then its truth is a matter of opinion.
    6. But (S-R) is an interpretation.
    7. Therefore, (H) is true of (S-R), and (S-R) is relative.
    8. Therefore, the truth of (S-R) is a matter of opinion.

    Now, can Derrida tell me why I should accept his opinion? Nope.

    As for the issue of an alternative to (S-R), I think we can get back to that some other time. It seems pretty clear that I have no compelling reasons to accept (S-R), since accepting (S-R) = accepting (D) which means that (S-R) is a matter of opinion.

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  160. Perhaps you are reading too much into Derrida’s notion of “play”. Play is not reckless abandon. Play is not random chaos. Play has rules, but those rules are not written in stone, and even if they were, that stone could fade over time, obliterating those rules.

    Play's rules are effaced even as they are written. That's Derrida's way, and it was Nietzsche's way, too. Regardless, I think my point was summarized decently well above.

    I’m going to order the book, and then maybe we can have a better discussion of this topic, but can’t you give me a hint of what “always more” could possibly mean independent of a temporal process of change?

    When you count infinity, there is always another number. When you describe something infinitely beautiful, it is always more beautiful. If you have an infinite amount of knowledge, then your knowledge has no end.

    If the former, then there is no aspect of himself that is absent from his knowledge of himself, and thus there is no “part” of himself that is beyond his knowledge. It all is present within his knowledge, which is what a totality is. After all, a totality is that which fully encompasses and encloses everything within itself without anything outside the totality that does not fit within it. What is inside the totality is fully present within it without any absences.

    First, because God is neither an absence nor a presence, it is impossible to describe him in the terms you're using above. Second, let's tackle the problem of God's knowledge a bit more systematically.

    God is "infinite", in the sense of being metaphysically simple and therefore without any limitations. He is not infinite in the same way that an infinite set is infinite, because he, unlike the infinite set, is not limited in any respect. Now, Aquinas tells us that God knows himself fully. But God is infinite. What does this mean? Well, first, it's important to remember that God's knowledge is identical to his esse, which is identical to his goodness, which is identical to his beauty and so forth. God does not have esse and then have an understanding of his esse: his esse and his knowledge of his esse are simultaneous. But this means that God's knowledge is infinite as well. There is no "end point" to his knowledge, just as there is no "end point" to his esse. This means that there is always more of God's knowledge: there is no way for God's knowledge to end. There is an "ever greater" amount of knowledge, an "ever greater" amount of esse. There is no change because God is above act and potency, and he does not in any way have a limited essence: but this does not prevent God from having no end. There is no totality here.

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  161. And this is exactly what a necessary impossibility would be. X is necessary for system S to be possible, but within S, X is impossible.

    This is only the case if your understanding of Aquinas's view of angels is correct. And--no offense--I have serious doubts about that. However, I will defer to those who know more about the subject for now.

    Second, even Aquinas was a kind of representationalist, i.e. our thoughts are the byproduct of a series of processes within the sensory and intellectual parts of the mind functioning in a reliable fashion to connect with the truth outside the mind. What we hold in our minds is not what exists outside the mind. Our mind re-presents what is outside the mind by a series of mental processes involving phantasia and intellect working together properly.

    Actually, things outside of the mind all possess forms and essences of some kind or other. And these forms are obtained by the senses by way of sensible species. Google Books gave me a long section from Stump's Aquinas that explains how it works--there's no representationalism here.

    I suspect Rank would have me beat on that score!

    Oh, no way. My reading on Aquinas has been limited to TLS, Real Essentialism, assorted passages from his works and lots of Google searching. I have to research as I go when I argue with you.

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  163. I suppose Hart's work counts, too--but he doesn't talk about Aquinas much. That, and tons of Feser blog posts. And academic articles. I guess I've done more reading than I realize.

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  164. Rank:

    Yes. And Caputo is correct on that matter--and on a few others. However, he still declares that Aquinas's metaphysics is ultimately onto-theology, and that it must be deconstructed along Eckhartian lines in order to escape from Heidegger. It has to retreat into total mysticism, devoid of essentialism or systematic philosophy. This is false.

    Where does he say this? Can you quote him, specifically regarding onto-theology? I have my copy of his book, and haven’t been able to find anything like what you claim. He actually denies, again and again, that Aquinas is an onto-theologian. Here’s yet another example: “The doctrine of esse subsistens in St. Thomas is no more a “theo”-logic in Heidegger’s sense than it is an “onto”-logic. Thomas does not take God to be an individual being, and he shows precious little interest in esse commune” (H&A, p. 157). His argument is with the “-logic” part of onto-theology, and he claims that Aquinas has an inherent tension within his system between (1) the necessity of a science of Being, and (2) the impossibility of a science of Being. Furthermore, he argues that one possible resolution of the tension between (1) and (2) is Eckhartian mysticism. That’s all.

    Also, the understanding of ratio is not an illusion; it is merely an inferior form of knowing. Angels know by pure intellectus, and man knows partly by this. The self-evident axioms of logic, such as the law of non-contradiction, are known through intellectus.

    First, it depends on what you take as “real”. If Being itself, or subsistent esse, is taken as fundamental and primary, creating and sustaining the multiplity of beings that participate in esse commune, then if ratio is unable to reach Being itself, then it has failed to reach real reality, and thus can be understood to be illusory, in the sense of presenting something as real2, which is really not real1, to use our earlier terminology.

    Second, even the law of non-contradiction (LNC) has indirect reasoning, or ratio, to support it. You can neither affirm nor deny the LNC coherently without the LNC. To deny the LNC is to invoke the LNC. But I agree that it can also be seen to be true via intellectual intuition by the mental gridlock and breakdown that occurs when trying to reject it.

    And yet he still concludes that Aquinas, by calling esse "act" and so on, falls into the metaphysics of presence and, by extension, onto-theology. This is where I disagree with him.

    His critique is neither onto-theology nor metaphysics of presence. It is that Heidegger’s critique claimed that Aquinas identified a particular quality of a specific region of Being, and generalized it to Being itself. In other words, that he failed to recognize the ontological difference between Being and beings, which is different from onto-theology and the metaphysics of presence. I think you are mistaken about the target of the critique.

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  165. Rank:

    Everything that is, is. Aquinas says that esse (that a thing is) is the first thing grasped by the intellect. (Relevant: http://www.arsdisputandi.org/publish/articles/000184/article.pdf.) Whether or not something is is the uniting aspect. There is nothing that is not. Even absences, like holes in the ground, can be understood as having existence when they are known as "logical beings". Esse is absolutely simple, but it can be viewed in everything that is. Even Heidegger's absences are not non-being: they are absences, they exist in the sense that Aquinas uses that term. Existence is not mere presence, but is in fact the condition for both absence and presence: the "is" in both "X is absent" and "X is present".

    And this is why I want to focus upon this issue, because it is an excellent example of a necessary impossibility. Of course, we must talk about being, and we must think about being, because whatever we think about participates in being, or else we would think and talk about nothing. It is absolutely necessary, and is “the first thing grasped by the intellect”. Furthermore, we cannot help but do metaphysics, which is the study of being, because even refuting metaphysics involves metaphysics. There is simply not escape from it.

    And yet, how is this possible? First, our intellect can only grasp forms. It knows by abstracting forms via the active intellect and then holding them via the passive intellect. How can this occur with being? Being has no form. Being is the cause of forms, the actuality of actuality, and thus is beyond forms, and thus beyond intellectual apprehension. Second, even if being had a form, its form is its esse, and to have its form in the intellect would be to have its esse, as well, and thus being itself would actually exist in the intellect, and not as an abstraction, but as the real deal, which is impossible. Third, even using the analogy of being presupposes the existence of something in common between all beings. What is this commonality supposed to be? We both know and don’t know.

    So, we have an inherent tension, a passionate intensity, involved with metaphysics. A desire and need to play a game that is rigged against us. We are like Sisyphus, doomed to participate in an activity that has no need, that opens with cracks just when we think we have patched up all the holes. That is what Derrida means when he talks about the necessity of the impossible.

    The esse within creatures is always individualized, but its source is an esse that is not individualized. This is the relationship between esse commune and esse divinum.

    Right. And there is no such thing as a separate esse commune, either. In other words, there is no esse subsistens and esse commune, and then there are the particular beings. There is esse subsistens and particular beings, but those beings have a kind of being that is abstracted by the intellect and called esse commune. There is no esse commune without the particular beings that have it. And that is because it is impossible for beings to participate in esse subsistens, and so they have to participate in esse commune instead.

    There is no "esse" that can be predicated univocally to all creatures, because the only thing that they have in common is that they all are. (Note: anything that can be known, to any extent, is. In another sense: anything that is known always already is. In this way, we may have an analogy of being: there is nothing that is not.) Aside from this, esse commune is totally individualized. However, the endlessly composite appearances of esse commune have their source in esse divinum, which is in no way composite.

    Right.

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  166. Rank:

    But, because it is in no way composite, it is able to contain all of the goodness of esse commune, and infinitely more, in absolutely simple form.

    First, here is another instance of tension. How can God, being simple, share anything of himself without sharing all of himself? There are no degrees, and there are no parts or partiality involved with him. He is totally full, and he is utterly simple. In other words, he is all-or-nothing. So, how can something that is all-or-nothing share a part of himself without sharing all of himself? After all, either all of him is there, or none of him is there. Anything else violates divine simplicity.

    Second, here you talk about “contain all” and “infinitely more”. So, are you now saying that an infinite totality is possible? After all, what else is a totality, except the complete containment with nothing left outside?

