Thursday, November 3, 2011

Reading Rosenberg, Part II

We saw in part I of this series that Alex Rosenberg’s new book The Atheist’s Guide to Reality is less about atheism than it is about scientism, the view that science alone gives us knowledge of reality.  This is so in two respects.  First, Rosenberg’s atheism is just one implication among others of his scientism, and the aim of the book is to spell out what else follows from scientism, rather than to say much in defense of atheism.  Second, that it follows from his scientism is thus the only argument Rosenberg really gives for atheism.  Thus, most of what he has to say ultimately rests on his scientism.  If he has no good arguments for scientism, then he has no good arguments either for atheism or for most of the other, more bizarre, conclusions he defends in the book.

So, does Rosenberg have any good arguments for scientism?  He does not.  In fact, he has only one argument for it, and it is quite awful.
 
What is scientism?

Before we look at the argument, let’s consider how Rosenberg characterizes scientism:

“Scientism”… is the conviction that the methods of science are the only reliable ways to secure knowledge of anything; that science’s description of the world is correct in its fundamentals; and that when “complete,” what science tells us will not be surprisingly different from what it tells us today. (pp. 6-7)

As I’ve noted elsewhere (e.g. here, here, and here), the trouble with the claim that science is the only reliable source of knowledge is that it is either self-defeating or trivial -- self-defeating if we narrowly construe what counts as “science” (since scientism is itself a metaphysical and epistemological theory and not a view that physics, chemistry, or any other particular science has established) and trivial if we construe “science” broadly (since in that case philosophy, and in particular metaphysics and epistemology, count as “sciences” no less than physics, chemistry, and the like do).  Rosenberg certainly avoids the second horn of this dilemma.  For his construal of what counts as “science” is very narrow indeed:

If we’re going to be scientistic, then we have to attain our view of reality from what physics tells us about it.  Actually, we’ll have to do more than that: we’ll have to embrace physics as the whole truth about reality. (p. 20)

To be sure, he does not deny that chemistry, biology, and neuroscience also give us knowledge.  But that is only because he thinks they are reducible to physics: “The physical facts fix all the facts.  [This] means that the physical facts constitute or determine or bring about all the rest of the facts.” (p. 26)

Now some naturalists will demur at this point, preferring a “non-reductive physicalism,” or “emergentism,” or some other such doctrine to Rosenberg’s radical reductionism.  As a number of chemists and philosophers of chemistry have argued in recent years, it is at the very least debatable whether even chemistry is really reducible to physics.  (For a useful overview of the literature, see chapter 5 of J. van Brakel’s book Philosophy of Chemistry.  Also useful is the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on the philosophy of chemistry.)  Reductionism in biology is even more obviously open to challenge.  And of course, whether consciousness and human thought and action can be accounted for in physicalist terms is notoriously controversial even among naturalists themselves -- Fodor, McGinn, Searle, Nagel, Levine, Strawson, and Chalmers are just some of the prominent naturalistic philosophers of mind who have been critical of existing attempts by their fellow naturalists to explain the mind in purely materialistic terms.

Now I sympathize with such arguments, but I don’t think they establish an alternative form of naturalism.  For what they show, I would argue, is that higher-level features of material reality are no less real than the lower-level features, that the lower-level features are not somehow ontologically privileged.  And in that way they show (even if only inchoately, and even if their proponents often do not realize it) that something like an Aristotelian, holistic conception of material substances is correct after all.  Talk of “emergence,” “non-reductive physicalism,” and the like fudges this, because it insinuates that the lower-level features described by physics are still somehow more fundamental than the higher-level ones, even though the higher-level ones are acknowledged to be irreducible.  The latter, it is implied, somehow have to “emerge” from the former.  Such views are bound to sound obscurantist precisely because they amount to an unstable halfway position between reductionistic naturalism of the Rosenberg variety and traditional Aristotelian anti-reductionism.

I would say, then, that one has either to go the whole hog for Rosenberg-style reductionism or chuck out the whole naturalistic framework altogether (along with “emergence” and other such half-measures) and return to a full-blown Aristotelian metaphysics of material substances.  To that extent I think Rosenberg is right to hold that if someone is committed to scientism, then he should hold that “the physical facts fix all the facts.”  (Obviously some will dispute this conditional, but since it constitutes a point of agreement between Rosenberg and me, I won’t pursue it further here.)

If Rosenberg avoids the one horn of the dilemma, though, he thrusts himself headlong onto the other.  For how exactly has scientism been established by physics, chemistry, biology, or even neuroscience (if we allow for the sake of argument that neuroscience is reducible to physics)?  Does scientism make predictions that have been rigorously confirmed?  Is there something like a Michelson-Morley experiment that scientism makes sense of in a way no rival theory does?  To ask such questions is to answer them.  The fact is that neuroscience hasn’t come close even to discovering exactly what it is that goes on in the brain when scientists form hypotheses, construct theories, make predictive inferences, develop experimental tests, write up their results, submit them for peer review, etc.  That is to say, neuroscience hasn’t even explained the practice of science itself in purely neuroscientific categories, much less shown that no other practices can yield genuine knowledge.  Scientism remains what it has always been -- a purely metaphysical speculation and not an empirical theory at all, much less a confirmed empirical theory.

No doubt we will be treated at this point to some hand-waving to the effect that even if neuroscience has not “yet” fully explained scientific practice, neither has it turned up any evidence that there are sources of knowledge other than science.  But whether neuroscience is the only genuine source of knowledge about how we come to have knowledge is itself part of what is at issue in the dispute between scientism and its critics.  Hence, to argue “We have no neuroscientific evidence that there is any genuine source of knowledge other than science, therefore there are no grounds at all for believing that there are any such alternative sources” would simply be to beg the question.

Rosenberg’s Gem

All of this might seem moot if Rosenberg had a really powerful argument in favor of scientism.  But he does not.  David Stove once gave the ironic label “the Gem” to a Berkeleyan argument for idealism he regarded as especially bad.  Rosenberg’s argument for scientism gives Berkeley a run for his money, for it is a real Gem.  He states it several times in the book:

The technological success of physics is by itself enough to convince anyone with anxiety about scientism that if physics isn’t “finished,” it certainly has the broad outlines of reality well understood. (p. 23)

And it’s not just the correctness of the predictions and the reliability of technology that requires us to place our confidence in physics’ description of reality.  Because physics’ predictions are so accurate, the methods that produced the description must be equally reliable.  Otherwise, our technological powers would be a miracle.  We have the best of reasons to believe that the methods of physics -- combining controlled experiment and careful observation with mainly mathematical requirements on the shape theories can take -- are the right ones for acquiring all knowledge.  Carving out some area of “inquiry” or “belief” as exempt from exploration by the methods of physics is special pleading or self-deception.  (p. 24)

The phenomenal accuracy of its prediction, the unimaginable power of its technological application, and the breathtaking extent and detail of its explanations are powerful reasons to believe that physics is the whole truth about reality. (p. 25)

Rosenberg’s argument, then, is essentially this:

1. The predictive power and technological applications of physics are unparalleled by those of any other purported source of knowledge.

2. Therefore what physics reveals to us is all that is real.

How bad is this argument?  About as bad as this one:

1. Metal detectors have had far greater success in finding coins and other metallic objects in more places than any other method has.

2. Therefore what metal detectors reveal to us (coins and other metallic objects) is all that is real.

Metal detectors are keyed to those aspects of the natural world susceptible of detection via electromagnetic means (or whatever).  But however well they perform this task -- indeed, even if they succeeded on every single occasion they were deployed -- it simply wouldn’t follow for a moment that there are no aspects of the natural world other than the ones they are sensitive to.  Similarly, what physics does -- and there is no doubt that it does it brilliantly -- is to capture those aspects of the natural world susceptible of the mathematical modeling that makes precise prediction and technological application possible.  But here too, it simply doesn’t follow for a moment that there are no other aspects of the natural world. 

Those who reject Rosenberg’s scientism, then, are not guilty of “special pleading or self-deception,” Rosenberg’s condescending bluster notwithstanding.  Rather, they are (unlike Rosenberg) simply capable of recognizing a brazen non sequitur when they see it.  Unfortunately, condescending bluster is all Rosenberg ever offers in addition to his favorite non sequitur.  Here’s some more of it:

“Scientism” is the pejorative label given to our positive view by those who really want to have their theistic cake and dine at the table of science’s bounties, too.  Opponents of scientism would never charge their cardiologists or auto mechanics or software engineers with “scientism” when their health, travel plans, or Web surfing are in danger.  But just try subjecting their nonscientific mores and norms, their music or metaphysics, their literary theories or politics to scientific scrutiny.  The immediate response of outraged humane letters is “scientism.” (p. 6)

According to Rosenberg, then, unless you agree that science is the only genuine source of knowledge, you cannot consistently believe that it gives us any genuine knowledge.  This is about as plausible as saying that unless you think metal detectors alone can detect physical objects, then you cannot consistently believe that they detect any physical objects at all.  Perhaps someone who thinks that metal detectors give us exhaustive knowledge of the world could write up a Metallicist’s Guide to Reality and “argue” as follows:

“Metallicism” is the pejorative label given to our positive view by those who really want to have their stone, water, wood, and plastic cakes and dine at the table of metallic bounties, too.  Opponents of metallicism would never charge their metal detector-owning friends with “metallicism” when they need help finding lost car keys or loose change in the sofa.  But just try subjecting their nonmetallic mores and norms, their music or metaphysics, their literary theories or politics to metallurgical scrutiny.  The immediate response of outraged humane letters is “metallicism.”

Of course, “metallicism” is preposterous.  But so is Rosenberg’s scientism.

Those beholden to scientism are bound to protest that the analogy is no good, on the grounds that metal detectors detect only part of reality while physics detects the whole of it.  But such a reply would simply beg the question once again, for whether physics really does describe the whole of reality is precisely what is at issue.

I am being hard on Rosenberg, and he deserves it for putting forward such transparently bad arguments, and with such arrogance.  But it is only fair to note that he is hardly alone in the delusion that his Gem is some kind of knockdown argument for scientism.  One hears this stupid non sequitur over and over and over again when arguing with New Atheist types.  It is implicit every time some Internet Infidel asks triumphantly: “Where are the predictive successes and technological applications of philosophy or theology?”  This is about as impressive as our fictional “metallicist” smugly demanding: “Where are the metal-detecting successes of gardening, cooking, and painting?” -- and then high-fiving his fellow metallicists when we are unable to offer any examples, thinking that he has established that plants, food, works of art, and indeed anything non-metallic are all non-existent.  For why on earth should we believe that only methods capable of detecting metals give us genuine access to reality?  And why on earth should we believe that if something is real, then it must be susceptible of the mathematically precise prediction and technological application characteristic of physics?  I submit that there is no answer to this question that doesn’t beg the question.

As always, earlier generations of skeptics were wiser than the intellectually backward Dawkins generation.  For instance, Bertrand Russell was well aware that, far from giving us an exhaustive picture of reality, physics in fact gives us is very nearly the opposite, and is unintelligible unless there is more to reality than what it reveals to us:

It is not always realised how exceedingly abstract is the information that theoretical physics has to give.  It lays down certain fundamental equations which enable it to deal with the logical structure of events, while leaving it completely unknown what is the intrinsic character of the events that have the structure.  We only know the intrinsic character of events when they happen to us.  Nothing whatever in theoretical physics enables us to say anything about the intrinsic character of events elsewhere.  They may be just like the events that happen to us, or they may be totally different in strictly unimaginable ways.  All that physics gives us is certain equations giving abstract properties of their changes.  But as to what it is that changes, and what it changes from and to—as to this, physics is silent. (My Philosophical Development, p. 13)

Moreover, physics’ tremendous success at prediction and technological application is precisely the result of its deliberate neglect of any aspect of reality that does not fit its mathematically-oriented methods.  Early modern thinkers like Bacon and Descartes sought to reorient science in a practical, this-worldly, technological direction.  Mathematics facilitated this; aspects of the world that couldn’t be mathematically modeled were a distraction.  Hence they were relegated to the status of mere “secondary qualities,” or treated as features that are the proper study of metaphysics rather than physics.  That was less a metaphysical discovery, though, than a methodological stipulation.  If you set out to study only those aspects of reality that might be rigorously predictable and controllable, then you are bound to find that those are the only ones you discover.  But it is preposterous to pretend that you have thereby shown that there are no other aspects of reality, just as it would be preposterous for the “metallicist” to pretend that his exclusive focus on those objects that might be detected electromagnetically shows that there are no non-metals.  (See The Last Superstition for more detailed discussion of this theme.)

What Rosenberg and others beholden to scientism have done, then, is simply to confuse method with metaphysics (an occupational hazard of post-Galilean science and post-Cartesian philosophy, as E. A. Burtt warned in his classic book The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Physical Science).  The fallacious blurring of epistemology and metaphysics is, of course, also a feature of many idealist arguments, which is why Stove thought they merited our scorn.  All the more appropriately, then, might we label Rosenberg’s argument a “Gem.”

Scientism versus teleology

Among the features of the world physics deliberately ignores for its purposes are those that involve final causality.  As Rosenberg writes:

Ever since physics hit its stride with Newton, it has excluded purposes, goals, ends, or designs in nature.  It firmly bans all explanations that are teleological(p. 40)

As the words “exclusion” and “ban” indicate, though, this is, yet again, merely a methodological stipulation.  By itself it tells us nothing at all about whether teleology is real.  Again, if the designer of a metal detector says “For purposes of metal detection, let’s ignore every feature of the objects we’re after except their electromagnetic properties,” then he is naturally going to pay no attention to whether this or that object is a coin, or a key, or a thumbtack, or even whether it is made of iron as opposed to nickel.  But it obviously does not follow that the only real properties of the objects the metal detector finds are their electromagnetic properties, and that we should be eliminativists about coins, keys, thumbtacks, iron, and nickel.  Similarly, since teleological features cannot be modeled mathematically, the early moderns – thinkers who, following Bacon and Descartes, wanted to turn science in a practical, this-worldly direction and thus toward a focus on prediction and control – decided to ignore them.  But (as it cannot be repeated too frequently) it simply doesn’t follow that such features do not exist.

Rosenberg no doubt thinks an appeal to Ockham’s razor justifies such an inference.  He writes: 

Since Newton 350 years ago, [physics] has always succeeded in providing a nonteleological theory to deal with each of the new explanatory and experimental challenges it has faced.  That track record is tremendously strong evidence for concluding that its still-unsolved problems will submit to nonteleological theories. (p. 40)

The implication is that since physics hasn’t ever needed to postulate final causes, we can infer with confidence that it will not need to do so in the future; and if it does not need to do so, the principle of parsimony should lead us to conclude that final causes don’t exist.  

But there are several problems with such an argument.  For one thing, Rosenberg’s main reason for denying the existence of teleology, plans, purposes, designs, intentionality, and the like at the biological level and even at the level of the human mind, is that physics has ruled teleology and cognate notions out of science altogether.  But in that case an appeal to Ockham’s razor of the sort just considered would lead Rosenberg into a “No True Scotsman” fallacy.  He will be saying, in effect: Physics can explain everything that exists without appealing to teleology.  So, by Ockham’s razor, teleology must not be a real feature of the world.  Of course, biological functions, human thought and action, and the like cannot be understood except in teleological terms.  But that just shows that they must not really exist, because teleology doesn’t exist, because physics can explain everything that exists without it!

Another problem is that something like teleology is necessary to explain the facts that physics describes, at least if we regard any of them as embodying genuine causal relations.  That is, in any event, the view of a number of contemporary philosophers of science and metaphysicians – George Molnar, C. B. Martin, John Heil, and other “new essentialist” writers – who have no theological ax to grind, but who regard dispositions as “directed at” their manifestations and thus as exhibiting what Molnar calls a kind of “physical intentionality.”  This is (as historian of philosophy Walter Ott has noted) essentially a return to an Aristotelian-Scholastic understanding of final causality as a precondition of the intelligibility of efficient causality.  Unless we suppose that an efficient cause A inherently “points” beyond itself to its typical effect (or range of effects) B as toward an end or goal, we have no way of making sense of why it is that A reliably does in fact generate B rather than C, D, or no effect at all.

Rosenberg doesn’t see the possibility of such a view because he has only the crudest conception of teleology -- he evidently thinks that a teleological explanation is one that simply postulates that “God designed it that way.”  No one familiar with the Aristotelian and Scholastic traditions would make such a mistake, though someone who supposes that teleology and natural theology stand or fall with Paley-style “design arguments” is likely to.  (As I have noted before, Rosenberg’s knowledge of natural theology seems to derive mostly from whatever was in the anthology his undergrad PHIL 101 teacher was using.)  

Rosenberg also supposes that the second law of thermodynamics is incompatible with the existence of teleology.  For “the second law tells us that the universe is headed to complete disorder” (in particular, heat death) and “no purpose or goal can be secured permanently under such circumstances” (p. 41).  But the existence of teleology doesn’t require that an end or goal be realized permanently.  And insofar as the second law of thermodynamics describes causal regularities -- and in particular a tendency toward disorder -- it would itself be an instance of teleology, not a counterexample to it.

(The subject of teleology is one I have devoted much attention to elsewhere , e.g. in chapter 6 of The Last Superstition, chapter 2 of Aquinas, and in a great many blog posts on the dispute between Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophy and “Intelligent Design” theory.  I won’t repeat myself here -- interested readers are directed to these sources.)

So, Rosenberg has no good arguments for scientism, and thus no good arguments either for atheism or for the other, more bizarre conclusions he derives from scientism.  As we will see in the remaining posts in this series, some of those conclusions are in any event incoherent, and thus constitute a reductio ad absurdum of the premises that lead to them.  

Before turning to these conclusions, though, it will be worthwhile examining Rosenberg’s brief attempt to counter kalam-style arguments for God as the cause of the Big Bang, with some alternative cosmological speculations of his own.  We’ll do so in the next post in this series.

[Addendum: A reader calls attention to this critique of Rosenberg by Timothy Williamson, which dovetails with some of the points made above.  A key line: “Those most confident of being undogmatic and possessing the scientific spirit may thereby become all the less able to detect dogmatism and failures of the scientific spirit in themselves.”]

798 comments:

  1. Jack:

    And one more thing.

    Can you talk about reality without using concepts or logic? If you cannot, then what exactly is your complaint? I mean, I can see that there might be a problem if our concepts and logic did not reflect reality, which would result in extreme skepticism. However, if they did reflect reality, then they are essential tools to understand reality. And if that is the case, then your objection about confusing "the logical" with "the real" is without any teeth.

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  2. dguller

    "If that is what you mean, then how exactly is (1) different from my definition of “identical”, and how exactly is (2) different from my definition of “similar”? And if they ultimately come down to the same concepts, then all my criticisms and arguments remain valid."

    What is your definition of "identical"? I'll repeat Coffey's:

    "Identity is one of those elementary concepts which cannot be defined; but perhaps we may describe it as the logical relation through which the mind asserts the objects of two or more of its thoughts to be really one."

    “[...] real identity: whatever we can predicate affirmatively about a being considered as one, and as a subject of a judgment, we regard as really identical with that being. We cannot predicate a real part of its real whole, or vice versa."


    Don't skip them. Read them. Because when we get to your example of the evening star not being really identical with a planet, and how I've confused the predicate "is" with identity "is", it'll save time.

    When you say "similar" I have talked about "the similarity of really distinct individuals" and "real similarity". Coffey:

    "The similarity of really distinct individuals, which is the conceptual identity of their qualities[...]"

    "It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity--identity under the common concept of some quality (in the wide sense of this term)."

    See also how "similarity", may be inferred from the definition of logical or formal identity:

    "Finally, if we represent two or more realities, "John, James, Thomas," by the same formal concept, "man," the identity is merely logical or formal, not real."

    If you don't see how they differ from your definition, if they're just "definitions that use different words, but they all come down to the same thing", then we should be using Coffey's definitions as I don't accept yours.

    (One clear reason, though, that we should reject your definition of "similar" is that it would include "real inadequate identity" (ie, real identity without formal identity).)

    "I mean, Coffey even came out and said that the core aspect of analogy is that the things being compared are “partly the same and partly different”."

    And again he was talking about the *concept* of being which necessarily has to abstract out the *real* differences that individuate every *real* thing. He also explicitly made the point that: "It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity [...]" You seem determined to skate over the fact that everyone from Aquinas up is careful to draw bright lines around "logical" and "real" in this. If you're right and it really doesn't matter why are they doing so?

    "You are confusing the “is” of predication with the “is” of identity." -- Maybe I used a bad example but I'm confusing nothing. Go back to "St Peter" and "head of the apostles". Real inadequate identity stands apart from the "similar" you'd like to define it as.

    "I notice you didn’t address any of my arguments against this idea that the logical does not reflect reality. If logic is truly separate from reality, then why do we need logic to understand reality?" -- Because it's a huge topic and I've only just started giving serious attention to Maher's Psychology. I think it's enough, for now, to ask you what you think you mean by "reflect" and "logic" and how knowledge is caused in a potential knower.

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  3. dguller

    "But when the terminology is presented, it seems to be fully consistent with all my definitions and concepts, albeit in a different idiom."

    I don't think it's fully consistent at all. But if you do we can press ahead using Coffey's without objection.

    "So, that means that my definitions are correct, and the logical conclusions based upon them are sound, as well. The only objection that has been raised is that the arguments only deal with logical and conceptual issues, and are utterly divorced from reaching reality at all. However, I have shown that this move ends up compromising all human knowledge, mundane and divine, because you end up setting up an unbridgeable gulf between our concepts and the reality that they aspire to describe."

    Your definitions are not correct. For one your definition of "similar" includes real (inadequate) identity which it should not. I did not, and never would, say that the "logical" is wholly divorced from the "real". I said your definitions were divorced from the metaphysics and erred by taking no account of the distinctions. It's my opinion that you persist in this error.

    You seem to deny that there is any difference, or can in principle *be* any difference, between conceptual understanding and the real order. I don't say that the mind doesn't receive the form of the knowable when the knowable actualizes what was potentially a knower to become actually a knower of the (now) known. Neither do I deny that it is one and the same form that actualizes the knowable as a really distinct individual being -- but the knowledge and the real being are actualized in different ways and, even though one and the same form are in the mental object and the real thing, it is in each of them (and, because this isn't muddled enough, also in the mind of God) differently.

    At this point it's very late for me, so I'll wish my American interlocutors "Happy Thanksgiving!" and go catch up with some sleep.

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  4. Jack:

    "Identity is one of those elementary concepts which cannot be defined; but perhaps we may describe it as the logical relation through which the mind asserts the objects of two or more of its thoughts to be really one."

    I have no problem with most of this, actually. My only objection is to the idea that “identity” is only a relation in the mind, and not in reality. I think that if you deny that identity can occur in the real world, then you have undercut similarity, and thus analogy, leaving it all as mental constructions that are disconnected from reality.

    “[...] real identity: whatever we can predicate affirmatively about a being considered as one, and as a subject of a judgment, we regard as really identical with that being. We cannot predicate a real part of its real whole, or vice versa."

    All I can understand about this is that “real identity” just means “a correct judgment about a predicate’s application to a particular subject”. So, to say that a banana is yellow is a real identity, because “yellow” is a correct predication of “banana”. Great. I was always talking about the “is” of identity, not the “is” of predication. This is not relevant at all, and just confuses things.

    "The similarity of really distinct individuals, which is the conceptual identity of their qualities[...]"

    This involves two individuals that are the same with respect to their qualities, but different with respect to their being distinct individuals. Again, partly the same, and partly different. My definition.

    "It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity--identity under the common concept of some quality (in the wide sense of this term)."

    I’ve already commented about this. A “real similarity” is where there X and Y are such that there (1) really are parts of X that are the same as Y, and (2) really are parts of X that are different from Y.

    I understand a “partial real identity” to mean that there is a part of X and a part of Y that is really the same. That corresponds to (1) above. That means that if (1) is impossible, then “real similarity” is impossible. To simply say that the “identity” between the part of X and the part of Y that is the same is just “logical”, and thus not “real”, would compromise the very possibility of a “real similarity” at all!

    For you to demonstrate otherwise, you would have to show how if X requires A to be a real X, then X can still be a real X even if A isn’t real. Good luck with that.

    "Finally, if we represent two or more realities, "John, James, Thomas," by the same formal concept, "man," the identity is merely logical or formal, not real."

    This just corresponds to “similar”. John, James and Thomas are all similar in that they share the common form “man”, but differ in how that form is expressed. And the “identity” only pertains to the shared form “man”, which is necessarily “formal”, but not necessarily unreal. Are you saying that John is not really a man? And if reality is supposed to be coextensive with truth, then it is also untrue that John is a man?

    If you don't see how they differ from your definition, if they're just "definitions that use different words, but they all come down to the same thing", then we should be using Coffey's definitions as I don't accept yours.

    Show me how they differ from my definitions. I have shown that every quote you have cited can be reduced to my definitions. Every single one. You can use Coffey’s definitions if you like, but you must realize that if his definitions are coextensive with mine, then any implications that follow from my definitions also apply to Coffey’s.

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  5. Jack:


    (One clear reason, though, that we should reject your definition of "similar" is that it would include "real inadequate identity" (ie, real identity without formal identity).)

    Actually, it wouldn’t. Two things cannot be identical if they have different forms. By definition, they differ in an essential way, and thus cannot be the same. Sure, they may be “similar”, because they likely share other identical qualities, like color maybe, but they cannot be identical. I mean, it is “inadequate identity”, because it is not identity at all, and only similarity!

    And again he was talking about the *concept* of being which necessarily has to abstract out the *real* differences that individuate every *real* thing. He also explicitly made the point that: "It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity [...]"

    Does the concept of being refer to anything in reality? If it does, then what exactly does it refer to if not that which is identical in all beings? If it doesn’t, then how can it help us understand anything real?

    You seem determined to skate over the fact that everyone from Aquinas up is careful to draw bright lines around "logical" and "real" in this. If you're right and it really doesn't matter why are they doing so?

    You tell me. To me, it leads to incoherence, and the complete undermining of rational theology. And your argument from authority is just not convincing. “Aquinas knows what he’s doing, and he would never make a distinction that wasn’t absolutely true!”

    Real inadequate identity stands apart from the "similar" you'd like to define it as.

    How?

    Because it's a huge topic and I've only just started giving serious attention to Maher's Psychology. I think it's enough, for now, to ask you what you think you mean by "reflect" and "logic" and how knowledge is caused in a potential knower.

    I already told you. Forms in particular beings are identical to forms in the intellect. That is how knowledge is possible. You seem to imply that they are not the same at all.

    I don't think it's fully consistent at all. But if you do we can press ahead using Coffey's without objection.

    Show how it is inconsistent.

    Your definitions are not correct. For one your definition of "similar" includes real (inadequate) identity which it should not.

    Because they are “similar”. They share something in common, and differ in other respects, as well. That is all similarity involves. You keep asserting that this is incorrect without explaining why.

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  6. Jack:


    I did not, and never would, say that the "logical" is wholly divorced from the "real". I said your definitions were divorced from the metaphysics and erred by taking no account of the distinctions. It's my opinion that you persist in this error.

    First, you did. You kept saying that I was confusing “the logical” with “the real”. If that doesn’t imply that they are divorced, I don’t know what to say.

    Second, you implied with numerous quotes that the “logical” is just a judgment made by the mind while abstracting forms from the particular entities in the world. As such, you also implied that this abstracted knowledge was “unreal”, and thus “untrue”, because it is not actually present in the world, but only in our minds.

    Third, you now seem to endorse that what is logical or formal still refers to what is real. Great. My only point was that what is abstracted from individual entities is identical in each entity. So, the form of “man” abstracted from two particular men is identical in both. If you can agree that the abstracted form is not only indicative of truths about reality, and are identical in the particular entities that share it, then we are on the same page.

    You seem to deny that there is any difference, or can in principle *be* any difference, between conceptual understanding and the real order. I don't say that the mind doesn't receive the form of the knowable when the knowable actualizes what was potentially a knower to become actually a knower of the (now) known. Neither do I deny that it is one and the same form that actualizes the knowable as a really distinct individual being -- but the knowledge and the real being are actualized in different ways and, even though one and the same form are in the mental object and the real thing, it is in each of them (and, because this isn't muddled enough, also in the mind of God) differently.

    According to Thomism, the real is the rational, at the very least, because God is rational, and thus reality should be equally rational. That does not imply that we will ever fully understand it, but there is a deep connection between reason and reality, and thus logic and the real. If that is the case, then why you originally objected to my arguments, because they were “logical”, and thus not “real”, were completely bizarre to me, particularly given your Thomist framework.

    The bottom line is that similarity implies parts, even by Coffey’s definition, and that those parts are characterized by either identity or difference. Analogy requires similarity, and thus analogy requires identity of some parts. If that is the case, then when comparing two terms via analogy, then there must be parts of one that are identical to parts of the other. And if that is the case, then when talking about those identical parts, then the univocal relationship applies. And if that is the case, then univocality is at the heart of analogy.

    Good night. Talk to you tomorrow. :)

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  7. dguller

    "Show me how they differ from my definitions. I have shown that every quote you have cited can be reduced to my definitions. Every single one. You can use Coffey’s definitions if you like, but you must realize that if his definitions are coextensive with mine, then any implications that follow from my definitions also apply to Coffey’s."

    Couldn't let this go. You have not shown that every quote I cited can be reduced to your definitions *except* by ignoring the explicit distinctions between "real" and "logical". For example with: "It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity" you simply say, "Well, I understand that the logical really is part of the real so a partial logical identity really is a partial real identity and Coffey just made the distinction for no reason." That is emphatically *not* showing every quote can be reduced to your definition.

    In fact, to the extent that you insist all you've done is reduce the definitions without losing any meaning, it is an exemplar of confounding the "logical" with "real".

    Separating concepts from really distinct individuals doesn't have the consequences for knowledge that you think it does. For example: the form of dog in Zeus, the actual Doberman Pinscher and real star of 70's TV show "Magnum", causes everything "doggy" about him. When your mind apprehends the form of dog your mind is not actually a dog, nor would we say that you know everything that makes a dog like Zeus doggy. And yet it is one and the same form that actualizes, in different ways, the dog and the thought object. How to account for these differences if we can't say one is a really distinct individual informed by the form "dog", and the other dguller's mental conception of one and the same form "dog"?

    ...

    If everywhere you think "partially the same, partially different" you substitute "logically (or formally) the same, really different" we could make progress. If this is all your definition means, you should have no problem with this. You will note that, of your previous conclusions “real similarity” is where there X and Y are such that there (1) really are parts of X that are the same as Y, and (2) really are parts of X that are different from Y, (1) no longer follows. There *formally* (or logically) are parts of X that are the same as Y, I think works.

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  8. dguller

    "Because they are “similar”. They share something in common, and differ in other respects, as well. That is all similarity involves. You keep asserting that this is incorrect without explaining why."

    No, they are not "similar". They are really "identical". "St Peter" really *is* "head of the apostles". He is not "similar" to "head of the apostles" or "like" "head of the apostles". He *really* (in reality; as a really distinct individual) *is* "head of the apostles."

    That relationship should not be captured under "similar".

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  9. dguller

    "To simply say that the “identity” between the part of X and the part of Y that is the same is just “logical”, and thus not “real”, would compromise the very possibility of a “real similarity” at all!

    For you to demonstrate otherwise, you would have to show how if X requires A to be a real X, then X can still be a real X even if A isn’t real. Good luck with that."


    Keep Coffey’s descriptions of identity handy. Even “real identity” which you don’t see adding anything.

    Firstly, it is clear from those descriptions (and not yours) that for X to be a real X is a case of “real identity”. X is X is, in fact, an exemplar of “real adequate identity.” However "inadequate real identity" is still "real identity" (interestingly, you deny this in insisting the relationship should be "similarity" but you do not deny inadequate logical identity *is* logical identity as your definitions depend on it. Another example of extreme realism a la Plato who said that only Forms were truly real)

    Secondly, X does not require A to be a real X (ie, to be really identical with X). Again, you may not like “real identity,” you may not see what it adds - but this does not mean it adds nothing. In this case it adds this understanding: X does not require A to be a real (ie, to be really identical with) X. It is not "A-ness" that makes X a real X but "X-ness" and "realness."

    But let us constrain X and insist it requires A to be a real X. The above shows us that, even in this case, X does not require A to be a real Y.

    In fact X only requires A to be a real A. However, X can be a real X without being a real A. Or X can be a real (ie, really identical with) X and be a real (ie, really identical with) A and a real (ie, really identical with) Y. And X can be a real B and a real Y. Importantly X is really identical with Y, irrespective of its relationship to A, or its relationship to B. In fact X can be a real Y even if X is formally (and really) an A and Y is formally (and really) a B.

    Here’s an example – plug in: “X” is “Zeus”; “Y” is “Jack’s best friend”; “A” is “King of the Olympians”; “B” is “Doberman Pinscher”. This is exactly my point when I say your definition of “similar” is incorrect to subsume “real identity.”

    Zeus is really Jack’s best friend and it doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about the king of the gods or a smart puppy. If Zeus is real and if Jack’s best friend is real the relationship of “real identity” that holds between them does not depend on any formal identity. Thus, they are not merely “really similar” and should not be defined as “similar” by ignoring a distinction that it is suggested authorities have made in error simply because you cannot see the above.

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  10. dguller:


    I wrote: ” (One clear reason, though, that we should reject your definition of "similar" is that it would include "real inadequate identity" (ie, real identity without formal identity).)”

    To which you replied: ”Actually, it wouldn’t. Two things cannot be identical if they have different forms. By definition, they differ in an essential way, and thus cannot be the same. Sure, they may be “similar”, because they likely share other identical qualities, like color maybe, but they cannot be identical. I mean, it is “inadequate identity”, because it is not identity at all, and only similarity!”

    I say again, your definitions are incorrect.

    I would point to the above as a demonstration of how they’re incorrect; that "logical identity" is also "inadequate identity" yet you do not dismiss it as "not identity at all, and only similarity!”, and in fact make this "inadequate identity" the basis of your "similarity"; how it’s absurd that “St Peter” is not really identical with “head of the apostles” and merely “sure, [...] maybe similar” with “head of the apostles;” but you would explain this feature of your definition is working as intended and maintain that Coffey’s definitions actually reduce to this.

    So instead let me paraphrase you to show how (if not for your seeming logical positivism) what you say above would cut both ways:

    “Actually, it wouldn’t. Two things cannot be identical if they have different realities. By definition, they differ in an essential way, and thus cannot be the same. Sure, they may be “similar”, because they likely share other identical forms, like color maybe, but they cannot be identical. I mean, it is “inadequate identity”, because it is not identity at all, and only similarity!”

    I mean if you *define* “identity” to include only “logical identity” and not “real identity” then of course you can ignore “real identity” (the way logical positivists might choose to dismiss, say, final causation), but you’ve only chosen to ignore it. To claim then that you’ve shown in every case that Coffey’s overly fussy definitions then reduce down to yours is... well, wrong.

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  11. dguller

    In my previous post I made a mistake when I said: "(if not for your seeming logical positivism)"

    I meant to say: "(if not for your seeming idealism)" as, to me, it appears you privilege the logical and formal over individuated realities in your analyses.

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  12. Jack:

    "Identity is one of those elementary concepts which cannot be defined; but perhaps we may describe it as the logical relation through which the mind asserts the objects of two or more of its thoughts to be really one."

    I have no problem with most of this, actually. My only objection is to the idea that “identity” is only a relation in the mind, and not in reality. I think that if you deny that identity can occur in the real world, then you have undercut similarity, and thus analogy, leaving it all as mental constructions that are disconnected from reality.

    “[...] real identity: whatever we can predicate affirmatively about a being considered as one, and as a subject of a judgment, we regard as really identical with that being. We cannot predicate a real part of its real whole, or vice versa."

    All I can understand about this is that “real identity” just means “a correct judgment about a predicate’s application to a particular subject”. So, to say that a banana is yellow is a real identity, because “yellow” is a correct predication of “banana”. Great. I was always talking about the “is” of identity, not the “is” of predication. This is not relevant at all, and just confuses things.

    "The similarity of really distinct individuals, which is the conceptual identity of their qualities[...]"

    This involves two individuals that are the same with respect to their qualities, but different with respect to their being distinct individuals. Again, partly the same, and partly different. My definition.

    "It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity--identity under the common concept of some quality (in the wide sense of this term)."

    I’ve already commented about this. A “real similarity” is where there X and Y are such that there (1) really are parts of X that are the same as Y, and (2) really are parts of X that are different from Y.

    I understand a “partial real identity” to mean that there is a part of X and a part of Y that is really the same. That corresponds to (1) above. That means that if (1) is impossible, then “real similarity” is impossible. To simply say that the “identity” between the part of X and the part of Y that is the same is just “logical”, and thus not “real”, would compromise the very possibility of a “real similarity” at all!

    For you to demonstrate otherwise, you would have to show how if X requires A to be a real X, then X can still be a real X even if A isn’t real. Good luck with that.

    "Finally, if we represent two or more realities, "John, James, Thomas," by the same formal concept, "man," the identity is merely logical or formal, not real."

    This just corresponds to “similar”. John, James and Thomas are all similar in that they share the common form “man”, but differ in how that form is expressed. And the “identity” only pertains to the shared form “man”, which is necessarily “formal”, but not necessarily unreal. Are you saying that John is not really a man? And if reality is supposed to be coextensive with truth, then it is also untrue that John is a man?

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  13. Jack:

    Couldn't let this go. You have not shown that every quote I cited can be reduced to your definitions *except* by ignoring the explicit distinctions between "real" and "logical".

    I did not ignore that distinction. I said that in Thomism, it is a difference that makes no difference. Thomists want to say that the only things that are real are individual substances, but they also want to be able to have knowledge about those substances, which necessarily involves abstracted universals and essences. Either these essences are equally real, or they are unreal. If they are real, then there is no problem. If they are unreal, then how exactly are they unreal? Are they unreal in the sense that they are just byproducts of mental operations? And if that is the case, then how exactly is this different from Hume’s system?

    Again, Thomists want to be able to use reason and logic to get to the core of reality, which is fine, but then you cannot come along with a distinction like that as if it made any difference.

    For example with: "It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity" you simply say, "Well, I understand that the logical really is part of the real so a partial logical identity really is a partial real identity and Coffey just made the distinction for no reason." That is emphatically *not* showing every quote can be reduced to your definition.

    That is true. I argued that the idea of real similarity without a partial real identity just makes no sense. Again, explain to me how one can have real similarity, but unreal sameness and unreal differences.

    When your mind apprehends the form of dog your mind is not actually a dog, nor would we say that you know everything that makes a dog like Zeus doggy. And yet it is one and the same form that actualizes, in different ways, the dog and the thought object. How to account for these differences if we can't say one is a really distinct individual informed by the form "dog", and the other dguller's mental conception of one and the same form "dog"?

    All that matters is that it is the same form that is present in the individual dog and in the individual mind. If that is true, then our mental analysis of forms must have some bearing upon how those forms manifest themselves in reality.

    If everywhere you think "partially the same, partially different" you substitute "logically (or formally) the same, really different" we could make progress. If this is all your definition means, you should have no problem with this. You will note that, of your previous conclusions “real similarity” is where there X and Y are such that there (1) really are parts of X that are the same as Y, and (2) really are parts of X that are different from Y, (1) no longer follows. There *formally* (or logically) are parts of X that are the same as Y, I think works.

    What exactly is the relationship between something that is logically the same and really the same? Can logic say that two things are the same, but reality is otherwise? Honestly, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it, too. You want to be able to use logic and reason to understand reality, but also say that logic and reason are disconnected from reality. Either logic and reason are applicable to reality by virtue of sharing a common structure, or there is a gulf between logic and reality. Sometimes you endorse the former, and sometimes you endorse the latter. That seems contradictory to me.

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  14. Jack:

    No, they are not "similar". They are really "identical". "St Peter" really *is* "head of the apostles". He is not "similar" to "head of the apostles" or "like" "head of the apostles". He *really* (in reality; as a really distinct individual) *is* "head of the apostles."

    Of course it would. That is why the first condition that I mentioned for “X is similar to Y” is that “X cannot be identical to Y”. So, in fact, my definition does work, even in this case. I’m still waiting for a single counter-example to any of my definitions that does not ultimately reduce to them.

    Firstly, it is clear from those descriptions (and not yours) that for X to be a real X is a case of “real identity”. X is X is, in fact, an exemplar of “real adequate identity.” However "inadequate real identity" is still "real identity" (interestingly, you deny this in insisting the relationship should be "similarity" but you do not deny inadequate logical identity *is* logical identity as your definitions depend on it. Another example of extreme realism a la Plato who said that only Forms were truly real)

    Explain to me how “inadequate real identity” does not just mean that X and Y share some things in common, but differ in other things. So, “inadequate real identity” is a real identity when specifically referring to the things that X and Y have in common, but it is inadequate, because there are other things that they differ in, which is why it is not “adequate real identity”.

    Honestly, explain how this is wrong without your dubious “logical” versus “real” distinction. Explain to me how one can have logical identity without real identity. Explain to me how if X and Y have the same form F, then it is not true to say that, in reality, X and Y are both F. Remember, in Thomism, real = true = being, which means that if you really mean that a logical identity is not a real identity, then a logical identity is also false.

    Secondly, X does not require A to be a real X (ie, to be really identical with X). Again, you may not like “real identity,” you may not see what it adds - but this does not mean it adds nothing. In this case it adds this understanding: X does not require A to be a real (ie, to be really identical with) X. It is not "A-ness" that makes X a real X but "X-ness" and "realness."

    That makes no sense. So, I cannot say that the morning star is really identical to the evening star by virtue of the fact that they both refer to Venus? And anyway, what I meant by including A is that X has an essence, which consists of different qualities and attributes, one of which is A. For example, “man” is defined as “rational animal”, which consists of “rational” and “animal”. To say that John is a man requires that John is “rational”. That would be an example of A (= “rational”) that makes X (= “John”) what it is. What this comes down to is that if A is an essential part of X’s nature, then X does need A to be X.

    In fact X only requires A to be a real A.

    That would mean that John could be a man without being an animal, for example.

    Zeus is really Jack’s best friend and it doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about the king of the gods or a smart puppy. If Zeus is real and if Jack’s best friend is real the relationship of “real identity” that holds between them does not depend on any formal identity. Thus, they are not merely “really similar” and should not be defined as “similar” by ignoring a distinction that it is suggested authorities have made in error simply because you cannot see the above.

    As I mentioned, I explicitly said that X is similar to Y can only occur if X is not identical to Y.

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  15. Jack:

    I would point to the above as a demonstration of how they’re incorrect; that "logical identity" is also "inadequate identity" yet you do not dismiss it as "not identity at all, and only similarity!”, and in fact make this "inadequate identity" the basis of your "similarity"; how it’s absurd that “St Peter” is not really identical with “head of the apostles” and merely “sure, [...] maybe similar” with “head of the apostles;” but you would explain this feature of your definition is working as intended and maintain that Coffey’s definitions actually reduce to this.

    This might be helpful. Logical identity is a part of similarity, because similarity requires some parts that are logically identical. If I am correct to say that “inadequate identity” is equivocal to “similarity”, then “inadequate identity” presupposes logical identity as part of its definition. Therefore, it would make no sense to say that logical identity is only similarity. The latter presupposes the former.

    And as I mentioned, my definition of “similar” necessarily precludes the terms being identical.

    I mean if you *define* “identity” to include only “logical identity” and not “real identity” then of course you can ignore “real identity” (the way logical positivists might choose to dismiss, say, final causation), but you’ve only chosen to ignore it. To claim then that you’ve shown in every case that Coffey’s overly fussy definitions then reduce down to yours is... well, wrong.

    Two things are identical if they are the same. If they are different in any way, then they cannot be the same. If you dispute this, then feel free to explain how X and Y can be different in some ways, but X is identical to Y in the sense that they are both the same thing.

    And I am not ignoring real identity. I am saying that it is incoherent without logical identity. Two things cannot really and truly be the same if their essences and/or accidents are different. But “essences” and “accidents” are abstractions and thus “logical”. Thus, real identity presupposes logical identity.

    Honestly, explain to me (with examples, if possible) how two things can differ with regards to their abstracted essences and accidents, and still be exactly the same.

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  16. dguller

    I'm going to drip-feed some more examples, but it does seem like we've brought them all up at one time or other in this 600+ post thread.

    I did just want to pick up on how impossible your definitions make any kind of progress though.

    Here ("That is why the first condition that I mentioned for “X is similar to Y” is that “X cannot be identical to Y”"), you tell me "real identity" is not subsumed in "similar" because your definition of "similar" starts by excluding identity.

    There ("Two things are identical if they are the same. If they are different in any way, then they cannot be the same."), your definition of identity includes only things that are the same (by which I assume you mean formally and really identical).

    Somewhere you miss relationships like Dr Feser describes here: "The expressions “the morning star” and “the evening star” refer to the same thing – the planet Venus – but they still differ in sense. Hence, though it would be correct to identify the morning star and the evening star, it would be an error to define “the morning star” as “the evening star.”" (emphasis in original); or that Coffey describes in his example of: "St Peter" and "head of the apostles".

    In neither case do we have formal identity (it is no part of the morning star's "form" to appear in the evening; St Peter is not *only* head of the apostles). And so in neither case do we have real adequate identity, or even your definition of "sameness" (ie, "if they are different *in any way*, then they cannot be the same.").

    We have "real identity" and you can choose to ignore it, if you want; but you can't say you have shown that "real identity" doesn't capture a real relationship that, on the other hand, your definitions obliterate.

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  17. Jack:

    Here ("That is why the first condition that I mentioned for “X is similar to Y” is that “X cannot be identical to Y”"), you tell me "real identity" is not subsumed in "similar" because your definition of "similar" starts by excluding identity.

    Yes, because there is a difference between two things having everything in common, something in common, and nothing in common. The first corresponds to identity, the second to similarity, and the third to difference. So, I excluded identity from similarity, because they are talking about different things, and I intentionally did not want to confuse things by conflating everything in common with something in common.

    In neither case do we have formal identity (it is no part of the morning star's "form" to appear in the evening;

    But it is part of the form of a planetary object in space-time to appear differently from different physical perspectives, no? Remember what we are talking about. We are talking about how a physical object appears in different perspectives, and how it appears in one perspective can be called P1, and how it appears in another perspective can be called P2. And certainly it makes sense to say that how X appears in perspective P1 is similar to how X appears in perspective P2.

    So, the evening star is just Venus’ appearance in the evening, and the morning star is just Venus’ appearance in the daytime. Venus is the same in both perspectives, but it appears differently during the daytime and nighttime. The identity is regarding the referent, i.e. Venus, but the similarity is regarding how Venus appears at different times of the day. It still appears as an astronomical object in the sky that glows, but it differs in that one appears in the daytime and the other in the evening time. So, when we are talking about appearances from particular perspectives, then similarity is involved.

    Thus, my definitions are vindicated, again. The form of Venus includes the properties that a planet in space-time can appear differently from different perspectives, and these appearances can be involved in the similarity relation, because their appearances will be “partly the same, and partly different”, but certainly not identical. However, the actual thing (i.e. Venus) is identical in both scenarios. So, when you are talking about Venus itself, and not its different appearances, then identity is involved, because Venus is Venus, but when you are talking about how Venus appears (i.e. morning star, evening star), then similarity is involved, because there will be parts that are the same (i.e. same referent, same location in the sky, same astronomical pathway, and so on), and others that are different (i.e. in the daytime, in the nighttime).

    Any thoughts?

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  18. Dguller,

    Just want to pop my head back in here to put a new spin on things.

    Univocal terms signify an absolute nature; they are universals. Do universals exist? My position is that they neither have existence nor are they mere objects of thought. Why? If they did exist, either in themselves or as distinct "parts" of an individual, then something which is potential would be actual at the same time, or it could be both singular and non-singular (not just considered abstractly, but being abstractly).

    Now, only individuals exist. Being means that which is, and so it includes the particularity of that which is. Each existent presents itself as an individual thing distinct from all other things, that is, as a unique subject of esse. Each individual thing exists with its own act of existing; this dog's existential act is different from that one's, etc. Yet being is realized in each existent. Thus, being is common to all things, but it is not a universal. Why?

    Being is not an abstract concept. Why? Because being includes all things and in all their diversity, and it can always grow. Nothing is abstracted, in other words.

    Being must in each instance include all that is unique and proper to the singular individual, and so it cannot be an univocal intelligibility. Since, on the other hand, the intelligibility, being, is presented to us by, and verified in, and singular concrete existent, being cannot be equivocal. Therefore it's analogous.

    With this in mind, we can talk about how.

    --Klubertanz, Intro. to Phil. of Being

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  19. Dguller,

    I'll just cut to the chase and talk about how being is analogous between God and creature.

    Given that God is (that He is a real and intrinsic act of existing), and given that He is the First Cause and Pure Act, we can figure out a few things. If an act is subsistent and not received, it is necessarily perfect, unlimited, and unique, and thereby distinguished from all received acts. Hence, God, as a pure act of existing, is the perfection of all existence, infinite and unique and distinct from all the beings which have an act of existing.

    If God, by His nature or essence, is His act of existing, it follows that we can say that His essence is to exist; God is by His very essence. All beings other than God are because they share or participate in a "common" act of existing; they are by participating (namely, by participating in the act of existing). Here then we have a new analogy, which we may well call the "analogy of participation."

    So when we predicate being of God and creature, we do it analogously in the sense that God is the cause of the perfection. But this isn't univocal, because being is not a universal. Each individual has its own unique act of existing. The relation that makes the analogy work is a "one to one" relation: the analogon is identical with one analogate, so that that analogate is the analogon by essence, whereas it is possessed in a limited way by the posterior analogates.

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  20. Josh:

    Welcome back!

    Univocal terms signify an absolute nature; they are universals. Do universals exist? My position is that they neither have existence nor are they mere objects of thought. Why? If they did exist, either in themselves or as distinct "parts" of an individual, then something which is potential would be actual at the same time, or it could be both singular and non-singular (not just considered abstractly, but being abstractly).

    Perhaps the solution would be to grant them a form of being that is distinct from actual being? I mean, remember how Aristotle came up with potentiality as a kind of being that was distinct from both actual being and non-being? Why not just say that universals are real, but their being is different from actual and potential being, being some kind of a combination of both? I mean, the universal is really present in a particular entity, but it may not be fully actualized. But that might mean that the idea that something cannot be both actual and potential may need to be revised, which would result in some significant metaphysical changes in Thomism.

    So when we predicate being of God and creature, we do it analogously in the sense that God is the cause of the perfection. But this isn't univocal, because being is not a universal. Each individual has its own unique act of existing. The relation that makes the analogy work is a "one to one" relation: the analogon is identical with one analogate, so that that analogate is the analogon by essence, whereas it is possessed in a limited way by the posterior analogates.

    First, why does univocality only work with universals? Take the following three sentences:

    (1) Apple is red.
    (2) Apple is pink.
    (3) Apple is delicious.

    In (1), “apple” is the name of an apple, and in (2), “apple” is the name of a little girl, and thus “apple” is equivocal in (1) and (2). In (1) and (3), “apple” is univocal, because it means the same thing in both sentences. So, I don’t agree with the idea that univocality only involves universals and not particulars.

    Second, if there is a “one to one” relation, then there must be something identical being shared in common between the analogon and the analogate. And when we talk about that “something”, we must be using univocal language, because we are using the same word, the same referent, and the same sense (or whatever).

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  21. Dguller,

    Welcome back!

    Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving to all.

    Perhaps the solution would be to grant them a form of being that is distinct from actual being?

    A universal exists potentially in things and actually in the intellect, as far as I remember. But in the thing, they aren't actual as such in themselves, otherwise they would be part of the act of the individual being. Or Platonic Forms or whatever.

    First, why does univocality only work with universals? Take the following three sentences:

    What I said was univocal terms signify absolute natures or universals; this must be true, otherwise they couldn't be predicated of diverse things...

    Also, note your examples. You refer to the subjects, but my notes are directed at the predicate terms, which are "red," "pink," and "delicious" respectively. When we compare two subjects with a common term, and the term is employed univocally, then that term signifies a universal common to each.

    Second, if there is a “one to one” relation, then there must be something identical being shared in common between the analogon and the analogate.

    The esse is common, but being is not a universal abstract concept, therefore it cannot be univocal.

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  22. Josh:

    A universal exists potentially in things and actually in the intellect, as far as I remember. But in the thing, they aren't actual as such in themselves, otherwise they would be part of the act of the individual being. Or Platonic Forms or whatever.

    I don’t see why this would be a problem. I mean, the universal is the map, if you will, that defines an ideal expression of a type of thing. It is the end towards which the thing aspires to actualize in reality. As such, the universal is not only present in order to guide the behavior of the thing in question, but also to serve as the ideal outcome of that behavior. If it wasn’t real, then how can something unreal guide the behavior of beings? So, it must be real, but also potential, because it is not fully actualized, except by Pure Act.

    Also, note your examples. You refer to the subjects, but my notes are directed at the predicate terms, which are "red," "pink," and "delicious" respectively. When we compare two subjects with a common term, and the term is employed univocally, then that term signifies a universal common to each.

    Gotcha.

    The esse is common, but being is not a universal abstract concept, therefore it cannot be univocal.

    Then it cannot be part of an analogy.

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  23. Josh:

    Happy Thanksgiving; welcome back!

    dguller

    Please have a read of this article on various types of realism and what distinguishes them. Of moderate realism (ie, the realism of Aristotle, Aquinas, and yourself), it explains:

    "In contrast, moderate realists affirm that a form (a kind of universal) is something that is common to many things and fundamentally present and inherent in the concrete objects (or substances) of our senses (answer to A and C). Universals on this view exist formally in the intellect and has a foundation in the objects of our experience. Contra Platonic realism, universals only have their reality in the individuals. In other words, a form (being a kind of universal) is a fundamental part of a substance (like prime matter is fundamental part of a substance) but abstracted apart from the a substance it is merely an intellectual abstraction or only exists as an object of the intellect." (emphasis mine)

    More on branches of realism can be found at this link.

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  24. Jack:

    Contra Platonic realism, universals only have their reality in the individuals. In other words, a form (being a kind of universal) is a fundamental part of a substance (like prime matter is fundamental part of a substance) but abstracted apart from the a substance it is merely an intellectual abstraction or only exists as an object of the intellect."

    I can accept that universals exist either in concrete individuals or as abstractions in the intellect. The bottom line is that these universals are supposed to be the same whether actualized in matter into individual beings or in the immaterial intellect as abstracted concepts. There is an isomorphism between universals in particular beings and in the intellect, and it is this isomorphism that allows us to have knowledge about the world at all that doesn’t turn into either extreme realism (i.e. Platonism) or extreme nominalism (i.e. Humeanism). If there wasn’t this one-to-one correspondence between universals in particular beings and in our intellect, then there would be an unbridgeable gulf between our concepts and ideas and the external reality that they are supposed to represent. This is actually one of the things that I really like about Aristotle’s moderate realism. So, there are no universals existing all by themselves in some “third realm”, but rather they must exist either in particular beings or in the intellect.

    I'm not too sure how this actually helps your argument, though. I mean, the form F in a particular being is the same as form F in an intellect, then there is an identity relationship between the two F's. So, it is only by the presence of F in my intellect as an abstract concept that I can know anything about the individual being that instantiates F in the world. That is why I am puzzled by your argument that when I engage in conceptual analysis involving abstracted forms, then the conclusions are necessarily unreal, and thus untrue, and thus do not accurately represent anything in reality at all. It seems that by analyzing forms in our minds, one can reach true understanding about things in the world, and there is no real distinction between “the logical” and “the real”, as you keep insisting.

    And even if there was such a distinction, it would not always be the case that “the logical” never reaches “the real”. So, you would have to demonstrate that my formal analysis is an example where concepts simply remain in an abstract level, and never refer to anything real.

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  25. dguller

    I'm glad you like Aristotle's realism. Actually I don't mean, and have never meant, to put you in tension with it.

    I assumed we were all talking to understand why Aquinas and the Schoolmen say what they do about analogy, and not to punch holes in any particular approach, or scourge any heresies.

    "Contra Platonic realism, universals only have their reality in the individuals"

    This helps to understand why "identity," and "distinction" are described the way they are, and not the way that you describe them.

    "abstracted apart from the a substance it is merely an intellectual abstraction or only exists as an object of the intellect."

    It helps us to understand in what way the "logical identity" that makes the basis of your definitions (and expressed understanding) of analogy is different from "real identity."

    I have never said the logical never approaches the real, or is wholly divorced from really distinct individuals, or any such nonsense. I don't believe that.

    Again, you are the one in dispute with Aquinas, and you have repeatedly asked for help in understanding where your differences lie. You have been arguing that all analogy terminates in univocity, and the keystone of your argument is the assumed reality of formal identity.

    "Contra Platonic realism, universals only have their reality in the individuals;" but

    "abstracted apart from the a substance it is merely an intellectual abstraction or only exists as an object of the intellect."

    I emphasized "only," "merely," and "only" in case you missed them. Even as you say you can accept this new information about forms you deny it: "I mean, the form F in a particular being is the same as form F in an intellect, then there is an identity relationship between the two F's." Well! Even under your own definition of "identity" and "sameness" "[i]f they are different in any way, then they cannot be the same" and an intellectual abstraction is emphatically not the same as an individual reality. You brought up "maps" in your reply to Josh so: think "map" and "territory," and don't confuse the two.

    I have found that a renewed focus on the metaphysics -- that paying attention to the background stuff -- has aided my own understanding and aligned it with Aquinas's view. And I shared this with you, Josh, and Michael as it may do the same for you all.

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  26. Jack:

    It helps us to understand in what way the "logical identity" that makes the basis of your definitions (and expressed understanding) of analogy is different from "real identity."

    Not at all. Real identity presupposes logical identity, because real identity presupposes formal identity. Explain to me how there can be identity without involving concepts or forms.

    I have never said the logical never approaches the real, or is wholly divorced from really distinct individuals, or any such nonsense. I don't believe that.

    Great. So, then why do you object to the fact that when we say that two individuals are identical on the basis of abstracted formal properties that they are not identical in reality? If the logical does approach the real, then when logic implies something, then doesn’t it follow that the implication holds in reality, and not just in our minds? Again, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that logical identity is only in our minds, and not in reality, and then claim that this is “nonsense”.

    Well! Even under your own definition of "identity" and "sameness" "[i]f they are different in any way, then they cannot be the same" and an intellectual abstraction is emphatically not the same as an individual reality.

    You are correct that an individual material substance is not the same as an immaterial intellectual abstraction, but you can say that their forms are identical. You yourself agree that the forms are the same, despite the fact that how the forms are instantiated, whether in a material entity or an immaterial intellect, can be different. So, you can say that a real dog is similar to “dog” in the intellect in that they both have the same form of “dog”, but the form is present in matter in the former, and in an immaterial intellect in the latter.

    So, when you are using relational terms, such as same, similar and different, you have to be specific about what you are relating via these terms. And I’ll note again that my definitions still work.

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  27. Dguller,

    If it wasn’t real, then how can something unreal guide the behavior of beings?

    It's not that they aren't real in a wide sense, it's that they aren't real in the proper sense of the word: to designate the actual things which are now. This also explains why "modes of being" as such, the logical genera and species, aren't real, but purely mental objectivity. There is no real thing that they correspond to "out there" in act.

    Then it cannot be part of an analogy.

    If you agree that Being cannot be an abstract concept, a univocal universal, because it leaves nothing out, then what are our predications made of at the heart? A pure equivocation? This would serve to make knowledge impossible...

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  28. “Not at all. Real identity presupposes logical identity, because real identity presupposes formal identity. Explain to me how there can be identity without involving concepts or forms.”

    Well, for a start, we can see that your definitions do not distinguish between the real and the logical in any way. This may be because you deny any difference as a matter of principle, or because you are confounding the two. At this point I shrug and say, “Whatever. Knowing this has explained to me where your approach differs from that of other moderate realists.”

    As a more specific point, your definitions treat the intellectual abstraction as a real *part* of a really distinct *whole*

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  29. ”Great. So, then why do you object to the fact that when we say that two individuals are identical on the basis of abstracted formal properties that they are not identical in reality?”

    But dguller I do not object to this at all! This I take to be the moderate realist position: Two individuals may be formally identical and not really identical. You’ll have to show me where I object to this as I feel I’ve been insisting on it. What I do object to is the idea (which confounds the formal and the real) that formal identity is real identity. Because two individuals are not “identical in reality” unless they are in reality one and the same.

    I say loosely, “dguller and Josh are the same, because Josh is a man and so is dguller”

    More strictly, I might say, “dguller and Josh are formally the same; one and the same form of “man” is a cause of them both.”

    I’m not obliged to affirm that Josh is really dguller.

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  30. Josh:

    It's not that they aren't real in a wide sense, it's that they aren't real in the proper sense of the word: to designate the actual things which are now. This also explains why "modes of being" as such, the logical genera and species, aren't real, but purely mental objectivity. There is no real thing that they correspond to "out there" in act.

    I agree that they aren’t “any thing”, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t “anything”.

    Here’s my question: What is being abstracted from the particular beings that are real? Either what is abstracted is already there (in a wide sense) in the particular being, and then present in the intellect, or it is not there (in a wide sense) in the particular being, but only in the mind. If we can agree on the former, then we can put this issue to rest.

    If you agree that Being cannot be an abstract concept, a univocal universal, because it leaves nothing out, then what are our predications made of at the heart? A pure equivocation? This would serve to make knowledge impossible...

    I disagree that Being cannot be an abstract concept. After all, it is abstracted from particular beings into conceptual form in order for us to talk about "being" at all. We may not be able to have a clear concept of it, for all the reasons that you mentioned above, but that does not mean that there isn’t a single concept of Being that we using when we discuss things that exist.

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  31. “ If the logical does approach the real, then when logic implies something, then doesn’t it follow that the implication holds in reality, and not just in our minds? Again, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that logical identity is only in our minds, and not in reality, and then claim that this is “nonsense”.”

    Are you talking about “truth”? If so I have no idea why you bring it up. I’m afraid you’ll have to show me an example of me doing this. I just have no idea what you’re getting at.

    I have said, and maintain, that “logical identity” is not “real identity.” I have understood your disagreement with Aquinas is then about whether “logical identity” is a partial real identity. Again I say, no.

    Put it this way – you are saying the subject as logical whole is made up of logical parts; if it ”follows that [this] holds in reality” as you imply in the quote at top, then you are not talking about each subject as a really distinct individual, but each subject as a composite of really distinct individuals. And it would be between the really distinct individuals that any identity relation would hold, not the composite(s). You were cautioned against precisely this error of extreme realism in my post of November 23, 2011 8:04 AM

    I know I’m boring when I insist that we benefit from reading the background, but I think it is true. So here is more Coffey (but I urge you to go further):

    ”it is manifest that being and unity are really identical, that when we think of being we think of what is really undivided in itself, that once we introduce dividedness into the object of our concept we are no longer thinking of being but beings, i.e. of a multitude or plurality each member of which is a being and one. For being, as an object of thought, is either simple or composite. If simple, it is not only undivided but indivisible. If composite, we cannot think of it as a being, capable of existing, so long as we think its parts as separate or divided: only when we think of them as actually united and undivided have we the concept of a being: and eo ipso we have the concept of being as one, as a unity.”

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  32. Jack:

    Well, for a start, we can see that your definitions do not distinguish between the real and the logical in any way. This may be because you deny any difference as a matter of principle, or because you are confounding the two. At this point I shrug and say, “Whatever. Knowing this has explained to me where your approach differs from that of other moderate realists.”

    I think that Josh has helped to clarify this matter. When you say “real”, you are referring to “a particular being that exists”. So, when you say that logic is not real, you are not denying that it corresponds to reality in some way, but that its concepts are not particular existing beings. So, there is an ambiguity in “real” where it primarily refers to individual beings (= real1), but secondarily refers to various properties of those beings that are also real (= real2), but their reality is derivative from the original existing beings.

    The bottom line is the status of logical deductions involving formal concepts. I would say that it is true, and thus representative of reality, to say that if X has form F and Y has form F, then X and Y have the same form F. This identity would be real2, but not real1.

    Can we agree with that?

    As a more specific point, your definitions treat the intellectual abstraction as a real *part* of a really distinct *whole*

    That’s right. The individual being (= real1) is a combination of form (= real2) and matter (= real2), and thus form can be considered a real2 part of the individual being. In other words, there is truly “something” there that corresponds to the form and matter, but that “something” is not “some thing”.

    But dguller I do not object to this at all! This I take to be the moderate realist position: Two individuals may be formally identical and not really identical. You’ll have to show me where I object to this as I feel I’ve been insisting on it. What I do object to is the idea (which confounds the formal and the real) that formal identity is real identity. Because two individuals are not “identical in reality” unless they are in reality one and the same.

    I agree with you that simply because individual X and individual Y share the same F (i.e. are “formally identical”) that it does not follow that they are the same individual (i.e. are “really identical”).

    Perhaps my definition of “formal” is broader than yours. You seem to restrict it solely to Aristotelian forms, independent of whether they are instantiated in matter or not.

    I am referring to a broader range of concepts, which necessarily encompass forms, but also encompass whether those forms are present in a material or immaterial form. So, there is the concept of a dog, which refers to the form of “dog” instantiated in matter, and there is the concept of a concept of a dog, which refers to the form of “dog” instantiated in an immaterial mind. In the former concept, a material cause is included, and in the latter, there is no material cause.

    So, when I am talking about “identity”, I am using this broader notion of concepts beyond just whether forms are identical, but also includes how the forms are instantiated. If not only the forms, but also how they are instantiated is the same, then the two things are identical, according to my definition above. And I would argue that would be coextensive with “real identity”.

    What do you think?

    Are you talking about “truth”? If so I have no idea why you bring it up. I’m afraid you’ll have to show me an example of me doing this. I just have no idea what you’re getting at.

    You said that it was “nonsense” that “the logical never approaches the real, or is wholly divorced from really distinct individuals”. But then you complained when I use logical analysis of concepts as being disconnected from reality. I think that we may have straightened out our differences on this score in my comments earlier in this post about the distinction between real1 and real2.

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  33. Jack:

    Put it this way – you are saying the subject as logical whole is made up of logical parts; if it ”follows that [this] holds in reality” as you imply in the quote at top, then you are not talking about each subject as a really distinct individual, but each subject as a composite of really distinct individuals. And it would be between the really distinct individuals that any identity relation would hold, not the composite(s). You were cautioned against precisely this error of extreme realism in my post of November 23, 2011 8:04 AM

    Again, this is only operating according to the narrow definition of real1, which only applies to individual existing beings. The concepts and formal properties that we abstract from real1 entities are real2. And here is where there is a problem. According to your way of thinking, the only things that are real1 are individual existing beings. Identity is not an individual existing being, unless one makes the mistake of extreme realism, and so we cannot say that identity is real1. On the other hand, “identity” is an abstracted concept that is certainly real2. So, you cannot say that two things are really1 identical, because you would be confusing real2 with real1, and can only say that two real1 things are really2 identical.

    What this implies is that when you complain about me confusing formal identity with real identity, you are actually operating under a confusion, because formal identity is real2 identity, and there is no such thing as real1 identity, because “identity” is never real1, and can only be real2.

    Does that clarify things somewhat?

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  34. Wowzers, long discussion. Props to Jack for sticking it through and making vitally important distinctions. I will offer comments to those last posts of dguller's that were directed towards me. Though I do think that they have already been answered very well by Jack and Josh.

    dguller,

    “That is interesting. So, does that mean that relational terms, such as “identical”, “similar”, “different”, “greater than”, “less than”, and so on, have no descriptions to define what they mean?

    As far as I know, relations are known by us as universals and are therefore predicated off of some concrete being. It does not follow that because of this universals are meaningless, just that they “operate” somewhat differently than substances.

    “How can you compare modes of being, though? That is my question. If modes of being are not substances that have accidents, then we cannot use subject-predicate language to understand them, according to Aristotle and Aquinas. And without this language, then how exactly can we talk about them, including their similarities and differences?”

    Well, let's first ask if it's possible to talk about things that are not substances. Since I can talk about universals, and universals aren't substances properly speaking, then I can talk about something that isn't a substance. Likewise, I can talk about modes of being in the same way. As long as I don't lose my way and forget about how modes of being are related to the whole, I see no problem. The funny thing is, I would probably have to use some kind of analogical predication to even talk about modes of being (especially if the concept being is analogical).

    You can compare them, but it doesn't follow that you can treat them exactly like the predicate and subject of an analogy.

    How? What is the theory behind our ability to talk about them?”

    Because when we use analogy at the primary level that coincides with our proper way of knowing, we are necessarily comparing things in different categories of being. If we want to then go further in abstraction and talk about some of the principles that make it possible to compare things in different categories of being, then we must use a non-primary way of knowing (but still knowledge nonetheless). So it will be that we must use analogical predications to talk about the principles that make predication possible.

    (and just in case you are worried, it's about as contradictory as using reason to discover the laws of reason)

    “Give me a definition of “similarity” that does not involve predication.”

    'X is similar to Y iff X has something in common with Y'. The definition utilizes predication of course, but predication as concept is not a part of this definition as it is much more general in scope.

    (continued)

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  35. (continued)

    “One idea I had early on in this discussion was that when comparing the goodness of God and the goodness of man that there was “something” common between the two that was present in both, as well as the important differences, but that maybe we simply cannot know – due to our limitations – what this “something” is. However, this “something” must be the same in both cases, because otherwise it becomes incomprehensible.”

    And because of the relation between God's creation and God, we know that there is a “something”, for instance, of “goodness” that must be the same, but we do not have a full grasp on it precisely because the mode of being is not limited (as far as unlimited can go, not escaping into contradiction past the laws of logic, of course). Again, first arguments for the existence of Something out there, then language that talks about the essence of this Something (although we cannot fully apprehend).

    “I have provided my definition of “similar”, which necessarily involves parts.”

    One problem is that all “parts” are not of the same kind. In the philosophy of Aristotle and Aquinas, there are much finer distinctions that make a world of difference simply because they correspond to epistemology and the way we come to know things.

    “One thing that I liked about Aristotelianism is that the forms in the intellect are the same as the forms in particular entities.”

    and

    “I already told you. Forms in particular beings are identical to forms in the intellect. That is how knowledge is possible. You seem to imply that they are not the same at all.”

    Well, they are, sort of. The forms in question have different modes of being. It's a position that ignores the pitfalls of universal skepticism (which is obviously false) on the one hand, and idealism on the other (which again, I would say is obviously false, but perhaps less so than the other). The mode of being cannot be ignored.

    dguller to either Jack or Josh (I forget),

    “Remember what we are talking about. We are talking about how a physical object appears in different perspectives, and how it appears in one perspective can be called P1, and how it appears in another perspective can be called P2.”

    Definitely not! This was pointed out to you already. Perspective is not relevant. The mode of being is a “part” of the being in question (though not concrete and therefore cannot be treated as something that has a further referent and mode of being). The relation of the being in question to us (perspective) is not a part of the being. Here you are treating a logical relation as a physical concrete.

    (continued)

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  36. (continued)

    “If “identity”, “similarity” and “difference” are all just logical terms, but not considered real...”

    and

    “First, you did. You kept saying that I was confusing “the logical” with “the real”. If that doesn’t imply that they are divorced, I don’t know what to say.”

    This is equivocation (obviously unintentional). Logical identity is real in the sense that it exists. It, however, exists in a different way (and sometimes not wholly unrelated) from real identity. “Unreal” has no place in this discussion unless understood in a non-equivocal way.

    “So, that means that my definitions are correct, and the logical conclusions based upon them are sound, as well.”

    As Jack and Josh have pointed out, no, not quite.

    I, myself, for the most part, don't have much of a problem with what you are trying to get at. But here's the catch. Since you are trying to show Aquinas' position is wrong, you need to play ball on his court. That means learning his definitions and not demanding that the world conforms to your own. And, from this discussion it is apparent that you are not using Aquinas' (and Aristotle's) terminology properly. I suppose you have another option; you could, in theory, translate Aquinas' position into your own terminology—and you must have attempted to do so in order to make the claims that you do. The problem is, as I have seen countless times in this thread, your terminology is not detailed enough to communicate what Aquinas is getting at.

    Hence the overly broad definition of property, which seems to be leading you to conflate the real and logical orders (for instance, that a relation is a property of an individual in the same way that something is a part of an individual's form), and thus unable to understand what Aquinas is really getting at with his univocal, analogical, and equivocal predication.

    Don't look at this as an attack against your intellectual ability. You seem smart enough. You (and I do as well) just need to delve more deeply into Aristotle's metaphysical system and see many of his conclusions for what they are... inescapable and necessary truths about the world we live in. And the proof that you will do so is already evident in that you were able to pick up on immanent final causality—the stuff we have been talking about here is not all that much different in certainty.

    But let the discussion continue. For my part, you still don't quite get sense and mode of being, as you wrongly associate perspective with it—that's not pertinent.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  37. Michael:

    Before I answer your comments, could you please have a look at my last response to Jack, and let me know if there is anything there that you think Aquinas would disagree with.

    Thanks.

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  38. Jack:

    And one more thing.

    If my distinction between real1 and real2 is valid, then it seems that the only language that describes what is real1 is proper names. In other words, the only real1 words are ones where you point to some existing individual being, and say “This is ‘John’”. All other descriptions utilize real2 abstracted concepts and forms from real1 individual beings, and thus describe what is real2. So, saying “John is a man” utilizes a term that refers to something real1 (i.e. “John”) and another term that refers to something real2 (i.e. “is a man”).

    Again, the implication of this is that you cannot refer to real1 identity, because “identity” is an abstracted concept, and thus can only be real2. Therefore, there can only be real2 identity. So, your objection that my definition of real2 identity is not coextensive with real1 identity is flawed, because there is no such thing as real1 identity at all. After all, the only things that are real1 are individual existing beings. All descriptions other than giving them proper names utilize concepts that are necessarily real2, but not real1.

    Any thoughts?

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  39. dguller,

    “Before I answer your comments, could you please have a look at my last response to Jack, and let me know if there is anything there that you think Aquinas would disagree with.”

    Sure.

    “Again, this is only operating according to the narrow definition of real1, which only applies to individual existing beings. The concepts and formal properties that we abstract from real1 entities are real2. And here is where there is a problem. According to your way of thinking, the only things that are real1 are individual existing beings. Identity is not an individual existing being, unless one makes the mistake of extreme realism, and so we cannot say that identity is real1. On the other hand, “identity” is an abstracted concept that is certainly real2. So, you cannot say that two things are really1 identical, because you would be confusing real2 with real1, and can only say that two real1 things are really2 identical.

    What this implies is that when you complain about me confusing formal identity with real identity, you are actually operating under a confusion, because formal identity is real2 identity, and there is no such thing as real1 identity, because “identity” is never real1, and can only be real2.

    Does that clarify things somewhat?”

    This is a really great post. And it does clarify some things. I was pretty much with you until your last two sentences.

    While you are correct that “identity” is an abstract concept, real1 identity does in fact exist. Why? Because it is still the case that I can apply the concept of identity to two real1 beings. One example is Josh's (or was it Jack's? Doh!) Peter/Apostle example, where the object is identical in both cases. Furthermore, I am identical with myself, or self-identical... which would be a case of real1 identity as well.

    With your real1/real2 analysis in mind, one of the main disagreements you seem to have with Aquinas is that you are using univocal, analogical, and equivocal predication on both real1 and real2 entities without distinction. It has been my contention that such terms do not apply to real2 entities because the real2 entities in question do not have both a sense and referent, while the more fundamental and presupposed real1 entities that ground the comparison do. And therefore it nonsense to use language that requires both sense and referent to be used in situations where there is not both sense and referent.

    Maybe I am incorrect, but I do not see it. At the very least, however, there is something about univocal, analogical, and equivocal predication that deals with the primary unities that we experience and come to know, and such predication deals with these primary unities first and foremost... not first and foremost with the principles that make such predications possible.

    I don't think I could speak for Aquinas, but It seems to me that is in line with how he uses analogical, univocal, and equivocal predication. And that it would also be in line with Aristotelian metaphysics.

    Them me thoughts.

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  40. Michael:

    While you are correct that “identity” is an abstract concept, real1 identity does in fact exist. Why? Because it is still the case that I can apply the concept of identity to two real1 beings. One example is Josh's (or was it Jack's? Doh!) Peter/Apostle example, where the object is identical in both cases. Furthermore, I am identical with myself, or self-identical... which would be a case of real1 identity as well.

    And this is another example of having one’s cake, and eating it, too.

    Recall that the only reason why this distinction between real1 and real2 even came up was that I engaged in conceptual analysis in order to ascertain truths about reality. The reply to my attempt was that my conceptual analysis pertained to real2, but did not necessarily pertain to real1. And the rationale behind this criticism is that in reality1, there are only unique existing individuals, and nothing else. Anything else above these particular beings was supposed to be about reality2, i.e. abstracted concepts from real1 particular beings.

    If you are now saying that there are real1 conceptual truths, then how exactly do you determine which conceptual truths refer to reality1 and which refer to reality2? Take “identity”. You claim that we “can apply the concept of identity to two real1 beings”. My response is to ask you what “identity” refers to. Does “identity” refer to a real1 being? Of course not. That means that it does not refer to reality1 at all, which is nothing but individual existing beings. What does “identity” refer to? It refers to a conceptual relationship between two existing beings, and a conceptual relationship can only be real2, and not real1, unless you believe in extreme realism of a Platonic sort.

    And even if I agree with you that certain concepts can refer to reality1, which (again) is supposed to consist of nothing but individual existing beings, then if “identity” is a term that refers to reality1, then why not “similarity”? In fact, why not any predicate or concept? Why not “different”? And note that if two real1 things can identical, then they can certainly be different, as well, and thus “different” also refers to something real1. And if “different” and “same” are both terms that can refer to reality1, then “similarity”, being nothing but the combination of “same” and “different” should also refer to reality1.

    Again, it seems that a consistent Thomism would say that the only words that refer to reality1 are proper names, and all other terms can only refer to reality2, at best.

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  41. Michael:


    With your real1/real2 analysis in mind, one of the main disagreements you seem to have with Aquinas is that you are using univocal, analogical, and equivocal predication on both real1 and real2 entities without distinction. It has been my contention that such terms do not apply to real2 entities because the real2 entities in question do not have both a sense and referent, while the more fundamental and presupposed real1 entities that ground the comparison do. And therefore it nonsense to use language that requires both sense and referent to be used in situations where there is not both sense and referent.

    But if I am correct, then even if those terms only apply to real1 beings, they can only do so using concepts that can only refer to reality2. In other words, the only way to talk about real1 beings is to use real2 language. So, univocal, analogical and equivocal predication are all necessarily real2 concepts that are trying to compare two real1 beings.

    Perhaps a solution would be to say that neither real1 nor real2 are primary. Instead, they are both essential to any coherent framework to understand the universe. In other words, you simply cannot have one without the other. So, to say that only real1 beings exist is actually untrue, because real2 is just a different kind of reality, but not inferior in any way. Once you have real1 beings, then you automatically have reality2.

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  42. dguller

    I’m not sure that with your real1 / real2 distinction you have grasped what Scholastics are getting at. I’ll try to address your posts in order but will note here (as we’ll no doubt have to return to this at some point) that the correspondence between the logical (conceptual, formal) and the real order is about “truth.” (ie, real or ontological truth as compared with logical truth) When we ascribe “truth” to a “thing” we mean that it is faithful to a mental type or ideal (or form) (eg, Michael is a true man, or Josh is truly a man)

    Now to quoting you; you write: ”Again, this is only operating according to the narrow definition of real1, which only applies to individual existing beings. The concepts and formal properties that we abstract from real1 entities are real2. And here is where there is a problem. According to your way of thinking, the only things that are real1 are individual existing beings. Identity is not an individual existing being, unless one makes the mistake of extreme realism, and so we cannot say that identity is real1. On the other hand, “identity” is an abstracted concept that is certainly real2. So, you cannot say that two things are really1 identical, because you would be confusing real2 with real1, and can only say that two real1 things are really2 identical.”

    The problem is not that “identity” is not, as you put it, an ”individual existing being[]” (though you’re right - it isn’t). The problem for you is the unity of any individual existing being, such as the subject of your comparison “X.” Remember universals (such as form "F") only have their reality in the individual. So the form “F” cannot, in reality, be separated from X and still really be, just as formless prime matter cannot be real; this is what happens with intellectual abstraction. But in reality individual “X” is “X.” Individual “X” is not form “F” and the complement of real X “X’.”

    Even if you could defend this approach to individual existing being then you no longer have one individual but (at least) two individuals. Looking at “identity” or “similar” relations across X and Y we now see (by your scheme) X is (at least) two individuals X’ and F; and Y is (at least) two individuals: Y’ and F; and the identity relation holds for F only.

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  43. dguller

    ”The bottom line is the status of logical deductions involving formal concepts. I would say that it is true, and thus representative of reality, to say that if X has form F and Y has form F, then X and Y have the same form F. This identity would be real2, but not real1.

    Can we agree with that?”


    Basically, yes, we can agree on that. But given that, if X and Y are not one and the same (ie, or if Y is not something "we can predicate affirmatively about [X], and as a subject of a judgment"), the identity you describe is “formal identity” I don’t see why we should call it "real2 identity."

    Of course if X and Y are one and the same this is a case of “real identity" (and adequate identity.)

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  44. “What this implies is that when you complain about me confusing formal identity with real identity, you are actually operating under a confusion, because formal identity is real2 identity, and there is no such thing as real1 identity, because “identity” is never real1, and can only be real2.

    Does that clarify things somewhat?”


    No, this doesn’t clarify things. Again, I’ve not understood why we need real1 and real2 – the Scholastic descriptions are out there and easily referenceable. What do you think the idea of real2 adds?

    ”Again, the implication of this is that you cannot refer to real1 identity, because “identity” is an abstracted concept, and thus can only be real2. Therefore, there can only be real2 identity. So, your objection that my definition of real2 identity is not coextensive with real1 identity is flawed, because there is no such thing as real1 identity at all. After all, the only things that are real1 are individual existing beings. All descriptions other than giving them proper names utilize concepts that are necessarily real2, but not real1.

    Any thoughts?”


    I can’t comment on whether your distinction between real1 and real2 is valid because I’m not sure I understand it. I surely don’t know what it adds. But when you say I "cannot refer to real1 identity, because “identity” is an abstracted concept" you seem to have concluded that I cannot affirm an object to be one and the same as itself in reality. If this is a result of your real1 / real2 distinction then it is clearly wrong. Here’s how the Scholastic realist would describe identity:

    "Identity is one of those elementary concepts which cannot be defined; but perhaps we may describe it as the logical relation through which the mind asserts the objects of two or more of its thoughts to be really one."

    "If the object formally represented by each of the concepts is one and the same--as, e.g. when we compare "A" with "A" or "man" with "rational animal," or, in general, any object with its definition--
    the identity is both real and logical (or conceptual, formal). If the concepts differ in their formal objects while representing one and the same reality--as when we compare "St Peter" with "head of apostles," or "man" with "rational"--the identity is real, but not logical or formal. Finally, if we represent two or more realities, "John, James, Thomas," by the same formal concept, "man," the identity is merely logical or formal, not real. Of these three kinds of identity the first is sometimes called adequate, the second and third inadequate."

    "It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity--identity under the common concept of some quality (in the wide sense of this term)."

    "[...] real identity: whatever we can predicate affirmatively about a being considered as one, and as a subject of a judgment, we regard as really identical with that being. We cannot predicate a real part of its real whole, or vice versa."

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  45. dguller,

    “The reply to my attempt was that my conceptual analysis pertained to real2, but did not necessarily pertain to real1.”

    The word “pertained” is too broad. I would rather say, given your recent post, that your conceptual analysis referred to something real2, and did not refer to something real1 with regards to modes of being. Let's pursue this further with your next comment.

    “What does “identity” refer to? It refers to a conceptual relationship between two existing beings, and a conceptual relationship can only be real2, and not real1, unless you believe in extreme realism of a Platonic sort.”

    Basically you're saying that the word “identity” can refer to its abstract concept. True. But more fundamental, is what the concept is about in the particular predication. And what identity (the concept if you will, before any self-reflection turns it into a higher order abstraction) can refer to in a particular predication are either real1 or real2 beings. You may be confusing identity's essence as a relation (something real2) with its function (that can refer to something real1 or real2).

    And with all this in mind,

    “And note that if two real1 things can identical, then they can certainly be different, as well, and thus “different” also refers to something real1.”

    I agree, particularly if you use it in the binary way of identical vs. non-identical, the way it is being used to “compare” modes of being.