    Remember, too: the "esse" in esse-essence is simple, but nothing in esse commune can be simple. Only God's essence is identical to his esse. As a result, everything that exists participates in God's infinite esse, but everything that exists is not infinite, because, for it to be differentiated from God and have existence as a being (an ens), it must have an added essence. It must be particularized, in other words. So, God's presence may be seen in absolutely all beings, insofar as beings have esse; but God, as esse divinum, remains infinitely different from esse commune. He is our being, but we are not his being.

    Right, but my comments above apply here, too.

    First, God is always present to us by virtue of the fact that our existence is sustained by his constant presence, and God is always present to himself in a full and complete presence via his infinite knowledge of himself. Again, this looks like the metaphysics of presence to me.

    Second, the esse in ens is either esse subsistens or esse commune. It cannot be esse subsistens, because then God would be fully present in ens, which is impossible, because ens is finite and God is infinite, amongst a number of other reasons for its impossibility. So, it must be esse commune. However, you say that esse commune is not simple, and yet the esse in ens must be simple. So, we have a contradiction here.

    This is wrong. God is neither simple nor complex, neither eternal not temporal, neither united nor divided. He is the possibility for all of these differences, while being none of them. To say that God is "simple" is merely to say that he is not restrained by anything: he has no limitations. All things in esse commune have limitations by virtue of their essences, on the other hand.

    First, to say that God is “simple” means that he does not admit of composition. Here’s Aquinas: “For there is neither composition of quantitative parts in God, since He is not a body; nor composition of matter and form; nor does His nature differ from His "suppositum"; nor His essence from His existence; neither is there in Him composition of genus and difference, nor of subject and accident. Therefore, it is clear that God is nowise composite, but is altogether simple.” (ST 1a 3.7). Can you quote Aquinas to support your interpretation, or are you identifying an implicit tendency within his texts that you are trying to make explicit?

    Second, God is sounding suspiciously like differance on your account. You seem to be hovering in an area that is simply beyond even the LNC. To say that God is neither simple nor complex is akin to saying not-(p or not-p), which is just the logic equivalent of not-LNC. It seems that you are teetering on the edge of absurdity, at least from a particular systematic perspective. But I think that you are trying to capture something that is simply beyond our language and concepts, and good for you for trying, because we cannot help but make this foolhardy attempt.

    More later.

    Can’t wait. :)

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  167. Rank:

    Further, to say that God has "no limitations" is not to say that he's unlimited in a sense that we can understand. He is wholly "indeterminate", in Aquinas's words. We know that he must be this way because we can locate "ipsum esse subsistens", apophatically, as the necessary cause of being. But he doesn't even "cause being" in a univocal way. His "causation" is not anything that we can understand. The causation in esse commune is similar to his causation: his causation is not similar to that of esse commune.

    First, all of this seems to be a close relative to Derrida’s deconstruction, which makes this discussion all the more interesting, because what you condemn in Derrida in also present in your own account of God. You are using words that have a determinate meaning, and then immediately draining them of that meaning: “limitations”, “cause”, “being”, and so on, but none of these terms have a determinate meaning. As soon as you think you have a toehold (“I got it!”), you immediately slip and fall back to where you came (“What just happened?”).

    Second, God is limited by general principles of logic and reason. He cannot do an impossibility, for example, but not because an impossibility is some thing that blocks or restrains him, but because an impossibility is not a thing at all. It is nothing at all. That being said, he does have some limitations. For example, once he has decided upon a course of affairs, he cannot “change his mind”, as it were. After all, he necessarily chooses the good, and so once he has chosen, then it necessarily must be good, and he cannot possibly choose evil, because evil does not exist.

    Third, I think the following principle is necessarily true: if X is similar to Y, then Y is similar to X. And that is because if X is similar to Y, then X is partly identical to Y, and partly different from Y. The parts that are identical between X and Y are the same whether you are looking from X to Y or Y to X, and the same holds with the parts that are different. If this is correct, then that would mean that if the causation in esse commune is similar to the causation in esse subsistens, then the causation in esse subsistens must be similar to the causation in esse commune. Do you know of any non-divine counter-examples to this principle? Otherwise, rejecting it would be a case of special pleading, no? And if we can just reject general principles willy nilly when they conflict with our conception of the divine, then doesn’t that open theology up in a fashion that defies any kind of definitive conclusions?

    God is not like us. He is not like anything. He is not the "presence" in the absence-presence equation. Also, Aquinas explicitly says that he relates to the potential just as much as he does to the actual

    First, he must be like us, because if he has caused us, then he has given something of himself to us. That something given must be the same in him as it is in us, or else nothing has been given at all. And the principle of proportionate causality postulates that causation is like the giving of a gift, and that that X cannot give to Y what X does not already have. If you want to reject this principle by saying that it fails to account for divine causation, then you are stuck with absolutely nothing left when you say that God “causes” something to happen. And waving analogy does not help, because even analogy presupposes some commonality between analogates. Rejecting any commonality implies destroying analogy, which also implies destroying all meaningful God talk.

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    Second, the potential is actually present in God, but not actually present outside of God until he has actualized it. So, even potentiality is a kind of actuality, but within God, and not outside God in creation. Again, all being is a kind of actuality, including God’s being, because he is the actuality of actuality, as you mentioned before. Finally, this is like the distinction between a primary actuality and a secondary actuality. A primary actuality is the power to do X, and a secondary actuality is actually doing X. So, even potentiality depends upon actuality, because something must actually be possible for it to be possible at all.

    Again, God is neither potential nor actual, neither present nor absent, neither existence (as we know it) nor non-existence. He is above all such distinctions: he is the ground of all such distinctions.

    But then you are stuck with the problem of explaining what it means to be “the ground”. Can X ground Y unless X actually exists? Could a substance ground an accident unless that substance actually existed? Could a table hold a dish unless that table actually existed first? To be a ground or foundation for something else implies actually existing to prop up or support or sustain that something else. I mean, you can say that God’s actuality is distinct from the actuality of creation in the sense that God’s actuality is the actuality of the actuality of creation, and thus his actuality is neither potential nor actual(ity of creation), but it does not follow that it is not its own kind of actuality, which the actuality of creation participates in.

    You simply cannot escape from act when trying to account for Being in Aquinas. That is why he says that actuality is most perfect. As Aquinas says: “For just as matter, as such, is merely potential, an agent, as such, is in the state of actuality. Hence, the first active principle must needs be most actual, and therefore most perfect; for a thing is perfect in proportion to its state of actuality, because we call that perfect which lacks nothing of the mode of its perfection.” (ST 1a 4.1).

    Again, I get the sneaking suspicion that you are trying to build on something that Aquinas doesn’t directly say, but indirectly implies as a hidden dynamic within his work that perhaps he simply lacked the capacity to fully bring out, and yet it is really there, a potency lying in wait to be actualized by someone who notices it. And furthermore, I think that that is great, because I doubt that Aquinas had all the answers, and I further doubt that Aquinas fully understand what he was saying, because the meaning of what we say is more than what we hold in our minds at the time.

    Being is the first conception of the intellect. We may not be able to grasp it--it is simple--, but it remains true of everything that exists. Thus, the analogy of being obtains.

    But that just begs the question. How is being a conception of the intellect? Is it a form? That has been shown to be impossible. So, what is it? How is it present in the intellect? And if we cannot grasp it due to its simplicity, then do we then possess a part of it in our intellect? But then how can you have a part of something that is simple? It does not seem possible at all. And I’ve already shared by problems with the doctrine of analogy above, so I don’t think waving it like a magic wand will save this account, at least insofar as I have understood it.

    First, on differance, I think we can safely say that Derrida is simply ignorant when it comes to negative theology. An Aquinas or a Pseudo-Denys would be incomprehensible to him. Even differance would have to be explained by Aquinas's God, because Aquinas's God is the very possibility of absence, the very possibility of possibility.

    First, I don’t know if Derrida ever read Aquinas, and so I don’t know if he was comprehensible or incomprehensible to him, but Derrida certainly read Pseudo-Dionysius.

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    Second, Derrida’s primary difference with negative theology is that negative theology necessarily postulates a hyper-essentialism, a super-ontology, a higher, most perfect, most active Being, and the reason why our concepts cannot contain this Being is that he is too much to handle. It is the hyper aspect of God that surpasses, overwhelms, and drowns us. And when it is said that we cannot say X of God, it is because our conception of X is too little, too inadequate, too inferior. In other words, after negation of X, you get back an affirmation of a super-X.

    Derrida’s thought takes the opposite direction of that which is so small, so insignificant, that it slips through the cracks and defies detection. It is the excluded and marginalized that are too minor to be taken into consideration. And since he denies that a hyper-ontology is possible, because of the restrictions that differance puts upon us, then the possibility of possibility must be differance. Now, a negative theologian could respond by arguing that it is the hyper-ontological being that is the possibility of possibility, that even differance depends upon it, which is your claim, but then your words about this hyper-being immediately spring a leak, and start to drain of meaning, which is exactly what happens when we talk about differance.

    Second, even though we cannot rationally comprehend being, it does not follow that we cannot know God. We know God through intellectus, immediately and simply. Intellectus is "contemplation": stillness, without discursive movements from one point to another. Through ratio, we can only be apophatic; through intellectus, we can see God in himself. This is why Aquinas tells us that man's highest happiness is in the speculative intellect (intellectus, essentially): http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2003.htm#article5


    But this is the issue. How can you see God in himself without becoming God? To see God is to possess God within oneself, because knowledge is the possession of what is outside oneself, inside oneself. Since God is simple, you cannot possess only a part of him, but rather must possess all of him, and that also means that he actually exists inside you, which is impossible. Furthermore, if we already have an idea of being, and God is Being itself, then we already have God within us, and we think about God any time we think about anything real. Finally, you need to explain what we have inside of us when we think about God. We do not have his essence/form/nature, because his essence/form/nature is his existence, and thus he would have to exist inside of us, which is impossible. So, what exactly is going on here?