    “And if “different” and “same” are both terms that can refer to reality1, then “similarity”, being nothing but the combination of “same” and “different” should also refer to reality1.”

    Sort of. Similar could refer to things that are real1 only if they lack immanent final causality (i.e. human artifacts). The trick is to see that identical or non-identical deal directly with unities. When you start dividing up a real1 being (with immanent final causality) into some parts that are the same and some that are different, your “parts” then refer to something that is real2 instead of directly referring to something that is real1.

    “Again, it seems that a consistent Thomism would say that the only words that refer to reality1 are proper names, and all other terms can only refer to reality2, at best.”

    Sounds good to me. I think Aristotle says as much if I am not mistaken.

    “But if I am correct, then even if those terms only apply to real1 beings, they can only do so using concepts that can only refer to reality2.”

    No. What you should have said is 'even if those terms only apply to real1 beings, they can only do so by using concepts that are real2 entities.' Reference can deal with real1 or real2 entities, no problem.

    “So, univocal, analogical and equivocal predication are all necessarily real2 concepts that are trying to compare two real1 beings.”

    Yes.

    (continued)

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  46. (continued)

    “Perhaps a solution would be to say that neither real1 nor real2 are primary. Instead, they are both essential to any coherent framework to understand the universe. In other words, you simply cannot have one without the other. So, to say that only real1 beings exist is actually untrue, because real2 is just a different kind of reality, but not inferior in any way.”

    I agree for the most part. But notice how there has to be a hierarchical relationship between concepts and their referents (also known as final causality). Otherwise we find ourselves in the contradictory position that truth is not possible and universal skepticism is true. For example, if the real1 entity that real2 refers to didn't actually exist, then the real2 (in this case a concept) would not refer to anything at all, which would subsequently undermine our ability to grasp the truth. So, I think that both real1 and real2 entities are essential to any coherent framework to understand the universe (like you), but I also think that there is a hierarchical ontological relation between real1 and real2 entities in order for truth to be knowable.

    “And the rationale behind this criticism is that in reality1...”

    Oh, and just as a side note: although I get your point in what you mean by real1 (substances), real2 (principles/universals), reality1 (totality of substances), and reality2 (totality of principles/universals)... I would just like to stress, for the record and for whoever might happen to fall upon this discussion, that “reality” (singular) is a sufficient word to encompass everything we have been talking about. Also, just to reiterate: principles and universals, as contrasted with real entities (terminology used in the A/T tradition), are also real (in the sense that they exist in some way). There are two definitions of “real” being used here, one larger in scope than the other and encompassing the other. Let's keep them straight.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  47. I agree with Jack that real1 vs real2 are not the best way to categorize things, since I think real2 encompasses both formal elements in substances as well as the form as apprehended by the mind or universals.

    It really should be divided further in my posts to give a clearer and more air-tight meaning. But in general, given that I assume I am picking up on some of your thought processes, you will be able to understand my points well enough.

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  48. Jack:

    the correspondence between the logical (conceptual, formal) and the real order is about “truth.” (ie, real or ontological truth as compared with logical truth) When we ascribe “truth” to a “thing” we mean that it is faithful to a mental type or ideal (or form) (eg, Michael is a true man, or Josh is truly a man)

    First, truth is related to goodness and being. In fact, they are supposed to be identical in Thomism by virtue of having their roots in God who is simple. So, the more a thing expresses its nature in an exemplary fashion, the more being it has, as well as being more true, and more good.

    Second, are you saying that the law of non-contradiction is just a “logical truth”, and not a “real truth”?

    The problem is not that “identity” is not, as you put it, an ”individual existing being[]” (though you’re right - it isn’t). The problem for you is the unity of any individual existing being, such as the subject of your comparison “X.” Remember universals (such as form "F") only have their reality in the individual. So the form “F” cannot, in reality, be separated from X and still really be, just as formless prime matter cannot be real; this is what happens with intellectual abstraction. But in reality individual “X” is “X.” Individual “X” is not form “F” and the complement of real X “X’.”

    The problem is that you cannot say that the true exemplars of real beings are individual existing entities who exist as unitary wholes without composition, and then talk about their composite natures (i.e. form and matter, act and potency) as if they are equally real. If I can truly describe existing beings as composite by virtue of having various parts that combine, and these composite parts can be understood by rational analysis, then what exactly is left of your objection that my analysis just “logical” and not “real”?

    Remember, that is the whole point that we got sidetracked on this issue. I provided an analysis of “similarity” that necessarily involved parts, which even your Coffey agreed with. You then objected that this parts-talk was just “logical”, and not reflective of “reality”, which is unitary and not composition at all, except when we apply our logical analysis to it.

    Again, it seems like you are trying to have your cake and eat it, too.

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  49. Jack:


    Let me quote you:

    whatever really exists is really an individual thing, definite and determined, itself and no other; that it is not common to others and cannot be attributed to others; that it is only by being intellectually conceived in the abstract, by becoming an object of intellectual thought, that a thing is stripped of its individuality, loses its incommunicability and becomes attributable to many

    One the one hand, you want to say that the only things that are real are individual unitary beings, and thus all analysis that involves treating them as composite beings is missing the mark, which is why you could reject my earlier “similarity” analysis. You seem to want to say that anything that does not refer to “an individual thing, definite and determined, itself and no other; that it is not common to others and cannot be attributed to others” is invalid as a means of understanding reality, because reality is nothing but the collection of these individual existing entities.

    On the other hand, you want to help yourself to concepts like “identity”, and pretend that they do apply to reality, even though they are nothing but a judgment made by a mind by virtue of applying a concept, which your own Coffey agrees with in the quote that you cite. Furthermore, this concept actually depends upon composition, because what makes X identical to Y is that X shares the same attributes as Y (e.g. having the same form and matter, the same degree of act and potency, as well as having the same spatio-temporal location, the same history, and so on). And all of these are the parts that combine into a unitary whole to describe and delineate what X is. None of these parts are “an individual thing, definite and determined, itself and no other; that it is not common to others and cannot be attributed to others”, and thus cannot be real1. And if they cannot be real1, then you cannot have an identity relation that is equally real1. It must be real2.

    Even if you could defend this approach to individual existing being then you no longer have one individual but (at least) two individuals. Looking at “identity” or “similar” relations across X and Y we now see (by your scheme) X is (at least) two individuals X’ and F; and Y is (at least) two individuals: Y’ and F; and the identity relation holds for F only.

    Not at all. Real1 entities are individual beings. Real2 entities are not individual beings, but they are still real.

    Of course if X and Y are one and the same this is a case of “real identity" (and adequate identity.)

    Again, “real identity” presupposes that “identity” can be a part of reality. Explain to me how this is possible when the only things that really exist are individual existing beings? Imagine you are looking at a number of individual existing entities. Where do you see “identity” amongst them? You don’t. So, “identity” is a different kind of reality, one that is based upon intellectual abstraction of formal concepts, which necessarily trades in what is real2, and not what is real1.

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  50. Jack:


    No, this doesn’t clarify things. Again, I’ve not understood why we need real1 and real2 – the Scholastic descriptions are out there and easily referenceable. What do you think the idea of real2 adds?

    It adds that reality is not exclusively the set of individually existing beings, such as dogs, cats, and so on. I would say that this corresponds to reality1. What this misses is the fact that there are universals, forms, logical concepts and composition analysis, which all refer to aspects of reality distinct from what is real1. To make it absolutely clear which aspects of reality we are referring to and to avoid equivocation, I prefer to call the former real1 and the latter real2.

    "Identity is one of those elementary concepts which cannot be defined; but perhaps we may describe it as the logical relation through which the mind asserts the objects of two or more of its thoughts to be really one."

    As I mentioned above, even here, Coffey says that “identity” is a “concept” and a “logical relation” that “the mind asserts”. Again, if you hold the Thomist line, and say that the only real things are individual existing beings, then logical concepts, such as “identity”, cannot be real. However, they are not nothing, even though they are not things. So, I say that they should be called real2 instead to capture the fact that they are true parts of reality, but they are not individual beings, which are real1. And even Coffey seems to agree by saying that “identity” is a real2 abstracted concept that the mind applies to real1 objects. Therefore, all talk of “real identity” necessarily must refer to real2 and not real1, because what is real2 is distinct from what is real1.

    "If the object formally represented by each of the concepts is one and the same--as, e.g. when we compare "A" with "A" or "man" with "rational animal," or, in general, any object with its definition--the identity is both real and logical (or conceptual, formal). If the concepts differ in their formal objects while representing one and the same reality--as when we compare "St Peter" with "head of apostles," or "man" with "rational"--the identity is real, but not logical or formal. Finally, if we represent two or more realities, "John, James, Thomas," by the same formal concept, "man," the identity is merely logical or formal, not real. Of these three kinds of identity the first is sometimes called adequate, the second and third inadequate."

    This paragraph is the reason why I thought we needed a clear-cut distinction between real1 and real2. For example, when he discusses comparing “any object with its definition”, then “the identity is both real and logical”, he is confusing reality1 with reality2. When we are talking about logical and definitional matters, then we are in reality2, because logical concepts and definitions are mental abstractions from real1 individuals, and thus must be real2.

    Let’s look at the three types of identity a bit closer.

    In the first type, he describes “adequate identity”, which is real and logical identity. He talks about (1) “A” is “A”, and (2) “man” is “rational animal”. Notice that neither “A” nor “man” refers to a particular being, but rather are abstracted universal concepts. As such, they are either part of the necessity of logic or part of the necessity of analytic definitions. Thus, they do not refer to reality1 at all, but only reality2, in my terminology. So, when he says that this type of identity is both “real and logical”, then he must be saying real2 and logical, and not real1 and logical, which is an oxymoron.

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  51. Jack:


    In the second type, he describes the difference between a proper name referring to a particular existing being X, and a partial description of X. In the former, there are no universals or logical abstractions required at all, because a proper name is just a symbol that necessarily always picks out X, and nothing else. In the latter, abstracted concepts are absolutely necessary, because all descriptions utilize such concepts. Furthermore, the description of X necessarily misses out on other equally accurate descriptions of X, because there is always more to X than can be described about X, and thus only captures part of the story of X. And since X cannot have real1 parts at all, it follows that these descriptions of X must be real2 rather than real1. So, the proper name example can be understood as a real1 relation, because there is nothing but individual existing beings involved, but the description relation must be understood as a real2 relation, because both abstracted concepts and composition analysis are used, both of which are necessarily part of what is real2 rather than real1, by your own agreement.

    In the third type, he describes different real1 individuals that share a common real2 form. They are identical in the sense that they share the same form, but are not really identical, because they are different individuals. Again, this would mean that they are similar, but similarity involves both abstract concepts and parts, which are supposed to be impossible in reality1, and thus can only exist in reality2.

    So, of the three types that Coffey described, only the proper name attached to a real1 entity does not involve abstracted concepts and logical analysis of parts, and thus can be considered a real1 relation. However, all the others are best understood as different real2 relations.

    "It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity--identity under the common concept of some quality (in the wide sense of this term)."

    What I read this statement as saying is that real1 similarity is not a partial real1 identity, because neither real1 similarity nor partial real1 identity are possible, because in reality1, there are only particular existing beings, which cannot be subdivided in reality1, and thus cannot be part of a “similarity” or “partial identity” relation, because both of these presuppose “parts” and “logical analysis”. That is the only way that I can make a rational argument for this position.

    If that is the case, then these relations must be part of reality2, which he seems to agree with when he starts talking about “partial logical identity”. In other words, “similarity” and “partial identity” are both part of the formal and logical abstractions that we use to understand real1 beings. So, since real1 beings cannot be really1 subdivided into parts, being by definition whole particular existing beings, then the analysis that involves subdividing them into parts and analyzing those parts with logic and formal concepts utilizes real2 attributes that they possess, and manipulating them conceptually in the mind.

    This is the only way that I can understand your claim without equivocating on “real”, and pretending that what is real1 can be understood using real2 concepts, but really, this cannot work, because they are different, except that it does, because they are the same, but it doesn’t, because they are different, and on and on.

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  52. Jack:


    The next question is whether knowledge that comes from analysis of real2 concepts is a legitimate way to understand real1 entities. I would say that it is, because the real2 attributes that real1 entities have are part of what real1 entities are. Therefore, I would reject your drawing the line of reality by saying that really real reality only refers to individually existing beings that cannot be understood according to a logical and conceptual analysis of the parts that are unified to form those beings. Reality is broader than that, and if you include the fact that the parts that unify to form individual beings are really real, then you would not be stuck in the dilemma of necessarily using tools to understand reality that by definition are designed to fail in their task.

    If you agree that using abstracted concepts and analysis is a legitimate way to understand reality, because reality is composed of individual beings that have multiple parts that unify into what they are, then you cannot object to my similarity analysis, and my argument against Thomist analogy holds. Remember, your whole argument, as far as I understand it, is that my argument above fails, because it treats the parts that compose the whole of individual beings as real and true, which you claim is illegitimate, because the individuals that exist in reality do not really have parts. In other words, they do not really have form and matter, act and potency, predicates, attributes, and so on. These are all just in the mind, except that they are also real (because otherwise, there would be extreme skepticism), except that they aren’t (because then my argument would hold), except that they are (because otherwise, there would be extreme skepticism), and on and on. Why not just say that they are all really real, but are different aspects of reality, all equally important?

    real identity: whatever we can predicate affirmatively about a being considered as one, and as a subject of a judgment, we regard as really identical with that being. We cannot predicate a real part of its real whole, or vice versa."

    Again, this puts “real identity” in the mind “as a subject of a judgment” in which “we regard” something as “really identical”. You want to treat it as an objective fact about existing individual beings, which are really real, i.e. real1, when this necessarily involves concepts that cannot be realy real, according to your own definitions. The real2 invades our understanding of the real1, and you are trying to pretend to have pure understanding independent of any conceptual underpinning. I don’t think that is possible at all, and that any time you offer a “judgment” and “regard” something in some way, then you are necessarily utilizing formal concepts, and thus are using what you consider illegitimate tools to understand what is really real.

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  53. Michael:

    Basically you're saying that the word “identity” can refer to its abstract concept. True. But more fundamental, is what the concept is about in the particular predication. And what identity (the concept if you will, before any self-reflection turns it into a higher order abstraction) can refer to in a particular predication are either real1 or real2 beings. You may be confusing identity's essence as a relation (something real2) with its function (that can refer to something real1 or real2).

    But you are skipping over the problem with saying that two real1 beings can be identical. Upon what basis, without using concepts or composition analysis, can you say that two real1 beings are identical? You cannot say that they have the same form and matter combination, the same degree of act and potency, the same spatiotemporal location, the same attributes and qualities, the same history, and so on, because real1 beings, according to Jack, have no real parts. In reality, they are unified particular beings, and all abstractions about them in terms of formal concepts and composition analysis are in the mind as a “judgment”, and thus have no bearing upon how they truly exist in reality. In other words, they are distortions of their true way of being, and thus cannot be relied upon for legitimate understanding.

    Sort of. Similar could refer to things that are real1 only if they lack immanent final causality (i.e. human artifacts). The trick is to see that identical or non-identical deal directly with unities. When you start dividing up a real1 being (with immanent final causality) into some parts that are the same and some that are different, your “parts” then refer to something that is real2 instead of directly referring to something that is real1.

    Exactly. And I would say that without this division into parts that identify what a thing is (e.g. form and matter, act and potency, location in space-time, history, and so on), you could not say that two real1 things are “identical” or “different”, because then you would have to explain upon what basis you are making these judgments.

    No. What you should have said is 'even if those terms only apply to real1 beings, they can only do so by using concepts that are real2 entities.' Reference can deal with real1 or real2 entities, no problem.

    But then what exactly does “form”, for example, refer to in a unified particular being? It cannot refer to a part of that being, because that being has no parts. It also is not referring to the whole of that being, because there is more to a being than simply its form. It seems that the only way out of this dilemma is to reject the idea that real existing individuals do not really have parts that are united in a composition, because otherwise, you are stuck with the bizarre idea that the language and concepts that we use to refer to reality does not actually refer to anything considered really real.

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  54. Michael:


    For example, if the real1 entity that real2 refers to didn't actually exist, then the real2 (in this case a concept) would not refer to anything at all, which would subsequently undermine our ability to grasp the truth.

    On the other hand, if a real1 entity did not really have real2 properties, then that real1 entity would not actually be anything at all. In other words, a real1 thing’s identity comes from its real2 parts, and thus you cannot have the one without the other. Neither is primary or secondary.

    So, I think that both real1 and real2 entities are essential to any coherent framework to understand the universe (like you), but I also think that there is a hierarchical ontological relation between real1 and real2 entities in order for truth to be knowable.

    And I disagree with this hierarchy. They are both essential.

    I would just like to stress, for the record and for whoever might happen to fall upon this discussion, that “reality” (singular) is a sufficient word to encompass everything we have been talking about. Also, just to reiterate: principles and universals, as contrasted with real entities (terminology used in the A/T tradition), are also real (in the sense that they exist in some way). There are two definitions of “real” being used here, one larger in scope than the other and encompassing the other. Let's keep them straight.

    Agreed.

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  55. dguller,

    I won't answer everything you said against Jack's comments, but...

    You're equivocating on the definition of "real" again and not using it in the A/T tradition.

    Also, you are confused about epistemology and what we perceive. We don't first and foremost perceive concepts, we perceive beings by medium of their formal cause.

    So, of course anything we talk about is associated with concepts (real2) because that is how our mind works. But that is not important. What is important in the present context is not that concepts are real1 or real2 (again, they are real2), it's what the concept points to that is of importance. And the concept of identity can point to both real1 or real2 entities. Reference can point to either real1 or real2 entities without a problem.

    You are trying to say that identity cannot point to real1 entities, which is absurd. Again, the ontological character of concepts is really besides the point; it's what the concepts point to that matter in this context.

    And the whole contention is that you are treating real2 objects as real1 objects when you use analogical, univocal, or equivocal predication. There is no problem with identity pointing to real2 entities, but there is a problem with treating mode of being like a real2 object and then expecting it to have both sense and referent (which it doesn't have both).

    Again, when these concepts (univocal, analogical, equivocal predication) point directly to something that is a category of being, there are both a sense and referent to work with. When these concepts point to something that is abstracted further, there are not both sense and referent to work with. And when you don't have both sense and referent, then analogical, univocal, and equivocal predication doesn't get off the ground--thus, in general, the game must stop at the first level of of mode of being and referent... we cannot keep going.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  56. dguller

    "Second, are you saying that the law of non-contradiction is just a “logical truth”, and not a “real truth”?"

    The law of non-contradiction, being a product of reason (like all such laws), is dependent for its existence on a rational mind. Do you deny this?

    I say, yes, the law of non-contradiction is a "logical truth" which also makes it a necessary truth. That is, it could not not be true. Why? Because even if all human minds went out of existence, it would be in the mind of God who, being eternal and immutable, cannot change. When you say "just a "logical truth"" are you implying some sort of inferiority?

    The truths that correspond to individual existing beings, on the other hand, are contingent as are those beings themselves.

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  57. dguller

    "The problem is that you cannot say that the true exemplars of real beings are individual existing entities who exist as unitary wholes without composition, and then talk about their composite natures (i.e. form and matter, act and potency) as if they are equally real. If I can truly describe existing beings as composite by virtue of having various parts that combine, and these composite parts can be understood by rational analysis, then what exactly is left of your objection that my analysis just “logical” and not “real”?"

    I'm sorry I'm no professor, or teacher, of philosophy, and so my attempts to explain the background to you are probably lacking. That's one reason why I keep exhorting you to read all that's relevant in Coffey's Ontology, or similar.

    That said, concepts like "similarity," "identity," and other relations are all outcomes of ratiocinative thought and depend for their existence on some appropriately rational mind. This in no way implies subjectivity, or the impossibility of knowledge, or some other nihilistic doom - what leads you to think otherwise?

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  58. dguller

    As to the rest I don't think it will help for me to answer each point in your remaining posts; there's just too much, and it basically all says the same thing:

    "It adds that reality is not exclusively the set of individually existing beings, such as dogs, cats, and so on. I would say that this corresponds to reality1. What this misses is the fact that there are universals, forms, logical concepts and composition analysis, which all refer to aspects of reality distinct from what is real1. To make it absolutely clear which aspects of reality we are referring to and to avoid equivocation, I prefer to call the former real1 and the latter real2."

    This is about as clear an expression of extreme realism as one could make. You might as well call real2 the "Third Realm" and be done with it. You are free to accept such a metaphysics but the usefulness of being able to consider all real individual entities the same as you would universal mental abstractions isn't free; outside of this particular mission (must validate "similar" as terminating in "univocal"!) I suspect you'll find the price prohibitive.

    There was no need to introduce "real2" to avoid equivocation; we had "formal," or "logical" to do that job more than adequately. I'm struggling to understand what an "unreal" universal could mean in the context of our discussion.

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  59. Michael:

    So, of course anything we talk about is associated with concepts (real2) because that is how our mind works. But that is not important. What is important in the present context is not that concepts are real1 or real2 (again, they are real2), it's what the concept points to that is of importance. And the concept of identity can point to both real1 or real2 entities. Reference can point to either real1 or real2 entities without a problem.

    You need to keep the context in mind for my distinction between real1 and real2.

    Jack claimed that my argument that similarity necessarily implied parts that are identical and parts that are different in any analogical relationship was unsound, because the premise that real beings are composed of real parts is false. And this is because the only real beings are unitary particular beings, and thus any argument involving the parts of these beings necessarily misses the mark of referring to anything real. In other words, the only really real beings are real1 beings, and real2 entities, such as forms, concepts, and so on, are secondary, and thus do not actually refer to anything real1, because they necessarily refer to concepts that are abstracted from parts of real1 beings.

    Now, when it comes to the real2 concept of “identity”, I have been arguing that to say that X is identical to Y, then it must be the case that X shares all qualities and attributes as Y, including having the same form and matter, the same amount of act and potency, being in the same point in space-time (if material), sharing the same history, and so on. That is what “identity” means. What this comes down to is that the parts that compose X are identical to the parts that compose Y, and thus identity necessarily involves parts. In other words, what X and Y refer to is the same being with the same composite parts.

    So, if the parts that underpin the identity relation are not real1, but rather are only real2, then identity does not refer to anything real1 at all, because it necessarily refers to the parts that are the same in both X and Y.

    You are trying to say that identity cannot point to real1 entities, which is absurd. Again, the ontological character of concepts is really besides the point; it's what the concepts point to that matter in this context.

    Exactly. Concepts refer to abstracted parts. For example, the concept of “green” refers to the abstracted color of particular green things, which is a part of green things, and not the totality. And if parts are not considered really real (i.e. real1), then concepts do not refer to anything real1, but only to real2. That also means, according to Jack, that anything that we conclude on the basis of conceptual analysis necessarily misses the mark of aiding our understanding of anything real1. We will be stuck with an understanding of reality2, but reality1 remains trapped in the language of proper names, and thus a very limited type of knowledge.

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  60. Michael:


    And the whole contention is that you are treating real2 objects as real1 objects when you use analogical, univocal, or equivocal predication. There is no problem with identity pointing to real2 entities, but there is a problem with treating mode of being like a real2 object and then expecting it to have both sense and referent (which it doesn't have both).

    So, “mode of being” does not refer to mode of being? Remember that when we talk about sense and reference, we are discussing language and its relation to reality. So, of course, a mode of being does not have a sense and referent. It is just a part of reality2, abstracted from something real1. However, “mode of being” (i.e. the linguistic symbol) does have both a sense and reference.

    Again, when these concepts (univocal, analogical, equivocal predication) point directly to something that is a category of being, there are both a sense and referent to work with. When these concepts point to something that is abstracted further, there are not both sense and referent to work with. And when you don't have both sense and referent, then analogical, univocal, and equivocal predication doesn't get off the ground--thus, in general, the game must stop at the first level of of mode of being and referent... we cannot keep going.

    Can you elaborate upon this with some examples?

    Thanks!

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  61. Jack:

    The law of non-contradiction, being a product of reason (like all such laws), is dependent for its existence on a rational mind. Do you deny this?

    It takes a rational mind to conceive of it, but I think that its truth remains objective independent of any mind’s existence.

    That said, concepts like "similarity," "identity," and other relations are all outcomes of ratiocinative thought and depend for their existence on some appropriately rational mind. This in no way implies subjectivity, or the impossibility of knowledge, or some other nihilistic doom - what leads you to think otherwise?

    But it would remain true that two things are identical, even if there were no minds to conceive of this idea.

    This is about as clear an expression of extreme realism as one could make. You might as well call real2 the "Third Realm" and be done with it. You are free to accept such a metaphysics but the usefulness of being able to consider all real individual entities the same as you would universal mental abstractions isn't free; outside of this particular mission (must validate "similar" as terminating in "univocal"!) I suspect you'll find the price prohibitive.

    No, it is not extreme realism at all. I am saying that it is really true that forms only exist in individual beings, whether in a material or immaterial forms. I am not saying that forms exist in some third realm.

    My only disagreement is with your claim that there is no such thing as parts in real existing individuals, and that they must necessarily be understood only as a totality and unity without any possibility of real subdivision or composition. If you want to get a good sense of my issue, please read my comments to Michael at November 28, 2011 9:18 AM. You can read my arguments fleshed out further in the comments addressed to you passed the quote that you ended this comment at. Actually, it was the least relevant part of my response to you, which I admit was lengthy. I just wanted to explain myself in detail so you understand where I was coming from. But trust me, it does not "come down to" the paragraph you cited.

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  62. dguller,

    “But you are skipping over the problem with saying that two real1 beings can be identical. Upon what basis, without using concepts or composition analysis, can you say that two real1 beings are identical?”

    That's just it, there's no problem using concepts or composition analysis with identity. What matters is not the ontological status of the concept of identity, but what the concept points to... and the concept can point to both real1 and real2 entities. You are confusing how identity functions with what identity is.

    “Exactly. And I would say that without this division into parts that identify what a thing is (e.g. form and matter, act and potency, location in space-time, history, and so on), you could not say that two real1 things are “identical” or “different”, because then you would have to explain upon what basis you are making these judgments.”

    Yes... and your point? Again, the important thing is not the ontological status of concepts as apprehended by the mind from individual beings. The important thing is what the concepts point to, and identity can point to anything.

    “But then what exactly does “form”, for example, refer to in a unified particular being? It cannot refer to a part of that being, because that being has no parts.”

    It wouldn't be a real and separable part, but it would be an inseparable principle of being as discovered by the mind. There are two definitions of “part” floating about here, one broader and one narrower. So yes, it is a part of that being because both form and matter unite to make the individual being.

    “It seems that the only way out of this dilemma is to reject the idea that real existing individuals do not really have parts that are united in a composition, because otherwise, you are stuck with the bizarre idea that the language and concepts that we use to refer to reality does not actually refer to anything considered really real.”

    Again, it's what the concepts point to (not in a representational way but in a formal way, ie. being forms modified by the mode of the mind) and not their ontological status that matters. I can have a concept that points to substance and accident and all its sub-flavors in a direct epistemic way. When I start going into the principles that make up substance and accident, I no longer have the same directness. It's this level of directness that is playing a vital role in univocal, analogical, and equivocal predication.

    “On the other hand, if a real1 entity did not really have real2 properties, then that real1 entity would not actually be anything at all.”

    If a real being composed of matter and form did not have form, then of course it would not exist. But if a real being did not have any universals associated with it, then the being would still exist but we would not know that it exists—the bizarre outcome of your overly broad definition of real2 entities (and anticipating your overly-broad definition of property).

    (continued)

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  63. (continued)

    “In other words, a real1 thing’s identity comes from its real2 parts, and thus you cannot have the one without the other. Neither is primary or secondary.”

    First of all, just because you can't have one without the other doesn't mean that there is no hierarchical relationship. If we constrict real2 to forms and exclude universals (as their mode of being differs!) then your comment makes sense, that we cannot have one without the other. But that neither is primary nor secondary is hogwash. Epistemologically, the whole real1 being is primary and ontologically the whole real1 being is primary. Since form is a part (broad sense) of a substance, it follows that there is a logical relationship of part to whole. And since we all here acknowledge the importance of final causality, we realize that the parts are directed towards the whole and thus that a logical relationship (and thus hierarchy) obtains.

    “And I disagree with this hierarchy. They are both essential.”

    They are both essential but there also exists a logical hierarchy in this context.

    dguller commenting to Jack,

    “The problem is that you cannot say that the true exemplars of real beings are individual existing entities who exist as unitary wholes without composition, and then talk about their composite natures (i.e. form and matter, act and potency) as if they are equally real.”

    No one here is saying that the exemplars of real beings are individual existing entities who exist as unitary wholes without composition. In fact, no one is even talking about exemplars per se.

    Let's get this straight. Pretend I am looking at a tree right now. There exists a real being in front of me made up of matter and form. Through perception and the activity of the mind the form of the tree is abstracted and its essence apprehended. The form that exists in the mind (as treeness) is not exactly the same as the form as it exists in the tree; the modes of being are different, although the modes being different is not enough to lead us down the path of universal skepticism, nor are we led in the opposite direction of idealism. The problem is that you think that we perceive these forms directly without the mediation of the mind, which leads you into idealism. We first and foremost perceive individual beings by the medium of concepts, and not concepts (here understood by you as the exact same as forms as understood in the combo of matter and form). Your epistemology is skewing the rest of your argumentation.

    And Jack,

    “There was no need to introduce "real2" to avoid equivocation; we had "formal," or "logical" to do that job more than adequately. I'm struggling to understand what an "unreal" universal could mean in the context of our discussion.”

    I agree that the tools were in front of him, but, as you have seen this conversation bear out, he demands that everyone conforms to his terms. Granted, that means that we are left with an inadequate division of real1 and real2 entities, but it is still possible to get the gist of what he is saying. He is using real2 entities as synonymous with forms (as understood from the matter and form combo). His major problem now seems to be (and perhaps it was from the start) that he thinks forms as part of matter-form composites are the exact same as forms as apprehended by the mind (modes of being differ). Perhaps he mistakenly thinks that skepticism will result if he sees the modes of being as different. Or more likely he is still struggling with modes of being (it's not easy, and I am no expert either, but have learned a bunch from this discussion).

    But in this context of real1 and real2, “unreal” means just that... not existent. So there would be no such thing as an unreal universal.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  64. dguller,

    “In other words, the only really real beings are real1 beings, and real2 entities, such as forms, concepts, and so on, are secondary, and thus do not actually refer to anything real1, because they necessarily refer to concepts that are abstracted from parts of real1 beings.”

    You think forms are identical with concepts. They are not. Also, real2 entities like concepts can refer to real1 or real2 beings.

    “Now, when it comes to the real2 concept of “identity”, I have been arguing that to say that X is identical to Y, then it must be the case that X shares all qualities and attributes as Y, including having the same form and matter, the same amount of act and potency, being in the same point in space-time (if material), sharing the same history, and so on. That is what “identity” means. What this comes down to is that the parts that compose X are identical to the parts that compose Y, and thus identity necessarily involves parts. In other words, what X and Y refer to is the same being with the same composite parts.”

    Yep. No one is disputing this. But there are two different definitions of “parts” going on here. Those that are in reality separable from an individual being (real in the A/T sense, as a individual substance) and those that are not. Something that you can really separate, for example, would be a tire from a car. Something that you cannot really separate would be the humanity from an individual. If we call the former parts and the latter principles, it may make this discussion smoother. In this context, parts of a being can undergo univocal predication whereas principles of a being cannot (and must undergo analogical predication).

    “Concepts refer to abstracted parts. For example, the concept of “green” refers to the abstracted color of particular green things, which is a part of green things, and not the totality.”

    No. Concepts are abstractions. They refer to entities, whether real1 or real2. The concept of “green” points to greenness as found in particular green things. This greenness is a form that shares its reference with the concept green, although their modes of being differ.

    “So, “mode of being” does not refer to mode of being? Remember that when we talk about sense and reference, we are discussing language and its relation to reality. So, of course, a mode of being does not have a sense and referent. It is just a part of reality2, abstracted from something real1. However, “mode of being” (i.e. the linguistic symbol) does have both a sense and reference”

    The words “mode of being” do have a referent but do not have a sense until used in predication as a predicate. But the rest I agree with. And now that you see that modes of being do not have both a further sense and referent, you can agree that there is no infinite regress with analogical predication. And that Aquinas position still stands.

    “Can you elaborate upon this with some examples?”

    Actually there have already been a bunch of examples in this discussion whether univocal or analogical—either work. The grass is green. The hat is green. Here the word “green” is involved in univocal predication; the meaning of the predicated term is the exact same in both sentences. The referent is the form green (the concept of green we have is the same form under a different mode of being, and thus is not exactly the same) and the mode of being is accidental. And since there is not a further predication involving mode of being as the predicate, there is no further mode of being of the mode of being. Thus, since the referents are identical and the modes of being are identical, we have a case of univocal predication.

    Also, I've noticed that my comments have been getting caught and take some time to display. I've shot two more posts right before this one.

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  65. Michael:

    There are two definitions of “part” floating about here, one broader and one narrower. So yes, it is a part of that being because both form and matter unite to make the individual being.

    Agreed.

    But there are two different definitions of “parts” going on here. Those that are in reality separable from an individual being (real in the A/T sense, as a individual substance) and those that are not. Something that you can really separate, for example, would be a tire from a car. Something that you cannot really separate would be the humanity from an individual. If we call the former parts and the latter principles, it may make this discussion smoother. In this context, parts of a being can undergo univocal predication whereas principles of a being cannot (and must undergo analogical predication).

    Great.

    So, would you agree to the following definitions?

    (1) X is identical to Y iff all the parts and/or principles of X are the same as all the parts and/or principles of Y.

    (2) X is similar to Y iff (a) X is not identical to Y, (b) X and Y have some parts and/or principles that are identical, (c) X and Y have some parts and/or principles that are different, and (d) the parts and/or principles in (b) are different from the parts and/or principles in (c).

    (3) X is different from Y iff all the parts and/or principles of X are different from all the parts and/or principles of Y.

    Let me know what you think.

    The form that exists in the mind (as treeness) is not exactly the same as the form as it exists in the tree; the modes of being are different, although the modes being different is not enough to lead us down the path of universal skepticism, nor are we led in the opposite direction of idealism.

    I agree that a form combined with matter has a different mode of being from a form present in an immaterial intellet. However, the underlying form is the same, but it is present in a material form in one case and in an immaterial form in another. The modes can be different as long as the underlying form is identical in both cases.

    The words “mode of being” do have a referent but do not have a sense until used in predication as a predicate. But the rest I agree with. And now that you see that modes of being do not have both a further sense and referent, you can agree that there is no infinite regress with analogical predication. And that Aquinas position still stands.

    First, I understand “mode of being” to refer to how something is expressed in reality. Some things are expressed in reality in a material form, and others in an immaterial form, for example.

    Second, why do you say that “mode of being” does not have a sense until used as a predicate? There are different ways that things exist in reality. Why does that statement not have any sense?

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  66. dguller,

    “So, would you agree to the following definitions?

    (1) X is identical to Y iff all the parts and/or principles of X are the same as all the parts and/or principles of Y.”

    No, I wouldn't quite agree. Matter is the principle of individuation (but “principle” not in the same definition as form as I previously introduced it... it is not a form). Therefore, under the definition of principle (as I introduced it, as synonymous with form) it may be the case that the same form is at one time instantiated by matter and another time is not, but both would be identical under your definition.

    “I agree that a form combined with matter has a different mode of being from a form present in an immaterial intellect. However, the underlying form is the same, but it is present in a material form in one case and in an immaterial form in another. The modes can be different as long as the underlying form is identical in both cases.”

    Saying that forms are present in a material form or immaterial form is confusing (and equivocation). Forms are immaterial. They combine with matter to make physical substances or they they combine with an act of existence to make immaterial substances. Let's just say the referent is the same in both cases (in concepts and forms) and leave it at that.

    “Second, why do you say that “mode of being” does not have a sense until used as a predicate? There are different ways that things exist in reality. Why does that statement not have any sense?”

    First, I want say that I hope you are not using “sense” in an equivocal way. To use it as I and others have been using it would be to use “sense” as somewhat interchangeable with “mode of being”.

    Second, as far as I know a “statement” asserts something and “mode of being” isn't an assertion without a predication.

    And third, you have a very good point. I should not have said that the term did not have a mode of being. For it is the case that the symbols in question have an accidental mode of being as a non-essential part of this computer display or pixels, or something similar.

    (continued)

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  67. (continued)

    I've been doing some reading recently and it has helped me some. So bear with me as I continue the analysis in the same vein. So to briefly recap, the concept that the words immediately point to is the medium by which it refers to the form in a thing. So the words “mode of being” refer immediately to the mental concept, which is the means we use to grasp what is ultimately signified by the words “mode of being”, which is ultimately the form in a substance (be it substantial or some subset accidental form). So to get into the thick of things: the mode of being of the concept which the words “mode of being” point to, is some flavor of accidental as it is expressed as a mental concept and does not subsist on its own, but qualified in relation to the mind. But the mode of being of what is ultimately signified by the words “mode of being” is something essential to the being in question. For example, if the ultimate signification of the words “mode of being was something accidental, then the mode of being would be substantial, because the mode of being would be essential to the accidental mode of being.

    But to go any further than that would not work because you must have something that falls under Aristotle's categories. And the mode of being of the mode of being of the ultimate signification of the words “mode of being” is not a something (that has an essence) that falls under one of Aristotle's categories. Instead, it is rather a binary judgment—the continuing of the mode of being game would be to deviate drastically from any relevant comparison and stray into the nature of judgments in general.
    Hence the relevance of the accusations by myself and others that you are mixing up real and mental beings by treating the latter as a relevant continuation of the former and its associated comparison.

    The really cool thing about this discussion is that it is starting to shed light on the two meanings of the word “being” (in Aquinas' terms, ente (existence) and esse (essence) are both essential to ens (being) and are related analogically). In the context of this discussion, we are starting to see the limits of the analogy hardware that A/T tradition employs by noting that after starting out with esse in the comparison we move toward ente in the analysis. And for another analogy to happen, we then need to get another esse instead of the mere binary judgment that it is (ente) or is (ente) not.

    Thanks for helping me get things more straight (although I daresay that what seems clear to me will not necessarily be clear for you). Anyways, I await any comments or critiques.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  68. Michael:

    No, I wouldn't quite agree. Matter is the principle of individuation (but “principle” not in the same definition as form as I previously introduced it... it is not a form). Therefore, under the definition of principle (as I introduced it, as synonymous with form) it may be the case that the same form is at one time instantiated by matter and another time is not, but both would be identical under your definition.

    I understand that “principle” is broader than just “form”. I would include under “principle” any part of what defines what something is that is, in reality, in separable from it. For example, its form and matter (if material), its degree of act and potency, its history, its location in space-time (if material), and so on. None of these can be changed without it no longer being what it is. And this is distinct from “parts”, such as the bricks that make up a house, which can be removed while retaining its identity. In fact, each part would ultimately be made up of something that is only defined by its “principles”, which are the parts (broadly defined) that combine to define what it is.

    In that case, form instantiated in matter is different from form not instantiated in matter, because the principles that constitute form-in-matter has a different form-matter composition than form-outside-matter. So, they would have different principles, and thus would not be identical. However, the principle of form of F is identical in both, because it is present either in a material mode of being or an immaterial mode of being. In other words, F-in-matter and F-without-matter, both presuppose F being the same F and not a different F. So, I think the definition would still work in this case.

    Let's just say the referent is the same in both cases (in concepts and forms) and leave it at that.

    Okay.

    Second, as far as I know a “statement” asserts something and “mode of being” isn't an assertion without a predication.

    I would say that a mode of being is not an assertion at all. Assertions are just statements in a language that refer to something else. So, are you talking about the sense of the term “mode of being” or its referent, i.e. mode of being?

    I agree that we need examples to understand what “mode of being” means and refers to, but it does not follow that without examples, it thereby does not refer to anything at all. It is just that until the abstract principle of what defines “mode of being” is brought to our attention with examples, there is just the reality of different modes of being, but that it is outside our awareness. So, I think we differ in that I believe that there is a common core concept or form of what defines “mode of being”, which is present and identical in all different modes of being, and which is brought to our understanding when different examples are brought forth in predication. You seem to think that there is no such thing that is common to all different modes of being, and that there is nothing that binds them together as different modes of being at all.

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  69. Michael:

    the concept that the words immediately point to is the medium by which it refers to the form in a thing. So the words “mode of being” refer immediately to the mental concept, which is the means we use to grasp what is ultimately signified by the words “mode of being”, which is ultimately the form in a substance (be it substantial or some subset accidental form).

    This is unclear.

    “Mode of being” can refer both to our mental representation, “mode of being”, as well as to the referent, i.e. the principle of real beings that denotes the specific way that they exist in reality. I would call the former, the “sense”, and the latter, the “referent”. As I have mentioned earlier, the “sense” is just how the referent appears to our minds from a particular perspective, which can be intellectual and/or empirical.

    So to get into the thick of things: the mode of being of the concept which the words “mode of being” point to, is some flavor of accidental as it is expressed as a mental concept and does not subsist on its own, but qualified in relation to the mind.

    Okay.

    But the mode of being of what is ultimately signified by the words “mode of being” is something essential to the being in question. For example, if the ultimate signification of the words “mode of being was something accidental, then the mode of being would be substantial, because the mode of being would be essential to the accidental mode of being.

    So, “mode of being” is an essential part of every being. Specifically, it would be considered to be a “principle”, according to your terminology. That’s fine, too.

    But to go any further than that would not work because you must have something that falls under Aristotle's categories. And the mode of being of the mode of being of the ultimate signification of the words “mode of being” is not a something (that has an essence) that falls under one of Aristotle's categories. Instead, it is rather a binary judgment—the continuing of the mode of being game would be to deviate drastically from any relevant comparison and stray into the nature of judgments in general.
Hence the relevance of the accusations by myself and others that you are mixing up real and mental beings by treating the latter as a relevant continuation of the former and its associated comparison.

    It is quite simple. Either “mode of being” refers to a mental representation, a whole being (i.e. a substance), a part of a being (i.e. could be removed while the being remains the same, e.g. the cells of a human body), or a principle of a being (i.e. could not be removed while the being remains the same, e.g. the form of a being). I think we both agree that it either refers to a mental representation of a principle of a being, refers to the principle of a being.

    And maybe Aristotle’s categories are incomplete?

    The really cool thing about this discussion is that it is starting to shed light on the two meanings of the word “being” (in Aquinas' terms, ente (existence) and esse (essence) are both essential to ens (being) and are related analogically). In the context of this discussion, we are starting to see the limits of the analogy hardware that A/T tradition employs by noting that after starting out with esse in the comparison we move toward ente in the analysis. And for another analogy to happen, we then need to get another esse instead of the mere binary judgment that it is (ente) or is (ente) not.

    But when you say “it is”, then what is it? You would have to include the essence of X to say if X exists or X does not exist. Otherwise, what exactly are you talking about?

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  70. dguller,

    “I understand that “principle” is broader than just “form”.”

    Well, okay, then I pretty much agree. But I think you are confusing substance with identity in practice as you state,

    “None of these can be changed without it no longer being what it is.”

    Of course location can be changed and it is still the same thing, in the most relevant down-to-earth sense. Only if you ignore the distinction of substance and accident (like Parmenides) do you get the conclusion that you do. You're way too broad (which is okay as long as you don't start making conclusions beyond the scope of your definitions), which is one of the reasons why your original critique of Aquinas on analogical predication is blowing right past it.

    “I would say that a mode of being is not an assertion at all.”

    Careful. I put mode of being in quotes (“mode of being”) to indicate that I was talking about the word-symbols rather than the proximate concept or ultimate signification as found in the concrete thing. And of course, none of these 3 are assertions—which is precisely my point. Small point, yes, but let's try to keep things precise.

    “So, I think we differ in that I believe that there is a common core concept or form of what defines “mode of being”, which is present and identical in all different modes of being, and which is brought to our understanding when different examples are brought forth in predication.”

    Of course there is some kind of formal commonality or it wouldn't make sense to call two mode of beings, mode of beings. If the contrary were true, I might as well call the one “mode of being” and the other “snizzlefrazzle”. As to whether we can always fully understand that formal commonality univocally remains a different story.

    ““Mode of being” can refer both to our mental representation, “mode of being”, as well as to the referent, i.e. the principle of real beings that denotes the specific way that they exist in reality.”

    Your use of quotes is confusing: the first set of quotes around mode of being denotes the language-symbols or words themselves, which is fine. But why do you do the exact same thing with regards to the concept?

    But I think you are somewhat on the same page. So I do not see how you think my explanation is unclear. I said the same thing, namely, that the words “mode of being” can refer both to the concept and the principle as found concretely (well, at least what's ultimately signified). Re-read what I said; I acknowledge that there was a lot packed into only a couple sentences, but you should be able to get it. However, I also meant to say that there is a hierarchical relationship between concept and referent.

    (continued)

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  71. (continued)

    “I would call the former, the “sense”, and the latter, the “referent”. As I have mentioned earlier, the “sense” is just how the referent appears to our minds from a particular perspective, which can be intellectual and/or empirical.”

    And as I've said before, this is wrong. First of all, “mental representation” is very loosey-goosey and could encompass the imagination; stick with “concepts”. Second, concepts are not senses (which correspond to modes of being) of existing things. If they were simply senses (and thus closely tied with modes of being), then concepts would not be sufficient for understanding. And third, your view of sense as merely “mental representation” allows for a skepticism that undermines your argument.


    “And maybe Aristotle’s categories are incomplete?”

    I'm open to some kind of new category that isn't covered by Aristotle... if you have one.

    “But when you say “it is”, then what is it? You would have to include the essence of X to say if X exists or X does not exist.”

    Sort of. You wouldn't have to fully include the essence of X to know that X exists any more than you would have to have something that is brushing against your leg in the dark be seen with the lights on in order to know that something exists. Your principles and properties broadly defined can be so fine-grained in scope that they become indirect subjects of our apprehension—which means the mode of apprehension is different (think analogical language).

    At the latest moment, it seems that the biggest block for you engaging in Aquinas' position is your errant definition of sense. You really need to be on the same page in order to properly refute his position. Unfortunately I do not have any resources I could mention. Others have mentioned sources, however, and I wouldn't be surprised if those sources were able to help you get it.

    As always, thank you.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  72. Michael:

    Of course there is some kind of formal commonality or it wouldn't make sense to call two mode of beings, mode of beings. If the contrary were true, I might as well call the one “mode of being” and the other “snizzlefrazzle”. As to whether we can always fully understand that formal commonality univocally remains a different story.

    Would it be fair to say that for any analogy to hold, there must be a “formal commonality” at some point between the two terms being compared, whether we can come to a full understanding of that “formal commonality” or not?

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  73. dguller,

    "Would it be fair to say that for any analogy to hold, there must be a “formal commonality” at some point between the two terms being compared, whether we can come to a full understanding of that “formal commonality” or not?"

    Sounds good to me.

    But, in context of the bigger discussion, we don't always understand that commonality univocally. Nor does it make sense to say there is univocality without there first being a predication--it is not a metaphysical term (but depends on metaphysics). It is first and foremost a linguistic term and it carries its own specific conditions that must be met in order to use it properly.

    Also, univocality is not the same as identity, and, therefore, it should not be used interchangeably with identity if confusion is to be avoided.

    Also, from my further reading, mode of being seems to be an action. And actions cannot be used in predications the same way that a real being can be used.

    Again, when I translate your terms with their peculiar (read: particular) definitions, I keep finding that you are not at the level of detail that Aquinas is trying to get at. Ergo, it is nigh impossible that you are able to provide a good objection to Aquinas' position on the analogy of being.

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  74. Michael:

    But, in context of the bigger discussion, we don't always understand that commonality univocally.

    Why not? If two terms being compared share a common concept that has the same name, the same sense, and the same reference, then how can the common concept not the considered univocal between the two terms?

    Nor does it make sense to say there is univocality without there first being a predication--it is not a metaphysical term (but depends on metaphysics). It is first and foremost a linguistic term and it carries its own specific conditions that must be met in order to use it properly.

    Exactly. That is why I was quite perplexed when our discussion took a metaphysical turn. This should remain squarely within linguistics, and a univocal term is one that has the same name, sense and referent when used in two sentences that are being compared. Metaphysics seems incidental here.

    Also, univocality is not the same as identity, and, therefore, it should not be used interchangeably with identity if confusion is to be avoided.

    Right, but univocality is a type of identity, i.e. an identity between name, sense and referent when used in two different sentences.

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  75. dguller,

    “Why not? If two terms being compared share a common concept that has the same name, the same sense, and the same reference, then how can the common concept not the considered univocal between the two terms?”

    Of course, what you say is true. However, what is under dispute is the case when the two terms do not share the same sense but share the same referent. In this case there exists a commonality (the same referent), but it is definitely not a case of univocality.

    “Exactly. That is why I was quite perplexed when our discussion took a metaphysical turn. This should remain squarely within linguistics, and a univocal term is one that has the same name, sense and referent when used in two sentences that are being compared. Metaphysics seems incidental here.”

    No, no. Although univocality and the other types of predication are first and foremost linguistic terms, they do deal with the real world and therefore metaphysics is extremely important. It may seem like I am contradicting myself here but I am not. Essentially, my statements could be reworded as, “Don't lose sight of the linguistic conditions when you dive into metaphysics, or visa versa”. Both are of the utmost importance in this discussion.

    It's only a linguistic word game if you have prior assumptions that force the whole of reality inside your head, or if knowledge is impossible.

    “Right, but univocality is a type of identity, i.e. an identity between name, sense and referent when used in two different sentences.”

    Ah yes, you got this right. And analogicality is a type of similarity where there is identity between name and referent, but not sense when used in two different sentences. And since you agree that univocality is a type of identity and not identity itself, you won't confuse terms and say that the names or the referents are univocal in an analogical predication while the senses are not univocal. To do so would be to equivocate between Aquinas' definition versus something very confused.

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  76. Michael:

    Of course, what you say is true. However, what is under dispute is the case when the two terms do not share the same sense but share the same referent. In this case there exists a commonality (the same referent), but it is definitely not a case of univocality.

    Any non-divine examples of a situation where two sentences are being compared, and they use a common term that has the same name, the same referent, but a different sense?

    No, no. Although univocality and the other types of predication are first and foremost linguistic terms, they do deal with the real world and therefore metaphysics is extremely important. It may seem like I am contradicting myself here but I am not. Essentially, my statements could be reworded as, “Don't lose sight of the linguistic conditions when you dive into metaphysics, or visa versa”. Both are of the utmost importance in this discussion.

    Gotcha.

    Ah yes, you got this right. And analogicality is a type of similarity where there is identity between name and referent, but not sense when used in two different sentences. And since you agree that univocality is a type of identity and not identity itself, you won't confuse terms and say that the names or the referents are univocal in an analogical predication while the senses are not univocal. To do so would be to equivocate between Aquinas' definition versus something very confused.

    If you can show that two terms can share the same name, the same referent, but have a different sense, then I think you will have resolved this issue.

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  77. Michael:

    And one more thing.

    Throughout our discussion, you are using “sense” to be coextensive with “mode of being”. According to my understanding, “sense” is a property of mental representations, not real beings. A chair does not have sense, but our ideas about chairs, being mental representations, can have senses and make sense. So, sense is important when it comes to analogies, because all analogies take place in the intellect by virtue of the conceptual connections that are being made by the mind. As such, sense has nothing to do with how beings exist in the universe when we are not thinking about them. And the reason why perspective is an essential component of sense is that all our thoughts come from a particular perspective, and different things (i.e. referents) appear differently from different perspectives (i.e. senses). I mean, that is why they are called “senses”, i.e. on analogy with sensory perception, which necessarily comes from a particular perspective.

    I just wanted to clarify this, because for you to prove your point, you will have to show how two sentences that both use the same word, which refers to the same referent, can still have different senses, and that it is impossible that there is a further level of analysis where the common concept has the same name, sense and referent.

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  78. dguller, Michael:

    I have been silently enjoying, and been learning from, your recent posts. Well done especially on your efforts to align dguller-speak with Aquinas-speak (so to speak); though there still seems some distance separating the two lingos, you have come pretty close to sorting out the differences I think.

    I did want to comment on something that dguller mentioned in his last, as I predict it'll be the seed of later errors (and perhaps inadvertently brings us back round to the starting point of all this – why believe capital R reason “goes all the way down” in reality?)

    dguller:

    ” According to my understanding, “sense” is a property of mental representations, not real beings. [...] As such, sense has nothing to do with how beings exist in the universe when we are not thinking about them.”

    While seemingly reasonable if your “we” means only created minds, I’m not sure what you say is right as the Divine Mind ‘is always thinking’ about beings, and that has everything “to do with how beings exist in the universe”. Actually, I’m pretty sure what you say is wrong. In the impossible hypothesis of the absence of all thought about beings such a thing as truth would be inconceivable. And so would reality (truth being convertible with reality / existence).

    All things depend on the Divine Mind for their reality and intelligibility. If your scepticism about reason is simply that we may not know everything about every thing, I’d agree – only God has Infinite and Perfect Intelligence. But I don’t think that’s what you mean. I think you mean to say, reality possibly becomes unintelligible (ie, no reason for no reason.) As the Scholastics would put it:

    ”The conformity of reality with the Divine Intellect is described as essential to reality, in the sense that the reality is dependent on the Divine Intellect for its intelligibility it derives its intelligibility from the latter. The conformity of reality with the human intellect is also essential in the sense tht potential conformity with the latter is inseparable from reality; it is an aspect really identical with, and only logically distinct from, the latter. But inasmuch as the actual conformity of reality with our human conception of it is contingent on human intelligences, and is not ultimately dependent on the latter, inasmuch as reality does not derive its intelligibility ultimately from this conception—seeing that rather this conception is derived from the reality and is ultimately dependent on the Divine Exemplar,--this conformity of reality with the human mind is sometimes spoken of as accidental to reality in contrast with the relation of dependence which exists between reality and the Divine Mind.” -- Coffey, Ontology or the Theory of Being (emphasis in the original)

    As Coffey says, granted the actual existence of contingent realities, and granted that the human mind can derive from these realities rational principles which it sees to be necessarily and universally applicable to the data of experience, we can demonstrate the existence of a Necessary Being (which I think you accept), a First and Self-Existent Intelligence (which I think you don't). I'm still not sure why you can get to your NEGAB but baulk at other necessary aspects of God's Nature.

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  79. Jack:

    While seemingly reasonable if your “we” means only created minds, I’m not sure what you say is right as the Divine Mind ‘is always thinking’ about beings, and that has everything “to do with how beings exist in the universe”. Actually, I’m pretty sure what you say is wrong. In the impossible hypothesis of the absence of all thought about beings such a thing as truth would be inconceivable. And so would reality (truth being convertible with reality / existence).

    Well, I think there are some distinctions here.

    Truth is always relative to something else, because truth involves correspondence between something and something else. For example, a proposition is true if it corresponds to a state of affairs. You have a proposition and a state of affairs, and truth is a particular relationship between the two. Even on a Thomist interpretation, truth is relative to the degree to which something corresponds to its ideal archetype. So, there are particular beings, and there is the ideal archetype, and truth is the relationship between the two.

    Since archetypes do not actually exist, according to Thomism, but only are abstracted by minds, then if there were no minds, then there would be no archetypes, and there would be no truth, because truth is the relationship between things and archetypes. However, reality would still remain, because reality is not a relational term between two things at all. Instead, it only describes what exists.

    As Coffey says, granted the actual existence of contingent realities, and granted that the human mind can derive from these realities rational principles which it sees to be necessarily and universally applicable to the data of experience, we can demonstrate the existence of a Necessary Being (which I think you accept), a First and Self-Existent Intelligence (which I think you don't). I'm still not sure why you can get to your NEGAB but baulk at other necessary aspects of God's Nature.

    I have little problem with the NEGAB being eternal, immutable, immaterial, all-powerful, and so on. I balk at the idea that the NEGAB has intellect and will. Neither are necessary, and seem only to be based upon analogies with human psychology. And an analogy is not a logical argument, but only the hint of one.

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  80. >I balk at the idea that the NEGAB has intellect and will.

    Rather the question you are really asking is how NEGAB can have intellect and will analogous to human intellect and will.

    Specifically what does that mean for God to have intellect and will analogous to His creatures?

    That I submit is your real question.

    Carry on. Don't mind me.

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  81. dguller

    If we're treating of the world according to Thomism (as we should!), then though you are basically right to say "archetypes do not actually exist, [...], but only are abstracted by minds," it is also true that the NEGAB is the First and Self-Existent Intelligence.

    So it is not true to say, "then if there were no minds, [...] reality would still remain," because the only way there could be no minds at all would be if God (impossibly) did not exist which would mean reality *could not* remain.

    "I balk at the idea that the NEGAB has intellect and will. Neither are necessary, and seem only to be based upon analogies with human psychology." I've seen you write very cogently about teleology in nature in the combox of another article (I can't recall the thread offhand). What is the Fifth Way if not a logical argument for God's Intelligence?

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  82. Jack:

    If we're treating of the world according to Thomism (as we should!), then though you are basically right to say "archetypes do not actually exist, [...], but only are abstracted by minds," it is also true that the NEGAB is the First and Self-Existent Intelligence.

    As I mentioned, I do not find the Fifth Way convincing, and thus the inference from NEGAB to Intellect and Will is not sound.

    What is the Fifth Way if not a logical argument for God's Intelligence?

    Because it starts with the puzzle of how the end (i.e. telos) can be present in the beginning of a causal sequence to guide it towards its telos. This is contradictory, because what is at the end is also at the beginning. It solves this dilemma by looking at how conscious beings can have plans and designs (i.e. ends) in mind at the beginning of a causal sequence, and thus the end can be present in the beginning. It then infers that the NEGAB must do the same thing to solve the dilemma.

    This is not a logical argument, because it (a) simply assumes that conscious planning is the only way to make the end at the beginning, even though there may be other ways that this happens in the universe, and (b) makes an analogy between the human mind and the divine mind, which is not a logical argument.

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  83. dguller,

    “Throughout our discussion, you are using “sense” to be coextensive with “mode of being”.”

    Yes, I was. I do understand that they are different, however. It was shorthand, and for the purposes and level of detail of my comments it was appropriate. I'm pretty sure that if you go back over all the words that have been spilled over this, you will find that this is not a new revelation, and it was done in plain view, and fairly too. It still follows that mode of being is essential in understanding the sense. But thank you for the fairly clear post on the matter.

    “And the reason why perspective is an essential component of sense is that all our thoughts come from a particular perspective, and different things (i.e. referents) appear differently from different perspectives (i.e. senses).”

    Yes, but the way you word things makes it sound that you are putting forth some kind of extreme subjectivism. Of course there is always perspective, but it is not important to this discussion to the extent that our concepts match the rest of reality.

    And thanks to Jack for bringing attention to this quote by dguller,

    “According to my understanding, “sense” is a property of mental representations, not real beings. [...] As such, sense has nothing to do with how beings exist in the universe when we are not thinking about them.”

    First, it is confusing when you add quotes to the word “sense” as it denotes you are talking about the language-symbol instead of the ultimate signification of the language-symbol. And second, this entire quote is trivially true. In practice, yes, there will always be a mind when employing univocal or analogical predication which have both sense and referent. But in principle, sense is not subjectively founded upon a mind, but instead, upon the mode of being of the referent.

    “I just wanted to clarify this, because for you to prove your point, you will have to show how two sentences that both use the same word, which refers to the same referent, can still have different senses, and that it is impossible that there is a further level of analysis where the common concept has the same name, sense and referent.”

    I don't think I have to do this at all. I merely need to point out that “further level of analysis” (euphemism for the illicit treatment of a component of analogical predication as the subject) is irrelevant and outside the scope of the predication being made. Either this, or that univocal language about analogical predication doesn't get rid of the analogical predication—depending on the error which is being made (or both; we shall see).

    Here we go.

    “Any non-divine examples of a situation where two sentences are being compared, and they use a common term that has the same name, the same referent, but a different sense?”

    Sure.
    1) The dog is real.
    2) The concept of a dog is real.

    Points to note: A) that they both point to an act of existence in their respective subjects (same referent), and B) that the expression of those same acts of existence differ from one another (different modes of being). A & B result in the conclusion that the referent is the same and that the sense is different, giving us an example of analogical predication.

    Where do we go from here? Do we then further analyze the term “act of existence”? If we try to do that, it is important to first note that the term “real” as given in the example would point to the same thing that the term “act of existence” would point to. And then it would follow that, still, what the term “act of existence” points to in both predications would be the same, and that the way they are expressed would be different—in sum, it would be the same outcome, an analogical predication but, instead, using a synonymn. In other words, taking the referent of the term “real”, which is an act of existence, and turning that into a term, is just spinning one's wheels. For now the term “act of existence” would have an act of existence as a referent... and so on and so on...

    (continued)

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  84. (continued)

    Furthermore, thinking that the term “act of existence” is somehow understood univocally is irrelevant at best and nothing but confusion at worst. At best, the term “act of existence” could be understood either univocally or analogically in other examples and predications, but it doesn't affect that we still understand the term “real” to have the same referent in both predications in our particular example. At worst, it remains that it would be understood univocally or analogically in some other predication and not the one that we are interested in. Basically, the referent is not understood univocally or analogically, but instead it is the entire predication (composed of sense and referent) that is so understood. And, to top it all off, as you have already admitted, identity is not the same as univocality (a huge hangup that we have now overcome)... so that although the term “real” has the same/identical referent in both predications, it is not the case that the referents are univocal.

    If on the other hand, we wish to further analyze the differing modes of being in the particular example, that will get us nowhere as well. At best it will end in changing the subject of the analogy, at worst it will end in mere confusion. First the former: if one insists that the two modes of being must have something in common, then there is no argument because that is true. But if one were to say that the two modes of beings are either univocal or equivocal, that person would be confused. Why would we want to turn a referent into a term when it is the referent that is relevant at this point and not specifically the term? I know we use a term to refer to a mode of being, namely, the term “mode of being”, but to change the referent into a term is changing the analogy. And now the former: mere confusion. A mode of being includes the agent under the aspect of action. If we were to try to apply the tools of univocal or analogical predication to a mode of being, what exactly would be the sense and what would be the referent? Is the referent the agent? Is the referent the action? Is the referent the combination of the agent and action? Good luck.

    “Since archetypes do not actually exist, according to Thomism, but only are abstracted by minds, then if there were no minds, then there would be no archetypes, and there would be no truth...”

    I will assume that we are talking about normal minds and not talking about God here. First, although the archetypes do not exist as separated substances, they nevertheless are instantiated concretely in the individual as the form. And second, even if there were no minds, as long as there was one instance of final causality there would be truth. Truth is a mind-independant thing because it is convertible with being, and some beings may not have minds. So, dguller is sort of right if we are not talking about God, and not for the right reason.

    All in all, I think a huge bit of confusion was cleared up when dguller finally accepted that univocality is not the same as identity. I think that if we are careful and don't confuse analogical predication's epistemological and metaphysical conditions with each other, that we will be lock-in-step sooner rather than later.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  85. dguller,

    "As I mentioned, I do not find the Fifth Way convincing, and thus the inference from NEGAB to Intellect and Will is not sound."

    Let's slow down a bit. I'm sure you were just talking short-hand, because, if you were not, then your argument from this quote would be:

    1. I do not find Aquinas' 5th way convincing.
    ----------------------------------
    2. Aquinas' 5th way is unsound

    First, p then q is not a very convincing argument unless you have additional premises. Second, I will give you all the additional premises in the world, this will still be a lousy argument.

    Of Aquinas' Five Ways, I am not very comfortable with my understanding of his last two, at least enough to comment much.

    However, when you say,

    "This is not a logical argument,"

    you are missing out on the form of Aquinas' 5th way, which is definitely in argument form. It has premises and a conclusion, at least if memory serves.

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  86. dguller:

    Have I understood you correctly: you have no problem with NEGAB being among other things "all-powerful" as long as all-powerful doesn't include the power of intellect?

    You closed your last by saying: "This is not a logical argument, because it (a) simply assumes that conscious planning is the only way to make the end at the beginning, even though there may be other ways that this happens in the universe, and (b) makes an analogy between the human mind and the divine mind, which is not a logical argument."

    Saying you don't find the Fifth Way compelling is quite different from denying it is a logical argument. And your acceptance of a NEGAB, and your self-description as an Aristotelian, tell me you find the other Ways compelling enough.

    But all Aquinas's Five Ways have the same structure - P exists; P is being caused by Q; therefore Q exists.

    The P in each of the Five Ways after the First is based upon Aristotle's four causes, becoming more 'intrinsic' as you approach the Fifth. It may, therefore, be less 'sensible' but can be known by intellect. Like I said before, I'm not sure how you get to NEGAB and then think there "is not a logical argument" for the rest that brings you to God.

    Anyway, back to you and Michael...

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  87. Michael:

    1) The dog is real.

    2) The concept of a dog is real.



    Points to note: A) that they both point to an act of existence in their respective subjects (same referent), and B) that the expression of those same acts of existence differ from one another (different modes of being). A & B result in the conclusion that the referent is the same and that the sense is different, giving us an example of analogical predication.


    If “real” in (1) and (2) has the same referent, then it must be referring to the opposite of non-being.

    If “real” in (1) and (2) have different referents, then they must be referring to different types of existence, which I would argue correspond to my real1 and real2. Sure, real1 and real2 both share the common property of existing, which would have the same sense and referent, but when you make this division, then you are talking about two different referents.

    So, there is either the same sense and referent or different senses and referents, and it is not the case that you have shown different senses and referents at all.

    If you are making an analogy between a dog and a concept of a dog, then the commonality between them would be the fact that both exist, which would both refer to the fact that they are not nothing at all, but rather are different kinds of something. If you are referring to real1 and real2, then the analogy fails, because these are different, as is the fact that a dog is material and a concept is immaterial.

    And then it would follow that, still, what the term “act of existence” points to in both predications would be the same, and that the way they are expressed would be different—in sum, it would be the same outcome, an analogical predication but, instead, using a synonymn. In other words, taking the referent of the term “real”, which is an act of existence, and turning that into a term, is just spinning one's wheels. For now the term “act of existence” would have an act of existence as a referent... and so on and so on...

    No, if you are referring to the fact that they exist, then it would have the same sense and referent, i.e. the opposite of non-being or nothingness. However, if you are specifying the different types of existence, then you have two different referents, i.e. real1 and real2. Sure, real1 and real2 share a commonality, and if you are talking about that commonality, then it has the same sense and referent, but if you are talking about the different modes of being, then you have different referents. Just because those different referents both also refer to a common referent does not change the fact that they are different referents to begin with.

    It would be like talking about insects and mammals as having different senses, but the same referent, because they are simply different types of living beings, which is surely a stretch of “sense” and “referent”. So, it depends upon the context. If you are playing up the similarities, then you must be referring to the commonality between them, which would imply the same sense and referent, and if you are playing up the differences, then you have different senses and referents.

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  88. Jack:

    Have I understood you correctly: you have no problem with NEGAB being among other things "all-powerful" as long as all-powerful doesn't include the power of intellect?

    Yup. It also doesn’t include the power of defecation, either.

    But all Aquinas's Five Ways have the same structure - P exists; P is being caused by Q; therefore Q exists.

    It is the middle premise that is the problem. How does one know that P is being caused by Q in the Fifth Way? By analogy with the human mind. Is that deductively valid, or does it just beg the question?

    The P in each of the Five Ways after the First is based upon Aristotle's four causes, becoming more 'intrinsic' as you approach the Fifth. It may, therefore, be less 'sensible' but can be known by intellect. Like I said before, I'm not sure how you get to NEGAB and then think there "is not a logical argument" for the rest that brings you to God.

    I told you. The fact that it is puzzling how ends can be present at the beginning of a causal sequence, and that human minds are able to have the end at the beginning, does not deductively imply that God must have a mind, too. It simply begs the question that God must do things like human beings do, which was supposed to be the conclusion of the argument, and not the starting point.

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  89. dguller,

    “If “real” in (1) and (2) has the same referent, then it must be referring to the opposite of non-being.”

    Yep. They do and are. And this is quite okay and in harmony with analogical predication.

    “If you are making an analogy between a dog and a concept of a dog.”

    Okay, this is something that is probably a big reason for some of the confusion. I am not making an analogy between a dog and a concept of a dog. Rather, with analogical predication, I am making (or discovering rather) the relationship between the meaning of the word used in each predication. Call it a comparison of meanings (analogy) if you want—I am okay with that. But this analogy of meanings is not the same as the analogy of referents, unless you think idealism is true.

    “No, if you are referring to the fact that they exist, then it would have the same sense and referent, i.e. the opposite of non-being or nothingness.”

    Because the opposite of non-being is the same thing(s)? I think you are confused. That they exist (have an act of existence) is the referent. The sense is “contained outside” the referent so-to-speak by how the referent is predicated. Unless you turn the referent, which is an act of existence, into a term, then there is no associated sense. And if you do... well, just read my last major post.

    And really, comparing the 'power to defecate' to the 'power of intellect'? Especially knowing that the First Cause cannot be material and cannot change. It seemed funny at first, didn't it.

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  90. Michael:

    Yep. They do and are. And this is quite okay and in harmony with analogical predication.

    But if you are making an analogy between “real” in (1) and “real” in (2), then the former and the latter must share a commonality, which we already agreed was necessary for analogy at all. In that case, then the question is whether this commonality must have the same name, same sense, and same referent in both examples of “real”.

    I presume that you disagree with this position, but I cannot fathom why, because if this commonality cannot be the same in both with respect to name, sense and referent, then you are stuck either in another analogy or equivocation. If the former, then you have an infinite regress, and if the latter, then there is no commonality at all, and thus no analogy.

    That has been my argument all along.

    Because the opposite of non-being is the same thing(s)? I think you are confused. That they exist (have an act of existence) is the referent. The sense is “contained outside” the referent so-to-speak by how the referent is predicated. Unless you turn the referent, which is an act of existence, into a term, then there is no associated sense. And if you do... well, just read my last major post.

    First, your position on “sense” seems to be very close to my own in that sense depends upon “how the referent is predicated”, and predication necessarily occurs in an intellect. That is why I argued that sense necessarily implies a particular perspective, which is what explains how a single referent can have different senses, i.e. by approaching the referent from different perspectives, whether intellectual or sensory.

    Second, I disagree that two different modes of being have the same referent, except in the sense of sharing a commonality, i.e. existing. So, if you are talking about the commonality, then there is the same sense and referent, but if you are talking about the different modes of being, then there are different senses and referents, because one referent is material being (e.g. a dog), and another referent is immaterial being (e.g. a concept of a dog). You seem to agree: “if one insists that the two modes of being must have something in common, then there is no argument because that is true.”

    To argue otherwise would be like saying that “automobile” and “motorcycle” both have the same referent, because they both refer to vehicles. They obviously refer to different referents, which share a commonality between them. When you are talking about an automobile and a motorcycle, then they have different senses and referents, but when you are focusing upon the commonality, i.e. “a vehicle”, then they have the same sense and referent. Context is everything.

    So, I don’t think that you have demonstrated a case where two sentences use the same term with the same name and referent, but different senses. You have shifted perspectives from the individual beings, which have different senses and referents, to the commonality, which has the same sense and referent, but have focused upon the senses in the former, and the referent in the latter. However, if you kept the same perspective and context, then your analysis doesn’t seem to work in your favour.

    And really, comparing the 'power to defecate' to the 'power of intellect'? Especially knowing that the First Cause cannot be material and cannot change. It seemed funny at first, didn't it.

    Yeah, stupid joke. Still doesn’t change the fact that the Fifth Way is a question-begging argument.

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  91. dguller,

    “But if you are making an analogy between “real” in (1) and “real” in (2)...”

    That's just it, I am not making an analogy between real1 or real2 beings. I'm not really making an analogy at all, properly speaking. Yes, I am comparing meanings of a predicated term, but that is not your normal case of analogy, at least the one you keep wanting to attribute to me. Please note the two sentences again:

    1) The dog is real.
    2) The concept of a dog is real.

    Now see that I am not making an analogy between the dog and a concept of a dog. Rather I am comparing the meanings of the predicated term “real”.

    “...then the former and the latter must share a commonality, which we already agreed was necessary for analogy at all.”

    What I agreed to is that yes, in an analogy there must be something shared or identical in both analogates. And, much more broadly, that in analogical predication there is an identical principle in both predicated terms. You need to see, however, that analogical predication is not the same as an analogy as used by you. You seem here to be talking about things, while I'm more concerned about meanings and analogical predication (which of course both are important and not independent of each other).

    “In that case, then the question is whether this commonality must have the same name, same sense, and same referent in both examples of “real”.”

    No. Not unless you change the referent into a term can you make the conclusion that you do. And, as I pointed out, doing so is just spinning your wheels.

    “First, your position on “sense” seems to be very close to my own in that sense depends upon “how the referent is predicated”, and predication necessarily occurs in an intellect. That is why I argued that sense necessarily implies a particular perspective, which is what explains how a single referent can have different senses, i.e. by approaching the referent from different perspectives, whether intellectual or sensory.”

    You are partly right and partly wrong. Predication does occur in an intellect. However, a particular perspective is irrelevant insofar as we are dealing with the truth. Your position here seems to be neglecting the metaphysical foundations that predication is based upon.

    “Second, I disagree that two different modes of being have the same referent...”

    So do I. Because to think otherwise would be to confuse a term's concept with its referent.

    (continued)

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  92. (continued)

    “So, I don’t think that you have demonstrated a case where two sentences use the same term with the same name and referent, but different senses.”

    Let's look at what you say more closely. First, if two sentences use the same term, then necessarily they have the same/identical name. I don't have any idea why you seem to be making a distinction between term and name. And as for the rest, I most assuredly did. The same referent in question is an act of existence (note: not “act of existence”) and that referent is expressed differently in both cases. In one case it is expressed in the way a concept exists, and in the other it is expressed in the way an individual exists.

    “You have shifted perspectives from the individual beings, which have different senses and referents...”

    Again, this is wrong. The beings do not have senses and referents but the terms do (of course this does not mean that the terms are not based upon the beings).

    “Still doesn’t change the fact that the Fifth Way is a question-begging argument.”

    I don't really see why I should take this seriously at all, given that your definitions as shown here are very far off what Aquinas is talking about. What's to make me think you aren't doing the same thing with his 5th way, especially if what we talk about here is important to the 5th way (which it most assuredly is).

    Basically, now you have to see the difference between an analogy of beings and a comparison of meanings as you are confusing the two (and thus metaphysics and epistemology) in your latest post. If you refuse to use the definitions that Aquinas is using, then you can't say his conclusion is wrong; you may only say that he should use different words at best or that you don't understand at worst.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  93. Michael:

    That's just it, I am not making an analogy between real1 or real2 beings. I'm not really making an analogy at all, properly speaking. Yes, I am comparing meanings of a predicated term, but that is not your normal case of analogy, at least the one you keep wanting to attribute to me.

    You called it “an example of analogical predication.” If you want to say that “analogical predication” is not an analogy “at all, properly speaking”, then I’m afraid that I have no idea what you are talking about. An analogy occurs whenever you are comparing two similar terms, whether they are subjects or predicates. And furthermore, a predicate can become a subject: (1) grass is green, and (2) green is a color. “Green” is a predicate in (1), but a subject in (2).

    Now see that I am not making an analogy between the dog and a concept of a dog. Rather I am comparing the meanings of the predicated term “real”.

    Because “real” in (1) and (2) are similar, but not identical, you can make an analogy between them, which why you talked about “analogical predication”, i.e. an analogy between predicates. And “similar” just means that the two similar terms are partly the same, and partly different.

    What I agreed to is that yes, in an analogy there must be something shared or identical in both analogates. And, much more broadly, that in analogical predication there is an identical principle in both predicated terms. You need to see, however, that analogical predication is not the same as an analogy as used by you. You seem here to be talking about things, while I'm more concerned about meanings and analogical predication (which of course both are important and not independent of each other).

    The question is about the status of this “identical principle in both predicated terms”. My contention is that, at some level of analysis, this “identical principle” has the same sense and referent in both analogates, and in that case, the principle is univocal between the two analogates. You claim that it is the same, but still different, which means that it is not “identical” at all, but rather “similar”! So, either this “identical principle” is the same in both, similar in both, or different in both. And this holds whether this “something shared or identical” is a thing or a meaning.

    If it is the same in both, then it must not differ in any way in both analogates. However, real in (1) does differ from real in (2), because the former is a material being and the latter is an immaterial being, and thus they cannot be the same.

    If it is similar in both, then they must be partly the same, and partly different. And if they are partly different, then they cannot be “identical” at all.

    If it is different in both, then it cannot be “identical” at all.

    The only solution is to say that when you are talking about modes of being, then real in (1) is similar to real in (2) in that they are partly the same and partly different. They are partly the same in that they both refer to being as opposed to non-being or nothingness, and they are partly different in that they are different kinds of beings, i.e. material versus immaterial. And I would make the further argument that the part that is the same is the “something shared or identical” in the analogy, and when we make this judgment, then it means that it has the same sense and referent in both.

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  94. No. Not unless you change the referent into a term can you make the conclusion that you do. And, as I pointed out, doing so is just spinning your wheels.

    I disagree. You want to say that “sense” is not just a property of a mental representation, but rather an objective part of reality, and you also want to say that sense necessarily is only involved in “terms”. I think that you are equivocating here.

    The bottom line is that the commonality between two terms can be a mental representation, a concept, or a thing in the world. It really doesn’t matter which. Ultimately, it depends upon the context. As I mentioned, I can talk about automobiles and motorcycles, which have different referents, and then shift gears (and contexts!) and talk about them both being vehicles, which refers to the same referent in both.

    You are partly right and partly wrong. Predication does occur in an intellect. However, a particular perspective is irrelevant insofar as we are dealing with the truth. Your position here seems to be neglecting the metaphysical foundations that predication is based upon.

    If predication occurs in an intellect, then it occurs from the perspective of that intellect.

    So do I. Because to think otherwise would be to confuse a term's concept with its referent.

    Here’s the problem. Take the concept of dog. It both refers to dogs in the world, and the mental representation of those dogs in the concept. In other words, all concepts refer both to themselves and to something else. That is why there is always an ambiguity and equivocation when we talk about how we understand the world. After all, our understanding refers both to itself as a representation of the world, as well as to the world that is being represented. You seem to want to emphasize what is represented, and ignore the representation. I am saying that both are present, and should be taken into consideration. Depending upon the context, one can be focused upon while minimizing the other, but that is just a matter of perspective.

    If you do so, then you see that your point is irrelevant. Whether you are talking about the conceptual content of the mental representation or the thing that is being represented in the world, the bottom line is that in an analogy, there must be a commonality where the common term, which is itself a mental representation, has the same sense and referent, whether that referent is in the mind or in reality.

    First, if two sentences use the same term, then necessarily they have the same/identical name. I don't have any idea why you seem to be making a distinction between term and name.

    You are right, so let’s drop this condition.

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  95. And as for the rest, I most assuredly did. The same referent in question is an act of existence (note: not “act of existence”) and that referent is expressed differently in both cases. In one case it is expressed in the way a concept exists, and in the other it is expressed in the way an individual exists.

    Exactly. “That referent is expressed differently in both cases”. When you are talking about this common referent, which is expressed differently, then you are not talking about real1 or real2 at all, but about their commonality as just real. It is like talking about frogs and bacteria. When you are talking about the frogs and bacteria, then you must admit that they have different referents. However, when you are shifting gears (and contexts!) and focusing upon the fact that they are both different expressions of living organisms, then in this context they have the same referent, but that is because you having changed your perspective.

    When you are talking about the mode of being of concepts versus things, then when you are focusing upon their differences, then they have different referents, much like frogs and bacteria have different referents, but when you focus upon what they have in common, then you are now talking about a common referent, much like when you focus upon the commonality of frogs and bacteria being living organisms, then in this context the two terms have the same referent.

    For your point to be valid, you would have to show that context makes no different in terms of the referents involved in the comparison. My contention is that you are illicitly changing the perspective and context from different modes of being to their commonality in being, and pretending as if you have done no such thing. When you are open about this shift, then the dilemma goes away, because in the context of different modes of being, they have different referents (namely, mode of being1 and mode of being2), and in the context of their shared commonality, they have the same referent (namely, being). You yourself agreed that there must be an identical and common something between the two, and my contention is that in the context where you are talking about this common something, it must have the same sense and referent, in this context.

    Context, context, context.

    The beings do not have senses and referents but the terms do (of course this does not mean that the terms are not based upon the beings).

    What I meant was that you are shifting contexts from talking about individual beings and their attributes to talking about the concepts and terms that we use to refer to those individual beings and their attributes. Of course, I agree that an individual being and its attributes lack any sense or referent, and simply exist, but when a mind starts to think about those individual beings and their attributes, then the thoughts, concepts and terms that we use can have sense and referents.

    I think that we differ in that I think that a term can refer both to something existing in the immaterial mind (e.g. a concept or mental representation) and to something existing in the material world (e.g. a material thing, such as a chair or dog). And I think that when we are comparing two things, whether they are immaterial or material, then those things must have a commonality that is the same between them, and this commonality must have the same sense and referent. And why does it have a sense and referent at all? Because all comparisons occur as a judgment based upon in mental representations in the mind.

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  96. If that is right, then our mental representation of “real” can refer either to the different modes of being or to what those modes of being have in common, i.e. being itself. When we are talking about the former, then we are using different referents (i.e. mode of being1 and mode of being2), much like when we are talking about individual living beings, then they have different referents (i.e. living being1 and living being2). However, when we are talking about the latter, then we have the same referent (i.e. being) much like when we talk about living organisms in general, we are referring to the same thing (i.e. living being).

    Again, you want to illicitly change the context, which automatically changes the senses, but retain the same referent, as if you never changed the context at all! I am arguing that this is not possible.

    I don't really see why I should take this seriously at all, given that your definitions as shown here are very far off what Aquinas is talking about. What's to make me think you aren't doing the same thing with his 5th way, especially if what we talk about here is important to the 5th way (which it most assuredly is).

    Go ahead and read the argument. It is in Feser’s Aquinas on pages 116-17. He says: “One of the common objections to the very idea of final causation is that it seems to entail that a thing can product an effect even before that thing exists” (p. 116), which is exactly what I have been saying. The solution: “it is impossible for anything to be directed towards an end unless that end exists in an intellect which directs the thing in question towards it” (p. 117).

    My objection is that it is based upon assuming that because human beings use their intellect to hold ends in mind at the start of a causal sequence, which is one solution to this dilemma, then it necessarily follows that this is the only way for this to be possible, and that therefore, this must be how God does it. It is rooted in an argument from incredulity that ends up begging the question regarding the commonality between God and human beings.

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  97. dguller,

    “You called it “an example of analogical predication.” If you want to say that “analogical predication” is not an analogy “at all, properly speaking”, then I’m afraid that I have no idea what you are talking about. An analogy occurs whenever you are comparing two similar terms, whether they are subjects or predicates.”

    Why do I write things when you are just going to ignore it? In the post I was responding to, for some odd reason you thought I was making an analogy between the existence of a dog and the existence of a concept of a dog. Instead I was making a comparison (or, as I already said, an analogy if you prefer—as long as you don't mix it up with the former case) between the meanings of the predicates “real”. I was not making a proper analogy; all I had was two sentences.

    “Because “real” in (1) and (2) are similar, but not identical, you can make an analogy between them, which why you talked about “analogical predication”, i.e. an analogy between predicates. And “similar” just means that the two similar terms are partly the same, and partly different.”

    Correct. The meaning of the term “real” in both sentences is similar. The part that is the same between both meanings, however, is a principle—the referent. As you admit, the referent does not have a sense and referent, unless you turn it into a term. Therefore, in my example, the referent is an act of existence in both cases, which does not have a sense and referent. If I turn the referent into a term and then focus on the term “act of existence”, it will have the exact same referent as when I used the word “real” in my example. Spinning one's wheels.

    “My contention is that, at some level of analysis, this “identical principle” has the same sense...”

    Principles do not have a sense and referent unless you turn them into terms, which would be spinning one's wheels.

    “The only solution is to say that when you are talking about modes of being, then real in (1) is similar to real in (2) in that they are partly the same and partly different. They are partly the same in that they both refer...”

    Modes of being are principles and not terms, therefore they do not refer.

    “I disagree. You want to say that “sense” is not just a property of a mental representation, but rather an objective part of reality, and you also want to say that sense necessarily is only involved in “terms”. I think that you are equivocating here.”