    It seems to me that the entire account is a rat’s nest of contradictions and inconsistencies and impossibilities, at least from the standpoint of ratio, which is the discursive reasoning procedure that we have been using here. Now, if you want to say that the conclusions of ratio are not illusory or false, but just inadequate and incomplete, but also want to assert that the unitary experience of God via intellectus is true and real, then how do you account for the fact that ratio leads to contradictions and yet intellectus is supposed to be unified and true? Are there higher truths that are impossible at a lower level? And if contradictions are supposed to be indicative of falsehood, or at least incoherence, then how can they also be connected and indicators of truth?

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    Where the problem arises is in a place that Derrida seems to have forgotten. It is a place that he has sealed off from critique. It is before history itself. It is the condition for the condition of history. What is this mysterious place? Why doesn't Derrida ever talk about it? Because, quite simply, it cannot exist under his system. For him, there is only the text: history itself (differance) and its contents (that which is invaded by differance). There is nothing outside of the text. But differance itself has a condition. This means that there must be something outside of the text--outside of differance itself.

    I was going to write a response to your argument, which was well presented, and certainly cut to the core of the matter very well. But, I will defer a response until after we have sorted through some of the other issues that we have been discussing, particularly around Aquinas, metaphysics and theology, because I think that it serves as a close cousin of what Derrida is trying to do, and by understanding it better, we can understand Derrida better, although there are still important differences and distinctions to keep in mind. So, apologies.

    Play's rules are effaced even as they are written. That's Derrida's way, and it was Nietzsche's way, too. Regardless, I think my point was summarized decently well above.

    Except that they are not completely effaced into nothingness. That is the part that you keep missing.

    When you count infinity, there is always another number. When you describe something infinitely beautiful, it is always more beautiful. If you have an infinite amount of knowledge, then your knowledge has no end.

    Again, the paradox is that God cannot ever have complete knowledge of himself, which means that he cannot have perfect knowledge of himself, which means that he has an imperfection, which is impossible.

    First, because God is neither an absence nor a presence, it is impossible to describe him in the terms you're using above.

    Even Aquinas describes him as being present and being actual, and so I don’t see how you can use him to justify this theological theory of yours.

    God is "infinite", in the sense of being metaphysically simple and therefore without any limitations.

    God’s simplicity has nothing to do with his infinity. Where does Aquinas say that the two are related? But I agree that infinite implies an absence of limitations and restrictions.

    He is not infinite in the same way that an infinite set is infinite, because he, unlike the infinite set, is not limited in any respect.

    Well, he does not contingent necessities associated with him. For example, if he freely chooses to act in a certain way, then he is not free to change his actions afterwards. That is a kind of limitation and restriction. But anyway …

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    But this means that God's knowledge is infinite as well. There is no "end point" to his knowledge, just as there is no "end point" to his esse. This means that there is always more of God's knowledge: there is no way for God's knowledge to end. There is an "ever greater" amount of knowledge, an "ever greater" amount of esse. There is no change because God is above act and potency, and he does not in any way have a limited essence: but this does not prevent God from having no end. There is no totality here.

    When you say “always more”, it is necessarily implied that with every “always more”, there must be an associated “always more” than what? There must be some point that is taken for a comparison and found to have actually been less than was originally thought. What I mean is that if I want to say that there is always one more number no matter what number you pick, then the “always more” is relative to picking a particular number, and then once that identification has been done, then the “always more” kicks in, because, lo and behold, there are more numbers after that number. And even if you do not actually pick a number in this way, the idea is that, in principle, there is the potential to do so. However, it is still essential to the idea of “always more” that there must be, either in principle or in practice, a point that grounds the “always more”, i.e. the “always more than …”. What could this point possibly be when it comes to God? After all, it is not as if he could come to a point of knowledge, and then, to his shock, realize that there is still more to him after all. That is impossible. So, what does “always more” mean? What is it relative to?

    Furthermore, it is necessarily the case that “more” always implies “less”. You cannot say “more” without implying “less”, much like you cannot say “larger” without implying “smaller”. “More” and “less” are relational terms that are necessarily interconnected at all times. So, when you say that God is “always more”, then the question is “what is always less”? However, to say that with every “always more” there is necessarily an “always less” means that, in God, the “always more” also implies the presence of an “always less”, and yet this is impossible, given divine simplicity. He is either one or the other, and cannot have both. But, they necessarily go together, and thus he can be neither.

    Finally, how can God fully know himself without knowing himself entirely? You seem to be implying that his essence and his knowledge are never-ending spirals of expansion that continue to no end, and yet there is no expansion in God, because there is no transition or change. He is what he is, and there is no change or development in him. The very idea of the “always more” implies incompleteness, which is impossible when it comes to God, and contradicts Aquinas’ views that God’s knowledge of himself is akin to a total and full presence of himself to himself in a singular vision, which I have provided quotes from ST to support. Your view would imply that God’s knowledge has a horizon beyond which more of him is hiding, which is impossible.

    This is only the case if your understanding of Aquinas's view of angels is correct. And--no offense--I have serious doubts about that. However, I will defer to those who know more about the subject for now.

    What?! Are you doubting my pristine and incorrigible interpretive skills?!

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    Actually, things outside of the mind all possess forms and essences of some kind or other. And these forms are obtained by the senses by way of sensible species. Google Books gave me a long section from Stump's Aquinas that explains how it works--there's no representationalism here.

    It depends upon what you mean by “representationalism”. As Stump writes: “What is required for cognition is thus some sort of representation. The original “presentation” of the form of the wolf in matter produces the wolf; the re-presentation of that form in the intellect produces cognition of the wolf” (Aquinas, p. 275). However, it does not follow that Aquinas’ account is that what we cognize is the representation itself, but rather what we cognize is the external object via the representation. As she writes earlier in the chapter, “a person cognizes something but does not cognize it solely in virtue of cognizing something else” and that “a cognition is unmediated if there is no significant mechanism external to a cognizer through which he cognizes the object of his cognition” (Ibid., p. 246).

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  173. His argument is with the “-logic” part of onto-theology, and he claims that Aquinas has an inherent tension within his system between (1) the necessity of a science of Being, and (2) the impossibility of a science of Being. Furthermore, he argues that one possible resolution of the tension between (1) and (2) is Eckhartian mysticism. That’s all.

    And I don't agree with him on that point. There is no tension whatsoever. Metaphysics is the study of being qua being: the study of esse commune: the study of the diverse and particular. Metaphysics does not study God, because metaphysics deals in positive content and no positive terms can be applied to God. Now, God is being itself: the source of esse commune. It is the very possibility of metaphysics. Here's an excellent quote on the subject from Hart: "[T]he truth of being is "poetic" before it is "rational" — indeed is rational precisely as a result of its supreme poetic coherence and richness of detail — and cannot be truly known if this order is reversed." The poetic truth of being is that of esse. The rational truth is the result of esse. There is no tension. The fact of the matter is that both are true, but that one is higher.

    If Being itself, or subsistent esse, is taken as fundamental and primary, creating and sustaining the multiplity of beings that participate in esse commune, then if ratio is unable to reach Being itself, then it has failed to reach real reality, and thus can be understood to be illusory, in the sense of presenting something as real2, which is really not real1, to use our earlier terminology.

    All of reality is real, because reality = esse. By definition, everything that exists, exists. God exists; I exist; a bird exists. We do not, however, exist in exactly the same sense. I exist qua human; a bird exists qua bird; and God exists qua existence. God is "he who is", as Aquinas tells us with a quote from Exodus. In simple terms: I am a human ("I am" = esse; "a human" = essence), but God simply is (no distinction between esse and essence).

    So, by studying a bird, I'm not less for using ratio. I mean, ratio and intellectus are both used in nearly every act of knowing.

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  174. His critique is neither onto-theology nor metaphysics of presence. It is that Heidegger’s critique claimed that Aquinas identified a particular quality of a specific region of Being, and generalized it to Being itself. In other words, that he failed to recognize the ontological difference between Being and beings, which is different from onto-theology and the metaphysics of presence. I think you are mistaken about the target of the critique.

    That may be the case. But, from my reading, Heidegger means essentially the same thing when he talks about the metaphysics of presence, Seinsvergessenheit (lack of difference between beings and Being), metaphysics and onto-theology. Am I off the mark, here? You seem to have a firmer grasp of Heidegger than I do.

    If these really are different things, then I admit that I've been confused on this point. However, Aquinas falls to none of these points. I recommend these articles:

    http://percaritatem.com/2007/03/28/part-i-marion-on-aquinas-and-onto-theo-logy/
    http://percaritatem.com/2007/03/31/part-ii-marion-on-aquinas-and-onto-theo-logy/

    I don't entirely agree with Marion's commentary that God "cannot be said to be"--this is unfaithful to the analogy of being--, but the rest is solid.

    And yet, how is this possible? First, our intellect can only grasp forms. It knows by abstracting forms via the active intellect and then holding them via the passive intellect. How can this occur with being? Being has no form. Being is the cause of forms, the actuality of actuality, and thus is beyond forms, and thus beyond intellectual apprehension.

    I think that Aquinas gets around this problem here: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1016.htm

    Being is convertible with truth, and truth exists within the intellect. If something is true or known at all, then it subsequently has being. In this way, being is always already part of knowing--it is knowing itself, to get Derridean for a moment. Being is within things themselves insofar as they are beings: it is not beyond beings, but part of them. This coincides nicely with the idea that you cannot abstract being from beings, since to take away the parts is to take away being itself. In this way, being is immanent in things themselves.