    You just don't see how I can have my cake and eat it, too. The term, especially in a predication, is what has both a sense and referent. The sense makes up part of the concept. Of course, using your definition of broadly defined properties, I would have to say that the sense is a property of both terms and concepts, because being part of the identity of something would be a property—of course too broad to be helpful. But nonetheless sense is based upon, or founded upon metaphysical principles. Take away the metaphysics and you can't do analogical predication, you would just have empty terms. Take away the epistemology and you don't have any terms and their associated concepts. Basically, sense, although a property (broadly defined) of a mental representation, it has objective foundations in metaphysics.

    (continued)

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  98. (continued, at the risk of repeating myself)

    “Here’s the problem. Take the concept of dog. It both refers to dogs in the world, and the mental representation of those dogs in the concept. In other words, all concepts refer both to themselves and to something else.”

    Close. It is the term that can refer to both concept and the thing ultimately signified.

    “My contention is that you are illicitly changing the perspective and context from different modes of being to their commonality in being, and pretending as if you have done no such thing. When you are open about this shift, then the dilemma goes away, because in the context of different modes of being, they have different referents...”

    Again you are confusing a principle with a term and/or concept.

    “Of course, I agree that an individual being and its attributes lack any sense or referent, and simply exist, but when a mind starts to think about those individual beings and their attributes, then the thoughts, concepts and terms that we use can have sense and referents.”

    Yep. But you need to stop changing the subject of the analogical predication (or trying to, anyways). There is one term under focus here. Anything more would be to turn a principle into a term; that's a no-no.

    “I think that we differ in that I think that a term can refer both to something existing in the immaterial mind (e.g. a concept or mental representation) and to something existing in the material world (e.g. a material thing, such as a chair or dog).”

    I don't think we differ in this at all. Rather, it's that you don't see the metaphysical hierarchy between term, concept, and ultimate referent. Apparently now (or perhaps it has been all along) you think a concept refers to itself and what it's about.

    “And I think that when we are comparing two things, whether they are immaterial or material, then those things must have a commonality that is the same between them, and this commonality must have the same sense and referent.”

    Principles don't have sense and referent.

    “And why does it have a sense and referent at all? Because all comparisons occur as a judgment based upon in mental representations in the mind.”

    Yes, but you make judgments about the ultimate signification and not the concepts themselves in analogical predication. When I use a word I look to its ultimate signification for its meaning. I don't expect the ultimate signification to conform to the concept.


    “If that is right, then our mental representation of “real” can refer either to the different modes of being or to what those modes of being have in common, i.e. being itself.”

    No, the term can refer to both, the concept cannot and does not.

    Va bene?

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  99. Michael:

    Correct. The meaning of the term “real” in both sentences is similar. The part that is the same between both meanings, however, is a principle—the referent. As you admit, the referent does not have a sense and referent, unless you turn it into a term. Therefore, in my example, the referent is an act of existence in both cases, which does not have a sense and referent. If I turn the referent into a term and then focus on the term “act of existence”, it will have the exact same referent as when I used the word “real” in my example. Spinning one's wheels.

    And when you talk about a principle, then your speech does have a sense and a referent. We are talking about how we can talk about God, and Aquinas’ claim is that we can talk about God analogously. This whole discussion is about language. In that case, it is about sentences that have a sense and a referent. When we are talking about your two sentences (1) and (2), they have different senses and referents of “real”, because they are referring to different modes of being. When we change the context and then start talking about what the different modes of being in (1) and (2) refer to, then we are now talking about this “part that is the same between both meanings”, which you identify as “a principle”, and I contend that this term has the same referent, but it also has the same sense. After all, it is the same.

    When we talk about something, we necessarily use terms, and these terms have a sense and a referent (with the possible exception of proper names). Your challenge was to show how two sentences, which (a) use the same term in both sentences, (b) both refer to the same referent, and yet (c) each term has a different sense. Your response has illicitly changed the context of each sentence, which has changed the sense, but which has also changed the referent by virtue of the new context, and you just pretend that this hasn’t happened. This is actually the definition of equivocation. Furthermore, you seem to believe that when you talk about something, you are not using terms at all, which I just find bizarre.

    Principles do not have a sense and referent unless you turn them into terms, which would be spinning one's wheels.

    Not when you talk about them. This necessarily turns them into terms, which have a sense and referent. And there is no spinning one’s wheels at all, unless you state that analogous terms do not terminate in a shared concept, which can be symbolized by a new term that has the same sense and referent in both terms.

    Yes, but you make judgments about the ultimate signification and not the concepts themselves in analogical predication. When I use a word I look to its ultimate signification for its meaning. I don't expect the ultimate signification to conform to the concept.

    You make judgments on the basis of terms and concepts, which each have both a sense and a referent. Sure, you ultimately care about the referent, but you cannot reach it, except through a mental representation that refers to it.

    No, the term can refer to both, the concept cannot and does not.

    The concept of “real” cannot refer to either (a) mode of being, or (b) being itself? What exactly does it refer to, if it refers to anything at all?

    Va bene?

    Not yet. ;)

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  100. @dguller

    I have to say. Thought I am rooting for Michael here your are making a descent showing IMHO.

    You are trying your very best to understand Thomistic philosophy and offer valid criticism of it's particulars based on an actual knowledge of it. Of trying to understand it.

    You have no idea how much that warms my heart. In particular when I read the posts of the Gnus' who think ridicule is a substitute to rational argument and knowledge of a subject.

    I'm thinking of one wag over at Stephen Law blog who told me "Aquinas believes in an Anthropomorphic God because he said God loves".

    Oy Vey! It's like reading the YEC's rant on how the Second Law of Thermal dynamics "refutes" evolution.

    Ah no.....

    Anyway keep trying to understand.

    You rock my friend.

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  101. dguller,

    “And when you talk about a principle, then your speech does have a sense and a referent.”

    Sure, but this isn't the subject of the analogical predication, now is it. The original term is used in two different sentences. The evaluation of the kind of predication it is would be done by comparing the sense and referent of the term in each sentence. The comparison of the sense and referent of the term from each sentence relies upon metaphysical underpinnings which enable us to evaluate such a comparison. This is the rough process in determining the kind of predication that is involved. If one all of a sudden brings another term into the fore then one is doing nothing but changing the subject (more or less, depending on the term). Doing what you seem to want to do is changing the subject to 'how can we talk about analogical predication'.

    “This whole discussion is about language. In that case, it is about sentences that have a sense and a referent. When we are talking about your two sentences (1) and (2), they have different senses and referents of “real”, because they are referring to different modes of being.”

    First, it is true that this discussion is about language. However, getting analogical predication wrong is still getting it wrong no matter how much appeal to language one makes.
    Second, the ultimate signification of the term “real” is not a mode of being but instead an act of existence. The term used in both sentences may have different modes of being, but it definitely doesn't refer to modes of being. To think otherwise would be as bad as thinking that conditions that make it possible for us to have a subject are indeed the subject.

    “When we change the context and then start talking about what the different modes of being in (1) and (2) refer to...”

    First, we are not changing the context. It is always understood that we are comparing the meanings of two predications. The sense, referent, and modes of being are all integral in evaluating that original comparison.
    Second, modes of being do not refer. If you want to talk about the term “mode of being” and its referent that is a mode of being, then it would be nothing but changing the subject of the original predication.

    “Your challenge was to show how two sentences, which (a) use the same term in both sentences, (b) both refer to the same referent, and yet (c) each term has a different sense.”

    Let's keep this a little bit more precise. I take issue with (b), for, it's not the sentences that refer to the same referent but instead it is the term which is used in both sentences. Otherwise it seems pretty good to me.

    “Furthermore, you seem to believe that when you talk about something, you are not using terms at all, which I just find bizarre.”

    No, it's just that I recognize the scope of what we are talking about. Of course I am using language to evaluate the language we use in analogical predication. But the subject of an analogical predication is the latter and not the former.

    (continued)

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  102. (continued)

    “You make judgments on the basis of terms and concepts, which each have both a sense and a referent.”

    Concepts don't have both sense and referent, it is terms that do. Sure, loosely speaking a concept has a referent (in that it has some kind of about-ness or final causality; a better term to use would be “subject”, however), and if one equivocates a bit one can say that a concept has a sense (meaning), but that's about it.

    “Sure, you ultimately care about the referent, but you cannot reach it, except through a mental representation that refers to it.”

    And your point is? Universal skepticism? If not, then this is not really pertinent.

    No, the term can refer to both, the concept cannot and does not.

    “The concept of “real” cannot refer to either (a) mode of being, or (b) being itself? What exactly does it refer to, if it refers to anything at all?”

    First, terms are what have the “ambiguity” of being able to have two referents. Concepts do not have two referents but only one (and really, like I already said, we would call it a subject rather than a referent).
    Second, the ultimate signification of the term “real” or the subject of the immediate signification (the subject of the concept) is an act of existence—and although I'm sure it isn't a mode of being, I'm not quite sure it's correct to say being itself either.

    I will try to put it into terms you are more familiar with, which you probably won't see others using all that often:
    Basically, I understand what you are trying to get at. That in comparing the meaning of a term used in two different sentences, for it to be anything other than pure equivocation, there has to be some sort of core (broadly defined) meaning between both predications. But it is important to note that we understand at the level of concepts, and although it is the case that there is some sort of core (broadly defined) meaning concerning language about God, it doesn't mean that we can fully grasp it.

    This core meaning that is shared is due to a shared principle in a multi-principled composite subject of a concept. To act like we can fully apprehend such a “sub-ratio”, especially in the normal mode of our apprehension, is to miss out on the epistemology of the situation. Sure, we can talk about such a shared principle univocally, in that we mean the same thing in both predications. But what is meant in at least one of the predications cannot be fully apprehended, but only partially.

    Language about God is possible and nothing to scoff at, however, it is not fully determinate (but only partial) like most of our ordinary language.
    I second Ben.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  103. Michael:

    Second, the ultimate signification of the term “real” is not a mode of being but instead an act of existence. The term used in both sentences may have different modes of being, but it definitely doesn't refer to modes of being. To think otherwise would be as bad as thinking that conditions that make it possible for us to have a subject are indeed the subject.

    When you talk about an “act of existence” versus a “mode of being”, are you just differentiating between the fact that something exists versus how something exists? In other words, in both (1) and (2), “real” just refers to the fact that both subjects exist, which would mean that you have the same term, the same sense, and the same referent. That would make “real” univocal between (1) and (2). Or, “real” refers to not only that the two subjects exist, but also to how they exist, which would refer to their modes of being, in addition to their act of existence. In that case, I would say that “real” is similar in (1) and (2), but not identical. In that case, “real” cannot be the identical principle between (1) and (2). Rather, one would have to look deeper in analysis to find that identical principle.

    First, we are not changing the context. It is always understood that we are comparing the meanings of two predications. The sense, referent, and modes of being are all integral in evaluating that original comparison.

    You are changing the context. You are shifting gears from talking about the act of existence, which seems to refer to the sheer fact that something exists as opposed to its not existing at all, to the different modes of being, which seems to refer to the different ways that something can exist. If you are sticking with the former context, then “real” in (1) and (2) is identical, and thus univocal. If you are sticking with the latter context, then “real” has a different sense and referent in (1) and (2), and thus you have not met my challenge.

    I take issue with (b), for, it's not the sentences that refer to the same referent but instead it is the term which is used in both sentences. Otherwise it seems pretty good to me.

    Except that terms get their meaning within the context of the sentence, which get their meaning within the context of other sentences. But anyway, as long as you agree with the challenge. As I said above, it does not seem that you have met it, and you must meet it for the doctrine of analogy to be preserved.

    Second, the ultimate signification of the term “real” or the subject of the immediate signification (the subject of the concept) is an act of existence—and although I'm sure it isn't a mode of being, I'm not quite sure it's correct to say being itself either.

    Okay.

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  104. But it is important to note that we understand at the level of concepts, and although it is the case that there is some sort of core (broadly defined) meaning concerning language about God, it doesn't mean that we can fully grasp it.

    And that is fine. I asked earlier whether it would be acceptable for Thomists to say that God and humans do share identical properties, and thus a comparison between his attributes and human attributes could be rooted in a univocal relationship, but that humans simply are unable to understand this identical and common property. However, it is there, despite our inability to understand it. It seems that you are on board with this idea: “Sure, we can talk about such a shared principle univocally, in that we mean the same thing in both predications. But what is meant in at least one of the predications cannot be fully apprehended, but only partially.”

    Language about God is possible and nothing to scoff at, however, it is not fully determinate (but only partial) like most of our ordinary language.

    The problem with that idea is how we can know anything about God, if all our ideas about him are clouded in vagueness, indeterminacy, and fuzziness.

    And with regards to ordinary language, we typically have exemplars and paradigmatic examples of our concepts (e.g. real, good, know, etc.), and things become indeterminate when there are examples that do not seem to fit. Then we either come up with different concepts to accommodate those examples, or stretch the meaning of the original concept to accommodate the examples. Regardless, at its root, there is determinacy in the form of paradigmatic examples of concepts, but with many fuzzy borders, because our concepts are not capable of accommodating all of reality within them.

    However, this does not seem to be the case with God where we never reach anything determinate, and it is all and always fuzzy and indeterminate. There is never any solid ground upon which we stand, and it is always a case of terms presented, then drained of meaning, and then pretending that this hasn’t happened at all! God is X, but not really X, but he is X, but not really X, and on and on.

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  105. dguller

    After reading Dr Feser’s most recent post on Greene on Nozick on nothing it dawned on me that much of your insistence on translating Aquinas into your own labels (and on formalizing definitions of “same”, “like”, etc), has “generate[d] obfuscation rather than rigor.“

    As an example: the realities we’ve been talking about are exhausted as “things” or “thoughts” for Scholastics – where is the need for your real1 / real2 distinction? Michael’s done well to keep up with you, but why go in your direction at all unless we’re trying to maintain some mistaken notion that all analogy terminates in univocity?

    So rather than jump into the linguistic tangle that you and Michael are unravelling let me look at two things: your begging the question against similarity-in-difference (in this post), and your begging the question against purpose / purposeful tendency presupposing Intelligence (in my next).

    On the first, you have repeatedly asked your interlocuters to define analogy without univocity as in your post of November 12, 2011 5:22 PM:

    Again, you have to present a coherent concept of similarity without common properties. I don’t think you can do it, but I have been proven wrong before. As another Anonymous has pointed out, the best way forward is for you to present a non-divine example of similarity without common properties, and we can proceed from there. If you cannot, then it would seem that you are simply inventing a definition to justify God talk, which is incredibly ad hoc.


    Let’s start with the fact that Coffey’s descriptions of “identity” and the inadequate types of identity (specifically formal identity) that give us a coherent concept of real similarity were repeatedly presented. You insist that your definitions are entirely consistent with Coffey’s; I counter that your definitions misplace real identity within similarity (ie St Peter and Head of the Apostles are not two similar things but one and the same, which your definitions – because they confuse the real and the formal – would judge as two similar (thought) objects because they have different formal definitions); then in your post of November 23, 2011 6:35 PM you came back with:

    Two things cannot be identical if they have different forms. By definition, they differ in an essential way, and thus cannot be the same.

    While this is true, you haven’t, when applying your definitions of "same," "similar," and "different", been careful enough to notice that the X and Y are sometimes “thoughts” and sometimes “things”, and two different “thoughts” (and the forms that inform them) do not have to be about two different “things”: the Morning Star and the Evening Star are the same “thing” but not the same “thought”. From knowledge of or observations of the Evening Star you abstract different formal concepts than from knowledge of the Morning Star. According to you:

    X is like Y iff (1) X and Y are not identical; (2) X and Y share at least one common attribute; AND (3) X and Y do not share at least one attribute

    and

    Two things are identical if they are the same. If they are different in any way, then they cannot be the same.

    Now plug Morning Star and Evening Star into your definitions above, and amuse us all by concluding that X and Y, while differing, are identical because they’re the same and so like one another because they are different in some way.

    So, your definitions are rigged to suit your conclusion that all analogy terminates in univocity. You claim (notwithstanding my examples) that your definitions are “co-extensive” and “consistent” with Scholastic definitions and this should imply indifference on your part; but, despite this, you don’t use Scholastic definitions. That should tell you everything.

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  106. Michael wrote:
    I don't really see why I should take this seriously at all, given that your definitions as shown here are very far off what Aquinas is talking about. What's to make me think you aren't doing the same thing with his 5th way, especially if what we talk about here is important to the 5th way (which it most assuredly is).

    dguller answered:

    Go ahead and read the argument. It is in Feser’sAquinas on pages 116-17. He says: “One of the common objections to the very idea of final causation is that it seems to entail that a thing can product an effect even before that thing exists” (p. 116), which is exactly what I have been saying. The solution: “it is impossible for anything to be directed towards an end unless that end exists in an intellect which directs the thing in question towards it” (p. 117).

    My objection is that it is based upon assuming that because human beings use their intellect to hold ends in mind at the start of a causal sequence, which is onesolution to this dilemma, then it necessarily follows that this is the only way for this to be possible, and that therefore, this must be how God does it. It is rooted in an argument from incredulity that ends up begging the question regarding the commonality between God and human beings.


    Purpose, or purposeful tendency, or order, or directedness, or aboutness, or whatever description of finality that suits you are the footprints of intelligence; finality presupposes an intelligence that ordered, or determined, the ends or tendencies or purposes granted. As Dr. Feser says in The Last Superstition on page 115 “[...] that seems clearly to be the only way something not yet existent in reality can exist in any other sense at all, and thus have any effects at all: that is, if it exists in an intellect.” (emphasis in original) To assert, as you do, that intellect is “one solution to this dilemma” is to misleadingly understate the case. What, other than intelligence, do you say explains this sort of orientation toward an end that need not exist?

    And then even more illustrative of your prejudice – you not only reject this one solution without suggesting another, you give no grounds for rejecting this particular solution on its own merits. Maybe intelligence is not “the only way for this to be possible” but why should I reject it as one way except for that you don’t like it. Sure you say some stuff about incredulity and begging the question to sound reasonable; but, instead of demonstrating the conceptual possibility of genuine final causation without a sustaining intellect, you’re implicitly asking me to impute stupidity or dishonesty in Aquinas and his defenders. Sorry, no sale.

    Your objection appears to be a misunderstanding of the Fifth Way and you give no defensible reason for rejecting the conclusion of the Fifth Way; would I be wrong in inferring from your other writings that the conclusion is one you find distasteful?

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  107. Jack:

    To assert, as you do, that intellect is “one solution to this dilemma” is to misleadingly understate the case. What, other than intelligence, do you say explains this sort of orientation toward an end that need not exist?

    How does one infer from one solution to the only solution in this case? It is nothing but an argument from incredulity. In other words, since I cannot possibly imagine any other solution, this solution must be the only possible one. That is a textbook case of an argument from incredulity. Even if I do not know any other way for this to happen does not mean that the human way is the only way.

    And note Feser’s quote. He writes that it “seems clearly to be the only way”. However, throughout human history, what seemed to be the only way did not actually turn out to be the only way.

    And then even more illustrative of your prejudice – you not only reject this one solution without suggesting another, you give no grounds for rejecting this particular solution on its own merits. Maybe intelligence is not “the only way for this to be possible” but why should I reject it as one way except for that you don’t like it. Sure you say some stuff about incredulity and begging the question to sound reasonable; but, instead of demonstrating the conceptual possibility of genuine final causation without a sustaining intellect, you’re implicitly asking me to impute stupidity or dishonesty in Aquinas and his defenders. Sorry, no sale.

    First, I am simply pointing out a fallacy in Aquinas’ argument. Surely, this does not “impute stupidity or dishonesty” in him, but only refers to his all-to-human capacity to have made a mistake in his arguments.

    Second, just because we do not know how final causation happens does not mean that any theory that purports to explain final causation is necessarily justified. Again, you have a single solution to this problem, and the issue is how you justify generalizing it into a metaphysical principle that is the only possible solution to this problem. It clearly begs the question, because to make that argument work, you have to assume that it is the only way! If you disagree, provide a non-question begging argument.

    Your objection appears to be a misunderstanding of the Fifth Way and you give no defensible reason for rejecting the conclusion of the Fifth Way; would I be wrong in inferring from your other writings that the conclusion is one you find distasteful?

    My distaste is irrelevant. I find final causality distasteful, but can accept it, because of the arguments in support of it.

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  108. Jack:

    Now plug Morning Star and Evening Star into your definitions above, and amuse us all by concluding that X and Y, while differing, are identical because they’re the same and so like one another because they are different in some way.


    If you are talking about (1) Venus as it appears in the morning, i.e. the Morning Star, and about (2) Venus as it appears in the evening, i.e. the Evening Star, then (1) is similar to (2) in that they share identical properties (e.g. they both refer to Venus), but also differ in other properties (e.g. Venus in the morning does not appear the same as Venus in the evening). That would meet my definition of “similar” pretty well. However, if you are talking about Venus as the common referent between the Morning Star and the Evening Star, then the identity relationship applies, because Venus is the same planet in both the Morning Star and the Evening Star. It depends upon the context. In other words, if you are including senses, then they are similar, if you are only talking about referents, then they are the same.

    So, your definitions are rigged to suit your conclusion that all analogy terminates in univocity. You claim (notwithstanding my examples) that your definitions are “co-extensive” and “consistent” with Scholastic definitions and this should imply indifference on your part; but, despite this, you don’t use Scholastic definitions. That should tell you everything.

    My conclusion still stands. In fact, Michael seems to have come to agree with me, since he writes: “Sure, we can talk about such a shared principle univocally, in that we mean the same thing in both predications. But what is meant in at least one of the predications cannot be fully apprehended, but only partially.”

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  109. Jack I think we need to clear up analogy with dguller before we tackle the 5th way.

    One thing at a time.

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  110. BenYachov

    Sure, fine. One thing at a time. But when dguller says things like, "[a]s such, sense has nothing to do with how beings exist in the universe when we are not thinking about them" that brings the Fifth Way into it.

    When there must be an Intellect comprehending all things and the relations of all things in one eternal act of thought, whether we are thinking about things or not, sense (as I've understood Michael and dguller to be using it) has more than nothing to do with how beings exist.

    Why should I pretend otherwise just so dguller can multiply his errors later? He would like to keep this as a linguistic game and consider all things as a sort of conceptual fruit salad that he can manipulate (ie, compare the form of, or some conceptual superset of the form of, X with that of Y to find some univocal relationship) and has to invent sleight of hand distinctions ("real1" and "real2" are both "real") in order to flit from real unity to conceptual plurality to real plurality to conceptual unity and back to real unity arbitrarily - none of which is necessary or, if one bothers to understand the metaphysics, legitimate.

    But sure, we can come back to it as I predict we'll have to sooner or later.

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  111. dguller

    My distaste is irrelevant.

    OK, you believe that. Maybe I've been uncharitable.

    Perhaps at some point in the future (don't worry about when, Ben is right that we should try and get to the end of one thing at a time) you can help me by showing how the other Ways of the Five Ways differ from the Fifth Way. Don't just assert, "the Fifth Way begs the question, the others don't" because you haven't done anything to establish that, and I'm hardly alone in not seeing things your way.

    First, I am simply pointing out a fallacy in Aquinas’ argument. Surely, this does not “impute stupidity or dishonesty” in him, but only refers to his all-to-human capacity to have made a mistake in his arguments.

    Well it wouldn't if Aquinas wasn't otherwise so solid; and it wouldn't if his arguments hadn't been scrutinized to such a degree that you'd expect so obvious a fallacy to have been pointed out before (I'd certainly have expected a serious philosopher writing a book on the saint to have spotted and highlighted such an uncharacteristic flaw). What do you think?

    And it wouldn't if you had alternative explanations, or if you weren't appealing to incredulity yourself (you seem to be saying, I find it hard to believe Intelligence is the only way to solve this dilemma; I find it hard to accept NEGAB's Intellect would be anything like ours) - but you don't, and you are.

    Anyway I can wait for your responses to this if you'd prefer to focus on analogy.

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  112. dguller

    My conclusion still stands.

    There is no partial real identity. Inventing "real1" and "real2" so that you can remake the formal as real is just extreme realism and it isn't free.

    You'll get your univocal core of analogy, but the cost is that we must conclude all real being is one - the logical outcome of extreme realism.

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  113. Be careful attributing motives to dguller's lack of understandings.

    I've seen him try to explain to Gnu's basic Thomist concepts and why their superficial criticisms are often invalid.

    The lad is on the side of the angels.

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  114. Jack:

    Perhaps at some point in the future (don't worry about when, Ben is right that we should try and get to the end of one thing at a time) you can help me by showing how the other Ways of the Five Ways differ from the Fifth Way. Don't just assert, "the Fifth Way begs the question, the others don't" because you haven't done anything to establish that, and I'm hardly alone in not seeing things your way.

    First, their general principles have numerous examples to justify them. For example, the general principle that all change requires an active agent to cause the change is something that one can come up with billions of examples to justify it from multiple areas of reality. There are examples from the activity of organic beings, of inorganic beings, of molecules, of atoms, and so on. Everywhere you look, you find examples justifying this principle. However, the general principle that all final ends must be present in a mind at the start of a causal sequence only has human behavior as its justifying examples. That’s it. You can conclude that all human minds work in this way, but to make the further inference that how human beings do this is necessarily the only way that such an act can possibility occur is just an example rank anthropomorphism.

    Second, it starts with the reasonable conditional that if there is a mind, then it can hold final causes at the start of a causal sequence. It then says that there must be final causes at the start of causal sequences to guide the sequences towards their ends. Therefore, there must be a mind behind it all. However, this commits the fallacy of affirming the consequent. To avoid this fallacy, one must have the stronger principle that there is a mind iff there are final causes at the start of a causal sequence. Where does this principle come from? By inferring from human intellectual activity to divine intellectual activity. And how does one justify this? By the Fifth Way! Hence, begging the question.

    Well it wouldn't if Aquinas wasn't otherwise so solid; and it wouldn't if his arguments hadn't been scrutinized to such a degree that you'd expect so obvious a fallacy to have been pointed out before (I'd certainly have expected a serious philosopher writing a book on the saint to have spotted and highlighted such an uncharacteristic flaw). What do you think?

    I think that an appeal to authority is very tempting, but a fallacy nonetheless.

    And it wouldn't if you had alternative explanations, or if you weren't appealing to incredulity yourself (you seem to be saying, I find it hard to believe Intelligence is the only way to solve this dilemma; I find it hard to accept NEGAB's Intellect would be anything like ours) - but you don't, and you are.

    First, I don’t have to have an alternative explanation to show the fallacious nature of an argument.

    Second, divine intelligence would be a solution to this dilemma, but that does not make it true. Any hypothesis for any problem would be a solution to that problem, but just because something would solve a problem does not necessarily mean that it does solve the problem. You must first prove the hypothesis. In this case, the Fifth Way does not do so.

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  115. Jack:

    There is no partial real identity. Inventing "real1" and "real2" so that you can remake the formal as real is just extreme realism and it isn't free.

    As we discussed previously, Scholastic theologians are free to deny that real similarity necessarily implies partial real identity, but they must justify this prohibition. This is a problem, because analogy is just the case where two compared things are partly the same, and partly different. This “partly the same” is what I would consider a “partial real identity”, because without it, then there cannot be an analogy at all.

    Now, these “parts” that are identical can be what Michael called “parts” (e.g. bricks of a house, color of paint, and so on) or “principles” (e.g. form and matter, degree of actuality and potential, and so on). I would consider the former to be real1 (which would correspond to your “real”) and the latter to be real2 (which would correspond to your “formal or logical”).

    Using this classification, my definition of “similarity” was:

    X is like Y iff (1) X has parts and/or principles that are the same as parts and/or principles in Y, and (2) X has other parts and/or principles that are different from parts and/or principles in Y.

    This breaks down into two possibilities if X is like Y. One: X and Y have identical parts, which would count as partial real identity, because the parts are real. Two: X and Y have identical principles, which would not count as partial real identity, because principles are not real, but only formal/logical.

    And my response has always been: So what? This is just a classification of different types of analogy, but they are all examples of analogy. It is like saying that an insect is not a human, and thus a human is not alive. They are both alive, and just because they are different examples of living organisms does not deny them their common form. Same thing here. Coffey is just saying that real identity does not necessarily imply real partial identity, but it does imply formal/logical partial identity, which is all that matters!

    You'll get your univocal core of analogy, but the cost is that we must conclude all real being is one - the logical outcome of extreme realism.

    No. Actual being and potential being are both being, but different kinds of being. This does not result in “extreme realism”, just like saying that insects and humans are both living organisms does not result in “extreme life-ism”.

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  116. dguller,

    “When you talk about an “act of existence” versus a “mode of being”, are you just differentiating between the fact that something exists versus how something exists? In other words, in both (1) and (2), “real” just refers to the fact that both subjects exist, which would mean that you have the same term, the same sense, and the same referent.”
    More or less, yes, you are correct with the general gist of the distinction. But further, I don't see how two terms having the same ultimate signification (or referent), namely an act of existence, would necessarily mean that the senses were the same. In my example we have the same term, the same ultimate signification or referent, but a different sense. The sense is based upon the mode of being or how the referent is expressed.

    “Or, “real” refers to not only that the two subjects exist, but also to how they exist, which would refer to their modes of being, in addition to their act of existence.”

    Nope. The term “real” only refers to the referent which has a mode of being. It does not refer to the mode of being.

    “In that case, “real” cannot be the identical principle between (1) and (2).”

    In the first place, I never said that “real” (the term) was the identical principle between (1) and (2). The identical principle is the referent minus the mode of being.

    “You are changing the context. You are shifting gears from talking about the act of existence, which seems to refer to the sheer fact that something exists as opposed to its not existing at all, to the different modes of being, which seems to refer to the different ways that something can exist.”

    First, an act of existence is a principle and thus does not refer; it is not a term unless you make it one, and, if you do, you then become the one who is changing the subject/context.
    Second, there is no change of context because I always keep in mind the term as used in both predications. Evaluating the components or principles of the term is not to lose sight of the term and therefore not to change the context.

    “Except that terms get their meaning within the context of the sentence, which get their meaning within the context of other sentences.”

    Ha. So in the beginning was the ultimate sentence in which all other sentences derive their meaning? I might agree that sentences sometimes help narrow down which meaning of a term we are using or even that sentences help us learn the meaning of terms. But sentences do not give terms their meanings. If anything, it is the other way around.

    (continued)

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  117. (continued)

    “And that is fine. I asked earlier whether it would be acceptable for Thomists to say that God and humans do share identical properties, and thus a comparison between his attributes and human attributes could be rooted in a univocal relationship, but that humans simply are unable to understand this identical and common property. However, it is there, despite our inability to understand it.”

    And while the general gist of your idea is alright, you are wrong because univocality is not divorced from the mode of our apprehension. Therefore, although it is true to say that there is some principle extremely broadly defined that is the same between us and God, we cannot say that it is univocal, but rather sub-univocal—that being the case, one can then see that it fits nicely into the structure of analogical predication. Basically, you still have to translate your thoughts into the Thomistic tradition and get the terminology correct. I won't buy your definition of univocal; change your terms because Aquinas isn't going to.

    “The problem with that idea is how we can know anything about God, if all our ideas about him are clouded in vagueness, indeterminacy, and fuzziness.”

    Those are your words and not anyone else's. “Clouded in vagueness” is very different than partially indeterminate to our understanding, especially when we know extremely well which principles are and are not indeterminate to our understanding; ergo, we partially understand extremely well. The case is extremely stronger than you might think because of the demonstrable force for the existence of Something (which after further analysis we call God).

    Basically, you still don't grasp the relations between term, referent, sense, mode of being, and analogical and univocal predication; in turn, this is giving you many apparent difficulties with Aquinas. Learn the terminology and the many of your differences will disappear.

    And shout-out to Jack. As you may or may not know, we are not using the real1/real2 distinction anymore as I can only guess dguller also sees it as inadequate for what we are talking about. Now, whenever you see (1) or (2), it is in reference to the two sentences in my example of analogical predication.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  118. Side quest (my two recent posts are more important):

    “It is like saying that an insect is not a human, and thus a human is not alive. They are both alive, and just because they are different examples of living organisms does not deny them their common form.”

    Except when you get to the concept of being. It doesn't really work as nicely as your example. The concept of being is not abstracted by the mind but separated. For anything I can point to are things that exist, and yet, together, all those things exist. It is common to one and many but fully determinate, unlike an abstracted universal. Try abstracting being from an individual like humanity or color—it doesn't work. I'm skipping steps, but this is what the analogy of being is based upon. Basically, it's the base of our experience just like the LNC is the base of our thinking. It ensures that no matter how much you probe and dissect and analyze and formalize and think about a gnat, there is still something incommunicable, some further inexhaustible mystery that we cannot extinguish no matter how many times we see one.

    “No. Actual being and potential being are both being, but different kinds of being.”

    Sort of, but only under the analogy of being since every potential being includes something actual.

    “This does not result in “extreme realism”...”

    Cool thing which I picked up from this book I'm reading: Extreme realism can be a consequence of essentialism which defines the real as real insofar as something is what it is, viz. A dog is real insofar as it is a dog. But also, the Humean kind of empiricism that denies substances and leads to the 'everything is sound and fury and signifies nothing' can also be a consequence of essentialism. Basically, the follower of Plato starts with the mental life as real and then sees that the rest of the world doesn't fit the mold and therefore doesn't really exist, while the follower of a Hume (there are other figures I could have picked out) starts with the sensible as real and then sees that the rest of the world (mental life) doesn't fit the mold and therefore doesn't really exist. The Thomist analysis, of course, doesn't make either error and fuses each aspect that Plato and Hume get right while leaving out what they get wrong.

    That's a brutish summary, but as Chesterton says, sometimes the best things in life are those which are worth doing poorly. If anyone can see a ding of truth in this I will consider the word-soup worthwhile.

    But alas, I cannot play the quick posting game as you all seem to be doing, as I get modded every time.

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  119. dguller

    Your post of December 19, 2011 5:31 PM needs a decent response. But I'm in the UK and now the 49ers have won I'm tired, and I'm going to bed; I'll come back to you properly tomorrow.

    Same with your response re: the Fifth Way. In short, you've badly misread the summary. It doesn't start with the conditional that if there is a mind it can hold all the final causes. It starts with: if there are manifestations of order in the world they are being caused by an intelligence that accounts for such finality. I'll get to this properly tomorrow too.

    Tonight I just had to pick up on this:

    No. Actual being and potential being are both being, but different kinds of being. This does not result in “extreme realism”

    Whatever else you're trying to say here, you're actually making my point. Prime matter as the principle of potency, and forms as the transient actualizing principles don't have real existence outside of a union of the two. You cannot just point at prime matter. You cannot show me a form existing absent a really existing individual. (Every thing is some thing)

    But when we have any one thing we have a thing undivided in itself. To think of it as really "prime matter" and "form" is to address not one real unity, but two real things - that is the fundamental error of your partial real identity (the formal aspects of the subject are abstractions and not individually real); and you persist in it, flitting from unity to plurality as it suits your definition.

    If partial formal identity is fine for you, then let's not call it partial real identity. They are not the same thing.

    I've said previously in this thread how much I've enjoyed the back-and-forth. That continues to be true - I don't care whose side you're on. And though I don't think your open mind is as open as you think I shouldn't have speculated about this as a cause of the possible misapprehensions. I apologize, and meant no malice; I assumed the tone was collegial enough but then James Harrison never thinks he's roughing the passer!

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  120. Michael:

    But further, I don't see how two terms having the same ultimate signification (or referent), namely an act of existence, would necessarily mean that the senses were the same. In my example we have the same term, the same ultimate signification or referent, but a different sense. The sense is based upon the mode of being or how the referent is expressed.

    The different sense is because it is not just referring to an act of existence anymore, but rather to different modes of being. Now, it is true that an act of existence is necessarily connected to a mode of being, but that doesn’t mean that they cannot be distinguished as having different referents. In Thomism, all created beings are necessarily connected to God, but it certainly makes sense to say that “created being” has a different referent from “God”. So, it seems that the referent has changed from that something exists (i.e. act of existence) to how that something exists (i.e. mode of being). My contention is that these are two different referents, and that explains the different senses.

    Nope. The term “real” only refers to the referent which has a mode of being. It does not refer to the mode of being.

    Then how do we talk about the mode of being unless we use words that refer to the mode of being?

    In the first place, I never said that “real” (the term) was the identical principle between (1) and (2). The identical principle is the referent minus the mode of being.

    Again, in the context of an act of existence, “real” in (1) and (2) have the same referent, but they also have the same sense, because an act of existence is an act of existence, i.e. something exists as opposed to nothingness or non-being. However, in the context of modes of being, “real” in (1) and (2) have different referents, i.e. the different modes of being, which also have different senses. As I said, I think that when you talk about “real” in (1) and (2) having different senses, but the same referent, you are talking about modes of being in the former, but act of existence of the latter. You are not using the same context in your comparison of “real” in (1) and (2).

    First, an act of existence is a principle and thus does not refer; it is not a term unless you make it one, and, if you do, you then become the one who is changing the subject/context.

    I agree that only mental representations, such as terms, can refer to anything. That means that individually existing entities, such as chairs or tables, do not refer, but only exist.

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  121. Second, there is no change of context because I always keep in mind the term as used in both predications. Evaluating the components or principles of the term is not to lose sight of the term and therefore not to change the context.

    But you are changing the context when you shift from a single act of existence to multiple modes of being, which is akin to the shift from that something exists to how something exists. Unless you want to say that there is no different between that and how, then you have shifted gears, and thus contexts. It would be like saying that there is no different between saying that a leaf is green (e.g. by looking at it) and saying how a leaf is green (e.g. by explaining its color based upon its chlorophyll content). These are different types of explanation, and just because they are connected does not make them different. Formal causes are connected to final causes, but we do not say that they are refer to the same thing, but have different senses.

    Ha. So in the beginning was the ultimate sentence in which all other sentences derive their meaning? I might agree that sentences sometimes help narrow down which meaning of a term we are using or even that sentences help us learn the meaning of terms. But sentences do not give terms their meanings. If anything, it is the other way around.

    Take an example. “Green”. What single meaning does this term have when I mentioned it? You don’t know until I put it in a sentence. Here it is: “Jack is green”. Do you now know what “green means”. Not really. It could mean that Jack is painted green, that Jack is green with sickness, that Jack is jealous and envious of someone else, and so on. And to figure out which of these meanings applies, you need more sentences to apply the context. Sure, “green” refers to something in the world, which is where the term gets its signification, but our means of identifying that signification depends upon sentences and context. But sure, I can see how my comments could be construed as you interpreted, which I agree, is totally ridiculous. ;)

    And while the general gist of your idea is alright, you are wrong because univocality is not divorced from the mode of our apprehension. Therefore, although it is true to say that there is some principle extremely broadly defined that is the same between us and God, we cannot say that it is univocal, but rather sub-univocal—that being the case, one can then see that it fits nicely into the structure of analogical predication. Basically, you still have to translate your thoughts into the Thomistic tradition and get the terminology correct. I won't buy your definition of univocal; change your terms because Aquinas isn't going to.

    First, what does “sub-univocal” mean? Is this a term that Aquinas has ever used?

    Second, if “there is some principle extremely broadly defined that is the same between us and God”, then why can’t we say that it is univocal? It uses the same term, has the same sense, and has the same referent, which meets our criteria of univocality. You have been trying to argue that, although it has the same term and referent, the senses are different, but that depends upon the context. If you are focusing upon the different senses, then your perspective is broader than just the referent, and ultimately includes additional information in the senses that have different referents.

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  122. Take the Venus example. If we are just talking about Venus, then there is the same referent, but if we are talking about how Venus appears in the morning (i.e. the Morning Star) and how Venus appears in the evening (i.e. the Evening Star), then you are including aspects of the visual perspective of the former that are different in the former than in the latter. For example, the former includes daylight and the latter includes darkness. The daylight in the Morning Star refers to something, and the darkness in the Evening Star refers to something else. As such, the Morning Star and the Evening Star contains aspects that have different referents when you are using the context of how Venus appears in the morning and in the evening . And that is why they have different senses, too.

    And this actually fits with your idea about how “univocality is not divorced from the mode of our apprehension”. After all, our apprehension is a particular perspective, and thus is necessarily related to the senses of the terms. If you change your perspective, or “mode of our apprehension”, then you change the sense of the term, and in that new perspective, the referent is different, because there are parts of the term that are being referred to in one sense that are absent in the other sense. To go with the above example, the Morning Star includes not only Venus, but also daylight, and the Evening Star includes not only Venus, but also darkness, and thus the Morning Star and the Evening Star have aspects that refer to different things, and thus the referent of the two terms must be different, as well.

    Those are your words and not anyone else's. “Clouded in vagueness” is very different than partially indeterminate to our understanding, especially when we know extremely well which principles are and are not indeterminate to our understanding; ergo, we partially understand extremely well. The case is extremely stronger than you might think because of the demonstrable force for the existence of Something (which after further analysis we call God).

    “Partially indeterminate” presupposes some part that is determinate. What is determinate in our concept of God that is identical in our concept of human beings? If there is nothing determinate in this case, then it is not “partially indeterminate”, but rather totally indeterminate. If there is something determinate in this case, then why can’t this determinate “something” be called “univocal” between God and human beings?

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  123. Jack:

    Whatever else you're trying to say here, you're actually making my point. Prime matter as the principle of potency, and forms as the transient actualizing principles don't have real existence outside of a union of the two. You cannot just point at prime matter. You cannot show me a form existing absent a really existing individual. (Every thing is some thing)

    First, there is a distinction between prime matter and nothingness. From nothing, nothing comes, right? However, from prime matter, every thing comes. Thus, there must be a difference between the two, which means that prime matter must be real, in some sense, to distinguish it from nothingness. If you object to this, then you are stuck with Parmenides’ extremism, because you only have being and non-being. You avoid this by acknowledging that there are different types of being, i.e. actual being and potential being, which are both distinct from non-being.

    Second, a form can be present in an immaterial intellect, and an intellect is not “a really existing individual”. But I may be wrong on this point.

    But when we have any one thing we have a thing undivided in itself. To think of it as really "prime matter" and "form" is to address not one real unity, but two real things - that is the fundamental error of your partial real identity (the formal aspects of the subject are abstractions and not individually real); and you persist in it, flitting from unity to plurality as it suits your definition.

    The form is distinct from prime matter, though. That is how multiple individuals can share the same form, and that form can be present in the intellect. It is the same form in all those instances, some in matter, and some in an immaterial intellect. If the form were not real, in some sense, then none of this would be possible, because you cannot pass nothingness from one entity to another. The solution is to admit that reality is complicated with multiple interconnected levels.

    And, of course, prime matter and form are not “two things”. Things exist through the combination of form and matter. However, as I have argued, it does not follow that form and matter are not real, in the sense of being distinct from nothingness.

    If partial formal identity is fine for you, then let's not call it partial real identity. They are not the same thing.

    That is fine, as long as you also agree that both partial formal identity and partial real identity are required for different types of analogy. And the bottom line is that for any analogy, the two things must be partly the same, and partly different. And the parts that are the same, must be identical, whether they are real or formal, or else they are not the same at all.

    I've said previously in this thread how much I've enjoyed the back-and-forth. That continues to be true - I don't care whose side you're on. And though I don't think your open mind is as open as you think I shouldn't have speculated about this as a cause of the possible misapprehensions. I apologize, and meant no malice; I assumed the tone was collegial enough but then James Harrison never thinks he's roughing the passer!

    No worries. Nobody likes when somebody nitpicks at something of value. I know I wouldn’t be fully calm and composed if someone starting criticizing my parents, because they matter so much to me. Similarly, I understand how much Aquinas means to you, and thus it is understandable that you don’t know me saying that he might be wrong about some important things.

    And I look forward to your future comments about my criticism of the Fifth Way, and I hope that you can provide a non-question begging argument that justifies the conclusion that final causality necessarily requires an intellect in all cases, and not just human ones.

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  124. dguller, Michael, Ben:

    I must start with two corrections from me.

    First: in my last post where I referred to “prime matter” I should have written “matter.” Sorry for any confusion; it was late, I was tired and distracted by a game.

    The second was less a slip, and more a mistake from ignorance: anybody reading most summaries of the Fifth Way could fairly conclude that it was different from the other four. The argument may be presented in a way that aligns it with the others by establishing that wherever there is efficient causality there must also be final causality – but many summaries, most likely including the ones dguller had read, don’t do this and he was no doubt perceptive enough to notice the differences. I shouldn’t have implied otherwise.

    Michael: I'm also getting moderated so don't feel handicapped!

    Now then, onto the Fifth Way in two posts. I'll have some comments on analogy tomorrow (sorry Ben):

    DGULLER: First, their general principles have numerous examples to justify them.

    ME: There are countless examples justifying the Fifth Way. Any adaptation of means to ends found in nature, whether inorganic or animate, serves as such. ‘Means’ here means a cause with an action that has been determined in view of a particular result. I suppose we could sub in finality for adaptation...ends without losing anything.

    DGULLER: You can conclude that all human minds work in this way, but to make the further inference that how human beings do this is necessarily the only way that such an act can possibility occur is just an example rank anthropomorphism.

    ME: Like I said: appeal to incredulity, nothing more (but see end of 2nd post; I'm resolving to stop with the gratuitous fallacy names). And in any case the argument doesn’t make this inference. You basically repeat this in your second point, so I’ll answer below.

    DGULLER: it starts with the reasonable conditional that if there is a mind, then it can hold final causes at the start of a causal sequence.

    ME: Actually most summaries start like this: the adaptation of means to ends is an evident sign of intelligent cause

    DGULLER: It then says that there must be final causes at the start of causal sequences to guide the sequences towards their ends. Therefore, there must be a mind behind it all. However, this commits the fallacy of affirming the consequent. To avoid this fallacy, one must have the stronger principle that there is a mind iff there are final causes at the start of a causal sequence. Where does this principle come from? By inferring from human intellectual activity to divine intellectual activity.

    ME: Nope. It then proceeds: nature offers instances of the adaptation of means to ends; hence it follows that nature is the work of an intelligent cause. Where’s the question-begging circularity in that?

    Now we need to prove adaptation of means to ends is an evident sign of intelligent cause; to put it in your words we need to show that “the general principle that all final ends must be present in a mind” is not a case of having only “human behavior as its justifying example[].”

    We can reach the justification for final ends in the mind only by a number of approaches. One, which has appeal given the genesis of this conversation, is an immediate deduction from the principle of contradiction (or LNC). For a means to be determined by an end that does not yet exist would violate the LNC as it would be to assert that nonbeing can produce being; so the end, if it does not exist in the real order, must exist at least in so far as it determines the means, in the ideal order. You might be persuaded by a Third Realm, but for Aristotelians we have “things” and “thoughts.”

    (continued)

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  125. (continued)

    Given your assertions on December 12, 2011 8:53 AM that “[...] sense is important when it comes to analogies, because all analogies take place in the intellect by virtue of the conceptual connections that are being made by the mind. As such, sense has nothing to do with how beings exist in the universe when we are not thinking about them.” there is another approach that might appeal. What you’ve called “conceptual connections” are what I’m used to seeing termed as “relations.”

    Unless you deny final causation (which though you find it distasteful, you say you accept) a means is such by virtue of being directed to an end. So there must be a relation of means to end, or else the latter, apart from this relation, would not be an end whatever its ontological status.

    As you clearly agree, only an intelligence has the power to apprehend the relation of one thing to another. So again we see final ends depend on intelligence.

    DGULLER: I think that an appeal to authority is very tempting, but a fallacy nonetheless. [...]I don’t have to have an alternative explanation to show the fallacious nature of an argument.

    ME: Now, whether concerning a fact or doctrine, I’m justified in being swayed by authority; it’s not without reason that we incline towards more faith in the accuracy and sincerity of those that have demonstrably earned it. Obviously my confidence cannot be absolute (and even with the Dumb Ox, it wasn’t) but I can certainly weigh probabilities. I know that St Thomas himself declared argument from authority the weakest of all arguments but he was specifically talking about human authority, and doctrine ie, It depends on the authority and the topic in question. So I don’t think it’s a great fallacy to toss down like some sort of trump card.

    Still you are correct (about it being an appeal to authority), and I don’t hold St Thomas to be infallible; but in my defense - you had shown only the fallacious nature of your misreading of the Fifth Way, you hadn’t offered a single alternative to a solution that you asserted was at best only one among many, and you’re unknown to me except via combox posts where you’re always incandescently bright but (for my reckoning at least) fitfully unreasonable . . . I think it was fair to point out that the mistake you attributed to Aquinas seemed very unlikely.

    Anyhoo, I think we’re both guilty of too freely throwing around names of fancy fallacies. Certainly (on re-reading) I am, and I'll try to rein that in.

    Let me know your thoughts on the above posts – there are other strong arguments, mutually reinforcing, for the Personal God (note I do not mean theistic personalism – a Personal God means nothing else than that He is endowed with intelligence and free-will.) But hopefully the above has moved the needle on your acceptance of the Fifth Way at least a little.

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  126. dguller,

    “The different sense is because it is not just referring to an act of existence anymore, but rather to different modes of being. Now, it is true that an act of existence is necessarily connected to a mode of being, but that doesn’t mean that they cannot be distinguished as having different referents. In Thomism, all created beings are necessarily connected to God, but it certainly makes sense to say that “created being” has a different referent from “God”.”

    First, the term never refers to a mode of being. The term always refers to the referent which has a mode of being. In both predications the term has a referent which has a mode of being, but the term in both predications never refers to the mode of being.
    Second, you are missing out on the final causality of things. That a being has a mode of being is not the same kind of connection that God has in relation to created beings. The former is essential, the latter is not. Of course all four parties here can be distinguished from one another, but the former two cannot exist apart from one another while God certainly could exist without us. This means that while it might be changing contexts to talk about God and then His creatures, it is not changing context to talk about the principles that make up an inherent teleological unity.

    “Then how do we talk about the mode of being unless we use words that refer to the mode of being?”

    We aren't analyzing the language about mode of being but only the term in question. To do this is nothing but changing the original subject of the analogical predication. This is extremely important. We aren't analyzing how we can talk about analogical predication, rather, we are analyzing the use of a term in analogical predication.

    “I agree that only mental representations, such as terms, can refer to anything. That means that individually existing entities, such as chairs or tables, do not refer, but only exist.”

    Then this seals the deal that you are not confusing a principle with its term, and instead, are confusing the subject of analogical predication.

    (continued)

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  127. (continued)

    “But sure, I can see how my comments could be construed as you interpreted, which I agree, is totally ridiculous. ;)”

    I thought as much after I wrote it, but I thought it was still worth putting up. Good, your position isn't totally crazy.

    “First, what does “sub-univocal” mean? Is this a term that Aquinas has ever used?”

    No, I don't believe he did use such a term. I was trying to use dguller speak. It corresponds to any subset of principles that are used in predication.

    “Second, if “there is some principle extremely broadly defined that is the same between us and God”, then why can’t we say that it is univocal? It uses the same term, has the same sense, and has the same referent, which meets our criteria of univocality.”

    Because this some principle extremely broadly defined doesn't have a sense or referent, because it is a principle and not a term. If you turn it into a term you are then changing the subject of the original predication. And since univocality is a linguistic tool, it doesn't work on principles. So its either that univocality doesn't apply or you are changing the subject.

    “As such, the Morning Star and the Evening Star contains aspects that have different referents when you are using the context of how Venus appears in the morning and in the evening. And that is why they have different senses, too.”

    The referent is still metaphysically the same, regardless of how it appears to us. It's not a phenomenological evaluation but a metaphysical one that is essential to univocal and analogical predication.

    ““Partially indeterminate” presupposes some part that is determinate. What is determinate in our concept of God that is identical in our concept of human beings?”

    Or rather you mean what is identical in our human concepts of things with that of God. Again, it is sub-univocal and sub-conceptual, and therefore, we cannot say that it is univocal without neglected the mode of our apprehension.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  128. Jack:

    There are countless examples justifying the Fifth Way. Any adaptation of means to ends found in nature, whether inorganic or animate, serves as such. ‘Means’ here means a cause with an action that has been determined in view of a particular result. I suppose we could sub in finality for adaptation...ends without losing anything.

    The issue is not teleology or final causation, which is present everywhere, but rather how this is possible. So, just pointing to examples of teleology, and claiming that this proves your point is largely irrelevant. You need a further argument to demonstrate that the only possible explanation of thus abundance of teleology is a divine intellect.

    Actually most summaries start like this: the adaptation of means to ends is an evident sign of intelligent cause

    And this is exactly what must be established. That is why it begs the question. The issue is how one goes from teleology in nature to a divine intellect. The only evidence for this position is how human beings make artifacts, i.e. by holding the final end in their minds, and then proceeding to build it in reality through a series of causal events. Certainly, this tells us a lot about human beings, but the next step is to argue that this must be how God does it.

    The fallacy is supposing that just because one group does things one way necessarily implies that other groups must do things the same way. It would be like arguing that some cultures write from left to right as a solution to how to start their sentences, and therefore, all cultures must write from left to right. Obviously, there are cultures that write from right to left (e.g. Hebrew, Arabic). So, this argument is fallacious, because there are instances where it is invalid.

    It then proceeds: nature offers instances of the adaptation of means to ends; hence it follows that nature is the work of an intelligent cause. Where’s the question-begging circularity in that?

    Because it assumes that all instances of teleology necessitate an intellect to sustain them. This has not been proven, but only assumed, and thus the conclusion of a divine intellect is question begging. It assumes that which it was supposed to prove. Honestly, it’s like arguing that science works well to explain the natural world, and thus is the only method to know anything at all. It is the same type of argument. Surely, you wouldn’t accept the science argument, and thus you shouldn’t accept the Fifth Way. And why? Because the science argument just assumes that what works in one scenario necessarily works in all scenarios, which is something that needs additional proof to justify.

    One, which has appeal given the genesis of this conversation, is an immediate deduction from the principle of contradiction (or LNC). For a means to be determined by an end that does not yet exist would violate the LNC as it would be to assert that nonbeing can produce being; so the end, if it does not exist in the real order, must exist at least in so far as it determines the means, in the ideal order. You might be persuaded by a Third Realm, but for Aristotelians we have “things” and “thoughts.”

    If Aristotle is allowed to divide being into act and potency to avoid paradoxes, then why can’t a further division of being be permitted in which ends are less real than act, but are more real than potency? If you want to call this a “Third Realm”, then so be it, but I don’t see how you can permit Aristotle a tool to use, and then prohibit its use by others.

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  129. As you clearly agree, only an intelligence has the power to apprehend the relation of one thing to another. So again we see final ends depend on intelligence.

    Even if an intelligence is required to apprehend relations in reality, then it does not follow that an intelligence is requires to sustain relations in reality. Eyes are required to apprehend visual information about the world, but it does not follow that they sustain or cause that visual information.

    you had shown only the fallacious nature of your misreading of the Fifth Way, you hadn’t offered a single alternative to a solution that you asserted was at best only one among many

    I don’t have to offer a single alternative to show an argument is fallacious. And with regards to the Fifth Way, it starts with the innate teleology in nature, asks how this is possible, draws an analogy between the human ability to create artifacts as one solution to how teleology is possible, and then concludes that this must be how God does it.

    There is a missing step in this argument in which one must argue that the human method is the only method without begging the question. It is ultimately an argument from analogy, assuming that God must have an intellect similar to humans, which would explain teleology in nature. However, all arguments from analogy are question begging, because they simply assume that two things share a common property, but further proof is necessary to show that this is the case.

    It would be like observing birds flying and concluding that wings are necessary for flight, because that is all we have experienced. Then you see something flying in the sky in the distance, and concluding that, if it is flying, then it must have wings, because that is the sum total of your experience with flying things. And you cannot possibly imagine any other way for something to fly. However, it is a helicopter that has no wings at all! So, you see, this type of argument from analogy is not a good argument, which makes it unlike the First to Third arguments, which are deductive, and quite good.

    The Fifth Way is only as good as the analogy between God and man. If this analogy is good, and God, in fact, has an intellect like humans, then the analogy is good, because there is a shared “something” (i.e. intellect) between God and humans. However, that has to be demonstrated prior to the analogy, and cannot just depend upon the analogy. (Similarly, the argument about wings would have to first demonstrate that all flying things have wings before being sound.)That is why I said it would be circular and question begging, because it simply assumes what it is supposed to be demonstrating, i.e. that all instances of teleology necessitate an intellect sustaining them, when this has to be proven by deductive argument.

    Do not assume the principle that all instances of teleology necessarily require an intellect to sustain them. Prove it. All you have is the human ability to make artifacts. You then have to demonstrate that this is the only way for teleology to be possible without just assuming that this is the only way. My contention is that you cannot do so without begging the question.

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  130. @dguller

    >You avoid this by acknowledging that there are different types of being, i.e. actual being and potential being, which are both distinct from non-being.

    Actually, (stop me before I pun again!) Potency and Act divide being in such a way that whatever is, is either pure act, or of necessity it is composed of potency and act as primary and intrinsic principles.

    That is Aquinas' first thesis(out of 24). Aquinas has no concept of a Being that is pure potency. That is an oxymoron in his thought.

    It doesn't have anything to Parmidedes either.

    Carry on. Don't mind me.

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  131. Michael:

    First, the term never refers to a mode of being. The term always refers to the referent which has a mode of being. In both predications the term has a referent which has a mode of being, but the term in both predications never refers to the mode of being.


    If the term refers only to the entity that has an act of existence, then how does it have different senses? If the term only refers to a single referent in both sentences, then where do the differences that make up different senses even come in? And if there aren’t different senses, then is that because there is a single sense, or no sense at all?

    Second, you are missing out on the final causality of things. That a being has a mode of being is not the same kind of connection that God has in relation to created beings. The former is essential, the latter is not. Of course all four parties here can be distinguished from one another, but the former two cannot exist apart from one another while God certainly could exist without us. This means that while it might be changing contexts to talk about God and then His creatures, it is not changing context to talk about the principles that make up an inherent teleological unity.

    The point is that even if X depends upon Y for its coherence, it does not follow that we cannot distinguish between X and Y. And if we can distinguish between X and Y, then X and Y have different senses and/or referents.

    We aren't analyzing the language about mode of being but only the term in question. To do this is nothing but changing the original subject of the analogical predication. This is extremely important. We aren't analyzing how we can talk about analogical predication, rather, we are analyzing the use of a term in analogical predication.


    The “term in question” either refers to an act of existence or mode of being, which are related, but distinct, in the ways that I have elucidated earlier. If the term refers to an act of existence, then that should be the context, and thus the term has a single sense and referent in both sentences. If the term refers to a mode of being, then that should be the context, and thus the term has different senses and referents. Furthermore, I don’t see how you can analyze “the use of a term in analogical predication” without “analyzing how we can talk about analogical predication”. They both belong to a meta-level of analysis of analogical predication.

    Then this seals the deal that you are not confusing a principle with its term, and instead, are confusing the subject of analogical predication.

    But, a predicate can become a subject. See my “green” example in an earlier comment. In that case, I don’t understand how your objection is relevant. In order to talk about a predicate, you must turn it into a subject, and if you say that this is an illegitimate move, then you also are saying that we can never talk about a predicate at all!

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  132. No, I don't believe he did use such a term. I was trying to use dguller speak. It corresponds to any subset of principles that are used in predication.

    Then what relevance does it have? Take the following two sentences: (a) The grass is green; and (b) The car is green. “Green” is univocal in both (a) and (b). Green is a color, as well, and so we can further say that (a*) The grass is a color; and (b*) The car is a color. In that case, “a color” is univocal between (a*) and (b*). Would you say that “a color” is sub-univocal? No, it is univocal, at that level of analysis. In other words, all instances of sub-univocality are also univocal, and thus it is a distinction without a difference.

    Because this some principle extremely broadly defined doesn't have a sense or referent, because it is a principle and not a term. If you turn it into a term you are then changing the subject of the original predication.

    When I rationally analyze a predicate, then I am making that predicate a subject. This does not mean that I am changing the subject, because the subject remains the predicate, but rather am changing the predicate into a subject, because this is necessary in order to rationally analyze it at all! If you have any other way to focus attention upon a predicate without turning it into a subject, then I’m all ears.

    And since univocality is a linguistic tool, it doesn't work on principles. So its either that univocality doesn't apply or you are changing the subject.

    It does work when we are talking about principles, which inevitably involves the usage of terms, which have senses and/or referents. And whenever we use terms, then they can be univocal, equivocal, or analogous, when they are used in more than one sentence. Perhaps you want to talk about the ontological status of existing entities without actually using any terms or words at all? Once you start talking about something, and this is the subject of this discussion, then you automatically bring linguistic attributes, such as sense and referent, into the equation. We are not talking about ontology per se, but about language about reality. You want to talk about reality, which is different from talking about how we talk about reality. The latter is the subject of this discussion, not the former.

    The referent is still metaphysically the same, regardless of how it appears to us. It's not a phenomenological evaluation but a metaphysical one that is essential to univocal and analogical predication.

    But univocal and analogical predication is rooted in the terms that we use, which are oriented towards metaphysical referents. You want to separate the two when this is impossible. Remember, we are talking about talking about things, and you cannot talk about how we talk about things while excluding language and only including things. And since language provides us with a perspective from which things appear to us, it is absolutely necessary to include sense, which is simply a linguistic version of perspective.

    Or rather you mean what is identical in our human concepts of things with that of God. Again, it is sub-univocal and sub-conceptual, and therefore, we cannot say that it is univocal without neglected the mode of our apprehension.

    First, sub-univocal is still univocal, but simply at a deeper level of analysis.

    Second, sub-conceptual is still conceptual, but at a deeper level of analysis.

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  133. Third, I do not see the difference between something “determinate in our concept of God that is identical in our concept of human beings” and “what is identical in our human concepts of things with that of God”. Sure, the latter includes things as intermediaries between humans and God, but there is still “something” that is identical and present in human beings, things, and God. This is true by virtue of the principle of proportionate causality. And that results in my statement, but without the intermediary.

    So, the question still remains. What is determinate in our concept of God that is identical in our concept of human beings? As I wrote above: “If there is nothing determinate in this case, then it is not “partially indeterminate”, but rather totally indeterminate. If there is something determinate in this case, then why can’t this determinate “something” be called “univocal” between God and human beings?” I would only add the “univocal” can only be applied to the terms that we use to talk about this determinate “something”, and not to the “something” itself.

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  134. dguller

    A couple of quick replies re: the Fifth Way.

    DGULLER: And this is exactly what must be established. That is why it begs the question.

    ME: No, you’re getting this wrong and I’m not sure how.

    The structure of all Aquinas’s Five Ways is P exists; P is being caused by Q; therefore Q exists. P here is “evidence of teleology”, and Q is “intelligence.”

    If you agree (as you say you do) that teleology, final causation, is present everywhere, then the rest of the argument follows. I gave you two ways of establishing P (Teleology) is being caused by Q (Intelligence) – one an immediate deduction from the Law of Non-Contradiction, the other a variation on an argument you yourself gave when it supported (or so you thought)your dispute with Aquinas on analogy. So let’s see how you respond?

    DGULLER: If Aristotle is allowed to divide being into act and potency to avoid paradoxes, then why can’t a further division of being be permitted in which ends are less real than act, but are more real than potency?

    ME: Really, what paradox? A paradox is not just an outcome that you, dguller, dislike. An end is influencing a means but doesn’t yet exist in the real order and so *must* exist in the ideal order. A perfectly reasonable conclusion and of course you can try what you like to escape it (posit a third order, a fourth, a pink one) but for what reason!? The real and the ideal are established quite separately from this argument. Aristotle could point to his justifications for potency and act; can you do the same? You can’t even show that the argument fails without egregiously misreading it.

    And your answer to the second approach, the one blessed with the dguller seal of approval when you could seize it up as a bludgeon against Aquinas's analogy?

    DGULLER: Even if an intelligence is required to apprehend relations in reality, then it does not follow that an intelligence is requires to sustain relations in reality. (emphasis in original)

    ME: Well now you’re just arguing against yourself. If you truly believed that “it does not follow that an intelligence is requires to sustain relations in reality” then I can’t imagine what you meant when you said: “As such, sense has nothing to do with how beings exist in the universe when we are not thinking about them” (emphasis mine). You seem to be acknowledging that these types of “conceptual connections” (ie, relations), as mental representations, do require an act of thought to sustain them. And when you talk about “relations in reality” you’re either confusing thoughts with things (again!), or you were just trying to fob us off when you asserted “sense has nothing to do with how beings exist in the universe.”

    Whatever. I’ve been admonished about speculating on your motives and as you’re clearly arguing against yourself I’ll wait and see how reason wins out.

    What I can see is that you don’t really seem all that serious in thinking about this. I sketched two ways of establishing teleology depending on intelligence in two ways and all you can say is that the argument infers from human action to the Divine. I don’t think any fair reading of the Fifth Way would conclude that.

    (for the avoidance of doubt: relations are not things, they're thoughts - does that make you rethink your objection to the second approach?)

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  135. Jack:

    Really, what paradox? A paradox is not just an outcome that you, dguller, dislike.

    The paradox I was talking about was Parmenides’ aporias that change is impossible, despite what our senses demonstrate, because reason demonstrates that our senses must be deceiving us in this regard. If there is only being and non-being, then change is impossible, because change would mean that non-being becomes being, which is impossible, and that being is caused to change by something else, and the other other thing is non-being, which cannot cause anything. Aristotle’s solution was to divide being into actual being and potential being, and thus change does not require non-being to being, but potential being to actual being, which means that change is possible after all.

    An end is influencing a means but doesn’t yet exist in the real order and so *must* exist in the ideal order. A perfectly reasonable conclusion and of course you can try what you like to escape it (posit a third order, a fourth, a pink one) but for what reason!? The real and the ideal are established quite separately from this argument. Aristotle could point to his justifications for potency and act; can you do the same? You can’t even show that the argument fails without egregiously misreading it.

    There are two possibilities here. First, that there is a cosmic intellect that contains the final causes, which are guiding the activity of contingent beings in the universe. Second, that final causes have a status of being between act and potency, much like potency has a status of being between act and non-being. For the Fifth Way to be deductive, then you have to show that the second option is impossible. Otherwise, you are making an inductive and probabilistic argument, which Feser says is not what metaphysical arguments are at all. He writes that they are “all-or-nothing” (TLS, p. 82), and that their conclusions “follow necessarily” (TLS, p. 83), because the “empirical starting points are always so general that there is no serious doubt of their truth” (TLS, p. 83). So, unless you can show that the second option is impossible, not just improbable, then you are not using a metaphysical argument, but rather a scientific and probabilistic argument.

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  136. Well now you’re just arguing against yourself. If you truly believed that “it does not follow that an intelligence is requires to sustain relations in reality” then I can’t imagine what you meant when you said: “As such, sense has nothing to do with how beings exist in the universe when we are not thinking about them” (emphasis mine). You seem to be acknowledging that these types of “conceptual connections” (ie, relations), as mental representations, do require an act of thought to sustain them. And when you talk about “relations in reality” you’re either confusing thoughts with things (again!), or you were just trying to fob us off when you asserted “sense has nothing to do with how beings exist in the universe.”

    On the one hand, I have written that “sense” only applies to our mental representations, because they are essentially a type of perspective. A dog does not make sense, but our ideas about a dog can make sense. Furthermore, I have argued that sense is essentially a type of intellectual perspective, which necessarily requires an intellect that is mentally observing mental representations from a particular perspective. In that case, mental representations that make sense do not exist in reality in the same way that dogs do, because a dog will exist even if no-one is thinking about one, but a mental representation requires a mind.

    On the other hand, relations hold independent of a perceiver or conscious mind. It is true that the universe is older than the planet earth, even if there were no mind thinking it. So, I think that you have confused sense with relation. The former depends upon the latter for their grounding, much like our words depend upon the world for their grounding. No-one would argue if words do not exist, then the world cannot exist, and thus you should not argue that if senses do not exist, then relations cannot exist, either.

    I hope that helps to clear up any confusion.

    What I can see is that you don’t really seem all that serious in thinking about this. I sketched two ways of establishing teleology depending on intelligence in two ways and all you can say is that the argument infers from human action to the Divine. I don’t think any fair reading of the Fifth Way would conclude that.

    I know that you have offered two lines of arguments to support the major premise in the Fifth Way. Unfortunately, neither of them are sound, and thus I will have to persist in my belief that the Fifth Way is not a sound argument.

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  137. dguller

    Re: analogy

    DGULLER: If there is something determinate in this case, then why can’t this determinate “something” be called “univocal” between God and human beings?”

    ME: I'm afraid I'm not up on US coinage but I understand that a penny is smaller than a quarter?

    If so, you couldn't fit a quarter into a slot sized for a penny. Conceptually there's a portion of the quarter, a determinate volume, that could fit into the slot, but in reality? That volume doesn't exist, just the larger whole. And that whole quarter won't go. Even if you're just talking about thoughts, and not reality, then the proportional relationship of that volume to the penny is different than to the quarter. There's no part or principle or whatever of a quarter that's univocally the same as a penny (WRT fitting the slot).

    A term is univocal if its signification is precisely the same in regard of all the subjects of which it is predicated.

    Whatever 'thing' you can conceive that some creature might share with The Creator it won't, in reality or in your concept, be infinite, and/or perfect, and/or necessary, and/or absolute, and/or etc. So its signification cannot be precisely the same. As Michael has mentioned elsewhere, this is not some ad hoc language specifically for God (though God is unique); this is also true of the Transcendentals (I believe Michael gave the example of Being, but I can't find it now). Every thing shares being, but every thing's being is exactly its being. End of story.

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  138. dguller

    DGULLER: relations hold independent of a perceiver or conscious mind.

    ME: Nonsense. Your example only holds true because there is a Mind (the one you keep denying) that comprehends all things. In the (impossible) hypothesis of no minds, there could not be such a thing as truth.

    Also if relations are not thoughts, but things existing independently of any mind, what sort of thing are they? What is their ontological status? Where do they exist? Give me something, anything that clues me in to their substance, please.

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  139. Apologies, the last post was from me.

    My friend, David, had logged in to check his gmail in the wait between posts going up.

    Sorry for any confusion.

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  140. DGULLER: So, unless you can show that the second option is impossible, not just improbable, then you are not using a metaphysical argument

    ME: And you accuse the Fifth Way of question-begging? Nevermind that other arguments support the Fifth Way’s conclusion of a cosmic intellect. You have literally made up your own metaphysics to ‘show’ there might be a different answer to the one conclusion that falls out of the agreed principles and premises. No hint of necessity, and no justification for it, just the bald assertion “There are two possibilities here.”

    Breathtaking.

    I’m aware the contradictions of Parmenides and Heraclitus were the paradox that you were talking about. The thrust of my question was to point out that Aristotle was solving actual problem. You’re just looking for a way out.

    Anyway, Aristotle has already proven your second option is impossible. I emphasize the "only"s in the quote below to point out there’s no room (and as William of Ockham would already have noted, no necessity) for your second option.

    “Aristotle provided rational justifications for act and potency in really existing beings He showed: (1) that the observation and analysis of motion or change is noncontradictory only when being is constituted of act and potency; (2) that the principle of non-contradiction can be truly binding in the real world only if the world has a structure of act and potency; (3) we can call upon the common sense experience of those who for various theoretical reasons rejected the composition of being of act and potency, as did the authors of the Megarian school.

    In particular in (2) he showed that if our cognition is realistic, namely if the contents of our cognition depend upon being, then both the mobilistic monism of Heraclitus and the radical immobilism of Parmenides are contrary to the observed state of things (namely with the fact that we affirm the determinants of being despite the position of mobilism, and we affirm potentiality and motion), and they are contrary to to the principle of noncontradiction. If Parmideanism were true, that “only one being exists”, then necessarily man and non-man would be the same. This is an absurdity. If only mobilism were true, then by the same token we would have to reject the principle of non-contradiction, since then everything would be everything and there would be no distinctions in things. If we hold to the principle of noncontradiction and reject both of these radically monistic theories, we should acknowledge that there is both determination (act) and motion or tranformation (potency) in things.”


    As I said, he took a real paradox and reasoned it away, giving justification why things must be that way and no other (which is bad news for your, “Why can’t I just invent another division of being when I choose to?” approach)

    Now - Where is the problem you seek to solve with you partial-act/potency distinction? I ask again, but more explicitly: where is the paradox or contradiction in final ends existing only in an intellect?

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  141. Jack:

    If so, you couldn't fit a quarter into a slot sized for a penny. Conceptually there's a portion of the quarter, a determinate volume, that could fit into the slot, but in reality? That volume doesn't exist, just the larger whole. And that whole quarter won't go. Even if you're just talking about thoughts, and not reality, then the proportional relationship of that volume to the penny is different than to the quarter.

    I don’t understand. Are you saying that the volume of a penny does not exist in the volume of a quarter in reality? Does that mean that I cannot cut the shape of a penny out of a quarter?

    There's no part or principle or whatever of a quarter that's univocally the same as a penny (WRT fitting the slot).

    Take the following two sentences:

    (1) A penny can fit in a slot
    (2) A quarter can fit in a slot

    Are you saying that “fit in a slot” is not univocal between (1) and (2)? The size of the slots is different in (1) and (2), but what it means to fit in a slot means the same thing, i.e. you slide a coin into a slit-like opening and the coin passes through the opening without restriction.

    A term is univocal if its signification is precisely the same in regard of all the subjects of which it is predicated.

    In other words, if the terms have the same referent, irrespective of their senses, then the terms have a univocal meaning. That’s fine. Then why can’t divine power and human power, for example, both refer to the same referent, i.e. power? The kind of power is different between God and humans, but it is still power, much like the kind of power is different when it is nuclear or electromagnetic, but they are both examples of power. Even saying that God’s power is infinite and perfect and human power is finite and imperfect still just adds qualifiers to power.

    Whatever 'thing' you can conceive that some creature might share with The Creator it won't, in reality or in your concept, be infinite, and/or perfect, and/or necessary, and/or absolute, and/or etc. So its signification cannot be precisely the same.

    It depends upon the context. In the context of focusing upon the qualifiers of something, then “infinite X” has a different referent from “finite X”, because in the former X is infinite and in the latter X is finite, which are different. However, when you are focusing something, irrespective of its qualifiers, then there is a single referent, because you are focusing upon what “infinite X” and “finite X” have in common, i.e. “X”, which has a single referent, i.e. X. Again, context is important.

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  142. Jack:

    Nonsense. Your example only holds true because there is a Mind (the one you keep denying) that comprehends all things. In the (impossible) hypothesis of no minds, there could not be such a thing as truth.

    It depends upon how you define “truth”. If “truth” is simply a correspondence between a proposition and a state of affairs, then there is no truth without propositions, and there are no propositions without an intellect. If “truth” is the degree to which an entity corresponds to its ideal form, then truth exists independently of mind, because things exist in varying degrees of achieving their telos in reality, whether someone is thinking about them or not. So, it depends upon your definition of “truth”.

    Also if relations are not thoughts, but things existing independently of any mind, what sort of thing are they? What is their ontological status? Where do they exist? Give me something, anything that clues me in to their substance, please.

    Relations are neither things nor thoughts, but something else entirely. Hell, I would just say that there are things, thoughts, and relations as distinct phenomena. I see no need to reduce all reality to either things or thoughts. If Aristotle was allowed to add potential being to actual being and non-being without any complaint from anyone, but as a necessary addition to the schema of ontology, then I don’t see why his addition is the Last Addition.

    Also, if you are in the mood to answer detailed questions about metaphysics, then perhaps you can explain to me how all forms can exist in a divine intellect that is simple and without any parts or components.

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  143. Jack:

    And you accuse the Fifth Way of question-begging? Nevermind that other arguments support the Fifth Way’s conclusion of a cosmic intellect. You have literally made up your own metaphysics to ‘show’ there might be a different answer to the one conclusion that falls out of the agreed principles and premises. No hint of necessity, and no justification for it, just the bald assertion “There are two possibilities here.”

    I don’t see any argument showing my second possibility is impossible, but only a complaint that I have come up with a new idea. Furthermore, you ignore that I have justified my position by simply repeating what Aristotle has already done, i.e. classify reality into different components to account for our observations. Can you explain why his division is necessary correct, and mine necessarily incorrect?

    The thrust of my question was to point out that Aristotle was solving actual problem. You’re just looking for a way out.

    And a follow of Parmenides could say that same thing about Aristotle by saying, “You’re just looking for a way out” of the reality of no change. Your argument is just as bad.

    Anyway, Aristotle has already proven your second option is impossible. I emphasize the "only"s in the quote below to point out there’s no room (and as William of Ockham would already have noted, no necessity) for your second option.

    I am not saying that there is necessity for my second option. That is why I called it a “possibility”, and not a “necessity”. You have no argument against my inclusion of final causes as a kind of being between actual being and potential being, much like potential being is intermediate between actual being and non-being. In fact, why does being have to have clear-cut divisions at all? Why can’t it have grey areas in which something does not fit nicely into act and potency, but has degrees of both? There are many areas of knowledge in which there are fuzzy and indeterminate borders and divisions between concepts, and I wonder if being could be in the same category.

    that the observation and analysis of motion or change is noncontradictory only when being is constituted of act and potency

    Motion or change is also non-contradictory if being is constituted by act, potency, and an intermediate form of being that consists of final causes, which have characteristics of actual being by virtue of being able to act upon beings, and potential being by virtue of not being fully present at the start of a causal sequence. I don’t see any contradiction here unless you assume that act and potency are the only possibilities here.

    As I said, he took a real paradox and reasoned it away, giving justification why things must be that way and no other (which is bad news for your, “Why can’t I just invent another division of being when I choose to?” approach)

    Apparently, he didn’t.

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  144. Now - Where is the problem you seek to solve with you partial-act/potency distinction? I ask again, but more explicitly: where is the paradox or contradiction in final ends existing only in an intellect?

    There is no paradox in final ends existing only in an intellect. I am not saying that it is an incoherent or contradictory concept. However, it does not follow that if something is not impossible, then it must be necessary. It could only be possible instead, which is what I believe is true about this idea. It is certainly possible, and would explain the paradox of how final ends can be present at the beginning of a causal sequence to guide it towards its telos. That is the paradox in need of resolution. Certainly, an intellect is one solution, but another possible solution is to further subdivide being into act, potency, and telos, which is neither act nor potency, but something else altogether. Other than the fact that this is a new idea, do you have any reason to reject it? And even if my motives for proposing this idea are completely sinister and intransigent, it does not follow that the idea is false, because that would commit the genetic fallacy.

    So, I stand by my contention that the human ability to keep plans in mind while making artifacts is not necessarily the only way for final ends to be present at the start of a causal sequence. And even if I did not have another possibility in mind, then it still doesn’t follow that just because humans do things this way, then it must be the only way, and thus God must do so, as well. That is just a bad argument.

    And your argument that uses the LNC presupposes that the only division in being is between act and potency. It does not work if there is a further division, as I am contending is possible. Remember, Aristotle added potential being to actual being and non-being in order to avoid the paradox of how change is possible if there is only being and non-being. Similarly, I am adding a type of being between act and potency to avoid the paradox of how final causation is possible if it is neither act nor potency, but something else. Again, if Aristotle is allowed to divide being to avoid a paradox, then why am I not allowed to do the same? And it is not good enough to refute this idea by saying that there is another explanation that also can resolve this paradox. Who says that there must be only one possible solution to any paradox?

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  145. dguller

    I'm finding your positions increasingly bizarre.

    DGULLER: It depends upon how you define “truth”. If “truth” is simply a correspondence between a proposition and a state of affairs, then there is no truth without propositions, and there are no propositions without an intellect. If “truth” is the degree to which an entity corresponds to its ideal form, then truth exists independently of mind, because things exist in varying degrees of achieving their telos in reality, whether someone is thinking about them or not. So, it depends upon your definition of “truth”.

    ME: no, it really doesn’t depend. Because (a) when you talk of correspondence to “ideal form” I can only ask what is this “ideal form” that exists in the absence of all intellect? And (b) your example was explicitly a proposition – I quote: “It is true that the universe is older than the planet earth, even if there were no mind thinking it.” Rather than being argumentative deal with the fact that, like propositions, relations require intellect. Oh right, now relations aren’t mental – they’re a magical type of “entity” that can be whatever you need it to be to avoid admitting mind.

    Don’t worry I won’t ask you to justify it. That’s so Greek and constricting. Because it’s clear from what your next quote that you think Aristotle’s moderate realism is all merely a protocol:

    DGULLER: If Aristotle was allowed to add potential being to actual being and non-being without any complaint from anyone, but as a necessary addition to the schema of ontology, then I don’t see why his addition is the Last Addition.

    ME: I’ve no doubt many people complained. But Aristotle justified his moves, and as you say they were necessary. What’s necessary about relations being their own type of being? What’s necessary about final ends having their own kind of being? Absolutely nothing. Oh, don’t forget you said that propositions depended on intellect – you should give them their own sort of being too! Just in case a Personal God sneaks in that route.

    Pull these kind of ad hoc moves if you want to, but recognize you’ve undermined any complaint about Aquinas inventing ad hoc language for talking about God. He didn’t, of course, but you clearly wouldn’t have a problem with it even if he had.

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  146. dguller,

    “If the term refers only to the entity that has an act of existence, then how does it have different senses? If the term only refers to a single referent in both sentences, then where do the differences that make up different senses even come in?

    First, in my example, the term refers to an act of existence.
    Second, the differences come in when one metaphysically evaluates the referent, which has a mode of being. The term is a pointer and is not to be confused with the concept or the referent, it does not hold all the conceptual baggage that concepts do.

    “The point is that even if X depends upon Y for its coherence, it does not follow that we cannot distinguish between X and Y. And if we can distinguish between X and Y, then X and Y have different senses and/or referents.”

    First, as you pointed out before, X and Y don't have senses or referents unless one talks about them. And second, so what. Just cause one can make distinctions doesn't mean that those distinctions are relevant.

    “The “term in question” either refers to an act of existence or mode of being, which are related, but distinct, in the ways that I have elucidated earlier.”

    Nope. The referent has a mode of being (part). The term only points to the referent (whole).

    “Furthermore, I don’t see how you can analyze “the use of a term in analogical predication” without “analyzing how we can talk about analogical predication”. They both belong to a meta-level of analysis of analogical predication.”

    When one engages in logical argumentation, does one necessarily have to know the foundations of reason? If instead of evaluating an argument you brought before me, if I were to start talking about the intricacies of the principle of non-contradiction, I wouldn't be addressing your argument.

    “But, a predicate can become a subject. See my “green” example in an earlier comment. In that case, I don’t understand how your objection is relevant. In order to talk about a predicate, you must turn it into a subject, and if you say that this is an illegitimate move, then you also are saying that we can never talk about a predicate at all!”

    First, let's be clear that when I say subject I am not using it in the linguistic component of a sentence sense. I could say, 'dogs are green', and then say, 'green is a nice color'... but that is not what I am getting at. When one analyzes a specific term, evaluates its principles... to bring another term to evaluate its analogical or univocal nature is changing the focus (subject). Hopefully if you stick to my concrete example you will start to see this.

    (continued)

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  147. (continued)

    “Take the following two sentences: (a) The grass is green; and (b) The car is green. “Green” is univocal in both (a) and (b). Green is a color, as well, and so we can further say that (a*) The grass is a color; and (b*) The car is a color. In that case, “a color” is univocal between (a*) and (b*). Would you say that “a color” is sub-univocal? No, it is univocal, at that level of analysis. In other words, all instances of sub-univocality are also univocal, and thus it is a distinction without a difference.”

    This is really not pertinent to the discussion. You know that I use the principles of referent and sense to evaluate a term. You are not engaging with the principles, therefore, you don't have anything that could even be close to being called “sub-univocal”. But ultimately you are correct. It is a silly term. I'm not using it anymore.

    “When I rationally analyze a predicate, then I am making that predicate a subject. This does not mean that I am changing the subject, because the subject remains the predicate, but rather am changing the predicate into a subject, because this is necessary in order to rationally analyze it at all! If you have any other way to focus attention upon a predicate without turning it into a subject, then I’m all ears.”

    This is no problem. It's when you keep doing this multiple times in the same analyzation of the original term that gets you into trouble by changing the focus.

    “You want to talk about reality, which is different from talking about how we talk about reality. The latter is the subject of this discussion, not the former.”

    “So, the question still remains. What is determinate in our concept of God that is identical in our concept of human beings?”

    Keep things more concrete and it will blow some of this smoke away. The term “good” applied to both God and Man. The referent is the identical principle. It is determinate to our understanding.

    “If there is something determinate in this case, then why can’t this determinate “something” be called “univocal” between God and human beings?”

    Because univocality cannot be divorced from our mode of apprehension.