    But being is also transcendent, since the being of esse commune (= the totality of entities) comes from participation in being that is not esse commune, but esse divinum. Remember, though: esse is always esse. (Marion seems to forget this.) The difference between esse commune and esse divinum is that the former is always composite--no esse without an essence--, and therefore limited. In other words, God is the esse of particular beings--he is always already present as their existence--, but he is not a particular being, nor is he limited to the totality of entities. Hence, as Paul said, "in him we live and move and have our being". This is why I call Thomism panentheistic.

    I don't see any contradictions or onto-theology so far.

    And that is because it is impossible for beings to participate in esse subsistens, and so they have to participate in esse commune instead.

    Well, it depends on how you mean that. All beings participate in esse subsistens insofar as they exist, since esse subsistens is the existence of every existent (= the totality of entities). However, if you mean that no ens could be esse subsistens and remain an ens, then you are correct: to be esse subsistens is to lose all composition, and therefore to cease being a being (ens = ens iff it is composed of essence and esse).

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  175. First, here is another instance of tension. How can God, being simple, share anything of himself without sharing all of himself? There are no degrees, and there are no parts or partiality involved with him. He is totally full, and he is utterly simple. In other words, he is all-or-nothing.

    This is something like a fallacy of composition. Because the existence of beings is all-or-nothing, it follows that existence itself is all-or-nothing. But it's not true. A being can be all-or-nothing only because it is composite. That is, because it is composed of esse and essence. If God were to withdraw the esse from an essence, an ens would cease to be, because all that it is or was or could be relies on that union of esse and essence. God, being esse itself, is not so composed, and so does not have non-existence as his opposite. As a result, God is not all-or-nothing: he is neither, since "all" implies totality. He is the possibility of both categories.

    Now, how does this relate to the point about God sharing himself? God's simplicity means that he is absolutely full. He could not even possibly share all of himself, since "all" is not even predicable of him. And, were he to share nothing of himself--which he could have chosen to do--, then esse commune would not exist. What we must conclude is that all beings participate in God's fullness, but, as essence-esse composites, they cannot ever participate in "all" of it.

    Second, here you talk about “contain all” and “infinitely more”. So, are you now saying that an infinite totality is possible? After all, what else is a totality, except the complete containment with nothing left outside?

    I'm speaking analogically. In stricter terms, the goodness of esse commune is always already taken from God's infinite fullness, since goodness = being. But esse commune, being composite, could not ever hold all of God's goodness.

    First, God is always present to us by virtue of the fact that our existence is sustained by his constant presence, and God is always present to himself in a full and complete presence via his infinite knowledge of himself. Again, this looks like the metaphysics of presence to me.

    The metaphysics of presence is a preference for presence over absence: actuality over potentiality. This is why Heidegger famously placed potentiality over actuality, and why Derrida was obsessed with absences. But God relates to actuality and potentiality equally, as Aquinas wrote. He is the possibility of presence and absence. How, then, can this even remotely be called the metaphysics of presence?

    Second, the esse in ens is either esse subsistens or esse commune. It cannot be esse subsistens, because then God would be fully present in ens, which is impossible, because ens is finite and God is infinite, amongst a number of other reasons for its impossibility. So, it must be esse commune. However, you say that esse commune is not simple, and yet the esse in ens must be simple. So, we have a contradiction here.

    Esse commune is an abstraction: it's just our name for the totality of entities. Therefore, the esse of esse commune must really be participation in esse subsistens. The above discussion about the fullness of God and the composition of beings should lay to rest any worries about the apparent contradictions in this proposition.

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  176. First, to say that God is “simple” means that he does not admit of composition. Here’s Aquinas: “For there is neither composition of quantitative parts in God, since He is not a body; nor composition of matter and form; nor does His nature differ from His "suppositum"; nor His essence from His existence; neither is there in Him composition of genus and difference, nor of subject and accident. Therefore, it is clear that God is nowise composite, but is altogether simple.” (ST 1a 3.7). Can you quote Aquinas to support your interpretation, or are you identifying an implicit tendency within his texts that you are trying to make explicit?

    I would use that very quote to support my interpretation. Look at what Aquinas is doing: he's eliminating possibilities. He's describing God utterly apophatically. Because God is not composite, it follows that he is "simple", which is to say that he is not in any way composite. This means that he is not in any way limited, since to be composite is to be limited in some way. As a result, to say that God is "simple" is to say that he is not restrained by anything: he has no composition.

    Second, God is sounding suspiciously like differance on your account.

    This is because the greatest apophatic theologian--Pseudo-Denys--is one of Aquinas's biggest influences. He cites him over 1,700 times. I knew that Derrida stole from apophatic theology, and you suggest that he read Denys, so the result makes sense.

    You seem to be hovering in an area that is simply beyond even the LNC. To say that God is neither simple nor complex is akin to saying not-(p or not-p), which is just the logic equivalent of not-LNC.

    This would be the case if the analogy of being did not hold. However, God does exist: he simply exists in a way that we cannot describe univocally. And, in the way that he exists, he does not "exist and not exist" simultaneously. Likewise, his "simplicity" is merely our inability to predicate of him any composition. In other words, "simple" is an apophatic term: it is not at all cataphatic. And, in the way that God is "simple", he is not both simple and not simple.

    But I think that you are trying to capture something that is simply beyond our language and concepts, and good for you for trying, because we cannot help but make this foolhardy attempt.

    Ha. Well, it's pretty much exactly what Aquinas was trying to put across, so I'm just acting as a translator.

    You are using words that have a determinate meaning, and then immediately draining them of that meaning: “limitations”, “cause”, “being”, and so on, but none of these terms have a determinate meaning. As soon as you think you have a toehold (“I got it!”), you immediately slip and fall back to where you came (“What just happened?”).

    It's similar, but reversed. For Derrida, the meaning of a word is "always already gone". When we try to described differance, for instance, our words are drained of meaning before they are even spoken. On the other hand, when we speak of God apophatically, the meaning of our words is always already outstripped. It is impossible to completely described God, not because he is less than every description, but because he is more. So, rather than slipping back to square one, we advance ever further. Hart does a lot of talking about this in his book.

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  177. Second, God is limited by general principles of logic and reason. He cannot do an impossibility, for example, but not because an impossibility is some thing that blocks or restrains him, but because an impossibility is not a thing at all. It is nothing at all. That being said, he does have some limitations. For example, once he has decided upon a course of affairs, he cannot “change his mind”, as it were. After all, he necessarily chooses the good, and so once he has chosen, then it necessarily must be good, and he cannot possibly choose evil, because evil does not exist.

    I was referring specifically to limitations of nature and composition--but yes, you might call these "limitations" in one sense. Scotus most definitely did, with horrible results.

    Third, I think the following principle is necessarily true: if X is similar to Y, then Y is similar to X.

    And we are similar in that we possess something like his being, something like his goodness, something like his truth and so on. We participate in his being and have certain characteristics of it. But his being is only similar to ours in an analogous way, since we possess variations, quantities, parts of his infinite "attributes" in a finite, composite way, by way of the essence-esse union.

    First, he must be like us, because if he has caused us, then he has given something of himself to us. That something given must be the same in him as it is in us, or else nothing has been given at all. And the principle of proportionate causality postulates that causation is like the giving of a gift, and that that X cannot give to Y what X does not already have.

    And we're in perfect agreement here. What God has given us is esse, which is source of everything that we know. In the language of tradition, and the language that Hart and Marion love so much, we have been "the gift".

    Second, the potential is actually present in God, but not actually present outside of God until he has actualized it. So, even potentiality is a kind of actuality, but within God, and not outside God in creation.

    Remember that God is above actuality and potentiality. Esse is like actuality--it is analogous to it--, but it is not actuality as we know it. Even potential being is being, and so God is related to it qua esse no less than he is to actuality. So, it isn't the case that "potential being" is present to God as "actual being", but that "being" is what God is, and being is what God gives to all actualities and potentialities.

    I mean, you can say that God’s actuality is distinct from the actuality of creation in the sense that God’s actuality is the actuality of the actuality of creation, and thus his actuality is neither potential nor actual(ity of creation), but it does not follow that it is not its own kind of actuality, which the actuality of creation participates in.

    God's "actuality" is esse, which is not actuality per se, but being. It is being that he gives to creation: not actuality. This is why post-modernists who focus on potentiality and absence are simply missing the point. God is always already in their absences and potentialities: they have never escaped.

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  178. Again, I get the sneaking suspicion that you are trying to build on something that Aquinas doesn’t directly say, but indirectly implies as a hidden dynamic within his work that perhaps he simply lacked the capacity to fully bring out, and yet it is really there, a potency lying in wait to be actualized by someone who notices it. And furthermore, I think that that is great, because I doubt that Aquinas had all the answers, and I further doubt that Aquinas fully understand what he was saying, because the meaning of what we say is more than what we hold in our minds at the time.

    I'm building on what Aquinas took from the Church Fathers, most prominently from Denys. I am in no way being unfaithful to Aquinas's work: I'm merely, in the current discussion, emphasizing its Neo-Platonist roots over its Aristotelian roots. It is in his apophatic discussion of esse and essence that he owes his biggest debt to the Church Fathers, even though he took the exact wording from Avicenna.

    By the way, he did not discuss his understanding of being as much in the Summa Theologica, for some reason. It's mainly in the contra Gentiles and his other works. And, many times, he will use an analogy (like calling God "pure act" or "primum ens") without going through the long explanation of what, exactly, he means. This is likely because he already elaborated on those points in earlier texts.

    But that just begs the question. How is being a conception of the intellect? Is it a form? That has been shown to be impossible. So, what is it? How is it present in the intellect?