    Basically, you still don't have the details of sense down yet. For some reason you still want to keep using your definitions. You're not going to learn much if you refuse to go outside of your box and play in Aquinas' sandbox.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  148. dguller,

    "You have no argument against my inclusion of final causes as a kind of being between actual being and potential being..."

    Jack is right, this position is off the deep end and about as justified as denying the LNC. Why? Because Aristotle is subdividing being according to necessity and mutual exclusion. If you want to further subdivide being, your new category must fall under one of Aristotle's: so where does it fall?

    Really, I think this new exchange is very telling. You are very light on Aristotelian metaphysics. It does not surprise me the difficulty you are having with Aquinas' analysis of predication.

    Of course, by all means let the conversation continue, but supplemental sources will be vital. Does anyone have some good metaphysics books to recommend? Again?

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  149. Jack:

    no, it really doesn’t depend. Because (a) when you talk of correspondence to “ideal form” I can only ask what is this “ideal form” that exists in the absence of all intellect?

    It exists as a final cause, which is an intermediate category of being in between actual being and potential being, and which consists of aspects of both.

    And (b) your example was explicitly a proposition – I quote: “It is true that the universe is older than the planet earth, even if there were no mind thinking it.”

    Well, anything I say will consist of propositions being thought by a mind, and so do you expect me to defend a position by keeping silent and not thinking? And it is important to keep in mind the difference between a proposition and a state of affairs, even though in our language, they are expressed in the same way.

    Rather than being argumentative deal with the fact that, like propositions, relations require intellect. Oh right, now relations aren’t mental – they’re a magical type of “entity” that can be whatever you need it to be to avoid admitting mind.

    And a supporter of Parmenides can say the same thing: “Oh right, now potential being is somehow real – it’s a magical type of “entity” that can be whatever you need it to be to avoid admitting the impossibility of change”. I doubt that you would find that line of argument compelling.

    I’ve no doubt many people complained. But Aristotle justified his moves, and as you say they were necessary.

    That is correct. He made a revision in order to account for the reality of change. There was a paradox, which he resolved by introducing a new category of being, i.e. potential being.

    What’s necessary about relations being their own type of being? What’s necessary about final ends having their own kind of being? Absolutely nothing.

    There is nothing necessary about it, but it is a possibility, like a divine intellect. You seem so invested in the need to have a divine intellect that you believe it to be the only possibility, but never demonstrating it to be so.

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  150. Oh, don’t forget you said that propositions depended on intellect – you should give them their own sort of being too! Just in case a Personal God sneaks in that route.

    Propositions do depend upon an intellect to formulate them, and thus require no special ontological status, but what they represent can be real independent of an intellect. There is the proposition that “it is raining”, and then there is the state of affairs where it is raining. The former must be in a mind, but the latter does not. I mean, words require an intellect, but does it follow that if there were no words, then there would be nothing that the words would have referred to?

    Pull these kind of ad hoc moves if you want to, but recognize you’ve undermined any complaint about Aquinas inventing ad hoc language for talking about God. He didn’t, of course, but you clearly wouldn’t have a problem with it even if he had.

    You have not explained how my solution to the paradox of final causes is necessarily impossible, given the fact that there is a precedent to modify ontological categories to resolve paradoxes in Aristotle’s practice. I mean, why is Aristotle allowed to revise ontological categories in order to resolve a paradox, but nobody else is allowed to? He justified his solution by the fact that it solved a paradox, which is exactly what I have done. Your only objection is that my solution weakens the case for a divine intellect, but so what? Why is the paramount importance of a rational argument to support that proposition?

    And I notice you did not answer my question about how God’s intellect can contain all forms, but be simple and without any parts or components. How exactly does this work? Oh? No explanation? It’s a mystery beyond human understanding? How very Greek.

    Or maybe you can answer an easier question, given Thomist principles. How exactly do forms get transferred from material entities to an immaterial intellect? I mean, this system is so thorough and comprehensive that it leaves no stone unturned, dries every tear, and explains everything completely, right? Or maybe, like all human constructs, it has benefits and strengths, but also limitations and weaknesses, which means that it is open to revision?

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  151. Michael:

    Second, the differences come in when one metaphysically evaluates the referent, which has a mode of being. The term is a pointer and is not to be confused with the concept or the referent, it does not hold all the conceptual baggage that concepts do.

    But when one “metaphysically evaluates the referent”, then one has changed the context from simply using a term to refer to something to metaphysically evaluating that “something”. These are different contexts. In one context, you are using a term to refer to something, and in another context, you are analyzing that “something” to better understand it. By analyzing the referent in this way, you are no longer just referring to it, but breaking it down and analyzing it into its components and implications, which necessarily brings other information into the process. And this additional information changes the referent, particular when you are focusing upon different aspects of the referent in question (i.e. from act of existence to mode of being).

    First, as you pointed out before, X and Y don't have senses or referents unless one talks about them.

    Which we are doing, and so they do have both.

    And second, so what. Just cause one can make distinctions doesn't mean that those distinctions are relevant.

    They are relevant when focusing upon what X and Y refer to. If X and Y are distinct, then they have different referents.

    Nope. The referent has a mode of being (part). The term only points to the referent (whole).

    Do the terms “act of existence” and “mode of existence” refer to the same referent?

    When one analyzes a specific term, evaluates its principles... to bring another term to evaluate its analogical or univocal nature is changing the focus (subject). Hopefully if you stick to my concrete example you will start to see this.

    Of course, it changes the subject, but that is only because the subject is now a particular aspect of the referent, and certainly there is no problem using a specific term to refer to that particular aspect of the referent. For example, say we are talking about the mode of being of some entity. Its mode of being is a combination of a particular degree of act and potency. If we wanted to focus upon its degree of actual being, then we would be using the term “degree of actual being”. Is this an illicit move, on your account? Can we not talk about the entity’s degree of actual being by using the term, “degree of actual being”? And if we can use such a term, then why can’t we assess this term for its analogical or univocal nature, when it is used in more than one sentence?

    But ultimately you are correct. It is a silly term. I'm not using it anymore.

    No worries. :)

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  152. This is no problem. It's when you keep doing this multiple times in the same analyzation of the original term that gets you into trouble by changing the focus.

    How many times can I do this before I get into “trouble”? I agree that one can lose sight of the forest for the trees, but both a distant and a near perspective can reveal important truths about a particular entity, and so it seems unreasonable to make limitations upon how closely we should look into things.

    The term “good” applied to both God and Man. The referent is the identical principle. It is determinate to our understanding.

    Let’s look at the following two sentences:

    (a) God is good.
    (b) Man is good.

    In both (a) and (b), “good” refers to “the degree to which a being maximizes actualization of its essence, and minimize its degree of potential being”. Does that make “good” univocal between (a) and (b)? Sure, God is “good” in that he is Pure Act, and thus has maximized the actualization of his essence without any degree of potential being, and man always has some potential being present, but that is just a difference in degree rather than kind, much like a perfect circle and an imperfectly drawn circle are both still circles.

    Because univocality cannot be divorced from our mode of apprehension.

    And I am not saying that it should. After all, our “mode of apprehension” includes our linguistic abilities, and thus the terms that we use. And as I have said, “univocal” is a property of linguistic terms, and not an ontological category in and of itself. So, when we are talking about the terms that we use in sentences, then those terms can be univocal.

    Anyway, your argument seems to be that there is “something” determinate between God and man, but that we cannot know what that “something” is, because of the limitations of our understanding. And since we cannot know it, it cannot be an object of thought, and thus cannot be something we can use a term to refer to, and thus cannot be “univocal” at all.

    But in that case, then doesn’t analogy also fall apart? I mean, doesn’t analogy also depend upon our mode of apprehension, and thus if it is limited, as you say, then we cannot understand the “partly the same” part of the analogy, either. And we cannot have an analogy without that part being there. And if you say that in this case we can understand the “something” that is partly the same between God and man, then how is this possible, given our limited understanding? And if our limited understanding does not act as a barrier in this case, then why should it stand as a barrier in the “univocal” case?

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  153. Michael:

    Also, what is Aquinas' definition of "sense"?

    Thanks.

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  154. Michael:

    Jack is right, this position is off the deep end and about as justified as denying the LNC. Why? Because Aristotle is subdividing being according to necessity and mutual exclusion.

    Exactly. It was necessary, because confining ontology to only being and non-being resulted in paradoxes, and thus an intermediate category had to be utilized, which combined features of being and non-being in order to resolve the paradox.

    Take the example of a block of ice. It has the potential to become melted into water. It is not a liquid while it is solid, and thus its potential is not really present. However, its potential to become a liquid is not nothingness, either, because from nothing, nothing comes. So, its potential is there (i.e. being), but also not there (i.e. non-being), which seems to be a clear contradiction. However, the contradiction is avoided, because potential being is accepted as an intermediate category between being and non-being, and thus something can be neither real nor unreal, which makes contradiction impossible. At the very least, potential being is very bizarre in and of itself.

    If you want to further subdivide being, your new category must fall under one of Aristotle's: so where does it fall?

    Just as Aristotle’s potential being did not fall under being or non-being, my new category does not fall under actual being or potential being, but rather is an intermediary between the two. Again, if you do not object to the odd category of potential being, then why object to admitting the possibility that final causes are some combination of actual being and potential being?

    Really, I think this new exchange is very telling. You are very light on Aristotelian metaphysics. It does not surprise me the difficulty you are having with Aquinas' analysis of predication.

    I’ve ordered a few books to help me here:

    Eleonore Stump’s Aquinas

    Christopher Shields’ Aristotle

    Gregory Rocca’s Speaking the Incomprehensible God: Thomas Aquinas on the Interplay of Positive and Negative Theology

    I hope they help!

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  155. dguller,

    “But when one “metaphysically evaluates the referent”, then one has changed the context from simply using a term to refer to something to metaphysically evaluating that “something”. These are different contexts. In one context, you are using a term to refer to something, and in another context, you are analyzing that “something” to better understand it. By analyzing the referent in this way, you are no longer just referring to it, but breaking it down and analyzing it into its components and implications, which necessarily brings other information into the process.”

    Yes, correct. Except that it really isn't changing the context since both referent and mode of being are always interrelated (you don't have one without the other in the real(AT) order). Or, if you insist that it is changing the context, that it actually matters—it doesn't.

    “And this additional information changes the referent, particular when you are focusing upon different aspects of the referent in question (i.e. from act of existence to mode of being).”

    No, incorrect. In my example the term is “real”. The referent of the term is an act of existence, a principle. The mode of being is how the referent is expressed in its existence, metaphysically (not subjective), another principle. No matter which aspect I evaluate, referent or mode of being (I need to evaluate both), it doesn't change that the term still points to the referent. Analogical or univocal analysis requires one to evaluate the principles of a term, not the terms used to describe those principles. Simple as that. The original term points to a referent, not to the words used to describe the principles of the original term.

    I'm not saying that you can't talk about the words used to describe the principles of a term and evaluate two predications of those words to see if it is an univocal or analogical predication. But I am saying if you try to do this, even once, you are changing the focus and thus the proper evaluation of what you originally set out to do.

    “Do the terms “act of existence” and “mode of existence” refer to the same referent?”

    First, I think you meant to say “mode of being”. In AT metaphysics the term “existence” corresponds to the latin “esse”. The term “ente”, or “being” signifies a concept that includes both existence and essence (ente includes both esse and essentia).
    And second, given what I think you are trying to say, no they do not refer to the same referent. If both terms came up in my example (they indeed do), the term “act of existence” would have a referent that is the same as the referent of the term “real”. However, the term “mode of being” would have a referent that is different from both “act of existence” and “real”. Instead, the term's referent would be the same as the second principle used to evaluate the mode of being of the term “real”. But really this is not relevant to the initial predications of the term real.

    “Of course, it changes the subject, but that is only because the subject is now a particular aspect of the referent, and certainly there is no problem using a specific term to refer to that particular aspect of the referent.”

    Correct. But again, the original term points to the referent, not to the words used to describe the principles of the original term. That is what you are trying to do and it is a no-no with univocal and analogical predication (ie. if you engage in this practice you aren't doing univocal or analogical predication).

    “How many times can I do this before I get into “trouble”?”

    Zero.

    (continued)

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  156. (continued)

    “In both (a) and (b), “good” refers to “the degree to which a being maximizes actualization of its essence, and minimize its degree of potential being”.”

    First, this is a functional definition rather than an essential definition as it focuses on what a being does rather than what it is. So I wouldn't quite say that it specifies the referent (something an essential definition would do) of the term “good”. I'm not so sure I could give an essential definition... although I know it when I see a particular example of it.

    “Anyway, your argument seems to be that there is“something” determinate between God and man, but that we cannot know what that “something” is, because of the limitations of our understanding. And since we cannot know it, it cannot be an object of thought, and thus cannot be something we can use a term to refer to, and thus cannot be “univocal” at all.

    Rather we don't fully grasp the principle in common, though we see that there is a principle in common. That we see a principle in common means that we understand somewhat what that principle is, though, not fully. We can use a term to refer to such a principle... just not univocally.

    “But in that case, then doesn’t analogy also fall apart?”

    Analogy doesn't depend upon analogical predication. I can make an analogy that uses univocal predication just as much as I can make one that involves analogical predication.

    “I mean, doesn’t analogy also depend upon our mode of apprehension, and thus if it is limited, as you say, then we cannot understand the “partly the same” part of the analogy, either.”

    I never said that analogy was limited, but rather our understanding of a being through analogical predication. Also, if “analogy” is understood the same as “comparison”, then analogy has a wider scope than analogical predication, much like identity being larger in scope than univocal predication.

    “Also, what is Aquinas' definition of "sense"?”

    Anyone want to point out a passage of his on the matter (it's late and I'm not going hunting now)? I'm not directly familiar with most of his work.

    “However, the contradiction is avoided, because potential being is accepted as an intermediate category between being and non-being, and thus something can be neither real nor unreal, which makes contradiction impossible. At the very least, potential being is very bizarre in and of itself.”

    Nice ice example. Potential being is not so bizarre when one understands that everything which is potential being must be a composite of actuality and potentiality.

    “Just as Aristotle’s potential being did not fall under being or non-being...”

    So a potential being is not a being? Then why call it a potential “being” at all? As I said, potential being includes both actuality and potentiality. Actuality, potentiality, and nothingness exhaust all possibilities—you must decide how your postulation fits with these three. Deny this and you have some contradictions to deal with.

    “I’ve ordered a few books to help me here:
    Eleonore Stump’s Aquinas
    Christopher Shields’ Aristotle
    Gregory Rocca’s Speaking the Incomprehensible God: Thomas Aquinas on the Interplay of Positive and Negative Theology”

    Good for you! Of your list, I've only heard of Stump and her book, though I haven't read it. Let me know what you find out!

    ciao,
    Michael

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  157. Michael:

    Yes, correct. Except that it really isn't changing the context since both referent and mode of being are always interrelated (you don't have one without the other in the real(AT) order). Or, if you insist that it is changing the context, that it actually matters—it doesn't.

    Formal causes and final causes are also “interrelated”, and both present in any existing being. However, they are still distinct, and thus have different referents. Say you are talking about the formal cause of an existing entity. In that context, the referent of “cause” would be the formal cause. You then shift gears to talk about the final cause of that same entity. In that new context, the referent of “cause” would be the final cause. Your argument seems to be that since the two are “interrelated”, then the referent of “cause” is the same whether one is talking about formal causes or final causes. That does not make any sense to me.

    No, incorrect. In my example the term is “real”. The referent of the term is an act of existence, a principle. The mode of being is how the referent is expressed in its existence, metaphysically (not subjective), another principle.

    So, act of existence and mode of being are different principles? Doesn’t that mean that “act of existence” and “mode of being” have different referents? And if they have the same referent, but different senses, then what accounts for the different senses?

    No matter which aspect I evaluate, referent or mode of being (I need to evaluate both), it doesn't change that the term still points to the referent. Analogical or univocal analysis requires one to evaluate the principles of a term, not the terms used to describe those principles. Simple as that. The original term points to a referent, not to the words used to describe the principles of the original term.

    But there are two different principles here, which means that the terms used for the two principles must have different referents!

    But I am saying if you try to do this, even once, you are changing the focus and thus the proper evaluation of what you originally set out to do.

    Fair enough.

    And second, given what I think you are trying to say, no they do not refer to the same referent. If both terms came up in my example (they indeed do), the term “act of existence” would have a referent that is the same as the referent of the term “real”. However, the term “mode of being” would have a referent that is different from both “act of existence” and “real”. Instead, the term's referent would be the same as the second principle used to evaluate the mode of being of the term “real”. But really this is not relevant to the initial predications of the term real.

    First, I’m glad that you have clarified that act of existence and mode of being have different referents. Thanks.

    Second, if “real” in sentences (1) and (2) refers just to act of existence and not to mode of being, then the sense of “real” in both (1) and (2) is the same, and not different. The only way that it is different is if you start to introduce mode of being, and once you have done that, you have changed the referent of “real” from act of existence to mode of being.

    In that case, then you have not shown how “real” in (1) and (2) has different senses, but the same referent. If “real” refers to act of existence, then “real” has the same sense and referent in (1) and (2), and this also holds true if “real” refers to mode of being. The only way that “real” can refer to different senses, but the same referent, is if you mix up act of existence and mode of being, which would have different senses, but only because the referents are different, as well.

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  158. First, this is a functional definition rather than an essential definition as it focuses on what a being does rather than what it is. So I wouldn't quite say that it specifies the referent (something an essential definition would do) of the term “good”. I'm not so sure I could give an essential definition... although I know it when I see a particular example of it.

    Can you give me an instance where this definition fails to capture the essence of “good”? In other words, can you come up with an example that is “good”, but that my definition does not capture?

    Rather we don't fully grasp the principle in common, though we see that there is a principle in common. That we see a principle in common means that we understand somewhat what that principle is, though, not fully. We can use a term to refer to such a principle... just not univocally.

    Then how can we say that it is the same in both analogates, if we have no idea what it is?

    Analogy doesn't depend upon analogical predication. I can make an analogy that uses univocal predication just as much as I can make one that involves analogical predication.

    Now I’m confused. How can you make an analogy based upon analogical predication without there being “something” that is the same in both analogates? And how can you say that something is the same if you have no idea what it is? And how can you know that something must be the same if you don’t know what it is? And what is the difference between “analogy” and “analogical predication” anyway?

    Nice ice example. Potential being is not so bizarre when one understands that everything which is potential being must be a composite of actuality and potentiality.

    And where is that potentiality within the actuality? What exactly is there in actuality that accounts for the potential? In reality, there is just an acorn. Where exactly is its potential to become an oak? It is really there without being really there. Reality is what is presently existing. What did exist and what will exist are not real. Potential is necessarily about the future, and thus involves non-being, because the future is not yet real. So, there is something unreal (i.e. the future end) within something real (i.e. the presently actually existing thing), and thus potential being is a combination of being and non-being. That is what is so bizarre. And furthermore, if potential being is permitted, then the reality of final causality should also be admitted, because it also (1) solves a paradox, and (2) is a combination of being and non-being.

    Good for you! Of your list, I've only heard of Stump and her book, though I haven't read it. Let me know what you find out!

    I’ll let you know. They should arrive today, but I won’t be able to get around to them until the New Year. Got a few books on the history of science to get through first. :)

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  159. Hi gents

    I've got a bunch of responses which I've kept shorter but only at the expense of post-count. Hope it's easier to follow.

    DGULLER: It exists as a final cause, which is an intermediate category of being in between actual being and potential being, and which consists of aspects of both.

    ME: If you say so. But you’ve misunderstood what Aristotle did. Non-being vs being -> non-being vs (act/potency or pure act). But the bracketed portion is being. As Michael said these are mutually excluding and, following the principle of the excluded middle, your new category must fall under one of Aristotle’s subdivisions.

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  160. DGULLER: Well, anything I say will consist of propositions being thought by a mind, and so do you expect me to defend a position by keeping silent and not thinking? And it is important to keep in mind the difference between a proposition and a state of affairs, even though in our language, they are expressed in the same way.

    ME: I don’t think the defence of some of your positions could have been any weaker if you had kept silent! Regardless, I do expect you to concede that universals, numbers, and/or propositions exist objectively, apart from the human mind. An argument for this is that some “state of affairs” (eg a mathematical truth such as the ratio of any circle’s circumference to its diameter is an irrational number) are neither material nor the mental representation of a created mind. There is no empirical proof for the example given, and it would hold true in the absence of any human mind; in fact it would remain true even in the absence of a material world. Some propositions are necessarily true.

    A survey of eight other arguments for the objective existence of forms / universals / etc can be found in Dr Feser’s TLS pages 41-45.

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  161. DGULLER: And a supporter of Parmenides can say the same thing: “Oh right, now potential being is somehow real – it’s a magical type of “entity” that can be whatever you need it to be to avoid admitting the impossibility of change”. I doubt that you would find that line of argument compelling.

    ME: As I say, I’m sure some did. At which point Aristotle demonstrated for them that the reality of potency was necessary to harmonize the data of sense (eg, change and multiplicity), with the principle of contradiction, and with the fundamental laws of reality and thought. He didn’t *just* say, “Well, what you, Parmenides, say is one answer, now you have to prove whatever fancy I can come up with wrong.” He didn’t *just* say “Well, Parmenides came up with the idea of no change – why must his be the Last Addition to ontology?” There’s your cue, dguller.

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  162. DGULLER: There is nothing necessary about it, but it is a possibility, like a divine intellect. You seem so invested in the need to have a divine intellect that you believe it to be the only possibility, but never demonstrating it to be so.

    ME: The Fifth Way does demonstrate it, your misunderstanding notwithstanding. I offered two proofs for the controversial step in the Fifth Way, but there are others. And the beauty of reasoning from First Principles and not just pulling possibilities out of your fanny is that other arguments for God’s Intelligence are mutually reinforcing. In any case the possibility you claim to have put up as an alternative is not the gamechanger you think. The problem you have is that potency cannot actualize anything else; only act can. So to the extent your new thing is doing anything, it’s doing so by virtue of actually existing and you’re back to square one

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  163. DGULLER: Propositions do depend upon an intellect to formulate them, and thus require no special ontological status, but what they represent can be real independent of an intellect.

    ME: What propositions represent can be real, but then they can also represent truths that do not depend on the existence of matter or any created mind . “The ratio of any circle’s circumference to its diameter is an irrational number” - What window should I look through to prove that?

    DGULLER: There is the proposition that “it is raining”, and then there is the state of affairs where it is raining. The former must be in a mind,

    ME: All right. So?

    DGULLER: but the latter does not.

    ME: No created mind, maybe.

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  164. DGULLER: You have not explained how my solution to the paradox of final causes is necessarily impossible, given the fact that there is a precedent to modify ontological categories to resolve paradoxes in Aristotle’s practice.

    ME: Because you haven’t explained how it’s a solution. You’ve barely given us enough to know if it’s a possibility. All you’ve said is that you’ve got a solution which isn’t real and isn’t ideal. From what I can make out of that you’ve either just ignored the problem in the first place (the end doesn’t exist in the real order so you invent something that exists in the real order in a different way?) or you’ve egregiously misunderstood the act/potency distinction (every reality except God is act/potency – it’s the act of an act/potency reality that allows the potencies in other act/potency realities to be actualized; and remember the point was to work out how something that doesn’t really exist can affect anything else.)

    Other ways in which you’re not following Aristotle’s precedent: there was no paradox to resolve (you’ve already admitted that ends in an intellect is one solution; you just don’t want it to be the only solution. That’s not a paradox.); when challenged, Aristotle did not defend his act/potency distinction by complaining, “Well, X did something new. Why can’t I?” He demonstrated that the reality of potency was necessary to harmonize the contradictions and first principles. When you do that I’ll have enough to explain how your solution is necessarily impossible or to concede the point.

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  165. DGULLER: He justified his solution by the fact that it solved a paradox, which is exactly what I have done. Your only objection is that my solution weakens the case for a divine intellect, but so what?

    ME: That’s not my objection. My objection is that you haven’t yet given us a solution.

    If I say I can make a square circle you could object I simply don’t know what I’m talking about, that I don’t understand the basic principles of the subject, and that there was no need for such a thing when we already have a bunch of circles small enough to fit any square holes in any case. If I insisted with increasing irrationality that “X had once done what other people considered impossible so why won’t you let me claim the same?” you might then just ask me to just draw the damned thing or show how it could be done. At which point I must do more than simply say, well “let’s just take a square and make it circular!”

    At the moment what you’ve written doesn’t even touch the case for a divine intellect.

    DGULLER: And I notice you did not answer my question about how God’s intellect can contain all forms, but be simple and without any parts or components. How exactly does this work? Oh? No explanation? It’s a mystery beyond human understanding? How veryGreek.

    ME: Elves put them there with magical-pixie-dust. Satisfied? No? Well, it’s a possibility! I’m just solving a paradox. Apparently you must now show me how it’s impossible.

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  166. DGULLER: Or maybe you can answer an easier question, given Thomist principles. How exactly do forms get transferred from material entities to an immaterial intellect?

    ME: I could try, but what for? How is it relevant? I can certainly point you to this article by Mortimer Adler that gives a little overview with regard to the Aristotelian and Thomistic positions on the process of knowing. Much better I can point you to Epistemology volumes I and II by our friend Peter Coffey. For a bit more colour on the subject check out Psychology: empirical and rational by Michael Maher which I’m reading at the moment. I’m sure you’ll find the answer you’re looking for.

    DGULLER: I mean, this system is so thorough and comprehensive that it leaves no stone unturned, dries every tear, and explains everything completely, right? Or maybe, like all human constructs, it has benefits and strengths, but also limitations and weaknesses, which means that it is open to revision?

    ME: Did I say this? If my tone implied it then I apologize. I don’t think Aristotle or Aquinas or anyone (Scholastic or otherwise) is infallible. The weaknesses and limitations you want us to see just don’t exist though and I’ll point that out as forcefully as I’m able.

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  167. DGULLER: I’ve ordered a few books to help me here:

    Eleonore Stump’s Aquinas

    Christopher Shields’ Aristotle

    Gregory Rocca’s Speaking the Incomprehensible God: Thomas Aquinas on the Interplay of Positive and Negative Theology

    I hope they help!

    ME: Great stuff, that’s a super list, and (like Michael) I’d love to hear what you find out and what you think of them. Can I also point you at this web page containing Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange’s REALITY – A Synthesis of Thomistic Thought ; starting from Chapter 4 and through Chapters 5, 6, and 7 you’ll find really good stuff on lots of the ground we’ve covered in this combox.

    All the best mate, and – in case we don’t speak again before - a merry Christmas to all.

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  168. Jack:

    If you say so. But you’ve misunderstood what Aristotle did. Non-being vs being -> non-being vs (act/potency or pure act). But the bracketed portion is being. As Michael said these are mutually excluding and, following the principle of the excluded middle, your new category must fall under one of Aristotle’s subdivisions.

    Here’s the problem. What is real is coextensive with what is present. The past is not real, and the future is not real. And potentiality is intrinsically related to the future. That is why there is a distinction between what is the case, and what might be the case. In other words, potential points towards a future realization of a particular state, and thus it inherently involves non-being, because the future is not real. So, you have something that is both real, because the potential is present, and not real, because it necessarily involves the future, which is not real. And thus, potency does not fit into being as purely as you suppose, but rather straddles being and non-being, and has elements of both.

    Regardless, I do expect you to concede that universals, numbers, and/or propositions exist objectively, apart from the human mind.

    Propositions, no. However, what propositions refer to often exist independently of the human mind.

    An argument for this is that some “state of affairs” (eg a mathematical truth such as the ratio of any circle’s circumference to its diameter is an irrational number) are neither material nor the mental representation of a created mind. There is no empirical proof for the example given, and it would hold true in the absence of any human mind; in fact it would remain true even in the absence of a material world. Some propositions are necessarily true.

    That just speaks to the fact that universals, numbers and propositions cannot be material. It does not speak to the issue of whether they necessarily must occur in a mind, except when they are represented by propositions. Otherwise, they are immaterial truths about different aspects of reality.

    As I say, I’m sure some did. At which point Aristotle demonstrated for them that the reality of potency was necessary to harmonize the data of sense (eg, change and multiplicity), with the principle of contradiction, and with the fundamental laws of reality and thought. He didn’t *just* say, “Well, what you, Parmenides, say is one answer, now you have to prove whatever fancy I can come up with wrong.” He didn’t *just* say “Well, Parmenides came up with the idea of no change – why must his be the Last Addition to ontology?” There’s your cue, dguller.

    You still haven’t changed the fundamental aspects of this issue. In order to justify the reality of change, Aristotle invented a new category of being, which solved the paradox of how change can be real. What is his argument for potential being that starts from nothing but the LNC? I don’t think he had one. He just assumed that our senses are reliable, and that change that they observe must be real, and then had to come up with a solution to how this is possible, which he did with the addition of potential being into his ontology.

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  169. The Fifth Way does demonstrate it, your misunderstanding notwithstanding. I offered two proofs for the controversial step in the Fifth Way, but there are others. And the beauty of reasoning from First Principles and not just pulling possibilities out of your fanny is that other arguments for God’s Intelligence are mutually reinforcing.

    First, I have offered my criticisms of your two arguments.

    Second, I would love to know the other arguments, especially those that you find quite compelling.

    Third, the fact that when one starts from the same assumptions, one ends up with the same conclusions, doesn’t say much if the assumptions are exactly what is at issue.

    In any case the possibility you claim to have put up as an alternative is not the gamechanger you think. The problem you have is that potency cannot actualize anything else; only act can. So to the extent your new thing is doing anything, it’s doing so by virtue of actually existing and you’re back to square one

    What if actual being and potential being are not dichotomous categories with clear borders, but rather have fuzzy demarcations such that there are intermediate kinds of being that have aspects of actual being and aspects of potential being, much like potential being has aspects of actual being and non-being? Perhaps ontology has grey areas, rather than being just black and white?

    What propositions represent can be real, but then they can also represent truths that do not depend on the existence of matter or any created mind . “The ratio of any circle’s circumference to its diameter is an irrational number” - What window should I look through to prove that?

    None, unless through it is a mathematical proof.

    No created mind, maybe.

    Yup. That is exactly what is at issue here.

    Because you haven’t explained how it’s a solution. You’ve barely given us enough to know if it’s a possibility. All you’ve said is that you’ve got a solution which isn’t real and isn’t ideal. From what I can make out of that you’ve either just ignored the problem in the first place (the end doesn’t exist in the real order so you invent something that exists in the real order in a different way?) or you’ve egregiously misunderstood the act/potency distinction (every reality except God is act/potency – it’s the act of an act/potency reality that allows the potencies in other act/potency realities to be actualized; and remember the point was to work out how something that doesn’t really exist can affect anything else.)

    This is a guilt by association kind of argument. If you can accept potential being as a type of being that combines aspects of actual being and non-being, then you have no grounds to reject the reality of final causes as combining aspects of actual being and potential being, except that it is both new and does not support a divine intellect, neither of which is a compelling reason to reject it.

    And since when is “real” and “ideal” the only possibilities? Again, show me a deductive argument that starts from first principles, and ends up with a divine intellect, but does not just generalize from the human capacity to make artifacts to a divine intellect. From what I can see, all your arguments presuppose the validity of this generalization, but this generalization is based upon an analogy between human intellect and divine intellect, which assumes exactly what is supposed to be proven.

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  170. If I say I can make a square circle you could object I simply don’t know what I’m talking about, that I don’t understand the basic principles of the subject, and that there was no need for such a thing when we already have a bunch of circles small enough to fit any square holes in any case. If I insisted with increasing irrationality that “X had once done what other people considered impossible so why won’t you let me claim the same?” you might then just ask me to just draw the damned thing or show how it could be done. At which point I must do more than simply say, well “let’s just take a square and make it circular!”

    Except that potential being is just as contradictory as a square circle, and yet it is an acceptable solution to a paradox. Remember, that what is real must exist in the present. That is why final causation is such a paradox, because the final cause is supposed to be in the future as an end, and that is why it is considered to be unreal. If you reject the idea that what is real must be present, then you have undercut any problem with final causes. If you accept this framework, then potential being is just as bizarre as final causality, because it is both real in the present, but also unreal, because it necessarily involves the future. So, its reality is also its unreality. If you can accept such a kind of reality, then you have no basis to consider final causality to be problematic, and if you reject such a kind of reality, then you are stuck in a paradox.

    Elves put them there with magical-pixie-dust. Satisfied? No? Well, it’s a possibility! I’m just solving a paradox. Apparently you must now show me how it’s impossible.

    Is that really your answer to how a divine intellect, which is simple and without composition of parts, can retain all forms within itself?

    I don’t think Aristotle or Aquinas or anyone (Scholastic or otherwise) is infallible. The weaknesses and limitations you want us to see just don’t exist though and I’ll point that out as forcefully as I’m able.

    What are the biggest weaknesses of Thomism, from your standpoint?

    Great stuff, that’s a super list, and (like Michael) I’d love to hear what you find out and what you think of them. Can I also point you at this web page containing Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange’s REALITY – A Synthesis of Thomistic Thought ; starting from Chapter 4 and through Chapters 5, 6, and 7 you’ll find really good stuff on lots of the ground we’ve covered in this combox.

    Thanks. I’ll look into them.

    All the best mate, and – in case we don’t speak again before - a merry Christmas to all.

    The same to you. :)

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  171. dguller,

    “Your argument seems to be that since the two [formal and final causes] are “interrelated”, then the referent of “cause” is the same whether one is talking about formal causes or final causes. That does not make any sense to me.”

    And what you say doesn't make sense to me because 1) I am not picking out formal and final causes and 2) the kind of predication being used on the word “cause” is not the subject of the original predications. At best it is terminology used to talk about the terminology used to talk about analogical or univocal predication.

    “But there are two different principles here, which means that the terms used for the two principles must have different referents!”

    So what! We aren't concerned with the kind of predication is being used in order to talk about the principles, we are only concerned with the kind of predication of the original term and evaluate (action) the term's kind of predication by examining the principles.

    But I am saying if you try to do this, even once, you are changing the focus and thus the proper evaluation of what you originally set out to do.

    “Fair enough.”

    If you concede this then I don't know what else you can say as your argument rests upon this misunderstanding.

    “Second, if “real” in sentences (1) and (2) refers just to act of existence and not to mode of being, then the sense of “real” in both (1) and (2) is the same, and not different. The only way that it is different is if you start to introduce mode of being, and once you have done that, you have changed the referent of “real” from act of existence to mode of being.”

    Mode of being is not a referent but a principle of a referent. Just because a term points to a referent and not the mode of being, doesn't mean that the mode of being isn't integral (or doesn't exist for that matter) in understanding the referent and thus in some way the original term.

    “Can you give me an instance where this definition fails to capture the essence of “good”? In other words, can you come up with an example that is “good”, but that my definition does not capture?”

    Any evaluation of your definition fails to capture the essence of goodness because it is not an essential definition. It may be true and evaluate correctly with every instance of something good, but that doesn't mean its an essential definition. Ex: 'If something laughs then it is a being endowed with intellect.' I would argue necessarily true, but laughter is not the essence of any being endowed with intellect. I do not dare try to give a counter-example to your functional definition, however.

    “Then how can we say that it is the same in both analogates, if we have no idea what it is?”

    I never said that. I said that we do not fully apprehend at the conceptual level. But there is something intelligible at the sub-conceptual level which we must understand with terms used analogically, if we are to have any understanding at all.

    (continued)

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  172. (continued)

    “And what is the difference between “analogy” and “analogical predication” anyway?”

    Analogy is in general a comparison while analogical predication is a specific type of comparison. I can have an analogy that doesn't use analogical predication. Ex: 2 : 4 :: 16 : 32.

    “In reality, there is just an acorn. Where exactly is its potential to become an oak? It is really there without being really there.”

    The potential to become an oak is really there. That the acorn is an oak is not. Your “really there” is being used with two different meanings.

    “Reality is what is presently existing. What did exist and what will exist are not real. Potential is necessarily about the future, and thus involves non-being, because the future is not yet real.”

    Sure. And if there wasn't anything presently existing there would not be a potential directed towards the future. So?

    “So, there is something unreal (i.e. the future end) within something real (i.e. the presently actually existing thing), and thus potential being is a combination of being and non-being. That is what is so bizarre.”

    You seem to be confusing the potential to be something with the state of that potential being actualized. The potential to be something really is there in the thing existing now in the present. That the potential is actualized or not is the unreal future. There's nothing bizarre.

    Sure, a potency involves the future when it is actualized or not actualized. But for the potential to be a potential, here and now, it must be apart of something that is in act. Thus, whenever you have the potentiality principle you also have the actuality principle, and necessarily so. In sum, the future is important to the exercise of a capacity or potential, but is not pertinent to evaluating the ontology of a capacity or potential here and now.

    “He just assumed that our senses are reliable...”

    If you assume otherwise you have much of modern philosophy which ultimately ends in universal skepticism or perhaps nihilism.

    “What if actual being and potential being are not dichotomous categories with clear borders...”

    Then you aren't really talking about the principles of actuality and potentiality.

    “Except that potential being is just as contradictory as a square circle, and yet it is an acceptable solution to a paradox.”

    Something which involves both aspects of being and non-being is not a contradiction, that is, unless they are involved in the exact same way. The principles of potentiality and actuality are not so involved.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  173. Michael:

    And what you say doesn't make sense to me because 1) I am not picking out formal and final causes and 2) the kind of predication being used on the word “cause” is not the subject of the original predications. At best it is terminology used to talk about the terminology used to talk about analogical or univocal predication.

    The point is that just because A and B are interrelated does not mean that they have the same referent. They do have the same referent if A and B are both part of the same class C, and you are actually talking about C rather than A and B. However, if you start talking about A or B, then they have different referents.

    So what! We aren't concerned with the kind of predication is being used in order to talk about the principles, we are only concerned with the kind of predication of the original term and evaluate (action) the term's kind of predication by examining the principles.

    Good. So, you agree that the referents of the two principles are different, which means that the referents of “act of existence” and “mode of being” are different, which means that they have different senses, as well. This means that you have not shown how a term can be used in two sentences, and have the same referent, but different senses.

    If you concede this then I don't know what else you can say as your argument rests upon this misunderstanding.

    See my above points. You tried to show how “real” in (1) and (2) have different senses, but the same referent. I don’t think that you have done so, because when “real” has the same referent, it also has the same sense, and when “real” has different senses, then it has different references, and that depends upon the context. And that means that you have not succeeded.

    Mode of being is not a referent but a principle of a referent. Just because a term points to a referent and not the mode of being, doesn't mean that the mode of being isn't integral (or doesn't exist for that matter) in understanding the referent and thus in some way the original term.

    What does “mode of being” refer to? How can something refer to something that is not a referent?

    Any evaluation of your definition fails to capture the essence of goodness because it is not an essential definition. It may be true and evaluate correctly with every instance of something good, but that doesn't mean its an essential definition. Ex: 'If something laughs then it is a being endowed with intellect.' I would argue necessarily true, but laughter is not the essence of any being endowed with intellect. I do not dare try to give a counter-example to your functional definition, however.

    First, if my definition captures all cases, then how is it not essential? How else do you define “essential” in this case, except that it captures the necessary and sufficient conditions that define all cases?

    Second, monkeys laugh, but I doubt that you will grant them the possession of intellect. And that’s why your definition is not essential, because it does not capture all cases.

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  174. I never said that. I said that we do not fully apprehend at the conceptual level. But there is something intelligible at the sub-conceptual level which we must understand with terms used analogically, if we are to have any understanding at all.

    First, isn’t the “sub-conceptual level” composed of concepts?

    Second, is it possible to understand something without applying concepts to it? And if this is impossible, then it does not make sense to talk about “understanding” a sub-conceptual level at all.

    Analogy is in general a comparison while analogical predication is a specific type of comparison. I can have an analogy that doesn't use analogical predication. Ex: 2 : 4 :: 16 : 32.

    Why is this relevant? If my arguments apply to analogy in general, then they must apply to analogical predication.

    The potential to become an oak is really there. That the acorn is an oak is not. Your “really there” is being used with two different meanings.

    Exactly. Reality only really exists in the present. The past does not exist, and the future does not exist. That is why final causality is so paradoxical, because it implies that something that does not exist (i.e. the future) can causally affect the present. If you want to agree that the future is real, then there is no longer any paradox, because something real (i.e. the future) is affecting something else that is real (i.e. the present), and then there is no need for a divine intellect at all!

    Sure. And if there wasn't anything presently existing there would not be a potential directed towards the future. So?

    Here’s the thing. This “potential directed towards the future” is necessarily directed towards non-being, because the future does not (yet) exist. And the question is how the future, which does not (yet) exist, can influence the present by serving as a direction for the present to act towards. In other words, how can non-being guide being?

    And notice that this is the same problem that we first identified with final causes. Final causes are the ends towards which actual beings are directed towards, and these ends does not exist in the present, which means that they do not exist. And, again, how does something that does not exist affect something that does?

    So, if you do not accept the validity of a future event affecting a present event, then not only should you find final causes paradoxical, then you should also find potential being paradoxical. And if you do not find potential being paradoxical, then you should not find final causes paradoxical, and if there is no problem with final causes, then you do not need an explanation for them, and thus do not need to postulate a divine intellect at all!

    Then you aren't really talking about the principles of actuality and potentiality.

    Why not? I’m still talking about atoms even if I say that they are divisible. Concepts can be revised in the face of new ideas and evidence.

    Something which involves both aspects of being and non-being is not a contradiction, that is, unless they are involved in the exact same way. The principles of potentiality and actuality are not so involved.

    The contradiction is between the following propositions:

    (1) Only something actual can affect something else actual.
    (2) The present exists.
    (3) The future does not exist.
    (4) Potential being requires that the future affect the present by restricting the possibilities presently available for a particular being to actualize.
    (5) Potential being has something that does not exist (i.e. the future) affecting something that does exist (i.e. the present).
    (6) (5) contradicts (1).

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  175. DGULLER: Here’s the problem. What is real is coextensive with what is present. The past is not real, and the future is not real. And potentiality is intrinsically related to the future. That is why there is a distinction between what is the case, and what might be the case. In other words, potential points towards a future realization of a particular state, and thus it inherently involves non-being, because the future is not real.

    ME: Wrong. Correcting (in italics) your words: potential points towards a future actualization of a particular state, and thus it inherently involves being, because the future is really potential, but not really actual

    These are basic concepts, dguller, and you have to get them straight – not just bicker that your own terminology is co-extensive when it isn’t.

    DGULLER: what propositions refer to often exist independently of the human mind.