    This should be settled, now. Truth and being are convertible. All knowledge is being.

    Now, a negative theologian could respond by arguing that it is the hyper-ontological being that is the possibility of possibility, that even differance depends upon it, which is your claim, but then your words about this hyper-being immediately spring a leak, and start to drain of meaning, which is exactly what happens when we talk about differance.

    The problem is that Derrida was attacking strawmen, just like Heidegger: the apophatic greats of Christian tradition did not think of God as a "being", nor did they inscribe him in an onto-theological system. As Hart convincingly shows, Aquinas was hardly original in his talk about esse, or about God's indeterminacy, or about God's relationship with our being. These were threads that had existed for around 1,000 years--probably more.

    But this is the issue. How can you see God in himself without becoming God? To see God is to possess God within oneself, because knowledge is the possession of what is outside oneself, inside oneself.

    I'm very impressed that you came to this conclusion without knowing about the Christian tradition of divinization. You are very right: it is impossible to possess knowledge of God without, in some sense, becoming God. But this is exactly what the Church Fathers affirmed, and what the Orthodox--and, to a lesser extent, the Catholics--affirm to this day. Although we always remain essence-esse composites, and therefore remain other than God himself, our knowledge of God divinizes us. St. Athanasius: "He became man that men might be made gods."

    Since God is simple, you cannot possess only a part of him, but rather must possess all of him, and that also means that he actually exists inside you, which is impossible.

    I already explained why God cannot be "all-or-nothing", but it's worth adding that we do see "all" of him, insofar as we have an unending, ever greater comprehension of his infinite being.

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  179. Furthermore, if we already have an idea of being, and God is Being itself, then we already have God within us, and we think about God any time we think about anything real.

    We cannot talk about ipsum esse subsistens except in totally apophatic terms, and neither can we know it except in totally apophatic terms. Only those with first-hand experience (Orthodox call it "seeing the Uncreated Energies") can understand God in positive terms. Our grasp of the being of beings is a grasp of diversity, because any being is an essence-esse compound. We cannot know its esse apart from its particular essence, even though the distinction between the two is real. Hence, we cannot know God just by knowing creatures, even though we can infer from creatures to the existence of God. This is totally in line with Aquinas's own beliefs.

    Now, if you want to say that the conclusions of ratio are not illusory or false, but just inadequate and incomplete, but also want to assert that the unitary experience of God via intellectus is true and real, then how do you account for the fact that ratio leads to contradictions and yet intellectus is supposed to be unified and true? Are there higher truths that are impossible at a lower level? And if contradictions are supposed to be indicative of falsehood, or at least incoherence, then how can they also be connected and indicators of truth?

    Nope.

    Going to have to finish this post later.

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  180. Gotta take a rain check on those last few responses until tomorrow--maybe the next day. Sorry.

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    And I don't agree with him on that point. There is no tension whatsoever. Metaphysics is the study of being qua being: the study of esse commune: the study of the diverse and particular. Metaphysics does not study God, because metaphysics deals in positive content and no positive terms can be applied to God. Now, God is being itself: the source of esse commune. It is the very possibility of metaphysics.

    But see what you just did? Where did you get the content for the words “God is being itself: the source of esse commune”? It did not come from metaphysics, because you rightly said that it only deals with esse commune. So, where does it come from? Revelation?

    Here's an excellent quote on the subject from Hart: "[T]he truth of being is "poetic" before it is "rational" — indeed is rational precisely as a result of its supreme poetic coherence and richness of detail — and cannot be truly known if this order is reversed." The poetic truth of being is that of esse. The rational truth is the result of esse. There is no tension. The fact of the matter is that both are true, but that one is higher.

    First, we are talking about Aquinas and his system. Does Hart claim to be a true and rightful representative of Aquinas? Are we discussing Hart’s theology or Aquinas’ theology? Or are they the same? Already, there have been some areas of tension.

    Second, what does it mean to say that “the truth of being is ‘poetic’”? What does “poetic” mean here?

    All of reality is real, because reality = esse. By definition, everything that exists, exists. God exists; I exist; a bird exists. We do not, however, exist in exactly the same sense. I exist qua human; a bird exists qua bird; and God exists qua existence. God is "he who is", as Aquinas tells us with a quote from Exodus. In simple terms: I am a human ("I am" = esse; "a human" = essence), but God simply is (no distinction between esse and essence).

    But Aquinas also states that the most perfect kind of Being is that of Being itself, and thus any human inquiry that fails to comprehend Being itself has failed to comprehend Being in its most perfect form. It would be like focusing all one’s energy and concentration on striving to understand the behavior of puppets, but never gazing upwards to see the strings attached to the puppet master. In such a scenario, could you possible say that one really understands what is going on? Similarly, missing Being itself is missing probably the most important and fundamental part of what you are studying, especially if you are purporting to study reality itself.

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    So, by studying a bird, I'm not less for using ratio. I mean, ratio and intellectus are both used in nearly every act of knowing.

    True, but I am talking about the act of knowing God. Ratio fundamentally cannot comprehend God. And when you claim to be studying reality itself, missing God is probably a pretty big deal. It would be like studying World War II, and failing to notice Hitler. You couldn’t go around saying you understand World War II at all without factoring Hitler somewhere.

    That may be the case. But, from my reading, Heidegger means essentially the same thing when he talks about the metaphysics of presence, Seinsvergessenheit (lack of difference between beings and Being), metaphysics and onto-theology. Am I off the mark, here? You seem to have a firmer grasp of Heidegger than I do.

    I read them as different, but related. After all, onto-theology and the metaphysics of presence are both examples of failing to be aware of ontological difference, according to Heidegger, and taking the properties of a particular region of being, and generalizing those particular properties to Being itself, rather than just letting Being show itself on its own terms. It is like putting Being in a straightjacket and forcing it into a box that we find comprehensible as a means of controlling it to our advantage. It is a kind of violence done to Being rather than letting it be itself.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that you, I and Caputo agree that Aquinas is not an onto-theologian.

    Being is convertible with truth, and truth exists within the intellect. If something is true or known at all, then it subsequently has being. In this way, being is always already part of knowing--it is knowing itself, to get Derridean for a moment. Being is within things themselves insofar as they are beings: it is not beyond beings, but part of them. This coincides nicely with the idea that you cannot abstract being from beings, since to take away the parts is to take away being itself. In this way, being is immanent in things themselves.

    I am not talking about being, but about Being itself, esse subsistens. I want to know how the idea of esse subsistens can exist in the intellect without God himself existing in the intellect. Esse subsistens is not in beings, esse commune is. We can maybe have some idea of esse commune, but I have argued that it is impossible for us to have an idea of esse subsistens, according to Thomist principles.

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    But being is also transcendent, since the being of esse commune (= the totality of entities) comes from participation in being that is not esse commune, but esse divinum. Remember, though: esse is always esse. (Marion seems to forget this.) The difference between esse commune and esse divinum is that the former is always composite--no esse without an essence--, and therefore limited. In other words, God is the esse of particular beings--he is always already present as their existence--, but he is not a particular being, nor is he limited to the totality of entities. Hence, as Paul said, "in him we live and move and have our being". This is why I call Thomism panentheistic.

    But this just ignores the problem that I mentioned. Esse is not always esse. Esse subsistens = essence of esse subsistens, and thus where the essence/nature/form of esse subsistens is, esse subsistens is. Since there is no separation of essence/nature/form of esse subsistens from esse subsistens, then we cannot possess the essence/nature/form of esse subsistens in our intellects without esse subsistens actually existing in our intellects, which is impossible. Furthermore, if esse is always esse, then that obliterates the difference between esse subsistens and esse commune. After all, esse subsistens is simple, and thus to say that esse commune has esse, then it must have the esse of esse subsistens, and yet how can something simple and without composition share a part of itself? It cannot, and thus it must share the totality of itself, and thus we are stuck with the problem that esse commune becomes esse subsistens, because esse subsistens is fully present in esse commune, and that means that there is no longer any distinction between the two. There is no esse subsistens and esse commune. There is only esse, which is absurd.

    This is something like a fallacy of composition. Because the existence of beings is all-or-nothing, it follows that existence itself is all-or-nothing. But it's not true. A being can be all-or-nothing only because it is composite. That is, because it is composed of esse and essence. If God were to withdraw the esse from an essence, an ens would cease to be, because all that it is or was or could be relies on that union of esse and essence. God, being esse itself, is not so composed, and so does not have non-existence as his opposite. As a result, God is not all-or-nothing: he is neither, since "all" implies totality. He is the possibility of both categories.

    It’s nothing like the fallacy of composition, but I’ll skip to your next point.

    Now, how does this relate to the point about God sharing himself? God's simplicity means that he is absolutely full. He could not even possibly share all of himself, since "all" is not even predicable of him. And, were he to share nothing of himself--which he could have chosen to do--, then esse commune would not exist. What we must conclude is that all beings participate in God's fullness, but, as essence-esse composites, they cannot ever participate in "all" of it.

    First, how can God be “absolutely full” and not be “all”, because “’all’ implies totality”. Again, you are using words that mean the same thing, but are affirming their content in one place, but rejecting their content in another. Tell me how “fullness” does not have anything to do with “all” or “totality”.

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    Second, this does not answer my critique, but just regurgitates the initial position. Here is Wippel: “In fact, as he has implied, if one were to understand participation as meaning that the divine essence itself is communicated to creatures, this would involve a kind of pantheism. What Thomas does admit is that a likeness of the divine essence is communicated to creatures and multiplied in them … God is participated in by creatures in such a fashion that he still remains unparticipated with respect to his own substance (or essence). In other words, God does not communicate his own substance or essence to creatures” (The Metaphysical Thought of Thomas Aquinas, p. 120). The account hinges of the idea of “likeness”. God communicates a “likeness of the divine essence” to creatures, which is what causes their participation in esse. Furthermore, this idea of “likeness” depends upon the doctrine of analogy (Ibid., p. 574).

    So, the question is how God who is characterized by divine simplicity can share a “likeness” of himself with created beings without sharing the entirety, or fullness, or totality of himself. My critique is that this is impossible. Because God is simple, he is not composed of composition or parts, and that means that he cannot share only a part of himself, because there are no parts. If he is shared at all, then he necessarily is shared in totality, in entirety, in fullness. If you have a “part” of him, a “likeness” of him, then you must have him. Once again, the doctrine of analogy is supposed to save the day, but even analogy presupposes similarity, and similarity presupposes partial identity and partial difference, and thus presupposes parts and composition. Similarity is impossible for a being that is simple. All you have is total identity and total difference as possibilities. The former is pantheism, which Aquinas is strained to reject, and the latter is a complete and utter lack of content to any divine names. Both options destroy Aquinas’ system, and from within.

    The metaphysics of presence is a preference for presence over absence: actuality over potentiality. This is why Heidegger famously placed potentiality over actuality, and why Derrida was obsessed with absences. But God relates to actuality and potentiality equally, as Aquinas wrote. He is the possibility of presence and absence. How, then, can this even remotely be called the metaphysics of presence?

    God is the actuality of both created actuality and created potentiality. Both are sustained by his constant presence and sustaining power. Is it possible for there to be an actuality or a potentiality without God’s presence to create and sustain it? I don’t think so, and thus even though God is necessary for both actuality and potentiality, both are created and sustained by his constant and eternal presence.

    Esse commune is an abstraction: it's just our name for the totality of entities. Therefore, the esse of esse commune must really be participation in esse subsistens. The above discussion about the fullness of God and the composition of beings should lay to rest any worries about the apparent contradictions in this proposition.

    First, I don’t think you quite have this right. Esse commune is the being of the totality of entities (ens). After all, simply adding up all created entities into a totality is not an abstraction. Separating the esse commune from that totality of created entities is the abstraction, and since esse commune cannot exist independently of created entities, then it is an abstraction that only exists in the intellect. In reality, there is only the totality of created entities, as you said.

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    Second, either esse commune is the same as esse subsistens, or it is similar, or it is different. If it is the same, then you have pantheism, as I argued above. If it is similar, then they must share something in common, and if they do, then you have pantheism. If it is different, then it shares nothing in common with esse subsistens, and then how can it participate in esse subsistens at all? So, I don’t think that the contradictions and problems go away quite yet.

    I would use that very quote to support my interpretation. Look at what Aquinas is doing: he's eliminating possibilities. He's describing God utterly apophatically. Because God is not composite, it follows that he is "simple", which is to say that he is not in any way composite. This means that he is not in any way limited, since to be composite is to be limited in some way. As a result, to say that God is "simple" is to say that he is not restrained by anything: he has no composition.

    How is it that having parts implies limitation? Furthermore, how does this quote support your contention that God is neither simple nor composite? It clearly says that he is simple, and if Aquinas wrote elsewhere that God is neither simple nor composite, then could you provide this quote?

    This would be the case if the analogy of being did not hold. However, God does exist: he simply exists in a way that we cannot describe univocally. And, in the way that he exists, he does not "exist and not exist" simultaneously. Likewise, his "simplicity" is merely our inability to predicate of him any composition. In other words, "simple" is an apophatic term: it is not at all cataphatic. And, in the way that God is "simple", he is not both simple and not simple.

    First, I have already put forth a problem with the analogy of being.

    Second, that would imply that “immaterial” is also an apophatic term. Does that mean that our intellect is also beyond any univocal predication? That we cannot describe precisely the operations of the intellect?

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  186. Rank:

    It's similar, but reversed. For Derrida, the meaning of a word is "always already gone". When we try to described differance, for instance, our words are drained of meaning before they are even spoken. On the other hand, when we speak of God apophatically, the meaning of our words is always already outstripped. It is impossible to completely described God, not because he is less than every description, but because he is more. So, rather than slipping back to square one, we advance ever further. Hart does a lot of talking about this in his book.

    Right. What they share in common is that when we use a word W to describe a reality R, the meaning M of W does not fully capture R in the present, and thus there is always something missing or absent about R from M. Where they differ is that, with regards to differance, R is too little, and thus slips away from M, and with regards to God, R is too much, and thus overflows M.

    I was referring specifically to limitations of nature and composition--but yes, you might call these "limitations" in one sense. Scotus most definitely did, with horrible results.

    Okay. I haven’t read Scotus yet, so I have no comment on his account … yet.

    And we are similar in that we possess something like his being, something like his goodness, something like his truth and so on. We participate in his being and have certain characteristics of it. But his being is only similar to ours in an analogous way, since we possess variations, quantities, parts of his infinite "attributes" in a finite, composite way, by way of the essence-esse union.

    First, this is highly problematic, because we cannot “possess” “parts of his infinite ‘attributes’”. This is because he is simple, and has no parts at all. To possess a “part” of him is to necessarily possess the whole of him, or none of him. So, it is either pantheism or atheism, or maybe like Spinoza, both. ;)

    Second, if you are going to use analogy, then there must be something that we share in common, which grounds the analogy. We may not be able to conceive of or talk about this “something in common”, but it necessarily must be there, or analogy spins off into infinite regress. And the problem is that, given the all-or-nothing nature of divine simplicity, to share “something in common” with God is to have God in oneself, and thus be a part of God, i.e. pantheism.

    Remember that God is above actuality and potentiality. Esse is like actuality--it is analogous to it--, but it is not actuality as we know it. Even potential being is being, and so God is related to it qua esse no less than he is to actuality. So, it isn't the case that "potential being" is present to God as "actual being", but that "being" is what God is, and being is what God gives to all actualities and potentialities.

    Again, I’m just going by what Aquinas said. You claimed earlier that Aquinas had elaborated upon the analogy of actuality elsewhere. Could you provide those quotes?

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    This should be settled, now. Truth and being are convertible. All knowledge is being.

    This does not settle anything. To be knowledge is to be possessed by an intellect. Saying that “knowledge is being” does not help, because everything is being, and I’m looking for what differentiates knowledge from everything else. Aquinas’ account states that one has knowledge when one possesses inside one’s intellect what was outside one’s intellect. How does this apply to our knowledge of Being itself, esse subsistens? How do we possess what is unpossessable? How do we contain what is uncontainable? How do we have part of something that has no parts? Either you say that it is impossible, and all theology crashes to the ground, or you say that, even though it is impossible, it is still necessary, and so we keep going, and pray like mad that we’re not lost.

    I'm very impressed that you came to this conclusion without knowing about the Christian tradition of divinization. You are very right: it is impossible to possess knowledge of God without, in some sense, becoming God. But this is exactly what the Church Fathers affirmed, and what the Orthodox--and, to a lesser extent, the Catholics--affirm to this day. Although we always remain essence-esse composites, and therefore remain other than God himself, our knowledge of God divinizes us. St. Athanasius: "He became man that men might be made gods."

    That’s fine, but until you explain how this is possible, given Thomist principles, it is like a materialist saying that consciousness is material, even though he or she has no idea what that even means or how that is even possible. I’m sure that you would never accept such an account from a materialist, and so why accept it from religious authorities?

    I already explained why God cannot be "all-or-nothing", but it's worth adding that we do see "all" of him, insofar as we have an unending, ever greater comprehension of his infinite being.

    First, you haven’t explained this.

    Second, how can you see “all” of him, if there is always more of him? Would it make sense to you if I said that I had all the money in the world, except for what I didn’t have?

    We cannot talk about ipsum esse subsistens except in totally apophatic terms, and neither can we know it except in totally apophatic terms. Only those with first-hand experience (Orthodox call it "seeing the Uncreated Energies") can understand God in positive terms. Our grasp of the being of beings is a grasp of diversity, because any being is an essence-esse compound. We cannot know its esse apart from its particular essence, even though the distinction between the two is real. Hence, we cannot know God just by knowing creatures, even though we can infer from creatures to the existence of God. This is totally in line with Aquinas's own beliefs.

    That is fine, but that does not change my point at all. The point is that if you are correct and being is already in our intellect, then are you talking about esse subsistens or esse commune. If you are talking about esse subsistens, then pantheism is true. If you are talking about esse commune, then we do not actually have knowledge of Being itself at all, except negatively, as you mentioned above. However, you are still stuck with the contradictions about esse commune participating in esse subsistens, or esse commune sharing a “likeness” with esse subsistens, and the other arguments I made above.

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    Gotta take a rain check on those last few responses until tomorrow--maybe the next day. Sorry.

    No problem. Take care.

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    Sorry, and one more thing.

    You didn’t reply to my comments about your claim that God’s being is not inherently characterized by actuality, according to Aquinas, but rather serves as “the ground” of actuality and potentiality. I offered a number of arguments purporting to show that for anything to serve as a ground or support or foundation for anything else, then the thing acting as the ground must actually exist as a ground. It must be the actuality of actuality, as you once put it. And to actualize actuality, you must both be actual and actualizing. You simply cannot escape the idea that Being itself, or esse subsistens, is inherently and necessarily act. I even provided a direct quote from Aquinas that supports this interpretation.

    Just wondering what your thoughts are about this claim of mine.

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    Just one last thing about Caputo.