    ME: They sure do. But why ignore the mathematical example I gave which is (like it or not) a proposition that exists independently of the human mind and of matter? It’s pretty basic moderate realism to admit the objective existence of propositions, universals, etc.

    DGULLER: That just speaks to the fact that universals, numbers and propositions cannot be material. It does not speak to the issue of whether they necessarily must occur in a mind, except when they are represented by propositions. Otherwise, they are immaterial truths about different aspects of reality.

    ME: Another misunderstanding of something basic and central to Aristotelian metaphysics – what are these “different aspects of reality” to which some mindless immaterial truths apparently refer, or in which they exist? In fact, given that you’re trying to deny Mind (where ideal Forms reside), what is an immaterial truth?

    DGULLER: Second, I would love to know the other arguments, especially those that you find quite compelling.

    ME: I would love to share them with you and have already pointed you at sources to supplement the books you’ve ordered. But until you grasp basic principles there is no point. Because I’ve no doubt you’d raise objections just as absurd as the ones you’ve raised so far.

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  176. DGULLER: Perhaps ontology has grey areas, rather than being just black and white?

    ME: It seems you’re unaware of the care taken by everyone from Aristotle down to distinguish the ideas in their arguments. Your thinking may be loose enough to run with real1 and real2 as workable distinctions, but wondering if act is not really distinct from potency (or supposing some overlap of being and non-being for no reason and with no justification) just shows your misunderstandings of basic Aristotelian thought.

    DGULLER: If you can accept potential being as a type of being that combines aspects of actual being and non-being, then you have no grounds to reject the reality of final causes as combining aspects of actual being and potential being

    ME: No one accepts potential being as combining act and non-being. Potentia is determinable being; actus is determined being. Again, this is page 1, line 1 stuff. And who is rejecting final causation? The only thing that we are denying is that a final end (such as an “oak tree”) actually exists in the real order in the present when it is not merely potentially the final end but actually something else real (in this case an “acorn”).

    Your misunderstandings aside, this seems obvious.

    DGULLER: And since when is “real” and “ideal” the only possibilities?

    ME: As far as this discussion goes, since Aristotle.

    DGULLER: Is that really your answer to how a divine intellect, which is simple and without composition of parts, can retain all forms within itself?

    ME: Yes it is, to the exact same extent that your invention of being somewhere between actual and potential (or is it being and non-being?) answers how a final end that does not yet actually exist in the real order can determine means in the here and now. In case you’re being uncharacteristically obtuse, I have mirrored your absurdities so that you see what you look like.

    DGULLER: What are the biggest weaknesses of Thomism, from your standpoint?

    ME: That it doesn’t help me predict next week’s lottery numbers. Seriously, I don’t see big weaknesses with Thomism or else I wouldn’t find it persuasive. What is this question supposed to reveal?

    DGULLER (to Michael): The contradiction is between the following propositions:

    (1) Only something actual can affect something else actual.
    (2) The present exists.
    (3) The future does not exist.
    (4) Potential being requires that the future affect the present by restricting the possibilities presently available for a particular being to actualize.
    (5) Potential being has something that does not exist (i.e. the future) affecting something that does exist (i.e. the present).
    (6) (5) contradicts (1).

    ME: I know this comment was directed to Michael but I had to address it. This kind of sloppiness flows from the very basic mistakes you’ve made in understanding Aristotelian metaphysics, and I can borrow from Wolfgang Pauli in saying that it’s “not even wrong.”

    Corrected (in italics), I hope you will see why the paradox you claim to be solving is nothing of the sort:


    (1) Only something actual can affect something else.
    (2) The present is actually real.
    (3) The future is only potentially real.
    (4) Final causation requires that an end that is not actually but potentially real affect a means inthe present by restricting the possibilities presently available for a particular being to actualize.
    (5) Final causation has something that is not yet actually real (i.e. the future) but that is actually ideal affecting something that is actually real(i.e. the present).
    (6) (5) does not contradict (1).

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  177. Jack:

    Wrong. Correcting (in italics) your words: potential points towards a future actualization of a particular state, and thus it inherently involves being, because the future is really potential, but not really actual

    Look at an acorn. It has the potential to become an oak. Where exactly is this potential present within the acorn? Nowhere. Its potential necessarily points towards a possible future state of affairs in which an oak has developed from an acorn. The current reality of potential is inextricably tied to the non-being of the future, and thus you have the activity of an actual being (i.e. an acorn) being guided and directed by something unreal (i.e. the potential to become an oak in the future).

    It is the status of this “really potential” that is at issue. How can something be really present if it is not actually real? Is the potential actually real in the present? No, because then it would be actual and not potential. Saying that it is potentially real just means that it could be actualized in the future, but what is the metaphysical status of this “could be actualized in the future”? Where exactly is the potential to become an oak actually present in an acorn? It is not present anywhere, in fact. So, how can potentiality even exist at all to limit the behavior of an actual being, if it is not actually present?

    I agree with you that potential is a legitimate category of being, but I disagree with you that it is without problematic aspects.

    They sure do. But why ignore the mathematical example I gave which is (like it or not) a proposition that exists independently of the human mind and of matter? It’s pretty basic moderate realism to admit the objective existence of propositions, universals, etc.

    I didn’t ignore it. The proposition that it is raining is different from the fact that it is raining. The latter can exist without the former. Furthermore, the proposition that 1 + 2 = 2 is different from the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. The latter can exist without the former.

    Another misunderstanding of something basic and central to Aristotelian metaphysics – what are these “different aspects of reality” to which some mindless immaterial truths apparently refer, or in which they exist? In fact, given that you’re trying to deny Mind (where ideal Forms reside), what is an immaterial truth?

    The truths of mathematics are a good example of an immaterial truth, which propositions present in a mind refer to.

    It seems you’re unaware of the care taken by everyone from Aristotle down to distinguish the ideas in their arguments. Your thinking may be loose enough to run with real1 and real2 as workable distinctions, but wondering if act is not really distinct from potency (or supposing some overlap of being and non-being for no reason and with no justification) just shows your misunderstandings of basic Aristotelian thought.

    Argument from authority … again.

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  178. No one accepts potential being as combining act and non-being. Potentia is determinable being; actus is determined being. Again, this is page 1, line 1 stuff. And who is rejecting final causation? The only thing that we are denying is that a final end (such as an “oak tree”) actually exists in the real order in the present when it is not merely potentially the final end but actually something else real (in this case an “acorn”).

    Explain to me how potentiality can be present in actuality, other than just asserting that it is. As far as I can tell, there are two possibilities here for how potentiality can exist in actuality. Either (1) an actual being is propelled from within towards an end (i.e. internal directedness), or (2) an actual being is drawn from without towards an end (i.e. external directedness). I would say that both (1) and (2) are problematic, to say the least.

    In (1), potential being would have to be actually present in order to propel the actual being towards an end, because only actual beings have causal efficacy, but then there is no such thing as potential being, but only actual being.

    In (2), a real being is drawn towards a particular end, which would mean that something not presently real, because it is only actual in the future, can causally influence something actually existing in the present, which is supposed to be impossible, because only something actual can causally influence something actual.

    In both (1) and (2), you have a violation of a key Aristotelian principle. In (1), the reality of potential being, and in (2), the principle that only actual beings in the present can have causal efficacy upon other presently existing beings.

    The only way out of this dilemma is to argue that potential being does not affect actual beings at all, but then how can potential being limit the behavior of actual beings to only what is possible? There is something constraining actual beings to behave in particular ways, and not others, and that is indicative of some degree of causal efficacy. In that case, one is stuck with the necessity of a category of being that is problematic, to say the least.

    As far as this discussion goes, since Aristotle.

    Argument from authority … again.

    Yes it is, to the exact same extent that your invention of being somewhere between actual and potential (or is it being and non-being?) answers how a final end that does not yet actually exist in the real order can determine means in the here and now. In case you’re being uncharacteristically obtuse, I have mirrored your absurdities so that you see what you look like.

    So, you have no real answer then to my question. That’s too bad, because I am genuinely interested in a Thomist answer to that issue. It seems to me to be a reductio of the simplicity of God. Oh well.

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  179. Jack:

    (2) The present is actually real.

    Agreed.

    (3) The future is only potentially real.

    Agreed, and with the implication that the future is not actually real, and thus should be causally inert with respect to the behavior of beings in the present (by (1)).

    (4) Final causation requires that an end that is not actually but potentially real affect a means in the present by restricting the possibilities presently available for a particular being to actualize.

    Agreed. But I wonder why you changed “potential being” to “final causation”. They are two aspects of a single phenomenon. After all, potential is always potential towards an end, especially a final telos, and thus potential being is necessarily interconnected to final causation in that they share the same structure.

    
(5) Final causation has something that is not yet actually real (i.e. the future) but that is actually ideal affecting something that is actually real(i.e. the present).


    First, this begs the question, as we have already discussed. One has to make an argument that the dichotomy of real versus ideal is the only two possibilities open to ontology. Simply saying that we don’t know any other way is not a good argument unless you have the further argument that our limitations are also reality’s limitations. In other words, if X is inconceivable, then X is necessarily false, which I would disagree with, because it is surely possible that what is true is beyond what is conceivable to us. I mean, there are truths about God that are inconceivable, e.g. how God became a human being while still remaining God, the Trinity, divine simplicity, and so on. In other words, epistemic limitations do not necessarily mean corresponding ontological limitations.

    Second, does the same idea also apply to potential being? In other words, does potential being also necessarily require something ideal to make potency possible at all? After all, potential being and final causation have a common underlying structure in that the former necessarily is directed towards the latter, and thus compromising one compromises both. And both involve the future, which is not actual (yet), being able to affect what is actually occurring in the present, which is supposed to be impossible, because only act can influence act. So, the question is whether Aquinas also argued that potential being required a divine intellect, and if not, then why not?

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  180. dguller,

    “Good. So, you agree that the referents of the two principles are different, which means that the referents of “act of existence” and “mode of being” are different, which means that they have different senses, as well. This means that you have not shown how a term can be used in two sentences, and have the same referent, but different senses.”

    Easy for you to say when you switch out the original term we are talking about with some other. In my example the term is “real”, not “referent” and not “mode of being”--stop changing the subject. If you can't see that you are changing the subject then I daresay this may be the end of the road for you... at least for now.

    “What does “mode of being” refer to? How can something refer to something that is not a referent?”

    I wasn't talking about the term “mode of being” but its referent or ultimate signification. And it is fairly obvious that a principle does not refer like (or at all) a term does—you said so yourself.

    “First, if my definition captures all cases, then how is it not essential? How else do you define “essential” in this case, except that it captures the necessary and sufficient conditions that define all cases?”

    That your definition always holds true (hypothetically, I am not saying I agree or disagree with your functional definition) is a far cry from it specifying something's essence. My example is sufficient, reread it once more and ponder it for a while and then ask questions if it doesn't click. I'll still be here though it will be some time before another reponse.

    “Second, monkeys laugh, but I doubt that you will grant them the possession of intellect. And that’s why your definition is not essential, because it does not capture all cases.”

    Not that I agree with your supposed counterexample, but for the sake of argument, even if it did capture all cases it would not necessarily be an essential definition.

    “First, isn’t the “sub-conceptual level” composed of concepts?”

    If we think about those principles, then yes. Though it does not mean those concepts are univocal.

    (continued)

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  181. (continued)

    “Why is this relevant? If my arguments apply to analogy in general, then they must apply to analogical predication.”

    It's relevant because it shows you don't really understand much of what we have been discussing. If anything, if your argument applies to analogy in general, it would only mean that at least one principle is common in an analogy—I already agreed with this; it seems that Aquinas would have no qualm with this either. However, saying as much says nothing about predication and language and epistemology. And thus nothing about analogical and univocal predication.

    “Exactly.”

    If you really agreed you would see the major nonsense that you are putting forth. See below.

    “Here’s the thing. This “potential directed towards the future” is necessarily directed towards non-being, because the future does not (yet) exist. And the question is how the future, which does not (yet) exist, can influence the present by serving as a direction for the present to act towards. In other words, how can non-being guide being?”

    Just because something is directed to a future state of affairs doesn't mean that this something is being directed by the future state of affairs. The latter is absurd and is not final causality at all, though you seem to think it is.

    Finally, please don't pull the authority card on Jack. It's perfectly legitimate to say one doesn't know what he's talking about when he doesn't understand Aristotle or some other historical figure's position. It's not an appeal to authority because Jack isn't trying to say those ideas are true because so-and-so said so, but only that so-and-so said such-and-such and not the nonsense that you have been saying.

    The historical positions are very much the main point of this thread as you claimed that you had an argument against a particular position put forth by a particular historical figure. I think it's fair that you should understand such a figure's position before you criticize it.

    ciao,
    Michael

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  182. Oh, and just to let you guys know, I'm going on a vacation with the family starting tomorrow, and so won't be replying to your counterpoints until late next week.

    Happy New Year!

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  183. Michael:

    Easy for you to say when you switch out the original term we are talking about with some other. In my example the term is “real”, not “referent” and not “mode of being”--stop changing the subject. If you can't see that you are changing the subject then I daresay this may be the end of the road for you... at least for now.

    You are talking about “real”, which can refer to a number of possible referents, including act of existence and mode of being. The question is whether you can have “real” have different senses, but the same referent. When “real” refers to act of existence, then it has a different sense and referent from when “real” refers to mode of being. Can we agree upon this?

    That your definition always holds true (hypothetically, I am not saying I agree or disagree with your functional definition) is a far cry from it specifying something's essence. My example is sufficient, reread it once more and ponder it for a while and then ask questions if it doesn't click. I'll still be here though it will be some time before another reponse.

    Your example is not sufficient, for the very reason that I specified, namely, that it does not cover all cases, and thus cannot be an essential definition. You admit that my definition covers all cases, and yet is not essential. How exactly is it not an essential definition then? What is your definition of “essential definition”?

    Not that I agree with your supposed counterexample, but for the sake of argument, even if it did capture all cases it would not necessarily be an essential definition.

    Again, if the definition of X captures the necessary and sufficient conditions for X, then it is an essential definition of X. The problem with your example of laughter being a necessary condition of the possession of an intellect is that there are instances where something laughs, but has no intellect. In other words, laughter is neither necessary nor sufficient for intellect, but my definition of “goodness” is both necessary and sufficient for all instances of goodness. If you want to reject it as an essential definition, then provide an instance where it fails to hold. If you cannot, then you have no grounds to reject it as an essential definition at all, except for apologetic grounds.

    It's relevant because it shows you don't really understand much of what we have been discussing. If anything, if your argument applies to analogy in general, it would only mean that at least one principle is common in an analogy—I already agreed with this; it seems that Aquinas would have no qualm with this either. However, saying as much says nothing about predication and language and epistemology. And thus nothing about analogical and univocal predication.

    The problem is how you can know what this “one principle in common” is supposed to be without univocal meaning at some point, because without knowing it in this way, you cannot have an analogy at all, because an analogy is fundamentally a linguistic tool for extending knowledge and highlighting connections rooted in common properties between diverse entities. If you assume that an analogy holds, because of the presence of a common principle, but have no idea what this principle is, then you have no real analogy, because knowledge has not been extended at all, because we are ignorant of the most important part of the analogy.

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  184. Here’s an example. I say: “X is like Y”, and you quite reasonably ask: “How is X like Y?” I reply: “I don’t know. It just is.” You say: “But what do X and Y share in common?” and I reply: “I don’t know. But it’s something.” Do you understand either X or Y any better? Has your knowledge been extended? If it has not, then you have not made a valid analogy at all, because the whole purpose of an analogy is to understand something we do not know on the basis of something that we do know. For example, saying that a photon is like a particle and like a wave builds upon our knowledge of particles and waves to extend to photons.

    Furthermore, if you say that X and Y share P in common, but you have no idea what P is, then how can you even say that they share P in common at all? To say something about P, you must at least have some conception of P, and if you lack any conception of P, then you cannot talk about P at all! That has been the issue all along.

    Just because something is directed to a future state of affairs doesn't mean that this something is being directed by the future state of affairs. The latter is absurd and is not final causality at all, though you seem to think it is.

    I have offered two possibilities of how a final cause an affect the present activity of a being, one being internal to the being in the present and the other being external to the being and in the future. There are problems with both accounts, which I explicitly mentioned in a previous comment. The problem with the internal version of potential being actually guiding the behavior of a being in the present is that potential being becomes actual being, and thus this account negates the very existence of potential being. The problem with the external version is that something non-existent in the present is actually influencing the present.

    I agree that a divine intellect would be a solution to this dilemma, because it would be actually present to guide the behavior of a being by virtue of supplying the final end that it is attempting to actualize. That is not the issue. The issue is whether it is the only possible solution to this dilemma. Sure, it is the only one that we can think of right now, but that does not mean that it is the only possible solution.

    That is why I said that the Fifth Way is basically an argument from incredulity coupled with question begging. One basically argues that there must be something actually present to guide the behavior of a being towards its final end, and since human beings use their intellect to conceive of final ends while building artifacts, then that must be how God does it, because that is the only way to do it. This inference from the human way of doing X to the only way to do X is the issue. It is obviously a fallacious argument, because you can supply lots of counterexamples where it does not work at all. That does not mean that the conclusion is false, but only unjustified.

    If you want to argue that it is very likely that a divine intellect is the answer, then that would leave the realm of metaphysical arguments, which are supposed to be necessary and not probable.

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  185. Finally, please don't pull the authority card on Jack. It's perfectly legitimate to say one doesn't know what he's talking about when he doesn't understand Aristotle or some other historical figure's position. It's not an appeal to authority because Jack isn't trying to say those ideas are true because so-and-so said so, but only that so-and-so said such-and-such and not the nonsense that you have been saying.

    That is not what Jack is saying at all. He is saying that he trusts Aristotle and Aquinas to have discovered the truth, and thus believes their propositions on the basis of this trust, which is essentially an appeal to authority. In fact, he conceded as much at December 20, 2011 4:52 PM.

    The historical positions are very much the main point of this thread as you claimed that you had an argument against a particular position put forth by a particular historical figure. I think it's fair that you should understand such a figure's position before you criticize it.

    I know that my claims are different from Aristotle’s and Aquinas’. That does not necessarily imply that I do not understand them, unless you are claiming that their rationale is so powerful that anyone who understands them would necessarily agree with them as truth. That’s quite a strong claim, especially since they were fallible human beings who likely made at least some mistakes. As Aquinas’ teacher, Albert the Great, wrote: “If Aristotle had been a god then we must think that he never made a mistake. As he is a man, he has certainly made mistakes just like the rest of us”. I’m sure you would not disagree with that proposition.

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  186. dguller, Michael, BenYachov: Happy New Year!

    Here’s my email address: Vaughn (dot) Bodie (at) gmail (dot) com ... some comments in another thread have prompted me to think: I don’t think Dr Feser is charged by Blogger for the bandwidth we’re using in this thread, but seeing as every comment is now moderated we’re almost certainly impinging his bandwidth in another sense. I’ve three quick posts and then I’m happy to receive emails from you if that’s better.

    dguller,

    Can I ask you to read the chapter on Realism and First Principles from Pere Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange’s Reality—A Synthesis of Thomistic Thought?

    There’s no point in us discussing proofs for a Personal God (or anything else) if, at any point, you can just reject something that really should be taken for granted. The chapter will also help you understand what I mean when I say the Universe is exhausted by talking of “things” and “thoughts” (or, if you prefer “mind” and “matter”, or “real” and “ideal”) – even Plato’s Third Realm of Ideal Forms (some version of which you seem inclined to accept) is a “mental” realm, as I cannot think how else I should describe “ideas”?

    Really, when you ask, “And since when is “real” and “ideal” the only possibilities?” (1757 post on Christmas Eve), or when you say, “Relations are neither things nor thoughts, but something else entirely.” , I read you asking me why material and immaterial and nothing else. And of course my answer is because the meanings of “material“ and “immaterial” tell us that if it’s not one, it’s the other. I can see that my associations aren’t obvious and apologize for not being clearer, though your objections on this point have been sort of empty.

    You say you don’t know what ontological status truths such as those of relations, or mathematics, might have, and suppose that they’re simply “immaterial” but not necessarily “mental”; but then how could we know them? Is there something we can detect with material means that isn’t “real” or something we can come to know intellectually that isn’t a “thought”? For Aquinas, following Aristotle, immateriality is the root of knowledge.

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  187. dguller,

    These responses of yours were addressed to Michael but I’d like to comment:

    DGULLER: Here’s an example. I say: “X is like Y”, and you quite reasonably ask: “How is X like Y?” I reply: “I don’t know. It just is.” You say: “But what do X and Y share in common?” and I reply: “I don’t know. But it’s something.”

    ME: Modify your example so that in response to the question “How is X like Y?” you reply, “There is no real thing that X and Y share in common, but I can conceive of a relation between the two objects that is neither a univocal participation in a common concept, nor merely equivocal” remembering that a term is univocal iff its signification is precisely the same in regard of all the subjects of which it is predicated.

    A pillar of the community need not be supporting a society made of stone against the force of gravity for you to understand more about the man so described.

    DGULLER: That is not what Jack is saying at all. He is saying that he trusts Aristotle and Aquinas to have discovered the truth, and thus believes their propositions on the basis of this trust, which is essentially an appeal to authority. In fact, he conceded as much at December 20, 2011 4:52 PM.

    ME: Sure I copped to the ‘appeal to authority’ charge because I don’t think it’s a crime. But I think you’ve mischaracterized what I did say:

    Remember this started with you defending yourself like this, “First, I am simply pointing out a fallacy in Aquinas’ argument. Surely, this does not “impute stupidity or dishonesty” in him, but only refers to his all-to-human capacity to have made a mistake in his arguments.

    A summary of my responses to this: you haven’t in any of your posts shown that final causation is possible in any other way, you’ve complained about what you see as question-begging and an argument from incredulity . This is not “pointing out a fallacy” *unless* you are asking me to believe that not only am I wrong in not being able to see how you have defeated the argument, but (more importantly) so were great thinkers from Aristotle to Feser inclusive who also haven’t seen what, if you’re correct, is an *obvious* flaw (well obviously those who came before Aquinas wouldn’t have noticed flaws in the Fifth Way, but when Aristotle, for example, defined God as “thought of thought” or “understanding of understanding” he is, again if you’re correct, making the same mistake).

    An appeal to authority is only an informal fallacy and simply pointing out “You’re weighting that guy’s testimony because he’s an expert in the field” says what exactly? In fact, it is reasonable that we incline towards more faith in the accuracy and sincerity of those who have demonstrably earned it.

    You’ve failed to show the authorities’ arguments to be misleading, inappropriate, irrelevant, or questionable – my appeal to them was probably unnecessary and that I do concede. On the other hand we could all do with the occasional reminder to humility.

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  188. dguller

    With regards to your question about “how God’s intellect can contain all forms, but be simple and without any parts or components” I’m no theologian and I don’t know the answer but it doesn’t seem radically insoluble; God is the proper ‘object’ of His Intellect, and in a similar way that the persons of the Trinity are not essential differences , He is in a sense all forms while the Forms finite, created minds apprehend are different aspects of the same Essence. When Aristotle says, of knowledge, that the soul in a way becomes all things, I conceive of a potential knower receiving the form of the object known; but God’s Knowledge actually is all things, an All-Form.

    I imagine Michael or BenYachov could give you a better answer but you could always seek out (dare I say) more authoritative answers to your question in the books on your reading list and the links you’ve been given in this thread.

    Anyway the stuff about elves and fairy-dust wasn’t a serious answer but a cheap shot to illustrate how badly you’d abused the Scholastic adage of making a distinction when you meet a contradiction. I regret making it, but I maintain your ‘potential-potential’ is no distinction (it’s a nonsense akin to elves and fairy-dust), and there was no contradiction to justify you making it.

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  189. dguller,

    Welcome back.

    “You are talking about “real”, which can refer to a number of possible referents, including act of existence and mode of being.”

    No. The word “real” doesn't refer to a mode of being. The referent the word refers to has a mode of being.

    “When “real” refers to act of existence, then it has a different sense and referent from when “real” refers to mode of being. Can we agree upon this?”

    Yes, we can agree that when we have two different referents, it is possible that the senses are different (they might be the same as well). The problem is that we do not have two different referents at all. There is only one referent. Any attempt to get another one in there is changing the subject of what we are looking at.

    “You admit that my definition covers all cases, and yet is not essential. How exactly is it not an essential definition then? What is your definition of “essential definition”?”

    I'll allow that your definition covers all cases for the sake of argument. This isn't a definition of essential definition, but it may help: What in your definition told us what goodness is, rather than when it is present?

    “The problem is how you can know what this “one principle in common” is supposed to be without univocal meaning at some point...”

    When I say that both predications have the same principle in common, namely the referent, I am not analyzing my language in this sentence—to do so is to change the subject of what we are analyzing. When I say “both predications have one principle in common” I am using those terms in their usual meaning. But there is no univocality until you have at least two predications to compare; I am not comparing the meaning of two predications in this phrase.

    (continued)

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  190. (continued)

    “Do you understand either X or Y any better? Has your knowledge been extended?”

    Like I said, analogical predication, though a kind of comparison, isn't the same as a normal analogy. It's used to compare how our linguistic tools are used, not tell us about the essence of the referent. Though, once we understand how our linguistic tools are being used, we might better understand the essence of the ultimate signification.

    “Furthermore, if you say that X and Y share P in common, but you have no idea what P is, then how can you even say that they share P in common at all? To say something about P, you must at least have some conception of P, and if you lack any conception of P, then you cannot talk about P at all! That has been the issue all along.”

    P in this case is the referent principle, X and Y are the two different predications of a single term. Analyzing the function of the term in both sentences tells me that the term in both predications has a common referent. That doesn't mean that I am always able to fully apprehend the entire meaning of the predication.

    “The problem with the internal version of potential being actually guiding the behavior of a being in the present is that potential being becomes actual being, and thus this account negates the very existence of potential being. The problem with the external version is that something non-existent in the present is actually influencing the present.”

    You aren't using the terminology correctly. It seems to me you are using the principle of potentiality as interchangeable with potential being. I don't think they are the same. I want to check how potentiality and actuality and potential being are all related; I forget exactly where it was spelled out beautifully... either Copleston's Aquinas or Feser's, or somewhere else... Copleston's History?'

    I'm game with email, though I don't know how much more I can really contribute as I've said all of what I know on analogical predication. My email it is my last name followed by my first name with no underscore or period inbetween at the famous gmail. If you can't get it just let me know.

    I intend to be lazy, so if you move to email, cc me in.

    Ciao,
    Michael Peterson

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  191. Jack:

    You say you don’t know what ontological status truths such as those of relations, or mathematics, might have, and suppose that they’re simply “immaterial” but not necessarily “mental”; but then how could we know them? Is there something we can detect with material means that isn’t “real” or something we can come to know intellectually that isn’t a “thought”? For Aquinas, following Aristotle, immateriality is the root of knowledge.

    Well, once we know something it is necessarily mental and immaterial, but before we know something immaterial, then it is only immaterial and not mental. You seem to imply that the immaterial and the mental are essentially the same thing whereas I think that the mental is a subset of the immaterial. Why do you think that the immaterial is necessarily mental?

    Modify your example so that in response to the question “How is X like Y?” you reply, “There is no real thing that X and Y share in common, but I can conceive of a relation between the two objects that is neither a univocal participation in a common concept, nor merely equivocal” remembering that a term is univocal iff its signification is precisely the same in regard of all the subjects of which it is predicated.

    I don’t think that this solves the problem, because you are just asserting what needs to be demonstrated. Michael and I both agree that in order for any analogy to be possible, there must be a shared “something” between two things being compared, and the question is whether you can still have a valid analogy even if this shared “something” cannot be understood or known at any level of analysis.

    A pillar of the community need not be supporting a society made of stone against the force of gravity for you to understand more about the man so described.

    But “preventing something from collapsing” is a common property that is shared. Whether that prevention occurs due to physical forces, intellectual forces, emotional forces, or any other forces is what differentiates the two pillars, but they share a common property nonetheless. And this again demonstrates that any analogy must ultimately be reducible to a common univocal property (broadly defined).

    you haven’t in any of your posts shown that final causation is possible in any other way, you’ve complained about what you see as question-begging and an argument from incredulity .

    I don’t have to offer any alternatives to how final causation is possible to conclude that your argument is fallacious. You are generalizing from the human capacity to hold future plans in the mind while building artifacts to this being a universal and necessary means of achieving this end. There is no way to demonstrate this deductively, and I welcome you to try. All you can show is that there must be something presently actual to guide the process, but whether that “something” necessarily must be an intellect is an inductive argument from human beings, and thus not a metaphysical demonstration at all. If you want to argue that it is likely that a divine intellect is behind final causation, then that is worth considering, but then you must admit that the Fifth Way is a probabilistic argument and not a metaphysical demonstration.

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  192. This is not “pointing out a fallacy” *unless* you are asking me to believe that not only am I wrong in not being able to see how you have defeated the argument, but (more importantly) so were great thinkers from Aristotle to Feser inclusive who also haven’t seen what, if you’re correct, is an *obvious* flaw (well obviously those who came before Aquinas wouldn’t have noticed flaws in the Fifth Way, but when Aristotle, for example, defined God as “thought of thought” or “understanding of understanding” he is, again if you’re correct, making the same mistake).

    Again, just because great thinkers agree upon the truth of a proposition does not mean that it is actually true. The issue is the evidence and reasons for the proposition in question. Rather than bring in what great thinkers said, why not just provide their arguments and proof for the issue at hand? In other words, show how you go from “the only way that we can conceive of the possibility of final causation is if an intellect is involved” to “the only possible way is for an intellect to be involved”. You would have to support the intermediate premise that if X is inconceivable to human beings, then X is necessarily false. There are many examples where this is true, such as in logic and mathematics, but there are also many examples where this is untrue, such as in the history of science and philosophy. So, it is not a reliable premise at all, if sometimes it is true, and sometimes it is false. And without it, your argument cannot be deductive, and thus cannot be metaphysical.

    With regards to your question about “how God’s intellect can contain all forms, but be simple and without any parts or components” I’m no theologian and I don’t know the answer but it doesn’t seem radically insoluble; God is the proper ‘object’ of His Intellect, and in a similar way that the persons of the Trinity are not essential differences , He is in a sense all forms while the Forms finite, created minds apprehend are different aspects of the same Essence. When Aristotle says, of knowledge, that the soul in a way becomes all things, I conceive of a potential knower receiving the form of the object known; but God’s Knowledge actually is all things, an All-Form.

    Here’s my problem with that answer. How can only apprehend different aspects of X if X has no parts? What exactly is different if X is the same through and through? In order for X to have appear differently from different perspectives, it must have asymmetries, and that would imply some parts of X having some properties, and other parts of X having other properties, and thus X would have to have parts. Take a sphere. It looks exactly the same no matter how you look at it, because it is perfectly symmetrical. Take a cylinder. It looks like a circle from the top and bottom, but like a rectangle from the sides. It is asymmetrical, because it is basically composed of two circles and parallel lines connecting the circumferences. In other words, it has parts. If you eliminate parts, then you eliminate differences, and thus if God is simple, then multiplicity cannot be contained within his Essence, because that multiplicity must have parts.

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  193. Michael:

    No. The word “real” doesn't refer to a mode of being. The referent the word refers to has a mode of being.

    What is the referent of “real” in (1) and (2)?

    Yes, we can agree that when we have two different referents, it is possible that the senses are different (they might be the same as well). The problem is that we do not have two different referents at all. There is only one referent. Any attempt to get another one in there is changing the subject of what we are looking at.

    Let’s return to your examples:

    (1) The dog is real.
    (2) The concept of a dog is real.

    You wrote that “real” in (1) and (2) has the same referent, i.e. an act of existence. You then stated that “real” in (1) and (2) has different senses, because the mode of being differs in (1) and (2) between a material mode of being in (1) and an immaterial mode of being in (2). But notice what you did there. You stopped talking just about an act of existence being the referent of “real”, and changed the subject (or as I put it initially, the context) from talking about act of existence to mode of being, and thus the referent of “real” has also changed from act of existence to mode of being in the next context. Thus, the different senses that you described are solely due to your changing the subject, and thus changing the referent.

    I'll allow that your definition covers all cases for the sake of argument. This isn't a definition of essential definition, but it may help: What in your definition told us what goodness is, rather than when it is present?

    Goodness of X is defined as the degree to which X’s final cause is actualized. That is what “goodness” is. What else do you want? A square is a geometric shape composed of four lines of the same length, connected end to end at right angles. That is what a square is. What sense is there to say that I have only said when a square is present rather than what a square is. Again, what else do you want?

    When I say that both predications have the same principle in common, namely the referent, I am not analyzing my language in this sentence—to do so is to change the subject of what we are analyzing. When I say “both predications have one principle in common” I am using those terms in their usual meaning. But there is no univocality until you have at least two predications to compare; I am not comparing the meaning of two predications in this phrase.

    But there are two predications. You say, “both predications”, which implies the presence of two predications. Otherwise, what does “both” mean? So, there are two predications, and there is a common principle that is shared between them, and thus the context is appropriate for whether or not this common principle must be understood univocally when compared between two predications. I contend that it must be, at some level of analysis, or else everything is fuzzy and indeterminate, and thus we cannot be said to know anything at all.

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  194. Like I said, analogical predication, though a kind of comparison, isn't the same as a normal analogy. It's used to compare how our linguistic tools are used, not tell us about the essence of the referent. Though, once we understand how our linguistic tools are being used, we might better understand the essence of the ultimate signification.

    This just seems like a non sequiter to me. We are talking about the referent, and thus linguistic tools necessarily must be part of the equation, because we are using language to refer to something in reality, and to try to understand it by comparing it to something else that we believe we understand better. And again, when we are talking about X by comparing it to Y, then the question of univocality is appropriate when applied to the shared principle between X and Y.

    P in this case is the referent principle, X and Y are the two different predications of a single term. Analyzing the function of the term in both sentences tells me that the term in both predications has a common referent. That doesn't mean that I am always able to fully apprehend the entire meaning of the predication.

    You don’t have to “fully apprehend the entire meaning of the predication”. However, you should at least partially apprehend some of the meaning, and that part must not be fuzzy or indeterminate, but rather by univocal and determinate when talking about the shared principle between X and Y. Again, there must be something about the referent principle that is identical between X and Y, and we must be able to properly understand at least part of that referent principle. And the part that we do understand can be construed as being the underlying foundation between the univocal meaning between the single term applied to both X and Y.

    You aren't using the terminology correctly. It seems to me you are using the principle of potentiality as interchangeable with potential being. I don't think they are the same. I want to check how potentiality and actuality and potential being are all related; I forget exactly where it was spelled out beautifully... either Copleston's Aquinas or Feser's, or somewhere else... Copleston's History?'

    My understanding is that potential being and potentiality are the same thing. They both refer to something that is not actually present, but that could be present in the future. And that means that my terminology is fine, and my arguments stand, and potential being is problematic, to say the least.

    Incidentally, another Thomist idea that I’ve recently reconsidered and found to be wanting is his identification of goodness with being. He argues that the more an entity conforms to its essence in reality, the more good it is, which is fine, but he also argues that it must have more being than another entity that conforms less with its essence. I don’t see why this follows at all. After all, something either exists or it does not exist. It does not make sense to say that something exists more than something else that also exists. Sure, you can say that one thing is more good than the other in terms of more closely conforming to an ideal, but I don’t see how this implies that one thing has more reality than another, as if being is some kind of stuff that is quantifiable and exists in degrees.

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  195. Michael:

    And here is another way of looking at things.

    Say you have a term T that is used in two sentences (1) and (2), and that T refers to R in both sentences. The next step would be to show that although T refers to R in both (1) and (2), that T has sense S1 in (1) and sense S2 in (2). My contention is that the reason why S1 and S2 are different, despite a common R, is that from different perspectives, there are aspects of R that are perceived in one perspective that are different from aspects of R that are perceived in another perspective.

    Take your “real” example. “Real” refers to an act of existence, whether material or immaterial. In (1), “real” refers to a material act of existence, and in (2), “real” refers to an immaterial act of existence. My contention is that when you are only talking about an act of existence, then mode of being plays no role at all, and thus there is a single sense and referent, because the perspective is only of something existing in the sense of not being non-being, i.e. act of existence. However, the different senses come in when you bring different modes of being into the equation, and once you have done that, then you have changed the perspective and context to not just act of existence, but also mode of being. And once you have done that, you have changed the referent. Why? Because “real” refers not just to act of existence, but to either act of existence in a material mode of being or act of existence in an immaterial mode of being, and these are different referents, and that is why there are two senses.

    You seem to argue that act of existence is the same as act of existence in a particular mode of being when they clearly are different. Sure, they are related, because anything that exists will manifest itself in a particular mode of being, but just because they are necessarily interconnected does not mean that they are coextensive and have the same referent. Your own example above of laughter and intellect was supposed to show this very idea, i.e. that just because two things are related does not mean that they reduce to the same thing, and thus you implicitly agree with it. In fact, once you start including mode of being to act of existence, then you are adding information, and once you have done that, you have changed the referent from just R to R plus extra X, even if X is necessarily related to R. Addition is necessarily related to subtraction, but they are different processes, for example.

    That is why I continue to believe that you have not shown how the same term can be used in two sentences, and have the same referent, but different senses. And remember, the whole reason why you have to show this is because this would undermine my argument about analogy, because I am arguing that all analogies between two terms must ultimately reduce to univocal predication, and that means the same term, the same sense, and the same referent in both propositions. You are trying to demonstrate a counter-example to this claim, and thus far, have come short.

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  196. dguller,

    “Michael and I both agree that in order for any analogy to be possible, there must be a shared “something” between two things being compared...”

    Yes.

    “...and the question is whether you can still have a valid analogy even if this shared “something” cannot be understood or known at any level of analysis.”

    No. In analogical predication that common something is a principle... one knows this.

    “What is the referent of “real” in (1) and (2)?”

    An act of existence. Note, I do not mean “act of existence” but instead act of existence. The referent is not another term but a principle. We just don't speak about words that refer to other words ad infinitum; there are realities apart from the words we use.

    “You wrote that “real” in (1) and (2) has the same referent, i.e. an act of existence. You then stated that “real” in (1) and (2) has different senses, because the mode of being differs in (1) and (2) between a material mode of being in (1) and an immaterial mode of being in (2). But notice what you did there. You stopped talking just about an act of existence being the referent of “real”, and changed the subject (or as I put it initially, the context) from talking about act of existence to mode of being, and thus the referent of “real” has also changed from act of existence to mode of being in the next context. Thus, the different senses that you described are solely due to your changing the subject, and thus changing the referent.”

    First, I did change the “subject” (different meaning than what follows) from talking about the act of existence (subject) to the act of existence's mode of being (subject's modification). Even so, the referent never changes and is still an act of existence. I think you are still treating the referent as a term instead of a principle.
    Second, if I did say material and immaterial mode of being, I'm not so sure that would be the best way (or even correct) to categorize them. If I am not mistaken, it would be better to say that the mode of being of the referent in (1) is substantial and in (2) it is according to reason.

    “Goodness of X is defined as the degree to which X’s final cause is actualized.”

    For the sake of brevity and staying on track I'm dropping this. All in all, it's not a bad definition, especially for a budding Aristotelian as yourself :).

    “But there are two predications. You say, “both predications”, which implies the presence of two predications. Otherwise, what does “both” mean? So, there are two predications, and there is a common principle that is shared between them, and thus the context is appropriate for whether or not this common principle must be understood univocally when compared between two predications. I contend that it must be, at some level of analysis, or else everything is fuzzy and indeterminate, and thus we cannot be said to know anything at all.”

    Yes, there are two predications. And yes, there is a common principle between them. But the common principle is not a term and is not being compared (both conditions would have to be true to attribute univocality or analogicality). Instead, it is the meaning of the common term that is being compared.

    “You don’t have to “fully apprehend the entire meaning of the predication”. However, you should at least partially apprehend some of the meaning, and that part must not be fuzzy or indeterminate, but rather by univocal and determinate when talking about the shared principle between X and Y.”

    I do apprehend some of the meaning, that the referent-principle is identical in both predications. But in order for this principle to be univocal or analogical it would a) have to be a term, and b) it would have to be the subject of comparison—it is neither.

    (continued)

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  197. (continued)

    “My understanding is that potential being and potentiality are the same thing.”

    Then let my comments be a warning to you, that you will probably come across this difference in understanding in your readings.

    “After all, something either exists or it does not exist. It does not make sense to say that something exists more than something else that also exists.”

    In terms of first actuality of course not. In terms of second actuality it does make sense. In other words, in terms of formal causality of course not. In terms of final causality it does make sense.

    “My contention is that the reason why S1 and S2 are different, despite a common R, is that from different perspectives, there are aspects of R that are perceived in one perspective that are different from aspects of R that are perceived in another perspective.”

    I understand your contention well. I think I've latched onto your position many posts ago and haven't needed to revise my understanding much. But to understand this stuff you have to be more familiar with substance and accident and analogy of being. Think of R in both cases as being a substance. Substances can undergo different modifications to become more determined. Transitioning to analogical predication, in each case R is modified by a different mode of being which together gives T a different sense. It isn't that the overall sense (or determined substance) is the same in each and we only look at different aspects which gives us different senses. It is that the mode of being really is different which makes the combined unity of referent and mode of being different in both cases, thus making the sense different.

    “You seem to argue that act of existence is the same as act of existence in a particular mode of being when they clearly are different.”

    They are both the same and different as substance is related to a more fully determined substance (analogy of being, anyone?).

    “And remember, the whole reason why you have to show this is because this would undermine my argument about analogy, because I am arguing that all analogies between two terms must ultimately reduce to univocal predication, and that means the same term, the same sense, and the same referent in both propositions. You are trying to demonstrate a counter-example to this claim, and thus far, have come short.”

    The kicker is in “ultimately reduce”, so far, it is nothing short of nonsense. Try to concretely follow your process of “ultimately reducing” and you'll find that you are turning a principle into a term and trying to compare it where there is no comparison. You're trying to steal the center stage from the original comparison of predications—analogicality or univocality will have none of it.

    If you'd like to continue this discussion please do email as I won't comment on this thread anymore. If you'd like the last word on this thread, then go ahead and do so, just email me (and whoever else... at least Jack) afterwards and we can go from there. If you'd like.

    All in all, it's been a decent discussion and I have learned a lot. Thank you to everyone. Especially to the persistent (but only the humbly persistent, right?).

    Ciao,
    Michael

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