    As I have documented, he vociferously denies that Aquinas is an onto-theologian, but he does endorse the idea that Aquinas is a victim of the metaphysics of presence (H&A, pp. 272-74). This I absolutely agree with, and if you read Aquinas’ talk about God, it is suffused with notions of pure presence, pure vision, unitary intuition, which are all the fruit of intellectus, not ratio. Ratio is about multiplicity, and intellectus is about unity, and the ultimate unity is the divine simplicity of God, which is why only intellectus can bring us as close as possible to God as he is. After all, God himself is Intellect as part of his essence, and our intellectus is supposed to be analogous to the divine intellectus, and thus is our closest like to knowing him. And this is all nicely elaborated in his book.

    Anyway, just wanted to point out that Caputo’s criticism is not about onto-theology, but always about the metaphysics of presence, which is supposed to be due to a failure to recognize the ontological difference between Being and beings by virtue of taking a specific region of Being, elevating the properties of that region and then generalizing them to Being itself. A case can be made, and I think Caputo makes it, that Aquinas falls into this category by virtue of his association of Being with act and presence.

    The final part of Caputo’s book, which is where you object the most, is his attempt to free Aquinas’ thought from the metaphysics of presence by virtue of escaping through Eckhartian mysticism. And why is this a possibility? Because Eckhart conceived of Being as determined by both presence and absence. As Caputo writes: “From Meister Eckhart we shall learn that the Being of God is as much absence as it is presence, that it is presence in absence and absence in presence, that intellectus properly understood is not a matter of seeing but of letting-be and of openness to the Mystery” (Ibid., p. 274).

    As much as you claim that Caputo simply does not understand Aquinas at all, I think that he understands him quite well. After all, he is absolutely correct that Aquinas does not claim that Being itself is fundamentally characterized as much by absence as by presence, by potentiality as by actuality. For Aquinas, Being itself is pure, simple, and thus a unitary and singular kind of being. There is no invasion of absences, or traces, or abysses, or voids, or anything of the sort. Being itself is pure light, pure vision, pure presence, pure actuality, and so on.

    You could answer Caputo’s critique by arguing (1) that the metaphysics of presence is actually correct, and thus it is no critique to say that Aquinas’ thought is a member of the metaphysics of presence, (2) that Aquinas’ notion of Being itself is beyond all our categories, including presence/absence, actuality/potentiality, and so on, and thus he cannot be properly called any of these things, except analogously, or (3) that Aquinas’ notion of Being itself does involve absences and abysses, and is not pure at all.

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    Personally, I think that (1) and (2) are your strongest bets.

    If you want to argue (1), then you could show that Being itself is characterized by presence, and that there is nothing wrong with that. Furthermore, that Heidegger’s own philosophy of Being is about allowing Being itself to show itself as itself and outside of our attempts to conceptually constrain it, and that this is simply incoherent. That anything that shows up to our awareness necessarily shows up as something, i.e. has characteristics and properties, and to ignore anything that shows up with identifiable and distinguishing properties is to eliminate anything from showing up at all. Finally, even if absences are an important part of our experience of Being itself, then that is a problem with us and not Being itself, which is pure presence.

    If you want to argue (2), then I think you’re in trouble, and I’ve offered a number of arguments above for that position. I do not think that the doctrine of analogy can save God talk, because divine simplicity makes any account of sharing, likeness or participation incoherent or impossible. Furthermore, I do not think it makes sense to talk about something without talking about it, which is what a non-conceptual kind of discourse and experience would ultimately come down to. And that is because as soon as you start to talk about God, you are dragging in concepts and ideas that simply fall apart when used to describe God. It is like trying to hold sand as it slips through your fingers.

    Or, that only those who have mystical experiences could truly know anything at all about God, but that they simply would be unable to talk about him or their experiences, because there is literally nothing in the experience of common people that could connect with a mystical experience. All words simply fail to reach their targets here, and end up signifying nothing. Thus, the only proper response is silence. The fact that there is so much written about God means that this approach is simply impossible to follow, including by Aquinas, who wrote millions of words about something he shouldn’t have written anything about. Furthermore, there is the question of whether these mystical experiences are actually about God at all. There are good reasons to doubt that such experiences are even possible, again by virtue of divine simplicity. To know God is to be God, and yet this is impossible, according to Aquinas. There is always a distinction and difference between God and created beings, and this is included even during mystical union.


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  192. With regard to God's infinity and simplicity (previous round of remarks),

    God's infinity is most definitely the result of his simplicity. I've seen this described as God's "negative infinity", and it was the theory espoused by pretty much everyone until Scotus, who gave us "positive infinity". That, of course, results in univocity and therefore onto-theology. But, no: for the apophatic greats like Aquinas, God was "not any thing"; no restrictions are the result, which means "infinity". Hart says it quite well in his description of Gregory of Nyssa's theology:

    "God is the perfect completeness of what he is; the boundaries of bounty, power, life, wisdom, goodness are set only where their contraries are encountered, but God is without opposition, as he is beyond nonbeing or negation, transcendent of composition or antinomy; it is in this sense of utter fullness, principally, that God is called simple."

    This is a perfect summary of Christian apophatic tradition, of which Aquinas was major player.

    On God's absence or presence (previous round),

    To say that God is "present" or "actual" is not what you seem to think. God is "actual" insofar as he exists, and, as existence itself, he may be called "most actual". Likewise, God is present everywhere and absent nowhere, since for God to be absent from a being is for that being to drop out of existence. But God's "presence" is not part of the absence-presence dynamic. For something to be absent is for it to have the absence of a presence, in Derrida's terms. But absence is dialectically opposed to presence: nothing is opposed to esse. Anything that Derrida calls "absent" must be one of two things, then: a logical being, like a hole; or potential being. If an absence is a logical being, then Derrida is guilty of reifying the abstract: there never was any such thing, except in his head. If he's referring to potentiality, then he has failed to escape God, who relates to potentiality no less than to actuality, as Aquinas writes.

    So, for Heidegger to elevate possibility over actuality is to say nothing at all about esse. It's a forgetfulness of esse, in fact. God relates to possibility much the same as he does to actuality, since both are kinds of being. Clearly, then, esse subsistens is not actual or potential, but is instead the "actuality" of both.

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  193. With regard to God's infinite knowledge (previous round)

    For God to be locked into a "more-less" dialectic is both unacceptable and impossible. Remember: God is not a positive infinite to be understood over-against the finite. He is a negative infinite, wholly unseen and indescribable, yet above any opposition. As a result, it would be impossible to say that he has "less" as his opposite. What is "always more", then? Language that grasps at how God knows without inviting totality. God is not an "infinite presence", since his infinity is merely his lack of any opposition or composition: his lack of "thing-ness". This is why Hart, who is a hardcore traditionalist and a patristic scholar, refers to God's "no-thing-ness". God's knowledge, then, is a knowledge of everything, which is always beyond any grasp of totality or logic. And God's ever-growing spirals of knowledge, to paraphrase your post, do not amount to change. They are a metaphor for something that cannot be known. Aquinas demonstrably endorsed these same ideas, even though he was usually more practical in his phrasing.

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  194. Regarding representationalism,

    To wrap it up: representationalism is very much like Hume's imagism. But Hume's imagism was torn to shreds by Wittgenstein, who showed that representations have no determinate content. All forms of representationalism suffer from this problem. Derrida sought to escape, in some small way, by making representation historical. But it doesn't save him. Aquinas, on the other hand, tells us that our "representations" in fact contain the very forms of the things that they "represent". This, then, cannot be described as representationalism, because the objects of knowledge (read: forms) directly enter into the senses and mind. The exterior object quite literally enters your head.

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  195. Rank:

    "God is the perfect completeness of what he is; the boundaries of bounty, power, life, wisdom, goodness are set only where their contraries are encountered, but God is without opposition, as he is beyond nonbeing or negation, transcendent of composition or antinomy; it is in this sense of utter fullness, principally, that God is called simple."

    This seems inherently contradictory to me. On the one hand, God is the perfect completeness of what he is. On the other hand, boundaries only occur when there are contraries, probably only those contraries that admit of an inside/outside relationship. However, because God is without contraries, because he is simple, he does not admit of any boundary. And so my question remains: how can something without boundaries be considered complete? This quote just exacerbates the problem. After all, “complete” has to mean that there is nothing residual on the outside of the completed totality, and yet that would count as a boundary demarcating an inside and an outside. In Levinas’ terminology, there is only the Same, and no Other at all.

    Perhaps what it means is that there is literally nothing (i.e. non-Being) outside God, but there are two problems with this. First, it still carries the implication that God is the boundary of what exists, and thus there is still a boundary, which is supposed to be impossible. Second, there is something outside of God that is not non-Being, and that would be creation, unless you want to say that creation is inside God, but then you are in pantheism territory.

    To say that God is "present" or "actual" is not what you seem to think. God is "actual" insofar as he exists, and, as existence itself, he may be called "most actual". Likewise, God is present everywhere and absent nowhere, since for God to be absent from a being is for that being to drop out of existence. But God's "presence" is not part of the absence-presence dynamic. For something to be absent is for it to have the absence of a presence, in Derrida's terms. But absence is dialectically opposed to presence: nothing is opposed to esse. Anything that Derrida calls "absent" must be one of two things, then: a logical being, like a hole; or potential being. If an absence is a logical being, then Derrida is guilty of reifying the abstract: there never was any such thing, except in his head. If he's referring to potentiality, then he has failed to escape God, who relates to potentiality no less than to actuality, as Aquinas writes.

    All very true, and well put. That is why I think that the best approach to the metaphysics of presence is just to embrace it as true, just as you have done. Absence only makes sense with respect to presence, and for the same reasons that potentiality only makes sense with respect to actuality. The former gets its grounding in the different forms and formulations of the latter. Furthermore, try to make sense of Being showing up without using the concept of “presence”. It’s just impossible and incoherent. You end up sneaking presence in somewhere.

    My only quibble is with the idea that God’s presence is not part of the “absence-presence dynamic”. If presence is associated with being, then absence is necessarily associated with non-being, and thus all absence-presence dynamics are ultimately about being and non-being. If you are right, and there is no absence-presence dynamic between being and non-being, then there is no absence-presence dynamic between anything, which is absurd, because there clearly are such dynamics, e.g. good versus evil.

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  196. Rank:

    So, for Heidegger to elevate possibility over actuality is to say nothing at all about esse. It's a forgetfulness of esse, in fact. God relates to possibility much the same as he does to actuality, since both are kinds of being. Clearly, then, esse subsistens is not actual or potential, but is instead the "actuality" of both.

    First, God is also a “kind of being”. He is esse subsistens, which is the kind of being that is Being itself.

    Second, it still makes no sense to me to say that esse subsistens is not actuality, but only “actuality”. I don’t know what “actuality” is supposed to be, and how exactly it differs from actuality.

    What is "always more", then? Language that grasps at how God knows without inviting totality. God is not an "infinite presence", since his infinity is merely his lack of any opposition or composition: his lack of "thing-ness". This is why Hart, who is a hardcore traditionalist and a patristic scholar, refers to God's "no-thing-ness". God's knowledge, then, is a knowledge of everything, which is always beyond any grasp of totality or logic. And God's ever-growing spirals of knowledge, to paraphrase your post, do not amount to change. They are a metaphor for something that cannot be known. Aquinas demonstrably endorsed these same ideas, even though he was usually more practical in his phrasing.

    I’m afraid that none of this actually helps me.

    First, there is no sense to “always more” without automatically bringing in “always less” in the form of some kind of demarcation point X between the two as the point of comparison for the relation, i.e. the always more than X such that everything else is always less than X. If such a demarcation point is impossible, then there is no sense to “always more”.

    Second, it makes no sense to say that God knows everything, but not in a totality. A totality is just the full absorption of everything within the totality, such that there is nothing outside of the totality. Since there is literally nothing outside of God’s knowledge, then his knowledge necessarily exists as a totality. I mean, what exactly do you think a totality is? Maybe we are just differing over the definition of “totality”?

    Third, to say that something “ever-growing” does not change is like saying that there is change without potency. It is just jibberish. Your words consume each other into incoherence. It is like Heidegger talking about the clearing where Being manifests itself, but not as a presence. It seems to make sense until you see the deeper semantic structure cannibalize itself like a snake eating its own tail. And if it is a metaphor, it is unhelpful, because the metaphor contradicts itself.

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  197. But see what you just did? Where did you get the content for the words “God is being itself: the source of esse commune”? It did not come from metaphysics, because you rightly said that it only deals with esse commune. So, where does it come from? Revelation?

    Metaphysics is the analysis of esse commune. By studying esse commune, we can come to an apophatic understanding of a "something" that is "not-esse-commune", but on which esse commune must rely. But this "not-esse-commune" is necessarily beyond the scope of metaphysics: we can only discover what it is not. Does it have matter? No. Is it composite? No. And so on. Can we truly know what "being itself" even means? Of course not. We cannot even remotely conceive of an existence without a separate essence. Ipsum esse subsistens is an apophatic, analogous term.

    First, we are talking about Aquinas and his system. Does Hart claim to be a true and rightful representative of Aquinas? Are we discussing Hart’s theology or Aquinas’ theology? Or are they the same? Already, there have been some areas of tension.

    Second, what does it mean to say that “the truth of being is ‘poetic’”? What does “poetic” mean here?


    Hart and Aquinas share the same theology, essentially. Both are top-shelf traditionalists with encyclopedic knowledge of apophaticism. To say that being is poetic is to say that esse is beautiful, good, true and noble before it is rational. Esse is before metaphysics: it is the possibility of metaphysics.

    But Aquinas also states that the most perfect kind of Being is that of Being itself, and thus any human inquiry that fails to comprehend Being itself has failed to comprehend Being in its most perfect form.

    This would be true. But, given that Aquinas is a Christian, did you expect anything else? We must always come to know "Being Itself" if our lives are to be well spent. This does not mean that ratio is false, though; nor does it mean that we must all become mystics.

    Ratio fundamentally cannot comprehend God. And when you claim to be studying reality itself, missing God is probably a pretty big deal.

    Ratio is incredibly good at telling us what God is not. In this way, it might be said to "comprehend" God, at least insofar as it allows us to understand him as "wholly other" than us.

    I am not talking about being, but about Being itself, esse subsistens. I want to know how the idea of esse subsistens can exist in the intellect without God himself existing in the intellect.

    Again, very impressive leap. God himself does enter the intellect when we know him. This happens through created grace, I believe--but I'm kind of new to that particular version of this theory. It's common to all traditional forms of Christianity.

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  198. Furthermore, if esse is always esse, then that obliterates the difference between esse subsistens and esse commune. After all, esse subsistens is simple, and thus to say that esse commune has esse, then it must have the esse of esse subsistens, and yet how can something simple and without composition share a part of itself? It cannot, and thus it must share the totality of itself, and thus we are stuck with the problem that esse commune becomes esse subsistens, because esse subsistens is fully present in esse commune, and that means that there is no longer any distinction between the two.

    There never was a distinction between esse commune's esse and esse divinum's esse. They're the same thing. God shares "part" of himself only in the sense that it is impossible for an essence to fully contain him. But, no: God most definitely is our existence, without question.

    First, how can God be “absolutely full” and not be “all”, because “’all’ implies totality”. Again, you are using words that mean the same thing, but are affirming their content in one place, but rejecting their content in another. Tell me how “fullness” does not have anything to do with “all” or “totality”.

    A totality, by definition, has walls and borders. It's a fortress. God doesn't work that way. As I said above, his simplicity and infinity are the direct result of his own lack of opposites.

    So, the question is how God who is characterized by divine simplicity can share a “likeness” of himself with created beings without sharing the entirety, or fullness, or totality of himself. My critique is that this is impossible. Because God is simple, he is not composed of composition or parts, and that means that he cannot share only a part of himself, because there are no parts. If he is shared at all, then he necessarily is shared in totality, in entirety, in fullness. If you have a “part” of him, a “likeness” of him, then you must have him. Once again, the doctrine of analogy is supposed to save the day, but even analogy presupposes similarity, and similarity presupposes partial identity and partial difference, and thus presupposes parts and composition. Similarity is impossible for a being that is simple. All you have is total identity and total difference as possibilities. The former is pantheism, which Aquinas is strained to reject, and the latter is a complete and utter lack of content to any divine names. Both options destroy Aquinas’ system, and from within.

    You're very close with the first option. But you don't seem to realize, despite my constant statements to this effect, that Thomism is panentheistic. I had assumed that you knew what that was until now, but I guess not. From Wikipedia:

    "Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine exists (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe.

    [...]

    While pantheism asserts that 'All is God', panentheism goes further to claim that God is greater than the universe. In addition, some forms indicate that the universe is contained within God. Much Hindu thought is highly characterized by panentheism and pantheism."

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  199. So, yes. We do have God in the universe. He is the esse of every esse-essence compound. It does not follow, though, that God is wholly immanent, as in pantheism. Aquinas argues very powerfully that God is our existence, but that we are not God's existence. A few important passages from the contra Gentiles:

    http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_10.htm
    http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_11.htm
    http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_12.htm

    A particularly powerful line from the Qu'ran tells that Allah is "closer to man than his jugular vein"--and I would borrow that line to describe the God of Thomism. As the esse of everything, God is closer to us than our own bodies. Yet God is utterly different, totally transcendent and rationally inconceivable. Hence, panentheism: God is both utterly immanent and infinitely transcendent.

    Esse commune is the being of the totality of entities (ens). After all, simply adding up all created entities into a totality is not an abstraction.

    Esse commune is the totality of entities. It is an abstraction because we call it a certain type of existence, when, in fact, all that it is is God's infinite esse combined with essences. This kind of existence--the existence proper to esse commune--is different from God insofar as it cannot ever be "pure existence". To bastardize Heidegger's immortal words, "being is always the being of a being", except in the case of God.

    Second, either esse commune is the same as esse subsistens, or it is similar, or it is different. If it is the same, then you have pantheism, as I argued above. If it is similar, then they must share something in common, and if they do, then you have pantheism.

    It is the same, but yet we don't have pantheism. Why? Because esse commune is composed of esse-essence composites, while esse divinum is not. This means that esse divinum can be the esse of esse commune while maintaining, in Aqunias's words, an "infinite distance" from it. Transcendent and immanent: panentheism.

    How is it that having parts implies limitation? Furthermore, how does this quote support your contention that God is neither simple nor composite? It clearly says that he is simple, and if Aquinas wrote elsewhere that God is neither simple nor composite, then could you provide this quote?

    Again, "simple" is an apophatic term. It only appears to be cataphatic. In essence, it means "God is not composite". What does that mean? Who knows. But, as Aquinas uses it, "simple" is synonymous with "not-composite". When I say that God is "neither simple nor composite", what I mean to say is that he is neither that which we cataphatically call simple nor that which we cataphatically call composite. He is something else that cannot be described in positive terms.

    First, I have already put forth a problem with the analogy of being.

    It only holds if God is not the esse of esse commune--but he is.

    Second, that would imply that “immaterial” is also an apophatic term. Does that mean that our intellect is also beyond any univocal predication? That we cannot describe precisely the operations of the intellect?

    Why would immaterial be an apophatic term? That makes no sense to me. God is neither material nor immaterial (cataphatically), but he causes both to exist.

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